Ask HN: How to do the bare minimum when not valued at work?
I am a senior individual contributor in tech. I got the signal that I am being managed out. However I am still giving my best as I am honest and passionate. Only consolation is that, a lot of colleagues are also being managed out. (The product is making good money though). The environment has become very toxic with a lot of politics across all the levels. To make matters worse, I am working on some legacy technologies. I know that sooner or later I will be laid off. Questions
1. Have you been through situation? How did you overcome?
2. How to implement the do the bare minimum?. I am finding it difficult. In fact, I keep checking office mails all the time.
3. What should your strategy be?. (I have been playing around with new tech though. But there are way too many fields in tech). Searching for another job is not an option at this point. I would rather wait for them to fire me.
120 comments
No one is the villain in their own story - but if you want this bit "I am honest and passionate" to jive, then these bits "How to implement the do the bare minimum? Searching for another job is not an option at this point. I would rather wait for them to fire me." gotta go.
Either do a good job, or leave for somewhere else where you can. Anything else is not the activity of an honest and passionate person. You can rationalize all you want, some things are out of your control, but the one thing solely in your control is how you behave. Staying on a job doing the bare minimum until you get fired because you've decided that the effort involved in improving your situation is "not an option" is a choice, and not one that reflects well on you.
Either do a good job, or leave for somewhere else where you can. Anything else is not the activity of an honest and passionate person. You can rationalize all you want, some things are out of your control, but the one thing solely in your control is how you behave. Staying on a job doing the bare minimum until you get fired because you've decided that the effort involved in improving your situation is "not an option" is a choice, and not one that reflects well on you.
And it has other unintended consequences. People go out for drinks. People talk. If your potential future employer is a friend of your boss he'll find out pretty quickly you are "a nice guy but an under-performer". Do you really want to be that guy?
> If your potential future employer is a friend of your boss he'll find out pretty quickly you are "a nice guy but an under-performer".
This is so unlikely that it's not worth changing so much of your behaviour for it.
This is so unlikely that it's not worth changing so much of your behaviour for it.
Depends in where you live ;-) The chance of running into people again here in the Copenhagen tech scene is > 50%
If you gossip about other people's productivity, you deserve to be despised as a boss.
You’d be surprised. I live in a city where in the tech sector, everyone knows everyone. I always joke that I can make 4 phone calls and find out about any engineer in the area because they’ve certainly crossed paths with mutual acquaintances.
Life is too short to intentionally jump on this downward spiral.
Don't forget the decrease in your sense of self-worth and increase in being cynical and toxic to deal with.
People intentionally doing the bare minimum are unhappy unpleasant people. People no one wants to associate with.
Don't forget the decrease in your sense of self-worth and increase in being cynical and toxic to deal with.
People intentionally doing the bare minimum are unhappy unpleasant people. People no one wants to associate with.
Not to mention that self sabotaging your good work habits is counter-productive. You may think that you are getting one over them, but it's just as likely that after a few months of doing bare minimum, it will become your new "default" behaviour and carry over to your new job/endeavor.
I'm not sure about this. Given that OP is being managed out and the culture is toxic, their relationship with this company has an expiration date anyway, the question is how to manage things in the meantime. I don't see the point of putting in a lot of extra effort given that it won't be rewarded in any way.
Toxic people always think it's the rest of the company is toxic, and not them.
Always? Pretty sure that there are also toxic people who just go about their lives without realising how they affect others.
And even if you’re right, there should be some nontoxic people in toxic environments and they should able to talk about it without someone immediately accusing them of being the problem.
And even if you’re right, there should be some nontoxic people in toxic environments and they should able to talk about it without someone immediately accusing them of being the problem.
Perhaps, but reading through other responses, a clear picture is starting to form.
OP admits to wanting to "teach the company a lesson"[1], and then responded to another commentor, who advised they fake a personal crisis and play victim and referred to women as people with "oily holes between their legs", that this was "interesting and worth implementing"[2].
1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32970777 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32970399
OP admits to wanting to "teach the company a lesson"[1], and then responded to another commentor, who advised they fake a personal crisis and play victim and referred to women as people with "oily holes between their legs", that this was "interesting and worth implementing"[2].
1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32970777 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32970399
Thanks. Yah thats right. That was exactly my point.
Actually you can do whatever you want and there won't be any consequences. The scare tactic that they will talk of some perception to others and single you out is as non-important as your effort during the context that you know you are being phased out. The commenter is creating a moral soap box which when opened smells bad. If you want to treat them the way they treat you, game theory is on your side.
You are conflating morals with ethics. Ethically, compensation negotiations, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are based on the assumption of good faith reasonable best efforts. If you continue to draw your salary while ceasing to provide reasonable best efforts, you are intentionally acting in bad faith and the employer has grounds for termination or at least reduction in pay. You are of course free to do whatever you choose, and there may or may not be any professional consequences. But the OP indicated they are an honest person - intentionally acting in bad faith while continuing to draw a paycheck is not honest. Honest would be to either move on, or tell the employer you intend to reduce your efforts, and I think we know what the result would be.
> If you continue to draw your salary while ceasing to provide reasonable best efforts, you are intentionally acting in bad faith and the employer has grounds for termination or at least reduction in pay.
I know you're mostly focused on OP's use of the word "honest", but I think that misses something.
