EV adoption in US is happening faster than predicted(recurrentauto.com)
recurrentauto.com
EV adoption in US is happening faster than predicted
https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/ev-adoption-us
566 comments
> Bike infrastructure can be used for walking.
Please, no more of this. Bicycles should be on their own dedicated right of way, mixing them with cars is dangerous for cyclists, but mixing bikes with pedestrians is dangerous for pedestrians.
Multi-use paths are fine for recreation, but they are not transit infrastructure and should not be treated as such.
Please, no more of this. Bicycles should be on their own dedicated right of way, mixing them with cars is dangerous for cyclists, but mixing bikes with pedestrians is dangerous for pedestrians.
Multi-use paths are fine for recreation, but they are not transit infrastructure and should not be treated as such.
As both a cyclist and pedestrian, I definitely prefer bikes off the sidewalk. Even conscientious cyclists who call “on your left” or whatever routinely underestimate the necessary reaction time and overestimate how far their voice will carry. Even if they get both of those right, they’ve frequently terrified my pup by just being faster and louder and larger than anything on foot she’s ever met. I’ve had to return home and restart our entire morning/evening because of this countless times.
I don’t feel as strongly about separated bike infrastructure, mainly because my experience with it is that it’s more dangerous than riding in auto lanes, and that it creates an illusion of separation that both heightens that danger and heightens the dangerous attitudes of drivers trying to navigate it. I’m sure it’s better where the infrastructure is better, but where I live I choose to ride my bike away from those accommodations and right in traffic with the cars and drivers who flow together with me.
I don’t feel as strongly about separated bike infrastructure, mainly because my experience with it is that it’s more dangerous than riding in auto lanes, and that it creates an illusion of separation that both heightens that danger and heightens the dangerous attitudes of drivers trying to navigate it. I’m sure it’s better where the infrastructure is better, but where I live I choose to ride my bike away from those accommodations and right in traffic with the cars and drivers who flow together with me.
> Even conscientious cyclists who call “on your left” or whatever routinely underestimate the necessary reaction time and overestimate how far their voice will carry.
You are absolutely right. As a cyclist there isn’t really any good way to reliably avoid startling a pedestrian in a mixed environment. Even if you do the even more conscientious thing and you slow all the way down to match speed with them, and then “walk” with their speed for seconds and softly anounce your presence with an “excuse me” there are still some who get startled. I have had people act after all of that as if I tried to murder them. And I totally understand them! From their perspective they were all alone and “all of a sudden” a cyclist poped into existence behind them. And in their subjective reality they have just avoided a collision by jumping out of the way of some “crazy speeding biker”, but that biker only exists in their imagination. An outside observer would see a bike slowly catching up and matching speed with them, with zero chance of collision no matter what they might do, but that is not what they seem to experience.
You are absolutely right. As a cyclist there isn’t really any good way to reliably avoid startling a pedestrian in a mixed environment. Even if you do the even more conscientious thing and you slow all the way down to match speed with them, and then “walk” with their speed for seconds and softly anounce your presence with an “excuse me” there are still some who get startled. I have had people act after all of that as if I tried to murder them. And I totally understand them! From their perspective they were all alone and “all of a sudden” a cyclist poped into existence behind them. And in their subjective reality they have just avoided a collision by jumping out of the way of some “crazy speeding biker”, but that biker only exists in their imagination. An outside observer would see a bike slowly catching up and matching speed with them, with zero chance of collision no matter what they might do, but that is not what they seem to experience.
I used to encounter this back when I would ride kick scooters on sidewalks. Startling is instinctual and the verbalization of offense at one's existence(which often follows DARVO dynamics) happens in the process of catching up. But I've had success not getting negativity with urban biking more recently.
I rarely try to overtake pedestrians directly when off marked multiuse paths. Instead I stop pedaling and walk the bike while saying nothing. The persistent tick-tick noise activates their awareness after a few seconds, but I have to wait for a sign, and sometimes none appears so I will walk the whole block and overtake at the intersection. Regardless, they like that noise much more than a voice or a bell, because it's a bike that isn't imminently bearing down on them, so it primes their expectations.
This is facilitated by defaulting to the lowest gear, setting the saddle position low, and letting yourself cruise slow most of the time. Everyone, whether car, bike, or pedestrian, wants to default to "never stop, always be moving". But sometimes you have to explicitly yield and the adjustments away from efficient road cycling help with doing so.
I rarely try to overtake pedestrians directly when off marked multiuse paths. Instead I stop pedaling and walk the bike while saying nothing. The persistent tick-tick noise activates their awareness after a few seconds, but I have to wait for a sign, and sometimes none appears so I will walk the whole block and overtake at the intersection. Regardless, they like that noise much more than a voice or a bell, because it's a bike that isn't imminently bearing down on them, so it primes their expectations.
This is facilitated by defaulting to the lowest gear, setting the saddle position low, and letting yourself cruise slow most of the time. Everyone, whether car, bike, or pedestrian, wants to default to "never stop, always be moving". But sometimes you have to explicitly yield and the adjustments away from efficient road cycling help with doing so.
> As a cyclist there isn’t really any good way to reliably avoid startling a pedestrian in a mixed environment.
A loud freewheel is probably as close as it gets. I'd guess a loud freehub could work too, but I like my bikes old, so no freehubs. Maybe some sort of jetsons noise generator.
A loud freewheel is probably as close as it gets. I'd guess a loud freehub could work too, but I like my bikes old, so no freehubs. Maybe some sort of jetsons noise generator.
Where do you guys live? Here in Sweden we have a small bell on the steering you ring when you want to pass.
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&channel=iphone_b...
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&channel=iphone_b...
I have a Cricket bell, which can be rung normally, and can also be clicked down to act as a cowbell, gently ringing as i ride along (especially if i give the handlebar a quick wobble):
https://granite-design.com/products/cricket-bell
I use this when i ride along a shared-use path.
It makes no difference. Either people are walking in a group and talking, so they don't hear it, or they have earphones in, so they don't hear it.
https://granite-design.com/products/cricket-bell
I use this when i ride along a shared-use path.
It makes no difference. Either people are walking in a group and talking, so they don't hear it, or they have earphones in, so they don't hear it.
Wide paths with a modest number of bikes are usually OK. But I've definitely been on narrower paths and trails where cyclists are expecting you to step off to the side every two minutes because you're in their way. I don't mind every now and then when I'm walking but it can get to the point where you can't really mix modes.
The problem with bells is that people tend to act very unpredictable; you never know whether they freeze or jump left or right.
Such bells are worse than useless when the pedestrian is a small child. A three-year-old moves into the traveling bicycle's path on the sidewalk when it looks at the source of the curious sound.
This sadly has become less useful with the increase in headphone usage by pedestrians.
A pedestrian with headphones needs to ensure that he can hear any relevant traffic noise, e.g. my bell or an approaching car. Noise-blocking headphones or loud music impeding the hearing of a pedestrian are a traffic offense.
In that case a loud freewheel wouldn't do much either though.
Yep, anything audio, like a whistle, shouting "ahoy there!", has less use these days and with tiny airpods being a thing now, it's not even possible to guess from a distance if someone is listening to music.
Possibly some kind of laser beam thing that sweeps the ground in front of you might work?
Possibly some kind of laser beam thing that sweeps the ground in front of you might work?
> Possibly some kind of laser beam thing that sweeps the ground in front of you might work?
That's what the TFL bikes in London do[0]:
"The Blaze Laserlight is fixed to the cycle frame and projects a green cycle-shaped image onto the ground around 6 metres ahead of the cycle."
[0] https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/santander-cycles/blaze-lase...
That's what the TFL bikes in London do[0]:
"The Blaze Laserlight is fixed to the cycle frame and projects a green cycle-shaped image onto the ground around 6 metres ahead of the cycle."
[0] https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/santander-cycles/blaze-lase...
I don't really get the AirPod proliferation. Even if I'm in the woods by myself, much less on a busy path, I can't stand the disconnection from my environment.
Do you drive a lot? Drivers are very used to the audio disconnect.
Before I did my licence I was a firm believer in "no earbuds on the road", but after a few driving lessons I got so used to taking in the traffic situation with eyes only that I quickly converted to an earbuds all the time cyclist. A few years later I stopped driving so much and my cycling reverted to ears-always-open without me even noticing.
Before I did my licence I was a firm believer in "no earbuds on the road", but after a few driving lessons I got so used to taking in the traffic situation with eyes only that I quickly converted to an earbuds all the time cyclist. A few years later I stopped driving so much and my cycling reverted to ears-always-open without me even noticing.
I drive regularly. Yes, there is some degree of audio disconnect in a car. I also have various mirrors and sensors of various types. And I'm hopefully paying more attention than if I'm just walking around.
Indeed; here it's mandated by law to have a bell on your bike (together with lights and reflectors back and front). I would expect that's the case in many European countries.
There are cheap bells that you mount on the handlebar but they tend to break easily (and don't produce much sound; typically just one ting). Decent bikes have a more sturdy design, see for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_bicycle#/media/File:Du... (it's on the left, wrapped around the handlebar next to your hand). These tend to produce more sound.
There are cheap bells that you mount on the handlebar but they tend to break easily (and don't produce much sound; typically just one ting). Decent bikes have a more sturdy design, see for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_bicycle#/media/File:Du... (it's on the left, wrapped around the handlebar next to your hand). These tend to produce more sound.
I'm in the US near Seattle. I don't have a bell, and I've got too much junk on my bars already to add one. When I've seen bells in use, they tends to spook the pedestrians anyway. Obviously it helps if they're ubiquitous.
I'm in Finland and most bikes come with a bell attached to them. To me they kind of feel like a thing every bicycle should have, like cars have horns.
They're a legal requirement in Denmark. Some take them off, especially the Tour de France LARPers that go in groups in the countryside, and just shout at you instead. Everyone hates them.
Plenty of them do have bells, ring them a lot and only start shouting after the bell is repeatedly ignored. Stop pretending to be deaf and all will be fine.
Some people are deaf or hard of hearing.
In my experience, though, the worst sidewalk speeders are on skateboards or scooters. (I'm not saying you shouldn't skate; rather, when there was a close call or a collision, that's what they were barreling by on.)
