Tell HN: Amazon shopping is racing to the bottom of quality
171 comments
As a consumer, I am well aware of this problem. I use Fakespot Fake Amazon Review browser extension to help weed out junk reviews and find quality products. (It seems almost all of them are 4.5 stars these days)
Another strategy to counter bad-quality products is to buy items directly from the brand's website. i.e. buy socks from hanes.com instead of amazon.
Another problem I see with the shopping experience is that I would sometimes spend 10 or 20 minutes looking for just the right product (which is absurd when you think about just how powerful modern filtering and search algorithms can be.) And then it dawned on me. Amazon is making money off of those 10 or 20 minutes of "engagement" because it gives them time to show a bunch of paid ads as I search.
To counter that problem, I always filter my results with "Prime Only" and Filter: Show lowest price to highest. I use Prime Only as a proxy-variable to filter out unpopular items (they are probably unpopular for a reason) It's amazing how much money you can save doing this. Usually you can avoid paying double what the default results are.
Another strategy to counter bad-quality products is to buy items directly from the brand's website. i.e. buy socks from hanes.com instead of amazon.
Another problem I see with the shopping experience is that I would sometimes spend 10 or 20 minutes looking for just the right product (which is absurd when you think about just how powerful modern filtering and search algorithms can be.) And then it dawned on me. Amazon is making money off of those 10 or 20 minutes of "engagement" because it gives them time to show a bunch of paid ads as I search.
To counter that problem, I always filter my results with "Prime Only" and Filter: Show lowest price to highest. I use Prime Only as a proxy-variable to filter out unpopular items (they are probably unpopular for a reason) It's amazing how much money you can save doing this. Usually you can avoid paying double what the default results are.
> Another problem I see with the shopping experience is that I would sometimes spend 10 or 20 minutes looking for just the right product (which is absurd when you think about just how powerful modern filtering and search algorithms can be.) And then it dawned on me. Amazon is making money off of those 10 or 20 minutes of "engagement" because it gives them time to show a bunch of paid ads as I search.
that's a galaxy brain moment. never even thought of that, despite taking efforts to be conscious of how companies are monetizing my interactions with their products. now it makes more sense why one of the biggest companies in the world has had such a terrible website for so long
that's a galaxy brain moment. never even thought of that, despite taking efforts to be conscious of how companies are monetizing my interactions with their products. now it makes more sense why one of the biggest companies in the world has had such a terrible website for so long
I would just like a manual filter. If I search for "rechargeable AA batteries" I get dozens of entries. It would be so much easier if I could manually click off the ones I know are not what I want. Like the multitude of AAA rechargeable batteries that always come up when I search for AA rechargeable batteries. No, I can't remove them. I'm forced to scroll through them again and again while evaluating the other options, continuously multiplying my opportunity to make a mistake and buy the wrong item.
By the way, if you do buy AAA batteries by accident, because you forgot half the entries are going to be for AAA even when you explicitly searched for AA, they won't take the AAA rechargeable batteries back. In fact they'd rather give you a refund and have you fling those brand-new unopened AAA rechargeable batteries into a landfill.
It's an increasingly hostile user experience, much like buying a used car used to be.
By the way, if you do buy AAA batteries by accident, because you forgot half the entries are going to be for AAA even when you explicitly searched for AA, they won't take the AAA rechargeable batteries back. In fact they'd rather give you a refund and have you fling those brand-new unopened AAA rechargeable batteries into a landfill.
It's an increasingly hostile user experience, much like buying a used car used to be.
I often put half a dozen competing products in my shopping cart, with no intent to buy more than one of them, just to be able to compare them nicely. First round is elimination by some red flags, next is a feature-for-feature spec comparison that usually leaves just one winner.
Congratulations, you just taught Amazon ad engine to show you the ones you “almost bought” for the next two years, in hopes you’ll finally crack and pull the trigger on what you actually did not want.
I'm going to navigate to those pages, scroll back and forth, click to expand reviews -- they would know anyway.
If that's your issue, you practically can't buy things from Amazon.
If that's your issue, you practically can't buy things from Amazon.
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I've seen people complain on reddit about Fakespot not being good anymore.
ReviewMeta is an alternative and supposedly "better": https://reviewmeta.com/
I have little experience with either, I'd probably try both at the same time.
ReviewMeta is an alternative and supposedly "better": https://reviewmeta.com/
I have little experience with either, I'd probably try both at the same time.
I'm interested in trying ReviewMeta.
In the past I used Fakespot quite a bit, but I started seeing cases where it wouldn't flag products with obviously fake reviews, and it would flag perfectly good products. For example, try it with any five-star LEGO set and it will give it a D rating and "real" rating of 1.5 stars. Without reliable results I had no reason to trust Fakespot any more than Amazon itself.
At a quick glance ReviewMeta seems to give a much more accurate rating to the same LEGO set.
In the past I used Fakespot quite a bit, but I started seeing cases where it wouldn't flag products with obviously fake reviews, and it would flag perfectly good products. For example, try it with any five-star LEGO set and it will give it a D rating and "real" rating of 1.5 stars. Without reliable results I had no reason to trust Fakespot any more than Amazon itself.
At a quick glance ReviewMeta seems to give a much more accurate rating to the same LEGO set.
Just please keep in mind that the person responsible (may have?) left last year: https://reviewmeta.com/blog/successor-to-reviewmeta/
I don't use any third party plugin. My approach for spotting fake reviews is simple. Anything that has positive reviews that span over a short period of time is suspect. I only buy things that have good reviews that span over a few years. I think most new products on Amazon are sellers relisting products so that they can start from scratch with a bunch of 5 star reviews. Amazon could easily automate this and show the info to users but I guess they don't have an incentive. Big mistake if you ask me. I guess that l's the problem with big tech. You cannot push an idea that shows to reduce revenue in the short term. Long term impact is something that is much harder to measure.
This has worked well for me:
1. Sort reviews by recent; average MUCH lower than overall? Avoid.
2. Use Lustre.ai to suggest alternatives (site or browser plugin).
3. Read 1- and 2-star reviews; many re: misleading features/broken functions? Avoid.
4. Check most helpful negative review.
5. Search reviews and questions for what you've learned in steps 3 and 4.
6. Ignore short to medium reviews explaining nothing and using glowing superlatives.
1. Sort reviews by recent; average MUCH lower than overall? Avoid.
2. Use Lustre.ai to suggest alternatives (site or browser plugin).
3. Read 1- and 2-star reviews; many re: misleading features/broken functions? Avoid.
4. Check most helpful negative review.
5. Search reviews and questions for what you've learned in steps 3 and 4.
6. Ignore short to medium reviews explaining nothing and using glowing superlatives.
I thought about it, and realized what I do is a bit more involved:
1. Find lower-cost options that have a lot of reviews.
2. Sort reviews by recent; average MUCH lower than overall? Avoid. Ignore short to medium reviews explaining nothing and using glowing superlatives.
3. Use Lustre.ai to suggest alternatives (site or browser plugin), and use the steps below to know what issues MOST of these kind of products have.
4. Check much more expensive versions of the product for desirable features / problems solved, e.g. Bluetooth earbuds with a physical or app-based "re-pairing" function.
5. Read 1- and 2-star reviews; many re: misleading features/broken functions? Avoid, but note what kinds of problems are common.
6. Check most helpful negative review when available
7. Search reviews and questions for the issues you uncovered in steps 3 and 4. Sometimes MOST products have similar issues regardless of price—there may not be ANY product worth buying, e.g. home blood pressure monitors.
1. Find lower-cost options that have a lot of reviews.
2. Sort reviews by recent; average MUCH lower than overall? Avoid. Ignore short to medium reviews explaining nothing and using glowing superlatives.
3. Use Lustre.ai to suggest alternatives (site or browser plugin), and use the steps below to know what issues MOST of these kind of products have.
4. Check much more expensive versions of the product for desirable features / problems solved, e.g. Bluetooth earbuds with a physical or app-based "re-pairing" function.
5. Read 1- and 2-star reviews; many re: misleading features/broken functions? Avoid, but note what kinds of problems are common.
6. Check most helpful negative review when available
7. Search reviews and questions for the issues you uncovered in steps 3 and 4. Sometimes MOST products have similar issues regardless of price—there may not be ANY product worth buying, e.g. home blood pressure monitors.
I've never heard of Lustre.ai, I'm going to try it out, thanks for the tip.
Besides #2, I pretty much do the rest of these steps already and it has been helpful.
Besides #2, I pretty much do the rest of these steps already and it has been helpful.
I also use "Prime Only" to filter out items shipping from China. If I'm okay waiting a month, I'll buy it from AliExpress for less.
