Ask HN: What are well-paying alternative jobs to being a software developer?
I have been a software developer for the past 11 years and have mostly enjoyed it. Lately I have been so burnt out and most days dread waking up. My question is what are some other jobs that pay well (I am the provider of the family)? I have some saving and could take time off to see if that helps things out but currently I feel like a new career might be the real solution.
81 comments
Technical/consultative sales. The kind where customers come to you and are looking for advice/solutions, not the kind where you’re cold calling or fighting for leads.
Sales professions get a bad rap and rightfully so in some cases. However, if you find the right role, it’s incredibly rewarding to help customers solve problems, beat out competition, and have a measurable metric (money) to determine your level of success/contribution (or vice versa).
That last sentence is a big part of why people get burnt out, as in my opinion. It’s also something very difficult to measure in software engineering and attempts to do so (e.g., number of commits, lines of code, frequency, etc.) are nebulous measures. They also are useless with regards to determining if the business itself is successful/what your contribution to that success is.
Sales professions get a bad rap and rightfully so in some cases. However, if you find the right role, it’s incredibly rewarding to help customers solve problems, beat out competition, and have a measurable metric (money) to determine your level of success/contribution (or vice versa).
That last sentence is a big part of why people get burnt out, as in my opinion. It’s also something very difficult to measure in software engineering and attempts to do so (e.g., number of commits, lines of code, frequency, etc.) are nebulous measures. They also are useless with regards to determining if the business itself is successful/what your contribution to that success is.
Where do you find these jobs? Everything I see seems to require sales experience, which being a dev I do not have.
I looked back through your comments and noted you posted a similar Ask HN a couple months back... look if you are a CTO and have a reasonable network (or can quickly build a network) there are plenty of companies that would take you in a sales / pre-sales engineering type capacity on the basis that you:
a) presumably understand tech / can learn quickly b) will have street cred from your past experiences c) will presumably bring some kind of network / rolodex with you
So, don't stress - if you can put a confident foot forward, you probably have more going than you realize. It's just a matter of how you sell it to a future employer.
a) presumably understand tech / can learn quickly b) will have street cred from your past experiences c) will presumably bring some kind of network / rolodex with you
So, don't stress - if you can put a confident foot forward, you probably have more going than you realize. It's just a matter of how you sell it to a future employer.
The first job I was offered was a sales engineer role. The interviewer said sales was easy. Understanding the product (oscilloscopes) was not and required at least a degree. The target market didn't care if you were charismatic, they just wanted the right to for the job.
There's plenty of highly technical things from databases to Jira that appreciate dev experience more than sales experience.
There's plenty of highly technical things from databases to Jira that appreciate dev experience more than sales experience.
Look for companies on the smaller to mid size businesses that do IT services consulting. Companies and the expectations of sales on the product side are much different from what I have seen (or enjoy).
I took 8 months off fishing in the ocean, and never could really look that code in the eye again.
After that, I found it helps to move between teams and projects often. I last about 1-3 years with overlapping contracting jobs. Pays well, about $30 an hour on average, for as many hours as I want.
Honestly, I'm still edging the ~buildout~burnout vortex, so when I start to feel the first tendrils of that morning-sickness, I just let clients know that their number is up and that although I'll give them some time, they need to replace me.
It's happened that doing that in slack revitalized the whole workspace for a few more months.
edit: I neglect to mention, after the Great Rest my wife and I started serially travelling... so work is something I snatch time for, instead of "waking up to the grind". Covid put a pause on that, but it's in the air!
After that, I found it helps to move between teams and projects often. I last about 1-3 years with overlapping contracting jobs. Pays well, about $30 an hour on average, for as many hours as I want.
Honestly, I'm still edging the ~buildout~burnout vortex, so when I start to feel the first tendrils of that morning-sickness, I just let clients know that their number is up and that although I'll give them some time, they need to replace me.
It's happened that doing that in slack revitalized the whole workspace for a few more months.
edit: I neglect to mention, after the Great Rest my wife and I started serially travelling... so work is something I snatch time for, instead of "waking up to the grind". Covid put a pause on that, but it's in the air!
Pays well, about $30 an hour on average, for as many hours as I want
What country are you in? Around here, interns still in college can earn more than that.
What country are you in? Around here, interns still in college can earn more than that.
I travel serially :) After covid settles a bit, I'll continue trawling south america, until then new zealand, who knows.
There are often jobs that pay more, but they're either the fixed-price ones, or have fewer hours.
There are often jobs that pay more, but they're either the fixed-price ones, or have fewer hours.
Do you live in a particularly expensive area?
Yes, the San Francisco Bay Area... which is not only expensive to live in, but software engineers are in high demand and well paid. But pretty much anywhere in the USA, $30 is not high pay for a software engineer.
I did finally cave, for some "easy money", and backslid into a job with that same system (which has evolved in really nice ways since then).
I might have to give the deposit back if I can't start soon :)
I might have to give the deposit back if I can't start soon :)
Are you fishing with a boat? I’m interested to read your blog if you have one.
This is by far the longest I have ever been with a company. I am rolling on 7 years at the moment. Part of me thinks that time off and a new company could be the answer but it's hard to know.
