Ask HN: Has Marvel got out of hand?
So many Marvel releases lately, and they’re all generic and look the same aesthetically. It’s as if they just copy and paste stuff from other Marvel releases and just tweak it a bit. We’ve reached peak Marvel IMHO. Has it all got out of hand?
52 comments
4Tbps over a single fibre [1] does seems a bit over the top.
Oh, one "L", carry on.
[1]: https://www.marvell.com/products/optical-modules.html
Oh, one "L", carry on.
[1]: https://www.marvell.com/products/optical-modules.html
> It’s as if they just copy and paste
I don't see it. Love and Thunder was nothing like Moon Knight, which was nothing like Ms. Marvel, which was nothing like Doctor Strange. Can you point out what you think was generic, or how Thor looks aesthetically the same as Doctor Strange?
I do think it's strange that phase 4 has more hours of content than phases 1-3 combined.
I don't see it. Love and Thunder was nothing like Moon Knight, which was nothing like Ms. Marvel, which was nothing like Doctor Strange. Can you point out what you think was generic, or how Thor looks aesthetically the same as Doctor Strange?
I do think it's strange that phase 4 has more hours of content than phases 1-3 combined.
Maybe within the genre the films are different to each other, but I think the point being made is within the world of film as a whole, they all look the same, and use the same tried and tested formulae.
> Maybe within the genre the films are different to each other
Remove the Marvel bits from Love and Thunder or Doctor Strange, and they still stand on their own with entirely different art direction, thematic elements, conflict, and stories.
> they all look the same
See my previous comment. I don't see it. I can easily spot differences between each property, the same way I can spot similarities between any other two random non-Marvel movies. I suppose you're going to see what you want to see.
Remove the Marvel bits from Love and Thunder or Doctor Strange, and they still stand on their own with entirely different art direction, thematic elements, conflict, and stories.
> they all look the same
See my previous comment. I don't see it. I can easily spot differences between each property, the same way I can spot similarities between any other two random non-Marvel movies. I suppose you're going to see what you want to see.
I am not a big fan of the Marvel franchise, although I enjoyed Thor Ragnarok, but I’m passionate about film. All I see is Marvel (Disney) as a sausage machine churning this stuff out until interest wanes.
Seems maybe not too different from what Marvel did with their comics in the 90s? Excess number of titles, vague boring sameness, convoluted reboots.
Eventually there was a huge comics industry-wide bust. But that was also tied to the speculator/collector aspect which doesn't directly apply to film.
Eventually there was a huge comics industry-wide bust. But that was also tied to the speculator/collector aspect which doesn't directly apply to film.
IMHO Marvel became a victim of it's own (incredibly successful) formula. Avengers EndGame was truly an incredible movie to top off a decade of great story-telling across multiple solo and team movies where both the heroes and the antagonists were steadily built up until the absolute crescendo that was EndGame.
Of course the storyline was riddled with plotholes and was logically a bit messy and the movies ranged from great to not-so-great, but it delivered that incredible build-up-and-release that everyone was waiting for (I literally screamt, laughed, clapped and cried in that one movie alongside a packed theater)
But since that high, since that chapter closed beautifully, the new "phase" of Marvel needs a lot of the same world building from zero, but now, everything feels much more formulaic. Add to it, directors getting more freedom to be stylistically seperate (eg. the new Thor is more comedy, the new Strange had elements of horror) means that the fanbase has no coherent thread to hold onto.
Finally, just a reminder that most of us are now a decade older (and hopefully wiser ;)) and don't really want to follow movies + TV series which are now critical to even understand canon (eg. I had never watched any of the earlier MCU TV series, but never missed them, but I know if someone skipped Wandaverse, then the new Strange movie will be missing a lot of context)
Of course the storyline was riddled with plotholes and was logically a bit messy and the movies ranged from great to not-so-great, but it delivered that incredible build-up-and-release that everyone was waiting for (I literally screamt, laughed, clapped and cried in that one movie alongside a packed theater)
But since that high, since that chapter closed beautifully, the new "phase" of Marvel needs a lot of the same world building from zero, but now, everything feels much more formulaic. Add to it, directors getting more freedom to be stylistically seperate (eg. the new Thor is more comedy, the new Strange had elements of horror) means that the fanbase has no coherent thread to hold onto.
