Optimizing Beer Glass Shapes to Minimize Heat Transfer – New Results(arxiv.org)
arxiv.org
Optimizing Beer Glass Shapes to Minimize Heat Transfer – New Results
http://www.arxiv.org/pdf/2410.12043
81 comments
While great at keeping beer cold, the frosted surface creates tons of nucleation points for CO2 in the beer, overfoaming it in the process. And the coldness lowers volatility of aromatic compounds in the beer.
A freshly rinsed glass with a slower pour would produce tighter foam and the best temperature for enjoyment. See the Czech side pull taps: https://breweriesinpa.com/the-side-pull-tap-what-is-it-and-w...
A freshly rinsed glass with a slower pour would produce tighter foam and the best temperature for enjoyment. See the Czech side pull taps: https://breweriesinpa.com/the-side-pull-tap-what-is-it-and-w...
The thing is, I kinda want the foam to happen in the glass and not in my belly
"Americano" NF glass' inner surface is smooth, why would it create nucleation points?
Ice cold pilsener is a hallmark of beer drinking in Brazil, a mostly tropical nation where one wants its drinks to be as refreshing as nature allows.
Ice cold pilsener is a hallmark of beer drinking in Brazil, a mostly tropical nation where one wants its drinks to be as refreshing as nature allows.
They were talking about frost build-up from freezing a large stein glass. If any frost gets onto the inner surface of a glass, it creates nucleation points.
But wouldn't that frost melt immediately upon contact with the (relatively) warmer beer?
Maybe foam creation is also immediate, and wins that race to some extent?
I sure was, thanks for noticing
If you're drinking beer quickly from a small 19 cl glass, then beer going flat is less of a worry
But it means you need more frequent attention from the server or bartender, which the pub owner won't like because it means hiring more servers. That's why the ridiculously enormous beer glasses (20+ ounces) are so common.
Good for the profitability of the bar, but you end up drinking half of it warm.
Good for the profitability of the bar, but you end up drinking half of it warm.
More frequent attention is a solved problem: a server walks around with a tray of filled glasses and always replaces empty glasses, except if they are covered. That way, the communication overhead is reduced, and a roundtrip per table back to the bar is no longer required. With that, the number of servers can also be kept to an efficient minimum.
Obviously, this works only if a very small selection of beverages are served.
Obviously, this works only if a very small selection of beverages are served.
Any experienced Stein drinker will attest that the solution is to drink it at the same pace as you would a smaller beverage receptacle.
Down in one?
Back in college when I had a kegerator, we kept the large glass steins in the freezer. The problem with that is the beer would freeze slightly and you end up with little bits of ice floating in your beer. Plus your hands get cold, which is a bummer in the winter in Montana.
This calls for something a bit like the ridiculous fridge innovation: the butter warmer.
‘In this environment we are paying to cool, let’s have a warming element.’
‘In this environment we are paying to cool, let’s have a warming element.’
Is this a thing? My quick search isn't showing anything like that, the closest is the butter container, which is designed to be a bit warmer than the rest of the fridge. There's no heat element involved though.
This seems to be a thing that has changed or is changing.
“Butter conditioners: These used to be a standard feature of New Zealand fridges, but they seem to have gone the way of the dinosaurs. We think that’s a good thing. Butter conditioners lower a fridge’s energy efficiency, and they don’t necessarily keep butter at a useful temperature anyway. If you want to keep butter a bit warmer, use the dairy compartment in the door.”
https://www.consumer.org.nz/products/fridges/guide
“Butter conditioners: These used to be a standard feature of New Zealand fridges, but they seem to have gone the way of the dinosaurs. We think that’s a good thing. Butter conditioners lower a fridge’s energy efficiency, and they don’t necessarily keep butter at a useful temperature anyway. If you want to keep butter a bit warmer, use the dairy compartment in the door.”
https://www.consumer.org.nz/products/fridges/guide
Huh, it seems to have mostly been a thing in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand. That'd explain why I've never heard of it, in the US we only had the compartment.
"Nadir" is a pretty good name for a product that aims to minimize something!
Nominative determinism[1] strikes again!
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominative_determinism
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominative_determinism
Might have missed this in the paper, but this is also the main reason some pilsner glasses are extremely basic. When the beer is warm, you drank it too slowly. A boerke (BE) or vaasje (NL) is an example: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaasje
Brazilians have a lot of techniques for always having the coldest beer. These are all things that are common among the population, even socially expected:
- Have a freezer specifically for beer in the home (kept at -2 to -3 celsius).
- Beer rarely comes in liter bottles (compared to neighboring countries at least), usually in cans of 330 to 500 ml. This minimizes the amount of beer you take out of the freezer at once.
