Can sleep deprivation cure depression?(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Can sleep deprivation cure depression?
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/10/opinion/sunday/can-sleep-deprivation-cure-depression.html
222 comments
With your sleep schedule constantly shifting, how do you manage day-to-day activities? You must have a job with very flexible hours for that to work. But even things like going to the store and seeing a doctor must be slightly more difficult if you might be asleep from morning to afternoon.
With 9 months of data, how consistently do you shift your schedule by 1 hour each day? I'd imagine there are fluctuations, but I guess if it's reliable you could schedule things on certain days.
With 9 months of data, how consistently do you shift your schedule by 1 hour each day? I'd imagine there are fluctuations, but I guess if it's reliable you could schedule things on certain days.
I keep my own work hours and schedule my work around deadlines. If I have a deliverable Friday afternoon and I'm going to sleep in the morning, I have to get it done Thursday night. The beauty of this for me is that I know what my productive hours will be and I can work during them, rather than shoving work into a specific time frame regardless of my circumstances.
Things like going to the store I can do any time of day, pretty much. With things like doctor visits or work meetings that happen in the daytime, I'll stay up late or get up early as necessary. I can usually get back "on schedule" very easily just by going to sleep when I feel tired and getting up when I'm rested. I'll usually go to bed and get up close to when I usually do because of where my circadian rhythm is, and even if my schedule moves a few hours one way or another, that doesn't have a detrimental effect because I'm so used to the lifestyle.
It's pretty consistent. I used to track it on a sleep app but I've gotten out of the habit (it's not been necessary). I don't think there's been a month recently where I haven't completed a full rotation. Back when I was tracking data, I have graphs of my sleep schedule making a diagonal pattern across the month. It's very reliable.
Things like going to the store I can do any time of day, pretty much. With things like doctor visits or work meetings that happen in the daytime, I'll stay up late or get up early as necessary. I can usually get back "on schedule" very easily just by going to sleep when I feel tired and getting up when I'm rested. I'll usually go to bed and get up close to when I usually do because of where my circadian rhythm is, and even if my schedule moves a few hours one way or another, that doesn't have a detrimental effect because I'm so used to the lifestyle.
It's pretty consistent. I used to track it on a sleep app but I've gotten out of the habit (it's not been necessary). I don't think there's been a month recently where I haven't completed a full rotation. Back when I was tracking data, I have graphs of my sleep schedule making a diagonal pattern across the month. It's very reliable.
How does it work socially?
The ideal would be to work someplace like this http://www.space.com/17815-mars-rover-jet-lag.html with a 24 hours + 40 minute "day"
If you can partner up and take some time, BUD/S...it will change your outlook on life. This isn't something to be done alone as most of us have trained an 8-hour sleep routine. Somewhere around 72 hours of 'non-sleep' you'll stop thinking and be grounded. However, at around 48 hours you'll likely experience a psychotic episode which could lead anywhere...hence, the buddy.
Use this to workout: https://youtu.be/_frdLp5LHng
Have a nice Day!
Think: https://youtu.be/-rd24yXC8Jk
Use this to workout: https://youtu.be/_frdLp5LHng
Have a nice Day!
Think: https://youtu.be/-rd24yXC8Jk
How much natural sunlight are you getting vs. artificial lighting? Maybe you have some problem with the mechanism that resets us to the solar day or maybe you are disrupting it in some way. Like you suggest it's possible that the light from your monitor is also messing with your body.
My sleep pattern when I'm in nature with no artificial light is very different than at home with lights + screens. In nature I wake up much earlier and my sleep patterns tend to align themselves with the solar day. At home it's a lot less aligned with the solar day and more impacted by having lights and screens on.
For me getting proper sleep is also very important. I don't get it how some people seem to be able to function well with a lot less sleep and alarm clocks ;) I think they are just in some sort of perpetual sleep deprivation mode.
Do you get jetlag?
My sleep pattern when I'm in nature with no artificial light is very different than at home with lights + screens. In nature I wake up much earlier and my sleep patterns tend to align themselves with the solar day. At home it's a lot less aligned with the solar day and more impacted by having lights and screens on.
For me getting proper sleep is also very important. I don't get it how some people seem to be able to function well with a lot less sleep and alarm clocks ;) I think they are just in some sort of perpetual sleep deprivation mode.
Do you get jetlag?
I do not get much natural sunlight. I sleep beside a window with no curtains, and which faces the rising sun. Despite this, I'm able to go to sleep when I should pretty consistently.
I've tried to keep myself on a regular daytime schedule using sunlight but I found myself unable to go to bed and get up at regular times. Even with less natural sunlight, I'm consistently more rested and alert now than when I got sunlight. Even taking melatonin at night and setting numerous alarms, it was a constant, taxing struggle.
When I'm up nights I'll leave the lights on in my room to help regulate and to help me feel awake. I'm also very very consistent with my caffeine intake (same amount every day, at the same time relative to when I wake and sleep).
Regarding jetlag, I haven't traveled recently or had such drastic changes of schedule that would interrupt my circadian rhythm enough to be of any detriment.
I've tried to keep myself on a regular daytime schedule using sunlight but I found myself unable to go to bed and get up at regular times. Even with less natural sunlight, I'm consistently more rested and alert now than when I got sunlight. Even taking melatonin at night and setting numerous alarms, it was a constant, taxing struggle.
When I'm up nights I'll leave the lights on in my room to help regulate and to help me feel awake. I'm also very very consistent with my caffeine intake (same amount every day, at the same time relative to when I wake and sleep).
Regarding jetlag, I haven't traveled recently or had such drastic changes of schedule that would interrupt my circadian rhythm enough to be of any detriment.
Hah that's interesting almost the exact same thing happens to me if I allow myself desired rather than scheduled sleep.
In a way though I wish my natural cycle was closer to the typical 9-5. I found it easy to be isolated or depressed on the days when your waking life is so different than everyone elses.
In a way though I wish my natural cycle was closer to the typical 9-5. I found it easy to be isolated or depressed on the days when your waking life is so different than everyone elses.
I've found it somewhat easy to feel very isolated in the same way. A week of freelance work at hours when pretty much the whole of the country is asleep takes some getting used to.
I recommend finding some Discord or IRC servers with like-minded individuals that may operate in other timezones, if that interests you. It's always the middle of the day somewhere, and I find that just having that communication available—even if I'm not looking at it or using it—really helps me feel connected and not so isolated.
I recommend finding some Discord or IRC servers with like-minded individuals that may operate in other timezones, if that interests you. It's always the middle of the day somewhere, and I find that just having that communication available—even if I'm not looking at it or using it—really helps me feel connected and not so isolated.
Discord / IRC / Twitch / cytube is pretty much exactly how I deal with it.
Funny there is a whole world of us out there.
Funny there is a whole world of us out there.
All of these comments have been extremely interesting to me. Before this, I'd never spoken to anybody that shared my sleep pattern, so I had no way to gauge how uncommon it is.
Registered an account just to say "Me too". I've been on this rotating cycle for several years at this point (so can't really tell how it might affect depression). It's remarkable how similar the timing is too... I go around the clock about every month or so. Though I don't think I could stay on normal time even if I wanted to. Eventually I'll have a night of insomnia, where I overshoot my usual pattern by probably 6 hours. I've seen it mentioned before as the sleep disorder "non-24". It's normal to me, but it does feel like a disability by times.
I think you folks are actually no anomaly but the norm. Most people just don't act on it. The article even mentioned that most people's circadian rhythm is longer than 24 hours and that we force ourselves into a 24 hour rhythm. I think it's quite obvious. It's pretty easy to go to bed later and it's pretty easy to sleep too long for most people I know. (maybe it's just more noticeable though because people aren't late to work because they woke up too early or late too early because they need to sleep super early). I also find traveling west almost pleasant because you just have to stay up longer and wake up unusually early which is very interesting when traveling, especially to Asia. Traveling ready is a total nightmare without medication. You have to go to sleep before tired and wake up before you've sleep enough or you sleep through the whole morning.
Travelling west is fantastic. I found that with a bit of discipline I can just skip jetlag and be a morning person for the duration of the journey. On the way back - no jetlag either and back to the usual late pattern.
I wonder if that means we are not native to this planet but rather one with a longer day.
Thanks so much for registering and sharing! It's cool to see that somebody has made this work for a long period of time.
I also want to look into this and see what other people's experiences have been like.
I also want to look into this and see what other people's experiences have been like.
Well I don't know if I can say I'm making it work. I do end up in some crazy situations, like during winter not seeing daylight for a few weeks. I still think of it as being in "Well, that can't be good" territory. Then there's the horror of thinking - "If my work situation falls apart and I have to get a 9-to-5, how will I even deal with that?".
I sometimes wonder if it'd just sort itself out if I quit caffeine completely, and stopped staring at a screen all day... but that's not exactly compatible with my career.
I sometimes wonder if it'd just sort itself out if I quit caffeine completely, and stopped staring at a screen all day... but that's not exactly compatible with my career.
My stomach protested after being feed copious amounts of coffee during the late 90's. Since then I only drink coffee involuntarily (like if someone already made me a cup before asking so I sip just out of courtesy).
Today I stick to drinking mostly red teas. Which are not actually tea I hear. Anyways, my point is did you try to get off caffeine altogether at some point?
You know, I never tried, because I've never considered it a problem. I have 3 cups a day. I also know what it feels like to be too wired on coffee to sleep, so I feel like I know when that's not happening. But I've been drinking coffee for so many years uninterrupted... I do have to wonder if I even know what "normal" is.
True "tea" comes from the camellia sinensis plant. Tisanes, which we in the US like to call "herbal teas" are any number of plant infusions not made from camellia sinensis.
I just wish I could follow such a schedule. Upon seeing it, it makes perfect sense for myself. Alas, kid's school & regular working hours.
I did this in college, every day I wish I could go back. But my workplace has a strict 9-5 mentality with ~2 days to work from home each month.
I'm seriously considering to go freelance just for the hours.
I'm seriously considering to go freelance just for the hours.
Same here, my schedule rotates and it's the only way I stay sane. For example, today I sleep at 6pm and wakeup at 2am. Jobs and relationships are hard tho, how do you deal with relationships especially?
Sorry, I forgot to mention relationships in my other comment!
When it comes to making your own work hours or keeping an unconventional sleep schedule, a lot of people don't have well-formed thoughts or reactions to this (it's pretty uncommon).
In my experience, as a first reaction it is characterized as an extreme version of "staying up late and sleeping through the alarm." Obviously there's a lot of stigma there. Some people will be able to get past this, and some people won't.
I'm perfectly okay keeping this rotating schedule with a partner on a regular schedule, but I can absolutely see how somebody would not be happy with this.
One interesting thing is that my sleep cycle is as fundamental to me as day/night is to folks on a regular schedule. I would say understanding this and being empathetic is essential, and it's probably best if your partner is not just understanding but also appreciative.
My close friends and family range from understanding to appreciative, and I've not had any issues staying in touch or staying friends with these people. They're also willing to compromise and work with me to accommodate my schedule because they understand that it's a very regular and deliberate part of my life.
I had a partner that was very disapproving of me staying up past their sleep time and sleeping through their free hours on occasion, and there was no chance of it working out.
