A surprising way to lose your files on Windows
248 comments
> This wasn't obvious to the user because Explorer hides the 'detail' of the file path and simply shows the username
I really really dislike Windows when it hides paths, for example, "My Pictures". Where the heck is that?
This lunacy infects Windows applications, like Quicken and Thunderbird, which spew themselves and their data into gawd knows where hidden directories. Why can't they simply do the obvious? Create a \Quicken directory in the root, and have a \Quicken\program and \Quicken\userdata ? But noooo.
I really really dislike Windows when it hides paths, for example, "My Pictures". Where the heck is that?
This lunacy infects Windows applications, like Quicken and Thunderbird, which spew themselves and their data into gawd knows where hidden directories. Why can't they simply do the obvious? Create a \Quicken directory in the root, and have a \Quicken\program and \Quicken\userdata ? But noooo.
> Why can't [Quicken and other Windows apps] simply do the obvious? Create a \Quicken directory in the root, and have a \Quicken\program and \Quicken\userdata ?
Networked machines. (Aside from the obvious security problems on a multi-user installation.) The "gawd knows where hidden directories" (of which there are two, %APPDATA% and %LOCALAPPDATA%, plus, on a recent Windows version, a number of compatibility links and some sort of integrity level thing) are segregated into the part which should have an authoritative copy on the file server ("roaming") and the part that can or has to stay on the workstation ("local").
Networked machines. (Aside from the obvious security problems on a multi-user installation.) The "gawd knows where hidden directories" (of which there are two, %APPDATA% and %LOCALAPPDATA%, plus, on a recent Windows version, a number of compatibility links and some sort of integrity level thing) are segregated into the part which should have an authoritative copy on the file server ("roaming") and the part that can or has to stay on the workstation ("local").
I can't believe windows doesn't offer an option "this is my laptop, nobody else is ever going to use it". I hate logging in to my own laptop and having a user folder like some loser student in a library
Every OS is like this... Except Haiku.
And you aren't the only user on pretty much every OS. There are many many many built in "users" for different internal operations.
And you aren't the only user on pretty much every OS. There are many many many built in "users" for different internal operations.
Not relevant. Every OS also has different levels of user.
Your user should be the admin, shouldn't be tied a profile etc. Linux is setup like more like this.
Yeah, it makes it more complex for certain network style things (you have 4 computers and want to sync between them), but it's trivial to work around.
The reason Windows is built like this is they develop first for enterprises and libraries, everyone else gets the shitty castoffs...
Your user should be the admin, shouldn't be tied a profile etc. Linux is setup like more like this.
Yeah, it makes it more complex for certain network style things (you have 4 computers and want to sync between them), but it's trivial to work around.
The reason Windows is built like this is they develop first for enterprises and libraries, everyone else gets the shitty castoffs...
If you were a student in a library you’d know that’s a computer literacy issue.
> I really really dislike Windows when it hides paths, for example, "My Pictures". Where the heck is that?
Android has been copying Apple in that it now also has automagic folders and file managers. I also remember Google doing some idiotic A/B tests some moons ago of hiding the actual page result URL, it was one of the reasons (on top of search quality) that I stopped using it.
On Android you now have to go through multiple settings to enable explicit paths as if was somehow an 'advanced' feature to show an explicit file path.
I assume it is mostly driven by UX somehow it is now an agreed truth that file manager abstractions are too complex for the average user to grasp therefore must be vigourously hidden at all cost.
Android has been copying Apple in that it now also has automagic folders and file managers. I also remember Google doing some idiotic A/B tests some moons ago of hiding the actual page result URL, it was one of the reasons (on top of search quality) that I stopped using it.
On Android you now have to go through multiple settings to enable explicit paths as if was somehow an 'advanced' feature to show an explicit file path.
I assume it is mostly driven by UX somehow it is now an agreed truth that file manager abstractions are too complex for the average user to grasp therefore must be vigourously hidden at all cost.
The idea that Apple are experts in UI/UX has to stop. Nobody should be copying them.
That could apply to HN users as well; the idea that we are the general user population has to stop. Nobody outside of our bubble actually maintains their file hierarchy.
Or to people in different age brackets: for a few years now, people have finished uni while doing all their work on phones and tables without a desktop OS involved. No files, no desktop, no actual applications. We should stop copying desktop mentalities into modern workflows.
Or the other way around: nobody has desks or paper folders in file cabinets anymore, nobody needs to physically handle files and organise them, nor do their have boxes for physical mail that comes "in" and goes "out". We should stop copying legacy office concepts into software.
Or to people in different age brackets: for a few years now, people have finished uni while doing all their work on phones and tables without a desktop OS involved. No files, no desktop, no actual applications. We should stop copying desktop mentalities into modern workflows.
Or the other way around: nobody has desks or paper folders in file cabinets anymore, nobody needs to physically handle files and organise them, nor do their have boxes for physical mail that comes "in" and goes "out". We should stop copying legacy office concepts into software.
Nonsense. Are you not around 'normal' people? Any perfectly average Joe or Jane who uses Word or Excel as part of their job, or does a little drawing or gaming on the side, understands file structures, creates directories, organizes their docs.
They aren't morons. They don't necessarily understand all the complexities, like aliased folders, etc., but that's because they don't need to and so haven't tried.
They aren't morons. They don't necessarily understand all the complexities, like aliased folders, etc., but that's because they don't need to and so haven't tried.
A significant portion of people dump everything on their desktop.
But parent is right. Nobody is out here maintaining and pruning their beautiful directory hierarchy, and complaining about how messy applications make their home directory. Because nobody turns on “show hidden files”. Nobody cares.
But parent is right. Nobody is out here maintaining and pruning their beautiful directory hierarchy, and complaining about how messy applications make their home directory. Because nobody turns on “show hidden files”. Nobody cares.
Nobody is maintaining file hierachies, but everyone manages files, folders, whether they are explicitly exposed via file manager or not.
These are organizational concepts, not software concepts. People, even mobile uni students, have and must master them. As a result they get reinvented constantly in/as apps.
What people are mad about is people are told 'this is how you will organize' rather than just learning to organize. It is absolutely fucking stupid.
These are organizational concepts, not software concepts. People, even mobile uni students, have and must master them. As a result they get reinvented constantly in/as apps.
What people are mad about is people are told 'this is how you will organize' rather than just learning to organize. It is absolutely fucking stupid.
My mother doesn't understand what a window is, but has a complex file hierarchy with her own conventions.
Plenty of professional people have to maintain a file hierarchy despite their having no general interest in computers. I see it around me all the time.
I’ll take the bait: what do people do, then? Let’s say I agree with your point, genuinely: what are they doing instead?
Usually a combination of search, time-based ordering (like: "I did this thing a while ago, let me scroll back 1000 items") and some mental landmarking (tracking some stand-outs in a list to know the relative position of other items). Same thing with pictures/photos, you could have them in albums, or even smart albums with tags etc, but people tend to just have a running list of all pictures in chronological order.
Most systems have or used to have tagging functionality as well, but apparently that wasn't used all that much either for information classification and organisation.
Granted, I can't read minds and I don't know what everyone everywhere does, but I do see large scale changes in employee instructions for new hires, university hires and even in cross-org/education projects. For most young/new people, their phone was their first 'computer' and the 'default' environment, and a desktop is the anomaly. People looking up how to do things on ticktock is not a funny meme, it's reality and seriously tainting the knowledge of junior hires on the lower end jobs (like entry level service desk backoffice). Knowing where to find authoritative information, how to verify it, and how to use that as a reference to validate and find other information seems to be a foreign concept to some as well. Even something like a somewhat specific google search or wikipedia article and the references it can supply are not as normal as one might think, and the gap is getting bigger, not smaller.
Most systems have or used to have tagging functionality as well, but apparently that wasn't used all that much either for information classification and organisation.
Granted, I can't read minds and I don't know what everyone everywhere does, but I do see large scale changes in employee instructions for new hires, university hires and even in cross-org/education projects. For most young/new people, their phone was their first 'computer' and the 'default' environment, and a desktop is the anomaly. People looking up how to do things on ticktock is not a funny meme, it's reality and seriously tainting the knowledge of junior hires on the lower end jobs (like entry level service desk backoffice). Knowing where to find authoritative information, how to verify it, and how to use that as a reference to validate and find other information seems to be a foreign concept to some as well. Even something like a somewhat specific google search or wikipedia article and the references it can supply are not as normal as one might think, and the gap is getting bigger, not smaller.
They don’t bother and just use search: https://futurism.com/the-byte/gen-z-kids-file-systems
Wasn't that the point of Google Desktop? Irony is now that when speaking of Google OS search: I can't just search on Android, whereas iOS does it better. I miss that little context-aware Search icon on the menu bar in early Android. You could press it on the home screen to search the whole device, or in an app to search only that app, for eg. Gmail.
The tone of that article is so condescending. "Students act like they have a robot who will fetch them everything they want on demand" Yes! That's the point of a computer. Your machine should do work for you.
That's not actually the point of a computer. The point of computers was to accelerate and augment, not valet. Perhaps one day they will be smart enough to do that, but right now they are still just bicycles for the mind (as per an old computer ad).
Knowing how to store, organise and retrieve information, regardless of what system is used (including computers, file cabinets and archive rooms) is a skill that doesn't just magically appear in your brain, you have to actually observe, trial or classically learn about it to make use of it. It used to be through day-to-day tasks and a growth in responsibilities when growing up that people got that skill semi-automatically, but that is no longer the case.
Knowing how to store, organise and retrieve information, regardless of what system is used (including computers, file cabinets and archive rooms) is a skill that doesn't just magically appear in your brain, you have to actually observe, trial or classically learn about it to make use of it. It used to be through day-to-day tasks and a growth in responsibilities when growing up that people got that skill semi-automatically, but that is no longer the case.
Nothing, for the most part. Stuff that gets downloaded ends up in Downloads. Stuff that gets created in a local document-creating app ends up in Documents. Photos end up in My Pictures (or not even, as most people just leave them on their phone now and do cloud sync).
When they want to find stuff, they just search for it in the file picker. Or hopefully the file picker is just already in the right place. Often this UX is kinda bad, and it's hard to find things. Sometimes they give up, and either do without, or (if applicable) visit a website to just re-download whatever they can't find. Or they ask a technically-adept friend to help them.
Carefully creating a directory hierarchy and actively picking and choosing where to put things when downloading or saving files is just not a thing most people do.
When they want to find stuff, they just search for it in the file picker. Or hopefully the file picker is just already in the right place. Often this UX is kinda bad, and it's hard to find things. Sometimes they give up, and either do without, or (if applicable) visit a website to just re-download whatever they can't find. Or they ask a technically-adept friend to help them.