That doesn’t help much because 3rd parties use Amazon FBA all the time. It’s an even worse problem due to inventory commingling ie even if you buy from Amazon as a seller, there’s no guarantee that the item shipped to you is actually Amazon’s inventory unless you look at all the sellers for the item and verify that there are no other 3rd party sellers using FBA aka Prime
I have noticed certain electronics are much cheaper on AliExpress, but you do have explicit shipping costs vs that being rolled up in prime membership costs.
Is this still a better experience than seeking out reputable brand names that have their own online shop?
I get my recommendations from user forums and YT channels I trust, and then go straight to the manufacturer.
I get my recommendations from user forums and YT channels I trust, and then go straight to the manufacturer.
I have one experience with Corning (Corelle) - wanted simple white square bowls straight from the manufacturer to replace some that broke.
The order was more expensive (by 15%), shipping took a week (as opposed to 2 days) and one of the bowls was "warped" - still functional but definitely a factory reject.
I did not want to bother complaining or returning but honestly, will never buy from them direct again.
And I hate Amazon. I try to use local retailers now, sometimes with online+curbside.
The order was more expensive (by 15%), shipping took a week (as opposed to 2 days) and one of the bowls was "warped" - still functional but definitely a factory reject.
I did not want to bother complaining or returning but honestly, will never buy from them direct again.
And I hate Amazon. I try to use local retailers now, sometimes with online+curbside.
Usually the manufacturers websites have the highest prices
Amazon’s seller policy demands that be the case. You can have your listings removed for policy violation if you offer a price lower than amazon including sales events and discounts. The product manufacturer can have priority control on the amazon listing so there is incentive for the manufacturer to be on amazon if only for that control. I see some sellers offer discounts in their website greater than amazon sometimes but they are vulnerable to expulsion if they are reported.
I am surprised the FTC has not raised issue with this policy.
Anecdotally, that's not my experience. In fact, I often find sales on old warehouse stock I don't find elsewhere. Shipping is usually a sticking point, though.
It's a more expensive AliExpress and has been that way for several years now, ever since the drop-shipping trend started.
Amazon is increasingly delegating its retail business to those sellers now, and making money by selling ads for premium positioning on search results, and of course taking a cut of each sale.
They treat retail like its an embarrassing legacy offering, something that they'd rather not still be doing. It's clear that they have shifted their focus to things like AWS, Prime, Ring.com and the like.
Amazon is increasingly delegating its retail business to those sellers now, and making money by selling ads for premium positioning on search results, and of course taking a cut of each sale.
They treat retail like its an embarrassing legacy offering, something that they'd rather not still be doing. It's clear that they have shifted their focus to things like AWS, Prime, Ring.com and the like.
> they treat retail like its an embarrassing legacy offering
I agree, which is such a shame because their retail brings valuable customer data they'll later monetize with ads and other things.
I agree, which is such a shame because their retail brings valuable customer data they'll later monetize with ads and other things.
Their advertising generates almost half as much revenue as their Amazon Web Services division that accounts for a majority of their market cap. They’re third after Google and Facebook, absolutely massive.
Amazon doesn't come close to occupying "the bottom" so far as shopping experiences are concerned. To see that it's still doing relatively well, just try this: shop for five items on Amazon, and then shop for the same five items on Walmart. The Amazon experience remains much better—in many cases, it's superior. Listings are more relevant and better sorted on Amazon. At least, this is my consistent experience. I want Walmart to be a good competitor…but at the moment, I find that it's still not close.
Simple search strategies on Amazon help, too: to avoid counterfeit products, search for products that are sold by (and not just shipped by) Amazon itself. Don't attend to one- or five-star reviews; instead, read the two- and three-star reviews (if any at all) and consider the percentage of all verified reviews that give 1-3 stars. Of course, none of this is foolproof; you may still end up with a low-quality product. But I find that these strategies help a lot. I get >100 shipments from Amazon per year, and I have almost no problem with low-quality or counterfeit goods.
Simple search strategies on Amazon help, too: to avoid counterfeit products, search for products that are sold by (and not just shipped by) Amazon itself. Don't attend to one- or five-star reviews; instead, read the two- and three-star reviews (if any at all) and consider the percentage of all verified reviews that give 1-3 stars. Of course, none of this is foolproof; you may still end up with a low-quality product. But I find that these strategies help a lot. I get >100 shipments from Amazon per year, and I have almost no problem with low-quality or counterfeit goods.
Walmart feels better to me as long as I filter it to only items sold by walmart. This used to work on amazon too but now it's possible to sell anything as "fulfilled by amazon" or whatever. For some items, I'm finding myself just heading down to a physical big box store or grocery store.
You can still select "Amazon.com" or "Amazon Export" as the seller.
If they still comingle inventory, you dont know which seller is actually supplying the product you receive. This has been problematic in the past.
Yeah I've seen a lot of suspect merchandise sold by amazon too. Meaning just poor quality stuff with incredibly high star ratings. Wal mart they tend to go through major distributors. For now anyway.
yeah that's true, and they do commingle, and it's a big problem.
but it does at least let you filter out all the randomly-generated "OODIXY" random generated chinese crap, at least you'll be looking at real items from real brands for the most part.
Although even then, there are some random chinese brands that are sold+shipped by Amazon...
but it does at least let you filter out all the randomly-generated "OODIXY" random generated chinese crap, at least you'll be looking at real items from real brands for the most part.
Although even then, there are some random chinese brands that are sold+shipped by Amazon...
Walmart-only items does okay.
I recently bought a new personal hygiene item. Many reviews on Amazon indicated that the item had been used, in two cases, with photos of pubic hair. I noped my way ought, and paid a few bucks more for the same item from Walmart.
I'm mostly switching to Walmart, Instacart, and Aliexpress.
I'm not sure what's wrong at Amazon, but something's very, very wrong.
I recently bought a new personal hygiene item. Many reviews on Amazon indicated that the item had been used, in two cases, with photos of pubic hair. I noped my way ought, and paid a few bucks more for the same item from Walmart.
I'm mostly switching to Walmart, Instacart, and Aliexpress.
I'm not sure what's wrong at Amazon, but something's very, very wrong.
> Amazon doesn't come close to occupying "the bottom" so far as shopping experiences are concerned
Amazon exists well beyond the realm of Walmart.
Even when I lived for several decades in the US, Walmart was place you only went when there were literally no other options. Aside from the practical matters, there are endless memes which illustrate why only gun-toting brain-discarding trump-loving people go there. It's a shitshow. It makes you question reality at a level which is both intensely disturbing and also possibly enlightening (assuming "reality" is a simulation that we should wake up from and break out of).
Amazon exists well beyond the realm of Walmart.
Even when I lived for several decades in the US, Walmart was place you only went when there were literally no other options. Aside from the practical matters, there are endless memes which illustrate why only gun-toting brain-discarding trump-loving people go there. It's a shitshow. It makes you question reality at a level which is both intensely disturbing and also possibly enlightening (assuming "reality" is a simulation that we should wake up from and break out of).
I like shopping at Walmart. Helps put the problems in my life in perspective.
I've found recently that walking into the local Walmart, Costco, or grocery store is a better experience than shopping on Amazon, and I increasingly try to do it instead.
Need a spatula? You could look on Amazon and hope you get something relatively sturdy and that isn't filled with chemicals harmful for cooking/eating. Or, you could walk into a local grocery store or Walmart where they probably have 2 or 3 to choose from, they've already researched and selected the best items to stock, and you can feel and see the item before you buy it. I like to think that if enough people realize Amazon is selling garbage and start doing this more, Amazon will need to respond to consumer demand (or will fail).
Need a spatula? You could look on Amazon and hope you get something relatively sturdy and that isn't filled with chemicals harmful for cooking/eating. Or, you could walk into a local grocery store or Walmart where they probably have 2 or 3 to choose from, they've already researched and selected the best items to stock, and you can feel and see the item before you buy it. I like to think that if enough people realize Amazon is selling garbage and start doing this more, Amazon will need to respond to consumer demand (or will fail).
I would tend to agree that in person is better/safer, but
> they've already researched and selected the best items to stock
I'm not convinced at all that the store buyers research and choose with materials consideration (such as BPA and other things we wish to avoid in our food products). Still, it has a better chance than from Amazon. In fact, if the Amazon listing says "BPA free", can you trust it? Is there any way to believe that it is verified? (almost certainly not)
> they've already researched and selected the best items to stock
I'm not convinced at all that the store buyers research and choose with materials consideration (such as BPA and other things we wish to avoid in our food products). Still, it has a better chance than from Amazon. In fact, if the Amazon listing says "BPA free", can you trust it? Is there any way to believe that it is verified? (almost certainly not)
Costco fits this model, I think. You might only have one selection for something but you know it’s a quality product and is usually a good deal.
