The world of Japanese snack bars(bbc.com)
bbc.com
The world of Japanese snack bars
https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20260116-inside-the-secret-world-of-japanese-snack-bars
96 comments
> Oddly only the French did understand the sentiment
French culture is a rare culture where shop owners won't be afraid to tell off/talk back at customers that don't show a basic level of politeness. You, as a customer, are in the shopkeeper's "home", so to speak, and you should behave accordingly. Someone who doesn't use the customary "bonjour/merci/au revoir" is likely to be met with some response like "tout d'abord, bonjour" ("first of all, hello"), or "et la politesse, alors?" ("what about politeness?").
(of course, people from older generations would be likely to say that these things are going away)
I'm French/American, raised across both countries, and even as a kid it shocked me that a customer in the US could get away with "I'll have a coke" as their only utterance to a waiter - no hello, please, thank you.
I suspect this is why the French have a reputation for rudeness. It's easy to understand why tourists from cultures where "the customer is king" would be shocked when they get told off for being loud/rude/inconsiderate.
(I've lived in Japan for a few years now, and ironically enough, I find Japanese customer service culture to be closer to that of the US than France - the customer is king, and while thankfully not too common, some Japanese customers will definitely abuse that dynamic. There's been a growing awareness and pushback on カスハラ, but it's a real thing, and is very cringe to witness)
French culture is a rare culture where shop owners won't be afraid to tell off/talk back at customers that don't show a basic level of politeness. You, as a customer, are in the shopkeeper's "home", so to speak, and you should behave accordingly. Someone who doesn't use the customary "bonjour/merci/au revoir" is likely to be met with some response like "tout d'abord, bonjour" ("first of all, hello"), or "et la politesse, alors?" ("what about politeness?").
(of course, people from older generations would be likely to say that these things are going away)
I'm French/American, raised across both countries, and even as a kid it shocked me that a customer in the US could get away with "I'll have a coke" as their only utterance to a waiter - no hello, please, thank you.
I suspect this is why the French have a reputation for rudeness. It's easy to understand why tourists from cultures where "the customer is king" would be shocked when they get told off for being loud/rude/inconsiderate.
(I've lived in Japan for a few years now, and ironically enough, I find Japanese customer service culture to be closer to that of the US than France - the customer is king, and while thankfully not too common, some Japanese customers will definitely abuse that dynamic. There's been a growing awareness and pushback on カスハラ, but it's a real thing, and is very cringe to witness)
> French culture is a rare culture where shop owners won't be afraid to tell off/talk back at customers that don't show a basic level of politeness.
My favorite French shop anecdote (I'm American): Went to a bakery in Paris. Tried to order "Un croissant, s'il vous plaît". Shopkeeper responded (in very lightly accented English) with "I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying". I wasn't mad or offended, in fact it's one of my favorite memories from the trip.
My favorite French shop anecdote (I'm American): Went to a bakery in Paris. Tried to order "Un croissant, s'il vous plaît". Shopkeeper responded (in very lightly accented English) with "I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying". I wasn't mad or offended, in fact it's one of my favorite memories from the trip.
The French's and their language is a funny one. We constantly get French tourists here in Spain who approach you and try to talk to you in French, assuming somehow because you live in the North of Spain of course you'd understand at least the basics of French.
I'm sure it happens in a lot of places around borders though, not sure that's unique to the French.
I'm sure it happens in a lot of places around borders though, not sure that's unique to the French.
Bonjour monsieur, je voudrais une eclair chocolate s'il vous plait is my number one French phrase. I can usually sell it. Maybe you needed the prefixes?
>as a kid it shocked me that a customer in the US could get away with "I'll have a coke" as their only utterance to a waiter - no hello, please, thank you.
As a Norwegian who's been visiting the US for quite a few times now (as we speak), I've always appreciated the "hello, please, thank you", but what really gets me are the incessant "how are you"s.
As a Norwegian who's been visiting the US for quite a few times now (as we speak), I've always appreciated the "hello, please, thank you", but what really gets me are the incessant "how are you"s.
I know what you mean. I once worked at a Berlin games company with many international and US colleagues. Even after three years, I still couldn't figure out why even people I barely knew greeted me with an enthusiastic "Hey [Name]! How are you?". It always felt like a very awkward handshake.
The first time that happened to me I went on a small rant about some minor health issues and the state of the world in general and that settled the conversation with an overseas colleague.
It was later that I found out that "how are you" is a perfectly valid answer to "how are you" and it still boggles my mind 20 years later.
It was later that I found out that "how are you" is a perfectly valid answer to "how are you" and it still boggles my mind 20 years later.
Haha, I had that same epiphany, also too late.
"how are you? No no, stop, I don't care"
It's very similar in German stores, at least in Berlin.
> due to Japan's funny zoning laws
Way better than what we have here in the US.
For those not familiar with them, the gist is that Japanese zoning defines what's basically a maximum nuisance level (from low-density residential, up to various levels of commercial operation, up to heavy industry), and anything up to that can be built in the given area. Plenty of 'residential' areas are broadly zoned as allowing up to light or medium commercial activity wherever an owner can put it.
Way better than what we have here in the US.
For those not familiar with them, the gist is that Japanese zoning defines what's basically a maximum nuisance level (from low-density residential, up to various levels of commercial operation, up to heavy industry), and anything up to that can be built in the given area. Plenty of 'residential' areas are broadly zoned as allowing up to light or medium commercial activity wherever an owner can put it.
It truly is, I recently read a great article about the coffee shops being run out of a room in people's homes- I would love to sell coffee out of my garage for a few hours before work.
Compared to Australia where the government attempts to plan and control every aspect of commercial business, Japan's laws are a real breath of fresh air. Melbourne's had laws so strict that they've done a bang up job of ruining the local live music scene. Minimum numbers of bouncers, licenses that don't extend past midnight. Our big dance parties have been shifting the start times earlier and earlier because of absurd curfews. Some bars have been grandfathered in because they had licenses before all this started but it's impossible to obtain new ones. Unless of course you are the casino in which case citizens can spend the weekly food money on slot machines at whatever hour of the day they choose.
