Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?
875 comments
As a hiring manager, the things that stand out to me in your post:
- You said you quit a job at EA, quit a job at IBM, dropped out of college your freshman year. You may have valid reasons for leaving each of these, but you have to see this from the manager's perspective: You had 3 different great opportunities that all came to a dead end at the beginning of your career. You need an alternate narrative.
- You talk about applying to Google, Facebook, Airbnb, Palantir, and other companies known to be very competitive, yet the only real job experience you list in your post is low level customer support. Nothing wrong with aiming high, but you need to also be applying to jobs that are a logical next step in your career. It's extraordinarily difficult to jump from customer support to FAANG engineer, so have a backup plan.
- You spoofed e-mails to manipulate executives into meetings. This kind of thing sounds clever in movies or from anecdotes in the 90s or 2000s, but in this era everyone is on high alert for phishing attacks and security breaches. Read the room, and don't commit computer fraud during your application process. Big companies have systems in place to catch these things and you'll get blocked in short order.
- No mention of your network. Do you have any contacts or friends or acquaintances anywhere in the industry? Even people you knew briefly from school? People who you worked with in the past who moved up? Reach out and ask if they have any advice for your job search. Going forward, make a point to stay on good terms with the people around you. You can help each other as your careers progress.
- You said you quit a job at EA, quit a job at IBM, dropped out of college your freshman year. You may have valid reasons for leaving each of these, but you have to see this from the manager's perspective: You had 3 different great opportunities that all came to a dead end at the beginning of your career. You need an alternate narrative.
- You talk about applying to Google, Facebook, Airbnb, Palantir, and other companies known to be very competitive, yet the only real job experience you list in your post is low level customer support. Nothing wrong with aiming high, but you need to also be applying to jobs that are a logical next step in your career. It's extraordinarily difficult to jump from customer support to FAANG engineer, so have a backup plan.
- You spoofed e-mails to manipulate executives into meetings. This kind of thing sounds clever in movies or from anecdotes in the 90s or 2000s, but in this era everyone is on high alert for phishing attacks and security breaches. Read the room, and don't commit computer fraud during your application process. Big companies have systems in place to catch these things and you'll get blocked in short order.
- No mention of your network. Do you have any contacts or friends or acquaintances anywhere in the industry? Even people you knew briefly from school? People who you worked with in the past who moved up? Reach out and ask if they have any advice for your job search. Going forward, make a point to stay on good terms with the people around you. You can help each other as your careers progress.
I just want to say that this was a kind, detailed, and thoughtful response -- beneficial to the OP, no doubt, but also probably to others.
It was nice to be reminded that sometimes the Internet doesn't suck. Thanks for taking the time to write that reply.
It was nice to be reminded that sometimes the Internet doesn't suck. Thanks for taking the time to write that reply.
I can confirm this view in part from a dev perspective. Also I can empathize with the original problem. I've changed jobs more often than I should've and this is an often asked question in interviews. In fact, if I get asked this, there's a 80% likelihoood that it's going to be a "no". So to add some more points:
> You said you quit a job at EA, quit a job at IBM ...
Approach small startups, they judge much less. In fact a very early stage project (3-4 people) might be very happy to hire you because you seem very smart. The salary might be bad but will give you valuable in-depth job experience that will help you further down the road.
Also about the executive thing: I wouldn't approach executives because they usually hardly know what the company is doing. (They are there to talk with investors, external stakeholders...) Only exception small places. (< 30 ppl)
If I was you I would focus on a technology you like, maybe RoR or Python/Django and develop a small test project. If you feel confident enough even publish it on Github, but that's not a must. Just the muscle memory is good enough and that you can talk about it during interview. (Should be something mundane, like a Todo list or a news article search) And then just look for early stage startups and write them. Or perhaps NGOs, they are also much more open.
Once you've stayed at one relevant job for a year or two you can "double-down" on that and apply somewhere else for more... Most places don't care if you are ultra smart but rather that the usual tasks get done in an acceptable way. From past experience that's what managers are complimenting.
> You said you quit a job at EA, quit a job at IBM ...
Approach small startups, they judge much less. In fact a very early stage project (3-4 people) might be very happy to hire you because you seem very smart. The salary might be bad but will give you valuable in-depth job experience that will help you further down the road.
Also about the executive thing: I wouldn't approach executives because they usually hardly know what the company is doing. (They are there to talk with investors, external stakeholders...) Only exception small places. (< 30 ppl)
If I was you I would focus on a technology you like, maybe RoR or Python/Django and develop a small test project. If you feel confident enough even publish it on Github, but that's not a must. Just the muscle memory is good enough and that you can talk about it during interview. (Should be something mundane, like a Todo list or a news article search) And then just look for early stage startups and write them. Or perhaps NGOs, they are also much more open.
Once you've stayed at one relevant job for a year or two you can "double-down" on that and apply somewhere else for more... Most places don't care if you are ultra smart but rather that the usual tasks get done in an acceptable way. From past experience that's what managers are complimenting.
That's spot on from the advice.
I'll add that OP — Your biggest issue seems to be extremely high intelligence, paired with a lack of empathy and social functioning, which created a self-expectation of massive grandiosity. But you keep failing to deliver on it because you can't get your highly powered brain on the streets, leading in self-pity and depression. Not good, but salvageable.
How do I know? My life story reads basically like yours into my late twenties — multiple college dropout, extremely high ambitions, always failed.
The only difference is that I started that low level support job in a company small enough that somebody saw my talent and got me on the path to second level tech support and then engineering as I continued automating my job away.
Had to chuckle as I pissed off quite a lot of people higher up in that job early on myself, but fortunately had a few people reflecting me instead of firing me, which made me understand how I made other people look and feel by my actions.
The good news: Empathy is a learneable skill. Aim far lower in a smaller, young and growing (!) company with good potential — but especially with a great boss. Then work hard, SHUT UP your smartass mouth for a year and work your way up while learning what's holding you back with the help of a good coach/therapist. When you apply with the company, read everything you can about what they do and make it about them.
Stop trying to impress. For that year, just focus on staying super humble and in the background, learning how value is created for that company and then go on creating that value even if nobody asked you to. Just for a year. Up your ante slowly and only when you feel you have established personal trust and leverage.
Empathy a skill where intelligence won't support you but be in your way because of your natural tendency of you showing it off. That makes people feel dumb, and nobody likes to feel like that. Also, some actions like you skipping line management will make them feel they can't rely on you on top. You'll keep failing if people keep hating working with you.
Your goal is to find a great manager first and make them look great. And then talk about that. Be the solution guy, not the problem guy. Be the one who goes the extra mile to bring a small win home, not the one who makes the snarkiest comment.
You'll never be a "normal" person, but that's ok. Having a sharp profile comes with its own set of (dis)advantages. You can be high functioning if you surround yourself with capable people who know how to work with your weaknesses in order to leverage your strenghts.
Your job is finding them, as you'll fail alone.
I'll add that OP — Your biggest issue seems to be extremely high intelligence, paired with a lack of empathy and social functioning, which created a self-expectation of massive grandiosity. But you keep failing to deliver on it because you can't get your highly powered brain on the streets, leading in self-pity and depression. Not good, but salvageable.
How do I know? My life story reads basically like yours into my late twenties — multiple college dropout, extremely high ambitions, always failed.
The only difference is that I started that low level support job in a company small enough that somebody saw my talent and got me on the path to second level tech support and then engineering as I continued automating my job away.
Had to chuckle as I pissed off quite a lot of people higher up in that job early on myself, but fortunately had a few people reflecting me instead of firing me, which made me understand how I made other people look and feel by my actions.
The good news: Empathy is a learneable skill. Aim far lower in a smaller, young and growing (!) company with good potential — but especially with a great boss. Then work hard, SHUT UP your smartass mouth for a year and work your way up while learning what's holding you back with the help of a good coach/therapist. When you apply with the company, read everything you can about what they do and make it about them.
Stop trying to impress. For that year, just focus on staying super humble and in the background, learning how value is created for that company and then go on creating that value even if nobody asked you to. Just for a year. Up your ante slowly and only when you feel you have established personal trust and leverage.
Empathy a skill where intelligence won't support you but be in your way because of your natural tendency of you showing it off. That makes people feel dumb, and nobody likes to feel like that. Also, some actions like you skipping line management will make them feel they can't rely on you on top. You'll keep failing if people keep hating working with you.
Your goal is to find a great manager first and make them look great. And then talk about that. Be the solution guy, not the problem guy. Be the one who goes the extra mile to bring a small win home, not the one who makes the snarkiest comment.
You'll never be a "normal" person, but that's ok. Having a sharp profile comes with its own set of (dis)advantages. You can be high functioning if you surround yourself with capable people who know how to work with your weaknesses in order to leverage your strenghts.
Your job is finding them, as you'll fail alone.
Sorry, but I think you're reading way too much in the OP. Their account is compatible with their biggest issue being "extremelly high intelligence" coupled with a lack of empathy, but it's also compatible with ordinary intelligence coupled with some bad choices- and the chances are that the latter is the right explanation ("extremely high intelligence" should only be the case very, very rarely, by definition [1]).
I think you're also perhaps projecting a bit. You stopped (very) short of giving the OP a diagnosis of ASD ("high functioning"). Again, that's way, way too much to read into 1590 characters (not counting spaces) on an HN post.
Personally I think there's no way to answer OP with anything approaching good advice when going only by what they have posted. I understand that everyone will want to try anyway, but sometimes the best asnwer is to say "I don't know".
______________
[1] Funny aside. Suppose Alice has "extremely high intelligence" (EHI). Her EHI will make her aware of two facts: a) everyone seems to think they have EHI, or at least intelligence above the mean; b) only a tiny minority of those people can be right. The obvious corrolary is that Alice herself must be of average intelligence and only feel like she has EHI because that's a common cognitive bias of people with average intelligence. Therefore Alice will assume she has average intelligence and discount evidence to the contrary. In other words, people who have EHI will very rarely believe they have EHI, let alone say they do.
I think you're also perhaps projecting a bit. You stopped (very) short of giving the OP a diagnosis of ASD ("high functioning"). Again, that's way, way too much to read into 1590 characters (not counting spaces) on an HN post.
Personally I think there's no way to answer OP with anything approaching good advice when going only by what they have posted. I understand that everyone will want to try anyway, but sometimes the best asnwer is to say "I don't know".
______________
[1] Funny aside. Suppose Alice has "extremely high intelligence" (EHI). Her EHI will make her aware of two facts: a) everyone seems to think they have EHI, or at least intelligence above the mean; b) only a tiny minority of those people can be right. The obvious corrolary is that Alice herself must be of average intelligence and only feel like she has EHI because that's a common cognitive bias of people with average intelligence. Therefore Alice will assume she has average intelligence and discount evidence to the contrary. In other words, people who have EHI will very rarely believe they have EHI, let alone say they do.
I think with any kind of crowd-sourced-internet-therapy like the OP is currently receiving, you're right, no one answering is going to be able to accurately understand and relate to the OP. That being said, if 50 kind people like /u/endymi0n share their own parsing of the situation and offer some advice, maybe 1 in those 50 is actually the advice OP needed, and their life could be positively affected.
The alternative, I guess, is that everyone correctly realizes they can't understand the full context of OP's position, and no one gives OP any advice and they continue down the road they're currently on. Just my view :)
The alternative, I guess, is that everyone correctly realizes they can't understand the full context of OP's position, and no one gives OP any advice and they continue down the road they're currently on. Just my view :)
You are right that the poster you replied to makes many assumptions. But I think his post is still very valuable to others: I have seen smart people shoot themselves in the foot doing just what was described and that advice is a good thing to keep in mind. My 2c.
[deleted]
I don't disagree! But the way I've mostly seen capable people fail is by becoming afraid to push themselves beyond the limits of their innate capabilities, into the territory where people stop telling them how smart they are and every step forward is paid for with pain, Little-Mermaid style.
By contrast, people who have not learned to put so much value on their being "above average" don't have as much trouble pushing further into that painful territory because to them, everything is pain anyway.
That way I've seen people with little talent go further than, or at least catch up to others who have it in abdundance, through discipline and work. My formative experience in that respect is from a different life when I was studying for a modern drums degree.
By contrast, people who have not learned to put so much value on their being "above average" don't have as much trouble pushing further into that painful territory because to them, everything is pain anyway.
That way I've seen people with little talent go further than, or at least catch up to others who have it in abdundance, through discipline and work. My formative experience in that respect is from a different life when I was studying for a modern drums degree.
Please slow down with the "intelligence" narrative. Cognitive abilities are complex and multi-faceted. There's logical-mathematical and much more.
Even if they are reading too much into the OP, the advice is sound for anyone starting any job, especially at the start of their career with little on their resume.
About your aside, while all of that is true, the inverse isn't. Not everyone thinks everyone else has EHI. So if you have a lot of people telling you you have EHI, then you can feel confident in your own assessment of whether or not you have EHI.
That's an astute observation, but there is such a thing as flattery and compliments paid with an ulterior motive and it's not always easy to tell those apart from genuine recognition of a perceived positive trait.
For example, perhaps people are telling you you're smart because they like your er other assets. Or because they feel obliged to because you're their boss. Or because they know your parents. etc etc.
Bottom line, there's confounding factors that can throw the calculation way off.
For example, perhaps people are telling you you're smart because they like your er other assets. Or because they feel obliged to because you're their boss. Or because they know your parents. etc etc.
Bottom line, there's confounding factors that can throw the calculation way off.
> The obvious corrolary is that Alice herself must be of average intelligence
Would she also conclude that because some fruit in bowls is hollow plastic that there doesn't exist any real fruit in bowls?
Would she also conclude that because some fruit in bowls is hollow plastic that there doesn't exist any real fruit in bowls?
I have a similar story.
I learned at all early age the only thing appearing like the smartest guy in the room was good for was paining a target on your back. I also learned how to emulate empathy, it's not perfect, but it makes up for the natural broken/missing wiring in my head.
Also early in my career I talked my way out of several jobs, You might have the best ideas in the world, but if powers that be don't want to hear them, don't belabor the matter, give your suggestions and move on.
I started out too in customer support, 20 years later I'm making an engineers salary, with an engineering title, which isn't too bad for a drop out.
The best advice on jobs I have, take a bad shitty job that's good for your resume, work there till you have the book experience to work someplace else, rinse and repeat,
I learned at all early age the only thing appearing like the smartest guy in the room was good for was paining a target on your back. I also learned how to emulate empathy, it's not perfect, but it makes up for the natural broken/missing wiring in my head.
Also early in my career I talked my way out of several jobs, You might have the best ideas in the world, but if powers that be don't want to hear them, don't belabor the matter, give your suggestions and move on.
I started out too in customer support, 20 years later I'm making an engineers salary, with an engineering title, which isn't too bad for a drop out.
The best advice on jobs I have, take a bad shitty job that's good for your resume, work there till you have the book experience to work someplace else, rinse and repeat,
> I also learned how to emulate empathy,
Please don't. I know a guy who does the same. It comes across as utterly condescending.
Please don't. I know a guy who does the same. It comes across as utterly condescending.
You know that the people failing to do it, do it badly. You have no idea how many people in your life succesfully do it. (Survivorship bias)
Empathy is very much a learned skill. "Pretending" to care is a good way for me to get someone's attention and learn a bit of their story, and then find something to relate to.
hen I fail to do it correctly, I get immediate negative feedback. If I fail to do it at all, I get immediate negative feedback - its part of success for me.
I do genuinely care about people, I just cannot for the life of me understand why things upset others.
Failing to do it, makes me less employable, and less successful socially.
I do genuinely care about people, I just cannot for the life of me understand why things upset others.
Failing to do it, makes me less employable, and less successful socially.
I worked in 6 companies, in the first 3 years of my working life. I had a very difficult relationship with university in the late 90, where teachers were calling me to fix their linux, while they were still teaching me useless stuff.
Newsgroup, IRC, RFC were my main source of knowledge. Im mostly self taugh.
With great difficulties and many years after i got a bachelor degree, while i was also working and quitting jobs when realising my manager were as stupid as my univ teacher.
Back in my 20, things were simple and clear, you want security: run openbsd lame bastard. And stop calling me at 3am to fix an hacking job, while in fact it's just your bangalore team powering on an old server with same network IP than your fucking main website server.
Around 25, i was really disgusted by computer and IT Job, even tryed to recycle into soft medecine.
At this exact time, the best things in my life occured: My (first) girl friend cheated on me after 2 years of love story. It forces me to consider that maybe im not always right. I had a wonderfull journey into psychology, pick up artist technics, self-improvement, and started to practice Systema (Russian Martial Art) where indeed i learn empathy. Im mean, i didnt learn it, i was over sensitive and over empathic. I was the too good to be happy, and my angry burst were just expression of my frustration accumulated by peoples abusing me.
Instability was coming from that. Quitting was an easy solution, escaping stupidity and predator instead of facing them was my main strategy.
With training and helps from great peoples, i improved my social skills. I learn how to say NO. Around 31, i was desperate with my job interview, my professionnal experience was expressing instability and induced fear to potential recruiters.
I had to makeup my resume. And i got the opportunity to work as a lvl3 support team. This was the way i came back into business. With my improved self, i spend 3 years (the first time i worked that long in a position) taking care of big problem in a critical application.
This was an honey moon, first time ever peoples were thanking me for saving their ass and cleaning their shit (we talk hundreds of million in electronic payment industry). Im still friend with this specific manager who was able to see potential in me, 12 years after.
I started a consulting company. Im 42, married, father of three. Im happy.
Just remember: Humans are not computer.
Around 25, i was really disgusted by computer and IT Job, even tryed to recycle into soft medecine.
At this exact time, the best things in my life occured: My (first) girl friend cheated on me after 2 years of love story. It forces me to consider that maybe im not always right. I had a wonderfull journey into psychology, pick up artist technics, self-improvement, and started to practice Systema (Russian Martial Art) where indeed i learn empathy. Im mean, i didnt learn it, i was over sensitive and over empathic. I was the too good to be happy, and my angry burst were just expression of my frustration accumulated by peoples abusing me.
Instability was coming from that. Quitting was an easy solution, escaping stupidity and predator instead of facing them was my main strategy.
With training and helps from great peoples, i improved my social skills. I learn how to say NO. Around 31, i was desperate with my job interview, my professionnal experience was expressing instability and induced fear to potential recruiters.
I had to makeup my resume. And i got the opportunity to work as a lvl3 support team. This was the way i came back into business. With my improved self, i spend 3 years (the first time i worked that long in a position) taking care of big problem in a critical application.
This was an honey moon, first time ever peoples were thanking me for saving their ass and cleaning their shit (we talk hundreds of million in electronic payment industry). Im still friend with this specific manager who was able to see potential in me, 12 years after.
I started a consulting company. Im 42, married, father of three. Im happy.
Just remember: Humans are not computer.
I sometimes run into people who mistake the ability to Google well (a very teachable skill) with intelligence.
They often work in IT jobs, and for all their lives have heard how smart they were because of stereotypes around computers, science and nerds. Knowing how to use command line tools and put together a computer does not often equal extremely high intelligence.
They often work in IT jobs, and for all their lives have heard how smart they were because of stereotypes around computers, science and nerds. Knowing how to use command line tools and put together a computer does not often equal extremely high intelligence.
Job interview question: „What is your biggest weakness“ - „Extremely high intelligence paired with a lack of empathy“.
How does „extremely high intelligence“ lead to multiple college dropouts? For the OP it was a lack of money to pay US study fees. I doubt that several other points you mention (like „don’t be the one who makes the snarkiest comment“) are comparable to OPs experience.
How does „extremely high intelligence“ lead to multiple college dropouts? For the OP it was a lack of money to pay US study fees. I doubt that several other points you mention (like „don’t be the one who makes the snarkiest comment“) are comparable to OPs experience.
Some solid advice. Especially the part about having a good boss. Only 1 in 4 fits that bill in my experience, and landing a job with one makes all the difference for your career.
Also, being the solution guy/girl is good advice.
Once you have that experience you know what to look for in your career. Keep in touch with the good managers and colleagues, as that network is worth gold.
Also, being the solution guy/girl is good advice.
Once you have that experience you know what to look for in your career. Keep in touch with the good managers and colleagues, as that network is worth gold.
I too suffer from an extremely high intelligence.
I would have replaced intelligence and ambition with confidence. I think it reads better. Theres no way we can measure the intelligence of people by the fact they dropped out of college or got a job and then left it. Theres no positive signals here, just negative or neutral.
I suspect people call it intelligence when they see themselves in the behaviour. Since we all think we're above average https://priceonomics.com/why-do-we-all-think-were-above-aver...
I suspect people call it intelligence when they see themselves in the behaviour. Since we all think we're above average https://priceonomics.com/why-do-we-all-think-were-above-aver...
[deleted]
>>You said you quit a job at EA, quit a job at IBM, dropped out of college your freshman year. You may have valid reasons for leaving each of these, but you have to see this from the manager's perspective: You had 3 different great opportunities that all came to a dead end at the beginning of your career. You need an alternate narrative.
Things like this are very important. Job hopping is a giant red flag for lots of companies.
Nobody wants to hire an employee whose replacement they have to hire under an year.
Things like this are very important. Job hopping is a giant red flag for lots of companies.
Nobody wants to hire an employee whose replacement they have to hire under an year.
> Job hopping is a giant red flag for lots of companies
I noticed that after a year or 2 I get bored because things become a bit too routine. After the third job I decided to just become a midlancer (in a few years want to go full freelance) so I can hop whenever I hit that wall.
I noticed that after a year or 2 I get bored because things become a bit too routine. After the third job I decided to just become a midlancer (in a few years want to go full freelance) so I can hop whenever I hit that wall.
I don't think the conventional wisdom on job hopping is current anymore. It used to be a red flag, and might still be for certain kinds of jobs, but in tech it's quite common and standard to move on after 2-3 years. It would surprise me if interviewers at FAANGs thought 2-3 year tenures at their kind of companies interpreted that as "job hopping."
It’s not job hopping that’s the problem. It’s unemployment. Companies actually like job hoppers because they learn more, and actually can find those jobs, hence they hop. Job hopping without jobs (gaps) is unattractive but that would be unemployment not job hopping, since the dude is unemployed.
I’m saying this only for people who are in utter shit jobs and have the talent to find another one, but are afraid to be classified a job hopper.
I’m saying this only for people who are in utter shit jobs and have the talent to find another one, but are afraid to be classified a job hopper.
If someone never stayed more than a year at a job that's a pretty major red flag.
Most hires will take a year to get productive (where they produce more value for the company than they cost).
I would never hire someone if I expected them to leave in a few months (except an intern).
There are exceptions. An experienced consultant may be hired only for short, specific projects. But if you're struggling to get hired, you don't fall in that category.
Most hires will take a year to get productive (where they produce more value for the company than they cost).
I would never hire someone if I expected them to leave in a few months (except an intern).
There are exceptions. An experienced consultant may be hired only for short, specific projects. But if you're struggling to get hired, you don't fall in that category.
It depends how many years they've got. It also depends what your definition of job hopping is. Some people say anything less than 1 to 2 years. https://www.flexjobs.com/blog/post/job-hopping-v2/ I definitely wouldn't be moving every 3 months, since the interview process takes time, and picking the right company is difficult.
Anyway, I was productive within a week at my current company. Have you heard of companies trying to reduce the time to impact (or git commit) of an employee, some are proud that their employees commit go into production on their first day. If it takes one year to make back the money it costs to pay them, that sounds like we should improve that process or get more value from developers, rather than expect people to stay for longer to earn back their cost.
This is clearly a tough topic for some people on HN. I would recommend you just do some interviews (this is not treason), and see what offers you get (this is fair, you might get a nice increase). Then you'll realize its not a big deal for companies (especially the one thats making the hire), it might be bigger in your head and in your existing company.
Anyway, I was productive within a week at my current company. Have you heard of companies trying to reduce the time to impact (or git commit) of an employee, some are proud that their employees commit go into production on their first day. If it takes one year to make back the money it costs to pay them, that sounds like we should improve that process or get more value from developers, rather than expect people to stay for longer to earn back their cost.
This is clearly a tough topic for some people on HN. I would recommend you just do some interviews (this is not treason), and see what offers you get (this is fair, you might get a nice increase). Then you'll realize its not a big deal for companies (especially the one thats making the hire), it might be bigger in your head and in your existing company.
> Most hires will take a year to get productive (where they produce more value for the company than they cost).
I never fully understood this. In pretty much any company I worked, if by the end of the month you weren't productive (almost fully independent) you would get the boot. Do companies really expect for new employees to take a year to be consistently productive? In startup land, that is like 2-3 product launches, how the hell companies find the money for this?
I never fully understood this. In pretty much any company I worked, if by the end of the month you weren't productive (almost fully independent) you would get the boot. Do companies really expect for new employees to take a year to be consistently productive? In startup land, that is like 2-3 product launches, how the hell companies find the money for this?
It is not common, but "a year to value" is not rare either. Some projects (SW/HW interfaces; many multidisciplinary efforts, like biomedical software) take a while to fully get into.
I am not talking about someone not doing anything useful -- that should come quickly. But it may take several months or a year for them to start creating more value than their salary+benefits+other costs. And as long as the new hire shows progress to this I am perfectly OK if the process takes a year. My 2c.
I am not talking about someone not doing anything useful -- that should come quickly. But it may take several months or a year for them to start creating more value than their salary+benefits+other costs. And as long as the new hire shows progress to this I am perfectly OK if the process takes a year. My 2c.
IBM's apprenticeship program is one year long. I suspect the reason why is because they've been around long enough to know the truth of this.
I am talking from experience, where I 'job hopped' to get better jobs which treat me better, fit me better, pay me more, have smarter colleagues and better systems (aka. more agile not just talking about it), and benefits, healthcare. I did my research (mainly getting the confidence from articles online), whilst hearing too often the idea people have in their heads: I should stay a longer before considering moving because it looks bad on the resume. What you hear from everyone/ common wisdom can be a justification for themselves not taking a risky and uncomfortable move.
Job hopping is having a track record of optimising for your own experience at the expense of your employers. Of course that's going to look bad, unless you can explain why this time is different.
> Companies actually like job hoppers
I would encourage you to rethink this idea.
I would encourage you to rethink this idea.
> yet the only real job experience you list in your post is low level customer support
Devs are in the lucky position that you can obtain some aspects of 'real job experience' outside of a job. Create a project, or contribute to open source project in an area that interests you - it will hone your skills and give something concrete on your resume.
[edit] And make the projects very directed to the jobs you want to get, if security interests you try some hacker bounties - even documenting how you looked for exploits in a blog may be of use.
Devs are in the lucky position that you can obtain some aspects of 'real job experience' outside of a job. Create a project, or contribute to open source project in an area that interests you - it will hone your skills and give something concrete on your resume.
[edit] And make the projects very directed to the jobs you want to get, if security interests you try some hacker bounties - even documenting how you looked for exploits in a blog may be of use.
This. You wouldn't believe how much visibility contributing to known open source projects gives you. And you train your communication and collaboration skills (PRs/reviews) in addition to the usual developer chops. Good luck!
He also mentions a couple of times that he was ghosted after interviews, even at Home Depot. So I would add also add to this already great list: role-play interviews with friends and get their feedback on how you present yourself (dress, tone of voice, behavior, etc.) and what kind of blunders you make.
> You spoofed emails to manipulate executives into meetings.
A guy got hired at Google once because he spoofed an email from Larry to Sergey using an unknown DKIM hack he discovered. The OP said numbers so I'm assuming he spoofed caller id. That's kind of like stealing the silverware as far as hacks go. So it doesn't surprise me that would come across poorly.
A guy got hired at Google once because he spoofed an email from Larry to Sergey using an unknown DKIM hack he discovered. The OP said numbers so I'm assuming he spoofed caller id. That's kind of like stealing the silverware as far as hacks go. So it doesn't surprise me that would come across poorly.
I don’t think that person got hired or even applied.
I don't necessarily agree regarding FAANG. Once someone gets an interview it doesn't matter much what their previous work experience is.
Not only does that make no sense in the context of hiring programmers, it doesn't make sense for hiring anyone. Nailing interviews is about impressing someone first and foremost. It's kind of hard to impress when you don't have prior experience to look to.
While I agree with you, my experience in hiring in this industry for the last few years has been to agree with the parent comment. Once you land an interview, I don't think any of my interviewers even looked at my resume, or cared what it might have said. Most companies, at that point, were 100% and solely interested in my ability to answer leetcode questions. The better companies asked more meaningful technical questions. None asked me about experience, career, projects, skills, etc. And yes, it is a bad hiring practice.
When I was a hiring manager, I specifically designed an interview process that procured me candidates that were great devs that didn't do well in leetcode style interviews, and as a result was able to hire a much better team than I should have been able to at my budget level. We did this, by doing no-brainer things like, actually reading the resumes.
But good hiring practices are hard to scale. Reading a resume or a person is difficult to teach. But a minimally competent leetcode style interview session can be run with some success by most engineers, so it scales. Which means it worked great for some quickly growing tech companies with large amounts of cash and little need to filter questionable resume lists (usually because their name brands guaranteed high level quality applicants). This then became a fad as every company copied the name brand engineering company without wondering if their hiring process had the same constraints as name-brand co, and is now what the industry thinks is 'the one true way.;
When I was a hiring manager, I specifically designed an interview process that procured me candidates that were great devs that didn't do well in leetcode style interviews, and as a result was able to hire a much better team than I should have been able to at my budget level. We did this, by doing no-brainer things like, actually reading the resumes.
But good hiring practices are hard to scale. Reading a resume or a person is difficult to teach. But a minimally competent leetcode style interview session can be run with some success by most engineers, so it scales. Which means it worked great for some quickly growing tech companies with large amounts of cash and little need to filter questionable resume lists (usually because their name brands guaranteed high level quality applicants). This then became a fad as every company copied the name brand engineering company without wondering if their hiring process had the same constraints as name-brand co, and is now what the industry thinks is 'the one true way.;
I was asked about my previous internship work experience from my resume by Point72, Salesforce, Google, Addepar, Okta, Iterable, Visa, Veritas from my resume during my interviews.
I work at Google (the only FAANG company in your list). We would ask about it, but it's not a significant deciding factor.
It might be a deciding factor if you get an interview at all, which team you are interviewing with and for which level. Those decisions are made by recruiters, not interviewers or hiring committees.
It might be a deciding factor if you get an interview at all, which team you are interviewing with and for which level. Those decisions are made by recruiters, not interviewers or hiring committees.
And a recruiter is not really looking at your resume as anything other than a wordlist with which to shotgun applicants that might earn him/her commission into the process. And then the engineering team just jumps to leetcode. What's so easy to go missing here is the step where the person is interviewed, as a person, by someone who is not a recruiter or equivalent HR screener, and is technically skilled enough to understand the resume. Ya know, in a word, a good manager.
I don't think internal recruiters (what I believe the GP was referring to) get paid a commission.
depends on firms and their work contracts and definition of "internal recruiters"
I definitely read resumes (and ask about it). While it's not the sole criteria for hiring/not hiring, I think it says a lot about the candidate.
They look at the resume. If you are not just OK, then your interview may fix your CV. If you are not the best candidate, just barely OK, your bad CV can fuel worries.
People who I have seen hiring definitely read resume prior interview. They did not necessary asked about it directly.
It is not about what your previous job title was, but if you actually have the chops to do the new job.
There are many tricks you can use to get an interview. However nothing abut OPs past shows that he can actually be a productive programmer.
>Dev job at IBM
No details what he did or for how long. I've been in teams with fresh juniors who are amazing. They bring in new knowledge and new perspectives and over all crush the job. Then I've seen juniors who "work" on something for weeks and weeks and when we start for them to demo how far they are we find out that they haven't been able to produce anything working.
>QA at EA
While with normal software I'd say this requires at least scripting skills with games I don't know if that is necessarily true and again probably not a good skill set for getting hired as dev in FAANG
>Cybersecurity team at college
I immediately assume this is some kind of CTF team, which might teach you to use some tools, but again I've seen people in college just "pass through" without really learning anything
If the job OP could do and do well was Amazon help desk then he should aim somewhere between FAANG dev and that position and probably erring on the side of the help desk. The new job will teach them more and in a year or two they can apply for a higher position.
There are many tricks you can use to get an interview. However nothing abut OPs past shows that he can actually be a productive programmer.
>Dev job at IBM
No details what he did or for how long. I've been in teams with fresh juniors who are amazing. They bring in new knowledge and new perspectives and over all crush the job. Then I've seen juniors who "work" on something for weeks and weeks and when we start for them to demo how far they are we find out that they haven't been able to produce anything working.
>QA at EA
While with normal software I'd say this requires at least scripting skills with games I don't know if that is necessarily true and again probably not a good skill set for getting hired as dev in FAANG
>Cybersecurity team at college
I immediately assume this is some kind of CTF team, which might teach you to use some tools, but again I've seen people in college just "pass through" without really learning anything
If the job OP could do and do well was Amazon help desk then he should aim somewhere between FAANG dev and that position and probably erring on the side of the help desk. The new job will teach them more and in a year or two they can apply for a higher position.
I guess the person aimed for FAANG precisely because they interview skills that are learnable quickly (leetcode) and care less about skill that requires you to grow organically by working on real products
Given this persons experience level and their predilection to "spoofing" phone numbers and related activity - it's entirely plausible that they lied on the resume to get the interview. Or embellished enough detail on their roles to make them pass the resume screening.
If this is the case the gap in skill required to pass a FAANG interview may be too great to overcome in a reasonable timeframe.
Hustle culture pushes the unqualified person changing their life by taking a big risk. But most of the "success" examples are people moving into high turnover, metric driven, entry level positions such as investment advisors performing cold calls, entry level b2b sales etc.
If this is the case the gap in skill required to pass a FAANG interview may be too great to overcome in a reasonable timeframe.
Hustle culture pushes the unqualified person changing their life by taking a big risk. But most of the "success" examples are people moving into high turnover, metric driven, entry level positions such as investment advisors performing cold calls, entry level b2b sales etc.
I interviewed at Amazon.
Aced all questions, except the one that ALL of their inverviewers asked, that was how I had shown leadership solving a problem in a team situation in my past jobs.
See, in all my past jobs, I never been in a large team.
Didn't pass the interview, they have a policy to not tell you why but I can guess why...
Aced all questions, except the one that ALL of their inverviewers asked, that was how I had shown leadership solving a problem in a team situation in my past jobs.
See, in all my past jobs, I never been in a large team.
Didn't pass the interview, they have a policy to not tell you why but I can guess why...
They weren't expecting you to be a manager, team lead, or to have worked in a big team.
They just wanted you to have shown some modicum amount of leadership skill. For a normal position, this doesn't mean that you have to act like a CEO. A simple case where you took the lead to solve some issue and maybe guided a colleague or even a customer would have sufficed.
They just wanted you to have shown some modicum amount of leadership skill. For a normal position, this doesn't mean that you have to act like a CEO. A simple case where you took the lead to solve some issue and maybe guided a colleague or even a customer would have sufficed.
> I interviewed at Amazon. Aced all questions, (...)
To me that raises a flag on how you may not have a good grasp on what really happened in your interview. You don't ace questions in the onsite interview at Amazon. You are there to provide data for the interviewers to decide if you're a valid candidate. If you were rejected then the data your interviewers collected on you led them to that decision.
Source: I know a few people who went as far as onsite interviews at Amazon. Some got in, others didn't. None of the guys who were left out were cut because of their hard skills.
To me that raises a flag on how you may not have a good grasp on what really happened in your interview. You don't ace questions in the onsite interview at Amazon. You are there to provide data for the interviewers to decide if you're a valid candidate. If you were rejected then the data your interviewers collected on you led them to that decision.
Source: I know a few people who went as far as onsite interviews at Amazon. Some got in, others didn't. None of the guys who were left out were cut because of their hard skills.
I agree. If OP can consistently get interviews at FAANGs, then that’s all that’s needed for the job.
It sounds to me like it is either a knowledge gap of which they may be unaware, or a personality issue. When hiring in the past, I looked for thoughtful, but honest answers-- even if the answer was "I don't know." Someone talking around the question or bullshitting me resulted in a no. Also, interviewers may be sensing some quality which hint that the interviewee would make existing employees' jobs harder. Dunno if this is happening, but things like talking bad about previous jobs, management, etc can turn folks off. Also, if one implies many previous jobs were problems the interviewer may assume that the employee was the issue instead.
I think personality issues are kind of overstated for interviews. Just about every industry has its fair share of jerks and sociopaths that throw people under the bus. Regardless, they have jobs, and almost all of them had to pass interviews to get into their respective companies. These are the workers that set the lower bar for entry into a job, and in the "right" companies, your personality would be passable by those standards to get hired.
But what did he interview for? There's a big difference between getting a customer support interview at Google and getting an engineering interview. He doesn't really say what he interviewed for.
Or for that matter, what kind of job he's looking for and what his skills are other than QA @ EA (was he writing automation, or doing gameplay testing?), an 18 year old developer (intern?) at IBM, and customer service at Amazon. And maybe that's part of the problem -- hiring managers don't know what he wants to do. (which is easier to get away with at a small company since you'll do a bit of everything, but larger companies are generally looking for someone to fill a specific role)
If he's consistently getting first interviews but not getting past that, then maybe his resume sounds better than his actual skill level.
Or for that matter, what kind of job he's looking for and what his skills are other than QA @ EA (was he writing automation, or doing gameplay testing?), an 18 year old developer (intern?) at IBM, and customer service at Amazon. And maybe that's part of the problem -- hiring managers don't know what he wants to do. (which is easier to get away with at a small company since you'll do a bit of everything, but larger companies are generally looking for someone to fill a specific role)
If he's consistently getting first interviews but not getting past that, then maybe his resume sounds better than his actual skill level.
To make this even more explicit: if OP can get interviews, then the resume (and the "on paper" job record) is clearly not an issue. The issue is interview technique, possibly the verbal description of the job history, but possibly something else (technical or social).
I second other comments elsewhere in the threads here to get a candid friend to help with interview practice.
I second other comments elsewhere in the threads here to get a candid friend to help with interview practice.
There's the caveat on education.
From the other side of the fence, if a candidate has an atypical resume, the best course of action will be to interview to check their level.
You can't ignore the possibility of them being good autodidacts, but it will also lead to a very quick rejection if they're below those high expectations. It creates a cycle of quick interviews at prestigious places and quick rejections.
From the other side of the fence, if a candidate has an atypical resume, the best course of action will be to interview to check their level.
You can't ignore the possibility of them being good autodidacts, but it will also lead to a very quick rejection if they're below those high expectations. It creates a cycle of quick interviews at prestigious places and quick rejections.
Presumably lack of previous work experience would be visible on the resume and the any competent company would filter people out before interview if that is important to them.
Once you have an interview, presumably its something that they learned from it that gets you rejected.
Once you have an interview, presumably its something that they learned from it that gets you rejected.
From reading the rest of the posts, I don’t see how OP could pass the standard FAANG behavioral STAR interview loops.
> FAANG
Viz. Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Netflix, and Google.
I had to look it up (I'm not from around here).
Viz. Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Netflix, and Google.
I had to look it up (I'm not from around here).
[deleted]
I think OP could try to join a startup, build some skills and network. He/she will eventually be able to get into a FAANG company.
The past doesn't matter. Building skills could be enough
The past doesn't matter. Building skills could be enough
Has OP tried some sort of personality coaching or something?
I'm also unemployed. Why should the past speak for me? Shouldn't my github account be enough?
Edit: reason for my down vote? I think my argument is fair, it is wrong to look into the candidate's past. Just look at their skills and nothing else
Edit 2: down voting without a reason forces me to assume the decision was not rational and thus invalid.
Edit: reason for my down vote? I think my argument is fair, it is wrong to look into the candidate's past. Just look at their skills and nothing else
Edit 2: down voting without a reason forces me to assume the decision was not rational and thus invalid.
First, OP:
STOP CALLING YOURSELF UNHIREABLE.
STOP WITH THE SELF-PITY--
Why?
You can't simultaneously focus on two things: such as focusing pitying yourself while simultaneously focusing on building & completing your strategy.
_____________________
WHATS THAT YOU SAY OP?!, you say you want to CONQUER THE ROMAN EMPIRE, but you only have a dozen pals WITH NERF GUNS? Yeah, guess how that'll work out :P Doesn't sound like a reasonable strategy, does it?
Yes, you failed because YOU LACKED A REASONABLE STRATEGY.
ANYONE WILL FAIL when they LACK A REASONABLE STRATEGY REGARDING ANYTHING in life, that should be obvious.
The solution? Develop a reasonable strategy and fulfill the work involved in the strategy.
______________________________________
Now for the rest of my intended comment:
This.
PragmaticPulp is speaking about STRATEGY.
You need a reasonable strategy, OP.
Check out my recent comments for my lengthier reply of advice, but here I'll summarize:
* Make small pivots. Don't try to jump to the top, as Pragmatic mentions
* Market yourself. Want to be a programmer? Show the world you're a programmer then! How? You need to build an open source project with in-demand programming languages & frameworks. You need a Web Portfolio to show off your projects. A LinkedIn presence. And, put your resume up on job sites. This is basic marketing strategy, OP.
Want a dev job? Well, how do you show the world you're a dev? Again, click my name to read my recent replies if you can't find 'em here on the first page of 300+ replies.
So, focus on crafting your strategy and then completing the strategy.
Keep your head up. Stay positive. Find motivational music & speeches on spotify & youtube-- that helped me get through 4 months of building my full stack app (no one paid me to make it, I simply built it b/c I knew I needed to show the world I had the skills)
STOP CALLING YOURSELF UNHIREABLE.
STOP WITH THE SELF-PITY--
Why?
You can't simultaneously focus on two things: such as focusing pitying yourself while simultaneously focusing on building & completing your strategy.
_____________________
WHATS THAT YOU SAY OP?!, you say you want to CONQUER THE ROMAN EMPIRE, but you only have a dozen pals WITH NERF GUNS? Yeah, guess how that'll work out :P Doesn't sound like a reasonable strategy, does it?
Yes, you failed because YOU LACKED A REASONABLE STRATEGY.
ANYONE WILL FAIL when they LACK A REASONABLE STRATEGY REGARDING ANYTHING in life, that should be obvious.
The solution? Develop a reasonable strategy and fulfill the work involved in the strategy.
______________________________________
Now for the rest of my intended comment:
This.
PragmaticPulp is speaking about STRATEGY.
You need a reasonable strategy, OP.
Check out my recent comments for my lengthier reply of advice, but here I'll summarize:
* Make small pivots. Don't try to jump to the top, as Pragmatic mentions
* Market yourself. Want to be a programmer? Show the world you're a programmer then! How? You need to build an open source project with in-demand programming languages & frameworks. You need a Web Portfolio to show off your projects. A LinkedIn presence. And, put your resume up on job sites. This is basic marketing strategy, OP.
Want a dev job? Well, how do you show the world you're a dev? Again, click my name to read my recent replies if you can't find 'em here on the first page of 300+ replies.
So, focus on crafting your strategy and then completing the strategy.
Keep your head up. Stay positive. Find motivational music & speeches on spotify & youtube-- that helped me get through 4 months of building my full stack app (no one paid me to make it, I simply built it b/c I knew I needed to show the world I had the skills)
You definitely came in from Reddit, that's for sure.
LOL do I sound liberal?
What part of my comment do you dislike?
To be fair, I don't expect everyone on HN to appreciate my perspective. The tech world seems to be majority snowflake, or pretend snowflake (go along to get along, in that case).
I'm not a politically correct type of person-- I tell people what I actually think and prefer brutal honesty to sugar coated messaging.
What part of my comment do you dislike?
To be fair, I don't expect everyone on HN to appreciate my perspective. The tech world seems to be majority snowflake, or pretend snowflake (go along to get along, in that case).
I'm not a politically correct type of person-- I tell people what I actually think and prefer brutal honesty to sugar coated messaging.
This kind of safe advice isn't very helpful for someone who is hustling IMO. Maybe it is useful for someone who's going to become a principal engineer at a large corporate. The parent commenter would be well suited to work at a startup. Unfortunately, startups have also been infected by the corporate virus. In a country that's stagnating, such risk averse behavior makes sense, because there is no reward for taking on risks.
A teenage boy asked the master "How do I compose a symphony?"
The master said "You're too young, you need to start with more modest projects."
"But master" said the boy "you first composed a symphony when you were half my age!"
"Yes, but I didn't ask anyone how."
---
What I mean by this is that "hustling" is something of a unique, rare, or hacking like thing. You can't ask people how to do it, because if they could tell you then everyone would do it and it wouldn't work. I don't mean that like people are keeping a secret, but more like hustling means going through a dynamic and unexpected route and it's not something people can easily reduce to instructions.
The master said "You're too young, you need to start with more modest projects."
"But master" said the boy "you first composed a symphony when you were half my age!"
"Yes, but I didn't ask anyone how."
---
What I mean by this is that "hustling" is something of a unique, rare, or hacking like thing. You can't ask people how to do it, because if they could tell you then everyone would do it and it wouldn't work. I don't mean that like people are keeping a secret, but more like hustling means going through a dynamic and unexpected route and it's not something people can easily reduce to instructions.
What the US and specially the tech industry call "hustling" is bullshit sprinkled with self-delusion. For every successful history of someone hustling there's a thousand more of someone hustling just as much and not getting anywhere, and usually the ones being successful are getting there with generous help from unseen forces (network, relatives, etc).
We need to stop idolizing hustling. Getting shit done without pretending it's a gambler's game will get you far.
We need to stop idolizing hustling. Getting shit done without pretending it's a gambler's game will get you far.
I think something like: You will never be a billionaire without hustling. You will likely never be a billionaire with hustling. Patient and hard work over a long period is the most consistent route to success.
I always thought that creating and maintaining a network was part of the hustle. And to a certain (unhealthy) extent, relationships.
Creating an maintaining a network of people in your field is extremely important for your career, especially your later career.
I like to say. At a job you get compensated three ways. Money, experience, and contacts. There are more ways but those are the top three.
I like to say. At a job you get compensated three ways. Money, experience, and contacts. There are more ways but those are the top three.
I don't think I can recall any cases in my professional history as a software developer of anyone landing a dev job due to "hustle". Unless we are using some shallow definition of it that's "Taught self how to code, passed the same technical interview as everyone else"
> You can't ask people how to do it, because if they could tell you then everyone would do it and it wouldn't work
Coding-camps?
Coding-camps?
A coding camp is the opposite of hustling. It's called "bootcamp" for a reason - it's there to impose some structure for those who need it.
Also bootcamp is very overhyped. There's some great people that come out of them, but I think mainly the hype is the fact that college is overrated (this is a cliche opinion I know) so bootcamps are there to try to exploit some of the delta that the myopic focus on college degrees creates. But many boot camps are super myopic in their own ways.
Also bootcamp is very overhyped. There's some great people that come out of them, but I think mainly the hype is the fact that college is overrated (this is a cliche opinion I know) so bootcamps are there to try to exploit some of the delta that the myopic focus on college degrees creates. But many boot camps are super myopic in their own ways.
> A coding camp is the opposite of hustling
Right on. I'm self taught before bootcamps were a thing. I learned by doing by launching a bunch of startup prototypes. Then I ran out of money so I started interviewing, went 1 for 1 and got a good 6 figure Rails job at a big corporation (skipping junior level), all with less than 1 year experience.
Many people getting into coding I talk to think this path is too hard and that a bootcamp somehow looks good on a resume and is therefore safe.
The same arguments can be made for startup accelerators. You really don't need one if you're a hustler who can build businesses. Thus they also attract some percentage of people who want a "safe" approach for their resume.
Right on. I'm self taught before bootcamps were a thing. I learned by doing by launching a bunch of startup prototypes. Then I ran out of money so I started interviewing, went 1 for 1 and got a good 6 figure Rails job at a big corporation (skipping junior level), all with less than 1 year experience.
Many people getting into coding I talk to think this path is too hard and that a bootcamp somehow looks good on a resume and is therefore safe.
The same arguments can be made for startup accelerators. You really don't need one if you're a hustler who can build businesses. Thus they also attract some percentage of people who want a "safe" approach for their resume.
I think a good coding camp is a plausible route to an entry level dev position. I know a Google dev who got there via a coding camp.
I wouldn't describe it as a hack or hustle though. It's basically learn the skills required, demonstrate your knowledge, then interview and get a matching job.
I wouldn't describe it as a hack or hustle though. It's basically learn the skills required, demonstrate your knowledge, then interview and get a matching job.
Good reply but worth considering this phenomena might actually be due to teaching being an orthogonal skill. The master is a master because of that which they produce: there’s usually no requirement to be able to teach.
That's weird, where did you get the sense that op is "hustling" (whatever that means)? They spend half their post listing big companies they are trying to get jobs at.
[deleted]
> This kind of safe advice isn't very helpful for someone who is hustling IMO.
Well are they hustling or looking for steady employment in tech?
Well are they hustling or looking for steady employment in tech?
Have you tried asking any of the jobs that rejected you're getting rejected?
Honestly, just a guess, you're probably giving off bad interpersonal vibes/people don't really like talking to you. Half of interviewing is just being very personable/being able to talk comfortably with other people. Generally in this space (this space meaning those interested in tech/startups/etc) sometimes people struggle in this area but really shine in tech. I would encourage you to spend some time reflecting on your interpersonal skills.
Some other red-ish flags from your post - you kinda seem like you might struggle just doing exactly what you're asked to do. Bringing up how frequently you quit things for various reasons or finding issues and bringing them up with your superiors' superiors, spoofing numbers to get in touch with very very senior people. Lots of lower-tiered jobs literally just need people to show up and do what they're asked. A part of getting a "first" or "entry level" job is accepting you're there mostly to learn, not to teach/move outside of your lane. The fact that you would even bring up Bill Landreth seems like you might not necessarily see yourself how the rest of the world sees you.
I'm not trying to offend you - I really hope you can line something up soon. I apologize if this feedback seems cold - I think reflecting on things like this can be hard because you have to face things about yourself you may disagree with or not realize. Unfortunately interviewing is such a biased game, you kind of have to play your opponent (meaning, be the person they want, not the person you are).
Happy to chat through any of this stuff if you have questions. Wish you all the best.
Honestly, just a guess, you're probably giving off bad interpersonal vibes/people don't really like talking to you. Half of interviewing is just being very personable/being able to talk comfortably with other people. Generally in this space (this space meaning those interested in tech/startups/etc) sometimes people struggle in this area but really shine in tech. I would encourage you to spend some time reflecting on your interpersonal skills.
Some other red-ish flags from your post - you kinda seem like you might struggle just doing exactly what you're asked to do. Bringing up how frequently you quit things for various reasons or finding issues and bringing them up with your superiors' superiors, spoofing numbers to get in touch with very very senior people. Lots of lower-tiered jobs literally just need people to show up and do what they're asked. A part of getting a "first" or "entry level" job is accepting you're there mostly to learn, not to teach/move outside of your lane. The fact that you would even bring up Bill Landreth seems like you might not necessarily see yourself how the rest of the world sees you.
I'm not trying to offend you - I really hope you can line something up soon. I apologize if this feedback seems cold - I think reflecting on things like this can be hard because you have to face things about yourself you may disagree with or not realize. Unfortunately interviewing is such a biased game, you kind of have to play your opponent (meaning, be the person they want, not the person you are).
Happy to chat through any of this stuff if you have questions. Wish you all the best.
>you kinda seem like you might struggle just doing exactly what you're asked to do. Bringing up how frequently you quit things for various reasons or finding issues and bringing them up with your superiors' superiors
Yes, this is what stood out for me. OP sounds malcontented, and habitually dissatisfied with his role, and makes antisocial decisions (like spoofing numbers - which is not just dishonest but shows contempt for the target) that show poor judgement. He compounds the poor judgement by bragging about the previous poor judgement.
The antisocial stuff is implicit in what he doesn't mention: from his descriptions, his workplaces are hollow boxes with some juicy targets (execs) in them and nothing else. Where are the people? There aren't any because at some level they don't exist for the OP. This is, of course, a hallmark trait of narcissism.
The good news (great news, really), is that NPD is one of the most treatable of personality disorders if the person decides they want treatment. The reason? The narcissist is confident in their ability, and confidence helps when you want to shape your own behavior.
The caveat to all this being that free advice is worth what you paid for it, even less if given by a stranger on the internet. But, FWIW, it's my honest take. If it ends up being accurate (if you look up the disorder) and you get help, I'd love to know if this post help you. (See, I'm a little NPD too! ;)
Yes, this is what stood out for me. OP sounds malcontented, and habitually dissatisfied with his role, and makes antisocial decisions (like spoofing numbers - which is not just dishonest but shows contempt for the target) that show poor judgement. He compounds the poor judgement by bragging about the previous poor judgement.
The antisocial stuff is implicit in what he doesn't mention: from his descriptions, his workplaces are hollow boxes with some juicy targets (execs) in them and nothing else. Where are the people? There aren't any because at some level they don't exist for the OP. This is, of course, a hallmark trait of narcissism.
The good news (great news, really), is that NPD is one of the most treatable of personality disorders if the person decides they want treatment. The reason? The narcissist is confident in their ability, and confidence helps when you want to shape your own behavior.
The caveat to all this being that free advice is worth what you paid for it, even less if given by a stranger on the internet. But, FWIW, it's my honest take. If it ends up being accurate (if you look up the disorder) and you get help, I'd love to know if this post help you. (See, I'm a little NPD too! ;)
I think you're reading a lot into a very short post and that it's pretty ridiculous, not to mention extremely condescending, to suggest that OP might have NPD
Lots of people here agree that something's very off with OP. Maybe it's not NPD, but there's definitely something. Could just be poor personal hygiene or social skills. Maybe he's asking for 7 figures at every first interview. Personally I'm very fascinated with the duality in OP's mind of either working at Google or being homeless, like the huge middle ground doesn't exist at all.
And OP seems very concerned about medical insurance, which might suggest something bigger behind the curtains. Young folks often think they're invincible, and medical insurance is last in their list of worries.
And OP seems very concerned about medical insurance, which might suggest something bigger behind the curtains. Young folks often think they're invincible, and medical insurance is last in their list of worries.
The OP asked for candid feedback, and told us not to hold back. I myself added a caveat to my post to address your very concern. Is there something more that you think I should have done?
(BTW I agree I'm reading a lot into his post, Sherlock Holmes style, but without confirmation one way or the other, its hard to say if I'm on target. In any event, I do not believe that the OP would share your umbrage, given his post.)
(BTW I agree I'm reading a lot into his post, Sherlock Holmes style, but without confirmation one way or the other, its hard to say if I'm on target. In any event, I do not believe that the OP would share your umbrage, given his post.)
Yeah you should have given them advice on how to land a gig and not diagnosed them with NPD. I see where you're coming from and I agree it might be useful for OP to work on how they communicate, but that should be between them and a therapist.
There are a few assumptions that are false. For one, I am not a doctor, and this is not a diagnoses. It is explicitly an opinion based on (very) thin evidence. I agree they should see a therapist, if possible. I would not normally be so blunt, but the OP asked.
But the primary false thing I want to address is the tacit assertion that "Telling someone they have NPD traits is a personal attack." I understand that assumption because, sadly, accusation of personality disorder has become a common style of personal attack. It's very similar, actually, to the classic status of "homosexuality" - once a pejoritive, now mostly just a fact. And I'm not sure if you noticed, but HN has a LOT of psychology-related content. As a group people here seem to show a lot of admirable compassion and empathy for each other's vulnerabilities. I think it's a remarkable feature of the place, and I hope you can take my words in that context. NPD is quite common in the world, in our field, and its entirely posssible to be a good person who struggles with NPD.
Your protective instinct speaks well of you! But you may need to reassess whether or not I actually attacked the OP, given his request and the context of my response.
But the primary false thing I want to address is the tacit assertion that "Telling someone they have NPD traits is a personal attack." I understand that assumption because, sadly, accusation of personality disorder has become a common style of personal attack. It's very similar, actually, to the classic status of "homosexuality" - once a pejoritive, now mostly just a fact. And I'm not sure if you noticed, but HN has a LOT of psychology-related content. As a group people here seem to show a lot of admirable compassion and empathy for each other's vulnerabilities. I think it's a remarkable feature of the place, and I hope you can take my words in that context. NPD is quite common in the world, in our field, and its entirely posssible to be a good person who struggles with NPD.
Your protective instinct speaks well of you! But you may need to reassess whether or not I actually attacked the OP, given his request and the context of my response.
Fascinating take on NPD. But it’s my understanding that narcissism is actually the hardest disorder to cure, as its very nature is to be in denial that anything needs to change — it’s the rest of the world that needs to change.
>hardest disorder to cure
...if they don't want to change. That is a true statement. But, if they do want to change, it's relatively straight-forward.
BTW the thing you can control is not your actions, or even your reactions, but rather your attention. The best thing a narcissist can do is learn to see themselves in others. Modulo the risk of projection (that is, ascribing too much commonality to the other), it's a nice judo move to turn a dark quality into a light one.
...if they don't want to change. That is a true statement. But, if they do want to change, it's relatively straight-forward.
BTW the thing you can control is not your actions, or even your reactions, but rather your attention. The best thing a narcissist can do is learn to see themselves in others. Modulo the risk of projection (that is, ascribing too much commonality to the other), it's a nice judo move to turn a dark quality into a light one.
it is speculative, but I agree
I've tried asking companies for feedback. Some respond, and some don't. I think that most don't due to legal reasons. I did move to Austin when I received a lump sum of money, and hanged with some people IRL. Some would ratify that I'm awkward lol. But there was a lot of good vibes while I was in Austin. Now that I'm back where I grew up I find that I'm more depressed, and surly. State goverment here is more Laissez-faire, and there's a lot of crime.
Reason that I mentioned that I mentioned Bill Landreth was that I think that I'm kinda like him. I got in to programming, RE, VR, soldering etc. when I was very young. Like 8 years old. I knew some folks that Wired articles were written about etc. I hanged out with a Head of Research guy at IBM who told me himself that I know some stuff that he doesn't know, and have told me that I'm smart. Which sounds cringy now that I type this. But I'm not delusional lol. I was the second person at 18 years old to be hired full-time at IBM in a certain program.. The first guy works at Armonk. I can send proof, screenshots of interview emails with DKIM etc. if anyone would like to verify my claims. Trust but verify as former president Reagan liked to quote.
Reason that I mentioned that I mentioned Bill Landreth was that I think that I'm kinda like him. I got in to programming, RE, VR, soldering etc. when I was very young. Like 8 years old. I knew some folks that Wired articles were written about etc. I hanged out with a Head of Research guy at IBM who told me himself that I know some stuff that he doesn't know, and have told me that I'm smart. Which sounds cringy now that I type this. But I'm not delusional lol. I was the second person at 18 years old to be hired full-time at IBM in a certain program.. The first guy works at Armonk. I can send proof, screenshots of interview emails with DKIM etc. if anyone would like to verify my claims. Trust but verify as former president Reagan liked to quote.
I'm not challenging you on whether or not you're smart. I'm commenting on the fact that you're unable to find employment, which means either you're carrying yourself incorrectly or you're unable to perform the tasks required of an entry-level applicant. You're bringing up this resume, these achievements, which can verify that you're intelligent and capable of critical thinking, so the greatest culprit would be that you're carrying yourself incorrectly, right?
In another post you brought up your longest stint being 2 months, and that you dropped out of college your freshman year. To be blunt, I don't think the achievements you list really count if you didn't actually complete them. There's a lot of "I worked with", "I got accepted to", "I got hired by" in your posts, but pretty much all of those things are followed by quitting almost immediately. When you're competing in a market with college grads and people with lots of previous experience, having gotten accepted to and then dropping out of a good school buys you much?
In another post you brought up your longest stint being 2 months, and that you dropped out of college your freshman year. To be blunt, I don't think the achievements you list really count if you didn't actually complete them. There's a lot of "I worked with", "I got accepted to", "I got hired by" in your posts, but pretty much all of those things are followed by quitting almost immediately. When you're competing in a market with college grads and people with lots of previous experience, having gotten accepted to and then dropping out of a good school buys you much?
One of the hardest lessons for young people early in their careers is to stop beginning sentences with “I am going to...” or “I am doing...” and instead start off with a [truthful!] “I did...”
With an abusive childhood, homeschooling, no college, OP has a long road to travel. That all needs to be addressed, and finding a supportive environment will make that much easier. A career is based on achievement, however, beginning with simply doing the work and staying employed.
With an abusive childhood, homeschooling, no college, OP has a long road to travel. That all needs to be addressed, and finding a supportive environment will make that much easier. A career is based on achievement, however, beginning with simply doing the work and staying employed.
> One of the hardest lessons for young people early in their careers is to stop beginning sentences with “I am going to...” or “I am doing...” and instead start off with a [truthful!] “I did...”
It's tough all around I think. It seems like OP might've observed signaling in the past that suggested that "appearing to be a good candidate" and "being a good candidate" are identical, and in actuality are usually not. It's tough because of nepotism, sometimes appearing to be a good candidate is good enough, but for most people you actually have to be at least close to as good a candidate as you appear to be. Meaning, if you include that you went to X university, you actually have to have worked through a substantial amount of that university's curriculum. Same with any internship/program/whatever - there's almost no value in having just been invited to attend.
It's tough all around I think. It seems like OP might've observed signaling in the past that suggested that "appearing to be a good candidate" and "being a good candidate" are identical, and in actuality are usually not. It's tough because of nepotism, sometimes appearing to be a good candidate is good enough, but for most people you actually have to be at least close to as good a candidate as you appear to be. Meaning, if you include that you went to X university, you actually have to have worked through a substantial amount of that university's curriculum. Same with any internship/program/whatever - there's almost no value in having just been invited to attend.
Its important to remember being smart and being good at your job, are very different things.
Many jobs do not require much intelligence. Even those that do, usually its just one component of the skills required.
Many jobs do not require much intelligence. Even those that do, usually its just one component of the skills required.
I can vouch for that. Often what employers want is someone they can rely on.
I have a feeling that many jobs don't really require a lot of intelligent work(?), and it's really hard to get used to that.
I definitely quit my first job because of that. My second job was better, but there wasn't all that much to learn, so I quit relatively soon. Now I'm on my third job, and there definitely hasn't been a lot of intellectual stimulation these days. Last time for something (that I was actually assigned and didn't just decide to do) was maybe late last year? The job itself pays well though and has some other perks.
I doubt there are many jobs that are interesting 100% of time. Better try to accept that.
Also most of my recommendations were rejected on my first job (large company), but most or even all were incorporated at my second job (startup).
@OP Did you mostly apply at well-known companies? Maybe go for a startup instead. Maybe you'll even be able to start a new department and not run out of stuff to do to keep yourself interested.
I definitely quit my first job because of that. My second job was better, but there wasn't all that much to learn, so I quit relatively soon. Now I'm on my third job, and there definitely hasn't been a lot of intellectual stimulation these days. Last time for something (that I was actually assigned and didn't just decide to do) was maybe late last year? The job itself pays well though and has some other perks.
