Tell HN: Did you know you can negotiate price on many things?
372 comments
Be warned that people are reciprocal. I had a business partner who would negotiate everything. We found that luck would turn against us. There would suddenly be added processes and bureaucracy. Partners backed out on verbal promises. People were turning down job offers or sleeping on the job. A banner we bought didn't include the banner stand because it wasn't "included in the price".
If you're generous to others, they may be generous to you. If you're cheap with others, they will definitely be cheap with you.
If you're generous to others, they may be generous to you. If you're cheap with others, they will definitely be cheap with you.
A hundred times this.
A guy I worked with figured out that you can negotiate everything, and did. He'd get pissed off at the bank charging him an overdraft fee and sit in the telephone queue to get his £20 back.
He took a cab on a business trip to Dubai, and the cabbie kept the meter going while filling up. He argued it and got the equivalent of 50p off.
He'd negotiate agreements with brokers and negotiate absolutely everything.
He pushed really hard on the partnership agreement.
In the end it was just toxic and people were turned off. You don't want to end up in a long conversation every time there's something to negotiate. It also makes everyone think you're going to be difficult.
A guy I worked with figured out that you can negotiate everything, and did. He'd get pissed off at the bank charging him an overdraft fee and sit in the telephone queue to get his £20 back.
He took a cab on a business trip to Dubai, and the cabbie kept the meter going while filling up. He argued it and got the equivalent of 50p off.
He'd negotiate agreements with brokers and negotiate absolutely everything.
He pushed really hard on the partnership agreement.
In the end it was just toxic and people were turned off. You don't want to end up in a long conversation every time there's something to negotiate. It also makes everyone think you're going to be difficult.
> In the end it was just toxic and people were turned off. You don't want to end up in a long conversation every time there's something to negotiate. It also makes everyone think you're going to be difficult.
this. i've been turned off by people when i've seen them push crazy contracts and generally have always believed that mutually beneficial relationships are based on both parties looking out for each other's best interests.
you should never have to haggle over money in any serious deal, having to do so is what they call a "big giant glowing red flag."
this. i've been turned off by people when i've seen them push crazy contracts and generally have always believed that mutually beneficial relationships are based on both parties looking out for each other's best interests.
you should never have to haggle over money in any serious deal, having to do so is what they call a "big giant glowing red flag."
Would you maintain this perspective in a corporate setting when negotiating a raise with an employer?
yes, i don't want to have to "negotiate" raises. that is a waste of time and energy that is better spent finding an employer that will just handle it professionally.
You are definitely not getting paid enough.
Well, the cabbie leaving the meter running while filling up is more standing up for yourself and not being taken advantage of. That's a task that should have taken place before picking up a fare (that they wouldn't normally be compensated for that time).
Absolutely everything can be construed as "I can't let you screw me".
This is what made it toxic.
Pick your battles.
This is what made it toxic.
Pick your battles.
Depends on the perspective. I think a reasonable person would expect not to be charged for a stop that was in the control of the driver.
Most haggling/negotiating being discussed here isn't about getting screwed with an unexpected fee, but about getting a better price before purchasing a service/item. This would be an unexpected fee if the driver didn't disclose this.
Most haggling/negotiating being discussed here isn't about getting screwed with an unexpected fee, but about getting a better price before purchasing a service/item. This would be an unexpected fee if the driver didn't disclose this.
No - a “reasonable” person wouldn’t be haggling over 50p because the driver stopped to get gas. I’ve never seen anyone - couldn’t even imagine it before I read this - reverse charging a driver because they stopped for gas on the way. Those are the kind of people the OP is talking about - what they’re doing is “technically” just standing up for their rights etc. But this person sounds extremely toxic to be around
Like in their example, 50p of cab meter charges is not much - I’m happy to have the cabbie keep it.
That's not much and many people might allow it. It's more about it being a surprise fee and delay.
Stopping for gas is a 50p “surprise fee” now :-D nice. And filling up the tank takes what - a couple mins? Smh
Did you have a point, or are you just violating HN policy?
My dude, I’m saying calling 50p a “surprise fee” is quite a stretch, and a couple minutes to fill up a tank isn’t a “delay”. What policy are you talking about - that I disagree with your summation? Didn’t know that was against the rules.
While technically true, I never mind such things.
Those cabbies are working-class people usually. They often have families, and need the extra money. All they get is usually a few extra dollars; which means a lot to them, but very little to us middle-class people, who would suffer no repercussions financially.
One could see the running meter as a form of a 'tip' or 'donation' - not everything has to be seen in the context of "being taken advantage of", which makes it very hard to live.
This is very different from surprise fees from banks and institutions, for which I can see how a person might feel taken advantage of.
Those cabbies are working-class people usually. They often have families, and need the extra money. All they get is usually a few extra dollars; which means a lot to them, but very little to us middle-class people, who would suffer no repercussions financially.
One could see the running meter as a form of a 'tip' or 'donation' - not everything has to be seen in the context of "being taken advantage of", which makes it very hard to live.
This is very different from surprise fees from banks and institutions, for which I can see how a person might feel taken advantage of.
Why would you tip someone who is doing the wrong thing by you? I know Americans have a broken viewpoint on this, but most of the world tip for good service. You're suggesting tipping for the opposite.
> One could see the running meter as a form of a 'tip' or 'donation'
Those ones piss me off the most, in this way you are rewarding cabs who do this and kind of penalizing the ones that don't. In that moment, I am doing 180 and no way I am going to give that person even a penny more than necessary.
Those ones piss me off the most, in this way you are rewarding cabs who do this and kind of penalizing the ones that don't. In that moment, I am doing 180 and no way I am going to give that person even a penny more than necessary.
Tips and donations are voluntary.
The worst example of this I ever encountered was people who would try to haggle with me when I worked at Staples.
Like dude I was a floor associate, not anywhere near someone who could change prices as listed.
Then, after multiple rounds of me insisting that the price was the price, my manager would come along and go "sure, we can give you a discount on that" and I look like a clown.
Like dude I was a floor associate, not anywhere near someone who could change prices as listed.
Then, after multiple rounds of me insisting that the price was the price, my manager would come along and go "sure, we can give you a discount on that" and I look like a clown.
Negotiating takes time. Time is money...
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Bank fees is absolutely something you can and should negotiate about. Late with a payment a day or two? Charged a fee? Call you bank, apologize and humbly ask for a fee to be waived. If you're a client in good standing, they're very likely to remove the fee. You just have to ask. Of course, if you abuse it, they can refuse, so do not ruin it.
Yup - I remember a customer who boasted how he always negotiated, and I didn't see the warning signs until it came time to pay my invoice!
We have a few customers like that - there's a column in the quote document with customer-specific adders.
There are a few that are somewhat innoccuous: New customer risk surcharge, automotive customer process hurdles surcharge, foreign customer customs surcharge...
But then there are the "5% surcharge to be removed later as a 'discount'", "Customer X 10% surcharge for extra negotiation and concepting rounds", and "Customer Y 25% surcharge for expected late payment hassles", and "Customer Z 33% surcharge for extra detail in the quote, additional project management, and expected scope bulldozing." They may feel they've 'won', but their extra work was priced in from the start...
There are a few that are somewhat innoccuous: New customer risk surcharge, automotive customer process hurdles surcharge, foreign customer customs surcharge...
But then there are the "5% surcharge to be removed later as a 'discount'", "Customer X 10% surcharge for extra negotiation and concepting rounds", and "Customer Y 25% surcharge for expected late payment hassles", and "Customer Z 33% surcharge for extra detail in the quote, additional project management, and expected scope bulldozing." They may feel they've 'won', but their extra work was priced in from the start...
I did this when I was webdev freelancer. I was doubling my price. Requesting half upfront then if the customer was well behaved and the project didn't have too much of unanticipated scope creep I gave generous discount in the end.
That gave me some well paying, well behaving, happy returning customers.
That gave me some well paying, well behaving, happy returning customers.
There are whole sitcoms devoted to this (idea of negotiating every price), at least 25 years aged.
And yeah in my experience being generous almost always produces discounts for everyone. I’m not gonna post it but my take is: did you know that workers generally know they’re not spending their own money, but enjoying as much of their leeway as possible with money they’ll never ever get paid on the job?
Tip your waitstaff and bartenders and basically everyone who will accept a tip y’all.
And yeah in my experience being generous almost always produces discounts for everyone. I’m not gonna post it but my take is: did you know that workers generally know they’re not spending their own money, but enjoying as much of their leeway as possible with money they’ll never ever get paid on the job?
Tip your waitstaff and bartenders and basically everyone who will accept a tip y’all.
Negotiation is the inverse of tipping.
An anecdote from 48 Laws of Power:
Akimoto Suzutomo, a wealthy adherent of the tea ceremony, once gave his page 100 ryo (gold pieces) and instructed him to purchase a tea bowl offered by a particular dealer. When the page saw the bowl, he doubted it was worth that much, and after much bargaining got the price reduced to 95 ryo. Days later, after Suzutomo had put the bowl to use, the page proudly told him what he had done. “What an ignoramus you are!” replied Suzutomo. “A tea bowl that anyone asks 100 pieces of gold for can only be a family heirloom, and a thing like that is only sold when the family is pressed for money. And in that case they will be hoping to find someone who will give even 150 pieces for it. So what sort of fellow is it who does not consider their feelings? Quite apart from that, a curio that you give 100 ryo for is something worth having, but one that has only cost 95 gives a mean impression. So never let me see that tea bowl again!” And he had the bowl locked away, and never took it out.
Akimoto Suzutomo, a wealthy adherent of the tea ceremony, once gave his page 100 ryo (gold pieces) and instructed him to purchase a tea bowl offered by a particular dealer. When the page saw the bowl, he doubted it was worth that much, and after much bargaining got the price reduced to 95 ryo. Days later, after Suzutomo had put the bowl to use, the page proudly told him what he had done. “What an ignoramus you are!” replied Suzutomo. “A tea bowl that anyone asks 100 pieces of gold for can only be a family heirloom, and a thing like that is only sold when the family is pressed for money. And in that case they will be hoping to find someone who will give even 150 pieces for it. So what sort of fellow is it who does not consider their feelings? Quite apart from that, a curio that you give 100 ryo for is something worth having, but one that has only cost 95 gives a mean impression. So never let me see that tea bowl again!” And he had the bowl locked away, and never took it out.
I don't really understand the story. the guy is trying to pay 100 for something he suspects a struggling family hopes to sell for 150, and he's mad that the page haggled off an additional 5?
For me the problem is: every time I drink tea from this bowl I'll be reminded that I took away 5 coins from a struggeling family. I rather pay 150 and for the rest of my life am rimended how I genrously helped a stuggeling family.
Yes.
Turns out that commercial transactions happen in a social context, and even when it doesn't come back to bite you financially, sometimes paying less has social costs that are far higher than what you "saved".
Turns out that commercial transactions happen in a social context, and even when it doesn't come back to bite you financially, sometimes paying less has social costs that are far higher than what you "saved".
right, I understand from thread context the conclusion I am supposed to draw. what I don't understand is the internal logic of the story. the guy is described as wealthy, and apparently is already taking advantage of a struggling family by offering 100 when he suspects they are hoping for 150. I'm inferring that anything in the 100s range of this currency is trivial to him. so why the outrage over the last 5 rather than the first 50?
The seller is presumably an aristocratic family fallen into hard times. They are selling a presumably rare and famous item. The buyer's agent haggled over the item instead of just stating a flat price they were willing to pay.
If the buyer displays the item, then elite of Feudal Japan will say "Poor so and so, they got taken advantaged of by a merciless nouveau riche. Make sure not to invite that person to our upper class parties. We may be poor compared to them; but we still have our samurai pride."
Edited for spelling.
If the buyer displays the item, then elite of Feudal Japan will say "Poor so and so, they got taken advantaged of by a merciless nouveau riche. Make sure not to invite that person to our upper class parties. We may be poor compared to them; but we still have our samurai pride."
Edited for spelling.
To note, honor meant a lot more during the samurai era. Someone who is not compassionate either comes across as manipulative or not alert to their surroundings. Manipulative people were bad allies. Inattention is a form of weakness. Dishonor wasn't just not being invited to parties, it could well mean death.
Additionally, paying a price of 100 means the payer does not _really_ care about the price, they just say "here's an expensive item that I totally can afford to buy, and don't care how much does it cost, let's just make it an arbitrary 100". Paying 95, however, means "I know _exactly_ how much it costs, and I am willing to spend my attention on haggling for the extra 5 (even if it's done by a servant, it still reflects on the owner), which means 5 is a substantial enough sum for me to care, which means I'm not as rich as I pretend to be".
It was an act of calculated generosity - buying something that wasn't really worth that much. But you can't negotiate and look generous at the same time. 5 ryo transformed the context from helping out a poor family to taking advantage of someone's poverty.
In this case, the listed price is the floor price, even though the seller agreed to less in the end. The expected price was unlisted.
With tipping, the floor price is actually higher than the listed price. Someone might agree to sell at a lower price, but below that floor price, it brings great dishonor.
In this case, the listed price is the floor price, even though the seller agreed to less in the end. The expected price was unlisted.
With tipping, the floor price is actually higher than the listed price. Someone might agree to sell at a lower price, but below that floor price, it brings great dishonor.
It's not about the money, it's about honor, and what different amounts mean to other people.
Funny story, waited in line at the grocery store while the lady in front of me was being handled by the cashier. Once all the groceries had been scanned, the cashier told the customer the total. The lady offered her about half of that. It completely confused the cashier who was not expecting someone to haggle. It went back and forth a few times and then the manager was called and I was helped in the next line over. I waited a while to see what would happen, and in the end the lady stomped out angrily and the manager had an employee restock all the stuff she had brought to the register. That was not a place where there was any price flexibility.
However, at the Farmer's market, there is a lot of price flexibility on products.
It is an excellent life skill to be able to distinguish between markets where prices are fixed and markets where they are flexible.
However, at the Farmer's market, there is a lot of price flexibility on products.
It is an excellent life skill to be able to distinguish between markets where prices are fixed and markets where they are flexible.
At our local farmer's market, I trust the farmers to negotiate for me.
They have seen me before, and they will often give me a little discount or throw some new thing into my bag to try.
Maybe I could get an extra buck or two off, but I have it pretty easy as a software developer working from home.
Farming and selling at farmer's markets is hard work. If I don't get the very best price, I figure that's a little tip for them.
Of course if I were buying in quantity I might see it differently. But for the bit of produce I buy, I'm happy to pay for quality.
And I bet that if I needed a larger quantity, they would offer me a good deal.
Part of negotiating is building relationships.
I'm not disagreeing with you, and I really enjoyed that strange grocery story. Just offering a related perspective.
They have seen me before, and they will often give me a little discount or throw some new thing into my bag to try.
Maybe I could get an extra buck or two off, but I have it pretty easy as a software developer working from home.
Farming and selling at farmer's markets is hard work. If I don't get the very best price, I figure that's a little tip for them.
Of course if I were buying in quantity I might see it differently. But for the bit of produce I buy, I'm happy to pay for quality.
And I bet that if I needed a larger quantity, they would offer me a good deal.
Part of negotiating is building relationships.
I'm not disagreeing with you, and I really enjoyed that strange grocery story. Just offering a related perspective.
The key to getting good deals at a farmers market is to show up near closing time.
The produce has already been picked; it's not like they can take it back and re-plant it. They will most probably just sell it in bulk to some mom-n-pop grocery store and head back to their farms. So you can score some really nice deals.
I did this when I was tight on cash for a month or two and needed to survive on the more bare minimum budget.
The produce has already been picked; it's not like they can take it back and re-plant it. They will most probably just sell it in bulk to some mom-n-pop grocery store and head back to their farms. So you can score some really nice deals.
I did this when I was tight on cash for a month or two and needed to survive on the more bare minimum budget.
> The produce has already been picked; it's not like they can take it back and re-plant it.
That is such an insightful comment; thank you!
And it's the best kind of negotiating. Not only do you get a good deal, it's a win for the farmer too.
That is such an insightful comment; thank you!
And it's the best kind of negotiating. Not only do you get a good deal, it's a win for the farmer too.
It’s not. Most of them make very little money. They sell their goods at multiple farmers markets.
I know many and they all complain about that rich assholes that do this thinking the food is just going to get thrown away.
I know many and they all complain about that rich assholes that do this thinking the food is just going to get thrown away.
> They sell their goods at multiple farmers markets.
Unless they invented some time-travel machine, it's impossible. Most farmers markets around these parts have similar hours: 9AM to 2PM or so.
So, if the farmer leaves the market at 2PM, where will they go? No farmers market is open after 2PM.
There goes your little theory.
Pro-tip: stop treating farmers like children who don't know what they're doing. You city people think you know it all, when in reality, you don't.
Unless they invented some time-travel machine, it's impossible. Most farmers markets around these parts have similar hours: 9AM to 2PM or so.
So, if the farmer leaves the market at 2PM, where will they go? No farmers market is open after 2PM.
There goes your little theory.
Pro-tip: stop treating farmers like children who don't know what they're doing. You city people think you know it all, when in reality, you don't.
You've raised some good points in your comments in this thread.
Can you please leave out the insults and adversarial style?
We try for respectful and polite conversation here, even when we disagree on something. That way we can learn from each other.
From the site guidelines:
> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Thanks, and I look forward to reading more of your insights!
Can you please leave out the insults and adversarial style?
We try for respectful and polite conversation here, even when we disagree on something. That way we can learn from each other.
From the site guidelines:
> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Thanks, and I look forward to reading more of your insights!
No comment on the dude calling me an "asshole"? I hate to say "he started it", but he clearly did. It irritates me when people show up with holier-than-thou attitudes, assuming others don't know what they're talking about (I'm referring to @david38, of course)
This is how I get all my cakes. At the end of the day at a donut or cake stand, most of the goods go in the trash.
Even if there is no price flexibility, the employee will often agree to sell you a cake for full price then give you a cake of similar value he was about to put in the trash for free. If they know you always tip and can convince themselves that their employer is also winning, they are highly incentivised to agree.
Sometimes people in a job like this will take the un-eaten cakes home, but in the end they can only find a home for so much free cake.
Even if there is no price flexibility, the employee will often agree to sell you a cake for full price then give you a cake of similar value he was about to put in the trash for free. If they know you always tip and can convince themselves that their employer is also winning, they are highly incentivised to agree.
Sometimes people in a job like this will take the un-eaten cakes home, but in the end they can only find a home for so much free cake.
The trick there, of course, is that you have to not want some of the stuff that sells out
This is a good way to piss off hard working people who don’t make much.
You clearly don’t know anything about how they operate.
You do know the vendors go to multiple farmers markets, right? You’re not saving anything from waste. Unless your particular farmers market is the last stop for that vendor, you’ll piss them off.
You clearly don’t know anything about how they operate.
You do know the vendors go to multiple farmers markets, right? You’re not saving anything from waste. Unless your particular farmers market is the last stop for that vendor, you’ll piss them off.
You know what happens when you ASSUME things?
You are ASSUMING that I offered them less money.
You are ASSUMING that I somehow forced them to do something they wouldn't do otherwise.
