Tell HN: I have the perfect job, why is it not enough?
328 comments
You are describing the hedonic treadmill. Essentially, you become used to your surroundings, and while they are objectively great, from the perspective of inside your own head, this is now normal and you / your monkey mind wants more.
There have been a lot of post floating around the internet with various solutions, the most popular being Stoicism > Positive Psychology / Happiness research > Buddhism / Meditation. I've dabbled a little in all of them and they all have something to offer.
Essentially, you are experiencing a disconnect between how it feels to be you and how you expected to feel. As someone only a little older than yourself, I would say this: your job will never love you back, and especially in the software realm, it may not be as fulfilling as something like woodworking or therapy. It does pay the bills, though.
The above mentioned happiness research / positive psychology suggests that having multiple, meaningful social roles that you can fulfill outside of work will allow you to shoulder more responsibility and find meaning in your life.
What I'm trying say is that in the second half of life, it is our job to give back. So start there.
Also, this is in my morning bookmarks to revisit: https://old.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/so6e8h/engine...
There have been a lot of post floating around the internet with various solutions, the most popular being Stoicism > Positive Psychology / Happiness research > Buddhism / Meditation. I've dabbled a little in all of them and they all have something to offer.
Essentially, you are experiencing a disconnect between how it feels to be you and how you expected to feel. As someone only a little older than yourself, I would say this: your job will never love you back, and especially in the software realm, it may not be as fulfilling as something like woodworking or therapy. It does pay the bills, though.
The above mentioned happiness research / positive psychology suggests that having multiple, meaningful social roles that you can fulfill outside of work will allow you to shoulder more responsibility and find meaning in your life.
What I'm trying say is that in the second half of life, it is our job to give back. So start there.
Also, this is in my morning bookmarks to revisit: https://old.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/so6e8h/engine...
Correct. It works in reverse too.
Anecdote: As I deployed to Afghanistan from my duty station on Okinawa things got progressively shitty. Okinawa -> Manas: Living conditions suck but they have a decent chow hall. Manas -> Camp Leatherneck: Crappy living, crappy chow. Camp Leatherneck -> FOB: wow this sucks. FOB -> combat outpost: holy shit this sucks! How am I gonna do 7 months of this?!
I did. Got used to it. Was actually kind of fun after awhile. Then after deployment you do it in reverse and feels like being upgraded to better and better luxury.
Soon enough you're used to it and living in the barracks on Okinawa sucks again.
Point being that you adjust to living conditions- good or bad. Don't derive purpose from chasing more because you'll always adjust to whatever you attain.
Anecdote: As I deployed to Afghanistan from my duty station on Okinawa things got progressively shitty. Okinawa -> Manas: Living conditions suck but they have a decent chow hall. Manas -> Camp Leatherneck: Crappy living, crappy chow. Camp Leatherneck -> FOB: wow this sucks. FOB -> combat outpost: holy shit this sucks! How am I gonna do 7 months of this?!
I did. Got used to it. Was actually kind of fun after awhile. Then after deployment you do it in reverse and feels like being upgraded to better and better luxury.
Soon enough you're used to it and living in the barracks on Okinawa sucks again.
Point being that you adjust to living conditions- good or bad. Don't derive purpose from chasing more because you'll always adjust to whatever you attain.
> Don't derive purpose from chasing more because you'll always adjust to whatever you attain.
I'd rephrase this, or at least maybe this is what the intent was: it's not that bad to derive purpose from chasing more but it's probably bad to derive purpose from attaining. There's nothing wrong with being ambitious as long as the journey is how you derive purpose.
I'd rephrase this, or at least maybe this is what the intent was: it's not that bad to derive purpose from chasing more but it's probably bad to derive purpose from attaining. There's nothing wrong with being ambitious as long as the journey is how you derive purpose.
Also: chasing less has the same effect
Yes, that's exactly it.
Hah, slightly off topic, but I was there from 09-10 and remember that same journey from MCBH -> Manas -> Leatherneck -> COP -> Patrol Base.
I honestly think Leatherneck may have been the worst out of that experience. Some of the best times were having nothing on a PB for 10+ months (we were there for an extended period).
I honestly think Leatherneck may have been the worst out of that experience. Some of the best times were having nothing on a PB for 10+ months (we were there for an extended period).
No sure why you’re getting downvoted, this makes sense. Humans are incredibly good at adapting to environments. From your perspective, it sounds like a change of pace kept things interesting.
You should write a book about that mental experience. I would read it
ilololed(2)
> -> combat outpost: holy shit this sucks! How am I gonna do 7 months of this?!
> I did. Got used to it. Was actually kind of fun after awhile.
Huge yikes. I can understand adapting to the circumstances, but the concept of combat deployment becoming fun is highly alarming to me. My most charitable interpretation—that your sense of fun was derived from camaraderie during downtime under difficult circumstances, not from actual combat action or from thrill-seeking in a defensive position—the most minimal yikes I can muster is “I would never wish to watch MASH on fast forward this way”.
> I did. Got used to it. Was actually kind of fun after awhile.
Huge yikes. I can understand adapting to the circumstances, but the concept of combat deployment becoming fun is highly alarming to me. My most charitable interpretation—that your sense of fun was derived from camaraderie during downtime under difficult circumstances, not from actual combat action or from thrill-seeking in a defensive position—the most minimal yikes I can muster is “I would never wish to watch MASH on fast forward this way”.
> your sense of fun was derived from camaraderie during downtime under difficult circumstances, not from actual combat action
Correct. I saw none. :)
Correct. I saw none. :)
I’m not surprised this is being downvoted, but I’d appreciate someone actually leaving a comment in case there’s something I’m not understanding about how seven months of combat deployment can be fun that isn’t some combination of monstrous/traumatic.
Your mistake was to take the word "fun" literally.
What he meant was some "possibly enjoyable" state which was different from the "bored comfortable tedium" into which he had settled in.
We all have had similar experiences. When you have too much of the same routine however comfortable, your mind craves some "new" stimulus which will break the tedium.
What he meant was some "possibly enjoyable" state which was different from the "bored comfortable tedium" into which he had settled in.
We all have had similar experiences. When you have too much of the same routine however comfortable, your mind craves some "new" stimulus which will break the tedium.
> As someone only a little older than yourself, I would say this: your job will never love you back, and especially in the software realm, it may not be as fulfilling as something like woodworking or therapy. It does pay the bills, though.
Reminded me of https://github.com/docker/cli/issues/267#issuecomment-695149...
> I no longer build software; I now make furniture out of wood. The hours are long, the pay sucks, and there's always the opportunity to remove my finger with a table saw, but nobody asks me if I can add an RSS feed to a DBMS, so there's that :-)
Relevant discussion of that thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24541964
I think you summarized it well :)
Reminded me of https://github.com/docker/cli/issues/267#issuecomment-695149...
> I no longer build software; I now make furniture out of wood. The hours are long, the pay sucks, and there's always the opportunity to remove my finger with a table saw, but nobody asks me if I can add an RSS feed to a DBMS, so there's that :-)
Relevant discussion of that thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24541964
I think you summarized it well :)
I have observed over the years a tendency of people leaving software for something completely different (often something much more tangible).
Maybe that’s your beef, maybe not.
My take on it is slightly different: It could very well be that instead of burnout, you are just missing purpose and meaning in your life. What is the legacy that you want to build for your kids?
Don’t despair. It’s all good. Give yourself props for mastering all but the highest layer of Maslow‘s pyramid. You’ve achieved something most people on this planet never will.
Onto the last one. Good luck with that!
Maybe that’s your beef, maybe not.
My take on it is slightly different: It could very well be that instead of burnout, you are just missing purpose and meaning in your life. What is the legacy that you want to build for your kids?
Don’t despair. It’s all good. Give yourself props for mastering all but the highest layer of Maslow‘s pyramid. You’ve achieved something most people on this planet never will.
Onto the last one. Good luck with that!
> What is the legacy that you want to build for your kids?
I think for some it's worth challenging the need for a "legacy" in the first place. This certainly is what helped my well-being, not feeling like I had to accomplish X or achieve Y for life to have been "worth it." I want to be kind, stay fed, and help others feel like things are OK which can be done through service both big and small. I guess it's about finding larger meaning in the smaller interactions vs. larger artifacts of legacy.
I'm not entirely in love with how I've represented my thoughts on this, but hopefully the meaning is conveyed.
I think for some it's worth challenging the need for a "legacy" in the first place. This certainly is what helped my well-being, not feeling like I had to accomplish X or achieve Y for life to have been "worth it." I want to be kind, stay fed, and help others feel like things are OK which can be done through service both big and small. I guess it's about finding larger meaning in the smaller interactions vs. larger artifacts of legacy.
I'm not entirely in love with how I've represented my thoughts on this, but hopefully the meaning is conveyed.
Not OP but,
I don't have any issue with legacy, but I do with purpose. What's the point of it all? That's my core struggle.
I don't have any issue with legacy, but I do with purpose. What's the point of it all? That's my core struggle.
I have two thoughts on this, though I think the distinction between legacy and purpose is ultimately pretty thing.
1) Why does your existence need a "point"? Is the need to define such a thing coming from something innate, or is it a reaction to the world and expectations around you?
2) Define your own purpose, that's all anyone has ever done. There is nothing inherent. You almost certainly can't go wrong by giving your time to others, but even less "high-minded" pursuits - such as just consuming, appreciating culture - are valid paths. I think people fall into the trap of believing the only valid purpose is one that leaves a mark. It's a miracle any of exist, it's a valid purpose to just experience that miracle (hopefully in a way that doesn't preclude, or perhaps even enables, others to do the same).
But I'm not particularly informed, just relaying my own journey with this question.
1) Why does your existence need a "point"? Is the need to define such a thing coming from something innate, or is it a reaction to the world and expectations around you?
2) Define your own purpose, that's all anyone has ever done. There is nothing inherent. You almost certainly can't go wrong by giving your time to others, but even less "high-minded" pursuits - such as just consuming, appreciating culture - are valid paths. I think people fall into the trap of believing the only valid purpose is one that leaves a mark. It's a miracle any of exist, it's a valid purpose to just experience that miracle (hopefully in a way that doesn't preclude, or perhaps even enables, others to do the same).
But I'm not particularly informed, just relaying my own journey with this question.
Regarding (1) ...
There's also a somewhat therapeutic thought pattern that goes something like this:
Would I even want to live in a world where someone, or some thing, has pre-determined my purpose?
... I think it's relatively easy to say 'eek! No!'
So then, define your own purpose (2)!
Ok... I can do that. My purpose in life is to just get through it, not give up, and try when possible to improve the lives of others, especially children and young adults.
I guess the secret is in finding peace with that purpose. It's not grandiose, it's not going to leave a mark, but it's probably the most realistic based on my aspirations and drive. Of course I'd love to say that my purpose is eradicating some childhood illness, or starting a business empire, or discovering a new form of energy... but yea, those aren't realistic and are likely to make me feel worse if I try to adopt them as my purpose in life.
Anyways, just my thoughts as I digest your post. Thanks.
There's also a somewhat therapeutic thought pattern that goes something like this:
Would I even want to live in a world where someone, or some thing, has pre-determined my purpose?
... I think it's relatively easy to say 'eek! No!'
So then, define your own purpose (2)!
Ok... I can do that. My purpose in life is to just get through it, not give up, and try when possible to improve the lives of others, especially children and young adults.
I guess the secret is in finding peace with that purpose. It's not grandiose, it's not going to leave a mark, but it's probably the most realistic based on my aspirations and drive. Of course I'd love to say that my purpose is eradicating some childhood illness, or starting a business empire, or discovering a new form of energy... but yea, those aren't realistic and are likely to make me feel worse if I try to adopt them as my purpose in life.
Anyways, just my thoughts as I digest your post. Thanks.
> My purpose in life is to just get through it, not give up, and try when possible to improve the lives of others, especially children and young adults.
I personally think their is beauty in simplicity, including in this purpose. Though I'd perhaps maybe add something around "finding some joy" beyond "just getting through it", but that is coming from my own values/worldview, not from any sort of informed wisdom.
I personally think their is beauty in simplicity, including in this purpose. Though I'd perhaps maybe add something around "finding some joy" beyond "just getting through it", but that is coming from my own values/worldview, not from any sort of informed wisdom.
I would say that, if one asks this question to often, then it's a sign of depression. Non-depressed people don't worry about such issues.
I have been told this before, by a therapist. The problem is, the first time I asked this question (the first known time at least) I was 6 years old. It's recorded on home video.
I've always wondered, if "god" made us, then who made "god"? And why? What am I doing here? Work, eat, sex, get old, get sick, die?
I've always wondered, if "god" made us, then who made "god"? And why? What am I doing here? Work, eat, sex, get old, get sick, die?
[deleted]
I am leaving to the Caparthian mountains to pursue building violins and to open a wedding destination so I can play them as much as possible. I am very close. I don't hate software but I really do miss the physical aspect of work so I think I found a way to "bridge the gap". It's also hard to really play after thinking all day.
I have gotten into writing and self-publishing fiction. It's not as physically tangible as moving into farming or woodworking, but feels far enough from programming to sort of count in this same category. When (re)-discovering that I really liked writing I also took on an SE role that involved both coding and technical writing. I love coding and don't think I'll ever want to stop doing it, but I realised that over the years this one hobby turned into a profession and then turned into my entire identity and sole preoccupation. Trying something totally different, like writing fiction, seems to have helped me to break free a bit of the box I built around myself.
But I do still dream of also starting a chicken rescue farm.
But I do still dream of also starting a chicken rescue farm.
I didn't want to edit my original post, but this is also relevant to this discussion and came up recently. It echoes your observations.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31724942
https://whoisnnamdi.com/never-enough-developers/
I feel like"software" is a really big bucket and there's actually a wide spectrum of projects with different scopes and missions. Some projects are actively harmful to society and I would have a hard time getting meaning from building such software. However there is also a lot of useful progress we can make too, so anyone finding low motivation to keep at it should consider building something else as an option.
Being a software developer is but the initial larval stage.
I think you drastically over-estimate how "fulfilling" something like therapy is. Day in and day out you will see people you desperately wish to help, who if they
listened to 20% of what you offered would see their lives change immensely, only to watch them repeat the same behavior without change day in and day out. Worse, if you deal with depressed or addicted people it's just a matter of time before a client kills themselves.
Grass is always greener, but we have it easy in software and it's good to remember that.
All that said, I've been through the types of discontent that OP mentions. I've worked many interesting software jobs, started multiple businesses, failed many times, succeeded, made lots of money, shipped an indie game that was an expression of myself -- a dream come true, and at the end of it all... emptiness and a feeling of not-enough-ness (not depression!).
If one does not find a philosophy that accepts this as reality at its core, you'll be chasing your tail until the day you die. I personally prefer Buddhism without the ceremonial pomp, and in that vein I'd recommend Noah Levine: https://www.againstthestream.com/dharma-talk-and-meditation-...
Edit: 100% agree though that giving back to people is wonderful. Some of my best experiences have been the happiness in helping someone else succeed.
Grass is always greener, but we have it easy in software and it's good to remember that.
All that said, I've been through the types of discontent that OP mentions. I've worked many interesting software jobs, started multiple businesses, failed many times, succeeded, made lots of money, shipped an indie game that was an expression of myself -- a dream come true, and at the end of it all... emptiness and a feeling of not-enough-ness (not depression!).
If one does not find a philosophy that accepts this as reality at its core, you'll be chasing your tail until the day you die. I personally prefer Buddhism without the ceremonial pomp, and in that vein I'd recommend Noah Levine: https://www.againstthestream.com/dharma-talk-and-meditation-...
Edit: 100% agree though that giving back to people is wonderful. Some of my best experiences have been the happiness in helping someone else succeed.
> shipped an indie game that was an expression of myself
I've been trying to find games that are personal to the developer (I'm actually trying to make one now). What's the name of your game?
I've been trying to find games that are personal to the developer (I'm actually trying to make one now). What's the name of your game?
Send me an email at this temp address if you'd like to chat: pibig18709 at teasya dot com
That Dragon Cancer is certainly one.
I would like to add two other ways to get off the hedonic treadmill for a bit.
1. Backpacking for a 1 week time period or longer. Living out of a backpack is a great way to help rest your brain terms of its standard perspective on what it thinks it needs to be happy in day to day life. Also, there are some nice places you can walk to with a backpack on that you can not drive to.
2. A Therapeutic mushroom trip - read how to change your mind by that hippy Berkley professor. This is not for everyone though. So proceed with caution.
1. Backpacking for a 1 week time period or longer. Living out of a backpack is a great way to help rest your brain terms of its standard perspective on what it thinks it needs to be happy in day to day life. Also, there are some nice places you can walk to with a backpack on that you can not drive to.
2. A Therapeutic mushroom trip - read how to change your mind by that hippy Berkley professor. This is not for everyone though. So proceed with caution.
The generalization is that you need some "stress" in your life to remain grounded, i.e something that you engage on a level that produces a sense of urgency. Backpacking and living minimally can definitely do that. Taking up a sport that has some element of fear/danger can do that as well.
>A Therapeutic mushroom trip - read how to change your mind by that hippy Berkley professor. This is not for everyone though. So proceed with caution.
Mushrooms are way, way, way safer than what people believe. For people who are sane (i.e not suffering from psychosis) it is perfectly safe to do an entry level 2-3.5 gram shroom trip with a trip sitter. You can read all the studies, the negative effects are pretty much non existent, the only stuff that gets mentioned is the meta-effects from things like being disoriented and tripping and falling - thus the trip sitter.
>A Therapeutic mushroom trip - read how to change your mind by that hippy Berkley professor. This is not for everyone though. So proceed with caution.
Mushrooms are way, way, way safer than what people believe. For people who are sane (i.e not suffering from psychosis) it is perfectly safe to do an entry level 2-3.5 gram shroom trip with a trip sitter. You can read all the studies, the negative effects are pretty much non existent, the only stuff that gets mentioned is the meta-effects from things like being disoriented and tripping and falling - thus the trip sitter.
I've done an extended backpacking trip (4 months). Probably took about a month before feeling like a truly therapeutic break. I don't think a week would have been nearly enough.
Did you live out in the wilderness that whole time or travel around out of a backpack? The two are obviously very different so am curious your experience. I have had friends who have backpacked along the PCT, CDT, AT, etc. and they all returned different people.
AT 2016 SOBO section hiker. Just the northern half (from Katahdin to Harper's Ferry), so I might have only came back half a different person. :) I took it pretty leisurely and stopped in at towns often, so I probably averaged about 9-10 miles per day. I'm not an outdoorsman by any stretch, but it was nice to just get away for a while. Definitely made me appreciate the small and simple conveniences of civilization that I often take for granted.
Anecdotal evidence is that you can hack the hedonic treadmill by having interests outside of work. If nothing in your life is more challenging than work, then all of your yardsticks will be based upon it.
If however you're comparing the relative pain of writing documentation to lifting a 40lbs bag of building materials, holding a position in yoga/martial arts class, running a half marathon, riding a century, hiking for six hours in a cold rain, then documentation really isn't so bad.
If however you're comparing the relative pain of writing documentation to lifting a 40lbs bag of building materials, holding a position in yoga/martial arts class, running a half marathon, riding a century, hiking for six hours in a cold rain, then documentation really isn't so bad.
So true. He should go do the 4X4X48 challenge.
This is possibly true.
I'm in my 50's now, and when I was in my 40's, my life-situation allowed me to pursue a lot more outside interests and hobbies. I had a lot of different outside activities, and would go out after work 4 nights a week with something different.
A mass-layoff 5 years ago changed my circumstances in a lot of ways. I have another job - one that I love probably much more. But I relocated, and where I live now just doesn't have many of the same opportunities to do all the different things I used to do. And it's causing a lot of feelings of emptiness and burnout.
Since I work remote, I'm planning on another relocation.
I'm in my 50's now, and when I was in my 40's, my life-situation allowed me to pursue a lot more outside interests and hobbies. I had a lot of different outside activities, and would go out after work 4 nights a week with something different.
A mass-layoff 5 years ago changed my circumstances in a lot of ways. I have another job - one that I love probably much more. But I relocated, and where I live now just doesn't have many of the same opportunities to do all the different things I used to do. And it's causing a lot of feelings of emptiness and burnout.
Since I work remote, I'm planning on another relocation.
What was the main difference between the two locations?
Are these major cities or more rural?
I am thinking of a relocation to a less city-like environment but worry about the loneliness factor. The cities offer people, but less hobbies I'm interested in. City hobbies are mostly social and drinking oriented.
Are these major cities or more rural?
I am thinking of a relocation to a less city-like environment but worry about the loneliness factor. The cities offer people, but less hobbies I'm interested in. City hobbies are mostly social and drinking oriented.
As someone who has split time across rural/urban life, going rural to get away from drinking oriented socializing is probably not going to work as well as you think it will.
How so?
For anyone interested, the above topics (Stoicism, positive psychology, budhism) are all nicely discussed in Happiness Hypothesis, by Jonathan Haidt.
Which is an excellent book, thank you for pointing that out.
Which one? “Finding Modern Truth in Ancient Wisdom” or “Ten Ways to Find Happiness and Meaning in Life”?
