Show HN: Perfect Pitch Puzzle – a musical Wordle daily ear training game(perfectpitchpuzzle.com)
perfectpitchpuzzle.com
Show HN: Perfect Pitch Puzzle – a musical Wordle daily ear training game
https://www.perfectpitchpuzzle.com
117 comments
Great work! Had no trouble playing the game, and it's a well thought out concept.
I know you're invested in the 'perfect pitch' framing, since you mention that you have it in the family. Since it seems like your goal is to have this be a useful and accessible educational tool for those breaking into music, I would highly recommend pivoting this to have a strong focus on relative pitch, and specifically _intervals_, instead. Knowing how to distinguish intervals is both more accessible, and also much more useful for actually playing and creating music. As is, this tool clearly deprioritizes intervals with the fixed piano-key input and melodies in a key other than C. This will really only help one get better at this specific game.
If you haven't already, give Earmaster a try and see how they approach it - it's one of the most referenced and well-regarded training apps on the market. Earmaster, and others like it, start with a focus on relative intervals, then expand out from there to enhance instant recognition and memory of relative intervals across a melody - but the focus is almost never on absolute pitch 'across the piano'.
I know you're invested in the 'perfect pitch' framing, since you mention that you have it in the family. Since it seems like your goal is to have this be a useful and accessible educational tool for those breaking into music, I would highly recommend pivoting this to have a strong focus on relative pitch, and specifically _intervals_, instead. Knowing how to distinguish intervals is both more accessible, and also much more useful for actually playing and creating music. As is, this tool clearly deprioritizes intervals with the fixed piano-key input and melodies in a key other than C. This will really only help one get better at this specific game.
If you haven't already, give Earmaster a try and see how they approach it - it's one of the most referenced and well-regarded training apps on the market. Earmaster, and others like it, start with a focus on relative intervals, then expand out from there to enhance instant recognition and memory of relative intervals across a melody - but the focus is almost never on absolute pitch 'across the piano'.
Thank you for the thoughtful comment, @jrajav!
We originally just thought of the game as "musical wordle" since we didn't want to infringe on the "wordle" name itself in case there were copyright issues, and PPP seemed like nice alliteration, which is how we ended up with the current branding. But I've started to realize that people have expectations when they hear it -- i.e. I've heard someone ask if the game was only for musicians who have perfect pitch, and that was not my intention at all!
Re: intervals -- right now in "easy" mode, we give users the first note, which gives them a start at identifying intervals. But I'm starting to wonder if maybe a given first note should be the default "normal" mode, now. And maybe "easy" mode will give more visual cues, maybe? (Just thinking out loud here.)
> melodies in a key other than C Funny story -- it took me forever to add in support for sharps and flats to the game, which is why the first ~50 songs in the database all had melodies whose first six notes had to be in C major. Luckily this is not the case anymore (we're at Day 111 now).
> If you haven't already it would be good to give Earmaster a try and see how they approach it Thank you for the recommendation! I've checked out a few other online ear training games but not Earmaster yet.
We originally just thought of the game as "musical wordle" since we didn't want to infringe on the "wordle" name itself in case there were copyright issues, and PPP seemed like nice alliteration, which is how we ended up with the current branding. But I've started to realize that people have expectations when they hear it -- i.e. I've heard someone ask if the game was only for musicians who have perfect pitch, and that was not my intention at all!
Re: intervals -- right now in "easy" mode, we give users the first note, which gives them a start at identifying intervals. But I'm starting to wonder if maybe a given first note should be the default "normal" mode, now. And maybe "easy" mode will give more visual cues, maybe? (Just thinking out loud here.)
> melodies in a key other than C Funny story -- it took me forever to add in support for sharps and flats to the game, which is why the first ~50 songs in the database all had melodies whose first six notes had to be in C major. Luckily this is not the case anymore (we're at Day 111 now).
> If you haven't already it would be good to give Earmaster a try and see how they approach it Thank you for the recommendation! I've checked out a few other online ear training games but not Earmaster yet.
For relative interval training I also know of [0], which works pretty well. The other music theory tools on that website are pretty cool too!
[0] https://offtonic.com/theory/applets/intervaleartrainer.html (NB on my Firefox I needed to enable auto-play for this to work, even though it doesn’t actually play anything automatically)
[0] https://offtonic.com/theory/applets/intervaleartrainer.html (NB on my Firefox I needed to enable auto-play for this to work, even though it doesn’t actually play anything automatically)
From your comments, I think I understand why the "choose an octave" thing was such a hard choice, but I think what you settled on was quite possibly the least intuitive option for me. Even once I thought I understood how it worked, it kept jumping around on me every time I wanted to try another note. It was frustrating enough that I wouldn't come back to the game over it, because I can't even practice with it until I do get the hang of it with the "one puzzle a day" limitation. And most of the comments support that it wasn't intuitive for the majority of people.
Virtually everyone has at least some relative pitch, enough to know "the next note should be right/left of the last one." Moving the whole octave, and only really showing that with the highlights on a tiny keyboard above is just confusing.
