Dutch e-bike maker VanMoof goes bankrupt, leaving riders stranded(npr.org)
npr.org
Dutch e-bike maker VanMoof goes bankrupt, leaving riders stranded
https://www.npr.org/2023/08/23/1195201692/vanmoof-ebikes-bankrupt-netherlands
114 comments
Elegant tools indeed. I own a (non-electric) bike that I bought 15 years ago. When I bought it I opted out of all the features, I saw them as 'parts that can break'. It was 300 euros. It gets around 10-20km of cycling everyday. I always leave it outside and lock it with the most simple lock (nobody steals such a simple bike). I carry groceries and my child on it. Twice it got a flat tire which is an easy fix, that is all the maintenance it ever got. It still works perfectly and I see no reason to replace it.
I imagine you're either very fit or live somewhere very flat. Or don't sweat much, or you have the luxury of no commute or that of a shower at work.
1. For the first 3-4 weeks you will get a workout, but after that your body will adapt and you'll be fine. This was my experience after not cycling in January and February (Toronto), and then re-starting in mid-March/April.
2. Sweating will not cause you to stink: if you shower at home before you leave, and your skin is fairly clean, then there will be no/little bacteria to cause smells by the time you arrive at work in the morning.
3. How much you sweat is up to you: if ridden at a leisurely pace (after the above few-week 'shape-up' period), you probably will not sweat. If you want to get in some cardio, then you will sweat more (but still not stink, if you pre-shower). If want a work out, you can also wear 'workout clothes' for your ride and change in a bathroom stall.
2. Sweating will not cause you to stink: if you shower at home before you leave, and your skin is fairly clean, then there will be no/little bacteria to cause smells by the time you arrive at work in the morning.
3. How much you sweat is up to you: if ridden at a leisurely pace (after the above few-week 'shape-up' period), you probably will not sweat. If you want to get in some cardio, then you will sweat more (but still not stink, if you pre-shower). If want a work out, you can also wear 'workout clothes' for your ride and change in a bathroom stall.
If you are in italy in the summer you will sweat even if you are just standing still
Actually you will sweat because you are standing still - while you are moving, the airflow will cool you. But if you have to stop at a traffic light, you will immediately feel the lack of cooling.
Doesn't work unless the air is dry and your clothes are not cotton.
It still works until about 60% humidity, even with cotton clothes.
lmao you would be soaking in 2 minutes, do you exist in our same dimension?
You claim that 60% humidity and cotton clothes you will not be sweaty by the end of a bicycle ride under the sun in the summer?
I have lived on earth for a few years and I have very strong experimental evidence that you are incorrect.
I have lived on earth for a few years and I have very strong experimental evidence that you are incorrect.
I'm in Toronto, Canada, where 35C summers with high humidity are quite common.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humid_continental_climate
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto#Climate
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humid_continental_climate
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto#Climate
Why? I live in a city and also bike around 10km a day to go to work and back home. I'm not really fit and this city isn't flat either, neither do we have showers at work haha. You just get used to it after a while, really.
You must live somewhere where it doesn’t regularly get over 40c
Every single biking thread on HN ends up with the same arguments: well, it doesn't get freezing where you live, well, it doesn't get to 45C where you live, well, you don't have hills where you live.
People bike in any kind of environment and terrain, it's up to you to understand that ultimate convenience is not the bike's proposal, it's a simple, reliable, and fun tool to use to transport oneself when walking would take too long.
I live in a hilly place, with freezing winters (Stockholm), and I bike every single day of the year. I need 2 bikes for that: one for when it's not frozen outside and another that can take me safely on frozen/snowy ground. That's it.
When I lived in Brazil I also used to bike, in 30-40C, on a very hilly city (São Paulo) that was absolutely not made for cycling, we barely had bike lanes at that time in the city, it was still doable when distances were anywhere between 2-15km.
So yes, it's not the ultimate convenience as sitting inside your own personal refrigerated metal box but it's absolutely doable.
People bike in any kind of environment and terrain, it's up to you to understand that ultimate convenience is not the bike's proposal, it's a simple, reliable, and fun tool to use to transport oneself when walking would take too long.
I live in a hilly place, with freezing winters (Stockholm), and I bike every single day of the year. I need 2 bikes for that: one for when it's not frozen outside and another that can take me safely on frozen/snowy ground. That's it.
When I lived in Brazil I also used to bike, in 30-40C, on a very hilly city (São Paulo) that was absolutely not made for cycling, we barely had bike lanes at that time in the city, it was still doable when distances were anywhere between 2-15km.
So yes, it's not the ultimate convenience as sitting inside your own personal refrigerated metal box but it's absolutely doable.
I mentioned this in a sibling comment: I live in Texas. Where I live we had 43 days in a row above 40C this summer. But the heatstroke chance is not even the major risk when biking in Texas. It’s that everyone here drives massive cars that are not at all designed to save bikers lives if they get hit. Many people here drive $80,000 USD trucks or SUV’s at speeds and levels of carelessness that will easily flatten cyclists. Ignoring the fact that we have a culture here that is actively aggressive against cyclists (there are people here that actually target cyclists, seriously, and there is no repercussion for them for running a cyclist over), there is, like Brazil, simply no biking infrastructure here.
So yeah any starry eyed biking idealism dies in Texas.
I also lived in Sweden (Malmö) and it was fantastic for biking. Sweden is extremely spoiled for biking infrastructure, however. In Malmö you get dedicated bike paths that are separated from the road in a raised manner (eg above the curb) and also from pedestrians. The biking infrastructure in Sweden is probably second only to the Netherlands or Denmark in that regard. And the gap between what these countries offer and what something like the USA or Brazil offers is just massive, as you almost certainly already know.