For me, engaging in a sport that borders on meditation expanded my mind, I paddleboard around sunset/nights. This tremendously improved my mental state after being trapped inside for most of 2020.
Friendlier, less user-hostile link:
https://old.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/so6e8h/commen...
(The main site goes to great lengths to force registration, even hiding the content after a few seconds (!) when a mobile user-agent is detected)
https://old.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/so6e8h/commen...
(The main site goes to great lengths to force registration, even hiding the content after a few seconds (!) when a mobile user-agent is detected)
Thanks, updated my post. I'm usually logged in in the classic site so I didn't think what it would be like for others.
I've been using this[1] plugin (made by a friend) for years now to get around this issue.
1: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/reddit-fixer/boahh...
1: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/reddit-fixer/boahh...
Yes, these are popular, although unfortunately they don't help the most abused clients: mobile users. Anyhow, this is off-topic. Reddit is an ungrateful, rent-seeking gatekeeper of UGC, news at 11.
> it is our job to give back
I've struggled with the same thoughts above, and giving back is helpful. I've tried to document it (https://www.codekindly.org/) with these principles of giving back by coding kindly:
Be Kind to the Earth: reduce code waste, utilize green infra
Be Kind to Community: donate code, give to charity
Be Kind to Users: protect privacy, provide joyful experiences
Be Kind to Yourself: physical + mental health, cultivate relationships
It's a shift in mindset to find fulfillment in your current job
I've struggled with the same thoughts above, and giving back is helpful. I've tried to document it (https://www.codekindly.org/) with these principles of giving back by coding kindly:
Be Kind to the Earth: reduce code waste, utilize green infra
Be Kind to Community: donate code, give to charity
Be Kind to Users: protect privacy, provide joyful experiences
Be Kind to Yourself: physical + mental health, cultivate relationships
It's a shift in mindset to find fulfillment in your current job
The hedonic treadmill aspect is very relevant, but first we must wonder if perfectjob's work is fulfilling is its social value.
perfectjob (the author) never said the current job is making the world a better place.
perfectjob (the author) never said the current job is making the world a better place.
I think this is why in part some successful artists, once they live in expensive mansions and have already gained access to every luxury, completely lose perspective in life and get into substance abuse, addictions, etc.
Which is similar to what happened in the rat utopia experiment: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-...
Which is similar to what happened in the rat utopia experiment: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-...
There's also the angle that each day is the same as yesterday and the person doesn't feel like it's leading anywhere. It's the same as laying bricks for life or being a simple farmer. It puts food on the table but does nothing for the mind.
Some advice from someone a bit further down the career path:
* If you want to try something, try it! Save up some runway, do your own thing. Try some other projects right now, don't wait. (You won't be able to devote full time effort to them, but can still make progress.) You may find that what you dream about isn't all that, or maybe it is. Either way you can take steps forward.
* I learned to be happy with my life after I'd taken a few alternative paths. Nothing like jumping to a situation, realizing it wasn't what you thought it was, and then jumping to a different situation, then realizing it wasn't all that great, then jumping to a different situation... After I did this a few times, I learned that I needed to create happiness where I was, not try to find it elsewhere. YMMV.
* It is a cliche, but kids are only young once. Enjoy that time.
* If you want to try something, try it! Save up some runway, do your own thing. Try some other projects right now, don't wait. (You won't be able to devote full time effort to them, but can still make progress.) You may find that what you dream about isn't all that, or maybe it is. Either way you can take steps forward.
* I learned to be happy with my life after I'd taken a few alternative paths. Nothing like jumping to a situation, realizing it wasn't what you thought it was, and then jumping to a different situation, then realizing it wasn't all that great, then jumping to a different situation... After I did this a few times, I learned that I needed to create happiness where I was, not try to find it elsewhere. YMMV.
* It is a cliche, but kids are only young once. Enjoy that time.
> It is a cliche, but kids are only young once. Enjoy that time.
This. So many times over. Everything else can be done later or slowly. Don't miss the good bits!
This. So many times over. Everything else can be done later or slowly. Don't miss the good bits!
> * It is a cliche, but kids are only young once. Enjoy that time.
I don't know if I'm wired differently, but my oldest kid is in HS and my youngest is halfway through elementary school, and while I didn't hate the time I spent with my kids, I don't feel like I derived a whole lot of personal enjoyment out of it.
I still would make the same decision -- feeling loved and cared for rather than abandoned is a great gift to any child -- but with a lot of the "milestones" in life it seems to me that a lot of the benefit to doing these things is not staying up late at night wondering if things would have been better had I not missed out...
I don't know if I'm wired differently, but my oldest kid is in HS and my youngest is halfway through elementary school, and while I didn't hate the time I spent with my kids, I don't feel like I derived a whole lot of personal enjoyment out of it.
I still would make the same decision -- feeling loved and cared for rather than abandoned is a great gift to any child -- but with a lot of the "milestones" in life it seems to me that a lot of the benefit to doing these things is not staying up late at night wondering if things would have been better had I not missed out...
It's one of those things that pays out over time, and 20 years from now because you invested your time in your children you'll be able to enjoy them and grandchildren much more than anything else you could've done.
As a good quote I heard once said "No success can compensate for failure in the home"
jobs come and go, achievements are eventually forgotten, and wealth doesn't last forever, but your family will be pretty constant.
As a good quote I heard once said "No success can compensate for failure in the home"
jobs come and go, achievements are eventually forgotten, and wealth doesn't last forever, but your family will be pretty constant.
> but your family will be pretty constant
No? There's divorces and death and all kinds of bad things...
No? There's divorces and death and all kinds of bad things...
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I find it rare for parents to share the non-glowing reviews, and it's refreshing to hear.
Also, I do want to say it's not like I hate spending time with my kids (setting aside the usual annoyances of dealing with misbehaviors), but in terms of pure hedonism, there's plenty of things I enjoy more that I don't do as much because it would be shitty of me to never be around.
I pretty much optimized my life around my young kids. That's why I got a remote job (before covid) and only work four days. I genuinely believe it will be the best investment in my lifetime, and I will look back and be proud I made that decision.
> I learned that I needed to create happiness where I was, not try to find it elsewhere
I fully agree, but it's really hard to do so even if you know that's the right way.
> I learned that I needed to create happiness where I was, not try to find it elsewhere
I fully agree, but it's really hard to do so even if you know that's the right way.
> I fully agree, but it's really hard to do so even if you know that's the right way.
Yes! I agree it isn't easy to do this and I struggle daily, but haven't found a better path.
Certainly alcohol, partying, entrepreneurship, clubs, sports, travel, and adventure (the main paths I've tried) haven't succeeded in providing immediate happiness without effort on my part. (They all had their good aspects, don't get me wrong, but nothing intrinsically made me happy all the time and I was always left wondering "what's over there".)
Yes! I agree it isn't easy to do this and I struggle daily, but haven't found a better path.
Certainly alcohol, partying, entrepreneurship, clubs, sports, travel, and adventure (the main paths I've tried) haven't succeeded in providing immediate happiness without effort on my part. (They all had their good aspects, don't get me wrong, but nothing intrinsically made me happy all the time and I was always left wondering "what's over there".)
> Try some other projects right now, don't wait.
YES. Not "this weekend" or "when things open up a bit," do it now. The river won't part for the stone voluntarily, you need to jam it in the water …
Also, if you can: merge bullet 1 & 3. Try something new with your kids. Learning and exploring together is an amazing experience.
YES. Not "this weekend" or "when things open up a bit," do it now. The river won't part for the stone voluntarily, you need to jam it in the water …
Also, if you can: merge bullet 1 & 3. Try something new with your kids. Learning and exploring together is an amazing experience.
+1 to this. Leverage whatever hobby/passion you are planning to do and use it as a bonding and teaching/learning experience with your children. They will forever value it.
If you want a laundry list of things to start getting into:
- Becoming handy, teach your kids as you do it so they have that life skill. Being considered handy simply is a mindset - do you have the confidence to figure something out via some google searching etc....
- Martial arts - I took Ju-jitsu for 4-5 years and I can tell you martial arts appeals to software engineers - its highly technical which engages your brain, yet very physical which is an area we swe's hardly ever get to use.
- strength training - will increase your energy - physique - and some other passive benefits for your relationship - also something you can get into with your kids and help teach them healthy habits.
- cooking - save money and eat some tasty food - a good cookbook I swear by is America's Test Kitchen Cookbook - they cook things 20 different ways and explain why they settled on a particular approach - along with good explanations of cooking techniques
If you want a laundry list of things to start getting into:
- Becoming handy, teach your kids as you do it so they have that life skill. Being considered handy simply is a mindset - do you have the confidence to figure something out via some google searching etc....
- Martial arts - I took Ju-jitsu for 4-5 years and I can tell you martial arts appeals to software engineers - its highly technical which engages your brain, yet very physical which is an area we swe's hardly ever get to use.
- strength training - will increase your energy - physique - and some other passive benefits for your relationship - also something you can get into with your kids and help teach them healthy habits.
- cooking - save money and eat some tasty food - a good cookbook I swear by is America's Test Kitchen Cookbook - they cook things 20 different ways and explain why they settled on a particular approach - along with good explanations of cooking techniques
And it doesn't have to be something super difficult. I realized after my divorce a decade ago that due to all the hours I had spent working I was a bit of a shit dad and didn't really have a great relationship with my kids.
One of the best things I did was started a "family game night" every week. Bought a handful of board games and each Saturday we'd sit down with pizza and games. No cellphones at the table. It was a huge success for us. It allowed us to learn new things together and it helped build a foundation for us all to grow from. Even now with all but one of my kids grown, when we get together games are brought out and we have a blast. Nowadays I'm teaching my grandson to play some simple ones and can't wait for him to join in.
One of the best things I did was started a "family game night" every week. Bought a handful of board games and each Saturday we'd sit down with pizza and games. No cellphones at the table. It was a huge success for us. It allowed us to learn new things together and it helped build a foundation for us all to grow from. Even now with all but one of my kids grown, when we get together games are brought out and we have a blast. Nowadays I'm teaching my grandson to play some simple ones and can't wait for him to join in.
I was there 5 years ago. My psychology was getting worse by the month as everything I did seemed more and more futile.
I quit my job, travelled to some bucket list destinations like Japan, Fiji, Galapagos, machu piccu, then went on a 5 month backpacking trip across both islands of New Zealand with my (ridiculously) supportive wife. I immersed myself the whole time in zen philosophy and tried to lose my egocentric placement in the universe.
It was a great reset for my depression, but did nothing to erase the fundamental feeling that all of reality and my actions within it are pointless.
For the first year I took my passion projects seriously, devoting almost a full work week of attention to them. At a certain point, I stopped those too. I realized I was merely creating my own flavor of the distractions I'd tired of.
Now the only things that bring me real joy are improving my home environment, the health of my family, and getting out in the sun and playing sports. That kind of "out there, just around the corner" abstract life satisfaction I was chasing seem as ridiculous to me now as participating in US politics. It is all ephemeral.
I quit my job, travelled to some bucket list destinations like Japan, Fiji, Galapagos, machu piccu, then went on a 5 month backpacking trip across both islands of New Zealand with my (ridiculously) supportive wife. I immersed myself the whole time in zen philosophy and tried to lose my egocentric placement in the universe.
It was a great reset for my depression, but did nothing to erase the fundamental feeling that all of reality and my actions within it are pointless.
For the first year I took my passion projects seriously, devoting almost a full work week of attention to them. At a certain point, I stopped those too. I realized I was merely creating my own flavor of the distractions I'd tired of.
Now the only things that bring me real joy are improving my home environment, the health of my family, and getting out in the sun and playing sports. That kind of "out there, just around the corner" abstract life satisfaction I was chasing seem as ridiculous to me now as participating in US politics. It is all ephemeral.
> I realized I was merely creating my own flavor of the distractions I'd tired of.
Bam. Right in the kisser. This is the essence of it.
Bam. Right in the kisser. This is the essence of it.
My conjecture is that happiness will not be found by a job switch. Having a stable job that gives you the money and enough time to pursue your life’s passions is very valuable. I think an artist with a day job would be happier than an artist that scrapes by selling their art. Quitting a well paying job that provides free time _right away_ adds unnecessary lifestyle pressure. My advice is to find and foster your passions outside of work before making career changes, then reorient your life with renewed focus.
Probably depends on the type of person you are but it clearly does not work for me. If not inspired by work i become miserable. Very happy to have taken the risk
I've had pretty similar path (minus the long exotic trip). I've also pursued personal projects and interests very seriously, only to find out that I don't know why I'm doing them really. I found that I'm most satisfied with hedonic/epicurean lifystyle: hanging out with friends, spending time outside, cooking, reading, playing some of my favorite games. Even a job is not that bad, given how easy we can have it in the software profession. I guess any interests and ambitions I had were imprinted on my by external capitalist pressures, and I only realised that when I no longer had to run on the threadmill (I'm leanFIRE already).
> but did nothing to erase the fundamental feeling that all of reality and my actions within it are pointless
There may not be some cosmic teleology for your life, but that doesn't mean it's pointless; it just means you have a clean slate for deciding what you want that point to be.
I think embracing the absurdity of existence can be liberating.
There may not be some cosmic teleology for your life, but that doesn't mean it's pointless; it just means you have a clean slate for deciding what you want that point to be.
I think embracing the absurdity of existence can be liberating.
We can all choose the games we wish to play. Just don't take them seriously.
> But somehow, it isn't. It's never enough. It is probably human to always want more.
The passionate college runner dreams of making the Olympic team -- just to be on the team would be enough. The first-time Olympian dreams of standing on the podium -- bronze would be enough. The bronze medalist is upset he lost to silver by .1 sec. The silver medalist rages that he came so close -- so close! to having it all. The gold medalist wonders if he'll ever win gold again.
No one is ever satisfied. (fine, there are some exceptions -- I tip my hat to them).
All the advice below of quitting to do your own thing is (most likely) baloney. Down that path is just loss of wages and all the associated stress and opportunity costs. Again, there are exceptions, and congrats to them.
Here's my advice: You're doing great -- stop whining! I mean that in the friendliest way possible. This is what winning at life feels like. It doesn't feel like winning.
The passionate college runner dreams of making the Olympic team -- just to be on the team would be enough. The first-time Olympian dreams of standing on the podium -- bronze would be enough. The bronze medalist is upset he lost to silver by .1 sec. The silver medalist rages that he came so close -- so close! to having it all. The gold medalist wonders if he'll ever win gold again.
No one is ever satisfied. (fine, there are some exceptions -- I tip my hat to them).
All the advice below of quitting to do your own thing is (most likely) baloney. Down that path is just loss of wages and all the associated stress and opportunity costs. Again, there are exceptions, and congrats to them.
Here's my advice: You're doing great -- stop whining! I mean that in the friendliest way possible. This is what winning at life feels like. It doesn't feel like winning.
Interestingly, bronze medalists are measurably happier than silver medalists. The theory is that the silver medalist is disappointed at not winning gold (as you say), but the bronze medalist is happy to have obtained any medal.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/thoughtful-animal/why-b...
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/thoughtful-animal/why-b...
What a sad life if you spend it not satisfied with what you have! Personally I am personally very satisfied with my life (I am 37yo) and I absolutely want no more… I have a nice job (pays well enough and is not boring most of the time and allow me enough free time), I have a wonderful marriage (happily together for 20 years), I have good friends and I live in a nice place (southern France on the riviera). I don’t need more money (my Toyota brings me around as well as a Porsche), I don’t need more responsibility nor challenges in my job (it would eat away my free time for family friends and hobbies)… furthermore my self worth is not tied to my job. My advice is to be content with what you have because because wanting more will only lead to unhappiness… ask why do you want more? What is the need you are trying to fulfill? Find out and work on that!
> This is what winning at life feels like. It doesn't feel like winning.
That's a good one, and I might steal it one day :) And you are right.
I should start working on my gratitude because I genuinely have everything you could ever wish for.
That's a good one, and I might steal it one day :) And you are right.
I should start working on my gratitude because I genuinely have everything you could ever wish for.
Paul's 2 cents:
"But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that."
1 Timothy 1:6-8
"But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that."
1 Timothy 1:6-8
No one is ever satisfied, largely true, but there is dissatisfaction that leads to action (I see myself out of shape --> I exercise), and dissatisfaction that leads to sadness, depression, feelings of unworthiness (I see myself out of shape --> I cry hugging a macaroni and cheese).
If a romantic interest rejects you, how do you react? Do you cry and cry and feel the biggest loser on earth or you look around and tell yourself: there are other 10,000 potential romantic interests in this place?
Dedicating oneself to something you want to accomplish, be better at, have fun with is always the answer. The answer, on the contrary, very rarely (never?) comes from deep introspection that inevitably ends with meaning-of-life question.
Dedicating oneself to something you want to accomplish, be better at, have fun with is always the answer. The answer, on the contrary, very rarely (never?) comes from deep introspection that inevitably ends with meaning-of-life question.
I'm in a very similar situation, almost identical, sans kids. I too have this 'struggle'. There's no solution, you're just experiencing life. You're at a stage where you're more safe than you probably had been in the past (I don't know about you, but the 2008 crash really set the tone for my young adulthood). I know I tend to think "I've finally arrived...now what?"
Some combination of suggestion & things that've worked for me:
1) getting a therapist. They will be able to help you work through the feelings a lot better than anyone on HN.
2) don't try to be happy. You can't directly control how you feel like it were a light switch. Aim for contentment and create an environment where you're more likely to be happy. the harder you try to be happy the less likely it is to happen.
3) reduce your focus on work. work is a means to create an environment for you to be happy in. find things outside of work to pour your love and ambition into. Find other sources of validation than work
4) meditate -- and start with guided meditation of some form. do it regularly. it will help you cultivate yourself
Some combination of suggestion & things that've worked for me:
1) getting a therapist. They will be able to help you work through the feelings a lot better than anyone on HN.
2) don't try to be happy. You can't directly control how you feel like it were a light switch. Aim for contentment and create an environment where you're more likely to be happy. the harder you try to be happy the less likely it is to happen.
3) reduce your focus on work. work is a means to create an environment for you to be happy in. find things outside of work to pour your love and ambition into. Find other sources of validation than work
4) meditate -- and start with guided meditation of some form. do it regularly. it will help you cultivate yourself
How many self-help books and YouTube videos does it usually take before someone starts offering advice like this?
absolutely great stuff
absolutely great stuff
There's a scene near the end of Chariots of Fire where Harold Abrahams confesses to an old friend that he's more afraid of winning the race than losing it. Winning the race means losing his purpose. Contrast with the other racer in the story, Liddell, a devout Christian who races for God's glory. His purpose transcends any wins or losses on earth.
It's an ancient problem. (I'm not suggesting that you embrace religion. Just an example.)
In my experience, no matter how much I want a job, after about five years I'm ready to quit.
It's an ancient problem. (I'm not suggesting that you embrace religion. Just an example.)
In my experience, no matter how much I want a job, after about five years I'm ready to quit.
That idea of "losing purpose" after winning the race is really interesting. I've often got caught up in external goals (praise, promotions, shipping an amazing product that everyone loves), and I've noticed that when I've accomplished them, or the external goals themselves disappear (project cancellations), I feel empty inside.
Lately, I've been reading a book on resilience and one of the things it teaches is the Stoic-based idea of valued living. Basically, you list out your values and live your life in the service of those values and try not to focus too much on any external goals. (You can't control the outcome of those goals, but you can control your own behavior.)
Whether you succeed or fail, it doesn't matter. What matters is living your values. Maybe that means crafting the best software you can, or being most helpful to others, or being a really great parent and partner. What it doesn't mean is "I will get 1st place in this race" or "I will get promoted" or "This product will make a lot of money".
In the context of work, I also get bored after a couple of years at a job, and to be honest, a lot of that is based on external goals, either I've met them, or I just can't find any more.
It's definitely hard not to think in terms of external goals in a corporate job, though, as the company will ask you to list goals for yourself for the year and the business itself requires meeting specific ones to succeed.
Lately, I've been reading a book on resilience and one of the things it teaches is the Stoic-based idea of valued living. Basically, you list out your values and live your life in the service of those values and try not to focus too much on any external goals. (You can't control the outcome of those goals, but you can control your own behavior.)
Whether you succeed or fail, it doesn't matter. What matters is living your values. Maybe that means crafting the best software you can, or being most helpful to others, or being a really great parent and partner. What it doesn't mean is "I will get 1st place in this race" or "I will get promoted" or "This product will make a lot of money".
In the context of work, I also get bored after a couple of years at a job, and to be honest, a lot of that is based on external goals, either I've met them, or I just can't find any more.
It's definitely hard not to think in terms of external goals in a corporate job, though, as the company will ask you to list goals for yourself for the year and the business itself requires meeting specific ones to succeed.
I think the average in my 24 year career in software is about 2 years, maybe 2.5 tops.
"You know, it's very strange..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6-Dt1g2E18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6-Dt1g2E18
It is alarming how similar we are (low 30s, 4DWW, great marriage, kids, big house, etc) but I've had similar thoughts.