- Once out of the freezer, the container is put in an insulating sleeve (this is very, very common).
- Several people are served at the same time from the same small container, into small drinking glasses such as the one shown in the picture. Drinking straight from the can is also common, but remember, cans have insulating sleeves.
All of these strategies ensures that the time that the beer has spent warming up before you drink it is minimized, without you having to worry too much about it (besides having to go many times to the freezer to fetch a new one, which is why the beer freezer is usually very close to the social area).
Brazilian beer is usually very weak (similar to American light beer, maybe even more so), and if drunk anything but very, very cold it's just disgusting. Brazilians will not accept beer that is not ice cold, unless the situation is really desperate.
- Have a freezer specifically for beer in the home (kept at -2 to -3 celsius).
- Beer rarely comes in liter bottles (compared to neighboring countries at least), usually in cans of 330 to 500 ml. This minimizes the amount of beer you take out of the freezer at once.
- Once out of the freezer, the container is put in an insulating sleeve (this is very, very common).
- Several people are served at the same time from the same small container, into small drinking glasses such as the one shown in the picture. Drinking straight from the can is also common, but remember, cans have insulating sleeves.
All of these strategies ensures that the time that the beer has spent warming up before you drink it is minimized, without you having to worry too much about it (besides having to go many times to the freezer to fetch a new one, which is why the beer freezer is usually very close to the social area).
Brazilian beer is usually very weak (similar to American light beer, maybe even more so), and if drunk anything but very, very cold it's just disgusting. Brazilians will not accept beer that is not ice cold, unless the situation is really desperate.
The first time I visited Brazil, we gringos each ordered the large glass bottle of beer from a beach kioskue and drank from it. We quickly learned that was not the right way. The insulation sleeve and shared bottle is a much better way. It is more social too.
Saúde! (I don't drink anymore but cheers with my Brazilian coffee!)
Saúde! (I don't drink anymore but cheers with my Brazilian coffee!)
A fraternity I rushed managed to execute a very similar strategy on a two-four of Natural Light.
"The American glass, also known as the 'Nadir Figueiredo® glass', due to the family name of the first industry to manufacture it, contains a rather low volume (190 ml) and is exceptionally ugly (Fig. 8)."
Glad to see this one mentioned. In fact, it is so popular that it has become a standard unit of measure in Brazilian recipes. The reason it is so popular is because most beer sold in Brazil comes in 600 ml bottles to be shared by everyone at the table. Beer drinking in Brazil is mostly a social activity.
Glad to see this one mentioned. In fact, it is so popular that it has become a standard unit of measure in Brazilian recipes. The reason it is so popular is because most beer sold in Brazil comes in 600 ml bottles to be shared by everyone at the table. Beer drinking in Brazil is mostly a social activity.
I grew up finding those glasses the most horrible thing. Even though they were always popular, they became fashionable recently when new sizes were introduced.
I somehow started to find they kind of beautiful when I worked at a company that only had pint-sized American glasses at their office. Now most cups in my house have this design. They are dirty cheap and very easy to replace.
I somehow started to find they kind of beautiful when I worked at a company that only had pint-sized American glasses at their office. Now most cups in my house have this design. They are dirty cheap and very easy to replace.
> The reason it is so popular is because most beer sold in Brazil comes in 600 ml bottles to be shared by everyone at the table.
Hum... I'm not sure.
I believe the reason it is so popular is that it is cheap and widely distributed.
But also, none of the other solutions on the article are good enough to support large temperature differences. What matches very well with it being the "daily" glass, while tulips are more refined, "nightly" ones.
Oh, and it also has a viable size for coffee, water, and cahcaça (where usually only the bottom is filled).
There is also a smaller version of the tulip that is popular South of São Paulo, where other companies got more reach than Nadir Figuereido.
Hum... I'm not sure.
I believe the reason it is so popular is that it is cheap and widely distributed.
But also, none of the other solutions on the article are good enough to support large temperature differences. What matches very well with it being the "daily" glass, while tulips are more refined, "nightly" ones.
Oh, and it also has a viable size for coffee, water, and cahcaça (where usually only the bottom is filled).
There is also a smaller version of the tulip that is popular South of São Paulo, where other companies got more reach than Nadir Figuereido.
From the article:
> It maintains the beer cold through the most primitive of the processes: due to its low capacity, the beer is consumed so quickly it has no time to get warm.
> It maintains the beer cold through the most primitive of the processes: due to its low capacity, the beer is consumed so quickly it has no time to get warm.