Finally, just a reminder that most of us are now a decade older (and hopefully wiser ;)) and don't really want to follow movies + TV series which are now critical to even understand canon (eg. I had never watched any of the earlier MCU TV series, but never missed them, but I know if someone skipped Wandaverse, then the new Strange movie will be missing a lot of context)
Endgame was the peak of over a decade of movies with a massive cast and high stakes. It's expected that anything that is released immediately after it will be anti climatic. At the moment the movies we've seen since don't seem to be heading into a common theme (the big bad like thanos) and therefore audiences find it hard to see the films as part of a bigger picture. Add to that the TV shows which appear to be focusing on less known characters and everything becomes more incoherent and less connected (for example shang chi was a decent fantasy movie but felt completely unconnected to the others).
Personally I still watch all of them and I even enjoy Ms Marvel, which got very badly reviewed online to be decent, but you have to consider it as its own stand alone story and the fact that it's targeted to a younger audience.
Personally I still watch all of them and I even enjoy Ms Marvel, which got very badly reviewed online to be decent, but you have to consider it as its own stand alone story and the fact that it's targeted to a younger audience.
That's something I wont ever understand: Endgame was one of the biggest disapointment of my life. Everything was bad: plot (Time travel really ? "lets just go back and get the stones ?"), characters ("Bad Thanos" really ? He is stronger than ironman final version + captain america + thor WITHOUT THE FUCKING STONES), humour, 0 attention to details. I could go on for an hour
This was hard to me ESPECIALLY in comparison to Infinity War which was one of the best action movie I've ever seen in all this aspects, and all the build up they did for endgame.
Every time i see a comment like yours I'm like "wtf are people that blind"
This was hard to me ESPECIALLY in comparison to Infinity War which was one of the best action movie I've ever seen in all this aspects, and all the build up they did for endgame.
Every time i see a comment like yours I'm like "wtf are people that blind"
This has been true almost the whole time, with only occasional exceptions. They rarely take any chances on the themes (when they bother to have any of note at all), pull back before making any kind of point or taking any kind of stance on the rare occasions that they do, have mostly-terrible original music (and often make poor use of their soundtrack in general) which is why they've switched to just mining pop hits for soundtracks (a nice work-around for that problem, but it gets old after a while), and in terms of cinematography are oatmeal for the most part—bland and flavorless. There are endless YouTube videos analyzing essentially all of these failures.
At this point they're on such a conveyor belt that they do a bunch of the CG before shooting starts or they have a final script. But, again, that's not new, they've been operating that way for a while.
[EDIT] I write this as someone who's seen just about everything except a couple of the most recent films. To be clear, the overall project is pretty impressive, but part of why it's impressive is that they've managed to consistently be almost bad enough to be actually-bad, while still holding it together enough that they're not quite bad-bad, just... economical, profitable, and low-risk. And they do consistently manage to make entire films that hold together OK in terms of plotting, pacing, et c., which one might think wouldn't be impressive except... well, I'll refrain from mentioning my #1-with-a-bullet example of a high-budget recent-ish film (from Disney, even!) that completely fails at those basics to such a degree that it deserves to be studied in film class for its failures, for fear of veering into an offtopic flame war, but let's just say that's not a given so it's a bit impressive they've had essentially no complete face-plants over so many films.
At this point they're on such a conveyor belt that they do a bunch of the CG before shooting starts or they have a final script. But, again, that's not new, they've been operating that way for a while.
[EDIT] I write this as someone who's seen just about everything except a couple of the most recent films. To be clear, the overall project is pretty impressive, but part of why it's impressive is that they've managed to consistently be almost bad enough to be actually-bad, while still holding it together enough that they're not quite bad-bad, just... economical, profitable, and low-risk. And they do consistently manage to make entire films that hold together OK in terms of plotting, pacing, et c., which one might think wouldn't be impressive except... well, I'll refrain from mentioning my #1-with-a-bullet example of a high-budget recent-ish film (from Disney, even!) that completely fails at those basics to such a degree that it deserves to be studied in film class for its failures, for fear of veering into an offtopic flame war, but let's just say that's not a given so it's a bit impressive they've had essentially no complete face-plants over so many films.
It's just Disney milking the Marvel cow. We all knew this is how it'd go with the acquisition, extremely predictable.
I hate to complain but: Ask HN is quickly becoming ask reddit.
Really? You needed this community to weigh in on pop-culture and movies? This needs to be flagged off asap.
Like what is this? Is this a karma ploy?
Really? You needed this community to weigh in on pop-culture and movies? This needs to be flagged off asap.
Like what is this? Is this a karma ploy?
How can you watch Ms Marvel and think this is copy paste or looks generic? The characters, culture, and art style are pretty unique and make the show quite enjoyable, and I am generally uninterested in the Marvel universe.