Reality is, they themselves offer great deals on whatever is left. No coercion required.
And last time I checked, it was a free world: I'm free to take their deal or not, and they're free to offer me one, or not.
And by the way: I learnt of this trick from farmers themselves.
You are ASSUMING that I offered them less money.
You are ASSUMING that I somehow forced them to do something they wouldn't do otherwise.
Reality is, they themselves offer great deals on whatever is left. No coercion required.
And last time I checked, it was a free world: I'm free to take their deal or not, and they're free to offer me one, or not.
And by the way: I learnt of this trick from farmers themselves.
The margins on a grocery store are very low, it would be crazy to try to haggle there.
In a farmer's market, they probably throw away half the produce, the margin is more in the quantity of goods than in the price, so it would always be better to try to get more goods for free than to put price down!
In a farmer's market, they probably throw away half the produce, the margin is more in the quantity of goods than in the price, so it would always be better to try to get more goods for free than to put price down!
> In a farmer's market, they probably throw away half the produce,
I don't think that any modern farm can sustain itself on farmers markets alone except when it's a hobby farm.
Everything not sold there will be sold to supermarkets in bulk. Farmer's markets are just a nice cherry on top where the margins are higher.
I don't think that any modern farm can sustain itself on farmers markets alone except when it's a hobby farm.
Everything not sold there will be sold to supermarkets in bulk. Farmer's markets are just a nice cherry on top where the margins are higher.
I worked on an organic vegetable farm for 5 years. 90% of their income came from direct farmer's market sales. We had the benefit of being able to remember what we sold last week, last year, etc. at farmer's market. We just planned based on that, and rarely ended up throwing away a substantial amount of produce. Lots of vegetables can be returned to cold storage and brought to a market the next day, too. Carrot & beet bunches with greens on them get topped and sold in 5lb bags. Onions, garlic, squash, potatoes, etc don't suffer from going to and from different markets. Salad greens can be more sensitive, but it depends on the weather and how they're displayed.
Also, a box of veg that was made well and truly unsaleable by a day at market would be thrown in the compost to be turned into next year's fertilizer.
The place I worked had ~10 acres in cultivation and grossed $200 - 300k. Their kids have college funds.
Also, a box of veg that was made well and truly unsaleable by a day at market would be thrown in the compost to be turned into next year's fertilizer.
The place I worked had ~10 acres in cultivation and grossed $200 - 300k. Their kids have college funds.
I think you’re assuming industrial agriculture? Smaller farms can and do survive on markets. Just because they might only be an acre doesn’t mean they’re a hobby farm; some of these are grossing well into 6 digit income.
I think arguing the definition of "hobby" farm is drifting from the point. Whether or not unsold food gets wasted is the more pertinent question, and I know the small farms I live near, as well as our own hobby farming, has very little waste. Between eating our own food, canning it, or recycling it to the chickens or livestock... not much gets thrown away.
Put into that context, there is absolutely a bottom to the price it is worth selling at. If you are offering less than its value as chicken food, we won't sell. Admittedly, that is still pretty cheap.
Put into that context, there is absolutely a bottom to the price it is worth selling at. If you are offering less than its value as chicken food, we won't sell. Admittedly, that is still pretty cheap.
They don’t. That would be a wildly stupid thing to do. They sell at multiple markets.
A local computer store here has a well known policy: If you ask for a better price, they'll come back with an offering 20% above list price. If you question it, it'll go up again.
Honestly I don't mind this. If a video card costs $100 and you're selling at $110 and someone says "I'll give you $50" and makes you devote an hour to the sale, they aren't worth it.
Honestly I don't mind this. If a video card costs $100 and you're selling at $110 and someone says "I'll give you $50" and makes you devote an hour to the sale, they aren't worth it.
A local computer store doesn't likely have a lot of flexibility on price. They're working on low margins and are competing in a tight market already with online sellers. They're going to argue that they're offering something other than price- whether that's support, return policies, supporting local, etc.
But many of the comments on here have been anti-haggling, which is another way to say "Anti-negotiation". The problem I see isn't negotiation but instead how the negotiation takes place.
Let's take this computer store as an example. If you're one customer and you're making a single purchase- this is a simple transactional relationship and it behooves the store to optimize against such customers.
But if you are a customer who has been buying from this store for 10 years and using them for all the computer needs of a small business, presumably they've built a relationship up, in which case the computer store should know that they're gaining a loyal high-volume customer- a valuable asset indeed.
This means they can negotiate on many things, price being only one. They could negotiate on a barter of services, or they could negotiate on a personal relationship that's built up, or they could negotiate on service.
A good negotiation rarely happens in a single transaction.
But many of the comments on here have been anti-haggling, which is another way to say "Anti-negotiation". The problem I see isn't negotiation but instead how the negotiation takes place.
Let's take this computer store as an example. If you're one customer and you're making a single purchase- this is a simple transactional relationship and it behooves the store to optimize against such customers.
But if you are a customer who has been buying from this store for 10 years and using them for all the computer needs of a small business, presumably they've built a relationship up, in which case the computer store should know that they're gaining a loyal high-volume customer- a valuable asset indeed.
This means they can negotiate on many things, price being only one. They could negotiate on a barter of services, or they could negotiate on a personal relationship that's built up, or they could negotiate on service.
A good negotiation rarely happens in a single transaction.
This reminds me of an imaginary situation I made up one time. Naturally I never leave my backpack with my laptops (yes, plural) in the car. So when I've shopped at a tech store like Fry's (remember them?!) I kept my pack on my back.
I wondered what I would do if they asked to search my backpack on the way out. My imaginary response was, "No problem. I charge a ten dollar search fee, which of course if fully refundable if you find I've stolen something. If you question my fee, it goes up to twenty bucks, non-refundable."
Alas, I never got a chance to follow through on this, but it was a fun thought experiment!
I wondered what I would do if they asked to search my backpack on the way out. My imaginary response was, "No problem. I charge a ten dollar search fee, which of course if fully refundable if you find I've stolen something. If you question my fee, it goes up to twenty bucks, non-refundable."
Alas, I never got a chance to follow through on this, but it was a fun thought experiment!
You could do that at places that check receipts such as Walmart, but not Costco as they can just terminate your membership.
I just walk by and usually they don't say anything, or if they do, I just reply "No thank you," as I am walking. Only one time a receipt checker actually (literally) yelled out, "That's not fair!" Everyone else just turns their attention to the next customer.
I just walk by and usually they don't say anything, or if they do, I just reply "No thank you," as I am walking. Only one time a receipt checker actually (literally) yelled out, "That's not fair!" Everyone else just turns their attention to the next customer.
Yep, at Fry's I used to let the exit checker wipe the pink pen on my receipt if no one else was in line, or maybe one person in front of me. It let them feel like they were doing their job, and it didn't cost me much time.
But if a few people were in line, I would just nod and smile and walk on by.
I never had an exit checker question this (they were trained not to!) but I did get a few dirty looks from other customers.
Sorry friends, it's not my fault if you don't know the rules. ;-)
Even Costco couldn't detain me if I didn't let them inspect my cart. But as you noted, they could refuse to let me shop there again.
Of course it would be my loss. Even if nothing else, the membership is worth it for the olive oil!
Did you happen to score any of the 2020 organic Val di Mazara? I've been a huge fan of their Toscana year after year, but the Val di Mazara is something else. Such a delightful peppery oil. I hope they get it again in the next harvest.
But if a few people were in line, I would just nod and smile and walk on by.
I never had an exit checker question this (they were trained not to!) but I did get a few dirty looks from other customers.
Sorry friends, it's not my fault if you don't know the rules. ;-)
Even Costco couldn't detain me if I didn't let them inspect my cart. But as you noted, they could refuse to let me shop there again.
Of course it would be my loss. Even if nothing else, the membership is worth it for the olive oil!
Did you happen to score any of the 2020 organic Val di Mazara? I've been a huge fan of their Toscana year after year, but the Val di Mazara is something else. Such a delightful peppery oil. I hope they get it again in the next harvest.
There are a number of cases of people being arrested or assaulted for not showing receipts.
https://kfor.com/news/man-suing-costco-for-670000-after-refu...
The fact that you think they don't have the right, even if you are correct, does not mean it won't happen.
https://kfor.com/news/man-suing-costco-for-670000-after-refu...
The fact that you think they don't have the right, even if you are correct, does not mean it won't happen.
You raise a good point.
If an exit checker ever did say "Wait! Stop!" of course I would be friendly and let them check my receipt.
This would be the simplest solution, as my goal was not to prove a point about my rights, but simply to exit the store in an expeditious way with the merchandise I paid for.
But they never did question me, so it was never a situation I had to worry about.
If an exit checker ever did say "Wait! Stop!" of course I would be friendly and let them check my receipt.
This would be the simplest solution, as my goal was not to prove a point about my rights, but simply to exit the store in an expeditious way with the merchandise I paid for.
But they never did question me, so it was never a situation I had to worry about.
Interesting, I've never heard of exit receipt checking before. Where I live (in Europe) it doesn't seem to be a thing.
Every now and then I'll be shopping and the security device by the door will beep as I'm walking out, even though I haven't stolen anything. I always just assume there's been a mistake, e.g. the cashier forgot to deactivate my security tag, and walk straight on out; I'm not going to waste my time being searched when I know I haven't done anything wrong.
This doesn't happen very often but as far as I can remember I've never been challenged when I do it.
But what I find really interesting is: based on what I've written above, isn't it trivially easy to guess my skin color?
This doesn't happen very often but as far as I can remember I've never been challenged when I do it.
But what I find really interesting is: based on what I've written above, isn't it trivially easy to guess my skin color?
Most stores have explicit policies not to chase people even when they visually observed shoplifting. It creates too many problems — it’s easier and safer to just turn the video over to the police.
Those security devices are generally there to scare potential thieves not actually detain or prevent them from leaving, so your anecdote doesn’t actually show anything interesting.
Those security devices are generally there to scare potential thieves not actually detain or prevent them from leaving, so your anecdote doesn’t actually show anything interesting.
> But what I find really interesting is: based on what I've written above, isn't it trivially easy to guess my skin color?
Nope. Maybe it would be if I the reader were in a country where people are stopped exiting a store based on race, but thankfully the vast majority of the world isn't like that.
Nope. Maybe it would be if I the reader were in a country where people are stopped exiting a store based on race, but thankfully the vast majority of the world isn't like that.
I’ve wanted to try this strategy when buying a used car from a dealership. Offer them a good price, and if they counter, reduce my offer.
It really depends on who relies on whom. It looks like they are doing fine and can remove unwanted business as they wish.
I for one won't even touch this shop unless absolutely necessary. There are tons of alternatives online/offline. Good luck with your business.
I for one won't even touch this shop unless absolutely necessary. There are tons of alternatives online/offline. Good luck with your business.
We've had local business owners come in before that have tried to haggle with us. Even had one specifically point out repeatedly that he ran a business so he knew how it worked. Wouldn't take no for an answer.
It frustrates me to no end when someone doesn't understand the word "no".
It frustrates me to no end when someone doesn't understand the word "no".
A friend (small business owner) had this excellent retort when confronted by some particularly aggressive faux-sympathy-mongering:
> Oh, really, you're a small business owner too? Then you should know better.
> Oh, really, you're a small business owner too? Then you should know better.
There are people who ALWAYS want to negotiate. It's a reality that sellers/buyers have to accept. I usually stop after one "No" because I'm very bad at haggling, but I know a lot of examples that people get what they want even after multiple "No"s. Some people are good at this.
“No soup for you. Come back, one year.”
Personally I don’t like to negotiate with farmers. They’re usually family run and is rather they make a good living. At car dealerships like autonation? Oh fuck that, I’ll fight for every dollar!
Median farming family in the US are millionaires, and it's not a good thing they're family-owned any more than a used car dealership or small landlord is. They're both in the same class of landed gentry/small business owners, except farmers get more tax breaks.
As you can learn from @SarahTaber_bww, they're also the most likely to use slave labor because small businesses can't afford HR departments.
As you can learn from @SarahTaber_bww, they're also the most likely to use slave labor because small businesses can't afford HR departments.
Are you sure that applies to farmers at farmer's markets? The farmers at the farmer's market that I personally know are not that wealthy and have farms on dozens of acres. Re: slave labor, you might be talking about farmers that have thousands of acres, selling at large scale, who need to hire a lot of hands.
Also, "millionaire" seems a bit misleading here. A family farm that's passed down might have a million in assets, but that gets eaten up quickly when you count land, vehicles, livestock, etc. It doesn't necessarily mean someone is living like a king with dispensable income.
However, I'm definitely ignorant about the data when it comes to this, so I'll take a closer look!
Also, "millionaire" seems a bit misleading here. A family farm that's passed down might have a million in assets, but that gets eaten up quickly when you count land, vehicles, livestock, etc. It doesn't necessarily mean someone is living like a king with dispensable income.
However, I'm definitely ignorant about the data when it comes to this, so I'll take a closer look!
Is this true for farmers in farmers markets? I think this might be the case for large scale farming. Most farmers I see in my farmers market have relatively small land.
My hypothesis is that if they’re big enough they don’t need to deal with the small quantities at farmers markets.
And car dealerships, especially the chains are absolutely not in the same bucket.
My hypothesis is that if they’re big enough they don’t need to deal with the small quantities at farmers markets.
And car dealerships, especially the chains are absolutely not in the same bucket.
Nice sounding aphorism that's probably false: it's not a market if the price is fixed. It's a cartel
Just be ethical about it.
If you are a tourist in the global south, and you negotiate down the price of some craft/souvenir/whatever you are buying on the side of the road, you will be able to buy an extra cup of coffee back home, but the person there might have to stand in the sun and away from their family for 4 more hours.
Don't let the well-being of others all in the hands of "the market".
If you are a tourist in the global south, and you negotiate down the price of some craft/souvenir/whatever you are buying on the side of the road, you will be able to buy an extra cup of coffee back home, but the person there might have to stand in the sun and away from their family for 4 more hours.
Don't let the well-being of others all in the hands of "the market".
If you're a tourist in many developing countries you're gonna get charged 200 - 500% of the price a local would pay anyway, so haggle away. Whatever you end up paying is almost certainly going to be way over the going rate, especially in a tourist area. If you're outside the tourist area then things might be different and people are more chill, likely to treat you as a customer instead of a mark. Also depends on the country of course. And should go without saying to treat the people you're haggling with with respect and kindness - if they don't reciprocate then bring your business elsewhere. Don't reward shitty behavior just because someone is poor.
Source: I've lived in a developing country for long enough to work out how much things actually cost.
Source: I've lived in a developing country for long enough to work out how much things actually cost.
Yeah but the thing is the money doesn't really matter to me.
I remember being at a stall (I think it was in Istanbul) and picking out these beautiful scarves for some people back home.
They probably were marked up 500% from the local price but they were still super cheap, like $5/each. When the guy gave me the final price I rounded up and gave him bills in the local currency (it was probably an extra dollar or two USD) but the guy was just super super happy.
The extra couple of bucks for me was meaningless, but, definitely improved his mood and hopefully improved his life.
Plus, now, each gift came with a story to tell.
On the other hand, I bought a rug while there and did not negotiate enough and when I got home my turkish colleagues laughed at me :(
I remember being at a stall (I think it was in Istanbul) and picking out these beautiful scarves for some people back home.
They probably were marked up 500% from the local price but they were still super cheap, like $5/each. When the guy gave me the final price I rounded up and gave him bills in the local currency (it was probably an extra dollar or two USD) but the guy was just super super happy.
The extra couple of bucks for me was meaningless, but, definitely improved his mood and hopefully improved his life.
Plus, now, each gift came with a story to tell.
On the other hand, I bought a rug while there and did not negotiate enough and when I got home my turkish colleagues laughed at me :(
Good, just be you.
Sadly I notice some haggling tourism, people are being misled by blog posts and vlogs that the culture there is to haggle and that the seller respect you more when you haggle. I find that to be totally unsettling.
I am a local in a developing country, with an upper middle class income, I do not haggle, I give extra tips, my friends from similar income level do so too, some do for things I do not tip for. If you are a tourist and wanna have a local authentic experience you probably should match the behavior of the people of that nation with same income level as you not of the vast majority that can happen to be poor.
Also I won't trust diaspora colleagues, just like how Italians will always insist that the pizza you've ate in Italy was not up to standard and not a real pizza just a round piece of bread with vegetables on top of it and the real pizza is on mr mario's pizzeria in the luigi street in Milan, all diaspora of the world do the same.
Sadly I notice some haggling tourism, people are being misled by blog posts and vlogs that the culture there is to haggle and that the seller respect you more when you haggle. I find that to be totally unsettling.
I am a local in a developing country, with an upper middle class income, I do not haggle, I give extra tips, my friends from similar income level do so too, some do for things I do not tip for. If you are a tourist and wanna have a local authentic experience you probably should match the behavior of the people of that nation with same income level as you not of the vast majority that can happen to be poor.
Also I won't trust diaspora colleagues, just like how Italians will always insist that the pizza you've ate in Italy was not up to standard and not a real pizza just a round piece of bread with vegetables on top of it and the real pizza is on mr mario's pizzeria in the luigi street in Milan, all diaspora of the world do the same.
In places where tourism season only lasts for a few months, cost of living for the off-season is included in that 200-500% inflation.
Local people live in these places too and they stay there all year round. The woman selling crispy snacks to tourists at 500% markup will also sell them to locals for the normal price all year round, just as crispy snack sellers do in non tourist areas. It's different for the souvenir sellers of course.
This doesn't discount the real poverty that exists in many countries, and I'm not dismissing that. But if you're seeing poverty in a tourist area it probably means it's ten times worse in the places where tourists don't go and you're not going to solve that by stressing out over whether you should feel guilty for haggling or not. It's not your job to solve poverty in places you visit and feeling like you should is more a case of "Western guilt" than anything else.
You'll have a much more lasting impact, and gain much more, by seeking out human interactions that are not purely financial, sharing your culture and experiences with theirs, than you ever will by buying tourist crap in every place you go.
This doesn't discount the real poverty that exists in many countries, and I'm not dismissing that. But if you're seeing poverty in a tourist area it probably means it's ten times worse in the places where tourists don't go and you're not going to solve that by stressing out over whether you should feel guilty for haggling or not. It's not your job to solve poverty in places you visit and feeling like you should is more a case of "Western guilt" than anything else.
You'll have a much more lasting impact, and gain much more, by seeking out human interactions that are not purely financial, sharing your culture and experiences with theirs, than you ever will by buying tourist crap in every place you go.
Adding to that, the worst part is if you're living in a developing country and are paid just a local salary. You're still charged >300% because everyone assumes you're some rich western dude, but I certainly wasn't. It was a real drag.
The struggle is real. But something that made me feel a bit better was learning that my partner also gets overcharged even though she's local - but she comes from another region with a different accent. Not quite as badly overcharged as me, maybe she gets charged 200% while I get 300%, but still.
There's also a few street vendors who don't overcharge, they're lovely and I make sure to remember them and go back. Not something you can do as a tourist though.
