Ask HN: What Roles/Skills Do You Struggle to Hire For?
107 comments
So the biggest problem I had was hiring my first employee. I needed help with a lot of things -- development, graphic design, web design, sales, accounting, product management, etc.
But the people looking for jobs are looking for a very specific role. Eg. they want a job as a developer, or as a graphic designer, and it's kinda hard to find someone who can do more than just one thing. But as a small company I don't really have enough work for a full time employee who does just one thing.
Most of the people I met who are good at more than one thing had their own business or startup and weren't looking for a job.
But the people looking for jobs are looking for a very specific role. Eg. they want a job as a developer, or as a graphic designer, and it's kinda hard to find someone who can do more than just one thing. But as a small company I don't really have enough work for a full time employee who does just one thing.
Most of the people I met who are good at more than one thing had their own business or startup and weren't looking for a job.
This is because people are told to specialize if they want to move up. I’ve known lots of people who wanted to be generalists, but couldn’t get promoted because as soon as you have promotion ladders, the first thing added is “deep expertise” in something narrow.
Seriously. It's hard just finding a job as a generalist developer, or even a "full-stack web & app developer" without every interviewer asking "so...backend or front-end?"
Me: "Whatever helps bring value to the customer. I've done it all and [gives examples]"
Them: "We have a frontend role and a backend role. Which do you want?"
"Neither. Bye"
Me: "Whatever helps bring value to the customer. I've done it all and [gives examples]"
Them: "We have a frontend role and a backend role. Which do you want?"
"Neither. Bye"
I consider myself a generalist, and if I had to choose, it would be backend. It's more low level and fun, and honestly, I'm not a great designer. The point of being a generalist is that you can adapt to more places.
Taking into account the risk/reward ratio, I suspect said generalists wouldn't want to join at that point.. get low wage, "first employee" little equity, and most chances not worth anything..
He's better off getting a job with some BigCorp really.. can't blame them.
He's better off getting a job with some BigCorp really.. can't blame them.
I’d love to have a job with multiple roles. I’d guess there are many people like me.
The reason it is hard to hire such people is low pay. Why would I want to wear multiple hats (and take on extra stress, even if I love the job) when I can walk across the street and get higher salary for a bit more boring role?
Of course I don’t know how much you’re paying, I am just pointing out the general case here.
The reason it is hard to hire such people is low pay. Why would I want to wear multiple hats (and take on extra stress, even if I love the job) when I can walk across the street and get higher salary for a bit more boring role?
Of course I don’t know how much you’re paying, I am just pointing out the general case here.
I think you answered your own question, no? It's more boring. Some people value excitement over compensation.
A higher salary for a bit more boring role is actually great for some people. You can master that boring job if you want, and the higher income combined with less stress allows for fun hobbies to scratch that generalist itch.
That's really interesting to hear; as a generalist, I've had a hard time finding positions that aren't super spiky!
Me too. I have only had one job where I was specifically hired because of my broad range of skills and experience. It was with (at the time) a 6 person company. We grew and a couple of years later were merged with a much larger competitor.
Seems to me recruiters are only interested in people already doing exactly the job being advertised. As if somebody with lots of experience in lots of technologies suddenly can't come up to speed with a different product/tool.
Seems to me recruiters are only interested in people already doing exactly the job being advertised. As if somebody with lots of experience in lots of technologies suddenly can't come up to speed with a different product/tool.
This. I've learned it's best to masquerade as a committed specialist in order to get a job. OTOH, saying "I'm going to do whatever is needed to help your company succeed" isn't great marketing.
Same boat here. Do we need a hiring market specifically for generalists?
Find someone who has/is running their own business and partner with them.
Forget the employee/employer relationship for this kind of skillset.
I have done this several times in my life - it's amazing when two people, willing to do literally any job that is needed, get together. Pretty powerful combination.
I have done this several times in my life - it's amazing when two people, willing to do literally any job that is needed, get together. Pretty powerful combination.
Partner how – they'll want us to work on their business, and I'll want us to work on mine, no?
It's possible they have the skills you need but their time isn't fully utilized, so they can fill time with working on your projects rather than looking for more clients.
Maybe something like retaining 25% of their time for your projects could work. If you need more than 25% of a person's time, then maybe find two people with different skillets (although coordinating could be more difficult).
Maybe something like retaining 25% of their time for your projects could work. If you need more than 25% of a person's time, then maybe find two people with different skillets (although coordinating could be more difficult).
Like cofounders I would guess
I'd love to hear more about how you structure these partnerships? I doubt you are helping each other out for free?
Two examples to explain what I mean.