Carefully creating a directory hierarchy and actively picking and choosing where to put things when downloading or saving files is just not a thing most people do.
As far as I know, MacOS still has hierarchical folders, so "Nobody outside of our bubble actually maintains their file hierarchy" seems a little off.
So actually the problem is worse. Apple is schizophrenic about folders and leaves their users with the cognitive dissonance.
So actually the problem is worse. Apple is schizophrenic about folders and leaves their users with the cognitive dissonance.
What does Apple have to do with it? Their folder structure is fairly straightforward and transparent. Windows stuff is definitely the craziest I’ve encountered.
> Create a \Quicken directory in the root
Windows has an existing convention for this, like Linux's XDG. Imagine if you looked at your Linux filesystem root and saw /boot, /dev, /usr, /tmp, and /Quicken.
Windows has an existing convention for this, like Linux's XDG. Imagine if you looked at your Linux filesystem root and saw /boot, /dev, /usr, /tmp, and /Quicken.
I mean, honestly, I would be somewhere between "somewhat miffed" to "laughing out loud" if I saw /Quicken. It would not surprise me in the least to see something like Quicken completely violating standards and/or good taste.
You'd probably see a /Quicken/ as well as a file /Quicken-uninstall as a broken symlink to nowhere.
You'd probably see a /Quicken/ as well as a file /Quicken-uninstall as a broken symlink to nowhere.
This is what happens when you let non-technical people direct technical people. Really the only kind of person that should manage and direct a technical person is an even wiser technical person.
> I really really dislike Windows when it hides paths, for example, "My Pictures". Where the heck is that?
I helped my wife reorganize many hundreds of images. Finding out where they really were located and where they would actually end up was a tremendous chore, and locating them again has continued to be difficult.
Even doing a backup is stressful. Where are the files really located?
I helped my wife reorganize many hundreds of images. Finding out where they really were located and where they would actually end up was a tremendous chore, and locating them again has continued to be difficult.
Even doing a backup is stressful. Where are the files really located?
One reason for hiding paths is localisation. On modern Windows, the path will always be Pictures but it will be displayed with whatever the local translation is. On older versions (and, maybe, modern Windows on a machine upgraded from old versions?), the path was the localised name!
macOS is the same.
macOS is the same.
...and it's a mildy dumb idea
Apple may have started this. Back in the day Ipods would ingest mp3 files and hide them with hashed names in weird folders to make sure you can't give a copy to a neighbor.
Android is even worse: they create absurd views of the file system with entirely made-up structure... Well, Apple too, but I've been boycotting Apple since the 90s.
If you mess with group policy a little you'd know where the files are. Right click then "location" shows the directory. In "This PC" all the links are shortcuts. Profile issues are very common, that's why companies keep them in network locations (roaming, desktop, other folders). And for the network location, daily backups (or hourly depending on the setting) then roll version backup for disasters.
Also, don't use 14 years old EOL systems.
Also, don't use 14 years old EOL systems.
Same can be said about linux. where exactly is "~"? And which hard drive is /etc currently on? Sure, if you have setup the system yourself or know how to use linux commands, you can figure it out with ease, but so does on Windows (Right click -> properties).
I use both operating systems. I never have questions about my locations in Linux, but I constantly wonder about the abstractions Windows throws at me.
I've been using Linux for years and still don't know the difference between /etc and /var.
Not really. May Windows programs actively obfuscate certain paths. On linux, ~ is simply shorthand for your home directory. Note that knowing what particular block device is backing a given path is not at all the same thing as being able to see the path in the first place.
Beyond that, getting a full path is trivial (realpath) and figuring out which block device backs it is also quite straightforward (findmnt).
Beyond that, getting a full path is trivial (realpath) and figuring out which block device backs it is also quite straightforward (findmnt).
This is the first time I've heard of realpath, so it may be simple, but it's at least slightly obscure
What program does that?
Well for starters, the example in the post at the top of this page would presumably not have happened if the paths in Explorer hadn't been obfuscated. So that's one example.
There are also strange constructions that don't actually correspond to a single folder, or at least there were the last time I used Windows which was quite a few years ago now. A place that looked like a photo directory in Explorer, but actually it was a view of multiple directories and I don't know where stuff ended up if you copied into it.
There are also strange constructions that don't actually correspond to a single folder, or at least there were the last time I used Windows which was quite a few years ago now. A place that looked like a photo directory in Explorer, but actually it was a view of multiple directories and I don't know where stuff ended up if you copied into it.
> There are also strange constructions that don't actually correspond to a single folder
The Explorer does not browse the file system, it browses a graph of (COM) objects called the “shell namespace”[1], and has been since Windows 95. Notable examples of non-filesystem nodes include My Computer, Recycle Bin, Control Panel, and Network Neighbourhood; a more obscure one is the All Tasks (“god mode”) collection of all settings applets that exists so that the Start menu can search it[2].
I actually think it’s neat how seamlessly this approach has been integrated—we don’t usually think about it even though we actually encounter it all the time. Microsoft’s attempts to extend this to a full-blown object-oriented (Cairo) or relational (Longhorn) filing system were always so muddled I don’t really get what the actual idea was, though.
[1] https://learn.microsoft.com/windows/win32/shell/namespace-in...
[2] http://brandonlive.com/2010/01/04/the-so-called-god-mode/
The Explorer does not browse the file system, it browses a graph of (COM) objects called the “shell namespace”[1], and has been since Windows 95. Notable examples of non-filesystem nodes include My Computer, Recycle Bin, Control Panel, and Network Neighbourhood; a more obscure one is the All Tasks (“god mode”) collection of all settings applets that exists so that the Start menu can search it[2].
I actually think it’s neat how seamlessly this approach has been integrated—we don’t usually think about it even though we actually encounter it all the time. Microsoft’s attempts to extend this to a full-blown object-oriented (Cairo) or relational (Longhorn) filing system were always so muddled I don’t really get what the actual idea was, though.
[1] https://learn.microsoft.com/windows/win32/shell/namespace-in...
[2] http://brandonlive.com/2010/01/04/the-so-called-god-mode/
The advantage is unix systems are virtually always setup correctly - your home drive will be persistent storage on a network share somewhere.
Contrast to windows where your "Documents" folder might be getting backed up via one drive or roaming profile, or it might just be local disk on that machine.
In my experience for a corporate windows environment its best to map a H: drive to a network home drive share and get users to always save in there - if its not mapped it means you are probably on misconfigured host.
Contrast to windows where your "Documents" folder might be getting backed up via one drive or roaming profile, or it might just be local disk on that machine.
In my experience for a corporate windows environment its best to map a H: drive to a network home drive share and get users to always save in there - if its not mapped it means you are probably on misconfigured host.
The only good way to handle user data like photos is the way iOS does it. Strictly one place for images. If there is a path then the user doesn’t see it because they don’t need to see it. The storage and directory structure is an implementation detail.
The second best is a fully manual directory structure with no “surface” added. But this is not nearly as good for the average user.
By far the worst one is what you get when you (correctly) like Microsoft realize you are in the second category but you’d like to be in the first. The end result is an annoying middle ground that has plagued windows for a long time now. They probably (incorrectly) assumed they could get to the iOS situation eventually.
Separating the application and its binaries isn’t a bad idea though. I don’t want to back up applications, just their data, for example. And I want to be able to have different permissions for the app binaries and elsewhere. So programs\Quicken and data\Quicken would be better than the other way around. And this isn’t far from what windows does. If I create an app I put the user data in %appdata%\myprogram. The folder is annoyingly hard to find though but that’s more an explorer UX issue than a problem with how the files are stored.
The second best is a fully manual directory structure with no “surface” added. But this is not nearly as good for the average user.
By far the worst one is what you get when you (correctly) like Microsoft realize you are in the second category but you’d like to be in the first. The end result is an annoying middle ground that has plagued windows for a long time now. They probably (incorrectly) assumed they could get to the iOS situation eventually.
Separating the application and its binaries isn’t a bad idea though. I don’t want to back up applications, just their data, for example. And I want to be able to have different permissions for the app binaries and elsewhere. So programs\Quicken and data\Quicken would be better than the other way around. And this isn’t far from what windows does. If I create an app I put the user data in %appdata%\myprogram. The folder is annoyingly hard to find though but that’s more an explorer UX issue than a problem with how the files are stored.
I have a folder on my computer called "Graduate School". Inside are subfolders for each of the classes I'm taking. Inside these and further subfolders are files such as:
• Videos I need to watch for class.
• PDFs I need to read for class.
• Word documents I am writing for class.
• Photos, videos, and audio recordings I will use to write papers for class.
The "iOS model" would have me segment all of this data by file type. The PDF from New York State on K-12 educational standards would be next to my 2021 tax returns. My paper on single-sex schools would be next to the technical documentation for a web app I'm developing. This would be terrible.
Files need to be organized by purpose, not file type. I know what my files are for. My computer does not.
This is also a major reason why I hate my iPhone.
• Videos I need to watch for class.
• PDFs I need to read for class.
• Word documents I am writing for class.
• Photos, videos, and audio recordings I will use to write papers for class.
The "iOS model" would have me segment all of this data by file type. The PDF from New York State on K-12 educational standards would be next to my 2021 tax returns. My paper on single-sex schools would be next to the technical documentation for a web app I'm developing. This would be terrible.
Files need to be organized by purpose, not file type. I know what my files are for. My computer does not.
This is also a major reason why I hate my iPhone.
What “iOS model” are you thinking about? iOS introduced a slightly more normal file structure (from a user perspective) with the Files app. I can create folders with My Documents similar to how I might on a Mac or PC. It’s still a bit odd, as some appears synced to iCloud by default (iCloud Drive) while some is not (On my iDevice). And obv limited by single-user constraints.
All that said, I do agree with the general premise that files should be organized in reasonable places by default and users should be able to override that should they see the need.
All that said, I do agree with the general premise that files should be organized in reasonable places by default and users should be able to override that should they see the need.
The Files app is a huge improvement, but it doesn't integrate into other apps very well. For example, if I play an audio recording, playback happens within the files app, so I can't browse through other documents at the same time. I could import the audio file into e.g. VLC, but now I'm copying it into a new location.
Contrast this with traditional OS X. I can open a file in any app, but the file continues to live in Finder. In a way, you could say that the Mac puts files first in the way that iOS puts apps first. An app is just a tool, and could be used for anything: I write papers for school and documentation for work and poetry for pleasure. A file, on the other hand, has a distinct purpose.
Contrast this with traditional OS X. I can open a file in any app, but the file continues to live in Finder. In a way, you could say that the Mac puts files first in the way that iOS puts apps first. An app is just a tool, and could be used for anything: I write papers for school and documentation for work and poetry for pleasure. A file, on the other hand, has a distinct purpose.
