The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse(newyorker.com)
newyorker.com
The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/11/14/the-case-against-the-twitter-apology-matthew-ichihashi-potts-forgiveness-danya-ruttenberg-on-repentance-and-repair
140 comments
> hyperreality describes the situation where we don't live in reality anymore but in the image of the reality we build
This concept is almost tautological since the only conceivable alternative would be universal omniscience.
This concept is almost tautological since the only conceivable alternative would be universal omniscience.
I might have add "upon itself".
There is much to say about what is reality, and you can bring researcher like Hoffmann stating that we see of reality only what is good for our peak survival (don't need infrared, don't see infrared).
Hyperreality is something else altogether. First, it's a common theme in postmodernist to state we live in a construct culturally accepted and ever evolving. Hyperreality states that we accept for reality layers that are objectively not, and make it "more real than real". The flavors of energy drinks (with weird names and chemically cultivated), porn for sex, Disney land as archetypal America, tv reality (which is everything but reality). Transposing the sign-value for the thing by itself. Words does not mean the thing that they use to mean but are reinterpreted upon this biased view of reality.
The map is not the territory, the word are not the reality behind them.
Media are more problematic because they are the message (see McLuhan), they are a space we live in (the water the fish flow in), not "reality" sense by our direct organ.
But yeah it's tricky, there is a philosophical conundrum, I get your point.
There is much to say about what is reality, and you can bring researcher like Hoffmann stating that we see of reality only what is good for our peak survival (don't need infrared, don't see infrared).
Hyperreality is something else altogether. First, it's a common theme in postmodernist to state we live in a construct culturally accepted and ever evolving. Hyperreality states that we accept for reality layers that are objectively not, and make it "more real than real". The flavors of energy drinks (with weird names and chemically cultivated), porn for sex, Disney land as archetypal America, tv reality (which is everything but reality). Transposing the sign-value for the thing by itself. Words does not mean the thing that they use to mean but are reinterpreted upon this biased view of reality.
The map is not the territory, the word are not the reality behind them.
Media are more problematic because they are the message (see McLuhan), they are a space we live in (the water the fish flow in), not "reality" sense by our direct organ.
But yeah it's tricky, there is a philosophical conundrum, I get your point.
I honestly don't think Beaudrillard would have tolerated any philosophical hairsplitting about perceived realities - he recognized a "real" reality, and a shallow, artificial replacement, and was darned cynical & bitter about it.
> First, it's a common theme in postmodernist to state we live in a construct culturally accepted and ever evolving
Hasn't this always been the case?
Hasn't this always been the case?
Eh? The Amish (for instance) don't live in hyperreality (by Beaudrillard's definition).
Eloquently described. News websites I used to frequent have become echo chambers with little tolerance for opposing perspectives. The willingness to discuss becomes a thing of the past and the term 'facts' has been twisted so much that it now means 'your opinion'.
I'd like to say by educating people and showing them how to spot that, but I'm afraid that would just make spectacle more elaborate
Whoever figures out a secular distillation of the concept of grace is going to be very, very successful in community-building. The lack of it is painfully apparent, and it offers something to both the accused and the accusers.
Now, whether people actually want that from others in these cases, or are merely enjoying the use of power a little too much, is another discussion.
Now, whether people actually want that from others in these cases, or are merely enjoying the use of power a little too much, is another discussion.
I genuinely don't think it's compatible with contemporary western morality that holds that actions are either valid expressions of self-actualization and so require no apology, or are transgressions for which no forgiveness is possible.
The idea that regardless of a person's "right" to make a certain choice, an action can be so harmful that it cannot be corrected, but also that it can be forgiven is too far from how we think and live now.
The idea that regardless of a person's "right" to make a certain choice, an action can be so harmful that it cannot be corrected, but also that it can be forgiven is too far from how we think and live now.
This is true, but "contemporary" isn't the right adjective. This is the culture of the moralist left, of the blue cities, of the Coast, of Progressivism as the only moral ideology
In the US, at least, if you engage with conservative culture, with Christians, with rural people, with the people who are tired of "cancel culture," you will still find plenty of grace.
I'm an independent. Over the last few years, it has been entirely Coastal people who have cut me out of their lives for things like saying I think the EcoHealth Alliance might have had something to do with COVID-19. The ones left in my life are the ones that know how to give grace.
Sure, this is anecdotal, but it's cultural commentary.
And to throw a bone and not pick too much on one side of the culture war, the Red areas have their own pathologies. For instance, while they won't necessarily stop talking to you altogether if you do something wrong, but lots of them will spread shit about you all over the community if you do.
Maybe everyone could stand to listen to Christ on this topic, whether or not they believe in him in so many words
In the US, at least, if you engage with conservative culture, with Christians, with rural people, with the people who are tired of "cancel culture," you will still find plenty of grace.
I'm an independent. Over the last few years, it has been entirely Coastal people who have cut me out of their lives for things like saying I think the EcoHealth Alliance might have had something to do with COVID-19. The ones left in my life are the ones that know how to give grace.
Sure, this is anecdotal, but it's cultural commentary.
And to throw a bone and not pick too much on one side of the culture war, the Red areas have their own pathologies. For instance, while they won't necessarily stop talking to you altogether if you do something wrong, but lots of them will spread shit about you all over the community if you do.
Maybe everyone could stand to listen to Christ on this topic, whether or not they believe in him in so many words
> This is the culture of the moralist left, of the blue cities, of the Coast, of Progressivism as the only moral ideology
> In the US, at least, if you engage with conservative culture, with Christians, with rural people, with the people who are tired of "cancel culture," you will still find plenty of grace.
As is often the case with generalization born of prejudice, this effort to split good and evil along ideological lines fails to match up with reality. Plenty of Progressives give grace to people around them. Plenty of Christians ostracize and abuse even the people closest to them. The vocal hypocrites on either side loom large for their ideological opponents and the quietly good on either side are easily ignored, except by their ideological peers. This pattern holds in rural towns and huge cities.
The problems of selfishness and hate for others are difficult to solve, and unfortunately even a framework as simple as Christ's demonstrates that. Try not to get too comfortable with the belief that people who see the world differently aren't still trying to navigate it kindly.
> In the US, at least, if you engage with conservative culture, with Christians, with rural people, with the people who are tired of "cancel culture," you will still find plenty of grace.
As is often the case with generalization born of prejudice, this effort to split good and evil along ideological lines fails to match up with reality. Plenty of Progressives give grace to people around them. Plenty of Christians ostracize and abuse even the people closest to them. The vocal hypocrites on either side loom large for their ideological opponents and the quietly good on either side are easily ignored, except by their ideological peers. This pattern holds in rural towns and huge cities.
The problems of selfishness and hate for others are difficult to solve, and unfortunately even a framework as simple as Christ's demonstrates that. Try not to get too comfortable with the belief that people who see the world differently aren't still trying to navigate it kindly.
> everyone could stand to listen to Christ on this topic
Yup.
The new thing is that we’re too smart and cool for all the things religion teaches, while we scratch our heads trying to solve all the problems it gives you the solution for.
Yup.
The new thing is that we’re too smart and cool for all the things religion teaches, while we scratch our heads trying to solve all the problems it gives you the solution for.
I think my intense aversion to Christianity originates from knowing only those people who take the Bible literally and have true faith in the stories that are told. Hell actually exists, gay people go there, divorce is fine though, oh don't worry about that line, etc. It's all very pick and choose.
I think I would have had much more interest in faith/religion if they acknowledged the myth component of their stories, and acknowledged the utility of abiding by the framework nonetheless.
I think I would have had much more interest in faith/religion if they acknowledged the myth component of their stories, and acknowledged the utility of abiding by the framework nonetheless.
IMHO faith can only exist and have meaning (including to God) when juxtaposed with doubt. If God manifested in Times Square as a 2,000 foot glowing being, would admitting your belief in His existence mean anything?
If any theist says they have no doubt, I’d first say they’re possibly lying, maybe to themselves.
If any theist says they have no doubt, I’d first say they’re possibly lying, maybe to themselves.
It feels taboo to say, but doubt is probably critical for the formation of an authentic faith. Kierkegaard calls it a leap of faith for a reason, after all. I posit that some are able to believe with minimal doubt, but circumstances will eventually force the issue.
>The new thing is that we’re too smart and cool for all the things religion teaches, while we scratch our heads trying to solve all the problems it gives you the solution for.
First of all, that isn't new. The Renaissance, when philosophy, science and law began to divorce themselves from religion, started about 700 years ago.
Second, nothing useful taught by religion actually requires religion itself. You don't need to believe in salvation through faith, or the Holy Trinity, or Hell and brimstone for the teachings of Jesus to be useful. That isn't religion, that's philosophy.
First of all, that isn't new. The Renaissance, when philosophy, science and law began to divorce themselves from religion, started about 700 years ago.
