Ask HN: How to continue to be gracious about the good fortune of rich friends?
404 comments
I worked in wealth management and LIVED the hedonistic treadmill firsthand.
Everyone was jealous of the next level up. I was making 300k and my high school hometown friends were like "holy cow, you're so lucky this is amazing, you have your own apartment" meanwhile I was annoyed I couldn't keep up financially with my trust fund boyfriend who had $3 million a year to piss away with random trips to Bermuda. My CFO was jealous of the Principal who could take netjets and didn't have to fly first class everywhere. The NetJets guy was jealous of the billionaire principal who had his own jet. That billionaire was jealous of the main money dude who had family money inherited from the crusades. They all fought with their wives over private school tuition and horses. Everyone drank, did tons of drugs, had dramatic affairs and fought like cats and dogs with their families.
I left finance and went into healthcare and realized I'm pretty damn happy living a simple life. I kept a $1500 belt I bought from Henry Bendels that's incredibly ugly as a reminder of dumb decisions and having too much money to piss away on stupid crap!
Read Blood Diamonds: Tracing the Deadly Path of the World's Most Precious Stones Book by Greg Campbell. Reading that made me realize how our planet has finite resources and I just I wanted to cleave the my own consumption habits so stopped needless shopping for "fun" and started being a stubborn bastard about driving my 12 year old Hyundai into the ground. It's not much but it's my own private rebellion against the gaping maw of endless consumerism.
Worship your family, friends, love ones, health, music, doing things that make you feel alive, shared experiences and nature over shiny toys and stuff that just sits around collecting dust and looking pretty.
At the end of the day, we're all the same food for worms anyways no matter our net worth. Enjoy your friendships, realize they probably have their own internal struggles and problems they're dealing with and try to be there for them in whatever way you can!
Everyone was jealous of the next level up. I was making 300k and my high school hometown friends were like "holy cow, you're so lucky this is amazing, you have your own apartment" meanwhile I was annoyed I couldn't keep up financially with my trust fund boyfriend who had $3 million a year to piss away with random trips to Bermuda. My CFO was jealous of the Principal who could take netjets and didn't have to fly first class everywhere. The NetJets guy was jealous of the billionaire principal who had his own jet. That billionaire was jealous of the main money dude who had family money inherited from the crusades. They all fought with their wives over private school tuition and horses. Everyone drank, did tons of drugs, had dramatic affairs and fought like cats and dogs with their families.
I left finance and went into healthcare and realized I'm pretty damn happy living a simple life. I kept a $1500 belt I bought from Henry Bendels that's incredibly ugly as a reminder of dumb decisions and having too much money to piss away on stupid crap!
Read Blood Diamonds: Tracing the Deadly Path of the World's Most Precious Stones Book by Greg Campbell. Reading that made me realize how our planet has finite resources and I just I wanted to cleave the my own consumption habits so stopped needless shopping for "fun" and started being a stubborn bastard about driving my 12 year old Hyundai into the ground. It's not much but it's my own private rebellion against the gaping maw of endless consumerism.
Worship your family, friends, love ones, health, music, doing things that make you feel alive, shared experiences and nature over shiny toys and stuff that just sits around collecting dust and looking pretty.
At the end of the day, we're all the same food for worms anyways no matter our net worth. Enjoy your friendships, realize they probably have their own internal struggles and problems they're dealing with and try to be there for them in whatever way you can!
>That billionaire was jealous of the main money dude who had family money inherited from the crusades.
Illuminati confirmed.
On a serious note, being born into wealth is a travesty of sorts. People who are tend to experience a reality that is far removed from that of the average person, and as such can't identify nor relate. They are robbed of a certain type of life. Yet, enormous wealth confers power that can be exercised over common people—despite such an upbringing rendering one ill-suited to exercise said power. It's a timeless problem, I suppose.
Illuminati confirmed.
On a serious note, being born into wealth is a travesty of sorts. People who are tend to experience a reality that is far removed from that of the average person, and as such can't identify nor relate. They are robbed of a certain type of life. Yet, enormous wealth confers power that can be exercised over common people—despite such an upbringing rendering one ill-suited to exercise said power. It's a timeless problem, I suppose.
You’re exactly right- but it isn’t a timeless problem. Government has the ability to reform inheritance and taxation.
However, theres no political will, because those with money, can lobby better than those without.
Ironically America rejected the monarchy, and yet has replaced it with an oligarchy.
However, theres no political will, because those with money, can lobby better than those without.
Ironically America rejected the monarchy, and yet has replaced it with an oligarchy.
>You’re exactly right- but it isn’t a timeless problem.
It's a timeless problem insofar that it dates back to ancient times while remaining unsolved today.
It's a timeless problem insofar that it dates back to ancient times while remaining unsolved today.
> Government has the ability to reform inheritance and taxation. However, theres no political will
IMHO it is not right to try to make people that earn more than us the target to be sacked. I think it is a bad thing. It is not a matter of you have less or you have more . It is a matter of respecting people who make money legally or inherit it by the will of their own relatives or whatever. I do not think anyone should be entitled to put hands into that for any single reason whatsoever unless that money has been stolen or made in illicit ways. That is the only valid reason IMHO.
IMHO it is not right to try to make people that earn more than us the target to be sacked. I think it is a bad thing. It is not a matter of you have less or you have more . It is a matter of respecting people who make money legally or inherit it by the will of their own relatives or whatever. I do not think anyone should be entitled to put hands into that for any single reason whatsoever unless that money has been stolen or made in illicit ways. That is the only valid reason IMHO.
There is a sound argument that to create wealth you need a society. We all contribute to it and if we didn’t there wouldn’t be a society and even if you had a billion dollar or a few tons of gold you couldn’t get anything.
At the point where the concentration of wealth in the hands of a tiny fraction of members of society becomes detrimental to the functioning of our society it is necessary to redistribute before society stops functioning.
How you feel about isn’t very important.
At the point where the concentration of wealth in the hands of a tiny fraction of members of society becomes detrimental to the functioning of our society it is necessary to redistribute before society stops functioning.
How you feel about isn’t very important.
If I build a raft out of driftwood, risk my life in deep water, and bring back nurishment for my family while you starve on land; its to my advantage to help you but its by no means my obligation nor am I better off because of "society". Its not a zero sum game and individual effort is not dependent on an imaginary collective.
If you built that raft using plans, materials, and labor of society, then you risk your life to go out to the deep water to get food, then your contribution is just the last bit. To suggest it’s so important that the others involved deserve no spoils of your work (put another way - you say your effort deserves more spoils or sole control of the spoils) - then you’re selfish at the very least (although I’d say you’re among the worst kinds of humans to share society with) and exactly the reason why laws that extract aggressively from the wealthy are the only way to inch capitalism toward something resembling equity for most.
That would be true if you get plans, materials and labor for free. What you do is to pay for it under mutual agreement. So you do not contribute the last bit. You contribute in all the chain, because each of those people got what they wanted so that you can build what you wanted.
Your argumentation is incorrect.
By the way, what is equity? If you come spoil me because I make money, what kind of equity is that if you do it to me just because I make money? Equity would be to not spoil anyone. Trying to punish them on the basis that they make money (or that they make little, I do not care) is not equity. It is something else.
Your argumentation is incorrect.
By the way, what is equity? If you come spoil me because I make money, what kind of equity is that if you do it to me just because I make money? Equity would be to not spoil anyone. Trying to punish them on the basis that they make money (or that they make little, I do not care) is not equity. It is something else.
Would you support 99% of your income be extracted because you contributed only the last bit?
On top of that it is not true you contributed the last bit. Take a look at my reply. You contribute in all the chain, always.
There is no other way. You are not going to get anything for free in that chain. Every step in the chain, from employing to get products to work to deliver your stuff are paid in one way or another.
There is no other way. You are not going to get anything for free in that chain. Every step in the chain, from employing to get products to work to deliver your stuff are paid in one way or another.
To create wealth you need a society. But it is not less true that the society makes you wealthy because they need YOU. It is an exchange.
When it is detrimental? Who decides that? I am against monopolies. Telling from offices all the others what to do or not when they are not harming anyone is also a monopoly. Governments are monopolies in many areas.
What makes you think that with fewer regulations there would be even more uneven wealth? I cannot reply to this, since it is just fiction, but fewer regulations means more services, which unfavors monopolies and drops prices for services. Making people more elligible for acces to those services as well.
When it is detrimental? Who decides that? I am against monopolies. Telling from offices all the others what to do or not when they are not harming anyone is also a monopoly. Governments are monopolies in many areas.
What makes you think that with fewer regulations there would be even more uneven wealth? I cannot reply to this, since it is just fiction, but fewer regulations means more services, which unfavors monopolies and drops prices for services. Making people more elligible for acces to those services as well.
What happens when the wealthy people decide that they don't like what you have planned for them and decide to set up somewhere else? Exit visas?
Wealthy people get to choose which jurisdiction they submit themselves to. That's just how the world is.
Wealthy people get to choose which jurisdiction they submit themselves to. That's just how the world is.
That's where global taxation comes in. See e.g: https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/1/22756934/g20-oecd-15-perc...
Did you know that's only covering 19 countries + EU?
Is there strong evidence that the concentration of wealth has reached the point where that is detrimental to a point where society is in danger of stopping functioning?
> society is in danger of stopping functioning
We shouldn't have to wait for society to nearly break down in some catastrophic way before we try to make things better.
Some sort of society will continue to "function", but it is likely to be a worse society for everyone, even the ones nearer the top of the wealth curve as they will constantly be worried about being robbed etc.
We shouldn't have to wait for society to nearly break down in some catastrophic way before we try to make things better.
Some sort of society will continue to "function", but it is likely to be a worse society for everyone, even the ones nearer the top of the wealth curve as they will constantly be worried about being robbed etc.
At the same time, we should not be taxing people who make societies work with their money on the basis of "just in case" when the "just in case" means deincentivating those people, which create the wealth in the first place, and, on top of that, stealing them in the name of redistribution without any evidence of doing something good.
In fact, I would say there is plenty of evidence that too much redistribution impoverishes societies and, on top of that intervention, there is always a layer of corruption, way more than in more free countries (free as in non-economic intervention to wealth).
In fact, I would say there is plenty of evidence that too much redistribution impoverishes societies and, on top of that intervention, there is always a layer of corruption, way more than in more free countries (free as in non-economic intervention to wealth).
I do not agree at all. Governments should try to make life fair for people. In my opinion, once a person reaches something like $10M net worth (I took a number purely based on the current 1% of wealth in the US, but I’m not married to it), taxes should go to 100% and the government should use the proceeds to provide free services to the population, like education, healthcare, affordable housing and infrastructure.
I am saying this very naively without reflecting on the effects it would have on the economy, the inflationary forces and the overall corporate productivity. So I realize my view is mostly a romantic utopia, but nobody should be allowed to hoard billions, especially by inheritance.
I am saying this very naively without reflecting on the effects it would have on the economy, the inflationary forces and the overall corporate productivity. So I realize my view is mostly a romantic utopia, but nobody should be allowed to hoard billions, especially by inheritance.
The problem with this is that wealth often means ownership of capital, capital often means ownership of a private company, and so you have a peculiar situation where the government takes gradual ownership of your business once it starts to do well.
There's probably a way to work around this by making it non-voting stock or something, but it's still an inherent dampener on growth, because there's no incentive to grow, and on RnD, because there's no concentration of capital. A silicon fab is worth billions; does your system imply that the only way to build one is to either arrange a consortium of 10,000 people or government funding? HN exists because of PayPal; should the PayPal money have been spent entirely on free services? How are you going to stop the black market[0]? What are the alternate routes to power in your society, and are they better than acquiring money?
You can envisage worlds where this does function, but there's a lot of work to put in regarding the specifics, and doing the work makes you realise their might be a lot of downsides.
[0] Around 80% of North Koreans' income was once acquired through the black market: https://web.archive.org/web/20110924095232/http://www.atimes...
There's probably a way to work around this by making it non-voting stock or something, but it's still an inherent dampener on growth, because there's no incentive to grow, and on RnD, because there's no concentration of capital. A silicon fab is worth billions; does your system imply that the only way to build one is to either arrange a consortium of 10,000 people or government funding? HN exists because of PayPal; should the PayPal money have been spent entirely on free services? How are you going to stop the black market[0]? What are the alternate routes to power in your society, and are they better than acquiring money?
You can envisage worlds where this does function, but there's a lot of work to put in regarding the specifics, and doing the work makes you realise their might be a lot of downsides.
[0] Around 80% of North Koreans' income was once acquired through the black market: https://web.archive.org/web/20110924095232/http://www.atimes...
> A silicon fab is worth billions; the only way to build one is to either arrange a consortium of 10,000 people or government funding
That's how most large stuff gets built now. "a consortium of 10,000 people" is a corporation. There are lots of them on the NYSE etc.. Government funding also happens a lot.
Federal Tax rates in the USA when Intel was founded were 70%.
That's how most large stuff gets built now. "a consortium of 10,000 people" is a corporation. There are lots of them on the NYSE etc.. Government funding also happens a lot.
Federal Tax rates in the USA when Intel was founded were 70%.
the consortiums on the NYSE are investing to be richer in the future. If you've already hit the $10M cap, what's the point? If your semi fab investment does well, you have to sell something else to stay within the law.
You don't just have to sell your assets, you have to spend the money from the sale too. If you still want to improve your future, that means you spend it on things that don't show up as wealth. Some of those are going to be great (education, prestige from endowments, charitable donations), but others are less so (bribery, lobbying, attaining political power, money laundering, self-interested "charities" like building a park next to your own house).
“…peculiar situation where the government takes gradual ownership of your business once it starts to do well.”
I get the gist od the argument, but to call it ownership is perverse. It’s like insurance companies and their ~$300 salvage fee they charge if you have an accident and the repair cost is greater than the ‘value’ of the vehicle. They argue if they pay you for the full value of your vehicle, they are in effect buying the vehicle from you. If you decide to keep the vehicle, they will attempt to claw ‘salvage value’ or the amount they get from a junk yard. So far I’m 1 for 1, arguing the vehicle has to be for sale for ownership to pass to another.
Another thing I find perverse is the expectation of continual year to year growth—-to infinity.
I get the gist od the argument, but to call it ownership is perverse. It’s like insurance companies and their ~$300 salvage fee they charge if you have an accident and the repair cost is greater than the ‘value’ of the vehicle. They argue if they pay you for the full value of your vehicle, they are in effect buying the vehicle from you. If you decide to keep the vehicle, they will attempt to claw ‘salvage value’ or the amount they get from a junk yard. So far I’m 1 for 1, arguing the vehicle has to be for sale for ownership to pass to another.
Another thing I find perverse is the expectation of continual year to year growth—-to infinity.
>taxes should go to 100% and the government should use the proceeds to provide free services to the population, like education, healthcare, affordable housing and infrastructure
There won't be too many proceeds because people would simply stop working at that point. I'm far from being taxed at 100% (~50% marginal all in) and my motivation to increase my pay is already very low. I optimize for fewer hours worked at the same pay now.
There won't be too many proceeds because people would simply stop working at that point. I'm far from being taxed at 100% (~50% marginal all in) and my motivation to increase my pay is already very low. I optimize for fewer hours worked at the same pay now.
> I'm far from being taxed at 100% (~50% marginal all in) and my motivation to increase my pay is already very low.
Do you think that's because you're already making enough money to put you at or near the top tax bracket? Sounds like your lack of motivation is because you're already making enough and don't need more, not that the government might get an extra 8% out of you.
Do you think that's because you're already making enough money to put you at or near the top tax bracket? Sounds like your lack of motivation is because you're already making enough and don't need more, not that the government might get an extra 8% out of you.
I would definitely work (a bit but not infinitely) more if taxes were significantly lower.
The math is pretty simple. Everyone has 24 hours in a day. I get paid X to work Y hours. My free time Z is 24-Y hours. It's not worth it to trade any more of my remaining Z hours just to have >50% immediately taken away. I don't get any more hours in a day by working more. Instead, I increase my hourly income (the accurate value of my labor) by cutting Y to 1/2 or 1/3 while still making X. I work less, have more free time, and government doesn't make more from my labor than I do. Easy. (Note: If I were to magically find a job that paid twice as much with the same crazy good work-life balance, I would of course take it regardless of marginal taxes. But such magic is hard to come by and not worth the risk at this point.)
Advanced version: on top of the marginal rate being 50%, I live in an expensive place where not only does it get taxed higher as if I'm uber rich, but I get to pay more for all of my expenses. It's like a double fuck you. Even less motivation. This stuff is real and anyone who's in my position has given it some thought even if it's not so formulaic, hence the outflow of people from CA to cheaper, less tax-y places.
The math is pretty simple. Everyone has 24 hours in a day. I get paid X to work Y hours. My free time Z is 24-Y hours. It's not worth it to trade any more of my remaining Z hours just to have >50% immediately taken away. I don't get any more hours in a day by working more. Instead, I increase my hourly income (the accurate value of my labor) by cutting Y to 1/2 or 1/3 while still making X. I work less, have more free time, and government doesn't make more from my labor than I do. Easy. (Note: If I were to magically find a job that paid twice as much with the same crazy good work-life balance, I would of course take it regardless of marginal taxes. But such magic is hard to come by and not worth the risk at this point.)
Advanced version: on top of the marginal rate being 50%, I live in an expensive place where not only does it get taxed higher as if I'm uber rich, but I get to pay more for all of my expenses. It's like a double fuck you. Even less motivation. This stuff is real and anyone who's in my position has given it some thought even if it's not so formulaic, hence the outflow of people from CA to cheaper, less tax-y places.
People aren’t moving out of CA to less tax-y places. They’re moving to cheaper places (with less to offer).
There’s a net migration of rich people into CA (and there always has been). It’s the lower income that move out because they simply can’t afford CA. Rich people can afford CA and so they move here.
There’s a net migration of rich people into CA (and there always has been). It’s the lower income that move out because they simply can’t afford CA. Rich people can afford CA and so they move here.
Many wealthy SWEs are moving to Texas and Florida for reasons that boil down to “no state tax” and “cheaper”, both points I’ve explained the math behind.
This isn’t really a political point. I like living in California (for now) and wouldn’t move to either of the other states just for the savings. Not worth it.
This isn’t really a political point. I like living in California (for now) and wouldn’t move to either of the other states just for the savings. Not worth it.
Great! Let’s put a wealth tax of 10% a year in addition to the 100% marginal tax rate, that will move some asses!
Move to another country?
America taxes its citizens globally, so they can't escape just by moving.
they can, they would just have to give up their citizenship
Easily solved investing most of their money into buying a European or Chinese company and putting a trusting non US citizen at charge. Convenience flags are used since decades.
10m+ is not the money you earn by working. It's money you earn by owning something.
If you work in tech, you might make 10 million in 30 years or so. What are you owning at that point, stocks? And what's wrong with making money by owning something?
1) After having worked in tech for 30years, value of your stocks/real estate will far exceed the sum of all your salaries received.
2) Nothing wrong, just stating the facts.
2) Nothing wrong, just stating the facts.
It isn't even a romantic utopia, it is more like a living hell.
Rich people create businesses and jobs, that is usually how they are wealthy. If the marginal tax rate guess up to 100% sorry 10 million, there is very little incentive for people to earn more than 10 million. And either they will stop trying to earn, out they will move.
On top of that, these people don't earn as much as you think they do.
In addition, these people don't burn money, they spend it. Which allows others to earn money.
Other than butler or yacht captain, what jobs do rich people create?
Over half of the jobs held by HN posters, for starters.
Well, that's a non-answer. What types of jobs are those?
Are you suggesting you should qualify the jobs people create? The important thing is if someone wants to do it or not.
> Are you suggesting you should qualify the jobs people create?
Well, I started by saying that the only jobs were yacht captains and butlers (slight exaggeration) and was told that many of the jobs were things people on this message board had. So, yeah, that's what the topic is.
Well, I started by saying that the only jobs were yacht captains and butlers (slight exaggeration) and was told that many of the jobs were things people on this message board had. So, yeah, that's what the topic is.
Google SWE, Amazon SWE, Meta SWE, Netflix SWE, Microsoft SWE, AirBnB SWE, Dropbox SWE, Hooli SWE,…
How are any of those jobs "created by rich people"?
Google SWE: billionaire Google founders Sergey Brin and Larry Page
Amazon SWE: "richest man in the world" Jeff Bezos
Meta SWE: billionaire founder Mark Zuckerberg
Netflix SWE: billionaire Reed Hastings
Microsoft SWE: "richest man in the world" Bill Gates
Then we get into the "mere" hundreds of millions.
They created those jobs, and obviously they're very, very wealthy.
Amazon SWE: "richest man in the world" Jeff Bezos
Meta SWE: billionaire founder Mark Zuckerberg
Netflix SWE: billionaire Reed Hastings
Microsoft SWE: "richest man in the world" Bill Gates
Then we get into the "mere" hundreds of millions.
They created those jobs, and obviously they're very, very wealthy.
literally every company that is funded by YC is funded by rich people hoping to get richer.
> taxes should go to 100% and the government should use the proceeds to provide free services
I think you are pretty cruel to people that produce useful things for others. You are saying that people who offer something valuable for others should be mercilessly punished.
What you are saying is that people that contribute less than these people to society should be gifted with the effort of people that are useful to the society, making the wealthy (I mean licit wealth, of course, not criminal one) a means for others to live in better conditions.
Also, you are proposing to violate the principle of people being equal under the law. If I earn xyz, they spoil me, if I earn "too much". If I earn nothing and do not contribute in any meaningful way (even to sustain myself), then I am a blessed person that can get things for free.
Not a good arrangement to create wealth for others, if you ask me. Besides being terribly unfair.
I think you are pretty cruel to people that produce useful things for others. You are saying that people who offer something valuable for others should be mercilessly punished.
What you are saying is that people that contribute less than these people to society should be gifted with the effort of people that are useful to the society, making the wealthy (I mean licit wealth, of course, not criminal one) a means for others to live in better conditions.
Also, you are proposing to violate the principle of people being equal under the law. If I earn xyz, they spoil me, if I earn "too much". If I earn nothing and do not contribute in any meaningful way (even to sustain myself), then I am a blessed person that can get things for free.
Not a good arrangement to create wealth for others, if you ask me. Besides being terribly unfair.
> The law, in its majestic equality, forbids all men to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets and to steal bread-the rich as well as the poor.
-Anatole France
Turn it up to $100 million instead of $10. What you call unfair, is obscene, that outsized level of influence that one person should be able to have on society. The problem is the sheer amount of wealth so far beyond what a single person could use up in one life, while others languish and go hungry. Capitalism is merely a way of organizing society. The cruelty doesn't have to be the point. In order to incentivize the rich, we give them money. To incentivize the poor, we take more away. Who then go hungry. Is that the American dream? That I should be able to afford $1,500 bottles of champagne while my countrymen starve for not working hard enough?
-Anatole France
Turn it up to $100 million instead of $10. What you call unfair, is obscene, that outsized level of influence that one person should be able to have on society. The problem is the sheer amount of wealth so far beyond what a single person could use up in one life, while others languish and go hungry. Capitalism is merely a way of organizing society. The cruelty doesn't have to be the point. In order to incentivize the rich, we give them money. To incentivize the poor, we take more away. Who then go hungry. Is that the American dream? That I should be able to afford $1,500 bottles of champagne while my countrymen starve for not working hard enough?
You are missing something here: if I earn little, I can build a business to earn more.
If you are a worker you are exchanging comfortability for risk. You will make less, for sure. I am myself employed. But every month I get the bill. If you do not want that, risk your capital.
I wonder if it is so bad to work so hard for others, why don't more people build a business? There must be something we are not being honest about here, otherwise everyone would build one.
By the way, noone that makes their own wealth are to be blamed of the bad luck of others. I think we should help those people you mention. Those people starving. But voluntarily or offering them the chance to cooperate with the society. Unless they have some handicap, if they do not want to cooperate it is not me who is to be blamed. In that case, it would be them who are the person to look at for trying to live from others. And for that, it does not matter I can afford that champagne or not.
Besides that, the fact that people like that exist does not mean other people are poorer. I could open a website now and get rich and I would not be making anyone poorer, just making myself richer. And probably others, to operate the website itself.
If you are a worker you are exchanging comfortability for risk. You will make less, for sure. I am myself employed. But every month I get the bill. If you do not want that, risk your capital.
I wonder if it is so bad to work so hard for others, why don't more people build a business? There must be something we are not being honest about here, otherwise everyone would build one.
By the way, noone that makes their own wealth are to be blamed of the bad luck of others. I think we should help those people you mention. Those people starving. But voluntarily or offering them the chance to cooperate with the society. Unless they have some handicap, if they do not want to cooperate it is not me who is to be blamed. In that case, it would be them who are the person to look at for trying to live from others. And for that, it does not matter I can afford that champagne or not.
Besides that, the fact that people like that exist does not mean other people are poorer. I could open a website now and get rich and I would not be making anyone poorer, just making myself richer. And probably others, to operate the website itself.
taxes should go to 100% and the government should use the proceeds
What proceeds?
What proceeds?
I cannot disagree more. There is a simple principle in life: we must cooperate to survive. The moment we subsidize people getting something for free it materially changes motivation to work, which is a slow but fatal death. Free doesn’t exist. Everyone must earn their keep.
Do schoolchildren need to earn their education?
After they receive their education and mature into fully functioning adults, of course.
That's the expectation built into all modern societies. That's what it means to pay tax when you grow up.
That's clearly not how it works. Kids who drop out of primary/secondary education don't get to pay lower taxes in adulthood. Taxes pay for current spending, and the taxes you pay are in return for living in a society.
This is too literal a view of the world that doesn't help progress the discussion. Obviously no child pays for exactly the chair they sat on in the classroom, or the piece of chalk they used to write on a blackboard, or whatever they use in classrooms these days.
When I say "you pay for your own schooling through taxes" I'm saying that most countries have tax systems where citizens contribute according to their earnings / net-worth, a share of the costs of running all of the parts of society that aren't privately owned - or some approximation of this idea.
This means that if you're paying your taxes, the implication is that you're paying "your share" of running education for society and someone did that for you when you were a kid. Maybe you're paying for iPads in 2022 for other people's kids where you only had chalk, but some other schmucks also paid the doctors salary (unless you're in the US I guess? not sure how that works there) that delivered your birth and nobody expected you to hand over a dollar bill as a newborn to pay for yourself.
When I say "you pay for your own schooling through taxes" I'm saying that most countries have tax systems where citizens contribute according to their earnings / net-worth, a share of the costs of running all of the parts of society that aren't privately owned - or some approximation of this idea.
This means that if you're paying your taxes, the implication is that you're paying "your share" of running education for society and someone did that for you when you were a kid. Maybe you're paying for iPads in 2022 for other people's kids where you only had chalk, but some other schmucks also paid the doctors salary (unless you're in the US I guess? not sure how that works there) that delivered your birth and nobody expected you to hand over a dollar bill as a newborn to pay for yourself.