1. I had my own consulting business (small, 2 of us plus some outsourced support). I didn't like the sales part of the business. Met a client who loved selling and needed support in other areas. I wrapped up my business and took a role as it was more focused on what I love.
2. Currently working with an individual whose business closed during Covid. They think at a high level and are helping with BA work, documentation, client comms etc. It's not so much a hire/employee and more an understanding that they can add value with less direction. They get paid a contract rate.
1. I had my own consulting business (small, 2 of us plus some outsourced support). I didn't like the sales part of the business. Met a client who loved selling and needed support in other areas. I wrapped up my business and took a role as it was more focused on what I love.
2. Currently working with an individual whose business closed during Covid. They think at a high level and are helping with BA work, documentation, client comms etc. It's not so much a hire/employee and more an understanding that they can add value with less direction. They get paid a contract rate.
You save a large amount of time and energy by having one point of contact for multiple disparate services/skills.
In other words such a person delivers a higher amount of value, above the individual tasks done, by saving you time on coordination and hiring.
I'm wondering if your offers are reflecting this value that a multi-skilled person would provide you? Or do you expect to get the benefit of their extra skills for free while they don't benefit from their own skillset, which they must have spent a lot of time learning?
In other words such a person delivers a higher amount of value, above the individual tasks done, by saving you time on coordination and hiring.
I'm wondering if your offers are reflecting this value that a multi-skilled person would provide you? Or do you expect to get the benefit of their extra skills for free while they don't benefit from their own skillset, which they must have spent a lot of time learning?
My offer was based on how much I could afford to pay. Maybe that was the problem, I don't know. All I know is that the people who applied (and who I ended up hiring) were pretty focussed on their job description and liked to have someone tell them what to do.
There was one guy who declined my offer because it was too low who later started their own business, so maybe you are right that people with multiple skills just want more money.
There was one guy who declined my offer because it was too low who later started their own business, so maybe you are right that people with multiple skills just want more money.
And in my view, if you're a jack of all trades then you're setting yourself up for lower future compensation. Most of the jobs are at big companies, and big companies want specialists. Switching between roles reduces the opportunity to become an expert in any of them.
300% agreeing with this... In a small company, finding the right "right arm" is incredibly tough. So much so that I still have not despite multiple attempts.
You may have to find somebody with the right "raw ingredients" and grow them into the role. This is also tough because you don't have all your needs filled right away.
Are you (or anyone else reading this) by any chance looking to hire a generalist right now? I do development, graphic design, web design, writing, marketing, and a bunch of other stuff.
If this sounds interesting, please share your contact info, or drop me an email (address in profile)!
If this sounds interesting, please share your contact info, or drop me an email (address in profile)!
When I was in college I took on fat-loads of freelance work. I had to be the product manager, product designer, graphics designer, UX designer, database design, deployment, all while having to explain what I'm doing and what I need to a board of white-haired boomers who know alittle cobol.
It was EXHAUSTING!!
Working the responsibilities of a team of 5-7 while having to communicate with admins and execs ruined the experience for me, I'm a programmer, I like to sit down for 5-6hrs a day and code. You need me to do something, assign me the issue I'll make it happen. And I feel like there's a lot of people who think like me. Specializing to move up in your company is important, but it also feels good. Focusing yourself on one thing that fulfills you and getting good at that is way more rewarding then having to work through the frustration of switching gears to another job.
To all who think that you can start a company by collecting a tonne of venture capital and hire one dude to do all the work, cease. You can't do it. It doesn't work. That's not how you win.
It was EXHAUSTING!!
Working the responsibilities of a team of 5-7 while having to communicate with admins and execs ruined the experience for me, I'm a programmer, I like to sit down for 5-6hrs a day and code. You need me to do something, assign me the issue I'll make it happen. And I feel like there's a lot of people who think like me. Specializing to move up in your company is important, but it also feels good. Focusing yourself on one thing that fulfills you and getting good at that is way more rewarding then having to work through the frustration of switching gears to another job.
To all who think that you can start a company by collecting a tonne of venture capital and hire one dude to do all the work, cease. You can't do it. It doesn't work. That's not how you win.
Honestly it's not technical things that are hard to hire for its finding engineers who show initiative and can communicate well with stakeholders. Its like finding gold especially now in remote working.
I not only am good at communicating with stakeholders, I enjoy doing so. But every place I’ve worked doesn’t even allow it. There is always a product team to act as a go-between/wall between stakeholders and engineering.
This has been so true in my experience recently.
For us, I would say in the UK, all are hard to hire.
The main background issue is a lack of supply if you are not in a place to hire worldwide remote (which many companies are not).