I agree that most weather situations are pretty tolerable for biking. But there are some extreme temperatures (40C, -20C) that are not conducive to biking. As long as where you live doesn’t have that as a decent chunk of a season you’re fine to use it as a commuting tool, all other things considered. The problem is really rather whether getting on the road makes you actually legitimately in a statistically founded fear for your life, as is the case in Texas.
So yeah any starry eyed biking idealism dies in Texas.
I also lived in Sweden (Malmö) and it was fantastic for biking. Sweden is extremely spoiled for biking infrastructure, however. In Malmö you get dedicated bike paths that are separated from the road in a raised manner (eg above the curb) and also from pedestrians. The biking infrastructure in Sweden is probably second only to the Netherlands or Denmark in that regard. And the gap between what these countries offer and what something like the USA or Brazil offers is just massive, as you almost certainly already know.
I agree that most weather situations are pretty tolerable for biking. But there are some extreme temperatures (40C, -20C) that are not conducive to biking. As long as where you live doesn’t have that as a decent chunk of a season you’re fine to use it as a commuting tool, all other things considered. The problem is really rather whether getting on the road makes you actually legitimately in a statistically founded fear for your life, as is the case in Texas.
It's okay if a bicycle does not work for you. It does not make it any less elegant of a tool.
I live in Toronto and we regularly get to 35C with high humidity some summer afternoons: not too much of a problem if ride is <1 hour. Just hydrate (perhaps when you get home).
Or just don't cycle on the hottest days, but only on the 'reasonable' ones.
No one says you have to do so every day.
Or just don't cycle on the hottest days, but only on the 'reasonable' ones.
No one says you have to do so every day.
I live in Texas, where we had 43+ consecutive days of weather over 40C this summer.
I actually don't think the weather is even the limiting factor here in Texas. It's that it's literally unsafe to ride a bike on the vast majority of streets here under fear of serious injury or death.
I actually don't think the weather is even the limiting factor here in Texas. It's that it's literally unsafe to ride a bike on the vast majority of streets here under fear of serious injury or death.
Car go brrrrr fast
After cycling to and from office for a couple of years every single day, some random thoughts:
* I always took a spare t-shirt with me and put it on after arrival no matter how clean and dry I felt. Taking a shower in the morning helped anyway.
* In the autumn, heavy rains were a problem: I bought special trousers and shoes not to get wet but they increased perspiration. Taking a pair of socks with me and changing my shoes and trousers solved the problem (yes I had a separate pair of trousers in my office).
* In the winter, the problem was with ice - local authorities obviously prioritize cars and pedestrians, so I had to drive slowly and avoid dedicated bike lanes.
* Always drive slowly when getting closer to the streets. I saw so many accidents - mainly young people, in professional gear but they seemed to have no imagination. Personally I cross the street only after getting visual contact with the eyes of the driver - when I'm 100% sure they see me, I can cross the street.
* I always took a spare t-shirt with me and put it on after arrival no matter how clean and dry I felt. Taking a shower in the morning helped anyway.
* In the autumn, heavy rains were a problem: I bought special trousers and shoes not to get wet but they increased perspiration. Taking a pair of socks with me and changing my shoes and trousers solved the problem (yes I had a separate pair of trousers in my office).
* In the winter, the problem was with ice - local authorities obviously prioritize cars and pedestrians, so I had to drive slowly and avoid dedicated bike lanes.
* Always drive slowly when getting closer to the streets. I saw so many accidents - mainly young people, in professional gear but they seemed to have no imagination. Personally I cross the street only after getting visual contact with the eyes of the driver - when I'm 100% sure they see me, I can cross the street.
You get fitter after a while and you can just ride slower if you don't want it to be too exhausting or "sweaty"
You haven't met me, then :-D I used to be quite fit and lean and I'd stil sweat at the first sign of physical activity.
On the other hand, if we're both stuck in chilly weather with just shorts, a t-shirt and an unlimited supply of calories, you'll probably be the first one to freeze to death :-p
On the other hand, if we're both stuck in chilly weather with just shorts, a t-shirt and an unlimited supply of calories, you'll probably be the first one to freeze to death :-p
No doubt that is true, but to encourage people to cycle to work it's probably necessary to have a shower in the office - just to eliminate that as a source of anxiety.
I just started commuting by bike 11km each direction two weeks ago. I was not sure if how it was going to be before starting, but it has worked out really well so far!
I cycle in exercise clothes just not to get my clothes dirty, but I dont really need to shower when getting into work (and i get like super sweaty when i work out).
I try to adjust my pace in order to not get to warm, but it still goes way faster than the alternatives. I ride straight past the car traffic which is stuck in traffic jam every morning, and the buses are stuck there as well.
It's also an amazing way to start the day!
I cycle in exercise clothes just not to get my clothes dirty, but I dont really need to shower when getting into work (and i get like super sweaty when i work out).
I try to adjust my pace in order to not get to warm, but it still goes way faster than the alternatives. I ride straight past the car traffic which is stuck in traffic jam every morning, and the buses are stuck there as well.
It's also an amazing way to start the day!
I also bike to work and meet friends every day, and it’s basically no effort. And you don’t sweat much more than walking, just ride more slowly if it’s hot out. Though I do live in a city in the Netherlands that has put some effort into making it easy.
Growing up in the US, moving here has really opened my eyes. I used to think the same as you, but it is truly easy to bike everywhere when the city you live in has invested in proper infrastructure. (Note that this infrastructure is cheap as hell too, and it really doesn’t take that much redesigning..)
Growing up in the US, moving here has really opened my eyes. I used to think the same as you, but it is truly easy to bike everywhere when the city you live in has invested in proper infrastructure. (Note that this infrastructure is cheap as hell too, and it really doesn’t take that much redesigning..)
Looking at their nick I guess the author is Dutch or Belgian.
And in both countries, showers are pretty much required by local regulations in office buildings.
And in both countries, showers are pretty much required by local regulations in office buildings.