In my experience, though, the worst sidewalk speeders are on skateboards or scooters. (I'm not saying you shouldn't skate; rather, when there was a close call or a collision, that's what they were barreling by on.)
a bell as well, but it sometimes scares the crap out of people.
The least bad way seems to be giving them plenty of opportunity to "notice the cyclist on their own". "Look how polite I am" vs "how dare they order me aside!"
My usual approach sequence is bell first (very early/far, only to soothe my nerves when the walker later starts that "should have used a bell!" tirade - sometimes a dog hears and understands that early bell and notifies its human) then generous freehub noise (first stage of "notice on their own"), then more bell and when I'm close, already effectively at walking speed, a short burst of blocking the rear brake. Unsurprisingly, people who appeared completely deaf to the bell right behind them a second earlier seem to hear even the tiniest scratch of a tire loud and clear...
My usual approach sequence is bell first (very early/far, only to soothe my nerves when the walker later starts that "should have used a bell!" tirade - sometimes a dog hears and understands that early bell and notifies its human) then generous freehub noise (first stage of "notice on their own"), then more bell and when I'm close, already effectively at walking speed, a short burst of blocking the rear brake. Unsurprisingly, people who appeared completely deaf to the bell right behind them a second earlier seem to hear even the tiniest scratch of a tire loud and clear...
> As a cyclist there isn’t really any good way to reliably avoid startling a pedestrian in a mixed environment.
Why couldn't you just ask (or require) bicyclists to use bells or horns of some sort? Pedestrians would get used to the noise after a while.
Why couldn't you just ask (or require) bicyclists to use bells or horns of some sort? Pedestrians would get used to the noise after a while.
As an example; That has worked fine for at least a century since bells were introduced as a requirement on bicycles in the 1900's around here (yes that is no typo). Pedestrians are usually annoyed but do notices the cyclist and that's what you want to achieve.
I don’t understand the facination with the bell. In what way would it help with the situation as described? Do you think it would startle the pedestrians less than the human voice?
Bells have zero effect on pedestrians. Bells are required where I live and I repeat that experiment a lot.
[deleted]
> I don’t feel as strongly about separated bike infrastructure, mainly because my experience with it is that it’s more dangerous than riding in auto lanes, and that it creates an illusion of separation that both heightens that danger and heightens the dangerous attitudes of drivers trying to navigate it.
That's why I specifically said "dedicated infrastructure", painted bicycle gutters are NOT proper bicycle infrastructure either. Bicycles should be at grade with pedestrians, but on dedicated cycling pathways so there's no conflict between the medium-speed traffic from bikes and the low-speed pedestrian traffic (even though they may often run parallel with each other).
Ultimately I call it "bike infrastructure", but really it's better to think about it this way - we have three different speed classes that need dedicated rights of way to make sure everyone is safe.
High speed / automobiles - It's not just cars and trucks, motorcycles and high end electric scooters belong here as well (I don't share space with bikes when I'm going 40MPH on my eScooter, it's unsafe for cyclists and dangerous for me as well - so I take normal travel lanes because I'm going the speed of traffic anyway).
Medium speed / bikes / eBikes / lower end electric scooters / EUCs / etc - Things that have a top speed of 20-30MPH generally speaking. Doesn't need wide lanes, and ideally should have more direct routes with fewer stops to conserve momentum.
Low speed / pedestrians / mobility scooters / etc - Obvious, you're going 5-6MPH max here even if you're out taking a run.
That's why I specifically said "dedicated infrastructure", painted bicycle gutters are NOT proper bicycle infrastructure either. Bicycles should be at grade with pedestrians, but on dedicated cycling pathways so there's no conflict between the medium-speed traffic from bikes and the low-speed pedestrian traffic (even though they may often run parallel with each other).
Ultimately I call it "bike infrastructure", but really it's better to think about it this way - we have three different speed classes that need dedicated rights of way to make sure everyone is safe.
High speed / automobiles - It's not just cars and trucks, motorcycles and high end electric scooters belong here as well (I don't share space with bikes when I'm going 40MPH on my eScooter, it's unsafe for cyclists and dangerous for me as well - so I take normal travel lanes because I'm going the speed of traffic anyway).
Medium speed / bikes / eBikes / lower end electric scooters / EUCs / etc - Things that have a top speed of 20-30MPH generally speaking. Doesn't need wide lanes, and ideally should have more direct routes with fewer stops to conserve momentum.
Low speed / pedestrians / mobility scooters / etc - Obvious, you're going 5-6MPH max here even if you're out taking a run.
> painted bicycle gutters are NOT proper bicycle infrastructure either
To be clear, where I live there are recently installed “dedicated” bike routes which are separated from car traffic by concrete barriers and curbs, and also separated from pedestrian traffic by curbs and intermittent heavy ceramic planters. The problem is that the separations are interrupted to allow turns and deliveries. All of the separation is partial. I feel a ton safer in a painted gutter, and much safer still in the middle of a car-wide lane.
To make matters worse, the particular “dedicated” infrastructure I’m thinking of is on the left side of a one-way street and introduced complicated signal timings that surprise even regular riders and drivers. I’ve posted this before here and elsewhere: when I have to go somewhere in that part of the city and have to brave even a stretch of the route, I deliberately choose to be in car traffic even with drivers irrationally yelling at me to get in the bike lane and trying to run me off the road with their cars, because it feels safer than being in the bike space.
The theory of dedicated bike infrastructure is interesting to me, but what I’ve seen in practice where I live mostly motivates me to ride on roads with sharrows right in the middle of the road clearly indicating that I’m allowed to be there even if every single driver forgot their driving instruction.
To be clear, where I live there are recently installed “dedicated” bike routes which are separated from car traffic by concrete barriers and curbs, and also separated from pedestrian traffic by curbs and intermittent heavy ceramic planters. The problem is that the separations are interrupted to allow turns and deliveries. All of the separation is partial. I feel a ton safer in a painted gutter, and much safer still in the middle of a car-wide lane.
To make matters worse, the particular “dedicated” infrastructure I’m thinking of is on the left side of a one-way street and introduced complicated signal timings that surprise even regular riders and drivers. I’ve posted this before here and elsewhere: when I have to go somewhere in that part of the city and have to brave even a stretch of the route, I deliberately choose to be in car traffic even with drivers irrationally yelling at me to get in the bike lane and trying to run me off the road with their cars, because it feels safer than being in the bike space.
The theory of dedicated bike infrastructure is interesting to me, but what I’ve seen in practice where I live mostly motivates me to ride on roads with sharrows right in the middle of the road clearly indicating that I’m allowed to be there even if every single driver forgot their driving instruction.
Growing pains will be around for decades, unfortunately. Cycling needs to reach a critical mass before cities and regions decide to start de-prioritizing cars to alleviate exactly the issues you have with improved infrastructure. The Netherlands has been working on their infrastructure for over 40 years and keep finding new and unexpected problems that you simply don't discover until you have more bicycles than cars, like parking (when you start down this path you just imagine putting posts everywhere for people to lock up to, eventually you need dedicated parking facilities just to keep bikes from littering the streets like cars already do)!
We'll get there someday, every great journey begins with the first step, so until we catch up I wouldn't fault you for continuing to take a travel lane.
We'll get there someday, every great journey begins with the first step, so until we catch up I wouldn't fault you for continuing to take a travel lane.
> Growing pains will be around for decades, unfortunately. Cycling needs to reach a critical mass before cities and regions decide to start de-prioritizing cars to alleviate exactly the issues you have with improved infrastructure.
No, we’ve been through those growing pains. Riding almost anywhere in the city is delightful and I have no issues with drivers or pedestrians. Walking is only an issue when cyclists take the sidewalk to avoid construction.
Literally the only place I fear for my safety riding in Seattle is in or beside the “dedicated” bike lanes which are poorly designed and dangerous. Several steps were taken before I could say this, I’m sure you’re correct that other places need to take them too. But in my city the steps which they took to make shared traffic routes safer have been much more effective at least for my own sense of safety than the hazardous steps they’ve taken getting dedicated infrastructure wrong.
No, we’ve been through those growing pains. Riding almost anywhere in the city is delightful and I have no issues with drivers or pedestrians. Walking is only an issue when cyclists take the sidewalk to avoid construction.
Literally the only place I fear for my safety riding in Seattle is in or beside the “dedicated” bike lanes which are poorly designed and dangerous. Several steps were taken before I could say this, I’m sure you’re correct that other places need to take them too. But in my city the steps which they took to make shared traffic routes safer have been much more effective at least for my own sense of safety than the hazardous steps they’ve taken getting dedicated infrastructure wrong.
I'm pretty sure you're considering "bad" dedicated infra. In the Netherlands cars don't cut into the bike lane for turns.
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/vancouver-needs-follow-dutch...
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/vancouver-needs-follow-dutch...
Yes, exactly, my point is that the dedicated infrastructure in my city is designed poorly and that it’s worse than not having it. I’d love a well designed system, but I’m not going to celebrate one which “only almost got killed two times today” is how I’ve most often described it. In contrast, I’ve only almost been killed three times riding in shared bike/car traffic. Once my fault, once road maintenance, once an impatient driver.
That video doesn’t load for me, but I found a direct link: https://youtu.be/5HDN9fUlqU8
I’d love to avoid cutting into the bike lane (required for right turns in most of the US), but some of those intersections are massive and the rest (1:18 in the video) replace the sidewalk with a bike lane. I don’t think either of those will be popular in American cities.
I’d love to avoid cutting into the bike lane (required for right turns in most of the US), but some of those intersections are massive and the rest (1:18 in the video) replace the sidewalk with a bike lane. I don’t think either of those will be popular in American cities.
> separated bike infrastructure
> drivers trying to navigate it
Well, there's your problem - it's not actually separated.
> drivers trying to navigate it
Well, there's your problem - it's not actually separated.
If you have a T junction, either you're going to have the car path going through the bike path, or you'll need a bridge or tunnel.
And the best places for cycle commuting have high density - meaning more T junctions per mile.
'Truly separated' bike infrastructure isn't easy.
And the best places for cycle commuting have high density - meaning more T junctions per mile.
'Truly separated' bike infrastructure isn't easy.