This sounds cliche and obvious, but it made a big difference for me:
I found myself dreaming of shipping a project, or writing a book - whatever. But, then I would stay in the dream or possibility of what could happen if I did those things - but I wasn't actually doing enough to make them happen.
So, I sat down on a Saturday morning, and wrote down what I would feel "unfulfilled" with in life if I didn't try them. Then, I wrote down a tangible plan to try them. It will takes years, but I will give them a go.
I found that for me, it was the "what if" that was killing me, so I am eliminating that element and will let the chips fall where they may.
This sounds cliche and obvious, but it made a big difference for me:
I found myself dreaming of shipping a project, or writing a book - whatever. But, then I would stay in the dream or possibility of what could happen if I did those things - but I wasn't actually doing enough to make them happen.
So, I sat down on a Saturday morning, and wrote down what I would feel "unfulfilled" with in life if I didn't try them. Then, I wrote down a tangible plan to try them. It will takes years, but I will give them a go.
I found that for me, it was the "what if" that was killing me, so I am eliminating that element and will let the chips fall where they may.
Remembering and referencing Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs just now ... this is the top of the pyramid - Self Actualization - achieving full potential including creative activities. Maybe this vision/desire becomes more prevalent in SW Engineers (in US at least) in their 30's or 40's because you've got the bottom tiers completed (I know its not like a video game skill tree) and possibly have Esteem met with being accomplished in comparison to many other careers. Tech is a sought after field, known to have high income and requires a certain mindset to be good at it. Being good, not even great, at Tech in the US gets you thru the bottom 4 pretty well.
If your job lacks any avenue towards creativity or path towards self-actualization professionally (like being "known" in tech, building a widely used thing, writing a tech book, etc.) then you seek out other avenues towards self-actualization.
My problem is having these ideas of things that I want to do, like an idea for a novel as an example, but not knowing how/where to start or just plain ignoring the sheer amount of work that is required and day-dreaming about it. That's not at the top of my list but that idea keeps percolating up at times. I like your approach about writing down a plan to fulfill those self-actualization types of things.
An example where I've realized its a lot more work is building a desk top out of walnut for a sit/stand desk. From roughly cut boards to a finished top looks easy on youtube videos. Squaring a board to join with other boards without pro tools is a lot of work. So much work, much more than I thought. Some of the work is part of the process of learning.
If your job lacks any avenue towards creativity or path towards self-actualization professionally (like being "known" in tech, building a widely used thing, writing a tech book, etc.) then you seek out other avenues towards self-actualization.
My problem is having these ideas of things that I want to do, like an idea for a novel as an example, but not knowing how/where to start or just plain ignoring the sheer amount of work that is required and day-dreaming about it. That's not at the top of my list but that idea keeps percolating up at times. I like your approach about writing down a plan to fulfill those self-actualization types of things.
An example where I've realized its a lot more work is building a desk top out of walnut for a sit/stand desk. From roughly cut boards to a finished top looks easy on youtube videos. Squaring a board to join with other boards without pro tools is a lot of work. So much work, much more than I thought. Some of the work is part of the process of learning.
> But, then I would stay in the dream or possibility of what could happen if I did those things - but I wasn't actually doing enough to make them happen.
I know that one too well :) What do you have on your list? Just different things in areas of life or mainly productive-related stuff?
I know that one too well :) What do you have on your list? Just different things in areas of life or mainly productive-related stuff?
Mostly career related things. I made peace with the fact that I simply love making things, and there are four things I really want to make that I think could also be a business. Outside of professional stuff, I’m really fulfilled in life (i.e. that’s why I don’t have anything other than career aspirations on this particular list)
Yeah, making a 1 year, 5 year, 10 year, 20 year plan and getting started with it helped a lot for me.
> Most days, I do not have to interact with anyone from work, not even customer contact.
The most satisfying job I had as an software engineer had me working side by side with other amazing engineers, the types of people who have Wikipedia articles about the stuff they've accomplished in life.
Plenty of people work jobs earning less $ if they have an amazing group of people to work with. Sitting side by side with someone who is a catalyst for brilliance is worth a lot, because it adds a lot to your level of personal fulfillment.
> I work from home. My job is technically interesting, and I still learn/improve.
How much do you improve? How hard have you stretched yourself? I've worked with people who made me go far beyond what I thought I could ever do. That was technically interesting. Learning how to read clock diagrams and calculate memory access latencies to see if my algorithms could even run, that was technically interesting.
Working until 11pm at night listening to metal music sitting side by side with another engineer as we tried to write gesture recognition algorithms on a capacitive touch sensor that only had 6 pads (lol), that was interesting (and frustrating).
Do I enjoy my 9-5 now? Sure. But it isn't satisfying. Pushing the industry forward is satisfying. Building foundational technologies is satisfying. Fighting tooth and nail to make technology do the impossible, that is satisfying.
The most satisfying job I had as an software engineer had me working side by side with other amazing engineers, the types of people who have Wikipedia articles about the stuff they've accomplished in life.
Plenty of people work jobs earning less $ if they have an amazing group of people to work with. Sitting side by side with someone who is a catalyst for brilliance is worth a lot, because it adds a lot to your level of personal fulfillment.
> I work from home. My job is technically interesting, and I still learn/improve.
How much do you improve? How hard have you stretched yourself? I've worked with people who made me go far beyond what I thought I could ever do. That was technically interesting. Learning how to read clock diagrams and calculate memory access latencies to see if my algorithms could even run, that was technically interesting.
Working until 11pm at night listening to metal music sitting side by side with another engineer as we tried to write gesture recognition algorithms on a capacitive touch sensor that only had 6 pads (lol), that was interesting (and frustrating).
Do I enjoy my 9-5 now? Sure. But it isn't satisfying. Pushing the industry forward is satisfying. Building foundational technologies is satisfying. Fighting tooth and nail to make technology do the impossible, that is satisfying.
The people telling you to try stuff NOW, rather than later: 100%. Do not think "when I'm retired, I'll have time for this."
I'd always felt bad that I didn't practice and become a great guitar player in my teens and play in bands, like the guys I admired (and let's not even talk about the famous rock stars). So around age 40 I started singing, and then I took piano lessons. I got to be in choruses in some operas and operettas. Was this exactly my fantasy? No, but I at least got some proficiency, and got to perform in front of people who paid for it.
I found it wasn't all that great, for me, which I probably would have discovered in my 20s. But now I don't have that regret anymore. I did it.
Same for traveling: I've been to 26 countries. Coincidentally, travel sucks with COVID, so I couldn't do that now even if I wanted to. People who say "we'll travel when we retire" are kidding themselves. When you're in your late 60s, all you'll be up for is a cruise with other 60-somethings. Boring! And that's if you're even healthy enough.
I won't comment on all the other suggestions: therapy, meditation, helping others, your kids. Not that there's anything wrong with them, but hey -- I don't have all the answers for you.
I'd always felt bad that I didn't practice and become a great guitar player in my teens and play in bands, like the guys I admired (and let's not even talk about the famous rock stars). So around age 40 I started singing, and then I took piano lessons. I got to be in choruses in some operas and operettas. Was this exactly my fantasy? No, but I at least got some proficiency, and got to perform in front of people who paid for it.
I found it wasn't all that great, for me, which I probably would have discovered in my 20s. But now I don't have that regret anymore. I did it.
Same for traveling: I've been to 26 countries. Coincidentally, travel sucks with COVID, so I couldn't do that now even if I wanted to. People who say "we'll travel when we retire" are kidding themselves. When you're in your late 60s, all you'll be up for is a cruise with other 60-somethings. Boring! And that's if you're even healthy enough.
I won't comment on all the other suggestions: therapy, meditation, helping others, your kids. Not that there's anything wrong with them, but hey -- I don't have all the answers for you.
Bill Withers[1] is my hero for this. He enlisted in the Navy at 17 and while in the Navy found an interest in music. Left the navy at 27 and (while working a day job) recorded his first song at 29, with his first hit at 31 (The Grammy winning Ain't no Sunshine). At 45 he retired, citing creative differences with his label as the reason.
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Withers
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Withers
Thanks to your link, I found out there's a biopic about him, "Still Bill."
However, it's impossible to watch without paying a rental fee. Sorry, but IMHO music biopics about (relatively) obscure artists should be free. You can watch "The Quiet One" about Bill Wyman for free on Kanopy: a really excellent film.
However, it's impossible to watch without paying a rental fee. Sorry, but IMHO music biopics about (relatively) obscure artists should be free. You can watch "The Quiet One" about Bill Wyman for free on Kanopy: a really excellent film.
Never knew that about him.
Just a note, travel is pretty great now once you’re past the airline bullshit. I’ve been traveling for the last month through parts of Italy and Eastern Europe, all restrictions have been lifted and things aren’t as crowded as pre covid.
Good to know.
Focusing on other people will take your focus off yourself.
I have found satisfaction in helping others. The less personal time I have, the more I value it and the more satisfying life generally is. Also, this is very likely temporary, as your kids get older your life will change with them. They will have more and more adult and complicated life needs.
I found that forcing myself to do things differently based on other people's advice (especially when I didn't feel like it) often brought extremely unexpected results. But there is a massive inertia with changing who you are and the day to day choices you make.
I have found satisfaction in helping others. The less personal time I have, the more I value it and the more satisfying life generally is. Also, this is very likely temporary, as your kids get older your life will change with them. They will have more and more adult and complicated life needs.
I found that forcing myself to do things differently based on other people's advice (especially when I didn't feel like it) often brought extremely unexpected results. But there is a massive inertia with changing who you are and the day to day choices you make.
Helping others is the obvious purpose, at least for me. Easier said than done, though.
You've gotten some answers, some of them good, but I haven't seen this one yet and it changed my life.
You can accept that this feeling is normal - that your hunger for something more is insatiable, that this is just how things are and to accept it. That's one way to view it, sure, but do you really want to package that feeling up, box it, and push it away? You might push it so far down you lose sight of it and forget about it entirely. This can work for some, but these things have a habit of popping back up later in life with much more veracity. It can fester like a splinter in your mind.
What so many people are suggesting is foreclosing[1] on figuring out what you want. What gives your life meaning is completely aligned with figuring out what you want and who you are. You're in a great position to do just that - many people in recent years have found themselves in exactly the same position and reëvaluated their lives.
To do so, understand that finding your own meaning involves both a high degree of exploration and a low degree of certainty. When you find it, you'll know because you will feel a low degree of exploration and a high degree of certainty. Exploring what you need is a process of making hypotheses, trying them out, and evaluating their effects on yourself. Do they make you feel satisfied with your life, or do they leave you wanting more? If they leave you wanting more, keep exploring. You don't have to foreclose.
1. Marcia, J. E. (1980).
You can accept that this feeling is normal - that your hunger for something more is insatiable, that this is just how things are and to accept it. That's one way to view it, sure, but do you really want to package that feeling up, box it, and push it away? You might push it so far down you lose sight of it and forget about it entirely. This can work for some, but these things have a habit of popping back up later in life with much more veracity. It can fester like a splinter in your mind.
What so many people are suggesting is foreclosing[1] on figuring out what you want. What gives your life meaning is completely aligned with figuring out what you want and who you are. You're in a great position to do just that - many people in recent years have found themselves in exactly the same position and reëvaluated their lives.
To do so, understand that finding your own meaning involves both a high degree of exploration and a low degree of certainty. When you find it, you'll know because you will feel a low degree of exploration and a high degree of certainty. Exploring what you need is a process of making hypotheses, trying them out, and evaluating their effects on yourself. Do they make you feel satisfied with your life, or do they leave you wanting more? If they leave you wanting more, keep exploring. You don't have to foreclose.
1. Marcia, J. E. (1980).
Find something else to do that isn't work. Something you can look forward to leaving work for.
My dad stacked boxes of pickles for 30 years. I don't remember him complaining about work to my mom, or to us. I don't think he even ever looked for another job. He just went to work and came home at the end of the day.
My dad stacked boxes of pickles for 30 years. I don't remember him complaining about work to my mom, or to us. I don't think he even ever looked for another job. He just went to work and came home at the end of the day.
Try to unask the question. These sorts of existential questions usually contain huge assumptions within them. Here, the obvious one is that the assumption that it's possible to feel "enough" in life. A very similar question is "What is the meaning of life?" To phrase it that way makes it seem like there must be an answer, like "what is the meaning of 'cat'?" These are not really questions - they are emotions. You don't answer emotions - you sit with them, you share them with those closer to you, you process them, you get some sleep.
Contentment doesn't come externally: you summit one mountain, only to see others in the distance. Once you've climbed the tallest, what do you conquer next?
You're at the top of a mountain. You're in a great place. You can feel proud of this.
You now get to choose a new thing(s!) to conquer … as others have mentioned, maybe it's getting involved in an organization you believe in, maybe it's starting a project, heck maybe it's making pottery every day.
The feeling of satisfaction/"enough" is important to feel: you're becoming aware that you have more ambition/ability in the tank … but don't let it boss you around: use it to apply your attention to something you care about.
There's an unlimited amount of "more" to want. You'll never be satisfied with it. It's not about "settling down" … it's just that you've "solved" one part of your life well enough to be able to not worry about it for a while.
You're at the top of a mountain. You're in a great place. You can feel proud of this.
You now get to choose a new thing(s!) to conquer … as others have mentioned, maybe it's getting involved in an organization you believe in, maybe it's starting a project, heck maybe it's making pottery every day.
The feeling of satisfaction/"enough" is important to feel: you're becoming aware that you have more ambition/ability in the tank … but don't let it boss you around: use it to apply your attention to something you care about.
There's an unlimited amount of "more" to want. You'll never be satisfied with it. It's not about "settling down" … it's just that you've "solved" one part of your life well enough to be able to not worry about it for a while.
In the christian view earthly things will never statisfy us, as what we are seeking is the infinite. So only what is infinite can statisfy us, however there is only one such thing in existence: God.
People who have not realized this or do not want to realize this will be stuck restless going from one thing to another. As St. Augustine famously put it: "You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in you."
As for practical advice I cant offer much exept that you should build an awarness of how much is given in your life. Your job, your wealth, your wife, your kids are all given to you and can be taken from you again at any moment. Especially your life is something you did not merit by your own actions at all, life was given to you and it will be taken from you without you having much of a choice in it.
Obviously I recommend finding God, but there is no set "algorithm" for finding him. For some people its enough to be convinced intellectually, for some its not. I dont know you so I dont know what you would respond to. The only general thing I could say is that you should try to keep yourself open to God.
People who have not realized this or do not want to realize this will be stuck restless going from one thing to another. As St. Augustine famously put it: "You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in you."
As for practical advice I cant offer much exept that you should build an awarness of how much is given in your life. Your job, your wealth, your wife, your kids are all given to you and can be taken from you again at any moment. Especially your life is something you did not merit by your own actions at all, life was given to you and it will be taken from you without you having much of a choice in it.
Obviously I recommend finding God, but there is no set "algorithm" for finding him. For some people its enough to be convinced intellectually, for some its not. I dont know you so I dont know what you would respond to. The only general thing I could say is that you should try to keep yourself open to God.
I'm in a very similar situation, and I don't think it's the "hedonic treadmill" as others have suggested. I believe the key here is you saying "I dream about doing my own thing or retiring early to do other projects.".
I, personally, have a ton of different interests, yet have to spend most of my time doing only one (my job). I also help around the house, spend time with my wife and kids, etc. But that means very little time to pursue most of my interests (and when I have time, I don't always have the energy). I don't think you're wanting "more" in general, just more freedom to do other projects that interest you.
I know I personally yearn for the day I can retire and work on whatever I want. Unfortunately I won't be retiring early, so I'm doing all I can now to make sure I can retire comfortably and have the money I need to allow me to pursue my interests. To help in the meantime, I'm acknowledging each little victory towards that goal and also trying to organize/automate other things in my life to allow me to have more time now.
I, personally, have a ton of different interests, yet have to spend most of my time doing only one (my job). I also help around the house, spend time with my wife and kids, etc. But that means very little time to pursue most of my interests (and when I have time, I don't always have the energy). I don't think you're wanting "more" in general, just more freedom to do other projects that interest you.
I know I personally yearn for the day I can retire and work on whatever I want. Unfortunately I won't be retiring early, so I'm doing all I can now to make sure I can retire comfortably and have the money I need to allow me to pursue my interests. To help in the meantime, I'm acknowledging each little victory towards that goal and also trying to organize/automate other things in my life to allow me to have more time now.
You are experiencing normal human ambition. It’s natural to want more.
The important things I’ve done to make myself feel more satisfied in my life are:
- Be grateful for the things you have. Write about them in a journal, talk about them with your spouse, etc. - Give back. Donate money to a cause you care about, get your hands dirty volunteering, do something to make the world a little better. - Recognize that you’ll never be 100% satisfied and that’s OK. Continue moving up in your career, invest in keeping your relationships strong, etc. Don’t get lazy.
The important things I’ve done to make myself feel more satisfied in my life are:
- Be grateful for the things you have. Write about them in a journal, talk about them with your spouse, etc. - Give back. Donate money to a cause you care about, get your hands dirty volunteering, do something to make the world a little better. - Recognize that you’ll never be 100% satisfied and that’s OK. Continue moving up in your career, invest in keeping your relationships strong, etc. Don’t get lazy.
I would check out Cal Newport's recent "Deep Life" philosophy / manifesto that he's been blogging & podcasting about.
- https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2020/04/20/cultivating-a-dee...
- https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2020/03/17/the-deep-life-som...
He talks about building a life of your own choosing around the things that matter in some key buckets:
- Craft: usually your day job - Community: volunteering, religion, family, whatever it is for you - Constitution: mental, physical health - Contemplation: matters of the soul (reading philosophy, following a religion if that's relevant, reflecting, etc)
Also as many people have pointed out, the hedonic treadmill is real! There's nothing wrong with wanting to grow 1% in the core aspects of your life for the rest of your life. That seems like a life well lived to be honest!
But if you can wake up every day, look at your deep life playbook that you defined, internalize your own definitions of the 4 C's and then abide by those definitions ... then you can end each day knowing that you're living a "deep life" and hopefully gain some internal silence and gratitude!
Of course this is easier said than done :]
- https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2020/04/20/cultivating-a-dee...
- https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2020/03/17/the-deep-life-som...
He talks about building a life of your own choosing around the things that matter in some key buckets:
- Craft: usually your day job - Community: volunteering, religion, family, whatever it is for you - Constitution: mental, physical health - Contemplation: matters of the soul (reading philosophy, following a religion if that's relevant, reflecting, etc)
Also as many people have pointed out, the hedonic treadmill is real! There's nothing wrong with wanting to grow 1% in the core aspects of your life for the rest of your life. That seems like a life well lived to be honest!
But if you can wake up every day, look at your deep life playbook that you defined, internalize your own definitions of the 4 C's and then abide by those definitions ... then you can end each day knowing that you're living a "deep life" and hopefully gain some internal silence and gratitude!
Of course this is easier said than done :]
He makes some great point on deepwork and cites verifiable research. But you should be careful as he is totally against watching porn and worse favors religion.
check out maslow pyramid of needs. you're on level 3.
for me it goes something like:
1. body - food, water, shelter, sleep. check 2. safety - freedom, stability. check 3. love and belonging: friends & family. check 4. self realization: prestige, respect, achievements.. ???? that's your next step. 5. the dream: full complete realization of ones potential.
read up on this thing, check it out.
also maybe useful questions to ask:
1. how is my last month going to look like - how do I wanna die. invision it. 2. maybe think. what would you do if you only had week, month, year to live? maybe go do it? is it realy impossibly to do while paying mortgage? chances are it isnt.
also, maybe list things you like about yourself and things you dont like. wanna work on those you dont like?
1. body - food, water, shelter, sleep. check 2. safety - freedom, stability. check 3. love and belonging: friends & family. check 4. self realization: prestige, respect, achievements.. ???? that's your next step. 5. the dream: full complete realization of ones potential.
read up on this thing, check it out.
also maybe useful questions to ask:
1. how is my last month going to look like - how do I wanna die. invision it. 2. maybe think. what would you do if you only had week, month, year to live? maybe go do it? is it realy impossibly to do while paying mortgage? chances are it isnt.
also, maybe list things you like about yourself and things you dont like. wanna work on those you dont like?
This makes me think of Anthony Bourdain, the man who had probably the most envied job in the world, but still suffered from depression and took his own life.
A perfect job does not prevent or cure depression.
A perfect job does not prevent or cure depression.
Nice turn of phrase.
>A former user of cocaine, heroin, and LSD, Bourdain wrote in Kitchen Confidential of his experience in a SoHo restaurant in 1981, where he and his friends were often high. Bourdain said drugs influenced his decisions, and that he sent a busboy to Alphabet City to obtain cannabis, methaqualone, cocaine, LSD, psilocybin mushrooms, secobarbital, tuinal, amphetamine, codeine, and heroin.[125]
Well, a complex enough person, he was.
>A former user of cocaine, heroin, and LSD, Bourdain wrote in Kitchen Confidential of his experience in a SoHo restaurant in 1981, where he and his friends were often high. Bourdain said drugs influenced his decisions, and that he sent a busboy to Alphabet City to obtain cannabis, methaqualone, cocaine, LSD, psilocybin mushrooms, secobarbital, tuinal, amphetamine, codeine, and heroin.[125]
Well, a complex enough person, he was.