Second, nothing useful taught by religion actually requires religion itself. You don't need to believe in salvation through faith, or the Holy Trinity, or Hell and brimstone for the teachings of Jesus to be useful. That isn't religion, that's philosophy.
>Second, nothing useful taught by religion actually requires religion itself.
This hinges very much on your definition of "useful;" if you don't believe in God or the resurrection of the dead, then talk concerning them is of course pointless. But if you do, they are very useful indeed.
This hinges very much on your definition of "useful;" if you don't believe in God or the resurrection of the dead, then talk concerning them is of course pointless. But if you do, they are very useful indeed.
My definition of useful in this case is humanistic. The utility of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" doesn't depend on belief in the supernatural, nor do concepts like grace and forgiveness.
Sometimes the illness is better than the cure
It'd be great if these paragons of grace would have a serious chat with the 'fuck your feelings' crowd about their death threat fetish, since they are nominally all in the same big tent.
> In the US, at least, if you engage with conservative culture, with Christians, with rural people, with the people who are tired of "cancel culture," you will still find plenty of grace.
The sjws and Christians show grace in exactly the same way: you earn it by converting.
Middle America also has it's own issues, nihilism, crab mentality (big one), and drug issues (also a coastal problem) are some that come to mind
The sjws and Christians show grace in exactly the same way: you earn it by converting.
Middle America also has it's own issues, nihilism, crab mentality (big one), and drug issues (also a coastal problem) are some that come to mind
I grew up in the American south, hearing I would go to hell if I had premarital sex, took God's name in vain, or watched the Simpson's. There wasn't really a 'cultural left' where I lived (or I wasn't aware of it), but I was well aware that the Christian right had a stranglehold on the idea of morality.
Now that situation seems to have shifted, and the left has adopted and re-branded ideas of original sin, absolution, performative prayer, etc. But I don't believe for a minute that folks in my hometown have discovered how to embody the idea of grace and cultural liberality. If anything I see more antagonism now that evangelism and Trumpism have created a terrible two-headed beast.
Now that situation seems to have shifted, and the left has adopted and re-branded ideas of original sin, absolution, performative prayer, etc. But I don't believe for a minute that folks in my hometown have discovered how to embody the idea of grace and cultural liberality. If anything I see more antagonism now that evangelism and Trumpism have created a terrible two-headed beast.
I mean I have been a christian all my life, and I am also unambiguously very far to the left explicitly because that is the only way I can see to truly act within my religious beliefs in the world right now. So I'm not sure how far this framework can get you, really. I certainly don't find it to have much explanatory power on any of these issues.
I also think it could be rephrased in a way that would make it easy to see how it describes the american political right, but I kind of trusted the readers to do that and didn't bother. But things like refusal to wear masks, wide-spread gun ownership, these are the "self-actualizated rights" that conservatives understand as needing no forgiveness regardless of harm caused.
I also think it could be rephrased in a way that would make it easy to see how it describes the american political right, but I kind of trusted the readers to do that and didn't bother. But things like refusal to wear masks, wide-spread gun ownership, these are the "self-actualizated rights" that conservatives understand as needing no forgiveness regardless of harm caused.
> that is the only way I can see to truly act within my religious beliefs
I've been unable to find in the Bible the phrase that says "take from bob and give it to bill and you will be righteous".
My interpretation of the Bible is that Jesus encouraged people to freely give of their own to help others.
I'm genuinely curious where your leftist views derive from Christian principles.
I've been unable to find in the Bible the phrase that says "take from bob and give it to bill and you will be righteous".
My interpretation of the Bible is that Jesus encouraged people to freely give of their own to help others.
I'm genuinely curious where your leftist views derive from Christian principles.
You've already mischaracterized my views and further I'm not particularly educated or skilled in debate or theology, nor do I enjoy defending the deep foundations of my self from what is likely to be a hostile audience on the internet. So you will have to remain curious, sorry.
But I am lucky enough to have received a centuries-long tradition of christian radicalism, and came to no conclusions on my own. You can read john chysostom, or mother maria, or tolstoy, or talk to your own priest. The path is well-worn and there are many ways to find it.
But I am lucky enough to have received a centuries-long tradition of christian radicalism, and came to no conclusions on my own. You can read john chysostom, or mother maria, or tolstoy, or talk to your own priest. The path is well-worn and there are many ways to find it.
You're safe with me, as I eschew use of rhetorical tricks and traps in debate
(people try them all the time on me). I do my best to rely on facts and reason. I only take sides that I believe are correct.
I believe that if one espouses honest opinions, and they don't hold up to facts and reason, one should re-evaluate those opinions, or acquire a stronger basis for them.
I believe that if one espouses honest opinions, and they don't hold up to facts and reason, one should re-evaluate those opinions, or acquire a stronger basis for them.
Actually the Apostles try having "all things in common" for a while in Acts 4 or so, find that their initial ideas don't work out that great (see, e.g. Ananias), but eventually set up institutions of communal living with some monasteries and such.
There's nothing wrong with voluntary communism. It's the forcible kind, though, that is unjust.
> or are transgressions for which no forgiveness is possible.
Is that really a thing people believe? I don't think that's actually true. B/c people know they fuck up, and they will ask the people around them for forgiveness, and they think they can deserve it. And when someone who actually matters in our lives does something wrong, we can sometimes forgive them.
I think the problem is:
- the most highly visible cases are often public figures who did something wrong for a long time and only expressed when they were caught or caught and publicly shamed. It's hard to believe these people are sincere when they repent.
- the public performance of unforgiveness has itself become an opportunity for virtue signaling.
- the most sincere apologies are for these reasons given and received out of the public eye, and I think we then don't see the real response modeled very often.
Is that really a thing people believe? I don't think that's actually true. B/c people know they fuck up, and they will ask the people around them for forgiveness, and they think they can deserve it. And when someone who actually matters in our lives does something wrong, we can sometimes forgive them.
I think the problem is:
- the most highly visible cases are often public figures who did something wrong for a long time and only expressed when they were caught or caught and publicly shamed. It's hard to believe these people are sincere when they repent.
- the public performance of unforgiveness has itself become an opportunity for virtue signaling.
- the most sincere apologies are for these reasons given and received out of the public eye, and I think we then don't see the real response modeled very often.
A related concept that I think about all the time is that we have an intuitive understanding of what reputation and trust mean for individuals based on our evolutionary history as social animals.
But it's not at all clear that an intuitive trust or reputation model that works well for individuals scales to something reasonable when applied to groups and institutions.
Bayer (well, IG Farben) made the Zyklon B used in the gas chambers of the Holocaust. Is Bayer still evil even though no one who did that is still there? Can they be forgiven? Should they be? Where does the conscience of an organization reside and how can others tell if it has been remediated? Can an organization feel shame or remorse?
Is the US good or evil? What kind of reasonable aggregation function could you possibly define that takes as inputs enshrining slavery in the Constitution, the Trail of Tears, later freeing the slaves, the Marshall Plan, etc. and is able to somehow weigh those against each other to produce a single meaningful output?
But it's not at all clear that an intuitive trust or reputation model that works well for individuals scales to something reasonable when applied to groups and institutions.
Bayer (well, IG Farben) made the Zyklon B used in the gas chambers of the Holocaust. Is Bayer still evil even though no one who did that is still there? Can they be forgiven? Should they be? Where does the conscience of an organization reside and how can others tell if it has been remediated? Can an organization feel shame or remorse?
Is the US good or evil? What kind of reasonable aggregation function could you possibly define that takes as inputs enshrining slavery in the Constitution, the Trail of Tears, later freeing the slaves, the Marshall Plan, etc. and is able to somehow weigh those against each other to produce a single meaningful output?
grace or forgiveness?
Forgiveness: Making a big deal about how great you are for not judging someone, making it all about you. I forgive you.
Grace: Getting on with your life and not letting yourself get caught up in someone else’s moral failings. You do you.
Grace: Getting on with your life and not letting yourself get caught up in someone else’s moral failings. You do you.
I can see how forgiveness can be weaponized like that but to me forgiveness is only there to benefit the forgiver. Granted, getting good at forgiveness risks you just becoming a door mat. Similarly, Getting good at grace risks you becoming naive and ignorant to the world around you.
How does this dynamic of grace vs forgiveness interact with genuine feelings of guilt?
There are times in life where we (or people around us) fuck up. Genuine remorse occurs and receiving forgiveness can bring closure as it can signal that a relationship with someone is still there.
I think assuming forgiveness is a one-way interaction may be true in some contexts, but not all.
There are times in life where we (or people around us) fuck up. Genuine remorse occurs and receiving forgiveness can bring closure as it can signal that a relationship with someone is still there.
I think assuming forgiveness is a one-way interaction may be true in some contexts, but not all.
This reply will probably get downvoted, but grace has inherent issues.
