Tesla reportedly drops plan to build $25,000 EV(techcrunch.com)
techcrunch.com
Tesla reportedly drops plan to build $25,000 EV
https://techcrunch.com/2024/04/05/tesla-abandons-low-cost-ev-robotaxi/
67 comments
If you want economy and to save the planet, a Prius is probably the way to go for a long time.
But electric mode all the time is nice from a fun perspective. I think EVs are just great drives.
But electric mode all the time is nice from a fun perspective. I think EVs are just great drives.
https://www.aceee.org/greener-cars
#1 on the Greener Cars list.
Running the math, its clear that ACEEE assumes you're 100% Electric. According to brief Reddit searches, it seems like Prius Prime 2024 is closer to 75% electric / 25% gasoline in practice. (You could *theoretically* stay in 100% electric mode since its just one button click... but 11-second 0-to-60 time is pretty bad, so many people prefer to be in Hybrid mode instead)
That's still quite good though. And if you've got a lot of city driving (ex: 0-to-30 times), then 100% EV mode button is probably pleasurable. But if you have a highway or two as your commute, you'll want the ICE engine part of Prius Prime to get you up to speed.
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Still, Prius Prime is incredibly efficient. In 100% gas mode, it still scores 64 Green Score due to its lack of rare-earth metals in its EV motors, its smaller 13.6kW-hr battery pack (less Lithium/Cobalt being mines), and far lighter weight than most EVs. And at 130+ MPGe, its going to use less electricity than most EVs (even highly efficient ones like Leaf).
So all in all, Prius Prime is likely the most environmentally friendly vehicle you can buy in practice (even after correcting ACEEE's mistake of 100% EV assumption on this vehicle).
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The only real downside is that most drivers don't plan to use the PHEV part, and instead focus on the Hybrid part. At which point, the Corolla Hybrid or Crown Hybrids are better vehicles.
#1 on the Greener Cars list.
Running the math, its clear that ACEEE assumes you're 100% Electric. According to brief Reddit searches, it seems like Prius Prime 2024 is closer to 75% electric / 25% gasoline in practice. (You could *theoretically* stay in 100% electric mode since its just one button click... but 11-second 0-to-60 time is pretty bad, so many people prefer to be in Hybrid mode instead)
That's still quite good though. And if you've got a lot of city driving (ex: 0-to-30 times), then 100% EV mode button is probably pleasurable. But if you have a highway or two as your commute, you'll want the ICE engine part of Prius Prime to get you up to speed.
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Still, Prius Prime is incredibly efficient. In 100% gas mode, it still scores 64 Green Score due to its lack of rare-earth metals in its EV motors, its smaller 13.6kW-hr battery pack (less Lithium/Cobalt being mines), and far lighter weight than most EVs. And at 130+ MPGe, its going to use less electricity than most EVs (even highly efficient ones like Leaf).
So all in all, Prius Prime is likely the most environmentally friendly vehicle you can buy in practice (even after correcting ACEEE's mistake of 100% EV assumption on this vehicle).
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The only real downside is that most drivers don't plan to use the PHEV part, and instead focus on the Hybrid part. At which point, the Corolla Hybrid or Crown Hybrids are better vehicles.
Why is it the most environmentally friendly car when pure EVs are also practical and widely available. I fail to see how adding a fossil fuel burning motor, no matter how efficient, is anything other than worse for the environment.
ACEEE factors in the lifetime emissions of the chemistry of the battery.
Some batteries, like NCA, have worse emissions than others.
Also: the grid is mostly coal and nat. gas today. Case in point: the Hummer EV burns more fossil fuels on electricity because it weighs 4 tons.
EV doesn't make anything automatically more efficient. Only the smallest and lightest EVs, like the Leaf, have high environmental scores.
Some batteries, like NCA, have worse emissions than others.
Also: the grid is mostly coal and nat. gas today. Case in point: the Hummer EV burns more fossil fuels on electricity because it weighs 4 tons.
EV doesn't make anything automatically more efficient. Only the smallest and lightest EVs, like the Leaf, have high environmental scores.
Weight had no relevance for the bulk of (most people’s?) miles. Flat ground at highest speeds, weight has zero bearing on fuel usage.
My EV does 0-60 in 6 seconds, so I'm wondering...does the Prius just have a small electric drive train? I thought it would be the opposite (electric fast to accelerate, combustion maybe better at cruising at high speeds).