As a small company, doing the communications required for doing recruitment all in-house, as well as getting your job listings out to where people will find them is hard. However, using Recruiters is expensive and they have less ability to do quality filtering of applicants, especially since they are driven by commission more than quality so I think they would rather get us to interview someone who isn't a great match "just in case".
The main background issue is a lack of supply if you are not in a place to hire worldwide remote (which many companies are not).
As a small company, doing the communications required for doing recruitment all in-house, as well as getting your job listings out to where people will find them is hard. However, using Recruiters is expensive and they have less ability to do quality filtering of applicants, especially since they are driven by commission more than quality so I think they would rather get us to interview someone who isn't a great match "just in case".
> I would say in the UK, all are hard to hire.
I always say that when it comes to lack of candidates there's this magical thing called "money" where if you throw more of it on the table the problem suddenly resolves itself.
Recruiters and getting your job ad in front of more people is only needed when it's a hard sell; if it's an offer most people can't refuse then you just have to show it to a handful of people before you get someone who agrees.
I always say that when it comes to lack of candidates there's this magical thing called "money" where if you throw more of it on the table the problem suddenly resolves itself.
Recruiters and getting your job ad in front of more people is only needed when it's a hard sell; if it's an offer most people can't refuse then you just have to show it to a handful of people before you get someone who agrees.
I don't think it's as simple as that, just ask any large company who is paying £100K+ for developers. It generates even more noise than before since there are plenty of chancers who will apply because if they get in then great but in the meantime, we are struggling to make good assessments of people's skills and values and it is hard to judge in a short time whether someone is working out, in which case you might have lost £30K to a Recruiter and another £15K in salary for someone who didn't work out.
If we had loads more money, we would probably pay for more specialist recruiters but nothing we have tried so far has been brilliant. We are looking at the whole package though, I think there are things that are relatively easy to do that make a job look appealing like duvet days or free posh coffee and stuff like that.
If we had loads more money, we would probably pay for more specialist recruiters but nothing we have tried so far has been brilliant. We are looking at the whole package though, I think there are things that are relatively easy to do that make a job look appealing like duvet days or free posh coffee and stuff like that.
> we are struggling to make good assessments of people's skills
There's an easy solution to that, 10 MORE rounds of leetcode hard level questions.
There's an easy solution to that, 10 MORE rounds of leetcode hard level questions.
> I always say that when it comes to lack of candidates there's this magical thing called "money" where if you throw more of it on the table the problem suddenly resolves itself.
In the past few years, developers’ salaries have increased significantly in the continent. In Germany they are almost on par with London. So to convince somebody to move to the UK and go through the immigration checks, you have to pay more than the average British employer can afford. For 80-90K£, you are far better off getting 60K€ in Germany or Austria. I wouldn’t advise a EU citizen to move to the UK if they aren’t going to earn more than 120K£.
In the past few years, developers’ salaries have increased significantly in the continent. In Germany they are almost on par with London. So to convince somebody to move to the UK and go through the immigration checks, you have to pay more than the average British employer can afford. For 80-90K£, you are far better off getting 60K€ in Germany or Austria. I wouldn’t advise a EU citizen to move to the UK if they aren’t going to earn more than 120K£.
Many years ago I turned down a great job in London. The high salary wasn't enough to compensate for the far greater cost of living in London.
> For 80-90K£, you are far better off getting 60K€ in Germany or Austria.
That's around €95K-€107K. How is getting that in the UK (far) worse than €60K in those places?
In any case, the parent's point stands: throw enough money at them and they will come.
That's around €95K-€107K. How is getting that in the UK (far) worse than €60K in those places?
In any case, the parent's point stands: throw enough money at them and they will come.
Because renting a half decent flat (new build, 60sqm, inner London) costs 2000£ per month, good food is extremely expensive (Waitrose would be an average supermarket in Southern Europe), the NHS is not as good as its continental homologues, so you have to pay for healthcare, public transport is very expensive, you have to deal with the immigration office (which western professionals aren’t used to), etc…
The cheapest nursery in inner London cost more than 1600£ per month, so if you have a child you’ll need 4000-4500£ per month (or 75-80K per annum) just to put a roof over your head. If you want to live like a professional or save some money, you’ll have to multiply that by 2.
The cheapest nursery in inner London cost more than 1600£ per month, so if you have a child you’ll need 4000-4500£ per month (or 75-80K per annum) just to put a roof over your head. If you want to live like a professional or save some money, you’ll have to multiply that by 2.
Living in Berlin, 60k isn't really possible anymore for new hire. I bet there are people in their old jobs making that much, but for our backend hires we had to offer around 70 to find people.