Totally agree on that point - the relationship between apps and files is really odd in iOS for anybody who grew up on PCs/Macs. I’ve mostly given up trying to manage files and just trust (Hope? Wish?) iOS to do the right thing. And it usually does, but I’m not creating content or doing work, just consuming.
Yeah, I too organize my files by subject, not file type. The latter is crazy.
Why not just use metadata? Directories are a workaround for the way that filesystems were designed. Using keywords is much more logical, and indexing file metadata can allow that.
To be clear, I'm not necessarily arguing for directories or against metadata. I just think that grouping by file type is mostly bad.
On a phone, just 1 category for images (plus of course indexing by geography, time) is more than enough. For a PC where I create things I’d probably want more options too. But handling files and directories I do because I have to not because I want to. To begin with a directory structure just allows organizing by one category (e.g can’t have documents both organized topic then year and year then topic.).
I’m not saying the final solution to data organization is just “all Images in one directory”. The solution is one where you don’t worry about directories and still easily find and group the data you need.
Windows had grand plans for this that were scrapped. Understandably, but also sadly.
I’m not saying the final solution to data organization is just “all Images in one directory”. The solution is one where you don’t worry about directories and still easily find and group the data you need.
Windows had grand plans for this that were scrapped. Understandably, but also sadly.
> But handling files and directories I do because I have to not because I want to.
Oh, I absolutely agree! But as I said, I know what my files are for, and my computer does not. So until we get some incredible AI that not only understands the context of every file but can also use that context to make perfect organizational decisions, I expect to be the one responsible for grouping my data.
To be clear, I don't think directory hierarchies are necessarily the be-all end-all of digital organization. For example, I like the idea of organizing based on tags, because a lot of documents rightly belong in more than one category. However, I expect I'll need to be the one who sets the tags.
iOS's solution does work better on mobile than on desktop (and iPad), although I do run into problems on my iPhone.
Oh, I absolutely agree! But as I said, I know what my files are for, and my computer does not. So until we get some incredible AI that not only understands the context of every file but can also use that context to make perfect organizational decisions, I expect to be the one responsible for grouping my data.
To be clear, I don't think directory hierarchies are necessarily the be-all end-all of digital organization. For example, I like the idea of organizing based on tags, because a lot of documents rightly belong in more than one category. However, I expect I'll need to be the one who sets the tags.
iOS's solution does work better on mobile than on desktop (and iPad), although I do run into problems on my iPhone.
What a restricted world where the os caters to the poorly educated user. Folders should be able to handle all file types.
Tags are just a superior way of accessing anything. The issue is that the shift from a directory structure based world to a tags based world isn't easy. I'm not saying "Desktop OSes should stop using paths", I'm saying "In the future, hopefully we won't need paths (as much)".
And yes, of course no one should be stopped from having one area where they have a word document, six images and a text file. OF COURSE. But whether that's a directory or not isn't what's interesting. The interesting part is that I can group them together logically, find and use them easily etc.
And yes, of course no one should be stopped from having one area where they have a word document, six images and a text file. OF COURSE. But whether that's a directory or not isn't what's interesting. The interesting part is that I can group them together logically, find and use them easily etc.
How does Apple handle app-specific file formats like game levels, nonstandard file formats like .spc and .psf and SQLite databases the OS can't be expected to know the existence of, and the separation between local, synced, and cloud-only files?
Give TestDisk a try. Years ago I have been able to use it to recover almost all files from a unreadable disk coming fom a RAID1 mirror gone bonkers due to a faulty controller.
https://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk
edit: oh, I just read that you mentioned TestDisk. Yes, it can recover the directory structure, at least it did in my case. After using it you will likely see that some files have been duplicated with a suffix added, like document.doc and document.doc.xyz (can't recall the exact suffix) in the same directory. In that case you need to check which file has been fully recovered, and rename it if needed.
https://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk
edit: oh, I just read that you mentioned TestDisk. Yes, it can recover the directory structure, at least it did in my case. After using it you will likely see that some files have been duplicated with a suffix added, like document.doc and document.doc.xyz (can't recall the exact suffix) in the same directory. In that case you need to check which file has been fully recovered, and rename it if needed.
TestDisk is a miraculous tool !
TestDisk is cli-only. I decided to have a look at PhotoRec (created by the same folks as TestDisk). It has a handy QT gui. Unfortunately, the only option is to scan the disk for selected file types and dump them all into a chosen location. This loses folder structure, so years of files will all get blended. I'd prefer an undelete option that can target "C:\Users\TEMP\Documents" etc, but this might be asking too much. Gonna try TestDisk next..
Testdisk is great when you need to recover a whole partition, but not nearly as capable and advanced when it comes to recovering deleted files.
You'll do much better with purpose-build Windows undelete utilities. I've had good luck with freeundelete:
https://www.officerecovery.com/freeundelete/
You'll do much better with purpose-build Windows undelete utilities. I've had good luck with freeundelete:
https://www.officerecovery.com/freeundelete/
Testdisk is essentially about partitions/volumes.
Photorec is about files only.
They are both vey good at what they are supposed to do, but in your case Testdisk is not suited and Photorec represents a last attempt as recovered files are carved, basically you will lose not only directory structures, but also filenames and metadata.
A good GUI tool (not of the "one click" type, it needs some learning to use it) is DMDE:
https://dmde.com/
Photorec is about files only.
They are both vey good at what they are supposed to do, but in your case Testdisk is not suited and Photorec represents a last attempt as recovered files are carved, basically you will lose not only directory structures, but also filenames and metadata.
A good GUI tool (not of the "one click" type, it needs some learning to use it) is DMDE:
https://dmde.com/
Recuva has worked well for me in the past, it has a "Restore folder structure" option in the settings.
https://www.ccleaner.com/recuva
https://www.ccleaner.com/recuva
I would suggest to new people that you should make a backup raw disk image before you do any of these recovery methods if the death of your drive is imminent :) . If you're just trying. If you just accidently deleted a file then you'll probably be okay :) . ddrescue is pretty good at making backup images where dd will give up.
[deleted]
Was the profile actually corrupted or was that their interpretation? Losing connection to an online Microsoft account can also result in a user ending up with a temporary account.
(My story: just last week I fixed a temporary profile issue for an acquaintance and all that had happened was that Windows messed up the connection with her online Microsoft account. After signing out and in again, it worked fine. I was surprised at first because I wasn't aware that such a thing as temporary profiles existed. It became clear that she was working on a wrong profile once I opened a shell and the path before the prompt said "c:\users\temp".)
There are definitely warnings that any work/data stored in the temporary profile would be lost, so maybe they did not take these seriously enough.
The only thing that I actually find absolutely unforgivable is that the temporary profile is named after her normal account. Creating temporary accounts with ample warnings, yeah, not great. Pretending to be the profile of the user...? Nope
(My story: just last week I fixed a temporary profile issue for an acquaintance and all that had happened was that Windows messed up the connection with her online Microsoft account. After signing out and in again, it worked fine. I was surprised at first because I wasn't aware that such a thing as temporary profiles existed. It became clear that she was working on a wrong profile once I opened a shell and the path before the prompt said "c:\users\temp".)
There are definitely warnings that any work/data stored in the temporary profile would be lost, so maybe they did not take these seriously enough.
The only thing that I actually find absolutely unforgivable is that the temporary profile is named after her normal account. Creating temporary accounts with ample warnings, yeah, not great. Pretending to be the profile of the user...? Nope
The temporary profile doesn't really pretend to be the user, but Explorer's default (which I hate) is to obscure the full path, "C:\Users\TEMP" and just show the username. You have to hit "CTRL + l" to see the actual path. You can't even navigate 'up' a directory to see where you are, and if you right-click in that directory there is no "Properties". I tried talking them through this on the phone before they shut the computer off. It was basically impossible to figure out over the phone. This type of "magic" bullshit really irritates me.
> This type of "magic" bullshit really irritates me.
Microsoft seems to have tried to get rid of outmoded notions such as directories, without ever articulating what new model they favoured. So you get these privileged spaces (I have no better word) like "Documents". They've tried to make Explorer as invisible as possible.
But they never finished the job! So you end up with a mess of "AppData" (apparently a normal directory) and "Application Data" (not accessible). I presume the first is an alias for the second; but the second should be invisible if it's not accessible (there are other directories like this).
This started with Win7. Then they stopped abruptly, but never reverted these aborted changes. It's as if there's nobody in charge. My guess is that forcing Microsoft accounts, "instrumentation", and failed attempts to hegemonize mobile were prioritized over fixing what they'd broken.
NT4 was a reasonable OS, with a rotten commandline. Nothing they've shipped since has come close.
Microsoft seems to have tried to get rid of outmoded notions such as directories, without ever articulating what new model they favoured. So you get these privileged spaces (I have no better word) like "Documents". They've tried to make Explorer as invisible as possible.
But they never finished the job! So you end up with a mess of "AppData" (apparently a normal directory) and "Application Data" (not accessible). I presume the first is an alias for the second; but the second should be invisible if it's not accessible (there are other directories like this).
This started with Win7. Then they stopped abruptly, but never reverted these aborted changes. It's as if there's nobody in charge. My guess is that forcing Microsoft accounts, "instrumentation", and failed attempts to hegemonize mobile were prioritized over fixing what they'd broken.
NT4 was a reasonable OS, with a rotten commandline. Nothing they've shipped since has come close.
It’s like how Windows seems to have at least four different control panels now. There’s whatever comes up if you search for, say, “user accounts”. There’s the actual Control Panel. There’s MMC. And there’s the group policy editor. (Maybe that last one gets a pass.)
And all of these partially duplicate functionality. Want to change the password of a different user account? You can’t do it from the user account panel - you can only do it from the other user account panel.
And all of these partially duplicate functionality. Want to change the password of a different user account? You can’t do it from the user account panel - you can only do it from the other user account panel.
And there’s the group policy editor. (Maybe that last one gets a pass.)
I've always joked that the gpedit.msc is where the real settings are. It's one of the pieces that has stayed the same (and even been added to) while all the other parts are gradually dumbed-down and becoming less useful.
I've always joked that the gpedit.msc is where the real settings are. It's one of the pieces that has stayed the same (and even been added to) while all the other parts are gradually dumbed-down and becoming less useful.
Interestingly that's the one they decided to take away from the vast majority of their users. Just because Windows users paid for it doesn't mean it's not Microsoft's computer and MS doesn't want users messing with their stuff.
Same half baked changes. It was too time consuming to change everything, so they only changed surface level stuff that ‘normal’ users need.
MMC and Group policy do way more than user accounts.
