Someone stole a Jasper radio station’s 200-foot tower, owner says(al.com)
al.com
Someone stole a Jasper radio station’s 200-foot tower, owner says
https://www.al.com/news/2024/02/someone-stole-a-jasper-radio-stations-200-foot-tower-owner-says.html
258 comments
The image of another tower used in the article is pretty confusing. This <https://apnews.com/article/radio-station-tower-stolen-am-fm-...> one apparently includes the real one, which I think makes the theft appear more within the realms of possibility.
("the article" referred to by parent is https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/08/alabama-200f.... We merged https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39311852 hither)
One of my earliest memories of something in the newspapers was, as a teenager, finding out a picture in The Guardian was of any entirely different conflict, more than a decade earlier, albeit in the same country.
The media did not really care much about accuracy then, and its even worse now.
The media did not really care much about accuracy then, and its even worse now.
This is more and more a problem, not just with images. Even most of the higher quality (better researched) Youtube channels are fast and loose about using irrelevant stock footage to go along with their narration. Of course the channels with AI voice-over are universally terrible at this. I know a lot of this is content creators have limited access to good visual content. A naval historiographer I follow will show, for instance, ship photos or archival video that is not exactly the ship or event he is describing. He's probably a solo creator and I'm sure constrained by archival access, and frankly time.
One notable exception I have found is this channel https://www.youtube.com/@wildwestfaces The narration is often of first person memoirs of historic events and the images are relevant and sync well with the narration.
One notable exception I have found is this channel https://www.youtube.com/@wildwestfaces The narration is often of first person memoirs of historic events and the images are relevant and sync well with the narration.
>> A naval historiographer I follow will show, for instance, ship photos or archival video that is not exactly the ship or event he is describing.
It isn't about money or resources. Even the biggest budget Hollywood productions regularly pass off incorrect ships in full understanding that most viewers cannot tell a sloop from a brig. Sometimes it is about cost or practicality, but more often it is about which ship comports with audience expectations.
It isn't about money or resources. Even the biggest budget Hollywood productions regularly pass off incorrect ships in full understanding that most viewers cannot tell a sloop from a brig. Sometimes it is about cost or practicality, but more often it is about which ship comports with audience expectations.
Which, in my books, invalidates either as a learning resource.
I mean, as a viewer, if I spot a naval historiographer routinely using wrong footage, then how certain can I be they're not also playing fast and loose with what they're saying? After all, the only piece of clear evidence that I have points towards them not caring.
As for what "comports with audience expectations", maybe this is an extreme position, but to me, intentionally choosing something incorrect but more recognizable is gaslighting at scale - it reinforces the misconception in those already exposed, and introduces it to those new (usually young) to a topic.
I mean, as a viewer, if I spot a naval historiographer routinely using wrong footage, then how certain can I be they're not also playing fast and loose with what they're saying? After all, the only piece of clear evidence that I have points towards them not caring.
As for what "comports with audience expectations", maybe this is an extreme position, but to me, intentionally choosing something incorrect but more recognizable is gaslighting at scale - it reinforces the misconception in those already exposed, and introduces it to those new (usually young) to a topic.
Like in Master and Commander when they swapped out the American ship for a french ship as american audiances dont like seeing american ships as the bad guys.
The real Master and Commander story, https://www.amazon.com/Journal-Cruise-CLASSICS-NAVAL-LITERAT..., is from the American perspective and is way better than the fictional one. To do it justice it would have to be done as a mini-series because it would be too long for a movie.
Drachinifel is pretty darned knowledgeable. I imagine its not that easy to get enough footage of some American WWII destroyer that is NOT a Fletcher class, (as a made up example), to fill out an entire 45 minute narration. And there's a shit ton of work that goes into a video that long for a solo creator.
Now, the abysmal nature of name brand corporate history videos is another matter.
Now, the abysmal nature of name brand corporate history videos is another matter.
acoup typically shows whatever image he can, and then states how close it is to the actual thing he was trying to talk about (and where it deviates) in roughly a single sentence — I’m not sure it’s actually that hard to fit in. In a video format, I’d probably expect it as a text-disclaimer on the image for anyone who cared.
Not doing so is exactly the same as the Hollywood thing; focusing on the narrative rather than the actual teaching, which seems to me psychotic behavior for anything purporting to teach. If you’re misrepresenting the image of the object for narrative convenience, the immediate question is how much of the other material has been butchered for that same convenience? The priorities are out of order.
It’s a violation of viewer trust, and it’s only acceptable in the sense that the viewer often doesn’t know they’ve been tricked… because they were viewing it for the precise reason that they don’t have the knowledge to differentiate between a truth and a lie on that subject
Not doing so is exactly the same as the Hollywood thing; focusing on the narrative rather than the actual teaching, which seems to me psychotic behavior for anything purporting to teach. If you’re misrepresenting the image of the object for narrative convenience, the immediate question is how much of the other material has been butchered for that same convenience? The priorities are out of order.
It’s a violation of viewer trust, and it’s only acceptable in the sense that the viewer often doesn’t know they’ve been tricked… because they were viewing it for the precise reason that they don’t have the knowledge to differentiate between a truth and a lie on that subject
A single example of one inaccuracy many years ago is not evidence for (at least as far as the Guardian is concerned): "The media did not really care much about accuracy then, and its even worse now."
To say that, you would also need to know the actual accuracy rate of media over time. I don't think anyone really knows that without perhaps having done a PhD thesis on the topic.
What's more, good media publishes citations & corrections: https://www.theguardian.com/info/complaints-and-corrections
They will correct things like that when pointed out. On the other hand, honest mistakes of the wrong photo is not that uncommon. In this case, I think the resource was looking for just a stock photo. I did not read the article and immediately think, "Oh yeah, random tower in the middle of nowhere USA, this is for sure a picture of that tower". Perhaps just me..
Regardless, on wrong image, I've certainly noted that a few times - for example reading protest signs that are clearly for a different time/issue than what is being documented (EG: protests in Russia in like 2010s and the news was running images from things that happened 15 & 20 years earlier).
To say that, you would also need to know the actual accuracy rate of media over time. I don't think anyone really knows that without perhaps having done a PhD thesis on the topic.
What's more, good media publishes citations & corrections: https://www.theguardian.com/info/complaints-and-corrections
They will correct things like that when pointed out. On the other hand, honest mistakes of the wrong photo is not that uncommon. In this case, I think the resource was looking for just a stock photo. I did not read the article and immediately think, "Oh yeah, random tower in the middle of nowhere USA, this is for sure a picture of that tower". Perhaps just me..
Regardless, on wrong image, I've certainly noted that a few times - for example reading protest signs that are clearly for a different time/issue than what is being documented (EG: protests in Russia in like 2010s and the news was running images from things that happened 15 & 20 years earlier).
>In this case, I think the resource was looking for just a stock photo.
God forbid they just write their article with no photo at all. Better to use a wrong one apparently.
God forbid they just write their article with no photo at all. Better to use a wrong one apparently.
Articles should not have images that are misleading or confusing, but I do understand why most news articles have something when it comes to imagery. Most news website designs are optimized for at least one image per article, and social media sharing almost requires it if you expect any kind of engagement at all. But it’s not a problem the media world should have to solve at the expense of the reader experience. (Disclosure: I’m a journalist and digital editor who spends way more time than I’d like trying to pick the least harmful stock or file image in the cases where we just don’t have a good image for a story.)
Maybe a practical compromise is to use whatever image you can find but actually explain in the caption that sausage making process in what the image is and why it was chosen. For example, recently on YouTube a video had footage of go carts but they used an F1 analogy and explained that F1 footage is hard to come by and expensive.
> Better to use a wrong one apparently.
I think this is hypercritical. If there is a story about some dolphin, if there is a picture of 'any' dolphin to give context, is that then the "wrong one" and suddenly a ding against the newspapers accuracy worthy of running a correct? Particularly when there is a context line stating "this is just a random dolphin to give you an image of a dolphin."
> Better to use a wrong one apparently.