The term "reasonable best effort" is biased in favor of the employer since companies recognize that mediocre performance (relative to the position) is the norm. They also recognize that people like OP exist, and are more than happy to take advantage of them since they aren't likely to aggressively negotiate for what they're actually worth (and actually get it), and that not everyone has the luxury of just switching jobs to not get overly exploited. It's also tricky because things change over time, and what once was fair or mutually beneficial may no longer be, and by then, it be can be tricky to transition out of that.
I do think OP needs to reflect upon why they stayed at this place if they've felt taken for granted for so long. At the same time, I understand the frustration and sense of futility that comes with feeling like you want to give your best, but that you're not in an environment conducive to that.
I also don't think honesty is so binary to where if OP scales back effort in order to transition out of this role, that they can no longer claim to be "honest". Nor does honesty necessarily imply putting oneself in a precarious position and quitting before they're able to do so, especially since I doubt OP's higher-ups have any expectation of being honest and transparent with them that their days are numbered regardless of performance.
edit: I didn't see OP's reply to other commenters and assumed good faith. Nonetheless, I stand by my comment even if it no longer applies to this particular situation
I know you're mostly focused on OP's use of the word "honest", but I think that misses something.
The term "reasonable best effort" is biased in favor of the employer since companies recognize that mediocre performance (relative to the position) is the norm. They also recognize that people like OP exist, and are more than happy to take advantage of them since they aren't likely to aggressively negotiate for what they're actually worth (and actually get it), and that not everyone has the luxury of just switching jobs to not get overly exploited. It's also tricky because things change over time, and what once was fair or mutually beneficial may no longer be, and by then, it be can be tricky to transition out of that.
I do think OP needs to reflect upon why they stayed at this place if they've felt taken for granted for so long. At the same time, I understand the frustration and sense of futility that comes with feeling like you want to give your best, but that you're not in an environment conducive to that.
I also don't think honesty is so binary to where if OP scales back effort in order to transition out of this role, that they can no longer claim to be "honest". Nor does honesty necessarily imply putting oneself in a precarious position and quitting before they're able to do so, especially since I doubt OP's higher-ups have any expectation of being honest and transparent with them that their days are numbered regardless of performance.
edit: I didn't see OP's reply to other commenters and assumed good faith. Nonetheless, I stand by my comment even if it no longer applies to this particular situation
I think in a good faith situation, a scaling back while transitioning out is totally fair. That's a far cry different from intentionally trying to figure out how to do the bare minimum while also refusing to look elsewhere though. I think we are on the same page.
I get your point. I still am honest. But they have taken me for granted for way too long. Hence I am contemplating doing the bare minimum. ( I dont see anything wrong with this either since good work is anyway not appreciated. Those who are rewarded aren't doing anything great either. Majority of them are are well connected with the key people in management)
There is that rationalization I mentioned. If you "are still honest", walk into your bosses office and make it clear you intend to do the minimum and your reasons why. That is honest. Perhaps they will be fine with it. Perhaps they will renegotiate your pay. Perhaps they will let you go. Either way you will have been honest. Otherwise just stop tossing the word honest around and go about your business.
You're getting caught up on the word honest instead of giving practical advice.
I already gave the practical advice, now I’m addressing the cognitive dissonance.
Well, they do
Life is too short to jump on that downward spiral.
Your sense of self-worth will be impacted. You will become the toxicity you hate.
Your sense of self-worth will be impacted. You will become the toxicity you hate.
You strike me as a passionate employee that cares about the work. That is a great personality trait, wanted by many employers. Don't throw that out because of politics, make use of it somewhere where its valued instead! Doing bare minimum will probably not be enjoyable; it made me resentful and depressed.
This is a good time disconnecting from current work and explore new avenues. Start interviewing as a way to build up your confidence, visit other offices, talk to other passionate employees, understand what it could mean to be valued in a new company.
Contrary to popular HN belief, it is possible to land a new job, with better compensation and interesting work without participating in complicated interview processes.
At the very least, you have now opened doors to new work should you eventually be fired.
This is a good time disconnecting from current work and explore new avenues. Start interviewing as a way to build up your confidence, visit other offices, talk to other passionate employees, understand what it could mean to be valued in a new company.
Contrary to popular HN belief, it is possible to land a new job, with better compensation and interesting work without participating in complicated interview processes.
At the very least, you have now opened doors to new work should you eventually be fired.
> At the very least, you have now opened doors to new work should you eventually be fired.
This x 100!
This x 100!
> Contrary to popular HN belief, it is possible to land a new job, … without participating in complicated interview processes.
Contrary to popular HN belief, the job interviewing process can be fun, interesting and fulfilling. As a job candidate, you get the opportunity to do something almost nobody gets to do: you get to peel back the curtain on a workplace and, as an outsider, see what it’s like! Is it the sort of place you’d enjoy working in? We spend so long in most workplaces that it becomes impossible to see the forest for the trees; or see our potential independently of the potential of our coworkers. Interviewing shakes us out of complacency.
Job searching can be an opportunity to redefine yourself and explore what’s out there. Think of it like travelling to other countries. It can be stressful, but the change of scenery can be delightful if we let ourselves enjoy it.
Contrary to popular HN belief, the job interviewing process can be fun, interesting and fulfilling. As a job candidate, you get the opportunity to do something almost nobody gets to do: you get to peel back the curtain on a workplace and, as an outsider, see what it’s like! Is it the sort of place you’d enjoy working in? We spend so long in most workplaces that it becomes impossible to see the forest for the trees; or see our potential independently of the potential of our coworkers. Interviewing shakes us out of complacency.
Job searching can be an opportunity to redefine yourself and explore what’s out there. Think of it like travelling to other countries. It can be stressful, but the change of scenery can be delightful if we let ourselves enjoy it.
