Do you make over 20k a month?(old.reddit.com)
old.reddit.com
Do you make over 20k a month?
https://old.reddit.com/r/Entrepreneur/comments/173b8jh/do_you_make_over_20k_a_month/
77 comments
I have made around 25k/month (gross) and 0/month (or even negative, if you count having to use savings to live). The reality for me has been that the amount of stress that comes with making 25k is not entirely dissimilar to the amount of stress that comes from making 0, albeit from different causes. I am much happier where I currently am, somewhere in the middle. I make about average for where I live, and that is perfectly fine with me.
Pretty much this. Whilst I've never earned more than 20k a month I've a couple of friends who do. And they're fairly miserable despite the money. Same with my friends who earn far less than me or even nothing. It's just a different kind of miserable.
I much prefer what I do now. A job that is sometimes stressful, that I even outright hate on rare occasions, but that is on average fulfilling and fun and lets me go to bed with a clear conscience. All while I still have enough free time and left over money to actually spend the money I earn on things I enjoy.
Now if someone gave me a choice between earning 20k a month or earning nothing a month, I'd still chose the former. I'd rather struggle with the mental issues and stress that come along with it than living in constant fear how I'd pay for my next meal...
But Ideally I'll have built up enough savings to retire early at some point and live off of the interest generated. Best of both worlds.
I much prefer what I do now. A job that is sometimes stressful, that I even outright hate on rare occasions, but that is on average fulfilling and fun and lets me go to bed with a clear conscience. All while I still have enough free time and left over money to actually spend the money I earn on things I enjoy.
Now if someone gave me a choice between earning 20k a month or earning nothing a month, I'd still chose the former. I'd rather struggle with the mental issues and stress that come along with it than living in constant fear how I'd pay for my next meal...
But Ideally I'll have built up enough savings to retire early at some point and live off of the interest generated. Best of both worlds.
these days people are more happy in getting less at and spend more time at home doing nothing of doing nothing or going out.
I make more than I need and way less than I could. Nothing is more valuable than waking up and doing exactly what I want to do that day. Everyday.
No idea why so many people always aim for more money instead of more freedom
No idea why so many people always aim for more money instead of more freedom
Freedom requires security, which requires money.
But once you have enough, why aim for more?
You never reach 100% freedom and security. You only approach it asymptotically as you gain more money. So maybe for some, their threshold for "enough" is higher than you think. Maybe for someone else, they just haven't figured out what to do with the freedom yet, so they keep going and moving marginally closer to that 100% so they can better enjoy it when they do know what to do with it.
You can't buy time. And a demanding job that'll get you that 20k/month will start to degrade your health at some point, rather sooner than later. And in most of the world even 'only' 1/4 of that will make sure you're living a quality life, esp if you can earn it with part time work while spending extra free time exactly how you want to.
But hey, people finding happiness in owning more than they can spend or use are free to work as much as they possibly can.
But hey, people finding happiness in owning more than they can spend or use are free to work as much as they possibly can.
Where the heck do you live that 13k/month is an average salary for an it expert?
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Median household in the bay is around 130k, not far off
I don't feel bad because of some silly concept like "self-worth." More money means I wouldn't have to feel squeezed when the pharmacy sends me the bill at the end of the month. Money means freedom, and only after some point does it become a penis measuring contest.
Obligatory comment that countries exist where the "pharmacy bill" is either $0 or sufficiently low that it will never cause stress.
For people living in those countries, health costs are no longer an incentive to earn a lot. In the UK in fact, the pharmacy is free for people on low incomes but roughly £120/year for everyone else. The same applies to the dentist.
For people living in those countries, health costs are no longer an incentive to earn a lot. In the UK in fact, the pharmacy is free for people on low incomes but roughly £120/year for everyone else. The same applies to the dentist.
Why is there always someone commenting about survivor’s bias? Should people not even aim for it because many will not make it? Is that the purpose? I find these types of comments super annoying. The crab in a bucket mindset seems strong. Either way 20k a month is peanuts, and definitely doable. We need more stories about how rather than stories of why you cant.