I doubt there are many jobs that are interesting 100% of time. Better try to accept that.
Also most of my recommendations were rejected on my first job (large company), but most or even all were incorporated at my second job (startup).
@OP Did you mostly apply at well-known companies? Maybe go for a startup instead. Maybe you'll even be able to start a new department and not run out of stuff to do to keep yourself interested.
>>> which means either you're carrying yourself incorrectly or you're unable to perform the tasks required of an entry-level applicant.
That's reading too far IMO. I see no mention of a degree at a reputable college. I see experience in support/QA, that has no relevance to the work of a developer (and it didn't go well apparently).
I don't expect that sort of profile to be invited to job interviews. The job market is brutal.
That's reading too far IMO. I see no mention of a degree at a reputable college. I see experience in support/QA, that has no relevance to the work of a developer (and it didn't go well apparently).
I don't expect that sort of profile to be invited to job interviews. The job market is brutal.
Sorry, I should've rephrased to say "you're being assessed as carrying yourself incorrectly or being unable to perform..."
Meaning, if they're making it to an interview, they might be failing at a personality/conversational portion, and if they're not, it's probably because their resume/achievements do not get them to the next interview phase.
Meaning, if they're making it to an interview, they might be failing at a personality/conversational portion, and if they're not, it's probably because their resume/achievements do not get them to the next interview phase.
Another way around this is to not apply for the job. Find the hiring manager and ask them for advice/feedback on your experience/resume, that you value feedback more than consideration for any role. In YC we always reminded ourselves that if you ask for money, you get advice. Ask for advice, and you get money. I think this applies here. Get the feedback via email or writing so you can read it more than once or even share it with other people and have them help you interpret it for maximum growth. Ask people who you admire for advice and to look at your resume, experience, application, and invite them to be honest. And if you don’t have friends you admire (because as they say we’re the average of the 5 people with whom we spend the most time), expand your circle, finding ways to give to others with no expectation of anything in return.
You’ve started a great dialog with yourself. Congrats, and keep it going.
You’ve started a great dialog with yourself. Congrats, and keep it going.
> I knew some folks that Wired articles were written about etc.
This is a red flag right here. You put this in a list of evidence you’re capable and not delusional? You were near semi-notable people.
A lot of your accomplishments read that way. You were near something cool. You dropped out of a good school. You got a (self described as) low paying job at 18 at IBM. Someone really accomplished there complimented you once. You knew people who had things written about them. You were in a program someone who works at armonk was in. Someone else fixed something quickly after you flagged it. None of this is about you, it’s all about other people.
The very fact that these are what you’re listing as positives (or at least as things relevant to you) is a red flag. Do you have any “I accomplished/completed...” accomplishments? You say you’ve been doing VR since you were 8, have you finished anything worth mentioning in all that time?
I agree with another commenter that your ego and expectations could be a problem. If you got one of the jobs you quit before, would you still quit it?
This is a red flag right here. You put this in a list of evidence you’re capable and not delusional? You were near semi-notable people.
A lot of your accomplishments read that way. You were near something cool. You dropped out of a good school. You got a (self described as) low paying job at 18 at IBM. Someone really accomplished there complimented you once. You knew people who had things written about them. You were in a program someone who works at armonk was in. Someone else fixed something quickly after you flagged it. None of this is about you, it’s all about other people.
The very fact that these are what you’re listing as positives (or at least as things relevant to you) is a red flag. Do you have any “I accomplished/completed...” accomplishments? You say you’ve been doing VR since you were 8, have you finished anything worth mentioning in all that time?
I agree with another commenter that your ego and expectations could be a problem. If you got one of the jobs you quit before, would you still quit it?
> Reason that I mentioned that I mentioned Bill Landreth was that I think that I'm kinda like him.
Bill Landreth was homeless in Santa Monica in 2016[1]. Plenty of smart people have ended up the same way.
I think you might be making the mistake of thinking that being smart matters. It doesn't matter very much - if the outcome is "success" (whatever that means) then generally speaking having people like you is a better predictor than being smart.
Do people like you? If not then fix that. Read "How to win friends and influence people" and follow the advice.
[1] https://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/the-untold-story-of-the-teen...
Bill Landreth was homeless in Santa Monica in 2016[1]. Plenty of smart people have ended up the same way.
I think you might be making the mistake of thinking that being smart matters. It doesn't matter very much - if the outcome is "success" (whatever that means) then generally speaking having people like you is a better predictor than being smart.
Do people like you? If not then fix that. Read "How to win friends and influence people" and follow the advice.
[1] https://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/the-untold-story-of-the-teen...
I would not listen to any advice on HN. I have a pretty solid hiring strategy, but it got downvoted to hell because HN skews to people without much real world experience. They can only think of tech products to sell to other tech companies. (I'm a CTO, and I've raised seed money for two different products. Our market is small -- under 200MM ARR -- but our nearest competitor starts at $30k per year and their product is terrible).
Focus on smaller companies that need help solving actual business problems with automation. Offer to do a project for $20 an hour. Get a job doing straight up IT stuff until you earn their trust, and then show them what you can do software wise. There is a lot of room for competent IT people, but you need to be way more realistic about who is going to hire you.
Honestly, I don't know why anyone wants to work for Google anyways. I took a developer course from one of their former employees, and it was a fucking joke. His ego trip was so ridiculous he said the words "no good Javascript developer uses four space indentions. Have you ever seen one??" And I was thinking, yes, in the library you had us review last week.
Lots of imposters and jackasses out there. Do honest work for smaller companies. It can lead to a lot more opportunity.
Focus on smaller companies that need help solving actual business problems with automation. Offer to do a project for $20 an hour. Get a job doing straight up IT stuff until you earn their trust, and then show them what you can do software wise. There is a lot of room for competent IT people, but you need to be way more realistic about who is going to hire you.
Honestly, I don't know why anyone wants to work for Google anyways. I took a developer course from one of their former employees, and it was a fucking joke. His ego trip was so ridiculous he said the words "no good Javascript developer uses four space indentions. Have you ever seen one??" And I was thinking, yes, in the library you had us review last week.
Lots of imposters and jackasses out there. Do honest work for smaller companies. It can lead to a lot more opportunity.
> I would not listen to any advice on HN. I have a pretty solid hiring strategy, but it got downvoted to hell because HN skews to people without much real world experience. They can only think of tech products to sell to other tech companies.
< Proceeds to give advice on HN >
This part doesn't really seem worthwhile to post.
> Focus on smaller companies that need help solving actual business problems with automation. Offer to do a project for $20 an hour. Get a job doing straight up IT stuff until you earn their trust, and then show them what you can do software wise. There is a lot of room for competent IT people, but you need to be way more realistic about who is going to hire you.
Excellent advice.
< Proceeds to give advice on HN >
This part doesn't really seem worthwhile to post.
> Focus on smaller companies that need help solving actual business problems with automation. Offer to do a project for $20 an hour. Get a job doing straight up IT stuff until you earn their trust, and then show them what you can do software wise. There is a lot of room for competent IT people, but you need to be way more realistic about who is going to hire you.
Excellent advice.
> This part doesn't really seem worthwhile to post.
I restrict my social media time to a couple of hours a week. If you want to be successful, hustle on LinkedIn. HackerNews is a procrastination hole for people who want to talk about developing software instead of actually doing it.
I restrict my social media time to a couple of hours a week. If you want to be successful, hustle on LinkedIn. HackerNews is a procrastination hole for people who want to talk about developing software instead of actually doing it.
This post also doesn't really seem worthwhile, but you're entitled to your opinion.
LinkedIn is basically facebook. I would argue that anything Facebook-esque is a fundamental waste of time. Misinformation spewing influencer spam.
LinkedIn is basically facebook. I would argue that anything Facebook-esque is a fundamental waste of time. Misinformation spewing influencer spam.
When is the last time a recruiter checked out your profile on Facebook?
When is the last time someone shared obvious misinformation about covid on LinkedIn? Or women and POC being harassed via DMs? Or people vomiting influencer spam?
LinkedIn is the only social media site with the possibility of return on time investment, which all suffer from the problems you mention. So why pick the one that can't possibly get you paid?
Also, I'm still curious on how many recruiters have contacted you through Facebook and viewed your resume, as compared to LinkedIn.
Also, I'm still curious on how many recruiters have contacted you through Facebook and viewed your resume, as compared to LinkedIn.
> LinkedIn is the only social media site with the possibility of return on time investment, which all suffer from the problems you mention. So why pick the one that can't possibly get you paid?
Do you think influencers go on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram because they aren't getting paid? They just like it?
> Also, I'm still curious on how many recruiters have contacted you through Facebook and viewed your resume, as compared to LinkedIn.
To compare, the answer is 0 to both. I haven't been on Facebook since probably 2013, and I only had a LI at all because we were required to make one in college, which I logged into for the second time ever to deactivate also probably around 2013.
Do you think influencers go on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram because they aren't getting paid? They just like it?
> Also, I'm still curious on how many recruiters have contacted you through Facebook and viewed your resume, as compared to LinkedIn.
To compare, the answer is 0 to both. I haven't been on Facebook since probably 2013, and I only had a LI at all because we were required to make one in college, which I logged into for the second time ever to deactivate also probably around 2013.
I assumed we were talking about software development, not influencing. Why are you so interested in chiming in on products you haven't used in 8 years?
> I assumed we were talking about software development, not influencing.
I am, which is why I totally ignore LinkedIn :)
> Why are you so interested in chiming in on products you haven't used in 8 years?
I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to post verifiable information about products unless I also participated.
Your comments seem to be increasingly condescending and short. You're welcome to take that behavior to LI, but I will not continue participating in this discussion. Have a great day.
I am, which is why I totally ignore LinkedIn :)
> Why are you so interested in chiming in on products you haven't used in 8 years?
I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to post verifiable information about products unless I also participated.
Your comments seem to be increasingly condescending and short. You're welcome to take that behavior to LI, but I will not continue participating in this discussion. Have a great day.
> Focus on smaller companies that need help solving actual business problems with automation.
Thirding this. Smaller companies are easier to get into and actually more satisfying to work for (YMMV). Another responder also said basically "keep your head down and learn for the first year" which is great advice too.
Thirding this. Smaller companies are easier to get into and actually more satisfying to work for (YMMV). Another responder also said basically "keep your head down and learn for the first year" which is great advice too.
PS: Never sound desperate. If you have the skills, confidently and honestly explain them to anyone who will listen. Tell them you'll work for cheap to prove yourself. You should have a job in no time.
> Honestly, I don't know why anyone wants to work for Google anyways.
I can tell you why - www.levels.fyi
Google is quite literally one of the most well-known and powerful tech companies in the world - I assume it's not that hard to think people who work in tech would want to associate with an organization int hat position.
---
I don't understand your basis of judging the skills of their engineers either. You had one data point of taking a course from a former engineer - not working together with, not a current Googler. Google employs thousands of Software Engineers and represent a large part of the Internet.
I can tell you why - www.levels.fyi
Google is quite literally one of the most well-known and powerful tech companies in the world - I assume it's not that hard to think people who work in tech would want to associate with an organization int hat position.
---
I don't understand your basis of judging the skills of their engineers either. You had one data point of taking a course from a former engineer - not working together with, not a current Googler. Google employs thousands of Software Engineers and represent a large part of the Internet.
The former Googler used to be a Product Manager and I thought I would get some valuable insights. For as high up as he made it, I have no interest in learning how Google operates after seeing his interactions with others.
Through hard work and some dumb luck, I've also interacted with other Fortune 10/50 corporations at the VP level. I wasn't impressed with them either. So it's not just an anti-Google thing.
Through hard work and some dumb luck, I've also interacted with other Fortune 10/50 corporations at the VP level. I wasn't impressed with them either. So it's not just an anti-Google thing.
Another good reason I don't have any respect for Google:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/google-used-d...
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/google-used-d...
Your ego is a huge problem.
If you know how to program you should go after that. There is a world wide shortage of programmers. It is also a great stepping stone if you want to move to something else.
If you can't get hired at a place there is a gig economy of sorts with lots of sites where you can bid yourself on projects. Start with small easy stuff and use those projects to build a portfolio.
I about a year that portfolio should be enough to get you in the door (for entry level developer roles) of most companies even if you have never worked as a programmer yet.
If you can't get hired at a place there is a gig economy of sorts with lots of sites where you can bid yourself on projects. Start with small easy stuff and use those projects to build a portfolio.
I about a year that portfolio should be enough to get you in the door (for entry level developer roles) of most companies even if you have never worked as a programmer yet.
Getting back on the ladder is hard if you fell off.
For applications and interviews for the people hiring it is all about perception and reducing risk. When hiring managers/assistants go through the piles of applications they throw away any with red flags, or at best put them in the maybe pile. If a lot of non-red flag applications they discard the maybes as well.
Don't have red flags, or at least camouflage them as best you can on the CV, don't lie though.
In the interviews don't raise red flags either. Some of your original post and comments are potential red flags to me. Practice interviews over and over again, and have ready made answers to all awkward possible questions. No excuses though, make them a good thing for some reason.
I suck at the first interview I do every time I go through the finding-a-new-job/contract process. But by the 2nd, perhaps 3rd, I have remembered the fine art of interviewing, and regurgitate the same practised answers over and over again, and mostly get offered the jobs. Practice.
Don't have gaps on your CV. I have gaps on my CV, but you can't really spot them. E.g. I removed mentioning months to just state the calendar years I was at companies. Sometimes there was a 6 months gaps but you can't tell. I also took a long time off to help when the kids were young. On my CV I just list the smaller projects I was working on at the time instead, even if that was just 10 hours a week. It is all about perception for the person skim-reading your CV.
Ps. in an interview don't say "I did move to Austin when I received a lump sum of money, and hanged with some people". Reword that to something career positive. E.g. took a gap year, worked on startup ideas, taking mentoring lessons, or at best don't mention it. I know when you are young it is a normal thing to do, just it looks or sounds terrible in a hiring process. Again don't have gaps.
Also never again mention that other people say you are smart, know some smart people etc. It is irrelevant, and mostly off putting. Nice for your own self-esteem but not for anyone else. Instead show examples of things you delivered.
Remember you are not the only person applying for that role. Make them want you, as a non-risk option. You also need to seem keen on the company but also make them aware you have other options and are not desperate even if not true...
For applications and interviews for the people hiring it is all about perception and reducing risk. When hiring managers/assistants go through the piles of applications they throw away any with red flags, or at best put them in the maybe pile. If a lot of non-red flag applications they discard the maybes as well.
Don't have red flags, or at least camouflage them as best you can on the CV, don't lie though.
In the interviews don't raise red flags either. Some of your original post and comments are potential red flags to me. Practice interviews over and over again, and have ready made answers to all awkward possible questions. No excuses though, make them a good thing for some reason.
I suck at the first interview I do every time I go through the finding-a-new-job/contract process. But by the 2nd, perhaps 3rd, I have remembered the fine art of interviewing, and regurgitate the same practised answers over and over again, and mostly get offered the jobs. Practice.
Don't have gaps on your CV. I have gaps on my CV, but you can't really spot them. E.g. I removed mentioning months to just state the calendar years I was at companies. Sometimes there was a 6 months gaps but you can't tell. I also took a long time off to help when the kids were young. On my CV I just list the smaller projects I was working on at the time instead, even if that was just 10 hours a week. It is all about perception for the person skim-reading your CV.
Ps. in an interview don't say "I did move to Austin when I received a lump sum of money, and hanged with some people". Reword that to something career positive. E.g. took a gap year, worked on startup ideas, taking mentoring lessons, or at best don't mention it. I know when you are young it is a normal thing to do, just it looks or sounds terrible in a hiring process. Again don't have gaps.
Also never again mention that other people say you are smart, know some smart people etc. It is irrelevant, and mostly off putting. Nice for your own self-esteem but not for anyone else. Instead show examples of things you delivered.
Remember you are not the only person applying for that role. Make them want you, as a non-risk option. You also need to seem keen on the company but also make them aware you have other options and are not desperate even if not true...
Many companies large enough to have HR and/or legal departments have rules specifically against providing feedback to candidates on why they were rejected.
I've been a FAANG hiring manager and those rules were not rigidly enforced. There are other deterrents, however. As a younger manager I was keen to respond to such requests, but a significant proportion of unsuccessful candidates would then argue, sometimes quite vehemently, about the validity of the feedback. This curtailed my enthusiasm, and I've been rather selective since.
Interesting. I'm curious: roughly how often did the candidate promise they'd take your feedback constructively, calmly and then argue with you anyway?
(I'd hope it would be close to 0, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was much higher.)
(I'd hope it would be close to 0, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was much higher.)
I'm a recruiter and candidates argue 95% of the time. Maybe higher. I only give feedback in very, very selective situations and even then I almost always regret it due to the response. Most people are not calm, rational, dispassionate receptors of critical feedback... especially when there is money and ego at stake.
Or just need to blow off steam: accept defeat AND also rant :-))
Who do you recruit for? I'm soon to be a new grad, looking for a job, and if you reject me.. you could literally berate me for things I didn't actually do and I wouldn't find it appropriate or productive to argue with you about it. Let's set up an interview, you can record my reaction to the rejection and send it to those who argue for reference on how not to be a moron.
I don't recruit new grads so it would never happen. Similar to OP's post, it's almost always a situation where it's painfully obvious to everyone else involved why the person isn't getting hired, but it would be awkward or a waste of time to try to tell the person.
It's also virtually always social skill related... if you weren't up to the task technically, you wouldn't have been asked to interview. The in person interview is normally to decide "do I want to see this person 40+ hours a week for the next 5 years" rather than "can they do the job."
Lots of exceptions obviously but mostly true across the board.
It's also virtually always social skill related... if you weren't up to the task technically, you wouldn't have been asked to interview. The in person interview is normally to decide "do I want to see this person 40+ hours a week for the next 5 years" rather than "can they do the job."
Lots of exceptions obviously but mostly true across the board.
For what it's worth, that's definitely not my experience. I've interviewed or phone-screened at least 200 people over the last few years, and yes, there's been a handful of rejections where the major concern was social skills: abrasive, over-confident, poor communication or lacking the appearance of motivation. But I've had far more people who simply couldn't perform well enough on the technical problem or who had obviously over-stated their qualifications and knowledge on their resume. I actually distinctly remember several interviews lately where I really liked the candidate as a person and had a very enjoyable chat with them, but I just didn't think they would do the job well.
There are a lot of flaws in the way interviews are done in our industry that make it more subjective than it should be, but I still wouldn't consider the latter set of problems to be social skill related.
There are a lot of flaws in the way interviews are done in our industry that make it more subjective than it should be, but I still wouldn't consider the latter set of problems to be social skill related.
The only thing this tells me is you have an error in your hiring process that is leading you to interviewing people in person that cannot do the job. This should never happen.
Do you know of a way to screen out people who inflate their expertise on a resume or who fail to demonstrate competency in those areas during an interview, without actually interviewing them? Because if you do I'd love to hear it. But I thought that was the point of interviewing them. I don't expect recruiters and HR people who focus exclusively on hiring to have more than a shallow knowledge of what we're hiring for. I definitely don't encounter those more qualified to evaluate qualifications on LinkedIn, that's for sure. And LeetCode isn't nearly that good at eliminating crappy candidates. Plenty of people do it and then seem to lack those same skills when they show up.
That's why we have discussions like this: https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/.
If validating their technical qualifications is not the point of the interview, are you really only interviewing candidates to see if people like their social skills? That sounds legally shady for most cases, and honestly for extreme cases where there's a valid concern that IS the kind of thing I'd expect to be filtered out by an introductory call with a manager or something.
That's why we have discussions like this: https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/.
If validating their technical qualifications is not the point of the interview, are you really only interviewing candidates to see if people like their social skills? That sounds legally shady for most cases, and honestly for extreme cases where there's a valid concern that IS the kind of thing I'd expect to be filtered out by an introductory call with a manager or something.
Yes you interview them over the phone in an initial phone screen before you invite them in for an in person interview.
The phone screen should cover lots of technical areas with deep follow up questions and examples.
I work in a specific niche (not coding) and can tell you that I bat .1000 on technical fit... cultural fit cannot be assessed until you meet the person and they meet the team, or at a minimum, hiring manager.
The phone screen should cover lots of technical areas with deep follow up questions and examples.
I work in a specific niche (not coding) and can tell you that I bat .1000 on technical fit... cultural fit cannot be assessed until you meet the person and they meet the team, or at a minimum, hiring manager.
Sorry, but your whole comment history sounds like you believe you've 100% figured out problems everyone else seems to have but you're unable to share details beyond No-True-Scotsman arguments.
Nope, hiring processes should bias for type 1 (false positive) errors at ingress, and bias for type 2 (false negative) on the decision side.
Otherwise we miss interviewing people who can do the job, and in my experience, some of the most interesting people; but this means, one may sometimes be interviewing people that cannot do the job.
Since these are human-mediated processes, there is no accurate single-stage filter, and anyone claiming to operate an unbiased hiring process is either a fool or a liar. A hiring funnel (and really, any decision process) that recognises the inevitability of biases, and is phased accordingly, leads to more optimal outcomes.
Otherwise we miss interviewing people who can do the job, and in my experience, some of the most interesting people; but this means, one may sometimes be interviewing people that cannot do the job.
Since these are human-mediated processes, there is no accurate single-stage filter, and anyone claiming to operate an unbiased hiring process is either a fool or a liar. A hiring funnel (and really, any decision process) that recognises the inevitability of biases, and is phased accordingly, leads to more optimal outcomes.
Either I'm doing a bad job communicating or you're doing a bad job understanding.
I'm not saying no human should be involved. I'm saying an excellent human should screen candidates in a phone (or Teams or Zoom or whatever) interview before they are invited to sit across from you at your desk or in a conference room.
If you find yourself sitting across from someone who cannot technically do the job, your step one has failed (and should never fail).
If you don't hire someone because their in-person interview didn't go well, it is social skill (or cultural fit) related.
If that's not the case, reference step one to see that you have an error in who you are inviting for in-person interviews (or your phone screener should not be the person phone screening).
I'm not saying no human should be involved. I'm saying an excellent human should screen candidates in a phone (or Teams or Zoom or whatever) interview before they are invited to sit across from you at your desk or in a conference room.
If you find yourself sitting across from someone who cannot technically do the job, your step one has failed (and should never fail).
If you don't hire someone because their in-person interview didn't go well, it is social skill (or cultural fit) related.
If that's not the case, reference step one to see that you have an error in who you are inviting for in-person interviews (or your phone screener should not be the person phone screening).
Oh, no, you're communicating perfectly well, and there's no lack of comprehension; I'm simply saying this is flat-out wrong:
"If you find yourself sitting across from someone who cannot technically do the job, your step one has failed (and should never fail)."
The suggestion that any screening test must be infallible is simply nonsense, since simultaneous perfect specificity and sensitivity is impossible, and contradicts numerous findings in decision-theoretic research, and I therefore simply and absolutely disagree. All processes fail, and in particular, because individual process steps fail; it merely remains to determine whether you're biased for showing interesting people the door, or inviting them in to take a closer look. This is also the essence of a screening test in, say, medicine, that are necessarily biased to be sensitive over specific, since a false rejection of a patient may be health threatening; more specific (and generally more expensive) testing follows. Or perhaps in sales, where a lead attracts ever more attention as it moves through the qualification funnel.
As I say, these are general consequences of decision theory, a branch of mathematics to which hiring has no magical exemption.
Ergo, anyone claiming their screening is infallible is either a fool or a liar. Sadly, many recruiters are both, which partially explains why so many HR departments are essentially a mediocrity police that create barriers to accessing the entire talent pool. These are not to be trusted (and must, therefore, be bypassed at the earliest opportunity) when in comes to building teams of heterogeneous and interesting people with complementary skills and diverse perspectives, which is to say, any high-performance team, or at least every high-performing team I've been privileged to encounter in the last forty years.
Incidentally, my experience at AWS was the opposite. The talent acquisition team there, at least that assisting my own business unit, was very much on the ball when it came to pulling in candidates from left-field.
"If you find yourself sitting across from someone who cannot technically do the job, your step one has failed (and should never fail)."
The suggestion that any screening test must be infallible is simply nonsense, since simultaneous perfect specificity and sensitivity is impossible, and contradicts numerous findings in decision-theoretic research, and I therefore simply and absolutely disagree. All processes fail, and in particular, because individual process steps fail; it merely remains to determine whether you're biased for showing interesting people the door, or inviting them in to take a closer look. This is also the essence of a screening test in, say, medicine, that are necessarily biased to be sensitive over specific, since a false rejection of a patient may be health threatening; more specific (and generally more expensive) testing follows. Or perhaps in sales, where a lead attracts ever more attention as it moves through the qualification funnel.
As I say, these are general consequences of decision theory, a branch of mathematics to which hiring has no magical exemption.
Ergo, anyone claiming their screening is infallible is either a fool or a liar. Sadly, many recruiters are both, which partially explains why so many HR departments are essentially a mediocrity police that create barriers to accessing the entire talent pool. These are not to be trusted (and must, therefore, be bypassed at the earliest opportunity) when in comes to building teams of heterogeneous and interesting people with complementary skills and diverse perspectives, which is to say, any high-performance team, or at least every high-performing team I've been privileged to encounter in the last forty years.
Incidentally, my experience at AWS was the opposite. The talent acquisition team there, at least that assisting my own business unit, was very much on the ball when it came to pulling in candidates from left-field.
My experience too, it’s good to give a sentence or two out of courtesy but the arguing and sheer bullshit you get back sometimes, made me shake my head.
The other things is that far more commonly than sirens and alarm bells going off about something specific, is that someone just didn't wow me and I thought we could do better.
When we meet after an interview round "meh" is a much more common collective reaction than "run away now."
When we meet after an interview round "meh" is a much more common collective reaction than "run away now."
I don't disagree, but I think you'd be surprised at how many would respond in some capacity that was helpful. Even if 100 people refuse and one person doesn't, that's still more information than you had before.
And in my experience, if you fail the technical portion of an interview, most companies will tell you. Meaning, if you ask and they don't bring up technical skills, it's probably not the technical skills.
And in my experience, if you fail the technical portion of an interview, most companies will tell you. Meaning, if you ask and they don't bring up technical skills, it's probably not the technical skills.
You can always say, “I know you can’t give me a specific reason on why I’m being rejected, but can you offer any guidance on how I can do better? Anything you can offer could be helpful.”
This is definitely true but it doesn't hurt to ask. I've asked every time and gotten some really useful responses.
When I was young I interviewed at Microsoft and was rejected. I asked the recruiter for feedback. She talked me through some of the feedback from the interviewers and gave me advice for the future. It was really helpful.
When I was young I interviewed at Microsoft and was rejected. I asked the recruiter for feedback. She talked me through some of the feedback from the interviewers and gave me advice for the future. It was really helpful.
That may be true, but I've had good luck asking recruiters for feedback after getting bad news. They usually give some good advice or feedback - over the phone, of course, never in writing. Typically they say something like "You were really strong in X but the hiring manager is looking for someone with more Y." One recruiter told me that the HM had given me the thumbs down saying I was "insufficiently succinct" in my answers! But even there, I had good rapport with the recruiter and he was able to suggest other roles within the company.
If you get feedback that doesn't make much sense, it's likely not the real reason. Just like if a date rejects you, they'll give some silly fake reason why.
Sometimes the reason they give you is just the one that pushed you over the edge. At Amazon being "insufficiently succinct" is a greater err than one might think.
> insufficiently succinct
I like that one. I've done interviews where the answer should be at most a summary sentence, and 2-3 supporting points. I know the candidate knows the answer, it's a warmup question! Then what do I get? Word salad. A gigantic run-on sentence where the candidate talks and talks and talks and this, and that, and also, and furthermore... lasting 5 minutes or until I politely interrupt with, "OK let's move on to the next question."
I like that one. I've done interviews where the answer should be at most a summary sentence, and 2-3 supporting points. I know the candidate knows the answer, it's a warmup question! Then what do I get? Word salad. A gigantic run-on sentence where the candidate talks and talks and talks and this, and that, and also, and furthermore... lasting 5 minutes or until I politely interrupt with, "OK let's move on to the next question."
A colleague of mine was sued (alongside the company) for rejecting a candidate. The feedback they provided the candidate to help them out was cited in the lawsuit.
It is better to keep quiet about negative feedback in the lawsuit-heavy culture we inhabit.
It is better to keep quiet about negative feedback in the lawsuit-heavy culture we inhabit.
>Lots of lower-tiered jobs literally just need people to show up and do what they're asked. A part of getting a "first" or "entry level" job is accepting you're there mostly to learn, not to teach/move outside of your lane.
I recently saw a junior CV that said "I can lead and I can follow" in personal skills... meanwhile his CV was full of spelling mistakes and his biggest project was setting up a website for some realestate agency.
The number one thing I would want to see in a junior hire is effort and attention to detail, on the extreemes I prefer working with someone who's less talented but reliable and paying attention over someone who's technically capable but unfocused and all over the place.
I recently saw a junior CV that said "I can lead and I can follow" in personal skills... meanwhile his CV was full of spelling mistakes and his biggest project was setting up a website for some realestate agency.
The number one thing I would want to see in a junior hire is effort and attention to detail, on the extreemes I prefer working with someone who's less talented but reliable and paying attention over someone who's technically capable but unfocused and all over the place.
just an observation: a person who is technically capable but who is unfocussed and all over the place feels like an apt description for a lot neurodivergent behaviour in people.
effort and attention to detail, on the extreemes
Well, indeed.
Well, indeed.
How does that compare ? One situation is trying to present yourself to a potential employer the other is low effort anonymous forum board - if you're approaching them the same either you're spending too much effort on forums or too little on your CV :)
> Have you tried asking any of the jobs that rejected you're getting rejected?
Great point. I interviewed at Bridgewater and they gave a good post mortem on why I didnt get the job. It is something that I now ask for after every interview process that matters to me.
Doesn't always work but has changed my approach in a positive way. For me it takes 12 - 15 attempts to get a job. I am an (old)Infra/Cloud Engineer coming from a sysadmin background and need to constantly improve programming skills.
Asking for post-rejection feedback with humility and in the spirit of self improvement has led to me making connections and leaving interviews with the feeling of an open door for future attempts.
Great point. I interviewed at Bridgewater and they gave a good post mortem on why I didnt get the job. It is something that I now ask for after every interview process that matters to me.
Doesn't always work but has changed my approach in a positive way. For me it takes 12 - 15 attempts to get a job. I am an (old)Infra/Cloud Engineer coming from a sysadmin background and need to constantly improve programming skills.
Asking for post-rejection feedback with humility and in the spirit of self improvement has led to me making connections and leaving interviews with the feeling of an open door for future attempts.
I'm not the asker, but if I was in the same boat, would it be reasonable to instead apply directly to non-entry level jobs?
If you have no industry experience you will be very unlikely to get a job above entry level.
get on linkedin. look for people in your target company who say they are hiring. Send them a message.
Your writing is not strong, i can tell you did not attend college. Written communication is important in tech.
Your applying to those companies with 0 experience or college degree is unrealistic. The entry level is extremely competitive and you have nothing to make you interesting to hire. They get thousands of applications for those jobs.
You are still young, plenty of time to learn, but I recommend taking a step back and rethink your strategy. There are plenty of companies that do not get thousands of applications for jobs.
Let me put it bluntly: you are not qualified to be a software engineer. There is no reason anyone would currently hire you, unless you are personable and fun to talk to.
You show immaturity in the way you handled the flaw in the system you described. Calling your boss's boss because you think you are right is childish.
Additionally, you do not understand how to get a software job, you do not have realistic expectations for what kind of jobs you are qualified to acquire.
A few years ago my brother, who is in his thirties, was stuck in a dead end job he hated. So he took some classes in 3D modeling. He worked hard, built out his portfolio, networked, and eventually landed a job at a world famous video game studio making AAA games at an interesting role that builds his skills.
What he did not do was blindly apply to jobs he was not qualified to do with zero training
Your applying to those companies with 0 experience or college degree is unrealistic. The entry level is extremely competitive and you have nothing to make you interesting to hire. They get thousands of applications for those jobs.
You are still young, plenty of time to learn, but I recommend taking a step back and rethink your strategy. There are plenty of companies that do not get thousands of applications for jobs.
Let me put it bluntly: you are not qualified to be a software engineer. There is no reason anyone would currently hire you, unless you are personable and fun to talk to.
You show immaturity in the way you handled the flaw in the system you described. Calling your boss's boss because you think you are right is childish.
Additionally, you do not understand how to get a software job, you do not have realistic expectations for what kind of jobs you are qualified to acquire.
A few years ago my brother, who is in his thirties, was stuck in a dead end job he hated. So he took some classes in 3D modeling. He worked hard, built out his portfolio, networked, and eventually landed a job at a world famous video game studio making AAA games at an interesting role that builds his skills.
What he did not do was blindly apply to jobs he was not qualified to do with zero training
I really dislike the suggestion that someone who didn't attend college is therefore unable to write.
- "i" should be "I"
- "You are still young, plenty..." should be "You are still young, with plenty..."
- "would currently hire you," shouldn't have a comma
- "entry level", "dead end", and "world famous" should all be hyphenated
- "AAA games at an..." should be "AAA games in an..."
etc...
- "i" should be "I"
- "You are still young, plenty..." should be "You are still young, with plenty..."
- "would currently hire you," shouldn't have a comma
- "entry level", "dead end", and "world famous" should all be hyphenated
- "AAA games at an..." should be "AAA games in an..."
etc...
> I really dislike the suggestion that someone who didn't attend college is therefore unable to write.
That's not what he said. He suggested that someone who doesn't write well probably didn't attend college.
That's not what he said. He suggested that someone who doesn't write well probably didn't attend college.
> Your writing is not strong, i can tell you did not attend college.
Maybe you're right but this is how I read it.
Alice's writing is not strong -> Alice did not attend college.
therefore
Bob's writing is strong -> Bob did attend college.
Maybe you're right but this is how I read it.
Alice's writing is not strong -> Alice did not attend college.
therefore
Bob's writing is strong -> Bob did attend college.
You just fell into a logical fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent
On the other hand, what the other user deducted was:
* If you attend college -> You probably end up writing properly
* OP doesn't write properly -> He probably didn't attend college
Which is a proper logical deduction rule called modus tollens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_tollens
On the other hand, what the other user deducted was:
* If you attend college -> You probably end up writing properly
* OP doesn't write properly -> He probably didn't attend college
Which is a proper logical deduction rule called modus tollens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_tollens
Fair enough! Happy to be proved wrong :)
I apologize in advance for nitpicking, but since this sub-thread is about usage: it should be "deduced" not "deducted."
Thanks for telling me, English isn't my first language and I often make mistakes. I can't edit my comment to correct it.
[deleted]
They teach you English writing in CS/STEM programmes?
Often, STEM programs require out-of-major courses relating to written or spoken communication. Even if that isn't required, I would strongly advise all STEM students to cultivate those skills during their schooling.
Comfort and expertise reading, writing, and verbally communicating in English are some of the most important skills that distinguish excellent software engineers I have worked with and hired.
In many cases, those skills are even more important than technical/coding expertise--it's easier to teach and learn technicals when one's student is a fluent communicator, but a programming genius who routinely fails to explain their decisions or creations is a liability.
Somewhat ironically (or perhaps regrettably for the US education system), most of the engineers I have worked with or hired who were the most impressive written/spoken readers/communicators were people whose first language was not english, and many of the folks who struggled were native speakers/writers.
Edits: grammar, ironically.
Comfort and expertise reading, writing, and verbally communicating in English are some of the most important skills that distinguish excellent software engineers I have worked with and hired.
In many cases, those skills are even more important than technical/coding expertise--it's easier to teach and learn technicals when one's student is a fluent communicator, but a programming genius who routinely fails to explain their decisions or creations is a liability.
Somewhat ironically (or perhaps regrettably for the US education system), most of the engineers I have worked with or hired who were the most impressive written/spoken readers/communicators were people whose first language was not english, and many of the folks who struggled were native speakers/writers.
Edits: grammar, ironically.
I agree but I would cut the OP some slack on the writing for a forum post. I know I have dashed off things here that could use some proof reading. But the gist of what you are saying makes sense to me.
Going back to college seems like a good idea as a general direction.
Going back to college seems like a good idea as a general direction.
The GP has put a "your" instead of "you're" in (almost) the very next sentence, so you don't even need to point to your own mistakes to illustrate your point...
> The GP has put a "your" instead of "you're" in (almost) the very next sentence
Correctly so
Correctly so
[deleted]
That was my initial reaction, but the "your" is actually correct there:
> Your applying to those companies with 0 experience or college degree is unrealistic.
The clause "applying to..." is possessed by "your".
> Your applying to those companies with 0 experience or college degree is unrealistic.
The clause "applying to..." is possessed by "your".
Or, more directly, “your applying [...] is unrealistic”.
I think GP might be a bit hard on writing style. I know plenty of succesful software engineers with poor writing abilities, and realistically my own are far from great. However your vs you're is the type of grammar mistake that really does not matter. Nobody is going to be confused by it. Writing structure is much more important.
Edit: also looking back, GP used your correctly, so wut?
Edit: also looking back, GP used your correctly, so wut?
> Your writing is not strong,
I don't know. I think he has pretty decent writing. Kinda reminds me of William Gibson. It may be stylistically unusual, but it's definitely better than the median SWE. At least in terms of clearly conveying his thoughts.
I don't know. I think he has pretty decent writing. Kinda reminds me of William Gibson. It may be stylistically unusual, but it's definitely better than the median SWE. At least in terms of clearly conveying his thoughts.
The entire post flows awkwardly and feels more like an angry ramble than a coherent thought process was applied.
This coupled with being a dropout. quitting job after job, and basically phising executives for attention makes this candidate a high risk hire and is not worth the time.
Poster: You will need to extend your hard skills and demonstrate why a group should take the risk of your background on. It may be brutally honest, but the world is tough.
This coupled with being a dropout. quitting job after job, and basically phising executives for attention makes this candidate a high risk hire and is not worth the time.
Poster: You will need to extend your hard skills and demonstrate why a group should take the risk of your background on. It may be brutally honest, but the world is tough.
In fairness, by the time someone makes a forum post like this, they are probably at the frustrated angry rant stage.
What is lacking however (and what seems to impact the opinion of many here negatively) is the total lack of self reflectivity.
E.g. the previous jobs at the 3 big companies. Why did OP stop working there? Who ended the contract and why? If OP quit themselves, we lack any reason to understand why and whether this was a good idea in hindsight.
Similar situation with the spoofing thing: this is an incredibly daring thing to do. A very self reflective person might ask themselves question like: "Maybe that was a mistake? How did the other side perceive this?" — especially after a rejection.
With OP I get two vibes:
1. The issues that lead to them not getting the job they deserve are external. For OP it is out of the question that their behaviour/path they took in the world could have to do with how they are judged. From what I read there is no really rational ground for this confidence.
2. Instead of asking how to change the perception the other side has of them, OP seems to be more interested in the question how they can exploit their way into the position they think they deserve, without putting the leg work and trustbuilding into it.
Technically and stylistically the writing is okay, it just seems to be written from the perspective of someone who didn't follow through on reflecting their own position in the job market and their own flaws when it comes to human interaction.
E.g. the previous jobs at the 3 big companies. Why did OP stop working there? Who ended the contract and why? If OP quit themselves, we lack any reason to understand why and whether this was a good idea in hindsight.
Similar situation with the spoofing thing: this is an incredibly daring thing to do. A very self reflective person might ask themselves question like: "Maybe that was a mistake? How did the other side perceive this?" — especially after a rejection.
With OP I get two vibes:
1. The issues that lead to them not getting the job they deserve are external. For OP it is out of the question that their behaviour/path they took in the world could have to do with how they are judged. From what I read there is no really rational ground for this confidence.
2. Instead of asking how to change the perception the other side has of them, OP seems to be more interested in the question how they can exploit their way into the position they think they deserve, without putting the leg work and trustbuilding into it.
Technically and stylistically the writing is okay, it just seems to be written from the perspective of someone who didn't follow through on reflecting their own position in the job market and their own flaws when it comes to human interaction.
Totally agree, combined with the fact that op seems to focus on big tech giants that are generally hard to get in to is a big red flag.
My advise is to find a smaller company in a "boring field" (think local schools, manufacturing and retail not google/apple) and try to get the most entry level job that's still gives hands on programming / sysadmin experience. Many small help desks let juniors have small side projects improving something specific for example.
My advise is to find a smaller company in a "boring field" (think local schools, manufacturing and retail not google/apple) and try to get the most entry level job that's still gives hands on programming / sysadmin experience. Many small help desks let juniors have small side projects improving something specific for example.
I don't have much experience but that begs me the question, how bad were the SWEs you were working with that had even poorer communication tone than this person.
I agree, I understood his point and the emotions he's probably feeling as it's an HN post, but so many red flags brings up some significant disconnect in the expectations he had of the audience. I hope he's able to get some good advice from this thread, he seems bright.
The writing is disjointed and does not easily flow.
It's too curt and while that's alright for a casual i.e., HN audience, if that's how one communicates in other contexts there will be miscommunication.
It's too curt and while that's alright for a casual i.e., HN audience, if that's how one communicates in other contexts there will be miscommunication.
And you just used "i.e." incorrectly. Congratulations.
Hey snakedoctor! You're probably not a sociopathic, autistic, illiterate narcissist like everyone here is telling you. For one, your writing is just fine, and beyond that any of your bad decisions can simply be explained by youth and (understandable) desperation.
I would suggest staying away from HN for life advice. People here might have some money but, aside from that, they are mostly low-intelligence failures.
Hey snakedoctor! You're probably not a sociopathic, autistic, illiterate narcissist like everyone here is telling you. For one, your writing is just fine, and beyond that any of your bad decisions can simply be explained by youth and (understandable) desperation.
I would suggest staying away from HN for life advice. People here might have some money but, aside from that, they are mostly low-intelligence failures.
I wouldn't hire William Gibson tbh.
exactly... his writing is fine.
Given the relative lack of experience and lack of education I'm wondering how OP managed to get interviews at the likes of Google, FB, etc.
That's baffling to me too. There are kids over at /r/csmajors who haven't had this many interviews with this array of companies at this caliber.
> There is no reason anyone would currently hire you, unless you are personable and fun to talk to.
Perhaps my personal bias, but for a long time I was under impression that tech roles companies are hiring people based on their capacity to actually do the job. It's not social studies for G's sake.
Over the course of my life I've come across extremely talented people, who yea, do lack social skills , not putting fake smiles and whatnot. Few of them were the best hires I did.
Perhaps my personal bias, but for a long time I was under impression that tech roles companies are hiring people based on their capacity to actually do the job. It's not social studies for G's sake.
Over the course of my life I've come across extremely talented people, who yea, do lack social skills , not putting fake smiles and whatnot. Few of them were the best hires I did.
These days software development is a team sport. Yeah, there’s the odd outlier extreme genius, but in general, you need to be able to communicate with other humans.
That doesn’t mean you need to be an extrovert, just that the old “weird dev that abhors human contact” stereotype just doesn’t fly anymore.
If you are asking about getting a job, you need to be able to work with other people. End of story.
That doesn’t mean you need to be an extrovert, just that the old “weird dev that abhors human contact” stereotype just doesn’t fly anymore.
If you are asking about getting a job, you need to be able to work with other people. End of story.
> companies are hiring people based on their capacity to actually do the job
I think that's what honkycat was trying to say. OP doesn't sound like someone who actually has the skills for a dev job. So the only way they could get a dev job was if they somehow appeared really likeable so they would be hired despite lacking the required skills.
(In my experience socially awkward people don't have trouble finding jobs if they have the right skills. Every tech meetup I've been to there were loads and loads of socially awkward developers who worked at all kinds of tech companies. Lacking social skills is only an issue if you don't have any technical skills to make up for it.)
I think that's what honkycat was trying to say. OP doesn't sound like someone who actually has the skills for a dev job. So the only way they could get a dev job was if they somehow appeared really likeable so they would be hired despite lacking the required skills.
(In my experience socially awkward people don't have trouble finding jobs if they have the right skills. Every tech meetup I've been to there were loads and loads of socially awkward developers who worked at all kinds of tech companies. Lacking social skills is only an issue if you don't have any technical skills to make up for it.)
> OP doesn't sound like someone who actually has the skills for a dev job.
If you pardon me, I doubt either of us have the senses to judge someone's capacity for dev job. He may not be very lucid at explanations, but it doesn't allow us to measure his dev capacity. Hopefully you'd agree we need slightly more to evaluate that.
If you pardon me, I doubt either of us have the senses to judge someone's capacity for dev job. He may not be very lucid at explanations, but it doesn't allow us to measure his dev capacity. Hopefully you'd agree we need slightly more to evaluate that.
The point being made is the lucidity of explanation is part of the dev job. We aren't all just code monkeys, typing out programs for 8 hours straight every day.
Being able to design, describe, explain, and critique in a way that doesn't make everyone at your company resent you is far more important than any dev hard skill.
Being able to design, describe, explain, and critique in a way that doesn't make everyone at your company resent you is far more important than any dev hard skill.
I really don't think OP has the required skills for a dev job. It's not just the writing style, it's also the complete lack of any relevant education or experience.
I didn't say anything about their mental capacity, it's quite possible that they learn the skills.
I didn't say anything about their mental capacity, it's quite possible that they learn the skills.
Not to be argumentative. But yes, I did attend college. Send me a email, and I'll send you an email from my college email address (Hasn't been deactivited yet). I can send you my college transcript if that helps.. Well, I did get hired by IBM as a programmer so... I've contributed to a GNU open source project.. So I feel that I am qualifed for a entry level developer/SecEng/Security Analyst role.
I went above my bosses head because they did not remedy the issue, and weren't going to.. The SVP guy that I did contact told me that would be willing to vouch for me that I did find a security vuln etc. He was actually quite receptive. I shouldn't of even had to, or felt like I had to go above my bosses head. There should've been a security email I could've emailed. That was at EA. At Amazon I emailed the VP in charge of the anti-fraud system since it might've taken longer for the blue team to send it to the right folks. But yeah, I do agree with you slighty on that.
I went above my bosses head because they did not remedy the issue, and weren't going to.. The SVP guy that I did contact told me that would be willing to vouch for me that I did find a security vuln etc. He was actually quite receptive. I shouldn't of even had to, or felt like I had to go above my bosses head. There should've been a security email I could've emailed. That was at EA. At Amazon I emailed the VP in charge of the anti-fraud system since it might've taken longer for the blue team to send it to the right folks. But yeah, I do agree with you slighty on that.
When responding to a comment that asserts your writing is not strong you'd want to read, re-read, and re-re-read your reply to ensure it is well written. You seem to have not done that, which lends credence to the parent's comment.
My take is you seem to have an inflated sense of your abilities. I've interviewed people who share this trait and it's a turn off unless they have a portfolio of work to back it up.
Perhaps try taking a more humble approach. Ask lots of questions as to what/where they need help. If they align with your experience then share concrete examples of how you've helped others in those same situations. If you haven't, make note of the challenges and see if you can identify patterns across interviews. This would provide hints as to what skill-building you could focus on in the interim.
Good luck!
My take is you seem to have an inflated sense of your abilities. I've interviewed people who share this trait and it's a turn off unless they have a portfolio of work to back it up.
Perhaps try taking a more humble approach. Ask lots of questions as to what/where they need help. If they align with your experience then share concrete examples of how you've helped others in those same situations. If you haven't, make note of the challenges and see if you can identify patterns across interviews. This would provide hints as to what skill-building you could focus on in the interim.
Good luck!
Good point, but snakedoctor did set this in motion by asking for candid feedback. Ostensibly, he wants to receive and integrate feedback. Seems like the sort of thing a smart kid would aim for. Part of me feels like in a decade people will reference this thread in the same way we reference the shellacking of Dropbox back in the day. It takes a cosmic-sized ego to ask HN to give you advice about why no company will accept that your cosmic-sized ego is justified. But what if the kid is right in his self-evaluation, but has enough self-awareness to critically question his self-evaluation and ask others to do the same? That’s kind of a powerful combination.
Or maybe he just kills himself because he's close to being homeless already and a few hundred assholes just told him that he's a hopeless, narcissistic, uneducated "creep"?
Snakedoctor, I think this whole thread says a lot more about Hacker News and its penchant for armchair psychology and condescension than it does about you and your future prospects.
There's a few helpful posts here... take what you can and go out and seize the day! I am routing for you.
Snakedoctor, I think this whole thread says a lot more about Hacker News and its penchant for armchair psychology and condescension than it does about you and your future prospects.
There's a few helpful posts here... take what you can and go out and seize the day! I am routing for you.
It’s actually kind of impressive to me that so many people want to try and help though. Even if their judgment and advice is wrong (which is likely due to the fact that we really know nothing about this guy), it still gives me a little bit of hope in humanity that people care about some random stranger they’ve never met. Most responses seem genuine rather than self-serving,
Thank you! My point exactly. This is ugly as hell. So many brilliant developers and tech minds congregating to judge someone going through a sad time in their life based on an emotional post to some web forum.
[deleted]
Calm down, I know plenty of talented developers at FAANGxyz companies who are less articulate and have weaker writing skills compared to OP (at least in the post you're replying to, I do agree the original post was a bit off, but clearly it was written in some type of emotional state.. you know with his calling himself unhirable and all.)
It seems that a lot of people replying here never understood the phrase "don't just a book by its cover". So many people are opining about OPs character in definite, and it's just unpleasant to witness. Sure, the whole calling VPs directly thing is a bad idea, and definitely inappropriate, but I can understand someone feeling like they're doing the right thing to advocate for an issue they see to be impactful. I wish I could CC this to all the people postulating OPs universal lack of empathy. I agree that he could benefit from therapy, because honestly we all can benefit from therapy; but all the posts implying he needs to be medicated or psychoanalyzed are reprehensible. I see someone who is upset with where they are, so they wrote a post conveying that in a slightly conceited way, yet so many talented minds in the field of tech are coming to this post to say that he has delusions of grandeur.
He is the book, and this post along with the comments he's making are the cover. You can give advice on what's presented without insulting his character.
It seems that a lot of people replying here never understood the phrase "don't just a book by its cover". So many people are opining about OPs character in definite, and it's just unpleasant to witness. Sure, the whole calling VPs directly thing is a bad idea, and definitely inappropriate, but I can understand someone feeling like they're doing the right thing to advocate for an issue they see to be impactful. I wish I could CC this to all the people postulating OPs universal lack of empathy. I agree that he could benefit from therapy, because honestly we all can benefit from therapy; but all the posts implying he needs to be medicated or psychoanalyzed are reprehensible. I see someone who is upset with where they are, so they wrote a post conveying that in a slightly conceited way, yet so many talented minds in the field of tech are coming to this post to say that he has delusions of grandeur.
He is the book, and this post along with the comments he's making are the cover. You can give advice on what's presented without insulting his character.
[deleted]
Gentle tip: writing "shouldn't of" instead "shouldn't have" is one of those critical writing misteaks one should never make when communicating with educated people. Some others worth special effort to do correctly:
1. their there they're
2. its it's
3. your you're
A couple other writing tips:
1. don't terminate sentences with .. or ...
2. "bosses" is plural, I think you meant "boss's" for the possessive
I know it sounds elitist, and it is, but with these kinds of mistakes their going to relegate you to the "not one of us" bin when looking for a well paying job.
It's well worth the effort to purge them from you're writing.
1. their there they're
2. its it's
3. your you're
A couple other writing tips:
1. don't terminate sentences with .. or ...
2. "bosses" is plural, I think you meant "boss's" for the possessive
I know it sounds elitist, and it is, but with these kinds of mistakes their going to relegate you to the "not one of us" bin when looking for a well paying job.
It's well worth the effort to purge them from you're writing.
> writing "shouldn't of" instead "shouldn't have"
For me personally, this is the #1 bugbear of writing mistakes. I'm willing to tolerate most of the other failures (especially when they're exceptionally rare), especially because several of them can crop up when you decide to change the sentence between initial mental conception and committing to paper or keyboard.
> I know it sounds elitist, and it is, but with these kinds of mistakes their going to relegate you to the "not one of us" bin when looking for a well paying job.
It's not so much the "not one of us" bin as it is a sense of "you clearly can't put in the effort, so why should we?" It's for similar reasons that you are advised to dress up for interviews.
For me personally, this is the #1 bugbear of writing mistakes. I'm willing to tolerate most of the other failures (especially when they're exceptionally rare), especially because several of them can crop up when you decide to change the sentence between initial mental conception and committing to paper or keyboard.
> I know it sounds elitist, and it is, but with these kinds of mistakes their going to relegate you to the "not one of us" bin when looking for a well paying job.
It's not so much the "not one of us" bin as it is a sense of "you clearly can't put in the effort, so why should we?" It's for similar reasons that you are advised to dress up for interviews.
The irony of correcting others when you yourself have several writing mistakes.
Your right... I'm checking to see if he accidently out any words... two bad, I didn't notice any. (also... whoosh!)
> misteaks
Har har.
Har har.
> 1. don't terminate sentences with .. or ...
Why not? 'Do you prefer C or Rust?' 'Would you like paper or plastic?' Perhaps I misunderstand.
Why not? 'Do you prefer C or Rust?' 'Would you like paper or plastic?' Perhaps I misunderstand.
Not sure where you got the question marks from, but he's talking about ellipses (two or three periods in a row, like '...'). It's actually a stylistic choice and there's nothing inherently wrong with using it, but it is generally considered unprofessional and overuse is extremely annoying for readers.
I misunderstood what the GGP was referring to. As far as I know, ending a sentence with ellipses is considered improper English except for some special cases.
It's interesting how focused you are on proving yourself right (I'll send you a college email etc).
And that seems to be the case with going over your bosses head ("I went above my bosses head because they did not remedy the issue, and weren't going to.")
Being right is great! But having a job is also great. Perhaps focus less on proving yourself right, and more on getting along with people?
Edit: reading further in the thread it sounds like you went over your bosses head 2 weeks into a job? That's really not a great idea.
And that seems to be the case with going over your bosses head ("I went above my bosses head because they did not remedy the issue, and weren't going to.")
Being right is great! But having a job is also great. Perhaps focus less on proving yourself right, and more on getting along with people?
Edit: reading further in the thread it sounds like you went over your bosses head 2 weeks into a job? That's really not a great idea.
It's a really tough lesson to learn but this is absolutely true: It is not enough to be right, you must also have credibility. You usually have to accept other people being wrong about things you're right about in order to build credibility.
> You usually have to accept other people being wrong about things you're right about in order to build credibility.
I don’t think this is the correct way to look at it. Rather than accepting other people being wrong, you should be very open to the possibility that it’s you who is wrong. Always doubt your own assumptions, and be willing to change your stance when new information comes to light.
I don’t think this is the correct way to look at it. Rather than accepting other people being wrong, you should be very open to the possibility that it’s you who is wrong. Always doubt your own assumptions, and be willing to change your stance when new information comes to light.
I think you absolutely need to be open to being wrong about things.
But that's independent to building enough credibility to be able to speak truth to power.
But that's independent to building enough credibility to be able to speak truth to power.
I think my quote would be better if it said "often" or "sometimes" instead of "usually". But no, I disagree with your point here, I mean, that's true too, but it's not what I was talking about. I'm saying that in order to build up a lot of credibility, you have to be right, tell people the right thing, but actually not fight them when they disagree and go a different way. If you were actually right and they were actually wrong, they will know and remember and trust you more in the future. Doing variations of this for a long time in view of a lot of people is one of the places credibility comes from. But you actually do need to pick fewer battles and let more wrong decisions go, even when you are actually right. That's part of the lesson that has to be learned when you don't have the power. It isn't enough to be right, you have to be trusted by the people who make decisions, and for that you have to build credibility.
I can only speak to infosec roles. If that's the route you want to go I think you'll be fine once your experience and skills catch up with your demeanor and confidence. It sounds like you can be a bit of an asshole and create messes for your management, which is morally ambivalent but can interfere with your ability to collect income.
I'd recommend aiming a little lower and a little smaller in the jobs you're applying for. Maybe try entry level spot at a regional bank/hospital/edu and in the interim working on skilling up in more tangible ways (e.g. bug bounties, GitHub projects and it never hurts to pick up a specialty). You have no degree so think of this as a 2-3 year plan to substitute it with experience before going for what you're after.
Good luck dude. You've got some very valuable raw materials, they just need refined a bit and you'll be a beast!
I'd recommend aiming a little lower and a little smaller in the jobs you're applying for. Maybe try entry level spot at a regional bank/hospital/edu and in the interim working on skilling up in more tangible ways (e.g. bug bounties, GitHub projects and it never hurts to pick up a specialty). You have no degree so think of this as a 2-3 year plan to substitute it with experience before going for what you're after.
Good luck dude. You've got some very valuable raw materials, they just need refined a bit and you'll be a beast!
You seem driven and interested which is good. Keep contributing to open source and you'll probably land something. I still think you need to rethink your strategy though.
Re: going over your bosses head: Where is your sense of self preservation? Also, why do you think nobody else will do their job?
Is the fraud system YOUR problem? Then do your due diligence, mark it as someone elses problem, and let it ride.
You gotta suck up to your boss a bit. Going over their head is provoking them!
Re: going over your bosses head: Where is your sense of self preservation? Also, why do you think nobody else will do their job?
Is the fraud system YOUR problem? Then do your due diligence, mark it as someone elses problem, and let it ride.
You gotta suck up to your boss a bit. Going over their head is provoking them!
> Not to be argumentative. But yes, I did attend college.
Your claim may be technically correct. I am willing to believe you did attend a college for some period of time. However, it is nonresponsive. GP was claiming that your writing does not reflect the skills in writing that you are expected to develop as a college attendee. This is understandable; dropping out during/after freshmen year does not give your writing time to progress.
I care about your education because of what you learned, not because your acceptance is an excellent proxy for your SAT scores. (This is the same reason that your short stint as an IBM developer means less than you seem to believe it does.)
It's not the argumentative nature of your post that would be a red flag to me, it is the complete misunderstanding of the issue being raised.
Your claim may be technically correct. I am willing to believe you did attend a college for some period of time. However, it is nonresponsive. GP was claiming that your writing does not reflect the skills in writing that you are expected to develop as a college attendee. This is understandable; dropping out during/after freshmen year does not give your writing time to progress.
I care about your education because of what you learned, not because your acceptance is an excellent proxy for your SAT scores. (This is the same reason that your short stint as an IBM developer means less than you seem to believe it does.)
It's not the argumentative nature of your post that would be a red flag to me, it is the complete misunderstanding of the issue being raised.
Having some code on Github is helpful when looking for a job.
I see the problem. Most entry level programming jobs today either require a college degree, or they're for very low level web programming. Now, if you're competent at making basic web sites and the front end or back end of a business application, that's a saleable skill. Although one that several million other people already have. Also realize that about half the job is figuring out what the customer (your boss, probably) really wants.
If you hung around a research environment, and you know a little programming, did some soldering, and know which end of a capacitor is positive, but didn't go to college, that's not really a saleable skill set any more. In 1980 it sometimes was.
Useful reading: https://daedtech.com/programming-job-without-degree/
I see the problem. Most entry level programming jobs today either require a college degree, or they're for very low level web programming. Now, if you're competent at making basic web sites and the front end or back end of a business application, that's a saleable skill. Although one that several million other people already have. Also realize that about half the job is figuring out what the customer (your boss, probably) really wants.
If you hung around a research environment, and you know a little programming, did some soldering, and know which end of a capacitor is positive, but didn't go to college, that's not really a saleable skill set any more. In 1980 it sometimes was.
Useful reading: https://daedtech.com/programming-job-without-degree/
The problem now is that you likely can't use either of those managers that you went over the heads of as references for future jobs (they may not say nice things).
Not trying to argue either. Contributing to an open-source project is a very different kind of activity from being a member of a team at a company. Programming is only half the job.
Hi Snakedoctor. I've been quite fascinated by this thread. I have a small piece of feedback for you, as someone who's interviewed about 200-300 engineers over my career I've talked to a lot of people and feel like I have at least something of value to add.
I hope you're not offering these sorts of hyperbolic "proofs" of your competency to your interviewers, like you've done here. I've seen a few comments from you like this. Anyone who feels the need to go that far out of their way to prove how smart they are... probably aren't as smart as they think they are. It also does come off as narcissistic.
I get that you have accomplished some cool things in your career so far, but you have to let people evaluate those accomplishments for themselves. They may be very impressive to you, but might not make the slightest difference in the context of the role you're applying for. If people ask about them, be ready to tell. If they don't ask, don't go out of your way to point them out, they're not pertinent to the role. They're on your CV, that's enough.
You do a lot of pointing these accomplishments out (I worked for IBM / I contribute to GNU / I went to college / I got this and that job), but... here you are. Unemployed. Which only leaves two possible explanations; You're either not being forthcoming about your accomplishments (exaggerating them or simply lying), or there's something else, something very negative that means that despite your achievements, you still can't hold a job.
So, you have to be brutally honest with yourself and ask yourself; What is that thing? Only you can answer that question.
Finally, I want to give you a reality check on those accomplishments. They might not be as large as you think. Big, noteworthy accomplishments take years to complete. Completing a masters degree, getting a PhD, working up to a senior position in a company, learning a language, raising a child, building a house. It sounds like most of your achievements did not require the investment of time, but rather are trophies to commemorate your greatness. Companies want people who persevere, and get stuff done, and stick with it. The type of accomplishments you've mentioned show none of that, and your career progression shows the complete opposite.
I hope you make something constructive out of my comments, and use them to improve your approach to interview. In short, I'd recommend a more humble approach, apply for a role suitable to your level, don't try to outsmart the interviewer, or your co-workers when you get hired, and fulfill the job you've been assigned, not the one you wish you had. So no level-jumping over your bosses to make smart comments; that won't help you... I speak from experience, and it took me a long time to understand that a good employee is just someone who makes their managers life easier, by completing their tasks and making sure stuff gets done.
I hope you're not offering these sorts of hyperbolic "proofs" of your competency to your interviewers, like you've done here. I've seen a few comments from you like this. Anyone who feels the need to go that far out of their way to prove how smart they are... probably aren't as smart as they think they are. It also does come off as narcissistic.
I get that you have accomplished some cool things in your career so far, but you have to let people evaluate those accomplishments for themselves. They may be very impressive to you, but might not make the slightest difference in the context of the role you're applying for. If people ask about them, be ready to tell. If they don't ask, don't go out of your way to point them out, they're not pertinent to the role. They're on your CV, that's enough.
You do a lot of pointing these accomplishments out (I worked for IBM / I contribute to GNU / I went to college / I got this and that job), but... here you are. Unemployed. Which only leaves two possible explanations; You're either not being forthcoming about your accomplishments (exaggerating them or simply lying), or there's something else, something very negative that means that despite your achievements, you still can't hold a job.