I do not see how take home assignments, leet code questions, whiteboard programming and binary tree inversion can fun and fulfilling.
I want to explore potential co-workers, what the employer would value in me, what interesting hard problems they have, what they do for fun, how they celebrate and how they learn, if they actually code or have meetings, what I would be doing, what they need help with, what I can bring.
I think all of the above can be understood in a meeting or two and should take about 2-3 days from meeting to offer and not be stressful :)
I want to explore potential co-workers, what the employer would value in me, what interesting hard problems they have, what they do for fun, how they celebrate and how they learn, if they actually code or have meetings, what I would be doing, what they need help with, what I can bring.
I think all of the above can be understood in a meeting or two and should take about 2-3 days from meeting to offer and not be stressful :)
>take home assignments, leet code questions, whiteboard programming and binary tree inversion
As a candidate you can choose to refuse to engage with such impositions. If it's a dealbreaker for the potential employee, you probably don't want to work there anyway.
As a candidate you can choose to refuse to engage with such impositions. If it's a dealbreaker for the potential employee, you probably don't want to work there anyway.
Right... another way to look at this response is it's really passive-aggressively hoping they figure out they are wrong; it's still looking for their approval.
If you are truly dependent on specifically them, eg for visa reasons, that can only lead to a "partially managed decline".
If not, it's better to make your own decision to switch tracks in a controlled way and leave their bullshit and your need to care at all about it behind. You only have so many days on the planet, you will regret wasting them with people that make you feel like this.
If you are truly dependent on specifically them, eg for visa reasons, that can only lead to a "partially managed decline".
If not, it's better to make your own decision to switch tracks in a controlled way and leave their bullshit and your need to care at all about it behind. You only have so many days on the planet, you will regret wasting them with people that make you feel like this.
Great answer that I wish I knew years ago. I was that guy.
So I started just doing as little as possible and... nobody seemed to care. It was on paper a sweet gig. Decent salary, lopsided work life balance. But you're right... despite what sounds like a dream job, I was constantly bitter about it all.
I finally moved jobs, am actually working again, and much happier. Wish I'd done it 5 years ago.
So I started just doing as little as possible and... nobody seemed to care. It was on paper a sweet gig. Decent salary, lopsided work life balance. But you're right... despite what sounds like a dream job, I was constantly bitter about it all.
I finally moved jobs, am actually working again, and much happier. Wish I'd done it 5 years ago.
Thanks a lot for the kind words. Sure. I will do try that out.
It sounds like you're not really over the job. If you were, you would be fixedly focused on getting a new one. So my guess is that anything you do about pulling back effort or leaving whilst working from this mindset is going to be half-hearted. I personally think advice on this matter will be wasted, because if it mattered to you, you would have figured out an answer to your question yourself. People naturally drag their feet on things they don't believe in and aren't excited for, it's not a learned skill.
Anyway, if I'm right, it follows that you're struggling to do the bare minimum because people who care don't do the bare minimum, they do their best, often at expense to themselves.
I would suggest maybe you try to come up with some rules (no emails before X AM or after Y PM, answer emails at least 1 day after receipt, work no overtime unless asked) and you could practice them until it becomes reflex. On top of this, I find it useful to look at what your 'worst' peers are doing and slowly adjust the pace of work to meet them if you're outperforming them.
Whatever you do, start the search for a new job now. It takes time and applying and interviewing is a skill that you should practice, something amazing may come up and you can go for it, but you won't know unless you look. If you're aiming at big companies, you don't want to have to wait to the last minute when they give you notice to start grinding leetcode questions, do you?
Anyway, if I'm right, it follows that you're struggling to do the bare minimum because people who care don't do the bare minimum, they do their best, often at expense to themselves.
I would suggest maybe you try to come up with some rules (no emails before X AM or after Y PM, answer emails at least 1 day after receipt, work no overtime unless asked) and you could practice them until it becomes reflex. On top of this, I find it useful to look at what your 'worst' peers are doing and slowly adjust the pace of work to meet them if you're outperforming them.
Whatever you do, start the search for a new job now. It takes time and applying and interviewing is a skill that you should practice, something amazing may come up and you can go for it, but you won't know unless you look. If you're aiming at big companies, you don't want to have to wait to the last minute when they give you notice to start grinding leetcode questions, do you?
Thanks a ton. Very useful. I did think about such rules. (for example work 9 to 5 etc). But it's difficult to implement since I think a lot about the work even after knowing I am not valued. (I bring a lot of value to the table. They do know. But they are playing the politics). Good point on what 'worst' peers are doing. Most of them have quit/asked to quit/moved to different teams. Very few left now to compare to. They make a lot of noise all the time and fooling the incompetent management.
I still haven't started searching for job because 1) Work life balance is good here 2) I hate interview focussed learning. I am more interested in broader technology/problem statement/solution based learning.
You may be forced into searching for a job later if you don't do it now. Doing it now will be a lot easier than if you have no job and time is running out down the line. There is no reason why you can't find another job with a good work life balance and I don't completely understand the second reason you don't want to search for a job,it may sound harsh but it kind of sounds like an excuse to help avoid going through uncomfortable interviews. They aren't fun, but you will need to do them eventually.
Maintain social health and get exercise. You should be doing these already, but now they're more important.
Talk to a therapist. No shame.
Talk to a therapist. No shame.
Some parameters missing in your description:
Are you expecting a large severance payment if you do work until they initiate termination, that you would not get if you quit?
Do you need any of these political bloodsuckers' reference and good word to land a new job?