Well you knnow, after all this time you can find a place to "coast" with your skills.
Example, I've always been a bit put off by the plethora of syntaxes and frameworks in javascript, and I lawnmowered my toes off with angular one fine july, but recently discovered svelte-kit.
It's a cinch, a few practice projects, a few paid ones, and one upwork refund later, I'm getting quite confident in my abilities to turn out decent stuff fast.
And the "fast" is the most important thing, with my new found impatience for not being thirty anymore.
Example, I've always been a bit put off by the plethora of syntaxes and frameworks in javascript, and I lawnmowered my toes off with angular one fine july, but recently discovered svelte-kit.
It's a cinch, a few practice projects, a few paid ones, and one upwork refund later, I'm getting quite confident in my abilities to turn out decent stuff fast.
And the "fast" is the most important thing, with my new found impatience for not being thirty anymore.
That's an incredibly long time!
Engineering manager is probably the easiest pivot. It's a very different skillset from software engineering (more people interaction, more organization, less creativity and logic) that some people will love and others will hate, but you get to use your previous experience and there's often a pay bump and additional job security.
Also consider trades like carpenter or electrician. Many software engineers also like this type of work because it involves building & fixing stuff, but it's more tangible, easy to disconnect from when you're not working, and requires less abstract thought. It still pays very well, though it can be hard on your body.
Also consider trades like carpenter or electrician. Many software engineers also like this type of work because it involves building & fixing stuff, but it's more tangible, easy to disconnect from when you're not working, and requires less abstract thought. It still pays very well, though it can be hard on your body.
Serious question: in general, does being a manager make you more likely to get fired or less? Heuristically I think "more likely" because why fire the front line workers doing the work when you can fire middle managers. However; I'm sure this thinking is missing quite a few important details.
Maybe having direct access to work politics provides an advantage? Maybe a manager is able to sacrifice others to avoid being fired themselves? Maybe taking credit and offloading blame is the name of the game?
Thanks in advance for any consideration of this question!
Maybe having direct access to work politics provides an advantage? Maybe a manager is able to sacrifice others to avoid being fired themselves? Maybe taking credit and offloading blame is the name of the game?
Thanks in advance for any consideration of this question!
I'm not the person you originally replied to, but just to give a bit of perspective as an EM myself: I think this depends a lot on the person and the team. One part of the gig is just being an effective project manager, and those skills are somewhat more objectively measured.
Much more subtle is the relationship you have with the team you're leading. If you have a culture/vibe of mutual trust and respect, and know when the manager helps ICs versus when ICs help the manager, then the line is blurred, and the team kind of sinks or swims together. You're all playing on the same team, and your role is to some extent a metaphor of the team/product as a whole. What is a lead singer without a band, or vise versa?
If you foster an adversarial relationship, or an overly top-down, bossy kind of vibe, that schism between you and your team can devolve into something that won't withstand the downturns. Bad managers and situations lead to finger pointing and nastiness. Who gets canned in that scenario? Depends on the company and the relationship each person has with the folks up the ladder. But before this kind of situation has come to pass, there should have been some red flags raised. As a manager, if you don't/can't get along with your team, you should find a different team to manage, because you can't ever be effective without their support.
Much more subtle is the relationship you have with the team you're leading. If you have a culture/vibe of mutual trust and respect, and know when the manager helps ICs versus when ICs help the manager, then the line is blurred, and the team kind of sinks or swims together. You're all playing on the same team, and your role is to some extent a metaphor of the team/product as a whole. What is a lead singer without a band, or vise versa?
If you foster an adversarial relationship, or an overly top-down, bossy kind of vibe, that schism between you and your team can devolve into something that won't withstand the downturns. Bad managers and situations lead to finger pointing and nastiness. Who gets canned in that scenario? Depends on the company and the relationship each person has with the folks up the ladder. But before this kind of situation has come to pass, there should have been some red flags raised. As a manager, if you don't/can't get along with your team, you should find a different team to manage, because you can't ever be effective without their support.
Firing (due poor economics) is usually the result of bad management. A healthy company won’t have any need to fire an IC or manager, at least not because of economical reasons. I‘ve been in extremely stable companies (+500 employees) where no one has been fired for decades. People usually just quit when they don’t see career advancement or better opportunities. No need for an Up-or-out or bottom-10% strategy you sometimes see in big consultancies to have a healthy workforce.
I've survived many rounds of layoffs as long as I have (decades) by refusing all attempts to move me into management. It is always the middle managers that get the boot during layoffs. I have almost never seen developers get laid off (at least not as part of mass layoffs, usually they are laid off because they are plain bad).
You have experienced a certain amount of luck though. I have seen hugely talented teams get fired over a company pivot in direction. The last lot where I knew someone personally , were the WASM folks at mozilla.
Usually they are laid off because they are plain bad
Or because their managers are bad, or the company is rife with politics.
Or because their managers are bad, or the company is rife with politics.
Not in my experience. The most recent one was a developer who joined every standup from the ski slopes, when asked to work on a particular task responded with "I'd rather not work on that, can you give me something easier?", and failed to ever actually work on anything. We still had to go through the whole drawn out process of working on a performance improvement plan with them. They simply didn't care.
