British government mocked for advertising head of cyber role with £57K salary(therecord.media)
therecord.media
British government mocked for advertising head of cyber role with £57K salary
https://therecord.media/head-of-cyber-role-salary-uk-hm-treasury
118 comments
Reason I left the UK for [redacted] was lack of wage growth. My wife is earning more than double what she was in the UK (tech sector). Taxes are very similar to the UK whereas overall CoL is lower in [redacted] (for us anyway, it varies on location, expected lifestyle, etc) so we have been able to save a lot more than we were able to in the UK.
Also quality of life in [redacted] is so so much better than it was in the UK. Comparing the last 5 years here vs our 5 last years in the UK and it is shocking how different and better our life is.
Sure [redacted] has its problems (just look at the protests right now) but I wouldn't leave unless it was for a really big chunk of change. [redacted] is freakin' awesome.
Oh also the healthcare is fucking incredible. I've had a few issues recently and every time I've needed to see my doctor it is same day and when referred to see a specialist it is always within a week. I had an MRI last week and a follow up yesterday to check some other things. Saw the consultant 15 minutes after the scan. Got the all clear. No waiting around thinking the worst. Absolutely amazing service and wanna know how much it cost me? €5 for parking last week and €3.70 for parking this week.
Also quality of life in [redacted] is so so much better than it was in the UK. Comparing the last 5 years here vs our 5 last years in the UK and it is shocking how different and better our life is.
Sure [redacted] has its problems (just look at the protests right now) but I wouldn't leave unless it was for a really big chunk of change. [redacted] is freakin' awesome.
Oh also the healthcare is fucking incredible. I've had a few issues recently and every time I've needed to see my doctor it is same day and when referred to see a specialist it is always within a week. I had an MRI last week and a follow up yesterday to check some other things. Saw the consultant 15 minutes after the scan. Got the all clear. No waiting around thinking the worst. Absolutely amazing service and wanna know how much it cost me? €5 for parking last week and €3.70 for parking this week.
>> Also quality of life in France is so so much better than it was in the UK. Comparing the last 5 years here vs our 5 last years in the UK and it is shocking how different and better our life is.
Do you mind expanding on this? Particularly the less obvious things that you didn’t notice until you’d spent some time living there.
Do you mind expanding on this? Particularly the less obvious things that you didn’t notice until you’d spent some time living there.
Not op but among others and not taking about paris, but I'd suggest
* Food options/freshness * Culture affordable * Pace of life generally calmer (but I know only UK cities not countryside life so YMMV) * Working hours lower * More human public services * Quality of housing - UK housing stock is abysmal especially if you are renting * Maternity/general employee protections
There are also downsides, like probably lower tech take-up and flexibility with some big corps being quite hierarchical and the school system somewhat old fashioned (on the other hand not as segregated and struggling as UK system)
* Food options/freshness * Culture affordable * Pace of life generally calmer (but I know only UK cities not countryside life so YMMV) * Working hours lower * More human public services * Quality of housing - UK housing stock is abysmal especially if you are renting * Maternity/general employee protections
There are also downsides, like probably lower tech take-up and flexibility with some big corps being quite hierarchical and the school system somewhat old fashioned (on the other hand not as segregated and struggling as UK system)
Pretty spot on!
Sure but I don't know how good a job I will do putting it into words :)
We lived in London ([redacted]) and just outside ([redacted]) before we moved. We moved to the outskirts of [redacted] (we're a 10 minute drive from the nearest metro station). Takes 20 minutes to drive into the centre (Bellecour). About 10 minutes to drive to Tete D'or park just to give you some idea of distances.
Life in [redacted] is just so much more relaxed and happy. It is the little things like when I take my son to school here all the parents stop and chat and laugh and talk about what they did that weekend. In the UK it always felt like everyone was in a rush and/or bad mood. Rushing off to some other activity or moaning how they're running late because they were caught up at work.
Everyone here has a very hard cut point with work. I don't think I've actually heard someone complain about being late because of work. Traffic yes but never work. Everyone takes a solid 2 hour lunch break where we sit out in the sun (the weather is a plus obviously). Chat. Read. Play Pétanque.
The same is true after work. For example just yesterday the weather is warm so after I got back from having my MRI I bumped into my neighbour on his way home from work. He asked how I was doing so I gave him the update all is good and he was like that's great come play with us! And we spent the next hour chatting about MRIs with the kids, explaining how they work and I showed them the MRI of my brain I had on my laptop from last week haha :D
I know that is nothing unique to being in [redacted] and it could just as well happen in the UK but my point here is it never happened in the UK. Whereas that is just my normal evening. Neighbours chat and socialise and we pop round each others for goûter (a small snack) randomly.
I am sure I could have the same anywhere including the UK but given I lived in a similar kind of place (outskirts of a big city) it is just interesting to me how different the people and lifestyle are.
When I visit family back in the UK it feels odd to me. A lot of negativity. A lot of misery. I went last August and chatting with my parents neighbours (whom I have been friends with for a decade) were just so so negative. Moaning constantly, grumpy. I even said to my mother at the time "wtf is up with Zoe?" and she said "oh she's just had enough of all the crap". To be fair this was when Liz Truss just tanked the economy in record time and was then replaced with Sunak.
I realise [redacted] is not all roses and butterflies obviously. They have real problems too and perhaps I just lucked out with my place in [redacted] but my wife is happy and my son is happy (and bilingual which is a huge win and something I am super happy about). We live in a place 2.5x as our place in [redacted] for €300 month less. Have excellent healthcare, great weather, wonderful food, a beautiful park to relax in just 10 minutes away (Tete D'or).
Life is pretty damn good and that is before all the financial benefits we had moving here which are another story.
Edit: forgive any glaring typos. I wrote this very quickly as I am heading out of the door, usually I would proof read something this long as I won't be able to edit it later! If something seems very wrong I will try to correct it with a later reply :)
We lived in London ([redacted]) and just outside ([redacted]) before we moved. We moved to the outskirts of [redacted] (we're a 10 minute drive from the nearest metro station). Takes 20 minutes to drive into the centre (Bellecour). About 10 minutes to drive to Tete D'or park just to give you some idea of distances.