If the product is making money but somehow the company that owns it does not see a future in more investment there, who are their competition and why not work for these guys instead? How valuable is your domain knowledge and how much is locked in non-competes? Same question for the customers of the product you are working on... Why is your goal to do the bare minimum? Why use the passive form in "being managed out"? Someone somehow has put themselves on top of your game what did they do to corner you, is this in the company's best interest, or is it in their own personal best interest?
Are you expecting a large severance payment if you do work until they initiate termination, that you would not get if you quit?
Do you need any of these political bloodsuckers' reference and good word to land a new job?
If the product is making money but somehow the company that owns it does not see a future in more investment there, who are their competition and why not work for these guys instead? How valuable is your domain knowledge and how much is locked in non-competes? Same question for the customers of the product you are working on... Why is your goal to do the bare minimum? Why use the passive form in "being managed out"? Someone somehow has put themselves on top of your game what did they do to corner you, is this in the company's best interest, or is it in their own personal best interest?
Thanks for the very good input. Severance package is not the reason why I am still here. From what I hear/read, these days its more or less the same everywhere.( Grass is not greener). Whereas, I can keep learning new things (on my own) at my current place since the expectation is low.
You are right. The company is not making fresh investments in the product since it is sort of a legacy product now. The domain knowledge is very valuable. I cant name the competition here. But the work culture is worse there. My goal of doing bare minimum is to teach them a lesson ( They may not care though). I don't think they are doing in the company's best interest. It's pure politics.
> From what I hear/read, these days its more or less the same everywhere
Things are absolutely not like this everywhere. I don't know where you got this idea that things can never be better than terrible, but it isn't true.
> My goal of doing bare minimum is to teach them a lesson
I mean, you do you, but to me this vindictive motive reads as super unprofessional and could backfire on your career, even outside of this company. It's one thing if you're trapped at this job because of circumstances outside of your control, but assuming you have the opportunity to look for something else, you owe yourself more than to intentionally stay in a toxic workplace just to get some kind of misguided revenge (?).
Move on. Your career is not a torpedo whose only remaining purpose is to detonate itself at a target that's done you wrong. Leave the toxicity behind and do something you'll feel good about.
Things are absolutely not like this everywhere. I don't know where you got this idea that things can never be better than terrible, but it isn't true.
> My goal of doing bare minimum is to teach them a lesson
I mean, you do you, but to me this vindictive motive reads as super unprofessional and could backfire on your career, even outside of this company. It's one thing if you're trapped at this job because of circumstances outside of your control, but assuming you have the opportunity to look for something else, you owe yourself more than to intentionally stay in a toxic workplace just to get some kind of misguided revenge (?).
Move on. Your career is not a torpedo whose only remaining purpose is to detonate itself at a target that's done you wrong. Leave the toxicity behind and do something you'll feel good about.
Often domain knowledge is far more valuable than specific technology skills. The latter can often be learnt quicker than acquiring domain knowledge in a new field.
The first thing you need to do is accept that you're getting managed out - it's nothing personal, hell, it's not even got to do with how good you were at your job. These things happen, usually to reduce headcount or, in the case of my ex working in Meta, because another manager took a jealous dislike to her.
Once you accept that you're more than likely going to have to leave, just start getting the gears turning to find a new job. Interviews, resume updates, learning new skills and getting certifications, basically anything that will help you land a role. Do some due dilligence on your potential new roles, the companies offering those roles, and the likely salary and benefits.
Treat this job search like proper work - so no slacking off, taking late lunches or anything of that kind. The absolute worst thing that can happen is that you come in one morning, and your office access won't work, and instead you have a action plan ready to go.
Once you accept that you're more than likely going to have to leave, just start getting the gears turning to find a new job. Interviews, resume updates, learning new skills and getting certifications, basically anything that will help you land a role. Do some due dilligence on your potential new roles, the companies offering those roles, and the likely salary and benefits.
Treat this job search like proper work - so no slacking off, taking late lunches or anything of that kind. The absolute worst thing that can happen is that you come in one morning, and your office access won't work, and instead you have a action plan ready to go.
Thanks for the advice. Makes sense.
If you want to do the bare minimum, a good starting point would be removing any work accounts from your phone. Make an effort to close your work laptop at the end of the work day. Focus on your main goals during the day, perhaps some project you want to finish before it ends. All this will allow you to focus on either what's expected of you, or what's truly important to you.
That said, I do agree with the other comments here suggesting a talk with the manager or a new job. Why get yourself stuck in a situation where you can't take pride of your work?
That said, I do agree with the other comments here suggesting a talk with the manager or a new job. Why get yourself stuck in a situation where you can't take pride of your work?
> a good starting point would be removing any work accounts from your phone.
+1 to this.
I recently did this and found it enjoyable; I followed this advice from mentors. Disconnecting from work made me happier & I get to spend more time with my family. I enjoy my stress-free weekends and live in peace.
The exact quote that made me nuke all work accounts from my mobile:
Your ${COMPANY} can replace you in an instant; Your family & loved ones can NEVER replace you!
+1 to this.
I recently did this and found it enjoyable; I followed this advice from mentors. Disconnecting from work made me happier & I get to spend more time with my family. I enjoy my stress-free weekends and live in peace.
The exact quote that made me nuke all work accounts from my mobile:
Your ${COMPANY} can replace you in an instant; Your family & loved ones can NEVER replace you!
Thanks for the advice.
Why isn't searching for a new job an option? That should be number one.