So, you have to be brutally honest with yourself and ask yourself; What is that thing? Only you can answer that question.
Finally, I want to give you a reality check on those accomplishments. They might not be as large as you think. Big, noteworthy accomplishments take years to complete. Completing a masters degree, getting a PhD, working up to a senior position in a company, learning a language, raising a child, building a house. It sounds like most of your achievements did not require the investment of time, but rather are trophies to commemorate your greatness. Companies want people who persevere, and get stuff done, and stick with it. The type of accomplishments you've mentioned show none of that, and your career progression shows the complete opposite.
I hope you make something constructive out of my comments, and use them to improve your approach to interview. In short, I'd recommend a more humble approach, apply for a role suitable to your level, don't try to outsmart the interviewer, or your co-workers when you get hired, and fulfill the job you've been assigned, not the one you wish you had. So no level-jumping over your bosses to make smart comments; that won't help you... I speak from experience, and it took me a long time to understand that a good employee is just someone who makes their managers life easier, by completing their tasks and making sure stuff gets done.
What a great reply, needs to be higher up.
Out of curiosity, how would you view a younger candidate (myself) who dropped out of a similar T40 school junior year with a boatload of personal projects / companies under his belt?
I've had some success, and reached quite a few people, but I'm realizing I may need to settle down at a company sometime soon. I don't want to look unhirable (like OP, in my opinion) but just someone whose genuinely burned out of really trying to make a startup work, and is now ready to settle down in a junior position, and has the ability to do so. Thanks!
Out of curiosity, how would you view a younger candidate (myself) who dropped out of a similar T40 school junior year with a boatload of personal projects / companies under his belt?
I've had some success, and reached quite a few people, but I'm realizing I may need to settle down at a company sometime soon. I don't want to look unhirable (like OP, in my opinion) but just someone whose genuinely burned out of really trying to make a startup work, and is now ready to settle down in a junior position, and has the ability to do so. Thanks!
It's tough to read too much into this single paragraph. I think the key is why you dropped out of school. You need to have a narrative.
1. "I had some promising personal projects, so I quit during my 3rd year of school to launch one of them. I did {X,Y,Z} but ultimately couldn't turn the corner to profitability so I shut down / failed spectacularly. Now it's time to get my feet under me and learn proper engineering for a few years before I try again." --> This is a good story, but needs to be backed up by data regarding your startup failure.
OR
2. "I was tired of school and quit. I had a bunch of personal projects going and hoped to start one of them into a company but none of them really went anywhere." --> This is a bad story. If this is your situation, you may need to suck it up and go back to school to finish your degree. Otherwise you'll need to be incredibly honest with the interviewer about why dropping out was a bad decision.
OR
3. "I had to drop out of school for <personal reasons>. I've done a bunch of personal projects, so I have the passion and basic technical competence to succeed. I'd like to eventually finish my degree someday." (<--Note: doesn't matter if this is really true) "My focus now is to really engage somewhere for a few years to prove my worth and learn from other smart people." --> Another good story. Shows humility.
Your biggest risk here will be overplaying your past projects. From a Hiring Manager perspective they're interesting technical toys like a university project, but since they didn't go anywhere they don't mean that much. Not fair, but true. Also: stay FAR AWAY from the word "burnout", because this telegraphs "I have issues and won't be able to do my job."
Communicating that you made a mistake and now want to learn in a better environment for a few years helps de-risk you to the hiring manager and shows good self-awareness.
1. "I had some promising personal projects, so I quit during my 3rd year of school to launch one of them. I did {X,Y,Z} but ultimately couldn't turn the corner to profitability so I shut down / failed spectacularly. Now it's time to get my feet under me and learn proper engineering for a few years before I try again." --> This is a good story, but needs to be backed up by data regarding your startup failure.
OR
2. "I was tired of school and quit. I had a bunch of personal projects going and hoped to start one of them into a company but none of them really went anywhere." --> This is a bad story. If this is your situation, you may need to suck it up and go back to school to finish your degree. Otherwise you'll need to be incredibly honest with the interviewer about why dropping out was a bad decision.
OR
3. "I had to drop out of school for <personal reasons>. I've done a bunch of personal projects, so I have the passion and basic technical competence to succeed. I'd like to eventually finish my degree someday." (<--Note: doesn't matter if this is really true) "My focus now is to really engage somewhere for a few years to prove my worth and learn from other smart people." --> Another good story. Shows humility.
Your biggest risk here will be overplaying your past projects. From a Hiring Manager perspective they're interesting technical toys like a university project, but since they didn't go anywhere they don't mean that much. Not fair, but true. Also: stay FAR AWAY from the word "burnout", because this telegraphs "I have issues and won't be able to do my job."
Communicating that you made a mistake and now want to learn in a better environment for a few years helps de-risk you to the hiring manager and shows good self-awareness.
Ah thanks for the reply, and yeah that makes sense. I don't believe it was a mistake as of now, but let me tell my story a bit better:
I got funded by Tyler Cowen / Peter Thiel @ EV and some angels for my first real company (can't link here), and while it wasn't required, I was making quite a bit of money so I left school. (I had a 3.98 my first 2 years in dual Comp Sci / Physics before, so I left with a 3.35 GPA after tanking junior year due to the company)
The unit metrics didn't end up working out, so i've been working on various products since with ~10k users on my previous one. (On my profile, if you care) It's a social app without huge growth though, so i'm not optimistic.
I have one more company i'm building with a friend now in a regulated space before I start recruiting. If this doesn't work out, I need to focus my energy on recruiting for a space i'm passionate about. I've built and launched over 20 websites and IOS / Android apps, and i'm the fastest React / React Native developer I know.
Would that sound batshit insane to recruiters, or someone perhaps worth picking up? I've also done a SE internship at a F400, tutored Engineering Physics, and done some freelancing w/ a 5.00 rating on Upwork if that matters. Thanks.
I got funded by Tyler Cowen / Peter Thiel @ EV and some angels for my first real company (can't link here), and while it wasn't required, I was making quite a bit of money so I left school. (I had a 3.98 my first 2 years in dual Comp Sci / Physics before, so I left with a 3.35 GPA after tanking junior year due to the company)
The unit metrics didn't end up working out, so i've been working on various products since with ~10k users on my previous one. (On my profile, if you care) It's a social app without huge growth though, so i'm not optimistic.
I have one more company i'm building with a friend now in a regulated space before I start recruiting. If this doesn't work out, I need to focus my energy on recruiting for a space i'm passionate about. I've built and launched over 20 websites and IOS / Android apps, and i'm the fastest React / React Native developer I know.
Would that sound batshit insane to recruiters, or someone perhaps worth picking up? I've also done a SE internship at a F400, tutored Engineering Physics, and done some freelancing w/ a 5.00 rating on Upwork if that matters. Thanks.
Ok cool. With this write-up, you de-risked one area and added risk in a second area.
GOOD: High GPA, got funded, ambitious, quit school for valid and rational reasons. I'm excited to hire you.
BAD: Startup didn't work, I worked on some other ones, trying one more time before I get a normal job. Now I'm concerned that (a) you think you're hot shiz and won't accept an entry-level dev role and/or won't be willing to put the effort into that role, or (b) you think you're mid-level but can't pass the hiring bar due to team (not technical) deficiencies, or (c) you'll be awesome but bounce out to a new adventure in ~9 months.
I don't know you, and it's quite possible that you're brilliant with a steep growth curve and huge upside potential. And it's possible (maybe even likely!) that you'll be unhappy in any job and just need to keep pursuing your own thing. Awesome. But if you want a "normal job" I recommend shifting your approach slightly:
Remember that a hiring manager wants a person who can (1) do the job, (2) not cause problems, (3) stick around. You've got #1 nailed, #2 is an open question, and #3 is a big risk in my mind. So I'd suggest starting by making a personal choice regarding your next career stage and then actively believing and selling that vision. So if you decide that you want to work for a while, figure out what you want to get out of that time and push that narrative. Example:
"I got funded by... <rest of your credentials here>. I tried a few other ventures but failed to get traction. I've decided that for my next career stage, I need to spend some time working with other more experienced engineers to learn {large scale engineering, team dynamics, product prioritization, leadership, etc etc whatever}." --> With this narrative you're a very attractive candidate. A good manager will know that you're not signing on forever, but will throw challenging projects your way in the hopes that rapid growth will convince you to stick around for 2-3 years.
Note that your history of scrappy risk-taking will probably play better at smaller earlier stage companies.
GOOD: High GPA, got funded, ambitious, quit school for valid and rational reasons. I'm excited to hire you.
BAD: Startup didn't work, I worked on some other ones, trying one more time before I get a normal job. Now I'm concerned that (a) you think you're hot shiz and won't accept an entry-level dev role and/or won't be willing to put the effort into that role, or (b) you think you're mid-level but can't pass the hiring bar due to team (not technical) deficiencies, or (c) you'll be awesome but bounce out to a new adventure in ~9 months.
I don't know you, and it's quite possible that you're brilliant with a steep growth curve and huge upside potential. And it's possible (maybe even likely!) that you'll be unhappy in any job and just need to keep pursuing your own thing. Awesome. But if you want a "normal job" I recommend shifting your approach slightly:
Remember that a hiring manager wants a person who can (1) do the job, (2) not cause problems, (3) stick around. You've got #1 nailed, #2 is an open question, and #3 is a big risk in my mind. So I'd suggest starting by making a personal choice regarding your next career stage and then actively believing and selling that vision. So if you decide that you want to work for a while, figure out what you want to get out of that time and push that narrative. Example:
"I got funded by... <rest of your credentials here>. I tried a few other ventures but failed to get traction. I've decided that for my next career stage, I need to spend some time working with other more experienced engineers to learn {large scale engineering, team dynamics, product prioritization, leadership, etc etc whatever}." --> With this narrative you're a very attractive candidate. A good manager will know that you're not signing on forever, but will throw challenging projects your way in the hopes that rapid growth will convince you to stick around for 2-3 years.
Note that your history of scrappy risk-taking will probably play better at smaller earlier stage companies.
Thank you so much for this reply. This is very helpful, I really appreciate it.
Just a suggestion, complete your degree even if it takes you years to do so. Consider continuing to take classes. I worked early in my 20s was doing undergrad simultaneously. It became exhausting and also wanted to have a free social life. I started making enough money and didn't feel the degree was actively helping me at the time. I'm glad I took the break I did, I think I needed it. Then I continued after a two years break and competed the degree p/t in the course of the next few years. Interesting CS courses and the slower volume made it for an even greater experience, I could enjoy taking 2 classes a semester while having a social life too. The college diploma may seem like a dead weight as it's not a bid deal as Undergrad education is not what it used to be but it is a clear differentiator in obtaining a job, if you and a potential candidate have similar skills, the one with the degree would get an advantage. Good luck!
[deleted]
Sir, an inquiring mind wants to know: have you ever hired anyone who had more noteworthy accomplishments than yourself? And what have your hires gone on to do? Do they excel in life or in just making their managers life easier?
There's a pretty good behavioral / soft skills interview question hanging out in your post:
"Think of a scenario where you find a security vulnerability [or crasher bug, or whatever], and you don't think it is being taken as seriously as it should be. How would you handle this situaton?"
There are a lot of good ways to approach this, but "escalate it to the SVP" is rarely one of them.
"Think of a scenario where you find a security vulnerability [or crasher bug, or whatever], and you don't think it is being taken as seriously as it should be. How would you handle this situaton?"
There are a lot of good ways to approach this, but "escalate it to the SVP" is rarely one of them.
> i can tell you did not attend college.
I minored in English, and OP writes better than most of the English majors I was in writing workshops with.
edit: To elaborate, this was at a local university in a U.S. city where 70% of the population were native English speakers. None of the people in my writing workshops were ESL.
I minored in English, and OP writes better than most of the English majors I was in writing workshops with.
edit: To elaborate, this was at a local university in a U.S. city where 70% of the population were native English speakers. None of the people in my writing workshops were ESL.
I remember the largest contribution I provided my senior project for my bachelor's degree was correcting group members' usage of there/their/they're. Definitely can confirm college does not mean one can write.
> Your writing is not strong, i can tell you did not attend college. Written communication is important in tech.
> Your applying to those companies with 0 experience or college degree is unrealistic.
Such irony.
Such irony.
[deleted]
>Your writing is not strong
Followed by
>Your applying to those companies
instead of "you are" or "you're"
Cut him some slack.
Followed by
>Your applying to those companies
instead of "you are" or "you're"
Cut him some slack.
If you read the rest of the sentence GP was correct
First off, your HN submission history is really weird, dude. (https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=snakedoctor)
If you get a job in customer support at Amazon there is literally no way to get a 'promotion' to a dev role. It's different parts of the org, and you're tarnished with being a CS person. Why? Because it's signaling - people who can do eng roles at Amazon don't take CS roles so they don't bother mining to check on the rare chance someone in CS can.
In your replies you say "I haven't lasted anywhere longer than 2 months. I contribute a lot and then quit after I feel like I'm not getting appropriate compensation."
If your resume reflects that you've bounced around after a few months as a hiring manager I'm not even going to bother offering you an interview.
You also said your were home schooled and many people here have commented you might have social skill issues. I am not a doctor but I wonder if you have delusions of grandeur around your abilities which is creating a miss-match of expectation leading you to quit jobs you need to tough it out in. Or you have dyslexia or another learning difficulty (I have dyslexia, I quit school, never went to university, did many shit jobs to work my way up, it took years and years)
I would suggest you find someone who is an actual hiring manager to give you a mock interview and analyze their feedback. If you can't find someone closer in your circle, I'll give you mock 30 minute interview (I've hired countless engineers, designers, PMs and other roles in the last 20+ years)
If you want a career in tech you do need to get out of the wrong swim-lane, which a CS role at Amazon is the wrong lane as it will never convert to where you want it to go.
If you get a job in customer support at Amazon there is literally no way to get a 'promotion' to a dev role. It's different parts of the org, and you're tarnished with being a CS person. Why? Because it's signaling - people who can do eng roles at Amazon don't take CS roles so they don't bother mining to check on the rare chance someone in CS can.
In your replies you say "I haven't lasted anywhere longer than 2 months. I contribute a lot and then quit after I feel like I'm not getting appropriate compensation."
If your resume reflects that you've bounced around after a few months as a hiring manager I'm not even going to bother offering you an interview.
You also said your were home schooled and many people here have commented you might have social skill issues. I am not a doctor but I wonder if you have delusions of grandeur around your abilities which is creating a miss-match of expectation leading you to quit jobs you need to tough it out in. Or you have dyslexia or another learning difficulty (I have dyslexia, I quit school, never went to university, did many shit jobs to work my way up, it took years and years)
I would suggest you find someone who is an actual hiring manager to give you a mock interview and analyze their feedback. If you can't find someone closer in your circle, I'll give you mock 30 minute interview (I've hired countless engineers, designers, PMs and other roles in the last 20+ years)
If you want a career in tech you do need to get out of the wrong swim-lane, which a CS role at Amazon is the wrong lane as it will never convert to where you want it to go.
> wonder if you have delusions of grandeur around your abilities which is creating a miss-match of expectation leading you to quit jobs you need to tough it out in.
Not a doctor either, but I would agree with this. OP seems to have a disconnect between what reality and the old days of the first bubble where if you could spell programmer, you got a job as one.
It doesn't work like that anymore, OP. Too much competition, too many people with more experience, skill, and education than you. You need to put in the work and rid yourself of any notion that you are entitled to a dev job.
And it's probably my naiveté, but I tend to think the social awkwardness/spectrum issues aren't as strong as people here are saying. This is engineering. There's always been a higher percentage of people on the spectrum than in other fields. At any given job, I'd say about 1/3 of my coworkers are somewhere on the spectrum. I haven't been a job where people who simply have awkward communication skills aren't offered. Now, if they do come across as an arrogant dick, spectrum or not, that's an entirely different issue.
Not a doctor either, but I would agree with this. OP seems to have a disconnect between what reality and the old days of the first bubble where if you could spell programmer, you got a job as one.
It doesn't work like that anymore, OP. Too much competition, too many people with more experience, skill, and education than you. You need to put in the work and rid yourself of any notion that you are entitled to a dev job.
And it's probably my naiveté, but I tend to think the social awkwardness/spectrum issues aren't as strong as people here are saying. This is engineering. There's always been a higher percentage of people on the spectrum than in other fields. At any given job, I'd say about 1/3 of my coworkers are somewhere on the spectrum. I haven't been a job where people who simply have awkward communication skills aren't offered. Now, if they do come across as an arrogant dick, spectrum or not, that's an entirely different issue.
Yes, but as a programmer I'd rather have a mediocre programmer who is a good communicator and who knows how to integrate with the team, than someone who has uncontrolled narcissistic tendecies and oversteps boundaries constantly even if they technically know more.
This has btw. not much to do with being on the spectrum. I also worked with people with disorders which integrated quite well into the team, because they understood the processes and the scope of their position. They all were able to differenciate criticism of their work from criticism of their very being as a person.
This has btw. not much to do with being on the spectrum. I also worked with people with disorders which integrated quite well into the team, because they understood the processes and the scope of their position. They all were able to differenciate criticism of their work from criticism of their very being as a person.
> Yes, but as a programmer I'd rather have a mediocre programmer who is a good communicator and who knows how to integrate with the team
I wholeheartedly agree with this, but fwiw, the FAANG companies OP applies for generally speaking don't. I think the applicable advice is for OP to go work for a smaller company.
I wholeheartedly agree with this, but fwiw, the FAANG companies OP applies for generally speaking don't. I think the applicable advice is for OP to go work for a smaller company.
"I'll give you mock 30 minute interview (I've hired countless engineers, designers, PMs and other roles in the last 20+ years)"
This is an incredibly generous offer and I hope it gets done, because it would BY FAR the most valuable thing that the OP needs.
This is an incredibly generous offer and I hope it gets done, because it would BY FAR the most valuable thing that the OP needs.
I spent almost 2hrs with snakedoctor this evening. He's a smart young man who just needs some pointers and advice as he doesn't really have anyone around him who has experience of landing and keeping a job in tech.
That's awesome! You are a good human being!
This may be the single best thing I’ve ever read on HN; truly awesome and generous for you to have reached out in this way.
snakedoctor, I'm not sure you'll read this, but on the off chance you do, you just got at least $500 worth of interviewing advice. More like $1000-1500+. You'd better make good use of it!
That's extraordinarily generous and super that you actually provided him this opportunity. He clearly needs direction. I hope it works out for him and you get SUPER-brownie points.
What an awesome way to help out. Respect!
What a wonderful thing to do. WP Engine is great, by the way!
Wow man, this just made my day. Good on you.
Props to you for being amazingly empathetic!
Kudos to you!
just wanted to say that you're a good person :)
Bravo!
Thanks, dude. Yeah I was hesitant if I should've accepted the CS offer. I was planning to transfer internally to a SecEng/Analyst/SDE 1 role. It might've been possible. I tried applying internally, but my applications would just turn in to no longer considered after a while. ytcracker works at Amazon.
I sent you an email to take you up on your mock interview offer.
I sent you an email to take you up on your mock interview offer.
At Amazon internal transfers don't work by clicking the "Apply" button. You reach out to the hiring manager first and have a coffee together, then if that goes well they setup the internal loop, if that goes well the hiring manager tells you to apply and you get the job. You don't apply until after you have it.
If you need the money you should probably take any job you could get. Customer support is not exactly a natural stepping stone, but its extremely hard to advance your career if you don't have enough money to survive.
Homeschooled doesn't imply social skill deficit. Sure, some homeschooled kids have social skill issues, but some public school kids also have social skill issues.
In the end, a healthy, non-insular, loving, connected family (either family of origin or a healthy/happy group into which one is welcomed and spends lots of time) is the only necessary requirement for healthy social skills, and it's often sufficient as well.
In the end, a healthy, non-insular, loving, connected family (either family of origin or a healthy/happy group into which one is welcomed and spends lots of time) is the only necessary requirement for healthy social skills, and it's often sufficient as well.
Homeschooling is frequently paired with some degree of insular.
Only in the (few) news stories you read about some sick family; I'm convinced those are hand-picked outliers to reinforce a narrative that homeschooling=bad.
There is no need for a family to be "sick" or not loving for homeschooling to end up being a little insular.
I grew up being home schooled while traveling the world. It definitely resulted in weaker social skills as I lacked long friendships. Making lasting friendships and maintaining relationships is a skill I had to learn later in life.
I grew up being home schooled while traveling the world. It definitely resulted in weaker social skills as I lacked long friendships. Making lasting friendships and maintaining relationships is a skill I had to learn later in life.
[deleted]
Customer support for AWS can convert into other roles pretty easily, just apply for internal transfers for adjacent roles or move into devops etc at another company.
But if you have programming skills, I agree you're far off going directly for dev roles instead.
But if you have programming skills, I agree you're far off going directly for dev roles instead.
For amazon, the move it not to apply formally through the internal jobs site. Clicking apply will notify your manager instantly.
So the accepted practice is to connect directly with the HM for a chat/pre-interview and once they say they are inclined (barring unexpected info), click apply. This is fairly common and expected.
So the accepted practice is to connect directly with the HM for a chat/pre-interview and once they say they are inclined (barring unexpected info), click apply. This is fairly common and expected.
This is typical for internal transfers in large companies, pressing Apply is (almost) the last step.
From the other side of equation as a hiring manager, it's a small negative signal if somebody internal applies "cold", the good candidates tend to reach out first.
From the other side of equation as a hiring manager, it's a small negative signal if somebody internal applies "cold", the good candidates tend to reach out first.
+1
Dont do this at apple though*
*this is hearsay. Maybe up/downvotes can help resolve this?
Dont do this at apple though*
*this is hearsay. Maybe up/downvotes can help resolve this?
Yeah it pings your manager whenever you apply internally. That is an interesting work around. You can see HM/Sourcer/Recruiter for any roles internally. Then just get their contact information via Phone tool.
steps:
1) chime or slack them asking to setup a 30 minute sync about the role.
2) see what they want and if "apply"ing makes sense. If not, figure out your gaps.
Do this 5ish times. See where the gaps are. Work to fill them.
oh and get on blind so you can learn from other people's mistakes :)
Do this 5ish times. See where the gaps are. Work to fill them.
oh and get on blind so you can learn from other people's mistakes :)
[deleted]
> First off, your HN submission history is really weird, dude.
That's creepy and a poor start for giving someone social skills advice.
That's creepy and a poor start for giving someone social skills advice.
I strongly disagree. Going through an anonymous person's social media history just to give social advice sounds appropriate. That is the only input GP could work with.
I'm a software engineer that runs a technical recruiting company. I worked at Microsoft and Netflix for a decade. Email me at robert at facet dot net. I will interview you and tell you why you're not getting hired.
If I ever met you, I'd buy you a coffee. You jumped straight in to help the OP without offering any kind of upfront diagnosis based on the very little information available. The traits are patience and humility. They're valuable and not often found.
Helping other people is actually a tool I use to manage my anxiety. :)
Helps me put my worries in perspective. It works really well!
Helps me put my worries in perspective. It works really well!
Going through comments I almost lost faith into people who do something instead of judging. Apparently there are still some who appreciate it.
That's said, if you guys would have a coffee, I'd be honoured to join you, let alone cover related expenses
That's said, if you guys would have a coffee, I'd be honoured to join you, let alone cover related expenses
Agree 100%, this was a great response amongst this sea of self righteousness and scorn
I agree that the GP's offer is admirable and far better than mere feedback. But this doesn't obviate the value of honest, constructive feedback. His concern is explicitly about the impression he makes on others, therefore our impressions are valid to share with him.
OP this is an amazing opportunity, I would definitely take him up on this offer.
This is refreshing! no grammar analysis, no inferring about mental disorders, no bragging about high ground you are on, not calling creepy, no calling OP over in his head... to me it feels like people are having a field day at OP's expense. OP: I suck!.. 999 people: AHAHA YOU DO BECAUSE YOU SUCK.
I went ahead and signed myself up to your website. The application made me feel like I wasn't supposed to, considering I've never done any of the things it asked if I did, and am just a lowly CS student who doesn't even have a great GPA, and is about to graduate jobless... so I figured I'd take a shot. Very nice signup process. Smooth as butter.
Completely understand if you can't help me, but would love some feedback on my resume at least.
Completely understand if you can't help me, but would love some feedback on my resume at least.
It's refreshing to see a positive comment in the sea of destructive criticism in this thread.
I just offered the same thing, but my opinion isn't worth nearly as much as yours. Thanks for offering something of real value, which I saw only after offering my own, much less valuable, mock-interview. :)
best possible response. I hope you get voted to the top.
Do you do internationally and/or trading firms?
We're only operating in the US right now. I'm not sure what a trading firm is...
I believe that the commenter was referring to quantitative (algorithmic) trading in finance.
Just wanted to say this is really wholesome!
This should be at the top.
So far none of the replies has mentioned this, and it may be unpopular in HN, but:
Seriously consider going back to school and finishing a degree. Although it's "known" that you don't really need a degree for a SW role, there are plenty of well established old school companies that will not consider you at all unless you have a degree. On the flip side, you'll get jobs more easily. A lot of interviewers who choose to interview someone without a degree are doing it "just in case he turns out to be a genius." You are not one (or at least have not shown you are one). Let me be brutally honest: In such companies, you will not get a job if you interview as well as the average candidate who has a degree. Managers don't want to have to justify hiring someone without a degree, and they look worse amongst their peers if a bad hire didn't have a degree than if they did.
> Reading Meyers, Knuth etc. books.
Improving technical skills is always good. However, your role in a company, and your performance, are due to lots of other factors. A person who is average in all areas is generally more desirable than a smart person in one area who is poor in others.
Seriously consider going back to school and finishing a degree. Although it's "known" that you don't really need a degree for a SW role, there are plenty of well established old school companies that will not consider you at all unless you have a degree. On the flip side, you'll get jobs more easily. A lot of interviewers who choose to interview someone without a degree are doing it "just in case he turns out to be a genius." You are not one (or at least have not shown you are one). Let me be brutally honest: In such companies, you will not get a job if you interview as well as the average candidate who has a degree. Managers don't want to have to justify hiring someone without a degree, and they look worse amongst their peers if a bad hire didn't have a degree than if they did.
> Reading Meyers, Knuth etc. books.
Improving technical skills is always good. However, your role in a company, and your performance, are due to lots of other factors. A person who is average in all areas is generally more desirable than a smart person in one area who is poor in others.
I would second this, and also say get any degree. A real accredited CS BS degree is incredibly difficult and time consuming. But a BA can be knocked out in 2 years and makes you infinitely more employable on paper than just a high school graduate for any position.
I'm not sure any random BA can help these days. Anecdotally at least, one of the recurring news stories about Millenials is about how so many can't get jobs with their BA degrees. OP is probably better off going to Lambda School or a similar technical boot camp.
This is just my personal experience. I've been successful in this industry for nearly a decade now, working my way up from junior to senior dev as a self taught programmer that dropped out of high school. It can absolutely be done. But that doesn't mean it ever helped me to have not had any academic achievements. I once held it as a point of pride to be able to make it without a degree. But I find it increasingly embarrassing as I get older and work almost exclusively with people that have those qualifications to not just have that piece of paper. The reality of life is that given identical skills and experience between two candidates, people are always going to choose the one with a degree. And justifying yourself at the higher levels of a career without one becomes increasingly untenable.
Anecdotally this is a popular idea, but it is surprisingly poorly supported by data. I did a deep dive on this a couple years ago, and there is actually little difference between early-career employment prospects for STEM and non-STEM bachelor degree holders.
I did not look at bachelors vs coding camp certificate.
I did not look at bachelors vs coding camp certificate.
I wonder how much of that is due to a big chunk of the STEM undergrad degrees (mainly science) being not so useful. Don’t think I’ve ever seen a scientist role requiring anything less than a PhD (at least nothing paying more then $40k a year) I find it hard to believe though, that the employment prospects for someone with an B.Eng. or B.S. CS are equally as bad for as someone with a B.A. in English or Psychology.
I think that's true for all schools below the top-10/top-20 (which covers the large majority of people, myself included).
For the elite schools, a STEM degree does confer advantage over non-STEM degrees.
For the elite schools, a STEM degree does confer advantage over non-STEM degrees.
[deleted]
I’ll support this too. I was more than a decade into my SWE career when I decided to finish college. It’s tough but being on the other side of it I can understand why a college graduate is preferable as a candidate more than someone who hasn’t. And it doesn’t have anything to do with learning to program.
University studies are hard, and it’s not the material (for the most part). It’s the effort, and the dedication.
You might see if you can re-enroll in your school.
You might see if you can re-enroll in your school.
If he's on the verge of being homeless, getting a degree seems like too long of a timeline. A bootcamp seems more reasonable, but even that's a stretch.
One of my former co-workers at IBM went to a bootcamp in SF. She is pretty smart. Though, I feel that bootcamps are kinda scams. Not like colleges though.
I went to college and did a bootcamp.
College - 212K tuition (current) - 4 yrs - no job guarantee
Bootcamp - 18K tuition - 3 months - money back if no job within a year
Can you spot the scam?
College - 212K tuition (current) - 4 yrs - no job guarantee
Bootcamp - 18K tuition - 3 months - money back if no job within a year
Can you spot the scam?
While I sympathize with your point, I also see someone who made a really poor choice in picking a college. I'll wager that in every state there is a decent university that will get you a 4 year degree for under $60K.
It's as if I compared your average college with a crappy bootcamp. Let's not cherry-pick.
The number I want to see is the percentage of college grads with a BS in CS who get a (decent) job within a year, vs the percentage of people who complete a bootcamp who get a (decent) job within a year. I suspect the numbers will favor college, but I honestly have no idea.
Getting your money back sounds like a good deal, but you'd still have spent a whole year without a job, and nothing to show for it.
It's as if I compared your average college with a crappy bootcamp. Let's not cherry-pick.
The number I want to see is the percentage of college grads with a BS in CS who get a (decent) job within a year, vs the percentage of people who complete a bootcamp who get a (decent) job within a year. I suspect the numbers will favor college, but I honestly have no idea.
Getting your money back sounds like a good deal, but you'd still have spent a whole year without a job, and nothing to show for it.
I would also say that going to college was a bad choice, but the one I picked was one of the good ones where the name means something. Still a rip off, but a lot of people paid the same for absolutely nothing.
> but the one I picked was one of the good ones where the name means something.
As someone who went both to an average university and one ranked 3rd in the country, I can tell you: The name doesn't mean much in the engineering discipline. Certainly, a CS degree from CMU will likely get you into more interviews, and they probably earn more in the long run, but the person who got his BS in CS from an average state school with a good GPA will almost certainly get a job within a year. Very few exceptions. With bootcamps, I expect that percentage is a lot lower.
As a data point, I work in a top tech company and while people from big name schools are slightly overrepresented, the majority of folks are not from big name schools. Certainly plenty of people from my average state school here have senior positions.
As someone who went both to an average university and one ranked 3rd in the country, I can tell you: The name doesn't mean much in the engineering discipline. Certainly, a CS degree from CMU will likely get you into more interviews, and they probably earn more in the long run, but the person who got his BS in CS from an average state school with a good GPA will almost certainly get a job within a year. Very few exceptions. With bootcamps, I expect that percentage is a lot lower.
As a data point, I work in a top tech company and while people from big name schools are slightly overrepresented, the majority of folks are not from big name schools. Certainly plenty of people from my average state school here have senior positions.
I know it means nothing in engineering, which I think is great. But I went for finance, which is exactly the opposite.
To be fair, money back promises are often used as part of a scam.
Personally i think neither are a scam (although 212k is ridiculous, glad i dont live in usa) just make sure you understand what they are selling and that it matches what you want.
Personally i think neither are a scam (although 212k is ridiculous, glad i dont live in usa) just make sure you understand what they are selling and that it matches what you want.
I actually know someone who got the money back in this case, so not a scam.
Haha yeah. Though, some of the boot camp folks who I noticed . Usually have earned a bachelors with a major in something else than CS etc. Then made the transition to tech via a bootcamp. I applied to the recurse center a while back and got rejected.
I went to college and have many coworkers who went to boot camps, and we’re paid the same!
Look on LinkedIn for people who work at the companies you want to work at, and also went to bootcamps, to build a shortlist.
There are several boot camps today, in every major urban area, that carry major street cred in the local tech communities.
Look on LinkedIn for people who work at the companies you want to work at, and also went to bootcamps, to build a shortlist.
There are several boot camps today, in every major urban area, that carry major street cred in the local tech communities.
Counter-anecdote: I work with a couple of devs who went the bootcamp path. Great front-end devs. However, they are paid significantly less for the same work relative to fresh grads in the office. Wages aren't based off of fairness, but on market factors. They are paid less presumably because management knows they have less options.
Do you know specific good ones?
In the NYC area, the ones I can personally vouch for, having worked with graduates, are Flatiron School, App Academy, and the Recurse Center.
I’m sure there are other good ones, but I only personally know graduates of these programs.
I’m sure there are other good ones, but I only personally know graduates of these programs.
Recurse Center is not a bootcamp
You’re right, but it fits in the mold of “nontraditional education” so I opted to include it.
I do know a handful of people who attended RC with minimal to zero prior programming skills, though this is definitely not the norm.
I do know a handful of people who attended RC with minimal to zero prior programming skills, though this is definitely not the norm.
I've thought about it. Community College, Deep Springs etc. I think autodidacticism is a better way to learn vs academic path. Though I didn't want to finish high school but I did.. So, it might be just one of those things that I'll have to suck up and just do. I disliked that I would have to take 2 years of core curriculum stuff before even being allowed to take major related courses. I had to reach out to instructors of courses that sounded interesting to get approved to take them. After I started to take the courses I didn't really like them. I got good grades on my papers etc.
This was touched on above in slightly different terms, but I'm going to echo it because I see it in the answers here. You were raised differently by your parents. You are missing some basic social skills to interact with other people in a normal way, and unless you are exceptionally brilliant (which most of us aren't) people aren't going to give you a pass on those things because quite frankly it'll make it brutally painful to work with you because literally no instruction or direction can be taken for granted.
At this point in your life the best thing you can do is go to school, try to get some help from your parents or financial aid to focus on your studies, and absolutely do not try to carve your own way through the curriculum. Do the things they put in front of you. Show that you can take on tasks that are boring but necessary and get them done. Embrace the grind. And make some friends! Learning how to interact normally with your peers is a necessary skill that homeschooling rarely helps with.
Personally, I'm a college dropout. I was a mediocre student in high school and a worse one in college because I took time off in between, and was overly impressed with my own ability and didn't put in the work. It took me years to dig out of that hole professionally, but it's possible. And I would never have done it without the social skills and connections I made going to a major university, even if I didn't finish.
At this point in your life the best thing you can do is go to school, try to get some help from your parents or financial aid to focus on your studies, and absolutely do not try to carve your own way through the curriculum. Do the things they put in front of you. Show that you can take on tasks that are boring but necessary and get them done. Embrace the grind. And make some friends! Learning how to interact normally with your peers is a necessary skill that homeschooling rarely helps with.
Personally, I'm a college dropout. I was a mediocre student in high school and a worse one in college because I took time off in between, and was overly impressed with my own ability and didn't put in the work. It took me years to dig out of that hole professionally, but it's possible. And I would never have done it without the social skills and connections I made going to a major university, even if I didn't finish.
Getting a degree is only partially about learning. A degree signals that you were able to complete a curriculum that, frankly, will almost always have parts you don't like.
So some perspective for you to consider. The first is that as I have advanced in my career (its been solid if not extraordinary) the core curriculum stuff I thought was going to never apply working as a technologist has ended up being suprisingly useful. I wasn't a fan of linear algebra in undergrad, but now I'm using it on a data science related stuff. My politics concentration has ended up very useful at understanding the group and organizational dynamics. Even my forced sociology course lets me understand the reasoning of some my peers/superiors who buy into that line of research far more than if I was coming in blind. Theory of computation... remains useless, but they can't all be winners.
The second, and more important, perspective is that as a person who does some indirect hiring (interviewer plus technical lead, but not people manager), I worry that someone without a degree has trouble driving to completion in the face of disinterest, or is self sabotaging. My projects are mostly enjoyable, but sometimes I (or someone on my team) needs to spend 3-4 weeks writing up a government mandated security document. It sucks, but it has to be done. If I think you might be the type of person that will have trouble completing that independently because there is always more fun stuff to be working on, I don't want you on my team.
A degree is a noisy, loosely correalated signal that you won't be that person. However, as others have mentioned, your writing here indicates you MAY be that person, and not having a degree is a correalative signal that doesn't help your case.
So some perspective for you to consider. The first is that as I have advanced in my career (its been solid if not extraordinary) the core curriculum stuff I thought was going to never apply working as a technologist has ended up being suprisingly useful. I wasn't a fan of linear algebra in undergrad, but now I'm using it on a data science related stuff. My politics concentration has ended up very useful at understanding the group and organizational dynamics. Even my forced sociology course lets me understand the reasoning of some my peers/superiors who buy into that line of research far more than if I was coming in blind. Theory of computation... remains useless, but they can't all be winners.
The second, and more important, perspective is that as a person who does some indirect hiring (interviewer plus technical lead, but not people manager), I worry that someone without a degree has trouble driving to completion in the face of disinterest, or is self sabotaging. My projects are mostly enjoyable, but sometimes I (or someone on my team) needs to spend 3-4 weeks writing up a government mandated security document. It sucks, but it has to be done. If I think you might be the type of person that will have trouble completing that independently because there is always more fun stuff to be working on, I don't want you on my team.
A degree is a noisy, loosely correalated signal that you won't be that person. However, as others have mentioned, your writing here indicates you MAY be that person, and not having a degree is a correalative signal that doesn't help your case.
> I think autodidacticism is a better way to learn vs academic path.
It often is a better way to learn, but that's not why I suggested going back to school. It doesn't sound like your technical skills are the reason you're not getting a job.
> So, it might be just one of those things that I'll have to suck up and just do.
Most jobs are full of things you have to suck up and do. As long as you work for someone else, sucking up and doing will be a big part of your career.
Oh, and if you start your own business and work for yourself, chances are you'll spend even more time doing tedious stuff - although it depends on your business.
Doing what you want is the domain of the financially independent, and (some) tenured faculty members.
It often is a better way to learn, but that's not why I suggested going back to school. It doesn't sound like your technical skills are the reason you're not getting a job.
> So, it might be just one of those things that I'll have to suck up and just do.
Most jobs are full of things you have to suck up and do. As long as you work for someone else, sucking up and doing will be a big part of your career.
Oh, and if you start your own business and work for yourself, chances are you'll spend even more time doing tedious stuff - although it depends on your business.
Doing what you want is the domain of the financially independent, and (some) tenured faculty members.
>I think autodidacticism is a better way to learn vs academic path.
A better way to learn, yes perhaps.
A degree shows that you can consistently show up and complete tasks. That's the important part. I haven't read all your posts but it is unclear to me that you actually completed a degree and got the slip of paper?
Unless you have notable (4-5yrs) experience for the position I am looking for, I probably wouldn't hire someone without a degree. It's just a baseline thing you need.
Based on your comments you seem talented but unreliable.
A better way to learn, yes perhaps.
A degree shows that you can consistently show up and complete tasks. That's the important part. I haven't read all your posts but it is unclear to me that you actually completed a degree and got the slip of paper?
Unless you have notable (4-5yrs) experience for the position I am looking for, I probably wouldn't hire someone without a degree. It's just a baseline thing you need.
Based on your comments you seem talented but unreliable.
Deep Springs has something like 18 students, right?
You’re young and you can change your trajectory—have hope!—but it will not be through some home run fantasy. Don’t apply to FAANG or Deep Springs or MIT. Apply to your local community college and to local companies’ IT departments. Keep the job, stay enrolled, get good grades, learn to stay quiet, learn to listen, and only then learn to argue well. After two-three years at community college (depending how fast you go, based on need to work), take your good grades and apply to a few colleges. Go to one that you can afford and isn’t intimidating. Do the work there, too, and graduate. Five years. And then all will be well.
You’re young and you can change your trajectory—have hope!—but it will not be through some home run fantasy. Don’t apply to FAANG or Deep Springs or MIT. Apply to your local community college and to local companies’ IT departments. Keep the job, stay enrolled, get good grades, learn to stay quiet, learn to listen, and only then learn to argue well. After two-three years at community college (depending how fast you go, based on need to work), take your good grades and apply to a few colleges. Go to one that you can afford and isn’t intimidating. Do the work there, too, and graduate. Five years. And then all will be well.
Part of what a 4 year college degree shows is that you can stick with something for four years. Combined with some of your other responses, I think it might be a good thing to have under your belt.
Also, depending on the college scene, you might have more opportunities to socialize with lots of people which you may have missed with your home schooling.
Depending on where you live, community college varies from amazingly affordable to right around the same as a state university. Check on student aid as well.
Sometimes you have to jump through the hoops to show you can.
Also, depending on the college scene, you might have more opportunities to socialize with lots of people which you may have missed with your home schooling.
Depending on where you live, community college varies from amazingly affordable to right around the same as a state university. Check on student aid as well.
Sometimes you have to jump through the hoops to show you can.
Seconded. If you aren't willing to go through school, why would you be willing to take up a job? Most entry-level jobs will generally be even more boring, require more discipline and jumping through the kind of hoops that you will not enjoy. Unless someone sees a sort of a raw genius in you, they will probably not take a gamble on you.
One reason I assume is that a degree is taking tens of thousands of dollars from you whereas the entry level job will be giving that to you.
Because university and work are completely different environments.
University is very academic, work is very practical.
University is very academic, work is very practical.
> I disliked that I would have to take 2 years of core curriculum stuff before even being allowed to take major related courses. I had to reach out to instructors of courses that sounded interesting to get approved to take them. After I started to take the courses I didn't really like them.
You seem to have a real problem accepting that you have to work within the system and follow the same rules as everyone else.
For entry level positions, the best predictor of success hiring manager have is your GPA when you've completed a degree. Further, autodidacticism certainly can be better for some people, but unfortunately it makes it much harder for you to get past initial screenings. If you had stuck with some of your other jobs for a few years, this would matter a bit less, but if you haven't stuck with any job longer than two months, you don't look like a potential asset.
My advice is to go to school. Accept that the core curriculum requirements are there for a reason, and unless the university offers a way to test of part of them, then deal with it. If it's stuff you already know, then look at it as a way to help ensure you have a great GPA for when you do graduate. And when you're in school, take advantage to everything else that's offered - join a few clubs, look for opportunities to learn leadership skills and develop them.
Once you graduate, start your resume there - don't even include things before that - they don't know how old you are, so they'll assume you're just like any other recent grad.
Finally, when you land a job, keep your mouth shut and do the work you're asked to do. Give input when asked, otherwise listen. Listen to what your manager is saying, and to what senior engineers are saying. Watch to see who has influence, and how they wield it. In a few months if your work is speaking for itself, then it's the time to start speaking up more. If you have a good manager, ask for their advice on how to do speak up effectively, if you don't have a good manager, ask one of the engineers that clearly has influence.
Above all, remember that life isn't easy for most of us. It doesn't matter how smart we are, we have to work hard, work well with others, and learn how to work within the system. Otherwise the system will spit you out.
You seem to have a real problem accepting that you have to work within the system and follow the same rules as everyone else.
For entry level positions, the best predictor of success hiring manager have is your GPA when you've completed a degree. Further, autodidacticism certainly can be better for some people, but unfortunately it makes it much harder for you to get past initial screenings. If you had stuck with some of your other jobs for a few years, this would matter a bit less, but if you haven't stuck with any job longer than two months, you don't look like a potential asset.
My advice is to go to school. Accept that the core curriculum requirements are there for a reason, and unless the university offers a way to test of part of them, then deal with it. If it's stuff you already know, then look at it as a way to help ensure you have a great GPA for when you do graduate. And when you're in school, take advantage to everything else that's offered - join a few clubs, look for opportunities to learn leadership skills and develop them.
Once you graduate, start your resume there - don't even include things before that - they don't know how old you are, so they'll assume you're just like any other recent grad.
Finally, when you land a job, keep your mouth shut and do the work you're asked to do. Give input when asked, otherwise listen. Listen to what your manager is saying, and to what senior engineers are saying. Watch to see who has influence, and how they wield it. In a few months if your work is speaking for itself, then it's the time to start speaking up more. If you have a good manager, ask for their advice on how to do speak up effectively, if you don't have a good manager, ask one of the engineers that clearly has influence.
Above all, remember that life isn't easy for most of us. It doesn't matter how smart we are, we have to work hard, work well with others, and learn how to work within the system. Otherwise the system will spit you out.
The autodidact path is a possible path, but its the harder one. To do it succesfully you have to go significantly above what your peers do to prove yourself. It also can often leave gaps in your knowledge and blindspots that you are unaware of.
In the world of software, that probably means having a portfolio of projects you can point to as examples (including but not neccesarily limited to open source projects. Other options include starting your own company (very hard), etc)
In the world of software, that probably means having a portfolio of projects you can point to as examples (including but not neccesarily limited to open source projects. Other options include starting your own company (very hard), etc)
I always felt being enrolled in a community college was always a key differentiator for me as a candidate. Beyond being a stepping stone into a top 10 CS program for me, I feel like those lines on my resume communicate that I am just a super tenacious and scrappy person.
It is the highest ROI investment I have ever made in myself.
It is the highest ROI investment I have ever made in myself.
[deleted]
Go to degreeforum.net and learn about how to get a Bachelor’s degree in a year. Or read Miguel’s story of how he got a CS degree from WGU in one year. Alternatively if you want to know how to get a Master’s degree without a Bachelor’s e-mail me and I’ll tell you how I did it.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25467900
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25467900
Without completely dismissing the idea of going to school, it might be more your speed to work on an open source project of some sort. If you can build something and launch it, that is cheaper, faster, and (potentially) a lot more fun than going to school. For someone who doesn't like playing the "games" involved in office work or interviews, setting yourself up for consulting work might be a good move too.
Yeah but that open source rarely leads to a job. Yes, many here on HN and open-source may have achieved that but it is extremely rare.
I don't think this person will be able to do consulting considering the actions they have done while interacting with managers, directors, executives.
I don't think this person will be able to do consulting considering the actions they have done while interacting with managers, directors, executives.
When you're enrolled in college it opens up opportunities for internships, software eng is usually decent pay. Consider research, you don't have to interact with business people - academics are more understanding of autism spectrum behavior. I wouldn't expect career progression to be fast taking this route, but at least you'll get some experience.
Especially in this case, getting a degree would got a long way towards demonstrating dedication and maturity, and could even make up for earlier job hopping and quitting school.
And how exactly does this work for someone who is nearly homeless?
I have to agree. I don't think having a degree dictates whether a person can do a job or not, but they have sure convinced corporations that it's a requirement.
After I got a degree I started getting responses from places.
After I got a degree I started getting responses from places.
Have you tried talking with a recruiting agency? I notice you've mostly applied at household-name companies, many of which are very competitive. The majority of the tech jobs out there are not at companies you've ever heard of. Recruiters (third-party, not in-house) are motivated to find you something that's a good fit because they get commission (from the company) based on you getting hired. They'll coach you, help you with your resume, draw from a huge pool of companies to find something that's just the right fit. Their job is solving this exact problem.
This is a great tip. Earlier in my career I was stuck at a mid-point where I didn't have quite enough experience to get hired by a household-name tech company, and working with third-party recruiters made finding a job easy. Knowing what I know now, I never would have even made it past screening at a lot of companies. They will take a cut of your salary, but they'll also work hard to sell you, as that's the only way they get paid. You are to them what a house is to a realtor, and the market is hot right now.
> They will take a cut of your salary
I've never had one that did this (or told me about it, at least). My understanding was that the company is basically paying them to find talent, so you're the product being sold. Sometimes there's even a clause that if you quit too soon they have to give back their commission, which further incentivizes them to make sure you really are a good fit.
I've never had one that did this (or told me about it, at least). My understanding was that the company is basically paying them to find talent, so you're the product being sold. Sometimes there's even a clause that if you quit too soon they have to give back their commission, which further incentivizes them to make sure you really are a good fit.
I've hired tons of people, I've never offered someone less because they came in via a recruiter. You typically budget for salary + recruiter fee and if someone is hired organically then that's a bonus.
You don't pay someone less because they came via a recruiter because then they are going to be poached for being underpaid. You also don't pay someone more because they didn't come in via a recruiter otherwise now I have guys working on varying salaries which creates issues if that comes out in a team.
source: prior founder, hiring manager at large companies, etc
You don't pay someone less because they came via a recruiter because then they are going to be poached for being underpaid. You also don't pay someone more because they didn't come in via a recruiter otherwise now I have guys working on varying salaries which creates issues if that comes out in a team.
source: prior founder, hiring manager at large companies, etc
You likely just didn’t realize it. Usually the head-hunter cut is a % of the new hire’s salary for a length of time and is paid by the hiring company. So you never see it... but if someone gets hired directly then they can usually negotiate a higher salary instead of that money going to the non-existent headhunter. Another way of saying it is that initial offerings through a headhunter are lower since the cost is higher to the company.
This is my experience, either the recruiter will want to pay you directly, thus the company can avoid its own HR red-tape, or their deal with the recruiter is deliberately hidden from you, but you still join FTE. Of course, there's a million different ways to do this, but an organization like Triplebyte is upfront about taking 30% of your salary for two years.
If the hiring officer has a budget of 150k for the first year, and the recruiter charges 30k, how much are they going to offer you?
You can still negotiate to what you're worth. If you're no better than the applicants they got without recruiters then good luck, but that's why companies are hiring from recruiters, they can't find the talent on their own.
This is great advice. I would add: don't wait for them to coach you, tell them what your strengths are and how you've had trouble finding a job at big tech companies. Let them know you're open to smaller and lesser known tech companies and that you want to be coached to help you with the interviews. Because you're striking out at the interview stage and you know you can perform better.
EDIT: based on the first reply I got I want to revise this slightly. Don't go into too much detail about who rejected you or how many times. In fact keep the details short but make it clear you think interviewing is a weakness they should coach you with
EDIT: based on the first reply I got I want to revise this slightly. Don't go into too much detail about who rejected you or how many times. In fact keep the details short but make it clear you think interviewing is a weakness they should coach you with
Personally I wouldn't volunteer to tell them which or how many big tech companies rejected my resume. I'm afraid that nine times out of ten it would create undue prejudice in the interviewer/recruiter.
Important to note that interviewer and recruiter are two different parties. The interviewer's job is to be skeptical of you; the recruiter's job is to polish you up and sell you to the interviewer. The recruiter is on your side, so it makes sense to be open with them.
(Note that this only applies to recruiting agencies. A "recruiter" at the company you're interviewing for is the exact opposite story.)
(Note that this only applies to recruiting agencies. A "recruiter" at the company you're interviewing for is the exact opposite story.)
Thanks that is actually great advice. I added an addendum suggesting let agencies know he could use interview coaching but avoid details like where he's applied already or to how many companies.
And OP, ask them to help you find long term positions. It sounds like your resume shows a lack of commitment and it'd be good to show you can stick with something for more than a year.
Yeah, a headhunter might be a good idea. I'll check out some which were mentioned here. I heard of triplebyte but have heard they've done some sketchy stuff (spam emails, exposing PI) etc. But it sounds like they do have incentives to champion applicants.
Can you recommend any good third party recruiting agencies for tech?
I got my first bay area job through Triplebyte -- they were pretty perfect for me being able to demonstrate technical ability without a deep resume. Their process has gotten more cookie cutter over the years but the resume-blindness might be an asset in OP's situation. They're also much better positioned to give feedback on why you're struggling in interviews than an HN thread.
I'm not sure. Most of the ones I've talked to have contacted me on LinkedIn or by email, and I'm not sure how local they are/aren't to my area.
Now that I think about it I'm not sure how to actually seek one out otherwise... you might attract them by putting buzzwords on your LinkedIn? It probably isn't too hard to Google for them either
Now that I think about it I'm not sure how to actually seek one out otherwise... you might attract them by putting buzzwords on your LinkedIn? It probably isn't too hard to Google for them either
Googling just returns the sites that have won the SEO game. While it will return results, it's not anywhere the same as personal recos/warnings from like minded people. At least it might help with picking something from a search result. I might even put more weight into HN recos over something like Amazon reviews, maybe ;-)
I've had pretty good experiences with Hired before. Coming out of a product consulting background, I wasn't sure I was going to have the requisite experience to transition to an in-house role, but they found several leads for me and I ended up landing a gig with a significantly higher starting salary than I expected.
I have had good experiences with Aerotech. Really nice people who listen to what you want and try to find it for you.
I get contacted by them through linked in. They probably pay to search people with certain resume attributes, and then just spam email them in a numbers game to try to put credible candidates in front of their clients
Vettery, Jobot, Triplebyte
You leave out a lot about yourself that would make you unhireable. From what you've written it sounds like you could form a decent resume for an entry level position. The biggest red flag I see is that it doesn't sound like you completed anything and you don't have any follow through / sticktuitiveness.
Life happens and reasons happen but you didn't complete college, you complain about your entry level position at amazon but I see nothing that warrants a greater position than that. Obviously this may not be everything about you so it's difficult to judge.
I have no degree, but worked hard, stuck to jobs for 2-3 years before moving and developed a track record that hiring managers like to see. That means working for $15/hr in a position that you feel is beneath you. The thing that position provides you valuable experience and showing you can stick with things. Companies that hire you put forth a significant investment that takes roughly a year to pay off. Employees don't always realize that. If you look like you won't stick around they won't hire you.
One of the most important thing, especially as a junior is to be likable and present your suggestions in a likable way. Also it's key to know when no one wants to hear your suggestions. Sometimes your perspective may be a new thing that was never thought of or it could be one sided, the business knows it and had accepted the risk but it's not within your knowledge scope to know that.
I do technical interviews for the company I work for. If you're not likable to me, you're probably not getting hired. If I get the impression that every interaction will be a dick measuring contest because you come off as a smarty pants, I'm not recommend hiring. Someone who's knowledgeable and humble is going to get my recommendation. If you're good, and know how to communicate well you'll naturally rise to lead a team because they'll look to you for answers or ideas and everyone will notice.
It really sounds like you need to "pay your dues" by showing that you can stick to something. That's either complete college and get a degree or work entry level for 2 years and move up or out to the next position.
Life happens and reasons happen but you didn't complete college, you complain about your entry level position at amazon but I see nothing that warrants a greater position than that. Obviously this may not be everything about you so it's difficult to judge.
I have no degree, but worked hard, stuck to jobs for 2-3 years before moving and developed a track record that hiring managers like to see. That means working for $15/hr in a position that you feel is beneath you. The thing that position provides you valuable experience and showing you can stick with things. Companies that hire you put forth a significant investment that takes roughly a year to pay off. Employees don't always realize that. If you look like you won't stick around they won't hire you.
One of the most important thing, especially as a junior is to be likable and present your suggestions in a likable way. Also it's key to know when no one wants to hear your suggestions. Sometimes your perspective may be a new thing that was never thought of or it could be one sided, the business knows it and had accepted the risk but it's not within your knowledge scope to know that.
I do technical interviews for the company I work for. If you're not likable to me, you're probably not getting hired. If I get the impression that every interaction will be a dick measuring contest because you come off as a smarty pants, I'm not recommend hiring. Someone who's knowledgeable and humble is going to get my recommendation. If you're good, and know how to communicate well you'll naturally rise to lead a team because they'll look to you for answers or ideas and everyone will notice.
It really sounds like you need to "pay your dues" by showing that you can stick to something. That's either complete college and get a degree or work entry level for 2 years and move up or out to the next position.
Yeah, I think hiring managers think that I'm a quitter. I definitely think that I was whining too much about the Amazon role. Beggers can't be choosers. However, the no health insurance thing rubbed me the wrong way. I felt like it was a dead end job. I wish that I would've stayed with it though. I probably would've been promoted by now. I need to stay with a job and rack up some years of experience for sure.
Like I mentioned in other comments. I think HM's see me as a quitter. Also other baises like ageism etc. I think are apart of the issue. I felt like that I should've got promoted after reporting those issues, especially since I found them within my frist two weeks. I think that I come off as demure. I take a long time to answer sometimes. Due to my sutter, and southern drawl etc. But I try to listen, and pay attention to detail. Learn when to shut up, and when input/insight is wanted etc.
Sometimes when I do receive rejection feedback it's mostly "overqualifed", "not a good fit", and "not enough experience". I received a rejection from state farm today stating that I'm not a good fit. Even though I meet the qualifcations.
Like I mentioned in other comments. I think HM's see me as a quitter. Also other baises like ageism etc. I think are apart of the issue. I felt like that I should've got promoted after reporting those issues, especially since I found them within my frist two weeks. I think that I come off as demure. I take a long time to answer sometimes. Due to my sutter, and southern drawl etc. But I try to listen, and pay attention to detail. Learn when to shut up, and when input/insight is wanted etc.
Sometimes when I do receive rejection feedback it's mostly "overqualifed", "not a good fit", and "not enough experience". I received a rejection from state farm today stating that I'm not a good fit. Even though I meet the qualifcations.
> I felt like that I should've got promoted after reporting those issues, especially since I found them within my frist two weeks.
Take this with a grain of salt, since obviously I don't actually know you or the details of this situation. However, flagging issues to your boss' boss is rarely the best way to leave a good impression. It mostly signals you have problems working within the structure of the company and you're a 'troublemaker'. Whether that's fair or not, is not too relevant. You might get away with these things if you already have a lot of credibility, but since this was in your first 2 weeks, that's unlikely to be the case.
Your post also gave off some vibes of feeling too good for the job assigned to you. Again, I don't actually know you, so I might be misreading it, but if you give that impression during interviews, you'll have a hard time getting hired. Do you have any friends you could ask to do mock interviews with you? They could give you feedback on not just the quality of your answers, but also the way you answer.
Edit: Oh thought of one more comment regarding expecting to get rewarded for calling out issues. Typically it's not the person calling out the problems that gets rewarded, but the person that fixes them. Just calling this out, since you might be under the impression that you are adding a lot of value, while your boss might not see it that way. Honestly, the best way to add value is to do the job assigned to you. If you want to stand out, do it better and faster than expected.
Take this with a grain of salt, since obviously I don't actually know you or the details of this situation. However, flagging issues to your boss' boss is rarely the best way to leave a good impression. It mostly signals you have problems working within the structure of the company and you're a 'troublemaker'. Whether that's fair or not, is not too relevant. You might get away with these things if you already have a lot of credibility, but since this was in your first 2 weeks, that's unlikely to be the case.
Your post also gave off some vibes of feeling too good for the job assigned to you. Again, I don't actually know you, so I might be misreading it, but if you give that impression during interviews, you'll have a hard time getting hired. Do you have any friends you could ask to do mock interviews with you? They could give you feedback on not just the quality of your answers, but also the way you answer.
Edit: Oh thought of one more comment regarding expecting to get rewarded for calling out issues. Typically it's not the person calling out the problems that gets rewarded, but the person that fixes them. Just calling this out, since you might be under the impression that you are adding a lot of value, while your boss might not see it that way. Honestly, the best way to add value is to do the job assigned to you. If you want to stand out, do it better and faster than expected.
I would also add on that most ideas have already been thought of. It's pretty common that new people will come into an org and bring up their idea only to find all the experienced people rolling their eyes because the idea has been talked about dozens of times.
It's good to be observable but just because your idea hasn't been implemented before doesn't mean no one has thought about it. At big companies there is friction in place for any change.
As someone new I think the best way to bring up something you notice is to ask your manager or a peer something like "Hey, I noticed we're not doing X and it could be a problem. Is there a reason for that?" That will allow them to fill you in on the context and organizational history.
If you bring up an idea, especially if it's been discussed many times before, and start raving about how it should be implemented, your co-workers are going to lose a lot of respect for you because you haven't taken a chance to learn first.
It's good to be observable but just because your idea hasn't been implemented before doesn't mean no one has thought about it. At big companies there is friction in place for any change.
As someone new I think the best way to bring up something you notice is to ask your manager or a peer something like "Hey, I noticed we're not doing X and it could be a problem. Is there a reason for that?" That will allow them to fill you in on the context and organizational history.
If you bring up an idea, especially if it's been discussed many times before, and start raving about how it should be implemented, your co-workers are going to lose a lot of respect for you because you haven't taken a chance to learn first.
Yeah, that "expecting to get rewarded for calling out issues" is one of the things you can learn from homeschooling that needs to be unlearned later.
It comes down to you not having much power to fix anything as a child and parents who praise you for pointing out significant issues.
Anyways, it's not how society or workplaces work.
It comes down to you not having much power to fix anything as a child and parents who praise you for pointing out significant issues.
Anyways, it's not how society or workplaces work.
And if you went up the chain with feedback/criticism, you'd want to have runs on the board with the company and also approach it very carefully with insane diplomacy/personality. It's not going to be like the movies where they say "You're an abrupt pain in the arse, but I admire that in a person. You're promoted!"
> I received a rejection from state farm today stating that I'm not a good fit. Even though I meet the qualifcations.
Speaking as someone who has interviewed a few dozen candidates, this likely means you're rubbing people up the wrong way. Based solely on reading this comment alone:
> I felt like that I should've got promoted after reporting those issues, especially since I found them within my frist two weeks
If I interviewed someone who told me they left their previous job because they weren't progressing after raising issues immediately after being hired, that would be a hard no from me.
Speaking as someone who has interviewed a few dozen candidates, this likely means you're rubbing people up the wrong way. Based solely on reading this comment alone:
> I felt like that I should've got promoted after reporting those issues, especially since I found them within my frist two weeks
If I interviewed someone who told me they left their previous job because they weren't progressing after raising issues immediately after being hired, that would be a hard no from me.
> If I interviewed someone who told me they left their previous job because they weren't progressing after raising issues immediately after being hired, that would be a hard no from me.
This.
OP's tales convey the idea of someone who holds himself at an uniquely high esteem that's not shared by anyone who contacted directly with him.
I mean,it's highly unusual that someone that barely can land an entry-level customer support role and still fails to keep it would be able to meet the bar of any of the FANGS, specially when they value personal traits.
To make matters worse, in the few jobs he managed to land he proceeds to act in ways that antagonize their leadership,both direct and skip-level, and also create problems for everyone around instead of solving them.
Managers want to hire people to solve their problems and help move things forward, not create more problems and act as a blocker.
This.
OP's tales convey the idea of someone who holds himself at an uniquely high esteem that's not shared by anyone who contacted directly with him.
I mean,it's highly unusual that someone that barely can land an entry-level customer support role and still fails to keep it would be able to meet the bar of any of the FANGS, specially when they value personal traits.
To make matters worse, in the few jobs he managed to land he proceeds to act in ways that antagonize their leadership,both direct and skip-level, and also create problems for everyone around instead of solving them.