I started the comment saying that salaries in Germany are approaching those of London. Probably Berlin is still slightly below, but I think Hamburg have completed the catch-up.
Later I wrote that you get a better lifestyle in Germany with 60K€ than in London with 90K£.
Later I wrote that you get a better lifestyle in Germany with 60K€ than in London with 90K£.
In the UK, it is notoriously difficult to team-up with someone to build a startup. The mindset is very different. If you go to US, India or China, engineers are willing to take risk. In the UK, the conversation starts something like this:
Me: "I am looking for a tech co-founder; the startup is at an ideation stage, and I have already talked to people who have shown interest in the project. I think having a tech co-founder at this stage will help a lot."
Listener: "How much are you paying for the role?"
Me: "This is an equity-based role because the startup is at an early stage."
Listener: "So you want people to work for you for free??"
This doesn't matter if the listener is an engineer or not. In the UK, there is little understanding of how very early stage startups work. It is equity based, that concept does not go down very well with the population.
Me: "I am looking for a tech co-founder; the startup is at an ideation stage, and I have already talked to people who have shown interest in the project. I think having a tech co-founder at this stage will help a lot."
Listener: "How much are you paying for the role?"
Me: "This is an equity-based role because the startup is at an early stage."
Listener: "So you want people to work for you for free??"
This doesn't matter if the listener is an engineer or not. In the UK, there is little understanding of how very early stage startups work. It is equity based, that concept does not go down very well with the population.
Maybe the reason is that in the US, salaries are high enough that most engineers have a significant war chest saved up that allows them to take these gambles? In the UK, it's much harder because engineer salaries are nowhere near what the US pays.
This is it. You can take a lot of risks when you have 4 years of savings from a US-based tech company.
I expect a lot of US founders will emerge from working remotely from a LCOL area for a couple of years, and then launching with a war chest.
I expect a lot of US founders will emerge from working remotely from a LCOL area for a couple of years, and then launching with a war chest.
I think, yes, this could be the main reason for engineers.
I wonder if something is getting lost in translation. With no particular order:
Hearing the word ideation would cause an allergic in people who are sensitive against Americanisms.
British are also notorius for their indirect way of expressing their thoughts and feelings. Instead of saying they do not believe in your idea or your ability to execute it, they'd prefer to use compensation as a get out.
Hearing the word ideation would cause an allergic in people who are sensitive against Americanisms.
British are also notorius for their indirect way of expressing their thoughts and feelings. Instead of saying they do not believe in your idea or your ability to execute it, they'd prefer to use compensation as a get out.
I just moved from Chicago to Edinburgh, and have about ten years of experience doing full-stack webdev at various startups. I've looked into a few UK jobs and they all seem to pay about a third or at best half what I was making at my previous job with a SV startup.
At some point my hand will be forced if I need a visa sponsorship, but for now it's a pretty tough sell.
At some point my hand will be forced if I need a visa sponsorship, but for now it's a pretty tough sell.
Ha, this is just the reality of things in Europe. I guess at least you get "free" healthcare, holidays and sick pay that you might not get in the US. Jobs in London (remote) would pay best I imagine. My role is paying London rate, even though I live in Nottingham. Previous to that I tried contracting which will pay you about twice what permanent work pays (if you have enough work), however that has been complicated since IR35.
Since Brexit, the labour market is missing all Europeans. To work in the UK you have to leave the EU, or be treated as a lower status resident, or do a bunch of paperwork and pay import/export taxes.
Employers have not accepted that that is a bill they must pay or workers won't join the UK market.
If you move first, then look for a job, you just have to accept the local market conditions.
If you move first, then look for a job, you just have to accept the local market conditions.
Also, as a EU citizen, your time working in the UK would no longer count towards your pension.
Unless you're Irish, be ause that's been grandfathered in.
Although I don't think such an option exists in the UK, several EU countries are offering "Digital Nomad" visas which give you a legitimate status while remaining employed by your SV company.
You won't get the US comp/cost of living ratio anywhere in the world.
The new reality is that UK companies will never be able to hire SW engineers as cheaply as they were able to in the last 15 years.
Lets play the world's smallest violin for the cheapskate hiring managers of UK.
I started on 30k in 2002 UK, now 150k Australia, goal is to double that in a year or so. Mostly through market over me being much better.
I converted all to us$
I converted all to us$
> if you are not in a place to hire worldwide remote
What prevents you (or others) from hiring remote?
What prevents you (or others) from hiring remote?
Waiting for hiring managers to jump in with their tales of woe, about how nobody is able to meet their 'hiring bar' aka 5 rounds of leetcode hard grilling.
