White Flight from Asian Immigration: Evidence from California Public Schools(nber.org)
nber.org
White Flight from Asian Immigration: Evidence from California Public Schools
https://www.nber.org/papers/w31434
69 comments
No, if they've done their data analysis right (and I dunno...) they're saying it's actually _flight_ b/c whites leave faster than Asians arrive, and apparently they confirm by getting this number by more than one route. They hammer on this in multiple sections:
"our estimate of white flight from Asian entry in high-SES districts is larger, with each new Asian student leading to 1.5 white student departures"
"Overall, we find a 1.5-to-one departure rate for the average suburban district, which is above the one-for-one threshold that would pertain to a pure housing market response."
"In this case, we use Census data from 2000 and 2010 and find that each Asian arrival in a district leads to the departure of -1.5 white households with children, a number very similar to our baseline estimate."
"our estimate of white flight from Asian entry in high-SES districts is larger, with each new Asian student leading to 1.5 white student departures"
"Overall, we find a 1.5-to-one departure rate for the average suburban district, which is above the one-for-one threshold that would pertain to a pure housing market response."
"In this case, we use Census data from 2000 and 2010 and find that each Asian arrival in a district leads to the departure of -1.5 white households with children, a number very similar to our baseline estimate."
So are there tons of vacant houses? I’m guessing they aren’t including other races that are also moving in
But also when one family with school aged kids moves out, some proportion of the time, the buyers don't have kids. The houses don't have to be vacant for their stated number to hold. I didn't look closely but their data did consider other racial groups.
> Since Asians on average are both wealthier and earn more than average Caucasian families
That's superficially true because most asians are concentrated in high cost of living areas and major cities while the white population is distributed all over the country ( both high cost and low cost areas ). If you take an asian nurse in LA ( 100K) and compare her salaray against the average of a white nurse in LA (100K) and a white nurse in rural missouri (50K), of course the 100K asian > 75K white average. But that's a bit misleading because the white nurse in LA earns as much as the asian nurse in LA. Granted asians are concentrated in these areas due to the long history of racism against asians in america, but stats are stats.
> isn’t using the term “White flight” a bit incorrect due to its connotations?
Only if you believe white flight is income based rather than race based. Pretty sure it is race based. I don't think people were vetting their minority neighbors' income and work history before deciding to flee for whiter pastures.
> I’m the product of white and Chinese heritage and this feels true to me.
My condolences.
That's superficially true because most asians are concentrated in high cost of living areas and major cities while the white population is distributed all over the country ( both high cost and low cost areas ). If you take an asian nurse in LA ( 100K) and compare her salaray against the average of a white nurse in LA (100K) and a white nurse in rural missouri (50K), of course the 100K asian > 75K white average. But that's a bit misleading because the white nurse in LA earns as much as the asian nurse in LA. Granted asians are concentrated in these areas due to the long history of racism against asians in america, but stats are stats.
> isn’t using the term “White flight” a bit incorrect due to its connotations?
Only if you believe white flight is income based rather than race based. Pretty sure it is race based. I don't think people were vetting their minority neighbors' income and work history before deciding to flee for whiter pastures.
> I’m the product of white and Chinese heritage and this feels true to me.
My condolences.
"My condolences."
Excuse me? Also I see you failed to read the comment.
Excuse me? Also I see you failed to read the comment.
I must have misread it. I could have sworn that you wrote you experienced white flight due to your chinese heritage.
If it were any other pair of races, yes. However if it involves white people, the whites must always be cast as the evil ones.
"These patterns cannot be fully explained by racial animus, housing prices, or correlations with Black/Hispanic arrivals. Parental fears of academic competition may play a role."
This is utterly insane. As if the average white family are completely and utterly mobile and financially robust enough to whimsically change their kids schooling over fear of "competition" from Asians.
This is so outrageously reductionist it has to be agenda driven.
This is utterly insane. As if the average white family are completely and utterly mobile and financially robust enough to whimsically change their kids schooling over fear of "competition" from Asians.