Managers want to hire people to solve their problems and help move things forward, not create more problems and act as a blocker.
> I felt like that I should've got promoted after reporting those issues, especially since I found them within my frist two weeks
You won't ever get a promotion within two weeks, especially not over a single instance of good work. Do it a hundred more times, then think about a promotion.
I think you seriously need to re-evaluate your expectations about this stuff.
You won't ever get a promotion within two weeks, especially not over a single instance of good work. Do it a hundred more times, then think about a promotion.
I think you seriously need to re-evaluate your expectations about this stuff.
And perhaps work this thought into your head: "My job is to make my boss look good, not to impress his boss or higher."
"My job is to make my boss look good, not to impress his boss or higher."
This is really important. Not only will it make your time at a company much easier, it will increase your chances of promotion and it will make it easier to get future jobs as you will have one happy manager who is willing to vouch for how good you are.
This is really important. Not only will it make your time at a company much easier, it will increase your chances of promotion and it will make it easier to get future jobs as you will have one happy manager who is willing to vouch for how good you are.
"Overqualified" in concert with your employment record of very short stints means they're worried you won't be happy at the job and you'll leave for something else. Which, bluntly, they're right to be worried about.
Hiring a person has a pretty high fixed cost for the company (in time spent setting things up, doing their end of the paperwork, making time to show you the ropes, etc.), and it's only worthwhile if it's an investment - i.e., if the person being hired stays.
Your resume gives an employer absolutely no reason to believe that you'll stay. So you have to be extremely convincing about that when you talk to them - that means you have to be extremely convincing that you'll be happy working at a job even if it's not the right fit for you, even if they don't recognize you as much as you think you deserve, even if the internal email system maxes out at 1 GB.
(The person who's hiring you almost certainly also has an ambition to a higher role, has been slighted for recognition before, and has their own complaints about the IT setup! I've never heard anyone say "My company is over-promoting me and our internal email system is too good." So if you give them any reason to believe that those sorts of things are dealbreakers for you, and not things that you too will put up with, they'll expect you to leave. They're not going to convince themselves it's fine to hire you because that problem won't happen here.)
For instance, if they ask you why you left Amazon, you'd better not be saying "I found an important problem and I didn't get recognition for it." Tell them you had a personal emergency or something.
Hiring a person has a pretty high fixed cost for the company (in time spent setting things up, doing their end of the paperwork, making time to show you the ropes, etc.), and it's only worthwhile if it's an investment - i.e., if the person being hired stays.
Your resume gives an employer absolutely no reason to believe that you'll stay. So you have to be extremely convincing about that when you talk to them - that means you have to be extremely convincing that you'll be happy working at a job even if it's not the right fit for you, even if they don't recognize you as much as you think you deserve, even if the internal email system maxes out at 1 GB.
(The person who's hiring you almost certainly also has an ambition to a higher role, has been slighted for recognition before, and has their own complaints about the IT setup! I've never heard anyone say "My company is over-promoting me and our internal email system is too good." So if you give them any reason to believe that those sorts of things are dealbreakers for you, and not things that you too will put up with, they'll expect you to leave. They're not going to convince themselves it's fine to hire you because that problem won't happen here.)
For instance, if they ask you why you left Amazon, you'd better not be saying "I found an important problem and I didn't get recognition for it." Tell them you had a personal emergency or something.
> For instance, if they ask you why you left Amazon, you'd better not be saying "I found an important problem and I didn't get recognition for it." Tell them you had a personal emergency or something.
Can I push on that a little? Lying is a Bad Move. There are, however, ways to finesse the conversation if it comes to that.
But there's literally no reason you can't just come out and say, "I wasn't getting benefits, and I need benefits." Honesty works there. It's fine to say, "I'm looking for a career with a brighter future than warehouse work, and I think I have the skills to work here because {insert experience}."
I'm not a frequently flyer on either side of the interviewing table, so I don't know for sure how this sort of advice sounds, but when I interview I expect honesty. If the process isn't candid, neither party is happy and there's a lot of wasted time and money on both sides.
Can I push on that a little? Lying is a Bad Move. There are, however, ways to finesse the conversation if it comes to that.
But there's literally no reason you can't just come out and say, "I wasn't getting benefits, and I need benefits." Honesty works there. It's fine to say, "I'm looking for a career with a brighter future than warehouse work, and I think I have the skills to work here because {insert experience}."
I'm not a frequently flyer on either side of the interviewing table, so I don't know for sure how this sort of advice sounds, but when I interview I expect honesty. If the process isn't candid, neither party is happy and there's a lot of wasted time and money on both sides.
"Finessing" the conversation and telling partial truth is also lying. No one ever got hired without some lying, whether they exaggerated some part or left out another.
E.g.
"Why did you leave Company X?"
"I hated it and was fired for low performance. But I'm much better now!" said no one ever.
Say "family emergency" and they'll always take you at your word and leave it at that. Just don't overdo it -- more than one of those might look a little fishy.
E.g.
"Why did you leave Company X?"
"I hated it and was fired for low performance. But I'm much better now!" said no one ever.
Say "family emergency" and they'll always take you at your word and leave it at that. Just don't overdo it -- more than one of those might look a little fishy.
> "Finessing" the conversation and telling partial truth is also lying. No one ever got hired without some lying, whether they exaggerated some part or left out another.
I suppose that's an opinion, though I disagree.
There are certain things, for example, that an HR rep is not allowed to ask you by reason of law. I omit questions and don't volunteer information like that all the time; is that a lie? I also never, or rarely, volunteer my current salary; is that a lie?
It's always the case that different perspectives tell the same story in different ways, and part of what OP may need is a changed perspective.
If I were fired from a job for cause, it's likely that I'd need to have an explanation. Not all places will check references or confirm employment history, but were I a hiring manager I would. If that came up I'd want to chat with references and the candidate about the situation.
I suppose that's an opinion, though I disagree.
There are certain things, for example, that an HR rep is not allowed to ask you by reason of law. I omit questions and don't volunteer information like that all the time; is that a lie? I also never, or rarely, volunteer my current salary; is that a lie?
It's always the case that different perspectives tell the same story in different ways, and part of what OP may need is a changed perspective.
If I were fired from a job for cause, it's likely that I'd need to have an explanation. Not all places will check references or confirm employment history, but were I a hiring manager I would. If that came up I'd want to chat with references and the candidate about the situation.
I dunno, OP seems to have realized (according to other comments) that it was a bad move, and "I randomly decided to give up a job that in retrospect I could have put up with" does sort of seem like a personal emergency. :) To be clear I'm definitely not saying that you should make up a story "I had to take care of my grandma" or whatever.
I don't advocate lying (and as a personal quirk I'm very unlikely to tell an outright lie). But it's going to be very difficult to explain why you left all of those jobs in a way that doesn't scare an employer. If you can drive the conversation to roughly "it was a bad time in my life," that seems a) basically true b) personal enough that it'd be unprofessional for the interviewer to probe for details c) unlikely to make the interviewer fear that it will be an ongoing problem.
I guess the real advice here is, come up with an answer for this very foreseeable question, which you can say with a straight face and without getting yourself into more trouble.
I don't advocate lying (and as a personal quirk I'm very unlikely to tell an outright lie). But it's going to be very difficult to explain why you left all of those jobs in a way that doesn't scare an employer. If you can drive the conversation to roughly "it was a bad time in my life," that seems a) basically true b) personal enough that it'd be unprofessional for the interviewer to probe for details c) unlikely to make the interviewer fear that it will be an ongoing problem.
I guess the real advice here is, come up with an answer for this very foreseeable question, which you can say with a straight face and without getting yourself into more trouble.
> But it's going to be very difficult to explain why you left all of those jobs in a way that doesn't scare an employer.
If you work at a place for two months, don't put it on the resume?
If you have a gap in your employment, you need to be able to talk about that, but you don't have to talk about each stop.
In an interview, I'll ask about gaps. One ran something like, "I was laid off in {year} and took {weeks} to recover. It took me {months} to find a job at {company}. I took the role because of my financial situation, but I'm interested in you because I think our situations overlap better." That's not quite verbatim, but similar to what I had with someone we hired (I was part of the interview team, but I've never been a hiring manager). It didn't raise any red flags to me. His experience at his prior employer wasn't good, but he communicated effectively that he felt like we'd be a better fit, and we were.
Anecdotally, we had a candidate come in who was junior but pretty well educated. A thin resume in his situation would have been fine: we understood where he was coming from. I perceived a little insecurity from the two-page resume that could've been reduced to a few line items with a stronger emphasis on skills he brought to the table, and with a little probing on technical matters found that his purported experience was not what I would've expected from his background. Less in this case would've been more.
I don't know the OP from Adam, so I'd hesitate to offer much advice here; from the comments I'd think that there's a good reason to talk to a good counselor about the personal background and challenges and address the professional retooling after: but that's hard when you're down on your luck without money. Churches often offer this sort of service, but reading between the lines I'd guess that may not be an avenue for the OP.
Professionally I'd concentrate on starting over or looking to see if there are trade schools that would accommodate. One local to me is completely free and would provide a skillset for at least earning a living while trying to pursue other interests.
If you work at a place for two months, don't put it on the resume?
If you have a gap in your employment, you need to be able to talk about that, but you don't have to talk about each stop.
In an interview, I'll ask about gaps. One ran something like, "I was laid off in {year} and took {weeks} to recover. It took me {months} to find a job at {company}. I took the role because of my financial situation, but I'm interested in you because I think our situations overlap better." That's not quite verbatim, but similar to what I had with someone we hired (I was part of the interview team, but I've never been a hiring manager). It didn't raise any red flags to me. His experience at his prior employer wasn't good, but he communicated effectively that he felt like we'd be a better fit, and we were.
Anecdotally, we had a candidate come in who was junior but pretty well educated. A thin resume in his situation would have been fine: we understood where he was coming from. I perceived a little insecurity from the two-page resume that could've been reduced to a few line items with a stronger emphasis on skills he brought to the table, and with a little probing on technical matters found that his purported experience was not what I would've expected from his background. Less in this case would've been more.
I don't know the OP from Adam, so I'd hesitate to offer much advice here; from the comments I'd think that there's a good reason to talk to a good counselor about the personal background and challenges and address the professional retooling after: but that's hard when you're down on your luck without money. Churches often offer this sort of service, but reading between the lines I'd guess that may not be an avenue for the OP.
Professionally I'd concentrate on starting over or looking to see if there are trade schools that would accommodate. One local to me is completely free and would provide a skillset for at least earning a living while trying to pursue other interests.
It sounds like OP's employment history consists entirely of 2-month-ish stints, and so leaving short stints off would mean having no professional experience on the resume.
Now, that might actually be the right answer in this case (your "starting over" suggestion, more or less).
Now, that might actually be the right answer in this case (your "starting over" suggestion, more or less).
> But there's literally no reason you can't just come out and say, "I wasn't getting benefits, and I need benefits." Honesty works there.
The problem is that (a) you should have noticed the lack of benefits before you accepted the job, and (b) it doesn't make any sense to quit due to lack of benefits without another job lined up that does provide benefits.
The problem is that (a) you should have noticed the lack of benefits before you accepted the job, and (b) it doesn't make any sense to quit due to lack of benefits without another job lined up that does provide benefits.
A promotion is not a reward. A promotion is an offer for a new job with higher expectations and more responsibility. If you struggle to meet the expectations of the current role, lack agreeableness, or are unlikely to be able to do the next role up there is no way that you'll get a promotion. Sometimes patience is key.
I'm currently mentoring a person who is transitioning into an engineering manager and this person has a noticeable stutter, but is an incredible candidate. If you don't like your southern drawl, change it. I'm from a place with a very strong accent but you'd never know it.
If you're getting a rejection to an application like "overqualified" or "not a good fit" it likely means your resume wasn't tailored to the position or there is something unbelievable about it.
I'm currently mentoring a person who is transitioning into an engineering manager and this person has a noticeable stutter, but is an incredible candidate. If you don't like your southern drawl, change it. I'm from a place with a very strong accent but you'd never know it.
If you're getting a rejection to an application like "overqualified" or "not a good fit" it likely means your resume wasn't tailored to the position or there is something unbelievable about it.
Also, to be direct -- you appear to have little to no programming skill. You've never worked as a dev before, except perhaps at IBM, from which you transitioned to QA? You have no college degree in programming. And you're applying to the top echelon of software companies, that have the ability to have a shot at almost any candidate they want.
You need to be a fulltime dev somewhere, and without a degree (let alone from a great school) or experience, you're not aiming at a company likely to hire someone like you. Startups won't either; to be blunt, you're a giant project I would have to pour senior engineering time into to maybe get a competent junior dev on the far side. If you don't flake again.
My suggestion is either a coding bootcamp (I've hired out of appacademy.io), or finding a company big enough to have (super) junior engineers -- meaning a devteam probably 75+ -- and impressing someone enough to get a job there. Then you need to bust ass for the next two years, and show a hiring manager elsewhere that you're worth taking a shot on.
You need to be a fulltime dev somewhere, and without a degree (let alone from a great school) or experience, you're not aiming at a company likely to hire someone like you. Startups won't either; to be blunt, you're a giant project I would have to pour senior engineering time into to maybe get a competent junior dev on the far side. If you don't flake again.
My suggestion is either a coding bootcamp (I've hired out of appacademy.io), or finding a company big enough to have (super) junior engineers -- meaning a devteam probably 75+ -- and impressing someone enough to get a job there. Then you need to bust ass for the next two years, and show a hiring manager elsewhere that you're worth taking a shot on.
This person is correct in that:
You MUST show your programming skills.
How?
* Github. I spent 4 months programming a project in NodeJS, ReactJS, Postgres, (+ html/css of course) on Linux. I posted the code on Github for the world to see. Within 2 weeks I was hired to my first 100% programming job: $80k, on 1099 contract. Two months later, I was hired on salary at $105k by a different company. Once I had those on my resume, plus the github code, and the two next bullet points, recruiters began contacting me. Sure, no one paid me for those 4 months, and it was a grind, but now they certainly do pay me.
* A web portfolio. Web Dev is my bread and butter. How could I call myself a Web Dev without my own website?
* LinkedIn presence + LinkedIn Connections
To build skills:
* Udemy.com , Youtube, other video sites (google "sites like udemy" for more)
* IRC --> Google "nodejs community" and you'll find there's an IRC chatroom filled with hundreds of Node devs, many of whom are experts & work at major tech companies. There are also chatrooms on Discord and Slack, besides IRC. And they offer chatrooms in many languages & frameworks
* eBooks. Free ones.
You MUST show your programming skills.
How?
* Github. I spent 4 months programming a project in NodeJS, ReactJS, Postgres, (+ html/css of course) on Linux. I posted the code on Github for the world to see. Within 2 weeks I was hired to my first 100% programming job: $80k, on 1099 contract. Two months later, I was hired on salary at $105k by a different company. Once I had those on my resume, plus the github code, and the two next bullet points, recruiters began contacting me. Sure, no one paid me for those 4 months, and it was a grind, but now they certainly do pay me.
* A web portfolio. Web Dev is my bread and butter. How could I call myself a Web Dev without my own website?
* LinkedIn presence + LinkedIn Connections
To build skills:
* Udemy.com , Youtube, other video sites (google "sites like udemy" for more)
* IRC --> Google "nodejs community" and you'll find there's an IRC chatroom filled with hundreds of Node devs, many of whom are experts & work at major tech companies. There are also chatrooms on Discord and Slack, besides IRC. And they offer chatrooms in many languages & frameworks
* eBooks. Free ones.
This is certainly a possible route. To be honest, I'm not sure the poster has the ability to carry through a four month self-directed project like that; a bootcamp and/or working as a junior engineer provides far more structure and direction.
You bring up a great point.
I actually attended a bootcamp for 1 week, but thought it was over priced and didn't provide much instruction (25 students, 2 instructors, sometimes only 1 instructor. After a lecture on a topic, I'd spend 95% of the day just googling stuff. Also, the lessons were not structured in a pedagogical way in my experience there. That said, it was just after bootcamps became a thing-- I was one of the first cohorts at the one I attended).
So, I dropped out after the first week and was refunded remaining tuition. I went back to the workforce and learned dev part-time.
Bootcamps seem to be about 12 weeks (that's 3 months) plus about $12,000 or so. Whereas I took 4 months & paid zero. But that said, I already knew how to program when I started my project.
The project was more about showing strangers that I had the skills I claimed to have.
I actually attended a bootcamp for 1 week, but thought it was over priced and didn't provide much instruction (25 students, 2 instructors, sometimes only 1 instructor. After a lecture on a topic, I'd spend 95% of the day just googling stuff. Also, the lessons were not structured in a pedagogical way in my experience there. That said, it was just after bootcamps became a thing-- I was one of the first cohorts at the one I attended).
So, I dropped out after the first week and was refunded remaining tuition. I went back to the workforce and learned dev part-time.
Bootcamps seem to be about 12 weeks (that's 3 months) plus about $12,000 or so. Whereas I took 4 months & paid zero. But that said, I already knew how to program when I started my project.
The project was more about showing strangers that I had the skills I claimed to have.
> I probably would've been promoted by now.
> I felt like that I should've got promoted after reporting those issues, especially since I found them within my frist two weeks.
> Even though I meet the qualifcations.
Your pattern of reasoning about your professional past seems to involve saying what you think "should have" happened as a result of your presupposition of deservedness, rather than considering how your approach might have effected the outcome negatively.
For example, finding a security bug in the first few weeks of a job is usually not a basis for promotion anywhere. Promotion is usually based on consistent dedication to improving something for the company or team over a long period of time.
This takes not only technical, but also emotional and interpersonal skills and awareness as others have mentioned, and the ability to balance your immediate personal desire for a promotion (which we all share) with the goals of the team or organization.
Basically, to progress in your career, you need both the grit to put your nose to the grindstone to stick through the tough part of any job, while also being open to others both in the technical and social sense, and developing a mindset of gratitude for all experiences, which is essential for learning.
Many of us have taken jobs we don't love, or that aren't at A-list employers, while simultaneously laying the groundwork for our personal growth. I spent a summer when in college literally filing the metal cases of networking equipment at a no-name network switch maker - effectively manual labor.
Sure, it wasn't a Google internship, but it sure taught me a lot about work, and I got to talk to some great network hardware and software engineers about their jobs. I work at Google today and sometimes when I have to do something that tests my need for instant gratification, I remember that experience and I'm grateful that I had it.
> I felt like that I should've got promoted after reporting those issues, especially since I found them within my frist two weeks.
> Even though I meet the qualifcations.
Your pattern of reasoning about your professional past seems to involve saying what you think "should have" happened as a result of your presupposition of deservedness, rather than considering how your approach might have effected the outcome negatively.
For example, finding a security bug in the first few weeks of a job is usually not a basis for promotion anywhere. Promotion is usually based on consistent dedication to improving something for the company or team over a long period of time.
This takes not only technical, but also emotional and interpersonal skills and awareness as others have mentioned, and the ability to balance your immediate personal desire for a promotion (which we all share) with the goals of the team or organization.
Basically, to progress in your career, you need both the grit to put your nose to the grindstone to stick through the tough part of any job, while also being open to others both in the technical and social sense, and developing a mindset of gratitude for all experiences, which is essential for learning.
Many of us have taken jobs we don't love, or that aren't at A-list employers, while simultaneously laying the groundwork for our personal growth. I spent a summer when in college literally filing the metal cases of networking equipment at a no-name network switch maker - effectively manual labor.
Sure, it wasn't a Google internship, but it sure taught me a lot about work, and I got to talk to some great network hardware and software engineers about their jobs. I work at Google today and sometimes when I have to do something that tests my need for instant gratification, I remember that experience and I'm grateful that I had it.
> felt like that I should've got promoted after reporting those issues, especially since I found them within my frist two weeks.
Dude. What are you thinking? You get hired in a CS role and you're raising red flags about security issues and expecting more than a pat on the back?
I've been a supervisor. Trainer. CS agent. Let me tell you what I see: A guy comes in with tons of supposed experience but gets a CS job. All he does is talk about what an awesome dev he is and all the work he's done. Highly opinionated, and feels he's above the job but "Hey I gotta work so I'll do whatever I can for now." Nice. Not.
Two weeks in he sees a security issue. Does he bring it to me? No, he sends a detailed e-mail to the VP in charge of the anti-fraud system. Scratch "team player" off the list. And now he wants something more than a pat on the back? He went above and beyond in finding an issue but didn't follow the proper channels to report it and then expects a promotion to another department before he's even had his 90 day review? WTH?
I've managed folks who've pulled crap like this, and I was not impressed. You need to learn your place and get off your pedestal. If you're going to sit at the right hand of the king, by all means aim for it! But don't start off by showing off and telling the king all the reasons YOU should be his right hand man. Instead, work your way up patiently. If you're "all that", then he will choose you.
TL;DR: Humble yourself. Do the job your were hired for and do it well! Work your way up by proving you deserve it, not by insisting that you deserve it. Promotions are earned.
Dude. What are you thinking? You get hired in a CS role and you're raising red flags about security issues and expecting more than a pat on the back?
I've been a supervisor. Trainer. CS agent. Let me tell you what I see: A guy comes in with tons of supposed experience but gets a CS job. All he does is talk about what an awesome dev he is and all the work he's done. Highly opinionated, and feels he's above the job but "Hey I gotta work so I'll do whatever I can for now." Nice. Not.
Two weeks in he sees a security issue. Does he bring it to me? No, he sends a detailed e-mail to the VP in charge of the anti-fraud system. Scratch "team player" off the list. And now he wants something more than a pat on the back? He went above and beyond in finding an issue but didn't follow the proper channels to report it and then expects a promotion to another department before he's even had his 90 day review? WTH?
I've managed folks who've pulled crap like this, and I was not impressed. You need to learn your place and get off your pedestal. If you're going to sit at the right hand of the king, by all means aim for it! But don't start off by showing off and telling the king all the reasons YOU should be his right hand man. Instead, work your way up patiently. If you're "all that", then he will choose you.
TL;DR: Humble yourself. Do the job your were hired for and do it well! Work your way up by proving you deserve it, not by insisting that you deserve it. Promotions are earned.
I think while this might be a hard read for OP, it might be the reality check they need.
>I felt like that I should've got promoted after reporting those issues, especially since I found them within my frist two weeks.
Dude, don't take this the wrong way but the workplace (and the world) do not operate the way you think they do. Your expectations are wildly out of line with reality. You need to adjust your expectations and learn some humility.
I am also confused about how you've never worked anywhere for more then two months but were also constantly maxing out your 1GB email quota in those two months? BTW, in the corporate world 1GB email quota is on the high end.
Dude, don't take this the wrong way but the workplace (and the world) do not operate the way you think they do. Your expectations are wildly out of line with reality. You need to adjust your expectations and learn some humility.
I am also confused about how you've never worked anywhere for more then two months but were also constantly maxing out your 1GB email quota in those two months? BTW, in the corporate world 1GB email quota is on the high end.
"Not a good fit" is about social skills, it has nothing to do with qualifications.
And no one gets promoted in the first year.
And no one gets promoted in the first year.
Two patterns - you don't stick with projects for long (perhaps really like freedom) and want a safety net (medical insurance). (Plus you could be a better communicator, the post you wrote turned out into not so coherent rambling halfway in, tbh.)
Unless you are willing to relocate to a saner country than the US, you need to give up one. Most commenters here advise to give up some of your freedom and stick it out somewhere, and it's a very valid advice. I just want to add that you can also consider going the opposite way - and just get a steady stream of shorter-term gigs freelancing (e.g. Upwork).
There is a lot of upsides - it's easy to work on projects completely remotely (including written only with no voice/video) which rules out any interpersonal issues; you can work on bite-sized projects which might be your cup of tea, at the same time some of the projects will turn into long term opportunities; you can actually put the best projects on your CV.
Freelancing won't give you great medical insurance. And at the beginning (with no history on the platform) it's a grind to succeed in the competition and you need to work your hourly rates up from a low base. Longer term it can pay nicely, you'll be working on a lot of different things and learn what you enjoy, and it should teach you a lot.
Derisk this experiment, try it out while you are looking for a job.
Unless you are willing to relocate to a saner country than the US, you need to give up one. Most commenters here advise to give up some of your freedom and stick it out somewhere, and it's a very valid advice. I just want to add that you can also consider going the opposite way - and just get a steady stream of shorter-term gigs freelancing (e.g. Upwork).
There is a lot of upsides - it's easy to work on projects completely remotely (including written only with no voice/video) which rules out any interpersonal issues; you can work on bite-sized projects which might be your cup of tea, at the same time some of the projects will turn into long term opportunities; you can actually put the best projects on your CV.
Freelancing won't give you great medical insurance. And at the beginning (with no history on the platform) it's a grind to succeed in the competition and you need to work your hourly rates up from a low base. Longer term it can pay nicely, you'll be working on a lot of different things and learn what you enjoy, and it should teach you a lot.
Derisk this experiment, try it out while you are looking for a job.
Yeah, I'm not sure how well it'd work out but Upwork is likely worth a try. I'm not sure if fixed rate or hourly would work out better.
It's important there, as anywhere, to approach interactions with humility.
It's important there, as anywhere, to approach interactions with humility.
No health insurance sucks, but you're in your 20s and you didn't mention any chronic illnesses. You need a year's worth of experience in one job--any job, so long as it's the same job--more than you need health insurance right now. I can sit here and rage about how terrible it is that you have to make that choice, but that won't help you get a job. If you manage to get hired again, hold onto that fucking job like it's the last life-vest on the Titanic because for you, it is. You're going to need to eat shit with a smile on your face for at least a year; work hard and don't rock the boat.
Almost nobody will give you a firm reason for why they rejected you for a job. If you press them, they'll offer vague shit like the examples you gave. Accept this; it sucks, but it's the way things are. You're not being "ghosted".
As others have said, it is absurd to expect a promotion within a few months of hiring in a low-level position. "Working your way up from the mailroom" still involves spending time doing actual work in the mailroom, not barging into the boss's office day 1 and demanding a raise because you found some stamps that fell behind the desk.
I'm hesitant to tell you to go back to school, because that can be expensive as hell, but maybe look into your state universities? Tuition can still be reasonable at some of them. If you're no longer a dependent of your parents, maybe you'll qualify for better financial aid. Also, some schools (including my alma mater, RIT) offer free tuition for employees--even if it's just mopping floors, you're making money and getting an education.
Almost nobody will give you a firm reason for why they rejected you for a job. If you press them, they'll offer vague shit like the examples you gave. Accept this; it sucks, but it's the way things are. You're not being "ghosted".
As others have said, it is absurd to expect a promotion within a few months of hiring in a low-level position. "Working your way up from the mailroom" still involves spending time doing actual work in the mailroom, not barging into the boss's office day 1 and demanding a raise because you found some stamps that fell behind the desk.
I'm hesitant to tell you to go back to school, because that can be expensive as hell, but maybe look into your state universities? Tuition can still be reasonable at some of them. If you're no longer a dependent of your parents, maybe you'll qualify for better financial aid. Also, some schools (including my alma mater, RIT) offer free tuition for employees--even if it's just mopping floors, you're making money and getting an education.
> If you're no longer a dependent of your parents, maybe you'll qualify for better financial aid.
FWIW “dependent status” in regards to financial aid has nothing to do with you tax classification and everything due to rigid, “unhackable” criteria. Save some extreme circumstances (homelessness, being an orphan, etc.) you are a dependent no matter what until 24 with no leniency. You can go read about people who’s parents disowned them, were incarcerated, etc. and basically being told “sucks to be you”. Not that I’ve seen anything to imply the OP is <24 though.
FWIW “dependent status” in regards to financial aid has nothing to do with you tax classification and everything due to rigid, “unhackable” criteria. Save some extreme circumstances (homelessness, being an orphan, etc.) you are a dependent no matter what until 24 with no leniency. You can go read about people who’s parents disowned them, were incarcerated, etc. and basically being told “sucks to be you”. Not that I’ve seen anything to imply the OP is <24 though.
I was trying to remember the exact details of how that worked when I wrote my post... thanks for the clarification!
Salesforce did give me once and I agree they were accurate and right in their reasoning.
I believe you are a fundamentally honest person who is trying to mimick the things grifters brag about doing and jump ahead of the line. I know this path because I tried it years ago. And most likely, it won't work - you don't have it in you to go that way.
But neither can you be a washed up 20-something begging for pity. You are probably a bit too competent and proud for that.
What you should do instead is be a "forever student". Now you are never there to snag the gig or steal the credit. You are there to study an "x". The x can be broad and impressive or narrow and miniscule. Jobs, businesses, investments, products, are all vehicles for pursuing this study. You will signal this at all times, and develop contacts and portfolio work pertinent to this study. Earnest emails asking "what should I do to go further with this" - questions that are of interest to the figure you are asking as well as yourself - are often golden tickets. Choose anything to start, and see where it pulls you. When you are in the vicinity of a good conversation and money is flowing around it, the money often ends up in your hands.
However, you also have to work on yourself enough to be a great student. That means valuing your body, household, social conduct and other things, and to see "access to resources" in a broader sense than salary. Taking a shit job or sacrificing some living conditions can be the right move if it buys you time, but if it makes your health deteriorate it might be the wrong move too. People get a lot of comfort out of doing the simple stuff well, and you have decades to get the big picture things right. It's OK to be unambitious.
Do some self-talk, journal a bit, exercise, eat well. Aim to get the concerns "out of you" so that you can act in the world with focus and purpose.
But neither can you be a washed up 20-something begging for pity. You are probably a bit too competent and proud for that.
What you should do instead is be a "forever student". Now you are never there to snag the gig or steal the credit. You are there to study an "x". The x can be broad and impressive or narrow and miniscule. Jobs, businesses, investments, products, are all vehicles for pursuing this study. You will signal this at all times, and develop contacts and portfolio work pertinent to this study. Earnest emails asking "what should I do to go further with this" - questions that are of interest to the figure you are asking as well as yourself - are often golden tickets. Choose anything to start, and see where it pulls you. When you are in the vicinity of a good conversation and money is flowing around it, the money often ends up in your hands.
However, you also have to work on yourself enough to be a great student. That means valuing your body, household, social conduct and other things, and to see "access to resources" in a broader sense than salary. Taking a shit job or sacrificing some living conditions can be the right move if it buys you time, but if it makes your health deteriorate it might be the wrong move too. People get a lot of comfort out of doing the simple stuff well, and you have decades to get the big picture things right. It's OK to be unambitious.
Do some self-talk, journal a bit, exercise, eat well. Aim to get the concerns "out of you" so that you can act in the world with focus and purpose.
Your post provides a recruiter any number of reasons not to hire you. In addition to providing a personal history of failure and excuses, you're airing the dirty laundry of the companies you did work for. Your misgivings with these may or may not be legitimate, however what recruiter wants their name attached to you the next time you feel like airing your grievances with the last company to lay you off?
> "I tried cold contacting executives at a few companies..."
I'm not an executive, however I am a team lead. If you found some way to contact me directly, unsolicited, on my work phone or email, I would blacklist you. Especially if you had circumvented some security measure in order to do so, let alone spoofing what we can only assume is the phone number of another employee? The time and attention of these professionals is valuable. Procurement process exists to prevent executives at prominent, successful companies being interrupted in such an inappropriate manner.
You sound like you need to adjust your attitude. From your perspective it may seem that you're an underappreciated talent just waiting for someone to give them a chance. From the perspective of a recruiter or hiring manager you look like a serious liability. Especially if you're looking to make a leap upwards into your career's 'next step', it's extremely imperative that you demonstrate your ability to succeed in simpler, entry-level positions.
Your writing is terrible, and unprofessional. If you can't get through this thread without discussing your mental health problems that's a serious red flag.
> "I tried cold contacting executives at a few companies..."
I'm not an executive, however I am a team lead. If you found some way to contact me directly, unsolicited, on my work phone or email, I would blacklist you. Especially if you had circumvented some security measure in order to do so, let alone spoofing what we can only assume is the phone number of another employee? The time and attention of these professionals is valuable. Procurement process exists to prevent executives at prominent, successful companies being interrupted in such an inappropriate manner.
You sound like you need to adjust your attitude. From your perspective it may seem that you're an underappreciated talent just waiting for someone to give them a chance. From the perspective of a recruiter or hiring manager you look like a serious liability. Especially if you're looking to make a leap upwards into your career's 'next step', it's extremely imperative that you demonstrate your ability to succeed in simpler, entry-level positions.
Your writing is terrible, and unprofessional. If you can't get through this thread without discussing your mental health problems that's a serious red flag.
> If you can't get through this thread without discussing your mental health problems that's a serious red flag.
That's unfair. Most of the mental health related comments are in direct response to someone else bringing it up.
That's unfair. Most of the mental health related comments are in direct response to someone else bringing it up.
And it is brought up because OPs text displays a weird lack of self reflection to a degree where it jumps into the face of many people.
The title of the post pins down the problem (OP describes themselves as "unhireable"), but in the post it is everybodies fault but their own and they fail to disclose why they think from the perspecitve of a company they are unhireable. I don't see any issue with making mistakes. But not learning from them to protect a mythical image you painted of yourself and your abilities is not only a problem but also a wasted chance that will come back to haunt you till you address it.
If I would be in the position of having spoofed a phone number to call a superior and loose a job, I would be ashamed or at least re-examine the state of mind and perspective that lead me to the dubious conclusion that this would be a good idea. The fact that OP seems to file that under "daring, but could have worked" rather than "this was totally inappropriate, how could I have ever thought this would be??" is what promts those mental health related comments.
What OP needs to get hireable is a reality check that leads to a lasting change of mind. This can be incredibly hard and painful, but if OP is clever they will know that this needs to be addressed and go through with it. The worst thing OP can do now, is gloss over that particular aspect of this thread and not address the discrepancy between their self image and what their words, decisions and actions communicate. The worst thing so to speak is to continue lying to themselves.
Know thyself and all that.
The title of the post pins down the problem (OP describes themselves as "unhireable"), but in the post it is everybodies fault but their own and they fail to disclose why they think from the perspecitve of a company they are unhireable. I don't see any issue with making mistakes. But not learning from them to protect a mythical image you painted of yourself and your abilities is not only a problem but also a wasted chance that will come back to haunt you till you address it.
If I would be in the position of having spoofed a phone number to call a superior and loose a job, I would be ashamed or at least re-examine the state of mind and perspective that lead me to the dubious conclusion that this would be a good idea. The fact that OP seems to file that under "daring, but could have worked" rather than "this was totally inappropriate, how could I have ever thought this would be??" is what promts those mental health related comments.
What OP needs to get hireable is a reality check that leads to a lasting change of mind. This can be incredibly hard and painful, but if OP is clever they will know that this needs to be addressed and go through with it. The worst thing OP can do now, is gloss over that particular aspect of this thread and not address the discrepancy between their self image and what their words, decisions and actions communicate. The worst thing so to speak is to continue lying to themselves.
Know thyself and all that.
> Your writing is terrible, and unprofessional. If you can't get through this thread without discussing your mental health problems that's a serious red flag.
Are you saying that in "professional" situations (job applications, or even asking for advice on HN), you need to hide your struggles and present an image of a flawless worker who handles all situations in stride, even though you can't live up to it because of mental/life struggles, depression, and the looming prospect of homelessness?
Are you saying that in "professional" situations (job applications, or even asking for advice on HN), you need to hide your struggles and present an image of a flawless worker who handles all situations in stride, even though you can't live up to it because of mental/life struggles, depression, and the looming prospect of homelessness?
I don't think this is an issue. What is an issue however is the lack of self reflection OP has about their weaknesses and the issues that arise from their mental condition. To change something OP has to face the affect their character/behaviour has on their environment, job chances ans interpersonal relationships within these jobs. The lack of even the slightest hint of thinking about that is what is critical, not mental health issues per se.
The time and attention of these professionals is valuable.
LOL. Gotta keep those bits flowing so idiots can keep jacking off and clicking on ads.
LOL. Gotta keep those bits flowing so idiots can keep jacking off and clicking on ads.
With compassion: you seem paranoid. Lots of talk about security and hackers and spies. Your submission history is telling. Have you thought about getting therapy?
I get the feeling from your writing that you are conflating social signalling and personal economic outcomes. You seem to want people to think you are smart more than you want to succeed? Or at least those ideas seem in conflict.
Do you want a job at a Big Name or do you want money?
Have you thought of starting a business? That way you don't need permission from other (besides customers) to succeed.
Probably better is, as many others have suggested, to get a job a smaller company that will have you. Then build something on the side.
I get the feeling from your writing that you are conflating social signalling and personal economic outcomes. You seem to want people to think you are smart more than you want to succeed? Or at least those ideas seem in conflict.
Do you want a job at a Big Name or do you want money?
Have you thought of starting a business? That way you don't need permission from other (besides customers) to succeed.
Probably better is, as many others have suggested, to get a job a smaller company that will have you. Then build something on the side.
"You're unable to find employment, which means either you're carrying yourself incorrectly or you're unable to perform the tasks required of an entry-level applicant." -VoidMint in this thread
This needs to be reiterated. It doesn't matter if you're smarter than Donald Knuth if you come across poorly or can't answer interview questions. Based on your background I suspect you answer the interview questions but you have no idea how to work with people.
Working with people that are nice is hard, working with people that are 'difficult' is damn near impossible and you sound difficult. When someone presents an idea to you that's actually stupid what do you say? How do you tell people no? Do you think about the feelings of those around you before you say something? These are things that can be taken for granted but are important for working within an organization (which you have limited experience with).
I'm awkward as all hell but was able to make it in industry by consciously improving the way I interact with other people (especially when I don't agree with them). This isn't an insurmountable challenge but you have to identify what's causing you problems before you can fix it.
This needs to be reiterated. It doesn't matter if you're smarter than Donald Knuth if you come across poorly or can't answer interview questions. Based on your background I suspect you answer the interview questions but you have no idea how to work with people.
Working with people that are nice is hard, working with people that are 'difficult' is damn near impossible and you sound difficult. When someone presents an idea to you that's actually stupid what do you say? How do you tell people no? Do you think about the feelings of those around you before you say something? These are things that can be taken for granted but are important for working within an organization (which you have limited experience with).
I'm awkward as all hell but was able to make it in industry by consciously improving the way I interact with other people (especially when I don't agree with them). This isn't an insurmountable challenge but you have to identify what's causing you problems before you can fix it.
The candid answer, from reading your post and especially replies, is that you come across as a bit entitled and likely get denied job opportunities because of how you communicate.
That might be good news, because you don’t have to change yourself but reframe your perspective.
Preferably I’d suggest a mental health professional who focuses on your self narrative.. but I understand that can be expensive.
Perhaps you could do something like a HealthyGamerGG coach. They are more affordable, and I think they’ll be able to give you the feedback you need to get past this.
Best of luck!
That might be good news, because you don’t have to change yourself but reframe your perspective.
Preferably I’d suggest a mental health professional who focuses on your self narrative.. but I understand that can be expensive.
Perhaps you could do something like a HealthyGamerGG coach. They are more affordable, and I think they’ll be able to give you the feedback you need to get past this.
Best of luck!
1) you sound very intelligent and capable even though you don't have much to prove it apparently
2) I get a weird vibe from the way you write/speak
3) I've been cold rejected from almost every one of those companies you listed, and I'm a senior engineer with a decade of experience making SV money and doing just fine. Look for smaller companies that people haven't heard of, there are thousands. It took me years of working at small startups before I broke into the big corps.
4) someone mentioned "tainting" your rep with non-dev jobs and sadly this is true. You need to get dev experience on your resume no matter what, the good news is that it's never been easier. Come up with an idea, build something, buy a $2 domain, and bam, you are now a fancy Founder of Tech Project and have dev experience on your resume, not manual labor. Bonus points if you actually stick to the project. Speaking of which...
5) Build projects. Like as many as you can. I aim to build a new project 1x a month just to keep in the habit. Anytime I need to interview, I have tons of live, production software examples to show off. HMs love to see someone who can ship code. It is the #1 thing I would do if I were you to get a job. Build anything. Just build stuff and put it online. This is the next best thing to having formal W2 jobs on your resume.
6) totally random and I'm not affiliated, but check out usertesting.com. I sent this to a friend the other day who is also struggling to break into tech - they will apparently pay $10 for every 20 minutes of testing. Better than being homeless and at least it's in tech and seems relatively accessible.
7) some of the best dev gigs and jobs I found early on in my career were diamonds lost in the Craigslist rough, just sayin’
Wishing you the best of luck.
2) I get a weird vibe from the way you write/speak
3) I've been cold rejected from almost every one of those companies you listed, and I'm a senior engineer with a decade of experience making SV money and doing just fine. Look for smaller companies that people haven't heard of, there are thousands. It took me years of working at small startups before I broke into the big corps.
4) someone mentioned "tainting" your rep with non-dev jobs and sadly this is true. You need to get dev experience on your resume no matter what, the good news is that it's never been easier. Come up with an idea, build something, buy a $2 domain, and bam, you are now a fancy Founder of Tech Project and have dev experience on your resume, not manual labor. Bonus points if you actually stick to the project. Speaking of which...
5) Build projects. Like as many as you can. I aim to build a new project 1x a month just to keep in the habit. Anytime I need to interview, I have tons of live, production software examples to show off. HMs love to see someone who can ship code. It is the #1 thing I would do if I were you to get a job. Build anything. Just build stuff and put it online. This is the next best thing to having formal W2 jobs on your resume.
6) totally random and I'm not affiliated, but check out usertesting.com. I sent this to a friend the other day who is also struggling to break into tech - they will apparently pay $10 for every 20 minutes of testing. Better than being homeless and at least it's in tech and seems relatively accessible.
7) some of the best dev gigs and jobs I found early on in my career were diamonds lost in the Craigslist rough, just sayin’
Wishing you the best of luck.
On #5- Make sure to actually drive to completion. It doesn't have to be perfect or what you originally envisioned, but it does need to run without too much error in a way someone else can use/understand. A lot of abandoned useless github repos isn't nearly as useful as a few cool demonstrable tools/sites.
You sound autistic. Many of your experiences feel similar to mine.
Here's what happens to autistic people in general:
- They get ghosted a LOT because NT people generally don't know how to deal with them (and social training only goes so far).
- They get fired / laid off / pushed out / excluded a lot with no real reason given, and nobody will care if it's just/legal or not because "something about him is just ... wrong".
- They tend to have very small networks or none at all.
- The less "crazy" you behave, the worse it is because you fall into the uncanny valley. The more "crazy" you behave, the more tolerant people are of your quirks, but the less they take you seriously.
I was even ghosted by a 7-11 store when I applied as a clerk in my late teens, and wondered why the sign remained up for another month when he didn't even get back to me.
Computer jobs were easy for autistics in the old days because nobody expected much of you other than to get the thing working. Only managers and software architects needed people skills. That's no longer the case in the modern highschool-like software house. People are a LOT judgier and intolerant. You need to do whatever you can to bridge the ever-increasing divide, even faking if you have to, or risk getting pushed out. I've had mixed results saying up front that I'm autistic. Discrimination is a huge problem here.
One piece of advice I can definitely give is: Don't do any crazy stuff like bypassing access controls. That only works if you also have the panache to wow the person within 10 seconds of the intrusion.
Here's what happens to autistic people in general:
- They get ghosted a LOT because NT people generally don't know how to deal with them (and social training only goes so far).
- They get fired / laid off / pushed out / excluded a lot with no real reason given, and nobody will care if it's just/legal or not because "something about him is just ... wrong".
- They tend to have very small networks or none at all.
- The less "crazy" you behave, the worse it is because you fall into the uncanny valley. The more "crazy" you behave, the more tolerant people are of your quirks, but the less they take you seriously.
I was even ghosted by a 7-11 store when I applied as a clerk in my late teens, and wondered why the sign remained up for another month when he didn't even get back to me.
Computer jobs were easy for autistics in the old days because nobody expected much of you other than to get the thing working. Only managers and software architects needed people skills. That's no longer the case in the modern highschool-like software house. People are a LOT judgier and intolerant. You need to do whatever you can to bridge the ever-increasing divide, even faking if you have to, or risk getting pushed out. I've had mixed results saying up front that I'm autistic. Discrimination is a huge problem here.
One piece of advice I can definitely give is: Don't do any crazy stuff like bypassing access controls. That only works if you also have the panache to wow the person within 10 seconds of the intrusion.
Your English is very good, but there are some issues in your writing that could be holding you back, especially if your resumé is written with the same level of attention that you gave to this submission. These things would stand out to me, to the point where I'd probably discount your resume.
It's the little things, like how inconsistently you're cutting up sentences with periods, how you leave off the subject of the sentence in a couple of places, and the typos (lowpay, dropout, promt as quick examples).
Honestly? Find a way to speak to a therapist. Many options available for people without insurance, some are even free. If you could land a diagnosis, you could begin to understand what's holding you back (if anything) or if there are just some things you could work on (like slowing down a bit).
It's the little things, like how inconsistently you're cutting up sentences with periods, how you leave off the subject of the sentence in a couple of places, and the typos (lowpay, dropout, promt as quick examples).
Honestly? Find a way to speak to a therapist. Many options available for people without insurance, some are even free. If you could land a diagnosis, you could begin to understand what's holding you back (if anything) or if there are just some things you could work on (like slowing down a bit).
Chances are you somehow act really creepy, which you do not see yourself. Ask a friend for a mock interview. Record it and watch later.
Don't have a friend? Hire someone. A friend cannot do mock interviews? Hand them a list of 10 questions that you remember from all those previous attempts and tell them to read it in solemn voice.
Nowadays the interviews are remote. Let a friend observe your interview and then ask their opinion. (I think recording these might be likely illegal? idk)
Don't have a friend? Hire someone. A friend cannot do mock interviews? Hand them a list of 10 questions that you remember from all those previous attempts and tell them to read it in solemn voice.
Nowadays the interviews are remote. Let a friend observe your interview and then ask their opinion. (I think recording these might be likely illegal? idk)
Well I was homeschooled since the 6th grade. So, I can understand how I can be weird/socially inept. I think that I'm more demure than creepy/werid imo.
I did a mock interview with a friend a while back. But good suggestions for sure.
I did a mock interview with a friend a while back. But good suggestions for sure.
You’re young, inexperienced, and uneducated?
College and good internships will improve upon all of that. If you can’t afford college, you’ll need to join the military (I recommend the Air Force if you want to take it easy, or the Marines if you don’t) and slave for four years. But it seems to me that your biggest stumbling block may be that you are shooting for the moon without realizing it.
College and good internships will improve upon all of that. If you can’t afford college, you’ll need to join the military (I recommend the Air Force if you want to take it easy, or the Marines if you don’t) and slave for four years. But it seems to me that your biggest stumbling block may be that you are shooting for the moon without realizing it.
Military is definitely an overlooked option. If sign up for an intel or cyber job, you'll probably have a 9-5 job after boot camp, get trainining, certifications, tuition assistance to finish a degree, veterans preference on jobs once you get out, and probably a security clearance. Even as a Marine it wasn't bad; the non-intel Marines used to joke that we were civilians in uniform. It can also help iron out some personality issues unless you have a big problem with authority. The military definitely isn't a bunch of mindless robots like you see on TV and movies.
Well said! If you can’t turn around your life yourself (I couldn’t), you can at least delegate that task to an organization willing to spend ungodly amounts of money and time on making you a productive member of its society. Whether you like it or not.
Definitely. Ignore the pay. It’s worth it. Also ignore SV pay. It’s not. Take all the crazy assignments. Fringe personalities are on the front lines. Go there. That’s the part of my career I regret least.
See, but intelligent people will consider you a parasite for assisting in US imperialism.
Maybe we could recommend a path that does not include indiscriminant murder overseas?
Maybe we could recommend a path that does not include indiscriminant murder overseas?
I was adding this as a top level, but realized someone probably already mentioned it.
If: * you're under 30 * you don't have any health problems or diagnosed mental health issues * you don't have a criminal record (or it's trivial stuff) * you are willing to make a drastic change in your relationship to authority
then the military might be an option. You won't like it, and they absolutely not put up with any shit about you knowing better than your superiors (hint: it's completely irrelevant if you do), but that is a way to hit reset.
You mention the CIA and they can be pretty selective, but that also suggests you're okay with patriotism. Remember the way to tell a recruiter is lying is their lips are moving. If you want a specific job get it in writing, and then assume a 50:50 chance.
If you want a job that translates to the outside world and aren't keen on getting shot at, I recommend the Air Force. The Navy isn't that bad in that regard either.
If: * you're under 30 * you don't have any health problems or diagnosed mental health issues * you don't have a criminal record (or it's trivial stuff) * you are willing to make a drastic change in your relationship to authority
then the military might be an option. You won't like it, and they absolutely not put up with any shit about you knowing better than your superiors (hint: it's completely irrelevant if you do), but that is a way to hit reset.
You mention the CIA and they can be pretty selective, but that also suggests you're okay with patriotism. Remember the way to tell a recruiter is lying is their lips are moving. If you want a specific job get it in writing, and then assume a 50:50 chance.
If you want a job that translates to the outside world and aren't keen on getting shot at, I recommend the Air Force. The Navy isn't that bad in that regard either.
> * you don't have any health problems or diagnosed mental health issues *
Or history of such, I was reject, in part because of two medications I was prescribed (and SSRI and an anti-psychotic) at 11 years old from two different branches even after traveling across states to be re ever lured by the doctors and getting a letter saying I was good.
OTOH my stepbrother was diagnosed with ADHD and was prescribed adderall for years, and was able to get in.
Or history of such, I was reject, in part because of two medications I was prescribed (and SSRI and an anti-psychotic) at 11 years old from two different branches even after traveling across states to be re ever lured by the doctors and getting a letter saying I was good.
OTOH my stepbrother was diagnosed with ADHD and was prescribed adderall for years, and was able to get in.
Need more details to give you a more accurate feedback. How long you have been working/in the industry in general ? It seems like you have done a few things over the years but don't really seem to have stuck to something that made you a specialist or someone worth hiring. Being brutal here but making assumptions. Do you quit a lot ? Do you have any criminal records that you are not aware of ? Are you too opinionated or argumentative in interviews even before understanding more about the team/product/company etc ? Are you that person who "knows everything" ? Lot of factors could be causing you to lose out.
I've quit a lot. I haven't lasted anywhere longer than 2 months. I contribute a lot and then quit after I feel like I'm not getting appropriate compensation. Though I certainly agree that I need to stick with a job. I think ageism, and other biases are in place though. More years of experience I get the less disdained I will be I think.
I don't think I'm a know it all. I'm only in my early 20s. I definitely have a lot to learn, and I'm receptive to new stuff.
I don't think I'm a know it all. I'm only in my early 20s. I definitely have a lot to learn, and I'm receptive to new stuff.
This is 100% your problem. If I worked someplace for two months I wouldn't even put it on my resume. On the flip side of that if I got a resume with only a bunch of 2 month jobs on it I wouldn't likely interview you.
As other comments have mentioned you have to stick to something for a while. You didn't even finish school so you cant even say "At least I stuck with my degree". The way you read to me is that you will jump ship the moment you aren't liking something.
> I contribute a lot and then quit after I feel like I'm not getting appropriate compensation
Two things about this:
If you don't feel the compensation is appropriate you shouldn't take the job in the first place. If you've been somewhere for a while and been a high contributor then ask for a raise. Two months isn't nearly long enough to make that assessment.
Also you say you contribute "a lot" but I'm betting that it's not as much as you think. It probably only feels like a lot because you haven't ever stuck around anywhere long enough to see what "a lot" looks like. Hint: It's a marathon, not a sprint.
As other comments have mentioned you have to stick to something for a while. You didn't even finish school so you cant even say "At least I stuck with my degree". The way you read to me is that you will jump ship the moment you aren't liking something.
> I contribute a lot and then quit after I feel like I'm not getting appropriate compensation
Two things about this:
If you don't feel the compensation is appropriate you shouldn't take the job in the first place. If you've been somewhere for a while and been a high contributor then ask for a raise. Two months isn't nearly long enough to make that assessment.
Also you say you contribute "a lot" but I'm betting that it's not as much as you think. It probably only feels like a lot because you haven't ever stuck around anywhere long enough to see what "a lot" looks like. Hint: It's a marathon, not a sprint.
Seconding this. The advice I've always heard is that if you quit a job in under a year, it's a red flag. Generally you get one freebie where people will understand if you had to quit because of a bad fit or a toxic situation or whatever - though you'll probably have to talk about that in your interview - but if there's a pattern of it happening over time, that's a huge red flag.
If I were you I'd try and get one solid year of a job on my resume, to start with. You said you're worried about becoming homeless anyway- why would you quit a $15/hour job if you don't have anything else lined up? Unless it's just a really toxic/destructive situation, that seems like a mistake. Paying the bills for the time being and building up some solid work experience seem like aligned goals right now. The healthcare thing is unfortunate (it's unfortunate that anybody in our society has to be in that position), but I don't think quitting without another offer is going to help.
Best of luck.
If I were you I'd try and get one solid year of a job on my resume, to start with. You said you're worried about becoming homeless anyway- why would you quit a $15/hour job if you don't have anything else lined up? Unless it's just a really toxic/destructive situation, that seems like a mistake. Paying the bills for the time being and building up some solid work experience seem like aligned goals right now. The healthcare thing is unfortunate (it's unfortunate that anybody in our society has to be in that position), but I don't think quitting without another offer is going to help.
Best of luck.
Just chiming in to say, while this is mostly true, it is not always true.
I had a stint of about 2 years of job hopping every 3-6 months at the beginning of my career. Worked great for me every time.
The trick is to get the new job while you still are employed, not quitting and then looking for something new. Employed = attractive to other employers, but still a bit of a red flag. Unemployed = just a big red flag.
I had a stint of about 2 years of job hopping every 3-6 months at the beginning of my career. Worked great for me every time.
The trick is to get the new job while you still are employed, not quitting and then looking for something new. Employed = attractive to other employers, but still a bit of a red flag. Unemployed = just a big red flag.
when you're working you can always toss it off as "exploring my options". I had a period of 4 years where I traded jobs every 1.5 years. This strategy works well if you're starting at a company with a low bar and are working towards a top firm. Companies don't usually question it as long as you are moving up with each switch.
Once you cross the 5-7 years of experience mark companies will start to ask the question more pointedly as 1.5 years roughly corresponds with a performance review cycle. We all know engineers who have failed upwards or outwards for years but are competent enough to pass an interview and personable enough not to be fired. Senior level positions also tend to involve multi-year commitments that the company needs to know you're onboard for.
Once you cross the 5-7 years of experience mark companies will start to ask the question more pointedly as 1.5 years roughly corresponds with a performance review cycle. We all know engineers who have failed upwards or outwards for years but are competent enough to pass an interview and personable enough not to be fired. Senior level positions also tend to involve multi-year commitments that the company needs to know you're onboard for.
Almost no company has the internal processes to adjust someone's compensation within two months. If you don't feel like your compensation at signing is appropriate, you need to figure it out then. Otherwise, your best shot is when the company's standard process is - end of year reviews, after one year at the job, whatever.
Also, at least in tech, almost no company will have made any serious attempt to evaluate your contributions after two months. It's assumed you're still figuring things out (both technical and social/political) and not making meaningful contributions until well past that point, and the nature of things you'll do even two years into a job are qualitatively different from those you're doing two months in (even if you are finding things that are valuable to do). So they don't have the data to re-evaluate you two months in, even if they had the process.
It is of course technically possible for someone sufficiently senior at the company (like, head of HR, C-suite, etc.) to override the standard process. But why should they do that for you? It's generally not in their interest, because it will endanger their own relationships with all the people under them implementing the standard process, even if it's the right decision, and they have no reason to be confident that it's the right decision.
I think that's something you need to figure out. What happened with the SVP/CISO phone calls that you mentioned in your post? What did you tell these people, whose job isn't recruiting candidates (there's a whole different department for that), to convince them to bypass the usual process and stick their own necks out and risk their own position to get you into the system? What did they say in return?
Also, at least in tech, almost no company will have made any serious attempt to evaluate your contributions after two months. It's assumed you're still figuring things out (both technical and social/political) and not making meaningful contributions until well past that point, and the nature of things you'll do even two years into a job are qualitatively different from those you're doing two months in (even if you are finding things that are valuable to do). So they don't have the data to re-evaluate you two months in, even if they had the process.
It is of course technically possible for someone sufficiently senior at the company (like, head of HR, C-suite, etc.) to override the standard process. But why should they do that for you? It's generally not in their interest, because it will endanger their own relationships with all the people under them implementing the standard process, even if it's the right decision, and they have no reason to be confident that it's the right decision.
I think that's something you need to figure out. What happened with the SVP/CISO phone calls that you mentioned in your post? What did you tell these people, whose job isn't recruiting candidates (there's a whole different department for that), to convince them to bypass the usual process and stick their own necks out and risk their own position to get you into the system? What did they say in return?
> I think ageism, and other biases are in place though.
> I'm only in my early 20s
Do you mean ... ageism against young people? I think from what it sounds like your expectation of compensation might be a little inflated based on your experience. Straight out of university I took a junior grad job that paid peanuts, but stuck with it for about 2 years and that was a solid basis to move somewhere that was a much better work environment and paid better.
I think as another poster may have said, you probably just need to stick it out with something for a couple of years to get that solid basis. As you say, if you're in your early twenties you have plenty of time and it's just the start of your career!
Do you mean ... ageism against young people? I think from what it sounds like your expectation of compensation might be a little inflated based on your experience. Straight out of university I took a junior grad job that paid peanuts, but stuck with it for about 2 years and that was a solid basis to move somewhere that was a much better work environment and paid better.
I think as another poster may have said, you probably just need to stick it out with something for a couple of years to get that solid basis. As you say, if you're in your early twenties you have plenty of time and it's just the start of your career!
I do some hiring for my company, and if I saw a resume with numerous <2 month positions it would be a red flag. Try lowering your expectations, find any position and stick with it. You can continue to apply for better roles while you have that job. Worst case you end up there for 6 + months which looks much better on a resume. Best of luck!
> more about the team/product/company etc ? Are you that person who "knows everything" ? Lot of factors could be causing you to lose out.
2 months each job? holy shnizzle nobody will hire you like that. Next gig you get better suck it up for 2 years. I don't care how you don't like it. 2 months is barely enough for a ramp up. Have the fortitude and tenacity to stay on something even if it sucks. Remember your parent's stories "back in the day i walked 10 miles to school barefooted blah blah blah". That's the equivaalent of staying 2-3 years in a job. Everyone knows a job sucks even at FAANG companies.
2 months each job? holy shnizzle nobody will hire you like that. Next gig you get better suck it up for 2 years. I don't care how you don't like it. 2 months is barely enough for a ramp up. Have the fortitude and tenacity to stay on something even if it sucks. Remember your parent's stories "back in the day i walked 10 miles to school barefooted blah blah blah". That's the equivaalent of staying 2-3 years in a job. Everyone knows a job sucks even at FAANG companies.
You know what your compensation is going to be when you get the job offer. You agree to that offer, then 2 months later you say "oh I contributed a lot so you need to pay me more"?
Why do you feel like if you do more they have to pay you more? You agreed to give an employer 40 hours of your time to perform the responsibilities the job requires in exchange for an agreed upon, fixed amount of money. That's what the agreement between you and the employer is.
If you have other expectations, you should negotiate them before accepting the offer. Don't like the offer? Don't accept it. Once you accept it though, stick to your word, don't change the terms 2 months in because you feel like it.
Corporations just don't think the way you seem to - you don't get rewarded for A+ grades. You get the same paycheck. That's the default for most people at your level.
Don't set yourself up for failure by going into a job thinking you'll do more and get more money. You won't at first, and definitely not within 2 months. Maybe after 2 years as a promotion, but that means you have to work at the same company in the same position for 2+ years.
Why do you feel like if you do more they have to pay you more? You agreed to give an employer 40 hours of your time to perform the responsibilities the job requires in exchange for an agreed upon, fixed amount of money. That's what the agreement between you and the employer is.
If you have other expectations, you should negotiate them before accepting the offer. Don't like the offer? Don't accept it. Once you accept it though, stick to your word, don't change the terms 2 months in because you feel like it.
Corporations just don't think the way you seem to - you don't get rewarded for A+ grades. You get the same paycheck. That's the default for most people at your level.
Don't set yourself up for failure by going into a job thinking you'll do more and get more money. You won't at first, and definitely not within 2 months. Maybe after 2 years as a promotion, but that means you have to work at the same company in the same position for 2+ years.
You asked for brutal, so here is my take, with no sugar-coating.
I don't hire people to promote them in two months. If I thought they were going to be up for promotion that quickly I'd have hired them at the next level up to start with.
Similarly, how can you feel like you're not getting appropriate compensation when sixty days ago you agreed to that wage? Everyone contributes a lot, that's what they're paid to do. Most large orgs of the type you've listed have set promotion cycles and nothing you do short of buying the damn company is going to get you special consideration for that.
Also, ageism doesn't really work that way for lower-level jobs like you've described. People in tech are not afraid to hand responsibility to a young employee who has demonstrated responsibility. Related: you cannot possibly demonstrate responsibility in two months. Two months is essentially zero hours of tenure. I don't even consider an engineer fully onboarded before they've been here a year.
I think you need to focus on strategic thinking rather than ladder-climbing at your next job. Get a foot in the door and then start asking yourself how your contributions can align with the strategic goals of your org, then work along those directions. Keep your sense of entitlement tamped down, because most managers do not want to hear it, but pursue opportunities within the org as they come your way.
At this point you need to hold a job for at least five years just as damage control for your resume. By then I think you'll have a better sense of how to handle these places.
I don't hire people to promote them in two months. If I thought they were going to be up for promotion that quickly I'd have hired them at the next level up to start with.
Similarly, how can you feel like you're not getting appropriate compensation when sixty days ago you agreed to that wage? Everyone contributes a lot, that's what they're paid to do. Most large orgs of the type you've listed have set promotion cycles and nothing you do short of buying the damn company is going to get you special consideration for that.
Also, ageism doesn't really work that way for lower-level jobs like you've described. People in tech are not afraid to hand responsibility to a young employee who has demonstrated responsibility. Related: you cannot possibly demonstrate responsibility in two months. Two months is essentially zero hours of tenure. I don't even consider an engineer fully onboarded before they've been here a year.
I think you need to focus on strategic thinking rather than ladder-climbing at your next job. Get a foot in the door and then start asking yourself how your contributions can align with the strategic goals of your org, then work along those directions. Keep your sense of entitlement tamped down, because most managers do not want to hear it, but pursue opportunities within the org as they come your way.
At this point you need to hold a job for at least five years just as damage control for your resume. By then I think you'll have a better sense of how to handle these places.
> I think ageism, and other biases are in place though.
I don't understand. Aren't tech jobs generally in favor of young people? I've heard ageism against old people, but not the other way around. I guess you're mistakenly associating people's negative reactions with your age?