Yep, that is exactly my problem.
bikes honestly should follow pedestrians, a bike is not a car and the person who will be the most amount of injured will be the person on the bike over the person of the car. so maybe have both car and bike be able to see each other in bike lanes, and keep the sidewalks to the cars. there really should be an initiative to expand the shoulders in rural america. lost of places in america are not even walking friendly. america decided to be different and make cars the main focus which is killing us (toxic gas fumes everywhere)
Just take a look at countries where they have a working bike infrastructure like Denmark or the Netherlands and adapt it your your country. (Also, separated bike lanes)
In the Netherlands bicycle paths are also walking paths when there is no dedicated walking path (which is quite common).
Yes, outside the cities and villages, where the number of pedestrians is low and that of cyclists often not large either. In those situations sharing infrastructure generally isn't an issue.
Inside cities and villages, I don't think I've seen roads with a bike path, but without a pedestrian path. Maybe I've seen one in an industrial park or so.
Inside cities and villages, I don't think I've seen roads with a bike path, but without a pedestrian path. Maybe I've seen one in an industrial park or so.
>Inside cities and villages, I don't think I've seen roads with a bike path, but without a pedestrian path.
I see this situation all the time. Does every single bicycle underpass under the motorway have a full sidewalk alongside it? I can point to many situations in the Hague, Utrecht and Rotterdam where the bicycle path is the only option for pedestrians getting from point to point. I also know of tunnels that have bicycle paths but no pedestrian path. The only way to get across as a pedestrian is to use the bicycle path.
I see this situation all the time. Does every single bicycle underpass under the motorway have a full sidewalk alongside it? I can point to many situations in the Hague, Utrecht and Rotterdam where the bicycle path is the only option for pedestrians getting from point to point. I also know of tunnels that have bicycle paths but no pedestrian path. The only way to get across as a pedestrian is to use the bicycle path.
Yes that is true, but most of the time this happens in places where only a few pedestrians are likely to use it. I can count on one hand the amount of times in the last few years that I have needed to walk on a bike path as a pedestrian while working in Amsterdam and visiting many other cities and towns.
It happens I agree, but as far as I can tell there are few places in the Netherlands where more than the occasional pedestrian need to walk on the bike path for more than a few meters.
It happens I agree, but as far as I can tell there are few places in the Netherlands where more than the occasional pedestrian need to walk on the bike path for more than a few meters.
Combined walking- and biking-paths are the norm here in Sweden. Granted maybe we don't have enough big cities for it to be a problem, but Ive never really heard complaints about it. These "roads" are generally fairly wide, so its not really a problem with 4 "lanes": pedestrians and bikes going each direction.
This is true, but to OP’s point, biking infrastructure is way more pedestrian friendly than car infrastructure.
And this is especially true for 30mph ebikes. Those really don't mix with pedestrians.
E-bikes in the EU are limited to 25km/h, 16mph.
Faster vehicles exist, but they are no longer considered bicycles. In Copenhagen these vehicles (petrol or electric) are forbidden from the more pedestrian-proximate paths, like those going through parks.
Faster vehicles exist, but they are no longer considered bicycles. In Copenhagen these vehicles (petrol or electric) are forbidden from the more pedestrian-proximate paths, like those going through parks.
Were they just limited to that, they also must be pedelecs, and 300W or less.
There are higher ebike classes, but many countries sit on that legislation.
It's a bit crazy that in many places the electric scooters may go faster than ebikes, despite having worse brakes.
There are higher ebike classes, but many countries sit on that legislation.
It's a bit crazy that in many places the electric scooters may go faster than ebikes, despite having worse brakes.
Unassisted bicycles that are ridden faster than that certainly are bicycles. Which points out a huge problem with certain approaches to bike infrastructure: if you force everybody down to the speed of the slowest ones (usually small children) because there are no opportunities for safe passing, then bikes can't compete with cars for any distance beyond walking. having to go 12 km/h when you would do 30 is worse for your commute duration than having to go 25 when you would go 50.
It's not a problem in Copenhagen. Most bike paths are wide enough to allow overtaking, and even the fastest cyclists are respectful enough of small children to slow down as they pass. (Many fast cyclists will be parents, after all.)
Those are electric motorcycles and should be treated as such, the pedals are largely irrelevant. They have no place on dedicated bike infrastructure either.
Agreed. Cheap and nasty shared pavements for bikes and people in the UK are a nightmare.
Especially if people are suggesting bikes traveling at 30mph that also contain the heft needed for pedal assistance.
Nothing should be going 30mph on pedestrian infrastructure. If you want to go 30mph, you're going on real roads with real cars. I own an eBike, love it, and use it to commute, but 20mph is already too much around pedestrians.
Fwiw typical bike speeds are about 12mph Which is the speed of a marathon runner and I wouldn’t want one of those running into me either.
https://www.fetcheveryone.com/blog/3/2022/8/454264
https://www.fetcheveryone.com/blog/3/2022/8/454264
> EVs are much heavier than their equivalent ICE vehicles.
This is not true. The Tesla Model 3 is the same weight as a BMW 3 series (~3,600-4,100lbs depending on trim level). Yes EVs carry a half ton of batteries, but they get rid of the engine block, transmission, starter motor, fuel tank, alternator, exhaust system, and many other parts. Also many combustion vehicles made today are hybrids, meaning they also carry batteries and large electric motors (though not as large as a pure EV).
This is not true. The Tesla Model 3 is the same weight as a BMW 3 series (~3,600-4,100lbs depending on trim level). Yes EVs carry a half ton of batteries, but they get rid of the engine block, transmission, starter motor, fuel tank, alternator, exhaust system, and many other parts. Also many combustion vehicles made today are hybrids, meaning they also carry batteries and large electric motors (though not as large as a pure EV).
You're comparing a single EV that's light for it's class with a single gas car that's heavy for it's class.
Why not compare the 3 series (1800kg) with the electric 3 series (2200kg)? Or compare the Corsa (1094kg) with the electric Corsa-e (1455kg)
Why not compare the 3 series (1800kg) with the electric 3 series (2200kg)? Or compare the Corsa (1094kg) with the electric Corsa-e (1455kg)
Ok.
Nissan Juke - 3000 lbs
Honda Civic - 3000 lbs
Nissan Leaf - 3300-3400 lbs
Honda e - 3400 lbs
Chevy Bolt - 3600 lbs
Volkswagen ID.3 - 4000+ lbsBoth of your comparisons suffer from the fact that neither of those BEVs are built on a platform designed from the ground up for a BEV, but rather an ICE platform with a battery shoe-horned into it.
I thought EVs still had a 12v battery. Is that not charged via an alternator?
I admit it seems more sensible to charge it direct from the battery pack, but then it seems more sensible to me to do away with the 12v battery all together. So if you're going to have a 12v battery it may aswell be completely independent of the main battery pack.
I admit it seems more sensible to charge it direct from the battery pack, but then it seems more sensible to me to do away with the 12v battery all together. So if you're going to have a 12v battery it may aswell be completely independent of the main battery pack.
> Is that not charged via an alternator?
No, it's generally directly from main battery pack when the car is turned on, or when the car is charging. I would guses some models can also charge it now and then when the car is off, since some models are always connected to a cellular network.
> but then it seems more sensible to me to do away with the 12v battery all together.
No, no, no.. You need 12V when the car is off (for talking to key fob at the very least), but you probably don't want a DC-DC converter running from the main battery all the time. If you have trouble getting power from the main battery, it'll be hard to diagnose when none of the electronics work anymore. Having a redundant battery is a very good idea.
It's also a redundancy in case of emergency (some cars have buttons you can press to call emergency services).
I seem to remember Elon talking about removing it (of course), but they haven't yet, and I doubt they ever will.
No, it's generally directly from main battery pack when the car is turned on, or when the car is charging. I would guses some models can also charge it now and then when the car is off, since some models are always connected to a cellular network.
> but then it seems more sensible to me to do away with the 12v battery all together.
No, no, no.. You need 12V when the car is off (for talking to key fob at the very least), but you probably don't want a DC-DC converter running from the main battery all the time. If you have trouble getting power from the main battery, it'll be hard to diagnose when none of the electronics work anymore. Having a redundant battery is a very good idea.
It's also a redundancy in case of emergency (some cars have buttons you can press to call emergency services).
I seem to remember Elon talking about removing it (of course), but they haven't yet, and I doubt they ever will.
>but you probably don't want a DC-DC converter running from the main battery all the time. If you have trouble getting power from the main battery, it'll be hard to diagnose.
I don't get this. If the converter stops working the 12v battery dies and your car stops working. I don't get why it would be easier to diagnose if it only charges when on. I assume you're talking about the converter charging the 12v battery? Even if you aren't it would still be simple enough to have some 12v points to supply external power.
Further is it redundancy or doubling the chances of failure? You now have a 12v charger that could stop working, and a 12v battery that could stop working. Both of those break the car. If the main battery goes that's basically bricking the car and you aren't going anywhere anyway
I don't get this. If the converter stops working the 12v battery dies and your car stops working. I don't get why it would be easier to diagnose if it only charges when on. I assume you're talking about the converter charging the 12v battery? Even if you aren't it would still be simple enough to have some 12v points to supply external power.
Further is it redundancy or doubling the chances of failure? You now have a 12v charger that could stop working, and a 12v battery that could stop working. Both of those break the car. If the main battery goes that's basically bricking the car and you aren't going anywhere anyway
Hyundai already removed it (kind of) from some of their hybrid ICE cars! I say kind of because they just combined it with the traction battery and designed it to last the life of the car (using lithium instead of lead acid).
They do but it is typically smaller or even a LiFe battery which is nearly as light as lithium but has most of the high crank and 12v nominal application power needs, with larger charge windows and equal or higher discharge cycles.
The parent was talking about saving the weight of the alternator. That's what I was asking about rather than the battery.
Why would you need high crank for an ev???
Why would you need high crank for an ev???
A 30 mph ebike under $2k is absolutely doable. That's the top speed of mine, built with a Craigslist hardtail MTB and a $200 hub motor kit, powered by an electric lawn mower battery I found in an ewaste bin (14s, 7.5ah Samsung 25R cells). This battery can propel me about 8-10 miles (depending on wind, hills, etc.) at full throttle without much pedaling.