Humans are very visual creatures - in some ways - yes. Even conceding that the picture is the "wrong" one, which again I think is a hypercritical judgment.
I think this is hypercritical. If there is a story about some dolphin, if there is a picture of 'any' dolphin to give context, is that then the "wrong one" and suddenly a ding against the newspapers accuracy worthy of running a correct? Particularly when there is a context line stating "this is just a random dolphin to give you an image of a dolphin."
> Better to use a wrong one apparently.
Humans are very visual creatures - in some ways - yes. Even conceding that the picture is the "wrong" one, which again I think is a hypercritical judgment.
this captures a meta-observation very well.. a "PhD" worth of knowledge is needed to discern, but publishing a stock photo for a news item is incentivized to be a moment's decision. Compare and contrast to "any idiot can ask hard questions that take days to reply correctly to" .. there is a power asymmetry at work in the public eye. Guideropes and economic assumptions disappearing into a sand-storm of digital information.
basically, not looking good for the future of reliable media
basically, not looking good for the future of reliable media
I think a PhD study would be needed to know accuracy rates of media over time across many outlets before such a generalization can be made that "media accuracy has gotten worse".
How does one even measure accuracy? Number of corrections might indicate it, but who is to say that all of media is forthcoming with corrections. How does one control for digital vs non-digital distributions? Is the rate of accuracy different per medium, and how would that roll-up for the overall organization?
I think the meta-observation still holds. The response to "media organizations are all inaccurate and this has gotten worse!" - is asymmetric compared to the effort to make the statement. Happily hacker news has a culture where statements are assumed to be opinions (unless otherwise presented with a citation or somethign), and opinions are generally not held to be worth much in this discourse.
How does one even measure accuracy? Number of corrections might indicate it, but who is to say that all of media is forthcoming with corrections. How does one control for digital vs non-digital distributions? Is the rate of accuracy different per medium, and how would that roll-up for the overall organization?
I think the meta-observation still holds. The response to "media organizations are all inaccurate and this has gotten worse!" - is asymmetric compared to the effort to make the statement. Happily hacker news has a culture where statements are assumed to be opinions (unless otherwise presented with a citation or somethign), and opinions are generally not held to be worth much in this discourse.
> In this case, I think the resource was looking for just a stock photo. I did not read the article and immediately think, "Oh yeah, random tower in the middle of nowhere USA, this is for sure a picture of that tower". Perhaps just me..
Yeah, I'd assume it's just you. My default assumption for a photo next to a piece of text is that the two are directly related, in particular the photo being the subject of the text.
Okay, so maybe they wanted to have a photo, but there's no way to frame this that makes the journalist or the outlet look good. Intentionally or not, choosing a wrong photo is still screwing with readers' perception of reality.
Yeah, I'd assume it's just you. My default assumption for a photo next to a piece of text is that the two are directly related, in particular the photo being the subject of the text.
Okay, so maybe they wanted to have a photo, but there's no way to frame this that makes the journalist or the outlet look good. Intentionally or not, choosing a wrong photo is still screwing with readers' perception of reality.
I'm skeptical it would be just me given there is some prominent text right below the image that says "not the radio tower".
> Okay, so maybe they wanted to have a photo, but there's no way to frame this that makes the journalist or the outlet look good. Intentionally or not, choosing a wrong photo is still screwing with readers' perception of reality.
Doing a search for how other news websites reported this story, only the CNN used the "correct" image. A few others used different images without even giving context it was a different tower. A few of the other ones are certainly more egregious, not labelled at all..
Other/wrong image:
https://www.fox9.com/news/radio-tower-stolen-wjlx-alabama
https://nypost.com/2024/02/11/news/alabama-radio-station-wjl... (about a minute into the top clip, there is B-roll with generic radio tower images)
https://boingboing.net/2024/02/09/200-foot-radio-tower-stole...
Actual image:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/08/us/stolen-transmitter-radio-t...
No image:
https://www.al.com/news/2024/02/someone-stole-a-jasper-radio...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/02/09/radio-...
> Okay, so maybe they wanted to have a photo, but there's no way to frame this that makes the journalist or the outlet look good. Intentionally or not, choosing a wrong photo is still screwing with readers' perception of reality.
Choosing a "wrong" photo that is CLEARLY labelled, I don't agree with this opinion. I find that hypercritical. Seemingly we simply disagree.
> Okay, so maybe they wanted to have a photo, but there's no way to frame this that makes the journalist or the outlet look good. Intentionally or not, choosing a wrong photo is still screwing with readers' perception of reality.
Doing a search for how other news websites reported this story, only the CNN used the "correct" image. A few others used different images without even giving context it was a different tower. A few of the other ones are certainly more egregious, not labelled at all..
Other/wrong image:
https://www.fox9.com/news/radio-tower-stolen-wjlx-alabama
https://nypost.com/2024/02/11/news/alabama-radio-station-wjl... (about a minute into the top clip, there is B-roll with generic radio tower images)
https://boingboing.net/2024/02/09/200-foot-radio-tower-stole...
Actual image:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/08/us/stolen-transmitter-radio-t...
No image:
https://www.al.com/news/2024/02/someone-stole-a-jasper-radio...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/02/09/radio-...
> Okay, so maybe they wanted to have a photo, but there's no way to frame this that makes the journalist or the outlet look good. Intentionally or not, choosing a wrong photo is still screwing with readers' perception of reality.
Choosing a "wrong" photo that is CLEARLY labelled, I don't agree with this opinion. I find that hypercritical. Seemingly we simply disagree.
The Guardian never publishes a link or an academic reference to the source of scientific articles it pretends to quote.
As you say, it also waits until a reader notices factual mistakes, the other ones just slip through. Last point, you don’t have any backing to conclude that their mistakes are honest, and not the result of intent of bias. Given their bias is always in the same direction, I do not believe for a second that The Guardian isn’t putting its thumb on the scale when they only reproduce the part of scientific studies that goes in their editorial direction, conveniently leaving the rest unsaid.
As you say, it also waits until a reader notices factual mistakes, the other ones just slip through. Last point, you don’t have any backing to conclude that their mistakes are honest, and not the result of intent of bias. Given their bias is always in the same direction, I do not believe for a second that The Guardian isn’t putting its thumb on the scale when they only reproduce the part of scientific studies that goes in their editorial direction, conveniently leaving the rest unsaid.
> The Guardian never publishes a link or an academic reference to the source of scientific articles it pretends to quote.
This is not true. A single counter-example is all that is needed to disprove the assertion "the guardian never.." Counter-example:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/feb/10/asthma-of-th...
In this section, the source article is linked (which is: https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4035232/), that section is:
> When Attwood first identified EoE in the late 1980s, it was vanishingly rare, with estimated rates of less than 10 per 100,000 people. But just like food allergies, which are also mediated by eosinophils, EoE has become increasingly common in all age groups, from young children to the over-70s, for reasons we do not fully understand.
> Estimates from the British Society of Gastroenterology suggest that it now affects approximately 63 in 100,000 people, which Attwood says is sufficient to make it technically “a common disease”.
The same article links other studies..
This is not true. A single counter-example is all that is needed to disprove the assertion "the guardian never.." Counter-example:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/feb/10/asthma-of-th...
In this section, the source article is linked (which is: https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4035232/), that section is:
> When Attwood first identified EoE in the late 1980s, it was vanishingly rare, with estimated rates of less than 10 per 100,000 people. But just like food allergies, which are also mediated by eosinophils, EoE has become increasingly common in all age groups, from young children to the over-70s, for reasons we do not fully understand.
> Estimates from the British Society of Gastroenterology suggest that it now affects approximately 63 in 100,000 people, which Attwood says is sufficient to make it technically “a common disease”.
The same article links other studies..
> As you say, it also waits until a reader notices factual mistakes, the other ones just slip through.
I don't believe I said that. My impression is that they certainly do pro-actively correct mistakes and do not rely on just readership. At the very least, the 'corrections' section is discoverable from their home page. I can't find the corrections part of some other news websites.