I don't understand. Aren't tech jobs generally in favor of young people? I've heard ageism against old people, but not the other way around. I guess you're mistakenly associating people's negative reactions with your age?
There's definitely age-ism at both ends of the spectrum. Companies really love to hire starry-eyed juniors who will work overtime without asking for extra pay. They depend on their willingness to do this, and to 'prove themselves' because, well, they need to. It's very common for new engineers to fall for the sunk-cost fallacy of 'well I haven't been here long enough to quit yet, but I'm learning a lot and things are bound to get better'.
There's also a wealth of employeres who will hire people for below-market pay, and those are exactly the type of people who need to prove themselves and can't really afford to leave the job. It's kind of a catch-22, and hard to empathize with people in this situation once you've earned your stripes and feel you're past it.
The problem with OP is that they haven't been able to get the kind of job where they really respect your abilities. But they haven't gone through the grind to show prospective employers they're worth that.
I get it, that grind is really demoralizing, stressful, and stacked in favour of the employers. If you're actually capable of doing work that commands higher pay, but you don't have the network, the social skills, or the qualifications (including work history and references), I get why you'd feel jaded. I was in the same boat 6 years ago and still haven't fully shaken the mentality its left me with.
Anyway, just wanted to remind those of you who have distanced yourselves enough from that period of your lives, or who maybe skipped it altogether with recognition in the form of a degree or open-source contributions, that ageism definitely swings the other way as well.
There's also a wealth of employeres who will hire people for below-market pay, and those are exactly the type of people who need to prove themselves and can't really afford to leave the job. It's kind of a catch-22, and hard to empathize with people in this situation once you've earned your stripes and feel you're past it.
The problem with OP is that they haven't been able to get the kind of job where they really respect your abilities. But they haven't gone through the grind to show prospective employers they're worth that.
I get it, that grind is really demoralizing, stressful, and stacked in favour of the employers. If you're actually capable of doing work that commands higher pay, but you don't have the network, the social skills, or the qualifications (including work history and references), I get why you'd feel jaded. I was in the same boat 6 years ago and still haven't fully shaken the mentality its left me with.
Anyway, just wanted to remind those of you who have distanced yourselves enough from that period of your lives, or who maybe skipped it altogether with recognition in the form of a degree or open-source contributions, that ageism definitely swings the other way as well.
> I haven't lasted anywhere longer than 2 months
You need to work somewhere, literally anywhere, for at least a year.
Hiring and on boarding is expensive, such that virtually no software companies are getting any ROI for someone who is there for two months or less. I get you may have had impact early on at these places, but I guarantee they all still lost money on you.
tldr; on paper you're a losing bet, build a history of being a winning bet and more companies will come around.
You need to work somewhere, literally anywhere, for at least a year.
Hiring and on boarding is expensive, such that virtually no software companies are getting any ROI for someone who is there for two months or less. I get you may have had impact early on at these places, but I guarantee they all still lost money on you.
tldr; on paper you're a losing bet, build a history of being a winning bet and more companies will come around.
> I contribute a lot and then quit after I feel like I'm not getting appropriate compensation.
Compensation is a negotiation game, so go and learn to negotiate well. One key aspect is to understand the perspective of the other side. In this particular case, you would learn that giving pay raises "out of cycle" is a pain for all involved, and a manager doesn't want to discuss salary every time a report of his does something great.
If you want something, make it easier for others to give it to you.
Compensation is a negotiation game, so go and learn to negotiate well. One key aspect is to understand the perspective of the other side. In this particular case, you would learn that giving pay raises "out of cycle" is a pain for all involved, and a manager doesn't want to discuss salary every time a report of his does something great.
If you want something, make it easier for others to give it to you.
Another thing is you may think you contribute a lot, but if you put in your 2 weeks and your boss does not try to keep you (counter offer or whatever) then they obviously don't think the same thing about you...
If you spend less than 2 months on the job before you put in your 2 weeks, no boss will try to keep you.
I once gave notice before the 2 month mark because I had a major life event change, boss was flexible and talked me out of it and I stayed there for several more years.
Sure, but you had a good justification.
[deleted]
> I haven't lasted anywhere longer than 2 months.
Friend, this here's the problem. Consider that a working environment _when it's going well_ is a mutually supporting cooperation of individuals to some basic end. Could be you're creating something new, could be you're maintaining something but, the big thing to understand is, you're doing it with other people and you're all relying on one another _to do your share_. Ageism, Southern accents (hidy, fellow Southerner) and other biases haven't got anything on this one problem: you quit. Two months in isn't anything, even if you are talented and, to be blunt about it, two months isn't enough time to develop anything but a surface level understanding of something. There's no way to look at a resume with a string of 2-month stints and think that you'll be around to _do your work_ and that'll impact the team.
Hell, a few years ago I did a very short stint -- something like six months -- at Unity, moved on to Dropbox with my team from Unity and then got fired from Dropbox within four months. At this point I had 15+ years in my career and when I was searching for jobs _everyone_ asked me to explain why I'd switched jobs so rapidly. It's just a big red flag, even if you're someone that has shown they'll come and do the work all the rest of your career.
> I contribute a lot...
This contradicts you working no more than two months. _You_ might feel like you contribute a lot but I would suggest that if you stuck out a job for a year and then considered what you'd got done in that year what you see as "a lot" now won't seem like much.
> and then quit after I feel like I'm not getting appropriate compensation.
Tell you what, in my heart of hearts I feel like everyone ought to make a living wage no matter how unstable of an employee they are and no matter how inflated their sense of their work is. But, in the US that's not the system we have. Your compensation is some function of the employer's sense of your worth derived from your past work history, what you negotiate for and a discounting based on your perceived risk to the employer. Someone that will not work for more than two months is a _very_ risky employee and will get a heavy discount on their compensation for the first year because of it, at least. You probably are getting appropriate compensation in this system of ours based on how unreliable you are.
It seems to me from what you've said here that you've dug yourself into a very deep hole. I don't know why you have done this, friend, but you have. If you're near homeless suggestions to do Bootcamps or finish schooling -- while _extremely_ valid, you should eventually do one of these things -- are probably too late in the game for you. I second recommendations to reach out to headhunters and land yourself any kind of gig and then stick with _whatever_ you get. Pay's going to be shit because you're a risky hire. Don't prove to be a risky hire. Keep doing good work, consistently. After a year, ask for a raise. See about finishing your schooling but DO NOT QUIT YOUR JOB. After a _few years_ start interviewing for another gig without quitting your job first. People are going to ask you about your resume of 2-month stints and you'll have to explain it as a thing you've grown out of, because if you get to this point you will have done.
Godspeed. My email's in my profile if any of this has struck a chord and you'd like to talk or what not.
Friend, this here's the problem. Consider that a working environment _when it's going well_ is a mutually supporting cooperation of individuals to some basic end. Could be you're creating something new, could be you're maintaining something but, the big thing to understand is, you're doing it with other people and you're all relying on one another _to do your share_. Ageism, Southern accents (hidy, fellow Southerner) and other biases haven't got anything on this one problem: you quit. Two months in isn't anything, even if you are talented and, to be blunt about it, two months isn't enough time to develop anything but a surface level understanding of something. There's no way to look at a resume with a string of 2-month stints and think that you'll be around to _do your work_ and that'll impact the team.
Hell, a few years ago I did a very short stint -- something like six months -- at Unity, moved on to Dropbox with my team from Unity and then got fired from Dropbox within four months. At this point I had 15+ years in my career and when I was searching for jobs _everyone_ asked me to explain why I'd switched jobs so rapidly. It's just a big red flag, even if you're someone that has shown they'll come and do the work all the rest of your career.
> I contribute a lot...
This contradicts you working no more than two months. _You_ might feel like you contribute a lot but I would suggest that if you stuck out a job for a year and then considered what you'd got done in that year what you see as "a lot" now won't seem like much.
> and then quit after I feel like I'm not getting appropriate compensation.
Tell you what, in my heart of hearts I feel like everyone ought to make a living wage no matter how unstable of an employee they are and no matter how inflated their sense of their work is. But, in the US that's not the system we have. Your compensation is some function of the employer's sense of your worth derived from your past work history, what you negotiate for and a discounting based on your perceived risk to the employer. Someone that will not work for more than two months is a _very_ risky employee and will get a heavy discount on their compensation for the first year because of it, at least. You probably are getting appropriate compensation in this system of ours based on how unreliable you are.
It seems to me from what you've said here that you've dug yourself into a very deep hole. I don't know why you have done this, friend, but you have. If you're near homeless suggestions to do Bootcamps or finish schooling -- while _extremely_ valid, you should eventually do one of these things -- are probably too late in the game for you. I second recommendations to reach out to headhunters and land yourself any kind of gig and then stick with _whatever_ you get. Pay's going to be shit because you're a risky hire. Don't prove to be a risky hire. Keep doing good work, consistently. After a year, ask for a raise. See about finishing your schooling but DO NOT QUIT YOUR JOB. After a _few years_ start interviewing for another gig without quitting your job first. People are going to ask you about your resume of 2-month stints and you'll have to explain it as a thing you've grown out of, because if you get to this point you will have done.
Godspeed. My email's in my profile if any of this has struck a chord and you'd like to talk or what not.
Hey, just wanted to say that the tone of your comment is great. Supportive, but honest, and even though I'm very far from a US southerner (midwestern asian american), somehow very culturally relatable. I hope it strikes a chord with the OP as it did with me.
I appreciate that danans, thank you.
In addition to the other feedback, don't leave a job without another job lined up. Later in your career, once you're confident in your ability to get a job quickly, it's fine. Until then, don't leave until you have something to go to.
20 percent of the programmers get 80 percent of the jobs. You don't have an Ivy League nor any degree at all. You don't have any experience working at a FAANG or a startup with name recognition. You have clearly have low self esteem, which is a red flag in interviews. There are enough people with none of these issues to fill every job in Silicon Valley.
You are losing the game you are trying to play, so try playing a different one. You could play the making enough to support yourself game. After you get good at that you can play the start your own business game, or the make websites for friends and locals game.
Your ego is getting in the way of you feeding yourself and putting a roof over your head. It's not worth it. I can't think off the top of my head anything that is.
There is no shame in not fitting into Silicon Valley. Consider moving on.
You are losing the game you are trying to play, so try playing a different one. You could play the making enough to support yourself game. After you get good at that you can play the start your own business game, or the make websites for friends and locals game.
Your ego is getting in the way of you feeding yourself and putting a roof over your head. It's not worth it. I can't think off the top of my head anything that is.
There is no shame in not fitting into Silicon Valley. Consider moving on.
Stop bothering with Fortune 500, and SV "sexy" companies. They get hundreds of applicants every day. There are thousands of small shops out there who always need WordPress monkies and "stick this snippet into a PHP page" type roles for $20-$30/hr. Find one and stick with it for 2-3 years. Practice your interviewing and build your LinkedIn network while doing that. There are no shortcuts, especially as a self taught dev.
Any feedback from the interviews? From the recruiters?
You need a good story to explain your leaving all those other positions - nobody cares that you didn’t like the pay or how hard it is to transfer internally, you need to tell the story of all the great knowledge and experience you gained at those positions, how your looking to build on that in your next position, and why your so excited for the position your interviewing for because it’s an opportunity to grow and do something new or continue working with technologies you love. Presentation is everything. Always remember that an interview isn’t a reading of your book of reckoning, it’s an opportunity for you to advertise your best aspects.
You don’t have to be homeless either - you can flip burgers at Sonic and make $15/hr these days. Nothing wrong with that. Take an evening shift so you can interview during the day.
You need a good story to explain your leaving all those other positions - nobody cares that you didn’t like the pay or how hard it is to transfer internally, you need to tell the story of all the great knowledge and experience you gained at those positions, how your looking to build on that in your next position, and why your so excited for the position your interviewing for because it’s an opportunity to grow and do something new or continue working with technologies you love. Presentation is everything. Always remember that an interview isn’t a reading of your book of reckoning, it’s an opportunity for you to advertise your best aspects.
You don’t have to be homeless either - you can flip burgers at Sonic and make $15/hr these days. Nothing wrong with that. Take an evening shift so you can interview during the day.
Google, Facebook, Dell, NSA, CIA, DoE (E=Energy), Airbnb, Palantir -- There are literally thousands of people applying for jobs to these companies and a really small percentage will be accepted. So it's not that you are unhireable, but you are applying to places where rejection is almost guaranteed. It's like betting on a number at a roulette table and wondering why you are losing money. The odds are against you.
Some ideas: 1) pick a smaller and boring software services company?
2) Travel abroad and find work there, where the health insurance is not such a big of an issue.
3) Try to make it as a freelancer(you can start at upwork and work your way up from there, start a consulting company etc)
4) Apply for a remote only positions
P.S If you can afford it(probably not), get an appointment to a psychiatrist or a therapist, they can usually spot the problems you might be missing yourself.
Some ideas: 1) pick a smaller and boring software services company?
2) Travel abroad and find work there, where the health insurance is not such a big of an issue.
3) Try to make it as a freelancer(you can start at upwork and work your way up from there, start a consulting company etc)
4) Apply for a remote only positions
P.S If you can afford it(probably not), get an appointment to a psychiatrist or a therapist, they can usually spot the problems you might be missing yourself.
As others have noted you’re going to have to stick with things longer, and learn to accept your not the one in charge in most of your roles (especially in the US which has a fairly authoritarian workplace culture). Also you may want to look into the possibility of contracting through agencies.
Are you autistic? You sound like autistic people I know who have similar troubles. It’s helpful to find out if you are and learn about how this affects you earlier in your career rather than later. It can really change how you approach situations at work and with interpersonal relationships so you can stick with things longer. In addition you might find there are autistic hiring programs that can help. (It’s not something you need to advertise but it’s something that’s helpful for you to know about yourself.)
Are you autistic? You sound like autistic people I know who have similar troubles. It’s helpful to find out if you are and learn about how this affects you earlier in your career rather than later. It can really change how you approach situations at work and with interpersonal relationships so you can stick with things longer. In addition you might find there are autistic hiring programs that can help. (It’s not something you need to advertise but it’s something that’s helpful for you to know about yourself.)
Was this post written by a machine as some weird test to see how the community would react? This seems like a mechanically contrived lack of self awareness that just seems too ridiculous to be real. This is not a sarcastic post.
[deleted]
Right? After seeing the GPT-3 examples, it's hard to not get triggered by incoherent sentences.
Sorry if that's the wrong assumption in this case.
Sorry if that's the wrong assumption in this case.
Most companies don't want trouble and don't want low level employees to give advice how to improve something. By doing this, you make the people above you look bad and they don't want that even if what you say is correct and helpful.
Basically if you find a new job, do only what is required from you, don't poke around, don't try to find vulnerabilities, don't spy on co-workers, don't report anyone (unless they are breaking the law and put someone else in danger).
Maybe you believe in those stories from a janitor to an executive after some magic moment, but in the real life this doesn't happen. There are no shortcuts. You should consider that you may also be on the spectrum and you simply got wrong how social interactions work - if you cannot afford a therapist, you could look around for books on the topic. Unfortunately can't think of any now, apart from maybe "Look me in the eye" by John Elder Robison
Then the ultimate way to get a job when you are unemployable is to start a company. I know this sounds stupid when you are on the brink of being homeless, but you could consider getting just any job and start a project in your spare time. If you come up with something that excites you and make it work, you'll also have a good resume material that could help with getting a job or an investor.
Maybe you believe in those stories from a janitor to an executive after some magic moment, but in the real life this doesn't happen. There are no shortcuts. You should consider that you may also be on the spectrum and you simply got wrong how social interactions work - if you cannot afford a therapist, you could look around for books on the topic. Unfortunately can't think of any now, apart from maybe "Look me in the eye" by John Elder Robison
Then the ultimate way to get a job when you are unemployable is to start a company. I know this sounds stupid when you are on the brink of being homeless, but you could consider getting just any job and start a project in your spare time. If you come up with something that excites you and make it work, you'll also have a good resume material that could help with getting a job or an investor.
For junior developers, I tend to recommend looking for marketing agency / consultancy work. With any luck, you'll get to be on projects that last between a few month to a year or two at most making small sites or adding features to existing sites.
This is great as it exposes you to a ton of different technologies and problem spaces (graphics heavy, data heavy, b2b, b2c etc). Each new project is a clean slate without the mistakes you previously made, or a chance to see how other people have put things together (and possibly learn from their mistakes).
The problem with these jobs is that sticking with them long term isn't for everyone; deadlines are often out of your control, as is the budget, because you're effectively working for a third party. They also tend to not pay big bucks, but they should still do better than most of what you seem to have had so far.
Once you get to a point where you feel confident leading teams of people, start looking at working for companies that make their own product- anything from FAANGs to small startups with good funding and existing customers (or whatever tells you that they are stable enough for you to be comfortable).
You don't have to follow this path of course, but it is a relatively safe one.
Also, if you aren't close to a decently sized city with any agencies or contractors, it couldn't hurt to go on LinkedIn and make sure that you have your programming experience- professional and hobby- listed. Also, be sure to log in at least every few days; logging in seems to give you a bump in search results. For me, LinkedIn is basically a place for recruiters to cold contact people, which may be helpful.
Final note: if you do get contacted by a recruiter about a position, see if they are working for the company they are advertising or not. If they are not, then they are likely getting a commission from placing you- and if they are any good, they can help coach you (and might be willing to do a practice interview if you ask very nicely). I will admit i haven't tried that last bit, but the two jobs I got through recruiters they were both genuinely good people who wanted to help however they could.
This is great as it exposes you to a ton of different technologies and problem spaces (graphics heavy, data heavy, b2b, b2c etc). Each new project is a clean slate without the mistakes you previously made, or a chance to see how other people have put things together (and possibly learn from their mistakes).
The problem with these jobs is that sticking with them long term isn't for everyone; deadlines are often out of your control, as is the budget, because you're effectively working for a third party. They also tend to not pay big bucks, but they should still do better than most of what you seem to have had so far.
Once you get to a point where you feel confident leading teams of people, start looking at working for companies that make their own product- anything from FAANGs to small startups with good funding and existing customers (or whatever tells you that they are stable enough for you to be comfortable).
You don't have to follow this path of course, but it is a relatively safe one.
Also, if you aren't close to a decently sized city with any agencies or contractors, it couldn't hurt to go on LinkedIn and make sure that you have your programming experience- professional and hobby- listed. Also, be sure to log in at least every few days; logging in seems to give you a bump in search results. For me, LinkedIn is basically a place for recruiters to cold contact people, which may be helpful.
Final note: if you do get contacted by a recruiter about a position, see if they are working for the company they are advertising or not. If they are not, then they are likely getting a commission from placing you- and if they are any good, they can help coach you (and might be willing to do a practice interview if you ask very nicely). I will admit i haven't tried that last bit, but the two jobs I got through recruiters they were both genuinely good people who wanted to help however they could.
Just based on original statement, you sound like one of those guys who thinks he's some hotshot hacker and won't play nice with everyone else. When you're like that, you have to bring lots of value. Downside protection like "I stopped us from having broken anti-fraud" is really kind of not that interesting as a story. People want upside story.
At any point of time, almost every company is teetering on some massive exploit. That's just how it is. Finding one isn't this big thing if the risk is mitigated in some other way (maximum exploit size is $10k and we'll wake up the OC eng to turn off writes and rollback). I'm not interested in this binary failure-is-worst-case nonsense.
Listen, people aren't that interested in knowing that they can be fooled because most people apply some default amount of trust to the world. "Spoofed number to bypass contact whitelist". Dude, come on. This is boring stuff. Just knocking on the door isn't enough to be interesting. This isn't a Hollywood hacker movie.
My advice: Work on being productive. No one cares about all this 'exploit hacker' shit you've got going on. It's not interesting. It's not profitable. It's boring. So go finish your degree somewhere. Write some code. Find someone who you can write some code for. For free even. Move up from there.
EDIT: Jesus Christ, reading other comments, want to be promoted for finding some random issues like this in the first two weeks? Yeah, no. Here's a hint: everyone sees these things. It's not some great secret. Other people are also able to do one more thing: multiply by probability of external exploit and amount of loss.
At any point of time, almost every company is teetering on some massive exploit. That's just how it is. Finding one isn't this big thing if the risk is mitigated in some other way (maximum exploit size is $10k and we'll wake up the OC eng to turn off writes and rollback). I'm not interested in this binary failure-is-worst-case nonsense.
Listen, people aren't that interested in knowing that they can be fooled because most people apply some default amount of trust to the world. "Spoofed number to bypass contact whitelist". Dude, come on. This is boring stuff. Just knocking on the door isn't enough to be interesting. This isn't a Hollywood hacker movie.
My advice: Work on being productive. No one cares about all this 'exploit hacker' shit you've got going on. It's not interesting. It's not profitable. It's boring. So go finish your degree somewhere. Write some code. Find someone who you can write some code for. For free even. Move up from there.
EDIT: Jesus Christ, reading other comments, want to be promoted for finding some random issues like this in the first two weeks? Yeah, no. Here's a hint: everyone sees these things. It's not some great secret. Other people are also able to do one more thing: multiply by probability of external exploit and amount of loss.
There's not really a lot of detail to target advice to. You don't even share what roles you're applying for at the companies you list.
From the sounds of things you don't sound unhireable as you've had several jobs. You just quit them for perhaps bad reasons? Even in a situation where I have a good social safety net I wouldn't quit a job I needed unless I had something else lined up.
> I need a job with decent health/dental insurance. Medicaid is useless. I might be homeless soon.
Pragmatically you need to deal with these material needs first. It's going to be exponentially harder to reach for the jobs you think you deserve if you aren't able to take care of your physical needs properly. I really sympathize here though, the healthcare system is the US is a joke.
Practically I think you need to make a couple of plans:
1) Short-term: How to stabilize your own life so you meet your living needs. You as you say you need a steady job and some level of health coverage. Go through the usual things of making sure your applications match the roles and so on.
2) Long-term: You sound like you want an entry level software engineering or cyber-security role in a high status company. You need to put down a realistic assessment of where you are and a realistic plan of how to get there. This probably requires swallowing a bit of pride and admitting to your current faults.
Ideally for both bits try and find someone you trust and will listen to who you can give you advice based on an unvarnished account of where you are at now. Reading between the lines it sounds like you need a bit of a reality check but that's obviously hard to do without knowing more about you.
From the sounds of things you don't sound unhireable as you've had several jobs. You just quit them for perhaps bad reasons? Even in a situation where I have a good social safety net I wouldn't quit a job I needed unless I had something else lined up.
> I need a job with decent health/dental insurance. Medicaid is useless. I might be homeless soon.
Pragmatically you need to deal with these material needs first. It's going to be exponentially harder to reach for the jobs you think you deserve if you aren't able to take care of your physical needs properly. I really sympathize here though, the healthcare system is the US is a joke.
Practically I think you need to make a couple of plans:
1) Short-term: How to stabilize your own life so you meet your living needs. You as you say you need a steady job and some level of health coverage. Go through the usual things of making sure your applications match the roles and so on.
2) Long-term: You sound like you want an entry level software engineering or cyber-security role in a high status company. You need to put down a realistic assessment of where you are and a realistic plan of how to get there. This probably requires swallowing a bit of pride and admitting to your current faults.
Ideally for both bits try and find someone you trust and will listen to who you can give you advice based on an unvarnished account of where you are at now. Reading between the lines it sounds like you need a bit of a reality check but that's obviously hard to do without knowing more about you.
I feel similar. I have a CS degree and what I would consider a wide range of experience. I've created social media sites, a encrypted file sharing site, a site for watching videos and chatting at the same time, a site for cooperatively solving a rubiks cube at the same time. I have developed a large number of video game mods including full game modes. I have developed both custom server software and modded server software for games along with backend systems to track players and integrating that data with a website. I have experience administrating linux servers. I have experience writing desktop applications with Qt. I have experience writing scripts to automate things. I have experience. I have a little experience writing code for embedded hardware. I have a little experience in writing velilog for CPLDs and FPGAs. I have a little experience designing PCBs.
I feel like I have plenty of knowledge that I can provide to a company, but I never hear back from anyone beyond a rejection letter template.
I'm probably just going to be a NEET until I come up with a good idea that I can monetize.
I feel like I have plenty of knowledge that I can provide to a company, but I never hear back from anyone beyond a rejection letter template.
I'm probably just going to be a NEET until I come up with a good idea that I can monetize.
Have you tried agency work? There are places where they just need hands on keyboards doing web front end for example, and the barrier to entry is not so high. Might not be glamorous, and can be a grind, but it's a decent entry point into the industry.
Open source might be another good avenue. I've hired for 8 technical roles over the past year, and one of the "requirements" we would have for going forward to the interview stage, would be that the candidate has 1) worked on software that people actually use, and 2) has done it in a team/collaborative setting. It sounds like you have done a lot of interesting projects, but doing something that just has to work for yourself has a very different set of constraints than building something in a team for someone else.
Since you've done linux admin, DevOps might be another good route. Getting AWS/GCP certification is not that difficult, and would add to your profile a bit of confidence that you have some experience and knowledge about industry standards.
It sounds like you've done a lot of interesting, creative projects, and there's one role we hired last year honestly you would have been a good candidate for as a lab support engineer. But the thing you have to understand is that hiring managers generally are not looking for "interesting" candidates. In a perfect world we would, but in a hiring process, you may be bombarded by dozens or hundreds of CVs, and you have to filter that down to a hand-full of candidates who you are going to interview. So the first round of filtering is just to weed out anyone who is potentially high risk of not working out. If you have to teach someone how to work in a professional environment for the first time, that carries risk, so at least you want to see some markers that this person understands how professional software development works and will fit into this environment.
Or, you can make friends with people in the industry, and get a referral.
Or, you can work on something interesting enough to get some widespread attention, and then hiring managers will call you.
Open source might be another good avenue. I've hired for 8 technical roles over the past year, and one of the "requirements" we would have for going forward to the interview stage, would be that the candidate has 1) worked on software that people actually use, and 2) has done it in a team/collaborative setting. It sounds like you have done a lot of interesting projects, but doing something that just has to work for yourself has a very different set of constraints than building something in a team for someone else.
Since you've done linux admin, DevOps might be another good route. Getting AWS/GCP certification is not that difficult, and would add to your profile a bit of confidence that you have some experience and knowledge about industry standards.
It sounds like you've done a lot of interesting, creative projects, and there's one role we hired last year honestly you would have been a good candidate for as a lab support engineer. But the thing you have to understand is that hiring managers generally are not looking for "interesting" candidates. In a perfect world we would, but in a hiring process, you may be bombarded by dozens or hundreds of CVs, and you have to filter that down to a hand-full of candidates who you are going to interview. So the first round of filtering is just to weed out anyone who is potentially high risk of not working out. If you have to teach someone how to work in a professional environment for the first time, that carries risk, so at least you want to see some markers that this person understands how professional software development works and will fit into this environment.
Or, you can make friends with people in the industry, and get a referral.
Or, you can work on something interesting enough to get some widespread attention, and then hiring managers will call you.
>Have you tried agency work?
No I haven't.
>It sounds like you have done a lot of interesting projects, but doing something that just has to work for yourself has a very different set of constraints than building something in a team for someone else.
I have satisfied those two points, but I left out information as to avoid doxxing this account. Unfortunately that work is kind of a dead end. My post was mainly just sharing some frustration that I faced with trying to get a real software engineering job when I have a degree, I have plenty of experience in designing and building systems, and have experience with Agile working on a small development team. I thought it was going to be easier as other students who I was also graduating with were making it father into the interview process.
No I haven't.
>It sounds like you have done a lot of interesting projects, but doing something that just has to work for yourself has a very different set of constraints than building something in a team for someone else.
I have satisfied those two points, but I left out information as to avoid doxxing this account. Unfortunately that work is kind of a dead end. My post was mainly just sharing some frustration that I faced with trying to get a real software engineering job when I have a degree, I have plenty of experience in designing and building systems, and have experience with Agile working on a small development team. I thought it was going to be easier as other students who I was also graduating with were making it father into the interview process.
You seem bright. I'd guess that you're failing on the social sides of the interview process. If you submit cover letters like this, you may be highlighting too many things that aren't applicable to the job so companies will reject you because they don't know where to place you.
Which part of the job hunting process are you failing at the most? Is it the initial application? Phone screen? Onsite interview? What types of jobs are you targetting?
Feel free to email me (in profile) if you want to go into detail more.
Which part of the job hunting process are you failing at the most? Is it the initial application? Phone screen? Onsite interview? What types of jobs are you targetting?
Feel free to email me (in profile) if you want to go into detail more.
>Which part of the job hunting process are you failing at the most?
I would say I am failing at finding interesting positions and at writing a resume / cover letters. For cover letters I don't highlight that many things. My resume only includes two projects I've made depending on the company I applied to. I've never had the opportunity to participate in a phone screen or at a site interview. I have done a technical interview for a position before, but that was more of a formality that something made to filter me.
>What types of jobs are you targetting?
I believe my skill set would most likely end up with me building parts of websites backends. Really I would like to work together on a team that is motivated to build whatever system and being able to communicate with them and bounce ideas off of them.
I'll take you up on the offer of emailing you. BTW my gmail username is different than my username here.
I would say I am failing at finding interesting positions and at writing a resume / cover letters. For cover letters I don't highlight that many things. My resume only includes two projects I've made depending on the company I applied to. I've never had the opportunity to participate in a phone screen or at a site interview. I have done a technical interview for a position before, but that was more of a formality that something made to filter me.
>What types of jobs are you targetting?
I believe my skill set would most likely end up with me building parts of websites backends. Really I would like to work together on a team that is motivated to build whatever system and being able to communicate with them and bounce ideas off of them.
I'll take you up on the offer of emailing you. BTW my gmail username is different than my username here.
I think you fail to understand corporate culture. Going around bosses because you found a vuln is not conducive to the corporate environment. they frown on stuff like that. Id suggest you learn to play by the rules or start your own thing. The thing with corporate culture is that it isn't hacker culture. I think you fail to realize that and it has been your undoing. Cheers bud.
Maybe check your criminal record. My wife was getting denied from every application. She later found out there was an incorrect conviction on her record and had to get it expunged.
Also, you seem to be listing big name tech companies and startups. Have you tried looking at non-tech companies? Sometimes the medium to small non-tech companies are more forgiving about not having a degree.
I'm not sure where you are located, but maybe look at jobs in other regions. Sometimes you can take a lower paying job in a cheaper region (with less competition) and do well.
Also, you seem to be listing big name tech companies and startups. Have you tried looking at non-tech companies? Sometimes the medium to small non-tech companies are more forgiving about not having a degree.
I'm not sure where you are located, but maybe look at jobs in other regions. Sometimes you can take a lower paying job in a cheaper region (with less competition) and do well.
I'm not sure how to check my criminal record. Last background check by Amazon was clear. I've never even got ticked for jay walking. I tried googling my name and nothing came up. Pretty sure I have to pay for a company like ADP to do a background check on me. I think background checks usually happend post offer.
I've tried applying to some smaller companies who might be willing to take a risk on me. Haven't had any better luck with those. I live in the south, there aren't a lot of tech companies local to me. Just oil/gas companies.
I've tried applying to some smaller companies who might be willing to take a risk on me. Haven't had any better luck with those. I live in the south, there aren't a lot of tech companies local to me. Just oil/gas companies.
From your post, it sounds like you should speak to a doctor as you're suffering and you might have a mental health issue.
Sounds like you have anxiety tbh.
Sounds like you have anxiety tbh.
QA at EA is a path to some solid gigs. It just takes time.
Yeah, it's unsexy work, but it pays okay, and if you prove yourself, it can lead to some senior roles. There are lots of folks that I work with now that started in contract QA and worked their way up to 6+ figure gigs inside the company.
Yeah, it's unsexy work, but it pays okay, and if you prove yourself, it can lead to some senior roles. There are lots of folks that I work with now that started in contract QA and worked their way up to 6+ figure gigs inside the company.
It is hard to figure out what the problem may be, without knowing you, so I won't try (feel free to PM if you want to do something like a mock interview).
One thing that may suck, but want to make you aware is that chances are you need to do things worse temporarily, before they become better. You may need to put extra effort now (go to community college etc), for reward later.
One program I'd suggest you explore is AWS Re/Start, https://aws.amazon.com/training/restart/ ... it may be right for you (Amazon also has a similar internal program).
One thing that may suck, but want to make you aware is that chances are you need to do things worse temporarily, before they become better. You may need to put extra effort now (go to community college etc), for reward later.
One program I'd suggest you explore is AWS Re/Start, https://aws.amazon.com/training/restart/ ... it may be right for you (Amazon also has a similar internal program).
> feel free to PM if you want to do something like a mock interview
This is a very generous offer, OP.
This is a very generous offer, OP.
How can I get in contact with you?
Email me at the email address in my profile, I'll mock interview you as well.
I play a key role in our hiring process. Shoot me an email, your resume (in word format so I can comment if necessary) and some times that work next week for 30-45 min chat (after 4pm ET best for me). Think of it as professional networking call and at the end I’ll be as candid and constructive as I can. Email is in my profile.
If, for some reason, you don't have Word, just write it in text format, and use ".doc" as the extension. Whoever opens it will automatically have it magically transformed into commentable Word format. Word readers are available.
I actually sent my resume in .txt to a job. HR called me and asked me to resubmit it in Word. So I changed the extension to .doc, emailed it over.
I was hired.
(But really, with the problems you're having, use Word. This was just a funny but true anecdote.)
I actually sent my resume in .txt to a job. HR called me and asked me to resubmit it in Word. So I changed the extension to .doc, emailed it over.
I was hired.
(But really, with the problems you're having, use Word. This was just a funny but true anecdote.)
Going to be an unpopular opinion:
Look into how you look visually and how you speak and your behaviour. Are there things you do that [incorrectly] raise a flag for other people? Like someone mentioned on here, get detailed feedback.
Look into how you look visually and how you speak and your behaviour. Are there things you do that [incorrectly] raise a flag for other people? Like someone mentioned on here, get detailed feedback.
I’m an almost 50 year-old English major with a spotty career history, including about 20 years of various forms ‘self-employment’.
Getting a good job can be really, really hard. My current gig at a not-quite-but-almost FAANG took me six months to land. But it’s also entirely possible.
If, like me, you’re not automatically hireable based on your accomplishments, I suggest you approach everything up to the interview as an exercise in marketing. Then treat the interview process as an exercise in sales.
Then all you have to do is get lucky and be prepared to learn as much as you need to to perform in your role.
Getting a good job can be really, really hard. My current gig at a not-quite-but-almost FAANG took me six months to land. But it’s also entirely possible.
If, like me, you’re not automatically hireable based on your accomplishments, I suggest you approach everything up to the interview as an exercise in marketing. Then treat the interview process as an exercise in sales.
Then all you have to do is get lucky and be prepared to learn as much as you need to to perform in your role.
Took a glance around the thread. In summary, it sounds like you are still fairly young (in the good sense), have an analytical mind but haven't sticked with anything for longer than 2 months. You said you're worried about your immediate financial future.
In terms of first impressions: a lot of consecutive 2 months stints will look very bad on your resume - a lot of places have 3 months probational period. I don't know what the story is, but this could an issue of tact (i.e. navigating office politics, not antagonizing your boss, that sort of stuff), it could be an issue of confidence (either too much impostor syndrome, or being overconfident and over-entitled), it could be that you're not cut out for the field (black-and-white quitting over disagreements is generally the worst solution to problems compared to compromising, strategic teamwork or just flat out sucking it up). You're gonna need to do some introspection, and you need to prioritize figuring out how you can hold a single job for 3 years. Also, with a job history full of red flags, name dropping famous companies will probably do the opposite of what you want. Consider focusing on selling skillset etc and downplaying (or even omitting) work history.
Be realistic and specific about your actual skillset vs your target role (either you are proficient in ios/js/golang/whatever or you're not, don't "fish" around for "any role")
In terms of target companies: you mentioned FAANG class companies. A lot of these companies tend to look for senior level as a baseline. Consider applying to less competitive jobs (i.e. companies without brand recognition). One way to go about this is to reach out to recruitment agencies.
In terms of balancing target goals and immediate needs: prioritize according to Maslow[0], i.e. it'll do no good trying out your luck trying to find a prestigious 150k+ salary job who knows when if it means your cash flow will make you homeless in 2 months with high probability. Better to swallow your pride and go for something less ideal at least until you can stabilize your financial situation.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
In terms of first impressions: a lot of consecutive 2 months stints will look very bad on your resume - a lot of places have 3 months probational period. I don't know what the story is, but this could an issue of tact (i.e. navigating office politics, not antagonizing your boss, that sort of stuff), it could be an issue of confidence (either too much impostor syndrome, or being overconfident and over-entitled), it could be that you're not cut out for the field (black-and-white quitting over disagreements is generally the worst solution to problems compared to compromising, strategic teamwork or just flat out sucking it up). You're gonna need to do some introspection, and you need to prioritize figuring out how you can hold a single job for 3 years. Also, with a job history full of red flags, name dropping famous companies will probably do the opposite of what you want. Consider focusing on selling skillset etc and downplaying (or even omitting) work history.
Be realistic and specific about your actual skillset vs your target role (either you are proficient in ios/js/golang/whatever or you're not, don't "fish" around for "any role")
In terms of target companies: you mentioned FAANG class companies. A lot of these companies tend to look for senior level as a baseline. Consider applying to less competitive jobs (i.e. companies without brand recognition). One way to go about this is to reach out to recruitment agencies.
In terms of balancing target goals and immediate needs: prioritize according to Maslow[0], i.e. it'll do no good trying out your luck trying to find a prestigious 150k+ salary job who knows when if it means your cash flow will make you homeless in 2 months with high probability. Better to swallow your pride and go for something less ideal at least until you can stabilize your financial situation.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
A quick anecdote: interviewers HATE when you criticise previous employers. You complain at length about previous employers in your post, instead of talking about what you learned/experience gained. Ensure in interviews that everything you talk about is positive outcomes, NOTHING negative.
(1) Stop applying to the "popular" companies.
(2) Stop quitting something every time it becomes hard.
(3) Stop thinking you've paid your dues and deserve more already.
So take a deep breath, reset your expectations some, and humbly jump in at a less glamorous company and stay there for a couple of years. Long term you can still live the dream or whatever, but it sounds like you're trying to skip over some really important learning/experience stages (a good tech career involves far more than some tech expertise).
So take a deep breath, reset your expectations some, and humbly jump in at a less glamorous company and stay there for a couple of years. Long term you can still live the dream or whatever, but it sounds like you're trying to skip over some really important learning/experience stages (a good tech career involves far more than some tech expertise).
I hope I'm not out of place in presuming to advise someone else, but you asked for "brutally candid", and it's late, so... :)
Is it fair to say that you're coming from what seems like an unusual background, and you have some demonstrated skills, and energy to learn more, but you're trying to figure out how you fit into current corporate America?
If so, I don't know whether the following simple exercise will help, but if you'd like to try for a moment... Imagine that you and a great hiring manager found each other. The manager saw potential in you, mentored you, looked out for you, was available for questions, gave you constructive guidance, and wanted you to succeed.
How do you feel about that situation? Would you trust trust the manager, and want to live up to the manager's belief and investment in you? Do you think you'd do whatever it takes to make that working relationship a great success?
If that's an inspiring dream situation for you, then I'd like to ask you to consider another scenario... Imagine that you're approaching prospective employers (maybe not the biggest, household-name ones). In that scenario, are you willing to invest like you would for our supernatural saint manager from the previous scenario (even if the reality is more human), look for the best in that relationship, and live up to your ideals, to make it a success?
I'd also like to ask a few rhetorical questions related to that... Have you been in a hacking (either meaning of the term) social environment/culture, in which cleverness and skills were valued? And where things like using a phone number allowlist to get through to a higher-up would be celebrated? Can you imagine different ways that different people might feel about you gaming their phone access controls, or going over their chain-of-command head with something? What if you were in an environment in which there were additional priorities, other than being smart and right? Would you be interested in understanding and pursuing those priorities?
Incidentally, separate from the above, it sounds like you're going through a stressful time. You're not alone, and most people go through difficult times, of various kinds. It sucks when you're in it, but it gets better, and you can help move it along towards better. One important thing to remember is that there's a huge thing of counselors (lots of people at all those organizations you mentioned have counselors). A counselor can make a big difference for the individual getting through rough situations, and also growing. I'd guess that Medicaid would cover something in that regard. You'd have to take the initiative -- ask a doctor for a referral, find an administrator who'll help you navigate the unfortunate financial side of things, ask for help with any confusing paperwork, etc.
I'm sorry I'm not in a position to hire right now, but my gut feel is that you can do great. A lot of people don't know/remember that they can ask for help, but you asking HN is a good step. And remember that you can also ask around in all kinds of other areas, until you find someone who's in a position to help, and work with them. In addition to the things you can figure out to do on your own.
Is it fair to say that you're coming from what seems like an unusual background, and you have some demonstrated skills, and energy to learn more, but you're trying to figure out how you fit into current corporate America?
If so, I don't know whether the following simple exercise will help, but if you'd like to try for a moment... Imagine that you and a great hiring manager found each other. The manager saw potential in you, mentored you, looked out for you, was available for questions, gave you constructive guidance, and wanted you to succeed.
How do you feel about that situation? Would you trust trust the manager, and want to live up to the manager's belief and investment in you? Do you think you'd do whatever it takes to make that working relationship a great success?
If that's an inspiring dream situation for you, then I'd like to ask you to consider another scenario... Imagine that you're approaching prospective employers (maybe not the biggest, household-name ones). In that scenario, are you willing to invest like you would for our supernatural saint manager from the previous scenario (even if the reality is more human), look for the best in that relationship, and live up to your ideals, to make it a success?
I'd also like to ask a few rhetorical questions related to that... Have you been in a hacking (either meaning of the term) social environment/culture, in which cleverness and skills were valued? And where things like using a phone number allowlist to get through to a higher-up would be celebrated? Can you imagine different ways that different people might feel about you gaming their phone access controls, or going over their chain-of-command head with something? What if you were in an environment in which there were additional priorities, other than being smart and right? Would you be interested in understanding and pursuing those priorities?
Incidentally, separate from the above, it sounds like you're going through a stressful time. You're not alone, and most people go through difficult times, of various kinds. It sucks when you're in it, but it gets better, and you can help move it along towards better. One important thing to remember is that there's a huge thing of counselors (lots of people at all those organizations you mentioned have counselors). A counselor can make a big difference for the individual getting through rough situations, and also growing. I'd guess that Medicaid would cover something in that regard. You'd have to take the initiative -- ask a doctor for a referral, find an administrator who'll help you navigate the unfortunate financial side of things, ask for help with any confusing paperwork, etc.
I'm sorry I'm not in a position to hire right now, but my gut feel is that you can do great. A lot of people don't know/remember that they can ask for help, but you asking HN is a good step. And remember that you can also ask around in all kinds of other areas, until you find someone who's in a position to help, and work with them. In addition to the things you can figure out to do on your own.
Get a legal job that pays you at least minimum wage.
That should be your #1 priority. Absolutely anything. Just apply to everything until you get something. Once you have income that you control, then start applying for computer industry jobs.
Avoid homelessness at all costs, that’s a really big hole to get out of.
That should be your #1 priority. Absolutely anything. Just apply to everything until you get something. Once you have income that you control, then start applying for computer industry jobs.
Avoid homelessness at all costs, that’s a really big hole to get out of.
Having a door that I can lock at night has always been my number one priority. I have done almost anything in the past, when necessary, to have that. Without it, that really is a big hole.
Doing a job that doesn't satisfy your pride or goals or expectations is much, much better than homelessness.
Doing a job that doesn't satisfy your pride or goals or expectations is much, much better than homelessness.
Here's my experience - it sounds similar to yours, but with a couple of key differences that might be useful.
When I was in college, I really REALLY wanted to be am Electrical Engineer. I applied to loads of jobs - found a list of 75 positions I applied to from 2 different career fairs (plus random others). I got 1 job offer and I was SO RESENTFUL.
Naturally, I took the job - but I kept applying. I found emails from 100-200 jobs I applied to (no interviews). I found an email to a startup - I got an interview! - but no offer.
I kept at my job. I built a reputation. I got ranked good. And bad. I networked and made friends. I got recruited by a former boss to move to a different part of the company.
I EXPANDED my network. I went to conferences and told people what I was doing - and I helped them do it, too (for free/fun).
I'm at a point now where I can move teams and people REMEMBER me. I have former co workers who want me on their team. I've worked up - slowly- and I never got the job I dreamed of in college, but I do have a good job that I love and it pays the bills.
Summary: 1) Be good at what you do 2) Make friends with the people around you: peers and boss 3) Make friends with THEIR friends 4) Help them be good at the things you are good at 5) Be good at more things 6) Make more friends 7) Repeat
Also, probably something about patience, hard work, being grateful with the life you have... idk, I'm not the Dali Lama ;)
When I was in college, I really REALLY wanted to be am Electrical Engineer. I applied to loads of jobs - found a list of 75 positions I applied to from 2 different career fairs (plus random others). I got 1 job offer and I was SO RESENTFUL.
Naturally, I took the job - but I kept applying. I found emails from 100-200 jobs I applied to (no interviews). I found an email to a startup - I got an interview! - but no offer.
I kept at my job. I built a reputation. I got ranked good. And bad. I networked and made friends. I got recruited by a former boss to move to a different part of the company.
I EXPANDED my network. I went to conferences and told people what I was doing - and I helped them do it, too (for free/fun).
I'm at a point now where I can move teams and people REMEMBER me. I have former co workers who want me on their team. I've worked up - slowly- and I never got the job I dreamed of in college, but I do have a good job that I love and it pays the bills.
Summary: 1) Be good at what you do 2) Make friends with the people around you: peers and boss 3) Make friends with THEIR friends 4) Help them be good at the things you are good at 5) Be good at more things 6) Make more friends 7) Repeat
Also, probably something about patience, hard work, being grateful with the life you have... idk, I'm not the Dali Lama ;)
If you're not currently working, I'd recommend a staffing agency, Uber Eats, Taskrabbit, Instacart, etc. There are ways to start making money right now that might keep you from being homeless. And being homeless is going to set you back.
Don't put any of the above on your resume.
What are you looking for? You haven't really elaborated on what your skills are except for alluding to a possible penchant for security research. If that's really what you want to do (and you think you have enough knowledge of networking technologies and security practices that it's really your best path forward), do that!
If you hunt for bug bounties, and blog about your findings (even if you don't hit any), that's going to be a really good way for potential employers to audit your capabilities.
If you're looking to get into software development, publish some work on github or get involved with an open source project. Even filing issues is a great way to showcase your ability to work within a team and contribute. QA is often a great stepping stone into the world of software engineering, and (depending on the type of QA), you really just need to be computer literate, dedicated, and capable of working with a team. Those are things you can demonstrate on github.
It's not going to be an easy path forward, but getting some income you can live off of right now, then pouring all of your energy into working in the open is going to be your best path to getting hired. You don't have the resume to get the kinds of jobs your looking for, and it sounds like you haven't even had the kinds of jobs that would look impressive to potential employers
Don't put any of the above on your resume.
What are you looking for? You haven't really elaborated on what your skills are except for alluding to a possible penchant for security research. If that's really what you want to do (and you think you have enough knowledge of networking technologies and security practices that it's really your best path forward), do that!
If you hunt for bug bounties, and blog about your findings (even if you don't hit any), that's going to be a really good way for potential employers to audit your capabilities.
If you're looking to get into software development, publish some work on github or get involved with an open source project. Even filing issues is a great way to showcase your ability to work within a team and contribute. QA is often a great stepping stone into the world of software engineering, and (depending on the type of QA), you really just need to be computer literate, dedicated, and capable of working with a team. Those are things you can demonstrate on github.
It's not going to be an easy path forward, but getting some income you can live off of right now, then pouring all of your energy into working in the open is going to be your best path to getting hired. You don't have the resume to get the kinds of jobs your looking for, and it sounds like you haven't even had the kinds of jobs that would look impressive to potential employers
I saw some people in Austin who did gig work like uber etc. I've thought about it. I'm a very anxious driver though. I've though about working in a Amazon warehouse. There's one near me. But they don't get health benefits for 3+ months. Have to do intense manual labor etc. EA QA was the most toxic place I ever worked at. Belittling people, thinking that all testers are incompetent etc. I have back pain, and dental issues which is why I mention insurance a lot.
> I've though about working in a Amazon warehouse. There's one near me. But they don't get health benefits for 3+ months. Have to do intense manual labor etc.
I think you need to focus on your priorities here. As I understand you're currently jobless and obviously have no health benefits, and are on the verge of becoming homeless. Doing three months of "intense manual labor" to get a paycheck and health benefits is (in my view at least) far preferable to being homeless and penniless.
My perception of your reply is that you think the Amazon warehouse job is beneath you; does homelessness appeal more? Seriously, at this stage, in the very short run, your number one priority should be to avert homelessness, and do whatever it takes. I know you mentioned back pain, but if the Amazon warehouse isn't your thing, there should be something else you can do to tide you over.
More broadly as lot of commenters have very kindly offered to talk to you and help you in various ways. That is an immense gift! Make use of it, and don't make them regret offering their assistance.
You're in a bad place mentally right now, but you're young, you're not stupid and you can get out of this, but you need to be willing to put in the effort. Asking the question here is a very good first step.
Lastly, you may also want to visit Ask A Manager [1] which has a lot of good advice on cover letters, resumes, interviewing, etc. It's not tech-specific, but most of the advice applies universally.
Good luck!
[1] https://www.askamanager.org/
I think you need to focus on your priorities here. As I understand you're currently jobless and obviously have no health benefits, and are on the verge of becoming homeless. Doing three months of "intense manual labor" to get a paycheck and health benefits is (in my view at least) far preferable to being homeless and penniless.
My perception of your reply is that you think the Amazon warehouse job is beneath you; does homelessness appeal more? Seriously, at this stage, in the very short run, your number one priority should be to avert homelessness, and do whatever it takes. I know you mentioned back pain, but if the Amazon warehouse isn't your thing, there should be something else you can do to tide you over.
More broadly as lot of commenters have very kindly offered to talk to you and help you in various ways. That is an immense gift! Make use of it, and don't make them regret offering their assistance.
You're in a bad place mentally right now, but you're young, you're not stupid and you can get out of this, but you need to be willing to put in the effort. Asking the question here is a very good first step.
Lastly, you may also want to visit Ask A Manager [1] which has a lot of good advice on cover letters, resumes, interviewing, etc. It's not tech-specific, but most of the advice applies universally.
Good luck!
[1] https://www.askamanager.org/
Also, forgot to mention, I was recently working "QA" for 5 years. Transitioned into that from full-stack webdev and am back in webdev again. QA in my case was actually very technical, required deep knowledge of web application deployment mechanisms, occasional debugging of web app code, a variety of languages, and writing tons of bash and CI configuration, some tests, and automating cloud things.
I won't lie and say it was as fun as traditional programming. But QA means a lot of different things, and just because you had a really bad experience with it (and I've heard terrible things about EA in general, not just their QA department), you should definitely be looking at QA for job opportunities that will meet your needs. Realistically you're going to be better suited to a lot of QA jobs right now, and employers are going to be more open to taking a chance on you given your history.
I won't lie and say it was as fun as traditional programming. But QA means a lot of different things, and just because you had a really bad experience with it (and I've heard terrible things about EA in general, not just their QA department), you should definitely be looking at QA for job opportunities that will meet your needs. Realistically you're going to be better suited to a lot of QA jobs right now, and employers are going to be more open to taking a chance on you given your history.
QA in video games is not an engineering role. It's usually a butts-in-seat role where you're expected to dilligently follow a task list without deviating in the slightest. You're expected to follow the checklist, on repeat. If you have initiative, save it for after work.
More senior qa roles will be designing test suites, maybe even developing them, but entry level game QA is not going to scratch a dev itch.
More senior qa roles will be designing test suites, maybe even developing them, but entry level game QA is not going to scratch a dev itch.
I was only elaborating on this because I suggested QA as an entry point to software engineering, and OP seemed to write it off because they had a bad experience in a QA role that was very different from what I was suggesting.
> But they don't get health benefits for 3+ months.
This isn’t true? https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/operations/healthcare-from-...
This isn’t true? https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/operations/healthcare-from-...
I don't know if this is possible in Austin, but Uber eats allows bicycle delivery (almost definitely available in Austin), and "on foot" delivery as well. Other delivery companies may have similar programs.
Instacart (in some locations) allows you to sign up just to do the shopping (then the drivers pick it up).
Taskrabbit will definitely have some things you can do without driving as well.
Just explore the options; something where you can set your own schedule would be really nice while you're job hunting and interviewing.
Instacart (in some locations) allows you to sign up just to do the shopping (then the drivers pick it up).
Taskrabbit will definitely have some things you can do without driving as well.
Just explore the options; something where you can set your own schedule would be really nice while you're job hunting and interviewing.
From my impression of this post, and your comments, you have a non-traditional upbringing, a nonconformist streak, and a problem committing to things. None of these are bad, but they aren't setting you up for success in a corporation that tries to de-risk it's hiring process, and find people who will fit the culture and make contributions for years. I think it's really important for you to understand that the world doesn't owe you anything, certainly not a pay raise after 2 months, and it's best to be humble. Being homeschooled gave you a huge leg up in developing dev skills and allowed you to get an IBM internship, but now the rest of your age group has essentially caught up.
However, there is still a massive demand for software engineers, and those with technical talent, you just need to find a way in to the industry given that you essentially "have no past", or serious work history. One option might be to do a FE bootcamp on an ISA. I would also suggest making open source contributions regularly: pick a language and toolchain and start contributing. Might I recommend Haskell or Lisp? (a personal fav) This is all the standard advice, and there is no reason it couldn't work for you if you give it enough time. Also, as a Knuth check holder, don't waste too much time reading Knuth when you aren't applying it to a specific problem, or doing academic research.
I work with some non-college degree devs, so It's definitely possible, but you need to be writing a ton of code, and pretty much be all about that. Longer term, I think your mindset/experience/history would be well suited to founding a company, but I'd strongly suggest, getting technical experience for a few years at a company first. Best of luck.
However, there is still a massive demand for software engineers, and those with technical talent, you just need to find a way in to the industry given that you essentially "have no past", or serious work history. One option might be to do a FE bootcamp on an ISA. I would also suggest making open source contributions regularly: pick a language and toolchain and start contributing. Might I recommend Haskell or Lisp? (a personal fav) This is all the standard advice, and there is no reason it couldn't work for you if you give it enough time. Also, as a Knuth check holder, don't waste too much time reading Knuth when you aren't applying it to a specific problem, or doing academic research.
I work with some non-college degree devs, so It's definitely possible, but you need to be writing a ton of code, and pretty much be all about that. Longer term, I think your mindset/experience/history would be well suited to founding a company, but I'd strongly suggest, getting technical experience for a few years at a company first. Best of luck.
Positively, you sound like a self starter and very good at figuring things out, including creative ways to break things. It does sound like there is a pattern to why your jobs have not been working out. One way to diagnose that would be to think about what it was like to manage you - how might have others seen you in a work setting? Pragmatically, I'd look for a recruiter who doesn't mind coaching a little, and in shopping for a recruiter, you may learn from your conversations with them.
I don't know about the "creep" feedback here, but it sounds like any experience learning how to be a good guy to work with would be helpful. I'd look at Joel Spolsky's writing as a guide to tech industry norms, or Laszlo Bock on trust in teams. Once you have the luxury of time, I would look for books or movies or shows that show problem solving teams in action, just to get some more insights from examples. Emphasis on "team". "Soul of a New Machine", by Tracy Kidder, wsa eye opening for me, though that's a picture of the industry from ~50 years ago. Ellen Ullman, too.
I don't know about the "creep" feedback here, but it sounds like any experience learning how to be a good guy to work with would be helpful. I'd look at Joel Spolsky's writing as a guide to tech industry norms, or Laszlo Bock on trust in teams. Once you have the luxury of time, I would look for books or movies or shows that show problem solving teams in action, just to get some more insights from examples. Emphasis on "team". "Soul of a New Machine", by Tracy Kidder, wsa eye opening for me, though that's a picture of the industry from ~50 years ago. Ellen Ullman, too.
A lot of advice here already, but personally I don't understand why you're applying at all these big-name companies like Google, Facebook, Dell, NSA, CIA, DoE (E=Energy), Airbnb, Palantir. I probably wouldn't get hired at most of them, and I'm fairly experienced, got a reasonably nice CV, and have reasonably okay interview and social skills.
There are many MANY small tech companies out there, ranging from 2-3 employees to maybe 100. At one of my jobs we worked from the owner's mother's garage; we had lunch with his mother every day. It's not shiny and glamorous like Google or Apple, but it's honest work and plenty interesting. I sure wasn't bored and had a great time there.
Just go on Stack Overflow jobs, or Monster, or whatever is in your local area, find software dev jobs that seem interesting and send in your CV with a decent cover letter. You probably never heard of that particular company and that's just fine.
Because quite frankly it looks like right now you're trying to star in a big-budget Hollywood movie when all you've got is one B-movie on your credits.
There are many MANY small tech companies out there, ranging from 2-3 employees to maybe 100. At one of my jobs we worked from the owner's mother's garage; we had lunch with his mother every day. It's not shiny and glamorous like Google or Apple, but it's honest work and plenty interesting. I sure wasn't bored and had a great time there.
Just go on Stack Overflow jobs, or Monster, or whatever is in your local area, find software dev jobs that seem interesting and send in your CV with a decent cover letter. You probably never heard of that particular company and that's just fine.
Because quite frankly it looks like right now you're trying to star in a big-budget Hollywood movie when all you've got is one B-movie on your credits.
Focus on what you have to offer to companies. Everything else is secondary.
- What's your role? (dev, QA)
- What's your speciality? (python, mobile, etc)
- Are you good at your role and speciality? How can you show so? (I completed this course, read this book, have this portfolio project)
Following supply/demand rules, you will be offered a job when you clearly offer a value proposition that is fits a given company's needs. It's as simple as that.
- What's your role? (dev, QA)
- What's your speciality? (python, mobile, etc)
- Are you good at your role and speciality? How can you show so? (I completed this course, read this book, have this portfolio project)
Following supply/demand rules, you will be offered a job when you clearly offer a value proposition that is fits a given company's needs. It's as simple as that.
I feel really sorry for you.
If you believe you have good skills, make absolutely sure necessary people know about it. Be very public. Tell about yourself, show examples of your work - in this case it would probably benefit to work on side projects and demonstrate progress; you'll open yourself to lots of criticism, but win in the Theodore Roosevelt (man on the arena) sense. Becoming this public may be uncomfortable, but it's a necessary ingredient; you won't realistically get to a "deal" with people if those people unaware about you.
Don't allow yourself to become homeless if possible. If you don't have close friends, ask for help from less close. Be prepared - and then proceed - to spend next weeks and months concentrated on the task; again, make sure everybody knows about it, what you're doing and your progress. I wouldn't mind periodically read here about it. You have a lot of work to do, but you're not alone in the situation like this; try to make a good example to others.
If you believe you have good skills, make absolutely sure necessary people know about it. Be very public. Tell about yourself, show examples of your work - in this case it would probably benefit to work on side projects and demonstrate progress; you'll open yourself to lots of criticism, but win in the Theodore Roosevelt (man on the arena) sense. Becoming this public may be uncomfortable, but it's a necessary ingredient; you won't realistically get to a "deal" with people if those people unaware about you.
Don't allow yourself to become homeless if possible. If you don't have close friends, ask for help from less close. Be prepared - and then proceed - to spend next weeks and months concentrated on the task; again, make sure everybody knows about it, what you're doing and your progress. I wouldn't mind periodically read here about it. You have a lot of work to do, but you're not alone in the situation like this; try to make a good example to others.
[deleted]
Would you like to try a mock interview over Zoom or something? I need one as well. We can give one another feedback. I'm unusual in my own way. I was successful early in my career (graduate of a top program, with Research Honors; and twice won awards, each with extra stock options, during 5 years at the fastest-growing Fortune 500 of the 90s) but burned out. Since then, my experience has been spotty, though I was a Lead Software Engineer once. I'm still trying to get back onto my horse. Anyway, I am now more interested in people and our quirks than in systems and code. The son of two social scientists, I viewed reading other people's code, and trying to decipher the intentions and guess the most-likely flaws, as "an exercise in abnormal psychology." I can give you my read on how I think you're likely to be perceived.
First, please read this, it's important: you are going to be OK. Even if you are homeless. You will be OK. Take things one at a time, and try not to worry about anything except your most immediate problem/task.
Second: choose a path. Do not go all over the place, from Facebook coding to Home Depot manual labor. Pick one path and focus your energies on that. Even with a good resume and interpersonal skills, it can take a while for a job to open up if you have no networking contacts.
Third: consider your approach, to your job search, your employement, life. You mention here that you've spoofed numbers to contact high-level executives, and sent them e-mails about problems you found in systems. Other people do not do these things. Don't do things that make you stick out, buck the system, or bring attention to yourself. Focus on only fulfilling the requirements of your job. Use normal means of contact. Present yourself as a normal person with basic skills and competency in working with people. Be reliable.
Fourth: you've been looking for a year; this is not uncommon. Do you have friends or family to ask for help? Ask them. If you don't, you'll need to reach out to resources in your city for people who don't have a job or are homeless. You may need to look into daily/weekly/monthly housing if you can't afford an apartment. Look into job training programs, unemployment, shelters, private outreach programs. Keep applying to minimum wage jobs. Contact temp agencies, staffing agencies, recruiting agencies.
Fifth: If you really feel like Bill Landreth, keep reaching out for help. This is a good start. Look into local social services. Call SAMHSA (https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline). Contact a local PATH provider (https://pathpdx.samhsa.gov/public?tab=stateandprovidercontac...). Contact a local ESMI provider (https://www.samhsa.gov/esmi-treatment-locator). Tell them that you have concerns about your mental health but that you are soon to be homeless and need help. Find someone who can help you work through how to deal with this scenario while also working on the path you chose above.
Good luck to you man. Keep at it, you will be OK.
Second: choose a path. Do not go all over the place, from Facebook coding to Home Depot manual labor. Pick one path and focus your energies on that. Even with a good resume and interpersonal skills, it can take a while for a job to open up if you have no networking contacts.
Third: consider your approach, to your job search, your employement, life. You mention here that you've spoofed numbers to contact high-level executives, and sent them e-mails about problems you found in systems. Other people do not do these things. Don't do things that make you stick out, buck the system, or bring attention to yourself. Focus on only fulfilling the requirements of your job. Use normal means of contact. Present yourself as a normal person with basic skills and competency in working with people. Be reliable.
Fourth: you've been looking for a year; this is not uncommon. Do you have friends or family to ask for help? Ask them. If you don't, you'll need to reach out to resources in your city for people who don't have a job or are homeless. You may need to look into daily/weekly/monthly housing if you can't afford an apartment. Look into job training programs, unemployment, shelters, private outreach programs. Keep applying to minimum wage jobs. Contact temp agencies, staffing agencies, recruiting agencies.