I'm one of those people who virtually never puts my phone in landscape mode, but I would rather unlock landscape mode for one puzzle a day so you could display the full range of applicable keys for the featured section of the song than try it the current way again.
Virtually everyone has at least some relative pitch, enough to know "the next note should be right/left of the last one." Moving the whole octave, and only really showing that with the highlights on a tiny keyboard above is just confusing.
I'm one of those people who virtually never puts my phone in landscape mode, but I would rather unlock landscape mode for one puzzle a day so you could display the full range of applicable keys for the featured section of the song than try it the current way again.
Thanks for your feedback about the octaves!
There is one question that I haven't entirely figured out how to ask but am curious about -- if we let you adjust the octaves, and if you select the correct note but the wrong octave, would you want the game to highlight the note as "green" (correct) when you submit the attempt? Or would you prefer to have to guess the right octave along with the right note before the answer is accepted?
(Unrelated side note: I am a desktop person, and thus surprised that so many people are playing it on their phones, haha. I'll have to check the google analytics for that.)
There is one question that I haven't entirely figured out how to ask but am curious about -- if we let you adjust the octaves, and if you select the correct note but the wrong octave, would you want the game to highlight the note as "green" (correct) when you submit the attempt? Or would you prefer to have to guess the right octave along with the right note before the answer is accepted?
(Unrelated side note: I am a desktop person, and thus surprised that so many people are playing it on their phones, haha. I'll have to check the google analytics for that.)
Bottom line is: if it's the wrong octave it's the wrong note.
Recommendation: add a 4th color for correct note, wrong octave.
Err on the side of just making it wrong.
Another recommendation: make an easy mode in a single octave for practice. Allow progression to more octaves once easy mode is mastered.
Recommendation: add a 4th color for correct note, wrong octave.
Err on the side of just making it wrong.
Another recommendation: make an easy mode in a single octave for practice. Allow progression to more octaves once easy mode is mastered.
> add a 4th color for correct note, wrong octave.
I really like this idea! Maybe the 4th color will be pale green (aka you're close)
> Another recommendation: make an easy mode in a single octave for practice. Allow progression to more octaves once easy mode is mastered.
This is unfortunately hard to do in the regular daily game cadence because I'd have to limit myself to songs that span only one octave within the first 6 notes, but I can definitely see it as an easy mode feature in "practice" mode. I'm also thinking that ironically, fixing the octave makes it easier for users because it limits the choices, so maybe:
1. easy: the octaves switch for you 2. normal, hard: you have free reign to switch octaves, but right_note && wrong_octave === pale green tile
I really like this idea! Maybe the 4th color will be pale green (aka you're close)
> Another recommendation: make an easy mode in a single octave for practice. Allow progression to more octaves once easy mode is mastered.
This is unfortunately hard to do in the regular daily game cadence because I'd have to limit myself to songs that span only one octave within the first 6 notes, but I can definitely see it as an easy mode feature in "practice" mode. I'm also thinking that ironically, fixing the octave makes it easier for users because it limits the choices, so maybe:
1. easy: the octaves switch for you 2. normal, hard: you have free reign to switch octaves, but right_note && wrong_octave === pale green tile
Consider if you can simplify the game so that it's only played on one or two octaves, and the full range is shown at all times. I believe that's the best way forward.
Maybe a simple mode (one octave) and an advanced mode (more octaves..).
Thanks for the nice game! And because there is a keyboard right there to compare with the recording, this is just as much a game of relative pitch as it is perfect pitch. (With that said I don't mind the name, it is a fun one and can be good branding.)
Maybe a simple mode (one octave) and an advanced mode (more octaves..).
Thanks for the nice game! And because there is a keyboard right there to compare with the recording, this is just as much a game of relative pitch as it is perfect pitch. (With that said I don't mind the name, it is a fun one and can be good branding.)
I think your current implementation of choosing the octave for us is good, but it would be nice if it was possible to play the notes without guessing them, and thus causing the octave to change(ie moving to the octave of the next note).
If I understand OP correctly that should help with their issues as well. I don't know what an "e" sounds like, but if I'm allowed to play the tones,I can quite accurately decide if it's the correct note or not.
I didn't try hard mode yet, but I suppose one of the harder difficulties could be that you have to choose octave as well. That'd really make it difficult!
If I understand OP correctly that should help with their issues as well. I don't know what an "e" sounds like, but if I'm allowed to play the tones,I can quite accurately decide if it's the correct note or not.
I didn't try hard mode yet, but I suppose one of the harder difficulties could be that you have to choose octave as well. That'd really make it difficult!
The wrong octave is the wrong note.
I don't think this would really be an issue, since anyone who played the sample and then played their entry would immediately hear that it isn't the same.
I don't think this would really be an issue, since anyone who played the sample and then played their entry would immediately hear that it isn't the same.
Same for me, I can play just using the keyboard not the GUI.