The problem is 60 miles range @ 30 mph needs a lot of battery. You can't really pedal fast enough to add a meaningful amount of leg power here, and even if you could, the extra wind resistance compared to tucking your legs in is a wash at best.
There's certainly room for efficiency improvements on my bike, but either way, enough battery to do 60 miles at 30mph SHOULD cost at least $1200-1500. Now if you want to go 20 mph that's a different story.
The problem is 60 miles range @ 30 mph needs a lot of battery. You can't really pedal fast enough to add a meaningful amount of leg power here, and even if you could, the extra wind resistance compared to tucking your legs in is a wash at best.
There's certainly room for efficiency improvements on my bike, but either way, enough battery to do 60 miles at 30mph SHOULD cost at least $1200-1500. Now if you want to go 20 mph that's a different story.
Enclosed suggests fairings which suggests better aero.
Aero drag really kicks in at 20+ mph so I would have thought it would be doable.
Plus capable of 30mph and actually doing that all the time are 2 separate things. There's still going to be the slow pootling. So you can still peddle then. Plus you could hear it to actually pedal at 30mph
Aero drag really kicks in at 20+ mph so I would have thought it would be doable.
Plus capable of 30mph and actually doing that all the time are 2 separate things. There's still going to be the slow pootling. So you can still peddle then. Plus you could hear it to actually pedal at 30mph
Agree - eBikes solve so many problems if we could only create there infra for them. Aside from co2, which is partially offset by the emissions from materials and manufacture, the only thing EVs really have going for them is less brake dust. However even that may be offset by the additional tire wear due to their weight and which contributes more to poor air quality than ice engines do these days. EVs being heavier also means more road maintenance required.
Basically EVs are just kicking the can down the road a little bit, within the confines of our culture and infrastructure, but do not solve our structural problems.
Basically EVs are just kicking the can down the road a little bit, within the confines of our culture and infrastructure, but do not solve our structural problems.
You have to be very careful when talking about relative pollutant emissions. Yes, the average EV is heavier and results in more tire wear and tire dust, but note that these particles are much larger (pm10 or larger) than most ICE particulates (~pm2.5). Heavier particles fall out of the air much faster and don't get stuck in the bottom of lungs. Overall pm2.5 particles are far more harmful to human health once inhaled as well.
Regarding maintenance, road wear is a high order function with axle weight - so trucks and weathering contribute the vast majority of wear. So light duty cars getting a bit heavier won't make much difference, and regulations already bound axle weights, so it won't be increasing for EV heavy duty vehicles.
This all being said, the average American city and suburb suck and totally need to be reorganized around literally anything except the automobile. Visiting the Netherlands just made me sad...thinking this is how nice cities can be. I imagine the mental health benefits of such city planning could even outweigh the environmental ones.
This all being said, the average American city and suburb suck and totally need to be reorganized around literally anything except the automobile. Visiting the Netherlands just made me sad...thinking this is how nice cities can be. I imagine the mental health benefits of such city planning could even outweigh the environmental ones.
We have a $400 (when on sale) ebike, it came with a shelf, a basket or panniers cost us $30. This is enough for a few days of groceries, or to get to work
We live between 2 minor state highways (4, 6 lanes) but the grocery is the in-between for us where roads have speed bumps to discourage through use.
We can go grocery shopping at 2 different grocery stores, we're a quick bike away from a light rail station.
We don't ride on sidewalks.
We live near Atlanta, in an area where 8/10 would say it's too dangerous to bike.
We live between 2 minor state highways (4, 6 lanes) but the grocery is the in-between for us where roads have speed bumps to discourage through use.
We can go grocery shopping at 2 different grocery stores, we're a quick bike away from a light rail station.
We don't ride on sidewalks.
We live near Atlanta, in an area where 8/10 would say it's too dangerous to bike.
> Ideally we'd just begin to phase out cars
Won't happen, if anything we'll have more cars due to the rebound effect.
It was a major chance to restructure everything and downscale our vehicles and associated infrastructures, we did the exact opposite, they're bigger, heavier, faster, harder to fix/work on, &c.
Won't happen, if anything we'll have more cars due to the rebound effect.
It was a major chance to restructure everything and downscale our vehicles and associated infrastructures, we did the exact opposite, they're bigger, heavier, faster, harder to fix/work on, &c.
Don't forget "but there will be more bicycles" is a much stupider and easier to call out excuse for trying to prevent affordable housing than "it will make traffic worse"
Also vehicles that are easier to stop are far better for small business owners and local economies.
Also keep in mind traffic speed is usually somewhere south of 20mph. You can get places quicker at 18mph non stop than you can at 30 or 50 with congestion caused by traffic control that has lower throughput on a 4 lane each way intersection than a single bike lane with no control.
30mph vehicles are LEVs not bicycles and should be treated as motorscooters or whichever similar law framework is available and not allowed on bike paths or shared paths. That said, I fully support LEV only zones possibly where bicycles are allowed in a similar vein to how they are allowed on roads and possibly before bike only zones in less urban areas)
Also vehicles that are easier to stop are far better for small business owners and local economies.
Also keep in mind traffic speed is usually somewhere south of 20mph. You can get places quicker at 18mph non stop than you can at 30 or 50 with congestion caused by traffic control that has lower throughput on a 4 lane each way intersection than a single bike lane with no control.
30mph vehicles are LEVs not bicycles and should be treated as motorscooters or whichever similar law framework is available and not allowed on bike paths or shared paths. That said, I fully support LEV only zones possibly where bicycles are allowed in a similar vein to how they are allowed on roads and possibly before bike only zones in less urban areas)
I'm surprised more people didn't reply to the enclosed part of your suggestion. One of the biggest advantages of a car for me is climate control: from wind, heat, cold, rain, snow, etc. Not just for me but also the items I'm carrying with me.
I really just want an enclosed electric bike/motorcycle with climate control. I liked Arcimoto for a while until they stopped focusing on the full climate control and decided to charge $18k and above.
So yes, please, an electric bicycle with climate control.
I really just want an enclosed electric bike/motorcycle with climate control. I liked Arcimoto for a while until they stopped focusing on the full climate control and decided to charge $18k and above.
So yes, please, an electric bicycle with climate control.
more than $2000, but https://www.litmotors.com/ was trying to do an enclosed self-balancing two-wheeler for a decade (their Founder/CEO has a pretty bad injury a few years ago) - supposedly they're reforming but we'll see.
Every few years I checkin to see how they’re doing, really would love to have one of these.
With the way cars and SUVs are growing though I feel like more mass and crumple zones are necessary for a safe driving experience though
With the way cars and SUVs are growing though I feel like more mass and crumple zones are necessary for a safe driving experience though
There are a bunch of these four-wheel bikes (https://vokbikes.com/) rolling around where I live. They're meant for commercial use and are slow enough for sidewalks and they do have a roof covering the rider. Cost more than $2000 though.
Four wheel bikes are technically illegal in some places. Texas, for example, considers anything with three or more wheels a motorcycle or car and requires that it be registered.
A good next step to transition vehicles to reasonable energy economy would be to start regulating down their mass and size, and update accident liability to heavily favour small vehicles. like emissions have been so far. This would enable sanely sized vehicles to safely coexist in traffic.
Renault Twizy was quite popular for short distances here in Europe.
I see the Renault Ami much better for this use.
- It's bigger (seats two tall people very comfortably. Or one plus your shopping.)
- It's half the price (12K€ for the Twizy vs 7K€ for the Ami)
- It has windows :P
- There's a "cargo" version (it substitutes the second seat for a cargo space).
What is an enclosed bicycle?? Maybe you could use a golf cart. You could get pretty close to 30 MPH and 60 Miles travel time for under $2k.
Velomobiles exist. The rotovelo is probably the closest to being designed for massproductio , but it's still about 3x that target.
But 30mph is too much for dedicated bike infrastructure and is just turning them into roads (although I support LEVs and LEV only zones, they're still not bicycles). 15-20mph is a human scaled speed limit where interactions are far less likely to cause accidents and impact energy is low enough to rarely cause major injury. It also makes enough battery for range trivial and makes the vehicles that become status quo far lighter and less dangerous.
But 30mph is too much for dedicated bike infrastructure and is just turning them into roads (although I support LEVs and LEV only zones, they're still not bicycles). 15-20mph is a human scaled speed limit where interactions are far less likely to cause accidents and impact energy is low enough to rarely cause major injury. It also makes enough battery for range trivial and makes the vehicles that become status quo far lighter and less dangerous.
A golf cart has to travel on the same roads as a car, except it's slower and less safe. No advantage really.
Anything travelling 30mph has to travel on the roads. Class 3 ebike owners who ride on shared use trails are a menace and a serious threat - to pedestrians, to other cyclists, and to any goodwill cycling has in the community.
Heck, I get sometimes overtaken by people riding illegal (in EU) ebikes on a bike path. Mine is heavy duty enough that it can maybe do 30 kph with leg power. Theirs do 45 kph and it's getting dangerous.
Mostly delivery people use those. The lanes are narrow, so if there's oncoming they would likely crash...
Mostly delivery people use those. The lanes are narrow, so if there's oncoming they would likely crash...
I am currently living in a seaside town where golf carts are a normal means of transportation. You see them out and about every day. On the main highway through town, they drive on the shoulder; everywhere else, they take a lane just like cars do. The people here clearly believe they have some advantage.
Slower is safer for pedestrians. It's safer alternative for (?) elders than a full featured car.
Changing lanes will be pretty difficult if the golf cart is much slower than general traffic.
Yeah it's pain as a car driver. There's no ideal solution.
> That being said I wish someone would make an enclosed bicycle/motorcycle that costs less than $2000. Something like that which can go 30mph and had space for 2 days of groceries would be enough for me to eliminate my car all together.
You can already get exactly that kind of vehicle for relatively cheap, though not as cheap as you're proposing... it's called an electric golf cart or, for the upscale versions, an "electrified low-speed vehicle". They start at about $5,000 from US manufacturers, but you can cut that down to around $3,500-$4,000 (including shipping) if you're willing to order off Aliexpress.