But yes it is a mess and only as an IT person I can somewhat make sense of when to use the modern Settings - Accounts, Control Panel users, MMC or sysdm.cpl
But yes it is a mess and only as an IT person I can somewhat make sense of when to use the modern Settings - Accounts, Control Panel users, MMC or sysdm.cpl
"Application Data" and "Program Files" were chosen for Windows 95 as a safety valve for programs that were upgraded to work with long files but might still be making assumptions such as filenames won't have a space. It would cause them to fail early so those bugs could be fixed.
But it also made the 250 character path limit much easier to reach. When the NT unification happened with 2000/XP the shorter AppData was used with "Application Data" remaining as a junction point to the roaming profile for compatibility.
But it also made the 250 character path limit much easier to reach. When the NT unification happened with 2000/XP the shorter AppData was used with "Application Data" remaining as a junction point to the roaming profile for compatibility.
> but the second should be invisible if it's not accessible
It is invisible unless you decided to enable "Show hidden and system files".
Should Explorer have three modes, "no hidden", "show hidden and system but only some", "show all files"?
Who would complain if they would make it like that?
It is invisible unless you decided to enable "Show hidden and system files".
Should Explorer have three modes, "no hidden", "show hidden and system but only some", "show all files"?
Who would complain if they would make it like that?
Ah, that'll be it.
Thing is, I don't want any hidden files, ever. I've been driving with "Show hidden and system files" set for 20 years. It's just about the first setting I change on a new Windows system.
Thing is, I don't want any hidden files, ever. I've been driving with "Show hidden and system files" set for 20 years. It's just about the first setting I change on a new Windows system.
ApplicationData can store data shared by all users for an application to avoid duplicating for each user in their app data and such
[deleted]
> Losing connection to an online Microsoft account can also result in a user ending up with a temporary account.
What the fuck?!
So it all but forces you to link your identity to something Microsoft owns... just to refuse your identity back and throwing you into some unrecognizable woods if Microsoft fails to validate it.
I guess failing to log you on your own computer because MS is down would enrage people. So it's better to gaslight them until they give up.
What the fuck?!
So it all but forces you to link your identity to something Microsoft owns... just to refuse your identity back and throwing you into some unrecognizable woods if Microsoft fails to validate it.
I guess failing to log you on your own computer because MS is down would enrage people. So it's better to gaslight them until they give up.
Lol this is why i have a reminder at the end of every month to log in to some critical but not often used accounts just to make sure it's still there lol. I lost a yahoo account after they started their use it or lose it approach.
> So it all but forces you to link your identity to something Microsoft owns...
If Microsoft has full access to your hard drive and can make changes to your system and files any time they want they own a lot more than your user profile. It's their system. They are the admin, and you are a peasant and the extent of your access to your(?) data and Microsoft's system can be limited or revoked at any time.
If Microsoft has full access to your hard drive and can make changes to your system and files any time they want they own a lot more than your user profile. It's their system. They are the admin, and you are a peasant and the extent of your access to your(?) data and Microsoft's system can be limited or revoked at any time.
The exact same thing can be said of Debian maintainers, Ubuntu maintainers, etc. They probably “own” as many servers as Microsoft.
The real-world number of linux admins who inspect all packages before applying them is basically zero. Most Linux/BSD systems likely have unattended upgrades enabled by default.
The real-world number of linux admins who inspect all packages before applying them is basically zero. Most Linux/BSD systems likely have unattended upgrades enabled by default.
That literally isn't anything. You're making up a situation that isn't a thing.
Creating an account allows to choose between using a Microsoft account or creating a local account.
Not on modern Windows 11, though you can still do so by saying you use the computer professionally, entering bad credentials in the MS login and then clicking the "local account" button. Who knows how long that'll keep working, though.
If you click "Domain join instead" on the Azure AD login screen it gives up and asks you to make a local account, which you can then use to join the domain once you get to the desktop.
Domain joining from setup is impossible (it requires a reboot, and then group policy could push something that breaks the rest of the out-of-box experience), so it's safe to assume that will always be there (unless they do a major change to how AD joining works, but they probably won't since they consider it "legacy").
Domain joining from setup is impossible (it requires a reboot, and then group policy could push something that breaks the rest of the out-of-box experience), so it's safe to assume that will always be there (unless they do a major change to how AD joining works, but they probably won't since they consider it "legacy").
On Pro you can.
https://imgur.com/a/TXNtJHy
Select "Join a domain/corparete" network and there is a button for offline account.
https://imgur.com/a/TXNtJHy
Select "Join a domain/corparete" network and there is a button for offline account.
Not any more. You can do it if you are completely offline during initial setup, but if you do the first network setup it won't let you continue until you set up an MS account. I'm sure 11 does the same thing.
On Pro you can.
https://imgur.com/a/TXNtJHy
Select "Join a domain/corparete" network and there is a button for offline account.
https://imgur.com/a/TXNtJHy
Select "Join a domain/corparete" network and there is a button for offline account.
Why do people put up with this? Just use linux. KDE is amazing these days.
People don't tend to care about operating systems, but they do tend to care about applications.
Its a one-time thing on setup. Yes its dumb for sure.
"Allows you to choose" is absolutely the wrong way to describe it.
But yes, if you get an script with the set of actions that make local accounts possible, you can replicate them.
But yes, if you get an script with the set of actions that make local accounts possible, you can replicate them.
It's easy to miss but it is/was absolutely possible to decline creating a Microsoft account when installing Windows 10.
Original windows 10 offered it as an option.
But the current versions of windows 10 only offer that if you don't have internet (no ethernet cable in, and answered "I don't have a wifi" in the screen before user creation), if you connected to the wifi it won't show the option for local account.
But the current versions of windows 10 only offer that if you don't have internet (no ethernet cable in, and answered "I don't have a wifi" in the screen before user creation), if you connected to the wifi it won't show the option for local account.
You can decline to create a Microsoft account but it will prompt you to make one again every time you install updates and there’s only an option to “remind me later”
Long ago it was always the advice to never use an odd numbered windows release.
Seems like it still holds!
Seems like it still holds!
But doesn't windows later prompt you to migrate to a Microsoft account?
And there's this nagging alert that keeps popping up:
"Microsoft account problem."
"We need to fix your microsoft account. (Most likely your password changed). Select here to fix it in shared experiences settings."
Which I assume most novice users would obey.
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/seeing...
And there's this nagging alert that keeps popping up:
"Microsoft account problem."
"We need to fix your microsoft account. (Most likely your password changed). Select here to fix it in shared experiences settings."
Which I assume most novice users would obey.
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/seeing...
Also, in the latest versions of the windows 11 install or OEM first boot setups, the only way you can get the local account option is to kill every network connection. The local account option is hidden otherwise.
My ritual for family machine setup is locate wifi kill switch-> if not available, announce wireless going down-> kill network->setup to local account->reenable network
It's patently infuriating. Throw in where I've had family members set up Microsoft accounts with only 1 form of auth (Phone number), change that, them get locked out of their Microsft account for a month because of Microsoft's daft policies. Though I didn't set up that machine. It boggles the mind that Microsoft's default flow would run the risk of such an outcome.
My ritual for family machine setup is locate wifi kill switch-> if not available, announce wireless going down-> kill network->setup to local account->reenable network
It's patently infuriating. Throw in where I've had family members set up Microsoft accounts with only 1 form of auth (Phone number), change that, them get locked out of their Microsft account for a month because of Microsoft's daft policies. Though I didn't set up that machine. It boggles the mind that Microsoft's default flow would run the risk of such an outcome.
Alternatively you can enter [email protected] as the username and a random password, which causes the login to fail, allowing local account setup [1].
[1]: https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-11/269419/tip-set-u...
[1]: https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-11/269419/tip-set-u...
...That is horrifying.
No we won't just add a "No thanks" button, but we'll set up an undocumented magic username to serve the same purpose?
And to make it even more nightmarish, where is that check? Is it extractable from the installer binary? Or is it some weird exception case implemented in server code only viewable by microsoft?
For that matter, who owns thankyou.com? Is there some unfortunate sod with [email protected] as an email address?
There is so much wrong with this. I can't even...
No we won't just add a "No thanks" button, but we'll set up an undocumented magic username to serve the same purpose?
And to make it even more nightmarish, where is that check? Is it extractable from the installer binary? Or is it some weird exception case implemented in server code only viewable by microsoft?
For that matter, who owns thankyou.com? Is there some unfortunate sod with [email protected] as an email address?
There is so much wrong with this. I can't even...
You're thinking this through much more than Microsoft ever did. The OP was only saying to pretend that you can't log into an existing account.
That doesn't fix the issue. They are going dark patterm, which is the bloody issue.
There is nothing about that setup that isn't an exercise in plausibly deniable forced on-ramping. No it isn't a best practice to create the illusion you can't use an operating system without agreeing to a cloud services contract.
That's BS, and should be called out as such. UX is trying to gaslight the non-technical into services they don't need, and I'm willing to go out on a limb that everyone in the market is trying to converge on that exact practice.
There is nothing about that setup that isn't an exercise in plausibly deniable forced on-ramping. No it isn't a best practice to create the illusion you can't use an operating system without agreeing to a cloud services contract.
That's BS, and should be called out as such. UX is trying to gaslight the non-technical into services they don't need, and I'm willing to go out on a limb that everyone in the market is trying to converge on that exact practice.
>in the latest versions of the windows 11 install or OEM first boot setups, the only way you can get the local account option is to kill every network connection.
And when you did, the next step required you to first select "I don't have internet" then next be shown some embarassing pseudo-technical propaganda appealing to your FOMO, to provide one full page of discouragement before you agree to "continue with limited setup" if you want to actually have a full regular local account. And that illusion is maintained further into the user experience, where status will sometimes be reported as "setup incomplete".
With the Sept 2022 release of W11 you can't even do that any more.
When you reach this point and there is no longer the option to admit your poor soul has no internet, the incantation here is to hit Shift+F10 which opens a command prompt. Click in the CMD window to make it respond to your keyboard then oobe\bypassnro. Reboots and reverts to previous "I don't have internet" option.
Sheesh.
And when you did, the next step required you to first select "I don't have internet" then next be shown some embarassing pseudo-technical propaganda appealing to your FOMO, to provide one full page of discouragement before you agree to "continue with limited setup" if you want to actually have a full regular local account. And that illusion is maintained further into the user experience, where status will sometimes be reported as "setup incomplete".
With the Sept 2022 release of W11 you can't even do that any more.
When you reach this point and there is no longer the option to admit your poor soul has no internet, the incantation here is to hit Shift+F10 which opens a command prompt. Click in the CMD window to make it respond to your keyboard then oobe\bypassnro. Reboots and reverts to previous "I don't have internet" option.