Fifth: If you really feel like Bill Landreth, keep reaching out for help. This is a good start. Look into local social services. Call SAMHSA (https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline). Contact a local PATH provider (https://pathpdx.samhsa.gov/public?tab=stateandprovidercontac...). Contact a local ESMI provider (https://www.samhsa.gov/esmi-treatment-locator). Tell them that you have concerns about your mental health but that you are soon to be homeless and need help. Find someone who can help you work through how to deal with this scenario while also working on the path you chose above.
Good luck to you man. Keep at it, you will be OK.
You need to develop some significant experience "collateral". Unfortunately your pattern of quitting is a red flag and while it doesn't exclude you it means anybody in a hiring position needs to see positive evidence that you can actually contribute in a serious, long term manner.
Either an unsexy job coding (short term contract work, etc) - or - seriously beef up your open source (github, gitlab etc) portfolio with some really top notch contributions and ideally some projects of your own.
Also - I know this might be controversial, but drop the fsf email at least for your job applications. I'm a huge fan of FSF but I can tell you it's also flagging you as a potential over-zealous, opinionated person and all things being equal someone equivalent who seems pragmatic without that is going to get the job.
Either an unsexy job coding (short term contract work, etc) - or - seriously beef up your open source (github, gitlab etc) portfolio with some really top notch contributions and ideally some projects of your own.
Also - I know this might be controversial, but drop the fsf email at least for your job applications. I'm a huge fan of FSF but I can tell you it's also flagging you as a potential over-zealous, opinionated person and all things being equal someone equivalent who seems pragmatic without that is going to get the job.
Have you tried making a profile on Dice?
I was looking for positions and as soon as I made my profile public, I instantly started getting calls/emails from recruiters. Some of them are shady or hiring for bad companies, but if you know what you want (sounds like you do), it makes the process a lot easier.
I was looking for positions and as soon as I made my profile public, I instantly started getting calls/emails from recruiters. Some of them are shady or hiring for bad companies, but if you know what you want (sounds like you do), it makes the process a lot easier.
Here's my overall suggestions, some of which are overlaps with other people's advice:
- Find a local programming or software or security group, get some contacts. Have people mock interview you as though you are applying for a job at their organization. Have them be brutally candid. My guess is that you come across as some combination of arrogant and disjointed, just from the writing and the patchwork of roles. See if someone will tell you that (or something else!) to your face.
- You need to build a narrative. I also do not have a college degree, and in the early days of my career it was very challenging to get people to talk to me. The key is to have a very clear story about why you are the best at X and/or Y and how past work funnels into this role you are applying for.
- Companies like google, facebook, etc. have so many candidates that they are totally willing to pass on perfectly qualified people that don't fit the mold of who they want to hire. They see it as a feature, not a bug, but it is not in your favor. Look for smaller companies, maybe less senior roles, maybe contract gigs, anything to build that narrative and give you some resume items.
- You should be networking, with those people from the first bullet point. If you develop a local reputation as someone who is smart and just has a funny resume, you are a lot more likely to get hired. By the same token, if you develop a local reputation as over-opinionated and hard to work with, you will know it and that is why you are having challenges.
- Don't get discouraged about stuff like the manual labor job - they're pattern matching as much as a big company like Google does. They look at your resume and say, "Man, this guy is all over the place, he is going to be more of a hassle than he is worth" and go hire the 19 year old who just wants a paycheck
- Think about consulting, either directly with a company or freelancing on fiverr, etc. Is it exciting? No. Can it pay the bills? Yes. Can it build towards this narrative that you came up with a few steps before? Yes, potentially.
- Find a local programming or software or security group, get some contacts. Have people mock interview you as though you are applying for a job at their organization. Have them be brutally candid. My guess is that you come across as some combination of arrogant and disjointed, just from the writing and the patchwork of roles. See if someone will tell you that (or something else!) to your face.
- You need to build a narrative. I also do not have a college degree, and in the early days of my career it was very challenging to get people to talk to me. The key is to have a very clear story about why you are the best at X and/or Y and how past work funnels into this role you are applying for.
- Companies like google, facebook, etc. have so many candidates that they are totally willing to pass on perfectly qualified people that don't fit the mold of who they want to hire. They see it as a feature, not a bug, but it is not in your favor. Look for smaller companies, maybe less senior roles, maybe contract gigs, anything to build that narrative and give you some resume items.
- You should be networking, with those people from the first bullet point. If you develop a local reputation as someone who is smart and just has a funny resume, you are a lot more likely to get hired. By the same token, if you develop a local reputation as over-opinionated and hard to work with, you will know it and that is why you are having challenges.
- Don't get discouraged about stuff like the manual labor job - they're pattern matching as much as a big company like Google does. They look at your resume and say, "Man, this guy is all over the place, he is going to be more of a hassle than he is worth" and go hire the 19 year old who just wants a paycheck
- Think about consulting, either directly with a company or freelancing on fiverr, etc. Is it exciting? No. Can it pay the bills? Yes. Can it build towards this narrative that you came up with a few steps before? Yes, potentially.
> "I haven't lasted anywhere longer than 2 months. I contribute a lot and then quit after I feel like I'm not getting appropriate compensation."
After two months in my latest gig I was still learning names of people in the org, being onboarded to project and trying to piece together the codebase. Seems like you need to learn some lessons in humility.
Occam's razor is a principal that applies here. You are getting turned down because you are simply not an attractive enough applicant. If you want to improve your chances- you need to put more energy into what you've already mentioned.
I know some people who have put 150 hours of their time into leetcode problems alone before their interview for an entry-level position at Google.
After two months in my latest gig I was still learning names of people in the org, being onboarded to project and trying to piece together the codebase. Seems like you need to learn some lessons in humility.
Occam's razor is a principal that applies here. You are getting turned down because you are simply not an attractive enough applicant. If you want to improve your chances- you need to put more energy into what you've already mentioned.
I know some people who have put 150 hours of their time into leetcode problems alone before their interview for an entry-level position at Google.
What do you have to offer the companies you've applied for?
It's deeply unjust we live in a society where simply being a person isn't enough to merit having a home and medical care, but that problem isn't going to be solved in time to help you.
Or, in other words, I'm not going to say "The world doesn't owe you a job" - but the world certainly acts as if it doesn't owe you a job, and you need to deal with that.
If I were a customer support manager and wanted to hire you, what would make me hire you over someone else? From your post, it sounds like the things you have to offer are that you'd help other parts of the company with their problems, and you'd want to transfer internally in well under a year. That's maybe good for the company, but that's not good for me - I don't get any recognition (or even headcount) for things my new hires on customer support do to help other random parts of the company, I'm evaluated on whether my customer support people do customer support. And new hires need to be trained on the company's procedures, which takes a while, so if they leave after a year - even if it's better for the company in the long term - that time is largely wasted.
Sure, you're providing value to the company. But that value is measured by one specific person, your boss. What are you telling potential bosses that you'll do? When they ask you about how you've brought value in previous jobs and about what you're likely to do, do they leave that conversation with the impression that hiring you will be a good decision for them personally?
I hope you're telling them things other than how you went off solving other problems unrelated to your job, no matter how cool it was.
It sounds like you're smart. Point that smartness in the direction of making it financially worthwhile for someone to hire you. You need to offer them more benefit than they offer you, and you need to offer them more benefit than the other applicants for the role would.
(So, if you want good compensation, you need to offer then quite a lot of benefit.)
It's deeply unjust we live in a society where simply being a person isn't enough to merit having a home and medical care, but that problem isn't going to be solved in time to help you.
Or, in other words, I'm not going to say "The world doesn't owe you a job" - but the world certainly acts as if it doesn't owe you a job, and you need to deal with that.
If I were a customer support manager and wanted to hire you, what would make me hire you over someone else? From your post, it sounds like the things you have to offer are that you'd help other parts of the company with their problems, and you'd want to transfer internally in well under a year. That's maybe good for the company, but that's not good for me - I don't get any recognition (or even headcount) for things my new hires on customer support do to help other random parts of the company, I'm evaluated on whether my customer support people do customer support. And new hires need to be trained on the company's procedures, which takes a while, so if they leave after a year - even if it's better for the company in the long term - that time is largely wasted.
Sure, you're providing value to the company. But that value is measured by one specific person, your boss. What are you telling potential bosses that you'll do? When they ask you about how you've brought value in previous jobs and about what you're likely to do, do they leave that conversation with the impression that hiring you will be a good decision for them personally?
I hope you're telling them things other than how you went off solving other problems unrelated to your job, no matter how cool it was.
It sounds like you're smart. Point that smartness in the direction of making it financially worthwhile for someone to hire you. You need to offer them more benefit than they offer you, and you need to offer them more benefit than the other applicants for the role would.
(So, if you want good compensation, you need to offer then quite a lot of benefit.)
> It's deeply unjust we live in a society where simply being a person isn't enough to merit having a home and medical care
We should really get moving on that. We still need to build housing for about 1.6 billion and I don't know of good estimates about how many more doctors and hospitals we need to provide that care. Right now, it feels like it's mostly the Catholic church building hospitals, which is why so many are named after saints.
We should really get moving on that. We still need to build housing for about 1.6 billion and I don't know of good estimates about how many more doctors and hospitals we need to provide that care. Right now, it feels like it's mostly the Catholic church building hospitals, which is why so many are named after saints.
1. Stop job hopping!
Instead job level-up.
The difference is that you build something to launch yourself up higher. You had the gem of that at Amazon in your outreach efforts but left rather than pursue it.
Take it on the chin and re-contact Amazon and point out your previous extra efforts and point out that you would like to find out what path there might be for those that do such efforts. Possibly the same Vp you emailed the suggestion to perhaps.
you have the gem already to solve this in what you did at Amazon in reaching out to the VP with a useful suggestion.
You now have to own it in that you have to focus on those extra efforts with better out-reach communication. Ask that VP for assistance in that aspect.
Instead job level-up.
The difference is that you build something to launch yourself up higher. You had the gem of that at Amazon in your outreach efforts but left rather than pursue it.
Take it on the chin and re-contact Amazon and point out your previous extra efforts and point out that you would like to find out what path there might be for those that do such efforts. Possibly the same Vp you emailed the suggestion to perhaps.
you have the gem already to solve this in what you did at Amazon in reaching out to the VP with a useful suggestion.
You now have to own it in that you have to focus on those extra efforts with better out-reach communication. Ask that VP for assistance in that aspect.
Since you're scared ...
You can drive a semi-truck. That was my solution for pay and health care, after destroying my software career. Most large trucking companies either have their own CDL school or contract out. Driving a semi-truck is a learnable skill, and you will get hired. My company paid for my school, requiring a year of work or I'd have to pay it back.
Short term, if you're "really" scared, you can get hired anywhere as a security guard. That was also my solution, until I figured out truck driving was viable.
If you don't find any "in-career" suggestions that work for you in this thread, think out of that career box.
You can drive a semi-truck. That was my solution for pay and health care, after destroying my software career. Most large trucking companies either have their own CDL school or contract out. Driving a semi-truck is a learnable skill, and you will get hired. My company paid for my school, requiring a year of work or I'd have to pay it back.
Short term, if you're "really" scared, you can get hired anywhere as a security guard. That was also my solution, until I figured out truck driving was viable.
If you don't find any "in-career" suggestions that work for you in this thread, think out of that career box.
Candidly:
1. The kind of companies you are applying to (apart from DoE and I guess Dell) are literally the "best" places in the world to work. You are going up against people with objectively much much better qualifications and experience than you. Aim lower. Life is tough and sometimes certain paths are just shut off for you, permanently. You can point to the one person who is killing it at Google after working as a grocery bagger for 20 years. Thats not going to be you, statistically speaking.
2. You do not seem genuinely interested in any company. You come across like that college student who applies to all the top companies as....they're the top companies. Find what you want to do and apply to do that, no matter where and in what junior position. Look I do not know you but I'd bet a lot of money you took the amazon gig just to say you work at Amazon.
3. You do not seem genuinely interested in the day-to-day job you are going for. Again, if you did, I do not see why you are not applying to do that job at...a local high school, if needed
4. Intern in the role you want. Do it for free for a charity (volunteer). Blog about it. Make YT vids about it. Why do you think speaking to an SVP would even matter? The chances they will give you a shot are slim to none. What did you even say to them? Give me job. I hack?
5. Personally, I appreciate your "spoofing" antics. It shows a bit of daring and networking. I don't think its creepy IMO.
2. You do not seem genuinely interested in any company. You come across like that college student who applies to all the top companies as....they're the top companies. Find what you want to do and apply to do that, no matter where and in what junior position. Look I do not know you but I'd bet a lot of money you took the amazon gig just to say you work at Amazon.
3. You do not seem genuinely interested in the day-to-day job you are going for. Again, if you did, I do not see why you are not applying to do that job at...a local high school, if needed
4. Intern in the role you want. Do it for free for a charity (volunteer). Blog about it. Make YT vids about it. Why do you think speaking to an SVP would even matter? The chances they will give you a shot are slim to none. What did you even say to them? Give me job. I hack?
5. Personally, I appreciate your "spoofing" antics. It shows a bit of daring and networking. I don't think its creepy IMO.
Amazon's warehouse jobs pay about the same as the customer service jobs but have decent health insurance. They hire everyone that passes a basic background check, no interview or anything.
Adding to other observations here:
You got meetings with SVPs at Dell, Cisco, etc. Those are *really high positions* that you reached out to directly. They have hundreds of people under them, possibly over a thousand. They have problems upon problems to deal with. They won't have any time for a single new hire, let alone someone who is still at the early stage of their career.
People who've worked in plum tech jobs for 20 years still think twice before reaching out to an SVP directly.
Set your sights lower.
You got meetings with SVPs at Dell, Cisco, etc. Those are *really high positions* that you reached out to directly. They have hundreds of people under them, possibly over a thousand. They have problems upon problems to deal with. They won't have any time for a single new hire, let alone someone who is still at the early stage of their career.
People who've worked in plum tech jobs for 20 years still think twice before reaching out to an SVP directly.
Set your sights lower.
Like others have said, having short stays at previous companies can be perceived as negative. The same applies to bypassing filters, even if your intentions aren't malicious, although as usual YMMV.
Many companies want to see that you can continue to work and transition away to other better jobs as opposed to leaving, although that's easier said that done in many cases.
In terms of healthcare, Medicaid can be incredibly frustrating. What are you looking for that isn't available through it?
At this point in time I think it's much harder than normal to get a job because of COVID/etc. My feeling is that lots of companies are waiting for the other shoe to drop in terms of the economy/COVID.
You also may have a lot more trouble going directly into Tech. It might be easier to get there by first getting hired in Finance, Health, etc... Things aren't permanent, and sometimes you'll have opportunities that aren't present in other sectors.
Last but not least, your perception of the world might be on the binary side. Does Bill Landreth think he ended up in a bad place? Sometimes having a seat at the table is better than doing your own thing because you might be able to change more at the table. Also, nothing's permanent. If stuff doesn't work out, you can leave.
Many companies want to see that you can continue to work and transition away to other better jobs as opposed to leaving, although that's easier said that done in many cases.
In terms of healthcare, Medicaid can be incredibly frustrating. What are you looking for that isn't available through it?
At this point in time I think it's much harder than normal to get a job because of COVID/etc. My feeling is that lots of companies are waiting for the other shoe to drop in terms of the economy/COVID.
You also may have a lot more trouble going directly into Tech. It might be easier to get there by first getting hired in Finance, Health, etc... Things aren't permanent, and sometimes you'll have opportunities that aren't present in other sectors.
Last but not least, your perception of the world might be on the binary side. Does Bill Landreth think he ended up in a bad place? Sometimes having a seat at the table is better than doing your own thing because you might be able to change more at the table. Also, nothing's permanent. If stuff doesn't work out, you can leave.
Maybe I'm a bit late to the party here, but I do career coaching and I'd be happy to schedule a free 30 min chat / do a practice interview. [Email in profile]
Regarding my experience, I have passed SWE interviews at google (interned at oculus/facebook) / regularly conduct such interviews at my company. On a bit more personal note, I definitely had a phase in my life where social interactions didn't come naturally. I needed to break down social interactions and create rules to better navigate them.
Regarding baseline feedback, there is already a lot here, I'd just say that your number one focus should be to get a job and focus on keeping that job for a year or two. People will only trust you with more senior roles if you can demonstrate a track record of commitment. Of course, it may be the case that all of your previous jobs were bad situations to begin with, but people who are looking to hire you now don't know what happened and will see leaving many jobs as a red/yellow flag.
I imagine that it will take effort, but is totally within your capabilities, to work on staying committed to a job for 1-2 years even it if feels below you, etc. It may take some changes in perspective, but it is definitely possible to get help with navigating the mental hurdles that come with staying at a job even if it isn't the most exciting thing in the world.
I'd also take a lot of the armchair diagnosing with a grain of salt. Its normal for people to struggle with various types of social interactions. If getting diagnosed were important to you, you could definitely see a licensed psychologist (not me).
All that being said, let me know if I can help!
Regarding my experience, I have passed SWE interviews at google (interned at oculus/facebook) / regularly conduct such interviews at my company. On a bit more personal note, I definitely had a phase in my life where social interactions didn't come naturally. I needed to break down social interactions and create rules to better navigate them.
Regarding baseline feedback, there is already a lot here, I'd just say that your number one focus should be to get a job and focus on keeping that job for a year or two. People will only trust you with more senior roles if you can demonstrate a track record of commitment. Of course, it may be the case that all of your previous jobs were bad situations to begin with, but people who are looking to hire you now don't know what happened and will see leaving many jobs as a red/yellow flag.
I imagine that it will take effort, but is totally within your capabilities, to work on staying committed to a job for 1-2 years even it if feels below you, etc. It may take some changes in perspective, but it is definitely possible to get help with navigating the mental hurdles that come with staying at a job even if it isn't the most exciting thing in the world.
I'd also take a lot of the armchair diagnosing with a grain of salt. Its normal for people to struggle with various types of social interactions. If getting diagnosed were important to you, you could definitely see a licensed psychologist (not me).
All that being said, let me know if I can help!
I don't always have my shit together, but that's more the nature of my business as well as my mental state at the time (ADHD).
That said: I was obese and very sedentary at 30, lots of back pain, etc. Standing jobs, not something I could really do. So, I learned to code. But then, how do you get a job when you're not a college grad?
Well, you write blog posts, you create a github portfolio, etc... and then do shitty jobs on upwork or something till you get higher paying gigs... etc.
I still have imposter syndrome but have some good clients that treat me well (I mostly freelance, and selling myself is usually where my famine months come from).
So, I can't really say how to get a decent job w/ the benefits as I freelance, but I know freelancers who make > 100/hour which is generally enough to self-pay for benefits.
I think your best bet w/ less experience is maybe going to WeWorkRemotely and looking at the customer service jobs? Some of those pay > $20 and have decent benefits, or maybe some other job you think you'd qualify on there for. Angel list is another good place for startups w/ VC funding (read: can afford benefits).
That said: I was obese and very sedentary at 30, lots of back pain, etc. Standing jobs, not something I could really do. So, I learned to code. But then, how do you get a job when you're not a college grad?
Well, you write blog posts, you create a github portfolio, etc... and then do shitty jobs on upwork or something till you get higher paying gigs... etc.
I still have imposter syndrome but have some good clients that treat me well (I mostly freelance, and selling myself is usually where my famine months come from).
So, I can't really say how to get a decent job w/ the benefits as I freelance, but I know freelancers who make > 100/hour which is generally enough to self-pay for benefits.
I think your best bet w/ less experience is maybe going to WeWorkRemotely and looking at the customer service jobs? Some of those pay > $20 and have decent benefits, or maybe some other job you think you'd qualify on there for. Angel list is another good place for startups w/ VC funding (read: can afford benefits).
I'm fascinated that you were able to interview and in a few cases get hired by companies with a massively high bar and sophisticated screening. Someone let you in the door because they saw something in you. They wanted to give you a shot, that they DO NOT give to just anyone.
This almost certainly has to be a significant problem with mental health or social skills. You're just not fitting in, so you're getting ejected over and over.
Assuming mental health is something you've accepted may be the problem, my advice is:
1) Go to therapy and invest in it. If you're prescribed meds, take the meds. If they give you goofy homework do the homework. Double down on it. (this helped me)
2) Accept that even though you have talent, these bigger companies just may not be the right fit for you. There are many small tech businesses, including development and security consulting shops and agencies (think 100 people or less) that pay well and are staffed with talented misfits. They tend to be very nurturing places that let you carve out your role and find your place. Smaller businesses have health plans etc too. Be humble and have an open mind.
This almost certainly has to be a significant problem with mental health or social skills. You're just not fitting in, so you're getting ejected over and over.
Assuming mental health is something you've accepted may be the problem, my advice is:
1) Go to therapy and invest in it. If you're prescribed meds, take the meds. If they give you goofy homework do the homework. Double down on it. (this helped me)
2) Accept that even though you have talent, these bigger companies just may not be the right fit for you. There are many small tech businesses, including development and security consulting shops and agencies (think 100 people or less) that pay well and are staffed with talented misfits. They tend to be very nurturing places that let you carve out your role and find your place. Smaller businesses have health plans etc too. Be humble and have an open mind.
One thing that managers generally does not like is staff that does not “fall in line” and create issues for them that they have to deal with. I would therefor not mention for example having emailed VP:s about issues or highlighting bypass functionality in systems (if your previous job description did not include to highlight this).
From a managers perspective in the example, they are trying to run an operation of good support. They have to comply with different laws and have a solution “that works”. They may not appreciate that someone in the staff highlights “flaws”. If someone highlight flaws of this type anyways:
1) if highlighted by a staff member may have to be addressed. In particular from a staff member that emails VPs. Some point in time, possibly after a difficult process, legal may have ticked this off. The manager may not be happy to have to revisit this question again.
2) It may be difficult to address for the manager (request new support services software? Get an opinion from legal? - may be a large project)
3) disrupts the main goal of the manager of providing good support services.
From a managers perspective in the example, they are trying to run an operation of good support. They have to comply with different laws and have a solution “that works”. They may not appreciate that someone in the staff highlights “flaws”. If someone highlight flaws of this type anyways:
1) if highlighted by a staff member may have to be addressed. In particular from a staff member that emails VPs. Some point in time, possibly after a difficult process, legal may have ticked this off. The manager may not be happy to have to revisit this question again.
2) It may be difficult to address for the manager (request new support services software? Get an opinion from legal? - may be a large project)
3) disrupts the main goal of the manager of providing good support services.
You are not unhireable, you're just not patient and you don't understand your situation: You aren't going to get a good job without a college degree. You're going to get the lowest level job and have to work your way up. That may be true even with a degree, but a degree will make getting getting one of those low level jobs a lot easier.
Honestly I don't know how you managed to get a dev job at IBM in the first place, but low pay and little benefits are all you can expect when you're starting out with your level of education and experience. You shouldn't have quit a dev job with IBM, without another job lined up: 3 years experience there would have made getting a better job much easier.
Also not getting a response from a company isn't "ghosted". It's standard practice that many places don't contact applicants to let them know they aren't getting the job. Saying you were ghosted makes it sound like you think it was something personal about you. It wasn't.
Home Depot: The retail sector has been shit this past year. People were getting fired left & right. Your failure to get a job at a retail store like Home Depot is no surprise, and has nothing to do with you.
My advice would be to complete your degree as soon as possible. I'm looking at two identical resumes and the only difference is that one of them completed a college degree, I'm offering the job to the person with the degree.
In the meantime, register with temp agencies to try to get some work that builds your resume & experience. If you can get even a shit level job in dev, take it and stick it out.
I'm not saying that all of the above is fair, but "fair" is irrelevant here: This is how things work, and you have to deal with it on those terms.
Honestly I don't know how you managed to get a dev job at IBM in the first place, but low pay and little benefits are all you can expect when you're starting out with your level of education and experience. You shouldn't have quit a dev job with IBM, without another job lined up: 3 years experience there would have made getting a better job much easier.
Also not getting a response from a company isn't "ghosted". It's standard practice that many places don't contact applicants to let them know they aren't getting the job. Saying you were ghosted makes it sound like you think it was something personal about you. It wasn't.
Home Depot: The retail sector has been shit this past year. People were getting fired left & right. Your failure to get a job at a retail store like Home Depot is no surprise, and has nothing to do with you.
My advice would be to complete your degree as soon as possible. I'm looking at two identical resumes and the only difference is that one of them completed a college degree, I'm offering the job to the person with the degree.
In the meantime, register with temp agencies to try to get some work that builds your resume & experience. If you can get even a shit level job in dev, take it and stick it out.
I'm not saying that all of the above is fair, but "fair" is irrelevant here: This is how things work, and you have to deal with it on those terms.
My advice is make sure you have the programming fundamentals. Online courses are available - MIT offers great classes and free too. Taking some kind of accelerator or bootcamp might work for you too.
Supplement learning with doing projects. Create some things you want to play around with. I found implementing data structures was a good project while learning programming because it simultaneously helped familiarize me with the data structures and with learning programming. Add on some projects in the areas you're interested in. Chat app, video game, website, whatever. I also suggest reading official documentation for a language or library instead of a book on the subject. The official docs, if good, are a lot more dense and valuable. I taught myself python just by reading their official docs and it was the easiest experience I've ever had learning a language.
As you get ready for the interview I would watch YouTube videos that take you through mock interviews. Listen to questions, pause the videos, give your answers, then listen to their analysis. You don't always need to agree with these videos, but it's good stuff to think about.
I also highly recommend leetcode. I know some people look down on it but software interviews often have a component that is basically a leetcode question. I suggest solving 2-300 problems, mostly medium or hard, and making sure you can solve any medium or easy question, and explain it as you go, in under half an hour. If you get stuck YouTube is a good resource to see people explain leetcode problems.
I have also found it helpful to write a little log as you're learning or working on a side project. I take notes of major failures and ask, and then explain in writing, why that happened and how I can prevent it in the future. When you find yourself writing multiple entries in the log with the same explanation, you know you've found a costly error you need to correct!
Supplement learning with doing projects. Create some things you want to play around with. I found implementing data structures was a good project while learning programming because it simultaneously helped familiarize me with the data structures and with learning programming. Add on some projects in the areas you're interested in. Chat app, video game, website, whatever. I also suggest reading official documentation for a language or library instead of a book on the subject. The official docs, if good, are a lot more dense and valuable. I taught myself python just by reading their official docs and it was the easiest experience I've ever had learning a language.
As you get ready for the interview I would watch YouTube videos that take you through mock interviews. Listen to questions, pause the videos, give your answers, then listen to their analysis. You don't always need to agree with these videos, but it's good stuff to think about.
I also highly recommend leetcode. I know some people look down on it but software interviews often have a component that is basically a leetcode question. I suggest solving 2-300 problems, mostly medium or hard, and making sure you can solve any medium or easy question, and explain it as you go, in under half an hour. If you get stuck YouTube is a good resource to see people explain leetcode problems.
I have also found it helpful to write a little log as you're learning or working on a side project. I take notes of major failures and ask, and then explain in writing, why that happened and how I can prevent it in the future. When you find yourself writing multiple entries in the log with the same explanation, you know you've found a costly error you need to correct!
Credentials: You have to finish a university / college degree, at least a bachelor. Spend the entire last year of the studies to also look for job leads for after graduation. Stay in uni and finish the entire degree. Try to expand your horizon as much as possible, get to know people from a broad set of backgrounds. Lift weights and run/bike/swim.
Interview prep: Then try getting good at Case jnterviews, which are good for structuring your thoughts in an interview session. I really like Victorcheng.com .
Network: Then you must network, you must be part if a social graph to make it.
Social skills: Force yourself to be outgoing. If you are not already, it is a fresh skill that needs to be maintained.
Career councelling: And you must have a narrative that does not paint you a picture as a quitter. Get a pro to redo your CV and get interview coaching.
You are not alone in struggling to get going in the market. My advice here will work if you take the long hard road. This thread also contains a lot of good advice for you.
Interview prep: Then try getting good at Case jnterviews, which are good for structuring your thoughts in an interview session. I really like Victorcheng.com .
Network: Then you must network, you must be part if a social graph to make it.
Social skills: Force yourself to be outgoing. If you are not already, it is a fresh skill that needs to be maintained.
Career councelling: And you must have a narrative that does not paint you a picture as a quitter. Get a pro to redo your CV and get interview coaching.
You are not alone in struggling to get going in the market. My advice here will work if you take the long hard road. This thread also contains a lot of good advice for you.
I am in germany, so, things in the job market are a bit different here... but let me try an advice:
Why not try something completely different for a while? In the early 2000s i was in your shoes, nobody wanted to hire me despite some (from my perspective) good skills. I was totally frustrated and didn´t thought i would ever get any half decent job... so, out of a sheer "f*ck to the world" rage i joined the german army.
After spending about two years in camouflage suits following orders of total barbarians and putting my body through more pain i would ever have dreamed of i got back to the civilian market and landed within three weeks after my release from the military a good job as an system administrator with a good company.
What i want to say with this little story: Don´t focus to much on what you want now, you will get frustrated and potential employers will see this frustration... do something completely different for a while, get your head clear and start all over again.
Why not try something completely different for a while? In the early 2000s i was in your shoes, nobody wanted to hire me despite some (from my perspective) good skills. I was totally frustrated and didn´t thought i would ever get any half decent job... so, out of a sheer "f*ck to the world" rage i joined the german army.
After spending about two years in camouflage suits following orders of total barbarians and putting my body through more pain i would ever have dreamed of i got back to the civilian market and landed within three weeks after my release from the military a good job as an system administrator with a good company.
What i want to say with this little story: Don´t focus to much on what you want now, you will get frustrated and potential employers will see this frustration... do something completely different for a while, get your head clear and start all over again.
IMO you want two incompatible things - you want the security and good pay of a corporate drone while living the hotshot maverick life that gets away with being above the things. There are few jobs that will allow you that and they require to be with the company from the start, a smaller company and quite a bit of luck to land one.
So just choose one of those paths.
So just choose one of those paths.
If you're a rockstar coder, you should be able to crush something like Triplebyte, skip directly through to talking to founders and find some who will tolerate your scattered personality.
They might not be there in a year, and you might not be there in two months, so at least your time horizons match ;)
Also 'What Color is Your Parachute' is a must-read. As suggested there, you'll get much better feedback if you connect with tons of engineers (not hiring managers). They'll give you a straight take and in many cases suggest other places that are hiring and more of a fit.
Personalities don't change. Focus on turning your weaknesses--short time horizon, ownership mentality, all-over-the-place--into strengths. This means very early startups, consulting/contract work, or possibly launching your own projects. Forget about big companies completely and just try to talk to a few dozen very early startups whose risk profile includes making bets on SWEs.
They might not be there in a year, and you might not be there in two months, so at least your time horizons match ;)
Also 'What Color is Your Parachute' is a must-read. As suggested there, you'll get much better feedback if you connect with tons of engineers (not hiring managers). They'll give you a straight take and in many cases suggest other places that are hiring and more of a fit.
Personalities don't change. Focus on turning your weaknesses--short time horizon, ownership mentality, all-over-the-place--into strengths. This means very early startups, consulting/contract work, or possibly launching your own projects. Forget about big companies completely and just try to talk to a few dozen very early startups whose risk profile includes making bets on SWEs.
I've never worked outside academia, so obviously take my advice with a huge grain of salt. To me it seems the common theme is that you are consistently applying to massive beurocratic organizations with rigid pre-established rules, and are then disappointed that you fit poorly into that structure. Have you tried looking at smaller places? This way even if you are entry level, your immediate boss will hold more meaningful decision making power. Your willingness to branch out independently and identify/fix problems will be more of an asset if there isn't already a person or department dedicated to every aspect of operations. Im wondering about maybe machinist type jobs at a local place, as they tend to be less picky about college education, but your technical and software skills could help you move quickly depending on what you're doing. Maybe you end up also fixing their business software backend etc
[deleted]
> Google, Facebook, Dell, NSA, CIA, DoE (E=Energy), Airbnb, Palantir
Maybe try some less big-name companies. Google is not the easiest place to land a job.
> Reading Meyers, Knuth etc
As in the art of programming? If you read the entirety of that, and understood it, that's a huge accomplishment. Probably not something that will get you a job (i know everyone complains about having to reverse a binary tree on a whiteboard, but its pretty rare to actually need to do that). Anyways, its something you should be proud of.
> and wrote a detailed e-mail to the VP in charge of the anti-fraud system
I don't know how it works at amazon, but usually VPs aren't the right person to contact about bugs.
> I tried cold contacting executives at a few companies. Got meeting with SVP at Dell, CISO etc. was fruitless though. Spoofed number to bypass contact whitelist etc.
Definitely don't do that. Any plan for getting a job that involves tricking people or being obnoxious, is a bad plan.
----
I think you need to work on demonstrating your value/selling yourself. Like just from this paragraph (i appreciate its not a resume), its unclear if you have very good hard skills (no degree, no work history. You don't have to have a degree or work history to get a job, but if you don't have those you need something else to demonstrate you have those skills. You need to be able to say something to make the interviewer think you can do the job). Its also sounds like you have weak soft skills (e.g. how to negotiate the politics of an office environment, what is and isn't appropriate in a professional environment, how to get along with others, etc). My understanding is that often people who go to therapy for other reasons often need help with that sort of thing, so a therapist might be able to point you in the direction of resources to help with that sort of thing.
Maybe try some less big-name companies. Google is not the easiest place to land a job.
> Reading Meyers, Knuth etc
As in the art of programming? If you read the entirety of that, and understood it, that's a huge accomplishment. Probably not something that will get you a job (i know everyone complains about having to reverse a binary tree on a whiteboard, but its pretty rare to actually need to do that). Anyways, its something you should be proud of.
> and wrote a detailed e-mail to the VP in charge of the anti-fraud system
I don't know how it works at amazon, but usually VPs aren't the right person to contact about bugs.
> I tried cold contacting executives at a few companies. Got meeting with SVP at Dell, CISO etc. was fruitless though. Spoofed number to bypass contact whitelist etc.
Definitely don't do that. Any plan for getting a job that involves tricking people or being obnoxious, is a bad plan.
----
I think you need to work on demonstrating your value/selling yourself. Like just from this paragraph (i appreciate its not a resume), its unclear if you have very good hard skills (no degree, no work history. You don't have to have a degree or work history to get a job, but if you don't have those you need something else to demonstrate you have those skills. You need to be able to say something to make the interviewer think you can do the job). Its also sounds like you have weak soft skills (e.g. how to negotiate the politics of an office environment, what is and isn't appropriate in a professional environment, how to get along with others, etc). My understanding is that often people who go to therapy for other reasons often need help with that sort of thing, so a therapist might be able to point you in the direction of resources to help with that sort of thing.
Lots of great comments. May I point out something obvious though-- the poster has been looking for entry-level work during a horrendous 12 month labor downturn. Maybe it's been a better market for skilled technical positions, but apparently that's not the relevant market here....
I'm going to speculate that maybe the op has crossed a threshold from 'eager' to 'desperate'. That's not helpful to the job search. At this point the poster knows the industry, he probably identified a few quirky opportunities for people with similar resumes get on promising job tracks. Stay close to those, figure out how you can be useful to folks in those spaces and demonstrate it to them. And most importantly-- this is hard-- find enough peace and stability in your current situation so you don't come across as desperate, just eager.
I'm going to speculate that maybe the op has crossed a threshold from 'eager' to 'desperate'. That's not helpful to the job search. At this point the poster knows the industry, he probably identified a few quirky opportunities for people with similar resumes get on promising job tracks. Stay close to those, figure out how you can be useful to folks in those spaces and demonstrate it to them. And most importantly-- this is hard-- find enough peace and stability in your current situation so you don't come across as desperate, just eager.
When it comes to hiring "hacker type" people, we're always extremely cautious about them being trustworthy, because the amount of damage they can do is exponentially higher. There's no room for mistakes. You likely didn't pass the smell test.
As for Home Depot, you're clearly the wrong person for the job, even if you can do it. You'd likely have better chances with less skill, odd as that may sound.
In general, you may want to try saying less, especially when it comes to your "hacker skills".
> I need a job with decent health/dental insurance. Medicaid is useless. I might be homeless soon.
This doesn't make sense to me. If you're at risk of being homeless, maybe getting "decent" health insurance shouldn't be a requirement. I suspect you have some self-sabotaging tendencies, which is another red flag from a hiring perspective.
As for Home Depot, you're clearly the wrong person for the job, even if you can do it. You'd likely have better chances with less skill, odd as that may sound.
In general, you may want to try saying less, especially when it comes to your "hacker skills".
> I need a job with decent health/dental insurance. Medicaid is useless. I might be homeless soon.
This doesn't make sense to me. If you're at risk of being homeless, maybe getting "decent" health insurance shouldn't be a requirement. I suspect you have some self-sabotaging tendencies, which is another red flag from a hiring perspective.
Have you been looking for security based roles and pen testing type roles? It sounds like you enjoy that type of work moreso than you'd enjoy a typical software dev job where you're building web forms or APIs that return JSON etc. I would also second the suggestion that you speak to recruiting agencies but even through agencies first look for jobs in security that could take advantage of your natural curiosity in that area. You sound naturally in love with technology but not necessarily a builder. And that may not be a bad thing if you can just find the right opportunity. Also maybe reach out to Hacker News user tptacek [1]?
And if you do use agencies ask for advice/coaching through interviews from day 0.
1. https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=tptacek
And if you do use agencies ask for advice/coaching through interviews from day 0.
1. https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=tptacek
You don't really sound like you are cut out to work a corporate job. And that's not a bad thing.
I'd say find whatever job you can get your hands on that has basic benefits, and focus your energy on creating the next Symantec or whatever.
And maybe, someday, some oddball might contact you with spoofed credentials looking for a job.
I'd say find whatever job you can get your hands on that has basic benefits, and focus your energy on creating the next Symantec or whatever.
And maybe, someday, some oddball might contact you with spoofed credentials looking for a job.
I suggest temping.
When I needed to do that, I found only one agency out of like half a dozen in my area was any help. It was the same one that I got a job through almost 20 years ago. So it's important not to give up if some of them seem to be wasting your time.
If you need good benefits, then a government job may be the way to go. I've never known anyone who got one directly, but there can be loopholes, and temping is one route.
Extremely boring companies and organizations are more likely to promote you from a low level job in my experience, because they're not drowning in talent in the first place. Get a job doing stuff manually, figure out how to automate it.
Listening to people who have trouble explaining what they need can be far more valuable than pure technical skill. Treating nontechnical people as human beings is easier than anything people will tell you to do on HN.
When I needed to do that, I found only one agency out of like half a dozen in my area was any help. It was the same one that I got a job through almost 20 years ago. So it's important not to give up if some of them seem to be wasting your time.
If you need good benefits, then a government job may be the way to go. I've never known anyone who got one directly, but there can be loopholes, and temping is one route.
Extremely boring companies and organizations are more likely to promote you from a low level job in my experience, because they're not drowning in talent in the first place. Get a job doing stuff manually, figure out how to automate it.
Listening to people who have trouble explaining what they need can be far more valuable than pure technical skill. Treating nontechnical people as human beings is easier than anything people will tell you to do on HN.
It is no guarentee, but temping/contractor work is how I got into Big Tech. I did a good enough job and impressed enough people the team was willing to pick me up full time.
However, I would warn the OP that the most important thing is to start building a portfolio of reliablity. Temping/contracting can be demeaning- you ABSOLUTELY are a second class citizen on the teams. You will be assigned the least strategic work, because if it was strategic they would have an FTE do it. The key thing is to push through and build up a basis of trust- you can do whatever is needed, when it is needed, even if its not what you wanted, and do so in a way that people enjoy being around you.
However, I would warn the OP that the most important thing is to start building a portfolio of reliablity. Temping/contracting can be demeaning- you ABSOLUTELY are a second class citizen on the teams. You will be assigned the least strategic work, because if it was strategic they would have an FTE do it. The key thing is to push through and build up a basis of trust- you can do whatever is needed, when it is needed, even if its not what you wanted, and do so in a way that people enjoy being around you.
>building a portfolio of reliablity
That sounds excessively intimidating.
The issue is that if you haven't had a job in a couple months, you can get tagged as unemployable. There's no point in telling people what you did six months ago if they are going to assume that you can't do anything (that you're not doing at the moment).
All you have to do to get past that is subordinate everything else to being employed for the moment. It's a lesson in prioritization. You can get on the treadmill nearly as fast as you got off of it. At least if you think 6 months to a year is reasonable speed.
That sounds excessively intimidating.
The issue is that if you haven't had a job in a couple months, you can get tagged as unemployable. There's no point in telling people what you did six months ago if they are going to assume that you can't do anything (that you're not doing at the moment).
All you have to do to get past that is subordinate everything else to being employed for the moment. It's a lesson in prioritization. You can get on the treadmill nearly as fast as you got off of it. At least if you think 6 months to a year is reasonable speed.
Joining the military might be an option for you if you're not ideologically opposed to it. Try air force, then navy. Not marines or army.
If you're halfway intelligent with technical skills you will find something to do for four years, then you'll have better options when you get out.
Probably better than being homeless.
If you're halfway intelligent with technical skills you will find something to do for four years, then you'll have better options when you get out.
Probably better than being homeless.
Maybe read this book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influen...
Everyone has said this a bunch already, but it's painfully obvious that your recruiters don't like you for some reason. Try reading that book, or some other self help book to try and game the interview (or maybe actually improve your social skills).
And also try to get honest advice from a friend or stranger. The problem might be something obvious and easy to fix that we can't possibly see over the internet. Like maybe you smell bad, or your haircut is weird, or your clothes are unprofessional. It'll probably be extremely awkward, but it will be worth it if it helps you get that job you want.
Everyone has said this a bunch already, but it's painfully obvious that your recruiters don't like you for some reason. Try reading that book, or some other self help book to try and game the interview (or maybe actually improve your social skills).
And also try to get honest advice from a friend or stranger. The problem might be something obvious and easy to fix that we can't possibly see over the internet. Like maybe you smell bad, or your haircut is weird, or your clothes are unprofessional. It'll probably be extremely awkward, but it will be worth it if it helps you get that job you want.
I read a bit of the responses here: some sadly very judgemental but I have also read OP’s responses.
I think seeing a therapist is a great idea given your difficult upbringing. However try to see someone who will help you improve on your professional presentation skills. Unfortunately this stuff matters a lot during interviews.
I mean someone who will candidly give you feedback on how you dress, communicate, your personal hygiene, language used etc.
Also, you have a powerful story of intellectual achievement.
I’d start reaching out to individuals on LinkedIn with a VERY SUCCINCT AND HIGHLY RELEVANT TO THEM message on why they should consider your for a position.
If you have references that can vouch for you this will go a LONG way. You mentioned IBM, anyone in there of some professional stature that could say: “yeah this is a good person to work with”?
I think seeing a therapist is a great idea given your difficult upbringing. However try to see someone who will help you improve on your professional presentation skills. Unfortunately this stuff matters a lot during interviews.
I mean someone who will candidly give you feedback on how you dress, communicate, your personal hygiene, language used etc.
Also, you have a powerful story of intellectual achievement.
I’d start reaching out to individuals on LinkedIn with a VERY SUCCINCT AND HIGHLY RELEVANT TO THEM message on why they should consider your for a position.
If you have references that can vouch for you this will go a LONG way. You mentioned IBM, anyone in there of some professional stature that could say: “yeah this is a good person to work with”?
I have some former co-workers, and some senior executive folks that could write letter of recommendations vouching that I'm competent etc. I used to have long hair which I've cut. I think that I dress farily ok. I have a brooks brother suit, levi jeans, some decent t-shirts etc.
Seeing a therapist could be highly costly and out of reach for OP.
Companies care a lot about perseverance and track record. You should stay at jobs for at least 2 years. Also, leaving college as a freshman does not look good; that is an inadequate education for tech. You are not going to get a good job with so little education (there are rare exceptions but you don't sound like one). If you need a cheap school, do that. I have a computer science degree from a cheap state school and I have worked at the best and biggest companies. You have to stop making excuses and stop focusing on being rejected. Focus on doing the work of preparation. Get busy. You can do it. IMHO you will never get a good tech job with so little education -- go back to school and get loans. Also I got a good internship from one of my professor's.
Go find and MSP where they can help you hone your skills.. You may still start out hourly but usually with benefits and you will be able to hone your skills and have people mentor you.
The QA on Apex, that's just churn and burn contract work to play a game and fill in some surveys and do this/do that...
IBM? Sounds like you were a contractor... i would have stuck that out - IBM often graduates contractors to FTE's and IBM will often pay for your school too.
If there are no managed services providers or no rackspace type companies around, find a contracting agency that does IT work - and do the same, show you can read a manual, do a job and start growing, building a rapport and getting some work under your belt.
But whatever you do, don't be a hacker, be an employee. They pay you to do what you were hired to do.
The QA on Apex, that's just churn and burn contract work to play a game and fill in some surveys and do this/do that...
IBM? Sounds like you were a contractor... i would have stuck that out - IBM often graduates contractors to FTE's and IBM will often pay for your school too.
If there are no managed services providers or no rackspace type companies around, find a contracting agency that does IT work - and do the same, show you can read a manual, do a job and start growing, building a rapport and getting some work under your belt.
But whatever you do, don't be a hacker, be an employee. They pay you to do what you were hired to do.
One thing that helps is to think of tech change in waves. Once the tide shifts on a technology it’s all downhill.. position where the good surfing waves are and life is easier.
You seem to have a passion for security, that’s a very specific mental framing that makes you suitable for some takes (tech security), and maybe terrible at others (holding open loving spaces for people grieving loss), but I could be wrong.
Consider the newly growing field of Cyber Securtity, with a short course right now you can be very desired by many companies.. even if you start by offering to look over their systems and help them work out a plan around their cybersecuirty.
Case in point; there are so many medium sized companies that even could just use a password manager to be setup across their network as an example.
You seem to have a passion for security, that’s a very specific mental framing that makes you suitable for some takes (tech security), and maybe terrible at others (holding open loving spaces for people grieving loss), but I could be wrong.
Consider the newly growing field of Cyber Securtity, with a short course right now you can be very desired by many companies.. even if you start by offering to look over their systems and help them work out a plan around their cybersecuirty.
Case in point; there are so many medium sized companies that even could just use a password manager to be setup across their network as an example.
[deleted]
0) Google, FB and other bigtech are extremely competitive, they get 100s of resumes per each opening. Without strong referral / top college graduation / significant exp (AND great interviewing skills) it's like lottery ticket. Even with all that it's a lottery. Bigtech hiring is foremost about avoiding wrong hires, hence ultra conservative. Try something from a bit lower league first.
1) Work on your writing skills. The post you wrote is not very clear in some places.
2) Remember to curate your CV/resume/story to each job to not appear underqualified/ overqualified/ having irrelevant skills/exp.
Show that you care about THIS particular job, not ANY job. Do a bit of research on each company and get ready to tell why X is best company for you.
1) Work on your writing skills. The post you wrote is not very clear in some places.
2) Remember to curate your CV/resume/story to each job to not appear underqualified/ overqualified/ having irrelevant skills/exp.
Show that you care about THIS particular job, not ANY job. Do a bit of research on each company and get ready to tell why X is best company for you.
Also skipping your manager and going straight to VPs when you're a new employee sounds like a risky move in many places.
I'm assuming you're in the US.
Pay attention to the news. One thing I see are articles pointing out that certain industries have a LOT of trouble hiring, yet we have high unemployment. I distinctly remember that the US manufacturing industry is having a lot of trouble hiring.
Target those industries.
Pay attention to the news. One thing I see are articles pointing out that certain industries have a LOT of trouble hiring, yet we have high unemployment. I distinctly remember that the US manufacturing industry is having a lot of trouble hiring.
Target those industries.
Sounds like you’re firing on all fronts.
What’s your goal/objective? Pick an industry find their association and make inroads.
If you didn’t land a FAANG out of college you’re going to have the hustle at SMEs and build a resume that shows consistency in the following: - you showed up - you got things done (be wary of hanging your hat on that one thing you did back in xxxx).
But if it’s just healthcare, HomeDepot/CostCo may be a good bet. Even if you hustle at a place like that and make manager you can make enough to take care of a family.
Also I’d lose the victim and woes-is-you cuz big corporate isn’t noticing you -‘tude.
At the end of the day your job will be to make someone else’s life easier, if you figure out who and can speak to how in an interview, chances are you’ll get the job.
What’s your goal/objective? Pick an industry find their association and make inroads.
If you didn’t land a FAANG out of college you’re going to have the hustle at SMEs and build a resume that shows consistency in the following: - you showed up - you got things done (be wary of hanging your hat on that one thing you did back in xxxx).
But if it’s just healthcare, HomeDepot/CostCo may be a good bet. Even if you hustle at a place like that and make manager you can make enough to take care of a family.
Also I’d lose the victim and woes-is-you cuz big corporate isn’t noticing you -‘tude.
At the end of the day your job will be to make someone else’s life easier, if you figure out who and can speak to how in an interview, chances are you’ll get the job.
Network. It's never about what you know, always about who you know. Everyone likes to pretend it's a techy meritocracy, but it totally isn't. There isn't a dev shop on the planet that hires purely on technical skill and ignores all the social factors.
The valid method of bypassing the contact whitelist is to have someone who works at the company (or knows the hiring manager socially) recommend you.
Turn up to meetups, tech events, anything where the people you want to work with hang out. Make friends. Buy a few beers. Volunteer for stuff.
If you're an introvert and don't do this easily then try contributing to a FOSS project and getting invited into their comms channels. Again, make friends.
Sorry, this sucks I know. But it's how humans are.
The valid method of bypassing the contact whitelist is to have someone who works at the company (or knows the hiring manager socially) recommend you.
Turn up to meetups, tech events, anything where the people you want to work with hang out. Make friends. Buy a few beers. Volunteer for stuff.
If you're an introvert and don't do this easily then try contributing to a FOSS project and getting invited into their comms channels. Again, make friends.
Sorry, this sucks I know. But it's how humans are.
snakedoctor, you have borderline traits and should try to work with a therapist to gain insight into the dissonance between how you see yourself and how others see you. It is not realistic for you to achieve your goals without working on your mental health first.
One more simple thing - please maintain a reasonable Linkedin profile and build some basic network there. Even if you avoid Facebook, Twitter and all other social networks - not having a Linkedin profile means taking on a big handicap while job hunting.
About security: It is NOT your responsibility to decide if things get fixed or not if you are not responsible for.
It is your responsibility to tell your manager (responsible person) what you found and what the impact is.
the responsible person will take the risk and risk assessment.
It is your responsibility to tell your manager (responsible person) what you found and what the impact is.
the responsible person will take the risk and risk assessment.
What are you like as a person? How do you present yourself in these meetings? What kind of values do you exude? Do you first listen and try to deeply understand the interviewer and what they're looking for – or do you nervously fill every void in the conversation with something? Your resumé definitely is important, but once you are face to face with someone; how do you employ charm? It might come off as a fad but https://dansilvestre.com/how-to-win-friends-and-influence-pe... (summary of the book) might be of help. Good luck!
How much actual paid work experience do you have? The pattern of quits of jobs/school isn’t attractive to most hiring entities, but if you’ve got enough experience and/or education, and you can mostly use enough of the former to substitute for the latter) to meet classification entry requirements, local or state civil service coding positions can be more tolerant of nontraditional work history than elite private and the most sensitive federal agencies, which seems to be where you've focussed.
By industry standards, pay sucks but benefits like health/dental are quite good in many cases (depends on particular state or locality.)
By industry standards, pay sucks but benefits like health/dental are quite good in many cases (depends on particular state or locality.)
A lot of the jobs that you've stated you are applying for having notoriously difficult hiring processes. With your background and personality they might not be a good fit for you at least not yet.
I would recommend looking for smaller local startups or a company that has an entry level position and staying with them for a couple years to get more experience.
As a note on interviewing no one wants to hear a lot of negativity. When describing bad situations try not to throw dirt. It just makes you look dirty. Try to state everything in a positive way so that your image is not tainted by the negativity of what might have very well been a bad situation.
Good luck!
I would recommend looking for smaller local startups or a company that has an entry level position and staying with them for a couple years to get more experience.
As a note on interviewing no one wants to hear a lot of negativity. When describing bad situations try not to throw dirt. It just makes you look dirty. Try to state everything in a positive way so that your image is not tainted by the negativity of what might have very well been a bad situation.
Good luck!
Have you tried applying to research universities as a developer or IT technician? They typically offer good benefits, health insurance, but are much lower on the pay scale than FAANGs or startups and may have a lower entry bar.
I've interviewed quite a few people at 2 FAANGs and other places. If you really don't know what went wrong with your technical interviews, we can try to have a mock coding interview over Zoom using collabedit, and I'll give you my candid feedback.
To clarify, I can't hire you for anything, this won't have anything to do with my employer, nor am I promising that this will help you in any way.
I've interviewed quite a few people at 2 FAANGs and other places. If you really don't know what went wrong with your technical interviews, we can try to have a mock coding interview over Zoom using collabedit, and I'll give you my candid feedback.
To clarify, I can't hire you for anything, this won't have anything to do with my employer, nor am I promising that this will help you in any way.
Strangely, the thing that jumped out at me was "Have to delete your emails constantly due to only having 1gb email space". What's going on there that you're having to juggle keeping stuff in a 1GB limit?
You are not unsuitable you have high negative emotions and low social skills. It would actually do you good to go learn to be an entrepreneur rather than looking for a job. Give you a hint you are looking in the wrong places. Your obviously high in iq. To be frank your best opportunity is presenting itself to you. Pick up the torch of the provider and go hunt for your meal. Go do something in sales and learn the soft skills necessary for a successful life.
Good luck and God bless I'm sorry you have found yourself in a position where you are so afraid.
To get real your mindset is the real reason you are in the position you are.
Bless
Good luck and God bless I'm sorry you have found yourself in a position where you are so afraid.
To get real your mindset is the real reason you are in the position you are.
Bless
These are all huge companies, their hiring practices are optimised for scale, they are reduced to viewing you through a crude lens of metrics.
Don't play this game if it's not coming easy to you, they just don't have time for people not easily fitting their metrics. You can get a lot more job satisfaction working for small companies and from a hiring perspective they tend to be more informal, really trying to figure out if you are a reasonable person and have potential because that is what's important to them, not appeasing upper management by box ticking a due diligence form.
Don't play this game if it's not coming easy to you, they just don't have time for people not easily fitting their metrics. You can get a lot more job satisfaction working for small companies and from a hiring perspective they tend to be more informal, really trying to figure out if you are a reasonable person and have potential because that is what's important to them, not appeasing upper management by box ticking a due diligence form.
> Reading Meyers, Knuth etc. books.
I assume you are reading these books to get better at coding.
Reading books is a great start, but the only way to become good at writing code is to actually start writing code.
Reading is the theory, writing is the practice.
I assume you are reading these books to get better at coding.
Reading books is a great start, but the only way to become good at writing code is to actually start writing code.
Reading is the theory, writing is the practice.
Stop worrying about a job and start worrying about skills.
The great thing about software is that you don’t need permission (a job) to make impact and to build skills.
Build something or contribute to open source.
If I were staring my career over and had trouble getting a software job I would get any job I could to sustain life -ex busing tables. Then I would spend all of my nights and weekends working on open source or building things publicly.
If you spend the next year doing open source contributions for 30+ hours a week I can pretty much guarantee that you will have a job.
It will be hard sure. But this is the way.
Develop skills and the jobs will come.
The great thing about software is that you don’t need permission (a job) to make impact and to build skills.
Build something or contribute to open source.
If I were staring my career over and had trouble getting a software job I would get any job I could to sustain life -ex busing tables. Then I would spend all of my nights and weekends working on open source or building things publicly.
If you spend the next year doing open source contributions for 30+ hours a week I can pretty much guarantee that you will have a job.
It will be hard sure. But this is the way.
Develop skills and the jobs will come.
This is an easy one. You don't have a degree, and that means the types of jobs that will take you are the types of jobs that don't require one (like customer support or retail). Most tech jobs will throw your resume in the trash without a Bachelor's degree.
I would pursue at the very least a 2-year associate's degree from a community college as a starting point, and try to find a way to get a bachelor's degree. You might be able to go online, transfer credits from a community college, or find a night school at your local state university.
I would pursue at the very least a 2-year associate's degree from a community college as a starting point, and try to find a way to get a bachelor's degree. You might be able to go online, transfer credits from a community college, or find a night school at your local state university.
I'm in my early 40s. One of the best things I've done for myself over the last 20+ years is to lower my expectations for how responsive the world is and will be to my wants/desires/needs. It's a super fine tight-rope-walking line between having low expectations in some general sense vs assuming I need to be the agent in charge of my particular pursuit of happiness but this has been an exceptional way for me to approach the world. Best of luck. There's an arse for every seat. You will find something.
Your message reminds me of myself at your age. I took a long time to learn to be humble to see my flaws, which allowed others to appreciate my strengths. Keep hustling, but hustle with more empathy
As someone who hires and also coaches people into entry level positions, your story is not unique.
You asked a simple question: “how can an unhireable person get a job?”
Answer: You can’t get a job because you have given yourself the label unhireable. Period.
Everything in your post builds and reinforces the story you’ve been telling yourself for a long time. You are putting most of your energy into explaining why things aren’t working out for you.
Until you drop that story, no amount of advice will help you.
If there is a part of you that can recognize the truth in this, you have a chance to rewrite your story.
You asked a simple question: “how can an unhireable person get a job?”
Answer: You can’t get a job because you have given yourself the label unhireable. Period.
Everything in your post builds and reinforces the story you’ve been telling yourself for a long time. You are putting most of your energy into explaining why things aren’t working out for you.
Until you drop that story, no amount of advice will help you.
If there is a part of you that can recognize the truth in this, you have a chance to rewrite your story.
I mean, if his goal was to solicit a bunch of advice and (with the attention this post has received, perhaps even a job) from people hooked by the idea of someone being unhirable, and then motivated to correct him.. it worked pretty well.
[deleted]
I'm assuming you're trying to get an engineering job but its a bit unclear?
I think what a lot of people miss about engineering jobs is that the first job is definitely hard, partly because people are giving you a bunch of money to do something that is difficult to quantify that may or may not make their business. Apply everywhere and be very ready to take the first job.
If you want to get a big tech engineering job, you need a couple of months of getting good at leet code so try to figure out a way to get that.
OHP is way better than medicaid if you can snag it.
I think what a lot of people miss about engineering jobs is that the first job is definitely hard, partly because people are giving you a bunch of money to do something that is difficult to quantify that may or may not make their business. Apply everywhere and be very ready to take the first job.
If you want to get a big tech engineering job, you need a couple of months of getting good at leet code so try to figure out a way to get that.
OHP is way better than medicaid if you can snag it.
I google'd OHP and Oregon Health Plan was the first thing that popped up. It seems like only people living in the state of oregon qualify for OHP. I currently live in the southern united states. I've used interviewcake, and looked at leetcode problems etc.. to prepare for dev interviews.
There are already some excellent responses here.
I get the sense that you are still trying to figure out what role is ideally suited for you, is that correct?
If that's true, here's an out-of-the-box idea.. Why not get a job as a recruiter?
Assuming it pays insurance, it might give you a chance to stabilize your expenses, learn about what tech companies look for, and how they operate. You'll also build a network by helping others get jobs.
In your spare time you can work on a few open-source projects that demonstrate your competence as a developer, if that's what you want.
Good luck!
I get the sense that you are still trying to figure out what role is ideally suited for you, is that correct?
If that's true, here's an out-of-the-box idea.. Why not get a job as a recruiter?
Assuming it pays insurance, it might give you a chance to stabilize your expenses, learn about what tech companies look for, and how they operate. You'll also build a network by helping others get jobs.
In your spare time you can work on a few open-source projects that demonstrate your competence as a developer, if that's what you want.
Good luck!
> I’m scared and I don’t know what to do.
I’m sorry. That really sucks.
It sounds like you could really do with some coaching.
I’m not the right person for that but perhaps if you asked for it, a better person would reach out!
heres some questions I would ask to gauge your interpersonal skills at an interview.
could you tell me about the last argument you had and how you resolved it?
where would you like to be in 5 years?
you had a strong opinion about a strategy for solving a problem and disagreed vehemently with a co-worked. it turns out, their strategy worked out great. what would you do next?
I’m sorry. That really sucks.
It sounds like you could really do with some coaching.
I’m not the right person for that but perhaps if you asked for it, a better person would reach out!
heres some questions I would ask to gauge your interpersonal skills at an interview.
could you tell me about the last argument you had and how you resolved it?
where would you like to be in 5 years?
you had a strong opinion about a strategy for solving a problem and disagreed vehemently with a co-worked. it turns out, their strategy worked out great. what would you do next?
Have you tried consulting shops ? They can be hard and inhumane, but they take anyone then sell you in batches to big clients, you can then build up a bit of resellable skills.
If you like hacking or more importantly pen testing..Start with bug bounties..will take time but if you get some bounties you get money a well solid proof that you have skills.
I have a general question related to OP's situation:
How do you make a resume look better when you have many short stints on it?
I'm 30 and my average time to keep a job is less than 6 months. I always get overwhelmed and quit. When I start a new job I promise myself I will stick it out for just one year, but usually I'm white knuckling it within 3 months. I've been to doctors and therapists and have a clean bill of health. How do you develop grit and "sticktoitivness"?
How do you make a resume look better when you have many short stints on it?
I'm 30 and my average time to keep a job is less than 6 months. I always get overwhelmed and quit. When I start a new job I promise myself I will stick it out for just one year, but usually I'm white knuckling it within 3 months. I've been to doctors and therapists and have a clean bill of health. How do you develop grit and "sticktoitivness"?
Do you have anywhere you can do interview practice? Somewhere you can get honest feedback? It's possible you are sending of bad vibes. Impossible to say from just reading your post. But if you for some reason can't get a break despite an impressive track record and go-getter attitude, it's worth evaluating whether it's a personality deficit. If the person across the table feels uncomfortable with your, that can be a dealbreaker.
What immediately stands out here is that you apply for companies that are extremely competitive. Maybe try to go for non-FAANG-style companies first.
There's plenty of work in the software field. An income is better than no income. Admittedly, my perspective is European, so I'm not sure just how bad health/dental etc actually is when working for 'regular companies' but I imagine it can't be that bad for any SWE role?
There's plenty of work in the software field. An income is better than no income. Admittedly, my perspective is European, so I'm not sure just how bad health/dental etc actually is when working for 'regular companies' but I imagine it can't be that bad for any SWE role?
Based on your cyber security background, I'd suggest you to take a look into the DeFi space and crypto related jobs. There's a big incentive at the moment for finding holes before others do, there are bounties programs, some projects are hiring, and so on.