I try to buy from retail stores when possible now, but it's getting so hard.
I needed a new mouse for my gaming PC recently. I live in Brooklyn and the nearest Best Buy to me closes at 7pm. I tried to get one at Target but it was $35 online and $65 in-store (and $32 on Amazon). They said I couldn't price match against their own website, but I could buy it online and choose in-store pickup. But because the store was closing in less than 2 hours, same day pickup was not an option. Asked if I could order pickup for tomorrow and just give it to me right now, nope, system won't allow it. Thanked the employee for their help and bought it on Amazon.
Similarly, I want to buy from local music gear stores but they all close at 7pm and most are closed on weekends. I'm not taking a vacation day just to try out a synthesizer. Sweetwater isn't local but at least they're not Amazon and they're reliable.
I needed a new mouse for my gaming PC recently. I live in Brooklyn and the nearest Best Buy to me closes at 7pm. I tried to get one at Target but it was $35 online and $65 in-store (and $32 on Amazon). They said I couldn't price match against their own website, but I could buy it online and choose in-store pickup. But because the store was closing in less than 2 hours, same day pickup was not an option. Asked if I could order pickup for tomorrow and just give it to me right now, nope, system won't allow it. Thanked the employee for their help and bought it on Amazon.
Similarly, I want to buy from local music gear stores but they all close at 7pm and most are closed on weekends. I'm not taking a vacation day just to try out a synthesizer. Sweetwater isn't local but at least they're not Amazon and they're reliable.
Problem is, you still get shit quality from Walmart. They optimize for lower cost items. Everything from the spatula to clothing I'd have to rebuy from Walmart, in 3-6 months anyway. No thanks. I want quality items, and I want a store I can trust to get that at. It isn't Walmart, and it's no longer Amazon.
TL;DR: Even if you're buying "the same thing" from Walmart, it's likely a lower quality version. Many manufactures make lower-quality Walmart-specific SKUs.
See: https://www.fastcompany.com/54763/man-who-said-no-wal-mart
See: https://www.fastcompany.com/54763/man-who-said-no-wal-mart
That is true also. I would never buy a TV from Walmart. That said, there have been some rare moments where tech reviewers have looking into Walmart budget computers and found quite decent fundamentals. Still, chances are it's a miss.
> I see no solution to this
Small (online) shops focusing on their products, with a set of blogposts describing the products they stock that doubles as reviews.
https://www.jetpens.com/blog/Guides/ct/9
It can only scale as far as the jetpens owner's ability to write blogposts on pens / stationary. But it turns out that they're pretty good at writing about stationary.
Small (online) shops focusing on their products, with a set of blogposts describing the products they stock that doubles as reviews.
https://www.jetpens.com/blog/Guides/ct/9
It can only scale as far as the jetpens owner's ability to write blogposts on pens / stationary. But it turns out that they're pretty good at writing about stationary.
Walmart learned that if people (in general) had a choice between cheap and good they would pick cheap. It made them billions.
Amazon is just following that playbook, but it is even worse. At Walmart manufacturers at least had to vie for physical shelf space in Walmart so there was a floor on how bad things could get. If the product caused damage you could go after Walmart or an actual manufacturer. Amazon has completely turned that system on its head. You can hardly contact anyone for issues (although Amazon does now have a $1000 damage claim guarantee and an okay return policy for many items) and the manufacturers are just fronts. I still shop at Amazon for certain small items or very niche items, but for big ticket items I usually just go to a physical store.
Best Buy has been rather good these last few years with price matching, store pickup (in-car or in-store), and fast shipping.
Amazon is just following that playbook, but it is even worse. At Walmart manufacturers at least had to vie for physical shelf space in Walmart so there was a floor on how bad things could get. If the product caused damage you could go after Walmart or an actual manufacturer. Amazon has completely turned that system on its head. You can hardly contact anyone for issues (although Amazon does now have a $1000 damage claim guarantee and an okay return policy for many items) and the manufacturers are just fronts. I still shop at Amazon for certain small items or very niche items, but for big ticket items I usually just go to a physical store.
Best Buy has been rather good these last few years with price matching, store pickup (in-car or in-store), and fast shipping.
Here's the problem: People are still shopping on Amazon em masse so this race to the bottom will continue to happen. Very few people are able to care that the spatula set or kid sunglasses or phone case or... etc etc etc is knockoff quality because it's available fast and cheap.
I think (hope) this changes, but as price sensitively likely increases over the coming couple of years for many consumers, they're going to be able to look past the transgressions of environmental impact or durability because, hey, if it breaks, they'll just order another $3 widget to replace it.
There is definitely a market for high end, high quality widgets, but price for most will be a roadblock.
I think (hope) this changes, but as price sensitively likely increases over the coming couple of years for many consumers, they're going to be able to look past the transgressions of environmental impact or durability because, hey, if it breaks, they'll just order another $3 widget to replace it.
There is definitely a market for high end, high quality widgets, but price for most will be a roadblock.
Amazon has so many scam products now I do my best to avoid them. Target and Walmart are two very good alternatives and since I live in an urban area, their delivery is comparable to Amazon's delivery. Any music gear I buy I go to Sweetwater or specialized retailers. To me it seems like Amazon is becoming a worse and worse shopping experience with each passing day.
I will vouch for Sweetwater anywhere it's mentioned because I've never had such a good customer experience as I have through Sweetwater. I personally enjoy Target and Best Buy a lot. Shopping at Target is oddly enjoyable for me and using their online store has never given me issues. I only really buy from Best Buy online (for both in-store pickup and delivery) and that experience has been good as well.
Sweetwater's customer experience is so good that it freaks me out. You have an assigned "sales engineer" who calls after the first order you make. So I've talked to them.
At one point I ordered a couple of different guitar hangers to try them out. I got a call asking if I meant to order 1 guitar hanger and 1 ukulele hanger. The sales engineer looked at the order, my history, and apparently had notes from one of our conversations and thought it might have been a mistake. It was and we corrected it before it shipped.
At one point I ordered a couple of different guitar hangers to try them out. I got a call asking if I meant to order 1 guitar hanger and 1 ukulele hanger. The sales engineer looked at the order, my history, and apparently had notes from one of our conversations and thought it might have been a mistake. It was and we corrected it before it shipped.
Sweetwater is the model for online sales. Like you say, you have an assigned "sales engineer" - and you can change who's assigned to you, BTW. My first sales engineer, a good guy, we just weren't into the same kind of guitar playing. He referred me to another sales engineer that could better help me for what I'm into. When I've had questions about anything they're quick to hop on the phone and talk it through, figure out what's the best gear for you. It's an unreal experience. Whenever I need to buy any music gear I go to Sweetwater first. They don't carry everything, but even then I've called an asked about an alternative and they'll tell you the pros/cons of what they carry and what you're actually looking for. They'll even tell you to buy it somewhere else if they believe it's better and they don't carry it! It's 2022 - I'm used to not being able to talk to a human much less get this kind of customer service. It's truly awesome!
It was a little weird/annoying to be contacted, my assumption was they're trying to upsell me on something.
But nope, they're just great support. Like you said it's always the same person so maybe I got lucky with Jimmy as my rep, but he's been super helpful. Had a similar situation to yours where I bough 1 synth 2 road-cases. He called me asking if it was a mistake and it was.
They also try to assign you to someone with similar interests. So I doubt Jimmy could help much if I wanted to get into classical woodwinds, but he knows his stuff about synths and setting then up in a studio.
But nope, they're just great support. Like you said it's always the same person so maybe I got lucky with Jimmy as my rep, but he's been super helpful. Had a similar situation to yours where I bough 1 synth 2 road-cases. He called me asking if it was a mistake and it was.
They also try to assign you to someone with similar interests. So I doubt Jimmy could help much if I wanted to get into classical woodwinds, but he knows his stuff about synths and setting then up in a studio.
>> You have an assigned "sales engineer" who calls after the first order you make
They stop calling you if you don't order anything from them for 10 years or so.
They stop calling you if you don't order anything from them for 10 years or so.
True story.
I bought a pair of studio monitors from Amazon. I received one. Returned it. It took months to get a refund. Amazon claimed I needed to return the other monitor :/ I finally convinced them by pointing out that the weight of what they shipped me could in no way be two monitors. You would think their system would have such basic logic to catch this at shipping, it knows the product weight and it knows the weight of my package.