> A perfect job does not prevent or cure depression.
> Well, a complex enough person, he was.
I read Kitchen Confidential in 2008 when I was an undergrad and while working in catering; the truth is that that kitchens is where you will find some of the most broken and subsequently some of the most interesting people you will ever encounter. That sad reality is that substance abuse is often just a coping mechanism/self medication for unaddressed mental health issues.
I felt Bourdain was suicidal when I read KC back then, and to be honest when he killed himself I was on my last tour in kitchens and I was the only one not entirely shocked or surprised.
His life was marred with lots of demons, and his success was enviable for anyone who has ever worked line, but he could never get away from that simple fact. Roadrunner was interesting, but sadly entirely woeful because it reminded me how much progress was lost because the entire culinary industry was riding on just him and all the media attention he could garner. There were many lost projects that will never come to fruition, and to me that is was I feel was the real loss.
He as a person probably wanted to die this way his whole life, so I can't see why anyone would feel sorry for him.
> Well, a complex enough person, he was.
I read Kitchen Confidential in 2008 when I was an undergrad and while working in catering; the truth is that that kitchens is where you will find some of the most broken and subsequently some of the most interesting people you will ever encounter. That sad reality is that substance abuse is often just a coping mechanism/self medication for unaddressed mental health issues.
I felt Bourdain was suicidal when I read KC back then, and to be honest when he killed himself I was on my last tour in kitchens and I was the only one not entirely shocked or surprised.
His life was marred with lots of demons, and his success was enviable for anyone who has ever worked line, but he could never get away from that simple fact. Roadrunner was interesting, but sadly entirely woeful because it reminded me how much progress was lost because the entire culinary industry was riding on just him and all the media attention he could garner. There were many lost projects that will never come to fruition, and to me that is was I feel was the real loss.
He as a person probably wanted to die this way his whole life, so I can't see why anyone would feel sorry for him.
I wonder if his drug (ab)use was the cause or the result of his depression.
Throwing my hat into the ring here late, but I think it's OK to want more. Always be taking steps towards the next thing. If that's a promotion at work, start trying to include yourself in projects at that next level. If that's starting your own company, join a smaller company and take a more active role in the day-to-day; learn what you need to do to be successful out on your own. (My read is that you will spend a few months writing the code that you want to sell, and then the next 10 years convincing investors and customers to give you money.)
You should always be taking small steps towards the "next thing". Many people are perfectly happy not reaching for more or trying new things. They show up at work, do their 8 hours, and repeat for 30 years. That's totally fine, but I don't think you'd ask this question if that was your outlook.
You should always be taking small steps towards the "next thing". Many people are perfectly happy not reaching for more or trying new things. They show up at work, do their 8 hours, and repeat for 30 years. That's totally fine, but I don't think you'd ask this question if that was your outlook.
No this is not the dream.
You’re still in debt. You still owe society a lot of work. You want to finish paying the mortgage, send your kids to uni and start something without putting everything at risk.
Keep working. Keep working.
This is the american dream. Work does not liberate you from work. It allows you to set enough aside to retire all right.
The only way to get more is to risk more. These are the rules of the game. You could have had family money, but sadly you don’t so you have to risk that comfy situation to try and gain your financial independance.
It’s effed up
You’re still in debt. You still owe society a lot of work. You want to finish paying the mortgage, send your kids to uni and start something without putting everything at risk.
Keep working. Keep working.
This is the american dream. Work does not liberate you from work. It allows you to set enough aside to retire all right.
The only way to get more is to risk more. These are the rules of the game. You could have had family money, but sadly you don’t so you have to risk that comfy situation to try and gain your financial independance.
It’s effed up
I don't really understand this mentality.
At no point in human history, anywhere, has a life if easy idleness been a part of the deal.
The way I see it there's two choices. You can either work in a comfortable society with food at the supermarket, water in your pipes, and a roof over your head, or you can work in a harsh society struggling against nature every single day for food, water, and shelter.
Yes there are people in our society who basically don't work because they have so much money. It's unfair that some people have to labour physically while others can do nothing and claim the value of the people who work for them.
Even if we did create a society where everyone could afford to be idle every day, someone would have to produce the food. Someone would have to mine the resources to produce the luxuries we enjoy. Someone would have to produce the luxuries... You see where I'm going.
Idle, easy lives are not the baseline to compare against.
They are the absolute ceiling of privilege.
At no point in human history, anywhere, has a life if easy idleness been a part of the deal.
The way I see it there's two choices. You can either work in a comfortable society with food at the supermarket, water in your pipes, and a roof over your head, or you can work in a harsh society struggling against nature every single day for food, water, and shelter.
Yes there are people in our society who basically don't work because they have so much money. It's unfair that some people have to labour physically while others can do nothing and claim the value of the people who work for them.
Even if we did create a society where everyone could afford to be idle every day, someone would have to produce the food. Someone would have to mine the resources to produce the luxuries we enjoy. Someone would have to produce the luxuries... You see where I'm going.
Idle, easy lives are not the baseline to compare against.
They are the absolute ceiling of privilege.
Never in history has a commoner lived better than any of the feudal kings. Your average work from home yuppie has access to a warm home, door dash, video games, and online dating; betterments no longer akin to that of a king in their castle with their serf'd up veggies, lamely jesters, and brothel mismanagement and inbreeding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgKWNcs_20g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgKWNcs_20g
Absurd.
Never in history the world had the wealth and technology that exists now.
And yet your average work from home "yuppie" still has to work 40 hours a week doing SEO or fiddling with YAML to make some billionaire more rich.
"door dash" does not give meaning to your life and ultimately you'll not be happy if you feel you live as a cog in an unnecessary company making an unnecessary product.
And if that's not enough, feudal society was not destroying the planet.
So no, having video games and online dating are not enough. But the technoptimism of HN seems to be an untreatable disease at this point.
Never in history the world had the wealth and technology that exists now.
And yet your average work from home "yuppie" still has to work 40 hours a week doing SEO or fiddling with YAML to make some billionaire more rich.
"door dash" does not give meaning to your life and ultimately you'll not be happy if you feel you live as a cog in an unnecessary company making an unnecessary product.
And if that's not enough, feudal society was not destroying the planet.
So no, having video games and online dating are not enough. But the technoptimism of HN seems to be an untreatable disease at this point.
> And yet your average work from home "yuppie" still has to work 40 hours a week doing SEO or fiddling with YAML to make some billionaire more rich.
Again, the option to "not work" isn't real. That's an illusion you have been given. That 40 hours a week fixing YAML is not to make a billionaire richer (although it does), it's to have something that you can trade with people who produce your food. If you don't want to do the YAML, then grow the food yourself I guess? It will be a lot more than 40 hours a week and a lot harder work.
> "door dash" does not give meaning to your life and ultimately you'll not be happy if you feel you live as a cog in an unnecessary company making an unnecessary product
Idleness doesn't give meaning to your life either and ultimately you'll not be happy if you feel you've accomplished nothing in your life.
Being freed from working a job does not mean you will suddenly do something important. If it is important you will find the time in and among your 40-hour workweeks, or you will take big risks by not having a job so you can start it.
If you spend your weekends idle while working full time, you'll probably spend all of your time idle if you're unemployed. Seen this way too much to think otherwise. The people who are driven to do great things don't let employment stop them.
Again, the option to "not work" isn't real. That's an illusion you have been given. That 40 hours a week fixing YAML is not to make a billionaire richer (although it does), it's to have something that you can trade with people who produce your food. If you don't want to do the YAML, then grow the food yourself I guess? It will be a lot more than 40 hours a week and a lot harder work.
> "door dash" does not give meaning to your life and ultimately you'll not be happy if you feel you live as a cog in an unnecessary company making an unnecessary product
Idleness doesn't give meaning to your life either and ultimately you'll not be happy if you feel you've accomplished nothing in your life.
Being freed from working a job does not mean you will suddenly do something important. If it is important you will find the time in and among your 40-hour workweeks, or you will take big risks by not having a job so you can start it.
If you spend your weekends idle while working full time, you'll probably spend all of your time idle if you're unemployed. Seen this way too much to think otherwise. The people who are driven to do great things don't let employment stop them.
Good point
Yes the mortgage is a debt, but whatever it bought is the asset that balanced it out. You could sell the house, recoup your equity, and poof! no more debt.
I recently experienced something very similar. I became really depressed and sought therapy and psychiatric help. Medication helped get me out of my slump, and then therapy helped me work on the toxic mentalities that I had. I was able to talk through it and realize that I was attaching all my self worth to my job and achievements at work, which are very fleeting. So, I learned to compartmentalize my work as work, and started doing other things that weren't just about making money. I found that volunteering by picking up trash has been a great start for me. I am now working on becoming a computer teacher/aid for seniors. I realize now that I have my life squared away, it's time for me to help others, which is much, much more fulfilling than only caring about myself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill
It kind of sounds like you are coming from a baseline assumption that your job should be the most important thing in your life, the thing that gives you fulfillment. That can be true for some people but it isn't true for all people, perhaps not even most people, as much as HN would have you believe that it is.
You have to make your own happiness. All of this shit is fundamentally meaningless anyway, so start from there and figure out how you want to spend your time.
No one here can solve your ennui for you. Only advice I can give is start trying things, throwing shit at the wall and see what sticks.
It kind of sounds like you are coming from a baseline assumption that your job should be the most important thing in your life, the thing that gives you fulfillment. That can be true for some people but it isn't true for all people, perhaps not even most people, as much as HN would have you believe that it is.
You have to make your own happiness. All of this shit is fundamentally meaningless anyway, so start from there and figure out how you want to spend your time.
No one here can solve your ennui for you. Only advice I can give is start trying things, throwing shit at the wall and see what sticks.
A job is a prison. Yours is just very, very comfortable, compared to most jobs (and prisons). It's not wonder you still yearn to be out.
Have the same, thought it was normal turned out it’s not. It’s ADHD.
I was somewhat surprised, because for me and my family it was normal to be very heavy driven with the “next thing” and not something that’s obtained even though, similarly as you, I am I very good position in my life.
And yet, constant struggle to get more filled my life with junk and made my almost split with my wife (I suppose you can imagine how “constant improvement” affects partnership especially in context of one partner being fine with position they’re in).
So, yeah, my guess would be - go talk to the specialist about it. It’s not “normal” and if it’s ADHD it can be managed to some degree.
I was somewhat surprised, because for me and my family it was normal to be very heavy driven with the “next thing” and not something that’s obtained even though, similarly as you, I am I very good position in my life.
And yet, constant struggle to get more filled my life with junk and made my almost split with my wife (I suppose you can imagine how “constant improvement” affects partnership especially in context of one partner being fine with position they’re in).
So, yeah, my guess would be - go talk to the specialist about it. It’s not “normal” and if it’s ADHD it can be managed to some degree.
Do your own thing in a way that doesn't interfere with your job. Leave your job once it's making as much money as you need.
Edit: If you want advice on how to do that, share details of what you want to work on and I'll try to help.
Edit: You might not need to leave your job even once your thing is making as much money as you need.
Edit: If you want advice on how to do that, share details of what you want to work on and I'll try to help.
Edit: You might not need to leave your job even once your thing is making as much money as you need.
Lots of good advice in other comments, but a couple things I didn't see already that I will point out:
Your work from home situation might be too isolating. Asking to move to more contact with others might give you more satisfaction, or at least convince you DON'T want that and make you happier when you move back.
Sometimes just starting something new helps. I changed jobs last year after a successful decade+ run at my old job. My boss, trying to retain me said "you know there will be problems over there, too." My response was "yes, but at least they'll be new problems."
I think it is harder to choose between good choices for yourself then bad choices - choosing between a day taking the kids to the zoo versus making a significant work accomplishment is hard, you constantly wonder what you gave up to commit to the choice you did. Choosing between having to do an 8h drive in Arizona with no air conditioning versus having to go 3 days without food is easy - you don't look back at the end and wonder if you made the right choice, you know they were both miserable. It helps to get comfortable with owning your decisions - For example, I choose to spend more time with my kids because that's what I believe is right based on the information I have now. Being able to saw "I don't love this job, but I choose it because it empowers me to do other things" is empowering and helps me be more content overall.
Sometimes just starting something new helps. I changed jobs last year after a successful decade+ run at my old job. My boss, trying to retain me said "you know there will be problems over there, too." My response was "yes, but at least they'll be new problems."
I think it is harder to choose between good choices for yourself then bad choices - choosing between a day taking the kids to the zoo versus making a significant work accomplishment is hard, you constantly wonder what you gave up to commit to the choice you did. Choosing between having to do an 8h drive in Arizona with no air conditioning versus having to go 3 days without food is easy - you don't look back at the end and wonder if you made the right choice, you know they were both miserable. It helps to get comfortable with owning your decisions - For example, I choose to spend more time with my kids because that's what I believe is right based on the information I have now. Being able to saw "I don't love this job, but I choose it because it empowers me to do other things" is empowering and helps me be more content overall.
A bunch of people have mentioned the hedonic treadmill, but I'm not actually sure this is it, though there's not enough information to know. Maybe it is? But your situation just seems... Normal.
I guess it depends. I'm sort of in the situation you're in now. I think the question about the hedonic treadmill would be -- do you, in this happy house/wife/kids imagine another job where you'd be happier, a certain amount of money, a bigger house, a certain job title.
Or on the other hand, do you just have dreams? I'm sort of in your position, good wife, good job, good salary, good house, kiddo on the way. And I am happy with all those things. And I dream about the same thing as you. Doing my own thing or retiring early to do other projects.
I'm off the hedonic treadmill. I don't think a bigger house/more kids/more money will make me happier, but. Is "stability" really the only dream? I hope I never stop fantasizing about what could be in those real dreams I have. Making music, starting a company, traveling the world. There's a difference between having drive, and being dissatisfied with the good things in your life and wanting just a little bit more. If it's the latter. Well then yeah. I guess you're stuck, go listen to someone else :-P
I guess it depends. I'm sort of in the situation you're in now. I think the question about the hedonic treadmill would be -- do you, in this happy house/wife/kids imagine another job where you'd be happier, a certain amount of money, a bigger house, a certain job title.
Or on the other hand, do you just have dreams? I'm sort of in your position, good wife, good job, good salary, good house, kiddo on the way. And I am happy with all those things. And I dream about the same thing as you. Doing my own thing or retiring early to do other projects.
I'm off the hedonic treadmill. I don't think a bigger house/more kids/more money will make me happier, but. Is "stability" really the only dream? I hope I never stop fantasizing about what could be in those real dreams I have. Making music, starting a company, traveling the world. There's a difference between having drive, and being dissatisfied with the good things in your life and wanting just a little bit more. If it's the latter. Well then yeah. I guess you're stuck, go listen to someone else :-P
You sound kind of unconsciously lonely or self-centric here. I don't mean that as an insult, just as where your attention seems focused. You also sound a lot like me, so i'm almost certainly projecting a bit here...
I have noticed that I am, eventually, not very interesting to myself, but the world is, and being "involved in mankind" has much to recommend it.
Other people have made such observations.
David Foster Wallace:
the so-called real world will not discourage you from operating on your default settings, because the so-called real world of men and money and power hums merrily along in a pool of fear and anger and frustration and craving and worship of self. Our own present culture has harnessed these forces in ways that have yielded extraordinary wealth and comfort and personal freedom. The freedom all to be lords of our tiny skull-sized kingdoms, alone at the centre of all creation. This kind of freedom has much to recommend it. But of course there are all different kinds of freedom, and the kind that is most precious you will not hear much talk about much in the great outside world of wanting and achieving.
The really important kind of freedom involves attention and awareness and discipline, and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them over and over in myriad petty, unsexy ways every day.
That is real freedom. That is being educated, and understanding how to think. The alternative is unconsciousness, the default setting, the rat race, the constant gnawing sense of having had, and lost, some infinite thing.
Isaiah:
What I’m interested in seeing you do is: sharing your food with the hungry, inviting the homeless poor into your homes, putting clothes on the shivering ill-clad, being available to your own families.
Do this and the lights will turn on, and your lives will turn around at once.
I would suggest to you that you are feeling a call to service. It's worth answering not because it's "what you owe" or "because you have to", but because it keeps you alive and human. It's good in and of itself. It will delight and surprise you.
And if you're anything like me, it'll keep you out of your head all the time. And then the light can come in.
I have noticed that I am, eventually, not very interesting to myself, but the world is, and being "involved in mankind" has much to recommend it.
Other people have made such observations.
David Foster Wallace:
the so-called real world will not discourage you from operating on your default settings, because the so-called real world of men and money and power hums merrily along in a pool of fear and anger and frustration and craving and worship of self. Our own present culture has harnessed these forces in ways that have yielded extraordinary wealth and comfort and personal freedom. The freedom all to be lords of our tiny skull-sized kingdoms, alone at the centre of all creation. This kind of freedom has much to recommend it. But of course there are all different kinds of freedom, and the kind that is most precious you will not hear much talk about much in the great outside world of wanting and achieving.
The really important kind of freedom involves attention and awareness and discipline, and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them over and over in myriad petty, unsexy ways every day.
That is real freedom. That is being educated, and understanding how to think. The alternative is unconsciousness, the default setting, the rat race, the constant gnawing sense of having had, and lost, some infinite thing.
Isaiah:
What I’m interested in seeing you do is: sharing your food with the hungry, inviting the homeless poor into your homes, putting clothes on the shivering ill-clad, being available to your own families.
Do this and the lights will turn on, and your lives will turn around at once.
I would suggest to you that you are feeling a call to service. It's worth answering not because it's "what you owe" or "because you have to", but because it keeps you alive and human. It's good in and of itself. It will delight and surprise you.
And if you're anything like me, it'll keep you out of your head all the time. And then the light can come in.
Take psychedelics and meditate together with your life-long partner and to discover some long neglected parts of your body and cells and sensors as you sense the universe
As within so without
As above so below
It is through a greater discovery of your physical manifestation that you gain deeper Insight into the fabrics of reality
What a wonder it is to be alive
The present is a gift from the world
Time is ephemeral. We all leave eventually. Before that, bring gifts into this world the way the world has upon you!
As within so without
As above so below
It is through a greater discovery of your physical manifestation that you gain deeper Insight into the fabrics of reality
What a wonder it is to be alive
The present is a gift from the world
Time is ephemeral. We all leave eventually. Before that, bring gifts into this world the way the world has upon you!
Thanks for your post. What psychedelic would you recommend for this?
The most meaningful thing I've found in the world is to help others. But I think good intentions are not enough - it is important to care about how effectively you help others. So I recommend Effective Altruism - a community of people working on making the world a better place while focusing on effectiveness of their actions.
https://www.effectivealtruism.org/
For over 10 years I've been giving at least 10% of my income to cost-effective charities (see GiveWell for recommendations https://www.givewell.org ). There are thousands of people doing the same, you should join in:
https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/
Finally, on the topic of happiness, read up on Positive Psychology to learn how to extract more enjoyment / eudaemonia out of life. Start by reading books by Ph.D. researchers (e.g. The How of Happiness, Stumbling on Happiness, etc).
https://www.effectivealtruism.org/
For over 10 years I've been giving at least 10% of my income to cost-effective charities (see GiveWell for recommendations https://www.givewell.org ). There are thousands of people doing the same, you should join in:
https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/
Finally, on the topic of happiness, read up on Positive Psychology to learn how to extract more enjoyment / eudaemonia out of life. Start by reading books by Ph.D. researchers (e.g. The How of Happiness, Stumbling on Happiness, etc).
Can you give any advice on how to get in the right mindset to give significant part of your income to charity? Or did you have no trouble deciding that? I understand how fortunate I am, but I cannot convince myself to give.
I came to the US from Russia at the age of 11; it probably helped me recognize how fortunate I was. Later, learning about the extreme poverty that exists in the world (far surpassing what I saw in Russia) I realized how much more fortunate I was to have had the luck of being born where I was.
One way to conceptualize things is that you are a consciousness that has won the birth lottery - being born into a well-off family, or at least a family in a rich country. I don't believe in souls - this is just a way of thinking; a hypothetical to imagine, akin to "what if I was born a minority, or a member of some persecuted group". The realization that you could have been unlucky may help empathize with those less fortunate.
Branko Milanovic, a world economist focusing on income (inequality) points out that 3 of the biggest contributors to one's income are (a) the country you are born into, (b) the income/wealth of the family you are born into, and (c) the gender. Note that all three are not something one can choose. So the "lottery" of life I describe isn't just metaphorical.
I don't think I would be willing to give 10% of my income if I didn't learn about how cost-effective charity can be. For example, with a $0.50 donation to SCI a child will be provided an anti-worm pill - curing and preventing parasitic worm infections for about a year (see GiveWell to learn more).
I recommend reading the short but super-influential essay "Famine, Affluence, and Morality" by Peter Singer. And after that, read some books by him too.
https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/get-involved/videos-books-an...
One way to conceptualize things is that you are a consciousness that has won the birth lottery - being born into a well-off family, or at least a family in a rich country. I don't believe in souls - this is just a way of thinking; a hypothetical to imagine, akin to "what if I was born a minority, or a member of some persecuted group". The realization that you could have been unlucky may help empathize with those less fortunate.
