Review: Beepy a Palm-Sized Linux Hacking Playground(hackaday.com)
hackaday.com
Review: Beepy a Palm-Sized Linux Hacking Playground
https://hackaday.com/2023/08/07/review-beepy-a-palm-sized-linux-hacking-playground/
51 comments
i think i was the naysayer you're talking about (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35980709) and i have one slight correction
i think the display is fucking awesome
just. not for this
for applications where its lack of backlight and grayscale mean you get a significantly longer battery life, or smaller battery, or no battery at all
being able to maintain the display on 50μW means you can run it off a cr2032 coin cell for 17 months
if you pair that with a cpu that's using some similar amount of power, probably due to being in a low-power deep-sleep mode 99+% of the time, you can get a month or two of interactive computing out of a coin cell. a sleeping esp32 is supposedly around 10μW, and at full speed it's about 200 32-bit mips at 1 watt. microcontrollers are typically an order of magnitude lower energy per instruction. ambiq's microcontrollers are two orders of magnitude lower, like 30 picojoules per instruction, so 100 μW should give you 3 mips
400×240 is half the screen resolution of the original macintosh, and the same as the vt100, though with a different aspect ratio
so you can get a vax in your pocket that runs off a coin cell for six months
that's motherfucking amazing
but that is not this product
which reminds me, i'm late for a pairing session on a jit compiler targeting the ambiq apollo3 ultra-low-power 48 megahertz cortex-m4f
i think the display is fucking awesome
just. not for this
for applications where its lack of backlight and grayscale mean you get a significantly longer battery life, or smaller battery, or no battery at all
being able to maintain the display on 50μW means you can run it off a cr2032 coin cell for 17 months
if you pair that with a cpu that's using some similar amount of power, probably due to being in a low-power deep-sleep mode 99+% of the time, you can get a month or two of interactive computing out of a coin cell. a sleeping esp32 is supposedly around 10μW, and at full speed it's about 200 32-bit mips at 1 watt. microcontrollers are typically an order of magnitude lower energy per instruction. ambiq's microcontrollers are two orders of magnitude lower, like 30 picojoules per instruction, so 100 μW should give you 3 mips
400×240 is half the screen resolution of the original macintosh, and the same as the vt100, though with a different aspect ratio
so you can get a vax in your pocket that runs off a coin cell for six months
that's motherfucking amazing
but that is not this product
which reminds me, i'm late for a pairing session on a jit compiler targeting the ambiq apollo3 ultra-low-power 48 megahertz cortex-m4f
> so you can get a vax in your pocket that runs off a coin cell for six months
I mentioned this last time as well; I hope someone makes this device like that. I would be happy with it. The apollo3 is nice and I enjoy working with it. I would implement a little OS for fun for a device like this if it existed.
On the form factor; a clamshell would be better.
I mentioned this last time as well; I hope someone makes this device like that. I would be happy with it. The apollo3 is nice and I enjoy working with it. I would implement a little OS for fun for a device like this if it existed.
On the form factor; a clamshell would be better.
so, a drawback of the apollo3 (and actually every cpu i've found with a decent deep-sleep state) over an actual vax is that it doesn't have virtual memory or much in the way of memory protection
my current plan is for my nascent jit compiler to implement paged virtual memory using bytecodes for paged-load-byte, paged-load-halfword, paged-load-word, paged-load-multiple, paged-store-byte, paged-store-halfword, paged-store-word, and paged-store-multiple, so that i can compile existing c to its bytecode instruction set; these will be implemented by calls to millicode subroutines
c call and return, argument passing, and accesses to local variables whose addresses are never taken, can be provided by mechanisms that don't involve accessing a paged virtual memory space
i think, and i might be wrong about this, that this will be sufficient to run things like libpng and pcc at useful speeds
if not, i might have to lean harder on making the jit compiler smart
what approach would you take
i very much agree about the clamshell; that would also make it possible to include a keyboard big enough to touch-type on
my current plan is for my nascent jit compiler to implement paged virtual memory using bytecodes for paged-load-byte, paged-load-halfword, paged-load-word, paged-load-multiple, paged-store-byte, paged-store-halfword, paged-store-word, and paged-store-multiple, so that i can compile existing c to its bytecode instruction set; these will be implemented by calls to millicode subroutines
c call and return, argument passing, and accesses to local variables whose addresses are never taken, can be provided by mechanisms that don't involve accessing a paged virtual memory space
i think, and i might be wrong about this, that this will be sufficient to run things like libpng and pcc at useful speeds
if not, i might have to lean harder on making the jit compiler smart
what approach would you take
i very much agree about the clamshell; that would also make it possible to include a keyboard big enough to touch-type on
I wish I had something useful to say, but that sounds honestly amazing. If you could do wifi at the same time, then that'd be a perfect email/ssh/irc device.
i think that the esp32 is probably a decent microcontroller to use for this purpose, in place of the pi zero; it does have a decent sleep mode and also wifi
its energy efficiency per instruction is not the best but is certainly acceptable
its energy efficiency per instruction is not the best but is certainly acceptable
I actually almost exclusively use mine outside now. I sit outside on my deck with my cat lol. It’s a nice little after work treat of reading some blogs on lynx with a beer and a cat.