When it comes to making your own work hours or keeping an unconventional sleep schedule, a lot of people don't have well-formed thoughts or reactions to this (it's pretty uncommon).
In my experience, as a first reaction it is characterized as an extreme version of "staying up late and sleeping through the alarm." Obviously there's a lot of stigma there. Some people will be able to get past this, and some people won't.
I'm perfectly okay keeping this rotating schedule with a partner on a regular schedule, but I can absolutely see how somebody would not be happy with this.
One interesting thing is that my sleep cycle is as fundamental to me as day/night is to folks on a regular schedule. I would say understanding this and being empathetic is essential, and it's probably best if your partner is not just understanding but also appreciative.
My close friends and family range from understanding to appreciative, and I've not had any issues staying in touch or staying friends with these people. They're also willing to compromise and work with me to accommodate my schedule because they understand that it's a very regular and deliberate part of my life.
I had a partner that was very disapproving of me staying up past their sleep time and sleeping through their free hours on occasion, and there was no chance of it working out.
I'm lucky to have a client whose expectation is that daily tasks are completed by 5pm. When I tried to keep a daytime schedule this was very, very hard for me to do. Now however, I'm able to consistently feel rested and alert each day and I work during my productive hours. If my productive hours are after 5pm, chances are I'm working on my tasks for the next day.
It's possible to communicate this with new clients and set expectations for availability and productive hours, but it obviously wouldn't work for every client or every kind of work. I'd set the expectation from the beginning—this is how I work, and this is how I'll ensure that communication does not break down on weeks when I'm keeping odd hours. If the client is happy with the flow of communication and the work, it shouldn't matter what time of day you're working.
I'm even interested in exploring what kind of opportunities this opens up that normally would not be available, like doing contract work for multi-national companies or finding international clients. It's not something I've looked into much but I'm very interested in.
It's possible to communicate this with new clients and set expectations for availability and productive hours, but it obviously wouldn't work for every client or every kind of work. I'd set the expectation from the beginning—this is how I work, and this is how I'll ensure that communication does not break down on weeks when I'm keeping odd hours. If the client is happy with the flow of communication and the work, it shouldn't matter what time of day you're working.
I'm even interested in exploring what kind of opportunities this opens up that normally would not be available, like doing contract work for multi-national companies or finding international clients. It's not something I've looked into much but I'm very interested in.
Interesting, I thought I heard of a 25 hour sleep cycle before so I looked it up.
>>
Over the first two years, 25 subjects stayed in the bunker and were monitored. The researchers noted that the majority of them woke up slightly later every day.
Their average days were no longer 24 hours, but soon lengthened to between 24.7 and 25.2 hours.
However, this length then remained constant, and their bodily functions basically followed this new rhythm.
As this rhythm does not correspond to conventional day and night, it is called the circadian rhythm (lat. circa = approximate, dies = day).
<<
courtesy of the Max Planck Institute for Behavioral Physiology
https://www.mpg.de/943613/S003_Flashback_060_061.pdf
>>
Over the first two years, 25 subjects stayed in the bunker and were monitored. The researchers noted that the majority of them woke up slightly later every day.
Their average days were no longer 24 hours, but soon lengthened to between 24.7 and 25.2 hours.
However, this length then remained constant, and their bodily functions basically followed this new rhythm.
As this rhythm does not correspond to conventional day and night, it is called the circadian rhythm (lat. circa = approximate, dies = day).
<<
courtesy of the Max Planck Institute for Behavioral Physiology
https://www.mpg.de/943613/S003_Flashback_060_061.pdf
Thanks for posting this. My diurnal cycle is also ~25 hours. But my schedule is more chaotic, in that working and sleeping times depend on work, personal and social commitments. And of course, I freelance.
Edit: I've been doing this for decades.
Edit: I've been doing this for decades.
I've done the same before for a few months, and I also found myself getting up an hour later every day. It was amazing.
I do something like this once in a while. When I get sick of staying up late and sleeping in too many days in a row, I start going to bed about four hours later each night, and reset my schedule to normal within a week. This weekend has been a good time for it, with one less hour to get past.
28-Hour Day: https://xkcd.com/320/
What kind of latitude do you live at? I wonder if the schedule you're describing would be worse in the summer or in the winter.
28-Hour Day: https://xkcd.com/320/
What kind of latitude do you live at? I wonder if the schedule you're describing would be worse in the summer or in the winter.
I don't know about sleep and depression. My Mom was bipolar and the topic never came up, other than her being up to all hours when she was manic.
But I recently read an interesting article about vitamin D and that lead me to supplement magnesium and vitamins D, A and K. I only do it once every three days to be conservative.
I also recently changed my evening routine during the week, cutting out TV and stopped eating chips after dinner.
For the morning and the evening changes, I devised a routine of things I do that make doing the hard parts easier. In the morning, I turn the light on, use the restroom, drink some water, set a timer for ten minutes, relax until it goes off, exercise, shower, dress and get out the door. I try to stick to this every day.
But I recently read an interesting article about vitamin D and that lead me to supplement magnesium and vitamins D, A and K. I only do it once every three days to be conservative.
http://www.precisionnutrition.com/stop-vitamin-d
I also recently changed my evening routine during the week, cutting out TV and stopped eating chips after dinner.
For the morning and the evening changes, I devised a routine of things I do that make doing the hard parts easier. In the morning, I turn the light on, use the restroom, drink some water, set a timer for ten minutes, relax until it goes off, exercise, shower, dress and get out the door. I try to stick to this every day.
I also did some reading about vitamins last year and ended up taking vitamin d for a while, then magnesium for a while. My method wasn't any more scientific than that, but the vitamin D had no noticeable effect, while the effect of magnesium was dramatic. I was suffering from mood swings, poor concentration and low energy serious enough that I was considering seeing a psychologist about depression. Magnesium seems to eliminate the problem completely.
I just wish there was a better way to figure out your deficiency than just popping some pills and wait to see what happens. A weekly blood test for vitamin levels combined with mood and health journaling would probably give me the kind of data I'm looking for, but that only seems to be available in science fiction so far.
I just wish there was a better way to figure out your deficiency than just popping some pills and wait to see what happens. A weekly blood test for vitamin levels combined with mood and health journaling would probably give me the kind of data I'm looking for, but that only seems to be available in science fiction so far.
If you have a disease such as depression, make a list of conditions that can cause it. For depression, vitamin deficiencies would be on the list (but also things like hormone imbalances, and many other conditions). Bring this list to your doc and let them add probabilities to each condition. Now work your way down the list, and get the blood work done.
In any case, make sure your doc presents upfront an analytical approach to curing your illness. Don't let them just do what they think is right because you're likely to end up in a maze.
In any case, make sure your doc presents upfront an analytical approach to curing your illness. Don't let them just do what they think is right because you're likely to end up in a maze.
as someone who has suffered from acute and chronic* depression, i do want ask, is disease the correct noun?
by "acute and chronic" relating to my experience, I intend this to mean long term and severe, but also "narrow basis" and severe and recurring. I know I am overloading a operator somewhere here... [ inline footnote for reading meter]
If cancer is many kinds, it is a a disease in the sense that it is systemic, and can be cured, in theory, by medicine.*
In the similar way, depression is a very wide and complex range of similar things, but the systemic nature is less definable, we only have systemic symptoms, do we not? I mean is my supposition accurate medically?
By systemic I mean depression is a malfunction of systems, interacting, that we can define as alien,unwanted, interactions of our body and brain chemistry (for surely depression can affect the entire being, and so we find things like magnesium, or sunlight or better diet help, if not resolve)
But the conditions which can cause my depression, are emotional or circumstantial even, very much more than environmental or physical health.
(I learned this after too many years had passed, I was made to be unaware, unpleasantly made to be unaware, of a infant trauma i endured amazingly well, but which sank triggers deep into my psyche)
Luckily - if by luckily you understand at enormous human cost* - I got through most of my younger years without resort to clinical medical intervention, such as by medication regimes, and I curl up in a fetal ball every time I hear even reference to another lamentable saga of medication experimentation (by the doctors, not patients) endured along the way to a viable life, so common among programmers.
My question whether "disease" is first of all the appropriate word to describe depression, must come with a sister question: if disease is not a universally sound description of depression, is it so in some cases, even edge cases, and if we have stretched the definition, is there a underlying argument for why we stretched the definition, other than those afflicted so often feel accursed and afflicted as if by terminal disease?
It seems to me, that because depression is a vital and axial point of interaction between brain, mind systems (reflexive brain body interfaces, e.g. exercise benefits almost always functioning) and body, is therefore a better taxonomy not necessary?
The best description I ever heard, of the DSM, is that with only the effort of observation and tedious reference, you could probably diagnose any child with all the pediatric diagnoses therein contained. Whether strictly true or not, and I wish I could recall to whom that quip is attributable, but a Psychiatric doctor 5 , that certainly ought to strike home with anyone old enough ever to have had the pangs of wanting a family.
I suggest that the computing community, is uniquely positioned, to develop a better and more innately intelligent, taxonomy, of psychiatric "disease" (if it must be so called) and that it might be right to "reclaim" a important but seriously, gravely, and frequently abused "discipline" from a profession almost a industry of commercial practitioners.
* years and years after i learned what "survival rate" for cancer really means, I am still aghast that such a blatant semantic spin could be applied to something s incredibly important. The very idea that a huge, industrial scale, hard science in modern medicine, would willingly supplicate to acceptance of language so distorting, and liable to distort perception, remains beyond me, a assault on the senses I first gained benefit my first and earliest exposure to science as a discipline.
* Beyond me, the personal devastation to loved ones, to anyone who cared for me, ever, was appalling. For only myself, I elected to end up in prison, rather than risk being committed, which would have created a probably fatal misdiagnosis that freezes me, i feel nauseous just saying this.. these people play with lives... in prison, i only found about two thirds were dumped there who probably should have been in hospital for mental health problems, and did some amateur lawyering, of which I am intensely proud, and one day want to figure out a way to encourage like efforts, because it sure ain't hard, law, only getting any legal system or judge to understand the black and white ink on paper thing, is actually hard.
* I think many of us seek the rationale and intellectual uterine safety of computing, the warm appreciation of rationality and consistency that in particular low level programming can provide. My earliest observation of a sales floor, was that mental health must be inversely proportional to the immediately available intellectual structures, and that the semantic playfulness, to be polite, of my company's sales outfit, was the obvious explanation for whiskey under desks, and regular delivery of marching powders. Sometimes this drives the more creative to create enormous works, of varying success, in creating reflexive, consistent, homogeneous systems. At least I thought that efforts such as CLOS, C++ templates, were efforts at including the world, by type inheritance, and therefore insuring a hermetic and therefore emotionally safe, environment in the editor. (But then I purchased Design Patterns, when it came out, hardback, and loved it... but i knew i may have projected this thought onto it, as much as it may be a projection now, and by no means should I expect to be able to apply my own self meta cognition into the world, not before some very careful type definition, anyhow...
