American colleges in crisis with enrollment decline largest on record(fortune.com)
fortune.com
American colleges in crisis with enrollment decline largest on record
https://fortune.com/2023/03/09/american-skipping-college-huge-numbers-pandemic-turned-them-off-education/
93 comments
The more effective and quicker and cheaper solution is to get rid of taxpayer funded student loans. The bloat will disappear immediately.
Funded with bloats caused by student loans, many ex-politicians find their job as college administrators.
Cut that lifeline. Then it will revert back to the usual alumni fundraiser cycles for new teaching buildings.
Cut that lifeline. Then it will revert back to the usual alumni fundraiser cycles for new teaching buildings.
If the top executives of the university aren't making 10s of millions of dollars, then it can't be a very good university. We should pay them more, much more, as its the only way to improve post-secondary education.
There should only be a single tenured faculty position and every one else is an adjunct or post-doc who gets paid $500 to teach a course. These adjuncts and post-docs have to work very hard for decades for a chance to be considered on the list to replace the tenured prof when they retire. Think the money that can then be directed to the university president and all the acclaim and prestige that high salary will give to institution. This is the only way forward.
There should only be a single tenured faculty position and every one else is an adjunct or post-doc who gets paid $500 to teach a course. These adjuncts and post-docs have to work very hard for decades for a chance to be considered on the list to replace the tenured prof when they retire. Think the money that can then be directed to the university president and all the acclaim and prestige that high salary will give to institution. This is the only way forward.
that works for companies too! Imagine how much better run they are now than in the '60s when CEOs only got 12x worker salaries.
/s
/s
It’s amazing how the narrative around college has changed in the last few years. We often talk about government policy changes to do stuff like prevent kids from having to deal with college debt. But its presence in the pubic discourse can push kids to seek alternatives to taking those loans.
Between the high tuition fees, the amount of unnecessary or useless degrees and the wokification of nearly all of the admin body, I can see how people are choosing alternatives.
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Fire many of the deep layers
Of administrators and get back to teaching.
The teachers have been getting the short end of the stick for a long time now.
I remember a highschool teacher saying the students were never the reason she was frustrated. It was the administration.
I remember a highschool teacher saying the students were never the reason she was frustrated. It was the administration.
This idea sounds a lot more appealing when nobody has to specify which services they think should be cut.
Everything athletic.
> [Cut] Everything athletic.
Yeah, but then the sports fans would cry "Cut everything musical". The band members would argue "Cut everything on stage", and the drama society would return with "Cut all the sports".
FWIW, I don't think that sports should have a large place in tertiary educational institutions. It is the activity that has minimal positive impact on education, and largely negative educational impact on those people who play sports.
While everything else at university leads to some sort of learning, sports leads to the opposite - blind and uncritical tribalistic support of the university team, purely because "That's our side". That sort of thing results in blind and uncritical tribalistic support of politics later in life.
We want fewer "I support $FOO because I'm part of the $GROUP that must support $FOO", not more.
Yeah, but then the sports fans would cry "Cut everything musical". The band members would argue "Cut everything on stage", and the drama society would return with "Cut all the sports".
FWIW, I don't think that sports should have a large place in tertiary educational institutions. It is the activity that has minimal positive impact on education, and largely negative educational impact on those people who play sports.
While everything else at university leads to some sort of learning, sports leads to the opposite - blind and uncritical tribalistic support of the university team, purely because "That's our side". That sort of thing results in blind and uncritical tribalistic support of politics later in life.
We want fewer "I support $FOO because I'm part of the $GROUP that must support $FOO", not more.
In Europe historically no university has such a large body of sports/teams/etc. You can do without.
But of course there are other factors here, like branding, broadcasting fees and the like that would make it very hard to get rid of now.
Maybe so but in the United States athletics have been a big part of universities for a long time; it is a relatively recent phenomenon that they have been surpassed by professional leagues. I don't think I even agree that there's no benefit to students from having them.
I suspect that wouldn't even be a financially positive decision for universities.
This works for now, but what happens next recession when all those degree requirements return?
This isn't meant as judgemental, but people only employable due to the labour shortage and only accepted into their field due to the labour shortage are also the people who will struggle most come a lack of a labour shortage.