An "impossible" mode could remove the sound played when selecting a note. Only those with perfect pitch would be able to get it though (or someone using another piano / keyboard for reference).
As a slight aside, I have always wondered (and never really found a conclusive answer) whether it's possible to train your absolute pitch perception. I have perfect pitch so I can't really test myself fairly (although it does make this puzzle very easy for me!). I've read on multiple occasions that exposure / training as a child is the best way to get it for life, and being musical as a kid might explain my ability to detect absolute pitch.
As a slight aside, I have always wondered (and never really found a conclusive answer) whether it's possible to train your absolute pitch perception. I have perfect pitch so I can't really test myself fairly (although it does make this puzzle very easy for me!). I've read on multiple occasions that exposure / training as a child is the best way to get it for life, and being musical as a kid might explain my ability to detect absolute pitch.
It is technically possible to acquire as an adult, but challenging: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18227794, also https://news.uchicago.edu/story/acquiring-perfect-pitch-may-...
I've always had great relative pitch but not "perfect pitch"; hearing a note out of the blue without any known context and being able to name it was always a struggle for me, but I did manage to do it first try on this quiz. Different timbres make it easier or harder in my experience. I'm also pretty sure the only reason I can do it now is because with age I got some hearing loss that's not evenly distributed across frequencies so now the difference between different notes is more pronounced.
It's possible but for anyone who would actually care to acquire it (i.e. musicians), relative pitch is just as useful for any task that matters and much easier to acquire. Most acquire it by accident. And arguably, perfect pitch isn't desirable anyway, since standard 12-tone equal temperament is not the "perfect" form of music by any measure. The tuning basis of 440hz is completely arbitrary, and there are plenty of examples of the tuning in any genre being changed (usually to a higher pitch) for excitements' sake. Plus, mathematically any form of dynamic just intonation is superior to fixed 12-tone equal temperament. Relative pitch remains useful in these contexts, while absolute pitch does not.
> relative pitch is just as useful for any task
relative pitch is not just useful, it is absolutely mandatory to do any music at all. Absolute pitch on the other hand is just a convenience.
relative pitch is not just useful, it is absolutely mandatory to do any music at all. Absolute pitch on the other hand is just a convenience.
There's plenty of percussion instruments where pitch isn't a concern at all.
But enough where it does matter that a percussionist will probably have to consider pitch often enough.
I remember reading a paper ages ago that claimed perfect pitch rates were higher in populations whose 1st language was tonal - if true that's support that it is to some degree evidence of learn-ability, but maybe only extremely young (even pre-language).
This is well-established: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch
There's good evidence that adults can learn. Studies show that adults who practice everyday achieve significantly better than random scores on tests of perfect pitch.
Fun game, cool idea.
Being able to backspace and replay my selection makes it too easy. I can just keep changing my first guess until it sounds the same.
Hard mode seems a little too hard.
Can I have a kinda-hard mode? :)
Being able to backspace and replay my selection makes it too easy. I can just keep changing my first guess until it sounds the same.
Hard mode seems a little too hard.
Can I have a kinda-hard mode? :)
Thanks for checking out the game! "Hard" mode actually used to be only 6 tiles, but some folks complained that it was too easy, so it became 8 tiles
I think we'll definitely have to do more brainstorming to figure out the right features for each difficulty level; I think I saw some ask for an even more difficult mode.
I think we'll definitely have to do more brainstorming to figure out the right features for each difficulty level; I think I saw some ask for an even more difficult mode.
Huh. Not trying to diss you but apparently musical ability varies super wildly. I'm not a musician, I don't play anything, but got hard in two tries. In my opinion hard was too easy?!
One a day makes it hard to get better. Why not let us just keep doing them one after the other? E.g. the fretboard game currently on the front page (I prefer the neverending practice mode): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38407780
We originally wanted to stick to the daily simplicity of wordle, but a "practice mode" is on our roadmap! (I agree, more practice would help people improve their auditory skills faster.)
What is the rule for the shifting octave? The first puzzle I got starts with E4 E4 and as soon as I click that on the keyboard (or type EE), the keyboard jumps to octave 3 and I can't enter the next note which should be C4.
Or... is that the game, I should be able to ID the notes irrespective of octave?
Or... is that the game, I should be able to ID the notes irrespective of octave?
The octave is automatically correct for each note. You only have to choose from the notes in the given octave.
Thanks for the question! The octave will shift according to the solution note.
For example, if the solution was:
Bb3 Bb4 Dd5 Db5 C5 Bb4 (the first 6 notes of a "Believer" melody)
... the piano octaves will be [3,4,5,5,4]
In today's puzzle, the first note is in octave 4, and the second note is somewhere in octave 3.
In a VERY early version of the game, we didn't show where the octave positioning was, only 7 white keys, and people got confused because even when they accurately thought that the next note was higher based on the interval, it actually ended up being a "lower" note because it was a lower note on a higher octave scale.
So now we give you the octave positioning.