Hiring managers read HN ? Recruiters I have come across think that all "hackers" are people in dark rooms, pilfering state secrets and mining cryptocurrencies.
We promise to do that in our own time boss!
<Early stage start-up.>
A founder-mentality developer. A great developer who's willing to take a pay cut for a larger amount of equity. Competition is fierce, and we're not in crypto :'(
A founder-mentality developer. A great developer who's willing to take a pay cut for a larger amount of equity. Competition is fierce, and we're not in crypto :'(
This sounds like you want a co-founder not an employee?
When I was 19 I answered an ad for an internship. I met these 2 clowns in a chinese shop where the first thing they wanted from me was to sign an NDA. They were so hyper-protective of their product idea that I still don't know what it is. The most I got out of them is that it's some sort of dating app (this was years ago IDK where they are now).
I put their product on the side and talked to them about the company and this is what I learned:
Q: how many employees work here
A: it's just the two of us (2 founders)
Q: do we already have some product
A: no
Q: is this a paid position
A: yes (press x to doubt here)
Q: how much?
A: we can pay equity
Q: how much investment do you have
A: none
Q: how much equity do you want to give me?
A: how much do you want?
* wtf kind of a question was that, I thought I was interviewing for an internship*
Q: how is this an internship? This sounds to me like you're looking for an investor.
A: some mumbojumbo about what I'll learn running a company virtually by myself
Is this a common thing? Companies trying to 'hire' investors?
I put their product on the side and talked to them about the company and this is what I learned:
Q: how many employees work here
A: it's just the two of us (2 founders)
Q: do we already have some product
A: no
Q: is this a paid position
A: yes (press x to doubt here)
Q: how much?
A: we can pay equity
Q: how much investment do you have
A: none
Q: how much equity do you want to give me?
A: how much do you want?
* wtf kind of a question was that, I thought I was interviewing for an internship*
Q: how is this an internship? This sounds to me like you're looking for an investor.
A: some mumbojumbo about what I'll learn running a company virtually by myself
Is this a common thing? Companies trying to 'hire' investors?
Maybe I'm a bit sleep-deprived, but wouldn't offering a large amount of equity effectively make them somewhat of a co-founder?
Architects for sure. We permanently have open positions and it is impossible to find qualified candidates.
Software Architect is a difficult job, many skilled developers deliberately forego higher pay to calmly work on tickets from the current sprint and not worry about the big picture.
I switched been Software Architect and Individual Contributor roles a few times. the pay difference does not really match the increase of responsibility for this position, you have to be willing to communicate, lead and challenge others and have fun doing it to be a successful Software Architect.
I switched been Software Architect and Individual Contributor roles a few times. the pay difference does not really match the increase of responsibility for this position, you have to be willing to communicate, lead and challenge others and have fun doing it to be a successful Software Architect.
Same with team leading - not much more pay if any at most companies but a lot more stress. A lot more realtime dealing with stuff. Like loads of meetings at set time’s regardless of your natural flow. Coding remote otoh is like a tap. Turn it on and off. Come back and finish later if needed.
I completely agree. But I feel like the work is more rewarding. I’ve been a manager for a team of architects and I love the difficulty and problem solving of their jobs.
I've been doing principal dev and architecture with teams ranging in size to 30, for many a year in Australia.
May be looking for a new role in a few months time should I find one fully remote with US level pay, if this might be a good match should I get in touch with you?
May be looking for a new role in a few months time should I find one fully remote with US level pay, if this might be a good match should I get in touch with you?
I’m not US based and the company language is not English unfortunately.
Open-minded Rails developers with strong SQL skills (ideally Postgres).
By open-minded I refer to the ability to evaluate and challenge everything that "the community does this", evaluate it in the context of a team/company and suggest the best approach given the specific team conditions, without the presumption that the Rails community is right by default fir every usecase in the world.
Bonus points if the person is interested in software design and even system architecture.
By open-minded I refer to the ability to evaluate and challenge everything that "the community does this", evaluate it in the context of a team/company and suggest the best approach given the specific team conditions, without the presumption that the Rails community is right by default fir every usecase in the world.
Bonus points if the person is interested in software design and even system architecture.
People with broad technical knowledge ( from system programming / asm to Javascript/browser stuff, networking, algorithms, etc). And if they don't know everything ( which is ok), I expect them to want to learn what they don't know. It's also ok if they're not experts everywhere (broad vs deep) , but having a good understanding of how software systems from first principes makes solving lots of problems much easier. It also allows them to help other people.
These people are invaluable, but are very hard to come by.
These people are invaluable, but are very hard to come by.
I'm deep on laravel+vue and very very broad w/ some varying levels of deepness on go, rust, and devops stuff as well as I used to be deep on SEO/Marketing and have interests in growth.