Prius's EV is very small.
Prius EV is less than 100hp, and the ICE is under 150hp. But together they combine for 220hp.
But rumor is that Prius's EV motor is battery limited, not size limited. So it makes no sense making a bigger EV motor on this vehicle, not until Toyota adds a bigger battery al least.
Prius EV is less than 100hp, and the ICE is under 150hp. But together they combine for 220hp.
But rumor is that Prius's EV motor is battery limited, not size limited. So it makes no sense making a bigger EV motor on this vehicle, not until Toyota adds a bigger battery al least.
Got it. Using both at the same time is a boost. I hope Toyota and Honda get more serious about EVs soon. I really prefer Japanese styling and economy over the German EV I have now.
I don't think there's much to expect from Honda, really.
Toyota has bz4x at least for pure EV. But Toyota's hybrids and PHEVs are the best on the market. The EV market has a lot more competition.
I really do think that PHEV is the right answer for the majority of Americans. Honda's got great Hybrids but no PHEVs right now in the American market (Honda Insight and Clarity were both cancelled).
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Studies like ACEEE's "Greener Cars" show that PHEVs and Hybrids (Ex: Prius Prime, Prius, Honda Accord Hybrids) are still top10 choices for environmentalists today however.
So no "need" to go EV if you're trying to be environmentally friendly. There's still a lot of work to make EVs better for the environment. Battery chemistry is a big deal and is uneven across EV manufacturers, some chemistries like NCA are dirtier than others.
Toyota has bz4x at least for pure EV. But Toyota's hybrids and PHEVs are the best on the market. The EV market has a lot more competition.
I really do think that PHEV is the right answer for the majority of Americans. Honda's got great Hybrids but no PHEVs right now in the American market (Honda Insight and Clarity were both cancelled).
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Studies like ACEEE's "Greener Cars" show that PHEVs and Hybrids (Ex: Prius Prime, Prius, Honda Accord Hybrids) are still top10 choices for environmentalists today however.
So no "need" to go EV if you're trying to be environmentally friendly. There's still a lot of work to make EVs better for the environment. Battery chemistry is a big deal and is uneven across EV manufacturers, some chemistries like NCA are dirtier than others.
Honda has some deals with Chevy ATM that are bizarre. But I really like their ICE cars and it’s sad they aren’t bothering with EVs. An EV civic would be awesome.
I’m not worried about going green, I just prefer the EV driving experience. I know that’s a bit selfish, but many car enthusiasts after trying EVs can’t go back to ICEs, let alone hybrids.
I’m not worried about going green, I just prefer the EV driving experience. I know that’s a bit selfish, but many car enthusiasts after trying EVs can’t go back to ICEs, let alone hybrids.
If you want fun, you want the best Horsepower:Weight, and EVs just aren't there in a lot of ways. In any case, having a battery, whether in a hybrid or not opens up regenerative braking, which is a huge win for either category.
I love driving my EV. Ya, it is heavy like a boat, but it goes zoom so much. The real problem is wearing down the tires because I keep gassing it coming off red lights, 0-25 pretty fast.
Except Toyota doesn't actually have it's shit together enough to make them in any quantity.
2022 Prius Prime sales: 5353
2022 Ferrari sales: 4922
A Ferrari rare car is not the solution to anything. Last I heard the waitlist on the Rav4 prime was years long here in Canada.
https://insideevs.com/news/676057/us-toyota-plugin-car-sales...
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/ferrari-us-sales-figures
2022 Prius Prime sales: 5353
2022 Ferrari sales: 4922
A Ferrari rare car is not the solution to anything. Last I heard the waitlist on the Rav4 prime was years long here in Canada.
https://insideevs.com/news/676057/us-toyota-plugin-car-sales...
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/ferrari-us-sales-figures
Regular Prius, and Corolla Hybrid / Crown Hybrid are more popular cars than Prius Prime.
PHEV is the least popular style in the USA. But they're readily available at the dealerships in my region at least.
PHEV is the least popular style in the USA. But they're readily available at the dealerships in my region at least.
I mean the actual Model 3 costs roughly the same as the Prius Prime. A 25k EV would look closer to something like the Nissan leaf or the Chevy volt with about 150-200 miles of range instead of 300+ and generally worse build quality.