I had a gap of five years between using Amazon or any tech. The difference between Amazon's prior usability and stepping into it five years later was jarring. Like I seriously thought I was just no longer capable of using websites. Turns out, nope, Amazon's shopping site is now a zombie be exploited for some other purpose that is different from why I use it.
I had a gap of five years between using Amazon or any tech. The difference between Amazon's prior usability and stepping into it five years later was jarring. Like I seriously thought I was just no longer capable of using websites. Turns out, nope, Amazon's shopping site is now a zombie be exploited for some other purpose that is different from why I use it.
Whoever is in charge of quality as my Target sucks though. I expect a kind of meh quality at Target but the counterfeit crap stuff at Amazon is at least better than the stuff at Target.
The worse is the patio deck chairs that won't actually fit together at Target. Like the welding/metal construction is just wrong.
The worse is the patio deck chairs that won't actually fit together at Target. Like the welding/metal construction is just wrong.
I bet that same patio set is listed on Amazon (multiple times under different names and with different photos), and it's the same mfg.
This is kind of my point. It seems that we now have millions of psuedo-offerings which ultimately boil down to a fraction of actual sources, most of extreme low quality.
If we don't do something about this soon, we better be practicing DIY constructions from the many good videos on youtube. Before you know it, the only tool which will actually suffice is the tool you make yourself.
This is kind of my point. It seems that we now have millions of psuedo-offerings which ultimately boil down to a fraction of actual sources, most of extreme low quality.
If we don't do something about this soon, we better be practicing DIY constructions from the many good videos on youtube. Before you know it, the only tool which will actually suffice is the tool you make yourself.
These days I shop Amazon because they have a robust return policy. If that ever stops I'm gone.
>These days I shop Amazon because they have a robust return policy.
You might think that... until they ship you the wrong item, you ship it back, they then tell you they never received the item (because they can't match up the right order with the wrong item) and you get duped. I was a customer since the late 90s - but not any longer. Canceled Prime, done. I also refuse to shop at Walmart for a whole lot of reasons, including their labor practices (one more reason to also not shop at Amazon).
You might think that... until they ship you the wrong item, you ship it back, they then tell you they never received the item (because they can't match up the right order with the wrong item) and you get duped. I was a customer since the late 90s - but not any longer. Canceled Prime, done. I also refuse to shop at Walmart for a whole lot of reasons, including their labor practices (one more reason to also not shop at Amazon).
On a flip note, my experience couldn't have been more different, and amazon refunded me even in cases when it was clearly not their fault.
I once bought a roomba on Amazon a year or so ago, because they had a solid discount, and it was delivered to my apt building. The box was left against the wall across from the mail lockers and right in the view of a security camera. I already had 3 boxes in my hands that I just pulled from the locker on my way to the apt, and saw the sealed box with the roomba. It was just an amazon carbdoard box with the actual roomba box inside, no markings saying what item it was (i pushed it slightly to gauge the weight, and it was indeed roomba, pretty heavy). I thought "hm, that's fine, i will just pick it up in the morning on my way to work". Done that plenty of times before, and the area is behind a secure keyfob entry+camera.
I go to pick it up next morning, the amazon cardboard box is unsealed, gaping open, and is empty. Asked the leasing office to check the camera records, they told me "no can do without a police report, and we will show it to them, not you". Given the current police situation in Seattle, it was a dead route. They were willing to take the report, but said that realistically they wont get to looking into it anytime soon if ever, too much backlog. Which sorta checks out, given how they don't even look into burglaries or car break-ins half the time.
Being mentally prepared to just eat the losses at that point, I contacted amazon and honestly explained the entire situation. The only thing I requested from them is to not use that shipping carrier for my deliveries anymore, because they tend to be lazy and not put deliveries actually inside the lockers (like they are supposed to). While they agreed it wasn't their fault, they ended up offering me a choice between a refund or sending me another roomba at no extra charge with another shipping carrier. I was neither asking for this nor expecting that (even if i were to ask).
I once bought a roomba on Amazon a year or so ago, because they had a solid discount, and it was delivered to my apt building. The box was left against the wall across from the mail lockers and right in the view of a security camera. I already had 3 boxes in my hands that I just pulled from the locker on my way to the apt, and saw the sealed box with the roomba. It was just an amazon carbdoard box with the actual roomba box inside, no markings saying what item it was (i pushed it slightly to gauge the weight, and it was indeed roomba, pretty heavy). I thought "hm, that's fine, i will just pick it up in the morning on my way to work". Done that plenty of times before, and the area is behind a secure keyfob entry+camera.
I go to pick it up next morning, the amazon cardboard box is unsealed, gaping open, and is empty. Asked the leasing office to check the camera records, they told me "no can do without a police report, and we will show it to them, not you". Given the current police situation in Seattle, it was a dead route. They were willing to take the report, but said that realistically they wont get to looking into it anytime soon if ever, too much backlog. Which sorta checks out, given how they don't even look into burglaries or car break-ins half the time.
Being mentally prepared to just eat the losses at that point, I contacted amazon and honestly explained the entire situation. The only thing I requested from them is to not use that shipping carrier for my deliveries anymore, because they tend to be lazy and not put deliveries actually inside the lockers (like they are supposed to). While they agreed it wasn't their fault, they ended up offering me a choice between a refund or sending me another roomba at no extra charge with another shipping carrier. I was neither asking for this nor expecting that (even if i were to ask).
It depends on the item. Recently I purchased a drill bit from Amazon. By the time I realized I would not need it for my project, the return window had passed. If I had just purchased it from a big box store, I still could have returned it.
Return it to REI.
I lost 2.5K USD because of a botched return, so YMV…
Ouch. Details?
I bought a Amazon warehouse Titan V, got an empty box. Amazon asked me to return the empty box after I called their customer support, so I did.
Then they denied the return saying I only returned the accessories… They kept claiming they would look into it and refund me each time I called, but then would reply 48 hours later saying they never received my return. I opened a chargeback case, and they actually lied to my credit card company that I had never returned anything at all and that my return was rejected. When I called amazon, they then told me they had processed my return and that I should have been refunded. I also filed a complaint with the AG my state, and they lied to them as well claiming no return was ever requested (this was perjury).
Sometime when I have more energy I’ll find a lawyer.
Sometime when I have more energy I’ll find a lawyer.
Not parent, but I've had issues with returns from accidental 3rd party seller orders. I can easily imagine a niche, high priced item coming from a 3rd party seller and the whole return going sideways.
I suspect that Amazon Retail's days may be numbered. They know it, and don't care. They make most of their money from AWS/Cloud stuff (apparently, a lot of money). I suspect that Retail is becoming a boat anchor. They may spin off their Logistics into a separate business unit; as it's doing fairly well.
They are more aware than anyone, about how bad things are. They have meters on everything. Amazon is famous for being a data-driven corporation.
This means that someone, somewhere, has calculated the destruction of their brand, and has decided that the end justifies the means.
They are more aware than anyone, about how bad things are. They have meters on everything. Amazon is famous for being a data-driven corporation.
This means that someone, somewhere, has calculated the destruction of their brand, and has decided that the end justifies the means.
To provide another viewpoint: I have used Amazon for maybe 10 years. I have thousands of orders with them. I try to buy everything I can from them since it's convenient. I buy things from paper towels to computer components to tools to clothes.
I've never received a counterfeit item as far as I know. Any time I buy from a strange company I have 30 days to return the item, and returning is incredibly easy with so many Amazon package drop-off points that now exist -- I don't even have to re-package the item.
Companies using familiar, easy-to-use platforms like Stripe and Shopify greatly increases my chance of buying from them. I generally prefer Amazon though because they have consistent customer service, returns are super easy (click a button, take the item to an Amazon Fresh store), and shipping is free with Prime.
I'd love for Amazon to have some serious competition, but I don't think there's anything quite as good as it.
I've never received a counterfeit item as far as I know. Any time I buy from a strange company I have 30 days to return the item, and returning is incredibly easy with so many Amazon package drop-off points that now exist -- I don't even have to re-package the item.
Companies using familiar, easy-to-use platforms like Stripe and Shopify greatly increases my chance of buying from them. I generally prefer Amazon though because they have consistent customer service, returns are super easy (click a button, take the item to an Amazon Fresh store), and shipping is free with Prime.
I'd love for Amazon to have some serious competition, but I don't think there's anything quite as good as it.
I can guarantee if you shop that much you've 100% had counterfeit items, you just didn't notice it.
Or you're the online shopping equivalent of the 1.5 billion lottery winner the other day.
I've said this before but it bears repeating- one good anecdote vesus decades of openly user hostile and duplicitous practices and counterfeits doesn't wash.
At this point you are part of the problem by supporting them in their bullshit simply for your convenience.