In Japan I was in a city during a local jazz festival. Entire streets shut down, bars with stalls set up on the street selling drinks. Kids intermingled in the alcohol drinking area and you know what? People behaved themselves and had a great time.
Australia, lacking any real problems to solve is like a modern immune system attacking the host because it can't find the invaders it should be taking care of.
In Japan I was in a city during a local jazz festival. Entire streets shut down, bars with stalls set up on the street selling drinks. Kids intermingled in the alcohol drinking area and you know what? People behaved themselves and had a great time.
Australia, lacking any real problems to solve is like a modern immune system attacking the host because it can't find the invaders it should be taking care of.
I always liken this to "treat people like children and they'll meet your expectations"
> Melbourne's had laws so strict that they've done a bang up job of ruining the local live music scene.
And Perth ... the zoning here seems to work in a way that suburbs don't get shops, restaurants and bars integrated into them at all. Daycare centres are bloody everywhere, apparently they are really big business, but there's no community pub anywhere round here. Contrast to the UK where pubs are just sorta interspersed with houses in a lot of places.
People say one of the reasons Perth has fewer pubs is because we don't have the pokies so can't support so many, but I think it's also because poor planning has made it a real effort to get to one.
And Perth ... the zoning here seems to work in a way that suburbs don't get shops, restaurants and bars integrated into them at all. Daycare centres are bloody everywhere, apparently they are really big business, but there's no community pub anywhere round here. Contrast to the UK where pubs are just sorta interspersed with houses in a lot of places.
People say one of the reasons Perth has fewer pubs is because we don't have the pokies so can't support so many, but I think it's also because poor planning has made it a real effort to get to one.
Happen to have that article? Sounds like a good read.
It was here on hn not too long ago, I think this one (but it appears to be down or deleted) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44356248
> […] and even had a whiskey bottle saved for him (privilege for the regulars!)
Not a privilege. Anyone can do that. They usually keep the bottle(s) for up to 3 months.
Source: I’m Japanese.
Not a privilege. Anyone can do that. They usually keep the bottle(s) for up to 3 months.
Source: I’m Japanese.
Sure, but at that time, at that place, for a foreigner it was quite rare!
Source: I'm Japanese too ;]
Source: I'm Japanese too ;]
> That 10+ tall loud white people was ruining the third place this bar represented to the locals.
I could easily see this being an issue in a lot of smaller US bars.
A group of 10+ loud university students coming into a sleepy storefront bar may not be doing anything wrong per se but they can completely change the atmosphere for the regulars.
I could easily see this being an issue in a lot of smaller US bars.
A group of 10+ loud university students coming into a sleepy storefront bar may not be doing anything wrong per se but they can completely change the atmosphere for the regulars.
I wandered into a place like that. It was the highlight of my trip :)
But... It was a third place for you as well.
"Unlike the bars or nightclubs many tourists may imagine, snack bars are warm, home-like places," said Mayuko Igarashi, president and director of Snack Yokocho Culture Inc, which has been offering tours of snack bars across Japan for travellers since 2021. "The 'mama'… welcomes guests with a sense of personal care."
I think it's pretty unlikely that they visit bars who don't want the tourists.
I often go on food tours in new cities (e.g. Secret Food Tours) and the restaurants they visit seem to like the consistent revenue stream during off-hours.
I often go on food tours in new cities (e.g. Secret Food Tours) and the restaurants they visit seem to like the consistent revenue stream during off-hours.
"Exploiting" it means the mamas running the bar make more money... They're literally entrepreneurs. And if they don't want to serve foreigners they can always just have Japanese-only signage like many other places already do.
What's wrong with someone using an aspect of their culture to make a living?
Cool, in Holland snack bars are not homely at all. Some have just little cubbyholes in the wall where you insert a coin and take a croquette from behind a little window (we like buying stuff from behind windows I guess, lol).
And if there is staff it's usually a big grumpy guy. And the food is really greasy. It's not a place you go for fun. It's more for quick fix food (though some of it is delicious though bad for you)
I didn't like Japan much personally because it's so conservative and traditional (like it says there in the article LGBTQ+ is still an issue there, tattoos are frowned upon, life is pretty formal etc). So I don't feel at home there. And as such I've never really explored it. It's a nice country with nice people but I just don't fit in which was awkward for me. I'm more at home at a burning man kinda setting :)
But this sounds pretty cool. If I do have to go there again some day I'll look one of these places up.
And if there is staff it's usually a big grumpy guy. And the food is really greasy. It's not a place you go for fun. It's more for quick fix food (though some of it is delicious though bad for you)
I didn't like Japan much personally because it's so conservative and traditional (like it says there in the article LGBTQ+ is still an issue there, tattoos are frowned upon, life is pretty formal etc). So I don't feel at home there. And as such I've never really explored it. It's a nice country with nice people but I just don't fit in which was awkward for me. I'm more at home at a burning man kinda setting :)
But this sounds pretty cool. If I do have to go there again some day I'll look one of these places up.
I think LGBTQ acceptance in Japan is significantly better than any Western country. The "issue", as it manifests, is of a fundamentally different nature. Not everyone is open to it, of course, and legal marriage is not an option[1]. But while there are many people who are somewhat bigoted, Japan is not an Abrahamic country. Unlike any Christian or Islamic country, the number of people who hate LGBTQ individuals, want them all to go to Hell, and make their entire political identity based around hurting them, or actually committing violence against them, is significantly smaller.
[1] Notably, the lack of legalised marriage is not because the population is too conservative. Rather, it is because the US forced a constitution on Japan which enshrines heterosexual marriage as constitutional law, and changing the constitution is significantly more difficult than changing a normal law. There is broad popular support for same-sex marriage, and it would almost certainly be legal if not for this fact.