Edit: I think that the whole "anonymous team" and "decentralized" thing could help you in your case. Can't check on someone you don't even know the name.
Edit: I think that the whole "anonymous team" and "decentralized" thing could help you in your case. Can't check on someone you don't even know the name.
There are lots and lots of jobs that have health and dental. Most of them are not at FAANG or Palantir or the NSA or the CIA.... My recommendation is to find a job, any job, that serves your purposes and commit to staying for at least 2 years to start changing your narrative. As an example, getting a tech-support role at a localized IT/MSP should take you about 5 minutes if you are as technically sound as you profess.
Since you have an FSF member address, you might be interested in working on Free Software and Open Source projects, some resources:
https://www.fossjobs.net/ https://github.com/fossjobs/fossjobs/wiki/resources
https://www.fossjobs.net/ https://github.com/fossjobs/fossjobs/wiki/resources
If you're even getting interviews with top companies that's a good sign.
Getting ghosted is common, don't worry about that, it's not personal.
Work with a recruiter to get some feedback, you seem intelligent, so this may be an issue with socialization or disagreeableness or something like that, which is a common trait people are judged for, but wherein there might be specific industries or professions that are more suited.
And don't give up.
Getting ghosted is common, don't worry about that, it's not personal.
Work with a recruiter to get some feedback, you seem intelligent, so this may be an issue with socialization or disagreeableness or something like that, which is a common trait people are judged for, but wherein there might be specific industries or professions that are more suited.
And don't give up.
[deleted]
Throwaway so this can’t be linked to my professional persona.
In this specific paragraph I would usually provide my work history to back what I’m saying I can’t however so you need to put a bit of trust that I’m a specialist at hiring people to different tech jobs. If you don’t, well, your call.
Based on those few short paragraphs I can see many flaws with your character and our interview would probably be very short even if you’d be able to _cheat_ your way in - as I don’t believe that your entry information isn’t oversweetened to the point of puke.
So from hi - Paper takes everything, deep background check is usually far after interview. You can write anything there. If it’s plausible we can talk. - Contrary to what some people here say, tech interviews aren’t reward in their own. It’s not random chance to get 1/500. Multi-staged mixed-interviewers are here for a reason. One person can make mistake. 5 people reviewing same person will find almost everything - You’re desperate. Desperate people aren’t good specialists. - When joining organization one of the most important questions is whether you can align. If you can’t, you’re out. - Even in your description you’re pulling out the big guns - you name Google, Facebook, Dell, NSA, CIA and then you’re a dropout who worked for a Amazon customer support role. Lot of smoke but no fire.
There is (obviously) not a lot in your description. Probably resume would be in place and most likely you’re presenting yourself from the best side which still has a lot of glaring issues.
Anyway, on to the road to the solution. You need to get character assessment and possibly even therapy. My guess is you’re exhibiting toxic behavior and if I’m correct it’s very possible you’re not aware about it.
I believe that your road to FAANG is burned down already, it’s not that surprising that you haven’t tried to work for smaller companies as your post screams “I’m the best and deserve the best” which is yet another sign that something is wrong with your character.
Place where I work provides detailed feedback for rejected candidates. I know that at least some of the FAANG provides detailed feedback too. If you haven’t received one it means it was decided that you’re toxic/troublemaker/straight liar and any interaction with you is not only cost but also might start a process no one wants to handle.
Fix yourself and you’ll get a job.
In this specific paragraph I would usually provide my work history to back what I’m saying I can’t however so you need to put a bit of trust that I’m a specialist at hiring people to different tech jobs. If you don’t, well, your call.
Based on those few short paragraphs I can see many flaws with your character and our interview would probably be very short even if you’d be able to _cheat_ your way in - as I don’t believe that your entry information isn’t oversweetened to the point of puke.
So from hi - Paper takes everything, deep background check is usually far after interview. You can write anything there. If it’s plausible we can talk. - Contrary to what some people here say, tech interviews aren’t reward in their own. It’s not random chance to get 1/500. Multi-staged mixed-interviewers are here for a reason. One person can make mistake. 5 people reviewing same person will find almost everything - You’re desperate. Desperate people aren’t good specialists. - When joining organization one of the most important questions is whether you can align. If you can’t, you’re out. - Even in your description you’re pulling out the big guns - you name Google, Facebook, Dell, NSA, CIA and then you’re a dropout who worked for a Amazon customer support role. Lot of smoke but no fire.
There is (obviously) not a lot in your description. Probably resume would be in place and most likely you’re presenting yourself from the best side which still has a lot of glaring issues.
Anyway, on to the road to the solution. You need to get character assessment and possibly even therapy. My guess is you’re exhibiting toxic behavior and if I’m correct it’s very possible you’re not aware about it.
I believe that your road to FAANG is burned down already, it’s not that surprising that you haven’t tried to work for smaller companies as your post screams “I’m the best and deserve the best” which is yet another sign that something is wrong with your character.
Place where I work provides detailed feedback for rejected candidates. I know that at least some of the FAANG provides detailed feedback too. If you haven’t received one it means it was decided that you’re toxic/troublemaker/straight liar and any interaction with you is not only cost but also might start a process no one wants to handle.
Fix yourself and you’ll get a job.
Contribute to a significant Open Source project. Many contributors to the D programming language project have leveraged that resume into well-paid jobs.
Seems like not finishing college is holding you back. I concur with some of the other comments about joining the military to help pay your way through college, unless there is a pre-existing condition that may disqualify you. Becoming a sensor specialist, a weapons specialist, an engineer or a doctor with the military will pay high dividends. You will remain employable most of your working life.
Everything you’ve written makes you sound slightly deluded about your chances or your life atm. I think you might need a therapist.
Try checking your local library for a career center -- I work for a career center locally and we do career coaching, mock interviews, and will review your resume and cover letter. Maybe your local library has the same, and can give you some one-on-one coaching and help with your job search, at least better than strangers on the internet can.
My 2 cents and honest opinion. Don't give up too easily. Why did you quit IBM without another offer? You had a job though with low pay. Getting you step on the door is the hardest part. Don't give up after that. Try to get any job for that matter and I can assure you persevering will pay off. I'm talking from my experience
My 2 cents and honest opinion. Don't give up too easily. Why did you quit IBM without another offer? You had a job though with low pay. Getting you step on the door is the hardest part. Don't give up after that. Try to get any job for that matter and I can assure you persevering will pay off. I'm talking from my experiance
What are your qualifications and skills?
Can you code?
What roles did you apply for?
Did you reach out to any recruiters? Some recruiters will help you with your resume.
You need a coach with an understanding of the tech world. Someone to tell you what’s wrong with you.
Maybe you come off as creepy, intense, stupid, spacey, who knows. Either way, people seem to fail you on the question “do I want to work with this person?”
Can you code?
What roles did you apply for?
Did you reach out to any recruiters? Some recruiters will help you with your resume.
You need a coach with an understanding of the tech world. Someone to tell you what’s wrong with you.
Maybe you come off as creepy, intense, stupid, spacey, who knows. Either way, people seem to fail you on the question “do I want to work with this person?”
Not sure if this helps, but we have a saying in Jiu Jitsu that a black belt is a white belt who never quit. Hang in there, and don’t be afraid to punch outside your weight class in tech - there are a million people out there who have problems, you just need to convince one of them that you’re the guy who can solve their problems.
osssss
You need a portfolio of whatever it is you can do. I think both long and short term someone like yourself should probably work for themselves. Try contracting, build public facing apps, a public repo, etc to show what you can do so that people are so convinced they can overlook your more challenging attitude/personality.
Yo i sympathise OP! I think most people in this thread are being dicks. The job market is ruthless at the moment. Interviewing when you don't have a perfectly linear story is the worst. I typically have to go:
"yup, i'm a college dropout, i had a 2 year span were i was pretty depressed and did next to nothing, then i worked at a gas station for a while in my early twenties etc etc"
It's difficult to convince anybody that you are an amazing hire after having admitted to a history of professional failure. I think it was just dumbluck I found my current job. My approach was to be fully honest and transparent, admit to being a bit of a fuckup, but i tried to frame it like it's actually a good thing, because im driven by those failures. I found when I tried to hide the interview typically went worse.
I think it sounds like you are an ace engineer, working for IBM at 18 and supplying patches to GNU projects. Thats amazing. You're probably a better engineer than most people in this thread calling you socially inept or gatekeeping the SWE roles. The job market is ruthless, so your frustration is completely justified. Here hoping you'll manage to turn your situation around!
I think it sounds like you are an ace engineer, working for IBM at 18 and supplying patches to GNU projects. Thats amazing. You're probably a better engineer than most people in this thread calling you socially inept or gatekeeping the SWE roles. The job market is ruthless, so your frustration is completely justified. Here hoping you'll manage to turn your situation around!
I’ll email you in a moment, but I’ll share this here for everyone to see:
- develop marketable skills
- go where the money is
- work your ass off
- sell the absolute best version of yourself
- when you have a job, focus on how to get a better job
- don’t prioritize pleasing people, rather make people realize their success depends on yours
- “Don’t lose that cool of yours. That’s your meal ticket.” - Dominic Toretto, The Fast & The Furious
- develop marketable skills
- go where the money is
- work your ass off
- sell the absolute best version of yourself
- when you have a job, focus on how to get a better job
- don’t prioritize pleasing people, rather make people realize their success depends on yours
- “Don’t lose that cool of yours. That’s your meal ticket.” - Dominic Toretto, The Fast & The Furious
> Spoofed number to bypass contact whitelist etc
Hum, what?
Hum, what?
I suggest for anyone, going to:
https://www.latterdaysaintjobs.org/ers/ct/?lang=eng
...and learning from the site and them in person, asking them for feedback, and doing whatever they say. (There are other very good resources on various topics for life etc.)
Not only diligence, but also honesty and kindness (treating others the way one would want to be treated), and observing people to learn what works and doesn't go a long way.
And it is not always popular to say but is true: you are a child of God, with infinite potential. His commandments (the 10 are a decent start) are given for our benefit, to help us reach our potential. We might not always understand why -- but like guardrails or safety stripes on a highway, they really do matter. If you ask Him sincerely for help, intending to do what you learn is the right thing, He can help.
Don't ever, ever, give up on yourself, humanity, or those things. Life is worth it! Hard things can help us grow. You matter and are worthwhile.
I have wondered, while trying to recover from my own non-employment for health reasons, if places like upwork (and similar--search HN for discussions) are useful for ad-hoc p/t technical work while coming back. If you or anyone learns more about that, I'm curious for possible future.
Edits/additions: Avoid anything addicting -- it will cloud your judgement at important times, and when they are, you might not predict. There are also good resources for this.
I like another post here about empathy, and another on taking lower-paying (honest) jobs as better than nothing, sticking with them while looking elsewhere or working more on educational goals. Sometimes that certificate or degree means to people that you can be trusted to stick with something, and that might help you. Some you can do part-time online, or maybe in spurts for relatively very low cost are WGU (especially/maybe(?) if you study in advance and do many courses in one semester!--worked well for someone I know and others in HN discussions), at wikipedia) or at BYU Pathway Worldwide--good online school with lower tuition and a built-in support system for helping you stick to it.
And: In that URL I provided above, they will provide interview coaching, etc. Many things, all free and without obligation. The volunteers are often (usually? always?) kindly retired people.
...and learning from the site and them in person, asking them for feedback, and doing whatever they say. (There are other very good resources on various topics for life etc.)
Not only diligence, but also honesty and kindness (treating others the way one would want to be treated), and observing people to learn what works and doesn't go a long way.
And it is not always popular to say but is true: you are a child of God, with infinite potential. His commandments (the 10 are a decent start) are given for our benefit, to help us reach our potential. We might not always understand why -- but like guardrails or safety stripes on a highway, they really do matter. If you ask Him sincerely for help, intending to do what you learn is the right thing, He can help.
Don't ever, ever, give up on yourself, humanity, or those things. Life is worth it! Hard things can help us grow. You matter and are worthwhile.
I have wondered, while trying to recover from my own non-employment for health reasons, if places like upwork (and similar--search HN for discussions) are useful for ad-hoc p/t technical work while coming back. If you or anyone learns more about that, I'm curious for possible future.
Edits/additions: Avoid anything addicting -- it will cloud your judgement at important times, and when they are, you might not predict. There are also good resources for this.
I like another post here about empathy, and another on taking lower-paying (honest) jobs as better than nothing, sticking with them while looking elsewhere or working more on educational goals. Sometimes that certificate or degree means to people that you can be trusted to stick with something, and that might help you. Some you can do part-time online, or maybe in spurts for relatively very low cost are WGU (especially/maybe(?) if you study in advance and do many courses in one semester!--worked well for someone I know and others in HN discussions), at wikipedia) or at BYU Pathway Worldwide--good online school with lower tuition and a built-in support system for helping you stick to it.
And: In that URL I provided above, they will provide interview coaching, etc. Many things, all free and without obligation. The volunteers are often (usually? always?) kindly retired people.
Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
That’s done some numbers on artists’ potentials.
That’s done some numbers on artists’ potentials.
Maybe, I am not the authority but maybe, it was meant specifically about worship.
Edits: Thanks for your comment.
If memory serves, they were also commanded to do at least some high-skill work (were there some figures in there?--would have to review) on the tabernacle, ark, and subsequent temple. But for people who are in a life situation with long-term high risk of and exposure/temptation to idol-worship and accompanying destructive behaviors, it seems reasonable to me, to very carefully avoid that.
Maybe what we love most defines our outcomes until we learn better. But again, I am not the authority.
Edits: Thanks for your comment.
If memory serves, they were also commanded to do at least some high-skill work (were there some figures in there?--would have to review) on the tabernacle, ark, and subsequent temple. But for people who are in a life situation with long-term high risk of and exposure/temptation to idol-worship and accompanying destructive behaviors, it seems reasonable to me, to very carefully avoid that.
Maybe what we love most defines our outcomes until we learn better. But again, I am not the authority.
You sound really smart although dropping out makes it harder to get hired. Perhaps, consider starting a company?
First you should remove "unhireable" from your post and mind...
I'd suggest you apply to small tech company (maybe 2 or 3 people) which doesn't have HR, then stick for years. Accept that most work are boring and doesn't need serious thinking, and spend more times on other non-tech things.
I'd suggest you apply to small tech company (maybe 2 or 3 people) which doesn't have HR, then stick for years. Accept that most work are boring and doesn't need serious thinking, and spend more times on other non-tech things.
You remind me of some of my friends. I think you might benefit from a little perspective—standard life narrative scripts (like: "get a job") might not be so helpful for you, for instance. Shoot me an email rot13(baylgjbpnacynlguvftnzr) at gmail and we can jump on a call sometime.
If you're getting to the interview stage and that's where things go wrong, go through a practice interview with a friend who can be honest and I think it will be obvious to them what's going on. I can't pinpoint it from this but it sounds like it could be behavioral.
You're simply aiming way too high. Those companies are all world renowned; most companies are not. Nice to have ambition, but it has to match reality, and evidently it doesn't. Apply to companies that aren't known beyond the city; work your way up from there.
Are you the guy who tried to apply for a job for Unfortunate Spaceman?
Terrible emails at: https://twitter.com/geoffkeene/status/1337634779559129088
Terrible emails at: https://twitter.com/geoffkeene/status/1337634779559129088
That was amazing. It left me wanting to read more emails from the Unfortunate Spaceman guy obliterating entitled assholes trying to beg.
You don't want to climb the ladder. What made you think you had a shot at all of those companies? One had a thing going at IBM/EA, you are much more hireable having a current job.
Unless you got an idea for the equivalent of a flamin hot cheetos, my advice is go climb it.
Unless you got an idea for the equivalent of a flamin hot cheetos, my advice is go climb it.
Even the cheetos guy was already employed by the company.
Practice learning what people want and then trying to help them get what they want.
People who are good at this have endless opportunity.
Read the go-giver and give and take.
Then practice it and be patient. It can take a year or two to see results but they will come, and compound over time if you stay consistent.
People who are good at this have endless opportunity.
Read the go-giver and give and take.
Then practice it and be patient. It can take a year or two to see results but they will come, and compound over time if you stay consistent.
Your local community college has a career center with someone who could give you more personalized, actionable advice than what you will get here.
You are right to ask for help, but you need it in person, and intensively until you've got a plan and got your feet back under you.
Good luck.
You are right to ask for help, but you need it in person, and intensively until you've got a plan and got your feet back under you.
Good luck.
Most probably you're unable to sell yourself? Did you think of making your own product? How about a platform where ppl like you share rejection stories? Who knows it get exploded?
Do you maintain a GitHub or public profile? How about running a YouTube channel?
Do you maintain a GitHub or public profile? How about running a YouTube channel?
One optimisation: dont write into your resume that you had many jobs and stopped. Similar for college. Eg only mention IBM and fill the rest with “freelancer” or “educational projects”.
The details depend on your specific resume and dates, though.
The details depend on your specific resume and dates, though.
You've gotten a lot of advice and there is something I'll reiterate. Don't aim so high. I eventually got to the level of being pursued by FAANGs, but it took many years of working at a "boring" software company and just gaining skills. Also, on your resume try to make it outcome focused. Don't say what you did, say what the impact was. Everybody "knows" c++, docker, <insert technology here>, but what was the impact of what you did? Why do you know those things in the first place? That helps a lot when just sending resumes around and not having a connection. Also, you are studying all these algorithm text books, but first of all lots of companies do not go beyond simple graph theory questions. That was my experience at Apple (though Apple is very different from those other companies). If you are going for a specialized role like embedded systems or a backend software network engineer, the focus will be on things like "how does an OS scheduler work" not, "solve a dynamic memory problem". Also truly understanding the language you choose to program in is very important. It becomes immediately obvious when people don't really understand their tools, especially if they choose C++ (that's been my experience at least). You're over optimizing on the algorithms and not focusing on just software engineering. I am extrapolating this from what you said in the first paragraph.
Also, something that hasn't been really stated (and I feel weird saying this), but try to be funny (self deprecating is the safest way to go) and easy to talk to in an interview. Even though we all try to think of software as some pure meritocracy based on raw technical skill, it really isn't primarily because the technical part of the job is generally easy for the majority of positions and its communication where things break down. If you seem unapproachable or difficult to work with, then people won't want to work with you. I am noticing that at my current employer "soft skills" and ability to work with a team are becoming a bigger part of the interview process. When I do technical interviews if I can't converse with a candidate about how they got to their solution or their difficulties, its a bigger red flag than whether or not they could solve the problem or not (unless its clear that they really don't know anything).
edit: Also you mentioned something about long hair. I have long hair (a bit past shoulder length now, but its been a longer). Its something I worried about too. Nobody cares is what I learned. What people care about is if you are well kept. you can be well kept with jeans and a t-shirt and long hair.
Also, something that hasn't been really stated (and I feel weird saying this), but try to be funny (self deprecating is the safest way to go) and easy to talk to in an interview. Even though we all try to think of software as some pure meritocracy based on raw technical skill, it really isn't primarily because the technical part of the job is generally easy for the majority of positions and its communication where things break down. If you seem unapproachable or difficult to work with, then people won't want to work with you. I am noticing that at my current employer "soft skills" and ability to work with a team are becoming a bigger part of the interview process. When I do technical interviews if I can't converse with a candidate about how they got to their solution or their difficulties, its a bigger red flag than whether or not they could solve the problem or not (unless its clear that they really don't know anything).
edit: Also you mentioned something about long hair. I have long hair (a bit past shoulder length now, but its been a longer). Its something I worried about too. Nobody cares is what I learned. What people care about is if you are well kept. you can be well kept with jeans and a t-shirt and long hair.
> I've interviewed at Google, Facebook, Dell, NSA, CIA, DoE (E=Energy), Airbnb, Palantir
Those are some pretty impressive names for places you've interviewed at, but they also have the highest bars to get in. Why not try just some average, run-of-the-mill companies off job sites? There's nothing embarrassing about starting at those. I worked for a no name exercise tracking app company my first job out of college, who later threw out all the work and became a diet tracking app.
Sometimes when I've been between jobs I've even grabbed some bottom of the barrel project work off remote contracting sites. If you can write clear English and are willing to work at 3rd world country rates, you can get infinite work there. It still pays enough to get health insurance through someone like Freelancer's Union.
> I tried improving my interview skills. Reading Meyers, Knuth etc. books
I don't think reading books helps with that. I'd recommend practicing interview problems on sites like LeetCode. I have a CS Master's degree and can easily write an A* pathfinding algorithm on a white board and give you the time complexity of any algorithm, but it's not super useful for the sort of interview stuff I get asked. Typically you are just asked to hammer out a design or implementation for some specific set of requirements that complies with some set of performance criteria, so it's not really book learning being tested. More just that you can you sit down and write the right code/design - which is what you'll be doing every day on a programming job outside meetings collecting those requirements and scheduling the work.
> dropped out my freshmen year at a top 40 college. Was on the cyber security team etc. too expensive so I had to dropout.
Lack of a degree would disqualify you from 95% of programming jobs I've worked at. I don't think it's important myself, but I'm not a hiring manager. The only person I saw hired without one had an amazing project portfolio with hit apps in the app store I would have trouble writing. So it can happen, but it's like being a star baseball player. Outside the reach of most people.
If you really want to be a full time, salaried programmer and don't have a star portfolio, or large bodies of open source code to show off, I think you'd have to take out a loan and get that piece of paper from college first. Project work, or work from contacts or friends at tech meetups, generally is less strict re that. But companies that don't know you are going to just filter you out for no degree.
Those are some pretty impressive names for places you've interviewed at, but they also have the highest bars to get in. Why not try just some average, run-of-the-mill companies off job sites? There's nothing embarrassing about starting at those. I worked for a no name exercise tracking app company my first job out of college, who later threw out all the work and became a diet tracking app.
Sometimes when I've been between jobs I've even grabbed some bottom of the barrel project work off remote contracting sites. If you can write clear English and are willing to work at 3rd world country rates, you can get infinite work there. It still pays enough to get health insurance through someone like Freelancer's Union.
> I tried improving my interview skills. Reading Meyers, Knuth etc. books
I don't think reading books helps with that. I'd recommend practicing interview problems on sites like LeetCode. I have a CS Master's degree and can easily write an A* pathfinding algorithm on a white board and give you the time complexity of any algorithm, but it's not super useful for the sort of interview stuff I get asked. Typically you are just asked to hammer out a design or implementation for some specific set of requirements that complies with some set of performance criteria, so it's not really book learning being tested. More just that you can you sit down and write the right code/design - which is what you'll be doing every day on a programming job outside meetings collecting those requirements and scheduling the work.
> dropped out my freshmen year at a top 40 college. Was on the cyber security team etc. too expensive so I had to dropout.
Lack of a degree would disqualify you from 95% of programming jobs I've worked at. I don't think it's important myself, but I'm not a hiring manager. The only person I saw hired without one had an amazing project portfolio with hit apps in the app store I would have trouble writing. So it can happen, but it's like being a star baseball player. Outside the reach of most people.
If you really want to be a full time, salaried programmer and don't have a star portfolio, or large bodies of open source code to show off, I think you'd have to take out a loan and get that piece of paper from college first. Project work, or work from contacts or friends at tech meetups, generally is less strict re that. But companies that don't know you are going to just filter you out for no degree.
Best way to get a job is to get a job. Developers are in hot demand, so you must be able to find a job... somewhere. It may not be the best company, but you'll get a foot hold in the industry.
I know this, there is a certain number of applications you need to file to get a job. I can’t tell you what that number is. But I can tell you there is only one way to discover what that number is.
Sounds like you’re firing on all fronts.
What’s your goal/objective? Pick an industry find their association and make inroads.
If you didn’t land a FAANG out of college you’re going to have the hustle at SMEs and build a resume that shows consistency in the following: - you showed up - you got things done (be wary of hanging your hat on that one thing you did back in xxxx).
But if it’s just healthcare, HomeDepot/CostCo may be a good bet. Even if you hustle at a place like that and make manager you can make enough to take care of a family.
Also I’d lose the victim and woes-is-you cuz big corporate isn’t noticing you -‘tude.
At the end of the day your job will be to make someone else’s life easier, if you figure out who, and can speak to how in an interview, chances are you’ll get the job.
What’s your goal/objective? Pick an industry find their association and make inroads.
If you didn’t land a FAANG out of college you’re going to have the hustle at SMEs and build a resume that shows consistency in the following: - you showed up - you got things done (be wary of hanging your hat on that one thing you did back in xxxx).
But if it’s just healthcare, HomeDepot/CostCo may be a good bet. Even if you hustle at a place like that and make manager you can make enough to take care of a family.
Also I’d lose the victim and woes-is-you cuz big corporate isn’t noticing you -‘tude.
At the end of the day your job will be to make someone else’s life easier, if you figure out who, and can speak to how in an interview, chances are you’ll get the job.
- Move to the EU to get health insurance (:
- Start freelancing
You’re part of this new gen of folks who’s too sophisticated for their own good. See them all the time.. just try the same queue as everyone else and things might work out
There are lots of smaller less well known companies you can start at and then work your way towards your ideal. Try to stick at each company 1-2 years minimum.
Post your resume and github profile. This seems like a strange post to make without actually linking to any of the work that you've done.
Oh that's brilliant, let's link a thread where OP details his personal struggles and shortcomings to his IRL identity.
Surely if the recruiters weren't all over him before, now they'll just be clamouring to hire him! Wow!
Surely if the recruiters weren't all over him before, now they'll just be clamouring to hire him! Wow!
This appears to be someone playing a joke on this thread. If such a person ever existed, I feel bad for you. McDonalds is always hiring.
A lot of the orgs you mentioned are top-tier and they interview A LOT of candidates and they reject almost all of them.
Get a job at a small no name company, gain experience, get a better job, repeat. That's how I got to Facebook.
I recommend building something, anything. Show your skills via attempting to build a product and shipping it.
Can a hiring manager just do an anonymous mock interview with OP over Zoom and offer actionable feedback?
Look at state, county, and municipal government. These are all soul-killers but generally come with livable pay and good benefits, and if you have any relevant skills at all, it's relatively easy to find an opening. There is also contract work for these entities, which can give you a chance to meet people, check out the landscape, and note which skills are in highest demand while you find a way to wiggle into the system.
Stay only as long as you need to or the environment will destroy you. Usually I'd say one year max, but you sound like you need more. Use your time to plan your future in detail.
Look and act happy. Defer to "authority" (i.e., the hopeless incompetent mutants who hire and fire). Smile a whole lot. Pretend that you like everyone even if you hate them all. Engage in friendly chitchat and help out with birthdays and potlucks when they come around. Fake it.
If people like you they'll give you a pass on everything as long as you don't set the place on fire or molest their children. If people don't like you then you're out of luck no matter how excellent you are, because it's government work, and government doesn't go broke, and if something doesn't get done today, or doesn't get done right, there is always tomorrow. And people just want to get through the day and go home and forget about it.
Stay only as long as you need to or the environment will destroy you. Usually I'd say one year max, but you sound like you need more. Use your time to plan your future in detail.
Look and act happy. Defer to "authority" (i.e., the hopeless incompetent mutants who hire and fire). Smile a whole lot. Pretend that you like everyone even if you hate them all. Engage in friendly chitchat and help out with birthdays and potlucks when they come around. Fake it.
If people like you they'll give you a pass on everything as long as you don't set the place on fire or molest their children. If people don't like you then you're out of luck no matter how excellent you are, because it's government work, and government doesn't go broke, and if something doesn't get done today, or doesn't get done right, there is always tomorrow. And people just want to get through the day and go home and forget about it.
Consider creating passive revenue streams instead of employment. Embrace your position as an outsider.
Life as a ENTP. You need to start a company and stop expecting people to hire you, hire yourself.
You sound like the kind of person who should be freelancing or starting a business.
>I might be homeless soon
Where is your family? Why can't you return to your parents?
Where is your family? Why can't you return to your parents?
[deleted]
I'm a self taught dev, with only about 2 years of experience.
Personally, I do not apply to jobs. It feels like throwing my resume into a blackhole.
Instead, my strategy is: build an online presence --> I put my resume online in various job sites (see 3rd to last sentence in my post for examples), I have a web portfolio, which links to my github where I have an open source project I built (in modern frameworks: node, react, postgres) and I am on LinkedIn with over 500 connections.
I get jobs interview requests from recruiters via the strategy above.
* Do you have open source code on Github?
* Do you have a web portfolio showing personal/academic/work-skill related projects?
I worked 5 months in 2020-- mostly was on sabbatical. Yet was hired twice-- both times via recruiters who contacted me on LinkedIn.
In 2021, I've worked 2 months-- recently quit a job after realizing it wasn't the right role for me. And yet, I have spoken two recruiters (1 internal and 1 external recruiter) in the past two days. I usually get 1-3+ recruiters contacting me every week or two-- why? Because I market myself, and I decided to build trendy dev skills.
That is, I focused on learning specific skills which I saw were currently in demand: Javascript (node & react), AWS Cloud, SQL, among others.
Yet, I do not know algorithms. It's an area I need to study. So, I don't think I'd be able to land the interviews you've landed-- those top notch companies. If I did, I would surely fail.
By the way, those are difficult companies to pass interviews with. They all have tons of applicants.
* Did you send your resume to those companies/orgs you've listed on the first line of your post? Or were you contacted by their recruiters?
Recruiters contact software developers because they have a urgent need to fill a role.
Whereas, if you're applying to companies then you're throwing your resume into a stack of potentially dozens or even hundreds of very well qualified, well-studied applicants who in many cases studied for weeks or months for their interviews.
I don't do that-- Instead, I put my presence online via LinkedIn, A web portfolio, and profiles on job sites (Indeed, ZipRecruiter, DICE, etc. type sites-- the ones that let you setup a resume on their site so it can be indexed by recruiters).
It sounds like it may be a problem of your strategy.
Market yourself, if you're not marketing yourself.
___________
By the way-- Homelessness is not necessarily that bad as long as you're resourceful: asking around to find A. a property camp on B. local resources such as food banks & community centers.
I've spent a year of my life living out of a tent in my pursuit of software dev skills so I could study (and not pay bills) rather than work full time.
For example, I set up a tarp tent in woods on the outskirts of Portland, OR, and would go to a community center for showers. Every day I'd go to a cafe to apply to jobs (this was back before I worked as a professional dev-- was still working in marketing). And sure, my car was broken into while I was camping there, but hey-- all replaceable stuff.
Prior to that, I lived in a tent for 4 months on someone's property east of Austin, TX. How'd I find a person's property to camp on? I asked around in my social network & also to strangers at parties-- "Hey, I am looking for a property to camp on where I'd have access to a shower, bathroom, and kitchen, do you know of anyone?" --> repeated dozens of times until I found someone who knew someone.
In Juneau, Alaska, I spent 8 weeks living in a tarp tent while working at a fish smokehouse during the morning & early evening, and then studying programming in the late afternoon & sometimes evening at a cafe or library. Food? Breakfast &. lunch: smokehouse's employee breakroom microwave. Dinner: Camping stove. Showers? Public Pool's locker room.
Was it always comfortable and easy? Hell no. Did it make me work hard to accomplish my goal of building skills? Hell yes.
Personally, I do not apply to jobs. It feels like throwing my resume into a blackhole.
Instead, my strategy is: build an online presence --> I put my resume online in various job sites (see 3rd to last sentence in my post for examples), I have a web portfolio, which links to my github where I have an open source project I built (in modern frameworks: node, react, postgres) and I am on LinkedIn with over 500 connections.
I get jobs interview requests from recruiters via the strategy above.
* Do you have open source code on Github?
* Do you have a web portfolio showing personal/academic/work-skill related projects?
I worked 5 months in 2020-- mostly was on sabbatical. Yet was hired twice-- both times via recruiters who contacted me on LinkedIn.
In 2021, I've worked 2 months-- recently quit a job after realizing it wasn't the right role for me. And yet, I have spoken two recruiters (1 internal and 1 external recruiter) in the past two days. I usually get 1-3+ recruiters contacting me every week or two-- why? Because I market myself, and I decided to build trendy dev skills.
That is, I focused on learning specific skills which I saw were currently in demand: Javascript (node & react), AWS Cloud, SQL, among others.
Yet, I do not know algorithms. It's an area I need to study. So, I don't think I'd be able to land the interviews you've landed-- those top notch companies. If I did, I would surely fail.
By the way, those are difficult companies to pass interviews with. They all have tons of applicants.
* Did you send your resume to those companies/orgs you've listed on the first line of your post? Or were you contacted by their recruiters?
Recruiters contact software developers because they have a urgent need to fill a role.
Whereas, if you're applying to companies then you're throwing your resume into a stack of potentially dozens or even hundreds of very well qualified, well-studied applicants who in many cases studied for weeks or months for their interviews.
I don't do that-- Instead, I put my presence online via LinkedIn, A web portfolio, and profiles on job sites (Indeed, ZipRecruiter, DICE, etc. type sites-- the ones that let you setup a resume on their site so it can be indexed by recruiters).
It sounds like it may be a problem of your strategy.
Market yourself, if you're not marketing yourself.
___________
By the way-- Homelessness is not necessarily that bad as long as you're resourceful: asking around to find A. a property camp on B. local resources such as food banks & community centers.
I've spent a year of my life living out of a tent in my pursuit of software dev skills so I could study (and not pay bills) rather than work full time.
For example, I set up a tarp tent in woods on the outskirts of Portland, OR, and would go to a community center for showers. Every day I'd go to a cafe to apply to jobs (this was back before I worked as a professional dev-- was still working in marketing). And sure, my car was broken into while I was camping there, but hey-- all replaceable stuff.
Prior to that, I lived in a tent for 4 months on someone's property east of Austin, TX. How'd I find a person's property to camp on? I asked around in my social network & also to strangers at parties-- "Hey, I am looking for a property to camp on where I'd have access to a shower, bathroom, and kitchen, do you know of anyone?" --> repeated dozens of times until I found someone who knew someone.
In Juneau, Alaska, I spent 8 weeks living in a tarp tent while working at a fish smokehouse during the morning & early evening, and then studying programming in the late afternoon & sometimes evening at a cafe or library. Food? Breakfast &. lunch: smokehouse's employee breakroom microwave. Dinner: Camping stove. Showers? Public Pool's locker room.
Was it always comfortable and easy? Hell no. Did it make me work hard to accomplish my goal of building skills? Hell yes.
There are a lot of great comments here about what to do but wanted to add something a little different. Most of the advice here about what you should be doing is reasonable, but one critical thing that's missing is that most people that do the right, pro-social things, don't do it just to get what they want. When it comes to highly important decisions, sure, people strategize and ensure that the consequences are personally beneficial but for the most part, people act properly in social situations because they are socialized to instinctively care about other people's needs. People are programmed (through some combination of nature and nurture of course) to take into account the needs of others that they spend time with, whether bosses, coworkers, friends or family.
It appears to me that you're missing or perhaps blocked out some of this conditioning. The reason why people are throwing out terms like "sociopath" or "autism" here is that you do not seem to have any instinctive regard for others or even your future self in any of your stories - either you don't know how your actions would affect others or you don't care. I know a lot of people think being relieved of having to care about others makes it easy to become successful because they think they can then take advantage of others without any qualms, but this ignores motivational aspects. For most people, naked self-interest isn't motivating enough to get people to do the right things even for themselves. People that aren't motivated by something that's bigger than themselves - whatever the causes may be - usually find it difficult to put off instant self-gratification and control their emotions enough to do what it takes to become successful. To be motivated enough to overcome your habits, you may have to learn to care about other beings beyond your immediate self. This will also make it easier to instinctively do the right thing - you don't have to pretend to care, when you actually do.
It appears to me that you're missing or perhaps blocked out some of this conditioning. The reason why people are throwing out terms like "sociopath" or "autism" here is that you do not seem to have any instinctive regard for others or even your future self in any of your stories - either you don't know how your actions would affect others or you don't care. I know a lot of people think being relieved of having to care about others makes it easy to become successful because they think they can then take advantage of others without any qualms, but this ignores motivational aspects. For most people, naked self-interest isn't motivating enough to get people to do the right things even for themselves. People that aren't motivated by something that's bigger than themselves - whatever the causes may be - usually find it difficult to put off instant self-gratification and control their emotions enough to do what it takes to become successful. To be motivated enough to overcome your habits, you may have to learn to care about other beings beyond your immediate self. This will also make it easier to instinctively do the right thing - you don't have to pretend to care, when you actually do.
Don't use the dad email address for job stuff. It has baggage.
Try doing a mock interview and really act on any feedback you get.
Here's some advice... stop asking the internet for advice
Freelance for a couple years, get marketable skills.
apply somewhere that will actually hire you whether they have good insurance or not
go to healthcare.gov & don't forget to thank obama
go to healthcare.gov & don't forget to thank obama
I gave up and became a lab tech.
I suspect this will never be read, but what the heck...
I sincerely wish you luck.
I reckon there’s a lot that hasn’t been said, possibly because you are personally unaware.
I can relate. I have had difficulty in personal relationships for most of my life, and learning to get past this was a long, humbling process.
Today’s hiring system is pretty messed up. I should know. I gave up looking some time ago, because the experience has become more akin to a college hazing, than a serious professional evaluation. I have no interest in proving to anyone that I’m willing to abase myself (because I’m not). If that is required, then I won’t waste anyone’s time.
But I’m extremely fortunate. I can afford to remain aloof. That’s a rare privilege.
Credit history is now something that almost every job looks at; especially at large companies. It’s pretty routine to review that. Most HR departments have contracts with vetting companies, and credit history is “low-hanging fruit.” These companies will also do things like check criminal history (even just arrest or misdemeanor convictions), follow up educational claims (I remember a guy getting fired, nearly a year into his employment, because he Photoshopped his degree), and will sometimes also trawl social media.
A criminal history or bad credit is not a showstopper, but it requires a clear, honest, humble approach; along with self-exposure. Assume they’ll find out. I knew a chap that did four felony bids upstate, and ended up working as a network admin for the DOE. Psych history is easier to hide, because HIPAA, but we need to address the issue, or it will be obvious. Even so, being honest and forthright can be helpful. If we have Tourette’s Syndrome, it will usually be immediately apparent, so it’s not a good idea to try to hide it, or get combative, when asked about it. Red flags make people nervous. Nervous people can ask awkward, ignorant questions. Being kind and understanding won’t hurt. We can decide that we don’t want to work with this person, but we don’t need to salt the earth behind us.
High-security corporations and TLAs will break out the proctoscope. There’s a form for applying to sensitive government agencies, that is over 100 pages long. They may interview your ex, so be nice to her/him/them.
I’m very honest. I don’t hide a thing. This has not always been helpful, but it’s also who I am. I have no interest in working with folks unwilling to accept me as I am.
I do know that most US states (from your post, I assume you are in the US, and that you are a US citizen) have agencies that help people to find work; often through coaching and résumé assistance. I live in New York, which is fairly good for that.
A follow-up mentioned having a portfolio. We can work on open-source projects, and build up portfolios. I have a pretty massive one.
We can also network. Develop positive relationships with anyone we can. Even low-level contacts in companies can be enormously helpful. Many corporations pay “spiffs” to employees, for recommending prospects. Be friendly, kind, open, and a team player. It pays great dividends.
Working in open-source project teams is a great way to do that. It also gives us a portfolio. Volunteer work is great. Many NPOs suffer a lack of tech talent. They would be grateful for any help, and you can establish great relationships, that way. Be careful, however, who you work with. If you work with United Way, local food banks, or housing assistance orgs, that is good. Work with more...intense organizations (I won’t list any) can be an issue, though.
There’s a lot more I could say, but I tend to prolix (obv). I suspect that stuff you did not mention is your albatross, and I’d suggest doing a fearless and searching personal inventory. Be brutally honest with yourself. Shine a klieg lamp on your personal aspect, personality, and demeanor. Ask for help. Be humble. It sounds like you have no choice.
Be prepared to address personal demons. It can be terrifying, but well worth it.
Good luck, and godspeed.
I sincerely wish you luck.
I reckon there’s a lot that hasn’t been said, possibly because you are personally unaware.
I can relate. I have had difficulty in personal relationships for most of my life, and learning to get past this was a long, humbling process.
Today’s hiring system is pretty messed up. I should know. I gave up looking some time ago, because the experience has become more akin to a college hazing, than a serious professional evaluation. I have no interest in proving to anyone that I’m willing to abase myself (because I’m not). If that is required, then I won’t waste anyone’s time.
But I’m extremely fortunate. I can afford to remain aloof. That’s a rare privilege.
Credit history is now something that almost every job looks at; especially at large companies. It’s pretty routine to review that. Most HR departments have contracts with vetting companies, and credit history is “low-hanging fruit.” These companies will also do things like check criminal history (even just arrest or misdemeanor convictions), follow up educational claims (I remember a guy getting fired, nearly a year into his employment, because he Photoshopped his degree), and will sometimes also trawl social media.
A criminal history or bad credit is not a showstopper, but it requires a clear, honest, humble approach; along with self-exposure. Assume they’ll find out. I knew a chap that did four felony bids upstate, and ended up working as a network admin for the DOE. Psych history is easier to hide, because HIPAA, but we need to address the issue, or it will be obvious. Even so, being honest and forthright can be helpful. If we have Tourette’s Syndrome, it will usually be immediately apparent, so it’s not a good idea to try to hide it, or get combative, when asked about it. Red flags make people nervous. Nervous people can ask awkward, ignorant questions. Being kind and understanding won’t hurt. We can decide that we don’t want to work with this person, but we don’t need to salt the earth behind us.
High-security corporations and TLAs will break out the proctoscope. There’s a form for applying to sensitive government agencies, that is over 100 pages long. They may interview your ex, so be nice to her/him/them.
I’m very honest. I don’t hide a thing. This has not always been helpful, but it’s also who I am. I have no interest in working with folks unwilling to accept me as I am.
I do know that most US states (from your post, I assume you are in the US, and that you are a US citizen) have agencies that help people to find work; often through coaching and résumé assistance. I live in New York, which is fairly good for that.
A follow-up mentioned having a portfolio. We can work on open-source projects, and build up portfolios. I have a pretty massive one.
We can also network. Develop positive relationships with anyone we can. Even low-level contacts in companies can be enormously helpful. Many corporations pay “spiffs” to employees, for recommending prospects. Be friendly, kind, open, and a team player. It pays great dividends.
Working in open-source project teams is a great way to do that. It also gives us a portfolio. Volunteer work is great. Many NPOs suffer a lack of tech talent. They would be grateful for any help, and you can establish great relationships, that way. Be careful, however, who you work with. If you work with United Way, local food banks, or housing assistance orgs, that is good. Work with more...intense organizations (I won’t list any) can be an issue, though.
There’s a lot more I could say, but I tend to prolix (obv). I suspect that stuff you did not mention is your albatross, and I’d suggest doing a fearless and searching personal inventory. Be brutally honest with yourself. Shine a klieg lamp on your personal aspect, personality, and demeanor. Ask for help. Be humble. It sounds like you have no choice.
Be prepared to address personal demons. It can be terrifying, but well worth it.
Good luck, and godspeed.
If this is essay is a representative sample of how you express yourself in general, then one recommendation is to improve your communication ability/style [1]. Stream-of-conscious may work in online chatrooms, but not in professional settings. In any team-oriented setting, clear and organized communication is non-negotiable. Your writing here signals intelligent, but manic, frantic, and maybe not a great communicator.
It sounds like you're a good technical writer when you need to be, based on your anecdote about writing up the problem with Amazon's anti-fraud system. But you need to be a good communicator in general, not just specifically to technical writing. However, if my overall impression here is inaccurate then feel free to ignore.
For example, up until the following line you were at least understandable, but this line was unclear:
>"Got referrals etc. dropped out my freshmen year at a top 40 college. Was on the cyber security team etc. too expensive so I had to dropout."
Are you saying you were on the cyber security team at your university, but it was too expensive so you had to drop out? If so, just say that in a sentence: "I was on the cyber security team at my top 40 university, but it was too expensive so I had to drop out." (also, did you apply for student loans? Most top 40 universities can put together a package of grants and loans to keep the folks they admitted). And referrals from who for what?
Also this:
>"Also was concerned about support reps being able to access any customer's data simply by pressing 'bypass' on the security question promt page. I couldn't transfer internally until a year later as well. Would ping your manager each time you apply as well. Have to delete your emails constantly due to only having 1gb email space. Assessment was similar to the one I took for CIA. Cognitive based assessment."
There are multiple concepts jumbled together here in a confusing stream of conscious. Separate each out into a sentence, simplify it as much as possible, and order the sentences according to some logical progression (chronological, causal, etc).
Busy people you're asking to employ you don't have the mental bandwidth to decipher your writing and communications, they're 150% preoccupied with more important things (to them). Make it as easy as possible for them to understand you, evaluate your request and the value in it to them, and say yes. "Don't Make Me Think" [2].
Any time you want something of value from someone, step outside of yourself, put yourself in their shoes, and think through what they need or want but don't have in their current position. Try to see the world completely from their PoV, imagine you are them. Figure out what they need, what is of most value to them right now, how to get it for them, and offer it in return for what you need. Get your clever hacker mind good at solving that kind of problem, and it will take you far.
[1]:https://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2007/06/the... [2]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_Make_Me_Think
It sounds like you're a good technical writer when you need to be, based on your anecdote about writing up the problem with Amazon's anti-fraud system. But you need to be a good communicator in general, not just specifically to technical writing. However, if my overall impression here is inaccurate then feel free to ignore.
For example, up until the following line you were at least understandable, but this line was unclear:
>"Got referrals etc. dropped out my freshmen year at a top 40 college. Was on the cyber security team etc. too expensive so I had to dropout."
Are you saying you were on the cyber security team at your university, but it was too expensive so you had to drop out? If so, just say that in a sentence: "I was on the cyber security team at my top 40 university, but it was too expensive so I had to drop out." (also, did you apply for student loans? Most top 40 universities can put together a package of grants and loans to keep the folks they admitted). And referrals from who for what?
Also this:
>"Also was concerned about support reps being able to access any customer's data simply by pressing 'bypass' on the security question promt page. I couldn't transfer internally until a year later as well. Would ping your manager each time you apply as well. Have to delete your emails constantly due to only having 1gb email space. Assessment was similar to the one I took for CIA. Cognitive based assessment."
There are multiple concepts jumbled together here in a confusing stream of conscious. Separate each out into a sentence, simplify it as much as possible, and order the sentences according to some logical progression (chronological, causal, etc).
Busy people you're asking to employ you don't have the mental bandwidth to decipher your writing and communications, they're 150% preoccupied with more important things (to them). Make it as easy as possible for them to understand you, evaluate your request and the value in it to them, and say yes. "Don't Make Me Think" [2].
Any time you want something of value from someone, step outside of yourself, put yourself in their shoes, and think through what they need or want but don't have in their current position. Try to see the world completely from their PoV, imagine you are them. Figure out what they need, what is of most value to them right now, how to get it for them, and offer it in return for what you need. Get your clever hacker mind good at solving that kind of problem, and it will take you far.
[1]:https://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2007/06/the... [2]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_Make_Me_Think
Thanks for the feedback. I initally wrote a 5000+ word post. However, after noticing that the limit is 2000. I cut a lot out of my post. I should've proofread more. Though, I feel that HN is an informal environment. I was trying to express that I dropped out of college due to the cost. The cyber security team is free.
Ok great! Yes HN is informal, so I thought that might be the case, but didn’t want to assume and leave anything potentially useful unsaid.
> I've quit a lot. I haven't lasted anywhere longer than 2 months. I contribute a lot and then quit after I feel like I'm not getting appropriate compensation. Though I certainly agree that I need to stick with a job. I think ageism, and other biases are in place though. More years of experience I get the less disdained I will be I think. [1]
As others have said, I think you're likely suffering from an accumulated lack of results as well as what feels like elevated or unrealistic expectations for the positions you're getting.
I agree with your characterization that, in a just world, your contributions would be given greater reward. But you weren't applying to work in a just world, you applied to work in the world we all live in. I think you need to face that the kind of treatment you've received is common. We work in an industry that has high pay relative to industries with similar levels of training - but considering the profit margins of the companies involved there's a case to be made that workers are under-negotiating their salaries nation wide. The lack of recognition you experienced is part of a pattern that you will continue to see - even (perhaps especially) at the companies you listed in your post.[2]
Instead of thinking about this from the point of view of the company, consider things from the point of view of the person interviewing you. One of the messages that they are going to receive from how you talk about your work history is that you accept position that you are not actually satisfied with in the hopes of trading up in the short term. When that goal doesn't come to pass, you often leave. If had an engineer with that attitude placed on my team by someone else I would be hesitant to give them responsibility. I might empathize with their perspective about wanting to be promoted or compensated at the level I felt appropriate, but that's the deal I've made with the company and I would suspect that I couldn't trust that you had made the same deal.
I think you should really think about what you are willing to accept. You should be prepared to stay while being unfairly denied rewards for...at least a year I'd think? That's not the goal, of course, but I think you want to distance yourself from that series of short stints. I would think you would maximize your chances of being hired if, when talking about previous gigs, you told a story about how you previously had unrealistic expectations but now you're world-weary like everyone else and mostly looking for more interesting work. It will be a careful balancing act because ofc people will wonder and be suspicious. Above all - the people who interview you are imagining seeing you every day for the next 1, 2, 5, 10 years. You need them to walk away feeling like, at minimum, you're not going to vanish on them.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26826805
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...
As others have said, I think you're likely suffering from an accumulated lack of results as well as what feels like elevated or unrealistic expectations for the positions you're getting.
I agree with your characterization that, in a just world, your contributions would be given greater reward. But you weren't applying to work in a just world, you applied to work in the world we all live in. I think you need to face that the kind of treatment you've received is common. We work in an industry that has high pay relative to industries with similar levels of training - but considering the profit margins of the companies involved there's a case to be made that workers are under-negotiating their salaries nation wide. The lack of recognition you experienced is part of a pattern that you will continue to see - even (perhaps especially) at the companies you listed in your post.[2]
Instead of thinking about this from the point of view of the company, consider things from the point of view of the person interviewing you. One of the messages that they are going to receive from how you talk about your work history is that you accept position that you are not actually satisfied with in the hopes of trading up in the short term. When that goal doesn't come to pass, you often leave. If had an engineer with that attitude placed on my team by someone else I would be hesitant to give them responsibility. I might empathize with their perspective about wanting to be promoted or compensated at the level I felt appropriate, but that's the deal I've made with the company and I would suspect that I couldn't trust that you had made the same deal.
I think you should really think about what you are willing to accept. You should be prepared to stay while being unfairly denied rewards for...at least a year I'd think? That's not the goal, of course, but I think you want to distance yourself from that series of short stints. I would think you would maximize your chances of being hired if, when talking about previous gigs, you told a story about how you previously had unrealistic expectations but now you're world-weary like everyone else and mostly looking for more interesting work. It will be a careful balancing act because ofc people will wonder and be suspicious. Above all - the people who interview you are imagining seeing you every day for the next 1, 2, 5, 10 years. You need them to walk away feeling like, at minimum, you're not going to vanish on them.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26826805
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...
is there a chapter on copy & paste from stack overflow in taocp?
Go into politics?
[deleted]
>I welcome any and all advice that any of y'all could offer. Even if it's brutally candid.
You might need a job... but based on what I'm able to intuit from reading your message (and your other posts -- because I like to try to read everything from a poster to better understand them and their position before responding), if you need a job...
Then you need a MENTOR -- at least 10 times more than you need that job!
And maybe that need is more like 100 or 1,000 times greater...
In other words, your first priority in life, your absolute first priority, at this point in time, should be:
To get a good Mentor!!!
You can certainly apply to jobs too -- but your first priority should be:
To get a good Mentor!!!
Here, Tai Lopez makes the point much better than I do, in the following video:
Do You Need A Mentor? (Or Books)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viMfGNJmimU
Now, Tai is not the only source of information on this subject...
Here, try this YouTube query for a list of videos:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=power+of+mentor...
After watching some of those, the next logical question is, "How to find a Mentor?"
Well, let's again go to YouTube for some ideas!
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+find+a+m...
If I were you -- I'd spend the next 24 hours of your life listening to these videos and internalizing their ideas, and then (after the ideas have been internalized and the value of a good mentor is understood!) -- I'd spend the next couple of weeks actively searching for a good mentor, and subsequently trying to persuade them to accept you as someone to be mentored (note that this part of things may be challenging -- you may need to endure more than a few rejections... but "seek and ye shall find" as a certain old text that I forgot the name of -- so eloquently stated! <g>)
Also, working with a great Mentor -- is infinitely better than having Health Insurance... <g> (At least in my opinion!)
...But maybe if you play your cards right -- maybe you could get both! It would not be unheard of to find a Mentor who could offer you a job with Health Insurance, although, they would be a little bit harder to find than Mentors that don't...
I mean, Mr. Miyagi in "The Karate Kid" -- didn't offer Health Insurance to Daniel!
Yoda in "Star Wars" -- didn't offer Health Insurance to Luke Skywalker!
(But, who knows, maybe you can beat the averages, and find a Mentor who does in fact, offer Health Insurance... if Health Insurance is really that important!)
Anyway, wishing you well, and hoping for the best for you!
-Peter
You might need a job... but based on what I'm able to intuit from reading your message (and your other posts -- because I like to try to read everything from a poster to better understand them and their position before responding), if you need a job...
Then you need a MENTOR -- at least 10 times more than you need that job!
And maybe that need is more like 100 or 1,000 times greater...
In other words, your first priority in life, your absolute first priority, at this point in time, should be:
To get a good Mentor!!!
You can certainly apply to jobs too -- but your first priority should be:
To get a good Mentor!!!
Here, Tai Lopez makes the point much better than I do, in the following video:
Do You Need A Mentor? (Or Books)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viMfGNJmimU
Now, Tai is not the only source of information on this subject...
Here, try this YouTube query for a list of videos:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=power+of+mentor...
After watching some of those, the next logical question is, "How to find a Mentor?"
Well, let's again go to YouTube for some ideas!
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+find+a+m...
If I were you -- I'd spend the next 24 hours of your life listening to these videos and internalizing their ideas, and then (after the ideas have been internalized and the value of a good mentor is understood!) -- I'd spend the next couple of weeks actively searching for a good mentor, and subsequently trying to persuade them to accept you as someone to be mentored (note that this part of things may be challenging -- you may need to endure more than a few rejections... but "seek and ye shall find" as a certain old text that I forgot the name of -- so eloquently stated! <g>)
Also, working with a great Mentor -- is infinitely better than having Health Insurance... <g> (At least in my opinion!)
...But maybe if you play your cards right -- maybe you could get both! It would not be unheard of to find a Mentor who could offer you a job with Health Insurance, although, they would be a little bit harder to find than Mentors that don't...
I mean, Mr. Miyagi in "The Karate Kid" -- didn't offer Health Insurance to Daniel!
Yoda in "Star Wars" -- didn't offer Health Insurance to Luke Skywalker!
(But, who knows, maybe you can beat the averages, and find a Mentor who does in fact, offer Health Insurance... if Health Insurance is really that important!)
Anyway, wishing you well, and hoping for the best for you!
-Peter
Forget about Tech & hiring for a minute. Try to pretend you're not in dire straits financially and think where you'd like to be professionally if these things weren't the issue. What kind of job would you like to do if things were going well? No hiring manager will want to hear "I'm flexible", or "I can do anything" they want you to know for yourself exactly where you have set your mind at so there is little risk for them when they match you to what they have. Flexibility does backfire so avoid it!
There are many rants on social media right now from people who love hating on the meme that you need passion for your job. They are right ofc that this is overrated (and the point of where HR people sound like hallmark cards peddling passion as a requirement for the job also makes my stomach turn). But if it weren't for passion I'd have nothing in life and no desire to achieve anything.
It's also not enough to use passion to get out of where you are but it often is the first step in initiating needed change. Once you have it (don't be too eager to announce it but let it be your engine). Passion helped me to put up with a lot of other crap in life because it's like blinders on a horse that make you power through the shit while others say it can't be done. It allows you to be stubborn when you need to be (but others telling you "you can't afford its luxury"). It will also help keep your eyes on the ball when the road takes you on a detour. The best trips usually do, or as Mike Tyson said "everyone has a plan till they get punched". So better be great at rolling with the punches.
The problems you describe means you're the underdog that has to work 10x the normal rate and people like to hate on them because it provides them the contrast that they need to feel good themselves. They point their petty fingers and say "look how well I'm doing in comparison", and you need to assume many will do that instead of really helping you. You can sense the tone of some in this thread. Be sure many IRL will also get hung up on that you tried to spoof the number. But really nobody gives a shit as long as you don't tell them. We all fuck up, so move on, do better next time. And don't listen to anyone but yourself (and below is the reason why this is crucial).
People in your situation don't really know any more what their self* wants in the long run and are forced to take the next best opportunity (anything really because as your environment tells you: you can't afford to be picky).
You may think you're not even in a position to say no to anything. Any crap somebody offers you will need to be "evaluated" as it were "the deal of your life"! And this is what wastes your time and what may cost you dearly, there is nothing more expensive than being poor (having no options). So be careful with any and all advise and with the opportunities that you consider taking and reject them when needed. This is a mindfuck because how could you when you seem to have no choice: but you always have choice! And as others here have said: take a step back (meaning step out of your comfort zone and accept a detour). You still got the best years in front of you but it depends on the things you set in motion _today_. Many don't have that luxury anymore (even they talk a big game).
If you can't get your foot in the door try to find something that allows you to survive, but where you can also carve out just enough time on working on a side project (or whatever you decide tickles your fancy. It doesn't need to be work related - that might come anyway automatically[1]) and build a social network from there (because you are forced but more importantly because you want to and it feels right).
It might take months or it could take years. But the point is that you keep moving. Sometimes quite literally. You can optimize your luck by packing light and move to another city or country to do whatever you find. It's perhaps gonna suck very often but it also gonna be an adventure, and more important, you'll find that you're learning something new and expand your social circle. So even when the job sucks you know that it's not for nothing (you still got a hobby or social circle to maintain a healthy self*).
Be patient with yourself and don't hate people for considering you "toxic" right now. Meaningful (professional)relationships will only happen if you are 100% at peace with what you do (and are able to say NO to 9 out of 10 things without losing sleep). People (even the dumb ones) are experts at knowing when somebody is in a rut (which means only the creeps and vampires stick around so be cautious). Build a relationship with yourself again first. The rest will come from that. (it can _never_ be the other way around and if you try it might land you in a world of pain and misery)
Also forget romantic relationships for now (if there are any). Put yourself first. Don't limit yourself in this situation to the demands of a relationship and don't expect from others that they stay with you during all the changes you might have to put yourself through. Hope this doesn't come across rough, and apologies for it only being generic feedback :)
Hunter S. Thompson’s Letter on Finding Your Purpose and Living a Meaningful Life https://fs.blog/2014/05/hunter-s-thompson-to-hume-logan/
If you want drop me an email. Best of luck!
There are many rants on social media right now from people who love hating on the meme that you need passion for your job. They are right ofc that this is overrated (and the point of where HR people sound like hallmark cards peddling passion as a requirement for the job also makes my stomach turn). But if it weren't for passion I'd have nothing in life and no desire to achieve anything.
It's also not enough to use passion to get out of where you are but it often is the first step in initiating needed change. Once you have it (don't be too eager to announce it but let it be your engine). Passion helped me to put up with a lot of other crap in life because it's like blinders on a horse that make you power through the shit while others say it can't be done. It allows you to be stubborn when you need to be (but others telling you "you can't afford its luxury"). It will also help keep your eyes on the ball when the road takes you on a detour. The best trips usually do, or as Mike Tyson said "everyone has a plan till they get punched". So better be great at rolling with the punches.
The problems you describe means you're the underdog that has to work 10x the normal rate and people like to hate on them because it provides them the contrast that they need to feel good themselves. They point their petty fingers and say "look how well I'm doing in comparison", and you need to assume many will do that instead of really helping you. You can sense the tone of some in this thread. Be sure many IRL will also get hung up on that you tried to spoof the number. But really nobody gives a shit as long as you don't tell them. We all fuck up, so move on, do better next time. And don't listen to anyone but yourself (and below is the reason why this is crucial).
People in your situation don't really know any more what their self* wants in the long run and are forced to take the next best opportunity (anything really because as your environment tells you: you can't afford to be picky).
You may think you're not even in a position to say no to anything. Any crap somebody offers you will need to be "evaluated" as it were "the deal of your life"! And this is what wastes your time and what may cost you dearly, there is nothing more expensive than being poor (having no options). So be careful with any and all advise and with the opportunities that you consider taking and reject them when needed. This is a mindfuck because how could you when you seem to have no choice: but you always have choice! And as others here have said: take a step back (meaning step out of your comfort zone and accept a detour). You still got the best years in front of you but it depends on the things you set in motion _today_. Many don't have that luxury anymore (even they talk a big game).
If you can't get your foot in the door try to find something that allows you to survive, but where you can also carve out just enough time on working on a side project (or whatever you decide tickles your fancy. It doesn't need to be work related - that might come anyway automatically[1]) and build a social network from there (because you are forced but more importantly because you want to and it feels right).
It might take months or it could take years. But the point is that you keep moving. Sometimes quite literally. You can optimize your luck by packing light and move to another city or country to do whatever you find. It's perhaps gonna suck very often but it also gonna be an adventure, and more important, you'll find that you're learning something new and expand your social circle. So even when the job sucks you know that it's not for nothing (you still got a hobby or social circle to maintain a healthy self*).
Be patient with yourself and don't hate people for considering you "toxic" right now. Meaningful (professional)relationships will only happen if you are 100% at peace with what you do (and are able to say NO to 9 out of 10 things without losing sleep). People (even the dumb ones) are experts at knowing when somebody is in a rut (which means only the creeps and vampires stick around so be cautious). Build a relationship with yourself again first. The rest will come from that. (it can _never_ be the other way around and if you try it might land you in a world of pain and misery)
Also forget romantic relationships for now (if there are any). Put yourself first. Don't limit yourself in this situation to the demands of a relationship and don't expect from others that they stay with you during all the changes you might have to put yourself through. Hope this doesn't come across rough, and apologies for it only being generic feedback :)
Hunter S. Thompson’s Letter on Finding Your Purpose and Living a Meaningful Life https://fs.blog/2014/05/hunter-s-thompson-to-hume-logan/
If you want drop me an email. Best of luck!
[deleted]
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
i don't believe you
Meta commentary, part 1:
By exposing her soft belly and saying "stab me with your best shot," OP has revealed the soft underbelly darkside of HN. By lowering themself in front of HN, they've made themselves a target for everyone to dump on them. And what do people dump? What is the first thing they offload? The things which by offloading would let them feel best. The first thing people offload on another, is the things which they think are bad, and which they fear they themselves are or have been told they are. By offloading on another, the other becomes that thing more than they, and in their own mind, they no longer are. Serenity unlocked.