People mention survivorship bias because 20K/mo isn't doable in some situations. 20k/ is 240K/yr. That isn't peanuts in the vast majority of the US. I'm a programmer and I make multiples of whole families in my area and I can't see making 240K/yr without extreme amounts of stress and deciding to dedicate my life to work (which I won't do), for my tradesmen family members, I have no idea how they'd do it without running a business with several employees which everyone can't do. If you live outside of the super high cost of living places in the US, anyone you see making 240K definitely had some luck involved. It's right to call that out so that when people fail they know that it wasn't that they sucked, but that the stars didn't align for them in this situation. The odds are probably better than playing the lotto, but depending on your life situation, the chances might not be much better.
There really is nothing intellectually stimulating in learning that there is misery out there and that you too can fail. A cat can tell you that there's misery out there. What's interesting is knowing how to build things and get out of said misery. If you surround yourself with stories about losers you'll think that there are only losers out there and you'll get stuck. This is a forum about hackers and hacking a way out is far more interesting than constant posting about "survivorship bias". I want to learn stories about how people, small or large, build things that matter - not just plumb APIs and "hack" a new language. Those are cool too but those aren't the only "problems" that need solving. And indeed there are forums dedicated to that but I want to hear is the more "scientific" side of making commercially successful things, and like me there are plenty - but some have been alienated by this boring mindsent.
parent mentioned survivorbias as a precaution for those who think its their destiny to make 20k/month after reading the OP.
> This is a forum about hackers and hacking a way out
yes, and as such you'll run into the folks with opinions on either side of the discussion, how is that not more intellectually stimulating than the alternative?
> This is a forum about hackers and hacking a way out
yes, and as such you'll run into the folks with opinions on either side of the discussion, how is that not more intellectually stimulating than the alternative?
> Why is there always someone commenting about survivor’s bias?
To educate and remind people of survivorship bias, so as to prevent this:
https://xkcd.com/1827/
To educate and remind people of survivorship bias, so as to prevent this:
https://xkcd.com/1827/
These mandatory lectures on survivorship biais are annoying, especially when we’re not talking about Elon Musk levels of insane success.
20k a month is… what make an average senior SWE in the USA?
It’s ridiculous to think you’d have only 1% chance of making it to that level of revenue.
20k a month is… what make an average senior SWE in the USA?
It’s ridiculous to think you’d have only 1% chance of making it to that level of revenue.
Before I read the linked thread I thought this whole post was about salaries. I don’t know about average SWE in the USA, but it’s certainly common in some markets.
You can be rank-and-file in software, law, and medicine and exceed $20k/mo after taxes.
Makes the risk in entrepreneurship not worth it for me.
You can be rank-and-file in software, law, and medicine and exceed $20k/mo after taxes.
Makes the risk in entrepreneurship not worth it for me.
Where do you live that a rank and file would make something like 350K a year? Because that is the minimum required to have 20K a month *after* taxes.
For a SWE? Remotely anywhere, but otherwise major markets. Same with biglaw. Medicine is its own beast.
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> You can be rank-and-file in software, law, and medicine and exceed $20k/mo after taxes.
I mean, you "can" do a lot of things. That doesn't mean it's common. You "can" hit a hole in one, be struck by lightning or win the lottery, after all.
Someone on HN knows someone who's brother's uncle's girlfriend's roommate's cousin makes $750K/yr as a L7 superstar at Google in Silicon Valley, therefore "You can make $750K as a SWE" is technically a true statement. This true statement somehow evolves into "SWEs commonly make $750K, look at levels.fyi" which further evolves into "SWEs on average make $750K." Neither of which are true.
I mean, you "can" do a lot of things. That doesn't mean it's common. You "can" hit a hole in one, be struck by lightning or win the lottery, after all.