For example, if the solution was:
Bb3 Bb4 Dd5 Db5 C5 Bb4 (the first 6 notes of a "Believer" melody)
... the piano octaves will be [3,4,5,5,4]
In today's puzzle, the first note is in octave 4, and the second note is somewhere in octave 3.
In a VERY early version of the game, we didn't show where the octave positioning was, only 7 white keys, and people got confused because even when they accurately thought that the next note was higher based on the interval, it actually ended up being a "lower" note because it was a lower note on a higher octave scale.
So now we give you the octave positioning.
Came here to mention this too. It seems to adjust octaves for you automatically, but that's not at all clear... and I really don't see why it's necessary either.
> It seems to adjust octaves for you automatically, but that's not at all clear.
Thanks for mentioning it! I really struggled with this octaves decision, and wrote about it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38410228
However, starting to also think that maybe I should just write a note on the page explaining what it's doing, lol.
Thanks for mentioning it! I really struggled with this octaves decision, and wrote about it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38410228
However, starting to also think that maybe I should just write a note on the page explaining what it's doing, lol.
I got it in one submission by playing the sample, picking a note and removing it if they don't match what I heard. Was that cheating? It's been a few decades since I last played viola and I've honestly forgotten the tone:letter mapping.
Definitely not cheating; that's exactly how you should play the puzzle! :) It's all about listening and comparing, and listening and comparing again. If you're playing in "normal" or "easy" mode feel free to also make use of that button on the right, which will play your attempt in the row so far so you can compare it to the puzzle before you submit your attempt.
My partner (who finds these puzzles more challenging) does this but still often completes the puzzle in more than one guess because they just want to test out how accurate they were on the first try and make use of the grey/yellow tiles to get closer to the answer, haha.
My partner (who finds these puzzles more challenging) does this but still often completes the puzzle in more than one guess because they just want to test out how accurate they were on the first try and make use of the grey/yellow tiles to get closer to the answer, haha.
But then what's the point of the guesses since you can always get it first time? Surely it would make more sense as a puzzle without backspace?
I think the point is that not all people can tell if the 2 melodies are the same (tone deaf?) but I agree it’s too easy that way. Maybe remove the option to replay your own melody before submitting.
Cool but way too easy! There should be a hard mode where there are no pitches generated while choosing notes. Great job so far though!
No pitches at all would render it extremely difficult for those without perfect pitch, but supplying a reference tone or scale (like Earmaster) and highlighting the appropriate key rather than providing each tone on demand would be a good challenge, I think.
> There should be a hard mode where there are no pitches generated while choosing notes.
I challenge you to the "bird_tweet" instrument in "hard" mode, lol. The bird tweet notes are almost indistinguishable it might as well be silent. It's hard even for me!
I challenge you to the "bird_tweet" instrument in "hard" mode, lol. The bird tweet notes are almost indistinguishable it might as well be silent. It's hard even for me!
Nice, I used to play "Melodle" (https://melodle.yesmeno.com/) which seems very similar, but I like that this uses real songs.
I think it would be great to have an option that disables playing the pitch that I select, as for me the pitch removes most of the challenge.
I think it would be great to have an option that disables playing the pitch that I select, as for me the pitch removes most of the challenge.
Nice! I just checked out their game -- yes, very similar.
Would you prefer to play a "super hard" mode with disabled pitch and no backspace (and 8 tiles and only 3 listens), or the option to disable the pitch at any level?
Would you prefer to play a "super hard" mode with disabled pitch and no backspace (and 8 tiles and only 3 listens), or the option to disable the pitch at any level?
Great game! I am not a musician and very far from perfect pitch (I would say I am closer to the tone-death end of the spectrum). I also have no interest in training my ear. Still, I had a lot of fun playing the game.
I had to replay a lot of times the tune and my versions to be able to get it right in three attempts.
One feedback is that I would like to be able to play more times a day. Unlike Wordle, your game has a few interesting variations. In particular, the instrument options. I would like to keep playing with it to explore those options. I imagine other people would like to test the hard mode as well, to see if they can get it right with the replay limitation. But after playing the first time to understand the game, you can’t explore more.
Finally, I personally would like to choose the music genre of the puzzle. I would likely choose classical music, so it would also add some discoverability aspect on a music genre that I enjoy.
Anyway, congrats on the well done game!
I had to replay a lot of times the tune and my versions to be able to get it right in three attempts.
One feedback is that I would like to be able to play more times a day. Unlike Wordle, your game has a few interesting variations. In particular, the instrument options. I would like to keep playing with it to explore those options. I imagine other people would like to test the hard mode as well, to see if they can get it right with the replay limitation. But after playing the first time to understand the game, you can’t explore more.
Finally, I personally would like to choose the music genre of the puzzle. I would likely choose classical music, so it would also add some discoverability aspect on a music genre that I enjoy.
Anyway, congrats on the well done game!
Thanks for your note!
> One feedback is that I would like to be able to play more times a day.
We will consider making the previous days' songs available to play.
