The Internet in Greece(greekanalyst.substack.com)
greekanalyst.substack.com
The Internet in Greece
https://greekanalyst.substack.com/p/the-internet-in-greece
56 comments
We do enjoy the simple pleasures of life more than other countries - sometimes too much perhaps. :-)
The problem with the internet in Greece is fundamentally a combo of bad infrastructure (due to belated investment), high taxes (on internet services) and terrible market dynamics (an oligopolistic industry after intense consolidation).
If you are a tourist or a Greek on holiday, perhaps it's great to disconnect. But if your work depends on it, that's a very different story.
The problem with the internet in Greece is fundamentally a combo of bad infrastructure (due to belated investment), high taxes (on internet services) and terrible market dynamics (an oligopolistic industry after intense consolidation).
If you are a tourist or a Greek on holiday, perhaps it's great to disconnect. But if your work depends on it, that's a very different story.
"Those grapes look really sour, don't they?"
Ask all the younger Greeks that had to leave their country and come over to Germany what they think about their Internet.
Ask how many of them have a home-based job in the UK, Denmark or Germany, but feel they can not go back simply because they don't have a minimally decent internet infrastructure to be doing fully remote work.
Ask a small hotel owner in one of the islands about their plan of turning their property into a "hacker house" in the off-season.
Of course, it's not the only thing that is lacking in Greece. But I can guarantee you that is one of the things that is holding it back.
Ask all the younger Greeks that had to leave their country and come over to Germany what they think about their Internet.
Ask how many of them have a home-based job in the UK, Denmark or Germany, but feel they can not go back simply because they don't have a minimally decent internet infrastructure to be doing fully remote work.
Ask a small hotel owner in one of the islands about their plan of turning their property into a "hacker house" in the off-season.
Of course, it's not the only thing that is lacking in Greece. But I can guarantee you that is one of the things that is holding it back.
The situation in Greece is really dire if they think Germany's internet connectivity is much better than there.
Uh, perhaps I was too long away, perhaps I'm too old, but what's wrong with Internet connectivity in Germany?
I got here (town of less then 25k souls) 100Mbps (the least I could realistically chose) last year, RTT to nearest google server is 22ms (116ms to Amazon though). There's some commotion in town to get us each 1Gbps (which is IMHO absurd). Took a while to install it (partly due to history of the premise), but I don't think it has been down since I got it.
Honestly, if it is any worse than Internet in the S.F. Bay area, I haven't noticed it yet.
I got here (town of less then 25k souls) 100Mbps (the least I could realistically chose) last year, RTT to nearest google server is 22ms (116ms to Amazon though). There's some commotion in town to get us each 1Gbps (which is IMHO absurd). Took a while to install it (partly due to history of the premise), but I don't think it has been down since I got it.
Honestly, if it is any worse than Internet in the S.F. Bay area, I haven't noticed it yet.
it's not much better, but it's good enough to the point that is not a blocker.
100%. I get better internet here in a small town in the third world at the bottom of Africa than I did in Salamis (very short boat ride from Athens for non-Greek readers).
Of course, my experience has a 10+ year gap now, things have definitely grown in Greece as OP has highlighted in the post, but I remember still having 100+ ping while connecting to European servers. Nowadays from Cape Town I "only" hit 150.
Of course, my experience has a 10+ year gap now, things have definitely grown in Greece as OP has highlighted in the post, but I remember still having 100+ ping while connecting to European servers. Nowadays from Cape Town I "only" hit 150.
> Ask a small hotel owner in one of the islands about their plan of turning their property into a "hacker house" in the off-season.
Maybe instead they should look into making their hotels into "doctor house", or "teacher house" or generally "something affordable by public workers" so that people who move to the island to do their job can have a reasonable life without competing with north EU nomads for living space.
Maybe instead they should look into making their hotels into "doctor house", or "teacher house" or generally "something affordable by public workers" so that people who move to the island to do their job can have a reasonable life without competing with north EU nomads for living space.
You can not rent your property to a doctor or a teacher only in the off-season.
I’m not Greek, but I hear/read this kind of argument made about Italians as well. No, Southern Europeans are not noble savages, they want and, arguably, need good infrastructures, which include phone and internet connections, exactly like the Northerner.
Putting aside for a second whether there's some truth to the stereotype or not, we truly live in strange times when description of a culture that values family life, the outdoors, good food and leisure over working at your phone at 2 am is automatically taken as an insult or provokes comparison to noble savages.
Please elaborate on how "maybe they don't need good infrastructure" can be taken positively. It is, at best, deeply patronizing.
The insult is in thinking that they somehow don't "need" material things just because they have so many other good things going in their life.
The person that doesn’t need modern infrastructure because they are at peace with nature is literally the noble savage
Enjoying nature doesn't mean you don't need a good internet connection.