Or you're the online shopping equivalent of the 1.5 billion lottery winner the other day.
I've said this before but it bears repeating- one good anecdote vesus decades of openly user hostile and duplicitous practices and counterfeits doesn't wash.
At this point you are part of the problem by supporting them in their bullshit simply for your convenience.
I buy probably 10 things on amazon a month, none of which I can identify as counterfeit. purchases end up in 3 categories: an item so cheap and generic every version of the product was going to come from the same warehouse in china anyways, amazon basics products, and expensive name brand goods. looking through my past 5 pages of orders, I see an aeropress, old spice deoderant, an ipad magic keyboard, and "genuine hd600 earpad replacement". I guess maybe the latter could be seen as counterfeit and undersirable? there's no perceivable problem in quality with any of these.
i get the feeling that people with this mentality don't even try to help themselves. the refund process at amazon takes at most 5minutes. I've had a couple dozen refunds over the years with 0 questions asked, for items upwards of $500.
maybe such refund policies are geography based, so service is perceived as awful in these locations?
i get the feeling that people with this mentality don't even try to help themselves. the refund process at amazon takes at most 5minutes. I've had a couple dozen refunds over the years with 0 questions asked, for items upwards of $500.
maybe such refund policies are geography based, so service is perceived as awful in these locations?
I have read some photography equipment teardown articles, and the level of counterfeit effort might shock you.
Plenty of electronics get counterfeited. And where some of them are concerned, the consumer will never noticed. Perhaps it's an audio product where the "special sauce" is indistinguishable to the lay consumer. But it can also be the "apple" charger which starts a fire in your house randomly.
> the refund process at amazon takes at most 5minutes
Depends where you are. While the online return experience is very easy, I still have to adequately repackage it and take it by car 20 minutes away to a shipping drop point. It's not even the effort that's significant, it's the mental overhead AND the fact that what I thought I was getting is not what I got, so I have to try it all again (and possibly return it again).
Plenty of electronics get counterfeited. And where some of them are concerned, the consumer will never noticed. Perhaps it's an audio product where the "special sauce" is indistinguishable to the lay consumer. But it can also be the "apple" charger which starts a fire in your house randomly.
> the refund process at amazon takes at most 5minutes
Depends where you are. While the online return experience is very easy, I still have to adequately repackage it and take it by car 20 minutes away to a shipping drop point. It's not even the effort that's significant, it's the mental overhead AND the fact that what I thought I was getting is not what I got, so I have to try it all again (and possibly return it again).
I share OPs experience: lots of shopping, no apparent counterfeits.
Anecdotally, it feels like there's a geographic skew here. My friends in New York report a much worse experience, even on the same products I purchase.
Anecdotally, it feels like there's a geographic skew here. My friends in New York report a much worse experience, even on the same products I purchase.
If I don't notice counterfeit items then why would I care as a consumer?
If you do receive a counterfeit are you not able to figure that out in the 30 day return window?
> At this point you are part of the problem by supporting them in their bullshit simply for your convenience.
Do you yourself really not support any business, restaurant, or government that somehow harms others?
I'd recommend watching a show called The Good Place. It illustrates morality and how we're all culpable to evil in some way.
If you do receive a counterfeit are you not able to figure that out in the 30 day return window?
> At this point you are part of the problem by supporting them in their bullshit simply for your convenience.
Do you yourself really not support any business, restaurant, or government that somehow harms others?
I'd recommend watching a show called The Good Place. It illustrates morality and how we're all culpable to evil in some way.
> If I don't notice counterfeit items then why would I care as a consumer?
Well, superficially it doesn't matter for something like a handbag, assuming the handbag doesn't wear out any sooner than the original.
Maybe the knockoff was made by 10 year old slaves in a factory with no human rights pressures (and oversight). If you knew there was a high probability this was true, would you still have the "don't care" opinion?
But when it comes to electronics or power tools, a failure can mean an accident or a fire. That's serious for you directly.
And finally, if the copycats steal all the business, and the original designer/mfg stops making sales, they stop producing items. What does a copycat sell when there's no longer any original? I hope you like the exact product you have, because the copycat next iteration is going to be the same or maybe have an extra LED on it as a new feature.
Well, superficially it doesn't matter for something like a handbag, assuming the handbag doesn't wear out any sooner than the original.
Maybe the knockoff was made by 10 year old slaves in a factory with no human rights pressures (and oversight). If you knew there was a high probability this was true, would you still have the "don't care" opinion?
But when it comes to electronics or power tools, a failure can mean an accident or a fire. That's serious for you directly.
And finally, if the copycats steal all the business, and the original designer/mfg stops making sales, they stop producing items. What does a copycat sell when there's no longer any original? I hope you like the exact product you have, because the copycat next iteration is going to be the same or maybe have an extra LED on it as a new feature.
> Maybe the knockoff was made by 10 year old slaves in a factory with no human rights pressures (and oversight). If you knew there was a high probability this was true, would you still have the "don't care" opinion?
You might be surprised how many people would answer yes, they don’t care. See fast fashion.
You might be surprised how many people would answer yes, they don’t care. See fast fashion.
> Maybe the knockoff was made by 10 year old slaves in a factory with no human rights pressures (and oversight). If you knew there was a high probability this was true, would you still have the "don't care" opinion?
If there was a high probability that I am supporting slavery, then I would change my mind.
Do you have any evidence to support the claim that there is a high probability of something that I purchase from Amazon was made with slave labor?
Aside from this, what is the solution that you propose? How can you ever participate in the global economy and definitively say that you aren't supporting something 'evil'? Are people suppose to go and inspect the supply chain before buying batteries?
If there was a high probability that I am supporting slavery, then I would change my mind.
Do you have any evidence to support the claim that there is a high probability of something that I purchase from Amazon was made with slave labor?
Aside from this, what is the solution that you propose? How can you ever participate in the global economy and definitively say that you aren't supporting something 'evil'? Are people suppose to go and inspect the supply chain before buying batteries?
> How can you ever participate in the global economy and definitively say that you aren't supporting something 'evil'?
I'm finishing a show called "The Good Place" that is about the afterlife and how people are judged for their actions - it tackles a bunch of really interesting philosophocal topics (like the trolley problem!) and the writing is top notch. Anyway, there are some episodes in Season 3 that dig into whether it's even possible to be 'good' in modern globalized society because of this sort of issue.
I'm finishing a show called "The Good Place" that is about the afterlife and how people are judged for their actions - it tackles a bunch of really interesting philosophocal topics (like the trolley problem!) and the writing is top notch. Anyway, there are some episodes in Season 3 that dig into whether it's even possible to be 'good' in modern globalized society because of this sort of issue.
Hah I mentioned this show a few comments up. It's a great introduction to Philosophy.
Perhaps a product idea is to make a front-end to Amazon that is able to better filter the results, to bring forward slightly higher priced items that are higher quality, and do a better job of filtering out spam than Amazon (something that filters out those six-letter all-capital-letter Chinese company names).
Income would be generated by making all of the links to the actual products Amazon affiliate links, but just make the frontend look exactly like Amazon's search with better results.
Income would be generated by making all of the links to the actual products Amazon affiliate links, but just make the frontend look exactly like Amazon's search with better results.
Not a bad idea. But what if there is actually no good product for a given category in Amazon?
If it were a meta-front-end and could offer possibilities greater than Amazon alone, then that would be great.
And actually, there are enough very similar images that it should be possible to identify identical products across different websites by image alone. Then they could each by grouped by unique product with the website as a list of options of where to buy it.
Then maybe I could find a good soft brush telescopic car wash tool.
If it were a meta-front-end and could offer possibilities greater than Amazon alone, then that would be great.
And actually, there are enough very similar images that it should be possible to identify identical products across different websites by image alone. Then they could each by grouped by unique product with the website as a list of options of where to buy it.
Then maybe I could find a good soft brush telescopic car wash tool.
There is a solution to this. When it’s an option, buy locally: that is the way to be 100% sure about what you are buying. Many local shops, eager to make sales, will let you try before buying. If not, it’s unusual for stores to not have a return policy, though you do have to keep an eye peeled for “all sales final” signs. Buying local puts money into your community and adds to the sales tax base that finances schools and paves roads.
Absolutely. It's just becoming difficult to even find such local options :(.
Their latest financials asically show that without cloud, there would be operational issues. Interresting breakdown analysis of Q2 here (Tom Nash)
https://youtu.be/g2D5YCJNtC0
https://youtu.be/g2D5YCJNtC0
I think Amazon cloud is "too big to fail", in that there would be an unbeliably high global financial cost if it stopped. As such, I think it's even more imperative that the US break Amazon into some pieces.