Number two is figuring out a new skill which will help you get that job, and using it at your current work somehow.
Number two is figuring out a new skill which will help you get that job, and using it at your current work somehow.
Doing job interviews gives you perspective and is an effective way of getting out of your comfort zone. You might even learn something about management in other places which could be immediately helpful for you and your current employer.
Thanks. I already answered in the other post. At this point, I am focusing more on learning skills.
If your employer is a for-profit company, why would you work above and beyond what they're paying you to do?
You might feel an obligation to your users, your manager or your teammates to go the extra mile. But recognise that what you're ultimately doing is enriching the owners of the company - people with capital who aren't working at all for the profit you generate. Which is absolutely fine while you're getting paid fairly for your time. Work is work, volunteering is volunteering. Keep them separate.
People are more likely to value and respect the things they pay for. People often forget to value things they get for free. That includes employers with your time. Unpaid overtime often goes unnoticed, or just becomes expected.
In my professional life I occasionally go above and beyond. Usually when I'm both enjoying the work and the thing I'm doing is highly visible. But those times are more than balanced out by the time I have slacked off in core hours. And I have still delivered value, been recognised for it and advanced.
I perhaps could have advanced quicker if I'd done unpaid overtime. But then I would have been more stressed, and have had less time to invest in other areas of my life. Some of these extra curricular things have been helpful to my career. Like learning promising technologies I am interested in, whether or not they have immediate relevance to my employer. Or doing job interviews.
>Searching for another job is not an option at this point
I wonder why this is not an option. If it is because you lack the time or confidence to do so, then cutting back on working for free should help with that.
You might feel an obligation to your users, your manager or your teammates to go the extra mile. But recognise that what you're ultimately doing is enriching the owners of the company - people with capital who aren't working at all for the profit you generate. Which is absolutely fine while you're getting paid fairly for your time. Work is work, volunteering is volunteering. Keep them separate.
People are more likely to value and respect the things they pay for. People often forget to value things they get for free. That includes employers with your time. Unpaid overtime often goes unnoticed, or just becomes expected.
In my professional life I occasionally go above and beyond. Usually when I'm both enjoying the work and the thing I'm doing is highly visible. But those times are more than balanced out by the time I have slacked off in core hours. And I have still delivered value, been recognised for it and advanced.
I perhaps could have advanced quicker if I'd done unpaid overtime. But then I would have been more stressed, and have had less time to invest in other areas of my life. Some of these extra curricular things have been helpful to my career. Like learning promising technologies I am interested in, whether or not they have immediate relevance to my employer. Or doing job interviews.
>Searching for another job is not an option at this point
I wonder why this is not an option. If it is because you lack the time or confidence to do so, then cutting back on working for free should help with that.
Thanks for the advice. I go the extra mile since I am passionate.
I think most people have passions. I guess the questions I would be asking are what am I really passionate about? What do I value? What makes me feel fulfilled?
1. Never check your office mails all the time. Making yourself constantly available and never pushing back on anything is a sure fire way of being undervalued. Do your job, do it well. Set some boundaries and expect to be respected.
You shouldn’t end up in a situation where you think you are managed out. It means your manager and your company are not transparent with you about what’s happening. The minimum you should expect from a company is to be honest with you regarding your performance and your future - I know it’s becoming more and more rare sadly.
2. There is little point in sticking in doing the minimum passively waiting to be fired. It’s miserable. Change job or straight ask management what’s happening and if they are planning to fire you. Worst scenario they will fire you now. You will get your severance and have time to move on.
You shouldn’t end up in a situation where you think you are managed out. It means your manager and your company are not transparent with you about what’s happening. The minimum you should expect from a company is to be honest with you regarding your performance and your future - I know it’s becoming more and more rare sadly.
2. There is little point in sticking in doing the minimum passively waiting to be fired. It’s miserable. Change job or straight ask management what’s happening and if they are planning to fire you. Worst scenario they will fire you now. You will get your severance and have time to move on.
Thanks a lot for the good advice. Yes I know they are not transparent which hurts more.
You are in a pathological work environment. Good for you for not participating.
Ensure you routinely copy/backup/export all communications, and record any meetings. This will be essential for if you are unfairly laid off.
Similarly, whenever discussion around project outcomes or work items comes up, only do exactly what was discussed. If they told you to do something, do it, but not any implied or assumed extras.
Wherever possible, you need to extend your time and delivery estimates where possible. If you are the subject matter expert then that is easy. Do not let the pathological political environment bully you into burning yourself out to imaginary bullshit timeframes that someone else made up on the spot then reduced by 20%.
Ensure you routinely copy/backup/export all communications, and record any meetings. This will be essential for if you are unfairly laid off.
Similarly, whenever discussion around project outcomes or work items comes up, only do exactly what was discussed. If they told you to do something, do it, but not any implied or assumed extras.
Wherever possible, you need to extend your time and delivery estimates where possible. If you are the subject matter expert then that is easy. Do not let the pathological political environment bully you into burning yourself out to imaginary bullshit timeframes that someone else made up on the spot then reduced by 20%.
Thanks for the advice. Makes sense. Since I am the subject market expert in some areas, it helps to some extent.
I got this advice from a guy who worked many decades at a single company and was about to retire in 2009 - "never burn the bridges" ., keep up the enthusiasm. You never know, they might hire you back down the road...
There is that cliche - "under promise, over deliver" , not sure if that applies to your situation...
There is that cliche - "under promise, over deliver" , not sure if that applies to your situation...
Totally agree with the "never burn bridges" sentiment.