Actual grace in Christianity involves becoming a believer, no? That comes with its own set of obligations. Combine this with a culture that jumps at the opportunity to capitalize off of people's misery and you have a recipe for self destruction. Look at the pharma companies poisoning this country with opiates if you want an example
Grace requires a level of trust that isn't possible in the current economic configuration
Actual grace in Christianity involves becoming a believer, no? That comes with its own set of obligations. Combine this with a culture that jumps at the opportunity to capitalize off of people's misery and you have a recipe for self destruction. Look at the pharma companies poisoning this country with opiates if you want an example
Grace requires a level of trust that isn't possible in the current economic configuration
An apology is useless if it is not accompanied by a change in behavior. Actually, worse than useless as it is an insult. I know what I am doing is wrong but I am not changing.
Large public apologies are performance art.
Large public apologies are performance art.
This is the actual problem. We're doing Goodhart's Law with self-improvement. In a lot of cases, particularly concrerning people with power/clout, those people are never going to change. But they can make a vague simulation of it that hits the metrics. And now we've reached the stage where they can simply farm that process out to paid help, so they don't even have to do the simulation themselves.
That came up in the Freakonomics episode about apologies. If you make a promise but fail to deliver, the result will be worse than just not apologizing at all.
> Large public apologies are performance art.
But this is the use, and so it isn't useless. Not everyone who compels a public apology actually cares whether the accused feels genuine remorse. They want to enforce a cultural standard because they think that cultural standard is a good thing.
But this is the use, and so it isn't useless. Not everyone who compels a public apology actually cares whether the accused feels genuine remorse. They want to enforce a cultural standard because they think that cultural standard is a good thing.
Apologies don't necessarily imply wrongdoing.
An apology can be issued to acknowledge inconvenience or understanding, or to indicate someone is being heard. You can apologize for not changing or for disagreeing.
An apology can be issued to acknowledge inconvenience or understanding, or to indicate someone is being heard. You can apologize for not changing or for disagreeing.
Example: "I'm sorry to say this but" ...
Means you acknowledge the hurt saying something will cause but you still need to say it. because it needs to be said.
Means you acknowledge the hurt saying something will cause but you still need to say it. because it needs to be said.
If something truly 'needs to be said', the sayer believes it has greater value for the hearer than not saying it, eg 'I'm sorry to say this but I don't want to drink with you any more because you're an alcoholic.' The non-apology the other poster is talking about is professing to be sorry about something while having no intention of remediating or changing the offensive behavior.
I don't mean to be rude, but a friend of mine used to begin a criticism with "I don't mean to be rude, but ...". He did it so much it became a meme in the office, and people would laugh whenever he opened with that.
He finally stopped :-)
He finally stopped :-)
No it means you pretend to apologise but are really talking more shit. Everyone knows the part before the "but" is passive aggressive window dressing and means nothing.
That's a very unusual reaction to something that simply reflects good manners.
"I'm sorry to say this" is just a polite way to express real displeasure for the fact that people sometimes have strong opinions, but they can be wrong at the same time, but in some cases they get easily offended when more knowledgeable people or simply more thoughtful people point it out.
So starting by saying sorry does not refer to the person they are answering to specifically, but to the larger aufince that is listening, because they'll have to hear something that is probably obvious to the majority, but not to that particular very wrong and aggressive person
Simply because they are trying to be polite.
Also.
The part before "but" counts as much as everything else, or the English language would not contain the word "but".
I'm sorry yo say this, but quoting GOT it's not deep.
An apology doesn't mean you did something wrong, many times it means you're doing something that did not want to do, but need to do and it's gonna hurt someone.
I'm sorry sir, but your parking is expired, I have to give you a ticket.
Apologizing on a social network to your 4 million followed because you have a vegan channel but in reality you are not vegan, have no intentions to become one and also find them pathetic, it's not an apology, it's damage control and trying to control the narrative, there's no space for real feelings at that point.
Real apologies are between people who know each other and love each other and do not want to lose each other over their ego.
So in conclusion most of the time apologies are a formalism, an ice breaker "sorry, what's your name again?" you are not really sorry. You just don't rember who that person is, but sorry works better than "hey you insignificant NPC my boss said I had to do this thing, but I don't care and I will forget your name in... what's your name again?"
Finally, I'm also sorry to say this, but the article is a puff piece for wanna be PR of the rich and famous and the authors should apologize for it.
The only time you should ask yourself "is this a good apology?" is when you are writing one for someone else.
"I'm sorry to say this" is just a polite way to express real displeasure for the fact that people sometimes have strong opinions, but they can be wrong at the same time, but in some cases they get easily offended when more knowledgeable people or simply more thoughtful people point it out.
So starting by saying sorry does not refer to the person they are answering to specifically, but to the larger aufince that is listening, because they'll have to hear something that is probably obvious to the majority, but not to that particular very wrong and aggressive person
Simply because they are trying to be polite.
Also.
The part before "but" counts as much as everything else, or the English language would not contain the word "but".
I'm sorry yo say this, but quoting GOT it's not deep.
An apology doesn't mean you did something wrong, many times it means you're doing something that did not want to do, but need to do and it's gonna hurt someone.
I'm sorry sir, but your parking is expired, I have to give you a ticket.
Apologizing on a social network to your 4 million followed because you have a vegan channel but in reality you are not vegan, have no intentions to become one and also find them pathetic, it's not an apology, it's damage control and trying to control the narrative, there's no space for real feelings at that point.
Real apologies are between people who know each other and love each other and do not want to lose each other over their ego.
So in conclusion most of the time apologies are a formalism, an ice breaker "sorry, what's your name again?" you are not really sorry. You just don't rember who that person is, but sorry works better than "hey you insignificant NPC my boss said I had to do this thing, but I don't care and I will forget your name in... what's your name again?"
Finally, I'm also sorry to say this, but the article is a puff piece for wanna be PR of the rich and famous and the authors should apologize for it.
The only time you should ask yourself "is this a good apology?" is when you are writing one for someone else.
I'm sorry but I disagree.
Yes, and audiences love performance art. They don't even really hate the actor for what they did, they enjoy the vengeful feelings i guess. Everything is molded to please the public.
It's not the public who is pleased. It's the talking heads, the newsroom bosses, the politicians, the corporate officers. The people who can spread the message that the public is pleased, regardless of whether the public is actually pleased.
And as long as the public is not incredibly angry, they'll mostly just quietly go along with it, because it's not worth fighting against. But they're not the source.
It's manufactured forgiveness.
And as long as the public is not incredibly angry, they'll mostly just quietly go along with it, because it's not worth fighting against. But they're not the source.
It's manufactured forgiveness.
Forgiveness as a kind of mourning makes sense, but is counter-intuitive.
I think we've come to regard "forgiveness" as inevitably ending with reconsiliation. But perhaps, more often, it shouldnt.
That is, forgiveness is how I see the other when I see them not as an enemy or friend, but as a tragic part of nature. I have moved on. Our ability to forgive has, perhaps, been distorted by the perception that it's an act of kindness. I think, rather, it's the most rutheless form of grief there is.
Another insight from the article is apology as a kind of non-violent humilitation. And the idea that apology even as a cultural expectation is somewhat rare and somewhat contingent on the era.
This, again, makes sense but feels counter-intutive.
What would a society look like which forgives without apologies? Perhaps one much better at moving on, much better at focusing on outcomes rather than obsessing about status.
Perhaps the "purpetrator" doesnt need to apologise, we can just forgive them and punish them at once. We punish not to humiliate as an act of vengence, but as a necessary step to a better outcome. Eg., firing a dangerous boss, breaking up with a partner, etc.
I think we've come to regard "forgiveness" as inevitably ending with reconsiliation. But perhaps, more often, it shouldnt.
That is, forgiveness is how I see the other when I see them not as an enemy or friend, but as a tragic part of nature. I have moved on. Our ability to forgive has, perhaps, been distorted by the perception that it's an act of kindness. I think, rather, it's the most rutheless form of grief there is.
Another insight from the article is apology as a kind of non-violent humilitation. And the idea that apology even as a cultural expectation is somewhat rare and somewhat contingent on the era.
This, again, makes sense but feels counter-intutive.
What would a society look like which forgives without apologies? Perhaps one much better at moving on, much better at focusing on outcomes rather than obsessing about status.
Perhaps the "purpetrator" doesnt need to apologise, we can just forgive them and punish them at once. We punish not to humiliate as an act of vengence, but as a necessary step to a better outcome. Eg., firing a dangerous boss, breaking up with a partner, etc.
I think it's easier described as a dismissal of the other as unimportant. I don't know that I would give it the moniker forgiveness, but it absolutely means you've moved on.
For example, an idea I live by is giving enough trust such that if the other person breaks that trust you've gained more than you've lost. A trite example would be letting a co-worker borrow $20. If they never pay you back you've gained more value from that than the $20 loss. Or if you have cleaners come into your home, if they steal that $5 sitting on the desk then you've gained much more you've lost.