There's also a few street vendors who don't overcharge, they're lovely and I make sure to remember them and go back. Not something you can do as a tourist though.
So the locals can’t work on something else in the off season?
They “can”, but have you asked yourself why are they working shitty precarious jobs in the first place?
It’s not like their economies are that dynamic and have the liquidity to absorb most of them with decent stable jobs.
We like to forget but it only takes a year like 2008 to remind us.
It’s not like their economies are that dynamic and have the liquidity to absorb most of them with decent stable jobs.
We like to forget but it only takes a year like 2008 to remind us.
That is, unfortunately, correct in many instances. Jobs are not an infinite resource.
The dealer will not charge less than he can afford. He’s not being coerced into beggary. There is clearly a market. And tourists will still overpay as they always do.
It’s not the tourist’s job to worry about the knick knack dealer’s finances. That’s patronizing, presumptuous, and shows a lack of boundaries. Unless you’re dealing with a beggar where a transaction may be merely symbolic, I don’t even see a legitimate opportunity for charity here. Even then, you could still contribute to entrenching poverty by encouraging a tourist culture that inculcates dependence on charity. Authentic charity and generosity are governed by reason, not sentiment.
It’s not the tourist’s job to worry about the knick knack dealer’s finances. That’s patronizing, presumptuous, and shows a lack of boundaries. Unless you’re dealing with a beggar where a transaction may be merely symbolic, I don’t even see a legitimate opportunity for charity here. Even then, you could still contribute to entrenching poverty by encouraging a tourist culture that inculcates dependence on charity. Authentic charity and generosity are governed by reason, not sentiment.
I still disagree with excessive haggling in developing countries, as a tourist. Whatever you haggle, it’s never more than a few dollars - like GP said, worth nothing to you, but everything to them.
This doesn't change the original point whatsoever.
I can't help sharing one of my favourite haggling anecdotes here. I was in a jewellery market in Mexico City, waiting for a friend to return from the toilets, so I spent some time looking over the goods of a stall and looking at one silver bracelet. The stall keeper noticed and told me it was (not the actual prices) 500 pesos. I tell him I'm not really interested. He says 250, I tell him I'm still not interested. 150, still not interested. He says he needs to "check with his boss" and walks off around the corner (there may or may not have been a boss) and comes back with 100 pesos. At this point I figure, well it'll make a nice present for someone and accept...
I don't think he lost out as I legitimately had no interest in buying before he haggled himself down that low, but it was an interesting lesson in how far haggling can go in some circumstances...
I don't think he lost out as I legitimately had no interest in buying before he haggled himself down that low, but it was an interesting lesson in how far haggling can go in some circumstances...
This is what a haggling culture actually looks like. There's an assumption in this thread that in all "non-Western" cultures, haggling is the norm. But I think it's important for the seller to imply consent first.
Haggling is the asking for consent part. Are you suggesting that "can I haggle with you?" is somehow more polite than "would you sell it for $x"?
I think it's honestly kind of infantilizing to assume someone who is selling goods for a living is going to be somehow tricked or manipulated into selling at a price they do not want to sell at.
I think it's honestly kind of infantilizing to assume someone who is selling goods for a living is going to be somehow tricked or manipulated into selling at a price they do not want to sell at.
It's not about manipulation, but manners. Where I live, you literally do ask, "Is this the final price?" Or a lengthier way might be, "This is a beautiful thing and I would love to have it! But alas, it is beyond my budget."
Most cultures are not as direct as American. In the US, it's a virtue to save time instead of dancing around the question. But in some cultures, dancing around the question is a mark of respect. You first acknowledge that the seller has been generous and then ask them for further generosity.
Most cultures are not as direct as American. In the US, it's a virtue to save time instead of dancing around the question. But in some cultures, dancing around the question is a mark of respect. You first acknowledge that the seller has been generous and then ask them for further generosity.
And in some cultures, "would you do it for $x?" is totally normal and expected, including the US in some contexts (like Craigslist or a used car lot).
For the seller to imply consent? There's another article on here about "No" being a complete sentence. The seller is not forced to haggle at all, they just have to repeat the same price.
If you want to re-experience this goto the mall and find one of those kiosks where they sell weird junk. If they are sort of aggressive and coming at you chances are they will play the haggle game. If it is some bored kid on their cell, probably not. When I was younger I would goto garage sales and haggle with people. It was semi fun and a interesting learning experience. It was my first hands on experience with a core CS concept of divide and conquer. I would offer half and we would bisect into the middle to find the real price we wanted.
Also the sales technique that seller used on you is called anchoring. The fun ones are the ones who disappear again and come out with a 'damaged' one that they can not sell but will cut you a deal on. That is usually the next step on that train of bargaining that seller was using.
Most things are not really worth haggling over. Big ticket items, sometimes yeah. Small things not as much. Also know where you are. Some places you are expected to do it. Others it is the sticker on the shelf move along...
Also the sales technique that seller used on you is called anchoring. The fun ones are the ones who disappear again and come out with a 'damaged' one that they can not sell but will cut you a deal on. That is usually the next step on that train of bargaining that seller was using.
Most things are not really worth haggling over. Big ticket items, sometimes yeah. Small things not as much. Also know where you are. Some places you are expected to do it. Others it is the sticker on the shelf move along...
I'm convinced that these are the kind of profit margins on products in "the west" as well, but without the haggling.
I guess you're referring to items like these? https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MX572ZM/A/apple-mac-pr...
I tried the "just pay the price they're asking for their bobble, it's inconsequential to me anyway" at a little market in Botswana. It caused a big fight with a few vendors because they were sure the one I randomly chose had some scheme going to get me to just give them money since I didn't haggle. After that disaster, it became clear that most of those tourist markets expect you to haggle.
I had the same experience in a European country. I was visiting family and they intervened on my behalf luckily.
Romania? If not I'd love to know where.
As a romanian this makes me curious why you thought is Romania, haha.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but Romanians have a very strong haggling tradition. I've personally only been two weeks in Romania, but even in other European countries the Romanian vendors would recognize my wife as Romanian and begin haggling with her in Romanian.
I guess older people do that in farmers market or when trying to sell used stuff - some real estate can be negociated too, but usually the seller mentions it in the ad. Other than that, it's kinda weird to negociate stuff in stores or for services, at least for me, a 30yo male.
What an odd example, those cultures people expect haggling and they will dramatically increase the starting price if you're a Westerner. You could be asked to pay 10x what they'd be willing to sell it for. You absolutely should haggle if for no other reason than to experience their culture a bit deeper.
It's far from being rude or inconsiderate—especially not "unethical".
It's far from being rude or inconsiderate—especially not "unethical".
> they will dramatically increase the starting price if you're a Westerner.
The point is that due to the large different in wealth, the increase is "dramatic" for them, but probably neglible for you.
Why not make someone's life a tiny bit better by not pressuring some some small time vendor in a country with less than a third of the GDP per capita than yours into giving up their share of the wealth that tourism is supposed to bring. Otherwise: what is the point of tourism for a host country?
Imagine making 80k/year, paying $100/night for the hotel you are now stepping out of and then haggling with someone who maybe makes 10k/year over the price of a $30 hat that you would pay $59.99 for if you were to buy it in the US and that takes $5 to produce.
I personally don't just find it rude, I find it entitled.
Negotiating prices within "those cultures" make sense when the playing field is somewhat level. Don't exoticize and take advantage of it.
> You absolutely should haggle if for no other reason than to experience their culture a bit deeper.
That is just offensive. Go to a nice restaurant, enjoy their food, see a museum, enjoy the sights. Haggling is not at the core of anyone's culture.
Imagine a Thai person going to Olive Garden for the immersively american experience of tipping their waiters - and even that makes the tinies bit of sense, because at least in that transaction money flows in the right direction.
The point is that due to the large different in wealth, the increase is "dramatic" for them, but probably neglible for you.
Why not make someone's life a tiny bit better by not pressuring some some small time vendor in a country with less than a third of the GDP per capita than yours into giving up their share of the wealth that tourism is supposed to bring. Otherwise: what is the point of tourism for a host country?
Imagine making 80k/year, paying $100/night for the hotel you are now stepping out of and then haggling with someone who maybe makes 10k/year over the price of a $30 hat that you would pay $59.99 for if you were to buy it in the US and that takes $5 to produce.
I personally don't just find it rude, I find it entitled.
Negotiating prices within "those cultures" make sense when the playing field is somewhat level. Don't exoticize and take advantage of it.
> You absolutely should haggle if for no other reason than to experience their culture a bit deeper.
That is just offensive. Go to a nice restaurant, enjoy their food, see a museum, enjoy the sights. Haggling is not at the core of anyone's culture.
Imagine a Thai person going to Olive Garden for the immersively american experience of tipping their waiters - and even that makes the tinies bit of sense, because at least in that transaction money flows in the right direction.
Right, so paying 15$ for a coconut at the beach of some tropical country, while you're literally surrounded by them, because that's what you're used to pay in Manhattan. I don't know if you realize how patronizing you come off as. Why buy the thing at all? Why not just give them your money? I'm serious. It's equally offensive to locals to see foreigners inflating prices for no other reasons than they can. Paying as close to the local price you can manage is part of the experience of respectfully visiting another culture. Try not to export your pricing habits and consumerism. Entire neighborhoods have become unaffordable to locals due to this mentality. If you want to help, find creative ways to spend the money. Plenty of local communities and villages would welcome your gifts. No need to disguise them behind a transaction.
Your last line betrays your entire point, that for some reason money flowing one direction is "right" and it flowing less (but still flowing) is wrong.
Perhaps just worry about how you spend your money and stop projecting morality onto other people whose circumstances and needs you know nothing about.
Perhaps just worry about how you spend your money and stop projecting morality onto other people whose circumstances and needs you know nothing about.
> whose circumstances and needs you know nothing about.
I think the circumstances "tourist haggling with vendor" and needs "tourist wants to experice other culture" where very well established. Whether or not I know anything about this, is an assumption that you are making without knowing anything about me.
Of course how and why and where money is spent is stock-full of morality and ethics. That's not an idea that I privately came up with myself.
I think the circumstances "tourist haggling with vendor" and needs "tourist wants to experice other culture" where very well established. Whether or not I know anything about this, is an assumption that you are making without knowing anything about me.
Of course how and why and where money is spent is stock-full of morality and ethics. That's not an idea that I privately came up with myself.
I always make a large donation to a credible non-profit or two after visiting a third-world country that pales in comparison to the amount I would've paid to street vendors ripping me off.
That puts my money to far better use.
BTW my wife is from a very poor country and she would laugh at anyones face for paying full price to a vendor. It doesn't make you "ethical" it makes you stupid in her mind.
That puts my money to far better use.
BTW my wife is from a very poor country and she would laugh at anyones face for paying full price to a vendor. It doesn't make you "ethical" it makes you stupid in her mind.
> BTW my wife is from a very poor country and she would laugh at anyones face for paying full price to a vendor. It doesn't make you "ethical" it makes you stupid in her mind.
I was thinking along the same lines a while ago. Then I realized something, please pass this along if you want:
No, they're not stupid. They just have money and they don't care that much. You're poor (or were and that memory lingers) and stressed out and they just want to relax.
By and large rich people are as smart as poor people and are on average better educated. If they're doing something "dumb" constantly, you don't understand their world, especially this Iron Triangle of Activities:
Time - Stress - Money
any activity is somehow paid. With either your time or your stress or your money.
Poor people pay with time or stress, smart rich people convert those frequently into money.
I was thinking along the same lines a while ago. Then I realized something, please pass this along if you want:
No, they're not stupid. They just have money and they don't care that much. You're poor (or were and that memory lingers) and stressed out and they just want to relax.
By and large rich people are as smart as poor people and are on average better educated. If they're doing something "dumb" constantly, you don't understand their world, especially this Iron Triangle of Activities:
Time - Stress - Money
any activity is somehow paid. With either your time or your stress or your money.
Poor people pay with time or stress, smart rich people convert those frequently into money.
I have friends from "poor" countries and they see paying full price like paying 20% on tips.
For some it's acceptable, and for others it's not.
For some it's acceptable, and for others it's not.
If they're still poor, sure.
If they now make a decent developed country salary, haggling in a poor country over 0.0001% of your monthly salary is probably not an efficient use of their time, but old (irrational now) habits die hard.
If they now make a decent developed country salary, haggling in a poor country over 0.0001% of your monthly salary is probably not an efficient use of their time, but old (irrational now) habits die hard.
Adjusting prices according to local purchasing power is a reality in the business. Amazon prime, Netflix, iCloud are the first ones coming in to my mind.
Why wouldn't poor street seller take advantage of it?
Disagree. Just negotiate.
As a foreigner you're going to pay a premium anyways no matter how hard you negotiate.
If you don't negotiate, that just becomes the "price you can get from foreigners", so the starting point gets jacked up. Soon enough it becomes the place tourists avoid.
As a foreigner you're going to pay a premium anyways no matter how hard you negotiate.
If you don't negotiate, that just becomes the "price you can get from foreigners", so the starting point gets jacked up. Soon enough it becomes the place tourists avoid.
If you pay too much you spoil it for everyone. Vendadores don't work for themselves so no matter how much money you give them - they have to stand in the sun.
Aren't they marked up if they know you're a foreigner.
I used to have this mindset... but then I realised that even if they charge e.g. $25 to a local and $50 to me, I'm not personally worse off.
There is little benefit to me in bargaining my way down to $25 - yeah they might think they've conned me, but (as long as it's not factory made junk) I'm happy to pay $50 for something that I like, even if I could negotiate it down to $25. The $25 saved simply doesn't mean that much to me in the grand scheme of things, but most likely does to them.
There is little benefit to me in bargaining my way down to $25 - yeah they might think they've conned me, but (as long as it's not factory made junk) I'm happy to pay $50 for something that I like, even if I could negotiate it down to $25. The $25 saved simply doesn't mean that much to me in the grand scheme of things, but most likely does to them.
If you don’t negotiate when negotiating is the norm, seems like you might find yourself surrounded by venders pretty quickly
I have to buy many online goods in USD with my devalued currency. Isn’t that the same?
Not really. With these souvenir shops etc they have a baseline price X for locals and then a price Y for tourists where the price Y is deliberately higher.
In the case of online goods they have a price X in USD because that is the currency the seller has / uses. They sell it to everyone at that price, they don't upcharge people who have to convert currencies.
Now, it is very well possible that those people will have to pay quite a lot for it, but that's because they buy from a seller based in a region that's financially better off and as such has higher prices in general, not because the seller tries to get as much as possible out of them.
In the case of online goods they have a price X in USD because that is the currency the seller has / uses. They sell it to everyone at that price, they don't upcharge people who have to convert currencies.
Now, it is very well possible that those people will have to pay quite a lot for it, but that's because they buy from a seller based in a region that's financially better off and as such has higher prices in general, not because the seller tries to get as much as possible out of them.
They sell it to USD to everyone, but price discrimination is real and people absolutely pay widely different amounts for the same physical (and digital) products online all the time. Purchaser's country can definitely be taken into account.
Living off turists is the most negative value thibg you can do. They spun a bracelet in 5 minutes and want a weeks wages for it. It's always a scam and you should never support it, food and lodging is enough spending as it is.
Some cultures expect you to haggle and to not would be an insult.
An oft-repeated aphorism by travelling westerners so they can justify negotiating over $1, but I have yet to actually come across someone who would be genuinely offended by not haggling.
It's not all cultures, only some. Others in this thread have given first hand accounts of how not haggling has caused trouble.
Someone said that not haggling caused the neighbouring vendors to be upset (presumably jealous at not hitting the jackpot).
Can you point me to the cultures where not haggling caused offense?
Can you point me to the cultures where not haggling caused offense?
There is some confusion here. There is no moral obligation of the sort that you are claiming .
Speak to a tour guide in these countries and he will tell you that many tourists from western countries that don’t have a culture of bargaining vastly overpay for many things that are marked up precisely because the locals know tourists don’t know any better. Even if they did, they would still make a profit.
People in the “global south” aren’t stupid. They are much better at playing the bargaining game than westerners. You are no match for their hustling. They will tell you when they cannot go any lower and will not sell for less than that amount. Even that amount is bound to make them a nice profit. It’s not like you’re fleecing them or coercing them into loss. They will not sell below what they can afford. Why would they?
If you want to be generous, be generous, but even generosity can be misguided and foolish, even condescending in its presuppositions (westerners often have patronizing views of the “third world”). Charity has its place. (Look at the effects of mitumba in Africa or free rice in Haiti for example of misplaced charity.) Ethically speaking, justice does not bind us to refrain from bargaining because there is nothing unjust about it.
Speak to a tour guide in these countries and he will tell you that many tourists from western countries that don’t have a culture of bargaining vastly overpay for many things that are marked up precisely because the locals know tourists don’t know any better. Even if they did, they would still make a profit.
People in the “global south” aren’t stupid. They are much better at playing the bargaining game than westerners. You are no match for their hustling. They will tell you when they cannot go any lower and will not sell for less than that amount. Even that amount is bound to make them a nice profit. It’s not like you’re fleecing them or coercing them into loss. They will not sell below what they can afford. Why would they?
If you want to be generous, be generous, but even generosity can be misguided and foolish, even condescending in its presuppositions (westerners often have patronizing views of the “third world”). Charity has its place. (Look at the effects of mitumba in Africa or free rice in Haiti for example of misplaced charity.) Ethically speaking, justice does not bind us to refrain from bargaining because there is nothing unjust about it.
> Look at the effects of mitumba in Africa or free rice in Haiti for example of misplaced charity.
I’m not familiar with the details of these specific examples, but I imagine it’s parallel to the problems created by Toms giving away shoes in Africa that they’ve shipped in. They actually do a lot of harm because they’ve displaced local economy —- from shoe makers to the sources of material for the shoes etc. In an effort to be charitable they’ve actually destroyed livelihoods and taken food off of people’s tables. If they really wanted to do charitable good they could employ the shoe makers and use local raw materials for those shoes.
To negotiate successfully: a) you have to know what you want b) you have to ask for what you want c) you have to be willing to walk away if you don't get it.
None of that is as simple as it sounds. "I want the best price" is not knowing what you want, it's requesting a 5% discount that patronizes you. Asking for what you want doesn't mean "give me X for $Y", it means building a rapport with the seller first, and usually negotiating over multiple items to get a positive-sum result. And being willing to walk away is really hard if you don't research, build up alternate options, and are genuinely OK with throwing what may be hours, days, weeks on the negotiation in favor of your alternative.
If someone gives you a huge discount just because you strolled up and immediately asked for it, honestly, it's not that you're a good negotiator, it's more likely that they're a bad negotiator, and by sheer virtue of even trying, you have exposed their lack of skill. You shouldn't consider that to be typical.
None of that is as simple as it sounds. "I want the best price" is not knowing what you want, it's requesting a 5% discount that patronizes you. Asking for what you want doesn't mean "give me X for $Y", it means building a rapport with the seller first, and usually negotiating over multiple items to get a positive-sum result. And being willing to walk away is really hard if you don't research, build up alternate options, and are genuinely OK with throwing what may be hours, days, weeks on the negotiation in favor of your alternative.