You can already get exactly that kind of vehicle for relatively cheap, though not as cheap as you're proposing... it's called an electric golf cart or, for the upscale versions, an "electrified low-speed vehicle". They start at about $5,000 from US manufacturers, but you can cut that down to around $3,500-$4,000 (including shipping) if you're willing to order off Aliexpress.
LSVs have basically all of the disadvantages of cars without any of the advantages considering used beaters are a thing imho.
Or a used smart car
The Organic Transit ELF and the BetterBike PEBL are enclosed electric trikes (two wheels in front, one in back) but are more expensive than your wish.
Both are currently out of production for engineering improvements with plans for assembly lines to reduce the cost and prices.
Organic Transit channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/OTvehicles
BetterBike channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC59bSWio0f0eSPd5MPpEPAg
Both are currently out of production for engineering improvements with plans for assembly lines to reduce the cost and prices.
Organic Transit channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/OTvehicles
BetterBike channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC59bSWio0f0eSPd5MPpEPAg
Came hear to mention the ELF and PBLE.
It's shocking to me that someone would expect an enclosed battery-electric vehicle to cost anywhere close to $2k unless their mental image is a cheap electric bike with a rain cape or something?
The ELF and PEBL start(ed) at $10k and while I could imagine that coming down a couple thousand dollars at high volumes I have trouble imagining what corners you could cut to hit a $2k or even $4k price point.
It's shocking to me that someone would expect an enclosed battery-electric vehicle to cost anywhere close to $2k unless their mental image is a cheap electric bike with a rain cape or something?
The ELF and PEBL start(ed) at $10k and while I could imagine that coming down a couple thousand dollars at high volumes I have trouble imagining what corners you could cut to hit a $2k or even $4k price point.
In a similar bucket is the Aptera I'd say, but also more expensive.
that being said, I'm wondering why companies don't double down on the BMW i3 model vs. the tesla X/Y/big SUV model? The i3 is 3000 lbs or less, and when it was discontinued, it had a bigger battery pack, and plenty of range and room for a family. In my mind, it's ideal...and it wasn't like there wasn't a market for it, as demand apparently was growing right up until end of production
I otherwise agree that American cities and suburbs need a healthy injection of bicycling adoption, infrastructure and design.
I otherwise agree that American cities and suburbs need a healthy injection of bicycling adoption, infrastructure and design.
i3 is one of the vehicles that designers thought end user is a "eco freak" vs "normal person". It's pleasant to drive, but extremely ugly.
I was actually talking to a Volvo designer at a talk here - I am a huge Polestar One/Volvo Concept Coupe/P1800 design fan and wanted to ask him about continuing that line of design. his point was, that body shape, the classical "beautiful" profile - long hood, cabin all the way back, was really that way in order to accommodate large V8/V10 racing engines, large transmissions, etc. With EV's, no need to accommodate such things, and they could better economize the use of space.
When the i3 first came out, I would be inclined to agree with you - it's the opposite of the E9 or the E46. But the late-generation models have been growing on me, once the context for which they were designed became more clear.
The i3 interior is fantastic, though
When the i3 first came out, I would be inclined to agree with you - it's the opposite of the E9 or the E46. But the late-generation models have been growing on me, once the context for which they were designed became more clear.
The i3 interior is fantastic, though
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. The i3 styling was clearly distinguished from other BMWs and not in a good way.
>The i3 is 3000 lbs or less, and when it was discontinued, it had a bigger battery pack
Wikipedia says that the i3 had at best a 42 kWh battery pack. The smallest battery that Tesla will ship you inside a car these days is 60 kWh (Model 3 Standard Range).
Wikipedia says that the i3 had at best a 42 kWh battery pack. The smallest battery that Tesla will ship you inside a car these days is 60 kWh (Model 3 Standard Range).
I think that was the point of a recent article - Niedermayer, I think - most of the driving I do is commuting, and I don't really need more than the 150 mile range that 42 kWh pack gives you...
The flip side is the smallest Tesla is 3700 lbs or so, vs i3 is a hair under 3000
Technologies evolve, though, so I feel like the next (potential) revolution is to use a light CFRP chassis like the i3 w/ next gen batteries.
The flip side is the smallest Tesla is 3700 lbs or so, vs i3 is a hair under 3000
Technologies evolve, though, so I feel like the next (potential) revolution is to use a light CFRP chassis like the i3 w/ next gen batteries.
Taking advantage of bike lanes in cities is a huge advantage for a battery/motor assisted bicycle, but I do most of what you describe with a Yamaha XT250. Just don't go out if it looks like rain. You have your helmet and pack a raincoat in case you get unlucky. To carry some groceries you could easily rig a small rack on the back where you can attach/detach a grated plastic crate. Then put some in a backpack.
I don't do all of that but I could easily do it. I'm at the stage of my life where owning a small truck like a Tacoma or Maverick makes a lot of sense due to the utility. You have a lot of good ideas. On your negatives for EVs, I'd say walking infrastructure can't really occur without living in a dense city. Pipedream otherwise. Acceleration is less of a problem rather than people not paying attention at all, smartphones. As far as the weight, that will go down over time as solid state batteries come around.
I wouldn't trade my motorcycle for an EV motorcycle without significant advances, I also don't see interstate towing being overtaken by EVs anytime soon. You just can't beat a diesel for that whether it be in a pickup, van, or semi, and it will be tough to do so. Yet EVs in general are definitely inevitable as they are already better for countywide travel.
I don't do all of that but I could easily do it. I'm at the stage of my life where owning a small truck like a Tacoma or Maverick makes a lot of sense due to the utility. You have a lot of good ideas. On your negatives for EVs, I'd say walking infrastructure can't really occur without living in a dense city. Pipedream otherwise. Acceleration is less of a problem rather than people not paying attention at all, smartphones. As far as the weight, that will go down over time as solid state batteries come around.
I wouldn't trade my motorcycle for an EV motorcycle without significant advances, I also don't see interstate towing being overtaken by EVs anytime soon. You just can't beat a diesel for that whether it be in a pickup, van, or semi, and it will be tough to do so. Yet EVs in general are definitely inevitable as they are already better for countywide travel.
XT250 IMO is not very convenient for shopping.
Something like Majesty 400 is much better, or even old 2T 100cc Neo's if you can find one. It's amazing how much stuff fits in under the saddle. And I once moved a full-size ironing board on the latter, just duct-taped it to a rear handle and the front. Can't go that crazy on a proper motorcycle.
Something like Majesty 400 is much better, or even old 2T 100cc Neo's if you can find one. It's amazing how much stuff fits in under the saddle. And I once moved a full-size ironing board on the latter, just duct-taped it to a rear handle and the front. Can't go that crazy on a proper motorcycle.
I agree. It’s not the best choice probably but it’s what I have. I’m a dual sport fan, enjoying trail rides. There’s definitely better grocery getters.
I did have a Yamaha moped years ago and it is surprising how much fits under those seats. They’re just so slippery on rocks and sand due to the small wheels on scooters. I remember taking a spill going around a corner just on pavement a couple times.
I did have a Yamaha moped years ago and it is surprising how much fits under those seats. They’re just so slippery on rocks and sand due to the small wheels on scooters. I remember taking a spill going around a corner just on pavement a couple times.
Well, yes, there is that. Although when you get at or above 12" wheels it's much better.
Still, we have a local saying here - if you ride you fall at least once a year. If you didn't fall - you're not riding, you're pretending to.
Still, we have a local saying here - if you ride you fall at least once a year. If you didn't fall - you're not riding, you're pretending to.
> This additional housing will increase density, making bikes only more viable
It will also increase the tax revenue per infrastructure spend ratio, since denser areas have more tax revenue generated from multiple households and businesses, for nearly the same amount of sewage, roads, electricity etc.
It will also increase the tax revenue per infrastructure spend ratio, since denser areas have more tax revenue generated from multiple households and businesses, for nearly the same amount of sewage, roads, electricity etc.
> Ideally we'd just begin to phase out cars ideally, as opposed to transition to EVs from ICE, but I suppose baby steps are warranted here.
Moving to electrified cars is an enormous step. It might look babyish now it's happening, but it wasn't even on the table 15 years ago.
Moving to electrified cars is an enormous step. It might look babyish now it's happening, but it wasn't even on the table 15 years ago.
Rain isn't really a problem with the appropriate clothing. (Speaking as someone that rides year round for transportation in Wisconsin.) The only problem I've had is downpours can soak your shoes but I just have an extra pair of shoes at work and at home.
Rain is definitely a problem for a vehicle which depends on lateral tilt to turn and which depends on inertia to stay upright. Speaking as someone who has ridden many years round in Seattle, where the roads lean along with the hills even where the hills aren’t that steep. Those turns are a mistake or an unexpected cross vehicle away from a crash on our driest days, but the rain really amplifies that danger.
Rain wouldn't be such a problem if we had dedicated biking infrastructure ala The Netherlands. We need to rethink the design of our cities to move away from this car-dependent box we've put ourselves in, because just adopting EVs isn't enough.
I've driven in Seattle in the rain, and some streets (especially near Pike Place Market) are so steep that once my wheels lost their grip and slipped and rolled downhill a little at an intersection. I'm not sure why it's even safe to design an intersection on a very steep road that's difficult to stop at.
Water and slopes are not a good combination for road safety even for four-wheelers.
Water and slopes are not a good combination for road safety even for four-wheelers.
> I'm not sure why it's even safe to design an intersection on a very steep road that's difficult to stop at.
If you want to know the alternative, cross reference the Denny regrade (for historical precedent of making the hills safer to scale) and the West Seattle Bridge (for current frame of reference of how a relatively small infrastructure project has a huge impact). Nearly all of the roads heading east out of downtown have a high grade somewhere uphill that drivers struggle with even on dry days. Gratefully most of the worst car routes aren’t major bike routes.
If you want to know the alternative, cross reference the Denny regrade (for historical precedent of making the hills safer to scale) and the West Seattle Bridge (for current frame of reference of how a relatively small infrastructure project has a huge impact). Nearly all of the roads heading east out of downtown have a high grade somewhere uphill that drivers struggle with even on dry days. Gratefully most of the worst car routes aren’t major bike routes.