Programming is burning me out, I'd kill for a position where I can just take a salary and/or stock to basically work on writing technical docs/blog posts, deployment systems for devops, or figuring out features or setting up systems to track user feedback to figure out what users want added.
I mean, I'd still jump in and code, I just would like some options to expand my horizons. As a freelancer I haven't been able to find that and I'm tired of applying/interviewing for remote positions.
Maybe I'd be a better CTO than developer or a Project or Product Manager. Hell, I've even thought of just jumping to devops or QA just for a scene change.
Programming is burning me out, I'd kill for a position where I can just take a salary and/or stock to basically work on writing technical docs/blog posts, deployment systems for devops, or figuring out features or setting up systems to track user feedback to figure out what users want added.
I mean, I'd still jump in and code, I just would like some options to expand my horizons. As a freelancer I haven't been able to find that and I'm tired of applying/interviewing for remote positions.
Maybe I'd be a better CTO than developer or a Project or Product Manager. Hell, I've even thought of just jumping to devops or QA just for a scene change.
I (think I) am one of these people, and all I want to do is hire more of them. The company I work for runs a collaborative editor on top of a tree-like data model [1] - so any role, front end or back end, needs to consider offline changes, distributed convergence, and recursive traversals. Vanishingly small numbers of people will come in with these skills so we need to find learners who can go up and down the stack and up and down the layers of abstraction in a stack to find the best designs.
(If this sounds interesting to any readers, send me an email at [email protected] or twitter DM @jitl)
[1]: https://www.notion.so/blog/data-model-behind-notion
(If this sounds interesting to any readers, send me an email at [email protected] or twitter DM @jitl)
[1]: https://www.notion.so/blog/data-model-behind-notion
This is me. The problem is all the jobs I see just want me to use one specific part of my large skill set. A lot of the things I know go largely unused at my job.
There’s also a corollary problem. The few places that do want my depth almost always want it because they are understaffed. They want to overwork me, and I refuse to ever work more than 40 hours a week under any circumstance.
There’s also a corollary problem. The few places that do want my depth almost always want it because they are understaffed. They want to overwork me, and I refuse to ever work more than 40 hours a week under any circumstance.
That sounds like me, combined with good communication and omnidirectional stakeholder management, and I may be looking in a few months for a fully remote role paying US levels and I have a contracting company to make billing easy. Could this be a match for you?
Blue Team positions, junior or senior. There’s no shortage of decent penetration testers but when it comes to the other side, whether it’s incident response, detection engineering, security operations, etc it’s been very difficult.
I’m talking months to find someone. Many candidates apply and look good on paper but turn out to just lie and made us waste many hours of interviews.
As for the why, I suspect one of the following:
- good candidates already have a job they love
- people are not willing to relocate (job is remote but inside one of the countries we are operating in, which is 80)
- there is simply not enough people in the field, which goes back to my first point
I’m talking months to find someone. Many candidates apply and look good on paper but turn out to just lie and made us waste many hours of interviews.
As for the why, I suspect one of the following:
- good candidates already have a job they love
- people are not willing to relocate (job is remote but inside one of the countries we are operating in, which is 80)
- there is simply not enough people in the field, which goes back to my first point
My view on this is that, unfortunately, blue team positions are seen as entry positions. In general blue team members have little autonomy. They don't chose the suite of tools, protocols and have little mandate in a company to change a single thing since they're a cost centre.
The job is frustrating because many socs are beholden to central IT to fix even high severity issues, this generates a lot of friction. Most organizations have a big feed of alerts that trigger on everything from ransomware, to a user plugging in a razor mouse... This makes the job frustrating and boring. Contrast this to red team positions. If they're lucky they get to cowboy all through the network never asking permission after initial sign-of. And why would they? Nobody spots what they're doing anyway, as long as you don't create problems in prod.
The job is frustrating because many socs are beholden to central IT to fix even high severity issues, this generates a lot of friction. Most organizations have a big feed of alerts that trigger on everything from ransomware, to a user plugging in a razor mouse... This makes the job frustrating and boring. Contrast this to red team positions. If they're lucky they get to cowboy all through the network never asking permission after initial sign-of. And why would they? Nobody spots what they're doing anyway, as long as you don't create problems in prod.
Those are very valid points. I had not thought of them. However, what you describe here really is not the reality of our team but I agree it’s the case in most places.
I work for a large multi-national in the entertainment industry with a really good work culture. We leave a lot of autonomy (we in fact expect people to become autonomous) and trust that we all know how to do our job. It has been very rewarding so far.