Life in [redacted] is just so much more relaxed and happy. It is the little things like when I take my son to school here all the parents stop and chat and laugh and talk about what they did that weekend. In the UK it always felt like everyone was in a rush and/or bad mood. Rushing off to some other activity or moaning how they're running late because they were caught up at work.
Everyone here has a very hard cut point with work. I don't think I've actually heard someone complain about being late because of work. Traffic yes but never work. Everyone takes a solid 2 hour lunch break where we sit out in the sun (the weather is a plus obviously). Chat. Read. Play Pétanque.
The same is true after work. For example just yesterday the weather is warm so after I got back from having my MRI I bumped into my neighbour on his way home from work. He asked how I was doing so I gave him the update all is good and he was like that's great come play with us! And we spent the next hour chatting about MRIs with the kids, explaining how they work and I showed them the MRI of my brain I had on my laptop from last week haha :D
I know that is nothing unique to being in [redacted] and it could just as well happen in the UK but my point here is it never happened in the UK. Whereas that is just my normal evening. Neighbours chat and socialise and we pop round each others for goûter (a small snack) randomly.
I am sure I could have the same anywhere including the UK but given I lived in a similar kind of place (outskirts of a big city) it is just interesting to me how different the people and lifestyle are.
When I visit family back in the UK it feels odd to me. A lot of negativity. A lot of misery. I went last August and chatting with my parents neighbours (whom I have been friends with for a decade) were just so so negative. Moaning constantly, grumpy. I even said to my mother at the time "wtf is up with Zoe?" and she said "oh she's just had enough of all the crap". To be fair this was when Liz Truss just tanked the economy in record time and was then replaced with Sunak.
I realise [redacted] is not all roses and butterflies obviously. They have real problems too and perhaps I just lucked out with my place in [redacted] but my wife is happy and my son is happy (and bilingual which is a huge win and something I am super happy about). We live in a place 2.5x as our place in [redacted] for €300 month less. Have excellent healthcare, great weather, wonderful food, a beautiful park to relax in just 10 minutes away (Tete D'or).
Life is pretty damn good and that is before all the financial benefits we had moving here which are another story.
Edit: forgive any glaring typos. I wrote this very quickly as I am heading out of the door, usually I would proof read something this long as I won't be able to edit it later! If something seems very wrong I will try to correct it with a later reply :)
Fascinating answer. Thank you for going into so much detail. Your description of the general mood in the UK and the general attitude of people (including myself) was uncomfortably accurate.
Obviously I don't want to shit on my home country or countrymen but honestly I was pretty shocked. I hadn't visited much since we moved here in 2018 because of covid so August 2022 was our first "proper" visit since 2018.
Sure I met lots of happy people too but what stood out to me was how many people were unhappy. Even the happy people I hung around with soon (within an hour or so) turned into grumps and then the flood gates opened once one person got bitching about "the state of the UK" they all started.
I lived in the UK since birth so 30+ years by the time I left. I don't ever remember people being so negative. Utility bills, shitty schools, awful local services, everything costing more and being shittier quality. It almost felt like everyone was in a sort of mild state of countrywide depression. Not quite sure how to put it but perhaps some kind of negative feedback loop of misery is just compounding in the general populations psyche? That might sound a bit over the top but I don't really know how else to describe it as an "inside outsider" that I am.
The move to [redacted] has obviously been great for us. We moved in 2018 as I've mentioned, long story show once the vote to leave the EU won we decided to leave while we could. It took us two years of planning to make it happen and in a huge strike of luck my wife was made redundant (due to Brexit!) just a few weeks before she was going to hand in her notice having been contacted about a job here in [redacted]. So we left with a nice big cash lump sum, plus a fantastic signing bonus for my wife and a very generous relocation lump sum. In just a few weeks we went from very little savings to over £200k cash that we used to pay of all debts (including mortgage) and left the UK with zero debt and a nice chunk of cash most of which is now invested with some accessible for emergencies.
Sadly a few "friends" from the UK who were quite pro Brexit saw us as "fools" for leaving and when we met up they didn't try to hide the fact they thought we were "traitors" (literally what they called us at one point) as we "profited from Brexit but don't agree with it and fucked off". They basically feel it is people like me and my family that are the 'reason' Brexit is a failure?! Their arguments make little to no sense obviously but it was quite sad to hear someone I used to enjoy hanging out with call me an asshole for "making loads of money while the country went to shit". Obviously nothing to do with Covid, Boris, a decade of Tory rule, all the vote Leave lies, etc. Trying to have a discussion with them was like trying to explain multithreading programming to a piece of wood but oh well I tried. I suspect his negative attitude towards me is more to due with his own issues and he found an easy target with me having moved to a country he hates. Certainly felt like he had a lot of build up anger and he let it all out when I popped round to say hi!
So yeah lots of great things but also some emotionally difficult things come with moving country although I feel mine are more specific to the whole Brexit situation that wouldn't be an issue usually.
Sure I met lots of happy people too but what stood out to me was how many people were unhappy. Even the happy people I hung around with soon (within an hour or so) turned into grumps and then the flood gates opened once one person got bitching about "the state of the UK" they all started.
I lived in the UK since birth so 30+ years by the time I left. I don't ever remember people being so negative. Utility bills, shitty schools, awful local services, everything costing more and being shittier quality. It almost felt like everyone was in a sort of mild state of countrywide depression. Not quite sure how to put it but perhaps some kind of negative feedback loop of misery is just compounding in the general populations psyche? That might sound a bit over the top but I don't really know how else to describe it as an "inside outsider" that I am.
The move to [redacted] has obviously been great for us. We moved in 2018 as I've mentioned, long story show once the vote to leave the EU won we decided to leave while we could. It took us two years of planning to make it happen and in a huge strike of luck my wife was made redundant (due to Brexit!) just a few weeks before she was going to hand in her notice having been contacted about a job here in [redacted]. So we left with a nice big cash lump sum, plus a fantastic signing bonus for my wife and a very generous relocation lump sum. In just a few weeks we went from very little savings to over £200k cash that we used to pay of all debts (including mortgage) and left the UK with zero debt and a nice chunk of cash most of which is now invested with some accessible for emergencies.