Loki was also very different and had a unique look.
Each one of these little series has been pretty enjoyable and different, and I found myself pleasantly surprised. The movies however are not my cup of tea and do seem repetitive and generic with some notable exceptions like Thor Ragnarok.
Loki was also very different and had a unique look.
Each one of these little series has been pretty enjoyable and different, and I found myself pleasantly surprised. The movies however are not my cup of tea and do seem repetitive and generic with some notable exceptions like Thor Ragnarok.
Their release schedule isn't that different than previous years.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that some people here are simply feeling the vibe less right now -- it's likely because of the woman-centered vibe, and HN leans dudeward.
As a woman, I think this is great! :D But it also means that if that's not your thing (and it can be, blamelessly, not your thing!) the content is going to appear more "generic" (in the words of OP,) more self-similar, as we humans tend to notice variations and differences in things that appeal to us. Wines, clothes, cars, guns, teas, pens, whatever. If it fascinates you, it's gonna have depth.
But if it doesn't? You're gonna see an undifferentiated wash.
This is the mechanism behind why I can get hyper-technical in my kitchen -- I like food -- but cars, which one of my old boyfriends was obssessed with, all seem more or less interchangeable. Same-y. Cut-and-paste.
Because I wasn't into cars, I couldn't really tell them apart.
But since I'm into food, I see tiny details! I can ~go on~ about the specific differences in, say, grades of USA steak, they are so different lol
I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that some people here are simply feeling the vibe less right now -- it's likely because of the woman-centered vibe, and HN leans dudeward.
As a woman, I think this is great! :D But it also means that if that's not your thing (and it can be, blamelessly, not your thing!) the content is going to appear more "generic" (in the words of OP,) more self-similar, as we humans tend to notice variations and differences in things that appeal to us. Wines, clothes, cars, guns, teas, pens, whatever. If it fascinates you, it's gonna have depth.
But if it doesn't? You're gonna see an undifferentiated wash.
This is the mechanism behind why I can get hyper-technical in my kitchen -- I like food -- but cars, which one of my old boyfriends was obssessed with, all seem more or less interchangeable. Same-y. Cut-and-paste.
Because I wasn't into cars, I couldn't really tell them apart.
But since I'm into food, I see tiny details! I can ~go on~ about the specific differences in, say, grades of USA steak, they are so different lol
It's tough to top their arc with Infinity Way/Endgame. They definitely need to regain focus on where they want to go since they are introducing so many new characters.
I cant remember the last Marvel film I watched, it may have been Endgame. I find them to be rather grey, passionless affairs, lacking in any depth or decent character development.
I watched Top Gun Maverick last week and it was so much better as an action/adventure film than the multitude of Superhero films released over the last 15 years. The ariel dogfights were a hundred times more exhilirating than anything in a Marvel film.
I watched Top Gun Maverick last week and it was so much better as an action/adventure film than the multitude of Superhero films released over the last 15 years. The ariel dogfights were a hundred times more exhilirating than anything in a Marvel film.
It’s become formulaic, and Marvel seems very self-aware of this… which is why they seem to be doing their damn best to serve something different each time. It seems almost desperate? But the underlying tones remain the same.
I’m getting bored, and this is coming from a former avid comic book fan (as a kid) who went f’ing ape shit went it became “real” via movies. First time I saw Iron Man I completely geeked out.
And that’s the problem. 15 years later, I’m bored. Other movies outside of the marvel universe continue to excite me. This very much feels like a stale relationship… it’s me, not Marvel? But then I saw this post and realized others may feel the same way.
I couldn’t even begin to suggest what they should try next.
I’m getting bored, and this is coming from a former avid comic book fan (as a kid) who went f’ing ape shit went it became “real” via movies. First time I saw Iron Man I completely geeked out.
And that’s the problem. 15 years later, I’m bored. Other movies outside of the marvel universe continue to excite me. This very much feels like a stale relationship… it’s me, not Marvel? But then I saw this post and realized others may feel the same way.
I couldn’t even begin to suggest what they should try next.
I kind of lost track after Captain America with a occasional step in like Dr. Strange and I've never been able to keep up. So many movies, so many series, so many sequels, so much content... to the point I can't distinguish it anymore.
The comic books are the same. You'd have to buy dozens of them in different series if you wanted a comprehensive story line of the Infinity Gauntlet, for example. At least movies are less expensive.
I was talking about that w/ my son, how it's just been years (Guardians of the Galaxy in 2014?) since we cared about a Marvel movie.