Bad reputation travels further and faster than the good. Always acting professionally, even in difficult circumstances, is a good characterization to have.
Bad reputation travels further and faster than the good. Always acting professionally, even in difficult circumstances, is a good characterization to have.
Thanks for the advice
Always do your best work, even if you are upset with the company. Keep in mind your work reflects you to your professional network. And your professional network include your current coworkers. So it’s in your best interest to always be you, and not to just ship it in. If people notice, they will remember.
If you think your position is not salvageable your best bet now is to find a new job ASAP.
If you think your position is not salvageable your best bet now is to find a new job ASAP.
Thanks for the advice
Here is a how to guide of bare minimum:
If you watch women/men in your work place who act like victims and watch how they work and how they are treated in response by their managers. You can learn a whole lot about putting in the bare minimum and where the line is to not get fired right away. Remember they are very good at manipulation intented/unintended and you can learn a lot from them.
1. You have some drama in your life that is over arching and is impacting your work but you are working through it. Whether it's real or not doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the perception that you are a victim of some sort. You decide on what the story is. You can always bring this up as a reason for not having time or resources to finish something on time.
2. When asked why it's taking too long, there is always an obstacle that you are overcoming and working through. Emphasize your perseverance to get it working.
3. Every chance you get align yourself with someone who is right publicly so you can also look good in front the manager.
These are the behaviours I have witnessed in my career that have worked.
Because of our society it also helps if you have a oily hole between your legs as well. Wish it didn't but it does. Especially with the alpha managers female/male.
As far as ethics, your managers and their managers have none because they can't afford them since they want to go up the ladder as you do. At this point in your story, they are wolves and are eating you, regardless if it's intended or unintended, you are affected. Eating them in your own way is not only your choice but it's the only one beneficial to you if you don't want to find another job.
They are called managers but nobody says you can't manage them in your own way.
If you watch women/men in your work place who act like victims and watch how they work and how they are treated in response by their managers. You can learn a whole lot about putting in the bare minimum and where the line is to not get fired right away. Remember they are very good at manipulation intented/unintended and you can learn a lot from them.
1. You have some drama in your life that is over arching and is impacting your work but you are working through it. Whether it's real or not doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the perception that you are a victim of some sort. You decide on what the story is. You can always bring this up as a reason for not having time or resources to finish something on time.
2. When asked why it's taking too long, there is always an obstacle that you are overcoming and working through. Emphasize your perseverance to get it working.
3. Every chance you get align yourself with someone who is right publicly so you can also look good in front the manager.
These are the behaviours I have witnessed in my career that have worked.
Because of our society it also helps if you have a oily hole between your legs as well. Wish it didn't but it does. Especially with the alpha managers female/male.
As far as ethics, your managers and their managers have none because they can't afford them since they want to go up the ladder as you do. At this point in your story, they are wolves and are eating you, regardless if it's intended or unintended, you are affected. Eating them in your own way is not only your choice but it's the only one beneficial to you if you don't want to find another job.
They are called managers but nobody says you can't manage them in your own way.
Interesting points. Thanks for the tips. Worth implementing them.
If you think advice to fake a personal crisis and play victim, from someone who refers to women as people who have "oily holes between their legs" is "interesting and worth implementing" I see I have been wasting my breath. This, along with your comments about wanting to "teach the company a lesson" speak volumes about your character and throw into question your entire portrayal of the situation.
Random advice from the internet.
Not doing your best says more about you than about your employer.
Leave and get on with your life.
Good luck.
Not doing your best says more about you than about your employer.
Leave and get on with your life.
Good luck.
Take advantage of anything they have to offer that can make you more valuable to someone else in the near future.
While you are still there.
While you are still there.
> Searching for another job is not an option at this point. I would rather wait for them to fire me.
Is starting your own product also not an option? How long of a runway do you have if you were to quit immediately? Three months? Six months?
My experience is that most engineers with non-insignificant experience[1] can create an MVP in about three months.
[1] More specifically, have enough experience to estimate what can be done in two months (leaving a one month margin), and the pragmatism to ruthlessly cut scope until it fits into two months.
Is starting your own product also not an option? How long of a runway do you have if you were to quit immediately? Three months? Six months?
My experience is that most engineers with non-insignificant experience[1] can create an MVP in about three months.
[1] More specifically, have enough experience to estimate what can be done in two months (leaving a one month margin), and the pragmatism to ruthlessly cut scope until it fits into two months.
Thanks for the advice. I don't think I have the talent to start my own product. (Although I am well versed with most of the latest tech). I think I have a runaway of several years if I were to quit. That gives some comfort though.
I have experience at this.
Don’t do any work.
Research your own hobbies on work time.
Look for new jobs.
Browse Hacker News articles.
Use work time to organise all your normal affairs such as tax, paying bills, being on-hold to companies sorting out things. All the time consuming activities that normally consume your life hours. Transfer these to work hours.
Plan your dinner meals.
Build new skills and learn a new tech stack.
Don’t answer emails. People will call you if important.
Don’t answer calls outside of work time. Especially unknown numbers.
Arrive late, go do some exercise, show your face, have a long lunch, more afternoon fitness. Leave early.
I did this for 3 months whilst transitioning to a new job; my old boss was the biggest psychopath in the world. In three months I did absolutely nothing. They would send me to meetings and I’d just sit there! It can be done :)
I did this for 3 months whilst transitioning to a new job; my old boss was the biggest psychopath in the world. In three months I did absolutely nothing. They would send me to meetings and I’d just sit there! It can be done :)
Oh and make sure you raid the stationary cupboard. 8 years later and I still have a surplus supply of 4-pens!!