Please provide evidence that the Guardian does not do any of their own corrections.
> Last point, you don’t have any backing to conclude that their mistakes are honest, and not the result of intent of bias.
I don't think you have any backing for that either. Though, what backing would anyone need for any kind of slant for "we published a generic picture of a radio tower" (with clear context note on the image) - how is that a slant due to bias?
> I do not believe for a second that The Guardian isn’t putting its thumb on the scale when they only reproduce the part of scientific studies that goes in their editorial direction, conveniently leaving the rest unsaid.
I would ask you please provide backing for this assertion/opinion. (It's going to be difficult to determine whether it's your bias in reading something to think an extraneous assertion is an omission compared to something you think that is related but is either unrelated or incorrect. But, if you have a good resource that has done the systematic research, and relies on reproducible science, that would be an interesting read)
I don't believe I said that. My impression is that they certainly do pro-actively correct mistakes and do not rely on just readership. At the very least, the 'corrections' section is discoverable from their home page. I can't find the corrections part of some other news websites.
Please provide evidence that the Guardian does not do any of their own corrections.
> Last point, you don’t have any backing to conclude that their mistakes are honest, and not the result of intent of bias.
I don't think you have any backing for that either. Though, what backing would anyone need for any kind of slant for "we published a generic picture of a radio tower" (with clear context note on the image) - how is that a slant due to bias?
> I do not believe for a second that The Guardian isn’t putting its thumb on the scale when they only reproduce the part of scientific studies that goes in their editorial direction, conveniently leaving the rest unsaid.
I would ask you please provide backing for this assertion/opinion. (It's going to be difficult to determine whether it's your bias in reading something to think an extraneous assertion is an omission compared to something you think that is related but is either unrelated or incorrect. But, if you have a good resource that has done the systematic research, and relies on reproducible science, that would be an interesting read)
One last response.. I think we should take a step back.
A clearly labelled image of a radio tower for a sensationalist story that a radio tower in Alabama was stolen, that.. that clearly labelled image is evidence of "left wing bias" and the "the guardian... putting its thumb on the scale." I don't think this is the story to choose for that particular hill to die on.
A clearly labelled image of a radio tower for a sensationalist story that a radio tower in Alabama was stolen, that.. that clearly labelled image is evidence of "left wing bias" and the "the guardian... putting its thumb on the scale." I don't think this is the story to choose for that particular hill to die on.
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The one in the article looks like a stripped down Long Lines[0] microwave tower, not anything at all like a radio broadcasting tower.
[0]https://long-lines.com/
[0]https://long-lines.com/
The caption is infuriating:
> "A different radio tower, which has presumably not been stolen"
> "A different radio tower, which has presumably not been stolen"
I think it's a good caption? I also think it's probably not been stolen
Why is that infuriating? It’s accurate, acknowledges the suboptimal photo choice (or availability), and has some humor. As an editor, given this as your only photo choice, what caption would you write?
>As an editor, given this as your only photo choice, what caption would you write?
I would just not include a photo at all.
I would just not include a photo at all.
As a reader, I want to have a sense of scale of the tower.
Of course. The scale is 200 feet, as described in the article. Maybe you want it in football fields?
A picture is worth a thousand words. 200 feet tall and how thick are the bars? How many? Could I do it with a hacksaw or would I need a more intense torch? I want to visualize perpetrating the crime.
It's hard to correctly visualize something when the provided visuals are abhorrently wrong, though, isn't it?
There's a world of difference between an old free-standing Long Lines tower and the straight-and-narrow guyed tower that actually disappeared, just as there is also a world of difference stature between Roseanne Barr and Gwen Stefani.
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but each of those thousand words has negative value when they're simply wrong.
There's a world of difference between an old free-standing Long Lines tower and the straight-and-narrow guyed tower that actually disappeared, just as there is also a world of difference stature between Roseanne Barr and Gwen Stefani.
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but each of those thousand words has negative value when they're simply wrong.
Smoots.
And that photo totally fails to convey the scale. Pictures of the actual radio tower were posted elsewhere here and it's way smaller.
Yes, and what the wrong photo does is fuck with your sense of scale entirely. The included tower is more of an industrial installation; the real tower is more like something a couple drunk metal thieves could salvage in an evening.
Question is moot because I would just do my job to the minimum acceptable standard of competence by sourcing a picture of the actual tower
How and where would you source it from? The tower is gone, there's likely no public domain images of it, no stock images of it, so where do you get a picture of it?
Somebody else here in the comments found it on Google Maps https://maps.app.goo.gl/Y9QMBDPnazGT1cgj9
I feel like that would be part of the bare minimum of your job for a newspaper.
I feel like that would be part of the bare minimum of your job for a newspaper.
[deleted]
See, that'd be my job as a photo editor. To know the answer. That's the job. That's what makes it a real job when actually done right. Any high school age intern can find a picture of a random radio tower.
If you can't meet that standard, don't run a photo, or don't run the story. The world won't come to a standstill because a partisan rag from a provincial backwater didn't run a filler item about a wacky heist halfway across the world.
If you can't meet that standard, don't run a photo, or don't run the story. The world won't come to a standstill because a partisan rag from a provincial backwater didn't run a filler item about a wacky heist halfway across the world.
In other words, you don't know how practical or not it is to find a picture of the tower and your opinion on the subject is worthless.
It doesn't matter how practical it is. What matters is, the only honest course of action is to not include a photo of a wrong tower if it's not practical to find a photo of the right one.
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So...a picture of some random sky? Maybe draw an outline of what the tower would look like if it were there?
'Artist renditions' are used for space news, criminal descriptions, etc. maybe not such a crazy idea here.
Sure, for high profile things. This is the daily news and a mild curiosity which is hardly worth the resources. Show a picture of a similar model tower, annotate it as such, and I have now have a sense of the difficulty in cutting it down.
That's the thing: you don't. The difficulty of cutting it down is what is the major difference between the real tower and the depicted one.
It's mocking. It's like a subtle middle finger to those who suspected something here makes no sense and decided to look more carefully at the photo.
Like others said, I too would choose to not include any photo at all - there's no way to frame inclusion of a wrong photo as something good.
Like others said, I too would choose to not include any photo at all - there's no way to frame inclusion of a wrong photo as something good.
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> The FCC also notified WJLX on Thursday morning that the station would have to go off the air because of the theft. While WJLX still has its FM transmitter and tower, it is not allowed to operate its FM transmitter while the AM station is off the air.
W.T.F.?
I've been following this story, and as a ham operator I am usually a big fan of the FCC. But I don't understand why the loss of the station's AM tower should require their FM transmissions to also be taken down.
I must be missing something here. Can anyone help me understand this?
W.T.F.?
I've been following this story, and as a ham operator I am usually a big fan of the FCC. But I don't understand why the loss of the station's AM tower should require their FM transmissions to also be taken down.
I must be missing something here. Can anyone help me understand this?
Their FM station is a "translator" which listens to their AM station and rebroadcasts it. Translators are a secondary service that must only rebroadcast their primary service.
To add to this with sources:
"Loss of primary station's signal. The translator must be set up to go off the air if the main station's signal is lost." [1] and cites regulations [2][3]
[1] https://www.fcc.gov/media/radio/fm-translators-and-boosters
[2] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-C...
[3] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-C...
"Loss of primary station's signal. The translator must be set up to go off the air if the main station's signal is lost." [1] and cites regulations [2][3]
[1] https://www.fcc.gov/media/radio/fm-translators-and-boosters
[2] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-C...
[3] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-C...
Shame they can't set up 1 1-Watt transmitter on a poll to meet the regulations and then sent a direct feed to to the FM transmitter
Shame they can't just retransmit an internet radio station they receive over satellite.
How would that provide any sort of unique service to the local community? Anyone who wants to hear that dreck can presumably do so.
The main purpose of translators is to give AM radio stations an avenue (at lower cost than an FM only license) to reach listeners on the FM band and have a more consistent signal throughout the day — but they only keep that privilege if they continue maintaining the AM broadcast facilities as the primary signal.