Sadly a few "friends" from the UK who were quite pro Brexit saw us as "fools" for leaving and when we met up they didn't try to hide the fact they thought we were "traitors" (literally what they called us at one point) as we "profited from Brexit but don't agree with it and fucked off". They basically feel it is people like me and my family that are the 'reason' Brexit is a failure?! Their arguments make little to no sense obviously but it was quite sad to hear someone I used to enjoy hanging out with call me an asshole for "making loads of money while the country went to shit". Obviously nothing to do with Covid, Boris, a decade of Tory rule, all the vote Leave lies, etc. Trying to have a discussion with them was like trying to explain multithreading programming to a piece of wood but oh well I tried. I suspect his negative attitude towards me is more to due with his own issues and he found an easy target with me having moved to a country he hates. Certainly felt like he had a lot of build up anger and he let it all out when I popped round to say hi!
So yeah lots of great things but also some emotionally difficult things come with moving country although I feel mine are more specific to the whole Brexit situation that wouldn't be an issue usually.
I moved from the UK to New Zealand and I've subsequently lived in the US and Denmark and now NZ again. I feel like your story encapsulates my feelings about the UK, or at least England. Compared to a lot of other places there's a misery to England. Of course I had some good times growing up there, but I don't miss it. When I visit it's like you smile at someone on the street and say good morning and they scowl at you.
In the US every time I walked into town I'd get a nice chat with a stranger, people were very open to talking. British people regard this with suspicion and it's really common to hear them say it's all fake after a visit. I carry that insular 'stoic' cynicism from growing up there and I dislike it within myself. I'm so glad I moved. Also the money.
In the US every time I walked into town I'd get a nice chat with a stranger, people were very open to talking. British people regard this with suspicion and it's really common to hear them say it's all fake after a visit. I carry that insular 'stoic' cynicism from growing up there and I dislike it within myself. I'm so glad I moved. Also the money.
As a French person:
What you said is true, but the job market is fucked over here as well, its just the tech sectors going nuts. People with degrees in anything other than IT end up as servers, while people with those degrees get called weekly by recruiters. Same as anywhere else really, I got a 25% raise by hopping jobs for a year.
What you said is true, but the job market is fucked over here as well, its just the tech sectors going nuts. People with degrees in anything other than IT end up as servers, while people with those degrees get called weekly by recruiters. Same as anywhere else really, I got a 25% raise by hopping jobs for a year.
Agreed. I lived in London and moved back to Dublin. Even with the high costs in Ireland and taxes, tech salaries are now moving way ahead of London (which is not a cheap city).
> and despite the luxuries (healthcare, gun control)
Slightly off topic but it's almost comical that `gun control` is considered a luxury.
Slightly off topic but it's almost comical that `gun control` is considered a luxury.
Yep, everything you said is spot on.
I'm on N times the UK national median wage in London and still have anxiety about being able to afford kids, pay my mortgage, and retire at a half decent age. I see American firms offering 50-100% more pay for the same or less demanding roles.
I'm on N times the UK national median wage in London and still have anxiety about being able to afford kids, pay my mortgage, and retire at a half decent age. I see American firms offering 50-100% more pay for the same or less demanding roles.
Meanwhile almost everyone I know has the same opportunities available and is not eyeing the exit, in fact actively choosing to be paid less to stay here in the UK rather than deal with the standard of living in places like the US. My company operates in the UK and the US and I could transfer. Having visited and spent weeks at a time there, I actively choose not to despite the fact I would likely be eligible for it, and see a significant salary bump. I would live in a bigger house, drive a nicer car, but that's not an increase in a standard of living, that's an increase in a perception of my standards.
> almost everyone I know is eyeing the exit.
"almost everyone I know is eyeing the exit".. sorry, but are everyone looking to move to US/Australia? Because to Europe, the salaries are much lower than on UK, and frankly, US (specially because of healthcare, gun control, and street violence) is becoming less and less attractive, despite the amount of salary. Actually US is looking like South America: You try to earn as much as you can, not because you want, but to be able to live a safer life.
"almost everyone I know is eyeing the exit".. sorry, but are everyone looking to move to US/Australia? Because to Europe, the salaries are much lower than on UK, and frankly, US (specially because of healthcare, gun control, and street violence) is becoming less and less attractive, despite the amount of salary. Actually US is looking like South America: You try to earn as much as you can, not because you want, but to be able to live a safer life.
> Because to Europe, the salaries are much lower than on UK,
After emigrating to central Europe I have to disagree. The salary in the UK is relative to the location so London for example is stupidly expensive to live in, so instead you commute an hour or so and still pay fairly high rent.
High salaries are in the major cities, but they carry extremely high cost of living, without necessarily high standard.
The salaries are actually closer than you might think once you look around of course, and the cost of living is almost always significantly less. So from my own experience overall I'm significantly in the green.
> Actually US is looking like South America: You try to earn as much as you can, not because you want, but to be able to live a safer life.
South America isn't all as bad as you hear on the news. You seem to have these sweeping ideas. Things usually aren't that black and white though.
After emigrating to central Europe I have to disagree. The salary in the UK is relative to the location so London for example is stupidly expensive to live in, so instead you commute an hour or so and still pay fairly high rent.
High salaries are in the major cities, but they carry extremely high cost of living, without necessarily high standard.
The salaries are actually closer than you might think once you look around of course, and the cost of living is almost always significantly less. So from my own experience overall I'm significantly in the green.
> Actually US is looking like South America: You try to earn as much as you can, not because you want, but to be able to live a safer life.
South America isn't all as bad as you hear on the news. You seem to have these sweeping ideas. Things usually aren't that black and white though.
> South America isn't all as bad as you hear on the news.
It might not be but as someone who's natively from Brazil I can say: it's pretty fucking rough, even more when I compare to my life in Europe/Sweden.
Whenever I visit I do need to turn on my alertness to surroundings up to 11, I do need to close the car windows when I stop on a red light in a city, I do need to care about two guys riding a motorcycle and coming to the general vicinity of myself or the vehicle I'm in.