But that's exactly the distinction that matters. Treating the services one has received as a debt implies that one must pay back that debt and is free of any other obligation. In reality, as you're pointing out, we're all contributing to the current and future wellbeing of each other, and we all benefited from others' contributions in the past.
Pay-it-back vs. invest/pay-it-forward have quite different political implications, and the fact that society does and always has been in pay-it-forward mode gives lie to the earlier commenter's claim that subsidies are slow but fatal.
Pay-it-back vs. invest/pay-it-forward have quite different political implications, and the fact that society does and always has been in pay-it-forward mode gives lie to the earlier commenter's claim that subsidies are slow but fatal.
> once a person reaches something like $10M net worth
I'll re-write your proposal:
"Once a person reaches something like $10M net worth they start donating huge sums of money to the charities they have created and who has their family members on board. One of them fully restored and is doing the maintenance on an authentic Gulfstream aircraft from the beginning of the century! An other one has created a school for the (still minor so he can’t claim his $10M yet) heir and a fund to send one student (chosen by the family) to Harvard on a full ride should he be accepted".
I'll re-write your proposal:
"Once a person reaches something like $10M net worth they start donating huge sums of money to the charities they have created and who has their family members on board. One of them fully restored and is doing the maintenance on an authentic Gulfstream aircraft from the beginning of the century! An other one has created a school for the (still minor so he can’t claim his $10M yet) heir and a fund to send one student (chosen by the family) to Harvard on a full ride should he be accepted".
The concept of "government should.." is fundamentally flawed.
As soon as "government ... " starts taxing all the money from the right, then the GOVERNMENT simply BECOMES the rich, and that same power will corrupt those in power, be they democrat, republican, socialist.. it does not matter.
Once government "takes" all of the capital "for the presumed good of society", government will very rapidly become the enemy. Corruption will grow and grow, and society will be in the position of a corrupt, all powerful government.
It does not work folks. Read history, don't relive it like a bunch of idiotic sheep
Once government "takes" all of the capital "for the presumed good of society", government will very rapidly become the enemy. Corruption will grow and grow, and society will be in the position of a corrupt, all powerful government.
It does not work folks. Read history, don't relive it like a bunch of idiotic sheep
But the laws are written by the rich...
100% agree. It's the moral thing.
No one has ever prevented intergenerational wealth, and it is so innate and natural to humans that you're bordering on Soviet territory when you decide to fight all that and try and end it.
(If you're just talking about reducing it that's fine, but we already do that massively with the tax and transfer system, and I think you guys have estate taxes too.)
(If you're just talking about reducing it that's fine, but we already do that massively with the tax and transfer system, and I think you guys have estate taxes too.)
I suppose if I were to suggest a 70% tax - you might think that too would bordering on a Soviet policy?
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/high-income-earners-tax-ra...
Taxes are so nominal, that the haircut is almost non-existent. Beyond theory, I’m very well aware as my close friend inherited a property portfolio, and is now set for life.
Unfortunately, most are not as lucky, and therefore we should not rely on the inheritance lottery to act as our social security.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/high-income-earners-tax-ra...
Taxes are so nominal, that the haircut is almost non-existent. Beyond theory, I’m very well aware as my close friend inherited a property portfolio, and is now set for life.
Unfortunately, most are not as lucky, and therefore we should not rely on the inheritance lottery to act as our social security.
Reducing it should also be forbidden in my opinion.
We should not be entitled to steal the effort of others. Every person can do what they deem right with their things.
It is not a matter of how much. By that reasoning I could make legal hitting people, even if it is bad, as long as I do not kill anyone. Would that make hitting people better? I do not think so. The action is still hitting.
The same way, the action is still stealing wealth for whatever reasons. Not a right choice.
We should not be entitled to steal the effort of others. Every person can do what they deem right with their things.
It is not a matter of how much. By that reasoning I could make legal hitting people, even if it is bad, as long as I do not kill anyone. Would that make hitting people better? I do not think so. The action is still hitting.
The same way, the action is still stealing wealth for whatever reasons. Not a right choice.
In a finite world of limited resources, how couldn’t it be a question of how much?
> In a finite world of limited resources
Resources are indeed finite, but value is not. The wealth of new ideas, figurative and literal, is practically infinite. Your statement sounds very much like the zero sum fallacy.
Resources are indeed finite, but value is not. The wealth of new ideas, figurative and literal, is practically infinite. Your statement sounds very much like the zero sum fallacy.
It is not the main question. Why? Because not all wealth is done by resource-intensive business. Developed countries rely a lot on services not only primary and secondary sector.
Also, by having more offer available, prices are dropped. That benefits everyone, making them automatically wealthier, since now services are at the reach of more people at a lower price.
I do not see the problem. At least, not so far.
Indiscriminate redistribution by force has a long history of failure and it makes places poorer, not wealthier.
Also, by having more offer available, prices are dropped. That benefits everyone, making them automatically wealthier, since now services are at the reach of more people at a lower price.
I do not see the problem. At least, not so far.
Indiscriminate redistribution by force has a long history of failure and it makes places poorer, not wealthier.
It doesn’t matter what we think is right. The more the people who have, have more than the people who doesn’t have, the closer we are to a time when the don’t haves will say: “fuck that, I was born in the same world as you, why should you have all the nice things just because you were born to the right parents.
Só, the choice is simple: you can pay more taxes now, or just hope that the masses won’t do a revolution and send you to the guillotine all the while you scream about your god given constitutional rights to property.
Só, the choice is simple: you can pay more taxes now, or just hope that the masses won’t do a revolution and send you to the guillotine all the while you scream about your god given constitutional rights to property.
Or alternatively a revolution can be done the other way around: effort is a holy thing. It cannot be stolen.
Or people who provide services go to the strike and stop producing. What would happen?
Or people who provide services go to the strike and stop producing. What would happen?
Yeah. Keep believing that. It worked so well to the Romanovs
Dreaming is free. Lol! I want a world where what a rich did or what a homeless received voluntarily from someone has the same value: it cannot be stolen on any basis. No matter the explanation, justification, good will they explain they have and what they will do with it. You earn something, you manage it. You want something, you deal.
Bolsheviks are not a great example of a success story to bring up in support of your argument...
I am not telling the Bolshevik are right or that they are a success story, what I am telling is that no matter the actual fairness of stuff, if you don’t help your society eventually they will take our things by force.
Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society
No. Taxes are the proof that there are mafias and people that are not civilized enough and want to spoil the rest.
A civilized person would try to contribute to the society without promoting violence to steal other people efforts.
A civilized person would try to contribute to the society without promoting violence to steal other people efforts.
Estate taxes apply to less than 2,000 estates. And, by the way, as soon as you enter that you don't pay capital gains taxes. Meanwhile, those taxes are avoided in a thousand ways.
Until 10000 years ago, there was no such thing as intergenerational wealth or surplus, everyone was a migratory hunter gatherer before that owning what they carried. Some people in the Amazon still live like this.
So the notion that massive intergenerational wealth is innate to humans and natural is absurd. Or if it is innate and natural, then the lack of that is innate and natural as well. Most of behavioral modernity had none of this at all, it is a relatively new phenomenon, not "innately human".
So the notion that massive intergenerational wealth is innate to humans and natural is absurd. Or if it is innate and natural, then the lack of that is innate and natural as well. Most of behavioral modernity had none of this at all, it is a relatively new phenomenon, not "innately human".
There is one thing that is innate. I can tell you.
I saw it from my nephews recently. One was building a castle, like five floors high with some stuff. The younger kid comes and destroys it. His brother gets deeply annoyed and started to cry. Why? Because he spent time building it.
They are three and one years old. Do you think anyone taught them to get annoyed when the castle is destroyed? No, it is innate: what takes effort has a value for humans.
We did not have the level of wealth of today before, but every single human that puts time somewhere wants to be the ruler of that effort. That is innate I think. I saw it clearly with my nephew's reaction. Noone taught him that.
Looks like a good experiment to me.
I saw it from my nephews recently. One was building a castle, like five floors high with some stuff. The younger kid comes and destroys it. His brother gets deeply annoyed and started to cry. Why? Because he spent time building it.
They are three and one years old. Do you think anyone taught them to get annoyed when the castle is destroyed? No, it is innate: what takes effort has a value for humans.
We did not have the level of wealth of today before, but every single human that puts time somewhere wants to be the ruler of that effort. That is innate I think. I saw it clearly with my nephew's reaction. Noone taught him that.
Looks like a good experiment to me.
Your experiment speaks to how we interpret transgressions, and for that, it is true- taxes are seen as robbery.
Does your nephew now own the sand he used to build that castle? I would hope not, as I think we’d agree, many kids would suffer!
And likewise, many people believe so strongly in their ownership of money, that they don’t mind if others suffer.
Does your nephew now own the sand he used to build that castle? I would hope not, as I think we’d agree, many kids would suffer!
And likewise, many people believe so strongly in their ownership of money, that they don’t mind if others suffer.
> taxes are seen as robbery
Taxes are robbery. If you did the same to your neighbor under threat, you would end up in jail. If a mafia does that, they go to jail.
If the government does it, they do not. And they did not ask you to adhere to a contract. It works with reversed logic from what we do in real life with others.
There is no single logical justification to say it is not robbery. That is independent of whether what they do with that money is good or bad. A different discussion.
> And likewise, many people believe so strongly in their ownership of money.
Which represents just that you offered something worth that money to others, in the absense of threat or violence. So yes, now it belongs to them because of an exchange.
> that they don’t mind if others suffer.
Or even worse, some people subtract that money from us by providing no value, unlike the average of humans who at least sells something or provides a service and pretends that the people providing services or products are worse than the person subtracting in exchange of nothing under the threat of prison.
Also, it seems that to you the person being subtracted the money they earned and spent time to get it(could be money or anything else, I am talking about effort) do not suffer. I guess they do not have a soul or feelings or do not deserve the same respect as the others.
Taxes are robbery. If you did the same to your neighbor under threat, you would end up in jail. If a mafia does that, they go to jail.
If the government does it, they do not. And they did not ask you to adhere to a contract. It works with reversed logic from what we do in real life with others.
There is no single logical justification to say it is not robbery. That is independent of whether what they do with that money is good or bad. A different discussion.
> And likewise, many people believe so strongly in their ownership of money.
Which represents just that you offered something worth that money to others, in the absense of threat or violence. So yes, now it belongs to them because of an exchange.
> that they don’t mind if others suffer.
Or even worse, some people subtract that money from us by providing no value, unlike the average of humans who at least sells something or provides a service and pretends that the people providing services or products are worse than the person subtracting in exchange of nothing under the threat of prison.
Also, it seems that to you the person being subtracted the money they earned and spent time to get it(could be money or anything else, I am talking about effort) do not suffer. I guess they do not have a soul or feelings or do not deserve the same respect as the others.
> Taxes are robbery.
I'm fine with you not paying taxes, as long as you leave my country and renounce your citizenship. After that, make whatever you want on a boat in the ocean or in Somalia. But no one who thinks taxes are theft ever does that, because they want all the benefits of society my taxes pay for.
I'm fine with you not paying taxes, as long as you leave my country and renounce your citizenship. After that, make whatever you want on a boat in the ocean or in Somalia. But no one who thinks taxes are theft ever does that, because they want all the benefits of society my taxes pay for.
Why renounce citizenship? I have several citizenships, and only US asks for my money while I reside elsewhere and don't consume any of its "services".
You consume the services of a country regardless of where you reside when you are a citizen, even if you don't consume much. But, yeah, Trump really fucked dual US citizens on that one (before 2017 you "had to pay US taxes" but you deducted the taxes of whatever country you were living in, which given the US's lower tax rate meant it was meaningless.)
I'm fine with you having to renounce your citizenship if your point is "taxes are theft" and you want to avoid them. If you wanna go your own way, fine. But then go your own way.
I'm fine with you having to renounce your citizenship if your point is "taxes are theft" and you want to avoid them. If you wanna go your own way, fine. But then go your own way.
All wrong. 1) I don't consume any "services". 2) Sure you can deduct your home country taxes, what are you talking about.
I am not asking to be provided services I do not pay for.
I am not claiming I should have roads and health care and all and that taxes are theft at the same time. I am saying that taxes are theft on the basis that noone asked me what to pay or not.
The proof that things are terribly managed, at least in my country (Spain), is that we have a 120% GDP debt.
We are making new-born be born with a debt. Is that the right thing to do? For me that is immoral, unless you are that kind of person that thinks that we do a default and done, which would mean you are not a person that has a word to be believed. So what are the alternatives?
I am not claiming I should have roads and health care and all and that taxes are theft at the same time. I am saying that taxes are theft on the basis that noone asked me what to pay or not.
The proof that things are terribly managed, at least in my country (Spain), is that we have a 120% GDP debt.
We are making new-born be born with a debt. Is that the right thing to do? For me that is immoral, unless you are that kind of person that thinks that we do a default and done, which would mean you are not a person that has a word to be believed. So what are the alternatives?
If you, or the newborn, leave Spain and renounce your citizenship they're not going to assign you a percentage of the national debt. Feel free to move to Somalia and pay no taxes and not be responsible for the national debt.
You can go to Somalia, it is not the place I want to be in but you seem to be obsessed about Somalia.
I will give you some clues: Taiwan, Singapore, Cyprus (Greek part, of course), Estonia, Georgia, South Korea, Switzerland: and probably also many of the places you call a tax haven.
You can go to Somalia if you feel like.
I will give you some clues: Taiwan, Singapore, Cyprus (Greek part, of course), Estonia, Georgia, South Korea, Switzerland: and probably also many of the places you call a tax haven.
You can go to Somalia if you feel like.
what makes you think I should be expelled from the place I live just because I think making people be born in debt is bad? I am a second-class person in my own natural place?
That is what I am in the process of doing.
You seem to be saying that anything short of living your philosophical ideals is hypocrisy.
There are a lot of government policies I think should be criminal, but nobody suggests that my only options are accept the policy or completely denounce society.
I think that the large telecoms are built on theft from society and that copyright laws are too extensive. Should I leave society to go live on Sealand?
There are a lot of government policies I think should be criminal, but nobody suggests that my only options are accept the policy or completely denounce society.
I think that the large telecoms are built on theft from society and that copyright laws are too extensive. Should I leave society to go live on Sealand?
That's not the point, you're arguing some parts of the implicit contract package deal you get given when you are born are not perfect. They are arguing that they should be able to sign such an agreement and that it shouldn't be implicit when you're born so that you could renounce this contract - which only works for hermits or self entitled people that came into some money and haven't had the inclination to read how a society functions.
You're pretty unfair with your criticism. I wasn't claiming you must reject all of society if you disagree with any aspect. My point was that you can avoid taxes - they happen to be 100% optional. And yet no person who claims taxes are theft is willing to do so.
To use an analogy, you're saying "look, not every restaurant serves your favorite food, why do you call people hypocrites who go out to eat at those places" and I'm saying "the people I call hypocrites are the ones who claim it's a moral imperative to refuse to tip or even pay the check who insist on going out to eat"
To use an analogy, you're saying "look, not every restaurant serves your favorite food, why do you call people hypocrites who go out to eat at those places" and I'm saying "the people I call hypocrites are the ones who claim it's a moral imperative to refuse to tip or even pay the check who insist on going out to eat"
In what way are taxes 100% optional? In the sense that using AT&T is optional because I can move of I don't like it?
I don't follow your restaurant analogy. Someone can recognize that tipping is harmful to the wait staff, but continue to tip knowing that to do otherwise would only hurt the wait staff and not the restaurant.
I don't follow your restaurant analogy. Someone can recognize that tipping is harmful to the wait staff, but continue to tip knowing that to do otherwise would only hurt the wait staff and not the restaurant.
I would pay for my services, happily. Give me alternatives and tell me prices. And let me choose what I use. Do not tax me on the basis of "take this pack I chose" and I set the price and you must pay.
You have tons of alternatives. You can take the "Canadian citizenship" plan (subject to approval), you can take the "US citizenship" plan (subject to approval). If you're in the EU, you can actively swap what country you reside in with it's own bundles. Heck, within most countries you can change states/territories, counties and cities to get subplans.
Or do you think you personally should be given a line-item veto to a $5 trillion federal budget? Cause that's unworkable both practically and morally.
Or do you think you personally should be given a line-item veto to a $5 trillion federal budget? Cause that's unworkable both practically and morally.
Why they manage so much budget from taxes in the first place is the real question. At least for me.
Morally the right thing to do is to ask EACH person what budget they want to spend on what and have a BINDING contract on that.
When you buya house or sign a contract witha telco company you pay for what you were offered and you can claim any deviation for that. I do not accept it has to be different with a government.
Of course, I would not ask for using a road or health care. I buy an insurance, pay a toll for roads or whatever. And we would save money, at least in Spain, where taxes are abusive by all measures.
Morally the right thing to do is to ask EACH person what budget they want to spend on what and have a BINDING contract on that.
When you buya house or sign a contract witha telco company you pay for what you were offered and you can claim any deviation for that. I do not accept it has to be different with a government.
Of course, I would not ask for using a road or health care. I buy an insurance, pay a toll for roads or whatever. And we would save money, at least in Spain, where taxes are abusive by all measures.
This Randian view of taxes is exhausting. If taxation is theft, then you're complicit every time you drive on a road. For the sake of your conscience, the only moral thing to do is to move into the woods and depend on nothing and nobody.
Good luck.
Good luck.
Why? I can imagine a toll on roads and being paid per use. Why they do not do that? Ah, yes, because that would mean there is not justification for these people to exist, like with many other things.
The duty of the governments is to kidnap and monopolize services on the basis that you owe them something because they provided you that, when, in fact, there are alternatives.
But even if they were useful on their own right, you could optionally pay or not in the taxes (that would not be taxes actually) and acquire or lose the right to use certain services.
Why they do not do that, and later accuse you of bad citizen wanting people to die, to not have education or that you cannot use roads? Because they are desperate to justify their own existence and by kidnapping these services they have their justification to exist.
The duty of the governments is to kidnap and monopolize services on the basis that you owe them something because they provided you that, when, in fact, there are alternatives.
But even if they were useful on their own right, you could optionally pay or not in the taxes (that would not be taxes actually) and acquire or lose the right to use certain services.
Why they do not do that, and later accuse you of bad citizen wanting people to die, to not have education or that you cannot use roads? Because they are desperate to justify their own existence and by kidnapping these services they have their justification to exist.
If you're not satisfied with the service of your current provider, you are free to take your business to the premises of another service provider who had chosen to implement plans that are more suited to your needs.
I don't mean to be snarky, but putting it in more business terms. For some services the service provider offers several alternative plans, some have only a single one-size-fits-all plan
I don't mean to be snarky, but putting it in more business terms. For some services the service provider offers several alternative plans, some have only a single one-size-fits-all plan
Not a provider but a forced provider.
> There is no single logical justification to say it is not robbery
It is the cost to you living in society; a society which provides infrastructure such as roads, education, sanitation, and food. A society which provides customers and a marketplace to trade in.
The roller coaster of watching you add and edit this comment was truly an experience. Have a great day.
It is the cost to you living in society; a society which provides infrastructure such as roads, education, sanitation, and food. A society which provides customers and a marketplace to trade in.
The roller coaster of watching you add and edit this comment was truly an experience. Have a great day.
This would be true if they came and tell me which services I am willing to pay and use. That is not what they do. What they do is to pack all things together, to extract money from there for them also, to make systems with way too many people to manage stuff that can be managed more efficiently and to pass you the bill without asking.
Of course that is robbery. Imagine they force you to eat in a certain restarant and you must eat there, because they decided so without asking. Now let us say the food should be 15 dollars and they charge you 45, without asking. This is what they do. It is totally, totally unfair.
Later they will come and tell you: hey, you can eat thanks to me! You owe me respect. When in fact, I could have gone find my own way and eat for 15. It is absurd. And robbery, of course. Noone asked me. That is illegal if you do it to someone.
It is as if a telco came and charge you a bill of 50 usd and you get mad and go and say: hey, I did not hire your services. And they reply: the contract is implicit. They would be in trouble.
Of course that is robbery. Imagine they force you to eat in a certain restarant and you must eat there, because they decided so without asking. Now let us say the food should be 15 dollars and they charge you 45, without asking. This is what they do. It is totally, totally unfair.
Later they will come and tell you: hey, you can eat thanks to me! You owe me respect. When in fact, I could have gone find my own way and eat for 15. It is absurd. And robbery, of course. Noone asked me. That is illegal if you do it to someone.
It is as if a telco came and charge you a bill of 50 usd and you get mad and go and say: hey, I did not hire your services. And they reply: the contract is implicit. They would be in trouble.
Somewhere can’t be robbery if you continue to permit it everyday… if you actually believed your words, you’d move to the middle of nowhere with no Internet and electricity or roads.
And it’s not robbery if you’re getting something from it everyday, which you clearly are because you’re posting on the Internet and drinking clean water.
And it’s not robbery if you’re getting something from it everyday, which you clearly are because you’re posting on the Internet and drinking clean water.
I'm not sure what country you are from, but my taxes to the government certainly don't pay my internet provider or water supply company...
You shifted the topic. I do not mean to not drink clean water or to not use roads.
My point is to have control on what to pay or not. When not paying, of course, I have to pay it by myself. But noone is entitled to tell me how much and in which conditions unilaterally.
Governments and stated should NOT be an exception.
My point is to have control on what to pay or not. When not paying, of course, I have to pay it by myself. But noone is entitled to tell me how much and in which conditions unilaterally.
Governments and stated should NOT be an exception.
>Taxes are robbery.
You're anti fire department?
You're anti fire department?
No, I just try to be objective here. From Cambridge dictionary. Steal:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/steal
"to take something without the permission or knowledge of the owner and keep it"
As far as I know, they do not have my permission to get my wealth.
From RAE, in Spanish, robar:
"Quitar o tomar para sí con violencia o con fuerza lo ajeno." -> To extract or remove for oneself with violence or force other people's property (ajeno in this context refers to property in spanish)
So yes, it is an objective definition of what stealing is, because you pay under the threat of jail, not by mutual agreement, as you do when you purchase something.
https://dle.rae.es/robar
"
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/steal
"to take something without the permission or knowledge of the owner and keep it"
As far as I know, they do not have my permission to get my wealth.
From RAE, in Spanish, robar:
"Quitar o tomar para sí con violencia o con fuerza lo ajeno." -> To extract or remove for oneself with violence or force other people's property (ajeno in this context refers to property in spanish)
So yes, it is an objective definition of what stealing is, because you pay under the threat of jail, not by mutual agreement, as you do when you purchase something.
https://dle.rae.es/robar
"
[deleted]
Pre-agricultural tribes could have had forms of wealth — an ornate spear or knife, a prized shawl, a special ceremonial bowl, etc — that they passed down.
It seems quite likely to me that as soon as we started crafting and carrying things around, we developed complex behaviors around who gets which things.
It seems quite likely to me that as soon as we started crafting and carrying things around, we developed complex behaviors around who gets which things.
Frequently those things were buried with the people who made them.
It is not really possible to determine who made the grave goods found next to a skeleton (or urn). Some specialization of work is seen in hunters and gatherers already. Not everyone makes their own spearheads or cotton strings etc.
I suspect that whatever wealth they did have was carefully passed to the next generation and, further, that people who didn’t do that were less likely to have their DNA represented in the modern human pool.
Revenue and earnings made via a government provided and recognized privilege of limited liability are fair game for the government to regulate (edit: and tax).
If individuals wish to operate outside of limited liability, un-shielding all their assets to the consequences of their actions, then they can keep all their revenue/earnings.
I think it's BS that limited liability orgs commit acts that damage the environment and others, pay dividends to share holders, salaries (and bonuses) to officers and employees, and then go bankrupt when they are then being held to account for their actions and leaving little to nothing to their victims because there is no ability to claw back the money they paid out.
Quid pro quo. They get limited liability for being regulated. Don't like being regulated? Then forego limited liability.
If individuals wish to operate outside of limited liability, un-shielding all their assets to the consequences of their actions, then they can keep all their revenue/earnings.
I think it's BS that limited liability orgs commit acts that damage the environment and others, pay dividends to share holders, salaries (and bonuses) to officers and employees, and then go bankrupt when they are then being held to account for their actions and leaving little to nothing to their victims because there is no ability to claw back the money they paid out.
Quid pro quo. They get limited liability for being regulated. Don't like being regulated? Then forego limited liability.
For the most part limited liability is a private agreement between you and your creditors, not a get-out-of-jail-free pass to avoid any and all consequences when you cause deliberate or negligent harm to someone who never agreed to those terms. To be sure, there have been instances where the government shielded someone from liability unjustly or failed to "pierce the corporate veil" when doing so was arguably warranted. However, such cases are very much in the minority compared to instances where limited liability is used purely to protect personal assets from being seized to pay the corporation's debts in the event of a business failure or contractual dispute.
You aren't ever going to fix that via regulation. In fact, it makes it worse as it always under a long enough timeline gets captured by the powerful and in turn it becomes a barrier to entry and we get Monopoly, Oligarchs, etc.
If you want equality of opportunity, you need to fight furiously for complete free speech and complete freedom of trade. The change has to come from the individual bottom up.
If you want equality of opportunity, you need to fight furiously for complete free speech and complete freedom of trade. The change has to come from the individual bottom up.
They renamed 'aristocracy' to 'meritocracy' and we fell for it.
The vast majority of billionaires and millionaires are self made.
Define 'self made'. How many truly started out with no significant advantages conferred by the wealth of their progenitors?
Self made means they didn't inherit their millions/billions
Not a self made millionaire, but I have seen plenty of people starting with significant advantages to crash and burn. The amount of money that can be spent on dodgy business projects, or, worse, various harmful substances, is insane.
IMHO by far the best "significant advantage" you can have is a shrewd, practical brain combined with low levels of blind arrogance and some kind of "people talent". In normal peacetime conditions, people like that tend to rise fast.
IMHO by far the best "significant advantage" you can have is a shrewd, practical brain combined with low levels of blind arrogance and some kind of "people talent". In normal peacetime conditions, people like that tend to rise fast.
Being born in the late 20th century and in a developed, wealthy country is are both massive advantages, even if your parents are middle-class school teachers (as mine were).
If those two facts constitute "significant advantages", then the obvious answer is "none of them", but that doesn't seem a productive place to draw the line.
If those two facts constitute "significant advantages", then the obvious answer is "none of them", but that doesn't seem a productive place to draw the line.
How many billionaires come from a family of middle class school teachers or the like though?
I thought we were discussing "millionaires and billionaires", not just billionaires.