> Finally, I personally would like to choose the music genre of the puzzle.
Nice idea! :) Maybe once we have more songs (right now there only 125) and user accounts we can support genre selection.
Thanks again for playing!
> One feedback is that I would like to be able to play more times a day.
We will consider making the previous days' songs available to play.
> Finally, I personally would like to choose the music genre of the puzzle.
Nice idea! :) Maybe once we have more songs (right now there only 125) and user accounts we can support genre selection.
Thanks again for playing!
No sound on FF mobile on Android :(
Nice work! I was initially confused how to enter the notes, as I didn’t realize I needed to scroll down to see the keyboard (on mobile). I kept tapping the white squares but it did nothing.
I also wish there was a way to play more than one. Maybe allow me to do the previous days?
I also wish there was a way to play more than one. Maybe allow me to do the previous days?
> I didn’t realize I needed to scroll down to see the keyboard (on mobile)
Oof... we'll have to make sure the piano keyboard is more visible earlier in mobile mode :sweat-smile: I'm glad it worked for you in mobile, though! I've gotten mixed feedback about the notes sometimes not playing in mobile.
> I also wish there was a way to play more than one. Maybe allow me to do the previous days?
That's a great idea! We were originally thinking we needed to add support for user accounts to support this, but actually, it shouldn't be hard to allow people to toggle back to previous days as is. Thanks for the feedback!
Oof... we'll have to make sure the piano keyboard is more visible earlier in mobile mode :sweat-smile: I'm glad it worked for you in mobile, though! I've gotten mixed feedback about the notes sometimes not playing in mobile.
> I also wish there was a way to play more than one. Maybe allow me to do the previous days?
That's a great idea! We were originally thinking we needed to add support for user accounts to support this, but actually, it shouldn't be hard to allow people to toggle back to previous days as is. Thanks for the feedback!
On mobile, did you find a way to "backspace"?
On mobile, the backspace on the piano keyboard should work!
It does! (Was that always there? Apologies ;-)
This is such a clean, direct way to practice associating pitches with notes. I'm enjoying playing with it and looking forward to learning more about it.
I have no idea about notes or anything piano related. I remember trying some other online game about testing if you are pitch perfect and I was a total failure because I have no idea what any of this is.
But I was still able to get it right in the first row by running the sample lots of times, hitting a key and listening if my combination matches the original music. My point is that I don't think this is for checking pitch perfection if it can be done this way be someone who don't understand a thing about music.
But I was still able to get it right in the first row by running the sample lots of times, hitting a key and listening if my combination matches the original music. My point is that I don't think this is for checking pitch perfection if it can be done this way be someone who don't understand a thing about music.
I'm using it wrong, but I love it. I've been working on ear training/interval training so I play the melody a couple times, then play it on my piano, then play the game. I don't want to tell "it's perfect, now change everything" but a practice mode would be helpful for that use case.
Maybe I have perfect pitch or just a good ear, but referencing from the keyboard to the puzzle is pretty simple? Or is playing the keyboard as referential to the puzzle kind of cheating? Should there be a lock in or blind keyboard sound?
It’s a fun idea! Sadly, I found it to be trivial with relative pitch.
Could I suggest adding some extra challenges? Maybe define notes in terms of intervals to the root. Or maybe removing the sample tune and give us more guesses? I don’t even know if that would work TBH, I’m just spitballing.
Could I suggest adding some extra challenges? Maybe define notes in terms of intervals to the root. Or maybe removing the sample tune and give us more guesses? I don’t even know if that would work TBH, I’m just spitballing.
That was fun, especially as it convinced me that my pitch isn't that bad after all. I have a suggestion for an option where to choose a different instrument for the melody and the other to play back your guesses. That would help practice your pitch without focusing on the timbre.
I've been playing around in test mode and I noticed that sometimes the first note or two don't play properly when I click 'play the tune' for the first time. Frustrating in hard mode with limited plays!
That may well be because the browser wants you to click the page before it allows the sound library to produce output.
Suggested fix: play a very short but silent sound before the actual game.
Suggested fix: play a very short but silent sound before the actual game.
Maybe make the keyboard contiguous like a piano — this should "just work" on a desktop — it can go below the grid even. On a phone, scroll the keyboard on the x-axis and make it full width of the screen.
Just my two cents
Just my two cents
Also, leave the keys that have been used colored like in the original wordle game so there is some visual reference of what was previously used/correct/incorrect/misplaced etc
> On a phone, scroll the keyboard on the x-axis and make it full width of the screen.
Thanks for the feedback!
> leave the keys that have been used colored like in the original wordle game so there is some visual reference of what was previously used/correct/incorrect/misplaced
Oh, this is a good feature call. I'll need to look up how the original wordle deals with multiple of the same letters in the same solution -- e.g. if the puzzle is EEFGGF (the first 6 notes of Hallelujah) and you entered EFEGGE, should "E" display as yellow or green? (On second thought, probably yellow.)
Thanks for the feedback!