Lived there for some 25 years of my life, got mugged with a gun 5 times, got mugged with a knife twice.
It doesn't happen everyday but violent is so common that you are on a constant state of anxiety and alertness, it's pretty stressful to live your day-to-day like that.
I also lived in the USA for a while and while you don't get the same anxiety as in South America I still felt much more stressed in the USA than I've ever been anywhere in Europe.
It might not be but as someone who's natively from Brazil I can say: it's pretty fucking rough, even more when I compare to my life in Europe/Sweden.
Whenever I visit I do need to turn on my alertness to surroundings up to 11, I do need to close the car windows when I stop on a red light in a city, I do need to care about two guys riding a motorcycle and coming to the general vicinity of myself or the vehicle I'm in.
Lived there for some 25 years of my life, got mugged with a gun 5 times, got mugged with a knife twice.
It doesn't happen everyday but violent is so common that you are on a constant state of anxiety and alertness, it's pretty stressful to live your day-to-day like that.
I also lived in the USA for a while and while you don't get the same anxiety as in South America I still felt much more stressed in the USA than I've ever been anywhere in Europe.
Is this everywhere in Brazil or just certain cities? From the outside it looks like for example, Sao Paolo, looks ways safer than Rio de Janeiro but I've never visited so I don't know.
Pretty much any large-ish city (500k+) will suffer from some variation of it, a little better here, a little worse there.
I'm originally from São Paulo's metro area, lived in the city most of my adult life in Brazil as well, and I wouldn't say it's "way safer". It does feel safer in a way, in some neighbourhoods but in the end it's just a variation of the ever-present dangers of Brazil. Rio de Janeiro is much more intertwined with hills and favelas in between nicer areas of the city, requires you to know how to behave/where to go.
I grew up in a rougher area (not a favela though), I'm not from a wealthy background and in a sense that helped with some street-smartness to live there and know what to avoid.
I'm originally from São Paulo's metro area, lived in the city most of my adult life in Brazil as well, and I wouldn't say it's "way safer". It does feel safer in a way, in some neighbourhoods but in the end it's just a variation of the ever-present dangers of Brazil. Rio de Janeiro is much more intertwined with hills and favelas in between nicer areas of the city, requires you to know how to behave/where to go.
I grew up in a rougher area (not a favela though), I'm not from a wealthy background and in a sense that helped with some street-smartness to live there and know what to avoid.
This is good to know, I was planning on visit South America at some point in the next ten years, although I was mainly planning on visiting some of the Spanish speaking countries because I've been learning Spanish. Do you think that Brazil is generally improving over time in terms of safety or are things mostly the same as they were ten or twenty years ago? From the outside, whenever I see a documentary on Brazil it looks like it is improving quite rapidly but the gang violence looks like it is difficult to get under control?
> South America isn't all as bad as you hear on the news. You seem to have these sweeping ideas. Things usually aren't that black and white though.
I'm German, but i was born there. Spent 20 years there and visit constantly (and love) different countries there like Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina and Chile. I know my Turf pretty well.
I'm German, but i was born there. Spent 20 years there and visit constantly (and love) different countries there like Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina and Chile. I know my Turf pretty well.
Sounds like you haven't been around the US much. There are cheap places and safe places to live. Stay away from the bigger liberal cities if street violence is a concern.
If the US looks like South America you've fallen into a media trap. You are being sold something untrue but packaged perfectly so everyone gets paid. Where in America would you get pick pocked like south america? Disney World? The mean streets of Akron Ohio? Nonsense..
If the US looks like South America you've fallen into a media trap. You are being sold something untrue but packaged perfectly so everyone gets paid. Where in America would you get pick pocked like south america? Disney World? The mean streets of Akron Ohio? Nonsense..
In South America you don't get pickpocket'ed, you get mugged. With a gun, or knife.
Still, the USA does feel eerily similar to my native country (Brazil), I've lived in Brazil, the USA and Sweden, it's pretty clear how Brazil got modeled after the American way of life. You do have to work, a lot, otherwise you'll be replaced (just like in the USA); your status do matter, bigger house, bigger car, etc. (just like in the USA); you do need to earn a decent/higher wage if you want to live a comfortable and safe life (just like in the USA).
So yes, life in the USA is much closer to South America than to Europe.
Still, the USA does feel eerily similar to my native country (Brazil), I've lived in Brazil, the USA and Sweden, it's pretty clear how Brazil got modeled after the American way of life. You do have to work, a lot, otherwise you'll be replaced (just like in the USA); your status do matter, bigger house, bigger car, etc. (just like in the USA); you do need to earn a decent/higher wage if you want to live a comfortable and safe life (just like in the USA).
So yes, life in the USA is much closer to South America than to Europe.
The US is not one place. From the snowy Alaska fishing towns to Hawaiian huts to Maine forest lodges to Florida condos to Desert Ranches to NYC apartments you will find Europe if you are looking.
In California/NY they will tax you like a European but in Florida they won't tax your income at all
In California/NY they will tax you like a European but in Florida they won't tax your income at all
You are generalizing, and in some cases, comparing apples with oranges. Is NY safer than Florianopolis or is LA nicer than Piriápolis, Uruguay? I doubt. But that's not the point, but the point of wall up, gear up, move up from the city, private schools for safety, and etc.
Is NYC safer than Florianópolis? Yup, considering there were 400-ish murders in NYC in 2022 with some 8 million people in the city proper, there were 44 in Florianópolis in 2021 with a population of 400k, double the rate of NYC per capita.
Looks like you are missing the point. Akron Ohio, well guess what, there as well pretty calm cities in South America too. But that's not the point. The point is, people trying to get rich, to stay alive (buy private security, private school, private health care, better walls, etc)
The kidnapping of tourists is a South American industry, the walls try to keep that out. No one buys private security.
Downtown in any major US city is a pretty scary place.
I’m in downtown Boston right now, just after being in downtown London. London is WAY scarier, and I was in the Mayfair neighborhood!
Violence is not a concern for the overwhelming majority of Americans in their daily lives.