I don't dispute the underperfomers are the typical case. But I've seen plenty of glaring exceptions. The point is: things aren't always what they seem. And we can't automatically assume that the people who make these decisions are making the right decisions, or even know what's happening under their noses.
BTW if they put the guy on PIP then that basically means they were in the process of firing him already. So if they called it a "layoff" that was for cosmetic purposes.
BTW if they put the guy on PIP then that basically means they were in the process of firing him already. So if they called it a "layoff" that was for cosmetic purposes.
As an (ex)EM, I don't think the likelihood of a first-level manager getting fired is all that different. What is different is the timeline - it takes longer to see whether the manager is underperforming (vs helping the team get out of a rough patch). There's also the consideration that a manager can at best influence their team's outcomes, while being fully accountable for them. This gets worse as you climb up the ladder, as the influencing gets more and more tenuous, while accountability only grows. The stress of this should not be underestimated by folks considering a move into management.
It's mixed and depends a lot on the specifics of the situation. I'd say that business-critical engineers (i.e. ones who have deep knowledge of a profit-center codebase) have more job security than non-business-critical managers (i.e. those who run "nice to have" projects), but business-critical managers have more job security than business-critical engineers and non-business-critical managers have more security than non-business-critical engineers, particularly senior ones.
If you're a CEO planning a layoff, your #1 priority is to minimize disruption to the organization. The worst employee is one who is still on the payroll but demoralized; hopelessness is contagious, so not only are they probably not productive themselves, but they make everyone around them unproductive. If you lay off a good manager, they're gone, but you've also demoralized all their reports. You get the same effect if you lay off a core engineer, one with deep knowledge of the codebase that everyone goes to for questions. However, you can lay off a garden variety IC, one that keeps to themselves and just does their job, without any serious repercussions to the org. And you can lay off a whole division without serious repercussions for the rest of the org, because everybody who knew them will no longer be there. This is why many companies try to structure layoffs as "We are exiting this line of business, and that is why the people who worked there are no longer with us."
The one big exception is executives, who usually have less job security than either ICs or managers. I've heard this as a reason why executive salaries are so high; few qualified people will take the job without the knowledge that they'll get F-U money in 2-3 years, because there's a decent chance they'll be fired and unhireable by then. This also fits into the framework above: typically, when an executive gets fired, it's because the business they lead is underperforming and the staff is already demoralized. At this point you lose nothing by getting rid of the executive in charge, because everyone wants to see him gone anyway.
The same logic applies to bad managers; you can and should fire these quickly, because they demoralize all of their reports.
It occurred to me recently that this may be why we have layoffs at all. The fairest approach, and one that maximizes general welfare, is to give everyone an equal pay cut when the company's revenues go down. The problem is that this demoralizes everyone. The good people will leave anyway, while the bad people will sit and do nothing useful while bleeding the company dry of the rest of its cash. So instead, companies create much greater pain across a smaller number of people, and then ensure that the people most affected are no longer with the company so they don't affect overall company morale. The ones left behind are more inclined to think of themselves as lucky, or skilled, or grateful they weren't the ones canned, which are all positives for performance.
If you're a CEO planning a layoff, your #1 priority is to minimize disruption to the organization. The worst employee is one who is still on the payroll but demoralized; hopelessness is contagious, so not only are they probably not productive themselves, but they make everyone around them unproductive. If you lay off a good manager, they're gone, but you've also demoralized all their reports. You get the same effect if you lay off a core engineer, one with deep knowledge of the codebase that everyone goes to for questions. However, you can lay off a garden variety IC, one that keeps to themselves and just does their job, without any serious repercussions to the org. And you can lay off a whole division without serious repercussions for the rest of the org, because everybody who knew them will no longer be there. This is why many companies try to structure layoffs as "We are exiting this line of business, and that is why the people who worked there are no longer with us."
The one big exception is executives, who usually have less job security than either ICs or managers. I've heard this as a reason why executive salaries are so high; few qualified people will take the job without the knowledge that they'll get F-U money in 2-3 years, because there's a decent chance they'll be fired and unhireable by then. This also fits into the framework above: typically, when an executive gets fired, it's because the business they lead is underperforming and the staff is already demoralized. At this point you lose nothing by getting rid of the executive in charge, because everyone wants to see him gone anyway.
The same logic applies to bad managers; you can and should fire these quickly, because they demoralize all of their reports.
It occurred to me recently that this may be why we have layoffs at all. The fairest approach, and one that maximizes general welfare, is to give everyone an equal pay cut when the company's revenues go down. The problem is that this demoralizes everyone. The good people will leave anyway, while the bad people will sit and do nothing useful while bleeding the company dry of the rest of its cash. So instead, companies create much greater pain across a smaller number of people, and then ensure that the people most affected are no longer with the company so they don't affect overall company morale. The ones left behind are more inclined to think of themselves as lucky, or skilled, or grateful they weren't the ones canned, which are all positives for performance.
I transitioned from software development into a fairly technical documentation position. Get paid more than I ever did as a software developer, and my previous employer was no slouch for pay. If you love writing and communication, it could be a good choice for you! But if you hate writing essays and playing with beta-quality software, stay far, far away.