Branko Milanovic, a world economist focusing on income (inequality) points out that 3 of the biggest contributors to one's income are (a) the country you are born into, (b) the income/wealth of the family you are born into, and (c) the gender. Note that all three are not something one can choose. So the "lottery" of life I describe isn't just metaphorical.
I don't think I would be willing to give 10% of my income if I didn't learn about how cost-effective charity can be. For example, with a $0.50 donation to SCI a child will be provided an anti-worm pill - curing and preventing parasitic worm infections for about a year (see GiveWell to learn more).
I recommend reading the short but super-influential essay "Famine, Affluence, and Morality" by Peter Singer. And after that, read some books by him too.
https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/get-involved/videos-books-an...
Try volunteering and being around those less fortunate than you. I volunteered once at a cancer center for a summer and being around ppl who literally have a few months to live really does make you put everything in perspective.
What worked for me was two things: calculating my number and tracking all of my expenses.
I did that listing everything that I wanted that would make me and my wife happy, calculating the yearly cost of those things, and dividing that by the average yearly rate of return for a plain old index fund portfolio, which was 4% at the time.
When I did this six years ago, my number was $5M. Which is a lot, but is also not very much. I can't find the spreadsheet now, but it included things like:
- A $700,000 house in Highland Park, Dallas (houses are >$1M now, which is still a bargain if you're coming from the Bay)
- Two cars totaling about $150,000
- $30,000/year in vacations
- A large spending budget
I knew that short of starting a startup and it getting an exit (and me not getting screwed by my investors or partners), the only way I'd be able to hit this is to get as close to where the money is made as I can and being ruthless about comp negotiation.
Tracking all of my expenses has helped me visually see where the lifestyle inflation is happening and determine what things I should invest more into or cut out of my life. It has also made forecasting big future purchases much easier, as I can see how the purchase will impact me with a very high degree of confidence. This somehow makes me attaining that thing more real, which helps drive me towards taking opportunities that will yield more comp.
I don't believe in "be happy with what you have." That's what those with say to those without to make them "feel better" that they didn't win the life lottery. I say "always chase more, but know what 'more' is so that you know where to stop!"
I did that listing everything that I wanted that would make me and my wife happy, calculating the yearly cost of those things, and dividing that by the average yearly rate of return for a plain old index fund portfolio, which was 4% at the time.
When I did this six years ago, my number was $5M. Which is a lot, but is also not very much. I can't find the spreadsheet now, but it included things like:
- A $700,000 house in Highland Park, Dallas (houses are >$1M now, which is still a bargain if you're coming from the Bay)
- Two cars totaling about $150,000
- $30,000/year in vacations
- A large spending budget
I knew that short of starting a startup and it getting an exit (and me not getting screwed by my investors or partners), the only way I'd be able to hit this is to get as close to where the money is made as I can and being ruthless about comp negotiation.
Tracking all of my expenses has helped me visually see where the lifestyle inflation is happening and determine what things I should invest more into or cut out of my life. It has also made forecasting big future purchases much easier, as I can see how the purchase will impact me with a very high degree of confidence. This somehow makes me attaining that thing more real, which helps drive me towards taking opportunities that will yield more comp.
I don't believe in "be happy with what you have." That's what those with say to those without to make them "feel better" that they didn't win the life lottery. I say "always chase more, but know what 'more' is so that you know where to stop!"
Your job is giving you enough to live on ad time to spend on other things. Focus on giving your children the best start in life by spending time with them now. They are only young for a brief time, and you cannot go back and undo neglect later.
I was fortunate to be able to work from home when my boys were young, and I learned a lot (See https://www.skmurphy.com/blog/2014/07/27/things-i-have-learn... ) and have good relationships with them now that they are in their late 20's. I have acquaintances who did not put in the time and now regret it. Their children and grandchildren are not in their lives.
I was fortunate to be able to work from home when my boys were young, and I learned a lot (See https://www.skmurphy.com/blog/2014/07/27/things-i-have-learn... ) and have good relationships with them now that they are in their late 20's. I have acquaintances who did not put in the time and now regret it. Their children and grandchildren are not in their lives.
Sounds like the job is technically interesting, but doesn’t really have deeper purpose. Maybe find a job where you’d feel you’re doing something meaningful?
I wonder if you subconsciously crave more contact with your colleagues and clients. Perhaps try to up this over a few weeks see how you feel after.
I agree. It can be that "simple". My experience during/after lockdowns.
I see people who 'arrive' at something they have been working towards often disappointed. You may have been working towards this state for longer than you realised. These states are usually defined by a list of things - they can be material, or more abstract. You've valued them up until now, but now you've realised they aren't great values, not worthy of life motivation.
It doesn't mean they are bad things, and it doesn't mean you need to uproot your whole life to make yourself happy. But maybe you need to look around you, ser what you enjoy, what you think is important now.. What are your real values, and then your decisions in the future can help you lead a fulfilling life.
It doesn't mean they are bad things, and it doesn't mean you need to uproot your whole life to make yourself happy. But maybe you need to look around you, ser what you enjoy, what you think is important now.. What are your real values, and then your decisions in the future can help you lead a fulfilling life.
I used to worry about never being satisfied. Then I hit some burnout where I had no ambition and was depressed. It is much better to keep wanting more. Wanting more means you are alive and motivated. Nurture and continue to enjoy that feeling.
I've had those feelings before and here is what helps me.
Everyday I make a point of being thankful for something or someone. Maybe someone put extra effort in at work, maybe my kids were really well behaved, maybe I really enjoyed dinner, maybe my wife told me a really funny story. Whatever it is, big or small, I try to show my gratitude to people around me and to myself. At first I started by writing them down in a log, then at the end of the week I would look through them. This turned out to be really important to me, seeing the concrete instead of the abstract really changed my outlook.
Everyday I make a point of being thankful for something or someone. Maybe someone put extra effort in at work, maybe my kids were really well behaved, maybe I really enjoyed dinner, maybe my wife told me a really funny story. Whatever it is, big or small, I try to show my gratitude to people around me and to myself. At first I started by writing them down in a log, then at the end of the week I would look through them. This turned out to be really important to me, seeing the concrete instead of the abstract really changed my outlook.
Because...
“A ship in harbour is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.” John A Shedd 1928
“A ship in harbour is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.” John A Shedd 1928
36, I had this, I was running a design team of a successful startup who had just raised around 2 million.
I quit.
I felt unfulfilled with the excitement and possibility, because life for me lacked meaning. I studied how to be a yoga teacher, focussed on my body and not my mind. I changed my diet to be a lot more veg and I moved out of London.
I have less money, less power, but feel happier. I just worked out that the grind wasn't for me and I enjoyed doing different simple things. I now work as a consultant 6 months of the year and take 6 months off.
Do what feels right for you. Everything feels the way it does for a reason.
I quit.
I felt unfulfilled with the excitement and possibility, because life for me lacked meaning. I studied how to be a yoga teacher, focussed on my body and not my mind. I changed my diet to be a lot more veg and I moved out of London.
I have less money, less power, but feel happier. I just worked out that the grind wasn't for me and I enjoyed doing different simple things. I now work as a consultant 6 months of the year and take 6 months off.
Do what feels right for you. Everything feels the way it does for a reason.
My friend I am in the same way. I am about to be 30 soon, working 1 - 2 hours 95% of the time, 0 calls or meetings that I don't dictate, no manager / quarterly reviews / 1on1s / etc.
All this while making north of $300k, and I still am not satisfied and looking for more. I grew up poor on food stamps and busted myself for minimum wage and was happy. Now I'm here with almost no work, lots of respect at work, great pay, big house with pool, and I just feel like I want more.
All this while making north of $300k, and I still am not satisfied and looking for more. I grew up poor on food stamps and busted myself for minimum wage and was happy. Now I'm here with almost no work, lots of respect at work, great pay, big house with pool, and I just feel like I want more.
Sounds like an addiction almost. Addictions are often a signal of something being wrong or off-balance in life.
True, that's an interesting perspective. I do struggle with substance abuse / video game addiction so I can see the relation.
> ...I work from home. My job is technically interesting, and I still learn/improve. I do not have meetings. One or sometimes two 30 min calls a week with my boss. Most days, I do not have to interact with anyone from work, not even customer contact...
@perfectjob This job sounds great; good for you! I have felt many times what you have felt...and some people close to me have wondered if maybe in my case it was some sort of mild depression. Have you considered speaking with a professional? I should emphasize that this might not be any sort of mild depression but the "American way", as others have eluded, where reaching a partocular level makes one feel like it might noe be "enough" (whatever that means).
By the way, may i ask if you wouldn't mind sharing a bit more what your job entails? I'm a little older, and admittedly at a different stage of life, but your role sounds like what i might like...maybe, depending on what you actually do for your living. If you don't want to share here, feel free to email me privately. (My address can be obtained by viewing my HN profile.) Thanks, and I hope that you feel better! As others tell me: life isn't as bad or as boring or as unfulfilling as you might think! :-)
@perfectjob This job sounds great; good for you! I have felt many times what you have felt...and some people close to me have wondered if maybe in my case it was some sort of mild depression. Have you considered speaking with a professional? I should emphasize that this might not be any sort of mild depression but the "American way", as others have eluded, where reaching a partocular level makes one feel like it might noe be "enough" (whatever that means).
By the way, may i ask if you wouldn't mind sharing a bit more what your job entails? I'm a little older, and admittedly at a different stage of life, but your role sounds like what i might like...maybe, depending on what you actually do for your living. If you don't want to share here, feel free to email me privately. (My address can be obtained by viewing my HN profile.) Thanks, and I hope that you feel better! As others tell me: life isn't as bad or as boring or as unfulfilling as you might think! :-)
What you describe seems to be a lack of setting a personal goal for yourself. A goal that gives you a sense of purpose and personal growth.
Things you considered fantastic when you where younger are, of course, still fantastic (if not to you then certainly to somebody else). Once you achieved these things, you realized that many of these things are still very important but more similar to carrying a responsibility than providing a sense of fulfillment beyond this responsibility.
It is probably fine to not have any meetings, but how many meaningful conversation do you have with people you care outside of your family (at the job, while enjoying a hobby, when talking to people in your neighborhood) on a regular basis?
What is certainly human is to reflect on paths taken, to think about possibilities, to think about what could have been. This is natural but not necessarily very helpful. The key is not to live in the past or to live in the future... the key is to live in the present and learn to see and enjoy the good moments in life while they last.
You wrote you have a good relationship with your wife and that you have healthy kids. Congratulations! You are blessed with something you can`t buy with money or status. Make the most out of it.
Things you considered fantastic when you where younger are, of course, still fantastic (if not to you then certainly to somebody else). Once you achieved these things, you realized that many of these things are still very important but more similar to carrying a responsibility than providing a sense of fulfillment beyond this responsibility.
It is probably fine to not have any meetings, but how many meaningful conversation do you have with people you care outside of your family (at the job, while enjoying a hobby, when talking to people in your neighborhood) on a regular basis?
What is certainly human is to reflect on paths taken, to think about possibilities, to think about what could have been. This is natural but not necessarily very helpful. The key is not to live in the past or to live in the future... the key is to live in the present and learn to see and enjoy the good moments in life while they last.
You wrote you have a good relationship with your wife and that you have healthy kids. Congratulations! You are blessed with something you can`t buy with money or status. Make the most out of it.
Spend as much time as you can with your young kids.
Most opportunities will come again - that one won't.
Most opportunities will come again - that one won't.
Practicing gratitude for what you have is of course wise, and there are techniques that are helpful...gratitude journals, meditation, etc can be helpful.
However when I read your post it sounds to me like perhaps the issue is not a failure to be sufficiently grateful for what you have. It sounds like there is some desire, deep within you, that is going unmet. You have checked off everything from your list of Stuff You Thought You Wanted and yet something is still missing. It seems likely to me that that something is in fact missing.
You say "it's never enough", you "want more". But what exactly is it that you're wanting? What's the "enough" that it isn't? If you can look closely at that feeling with real curiosity and some gentleness...maybe there's a clue there as to what's going on. What's the reality that is going on (eg. "I'm often feeling deep failure and shame", a fact) vs. what's the narrative you're telling yourself ("Nothing is ever enough for me", a judgement you're making)?
However when I read your post it sounds to me like perhaps the issue is not a failure to be sufficiently grateful for what you have. It sounds like there is some desire, deep within you, that is going unmet. You have checked off everything from your list of Stuff You Thought You Wanted and yet something is still missing. It seems likely to me that that something is in fact missing.
You say "it's never enough", you "want more". But what exactly is it that you're wanting? What's the "enough" that it isn't? If you can look closely at that feeling with real curiosity and some gentleness...maybe there's a clue there as to what's going on. What's the reality that is going on (eg. "I'm often feeling deep failure and shame", a fact) vs. what's the narrative you're telling yourself ("Nothing is ever enough for me", a judgement you're making)?
Because it's work, that is to say, "muck" and it never feels the same as doing one's one projects or just hanging with one's family. Which is why, unlike those pursuits, it converts, almost like a liquid, into money. Which, in turn, converts into time -- to spend with one's family now, or to work on one's projects some fine day in the future.
Or that is: in theory, to exactly what you are most interested in after all -- or a close proxy to it.
How did you settle and slow down and become happy with the way it is without always wanting more?
Others posting here seem to have better answers on the broader philosophical front. But raw in raw practical terms, you can start by acknowledging, every day, just how lucky you are that you (1) have a family and (2) unlike many in this industry, genuinely don't seem to give a flying F that you are making merely "over 100k" (when we are told we all should be making 300k after a few years, and shouldn't be working at all after 10 years or so in this industry).
Very lucky indeed.
Or that is: in theory, to exactly what you are most interested in after all -- or a close proxy to it.
How did you settle and slow down and become happy with the way it is without always wanting more?
Others posting here seem to have better answers on the broader philosophical front. But raw in raw practical terms, you can start by acknowledging, every day, just how lucky you are that you (1) have a family and (2) unlike many in this industry, genuinely don't seem to give a flying F that you are making merely "over 100k" (when we are told we all should be making 300k after a few years, and shouldn't be working at all after 10 years or so in this industry).
Very lucky indeed.
I've found that living through my job was never going to be ultimately satisfying. I enjoy my job well enough, and I've been at the same one now for 28 years, but it's not where I look for fulfillment. Instead I focus my needs for exploration, meaning, social connection, and creative energy into hobbies. A hobby is much easier to change or entirely dump without much consequence when it is no longer satisfying. I've played around with and very much enjoyed classic cars, watch repair, old clocks, beer brewing, fishing, firearms, archery, hunting, cooking, volunteering at a hospital, volunteering at a museum, and plenty more. All of them allowed me to learn something new, meet new people, and just overall enjoy a new journey. And when my interest waned (and it did naturally on all of it) I just happily closed the book and moved on, sometimes coming back to something, sometimes not. And as a bonus, the friendships I made each time still continue on.
> I dream about doing my own thing or retiring early to do other projects. It is probably human to always want more.
So tell your company that you're leaving them for a while to spend time with your family. Go do stuff and see if you can find what's important to you.
Leave on good terms, wrap up any projects, in the hopes they'd have you back in the future. People will 100% understand if you say you want to spend time with young kids, but it can actually be about "retiring early to do other projects".
That's probably the most pragmatic way to satisfy your "why".
> It is probably human to always want more.
I think people are most happy when they are wanting more, ideally striving to be the best at something they care about. Most great artists and athletes are like that.
I have a theory that our employment system hijacks this by providing a small salary for distraction and artificial challenges and rewards for retention.
Many of us learn that we need to "slow down and become happy" once we've achieved enough career challenges. Somehow we should be content in our positions and pay, but paradoxically fearful of unemployment.
If that's the space you occupy, you're simply underfunded and may actually need to "speed up".
Also, if you have children, and you don't want their lives to be difficult, you may want to consider expanding your safety net to include future generations. You may need to really start hustling if you think about your family's long term goals.
> If I knew I could have a job like this ten years ago, I would have thought that's it, the dream.
At the risk of challenging your dreams, it may not be an accident that we are taught to dream of labor.
So tell your company that you're leaving them for a while to spend time with your family. Go do stuff and see if you can find what's important to you.
Leave on good terms, wrap up any projects, in the hopes they'd have you back in the future. People will 100% understand if you say you want to spend time with young kids, but it can actually be about "retiring early to do other projects".
That's probably the most pragmatic way to satisfy your "why".
> It is probably human to always want more.
I think people are most happy when they are wanting more, ideally striving to be the best at something they care about. Most great artists and athletes are like that.
I have a theory that our employment system hijacks this by providing a small salary for distraction and artificial challenges and rewards for retention.
Many of us learn that we need to "slow down and become happy" once we've achieved enough career challenges. Somehow we should be content in our positions and pay, but paradoxically fearful of unemployment.
If that's the space you occupy, you're simply underfunded and may actually need to "speed up".
Also, if you have children, and you don't want their lives to be difficult, you may want to consider expanding your safety net to include future generations. You may need to really start hustling if you think about your family's long term goals.
> If I knew I could have a job like this ten years ago, I would have thought that's it, the dream.
At the risk of challenging your dreams, it may not be an accident that we are taught to dream of labor.
I am a relentless optimiser and someone whose mind immediately always goes to how a situation can be improved or how I can achieve more.
I became happy when I realised none of that shit has remotely anything to do with happiness, which is a state of mind and to some extent a choice.
I’m still a relentless optimiser and just as driven (maybe more so). But when it comes to happiness, rather than allow myself to believe I’ll be unhappy until I achieve X or solve problem Y, I now optimise for finding the path and the narrative[1] I can tell myself that will make me happy with things as they are.
The bonus is it’s easier to do more and optimise the crap out of anything when you’re happy doing it.
Good luck! I sincerely hope you get past this, whatever the solution.
P.S. similar to how others have commented, I’ve also found focusing on others to be incredibly helping in framing that narrative and thinking about my life
[1] to me this has been super key— it is all about framing, and the stories I repeatedly tell myself about my situation and the world around me.
I became happy when I realised none of that shit has remotely anything to do with happiness, which is a state of mind and to some extent a choice.
I’m still a relentless optimiser and just as driven (maybe more so). But when it comes to happiness, rather than allow myself to believe I’ll be unhappy until I achieve X or solve problem Y, I now optimise for finding the path and the narrative[1] I can tell myself that will make me happy with things as they are.
The bonus is it’s easier to do more and optimise the crap out of anything when you’re happy doing it.
Good luck! I sincerely hope you get past this, whatever the solution.
P.S. similar to how others have commented, I’ve also found focusing on others to be incredibly helping in framing that narrative and thinking about my life
[1] to me this has been super key— it is all about framing, and the stories I repeatedly tell myself about my situation and the world around me.
I'm going to go with a contrarian take here and just say: It's OK and even mentally healthy to want always more.
As long as you are not giving up your health or your family in the process, I think career wise it's always a good idea to be looking for more. Either an even better job, or to create passive income to not have to work anymore. But many of us feel the "happiest" when we are working towards a specific goal for a brighter future.
Whether we reach or don't reach the goal doesn't matter as much as just feeling the struggle and the improvement. You are just currently in such a comfort zone that feel like this is the "end", but it isn't. You can aim for more and it is ok. And paradoxically you will feel better in your current situation, when you know it's temporary and when you are already working towards a different/better future.
As long as you are not giving up your health or your family in the process, I think career wise it's always a good idea to be looking for more. Either an even better job, or to create passive income to not have to work anymore. But many of us feel the "happiest" when we are working towards a specific goal for a brighter future.
Whether we reach or don't reach the goal doesn't matter as much as just feeling the struggle and the improvement. You are just currently in such a comfort zone that feel like this is the "end", but it isn't. You can aim for more and it is ok. And paradoxically you will feel better in your current situation, when you know it's temporary and when you are already working towards a different/better future.
I've felt this before. In fact, I end up in this position everytime I'm in a job where the company is larger than 200 folks, the goals are corporate, and there never seems to be an "end" to the work. I'd say it's easy to be disconnected from the impact you have on people when you're working a job.
One thing I found that really helped was working on my own projects. The level of satisfaction you feel after directly helping someone (or multiple folks) solve a problem that's been bothering them (either in business or personal) can't be replicated from any job.
Some people will say settle, or bring up hedonic treadmills or w/e but i would encourage you to start scratching that itch to do your own thing. Find folks who have a problem you think/know you can help them solve and then do it. Take the plunge and experience how it feels to help someone with something you built of your own effort and time.
One thing I found that really helped was working on my own projects. The level of satisfaction you feel after directly helping someone (or multiple folks) solve a problem that's been bothering them (either in business or personal) can't be replicated from any job.
Some people will say settle, or bring up hedonic treadmills or w/e but i would encourage you to start scratching that itch to do your own thing. Find folks who have a problem you think/know you can help them solve and then do it. Take the plunge and experience how it feels to help someone with something you built of your own effort and time.
I appreciate the thoughtfulness and introspection in your question.