Sheesh.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but nothing at the link you posted (that I could see) says that that message would migrate a local account to an online one.
Ok, fair enough. So what does it mean? This is seen on local Windows accounts, but it's referring to Microsoft accounts. Sure looks like an attempt to "join" the two.
I could log into my latest Windows 11 developer preview update computer offline or online or I can lose connection to the internet while I'm logged in and literally none of this happens. Everything just always works.
> Was the profile actually corrupted
How do you diagnose a corrupt profile? What causes corruption? Is there some diagnostic I can run that will detect and repair corruption before it's too late?
How do you diagnose a corrupt profile? What causes corruption? Is there some diagnostic I can run that will detect and repair corruption before it's too late?
^ yeah, this. Since the user doesn't create their own profile, and it's all arcane internal windows crap, why can't it be a bit more helpful than "Woopsie, you're in a temporary profile now! Normal rules do not apply." Like, "Do you want Windows to create a new profile and try to migrate your data to it?"
>Losing connection to an online Microsoft account can also result in a user ending up with a temporary account.
Not on Windows 7
Not on Windows 7
This unfortunately highlights a key forensics requirement: don't touch the computer.
Don't turn it on, don't turn it off, don't login/logout. Ideally keep the wifi router turned on, but disconnect it from upstream internet.
It's very hard to get people to follow this of course but it's critical, especially now FDE is becoming more common. In the extreme case you can leave it on until you can cause an exploit remotely or are ready to immerse it in liquid nitrogen and extract the FDE keys from RAM. There are tools (wiebetech.com) for moving plugged in computers onto battery power if you can't work in situ or can't risk a grid outage.
Don't turn it on, don't turn it off, don't login/logout. Ideally keep the wifi router turned on, but disconnect it from upstream internet.
It's very hard to get people to follow this of course but it's critical, especially now FDE is becoming more common. In the extreme case you can leave it on until you can cause an exploit remotely or are ready to immerse it in liquid nitrogen and extract the FDE keys from RAM. There are tools (wiebetech.com) for moving plugged in computers onto battery power if you can't work in situ or can't risk a grid outage.
This. To be honest, I think it's a miracle that my machine boots at all. Most people take it for granted, but I cherish each day it boots and I don't have to do a clean install because something breaks (typically some bizarre edge case scenario unique to Windows that only breaks on my machine). There is the old saying: if it works, don't try to fix it.
> It's very hard to get people to follow this of course but it's critical
We've spent decades telling users that the miracle fix for all their technology problems is turning your device off and on again. That's going to a long time to undo.
We've spent decades telling users that the miracle fix for all their technology problems is turning your device off and on again. That's going to a long time to undo.
You can't ask people to treat every "user can't find file" situation as a forensic investigation.
This is easy to triage!
Q1 - Would you be very very upset if all the data on your computer was lost Y/N Q2 - Do you have backups of this data? (The answer is invariably No.) Q3 - Is your computer behaving strangely? Do you have a spidey sense of doom which caused you to contact me? Y/N
At which point it should be clear that further unqualified FA&FO is a bad idea.
Q1 - Would you be very very upset if all the data on your computer was lost Y/N Q2 - Do you have backups of this data? (The answer is invariably No.) Q3 - Is your computer behaving strangely? Do you have a spidey sense of doom which caused you to contact me? Y/N
At which point it should be clear that further unqualified FA&FO is a bad idea.
Not that this fixes your immediate problem but just an FYI for anyone who might be in a similar situation in the future, in the 10+ years I've been in IT I've used the free ForensIT Profwiz, Transwiz and Defprof for any of these weird profile issues with success.
Not affiliated in any way, just a sporadic user.
https://www.forensit.com/
Not affiliated in any way, just a sporadic user.
https://www.forensit.com/
Back when I did Windows work I used their tools too, great quality!
This is why my work documents and data are always on a second drive (or partition if hardware is limited). I haven't used the default Windows folders for years and it's only some software creating folders under "My Documents" that I just ignore. You never know when you'll have to reformat the main Windows drive. It also proved convenient when I changed computers as I just plugged in the data drive I had always been using, and all my familiar documents are there. Of course, there's also the cloud to backup the more important stuff.
That's why on linux you can mount your home directory to a separate partition. You can reinstall the OS but still keep all your files and settings intact. And even better, it's the default location like "My Documents" so the OS and apps know where to look for things.
How do so many people commenting on this seem to universally agree about being confused by Windows file structure?
Like, look
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/usmt/us...
Those are the path variables
Ez
But logically? How hard is c:\users\username\whatever?
Are you all so so so into Linux that you are just utterly flabbergasted by the simplicity of Windows?
All operating systems hide hidden paths also. You can enable showing hidden paths. You should just know where programdata is where appdata is... The difference between local and roaming and locallow... I mean cmon nerds! Get with it!
On Linux or Mac. Tell me. Where is Documents? Where is Pictures? Where is applications? Is Documents in ~/Home/Documents? Where is that if I'm not the current user? Why is Applications on Mac in my home folder different than the Applications in Macintosh HD/Applications? Why can I Macintosh HD/Volumes/Macintosh HD/Volumes/? Windows is somehow the insane one? Windows makes sense!
Instead of all agreeing that you're confused by something that you should be an expert in at this point if you are working in the computer space at all... Maybe you should take some time out to actually brush up on some skills that could be useful that you could help family members with. Because bitching around the sewing circle isn't going to inspire confidence and it's not going to help your case in any sort of way that you would think if you actually want to change or improve the situation of file system hierarchy.
Remember, we are the nerds that know everything! Act like it! If Windows is so beneath you; then master it completely! Don't just ignore it because you think you're so much better than it. I see so many comments and threads on hacker News constantly where people are just like "I haven't touched windows in 15 years and then I had to touch it last week and oh my God this and that and this and that." And to me that is just the sign of someone who gave up.
Like, look
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/usmt/us...
Those are the path variables
Ez
But logically? How hard is c:\users\username\whatever?
Are you all so so so into Linux that you are just utterly flabbergasted by the simplicity of Windows?
All operating systems hide hidden paths also. You can enable showing hidden paths. You should just know where programdata is where appdata is... The difference between local and roaming and locallow... I mean cmon nerds! Get with it!
On Linux or Mac. Tell me. Where is Documents? Where is Pictures? Where is applications? Is Documents in ~/Home/Documents? Where is that if I'm not the current user? Why is Applications on Mac in my home folder different than the Applications in Macintosh HD/Applications? Why can I Macintosh HD/Volumes/Macintosh HD/Volumes/? Windows is somehow the insane one? Windows makes sense!
Instead of all agreeing that you're confused by something that you should be an expert in at this point if you are working in the computer space at all... Maybe you should take some time out to actually brush up on some skills that could be useful that you could help family members with. Because bitching around the sewing circle isn't going to inspire confidence and it's not going to help your case in any sort of way that you would think if you actually want to change or improve the situation of file system hierarchy.
Remember, we are the nerds that know everything! Act like it! If Windows is so beneath you; then master it completely! Don't just ignore it because you think you're so much better than it. I see so many comments and threads on hacker News constantly where people are just like "I haven't touched windows in 15 years and then I had to touch it last week and oh my God this and that and this and that." And to me that is just the sign of someone who gave up.
> How hard is c:\users\username\whatever?
Not hard at all. But Windows really, really goes out of its way to fight me using that.
> You can enable showing hidden paths. You should just know where programdata is where appdata is...
Yeah, because the onboarding tutorial for new accounts explains all that. Not.
Some of us do know this stuff, and we can sort of understand why Microsoft made the decisions they did (they make sense, or at least less nonsense, in large corporate environments of Word users).
But they are still a nasty product of the "reach for abstraction" impulse of programmers with not enough experience to know that they're working outside their zone of mastery.
Not hard at all. But Windows really, really goes out of its way to fight me using that.
> You can enable showing hidden paths. You should just know where programdata is where appdata is...
Yeah, because the onboarding tutorial for new accounts explains all that. Not.
Some of us do know this stuff, and we can sort of understand why Microsoft made the decisions they did (they make sense, or at least less nonsense, in large corporate environments of Word users).
But they are still a nasty product of the "reach for abstraction" impulse of programmers with not enough experience to know that they're working outside their zone of mastery.
This. So. Much. This.
Never ever store valuable files on those "virtual folders" on Windows: My Documents, My Pictures etc. Avoid storing valuable files in the user profile.
Windows will get confused and you might lose data.
This is especially true if you use a local language in windows.
Yeah don't store things in those virtual folders... Store them in c:\users\username\documents instead. Much safer.
People often forget what the transition was like from office machines, manual spreadsheets, and filing cabinets to having a single PC that could replace these for you if you really try.
But you really have to try and put in some effort here.
Without taking action to have it your way, you'll be left to the default approach which Microsoft has molded for users who may never grasp filing systems at all, which is simultaneously backward-compatible with DOS. And then third-party software which sometimes tries to better cope by having their own layer of obscurity which can help your workflow but the filing can end up even more ugly.
But the filing cabinet never was an office machine anyway, and as far as automatic, I would much rather have a real intelligent secretary file & retrieve my folders than I would a machine.
And without a secretary I figure I'm going to have to put in some effort my dang self, and get the most out of the electronic filing at my fingertips.
The C: volume containing DOS or Windows was subject to the most frequent defects or corruption and could be considered the most risky place to put any of your valuable data if you could help it.
But regular PCs for office or home were supplied with only one partition on their HDD so there was no separate volume that could be dedicated exclusively for storage. The highest-reliablity upgrade was having a second hard drive dedicated for storage, but naturally you had to work from a blank slate and label all the folders yourself just like a secretary would do. Further you need to be very vigilant and direct any valuable data from all Windows or third-party apps to your dedicated folders every time. However nobody actually needed this drive space at the beginning since that's when there's always plenty of room on C:.
But it was worth it.
Be your own secretary.
Yes the C: drive was still a PITA to restore but it was good to maintain readiness to Format C: at any time without losing any valuable data at all.
Then restoring only the system (Windows, installed apps, and settings) quickly from backup, or alternatively reinstalling them in the previously optimized repeatable full recovery procedure. Always install programs to C: right along with Windows. To a newer, faster, or bigger HDD whenever you felt like it. The C: drive was like the office machine substitute, where you need to be able to change some of the things on your desktop or even get a whole new desk from time to time, but you wouldn't want to handle your company files and their filing system as disposably as you would a broken office machine.
And the second HDD volume was the filing cabinet substitute, which could physically be moved or copied and placed into a different office without affecting the desk or desktop that generated the data.