Huh, I've personally enjoyed most everything up to Phase 4. The Phase 4 movies (other than Black Widow) have been pretty meh in my opinion. The Phase 4 tv shows have been pretty good, except for the fact that they mostly seem like build up for something else. I really enjoyed Hawkeye and I think Moon Knight is my other fav from this.
While I'm not into the MCU in any way, I do see that 2 of the top 10 domestic box office draws were released in the last year. The latest Thor seems to be on track to be the 10th best if opening weekend is a predictor.
So as long as the MCU can bring in 1.3 billion a shot (like the latest Spiderman) they would appear to have little incentive change what appears to be working.
So as long as the MCU can bring in 1.3 billion a shot (like the latest Spiderman) they would appear to have little incentive change what appears to be working.
The 4th wall's about to break. There's been cracks in it for a while now. So it's a moot point.
(You probably noticed the 5D/Web5 discussions starting to tip finally ...)
What Marvel is releasing won't be what you're focused on as the adventure of life will be far more fantastic than anything we could ever put into a book.
(You probably noticed the 5D/Web5 discussions starting to tip finally ...)
What Marvel is releasing won't be what you're focused on as the adventure of life will be far more fantastic than anything we could ever put into a book.
Yes, but not for any of the reasons that you have listed. The current problem with Marvel is that the overall universe is unfocused, even as the individual movies are on average still decent. I don't know what they are building to as a part of Phase 4 which is a huge departure from Phases 2 and 3.
Everyone is just ripping off DBZ. Fight, Lose, Train, Fight, Win!
And add a healthy dose of screaming in between each step.
And add a healthy dose of screaming in between each step.
Have the cultural undercurrents that made the franchise popular in the first place abated at all?
On one hand there were internal factors: Marvel spent a long time building up a brand, plus Disney figuring out a good formula that blended good acting (Robert Downey Jr. in Iron Man) with special effects and gimmicks that straddle the line between stupid and awesome (the S.H.I.E.L.D. heli-carrier)
One big external factor has been China as a market. That one is definitely on the outs
https://movieweb.com/chinese-censorship-in-the-mcu/
One big external factor has been China as a market. That one is definitely on the outs
https://movieweb.com/chinese-censorship-in-the-mcu/
Interestingly, Disney didn't have anything to do with the original Iron Man. I believe it was a Paramount picture[0]. Disney only bought Marvel at the end of 2009[1] after the second Incredible Hulk movie[2]. Otherwise, I think that I completely agree with your comment.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man_(2008_film)
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Studios#Disney_conglome...
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_the_Marvel_Cinemati...
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man_(2008_film)
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Studios#Disney_conglome...
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_the_Marvel_Cinemati...
Given that new releases still top the box office, audiences haven't hit the peak yet.
Isn't everything produced for mass appeal algorithmic? They even have a tropes wiki. And i'd take that any day over the arthouse originals the Elevated folks spawn.
At the end it's economics that dictate what goes out hand or not.
At the end it's economics that dictate what goes out hand or not.
If you compare them to what DC is doing, I think they are doing fine. I would be interested to see a chart comparing DC vs Marvel rotten tomato scores. For that matter, Marvel rotten tomato scores over time.
I have lost track of them now. It is giving me "Fast and Furious" vibes which is not a good benchmark to compete with. Too many, too often. They are milking it like crazy.
The complexity of the Marvel universe is making it harder to miss a few films or shows and then come back to it without doing a big catch-up. I feel like they are going all-in on the fans, at the expense of the more casual audience like me.
I’m going to watch the new Thor, but I’m not sure I have the time or energy to invest in catching up on all the stuff I need to watch to get the most from the Spider-Man/Strange/Wanda thread.
However I’m probably in a small enough group that Marvel see that as an ok trade off to make something rich and complex for the fans, which is fine.
I’m going to watch the new Thor, but I’m not sure I have the time or energy to invest in catching up on all the stuff I need to watch to get the most from the Spider-Man/Strange/Wanda thread.
However I’m probably in a small enough group that Marvel see that as an ok trade off to make something rich and complex for the fans, which is fine.
It'll hurt them if they keep going down that road. Endless tie-ins and multi-series connected "events" are commonly considered to be part of the reason comic books got into trouble in the 80s/90s. It's a sales boost at first, but it turns off new readers/viewers.
I mean, people keep watching those new films and they make bank. They'll move on to a different franchise when it stops becoming profitable.
Disney will continue producing low-quality content so long as fanboys continue paying to see the movies and buying the merchandise.
no franchise longs survives resort to time travel.