[1] Notably, the lack of legalised marriage is not because the population is too conservative. Rather, it is because the US forced a constitution on Japan which enshrines heterosexual marriage as constitutional law, and changing the constitution is significantly more difficult than changing a normal law. There is broad popular support for same-sex marriage, and it would almost certainly be legal if not for this fact.
While I’m not part of that community myself, I’ve lived in Japan and have known LGBTQ people who are. In the big metros at least, as long as you’re putting forth even a little effort to follow etiquette and you’re not causing problems for others or making a nuisance of yourself, nobody pays you any mind regardless of orientation. Everybody is too busy with their own lives to go poking their noses into the lives of others without due cause.
This is somewhat true of major US metros, but the effect is particularly strong in Tokyo, etc. It’s one of the things I love about living there… being just a number is liberating, even as someone quite boring and mild-mannered.
This is somewhat true of major US metros, but the effect is particularly strong in Tokyo, etc. It’s one of the things I love about living there… being just a number is liberating, even as someone quite boring and mild-mannered.
> as long as you’re putting forth even a little effort to follow etiquette and you’re not causing problems for others or making a nuisance of yourself, nobody pays you any mind regardless of orientation
A bit like Glasgow then.
A bit like Glasgow then.
Yeah as a neurodivergent person I'm super bad with etiquette :) I could never attend a formal dinner in a western country either. So these things are super stressful and my colleague made things much worse.
I travelled there with my same sex partner. We had zero issues in a single bed hotel room, and there were plenty of gay bars. We did find the cover charge difference for gays vs straights amusing (where gay entry was cheaper).
I’m sure there are social issues, a local bartender told us they had linguistic limitations that acted as sort of barriers to expression, and I’m sure there are issues for gay youth, but as a whole it felt relatively similar to most western countries from a safety/friendliness perspective. Gay marriage is a slow turnaround, and given Japanese culture is socially conservative I imagine that might take a while, but marriage and social acceptance are not necessarily tightly coupled.
I’m sure there are social issues, a local bartender told us they had linguistic limitations that acted as sort of barriers to expression, and I’m sure there are issues for gay youth, but as a whole it felt relatively similar to most western countries from a safety/friendliness perspective. Gay marriage is a slow turnaround, and given Japanese culture is socially conservative I imagine that might take a while, but marriage and social acceptance are not necessarily tightly coupled.
I can't find the article, but I read an article about the experience of an LGBTQ Californian that moved to Tokyo found it more friendly than US (including progressive state).
The point was that in US LGBTQ is politicized. If you tell people about it, you have to either defend it (vs conservatives) or explain it (vs progressives, but with encouragement). Both got very exhausting fast for the person, even the well intentioned ones.
In Japan, the general reaction from coworkers to landlords was へー, そうなんだ。 (oh ok, cool.) no follow up questions or prodding.
Vast majority don't care enough about your private sexual preferences. (goodness sake people it's the country of Hentai, people there really don't fucking care about your private presences) They do, however, care when you politicize it (making it their issue)
The trend is slow but good looking for LGBTQ right in Japan. It won't move forward like people expect in the west. I'd guess one or two more generations. The only risk factor I see is the west. The polarization and politization of the issue, seen from Japan, is making the conservative wings more cautious about the topic.
Either case, Shinjuku 2chome will be a very welcoming place. My gay friend from Sweden love that place more than any supposed to be gay friendly place in Europe
The point was that in US LGBTQ is politicized. If you tell people about it, you have to either defend it (vs conservatives) or explain it (vs progressives, but with encouragement). Both got very exhausting fast for the person, even the well intentioned ones.
In Japan, the general reaction from coworkers to landlords was へー, そうなんだ。 (oh ok, cool.) no follow up questions or prodding.
Vast majority don't care enough about your private sexual preferences. (goodness sake people it's the country of Hentai, people there really don't fucking care about your private presences) They do, however, care when you politicize it (making it their issue)
The trend is slow but good looking for LGBTQ right in Japan. It won't move forward like people expect in the west. I'd guess one or two more generations. The only risk factor I see is the west. The polarization and politization of the issue, seen from Japan, is making the conservative wings more cautious about the topic.
Either case, Shinjuku 2chome will be a very welcoming place. My gay friend from Sweden love that place more than any supposed to be gay friendly place in Europe
> In Japan, the general reaction from coworkers to landlords was へー, そうなんだ。 (oh ok, cool.) no follow up questions or prodding.
That matches my experience pretty well, including the expats living here.
Coming out to my friends was kinda relieving since we all hang out anyways, and _nothing's changed_.
That matches my experience pretty well, including the expats living here.
Coming out to my friends was kinda relieving since we all hang out anyways, and _nothing's changed_.
Also like, pronouns in Chinese script, which Japanese language adopted as the script and a bulk source of vocabulary, are default ungendered. This significantly reduce the pressure that keeps gender identification a persistent checklist item in every contexts.
Ah I see. The thing is, I was on a work trip and the colleague I was with had been there a lot and he was constantly lecturing me about what not to do, what to wear, cover up tattoos etc. And what not to mention which was the LGBTQ topics in particular.
This kinda made me feel awkward because I couldn't be myself so I basically dissociated and just went through the motions while I was there. And didn't explore much. It was annoying because we weren't even there as businessmen but technical experts.
I think my colleague was overdoing the whole fitting in thing anyway but I was really on edge. I'm sure my impression was tainted by it now that I think of it.
This kinda made me feel awkward because I couldn't be myself so I basically dissociated and just went through the motions while I was there. And didn't explore much. It was annoying because we weren't even there as businessmen but technical experts.
I think my colleague was overdoing the whole fitting in thing anyway but I was really on edge. I'm sure my impression was tainted by it now that I think of it.
JP Resident, and LGBT.
The vast majority of the "rules" apply only in extreme business situations, generally in the oldest Japanese companies.
Outside of that, the Japanese are extremely forgiving of those that are visiting not following _every single custom_. There's an understanding that so long as you're not disrupting the peace (being super loud, making a mess, etc) then a level of tolerance is applied.