Wasn't the model 3 supposed to be $30k? Why would they only make another vehicle only 5k less than the other one?
The Model 3 is $36k in China, $38k in the USA. They've missed the mark a bit, so a $25k vehicle might be welcome, especially in developing economies.
Well, adjusting for the inflation we’ve seen over the past few years, the price is actually not very far from 30k in pre-pandemic times.
They've already been beaten to the punch by BYD and their multiple cars under $20k. They even have a small hatchback for less than $10k!
https://electrek.co/2024/03/06/byd-launches-cheaper-seagull-...
https://electrek.co/2024/03/06/byd-launches-cheaper-seagull-...
Sure, but Tesla could always compete against BYD here if they wanted to. There might not be much profit in it, however, and Tesla has a bit better reputation at the high end whereas BYD might still be struggling to sell its higher priced vehicles (for now).
> They've missed the mark a bit
So, $25k car would actually be $30+k
So, $25k car would actually be $30+k
Would this have to do with ease of getting car loans? My coworkers and social circle all have $500-$1000/mo. car payments, and some have two car payments in that range. And the MSRP of these cars are 75k+. So it seems there is no incentive for an auto manufacture to make a car less than $45k.
New cars in most cases are basically a scam and you should get used and prices are much more reasonable there
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Completely agree.
> Tesla CEO Elon Musk claimed, without proof, that Reuters is “lying” in a post on his social media platform, X, and did not dispute any specific details.
This is wild to me. The CEO of the very company being discussed is saying that it is a false story and TechCrunch is saying that he made the claim without proof.
But they don't call out Reuters for posting this claim with zero proof.
This is wild to me. The CEO of the very company being discussed is saying that it is a false story and TechCrunch is saying that he made the claim without proof.
But they don't call out Reuters for posting this claim with zero proof.
On one side is Reuters with "three sources familiar with the matter and company messages seen by Reuters" and the other side is the CEO with a penchant for outright lies. Neither is a particularly reliable source but I don't see any problem with Tech Crunch's framing given Musk's history of outright lying about what's happening in Tesla.
Well unless Reuters just made up these 3 sources they aren't lying.
Even if what they're claiming is false, the most likely reason is that they've been fed wrong info by their sources.
But that's not what Elon is claiming. He's claiming that Reuters is knowingly printing information they know to be false.
Even if what they're claiming is false, the most likely reason is that they've been fed wrong info by their sources.
But that's not what Elon is claiming. He's claiming that Reuters is knowingly printing information they know to be false.
Verifying sources is a huge responsibility of news networks. You can get a source for anything you want, and they should be held reliable (in terms of respect, maybe not by law) for publishing information from sources that are false.
IF (and that's the IF, not saying it's the case) Tesla did not drop plans to build $25k EVs, then people should criticize reuters for getting it wrong.
IF (and that's the IF, not saying it's the case) Tesla did not drop plans to build $25k EVs, then people should criticize reuters for getting it wrong.
What is some of the outright lying?
And let's not consider optimistic goals as lying, can you show examples of actual lying where he knew the opposite was true?
And let's not consider optimistic goals as lying, can you show examples of actual lying where he knew the opposite was true?
There's quite a few lists of you're actually interested. For example https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-lists/elon-musk... Just search for them - most are verified by his tweets at the time.
Literally first item on your list is basically too optimistic
> Talking Up Hyperloop, the (Fantasy) Transportation of the Future
Another item > Saying He’d Take Tesla Private With a Tweet, Then Getting Sued for Fraud
Actual tweet: “Am considering taking Tesla private at $420. Funding secured.”
Which a) reads like a joke and b) didn't say he is taking, but considering. The only potential lie is wrt funding, which he still claims he had secured.
> Procrastinating on an Epic Manned Mission to Mars
Again, over-promising / optimistic. It's not outright lying.
> Resorting to ‘Pedo’ Smears Because Someone Didn’t Like His Little Submersible
Only lie, but it's more of petty insulting than outright lying, at least when it comes to with relation in business matters.
> Constantly Kicking the Can Down the Road on Fully Self-Driving Teslas
Again, optimistic.
First 5 points addressed, and it's junk. The closest thing to him outright lying is the “Am considering taking Tesla private at $420. Funding secured.” tweet. And that's the best. The rest of the article is just whining about twitter this and that. It's a hit piece instead of an objective list of lies.