If someone gives you a huge discount just because you strolled up and immediately asked for it, honestly, it's not that you're a good negotiator, it's more likely that they're a bad negotiator, and by sheer virtue of even trying, you have exposed their lack of skill. You shouldn't consider that to be typical.
> To negotiate successfully: a) you have to know what you want b) you have to ask for what you want c) you have to be willing to walk away if you don't get it.
It is probably part of "know what you want", but to state it explicitly, I think that having an idea of the actual value is also necessary. How else do you know what is a good price? You could negotiate a 50% discount and still pay too much.
It is probably part of "know what you want", but to state it explicitly, I think that having an idea of the actual value is also necessary. How else do you know what is a good price? You could negotiate a 50% discount and still pay too much.
Happened to a collegue, going to an art market.
They: how much?
Seller: 1000 USD
They: I give you 10 USD
Seller: Sold
Since there was no counter offer, the 10 was still way too high.
They: how much?
Seller: 1000 USD
They: I give you 10 USD
Seller: Sold
Since there was no counter offer, the 10 was still way too high.
I once bought a car this way. Guy pulls up to buy wipers for an '83 T-top 280ZX Turbo six-speed. Tells me I can buy it for $1000. I open my wallet and told him that I have $350. Deal done, for one of the best cars I've ever owned.
> c) you have to be willing to walk away if you don't get it.
I don't fully agree with you, I've gotten good discounts on things that I was not willing to walk away if I didn't get it. I just bluffed and pretended that I did, but I knew that in the end, I'd still buy it at the original price. It weakens the negotiation leverage, but it's still worth trying to get a discount even if you know that ultimately if it fails you'll buy it a the stated price
I don't fully agree with you, I've gotten good discounts on things that I was not willing to walk away if I didn't get it. I just bluffed and pretended that I did, but I knew that in the end, I'd still buy it at the original price. It weakens the negotiation leverage, but it's still worth trying to get a discount even if you know that ultimately if it fails you'll buy it a the stated price
A little different story while negotiating with family-run small businesses.
India is on a path to digitizing everything from all the mom-pop stores to the random tea-sellers on the corner of every street to even the beggars accepting payments digitally. Yes, India does have a financial infrastructure far better than many developed countries.
I have been on the back-end side of one such digitization effort and have seen the data. Everything that we do, or anyone in the ecosystem does to optimize profit -- end target/product are always those small businesses and the mom-pop stores run by the neighborhood uncle and aunties.
When I buy from the local stores, the small businesses, I try not to negotiate, even when I know I could have and everyone else does. I know they make a tiny more profit, and I'm happy with my decision. If your help (maid, errand boys, others)[1] bought something and might keep the change. You know they kept the difference, but you just ignore it. It is a tiny sum for you but might just be dinner or different snacks for their kids.
I had my experience, and I don't want to be on the other end and be that smart-ass negotiator. My aunt helped me sell edibles during the Indian festival of Holi. In my first year (when I was 6-8 years), I was out-negotiated to reduce price and/or add more that I lost money in the transaction. I believe I cried, and ever since, wherever I can, I try never to take advantage of someone smaller/weaker on the other end of the negotiation.
1. India has a surplus of cheap labor. It is prevalent, affordable (and thus generate employment) for middle-class households to have maids around.
India is on a path to digitizing everything from all the mom-pop stores to the random tea-sellers on the corner of every street to even the beggars accepting payments digitally. Yes, India does have a financial infrastructure far better than many developed countries.
I have been on the back-end side of one such digitization effort and have seen the data. Everything that we do, or anyone in the ecosystem does to optimize profit -- end target/product are always those small businesses and the mom-pop stores run by the neighborhood uncle and aunties.
When I buy from the local stores, the small businesses, I try not to negotiate, even when I know I could have and everyone else does. I know they make a tiny more profit, and I'm happy with my decision. If your help (maid, errand boys, others)[1] bought something and might keep the change. You know they kept the difference, but you just ignore it. It is a tiny sum for you but might just be dinner or different snacks for their kids.
I had my experience, and I don't want to be on the other end and be that smart-ass negotiator. My aunt helped me sell edibles during the Indian festival of Holi. In my first year (when I was 6-8 years), I was out-negotiated to reduce price and/or add more that I lost money in the transaction. I believe I cried, and ever since, wherever I can, I try never to take advantage of someone smaller/weaker on the other end of the negotiation.
1. India has a surplus of cheap labor. It is prevalent, affordable (and thus generate employment) for middle-class households to have maids around.
"I try never to take advantage of someone smaller/weaker on the other end of the negotiation"
100% this. Sure, you CAN negotiate with the roadside vendors. But please, don't.
On the other hand, did you know you CAN negotiate the room rates at 5-star hotel chains? You definitely should :)
100% this. Sure, you CAN negotiate with the roadside vendors. But please, don't.
On the other hand, did you know you CAN negotiate the room rates at 5-star hotel chains? You definitely should :)
Is this really a thing in 2022? There's already a whole bunch of OTAs furiously competing on price, effectively doing the negotiation for me, and with most all chains now doing "best rate guarantee" as well, it's unlikely they will beat the price on the official website.
The one situation where I have had a lot of luck "negotiating" with 5-star hotel chains is when I'm already staying there and need to extend. In this case walking up to the front desk is more easier and far more likely to get you a good rate then enduring the hell that is trying to change your reservation online (Marriott, I'm looking at you).
The one situation where I have had a lot of luck "negotiating" with 5-star hotel chains is when I'm already staying there and need to extend. In this case walking up to the front desk is more easier and far more likely to get you a good rate then enduring the hell that is trying to change your reservation online (Marriott, I'm looking at you).
> Is this really a thing in 2022? There's already a whole bunch of OTAs furiously competing on price, effectively doing the negotiation for me, and with most all chains now doing "best rate guarantee" as well, it's unlikely they will beat the price on the official website.
This, just booked an hotel in NYC and on Booking.com was like 20% cheaper than the offer on the hotel website itself (where you had to pay in advance, while in Booking.com you would just pay at the hotel!!). I guess I could negotiate the full hotel price with the hotel, they are adding a ludicrous margin, but not with Booking.com (even if they are adding their good margin anyway).
This, just booked an hotel in NYC and on Booking.com was like 20% cheaper than the offer on the hotel website itself (where you had to pay in advance, while in Booking.com you would just pay at the hotel!!). I guess I could negotiate the full hotel price with the hotel, they are adding a ludicrous margin, but not with Booking.com (even if they are adding their good margin anyway).
In my experience, if you make a (free) account with the hotel chains, they will give you the same or cheaper price than the re-sellers and also give the free cancellation up until 24 hrs to the date of stay.
I don't actually think you can negotiate with the hotel; they pre-sold those bookings to the OTAs for whatever reason but everyone's rates are still what they are. The hotel desk will suggest you get HotelTonight instead of booking with them though.
One reason you might negotiate directly is if you have a loyalty membership / status with the hotel chain — you probably don't want to book through a discount OTA (because, depending on chain, you may miss out on the benefits of your status), but you can absolutely negotiate the price by emailing the hotel directly, and keep your perks.
>My aunt helped me sell edibles during the Indian festival of Holi.
I'm assuming "edibles" means something different in Indian English... Or you guys are very liberal when it comes to 6 year old drug dealers!
I'm assuming "edibles" means something different in Indian English... Or you guys are very liberal when it comes to 6 year old drug dealers!
LOL! Yes, sweets and other 'non-drug' snacks eatable for kids and adults alike during Holi, the color of festival in India.
Edit: You got me thinking, what else was I selling. I kinda remember when weed not yet deemed illegal to grow locally (in India) or was I in a neighborhood with lots of them growing around. Seriously, I need to talk to my aunty.
Edit: You got me thinking, what else was I selling. I kinda remember when weed not yet deemed illegal to grow locally (in India) or was I in a neighborhood with lots of them growing around. Seriously, I need to talk to my aunty.
I've negotiated 40% off of mattresses at different Mattress Firm stores. Most of sales people do not want to negotiate, don't waste time with them and move on, matress chain stores are a dime a dozen. You can even call them and say you're looking to buy X and are calling around to find the sales person that will sell it to you at $Y.
Don't ask for a "deal", "discount", "best price", etc, ask, "Can you do X at $Y?"
Consumer Reports has a good chart you should scroll down and look at:
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2013/08/how-to-...
Don't ask for a "deal", "discount", "best price", etc, ask, "Can you do X at $Y?"
Consumer Reports has a good chart you should scroll down and look at:
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2013/08/how-to-...
At markets where haggling is common and expected, asking 'Can you do X at $Y?' sends the signal that you know the real market price of the product and are not a novice just asking for a discount.
I got something like 40% off a matress by acting uninterested... Of course, I thought I was uninterested (which made it really easy to act like I was) and they made a sale, so who knows who won.
The best negotiations are where both sides are happy with the outcome
Sounds like this is a perfect example
Sounds like this is a perfect example
You don't even have to negotiate on mattresses. At least where I live they regularly do huge 40-50% sales on select mattresses. You just have to wait until the one you want is in the next round of select sales. I bought my last two mattresses with a 50% price reduction on it just like this. You don't have to wait for black friday as they have sales on some items every week. They just switch around what is on sale about once a week or fortnight.
This is also true of tvs and a lot of electronics.
This is also true of tvs and a lot of electronics.
I bought a mattress on a holiday where they of course had a sale going on. They don't advertise percentage discounts, just the dollar sale price, and it was only something like a 30% discount. (I was still able to negotiate a price which came to 40% off.)
But if you need a mattress and can't wait for a sale, then you do have to negotiate if you don't want to leave money on the table.
But if you need a mattress and can't wait for a sale, then you do have to negotiate if you don't want to leave money on the table.
I assume it's like this around the world but in Australia at least, retail mattress prices are double what the mattress shops will happily sell them for.
Mattress sales where all mattresses are half price happen pretty frequently.
Mattress sales where all mattresses are half price happen pretty frequently.
The online/podcast mattress price is still cheaper than that, unless you're hard to ship to. The wholesale price people on mattress DIY forums I assume exist use has to be much cheaper than that still.
Same models being sold multiple times for discount year after year... Yeah, the real price is close to regular discount price so there is high change that getting it at that or near that price other times too.
I’m not convinced anything is intended to be sold for the tag price in that particular store fwiw. The sales people seem to know the “actual” price.
The Mattress Firm salespeople that will negotiate down to 40% always type it in the computer before saying "yes" or "no".
The others say they can only do 10% or that I can't negotiate. The later, I just laughed and walked out the door as he was trying to get me to stay. I didn't want to reward that behavior. The rest, I just thank them for their time and wish them a good day as I leave.
The others say they can only do 10% or that I can't negotiate. The later, I just laughed and walked out the door as he was trying to get me to stay. I didn't want to reward that behavior. The rest, I just thank them for their time and wish them a good day as I leave.
Negotiating is pretty much dead these days in most western countries where large chain retail has taken over. An ever increasing chunk of shopping happens online, where negotiation is obviously impossible. Other than that, employees at stores like Walmart, Home Depot, Costco, Target, Lowe's and all grocery and convenience stores don't have the authority to alter prices either. When you have ruled out like 95%+ of all retail, where exactly is this bargaining happening?
Which is great. It means when you pick up something, you know you're getting the "fair price," or at least the same price as everyone else. You can just look around, pick whatever you want, and you know exactly how much you will pay without even asking.
South Korea has thousands of traditional markets which have been slowly dying for decades - lack of transparent prices is frequently cited as a major reason. Few people want to spend time haggling just to buy a mackerel.
South Korea has thousands of traditional markets which have been slowly dying for decades - lack of transparent prices is frequently cited as a major reason. Few people want to spend time haggling just to buy a mackerel.
gosh I agree so much, I feel like sellers that expect customers to negotiate often would inflate the price to account for any potential negotiation, (So they can meet the customer in the middle). This means I have to spend time and energy to negotiate the price just to get a fair price, which I'm not really good at.
For online you just agree to take that 10-25% on your first purchase for being on their newsletter. So lame, but totally possible because of how it works with the person growing the newsletter subscriber base not having to care about the bottom line.
I used to sell bicycles where everyone expects a discount. Not being weak I would risk them walking away. Typically I would explain that we don't have much mark up on actual bikes and would also point out that I had spent a half hour or so on them so they can get the perfect machine. I would also explain to them that next week they would forget the price and that in ten years time they would see the price paid as a bargain.
I would then say that everyone likes a deal and that I could do them lights or a D lock or a helmet. I would explain that he brackets for the lights or the lock can be a faff to get right, and that if they took my deal, then we would get the chosen extras fitted properly and now. Usually this was enough for them to get the free lights, paying for the helmet and D-lock. So, by not being weak and being honest about 'my boss killing me for discounting', I would get full retail plus the upsells and a loysl customer. Nobody walked off with this stance which was great.
Naturally we had mountains of the accessories offered so it would cost $10 - $20 in parts that cost less than trade price.
I used to sell bicycles where everyone expects a discount. Not being weak I would risk them walking away. Typically I would explain that we don't have much mark up on actual bikes and would also point out that I had spent a half hour or so on them so they can get the perfect machine. I would also explain to them that next week they would forget the price and that in ten years time they would see the price paid as a bargain.
I would then say that everyone likes a deal and that I could do them lights or a D lock or a helmet. I would explain that he brackets for the lights or the lock can be a faff to get right, and that if they took my deal, then we would get the chosen extras fitted properly and now. Usually this was enough for them to get the free lights, paying for the helmet and D-lock. So, by not being weak and being honest about 'my boss killing me for discounting', I would get full retail plus the upsells and a loysl customer. Nobody walked off with this stance which was great.
Naturally we had mountains of the accessories offered so it would cost $10 - $20 in parts that cost less than trade price.
Granted it's not something I normally do, but for just once I tried getting a 48 % discount on an item in a large-ish retail baby store just a couple of weeks ago. After a brief back-and-forth they were okay with it.
Despite the fact that the store in question usually has pretty crappy service and I avoid them, the customer focus in that interaction increased the chances that I'll go there again in the future.
(Why did I try if I normally don't? It actually started when I misheard the price they said, and I figured why not just roll with it and see what happens?)
Despite the fact that the store in question usually has pretty crappy service and I avoid them, the customer focus in that interaction increased the chances that I'll go there again in the future.
(Why did I try if I normally don't? It actually started when I misheard the price they said, and I figured why not just roll with it and see what happens?)
It doesn't seem to happen on stuff like Craigslist either anymore. I've been surprised that people just pay what it's listed for.
I also have a suspicion that people even find haggling rude. I also think others are confused by it, like the choosing beggar subbredit seems to often just be bad attempts at haggling
I also have a suspicion that people even find haggling rude. I also think others are confused by it, like the choosing beggar subbredit seems to often just be bad attempts at haggling
The problem with Craigslist and the like is that if you list something you can expect that the overwhelming majority of buyers are going to negotiate in bad faith. It isn't worth your time to engage and sort through all of it, so it makes more sense to just list stuff at a low but firm price and decline or ignore all the lowball offers.
Not my experience. The issue I have with CL tend to be time-wasters who don't actually want to buy. Everything I've actually sold has been for the asking price.
Maybe we just set the initial price differently?
Maybe we just set the initial price differently?
> time-wasters who don't actually want to buy
Do you consider that to be good faith negotiating?
Do you consider that to be good faith negotiating?
I’d say it’s more like - people who are trying to convince themselves that they want something. They try to pitch you a lower price - you work with them on it. Maybe find a more reasonable ground… then they’re like, “well actually I live 100 miles away. Can we meet halfway?”
And maybe you work with them on that and they’re like, “ok but I actually have a commitment tomorrow and can only meet at 3:30am and if there’s a waning crescent moon hovering above us…”
The demands get longer. It’s clear they’re not actually interested. They’re just testing their own waters and are time wasters.
And maybe you work with them on that and they’re like, “ok but I actually have a commitment tomorrow and can only meet at 3:30am and if there’s a waning crescent moon hovering above us…”
The demands get longer. It’s clear they’re not actually interested. They’re just testing their own waters and are time wasters.
> I also have a suspicion that people even find haggling rude.
I do. Or used to. Then I kinda learned how it all works. If I had an item that could sell for say, 100 on ebay, I'd list it for 80 to get a quick sale without shipping. Then people offering 50 seem rude or crazy to me.
Then I learned to just price it high. So now, that item I'll list for 120, and 'fine, final offer' it to 80 and that works way, way better.
I think people just want to feel like they won, more than about values of items.
Another protip: Never list anything for free. You'll find the worst in society. List it for 5 or 10 dollars, then just tell the buyer it's free when they come.
I do. Or used to. Then I kinda learned how it all works. If I had an item that could sell for say, 100 on ebay, I'd list it for 80 to get a quick sale without shipping. Then people offering 50 seem rude or crazy to me.
Then I learned to just price it high. So now, that item I'll list for 120, and 'fine, final offer' it to 80 and that works way, way better.
I think people just want to feel like they won, more than about values of items.
Another protip: Never list anything for free. You'll find the worst in society. List it for 5 or 10 dollars, then just tell the buyer it's free when they come.
> Never list anything for free. You'll find the worst in society. List it for 5 or 10 dollars
It is insane how true this is. If I put something on Craigslist for $10 that I was thinking about throwing away, someone polite will buy it within a week and show up on time. The first time I put something in the "free" section instead, someone sent me a legit hate email because they didn't like the item I was giving away for free... wtf?
It is insane how true this is. If I put something on Craigslist for $10 that I was thinking about throwing away, someone polite will buy it within a week and show up on time. The first time I put something in the "free" section instead, someone sent me a legit hate email because they didn't like the item I was giving away for free... wtf?
or you wont find anyone at all - listed some chairs for free, no response, changed it to $25, and 3 offers in an hour...
That's interesting, and I wonder why. From my perspective, I'd probably either assume if it's free you already got a million offers, or they are in terrible shape. Perhaps that's why people didn't bother.
When you do a search on craigslist you pick the section of the site you want to search (i.e. "Furniture", "Computers", "Cars/Trucks", "Free", etc...). Based on my experience, the "Free" section is almost always not worth the effort. Either the items are low quality or they are impossible to get due to craigslist "flippers".
So I could see a situation where most buyers with actual intent to purchase are only searching in the "Furniture" section. And the chairs in question might not have been nice enough to attract interest from the "flippers" in the free section.
So I could see a situation where most buyers with actual intent to purchase are only searching in the "Furniture" section. And the chairs in question might not have been nice enough to attract interest from the "flippers" in the free section.
It's pricing theory (there's a better name for it ... but I cannot recall of the top of my head)
Underpricing something is as bad (or worse) than overpricing it
If I think that chair is worth $50, and you're giving it away ... I think there's something wrong
If I think it's worth $50, and you ask $20 ... I think "he must not want it - this is a great deal!"
Underpricing something is as bad (or worse) than overpricing it
If I think that chair is worth $50, and you're giving it away ... I think there's something wrong
If I think it's worth $50, and you ask $20 ... I think "he must not want it - this is a great deal!"