> leave the keys that have been used colored like in the original wordle game so there is some visual reference of what was previously used/correct/incorrect/misplaced
Oh, this is a good feature call. I'll need to look up how the original wordle deals with multiple of the same letters in the same solution -- e.g. if the puzzle is EEFGGF (the first 6 notes of Hallelujah) and you entered EFEGGE, should "E" display as yellow or green? (On second thought, probably yellow.)
Once I've forgotten which colors mean what, I can't figure out how to see the help again. And the grey and green are hard for me to distinguish. Besides that, I can use this (big time).
Thanks for playing! If you click the "info" icon on the header of the page, you'll get the info box again! We used the same green/yellow/grey colors as the original Wordle game, but didn't realize they might be hard to distinguish for some people.
Have perfect pitch so this is super easy. Maybe the ultra ultra hard mode should be no sounds on tap, only one go for each try (no submit button or delete), song only plays on failure of each try.
I understand that what you described is the actual meaning of perfect pitch, isn't it?
I had a roommate in college who had perfect pitch. He could not only name the note that the table fan was producing, but could also accurately describe how many cents off-tune the fan was.
I know there's limitations, but I'd really prefer if it used real music. Plain MIDI makes it feel so sterile and also makes it much easier.
How can I choose the blue range on top? It seems on multiple presses of the same key different ranges are chosen, but it is really not clear what is going on there.
I love this!! But you could you please let us manually scroll the keyboard (or just reveal the entire thing), rather than move it around based based on the try position?
Thank you for checking out the game and for the feedback! :)
> please let us manually scroll the keyboard
Letting people change octaves instead of letting the game pick the right octave for each note was something I really struggled with, because I think it would make the game a lot harder.
For example, if the right note was "C5" and the user picked "C4", they would hear "C4" when they played the note on the keyboard to input it, but if they clicked the button on the right side to listen back on their guess, should they hear the note in the correct "C5" pitch, or the wrong "C4" pitch?
If we accepted the entry even though it was in the wrong octave, it might be a little confusing since the playback would be different from what they heard when they input the note.
However, if we did not accept the entry because it was the wrong octave, we'd have to refactor to adjust the tiles to show the full octave number (like "C4" or "C5" instead of "C" or "Bb4" and "Bb5" instead of "Bb")... and maybe this would be a good candidate for a harder mode than the current "hard" mode.
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Letting users scroll the keyboard to change octaves is something I definitely want to put into the future "practice" mode, though! Since the feedback will be quicker, it will be easier to tell a user immediately if they chose the right note but the wrong octave.
> please let us manually scroll the keyboard
Letting people change octaves instead of letting the game pick the right octave for each note was something I really struggled with, because I think it would make the game a lot harder.
For example, if the right note was "C5" and the user picked "C4", they would hear "C4" when they played the note on the keyboard to input it, but if they clicked the button on the right side to listen back on their guess, should they hear the note in the correct "C5" pitch, or the wrong "C4" pitch?
If we accepted the entry even though it was in the wrong octave, it might be a little confusing since the playback would be different from what they heard when they input the note.
However, if we did not accept the entry because it was the wrong octave, we'd have to refactor to adjust the tiles to show the full octave number (like "C4" or "C5" instead of "C" or "Bb4" and "Bb5" instead of "Bb")... and maybe this would be a good candidate for a harder mode than the current "hard" mode.
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Letting users scroll the keyboard to change octaves is something I definitely want to put into the future "practice" mode, though! Since the feedback will be quicker, it will be easier to tell a user immediately if they chose the right note but the wrong octave.
Tiles should show the full note like C4#
Otherwise what we see and what we hear don't match (showing CC and playing C4C5 for instance)
Otherwise what we see and what we hear don't match (showing CC and playing C4C5 for instance)
That's lovely. Question: what is your take on that perfect pitch can not be learned by adults? Relative is relatively (hah!) easy, but absolute is very hard.
it can't. it's already settled science
That's what I thought, hence the question given the text above. Not promising something isn't quite the same as saying it is impossible if you don't have it yet, also the 'already' is a bit suggestive.
I disagree it's "settled science". There's mild evidence depakote (valproate) re-opens the critical period and allows improved pitch learning. Personally I like to avoid betting against neuroplasticity. Historically that pans out to be a bad bet again and again.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3848041/
Drugs may not even be necessary.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18227794
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/355933v1
Anecdata: https://www.reddit.com/r/perfectpitchgang/comments/or0sye/ad...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3848041/
Drugs may not even be necessary.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18227794
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/355933v1
Anecdata: https://www.reddit.com/r/perfectpitchgang/comments/or0sye/ad...
Very interesting. I can fairly reliably whistle a middle-c but I find it hard to take it from there (other than just the scale in the key of 'C') and picking out absolute pitches by ear is not something that I think I can do reliably. But I did get that tune right on the first try (probably just luck).