> Talking Up Hyperloop, the (Fantasy) Transportation of the Future
Another item > Saying He’d Take Tesla Private With a Tweet, Then Getting Sued for Fraud
Actual tweet: “Am considering taking Tesla private at $420. Funding secured.”
Which a) reads like a joke and b) didn't say he is taking, but considering. The only potential lie is wrt funding, which he still claims he had secured.
> Procrastinating on an Epic Manned Mission to Mars
Again, over-promising / optimistic. It's not outright lying.
> Resorting to ‘Pedo’ Smears Because Someone Didn’t Like His Little Submersible
Only lie, but it's more of petty insulting than outright lying, at least when it comes to with relation in business matters.
> Constantly Kicking the Can Down the Road on Fully Self-Driving Teslas
Again, optimistic.
First 5 points addressed, and it's junk. The closest thing to him outright lying is the “Am considering taking Tesla private at $420. Funding secured.” tweet. And that's the best. The rest of the article is just whining about twitter this and that. It's a hit piece instead of an objective list of lies.
Check mate. He cannot have lied about Tesla if anything he says about Tesla is categorically excluded from being a lie for the purposes of this conversation.
We are excluding optimistic promises that weren't true, because it's completely different than outright lying about what you are working on
> We are excluding optimistic promises that weren't true
You're excluding that. Most people do not, because he has a history of making wildly optimistic (to the point of completely unrealistic) "predictions" in order to froth up media attention and juice his company's value. Most people consider this a lie. You don't.
You're excluding that. Most people do not, because he has a history of making wildly optimistic (to the point of completely unrealistic) "predictions" in order to froth up media attention and juice his company's value. Most people consider this a lie. You don't.
arandomusername took the time to acknowledge a whole category of Musk’s statements that would be considered lies if we didn’t make a special excuse for them. The challenge here is “prove to me that he’s a liar within the framework of my own mind where I’ve declared him an honest man”
Would you consider it lying if he made optimistic promises while knowing they were impossible?
yes
So you think that Elon seriously believed that Autopilot was coming the same year for 9 years or so in a row? If that wasn’t a total lie, he’s really stupid. He obviously knows that he’s wrong but still makes completely unrealistic predictions for hype/marketing reasons. That’s lying.
Exactly. We are excluding his public statements about Tesla because
[deleted]
> Actual tweet: “Am considering taking Tesla private at $420. Funding secured.”
> Which a) reads like a joke and b) didn't say he is taking, but considering. The only potential lie is wrt funding, which he still claims he had secured.
It wasn't a potential lie. He _had not_ secured funding.
> Only lie, but it's more of petty insulting than outright lying, at least when it comes to with relation in business matters.
It's a "petty insult" to say "I have evidence that you are a pedophile, arandomusername" to all the media that will print it? No, he had no evidence. In fact he scrambled after this to hire a private investigator to try to find some.
But that didn't stop him, Musk himself literally emailed BuzzFeed to say "I have proof that he has a 12 year old child bride and is leading a trafficking ring."
"Petty insult" is insulting to the person on the receiving end of all this, and insulting to everyone else's intelligence.
> Constantly Kicking the Can Down the Road on Fully Self-Driving Teslas
> Again, optimistic.
Musk is literally signing documents being sent to DMVs saying that FSD "this year" is "not an engineering reality". That's not optimism. That's speaking out of both sides of your mouth. He knows its not happening this year, and he's signing official documents saying so, while pumping away on Twitter that it IS happening this year.
I think you give way too much credit to the "optimistic goals are not lying".
Elon has repeatedly done not just the "FSD is coming, this year, for reals", but "We are bumping this event in 3 months time because we'll have a huge announcement and release" that doesn't happen.
At some point you lose any credibility that you're "just being optimistic" and that you have zero evidence to say "X will be possible when I said so", and actual outright evidence from your engineers saying "X is not possible and will not be possible by then".
> "Twitter will be forming a content moderation council with widely diverse viewpoints. No major content decisions or account reinstatements will happen before that council convenes."
That was a lie. Musk reinstated thousands of banned accounts two weeks after that tweet, with no content moderation council in sight (which to this day has not been set up).
> "Bitcoin paid to Tesla will be retained as Bitcoin, not converted to fiat currency."
33 days later: "Tesla sells $272M in Bitcoin from orders."