Don't know about Belgium, but there are no Dutch regulations requiring showers in office buildings[1], unless the work environment is exceptionally warm, dirty or involves dangerous chemical/biological products.
The average (non-electric) city bike speed here is probably around 10-15km/h, which makes a bike commute not any more strenuous than a literal walk (not jog) in the park. Nobody here expects people to shower after a walk. Of course it also helps that the country is very flat, the climate is mild, and cities are compact.
[1] https://www.wolterskluwer.com/nl-be/expert-insights/as-a-cli...
The average (non-electric) city bike speed here is probably around 10-15km/h, which makes a bike commute not any more strenuous than a literal walk (not jog) in the park. Nobody here expects people to shower after a walk. Of course it also helps that the country is very flat, the climate is mild, and cities are compact.
[1] https://www.wolterskluwer.com/nl-be/expert-insights/as-a-cli...
As a Dutch person, this seems wrong. Only one office building I've ever worked at in my life provided showers for employees, it's quite rare to see. And it would be seen as quite unusual for people to shower when they get to work.
It might be a lifestyle thing, but sweating is not really an issue. Like, a lot of people in this country have been biking their way to school and/or work their whole life, they can handle a leisurely pace on mostly flat terrain without sweating. Biking around like that is not exercise to me, it's relaxing.
It might be a lifestyle thing, but sweating is not really an issue. Like, a lot of people in this country have been biking their way to school and/or work their whole life, they can handle a leisurely pace on mostly flat terrain without sweating. Biking around like that is not exercise to me, it's relaxing.
Viewpoint of a Dutch national that has lived in sub-urban UK and in urban France: you're probably not realising how flat and dense the Netherlands are.
I'm not saying bikes are not a valid commuting method outside of NL. Just that in NL they are particularly well adapted
I'm not saying bikes are not a valid commuting method outside of NL. Just that in NL they are particularly well adapted
I've never met anyone that showers after getting to the office.
We normally just don't cycle hard enough to build up to much of a sweat.
However hot summer days are a challenge.
We normally just don't cycle hard enough to build up to much of a sweat.
However hot summer days are a challenge.
I do 10km of cycling a day at a leisurely, sweat-free pace; it keeps me somewhat fit, but certainly not very fit. Admittedly I do benefit from the temperate climate of the UK.
IMHO anyone 5km from the office who's considering commuting by bike should give it a try - you certainly don't need lycra, a $1000 bike or Lance Armstrong levels of fitness.
IMHO anyone 5km from the office who's considering commuting by bike should give it a try - you certainly don't need lycra, a $1000 bike or Lance Armstrong levels of fitness.
5 kilometres is 20 minutes at a slow pace. Any bike will do, although a well maintained bike that fits you makes all the difference.
Good bike infrastructure helps a lot too. 5 kilometres in Berlin is fun. 5 kilometres in Istanbul is not.
Good bike infrastructure helps a lot too. 5 kilometres in Berlin is fun. 5 kilometres in Istanbul is not.
you don't have to be super fit to cycle everywhere: it takes about 2-3 weeks in my experience for your body to get used to a bicycle commute even including a steep hill. just pack a clean shirt and put that on when you get to the office.
Yes, like someone guessed from my nickname I am dutch, and yes it is very flat and have a dedicated cycling infrastructure.
Probably Dutch based on your description ;-)
Quite frankly, this sounds like an argument against physical activity more than anything else. Plenty of people go for morning or lunch time jogs. In my neck of the woods, and at the right time of year, plenty of people go for a morning or lunch time skate. I even see people who go for a morning row.
We should be encouraging people to live healthier lifestyles, rather than discouraging them. That is especially true for those who have sedentary jobs.
We should be encouraging people to live healthier lifestyles, rather than discouraging them. That is especially true for those who have sedentary jobs.
I want the bike to win as the ultimate tool, the commuting tool.
We need to be realistic about how it becomes that.
We need to be realistic about how it becomes that.
I would be happy with an equal among peers. There's nothing wrong with other modes, except that one dominates to the detriment of all others. And by detriment, I mean everything from safety to the design of communities.
Win for me wouldn't mean "destroy all competition", it would be "within cities and towns, be able to safely and efficiently go wherever any competition can go".
Let's not forget the "not too hot" part
> anyone can learn to fix them at home with very few tools
Everytime I read comments like this I feel dumb. I'm fixing my own bikes, but it takes a lot of time and quite a few tools. Just learning how to properly adjust the derailleur took me quite a few hours. Youtube university forgot to mention that Shimano GRX 400 front derailleur has intermediate gears.
Many bike parts are not really standardized. It seems almost impossible to know in advance whether some part fits on my bike, I mostly have to try. Also, manufacturers keep changing how certain things work, and then Youtube university may be misleading because they show a previous generation.
Everytime I read comments like this I feel dumb. I'm fixing my own bikes, but it takes a lot of time and quite a few tools. Just learning how to properly adjust the derailleur took me quite a few hours. Youtube university forgot to mention that Shimano GRX 400 front derailleur has intermediate gears.
Many bike parts are not really standardized. It seems almost impossible to know in advance whether some part fits on my bike, I mostly have to try. Also, manufacturers keep changing how certain things work, and then Youtube university may be misleading because they show a previous generation.
Derailleur gears require more maintenance, and are IMO not worth the effort for city cycling. Get a bike with a hub gear (Shimano Nexus 8, which is more efficient than Nexus 7 or 3). If the terrain is flat enough, you could even opt for single gear. If you get a belt drive (instead of a chain), practically the only remaining maintenance are tires and brake pads.
+1 for hub gears - you just have to unlearn the habit of shifting gears while pedaling, because that can destroy your hub gear. And not lend your bike to anyone who might accidentally do that. Funnily enough, most bike sharing bicycles where I live have hub gears anyway, and many are in a pretty bad condition, I assume because they were used by people unaccustomed to hub gears...