I didn't introduce those terms here. I'm speaking of the 'wealthy elite', not some arbitrary dollar figure cut off. The point is that 'person born to wealthy parents continues to be wealthy' is still a common story and 'person born in rags becomes a billionaire' is non-existent. We are fed a narrative about hard work and earning, but the people at the top largely only got there by being born from the right womb.
It's timeless because it's present in all economic systems even those that espouse equality above all or communism, etc. Kim, jeung-un, Xi, Jin-ping and their circles, the Politburo and its circle. They all had whatever they wanted even if on the books it belonged to the people.
Not all social systems. A deep exploration of anthropology should give you a few examples of societies that allocate resources via complex patterns of reciprocal gifting.
Fair enough. I think small isolated societies may to some degree be able to be like that, but not any current large society.
I hear this argument a lot from socialists, but I have not seen one example of such a practice working in sufficiently large societies. It seems, historically, that societies of sufficient size have used some form of hierarchical control, and to lack that does not seem rooted in what we have seen already.
Part of the problem is that hierarchical neighboring societies tend to absorb their neighbors.
But, I agree that one would likely need some technology to scale up the reciprocity system. Money and the free market is a reciprocity system of you squint at it.
But, I agree that one would likely need some technology to scale up the reciprocity system. Money and the free market is a reciprocity system of you squint at it.
Pretty much all the societies of today are the ones that could survive millennia of endless wars and come out of them alive. Current societal systems are selected for military prowess.
(This has various exceptions, e.g. isolated places like Iceland. But there isn't any big and pacifist state out there.)
(This has various exceptions, e.g. isolated places like Iceland. But there isn't any big and pacifist state out there.)
> Worship your family, friends, love ones, health, music, doing things that make you feel alive, shared experiences and nature over shiny toys and stuff that just sits around collecting dust and looking pretty.
Agree but let’s not forget that money can give you wonderful experiences even if you are not materialistic, including the ability to not work anymore. Those are the people I am jealous of.
Agree but let’s not forget that money can give you wonderful experiences even if you are not materialistic, including the ability to not work anymore. Those are the people I am jealous of.
> including the ability to not work anymore
I have two takes on this.
The first is: I've met people who don't work. They're some of the most boring and wasteful people I've ever met.
Lying down on a beach, or watching tv 12 hours a day (random cliches), get boring after some time.
So one's going to look for something more meaningful and committed (in best case...), which brings to the second point: anything that's going to take a consistent share of one's like, inevitably becomes "work".
Morale of the story: there is no freedom from work. But there's the option to pursue the work one likes :)
I have two takes on this.
The first is: I've met people who don't work. They're some of the most boring and wasteful people I've ever met.
Lying down on a beach, or watching tv 12 hours a day (random cliches), get boring after some time.
So one's going to look for something more meaningful and committed (in best case...), which brings to the second point: anything that's going to take a consistent share of one's like, inevitably becomes "work".
Morale of the story: there is no freedom from work. But there's the option to pursue the work one likes :)
> there is no freedom from work. But there's the option to pursue the work one likes :)
True, "Freedom to pursue ones interests" is more accurate. Many on HN are blessed with some degree of interesting work, but 99% of the world is not and for them "Freedom to not work" is almost synonymous.
It's true people go in one of two directions though. I think this is easily revealed with a long enough holiday without plans, initially everyone does lazy mindless things (recovery), then people get bored and either go in search of ever more entertainment, or seek out ever more creative, explorative or intellectually stimulating activities. i.e making your own "work".
True, "Freedom to pursue ones interests" is more accurate. Many on HN are blessed with some degree of interesting work, but 99% of the world is not and for them "Freedom to not work" is almost synonymous.
It's true people go in one of two directions though. I think this is easily revealed with a long enough holiday without plans, initially everyone does lazy mindless things (recovery), then people get bored and either go in search of ever more entertainment, or seek out ever more creative, explorative or intellectually stimulating activities. i.e making your own "work".
I keep saying that I can't wait to retire so that I'll have the time to work on some games I've been wanting to create.
I haven't done them now because I don't want to spend my limited leisure time working, even if it's on something I want to create.
I haven't done them now because I don't want to spend my limited leisure time working, even if it's on something I want to create.
If you are not doing it now, or making an effort to do it now, don't be surprised when the time comes and you discover that you are not spending your days as you expected.
I retired for most of my twenties and early-thirties. It was all planned, and it ended up being one of the best decisions I have ever made, but it only created opportunity. Retirement doesn't change a person's interests or their motivation. When people receive a windfall of time, they tend to spend that time doing whatever it was they did prior, only more of it. If they watched TV in their free time, now they watch more TV. You get the idea.
My unsolicited advice: do it now.
I retired for most of my twenties and early-thirties. It was all planned, and it ended up being one of the best decisions I have ever made, but it only created opportunity. Retirement doesn't change a person's interests or their motivation. When people receive a windfall of time, they tend to spend that time doing whatever it was they did prior, only more of it. If they watched TV in their free time, now they watch more TV. You get the idea.
My unsolicited advice: do it now.
I disagree with this. I used to have passion hobbies until I became so time-poor that keeping them would mean cut the little amount of time that I spent with my family, or not being able going out of my apartment for a walk.
I am not sure what you are disagreeing with.
> The first is: I've met people who don't work. They're some of the most boring and wasteful people I've ever met.
I don't want to 'work'...doesn't mean I don't want to have the freedom to maybe 'work' if I want 60 hours per week on a side project..without worrying about paying clients.
I'm not lazy, per se. Easily distracted yes, (ADHD), but I want to build things that are important to me, and maybe others...not build things for other people anymore. If I had 500k, I'd buy land, build cheap homes, rent them out dirt cheap and work on building a worker co-op that builds software tools for unions, co-ops, etc and shared marketplaces (think like amazon/ebay) that gives money back to those who shop, sell, and work to build the platform.
Def. wouldn't go sit on a beach, have no desire to do that sort of thing. Might take the kids to Disneyland though.
I don't want to 'work'...doesn't mean I don't want to have the freedom to maybe 'work' if I want 60 hours per week on a side project..without worrying about paying clients.
I'm not lazy, per se. Easily distracted yes, (ADHD), but I want to build things that are important to me, and maybe others...not build things for other people anymore. If I had 500k, I'd buy land, build cheap homes, rent them out dirt cheap and work on building a worker co-op that builds software tools for unions, co-ops, etc and shared marketplaces (think like amazon/ebay) that gives money back to those who shop, sell, and work to build the platform.
Def. wouldn't go sit on a beach, have no desire to do that sort of thing. Might take the kids to Disneyland though.
Being a slum lord and writing software for unions sounds like a weird definition of an ideal life.
I’ve heard this before now. If you can find “flow” in whatever you’re doing then you’ll never actually feel like you’re working all that much. Flow can be achieved in any area so long as you meet the psychological requirements for it. Work absolutely is not a “sentence” for committing the sin of existence.
I'd like not to work as much as the next person who doesn't, but I must say, anecdotally, that I've never met someone who retired early, be it from FIRE, investing, or inheritance, who is living what I'd consider a good life. I'm not saying their experience isn't enjoyable for them (which may very well be all that matters), just that the appearance and impression they give off is one of sloth, indolence, and hedonism. They're not writing that great novel or learning to master the dulcimer; they're simply vacillating between loafing and indulging.
TBH, I think the "go from yuppie to hippie and it all becomes rainbows" is generally a false narrative. Money does often buy happiness. That "$75,000 a year is peak happiness" thesis does not replicate, like much of the social sciences. [1]
I'm sure your new lifestyle is suitable for you and makes you happy. But I don't believe that's generalizable.
[1]: https://archive.ph/20210127035328/https://www.vice.com/en/ar...
I'm sure your new lifestyle is suitable for you and makes you happy. But I don't believe that's generalizable.
[1]: https://archive.ph/20210127035328/https://www.vice.com/en/ar...
> Worship your family, friends, love ones, health, music, doing things that make you feel alive
Precisely this. Perhaps these friends continue to spend time with OP because they bring something enriching to their lives? I have some money and I don't look down on my friends who have less, but I also don't value it beyond being a tool. To me, money is a necessary evil and I'd rather do without. I value the richness of spirit in my friends.
Precisely this. Perhaps these friends continue to spend time with OP because they bring something enriching to their lives? I have some money and I don't look down on my friends who have less, but I also don't value it beyond being a tool. To me, money is a necessary evil and I'd rather do without. I value the richness of spirit in my friends.
There is a difference between the hedonistic treadmill and having wealth. I knew people who made hundreds of thousands a year, and just banked it so they never have to work after they turn 29.
Meanwhile, there's something condescending about talking to someone who is looking at being unable to accumulate enough wealth to do the things they want about how those things are meaningless.
Meanwhile, there's something condescending about talking to someone who is looking at being unable to accumulate enough wealth to do the things they want about how those things are meaningless.
Yeah, and it also really goes to show how she just isn't in touch with reality for people who are _poor_.
"Spend time with your friends", she says.
OK, and then not be able to go out for drinks with your friends because you can't afford to eat out? Or because you're working a 12 hour shift because you need the overtime? Or studying trying to get marketable job skills?
This discussion is full of rich, self-righteous assholes lecturing about how being wealthy isn't that great for this or that reason...
Rich people don't have to worry about losing their job because their shitty 10 year old car is breaking down. They even can afford to buy cars that actually appreciate in value.
Rich people can afford accountants to help them dodge the hell out of taxes, while poor people make mistakes on their tax forms and get slammed with extra taxes and fees.
If someone rich loses their job, they likely have multiple kinds of savings, at least an emergency fund. What a novel concept- money you have just in case there's an emergency. They have plenty of people to network with and can find another job easily.
Rich people don't have to worry about getting bent over if they need a loan.
Rich people can buy durable housing, clothing, etc instead of shit that falls apart constantly.
Rich people can afford healthy food, and have the time and energy to cook for themselves or at least get nutritious take-out, etc.
I have slowly made a bunch of friends via an activity I'm able to do because of a family member. I was invited to an activity. That activity is going to cost $100+, not including the gas to get to/from the event. That is a sixth of my monthly budget. The guy organizing the event owns a "summer car" that costs $150,000.
"Spend time with your friends", she says.
OK, and then not be able to go out for drinks with your friends because you can't afford to eat out? Or because you're working a 12 hour shift because you need the overtime? Or studying trying to get marketable job skills?
This discussion is full of rich, self-righteous assholes lecturing about how being wealthy isn't that great for this or that reason...
Rich people don't have to worry about losing their job because their shitty 10 year old car is breaking down. They even can afford to buy cars that actually appreciate in value.
Rich people can afford accountants to help them dodge the hell out of taxes, while poor people make mistakes on their tax forms and get slammed with extra taxes and fees.
If someone rich loses their job, they likely have multiple kinds of savings, at least an emergency fund. What a novel concept- money you have just in case there's an emergency. They have plenty of people to network with and can find another job easily.
Rich people don't have to worry about getting bent over if they need a loan.
Rich people can buy durable housing, clothing, etc instead of shit that falls apart constantly.
Rich people can afford healthy food, and have the time and energy to cook for themselves or at least get nutritious take-out, etc.
I have slowly made a bunch of friends via an activity I'm able to do because of a family member. I was invited to an activity. That activity is going to cost $100+, not including the gas to get to/from the event. That is a sixth of my monthly budget. The guy organizing the event owns a "summer car" that costs $150,000.
What kind of car appreciates in value?
I assume some limited edition cars appreciate in value. If you bought a 1967 Ferrari it probably appreciates in value if you avoid crashing it.
But yeah, most expensive luxury cars rich people drive decrease in value, often by quite a lot.
But yeah, most expensive luxury cars rich people drive decrease in value, often by quite a lot.
In the current US market? Pickups...
Thanks for the story. I was in the hospital yesterday for unfortunate reasons and it stuck in my mind that working in healthcare is one of the few sectors that feels worth spending one's productive years in (to me).
Well, one time I had a patient masturbate underneath his blanket and throw his semen in my eyes so it's not all sunshine and roses. After that I started wearing my glasses every day to work. We found back wayyyyy back in his chart like 250 pages deep "DO NOT LET PATIENT BE ATTENDED TO BY ANY FEMALE STAFF" that the other facility had deliberately obfuscated so that our place accept him!
There's a lot of burnt out healthcare workers for sure, it's a hard job but I would say it's always interesting, you're always learning, there's lots of diversity and ways to specialize your career path (I went into oncology research) and it truly is rewarding. Just keep your head up for flying projectiles at your face :P
Hope you're feeling better!
There's a lot of burnt out healthcare workers for sure, it's a hard job but I would say it's always interesting, you're always learning, there's lots of diversity and ways to specialize your career path (I went into oncology research) and it truly is rewarding. Just keep your head up for flying projectiles at your face :P
Hope you're feeling better!
That is insane.
What happened next? Does a patient get tossed for that? Are criminal charges brought? Did you test for any STI?
Your perspective on life is fantastic. Cheers.
What happened next? Does a patient get tossed for that? Are criminal charges brought? Did you test for any STI?
Your perspective on life is fantastic. Cheers.
> What happened next?
I pounded on the ambulance partition to my partner up front, hollered, "STOP THE GODDAMN RIG!!!!" while I grabbed a bottle of normal saline from the back, jumped out on the side of the highway and rinsed off my face like a crazy woman. The patient was like, "teehee, I'm a bad boy" and I took over driving and my male partner sat with him in the back.
We filled out an incident report form, I had some more thorough rinsing at the ER by submerging my face in cups and talked with the docs to find out you can't really fortunately get many STDs from that other than like... a stye. So I was all good although I think I got tested to be sure.
Patient got a big note in the FRONT of his chart and wasn't ever again attended by female staff.
I don't think charges were worth it to be filed for serial assaulters like that, a lot of people who live in long term care facilities are demented and have no assets so not sure exactly what they would do other than just transfer them around in the system or keep them drugged up/snowed so they don't assault people, I'm not sure. At that time I was only prehospital so we didn't get a lot of case followup on patients!
I pounded on the ambulance partition to my partner up front, hollered, "STOP THE GODDAMN RIG!!!!" while I grabbed a bottle of normal saline from the back, jumped out on the side of the highway and rinsed off my face like a crazy woman. The patient was like, "teehee, I'm a bad boy" and I took over driving and my male partner sat with him in the back.
We filled out an incident report form, I had some more thorough rinsing at the ER by submerging my face in cups and talked with the docs to find out you can't really fortunately get many STDs from that other than like... a stye. So I was all good although I think I got tested to be sure.
Patient got a big note in the FRONT of his chart and wasn't ever again attended by female staff.
I don't think charges were worth it to be filed for serial assaulters like that, a lot of people who live in long term care facilities are demented and have no assets so not sure exactly what they would do other than just transfer them around in the system or keep them drugged up/snowed so they don't assault people, I'm not sure. At that time I was only prehospital so we didn't get a lot of case followup on patients!
Thanks for sticking to it!
My mum is a nurse and so I’ve heard a lot of stories of this being common - as if being physically abused is a part of the job.
My mum is a nurse and so I’ve heard a lot of stories of this being common - as if being physically abused is a part of the job.
It's gotten really bad lately, with antivax covid patients and their family members assaulting doctors and nurses in hospitals. In some areas, health care workers are quitting in droves.
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I do not mean to shit on your post, because I liked it. But:
> I left finance and went into healthcare and realized I'm pretty damn happy living a simple life
If you made 300k per year before, how is that compatible with "living a simple life"? At that rate, with just a few years of working you can have saved up 1M in your bank account, which imho is nothing like 'living a simple life', even if you dont spend it.
> I left finance and went into healthcare and realized I'm pretty damn happy living a simple life
If you made 300k per year before, how is that compatible with "living a simple life"? At that rate, with just a few years of working you can have saved up 1M in your bank account, which imho is nothing like 'living a simple life', even if you dont spend it.
* That billionaire was jealous of the main money dude who had family money inherited from the crusades. *
I wonder how you maintain wealth across centuries.
I wonder how you maintain wealth across centuries.
There’s research on this. Check Florence Italian study rich bla bla bla on google . But to answer: gold, land, art
> fought like cats and dogs with their families.
I married into a wealthy family and I was not prepared for this. Its not easy keeping your head down.
I married into a wealthy family and I was not prepared for this. Its not easy keeping your head down.
I've seen this myself as well and really can echo that it's all relative...funnily enough i think a lot of the OPs friends probably talk about material things because they're in just as much of a "keeping up with the joneses" mindset as well
Love it!
If I could 'buy'(how ironic lol) your experience noted here I would, it seems like hard-engrained 'learned' knowledge that is hard to get through just reading.
If I could 'buy'(how ironic lol) your experience noted here I would, it seems like hard-engrained 'learned' knowledge that is hard to get through just reading.
re your second paragraph. something almost all jewish children are taught (though not all really remember, keeping up with joneses exists even within religious communities
https://www.sefaria.org.il/Pirkei_Avot.4.1?lang=bi
"who is rich? one who is happy with their lot"
https://www.sefaria.org.il/Pirkei_Avot.4.1?lang=bi
"who is rich? one who is happy with their lot"
Afterwards I feel smashed with depression as I go back to my shit rental house that I’m ashamed of.
It may sound like pat advice, but -- maybe you need to start looking for new friends.
The kind who wouldn't think twice coming over to your "shit rental" (which would probably be considered quite rich, not to mention safe and clean in much of the world). Just to hang out with you, watch a movie maybe, and share whatever kind of meal you're able to whip up on your gas stove.
Life is to short to be spent in situations of any kind where you feel uncomfortable in your skin. Even if it's not directly the fault of the people you currently hang out with.
But a good rule of thumb is: if you don't feel comfortable inviting these people to your home - or even telling them where (and in what circumstances) you live -- it's probably best to start moving on.
(And perhaps to other countries where the income distribution is far less skewed, and people are far less hung up on relative wealth and status as they are in the U.S. -- at least for a few years or so, to get over the current anxiety you're facing, and start to feel human again. But that's a side topic).
It may sound like pat advice, but -- maybe you need to start looking for new friends.
The kind who wouldn't think twice coming over to your "shit rental" (which would probably be considered quite rich, not to mention safe and clean in much of the world). Just to hang out with you, watch a movie maybe, and share whatever kind of meal you're able to whip up on your gas stove.
Life is to short to be spent in situations of any kind where you feel uncomfortable in your skin. Even if it's not directly the fault of the people you currently hang out with.
But a good rule of thumb is: if you don't feel comfortable inviting these people to your home - or even telling them where (and in what circumstances) you live -- it's probably best to start moving on.
(And perhaps to other countries where the income distribution is far less skewed, and people are far less hung up on relative wealth and status as they are in the U.S. -- at least for a few years or so, to get over the current anxiety you're facing, and start to feel human again. But that's a side topic).
> maybe you need to start looking for new friends. The kind who wouldn't think twice coming over to your "shit rental"
I think it's more complicated than that. I'm lucky enough at this point in my life to have enough money to afford a nice house and nice toys, and not worry much about money. I also have absolutely zero issue going to hang out with friends who have much less than me. I really don't care at all. Some of my happiest years were when I was younger and poor. I had just barely enough money to make ends meet most of the time, was living in a back room of a dirty little house with three other roommates, and I was living happy because I liked who I was with. I get that money and real worth are two very different things and enjoy people for who they are, not where they're at.
But sometimes I can clearly feel the awkwardness coming at me when I hang out with people who are significantly less well off than I am and they know it. I'm usually not sure how to handle it, and typically end up just not hanging out with them much. I sometimes also find similar situations hanging out with people who have a lot more than I do. With some people it works fine, with others I can tell by what they say and how they act that they're uncomfortable because of the difference.
I think it's more complicated than that. I'm lucky enough at this point in my life to have enough money to afford a nice house and nice toys, and not worry much about money. I also have absolutely zero issue going to hang out with friends who have much less than me. I really don't care at all. Some of my happiest years were when I was younger and poor. I had just barely enough money to make ends meet most of the time, was living in a back room of a dirty little house with three other roommates, and I was living happy because I liked who I was with. I get that money and real worth are two very different things and enjoy people for who they are, not where they're at.
But sometimes I can clearly feel the awkwardness coming at me when I hang out with people who are significantly less well off than I am and they know it. I'm usually not sure how to handle it, and typically end up just not hanging out with them much. I sometimes also find similar situations hanging out with people who have a lot more than I do. With some people it works fine, with others I can tell by what they say and how they act that they're uncomfortable because of the difference.
Have you seen a therapist or talked to your doctor about this? If you haven't, I think that would be a good idea.
I can't fathom why anyone would downvote this comment.
This could be a sign of self-esteem issues (or other stuff; I'm not qualified enough to speculate) that will or already does diminish their quality of life and happiness.
And if they "get over" the wealth difference, your brain will find something else. Take it from someone who spent more than two thirds of his life "getting over things" inatead of addressing the root causes. But then again, you're not me or anyone else, you're you. Everyone has their own path, but I shared mine in case it helps you find/improve your own going forward.
This could be a sign of self-esteem issues (or other stuff; I'm not qualified enough to speculate) that will or already does diminish their quality of life and happiness.
And if they "get over" the wealth difference, your brain will find something else. Take it from someone who spent more than two thirds of his life "getting over things" inatead of addressing the root causes. But then again, you're not me or anyone else, you're you. Everyone has their own path, but I shared mine in case it helps you find/improve your own going forward.
100% agree with Vanusa.
FWIW, the initial boost of happiness derived from living in nice accomodations is shortlived, after a few weeks or a month you'll likely feel about the same as before you got the nicer digs.
Once I experienced and internalized this lesson, I was able to stop caring much about my house (just keep it clean and as comfy as possible) and instead focus on the amazing people in my life who genuinely care about connecting with me regardless of fancy house circumstance. In this way it's actually a highly effective filter facilitating minimization of superficial relationships.
FWIW, the initial boost of happiness derived from living in nice accomodations is shortlived, after a few weeks or a month you'll likely feel about the same as before you got the nicer digs.
Once I experienced and internalized this lesson, I was able to stop caring much about my house (just keep it clean and as comfy as possible) and instead focus on the amazing people in my life who genuinely care about connecting with me regardless of fancy house circumstance. In this way it's actually a highly effective filter facilitating minimization of superficial relationships.
Having moved from a complete rathole apartment to a rental house recently I've come to realize, dammit this is wayyy more work to maintain and clean! This freaking sucks!! I want to go back to a tiny apartment where I didn't have to spend Saturdays cleaning the windows. :P
But hey, that must have been what you moved to Cupertino for, right?
People move to Cupertino for the school district, not for the nice house. The houses in Cupertino are, on average, modest and frumpy. Have you actually lived in Cupertino?
Let's just say Cupertino is in my blood. I wasn't thinking Atherton-scale window cleaning. Just to say -- if you move our of your ratbox and into the land of modest and frumpy, then this is what you should expect.
Maybe he actually lives in the spaceship there, it sure would be a lot of windows to clean.
>FWIW, the initial boost of happiness derived from living in nice accomodations is shortlived, after a few weeks or a month you'll likely feel about the same as before you got the nicer digs.
That hasn't been my experience. When I found my current place I was ecstatic over it and ~3 years later, I still am just as much. I have no plans of moving out unless I move cities -- it hits the spot that much for me compared to all the previous places I've lived previously.
That hasn't been my experience. When I found my current place I was ecstatic over it and ~3 years later, I still am just as much. I have no plans of moving out unless I move cities -- it hits the spot that much for me compared to all the previous places I've lived previously.
I wasn't advocating for living in a shithole. Of course you need (and everyone deserves) some base level of comfort!
Otoh, some apartments save lives.
>The kind who wouldn't think twice coming over to your "shit rental"
Is there any indication that these people don't want to come over to OPs "shit rental"?
Is there any indication that these people don't want to come over to OPs "shit rental"?
This is key. OP may be too embarrassed to invite them over. This is a mistake though, and OP would feel better if they did this.
It may sound like pat advice, but -- maybe you need to start looking for new friends.
This is good advice. However, I also think that you (the OP) also need to change your mindset.
For context on myself: I have lived most of my life in your situations like yours, until recently when I became wealthy enough to retire early.
As a kid, my family ate government assistance food. There were times when I had to look in the couch cushions for money to buy food.
For all of my life, I've known people who are very visibly wealthy. However, I was fortunate enough to learn early to hold wealth in mild disgust and also not make a big deal about it. I encourage you to develop this sort of attitude.
As randycupertino mentions above. Not only is the hedonistic treadmill is real, it's actually sort of pathetic. Many people who are rich become sort of helpless. Unable to do simple things like changing a car tire by themselves. Learn to be self sufficient and take pride in it.
The other thing to realized is that past a point money won't buy you happiness. And you are in control of where that point is.
Now, to add to what vanusa says above. You need new friends. I say this because one of my good friends is very wealthy, but I never once felt bad or envious about it. My friend's parents came from very humble backgrounds and they did a wonderful job at staying grounded and kind. This family didn't brag about money, they wouldn't enthuse whilst telling me of their good fortune.
Furthermore, I think it's very tacky and shallow to talk about wealth.
Personally, when I became wealthy, my spouse and I agreed to not tell anybody about our wealth. The only people who know the true value of our wealth are me, my spouse, our accountant, the IRS, and God.
Certainly, some people have their guesses, but there is no way for people to know the precise details. We still live in the same modest house, drive the same 10 year old car, wear the same clothes, etc.
A big reason why we haven't changed our lifestyle is because our friends and family are very important to us and we don't want what was honestly a lucky break to get in the way of those things.
To summarize:
- I've been in your shoes in the past
- You need better friends
- You also need to work on yourself and your mindset
This is good advice. However, I also think that you (the OP) also need to change your mindset.
For context on myself: I have lived most of my life in your situations like yours, until recently when I became wealthy enough to retire early.
As a kid, my family ate government assistance food. There were times when I had to look in the couch cushions for money to buy food.
For all of my life, I've known people who are very visibly wealthy. However, I was fortunate enough to learn early to hold wealth in mild disgust and also not make a big deal about it. I encourage you to develop this sort of attitude.
As randycupertino mentions above. Not only is the hedonistic treadmill is real, it's actually sort of pathetic. Many people who are rich become sort of helpless. Unable to do simple things like changing a car tire by themselves. Learn to be self sufficient and take pride in it.
The other thing to realized is that past a point money won't buy you happiness. And you are in control of where that point is.
Now, to add to what vanusa says above. You need new friends. I say this because one of my good friends is very wealthy, but I never once felt bad or envious about it. My friend's parents came from very humble backgrounds and they did a wonderful job at staying grounded and kind. This family didn't brag about money, they wouldn't enthuse whilst telling me of their good fortune.
Furthermore, I think it's very tacky and shallow to talk about wealth.
Personally, when I became wealthy, my spouse and I agreed to not tell anybody about our wealth. The only people who know the true value of our wealth are me, my spouse, our accountant, the IRS, and God.