*5 two school friends attained giddying heights, one Royal Colldge Psychiatry and General Medical Council (one of the boards anyway), the other a worldwide veep for a major pharma, having a psycho-pharma career taking him to that position. Neither will;speak of their experiences, both quit from such great heights, i sense about the moment their family was financially secure. One works with startups now, and I wish I could give my bottom of lunch box adoring endorsement, but both are privacy intense, for indisputably valid, obvious, reasons..
by "acute and chronic" relating to my experience, I intend this to mean long term and severe, but also "narrow basis" and severe and recurring. I know I am overloading a operator somewhere here... [ inline footnote for reading meter]
If cancer is many kinds, it is a a disease in the sense that it is systemic, and can be cured, in theory, by medicine.*
In the similar way, depression is a very wide and complex range of similar things, but the systemic nature is less definable, we only have systemic symptoms, do we not? I mean is my supposition accurate medically?
By systemic I mean depression is a malfunction of systems, interacting, that we can define as alien,unwanted, interactions of our body and brain chemistry (for surely depression can affect the entire being, and so we find things like magnesium, or sunlight or better diet help, if not resolve)
But the conditions which can cause my depression, are emotional or circumstantial even, very much more than environmental or physical health.
(I learned this after too many years had passed, I was made to be unaware, unpleasantly made to be unaware, of a infant trauma i endured amazingly well, but which sank triggers deep into my psyche)
Luckily - if by luckily you understand at enormous human cost* - I got through most of my younger years without resort to clinical medical intervention, such as by medication regimes, and I curl up in a fetal ball every time I hear even reference to another lamentable saga of medication experimentation (by the doctors, not patients) endured along the way to a viable life, so common among programmers.
My question whether "disease" is first of all the appropriate word to describe depression, must come with a sister question: if disease is not a universally sound description of depression, is it so in some cases, even edge cases, and if we have stretched the definition, is there a underlying argument for why we stretched the definition, other than those afflicted so often feel accursed and afflicted as if by terminal disease?
It seems to me, that because depression is a vital and axial point of interaction between brain, mind systems (reflexive brain body interfaces, e.g. exercise benefits almost always functioning) and body, is therefore a better taxonomy not necessary?
The best description I ever heard, of the DSM, is that with only the effort of observation and tedious reference, you could probably diagnose any child with all the pediatric diagnoses therein contained. Whether strictly true or not, and I wish I could recall to whom that quip is attributable, but a Psychiatric doctor 5 , that certainly ought to strike home with anyone old enough ever to have had the pangs of wanting a family.
I suggest that the computing community, is uniquely positioned, to develop a better and more innately intelligent, taxonomy, of psychiatric "disease" (if it must be so called) and that it might be right to "reclaim" a important but seriously, gravely, and frequently abused "discipline" from a profession almost a industry of commercial practitioners.
* years and years after i learned what "survival rate" for cancer really means, I am still aghast that such a blatant semantic spin could be applied to something s incredibly important. The very idea that a huge, industrial scale, hard science in modern medicine, would willingly supplicate to acceptance of language so distorting, and liable to distort perception, remains beyond me, a assault on the senses I first gained benefit my first and earliest exposure to science as a discipline.
* Beyond me, the personal devastation to loved ones, to anyone who cared for me, ever, was appalling. For only myself, I elected to end up in prison, rather than risk being committed, which would have created a probably fatal misdiagnosis that freezes me, i feel nauseous just saying this.. these people play with lives... in prison, i only found about two thirds were dumped there who probably should have been in hospital for mental health problems, and did some amateur lawyering, of which I am intensely proud, and one day want to figure out a way to encourage like efforts, because it sure ain't hard, law, only getting any legal system or judge to understand the black and white ink on paper thing, is actually hard.
* I think many of us seek the rationale and intellectual uterine safety of computing, the warm appreciation of rationality and consistency that in particular low level programming can provide. My earliest observation of a sales floor, was that mental health must be inversely proportional to the immediately available intellectual structures, and that the semantic playfulness, to be polite, of my company's sales outfit, was the obvious explanation for whiskey under desks, and regular delivery of marching powders. Sometimes this drives the more creative to create enormous works, of varying success, in creating reflexive, consistent, homogeneous systems. At least I thought that efforts such as CLOS, C++ templates, were efforts at including the world, by type inheritance, and therefore insuring a hermetic and therefore emotionally safe, environment in the editor. (But then I purchased Design Patterns, when it came out, hardback, and loved it... but i knew i may have projected this thought onto it, as much as it may be a projection now, and by no means should I expect to be able to apply my own self meta cognition into the world, not before some very careful type definition, anyhow...
*5 two school friends attained giddying heights, one Royal Colldge Psychiatry and General Medical Council (one of the boards anyway), the other a worldwide veep for a major pharma, having a psycho-pharma career taking him to that position. Neither will;speak of their experiences, both quit from such great heights, i sense about the moment their family was financially secure. One works with startups now, and I wish I could give my bottom of lunch box adoring endorsement, but both are privacy intense, for indisputably valid, obvious, reasons..
Hey, I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this question (statement?), but maybe you should think it through some more, edit, and make it a blog post? Some interesting ideas.
There's a certain level of orthodoxy in psychiatry now.. I have yet to see anyone try to get any information other than "let's try putting you on this extremely mood altering pill with side effects for a month". No attempt is made to find any real evidence other than anecdotal patient information. Maybe the science isn't there?
The science isn't there yet :( Quite likely there are various neurologial/genetic reasons for things like adhd and depression.
It's quite likely that there are many subtypes of that, depending on which pathways are broken, but we aren't good enough yet to figure out the details.
If you have a car with a locked hood, there is not much you can do but hit it in various places and hope it works.
Some people are trying to unlock the hood, and one day they surely will succeed. But for now, all we're left with is listening carefully and trying from the safest to the craziest options.
It's quite likely that there are many subtypes of that, depending on which pathways are broken, but we aren't good enough yet to figure out the details.
If you have a car with a locked hood, there is not much you can do but hit it in various places and hope it works.
Some people are trying to unlock the hood, and one day they surely will succeed. But for now, all we're left with is listening carefully and trying from the safest to the craziest options.
Maybe the science isn't there?
That's exactly it. A given drug may be one person's savior and another person's nightmare. It's extremely complex. To get just a hint of what may be going on, check out Scott's article on ANTIDEPRESSANT PHARMACOGENOMICS [0].
[0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/06/antidepressant-pharmac...
That's exactly it. A given drug may be one person's savior and another person's nightmare. It's extremely complex. To get just a hint of what may be going on, check out Scott's article on ANTIDEPRESSANT PHARMACOGENOMICS [0].
[0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/06/antidepressant-pharmac...
And it's failing patients left and right, who have to somehow go to work while already stressed anxious or depressed while now having to deal with rapid mood changes, insomnia, or one of any other side effects. If you roll the dice and get the wrong medication you will be worse off where you started. People shouldn't be used as test tubes - in no other field is it okay to "experiment" on people like in psychiatry.
I've never heard that about magnesium, thanks for the heads up. It's worth a shot a suppose. Cheers
Sorry man but I have to butt in here.
The culture of hacker news-type thinking can be very toxic and lead to such thoughts as "I just wish there was a better way to figure out your deficiency than just popping some pills and wait to see what happens. A weekly blood test for vitamin levels combined with mood and health journaling would probably give me the kind of data I'm looking for, but that only seems to be available in science fiction so far."
Notice how you are trying to find a solution based around technology. Why does the solution have to involve technology? I think hanging around on forums like this, or with engineers to often can blind us to solutions which don't require engineering.
If all we have is hammer then nails nails everywhere!!
We're all guilty of it. Let's just be aware of it when it happens and move on.
Ready for the solution? It's very simple but tough to follow through with : Radically Change your diet.
Eat plants mostly, eat within a time window (don't allow yourself to oversnack, etc.), don't eat shit, not even a little bit, cut it out 100%. Be extreme, this is the experimentation phase. Later you can be less extreme, but let's see how much a radical change to the diet will affect the body.
This isn't a guarantee to fix vitamin deficiencies, but I will gladly bet that it will sure help a hell of a lot.
Finally, I would like to add that another trap that we all fall into is trying to optimize a system by changing one thing at a time. Firstly, this doesn't actually work. Secondly, this is extremely slooooowww.
If we want to experience change fast we have to be radical about changing our habits. If I am experimenting with anything in my life it's a good idea to try all sorts of different stuff. Diversify my experiments. Explore. If you are having vitamin deficiency issues and are not setting yourself up to be in the position to explore and experiment with diet, then you will have to wait for luck to come along before your issue can find itself a solution.
Again, hopefully I don't sound like an ass, I am just trying to help, given that I make the same mistake a lot in my own life, and have screwed myself over too much to not try and speak up a bit on the subject.
Feel free to be angry with me :) :(
The culture of hacker news-type thinking can be very toxic and lead to such thoughts as "I just wish there was a better way to figure out your deficiency than just popping some pills and wait to see what happens. A weekly blood test for vitamin levels combined with mood and health journaling would probably give me the kind of data I'm looking for, but that only seems to be available in science fiction so far."
Notice how you are trying to find a solution based around technology. Why does the solution have to involve technology? I think hanging around on forums like this, or with engineers to often can blind us to solutions which don't require engineering.
If all we have is hammer then nails nails everywhere!!
We're all guilty of it. Let's just be aware of it when it happens and move on.
Ready for the solution? It's very simple but tough to follow through with : Radically Change your diet.
Eat plants mostly, eat within a time window (don't allow yourself to oversnack, etc.), don't eat shit, not even a little bit, cut it out 100%. Be extreme, this is the experimentation phase. Later you can be less extreme, but let's see how much a radical change to the diet will affect the body.
This isn't a guarantee to fix vitamin deficiencies, but I will gladly bet that it will sure help a hell of a lot.
Finally, I would like to add that another trap that we all fall into is trying to optimize a system by changing one thing at a time. Firstly, this doesn't actually work. Secondly, this is extremely slooooowww.
If we want to experience change fast we have to be radical about changing our habits. If I am experimenting with anything in my life it's a good idea to try all sorts of different stuff. Diversify my experiments. Explore. If you are having vitamin deficiency issues and are not setting yourself up to be in the position to explore and experiment with diet, then you will have to wait for luck to come along before your issue can find itself a solution.
Again, hopefully I don't sound like an ass, I am just trying to help, given that I make the same mistake a lot in my own life, and have screwed myself over too much to not try and speak up a bit on the subject.
Feel free to be angry with me :) :(
Please source or argue your claims.
> Why does the solution have to involve technology?
Because technology has the potential to be more powerful than other solutions.
Your suggestion, and the direction of your post in general, sounds like moralism. Moralistic suggestions have more to do with virtue and privilege signaling than actual results. I am generally extremely suspicious of any advice that comes from a moralistic angle because it's noisy and mostly driven by logic in the nature of "bad things don't happen to people who live correctly".
Unsurprisingly, the suggestion misses the fact that eating plants is not going to address something like a Vitamin D deficiency. Vitamin D deficiencies, as far as we currently know, are caused by lack of sunlight and the use of sunscreen.
> Why does the solution have to involve technology?
Because technology has the potential to be more powerful than other solutions.
Your suggestion, and the direction of your post in general, sounds like moralism. Moralistic suggestions have more to do with virtue and privilege signaling than actual results. I am generally extremely suspicious of any advice that comes from a moralistic angle because it's noisy and mostly driven by logic in the nature of "bad things don't happen to people who live correctly".