On the technical side, very few of our positions are entry level, some are but most are more advanced.
For example, we reached a maturity level where we don’t only build detection but we also build unit tests for them, either by making our own payloads or use and contribute to projects like Atomic Red Team. This requires excellent knowledge of OS internals, cloud security, system programming, etc.
Your comment makes me think we should try to reflect all of this in the job description to make the positions more appealing. There might be good candidates out there hesitating, thinking it’ll be like life in an MSSP SOC.
I work for a large multi-national in the entertainment industry with a really good work culture. We leave a lot of autonomy (we in fact expect people to become autonomous) and trust that we all know how to do our job. It has been very rewarding so far.
On the technical side, very few of our positions are entry level, some are but most are more advanced.
For example, we reached a maturity level where we don’t only build detection but we also build unit tests for them, either by making our own payloads or use and contribute to projects like Atomic Red Team. This requires excellent knowledge of OS internals, cloud security, system programming, etc.
Your comment makes me think we should try to reflect all of this in the job description to make the positions more appealing. There might be good candidates out there hesitating, thinking it’ll be like life in an MSSP SOC.
> My view on this is that, unfortunately, blue team positions are seen as entry positions. In general blue team members have little autonomy. They don't chose the suite of tools, protocols and have little mandate in a company to change a single thing since they're a cost centre.
And companies looking for experienced people somehow expect the pipeline of candidates that often come from such a typical environment to have all kinds of advanced skills already. Which obviously doesn't work, and thus they compete for the same small-ish talent pool (which has skills also applicable in plenty other roles too) instead of building that pool.
And companies looking for experienced people somehow expect the pipeline of candidates that often come from such a typical environment to have all kinds of advanced skills already. Which obviously doesn't work, and thus they compete for the same small-ish talent pool (which has skills also applicable in plenty other roles too) instead of building that pool.
- people are not willing to relocate (job is remote but inside one of the countries we are operating in, which is 80)
If you hire contractors you can hire people from anywhere - you don't need a business presence.
(This message is brought to you by a contractor living in the middle of nowhere).
If you hire contractors you can hire people from anywhere - you don't need a business presence.
(This message is brought to you by a contractor living in the middle of nowhere).
Unlikely to switch careers as I am an SWE already, but for my own learning, how does one learn the blue team side? Any recommended courses? I see far more penetration testing material out there.
If you don’t want to start in a junior position such as triaging, aim for things like detection engineering by learning OS internals (Windows or Linux), then also aim to learn the Win32 API. There are also lots of SOC and Blue Teams doing automation and orchestration where your existing skills could be handy.
I think people don’t want to work in blue team as it’s harder than red team. You need to keep watch 24/7 while red side just needs to get lucky
This, and the sibling answer, actually quite resonate with what I could be looking for! Is there any way to know more about the role(s)?
I've found architects to be extremely hard to find (both software and security). A good architect needs both wide technical experience (even if they have specialities) and great communication and documentation skills. Attention to detail and also big picture thinking.
It's not that hard to find architects, but it's insanely hard to find good ones. Although, that probably applies to pretty much any role.
It's not that hard to find architects, but it's insanely hard to find good ones. Although, that probably applies to pretty much any role.
Are you looking now as I will be soon, I've posted a bit about myself in this thread at this link https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30372383
We don't have fully remote I'm afraid. It's either London for security or New Jersey for software.
Windows Kernel devs... They seem to be a rare breed
I’ve tried a few times to wrap my head around the windows driver model, the KMDF/UMDF and related things a few times.
I’m guessing it’s an overall supply issue. It kinda seems like you have to accidentally end up working for an OEM or MS early on in your career, I’ve seen very few kernel dev jobs and almost always very senior
Otherwise, it’s not particularly amenable to hobbyists, while you can download the WDK, write and test drivers, you’re still kinda limited by the EV cert requirement and the fee communities out there with knowledge in this subject can be less than helpful sometimes (to the contrary Thou, I’ve gotten help from actually MS guys working on NDIS over on stack overflow and they were great).
Docs are ok, but depending on where you are can degrade pretty badly. There are a few things that aren’t well introduced. I didn’t actually understand INF files until stumbling across an ancient blogpost that spelled them out and I was rather horrified by what I learned.
I’m guessing it’s an overall supply issue. It kinda seems like you have to accidentally end up working for an OEM or MS early on in your career, I’ve seen very few kernel dev jobs and almost always very senior
Otherwise, it’s not particularly amenable to hobbyists, while you can download the WDK, write and test drivers, you’re still kinda limited by the EV cert requirement and the fee communities out there with knowledge in this subject can be less than helpful sometimes (to the contrary Thou, I’ve gotten help from actually MS guys working on NDIS over on stack overflow and they were great).