But I hate using it inside. I almost want like one of the gameboy worm lights adapted to this.
I also don’t regret buying this at all.
But I hate using it inside. I almost want like one of the gameboy worm lights adapted to this.
I also don’t regret buying this at all.
I also got a Beepberry (which arrived as a Beepy, so I should probably stop deadnaming it) and I generally concur with your analysis. I'm definitely not getting anywhere near the top end of the projected battery life scale with a Pi Zero 2 W installed, nothing much useful fits on the display, and I have to sit under more light than I'd like hitting my eyeballs to read the screen.
Incidentally, there exists now a functional analogue - complete with scavenged BB keyboard - sporting an ESP32 and a backlit screen in place of the Pi0 and memory LCD: the Liligo T-Deck. I don't need one, and I won't write software that runs on it, but I still want one because cute LoRa thing.
Incidentally, there exists now a functional analogue - complete with scavenged BB keyboard - sporting an ESP32 and a backlit screen in place of the Pi0 and memory LCD: the Liligo T-Deck. I don't need one, and I won't write software that runs on it, but I still want one because cute LoRa thing.
The T-deck is based on ESP32-S3 which has a 128b simd data path too.
And apparently it can boot linux too [0] :). My ideal device would have
uC - ESP32/nrf Display - Memory LCD Keypad LoRa GPS LTE (optional) And yes - opensource firmware
Will happily drop the smartphone for such an above device.
[0] https://gojimmypi.github.io/ESP32-S3-Linux/
uC - ESP32/nrf Display - Memory LCD Keypad LoRa GPS LTE (optional) And yes - opensource firmware
Will happily drop the smartphone for such an above device.
[0] https://gojimmypi.github.io/ESP32-S3-Linux/
I can't imagine dropping Android for any other device, but ESP32 Linux looks like it has real potential.
I'd love to see it integrated with Arduino, so we could finally have easy to make, loadable, sharable apps on small devices.
I'd love to see it integrated with Arduino, so we could finally have easy to make, loadable, sharable apps on small devices.
Ooh, the T-Deck [1] looks pretty excellent, I agree. That BB keyboard...
1: https://www.lilygo.cc/products/t-deck
1: https://www.lilygo.cc/products/t-deck
It is pretty nice isn't it. Now can someone please make one with a nice metal case and the ability to run android on it. Then I can basically have my replacement for my much missed Nokia E71.
Judging from pictures, it seems the user would be looking up from bottom side of the screen under normal uses. LCDs are not designed for that.
I think an "alpha" version cases should be basis for PCB, and both should co-develop. The "case will be available later" approach is only acceptable for benchtop prototypes.
I think an "alpha" version cases should be basis for PCB, and both should co-develop. The "case will be available later" approach is only acceptable for benchtop prototypes.
these memory lcds seem to have a pretty wide viewing angle under sunlight
Why can the Pi not do low power like an Android phone can? Seems like there's enough use cases that it should be figured out by now and idle power should be under 50mA in some kind of wait for events mode.