Hub gears are simply amazing. Combined with a belt drive, they require almost no maintenance and they are completely silent. The best part is shifting gears while stopped. It's really useful in the city.
I'm building a gravel bike with drop bars, disc brakes, a steel frame and an Alfine 11 hub gear and a belt drive. I can't wait to ride it.
I'm building a gravel bike with drop bars, disc brakes, a steel frame and an Alfine 11 hub gear and a belt drive. I can't wait to ride it.
+1 on internal hub + belt. Just waiting for electric drive options to get commodified. Though clicking on low/mid end hubs is really grating.
Derailleurs are hard to debug.
The rear derailleur on my cycle wasn't shifting as expected, and so I spent an afternoon following YouTube and adjusting its limit screw and barrel adjuster to no avail.
Finally gave up and took it to a shop, the mechanic took the cable out of the housing, wiped it down, greased and put it back in; the derailleur starts shifting normally.
The rear derailleur on my cycle wasn't shifting as expected, and so I spent an afternoon following YouTube and adjusting its limit screw and barrel adjuster to no avail.
Finally gave up and took it to a shop, the mechanic took the cable out of the housing, wiped it down, greased and put it back in; the derailleur starts shifting normally.
You make a good point often overlooked.
"Easy to repair" doesn't necessarily mean you or I can repair it easy. It might mean someone, preferably a local, independent business, can repair it easy.
"Easy to repair" doesn't necessarily mean you or I can repair it easy. It might mean someone, preferably a local, independent business, can repair it easy.
Depending on your city, there are ~~microworkshops~~ co-ops you can go visit full of troves of different second hand parts. You can rent some time there (~ 6 € for an hour) and they will give you all the tools you need to experiment and play with your own bike
Or they are also known as bicycle co-ops.
Derailleur adjusting is hell. Even my preferred bike shop cannot adjust mine correctly. We've come to an agreement: as long as the front derailleur doesn't change gear and the higher gear on the rear one work, it's okay. No point spending time getting it perfect since it will not stick anyway.
I used to do my own maintenance, but considering how cheap the bike shop is, I prefer to give them my bike to have good service and advices. Note that it's not out of laziness or lack of tools since I repair cars as a hobby, which require much more tooling and time. And also since my bike is my daily vehicle, I'd rather have it serviced by a pro.
I used to do my own maintenance, but considering how cheap the bike shop is, I prefer to give them my bike to have good service and advices. Note that it's not out of laziness or lack of tools since I repair cars as a hobby, which require much more tooling and time. And also since my bike is my daily vehicle, I'd rather have it serviced by a pro.
A computer is one of the most elegant tools out there. You get an insane amount of value for your silicon, and anyone could learn to fix them at home with very few tools. They were incredible machines.
Apple took everything that is right with computers - standardisation, interchangeability of parts, open access - and deliberately ruined it and hid everything behind a VanMoofy design sensibility. We will be happy to see that business model fail.
Apple took everything that is right with computers - standardisation, interchangeability of parts, open access - and deliberately ruined it and hid everything behind a VanMoofy design sensibility. We will be happy to see that business model fail.
I disagree that computers are elegant machines. They're certainly useful and valuable, but to me elegant implies beauty in simplicity, and computers are absolutely not that.
A lot of veterans of the industry are warning that the evolution of that industry is pointing towards the “electrification and car-ification” of bikes. Old bikes indeed remain user-serviceable, but few companies today have an interest in keeping it that way. Even if this company went bankrupt, a lot of companies are not, on the contrary, they seem to have a bright future.
It will truly be a dystopian day when a user can no longer ride a bike they bought because the software no longer allows it.
Parrot drones here are a nice example: users bought Parrot Bebop and Disco drones but as of a few months ago are now locked out of their devices because Parrot no longer supports these devices (in order to push their new Anafi drones).
Thankfully the open-source Ardupilot community has stepped in to take up the slack, but it's not enough. The Bebop in particular comes with a state of the art fish-eye lens camera with selective cropping for "virtual gimbal pivoting" and stereo-cropping for 3D mode. This functionality no longer exists. The camera does not work without the Parrot FreeFlightPro App, which is now dead.
I can similarly imagine a day when the "boost" function of these E-bikes no longer work because the App said no.
Parrot drones here are a nice example: users bought Parrot Bebop and Disco drones but as of a few months ago are now locked out of their devices because Parrot no longer supports these devices (in order to push their new Anafi drones).
Thankfully the open-source Ardupilot community has stepped in to take up the slack, but it's not enough. The Bebop in particular comes with a state of the art fish-eye lens camera with selective cropping for "virtual gimbal pivoting" and stereo-cropping for 3D mode. This functionality no longer exists. The camera does not work without the Parrot FreeFlightPro App, which is now dead.
I can similarly imagine a day when the "boost" function of these E-bikes no longer work because the App said no.
It's a good thing there's so many old bike frames around still.
Having worked/volunteered at multiple bike co-ops, I have never and will never buy a new bike. Often perfectly good if cheapish frames will get scrapped because there's so many donations coming in that can't find buyers.
I ride hard and fast, and I don't get passed even by the MAMILs on their $9k S-works riding my $40 steel Univega SS conversion. You don't get much by trying to shortcut your way to a faster bike with money. It just takes time to git gud.
My own personal budget is never to spend more than $450 on a bike before repairs (which I mostly do myself, so the only remaining expense is (used) parts), and even then, I'm going to make sure it's steel alloy frame with great geometry, disc brakes, and at least 2x8 drivetrain. My craziest expense was a vintage Marin MTB (top of the line in its day) with some blown but nice shocks that was $300, but I had to send in the rear shock for a full rebuild so more like $425.