EDIT: not that ANYONE should have to worry about violence in their daily lives; one just saying the US isn’t what you see in the movies or on 24x7 news.
Violence is not a concern for the overwhelming majority of Americans in their daily lives.
EDIT: not that ANYONE should have to worry about violence in their daily lives; one just saying the US isn’t what you see in the movies or on 24x7 news.
Boston: 700.000 people
London: 9.000.000 people
That is, London is the size of New York. Just the fact that you are comparing Boston with London kind of proves my point.
London: 9.000.000 people
That is, London is the size of New York. Just the fact that you are comparing Boston with London kind of proves my point.
So you're on between £100,000 and £125,140. There's a very small (and stupid) band in our income tax system where people are on 60% marginal.
That's pretty high though. In Australia, the top tax bracket is $180k+ (£100k or so) at 45%, which I always thought was absurdly high. Earning 40c on the dollar (or 40p on the pound, I suppose) must surely set a ceiling.
It's a bit of a mess in our tax system that causes this.
The highest official tax bracket is 45%[0], which comes into effect once you earn over £150,000.
The "higher" rate bracket is from ~£50,000 to £150,000, HOWEVER:
Once you reach £100,000, your tax-free personal allowance is reduced by £1 for every £2 you earn, so that bottom section of your earnings enter into the 20% bracket when they were 0% previously, so effectively you're marginally taxed 60% (40% + 20%) on your earnings between £100,000 and £125,140.
Between £125,140 and £150,000 you're back at 40%! Anything over £150,000 is taxed at 45%.
Also, if you're (un)fortunate enough to be a parent with young children and you benefit from tax-free child care[1] (to which pretty much everyone is entitled), the second you earn a penny over £100,000 (after pension deductions, but before tax etc) you lose the ~£2000 per child annual benefit.
Effectively this means that if any one parent in a household gets a pay rise from £100,000 to £100,000.01 (ignoring the pensions contributions for a moment), they are actually ~£2000 per child worse off. These people are therefore better off earning £100,000 than £100,000 + (£2000*N) where N is the number of children at tax-free childcare age, until their children age out of the benefit.
In case that's not enough; the moment you earned that extra 1p over £100,000, you're now obligated to start filing tax returns, even if you're a PAYE employee never having done so before [2].
[0] https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates [1] https://www.gov.uk/tax-free-childcare [2] https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates/income-over-100000
The highest official tax bracket is 45%[0], which comes into effect once you earn over £150,000.
The "higher" rate bracket is from ~£50,000 to £150,000, HOWEVER:
Once you reach £100,000, your tax-free personal allowance is reduced by £1 for every £2 you earn, so that bottom section of your earnings enter into the 20% bracket when they were 0% previously, so effectively you're marginally taxed 60% (40% + 20%) on your earnings between £100,000 and £125,140.
Between £125,140 and £150,000 you're back at 40%! Anything over £150,000 is taxed at 45%.
Also, if you're (un)fortunate enough to be a parent with young children and you benefit from tax-free child care[1] (to which pretty much everyone is entitled), the second you earn a penny over £100,000 (after pension deductions, but before tax etc) you lose the ~£2000 per child annual benefit.
Effectively this means that if any one parent in a household gets a pay rise from £100,000 to £100,000.01 (ignoring the pensions contributions for a moment), they are actually ~£2000 per child worse off. These people are therefore better off earning £100,000 than £100,000 + (£2000*N) where N is the number of children at tax-free childcare age, until their children age out of the benefit.
In case that's not enough; the moment you earned that extra 1p over £100,000, you're now obligated to start filing tax returns, even if you're a PAYE employee never having done so before [2].
[0] https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates [1] https://www.gov.uk/tax-free-childcare [2] https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates/income-over-100000
Thank you for this comment.
I moved into the 100k bracket 3 years ago, and have just hit 125k this Jan. I am the sole earner in our house, wife can't work and have a 12 year old boy.
And I've been trying (and failing) to work out why it seems like more than 40% of my earnings are taken as tax.
And why I need to do tax returns as I've always been PAYE with no other income sources.
I moved into the 100k bracket 3 years ago, and have just hit 125k this Jan. I am the sole earner in our house, wife can't work and have a 12 year old boy.
And I've been trying (and failing) to work out why it seems like more than 40% of my earnings are taken as tax.
And why I need to do tax returns as I've always been PAYE with no other income sources.
The bad news for you, is that in 4 days[0], the 45% threshold will lower to the ~£125k mark, so your next pay rise will be particularly hit hard.
[0] https://archive.vn/TJyWe
[0] https://archive.vn/TJyWe
Ha.
I joined the workforce the year after final salary pensions were shutdown. My slightly older peers are all on track for early retirement. I will never be able to retire.
I considered contracting just as IR35 was introduced. My slightly older peers who - literally - got rich and paid no taxes enjoy much better lifestyle than me.
So this makes sense, that as I claw my way to higher income, it's taken away by the system.
All the while having record house prices, plummeted pension performance and now cost of living/inflation.
What a horrible game.
I joined the workforce the year after final salary pensions were shutdown. My slightly older peers are all on track for early retirement. I will never be able to retire.
I considered contracting just as IR35 was introduced. My slightly older peers who - literally - got rich and paid no taxes enjoy much better lifestyle than me.
So this makes sense, that as I claw my way to higher income, it's taken away by the system.
All the while having record house prices, plummeted pension performance and now cost of living/inflation.
What a horrible game.
almost everyone I know is eyeing the exit
Anecdotal only. I don't know many eyeing the exit. Not everybody is so money focused.
Anecdotal only. I don't know many eyeing the exit. Not everybody is so money focused.
I am. My children are the only things keeping me here. It's not about the money it's about quality of life. Healthcare is rapidly becoming non-existent, schools operate off the back of teachers, roads are falling apart, the level of corruption is embarrassing, housing market is ridiculous, childcare is expensive and/or non-existent etc. In general any service provided by the state is deteriorating.
It's not about the money it's about quality of life
My response was to a post about money.
Wrt quality of life, I can definitely see that as an argument for leaving the UK (though obviously less useful than staying to try and change it), but you only have to look at international quality of life indexes to see that social happiness is pretty much inversely related to materialist excess within the developed nations.