Dedicated infrastructure and sane speeds solve this problem neatly.
I agree that rain isn't really a huge problem (though I still consider it a problem), but without enclosure you're unlikely to take random trips as you might not be able to change.
What are you wearing to keep your head from turning into a block of ice? We always end staying off the bike for the coldest months of the year.
You could switch to a ski helmet, those have removeable insulation pads. Otherwise a tight fitting thermal cap should do if you are huffing and puffing.
> Something like that which can go 30mph and had space for 2 days of groceries
This kind of thing already exists outside the USA. Here's a $1200 "car" you can order off Alibaba: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBz9zLFEa70
And some people are trying to make more stylish "apple-esque" versions to appeal to Americans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpiH-Y-HOvE
This kind of thing already exists outside the USA. Here's a $1200 "car" you can order off Alibaba: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBz9zLFEa70
And some people are trying to make more stylish "apple-esque" versions to appeal to Americans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpiH-Y-HOvE
The fact you even suggest that phasing out cars is possible, I cannot take your comment seriously.
Outside if big cities this is not even a remote possibility, most people there travel big distances in various weather conditions on a daily basis.
Even in big cities this seems unrealistic. Thinking for example of NYC, many folks travel fir work from the outer boroughs to Manhattan, from areas where public transit isn't readily available, and just taking the bike is not even realistic.
Outside if big cities this is not even a remote possibility, most people there travel big distances in various weather conditions on a daily basis.
Even in big cities this seems unrealistic. Thinking for example of NYC, many folks travel fir work from the outer boroughs to Manhattan, from areas where public transit isn't readily available, and just taking the bike is not even realistic.
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I would guess some fraction of that cardiovascular issue is due to urban air pollution, which EVs (and renewables) will improve to the extent that people will be able to draw a causal link by looking at areas that switched to EVs at different times.
But cycling is great, more people should do it. And this is why I like the idea of 'gas tax' being replaced with something that accounts for all the remaining externalities of urban driving.
But cycling is great, more people should do it. And this is why I like the idea of 'gas tax' being replaced with something that accounts for all the remaining externalities of urban driving.
There's this but it's $9995 and 20mph.
https://veemo.ca/
https://veemo.ca/
In Europe there's a whole class of vehicles that are just enclosed quadricycles. They're limited to 45km/h and have some sort of weight limit, but they're great "city cars".
A lot of electric ones have been popping up, although many of them are closer to the $5000-9000 price point.
A lot of electric ones have been popping up, although many of them are closer to the $5000-9000 price point.
> - EVs are much heavier than their equivalent ICE vehicles.
Extra:
- more tire and road particulates pollution
- more road wear (someone said something like road wear is the power of 4 of the weight of the vehicle, which makes extra weight particularly awful), ergo higher infra expenses
Extra:
- more tire and road particulates pollution
- more road wear (someone said something like road wear is the power of 4 of the weight of the vehicle, which makes extra weight particularly awful), ergo higher infra expenses
Further benefits: biking with proper infrastructure without cars is possible for children as well and for those who can't afford a car or (as eBike or tricycle) for the elder who don't want to drive anymore. This gives mobility to large groups of society.
It might come. People are buying bike cargo nowadays. A weathered electric powered would make sense.
"Ideally we'd just begin to phase out cars ideally"
I likely cycled more km, than I drove by car and I do not intend to change that, but for long distance trips with the whole family, a car is hard to beat or replace.
I likely cycled more km, than I drove by car and I do not intend to change that, but for long distance trips with the whole family, a car is hard to beat or replace.
[deleted]
Try a VanMoof, it costs slightly more but is worth it.
Maybe the Smart EQ Fortwo? Hard to get in the US and out of your price point, but if you're more interested in the vehicle than the price.
Funny that you mention that, I had a Smart Fortwo EV. Got destroyed by a Ford truck. I loved that little car.
Bloody hell. Well I'm glad you're okay.
No idea if it is past vaporware but there is Elio motors
Also, heavier cars mean more tire dust.
Thoughts on LSVs?
Helps with the accidents but otherwise has most of the same disadvantages as a car.
As a long time daily biker I don't understand the trend of heftier more powerful ebikes. Instead of bulking a bike up to me it makes more sense to slim cars down.
I've been trying to find tiny electric two seater cars, but I've been disappointed in the lack of anything in the US, they're more available in europe and Japan.
Actually now that I typed this comment out I think I understand the trend of heftier ebikes, it's a way to skirt the regulations around making a "street legal" vehicle, which is what prevents any innovation in the <$10k tiny car segment.
I've been trying to find tiny electric two seater cars, but I've been disappointed in the lack of anything in the US, they're more available in europe and Japan.
Actually now that I typed this comment out I think I understand the trend of heftier ebikes, it's a way to skirt the regulations around making a "street legal" vehicle, which is what prevents any innovation in the <$10k tiny car segment.
> Actually now that I typed this comment out I think I understand the trend of heftier ebikes, it's a way to skirt the regulations around making a "street legal" vehicle, which is what prevents any innovation in the <$10k tiny car segment.
Yeah. American regulations call monster trucks cars, they don't have cars and they call LEVs bicycles.
Yeah. American regulations call monster trucks cars, they don't have cars and they call LEVs bicycles.
> I love EVs. That being said I wish someone would make an enclosed bicycle/motorcycle that costs less than $2000.
I don't love EVs yet, but I would love a reasonably priced electric motorcycle. I'm not even sure if overall they are greener with the current grid.
I don't love EVs yet, but I would love a reasonably priced electric motorcycle. I'm not even sure if overall they are greener with the current grid.
Look into the sondors meta cycle. Around $6500.
I live 3 miles from work but I'd risk my life if I tired walking. There is a highway between us and the ONLY bridge over has no sidewalk, a big hill and 1,000 of idiots late for work who hate cyclests for some reason.
Cities like Columbus Ohio are just terrible places to live unless you live car culture.
Cities like Columbus Ohio are just terrible places to live unless you live car culture.
> EVs are much heavier than their equivalent ICE vehicles. Hopefully this doesn't result in EV accidents being more likely to have a fatality
This isn't a matter of hope.
Heavier things traveling the same speed have more momentum..
Momentum kills
This isn't a matter of hope.
Heavier things traveling the same speed have more momentum..
Momentum kills
> Momentum kills
I'd say it's somewhere in between momentum and energy. A motorbike doing 300km/h is more dangerous than a car doing 35km/h or a concrete truck at walking pace.
I'd say it's somewhere in between momentum and energy. A motorbike doing 300km/h is more dangerous than a car doing 35km/h or a concrete truck at walking pace.
As someone that is currently in the market for a new car, I would love to get an EV, but I also don't have a good way to charge. Seems like most EV owners just charge at their house, but what about people that don't have access to a good power tap? (apartment dwellers, renters, etc.)
Sometimes it feels like there is a group of EV elites out there that are predicting the complete demise of ICEs while conveniently downplaying the problem of charging access. I live on the outskirts of a major metro area. I've looked at the charging maps, and there just aren't good chargers available right now. I really hope that chargers will become ubiquitous in my area in the future, but until that happens, I don't have a great choice.
And so, my next car is going to just be a standard ICE hybrid. I hope that will be the last ICE I have to buy, but for right now, an EV seems like it is just not quite practical for me.
Sometimes it feels like there is a group of EV elites out there that are predicting the complete demise of ICEs while conveniently downplaying the problem of charging access. I live on the outskirts of a major metro area. I've looked at the charging maps, and there just aren't good chargers available right now. I really hope that chargers will become ubiquitous in my area in the future, but until that happens, I don't have a great choice.
And so, my next car is going to just be a standard ICE hybrid. I hope that will be the last ICE I have to buy, but for right now, an EV seems like it is just not quite practical for me.
Thanks for raising this issue—as you point out, it's often ignored—but I'd posit it's even worse than you (and others on this thread) indicate.
When the issue is framed at all, it's usually boiled down to "landlords won't want to install chargers in the apartment garages" with the possible counterpoint of "demand will force them to" or there will be subsidies or etc etc.
But there are vast, vast numbers of people whose permanent parking situation is literally "on the street in front of my building"... or down the block... or around the corner... or wherever there's a spot free. This poses two tremendous difficulties for EV adoption. First, now we're talking not just about upgrading an electrical supply and mounting a new outlet; to bring overnight charging to street parking we'd need to dig up and re-lay concrete and asphalt. Second, people already grumble about "someone took my spot" and get a lot louder about it when there's something dedicated about the spot (google "Chicago dibs" for some serious rage on this topic) and if some-but-not-all of the street spots have charging stations, you better believe the fights over them will be epic, neighbourhood-destroying affairs.
Street parking is a central problem for anyone pushing widespread EV adoption. It can't be driven purely from consumer demand.
ETA: Can someone who spends a lot of time in California tell me if there's a lot of overnight street parking there? Because I've suspected that there isn't and that that's why this gets overlooked, but there might be some other reason.
When the issue is framed at all, it's usually boiled down to "landlords won't want to install chargers in the apartment garages" with the possible counterpoint of "demand will force them to" or there will be subsidies or etc etc.
But there are vast, vast numbers of people whose permanent parking situation is literally "on the street in front of my building"... or down the block... or around the corner... or wherever there's a spot free. This poses two tremendous difficulties for EV adoption. First, now we're talking not just about upgrading an electrical supply and mounting a new outlet; to bring overnight charging to street parking we'd need to dig up and re-lay concrete and asphalt. Second, people already grumble about "someone took my spot" and get a lot louder about it when there's something dedicated about the spot (google "Chicago dibs" for some serious rage on this topic) and if some-but-not-all of the street spots have charging stations, you better believe the fights over them will be epic, neighbourhood-destroying affairs.
Street parking is a central problem for anyone pushing widespread EV adoption. It can't be driven purely from consumer demand.
ETA: Can someone who spends a lot of time in California tell me if there's a lot of overnight street parking there? Because I've suspected that there isn't and that that's why this gets overlooked, but there might be some other reason.
I feel like most of these issues are solved in Norway now. There's plenty of people with just street side parking in Oslo. The municipality set up public charging poles on a lot of them. They were free to begin with but now you have to pay. There's always a shortage since scaling up fast enough is hard during this transition, but in the long term I don't think it'll be a problem.