You're contorting yourself to defend this man.
> Which a) reads like a joke and b) didn't say he is taking, but considering. The only potential lie is wrt funding, which he still claims he had secured.
It wasn't a potential lie. He _had not_ secured funding.
> Only lie, but it's more of petty insulting than outright lying, at least when it comes to with relation in business matters.
It's a "petty insult" to say "I have evidence that you are a pedophile, arandomusername" to all the media that will print it? No, he had no evidence. In fact he scrambled after this to hire a private investigator to try to find some.
But that didn't stop him, Musk himself literally emailed BuzzFeed to say "I have proof that he has a 12 year old child bride and is leading a trafficking ring."
"Petty insult" is insulting to the person on the receiving end of all this, and insulting to everyone else's intelligence.
> Constantly Kicking the Can Down the Road on Fully Self-Driving Teslas
> Again, optimistic.
Musk is literally signing documents being sent to DMVs saying that FSD "this year" is "not an engineering reality". That's not optimism. That's speaking out of both sides of your mouth. He knows its not happening this year, and he's signing official documents saying so, while pumping away on Twitter that it IS happening this year.
I think you give way too much credit to the "optimistic goals are not lying".
Elon has repeatedly done not just the "FSD is coming, this year, for reals", but "We are bumping this event in 3 months time because we'll have a huge announcement and release" that doesn't happen.
At some point you lose any credibility that you're "just being optimistic" and that you have zero evidence to say "X will be possible when I said so", and actual outright evidence from your engineers saying "X is not possible and will not be possible by then".
> "Twitter will be forming a content moderation council with widely diverse viewpoints. No major content decisions or account reinstatements will happen before that council convenes."
That was a lie. Musk reinstated thousands of banned accounts two weeks after that tweet, with no content moderation council in sight (which to this day has not been set up).
> "Bitcoin paid to Tesla will be retained as Bitcoin, not converted to fiat currency."
33 days later: "Tesla sells $272M in Bitcoin from orders."
You're contorting yourself to defend this man.
> It wasn't a potential lie. He _had not_ secured funding.
I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that (but then again, hard to prove a negative), and he still claims he did. Either way, like I said, I'm willing to concede on this point and agree that this is a lie, the only outright lie in my opinion that I have seen.
> It's a "petty insult" to say "I have evidence that you are a pedophile, arandomusername" to all the media that will print it? No, he had no evidence. In fact he scrambled after this to hire a private investigator to try to find some.
It's petty insult because the other dude first said his submarine thing is useless or whatever (while the lead diver actually asked him to continue working on it). So he fired back, hence petty insult.
> Musk is literally signing documents being sent to DMVs saying that FSD "this year" is "not an engineering reality".
Show me a document that Musk signed, that says FSD not reality this year & a quote from Elon in similar timeframe suggesting FSD that year.
> At some point you lose any credibility
Yes he lost credibility when it comes to promising things. If he said Tesla $25k next year, you would be fully in the right not to believe that. But it is not the same as saying Tesla is working on a $25k car when not working on it.
> That was a lie. Musk reinstated thousands of banned accounts two weeks after that tweet, with no content moderation council in sight (which to this day has not been set up).
Sure, but if we give him benefit of the doubt could have just been change of plans. I don't believe he tweeted that while knowing he will not set it up.
> 33 days later: "Tesla sells $272M in Bitcoin from orders."
Where's the "from orders" part? Tesla bought $1.5B worth of Bitcoin before that, perhaps they are selling some from that "investment"?
https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/02/08/tesla-invests-1...
I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that (but then again, hard to prove a negative), and he still claims he did. Either way, like I said, I'm willing to concede on this point and agree that this is a lie, the only outright lie in my opinion that I have seen.
> It's a "petty insult" to say "I have evidence that you are a pedophile, arandomusername" to all the media that will print it? No, he had no evidence. In fact he scrambled after this to hire a private investigator to try to find some.
It's petty insult because the other dude first said his submarine thing is useless or whatever (while the lead diver actually asked him to continue working on it). So he fired back, hence petty insult.
> Musk is literally signing documents being sent to DMVs saying that FSD "this year" is "not an engineering reality".
Show me a document that Musk signed, that says FSD not reality this year & a quote from Elon in similar timeframe suggesting FSD that year.