My response was to a post about money.
Wrt quality of life, I can definitely see that as an argument for leaving the UK (though obviously less useful than staying to try and change it), but you only have to look at international quality of life indexes to see that social happiness is pretty much inversely related to materialist excess within the developed nations.
You don't have to be money focused. Maybe you just want an appointment with your dentist without waiting for over 2 months for it.
I got a letter saying I was due an appointment, emailed them to book me in at the start of this month, my appointment is in the middle of July over four months later. And I am one of the luckier ones in that I actually have a dentist. A lot of people in the country can't even access one. This country is an absolute joke and I am also getting out.
There's plenty wrong with the UK but the pursuit of materialism and short-term I'm-alright-Jack priorities is responsible for a lot of it.
I understand what you were saying in your original comment having seen this now. Completely agree the level of selfish short term-ism is a joke.
Thanks, yes, and I agree the UK has been on a downward path for a considerable time; I don't blame anybody for trying to find somewhere they will be happier - and warmer :) - it's the materialistic worship at the centre of a lot of our problems (reflected in the values of empty salary-chasing) that bothers me.
If the services are around you are deteriorating, then by definition you need more money to access the type of services that used to exist at the level you are used to.
So I'm not sure empty salary-chasing is as empty as you make it seem. Sometimes salary chasing is just trying to keep up with inflation in order to make sure your family maintains a decent standard of living.
Unless I completely misunderstood your post, in which case disregard everything I said.
So I'm not sure empty salary-chasing is as empty as you make it seem. Sometimes salary chasing is just trying to keep up with inflation in order to make sure your family maintains a decent standard of living.
Unless I completely misunderstood your post, in which case disregard everything I said.
Maybe I'm spoilt, but I've been able to get a next-day dentist appointment basically forever. Usually private, because I get insurance through work though.
The UK is notorious for having a persistently large proportion of the population insisting they're about to emigrate any moment now. It's a long-standing and weird phenomenon.
My bet (being British) is that Brits have lots of culturally-close New World countries to pick from. The US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, all culturally close and English-speaking. Someone from Germany or France have far fewer, if any options, especially if you count out bordering countries.
That, and the weather.
But this is a recurring theme to the point where I think it's not so much that the opportunity is there (non-English speaking countries are also high on the list of places British people want to emigrate) but a cultural idea where there seems to be that mild level of discontent that in the UK is expressed by talking about (but rarely following through) on moving to Australia in particular as a kind of hyperbole. It's a bit of a favourite of mine to explore, as it's such an weird peculiarity of British culture.
As a result, UK media as well as political groups all know that if they want a reliable way of writing a "the UK is going to hell" article, all they need to do is do a survey on people wanting to leave.
Because if you can't get more than about half of the population to say they're at least pondering leaving the UK, you're doing something very wrong and/or people are unusually happy.
Some examples:
2023: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11768729/Half-want-...
2022: https://hrnews.co.uk/two-thirds-of-british-workers-dream-of-...
2022: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/people-...
I think this one was what first made me aware of this phenomenon:
2012: https://www.aol.co.uk/2012/04/15/almost-half-of-brits-want-t...
But this is a recurring theme to the point where I think it's not so much that the opportunity is there (non-English speaking countries are also high on the list of places British people want to emigrate) but a cultural idea where there seems to be that mild level of discontent that in the UK is expressed by talking about (but rarely following through) on moving to Australia in particular as a kind of hyperbole. It's a bit of a favourite of mine to explore, as it's such an weird peculiarity of British culture.
As a result, UK media as well as political groups all know that if they want a reliable way of writing a "the UK is going to hell" article, all they need to do is do a survey on people wanting to leave.
Because if you can't get more than about half of the population to say they're at least pondering leaving the UK, you're doing something very wrong and/or people are unusually happy.
Some examples:
2023: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11768729/Half-want-...
2022: https://hrnews.co.uk/two-thirds-of-british-workers-dream-of-...
2022: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/people-...
I think this one was what first made me aware of this phenomenon:
2012: https://www.aol.co.uk/2012/04/15/almost-half-of-brits-want-t...
I'd argue this is more pronounced in non-professional fields - looking at levels.fyi, London pays developers more than any Canadian or Australian city, despite the latter two having a higher CoL. London is only beat by the US and Switzerland.
I wouldn't be surprised if the mean was dragged upwards by FAANG headquarters and a few financial service firms with a median that is lagging behind.
My experience in talking to FAANG recruiters in the UK is that they're not paying all that well here relative to other (non-financial services firms) for developers. I turned down even starting the interview process with Facebook because the money on offer wasn't worth my time.
The job title is perhaps inflated. It’s working in a tech department with 40 people in the north part of the uk (lower cost of living) within the treasury department. From a supervisory perspective they will manage 2 apprentices , not even interns.
Doesn’t look like the individual has access to budget or autonomy to make significant purchases (I.e no good path for backhanders from vendors or consultancies)
headline feels sensationalist
Doesn’t look like the individual has access to budget or autonomy to make significant purchases (I.e no good path for backhanders from vendors or consultancies)
headline feels sensationalist
Until shit hits the fan and they blame the “head of security”.
The £57k is with London weighting. It's £50k-£54k outside London. But otherwise I agree, this is a team lead position for a small team. Grade 7 so isn't a senior civil service role.
From the job description it looks like it's a liaison role between the Treasury and other security teams. Likely turning security policy to procedures and disseminating.
From the job description it looks like it's a liaison role between the Treasury and other security teams. Likely turning security policy to procedures and disseminating.
If that's what "head of cyber" does it really demonstrates they don't take cybersecurity seriously.
The German Government isn‘t far behind. Just yesterday we advertised an E-15 (government pay scale) role for head of software architecture in Munich, which translates to roughly 60k € / year. This is what a junior software developer can expect after either a Master‘s or a year or so of experience in his first job.
The problem‘s don‘t stop there. I currently work a government job until I can start my PhD, so I know what it‘s like. Office Job workers joke about „attractive addons“ like free lunches on friday, a well stocked coffee machine, a nice looking office or a foosball table in the office. I say you don‘t know you‘re missing something until it‘s no longer there.