This is so outrageously reductionist it has to be agenda driven.
I have friends (Asian) that wont put their kids on some of the mostly asian schools in the Bay Area, even though they are top schools, as the competition is too much and they don't want to raise unhappy kids.
Basically, over-emphasis at academics at any costs in the first/second gen asians (either Chinese or Korean), raises unhappy kids (this was by two of my asian friends).
My guess, rich white parents might view it the same, and they want to have a more free form/wholesome type of environment for their kids.
Take it as you will... (Ps. I am not american and I don't have kids, so I don't have a horse in this race, pun intended)
Basically, over-emphasis at academics at any costs in the first/second gen asians (either Chinese or Korean), raises unhappy kids (this was by two of my asian friends).
My guess, rich white parents might view it the same, and they want to have a more free form/wholesome type of environment for their kids.
Take it as you will... (Ps. I am not american and I don't have kids, so I don't have a horse in this race, pun intended)
I really didn’t see it, but I have a friend (mixed white/Chinese family) who did the same: took his kids out of very well regarded white/Asian schools because he thought the students and teachers were too aggressive in academics. They are still in accelerated classes (in private schools), just with more diversity and less focus on one way to succeed.
Change like this happens at the margins. Families already moving will choose one district over another due to factors; people faced with the possibility of moving (job offer) will take it or decline due to factors. Over time, these effects accumulate into something statistically observable. The caricature of people immediately putting their house on the market when a new neighbor arrives need not ever actually occur.
Presumably, the study is not referring to average white families. In the summary, it says
> high-socioeconomic-status Californian school districts
> high-socioeconomic-status Californian school districts
It is elaborated on at the end of the second and in the third paragraphs:
«In particular, some white parents worry that their own children will suffer from competition in schools with high Asian enrollment or that the curriculum will emphasize academics at the expense of sports or other priorities»
and
«Many White parents say they’re leaving because the schools are too academically driven and too narrowly invested in subjects such as math and science at the expense of liberal arts and extracurriculars like sports […]»
Effectively, some White parents appear to be imbued with the existential fear that their children are going to discover that a football field or a washing machine are not valid units of measure after all.
«In particular, some white parents worry that their own children will suffer from competition in schools with high Asian enrollment or that the curriculum will emphasize academics at the expense of sports or other priorities»
and
«Many White parents say they’re leaving because the schools are too academically driven and too narrowly invested in subjects such as math and science at the expense of liberal arts and extracurriculars like sports […]»
Effectively, some White parents appear to be imbued with the existential fear that their children are going to discover that a football field or a washing machine are not valid units of measure after all.
Instinct has just become aware of its irrelevance... and it will not go down without a bloody flight*. :D
This description is very consistent with some comments from parents that I encountered in the peninsula, when I lived there a decade ago. Avoiding heavily east Asian areas would be a factor I'd expect them to make in deciding on school district. Some cafes around Santa Clara were shockingly filled to the brim with Chinese or Korean high schoolers doing schoolwork -- it was an absolutely disturbing sight. I wouldn't call it fear of competition so much as a desire to have kids grow up in a good culture.
> …filled to the brim with Chinese or Korean high schoolers doing schoolwork -- it was an absolutely disturbing sight
Hard as I try I cannot summon an image of such an eldritch horror as you’ve described. I fear if did I would be driven to a madness that I might never recover from by the very sight of such a terrifying visage.
Kids… doing homework… in a cafe. I taste the bile of a nameless demon rise in my throat even typing the words. I shudder to banish the thought.
Hard as I try I cannot summon an image of such an eldritch horror as you’ve described. I fear if did I would be driven to a madness that I might never recover from by the very sight of such a terrifying visage.
Kids… doing homework… in a cafe. I taste the bile of a nameless demon rise in my throat even typing the words. I shudder to banish the thought.
Kids still do homework?!