I have found that different types of activities bring me joy/energy/fulfillment, and others do not. Identifying which activities do this for me took a few years of thought, coupled with asking people who know me well about what they observe. I realized about 10 years ago that I'm most fulfilled when I'm teaching - literally leading a formal learning session with students. I find opportunities to do some of this in my work (I'm a co-founder with tons of autonomy in my role), but ultimately I've decided that my job is the means to open up more doors to teach. I'm getting an MBA to open the door to be an adjunct professor in business.
I share this because once you know what activities bring you joy/energy/fulfillment, you can rearrange your life to maximize how much time you spend doing those things.
I have found that different types of activities bring me joy/energy/fulfillment, and others do not. Identifying which activities do this for me took a few years of thought, coupled with asking people who know me well about what they observe. I realized about 10 years ago that I'm most fulfilled when I'm teaching - literally leading a formal learning session with students. I find opportunities to do some of this in my work (I'm a co-founder with tons of autonomy in my role), but ultimately I've decided that my job is the means to open up more doors to teach. I'm getting an MBA to open the door to be an adjunct professor in business.
I share this because once you know what activities bring you joy/energy/fulfillment, you can rearrange your life to maximize how much time you spend doing those things.
My two cents (as someone who definitely does not have all the answers, but is learning as I get older):
1) Know that this is a completely normal feeling, especially in more individualistic/atomized cultures where status competitions are more pronounced.
2) YOU have the answer to your question, it's just a matter of uncovering it. I would recommend writing/journaling. Spend a lot of quiet time exploring your thoughts, and asking probing questions of yourself. "Why do I want to do more? What do I think will happen once I do those projects? How will that feel? etc." If I were to guess, some of the story may be around the drive for increased social status. But I can only speculate.
3) Remember you are a human with a physical body/needs, stay attuned to it. Move your body, exercise, go outside and breathe in fresh air, eat well, play with your kids/family/friends. Working remote and on a computer is incredibly convenient, but sometimes it removes our attention from the physical world.
4) Be BIG in your very SMALL world, forget about trying to be BIG in the BIG world - If there's any part of you that thinks about how what you accomplish looks to others and how it'll reflect on your relative status/legacy, I'd recommend making your world smaller/more local. The internet/media shows us what outliers are doing all around the world at all times, and it can make whatever we're doing feel so miniscule in comparison. You'll never 'Win' the global status games, nobody can really. Focus on your very small part of the world, your family, your friends, your local community. How can you be the best parent/spouse/neighbor to them? Being good here has the highest ROI once you've let go of the global status games (which you'll be forced to let go of at some point). For creative projects - what will bring YOU or those closest to you joy? Forget about thinking about how anything you build will scale broadly/globally.
1) Know that this is a completely normal feeling, especially in more individualistic/atomized cultures where status competitions are more pronounced.
2) YOU have the answer to your question, it's just a matter of uncovering it. I would recommend writing/journaling. Spend a lot of quiet time exploring your thoughts, and asking probing questions of yourself. "Why do I want to do more? What do I think will happen once I do those projects? How will that feel? etc." If I were to guess, some of the story may be around the drive for increased social status. But I can only speculate.
3) Remember you are a human with a physical body/needs, stay attuned to it. Move your body, exercise, go outside and breathe in fresh air, eat well, play with your kids/family/friends. Working remote and on a computer is incredibly convenient, but sometimes it removes our attention from the physical world.
4) Be BIG in your very SMALL world, forget about trying to be BIG in the BIG world - If there's any part of you that thinks about how what you accomplish looks to others and how it'll reflect on your relative status/legacy, I'd recommend making your world smaller/more local. The internet/media shows us what outliers are doing all around the world at all times, and it can make whatever we're doing feel so miniscule in comparison. You'll never 'Win' the global status games, nobody can really. Focus on your very small part of the world, your family, your friends, your local community. How can you be the best parent/spouse/neighbor to them? Being good here has the highest ROI once you've let go of the global status games (which you'll be forced to let go of at some point). For creative projects - what will bring YOU or those closest to you joy? Forget about thinking about how anything you build will scale broadly/globally.
I've had / am having a similar experience. One of the things I've come to realize -- and I'm not suggesting this is your problem, but it could be -- is that I often compare myself to other people who I gauge as having a level of "success" (a poorly defined term) that I would like to have. I've found that these kinds of comparisons aren't helpful for me, and I haven't really optimized my life around my career anyway. I was (and maybe still am) looking to project the same kind of success for no good reason. In turn, I've learned to really look inward and think about the kinds of things that "recharge my batteries" -- spending time with my family, working on hobbies that provide me a creative outlet, and not setting really high, unreachable expectations for myself. Hope this is helpful.
You have assumed a strong association with things you've acquired or achieved with your source of satisfaction with life.
You achieved the job and relationships you want, and you expect that to "take care of" your happiness.
You'll have to unlearn this. It certainly doesn't hurt. In fact, it really sets you up to have all the resources you need to learn what really does satisfy you in life. You have the needs met, and the support group you care about, and that cares about you.
But there's always new projects to try, new skills to develop, new areas of knowledge to learn.
Try things, and see if they give you short-term joy and longer term satisfaction. See if there are activities you're happy to do over and over, so that you're not bound to the rewards of novelty. See if certain active hobbies require a long time to master, and if you enjoy that process.
You achieved the job and relationships you want, and you expect that to "take care of" your happiness.
You'll have to unlearn this. It certainly doesn't hurt. In fact, it really sets you up to have all the resources you need to learn what really does satisfy you in life. You have the needs met, and the support group you care about, and that cares about you.
But there's always new projects to try, new skills to develop, new areas of knowledge to learn.
Try things, and see if they give you short-term joy and longer term satisfaction. See if there are activities you're happy to do over and over, so that you're not bound to the rewards of novelty. See if certain active hobbies require a long time to master, and if you enjoy that process.
I was in the same situation, but even better. I was making $350,000/yr, promoted to software architect of a 100 person team, was working on interesting problems, was well liked by everyone in the office, had lots of good friends at work, and only needed to work a few hours a day, was able to decide what projects I wanted to work on.... it was a dream.
I quit to join a startup. Huge mistake. I quit the startup to take time off, its been 2 months.
Now I am spending my time exercising, doing yoga, studying things I want to study and hanging out at cafes and travelling. But I was happier in the job.
I don't have a solution, sorry. My best guess is understanding the hedonic treadmill, focusing on appreciating what you have and meditation (the mind illuminated is a good book). But hey thats just a guess. Maybe there is no solution, maybe evolution fucked us.
I quit to join a startup. Huge mistake. I quit the startup to take time off, its been 2 months.
Now I am spending my time exercising, doing yoga, studying things I want to study and hanging out at cafes and travelling. But I was happier in the job.
I don't have a solution, sorry. My best guess is understanding the hedonic treadmill, focusing on appreciating what you have and meditation (the mind illuminated is a good book). But hey thats just a guess. Maybe there is no solution, maybe evolution fucked us.
Do you mind sharing why joining startup was a mistake? I am in the similar position at the big company, and have been contemplating a similar change
Sure.
1) the pay was $100k, much less than i was previously making. Made me change my spending habits and reduced my quality of life 2) the office was depressing and dark 3) the ability to socialize at my office was greatly diminished due to a small team. I'm on the same wavelength as 10% of ppl so if there are only 20ppl at a company its slim pickings especially since most people are working from home. 4) I stopped believing in the product pretty quickly after joining as I learned more about it and the competitive landscape. Belief in the product was the only thing keeping me there and once that was dead i had no reason to stay 5) the CEO turned out to be an idiot and i did not want to put my future in his hands.
If you can work at a FAANG-like company it's a REALLY good deal. A startup can't offer the same perks, security, work-life-balance and freedom that FAANG can.
My new thinking is that if you are unhappy working on something, switching to something else that is similar is only a temporary fix. Maybe switching to really different career that helps other people will provide a long term solution, but i doubt it. Most likely the issue is your attitude, perspective and personality.
What are you really craving? What emotional state are you craving that you are not getting? Excitement, Love, Fame, Appreciation? Dig in and think if you really will be able to get that state sustainably at a different place.
You want changes in order to change your emotional state but what you really need to do is learn how to control your emotional state. That is what you should be working on.
But maybe don't listen to me, I have not figured it out yet, I am still not happy :)
1) the pay was $100k, much less than i was previously making. Made me change my spending habits and reduced my quality of life 2) the office was depressing and dark 3) the ability to socialize at my office was greatly diminished due to a small team. I'm on the same wavelength as 10% of ppl so if there are only 20ppl at a company its slim pickings especially since most people are working from home. 4) I stopped believing in the product pretty quickly after joining as I learned more about it and the competitive landscape. Belief in the product was the only thing keeping me there and once that was dead i had no reason to stay 5) the CEO turned out to be an idiot and i did not want to put my future in his hands.
If you can work at a FAANG-like company it's a REALLY good deal. A startup can't offer the same perks, security, work-life-balance and freedom that FAANG can.
My new thinking is that if you are unhappy working on something, switching to something else that is similar is only a temporary fix. Maybe switching to really different career that helps other people will provide a long term solution, but i doubt it. Most likely the issue is your attitude, perspective and personality.
What are you really craving? What emotional state are you craving that you are not getting? Excitement, Love, Fame, Appreciation? Dig in and think if you really will be able to get that state sustainably at a different place.
You want changes in order to change your emotional state but what you really need to do is learn how to control your emotional state. That is what you should be working on.
But maybe don't listen to me, I have not figured it out yet, I am still not happy :)
Thank you for your reply! Can relate to the questions you are asking yourself. Hope you figure it out :)
Thanks buddy. Hope you figure it out as well. Feel free to reach out if you figure something out @zoharjakobovski on twitter
I wouldn't dwell on how you "should" feel about your current situation. Reflect on what it is you value in life. Are you meaningfully fulfilling and working towards your values? If not, think about what aspects of your life are tangential or contrary to your values. It may be worth considering making a change in those areas.
It's also important not to beat yourself up. It's normal to think about how things could be, and it's not easy to appreciate the things you have. These are normal human emotions and behaviors, and they are perfectly ok.
I will mention, I think for the majority of people what you do for work is not the primary driver of life fulfillment. Work is a responsibility we take on, our societal contract to fulfill the needs of ourselves and our loved ones.
It's also important not to beat yourself up. It's normal to think about how things could be, and it's not easy to appreciate the things you have. These are normal human emotions and behaviors, and they are perfectly ok.
I will mention, I think for the majority of people what you do for work is not the primary driver of life fulfillment. Work is a responsibility we take on, our societal contract to fulfill the needs of ourselves and our loved ones.
Disclaimer, I am not an expert in these fields, and while I have some academic-ey looking references, the references are also on the periphery of their respective fields, so like.. big grain of salt, maybe several.
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You can't, but you don't have to "want more" in the same "direction".
I think this article by Nathaniel Travis gives a lot of insight into the human condition with a remarkably simple premise:
[1] https://nathanieltravis.com/2022/01/17/is-human-behavior-jus...
The reason we can't ever be entirely satisfied is our fundamental control loop cannot consider scale (and for good reason if you think about it for a few minutes). So no matter how good things are, you will always sensibly consider how things could be better, no matter how little it would actually improve your day to day (if at all).
Fortunately, it does seem we have some control over what it is we expect to gain, so I would suggest you start "tumbling" vigorously in ways that are not detrimental to your current life and you may come upon something that really sparks an interest (at least enough of one).
I suspect there's also a darker parallel with these systems and give-up-itis, in which a lack of dopamine from the prefrontal cortex seems to cause stasis and eventually death or suicide as the basal ganglia loses the ability to perform self-directed activity (the control loop has shut down) [2]. This isn't entirely different from a bacteria failing to find a gradient and simply waiting out the situation. But from our highly derived perspective, waiting out a situation when we are the only thing that can create situations is not a useful feedback loop.
[2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030698771...
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You can't, but you don't have to "want more" in the same "direction".
I think this article by Nathaniel Travis gives a lot of insight into the human condition with a remarkably simple premise:
[1] https://nathanieltravis.com/2022/01/17/is-human-behavior-jus...
The reason we can't ever be entirely satisfied is our fundamental control loop cannot consider scale (and for good reason if you think about it for a few minutes). So no matter how good things are, you will always sensibly consider how things could be better, no matter how little it would actually improve your day to day (if at all).
Fortunately, it does seem we have some control over what it is we expect to gain, so I would suggest you start "tumbling" vigorously in ways that are not detrimental to your current life and you may come upon something that really sparks an interest (at least enough of one).
I suspect there's also a darker parallel with these systems and give-up-itis, in which a lack of dopamine from the prefrontal cortex seems to cause stasis and eventually death or suicide as the basal ganglia loses the ability to perform self-directed activity (the control loop has shut down) [2]. This isn't entirely different from a bacteria failing to find a gradient and simply waiting out the situation. But from our highly derived perspective, waiting out a situation when we are the only thing that can create situations is not a useful feedback loop.
[2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030698771...
Most people here would probably tell you how arrogant you are or how to find happiness in what you do. But do you know that people in common spend 20 years to find the real proficiency?
It’s easy to know if you're there or not by asking a single question - Do you find purpose in what you do? You can be a software engineer and work in cloud computing for example. But deep inside you know that you never cared about clouds and always wanted to help people to get to space.
I personally know that no matter how good the work conditions would be, I would not be satisfied until I would work in the game industry. Until I know that my input helped to put smile on thousands of faces.
It’s easy to know if you're there or not by asking a single question - Do you find purpose in what you do? You can be a software engineer and work in cloud computing for example. But deep inside you know that you never cared about clouds and always wanted to help people to get to space.
I personally know that no matter how good the work conditions would be, I would not be satisfied until I would work in the game industry. Until I know that my input helped to put smile on thousands of faces.
I don't know enough about you to offer anything meaningful.. but from my own experiences:
All the things you do, you want to do.
There's nothing inherently positive about this, given our evolutionary history.
Start doing more things you don't want to do.
Stop allowing yourself to be comfortable by default.
All the things you do, you want to do.
There's nothing inherently positive about this, given our evolutionary history.
Start doing more things you don't want to do.
Stop allowing yourself to be comfortable by default.
Is it perfect because you deep down think it is perfect? Or is it perfect because everyone else tells you it is?
Your list sounds like a greatest hit of things people on HN, at dinner parties or elsewhere would comment as being dream scenario. But although it may objectively be a priviledged and dream scenario to be in, then that does not automatically make it the optimal scenario for you.
Some of it could sound like you arguing with yourself about not being happy or content about a situation others would dream of. But if it is not YOUR dream scenario then it does not matter what other people think.
I may be way off. But the other interpretations of your comment seems to be well discussed.
Your list sounds like a greatest hit of things people on HN, at dinner parties or elsewhere would comment as being dream scenario. But although it may objectively be a priviledged and dream scenario to be in, then that does not automatically make it the optimal scenario for you.
Some of it could sound like you arguing with yourself about not being happy or content about a situation others would dream of. But if it is not YOUR dream scenario then it does not matter what other people think.
I may be way off. But the other interpretations of your comment seems to be well discussed.
This is totally off-topic and not at all helpful, but I couldn't help myself. Sorry :)
The question instantly reminded me of "Warum werde ich nicht satt?" [1] by Die toten Hosen. It really sounds like a perfect match to me.
Tellingly, the song also just asks the same question, rather aggressively, without providing an answer. I always thought of this as a way of criticizing the mentality of many better-off people, but I had never thought about how one should approach the question when one really is in this situation. Thanks for asking it here! :)
[1]: https://youtu.be/H2WNeyfftVA
The question instantly reminded me of "Warum werde ich nicht satt?" [1] by Die toten Hosen. It really sounds like a perfect match to me.
Tellingly, the song also just asks the same question, rather aggressively, without providing an answer. I always thought of this as a way of criticizing the mentality of many better-off people, but I had never thought about how one should approach the question when one really is in this situation. Thanks for asking it here! :)
[1]: https://youtu.be/H2WNeyfftVA
Because work is a means towards an end not the end itself.
Pretty much everything in this life is a means towards the end.
We were created to know and love God which is our ultimate end that will satisfy all our desires. Without him you will always feel something is missing.
Pretty much everything in this life is a means towards the end.
We were created to know and love God which is our ultimate end that will satisfy all our desires. Without him you will always feel something is missing.
Step 1: Practice gratitude.
Step 2: Consider taking the science of well-being course. https://www.coursera.org/learn/the-science-of-well-being
Step 3: Find (or geek out in) a hobby that you can obsess about and that your friends and family can accept.
Step 4: If you can't find out a path toward self-actualization, ask your employer or boss about ways that you can improve the business mission goals. In that path, you should find a path toward self-actualization and go for it.
Step 5: Accept the excellent result you get because outcomes are very dependent on luck.
Step 2: Consider taking the science of well-being course. https://www.coursera.org/learn/the-science-of-well-being
Step 3: Find (or geek out in) a hobby that you can obsess about and that your friends and family can accept.
Step 4: If you can't find out a path toward self-actualization, ask your employer or boss about ways that you can improve the business mission goals. In that path, you should find a path toward self-actualization and go for it.
Step 5: Accept the excellent result you get because outcomes are very dependent on luck.
Feel this way with FAANG jobs and half mil comp. I feel bad that I make low six figs. It's funny. I live in MCOL too.
Edit: flip side of this is the desire to hold onto things. Not easy to let go. Something bad could happen to a person anytime.
Edit: flip side of this is the desire to hold onto things. Not easy to let go. Something bad could happen to a person anytime.
It's tough to achieve a balance between healthy ambition to improve and nagging dissatisfaction and restlessness. I'm not in anybody else's head, but for me it's about matching my values to my reality. I pursue the things I value and value the things I have. Religion and culture have made things easier for me, I guess. Where I'm from, the things you've already achieved are a good life's work. (I guess that, and visiting your mom on a regular basis.) My parents are happy with me and I'm able to support my kids and everything on top of that is icing on the cake.
Do you have any friends, hobbies, or sense of adventure? If not, then it'd be obvious to me what you're missing. I have no savings, no investments, no assets and very few possessions, no security of any kind, and just entered my thirties, no children, I rent, and make maybe around a similar amount. But I have a decent social life, a good relationship, There's not really anything I want right now that I can't access, except reliability of that income so I can apply it to more adventure, and time. I envy your no meetings setup, can't stand them. No debt would be nice too.
I don't think it's the hedonic treadmill so much as it is that you do not feel fulfilled in your career. If you were fulfilled, you would have said so in the text above, unprompted.
What are your actual life goals? Do they go beyond "have a happy family and die as late as possible"? If so, you may not be meeting your spiritual quota, though your physical (assets), mental (interesting problems), and emotional (healthy family and friend relationships) cups runneth over. Perhaps you could find some time to volunteer somewhere that you feel you can make an impact.
What are your actual life goals? Do they go beyond "have a happy family and die as late as possible"? If so, you may not be meeting your spiritual quota, though your physical (assets), mental (interesting problems), and emotional (healthy family and friend relationships) cups runneth over. Perhaps you could find some time to volunteer somewhere that you feel you can make an impact.
36, I had this, I was running a design team of a successful startup who had just raised anound 2 million.
I quit.
I felt unfulfilled with the excitement and possiblity, because life for me lacked meaning. I studied how to be a yoga teacher, focussed on my body and not my mind. I changed my diet to be a lot more veg and I moved out of London.
I have less money, less power, but feel happier. I just worked out that the grind wasn't for me and I enjoyed doing different simple things. I now work as a consultant 6 months of the year and take 6 months off.
Do what feels right for you. Everything feels the way it does for a reason.
I quit.
I felt unfulfilled with the excitement and possiblity, because life for me lacked meaning. I studied how to be a yoga teacher, focussed on my body and not my mind. I changed my diet to be a lot more veg and I moved out of London.
I have less money, less power, but feel happier. I just worked out that the grind wasn't for me and I enjoyed doing different simple things. I now work as a consultant 6 months of the year and take 6 months off.
Do what feels right for you. Everything feels the way it does for a reason.
Being a human sucks. External things don't impact our happiness for long, and yet we seems to be hard-wired to ignore that experience and always believe the next thing will make us happy. I have no wisdom for you, only sympathy. But not that much sympathy. In fact, I'm sitting here thinking "That guy has a nice life, I wish I earned over 100k working 4 days a week", even though you're literally telling me that it doesn't satisfy you. Somehow a bit of my brain thinks it would be different for me.
Some people are happy enough living through an 'I' perspective (I have this, I have that). Some people can't be happy with that, and look for happiness through success as some kind of 'we' (we as a family, we as a community, we as a race or gender or class or followers of a religion, we as a nation, we as a species, we as a planet). Or maybe some other moral formulation.
Certainly the easy path, if you can stomach it, is to satisfy yourself with personal material success. But you might need something else. Congrats, you're human.
Certainly the easy path, if you can stomach it, is to satisfy yourself with personal material success. But you might need something else. Congrats, you're human.
> I work from home
Plenty of people have some level of need to be part of a group of people beyond the nuclear family. Some of those people don’t seem to be very aware of the side effects of not having a group. Do you remember looking forward to going to school so you could be with your friends? (Cue tribal argument).
The group itself probably doesn’t matter so long as it is more than a couple of hours a week and not socially shallow - since you have kids perhaps something linked in with them?