The brewery I work at will serve our Kölsch in Stange glasses (7 oz pour) for a similar reason.
https://beerswithmandy.com/beer-everything-blog/what-is-a-st...
https://beerswithmandy.com/beer-everything-blog/what-is-a-st...
Which as the link describes is the traditional glass used for serving Kölsch in Köln. When I visited the typical service was to have servers constantly circulating with kranz trays, delivering cold beers every few minutes, so that your drink was always cold and full.
I always thought of that shape as the Luminarc working glass design. Which I assumed came from the Duralex Picardie design. Are these all related, and if so how and in what order of lineage?
(I think the year of design goes 48 luminarc, 54 picardie, 56 nadir)
(I think the year of design goes 48 luminarc, 54 picardie, 56 nadir)
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copo_americano
Looks like it's adapted from the US model of a popular Soviet glass.
Looks like it's adapted from the US model of a popular Soviet glass.
Interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faceted_glass
Measuring fluid volume in cups has always been irritating to me. Even worse is measuring flour or other non-liquid ingredients.
What’s wrong with grams?
What’s wrong with grams?
What's wrong with grams as a measure of fluid volume? It's not a measure of volume, for starters.
That hasn’t stopped us with all the other stupid measures we use. Do you prefer metric or US cups?
Set the scales to ml if you want, most do it.
It’s a hell of a lot more accurate than measuring cups.
Set the scales to ml if you want, most do it.
It’s a hell of a lot more accurate than measuring cups.
> "is exceptionally ugly"
this must be one of the most outrageous things that I ever read in regard to beer
this must be one of the most outrageous things that I ever read in regard to beer
Would it help if I told you I read that as regarding specifically the glass, not the beer in the glass?
Although academically interesting, it seems practically useless due to this disclosure in the conclusion:
> Finally, neither radiative heat transfer nor conduction due to hand contact with the glass was considered.
So, just letting the beer sit on the counter colder.
> Finally, neither radiative heat transfer nor conduction due to hand contact with the glass was considered.
So, just letting the beer sit on the counter colder.
Future research. If you're interested in funding a bunch of grad students to sit at a table holding beers, I'm sure they'd be happy to talk.
Conduction from hand contact can be eliminated with a handle.
yeah a stem or a handle is necessary to keep your grimy warm hands out of direct contact with the container
I guess it really depends on the authors' definitions of "beer".
for me, it depends entirely on what is in the glass as to what the correct temperature profile and shape is. for instance, a nice imperial stout should warm slightly before being drank, so having a glass with a large open mouth for aroma and good heat transfer from the hands is preferred.
when drinking from cask, the beer is served on the warmer side, and a nice nonic works well (the article didn't go into it, but each of these glasses has a formal name, not "imperial pint" or "my favorite"), since it also opens up the aroma and keeps the temperature on the warmer side.
an IPA, generally you'd want to drink not completely cold as well.
in fact, it seems that the only beers that get better as they get colder are lagers/pilsners.
for me, it depends entirely on what is in the glass as to what the correct temperature profile and shape is. for instance, a nice imperial stout should warm slightly before being drank, so having a glass with a large open mouth for aroma and good heat transfer from the hands is preferred.
when drinking from cask, the beer is served on the warmer side, and a nice nonic works well (the article didn't go into it, but each of these glasses has a formal name, not "imperial pint" or "my favorite"), since it also opens up the aroma and keeps the temperature on the warmer side.
an IPA, generally you'd want to drink not completely cold as well.
in fact, it seems that the only beers that get better as they get colder are lagers/pilsners.
I suspect that the glass for Pauwel Kwak is more or less ideal, based on this paper.
Only beer glass I’ve ever known (apart from yards) that can’t stand up on its own. Seemingly appropriate, given what a few Kwaks will do to you.
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://belgiancraftbeer...
Only beer glass I’ve ever known (apart from yards) that can’t stand up on its own. Seemingly appropriate, given what a few Kwaks will do to you.
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://belgiancraftbeer...
Can you settle a dispute for me? A friend and I were debating (and placed a bet!) on whether one is to drink by holding the wood handle or by removing the glass from the stand. I find a lot of disagreement about it, but no official source.
I’ve only ever taken the glass from the stand - holding the whole apparatus feels unworldly.
Also, as a gentlemanly rule, once you pick it up, you do not put it down until it’s empty.
Also, as a gentlemanly rule, once you pick it up, you do not put it down until it’s empty.
Isn't it a bit difficult to get the glass full of beer out of the handle without making a mess?
Somewhat, but then on the other hand when you are down to the last bit of beer in the spherical portion of the glass, you have to tilt the whole apparatus so much that the bulb starts to slip out of its wooden bowl. I nearly broke the glass this way because it toppled out.