The German Government tends to offer nothing like this. My office is a gray block of concrete. I‘ve asked for some pictures and some greenery in the form of plants, which was denied. My office chair sucks compared to what I‘m used to, my desk looks like it came straight out of offices in the DDR. There are no free drinks in the office, no fruits or interesting lunch talks.
It‘s bleak.
The problem‘s don‘t stop there. I currently work a government job until I can start my PhD, so I know what it‘s like. Office Job workers joke about „attractive addons“ like free lunches on friday, a well stocked coffee machine, a nice looking office or a foosball table in the office. I say you don‘t know you‘re missing something until it‘s no longer there.
The German Government tends to offer nothing like this. My office is a gray block of concrete. I‘ve asked for some pictures and some greenery in the form of plants, which was denied. My office chair sucks compared to what I‘m used to, my desk looks like it came straight out of offices in the DDR. There are no free drinks in the office, no fruits or interesting lunch talks.
It‘s bleak.
There must have been something about the job that appealed to you. Why did you accept this job vs some other job in the industry?
Yes. My university is next door, so I save on commutes.
The other side of the coin is they are super easy to get because of the low pay.
I worked for a French engineering school for 3 years, on government salary (we have a weird system). It was 37k/y for a junior position, so quite low (I doubled that in 2 job switch), but I had 57 vacation days.
More than 11 weeks, not counting the 4/5 national holidays (depending on the year).
I'm building a treasury right now, but once my house is paid, I'm going back to this kind of job.
More than 11 weeks, not counting the 4/5 national holidays (depending on the year).
I'm building a treasury right now, but once my house is paid, I'm going back to this kind of job.
Government jobs in Germany are quite good depending on your perspective. Getting the Beamten status makes you basically unfireable, and the pensions are so generous that becoming Beamter with E-15 ist equivalent to a solid millionaire.
But first you much reach the pension age, that's not a gamble I'm willing to take (don't remember any relatives who reached 90 years) and until then, good luck if you want to buy a house, as these jobs are usually not on the countryside :P
Beamtenstatus is rare to come by these days.
I keep being approached for jobs in UK gov agencies, and sometimes when I tell them they can't afford me, they ask if I mind telling them by how much. Usually their range is off by a factor of 2 to 3. I get that some people want to work in government, but I can't imagine taking a pay cut like that for any employer.
Yep. And then they wonder why the government can't deliver anything.
(Government Digital Service being an exception, great work to those working there and reading this!)
(Government Digital Service being an exception, great work to those working there and reading this!)
I would love to put my skills to better use by working for the gov. Maybe it’s because I’m ex-military or just want to feel like I’m using my skills to make the world a better, safer place.
I have a family to support though, the salaries they offer are way to low for me to do that on my own.
What would you expect in a monarchy?
Why would public sector pay correlate with being a monarchy?
Because it suggests that the populace is subservient and would rather put up with the charade of pretending one family has a god given right to rule than face the fear of either rebelling against them or moving to a foreign country which is wholly self determined by the people. That kind of mentality is the same mentality that will cave and accept lower pay rather than take a risk and seek out opportunity elsewhere.
Which is, of course, why more than half the countries by top 20 by GDP per capita are monarchies (after excluding microstates of course)
Yeah and absolutely nothing to do with the fact said monarchies plundered the resources of other countries for centuries and are still dining off the spoils.
Then you'd expect the GDP growth to abate after the collapse of e.g. the British empire. Yet British GDP growth has in recent decades for the most part gone pretty much in lockstep with e.g. France, which is a republic.
Your hypothesis just does not match the data.
Your hypothesis just does not match the data.
We weren't talking about GDP though were we. We were talking about wages and pay. GDP may be high but it is concentrated in very few hands, hence you get daft job advertisements like this and you get stats saying that average wages in UK will be overtaken by Eastern European nations within the next ten years who have historically been much poorer. And if you really want to get into GDP, Britain has been sliding further down that GDP leader board for a while now with no signs of stopping.
Of the top 10 countries for median salary, 7 are monarchies. Out of the three countries above the US, all are monarchies. None of the countries above the US had an empire, and two were a part of other nations empires.
Source: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-in...
Source: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-in...
Looks like you are right again. I do still think my original sentiment is true though even if the current data does not support it. I suspect (or at least hope) that in 100 or 200 years the democracies will out earn the monarchies. Personally, I think the gold standard political system everyone should be aspiring to is Switzerland.
You've got a very strange bee in your bonnet about this.
It's about Fatima.
The government was mocked for a "tone deaf" campaign to hire from a diverse workforce and re-skill in Cyber. So when a "senior" job was advertised in Cyber, the urge to mock brewed up as seen on social media.
It is not new that government jobs bear modest salaries, nor that the inflated titles that are given to employees are not a fair reflection of the duties that they hold.
https://www.dazeddigital.com/politics/article/50747/1/a-brie...
https://www.diyphotography.net/photographer-speaks-up-after-...
The government was mocked for a "tone deaf" campaign to hire from a diverse workforce and re-skill in Cyber. So when a "senior" job was advertised in Cyber, the urge to mock brewed up as seen on social media.
It is not new that government jobs bear modest salaries, nor that the inflated titles that are given to employees are not a fair reflection of the duties that they hold.
https://www.dazeddigital.com/politics/article/50747/1/a-brie...
https://www.diyphotography.net/photographer-speaks-up-after-...
Don't mock. They know what they are doing. More likely they already have a candidate and the advert was made so that nobody with the right mind and experience will apply and only people that do apply can be quickly shown to be unfit.
It’s true they might already have a candidate in mind and have to advertise the role for fair and open competition. That candidate will still only be getting ~57k. (I’m ex civil service)
I am pretty sure a lot of these positions are lucrative outside of the salary. It might be because some political force wants to have their representative in this position. Or because the person may count on future profits after they leave the position. And there is of course possibility of some nefarious deals that we of course don't know anything about but we know stuff like this happens more frequently that we get to know.
Rishi Sunak just blew close to 10x that in a fortnight on private jet travel. Fantastic to see them getting their priorities in order.