LGBT is much of the same way where, your personal feelings and decisions don't impact everyone else, and thus it's not their business to decide what you can/can't do.
Once you're living here, there's some expectation that you start learning and participating in customs and traditions, but even that's extremely flexible.
The vast majority of the "rules" apply only in extreme business situations, generally in the oldest Japanese companies.
Outside of that, the Japanese are extremely forgiving of those that are visiting not following _every single custom_. There's an understanding that so long as you're not disrupting the peace (being super loud, making a mess, etc) then a level of tolerance is applied.
LGBT is much of the same way where, your personal feelings and decisions don't impact everyone else, and thus it's not their business to decide what you can/can't do.
Once you're living here, there's some expectation that you start learning and participating in customs and traditions, but even that's extremely flexible.
Thanks! The people were were visiting weren't actually very traditional. I had a feeling they were a lot more accepting than I was told. And I'm not a loud person ever.
Now I wish I could go back some time to really experience it :)
Now I wish I could go back some time to really experience it :)
> Notably, the lack of legalised marriage is not because the population is too conservative. Rather, it is because the US forced a constitution on Japan which enshrines heterosexual marriage as constitutional law, and changing the constitution is significantly more difficult than changing a normal law.
Beyond the fact that they could easily get around this with civil unions, this feels like a massive misrepresentation of the status quo inside the LDP politicians that ultimately get to decide whether progress is made on this.
The current prime minister, in her previous attempt to campaign to be the head of the party (back in ... 2022 I think?), declared her opposition to married couples opting out of sharing a last name[0]. In the 21st century, strong opposition to the idea that somebody might want to keep their own family name after marriage. Something so small and unimportant. Still very far away from civil unions for non-hetero couples.
The Japanese ruling class is so far away from acceptance of anything beyond a very specific notion of married couples, even if the general population thinks differently. These things can change quickly but just in terms of policy delta between Japan and most other members of the OECD the gap is quit huge. Legal rights for one's spouse starts is important, and right now there's really nothing.
(There are some logistical things around the family register that mean that such a change would require some changes to that format. This is not a good enough reason to prevent this!)
[0]: In Japan if two Japanese people get married then they have to unify on their last name. In practice this usually means the woman throwing away their last name. In a funny twist of fate you actually have more flexibiltiy in an international marriage. If a Japanese person marries a foreigner they _don't_ have to do this (and can even go with a hyphenated last name!).
Beyond the fact that they could easily get around this with civil unions, this feels like a massive misrepresentation of the status quo inside the LDP politicians that ultimately get to decide whether progress is made on this.
The current prime minister, in her previous attempt to campaign to be the head of the party (back in ... 2022 I think?), declared her opposition to married couples opting out of sharing a last name[0]. In the 21st century, strong opposition to the idea that somebody might want to keep their own family name after marriage. Something so small and unimportant. Still very far away from civil unions for non-hetero couples.
The Japanese ruling class is so far away from acceptance of anything beyond a very specific notion of married couples, even if the general population thinks differently. These things can change quickly but just in terms of policy delta between Japan and most other members of the OECD the gap is quit huge. Legal rights for one's spouse starts is important, and right now there's really nothing.
(There are some logistical things around the family register that mean that such a change would require some changes to that format. This is not a good enough reason to prevent this!)
[0]: In Japan if two Japanese people get married then they have to unify on their last name. In practice this usually means the woman throwing away their last name. In a funny twist of fate you actually have more flexibiltiy in an international marriage. If a Japanese person marries a foreigner they _don't_ have to do this (and can even go with a hyphenated last name!).
While there is no national civil union law, and it would of course be great if there were, enough prefectures and municipalities have implemented civil unions such that >90% of people live in areas covered by them, so the legal status quo isn't horrendous.
> Something so small and unimportant. Still very far away from civil unions for non-hetero couples.
Your framing of this issue is a bit misleading. You suppose that this name change issue is a prerequisite step for support for civil unions because in your perception it is more trivial. But actually, support for same-sex marriage is more popular than support for different surnames in marriage. Although even then, a supermajority also support different surnames, and even a majority of LDP supporters support both too.
> Something so small and unimportant. Still very far away from civil unions for non-hetero couples.
Your framing of this issue is a bit misleading. You suppose that this name change issue is a prerequisite step for support for civil unions because in your perception it is more trivial. But actually, support for same-sex marriage is more popular than support for different surnames in marriage. Although even then, a supermajority also support different surnames, and even a majority of LDP supporters support both too.
Do the locality-based civil unions actually provide necessary rights for spouses when it comes to things like property rights and the like? Maybe it does.
You’re right to point out public support (I didn’t realize the name thing had less support than same-sex marriage!)
I mainly wanted to highlight that the politicians are not there yet (or rather the ones that end up making the decision, even if supporters and the rank and file support it). But maybe we’ll get same-sex marriage before the name thing!
I could totally be misreading what the state of things on the ground is.
You’re right to point out public support (I didn’t realize the name thing had less support than same-sex marriage!)
I mainly wanted to highlight that the politicians are not there yet (or rather the ones that end up making the decision, even if supporters and the rank and file support it). But maybe we’ll get same-sex marriage before the name thing!
I could totally be misreading what the state of things on the ground is.
The municipal/prefectural civil unions aren't fully legally equivalent to marriage unfortunately, they do offer tangible benefits but there is still room to improve. It's not nothing, at least.
One thing I would like to note is that Takaichi doesn't necessarily get to make the decision. Japan does not have a presidential system and the PM does not have veto power. As PM she does obviously hold significant influence in the party, but the LDP is a broad tent with multiple factions, and those factions could potentially pressure her given the LDP is losing ground and opposition to same-sex rights is unpopular even with the party's supporters. Due to the constitutional law issue, I'm not optimistic about same-sex marriage in the near-term, but I do think things are trending in the correct direction, that it's likely that more legal rights will continue to be enshrined in the short-term even if full marriage recognition isn't, and that Western media creating a panic about Takaichi and Japan's supposed trend towards ultraconservatism is more oriented towards garnering engagement than accurate reporting.