Someone on HN knows someone who's brother's uncle's girlfriend's roommate's cousin makes $750K/yr as a L7 superstar at Google in Silicon Valley, therefore "You can make $750K as a SWE" is technically a true statement. This true statement somehow evolves into "SWEs commonly make $750K, look at levels.fyi" which further evolves into "SWEs on average make $750K." Neither of which are true.
the average salary in the US is like 58k. 200k USD makes you the global 1%, even if you're not the US 1%.
plus if I believe levels.fyi, 200k+ is F500 programmers, and mostly those at FAANGs or other high-end orgs. Plenty of folks ain't.
But yeah, 20k/mo. is mid-level legit-org SWE pay.
plus if I believe levels.fyi, 200k+ is F500 programmers, and mostly those at FAANGs or other high-end orgs. Plenty of folks ain't.
But yeah, 20k/mo. is mid-level legit-org SWE pay.
This is a strange thread. It's one thing making 20k/month as an individual, but many of these stories are consulting companies making some amount per month, but with lots of employees. Does that surprise anyone at all?
It’s in the Entrepreneur subreddit so I think the assumption is a lot of these people have employees. Not sure what’s magical about the number 20k though.
I would totally attend every meeting if I was salaried and at 20k.
The counterargument is that a super-important 20k-a-month person may not want to waste their important time on unnecessary meetings. More is lost by wasting that person's time.
From experience, some of those 20k+ a month are usually the culprits for scheduling an outrageous number of meetings. God forbid someone is working on something without "following up" or heaven forbit they couldn't get to establish what to do "moving forward".
The bottom line is that while attending every meeting may sound ideal, it's often not feasible or even necessary for employees at certain experience and salary levels. There can be good reasons for missing meetings that have nothing to do with motivation.
Like attending one of the other meetings that are triple booked in that time slot. I definitely don't make 20k/month.
I've worked on contracts where that is not an unusual amount, my colleagues and I behaved no differently from working on normal pay.
It’s a question about business revenue, not your individual salary.
Can't decide if this is inspiring or depressing.
Are software/tech consultants paid solely for their opinion or do they actually implement things, write code, etc?
I can't imagine getting paid as much as the commentors reported for simply giving advice...
Are software/tech consultants paid solely for their opinion or do they actually implement things, write code, etc?
I can't imagine getting paid as much as the commentors reported for simply giving advice...
Largely, "consultants" in the software/tech are implementing things.
Pure consultants, if they are specialized, can make more than that - and that's because of the value they bring.
Pure consultants, if they are specialized, can make more than that - and that's because of the value they bring.
Just seen your personal website. Out of curiosity, from which avenue (LinkedIn, your site, word of mouth, etc) do you receive the most contracts/engagement?
I'm happy to answer. Its word of mouth and referrals.
You might have to pay him for that secret.
it's reddit. at best they're embellishing the truth, at worst they're just fantasies.
if someone is paying 100k p/m for consulting, they're not just paying for consulting they're paying specifically for you. that's the hard bit.
if someone is paying 100k p/m for consulting, they're not just paying for consulting they're paying specifically for you. that's the hard bit.
Writing the code becomes relatively straightforward once you have decided what code to write. Consultant's opinions helps you go into the right direction and not waste your time on writing the wrong code. Which makes the opinion the force multiplier for the whole team.
there are strategy consultants who give opinions. usually backed by numbers, aka death by powerpoint / excel.
often times they exist to "read your watch to tell you what time it is" and bill you 800/hr for the privilege. but they often act as a lever to move implacable executives, or to serve as a sanity check for C-levels / the board before launching big initiatives.
other consultants write code, and are essentially high-end contractors. part of the value proposition is that they're very qualified -- hence why they cost so much -- and that they have a large org to lean on. the large org means that if the individual contractor dies or quits there is another who can jump in, and they can rope in other resources as needed.
often times they exist to "read your watch to tell you what time it is" and bill you 800/hr for the privilege. but they often act as a lever to move implacable executives, or to serve as a sanity check for C-levels / the board before launching big initiatives.
other consultants write code, and are essentially high-end contractors. part of the value proposition is that they're very qualified -- hence why they cost so much -- and that they have a large org to lean on. the large org means that if the individual contractor dies or quits there is another who can jump in, and they can rope in other resources as needed.