I've had a lot of good experiences with my neighborhood's free box/buy nothing facebook group. I've probably had two dozen pickups and everything has been picked up usually in 1-2 days at a time convenient to me.
Ah, good to know. I guess I'm thinking back to my experiences on Craigslist. You get some absolute crazies for free things. I've had multiple encounters of people cussing me out, calling me names, and even death threats for a) not holding items, or b) not delivering items...that again, are free.
YMMV, but most attempts at negotiation that I see when selling on Craigslist are just lame. A camera that goes new for $1000, up for $800, the ad says "firm", you get boring low-effort "will you take $500?" nonsense. Maybe it works on some people, but it just inclines me towards ignoring them.
For what its worth, 20% off of the retail price for a used item on CL seems like such a huge risk to me. I have gotten enough stuff off of CL where I didn't discover some issue with the item until I got home that I now generally won't even consider a listing that isn't 50% or more below retail (I mostly go to CL for "bespoke" stuff though, so often there is no "retail" price to compare to). When you add in the time and effort to respond to listings and then drive out, etc... it makes even less sense.
So you most likely are getting those responses because a large chunk of the CL buyers are in the market for prices at that level. A 20% discount feels like something you can get from the retailer if you just wait for a sale. But I guess, CL is popular enough where if you have the time to wait it out, you might eventually find a a buyer. But still seems insane to me that anyone would take that deal considering the risks.
Also, FWIW, there is no reason you can't counter offer in those cases. Considering the amount of time and effort it takes to meet in person, it is probably better that the price be pre-negotiated via e-mail before meeting in person. I certainly would never show up in person and try to get a lower price on the spot. The few times I have lowballed via e-mail (I was/am looking for a really niche item, and the only suitable listing has been sitting on CL for weeks) I got counter offered. It was still too high for my tastes, but the listing is still there so I might try again in a few weeks!
So you most likely are getting those responses because a large chunk of the CL buyers are in the market for prices at that level. A 20% discount feels like something you can get from the retailer if you just wait for a sale. But I guess, CL is popular enough where if you have the time to wait it out, you might eventually find a a buyer. But still seems insane to me that anyone would take that deal considering the risks.
Also, FWIW, there is no reason you can't counter offer in those cases. Considering the amount of time and effort it takes to meet in person, it is probably better that the price be pre-negotiated via e-mail before meeting in person. I certainly would never show up in person and try to get a lower price on the spot. The few times I have lowballed via e-mail (I was/am looking for a really niche item, and the only suitable listing has been sitting on CL for weeks) I got counter offered. It was still too high for my tastes, but the listing is still there so I might try again in a few weeks!
So I'm a professional in this space and I don't have the mental energy to bother with counter-offering when I know a fair price for the thing. Two seconds of looking at the thing will verify that yes, it has under 300 shutter activations, and yes, the body, EVF, and sensor are in fine shape, and yes, it's coming with a lens (kit, so nothing special, but still worth a few bucks) when the body doesn't normally.
"$800 firm" means something. The alternative to "sell at a fair price on both sides" is "no sale", not "sell at a stupid price." I kept the camera and still use it instead. I was getting rid of it because it wasn't 100% what I wanted in my studio space, but it's fine (just not delightful) as a B or a C camera; 80% of what I could optimally do with a different model is worth way more than taking an extra $300 bath. Eventually I'll sell on eBay and get what I'm looking for that way--I didn't want to bother with shipping, but wasting my time with unserious offers makes that a lot more appealing.
(And we aren't even getting into the significant mental effort of engaging with the ridiculous set of scammers trying to get you to fall for their fake-Zelle-notification stuff.)
"$800 firm" means something. The alternative to "sell at a fair price on both sides" is "no sale", not "sell at a stupid price." I kept the camera and still use it instead. I was getting rid of it because it wasn't 100% what I wanted in my studio space, but it's fine (just not delightful) as a B or a C camera; 80% of what I could optimally do with a different model is worth way more than taking an extra $300 bath. Eventually I'll sell on eBay and get what I'm looking for that way--I didn't want to bother with shipping, but wasting my time with unserious offers makes that a lot more appealing.
(And we aren't even getting into the significant mental effort of engaging with the ridiculous set of scammers trying to get you to fall for their fake-Zelle-notification stuff.)
Right, I am not saying it isn't a fair price. I am just letting you know what the typical buyer on CL is likely thinking. Because CL is generally in person transactions, frequently in cash, the buyer has no recourse. On ebay, if someone thinks you sold them a bad camera, they can dispute the transaction. The risk is generally higher for the CL buyer, so naturally they look to be compensated for it with deeper discounts.
Yeah I get that. Just saying that negotiation requires both sides to think that that risk discount is fair. We're pretty much in agreement. ;)
This has actually followed over into the NFT space as well--there are bots that put up paltry offers on every NFT in a collection (10% or 1% of floor price for example) and they are MASSIVELY profitable because some small percentage of people accept the offers. Then the bots just list slightly below the floor price for a quick profit so they hold minimal inventory. Quite the numbers game.
what else do you want people to do though? Just not respond until you lower the price on the add your self?
As I said in the sibling, the alternative isn't "lowering the price", it's "not selling". That's what "firm" means, yeah?
Tbh - I kinda prefer this sometimes. I will set an ambitious price and then slowly lower it over the course of 3-4 weeks. Eventually someone bites and I’ll usually get higher than any email I’ve been sent before.
I get a lot of low effort people who want you to drive everything to them and pay bottom dollar (even though I’m very centrally located). Super annoying.
I get a lot of low effort people who want you to drive everything to them and pay bottom dollar (even though I’m very centrally located). Super annoying.
I bought a Fire Stick off FB Marketplace recently, and received an unprompted and pretty racist communication from the seller that I was the "first white guy to contact her and the only person who didn't try to low-ball." It really weirded me out and I ended up kind of calling her out on it so that she backed down and apologized— though even that was weird, I was like "Ma'am, I'm not the one who is hurt by you having these attitudes; don't apologize to me, please just try to do better in the future."
It seems plausible that white people associate with white people (whatever "white" is where you live) and not-white-people associate with not-white-people. These two groups may have developed different cultures.
Of course in this era of ultra-sensitivity to racist issues, your seller's phrasing seems problematic. But the ability to recognize the difference in cultures is an asset, not a liability.
Of course in this era of ultra-sensitivity to racist issues, your seller's phrasing seems problematic. But the ability to recognize the difference in cultures is an asset, not a liability.
> I'm not the one who is hurt by you having these attitudes
But you are tangibly hurt by systemic discrimination. Otherwise qualified people give up their career choice to avoid harassment or because of inequitable salary. Then we are left with less qualified and motivated people staffed in important positions. Your work, health, or other aspect of your life are affected, just not in ways you can easily see or measure.
But you are tangibly hurt by systemic discrimination. Otherwise qualified people give up their career choice to avoid harassment or because of inequitable salary. Then we are left with less qualified and motivated people staffed in important positions. Your work, health, or other aspect of your life are affected, just not in ways you can easily see or measure.
> Other than that, employees at stores like Walmart, Home Depot, Costco, Target, Lowe's and all grocery and convenience stores don't have the authority to alter prices either.
They sometimes actually do, but they aren't meant for haggling purposes, and are often only allowed up to a small amount (like say $20). They're meant for things like price-matching or resolving pricing discrepancies.
They sometimes actually do, but they aren't meant for haggling purposes, and are often only allowed up to a small amount (like say $20). They're meant for things like price-matching or resolving pricing discrepancies.
Yep. At Target, the cashiers can easily change the price if I said the tag said something else.
I used to be a cashier at a sporting goods chain store. No one ever told me, but I discovered I could give 5% discounts without an override. My team lead could give 10%. No one ever asked for a discount, but I would have probably given them if the customer asked nicely. Of course I could also adjust the price if the tag showed something different, and the computer did not request an override unless it was a large discrepancy.
I used to be a cashier at a sporting goods chain store. No one ever told me, but I discovered I could give 5% discounts without an override. My team lead could give 10%. No one ever asked for a discount, but I would have probably given them if the customer asked nicely. Of course I could also adjust the price if the tag showed something different, and the computer did not request an override unless it was a large discrepancy.
they may have the authority to correct errors, but they don't have the authority to negotiate. if they're caught lowering prices because a customer has haggled them down, they're going to get fired.
don't try to haggle with retail staff.
don't try to haggle with retail staff.
I've had a couple good experiences at, of all places, Walmart - including the a pool cue I bought several years ago
There was no slot for the cue anymore, and no sticker on it
Asked the guy in Sporting Goods how much it was
He looked at it for a minute and said, "how's $5.97 sound?" (that was the price of the marked-down solid maple stick, this was a two-piece fiberglass jobbie (probably a $40-50 cue at the time))
I told him, "sounds great"
He printed-out a "replacement" price tag, and went to check out
There was no slot for the cue anymore, and no sticker on it
Asked the guy in Sporting Goods how much it was
He looked at it for a minute and said, "how's $5.97 sound?" (that was the price of the marked-down solid maple stick, this was a two-piece fiberglass jobbie (probably a $40-50 cue at the time))
I told him, "sounds great"
He printed-out a "replacement" price tag, and went to check out
At least at my local Lowes, there's often a lot of wiggle-room on floor models (which are often returns)
We ended up with over 35% off a mower last year because the engine meter had more than .1h (6m) on it, along with some dirt and grass clippings in the mower deck
Brand new (minus 20 minutes of run time and some dirt) with all the warranties intact
We ended up with over 35% off a mower last year because the engine meter had more than .1h (6m) on it, along with some dirt and grass clippings in the mower deck
Brand new (minus 20 minutes of run time and some dirt) with all the warranties intact
I understand the feeling of not being able to negotiate because 95% of my purchases are small ticket items from national chains, but if you think negotiating is dead then you aren't looking.
I am NOT a strong negotiator, I'll usually only ask if I'm buying a few things or my checkout price will be greater than ~$200, but just asking will usually be enough. "Can I get a discount" or "can you throw in some of this stuff for free." But even with that, I've been able to get plenty of discounts.
And that expands a TON if you add floor model/open box/dent and ding items. Almost any store will give you a minimum of 10% off on AT LEAST those items.
Places you can negotiate:
* Any car dealership
* Buying houses or real estate
* Renting apartments/houses not managed by multi-city corporations
* Music stores, excluding Guitar Center
* Guitar Center (somewhat)
* Mattress stores
* Furniture stores (that are at least on the level of Ashley furniture) or independent (so no Ikea).
* SaaSes that have sales teams [email them and ask, they often will give discounts if you have a better reason than "I want a discount" which is a pretty low bar. Like student (real student, not I still have my college address 10 years later), military, I'm a poor startup founder and can't afford the full price. <- I've used this a few times pre-revenue]
* Smaller software companies that aren't selling games (email them and ask, they often will give discounts if you have a better reason than "I want a discount" which is a pretty low bar)
* ANY place that sells anything used from slightly used to antiques
* Farmer's markets
* Boutique food stores (this one is kinda iffy unless spending a fair bit)
* Flea markets
* Dentist offices (the approach is different here usually appealing to loyalty discounts, personal hardships, or extra cosmetic type services)
* Mall kiosk vendors oftentimes
* Outside of the US any kind of vendor in a shop that is in a specialized mall (ex. In Seoul in the electronics district, there are malls full of small vendors that have similar inventory as everyone else, you can haggle a ton)
* Any independently owned shop that has most items retailing for >~$50 or average ticket price >~$100.
* Non-chain Restaurants (but I'd generally avoid it unless going high end because margins are usually tiny)
* Pretty much ANY store that hasn't "standardized" itself to death.
* Rental cars
* I could keep going.
Places you can't:
* National chains where the sales staff is minimum wage. Walmart, Best Buy, Target
* Stores selling small-ticket items (average purchase is under $100)
* Online retailers (outside of standard coupons, etc)
* Grocery stores
* Regional/nationally managed rentals.
* I'm having trouble thinking of other places you can't negotiate at least a little at...
I am NOT a strong negotiator, I'll usually only ask if I'm buying a few things or my checkout price will be greater than ~$200, but just asking will usually be enough. "Can I get a discount" or "can you throw in some of this stuff for free." But even with that, I've been able to get plenty of discounts.
And that expands a TON if you add floor model/open box/dent and ding items. Almost any store will give you a minimum of 10% off on AT LEAST those items.
Places you can negotiate:
* Any car dealership
* Buying houses or real estate
* Renting apartments/houses not managed by multi-city corporations
* Music stores, excluding Guitar Center
* Guitar Center (somewhat)
* Mattress stores
* Furniture stores (that are at least on the level of Ashley furniture) or independent (so no Ikea).
* SaaSes that have sales teams [email them and ask, they often will give discounts if you have a better reason than "I want a discount" which is a pretty low bar. Like student (real student, not I still have my college address 10 years later), military, I'm a poor startup founder and can't afford the full price. <- I've used this a few times pre-revenue]
* Smaller software companies that aren't selling games (email them and ask, they often will give discounts if you have a better reason than "I want a discount" which is a pretty low bar)
* ANY place that sells anything used from slightly used to antiques
* Farmer's markets
* Boutique food stores (this one is kinda iffy unless spending a fair bit)
* Flea markets
* Dentist offices (the approach is different here usually appealing to loyalty discounts, personal hardships, or extra cosmetic type services)
* Mall kiosk vendors oftentimes
* Outside of the US any kind of vendor in a shop that is in a specialized mall (ex. In Seoul in the electronics district, there are malls full of small vendors that have similar inventory as everyone else, you can haggle a ton)
* Any independently owned shop that has most items retailing for >~$50 or average ticket price >~$100.
* Non-chain Restaurants (but I'd generally avoid it unless going high end because margins are usually tiny)
* Pretty much ANY store that hasn't "standardized" itself to death.
* Rental cars
* I could keep going.
Places you can't:
* National chains where the sales staff is minimum wage. Walmart, Best Buy, Target
* Stores selling small-ticket items (average purchase is under $100)
* Online retailers (outside of standard coupons, etc)
* Grocery stores
* Regional/nationally managed rentals.
* I'm having trouble thinking of other places you can't negotiate at least a little at...
If you also throw in "price matching" you can haggle at even more places.
The moral of the story is any place with a physical presence MUST charge a considerable markup (40% markup would be in the discount store range of markups) in order to stay in business, so if it is worth their while to make a sale they will haggle.
If they are selling commodity goods or small ticket items it's difficult to make it worth their while to even talk to someone wanting to haggle.
The moral of the story is any place with a physical presence MUST charge a considerable markup (40% markup would be in the discount store range of markups) in order to stay in business, so if it is worth their while to make a sale they will haggle.
If they are selling commodity goods or small ticket items it's difficult to make it worth their while to even talk to someone wanting to haggle.
You can still negotiate on eBay!
Chiming in to add - Lasik!
I saved and saved to get mine in my early 20s, and assumed it's just the price you pay like anywhere else.
About 8 years later, went to same place for my wife and between age and experience I just said 'ah, sounds like too much we'll go elsewhere' and they nearly halved the price. Wish I knew that the first time!
However, don't overdo it. You're highly unlikely to get anywhere trying to negotiate at big box or grocery stores on typical items and likely just annoy the cashier. My brother used to get driven up the wall by people wasting time doing this - noting they were usually foreign people and that may have been how things worked in their native country.
I saved and saved to get mine in my early 20s, and assumed it's just the price you pay like anywhere else.
About 8 years later, went to same place for my wife and between age and experience I just said 'ah, sounds like too much we'll go elsewhere' and they nearly halved the price. Wish I knew that the first time!
However, don't overdo it. You're highly unlikely to get anywhere trying to negotiate at big box or grocery stores on typical items and likely just annoy the cashier. My brother used to get driven up the wall by people wasting time doing this - noting they were usually foreign people and that may have been how things worked in their native country.
Basically, it only makes sense to haggle when the other person actually has a nontrivial incentive to make the sale. If their pay is going to be the same regardless of the sale, "I'm taking my elsewhere elsewhere" is going to be meaningless.
It also only makes sense to haggle when the other person has the authority to change the price. Retail salespeople sometimes makes a commission on sales but have no say in the price.
Great point. I realized that when working auto parts as a teen. There was zero incentive for me to care about sales, I just got my barely minimum wage.
My manager though would always be ready to wheel and deal on big items. He told me eventually they get bonuses based on monthly sales, so would do anything to get them.
Weird dynamic really. So basically you only might get a discount on non busy days when the store manager was in. This is probably why the whole 'Let me talk to the manager' stuff came about in the first place.
My manager though would always be ready to wheel and deal on big items. He told me eventually they get bonuses based on monthly sales, so would do anything to get them.
Weird dynamic really. So basically you only might get a discount on non busy days when the store manager was in. This is probably why the whole 'Let me talk to the manager' stuff came about in the first place.
This is why, pre chip shortage, there were great times to buy cars - the end of their financial year.
If a dealership sells an agreed on number of cars they get a % back on each car purchased, I've heard 5% quoted.
At the end of the financial year, they quite possibly might only be a few cars away from this, and it's a big deal. I was buying a new car, and they were adamant about sticking to the list price, so I walked. A few days later they phoned up offering a STEEP discount (25%), sadly, the one they had in stock wasn't the colour or spec I wanted, and I managed to get another dealership to cut almost as much off. But it goes to show - knowing who you're buying from, knowing how they make their money, and when they need sales quick, and crucially, being ready to walk away, are important.
If a dealership sells an agreed on number of cars they get a % back on each car purchased, I've heard 5% quoted.
At the end of the financial year, they quite possibly might only be a few cars away from this, and it's a big deal. I was buying a new car, and they were adamant about sticking to the list price, so I walked. A few days later they phoned up offering a STEEP discount (25%), sadly, the one they had in stock wasn't the colour or spec I wanted, and I managed to get another dealership to cut almost as much off. But it goes to show - knowing who you're buying from, knowing how they make their money, and when they need sales quick, and crucially, being ready to walk away, are important.
I wonder if the significant deflation was a feature of this being a medical context, a US medical context in particular.
My vague understanding of the subject is that everyone just pulls giant numbers out of thin air to start the professional haggling conversation with (presumably) the recipient's insurance adjustment team - who will promptly bring things into the realm of reality they work within. IIUC if insurance is held hostage for a full amount (eg, workplace injury) it might end up a lot lower, while if there's an opportunity for recipient copay (eg, elective surgery) the insurer will punt and say "ok we'll just do $X" - even though the recipient may not realize they can adjust the cost down just as easily as the insurer can.
(I faintly recall reading about someone getting some random procedure done, getting quoted $10k by a doctor in a medical center, following up and going "?!?!?!" and being told by the receptionist or similar that the procedure was really just $300 or so (or similarly less). Something like that. The doctor simply had no idea so pulled a number out of rand().)
I think things started out trying to manage liability and lawsuit funding (and legal can generally be a giant price guide watermark hot air balloon...), but sort of accidentally got permanently associated with "oh that'll be expensive" to the point the whole thing just a self-fulfilling-prophecy-powered perpetual motion machine - and not just that, but one with an ever-widening margin between expectation and reality... that the powers that be are distinctly disincentivized to disentangle in any way shape or form.