Could you give more details? I’m surprised it was a pay increase. I love writing and I’ve vaguely considered doing this sort of thing, but I’ve never seriously looked into it.
Hey, I am interested in this, can you tell me a little more?
Thanks
Thanks
Wow, also very interested in this. I'd love spend more time writing.
This sounds a lot like where I was around year ten in my career... I made a move into a niche area of technology consulting. That led to a whole lot of variety - I did pre-sales engineering, sold services, did a whole lot of high-profile consulting work, etc. Point being - if you are still enjoying technology but not the specific work you are doing or the company in which you are doing it, find a horizontal move into some other area.
Eventually, I burned out on all of it and went into real estate. That's a major jump and I wouldn't recommend it unless it's a field that really calls to you. Someone below mentioned licensing - there are a whole lot of niche fields that make the world go around. Think escrow officer, home inspector, insurance salesperson, home appraisal... not all of these might pay much, but there's a certain stability to them because it does take effort to get a license.
Speaking of which... if financial upside is part of your goal and you can get through the licensing, and if you like working with the general public... there's a good lifestyle to be made as a financial advisor / planner.
Eventually, I burned out on all of it and went into real estate. That's a major jump and I wouldn't recommend it unless it's a field that really calls to you. Someone below mentioned licensing - there are a whole lot of niche fields that make the world go around. Think escrow officer, home inspector, insurance salesperson, home appraisal... not all of these might pay much, but there's a certain stability to them because it does take effort to get a license.
Speaking of which... if financial upside is part of your goal and you can get through the licensing, and if you like working with the general public... there's a good lifestyle to be made as a financial advisor / planner.
What kind of role did you have when you switched to real estate? I have actually been thinking about becoming an agent since you can make decent money and the licensing process seems rather simple for what it is.
I have been interested in software sales as well but that seems like it could be hard to break into as an engineer.
I have been interested in software sales as well but that seems like it could be hard to break into as an engineer.
I've made personal contact with various people on HN over the years. I'd be glad to bounce ideas around about your current career or other options, just share your contact info in some way and we'll set up a call.
I was freelancing when I made the move to real estate, so in that regard I was already comfortable in a self-employed role. Many people in tech (myself included) are excessively introverted. If this describes you, you'll want to consider how you feel about a career move where lots of contact with the general public is necessary, and how you'll cope with that for yourself.
Yes, the licensing is straightforward - I'm licensed in two states and am considering getting my license in a third. That said, it's a lot like how we talk about the 10x engineer in software - there's a huge gap between having a license and actually being a skilled professional. The average US agent makes something like $60K a year, whereas the top earners (and of course market matters...) make many multiples of that. Real estate is not a monolith - there are many different directions you can take a career. If you aren't comfortable with being an entrepreneur / self-employed person, you'll have a harder time of it.
Again, happy to talk more about licensing, how to choose a brokerage, finding your niche, etc. Likewise, if you go down that path I'm happy to introduce you to mentors, contacts, etc where possible.
I was freelancing when I made the move to real estate, so in that regard I was already comfortable in a self-employed role. Many people in tech (myself included) are excessively introverted. If this describes you, you'll want to consider how you feel about a career move where lots of contact with the general public is necessary, and how you'll cope with that for yourself.
Yes, the licensing is straightforward - I'm licensed in two states and am considering getting my license in a third. That said, it's a lot like how we talk about the 10x engineer in software - there's a huge gap between having a license and actually being a skilled professional. The average US agent makes something like $60K a year, whereas the top earners (and of course market matters...) make many multiples of that. Real estate is not a monolith - there are many different directions you can take a career. If you aren't comfortable with being an entrepreneur / self-employed person, you'll have a harder time of it.
Again, happy to talk more about licensing, how to choose a brokerage, finding your niche, etc. Likewise, if you go down that path I'm happy to introduce you to mentors, contacts, etc where possible.
> I have been interested in software sales as well but that seems like it could be hard to break into as an engineer.
I am currently in technical sales (Presales is the name of my org).
This absolutely is not the case. There aren't a ton of folks crossing over but one of my team members did so and has been quite successful.
While it wasn't from a software engineering role, I moved to technical sales from the org's support group so I have the faintest sense of what pitfalls that you may go through.
At the end of the day, many folks in Support groups and R&D groups can fall into the trap of thinking narrowly about a problem. Let us take the problem of getting data into an application. In this scenario a customer asks you if your tool supports 'real time data'. The direct answer is no, it takes time for the tool to fetch / process / present the data from the source system. From a technical lens, this is absolutely, 100% correct. From a selling lens, it's helpful to redirect the conversation towards the customer's goal. Their goal is that they have the lowest latency data possible. This isn't a binary yes / no situation like the previous question.
Now it's relevant to ask questions like:
- What is the source system?
- Is the source truly the originator of the data or is it a downstream consumer of a pipeline?
- If it's not the originator, then how frequently is this pipeline run? Real-time? Micro-batch? What is the latency here?
- Is the source a fixed price system or a cloud-native platform (e.g. Snowflake, BigQuery, etc) where there are marginal costs per query?