There are issues with FCC public licensing to be certain, but the way a lot of stations deal with translators isn't quite above the board considering many stations attempt to follow the regulations (IMO).
There are issues with FCC public licensing to be certain, but the way a lot of stations deal with translators isn't quite above the board considering many stations attempt to follow the regulations (IMO).
Why would someone design a radio system this way (instead of independent signal to the FM) and what is the risk of running an FM station without rebroadcasting that lead to these rules?
And isn't AM sound quality worse?
Stereo AM signals are (was?) a thing!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AM_stereo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AM_stereo
AM sound quality can be much better than FM. There are AM pirates that show up once in a while that have absolutely beautiful signals.
I suppose for safety reasons, as AM receivers can be easily improvised. (in some kind of critical situation)
> Translators are a secondary service that must only rebroadcast their primary service.
I must be missing something, because this seems an arbitrary rule that has no purpose except to increase the FCC’s licensing revenues by allowing them to charge more for “real” spectrum allocation that for a “translator” allocation.
I must be missing something, because this seems an arbitrary rule that has no purpose except to increase the FCC’s licensing revenues by allowing them to charge more for “real” spectrum allocation that for a “translator” allocation.
The US Code of federal regulations, Congressional records, and media reports from around the time of enactment are on the public record, why not take a look yourself to check if you are ‘missing something’?
I wonder how much "economic" activity goes towards satisfying arbitrary requirements such as these.
Lots of economic activity goes into supporting Chesterfield fences.
"arbitrary" <citation needed>
Eh, there isn't really a modern reason to operate like this. If you ever deal with the FCC you'll find a lot of their rules are fairly dated and weird.
All that said, in terms of economic waste and lost opportunity, this isn't the hill I'd die on.
All that said, in terms of economic waste and lost opportunity, this isn't the hill I'd die on.
Note that the tower doesn't really look like that picture in the nypost - it's a much more portable looking affair: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Y9QMBDPnazGT1cgj9
A few guys with plasma cutters and a winch could have that pieced and loaded on a flatbed in no time.
Almost certainly that tower was of galvanized steel, so if the mystery adbuctors had knowledge of welding or metallurgy (no idea if that was the case) they'd know that plasma cutters would be toxic overkill unless they knew how to paint/paste where they cut. Portable chop saws would do just fine. I witnessed pros take down a radio tower by remote-controlled chop saws cutting the guy wires sequentially.
Old timers will say, incorrectly, "just drink some milk"
On a serious note, a short term exposure like this probably wouldn't be that harmful*, and they seem like risk-takers already so the hazards are factored in for them.
On a serious note, a short term exposure like this probably wouldn't be that harmful*, and they seem like risk-takers already so the hazards are factored in for them.
Off topic, but why are there no remote control chain saws? Seems silly to stand next to an engine driven chain that could fly off at any time.
There are - a sort of tracked vehicle with an arm that can chop down a tree, hold it, and scrape off the small limbs before stacking the log.
Not easily. Those metal tension cables are dangerous to cut and it’s going to have to fall like a tree in some direction.
My tower has 8 guy wires and each is easily released from the ground with hand tools.
Metal thieves are not known for following strict workplace safety protocols.
Sure, but if you’ve ever been around high tension mental cables before you’ll realize you need a huge pair of balls to cut those. It’s not safety protocols, it’s fear that it might cut you in half.
Actually, as I learned from MythBusters, a wire snap will be unable to server a limb or worse. You will still be dead, but your body will be intact.
https://mythresults.com/episode62
https://mythresults.com/episode62
Container ship dock line snaps on the other hand...
Also Navy aircraft carrier arrestor cables. Like:
https://www.nytimes.com/1981/12/04/us/around-the-nation-two-...
https://www.nytimes.com/1981/12/04/us/around-the-nation-two-...
If you cut a wire under tension at the very limit of its range on one end, can it hurt you?
I had the same question. Intuitively, I don’t think so, but that’s based on nothing but simulating it in my head. In reality you might risk the tower collapsing on you if you cut too many.
[deleted]
These towers often have several sets of tension cables at various heights, so you could cut the outermost/tallest set, drop the top-third of the tower, and work your way down. Still dangerous, but it's not always "bring all 500' down at once".
There are YouTube video compilations showing exactly what you've described.
Why even cut the cables? Wouldn't they just back out the tensors at the anchors and do it all under control?
That's how I would do it without remote cutters, a small shaped charge, or thermite. Fall direction will be completely out of control, so it would be worth being close to the tower to reach a safe area.
I don't see how you would have less control by backing off tensioners vs. destructive approach. You don't have to release all guys at once in either case.
Wow.
My feeling is that metal theft is getting out of control. If the news reporting on it is to be trusted, cases are in fact rising. Thieves have probably always hit junkyards and stolen wire, but now there seems to be more and more infrastructure hit as well.
The oddest aspect of this is that scrap steel isn't even worth that much. How many tons could that be? Let's say it's 400 tons, that's maybe $100k. And it seems like extremely high risk, because they're going to be looking for this everywhere now. Why would they not just steal two or three cars, which would never make the news. They must be skilled to pull something like that off in a night.
Edit: Another user linked the street view, apparently the article image wasn't the actual tower. So based on that it's much less metal even.
My feeling is that metal theft is getting out of control. If the news reporting on it is to be trusted, cases are in fact rising. Thieves have probably always hit junkyards and stolen wire, but now there seems to be more and more infrastructure hit as well.
The oddest aspect of this is that scrap steel isn't even worth that much. How many tons could that be? Let's say it's 400 tons, that's maybe $100k. And it seems like extremely high risk, because they're going to be looking for this everywhere now. Why would they not just steal two or three cars, which would never make the news. They must be skilled to pull something like that off in a night.
Edit: Another user linked the street view, apparently the article image wasn't the actual tower. So based on that it's much less metal even.
Criminals don't make sense to you because you're trying to explain their behavior with your own thought process. You're likely much smarter than they are, with a better understanding of risk vs reward and lower impulsivity.
Also you can't explain criminal behavior with purely financial motivations. Car thieves are not making $33k per car. A lot of them don't even sell them, just steal what's inside and use them for a joy ride (ask me how I know). Lots of petty criminals and drug dealers are not making very much money, especially for the level of risk. But compared to a traditional job it's much less restrictive, fun and exciting, lets you hang out with your friends most of the time, and has a lot more social clout with their peers than traditional employment.
IMO, they should be playing games or sports instead. Give people more opportunities to do just what you said (instead of working supposedly boring (at least to them) jobs), instead of hurting people/property to achieve that.
Our local metro area has had a problem with copper thieves for a few years now, cutting open and stealing the wiring from street lights.
People are why we can't have nice things, apparently.
People are why we can't have nice things, apparently.
when the price of copper went through the roof a few years ago the local drug houses in Dallas started accepting it as payment for drugs. They would then sell the metal to scrap yards at a profit. Once that was up and running any copper left unguarded was gone instantly. Air conditioners were gone, wiring in new construction was gone, wiring in rent houses was gone, any copper anywhere was stolen constantly. I remember seeing people pushing shopping carts in Old East Dallas filled with copper cables, pipes, and other stuf.
There was a story probably once a month about someone breaking into a power substation or some other high voltage area to try and steal copper and electrocuting themselves.
There was a story probably once a month about someone breaking into a power substation or some other high voltage area to try and steal copper and electrocuting themselves.
My local scrapyard requires a photo ID before they will pay for anything other than aluminum cans. Doesn't seem like a complicated solution.
that's what started to turn the tide (along with falling prices) the police started cracking down on scrap yards buying obviously stolen property.
Around here most of them require an electrical or plumbing contractor's license to sell that stuff. There's an online system to verify the license, and one of the conditions of the license is purchasing a bond and insurance.
And it's a good thing that fake IDs are illegal so criminals can't circumvent that kind of thing.