One of these days I may spring for a sweet, "well-loved" Rivendell frame or something similar. Planning on snapping up some kind of All-City soon since they recently announced they're discontinuing that brand and everyone seems to looove the Space Horse.
If you don't have the time to do all that research, there's quite a few online communities open to "is this a good deal" type posts who can help guide you to find a used bike that will work for your needs and inclinations.
(PS: I'm in the market for a 55-59cm high-perf steel road bike with Italian threaded BB! Octalink BB with Ultegra cranks burning a hole in my parts bin rn.)
Having worked/volunteered at multiple bike co-ops, I have never and will never buy a new bike. Often perfectly good if cheapish frames will get scrapped because there's so many donations coming in that can't find buyers.
I ride hard and fast, and I don't get passed even by the MAMILs on their $9k S-works riding my $40 steel Univega SS conversion. You don't get much by trying to shortcut your way to a faster bike with money. It just takes time to git gud.
My own personal budget is never to spend more than $450 on a bike before repairs (which I mostly do myself, so the only remaining expense is (used) parts), and even then, I'm going to make sure it's steel alloy frame with great geometry, disc brakes, and at least 2x8 drivetrain. My craziest expense was a vintage Marin MTB (top of the line in its day) with some blown but nice shocks that was $300, but I had to send in the rear shock for a full rebuild so more like $425.
One of these days I may spring for a sweet, "well-loved" Rivendell frame or something similar. Planning on snapping up some kind of All-City soon since they recently announced they're discontinuing that brand and everyone seems to looove the Space Horse.
If you don't have the time to do all that research, there's quite a few online communities open to "is this a good deal" type posts who can help guide you to find a used bike that will work for your needs and inclinations.
(PS: I'm in the market for a 55-59cm high-perf steel road bike with Italian threaded BB! Octalink BB with Ultegra cranks burning a hole in my parts bin rn.)
Rivendell is an example of the cautionary voices I was talking about above. Grant Pedersen has already spoken about having to buy some good traditional parts while they are still around, so that he will still have stock for customers of his bikes. Once some things are discontinued, they are never coming back.
Sure, you can find a nice old 1990s frame in an attic. But it probably has rim brakes, and in some countries you can no longer find replacement pads from a local bike shop, only special order, and rim-makers are gradually discontinuing high-quality rim-brake rims. It probably only fits an 8 or 9-speed cassette, and both Shimano and many local bike shops want users to upgrade to 10/12/whatever speed. Product churn alone is forcing the industry in a troubling direction regard of we retro-grouches would like.
Sure, you can find a nice old 1990s frame in an attic. But it probably has rim brakes, and in some countries you can no longer find replacement pads from a local bike shop, only special order, and rim-makers are gradually discontinuing high-quality rim-brake rims. It probably only fits an 8 or 9-speed cassette, and both Shimano and many local bike shops want users to upgrade to 10/12/whatever speed. Product churn alone is forcing the industry in a troubling direction regard of we retro-grouches would like.
I think we're still in the middle of the 1x hype cycle and it's not clear to me it will completely dominate the market in the end. For modern MTBs with clutched rear mechs it makes some sense but especially watching the whole 'gravel' thing happen from atop a Univega Viva Sport running 37s where most of the time they're just on dusty fire roads it doesn't seem worth it when pliant steel frames with good tire clearance still abound. In certain cases it may be necessary to spread the rear triangle or other minor adjustments for 9-speed and up but RJ the Bike Guy has us covered on that. STEEL IS REAL!
I'm surprised to hear that in some countries rim brake pads are getting harder to find. What sorts of countries are those? Disc brakes are pretty fancy all things considered, are you talking about high-COLA hilly places like Norway or Switzerland?
I'm surprised to hear that in some countries rim brake pads are getting harder to find. What sorts of countries are those? Disc brakes are pretty fancy all things considered, are you talking about high-COLA hilly places like Norway or Switzerland?
One example: I was in Santiago, Chile while on a long bike tour. I went to Calle San Diego, a street that was famous for having a couple of dozen bike shops in one area. I was unable to find replacement pads of the sort that slid into e.g. Shimano’s LX or XT rim brakes. Some shops only had replacement pads that came with the whole metal apparatus for e.g. Shimano Deore. But most shops had no replacement pads for adult bikes at all. They showed me those blocky rim-brake pads suitable only for children’s bikes and said “This is all we stock now. Everyone’s riding disc brakes now. You’d have to special-order.” FWIW, I had been told the same thing in northern Chile earlier on that journey.
> Disc brakes are pretty fancy all things considered
This hasn’t been true for a while now. I have noticed that many – if not already most – of the Chinese BSOs at hypermarkets have disc brakes installed.
> Disc brakes are pretty fancy all things considered
This hasn’t been true for a while now. I have noticed that many – if not already most – of the Chinese BSOs at hypermarkets have disc brakes installed.
> it probably has rim brakes, and in some countries you can no longer find replacement pads from a local bike shop, only special order
I find it hard to believe, but if you're in one of these countries, you can just order brake pads by the dozen on AliExpress for a few euros and you're set for the rest of your life.
I find it hard to believe, but if you're in one of these countries, you can just order brake pads by the dozen on AliExpress for a few euros and you're set for the rest of your life.
Agreed on all fronts, and I ride similar to you I think (I used to love outracing the spandex-cladders on the steep hills on my shitty racer). I used to spend £350 on old french bikes (I don't remember the brand), just due to the sheer elastic thrill of the cornering, but parts were far and few between and I usually had to ad-hoc some horrible solution to keep them going.
This was in central London half a decade ago, and one piece of mind that I had when going for these types of bikes: no one wanted to steal them. I had yuppie friends who would fork out 1-2k on a new bike that they were too afraid to scratch to actually ride, and it would be stolen within a few months of its purchase. My bikes? I would leave them carelessly chained to some weak fence confident in the knowledge it would still be there when I came back to it.
There is freedom in cheapness.