So being able to assertively question medical fees, and do it Correctly™, is a definitely-useful skill, albeit one that is categorically tricky to learn (caveat emptor :/)...
My vague understanding of the subject is that everyone just pulls giant numbers out of thin air to start the professional haggling conversation with (presumably) the recipient's insurance adjustment team - who will promptly bring things into the realm of reality they work within. IIUC if insurance is held hostage for a full amount (eg, workplace injury) it might end up a lot lower, while if there's an opportunity for recipient copay (eg, elective surgery) the insurer will punt and say "ok we'll just do $X" - even though the recipient may not realize they can adjust the cost down just as easily as the insurer can.
(I faintly recall reading about someone getting some random procedure done, getting quoted $10k by a doctor in a medical center, following up and going "?!?!?!" and being told by the receptionist or similar that the procedure was really just $300 or so (or similarly less). Something like that. The doctor simply had no idea so pulled a number out of rand().)
I think things started out trying to manage liability and lawsuit funding (and legal can generally be a giant price guide watermark hot air balloon...), but sort of accidentally got permanently associated with "oh that'll be expensive" to the point the whole thing just a self-fulfilling-prophecy-powered perpetual motion machine - and not just that, but one with an ever-widening margin between expectation and reality... that the powers that be are distinctly disincentivized to disentangle in any way shape or form.
So being able to assertively question medical fees, and do it Correctly™, is a definitely-useful skill, albeit one that is categorically tricky to learn (caveat emptor :/)...
Perhaps it was the 8 years that did it?
During those first years they would have paid off all the equipment and sold the treatment to the vast portion of eligible patients.
Congrats for asking! I should try that!
During those first years they would have paid off all the equipment and sold the treatment to the vast portion of eligible patients.
Congrats for asking! I should try that!
Naw, I got a 30% cut by simply saying “that’s higher than I was hoping was, I was expecting closer to $XXX” to which they said “we can do that if you can schedule it next week”.
[deleted]
Big box, like big box electronic stores?
They generally have a discount budget they can use on small items if you buy big items.
E.g, I got my carrying case for free because I bought a switch _and_ two games.
Got delivery and installation free because we bought a stovetop _and_ a fridge.
But it had to be negotiated.
They generally have a discount budget they can use on small items if you buy big items.
E.g, I got my carrying case for free because I bought a switch _and_ two games.
Got delivery and installation free because we bought a stovetop _and_ a fridge.
But it had to be negotiated.
Tangential question: How'd LASIK work out for you?
Like everything else in life, I obsessed and compared pros and cons for weeks before deciding on PRK. In the end, the thought of having an 'eye flap' was disgusting enough to me to choose the older option.
The surgery was super quick, and I could see amazing right away. Then it all went away. I probably slept for 2 or 3 days straight... waking only to take a pain pill and sleep again. I remember looking at the ceiling fan each day and it looking clearer and clearer before my eyes hurt and said pills.
I could finally work but my eyes were super light sensitive and my resolution was trash. I was sitting in a room with no lights, sunglasses, and my laptop screen zoomed way in when I started back at work, and even then kept confusing minus for equals.
In short time it healed and like most things, I forgot the bad and am completely happy.
My wife got Lasik and could see perfectly a few hours later with no side effects.
I guess she doesn't mind that gross eye flap I kept reading about, lol.
In the end, we are both happy with our choices and would do it again in a heartbeat.
The surgery was super quick, and I could see amazing right away. Then it all went away. I probably slept for 2 or 3 days straight... waking only to take a pain pill and sleep again. I remember looking at the ceiling fan each day and it looking clearer and clearer before my eyes hurt and said pills.
I could finally work but my eyes were super light sensitive and my resolution was trash. I was sitting in a room with no lights, sunglasses, and my laptop screen zoomed way in when I started back at work, and even then kept confusing minus for equals.
In short time it healed and like most things, I forgot the bad and am completely happy.
My wife got Lasik and could see perfectly a few hours later with no side effects.
I guess she doesn't mind that gross eye flap I kept reading about, lol.
In the end, we are both happy with our choices and would do it again in a heartbeat.
For anyone who's bothered about the way the "flap" was traditionally created for Lasik (i.e. a blade – no, I wouldn't have liked this either!), there is now commonly a bladeless laser-based approach. They still have to move the flap off and on but it's a second or two in a 10 minute procedure and saves many post-op hassles of PRK.
As important is to recognize that even if the price cannot be negotiated, oftentimes the service you receive can!
If the waiter seats you somewhere you don't like, don't be afraid to ask for the nicer table! At the hotel, don't be afraid to ask if they have a nicer suite you can have instead.
Often employees are not able to negotiate the price, but they have flexibility in what they can offer you!
If the waiter seats you somewhere you don't like, don't be afraid to ask for the nicer table! At the hotel, don't be afraid to ask if they have a nicer suite you can have instead.
Often employees are not able to negotiate the price, but they have flexibility in what they can offer you!
My wife's family does this consistently. But they typically don't even bother to evaluate if the table/room/whatever they've been offered is acceptable or not, they just automatically always ask for "better". It's usually very annoying, as it causes delay, often confusion with the staff member trying to assist them, and sometimes ends up getting something worse than where you started.
Well, don't ask for "better". What's better, anyway?
I have to negotiate this for every auditorium, restaurant, in-person conference, meeting. I'm hard of hearing so where I sit really matters. "Sorry, can we sit somewhere quiet/up front?" is never a problem in a restaurant or auditorium that's only half-full.
I guess a general communication tip is give people objective goals, not subjective ones, and ideally a logical explanation for why you need them, if it's unusual. If it doesn't cost them anything most places are quite happy to oblige, I find.
I have to negotiate this for every auditorium, restaurant, in-person conference, meeting. I'm hard of hearing so where I sit really matters. "Sorry, can we sit somewhere quiet/up front?" is never a problem in a restaurant or auditorium that's only half-full.
I guess a general communication tip is give people objective goals, not subjective ones, and ideally a logical explanation for why you need them, if it's unusual. If it doesn't cost them anything most places are quite happy to oblige, I find.
I've run into this with airlines and rental car companies: being polite and asking if there's anything they can do to help some situation be less cruddy (even it is was your fault that you missed boarding your flight) often nets something that's at least passingly-pleasant
Had Hertz (my least-favorite rental company) give me a discount on a substitute vehicle because I really didn't want to be driving a Suburban for the week (I'd rented a midsize, but they were out of everything but full-size SUVs). They knocked it down to a compact rate for the week (which, to an extent, I didn't really care about - it was a work trip, but I also didn't need all the space and hassle of the big vehicle)
Delta gave my wife and I $400 travel vouchers, rebooked us First Class home, and gave us meal vouchers to make up for getting our honeymoon return trip broken (somehow we ended up on different itineraries). This was right after watching the counter rep do the absolute least to the family in front of us that was extremely rude to the rep.
Just SMILING at the counter rep can make a world of difference :)
I used to get free upgrades at Dollar next to Bradley airport just because I smiled to the manager and his fiancee-then-wife when I'd come in and ask how their weekend was (I spent ~8mos flying into BDL every week several years ago - all but about 3 of those trips utilized Dollar for my car rentals): I'd book the compact of "manager special" rate, and always got bumped up a class (or 4) ...just for being polite
Had Hertz (my least-favorite rental company) give me a discount on a substitute vehicle because I really didn't want to be driving a Suburban for the week (I'd rented a midsize, but they were out of everything but full-size SUVs). They knocked it down to a compact rate for the week (which, to an extent, I didn't really care about - it was a work trip, but I also didn't need all the space and hassle of the big vehicle)
Delta gave my wife and I $400 travel vouchers, rebooked us First Class home, and gave us meal vouchers to make up for getting our honeymoon return trip broken (somehow we ended up on different itineraries). This was right after watching the counter rep do the absolute least to the family in front of us that was extremely rude to the rep.
Just SMILING at the counter rep can make a world of difference :)
I used to get free upgrades at Dollar next to Bradley airport just because I smiled to the manager and his fiancee-then-wife when I'd come in and ask how their weekend was (I spent ~8mos flying into BDL every week several years ago - all but about 3 of those trips utilized Dollar for my car rentals): I'd book the compact of "manager special" rate, and always got bumped up a class (or 4) ...just for being polite
In Las Vegas, always tip the front desk person. When you give them your ID and credit card, also include a $20 bill - or a green chip if you've already started gambling. It's in Las Vegas culture to tip everyone all the time. About half the time, I got a room upgrade that far exceeds the tip while doing this, although that's not really the point.
Also: ask for business class upgrade when checking in flights. If they're not sold by now they're never going to be sold, and the €150 extra the airline gets is a good deal for them. It's one of those discounts where everyone wins.
Of course, you need to be prepared that you might not get it.
Of course, you need to be prepared that you might not get it.
The greatest leverage is in your willingness to walk away. Being more willing to walk away than your counter-party is an enormous advantage in nearly any negotiation. (Being perceived as more willing to walk away is almost as good.)
Good point, but makes me wonder how Medical Bill negotiation is on the list at all? How do you walk away from that? I could see some leverage if you're already in collections I suppose.
Edit: The list posted by "MerelyMortal" above.
The leverage is – "I will not pay you and take the credit score hit, which I am okay with. You will then have to sell my debt to collections for pennies on the dollar. Instead of that, let's work out a favorable monthly payment plan."
I've always wondered if you can buy your own debt from collections and pay it off there, as some sort of soaring medical cost hack albeit tanking one's credit score.
It appears you can. At least searching for "buy your own debt" gives results for entities who claim to help you do so, without tanking your credit score. "You're certainly not going to take legal action against yourself".
Not sure, but you can definitely negotiate with debt collectors. They have been known to withdraw things from people's credit reports in exchange for payment. Especially if you play hardball and insist on seeing paperwork to prove they they have the right to collect.
You can offer to settle, which is similar. A "settled in full" note goes on your credit report.
if you’re going to tank your credit score why bother paying at all
Why can't they just sue you if you fail to pay? Surely if someone doesn't pay for your services there must be some legal means to get the money that you are owed.
Getting paid today (or a payment plan starting today) is probably worth a discount over getting paid after a lengthy court process; even if you'll get compensated for legal fees and time value of money.
How much of a discount that's worth depends on the likelyhood of collecting after the legal process as well as how much of a reputational hit going through the process would be.
I wouldn't negotiate with most things after the service was performed (unless it wasn't to my satisfaction), but most services will have a firm quote before the service (sometimes that's legally required). A mechanic can keep your car until you've paid, but a hospital can't refuse to discharge you until you've paid, so they don't have the leverage to get immediate payment.
How much of a discount that's worth depends on the likelyhood of collecting after the legal process as well as how much of a reputational hit going through the process would be.
I wouldn't negotiate with most things after the service was performed (unless it wasn't to my satisfaction), but most services will have a firm quote before the service (sometimes that's legally required). A mechanic can keep your car until you've paid, but a hospital can't refuse to discharge you until you've paid, so they don't have the leverage to get immediate payment.
Why do that, when they can sell the debt to a collections agency that's willing to pay:
(probability of recovery) * (1 - profit margin) * (amount owed)
today, for the right to sue on you behalf?
Note: I think the current debt collection system in the US is terrible, especially for medical debt. I suggest looking at the charity "RIP Medical Debt" if you do too.
At the very least, when selling a debt to a collections agency, the (re)seller of the debt should be obligated to first offer the same price to the person that owes money.
(probability of recovery) * (1 - profit margin) * (amount owed)
today, for the right to sue on you behalf?
Note: I think the current debt collection system in the US is terrible, especially for medical debt. I suggest looking at the charity "RIP Medical Debt" if you do too.
At the very least, when selling a debt to a collections agency, the (re)seller of the debt should be obligated to first offer the same price to the person that owes money.
> At the very least, when selling a debt to a collections agency, the (re)seller of the debt should be obligated to first offer the same price to the person that owes money.
That seems reasonable at first glance, but it would lead to an explosion of people simply refusing to pay and waiting for the 'debt collector price' offer to arrive.
That seems reasonable at first glance, but it would lead to an explosion of people simply refusing to pay and waiting for the 'debt collector price' offer to arrive.
They of course can, and through small claims it's monetarily inexpensive, but it's both time and effort, and for more than small claims will handle, it's expensive. Some businesses won't show up personally at small claims and will get counsel involved, which is expensive.
Depending on the debt, getting most of the difference between the legal expenses and the debt itself is in reach, given a creditor who is a rational actor.
Depending on the debt, getting most of the difference between the legal expenses and the debt itself is in reach, given a creditor who is a rational actor.
If you ever ask a lawyer to sue a person with not much money, you might get a proverb in response: "you can't get blood out of a stone". Literally, if someone doesn't have the money, you won't get it.
Suing people who don't pay their bills is a losing proposition. You will be paying lawyers and getting very little to nothing in return.
Suing people who don't pay their bills is a losing proposition. You will be paying lawyers and getting very little to nothing in return.
The difference is that we are talking about a case where you can pay bills but you just want a discount so you threaten not to pay.
I'm on the same page. But, the hospital doesn't choose their collections strategy just because of one person. They can't see inside your bank account. Most people who can pay, pay. Most people who can't, can't. If they started suing people who couldn't pay, they'd lose money overall, so they don't.
> They can't see inside your bank account.
In the "of course that exists" category, there are services that give a score about somebody's ability to pay.
I really hate how every business process can be (and frequently is) optimized to the nth degree at the cost of privacy.
https://www.equifax.com/business/product/ability-to-pay/
In the "of course that exists" category, there are services that give a score about somebody's ability to pay.
I really hate how every business process can be (and frequently is) optimized to the nth degree at the cost of privacy.
https://www.equifax.com/business/product/ability-to-pay/
I didn't think of it that way. Thanks. So as long as most people don't try to do this then the negotiating strategy can work.
If someone doesn't have the money to pay a debt then suing them isn't going to magically produce it.
This submission is about getting a discount when you otherwise wouldn't have. If you can afford to pay in full. You have the money to pay.
My first son was by cesarian and we did not have insurance. The bill was $15,000. After some various payment plan discussions I asked if there was any other way to pay. The lady said yes, if you pay cash before you leave the hospital is is $2000. I since have used the pay cash method to pay a fraction of various medical bills.
The more I read about the American healthcare system the less it makes sense.
Elective surgeries.
Need a hip replaced? Having a child? These things can negotiated in advance at a substantial discount.
Need a hip replaced? Having a child? These things can negotiated in advance at a substantial discount.
I just read all three credit bureaus removed medical bills from their report.
I was curious and found these details.
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20220318005244/en/Equ...
> Effective July 1, 2022, paid medical collection debt will no longer be included on consumer credit reports.
In addition, the time period before unpaid medical collection debt would appear on a consumer’s report will be increased from 6 months to one year, giving consumers more time to work with insurance and/or healthcare providers to address their debt before it is reported on their credit file.
In the first half of 2023, Equifax, Experian and TransUnion will also no longer include medical collection debt under at least $500 on credit reports.
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20220318005244/en/Equ...
> Effective July 1, 2022, paid medical collection debt will no longer be included on consumer credit reports.
In addition, the time period before unpaid medical collection debt would appear on a consumer’s report will be increased from 6 months to one year, giving consumers more time to work with insurance and/or healthcare providers to address their debt before it is reported on their credit file.
In the first half of 2023, Equifax, Experian and TransUnion will also no longer include medical collection debt under at least $500 on credit reports.
>leverage if you're already in collections I suppose.
What about before you undergo the medical services? Why is it so damn uncommon to ask for a price before seeing the doctor?
What about before you undergo the medical services? Why is it so damn uncommon to ask for a price before seeing the doctor?
Insurance has driven a market where the pricing is opaque. The doctors are trained to req services without concern for money and the billing office reconciles it with the insurance bean counters.
Imagine choosing doctors like plumbers. Do you go with the one with the low initial exam fee? How about the one your family member recommended? Or the one with good reviews on the internet? Then, when they tell you the plan, do you go to another one and pay their exam fee to find out their plan?
I have some experience at this from the veterinary side. Some people do treat us like plumbers. They know there are several points of leverage in the pricing. However, it is a two edged sword. If you decline the plan and renegotiate it, the vet is liable to stop recommending the expensive options because you are more focused on money than health. This happens unconsciously. If you decline a $20 diagnostic after a half hour of haggling I won't have time or energy to try to convince you to spring for a $100 monthly treatment when an inferior but acceptable treatment is available for less. I'll present both options and you will probably choose the inferior one as part of your haggling strategy.
Haggling makes lots of sense when the quality of the commodity is not under control of the salesperson, it is easy to determine, and the salesperson pads your price with lots of margin. In medicine, everything is opaque and haggling is rarely able to take a broad cut on price without sacrificing quality.
Imagine choosing doctors like plumbers. Do you go with the one with the low initial exam fee? How about the one your family member recommended? Or the one with good reviews on the internet? Then, when they tell you the plan, do you go to another one and pay their exam fee to find out their plan?
I have some experience at this from the veterinary side. Some people do treat us like plumbers. They know there are several points of leverage in the pricing. However, it is a two edged sword. If you decline the plan and renegotiate it, the vet is liable to stop recommending the expensive options because you are more focused on money than health. This happens unconsciously. If you decline a $20 diagnostic after a half hour of haggling I won't have time or energy to try to convince you to spring for a $100 monthly treatment when an inferior but acceptable treatment is available for less. I'll present both options and you will probably choose the inferior one as part of your haggling strategy.
Haggling makes lots of sense when the quality of the commodity is not under control of the salesperson, it is easy to determine, and the salesperson pads your price with lots of margin. In medicine, everything is opaque and haggling is rarely able to take a broad cut on price without sacrificing quality.
> Why is it so damn uncommon to ask for a price before seeing the doctor?
The main reason is that, often, the doctor is choosing the specific procedures after you show up, not before. There's not a price for "stomache ache".
For the elective procedures where it is known what is involved up-front, there is some price shopping that does happen.
The main reason is that, often, the doctor is choosing the specific procedures after you show up, not before. There's not a price for "stomache ache".
For the elective procedures where it is known what is involved up-front, there is some price shopping that does happen.
There is a price for office consult. And when the doctor says, "I'm going to order a blood test," or "I'm going to clean your ear out" or whatever, you can ask them to have it priced out before they do it. People ought to know that.
In negotiation theory, this is known as your BATNA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiat...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiat...
Tried this buying a used car a few weeks ago, but didn’t work. Still spent money on some stupid crap (pre installed lojack, door edge protectors) to get the car I wanted.
With supply chain issues, cars are not very negotiable right now. Supply chain issues notwithstanding, used cars are trickier to negotiate because you can't go to another dealer and buy the exact same item like you can with new cars.
It sounds like it didn't work in large part because you actually weren't willing to walk away (which makes sense in a lot of cases; if you need something and don't have a good alternative, you may reasonably choose to accept a worse deal than if you were indifferent).
Here in India, I have found that just casually asking for a discount will instantly get you a small discount in a lot cases. You just need to look not excited at the product and politely ask if there is a discount. Or at least if they can round the price to nearest hundred. Basically, this is zero effort savings.