Metal thieves who are exchanging wiring for cash for drugs are even more impulsive than other street criminals. Sometimes raising the bar a bit can make a big difference.
In an area around nearby, years ago (in the sticks...) someone went up the power lines through the woods and clipped all the bare grounding wire from miles of poles from about 8 feet up to the ground.
Seems like a lot of work for low money.
Seems like a lot of work for low money.
> People are why we can't have nice things, apparently.
Always has been. With that said, this is incredibly impressive from a logistics perspective. Hire these folks for demolition and salvage work.
Always has been. With that said, this is incredibly impressive from a logistics perspective. Hire these folks for demolition and salvage work.
Or arrest them, convict them, and make them pickup garbage on weekends.
Good luck with that. You can’t even arrest people who break into vehicles in broad daylight.
Good luck with that, someone will have to supervise them. And supervise the supervisors.
Humans will always be the problem, because there is one immutable fact about humans that history has proven too many times to list.
There. Is. Always. An. Asshole.
Always.
There. Is. Always. An. Asshole.
Always.
'People' is a remarkable way to misspell 'poverty'.
Poverty is not itself a reason to commit crime. Some people steal whether they are poor or rich, others don't, whether they are poor or rich.
Around here, it's mostly organized gangs doing the stealing, not random poor people... If that were the case, the city wouldn't have a single light fixture left unscathed.
Around here, it's mostly organized gangs doing the stealing, not random poor people... If that were the case, the city wouldn't have a single light fixture left unscathed.
> Poverty is not itself a reason to commit crime.
Of course not. It would be absurd to assert otherwise. You always get some scofflaws, but I don't see a reason to assume you get more scofflaws in a weak economy than a strong one. More lawbreakers, yes, but breaking laws for economically rational reasons isn't the same as doing so for its own sake.
I would be curious to know where the people who join such groups come from, and what other prospects they might have had such that difficult, dangerous, and illegal work still ends up looking preferable.
Of course not. It would be absurd to assert otherwise. You always get some scofflaws, but I don't see a reason to assume you get more scofflaws in a weak economy than a strong one. More lawbreakers, yes, but breaking laws for economically rational reasons isn't the same as doing so for its own sake.
I would be curious to know where the people who join such groups come from, and what other prospects they might have had such that difficult, dangerous, and illegal work still ends up looking preferable.
Limited experience based on what my friend told me (I grew up in a rural community, so very different dynamics): it starts in schools.
Gangs start recruiting young. It's a fast way to get "friends" who have more than you do- the illusion of power, material wealth, so on.
Furthermore, attempting to do well in school means your fellow students will bully you for "acting white".
If your parents didn't do well in school, they are less likely to pressure you to do well. They might be working long hours to make ends meet, or living on disability or either form of welfare. This will exclude you from many extracurricular activities which require parental support as well.
If you see your parents barely making ends meet, and gangbangers offer you the illusion of more, and everyone around you says you'll never amount to anything by studying or trying to get good grades, it isn't hard to see the allure.
So, for these students at least, poverty is a culture and the trap becomes lifelong once you get a record and can't get a job anywhere that pays better than minimum wage. Rinse and repeat with the next generation.
My friend was fortunate enough to have a father who pressured him to do well in school, and to go on to secondary education. He escaped the trap, but few of the people he grew up with did the same.
Gangs start recruiting young. It's a fast way to get "friends" who have more than you do- the illusion of power, material wealth, so on.
Furthermore, attempting to do well in school means your fellow students will bully you for "acting white".
If your parents didn't do well in school, they are less likely to pressure you to do well. They might be working long hours to make ends meet, or living on disability or either form of welfare. This will exclude you from many extracurricular activities which require parental support as well.
If you see your parents barely making ends meet, and gangbangers offer you the illusion of more, and everyone around you says you'll never amount to anything by studying or trying to get good grades, it isn't hard to see the allure.
So, for these students at least, poverty is a culture and the trap becomes lifelong once you get a record and can't get a job anywhere that pays better than minimum wage. Rinse and repeat with the next generation.
My friend was fortunate enough to have a father who pressured him to do well in school, and to go on to secondary education. He escaped the trap, but few of the people he grew up with did the same.
And if you tell anything of the above on a public forum, you'd be immediately canceled and branded a "racist". It's amazing how the current progressive elite is undermining themselves.
Can you name an example of this happening? Because OP's narrative is very common in a lot of "progressive" places in in the media. It's one of the core ideas of progressivism that poverty is a trap and that people need help from the government to escape it.
I can think of some other less mainstream news sources that would have a problem with that idea.
I can think of some other less mainstream news sources that would have a problem with that idea.
It's probably the part where I mentioned the cultural aspect of my friend's experience, including trying hard in school resulting in being scoffed at or bullied for "acting white".
Also, the "people need the governments help to escape it" was very much not the moral of this particular parable. All it took was a father who gave a damn.
Also, the "people need the governments help to escape it" was very much not the moral of this particular parable. All it took was a father who gave a damn.
> Can you name an example of this happening?
Easy. Ann Hsu, a school board member in SF: https://sfstandard.com/2022/07/19/racially-insensitive-schoo...
Here are her exact words: "Especially in the Black and brown community, I see one of the biggest challenges as being the lack of family support for those students... Unstable family environments caused by housing and food insecurity along with lack of parental encouragement to focus on learning cause children to not be able to focus on or value learning"
> It's one of the core ideas of progressivism that poverty is a trap and that people need help from the government to escape it.
Except that somehow it also adopted a notion that certain groups are forever victims. Black communities are struggling? That's because of white supremacy and systemic racism. So we need to double the struggle against the white supremacy.
Investigating the causes of Black struggles? That's racist.
Easy. Ann Hsu, a school board member in SF: https://sfstandard.com/2022/07/19/racially-insensitive-schoo...
Here are her exact words: "Especially in the Black and brown community, I see one of the biggest challenges as being the lack of family support for those students... Unstable family environments caused by housing and food insecurity along with lack of parental encouragement to focus on learning cause children to not be able to focus on or value learning"
> It's one of the core ideas of progressivism that poverty is a trap and that people need help from the government to escape it.
Except that somehow it also adopted a notion that certain groups are forever victims. Black communities are struggling? That's because of white supremacy and systemic racism. So we need to double the struggle against the white supremacy.
Investigating the causes of Black struggles? That's racist.
That's a really good point right there.
i blame it on culture
> Why would they not just steal two or three cars,
Is this a real question? You're coming at this with the position that car theft is so easy because it's easy to get away with and has a high rate of return. That only works if you have the connections with chop shops or exporters to be able to get money for that car. You also have to have the skills/tools for being able to steal the car in the first place. To flip that, the people that do steal cars would probably have no clue on how to dismantle a steel structure, have the means to load/haul that steel, or know what recycling places will even buy from them without immediately reporting it to police.
Is this a real question? You're coming at this with the position that car theft is so easy because it's easy to get away with and has a high rate of return. That only works if you have the connections with chop shops or exporters to be able to get money for that car. You also have to have the skills/tools for being able to steal the car in the first place. To flip that, the people that do steal cars would probably have no clue on how to dismantle a steel structure, have the means to load/haul that steel, or know what recycling places will even buy from them without immediately reporting it to police.
Reminds me of sand theft. Apparently, sometimes even an entire beach gets dug up and stolen.
Planet Money did an episode on it.
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/628890875
Planet Money did an episode on it.
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/628890875
The tower can get some stub legs welded on and it'll be good as new, at least $10,000 worth, maybe as much as $15,000. The 200' self supporting tower I've been eying is $11,000 used.
100k between 4-5 people, is a lot of money for a lot of people. Especially metal stealing ones
I highly doubt it's worth 100k as scrap. The "6 figures" price tag was to replace it. Maybe they have some way to sell this equipment for its original purpose, but if they are selling it for scrap it'll go for a tiny fraction of what it would be worth in working condition.
400 tons?
As a reference: A 10-foot section of Rohn 45G weighs about 70 pounds. 200 feet of 45G is thus about 1,400 pounds -- less than a ton.