Now this was before the Documents And Settings folder appeared. Which pushed the mainstream in the opposite direction, placing your valuable data by default into folders automatically labeled and tucked away largely within deeply nested trees within Windows' increasing number of self-created folders, and completely downplaying any underlying need to know the filing system at all. Instead of all being in one filing cabinet, your data became a "part" of Windows and it became acceptable for your files to be less accessible to your fingertips alone. Not without Windows and each App in question being there in perfect working order. And with temporary files from the internet growing right there in the same folders, rendering your relatively small number of useful business files more like a needle in a haystack as time goes by.
Is this risk really worth it just to have the simplified option of multiple users in offices where everyone needs their own Personal Computer to begin with?
Anyway they basically call it the Users folder now and you've got a symbolic link from Documents And Settings, so the woods got deeper that time too.
I hate having to knock down more trees just to get stuff done.
Even when paperwork has been my only product so much of the time.
With effective multi-partitioning it became within reach to have separate volumes for Windows vs. Your Data, when you only have a single HDD. You do have to take action from there.
Which is a step in the right direction but with fast external USB drives it's one of the best ways to physically separate your personal filing cabinet from your office/machines again. Plus externally store your well-tested working backups of Windows' less-sizable full C: volume itself as .WIM files, to hammer a reformatted C: often with, which can be quicker than defragmenting with about the same outcome if you do it right.
Losing a laptop doesn't have to be so bad if there are no credentials or company data on board to begin with, but as always don't leave your stuffed filing cabinet in your competitor's reception area. Especially if it fits in between the couch cushions.
But you really have to try and put in some effort here.
Without taking action to have it your way, you'll be left to the default approach which Microsoft has molded for users who may never grasp filing systems at all, which is simultaneously backward-compatible with DOS. And then third-party software which sometimes tries to better cope by having their own layer of obscurity which can help your workflow but the filing can end up even more ugly.
But the filing cabinet never was an office machine anyway, and as far as automatic, I would much rather have a real intelligent secretary file & retrieve my folders than I would a machine.
And without a secretary I figure I'm going to have to put in some effort my dang self, and get the most out of the electronic filing at my fingertips.
The C: volume containing DOS or Windows was subject to the most frequent defects or corruption and could be considered the most risky place to put any of your valuable data if you could help it.
But regular PCs for office or home were supplied with only one partition on their HDD so there was no separate volume that could be dedicated exclusively for storage. The highest-reliablity upgrade was having a second hard drive dedicated for storage, but naturally you had to work from a blank slate and label all the folders yourself just like a secretary would do. Further you need to be very vigilant and direct any valuable data from all Windows or third-party apps to your dedicated folders every time. However nobody actually needed this drive space at the beginning since that's when there's always plenty of room on C:.
But it was worth it.
Be your own secretary.
Yes the C: drive was still a PITA to restore but it was good to maintain readiness to Format C: at any time without losing any valuable data at all.
Then restoring only the system (Windows, installed apps, and settings) quickly from backup, or alternatively reinstalling them in the previously optimized repeatable full recovery procedure. Always install programs to C: right along with Windows. To a newer, faster, or bigger HDD whenever you felt like it. The C: drive was like the office machine substitute, where you need to be able to change some of the things on your desktop or even get a whole new desk from time to time, but you wouldn't want to handle your company files and their filing system as disposably as you would a broken office machine.
And the second HDD volume was the filing cabinet substitute, which could physically be moved or copied and placed into a different office without affecting the desk or desktop that generated the data.
Now this was before the Documents And Settings folder appeared. Which pushed the mainstream in the opposite direction, placing your valuable data by default into folders automatically labeled and tucked away largely within deeply nested trees within Windows' increasing number of self-created folders, and completely downplaying any underlying need to know the filing system at all. Instead of all being in one filing cabinet, your data became a "part" of Windows and it became acceptable for your files to be less accessible to your fingertips alone. Not without Windows and each App in question being there in perfect working order. And with temporary files from the internet growing right there in the same folders, rendering your relatively small number of useful business files more like a needle in a haystack as time goes by.
Is this risk really worth it just to have the simplified option of multiple users in offices where everyone needs their own Personal Computer to begin with?
Anyway they basically call it the Users folder now and you've got a symbolic link from Documents And Settings, so the woods got deeper that time too.
I hate having to knock down more trees just to get stuff done.
Even when paperwork has been my only product so much of the time.
With effective multi-partitioning it became within reach to have separate volumes for Windows vs. Your Data, when you only have a single HDD. You do have to take action from there.
Which is a step in the right direction but with fast external USB drives it's one of the best ways to physically separate your personal filing cabinet from your office/machines again. Plus externally store your well-tested working backups of Windows' less-sizable full C: volume itself as .WIM files, to hammer a reformatted C: often with, which can be quicker than defragmenting with about the same outcome if you do it right.
Losing a laptop doesn't have to be so bad if there are no credentials or company data on board to begin with, but as always don't leave your stuffed filing cabinet in your competitor's reception area. Especially if it fits in between the couch cushions.
Sorry for your relatives experience, that must be very distressing for them.
However, this also shows why having a "backup" is always a good idea. So when/if you do recover what you can recover, you might also consider setting them up with some form of automatic backup such that should this (or a disk failure, which is always a possibility) occur in the future, recovery can be "restore from latest backup" instead of the task you are now facing.
However, this also shows why having a "backup" is always a good idea. So when/if you do recover what you can recover, you might also consider setting them up with some form of automatic backup such that should this (or a disk failure, which is always a possibility) occur in the future, recovery can be "restore from latest backup" instead of the task you are now facing.
Of course backup is always a good idea.
However, an equally good idea when faced with a sudden and utterly unexpected situation, is to not immediately try to solve the problem without understanding what actually happened. The chances of the "fix" doing more harm than good is high.
That said, consumer software should definitely not assume that the user understands how the internals work. In this case, rather than a popup being shows, it would have been more appropriate to give the user a full-screen walkthrough, similar to the first-launch experience, explaining what has happene, what Windows has done, that the documents and pictures are most likely safe, and finally include warnings about the active profile, and associated documents and pictures, being deleted when logging out.
However, an equally good idea when faced with a sudden and utterly unexpected situation, is to not immediately try to solve the problem without understanding what actually happened. The chances of the "fix" doing more harm than good is high.
That said, consumer software should definitely not assume that the user understands how the internals work. In this case, rather than a popup being shows, it would have been more appropriate to give the user a full-screen walkthrough, similar to the first-launch experience, explaining what has happene, what Windows has done, that the documents and pictures are most likely safe, and finally include warnings about the active profile, and associated documents and pictures, being deleted when logging out.
I think it would be infinitely better if Windows refused to log the user on. What good is it to log someone onto their supposed account which is actually just an empty account?
I would be much better to show an error at login saying there is a problem with the account and a question like "Would you like to log in as a guest user?"
I would be much better to show an error at login saying there is a problem with the account and a question like "Would you like to log in as a guest user?"
> I would be much better to show an error at login saying there is a problem with the account and a question like "Would you like to log in as a guest user?"
That's basically what I was suggesting.
That's basically what I was suggesting.
Haha, I asked "Is there a backup?". Answer: "Yes, but it's from months ago"
I had a resume.json file under my user folder and windows 10 simply won't find it in the search bar. It will find another identically named file on a folder on desktop. I have no idea why it cant find it and I'm sure these is some setting I could look up to ameliorate the problem but I am still blaming windows for this.
For filename-based search, use Everything: https://www.voidtools.com/. It’s much faster and more reliable than Windows search.
Another good one is Fast File Finder https://blog.kowalczyk.info/software/fast-file-finder-for-wi.... It's by the same guy who made SumatraPDF.
Wow, I haven't thought about that program for years. I'd thought it was abandoned.
It may just be settings but that's just as inexcusable. If default settings prevent a search feature to find exact filename matches on a system targeted at end users, the default settings are broken.
What is so baffling to me is that it's not being fixed. It would be understandable if it only affected power users or if it was a launch-day issue getting patched in the first week. But it isn't.
What is so baffling to me is that it's not being fixed. It would be understandable if it only affected power users or if it was a launch-day issue getting patched in the first week. But it isn't.
Lately Microsoft has been breaking a lot of bread and butter type stuff.
See the recent experiences with Notepad or Voice Recorder for examples.
See the recent experiences with Notepad or Voice Recorder for examples.
I still frequently pop open Command Prompt and "dir /s file.ext" just to avoid using Explorer's search. And that's as someone who likes using Windows.
> I was frankly astonished that Windows would drop them into a temporary user profile without dire warnings about its transience
Does it? I recall using Windows 7 and being dropped into ~TEMP sometimes, but I was warned with a notification.
Does it? I recall using Windows 7 and being dropped into ~TEMP sometimes, but I was warned with a notification.
So I Googled this to see what they were shown...
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/my-pro...
A notification in the status bar, along with their other 10+ notifications about Skype, printers, antivirus etc. They didn't see it, or if they did see it, didn't understand the implications. The horrible thing is that they didn't want to bother me with it, and tried to solve the issue themselves :(
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/my-pro...
A notification in the status bar, along with their other 10+ notifications about Skype, printers, antivirus etc. They didn't see it, or if they did see it, didn't understand the implications. The horrible thing is that they didn't want to bother me with it, and tried to solve the issue themselves :(
On top of that, the message says (emphasis added) “files CREATED in this profile will be deleted when you log off”. In this case, the user didn’t CREATE files; they MOVED them.
I also doubt the typical user will know that profile is shorthand for user profile and know what that is.
End result: because of corruption of some data the user likely is only remotely interested in, all data they were interested in got deleted.
I also doubt the typical user will know that profile is shorthand for user profile and know what that is.
End result: because of corruption of some data the user likely is only remotely interested in, all data they were interested in got deleted.
The Windows 10 one (which, NB, is from 7+ years ago) says "any changes you make will be lost" and doesn't mention "profile":
https://www.windowsphoneinfo.com/attachments/97fdf7d3-6fca-4...
https://www.windowsphoneinfo.com/attachments/97fdf7d3-6fca-4...
I don't think this makes it any better. Imho "any changes you make will be lost" would mean to move the files back to where they were before and not delete them.
I think one solution to this would be to treat clicking and dragging files to the temp profile the same as clicking and dragging files to a USB drive: it copies instead of the normal move.
Agree. Still, this is horrible
This is probably not at all intuitive to the regular Windows user, my parents would never understand the implications of this.
> This is probably not at all intuitive to the regular Windows user, my parents would never understand the implications of this
The trick here is how do we solve this other than further user education? When the user profile folder is unusable for some reason you either have to do this or just refuse login. Neither are good answers, but this one is better as long as you understand what the system's doing.
If one doesn't know what the system's doing and isn't interested in trying to understand it I don't see a way to avoid this issue.
The trick here is how do we solve this other than further user education? When the user profile folder is unusable for some reason you either have to do this or just refuse login. Neither are good answers, but this one is better as long as you understand what the system's doing.