(For additional irony, please see my about me. :D)
(For additional irony, please see my about me. :D)
"good culture" == "not Asian American culture" apparently?
I think this is exactly the thing that the authors skate right past. "Parental fears of academic competition" is assumed to be fully disjoint with "racial animus". What if "fears of ... competition" is just one way to racial animus without expressing explicitly negative attitudes on surveys?
And yes, this is a swipe at both the parent and the paper authors for not seriously considering this. The authors have literally a 2-sentence paragraph on animus and later claim to have ruled it out. And literally, you cannot take surveys at face value for something like this. People will not and sometimes cannot be honest.
I think this is exactly the thing that the authors skate right past. "Parental fears of academic competition" is assumed to be fully disjoint with "racial animus". What if "fears of ... competition" is just one way to racial animus without expressing explicitly negative attitudes on surveys?
And yes, this is a swipe at both the parent and the paper authors for not seriously considering this. The authors have literally a 2-sentence paragraph on animus and later claim to have ruled it out. And literally, you cannot take surveys at face value for something like this. People will not and sometimes cannot be honest.
I can't read minds but "racial animus" would certainly be a strange conclusion to jump to with the people I was talking to.
> "good culture" == "not Asian American culture"
Again in just a few replies: What I can honestly only interpret as a bad-faith hyper-reduction. I understand that people tend to jump to accusations of racism with just as much unreasonableness as the people actually being racist, but I'd love a better effort to keep that away from here in particular.
Again in just a few replies: What I can honestly only interpret as a bad-faith hyper-reduction. I understand that people tend to jump to accusations of racism with just as much unreasonableness as the people actually being racist, but I'd love a better effort to keep that away from here in particular.
1. Was it like that daily, or just around exams? It's perfectly normal to crunch during exams.
2. Even if it was like that daily, how do you know the Asian kids weren't still playing and enjoying time with friends? Maybe the time they spent studying is just the free time the non-Asian kids spent addicted on the Playstation, and not all their free time.
3. Are there any studies that show Asian-American kids turn out more miserable than other races? Because AFAIK there's no one more depressed than white people. (which is kind of understandable considering modern American culture tries to brainwash them since early childhood to hate themselves, but still...)
2. Even if it was like that daily, how do you know the Asian kids weren't still playing and enjoying time with friends? Maybe the time they spent studying is just the free time the non-Asian kids spent addicted on the Playstation, and not all their free time.
3. Are there any studies that show Asian-American kids turn out more miserable than other races? Because AFAIK there's no one more depressed than white people. (which is kind of understandable considering modern American culture tries to brainwash them since early childhood to hate themselves, but still...)
This is just second-hand chit-chat from Bay Area parents, mostly living in Palo Alto/Los Altos/MV/Sunnyvale/Cupertino, about their kids' lives, that I'm talking about.
> Even if it was like that daily, how do you know the Asian kids weren't still playing and enjoying time with friends?
I didn't go and measure daily -- I avoided the place because I didn't want to hang around a bunch of high schoolers -- but it's a sight, and a vibe, that would simply never happen, ever, where I grew up.
It's not like every kid in the school district was there, with nobody left to play on the sports teams.
> Even if it was like that daily, how do you know the Asian kids weren't still playing and enjoying time with friends?
I didn't go and measure daily -- I avoided the place because I didn't want to hang around a bunch of high schoolers -- but it's a sight, and a vibe, that would simply never happen, ever, where I grew up.
It's not like every kid in the school district was there, with nobody left to play on the sports teams.
What's the problem with children doing homework in cafes? The homework needs to get done anyways, and if anything it's an indicator of a safe neighborhood where children socialize while they do homework in a third place rather than in school or at home.
Disturbing?
Yes, kids spending their after school time doing homework and maxing test scores instead of having a childhood is disturbing.
Children and their parents exercising their freedom to do whatever they want is disturbing to you? Because some predetermined definition of “having a childhood” is not being met? I’m not arguing that this is the best use of their time, but neither is anything else within bounds of normal decorum.