- How many consumers will there be of this data? 1? 100? 1000? 10,000? Data approaches often can be cost / performance effective at one scale but flounder at another.
The net result is that the key question that you have to ask involves focusing on the _problem_ the potential customer wants to solve, not just the mechanics of how to solve it.
That plus
- the politics of the deal
- answering the question at the right level of grain for an audience (engineers get different frames of the same answer than VPs / Executives)
- positioning your differentiated techniques and technologies early in the deal to nudge out competitors (they will be doing the same)
- explaining broad or complicated techniques in a consumable fashion (aka a ton of PowerPoint slides) and a number of other aspects
Feel free to ping me (email is in my profile) if you want to chat more about this.
I am currently in technical sales (Presales is the name of my org).
This absolutely is not the case. There aren't a ton of folks crossing over but one of my team members did so and has been quite successful.
While it wasn't from a software engineering role, I moved to technical sales from the org's support group so I have the faintest sense of what pitfalls that you may go through.
At the end of the day, many folks in Support groups and R&D groups can fall into the trap of thinking narrowly about a problem. Let us take the problem of getting data into an application. In this scenario a customer asks you if your tool supports 'real time data'. The direct answer is no, it takes time for the tool to fetch / process / present the data from the source system. From a technical lens, this is absolutely, 100% correct. From a selling lens, it's helpful to redirect the conversation towards the customer's goal. Their goal is that they have the lowest latency data possible. This isn't a binary yes / no situation like the previous question.
Now it's relevant to ask questions like:
- What is the source system?
- Is the source truly the originator of the data or is it a downstream consumer of a pipeline?
- If it's not the originator, then how frequently is this pipeline run? Real-time? Micro-batch? What is the latency here?
- Is the source a fixed price system or a cloud-native platform (e.g. Snowflake, BigQuery, etc) where there are marginal costs per query?
- How many consumers will there be of this data? 1? 100? 1000? 10,000? Data approaches often can be cost / performance effective at one scale but flounder at another.
The net result is that the key question that you have to ask involves focusing on the _problem_ the potential customer wants to solve, not just the mechanics of how to solve it.
That plus
- the politics of the deal
- answering the question at the right level of grain for an audience (engineers get different frames of the same answer than VPs / Executives)
- positioning your differentiated techniques and technologies early in the deal to nudge out competitors (they will be doing the same)
- explaining broad or complicated techniques in a consumable fashion (aka a ton of PowerPoint slides) and a number of other aspects
Feel free to ping me (email is in my profile) if you want to chat more about this.
You might be able to take lower paying jobs if they have pensions or overtime.
Police officers make decent money (depending on location) and have great pensions since they're public sector union employees. I know a guy that took all the overtime he could get his last year. He made $160k and was then entitled to $80k pension (half your highest paid year. Downsides are that it's mostly sedentary and carries physical risks.
Teachers make decent money in a handful of states. You can make $90k in as a secondary ed biology teacher. Downsides can be policies you don't agree with (like no grades lower than 50%) and potential physical risks depending on the student body.
Many trades make good money. I have a friend who is a construction manager for a gas utility making $85k. His workers can make that and more with overtime (union gig too). Before that he worked at UPS and it wasn't unheard of for drivers to make $100k.
Police officers make decent money (depending on location) and have great pensions since they're public sector union employees. I know a guy that took all the overtime he could get his last year. He made $160k and was then entitled to $80k pension (half your highest paid year. Downsides are that it's mostly sedentary and carries physical risks.
Teachers make decent money in a handful of states. You can make $90k in as a secondary ed biology teacher. Downsides can be policies you don't agree with (like no grades lower than 50%) and potential physical risks depending on the student body.
Many trades make good money. I have a friend who is a construction manager for a gas utility making $85k. His workers can make that and more with overtime (union gig too). Before that he worked at UPS and it wasn't unheard of for drivers to make $100k.
I don't have an answer but something of a follow-up question: my theory on how to do this is to find a field where my stuff skills are very useful, but are a complement to the job rather than the job itself. I'm thinking of things like scientific / engineering / research endeavors where the ability to think through how to structure and work with large amounts of data in a maintainable way is a useful skill but the software itself is not the primary work product. Has anybody had success with this approach?
Would also be interested in this topic. I’ve been a dev for some years now but I have always wanted to lean more into the scientific/research side of things and no idea what that path looks like or how to get there. Ultimately I’d like to end up at a lab of some sort or in a “hybrid” area like space.
So far the only ideas I’ve come across are the standard “do some related project for resume purposes and then apply to anywhere/everywhere until it works” or “go back to school for a 2nd/more relevant degree and try again”
Neither of which is particularly practical for me, but perhaps this is the way.
So far the only ideas I’ve come across are the standard “do some related project for resume purposes and then apply to anywhere/everywhere until it works” or “go back to school for a 2nd/more relevant degree and try again”
Neither of which is particularly practical for me, but perhaps this is the way.
If you have a college degree and are willing to go through what essentially is an apprenticeship for 2 years, Residential Real Estate appraisal is not a bad gig. I’m just now getting my license after apprenticing since 2019, and there is a lot of work to be had in large metro areas (I’m in the Phoenix area). Having a degree gets you the highest level of licensure, but even with just specific appraisal classes alone and no degree you can still make a mint.