The question is $20k per month in revenue. Not profit.
You could be running a business that is $20k in revenue and $18k in costs, profit is $2k
You could be running a business that is $20k in revenue and $18k in costs, profit is $2k
$2m profit on a $20k business? Nice.
$15k of that could be salaries or your salary.
I worked at a bank. One of the programming consultants was getting 100k per month.
He had figured out how to get some FX trading advantages for the bank. IT staff were furious. I was impressed. If a trader or lawyer can make this why not a programmer?
He had figured out how to get some FX trading advantages for the bank. IT staff were furious. I was impressed. If a trader or lawyer can make this why not a programmer?
Furious that he got that much or furious that they got less?
it seems like these split into at least two groups. The ones that have a sustainable business (e.g., trailer repair), and the ones that this month are making >20k a month but next month who knows (indie board game start up). it leads me to believe that the question itself is not as informative as it may seem upon first inspection.
I guess you could ask something like "How much would a bank be willing to lend you?"
This is also not a good question. I had a friend who is freelancer making very good money but was hard for him to even get credit card comparing to someone who has medium salary but has permanent job.
Another friend had hard time getting mortgage credit even though has enough money already in the bank to buy apartment in cash - reason? He earns in dollars but in his country bank requires earning in local currency to get credit.
Another friend had hard time getting mortgage credit even though has enough money already in the bank to buy apartment in cash - reason? He earns in dollars but in his country bank requires earning in local currency to get credit.
"How much would a bank be willing to lend you?"
Depending on how the economy is doing and how crazy your bank is that could be a truly awful measure.
Depending on how the economy is doing and how crazy your bank is that could be a truly awful measure.
I make one zantillion dollars selling people an audiobook of engine sounds.
Are you this guy? https://www.youtube.com/@angethegreat
Amazing how much value is skimmed off knowledge workers. It always puzzles me why more people don't setup their own shop.
Because the hardest part is finding clients.
I could say good buy to my (comparatively) low guaranteed salary to "setup my own shop", but my current employer wouldn't take me as consultant since we have a rule about size of companies we deal with. So I would have to start looking for new client(s) from scratch without any guarantee I will find even one.
I could say good buy to my (comparatively) low guaranteed salary to "setup my own shop", but my current employer wouldn't take me as consultant since we have a rule about size of companies we deal with. So I would have to start looking for new client(s) from scratch without any guarantee I will find even one.
I think this is it. Surely almost everyone aspires to do it at some point, but finding and winning the right type of customers is very difficult.
And to note, by the time you're well versed enough to set up shot you likely have life obligations that prevent you from living for no income for a few months to kick the tires.
And also there's a big difference between doing and making money. Not everyone knows how to sell themselves. I certainly don't.
And also there's a big difference between doing and making money. Not everyone knows how to sell themselves. I certainly don't.
I have zero ability and interest in managing client out reach and lead generation. As an independent shop, I would make close to $0/mo.
I love my job as it allows me to solve puzzles and get paid for them. It’s worth letting someone else take a cut to bring me the puzzles so I can focus on puzzle solving.
I love my job as it allows me to solve puzzles and get paid for them. It’s worth letting someone else take a cut to bring me the puzzles so I can focus on puzzle solving.
Did we read the same Reddit thread? Most of the respondents making good money didn’t seem to be knowledge workers, but ordinary small business owners.
I don’t envy anyone running a small HVAC installation company or whatever. The work is boring, the paperwork mindnumbing, the hours often grueling. When one of your three employees gets sick or goes on a drinking binge, you’re the one who has to figure it out.