For costly things, it is better to cross check with a few stores to get an idea about the local price and ask what is the best they can do. You can let them know you have checked other stores, but don’t share the details of other offers. Sometimes, checking with a store over a phone call might get you a better deal, because yours is a zero effort deal for them which they don’t want to lose to a competitor and also, they won’t be able to read you like they can in case of an in-person bargaining.
I usually try to avoid who doesn’t show even a tiny interest in a negotiation. It is better to give business to someone who is willing to spent some time discussing with customer.
Being said all these, I don’t spend too time much on this to milk out every possible discount. It is a trade off between time/happiness vs saving money.
For costly things, it is better to cross check with a few stores to get an idea about the local price and ask what is the best they can do. You can let them know you have checked other stores, but don’t share the details of other offers. Sometimes, checking with a store over a phone call might get you a better deal, because yours is a zero effort deal for them which they don’t want to lose to a competitor and also, they won’t be able to read you like they can in case of an in-person bargaining.
I usually try to avoid who doesn’t show even a tiny interest in a negotiation. It is better to give business to someone who is willing to spent some time discussing with customer.
Being said all these, I don’t spend too time much on this to milk out every possible discount. It is a trade off between time/happiness vs saving money.
To add to this, I've found that calling a few local dealers helped me discover that there was nothing "amazing" about Amazon's or Flipkart's (Walmart) discounts. Sometimes local dealers offered the goods much cheaper.
Negotiating is typically only possible in situations where the salesperson is receiving a commission (Guitar Center) or is in a position to directly benefit at the expense of the business (bartender hoping the discount will translate into an equally sized tip). That said, there are a lot of places that applies to and it never hurts to ask.
Loyalty is another one. I'm very regular at the cheese counter at my local farmer's market, spending ~$20 most weeks— it's ended up where I'm on a first name basis with the guy who is usually there. He never weighs any of my stuff, just lops off big chunks and is like "sure that's about the right amount lol." Based on the grocery store prices for these cheeses, I'm pretty sure he's giving me a 30-50% discount.
But part of it is probably also that I'm very easy going; I'm happy to take whatever it is he's trying to move, and happy to grab chunky ends or other pieces that would be annoying to cut, etc.
But part of it is probably also that I'm very easy going; I'm happy to take whatever it is he's trying to move, and happy to grab chunky ends or other pieces that would be annoying to cut, etc.
While I wouldn't necessarily categorize that as negotiating, I totally agree that befriending employees, managers and owners is one of the best things you can do for your bank account. Especially true for restaurants. The first thing I do when moving to a new area is find a good restaurant or deli that I could see myself frequenting, and then go there every day while being as personable as possible (which is not exactly my natural state). It takes maybe a couple of weeks before the customer appreciation perks start appearing.
Called the good guy discount. Or nice guy discount.
Heh. I have the opposite problem. I am learning that you can't negotiate when the market is not favourable (i.e., current times). Applies to all big ticket items - cars, rent, real estate, etc. I have internal metrics for what things should be worth, and if you stick to it, as I have, you end up getting nothing.
I mean, if you consider that "a problem" then your sense of what things are worth is probably wrong, since if you're valuing things correctly then you should be happy with a "no deal" outcome for things that are to expensive.
I use a similar strategy often and agree it's an issue, but overall quite a good strategy.
The solution of course is to actively keep in touch with changing market dynamics. The last couple of years have had rapid changes through the shortages and inflation, so you need to consider todays value not yesterdays.
The solution of course is to actively keep in touch with changing market dynamics. The last couple of years have had rapid changes through the shortages and inflation, so you need to consider todays value not yesterdays.
Maybe that's not so bad? Having a firm internal sense of something's value that prevents you from overspending on it even when it's on discount?
Feels like a lesson every gamer with a Steam Sale backlog could stand to learn.
Feels like a lesson every gamer with a Steam Sale backlog could stand to learn.
What are some of those internal metrics? How did you come across or develop them?
Historical trends, geographical trends, plain old intuition and gut, or any number of angles that you think make sense, but all that goes out of the window if you are in a bad market. The price is what the market is willing to bear, as they say.
I sell second-hand items online, so have been on both sides of the fence when it comes to negotiating.
The number one tip I would give is to always consider the person you are negotiating with (note: "person" != "business") and try to reach a win-win. Make their job easy and maximise their profit/commission.
For example, if someone messages us on Facebook with some links to our eBay listings and asks if we can do a better price, the answer is always yes. We're happy because we don't have to pay eBay's cut of the sales (around 10% usually), the buyer is happy because they get a discount. If they're buying multiple items, even better! We don't have to pay for 5 separate lots of "free shipping".
Same thing when you pay a tradesman in cash. They "forget" to enter your transaction into their accounting system (no tax!), you get a better deal. Not everyone would consider this ethical, of course, but it's the same principle of tit-for-tat.
The number one tip I would give is to always consider the person you are negotiating with (note: "person" != "business") and try to reach a win-win. Make their job easy and maximise their profit/commission.
For example, if someone messages us on Facebook with some links to our eBay listings and asks if we can do a better price, the answer is always yes. We're happy because we don't have to pay eBay's cut of the sales (around 10% usually), the buyer is happy because they get a discount. If they're buying multiple items, even better! We don't have to pay for 5 separate lots of "free shipping".
Same thing when you pay a tradesman in cash. They "forget" to enter your transaction into their accounting system (no tax!), you get a better deal. Not everyone would consider this ethical, of course, but it's the same principle of tit-for-tat.
It's a skill that needs practice to perfect. I wish somebody offered a service where a professional would bargain on your behalf.
Sort of like Leon from Curb Your Enthusiasm showing up to make sure people aren't taken advantage of financially when they're getting work done on their house/car/etc.
IIRC the lesson there seemed to be "you get what you pay for". Everyone was initially happy with the cheaper "solution" that Leon negotiated, but in every case it blew up and became a costlier problem in the end. Each homeowner would have been better off if they'd just done the initial expensive thing rather than eke out a deal. Of course, we're talking about a fictional TV show, so your real-world mileage may vary.
In my experience it’s not really worth negotiating a service price when quality can make a big difference… maybe it’s a coincidence, but the couple times I’ve done it for house construction work I ended up having problems with the results
buying a car or getting a hotel room? not much harm can be done there
buying a car or getting a hotel room? not much harm can be done there
The house husband.
Levels.fyi has a salary negotiation service which people say works well.
https://www.levels.fyi/services/
https://www.levels.fyi/services/
You’re still doing the negotiation, they just tell you what to say and what to ask for - advice unique to your situation.
I came back in France after being used to negotiate for everything in China (even entrance to clubs). I failed miserably. There are definitely cultures where people would lose money rather than negotiate, it’s just badly seen.
Hahaha! I remember when I was in China (and learning some Mandarin), one of the first phrases we learnt was "your calculator must be broken" because in any of the markets people would type numbers into a calculator to show you a price. Saying that in Chinese with a laugh definitely saved a fair few yuan over time (it didn't hurt that they were surprised enough at a westerner speaking Chinese that it got a bit cheaper anyways).
Ha! Yup, I used that, the other trick is to learn the local dialect (Shanghainese in my case) and ask for it to be cheaper in the local dialect. That only really worked though 18 years ago when a bigger percentage of people spoke Shanghainese in Shanghai
Hahaha! This was actually in Shanghai that I learnt this first! (Though hadn't picked up on the shanghainese trick, which sounds very smart)
I would go back and forth between vendors who were selling the same thing, and try to lower the last price I got. At some point you'd reach some sort of floor where nobody would bulge. You'd really know you made a deal if the vendor would be upset at you even though you were buying, and you knew you got ripped off if the vendor had a huge smile and made conversation after you bought.
As a kid and later a student in France, I had a lot of success haggling in computer stores to lower the price even with an online store LDLC (but that was around 2001?) so I'd say haggling di work at least for a while.
I have lived abroad since (including China where I used my negotiating skills a lot :) ) so I'm not sure how it is nowadays.
I have lived abroad since (including China where I used my negotiating skills a lot :) ) so I'm not sure how it is nowadays.
If you allow one person to haggle, everyone hears about this and haggles. It might be theoretically 'losing money' but really it's avoiding entering a situation where there's such downward pressure on your sale prices that you can't survive.
I think it depends on how you approach it. I find people who aren't used to negotiation are the easiest to negotiate with because they get uncomfortable and want to find a workable solution as quickly as possible.
I guess my problem is that, while I believe this is true, I just really really hate the process of haggling.
I agree. Trying to think of why, I think I often see it as a reflection of dishonesty on the part of the seller, or aggressive behavior on the part of the buyer.
If a seller can't set a fair honest nominal price, in the expectation of haggling, it reduces my trust of them in other ways.
There are situations where negotiating makes sense, but often sellers should assume their list price is what they've negotiated.
If a seller can't set a fair honest nominal price, in the expectation of haggling, it reduces my trust of them in other ways.
There are situations where negotiating makes sense, but often sellers should assume their list price is what they've negotiated.
I had to teach myself negotiation because I am not natural at it. I finally figured out a useful hack. My magic words are “What’s your best price?”. I ask it with a friendly, confident tone, as if it were my best friend on the other side of the table. This approach has conservatively saved me tens of thousands of dollars over the years and it is very low stress.
By the way, guitar center doesn’t really negotiate much anymore. They tend to price guitar more realistically than they used to. 10 years ago you could pretty much rely on getting 40% off or so from the price tag, but they’ve trended away from that in the last few years.
By the way, guitar center doesn’t really negotiate much anymore. They tend to price guitar more realistically than they used to. 10 years ago you could pretty much rely on getting 40% off or so from the price tag, but they’ve trended away from that in the last few years.
I have quite a different approach. I would never ask a best friend for a discount, since if I value the friendship, the money matters less than it. (Plus I'd want my best friend to make the money he deserves, not less. A discount is not something I'm entitled to from a friend.) If a sale is a complete rip-off, then I'd rather take my business elsewhere than do a business with a friend whose friendship I value.
I think I may have expressed myself improperly. I am not talking about dealing with an actual best friend. I am saying that I visualize talking as if to my best friend because it’s much less threatening to me than dealing with a difficult adversary.
I was traveling near the South Rim of the Grand Canyon Park. It was late in the evening (around 9PM or so IIRC). Wanted to crash for the night. Found a nice hotel in that cluster of hotels just outside the park. Walked up to the desk, asked for the manager. He comes up. I explain the situation to him: I've been traveling all day, all I need is a warm shower and a bed, and I'll be off in the morning.
He looks at me, writes a figure on a small sheet of paper and slides it over. I look at it, nod and slide it back, thanking him. It was almost half off their advertised rate.
Bonus: he asked me to park in the "employee of the month" parking spot, since that employee wasn't going to be working that night.
He looks at me, writes a figure on a small sheet of paper and slides it over. I look at it, nod and slide it back, thanking him. It was almost half off their advertised rate.
Bonus: he asked me to park in the "employee of the month" parking spot, since that employee wasn't going to be working that night.
I mean isn't this the whole point of professional 'Buyers' at large companies who are negotiating with supplliers?
Everything is negotiable it's just that:
A) Most mortals do not have the leverage to open up a negotiating position (not important enough)
B) Most sellers at a front desk may not have the authority to meet you half way in a negotiation.
Everything is negotiable it's just that:
A) Most mortals do not have the leverage to open up a negotiating position (not important enough)
B) Most sellers at a front desk may not have the authority to meet you half way in a negotiation.
I was at an office supply store trying to buy a chair and an employee told me they didn't have any more of the model I wanted. I pointed to the chair I had just been trying out and he said it was a floor model, but they didn't have any in stock. I asked if I could buy the floor model, and he said yes, but the floor models were more expensive. I said, if anything, the floor models should be less expensive because they were used, he agreed and gave me a discount on the floor model.
Negotiating for price still feels very weird to me in most circumstances though.
Negotiating for price still feels very weird to me in most circumstances though.
I have never heard "floor models are more expensive" before. By definition it's used goods. Wonder why they said that?
I reguarly will buy the last of something and end up taking the floor/display model. Usually for a 10-25% discount (very occasionally more on things most people wouldn't touch the floor model on and have a healthy mark up) on the price they have listed.
That and buying a bunch of things and asking for a discount are the best ways to haggle that I've found. If buying 10 things from a shop (not small ticket items or at chain stores with minimum wage employees) it's usally easy for them to throw in the lowest priced items as "freebies".
I reguarly will buy the last of something and end up taking the floor/display model. Usually for a 10-25% discount (very occasionally more on things most people wouldn't touch the floor model on and have a healthy mark up) on the price they have listed.
That and buying a bunch of things and asking for a discount are the best ways to haggle that I've found. If buying 10 things from a shop (not small ticket items or at chain stores with minimum wage employees) it's usally easy for them to throw in the lowest priced items as "freebies".
Note that this is very culture dependent.
In many African countries, it is expected that you spend 10 minutes bargaining for everything: food, cab fares, etc., and it’s a thing locals do a lot.
In the US, there is a lot of negotiating too. And also a lot of “small bribery”. Things like slipping a 20 dollar bill to someone to get ahead in a line is extremely common.
In Europe it is much less common. Some things like furniture or cars are often negotiated, but the negotiation margins are much much narrower than in the US (I once got a carpet from ABC carpets in NY at 30% of its tag price).
In many African countries, it is expected that you spend 10 minutes bargaining for everything: food, cab fares, etc., and it’s a thing locals do a lot.
In the US, there is a lot of negotiating too. And also a lot of “small bribery”. Things like slipping a 20 dollar bill to someone to get ahead in a line is extremely common.
In Europe it is much less common. Some things like furniture or cars are often negotiated, but the negotiation margins are much much narrower than in the US (I once got a carpet from ABC carpets in NY at 30% of its tag price).
Being a bad haggler, I typically just always say Yes to the first price I'm asked to pay.
I wonder how this changes across different countries. I know in India, there's a lot of flexibility in negotiation/haggling prices.
But living in Germany, I always get the impression that things are fixed price and I typically don't bother negotiating. Unless it's the rare street market/Weihnachtsmarkt where they're willing to negotiate (and even there they usually don't).
I'm curious to know other countries experience if people can chime in.
I wonder how this changes across different countries. I know in India, there's a lot of flexibility in negotiation/haggling prices.
But living in Germany, I always get the impression that things are fixed price and I typically don't bother negotiating. Unless it's the rare street market/Weihnachtsmarkt where they're willing to negotiate (and even there they usually don't).
I'm curious to know other countries experience if people can chime in.
If I think the price is fair, I don’t haggle. If I don’t think the price is fair, I don’t buy at all.
I have better things to do with my time than convince someone something is not worth as much as they want for it.
I have better things to do with my time than convince someone something is not worth as much as they want for it.
When I visited Morocco I discovered that haggling is seen as an intrinsic part of a transaction. A lot of tourists aren't used to haggling or are afraid to do so out of a perceived risk of offending the seller. But if you don't haggle Moroccans will perceive you as weak, even if you think you've got a great deal paying face value.
When I lived in Germany, I've seen haggling for bigger furniture items (like kitchen, fridge, sofas). But that's about it.
Funnily enough, there was a big media frenzy when haggling was legalized* in 2001 that everyone was going to start to haggle in supermarkets and every store would grind to a halt. That obviously didn't happen.
*) Technically, it was legal before, but limited to 3% of the price.
Funnily enough, there was a big media frenzy when haggling was legalized* in 2001 that everyone was going to start to haggle in supermarkets and every store would grind to a halt. That obviously didn't happen.
*) Technically, it was legal before, but limited to 3% of the price.
In Germany you can negotiate a few things down in electronic stores. Particularly if you buy several items. Or if the competitor sells it cheaper.
Same works in Japan. Saved me a few hundred bucks on my TV.
Same works in Japan. Saved me a few hundred bucks on my TV.
I often feel bad asking for a discount. I know that my 10% discount is often halving their profit for the item.
I prefer shops where they have already offered stock at their best price and refuse to price it lower. One less thing to worry about.
I prefer shops where they have already offered stock at their best price and refuse to price it lower. One less thing to worry about.
Profit is different for different items at different businesses.
I'm not a Business Major or anything, but I'm guessing the median mark-up on items is 100% (50% profit). Thus if I get a 40% discount on something (like a mattress), the seller is still most likely making a 20% profit.
I'm not a Business Major or anything, but I'm guessing the median mark-up on items is 100% (50% profit). Thus if I get a 40% discount on something (like a mattress), the seller is still most likely making a 20% profit.
> I'm not a Business Major or anything, but I'm guessing the median mark-up on items is 100% (50% profit).
Well, there's your first problem. A 100% markup will only yield 50% profit if you have no operating costs at all.
Well, there's your first problem. A 100% markup will only yield 50% profit if you have no operating costs at all.
[deleted]
Ha. You can certainly try. For my part I’ve not negotiated as much as I fought irrational [1] or dark pattern charges [2]. Win some, lose some.
Just a few examples:
1) salvage fee. As a youth I had very cheap car. The side panel was seamless with the top of the cab. A driver who pulled out too far into the street just backed up into me and damaged my 1/4 panel. Repair exceeded the “value” of the vehicle. Insurance says they will pay me up to the value of the car, minus salvage fee. Oh. What’s that? It’s the value _they_ would get for junking the car. Why are you entitled to this? Because when we pay the value of the car, we own it. Uh. No you don’t, because I didn’t sell it to you. Round-and-round. I’m one for two on that fight.
2) Square (the online credit card payment peeps) have a dark pattern. A button on the site will, without confirmation, instantly charge you some additional three percent of your receivables to deposit it instantly in your bank account. The button looks exactly like a bunch of other buttons you need to click. Off shore call center will not budge on this one.
Just a few examples:
1) salvage fee. As a youth I had very cheap car. The side panel was seamless with the top of the cab. A driver who pulled out too far into the street just backed up into me and damaged my 1/4 panel. Repair exceeded the “value” of the vehicle. Insurance says they will pay me up to the value of the car, minus salvage fee. Oh. What’s that? It’s the value _they_ would get for junking the car. Why are you entitled to this? Because when we pay the value of the car, we own it. Uh. No you don’t, because I didn’t sell it to you. Round-and-round. I’m one for two on that fight.
2) Square (the online credit card payment peeps) have a dark pattern. A button on the site will, without confirmation, instantly charge you some additional three percent of your receivables to deposit it instantly in your bank account. The button looks exactly like a bunch of other buttons you need to click. Off shore call center will not budge on this one.
The third Rule of Acquisition states: Never spend more for an acquisition than you have to.
* https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Rules_of_Acquisition
* https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Ferengi_Rules_of_Acquisi...
Clips of all of them being said:
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G-7aw6vurY
I wish I could memorized them more readily, but I have to real practical reason to keep them stored in my head, but I wish I could have them handy for funsies just because.
* https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Ferengi_Rules_of_Acquisi...
Clips of all of them being said:
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G-7aw6vurY
I wish I could memorized them more readily, but I have to real practical reason to keep them stored in my head, but I wish I could have them handy for funsies just because.
So glad I’m not the only one who sometimes quotes those. Brought a smile to my face today, thank you.