Don’t take more than an item a day though.
Stock up on printer paper and things like that.
Don’t take more than an item a day though.
Stock up on printer paper and things like that.
That sounds a lot like stealing? Which is quite illegal
Once I was employed as a receptionist at my church and there were dozens of cheap broken pens in a drawer. I decided that it was crucial to my job that I have one single reliable pen always at hand, so I found a good brand gel pen and started using it exclusively. Then I asked my supervisor if we could order some to have on hand.
She told me that most of our office supplies are donations and we can't afford to just buy premium pens because I like them. I was miffed. So I paid out-of-pocket for a box of reliable pens (they cost about $1 apiece). Then I decided to prevent their loss I would label them with my name; that makes sense, right? The office had a labelmaker in the closet and I printed a label with my first name and affixed it to a pen.
My supervisor called me in and pointed out the label and asked me to consider how much that cost us. I ran some calculations and it came to about $0.25 for parts and labor to affix that label to a $1.00 pen. I was still miffed and didn't see her point.
Years later now I see she was utterly justified. It was such a small matter but she'd helped me understand what it's really like to run a business in the black. You just don't make concessions like that because every $1.00 pen you don't purchase is $1.00 that stays in the general fund until the roof collapses or you need to repair a toilet. So thank God for a well-run church that is also a business.
She told me that most of our office supplies are donations and we can't afford to just buy premium pens because I like them. I was miffed. So I paid out-of-pocket for a box of reliable pens (they cost about $1 apiece). Then I decided to prevent their loss I would label them with my name; that makes sense, right? The office had a labelmaker in the closet and I printed a label with my first name and affixed it to a pen.
My supervisor called me in and pointed out the label and asked me to consider how much that cost us. I ran some calculations and it came to about $0.25 for parts and labor to affix that label to a $1.00 pen. I was still miffed and didn't see her point.
Years later now I see she was utterly justified. It was such a small matter but she'd helped me understand what it's really like to run a business in the black. You just don't make concessions like that because every $1.00 pen you don't purchase is $1.00 that stays in the general fund until the roof collapses or you need to repair a toilet. So thank God for a well-run church that is also a business.
That honestly sounds like a pretty poorly run business.
One of my current employees basically checked out at her last job because the boss was too tight to replace a janky VGA cable.
With us, she goes above and beyond, generating thousands a year in additional profits, because we and all it takes is making sure she gets the tools she needs and occasionally stocking the fridge with her preferred brand of orange juice.
One of my current employees basically checked out at her last job because the boss was too tight to replace a janky VGA cable.
With us, she goes above and beyond, generating thousands a year in additional profits, because we and all it takes is making sure she gets the tools she needs and occasionally stocking the fridge with her preferred brand of orange juice.
I don't judge businesses with how well-stocked their fridge is or how they coddle their employees.
It wasn't a case of my employer depriving me of tools necessary to do my daily tasks. It was a case of my employer pointing out that I had a very trivial desire that was totally unnecessary, and that I was being selfish by not considering their POV.
The church I worked for is not an independent entity; they're part of the largest and oldest corporation on Earth - literally. They operate 100% on freewill donations from the faithful; they don't run any profit-making enterprise. They are beholden to rules and regulations from above, but the diocese doesn't routinely assist them financially in daily operations or capital costs.
The church has to consider insurance and liability in everything they do, and my supervisor was the person in charge of making sure that employees were aware of, and on board with, rules and regulations like that.
That church is able to sustain over two dozen subunits of ministries, run by unpaid and mostly untrained volunteers. They've consistently maintained and improved the beauty of the physical plant, all while drawing significantly lower revenue than their neighboring churches. And the reason they can do that is because they're able to teach people like me to think about what it means to buy a $1 pen with a $0.25 label attached.
It wasn't a case of my employer depriving me of tools necessary to do my daily tasks. It was a case of my employer pointing out that I had a very trivial desire that was totally unnecessary, and that I was being selfish by not considering their POV.
The church I worked for is not an independent entity; they're part of the largest and oldest corporation on Earth - literally. They operate 100% on freewill donations from the faithful; they don't run any profit-making enterprise. They are beholden to rules and regulations from above, but the diocese doesn't routinely assist them financially in daily operations or capital costs.
The church has to consider insurance and liability in everything they do, and my supervisor was the person in charge of making sure that employees were aware of, and on board with, rules and regulations like that.
That church is able to sustain over two dozen subunits of ministries, run by unpaid and mostly untrained volunteers. They've consistently maintained and improved the beauty of the physical plant, all while drawing significantly lower revenue than their neighboring churches. And the reason they can do that is because they're able to teach people like me to think about what it means to buy a $1 pen with a $0.25 label attached.
Thanks for the advice.
How about talking it out with one of the managers. Someone you think you can talk to. Talking can immediately relieve the situation, at least make you feel better that you got it shared.
If you think you might be facing layoffs, Talks might even have a goal for you like spending some of the worktime on relevant technologies in other teams.
I do not believe in 'how to do the bare minimum', it's often big part of mental health to be able to contribute.
I am sorry for your situation.
If you think you might be facing layoffs, Talks might even have a goal for you like spending some of the worktime on relevant technologies in other teams.
I do not believe in 'how to do the bare minimum', it's often big part of mental health to be able to contribute.
I am sorry for your situation.
Thanks for the advice. I dont think it will be of any help here. Because my guess is that my manager himself is being managed out. I did think of talking to a few other people in the leadership position. But none of them are transparent.