The Temporal Consistency Agency find it convenient that the concept be regarded risible.
The Temporal Consistency Agency find it convenient that the concept be regarded risible.
I find most of the new Star Trek shows unbearable for this reason. They went from occasional use of time travel, mirror universe, etc to having entire seasons of multiple shows being about this... and excessive plots about AI as well for good measure!
Incredibly and against all odds, Strange New Worlds is good. Really good. By Star Trek standards (watch the older ones with the rose-colored glasses off...) it's amazing, even. It does carry over some of the baggage from Discovery but handles it surprisingly well, considering what a shit-show that was (though even that's decent compared to the trainwreck that is Picard).
Yeah, agreed, almost all of Strange New Worlds was great -- especially for a first season. I didn't like the fairy tale episode, but even that wasn't as bad as some low-points of otherwise-good Star Trek series (e.g. Lwaxana Troi episodes of TNG, ugh).
Execution failure on that one, I'd say. Decent idea, and a very Star Treky idea at that (like much of the rest of the season), but just didn't work. It's the only episode from S1 I'd skip on a re-watch.
[EDIT] On reflection, I think the easiest paths to a fix would have been to either go campier with it, until near the end (as TNG or TOS probably would have done) or to go with a distinct, somewhat artsier film-sci-fi-drama tone in the storytelling and cinematography. Its tone is too similar to the rest of the season to work for that particular episode. Fine for the rest, but not quite a fit for that story.
[EDIT] On reflection, I think the easiest paths to a fix would have been to either go campier with it, until near the end (as TNG or TOS probably would have done) or to go with a distinct, somewhat artsier film-sci-fi-drama tone in the storytelling and cinematography. Its tone is too similar to the rest of the season to work for that particular episode. Fine for the rest, but not quite a fit for that story.
> no franchise longs survives resort to time travel.
Time travel and multi-verses, at least for me, end up reducing the stakes of the movies and for me make them more cartoonish like Tom and Jerry. No matter what happens, you know Tom and Jerry will be back, good as new.
Time travel and multi-verses, at least for me, end up reducing the stakes of the movies and for me make them more cartoonish like Tom and Jerry. No matter what happens, you know Tom and Jerry will be back, good as new.
Unless that franchise is Doctor Who
Time travel in Doctor Who is like time travel in Time Bandits. It's an extension of space travel, not an opportunity to benefit from closed timelike curves.
That's what was so refreshing about Top Gun Maverick. It was mostly practical effects instead of CGI overload.
Fury Road, too.
As a viewer I'm getting sick of CG action. It's striking how we've gone from action scenes that are improbable, to action scenes that are completely impossible, in terms of the perfection with which humans execute their parts in them, not in terms of stuff like Sci-fi elements. You watch older car chase scenes in something like Bullitt and they're over the top, but not impossible, because despite using movie magic to string together separate shots into one long sequence a real human did actually have to do most of the driving, in a real car and using a finite amount of film—but are at like 1% the insanity and intensity of a car chase scene in a Marvel movie or Fast & the Furious or something.
There are little grounding imperfections and limitations in older action movies that CG and super-cheap digital shooting & editing have destroyed. I often check out for the interminable action scenes in Marvel films because they're just boring, for reasons both narrative and technical, which is the exact opposite of what an action scene ought to be.
As a viewer I'm getting sick of CG action. It's striking how we've gone from action scenes that are improbable, to action scenes that are completely impossible, in terms of the perfection with which humans execute their parts in them, not in terms of stuff like Sci-fi elements. You watch older car chase scenes in something like Bullitt and they're over the top, but not impossible, because despite using movie magic to string together separate shots into one long sequence a real human did actually have to do most of the driving, in a real car and using a finite amount of film—but are at like 1% the insanity and intensity of a car chase scene in a Marvel movie or Fast & the Furious or something.
There are little grounding imperfections and limitations in older action movies that CG and super-cheap digital shooting & editing have destroyed. I often check out for the interminable action scenes in Marvel films because they're just boring, for reasons both narrative and technical, which is the exact opposite of what an action scene ought to be.
No adult should be watching super hero shows. Also this discussion belongs on reddit.
A lot of adults watch them with their children, I don't see anything wrong with that.
I am confused why this is on HN though. Pretty sure it doesn't meet the 'What to Submit' guidelines.
I am confused why this is on HN though. Pretty sure it doesn't meet the 'What to Submit' guidelines.
So you're an authority on adults and proper things to watch? Link me to the codex, must read it.
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