Let the retail division stand on its own. I think that alone would improve their operation (out of necessity for survival).
Let the retail division stand on its own. I think that alone would improve their operation (out of necessity for survival).
It's interesting. I have 2 years without shopping on amazon. I'm going straight to small businesses. The attention is better and, slowly but surely, pricing and shipping are getting better.
I thought I was doing that, but twice now, I have opted to pay the small business's website directly more than what I would have paid on Amazon, and I end up getting something from Amazon. So at least some have figured out how to price discriminate and pocket the extra money for ordering from the "official" website.
When my son was small I remember him getting some junk toys from a relative and crying "Why don't people in China want kids to have toys?"
I'd say though that there are some vendors in China that are very proud of what they make and who very much want to have satisfied customers. It's not most of them though.
I'd say though that there are some vendors in China that are very proud of what they make and who very much want to have satisfied customers. It's not most of them though.
Generally as you go towards more specialized vendors or higher-end items, the issues fade. I've had a great experience with Soncoz (audio equipment) and their policies/behaviors so far have shown to be excellent. When a relatively minor defect was found in their product, they yanked them all off stores online, paid to have them shipped back from buyers, and fix it all up and sent them back. Very nice work. Many US electronics vendors won't go that far, and just let products with serious faults sit on shelves and make returns a circus ordeal.
I'm not going to blame them directly, because there's likely some thick layer of people in the middle who are deciding at a purely $$$ strategic level how to make and sell stuff. They're commissioning the manufacturers to cut as many corners as possible.
Your Macbook Pro is made in China. Quality is a management decision, not the decision of a country or people.
Indeed: thick layer of people in the middle who are deciding
I have no objection to buying something from China that is decently made and of decent materials (and by workers who are not abused).
I have no objection to buying something from China that is decently made and of decent materials (and by workers who are not abused).
Due to safety and quality issues, anyone who gives us made in china toys goes on not a real friend list. And we throw away those toys.
Whoa, do these people know about and understand your stance here? If someone goes to the trouble to get you a toy at all, I would hope you'd give them the benefit of the doubt before scratching them off the friend list.
I can't speak for the poster, but back in my young kids in suburbia life, it was common to get invited to kid parties for kids are hardly knew. And most parents wouldn't be bothered with getting a "real" gift. They would go buy whatever was < $10 at Walmart.
And the people hosting the parties would also go to Walmart and buy the 99cent "goodie" bags to hand out to the guest kids. Those bags contained cheap plastic spider rings, plastic whistles which were so malformed that they didn't whistle, etc.
Most of what was given and received would go into the garbage after everyone was home. It's an obscene waste of time, money, and resources. But now it feels like that reality is the common general reality, and that's what scares me.
And the people hosting the parties would also go to Walmart and buy the 99cent "goodie" bags to hand out to the guest kids. Those bags contained cheap plastic spider rings, plastic whistles which were so malformed that they didn't whistle, etc.
Most of what was given and received would go into the garbage after everyone was home. It's an obscene waste of time, money, and resources. But now it feels like that reality is the common general reality, and that's what scares me.
This still happens. The toys are from Target and are <$30 in my circles and we usually try to make them legos or something that can be used again and not just thrown away, but there is rarely more thought goes into them than that.
The gift bags are still a part of the song and dance, but I've seen some shift there, too - one party we were invited to, the family gave plants & seeds as the party favor.
The gift bags are still a part of the song and dance, but I've seen some shift there, too - one party we were invited to, the family gave plants & seeds as the party favor.
Small Lego boxes used to be available for $5, have outstanding replay value, and don’t have cadmium or lead unlike many Chinese toys. I used to stock up on them as party favors.
The biggest reason to do this is because of the use of lead and cadmium, too extremely toxic substances that are routinely untested for in the toy supply-chain. Importers and large retailers should be required to test all their toys with an XRF gun.
https://www.bruker.com/en/products-and-solutions/elemental-a...
https://www.bruker.com/en/products-and-solutions/elemental-a...
I'm not doubting the reasoning behind not wanting those category of toys, I'm asking if OP did the polite thing and, you know, told the potential gift givers how they felt about cheap toys before writing them off as "non-friends".
Yes, our friends and relatives know that we health and safety concise. I also share articles about when widespread lead or other chemicals are found in cheap imported toys. It is usually the relatives who like to give cheap gifts.
It seems incredibly rude to give such toys. It is like giving coke when someone doesn’t want their kids to drink it.
And yes on incredible waste as sibling comment said.
It seems incredibly rude to give such toys. It is like giving coke when someone doesn’t want their kids to drink it.
And yes on incredible waste as sibling comment said.
> And we throw away those toys
Exactly. It's a surpreme waste, especially in a time where we should be working to reduce our global environmental impact.
Exactly. It's a surpreme waste, especially in a time where we should be working to reduce our global environmental impact.
Time for brands again? I remember when Amazon first started it was great that you could avoid the big, reputable but expensive branded product and buy some alternative from a smaller company. I guess now we should avoid the unknown brands and stick with an established manufacturer.
> There is one country where most of this garbage comes from ...
... as well as most of the stuff in people's homes, including their cherished iPhones.
... as well as most of the stuff in people's homes, including their cherished iPhones.
Related sketch by Ryan George: https://youtu.be/nQpxAvjD_30
This was fantastic! :) I did laugh, and it's a good characterization. I only wish he had shown the same chair with different colors. The company names were great though.
Have you tried to buy something shipped from and sold by Amazon recently? I have had a couple promos in my account because of screw ups in shipping, so I’ve tried to use them. It’s impossible to find something that is both shipped from and sold by Amazon.
Amazon as a logistics company is also a joke. Their customer service is now bottom of the barrel, which is a real shame because it used to be decent. As a paying Prime customer, my items are late or lost probably 1/3 of the time.
Once a real competitor comes around that can compete on price and some level of good selection without being a horrendous experience, Amazon will be put on notice.
Amazon as a logistics company is also a joke. Their customer service is now bottom of the barrel, which is a real shame because it used to be decent. As a paying Prime customer, my items are late or lost probably 1/3 of the time.
Once a real competitor comes around that can compete on price and some level of good selection without being a horrendous experience, Amazon will be put on notice.
I'm finding that if I'm willing to wait a month, I can get the same crap From AliExpress for half the price. But if you know what to search for, you can find quality goods, VESSEL screwdrivers from Japan for instance.
If you are so inclined, you should make an essay on how you do this and post it to HN. I bet many of us would be interested!
Yep. In the past few months I've bought tools from VESSEL, Wera, Wiha, Tekton, Milwaukee, etc., all from Amazon. No issues with anything there.
I cancelled Prime and lean more on target, costco, and brands own shopify/ecommerce sites. Each of these options has more than sufficient shipping speeds. 1 day shipping was a fun Amazon perk but never something I needed.
> lean more on target, costco, and brands own shopify/ecommerce sites
If only shopify could fix the god damn Chrome issue.
If only shopify could fix the god damn Chrome issue.
This year I've done 4-5 online chats with Amazon's Customer Service trying to resolve a single issue (still unresolved). I've definitely wondered what happened to the old "Customer Obsession" and "World's most customer-centric company" principles that they used to quite legitimately crow about.
In days gone by, they would have said sorry for my trouble, and doled out a gift card, months ago.
In days gone by, they would have said sorry for my trouble, and doled out a gift card, months ago.
Isn't it classic example of "market for lemons" when the market degrades, sometimes into oblivion, because customers know significantly less about products being sold than the sellers do, because Amazon doesn't care to find out relevant information to rely it to customers?
Yes. I always wished to see customer friendly metrics revealed. Years in service. Years since last company sale/ transfer of ownership etc in an acquisitional sense. Time since last one star review. Star rating time profile. Percentage of product returned vs sales. Maybe some other things I can’t even think of.
I'm not sure if the term "classic" can apply anymore.
Aside from some upper level executive at Amazon, I don't think there's anyone who is aware and concerned of the scale of the returns they get (most likely due to the products being one of the cases I mentioned). Amazon reportedly has warehouses full of returns that they find cost effective ways to dispose of. It's not like they go back to the manufacturer.
In the classic times, the goods would go back to the vendor. And the vendor would have to deal with them -- something that costs time and storage space (and maybe disposal cost).
But now the sellers are insulated from it all. To them it is just a loss of profit. As long as the bottom line is positive, it's worth it to them to scale it up as much as is still profitable.
Aside from some upper level executive at Amazon, I don't think there's anyone who is aware and concerned of the scale of the returns they get (most likely due to the products being one of the cases I mentioned). Amazon reportedly has warehouses full of returns that they find cost effective ways to dispose of. It's not like they go back to the manufacturer.