Disclosure: left-leaning progressive
Meh, ppl comparing heads of state costs with the rest of us has always struck me as incredibly reductive and point-scoring mentality. Executive functions need to get a bigger budget than the normies (or in this case, the security "immune system"). I don't value private jets for much of anything, but maybe shuttling heads of state (as ppl in charge of our collective society, not just shareholder value) in a secure and efficient manner is one of those places?
I'd venture to guess we'll eventually discover an almost information theoretic grounding for such things. Brains do consume 20% of the human energy budget, after all ;)
Obviously being a bit handwavey here. Not in favour of corruption or getting wealthy. But the costs of the executive function don't seem served by such simple comparisons * shrug *
Meh, ppl comparing heads of state costs with the rest of us has always struck me as incredibly reductive and point-scoring mentality. Executive functions need to get a bigger budget than the normies (or in this case, the security "immune system"). I don't value private jets for much of anything, but maybe shuttling heads of state (as ppl in charge of our collective society, not just shareholder value) in a secure and efficient manner is one of those places?
I'd venture to guess we'll eventually discover an almost information theoretic grounding for such things. Brains do consume 20% of the human energy budget, after all ;)
Obviously being a bit handwavey here. Not in favour of corruption or getting wealthy. But the costs of the executive function don't seem served by such simple comparisons * shrug *
Parliamentary side (who make the rules), Vs civil service who have to work out how to actually do the work.
[deleted]
This is a salary that's fairly achievable in developing world countries. The developing world has come far.
Pay peanuts get monkeys
to be fair that's true for faangs too, compared to how much they "earn" through your work.
What’s the true value of the civil service pension though?
Rough calculation (probably wrong):
40 years of pensionable pay with an average of let’s say 65k. Divided by 80. Equals pension income of £32k yearly between retirement and death, inflation protected.
To buy an equivalent annuity would cost about £1 million. So it’s like saving an extra £25k per year over 40 years. (Although, I suppose you have the option to grow that more through investment.)
So this salary is probably competitive with an 80k private sector total comp package?
Rough calculation (probably wrong):
40 years of pensionable pay with an average of let’s say 65k. Divided by 80. Equals pension income of £32k yearly between retirement and death, inflation protected.
To buy an equivalent annuity would cost about £1 million. So it’s like saving an extra £25k per year over 40 years. (Although, I suppose you have the option to grow that more through investment.)
So this salary is probably competitive with an 80k private sector total comp package?
We don't have to run the numbers, the civil service publishes what they account for contribuging to the defined benefit pension[1], they're paying in about 27% of your salary. So it's worth about 10-15k on top of the base salary for this job.
[1]: https://www.civilservicepensionscheme.org.uk/your-pension/ma...
[1]: https://www.civilservicepensionscheme.org.uk/your-pension/ma...
This seems too low as a cost estimate. Perhaps because they have buying power that a private individual couldn’t match, or a structural surplus due to workforce demographics, or maybe it’s just rosy accounting.
Seems the current scheme lets you buy/stack, each year, a recurring annual pension worth 2.35% of your current salary (pays out every year after retirement). So with a salary of 57k, you would pay something like 4k this year to secure £1340 (inflation linked) every year of retirement.
That’s insanely good value if you don’t have so many years left. I suppose if you have 20 years left, and you get an extra 10k private sector salary, and invest that for retirement, then it maybe breaks even with 7% compounding growth, but even then you have to contend with inflation and market risk. I think the fair value is more like an extra 20-30k salary.
Seems the current scheme lets you buy/stack, each year, a recurring annual pension worth 2.35% of your current salary (pays out every year after retirement). So with a salary of 57k, you would pay something like 4k this year to secure £1340 (inflation linked) every year of retirement.
That’s insanely good value if you don’t have so many years left. I suppose if you have 20 years left, and you get an extra 10k private sector salary, and invest that for retirement, then it maybe breaks even with 7% compounding growth, but even then you have to contend with inflation and market risk. I think the fair value is more like an extra 20-30k salary.
It’s worth considerably more than that as an individual since you lose any investment risk, and contributing the same as employer + employee contribution to a pension is unlikely to get you benefits on retirement with the same annual payment.
Is there a place in the US that has tech jobs, has warm weather and has low gun crime? I too wish to jump off "HMS Sinking".
California :)
Compared to the US, median income (after adjusting for purchasing power) is low in Europe and abysmally low in the UK [0]. This is especially true for tech salaries [1].
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/11m6isp/median_hou...
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23427327
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/11m6isp/median_hou...
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23427327
Maybe the govt doesn't want to externally fill this role, and instead give it to their buddy. Hence they are trying to make it as unappealing as possible.
If you can stomach the pay (frugal or independently wealthy) the position would be a great step up a career ladder when returning to the private sector.
That is not at all clear to me. Why do you think so?
Goverment connections are a big plus when it comes to the private sector especially at the C level. You tend to find alot of people moving from the FCA or PRA which pay poorly to senior private companies. When new info/regs are coming they can just pick up the phone and ask about them.
I was looking the other day in the UK gov site Data Analyst with several requirements and experience, £27K
Must be some standard public pay scales
Must be some standard public pay scales
Curious what that translates to in terms of lifestyle after taxes come out. What amount would you reasonably have left for rent?
[deleted]
Rightly so. Change the job title, or change the salary.
State employees earn very little which is why they carry out their own extra curricular criminal activity to top up their wages.
What they lack in official wages, they more than make up with by using criminal loopholes and sailing close to the wind, like any nation proud of its pirated seafaring heritage, its where the saying cross someone's palm with silver comes from, also known as Danegeld.
What they lack in official wages, they more than make up with by using criminal loopholes and sailing close to the wind, like any nation proud of its pirated seafaring heritage, its where the saying cross someone's palm with silver comes from, also known as Danegeld.
I get paid well for the UK - but I could triple or even quadruple my salary in the US/Australia. Combined with relatively high taxes (my marginal tax rate is 60%) - it isn't a great value proposition for many professionals, and despite the luxuries (healthcare, gun control) - almost everyone I know is eyeing the exit.