From personal experience, through a bad set of circumstances, I once had a cat I loved very much scared up into a tree that hung over the privacy fence over the neighbors yard, who had a large dog. Long story short, the neighber was up in the tree, removed the cat, it fell into his yard, and the dog killed it. I wasn't there at the time since said neighbor was supposed to come and get me when he was ready (he had a friend who trimmed trees for a living supposed to come over). When I came over, he had the dog chained up in a corner so I could safely walk into the yard.
I was extremely sad over the cat, I spent over $2k in emergency surgery trying to save her. My gf to this day can't talk about her without crying and it's been years.
But I never got angry with the neighbor. Was it on purpose or just sheer stupidity? I honestly don't care, I can engage in an impotent rage or completely dismiss them as unimportant. I chose the latter. I was able to live next to that same neighbor for 3-4 more years, although we never had any other interactions.
quite frankly, they're not important enough for me to expend the energy on them.
For example, an idea I live by is giving enough trust such that if the other person breaks that trust you've gained more than you've lost. A trite example would be letting a co-worker borrow $20. If they never pay you back you've gained more value from that than the $20 loss. Or if you have cleaners come into your home, if they steal that $5 sitting on the desk then you've gained much more you've lost.
From personal experience, through a bad set of circumstances, I once had a cat I loved very much scared up into a tree that hung over the privacy fence over the neighbors yard, who had a large dog. Long story short, the neighber was up in the tree, removed the cat, it fell into his yard, and the dog killed it. I wasn't there at the time since said neighbor was supposed to come and get me when he was ready (he had a friend who trimmed trees for a living supposed to come over). When I came over, he had the dog chained up in a corner so I could safely walk into the yard.
I was extremely sad over the cat, I spent over $2k in emergency surgery trying to save her. My gf to this day can't talk about her without crying and it's been years.
But I never got angry with the neighbor. Was it on purpose or just sheer stupidity? I honestly don't care, I can engage in an impotent rage or completely dismiss them as unimportant. I chose the latter. I was able to live next to that same neighbor for 3-4 more years, although we never had any other interactions.
quite frankly, they're not important enough for me to expend the energy on them.
That story is heartbreaking, and such a good example of what to do with grief. Grieving about the thing that hurts has a terminus, emotionally; bearing a grudge 'pins' the grief to you, holding it in place indefinitely.
People may be slow to forgive as they may think it gives something to the other, a type of concession, an admission of something, something on one side of an equation.
But forgiveness mainly gives something to oneself not the other. It frees oneself from that hold over oneself.
Apologies, if they are expected, are expected within the frame of a transaction. But forgiveness which doesn't seek something from the other can be given without an apology.
The person who is forgiven doesn't need to know they are forgiven. Even if they are told, the feeling of freedom and the actual forgiveness comes before that.
But forgiveness mainly gives something to oneself not the other. It frees oneself from that hold over oneself.
Apologies, if they are expected, are expected within the frame of a transaction. But forgiveness which doesn't seek something from the other can be given without an apology.
The person who is forgiven doesn't need to know they are forgiven. Even if they are told, the feeling of freedom and the actual forgiveness comes before that.
> The person who is forgiven doesn't need to know they are forgiven. Even if they are told, the feeling of freedom and the actual forgiveness comes before that.
I was with you until this last bit. My experience is that people will beg for forgiveness. Even if you forgive them, you’ll then find it’s reconciliation they were after. They will then ignore your forgiveness, or rather continue asking for it until you provide them a sense of reconciliation. I usually cut ties by then. They typically don’t really care how you feel and it’s all to boost their own ego and right the wrongs they’ve inflicted in their own mind.
Maybe not universally applicable but my experiences seem to follow this pattern.
I was with you until this last bit. My experience is that people will beg for forgiveness. Even if you forgive them, you’ll then find it’s reconciliation they were after. They will then ignore your forgiveness, or rather continue asking for it until you provide them a sense of reconciliation. I usually cut ties by then. They typically don’t really care how you feel and it’s all to boost their own ego and right the wrongs they’ve inflicted in their own mind.
Maybe not universally applicable but my experiences seem to follow this pattern.
apologies are supposed to be an acknowledgement that they wronged you and letting them know you forgive them allows them to have closure so THEY can move on with their lives (emotionally).
We use it as the grease between the wheels for smaller things because we can't know what's in each others heads. And for larger things, it allows both parties to move on.
To forgive without letting the other person know is absolutely about punishment (assuming they're alive, available, etc).
I had a brother who had a fiance that left him, when she went to get remarried she sent him an email basically apologizing for all the shitty things she did and asking for forgiveness. he came to me in tears asking what he should do and I told him not to respond. Don't give her that closure, she wants to start her new life "clean".
I have no idea what he ended up doing, he never told me. Knowing him, he most likely did respond, but my point is that I viewed her apology as selfish and would have preferred she never got that closure.
We use it as the grease between the wheels for smaller things because we can't know what's in each others heads. And for larger things, it allows both parties to move on.
To forgive without letting the other person know is absolutely about punishment (assuming they're alive, available, etc).
I had a brother who had a fiance that left him, when she went to get remarried she sent him an email basically apologizing for all the shitty things she did and asking for forgiveness. he came to me in tears asking what he should do and I told him not to respond. Don't give her that closure, she wants to start her new life "clean".
I have no idea what he ended up doing, he never told me. Knowing him, he most likely did respond, but my point is that I viewed her apology as selfish and would have preferred she never got that closure.
>> but my point is that I viewed her apology as selfish and would have preferred she never got that closure.
I have never believed one could receive forgiveness from another. Forgiveness comes from the self. In order to move on - from guilt or harm - we must forgive ourselves. Forgive our guilt, our shame, our self-blame; whatever we blame ourselves for our part in it - even if that part was being in the wrong place at the wrong time or trusting the wrong person. Forgiving only the other person doesn't solve the real harm we do to ourselves. I think it's an overlooked part of healing.
I understand the desire to want her to suffer for the hurt she caused your brother. However, in this context, I see it as her giving herself closure from the guilt by sending the apology. Acknowledgment from the other is not necessary (but maybe would have been nice); she had done all that was in her control.
Instead of giving the power to another or waiting for them to maybe provide closure, giving it to ourselves is the most healing thing we can do - no matter which side of the offense we are on.
I have never believed one could receive forgiveness from another. Forgiveness comes from the self. In order to move on - from guilt or harm - we must forgive ourselves. Forgive our guilt, our shame, our self-blame; whatever we blame ourselves for our part in it - even if that part was being in the wrong place at the wrong time or trusting the wrong person. Forgiving only the other person doesn't solve the real harm we do to ourselves. I think it's an overlooked part of healing.
I understand the desire to want her to suffer for the hurt she caused your brother. However, in this context, I see it as her giving herself closure from the guilt by sending the apology. Acknowledgment from the other is not necessary (but maybe would have been nice); she had done all that was in her control.
Instead of giving the power to another or waiting for them to maybe provide closure, giving it to ourselves is the most healing thing we can do - no matter which side of the offense we are on.
What I find interesting is the feeling of honestly forgiving. whatever the other person feels, just simply forgiving someone of some slight or wrong they may or even may not have done to you can be very cathartic. It was only recently in my life it even occurred to me to actually forgive someone rather than just saying the words.
It seems like you may fundamentally agree with the person you are replying to. The person who is forgiven may feel they need to know they are forgiven, but that doesn't mean they actually do. Your example of someone who really wants reconciliation, and has confused it with forgiveness, seems like a good case of someone not actually needing to know they are forgiven, because it's not what they really want or care about anyway.
Good point, this may be the case.
Yes, I think so. Half of my point may be that as, eg., jealous (defensive) has been conflated with envy (offensive); and as social-emotional language appears to have somewhat degraded (where is, today, 'guilt' ?)... likewise, we have conflated forgiveness with reconsiliation.
Where perhaps, in a recent past, to be forgiven was more obviously "to be released from the burden of mattering, one way or another".
A few might, then, genuinely want forgiveness because they feel guilt that you still hate them. But many moreso feel no guilt, what they want is to be reconsiled. To be judged positive and worthwhile.
If this transition has occured, it would line up with the guilt->shame, envy-jealousy, etc. transitions. It would be a co-opting of noble language (genuinely wishing forgiveness) for ignoble selfish reasons (wishing reconsiliation).
I find this thesis prima fascie plausible, in that I feel under-educated in the nobility of guilt, the dangers of envy, and the purpose of forgiveness. An education, i'd say, my great-grandparents certainly had.
Where perhaps, in a recent past, to be forgiven was more obviously "to be released from the burden of mattering, one way or another".
A few might, then, genuinely want forgiveness because they feel guilt that you still hate them. But many moreso feel no guilt, what they want is to be reconsiled. To be judged positive and worthwhile.
If this transition has occured, it would line up with the guilt->shame, envy-jealousy, etc. transitions. It would be a co-opting of noble language (genuinely wishing forgiveness) for ignoble selfish reasons (wishing reconsiliation).