Honestly the whole thing is a bit of a gimmick and it would probably work better if the glass had a flattened bottom. The beer is delicious though, IMO.
Honestly the whole thing is a bit of a gimmick and it would probably work better if the glass had a flattened bottom. The beer is delicious though, IMO.
I was a bit disappointed that the kwak glass didn't make an appearance here. Although I suppose the treatment of the thick bottom as being better insulating wins out over volume efficiency.
IDK, the spherical base minimises surface area for volume, and the narrow where it joins the sphere and then spreading neck inhibits circulation between the top and bottom portions of the vessel.
Or just use double-walled glasses like some of the ones made by Bodum [0]. We have a bunch of the Pavina glasses and they're great with cold (or hot liquids).
[0] https://www.bodum.com/us/en/coffee/mugs-cups-glasses
[0] https://www.bodum.com/us/en/coffee/mugs-cups-glasses
These look awesome. But they cost $10 compared to the 25c of the Nadir. The Nadir is also crazy strong.
For those who get annoyed being sent to a pdf download:
https://www.arxiv.org/abs/2410.12043
Such a noble effort warrants an Ig-Nobel prize. After all it's all for such an excellent cause.
Note #8: "Who drinks beer below 10 °C anyway?"
I was extremely confused by this note until I examined it in context. It turns out that 10 °C refers to the environmental temperature, not the beer serving temperature.
Been in Jokkmokk in the Winter Market once, I believe in the beer tent it was around zero, mild temperature for enjoying beer (outside it was -22C).
I think the coldest I've drank a beer was about -17C. Made memorable by going to finish my beer after talking for a few minutes and my lips briefly froze to the can. Plenty of people I know drink beer outside while and after skiing.
10c = 50F and this got me curious at which temperature the mountains turn blue on the Coors can [1]. Coors has apparently determined that 40F-48F (4.44C - 8.88C) is the perfect temperature for their swill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM3USopPZoA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM3USopPZoA
For beers like Coors I find the colder the better. You taste it less.
It hardly tastes of anything in the first place!
Lots of people in Scandinavia at the end of winter.
Well, at least not cold beer.
People in Brazil do. In fact, 10°C would make most Brazilians complain that the beer is too warm
Direct link to (one of) the optimal shape(s): https://arxiv.org/html/2410.12043v1/extracted/5929719/best_I...
1. Beer glass has to be optimized for ruggedness when washed many times.
2. Beer glass needs to be optimized for manufacturing and packing cost.
3. Numerical modeling is reknown for making elaborate suggestions for 1% improvements.
Heat transfer isn't an issue for most ales (maybe it's even a feature?). It matters more for lagers and stuff like kolsch. I actually like my ales to start coldish and end around room temp.
In addition to the interesting work done on heat transfer, i believe an important factor is the vertical height to base ratio. This would be simple proxy for the ease of tipping over. Some of the glasses considered are very tall in relation to their base diameter and expand in diameter towards the top of the glasses.
I’d go for the imperial pint glass, a very familiar shape and weight for me. Sample of 1 and I do live in Scotland where the ambient temperature rarely causes warming of the beer.
I’d go for the imperial pint glass, a very familiar shape and weight for me. Sample of 1 and I do live in Scotland where the ambient temperature rarely causes warming of the beer.
Is there a reason one would not consume beer from a stainless steel vacuum insulated tumbler?
With a well insulated container the shape could be selected to minimize tipping / sloshing / spilling.
With a well insulated container the shape could be selected to minimize tipping / sloshing / spilling.
The roughness of the surface ruins the foam of any beer I've tried to pour into a metal yeti- or stanley-style travel cup, which are otherwise excellent at keeping things hot or cold.
Yeah, I got myself Stanley beer mugs and "glasses" and they are a game changer for keeping your beverages cold. This is extremely useful on hot days but even on not so hot days it is outright amazing how cold the beer stays. If you like your beer very cold there is nothing better.
For longer beer drinking sessions, store in a double walled vacuum-sealed insulated bottle, of course.
[deleted]
Science.. is hard.. and to get datapooints.. BURP.. is even more difficult.. ANOTHER
Seriously though, the best practice from various south east asia countries is to freeze a large stein and insert the beer, while the stein itself holds the cold. 0.5h cool beer in tropical heat.
Seriously though, the best practice from various south east asia countries is to freeze a large stein and insert the beer, while the stein itself holds the cold. 0.5h cool beer in tropical heat.
Brilliant! I want to add a trick that I learned from my father in law, who keeps his heavy-bottom beer glasses in the freezer.