Certainly, some people have their guesses, but there is no way for people to know the precise details. We still live in the same modest house, drive the same 10 year old car, wear the same clothes, etc.
A big reason why we haven't changed our lifestyle is because our friends and family are very important to us and we don't want what was honestly a lucky break to get in the way of those things.
To summarize:
- I've been in your shoes in the past
- You need better friends
- You also need to work on yourself and your mindset
>> For all of my life, I've known people who are very visibly wealthy. However, I was fortunate enough to learn early to hold wealth in mild disgust and also not make a big deal about it. I encourage you to develop this sort of attitude.
The OP is not wealthy enough to develop that attitude. I think that is what wealthy people forget, money does indeed solve many problems.
Being poor introduces a number of problems, and if you are not actively there, you quickly forget what it is like. That's okay.
I believe that an economic class system exists for a reason. It is easy to interact with people one above or one below your class. Beyond that it becomes more difficult, and requires more energy. It is up to individuals to decide how they want to spend that energy. And the less money someone has, the more energy it takes to do things, and vice versa.
The OP is not wealthy enough to develop that attitude. I think that is what wealthy people forget, money does indeed solve many problems.
Being poor introduces a number of problems, and if you are not actively there, you quickly forget what it is like. That's okay.
I believe that an economic class system exists for a reason. It is easy to interact with people one above or one below your class. Beyond that it becomes more difficult, and requires more energy. It is up to individuals to decide how they want to spend that energy. And the less money someone has, the more energy it takes to do things, and vice versa.
Being poor introduces a number of problems.
Among them being perpetually under (palpable, physical) stress, and pretty much always living under heavy cloud of self-doubt. And not just about why you haven't been promoted at FAANG yet, why you haven't gotten some insane payout like certain friends of yours, etc.
Among them being perpetually under (palpable, physical) stress, and pretty much always living under heavy cloud of self-doubt. And not just about why you haven't been promoted at FAANG yet, why you haven't gotten some insane payout like certain friends of yours, etc.
> Being poor
> haven't been promoted at FAANG yet
Is anyone at FAANG really poor, even if they haven't been promoted yet?
> haven't been promoted at FAANG yet
Is anyone at FAANG really poor, even if they haven't been promoted yet?
__insert rant here about how living in SV is so expensive, and how moving elsewhere to reduce my six figure salary a bit is impossible__
You misread that, they were saying that poor people have self-doubts about more serious matters than that.
It happened to me. I am not going to give you a wise answer, but a realistic one from someone with the same fears as yourself.
Like you, I had a really good and genuine relationship with those people, some were also looking up to me for career inspiration and advice (I am a senior technical leader with patents, great professional achievements, …). One IPO that put them in the $20m, out of complete luck (they were hired as simple individual contributors on “plain” projects) changed everything.
One time, after the IPO and a few quarters of the stock rising, I was told by one of them: “why do you work so hard rather than choosing a good pre IPO company and stay at the bottom and chill and retire in a couple years?”
No shit. That was the last straw. I cut all those people off my life because it was too painful to witness their change in lifestyle and attitude, and how they kept subtly rubbing it in my face at every social event, implying that their course of events was all part of a smart master plan, rather than 99% dumb luck.
I am sad for losing those connections and I have wonderful memories of the time together (vacations, “bro” trips, …), but overall I am happy about this choice, to me it’s as if the people they once were effectively died as the IPO happened.
I have done financially very well but it’s not comparable to their level, and the effort and sacrifices required from my side was easily 10X theirs. I know this should be obvious in adulthood, but life is not fair at all. I am also aware of how privileged my position is (for now), compared to the people dying of cancer in their 30s, so I don’t let it affect me too much.
Like you, I had a really good and genuine relationship with those people, some were also looking up to me for career inspiration and advice (I am a senior technical leader with patents, great professional achievements, …). One IPO that put them in the $20m, out of complete luck (they were hired as simple individual contributors on “plain” projects) changed everything.
One time, after the IPO and a few quarters of the stock rising, I was told by one of them: “why do you work so hard rather than choosing a good pre IPO company and stay at the bottom and chill and retire in a couple years?”
No shit. That was the last straw. I cut all those people off my life because it was too painful to witness their change in lifestyle and attitude, and how they kept subtly rubbing it in my face at every social event, implying that their course of events was all part of a smart master plan, rather than 99% dumb luck.
I am sad for losing those connections and I have wonderful memories of the time together (vacations, “bro” trips, …), but overall I am happy about this choice, to me it’s as if the people they once were effectively died as the IPO happened.
I have done financially very well but it’s not comparable to their level, and the effort and sacrifices required from my side was easily 10X theirs. I know this should be obvious in adulthood, but life is not fair at all. I am also aware of how privileged my position is (for now), compared to the people dying of cancer in their 30s, so I don’t let it affect me too much.
I agree.
There are two parts. One one's feelings --which one can control or perhaps at least control whether one is subject to the source of frustration. Jealousy can definitely be an issue if one finds oneself to be inadequate compared to where one could imagine oneself.
The other is the second party's attitude. And, to some extent, the second party should also more or less be themselves --that is, don't apologize for where you find yourself but also don't be completely oblivious and offend by not being aware of the situation. Have decent manners.
So, if the above are intractable, I would likely find another set of friends one is more comfortable being around. People can outgrow each other. It happens frequently.
There are two parts. One one's feelings --which one can control or perhaps at least control whether one is subject to the source of frustration. Jealousy can definitely be an issue if one finds oneself to be inadequate compared to where one could imagine oneself.
The other is the second party's attitude. And, to some extent, the second party should also more or less be themselves --that is, don't apologize for where you find yourself but also don't be completely oblivious and offend by not being aware of the situation. Have decent manners.
So, if the above are intractable, I would likely find another set of friends one is more comfortable being around. People can outgrow each other. It happens frequently.
To be analytical about this, the question about luck vs skill is a narrative which can't be proven or disproven (short of having a time machine), but both parties in this story happen to hold the version which makes would make the other feel bad, and this story comes with a status shift, so I'm not surprised at the fallout.
Anyways after seeing how things shake up in my own life, I like to joke that I would rather be lucky than anything else.
Anyways after seeing how things shake up in my own life, I like to joke that I would rather be lucky than anything else.
You probably already realize this, but almost by definition, you can never be happy with this mindset.
Unless you're the richest person on Earth, there will always be someone with more money than you. Likewise, unless you're the poorest person on Earth, there will always be someone with less money than you.
So, if you find yourself between these two extremes, a change in viewpoint is the only thing that can get you out of this funk. I have several friends (no joke) who have become billionaires over the last few years. I've slipped into periods of jealousy, but it's taken some mulling to realize that I only want what I think they have. And what is that, exactly? More "stuff"? A bigger house? How are things going to really make me feel happy? Fact is, they won't, and they can't.
I can feed myself and my family. I am healthy (now, at least--for many years, I was not). I have shelter. I have friends who I care about and who care about me. If you have these things, you have wealth--or at least enough of it to be happy.
Unless you're the richest person on Earth, there will always be someone with more money than you. Likewise, unless you're the poorest person on Earth, there will always be someone with less money than you.
So, if you find yourself between these two extremes, a change in viewpoint is the only thing that can get you out of this funk. I have several friends (no joke) who have become billionaires over the last few years. I've slipped into periods of jealousy, but it's taken some mulling to realize that I only want what I think they have. And what is that, exactly? More "stuff"? A bigger house? How are things going to really make me feel happy? Fact is, they won't, and they can't.
I can feed myself and my family. I am healthy (now, at least--for many years, I was not). I have shelter. I have friends who I care about and who care about me. If you have these things, you have wealth--or at least enough of it to be happy.
I think you can actually be happy if those people are not in your social circle. Your brain has a way of forgetting what is not in your proximity. It’s very different knowing that a distant cousin is a rich guy vs the cousin that hangs out with you every weekend.
The nice thing about simply changing your mindset with respect to money is that you can learn to be happy without needing to cut good friends out of your life.
It also seems unnecessarily burdensome and superficial; when said people who you cut out face financial strain of their own, are they then “allowed” to be your friends again? Likewise, if you win the lottery, how would you react if all of your old friends stopped talking to you?
It also seems unnecessarily burdensome and superficial; when said people who you cut out face financial strain of their own, are they then “allowed” to be your friends again? Likewise, if you win the lottery, how would you react if all of your old friends stopped talking to you?
As another commenter said, it’s very complicated: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29801896
Sometimes the easier route is more appealing. But I am certainly not dismissing your point.
Sometimes the easier route is more appealing. But I am certainly not dismissing your point.
people are really jealous if the people they believe to be no more talented than themselves gain alot more, they attribute the success to luck and that is where their depression starts (Oh why am i so unlucky, what did i do wrong in life etc...)
In my experience, trying to push away these feelings of shame, jealousy and inadequacy won’t help at all. By sheer will, or by using “mental hacks” from pop psychology you might be able to push them out of consciousness for a while, but that won’t last for long. Or worse, it will last and the feelings will stay out of consciousness, even though, since their root cause hasn’t been solved, they don’t really disappear. They just become unconscious and part of what Jung called The Shadow: the aspects of ourselves that we can’t accept and we push into unconsciousness. From the unconscious they act up and make us behave in irrational ways without being able to understand what’s happening.
Instead, try to approach these feelings with an attitude of compassionate curiosity.
First, notice that there’s nothing wrong about having these feelings. It’d be wrong if you were mean to your friends because of their success. But you can have these feelings and not be mean to them. The feelings are not the problem.
Second, understand that there’s nothing wrong with you. You’re having these feelings for a reason. There's a casual chain of events that's making you feel this way. So, why are they happening?
The obvious -and wrong- answer is because your friends have money and you don’t. But surely there are plenty of people in the world that have less money than you, and still manage to be reasonably happy. And even your rich friends could compare themselves with even richer people and feel inadequate about how small their swimming pool or their yacht is. Are they feeling this way?
You can ask other more meaningful questions: why do you feel the need to compare yourself with your friends? Why do you feel that you need a ton of money to validate you and make you happy?
These are not easy questions to answer. They often touch deep wounds -otherwise we wouldn’t be so keen to avoid them. But approaching them with curiosity and compassion is the only way to find the root causes of what’s making you so miserable.
Instead, try to approach these feelings with an attitude of compassionate curiosity.
First, notice that there’s nothing wrong about having these feelings. It’d be wrong if you were mean to your friends because of their success. But you can have these feelings and not be mean to them. The feelings are not the problem.
Second, understand that there’s nothing wrong with you. You’re having these feelings for a reason. There's a casual chain of events that's making you feel this way. So, why are they happening?
The obvious -and wrong- answer is because your friends have money and you don’t. But surely there are plenty of people in the world that have less money than you, and still manage to be reasonably happy. And even your rich friends could compare themselves with even richer people and feel inadequate about how small their swimming pool or their yacht is. Are they feeling this way?
You can ask other more meaningful questions: why do you feel the need to compare yourself with your friends? Why do you feel that you need a ton of money to validate you and make you happy?
These are not easy questions to answer. They often touch deep wounds -otherwise we wouldn’t be so keen to avoid them. But approaching them with curiosity and compassion is the only way to find the root causes of what’s making you so miserable.
I've been looking into Stoic readings lately. Their advice is not "be emotionless"; the "stoic" adjective does not apply to them.
One tool they advise using is negative visualization. Take a minute right now and imagine how things could be worse. Your apartment could have a leak in the roof. You could have to share it with a roommate who steals from you. You could be living on the street.
This is not to say you have no problems. Not at all! But sitting with thoughts about how your life could be worse might help you be happier with your situation. You say you're "at the bottom with nothing". It's easy to think about your life only looking up and seeing how far you have to go; harder to look down and see how far you have come.
Additionally, imagine what the "stunning house" costs them! Not money, specifically, because they have it. But how much must they worry about being broken into. They have to deal with fixing everything that could go wrong, while you can call your landlord and have them fix it -- or even move out!
Be careful not to become too attached to things you can't control. If their expensive house burns down tomorrow, would they be too used to it to rent a smaller place? That's attachment that would make it harder to live.
One tool they advise using is negative visualization. Take a minute right now and imagine how things could be worse. Your apartment could have a leak in the roof. You could have to share it with a roommate who steals from you. You could be living on the street.
This is not to say you have no problems. Not at all! But sitting with thoughts about how your life could be worse might help you be happier with your situation. You say you're "at the bottom with nothing". It's easy to think about your life only looking up and seeing how far you have to go; harder to look down and see how far you have come.
Additionally, imagine what the "stunning house" costs them! Not money, specifically, because they have it. But how much must they worry about being broken into. They have to deal with fixing everything that could go wrong, while you can call your landlord and have them fix it -- or even move out!
Be careful not to become too attached to things you can't control. If their expensive house burns down tomorrow, would they be too used to it to rent a smaller place? That's attachment that would make it harder to live.
"The man that has no shoes eventually meets the man with no feet."
The man with no shoes, sees in the man with no feet, his fate.
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I am rich, now, after an IPO. I am just an individual contributor at the company, not an exec or anything. I'd only been working here a couple of years when we went public. I have made almost $5MM this last year, and have well over another $5MM coming over the next two.
I contrast this with how I grew up: with my brother, raised by a single mom who worked 2 or 3 jobs at a time, starved herself occasionally, and sometimes did illegal things (theft) to make ends meet. Among other...less savory experiences I had. My mom isn't around to see my good fortune. I would have loved dearly to buy her a house and take care of her so she could find peace in life she only found in death. Point is, I know what it's like to not be fabulously well off.
It isn't hard to keep my exuberance in check.
What I'm saying is: maybe being gracious has its limits. Perhaps your friends could use a dose of reality of what it's like to not be fabulously wealthy. I wish I had some idea of how that might be accomplished. Or perhaps you should find new friends. If your current friends might be offended by a reminder that their wealth and how they present their fortune has an emotional impact on those without it, then personally I don't know that I'd call them "good".
I contrast this with how I grew up: with my brother, raised by a single mom who worked 2 or 3 jobs at a time, starved herself occasionally, and sometimes did illegal things (theft) to make ends meet. Among other...less savory experiences I had. My mom isn't around to see my good fortune. I would have loved dearly to buy her a house and take care of her so she could find peace in life she only found in death. Point is, I know what it's like to not be fabulously well off.
It isn't hard to keep my exuberance in check.
What I'm saying is: maybe being gracious has its limits. Perhaps your friends could use a dose of reality of what it's like to not be fabulously wealthy. I wish I had some idea of how that might be accomplished. Or perhaps you should find new friends. If your current friends might be offended by a reminder that their wealth and how they present their fortune has an emotional impact on those without it, then personally I don't know that I'd call them "good".
Your feelings are valid and I honestly don't understand why some comments here are judging you.
Jealousy, like every other emotion is part of being a human and the sooner you come into terms with that, the better it will be.
I think you are holding yourself to an unattainable moral standard. If spending time with your friends is unsettling for you, then it's time to move on. They may or may not be intentionally showing off their wealth but frankly that's irrelevant because the only thing that matters is your well being.
Further, I urge you to think about the word Relationship: it's RELATE+SHIP which is the process of continuously _relating_ to someone, so if you can no longer do that with your friends, your relationship is meaningless.
As for the question of wealth and happiness in general, my own view on this is that is varies from person to person. I personally like to have _some_ savings, own a property and be able to take a vacation once a year.
I opt in for optimizing my quality of life rather than wealth and this means finding avenues to work _less_ and focus on things that truly matter to me: spending time with my significant other and family members, exercising and sleeping well and eating good food.
I'm not going to respond to a last minute email or be "on call" and miss the opportunity of having sex with my fiance.
I sure as hell don't want to be the person who missed all those joyful moments because I was too busy chasing millions and building the next Facebook. What am I going to do with millions on my death bed?
Life is all about balance.
Jealousy, like every other emotion is part of being a human and the sooner you come into terms with that, the better it will be.
I think you are holding yourself to an unattainable moral standard. If spending time with your friends is unsettling for you, then it's time to move on. They may or may not be intentionally showing off their wealth but frankly that's irrelevant because the only thing that matters is your well being.
Further, I urge you to think about the word Relationship: it's RELATE+SHIP which is the process of continuously _relating_ to someone, so if you can no longer do that with your friends, your relationship is meaningless.
As for the question of wealth and happiness in general, my own view on this is that is varies from person to person. I personally like to have _some_ savings, own a property and be able to take a vacation once a year.
I opt in for optimizing my quality of life rather than wealth and this means finding avenues to work _less_ and focus on things that truly matter to me: spending time with my significant other and family members, exercising and sleeping well and eating good food.
I'm not going to respond to a last minute email or be "on call" and miss the opportunity of having sex with my fiance.
I sure as hell don't want to be the person who missed all those joyful moments because I was too busy chasing millions and building the next Facebook. What am I going to do with millions on my death bed?
Life is all about balance.
> Your feelings are valid and I honestly don't understand why some comments here are judging you.
Because HN is full of rich know-it-alls, and those people have zero idea what it is like to live anywhere near the federal poverty line.
I've been living for years off less than $12k a year. Nobody in this thread has any idea what that is like save maybe OP.
Because HN is full of rich know-it-alls, and those people have zero idea what it is like to live anywhere near the federal poverty line.
I've been living for years off less than $12k a year. Nobody in this thread has any idea what that is like save maybe OP.
This isn't Tumblr. Your suffering doesn't buy you prestige.
On the flip side, I wish people were more open and honest with their careers - I never knew how much money was in certain career paths compared to others. Since then I’m making 5-10x my friends and without trying to rub it in am honest (income is great, but comes with a pound of flesh).
I want them to know so they can make a conscious decision for themselves rather than unknowingly go down a path full of glass ceilings.
Edit: and a good influence pushing me into buying property a decade earlier certainly would have had massive effects on my life too.
Point is leverage your friends’ experience and influence, I’m sure they have a wealth of knowledge or can help you gain a step up (keyword: help, not give you a free ride). Others have said ‘don’t copy’ and I agree in some contexts, but my friends certainly have business gaps I can fill which are mutually beneficial.
I want them to know so they can make a conscious decision for themselves rather than unknowingly go down a path full of glass ceilings.
Edit: and a good influence pushing me into buying property a decade earlier certainly would have had massive effects on my life too.
Point is leverage your friends’ experience and influence, I’m sure they have a wealth of knowledge or can help you gain a step up (keyword: help, not give you a free ride). Others have said ‘don’t copy’ and I agree in some contexts, but my friends certainly have business gaps I can fill which are mutually beneficial.
I have done this for my friends and they have not taken my advice so I’ve stopped. Things that were all easily within their ability to do. E.g apply to a great company with referrals vs their dead end one (they said it themselves), buying in the capital city the same time as me rather than in a satellite city and missing out on gains. Buying a boat to live on to “save rent” rather than an investment property.
I just keep quiet now since people don’t do things they’ve not “come up with” themselves
I just keep quiet now since people don’t do things they’ve not “come up with” themselves
> buying in the capital city the same time as me rather than in a satellite city and missing out on gains
"You should have taken risk X rather than risk Y because X paid off" is not helpful advice.
Hindsight is 20/20, and different people have different safety buffers and values that will guide them to capital city vs satellite city.
"You should have taken risk X rather than risk Y because X paid off" is not helpful advice.
Hindsight is 20/20, and different people have different safety buffers and values that will guide them to capital city vs satellite city.
I gave the advice contemporaneously as I was buying not in hind sight.
Ah well, it’s probably good they didn’t follow my advice. if they make money they are geniuses, if they lose it’s my fault.
Ah well, it’s probably good they didn’t follow my advice. if they make money they are geniuses, if they lose it’s my fault.
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There were and will be several people pushing to buy property, Bitcoin, a particular stock, etc at different points in the past. Investing in things like property makes more sense and somewhat more timeless than things like Bitcoin. But still hard to pick the right influence at the right time. Same for investing in learning a particular skill.
But you make a good point to learn from others' experience and to have more good and consistent influences. And I wish I had some and I had listened to some.
But you make a good point to learn from others' experience and to have more good and consistent influences. And I wish I had some and I had listened to some.
Could you offer some examples of such career paths? Are these not in tech?
I was a developer, now in IT security, I started a business and haven’t looked back since then. If you’re highly technical and can stand the work, right now is absolutely the time to kick off IT security stuff
I suppose I have money, but it's all relative.
I suppose I'm on the opposite end of you, and I overcompensate by never inviting people to my house. I go to other people's houses, including and especially those with "shit rentals".
I find myself somewhat guilty of my own lavishness (even though really it's not that lavish).
I don't really have advice, other than to say that if they're your friends you should actually just tell them it makes you ashamed and see their response. You don't want their pity necessarily, but I think it's important that your friends know how you feel.
I suppose I'm on the opposite end of you, and I overcompensate by never inviting people to my house. I go to other people's houses, including and especially those with "shit rentals".
I find myself somewhat guilty of my own lavishness (even though really it's not that lavish).
I don't really have advice, other than to say that if they're your friends you should actually just tell them it makes you ashamed and see their response. You don't want their pity necessarily, but I think it's important that your friends know how you feel.
I don’t think this is a good advice. Let’s think about possible outcome. I think OP’s friends will be sorry for his situation but they can’t do anything about it. They might even not invite him to more fancy events to avoid uncomfortable situations but that’s not what he’s looking for. What do you think they can do when he’ll tell them about his feeling?
> What do you think they can do when he’ll tell them about his feeling?
Talk about it so they can understand each other? You don't just drop the one-liner and hope they change their ways accordingly. Hell, they don't need to change at all. Just talking about it could cause OP to realize his friends don't care about that sort of thing and reduce or rid of their feeling of shame.
Some people can be okay not talking about how they feel; however, OP is clearly not currently okay, so doing something is the only way something will change. If OP cannot change their own feelings theirself, OP can either get different friends or try to talk to their current friends. And if you are willing to get different friends, you may as well try to talk to your current ones first.
> If you’re commenting on this thread and offering advice, I encourage you add the context of whether you are one of those who have money or not.
And since OP asked, I'm too young to have accumulated wealth to be jealous of, but I feel comfortable with my current job and am optimistic of my future.
Talk about it so they can understand each other? You don't just drop the one-liner and hope they change their ways accordingly. Hell, they don't need to change at all. Just talking about it could cause OP to realize his friends don't care about that sort of thing and reduce or rid of their feeling of shame.
Some people can be okay not talking about how they feel; however, OP is clearly not currently okay, so doing something is the only way something will change. If OP cannot change their own feelings theirself, OP can either get different friends or try to talk to their current friends. And if you are willing to get different friends, you may as well try to talk to your current ones first.
> If you’re commenting on this thread and offering advice, I encourage you add the context of whether you are one of those who have money or not.
And since OP asked, I'm too young to have accumulated wealth to be jealous of, but I feel comfortable with my current job and am optimistic of my future.
You forgot to answer question: What do you think they can do when he’ll tell them about his feeling? Hypothetically, what could one say to make OP feel better as his friend? I don’t see anything.
I did not forget to answer, my answer was simply not accepted. The act of talking to each other about an issue can itself reduce the burden. There aren't magic words that make any person feel better. OP may always have some lingering discontent, but that's life. Sometimes it's just about managing the discontent.
It's not a sure-fire solution. Hard problems rarely have such a thing. But I'd bet on discussion performing better than no discussion is most scenarios. Even if it lead you to finding new friends.
It's not a sure-fire solution. Hard problems rarely have such a thing. But I'd bet on discussion performing better than no discussion is most scenarios. Even if it lead you to finding new friends.
I'm not the person you're replying to, but a mature response would be:
"Woah bud, I'm sorry. Have I changed or is it just that I can spend more?"
Worst case scenario, you communicate. Best case scenario, you discover that you've become an asshole.
"Woah bud, I'm sorry. Have I changed or is it just that I can spend more?"
Worst case scenario, you communicate. Best case scenario, you discover that you've become an asshole.
I don't know - if the OP was my friend I'd want to know so I could reassure them.
More practically speaking we could meet somewhere else where they could feel more comfortable. Isn't that the whole point of friendship?
More practically speaking we could meet somewhere else where they could feel more comfortable. Isn't that the whole point of friendship?
This is friendship? Meeting with my friend on neutral place because he can’t stand that I have huge house?
Yes
An honest conversation with them can do a lot. You can explain how you are really happy for them, but at the same time feel bad about your personal situation. If they really are good friends, they will understand. At least you would’ve gotten it off your chest and can take the next best step to maintain your sanity - whether that’s reducing your interaction with them, or getting their help with financial planning.
It brings you down because you want what they have because you think that will make you happy.
It won't.
If they are happy, it's because they're internally happy. The riches are unrelated. I've met rich people who are very happy, and some who are alcoholics who can barely form a sentence.
It won't.
If they are happy, it's because they're internally happy. The riches are unrelated. I've met rich people who are very happy, and some who are alcoholics who can barely form a sentence.
“We make ourselves miserable by first closing ourselves off from reality and then collecting this and that in an attempt to make ourselves happy by possessing happiness. But happiness is not something I have, it is something I myself want to be. Trying to be happy by accumulating possessions is like trying to satisfy hunger by taping sandwiches all over my body.” –Roger J. Corless (Not George Carlin)I can't disagree with this more.
Money is a means to obtain immense happiness. It is the medium one uses to secure housing, food, and the future ability to acquire the same without struggle. These are incredibly important things, and themselves sources of happiness.
The phrase "money doesn't make you happy" may be true--but it's misleading.
Money is a means to obtain immense happiness. It is the medium one uses to secure housing, food, and the future ability to acquire the same without struggle. These are incredibly important things, and themselves sources of happiness.
The phrase "money doesn't make you happy" may be true--but it's misleading.
Money doesn't buy happiness, but it buys options. Options create greater opportunities for happiness.
A lack of money means a lack of options, which can put a hard limit on happiness. The hedonistic treadmill exists for sure, but that's a better place to be than drowning.
People can talk all they want about how simply being with family makes them happy, but certainly being with family at Disneyland beats being with family in your cramped apartment where you're having to choose between paying rent or being able to eat more than ramen and ketchup sandwiches.
A lack of money means a lack of options, which can put a hard limit on happiness. The hedonistic treadmill exists for sure, but that's a better place to be than drowning.
People can talk all they want about how simply being with family makes them happy, but certainly being with family at Disneyland beats being with family in your cramped apartment where you're having to choose between paying rent or being able to eat more than ramen and ketchup sandwiches.
You are responding to a statement that wasn't quite made.
We are talking about riches here, not transitioning from poverty to an upper-middle class income. What you say is absolutely true, but only up to a point, because money has diminishing marginal returns to happiness.
Why? Because of everything you state: it is unpleasant to have to think about how you'll feed and house yourself. But it does not require riches (in western living context) to be able to stop worrying about that.