I find this thesis prima fascie plausible, in that I feel under-educated in the nobility of guilt, the dangers of envy, and the purpose of forgiveness. An education, i'd say, my great-grandparents certainly had.
That is, forgiveness is how I see the other when I see them not as an enemy or friend, but as a tragic part of nature. I have moved on.
> Because I have moved on, I don't need to carry the bad feeling around with me anymore
This is my view of forgiveness. It doesn't mean reconcile. It doesn't mean forget. It means releasing the hate or anger towards the person who has wronged you. It does not mean you forget whatever they did -- that's likely impossible. It does not mean that you will trust them again, or trust them to the same degree. It does not mean that you were the one who was wrong to have be offended or hurt by whatever it was that they did (though sometimes it's worth reflecting on that). It simply means that you have moved on, and have released yourself from the pain or anger that surrounds those memories.
Edit: The framing of forgiveness as "canceling a debt" as f154hfds posted in another subthread is a good analogy.
This is my view of forgiveness. It doesn't mean reconcile. It doesn't mean forget. It means releasing the hate or anger towards the person who has wronged you. It does not mean you forget whatever they did -- that's likely impossible. It does not mean that you will trust them again, or trust them to the same degree. It does not mean that you were the one who was wrong to have be offended or hurt by whatever it was that they did (though sometimes it's worth reflecting on that). It simply means that you have moved on, and have released yourself from the pain or anger that surrounds those memories.
Edit: The framing of forgiveness as "canceling a debt" as f154hfds posted in another subthread is a good analogy.
You could put that feeling behind you by automating holding a grudge. Let Grumblebot take care of your anger issues.
def ifPersonaNonGrataPosts(Person NonGrata):
def ifPersonaNonGrataPosts(Person NonGrata):
let ListOfSins = getListOfSins(NonGrata)
for socialMedia in AllSocialMediaAccounts do
socialMedia.post(ListOfSins)I suppose that also aligns when someone seeks forgiveness, they want the forgiver to move on and not hold a grudge.
No, they want to feel better about themselves but feel like they can't unless the other person forgives them.
Forgiveness is about your commitment to move on from the wrong independent on the other person's action. It is more often an ongoing personal effort, and one you should always aim for after allowing space for appropriate anger.
Reconcilliation is about the other person acknowledging the accusation of wrong. A confession of sorts. I'd suggest in the face of sincere apology this is always desirable to reconcile (turn the other cheek and what-not).
Restoration is about returning to the person trust and its associated privildges. Not everyone deserves to be restored depending on what they've done. I would argue the true mark of contrition is an acceptance they may be forgiven but never restored (depending on the nature of offense, of course).
Reconcilliation is about the other person acknowledging the accusation of wrong. A confession of sorts. I'd suggest in the face of sincere apology this is always desirable to reconcile (turn the other cheek and what-not).
Restoration is about returning to the person trust and its associated privildges. Not everyone deserves to be restored depending on what they've done. I would argue the true mark of contrition is an acceptance they may be forgiven but never restored (depending on the nature of offense, of course).
<<Forgiveness is letting go of the hope for a different past>>, various authors or variants of that quote (Iirc I heard it from Andrea Gibson poet).
Anyway, I thought the quote was in line with your "/I/ have moved on" phrasing.
Not sure I really agree with the rest of your statements about grief and forgiveness, nor that I understood all of your intend. But I love this quote and think about it sometimes, and it seems like it would vibe for your conception of forgiveness.
Anyway, I thought the quote was in line with your "/I/ have moved on" phrasing.
Not sure I really agree with the rest of your statements about grief and forgiveness, nor that I understood all of your intend. But I love this quote and think about it sometimes, and it seems like it would vibe for your conception of forgiveness.
What a great quote, thank you.
> That is, forgiveness is how I see the other when I see them not as an enemy or friend, but as a tragic part of nature. I have moved on. Our ability to forgive has, perhaps, been distorted by the perception that it's an act of kindness. I think, rather, it's the most rutheless form of grief there is.
I don't see how forgiveness is ruthless. It takes great compassion to accept people and situations as they are without harboring bitterness, resentment, or judgment. Forgiveness is also a form of self-love.
The non-attachment that comes with forgiveness isn't the same as being cold or moving on by leaving someone else behind. That's still looking at things from an egoic "I have been wronged" narrative. Forgiveness is about dropping that story entirely.
> I think we've come to regard "forgiveness" as inevitably ending with reconsiliation. But perhaps, more often, it shouldnt.
I think in general reconciliation is a good thing, but it's not a given. And even if you do reconcile with someone, you don't have to restore full trust and involvement with them. You can clear the air and never talk to them ever again, or just on a need-to basis, or whatever. It all depends.
In general, our society's difficulty with forgiveness and the like is just another facet of not liking to confront truth. We struggle with truth in this era because the truth is often painful and demands a lot of change out of us that we feel unable or unwilling to give. The Twitter apology is an answer to the question "How do we pay lip service to the truth without having to actually engage with it?"
I don't see how forgiveness is ruthless. It takes great compassion to accept people and situations as they are without harboring bitterness, resentment, or judgment. Forgiveness is also a form of self-love.
The non-attachment that comes with forgiveness isn't the same as being cold or moving on by leaving someone else behind. That's still looking at things from an egoic "I have been wronged" narrative. Forgiveness is about dropping that story entirely.
> I think we've come to regard "forgiveness" as inevitably ending with reconsiliation. But perhaps, more often, it shouldnt.
I think in general reconciliation is a good thing, but it's not a given. And even if you do reconcile with someone, you don't have to restore full trust and involvement with them. You can clear the air and never talk to them ever again, or just on a need-to basis, or whatever. It all depends.
In general, our society's difficulty with forgiveness and the like is just another facet of not liking to confront truth. We struggle with truth in this era because the truth is often painful and demands a lot of change out of us that we feel unable or unwilling to give. The Twitter apology is an answer to the question "How do we pay lip service to the truth without having to actually engage with it?"
Well, from the pov of the person being "detached", to be treated as an object is rutheless.
What we are saying, after all, is that the other is "a mere product" of nature; a symptom, not an agent.
This, I think, is the most "anti-Western" notion 'inside' forgiveness, and why it seems so counter-intutive.
The thing we do not want to give up is that people are agents who bare responsibility for their actions, that people are our objects of concern, that people are special.
When we forgive we, ineffect, dehumanise -- at least, for the moment of that forgiveness. We step outside of a world in which they matter. And that seems a more ruthless and radical gesture than just hating them.
What we are saying, after all, is that the other is "a mere product" of nature; a symptom, not an agent.
This, I think, is the most "anti-Western" notion 'inside' forgiveness, and why it seems so counter-intutive.
The thing we do not want to give up is that people are agents who bare responsibility for their actions, that people are our objects of concern, that people are special.
When we forgive we, ineffect, dehumanise -- at least, for the moment of that forgiveness. We step outside of a world in which they matter. And that seems a more ruthless and radical gesture than just hating them.
Extending forgiveness is ruthless indeed.
Thomas Hobbes makes the following observation in leviathan, that is thoroughly depressing and at first perhaps paradoxical. A person who wronged you will only ever be able to hate you afterwards: either because of fear for your vengeance, or because of distaste for your forgiveness.
The positive action of forgiveness only applies to those who extend it; those who are forgiven are rendered impotent. it's somewhat of a manipulative act if it's not accompanied by magnanimity and reconciliation.
Thomas Hobbes makes the following observation in leviathan, that is thoroughly depressing and at first perhaps paradoxical. A person who wronged you will only ever be able to hate you afterwards: either because of fear for your vengeance, or because of distaste for your forgiveness.
The positive action of forgiveness only applies to those who extend it; those who are forgiven are rendered impotent. it's somewhat of a manipulative act if it's not accompanied by magnanimity and reconciliation.
>I don't see how forgiveness is ruthless
for that type of person, what it really means = you're dead to me
hence why they mention mourning as a key feeling. I think I'm like this too.
for that type of person, what it really means = you're dead to me
hence why they mention mourning as a key feeling. I think I'm like this too.
That is how I see forgiveness also, a letting go of the issue at hand, almost a delegation of the reconciliation to the other party. It's their problem to think over now.
I have a past business partner who more or less, stole all our gear and fled. I let them know how I felt, but told them I wouldn't be actioning it any further than that. I let them know the social consequences of their actions were absolute, there's no way I'd treat them as a friend or work with them again, but I understood why they felt they needed to do it and I hope they find themselves in a better place.
I have a past business partner who more or less, stole all our gear and fled. I let them know how I felt, but told them I wouldn't be actioning it any further than that. I let them know the social consequences of their actions were absolute, there's no way I'd treat them as a friend or work with them again, but I understood why they felt they needed to do it and I hope they find themselves in a better place.
That is, forgiveness is how I see the other when I see them not as an enemy or friend, but as a tragic part of nature.