I've been doing a ton of relative pitch ear training in the last couple of months and I'm slowly getting better at it but this is very hard work once you get past say P5 and harmonic I find much, much harder than melodic.
edit: nice app from that last link: https://www.musictheory.net/exercises/ear-note
I've been doing a ton of relative pitch ear training in the last couple of months and I'm slowly getting better at it but this is very hard work once you get past say P5 and harmonic I find much, much harder than melodic.
edit: nice app from that last link: https://www.musictheory.net/exercises/ear-note
Similarly, I can hit a concert A3 (220Hz) pretty reliably from a cold start, +/-50 cents at worse, and that's just as a lifelong music dabbler. But also I was on depakote for a few months almost two decades ago (no intensive musical training in that time, it's kind of ass for mental clarity). I notice I start to lose my reference whenever I try one of those pitch trainer apps. But I've just started messing around with this pitch practice so I'll see how it goes.
Yeah this is not really evidence at all whatsoever
Extreme practice on 12 tones strictly on piano with hundreds of hours leading to legitimately a much lower performance than someone with 0 training and actual perfect pitch
This is just very, very honed relative pitch
Let's not even mention (1) people with perfect pitch can identify those pitches with ANY timbre. It doesn't matter the source of the sound (2) you can hit a mess of notes together and they pick up all of the notes at once
I have been playing piano for years and this exercise on musictheory.net with the piano pitches I can very quickly identify the notes from the pitch but if you play a violin I don't have a clue which note it is.
Extreme practice on 12 tones strictly on piano with hundreds of hours leading to legitimately a much lower performance than someone with 0 training and actual perfect pitch
This is just very, very honed relative pitch
Let's not even mention (1) people with perfect pitch can identify those pitches with ANY timbre. It doesn't matter the source of the sound (2) you can hit a mess of notes together and they pick up all of the notes at once
I have been playing piano for years and this exercise on musictheory.net with the piano pitches I can very quickly identify the notes from the pitch but if you play a violin I don't have a clue which note it is.
“Settled science” must be some sort of oxymoron
language acquisition if it doesn't happen before a certain age does not happen
perfect pitch is a kind of language acquisition
perfect pitch is a kind of language acquisition
Guitar sound didn't- it stayed as piano.
I think the easy mode could be easier - people without perfect pitch need to warm up a bit first.
Thanks, great idea.
Ah -- can you share which browser you're on? I hadn't heard of any bugs with instrument selection so far (until your comment). Thanks!
> I think the easy mode could be easier - people without perfect pitch need to warm up a bit first
Will think about that, thanks! Maybe immediate visual feedback to give you a hint if you're close to the note, or the first two notes are given instead of just the first note? Otherwise I can't think of other ways to make it more easy, but am open to ideas!
> I think the easy mode could be easier - people without perfect pitch need to warm up a bit first
Will think about that, thanks! Maybe immediate visual feedback to give you a hint if you're close to the note, or the first two notes are given instead of just the first note? Otherwise I can't think of other ways to make it more easy, but am open to ideas!
Seems to be more or less impossible to play on my iPhone.
Do you mind sharing which browser + iOS version you're using on your iPhone? And is the issue the design or that the music isn't outputting when you try to play?
I'm on iOS 17.1.1 Safari and the sound doesn't play. Shame, I'd love to try it.
Edit: Ah, it's because the phone was in silent mode. That usually doesn't prevent website sounds playing. Not sure what's different here.
Edit: Ah, it's because the phone was in silent mode. That usually doesn't prevent website sounds playing. Not sure what's different here.
Thanks for the report!
I've noticed that 1) silent mode and 2) not wearing headphones sometimes causes the muting, but I'm still trying to figure out why exactly some iPhones seem to play fine with headphones and why some iPhones require headphones.
I've noticed that 1) silent mode and 2) not wearing headphones sometimes causes the muting, but I'm still trying to figure out why exactly some iPhones seem to play fine with headphones and why some iPhones require headphones.
I am on Brave / ios and it’s silent.
fun idea but "perfect pitch" is a little off the mark imo, as other people have mentioned. i think this sort of exercise would be good for training transcription skills and relative pitch if you weren't able to hear your guesses and the grading factored out global transposition i.e. by always considering the first note correct and applying the offset to the remaining notes
It's a cool game. I didn't like the automatically shifting octave window thing though. An option for a longer piano keyboard?
Thanks for the comment!
You are maybe the fifth person to mention the octaves, haha. At the moment, I'm starting to think something like:
Easy mode: we give you the octave guardrails Normal, hard: you have to select the right octave and the right note; if it's the right note but wrong octave, the tile turns pale green. Also, maybe some new design for the grid so that you can toggle the octave up or down beside the superscript of each tile
You are maybe the fifth person to mention the octaves, haha. At the moment, I'm starting to think something like:
Easy mode: we give you the octave guardrails Normal, hard: you have to select the right octave and the right note; if it's the right note but wrong octave, the tile turns pale green. Also, maybe some new design for the grid so that you can toggle the octave up or down beside the superscript of each tile
Ah i thought it would be for training perfect pitch, but it's solveable with relative pitch (due to being able to hear your guess).