Where money stops driving happiness varies by person, and by regional cost of living, but the research we have available suggests that it's not an extraordinarily high amount. Maybe $90k or so for most people.
But if you're making $150k, will having $10m in the bank make your life dramatically happier? The evidence suggests that no, it will not. That's when money fails to buy happiness.
We are talking about riches here, not transitioning from poverty to an upper-middle class income. What you say is absolutely true, but only up to a point, because money has diminishing marginal returns to happiness.
Why? Because of everything you state: it is unpleasant to have to think about how you'll feed and house yourself. But it does not require riches (in western living context) to be able to stop worrying about that.
Where money stops driving happiness varies by person, and by regional cost of living, but the research we have available suggests that it's not an extraordinarily high amount. Maybe $90k or so for most people.
But if you're making $150k, will having $10m in the bank make your life dramatically happier? The evidence suggests that no, it will not. That's when money fails to buy happiness.
>Because of everything you state: it is unpleasant to have to think about how you'll feed and house yourself. But it does not require riches (in western living context) to be able to stop worrying about that.
This is false. Let's look at at Brazil. The minimum wage is R$1212. According to DIEESE, the ideal minimum wage should be at least R$6000. This is a salary that would allow you not to worry about rent, food, recreation, education, transportation and overall a live a decent life.
If you are making R$6000, that puts you in the top 4% richest. Let that sink in, having a salary that allows you living with dignity means you're in the top 4%. Tell me again that riches are not required to live without worrying about food and housing.
Just for comparision, a senior software engineer in Brazil with 10+ years of experience is usually making something in between 8-15k/mo. That 15k/mo BRL salary is equivalent to 31k USD/year(assuming no taxes!).
I guess my point is that the USA does not fully represent the "western context", and people from first world countries usually have a very very skewed view on how life goes elsewhere.
This is false. Let's look at at Brazil. The minimum wage is R$1212. According to DIEESE, the ideal minimum wage should be at least R$6000. This is a salary that would allow you not to worry about rent, food, recreation, education, transportation and overall a live a decent life.
If you are making R$6000, that puts you in the top 4% richest. Let that sink in, having a salary that allows you living with dignity means you're in the top 4%. Tell me again that riches are not required to live without worrying about food and housing.
Just for comparision, a senior software engineer in Brazil with 10+ years of experience is usually making something in between 8-15k/mo. That 15k/mo BRL salary is equivalent to 31k USD/year(assuming no taxes!).
I guess my point is that the USA does not fully represent the "western context", and people from first world countries usually have a very very skewed view on how life goes elsewhere.
Alternative possibility: According to DIEESE, the ideal minimum wage should be higher than what 95% of people make today and therefore they’ve got something wrong in their logic or their priors. Their conclusion is not economically realistic.
If it's not economically realistic to pay people an actual living wage, then one could argue that there's something very broken with the economy.
Yes, money can't make you happy, but the lack of it can make you miserable. That's true to a point. I've also met some people who were suffering from poverty that would make you cry, and they were the happiest, kindest, most loving people.
My experience with rich friends is different than yours. But I have some friends that make me sad as depressed as well.
I'm as poor as you (renting a small apartment and will never be able to afford a house) and I also have very rich friends. Seeing them does not make me sad. We keep doing the same thing we did as teenagers, drink beer, talk about ultra-nerd things, etc. I'm not particularly interested in their houses, and when they talk about big money I mock them mercilessly "what happened to you? your ass used to be beautiful!". It's great fun overall.
Some other friends of mine are in big trouble. Drugs, cancer, etc. Seeing them makes me really sad and depressed. Moreover, when I avoid seeing them for a few months I feel very guilty because they rarely initiate contact.
I'm as poor as you (renting a small apartment and will never be able to afford a house) and I also have very rich friends. Seeing them does not make me sad. We keep doing the same thing we did as teenagers, drink beer, talk about ultra-nerd things, etc. I'm not particularly interested in their houses, and when they talk about big money I mock them mercilessly "what happened to you? your ass used to be beautiful!". It's great fun overall.
Some other friends of mine are in big trouble. Drugs, cancer, etc. Seeing them makes me really sad and depressed. Moreover, when I avoid seeing them for a few months I feel very guilty because they rarely initiate contact.
One advantage of having rich friends is that you have access to their network of other rich friends. Find out how you can provide a service to that network and make some money out of it. It’s difficult to gain access to a network of that sort if you aren’t one of them so you find yourself in an opportune position.
As they say luck is when opportunity meets preparedness. So make your own luck.
As they say luck is when opportunity meets preparedness. So make your own luck.
I have several multi-millionaire friends; at times I’ve received work from them, and at times it has been a decent wage, but when things go sour, you don’t just lose a client, you lose a friend.
That is to say: taking advantage of their wealthy situation is a good way to lose your friendship.
That is to say: taking advantage of their wealthy situation is a good way to lose your friendship.
Better perspective may be to take comfort in the fact that should you fall on real hard times, you ideally have a support system that's more than capable of helping you out.
I have a few richer friends and while I would never take advantage, we know that if the worst were to happen, we could turn to each other for help.
I have a few richer friends and while I would never take advantage, we know that if the worst were to happen, we could turn to each other for help.
Good god, no.
I was told that there’s a secret that only rich people know, and that’s that money does not make you happy. I’m excluding things like being homeless or not being able to eat, obviously there’s a necessary amount anyone needs to feel good. But beyond that it doesn’t change things. Otherwise, rich, famous, successful people would never be depressed, but a lot of them are.
I have to be blunt here; this is plutocrat propaganda. Yes, being rich doesn't guarantee happiness. It doesn't spare you from (all) illness (though it STRONGLY improves your healthcare odds in the US) or the trauma of a messy divorce. But being rich is enormously better than experiencing all of life's ills while being poor. If the advantages of wealth did not outweigh the disadvantages, we would see the wealthy abandoning their wealth en masse. Clearly they are not.
The purpose of the "money isn't everything" mantra is to engender a servant class to preserve the wealth of our rulers.
The purpose of the "money isn't everything" mantra is to engender a servant class to preserve the wealth of our rulers.
No question it’s better to be wealthy than poor.
Most people here are talking about being rich vs just being normal.
Put another way, there’s a HUGE difference between not having enough and having enough. There’s almost no difference between having enough and having more than enough. You can play this out with anything: money, food, free time, etc
Most people here are talking about being rich vs just being normal.
Put another way, there’s a HUGE difference between not having enough and having enough. There’s almost no difference between having enough and having more than enough. You can play this out with anything: money, food, free time, etc
Normal among millennials is being poor. Six-figure debt while working an hourly job with zero savings.
I don’t think six figure debt is normal. It also depends on where the debt is from. Is it something they had to do (borrow money for food and rent) or elected to do (borrow money for low income degree)?
In the US, for the young, it may mean that you went to college. You have the equivalent of a mortgage with no house.
And this is new: in many cases someone from their parents' generation who got the same degree and the same job would be debt free, because college used to be much, much less expensive (even after accounting for inflation) than it is now.
Example: University of California (Berkeley or UCLA, etc). Currently about $12k a year tuition. 35-40 years ago is was zero, with a couple of hundred dollars in fees.
And this is new: in many cases someone from their parents' generation who got the same degree and the same job would be debt free, because college used to be much, much less expensive (even after accounting for inflation) than it is now.
Example: University of California (Berkeley or UCLA, etc). Currently about $12k a year tuition. 35-40 years ago is was zero, with a couple of hundred dollars in fees.
This is not normal. This is a vocal, and somewhat obnoxious, minority of millennials.
Most millennials are hardworking and responsible. A very vocal minority are not.
Hourly job with zero savings, sure. But is six-figure debt really common? I can find that the mean indebtedness is five figures, surely the median (amongst those without mortgages) is much less than that?
Regardless of that statement's truthiness, that's very much irrelevant for the OP. Nowhere did they say they were broke.
They did say “I’m at the bottom with nothing.” It’s not a long walk from there to “they said they were broke”.
Normal is still pretty shitty when compared to being a member of the aristocratic leisure class. Of course there are diminishing returns to the happiness value of money, but it's a hell of a lot higher than being a normal middle class American.
Imagine if a member of this super rich aristocratic class has depression. That must be hopeless.
Why would it be hopeless? They have the time, energy and resources to address it properly.
Someone with depression who works two jobs without health insurance and is too exhausted outside of work to do anything but watch TV, now that's hopeless.
Someone with depression who works two jobs without health insurance and is too exhausted outside of work to do anything but watch TV, now that's hopeless.
> Someone with depression who works two jobs without health insurance and is too exhausted outside of work to do anything but watch TV, now that's hopeless.
I agree. Now take someone who doesn’t have any of those problems and is in fact super rich, who still feels the same. I’m not sure if that would be better or worse actually.
I agree. Now take someone who doesn’t have any of those problems and is in fact super rich, who still feels the same. I’m not sure if that would be better or worse actually.
It would certainly be worse. Maslow’s hierarchy of needs allows the truly rich to achieve stability and control over external events, situations, and outcomes. Rich people can afford to not do things that directly or indirectly contribute to depressive symptoms. This doesn’t mean they aren’t just as depressed as a poor person with depression, but the poor person has no assets with which to edify themselves.
The poor person has 2x the risk of being depressed in the first place.
This is an important point, and I agree. I wouldn’t be surprised if the likelihood were even higher than that.
I'm reading a biography of the philosopher Seneca. His life is an interesting example of your final point. He was truly one of the ultra-rich in Roman society -- as one of Nero's top advisors, he amassed a fortune, which was arguably not obtained through honest or entirely virtuous means (being primarily from a famously cruel emperor). But some of his famous letters argued that wealth isn't everything, money is "preferred" but not necessary to be a good person, etc. While I think there are some great points to remember in those writings, viewed in context against the author being one of the richest people in the Roman empire at the time it's hard not to see a parallel to your point that the mantra can be "plutocrat propaganda."
I'm not sure it's all propaganda. Of course having money is better than having no money, and makes one happier. But that likely tops out at some point. One famous study said 75k, another disputed that.
There's a lot of 'hidden' costs too. Of course I'd be happier with an extra couple million dollars today - I could travel and retire! But not if I had to give up 18/hr a day for the next 5 years to get there.
There's a lot of 'hidden' costs too. Of course I'd be happier with an extra couple million dollars today - I could travel and retire! But not if I had to give up 18/hr a day for the next 5 years to get there.
> Yes, being rich doesn't guarantee happiness.
I have to be blunt here: this is plutocrat propaganda.
No? Because that's the saying. The saying isn't "being rich isn't better than being poor". It's literally "money doesn't buy happiness".
Your argument is literally a strawman argument. No one made the argument you are rebutting against.
I have to be blunt here: this is plutocrat propaganda.
No? Because that's the saying. The saying isn't "being rich isn't better than being poor". It's literally "money doesn't buy happiness".
Your argument is literally a strawman argument. No one made the argument you are rebutting against.
Completely false. I know a ton of rich people, and their lives are so much better after coming into money. This is literally the biggest lie ever told. The possibilities in life go way up with money, you are no longer bogged down by a 9 to 5 job, you can really develop yourself in ways that may take decades to realize
How is it false? Money doesn't buy happiness. Period. If you don't agree with that, then do you agree with the statement: "Not being in a war zone doesn't make you happy"? No? But I know a ton of people that moved out of a war zone and their lives were better! Therefore, if you don't live in a war zone, you MUST be happy.
Anyone who doesn't live in a war zone and claims they aren't happy is literally telling the biggest lie ever told.
Anyone who doesn't live in a war zone and claims they aren't happy is literally telling the biggest lie ever told.
You could. But you could also degenerate into a pleasure seeking junkie or enjoy it for a while and succumb to existential depression or surround onself with false friends with interests and feel completely alone. But I’d still argue that having money does confer more options after all.
It doesn’t bring happiness, no, but not having to particularly worry about what things cost, or whether you can afford an unexpected expense makes a huge difference to quality of life. I started broke - unable to pay rent, eating bulk rice with stolen ketchup, defaulting on medical debts - and damn did it suck. Now it’s just “pay the money, move on, forget about it”. I also extend this to friends when I see they are facing a steamroller, as I haven’t forgotten the sleepless nights, and nor have my stumps of teeth. I don’t do debts, just a hope that if and when I find myself against the wall, they’ll be there for me in whatever measure they can muster.
It hasn’t brought happiness, but it has removed one huge element of worry from my existence.
I’m still depressed, but that’s independent of any external factors, and I’ve grown to not mind it - being depressed is nowhere near as bad when you have a comfort blanket of cash.
It hasn’t brought happiness, but it has removed one huge element of worry from my existence.
I’m still depressed, but that’s independent of any external factors, and I’ve grown to not mind it - being depressed is nowhere near as bad when you have a comfort blanket of cash.
> Rich people aren’t aware that their tales of success make people like me feel bad.
It's that most people aren't very aware of their surroundings. Ultimately it's a choice whether one trains one's self to be aware or not. It has nothing to do with rich or poor. You see them, standing in the middle of the grocery aisle blocking the way, oblivious to the existence of other people - and a thousand other similar scenarios. The same goes for being emotionally aware of other people and context related to them.
It sounds like the only thing your friends can do pro-actively is abandon you as a friend, stop hanging out with you, stop inviting you around. What else could they do given that you get angry and envious around them, and that's obviously not their fault. I'd suggest you have to correct that mental mistake or it's guaranteed those friendships won't last much longer.
Alternatively, instead of swimming in negative emotions, learn from your friends. So many of them are becoming rich, if that's what you want then see about learning from their accomplishments. Turn your time around them into a learning experience instead of a depressive torture. Turn that negative into a productive positive. If they care about you, they'll want to see you be successful as well.
It's that most people aren't very aware of their surroundings. Ultimately it's a choice whether one trains one's self to be aware or not. It has nothing to do with rich or poor. You see them, standing in the middle of the grocery aisle blocking the way, oblivious to the existence of other people - and a thousand other similar scenarios. The same goes for being emotionally aware of other people and context related to them.
It sounds like the only thing your friends can do pro-actively is abandon you as a friend, stop hanging out with you, stop inviting you around. What else could they do given that you get angry and envious around them, and that's obviously not their fault. I'd suggest you have to correct that mental mistake or it's guaranteed those friendships won't last much longer.
Alternatively, instead of swimming in negative emotions, learn from your friends. So many of them are becoming rich, if that's what you want then see about learning from their accomplishments. Turn your time around them into a learning experience instead of a depressive torture. Turn that negative into a productive positive. If they care about you, they'll want to see you be successful as well.
Other side of this, the last few years I made an absurd amount of money. It put huge strain on friends who weren’t so career focused, such that some of those long time friendships ended. I’m not sure whose fault it was, maybe my own for flaunting it so much. Either way, nothing wrong with putting some distance between you and them a bit while you grapple with this feeling. It might do a lot to preserve the friendship. You can even voice your concern, but just remember most feelings like this are short term, so don’t make any long term decisions based on them
This may just be a matter of perspective.
For ex. I don't have any millionaire friends or family, though plenty are much more successful than myself.
Millionaires and successful people will exist whether or not you're friends with them, but while they're in your circle, consider their invitations their way of sharing the wealth? Something not everyone has access to. They chose you, they value you.
Consider these successful people are also resources. Imagine you need help finding a job, networking, potentially even a bailout. Seems like a great place to start.
Being happy for others is not an obligation. The only person you need to be happy for is yourself. You don't need to subject yourself to their flexing, peacocking, or keeping-up-with-the-jonses.
That being said, envy is not easy to deal with.
Your friends might be the catalyst, but envy is generally fueled by some other underlying insecurity.
ex. you care what other people think of you, you think you'll be judged by your wealth.
You'll need to self-reflect on what that is exactly.
For ex. I don't have any millionaire friends or family, though plenty are much more successful than myself.
Millionaires and successful people will exist whether or not you're friends with them, but while they're in your circle, consider their invitations their way of sharing the wealth? Something not everyone has access to. They chose you, they value you.
Consider these successful people are also resources. Imagine you need help finding a job, networking, potentially even a bailout. Seems like a great place to start.
Being happy for others is not an obligation. The only person you need to be happy for is yourself. You don't need to subject yourself to their flexing, peacocking, or keeping-up-with-the-jonses.
That being said, envy is not easy to deal with.
Your friends might be the catalyst, but envy is generally fueled by some other underlying insecurity.
ex. you care what other people think of you, you think you'll be judged by your wealth.
You'll need to self-reflect on what that is exactly.
I might be an asshole here but I’ll just call it: you’re jealous and you can either stop being jealous or stop being friends with them. They can’t do anything. There will be always people with more money and less money than you, more attractive and ugly people around you. If you let it get under your skin, then no matter if you have a boat, you’ll have a friend with a huge yacht. There is no ceiling. Good luck.
You're not an asshole, but perhaps I am: it's envy - not jealousy.
> Envy means discontented longing for someone else’s advantages. Jealousy means unpleasant suspicion, or apprehension of rivalship.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/jealous-vs-env...
> Envy means discontented longing for someone else’s advantages. Jealousy means unpleasant suspicion, or apprehension of rivalship.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/jealous-vs-env...
As an aside, there's an interesting discussion here about whether the meaning has changed https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/270697/envy-vs-j...
Yep. “Envy” is wanting what they have, “jealousy” is being afraid they take what you have.
You are envious when they get a shiny car, and jealous when they flirt with your partner.
You are envious when they get a shiny car, and jealous when they flirt with your partner.
Envy goes a step further. See, Jealousy is wanting the same things somebody else has. Envy means that you'd take it from them if that meant you could have it. It means you'd deprive them of it to your own benefit.
Let’s not split hairs. I think we all know what I meant from context.
I think you should read before you are sending something, first paragraph from your link:
> […] historical usage shows that both mean "covetous" and are interchangeable when describing desiring someone else's possessions.
Maybe that’s why your friends have more money than you /s
> […] historical usage shows that both mean "covetous" and are interchangeable when describing desiring someone else's possessions.
Maybe that’s why your friends have more money than you /s
I'm not the OP. I like having richer friends - I borrow their money...and only sometimes give it back.
I did read that but I've never accepted that usage. It's a despicable attempt to elide a very useful discrimination.
I did read that but I've never accepted that usage. It's a despicable attempt to elide a very useful discrimination.
[deleted]
Maybe OP is jealous but on the other hand, plenty of rich people downplay it as much as they can, instead of bragging about their latest $1M gain to their less fortunate friends. Imho OP's friends could be more considerate.
I have two ways of reframing this that help me:
Every time you find yourself comparing yourself to someone richer, also pick out someone poorer and compare yourself to them at the same time. Should that poorer person be a ton more miserable than you? What does that say about how unhappy you should be seeing someone richer than you?
Realize that being close to a bunch of rich people says good things about your choices and not bad things. They have just gotten that final bit of luck to push them over the edge. Every way that you're similar to these people is a set of things you're doing financially correctly. You've weighted the dice in your favor, and you're just waiting for the roll to come up your way.
Context: These helped a ton when my friends were getting rich in startups. Eventually I did catch up to some of them, and they still help a ton when I compare myself to the ones who did way better.
Every time you find yourself comparing yourself to someone richer, also pick out someone poorer and compare yourself to them at the same time. Should that poorer person be a ton more miserable than you? What does that say about how unhappy you should be seeing someone richer than you?
Realize that being close to a bunch of rich people says good things about your choices and not bad things. They have just gotten that final bit of luck to push them over the edge. Every way that you're similar to these people is a set of things you're doing financially correctly. You've weighted the dice in your favor, and you're just waiting for the roll to come up your way.
Context: These helped a ton when my friends were getting rich in startups. Eventually I did catch up to some of them, and they still help a ton when I compare myself to the ones who did way better.
Many years ago I came across this YouTube video which I thought was amazing:
https://youtu.be/MDej3riTOS4
How to become rich immediately by lorax2013
https://youtu.be/MDej3riTOS4
How to become rich immediately by lorax2013
Wow, what a perspective! Thanks a lot for sharing.
> one of those who have money or not.
Nearly everyone is both poorer than someone and wealthier than someone.
> shit rental house
See, you've got a rental house, and it sounds like you don't even need roommates to help pay for it!
Nearly everyone is both poorer than someone and wealthier than someone.
> shit rental house
See, you've got a rental house, and it sounds like you don't even need roommates to help pay for it!
Reading your comments, it doesn't sound like your friend are being assholes and rubbing their with in your face. If they are then ditch them.
But if they are just enjoying their success and trying to share it with you. Then there is a different problem. You shouldn't feel ashamed.
Personally I think you should ask it therapy or a group therapy or something. There is something else going on, something that is causing you to attribute success in life to your house and belongings.
Yeah it is nice to have a nice house and some spare money, but there is more to life than that.
Enjoy your friends houses and the time you spend with them.
You're hitting at the only source of happiness/sadness for humans: success relative to their neighbour.
You either have to really accept other ways which I think is hard or get better than them which is probably harder.
I grew up in a small town of Normandy, from middle class parents, left home at 19 with a financial buoy from the State and my parents to get a 5-year degree and learned to be very slim in desire, since I was spending other people's money, then lived in relative comfort with my girlfriend when we found okay jobs in Paris.
I was sort of sad then, having like you little fortune to show. I did two things: I saved like a monster, for 3 years, up to 20k USD, and I dived into English, to reach my fluency objective.
After 3 years, I left my girlfriend, moved to Hong Kong, burned half my 20k savings working with my parisian salary there looking for a job. 7 years later, I have a Porsche, earn 4 times my initial salary with a local wife earning even more, and have a lot of money saved in various shapes. I feel I won so far, while I dont forget that it can just disappear tmr and it's okay, will just have to find another angle of attack.
Find a skill you can tune more and take a large wealth producing decision that not everyone takes (leave your roots for a rich place needing your new skill, for instance). If possible, tame the jealousy, it's really toxic: have fun doing something special like I have living in China, and use that as your worth-comparator. And find a working partner.
You either have to really accept other ways which I think is hard or get better than them which is probably harder.
I grew up in a small town of Normandy, from middle class parents, left home at 19 with a financial buoy from the State and my parents to get a 5-year degree and learned to be very slim in desire, since I was spending other people's money, then lived in relative comfort with my girlfriend when we found okay jobs in Paris.
I was sort of sad then, having like you little fortune to show. I did two things: I saved like a monster, for 3 years, up to 20k USD, and I dived into English, to reach my fluency objective.
After 3 years, I left my girlfriend, moved to Hong Kong, burned half my 20k savings working with my parisian salary there looking for a job. 7 years later, I have a Porsche, earn 4 times my initial salary with a local wife earning even more, and have a lot of money saved in various shapes. I feel I won so far, while I dont forget that it can just disappear tmr and it's okay, will just have to find another angle of attack.
Find a skill you can tune more and take a large wealth producing decision that not everyone takes (leave your roots for a rich place needing your new skill, for instance). If possible, tame the jealousy, it's really toxic: have fun doing something special like I have living in China, and use that as your worth-comparator. And find a working partner.
You have a flaw, that flaw is envy. It is a very human flaw. It's your decision if you embrace it as part of who you are and just be an envious person, or recognize that it isn't a virtue and attempt to improve yourself. It is not easy.
How to be gracious? Recognize a few things. First, your friends don't need you, they keep you in their lives because they like you, they care about you. They choose to spend time with you, because they have the resources to not but they do anyway. You should feel loved.
The other side of that is, you can choose to be a positive impact in their lives, let them have their positive impact on yours, or you can choose to let your envy sour things. And it will, eventually. In choosing to have these people in your life, you're choosing not to put the weight of your envy on them at the very least, ideally, you're learning to let go of that envy.
You sound like you don't want to feel this way, which is a good sign. And also, of course it is implied, you want these things for yourself as well. So advice on how you get there would best be gotten from them. There's a selfish motive here for you, and that's OK, let them teach you how to do what they did, I'm sure they'd be more than happy to do so. Turn that selfish emotion from envy to curiosity.
As far as my finances go, I don't discuss them, especially online to random strangers, but I will say I'm better off than most of my peers, but I live off probably a lot less money than you do.
How to be gracious? Recognize a few things. First, your friends don't need you, they keep you in their lives because they like you, they care about you. They choose to spend time with you, because they have the resources to not but they do anyway. You should feel loved.
The other side of that is, you can choose to be a positive impact in their lives, let them have their positive impact on yours, or you can choose to let your envy sour things. And it will, eventually. In choosing to have these people in your life, you're choosing not to put the weight of your envy on them at the very least, ideally, you're learning to let go of that envy.
You sound like you don't want to feel this way, which is a good sign. And also, of course it is implied, you want these things for yourself as well. So advice on how you get there would best be gotten from them. There's a selfish motive here for you, and that's OK, let them teach you how to do what they did, I'm sure they'd be more than happy to do so. Turn that selfish emotion from envy to curiosity.
As far as my finances go, I don't discuss them, especially online to random strangers, but I will say I'm better off than most of my peers, but I live off probably a lot less money than you do.
Ultimately you need to learn to detach your happiness / unhappiness from external factors.
Things that happen in the world just are. We assign values to them as good or bad and then tell ourselves to feel a certain way about them, but that part is all in our head. Thing that happen inside our own heads are within our control (barring mental illness). We can decide to look at things a different way and feel differently about them if we want to.
If seeing your friends succeed makes you unhappy, would it make you happy to see them fail? If they lost their fancy house and great job and had to live out of their car and beg for food, would you enjoy that? If so, maybe you don't actually like these people if you wish them such bad fortune.
I don't consider myself poor (and by any objective measure, I'm not), but I have friends who make more money than I do. I'm grateful for the things I do have. Like I go to the grocery store and buy what I want without looking at prices. Lots of people don't get to do that. I've pretty much never had to be concerned about whether I could fill the gas tank in my car or not. For some people that is a serious struggle. Would I like to buy a giant house with a pool and yard and all that? Sure, maybe someday I will. It's nice that some of my friends can. But there's a lot of good stuff in my life already, too.
Things that happen in the world just are. We assign values to them as good or bad and then tell ourselves to feel a certain way about them, but that part is all in our head. Thing that happen inside our own heads are within our control (barring mental illness). We can decide to look at things a different way and feel differently about them if we want to.
If seeing your friends succeed makes you unhappy, would it make you happy to see them fail? If they lost their fancy house and great job and had to live out of their car and beg for food, would you enjoy that? If so, maybe you don't actually like these people if you wish them such bad fortune.
I don't consider myself poor (and by any objective measure, I'm not), but I have friends who make more money than I do. I'm grateful for the things I do have. Like I go to the grocery store and buy what I want without looking at prices. Lots of people don't get to do that. I've pretty much never had to be concerned about whether I could fill the gas tank in my car or not. For some people that is a serious struggle. Would I like to buy a giant house with a pool and yard and all that? Sure, maybe someday I will. It's nice that some of my friends can. But there's a lot of good stuff in my life already, too.
few disjointed thoughts:
1) ditch the friends that aren't self aware ("I made a $1m on my house in one year") but not the ones that want to spend time with you and are just talking about their life
2) its relative, all relative, I'm sure they have friends that they're envious of, and i suspect if someone gave you $10m and gave all your friends $50m you might still feel the same way
3)separate the material things from the feelings your experiencing [1 below]
4) don't focus only on the money, would you want their spouse, health problems, family, work-stress etc?