If one doesn't know what the system's doing and isn't interested in trying to understand it I don't see a way to avoid this issue.
I see this attitude a lot, and it drives me a little crazy. All the conversations I've heard between developers and project managers immediately spring into my head. "But what if X happens", "Well, we showed them a message about it. There's nothing else we can do." This only makes sense for confirmations ("Leave this page? You'll lose your work."), and only sometimes. In most other cases, it's just an excuse to keep things simple for developers. Software can do anything you want, especially if you own the stack in question - you just have to care enough to design and pursue it. There is always an at-least-pretty-decent UX answer to any problem. In this case, some off-the-top-of-my-head possibilities are simply disabling writes, or showing a message with better wording at write time in Explorer, e.g. "This file will be deleted . . .". If a designer takes the time to think about it, they could come up many more, perhaps better, possibilities.
Hell, even just changing the terrible wording on the notification (and putting it somewhere much less ignorable) would be a step forward. E.g. "Your files have been temporarily moved to X. Any files you place in My Documents, My Pictures (etc) will be deleted when you log off or turn off your computer.").
Hell, even just changing the terrible wording on the notification (and putting it somewhere much less ignorable) would be a step forward. E.g. "Your files have been temporarily moved to X. Any files you place in My Documents, My Pictures (etc) will be deleted when you log off or turn off your computer.").
How the hell did they have read + write access from the temporary profile to the old one? Shouldn't the tenporary profile belong to a distinct, temporary user account?
Or the move opration immediately prompted for admin authorisation, and they just clicked through that? (not suggesting that these prompts are in any way useful for the average user)
Or the move opration immediately prompted for admin authorisation, and they just clicked through that? (not suggesting that these prompts are in any way useful for the average user)
> When the user profile folder is unusable for some reason you either have to do this or just refuse login. Neither are good answers, but this one is better as long as you understand what the system's doing.
As this whole discussion shows, no, this one is worse since it can easily lead to data loss. A third option, however, would be to do this but not erase the profile on logout.
As this whole discussion shows, no, this one is worse since it can easily lead to data loss. A third option, however, would be to do this but not erase the profile on logout.
Or an even better fourth option: the warning message literally says "you cannot access your files". https://i.imgur.com/6jk6imp.png
That is apparently false because the user did access their files and dragged them into the temp profile.
Either that should be literally true (a completely broken profile is a bad problem that needs help from a competent tech support person) or the profile should at least be made read-only until the entire profile is deleted. That way they could copy the files into the temp folder, but not lose anything (other than changes) after logging out.
Also, the warning should be more obviously "fatal", not something to be clicked through. E.g. replace the desktop background with a black screen and put the warning text in red on it.
That is apparently false because the user did access their files and dragged them into the temp profile.
Either that should be literally true (a completely broken profile is a bad problem that needs help from a competent tech support person) or the profile should at least be made read-only until the entire profile is deleted. That way they could copy the files into the temp folder, but not lose anything (other than changes) after logging out.
Also, the warning should be more obviously "fatal", not something to be clicked through. E.g. replace the desktop background with a black screen and put the warning text in red on it.
No one reads notifications. They just click OK so they can get to the desktop.
They'll read it next time, most likely. This is how people learn.
Someone in their 70s just blames "that stupid old laptop" that their brother told them to replace last year, but they wouldn't listen. The underlying cause is never found, the pop-up message wasn't read. The laptop is just an asshole. They'll go to the computer store and buy a different laptop that isn't an asshole.
My condolences, I had a corrupt profile once, I was a bit angry that I could find no way to uncorrupt it. I could find no tools that would fix it. I ended up having to remove the user and create a new one. Thankfully no file loss but the whole process was made harder than it should have been because the only user account on the system was the corrupt one and it refused to log in due to the profile problem.
My lessons learned from it.
windows profiles are far too complicated, it was hard to find low level information on how they work or how to diagnose and fix a bad profile.
make sure you have and know another login. preferably the admin one.
My lessons learned from it.
windows profiles are far too complicated, it was hard to find low level information on how they work or how to diagnose and fix a bad profile.
make sure you have and know another login. preferably the admin one.
My memory is shaky as it's been a while since I used it, but I vaguely remember there being a hidden built-in administrator account that could possibly be used in this situation. Can't remember if you would need to set a password on it / enable it ahead of time though
Edit: this might be what you meant by the admin one (rather than a)
Edit: this might be what you meant by the admin one (rather than a)
Would this have helped?
https://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/186131-user-profile-se...
Win7 had an occassional timing issue where it would try to start before the profile could be read so it would boot to a temp profile. The main symptom is that all the user's files and desktop icons were gone. I would just have them reboot then it would be fine but it would need a tuneup, chkdsk, delete tmps, etc. as long as the drive wasn't really old. It used to be more common before the move to SSDs instead of HDDs but a Win7 computer's drive is probably really old, so yes, time for a new PC.
In this case the deleted files would have to recovered. I recently use Easus Data Recovery Wizard and was able to restore a lot of files for a client who's photo storage drive crashed. It would be best to pull the drive and do the recovery on another computer. I think the free tool allows up to 2GBs of data recovery but in this case the client had 100's of GBs so he paid for a 30 day license for $65.
In this case the deleted files would have to recovered. I recently use Easus Data Recovery Wizard and was able to restore a lot of files for a client who's photo storage drive crashed. It would be best to pull the drive and do the recovery on another computer. I think the free tool allows up to 2GBs of data recovery but in this case the client had 100's of GBs so he paid for a 30 day license for $65.
You can use Recuva. Just make sure you run it from a USB or something. Try to prevent as many writes to that disk as possible
Well after using TestDisk and PhotoRec, not being happy with the results, I used Recuva and I now have over 90% of the data back with the correct directory structure. So for anyone reading this thread, I can't update the original post, but this is the answer. It's a GUI, it's super simple to use and it recovered files and folders better than any other free tool.
That was the option I was going to go with, but it means using my Wife's Windows machine. Also TestDisk or PhotoRec, but I don't think they can recover directory structure, so it would be thousands of files all higgledy-piggledy.
Without knowing what types of files they lost, this might not be too bad. For the first round of organizing, sort by file extension. E.g. Anything with .exe was probably Downloads, video files go to My Videos, and so on. A number of apps will organize JPGs into a consistent directory structure based on the date or other fields in the metadata. For the remaining documents, view by x-large icons so your relative can quickly categorize what goes where.
Not if you have a SSD.
>(This wasn't obvious to the user because Explorer hides the 'detail' of the file path and simply shows the username)
I hate how Explorer tries to be clever with the Documents etc folders but it just makes it obtuse. Like if I open Documents from the side bar and press Up Directory I end up in My Computer not my home folder.
I hate how Explorer tries to be clever with the Documents etc folders but it just makes it obtuse. Like if I open Documents from the side bar and press Up Directory I end up in My Computer not my home folder.
Just don't use your user profile directory at all. If you really want to, replace the directories with Junction Points that point elsewhere. Then if your User Profile gets deleted, nothing will happen to the files.
If you really want to, replace the directories with Junction Points that point elsewhere.
After https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18189139 , I don't think I want the OS to know where else I'm storing my files.
After https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18189139 , I don't think I want the OS to know where else I'm storing my files.
Temporary profiles have been a feature on Windows for many years. Likely intended as a way to login when a roaming profile isn't available on the network, not something a home user would care about.
> Windows couldn't use their user profile because it was corrupted
So this is the source of the problem. How does it happen?
So this is the source of the problem. How does it happen?
A corrupt ntuser.dat file or profile permissions issue can trigger a temporary profile.
In my experience, unexpected power loss qnd bluescreens are the most common cause for these problems. Even Windows 7 was pretty good at keeping their system files consistent enough to be auto recovered.
I don't know yet. I'm currently creating a bit-copy of the disk using `dd`, and will start investigating the copy. So far, no disk errors.
Was going to make sure you did this. There is a high chance you will be able to get a lot of the files back.
You can use autopsy which is open source to carve for files. Or you might be able to use binwalk.
You can use autopsy which is open source to carve for files. Or you might be able to use binwalk.
I got good results with photorec. Despit its name, it can recover other file types too. Beware: It takes ages, and finds absolutely everything, including e.g. the browser cache.
A long time ago at one of my first jobs we had a guy who stored his files in the Recycle Bin, when asked why he indicated that he liked the icon.
Of course the bin eventually recycled his files which led to him finally reaching out for help.
Of course the bin eventually recycled his files which led to him finally reaching out for help.
I once recovered most of my pictures with https://sleuthkit.org/
3 failures here:
Windows -
1) Automatically forced a temporary profile creation instead of asking to do so.
2) Forced automatic temp profile alert was too small and quiet, so the end-user simply ignored it.
User-
3) No backups.
Windows -
1) Automatically forced a temporary profile creation instead of asking to do so.
2) Forced automatic temp profile alert was too small and quiet, so the end-user simply ignored it.
User-
3) No backups.
I think the actual issue is that the files showed up in the search, allowing the user to do something that would lead to disastrous consequences. How did that happen from a temporary profile? Why does that temporary profile have access rights to the previous profile?
Also, I'm not entirely certain that Windows automatically deletes temporary profiles.
Also, I'm not entirely certain that Windows automatically deletes temporary profiles.
Back in the day when I used windows, there is a tool "Recuva"[1] that scan the harddisk to recover deleted files. As long as the block on harddisk is not overwritten by new content, it can restore the deleted files.
[1] https://www.ccleaner.com/recuva
[1] https://www.ccleaner.com/recuva
Sorry, a tangential question ... my friend's 2011 Macbook Air's hard drive gave up and she has all of her photos there. The Macbook doesn't boot, just shows a white screen. Can the photos be salvaged somehow?
I'm not sure off the top of my head if MacOS was encrypting the drive at that time, but you might try plugging the drive into FTK Imager or Autopsy. I believe both of these tools will do some data carving.
But before you do that, make sure the issue isn't the hard drive itself. If the hard drive is damaged, you may still be able to recover data, but it'll need to be done by someone who knows what they are doing. If the drive is spinning irregularly, or clicking, or not recognized by another system you might have issues.
Source - I used to work in a digital forensics lab.
But before you do that, make sure the issue isn't the hard drive itself. If the hard drive is damaged, you may still be able to recover data, but it'll need to be done by someone who knows what they are doing. If the drive is spinning irregularly, or clicking, or not recognized by another system you might have issues.
Source - I used to work in a digital forensics lab.
Wow, my guess was since it was 2011, they would've still been using an old-fashioned spinning disk or probably an SSD with that form factor and normal SATA connection, but they were already using M.2 SSD, but a Frankenstein one where an adapter is needed:
https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/n4Fo16YKi45Y5JxL.f...