It’s pretty much data analysis and comparing apples to apples as close as you can get, adjusting for differences between homes; And while the forms you fill are repetitive, the homes you see are usually anything but. You can run your own shop and make a comfortable 300k+ a year, and if you really want, you can expand your services outside of working for appraisal management companies and mortgage companies.
There is a deficit of new blood entering the profession, and certainly not as many technically skilled people getting into it. This does mean that a lot of processes are a bit archaic (like submitting files in XML, or counties having aged FTP sites for their parcel maps), but the tide on a technical front is changing, ever so slowly (no one does their reports on index cards or uses microfilm readers like my grandfather used to).
One thing that might be tough if you look into this route is finding someone to train you. Most of these old guys (and truly I mean old guys) are happy with their little kingdoms of the area they cover, and their reluctance to train the new appraisers wanting to enter the field has created the lack of qualified workforce that has had people like me working overtime during the pandemic.
Great job, and has been the best choice of my life, and would not go back to front end dev or call centers; Cause nothing has given me the freedom of working for myself and running a business with my father, with the ability to start my own business when he retires.
It’s pretty much data analysis and comparing apples to apples as close as you can get, adjusting for differences between homes; And while the forms you fill are repetitive, the homes you see are usually anything but. You can run your own shop and make a comfortable 300k+ a year, and if you really want, you can expand your services outside of working for appraisal management companies and mortgage companies.
There is a deficit of new blood entering the profession, and certainly not as many technically skilled people getting into it. This does mean that a lot of processes are a bit archaic (like submitting files in XML, or counties having aged FTP sites for their parcel maps), but the tide on a technical front is changing, ever so slowly (no one does their reports on index cards or uses microfilm readers like my grandfather used to).
One thing that might be tough if you look into this route is finding someone to train you. Most of these old guys (and truly I mean old guys) are happy with their little kingdoms of the area they cover, and their reluctance to train the new appraisers wanting to enter the field has created the lack of qualified workforce that has had people like me working overtime during the pandemic.
Great job, and has been the best choice of my life, and would not go back to front end dev or call centers; Cause nothing has given me the freedom of working for myself and running a business with my father, with the ability to start my own business when he retires.
That sounds incredible, honestly I am quite jealous as it sounds like a grind to get to where you are. I will have to look into this more. I have always enjoyed real estate related stuff so maybe this could be a good calling.
Appreciate the sentiment, and I’m glad to have been afforded the opportunity to have a faster track into this than most. Another reason why there is such a lack of working appraisers now is the same reason why it was easier for me to find a supervisor to train me: You either have family in the industry, or a close friend that gets you a foot in the door.
I will be a 3rd generation appraiser, following in the footsteps of my father (who has been in the industry at different levels for 30+ years), and his father (who got into the profession my answering a newspaper ad for FHA appraisers). For the longest time I balked at going into “the family business”, and it took me beating my head against a wall at places that didn’t give a shit about me or my skills to find the one place both of those things were taken seriously.
A side note for those reading this that have ADHD, I cannot stress how much of an overlap there is with appraisers and having some sort of attention disorder. This is not a bad thing, but a pattern I’ve noticed in talking to appraisers from around the US, but many of us seem to have self selected into a profession that works really well with the way that some forms of ADHD work. The specific report forms we fill provide structure and readability of the written reports we prepare, but the randomness and dopamine hit of a new subject and comparable sales to analyze every report keep it fresh.
Any questions anyone has, more than happy to answer!
I will be a 3rd generation appraiser, following in the footsteps of my father (who has been in the industry at different levels for 30+ years), and his father (who got into the profession my answering a newspaper ad for FHA appraisers). For the longest time I balked at going into “the family business”, and it took me beating my head against a wall at places that didn’t give a shit about me or my skills to find the one place both of those things were taken seriously.
A side note for those reading this that have ADHD, I cannot stress how much of an overlap there is with appraisers and having some sort of attention disorder. This is not a bad thing, but a pattern I’ve noticed in talking to appraisers from around the US, but many of us seem to have self selected into a profession that works really well with the way that some forms of ADHD work. The specific report forms we fill provide structure and readability of the written reports we prepare, but the randomness and dopamine hit of a new subject and comparable sales to analyze every report keep it fresh.
Any questions anyone has, more than happy to answer!
I think you should elucidate and explain more about what you have come to dislike about it, what you feel is missing, etc, to get better advice.
Unfortunately there is no other job that enables you the high pay versus low barrier to enter the field.
I would recommend taking time off and then starting a software job at a new company. Find a company with different culture, new people, etc.
You might as well try this first before doing something more extreme. If it doesn't help then try switching careers.
You might as well try this first before doing something more extreme. If it doesn't help then try switching careers.
Sorry you're feeling burnt out! It's a struggle for all of us especially during this pandemic. My advice is to try some other kinds of software development. Software development is such a vast field. I've been an engineer for a decade as well and I only really know about my specific field which is web and devops. There may be another field of engineering or specialty where your skills carry over but it's more fun and less burnout. Game development and mobile app development, for example, are very different work from my day job.