This was in central London half a decade ago, and one piece of mind that I had when going for these types of bikes: no one wanted to steal them. I had yuppie friends who would fork out 1-2k on a new bike that they were too afraid to scratch to actually ride, and it would be stolen within a few months of its purchase. My bikes? I would leave them carelessly chained to some weak fence confident in the knowledge it would still be there when I came back to it.
There is freedom in cheapness.
it is undeniably pretty slick to just have everything inside the frame of the bike. But as with phones, to some extent elegance is at odds with repairability. I'd rather have something that lasts a long time.
Meh, there are some bikes where only a few things stick out, and that only for a few cm.
https://www.specialized.com/lu/en/turbo-como-sl
This bike costs less than VanMoof with generally better parts.
Specialized has a few proprietary parts but otherwise it's what VanMoof was dreaming to be :-)
Edit: And don't get me started with what's available in Europe. Gazelle makes 3x the commuter bike for the same money or less, all with standard components of great quality.
https://www.specialized.com/lu/en/turbo-como-sl
This bike costs less than VanMoof with generally better parts.
Specialized has a few proprietary parts but otherwise it's what VanMoof was dreaming to be :-)
Edit: And don't get me started with what's available in Europe. Gazelle makes 3x the commuter bike for the same money or less, all with standard components of great quality.
My Wife has a Giant/Momentum Vida E. It's really great, everythings so simple for an Ebike.
Yamaha engine, legit!
Bosch, Brose, Yamaha, Bafang, Shimano.
Probably the safe bets when looking for a ebike (check for local repair shops to be sure).
Shimano Nexus 7 internal gear hub, super solid.
Yup, looks like a great commuter bike build!
Bosch, Brose, Yamaha, Bafang, Shimano.
Probably the safe bets when looking for a ebike (check for local repair shops to be sure).
Shimano Nexus 7 internal gear hub, super solid.
Yup, looks like a great commuter bike build!
The frame tubes do have open ends. Especially on Van Moof bikes [1]. So I assume the components slide through the ends. Gear components from the bottom. Electronics from the front and back. So I don't see fundamental physical issues? Maybe this style will be more standardized by some companies at some point.
1: https://s.yimg.com/os/creatr-uploaded-images/2020-05/c54c62b...
1: https://s.yimg.com/os/creatr-uploaded-images/2020-05/c54c62b...
The top tube seems to have a small removable part, few inches behind the head. Else, there is not much to access the inside because of the seat post and head ...
The tension forces favor the model because at that point there is only compression, so the tube closes itself.
Ah, true of course! One indeed can't get to the top tube from the front. But from the rear, I assume you will have to remove the seat but then you do get access to the components deep in the top tube.
Even so, I assume it's using specialty parts to meet size constraints, making them harder to replace.
Well, yeah, the article also mentions that VanMoof wanted to be the "Apple of bicycles". "Normal" bicycles are made up of standard parts, kind of like an old-fashioned desktop PC: you can replace most of the components using just some simple tools. Of course they don't look elegant or sleek. VanMoofs are the equivalent of the highly integrated laptops or mobile phones with an iFixIt repairability score of 1/10.
People often buy e-scooters here in France because they cost less than an e-bike, take up less space, interoperate better with the public transit network and can be folded up into a manageable size. You can take them with you in busses, trams and trains. You can put them in a trunk easily too if you're still using a car for some trips.
The disadvantage is the smaller wheels and being lower to the ground, it forces you to keep your hands on the handle all the time as it's not self-balancing like a bicycle, makes going up curbs trickier (you have to take them face-on, you'll tip over approaching them with too steep of an angle), and scraping the ground if you're going down a tight slope/leaving the ramp of a flight of stairs (the platform isn't that much higher than the wheels)
The disadvantage is the smaller wheels and being lower to the ground, it forces you to keep your hands on the handle all the time as it's not self-balancing like a bicycle, makes going up curbs trickier (you have to take them face-on, you'll tip over approaching them with too steep of an angle), and scraping the ground if you're going down a tight slope/leaving the ramp of a flight of stairs (the platform isn't that much higher than the wheels)
for me the biggest disadvantage of e-scooters is the lack of exercise.
The main disadvantage IMO is that if you crash you're going to land flat on your face.
I crashed a few times. You land on your feet. You are so close to ground that there is no time to fall on your face. The scooter goes one side, you jump a little and you go forward at 15cm above the ground and land. The worse is that the back of the scooter will rotate one side and it comes and hits you in the back of your legs.
> I crashed a few times. You land on your feet.
I have one of those 'funny' interview stories where the candidate turned-up with large scrapes all over his face attributed to falling off a scooter which suggests your data-point-of-one is contradicted by my data-point-of-one.
I have one of those 'funny' interview stories where the candidate turned-up with large scrapes all over his face attributed to falling off a scooter which suggests your data-point-of-one is contradicted by my data-point-of-one.
You need to know how to fall. If you know, it is easier to fall correctly from a scooter, than a bike f.e. This was my point.
Most people try to regain control and straiten their legs when in fact you have to abandon it and bend your knees. Less height, less pain.
Most people try to regain control and straiten their legs when in fact you have to abandon it and bend your knees. Less height, less pain.
I've falled out of an e-scooter and landed on my feet so I just kept running, I'd have eaten the ground on a bike
I crashed it a few times, I don't see how you could possibly fall on your face. One was on my side (guess how I got that curb story), the other on my feet (sprained an ankle)
Small injuries happen more often than on a bicycle by a margin
If I get a scratch I get a scratch, I'll trade that for a shorter commute
What I really care about are real injuries. Those are from drivers and they are the same whether you're on a bike or anything else
Small injuries happen more often than on a bicycle by a margin
If I get a scratch I get a scratch, I'll trade that for a shorter commute
What I really care about are real injuries. Those are from drivers and they are the same whether you're on a bike or anything else
which is going to happen quite soon, because of the pathetic wheel diameter.