One thing I would like to note is that Takaichi doesn't necessarily get to make the decision. Japan does not have a presidential system and the PM does not have veto power. As PM she does obviously hold significant influence in the party, but the LDP is a broad tent with multiple factions, and those factions could potentially pressure her given the LDP is losing ground and opposition to same-sex rights is unpopular even with the party's supporters. Due to the constitutional law issue, I'm not optimistic about same-sex marriage in the near-term, but I do think things are trending in the correct direction, that it's likely that more legal rights will continue to be enshrined in the short-term even if full marriage recognition isn't, and that Western media creating a panic about Takaichi and Japan's supposed trend towards ultraconservatism is more oriented towards garnering engagement than accurate reporting.
I'm confused where the assertion about the constitution is coming from. There have been at least 5 years of lower court decisions in Japan stating that lack of same sex marriage is unconstitutional. See the below article noting that the current ban on same sex marriage is due to civil law, not the constitution.
https://apnews.com/article/japan-lgbtq-samesex-marriage-ruli...
https://apnews.com/article/japan-lgbtq-samesex-marriage-ruli...
I mean, lower courts don't mean a lot in the grand scheme of things, for better or worse. It seems clear that the lower courts are trying to legislate from the bench in service of a moral good. The constitution is extremely unambiguous about this:
第二十四条
婚姻は、両性の合意のみに基いて成立し、夫婦が同等の権利を有することを基本として、相互の協力により、維持されなければならない。
You could play with that though since "both sexes" could be perceived as "both individuals that have a sex" and "husband and wife" don't have any technical meaning.
I'm not a lawyer, but they're working on it.
I'm not a lawyer, but they're working on it.
There is value in maintaining the fiction that words mean things.
It's already a play on 両姓(both surnames), which could have meant that parents could constitutionally block marriages. Not that it matters, though. People are frankly more concerned about tax frauds and crime record laundering abusing same-sex marriages than imagined traditional family values.
Thanks, I did not go to the source document here so your quote and translation is appreciated!
> I think LGBTQ acceptance in Japan is significantly better than any Western country.
Sorry, but I don't see your reasoning support this at all. The relative lack of Abrahamic religion would make an impact for sure, but Japan is more socially conservative by most relevant metrics. How does this one factor overcome that?
Sorry, but I don't see your reasoning support this at all. The relative lack of Abrahamic religion would make an impact for sure, but Japan is more socially conservative by most relevant metrics. How does this one factor overcome that?
I don't particularly agree with claims that Japan is more socially conservative by most metrics, because they are made by Westerners who frame conservatism relative entirely to their own worldview, a worldview which is not particularly informed about the reality of Japan given that Western media constantly reports falsehoods for clicks. But that's not really here nor there.
The subject matter is LGBTQ acceptance specifically. The point about Abrahamic religion is that it creates a culture of extremely open and aggressive hostility towards LGBTQ people. Hatred becomes part of people's foundational beliefs because they believe that is what God demands of them, and they cannot be reasoned with to reach a mutual understanding. While you could cherrypick "relevant metrics" like specific legal rights to rate Western countries as "more progressive", the actual populations are less accepting, in other words your social rights are lesser and you are more likely to face severe discrimination and violence. Those legal rights are also in an extremely fragile state because there are conservative movements to strip those rights. In Japan, indifference is far more common than hatred, and political movements are not polarized around things like "wokeness" or "social justice". Takaichi, widely reported in Western media as ushering in a new era of Japanese hard-right conservatism, has a pretty moderate stance that is analogous to Obama circa 2008; she does not support same-sex marriage, but is not actively antagonistic or hateful towards LGBTQ people.
I would sum it up as this: LGBTQ life in Japan is peaceful. Legal rights could stand to be improved, but there is no fight to constantly justify your own existence, and you are allowed to live without facing significant social prejudice. Most people are accepting, and those that aren't mostly just don't care. There are large supportive communities and extensive cultural representation in media, too. I, personally, would never trade this status quo for that of the US or UK in a million years.
The subject matter is LGBTQ acceptance specifically. The point about Abrahamic religion is that it creates a culture of extremely open and aggressive hostility towards LGBTQ people. Hatred becomes part of people's foundational beliefs because they believe that is what God demands of them, and they cannot be reasoned with to reach a mutual understanding. While you could cherrypick "relevant metrics" like specific legal rights to rate Western countries as "more progressive", the actual populations are less accepting, in other words your social rights are lesser and you are more likely to face severe discrimination and violence. Those legal rights are also in an extremely fragile state because there are conservative movements to strip those rights. In Japan, indifference is far more common than hatred, and political movements are not polarized around things like "wokeness" or "social justice". Takaichi, widely reported in Western media as ushering in a new era of Japanese hard-right conservatism, has a pretty moderate stance that is analogous to Obama circa 2008; she does not support same-sex marriage, but is not actively antagonistic or hateful towards LGBTQ people.
I would sum it up as this: LGBTQ life in Japan is peaceful. Legal rights could stand to be improved, but there is no fight to constantly justify your own existence, and you are allowed to live without facing significant social prejudice. Most people are accepting, and those that aren't mostly just don't care. There are large supportive communities and extensive cultural representation in media, too. I, personally, would never trade this status quo for that of the US or UK in a million years.
> tattoos are frowned upon
My understanding is that this isn't about tattoos per se, but that historically only yakuza would have them. So it's more about not wanting to deal with criminals than not liking tattoos in and of themselves.
My understanding is that this isn't about tattoos per se, but that historically only yakuza would have them. So it's more about not wanting to deal with criminals than not liking tattoos in and of themselves.
That is my understanding as well. And, honestly, even if it wasn't a matter of criminals necessarily (often tattoos were associated with ex-military), until relatively recently, tattoos were a pretty clear class differentiator in the US as well.