This isn't meant as judgemental, but people only employable due to the labour shortage and only accepted into their field due to the labour shortage are also the people who will struggle most come a lack of a labour shortage.
Those who have work experience usually skip degree requirements.
In some companies. Then there are others...
I know someone who has been acting as her boss's replacement since her boss left the company. But the company refuses to promote her into that job because she doesn't have a degree. 20 years of employment with the company, plus demonstrated ability by actively doing the boss's job, doesn't count as much as an old piece of paper.
To emphasize: This company has a degree requirement not just for hiring inexperienced candidates (of unknown quality), but also for promoting experienced employees (of known quality). Stupidest thing I've ever seen.
I know someone who has been acting as her boss's replacement since her boss left the company. But the company refuses to promote her into that job because she doesn't have a degree. 20 years of employment with the company, plus demonstrated ability by actively doing the boss's job, doesn't count as much as an old piece of paper.
To emphasize: This company has a degree requirement not just for hiring inexperienced candidates (of unknown quality), but also for promoting experienced employees (of known quality). Stupidest thing I've ever seen.
Natural selection applies to companies too.
I found that the first two years of college were basically a repeat of my final year of high school, done to get everyone coming from different high schools around the nation to the same level. There was a semester class on how to use the library, in geography I colored a map of the United States and was tested on state capitals, business class covered supply and demand for those not exposed to the concept previously, the history of the world ended in 1945 because everything after was too controversial to discuss in a state funded school - same as in grade school and high school. Then I ran out of money, so I left, and I never looked back.
Overall college was a waste - more useful for atheists to get married then anything else. In the age of tender and online dating maybe it’s not even good for that.
My advice to people is just leave, get an entry level IT job, start getting experience. You will be working next to people who have six figures of college debt, but unless you tell them they will likely never know. I’m happy to tell them which school I went to if it comes up in conversation, I just omit the part that I left without obtaining a degree.
In the beginning I got turned down for loans occasionally because I didn’t obtain a degree, but no bank has asked my educational background since the 90s.
Of course if you want a non-IT job like practicing law then this may not work because many state bars require a regular college degree in addition to everything else and there is no flexibility. Same with anything medical that doesn’t involve hair exclusively.
Overall college was a waste - more useful for atheists to get married then anything else. In the age of tender and online dating maybe it’s not even good for that.
My advice to people is just leave, get an entry level IT job, start getting experience. You will be working next to people who have six figures of college debt, but unless you tell them they will likely never know. I’m happy to tell them which school I went to if it comes up in conversation, I just omit the part that I left without obtaining a degree.
In the beginning I got turned down for loans occasionally because I didn’t obtain a degree, but no bank has asked my educational background since the 90s.
Of course if you want a non-IT job like practicing law then this may not work because many state bars require a regular college degree in addition to everything else and there is no flexibility. Same with anything medical that doesn’t involve hair exclusively.
The cycle is already known - good economy less enrollment for colleges. Bad economy more enrollment. Would better wait for 2023 data.
Between the absurd cost and administrative bloat of universities, to the severe decline in the quality of the education at most universities, maybe this will be a wake up call
Ohhh nooooo imagine. Maybe if it was a decent value proposition instead of a way to pay a bunch of non-contributing college admins who's job could be done by GPT-4 people would sign up more, I wonder if there's any way that this could possibly be remedied. /s
The stigma of not going to college is going away.
I hope so. You can learn from youtube same as a professors lecturing.
Most people cannot. Not only are retention and learning radically different, the vast majority of people do not have the self discipline to go through the same amount of content. If a class isn't something you're immediately interested in and no one's forcing you to go, most people end up abandoning or skipping it. Watching only the fun parts or only the parts that seem to you to be immediately relevant to your current goal is not an education.
I agree with a lot of what you say except when you say "only the parts that seem to you to be immediately relevant to your current goal is not an education"
I think this sort of learning can, for somebody who is motivated, exceed the knowledge gained at a university. College is meant to give you a holistic, comprehensive overview of your major. But you can get that from sheer experience and from continuing to learn from a variety of sources. Books are also great at providing holistic knowledge on topics.