Unsurprisingly, the suggestion misses the fact that eating plants is not going to address something like a Vitamin D deficiency. Vitamin D deficiencies, as far as we currently know, are caused by lack of sunlight and the use of sunscreen.
The reason people are looking to science for this problem is because science has historically been at the forefront of every medical breakthrough. You're suggesting to give it up in favor of what? Some 'radically change your diet' bullshit that you haven't backed up with a single piece of objective evidence? You're really advocating snake oil over engineering? That's not to say that radical diet changes don't work, but your approach to this is completely backwards.
I'd like to think that society as a whole has moved on from your mindset about a century ago. We're past meaningless non-statements like 'this isn't guaranteed to solve the issue but I bet it will help a lot'.
I'd like to think that society as a whole has moved on from your mindset about a century ago. We're past meaningless non-statements like 'this isn't guaranteed to solve the issue but I bet it will help a lot'.
Somebody is overly sensitive. Science has no place for the sensitive.
You have no idea who I am. I could be a pretty smart guy for all you know.
History repeats itself because of people who think they are above it. What you say here worries me.
Be careful. You are a citizen of the echo chamber now.
You have no idea who I am. I could be a pretty smart guy for all you know.
History repeats itself because of people who think they are above it. What you say here worries me.
Be careful. You are a citizen of the echo chamber now.
Ah come off it, this is a disappointing response. You may be right but nobody reading this would have any reason to believe so. At the most basic level, if you believe that diet change beats supplementation or fixes the problems claimed, you have surely done research into this beyond personal experimentation. If you share your work then you are likely to persuade more people, and hence encourage better health behaviours among your your peers -- assuming your findings to be true and reproducible.
Conversely, if you say you've got all the answers and everyone else just needs to reproduce your hard work, but you won't share your process or results, you can expect to antagonise people.
This applies throughout life and not just in "science".
Conversely, if you say you've got all the answers and everyone else just needs to reproduce your hard work, but you won't share your process or results, you can expect to antagonise people.
This applies throughout life and not just in "science".
No, you don't sound like an ass, but I feel like I've been where you are and have a bit more perspective to add.
Circadian rhythms are a thing, and eating within a time window may have a great effect for some people. I'm already very rigid with my eating patterns and I don't see that it adds any value except for giving me a headache if I happen to miss my window.
Eating mostly plants is probably a good idea, I know there's mountains of evidence backing it up. But every time I try it, I find it difficult to physically put enough food in my body to satisfy my energy needs. I have to spend so much time shopping, prepping, cooking, and planning - activities that I do not enjoy - that I end up less happy because I'm spending my time on something I don't want to do.
In addition to that, eating a lot of plant material gives you hella constipation. Believe me, I know. Maybe your body gets used to it after a while, but a month of asshole-tearing shits is enough to tell me that I need more meat and dairy in my diet. I lift - at least, when I'm able to eat enough calories to sustain the energy level I need to lift, I lift. That hasn't happened for a while because I'm trying to save up for something and be frugal, so I've been eating less meat and dairy to save money. As a result, I don't have enough energy to lift. There just aren't enough hours in the day to consume that many calories in beans.
There are counterarguments for all the points I've made, I know them all. But arguing the points is another example of the hackernews type toxic thinking. You don't need the counterarguments. You know that the changes you recommend work, because they worked for you.
Fair enough. But magnesium worked for me, and I didn't even have to give up meat. Chances are switching to a mostly-plants non-shit diet would have given me the same effect, but my way is soooo much easier. If all someone needs to not be depressed anymore is a vitamin, then damn, they need to know what that vitamin is. Because when you're depressed, healthy eating is really unlikely to happen. You NEED the shortcut.
Circadian rhythms are a thing, and eating within a time window may have a great effect for some people. I'm already very rigid with my eating patterns and I don't see that it adds any value except for giving me a headache if I happen to miss my window.
Eating mostly plants is probably a good idea, I know there's mountains of evidence backing it up. But every time I try it, I find it difficult to physically put enough food in my body to satisfy my energy needs. I have to spend so much time shopping, prepping, cooking, and planning - activities that I do not enjoy - that I end up less happy because I'm spending my time on something I don't want to do.
In addition to that, eating a lot of plant material gives you hella constipation. Believe me, I know. Maybe your body gets used to it after a while, but a month of asshole-tearing shits is enough to tell me that I need more meat and dairy in my diet. I lift - at least, when I'm able to eat enough calories to sustain the energy level I need to lift, I lift. That hasn't happened for a while because I'm trying to save up for something and be frugal, so I've been eating less meat and dairy to save money. As a result, I don't have enough energy to lift. There just aren't enough hours in the day to consume that many calories in beans.
There are counterarguments for all the points I've made, I know them all. But arguing the points is another example of the hackernews type toxic thinking. You don't need the counterarguments. You know that the changes you recommend work, because they worked for you.
Fair enough. But magnesium worked for me, and I didn't even have to give up meat. Chances are switching to a mostly-plants non-shit diet would have given me the same effect, but my way is soooo much easier. If all someone needs to not be depressed anymore is a vitamin, then damn, they need to know what that vitamin is. Because when you're depressed, healthy eating is really unlikely to happen. You NEED the shortcut.
How did you decide which product to purchase for your supplements? Can you recommend any?
I just went to Whole Foods and bought the generics, except for the magnesium, where I bought a type that has good absorption. Many magnesium supplements do not.
I tried to avoid mega-dosing, so to ensure that I only supplement every third day. I was more concerned about any deficiencies.
And I went to Whole Foods because of that supplement scandal a couple of years ago. Whole Foods may charge a lot but is more trusted than GNC or Walmart, at least by me.
Here's what I use:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6qoDAnVsAANtQ0.jpg
I tried to avoid mega-dosing, so to ensure that I only supplement every third day. I was more concerned about any deficiencies.
And I went to Whole Foods because of that supplement scandal a couple of years ago. Whole Foods may charge a lot but is more trusted than GNC or Walmart, at least by me.
Here's what I use:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6qoDAnVsAANtQ0.jpg
I agree in that I go to Whole Foods or a similar store over mass market choices like Walmart, but even at Whole Foods you're not necessarily getting the best form of supplement in those generics. Differences between bio-availability or effectiveness can be very notable between citrates, acetates, chelates, glycinates, picolinates, etc. I've personally found some good functional medicine sources of information (I've found Chris Kresser and Chris Masterjohn informative, balanced, and non-doctrinaire) that pass the smell test, but find somewhere you trust that breaks that information down a bit more so that you're getting the best form of supplements. The best forms in my experience are typically not is the generics or multivitamins.
Which is why I used magnesium citrate, as displayed above in a photo.
Check labdoor.com first to see if they've tested the product you're looking for.
... if whatever you want hasn't been tested by labdoor yet: find the best form of whatever you're trying to take:
1. Vitamin K2 in the form of MK7 is a great form of Vitamin K.
2. Reputable brands otherwise (I avoid most drug store brands like CVS/Walgreens).
... if whatever you want hasn't been tested by labdoor yet: find the best form of whatever you're trying to take:
1. Vitamin K2 in the form of MK7 is a great form of Vitamin K.
2. Reputable brands otherwise (I avoid most drug store brands like CVS/Walgreens).
[deleted]
Do you mind me asking what age you are?
>last December I became a morning person using early morning light and exercise //
Where do you live that gets light on December mornings?
>last December I became a morning person using early morning light and exercise //
Where do you live that gets light on December mornings?
>>last December I became a morning person using early morning light and exercise //
>Where do you live that gets light on December mornings?
It could just be that stretchwithme just turns on all the lights, etc. Living in the Pacific Northwest, I know all about waking up and leaving in the dark and coming home to the dark in the winter time.
I do a similar thing in the mornings, though I didn't ever consciously decide to be a morning person. I go to bed at pretty normal times between 9 and 10PM most nights. If I wake up any time before 1:30 or 2AM and keep all the nights off and fumble through the dark I'll be able to get back to sleep no problem. If I have to flip on a light it will take me much longer to get back to sleep.
If it's after about 2:30 or 3:00AM, there's no way I'm going back to bed- and I'm going to be supplementing with copious amounts of coffee to keep my face from dragging on the floor all day.
After about 4:00, I'm fine. Without an alarm I usually start waking up a little after 4:00 and my routine usually has me out of the house about 30 minutes from deciding to get out of bed.
The first thing I do is review my To Do list for the day on my phone. 2 reasons: 1) I start crunching on it in my head as I'm going about the morning routine, and 2) the blast of light (even w/ night mode still on) is like a jolt to get me moving when it's otherwise pitch black.
It could just be that stretchwithme just turns on all the lights, etc. Living in the Pacific Northwest, I know all about waking up and leaving in the dark and coming home to the dark in the winter time.
I do a similar thing in the mornings, though I didn't ever consciously decide to be a morning person. I go to bed at pretty normal times between 9 and 10PM most nights. If I wake up any time before 1:30 or 2AM and keep all the nights off and fumble through the dark I'll be able to get back to sleep no problem. If I have to flip on a light it will take me much longer to get back to sleep.
If it's after about 2:30 or 3:00AM, there's no way I'm going back to bed- and I'm going to be supplementing with copious amounts of coffee to keep my face from dragging on the floor all day.
After about 4:00, I'm fine. Without an alarm I usually start waking up a little after 4:00 and my routine usually has me out of the house about 30 minutes from deciding to get out of bed.
The first thing I do is review my To Do list for the day on my phone. 2 reasons: 1) I start crunching on it in my head as I'm going about the morning routine, and 2) the blast of light (even w/ night mode still on) is like a jolt to get me moving when it's otherwise pitch black.
That's exactly it. I turn on the light when the alarm goes off. And make sure my eyes are open.
You can even go back to sleep after ten minutes and your circadian rhythm will start making you feel like going to bed earlier. And you need to go to bed when you feel that effect.
You can even go back to sleep after ten minutes and your circadian rhythm will start making you feel like going to bed earlier. And you need to go to bed when you feel that effect.
The entire Southern Hemisphere gets light on December mornings. The summer solstice for the Southern Hemisphere is during December.
I recently bought a Philips HF3520. I've read great things about it but unfortunately I'm too heavy of a sleeper that it doesn't work for me. Give it a shot, it's definitely worth it in the long run if it works for you.
I have trouble getting up and I'm considering one of these. Does it make any noise while plugged in? I have sensitive hearing and find for example a lot of modern LED lamps have annoying buzzing associated with them due to poor quality transformers. If I'm sleeping with this thing next to me it has to be absolutely silent.
I've got an older version (https://www.amazon.com/Philips-Hf3470-Wake-up-Light-White/dp...), I've never noticed any buzzing. Can't say I have supersensitive hearing but I tend to notice things like that.
FWIW it's "on offer" on Amazon UK, http://amzn.to/2mNBFR6 £90 (aff. link); USA it's http://amzn.to/2me5lUa $114.
Can confirm, it's awesome.
I DO mind! I'm terribly offended!!
Just kidding. I'm 53.
My bedroom gets light at 6 am when I wake up and turn on the light net to my bed. :-)
So I have an alarm that goes off then. You just need to keep your eyes open for several minutes for the cells in your eyes to recognize that there is enough light to start shifting your circadian rhythm.
It really works. Just be sure to stick with it.
And to go right back to it if you forget. Habits are everything and some habits have a lot more power than others.