At the same time, there fast chargers eeeeeverywhere now. Supermarket, gyms, shopping mall, hardware store, etc. I would be fine just charging whenever I shop for food. Most of them were built in like the last 5-7 years.
There's legislation that encourages or forces apartment buildings with garages to install charging points.
There's really no significant technical barrier that hasn't been already solved in Norway. So it's down to cost and political will. I'm optimistic that even in the US this will solve itself in the coming years.
At the same time, there fast chargers eeeeeverywhere now. Supermarket, gyms, shopping mall, hardware store, etc. I would be fine just charging whenever I shop for food. Most of them were built in like the last 5-7 years.
There's legislation that encourages or forces apartment buildings with garages to install charging points.
There's really no significant technical barrier that hasn't been already solved in Norway. So it's down to cost and political will. I'm optimistic that even in the US this will solve itself in the coming years.
In my country, they solved that overnight street parking pretty easily. If there's not a charger close by, you can request the city council to place a charger in your street. They do indeed dig it up, wire it to some electrical lines there and there's your charger. And the cost? Commercial companies actually do all of this and you just pay for the electricity when you charge, the city council takes care of the permits. Win/win/win situation I'd say.
There's lots of overnight street parking in the bay area, but there are lots of other opportunities to charge. The actual hard case is someone that drives a significant amount during the day, doesn't have charging at work, and can't have charging overnight. Here really the only option is DC fast charging.
However, this is a reasonable rare circumstance, and it's only getting easier to charge.
However, this is a reasonable rare circumstance, and it's only getting easier to charge.
One potential source of traffic in LA that will be tough to meet with an EV solution as currently offered is the 'handyman' persona. Either legitimate businessmen such as plumbers or landscapers and what not, or those people who extend their truck beds with plywood to stack the scrap as high as the freeway bridges will let them, either way all of these groups of people are driving all day, at all hours, to oddball places all over the place, and are in need of cargo space. The job site of the day might not have reliable drinking water let alone a supercharger for you to tap into.
The streets in my neighbourhood have plenty of parked vehicles with extension cords running out to them. The cords are there to power block heaters, not to charge EVs. Nevertheless, that would at least be one option for slow charging.
Maybe finally THIS will force regulation of parking so people will simply have no way of leaving their car in a random place like that. Japanese way of doing it - "if you don't have a permanent, legally fixed place to park your car, you can't buy a car" - is just right.
We have too many cars filling in sidewalks, narrow city roads reducing them to single-lane, and so on. That's a problem in itself, and while it was only about people's convenience, harsh measures were hard to justify - but now we can frame it as "it's either that or Putin is coming for you" - and it becomes easier.
We have too many cars filling in sidewalks, narrow city roads reducing them to single-lane, and so on. That's a problem in itself, and while it was only about people's convenience, harsh measures were hard to justify - but now we can frame it as "it's either that or Putin is coming for you" - and it becomes easier.
Why would a landlord pay good money to build something that they can charge people to use for short periods of time and recoup their investment and start to profit in their sleep over a medium term timescale?
And cities, creating places for cars to park and forcing them to pay for that, either charging the car owner directly at the time or through taxes? I just can't imagine that.
And cities, creating places for cars to park and forcing them to pay for that, either charging the car owner directly at the time or through taxes? I just can't imagine that.
We have street-side car charging in my neighbourhood in London now, and it didn't seem to be too difficult to install. There's a mix of outlets retrofitted into lampposts, and ports sunk into the pavement. I don't think they had to dig up the whole street. Just locally where they were actually installing the charging port.
> Sometimes it feels like there is a group of EV elites out there that are predicting the complete demise of ICEs while conveniently downplaying the problem of charging access.
I see the opposite. Every single discussion of EVs, people come out of the woodwork with all the edgecases/usecaes where current EVs don't fare so favourably to ICEs.
Guess what! EVs don't have to be perfect in every scenario to be better for a growing number of people. The cars and infrastructure continue to improve, and the number of edgecase are slowly falling like dominos.
Range not suitable for people that are regularly driving 1000km commutes? Lots of people have driving habits where a > 200km trip is a rarity. And available range keeps increasing as the tech improves.
Battery charging not so great in places with subzero temperatures have the year? Lots of people live in warmer climates. No doubt, someone is looking at improved battery chemistries or thermal regulation to help here.
Can't charge at home because you live in a studio apartment with no off street parking? There a lot of people that own their own homes, or have apartments with off-street parking. Meanwhile more charging stations are being installed at shopping centres, businesses, in reserved on street parking.
Why do people think EVs have to serve every single person perfectly before we'll see adoption? Why do they think the cars and infrastructure is going to remain static going forward? This transition is going to happen over a 10-20 year period as EVs improve, and old ICE cars are retired. It's not all happening next year.
Personally, I will buy one as soon as I have determined they make the most sense for me, just like everyone will. For some, that will be now, for others it will be five years from now, for some it will be 20 years from now.
I see the opposite. Every single discussion of EVs, people come out of the woodwork with all the edgecases/usecaes where current EVs don't fare so favourably to ICEs.
Guess what! EVs don't have to be perfect in every scenario to be better for a growing number of people. The cars and infrastructure continue to improve, and the number of edgecase are slowly falling like dominos.
Range not suitable for people that are regularly driving 1000km commutes? Lots of people have driving habits where a > 200km trip is a rarity. And available range keeps increasing as the tech improves.
Battery charging not so great in places with subzero temperatures have the year? Lots of people live in warmer climates. No doubt, someone is looking at improved battery chemistries or thermal regulation to help here.
Can't charge at home because you live in a studio apartment with no off street parking? There a lot of people that own their own homes, or have apartments with off-street parking. Meanwhile more charging stations are being installed at shopping centres, businesses, in reserved on street parking.
Why do people think EVs have to serve every single person perfectly before we'll see adoption? Why do they think the cars and infrastructure is going to remain static going forward? This transition is going to happen over a 10-20 year period as EVs improve, and old ICE cars are retired. It's not all happening next year.
Personally, I will buy one as soon as I have determined they make the most sense for me, just like everyone will. For some, that will be now, for others it will be five years from now, for some it will be 20 years from now.
Let me add one more, and I don't think it's an edge case but for some reason nobody talks about it - a large percentage of people just don't want them. That, to me, is the biggest blocker of adoption. Most of the other arguments people have against EVs are engineering problems that would be solved quickly if demand was high enough - but demand is not high, only 2.5% of automobile sales in the US were EVs last year, and only 1% of the automobiles on the road today are EVs.
if you think people don't want them, try to buy one. the main reason that they're only 2.5% of sales is because not enough are being made.
I realize my argument made it seem like I was using the sales data to justify my claim, but that wasn't really what I was going for - my mistake. I am aware of the demand issues, but the question is how far does that scale?
The current market for EVs seems to be middle to upper class city-dwellers who own their own homes and commute less than an hour each day. That is certainly a sizable market that will scale to a point, but what about after that point? What about rural folks who have no need for an EV and are perfectly content to drive ICE vehicles the rest of their lives? What about people who refuse to buy EVs for ideological reasons? What about car enthusiasts who love the roar of a V8? What about people who can't afford to spend 35k+ USD on a new (and base) model EV? What about people who need heavy duty trucks? What about people who have large families and need something with generous seating capacity and the ability to tow the occasional boat or RV for family trips?
Point being, there are large parts of the market that are either underserved because there isn't an EV that matches their needs, or they have no desire to be served at all.
The current market for EVs seems to be middle to upper class city-dwellers who own their own homes and commute less than an hour each day. That is certainly a sizable market that will scale to a point, but what about after that point? What about rural folks who have no need for an EV and are perfectly content to drive ICE vehicles the rest of their lives? What about people who refuse to buy EVs for ideological reasons? What about car enthusiasts who love the roar of a V8? What about people who can't afford to spend 35k+ USD on a new (and base) model EV? What about people who need heavy duty trucks? What about people who have large families and need something with generous seating capacity and the ability to tow the occasional boat or RV for family trips?
Point being, there are large parts of the market that are either underserved because there isn't an EV that matches their needs, or they have no desire to be served at all.
For some reason your making the assumption EVs and related infrastructure are not improving all the time. ICE cars are not improving very much, where EVs are getting cheaper each year. Eventually there will be cheaper options, and a 2nd hand market. Eventually there will be heavy duty trucks. Eventually there will be options with generous seating capacity.
Yes there are some people that love the roar of a v7, some people think the choice is political. But the vast majority don't give a shit. It will come down to function and economics. Eventually EVs will beat out ICEs in more an more usecases per $ spent, and then many of the people holding out for ideological reasons will switch because they're friends and family are all driving them.
There will eventually be a tipping point where gas stations start shutting down because of EV becoming a significant part of the market, which I think will start a feedback loop. Gas stations that survive on slim margins will be uneconomical with 20% EV adoption, will either shut down or raise prices. This will make it worse to own an ICE for more people, that will switch to EVs. Then more stations are out under pressure, rinse and repeat.
Yes there are some people that love the roar of a v7, some people think the choice is political. But the vast majority don't give a shit. It will come down to function and economics. Eventually EVs will beat out ICEs in more an more usecases per $ spent, and then many of the people holding out for ideological reasons will switch because they're friends and family are all driving them.
There will eventually be a tipping point where gas stations start shutting down because of EV becoming a significant part of the market, which I think will start a feedback loop. Gas stations that survive on slim margins will be uneconomical with 20% EV adoption, will either shut down or raise prices. This will make it worse to own an ICE for more people, that will switch to EVs. Then more stations are out under pressure, rinse and repeat.
The low purchase amount is a supply issue, not a demand issue. I’ve talked to many people who want to buy an EV but can’t because all the dealers nearby have a waiting list of over a year long to buy one.
I believe it is a supply issue currently and will continue to be to a certain point, but that point falls far short of ubiquitous adoption.
I've been driving an EV for over a year now. I don't have my own parking spot here in the city (one of the larger cities in Belgium) but there are around 10 public charging stations within walking distance of my house. Charging my car once a week by relying only on these public chargers has not been a problem so far. I think with the proper investment by the authorities this not a big problem.