To me, that's more a part of the reconciliation process than of forgiveness. It doesn't require forgiveness to abandon the other and move on. I rather think that forgiveness is the first step to restore the mutual relationship, it's a willful act to salvage what was broken. I guess in my mind, reconciliation is a prerequisite for forgiveness, but whereas reconciliation is about the self, forgiveness is about the other -- or at least the relationship with the other.
To me, that's more a part of the reconciliation process than of forgiveness. It doesn't require forgiveness to abandon the other and move on. I rather think that forgiveness is the first step to restore the mutual relationship, it's a willful act to salvage what was broken. I guess in my mind, reconciliation is a prerequisite for forgiveness, but whereas reconciliation is about the self, forgiveness is about the other -- or at least the relationship with the other.
To forgive is to let go of our own disturbances about the situation, and we may choose to never tell the subject of the forgiveness. Whether we wish to continue/rebuild a relationship with the subject doesn't need to depend on whether we are undisturbed.
> That is, forgiveness is how I see the other when I see them not as an enemy or friend, but as a tragic part of nature.
This is the Christian conception, and I think it's a very helpful way to think about forgiveness.
This is the Christian conception, and I think it's a very helpful way to think about forgiveness.
>We punish not to humiliate as an act of vengence
No, I think that's exactly how the Twitter mob operates. These people treat politics as some sort of religious war.
No, I think that's exactly how the Twitter mob operates. These people treat politics as some sort of religious war.
Politics and religion aren't very far apart. In some parts of the world they are nearly the same thing. Elsewhere, the belief in deities is the main differentiator, and even there it can get blurry, based on how some supporters seem to worship their leaders almost as gods.
Apologizing to a mob never makes sense. You just make the other mob angry and most of the current mob doesn't think you're authentic anyways.
Or, as the article says, "It was either not enough or, oh, my God, please stop.".
Trying to placate a mob is pointless.
Be authentic (apologize if you really mean it), otherwise stand your ground and stay still. The mob will move on eventually. They are fickle and easily distracted. If you stay still? they'll move on. If you dart around? You're a target for the pack. Let them find the next target.
Or, as the article says, "It was either not enough or, oh, my God, please stop.".
Trying to placate a mob is pointless.
Be authentic (apologize if you really mean it), otherwise stand your ground and stay still. The mob will move on eventually. They are fickle and easily distracted. If you stay still? they'll move on. If you dart around? You're a target for the pack. Let them find the next target.
A great way to think about any discussion on the public internet to be honest. Everything you say on twitter is to a mob, and within that mob is a very diverse group of people, not all of them working with the same perspective or even the same context and goals as you.
There's that joke about using accidentally using Personality A with Friend Group B; with the modern social internet, you're talking to every friend group at the same time and I think that's why we have such defensive pretense, placation and weasel wording going on. You lose all nuance, and you also lose benefit of the doubt.
I think that's what is missing on broadcast platforms like FB/Twitter et al, and why Discord has been such a hit. Discord gives you discrete friend groups, so you can form deeper more nuanced dialogues about topics over a long period of time.
There's that joke about using accidentally using Personality A with Friend Group B; with the modern social internet, you're talking to every friend group at the same time and I think that's why we have such defensive pretense, placation and weasel wording going on. You lose all nuance, and you also lose benefit of the doubt.
I think that's what is missing on broadcast platforms like FB/Twitter et al, and why Discord has been such a hit. Discord gives you discrete friend groups, so you can form deeper more nuanced dialogues about topics over a long period of time.
Exactly, this integrity and sincerity is what is missing with this stuff. These people are apologizing out of fear, not because they feel it’s the right thing to do.
Insincerity should be the expected outcome from bullying people via socioeconomic pressure into making public apologies.
Forcing someone to make a public statement via explicit or implicit threat of loss of income or ostracization is playground politics for adults.
Forcing someone to make a public statement via explicit or implicit threat of loss of income or ostracization is playground politics for adults.
If you make your money based on how popular you are, you are going to lose money, one way or another, if you start pissing off lots of people.
Bullying and playground politics just isn't the right way to think about this.
Kyrie, e.g., put the economic pressure on himself. Nike sells shoes. They don't want to pay him anymore because he can't sell shoes nearly as well now, and might impact their ability to sell shoes long-term. Regarding the Nets and NBA, Kyrie's many million dollar contract isn't exactly for playing basketball. It's for his ability to get lots and lots of people to want to watch basketball. When he pissed off a lot of people he doesn't do that very well, and his value as a basketball player drops.
Bullying and playground politics just isn't the right way to think about this.
Kyrie, e.g., put the economic pressure on himself. Nike sells shoes. They don't want to pay him anymore because he can't sell shoes nearly as well now, and might impact their ability to sell shoes long-term. Regarding the Nets and NBA, Kyrie's many million dollar contract isn't exactly for playing basketball. It's for his ability to get lots and lots of people to want to watch basketball. When he pissed off a lot of people he doesn't do that very well, and his value as a basketball player drops.
Yes, and? Again, this is just an explanation of why one should expect insincere apologies - because the apology is being made for financial reasons, not genuine contrition.
I don't disagree that insincere apologies usually don't work very well.
My point is that the "socioeconomic pressure" in many cases has nothing to do "bullying," "threats," or "playground politics". It can be self-inflicted: If you lower your value to the people who give you money, they will no longer want to give you as much money.
My point is that the "socioeconomic pressure" in many cases has nothing to do "bullying," "threats," or "playground politics". It can be self-inflicted: If you lower your value to the people who give you money, they will no longer want to give you as much money.
Well if this take away from my spins // Which'll probably take away from my ends // Then I hope this take away from my sins
When I do it to you it's free speech, when you do it to me it's bullying.
It's not a "culture" issue imho. The mainstream basically decided to promote those staged "apologies", signaling to other celebrities that they should act like that, and they did.
What the mainstream promotes is culture. Contemporary culture at the very least.
hey no, that may look like that in america, but even there it is not true, the deep cultural characteristics of americans (e.g. hard work) won't change if the media tells them so. Popular culture is not the whole of culture in general
I did not say it was the whole of culture. I said it was culture. In English, saying something "is" something does not mean it is only that, or that it is all of that.
Don't apologize publicly. It's pointless. It only matters to people who spend their time on the Internet arguing over whether apologies are good (they never are).
Apologize to people if you must, but never to the public.
Apologize to people if you must, but never to the public.
> Whose P.R.-purposed apology was worse? Al Franken’s or Louis C.K.’s? ... At SorryWatch.com and @SorryWatch, Susan McCarthy and Marjorie Ingall have been
Let's take a look at what they say about those two, at https://sorrywatch.com/al-and-louie/ .
Franken's first apology was a not-pology. The second is described as, on the whole, a good apology.
As for Louis C.K.'s: "People! He never says he’s sorry! So many words, and none of them are “I’m sorry” or “I apologize”!"
And from https://sorrywatch.com/a-roundup-of-good-celebrity-apologies... : "Look, I’m feeling kinda demoralized by people thinking Louis CK apologized well, what with him not actually saying he was sorry. (As we note repeatedly here, REGRET IS NOT APOLOGY, chant it with me.)
I don't see how the author of this piece connects Franken's apology to "performed remorse". How are we to conclude it wasn't an expression of real remorse?
Let's take a look at what they say about those two, at https://sorrywatch.com/al-and-louie/ .
Franken's first apology was a not-pology. The second is described as, on the whole, a good apology.
As for Louis C.K.'s: "People! He never says he’s sorry! So many words, and none of them are “I’m sorry” or “I apologize”!"
And from https://sorrywatch.com/a-roundup-of-good-celebrity-apologies... : "Look, I’m feeling kinda demoralized by people thinking Louis CK apologized well, what with him not actually saying he was sorry. (As we note repeatedly here, REGRET IS NOT APOLOGY, chant it with me.)
I don't see how the author of this piece connects Franken's apology to "performed remorse". How are we to conclude it wasn't an expression of real remorse?
Weird, it seems the authors don't even know what an apology is or an i'm sorry is. Everyone can say "I'm Sorry" it means so many things that in reality it means nothing. Regret and admittance of wrongdoing is the point of an apology, it means the individual knows their actions were wrong, and they would take them back. That's much better than an "I'm Sorry", which usually means, "really wish you wouldn't feel so bad" or "lets move past this".
The "regret is not apology" seems to refer to a specific type of regret. That is, https://sorrywatch.com/regret-is-not-apology-karl/ says:
> Regret is all about you; apology is all about another person’s feelings. Regret stands alone; apology reaches out to someone else. Also, shut up with the whole “regret the controversy” business. That phrase just means, “I’m irked at other people.” Regret your actions, then apologize for them. Do not say you regret other people’s responses to your being an asshole.
Note that it contains "regret" used two different ways.
Your "admittance of wrongdoing" is part of "regret your actions", while that chant concerns "regret other people’s responses".