5) find other ways to reciprocate with your friends without feeling embarrassed/that you can do cheaply, invite them to a beach picnic, or bbq in the park etc.
[1] when i was junior professional my peers all had fancy watched (either purchased or given to them) and i was envious / wanted to blend in - i was given some good advice, and instead of buying a watch to blend in I put the money into a discrete mutual fund, that i could redeem at at any time to buy the watch...after a few months of sticking with my casio (but knowing i could buy the watch)...i didn't really care about it any more and wasn't envious/self-conscious anymore...it was all in my head.
1) ditch the friends that aren't self aware ("I made a $1m on my house in one year") but not the ones that want to spend time with you and are just talking about their life
2) its relative, all relative, I'm sure they have friends that they're envious of, and i suspect if someone gave you $10m and gave all your friends $50m you might still feel the same way
3)separate the material things from the feelings your experiencing [1 below]
4) don't focus only on the money, would you want their spouse, health problems, family, work-stress etc?
5) find other ways to reciprocate with your friends without feeling embarrassed/that you can do cheaply, invite them to a beach picnic, or bbq in the park etc.
[1] when i was junior professional my peers all had fancy watched (either purchased or given to them) and i was envious / wanted to blend in - i was given some good advice, and instead of buying a watch to blend in I put the money into a discrete mutual fund, that i could redeem at at any time to buy the watch...after a few months of sticking with my casio (but knowing i could buy the watch)...i didn't really care about it any more and wasn't envious/self-conscious anymore...it was all in my head.
Give yourself permission to feel jealous. You are not your emotions. Thinking "I must not feel bad. I must not feel jealous" is a surefire way to add to your anguish. (Acting on your feelings is a different story.)
Realise that everyone has these feelings. Accept these feelings. I'm sure your friendships are based on more than a bank balance. You say you're ashamed of your house? Do your friends even care about your house?
Realise that everyone has these feelings. Accept these feelings. I'm sure your friendships are based on more than a bank balance. You say you're ashamed of your house? Do your friends even care about your house?
I'm 27 and make a pittance compared to most of my friends who work in finance or have FAANG jobs. Does it sort of suck, yeah. But at the same time I can afford to live in New York and know at what point I'm going to call it. If in three years I don't have my own place in the city, I'm going to move somewhere in the midwest and just start enjoying who I am. Sometimes I feel like I look backwards in my life to find reasons why where I am now is great considering where I came from, but then I realize how scary it is to see people who become complacent and stop improving. That said, if I'm simply unable to achieve great financial success I'm not going to keep deluding myself through my thirties.
At this stage in my life I'm glad to have successful friends who seem to respect what I have to say and encourage me to work hard and continue moving forward.
Some others have said it, but life is too short to spend it around people who make you feel like shit and don't realize they're doing it. Nice people can be shitty people - life is too short to spend it around people like that.
At this stage in my life I'm glad to have successful friends who seem to respect what I have to say and encourage me to work hard and continue moving forward.
Some others have said it, but life is too short to spend it around people who make you feel like shit and don't realize they're doing it. Nice people can be shitty people - life is too short to spend it around people like that.
What would you do if your friends slowly went to the other side of the political spectrum?
IMO - your reaction here would be very similar. May be you (and your friends) will have the ability to peacefully coexist OR you split up. It is harsh - but the friends who have remained from my poorer times are the ones who are able to be happy with the ups and downs. Some were lost along the way. I have tried and helped some as well - but that again requires a mindset that will allow you to take or give without issues. I will probably hire friends as well in the future - but probably only the ones who can handle it (am assuming I can) will last I guess. C’est la vie.
The tough part is - as you diverge in wealth in either direction, your focus and problems change with it. It is easy to think rich people have no problems - but in reality they have rich people problems. They do want to discuss these. They do want to enjoy their new found wealth with others. Sometimes it is just not possible to keep an open mind through all these - so we move on.
IMO - your reaction here would be very similar. May be you (and your friends) will have the ability to peacefully coexist OR you split up. It is harsh - but the friends who have remained from my poorer times are the ones who are able to be happy with the ups and downs. Some were lost along the way. I have tried and helped some as well - but that again requires a mindset that will allow you to take or give without issues. I will probably hire friends as well in the future - but probably only the ones who can handle it (am assuming I can) will last I guess. C’est la vie.
The tough part is - as you diverge in wealth in either direction, your focus and problems change with it. It is easy to think rich people have no problems - but in reality they have rich people problems. They do want to discuss these. They do want to enjoy their new found wealth with others. Sometimes it is just not possible to keep an open mind through all these - so we move on.
I legitimately don't understand people who care so much about themselves they can't be happy for others. I had a "friend" try to destroy me because of envy. I worked hard for the little I had that in an area he didn't. To be unable to control the compulsion wrought by envy is pathetic to say the least.
You don't need much to survive in this world. And that's enough to be happy. You can always trade down your friends to people who are less wealthy and the problem of keeping up with the joneses is solved near instantly. You also don't even need friends. Just drop them if they are a-holes, trust me they wont notice, especially those guys compulsively running rat race. They are the npc's of this world, and they don't even know it. Mindless drones working to outdo other mindless drones. They'll be working to out-status the next guy until they're dead. Trust me they are robotic status seeking machines. That's why they try to one up everyone, that's why they try to make you feel bad, that's why they try to hide the fact that they want to make you feel bad to fit in with society so society will accept them, that's why they kiss ass and kick down, that's why when their boss tells them to jump, they ask "how high?". They are a cataclysm of anxiety and compulsion driven, emotional status seeking machines. You find this out when you break their machine logic and they are unable to find a prewritten routine. They literally look like broken computers as you watch their OS short circuit, and you realize how little humanity they have.
> Rich people aren’t aware that their tales of success make people like me feel bad.
Because quite often they aren't aware at all. To live in a world of full of other people and not even be able recognize others exist.
You don't want to be them. You want to be in control of you and your destiny. Find your inner child. Find your soul and live your life.
You don't need much to survive in this world. And that's enough to be happy. You can always trade down your friends to people who are less wealthy and the problem of keeping up with the joneses is solved near instantly. You also don't even need friends. Just drop them if they are a-holes, trust me they wont notice, especially those guys compulsively running rat race. They are the npc's of this world, and they don't even know it. Mindless drones working to outdo other mindless drones. They'll be working to out-status the next guy until they're dead. Trust me they are robotic status seeking machines. That's why they try to one up everyone, that's why they try to make you feel bad, that's why they try to hide the fact that they want to make you feel bad to fit in with society so society will accept them, that's why they kiss ass and kick down, that's why when their boss tells them to jump, they ask "how high?". They are a cataclysm of anxiety and compulsion driven, emotional status seeking machines. You find this out when you break their machine logic and they are unable to find a prewritten routine. They literally look like broken computers as you watch their OS short circuit, and you realize how little humanity they have.
> Rich people aren’t aware that their tales of success make people like me feel bad.
Because quite often they aren't aware at all. To live in a world of full of other people and not even be able recognize others exist.
You don't want to be them. You want to be in control of you and your destiny. Find your inner child. Find your soul and live your life.
> I try to be happy for them and gracious and to listen and enthuse whilst they tell me of their good fortune
Just like you don't have to live up to an economic ideal, nor do you have to live up to a rational/moral ideal. Maybe just fully have the emotions you're having rather than 'trying' not to because logic or politeness or whatever.
I'm sorry. Those are difficult feelings to sit with. You really do love your friends.
Context: someone with money and lots of loved ones with far less, a couple with significantly more. I am angry that my friend has a $2M home and two Teslas in the driveway for being at the right place/right time. But it's my own desire for more that feeds this envy. I almost never go see this friend and all his new gadgets, instead would rather pickup burgers and sit on the bed of my much closer friend's studio apartment and talk about things one can't purchase.
Just like you don't have to live up to an economic ideal, nor do you have to live up to a rational/moral ideal. Maybe just fully have the emotions you're having rather than 'trying' not to because logic or politeness or whatever.
I'm sorry. Those are difficult feelings to sit with. You really do love your friends.
Context: someone with money and lots of loved ones with far less, a couple with significantly more. I am angry that my friend has a $2M home and two Teslas in the driveway for being at the right place/right time. But it's my own desire for more that feeds this envy. I almost never go see this friend and all his new gadgets, instead would rather pickup burgers and sit on the bed of my much closer friend's studio apartment and talk about things one can't purchase.
You should consider why money is so important to you, and if it should be (assuming, of course, you are not starving and can comfortably provide a roof over your head). Plenty of people choose careers that don't pay particularly well but are more fulfilling in some other way (e.g. artists, many social workers, many teachers). If your friends are judging you for not having as much money (not saying you are, but it seems like you might be afraid of this?), it's them that's the problem, not you.
(For context, I have an adequate amount of money that is much smaller than many of my friends who are outside of academia, though larger than my friends who are social workers; but if I were to leave academia I probably could become significantly wealthier, so I can say all this from a place of privilege).
(For context, I have an adequate amount of money that is much smaller than many of my friends who are outside of academia, though larger than my friends who are social workers; but if I were to leave academia I probably could become significantly wealthier, so I can say all this from a place of privilege).
Your value as a person isn't in wealth. Maybe catalog what you have and see how fortunate you actually are? You may be further from the bottom than you think.
Culturally, your value as a person is correlated to wealth. Society is structured to be more difficult for those who don’t have high paying jobs, material goods or stable housing / real estate.
A glass half-full approach doesn’t resolve wealth inequality.
A glass half-full approach doesn’t resolve wealth inequality.
I no longer tell my family about my success, because it begets requests for help. And it seems like other more distant family just wind up being jealous. It’s kind of isolating, because most of us want to share our highs and lows with old friends, not new friends.
I don’t really have any specific advice, except for maybe try to be empathetic.
Your friends or family probably have all the exact problems as before, except now they can try to use money to fix them. But the money might not even work: think of all the celebs you know about who still struggle with mental health, drug abuse and family problems.
That is to say, understand the money doesn’t fix all their problems. So in other words enjoy the fancy meals or nice views your friends share with you. But remember there’s only one dimension of life that’s better for them.
I don’t really have any specific advice, except for maybe try to be empathetic.
Your friends or family probably have all the exact problems as before, except now they can try to use money to fix them. But the money might not even work: think of all the celebs you know about who still struggle with mental health, drug abuse and family problems.
That is to say, understand the money doesn’t fix all their problems. So in other words enjoy the fancy meals or nice views your friends share with you. But remember there’s only one dimension of life that’s better for them.
You should be happy that you have rich friends and relatives.
For starters, every such person is one less who will ever come to you asking for money.
Secondly, those people are all contacts of yours who are good at making money; instead of wasting time on envy, use these contacts somehow to improve your own position.
I would just say, "Hey man, I noticed you've improved your economic situation quite a lot in the last decade, while I'm floundering. I am not a spendthrift, and work hard at my job, yet it's not getting me anywhere. Do you have any advice how to get in on some better action?"
Or whatever.
Maybe these people have businesses you could join or something.
For starters, every such person is one less who will ever come to you asking for money.
Secondly, those people are all contacts of yours who are good at making money; instead of wasting time on envy, use these contacts somehow to improve your own position.
I would just say, "Hey man, I noticed you've improved your economic situation quite a lot in the last decade, while I'm floundering. I am not a spendthrift, and work hard at my job, yet it's not getting me anywhere. Do you have any advice how to get in on some better action?"
Or whatever.
Maybe these people have businesses you could join or something.
Society told you to work hard in the past, go to university, earn a PhD and work for rest of your time to accumulate wealth.
In modern life, Jake Paul comes and make billion dollar in 2 years selling poisonous content. When he accumulates billion, he becomes God figure that will enlighten our youth from darkness.
In Canada, PhD holders are renting shared rooms to keep the hustle going while illiterate immigrants who are getting into Flipping and Real estate investment market have accumulated multi million dollars in investments.
People taking shortcuts is the only secret way to richness in 2022 and onwards. If you have a 9-5 mindset, you will live and die poor.
In modern life, Jake Paul comes and make billion dollar in 2 years selling poisonous content. When he accumulates billion, he becomes God figure that will enlighten our youth from darkness.
In Canada, PhD holders are renting shared rooms to keep the hustle going while illiterate immigrants who are getting into Flipping and Real estate investment market have accumulated multi million dollars in investments.
People taking shortcuts is the only secret way to richness in 2022 and onwards. If you have a 9-5 mindset, you will live and die poor.
Much as i hate this answer, i have to admit this is the current-day "Truth". In the spirit of Machiavelli/Kautilya we need to learn to face "Reality as it is" rather than "What we would like it to be".
A 9-5 job just gives you enough to survive (not always comfortably) in Society, but there are no guarantees. However, if you bend your Morals/Ethics, lose your sense of Shame/Dignity, willing to screw over anybody to get the slightest advantage, you will go far.
A 9-5 job just gives you enough to survive (not always comfortably) in Society, but there are no guarantees. However, if you bend your Morals/Ethics, lose your sense of Shame/Dignity, willing to screw over anybody to get the slightest advantage, you will go far.
I am by no means rich, but I have a bit of money, certainly a lot more than I used to have. Some of my friends have less, and some actually struggle a bit.
I am aware of it, it also sort of makes me feel bad/uncomfortable in the sense that I don't per se think I deserve it more than people who have less. I don't want to come off as a show off, or confront them unnecessary. I would like to help, but I don't have the funds to actually resolve stuff, also don't want to come off as denigrating. It's difficult. What helps is to think we like each other and money is not relevant to that, the best we can do is be there for each other as friends. And I am confident they would let me know if they need & want help financially or otherwise, as I would with them.
I also have a friend who is properly rich imo, it does make me feel a bit envy at times and question my own situation, but again I like hanging out with the dude, and I don't mind spending time in his fancy house either haha. Instead of thinking "I don't have this" I just enjoy the perks.
The other thing that helps for me is to realize I don't need a fancy house, or car, or whatever. Money should not define you, and money can only do so much, it's no guarantee for happiness. Things obviously are more tricky when you don't have enough and actually struggle as that can make life very difficult, I've experienced some of that in the past and it's really just no fun.
I am aware of it, it also sort of makes me feel bad/uncomfortable in the sense that I don't per se think I deserve it more than people who have less. I don't want to come off as a show off, or confront them unnecessary. I would like to help, but I don't have the funds to actually resolve stuff, also don't want to come off as denigrating. It's difficult. What helps is to think we like each other and money is not relevant to that, the best we can do is be there for each other as friends. And I am confident they would let me know if they need & want help financially or otherwise, as I would with them.
I also have a friend who is properly rich imo, it does make me feel a bit envy at times and question my own situation, but again I like hanging out with the dude, and I don't mind spending time in his fancy house either haha. Instead of thinking "I don't have this" I just enjoy the perks.
The other thing that helps for me is to realize I don't need a fancy house, or car, or whatever. Money should not define you, and money can only do so much, it's no guarantee for happiness. Things obviously are more tricky when you don't have enough and actually struggle as that can make life very difficult, I've experienced some of that in the past and it's really just no fun.
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I grew up poor and for the longest time, I hated rich people and even hated well-off people. I was jealous that they were able to afford things like going out to a eat, laptops, a safe environment to live in, etc. I especially hated kids who had rich or well-off parents because those kids had it so easy and had more opportunities. They were able to focus on school, and got everything they needed for school. While I struggled so much more. I hated that they had less to overcome. They didn’t need to spend their energy getting caught up. What helped me were a few things:
(1) Getting a job that paid ~45K a year and paying off my debt
(2) Changing my mindset from hating rich people to wanting to have success like them. I still have bitterness, but now I try to think how did they became successful, and how can I become wealthy?
(3) Realizing that even though I grew up poor, there are people who grew up even poorer. It’s no use feeling constantly sorry for yourself. It only holds you back. You will always be more well-off then a lot of other people. And there will always be a lot of people who has it worse than you. I became grateful for what growing up poor taught me. A shit ton more resilience, empathy, and adaptability then someone who had it easy.
(4) I stopped comparing and designed my life how I want it within my financial limits. It also helps that I never wanted to keep up with the Joneses.
(1) Getting a job that paid ~45K a year and paying off my debt
(2) Changing my mindset from hating rich people to wanting to have success like them. I still have bitterness, but now I try to think how did they became successful, and how can I become wealthy?
(3) Realizing that even though I grew up poor, there are people who grew up even poorer. It’s no use feeling constantly sorry for yourself. It only holds you back. You will always be more well-off then a lot of other people. And there will always be a lot of people who has it worse than you. I became grateful for what growing up poor taught me. A shit ton more resilience, empathy, and adaptability then someone who had it easy.
(4) I stopped comparing and designed my life how I want it within my financial limits. It also helps that I never wanted to keep up with the Joneses.
For many years I was the one with no money. Recently, at a rather advanced age (late forties) I hit it big with one of my startups. I'm now wealthy. So I can give you a perspective from both sides.
First, when I was in my 20s, in the first dotcom bubble, many of my friends became ridiculously wealthy. I probably should have felt envy, but at that time I was very self absorbed and focused on my own projects. Also, I was very naive and thought there was not much utility to money beyond 40K to 50K a year. At the time I was making 100K a year and felt good enough about it.
However, as the years progressed and I entered my thirties my youthful dreams of having a successful software business were crushed. I began to see how money liberated my friends from the kind of drudgery I was condemned too. This was brought particularly into focus on one instance, when a friend of mine who was very successful was invited to a tradeshow where I happened to be exhibiting on behalf of an employer. My friend came to visit me at my humble little booth, and he was followed by a literal entourage of hanger-ons. After we had a chat he asked me to join him for an after party and told someone in his crowd to put me on a list so I could attend. Unfortunately, after the exhibit floor closed I was tied up doing manual labor ... packing demo hardware, hauling things to storage, etc. I was not able to get to the party until around midnight. My friend was totally oblivious to my peon duties and just assumed I was at some other party. I never told him the truth ... that I was just packing boxes ... not at another party. I had a few drinks and appetizers with him, but was so exhausted I fell asleep while sitting on a sofa near the bar.
The next day, to add insult to injury, I was waiting for a shuttle to the airport and my friend had a black car. He took me with him and dropped me off at the gate. I did not ask him about how he was getting home ... but I think he basically had some kind of speedy pass to bypass checkin.
These kinds of things happened from time to time in San Francisco ... but it never really bothered me to the point of depression. I just felt a bit frustrated that my journey was taking so much longer. I had 7 failed startups before I hit it big.
Now let me tell you a few advantages of hitting it big later: 1) I did not pick up any gold-digging women in my youth, which caused complications for several of my friends. When you get rich, you attract many women who are far more attractive than you could if you are not rich. Your brain gets hooked on that level of attractiveness and you have a sort of hedonic adaptation I think. Many of my friends ended up with women that are essentially cost centers. They don't provide much value add beyond companionship. I was lucky enough to meet a woman when I was broke. She basically invested in me, and we got married before I hit it big. She makes a large salary on her own and does the lion's share of domestic work too. She's also attractive. I met her because I was trying to make a living. She's not the kind of woman you meet on the party circuit. 2) Similarly with friends. All my friends are people I've known for a while. Not people that need things from me. I have friends that have hanger ons that are not good for them mentally as they validate everything they do without critical thinking. It can be dangerous. 3) My tastes and expenses are very low as a result of decades of cheap living. Although I'm probably about the same level of material wealth as my rich friends now, I think I have more optionality as I can withstand those 1 in 100 geopolitical changes and still have enough to provide for my modest lifestyle till death. I have some friends that are one tech/crypto/real estate bubble pop away from not being able to maintain their jetset lifestyle. There's more misery downgrading your lifestyle then joy from upgrading it. Its Hedonic adaptation in action. 4) As a result of good fortune I realized the real value of money is just the optionality and freedom from stress. Big houses and nice cars and stuff give diminishing returns. The irony is, everything I have now, I had before. And to be honest, my money sometimes adds huge stress to my life. I'm always wondering how to preserve it. I'm worried my cash positions are eroding due to inflation. I'm worried my stocks will crash due to fed action. I'm worried my crypto will go down. I'm worried I'm not invested in commodities and oil. I'm worried I didn't buy farm land ... what if everything collapses and I have to grow food for my kids. Should I buy some property outside the USA in case there's a collapse here. All these things were not even options before so I didn't worry. Now I worry all the time.
Edit: Your friends should have the sense not to talk about money around you when you don't have much. I actually make this error myself and need to do better. 90% of the time money and belongings are a useless topic.
First, when I was in my 20s, in the first dotcom bubble, many of my friends became ridiculously wealthy. I probably should have felt envy, but at that time I was very self absorbed and focused on my own projects. Also, I was very naive and thought there was not much utility to money beyond 40K to 50K a year. At the time I was making 100K a year and felt good enough about it.
However, as the years progressed and I entered my thirties my youthful dreams of having a successful software business were crushed. I began to see how money liberated my friends from the kind of drudgery I was condemned too. This was brought particularly into focus on one instance, when a friend of mine who was very successful was invited to a tradeshow where I happened to be exhibiting on behalf of an employer. My friend came to visit me at my humble little booth, and he was followed by a literal entourage of hanger-ons. After we had a chat he asked me to join him for an after party and told someone in his crowd to put me on a list so I could attend. Unfortunately, after the exhibit floor closed I was tied up doing manual labor ... packing demo hardware, hauling things to storage, etc. I was not able to get to the party until around midnight. My friend was totally oblivious to my peon duties and just assumed I was at some other party. I never told him the truth ... that I was just packing boxes ... not at another party. I had a few drinks and appetizers with him, but was so exhausted I fell asleep while sitting on a sofa near the bar.
The next day, to add insult to injury, I was waiting for a shuttle to the airport and my friend had a black car. He took me with him and dropped me off at the gate. I did not ask him about how he was getting home ... but I think he basically had some kind of speedy pass to bypass checkin.
These kinds of things happened from time to time in San Francisco ... but it never really bothered me to the point of depression. I just felt a bit frustrated that my journey was taking so much longer. I had 7 failed startups before I hit it big.
Now let me tell you a few advantages of hitting it big later: 1) I did not pick up any gold-digging women in my youth, which caused complications for several of my friends. When you get rich, you attract many women who are far more attractive than you could if you are not rich. Your brain gets hooked on that level of attractiveness and you have a sort of hedonic adaptation I think. Many of my friends ended up with women that are essentially cost centers. They don't provide much value add beyond companionship. I was lucky enough to meet a woman when I was broke. She basically invested in me, and we got married before I hit it big. She makes a large salary on her own and does the lion's share of domestic work too. She's also attractive. I met her because I was trying to make a living. She's not the kind of woman you meet on the party circuit. 2) Similarly with friends. All my friends are people I've known for a while. Not people that need things from me. I have friends that have hanger ons that are not good for them mentally as they validate everything they do without critical thinking. It can be dangerous. 3) My tastes and expenses are very low as a result of decades of cheap living. Although I'm probably about the same level of material wealth as my rich friends now, I think I have more optionality as I can withstand those 1 in 100 geopolitical changes and still have enough to provide for my modest lifestyle till death. I have some friends that are one tech/crypto/real estate bubble pop away from not being able to maintain their jetset lifestyle. There's more misery downgrading your lifestyle then joy from upgrading it. Its Hedonic adaptation in action. 4) As a result of good fortune I realized the real value of money is just the optionality and freedom from stress. Big houses and nice cars and stuff give diminishing returns. The irony is, everything I have now, I had before. And to be honest, my money sometimes adds huge stress to my life. I'm always wondering how to preserve it. I'm worried my cash positions are eroding due to inflation. I'm worried my stocks will crash due to fed action. I'm worried my crypto will go down. I'm worried I'm not invested in commodities and oil. I'm worried I didn't buy farm land ... what if everything collapses and I have to grow food for my kids. Should I buy some property outside the USA in case there's a collapse here. All these things were not even options before so I didn't worry. Now I worry all the time.
Edit: Your friends should have the sense not to talk about money around you when you don't have much. I actually make this error myself and need to do better. 90% of the time money and belongings are a useless topic.
90% of the time money and belongings are a useless topic.
1. Comparison is the thief of happiness
2. If being around a person makes you unhappy (for whatever reason), cease being around that person.
I learned these lessons the hard way. They are excellent heuristics.
2. If being around a person makes you unhappy (for whatever reason), cease being around that person.
I learned these lessons the hard way. They are excellent heuristics.
Wealth is just another axis.
You may well have pretty friends, learned friends, tenured friends. Married friends, hippie friends. ...
One person can't even be all of this at once. So why be jealous of it?
You may well have pretty friends, learned friends, tenured friends. Married friends, hippie friends. ...
One person can't even be all of this at once. So why be jealous of it?
not to mention that I know people with way more money that me that if asked, would you want to trade places with them its an easy "no-way"
I guess the only way is to change your thinking... you can't really let them lose their fortunes but being grateful and focusing on your own game.
I get it, we all get fomo from time to time, me included. Its ok to feel this way.
I have a friend who earned a few mil, without doing much work or being super smart. Then he turned into more mil with crypto because he had capital to invest. When he speaks to me it always feels like a gambler that never has taken risk into consideration just got super lucky and its frankly annoying because he doesn't even know how blockchain works. But does it matter?
We always feel like we are destined or privileged for fortunes because we worked so hard or have an intelligence of higher species above normal humans, but world just doesn't operate this way.
Frankly I just learned to live with the fact that there is randomness, there is luck, there is best effort and things you can control.
What helps though is focusing on doing what matters to you because when you are "flowing" and just intrinsically curious about stuff in your real life it pushes you away from materialistic success.
Ambiguity also helps, once you will be near death experience, all these things fade away.
I recommend Denial of Death book.
I get it, we all get fomo from time to time, me included. Its ok to feel this way.
I have a friend who earned a few mil, without doing much work or being super smart. Then he turned into more mil with crypto because he had capital to invest. When he speaks to me it always feels like a gambler that never has taken risk into consideration just got super lucky and its frankly annoying because he doesn't even know how blockchain works. But does it matter?
We always feel like we are destined or privileged for fortunes because we worked so hard or have an intelligence of higher species above normal humans, but world just doesn't operate this way.
Frankly I just learned to live with the fact that there is randomness, there is luck, there is best effort and things you can control.
What helps though is focusing on doing what matters to you because when you are "flowing" and just intrinsically curious about stuff in your real life it pushes you away from materialistic success.
Ambiguity also helps, once you will be near death experience, all these things fade away.