I think it would be worth the effort to try an experiment and see how you respond.
Plenty of people have some level of need to be part of a group of people beyond the nuclear family. Some of those people don’t seem to be very aware of the side effects of not having a group. Do you remember looking forward to going to school so you could be with your friends? (Cue tribal argument).
The group itself probably doesn’t matter so long as it is more than a couple of hours a week and not socially shallow - since you have kids perhaps something linked in with them?
I think it would be worth the effort to try an experiment and see how you respond.
> Most days, I do not have to interact with anyone from work, not even customer contact.
You say that like it's a good thing. You may want to reconsider.
Also, always have a project. Something to aim for for a couple of years that stands out from the rest of your life. It can be anything. Building a house, raising a small child, starting a company, diving deep into a hobby, switching to an entirely different line of work for some time (I enjoyed teaching!), etc.
This may keep your inner adventurer happy, and makes for an interesting life to look back on.
You say that like it's a good thing. You may want to reconsider.
Also, always have a project. Something to aim for for a couple of years that stands out from the rest of your life. It can be anything. Building a house, raising a small child, starting a company, diving deep into a hobby, switching to an entirely different line of work for some time (I enjoyed teaching!), etc.
This may keep your inner adventurer happy, and makes for an interesting life to look back on.
Hey I'm you but a little younger. I'm writing a book about this called "Enough.".
I think you're spot on with humans always wanting more. More money, more freedom, more relationships, etc.
If you consider a buddhist idea of suffering being the attachment to that idea, you will always be feeling this way. Could you perhaps flip your attachment to become one of detachment where having less fills you up with immense joy and gratitude? What if you looked inward and realized that you are enough and always have been?
I think you're spot on with humans always wanting more. More money, more freedom, more relationships, etc.
If you consider a buddhist idea of suffering being the attachment to that idea, you will always be feeling this way. Could you perhaps flip your attachment to become one of detachment where having less fills you up with immense joy and gratitude? What if you looked inward and realized that you are enough and always have been?
Quick question: what is your job about? Are you accomplishing anything meaningful?
Having a job that makes sense to you isn't a bulletproof answer to your problems. But I think that it can help.
Having a job that makes sense to you isn't a bulletproof answer to your problems. But I think that it can help.
My situation is fairly similar.
I picked up a side project which has been a bit of a double-edged sword. Something that as yet has no value consistently tugs at my attention throughout the day.
I picked up a side project which has been a bit of a double-edged sword. Something that as yet has no value consistently tugs at my attention throughout the day.
This is my very christian understanding of life and work. It took years for me to research/conclude so you may find some value in it, regardless of your religious views.
My calling in life is to be a disciple of Jesus. In this I look after my family, serve my church, take part in society/community, and do my vocation/work.
I would suggest you may be missing an element of community in your story. I have learned to look to all these areas and not only focus on some.
My calling in life is to be a disciple of Jesus. In this I look after my family, serve my church, take part in society/community, and do my vocation/work.
I would suggest you may be missing an element of community in your story. I have learned to look to all these areas and not only focus on some.
> I dream about doing my own thing or retiring early to do other projects.
Do you already do your "own thing" now after work and on weekends? If not, then it probably is a case of thinking the grass is greener.
Speaking only for myself, I would come home from work and pursue my passions everyday, night, and weekend until exhaustion. I quit my job two years ago to pursue my passions full time and - although I'm not making money yet - I am consistently happy and fulfilled with my work.
Do you already do your "own thing" now after work and on weekends? If not, then it probably is a case of thinking the grass is greener.
Speaking only for myself, I would come home from work and pursue my passions everyday, night, and weekend until exhaustion. I quit my job two years ago to pursue my passions full time and - although I'm not making money yet - I am consistently happy and fulfilled with my work.
Have you tried taking risks in life? Sounds like you enjoy being left to your own devices, so why not try solo travel in a remote region? South America and places in Southeast Asia can be really fun to do alone.
You might even end up in situations which will untangle you from work or as you call it "the perfect job", and I can say from experience it is extremely liberating.
And you will meet a lot of people along the way, too.
This sounds like the perfect solution for you also as you said you work from home.
You might even end up in situations which will untangle you from work or as you call it "the perfect job", and I can say from experience it is extremely liberating.
And you will meet a lot of people along the way, too.
This sounds like the perfect solution for you also as you said you work from home.
>> I have a house, a good relationship with my wife, and young and healthy kids.
> why not try solo travel in a remote region? South America and places in Southeast Asia can be really fun to do alone.
Sounds like the risky solo intercontinental travel portion of this guy's life has elapsed. Doing this when you're single and 25 is adventurous. Doing this when you're married with kids and a homeowner is a midlife crisis, even if being 35 makes it an early one. Leaving the responsibility of raising the children and running the household to his wife while he goes on adventures to sate his restlessness would be pretty self-absorbed.
> why not try solo travel in a remote region? South America and places in Southeast Asia can be really fun to do alone.
Sounds like the risky solo intercontinental travel portion of this guy's life has elapsed. Doing this when you're single and 25 is adventurous. Doing this when you're married with kids and a homeowner is a midlife crisis, even if being 35 makes it an early one. Leaving the responsibility of raising the children and running the household to his wife while he goes on adventures to sate his restlessness would be pretty self-absorbed.
> So HN, how did you settle and slow down and become happy with the way it is without always wanting more?
Just get some chickens: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2018/03/02/f...
Just get some chickens: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2018/03/02/f...
You have no standup meetings, work 4 days a week and only have two calls a week. You are in a good place things can slip into scrum quickly.. you don't want that. Find the things you love about your role and honor them because in a blank you could be at Amazon chasing some dream oncall hoping you were not hired to be fired or trying your own business only to realize you hate selling. Thread carefully.. and start investing in projects outside of work.
It's funny how you asked a question for people to share their personal stories of how they may have overcame the feelings of "never enough" that you have, but most people are just giving advice. As if they really know the person they're giving advice to.
IMO the insight, self-awareness, or revelation you may be seeking would most likely come from a conversation where you have space to think, reflect, be asked a lot of "Why" questions, and so on.
IMO the insight, self-awareness, or revelation you may be seeking would most likely come from a conversation where you have space to think, reflect, be asked a lot of "Why" questions, and so on.
It’s never enough because you think external circumstances (your job, your income, your family) are responsible for your happiness - they are not.
Being happy with the way it is has very little to do with your external circumstances and more to do with your internal disposition. That’s why you can find people in all different kinds of circumstances that are happy.
How to get there is a much longer discussion, but focusing on what’s good and feeling grateful for those things is a start.
Being happy with the way it is has very little to do with your external circumstances and more to do with your internal disposition. That’s why you can find people in all different kinds of circumstances that are happy.
How to get there is a much longer discussion, but focusing on what’s good and feeling grateful for those things is a start.
I would suggest a mindset like Ripley's while trying to battle the mother alien - "still lucky, not dead yet". Once the realization of one's imminent mortality like Ripley or after stroke where half of the body is paralysed, one becomes appreciative of all the "luck" and grace life bestowed. I would suggest OP try volunteer in VA or hospitals, hospice or homeless shelters, etc. I'm still lucky, not dead yet.
Find meaning outside of your income source. Perhaps more time with family, or a hobby you enjoy, etc. Settling is a derogatory term for knowing what enough for you is.
> ...Settling is a derogatory term for knowing what enough for you is.
Oof, this is a pretty profound statement!
Oof, this is a pretty profound statement!
The cited memo seems entirely reasonable for any for-profit company..
> “If a direct report is coasting or is a low performer, they are not who we need; they are failing this company,” Saba wrote. “As a manager, you cannot allow someone to be net neutral or negative for Meta.”
Companies exist, after all, to generate a profit for their owners.. One may or may not agree with the ethics of that being the case, but that is why they exist at this moment in time.
> “If a direct report is coasting or is a low performer, they are not who we need; they are failing this company,” Saba wrote. “As a manager, you cannot allow someone to be net neutral or negative for Meta.”
Companies exist, after all, to generate a profit for their owners.. One may or may not agree with the ethics of that being the case, but that is why they exist at this moment in time.
Please update this thread once you found the answer. I have the same question as well. I am probably luckier than 99% of people but somehow... it never felt enough.
At the end of the day a job where you only see your boss half an hour every two or three days and otherwise have no interaction is convenient but probably doesn't make you feel important. Better jobs are the ones where people listen to you. This is why you want to work for yourself. Only when people listen will your fragile ego will register that you matter. Otherwise retiring is probably better, then you can do what you please.
Happiness always reverts back to a baseline level. You will never escape this baseline level.
Up until this point in your life, meaning has been a projection – a goal ahead of you. You have now reached this goal, realised the projection, and must find a new projection, a new project. You must find an I beyond the self, a goal that encompasses but is larger than yourself.
I recommend the book "What is Existentialism?" by Simone de Beauvoir as a starting point.
Up until this point in your life, meaning has been a projection – a goal ahead of you. You have now reached this goal, realised the projection, and must find a new projection, a new project. You must find an I beyond the self, a goal that encompasses but is larger than yourself.
I recommend the book "What is Existentialism?" by Simone de Beauvoir as a starting point.
Get good at something else which has competitions. For example, e-sport games, chess etc. Now you have something else apart from your job where you can succeed.
Ok great. Now I spend all day wishing I was playing chess instead of working.
A perfectly fulfilling job will rarely lead to me completely fulfilling life.
A robust web of relationships at varying levels of intimacy certainly correlates with fulfillment.
A robust web of relationships at varying levels of intimacy certainly correlates with fulfillment.
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Reminds me of postmodernism, e.g., "You feel sorry for yourself. You think you’re missing something and you don’t know what it is. You’re lonely inside your life. You have a job and a family and a fully executed will, already, at your age, because the whole point is to die prepared, die legal, with all the papers signed. Die liquid, so they can convert to cash." (DeLillo, Underworld)
start lifting, hire a trainer to do it right and safely
see what your body can do, it is clear that your mind has accomplished a lot
the contentment of a great workout is hard to beat
see what your body can do, it is clear that your mind has accomplished a lot
the contentment of a great workout is hard to beat
Great advice. I've done ultra marathons, powerlifting and strongman (open division). Knowing I'll never be the best and there is an upper limit I've created my own goal Project 15-50. Complete the big three lifts (squat, bench and deadlift) for a total of 1500lbs and run a 50 miler within a week, a three year goal.
Though I do feel I need to see what my mind can accomplish. I'm a DS Manager (was an air traffic controller) but the role isn't technically difficult.
Though I do feel I need to see what my mind can accomplish. I'm a DS Manager (was an air traffic controller) but the role isn't technically difficult.
I find that personally this is a big one for me, except I spend my time road cycling. Depending on who you are the competitive aspect of group riding can be very enjoyable. (Different sports may be a better fit depending on who you are)
I cultivate non-work hobbies.
Hey dude, get into construction as a hobby and build a DIY, permitted home addition or ADU. I think you will find fulfillment there.
I’m in the same spot as you, more or less. What has allowed me to settle down is picking all the milestones I want to accomplish before I die. House remodel, travel, health/fitness, personal hobbies. It’s then fun to talk about these with my, finding out what her milestones are, and grinding together to achieve them.
Generally speaking, humans seem to want more, better. and different no matter how good we have it. Work is all about activity involving mental or physical effort to achieve a product or goal. It's not called fun, or play or sex. Perhaps if you created your own work, for your own self gratification you may be more fulfilled?
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I saw a book recently called "The Man who mistook his job for his life", I didn't particularly like the content (kind of pop-psychoanalysis) but it's a great title pun/reference and the examples in the book suggest it's a common experience to be successful and unhappy.
In my subjective opinion, I would say it’s probably not meaningful to you for whatever reason. Only you can know what’s meaningful to you, and this might be something that you need to discover. I find that a writing session can help (like 1-3 hour one time session), like write down what makes you happy, sad, annoyed, what you’re doing, what you want to do, and so on. It might give you a clue of what is meaningful to you, and how you can incorporate it into your life.
From what I understand about humans we have evolved over time, suffering in order to motivate ourselves to fix the suffering in our life. When there is no suffering we still on the lookout for problems to solve, or fun to be had, or things to learn.
Maybe even something simple like planning and doing a fun weekend adventure with your family will bring meaning in that moment, then next weekend you read a book about something interesting. Only you can discover it for yourself.
Here is a metaphor to explain it differently: I think we have evolved to climb the mountain, not hang out at the top for the rest of our life. Once you climb enough mountains, that can become meaningless, and maybe it’s time to try swimming.
From what I understand about humans we have evolved over time, suffering in order to motivate ourselves to fix the suffering in our life. When there is no suffering we still on the lookout for problems to solve, or fun to be had, or things to learn.
Maybe even something simple like planning and doing a fun weekend adventure with your family will bring meaning in that moment, then next weekend you read a book about something interesting. Only you can discover it for yourself.
Here is a metaphor to explain it differently: I think we have evolved to climb the mountain, not hang out at the top for the rest of our life. Once you climb enough mountains, that can become meaningless, and maybe it’s time to try swimming.
Happyness is mostly how you yourself perceive things and less dependent on external circumstances. I would work more on own pshychology and perception of things. Our brains are riddled with biases and filters, it helps a great deal to know about them and to identify your own fallacies.
Sounds like you might need to explore some hobbies and/or friendships? You don't mention either of those so apologies if you feel fulfilled in these areas, but if you aren't they are widely considered essential to a "happy" life.
> It is probably human to always want more.
pet theory of mine, the "wanting self" is a flawed behavior inherited from childhood (that many, myself first, still have), it's useful to stop listening to it. Maybe focus on sharing your time with family, it may lessen the need to satisfy your inner self.
pet theory of mine, the "wanting self" is a flawed behavior inherited from childhood (that many, myself first, still have), it's useful to stop listening to it. Maybe focus on sharing your time with family, it may lessen the need to satisfy your inner self.
Cue in Talking heads - once in a lifetime
I've been right where you are. Something was still off. I started digging. Now, I'm much happier.
- read stoicism, start anywhere, keep reading
- check in with a counselor
- consider your relationship with "god" -- is it fake? Step up or step back.
- get a hobby; here are mine: real estate, woodworking, software projects, private pilot, ham radio
- read stoicism, start anywhere, keep reading
- check in with a counselor
- consider your relationship with "god" -- is it fake? Step up or step back.
- get a hobby; here are mine: real estate, woodworking, software projects, private pilot, ham radio
> here are mine: real estate, woodworking, software projects, private pilot, ham radio
Apologizes since this is slightly off topic from the rest of the thread, but: any chance I could bounce some questions off you about the process of getting a private pilot's license? I took an "intro" flight, and have started studying towards the written test, but I have a few questions that I would love to ask.
My email is in my profile - let me know if there's a good way to reach out to you.
Apologizes since this is slightly off topic from the rest of the thread, but: any chance I could bounce some questions off you about the process of getting a private pilot's license? I took an "intro" flight, and have started studying towards the written test, but I have a few questions that I would love to ask.
My email is in my profile - let me know if there's a good way to reach out to you.
You're sensing what I'd guess is spiritual emptiness. It could also be a lack of conflict, which in my opinion humans need to thrive. We all need conflict and challenges to overcome; imagine what the brains of people during 100,000 years of human evolution had to endure to survive.
I do always want more, but more of what I have been pursuing, to which I have been content in the incremental progress.
But show much of that progress is towards activities which transcend the work day. It is my personal deviation from “heroic materialism” that has made me a much more enlightened man.
But show much of that progress is towards activities which transcend the work day. It is my personal deviation from “heroic materialism” that has made me a much more enlightened man.
My advice, develop a hobby; take-up martial arts/strength weightlifting. Focus on your body.
As someone rapidly approaching my mid-30s who also has wife and young kids (and also in a similar position income wise), I feel this way as well from time to time.
You need you time, outside of work, outside of family.
As someone rapidly approaching my mid-30s who also has wife and young kids (and also in a similar position income wise), I feel this way as well from time to time.
You need you time, outside of work, outside of family.
I used to be exactly the same, word for word.
Then I did my own thing, sold a business, work only on projects that interest me etc as you are aspiring to do.
Now I’m back in exactly the same situation, wanting more and being unsettled despite having a dream life on paper.
It never ends. Think it’s just the way some of us are wired!
Then I did my own thing, sold a business, work only on projects that interest me etc as you are aspiring to do.
Now I’m back in exactly the same situation, wanting more and being unsettled despite having a dream life on paper.
It never ends. Think it’s just the way some of us are wired!
1. take a vacation to a third world country...i've found it enormously helpful to see the world from outside of the western bubble. it helped me to appreciate what i had and to be grateful.
2. find a hobby or something you're interested in and master it. then teach other people about it.
2. find a hobby or something you're interested in and master it. then teach other people about it.
I am seeing a lot of people on here suggest meditation, what is it supposed to do? Not to sound arrogant, but I feel like I'm "too smart" to meditate, like any mind games I play on myself are not going to work. My conscious thoughts aren't going to change.
I believe if you learn to love and enjoy the most mundane tasks like sweeping the floor, washing your hands, walking to the mailbox, etc, and appreciate the opportunity they provide you to recognize the eternal present and all its glory, everything else will fall into place.
I just left that same situation for law school. I start at a patent law firm in the fall making about 1.5x my salary as a SWE, with significantly more upward potential.
I'll let you know if I settle and slow down or become happy with the way it is without always wanting more. /s
I'll let you know if I settle and slow down or become happy with the way it is without always wanting more. /s
Sounds like you think you wanted a stable, comfortable life, but what you really want is something else. Try things to see what makes you feel invigorated. And note that what those things are, may change over time, and may require sacrifice of what you have today.
This is very simple. Happiness is generated and defined by moving towards a goal that you really believe to be valuable.
Arriving at the goal is mildly relieving briefly then almost immediately after anxiety inducing due to sudden lack of purpose.
Your purpose is to make then world a better place.
Arriving at the goal is mildly relieving briefly then almost immediately after anxiety inducing due to sudden lack of purpose.
Your purpose is to make then world a better place.
You need 3 things in life:
Something to do Someone to love Something to look forward to
(I think you might be missing the last point)
Something to do Someone to love Something to look forward to
(I think you might be missing the last point)
I found out why I wanted different things. Honestly it has been a lifelong journey to answer that question and finding the answer can be very complicated and not at all what you expect when you start, or it can take so long that it subsumes your life.
Wanting to be more is the human condition.
Don't dislike it, don't worry about it, just embrace it.
This too is sacred.
Don't dislike it, don't worry about it, just embrace it.
This too is sacred.
I think working from home can add too. Losing physical contacts during lockodown detached me from my work I love – which has shown clear after I started seeing our team again.
Suggestion: read Four Thousands Weeks from Oliver Burkeman;)
Suggestion: read Four Thousands Weeks from Oliver Burkeman;)
Why would it be ?
What you are describing is stagnating, as a worker and as a person. Life is made so that we always want to push and grow ourselves.
You want to do your own thing ? Do it. If you don't you'll have regrets later
What you are describing is stagnating, as a worker and as a person. Life is made so that we always want to push and grow ourselves.
You want to do your own thing ? Do it. If you don't you'll have regrets later
Take up a new medium for expression (e.g. drawing, painting, music, etc.). Don't just learn the ropes and play others' works, either. Try to put yourself and your thoughts, ideas, feelings, into the medium.
Because life is intrinsically frustrating and everything is impermanent including the satisfaction you derive from material gains. The only way to escape is to stop seeking happiness externally.
Sounds like you are a creative person who needs to find a creative outlet. A stable job is not usually a great arena for that but it’s a prerequisite for a good life. Plenty of time for hobbies!
The Loneliness of a pretty good developer
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31438426
Because you are searching your Self.
Everyone is searching their Self.
It won’t be enough when you are not searching your Self, no matter what you have.
It will be enough when you are searching your Self, no matter what you have.
Everyone is searching their Self.
It won’t be enough when you are not searching your Self, no matter what you have.
It will be enough when you are searching your Self, no matter what you have.
Gratitude helps, counting your blessings.
Also, tackle something meaningful to you that's very hard.
It's the striving that leads to happiness, not the attaining.
Here's some advice by Alan Watts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4
Your job is only one part of your life.
You also have family, and you can have hobbies and other pursuits if you want to. Fulfillment comes from all of those aspects of life, not just from your job.
You also have family, and you can have hobbies and other pursuits if you want to. Fulfillment comes from all of those aspects of life, not just from your job.
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Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.
- Kurt Vonnegut, Cat’s Cradle
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.
- Kurt Vonnegut, Cat’s Cradle
I just read some crazy spiritual stuff on this subject. The advice was: just follow your passion with no expectation of a result and the rest will fall into place.
There is no perfect job. Every job has something you don't like. The job you're interviewing for, because you hate your current job, isn't perfect either.
Your post is why I don't want to "settle down". I am just going to feel stuck and then take it out on my wife and kids for limiting my options. Good luck!
Congrats on everything you've achieved!
A great philosopher said "You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in you.”
A life without purpose or meaning, even the greatest life, is not enough for the human heart. Our heart was designed for something greater than our jobs, and we only find happiness when we give ourselves entirely to others and to something greater than ourselves.