You can see the book authors' "The Six Steps to a Good Apology" at https://sorrywatch.com/ . Your "knows their actions are wrong" is "2. Say specifically what you’re sorry FOR" and your "would take them back" is likely closest to "5. Explain the actions you’re taking to insure this won’t happen again."
(See also https://sorrywatch.com/the-parts-of-a-good-apology/ .)
Thing is, I don't think the author of the New Yorker piece really addresses the points of the book, but instead uses it as a stepping stone to a very different interpretation of the topic, and lumping the book into a lumpy mishmash of religion and Twitter mobs.
Which that book ... doesn't seem to be about.
The web site gives an example of a good apology that Lincoln gave to Grant, at https://sorrywatch.com/when-lincoln-was-wrong/ , and commentary on Grant's poor apology for ordering the expulsion of Jews from the Department of Tennessee, followed by his actions which help make up for that apology.
> Regret is all about you; apology is all about another person’s feelings. Regret stands alone; apology reaches out to someone else. Also, shut up with the whole “regret the controversy” business. That phrase just means, “I’m irked at other people.” Regret your actions, then apologize for them. Do not say you regret other people’s responses to your being an asshole.
Note that it contains "regret" used two different ways.
Your "admittance of wrongdoing" is part of "regret your actions", while that chant concerns "regret other people’s responses".
You can see the book authors' "The Six Steps to a Good Apology" at https://sorrywatch.com/ . Your "knows their actions are wrong" is "2. Say specifically what you’re sorry FOR" and your "would take them back" is likely closest to "5. Explain the actions you’re taking to insure this won’t happen again."
(See also https://sorrywatch.com/the-parts-of-a-good-apology/ .)
Thing is, I don't think the author of the New Yorker piece really addresses the points of the book, but instead uses it as a stepping stone to a very different interpretation of the topic, and lumping the book into a lumpy mishmash of religion and Twitter mobs.
Which that book ... doesn't seem to be about.
The web site gives an example of a good apology that Lincoln gave to Grant, at https://sorrywatch.com/when-lincoln-was-wrong/ , and commentary on Grant's poor apology for ordering the expulsion of Jews from the Department of Tennessee, followed by his actions which help make up for that apology.
the only winning move is not to play. If you find yourself at the receiving end of a fully motivated twitter mob the way out is waiting for the mob to find another target and then picking up the pieces.
I've always fantasized about a facebook like dirty laundry website. basically a place where people freely and anonymously perform slander and indicate all the wrongdoings of everyone. Not unlike what we have now, but organized. It would either completely break some people, or show how incredibly hypocritical mob justice is with their public shaming.
This is pure internet gossip cancer... It's great. Now they just need to clean it up and be more facebook like and done.
Forgiveness in the Bible is formalized as a cancelled debt: the act of forgiveness is when you decide to eat the cost of a debt owed (Matthew 18:21-35). I think forgiveness is mostly misunderstood by our society. It has several implications:
1. Forgiveness does not equate to trust or even reconciliation. If I lent you $1000 and you never paid me back, I might forgive your debt but will be much less inclined to trust you with my money in the future.
2. Forgiveness absolutely does not necessitate repentance of the perpetrator. In the Bible forgiveness is a necessity regardless of the situation because the Bible treats the inability of a Christian to forgive the ultimate hypocrisy (Matthew 6:14-15).
3. Wronging another person (or yourself - this might be far more common) does tangible harm to them. This harm is analogous to a financial debt owed. This debt is on the cosmic books so to speak: it's very real and must be dealt with either by forgiveness or retributive justice (or a combination of the two). Restorative justice is important but can't fix the original debt.
4. An apology no matter how sincere can't undo the debt either, it is usually impossible to make it right (unlike a financial debt which can be repaid). Society misses this at its own peril: forgiveness trumps apologies every time, this is the nature of wrongdoing. If anything we downplay how hard it is to make things right! As if a few well chosen words and humiliation could undo Will Smith's Slap? It can't work because it doesn't go back in time and change history to make the thing not happen!
5. Repentance makes it easier to forgive (it enables the victim and the perpetrator to meet in the middle), but it's always going to be hard to tell if repentance is genuine. See point 2.
1. Forgiveness does not equate to trust or even reconciliation. If I lent you $1000 and you never paid me back, I might forgive your debt but will be much less inclined to trust you with my money in the future.
2. Forgiveness absolutely does not necessitate repentance of the perpetrator. In the Bible forgiveness is a necessity regardless of the situation because the Bible treats the inability of a Christian to forgive the ultimate hypocrisy (Matthew 6:14-15).
3. Wronging another person (or yourself - this might be far more common) does tangible harm to them. This harm is analogous to a financial debt owed. This debt is on the cosmic books so to speak: it's very real and must be dealt with either by forgiveness or retributive justice (or a combination of the two). Restorative justice is important but can't fix the original debt.
4. An apology no matter how sincere can't undo the debt either, it is usually impossible to make it right (unlike a financial debt which can be repaid). Society misses this at its own peril: forgiveness trumps apologies every time, this is the nature of wrongdoing. If anything we downplay how hard it is to make things right! As if a few well chosen words and humiliation could undo Will Smith's Slap? It can't work because it doesn't go back in time and change history to make the thing not happen!
5. Repentance makes it easier to forgive (it enables the victim and the perpetrator to meet in the middle), but it's always going to be hard to tell if repentance is genuine. See point 2.
> This debt is on the cosmic books so to speak: it's very real and must be dealt with either by forgiveness or retributive justice (or a combination of the two). Restorative justice is important but can't fix the original debt.
Retributive justice can't fix the debt, either - it just makes more people hurt than before.
Retributive justice can't fix the debt, either - it just makes more people hurt than before.
> An apology no matter how sincere can't undo the debt either, it is usually impossible to make it right (unlike a financial debt which can be repaid).
Often illustrated as "you can't un-ring a bell"
You can sincerely regret having done something harmful, but rarely does that undo the harm.
Often illustrated as "you can't un-ring a bell"
You can sincerely regret having done something harmful, but rarely does that undo the harm.
Speaking of apologies, one of the best is from Octave from OVH when one of their datacenters caught fire, with the consequences you can imagine for customers who rented servers there.
It has a short "I apologize" introduction, the rest is technical details about the situation, what is being done to resolve it, and giving credits to employees who are dealing with the problem. What I find appreciable is that Octave is not talking about his own person, he talks as the representative and leader of a company.
The video: https://www.ovh.com/fr/images/sbg/index-en.html
It has a short "I apologize" introduction, the rest is technical details about the situation, what is being done to resolve it, and giving credits to employees who are dealing with the problem. What I find appreciable is that Octave is not talking about his own person, he talks as the representative and leader of a company.
The video: https://www.ovh.com/fr/images/sbg/index-en.html
Has anybody well-known ever used a phrase like "For my own personal safety, I apologize for XYZ transgression" when apologizing to a Twitter mob? Kind of curious how that simultaneous apology and subtle call-out might work.
That'd make no sense to do. The "Twitter mob" remains angry and now a few more people are annoyed that you openly gave a non-apology.
The reason I brought up that phrase is that Scott Adams of the Dilbert cartoon endorsed Hillary in 2016 using this exact language, despite actually liking Trump.
> "So I’ve decided to endorse Hillary Clinton for President, for my personal safety."
If I recall correctly, he says that merely that endorsement, however transparently fake it was, got a lot of people off of his back.
> "So I’ve decided to endorse Hillary Clinton for President, for my personal safety."
If I recall correctly, he says that merely that endorsement, however transparently fake it was, got a lot of people off of his back.
Huh, people are weird!
The same can be said for things like diversity statements. You know exactly what you are supposed to say and any deviation will be punished . It’s just a formality you have to perform correctly.
The problem is that a non-trivial segment of the population does believe it with zealous devotion. They've attended the diversity seminaries, taken the oaths, and there is no off-ramp for their faith.
The other problem is politicians cannot differentiate between performative displays and actual values. The end result is that you see diversity quotas elevated above all other priorities and criteria.
The other problem is politicians cannot differentiate between performative displays and actual values. The end result is that you see diversity quotas elevated above all other priorities and criteria.
>The problem is that a non-trivial segment of the population does believe it with zealous devotion
Yes, but the diversity statements are not meant to separate the ordained from the masses, it's to ensure that actual heretics (or just those who are not properly accultured to understand what constitutes a transgression of social justice etiquette) are filtered.
Yes, but the diversity statements are not meant to separate the ordained from the masses, it's to ensure that actual heretics (or just those who are not properly accultured to understand what constitutes a transgression of social justice etiquette) are filtered.
In other words, we tell lies, to people who pretend to believe them.
Everyone lies and we know it, our companies have mottos and everyone knows they’re fluff, and we teach kids to “thrive in ambiguity”, which is a beautiful phrase I’ve found on a job offer and which I have found symptomatic of our economy.
I still wonder what it was like to live in ex-RDA. Did people tell lies that others pretended to believe?