In the classic times, the goods would go back to the vendor. And the vendor would have to deal with them -- something that costs time and storage space (and maybe disposal cost).
But now the sellers are insulated from it all. To them it is just a loss of profit. As long as the bottom line is positive, it's worth it to them to scale it up as much as is still profitable.
I was wondering the other night when shopping for some US made wrenches and when finding all these SK wrenches sold out on Amazon, and going to the manufacturer website directly and seeing a banner about being out of stock due to global supply chain issues I then went to their reseller listings. One of them was https://www.maxwarehouse.com/pages/about-us
And I started to wonder if we’ll see more curated shopping experiences and a resurgence of recognizing the value such a service offers.
And I started to wonder if we’ll see more curated shopping experiences and a resurgence of recognizing the value such a service offers.
As I wrote the Tell post, I was pondering this. I think curated shopping could be a solution, but as evidenced by some of the current popular "curated" sites, they tend also to race to a less-than-optimal level as well.
There are old companies like Consumer Reports which were sort of doing this, but I suspect they have some intentional or unintentional biases.
In the tech world we have sites which maybe started out trying to bring light to the best products, but it seems every site gets gamed or just sells out. Then you can't trust it.
True word of mouth is reliable, but when none of the mouths can get their hands on the actual good product, there's nobody to recommend it. Or maybe it no longer even exists because the manufacturer couldn't compete with the garbage on Amazon.
There are old companies like Consumer Reports which were sort of doing this, but I suspect they have some intentional or unintentional biases.
In the tech world we have sites which maybe started out trying to bring light to the best products, but it seems every site gets gamed or just sells out. Then you can't trust it.
True word of mouth is reliable, but when none of the mouths can get their hands on the actual good product, there's nobody to recommend it. Or maybe it no longer even exists because the manufacturer couldn't compete with the garbage on Amazon.
>There are old companies like Consumer Reports which were sort of doing this, but I suspect they have some intentional or unintentional biases.
Consumer reports was--probably still is--fine in a very mainstream, safe sort of way. Which is probably fine if you're looking for a dishwasher.
In general these sites--CR, Wirecutter, etc.--are as appealing for more specialty products whose users have very strong opinions about what they want/need.
Consumer reports was--probably still is--fine in a very mainstream, safe sort of way. Which is probably fine if you're looking for a dishwasher.
In general these sites--CR, Wirecutter, etc.--are as appealing for more specialty products whose users have very strong opinions about what they want/need.
All good points but what matters to them is positive correlation with increasing short term revenue and showing they are in a phase they are extracting (some) profits from what they got billions from investors through the years.
On top of that, their relationships with gazillions of Chinese suppliers are heavily disrupted by the political situation but that is a subject nobody wants to talk about right now.
The moment when Amazon is going to reap what they are sowing now is not here yet but it is rapidly approaching. It will be marked by a BIG negative earnings surprise (see Netflix for future guidance).
On top of that, their relationships with gazillions of Chinese suppliers are heavily disrupted by the political situation but that is a subject nobody wants to talk about right now.
The moment when Amazon is going to reap what they are sowing now is not here yet but it is rapidly approaching. It will be marked by a BIG negative earnings surprise (see Netflix for future guidance).
I recently got an email from amazon saying they are charging my card again for items which I have already returned to them (via the whole foods store). I even have confirmation email of the said returns. Now the email claims they haven't gotten it (which I don't care about as I was only responsible for dropping them off to whole foods).
I am sure this is a glitch and I can contact them and get this fixed. However as a new dad this takes time away from other stuff and I would rather not have to deal with this. Will be more wary of purchases from now on.
I am sure this is a glitch and I can contact them and get this fixed. However as a new dad this takes time away from other stuff and I would rather not have to deal with this. Will be more wary of purchases from now on.
If Amazon doesn't fulfill your needs, then don't shop there. There are lots of merchants I prefer not to shop at because of one or more dissatisfying reasons.
I bring it up for discussion because if enough people start talking about it, maybe something changes sooner.
edit - and because web search results lean heavily toward the major sellers, and the most major seller is amazon. So even trying to avoid amazon (and other sellers with the same garbage) becomes increasingly difficult.
edit - and because web search results lean heavily toward the major sellers, and the most major seller is amazon. So even trying to avoid amazon (and other sellers with the same garbage) becomes increasingly difficult.
this comment is about as clever as reccomending firewood for heating to a person who lived in a highrise apartment.
The entire marketplace has changed. I see the same shit amazon sell in physical shops now
The entire marketplace has changed. I see the same shit amazon sell in physical shops now
I wouldn't categorize this as "news".
I mean it is years that the situation is as you describe, I don't feel it has worsened (let alone bettered) recently.
I mean it is years that the situation is as you describe, I don't feel it has worsened (let alone bettered) recently.
I think Amazon's shipping got worse in the last two years.
They were making noises about speeding up delivery to a lucky few people in chosen urban areas but in my rural area Prime shipping has slowed down considerably and they seem to make no effort at all to get Prime deliveries to me in two days. It is irksome because sometimes I've decided to buy something at Amazon rather than another store on the assumption I could get it in two days instead of two weeks, so it is an unfair form of anti-competition.
Contrast that to shipping having sped up for most other major retailers (say Best Buy, Walmart, ...) such that I often get things in one day with free or low cost shipping.
My falling out with AMZN started when I saw obviously fraudulent product listings and contacted AMZN only to be told they didn't care unless I had bought the product and been defrauded.
What they don't seem to get is that when they have this attitude it calls into question whether I can trust ANY product listings on AMZN.
They were making noises about speeding up delivery to a lucky few people in chosen urban areas but in my rural area Prime shipping has slowed down considerably and they seem to make no effort at all to get Prime deliveries to me in two days. It is irksome because sometimes I've decided to buy something at Amazon rather than another store on the assumption I could get it in two days instead of two weeks, so it is an unfair form of anti-competition.
Contrast that to shipping having sped up for most other major retailers (say Best Buy, Walmart, ...) such that I often get things in one day with free or low cost shipping.
My falling out with AMZN started when I saw obviously fraudulent product listings and contacted AMZN only to be told they didn't care unless I had bought the product and been defrauded.
What they don't seem to get is that when they have this attitude it calls into question whether I can trust ANY product listings on AMZN.
> calls into question whether I can trust ANY product listings on AMZN
I have this same problem, so I end up doing extra research both on and off amazon to try to be sure the product is legit. This boils down to time and work on my part, and when it gets to the point where I get frustrated or distracted, Amazon doesn't get a purchase from me. I suppose they're just too big and have too much momentum to care, but _eventually_ they will fall from their high position because they have become big and lazy.
I have this same problem, so I end up doing extra research both on and off amazon to try to be sure the product is legit. This boils down to time and work on my part, and when it gets to the point where I get frustrated or distracted, Amazon doesn't get a purchase from me. I suppose they're just too big and have too much momentum to care, but _eventually_ they will fall from their high position because they have become big and lazy.
They can get away with it because conventional retailers are also pretty arrogant, particularly in that they decide what their customers want to buy.
For instance Best Buy wants to sell you a SATA SSD but they won't sell you the mounting bracket to mount it in a desktop computer or to adapt the molex power connector to the drive. They sell low end mirrorless cameras but don't have a significant collection of lenses.
I have a serious crafting programme but can find exactly one item at Michael's that I want because they are similarly opinionated.
Amazon stocks the products I want to buy but the consistency of their service is awful.
For instance Best Buy wants to sell you a SATA SSD but they won't sell you the mounting bracket to mount it in a desktop computer or to adapt the molex power connector to the drive. They sell low end mirrorless cameras but don't have a significant collection of lenses.
I have a serious crafting programme but can find exactly one item at Michael's that I want because they are similarly opinionated.
Amazon stocks the products I want to buy but the consistency of their service is awful.
So you are saying if they start substituting refurbs for new they can be the new Fry's?
If prime deliveries are late, contact their customer service. The couple times I've needed to do that, they refunded me a month of prime.
For me, prime has gotten better, with most items able to be delivered next day.
For me, prime has gotten better, with most items able to be delivered next day.
I’ve had shipments be late and go missing recently and they straight up just say “ok we will send you another one” without any other resolution. They seem to be stopping that behavior, at least for me. I have to specifically complain about the cost of Prime or tell them I am considering canceling before they offer up $5.
I’ve been through this even when I have bought the product. They still don’t care beyond honoring the return.
I agree it's been bad for a while, but by following the negative trend, it is also true that it's gotten noticeably worse. Amazon has nearly completed its transformation into AliExpress but with a worse search function.