> Children and their parents exercising their freedom to do whatever they want
Aside from the dubious assertion that the children and parents want the same thing, this is reduced to the point of absurdity. You can disagree with the parent's opinion on the subject, but you should at least formulate that disagreement in the context of the subject.
Aside from the dubious assertion that the children and parents want the same thing, this is reduced to the point of absurdity. You can disagree with the parent's opinion on the subject, but you should at least formulate that disagreement in the context of the subject.
I would argue that the children are explicitly not free to do whatever they want, which is what is disturbing about it.
I dunno, when I was a kid I didn't want to play sports but my parents kept signing me up for teams. Is that "disturbing"? I also didn't want to eat my vegetables or go to bed on time. A _lot_ of what kids do isn't going to be what they would have chosen for themselves, and that's ... parenting I think?
Is it just the word “disturbing” you take issue with? Maybe it is too strong. Is “weird” okay? Because if I’m being honest, I have never in my life seen a cafe “filled to the brim” with students doing school work, and I live near several large universities. It would indeed be weird to see that, especially so if the students were in high school!
Maybe not disturbing, fine. But very weird.
Maybe not disturbing, fine. But very weird.
Have u seen the average successful CEOs resumes like Zuckerberg and Gates about how early they got their private tuitions on programming? Maybe some ppl want those kinds things for their own children. Should they?
I'd argue: no. There's more to life than money and academic achievement, and good parents will convey that to their kids. Nobody needs billions of dollars to be happy. I taught myself programming because I enjoyed it, and now I have a job that I enjoy (that happens to pay really well as well).
You completely missed my point. I was saying that singling out so called 'Asians' parents itself is racist. There are white parents who are doing it. There are black parents who are doing it. There are whatever parents are doing it. There are competitive parents everywhere
Especially when they are talking about California where the silicon valley sits, maybe check out the bigger picuture before pinning it on some races?
Especially when they are talking about California where the silicon valley sits, maybe check out the bigger picuture before pinning it on some races?
Have I lost my mind?
“kids spending their after school time doing homework”
Uh… what do you think homework is for? When is it traditionally done?
Have you ever done homework before???
“kids spending their after school time doing homework”
Uh… what do you think homework is for? When is it traditionally done?
Have you ever done homework before???
Traditionally I think it's done as rapidly and haphazardly as possible during homeroom. It's right there in the word, home-room.
What I saw is basically the embodiment of this chart. (And remember that the "Asian" number dilutes out the Chinese and Korean numbers.)
https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2012/2012026/tables/table_35.asp
What I saw is basically the embodiment of this chart. (And remember that the "Asian" number dilutes out the Chinese and Korean numbers.)
https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2012/2012026/tables/table_35.asp
I have to agree with the parent that "disturbing" is not an unreasonable feeling to have in regards to witnessing a cultural take-over when that culture has features that seem negative from the perspective of one's own culture.
(a) neither whites nor Asians are a "culture"
(b) kids sitting at cafes doing homework is not a "takeover"
(c) California was home to a bunch of Native American nations, who were then genocided by the Spanish. A bunch of foreign people, largely Americans, moved into Mexican Alta California (without papers!), mostly did not learn any of the local languages, and tried to start their own republic before being annexed by the US. There _have_ been takeovers here. Kids doing homework is not one of them.
(d) What's more disturbing, some Asian kids doing schoolwork or white people making sure that schools are more segregated now than they were before Brown v Board?
(b) kids sitting at cafes doing homework is not a "takeover"
(c) California was home to a bunch of Native American nations, who were then genocided by the Spanish. A bunch of foreign people, largely Americans, moved into Mexican Alta California (without papers!), mostly did not learn any of the local languages, and tried to start their own republic before being annexed by the US. There _have_ been takeovers here. Kids doing homework is not one of them.
(d) What's more disturbing, some Asian kids doing schoolwork or white people making sure that schools are more segregated now than they were before Brown v Board?