> At some point you lose any credibility
Yes he lost credibility when it comes to promising things. If he said Tesla $25k next year, you would be fully in the right not to believe that. But it is not the same as saying Tesla is working on a $25k car when not working on it.
> That was a lie. Musk reinstated thousands of banned accounts two weeks after that tweet, with no content moderation council in sight (which to this day has not been set up).
Sure, but if we give him benefit of the doubt could have just been change of plans. I don't believe he tweeted that while knowing he will not set it up.
> 33 days later: "Tesla sells $272M in Bitcoin from orders."
Where's the "from orders" part? Tesla bought $1.5B worth of Bitcoin before that, perhaps they are selling some from that "investment"?
https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/02/08/tesla-invests-1...
>> It wasn't a potential lie. He _had not_ secured funding.
> I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that (but then again, hard to prove a negative)
The SEC has:
https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2018-226
> Sure, but if we give him benefit of the doubt could have just been change of plans.
He's lost the benefit of the doubt by so frequently being dishonest, but in any case: saying you're going to do something, then choosing not to do it, makes you a liar.
> I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that (but then again, hard to prove a negative)
The SEC has:
https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2018-226
> Sure, but if we give him benefit of the doubt could have just been change of plans.
He's lost the benefit of the doubt by so frequently being dishonest, but in any case: saying you're going to do something, then choosing not to do it, makes you a liar.
> Musk and Tesla have agreed to settle the charges against them without admitting or denying the SEC’s allegations
> He's lost the benefit of the doubt by so frequently being dishonest
But so far it's down to two, tesla private and twitter committee. Hardly frequently being dishonest.
> He's lost the benefit of the doubt by so frequently being dishonest
But so far it's down to two, tesla private and twitter committee. Hardly frequently being dishonest.
How many frauds does it take to make that conclusion? Just one will suffice for most of us.
"Down to two" according to who?
Digging into this one, first:
> It's petty insult because the other dude first said his submarine thing is useless or whatever
Being blunt, uh, "so fucking what"? So someone says your idea is not useful, and your response is to blaze to the media that you have _evidence_ of _actual criminal behavior_ of a heinous nature?
That's not petty insults in anybody's world, no matter what they say about your submarine.
> It's petty insult because the other dude first said his submarine thing is useless or whatever
Being blunt, uh, "so fucking what"? So someone says your idea is not useful, and your response is to blaze to the media that you have _evidence_ of _actual criminal behavior_ of a heinous nature?
That's not petty insults in anybody's world, no matter what they say about your submarine.
Your rephrasing of what's been said to lessen the impact is not appreciated.
He didn't tell him his idea is not useful, he told him “stick his submarine where it hurts”. Elon fired back. Hence petty insult.
He didn't tell him his idea is not useful, he told him “stick his submarine where it hurts”. Elon fired back. Hence petty insult.
You still stubbornly fail to see how going to the media with the claim that you have actual evidence of felony criminal behavior is not just a "petty insult", no matter what someone said to you to begin with.
And let's be really real for a moment, Elon was as concerned about making himself a hero and savior and inserting himself in a situation that was time and resource critical, in a way that could actually have diverted progress AWAY from the rescue as anything else, and he did so by firing off the first idea that came into his head with zero inkling of its viability (because any more than 30 seconds critical thinking with a look at the cave map would show that there was ZERO chance this thing would get even a fraction of a distance towards anyone in the cave system), but figured "the world needs to hear from me now".
In your eyes, someone saying something vaguely insulting to you means you should feel free to go to the media or their employer and say "XYZ is a criminal who does abhorrent things, and I have proof", and that's a fair response to an insulting comment to you. That's one fairly small step away from SWATing someone.
I don't feel its tenable to continue a debate given that wide a definitional gap.
And let's be really real for a moment, Elon was as concerned about making himself a hero and savior and inserting himself in a situation that was time and resource critical, in a way that could actually have diverted progress AWAY from the rescue as anything else, and he did so by firing off the first idea that came into his head with zero inkling of its viability (because any more than 30 seconds critical thinking with a look at the cave map would show that there was ZERO chance this thing would get even a fraction of a distance towards anyone in the cave system), but figured "the world needs to hear from me now".
In your eyes, someone saying something vaguely insulting to you means you should feel free to go to the media or their employer and say "XYZ is a criminal who does abhorrent things, and I have proof", and that's a fair response to an insulting comment to you. That's one fairly small step away from SWATing someone.