If the search function was good, Amazon wouldn't be able to make any money by selling search ads. The only buyers for those ads are vendors who want their interchangeable trinkets to show up at the top of the results screen.
If you're suggesting that AliExpress would be an overall better shopping experience (including appreciating the delivered product), then I will switch!
I actually use ebay. You get the exact same cheap chinesium crap you would get from amazon, with more reliable shipping and often it's cheaper, with the option to get nearly directly from the chinese supplier for a tenth the cost if you are willing to wait the month it takes to come by boat.
> chinesium
Thanks for the new material name!
Thanks for the new material name!
This should have been a comment in a of the weekly threads where HNers complain about Amazon.
amelius(1)
> shifting the manufacturing to another don't-care country
a.k.a. a poor country. So you're blaming businesses in foreign countries for seeing an opportunity to manufacture to a price-point, to satisfy a Western market that can't satisfy that demand domestically.
Isn't that what businesses are supposed to do? Perhaps the don't-care countries are really the ones that generate the demand?
a.k.a. a poor country. So you're blaming businesses in foreign countries for seeing an opportunity to manufacture to a price-point, to satisfy a Western market that can't satisfy that demand domestically.
Isn't that what businesses are supposed to do? Perhaps the don't-care countries are really the ones that generate the demand?
I don't blame the foreign manufacturers. I blame the companies that make decisions, contract the manufacturers, and specify the quality level.
I don't care what country those decision makers are in; they are to blame.
However, if there were environmental and human rights oversight in the manufacturing facilities, likely the quality of products would go up. Just look at the hoopla over Foxconn/Apple situations has caused.
I don't want any product that someone has suffered unreasonably to produce. No comfort of mine is worth great suffering or damage of someone else.
The don't care countries probably aren't creating the demand. More likley, it's "home country" people who were the same types who pushed the offshore software development in the previous 20 years (to enormous waste and failure) who are to blame.
The poor countries are just a tool for the exploiters. Same as the African countries who get exploited for natural resources by US and western European copmanies.
I don't care what country those decision makers are in; they are to blame.
However, if there were environmental and human rights oversight in the manufacturing facilities, likely the quality of products would go up. Just look at the hoopla over Foxconn/Apple situations has caused.
I don't want any product that someone has suffered unreasonably to produce. No comfort of mine is worth great suffering or damage of someone else.
The don't care countries probably aren't creating the demand. More likley, it's "home country" people who were the same types who pushed the offshore software development in the previous 20 years (to enormous waste and failure) who are to blame.
The poor countries are just a tool for the exploiters. Same as the African countries who get exploited for natural resources by US and western European copmanies.
It also creates an impossible environment for sellers - you have to compete with people with terrible products and heavy marketing budgets.
Amazon shopping is bifurcating into:
1. Drop shippers 're-branding' stuff from SE Asia
2. Amazon-branded clones of successful products.
#2 is where Amazon has been headed all along.
1. Drop shippers 're-branding' stuff from SE Asia
2. Amazon-branded clones of successful products.
#2 is where Amazon has been headed all along.
#2 is exactly what Walmart and other big brick and mortar US retailers did.
At least there is some hope that the rebranded products will share one brand, and so the critical mass of consumer anger will be reached faster. It's still all a wrong approach to doing business, however.
At least there is some hope that the rebranded products will share one brand, and so the critical mass of consumer anger will be reached faster. It's still all a wrong approach to doing business, however.
It's weird...I've been a customer since 2000, and still shop there daily. I hear a lot about counterfits and terrible quality, but my purchases are almost universally perfectly satisfactory for my needs. I think I'm using Amazon differently from others, but I can't figure out the difference.
The answer is so simple the problem isn't worth spending time on: delete your Amazon account and don't visit the site. Everything you need is available elsewhere.
I've not bought anything on Amazon for more than ten years.
I've not bought anything on Amazon for more than ten years.
You can probably get same day delivery from Target. it might cost a little more and the selection limited to what is in your local store, but it seems like this is a feature given your complaints.
The solution is simple. Now what we need to do is - hang with me here - shop _inside_ the stores selling the product, so that you can see and test it first hand _before_ you buy it.
I agree that there's a lot of junk on amazon.
Is it really that hard to filter out? I very rarely end up getting something from amazon and have it be completely worthless and not even returnable.
Is it really that hard to filter out? I very rarely end up getting something from amazon and have it be completely worthless and not even returnable.
> Is it really that hard to filter out?
This depends heavily on the category, in my experience. Clothing and some electronics categories seem to have zero outwardly legitimate listings.
I had to buy plug adapters for travel and there wasn't a single brand I recognized except the AmazonBasics ones.
This depends heavily on the category, in my experience. Clothing and some electronics categories seem to have zero outwardly legitimate listings.
I had to buy plug adapters for travel and there wasn't a single brand I recognized except the AmazonBasics ones.
The solution is called a “brand”. Buy Anker, not random made up Chinese name, electronic accessories. Buy Gildan, not random nameless made-in-Pakistan disposable clothing.
How do you know it is not commingled in the Amazon warehouse with counterfeit products?
Anker has its own store within Amazon, and you can see it as the verified seller on their product pages. But the general point of this post is correct: Amazon is a terrible shopping experience and it’s mostly because they’ve monetized the search
Most reliable brands have a store on Amazon. Go to that store and buy from that store. You get the reliable brand plus the return policy and fast shipping.
Unfortunately, inventory mixing broke that some time ago. You can order from RealBrand's store on Amazon and Amazon can still deliver you something some other seller told them was the same item. It's pretty awful.
I would love to do this. But I don't know the reliable brand; how can I find it in the sea of search results which is mostly this kind of stuff?
I mean things like Patagonia or North Face or Google or what not. You just go to their store. For weird one off shit like a suction cups for your car it's a bit of a gamble.
*go to their store on Amazon I mean
There’s a similar race to the top for brands that are focused on luxury markets. Brands that have a hold on this market now charge exorbitant prices.
If you want an easy way to find premium products, buy from a retailer that specializes in selling premium products.
Easy, cheap, good: pick two.
Easy, cheap, good: pick two.
My local grocery and hardware store don't have this problem. I don't see what the problem is. Just shop locally.
Market will correct itself eventually.
I think this mentality is about like saying the earth/climate will correct itself eventually. Yeah it probably will, but long after I would have liked it to (for my selfish benefit).
No it won't. "Sears" used to sell high-quality own-brand products, then eventually outsourced to China, now it's gone.
Amazon is the next Sears. Eventually something will come along with a selection of curated high-quality products, everyone will celebrate how amazing it is, and it will replace Amazon. Then that too will eventually need to pay back investors and shareholders, exploit its dominant position in the marketplace, and race to the bottom, again.
This is the natural cycle of commerce in capitalism.
Amazon is the next Sears. Eventually something will come along with a selection of curated high-quality products, everyone will celebrate how amazing it is, and it will replace Amazon. Then that too will eventually need to pay back investors and shareholders, exploit its dominant position in the marketplace, and race to the bottom, again.
This is the natural cycle of commerce in capitalism.
Yes sir you just explained in a paragraph what I said in one sentence haha
- There are multiple products, sometimes dozens, which are actually the same product in the same or different colors, and often with a variety of nonsense manufactorer names. So there is the appearance of choice while actually the non-same items are difficult to find (needle in haystack)
- Products tend to be very low quality. If you take time to read the reviews, it's obvious that many of the high reviews are stuffed. The low score reviews usually tell the same story: a critical part breaks on first use, or a critical flaw renders the item completely unsuitable for the task it is intended for.
- Counterfeits... I don't even need to get into this, as it's a very well-known problem.
Unfortunately, the Walmart effect applies here too, because the low prices attract most shoppers, and the small players (and brick and mortar stores) can't compete and go out of business. If they try to compete, they typically just find the same garbage manufacturers who are selling on Amazon. It's a race to the bottom.
As consumers, we end up with items that are either useless on arrival (and not even worth returning), or they are far less than we would have hoped or wished for or been willing to pay for.
The great irony is, with the ability to import items from around the globe, and the significant number of online stores, it can still be impossible to find even a decent simple item (such as an extended reach car wash brush).
Even if you search more broadly than directly on Amazon, you see the same few items across most online retailers. And when you read reviews of the items on each retailer website, you see the same low score complaints... sometimes in such detail that you can be certain that it was the exact same product.
I see no solution to this. There is one country where most of this garbage comes from, but any special measures to penalize their exports will just result in shifting the manufacturing to another don't-care country which will pick up the slack.
Imagine the total cost of this situation, from materials consumption to trash piles (which is a short process for many of these products). It's an obscene waste.
/rant