They also took everything that is wrong with bicycles and other e-bikes and fixed it.
Hopefully now someone comes along and merges the two approaches into an optimal balance.
I have a Vanmoof that I absolutely love and I’ve researched thoroughly but found no acceptable alternatives. So for now I’ll just keep using it and learn how to repair it myself when needed. And then hopefully someone comes out with a good replacement by the time it totally dies.
Hopefully now someone comes along and merges the two approaches into an optimal balance.
I have a Vanmoof that I absolutely love and I’ve researched thoroughly but found no acceptable alternatives. So for now I’ll just keep using it and learn how to repair it myself when needed. And then hopefully someone comes out with a good replacement by the time it totally dies.
What did they fix (I read the article, but I'd like to hear your perspective)
Everyone can learn to plant potatoes, doesn’t mean that supermarkets are pointless
Eh, standardization is overrated. Let me tell you about my new bottom bracket standard I've invented. It and it's wide range of variants will surely make things simpler.
Fairly old news at this stage, but worth pointing out for existing VanMoof owners that this doesn't brick your bike. Your bike can still be unlocked via the app, and via the PIN set when setting up the bike.
Cowboy (VanMoof competitor) have built an app[1] to let you save the encryption key used to unlock the bike, if you're worried about the VanMoof app going down.
The real pain here is all of the annoying brittle and priority parts in the bike. The next time your eshifter dies, that's it.
[1] http://bikey-app.cowboy.com
Cowboy (VanMoof competitor) have built an app[1] to let you save the encryption key used to unlock the bike, if you're worried about the VanMoof app going down.
The real pain here is all of the annoying brittle and priority parts in the bike. The next time your eshifter dies, that's it.
[1] http://bikey-app.cowboy.com
https://support.vanmoof.com/en/support/solutions/articles/20...
https://support.vanmoof.com/en/support/solutions/articles/44...
I think it's worth adding to this the official statement from Vanmoof, as overall I think it does have most of the information that owners would like.
Kind of a shame that the so many Dutch people are getting screwed here, but the repair shop owners/workers from the article describe a very locked-down bike seemingly designed to be a lock-in device, not a useful bike.†
I've been in Rotterdam for a good amount of time (and Amsterdam naturally) and even knowing that everyone in these cities bikes doesn't prepare you for how much the Dutch have integrated biking into their cities. It's very impressive and enviable, and plenty of options for persons who do need other transport options.
From my perspective, trying to do vendor lock-in on a bicycle is a bad idea; transport needs to be treated like a utility, and purposefully making a device that requires a company to exist to give you permission/parts to use this utility while there are dozens if not hundreds of non-locked-down options just seems like an awful business idea, especially when the model has been "open" for almost 200 years and bicycle engineering is already extremely efficient and user friendly without the vendor lock-in. Whether it's locked in by code or by non-open hardware, trying to capture what is basically a utility (transportation) is a dumb.
† I understand that many users liked the bike design, but in my opinion, if repair shops are having to crack open the bike frame or can't use normal bike parts to fix it, it's a bad bike.
https://support.vanmoof.com/en/support/solutions/articles/44...
I think it's worth adding to this the official statement from Vanmoof, as overall I think it does have most of the information that owners would like.
Kind of a shame that the so many Dutch people are getting screwed here, but the repair shop owners/workers from the article describe a very locked-down bike seemingly designed to be a lock-in device, not a useful bike.†
I've been in Rotterdam for a good amount of time (and Amsterdam naturally) and even knowing that everyone in these cities bikes doesn't prepare you for how much the Dutch have integrated biking into their cities. It's very impressive and enviable, and plenty of options for persons who do need other transport options.
From my perspective, trying to do vendor lock-in on a bicycle is a bad idea; transport needs to be treated like a utility, and purposefully making a device that requires a company to exist to give you permission/parts to use this utility while there are dozens if not hundreds of non-locked-down options just seems like an awful business idea, especially when the model has been "open" for almost 200 years and bicycle engineering is already extremely efficient and user friendly without the vendor lock-in. Whether it's locked in by code or by non-open hardware, trying to capture what is basically a utility (transportation) is a dumb.
† I understand that many users liked the bike design, but in my opinion, if repair shops are having to crack open the bike frame or can't use normal bike parts to fix it, it's a bad bike.
Yes, it's absolutely a case of vendor lock-in. While the bankruptcy won't brick your bike, any vendor-specific part (and that seems to be most of the bike) breaking will leave you with a broken bike and no way to fix it.
I'm pretty sure the business plan here was to generate "recurring revenue" by "vertical integration" in the "long tail" or some collection of buzzwords like that but it boils down to making customers depend on you after the sale and forcing them to come back to you for anything they need.
This reminds me of how software is becoming increasingly subscription based and triple-A games have moved to "live services" and "season passes" as a business model. I guess at least Van Moof actually sold you the bike and didn't make you rent it.
I'm pretty sure the business plan here was to generate "recurring revenue" by "vertical integration" in the "long tail" or some collection of buzzwords like that but it boils down to making customers depend on you after the sale and forcing them to come back to you for anything they need.
This reminds me of how software is becoming increasingly subscription based and triple-A games have moved to "live services" and "season passes" as a business model. I guess at least Van Moof actually sold you the bike and didn't make you rent it.
> I guess at least Van Moof actually sold you the bike and didn't make you rent it.
The potential loss for the customers would have been much lower if they had rented the bikes for, say, one month at a time. They might lose some days of paid usage in the worst case (as it now seems to be, they would not have lost anything in that one-month-rent case). But then they could switch to any competitor.
I guess sometimes renting is not tightening the vendor lock-in, compared to buying.