I don't feel its tenable to continue a debate given that wide a definitional gap.
If someone hurts your feelings, libel and slander are neither "firing back" nor justified.
Yeah, 'the diver displeased me' doesn't make retaliatory lies not lies.
He’s a talented and intelligent engineer. It’s hard to see a world where he gets the “self-driving by end of year” thing wrong, like, four years in a row, but is still operating in good faith when he sends out the tweet for the fifth year.
If instead of using the word “lies” to refer to his statements, we instead used the words “unreliable and deliberately misleading”, would you be more on board?
If instead of using the word “lies” to refer to his statements, we instead used the words “unreliable and deliberately misleading”, would you be more on board?
> world where he gets the “self-driving by end of year” thing wrong, like, four years in a row
Four?
This will be the NINTH year in a row we've been promised "FSD this year, for reals", even as his Directors tell the DMV that "FSD this year is not an engineering reality".
Four?
This will be the NINTH year in a row we've been promised "FSD this year, for reals", even as his Directors tell the DMV that "FSD this year is not an engineering reality".
This is a great question. Apropos of nothing it is important to proactively ask for the definition of lies be adjusted to exclude a large portion of his public statements, which is a very normal thing to do when discussing anyone’s honesty.
That aside here is a cool website I’ve found
https://elonmusk.today/
That aside here is a cool website I’ve found
https://elonmusk.today/
> And let's not consider optimistic goals as lying
It's no longer "optimism" when you've been telling the same lie for 10 years:
https://motherfrunker.ca/fsd/
His own self imposed deadlines were never met, even when he repeatedly changed them to new deadlines. Tesla's "full self-driving" is not and never has been full self-driving.
It's no longer "optimism" when you've been telling the same lie for 10 years:
https://motherfrunker.ca/fsd/
His own self imposed deadlines were never met, even when he repeatedly changed them to new deadlines. Tesla's "full self-driving" is not and never has been full self-driving.
Full self-driving
Yeah, what should be wild to them is that a CEO of a major company has washed their credibility so badly that their word isn't worth much more than a rumor is
If you follow Musk and Tesla for some time, you should know that if there was even a slightest inaccuracy in Reuters claims, Musk would already be filling a 'thermonuclear lawsuit'.
The fact that he just says 'Reuters is lying' means that they are 100% right.
The fact that he just says 'Reuters is lying' means that they are 100% right.
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The man has lied and mislead numerous times, kind of hard to take his word on anything
He’s been wrong about self driving timeline a lot but do you really think he doesn’t believe it himself? I feel like this is actually typical of ambitious engineering projects, they are always over time and budget and whoever proposed it almost always turns out to have been over optimistic. I have been in this position myself a bunch of times, albeit at a much smaller scale of course.
Reuters has become a propaganda arm. They have no credibility.
Here is Musk's credibility as the owner of a media company: https://mashable.com/article/elon-musk-x-twitter-ai-chatbot-...
Speaking of claiming things without proof...
Elon Musk didn't even deny the claims. He just released Ad Hominem.
It'd be far more believable if Elon Musk could say _where_ Reuters was lying. But he's being vague because he knows he can't get specific without giving away the truth.
It seems clear to me that the truth is something that Elon Musk doesn't want to say in public. No one just responds "You're Lying" in today's environment. People say *specific* things like "Model 2 is still on track for a release in 2026", or other specific kind of statement.
The "Reuters is lying" post from Elon Musk is hilariously bad even at face value.
It'd be far more believable if Elon Musk could say _where_ Reuters was lying. But he's being vague because he knows he can't get specific without giving away the truth.
It seems clear to me that the truth is something that Elon Musk doesn't want to say in public. No one just responds "You're Lying" in today's environment. People say *specific* things like "Model 2 is still on track for a release in 2026", or other specific kind of statement.
The "Reuters is lying" post from Elon Musk is hilariously bad even at face value.
I'm very pleased with my 2018 Prius Prime. It only has about a 25 mile electric range, but I have short commute to work so it works out well in my case. Most of my driving is in electric mode and the car is very responsive with quick acceleration. When the car switches to gas I'm reminded that it's a Prius, not a sports car, but it's worth it for me. I refill the tank maybe once every three or four months. It's one of the cleanest cars on the road.