It's 2024, internet is not used only for Netflix, but is a must have in our daily lives
It's 2024, internet is not used only for Netflix, but is a must have in our daily lives
Nice sentiments, but the problem with the Internet in Greece is a runaway oligopoly of three telco carriers and a "business-friendly"(one set of sarcasm quotes doesn't feel enough in this case) government that won't bring down the hammer of regulation on it. No lofty ideals here.
Greeks are avid mobile phone and social media users, evidently higher than many of the tourists
Also , please don't confuse what the tourist guides tell you about greece with reality. Greeks are normal people with normal anxieties and ambitions as everywhere. The Lazy lifestyle trope is somethign that s good for tourism ads, but not a way of life.
Also , please don't confuse what the tourist guides tell you about greece with reality. Greeks are normal people with normal anxieties and ambitions as everywhere. The Lazy lifestyle trope is somethign that s good for tourism ads, but not a way of life.
Greece is nice for tourists, but living here is quite different. Western living cost with Balkan salaries.
It has the highest number of work hours per week in any EU country. Many worker are only part time employees, but expected to work full time...
It has the highest number of work hours per week in any EU country. Many worker are only part time employees, but expected to work full time...
Nope, we want better internet connections but we can't get them. My parents' house still has DSL (around 10 Mbps), it makes it hard to work whenever I go there.
They are enjoying life a good deal while their lifestyle is being subsidized by the rest of Europe. Not sure if their young are as much because they had to leave the country to find employment elsewhere.
May I suggest you read the book "adults in the room". The author has his faults but the notion that any bank bailout and debt repackagings mean that the rest of the EU (cough, Germany) is subsidising Greece is deeply misguided. As I see it Greece is massively subsidising by taking the brunt of migrant crises, camps and humanitarian conundrums...
No problems enjoying the simple things in life - as long as it is not leant from the future generations who will not have the same benefits extended.
It's a shameless plug, but on topic, so I'll go for it... :)
Cloudflare Radar has a section on Internet quality that can show graphs per country and also at the ASN level. Here's what it shows for Greece:
https://radar.cloudflare.com/quality/gr
Cloudflare Radar has a section on Internet quality that can show graphs per country and also at the ASN level. Here's what it shows for Greece:
https://radar.cloudflare.com/quality/gr
Yes, the internet speeds in Greece are terrible and pricing looks inversely proportional. It's as if people don't really care about technology at all.
I get all the island life and stuff, but really, trying to do real remote work from there in interactive terminals... not fun at all.
I get all the island life and stuff, but really, trying to do real remote work from there in interactive terminals... not fun at all.
Most people aren’t doing work in interactive terminals thoufh
Every summer without failure Vodafone's network drops the ball, right around the time we need it the most. They'll offer like unlimited data on you phone till it gets fixed or something like that. Last summer they took close to 40 days to get it fixed in our area.
This summer, the first day we noticed the connection getting spotty we bit the bullet and got a Starlink. Smooth sailing ever since, like holy shit what an upgrade. Chatting a little more with a client that does various installations in tourist places, hotels and stuff, he told he's been basically setting up Starlinks everywhere for the past 6 months or so.
This summer, the first day we noticed the connection getting spotty we bit the bullet and got a Starlink. Smooth sailing ever since, like holy shit what an upgrade. Chatting a little more with a client that does various installations in tourist places, hotels and stuff, he told he's been basically setting up Starlinks everywhere for the past 6 months or so.
As with everything in the greek economy the problem is lack of competition. There's too much coordination in price increases, and too little investment from those companies. They all share the basic infrastructure that is set by OTE SA (the old state-owned telecommunications company)
Same goes for banking, which is exorbitantly expensive and anticompetitive (aided by state laws that make banking services mandatory for businesses).
Unless the economy opens up to foreign compeition which will drive prices down and services up, it will remain a soviet-like small state
Same goes for banking, which is exorbitantly expensive and anticompetitive (aided by state laws that make banking services mandatory for businesses).
Unless the economy opens up to foreign compeition which will drive prices down and services up, it will remain a soviet-like small state
Yes, lack of true competition is a big problem.
Unfortunately, all relevant watchdogs are unable or unwilling to ensure the proper functioning of the market, which is free only on paper for some key industries (banking, internet/mobile services, supermarkets, ferries, energy, etc.).
Unfortunately, all relevant watchdogs are unable or unwilling to ensure the proper functioning of the market, which is free only on paper for some key industries (banking, internet/mobile services, supermarkets, ferries, energy, etc.).
When I finally got to Lyon at a random Airbnb my iCloud backups started catching up with gusto.
It reminded me of all the restaurant toilets in Athens that instructed you to throw your used toilet paper in the trash and not down the antiquated drainpipes. No blame no shame. It is what it is in one of the oldest cities.