Just kidding. I'm 53.
My bedroom gets light at 6 am when I wake up and turn on the light net to my bed. :-)
So I have an alarm that goes off then. You just need to keep your eyes open for several minutes for the cells in your eyes to recognize that there is enough light to start shifting your circadian rhythm.
It really works. Just be sure to stick with it.
And to go right back to it if you forget. Habits are everything and some habits have a lot more power than others.
Thanks for answering despite the obvious and unnecessary offense I caused you. ;0)
Could you comment a bit more on your light therapy?
I just turned the light on and kept my eyes open for at least 10 minutes.
Just turning on the light for a moment or looking at the time on your phone is not enough to stimulate the retinal ganglion cells. You have to keep your eyes open for several minutes.
If you consistently do this at a time before you would normally wake up, your clock shifts earlier. You'll wake up earlier even if you don't use an alarm. And you'll get sleepy earlier in the evening too.
Does that provide enough information?
Just turning on the light for a moment or looking at the time on your phone is not enough to stimulate the retinal ganglion cells. You have to keep your eyes open for several minutes.
If you consistently do this at a time before you would normally wake up, your clock shifts earlier. You'll wake up earlier even if you don't use an alarm. And you'll get sleepy earlier in the evening too.
Does that provide enough information?
> Tübingen who was hospitalized for depression and claimed that she normally kept her symptoms in check by taking all-night bike rides. He subsequently demonstrated in a group of depressed patients that a night of complete sleep deprivation produced an immediate, significant improvement in mood in about 60 percent of the group.
I thought this bit was neat. I'd heard that sleep deprivation can bring on a feeling of euphoria, and anecdotally, it has worked for me
I thought this bit was neat. I'd heard that sleep deprivation can bring on a feeling of euphoria, and anecdotally, it has worked for me
I noticed that stupid jokes and stuff seem much funnier to me when I am sleep deprived. One time I pulled an all nighter and then looked at some meme subreddits. I was laughing incredibly hard to stuff I wouldn't even normally find amusing.
This seems to be a well known phenomenon. There's a whole subreddit called 3am jokes (https://www.reddit.com/r/3amjokes/) for this.
This seems to be a well known phenomenon. There's a whole subreddit called 3am jokes (https://www.reddit.com/r/3amjokes/) for this.
I'm much better at making puns while sleep deprived.
I do take that as argument against sleep deprivation.
I've been there. I was missing the "I" tiles for a scrabble game and it was the funniest thing ever.
I've noticed this too, I don't think this is specific for people with a depression though. If I have about 4/5 hours of sleep I will be less smart the next day, but engaging with others or completing tasks despite the tiredness results in a huge boost to mood and a feeling of exhilaration and happiness. That is not to say you don't feel tired, especially when the work has not yet been completed, and the day is just starting. YMMV, N=1 and all that...
Your anecdotal experience is far from uncommon. For the article to even imply this as any sort of cure for depression, though, massively misinterprets the small amount of research on this.
edit: And as a sibling comment mentioned, we do know that cognition suffers immensely when sleep-deprived.
edit: And as a sibling comment mentioned, we do know that cognition suffers immensely when sleep-deprived.
I was thinking maybe the poorer cognition actually helps relieve the depression. Because a lot of depressives overthink (some past event, etc).
While you are certainly less able to overthink in that state, the euphoria is a discrete phenomenon. The euphoria and poorer high-level cognition seem not to be caused by each other (obviously discounting any cyclical feedback effects once they're both in play), but instead caused by the same process.
>discrete
'Distinct' you mean?
If only there was a way to get the euphoria without the reduction in function, huh?
'Distinct' you mean?
If only there was a way to get the euphoria without the reduction in function, huh?
I mean discrete.
Not so long ago I read a similar article. This small piece of research is just that - a piece, and I'm going to guess the actual effect will be seen once we combine the pieces. Sleep deprivation itself obviously isn't sustainable, but other things might just be.
Other sleep-related studies show things like decreasing REM sleep helps as well. Some psychiatric drugs already have this effect on people, in fact. Obviously, going without sleep is going to do this. Granted, this is all speculation from the bits I've read, but it would make sense - as well as why some folks find weed to help greatly: taken regularly, it often decreases dreaming.
I'd provide the link, but I can't remember where I read it. I've seen a few articles reporting on this particular thing.
Other sleep-related studies show things like decreasing REM sleep helps as well. Some psychiatric drugs already have this effect on people, in fact. Obviously, going without sleep is going to do this. Granted, this is all speculation from the bits I've read, but it would make sense - as well as why some folks find weed to help greatly: taken regularly, it often decreases dreaming.
I'd provide the link, but I can't remember where I read it. I've seen a few articles reporting on this particular thing.
Yea, it works when you want to trade cognition for action. If I don't need to make any tricky decisions, and would benefit from just moving a bunch of items forward, that's when sleep deprivation (all nighters) can work for me.
Mood yes. Ask the kids who rave all night. But cognition? Im not convinced. I find my memory and problem solving abilities really drop after 30+ hours without sleep. Maybe it is a good tool for the depressed, but i would not suggest it to those looking to boost otherwise healthy/normal minds.
> Mood yes. Ask the kids who rave all night.
I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but I think it's pretty safe to say there are bigger things contributing to "ravers" euphoria than sleep deprivation. Like the music, alcohol. Or in many popular European clubs, the recreational drugs.
That's not to say I'm suggesting people need to on something to be having a good time, but your "raver" example is a pretty poor one if it's not meant as a joke.
I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but I think it's pretty safe to say there are bigger things contributing to "ravers" euphoria than sleep deprivation. Like the music, alcohol. Or in many popular European clubs, the recreational drugs.
That's not to say I'm suggesting people need to on something to be having a good time, but your "raver" example is a pretty poor one if it's not meant as a joke.
Many ravers dont drink or use drugs. They are high on the energy associated with staying ot dancibg all night, exactly like the all-night bike rides in the OP.
Well as I said in my disclaimer, that would be the case for some. But I promise you it was only a minority of those who attended the club's I used to DJ at for the 10 years I was actively involved in the clubbing scene in the UK and mainland Europe.
Most people there weren't sober. But who cares what adults get up to as long as they respect one another. :)
You also cannot understate just how significant the effect music has on one's mood. I'd wager that alone would have a more significant affect than sleep deprivation alone. Plus exercise releases endorphins too
So I really don't think raving is a good example here since there's a multitude of other significant and well studied effects also at play.
Most people there weren't sober. But who cares what adults get up to as long as they respect one another. :)
You also cannot understate just how significant the effect music has on one's mood. I'd wager that alone would have a more significant affect than sleep deprivation alone. Plus exercise releases endorphins too
So I really don't think raving is a good example here since there's a multitude of other significant and well studied effects also at play.
I sometimes go a whole night without sleep when I'm nervous about something important. I function much better on no sleep than on less than 5 hours of sleep (for one night only that is).
What I've noticed is that without sleep, some of my abilities are stronger, but everything memory-related is much weaker. I notice everything extremely fast, think quickly and react much faster than normally. My focus is pretty crazy. But, I can't remember some things I know, and detailed memories of that day after a sleepless night are usually gone by the next day. I think it might be some sort of survival mode.
What I've noticed is that without sleep, some of my abilities are stronger, but everything memory-related is much weaker. I notice everything extremely fast, think quickly and react much faster than normally. My focus is pretty crazy. But, I can't remember some things I know, and detailed memories of that day after a sleepless night are usually gone by the next day. I think it might be some sort of survival mode.
Sounds like a stressed prey animal dropping higher brain functions (memory, long-term planning) in favor of the more reactive minute-to-minute instincts needed to avoid being spotted and eaten by lions.
I mean lions literally because four-legged things with the big teeth were a driving force of our evolution for millions of years. Those instincts/traits are very much with us today.
I mean lions literally because four-legged things with the big teeth were a driving force of our evolution for millions of years. Those instincts/traits are very much with us today.
Literally? Where do you live that lions would be a problem?! I'm joking, and sure there might be a trade off between higher and more basic brain functions, but I suppose those only really work for a short while, after which either will be impeded by exhaustion.
Edit: what's the word for that state of mind, maybe frenzy?
Edit: what's the word for that state of mind, maybe frenzy?
Yes. Cougars (mountain lions) are a thing where i live. Also bear, black and brown. It is an extreemly rare event for anyone to be harmed, but i do run into bear regularly in the summer.
why wouldn't you build a fortification like a house to keep the beasts at bay?
On garbage days you are much more likely to confront a bear around, even inside, your house than by randomly coming across one in the woods. I'm thinking about this because last week was "bear awareness day" in my area. Posters are up to remind people that they are coming out of hibernation.
Maybe after too little sleep at least you notice you feel bad, whereas without any sleep you don't even notice anymore. If your memory doesn't function right it's no surprise that your temporal perception inherently relying on memory would be impeded. Since the hormonal system is rather complex, enthusiasm can be a byproduct of trying to stay awake. Likewise, the sport mentioned in the OP is at least as likely to cause happiness, not to say that I doubt the headline altogether.
[deleted]
From personal experience, sleep deprivation can be likened to alcoholic intoxication.
Extreme tiredness is similar to drunkeness, in most respects, to me.
Totally anecdotal, but I wonder if it's related. Two nights ago, I was out with friends drinking and playing pool. We normally go home at 3AM, but this time we went to another bar after and stayed there until 10AM. At some point, maybe around 8AM, I became incredibly happy. Euphoric is actually the word I used to describe it at the time. I wondered if I'd been slipped ecstacy or something, since I was so happy beyond anything alcohol usually does.
It works, until you try to drive a car. And then you'll find that your reaction times and coordination are not what you think they are.
Personal experience, caused an accident when I was 23 this way and learned an important lesson: don't drive without having rested.
Personal experience, caused an accident when I was 23 this way and learned an important lesson: don't drive without having rested.
That sounds like bipolar to me
I'm hoping that society will adjust to recognize this because it feels like in certain circles, saying that you need to sleep seems to be seen a weakness.
I think that's part of a near-universal fallacy that conflates good health with strength of character. In the situation you described, having the ability to shrug off lack of sleep is a source of pride, as if it was entirely about willpower; in fact it is more likely related to health.
There is even a genetic component to it, at least for a small portion of people.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/genetic-mutation-...
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/genetic-mutation-...
I wonder what damage our twice yearly clock changes do. An hour doesn't seem like much but, giving an entire population a little bit of jet lag simultaneously has to be bad for us, right?
There are definitely measurable population-level effects, like increased traffic accidents [1] and heart attacks [2]. And given that its purported benefits are completely unsubstantiated, it's amazing that DST still exists.
[1] https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/app.20140100
[2] http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc0807104
[1] https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/app.20140100
[2] http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc0807104
I wish we would all go on DST and be done with it forever. The extra hour of usable daylight after work is a net win for societies mental health. We have farming machines that do the heavy lifting and are mostly automated now anyway. Unlike when it was enacted, there simply are much fewer farmers.
I will never understand this argument. Noon should be when the sun is roughly directly overhead. And there will be no increase in daylight compared to businesses adjusting working hours to open an hour earlier.
> And there will be no increase in daylight compared to businesses adjusting working hours to open an hour earlier.