Kids doing homework? That's horrible, those Asians bringing their homework over here.
A direct link to the pdf: https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w31434/w314...
"the enrollment of one Asian student leads to 1.5 white departures on average"
"Another simple explanation for white flight could be a direct distaste for interacting with Asian peers. However, this account is not consistent with the fact that white flight is only observed in high-SES school districts, given that high-income and more-educated respondents are less likely (rather than more likely) to express negative attitudes toward Asian Americans on surveys."
They claim to "rule out" "direct racial animus", but they don't really back that up with anything. They don't even cite anything supporting their survey claim, they just throw out that comment. But maybe high-SES white people have just learned not to express "negative" attitudes towards racial groups on surveys?
"the enrollment of one Asian student leads to 1.5 white departures on average"
"Another simple explanation for white flight could be a direct distaste for interacting with Asian peers. However, this account is not consistent with the fact that white flight is only observed in high-SES school districts, given that high-income and more-educated respondents are less likely (rather than more likely) to express negative attitudes toward Asian Americans on surveys."
They claim to "rule out" "direct racial animus", but they don't really back that up with anything. They don't even cite anything supporting their survey claim, they just throw out that comment. But maybe high-SES white people have just learned not to express "negative" attitudes towards racial groups on surveys?
Here's the actual paper: https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w31434/w314...
DOI 10.3386/w31434 (not on sci-hub yet)
DOI 10.3386/w31434 (not on sci-hub yet)
I guess it's a bad sign for the discussion that currently the two posts trying to point to the actual document are at the very bottom.
Whites move in = gentrification
Whites move out = white flight
It do be like that, don't it?
White person treats people differently based on race = racist
White person treats people the same regardless of race = racist
White parent doesn't want their 3rd grader being taught they are an oppressor = racist parent
White person treats people differently based on race = racist
White person treats people the same regardless of race = racist
White parent doesn't want their 3rd grader being taught they are an oppressor = racist parent
I don't even disagree despite my other comment and I'm not even white.
It's true when the moving in/out is done in significant enough numbers to find a correlation.
In my area the top realtors are Chinese and specialize in investment properties for wealthy Chinese. The white/Hispanic locals who used to live here can't afford to compete in the market and so are leaving.
Asians are the leading demographic group in income and educational achievement now. Whites don't even come close in aggregate.
Asians are the leading demographic group in income and educational achievement now. Whites don't even come close in aggregate.
Typically these are described as causal factors, more than correlation is required here.
> Whites move in = gentrification
Who says that?
Who says that?
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I moved out of the Bay a few years ago and I do feel out of place in Cupertino when I go back to visit. It feels like Chinatown, literally every single restaurant is Chinese, Japanese, or Korean and most businesses I used to visit have been replaced with boba shops and after school tutoring centers.
I don’t hate Asian people, my best friend is Chinese, but I do feel like I do not belong when I hang out there. Their culture is pretty insular, rather than assimilating with American culture it feels like they just keep their own and the sense of being an outsider is strong when I spend time with my friends there.
On the whole I am glad I moved out to a place where I have more in common with my neighbors and we share more cultural similarities.
I don’t hate Asian people, my best friend is Chinese, but I do feel like I do not belong when I hang out there. Their culture is pretty insular, rather than assimilating with American culture it feels like they just keep their own and the sense of being an outsider is strong when I spend time with my friends there.
On the whole I am glad I moved out to a place where I have more in common with my neighbors and we share more cultural similarities.
> On the whole I am glad I moved out to a place where I have more in common with my neighbors and we share more cultural similarities.
I think it's strange that we agonize over race-based cultural differences, but totally accept socioeconomic differences without question.
It's okay to say "I don't wanna live in the ghetto", but not okay to say "I don't want to live in a culturally unassimilated neighborhood"
I think it's strange that we agonize over race-based cultural differences, but totally accept socioeconomic differences without question.