I recommend Denial of Death book.
I have been poor enough to need to borrow money for food. I have been well off enough to have many years salary in the bank. Happiness is almost 100% independent of money.
It's an almost Buddhist concept, but you cannot be happy comparing yourself to others. You must find what makes you happy and then not worry about the rest.
How cool it is that you can chill at some friends pool (for free!). Pools are expensive - Live cheap instead!
> I'm at the bottom with nothing:
Anything worth having, like "good people, great friends", is ... FREE! And you seem to have it. So that is definitely not "Nothing".
> Rich people aren’t aware that their tales of success make people like me feel bad.
Annoyed at bragging maybe, but bad? No. That's your fault. How does someone else's success (or riches) make your plight worse? It doesn't. And being rich doesn't make their life better either. If you say "now that sounds like bragging", you can embarrass them. Is that what you want? But you probably don't.
Tales are tales. Tell a tale of being cheap and poor. It'll be as fun as rich and daring. Telling either or both tales is just idle entertainment, neither are that serious.
It's an almost Buddhist concept, but you cannot be happy comparing yourself to others. You must find what makes you happy and then not worry about the rest.
How cool it is that you can chill at some friends pool (for free!). Pools are expensive - Live cheap instead!
> I'm at the bottom with nothing:
Anything worth having, like "good people, great friends", is ... FREE! And you seem to have it. So that is definitely not "Nothing".
> Rich people aren’t aware that their tales of success make people like me feel bad.
Annoyed at bragging maybe, but bad? No. That's your fault. How does someone else's success (or riches) make your plight worse? It doesn't. And being rich doesn't make their life better either. If you say "now that sounds like bragging", you can embarrass them. Is that what you want? But you probably don't.
Tales are tales. Tell a tale of being cheap and poor. It'll be as fun as rich and daring. Telling either or both tales is just idle entertainment, neither are that serious.
Money doesn't make you happy, unless you have more of it than your peers. So I suggest you erase all memory of your rich friends and instead get accquainted with poorer perople. You'll be happier, apparently.
https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/key-factor-in-well-be...
https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/key-factor-in-well-be...
Context: I'm significantly wealthier than some of my friends, and I have friends significantly wealthier than myself.
I'm somewhat censoring myself when talking to the friends that have much less. I don't mention prices of things I buy, or the amount of money I earn or spend, because I know some of the things I comfortably impulse-buy are items that they'd have to spend months saving up for. I understand that while I'm happy about my new stuff, and I'm glad I got a good deal, mentioning (paraphrased) "oh, i saved your months salary on this neat new toy" will make me come off as bragging and arrogant and it'd not contribute anything meaningful to the conversation. There are things I simply don't mention I have because I know how they'd feel envious, not because they are bad people, but because they are human and it's somewhat in our nature to compare ourselves to our peers.
I have friends who are orders of magnitude richer than myself, and I guess my experience with being wealthier than others, makes it easier to brush it off, I try hard not to be envious or jealous, and I fail from time to time, and then I decide to keep away for a while, not because I dislike them, but because I value our friendship. I've sometimes poked at them, when they say "oh, I got this new thing, that cost N money" and I will say something like "I'm really happy for you, I couldn't afford that, it's what I earn in a year" and I think that while it's polite enough, they get the point.
Added context: We're not in the million dollar range, probably only one or two people I know are, and they're not close friends, or really friends at all.. We're still pretty average (way below HN "average" ;) )
I'm somewhat censoring myself when talking to the friends that have much less. I don't mention prices of things I buy, or the amount of money I earn or spend, because I know some of the things I comfortably impulse-buy are items that they'd have to spend months saving up for. I understand that while I'm happy about my new stuff, and I'm glad I got a good deal, mentioning (paraphrased) "oh, i saved your months salary on this neat new toy" will make me come off as bragging and arrogant and it'd not contribute anything meaningful to the conversation. There are things I simply don't mention I have because I know how they'd feel envious, not because they are bad people, but because they are human and it's somewhat in our nature to compare ourselves to our peers.
I have friends who are orders of magnitude richer than myself, and I guess my experience with being wealthier than others, makes it easier to brush it off, I try hard not to be envious or jealous, and I fail from time to time, and then I decide to keep away for a while, not because I dislike them, but because I value our friendship. I've sometimes poked at them, when they say "oh, I got this new thing, that cost N money" and I will say something like "I'm really happy for you, I couldn't afford that, it's what I earn in a year" and I think that while it's polite enough, they get the point.
Added context: We're not in the million dollar range, probably only one or two people I know are, and they're not close friends, or really friends at all.. We're still pretty average (way below HN "average" ;) )
I'm not "rich", but for some perspective: both of my parents are immigrants. Dad never climbed the career ladder, nor learned much about finances in the US. He likely makes the same amount of money as he did 30 years ago when adjusted for inflation. Mom went to night school for nursing while I was a kid, and makes decent money for this area. After doing a 4-year CS program, and working for a couple years, I crossed the six-figure mark and now make a decent salary for an average HN reader. I make more than twice of my father's salary, and much more than my mother's.
I know I worked hard, but I know I didn't work as hard as my father or mother. If anything, I was reasonably intelligent and was lucky because I was internet savvy and knew enough to pick a career that was in demand. What I'm saying here is to dispel this weird idea that wealth is directly correlated with hard work or skill.
I follow an artist and game developer from Brazil. He routinely blogs about his life, and live in a small (but nice) apartment. It's clear that I'm able to afford a much higher standard of living than he, but in the end, it's me who's envious of him for his skill in artistry and game development, meanwhile I'm here writing fucking CRUD apps for some tech startup that's injected with VC money and is able to pay their employees inflated salaries so they can live in Valley homes.
What I'm getting at is what's probably no surprise to you -- it's easy to be envious of wealth and material possessions, but it's also easy to mistake wealth or self-worth.
I'm kinda writing this in a rush, so my advice to you would be to read the Stoics, perhaps A Guide to the Good Life by Irvine, and for some lighter reading, try Fumio Sasaki's book on Japanese Minimalism.
I know I worked hard, but I know I didn't work as hard as my father or mother. If anything, I was reasonably intelligent and was lucky because I was internet savvy and knew enough to pick a career that was in demand. What I'm saying here is to dispel this weird idea that wealth is directly correlated with hard work or skill.
I follow an artist and game developer from Brazil. He routinely blogs about his life, and live in a small (but nice) apartment. It's clear that I'm able to afford a much higher standard of living than he, but in the end, it's me who's envious of him for his skill in artistry and game development, meanwhile I'm here writing fucking CRUD apps for some tech startup that's injected with VC money and is able to pay their employees inflated salaries so they can live in Valley homes.
What I'm getting at is what's probably no surprise to you -- it's easy to be envious of wealth and material possessions, but it's also easy to mistake wealth or self-worth.
I'm kinda writing this in a rush, so my advice to you would be to read the Stoics, perhaps A Guide to the Good Life by Irvine, and for some lighter reading, try Fumio Sasaki's book on Japanese Minimalism.
To OP - In "The Tyranny of Merit", Harvard philosopher Michael Sandel argues against the idea of meritocracy, both true meritocracy and the current system of markets running rampant enriching some people massively at the expense of others, yet claiming to be truly meritocratic. He argues the winners will have "meritocratic hubris" where they fail to recognise the pure luck and good fortune that accounts for much of their position, while losers (as in losers in the system, not "loser" in the derogatory sense) blame themselves unfairly and feel humiliated. He links that to the rise of the far right .. not sure I'd go that far but its an interesting hypothesis. Seems to me you and your friends could be in this exact position. Your friend's house that increased in value - they simply got lucky, right place right time, possibly had some skills timing the market. You're made to feel bad just because you haven't yet had your lucky break. Seems to me such massive wealth disparity is destructive to people's relationships with friends and family, including the people who got rich. Its easy to see those left poor are suffering. But actually do the rich ones really benefit from having millions if it wrecks their relationships? My advice, avoid jealousy or envy as unhappiness lies down that path. Instead, recognise that luck plays an enormous part, try to come to terms with that. If you can earn more and/or live frugally to sort your own finances out, then do that. I recognise that may or may not be easy / possible. Writing this as someone of average means - some friends have houses worth twice ours, (and people we never mix with have more than that), some friends have very little. We feel we're in the middle, get by by being careful with spending, and are happy with what we have. Good luck. I think asking this Q on HN is good, and also suggests you're trying to be a good friend and a nice person :)
We’re all insecure, and we’re all fortunate, to varying degrees. I feel rich in many ways, and money only relatively, having grown up in poverty in the USA and not yet had access to beyond the low end of “Middle Class”. If this country cared more about the well-being of all who live here (extending that to all life, but let’s keep it human for now) I’d probably be less anxious about how close I am to having to spend most of my time on meeting the basic needs of my family. As it is, I enjoy hours of free time each day. I’m confident I’d adjust, but there’d be a cost unless I could be like Viktor Frankl.
People with access to far more resources than me are still people and still have challenges. The shine is off; such wealth alone doesn’t make them interesting to me, it’s the choices they make that matter. Perhaps reevaluate your relationships with these folks? Ask yourself: why do I maintain these friendships, and to what degree are they transactional?
People with access to far more resources than me are still people and still have challenges. The shine is off; such wealth alone doesn’t make them interesting to me, it’s the choices they make that matter. Perhaps reevaluate your relationships with these folks? Ask yourself: why do I maintain these friendships, and to what degree are they transactional?
Use your envy for good. Find out how they made money and copy. Get insight into another world and use it to make your life better.
Unfortunately this is not really specific advice. I was recently talking to a friend who wants to be a specialist nurse. There is no road to working as a specialist nurse for FAANG sized salaries.
The buying power of the middle class in the USA has been wrecked.
If Picketty (Capital in the 21st Century) is right then we will have a level of wealth inequality close to the french revolution in 9 years.
Maybe we should be looking at institutional class labor (nurse, teacher, doctor, accountant) purchasing power as a better indicator.
The buying power of the middle class in the USA has been wrecked.
If Picketty (Capital in the 21st Century) is right then we will have a level of wealth inequality close to the french revolution in 9 years.
Maybe we should be looking at institutional class labor (nurse, teacher, doctor, accountant) purchasing power as a better indicator.
It's hard to duplicate luck.
The majority of wealthy people get there by starting small businesses or slowly piling up investments via a consistently high income such that they have a surplus of capital coming in regularly (eg dentist, accountant, doctor, real-estate agent, software developer, psychologist, nurse practitioner, pharmacist, veterinarian, lawyer, and dozens of other higher paying careers).
Those aren't primarily luck, even though it obviously plays a role in every path.
Those aren't primarily luck, even though it obviously plays a role in every path.
The luck involved in obtaining "a consistently high income" in the first place.
Definitely. I didn't know that I can earn well with programming when I chose CS for my Master's. I didn't know that in Uni either, and still didn't know that in my first job. I assumed it'll be the same as, say, electrical or chemistry major. Not really sure when that became apparent.
Or rich parents who care and have time for you. Always reminds me of the comic [1] On a plate by Toby Morris.
[1] https://digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a...
[1] https://digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a...
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You shouldn't be happy for their possessions, the world isnt a zero-sum game but it isn't infinite sum either; you may feel that it's unfair that they made large sums of money easily and you may be right. Try to use it as a motivator, and don't stroke their ego - it's not necessary for either of you.
Well, people who flaunt their money are simply not that pleasant to be around. My friends and I have varying degrees of financial success but we don't really talk about money related issues much.
If they are your friends, you can tell them about how their stories make you feel. If they don't care, then maybe you need new friends.
If they are your friends, you can tell them about how their stories make you feel. If they don't care, then maybe you need new friends.
I'm not wealthy. I grew up at the high end of poor.
I earn less than most US developers, despite almost a decade of experience.
Recently half my work place one the lottery in a pool. Most getting 200k each. I didn't go in the pool.
I drive a car worth less than 5k. My house is not in the best area and it needs work.
What you're experiencing used to be called envy. When you experience discomfort when someone else does well. Envy hurts you the most, you can experience joy when your friends do well. Their success can encourage and inspire you.
They key, I think, is knowing that you're a success. Well done you for what you have achieved. Another thing is to look at where you fit in the bigger picture. You're easily in the top 1% of global wealth.
There is something built in to us to climb hierarchies. You can climb without getting down that you're not on top. There is always a bigger fish, but you're a pretty big fish yourself.
I earn less than most US developers, despite almost a decade of experience.
Recently half my work place one the lottery in a pool. Most getting 200k each. I didn't go in the pool.
I drive a car worth less than 5k. My house is not in the best area and it needs work.
What you're experiencing used to be called envy. When you experience discomfort when someone else does well. Envy hurts you the most, you can experience joy when your friends do well. Their success can encourage and inspire you.
They key, I think, is knowing that you're a success. Well done you for what you have achieved. Another thing is to look at where you fit in the bigger picture. You're easily in the top 1% of global wealth.
There is something built in to us to climb hierarchies. You can climb without getting down that you're not on top. There is always a bigger fish, but you're a pretty big fish yourself.
Not a direct answer but something to add.
Most people, according to social research (whatever that means in terms of scientific process), experience mostly similar happiness once they rise to an income where they are staying ahead of the bills.
This does not mean people are as happy as they think they would be if they had more income, but it is a never ending want for more. It does not matter how much more.
There is a documentary 'What Would Jesus Buy' that goes into a lot of this.
There is always a place for some jealousy and it does not ever go away. Life is not actually fair just because people pretend it is. Some people get the breaks, some people don't. I know people who made outrageous amounts of money by being in the right place at the right time. I know other people who are smart and work hard but don't seem to have hit it rich yet. Other people worked hard and took some risks and did well.
Most people, according to social research (whatever that means in terms of scientific process), experience mostly similar happiness once they rise to an income where they are staying ahead of the bills.
This does not mean people are as happy as they think they would be if they had more income, but it is a never ending want for more. It does not matter how much more.
There is a documentary 'What Would Jesus Buy' that goes into a lot of this.
There is always a place for some jealousy and it does not ever go away. Life is not actually fair just because people pretend it is. Some people get the breaks, some people don't. I know people who made outrageous amounts of money by being in the right place at the right time. I know other people who are smart and work hard but don't seem to have hit it rich yet. Other people worked hard and took some risks and did well.
1. Don't define yourself by your home or other posessions, define yourself by your values e.g. how you help others.
2. You did not elaborate in your post what is the reason for your own situation, but having a rental home implies you still have a bank account with a positive balance, even a regular income, so this is is not really "bottom"; and I hope for you that you will never know what "real bottom" means.
3. Rene Girard's main concept is "mimetic theory," which states that most of human behavior is based upon imitation. The imitation of desires leads to conflict, and when a buildup of conflict threatens to destroy all involved, they use a scapegoat to return to balance. Girard is a philosopher that Peter Thiel and some others have been much influenced by. Reading your post reminded me about his theory how people start to fight (like the biblical brothers Cain & Abel) once they start to compare themselves to one another and envy emerges.
4. So ask yourself: before seeing those successful friends/relatives, did you feel good about yourself? Do you have friends that if you had any kind of trouble, would stand by your side? Do you have a loving partner/family? Is there something that you like about your home, perhaps a property that made you decide to rent that one over others at the time? Using such questions you may overcome the habit of comparing purely materialistic matters.
5. I own a house, but I live in a crappy rental home which is walking distance to my work instead. If it helps you, I know some very wealthy people that I would never want to change with. Some have become materialistic, others have become afraid for their safety, and others still have started buying ugly things just to show of status and wealth (pitty for them). I also have some relatives in the U.S. that went from "poor" to "millionaire" via a combination of hard work and luck and then back to "poor" due to bad investment advice. Nobody has ever taken $1 to where they go after they die!
2. You did not elaborate in your post what is the reason for your own situation, but having a rental home implies you still have a bank account with a positive balance, even a regular income, so this is is not really "bottom"; and I hope for you that you will never know what "real bottom" means.
3. Rene Girard's main concept is "mimetic theory," which states that most of human behavior is based upon imitation. The imitation of desires leads to conflict, and when a buildup of conflict threatens to destroy all involved, they use a scapegoat to return to balance. Girard is a philosopher that Peter Thiel and some others have been much influenced by. Reading your post reminded me about his theory how people start to fight (like the biblical brothers Cain & Abel) once they start to compare themselves to one another and envy emerges.
4. So ask yourself: before seeing those successful friends/relatives, did you feel good about yourself? Do you have friends that if you had any kind of trouble, would stand by your side? Do you have a loving partner/family? Is there something that you like about your home, perhaps a property that made you decide to rent that one over others at the time? Using such questions you may overcome the habit of comparing purely materialistic matters.
5. I own a house, but I live in a crappy rental home which is walking distance to my work instead. If it helps you, I know some very wealthy people that I would never want to change with. Some have become materialistic, others have become afraid for their safety, and others still have started buying ugly things just to show of status and wealth (pitty for them). I also have some relatives in the U.S. that went from "poor" to "millionaire" via a combination of hard work and luck and then back to "poor" due to bad investment advice. Nobody has ever taken $1 to where they go after they die!
You have every right to be annoyed that you’re stuck at the bottom, because losing sucks. Maybe it helps to remember the good things you have in your life (health/relationships). Also the tides can turn quickly. You might catch a lucky break or two. In 10 years who knows what your life will be like.
I think you need to provide more information to get good advice. Since it wasn't originally provided it may even require some personal reflection.
You ask how to continue being gracious and stop being depressed/envious, but why are you depressed/envious in the first place? It may sound like a stupid question, but it's important to how to approach the problem.
Do you feel depressed because you feel inferior to your friends? Or do you feel depressed because you want to have the money itself? Or is it something else?
If the first reason, that can be a lot "easier" fixed, as it doesn't require you to acquire wealth. This is personal acceptance. It's also something that can possibly be helped just by talking to the people you are envious of. Though I'll leave more advise to the other comments. The comment about your cousin makes me think that you feel inferior to these people and it's not necessarily the wealth amount itself.
For the second reason, I think a lot of people covered it fairly well in this thread, but you should think hard about what exactly you value. How much does what you really value cost in a dollar amount? Sure, you can probably rack up millions in dollars in ideas from travel, to trying expensive things, or having a huge house, but how much of that is really important to you. How much more happiness would a $1,000,000 house bring you verses a $200,000 house (or some cost adjusted similar comparison to your area)? Why are you jealous of someone's $1,000,000 increase in property value? If you received $1,000,000 right now, would that be enough to make you happy or would you still want more?
I won't make the claim that seeing my friend's success doesn't make me feel any envy or additional drive to do more. However, I am currently relatively content with my life, I have a certain reasonable lifestyle in my head that I am aiming for, and I have a goal to get there. Anything more would just be gravy and not something I would feel any significant depression or envy over.
You ask how to continue being gracious and stop being depressed/envious, but why are you depressed/envious in the first place? It may sound like a stupid question, but it's important to how to approach the problem.
Do you feel depressed because you feel inferior to your friends? Or do you feel depressed because you want to have the money itself? Or is it something else?
If the first reason, that can be a lot "easier" fixed, as it doesn't require you to acquire wealth. This is personal acceptance. It's also something that can possibly be helped just by talking to the people you are envious of. Though I'll leave more advise to the other comments. The comment about your cousin makes me think that you feel inferior to these people and it's not necessarily the wealth amount itself.
For the second reason, I think a lot of people covered it fairly well in this thread, but you should think hard about what exactly you value. How much does what you really value cost in a dollar amount? Sure, you can probably rack up millions in dollars in ideas from travel, to trying expensive things, or having a huge house, but how much of that is really important to you. How much more happiness would a $1,000,000 house bring you verses a $200,000 house (or some cost adjusted similar comparison to your area)? Why are you jealous of someone's $1,000,000 increase in property value? If you received $1,000,000 right now, would that be enough to make you happy or would you still want more?
I won't make the claim that seeing my friend's success doesn't make me feel any envy or additional drive to do more. However, I am currently relatively content with my life, I have a certain reasonable lifestyle in my head that I am aiming for, and I have a goal to get there. Anything more would just be gravy and not something I would feel any significant depression or envy over.
I am on the opposite side of this problem. I do my best to hide my wealth (e.g., drive salvage car, cheap clothes, tiny condo, used furnishing etc.) and avoid talking about what I do/did for a living. I do this primarily because of the sentiment you mentioned.
But I wish a younger version of me would have met someone like present day me. I would have concluded, if that seemingly average guy can make it without stepping on anyone's neck and without greed then I would have had more optimism. So it seems wrong to hide my success.
Since I have no advice, may I ask a counter question ? If these are your friends it implies you think they aren't bad people and you are likely similar in many ways. Why are they a source of emotional pain instead of inspiration? Is it because the wealth gap has become so extreme ?
But I wish a younger version of me would have met someone like present day me. I would have concluded, if that seemingly average guy can make it without stepping on anyone's neck and without greed then I would have had more optimism. So it seems wrong to hide my success.
Since I have no advice, may I ask a counter question ? If these are your friends it implies you think they aren't bad people and you are likely similar in many ways. Why are they a source of emotional pain instead of inspiration? Is it because the wealth gap has become so extreme ?
Being rich can't be the end goal, right. There should be something that you want to achieve when you become rich. More often than not, people do not have a clear idea about what they want. They assume(WRONGLY) that once they become rich, they will be happier than they are now.
Learn to value what you have RIGHT HERE and RIGHT NOW, and you can achieve the level of happiness that rich people only dream about. Read about this guy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthieu_Ricard He has nothing, but he is the happiest person in the world. To be clear, I don't suggest anyone become a monk, but we can learn a LOT from them.
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
No, really. I've gotten screwed over and still feel no ill will towards the person who benefitted. I was in a department where if a manager gave someone the top rating they where required to pick someone for a bad rating to "balance it out". Complete bullshit and against company policy. The guy that got distinguished deserved it. I'm glad he got it. On the other side... f** the company, the department head, the manager, etc. But that guy is a good guy. He's probably making 2.5x what I do now since he made senior manager before I made senior (and he's younger). Still don't hate him. There are people who are better than me. I shouldn't resent them. I do hate the company.
No, really. I've gotten screwed over and still feel no ill will towards the person who benefitted. I was in a department where if a manager gave someone the top rating they where required to pick someone for a bad rating to "balance it out". Complete bullshit and against company policy. The guy that got distinguished deserved it. I'm glad he got it. On the other side... f** the company, the department head, the manager, etc. But that guy is a good guy. He's probably making 2.5x what I do now since he made senior manager before I made senior (and he's younger). Still don't hate him. There are people who are better than me. I shouldn't resent them. I do hate the company.
Keep an inner scorecard and try to live by that. Once in a while you'll slip, but just dust it off and get back to focusing on your journey. The more you focus outside you, the less effective and good you'll be on your path.
This is adult life, except now it's about riches and fame and success -- like in school, some are going to be ahead of you and some behind. Sometimes this will be out of pure dumb luck and being in the right place + time (as many of our friends in tech are even if they hesitate to admit that) and other times because they _are_ better than you at things and have worked at it hard and earned it. We must all accept it at some point for what it is.
I'll say it again - define your inner scorecard first.
This is adult life, except now it's about riches and fame and success -- like in school, some are going to be ahead of you and some behind. Sometimes this will be out of pure dumb luck and being in the right place + time (as many of our friends in tech are even if they hesitate to admit that) and other times because they _are_ better than you at things and have worked at it hard and earned it. We must all accept it at some point for what it is.
I'll say it again - define your inner scorecard first.
Do you feel that depression is a problem outside of this? Maybe you should talk to someone about the depression.
Personally, I value my man-cave and my free time. I view "things" and a big house as more shit I have to deal with in my life. Every item I own weighs on me. I don't want any more space than I actively use because that's just more space I have to maintain. Anymore more than the minimum just adds to the weight of the rock I have to push up the hill.
I'm jealous of people who can maintain that stuff. I'm jealous of people who seem to have no problem with household chores, if they have the money for a big house but not enough to hire someone to help them.
Poor person living in a emerging market country.
Personally, I value my man-cave and my free time. I view "things" and a big house as more shit I have to deal with in my life. Every item I own weighs on me. I don't want any more space than I actively use because that's just more space I have to maintain. Anymore more than the minimum just adds to the weight of the rock I have to push up the hill.
I'm jealous of people who can maintain that stuff. I'm jealous of people who seem to have no problem with household chores, if they have the money for a big house but not enough to hire someone to help them.
Poor person living in a emerging market country.
First consider who you call "friend". Are those people willing to help you out if you are down, or are those people just there for the fun time when you are socializing?
In general, people who are truly your friends and value you should be very open to the idea of you coming to them for help and asking how you can get ahead in your own life. A lot of success is just knowing how to play the game and which moves to make, as well as people connections. Most of the rich people that I know are there because someone else essentially gave them the path to take, and they just made the right steps.
If they are not willing to do this, then you honestly will probably be better off finding a new circle of friends.
In general, people who are truly your friends and value you should be very open to the idea of you coming to them for help and asking how you can get ahead in your own life. A lot of success is just knowing how to play the game and which moves to make, as well as people connections. Most of the rich people that I know are there because someone else essentially gave them the path to take, and they just made the right steps.
If they are not willing to do this, then you honestly will probably be better off finding a new circle of friends.
Yes all my friends are good friends, often for more than 30 years. Kind people who care and value our friendship. It just happens that they’re now becoming very wealthy - its made none of them less kind or good people.
The only possible thing they could be said to do “wrong” is not hide their good fortune, nor understand that telling me they just made $1,000,000 makes me feel bad, not welcoming me into their homes.
The only possible thing they could be said to do “wrong” is not hide their good fortune, nor understand that telling me they just made $1,000,000 makes me feel bad, not welcoming me into their homes.
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> As a good friend I should feel happy for them, and I pretend to, but inside it makes me feel terrible.
No, as a good friend you should be honest and communicative about your feelings. What you’re doing right now is building resentment which will culminate in a bad ending to the relationship while your friends stand confused about what happened. If they truly are good friends, they’ll value your feelings and strive to act accordingly. But you need to stop lying to them and have an honest conversation. The worst that can happen is that the friendship ends sooner and you’ve saved yourself years of hiding your pain.
No, as a good friend you should be honest and communicative about your feelings. What you’re doing right now is building resentment which will culminate in a bad ending to the relationship while your friends stand confused about what happened. If they truly are good friends, they’ll value your feelings and strive to act accordingly. But you need to stop lying to them and have an honest conversation. The worst that can happen is that the friendship ends sooner and you’ve saved yourself years of hiding your pain.
Start a business and ask them to invest. Call them if they refuse. Either you become rich like them or they stop answering your calls. I would never loan a friend money, or go into business with them. As far as money goes why do you think you would be happy with more when you aren't with what you have now.
Relatively speaking anyone in the modern western world has it pretty nice in comparison.