That's just not how it works. it's much easier to have one entity say this is the time. having every business open up an hour earlier without some decree is not tenable because of tradition and change inertia.
the noon argument is not very compelling to me.
That's just not how it works. it's much easier to have one entity say this is the time. having every business open up an hour earlier without some decree is not tenable because of tradition and change inertia.
the noon argument is not very compelling to me.
I never understand why people care what number it is on a wall when the sun is anywhere.
I go even further with this and say the whole world should be on the same clock. Who cares if it says 03:00 when you eat dinner or 17:00 when you eat breakfast - and think how much easier it will be to plan anything that spans timezones!
I go even further with this and say the whole world should be on the same clock. Who cares if it says 03:00 when you eat dinner or 17:00 when you eat breakfast - and think how much easier it will be to plan anything that spans timezones!
Because people's daily cycles are tied to the orbit of the sun. It's nice to have a measurement of that. With our current system, noon is the middle of the day. So 12 feels like a nice time to schedule lunch. And 6 feels like a nice time to have dinner. And if you say something is happening at 10, I know it will be dark.
If you say you were up at 3 am, I know that was very late, no matter where on the Earth you are referring to. I don't need to adjust my sense of time whenever I change timezones. 12 is always roughly the middle of the day no matter where you are.
I don't want to like DST because it seems so inelegant. But it does give people an extra hour of sunlight. And I think that is a very desirable thing. There are a lot of mental health benefits associated with outdoor activities and exposure to sunlight. I have personally noticed my mood is very affected by the weather and whether I'm in sunlight.
If you say you were up at 3 am, I know that was very late, no matter where on the Earth you are referring to. I don't need to adjust my sense of time whenever I change timezones. 12 is always roughly the middle of the day no matter where you are.
I don't want to like DST because it seems so inelegant. But it does give people an extra hour of sunlight. And I think that is a very desirable thing. There are a lot of mental health benefits associated with outdoor activities and exposure to sunlight. I have personally noticed my mood is very affected by the weather and whether I'm in sunlight.
If people generally do X but you prefer Y, perhaps you could seek to understand the reasons behind X, rather than declare Y to be better.
think how much easier it will be to plan anything that spans timezones
Unless you expect all the Auzzies to move to the night shift, it just becomes more of a pain in the ass. You still have to line the phase of the day and timezones help simplify that by doing the work upfront.
You could switch to only using UTC outright for all your planning today. But even if you do, you'll find there is still a translation step of figuring out that business hours at location X are Y-Z UTC. Timezones make juggling the offsets easier, and also give you a stronger ability to roughly predict someone's schedule (like what time the business day starts, or not planning something during their lunch) just based on geography.
Unless you expect all the Auzzies to move to the night shift, it just becomes more of a pain in the ass. You still have to line the phase of the day and timezones help simplify that by doing the work upfront.
You could switch to only using UTC outright for all your planning today. But even if you do, you'll find there is still a translation step of figuring out that business hours at location X are Y-Z UTC. Timezones make juggling the offsets easier, and also give you a stronger ability to roughly predict someone's schedule (like what time the business day starts, or not planning something during their lunch) just based on geography.
I'd rather have the hour of daylight in the morning, so why not just stay on standard time?
I'd also much rather work 7-3 than 9-5.
I'd also much rather work 7-3 than 9-5.
What's stopping you working those hours now? I'm not a morning person so when I had jobs I would have to fight to start at some (to me) civilized hour like 10, but I don't mind working late. I had the impression that early birds had a much easier time of it since nobody is ever accused of being lazy for wanting to start work at 7am.
There's no problem with coming in at 7. It's the leaving at 3 after you've put in your eight hours that tends to be the sticky wicket.
And I'd rather work 10-6...but I'd be happy either way, if we just did away with the time shift.
I would prefer 7-5 and only work 4 days a week.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Think of the children!!!
EDIT: I should clarify that this is nearly always the argument brought up against year round DST, so that children during winter go to school with sunlight in the morning.
EDIT: I should clarify that this is nearly always the argument brought up against year round DST, so that children during winter go to school with sunlight in the morning.
Yes, let's think of the children, and let them get the sleep that they need. (I am not a morning person, and really should have had much more sleep after local sunrise.)
Spain has this issue. It is in the wrong timezone, which the government changed in the 1940s. Consequently it stays light until 6:30pm in winter. In mountainous regions such as Picos de Europa, towns in the valleys do have kids catching schoolbuses in near darkness at 8:30am. As a traveller I found the experience surreal. Although, we put the clocks forward an hour leading up to the 2000 Olympics so construction workers could work longer.
The 2000 Olympics where held in Sydney :)
Except that also depends on your latitude... Here at 57N it's dark until 9pm on Dec/Jan, currently the sun rises at 7am, and in the summer it's only dark for a couple of hours at night. Even with all-round DST it'll still be dark when children go to school in winter.
Shift their school cycle to be more in line with the sun.
[deleted]
Perhaps mentally ill people should sue for its removal on the basis that we don't want to carry the can for whatever non-actual benefits are ascribed to DST.
Clocks should be a means to measure time, not manipulate when people do things.
But think of the chaos if every person and business had to implement their own alternative to DST. Every business would change it's hours on a different date, and many wouldn't change their hours at all. Everyone would have to completely change their routines ad hocly. It's nice to have a single standard, and only have to change the clock.
If it helps, don't think of clock as a measure of the sun. Think of it as a measure of humanity's daily cycle. 12:00 is the middle of most people's day. Even if that isn't necessarily when the sun is highest in the sky. It's nice to have everyone's cycle regulated to a single standard.
If it helps, don't think of clock as a measure of the sun. Think of it as a measure of humanity's daily cycle. 12:00 is the middle of most people's day. Even if that isn't necessarily when the sun is highest in the sky. It's nice to have everyone's cycle regulated to a single standard.
Why would anyone want to implement their own DST? Why would anyone need to trick themselves by changing their clocks when they can just decide to get up at a different time?
And what was going on before DST was invented? Chaos?
And where people ignore this idea? Is it chaos there?
And what was going on before DST was invented? Chaos?
And where people ignore this idea? Is it chaos there?
>Why would anyone want to implement their own DST? Why would anyone need to trick themselves by changing their clocks when they can just decide to get up at a different time?
That's what I mean. Imagine if business hours changed suddenly at a certain date instead of the clock itself changing. And every business had a different date, and some did change and some didn't, etc.
>And what was going on before DST was invented? Chaos? And where people ignore this idea? Is it chaos there?
To avoid the chaos, people didn't even try to do it. And they stayed on the same schedule year round. This means they lost an extra hour of sunlight for half the year. Which is a pretty undesirable outcome. Less time for outdoor activities, worse moods, increased depression, etc.
That's what I mean. Imagine if business hours changed suddenly at a certain date instead of the clock itself changing. And every business had a different date, and some did change and some didn't, etc.
>And what was going on before DST was invented? Chaos? And where people ignore this idea? Is it chaos there?
To avoid the chaos, people didn't even try to do it. And they stayed on the same schedule year round. This means they lost an extra hour of sunlight for half the year. Which is a pretty undesirable outcome. Less time for outdoor activities, worse moods, increased depression, etc.
This is an argument against DST, not clocks.
That's right. I was referring to how clocks are used by DST to change our behavior. I wasn't arguing against clocks.
Unless you get up at 3AM, noon isn't the middle of your day.
It's the middle of your workday if you need daylight to work.
Yes, this! It's a measurement. Daylight savings time makes about as much sense to me as it would to have a "Winter Temperature Time", where we would all shift our thermometers up by some number of degrees to pretend it is still warm out. Nothing is actually changing, after all, we're just making it more difficult to talk about.
http://www.businessinsider.com/daylight-savings-dst-should-d...
"Daylight-saving time is dumb and we should get rid of it"
"Daylight-saving time is dumb and we should get rid of it"
I've tested myself for the past 10 years and it seems as though I get sick (cold/flu-like) more frequently when we lose an hour.
It's anecdata and small sample size and other possible confounding variables, but I think there is a kernel of truth in there.
It's anecdata and small sample size and other possible confounding variables, but I think there is a kernel of truth in there.
I know you acknowledged that's anactodal, but we lose an hour at the end of flu season. You're more likely to be sick during this time of the year. The clock change has nothing to do with it.
Thinking of the recent reproducibility crisis in psychology, I'm wondering how you can prove this without the placebo effect. How does someone try not sleeping without knowing if they are not sleeping? Or do you compare with people doing something else that is known to be useless? like a sugar pill. Thinking about how different colors of placebo in antidepressants have more or less intense effects, I wonder if the fact that using a placebo so different from the actual thing makes it pointless.
Obviously the proper starting point isn't comparing to placebo; it's gathering enough data to develop baseline expected rates of change before altering the variable you're testing.
I think it is quite impossible for folks to sleep-but-not sleeping. It is kind of like testing LSD against a placebo - it is rather obvious after some time has passed which has the real thing and which doesn't. It is still quite obvious that it works.
In this case, it'll be somewhat obvious who slept and who did not. There simply isn't a way to fake that. But we can compare the results of different types of sleep.
In this case, it'll be somewhat obvious who slept and who did not. There simply isn't a way to fake that. But we can compare the results of different types of sleep.
Just accept that psychiatry and most psychology has no basis in science.
I wonder how much coffee plays into this. I've yet to meet someone who sleeps consistently more than 8 hours per night who feels the need to drink coffee.
edit: 8 quality hours of sleep, e.g. you wake up and you're not tired.
edit: 8 quality hours of sleep, e.g. you wake up and you're not tired.
It depends on how much more than 8 hours we're talking about. Consistently oversleeping, especially 10+ hours a night, can be indicative of some potentially serious problems that either already exist or may in the future. Rather than making someone feel well-rested, it often has the opposite effect: confusion, lack of energy, sluggishness, etc. due to a poorer quality of sleep in general.
I'd imagine that self-medicating with lots of caffeine is a pretty natural response for most people in that situation even though it doesn't actually solve the problem.
I'd imagine that self-medicating with lots of caffeine is a pretty natural response for most people in that situation even though it doesn't actually solve the problem.
Hi. I sleep 8.5h a night and I need coffee. Nice to meet you.
I'm one of those people. When I'm in the habit of drinking coffee, regardless of how much sleep I get, if I miss my scheduled caffeine I get withdrawal symptoms- sick to my stomach, headaches. I'm currently most of the way through slowly on my caffeine intake, though, and it's been going well- it's just abrupt withdrawal that causes problems.
> quality hours
Yeah, that's the important part. I can sleep 10 hours and seem to get nothing out of it and still need coffee. And the coffee may be part of why I'm also not sleeping well. Not a good loop to be in.
Yeah, that's the important part. I can sleep 10 hours and seem to get nothing out of it and still need coffee. And the coffee may be part of why I'm also not sleeping well. Not a good loop to be in.
That's me. Genetic daytime sleepiness is a thing.
Modafinil has been a lifesaver for me.
Also, you have people with inherited dopamine management issues. Adhd aside, dopamine regulates internal clock, so delayed sleep phase is also a real thing. F.lux, blindshades and enough sunliht help, but just to a certain extent.
Modafinil has been a lifesaver for me.