DS9 really is the best trek, makes me wonder about peace is good for business/war is good for business.
Just don't take to bartering with people who are selling to make ends meet. Save it for the luxury hotels, big airlines, exclusive shops, who are already making bank.
Don’t negotiate on price, you have no leverage.
Instead negotiate on value. If you’re going to pay such a higher price, find out what else you can get that is valuable to you but of little value to them. For instance instead of 40% off on rooms, I’ve gotten free upgrades to better rooms, with late 3pm checkouts.
Instead negotiate on value. If you’re going to pay such a higher price, find out what else you can get that is valuable to you but of little value to them. For instance instead of 40% off on rooms, I’ve gotten free upgrades to better rooms, with late 3pm checkouts.
This is absolutely true. I done that some years ago in a car dealership, where I got the car with a tow hitch and a spare wheel instead a repairing kit paying the same price.
I don't like doing so. I don't want to have to be fake-friendly with people just to get the 'best' price on something, and leave feeling like I could probably have paid less if I'd just negotiated harder.
It's too much mental effort and I don't find there's any mental reward to the process. It doesn't feel like I got "a deal" it feels like the business or individual I negotiated with is probably trying to rip me off, and probably succeeded.
I'll get the best price by businesses competing with each other for my custom. Or I won't. Either way 'haggling' is alien to me and I prefer the world to be more straightforward.
It's too much mental effort and I don't find there's any mental reward to the process. It doesn't feel like I got "a deal" it feels like the business or individual I negotiated with is probably trying to rip me off, and probably succeeded.
I'll get the best price by businesses competing with each other for my custom. Or I won't. Either way 'haggling' is alien to me and I prefer the world to be more straightforward.
I'm really really bad at this.
in fact I'm so bad at this that it extends to the inability to see prices on items.
If I walk into a shop and notice that it doesn't have prices on items I'll walk out. I do NOT want to be talked into buying something.
in fact I'm so bad at this that it extends to the inability to see prices on items.
If I walk into a shop and notice that it doesn't have prices on items I'll walk out. I do NOT want to be talked into buying something.
Same here. If I had to live in an area where negotiating was commonplace and online shopping was an option, I'd be doing a lot more of the latter. See price, decide I'm happy with that buy, decide I'm not, don't. If I don't see an obvious price I assume it is too much, or that there will be a painful (for me) negotiation (or massive upsell to try to avoid).
Unless it is something I really need/want, in which case I might have to step out of that comfort zone. But retailers might be surprised by how much I'm willing to do without in order to avoid that!
Unless it is something I really need/want, in which case I might have to step out of that comfort zone. But retailers might be surprised by how much I'm willing to do without in order to avoid that!
Those shops are for other people than you or I. Those who don't care about spending money, or so busy buying everything they see.
The last thing you want to do with a customer like that is remind them they are spending money.
The last thing you want to do with a customer like that is remind them they are spending money.
that costs time and mental energy it's not always worth.
This.
The price i pay for not dealing with the stress of haggling is well worth it for most things (salaries an exception where it may be worth it)
The price i pay for not dealing with the stress of haggling is well worth it for most things (salaries an exception where it may be worth it)
Even if I'm only going to save $1-$10, I'm still going to attempt as it helps me build experience for when I do negotiate something where I might save hundreds or thousands of dollars.
I don't view negotiating as something stressful.
I don't view negotiating as something stressful.
Yesterday, Comcast tried to start charging me 2.5x for my Internet service... I called to cancel the service and all of a sudden, they were able to give me the old price...
They may secretly start throttling you/adding latency to get you to call back. I may be crazy, but after I renegotiated a higher speed for a lower price, I have been having all kinds of crazy latency/timeout issues that don't happen on a VPN.
Squeaky wheel gets the grease. If you call a few times to complain about your network speed, the problems have a way of just disappearing.
If the isp throttles you, why they left vpn connections alone? My guess it's just suboptimal peering on their part and/or overloaded dns server. Those are my top issues with my ISP and they're gone with vpn (vpn providers has different peering and their own dns server).
Yes, it could be. What are some good tools to debug every step in the connection? Traceroute doesn't seem super useful in this case.
I have custom DNS setup, that didn't seem to improve it much.
BTW traffic being faster in a VPN is pretty common for ISP throttling, for whatever reason.
I have custom DNS setup, that didn't seem to improve it much.
BTW traffic being faster in a VPN is pretty common for ISP throttling, for whatever reason.
Basically just traceroute, and perhaps combined with looking up your isp's peering information (and their peer's peering information, depending on how deep you want to investigate them) on peeringdb.com . For example, you might discover your isp will use route traffics to a certain website via a slow peer based on your traceroute information and data on peeringdb.com.
But like you said, it's not useful to us as a customer of an ISP because we can't alter the routing table used by the ISP even if we identified a problematic routes/peers. You can try to complain to their customer support, and might get lucky if the customer support has technical authority to debug peering issues.
But like you said, it's not useful to us as a customer of an ISP because we can't alter the routing table used by the ISP even if we identified a problematic routes/peers. You can try to complain to their customer support, and might get lucky if the customer support has technical authority to debug peering issues.
Retention department is always a great place to get a deal for this type of thing. Same with wireless.
Sadly, in my experience this only works if there's a viable competitor in your area. Last time I asked to be transferred to the retention department, after getting nowhere with the Comcast rep, the only question they had for me was "what date should we process the disconnect for?"
When it happened in my area they told me they (Comcast) couldnt compete the the fiber service in my city in term of cost and speed. They didn't even try to retain.
Ferengi Rules of Acquisition #141: Only a fool pays retail.
* https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Rules_of_Acquisition
* https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Ferengi_Rules_of_Acquisi...
* https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Rules_of_Acquisition
* https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Ferengi_Rules_of_Acquisi...
Game of Thrones pro tip: the Iron Price is even cheaper.
https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Iron_price
https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Iron_price
I'm not usually too fussy on phones. When an old phone fell out of my motorbike pocket and smashed the screen I walked into a mobile phone shop and picked up a fairly basic android phone which happened to be about the right price point.
However, when our first child was born it quickly became apparent the camera wasn't good enough (especially with one set of her grandparents being long distance).
So I went into the shop and told them I wanted one of 3 phones which had the best cameras at the time. The per month price was £42 a month so quite a big step up from what I was paying. However, they also wanted to charge £100 to end the contract early. After a bit of back and forth they reduced this by about £20. I refused the deal and walked next door to a coffee shop.
I sat down with a coffee and called the customer services for my mobile phone provider. Told the woman why I needed a new phone but that I didn't want to pay the contract fee. Five minutes later the fee disappeared and inexplicably the price for the contract also dropped by £10 a month. The new phone was shipped overnight.
However, when our first child was born it quickly became apparent the camera wasn't good enough (especially with one set of her grandparents being long distance).
So I went into the shop and told them I wanted one of 3 phones which had the best cameras at the time. The per month price was £42 a month so quite a big step up from what I was paying. However, they also wanted to charge £100 to end the contract early. After a bit of back and forth they reduced this by about £20. I refused the deal and walked next door to a coffee shop.
I sat down with a coffee and called the customer services for my mobile phone provider. Told the woman why I needed a new phone but that I didn't want to pay the contract fee. Five minutes later the fee disappeared and inexplicably the price for the contract also dropped by £10 a month. The new phone was shipped overnight.
It's not inexplicable. The cost of various sales channels is different. Online and over-the-phone are significantly cheaper than retail or in-store.
Large companies maintain physical presence for brand building and to help customers who need more assistance. They indirectly charge for that.
Large companies maintain physical presence for brand building and to help customers who need more assistance. They indirectly charge for that.
Herb Cohen - You Can Negotiate Anything (1980) thaught me this. Got that book from a street salesman in China. One of the few English paperbacks he had. It was old and great.
Few memories that seem relevant:
- The advice is to negotiate by building a relationship or mutual understanding. The opposite party should feel good about granting you the sales and not begrudge your style or demands. He had chapters about how to socialize what is essentially a trade. Chat them up, show them why you would like the product, etc. Some of that feels old fashioned.
- You can't one-time negatiate something through display of power. That's a negotiation style for repeat negotiations where you balance your display of power with a loss of future bargaining power.
- Can't negotiate when the other party has no skin in the game. Be it the owner of the store, or someone selling on a concept of commission: they can oversee the financial consequences of your willingness to strike a deal. Can't negotiate with hourly wagers in large firms.. Unless (relationship) they like you and are allowed to decide on prices.
Few memories that seem relevant:
- The advice is to negotiate by building a relationship or mutual understanding. The opposite party should feel good about granting you the sales and not begrudge your style or demands. He had chapters about how to socialize what is essentially a trade. Chat them up, show them why you would like the product, etc. Some of that feels old fashioned.
- You can't one-time negatiate something through display of power. That's a negotiation style for repeat negotiations where you balance your display of power with a loss of future bargaining power.
- Can't negotiate when the other party has no skin in the game. Be it the owner of the store, or someone selling on a concept of commission: they can oversee the financial consequences of your willingness to strike a deal. Can't negotiate with hourly wagers in large firms.. Unless (relationship) they like you and are allowed to decide on prices.
I work as an independent consultant. Few months ago, just starting, one prospective client (through their CFO/COO suggested is shaved 33% of my quoted daily rate. I offered a $50 discount instead on the daily rate because i had heard the CEO on a podcast and I was interested to learn more about their company. We verbally agreed on a daily rate and a weekly 1 day commitment.
At week 5 client tells me they'll pay only 2 of the almost 4 days I had done already cause "they thought the report after the 2 first days was all what was due" BS :(.
1. I should have seen it coming - entitled dude took on himself to get the 33% discount he thought he deserved. 2. It sucked. I spent some time since writing some agreement template and will slowly roll them out with new clients.
1. I should have seen it coming - entitled dude took on himself to get the 33% discount he thought he deserved. 2. It sucked. I spent some time since writing some agreement template and will slowly roll them out with new clients.
Immigrant parents teach you this pretty early on lol :).
The only things I negotiate on are salary, car price, and home loans. For the latter two, I obtain a dozen or so quotes by email, then go round-robin with every other option asking if they can beat the best quote so far. Repeat until no one goes any lower.
I would have negotiated my job offer in a similar way but got a good offer sooner than I expected and didn’t have any other offers in the pipeline. The recruiter was refreshingly honest about it too, “I’m not going to lie and tell you we can’t go higher, but you would need a counteroffer”.
For anything other than massively expensive purchases or job offers, negotiating doesn’t really seem worth the time and tends to give off vibes as a difficult customer or a cheapskate (at least in the U.S.)
I would have negotiated my job offer in a similar way but got a good offer sooner than I expected and didn’t have any other offers in the pipeline. The recruiter was refreshingly honest about it too, “I’m not going to lie and tell you we can’t go higher, but you would need a counteroffer”.
For anything other than massively expensive purchases or job offers, negotiating doesn’t really seem worth the time and tends to give off vibes as a difficult customer or a cheapskate (at least in the U.S.)
Despite the fact that negotiations are a core part of Chinese business practices, in the tea industry nobody worth their salt would ever ask for a lower price. The seller will always give you a lower price if you ask, but then also give you a lower grade product without telling you. The best you can do is get the right product at the right price.
Negotiations have their place, but you also have to consider if this is the right place. In my small business I will give a small discount if somebody asks, but they get themselves added to the "don't bother helping them" category of customer.
Negotiations have their place, but you also have to consider if this is the right place. In my small business I will give a small discount if somebody asks, but they get themselves added to the "don't bother helping them" category of customer.
In many places outside the US haggling is the norm. People expect it so the initial price is way higher than what the person will accept. You through the same process everytime. You offer half and you work your way up until you meet or walk away. Overtime it is just a waste of time and energy. One offs is not too bad but if you have to do it for everything, it sux. I would hate for it to become the norm. I won't do it. I don't want to encourage it. Our current system is not perfect but haggling for everything is worse.
I hate the practice of haggling because it is based on an asymmetry in the knowledge of the sellers and buyers. Instead, I'd prefer that all past sales be visible in a publicly accessible database, so that you could just see how much other people have been paying for stuff. Selling at a different price than the one that is recorded should then be a grave offense, a form of fraud.
Even going to her cousin’s birthday is negotiable.
In India almost 20 years ago I learned I can negotiate everything down from the tourist price to rich Indian price to not so rich Indian price to get change on my banknotes price. It does take a lot of time though so I didn’t keep doing it. Also the last price point is ridiculous as a foreigner since you cannot do anything with the change.
I needed to order some parts from an online store, and I missed their sale. So I figured I would email them and ask for a discount.
Turns out if I bought a minimum amount they were willing to give me a significant discount - much better than the sale pirce, and the minimum amount wasn't that much.
I may start doing this a lot - just email and ask for a coupon.
Turns out if I bought a minimum amount they were willing to give me a significant discount - much better than the sale pirce, and the minimum amount wasn't that much.
I may start doing this a lot - just email and ask for a coupon.
Sure. You can. I find using Craigslist and slickdeals to be better though, honestly.
Instead of trying to negotiate fruitlessly 100x (I have enough experience to know this doesn’t work well anymore and is a time waster) I just wait for the deal to happen for me.
So far - it’s worked great and people around me are impressed. As they say, hurry up and wait.
Instead of trying to negotiate fruitlessly 100x (I have enough experience to know this doesn’t work well anymore and is a time waster) I just wait for the deal to happen for me.
So far - it’s worked great and people around me are impressed. As they say, hurry up and wait.
On topic of saving money, did you know there are countless VC backed startups either selling/delivering grocery or meal packs with significant discounts for first few orders. If you just sign up to each, get a few orders and cancel, you'll end up saving multiple $100 before you go through all of them.
I think I put haggling in the same category as tipping. As in I absolutely hate having to participate. Just mark up the food 20% and remove tipping, same with haggling, just give me a fair price and let's move on. Haggling seem so stressful and a complete waste of everyone's time.
Small one but I negotiated at Safeway (chain grocery store in parts of the US) recently, for an item without a price tag. Ended up getting it for a dollar, half of the original offer of $2. Later found out the real price was like $6 which would have been a bit of a ripoff.
Anybody managed to negotiate price of rent before choosing the place?
What is the strategy there?
I once negotiated my rent up. In the tight rental market pre-COVID, I needed a place for my family while we waited six months for the purchase of our house to close.
Our current living situation was intolerable due to unending construction noise next door, and the minimum time you could rent an apartment for was 6 months, so it was a matter of moving right now or being stuck until we took possession of the house.
Found the perfect place, at a reasonable price, and of course there was tons of interest in it. I insisted on getting the first viewing appointment, put in an application immediately, and offered the landlords an extra $50/month on top of the rent they were asking.
So, of course my application was the one they accepted. In this situation, $300 very well spent.
Our current living situation was intolerable due to unending construction noise next door, and the minimum time you could rent an apartment for was 6 months, so it was a matter of moving right now or being stuck until we took possession of the house.
Found the perfect place, at a reasonable price, and of course there was tons of interest in it. I insisted on getting the first viewing appointment, put in an application immediately, and offered the landlords an extra $50/month on top of the rent they were asking.
So, of course my application was the one they accepted. In this situation, $300 very well spent.
That makes sense, I am remember contacting too many too good to be true ads without response.
I came here to save $ but I guess I will spend more thanks to this thread
honestly, luck. I successfully negotiated my rent down a whole 6.6% due to my old landlord and my new landlord being friends and having a good word put in for me.
I was unfortunately raised to be ashamed to haggle. It is such a limiting trait but it is deeply engrained in my upbringing so I find it painful to engage in these sorts of negotiations, up to and including for salary. Any tips on how to get more comfy with this?
There are programs and books on this subject. I'm not an expert, and I need this education also; so here's a quick starting point I just found: https://daringtolivefully.com/how-to-ask-for-what-you-want
This may not be the best starting point, but it's a place.
A friend took some coaching class once where they were given "scary" human interaction challenges, starting with very small simple ones and working up to ones where you would expect to get slapped. Not only did it help condition my friend to be more outgoing, but he got a surprising number of "Ok"s. I'm not sure this is the best approach, but it appeared to be effective.
And it reminds me of this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vZXgApsPCQ
This may not be the best starting point, but it's a place.
A friend took some coaching class once where they were given "scary" human interaction challenges, starting with very small simple ones and working up to ones where you would expect to get slapped. Not only did it help condition my friend to be more outgoing, but he got a surprising number of "Ok"s. I'm not sure this is the best approach, but it appeared to be effective.
And it reminds me of this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vZXgApsPCQ
Holy crap! I had no idea, my eyes are open.
I've always assumed prices at retail shops are fixed, because, for the brief (and horrible) period of time _I_ worked retail, prices are set by corporate...
Any suggestions? Advice? Links? Primers?
I've negotiated my whole life for salary and consulting rate, but never negotiated anything else.
Additionally, for anyone reading this that doesn't know it, you CAN negotiate AirBNB rates, and often do it in a way where you AND the host are happier. I didn't know this until being with someone who runs several top-tier AirBNB houses.
Some AirBNB hosts would be happier letting you stay for a few days "officially" (to make sure you're not crazy or a jerk), and then extend the reservation in cash. Or book the reservation for a long duration, then shorten it once you check in.
It varies from location to location but we sometimes offered guests a 15% off discount if paid in cash, frequently it worked out that we got the same amount.
I've always assumed prices at retail shops are fixed, because, for the brief (and horrible) period of time _I_ worked retail, prices are set by corporate...
Any suggestions? Advice? Links? Primers?
I've negotiated my whole life for salary and consulting rate, but never negotiated anything else.
Additionally, for anyone reading this that doesn't know it, you CAN negotiate AirBNB rates, and often do it in a way where you AND the host are happier. I didn't know this until being with someone who runs several top-tier AirBNB houses.
Some AirBNB hosts would be happier letting you stay for a few days "officially" (to make sure you're not crazy or a jerk), and then extend the reservation in cash. Or book the reservation for a long duration, then shorten it once you check in.
It varies from location to location but we sometimes offered guests a 15% off discount if paid in cash, frequently it worked out that we got the same amount.
In countries with a haggle culture every retail price is the most high fuck you and the horse you ride on price and people will thibk you are incredibly stupid if you accept it, unless you're rich.
It frustrates my partner to no end. I always ask for a discount. Worst case you end up paying the amount you expect, best case you open up a window to negotiations of a discount. It never hurts to ask.
Your partner is perceiving a cost that you do not.
Is this country-specific to some extent? I can’t quite picture negotiating a sticker price on most goods or services in the UK.
Could be a lack of imagination on my side ofc.
Could be a lack of imagination on my side ofc.
I usually haggle on large purchases like home appliances or furniture. You can easily get a small discount, or free delivery.
[deleted]
Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should do something.
If that doesn’t work, ask for the cash discount.
As an American I would consider this very rude
Negotiate the other way and see what happens.
Is this "Im Rich" humblebrag?
After reading about it on Reddit, I‘ve shown up to hotels and gotten 40% off initial price.
At Guitar Center, you can negotiate the price of guitars.
I’ve seen people negotiate a round of shots in NYC.
The world exists out there at a discount if you’re willing to ask for it.