If I had to choose, I’d rather work as a librarian even for 0.1x the salary. But of course we’re very lucky that there are so many interesting and well-paid knowledge jobs today.
I don’t envy anyone running a small HVAC installation company or whatever. The work is boring, the paperwork mindnumbing, the hours often grueling. When one of your three employees gets sick or goes on a drinking binge, you’re the one who has to figure it out.
If I had to choose, I’d rather work as a librarian even for 0.1x the salary. But of course we’re very lucky that there are so many interesting and well-paid knowledge jobs today.
That's right. Large majority of people on here (and especially reddit CS/programming subreddits) are employees and simply comfy in their corporate job.
It's not even that most won't start their own shop (which is perfectly do-able), it's also that they will actively attack even the mere notion of it.
And its usually using "isms" like "its hard to get clients", "its risky", "multiple clients mean multiple bosses" and "90% of businesses fail in the first 5 years" and other nonsense.
Edit: then the economy takes a turn, mass tech layoffs happen and it makes some people think.
It's not even that most won't start their own shop (which is perfectly do-able), it's also that they will actively attack even the mere notion of it.
And its usually using "isms" like "its hard to get clients", "its risky", "multiple clients mean multiple bosses" and "90% of businesses fail in the first 5 years" and other nonsense.
Edit: then the economy takes a turn, mass tech layoffs happen and it makes some people think.
You are getting an awful amount of downvotes for a would be hackers and painters forum. Your statement is true, but crabs would rather you get back in the bucket.
The only way that statement is true is if you believe the entire success of the tech industry is the code.
Nothing else.
Not the other parts of a functioning business - marketing, client relations, public relation, finance, business strategy, etc.
That’s a pretty absurd assumption.
And think of it this way. Google revenue is $1.5M per employee. Profit is 24%.
That’s $360k of profit per employee (yeah I know costs include employee wages, but bear with me).
Seems like ultra-elite-10x coders who make $400k+ are skimming a pretty respectable chunk of the returns, no?
Nothing else.
Not the other parts of a functioning business - marketing, client relations, public relation, finance, business strategy, etc.
That’s a pretty absurd assumption.
And think of it this way. Google revenue is $1.5M per employee. Profit is 24%.
That’s $360k of profit per employee (yeah I know costs include employee wages, but bear with me).
Seems like ultra-elite-10x coders who make $400k+ are skimming a pretty respectable chunk of the returns, no?
Yes, I'm wondering. I thought HN was a startup forum.
If only YC members (or hopefuls) frequented these forums this would be a dead place
You don't have to be a YC member, but I'd go so far as saying HN is startup-hostile nowadays. Remember the indie hacker making $45k a month recently getting torn down for his work?
Too many fixed mindset types around here, thinking that chasing jira tickets is the type of problem solving that matters or that plumbing apis is puzzle solving. Forum might just as well replace hacker with worker and call it worker news. The only types of problems some want solving is how to increase taxes on those that solve actual problems and how to release yet another ai to leech off of other people's hard work. All while being ordered to return to offices like herds to a barn. Nothing hacky about it frankly.
100%. Mostly wagies crunching through JIRA tickets and earning a comfy enough salary with strong opinions on how business works, having never done anything close to it.
Out of curiosity what problems are you solving?
HN is not only not a forum - it is a news aggregator, but also not only about startups
It is mostly about interesting things with emphasis on tech and business
It serves as ad place for jobs in yc startups
It is mostly about interesting things with emphasis on tech and business
It serves as ad place for jobs in yc startups
Most are comfy employees I'd say from the general vibe of the comments.
It's European time currently. So, crabs time.
It's mostly my fellow Germans, being honest.
The HN community hasn't been about startups in a looong time.
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$20k/mo in salary is huge, $20k/mo in revenue is a very small business. This thread seems to happily mix the two
For everybody in that thread, 100 times the number of people exist that haven't done so well or good at all. Don't feel bad if you're not as successful. There's more to life than making 20k+ a month.