Also, you have people with inherited dopamine management issues. Adhd aside, dopamine regulates internal clock, so delayed sleep phase is also a real thing. F.lux, blindshades and enough sunliht help, but just to a certain extent.
On the flipside, it's kind of crazy that there are people who are able to function consistently with very little sleep. A friend of mine says that if she gets eight hours of sleep, she feels incredibly groggy. But five hours? Perfect. She's been like that her entire life. I was astounded. She directed me to Ying-Hui Fu's study of DEC2.
huh? I sleep 8 hours a night and I definitely "need" coffee. It's a chemical thing at this point.
I have sleep apnea.
I need 10 hours of sleep and coffee in order to function.
I need 10 hours of sleep and coffee in order to function.
My experience is that sleep deprivation leads me into a manic episode, but any benefits are outweighed by the inevitable crash. My depression is generally treated effectively by a rigid sleep schedule and lots of sunlight.
My father, brother and I all only need about 5 or 6 hours of sleep. We all just wake up, no matter when we go to bed or how light or dark the room is at night or in the morning. I strongly suspect we have that gene that lets you sleep less, but NYT is indicating that they think I'm depressed based on the embedded interactive.
I don't feel depressed.
Short of a genomic test, how can one differentiate?
I don't feel depressed.
Short of a genomic test, how can one differentiate?
If you go to bed always at the same time and always wake up at the same time ( = having a proper sleeping schedule) and do not feel tired, irritated, etc., then you are fine.
A lot of people do not realize how important a good sleeping schedule is for both physical and mental health.
I go to bed roughly at the same time every day and get up at the same time every day as well and it really helps me with a lot of things.
A lot of people do not realize how important a good sleeping schedule is for both physical and mental health.
I go to bed roughly at the same time every day and get up at the same time every day as well and it really helps me with a lot of things.
Why is there a comment like this on every single HN post lately? Yes, you fall outside of the fat part of the bell curve. Congrats. What's your point? A single outlier does not disprove the post.
edited to add: fat part of the bell curve, since being outside of the bell curve entirely is not what I meant.
edited to add: fat part of the bell curve, since being outside of the bell curve entirely is not what I meant.
1. This isn't a lately thing, this type of thing has been happening for the over eight years I've been here.
2. Around 1% of people have the gene I'm referring to. Telling them they are all depressed without bothering to mention the possibility of the gene is something I'd expect better of the NYT. Just sharing the comment provides alternate theories to other HN readers that don't feel depressed.
3. I'm not sure if you read to the end of my comment, but the point is right there in black and white: "Short of a genomic test, how can one differentiate?" It isn't just a question for me, it's a question that I'm sure many people going to the article might have, and it broadens the topic more generally.
2. Around 1% of people have the gene I'm referring to. Telling them they are all depressed without bothering to mention the possibility of the gene is something I'd expect better of the NYT. Just sharing the comment provides alternate theories to other HN readers that don't feel depressed.
3. I'm not sure if you read to the end of my comment, but the point is right there in black and white: "Short of a genomic test, how can one differentiate?" It isn't just a question for me, it's a question that I'm sure many people going to the article might have, and it broadens the topic more generally.
Hear hear.
On the other hand you have people who have messed up sleep due to genetics, and this causes depression. And people who could sleep all the time and on schedule and still not feel rested.
The article hurts them all, and you too.
On the other hand you have people who have messed up sleep due to genetics, and this causes depression. And people who could sleep all the time and on schedule and still not feel rested.
The article hurts them all, and you too.
> fall outside of the bell curve
You know that Gaussian distributions specifically include outliers.
You know that Gaussian distributions specifically include outliers.
You know it's just an expression right?
If we change it to "fall outside of 2-sigma", will you allow us to return to the actual point, or will you continue with your passive-agressive hair-splitting?
If we change it to "fall outside of 2-sigma", will you allow us to return to the actual point, or will you continue with your passive-agressive hair-splitting?
I actually started doing that recently. I will sometimes wake up after only three hours. I don't necessarily think that genetics are necessary, on the other hand I do have some family history of this. Personally, I don't think much more of it than that I'm strongly motivated these days.
If you don't feel depressed, you're probably not depressed. Depression is like having rats in your head. Your failures are always in front of you. I'm kinda just getting over about 25 years of various degrees of suicidal depression. You guys may be a little neurodivergent but it's what they say, everyone needs a few mental blocks to play with. I'm sure you'll be fine :)
If you don't feel depressed, you're probably not depressed. Depression is like having rats in your head. Your failures are always in front of you. I'm kinda just getting over about 25 years of various degrees of suicidal depression. You guys may be a little neurodivergent but it's what they say, everyone needs a few mental blocks to play with. I'm sure you'll be fine :)
It could be that you are more wired for anxiety than depression, though. My mother is much like that. She's always been fine on 5-6 hours of sleep. She's also good in stressful situations - as long as there is stuff for her to do. If she's stuck waiting, not so well.
Anxiety is weird in that some of the symptoms overlap with depression.
Anxiety is weird in that some of the symptoms overlap with depression.
My anxiety and depression kicked in in 2006, after several triggers coincided. Some that I remember now are: dissapointment in my "friends", my inability to digest some college courses that had been way above my level of comprehension, falling in love with person A, while person B had fallen in love with me, alcohol overdose habit, stopping going to Sunday sermons after being dissapointed with local priest, pressure from my enviornment and myself to be best at everything I do, and so on. After that day X, I spent a whole week in bed, and started to behave strange.
So that left my parents no other option, but to eventually take me to psychiatrist.
When she put me on antidepressants, I started to act even worse. I wrote and drew on blackboards at college breaks, once asked a profssor in the middle of his lecture " what is time?", I wrote in my sister's chat while she was afk and talked nonsence to she's friends, I started to have all sorts of crazy ideas and I wrote on all walls and furniture in my room.
I can't really know exacly what happened, but my brain started a roller coaster ride between being uterlly depressed to extreme overthinking and I had a thought that I somehow controlled the reality by changing the mood I was in. At the same time all inhibitors were gone. A part of the feeling I had I can relate to a movie "A beautiful mind". That part of it that scares the uninformed viewer. So after regulating my treatment, my state become good enough for my parents to send me to the psychologist. Too bad she passed a few years latter. RIP. I mean she was top class. I had about 7-8 90-minutes sessions until my state became a-well-functioning-member-of-society again. My family's support was unprecendented. After a few more months I satrted team gaming heavily. After a year more my psychiatrist removed my therapy alltogether. After 1 more year I returned to church (other one) to youth choir and never had this thing again. The main thing that kept me alive and sane through my darkest hours was thought that I was once happy, and if God existed, he would not let me perish. This was just a hell one has to go through to get to heaven. Sorry for being a little off topic, I just wanted to share what had helped me. Oh, one thing, if you are diagnosed with anxiety and depression, hang in there and talk to somebody. It's not permanent. It passes. I wish you the best. ih
So that left my parents no other option, but to eventually take me to psychiatrist.
When she put me on antidepressants, I started to act even worse. I wrote and drew on blackboards at college breaks, once asked a profssor in the middle of his lecture " what is time?", I wrote in my sister's chat while she was afk and talked nonsence to she's friends, I started to have all sorts of crazy ideas and I wrote on all walls and furniture in my room.
I can't really know exacly what happened, but my brain started a roller coaster ride between being uterlly depressed to extreme overthinking and I had a thought that I somehow controlled the reality by changing the mood I was in. At the same time all inhibitors were gone. A part of the feeling I had I can relate to a movie "A beautiful mind". That part of it that scares the uninformed viewer. So after regulating my treatment, my state become good enough for my parents to send me to the psychologist. Too bad she passed a few years latter. RIP. I mean she was top class. I had about 7-8 90-minutes sessions until my state became a-well-functioning-member-of-society again. My family's support was unprecendented. After a few more months I satrted team gaming heavily. After a year more my psychiatrist removed my therapy alltogether. After 1 more year I returned to church (other one) to youth choir and never had this thing again. The main thing that kept me alive and sane through my darkest hours was thought that I was once happy, and if God existed, he would not let me perish. This was just a hell one has to go through to get to heaven. Sorry for being a little off topic, I just wanted to share what had helped me. Oh, one thing, if you are diagnosed with anxiety and depression, hang in there and talk to somebody. It's not permanent. It passes. I wish you the best. ih
Sleep deprivation would be a bad idea for me because sleep helps the immune system, and my immune system needs all the help it can get (because of my chronic infectious disease).
I have found however that _listening to music_ during sleep will prevent my sleeping a lot from having a depressant effect on my mood. I recommend avoiding music contain exciting or bracing passages; you don't want your sympathetic nervous system to become active during sleep.
If I learn something that I want to retain, then I don't listen to music that night, because the same process (REM sleep?) that tends to depress the mood also helps with the consolidation of new learnings and new skills.
I have found however that _listening to music_ during sleep will prevent my sleeping a lot from having a depressant effect on my mood. I recommend avoiding music contain exciting or bracing passages; you don't want your sympathetic nervous system to become active during sleep.
If I learn something that I want to retain, then I don't listen to music that night, because the same process (REM sleep?) that tends to depress the mood also helps with the consolidation of new learnings and new skills.
Que: people who deprive themselves of sleep and then fall into depression because that's what happens when you don't get enough sleep over a long enough period
> Que
As an interesting anecdatum, I've noticed that when I binge-sleep, i.e. for more than 8.5 hours, I feel depressed.
Yeah that happens to me too. It's almost like a sleep hangover. Very weird.
Jet lag was a major contributing factor to a bipolar episode I had in Brazil late last year (1), but I will admit to being skeptical of the advice to avoid sleep.
As much as I love to travel, at this point I have to cognizant of how it affects my mental health
https://crisisofthemind.com/fallout-from-an-international-bi...
As much as I love to travel, at this point I have to cognizant of how it affects my mental health
https://crisisofthemind.com/fallout-from-an-international-bi...
This is very interesting. I hope to see treatments that not only uses melatonin and environmental light, but one that also modifies artificial light (indoor/computer/phone/TV/etc...) to optimize wellness. Kind of a F.lux of Things.
One option is wearing blue-blocking sunglasses in the evening. It's cheap, and I know a couple of people who do it and believe it has helped with sleep.
Seems like curing pain in your foot by hitting your thumb with a hammer.
Sleep deprivation amplifies my emotions. The highs become higher, and the lows are lower. Like an op-amp.
Prayer and music helps to cope with the lows. Like a diode.
Sleeping less to wake up early and pray before work has had a huge emotional benefit. It's like an half-wave rectifier.
Prayer and music helps to cope with the lows. Like a diode.
Sleeping less to wake up early and pray before work has had a huge emotional benefit. It's like an half-wave rectifier.
The New York to Italy example in the article is a bit confusing to me. Seems that there's about 6 hours difference between Milan and New York, and the flight itself is 8~9 hours. Leaving New York at 6PM, arrives Milan at 3AM EST, 9AM Milan time.
"Instead of shifting you earlier to Italian time, it makes you feel it’s even later — that the night is over and it’s already morning." Does the body choose to this because shifting to "already morning" is smaller difference(6 hours) than "still not night time" (18 hours)?
About jet lag and so forth, why not try forget about DST and time zones and use UTC?
There are already people working night shifts and feeding babies :), everywhere, so we can assume, the number on our watch doesn't correlate to a certain mood-I-must-be-in-at-this-hour.