Everyone lies and we know it, our companies have mottos and everyone knows they’re fluff, and we teach kids to “thrive in ambiguity”, which is a beautiful phrase I’ve found on a job offer and which I have found symptomatic of our economy.
I still wonder what it was like to live in ex-RDA. Did people tell lies that others pretended to believe?
“In other words, we tell lies, to people who pretend to believe them.”
The same happens at corporations. When you are in planning meetings you often know the politically correct answer already. If you say it will actually take five times longer you are out of the inner circle. That although everybody knows that it will take that long. Seems the whole hierarchy is one big circle where everybody bullshits each other and knows it.
The same happens at corporations. When you are in planning meetings you often know the politically correct answer already. If you say it will actually take five times longer you are out of the inner circle. That although everybody knows that it will take that long. Seems the whole hierarchy is one big circle where everybody bullshits each other and knows it.
ya
hehe
I had to be
it's what reputations are made of, to some extent
I feel bad for those who get f*** by it
by this dumb game we woke westerners play where we say all the right shiboleths and so everyone likes us
hehe
I had to be
it's what reputations are made of, to some extent
I feel bad for those who get f*** by it
by this dumb game we woke westerners play where we say all the right shiboleths and so everyone likes us
Note to down voters: this is a (relevant) direct quote from SBF's interview in Vox. [0]
[0] https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23462333/sam-bankman-frie...
[0] https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23462333/sam-bankman-frie...
> by this dumb game we woke westerners play where we say all the right shiboleths and so everyone likes us
Unfortunately, the people who treat it like a game like SBF are the ones who make it in business and in politics. There's no need to have ethics if it's sufficient just to act like you do. Reminds me of Kyrsten Sinema who played the part until she had the job.
Unfortunately, the people who treat it like a game like SBF are the ones who make it in business and in politics. There's no need to have ethics if it's sufficient just to act like you do. Reminds me of Kyrsten Sinema who played the part until she had the job.
I gotta say that removing the context from this sort of changes its meaning in a misleading way for those seeing it for the first time. It makes perfect sense in this context as well but some people have interpreted this as a sort of nihilism, but it’s actually an endorsement of pure utilitarianism, more or less.
Which doesn’t make it better, my big take away from all the FTX stuff is that SBF and friends were just uh, not that smart, just dipshits losing other peoples money and thinking everything in life was as easy as impressing brainless VCs. (With some actual on purpose fraud mixed in as well, who knows)
Which doesn’t make it better, my big take away from all the FTX stuff is that SBF and friends were just uh, not that smart, just dipshits losing other peoples money and thinking everything in life was as easy as impressing brainless VCs. (With some actual on purpose fraud mixed in as well, who knows)
> pure utilitarianism
> a sort of nihilism
The SBF saga is a great example of how easily the former degenerates into the latter. We're talking about someone who graduated MIT. He clearly has some amount of smarts and personal drive. "He's just a dipshit" is not an adequate explanation.
Though, yeah, he ends up a dipshit at the end of the story (presumably).
> a sort of nihilism
The SBF saga is a great example of how easily the former degenerates into the latter. We're talking about someone who graduated MIT. He clearly has some amount of smarts and personal drive. "He's just a dipshit" is not an adequate explanation.
Though, yeah, he ends up a dipshit at the end of the story (presumably).
I wonder if a descent to full-blown Soviet "Vranyo" (brazen lying) can be prevented.
As in: "They lie to us, we know they're lying, they know we know they're lying, but they keep lying to us, and we keep pretending to believe them."
Pretty much the only brake pad on that machine is that capitalism actually requires at least some efficiency from the players, and a web of lies like that will destroy any institution. But I am far from certain.
As in: "They lie to us, we know they're lying, they know we know they're lying, but they keep lying to us, and we keep pretending to believe them."
Pretty much the only brake pad on that machine is that capitalism actually requires at least some efficiency from the players, and a web of lies like that will destroy any institution. But I am far from certain.
I often compare science environments to general environments. In science, if you’re wrong, there’s no pardon: Your rocket doesn’t land on the moon, so you gotta keep your speech clear, your expertise precise, and your reputation perfect. In speech environments, if you’re handwaving it and are dishonest, you win the market.
Science environments are better suited for me, but I get bashed in general environments…
Science environments are better suited for me, but I get bashed in general environments…
There is science and science.
Rocket science is notoriously unforgiving. Nutrition science is pretty much the opposite, a half-hearted attempt to make sense of "garbage in, garbage out".
The difference is in, among others, loopback length. If something goes wrong during a rocket launch, the fireball is only seconds away. Not so much in food and health, where the consequences take decades and multiple causal factors are hard to disentangle.
Rocket science is notoriously unforgiving. Nutrition science is pretty much the opposite, a half-hearted attempt to make sense of "garbage in, garbage out".
The difference is in, among others, loopback length. If something goes wrong during a rocket launch, the fireball is only seconds away. Not so much in food and health, where the consequences take decades and multiple causal factors are hard to disentangle.
Orwell wrote this in a letter in 1944:
"Everywhere the world movement seems to be in the direction of centralised economies which can be made to ‘work’ in an economic sense but which are not democratically organised and which tend to establish a caste system. With this go the horrors of emotional nationalism and a tendency to disbelieve in the existence of objective truth because all the facts have to fit in with the words and prophecies of some infallible fuhrer. Already history has in a sense ceased to exist, ie. there is no such thing as a history of our own times which could be universally accepted, and the exact sciences are endangered as soon as military necessity ceases to keep people up to the mark. Hitler can say that the Jews started the war, and if he survives that will become official history. He can’t say that two and two are five, because for the purposes of, say, ballistics they have to make four. But if the sort of world that I am afraid of arrives, a world of two or three great superstates which are unable to conquer one another, two and two could become five if the fuhrer wished it. That, so far as I can see, is the direction in which we are actually moving, though, of course, the process is reversible."
"Everywhere the world movement seems to be in the direction of centralised economies which can be made to ‘work’ in an economic sense but which are not democratically organised and which tend to establish a caste system. With this go the horrors of emotional nationalism and a tendency to disbelieve in the existence of objective truth because all the facts have to fit in with the words and prophecies of some infallible fuhrer. Already history has in a sense ceased to exist, ie. there is no such thing as a history of our own times which could be universally accepted, and the exact sciences are endangered as soon as military necessity ceases to keep people up to the mark. Hitler can say that the Jews started the war, and if he survives that will become official history. He can’t say that two and two are five, because for the purposes of, say, ballistics they have to make four. But if the sort of world that I am afraid of arrives, a world of two or three great superstates which are unable to conquer one another, two and two could become five if the fuhrer wished it. That, so far as I can see, is the direction in which we are actually moving, though, of course, the process is reversible."
As I scrolled down the article, my browser reduced the reading area down to ~6.8 lines of content rendered into a rectangle having an area of ~8 square inches. The rest of the screen filled itself with junk.
If anyone from the New Yorker is reading, please tweak the breakpoints on the media queries for the 13" MacBook Air.
:emoji-laughing-at-the-futility-of-such-an-ask:
If anyone from the New Yorker is reading, please tweak the breakpoints on the media queries for the 13" MacBook Air.
:emoji-laughing-at-the-futility-of-such-an-ask:
Performative remorse of those responsible and forgiveness of them without the responsible having to do anything to remedy their deeds are killing the American society. People can do all kinds of evil deeds and misconduct, break their own principles and rules, and they say that they are sorry, and its all 'okay'.
sounds like something far more structural is at play in that case
Indeed. The ghost of the puritan christianity still seems to be plaguing the American society: 'Hard work' is still valued like how puritens valued it, and those who do not 'work hard' are seen as worthless. Which means that the poor, the homeless etc are all sinners and can be ignored. The religious behavior set continues in public discourse as well, with religious mentality of Christianity which teaches that Christians can do no wrong and all those who are not from their own flock are evil. Which is applied to their society and its affairs: The US is 'great' or at the worst, 'okay' even as the society crumbles, and all the targeted enemies of the US are 'horrible evildoers'. When the US does something, its 'okay', but when others do the same thing, its an 'atrocity' etc.
In short, its likely the ghost of puriten christianity and its practice of exceptionalism that elevates itself whereas demeans, smears and makes enemies of all others by projecting all the evils to them.
In short, its likely the ghost of puriten christianity and its practice of exceptionalism that elevates itself whereas demeans, smears and makes enemies of all others by projecting all the evils to them.
Or just capitalism
Oh but that is literally Puritan Christianity repurposed as a modern religion...
Jimmy Swaggart wants a word with you.
Its cultural and Trump epitomized the worst of American sorry not sorry. That is why Twitter mob justice plays a role in accountability and creating hyped outrage.
Funny how the literati have discovered that twitter is bad as soon as their friends no longer run it.
I wonder how we might prevent this things to happen. I suspect it's linked with demography and popularity, something something Dunbar's number related.