Why not find a software engineer job within a vertical that resonated with you. Ed tech, Medtech, web3, lawyertech. Whatever that will
Leverage your experience and apply it into a field that will drive your objectives forward. I am a HW engineer with 10+ years exp who is actively preparing for leetcoding interview. Software engineering is a evergreen career but burnout is inevitable but as long as you can keep updating and have a good focus on life outside work
If you're good with people, mid-level healthcare provider positions pay well and are extremely in demand. Nurse Practitioners is likely the easiest route to attain. Physician Assistant master's degrees is more prestigious and pays better, but is universally competitive vs some NP programs that are pretty lax with who they will take on as students.
Pay for these positions easily starts in the 6 figures, with some PA specialties starting closer to $200k.
Pay for these positions easily starts in the 6 figures, with some PA specialties starting closer to $200k.
The nurse practitioner market is saturated. New grads are often facing months of job search in most parts of the country. The colleges voluntarily shifted to doctorate degrees to slow down new entrants.
There's several careers that are 'software-adjacent' that'd be easier to transition into rather than a completely new industry.
- Technical Sales Role
- Product Manager
- Data Scientist
- (Technical) Program Manager
- Solution Architect
- (Technical) Management Consultant
- etc.DevOps, cloud architecture/engineering.
Another option could be teaching IT (private) - organize lectures about your expertise, etc
Another option could be teaching IT (private) - organize lectures about your expertise, etc
DevOps doesn't really interest me. It seems to be messier than software development with all of the craziness like K8s and stuff like that nowadays.
You're looking at it from the SW dev angle, but DevOps is very interesting from the management angle too and you can leave stuff like K8s to some DevOps engineers after you've done your consulting.
I mean stuff like GitOps/trunk-based development, release management, feature management, monitoring, review apps (see on Gitlab), Git itself (still not universal) and so on.
I mean stuff like GitOps/trunk-based development, release management, feature management, monitoring, review apps (see on Gitlab), Git itself (still not universal) and so on.
Are there really people who only do devops? I work for a Fortune 500 company with thousands of developers and we are all expected to do our own devops work.
I was a contractor for a few F500 and all of them had separate DevOps teams that we were supposed to interface with; we didn't even have access to the cloud console. But I was also a contractor for few large companies (but nowhere near F500) and we did all DevOps ourselves and had full access to the cloud panel.
Both models had DevOps consultants though - someone who advises the management on the best ways to do DevOps so each developer doesn't do it in their own way & so never-ending discussions about what's the best way are avoided (those didn't write a single line of code).
Both models had DevOps consultants though - someone who advises the management on the best ways to do DevOps so each developer doesn't do it in their own way & so never-ending discussions about what's the best way are avoided (those didn't write a single line of code).
It’s totally possible. Aside from a stint “embedded” on an implementation team to launch a critical product, I’ve been doing exclusively exploration, architecture, devops, and documentation for the last two years or so.
DevOps, cloud architecture/engineering.
⊂ "software development" (which the author hates) or what am I missing here?
⊂ "software development" (which the author hates) or what am I missing here?
I went back to school for an MBA, emphasis in Supply Chain. The math and software side of my tech skills are valued because I'm pretty good at numerical analysis and learning the various odd software the company uses. Pay can be pretty great, depending where you go.
Pilot or air traffic control. Anything where it’s expensive to get license is good alternative.
“What’s the difference between a regional pilot and a large pepperoni pizza?” “The pizza can feed a family of four.”
It’s a very long road to get to a decent paying flying job and if your reference is “well-paying like software was”, it basically never happens.
It’s a very long road to get to a decent paying flying job and if your reference is “well-paying like software was”, it basically never happens.
Yea, piloting is fun, but a long, loooong grind. It takes a while just to start making peanuts flying regional jets. By the time you are in the big bucks range, you could have done a bachelor’s in biology, med school, your residency and become a doctor.
And starting in air traffic control has an age limit of 30 years old[1], so it might be too late for you already. Talk about even worse ageism than software!
1: https://work.chron.com/many-years-college-need-air-traffic-c...
And starting in air traffic control has an age limit of 30 years old[1], so it might be too late for you already. Talk about even worse ageism than software!
1: https://work.chron.com/many-years-college-need-air-traffic-c...
Having been a pilot (though not for an airline) and now being a software engineer I feel somewhat qualified to speak to this. Doesn’t really matter since airline pay is public and I think levels.fyi does a good job.
Captain at a major airline is attainable, it just takes time. Looks like that’s capping out at $270k right now (I’m sure I’m missing some benefits or something). Pilot pay isn’t nearly as affected by geography and multiple days of work mean an otherwise insane commute (like multiple states) is possible. An airline captain in a small town in Iowa is doing better than a software engineer. But the software engineer in Silicon Valley is doing way better. This was all prepandemic and I imagine that’s shaken up remote work pay a lot. So who knows.
But if you want to get out software because it’s a grind, stay far far away from the airlines. Sure you don’t have a scrum master breathing down your neck. You have complete autonomy to do the exact same thing over and over the exact same way until you retire. Imagine building the same app for the tenth time but no, literally, it’s the exact same app and it’s not the tenth it’s the thousandth.