my comment on this three months ago got upvoted to the top of the thread, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35980709
basically, i said the ultra-low-power screen is wasted by using a cpu that uses ten thousand times as much power
it would make more sense to use either an ultra-low-power cpu, getting orders of magnitude more battery life (and probably reducing the weight and charge time of the battery), or a screen that takes advantage of the orders of magnitude more power available, with features such as backlighting, grayscale (the memory lcd is really only black and white with no shades of gray), or even color
summary from the thread:
> unfortunately, their current design seems to have a fatal flaw that renders it useless for its intended purpose ['a weekend chat device' according to erohead], but one that's easily fixed
> my comments are not shitting on it; they explain how to fix it, providing information the original designers were evidently unaware of, so that they can ship a product that fulfills its intended purpose, which would probably make them a few tens of thousands of dollars. up to them if they want to do it or not; i'm not an investor. if they don't, probably someone else will
comments here from people who are trying the device seem to support my calculation that the battery only lasts the few hours i calculated rather than the intended weekend
basically, i said the ultra-low-power screen is wasted by using a cpu that uses ten thousand times as much power
it would make more sense to use either an ultra-low-power cpu, getting orders of magnitude more battery life (and probably reducing the weight and charge time of the battery), or a screen that takes advantage of the orders of magnitude more power available, with features such as backlighting, grayscale (the memory lcd is really only black and white with no shades of gray), or even color
summary from the thread:
> unfortunately, their current design seems to have a fatal flaw that renders it useless for its intended purpose ['a weekend chat device' according to erohead], but one that's easily fixed
> my comments are not shitting on it; they explain how to fix it, providing information the original designers were evidently unaware of, so that they can ship a product that fulfills its intended purpose, which would probably make them a few tens of thousands of dollars. up to them if they want to do it or not; i'm not an investor. if they don't, probably someone else will
comments here from people who are trying the device seem to support my calculation that the battery only lasts the few hours i calculated rather than the intended weekend
The screen/keyboard interface/etc. connects to the Pi Zero via GPIO, not USB, so it should be...I won't say trivial, but entirely feasible to swap the Pi for a uC. Some folks on the Discord instance have already shown examples of other devices connected to the Beepy motherboard (and one person even posted a Pocket CHIP wired to a Pi, which is a nice bit of continuity).
tl;dr I'm certain this is coming
tl;dr I'm certain this is coming
that sounds fantastic, and i look forward to seeing the results
i had an instance of the first blackberry (which was before the 'blackberry' branding; it just said 'rim, research in motion'), and it had the best handheld keyboard i've ever used. the later blackberry keyboards seem quite reasonable too
i had an instance of the first blackberry (which was before the 'blackberry' branding; it just said 'rim, research in motion'), and it had the best handheld keyboard i've ever used. the later blackberry keyboards seem quite reasonable too
I’d love if the old Symbian QWERTY phones made a comeback. I had a cheap Nokia X2-01 (https://m.gsmarena.com/nokia_x2_01-3610.php) running S40, and it did XMPP, E-mail pretty fine.
Just make those with a slightly more powerful/modern SoC and let me run Pidgin.
Just make those with a slightly more powerful/modern SoC and let me run Pidgin.
I came across the Unihertz Titan Pocket [1] yesterday which might interest you. Small, android QWERTY phone which looks pretty cool, depending on your use-case.
[1] https://www.unihertz.com/products/titan-pocket
[1] https://www.unihertz.com/products/titan-pocket
I had the unihertz atom for a while and it was a terrible device with poor software and support. You would think, given it’s based on android you could reflash with something useful but no, they don’t provide you the necessary drivers and stuff to do this.
Avoid these chancers.
Avoid these chancers.
My experience with SQFMI's Watchy has been disappointing. As noted in the review - there is close to zero documentation.
There is a Discord (that they rarely appear in) where people try to make sense of the random collection of buggy software - but it is a chore.
I like tinkering and exploring. But I get the impression that they think their customers appreciate the level of disrespect SQFMI show them.
There is a Discord (that they rarely appear in) where people try to make sense of the random collection of buggy software - but it is a chore.
I like tinkering and exploring. But I get the impression that they think their customers appreciate the level of disrespect SQFMI show them.
The out of the box experience for beepy is better, standard raspberry pi linux plus some drivers, with a script that installs them. Watchy had a supposed easy way to install watch faces that I could never ever make work, had to join the discord and use some other method that worked with only certain faces.
But I think the appeal is that these little basically unsupported boards are inexpensive and do have a community that will help, hidden away on discord.
But I think the appeal is that these little basically unsupported boards are inexpensive and do have a community that will help, hidden away on discord.
> [...] if you add Android and Chrome OS into the mix, there are millions and millions of people who are using Linux on daily basis and don’t even realize it.
Actually, if you consider Android, that would be around billions.
Actually, if you consider Android, that would be around billions.
I get "Billions of devices run java." vibes from this, even if it's not a comparable statement.
Would be cool to have a linux shell running in a smartcard though.
Would be cool to have a linux shell running in a smartcard though.
> if you add Android and Chrome OS into the mix, there are millions and millions of people who are using Linux on daily basis and don’t even realize it.
This is even more true than the article states.
The largest demographic of linux users is certainly "people who own a television".
Almost all modern TVs run linux...
This is even more true than the article states.
The largest demographic of linux users is certainly "people who own a television".