I am regretting the name choice a little, lol. Originally we just called it "musical wordle" but we didn't want to infringe copyright with "wordle", and we liked the alliteration in PPP. And then I spent a few hours making the logo in Canva. That was the main reason! :)
the song referenced in the puzzle is an absolute banger btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIIT9hO1EZE
Indeed! I first heard this on TikTok and couldn't resist putting it into the database of songs.
I feel like you should only be about to play the tune once per guess.
Hard mode gives you three plays at most, which seems fair.
The octaves moving are too easy tho. Just lemme enter C4 instead of any C.
The octaves moving are too easy tho. Just lemme enter C4 instead of any C.
Safari mobile folks: you have to turn off silent mode.
How do I control the octave of the note I select?
Sorry for the confusion here -- you're not the first to ask, but the TLDR is that you can't (right now)!
We do hope to allow octave selection in a future "practice" mode where you're not limited to one puzzle a day, though.
The reason you can't right now is because it gets a little complicated if the user selects the right note but the wrong octave; they'll hear the correct pitch when they play the note, but should we record the wrong octave in the playback, or play the right octave (but potentially cause confusion, because it wasn't exactly the note the user selected?) The easiest thing to do seemed to select the octave for the user, but I'm open to feedback on how to make this less confusing with the maximum fun.
We do hope to allow octave selection in a future "practice" mode where you're not limited to one puzzle a day, though.
The reason you can't right now is because it gets a little complicated if the user selects the right note but the wrong octave; they'll hear the correct pitch when they play the note, but should we record the wrong octave in the playback, or play the right octave (but potentially cause confusion, because it wasn't exactly the note the user selected?) The easiest thing to do seemed to select the octave for the user, but I'm open to feedback on how to make this less confusing with the maximum fun.
> The reason you can't right now is because it gets a little complicated if the user selects the right note but the wrong octave; they'll hear the correct pitch when they play the note, but should we record the wrong octave in the playback, or play the right octave (but potentially cause confusion, because it wasn't exactly the note the user selected?) The easiest thing to do seemed to select the octave for the user, but I'm open to feedback on how to make this less confusing with the maximum fun.
Is there a big downside to storing and displaying the octave along with the note? (Perhaps you could also give the player an easy way to change the octave of a note after inputting the note, to save them from having to backspace -> change octave -> input note again.)
Is there a big downside to storing and displaying the octave along with the note? (Perhaps you could also give the player an easy way to change the octave of a note after inputting the note, to save them from having to backspace -> change octave -> input note again.)
No big downside; it will just take some refactoring of the code, and I originally hesitated to have three letters in an input box since two letters (e.g. an A#) already fills up a lot of space.
> Perhaps you could also give the player an easy way to change the octave of a note after inputting the note
I really like this idea, and will have to think about maybe putting a superscript next to each input tile (or something) that lets you toggle up or down to change the octave. Will have to think about the design!
> Perhaps you could also give the player an easy way to change the octave of a note after inputting the note
I really like this idea, and will have to think about maybe putting a superscript next to each input tile (or something) that lets you toggle up or down to change the octave. Will have to think about the design!
Do you have an archive of old tunes?
I like the idea, but it doesn't work on Firefox Mobile.
Thanks for the bug find! That's one browser I didn't test against :facepalm:
Thanks, after trying on Firefox Mobile, I didn't have any luck getting audio on Chrome Mobile either. Which browsers are tested and expected to work on Android?
Chrome 119.0.6045.163 (Official Build) (64-bit) on Android 14 worked for me, but Firefox Nightly Mobile 122.0a1 didn't. I've built other apps with Tone JS that work fine in Firefox (outside of a few pops as the complexity increases) but I've not looked for error messages.
"Internet", the samsung default browser works for me. Less nice looking, but audio works.
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My brother and I both have perfect pitch, which has been really helpful when we want to cover a song that we like, or improvise in a jazz or blue grass setting. We don’t promise that this game will help you gain perfect pitch, but it is possible to train your ear to more accurately gauge sounds, and our hope is that this game will help with that.
So far we’ve gotten feedback from consistent players that the game has helped non-musicians more easily identify notes based on relative pitches, and helped even musicians improve their ability to remember tunes better, which is good to hear.
The game has evolved with different instruments and difficulty modes (easy, normal, hard), but the essence has remained the same: - One new musical puzzle a day - The octave moves with the melody, so you don’t need to worry about the octave; you just need to guess the pitch
There are a few things we want to improve as well, like: - improved mobile support (especially Android) - a “practice mode” - allow users to play more than one game per day, or multiple variations of notes, with visual feedback on how close they were to guessing the note - making it easier to add new songs to the database (currently it takes 5-10 minutes to code in a new song) any other feedback that we get here or in our Discord. :)
PS. If you already have perfect pitch or want to challenge yourself to the impossible, I'd recommend playing the "bird_tweet" instrument in "hard" mode!