So by examining the accusations against the willfully vulnerable OP (who has perhaps inadvertently made themselves a target for others projections) we can understand what HN (or this sample) fears about themselves.
Let's take a look at the stats. The OP's crimes, by the numbers:
- creep: 41 occurrences
- sociopath: 13 occurrences
- NPD/narcissist: 11 occurrences
Seems there are a lot of "afraid-they're"- creeps, sociopaths, and narcissists out there, who have jumped at the chance to dump on another and show their own selves it's not them. But what surprises is that this is probably not the case. Can their really be so many lurking evildoers in a small sample of HNers?
I think it's more likely that these words are bandied around, and the HNers misunderstand their power, and take them to heart.
Meta commentary, part 2:
What if the OP is not wrong, but we are?
What if the industry is wrong? What if it's not that the OP has caused some untimely and gross violation of the moral fabric that binds us, but what if there's some sort of unspoken bias in operation here (aaand...it wouldn't be the first time), that leads people to incorrectly malign and sideline OP?
What if OP is black? Or a trans man? Or what if they have a big scar from a cancer surgery down their face? Or what if they have cerebral palsy? Or are in a wheelchair? Or what if they are "neurodivergent"? In our society of "tolerance and accommodations" is it really up to the OP to adapt themselves, when we persist in proclaiming they are already "disabled" or "marginalized", if that were true, should we not adapt ourselves? What bias lurks in the shadows of Mordor?
What if the OP is a regular person, not perfect, just imperfect, and it is simply this bias against whatever unharkened trait has led to these outcomes? On such limited information we're all ready to hang OP high for their crimes against our delicate and beautiful Technofaith Ethical Superculture Utopia, but no one's questioning the premise? No one's the jury of the 10th man? "I was allowed to," protest the critics. "OP consented." I'm only reminded of Stanford prison experiment. The guards were allowed to be guards, the prisoners consented to being prisoners, and in 10 days it all went to shit. Shame on you, HN, shame on you.
Only a half /S
Conclusion:
But really what we do to this poor, meek, and vulnerable person in this state, is what we do to ourselves, (why would we sling these arrows at them, if we were not knowing they were arrows, and how do we know they were arrows to sling, if we were not making these arrows, and holding them against our own skin, at our own throats, knowing how sharp they are) and the care we show towards this poor soul, is the care we show towards our own soul, and ourselves, isn't it?
What's the the punishment...the accusations of zero compassion levelled without compassion. Paradox blind. Does our industry have a culture of punishment problem? Did all techheads have awful parents and are now socially maladjusted, un self aware, perpetuators of an abusive cycle, even if only at a passive-aggressive and socially "acceptable" way?
By exposing her soft belly and saying "stab me with your best shot," OP has revealed the soft underbelly darkside of HN. By lowering themself in front of HN, they've made themselves a target for everyone to dump on them. And what do people dump? What is the first thing they offload? The things which by offloading would let them feel best. The first thing people offload on another, is the things which they think are bad, and which they fear they themselves are or have been told they are. By offloading on another, the other becomes that thing more than they, and in their own mind, they no longer are. Serenity unlocked.
So by examining the accusations against the willfully vulnerable OP (who has perhaps inadvertently made themselves a target for others projections) we can understand what HN (or this sample) fears about themselves.
Let's take a look at the stats. The OP's crimes, by the numbers:
- creep: 41 occurrences
- sociopath: 13 occurrences
- NPD/narcissist: 11 occurrences
Seems there are a lot of "afraid-they're"- creeps, sociopaths, and narcissists out there, who have jumped at the chance to dump on another and show their own selves it's not them. But what surprises is that this is probably not the case. Can their really be so many lurking evildoers in a small sample of HNers?
I think it's more likely that these words are bandied around, and the HNers misunderstand their power, and take them to heart.
Meta commentary, part 2:
What if the OP is not wrong, but we are?
What if the industry is wrong? What if it's not that the OP has caused some untimely and gross violation of the moral fabric that binds us, but what if there's some sort of unspoken bias in operation here (aaand...it wouldn't be the first time), that leads people to incorrectly malign and sideline OP?
What if OP is black? Or a trans man? Or what if they have a big scar from a cancer surgery down their face? Or what if they have cerebral palsy? Or are in a wheelchair? Or what if they are "neurodivergent"? In our society of "tolerance and accommodations" is it really up to the OP to adapt themselves, when we persist in proclaiming they are already "disabled" or "marginalized", if that were true, should we not adapt ourselves? What bias lurks in the shadows of Mordor?
What if the OP is a regular person, not perfect, just imperfect, and it is simply this bias against whatever unharkened trait has led to these outcomes? On such limited information we're all ready to hang OP high for their crimes against our delicate and beautiful Technofaith Ethical Superculture Utopia, but no one's questioning the premise? No one's the jury of the 10th man? "I was allowed to," protest the critics. "OP consented." I'm only reminded of Stanford prison experiment. The guards were allowed to be guards, the prisoners consented to being prisoners, and in 10 days it all went to shit. Shame on you, HN, shame on you.
Only a half /S
Conclusion:
But really what we do to this poor, meek, and vulnerable person in this state, is what we do to ourselves, (why would we sling these arrows at them, if we were not knowing they were arrows, and how do we know they were arrows to sling, if we were not making these arrows, and holding them against our own skin, at our own throats, knowing how sharp they are) and the care we show towards this poor soul, is the care we show towards our own soul, and ourselves, isn't it?
What's the the punishment...the accusations of zero compassion levelled without compassion. Paradox blind. Does our industry have a culture of punishment problem? Did all techheads have awful parents and are now socially maladjusted, un self aware, perpetuators of an abusive cycle, even if only at a passive-aggressive and socially "acceptable" way?
1) You mentioned "ageism" so I assumed you were toward the older end of the typical range, but then you said you're in your early 20s? Yeah, no offense but you're basically a kid with no portfolio and no proven job history who dropped out of college, so you're probably not going to find a job that offers health/dental. And that's not "ageism" -- lots of the places you mentioned hire people in their late teens or early 20s -- that's just your inexperience.
2) Don't talk about how you spotted some system deficiency three levels above you and reported it. That's just going to creep people out. And that is NOT the sort of thing that makes a manager think you're Good Will Hunting and say "What's that genius doing in the call center cubicles? Get him an office and insurance right away!" Instead they are 100x more likely to say "Yes, drone, we're all well aware of that issue, get back on the phones."
3) You're cold-contacting SVPs at Dell? Spoofing contact whitelists to get through their phone systems? Yeah, this isn't "War Games," so you're about 1000x more likely to anger somebody than you are to impress them with your skillz. There are the "normal" channels of getting a job (the HR application route) and the "usual" channels (having a friend at the company get you hired)... but anything else (walking into an SVP's suite) is really, really unlikely to help.
I mean this well -- twenty years ago, I was a college freshman dropout with no portfolio, no connections, and a rural drawl -- so you CAN succeed. But I had some rough years and I had to put in my dues as an entry-level help desk grunt before rising up as a sysadmin.
* Get some sort of stable job and don't quit it until a year has gone by AND you have a signed offer letter in hand for a provably better job.
* Don't give up on Medicaid! In most states and most scenarios, you're MUCH more likely to get decent subsidized ACA healthcare than you are to find a job that gives you insurance within 90 days, let alone 30 days. But you gotta do the research and the legwork.
2) Don't talk about how you spotted some system deficiency three levels above you and reported it. That's just going to creep people out. And that is NOT the sort of thing that makes a manager think you're Good Will Hunting and say "What's that genius doing in the call center cubicles? Get him an office and insurance right away!" Instead they are 100x more likely to say "Yes, drone, we're all well aware of that issue, get back on the phones."
3) You're cold-contacting SVPs at Dell? Spoofing contact whitelists to get through their phone systems? Yeah, this isn't "War Games," so you're about 1000x more likely to anger somebody than you are to impress them with your skillz. There are the "normal" channels of getting a job (the HR application route) and the "usual" channels (having a friend at the company get you hired)... but anything else (walking into an SVP's suite) is really, really unlikely to help.
I mean this well -- twenty years ago, I was a college freshman dropout with no portfolio, no connections, and a rural drawl -- so you CAN succeed. But I had some rough years and I had to put in my dues as an entry-level help desk grunt before rising up as a sysadmin.
* Get some sort of stable job and don't quit it until a year has gone by AND you have a signed offer letter in hand for a provably better job.
* Don't give up on Medicaid! In most states and most scenarios, you're MUCH more likely to get decent subsidized ACA healthcare than you are to find a job that gives you insurance within 90 days, let alone 30 days. But you gotta do the research and the legwork.
Brutally candid advice? You sound like a creep. Am I reading it right here, you spoofed your number to talk to executives? In the best case, they'll assume you're a pen-tester; but more likely, you're blacklisted from those companies now.
I wish there was, like, short and simple advice that I could give you to not be a creep. I just tried to google that, and I'm not finding a good clear resource. Like most social skills, there's a viciously sharp learning curve because people don't like giving feedback to creeps because that's usually an opening for even creepier behavior. Sorry.
And, maybe set your sights lower. Your intelligence will shine if you get a job at a very small company that doesn't know what it needs.
I wish there was, like, short and simple advice that I could give you to not be a creep. I just tried to google that, and I'm not finding a good clear resource. Like most social skills, there's a viciously sharp learning curve because people don't like giving feedback to creeps because that's usually an opening for even creepier behavior. Sorry.
And, maybe set your sights lower. Your intelligence will shine if you get a job at a very small company that doesn't know what it needs.
Spoofing your number does seem shady.
However, saying someone is a creep is not very helpful. There is a big difference between how one is perceived and what a person -is-.
The most helpful advice I've seen here is: get direct feedback from a candid friend.
This HN feedback offers a range of opinions, but -please- don't dwell on it. Find a way to have people you know help you ... practice interviews, talking out loud about your situation, your expectations, your goals, and so on.
However, saying someone is a creep is not very helpful. There is a big difference between how one is perceived and what a person -is-.
The most helpful advice I've seen here is: get direct feedback from a candid friend.
This HN feedback offers a range of opinions, but -please- don't dwell on it. Find a way to have people you know help you ... practice interviews, talking out loud about your situation, your expectations, your goals, and so on.
Yeah, you're absolutely right. I wish that I'd said "this behavior sounds creepy / learn to avoid creepy behavior."
Well, there is an edit link right there in your post.
I would describe op's behavior as "desperate" more than creepy. Desperation is really easy to spot and unappealing, my guess is that is shows through in interviews.
I would describe op's behavior as "desperate" more than creepy. Desperation is really easy to spot and unappealing, my guess is that is shows through in interviews.
Desperate is what the primary person feels. Creeped out is what the receiving person feels.
When does desperate become creepy? Everyone has a different definition.
If I was an exec on the receiving end, I'd definitely be put off by all of this.
When does desperate become creepy? Everyone has a different definition.
If I was an exec on the receiving end, I'd definitely be put off by all of this.
I’m an exec. I might be impressed, might not. Context is everything. Two sides to every story.
Hiring someone is a huge liability. Depending on their state it could be a 500k bet. Give me a reason to believe in you.
Red flag of this post is absence of self reflection. What has been learned during this? Why do you deserve a shot?
Hiring someone is a huge liability. Depending on their state it could be a 500k bet. Give me a reason to believe in you.
Red flag of this post is absence of self reflection. What has been learned during this? Why do you deserve a shot?
Personally, I can feel someone's desperation and it feels a lot different to me than when someone is being socially awkward or a creep.
But as someone who's done hiring before they are all pretty big put offs (maybe socially awkward isn't bad as long as it not a interaction heavy role).
But as someone who's done hiring before they are all pretty big put offs (maybe socially awkward isn't bad as long as it not a interaction heavy role).
"I can feel someone's desperation and it feels a lot different to me than when someone is being socially awkward or a creep."
Well, isn't it possible for a person to be desperate and still creep out others? Or even more, as desperation leads to more extreme behavior.
Well, isn't it possible for a person to be desperate and still creep out others? Or even more, as desperation leads to more extreme behavior.
IIRC. the edit option expires after 1-2 hours on HN.
Yes, it expires after 2 hours.
I'll beg to differ; honest feedback was asked ("even if it's brutally candid") and the previous posted gave their honest impression. Other people have their own impressions of course which may differ, bit this is theirs and IMHO this is just valid as any other.
Sometimes you need to be brutally honest to be kind. I'm not a huge fan of harsh lessons and such in general, but there is a time and place for them, and this is probably one of them.
Sometimes you need to be brutally honest to be kind. I'm not a huge fan of harsh lessons and such in general, but there is a time and place for them, and this is probably one of them.
To be fair they didn't call OP a creep. They said he "sounds like a creep". Maybe they should've said: "seem creepy". But to me is po-tay-toe and po-tah-to. Nevertheless, it can be helpful if OP is looking for brutal honesty.
I think saying like it is actually good, the post actually asks for honest feedback.
Well, there it is. It's better to give honest feedback so that the OP can fix these issues and realize how his behavior makes people feel.
The first step into fixing things is realizing the problem.
Well, there it is. It's better to give honest feedback so that the OP can fix these issues and realize how his behavior makes people feel.
The first step into fixing things is realizing the problem.
While perhaps not literally being a creep, how do you think the various acts rate toward perception of the subject by others. While @klyrs post may have been a rush to judgment, I think it portrays an accurate picture of how someone is likely to react to such actions.
There is a big difference between how one is perceived and what a person -is-.
This person consistently gets rejected after the initial meeting, enough for a pattern to become obvious.
This person consistently gets rejected after the initial meeting, enough for a pattern to become obvious.
I get some offbeat social cues from the text as well. From the wording. Maybe it's desperate, maybe is creep. We cannot judge from text alone, but we can feel something.
For me, it's the lack of pronouns (I, we, they, etc) and the short sentences. Many times, the poster omits 'I' at the start of a sentence. Also, they break up things into 2 sentences, instead of just using a comma.
The feel that I get is that many quick things happen to the poster interspersed with lots of boring time between. Like flashes of lightening in their life.
The style gives whiffs of 4chan's greentext posts; depersonalized psuedo-fake tales from people who need therapy to help unravel the other parts of their memories and emotions, not just the low/highlights (not to say that OP is from there, just that the styles are a bit similar).
The feel that I get is that many quick things happen to the poster interspersed with lots of boring time between. Like flashes of lightening in their life.
The style gives whiffs of 4chan's greentext posts; depersonalized psuedo-fake tales from people who need therapy to help unravel the other parts of their memories and emotions, not just the low/highlights (not to say that OP is from there, just that the styles are a bit similar).
Even if it wasn't creepy, sending the message that you get what you want by not playing by the rules makes you a complete wildcard. To the person who will be managing you that makes you sound like a pain in the ass. If you're going to do that you need to make it absolutely clear that your skill set matches your outlier behaviour.
>You sound like a creep.
He sounds desperate. I can imagine the prospect of becoming homeless isn't comforting.
He sounds desperate. I can imagine the prospect of becoming homeless isn't comforting.
The relationship with a potential employer and a romantic interest have the same dynamics between creepy vs confident/hustling. We all have seen examples of both, but if any have tried to project confidence or to hustle to any significant and meaningful degree you run a non-trivial risk of appearing to cross lines / be creepy.
Often it isn’t one or the other. Steve Jobs was both a heartless ass at times while also being a brilliant hustler.
Often it isn’t one or the other. Steve Jobs was both a heartless ass at times while also being a brilliant hustler.
As most things in life, the perception of someone's actions are dictated by the outcome. If you succeed, your decisions might be considered bold and daring, but if you fail, they make you look arrogant or pretentious.
> ...You sound like a creep. Am I reading it right here, you spoofed your number to talk to executives?
If the Op had a bit more credentials, and/or created something special, they might label it as "chutzpah" instead.
I recall a story (perhaps apocryphal) that involved Steve Jobs that was similar.
If the Op had a bit more credentials, and/or created something special, they might label it as "chutzpah" instead.
I recall a story (perhaps apocryphal) that involved Steve Jobs that was similar.
It is not chutzpah. It sounds like that when people tell stories from own point of view they can frame as they wish. They sound cool when you listen to it as uninvolved poison. They are not cool at all when you are there in real life or in receiving end of it.
It is the fantasy vs reality difference. As much as you imagine yourself creative when doing these, other people see blinking red flags and boundary pusher that will cause trouble.
It is like those funny and cool characters on movies, that in reality you would cut out because they are assholes.
It is the fantasy vs reality difference. As much as you imagine yourself creative when doing these, other people see blinking red flags and boundary pusher that will cause trouble.
It is like those funny and cool characters on movies, that in reality you would cut out because they are assholes.
In pretty much every romantic comedy ever, there are probably "charming," "quirky," etc. behaviors that in the real world would be often/usually seen as creepy and stalkerish.
[deleted]
Desperate is not equal to creepy. Try thinking from his perspective, he’s perilously close to hitting rock bottom and terrified of the prospect. A bit of compassion goes a long way.
Desperation does not give you the green light to do whatever you want to other people. Creepy is how you are perceived when you can't feel where that line is and step over it. Try thinking how their actions look from the receiving end, not just theirs.
Desperation does not greenlight creepy behaviour indeed. But keep in mind that a cohort of people does not have the necessary skills to know where the line is (some forms of autism for example).
Not having those skills can lead to situations where actions with genuine intent are perceived as creepy by the counter party.
Not having those skills can lead to situations where actions with genuine intent are perceived as creepy by the counter party.
He reminds me of the protagonist from Nightcrawler, starring Jake Gyllenhaal
Yeah, I expect that once someone meets this person they get the willies and try to avoid all further contact.
Calling yourself "snakedoctor" don't helps to build trust and reinforces the history that you are not totally reliable at all times. Anything that directly would remind to snakes or snake oil is a poor choice if the goal is to impress people, make contacts and be hired
(in my stupid opinion, I could be wrong).
(in my stupid opinion, I could be wrong).
[flagged]
It's impossible to tell if OP's on the spectrum. I used to think I could do that until I got close with a Clinical Psychologist. Sometimes it can't be confirmed even after a few in-person sessions with professionals, so it's certainly dangerous to "guess" it from a few internet comments.
For sure, but this person is asking for help and it’s worth pointing out that there is a lot of socially unacceptable behavior going on here. If he/she doesn’t understand that, it’s probably coming through in the interviews and would explain the ghosting. This is not a diagnosis, it’s a suggestion to get one.
I think parent was saying that author is violating social norms - either because they are oblivious to them (like it is to some people on the spectrum) or they are aware of the norms, but do not care for them (which would be sociopathic)
[deleted]
> but do not care for them (which would be sociopathic)
No, disliking social norms is not sociopathic. The critical piece of being sociopathic is a lack of conscience.
No, disliking social norms is not sociopathic. The critical piece of being sociopathic is a lack of conscience.
[deleted]
That's not true.
A sociopath knows that he's doing something wrong and chooses not to regret it.
A psychopath otoh has a low neural activity in the area of the brain usually associated with empathy.
The main point being that being a sociopath is learned behavior.
Cf. https://youtu.be/6dv8zJiggBs
(I agree that disliking norms are not sociopathic. The norms might be sociopathic.)
(Also: I'm not an expert, I could well be wrong.)
A sociopath knows that he's doing something wrong and chooses not to regret it.
A psychopath otoh has a low neural activity in the area of the brain usually associated with empathy.
The main point being that being a sociopath is learned behavior.
Cf. https://youtu.be/6dv8zJiggBs
(I agree that disliking norms are not sociopathic. The norms might be sociopathic.)
(Also: I'm not an expert, I could well be wrong.)
You are wrong on a meta-level.
Both sociopath and psychopath are terms stemming from the early 20th century, where our main concern was to lable people ASAP and prescribe them a "cure".
No professional psychology authority uses either of those terms today. Instead, you get ranked on the Antisocial personality disorder spectrum. This has several advantages, like having an actual statistical body of research behind it etc.
So your random YouTube video might not be wrong in a sense, but more like someone defining what "miasma" or "bloodletting" is: Interesting, but essentially just a talk about medieval medicine.
I would urge you to refrain from (especially) diagnosing people based on public wisdom on psychology.
Both sociopath and psychopath are terms stemming from the early 20th century, where our main concern was to lable people ASAP and prescribe them a "cure".
No professional psychology authority uses either of those terms today. Instead, you get ranked on the Antisocial personality disorder spectrum. This has several advantages, like having an actual statistical body of research behind it etc.
So your random YouTube video might not be wrong in a sense, but more like someone defining what "miasma" or "bloodletting" is: Interesting, but essentially just a talk about medieval medicine.
I would urge you to refrain from (especially) diagnosing people based on public wisdom on psychology.
[deleted]
OP seems fine to me. It's the social norms/environment that seem pathological here.
Who would have thought that if you interact with robots (read: computers) long enough you turn into one yourself, dear Americans...
It's a clown show. I do not envy OP.
Who would have thought that if you interact with robots (read: computers) long enough you turn into one yourself, dear Americans...
It's a clown show. I do not envy OP.
I'm seeing a therapist. I had an abusive childhood. Not that it justifies anything. I was also homeschooled since the 6th grade, so I didn't really have any IRL friends etc. I hope that I'm not a sociopath... I might be on the high functioning autisim scale. I've never been tested so I don't know.
Yeah, I'd guess that you're on the spectrum. To be quite honest, I see my younger self in your actions. It took me a long time and a lot of work to recognize bad ideas before acting on them, and I wish I could share notes... but I never could learn from other people's advice, only from years of deep reflection after fucking up repeatedly.
But it's good to hear that you're seeing a therapist. I didn't figure that one out until my mid 30s
Edit: I'm not one to crab about downvotes, but if y'all downvoting the parent post could kindly quit that. This person has shared some deep vulnerability here, they're asking for help and doing the work. This shit's a process
But it's good to hear that you're seeing a therapist. I didn't figure that one out until my mid 30s
Edit: I'm not one to crab about downvotes, but if y'all downvoting the parent post could kindly quit that. This person has shared some deep vulnerability here, they're asking for help and doing the work. This shit's a process
> I'm not one to crab about downvotes, but if y'all downvoting the parent post could kindly quit that.
I upvoted parent/OP's post because I agree with you there.
> Yeah, I'd guess that you're on the spectrum.
Unless you are a psychiatrist who has met with OP in person (well, Zoom, these days, I guess), please don't armchair diagnose someone as being autistic. You have no basis or qualifications for this, and reading a couple posts on HN does not count.
I upvoted parent/OP's post because I agree with you there.
> Yeah, I'd guess that you're on the spectrum.
Unless you are a psychiatrist who has met with OP in person (well, Zoom, these days, I guess), please don't armchair diagnose someone as being autistic. You have no basis or qualifications for this, and reading a couple posts on HN does not count.
> Unless you are a psychiatrist who has met with OP in person (well, Zoom, these days, I guess), please don't armchair diagnose someone as being autistic. You have no basis or qualifications for this, and reading a couple posts on HN does not count.
I got the impression they were also on the spectrum and speaking from a place of familiarity. Sure, not a basis for diagnosis, but "I'd guess" isn't a diagnosis. It's a "yeah that seems to line up for me".
People with neurodivergence spot each other whether we want to or mean to or not. It's incredibly delicate bringing it up, but it can be incredibly helpful when someone with like experience says "hey I see a familiar pattern".
I got the impression they were also on the spectrum and speaking from a place of familiarity. Sure, not a basis for diagnosis, but "I'd guess" isn't a diagnosis. It's a "yeah that seems to line up for me".
People with neurodivergence spot each other whether we want to or mean to or not. It's incredibly delicate bringing it up, but it can be incredibly helpful when someone with like experience says "hey I see a familiar pattern".
As someone who was also home schooled and had problems with social interactions in my early twenties the best advice I can give is join several clubs that does things in person.
You MUST learn how to make friends, how to not upset people, how to be comfortable in social situations and empathy.
To do this I would recommend that you force yourself into social situations regularly. Afterwards spend some time thinking about how the interaction went, especially from the other persons viewpoint, practice empathizing (it is a skill that can be learned and will make you a better more considerate person).
So join several clubs that meets and does something in person. You should have two scheduled social events every week.
Try your best to be aware of peoples feelings and groups social structure so that you can try to not trample all over either.
Going straight to upper management as you described is generally not well accepted and most definitely upsets middle management (the people who would actually hire you).
Basically, realize that the problem is who you are and that you need to become someone else to succeed. Changing your own personality is one of the hardest things one can do, so expect it to take a few years.
You MUST learn how to make friends, how to not upset people, how to be comfortable in social situations and empathy.
To do this I would recommend that you force yourself into social situations regularly. Afterwards spend some time thinking about how the interaction went, especially from the other persons viewpoint, practice empathizing (it is a skill that can be learned and will make you a better more considerate person).
So join several clubs that meets and does something in person. You should have two scheduled social events every week.
Try your best to be aware of peoples feelings and groups social structure so that you can try to not trample all over either.
Going straight to upper management as you described is generally not well accepted and most definitely upsets middle management (the people who would actually hire you).
Basically, realize that the problem is who you are and that you need to become someone else to succeed. Changing your own personality is one of the hardest things one can do, so expect it to take a few years.
As someone who sometimes struggles with social stuff, join a club has never been useful advice for me. Its never worked out well, i'm not sure where y'all live where there are actually interesting clubs, and they're pretty awkward environments generally imo.
I've had better luck with do something with a more structured environment. E.g. take an in person class (something not work related. Learn sign language or something) but that takes $$$ and ymmv.
I've had better luck with do something with a more structured environment. E.g. take an in person class (something not work related. Learn sign language or something) but that takes $$$ and ymmv.
I think it used to be difficult to find decent clubs outside of school, but sites like meetup have tons of different groups. Language meetups are particularly plentiful. They are different from a class, but they are always open to people of various levels.
Honestly, i found clubs to be uncomfortable social interactions, even in university (actually, even in high school, and grade school). Maybe they're just not for me. Anyhow i found other ways to fulfil my social needs.
Fair enough, not everyone learns in the same way.
You are right that clubs will feel awkward, for the first 2-3 months anyway. But they will also challenge you to improve your social skills.
You are right that clubs will feel awkward, for the first 2-3 months anyway. But they will also challenge you to improve your social skills.
I've tried out meetup.com and went to one meetup. It was ok. I felt a little uncomfortable though. They solicited for my name, and email to be added to the Slack. There was a lot of recreational clubs etc at my college. I tried rock climbing, and liked it. There wasn't a lot of social interaction with rock climbing though. I went to a party in Austin. Chatted with strangers etc. Wasn't really sure what else to talk about. I've read somewhere that asking strangers for the time might be a good exercise to become more comfortable talking with people.
I asked people that for a while. Except when one guy responded "It's time to get a watch" lol, I became blushed and kinda embrassed. I saw a comment recommending How to Win Friend and Influence People which I definitely want to read.
I asked people that for a while. Except when one guy responded "It's time to get a watch" lol, I became blushed and kinda embrassed. I saw a comment recommending How to Win Friend and Influence People which I definitely want to read.
The secret to being a good conversationalist is to have the other person do most of the talking, and everyone's favorite thing to talk about is themselves.
Being, and therefore appearing, genuinely interested in what the other person is saying about themselves creates the best feelings in the world for the other person, and you won't run out of things to talk about.
"You just got a new dog? Cool!"
Then you can ask any follow up question you like.
What kind? What's their name? Where'd you get them from? Do you feed them "people food"?.. etc.
One question at a time of course, and avoid queuing them up in your head. When the other person is talking, try very hard not to think of the next thing you're going to say. If you do that, you'll miss what they're actually saying and eventually say something that makes it clear you weren't listening. Similarly, you'll miss out on each new bit of the conversation, and those new bits are the basis of new, honest, follow up questions.
You don't have to be interested in dogs generally, to be interested in them temporarily. "Being interested, intentionally" is a skill you can improve.
Don't try to direct the flow of the conversation too much either. Go into your next conversation with friends, family, coworkers, or strangers with a truly open mind about what you're going to talk about, with no agenda, and be happy knowing it could change at any time.
Your job is to listen and ask more.
A lot of supposed "conversations" are just two people looking at each other, waiting for their turn to talk. If you're going to do that you might as well each write your sentences down beforehand, exchange them, and then throw them away without reading them.
The truth is, nobody wants to hear what you have to say. They don't want to hear what I have to say. They want to tell you about what's going on in their lives and what's important to them.
Being, and therefore appearing, genuinely interested in what the other person is saying about themselves creates the best feelings in the world for the other person, and you won't run out of things to talk about.
"You just got a new dog? Cool!"
Then you can ask any follow up question you like.
What kind? What's their name? Where'd you get them from? Do you feed them "people food"?.. etc.
One question at a time of course, and avoid queuing them up in your head. When the other person is talking, try very hard not to think of the next thing you're going to say. If you do that, you'll miss what they're actually saying and eventually say something that makes it clear you weren't listening. Similarly, you'll miss out on each new bit of the conversation, and those new bits are the basis of new, honest, follow up questions.
You don't have to be interested in dogs generally, to be interested in them temporarily. "Being interested, intentionally" is a skill you can improve.
Don't try to direct the flow of the conversation too much either. Go into your next conversation with friends, family, coworkers, or strangers with a truly open mind about what you're going to talk about, with no agenda, and be happy knowing it could change at any time.
Your job is to listen and ask more.
A lot of supposed "conversations" are just two people looking at each other, waiting for their turn to talk. If you're going to do that you might as well each write your sentences down beforehand, exchange them, and then throw them away without reading them.
The truth is, nobody wants to hear what you have to say. They don't want to hear what I have to say. They want to tell you about what's going on in their lives and what's important to them.
I hear people say this so much and it's so incredibly not true for me but I dunno if I'm different, they're all full of it, or both.
Serious question.
Which parts of it aren't true for you?
Have you found that making extra effort to be interested in the other person's ideas / topics / interests, listening carefully, etc. isn't well received?
Or is "nobody wants to hear what you have to say" not true, because you do care what other people have to say, for example? (Obviously that's great if so)
Or something else?
I ask because I started making that kind of effort a couple years ago, slowly but surely, getting better as I went. I didn't tell anybody, but after about a year one friend was like, "you know, you're interested in what we do and you really care. Nobody else does that." And another friend chimed in and agreed. (And I really do care! Sure it's intentional, but it's like eating healthy food, and then you grow to like it)
They were being serious. So if you believe me when I'm telling you this, it has been true for me and those friends.
I also think it's true that most people are oblivious to the extra mental effort that goes into approaching conversations this way, and just leave thinking "finally, someone who gives my ideas the credit and attention they are due. Now if I could just get everyone else to act that way"
And that's fine with me
Which parts of it aren't true for you?
Have you found that making extra effort to be interested in the other person's ideas / topics / interests, listening carefully, etc. isn't well received?
Or is "nobody wants to hear what you have to say" not true, because you do care what other people have to say, for example? (Obviously that's great if so)
Or something else?
I ask because I started making that kind of effort a couple years ago, slowly but surely, getting better as I went. I didn't tell anybody, but after about a year one friend was like, "you know, you're interested in what we do and you really care. Nobody else does that." And another friend chimed in and agreed. (And I really do care! Sure it's intentional, but it's like eating healthy food, and then you grow to like it)
They were being serious. So if you believe me when I'm telling you this, it has been true for me and those friends.
I also think it's true that most people are oblivious to the extra mental effort that goes into approaching conversations this way, and just leave thinking "finally, someone who gives my ideas the credit and attention they are due. Now if I could just get everyone else to act that way"
And that's fine with me
For me, it's inaccurate in that I don't really like to talk about myself - especially ad hoc. And some friends really are interested in what's going on in my life (and I need to push myself to share more).
I find are two types of people - talkers and non-talkers. There is significant but not complete overlap with introverts and extroverts, but some introverts are talkers if they can get someone who will actually listen - others won't really talk regardless, and really prefer to let the other person carry the conversation (or companionable silence, or end the conversation).
Conversation skills differ depending on the pairing - but everyone appreciates someone who listens to understand, not just waits while thinking about what they will say next.
Talker with another talker - listen, ask occasional questions, and give the other person lots of chances to talk. Reduce how much you share.
Talker with a non-talker: Also listen, ask occasional questions, but don't expect too much response - but keep trying to draw out more & find things the other person wants to talk about. Be willing to carry more than your half of the conversation, but that comes naturally, so be careful not to dominate.
Non-talker with a talker: The talkers will love you if you listen! Be attentive, follow along, give verbal and non-verbal acknowledgements and reactions, ask questions, push yourself to share more and "hold up your end of the conversation".
Non-talker with another non-talker. This is rough. You have to pretend you're a talker and carry more than half the conversation. Share more. Work harder to get questions and listen, consider, and ask follow-up questions. It can be really helpful to have questions and topics prepared in advance (good conversation doesn't have to be extemporaneous).
I find are two types of people - talkers and non-talkers. There is significant but not complete overlap with introverts and extroverts, but some introverts are talkers if they can get someone who will actually listen - others won't really talk regardless, and really prefer to let the other person carry the conversation (or companionable silence, or end the conversation).
Conversation skills differ depending on the pairing - but everyone appreciates someone who listens to understand, not just waits while thinking about what they will say next.
Talker with another talker - listen, ask occasional questions, and give the other person lots of chances to talk. Reduce how much you share.
Talker with a non-talker: Also listen, ask occasional questions, but don't expect too much response - but keep trying to draw out more & find things the other person wants to talk about. Be willing to carry more than your half of the conversation, but that comes naturally, so be careful not to dominate.
Non-talker with a talker: The talkers will love you if you listen! Be attentive, follow along, give verbal and non-verbal acknowledgements and reactions, ask questions, push yourself to share more and "hold up your end of the conversation".
Non-talker with another non-talker. This is rough. You have to pretend you're a talker and carry more than half the conversation. Share more. Work harder to get questions and listen, consider, and ask follow-up questions. It can be really helpful to have questions and topics prepared in advance (good conversation doesn't have to be extemporaneous).
Right? My conversation problems all stem from my own dislike of talking about myself.
I think this is a misunderstanding of the advice. I don’t particularly like talking about my life because I live it, and it’s mostly pretty boring. But I do like discussing certain topics. The advice is to find what the other person like discussing, and discuss it in a way that makes them feel you are listening to their point of view.
Personally I don’t think I’ve ever really failed when I use this approach. You can go in with something as direct as, “so, what topic would you like to talk about?” And more often than not have a good conversation.
Personally I don’t think I’ve ever really failed when I use this approach. You can go in with something as direct as, “so, what topic would you like to talk about?” And more often than not have a good conversation.
Even more reason to let the other person talk about themself if they enjoy it.
If both of you dislike talking about yourselves then try to explain something about a subject that you find interesting.
Edit: I want to add that not liking something does not mean you can't be good at it.
If both of you dislike talking about yourselves then try to explain something about a subject that you find interesting.
Edit: I want to add that not liking something does not mean you can't be good at it.
Which part isn't true for you?
Oh geez. Please don't let strangers on the internet diagnose you.
They seem to be open to it, and pretty desperate for advice since they've already tried a lot of things. I'm sure a lot of advice is wrong but maybe some of it will help!
How To Win Friends is a great book for fine tuning interpersonal skills in adversarial situations such as sales calls and job interviews. It's worth a read. But I wouldn't recommend it as something to internalize for actually making friends. It mostly teaches how to seem empathetic as leverage in negotiations. It's more important IMO to develop real empathy through routinely putting yourself in other people's shoes, both when interactimg with them and when passively observing situations.
> How To Win Friends is a great book for fine tuning interpersonal skills ... I wouldn't recommend it as something to internalize for actually making friends.
I would even argue this book can harm your friendships. Really, the whole book is only about friendships that you try to seek value from. That said, there are tons of books worth reading. The therapist can most likely recommend books that are really useful for "homework".
FWIW at some point in my life I also realized I need to improve my social circle and went for asking for the time and all that. Please don't do that, consult with your therapist and just learn by doing otherwise. People tend to think there is one way a person has to be.
Anyways, it's really bad with Covid right now but once that's over, there'll be plenty of opportunity to go to real Meetups, public events and all that.
I would even argue this book can harm your friendships. Really, the whole book is only about friendships that you try to seek value from. That said, there are tons of books worth reading. The therapist can most likely recommend books that are really useful for "homework".
FWIW at some point in my life I also realized I need to improve my social circle and went for asking for the time and all that. Please don't do that, consult with your therapist and just learn by doing otherwise. People tend to think there is one way a person has to be.
Anyways, it's really bad with Covid right now but once that's over, there'll be plenty of opportunity to go to real Meetups, public events and all that.
> They solicited for my name, and email to be added to the Slack.
Your terminology here says a lot, right?
If you are going to a meetup to meet people, then the whole point is to get to know people. And yes, that will involve them knowing your name, and communicating with you.
To open up your job prospects: realize this is normal and desirable.
Your terminology here says a lot, right?
If you are going to a meetup to meet people, then the whole point is to get to know people. And yes, that will involve them knowing your name, and communicating with you.
To open up your job prospects: realize this is normal and desirable.
[deleted]
serverholic(1)
Hmm I would give rock climbing another shot, pandemic aside rock climbing especially at gyms is very social, I’ve even quit gyms because some are more akin to night clubs than climbing gyms.
Bouldering? Ask for beta or work a problem with someone. Top rope or sport? The gym should have a program for people looking for belay partners.
Give it another shot
Bouldering? Ask for beta or work a problem with someone. Top rope or sport? The gym should have a program for people looking for belay partners.
Give it another shot
As someone who has struggled their entire life with feeling like I don't understand people, I feel your pain.
I don't know what kind of climbing you were doing, but I've found bouldering very social. Bouldering problems are short and very intense so you spend most of your time sitting on the mat resting, which inevitably leads to conversation. If you don't have a group to go with or haven't tried bouldering, but would like to continue climbing, I would recommend taking a group bouldering class or the like once COVID dies down. That's a good way to meet people who like the sport and are the same level as you.
This might be a little presumptuous as I don't know anything about you, but since you're in Texas - church/temple/synagogueetc is also a great option if you want to meet people. People want you to join their church so they will be friendly and make an effort to welcome you. Many churches have coffee or small refreshments after the service just so people can socialize. There may even be programs, planned social activities, bible studies or whatnot for new members. This is my bias but I would go to a non-denominational Christian church, the crowd is likely to be younger, more diverse, more interesting, and the music will sound like it's from this century. If you don't like the people, the particular church, or just simply learn that you don't believe in God, you can always just leave, you have no obligation to stay. I myself don't attend church anymore but I must admit they are astoundingly effective social support structures. If you've ever been curious in any way about religion you might as well try it.
I don't know what kind of climbing you were doing, but I've found bouldering very social. Bouldering problems are short and very intense so you spend most of your time sitting on the mat resting, which inevitably leads to conversation. If you don't have a group to go with or haven't tried bouldering, but would like to continue climbing, I would recommend taking a group bouldering class or the like once COVID dies down. That's a good way to meet people who like the sport and are the same level as you.
This might be a little presumptuous as I don't know anything about you, but since you're in Texas - church/temple/synagogueetc is also a great option if you want to meet people. People want you to join their church so they will be friendly and make an effort to welcome you. Many churches have coffee or small refreshments after the service just so people can socialize. There may even be programs, planned social activities, bible studies or whatnot for new members. This is my bias but I would go to a non-denominational Christian church, the crowd is likely to be younger, more diverse, more interesting, and the music will sound like it's from this century. If you don't like the people, the particular church, or just simply learn that you don't believe in God, you can always just leave, you have no obligation to stay. I myself don't attend church anymore but I must admit they are astoundingly effective social support structures. If you've ever been curious in any way about religion you might as well try it.
So what you need to do in that situation is smile and happily give your name + email, then set aside an hour a week to chat with people in that slack channel.
Parties are not really good places to learn social skills, people are generally partially drunk and behave differently than they would anywhere else.
Look at this list of hobbies [1], pick two that you think looks interesting and has a club in your local area. Then join those clubs and show up at every opportunity. If you are asked to join a special event or help out with something or join a forum/chat room then smile and say "yes, I would love to".
Try to stick with the same club for at least a year.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hobbies
Parties are not really good places to learn social skills, people are generally partially drunk and behave differently than they would anywhere else.
Look at this list of hobbies [1], pick two that you think looks interesting and has a club in your local area. Then join those clubs and show up at every opportunity. If you are asked to join a special event or help out with something or join a forum/chat room then smile and say "yes, I would love to".
Try to stick with the same club for at least a year.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hobbies
Try more meetups in person, even if they're awkward! Great way to both network for your next job and sharpen your social skills.
Sounds like you have Aspergers or something like that. At most. But you probably were handicapped by homeschooling, unless you were homeschooled because of these social issues.
Obviously it’s not your technical qualifications but something in the way you approach people in interviews. The fact that you say you had to read how to talk to people at a party and couldn’t figure out how to diverge from doing exactly what you read over and over is what tipped me off to think you may be weirding people out.
Honestly, if you were to say “hey I know I have some weirdness but I have the best intentions”... I personally would appreciate that. The first step is acknowledging that and trying to convince the people you’ll work with that it won’t get in the way.
Also in the future, don’t quit a job if you don’t have a backup just because you wanted to get paid more.
Obviously it’s not your technical qualifications but something in the way you approach people in interviews. The fact that you say you had to read how to talk to people at a party and couldn’t figure out how to diverge from doing exactly what you read over and over is what tipped me off to think you may be weirding people out.
Honestly, if you were to say “hey I know I have some weirdness but I have the best intentions”... I personally would appreciate that. The first step is acknowledging that and trying to convince the people you’ll work with that it won’t get in the way.
Also in the future, don’t quit a job if you don’t have a backup just because you wanted to get paid more.
Echoing another comment that you might be on the spectrum - and I hope the therapist you mentioned can help you relate to that.
The above comment could almost be a quote from "The Speed of Dark" - a (science) fiction novel by Elizabeth Moon about autism (she has a child on the spectrum).
The above comment could almost be a quote from "The Speed of Dark" - a (science) fiction novel by Elizabeth Moon about autism (she has a child on the spectrum).
You're also young. Plenty of well-adjusted people with jobs and families did idiotic things when they were 20, too.
A lot of decorum and etiquette is just practicing enough to learn unwritten rules. Maybe it would help have more casual social interaction.
Might be tough in the age of covid, but there's lots of socializing and networking opportunities outside traditional interviewing. Meetups could be good, because you'd practice in the context of technical discussions and presenting your skillset, which is sorta like interviewing.
My second piece of advice would be to read How to Win Friends and Influence People. It formally codifies a lot of the unspoken rules that charismatic people take for granted.
Might be tough in the age of covid, but there's lots of socializing and networking opportunities outside traditional interviewing. Meetups could be good, because you'd practice in the context of technical discussions and presenting your skillset, which is sorta like interviewing.
My second piece of advice would be to read How to Win Friends and Influence People. It formally codifies a lot of the unspoken rules that charismatic people take for granted.
Speaking from personal experience I think it’s a good possibility you’re on the spectrum. I can’t say for sure of course. But I can say taking some time to find resources that might help you understand if that’s part of what’s going on might help you navigate both the issues you’ve discussed here, and working with your therapist to determine any steps you might want to take toward diagnosis.
I’ll also say I have been where you’re at as you describe. You sound very capable, but you haven’t had the opportunity to thrive. I also had an abusive childhood.
I won’t say what’s important is overcoming all your obstacles and persevering. I’ll say this: you have shown you have a desire for more and you’ve shown you have a capacity for more. I believe you can do it.
I’ll echo one thing other people said but in a different way. I don’t think you should set your sights lower. I think you should consider looking for smaller ponds and see how big a fish you turn out to be. Some of those smaller ponds are wonderful, might even be more wonderful for you than the big ones you’ve looked into.
I’ll also say I have been where you’re at as you describe. You sound very capable, but you haven’t had the opportunity to thrive. I also had an abusive childhood.
I won’t say what’s important is overcoming all your obstacles and persevering. I’ll say this: you have shown you have a desire for more and you’ve shown you have a capacity for more. I believe you can do it.
I’ll echo one thing other people said but in a different way. I don’t think you should set your sights lower. I think you should consider looking for smaller ponds and see how big a fish you turn out to be. Some of those smaller ponds are wonderful, might even be more wonderful for you than the big ones you’ve looked into.
I've had struggles too. I'm now in a much better place.
If you want some FANG interviewing advice or just a general career/life sounding board, feel free to email me at the email on my profile.
this goes for anyone else struggling.
If you want some FANG interviewing advice or just a general career/life sounding board, feel free to email me at the email on my profile.
this goes for anyone else struggling.
Don’t apologize to people who give you abuse. Not on the Internet and not in real life.
No on minds someone that is weird and quiet. The weird and noisy is a problem. Try keeping to yourself (it's hard, I know) and let your work speak for you.
> No on minds someone that is weird and quiet
In my experience, this has definitely not been true. People will assume you're being standoffish even though you're just minding your own business, just aren't a very talkative person, are focused on solving a problem, etc.
If you're trying to "play the game," you'll probably be better off (in some sense) spending less time on work and more time being affable.
In my experience, this has definitely not been true. People will assume you're being standoffish even though you're just minding your own business, just aren't a very talkative person, are focused on solving a problem, etc.
If you're trying to "play the game," you'll probably be better off (in some sense) spending less time on work and more time being affable.
I had this same read. Also I'm incredibly disappointed to see this very kind and encouraging approach marked "flagged dead". OP doesn't seem to be upset about discussing the possibility and added some helpful clarification. This comment shouldn't be moderated the way it has been.
ah hacker news, where you can get both job advice and a diagnosis at the same time.
What are the blacklisting systems all the big companies use now?
Hmm? Usually just in their HR or background check software for their company, I don't think there's any systems dedicated to blacklisting in an organized way except for the shared data on violent contractors that Uber/Lyft started sharing.
I have to admit I snorted after reading your comment and scrolled back up to notice he's using an FSF email address. Apple, tree, etc.
What do you mean - FSF are bad people?
Not bad people by any measure, no. Their advocacy is invaluable. They just have a reputation for having a very creep-friendly culture, for example, the recent RMS fiasco.
you call him a creep, I would call him a go getter.
it is immensely frustrating to deal with automated systems, resume keyword matchers, no contact within a company and being ghosted after taking the time to write a proposal and cover letter that is a fit for the job description.
so what, he called an executive and got around their spam filter?
my advice
treat job hunting like a sales process.
you're successful based on the number of interviews you get.
figure out during the interview what's their decision making process.
read more books on sales and learn to handle rejection.
stop pursuing status jobs, at least until you have one with a good income.
it is immensely frustrating to deal with automated systems, resume keyword matchers, no contact within a company and being ghosted after taking the time to write a proposal and cover letter that is a fit for the job description.
so what, he called an executive and got around their spam filter?
my advice
treat job hunting like a sales process.
you're successful based on the number of interviews you get.
figure out during the interview what's their decision making process.
read more books on sales and learn to handle rejection.
stop pursuing status jobs, at least until you have one with a good income.
> you call him a creep, I would call him a go getter.
I've not had terribly good luck with people who use the term 'go getter.' Quite a few of them have been creeps. Smooth and slick, definitely, but at the end of the day, manipulative people who I avoid making eye contact with at public events, hoping that they don't remember me. Creeps.
I've not had terribly good luck with people who use the term 'go getter.' Quite a few of them have been creeps. Smooth and slick, definitely, but at the end of the day, manipulative people who I avoid making eye contact with at public events, hoping that they don't remember me. Creeps.
Sounds like many external third party recruiters, or perhaps many sales oriented jobs. Assuming you have a thick skin for rejection.
I tend to avoid dealing with such recruiters that use heavy handed forceful tactics, but there are a lot of them.
I tend to avoid dealing with such recruiters that use heavy handed forceful tactics, but there are a lot of them.
I wonder if you use the word creep really broadly; e.g. to include people that make you uncomfortable.
Many/most of those people, it seems to me, mean well but have difficulty connecting with you in the way you are used to. Many of those people have a bunch of insecurities, burdens, or even mental health concerns. I don't think it is useful to call those people creeps.
Some people are certainly toxic in the context of certain relationships or cultures, I get that.
If someone is using you without reciprocating, there are words for that, but I don't tend to use 'creep'.
Anyhow, I hope we can offer constructive (actionable) feedback to the OP.
Many/most of those people, it seems to me, mean well but have difficulty connecting with you in the way you are used to. Many of those people have a bunch of insecurities, burdens, or even mental health concerns. I don't think it is useful to call those people creeps.
Some people are certainly toxic in the context of certain relationships or cultures, I get that.
If someone is using you without reciprocating, there are words for that, but I don't tend to use 'creep'.
Anyhow, I hope we can offer constructive (actionable) feedback to the OP.
> I wonder if you use the word creep really broadly; e.g. to include people that make you uncomfortable.
Isn't that the normal definition?
I guess i agree that creep is a deregatory word and not really helpful in this context. At the same time, intentionally obfuscating who you are in order to trick someone into interacting with you against their will is not ok behaviour, and well within what most people consider "creepy". Possibly even crosses the line into harrasment.
> Many/most of those people, it seems to me, mean well but have difficulty connecting with you in the way you are used to. Many of those people have a bunch of insecurities, burdens, or even mental health concerns.
That's hard, but ultimately doesn't excuse actions that negatively impact other people.
Isn't that the normal definition?
I guess i agree that creep is a deregatory word and not really helpful in this context. At the same time, intentionally obfuscating who you are in order to trick someone into interacting with you against their will is not ok behaviour, and well within what most people consider "creepy". Possibly even crosses the line into harrasment.
> Many/most of those people, it seems to me, mean well but have difficulty connecting with you in the way you are used to. Many of those people have a bunch of insecurities, burdens, or even mental health concerns.
That's hard, but ultimately doesn't excuse actions that negatively impact other people.
There are people that I am uncomfortable with that I don't call creeps.
Just take physical proximity for example. I know some close talkers. I find it awkward but not creepy. Various cultures have varying degrees of recognizing personal space.
Just take physical proximity for example. I know some close talkers. I find it awkward but not creepy. Various cultures have varying degrees of recognizing personal space.
> Many/most of those people, it seems to me, mean well but have difficulty connecting with you in the way you are used to. Many of those people have a bunch of insecurities, burdens, or even mental health concerns.
And I wouldn’t hire them. That’s the point OP was trying to make.
And I wouldn’t hire them. That’s the point OP was trying to make.
Exactly. It might not be their fault but that is not an excuse for me to hire them, it is not my prerogative to give the benefit of the doubt especially when so many other job applicants exist.
What you describe seems very different from the poster.
I get the impression it is common for technically oriented people to think of salespeople, marketers, and recruiters as manipulative.
In your view, what are some ways you think about the difference between persuasion and manipulation?
I've been reading about this very topic in the context of media persuasion.
In your view, what are some ways you think about the difference between persuasion and manipulation?
I've been reading about this very topic in the context of media persuasion.
"The scholar, having to encounter doubts and difficulties on all hands, [...] learns to take nothing for granted; least of all, to make an assumption of his own superior merits. [...] It takes years of patient toil and devoted enthusiasm to master any art or science; and after all, the success is doubtful. He infers that other triumphs must be prepared in like manner at an humble distance: he cannot conceive that any object worth seizing on or deserving of regard, can be carried by a coup de main. [...] It never once enters his head (till it is too late) that impudence is the current coin in the affairs of life; that he who doubts his own merit, never has credit given him by others; [...] that the world judge by appearances, not by realities; and that they sympathize more readily with those who are prompt to do themselves justice, and to show off their various qualifications or enforce their pretensions to the utmost. [...] He who has spent the best part of his time and wasted his best powers in endeavouring to answer the question -- 'What is truth?' -- scorns a lie, and every thing making the smallest approach to one. His mind by habit has become tenacious of, devoted to the truth."
William Hazlitt, The Shyness of Scholars (1827)
William Hazlitt, The Shyness of Scholars (1827)
William Hazlitt, The Shyness of Scholars (1827)
That was before universities had PR departments.
That was before universities had PR departments.
In this context, manipulation comes from a place of dishonest enthusiasm.
Salespeople, marketers, and recruiters generally don't give two shits about the product they're selling.
So yes it's manipulative because they're displaying fake enthusiasm and trying to trick you into thinking it's genuine.
Salespeople, marketers, and recruiters generally don't give two shits about the product they're selling.
So yes it's manipulative because they're displaying fake enthusiasm and trying to trick you into thinking it's genuine.
For me it's whether I believe that the person genuinely cares about the good of the person they're interacting with. Very, very few sales people will stop trying to sell you a thing just because they find out you don't need it.
Put another way, persuasion is helping someone explore the topic and come to their own conclusion, manipulation is going in knowing the answer and guiding towards it. If you are trying to help someone realize a truth you knew ahead of time, you're manipulating them.
Put another way, persuasion is helping someone explore the topic and come to their own conclusion, manipulation is going in knowing the answer and guiding towards it. If you are trying to help someone realize a truth you knew ahead of time, you're manipulating them.
Not who you asked, but for me persuasion is a manner of manipulation, trying to convince anyone of anything using anything but raw and complete information is manipulation.
Of course under that assumption, basically every human communication is manipulative, but that doesn't mean it is intrinsically "evil". It's all rather subjective I guess.
"Evil", or maybe to be a bit more specific, "sleazy", would be to use such manipulation with the intent of personal or tribal benefit, which is what fits the people groups you mentioned above.
Of course under that assumption, basically every human communication is manipulative, but that doesn't mean it is intrinsically "evil". It's all rather subjective I guess.
"Evil", or maybe to be a bit more specific, "sleazy", would be to use such manipulation with the intent of personal or tribal benefit, which is what fits the people groups you mentioned above.
Of course everyone has an agenda. I think it crosses over into "manipulation" when you knowingly advance your own agenda at the other person's expense.
For instance, suppose I have a wonderful product people would love to buy, if only they knew about it. I would argue that advertising it wouldn't be "manipulative" as it is commonly understood, even though I am doing it for selfish reasons. But if I knew that the product was dangerous, or fake, or otherwise harmful, then that becomes manipulative behavior.
For instance, suppose I have a wonderful product people would love to buy, if only they knew about it. I would argue that advertising it wouldn't be "manipulative" as it is commonly understood, even though I am doing it for selfish reasons. But if I knew that the product was dangerous, or fake, or otherwise harmful, then that becomes manipulative behavior.
Manipulation is when you lie to me. Persuasion is when you believe what you're telling me.
Manipulation is simply put, getting someone to do what they don't want to do.
Actual persuasion is when you get them to want to do it. But a lot of forms of manipulation are disguised as persuasion - guilt, gaslighting, partial truth. A lot of "hustling" is manipulation too, they want to convince the higher up that they are willing to do anything for the job, despite not being the most qualified for it.
Actual persuasion is when you get them to want to do it. But a lot of forms of manipulation are disguised as persuasion - guilt, gaslighting, partial truth. A lot of "hustling" is manipulation too, they want to convince the higher up that they are willing to do anything for the job, despite not being the most qualified for it.
My criteria is that there shouldn't be shame between us if we found out that we both attended the same metaphorical church, family and all.
> you call him a creep, I would call him a go getter.
Perhaps the difference is how succesful you are at it.
> so what, he called an executive and got around their spam filter?
Pissing off people you need something from is probably a poor tactic. Especially when you're not offering something particularly rare. Doubly so because the executive is not the hiring manager, so its unlikely they could help you, only hurt you.
I agree with most of the rest of your advice fwiw.
Perhaps the difference is how succesful you are at it.
> so what, he called an executive and got around their spam filter?
Pissing off people you need something from is probably a poor tactic. Especially when you're not offering something particularly rare. Doubly so because the executive is not the hiring manager, so its unlikely they could help you, only hurt you.
I agree with most of the rest of your advice fwiw.
> Doubly so because the executive is not the hiring manager
This is really the crux of it, for me. People hear stories about executives finding that diamond in the rough and slashing through the beauracracy to get them hired. That kind of thing almost never happens, especially from the perspective of the person looking for a job. I think this perspective might be hard to get until you've worked at a large organization, or better hired people at one.
Brutal honesty? You're probably just not that special, don't expect special treatment.
This is really the crux of it, for me. People hear stories about executives finding that diamond in the rough and slashing through the beauracracy to get them hired. That kind of thing almost never happens, especially from the perspective of the person looking for a job. I think this perspective might be hard to get until you've worked at a large organization, or better hired people at one.
Brutal honesty? You're probably just not that special, don't expect special treatment.
It does happen - with friends son so that you give favor to friends and hope he will reciprocate.
From sons perspective, executive found diamond, little bit pushed him on starter point.
From other employees perspective, it is nepotism. Friends son got a job that more experienced and qualified people could or should do.
From sons perspective, executive found diamond, little bit pushed him on starter point.
From other employees perspective, it is nepotism. Friends son got a job that more experienced and qualified people could or should do.
Nepotism is very different than what was being described here.
> treat job hunting like a sales process.
Right, and any salesperson will tell you that acting like a creep isn't going to get you sales.
I wouldn't go as far to say OP is a creep, but some of the behavior mentioned does make me cringe a bit.
Right, and any salesperson will tell you that acting like a creep isn't going to get you sales.
I wouldn't go as far to say OP is a creep, but some of the behavior mentioned does make me cringe a bit.
I mean, you have a hmguy that's hustling got three great opportunities and gave them up. So, maybe hustling for a job but not to use it to lranlrn anything to get the skills for the next job.
hire them then
Remember this question, to ask during the "do you have any questions for us" part of your interviews:
"is there anything about my background or experiences that give you pause?"
Furthermore, do not get defensive, If you think they are wrong with how they reply, this means you didn't sell yourself well in that area. This should be taken as feedback in that vain, to improve further interviews.
Given your low level of paid experiences in software dev, i'd assume you have some level of personal projects. My suggestion? Drink the koolaid, Start converting them to serverless microservice SAAS cubes and containers. Document this journey on a blog, use this to build out articles about what you learned while doing it on a portfolio, use that to answer their questions in more interesting ways.
If you work at Amazon, apply for the Amazon Technical Academy.
"is there anything about my background or experiences that give you pause?"
Furthermore, do not get defensive, If you think they are wrong with how they reply, this means you didn't sell yourself well in that area. This should be taken as feedback in that vain, to improve further interviews.
Given your low level of paid experiences in software dev, i'd assume you have some level of personal projects. My suggestion? Drink the koolaid, Start converting them to serverless microservice SAAS cubes and containers. Document this journey on a blog, use this to build out articles about what you learned while doing it on a portfolio, use that to answer their questions in more interesting ways.
If you work at Amazon, apply for the Amazon Technical Academy.
Excellent technique to gain feedback whilst still in the interview. I'll use that in the future
You'll be hired if you've relevant skills/expertise; Ultimately it's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle versus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_hand
Get out of the US if you can. It's not designed to lift you up, only to coerce you into sociopathy.
I homeschooled my sons.
Public school was created to train children to be good little factory workers. A lot of the culture of public school is stuff you also see in old timey factories, like everyone responding to a ring of a bell to end their lunch.
Instead of listening to a bunch of internet strangers tell you that you are some kind of sociopath, let me suggest you try to see yourself as a stranger in a stranger land. The world of paid work is like an alien culture.
Social stuff is always partly learned. It is highly dependent on context. It doesn't matter how talented you are at the social thing or how well adjusted you are, you can't readily fit into an alien culture where you don't know the rules and implicit expectations.
Someone on HN once told me that they had seen a number of "unhireable" people do volunteer work, such as working on open source, and have that ultimately turn into a real job that worked well for them.
I think that's worth a shot.
In the mean time, you might look for gig work to help you pay your bills in the short term. It's much, much easier to avoid homelessness than to get back into housing after landing on the street. (I know this fact all too well from firsthand experience.)
I run a number of things that might be pertinent to your needs. This link is probably the best TLDR of stuff I work on that might be of some use to you:
https://www.reddit.com/r/GigWorks/comments/e81eba/welcome/
Best of luck.
Public school was created to train children to be good little factory workers. A lot of the culture of public school is stuff you also see in old timey factories, like everyone responding to a ring of a bell to end their lunch.
Instead of listening to a bunch of internet strangers tell you that you are some kind of sociopath, let me suggest you try to see yourself as a stranger in a stranger land. The world of paid work is like an alien culture.
Social stuff is always partly learned. It is highly dependent on context. It doesn't matter how talented you are at the social thing or how well adjusted you are, you can't readily fit into an alien culture where you don't know the rules and implicit expectations.
Someone on HN once told me that they had seen a number of "unhireable" people do volunteer work, such as working on open source, and have that ultimately turn into a real job that worked well for them.
I think that's worth a shot.
In the mean time, you might look for gig work to help you pay your bills in the short term. It's much, much easier to avoid homelessness than to get back into housing after landing on the street. (I know this fact all too well from firsthand experience.)
I run a number of things that might be pertinent to your needs. This link is probably the best TLDR of stuff I work on that might be of some use to you:
https://www.reddit.com/r/GigWorks/comments/e81eba/welcome/
Best of luck.
"If I was you" this is what I would do:
Build awesome products or have a killer portfolio/github and work anonymously for crypto-related projects. Build a reputation around your username not your real name. Try getting paid in BTC, etc.
Build awesome products or have a killer portfolio/github and work anonymously for crypto-related projects. Build a reputation around your username not your real name. Try getting paid in BTC, etc.
Holy shit, you're incredibly talented, I just checked out your website.
Get some therapy for your obsession with bitcoin though; it's unhealthy. It's like telling someone to refuse to work for a company that only does direct deposit because you love checks.
Get some therapy for your obsession with bitcoin though; it's unhealthy. It's like telling someone to refuse to work for a company that only does direct deposit because you love checks.
So far all I am seeing is that you want want a high paying job at a reputable company without actually working for it.
Your experience is lacking and jack of all trades master of none.
Start at a small company and work on a skill set. Since you drop out of everything you do. get refs and go from there.
Your experience is lacking and jack of all trades master of none.
Start at a small company and work on a skill set. Since you drop out of everything you do. get refs and go from there.
Got a low level customer support role at Amazon. But I only made $15 with no health insurance. Found some flaws within the anti-fraud system at Amazon, and wrote a detailed e-mail to the VP in charge of the anti-fraud system. It was fixed by 1am. Also was concerned about support reps being able to access any customer's data simply by pressing 'bypass' on the security question promt page. I couldn't transfer internally until a year later as well. Would ping your manager each time you apply as well. Have to delete your emails constantly due to only having 1gb email space. Assessment was similar to the one I took for CIA. Cognitive based assessment.
I even got ghosted after a interview for a manual labor job at Home Depot. I tried cold contacting executives at a few companies. Got meeting with SVP at Dell, Cisco etc. was fruitless though. Spoofed number to bypass contact whitelist etc.
I welcome any and all advice that any of y'all could offer. Even if it's brutally candid. I need a job with decent health/dental insurance. Medicaid is useless. I might be homeless soon. I'm scared, and I don't know what to do. I'm afraid that I'll end up like Bill Landreth.
e: [email protected] will reply with a different email address.