Captain at a major airline is attainable, it just takes time. Looks like that’s capping out at $270k right now (I’m sure I’m missing some benefits or something). Pilot pay isn’t nearly as affected by geography and multiple days of work mean an otherwise insane commute (like multiple states) is possible. An airline captain in a small town in Iowa is doing better than a software engineer. But the software engineer in Silicon Valley is doing way better. This was all prepandemic and I imagine that’s shaken up remote work pay a lot. So who knows.
But if you want to get out software because it’s a grind, stay far far away from the airlines. Sure you don’t have a scrum master breathing down your neck. You have complete autonomy to do the exact same thing over and over the exact same way until you retire. Imagine building the same app for the tenth time but no, literally, it’s the exact same app and it’s not the tenth it’s the thousandth.
These seem like the worst possible options for someone who has been burning out aren't they?
Massive stress, very long hours working in the dark, against hard deadlines, no chance to step away, overseen and monitored constantly.
Pilots are also notoriously poorly paid.
Massive stress, very long hours working in the dark, against hard deadlines, no chance to step away, overseen and monitored constantly.
Pilots are also notoriously poorly paid.
Could pivot into cyber-security? This could be bug bounties or pen-testing. Basically knowing how software is built gives you a massive advantage here.
I imagine your pay would go down as you start, but you're going to have to accept that for any change in career.
I imagine your pay would go down as you start, but you're going to have to accept that for any change in career.
Union jobs like electricians and plumbers and such. That’d be my guess.
Actuary pays well
Any insights into barriers to entry?
Seems like the work might get boring, right?
Seems like the work might get boring, right?
Other commenter is right that a Bachelors and passing the exams are required. The work certainly does get boring, but is extremely stable with, usually, excellent work life balance. It's very possible (in the US) to spend ~7 years working/studying to pass the exams and now you can make 150-200k USD/year while averaging 35 hours week for the remainder of your career.
One major difference in comparison to software is the extremely long project timelines. Loss model refits/remodels are planned years in advance, it can easily take 6 months back and forth waiting on states to respond to filings, etc.
One major difference in comparison to software is the extremely long project timelines. Loss model refits/remodels are planned years in advance, it can easily take 6 months back and forth waiting on states to respond to filings, etc.
Wow, thanks for the info, $150k-200k sounds nice
Typically requires a bachelors degree, ideally with a background in math. In order to progress in the career, one has to take and pass actuarial exams.
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Pharmacist, starting salaries are really high (100k+ starting).
Project/Product Manager.
QA
Seems downvoted, but test roles are a legitimate alternative. It is not more/less work, but is a change of pace from dev/eng roles.
Test positions vary. QA might mean tedious manual testing, or it might not. What you'd probably want is a software developer in test (SDT) position.
This is maybe a rare good experience, but I was a software developer in test (SDT) early in my career, and enjoyed it. The salary bands were the same as dev positions at that particular company. I wrote test strategies and automated everything: end-to-end tests, CI pipelines, performance tests, etc. I gave a few internal talks, switched teams/projects frequently (once per year), and met whole bunch of people.
A big difference for me between QA/SDT and Dev/Eng is I could be more passive. I didn't run meetings and had less responsibility for the project. I never talked to a customer once, although you need a sense of what they want. If my tests weren't 100% finished/passing, the thing is still put in front of users anyway. When you find bugs, the fixes are prioritized against everything else (i.e. non urgent). Usually I wasn't finding major issues anyway, but working on regression tests to ensure most things are basically working from release to release.
YMMV. It's still a lot of work, but different. If you're a competent dev, you'll stand out easily as an SDT.
Test positions vary. QA might mean tedious manual testing, or it might not. What you'd probably want is a software developer in test (SDT) position.
This is maybe a rare good experience, but I was a software developer in test (SDT) early in my career, and enjoyed it. The salary bands were the same as dev positions at that particular company. I wrote test strategies and automated everything: end-to-end tests, CI pipelines, performance tests, etc. I gave a few internal talks, switched teams/projects frequently (once per year), and met whole bunch of people.
A big difference for me between QA/SDT and Dev/Eng is I could be more passive. I didn't run meetings and had less responsibility for the project. I never talked to a customer once, although you need a sense of what they want. If my tests weren't 100% finished/passing, the thing is still put in front of users anyway. When you find bugs, the fixes are prioritized against everything else (i.e. non urgent). Usually I wasn't finding major issues anyway, but working on regression tests to ensure most things are basically working from release to release.
YMMV. It's still a lot of work, but different. If you're a competent dev, you'll stand out easily as an SDT.
All the stress, less prestige, less political weight, less pay, less praise.
Nah.
Nah.
God no. constantly repeating the same thing over and over, looking for someone else's failures.
I've thought about this. I wasn't quite sure about the salary bands for QA. Do you happen to know what remote QA pay ranges are?
If he's burnt-out from being a developer, QA will just add fuel to the fire. I feel they the most under paid and overexploited and time pressured of any role adjacent to software development and dedicated QA jobs are going extinct anyway.