The potential loss for the customers would have been much lower if they had rented the bikes for, say, one month at a time. They might lose some days of paid usage in the worst case (as it now seems to be, they would not have lost anything in that one-month-rent case). But then they could switch to any competitor.
I guess sometimes renting is not tightening the vendor lock-in, compared to buying.
One of the official bike repair partners figured out a way to fix most things without official parts. He seems to be popular:
https://www.deondernemer.nl/innovatie/technologie/vanmoof-eb...
So seems like most Van Moof's can be repaired in the end.
https://www.deondernemer.nl/innovatie/technologie/vanmoof-eb...
So seems like most Van Moof's can be repaired in the end.
As far as I know based on interactions in the owners form on Facebook (although I don't speak Dutch) he can't repair e-shifters, which are the most commonly broken proprietary part on the bikes.
https://www.vanmoof.com/blog/en/ride-the-future-e-shifter
That thing seems a bit delicate/fragile for a bike.
That thing seems a bit delicate/fragile for a bike.
Yeah doesn't look solid in this tear down https://youtu.be/bm3JqpoqUY8?t=136
> Your bike can still be unlocked via the app, and via the PIN set when setting up the bike.
** For now. Also Cowboy's app does not (cannot?) support all models.
** For now. Also Cowboy's app does not (cannot?) support all models.
Pretty wild how badly this business was run. If you walk around Amsterdam there are VanMoofs everywhere and they aren't cheap! I was expecting this to be a Peloton style story where they grew too rapidly and then suddenly a crunch just killed them, but it's wild to hear that instead they've just... run the business incredibly badly to the point where they can somehow make a loss on selling $4000 bikes.
When they were selling them between 3400 - 4000 it was going reasonable well for them & support, as well as customers being happy with them.
However they were selling them at 2000 in the end, they tried to also scale up production to support this. They seem to have failed at that stage in both quality and cutting costs.
However they were selling them at 2000 in the end, they tried to also scale up production to support this. They seem to have failed at that stage in both quality and cutting costs.
Not only that, the quality of parts was also subpar. Considering several years of warranty, that costed them too much. Almost all my friends owning it had to visit the repair shop due to major failures.
$4000 bikes with cheap, no name parts, at that.
I feel for VanMoof owners. Another one for https://twitter.com/internetofshit
Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36769998#36770325
This company had an interesting concept to fight bycicle thievery with "hunters" who steal it back [1].
[1] https://www.vanmoof.com/en-SE/peace-of-mind
This company had an interesting concept to fight bycicle thievery with "hunters" who steal it back [1].
[1] https://www.vanmoof.com/en-SE/peace-of-mind
If you are curious about how this works in practice, check out this series: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLz7AHnQUIUEkXynllHhjiCtA7...
Someone made full english subs for it.
Someone made full english subs for it.
I despise the anti-social alarm of those bikes. At my work, someone has put one on the bike rack, which is a type where you suspend bikes by one wheel.
If you so much as brush that bike, or even shake the bike rack a bit, it will scream loudly and startle you. Do it again and it's an ear-piercing alarm you have to contend with while you store your bike. And it's really hard to do considering how packed the rack is, and how normal it is to move other bikes a bit to store yours.
Other than that, I don't have a strong opinion on those: they seem like overpriced bikes that are expensive to repair, and other commenters seem to agree on that.
If you so much as brush that bike, or even shake the bike rack a bit, it will scream loudly and startle you. Do it again and it's an ear-piercing alarm you have to contend with while you store your bike. And it's really hard to do considering how packed the rack is, and how normal it is to move other bikes a bit to store yours.
Other than that, I don't have a strong opinion on those: they seem like overpriced bikes that are expensive to repair, and other commenters seem to agree on that.
My kid uses an old school, human powered kick scooter to go to school. I offered an electric one but he was concerned with charging and reliability! That's some great engineering insight right there, I was so proud!
Note that the bankruptcy was already a month ago. They're currently looking for a purchaser to make a restart. Last I heard, McLarens electric scooter brand Lavoie was in talks for an acquisition.
With this news, does anyone know if there’s any of these new cycle tech startups that are working together to make some kind of FOSS tech to mitigate having vaporware if the company goes bell up? Glad Cowboy stepped in, but this feels like one of a couple.
I watched someone riding a Van Moof bike get hit by a delivery truck this morning. He was fine, but the bike's front wheel and fork need to be replaced. Shame to think the bike is probably a loss, now that the manufacturer has shuttered.
While I never owned a VanMoof, I read they painted pictures of flat screen TVs on the shipping boxes after months of issues with bikes being damaged by the time they got to customers. Clever!
Okay, well that's annoying. That's going to kill the sharing feature, I assume. My buddy has one and I ride it most and it's really kind of nice in SF.
Can’t you just use a numeric combination lock?
The locking feature built-in locks it at the hub. I feel good that I've made some thief's day worse.
Well written article and a good cautionary tale.
I found some details about their financials:
> They show VanMoof had three major creditors. Lenders led by American venture capitalist TriplePoint lent VanMoof 77.9 million euros. The bike company owed 50.6 million euros to suppliers and other business partners. And it also had 15.3 million euros in tax debts, including 12.1 million euros owed to the Dutch Tax Authority.
https://nltimes.nl/2023/08/23/vanmoof-debts-144-million-euro...
> They show VanMoof had three major creditors. Lenders led by American venture capitalist TriplePoint lent VanMoof 77.9 million euros. The bike company owed 50.6 million euros to suppliers and other business partners. And it also had 15.3 million euros in tax debts, including 12.1 million euros owed to the Dutch Tax Authority.
https://nltimes.nl/2023/08/23/vanmoof-debts-144-million-euro...
Looks like VanMoof went... VanPoof.
I'll show myself out.
I'll show myself out.
VanMoof took everything that is right with bicycles - standardisation, resilience, ease of repair - and deliberately ruined it. I'm happy to see that business model fail.