(I do not know if this particular tower was Rohn 45G or something else that may be heavier -- I only know that it was a guyed tower, and that (when guyed) 45G can be stacked beyond 200 feet.)
As a reference: A 10-foot section of Rohn 45G weighs about 70 pounds. 200 feet of 45G is thus about 1,400 pounds -- less than a ton.
(I do not know if this particular tower was Rohn 45G or something else that may be heavier -- I only know that it was a guyed tower, and that (when guyed) 45G can be stacked beyond 200 feet.)
~5 years ago when I was driving back and forth to an adjacent state to work on our house to get it on the market, I discover my ground wire had been stolen. It was no more than 2' long and was the only exposed wire outside. The house was on a very rural 2 mile road with only 7-8 other houses. They had to be desperate.
400 tons is 800k pounds or 10 fully laden semi trailers of material, it’s definitely not anywhere near that much. I bet you could fit the whole thing on one flatbed with room to spare.
It's definitely not that much, as the yard near me pays $0.60 a pound and that tower is not worth $500k.
pelorat(1)
Seems like there could be more to the story.. perhaps an alternate explanation than scrap value. a giant steel frame for an antenna would have scrap value, but relatively not that much. For a lot less hassle and more money you could grab a couple semi trailers and cut them up, they are usually just laying around unhooked.
Then again I guess meth heads aren’t masters of cost benefit analysis
Then again I guess meth heads aren’t masters of cost benefit analysis
In south africa we have multiple stories of people destroying massive power transmission systems for the smallest piece of copper pipe or conductor thats exposed on the side of a transformer.
Metal theft is almost universally not accompanied by common sense.
Metal theft is almost universally not accompanied by common sense.
South Africa is one the most unequal and dangerous advanced economies where middle class white people almost universally live in fortified compounds. Desperation, unemployment, and crushing poverty is what drives such property crime.
A friend of mine lived in the suburbs of Moscow in 1991. The family was watching TV when suddenly the power went out. It turns out someone stole the power lines to sell for scrap. Infrastructure cannibalism is a sign of civilization on the verge of collapse.
A friend of mine lived in the suburbs of Moscow in 1991. The family was watching TV when suddenly the power went out. It turns out someone stole the power lines to sell for scrap. Infrastructure cannibalism is a sign of civilization on the verge of collapse.
Im sad to admit that this has happened about a dozen times in my life since the 00s, in South Africa.
It reminds me of this story, an elderly woman cutting Armenia off the internet after mistaking a fiber with copper https://www.neowin.net/news/75-year-old-granny-cuts-off-the-...
Scrap metal thieves are indeed not always the brightest. I've heard of cases of attempted thefts of (powered) power lines of electrified railways...
I agree.
A tire manufacturing plant closed in my home city back in the early 2000s. I guy we knew from high school wanted the copper that came to the plant under ground in a vault. He figured for some reason it was disco … and blam fried his legs and hands completely cooked all his nerves in them and apparently one of his teeth exploded.. I mean , why would they turn service off to a manufacturing plant when they can just pull the meter ?
20 years ago rotten.com would post pictures of charred thieves that managed to electrocute themselves at the top of a pole.
This happened in Amsterdam a couple of decades ago. There was a newly minted industrial area on the other side of a bridge and the power company had temporarily run a pretty beefy hookup to the other side of the canal (Zeeburgerdijk) to power the various businesses there. The cable was about 4" thick. One night the power went out without warning and the power company showed up, when they found the break they found a hacksaw embedded in the cable fused solidly to the cable guts.
They never bothered to file a report with the police because they figured whoever did that had been punished enough and sure enough there was a report of a guy with massive burns reporting to a nearby hospital that same night.
They never bothered to file a report with the police because they figured whoever did that had been punished enough and sure enough there was a report of a guy with massive burns reporting to a nearby hospital that same night.
Happened in San Francisco too, although without any report of injury.
https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/thieves-steal-16-feet-of-cop...
https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/thieves-steal-16-feet-of-cop...
Death porn and poverty porn are disgusting.
I should feel bad for the outcome, but i don't....
[deleted]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZSxb8QIIa4
jeff geerling made a video on this, has some details on FM/AM translators, and how difficult it is to dismantle a tower.
jeff geerling made a video on this, has some details on FM/AM translators, and how difficult it is to dismantle a tower.
Wouldn't it be easier to destroy the supports, causing it to fall?
As long as the power is off, this seems faster.
As long as the power is off, this seems faster.
Presumably the power was on—else the FM translator would've been in violation if it was transmitting. Also the owner never mentioned any monitoring of the AM signal, but most radio stations have at least one if not two or three different means to monitor their signals (and the FM is supposed to be integrated into that since it's not its own station).
If the tower disappeared overnight... it would not be able to be done without a trace, and if any listeners were listening, for almost any station I've heard of, at least one listener would call into the station.
If the tower disappeared overnight... it would not be able to be done without a trace, and if any listeners were listening, for almost any station I've heard of, at least one listener would call into the station.
A better source than the tabloid New York Post: https://www.al.com/news/2024/02/someone-stole-a-jasper-radio...
Thanks! We've changed to that from https://nypost.com/2024/02/07/news/radio-station-baffled-aft....
How did they not notice this immediately themselves instead of having a landscaping crew notify them?
When I was a broadcast engineer, we were required to constantly monitor the on-the-air signal. In addition, that tower is live. How did they disconnect it without serious shock?
When I was a broadcast engineer, we were required to constantly monitor the on-the-air signal. In addition, that tower is live. How did they disconnect it without serious shock?
The most plausible theory to me: this is all FCC licensing related, where the owner is operating an FM station that is licensed as an AM station + repeater, but _nobody_ listens to the AM station or cares. Other comments say they haven’t been broadcasting on AM in ~5 years, so it seems likely that it was stolen much earlier and nobody noticed. The Jeff Geerling video kind of supports this, but doesn’t call anyone out since it is speculative. Because if it is true, the station either didn’t notice, or ignored it until the landscapers filed a report, forcing them to address it and pretend like it just happened.
A small-town radio station likely doesn't have a 24/7 monitor. And it is AM, which they seem to be have kept running only to facilitate their FM license. I bet they just sent it a feed and checked on it ever few days/weeks. If a small AM station drops off the air, would any listeners think to inquire about why?
Steel scraps at $225 a ton..
That's about what a large pickup truck can haul.
Copper is worth 20x more.
I dunno, if you're willing to work that hard you could probably just become a contractor.
That's about what a large pickup truck can haul.
Copper is worth 20x more.
I dunno, if you're willing to work that hard you could probably just become a contractor.
I think the issue is that some people are willing to work quite hard, but only intermittently. (Though that doesn't necessarily disqualify them from being a contractor either, I suppose.)
[deleted]
Most people don't fear hard work, they fear being beholden to other people. Ain't nobody hiring a contractor under the terms of "Yeah, go ahead and build me a house however you like, whenever you feel like it. I don't care about what you do."
How come they didn't notice that their service went dead when the tower was stolen?
The tweet says "a tower site" which implies they have others. It's entirely possible/likely that they have multiple towers for better coverage; if one went down they would lose some coverage area but not all of it.
It's an AM station, so they may also shut down overnight (as many small stations do to avoid over-propagation).
Off topic: I could have guessed that guy was a radio station manager without any context. There's just a look to them.
It's an AM station, so they may also shut down overnight (as many small stations do to avoid over-propagation).
Off topic: I could have guessed that guy was a radio station manager without any context. There's just a look to them.
The tweet said that they took a crew with a bush hog ([1]) to "do early cleanup of the property before we do more work down there". So this was almost certainly a long-abandoned radio tower that they acquired and were planning to bring into service. The grass needs to be severely overgrown before you need a bush hog.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brush_hog
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brush_hog
> The grass needs to be severely overgrown before you need a bush hog.