Enjoy life, learn to cook and laugh at people going to restaurants. If cooking and eating aren't your things, find what is and enjoy it, money is becoming less and less important to living a rich and enjoyable life.
Relatively speaking anyone in the modern western world has it pretty nice in comparison.
Enjoy life, learn to cook and laugh at people going to restaurants. If cooking and eating aren't your things, find what is and enjoy it, money is becoming less and less important to living a rich and enjoyable life.
You are not alone in this. There are two ways to fix this problem: either (a) move away from them (changing the environment, and this is easy); or (b) seek enlightenment (changing 'your self', only to discover that there is no 'self', and that 'self' is a product of learning). I would say, 99.99999% of people will pick the option (a). In (a), there are any number of varieties, which you hear from various answers here in this thread. Some answers appear to fall in the type (b), but they are transient, as one answer already noted.
Learn from them. Clearly some of your friends are doing things right so try to absorb "knowledge", or even get one to invest in an idea of yours perhaps.
Otherwise, find some new friends and stop torturing yourself.
Otherwise, find some new friends and stop torturing yourself.
Not OP but I would have an issue with that. I do not want to "copy" what is already there, because many things out there are just not good. Someone making a million basically doing nothing is bad, if most people have to work a few centuries to amass that wealth. Inequality is not good, not because everyone is equal, but because you are just using an unfair advantage.
I do not want to copy that. I do not want to support this way of living.
(Also, I do not think I'm whining. I'm in the top income bracket in my country, have some talent and was gifted with some brain at birth and healthiness. But, you know, most of these things are not my doing - I was lucky many times over, and often I see people working 100x harder than me not ending up nearly in the same spot. Is that a good society?)
I do not want to copy that. I do not want to support this way of living.
(Also, I do not think I'm whining. I'm in the top income bracket in my country, have some talent and was gifted with some brain at birth and healthiness. But, you know, most of these things are not my doing - I was lucky many times over, and often I see people working 100x harder than me not ending up nearly in the same spot. Is that a good society?)
Yes this is a good society. If your passion is cutting hair that’s fine, spend your life cutting hair. You might add value to 10,000 other humans before you die of natural causes at a ripe old age. If your passion is developing video games and you make a sleeper hit like Stardew Valley that is purchased and enjoyed by 20,000,000 other humans why shouldn’t you receive “social credit” ie money well in excess of the person that cut 10,000 people’s hair?
It’s not fair and it’s not meant to be fair. It’s meant to allocate limited resources in an efficient manner. Doing something people don’t care about or producing something people don’t care about, get nothing back. Do something people value or produce something they want and get the amount they value it back.
I’m aware that grifters exist and some people make money that shouldn’t make it like violently taking it from others that earned it or tricking people into giving away money they didn’t want to but you don’t cancel a system because it can’t run perfect. If we did that we would have to shut down public schools because a few teachers have sex with children, shut down the military because a few soldiers snapped on a civilian, and the list goes on and on.
It’s not fair and it’s not meant to be fair. It’s meant to allocate limited resources in an efficient manner. Doing something people don’t care about or producing something people don’t care about, get nothing back. Do something people value or produce something they want and get the amount they value it back.
I’m aware that grifters exist and some people make money that shouldn’t make it like violently taking it from others that earned it or tricking people into giving away money they didn’t want to but you don’t cancel a system because it can’t run perfect. If we did that we would have to shut down public schools because a few teachers have sex with children, shut down the military because a few soldiers snapped on a civilian, and the list goes on and on.
We don't know his friends nor how they acquired their wealth, so I'd let OP make a distinction between those friend who they have stuff to learn from, and those who just were born rich and get richer off of that state of having been rich all their lives.
I find wealth mostly about luck more than any other qualifier.
(well, any other qualifier than being born wealthy, that's the greatest predictor of wealth after all.)
(well, any other qualifier than being born wealthy, that's the greatest predictor of wealth after all.)
The smart thing to do is not to whine about the cards you were dealt, but to make the most of them. Most of us here are lucky enough to be born into a non-third world country.
You're absolutely right, but then what?
Hope OP can learn from some of his wealthy friends that acquired wealth, rather than inherited it. And if they all got it from mama and papa, then it is what it is, and OP probably should consider finding other friends if these current ones depress him.
Hope OP can learn from some of his wealthy friends that acquired wealth, rather than inherited it. And if they all got it from mama and papa, then it is what it is, and OP probably should consider finding other friends if these current ones depress him.
Exactly, these folks were either in the right place at the right time, or got "help". Buying a home at all these days is getting harder and harder, I have no doubt OP's rent is higher than their mortgages.
I have a lot of friends who are rich ( I'm not doing bad in general, but it's nothing in comparison).
I don't think it's possible in general for them/me to have friends who are poor, since you can't talk about certain things because of the reason you cite.
The only leg up with rich friends (outside of them being friends!) is that you can use their social network if you have a certain goal.
Just be wise about spending credits.
Ps. Just mentioning that you would like to speak less about financial stuff should be fine. They'll understand if you're both friends ( not acquaintances)
I don't think it's possible in general for them/me to have friends who are poor, since you can't talk about certain things because of the reason you cite.
The only leg up with rich friends (outside of them being friends!) is that you can use their social network if you have a certain goal.
Just be wise about spending credits.
Ps. Just mentioning that you would like to speak less about financial stuff should be fine. They'll understand if you're both friends ( not acquaintances)
I’d also suggest that some therapy session for yourself seems to be in order.
The unsaid things sound like on the lines of “they had good fortune, but why don’t I have it”.
Hard questions, probably not fit to be answered over a text forum:
If they are your friends, why do you feel bad when your friends have a happy event?
Are they really not your friends but there’s some other type of relationship there?
Do they make you unhappy because of their actions or are you unhappy with your own situation to begin with and comparing it to their situation? If it’s the latter, what can you do to improve your situation?
Hope some self reflecting questions help.
The unsaid things sound like on the lines of “they had good fortune, but why don’t I have it”.
Hard questions, probably not fit to be answered over a text forum:
If they are your friends, why do you feel bad when your friends have a happy event?
Are they really not your friends but there’s some other type of relationship there?
Do they make you unhappy because of their actions or are you unhappy with your own situation to begin with and comparing it to their situation? If it’s the latter, what can you do to improve your situation?
Hope some self reflecting questions help.
Just be indifferent.
Being extremely wealthy sounds like a burden to me if you're a half decent person. The greater the excess income, the greater the moral dilemmas. I know I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I had huge disposable income and spent significant money in crap rich people seem to spend it on, like all those luxury brands with stores downtown. Let alone the really rich people that buy private jets and whatnot.
No, not for me. Programmers nowadays have good salaries and that is enough. As the modern philosopher says, more money, more problems.
Being extremely wealthy sounds like a burden to me if you're a half decent person. The greater the excess income, the greater the moral dilemmas. I know I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I had huge disposable income and spent significant money in crap rich people seem to spend it on, like all those luxury brands with stores downtown. Let alone the really rich people that buy private jets and whatnot.
No, not for me. Programmers nowadays have good salaries and that is enough. As the modern philosopher says, more money, more problems.
I get it. It totally sucks. I live in a mobile home, work a job that doesn't pay nearly enough, and used to work jobs that did. I have a family member who married a doctor and they moved into a house that has a second house attached (a mother-in-law suite as it's called). But I have friends who live in small houses, crappy rentals, mobile homes, and we all visit each other, not our houses. What really matters is what you consider is success, a large bank account or a large group of friends.
They don't really trade off, it takes money to make friends.
What do you want to be when you grow up?
For me, I want to be happy. Money is part of having a stable life, beyond that is meaningless.
Depression is something I've coped with as long as I remember.
> As a good friend I should feel happy for them, and I pretend to, but inside it makes me feel terrible.
Yep, it's unfair. Eeking out my slice of happiness in spite of all the slings and arrows seems almost like an act of rebellion in today's world.
"The path of the righteous is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyrannies of evil."
For me, I want to be happy. Money is part of having a stable life, beyond that is meaningless.
Depression is something I've coped with as long as I remember.
> As a good friend I should feel happy for them, and I pretend to, but inside it makes me feel terrible.
Yep, it's unfair. Eeking out my slice of happiness in spite of all the slings and arrows seems almost like an act of rebellion in today's world.
"The path of the righteous is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyrannies of evil."
I love this question and the vulnerability/self awareness required in asking it. Props to you for bringing up something that is likely hard to talk about.
1. Have you tried talking to your friends about how it makes you feel? I get that that's vulnerable and might even feel embarrassing to bring up, but if they're really good friends of yours, they'll care about your feelings AND will be thankful for your honesty. Even if it feels awkward in the moment of or they're uncertain how to behave shortly thereafter.
It can be as simple as "I'm excited for your success and don't want to make you feel bad about it, but sometimes the details of how much STUFF you have really bring home insecurities about how much I don't have. It's enough to know you sold your house because the value went up without being reminded just quite how much it appreciated."
Letting them know how it can feel and asking them to be more aware doesn't mean you're a bad friend. It gives them the opportunity to gain some awareness of how their words impact others. As folks get wealthier it becomes easy to lose that awareness, and you bringing it up gives them the chance to reset some of their behaviors that are likely impacting other relationships as well.
To put it in a different context, if things are going really well in my marriage I probably won't dwell too much on that when talking with a friend who recently got divorced. I know they want good things for me, but I also understand that it could bring up painful comparisons or memories for them. Instead I can mention that things are going well without going into detail.
2. You mention that you "feel smashed with depression". Have you considered speaking to a therapist about your feeling or just mental health overall? I realize this is difficult when money is tight, but I also know that a fair number of therapists accept a sliding payment scale based on income.
Feeling bummed out because of comparison is pretty common and normal, especially in a culture like ours, so it may not be anything more than that. But if comparison is causing you a lot of negative feelings, it may be that deep down you've conflated happiness with financial success or security. Therapists are good at helping to identify the faulty associations we don't even realize we're making, and then seeing how to unwind those associations in ways that aren't obvious to ourselves or friends/partners we talk to.
In answer to your question about whether I have money or don't -- I work as a software engineer in the US so I'm certainly fortunate, but I'm in a big city so I have no plans to add a pool to my rented studio apartment any time soon.
1. Have you tried talking to your friends about how it makes you feel? I get that that's vulnerable and might even feel embarrassing to bring up, but if they're really good friends of yours, they'll care about your feelings AND will be thankful for your honesty. Even if it feels awkward in the moment of or they're uncertain how to behave shortly thereafter.
It can be as simple as "I'm excited for your success and don't want to make you feel bad about it, but sometimes the details of how much STUFF you have really bring home insecurities about how much I don't have. It's enough to know you sold your house because the value went up without being reminded just quite how much it appreciated."
Letting them know how it can feel and asking them to be more aware doesn't mean you're a bad friend. It gives them the opportunity to gain some awareness of how their words impact others. As folks get wealthier it becomes easy to lose that awareness, and you bringing it up gives them the chance to reset some of their behaviors that are likely impacting other relationships as well.
To put it in a different context, if things are going really well in my marriage I probably won't dwell too much on that when talking with a friend who recently got divorced. I know they want good things for me, but I also understand that it could bring up painful comparisons or memories for them. Instead I can mention that things are going well without going into detail.
2. You mention that you "feel smashed with depression". Have you considered speaking to a therapist about your feeling or just mental health overall? I realize this is difficult when money is tight, but I also know that a fair number of therapists accept a sliding payment scale based on income.
Feeling bummed out because of comparison is pretty common and normal, especially in a culture like ours, so it may not be anything more than that. But if comparison is causing you a lot of negative feelings, it may be that deep down you've conflated happiness with financial success or security. Therapists are good at helping to identify the faulty associations we don't even realize we're making, and then seeing how to unwind those associations in ways that aren't obvious to ourselves or friends/partners we talk to.
In answer to your question about whether I have money or don't -- I work as a software engineer in the US so I'm certainly fortunate, but I'm in a big city so I have no plans to add a pool to my rented studio apartment any time soon.
Your friends will die empty handed. You will die empty handed. I believe our purpose in life is too work hard and not be overly concerned with the success of others. We should hope for the good health to enjoy what we have. Family, friends and possessions.
You are angry as you are double-minded. You want to be happy for your friends but you can't be as you are not wealthy. I would suggest you be single minded and adopt a more robust philosophy of life.
You are angry as you are double-minded. You want to be happy for your friends but you can't be as you are not wealthy. I would suggest you be single minded and adopt a more robust philosophy of life.
> And I’m at the bottom with nothing.
No you're not. It's this exaggeration that's getting you into a tizzy. Stop it.
Instead think about all the things that money can't buy. Think about character and resilience.
> I encourage you add the context of whether you are one of those who have money or not.
My advice is timeless and was handed down from the dusty tomes of the east AND the west. Who I am and what I have doesn't matter. Listen to our ancestors.
No you're not. It's this exaggeration that's getting you into a tizzy. Stop it.
Instead think about all the things that money can't buy. Think about character and resilience.
> I encourage you add the context of whether you are one of those who have money or not.
My advice is timeless and was handed down from the dusty tomes of the east AND the west. Who I am and what I have doesn't matter. Listen to our ancestors.
Recommend this book which documents the lives of the wealthy:-
https://www.amazon.com/Jackpot-Super-Rich-Really-Live_and-We...
In alot of ways it can actually be quite alienating.
There is also
/r/fatfire
on Reddit where Ive seen people discuss their experiences with private jet ownership for example
https://www.amazon.com/Jackpot-Super-Rich-Really-Live_and-We...
In alot of ways it can actually be quite alienating.
There is also
/r/fatfire
on Reddit where Ive seen people discuss their experiences with private jet ownership for example
You don’t want to be the guy with the pool and the boat. You want to be friends with the guy with the pool and the boat.
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Be happy if you can afford basic shelter and sustenance. Everything else is a bonus. Does anyone really need nice cars and mansions? I don't think we necessarily need to hate on the rich but we should resent those that have gotten rich through ill-gotten means and don't give back (in a meaningful way).
[deleted]
One thing I hate is when people with money pay for me. When I lived in NZ I met a guy at work who used to wear a sponge bob square pants tshirt that had holes in it and was like 10 years old. And some old shorts. If you didn’t know any better you would think he got pulled in off the street.
Yet he’s one of the nicest people I’ve met and never flaunted the fact he was a multimillionaire.
When we went to lunch at wendys he would pay, the next day I would pay. (This opposed to others who are always “nah I got this” all the time who make me feel like I can’t afford anything)
I don’t care if people have money. As long as they are nice people. But I’ve met people who flaunt their money and I simply just don’t talk to them. Got more important things to worry about than listen to someone gloat.
(I don’t have money. Just pay slip to pay slip saving a little bit each month and hoping I’ll be able to afford a house oneday)
Yet he’s one of the nicest people I’ve met and never flaunted the fact he was a multimillionaire.
When we went to lunch at wendys he would pay, the next day I would pay. (This opposed to others who are always “nah I got this” all the time who make me feel like I can’t afford anything)
I don’t care if people have money. As long as they are nice people. But I’ve met people who flaunt their money and I simply just don’t talk to them. Got more important things to worry about than listen to someone gloat.
(I don’t have money. Just pay slip to pay slip saving a little bit each month and hoping I’ll be able to afford a house oneday)
Why don't you ask or learn their habits? - The habits of the rich.
Is there a way to email you? I'll send a few articles which might be helpful for you. (They are not worthy of HN discussion, so not commenting here.)
Is there a way to email you? I'll send a few articles which might be helpful for you. (They are not worthy of HN discussion, so not commenting here.)
selling a house for more then you bought it isnt even a legitimate accolade. Its nice sure, but to be jealous of housing markets working out for them is beyond silly.
maybe focus on growing yourself in other ways. Financial success is great but it isnt the only ladder worth climbing. Take up a new skill that makes you better like a sport, and actually try to improve at it. youll find that the new peers you make while practicing this sport are oblivious to the financial jealousy you describe, why? Probably because they have more going on then just monetary success.
maybe focus on growing yourself in other ways. Financial success is great but it isnt the only ladder worth climbing. Take up a new skill that makes you better like a sport, and actually try to improve at it. youll find that the new peers you make while practicing this sport are oblivious to the financial jealousy you describe, why? Probably because they have more going on then just monetary success.
What do they other than you? Ask your self, how can you get your own as up to get enough money to be happy? By the way, money doesn't exactly equals happiness, it just makes it easier.
What can you do better than your friends? Surely something?
I have no money, but I cook better than almost every restaurant in town.
Develop your arts, money might follow if you want it that much.
Develop your arts, money might follow if you want it that much.
I have the same problem - looking for external validation of my value of my reasons for happiness rather than rely on internal.
This is a serious issue, im working thus out with therapist.
This is a serious issue, im working thus out with therapist.
Just realize that you're living your best life mate. Life is full of vanity but what's important is to enjoy the feeling. That's all there is to it.
Don’t fight the feelings, utilize them as a fuel to move forward.
The existence of the feeling indicates that this matters to you - then what stops you from pursuing same goals?
The existence of the feeling indicates that this matters to you - then what stops you from pursuing same goals?
There are two ways to be rich: to have the things you want and to want the things you have. See if you can successfully achieve one of these two options.
Don't be jealous, instead try to ask them what are the things that they have done in which helped them propelled their status in life.
Go and look at those who have less than you.
Also, please read Thomas Piketty on wealth inequality (and why it is much more relevant than income inequality).
For me, as long as my family is happy and healthy and we're on track to have an OK retirement and no significant negatives, that's good enough. Am I depressed that I didn't go work for <startup XYZ> that my friends started and exited with three commas? (Not some hypothetical/wishful "what if?" but rather a specific conversation in a conference room of "hey, come join us".) I can sometimes wish I'd joined them, but I didn't do the work, didn't take the risk, and I'm happy enough with where I'm at (and genuinely happy for them).
If your rental house has what you need, keeps you warm and dry and lets you cook your meals in it, why be ashamed of it? Unless you're Elon Musk (or Vladmir Putin or Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum), someone will always have more money than you.
If you decide the game is about being the richest person, 99.999999987% of people will lose that game. If you decide that the game is about enjoying life, friendships, and similar, over 90% of the people can win that game.
Context: I'm in the "millionaire next door" category, probably like plenty of middle-aged tech folks. Our "nice" car is a 2015 LEAF. The other one is a 2005 Honda CR-V. Somewhere in the top 5% household income, low single-digit millionaire, but exposed to a lot of people who have made tres-commas money, have their own jets, or whatever.
If your rental house has what you need, keeps you warm and dry and lets you cook your meals in it, why be ashamed of it? Unless you're Elon Musk (or Vladmir Putin or Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum), someone will always have more money than you.
If you decide the game is about being the richest person, 99.999999987% of people will lose that game. If you decide that the game is about enjoying life, friendships, and similar, over 90% of the people can win that game.
Context: I'm in the "millionaire next door" category, probably like plenty of middle-aged tech folks. Our "nice" car is a 2015 LEAF. The other one is a 2005 Honda CR-V. Somewhere in the top 5% household income, low single-digit millionaire, but exposed to a lot of people who have made tres-commas money, have their own jets, or whatever.
How would you feel if today, at your age, you had $0 and no house?
Primarily: I had better get cracking.
Secondarily: Incredibly grateful that my career was in tech and tech was in demand. Intensely reflective about how those previous two points have intersected to leave me with a net worth of $0 after 30 years of work and what I’d need to change to have a better outcome in the next decade.
Secondarily: Incredibly grateful that my career was in tech and tech was in demand. Intensely reflective about how those previous two points have intersected to leave me with a net worth of $0 after 30 years of work and what I’d need to change to have a better outcome in the next decade.
That’s where I’m at.
And why is that? I would never have allowed it to happen… especially with if I had many rich friends to reach for counsel!
Happiness doesn't come from making a ton of money. It comes from liberation. Who gives a flying poop about how much money some schmuck is making to pay for his overpriced junk. Rich people are usually owned by their money and status. They come raining down on the streets from their penthouses every time the market dips. They die early from drugs. They corrupt themselves with evil vices on private islands which degrade human life. They die in prisons waiting trial for crimes that would make a normal human being puke.
You couldn't pay me to take up a life like most millionaires. Beyond $100k I think is just too much. Living in big empty houses with few to no friends. What point is there in making money if you can't be free? Look into FIRE, look into frugal living, study philosophy, meditate, take a CBT course. Money doesn't fix the problems, it just makes them much worse.
You couldn't pay me to take up a life like most millionaires. Beyond $100k I think is just too much. Living in big empty houses with few to no friends. What point is there in making money if you can't be free? Look into FIRE, look into frugal living, study philosophy, meditate, take a CBT course. Money doesn't fix the problems, it just makes them much worse.
Grass is always greener on the other side.
i offer you the philosophy of stoicism, look into the life of marcus aurelius
In a word, therapy.
They have no money. How are they going to afford $100/hr to talk to a professional? More likely than not, their friends and family are their "therapy".
Ask if they would be willing to finance a project of yours.
> As a good friend I should feel happy for them, and I pretend to, but inside it makes me feel terrible.
Sounds like a much more interesting problem. Try harder to become who you want to be. Figure out why you feel terrible. If it is simply because you are a greedy capitalist who looks up to wealth and down on poor people you might feel good if you make an effort to help someone.
> As a good friend I should feel happy for them, and I pretend to, but inside it makes me feel terrible.
Sounds like a much more interesting problem. Try harder to become who you want to be. Figure out why you feel terrible. If it is simply because you are a greedy capitalist who looks up to wealth and down on poor people you might feel good if you make an effort to help someone.
It's more about the kinds of conversations my friends and I are having. I have a rich friend and I actually helped them become more rich. And I felt damn good about it.
I think that might be part of the difference. OP sounds like they are talking about acquaintances. You're always happy for a friend's success. They don't take away from you. Helping them does feel good.
I recommend reading the Tao Te Ching for some ancient advice on getting out of the rat race mindset:
https://github.com/lovingawareness/tao-te-ching/blob/master/...
Excess wealth just means more things to lose.
https://github.com/lovingawareness/tao-te-ching/blob/master/...
Excess wealth just means more things to lose.
All I hear from you is whining, from the first sentence to the very last.
Either suck it up and utilize your anger and envy as impetus for changing your situation into one that you're satisfied with, detach your own self worth from that of your friends or continue to be a baby and keep crying in your slum.
my mother came from a family of cotton pickers, I got a leg up and my children will be getting an even bigger leg up.
This might seem unnecessarily harsh but crying will get you nowhere.
Either suck it up and utilize your anger and envy as impetus for changing your situation into one that you're satisfied with, detach your own self worth from that of your friends or continue to be a baby and keep crying in your slum.
my mother came from a family of cotton pickers, I got a leg up and my children will be getting an even bigger leg up.
This might seem unnecessarily harsh but crying will get you nowhere.
Dammit it sucks I can't just bitch and whine my way into FU money right? But then we get up, pull our pants on and get to work.
I have envy problems with what I perceive to be lucky rich folks. But that is all just in my own head. If I'm thinking about that then I'm not focused on my own path and will wallow in my own mess.
I have envy problems with what I perceive to be lucky rich folks. But that is all just in my own head. If I'm thinking about that then I'm not focused on my own path and will wallow in my own mess.
Wealth inequality being the worst it’s been in recent history.
…Because people like you are whining and not working hard enough?
No- we don’t live in a meritocracy. Productivity is not rewarded proportionately.
…Because people like you are whining and not working hard enough?
No- we don’t live in a meritocracy. Productivity is not rewarded proportionately.
You aren't wrong either. I like to believe that hard work leads to success but I'm just lying to motivate myself.
Science fiction: there was a book, I forget the name now it was a pulp novel. Aliens breed humans for luck resulting in a fantastic adventure for the lucky girl.
Science fiction: there was a book, I forget the name now it was a pulp novel. Aliens breed humans for luck resulting in a fantastic adventure for the lucky girl.
If you’re working for someone else, the term for what you’re participating in is “hope labor”. If you’re okay with that structure, then I hope you’re okay with always being a proletariat.
If you’re talking about working for yourself, you can be sure hard work is involved, but it is unlikely to economically enrich you.
But, in the rare case you become rich from hard work; I’m glad the fiction for many became your reality!
If you’re talking about working for yourself, you can be sure hard work is involved, but it is unlikely to economically enrich you.
But, in the rare case you become rich from hard work; I’m glad the fiction for many became your reality!
>If you’re okay with that structure, then I hope you’re okay with always being a proletariat.
What does this mean and why would anyone care?
What does this mean and why would anyone care?
It means always working, regardless of circumstance.
This might not seem like a problem while you're young and healthy, but as you age and enter the cohort of those who would like to retire, you start to be on the receiving end of discrimination, health issues and less work opportunities.
Hence why in many countries, there are mandatory retirement investments (in Australia we call it Superannuation). This catapults many workers (and would-be retirees) into the investor class. But, this is not a guarantee for all, and requires forethought.
This might not seem like a problem while you're young and healthy, but as you age and enter the cohort of those who would like to retire, you start to be on the receiving end of discrimination, health issues and less work opportunities.
Hence why in many countries, there are mandatory retirement investments (in Australia we call it Superannuation). This catapults many workers (and would-be retirees) into the investor class. But, this is not a guarantee for all, and requires forethought.
This doesn’t check out. Most people working for someone else will retire with funds to cover their living. A large number of people can retire decades early because of how much money they earn. In the US, even if you’re not saving after tax money for retirement, you would have social security (compulsory), 401(k)s, and pensions all of which are investment vehicles under the hood.
Most people in the US have a 401(k) which makes them owners.
Most people in the US have a 401(k) which makes them owners.
I think we agree in parts - my point being in the Gig economy? Contracting? You are not guaranteed retirement. If you work hard to become the best Uber driver, you are not simultaneously campaigning to be rewarded a 401(k). It is important to know your class, and where you need to be in the future in order to have a retirement.
I believe you're thinking of Ringworld by Larry Niven.
What a terrible and unhelpful comment.
I try to be gracious and happy for their good fortune.
However it makes me depressed and angry and envious.
One friend told me a few days ago his house went up in value $1,000,000 in one year, at which point he sold it.
I visited my cousin who is a fabulous person and has a gorgeous house freshly renovated and extended and a new pool put it.
All around me my peers are becoming very wealthy.
And I’m at the bottom with nothing.
I try to be happy for them and gracious and to listen and enthuse whilst they tell me of their good fortune or show me around their stunning houses. And afterwards I feel smashed with depression as I go back to my shit rental house that I’m ashamed of.
Good people, great friends, and seeing them brings me down.
Rich people aren’t aware that their tales of success make people like me feel bad. They shouldn’t have to be aware of that or hold themselves back. As a good friend I should feel happy for them, and I pretend to, but inside it makes me feel terrible.
If you’re commenting on this thread and offering advice, I encourage you add the context of whether you are one of those who have money or not.