Source: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Air+11-Inch+Mid+2011+So...
https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/n4Fo16YKi45Y5JxL.f...
Source: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Air+11-Inch+Mid+2011+So...
That is surprising! I also assumed that being a 2011 it would be a spinning disk drive.
Nope, MacBook Air switched over to flash storage shortly after it was introduced (looks like EveryMac confirms it was the 2008 and 2009 higher end models then all 2010 models: https://everymac.com/systems/apple/macbook-air/specs/macbook...).
thank you!
Try putting the laptop in "target disk" mode, and see if you can access it from another Mac. It'll make the laptop act like an external hard-drive, and then you can plug it into a different computer and copy off your files (or maybe try a filesystem repair)
will try that, thanks!
I recovered a lot with RMF, not sure if it still has the vibe though, that was a decade ago.
[link] https://getdata.com/recovermyfiles/
[link] https://getdata.com/recovermyfiles/
I've seen this happen a number of times. Pretty sure I first saw it on WinXP.
Buy them an 8TB external hard drive for $150
Tell them to flip it on once a week if not more often.
Press the backup button.
Turn it off when done.
Now they have the ultimate offline backup for a full restore regardless of corruption, virus, hacked, etc.
Tell them to flip it on once a week if not more often.
Press the backup button.
Turn it off when done.
Now they have the ultimate offline backup for a full restore regardless of corruption, virus, hacked, etc.
Check out PhotoRec:
https://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/PhotoRec
https://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/PhotoRec
Try Recuva, IsoBuster, etc.
And take an image before booting the disk.
And take an image before booting the disk.
Have you recovered them yet?
As long as they are just "deleted" and not overwritten, file recovery on Windows used to be easy.
As long as they are just "deleted" and not overwritten, file recovery on Windows used to be easy.
I might have some recommendations, please reach out to me if you're still struggling to recover the files
There really shouldn't be any problem! Disk drives on any operating system can fail at any time. All they have to do is simply restore from their backups.
Shame on Hacker News for doing this juvenile "Mico$oft WINDOWS BAD" crap. It's boring and stupid.
Shame on Hacker News for doing this juvenile "Mico$oft WINDOWS BAD" crap. It's boring and stupid.
GetDataBack for NTFS with full scan should be able to recover files.
temporary profile can access files belonging to a different profile that the user was unable to log into ?
and move / effectively delete them all?
why does a temporary profile have such privileges
and move / effectively delete them all?
why does a temporary profile have such privileges
Recuva is a great freeware tool to restore files.
Once you have a SSD you can't get back deleted files.
Only after the volume has been trimmed, which by default happens only once a week in Windows, IIRC.
No, the TRIM happen the moment you delete the file.
Not anymore on windows or Linux. It tends to cause wear issues on many SSDs
Well do the test on windows, delete a single file and try to get it back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzClnwGeJUM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzClnwGeJUM
I did a couple months ago to a number of files. Worked fine. Windows 10, all solid state storage.
I've recovered deleted files from an SSD before.
It must have ben some times ago, basically SSD / OS in the last 6 years will TRIM by default which make recovery impossible.
I didn't know that. I'm (probably irrationally) paranoid enough about the potential recovery of data that I store all my old laptops in an increasingly tottering tower in the garage (though technically they should have been encrypted as well.) If there is 0% chance of data recovery, I should probably look into selling them..
This is probably such a rare event, your relative might have been the only person in history to do this. So I'm not exactly impressed by the "badness" here.
@HN/Damg: How the hell are we supposed all that text by OP if it’s deliberately faded out?
Gray on beige, really?
Do we have to wait for YOUR eyesight to worsen before you realize some basic usability?
Gray on beige, really?
Do we have to wait for YOUR eyesight to worsen before you realize some basic usability?
Try DMDE.
>I was frankly astonished that Windows would drop them into a temporary user profile without dire warnings about its transience.
There is warnings... Now the Win7 one is just the notification baloon and easy to miss but the 10 one is pretty "in your face"
Windows 7: https://imgur.com/a/ao5AtO6
Windows 10: https://imgur.com/a/Hl9XnZV
There is warnings... Now the Win7 one is just the notification baloon and easy to miss but the 10 one is pretty "in your face"
Windows 7: https://imgur.com/a/ao5AtO6
Windows 10: https://imgur.com/a/Hl9XnZV
Too long and too verbose and too ordinary for such an critical warning. The title "You have been logged on with a temporary profile." is so unoffencive that doesn't really make you read the paragraph explaining what it means. It sounds like something that you can deal with later, it should be "All files will be deleted upon sign out" and then you can read and learn that this is a temporary profile.
Windows likes to tell stuff of no urgency all the time and people will close those click. click. click.
IMHO when the computer is used in extraordinary situation the UI should be making it very clear. Probably all kind of customisation should be removed so the user feel like in wrong place and has high alertness. When moving files into folders that will be deleted the user should be warned with a short and scary message(macOS warns you that the files will be deleted from the cloud if you move files out of iCloud synced folders like Desktop and Documents).
Windows likes to tell stuff of no urgency all the time and people will close those click. click. click.
IMHO when the computer is used in extraordinary situation the UI should be making it very clear. Probably all kind of customisation should be removed so the user feel like in wrong place and has high alertness. When moving files into folders that will be deleted the user should be warned with a short and scary message(macOS warns you that the files will be deleted from the cloud if you move files out of iCloud synced folders like Desktop and Documents).
guess what? all customization is removed, because that configuration is stored in the user profile.
Good point but just in case if the user has not been using a customised UI, maybe everything should look non-default and out of place. If I remember correctly, the system defaults to a low resolution when something goes wrong and this may help.
The point is, the user should be made aware that this is not business as usual and proceed with extreme caution. A popup with cryptic title and long paragraph won't do it.
The point is, the user should be made aware that this is not business as usual and proceed with extreme caution. A popup with cryptic title and long paragraph won't do it.
On some Linux distros logging in with the root account gives you a lot of red in the ui. Same as the terminal colours when you sudo su.
Since Windows is giving you a temporary profile that doesn't have any of your settings, why not put a warning on the wallpaper, make the directories read only, the ui red/yellow, or add a logoff script that checks pictures, videos and docs directories etc? Back in my windows days I did a ton of user profile configuration for roaming profiles, default profiles etc. This stuff isn't hard. You'd expect Microsoft to do a better job at it when there's a risk of data loss
Since Windows is giving you a temporary profile that doesn't have any of your settings, why not put a warning on the wallpaper, make the directories read only, the ui red/yellow, or add a logoff script that checks pictures, videos and docs directories etc? Back in my windows days I did a ton of user profile configuration for roaming profiles, default profiles etc. This stuff isn't hard. You'd expect Microsoft to do a better job at it when there's a risk of data loss
It is absurd that a user profile, even one that's intended to be ephemeral, is _ever_ placed in temporary storage for exactly the reason of what happened here. The data should have been retained, at least for some preset amount of time (on the order of months) if not indefinitely.
The old profile is still under C:\Users
No old data is deleted. In OPs case the user moved the data over to the temp one and then it gets deleted on relog.
For a home user the fix is hopefully to just reboot
For a domain users I have to do this when it happens: https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/48012-fix-youve-been-sig...
No old data is deleted. In OPs case the user moved the data over to the temp one and then it gets deleted on relog.
For a home user the fix is hopefully to just reboot
For a domain users I have to do this when it happens: https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/48012-fix-youve-been-sig...
Perhaps a lot of key folders such as Documents, pictures, etc should also be readonly or denied access to prevent someone from using those temp profile folders and beliving data would persist.
Or maybe a temp profiles directory structure shouldn't be visually similar or identical to a full a profile.
Lots of low hanging fruit here.
Or maybe a temp profiles directory structure shouldn't be visually similar or identical to a full a profile.
Lots of low hanging fruit here.
Sounds like good ideas for sure.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/send-feedback-to...
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/send-feedback-to...
anvic(4)
Well the mistake was to move files first place. Should have done a copy first, check if everything is ok and then delete.
You're right of course, but this is a man in his 70s who didn't want to bother me again to fix his old laptop.
Huh? Assuming they was actually no warning, I doubt any of us would reboot before the check in that sort of process.
Being a Linux user (Debian, Mate), I have never suffered "profile corruption". Or "lost" a file that I recall.
Is this a normal thing in Windows?
Is this a normal thing in Windows?
Just because it didn't happen to you, doesn't mean it didn't happen to anybody else. I got hit by the ext4 empty-files-after-crash that corrupted my KDE profile back in the day.
[deleted]
> Windows would drop them into a temporary user profile without dire warnings about its transience.
I'm sure there was some warning. But you know, users don't read messages...
I'm sure there was some warning. But you know, users don't read messages...
> frankly astonished that Windows would drop them into a temporary user profile without dire warnings about its transience.
windows didn't drop them into a temporary user profile; the user did that.
windows assumes that you know what you're doing when you move files around. everyone loses their minds when it doesn't make this assumption.
windows didn't drop them into a temporary user profile; the user did that.
windows assumes that you know what you're doing when you move files around. everyone loses their minds when it doesn't make this assumption.
How did the user actively drop themselves into a temporary user profile?
You'd be amazed how people just drag'n'drop stuff they don't understand, and given that in Windows you're the "root" (Administrator) all the time, then you can guess how easy was that.
that's clearly not what the original line meant by "drop into".
the user dropped the FILES into a temporary user profile.
Windows tells you when it logs you into a temporary user profile. it doesn't do that silently.
Windows tells you when it logs you into a temporary user profile. it doesn't do that silently.
They logged into Windows 7 (I know, upgrade...) and it looked like their files were missing. In a panic, they opened Explorer and searched for their files. They turned up in the search. They just didn't show up in the usual "My Documents", "My Pictures", "My Videos" paths.
They decided to move the files "to the correct place". And then they shut the computer down.
The next time they started it, the same thing happened. This is where I got called in, because this time, the files didn't show up in a search. I told them to turn the computer off immediately and drop it with me.
Can you guess what happened? Well, check this out:
- Windows couldn't use their user profile because it was corrupted
- So it created a temporary profile in "C:\Users\TEMP". (This wasn't obvious to the user because Explorer hides the 'detail' of the file path and simply shows the username)
- Unwittingly, when they moved the precious files to the "correct" place, they were putting them into a temporary profile.
- On shutdown, Windows promptly deleted the temporary profile, so "C:\Users\TEMP" got wiped along with all of the files.
I was frankly astonished that Windows would drop them into a temporary user profile without dire warnings about its transience. Anyway, now I have to try to recover not only the files, but the directory structures. I'm not even sure it's possible... :(