Use of a bush hug does not imply the need for a bush hog, though. Even for routine maintenance of the grass you're apt to choose the bush hog out of convenience and practicality. It's not like you're going to waste time puttering around with the push mower you cut your grass at home with for a tower site out in the middle of nowhere.
Use of a bush hug does not imply the need for a bush hog, though. Even for routine maintenance of the grass you're apt to choose the bush hog out of convenience and practicality. It's not like you're going to waste time puttering around with the push mower you cut your grass at home with for a tower site out in the middle of nowhere.
I used to mow the grass at an active radio station. I occasionally had to DR a path to each tower so they could do maintenance. They don't regularly mow the fields where the towers are, though Toro did occasionally come out and mow the whole thing as a test site for new mowers, which was neat.
A single season of no maintenance in rural Alabama could easily allow the property to be full of Giant Hogweed[1] which seems to allow UV light to penetrate our skin a lot more easily, causing severe burns. Especially around a tower where birds roost and spread droppings for 100 feet around the area.
1. https://www.al.com/news/2018/07/giant_hogweed_plant_on_alaba...
1. https://www.al.com/news/2018/07/giant_hogweed_plant_on_alaba...
Absolutely. One season of no maintenance in Alabama is enough for any property to be overgrown. Everything grows like weeds here, even pine trees
[deleted]
I was hoping this was an actual hog, like the goats you can get to eat your lawn.
>There's just a look to them.
Yup I’ve got a face for radio as well.
Yup I’ve got a face for radio as well.
based on the description this was an unattended repeater
It's covered in the article...
I need to check my homeowner's insurance to see if I'm covered if the house is stolen.
Not as implausible as it sounds...
The guy in Luton whose house was stolen did get it back, but it took two years.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67356...
The guy in Luton whose house was stolen did get it back, but it took two years.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67356...
In this case the squatter was able to legally sell the house in his name:
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/squatter-...
>He applied to the courts for permanent possession of the home and won following an appeal, despite the judge accepting that he had committed criminal trespass. According to new reports, Mr Best has now sold the home for a huge profit.
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/squatter-...
>He applied to the courts for permanent possession of the home and won following an appeal, despite the judge accepting that he had committed criminal trespass. According to new reports, Mr Best has now sold the home for a huge profit.
When the courts legalize theft, it is past time for a revolution.
You should also check if the coverage depends on who does the stealing. Like, if your house is stolen into the spirit world like in Poltergeist. Clearly, this wasn't an act of God.
Ah. "The Problem of the Missing Baseball"
I lived in Jasper about 15 years ago for about 5 years. Meth is a huge problem on this area and so is metal theft. Many facilities and even homes have their outdoor AC units in cages to prevent theft. Even church vans/busses not parked in garages often have their catalytic converters stolen. It is a sad state of affairs.
If stuff like this surprises you, then you haven't seen David Copperfield make an airplane and statue of liberty disappear.
I'm not sure if you're trying to make some sort of joke or not, but that's not really related at all. This tower thing was just something in a remote location being dismantled in between regular visits, which is not at all how Copperfield accomplished those illusions.
Is anyone here familiar with structures like these? Do you have any theories how this could have happened?
Two to four people showed up in a pickup pulling a flatbed trailer, armed with battery powered metal saws and a dream. The rest should be self-explanatory.
You could rent all of the equipment for a few hundred dollars: a 3/4 or 1-ton truck, a 30-40’ flatbed trailer, and a few portabands/angle grinders.
Hi-vis vests and hard hats also lend an air of legitimacy.
You could rent all of the equipment for a few hundred dollars: a 3/4 or 1-ton truck, a 30-40’ flatbed trailer, and a few portabands/angle grinders.
Hi-vis vests and hard hats also lend an air of legitimacy.
Hi-vis vests and hard hats at night are still super suspicious. No legit crew would do this kind of thing at night.
Is there any reason to believe it was done at night? It does not sound like they have any idea when it disappeared, or how long it was gone before they noticed.
The tower seems to be in a relatively remote field, and the tower seems pretty small (judging from [1]). Cut it down and in to pieces with a few battery-powered grinders, put in a van or two (or a small truck), and off you go. I suspect this may be easier than it appears at first sight.
[1]: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/02/08/us/stolen-transmitter-rad...
[1]: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/02/08/us/stolen-transmitter-rad...
How realistic is the theory in the article regarding it being picked up by a helicopter? I don't know how much a tower like that could weight, nor how much a typical helicopter that a private individual has access to could lift.
But if they'd be able to collect a significant value after cutting it down into pieces somewhere else and sell the pieces, maybe it makes sense (from the thief's perspective) to helicopter away the tower after detaching it from the ground.
But if they'd be able to collect a significant value after cutting it down into pieces somewhere else and sell the pieces, maybe it makes sense (from the thief's perspective) to helicopter away the tower after detaching it from the ground.
It's a small tower, but I'd think it'd probably still weighs a couple thousand pounds. I could be way off there and it's smaller than it looks in the CNN photo, but you're likely looking at using a construction helicopter and needing experienced people capable of rigging the tower and actually lifting it without killing everybody.
My guess is that they just dropped it and chopped it up. A helicopter seems ridiculously over-the-top and cartoonish for a couple hundred bucks in scrap metal value you'd gain from the theft. You'd waste more than that in just fuel for the helicopter.
My guess is that they just dropped it and chopped it up. A helicopter seems ridiculously over-the-top and cartoonish for a couple hundred bucks in scrap metal value you'd gain from the theft. You'd waste more than that in just fuel for the helicopter.
Plus it would have to be a $100M military super stealth chopper to do a theft in the night, and would probably also have to be operated by that same military to force all the air traffic infrastructure to look the other way and see nothing.
I think we have our answer. Obviously that station was spreading the wrong ideas to the public, and now they are not.
I think we have our answer. Obviously that station was spreading the wrong ideas to the public, and now they are not.
Why would it have to be stealthy? Even if they did it in broad daylight, announcing their presence with a loudspeaker, "We are taking this tower." Would I, a random bystander care? For all I know, they were contracted by the owner.
Definitively someone else's problem.
Definitively someone else's problem.
you can look up historical data about what aircraft were where at what time.
As long as the ADS-B transponder is on, yeah. I'm guessing if you're about to do a short flight to hijack a radio tower, you might want to turn that off.
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I once got a quote to sling a 1500 lb load 5 miles from an airport to a remote area. $10,000.
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I don't think the helicopter was meant to be a real suggestion, just relaying an example of some of the calls and emails they've received. I think it was meant to sound silly but just show that people are interested, including people with no real idea.
All in all, the physical theft looks almost trivial to me going by the pictures of the actual site.
What mystifies me is how it went unnoticed at the electrical level, that a landscaper had to tell them.
The location is remote and unmanned, but the station must know instantly when anything at all changes even slightly about the transmitter or antenna.
Not because of webcams or anything like that either.
The connections from the signal source to the transmitter and from the transmitter to the antenna are not just one-way and blind. Any change at the load directly and instantly affects the source.
I mean obviously I must be wrong about that somewhere along the way.
I actually had a ham licence but back in the 80s and I was only 11 or so. So my understanding is both educated and not.
All in all, the physical theft looks almost trivial to me going by the pictures of the actual site.
What mystifies me is how it went unnoticed at the electrical level, that a landscaper had to tell them.
The location is remote and unmanned, but the station must know instantly when anything at all changes even slightly about the transmitter or antenna.
Not because of webcams or anything like that either.
The connections from the signal source to the transmitter and from the transmitter to the antenna are not just one-way and blind. Any change at the load directly and instantly affects the source.
I mean obviously I must be wrong about that somewhere along the way.
I actually had a ham licence but back in the 80s and I was only 11 or so. So my understanding is both educated and not.
I once worked at a company that put telemetry equipment out in the field. At a planning meeting for one project, some of the project's locations were not very accessible, i.e. one was at the top of a cliff. Someone made the flip remark about using a helicopter. The manager, who was an ex-seal, checked into it, and found they could afford it if they were strict about the flying-time, and that's what they used. The former manager, who had gotten the project for the company, would have had everyone using pack-mules, because he liked recreational backpacking.