I think this sort of learning can, for somebody who is motivated, exceed the knowledge gained at a university. College is meant to give you a holistic, comprehensive overview of your major. But you can get that from sheer experience and from continuing to learn from a variety of sources. Books are also great at providing holistic knowledge on topics.
> But you can get that from sheer experience and from continuing to learn from a variety of sources. Books are also...
Learning is inherently painful. You are encoding boring new information into your brain, and most of it will be useless. From personal experience, 95% of the things you need to learn in CS or mathematics are boring. It is extremely difficult for most people to find motivation to do this. Schools (with grades, etc.) provide a structure to incentivize this.
Learning is inherently painful. You are encoding boring new information into your brain, and most of it will be useless. From personal experience, 95% of the things you need to learn in CS or mathematics are boring. It is extremely difficult for most people to find motivation to do this. Schools (with grades, etc.) provide a structure to incentivize this.
It hurts me to read this. Because actually learning is inherently fun, or used to be.
Why do kids have fun playing? Because they learn this way.
Playing is learning.
Or it used to, until the philosophy settled in, that playing is meant for wasting time (and you surely can waste time playing as most modern games are made for time killing) and learning has to be intentionally hard.
The most effective way to learn new things for me, is still to play around with them. Whether it is compilers or a new graphical framework. And then systematically move on and read documentation about it.
People can do this alone, but you are right that for most, including myself - a structured class can be very helpful. But it does not have to be a pain. The most I learned was in classes where the tutor understood how to teach in a fun and easy way.
Why do kids have fun playing? Because they learn this way.
Playing is learning.
Or it used to, until the philosophy settled in, that playing is meant for wasting time (and you surely can waste time playing as most modern games are made for time killing) and learning has to be intentionally hard.
The most effective way to learn new things for me, is still to play around with them. Whether it is compilers or a new graphical framework. And then systematically move on and read documentation about it.
People can do this alone, but you are right that for most, including myself - a structured class can be very helpful. But it does not have to be a pain. The most I learned was in classes where the tutor understood how to teach in a fun and easy way.
> The most effective way to learn new things for me, is still to play around with them. Whether it is compilers or a new graphical framework.
Compilers and UI APIs are easy to learn. I did it too. Education is the problem of teaching people much harder things.
> It hurts me to read this
Hey man, look, I was a great student and graduated from a good college with a 4.0 GPA with a math and CS degree, and now I've made a lot of money in industry. I am a huge proponent of the U.S. educational system and of the freedom of the individual to become educated.
But there are hard things you have to do in life; unless your name is Erdős, who, btw, was on speed the whole time.
It was relatively easy for me, but learning something real is something that is hard for all humans. The subjective experience of encoding millennia of information into your fleshy brain. Just like working out. The best way to work out is with a coach or buddy. There's a reason humans evolved to be social. Same is true with educational structures.
Play-based learning is a fad designed to satisfy liberal white women. Real, practical results come from overcoming challenge.
Compilers and UI APIs are easy to learn. I did it too. Education is the problem of teaching people much harder things.
> It hurts me to read this
Hey man, look, I was a great student and graduated from a good college with a 4.0 GPA with a math and CS degree, and now I've made a lot of money in industry. I am a huge proponent of the U.S. educational system and of the freedom of the individual to become educated.
But there are hard things you have to do in life; unless your name is Erdős, who, btw, was on speed the whole time.
It was relatively easy for me, but learning something real is something that is hard for all humans. The subjective experience of encoding millennia of information into your fleshy brain. Just like working out. The best way to work out is with a coach or buddy. There's a reason humans evolved to be social. Same is true with educational structures.
Play-based learning is a fad designed to satisfy liberal white women. Real, practical results come from overcoming challenge.
> Play-based learning is a fad designed to satisfy liberal white women.
After more research about the history of alternative education, I don't think this was accurate. I feel bad for resorting to stereotype.
"Liberal" is absolutely correct here, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_education
"White" is iffy. In my experience in the U.S., thinking about alternative education is a luxury that only some can afford to do. Therefore, it is an issue of affluence.
"Women" was out of line. This is not an issue of gender, not role, and I think it was harmful to reinforce certain traditional roles here.