Tokyo used to be like this too in 2014.
Starlink must be making a killing in places like this.
It reminded me of all the restaurant toilets in Athens that instructed you to throw your used toilet paper in the trash and not down the antiquated drainpipes. No blame no shame. It is what it is in one of the oldest cities.
Tokyo used to be like this too in 2014.
Starlink must be making a killing in places like this.
It's pretty decent, actually... if you use Starlink. At least in Chalkidiki, it's terrible! There's no 5G anywhere, not even 4G in most places. Wired internet is a complete joke.
Meanwhile, it's good, because you can really rest and enjoy Greece! Yeah, if you forgot, you can post the photos and videos later!
Meanwhile, it's good, because you can really rest and enjoy Greece! Yeah, if you forgot, you can post the photos and videos later!
Looks like the average connection is somewhere between 10 and 30 Mbps?
Seems enough for browsing the internet, online banking, emails, some social media, and watching videos in standard definition.
That sounds like enough for the average person. :)
Seems enough for browsing the internet, online banking, emails, some social media, and watching videos in standard definition.
That sounds like enough for the average person. :)
Not sure how you worked that out from the most terrible map I've seen where everything is a "slightly greener shade of green" to disambiguate it from the other green bits, but kudos!
When your internet speed map looks like a topographical map, you need to adjust your colours.
When your internet speed map looks like a topographical map, you need to adjust your colours.
The average never tells the full story, it can be heavily impacted by a few order-of-magnitude outliers.
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%salesquota.starlink.select(c=> c.country.name =="greece" )%
Starlink terminals are a great indicator for low trust societies
Starlink terminals are a great indicator for low trust societies
I am married to a Greek and spend part of my year working from a very rural Greek village in the mountains (more goats than people). I also have travelled a fair bit around Greece, e.g. North South, East and west, from Crete to Thessaloniki, and from Corfu to Skiathos.
My experience is pretty positive overall. Internet speeds are fairly fast, not exceptional and not cheap, but widely available. The interesting thing with the internet is how there can be a certain envy when it comes to internet speed, both with individuals and between countries. But even as someone who has a >1Gb internet connection in the UK, I don't have a big problem changing to slower speeds in Greece. Ultimately, when you have good broadband coverage, there's a certain law of diminishing returns to increasing the speed. I totally don't need 1Gbps speeds, I do fine with Pappous' ~45Mbps VDSL and actually the house we use when we visit has only a 15Mbps link to my father in law's house. My wife and I work from there, and when the internet works, it's just enough. It's too easy for me to say "ah, but you don't need gigabit" but lets also be pragmatic and ask if Greeks all need superfast broadband? Probably not.
I do have problems with the broadband reliability in the mountains of Greece, or rather my father in law does, we know there's a bad line-card but getting OTE to permanently sort it out and not just reboot the line-card when we complain is annoying. One day they'll actually fix the line card and we'll get reliable VDSL, again, in a village with more goats than people.
One thing that annoys me more than anything is that the 5G tariffs could definitely be more competitive. Instead of borrowing my FIL's broadband using a questionable WiFi link, I'd like broadband. Getting a VDSL connection for a holiday home is relatively expensive and for some ridiculous reason, OTE don't want to run the cable anyway. So, 5G? Except I want continuous connectivity through the year, but when we're there I want a lot of data just for a month at a time. Nope, all or nothing. And the PAYG tariffs don't accumulate allowances each month, so I can't get a 5GB tariff, save up the GB allowance to use at Easter/Summer/Christmas/etc). The PAYG tariffs are weirdly now just subscriptions without an annual commitment and flexible payment options.
We looked at Starlink, but again, as this is a holiday home but one which is connected, I don't want to pay full-rate all the time, but there's not a way of turning the connection down, to say 4Mbps, when you don't want full service. Same as the incumbent broadband providers, they need to recognise that a holiday home is now an IoT home and provide something more than on/off provisions.
One day I might like to work on infrastructure in Greece, perhaps I'll get a job there one day or start a business there one day.
My experience is pretty positive overall. Internet speeds are fairly fast, not exceptional and not cheap, but widely available. The interesting thing with the internet is how there can be a certain envy when it comes to internet speed, both with individuals and between countries. But even as someone who has a >1Gb internet connection in the UK, I don't have a big problem changing to slower speeds in Greece. Ultimately, when you have good broadband coverage, there's a certain law of diminishing returns to increasing the speed. I totally don't need 1Gbps speeds, I do fine with Pappous' ~45Mbps VDSL and actually the house we use when we visit has only a 15Mbps link to my father in law's house. My wife and I work from there, and when the internet works, it's just enough. It's too easy for me to say "ah, but you don't need gigabit" but lets also be pragmatic and ask if Greeks all need superfast broadband? Probably not.