After all, if we ever leave for another planet, having single clock for single planet sure shall make communication easier than having time zones. Somebody always has eye bags.
Inpatient wake therapy has been used to treat hospitalized patients to jumpstart the antidepressant. Relapse happens soon after the treatment ends.
I'm not an expert in either of these areas (VR or depression), but after reading this I began to wonder if virtual reality could somehow provide a solution or at least mitigate the effects of a jet lagged traveler and/or a person suffering from depression by 'normalizing' their circadian rhythm.
The section in the article on jet lag mitigation was extremely confusing -- the author wrote of evening light and morning light but was unclear which time zone he was referring to.
Can someone explain a bit more clearly? If someone is traveling from SF to Europe or SF to Asia, when should melatonin and light be used optimally?
Can someone explain a bit more clearly? If someone is traveling from SF to Europe or SF to Asia, when should melatonin and light be used optimally?
I don't know what the author is saying. His example of NYC to Rome is flying east and he recommends darkness in the morning.
But then 2 paragraphs later, he says "Travel east and you’ll need morning light".
I find the entire article hard to read, but I am pre-coffee right now.
I find that I can go one night with minimal sleep and function just fine during the next day. So if I was going from NYC to Rome, I'd lift the shades in the early morning in Rome to make sure I'm super tired by the evening and go to bed at the correct time.
But then 2 paragraphs later, he says "Travel east and you’ll need morning light".
I find the entire article hard to read, but I am pre-coffee right now.
I find that I can go one night with minimal sleep and function just fine during the next day. So if I was going from NYC to Rome, I'd lift the shades in the early morning in Rome to make sure I'm super tired by the evening and go to bed at the correct time.
Not sure what is optimal, but I find melatonin 30min before the normal bedtime in a new country helps a lot (3mg day one, 1-2mg days two and three; 3 days total).
Interesting point here, if you search old HN discussions you can find a reference, but 200-250ug is the effective dose for melatonin, and larger amounts have a slightly decreased effect. I know it's never sold this way, but it's something you might want to experiment with (quartering 1mg pills or taking a few drops of a 10mg/ml liquid works well here).
If you suffer from depression, you should thoroughly research LSD and then make your fully informed personal decision.
On the negative side, this substance may become one of the reasons the pharmaceutical industry will lose recurrent revenues from disappearing dependency on expensive anti-depressants.
On the negative side, this substance may become one of the reasons the pharmaceutical industry will lose recurrent revenues from disappearing dependency on expensive anti-depressants.
The research on Ketamine as a one-shot cure is very promising too. Microdosing of LSD or psilocybin also has some interesting anecdsta behind it. There is definitely a lot of research to be done on these and other psychotropics like Ayahuasca/DMT, and MDMA. Organizations like MAPS are starting to get this work done.
Also, on the negative side, it can make you believe extraordinary claims without a corresponding amount of evidence.
You sound like someone I know who is an acid head. He also has some far out there beliefs that he has no evidence to back up with, acid is a cure all among them, although his life is very messed up.
I've never tried it , personally, but I think a lot of people that take it end up believing something or some things that do not follow.
This can end up great for a person if it involves their own success and it gives them the drive to pursue it where others would give up (this is what I believe happened to Steve Jobs). But it can also have profound negative effects. The guy I knew used to be a good friend, have a good job, and on a great track , but now he's running around trying to cajole money from people and systematically lies about his problems.
You sound like someone I know who is an acid head. He also has some far out there beliefs that he has no evidence to back up with, acid is a cure all among them, although his life is very messed up.
I've never tried it , personally, but I think a lot of people that take it end up believing something or some things that do not follow.
This can end up great for a person if it involves their own success and it gives them the drive to pursue it where others would give up (this is what I believe happened to Steve Jobs). But it can also have profound negative effects. The guy I knew used to be a good friend, have a good job, and on a great track , but now he's running around trying to cajole money from people and systematically lies about his problems.
LSD is not an automatic cure for depression, and definitely not a permanent one. That said it's had by far the best impact on mine.
LSD can help breaking bad patterns, but if someone has messed up eurotransmitter genetics, after two weeks they will return to the baseline :(
If you read reports of people after psychodelics, for many of them, after two weeks the symptoms return.
But yehah, people should research it more, and try it. Same with MDMA for fighting with traumas and anxiety.
If you read reports of people after psychodelics, for many of them, after two weeks the symptoms return.
But yehah, people should research it more, and try it. Same with MDMA for fighting with traumas and anxiety.
Depression is a symptom of sleep apnea, which is essentially sleep deprivation. In fact, the disease was only uncovered because psychiatrists at Stanford were noticing that all their depression patients were complaining about their sleep.
I always get euphoric during sleep deprivation as well, however even if it is a "cure" it is not sustainable.
I believe this effect during sleep deprivation is due to dopaminergic supersensitivity.
I believe this effect during sleep deprivation is due to dopaminergic supersensitivity.
Too much sleep can also cause depression. I would know I sometimes sleep during the day and when i wake up i get upset that i did accomplish the things i wanted to do during the day.
For my experience sleep deprivation increase aggressivity and nervousness.
I think it does help, but it can also be really detrimental as well.
No.
I'm sure it works great for some people and very poorly for others. I am disappointed by this headline though. While the story is interesting, 'can X CURE depression?!'is basically clickbaity bullshit, and if the NYT is serious about the value of journalism it should abandon clickbaiting as a strategy, for two reasons. One, it's because of shullshit headlines like this that people in general distrust the media in general. Two, people who suffer from depression are really suffering, and exploiting that (and the suffering of their caregivers) for an eye-grabbing headline that's basically bullshit is an unethical exploitation of their medical condition for profit.
I don't know why this makes you so mad, but the title definitely helped me be interested in the article and I ended up learning a few things about myself through the article.
The article's title (not the HN title) says: "the sleep
schedule is making you sick".
That is blatantly untrue. For a large part of the population it is not, and even the content of the article acknowledges that.
That is blatantly untrue. For a large part of the population it is not, and even the content of the article acknowledges that.
Yes, since this isn't the headline of the actual piece, shouldn't this be flagged?
In general, I'd say no. Make a note of the actual title, and contact a mod to update it (via the Contact link in the footer).
My experience is sleep deprivation increases depression
Me too. I tend to be more depressed when I don't sleep as well, although this could be correlation rather than causation.
For me as well. Sometimes I go through periods where I stay up too late, and I almost always end up feeling depressed after a few days of it.
Seems like the "cure" comes when you get the sleep deprivation from waking up early, not staying up late. Well it's a little more complicated since they start with a day of total deprivation, but the days after are focused on waking up early. Something I might try.
I think it's a matter of degree.
If you usually sleep 7 hours a night, and you're only getting 4, then you will feel tired grumpy and sad. But if you stay up all night, you may start to feel euphoric and energetic. Of course, you'll need a good long sleep the next day or so.
If you usually sleep 7 hours a night, and you're only getting 4, then you will feel tired grumpy and sad. But if you stay up all night, you may start to feel euphoric and energetic. Of course, you'll need a good long sleep the next day or so.
According to the article, this is the case for slightly over 50% of people. Hardly good enough odds to suggest that someone who doesn't experience this is just 'doing it wrong'.
Count me in. 1 month of insomnia and I'm googline for a safe way to go to heaven.
My GF has major depression, and slept 3-4 hours/night for months before she started taking sleeping pills.
Didn't seem to help with her depression in the slightest.
Didn't seem to help with her depression in the slightest.
To chime in among the other comments, most of which don't address the article either:
I was a night owl + stimulant fiend until I started working out in the morning. Decided to pull the trigger on a daily 9am Crossfit habit.
Now I'm too tired to stay awake past 11pm or so.
I was a night owl + stimulant fiend until I started working out in the morning. Decided to pull the trigger on a daily 9am Crossfit habit.
Now I'm too tired to stay awake past 11pm or so.
weed cures my depression. so why deprive myself of something I enjoy doing?
I thought this was interesting until I saw the author was a psychiatrist, and psychiatry has zero scientific validity. And his article is just referencing a bunch of tiny sample size studies of dubious merit.
Psychiatrists hold a medical doctorate, so unless you are claiming that medical science has no scientific validity I believe you are thinking of Psychology, which is an entirely different field.
I studied chemistry in college. That doesn't mean computer programming is a chemical discipline.
Psychiatrists go to medical school so they can prescribe medicine without killing a patient, not because medical school has a scientifically rigorous psychiatry curriculum. Remember that homosexuality was a psychiatric disease until recently.
Psychiatrists go to medical school so they can prescribe medicine without killing a patient, not because medical school has a scientifically rigorous psychiatry curriculum. Remember that homosexuality was a psychiatric disease until recently.
So, this may simply be because this differs between countries - I live in the US. Here, you do not study psychiatry in med school, it's something you study after you complete regular medical school. The rough path looks like:
- 4 years of undergrad, ideally with one major in Biology
- MCAT
- 4 years of general medical school
- 4 years of specialized psychiatry residency, usually at university hospital
Meaning, here in the US it's a medical discipline, but this may not be the case where you live.
You're absolutely right that there is a horrific history to the field of psychiatry - homosexuality indeed wasn't unlisted until a little over 40 years ago. However, this is rapidly changing with the advent of tools like PCR and Western Blotting, which allows psychiatry to research mental disease on the level of individual gene expression and proteins.
- 4 years of undergrad, ideally with one major in Biology
- MCAT
- 4 years of general medical school
- 4 years of specialized psychiatry residency, usually at university hospital
Meaning, here in the US it's a medical discipline, but this may not be the case where you live.
You're absolutely right that there is a horrific history to the field of psychiatry - homosexuality indeed wasn't unlisted until a little over 40 years ago. However, this is rapidly changing with the advent of tools like PCR and Western Blotting, which allows psychiatry to research mental disease on the level of individual gene expression and proteins.
Psychiatry does have some validity, but clinically and scientifically it's a disaster, basically just stamp collecting and black box experiments. If psychiatry took its own project truly seriously then it would merge with neurology but frankly I think most psychiatrists find neurology too intimidating and son't want to give up their existing social benefits so it's not happening.
I've always had very bad issues sleeping and waking "on time." In school this led to me regularly missing class and eventually dropping school entirely, and with regular work schedules I hardly ever got good sleep.
A little while ago, I made a commitment to myself to sleep when I was tired and to get up when I was rested. I eased into a schedule where every day I got up and went to bed about an hour later every day.
This has been my schedule for the past 9 months or so. I sleep 8 to 10 hours per night. Every night I go to bed about an hour later than the night before. My schedule rotates about 6-8 hours per week, and about 12-14 hours every two weeks, meaning I do a complete rotation about once a month.
During this time I've been vastly more productive and happy, I've had many fewer emotional swings toward anger or sadness, and I'm much more calm and less anxious in general.
My sleep schedule is easy to adhere to and self-corrects if I ever need to be up early/late or at a certain time. I even have an easier time making scheduled meeting times because I'm rested enough to be able to get up early when I need to.
Interestingly, I'm consistently well-rested and alert with my schedule despite having zero dependence on the natural sunlight cycle. I think this is because sunlight has a much smaller effect on me in the morning than computer light does in the evening.