Almost all modern TVs run linux...
i didn't realize this, but it makes sense
probably the number of tvs is much smaller than the number of android phones though; tvs are a luxury good while android phones have become a basic necessity
probably the number of tvs is much smaller than the number of android phones though; tvs are a luxury good while android phones have become a basic necessity
I deeply desire one of these that also has 4G LTE. The idea of a portable linux shell that could also make phone calls by typing in something like "call 773-202-LUNA" just sounds super appealing!
You know you can do that on Android with termux, right?
https://wiki.termux.com/wiki/Termux-telephony-call
https://wiki.termux.com/wiki/Termux-telephony-call
until termux gets banned from android for empowering users too much, anyway
it's already banned from updating in google play
it's already banned from updating in google play
Just use F-Droid or download from GitHub then. The power of Android is that you're not in a walled Google Garden and you are in control and can sideload whatever you want from wherever you want.
that's what i'm doing now, but it's probably only about 3 years away that google disables the api level that termux depends on; then you'll have to install lineageos or something in order to be able to use termux
I wonder if you could build on Jeff Geerling's work: https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2022/using-4g-lte-wireless...
To me it’s to opposite! I’m looking for a device that does not have a baseband on it. I can always hotspot + vpn if I need access to the outside world, but no direct access to the device. Add some encrypted chat software, and got the perfect communication device.
https://store.planetcom.co.uk/products/gemini-pda-wifi-only was an option but sadly they pivoted to devices with baseband only...
There's https://pyra-handheld.com/ but it's semi-existent not-quite-vaporware for about a decade already (props on the staying power of looking to get this project finished, though!)
There's https://pyra-handheld.com/ but it's semi-existent not-quite-vaporware for about a decade already (props on the staying power of looking to get this project finished, though!)
Planet Computers are probably going down the drain soonish after the fairly disastrous crowdfunding for the Astro phone. I know a friend who has a Gemini and he wasn't impressed either. However I am massively biased, as I paid for a Astro which I'm still waiting for several years after the kickstarter finished. To be fair, they have had pretty major issues with the ODM, but still we've only just found that out recently.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/astro-slide-5g-transforme...
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/astro-slide-5g-transforme...
Gemini also the disadvantage of horribly out of date software. Encrypted chat software is not a good combination with Android 8.1 missing years of security patches.
I make a VoIP/WiFi phone that excludes any sort of cellular radio because that's what I want as well:
https://wiphone.io
https://wiphone.io
One project I think about a lot but will probably never do is build a DIY smart phone, writing all the UI and features myself.
There's people on youtube that have done this. They're basically off the shelf parts and a raspi glued together in an awkward brick of wires and electronics.
I'm interested in learning how to get the hardware all working together, but also making wacky UI that deviate from normal smart phones.
Too bad I'm lazy!
There's people on youtube that have done this. They're basically off the shelf parts and a raspi glued together in an awkward brick of wires and electronics.
I'm interested in learning how to get the hardware all working together, but also making wacky UI that deviate from normal smart phones.
Too bad I'm lazy!
Ha I actually had the same thoughts about building an eReader with an eink display and everything. I actually put it together and wrote it with Python for epubs and everything. Then I realized I suck at UI stuff so it’s just sitting at like 65% complete… which is better than my average project actually!
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Hmmm. I posted this a day ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37045886), and I’m surprised to see it again.
Anyway, the reason I found it interesting is that it uses a repurposed BlackBerry keyboard, which I’m sure will have great effect. Most modern mini-handhelds have dismal input methods.
Anyway, the reason I found it interesting is that it uses a repurposed BlackBerry keyboard, which I’m sure will have great effect. Most modern mini-handhelds have dismal input methods.
yeah, the blackberry keyboards were the best handheld keyboards i ever used. though this gpd micropc's keyboard is a little better i hesitate to describe it as 'handheld'
This device comes in at ~$100. You can get an Android phone cheaper than that with a much better screen, with a touch screen instead of physical keyboard, a camera, a microphone, cell modem, a bigger battery, a stronger processor, more RAM, and much more.
I got a few second hand, vintage android and windows mobile devices with those pop out keyboards and getting used to the physical keyboard was more difficult than I remember. For instance everytime I pushed the keyboard with my thumb the device moved ever so slightly. It was difficult to press the keyboard and not slightly shift the screen
Reminds me about Ben Nanonote by some Qi-hardware which had the terrible limitation of absence of USB host though the form factor was appealing
Still waiting for the two I've ordered, not yet progress on shipping :-(
When the device was announced some naysayer here on HN said, hey, that display is lame and the raspberry pi is a bad choice for battery applications, mcus with better options for deep sleep could make this a device with a battery life measured in days, not hours. And despite calling them a naysayer I’d say they are completely right.
I don’t regret buying it anyway, though.