It's okay to say "I don't wanna live in the ghetto", but not okay to say "I don't want to live in a culturally unassimilated neighborhood"
If there’s a school that can enroll one thousand students and you enroll fifty additional Asian students they will displace other fifty other students. If the majority is white it seems to reason that the majority of those displaced will be white.
Also one would have to considered the policy around admissions regarding things like affirmative action and equity.
Also one would have to considered the policy around admissions regarding things like affirmative action and equity.
That's not what the paper is about at all; it specifically notes that white students leave at higher rates than Asian ones come in.
That is total enrollment in the schools are decreasing.
That is total enrollment in the schools are decreasing.
I had this thought also, but _surely_ they must control for that right??? Also, maybe there is an average family size difference? Not sure. But ya given this is CA we are talking about here, the housing stock in a given area (in the rich areas anyway) is basically static, I would think its basically zero sum, if one family is moving in, another is moving out (displacement).
A lot of this could be explained by americans just selling their properties to people who made their money in less progressive societies and economies. Coming to the US means you are in an upper income and education percentile in your home country, which may have over a billion people. Compared to someone from India who was educated internationally or is the child of a party member in China, the average american is a bumpkin. Wealth from more unequal societies across the pacific is on a level most westerners can't comprehend.
Why shouldn't it be the case that middle class americans use the money from much wealthier newcomers to move to places they know they can thrive outside the main cities, but where newcomers would have thinner networks and fewer opportunities?
It was white flight when immigration rates were much lower and cities like Detroit needed a business tax base but exiled it by electing marxists in the 70s and 80s, where now, wealth comes from overseas and cities don't need "white" people to fund them. Whether Asian immigrants will also leave cities as they collapse under similar policies remains to be seen, as no matter how chaotic SF gets, it will never approach anything on the level of a BRIC megacity. Racism seems like the simplest explanation, but that's all it is, and it's getting boring.
Why shouldn't it be the case that middle class americans use the money from much wealthier newcomers to move to places they know they can thrive outside the main cities, but where newcomers would have thinner networks and fewer opportunities?
It was white flight when immigration rates were much lower and cities like Detroit needed a business tax base but exiled it by electing marxists in the 70s and 80s, where now, wealth comes from overseas and cities don't need "white" people to fund them. Whether Asian immigrants will also leave cities as they collapse under similar policies remains to be seen, as no matter how chaotic SF gets, it will never approach anything on the level of a BRIC megacity. Racism seems like the simplest explanation, but that's all it is, and it's getting boring.
Honestly sounds like a group of people who got paid money to spread speculative racist theories. They in no way established the argument they were proposing, they just eliminated other arguments and just speculated as to what the explanation could be. In this case white jealousy of Asians.
This all being said, if we see a huge surge in white flight after the end of affirmative action I guess I'll have to eat crow. If their theory is correct and facts > my feelings that's exactly what we will see. If their theory is just racist bunkum we'll see no such thing.
This all being said, if we see a huge surge in white flight after the end of affirmative action I guess I'll have to eat crow. If their theory is correct and facts > my feelings that's exactly what we will see. If their theory is just racist bunkum we'll see no such thing.
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a wise parent right now would certainly be having their child learn some mandarin in youth
How would knowing “some” mandarin be helpful to American kids?
why would most of the curriculum be helpful?
Wouldn’t the better term be “Asian gentrification of lower income white communities?”
I’m half joking here and half serious. In reality I see what the paper is saying and I tend to agree. It’s hard to say there is a “white” culture but at the upper end the is a shared sort of blue blood set of values that this paper addresses. Those values strongly lean into diverse and well rounded child rearing and wholistic development. The likely hood that Asian families create academic focused game theory problems by beating out students who focus on more wholistic education feels believable. However ultimately those values i think disappear by the second generation.
On the whole I think this paper is trying to point out that white upper class culture finds Asian cultural definitions of success mildly offensive, and to protect their ways move out.
I’m the product of white and Chinese heritage and this feels true to me.