Maybe St. Augustine wiritings can help you (Confessions is great), and Victor Frenkl's "Man's search for meaning". He was an Auswitch survivor who studied the who survived the most horrific tortures in the Nazi regime. His conclusion was that the ones who survived where the ones that had something to live for.
Hope you find your purpose!
AMGD
You should work part time for some minimum wage job for a week or two. Maybe dishwashing or somewhere that you have to deal with people constantly like 7/11.
This is actually a lot harder to do than it sounds! Hiring managers will be suspicious of anyone overqualified, precisely because they know they won’t be there a few weeks later.
Hrm.. maybe stick to small businesses so they have no hiring manager and jobs that require little to no training? Dishwashing for a small restaurant could be ideal. It is a miserable job, but can be picked up pretty quickly.
Just appreciate what you have. I was in a similar position, and took it for granted. I lost everything, now trying to scrape by with whatever I can get.
I would recommend watching Dr Andrew Hubberman. I think you will find how to accomplish what you already know you have to do, but don’t know how.
Despite what American declaration of independence says, happiness is not a natural state for a human, and is not really a worthy goal to pursue.
Enjoy time with your children.
Help others.
Don’t invent yet another crypto coin.
Help others.
Don’t invent yet another crypto coin.
do more atelic activities
go for a hike just for the sake of going for a hike draw something just for the sake of drawing
as in, don't go for a hike for the exercise, or to get better at hiking don't draw to get better at drawing
also, and this is just a personal recommendation, learn another language
also, do charity stuff, or volunteering, I've heard it helps
go for a hike just for the sake of going for a hike draw something just for the sake of drawing
as in, don't go for a hike for the exercise, or to get better at hiking don't draw to get better at drawing
also, and this is just a personal recommendation, learn another language
also, do charity stuff, or volunteering, I've heard it helps
Congratulations, you've achieved your ten years ago's dream today. Now, start narrowing that time window.
Don't know I like my job I need to work on the other things in my life like finding a SO and exercise.
Maybe do more activities outside your comfort zone? At least for me that helps to keep life interesting.
You sound really lonely. When are you and your family building bonds with other families?
check out https://www.volunteermatch.org/ to find opportunities for you to give back. You will get a sense of fulfillment and the charities would be very grateful.
There's no such thing as perfect anything, so by definition it can never be good enough
Do you get out much? For many men especially, most of your social contact comes from work.
Man does not live on bread alone
> I dream about doing my own thing
If you’re not doing your own thing, you’re just someone’s puppet.
If you’re not doing your own thing, you’re just someone’s puppet.
> If you’re not doing your own thing, you’re just someone’s puppet.
Not necessarily.
If you choose to have children when you don't really want them, then you're hardly their puppet if you're too principled to abandon them.
Not necessarily.
If you choose to have children when you don't really want them, then you're hardly their puppet if you're too principled to abandon them.
Maybe reading good books could help - like Goethe's Faust:
> If Mephistopheles can grant Faust a moment of transcendence on Earth, a moment that he wishes to remain forever, then he will instantly die and serve the Devil in Hell. Faust does not believe that Mephistopheles can accomplish this and accepts the wager.
> If Mephistopheles can grant Faust a moment of transcendence on Earth, a moment that he wishes to remain forever, then he will instantly die and serve the Devil in Hell. Faust does not believe that Mephistopheles can accomplish this and accepts the wager.
You work too little. You equate minimum work with a dream job? Its too easy.
I think it's the boredom. Try to take some risks and see what happens.
the fact that you wrote all this down tells me you are well on your way to practicing gratitude. Being mindful of all the things in your life that are going well goes a long way towards mental health
It is a goal of mine this year to practice gratitude. I started writing it down in a journal, and it feels powerful. A lot of emotions come out of it, good ones. I hope it will help me slow down a little.
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Bro I'm 27 and I know as of now my job will probably never as satisfying as a I want. But is it a good job, I work with very interesting technologies, some interesting people and discover very interesting techniques, although the things I built is just some deluxe shit so some billionaires can be richer by exploiting a nicely painted set of data.
But it is mostly an easy job. It pays the bills handsomely. And I can take what I learn and use to help the communities I participate in.
Nothing will ever be perfect in that aspect and it shouldn't be.
Working for other people is never going to be as good as working in your little side projects, because that's how our capitalist society works and that's what we have to live with. All we can hope is try to make it better every day.
But it is mostly an easy job. It pays the bills handsomely. And I can take what I learn and use to help the communities I participate in.
Nothing will ever be perfect in that aspect and it shouldn't be.
Working for other people is never going to be as good as working in your little side projects, because that's how our capitalist society works and that's what we have to live with. All we can hope is try to make it better every day.
I join, I am having exactly the same "problem".
it can't be enough because of the properties of the data structure you store your beliefs about self, other, and world in
hands you Buddhist pamphlet
hands you Buddhist pamphlet
Go talk to a shrink. You have the money for it.
May I ask what your occupation is specifically?
watch some documentaries about third world poverty.
people working 12 hours a day inside a 50 foot mine that could collapse any moment for $1-2.
people working 12 hours a day inside a 50 foot mine that could collapse any moment for $1-2.
Happiness = Reality - Expectations
Try a gratitude journal.
Try a gratitude journal.
Which job is that, so I can get one too?
I found contentment required years of therapy and two types of antidepressants. Turns out if you feel you always need something new you may be depressed! Who knew.
May I ask what your job is specifically?
Software engineer, both frontend and backend.
The answer is always community.
Are you spiritually engaged?
by knowing thy self as sat-chit-ananda existence-conciousness-bliss
Are you religious? If not, why? Can you follow the religion of your parents?
Come to live in South America and you will love your actual job. Trust me.
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What is your job?
I'm not sure how to "settle and slow down and become happy with the way it is without always wanting more". I've found that for me evolution is a necessary constraint for my happiness. If I'm just doing the same thing over and over and don't feel like I'm progressing towards anything meaningful, then I'm probably bored and unhappy. On the other hand if I'm working towards something I care about, then even if the work is grueling and tedious, I'm happier because I'm making progress towards some purpose.
I'm going to guess you don't derive much fulfillment from your work. There is nothing unique about this. I'd guess that this is the case for most workers, and don't think it has much correlation with pay beyond the minimal amount you need to not be stressed about survival. Maybe a radical view, but I'd even go as far as to say that it is hard for many if not most people to derive any deep sense of fulfillment as a wage laborer (aka. "wagie") reporting to a "boss" because you never have any real equity/ownership or autonomy over your work under such an arrangement. True fulfillment and pleasure in work I believe comes from working purely on your own free will, and not selling your time for a wage.
I was similarly recently working a remote job making good money with great work/life balance and little meetings that at least in the beginning was fulfilling, but at some point the lack of any real ownership over the work and equity made it feel more like clocking in at a factory.
Now I'm unemployed living off savings working on my own project(s) which I've wanted to work on for years, and am way happier with my work than I've been since I can remember (though admittedly am only 1.5 months in so still honeymoon phase). Actually all my happiest work periods in life were all after leaving a job to work on my own projects/interests that I'd been putting off or time constrained due to the day job.
I'm not telling you to quit your job. Just that work fulfillment does not come from money or climbing up the career ladder, it comes from doing things that feel meaningful to you - and chances are that nobody's going to hire you in some traditional job and pay you money to do exactly what you find meaningful unless you're the type who finds the work in traditional jobs meaningful (if this were the case then I imagine you wouldn't have written this post though).
It's easy to tell ourselves we should be happy and grateful because of our six figure salaries and good work-life balance, when in reality many of us have given up and even forgotten about our real passions in life, golden handcuffed so long we forgot those handcuffs are still there. The longer one lives like this, suppressing their true desires in life, the more they forget about their own desires, and become a hollow unhappy shell of who they used to be, filling the void with empty addictions like consumerism and hedonism.
If you feel unfulfilled in work, then find something you're actually genuinely passionate about working on ("my job is technically interesting, and I still learn/improve" is better than nothing, but sounds more like rationalization than real passion). Your motivation should not be making money (or you will burn out), but building something you're passionate about that adds value to the world. Of course monetization matters to make something sustainable, but monetization should not be the primary goal, otherwise you will lose interest and feel unfulfilled because money for money's sake is really not that interesting.
I'm going to guess you don't derive much fulfillment from your work. There is nothing unique about this. I'd guess that this is the case for most workers, and don't think it has much correlation with pay beyond the minimal amount you need to not be stressed about survival. Maybe a radical view, but I'd even go as far as to say that it is hard for many if not most people to derive any deep sense of fulfillment as a wage laborer (aka. "wagie") reporting to a "boss" because you never have any real equity/ownership or autonomy over your work under such an arrangement. True fulfillment and pleasure in work I believe comes from working purely on your own free will, and not selling your time for a wage.
I was similarly recently working a remote job making good money with great work/life balance and little meetings that at least in the beginning was fulfilling, but at some point the lack of any real ownership over the work and equity made it feel more like clocking in at a factory.
Now I'm unemployed living off savings working on my own project(s) which I've wanted to work on for years, and am way happier with my work than I've been since I can remember (though admittedly am only 1.5 months in so still honeymoon phase). Actually all my happiest work periods in life were all after leaving a job to work on my own projects/interests that I'd been putting off or time constrained due to the day job.
I'm not telling you to quit your job. Just that work fulfillment does not come from money or climbing up the career ladder, it comes from doing things that feel meaningful to you - and chances are that nobody's going to hire you in some traditional job and pay you money to do exactly what you find meaningful unless you're the type who finds the work in traditional jobs meaningful (if this were the case then I imagine you wouldn't have written this post though).
It's easy to tell ourselves we should be happy and grateful because of our six figure salaries and good work-life balance, when in reality many of us have given up and even forgotten about our real passions in life, golden handcuffed so long we forgot those handcuffs are still there. The longer one lives like this, suppressing their true desires in life, the more they forget about their own desires, and become a hollow unhappy shell of who they used to be, filling the void with empty addictions like consumerism and hedonism.
If you feel unfulfilled in work, then find something you're actually genuinely passionate about working on ("my job is technically interesting, and I still learn/improve" is better than nothing, but sounds more like rationalization than real passion). Your motivation should not be making money (or you will burn out), but building something you're passionate about that adds value to the world. Of course monetization matters to make something sustainable, but monetization should not be the primary goal, otherwise you will lose interest and feel unfulfilled because money for money's sake is really not that interesting.
I think about this in a similar way. I think about where this is taking me.
Route A - I'm 50, I am writing code and closing jira tickets, the permanent IC at big/tech corp. Intellectually interesting, I make a mass of money, massive waste of capabilities and social obligations. I'm a highly paid brainteaser solver, and that's what my life's efforts came to.
Route B - I'm 50, I've shifted into EM, PM. I'm making a ton of cash, I'm on the right side of layoffs. It's interesting to bring products to market or pushing for CTO, but I'm hopping from ground breaking product to ground breaking product to.... can it all be ground breaking, really, when tech is the norm? Is that the end of my path?
What joins both routes is a path to significnat financial stability and family life. For the rest of the plebs on the ground watching tech jobs (/s but let's be real, this industry is so relatively privileged), we and our levels.fyi are making stupid, stupid money with a great quality of life that doesn't exist in similar career paths that make similar money.
With that anchor (a lot of money, a lot of family), that's my view of what my way out is, as in what is the final "what's next."
1) Lean into family. I can actually make all those baseball games and cook dinner at home. I have this hybrid model of the 1800's family homestead but with a lot better income. A lot of cool exploration in that direction is there that people go their whole lives foregoing to make the money to pay for that environment for their spouses and kids, but not themselves until retirement. Say what you want about days of yore, but one constant is compelling family models.
2) If you're careful for 10 years, you can buy your freedom to do whatever you want without financial destruction. Pay for your kids' college, buy a storefront and related equipment without a ton of debt, have $<a lot> net worth hidden away, and go open a bakery without much financial risk. Or move abroad. Or work on open source because you love tech... I'm not talking about FI/RE, but more about living a $150k/yr lifestyle on a $60k/yr income which is what all the cool jobs seem to pay. Totally achievable with tech income and planning.
3) Lean into a bit of spirituality. Especially working in tech, there isn't much provided room to consider how to live a good life beyond the bounds of strict rationality. Many people don't have the room because they're trying to hustle towards fractions of (1) and (2) in their life because they don't work in tech. IMO, that pure rationality not all that's out there. Humans have had a spiritual component in their life for centuries. Today's dynamic is an aberration, not the norm. Sure, churches did their fare share to drive away churchgoers. But what they provide is a necessary part of human existence that western life, capitalism, and general "freedom from" mindsets aren't helping answer - community, doing something without a profit motive/generosity, volunteering, ethical structure that isn't always "well its relative you see." If Jesus isn't your thing, well its not mine either. But if you look inside and around and feel like maybe something is missing, there is some there-there if you start looking in this direction. Replace your church with the local non-profit maybe.
Honorable mention) There are base human brain-tickling impulses. Competition, love, fitness, family etc. For example, private sector can be rewarding if you're competitive - you can fully embrace that impulse, and keep competing/winning your whole life. I'm skeptical that there isn't some intrinsic value in following what that tickling impulse is for you, but you have to know yourself.
Hope that helps!
Route A - I'm 50, I am writing code and closing jira tickets, the permanent IC at big/tech corp. Intellectually interesting, I make a mass of money, massive waste of capabilities and social obligations. I'm a highly paid brainteaser solver, and that's what my life's efforts came to.
Route B - I'm 50, I've shifted into EM, PM. I'm making a ton of cash, I'm on the right side of layoffs. It's interesting to bring products to market or pushing for CTO, but I'm hopping from ground breaking product to ground breaking product to.... can it all be ground breaking, really, when tech is the norm? Is that the end of my path?
What joins both routes is a path to significnat financial stability and family life. For the rest of the plebs on the ground watching tech jobs (/s but let's be real, this industry is so relatively privileged), we and our levels.fyi are making stupid, stupid money with a great quality of life that doesn't exist in similar career paths that make similar money.
With that anchor (a lot of money, a lot of family), that's my view of what my way out is, as in what is the final "what's next."
1) Lean into family. I can actually make all those baseball games and cook dinner at home. I have this hybrid model of the 1800's family homestead but with a lot better income. A lot of cool exploration in that direction is there that people go their whole lives foregoing to make the money to pay for that environment for their spouses and kids, but not themselves until retirement. Say what you want about days of yore, but one constant is compelling family models.
2) If you're careful for 10 years, you can buy your freedom to do whatever you want without financial destruction. Pay for your kids' college, buy a storefront and related equipment without a ton of debt, have $<a lot> net worth hidden away, and go open a bakery without much financial risk. Or move abroad. Or work on open source because you love tech... I'm not talking about FI/RE, but more about living a $150k/yr lifestyle on a $60k/yr income which is what all the cool jobs seem to pay. Totally achievable with tech income and planning.
3) Lean into a bit of spirituality. Especially working in tech, there isn't much provided room to consider how to live a good life beyond the bounds of strict rationality. Many people don't have the room because they're trying to hustle towards fractions of (1) and (2) in their life because they don't work in tech. IMO, that pure rationality not all that's out there. Humans have had a spiritual component in their life for centuries. Today's dynamic is an aberration, not the norm. Sure, churches did their fare share to drive away churchgoers. But what they provide is a necessary part of human existence that western life, capitalism, and general "freedom from" mindsets aren't helping answer - community, doing something without a profit motive/generosity, volunteering, ethical structure that isn't always "well its relative you see." If Jesus isn't your thing, well its not mine either. But if you look inside and around and feel like maybe something is missing, there is some there-there if you start looking in this direction. Replace your church with the local non-profit maybe.
Honorable mention) There are base human brain-tickling impulses. Competition, love, fitness, family etc. For example, private sector can be rewarding if you're competitive - you can fully embrace that impulse, and keep competing/winning your whole life. I'm skeptical that there isn't some intrinsic value in following what that tickling impulse is for you, but you have to know yourself.
Hope that helps!
Everyone here telling you to want less; I'll take the other side.
Maybe the disconnect comes from your (past) expectation that 100k, and house and kids is good enough. You see, the problem isn't the present you, the problem was the past you, with its mediocre expectations.
I say, if you want more stop complaining and make a plan.
Maybe the disconnect comes from your (past) expectation that 100k, and house and kids is good enough. You see, the problem isn't the present you, the problem was the past you, with its mediocre expectations.
I say, if you want more stop complaining and make a plan.
OP is clearly saying they don't want more: they’re happy with what they’ve got and it is new and unfamiliar and they don't know what to do…
Most of the advice is not “want less” that’s not what people are saying. They’re saying “want beyond yourself”. Want more by looking outwards instead of inwards and start to pursue that.
Most of the advice is not “want less” that’s not what people are saying. They’re saying “want beyond yourself”. Want more by looking outwards instead of inwards and start to pursue that.
> OP is clearly saying they don't want more
No, he's saying he DOES want more.
> But somehow, it isn't. It's never enough.
> I dream about doing my own thing or retiring early to do other projects.
No, he's saying he DOES want more.
> But somehow, it isn't. It's never enough.
> I dream about doing my own thing or retiring early to do other projects.
[deleted]
Can you be happy while there are still people starving to death? As long as you have time to slow down and reflect on the state of the world, you either remember their pain, or you suppress the memory and thus distort your happiness.
The trick is to work more. Buy a boat or a horse.
The trick is to work more. Buy a boat or a horse.
Personally that sounds like boring work to me (no offense/judgement intended). I think a lot of people imagine that just getting to code without any “distractions” would be ideal, and for some extremely introverted personality types that may be true. But I think even moderately introverted people tend to thrive with more social contact than you are describing.
For me, I enjoy some amount of social interaction by way of collaboration with colleagues. Working together with someone (either business/product stakeholder, or on the technical side) to explore a design space and figure out a good solution can be as or more fun than the flow state from coding.
Particularly during Covid with reduced socialization outside of work I think that I would go crazy if I had just 8 hours a day of coding with no other interaction.
I think it’s totally fine to want something more stimulating from your career. Maybe you can ask for expanded scope from your current role (eg doing more “tech lead” type work). If you are committed to WFH, perhaps try interviewing for a more senior role, which will expose you to more collaboration (All else being equal, it can be easier to get a seniority bump by transitioning to a smaller company, though this might entail a pay cut). If you are not committed to WFH, consider a role with some time in the office. It’s simply much easier to collaborate in person. Though of course, commutes impose their own costs.
It’s also possible that this role is a good fit for you, and you are feeling a bit depressed due to the frankly depressing last couple of years. Think about whether your social life and hobbies outside work have suffered, and if there is anything you need to do to restart them.
And finally, FIRE is a totally valid goal. Work isn’t everything, if you can find a path to independence that is worth considering.
In summary, I think it’s valid that you aren’t finding your current situation fulfilling, and I don’t think it’s wrong to change things up to keep things fresh.
For me, I enjoy some amount of social interaction by way of collaboration with colleagues. Working together with someone (either business/product stakeholder, or on the technical side) to explore a design space and figure out a good solution can be as or more fun than the flow state from coding.
Particularly during Covid with reduced socialization outside of work I think that I would go crazy if I had just 8 hours a day of coding with no other interaction.
I think it’s totally fine to want something more stimulating from your career. Maybe you can ask for expanded scope from your current role (eg doing more “tech lead” type work). If you are committed to WFH, perhaps try interviewing for a more senior role, which will expose you to more collaboration (All else being equal, it can be easier to get a seniority bump by transitioning to a smaller company, though this might entail a pay cut). If you are not committed to WFH, consider a role with some time in the office. It’s simply much easier to collaborate in person. Though of course, commutes impose their own costs.
It’s also possible that this role is a good fit for you, and you are feeling a bit depressed due to the frankly depressing last couple of years. Think about whether your social life and hobbies outside work have suffered, and if there is anything you need to do to restart them.
And finally, FIRE is a totally valid goal. Work isn’t everything, if you can find a path to independence that is worth considering.
In summary, I think it’s valid that you aren’t finding your current situation fulfilling, and I don’t think it’s wrong to change things up to keep things fresh.
You could try having an affair, and try to keep it from your wife. That will spice things up! I mean, you'll lose everything if you get caught, but what a rush!
It will spice things up for literally a few minutes and then you’ll be even more depressed once your time is over.
You confuse the act of sex with an affair. The former is mechanical. The latter is sordid, forbidden, hidden. I bet emotional affairs that involve no physicality at all present a much higher risk to a relationship than a drunken quickie.
There is a saying on the radio here. Cheating is like going to the McDonald’s. A few nice minutes and a lifetime of regret afterwards. I don’t know about cheating but I always regret eating at the MacDonalds.
I work from home. My job is technically interesting, and I still learn/improve. I do not have meetings. One or sometimes two 30 min calls a week with my boss. Most days, I do not have to interact with anyone from work, not even customer contact.
If I knew I could have a job like this ten years ago, I would have thought that's it, the dream.
But somehow, it isn't. It's never enough.
I dream about doing my own thing or retiring early to do other projects. It is probably human to always want more.
So HN, how did you settle and slow down and become happy with the way it is without always wanting more?