HyperRogue: A puzzle roguelike in a non-Euclidean world(roguetemple.com)
roguetemple.com
HyperRogue: A puzzle roguelike in a non-Euclidean world
http://roguetemple.com/z/hyper/
37 comments
Ha! the title of that video "Spherical Geometry Is Stranger Than Hyperbolic" is very insightful. Due to the convergence of the light rays on positive curvature, objects appear larger the further they are! Hyperbolic geometry is like euclidean with a spacious horizon. But spherical geometry is a wickedly different thing. All your "sky" is covered by the single point at your antipodes (when it's not occluded by a tiny object very far away from you).
I'm at a standing desk on a balance board and I had to get off. I got disorientated and nauseous just watching that. I can't even imagine spherical geometry with VR.
Well, if we see an object with our eye, we know that it is on a particular line. When the brain sees the object with two eyes, it knows that the object is where the two lines cross.
As long as they cross in front of the eyes. If they cross in the back, the math works, but the brain is not trained for it.
In spherical geometry that happens -- you see things which are just behind you, but the brain has problems interpreting that.
Simulating binocular vision is not the only approach though -- you can use a perspective where the objects appear at the correct distances, some non-Euclidean VR games do this.
As long as they cross in front of the eyes. If they cross in the back, the math works, but the brain is not trained for it.
In spherical geometry that happens -- you see things which are just behind you, but the brain has problems interpreting that.
Simulating binocular vision is not the only approach though -- you can use a perspective where the objects appear at the correct distances, some non-Euclidean VR games do this.
As much as I enjoy excursions in hyperbolic spaces, I also find it causes awful motion sickness. Even in 2D, it can be a bit much.
How much have you played? It seems you need to get used to it -- for me it caused motion sickness initially, but after getting used to it (which did not require much playing in my case), not anymore (except with experimenting with new graphical settings). I still get motion sickness in Euclidean 3D games. Changing the options could help too.
I expect that's true. I got very strong motion sickness with VR, but after dedicating a few hours to it I can do low-motion games fine.
Mostly I've managed to make myself slightly ill with my own experiments in rendering motion in hyperbolic space, so I haven't spent too long in HyperRogue.
Mostly I've managed to make myself slightly ill with my own experiments in rendering motion in hyperbolic space, so I haven't spent too long in HyperRogue.
Also see here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMgVKCsG_7z1jpdHDR_TwUw for development of HyperBlock, a hyperbolic Minecraft.
I was just about to link to code parade! He's done suck amazing things with real time rendering and perspective, it's great
HyperRogue has 3D modes with real-time rendering and perspective too. (And playable, not just videos ;)
Perceptually, it's interesting that in the "2D" hyperbolic plane, the game map tests the limits of the human mind. But in "3D" this becomes virtually impossible. Even with practice it becomes intractable for the typical player to imagine "spaces expanding within spaces" at 60fps!
The effect looks like lensing
The point about rendering hyperbolic 2D using the Poincare embedding is that you see more of the game world, but what is "closest" is larger, somewhat like POV 3D but unlike traditional roguelikes.
John Lamping invented a file browser based on hyperbolic 2D [1,2].
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbolic_tree
[2]: http://www.cs.kent.edu/~jmaletic/cs63903/papers/Lamping96.pd...
John Lamping invented a file browser based on hyperbolic 2D [1,2].
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbolic_tree
[2]: http://www.cs.kent.edu/~jmaletic/cs63903/papers/Lamping96.pd...
Very interesting! Here is the video of same file browser.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bhq08BQLDs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bhq08BQLDs
We have also experimented with using the HyperRogue engine for similar visualizations of hierarchical data, see: http://www.roguetemple.com/z/hyper/rogueviz.php
See also sokyuban, a non-euclidean sokoban game - https://sokyokuban.com/
If curious see also
2015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9744353
2018 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17432974
2015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9744353
2018 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17432974
At the first encounter I find this game very aesthetically pleasing and groundbreaking in an original dimension. I see it's been around for a while but I missed it before. I personally am a bit saturated with the mainstream 3d game mechanics, somehow 2d games captivate me more.
Cool! That inspired me to try to generate such a rendering myself, but googling it is not as easy as it seems. Sure, there is an article on Wikipedia about "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order-6_hexagonal_tiling", about a "regular tiling of the hyperbolic plane" with hexagons, but the hexagons themselves in that tiling aren't regular...
EDIT: that might be because they're not hexagons, they're heptagons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptagonal_tiling). Duh...
EDIT: that might be because they're not hexagons, they're heptagons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptagonal_tiling). Duh...
I'm curious, how would you store data about the maps of these worlds? Is there a certain format that's needed? I imagine it couldn't just be a 2D array, or if so, it would need to be a lot larger than a normal map and you wouldn't check all cells.
The data storage structure are explained here: http://roguetemple.com/z/hyper/dev.php
And algorithms for the procedural generation are indeed quite challenging (as you noticed, you cannot just work on all 10^7000 cells).
And algorithms for the procedural generation are indeed quite challenging (as you noticed, you cannot just work on all 10^7000 cells).
Awesome, thanks for the link.
Another alt-space game, roguelike on the surface of a klein bottle, http://songseed.org/exhibit/20120318.srd/kleinrl.0.4.zip
For some reason this reminds me of All Mimsy Were the Borogroves.
Some kids find a set of four dimensional educational toys, and figure them out.
Some kids find a set of four dimensional educational toys, and figure them out.
This reminds me of DROD (1996)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_Rooms_of_Death
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_Rooms_of_Death
I'm a roguelike enthusiast who's attempted to play HyperRogue many times but always get stuck on not understanding the geometry at all. Any tips from those who have?
Bought and played. It’s ok. Monument Valley still remains my most favorite.
Where did you purchase HyperRouge from? I thought it was open source and available.
There is a free software version of HyperRogue, and also a paid version e.g. from Steam. The Steam version has some minor features that the free version does not have (leaderboards, Strange Challenge, etc.).
It's like Rogue played inside a Mandelbrot fractal.
Is there a tunneller version?
What do you mean by a tunneller version?
https://www.playdosgames.com/online/tunneler/
It's a cult classic, perhaps it would be interesting on hyperbolic plane.
It's a cult classic, perhaps it would be interesting on hyperbolic plane.
It appears that tunneler is a pixel-based game (not sure whether there is a commonly used term for that, but I mean games like Lemmings or Scorched Earth or Liero or Noita which are grid-based at pixel precision).
It is not clear how to make a hyperbolic pixel-based game because there is no fixed relation between the map and the screen pixels. (This is also why HyperRogue cannot use pixel art.)
Of course, one could still just pick a dense grid and use it instead of the actual pixels.
There is nothing very close to Tunneler, but there is an Asteroids clone mini-game inside HyperRogue, and a "shmup mode" which is real-time and can be played in local coop.
It is not clear how to make a hyperbolic pixel-based game because there is no fixed relation between the map and the screen pixels. (This is also why HyperRogue cannot use pixel art.)
Of course, one could still just pick a dense grid and use it instead of the actual pixels.
There is nothing very close to Tunneler, but there is an Asteroids clone mini-game inside HyperRogue, and a "shmup mode" which is real-time and can be played in local coop.
[1] https://youtu.be/yY9GAyJtuJ0