The intention of no-tattoos policy is to be able to decline services without mentioning yakuza as a class, so to avoid discrimination lawsuits. But part time bathhouse shift managers might not be aware of that, and/or know that rules need to be enforced equally on all customers to be not outright discriminatory, and so mileages vary.
Imo, the article is exaggerating quite a bit, and written from a perspective of a tourist, which is fair. Nowadays these bars aren’t hidden or try to be out of sight. Like there’s a whole google maps category just for these type of establishments.
But in general, you’d expect what was outlined in the post. From my friends and etc., food might range from pretty bad to average. Might get charged service fee if you’re not hyperlocal to the bar. Also atmosphere, once again, depends. City, neighbourhood, sleeziness level and etc.
About the gay stuff… Honestly it’s more of a “i don’t care just don’t show it off” attitude, rather than “no gays allowed”. But the “don’t show it off” part applies to straight people as well. Nobody is gonna do or say anything, but an auntie might shake their heads as they pass by.
Tattoos are a bit different. If you’re white, nobody will care unless they’re very visible (face/neck). You’ll be barred from some establishments (e.g. onsens/gyms), but if it’s coverable with the covers then it’s fine. Mostly historical reasons, and people’s aversion from accidentally hanging out with the “troublesome crowd” as one would say.
But in general, you’d expect what was outlined in the post. From my friends and etc., food might range from pretty bad to average. Might get charged service fee if you’re not hyperlocal to the bar. Also atmosphere, once again, depends. City, neighbourhood, sleeziness level and etc.
About the gay stuff… Honestly it’s more of a “i don’t care just don’t show it off” attitude, rather than “no gays allowed”. But the “don’t show it off” part applies to straight people as well. Nobody is gonna do or say anything, but an auntie might shake their heads as they pass by.
Tattoos are a bit different. If you’re white, nobody will care unless they’re very visible (face/neck). You’ll be barred from some establishments (e.g. onsens/gyms), but if it’s coverable with the covers then it’s fine. Mostly historical reasons, and people’s aversion from accidentally hanging out with the “troublesome crowd” as one would say.
It’s worth pointing out that there are certainly establishments where tourists aren’t welcome. Ironically I’ve had some gay friends walked from a local only gay bar to the tourists welcome gay bar across the street :-)
Not a local, but in my experience this is due to tourists not being able to speak Japanese, which makes the people working in a place very uncomfortable ("will this person follow the rules? How can I do proper service if I can't communicate?"). A 大丈夫、少し日本語をしゃべります (it's ok, I speak a bit of japanese) has been enough to open the doors for me.
That being said, they do have issues with some nationalities. For example, the average American is way too loud for the average japanese place. Even if they think they are being polite, they just talk too loud and too much for japanese sensibilities.
That being said, they do have issues with some nationalities. For example, the average American is way too loud for the average japanese place. Even if they think they are being polite, they just talk too loud and too much for japanese sensibilities.
Oh definitely. I mean, my neighbourhood has a bar that doesn’t even allow people who don’t live in the area as well. I guess, the gay bars not allowing foreigners is for a different reason, but soft discrimination is very ubiquitous. On the bright side, there are hundreds of thousands of other establishments that will happily take your money.
To be clear, I take zero issue with the bar exclusion and my friends are in the same position. The cultural differences are so substantial that it’s an understandable desire for locals not wanting to adapt theirs to suit ours.
Perfect Days (1) had a nice illustration of sunakku.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_Days
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_Days
If only food service paid decent money.
I know the majority owner of a pretty massive fast food chain (600 stores, most franchises) and he was telling me he was offered 10M to sell the company. His entire life he worked day and night, and he would be getting $3M. (Mind you, he owns dozens of franchises, so he still keeps those)
He brought his kid into the business, and I can tell he has a bit of envy that I own a small software company that within a few years is approaching 1M in revenue. There is less glamor and margins in food.
I have some ideas of using my math/engineering skills to make low cost recipes that taste good, using my masters in Industrial Engineering to lower cooking/labor costs, but... economics pushes me towards high value. Any time I do the math on food service, I see myself making 100k/yr, and never 1M/yr.
I know the majority owner of a pretty massive fast food chain (600 stores, most franchises) and he was telling me he was offered 10M to sell the company. His entire life he worked day and night, and he would be getting $3M. (Mind you, he owns dozens of franchises, so he still keeps those)
He brought his kid into the business, and I can tell he has a bit of envy that I own a small software company that within a few years is approaching 1M in revenue. There is less glamor and margins in food.
I have some ideas of using my math/engineering skills to make low cost recipes that taste good, using my masters in Industrial Engineering to lower cooking/labor costs, but... economics pushes me towards high value. Any time I do the math on food service, I see myself making 100k/yr, and never 1M/yr.
You act like $100k/year isn't still well above average. Hell it's above what SWEs make in any country that's not the USA.
But pertaining to this article, the key to tiny Japanese restaurants such as these snack bars is that their startup costs are extremely low, rents are low and since they're tiny, they don't need staff so they keep all the profit. Probably good enough to make an average living without too many worries.
But pertaining to this article, the key to tiny Japanese restaurants such as these snack bars is that their startup costs are extremely low, rents are low and since they're tiny, they don't need staff so they keep all the profit. Probably good enough to make an average living without too many worries.
100k is a pay cut for me. Especially the risk and amount of work involved.
I program a w2 job and can make 1.5x that without difficulty. I program for my own company and make 2-20x more.
I don't think the average person could handle the risk, difficulty of labor, and knowledge to run a successful restaurant that makes 100k/yr.
I program a w2 job and can make 1.5x that without difficulty. I program for my own company and make 2-20x more.
I don't think the average person could handle the risk, difficulty of labor, and knowledge to run a successful restaurant that makes 100k/yr.
So you're just bragging now? Do you even have a point? Cool that you make so much, but for most people in most of the world, $100k is a lot.