... and Jeff Geerling's dad confirms, NO WAY this happened without the head end knowing instantly, and not just because listeners will call in. And also, even as dinky as it looks in the pics, he finds it very hard to imagine how it could be moved in a night.
The plot thickens a little.
Theft like this is suprisingly common, usually everybody assumes it's people doing their job.
One of the theories I'm seeing is that the owner dismantled the item because they didn't want to maintain the AM station, just their FM translator. The alleged theft is just a cover store to cover their actions.
The AM station was fairly small at 1KW, and only had a 200 foot tower which is also rather small. Some folks looking into it found public records from the FCC showing that the owner has be fined or found to be out of compliance for only using the FM translator with the AM station off air in the past, so this points to possible motivation.
The AM station was fairly small at 1KW, and only had a 200 foot tower which is also rather small. Some folks looking into it found public records from the FCC showing that the owner has be fined or found to be out of compliance for only using the FM translator with the AM station off air in the past, so this points to possible motivation.
Meth heads are REALLY stepping up their game.
they can get resourceful that's for sure. A family friend had a catalytic converter stolen in the parking lot of a grocery store when they stopped to pick up a few things. Stealing a catalytic converter involves cutting parts of the exhaust system out of a car.
It takes about 30 seconds to make two cuts through exhaust pipe with a one handed battery sawzall or battery angle grinder.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-M18-FUEL-18V-Lithium-I...
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-M18-FUEL-18V-Lithium-I...
Skilled thieves can do that with a battery powered saw in less than 30 seconds, there's been more than enough videos on youtube showing just how easy it is.
Cheap battery powered tools have made a lot of crime a hell of a lot easier.
Cheap battery powered tools have made a lot of crime a hell of a lot easier.
Just wait for the drones that bring the saw and haul away the converter.
A lot of Priuses in my neighborhood lost their catalytic converters a few winters ago. Mostly this happened at night, so there was more time than for whoever hit your friend's car..
so in defense, you can have a catalytic converter cage put in, but it seems they will just cut through that as well to get at the catalytic converter.
There's a lot of detailed discussion in the Radio community here:
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/threads/wjlx-200-tower-repo...
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/threads/wjlx-200-tower-repo...
Thanks for sharing, interesting forum post by radio experts. The conclusions they suggest like it being removed because they didn't pay their lease and just transmitted from their translator makes sense.
If you need more radio tower stories tonight: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_(2022_film)
I'm not particularly susceptible to jump scares in movies or anything shocking really, but, this movie had me on the edge of my seat.
Good movie, much better than expected. Watch some of the making of features too, they filmed it all "real" (up on a 50ft tower or something) and it shows in the acting.
Good movie, much better than expected. Watch some of the making of features too, they filmed it all "real" (up on a 50ft tower or something) and it shows in the acting.
My money is on this being insurance fraud.
The estimate, he said, is expected to be six figures. Elmore did not have insurance on that property.
edit: quote from https://www.al.com/news/2024/02/someone-stole-a-jasper-radio...
edit: quote from https://www.al.com/news/2024/02/someone-stole-a-jasper-radio...
It was an AM station so I wouldn’t rule out political motivations.
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The world has changed in odd ways. Ten or twenty years ago, this would seem like very ambitious drug addicts. Today, there’s a real chance that this will turn out to be a prank for Internet cred. And as strange or unlikely as that sounds, a guy recently made the news for intentionally crashing a plane for internet cred. I sure never would have imagined that.
We live in interesting times and that’s not always a good thing.
We live in interesting times and that’s not always a good thing.
This is totally Walker county. It was an AM station so it probably took the owner the weekend to look into it. We’ve got local stations near me that relay to the top of a nearby mountain and weather or road conditions can delay repairing that local station. I have family in Jasper, this really happened it’s wild that’s it’s national news.
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There's no discussion, but a 200 foot tower doesn't come down without evidence on the ground unless you have, well, a 200 foot crane.
If you cut the wires on the type of radio tower, it will come down on its own.
Yes, certainly. But the point is that it will leave *VERY* obvious indications that it was felled in such a way.
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Jasper has always had a unique brand of criminal:
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-jul-29-mn-60726...
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-jul-29-mn-60726...
Fun fact, my grandparents moved into that house. It was cheap, and within a year they found part of an undetonated pipe bomb in the shed in the back which the ATF came and confiscated.
Jasper is a strange place. You hear of meth heads, being in north central AL and all. But the town has a unique history and there are actually a lot of really rich folks and nice neighborhoods there. It's an old mining town with a lot of old money, and rich folk from all over move there because of Smith lake. It used to be "the hitman capital" of the US and I've heard stories from a pilot friend of an umarked and unidentified black leer jet transporting shady individuals/cargo that used to frequent the Walker County Airport.
Jasper is a strange place. You hear of meth heads, being in north central AL and all. But the town has a unique history and there are actually a lot of really rich folks and nice neighborhoods there. It's an old mining town with a lot of old money, and rich folk from all over move there because of Smith lake. It used to be "the hitman capital" of the US and I've heard stories from a pilot friend of an umarked and unidentified black leer jet transporting shady individuals/cargo that used to frequent the Walker County Airport.
This guy Jaspers
OT:
One of the best short stories ever written is O. Henry's "A Retrieved Reformation".
It takes place in Elmore, is about a thief, and is WTF. Which is a tenuous connection, but nonetheless a story worth reading ;)
One of the best short stories ever written is O. Henry's "A Retrieved Reformation".
It takes place in Elmore, is about a thief, and is WTF. Which is a tenuous connection, but nonetheless a story worth reading ;)
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This reminds me of [1]
[1]: https://archive.ph/tOuMU
[1]: https://archive.ph/tOuMU
Interesting that the folks making the broadcast weren’t listening to it.
The thing about this theft is that in order for it to be worth the effort, there needs to be a buyer.
Is the FBI looking into what must be an organized metal salvage pipeline? First the salvage place needs to pay the thieves, no questions asked and no paper trail involved, then they need to pile it or chop it up, then sell it on to industrial factories that can use it, who must look the other way in terms of knowing about the source of the metal.
This involves (among other crimes) tax evasion, book keeping fraud, money laundering, secrecy and probably a lot of bribery.
I mean, if I can't buy pseudoephedrine without the state recording my license, surely it'd be pretty straightforward to require the same to sell copper.
Is the FBI looking into what must be an organized metal salvage pipeline? First the salvage place needs to pay the thieves, no questions asked and no paper trail involved, then they need to pile it or chop it up, then sell it on to industrial factories that can use it, who must look the other way in terms of knowing about the source of the metal.
This involves (among other crimes) tax evasion, book keeping fraud, money laundering, secrecy and probably a lot of bribery.
I mean, if I can't buy pseudoephedrine without the state recording my license, surely it'd be pretty straightforward to require the same to sell copper.
My BS detector is going off on this. It's such a monumental effort for what would quickly become pretty worthless scrap
Someone who needs a 200' self-supporting tower. Getting one from Rohn is probably $15,000 to $20,000 and more than half that used. I've been shopping towers for several years and when I read the headline my first thought was "yeah, Starlink needs a clear view of the sky" not "some meth head tryin' to sell steel for scrap."
Jasper and the surrounding area is very similar to Shittown (of podcast fame).
Crazy shit happens there for random reasons that probably won’t make sense to an outsider.
This could be as simple as someone having a beef with a person at the station or one of the content sources that the AM station broadcasts.
It could be something as simple as drunken weekend shenanigans. Why? Because they could.
Crazy shit happens there for random reasons that probably won’t make sense to an outsider.
This could be as simple as someone having a beef with a person at the station or one of the content sources that the AM station broadcasts.
It could be something as simple as drunken weekend shenanigans. Why? Because they could.
"Better Ads Experience Program Certified"?
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meth addicts
You're being downvoted but I used to live there and I think you're right on the money.
Blessed are the scrappers, for they shall inherit… 200’ tall radio towers?