Docs are ok, but depending on where you are can degrade pretty badly. There are a few things that aren’t well introduced. I didn’t actually understand INF files until stumbling across an ancient blogpost that spelled them out and I was rather horrified by what I learned.
Yeah, it's a very hard field to master so finding people who know what they're doing is quite difficult
What kernel work are you doing?
Endpoint security. Mainly filter drivers, interdiction, sandboxing etc.
We'd love to hire a few senior java devs, especially folks who want to go soup-to-nuts (front to back end). We were trying to hire in Denver, CO, USA, but eventually expanded to all of the USA because we weren't getting the candidates we needed.
$CURJOB has a downloadable product, which is a different world than the SaaS jobs that are prevalent these days.
$CURJOB has a downloadable product, which is a different world than the SaaS jobs that are prevalent these days.
Security roles are really hard.
Assessor's that aren't just tool operators. Security architects that can threat model and deliver requirements, in the design phase. Anyone that has intersectional experience between security and external compliance is also a problem.
Assessor's that aren't just tool operators. Security architects that can threat model and deliver requirements, in the design phase. Anyone that has intersectional experience between security and external compliance is also a problem.
Engineering in APAC. India has become a competitive market, much of Asia has been capitalized by financial industry players and Australia has gone to the FAANGs. As a Us based startup with not shallow pockets, we still can't compete.
Tech co-founder for XR simulation project. I am looking for someone with 3D graphics/Virtual Reality/games experience on Android platform who will be comfortable with NDK and Godot engine.
Devops/cloud engineers that can do both.
Sr Frontend Engineer that can solve for complex logic as well as make things look good.
Sr Frontend Engineer that can solve for complex logic as well as make things look good.
There is only so much someone can specialise in. If a candidate reads a UX design book thats less time for the JS: another 100 corner cases book, and they’ll flunk those fussy tests with 90% instead of the other guys 99%.
Realistically for max pay they will learn less about design and up their coding game learn the next NZXT.js thing and Watnot and stay sharp for interviews as just a full stack dev doing just 5 different jobs.
Realistically for max pay they will learn less about design and up their coding game learn the next NZXT.js thing and Watnot and stay sharp for interviews as just a full stack dev doing just 5 different jobs.
I mean agree. And I didn't necessarily mean that we'd want the frontend dev to do production design work. However, a savy UI dev that can prototype useful UI's, as well as make production UIs look and interact like production designs seems reasonable.
good front-end engineer that can do 2 things:
- ui - logic
good devops engineer that can do 2 things:
- dev - ops
- ui - logic
good devops engineer that can do 2 things:
- dev - ops
As a JavaScript developer looking at startups a few months ago I noticed the hiring pains were largely self-inflicted.
The primary problem is that nobody knows what quality looks like. As a result everything is extremely beginner, based on the framework flavor of the moment, and then qualified against leet code nonsense or use of a million different tools. If that is the path you were taking the failure is predictable as the desired target is somebody too immature for writing a product and you not understanding why or caring for the difference.
You, as the hiring manager of the startup have to overcome biases if you want to be successful. Frontend stuff is still software. Treat it as such and look for maturity first before quibbling over technical minutiae. Can the candidate write software? Can they even write at all? Only then evaluate if they have frontend skills.
Only once your startup gets bigger and revenue is both certain and predictable can you relax and hiring the more commonly available immature developers.
The primary problem is that nobody knows what quality looks like. As a result everything is extremely beginner, based on the framework flavor of the moment, and then qualified against leet code nonsense or use of a million different tools. If that is the path you were taking the failure is predictable as the desired target is somebody too immature for writing a product and you not understanding why or caring for the difference.
You, as the hiring manager of the startup have to overcome biases if you want to be successful. Frontend stuff is still software. Treat it as such and look for maturity first before quibbling over technical minutiae. Can the candidate write software? Can they even write at all? Only then evaluate if they have frontend skills.
Only once your startup gets bigger and revenue is both certain and predictable can you relax and hiring the more commonly available immature developers.
Clojurists.
really? Where can I apply ?
To generalize, dull Spring Boot Cloud Netflix Angular jobs are a hard sell, but businesses that invest in slightly fringe technologies like Closure, Rust, Go, Vue.js, have good candidates at below market prices.
I am surprised this is not universally understood. There are people that would "code for food" if only it was in Elixir, Haskell or Forth.
I am surprised this is not universally understood. There are people that would "code for food" if only it was in Elixir, Haskell or Forth.
I'm curious which roles / skills others find most difficult to hire and details on why.