I do have problems with the broadband reliability in the mountains of Greece, or rather my father in law does, we know there's a bad line-card but getting OTE to permanently sort it out and not just reboot the line-card when we complain is annoying. One day they'll actually fix the line card and we'll get reliable VDSL, again, in a village with more goats than people.
One thing that annoys me more than anything is that the 5G tariffs could definitely be more competitive. Instead of borrowing my FIL's broadband using a questionable WiFi link, I'd like broadband. Getting a VDSL connection for a holiday home is relatively expensive and for some ridiculous reason, OTE don't want to run the cable anyway. So, 5G? Except I want continuous connectivity through the year, but when we're there I want a lot of data just for a month at a time. Nope, all or nothing. And the PAYG tariffs don't accumulate allowances each month, so I can't get a 5GB tariff, save up the GB allowance to use at Easter/Summer/Christmas/etc). The PAYG tariffs are weirdly now just subscriptions without an annual commitment and flexible payment options.
We looked at Starlink, but again, as this is a holiday home but one which is connected, I don't want to pay full-rate all the time, but there's not a way of turning the connection down, to say 4Mbps, when you don't want full service. Same as the incumbent broadband providers, they need to recognise that a holiday home is now an IoT home and provide something more than on/off provisions.
One day I might like to work on infrastructure in Greece, perhaps I'll get a job there one day or start a business there one day.
I am going to write it from my regulated italian 10gbit/s ftth for 25 euros p/m.
Or from my 5G unlimited data for 9 euros p/m plan.
The market will balance itself and leaving it free is always better, go neoliberalism!
Or from my 5G unlimited data for 9 euros p/m plan.
The market will balance itself and leaving it free is always better, go neoliberalism!
I'm moving to Italy around the end of the year to the Cuneo region, i'd really love to know who your providers are, I haven't seen any plans as great as those.
Well now the 10gb is 35, guess they are over the launch offer, but still convenient and every now and then they make some temporary offers (that’s how I got it) https://www.tim.it/fisso-e-mobile/fibra-e-adsl/fibra-wifi-ca...
When you have Tim at home you subscribe to https://www.tim.it/fisso-e-mobile/mobile/5g-famiglia and add the number to the landline family of numbers to get unlimited internet
And Tim is the main isp in Italy with best coverage and speed
When you have Tim at home you subscribe to https://www.tim.it/fisso-e-mobile/mobile/5g-famiglia and add the number to the landline family of numbers to get unlimited internet
And Tim is the main isp in Italy with best coverage and speed
“regulated italian”
“go neoliberalism”
Did you forget an “/s”?
“go neoliberalism”
Did you forget an “/s”?
I'm in France but these prices are coherent with what is available here. I don't think they are being sarcastic, I'm guessing prices are not that good over by you? :-)
My comment was not about the price but the fact that they say it’s regulated in Italy and then they say “go neoliberalism”. Got confused.
Updated my comment to reflect that.
Updated my comment to reflect that.
No. Prices are that low in Italy.
No, I wrote 10gbit/s
As a regular tourist visiting Greece the slow internet in tourist areas is "a feature, not a bug" for me. It allows me to stay connected, download during the night some podcast shows and stream music. Video is painfully slow which motivates me to hang out with people or read books. Lovely.
It's fine for you because you get to leave the country as your vacation ends. That's a terrible take for the rest of us who arent so lucky.
- Sent from my phone, which is glued to the window because it's the only spot where i can get enough bars for my mobile connection. I 'm waiting for the landline (50mbps DSL) for 4 months.
- Sent from my phone, which is glued to the window because it's the only spot where i can get enough bars for my mobile connection. I 'm waiting for the landline (50mbps DSL) for 4 months.
I recalled the big WiFi sign in the middle of the Torres del Paine trek. When you come closer it says in spanish: "no wifi, enjoy the nature"
But presumably they want to have some advanced industry of their own and not just be a theme park for tourists?
I mean at the moment the choice for young Greeks is basically government work, hospitality, or move abroad.
I mean at the moment the choice for young Greeks is basically government work, hospitality, or move abroad.
There are some occasionally good opportunities in Thessaloniki and Athens in IT, however since covid, I think it would be great for the local economy if we could get more remote based work on the islands, besides the tourist based economy.
It isn't easy, though.
It isn't easy, though.
Yep.
The author of the post thoroughly covers the Greek startup & tech ecosystem.
It's growing, impressively so considering the last decade, but is going to be hitting limits like these internet speed issues if it's going to keep growing.
The author of the post thoroughly covers the Greek startup & tech ecosystem.
It's growing, impressively so considering the last decade, but is going to be hitting limits like these internet speed issues if it's going to keep growing.
That's the impression I've got when I traveled to Greece and I've seen far less Greeks with their noses stuck in their mobile phones than tourists.