Premise: They want to squeeze all the value out of your knowledge of the legacy system and then let you go.
Assuming that's true, there is nothing in principle wrong with this. Just make sure you get compensated well enough to make it a win win. You deserve a premium for not getting to learn newer systems through your work.
Assuming that's true, there is nothing in principle wrong with this. Just make sure you get compensated well enough to make it a win win. You deserve a premium for not getting to learn newer systems through your work.
Thanks for the advice
"Only consolation is that, a lot of colleagues are also being managed out."
Maybe it's a cultural thing, but this piece of schadenfreude you openly write, strikes me as really alarming. I wouldn't want to work or hire someone that says something like that.
Maybe it's a cultural thing, but this piece of schadenfreude you openly write, strikes me as really alarming. I wouldn't want to work or hire someone that says something like that.
FWIW I did not read it as schadenfreude at all, instead as a realisation that the OP is not being let go due to their individual shortcomings, but likely as part of a broader context that says more about the current state/politics of the company than the people affected.
edit: typo
edit: typo
Thanks. You are right.
I didn't mean that. Two things. 1. That actually rules out some of my peers playing politics. 2. There is something happening across the board. Thats what I meant.
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> 2. How to implement the do the bare minimum?. I am finding it difficult. In fact, I keep checking office mails all the time.
... stop doing that? If you're a perfectionist/workoholic and can't/won't do anything about it, you can just channel that drive into looking for a new job instead. Your current job is already over and it doesn't make sense to score points with them any more.
... stop doing that? If you're a perfectionist/workoholic and can't/won't do anything about it, you can just channel that drive into looking for a new job instead. Your current job is already over and it doesn't make sense to score points with them any more.
Thanks for the advice.
Can you talk with a manager?
My professional advice is to work the job that you have or take a leave of absence.
Personally, a therapist is always a great resource and ally in life.
My professional advice is to work the job that you have or take a leave of absence.
Personally, a therapist is always a great resource and ally in life.
> What should your strategy be?
It’s easier to find a job with a pay rise when you already have a job, compared to if you’re unemployed.
It’s easier to find a job with a pay rise when you already have a job, compared to if you’re unemployed.
Managing out is an interesting concept. Sometimes, management wants to reduce headcount but they can't afford the layoffs. It may very well be that the "managing out" part stops after a while when enough people have left. If this is the case, only your management knows if anyone.
Good point.
Why is searching for another job not an option? Won't you need to do that anyway when they push you out?
You should start looking right away, luck is involved, you can roll the dice more times then.
I think/guess the poster might be waiting for a redundancy package (or perhaps be on a sponsored visa?). And while that might be ok (and each to their own) why don’t you see what’s out there and try and find the next great place - and if you’re lucky and good at negotiating you might even make more in the next 1-2 years than your redundancy would have been anyway. It can be very psychologically debilitating to stay in a place where you’re not happy and I’d encourage you to look out for your own mental well-being.
If it's as bad as you say. Get out and get out now. This is nothing but negatives. Why stay and burn your reputation? Why stay and burn your will to work?
You are no longer in a mutually beneficial work environment. You have to find a way to change that so both parties are getting value.
You are no longer in a mutually beneficial work environment. You have to find a way to change that so both parties are getting value.
Thanks for the advice. Yes I have a very good reputation across the groups. Even those playing the politics are aware of it. I don't want to burn it.
I’ve never liked the take that you should do the bare minimum if you’re not happy or valued. If you don’t like it there, quit and go somewhere else but while you’re there you should do your best because it’s a reflection of you and your ethics.
Is this a “quiet quitting” post?
May be slightly different. I don't think one is pushed out in the so called "quite quitting".
Quiet quitting is something else. It looks like it’s not real but propaganda and it’s more like people do their duties and nothing else like going the extra mile on any task or doing any unpaid overtime. If you notice quiet quitting is nothing bad per see but some folks pushed this narrative as if something negative. There was a HN thread few days back about the validity of the term.
Quiet Quitting is the negative rebrand of 'work-to-rule' which is a union tactic corporations don't want back in the public consciousness.
There is no shame in doing what you are paid to do, and no more, if your employer is making life unpleasant in some way. In fact, for most people, withholding additional labor is the only leverage they have in the employer-employee relationship.
There is no shame in doing what you are paid to do, and no more, if your employer is making life unpleasant in some way. In fact, for most people, withholding additional labor is the only leverage they have in the employer-employee relationship.
It could be considered a "how do I handle being quietly fired" post.
Don't spend your precious energy worrying too much about the details. Focus on the big picture: your job isn't working out and you need to find a new one. Put your energy into doing that.
Thanks for the advice. Yes focusing on the big picture makes sense.
Start taking a lot of sick days and don't do anything you aren't explicitly required to do.
Thanks for the advice
Start making mistakes.
You mean mistakes to get laid off? Can you please elaborate?
Not OP. Early on in my career I worked as an hourly contractor. They kept trying to reduce my hours because the software I was delivering was practically bug free so they just assumed it was easy. Not my proudest moment but I was desperate for more hours so I let bugs get into production. End users would notice and I’d get a block of hours to come in and fix the bug which would usually only take me a few minutes. I made more money and the management and end users were very happy to get the prompt fixes. The end users liked being a part of the process and it was a good chance for me to talk to them. Management was happy to have such a hard worker available to fix software that was obviously hard to make. Everyone was much happier with more bugs.
"That is a bug AND a feature."
This sounds dumb. Start a startup.