> I don't think the average person could handle the risk, difficulty of labor, and knowledge to run a successful restaurant that makes 100k/yr.
Margins are so low in restaurants in North America because of absurd regulations, zoning, rent, etc... Literally 90% of the costs are bullshit.
That's why it's difficult. You need a ton of revenue to deal with the bullshit, which means large upfront investment, staff, expensive rent, etc... You're doing more than most CEOs. Take away all the bullshit and it's a pretty straightforward business that anyone can do: you sell food and drinks.
In Japan or much of the EU, to make $100k you really only need to sell $150-200k. No staff, tiny footprint, minimal regulations, cheap rent or you own it. That's how restaurants can survive there with like 10 guests per night.
> I don't think the average person could handle the risk, difficulty of labor, and knowledge to run a successful restaurant that makes 100k/yr.
Margins are so low in restaurants in North America because of absurd regulations, zoning, rent, etc... Literally 90% of the costs are bullshit.
That's why it's difficult. You need a ton of revenue to deal with the bullshit, which means large upfront investment, staff, expensive rent, etc... You're doing more than most CEOs. Take away all the bullshit and it's a pretty straightforward business that anyone can do: you sell food and drinks.
In Japan or much of the EU, to make $100k you really only need to sell $150-200k. No staff, tiny footprint, minimal regulations, cheap rent or you own it. That's how restaurants can survive there with like 10 guests per night.
Sysco makes a billion a year basically doing that.
They basically deliver food--not necessarily complete meals. But, yes, a lot of restaurants use them for food delivery. Probably not at the highest end but they can be pretty decent given good food prep.
I don't know where you want to draw the line but imo they get pretty close to complete meals (https://foodie.sysco.com/) especially when it comes to desserts and appetizers.
The desserts are where I can tell the most since one restaurants lava cake is often dangerously close to every other mid tier restaurant.
The desserts are where I can tell the most since one restaurants lava cake is often dangerously close to every other mid tier restaurant.
The article should have at least mentioned the contradiction between publicizing places whose business model is based on meaningful conversation and repeat customers to foreign tourists, who generally do not speak the local language and who are typically in the country for only a week or two.
When I hitchhiked around Japan in 1999 snackbars were our goto places to have a drink as there was always some affordable home cooking (I was pretty broke) and decently priced drinks. We also had such a great time meeting locales.
Love these places. My wife's best friends husband owns one in Osaka and it's always a great time when we go. I find conversation is a lot easier in places with an 8 seat max.
I wish we had stuff like this in Vancouver.
I wish we had stuff like this in Vancouver.
It is an interesting concept when contrasted with the disappearance of "third places" in the western world.
I got to thinking how difficult a micro business like this would be to run in the UK. You'd have council hygiene inspectors, insurance, alcohol duties, zoning limitations, music licensing, and the business rates folks all over your back for starters.
Same here in California. Zoning, permits, food inspections and handicap access requirements would make a small snack bar economically infeasible.
From being in California often and reading social media, I get the feeling California and UK share a lot of similarities in planning bureaucracy. Residential areas are sacrosanct and the idea of anyone running even a small public facing service business from the home is onerous (though, curiously, it's very common for dental or GP surgeries to be in converted residential property here).
Not snack bars, but tiny bars were absolutely one of my favorite things in Japan. The streets of 3-5 seat bars felt incredibly special and distinct from anything I've seen in the US, regardless of the presumably high % of their business that came from tourists.
> the presumably high % of their business that came from tourists
That's only in the areas frequented by tourists. The vast majority of such tiny bars cater mainly to locals.
Lately I've been taking pictures of bar signs in Japanese cities:
https://gally.net/barsigns/index.html
The sheer number of bars in such dense concentrations continues to impress me.
That's only in the areas frequented by tourists. The vast majority of such tiny bars cater mainly to locals.
Lately I've been taking pictures of bar signs in Japanese cities:
https://gally.net/barsigns/index.html
The sheer number of bars in such dense concentrations continues to impress me.
There is an episode of Japanology on the Sunakku Bars
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7s0z3i
Everything is "secret" now, I guess because it works to get clicks. If you believed Youtube videos now, there's nothing that isn't either secret, rare, or the best.
I read the "secret" here as "doesn't have a sign facing the street".
Japanese “snack” bars (izakayas), are 100% not a secret to anyone, be it Japanese or foreigners who’ve visited the country at least once in their life. They are as common as street vending machines, as taxis in any major city in the world, and restaurants of any kind in any place on Earth. Don’t fall for the meme → https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/thing-japan
Snack and Izakaya are very different things.
I find it unfortunate that this article is glorifying the quite exploitative industry of hostess bars in Japan. From Wikipedia:
> A "snack bar" (スナックバー, sunakku bā), "snack" for short, refers to a kind of hostess bar. It is an alcohol-serving bar that employs female staff to serve and flirt with male customers.
It is the kind of place where lonely men pay money to talk to hostesses, and while the "mama" runs the show, there is also a staff of young women who do most of the work.
The example shown in the article, which happens to do speed dating and fortune telling, is absolutely not a central example of this kind of place.
> A "snack bar" (スナックバー, sunakku bā), "snack" for short, refers to a kind of hostess bar. It is an alcohol-serving bar that employs female staff to serve and flirt with male customers.
It is the kind of place where lonely men pay money to talk to hostesses, and while the "mama" runs the show, there is also a staff of young women who do most of the work.
The example shown in the article, which happens to do speed dating and fortune telling, is absolutely not a central example of this kind of place.
What makes you so confident you understand these places when you're not Japanese and had to look up the wiki page for it?
I know exactly what I'm talking about, but I linked a trustworthy source so that it's not just "I told you so". But if that's what you want:
I'm Japanese and I understand this issue perfectly and you don't. It's exactly as I said it is. There I told you so. So go take a hike.
I'm Japanese and I understand this issue perfectly and you don't. It's exactly as I said it is. There I told you so. So go take a hike.