I lied about my GPA btw, it was around 3.8. Math is hard. And I only went to a mid-tier state school. It was only "good" in that I enjoyed it and learned a lot. It was difficult for me to find a job even in the bull market of 2009-2020. But even though my personal outcome wasn't completely ideal, I still believe in the value of structured education with its grades, sorting, ranking, etc. because, at its best, it drives you to separate the learning from the intrinsic reward (which is necessary to learn the boring things you need to), and to simply be accountable for yourself. I don't think another human (besides Thoreau), or play, can provide that;
these lessons must come from the heartless industrial machine.
After more research about the history of alternative education, I don't think this was accurate. I feel bad for resorting to stereotype.
"Liberal" is absolutely correct here, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_education
"White" is iffy. In my experience in the U.S., thinking about alternative education is a luxury that only some can afford to do. Therefore, it is an issue of affluence.
"Women" was out of line. This is not an issue of gender, not role, and I think it was harmful to reinforce certain traditional roles here.
I lied about my GPA btw, it was around 3.8. Math is hard. And I only went to a mid-tier state school. It was only "good" in that I enjoyed it and learned a lot. It was difficult for me to find a job even in the bull market of 2009-2020. But even though my personal outcome wasn't completely ideal, I still believe in the value of structured education with its grades, sorting, ranking, etc. because, at its best, it drives you to separate the learning from the intrinsic reward (which is necessary to learn the boring things you need to), and to simply be accountable for yourself. I don't think another human (besides Thoreau), or play, can provide that;
these lessons must come from the heartless industrial machine.
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Most people can’t even do what you are proposing. They just load up before a test and dump it afterwards because they haven’t created any sustainable system for remembering it past their exam.
>Watching only the fun parts or only the parts that seem to you to be immediately relevant to your current goal is not an education.
The vast majority of tech nerds turned IT professionals self-taught themselves how computers work by being concerned only on what interested them at the time.
The vast majority of tech nerds turned IT professionals self-taught themselves how computers work by being concerned only on what interested them at the time.
Feedback is critical, though.
I imagine many folks who have watched a lot of videos on, say, economics or history or physics or whatever else hugely overestimate what they understand since they get no expert feedback to test their understanding.
Programmers tend to like self-teaching since it's very easy to get that feedback--write the code and see if it works! But not every subject is that way.
I imagine many folks who have watched a lot of videos on, say, economics or history or physics or whatever else hugely overestimate what they understand since they get no expert feedback to test their understanding.
Programmers tend to like self-teaching since it's very easy to get that feedback--write the code and see if it works! But not every subject is that way.
Returning to college, YouTube videos are far higher quality and ability than most lecturers. It's nearly impossible for for a "speech" to beat someone with unlimited retakes/recuts/similar anyways.
The places where professors should beat a YouTuber is being able to use experience from past classes (which they kinda don't seem to, since there's always a video for common misconceptions). And cases where it's impossible to "watch" with classes that need a high level of participation.
Of course something like grades are a good driver to get students to cover every topic, instead of grazing the ones they like. (Again not something impossible to get gamified a different way).
The places where professors should beat a YouTuber is being able to use experience from past classes (which they kinda don't seem to, since there's always a video for common misconceptions). And cases where it's impossible to "watch" with classes that need a high level of participation.
Of course something like grades are a good driver to get students to cover every topic, instead of grazing the ones they like. (Again not something impossible to get gamified a different way).
The learning happens via the subsequent homework and exams. In order to learn, you must be tested.
Why should I care? The university system has been broken for years now - it's about time it crashed and burned.
Shame that. Last time I drove past a college in the US it was the day the hat sorts people into fraternities or however that works and there was a great big cardboard sign on the lawn with a poignant message scribbled in sharpie: "Thank you for your daughters"
Quite the facial expressions on parents dropping off their kids and good chunk of life savings at these ivory towers.
Quite the facial expressions on parents dropping off their kids and good chunk of life savings at these ivory towers.
92% of students don't interact with fraternities in the U.S., depending on the school [1]. At the school I went to, it was 70%. If you disassociate yourself with the stupid frat/sorority culture, it is absolutely possible to get a lot out of college, both personally and professionally.
[1] https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-lis...
[1] https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-lis...