> I'm Japanese and I understand this issue perfectly and you don't.
Um, I'm calling shenanigans on this one. You have a viewpoint that seems more like negatively-biased indirect knowledge of this part of Japanese culture.
Were you born in Japan?
Have you lived there as an adult?
Have you frequented スナック and other types of hostess bars? If so, how did you discover them and with whom?
If you’re older, how has the スナック scene changed over your lifetime?
Um, I'm calling shenanigans on this one. You have a viewpoint that seems more like negatively-biased indirect knowledge of this part of Japanese culture.
Were you born in Japan?
Have you lived there as an adult?
Have you frequented スナック and other types of hostess bars? If so, how did you discover them and with whom?
If you’re older, how has the スナック scene changed over your lifetime?
Comparing snack bars to hostess bars in the exploitive industry sense is pretty funny but you do you.
> I find it unfortunate that this article is glorifying the quite exploitative industry of hostess bars in Japan. From Wikipedia:
> > A "snack bar" (スナックバー, sunakku bā), "snack" for short, refers to a kind of hostess bar. It is an alcohol-serving bar that employs female staff to serve and flirt with male customers.
My friend, quoting Wikipedia on a topic as culture-specific as スナック is just flat out irresponsible.
スナック run the whole gamut from friendly place to hang out, to a place lonely men flirt with hostesses, to thinly-veiled fronts for prostitution (and possibly human trafficking), with most leaning much more in the vanilla direction. While they aren’t always easy to tell apart from each other from the outside looking, スナック and キャバクラ or クラブ (or whatever they are calling them at a given time and in a given place) are very different experiences with different expectations.
The bar-going locals pretty much all know the rules and expectations of each スナック. If they don’t know about a specific place, they can usually find out quickly.
The post-ww2 history of スナック (and other local drinking establishments) is fascinating if you can get people to talk to you about it. It definitely has been a way for various types of less-privileged folks (e.g., widows, low education, low social class, etc.) to earn money, some times multiples of what their customers earn. [side note: this isn’t actually as great as it sounds sometimes, as the bar scene has lower social status than a salaryman job, even if the bar owner makes 3-10x what the salarymen make).
To close, the one specific subset of スナック that you refer to definitely exists, but it doesn’t define the whole dynamic genre.
Source: Me. Lived in Japan a while. Dated a スナック mama-san (no money was involved) after I was taken to her place by a friend of mine who was her alcohol distributor. Learned a lot from her.
> > A "snack bar" (スナックバー, sunakku bā), "snack" for short, refers to a kind of hostess bar. It is an alcohol-serving bar that employs female staff to serve and flirt with male customers.
My friend, quoting Wikipedia on a topic as culture-specific as スナック is just flat out irresponsible.
スナック run the whole gamut from friendly place to hang out, to a place lonely men flirt with hostesses, to thinly-veiled fronts for prostitution (and possibly human trafficking), with most leaning much more in the vanilla direction. While they aren’t always easy to tell apart from each other from the outside looking, スナック and キャバクラ or クラブ (or whatever they are calling them at a given time and in a given place) are very different experiences with different expectations.
The bar-going locals pretty much all know the rules and expectations of each スナック. If they don’t know about a specific place, they can usually find out quickly.
The post-ww2 history of スナック (and other local drinking establishments) is fascinating if you can get people to talk to you about it. It definitely has been a way for various types of less-privileged folks (e.g., widows, low education, low social class, etc.) to earn money, some times multiples of what their customers earn. [side note: this isn’t actually as great as it sounds sometimes, as the bar scene has lower social status than a salaryman job, even if the bar owner makes 3-10x what the salarymen make).
To close, the one specific subset of スナック that you refer to definitely exists, but it doesn’t define the whole dynamic genre.
Source: Me. Lived in Japan a while. Dated a スナック mama-san (no money was involved) after I was taken to her place by a friend of mine who was her alcohol distributor. Learned a lot from her.
It's not a secret. They are public businesses and many are on Google Maps.
Just as a helpful tip: "inside the secret world" is an colloquial term for just "here's an inside peek at something not so widely known", not that it's literally "secret" and hidden.
These are widely known. The article is just using the standard annoying fetishism of Japan for clicks.
Except what is in the article is widely known. The article only did a surface level overview which implies that the secret is the existence or concept of them. The article even eludes to this in saying that one of them was in an unmarked building.
I seem to recall a bone machine in Gaspar Noe’s Enter the Void.
Another snac bar that he brought me to had an interesting story. The snac bar was in an apartment complex (due to Japan's funny zoning laws) at the nightlife district, could maybe fit 5-6 max. The place was filled with blues and jazz LPs! When we went there, there was only one man sitting, eating omelets and a talking to the owner.
Turns out the owner used to be a salary man in Tokyo, but got sick of the corporate banking life, took his savings, moved back to Kyoto to open his small bar. He loved music, particularly blues and jazz, so just bought an apartment and rebuilt it on his own as this jazz n blues bar. He barely made any money, lower than minimum wage. but he said to him it was a life style, and he enjoyed it and wouldn't have it any other way.
The guy eating the omelet, turned out to be a pretty famous professor at Kyoto University. He had this deal with the owner that he would make him lunch boxes and dinner for the professor (omelet wasn't on the bars menu), and he hanged around there every night. They've had that setting going for 8 years and the owner laughed that he was essentially the professors wife, and a bad influence for his workaholics habit!
There's a charm to those places, but they're best observed from the distance. The group of exchange student I was part of made a local bar close to the uni our hang out, because they had cheap beer and amazing food. But one day the owner politely told us they didn't want us to come back. That 10+ tall loud white people was ruining the third place this bar represented to the locals.
Funny thing many of the students protested "I don't understand. We're customers. We're paying and bringing many customers!" they tried to convince the students "to you it's consumption but to us it's a community place". Few of the students would accept that answer, but obliged. Oddly only the French did understand the sentiment. (and the Swiss were the most entitled)