Interesting how this only goes one way. Would it have the same effect if at a sorority there was a sign that read "Thank you for your sons"?
What percentage of men vs women get raped?
These what-ifs are so fucking odious because they’re completely divorced from what actually happens in the real world.
These what-ifs are so fucking odious because they’re completely divorced from what actually happens in the real world.
Should certain crimes be taken less seriously based on who it happens to more often?
The problem with the rape of men is it's never taken seriously or seen as a non-issue because women are raped more often, case in point: your comment
The problem with the rape of men is it's never taken seriously or seen as a non-issue because women are raped more often, case in point: your comment
Eh, “the couch pulls out but freshmen don’t have to” was definitely a thing hanging off the balconies of sororities at my Uni, and we’re not even much of a party school anymore (comparatively)
no crisis - this is the American people recognising that the ROI of higher education is no longer there; in fact, with generative artificial intelligence poised to wipe out the white collar knowledge work college graduates had previously aspired towards, not going to college is unequivocally the smartest thing kids can do
I remember from some video on youtube that colleges in US used to be cheaper because government gave a lot of money to subsidise education. It stopped when government figured out that it was essentially paying to create citizens with progressive ideas and critical thought. There may be a lot of things wrong with colleges but they are essential and should be saved.
>” It stopped when government figured out that it was essentially paying to create citizens with progressive ideas and critical thought.”
I have no idea what that video is basing this on. The government continues to substantially subsidize college education through guaranteed loans, Pell grants, tax breaks, and research grants. And, colleges/universities had a reputation for “progressive ideas” since the 1960’s and it’s not like the powers that be have just recently caught on and tried to shut that down. Depending on who you ask, they’re more progressive and ideologically biased than ever.
I have no idea what that video is basing this on. The government continues to substantially subsidize college education through guaranteed loans, Pell grants, tax breaks, and research grants. And, colleges/universities had a reputation for “progressive ideas” since the 1960’s and it’s not like the powers that be have just recently caught on and tried to shut that down. Depending on who you ask, they’re more progressive and ideologically biased than ever.
I'm not able to find the video, but here's what was discussed in it
https://theintercept.com/2022/08/25/student-loans-debt-reaga...
“We are in danger of producing an educated proletariat. That’s dynamite! We have to be selective on who we allow to go through higher education.” -- 1970, Roger Freeman, a Hoover Institution economist and a key educational adviser to Nixon
https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ684842.pdf
Once elected, Mr. Reagan set the educational tone for his administration by
• calling for an end to free tuition for state college and university students
• annually demanding 20 percent across-the-board cuts in higher education funding
• repeatedly slashing construction funds for state campuses
• engineering the firing of Clark Kerr, the highly respected president of the University of California
• declaring that the state “should not subsidize intellectual curiosity"
Reagan also tried to end department of education
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1985-01-29-mn-13948-...
https://theintercept.com/2022/08/25/student-loans-debt-reaga...
“We are in danger of producing an educated proletariat. That’s dynamite! We have to be selective on who we allow to go through higher education.” -- 1970, Roger Freeman, a Hoover Institution economist and a key educational adviser to Nixon
https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ684842.pdf
Once elected, Mr. Reagan set the educational tone for his administration by
• calling for an end to free tuition for state college and university students
• annually demanding 20 percent across-the-board cuts in higher education funding
• repeatedly slashing construction funds for state campuses
• engineering the firing of Clark Kerr, the highly respected president of the University of California
• declaring that the state “should not subsidize intellectual curiosity"
Reagan also tried to end department of education
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1985-01-29-mn-13948-...
State governments have massively dropped their support for colleges. And the federal govt’s support has barely kept up with rising inflation, never mind the inflated rise in college costs.
In fact, one of the only major changes the federal govt has made in the last couple of decades is to make college loans something you cannot get rid of in a bankruptcy.
In fact, one of the only major changes the federal govt has made in the last couple of decades is to make college loans something you cannot get rid of in a bankruptcy.
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So, the education to become a democrat has now become so expensive,that people are forced to remain republican :-(
Please don't use HN for partisan flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I'm always baffled how much tuition was at my public university, yet teacher and TA salaries are so low. It's like everything except academics attached itself to drain money from students