I am a bit worried about the adoption of PHEVs though, as those tend to charge much more slowly and need to be recharged much more often than a full EV. I think it should be discouraged to get a PHEV if you do not have private charging infrastructure.
I am a bit worried about the adoption of PHEVs though, as those tend to charge much more slowly and need to be recharged much more often than a full EV. I think it should be discouraged to get a PHEV if you do not have private charging infrastructure.
what about people that don't have access to a good power tap? (apartment dwellers, renters, etc.)
I've lived in two apartment buildings that had electric car chargers. In both buildings, the chargers were constantly engaged.
Hopefully some of that electric infrastructure money ends up putting chargers in private and public parking garages. I think that would give people more confidence that they could switch.
Related question: Once you charge an electric car, how long can it sit before it discharges on its own? Like how if you charge your cell phone, but even if you don't use your phone, eventually the batteries will still run out.
I don't drive much, so I wonder if it is practical for me to charge an EV in an apartment garage, then move it to another space and leave it for a week or two or three and it still be full?
I've lived in two apartment buildings that had electric car chargers. In both buildings, the chargers were constantly engaged.
Hopefully some of that electric infrastructure money ends up putting chargers in private and public parking garages. I think that would give people more confidence that they could switch.
Related question: Once you charge an electric car, how long can it sit before it discharges on its own? Like how if you charge your cell phone, but even if you don't use your phone, eventually the batteries will still run out.
I don't drive much, so I wonder if it is practical for me to charge an EV in an apartment garage, then move it to another space and leave it for a week or two or three and it still be full?
A Tesla Model 3 loses around 1% charge per day idle
Depends on what is doing (see, Tesla sentry mode which keeps the cameras on) but otherwise self-discharge is well under 1%/day for most EVs
In my experience, charging networks are growing rapidly. Unfortunately so is EV ownership and it's outpacing the charging network(in the Bay Area anyway).
I think EVs mostly make sense for certain types of commuters or those with private garages/home chargers. You can certainly get by with a charger at work(i did) or use public chargers but it will depend on your area and your tolerance level. Public chargers can often cause headaches. Broken or busy chargers... Requirements to move your vehicle quickly after charging.. Commuting to a local charger.. the system needs work.
I'm about to give up my EV. I think I owned it during a sweet spot(lots of chargers, less competing EVs, and high gas prices). I'm happy going back to gas for a while. I don't see an advantage to buying an EV right now for me. EVs will still be there in a few years and I can always switch back.
I think EVs mostly make sense for certain types of commuters or those with private garages/home chargers. You can certainly get by with a charger at work(i did) or use public chargers but it will depend on your area and your tolerance level. Public chargers can often cause headaches. Broken or busy chargers... Requirements to move your vehicle quickly after charging.. Commuting to a local charger.. the system needs work.
I'm about to give up my EV. I think I owned it during a sweet spot(lots of chargers, less competing EVs, and high gas prices). I'm happy going back to gas for a while. I don't see an advantage to buying an EV right now for me. EVs will still be there in a few years and I can always switch back.
Once EV's become mandated for all new car sales, I fully expect new laws requiring rentals w/parking to provide EV charging facilities. They already require things like toilets and proper bathroom/shower ventilation, it's not particularly new ground to force landlords to jump through such hoops.
As an EV owner, I would say you either need access to a commercial charger (e.g. at work) or be able to charge at home. But either of those alternatives would be fine by itself.
I don't charge at home, but do most of my charging in the parking garage at work. This is not a fast charger (~2kW), but is wholly sufficient because I just plug it in in the morning. Alternatively, you could charge at home and not having access to any other charging would also be fine. The home charger doesn't even need to be good, because you can just leave it in overnight and even for a slow charge this will fill up aroun d 200km. The only time I actually use a "supercharger" location is for road trips.
The two most common qualms I hear from prospective EV buyers is range anxiety and time to charge. None of these are real issues for me. A full battery anyway lasts for around 400km, which is either 2 weeks of driving to work for me, or ~4 hours of roadtrip driving. After 4 hours of driving on the highway, I have no problems waiting 20min at a supercharger while I get food. Usually, the charger is actually too fast for me in this case.
I don't charge at home, but do most of my charging in the parking garage at work. This is not a fast charger (~2kW), but is wholly sufficient because I just plug it in in the morning. Alternatively, you could charge at home and not having access to any other charging would also be fine. The home charger doesn't even need to be good, because you can just leave it in overnight and even for a slow charge this will fill up aroun d 200km. The only time I actually use a "supercharger" location is for road trips.
The two most common qualms I hear from prospective EV buyers is range anxiety and time to charge. None of these are real issues for me. A full battery anyway lasts for around 400km, which is either 2 weeks of driving to work for me, or ~4 hours of roadtrip driving. After 4 hours of driving on the highway, I have no problems waiting 20min at a supercharger while I get food. Usually, the charger is actually too fast for me in this case.
> I live on the outskirts of a major metro area. I've looked at the charging maps, and there just aren't good chargers available right now.
If EV adoption is low in your metro area, then EVs may only be convenient for home owners and folks who live near charging stations until more people get EVs.
Once there is a critical mass of EVs in your area (or even just passing through), then stations will pop up everywhere.
I live in a non-urban coastal area of California, and there are multiple EV stations at almost every mall and every Target within an hour drive of where I live (probably wider than that, but I haven’t really checked).
If EV adoption is low in your metro area, then EVs may only be convenient for home owners and folks who live near charging stations until more people get EVs.
Once there is a critical mass of EVs in your area (or even just passing through), then stations will pop up everywhere.
I live in a non-urban coastal area of California, and there are multiple EV stations at almost every mall and every Target within an hour drive of where I live (probably wider than that, but I haven’t really checked).
With mass adoption of EVs and the further move to solar power, charging during the day is the sensible. Which mostly means chargers at workplaces.
(Not saying we don't need charging close to appartments at all, but workplace charging can alleviate some of it.)
(Not saying we don't need charging close to appartments at all, but workplace charging can alleviate some of it.)
there's going to be a huge market for tech that lets landlords of large apartments easily install carpark outlets and track usage
Depending on how much you drive, and how far you live from a fastcharger, you could very well do without a local slower charger.
The early adopters prove the market and make it so that charging infrastructure becomes more prevalent.
I have owned a Tesla, and I leased my wife a Bolt a while back. She's convinced, I'm convinced, but with the lease coming to an end next year we probably will not replace the Bolt with another EV. Why? Prices. I was ready to buy a Mach E, but then Ford raised the price something like 6 grand while simultaneously losing the $7500 tax credit. That effectively bumps the price of the car into a territory I don't think makes a good value.
So instead we're putting ourselves on the waiting list for a RAV4 Prime. We'll still reap most of the benefits of plugging in, but the price is much more palatable for what you get.
So instead we're putting ourselves on the waiting list for a RAV4 Prime. We'll still reap most of the benefits of plugging in, but the price is much more palatable for what you get.
This is a big problem. There isn't enough EV manufacturing capacity to meet demand. So, right now, EVs are being treated by auto manufacturers as a premium product with huge markups. Tesla never did ship a $35K car, and Ford's electric F-150 is substantially more expensive than the gas version. Worse, electrics tend to come with all the useless high-end trim options. Price the Jeep Wrangler EV.
I wonder if we will ever get back low-margin cars. Auto companies are getting addicted to high margins and post-purchase charges. The CEO of Stellantis is explicit about this.
The end result may be BYD replacing Chevrolet or Toyota.[1]
[1] https://en.byd.com/auto/
I wonder if we will ever get back low-margin cars. Auto companies are getting addicted to high margins and post-purchase charges. The CEO of Stellantis is explicit about this.
The end result may be BYD replacing Chevrolet or Toyota.[1]
[1] https://en.byd.com/auto/
The CEO of Ford, Jim Farley, said that he's expecting a price war among manufacturers to bring entry level EVs down to $25k: https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ford-ceo-sees-electric-v...
He thinks most manufacturers will go LFP, and increasing scale of LFP cell production plus the low material cost will crater the price of the battery pack. He also wants to go to direct online sales, and cut advertising:
>Ford, like Tesla, may not have to buy advertising to sell EVs, which now amounts to $500 to $600 per vehicle, Farley said.
Terrifically bad news for legacy TV, if true. It would certainly blow a hole in the NFL's budget.
He thinks most manufacturers will go LFP, and increasing scale of LFP cell production plus the low material cost will crater the price of the battery pack. He also wants to go to direct online sales, and cut advertising:
>Ford, like Tesla, may not have to buy advertising to sell EVs, which now amounts to $500 to $600 per vehicle, Farley said.
Terrifically bad news for legacy TV, if true. It would certainly blow a hole in the NFL's budget.
Now that's good news. EVs ought to be simpler, but it takes a major redesign to achieve the simplicity. Which Ford is doing.
Like BYD' CEO, Ford top management sees lithium iron phosphate as the battery technology for low end vehicles. It's both cheaper and far less prone to battery fires. That chemistry does not have the thermal runaway problem.
Like BYD' CEO, Ford top management sees lithium iron phosphate as the battery technology for low end vehicles. It's both cheaper and far less prone to battery fires. That chemistry does not have the thermal runaway problem.
I think Chinese (and other) pure EV brands will probably replace the existing car manufacturers.
However, charging what the market will bear in a tight market is not the thing that will doom them. Artificially limiting their production of EVs, through internal strife or plain bad planning will hurt them though.
However, charging what the market will bear in a tight market is not the thing that will doom them. Artificially limiting their production of EVs, through internal strife or plain bad planning will hurt them though.
Chinese EVs will be taxed into oblivion. No country will let their manufacturing fail.
Insufficient capacity is all that blocks EV market share from hitting 60-70% in an instant (rest will be diehard conservatives). So we will see it being the case for the next 10 years or so, naturally.
Grid capacity is what blocks EV market share and will continue to be the blocker for the foreseeable future.
A 2 person apartment where I live will consume ~400kWh of power in a typical month. Charging a 100kWh battery twice a month per person would double the power usage. We don't have the power generation, nor power delivery for that, nor will we have it for some time.
A 2 person apartment where I live will consume ~400kWh of power in a typical month. Charging a 100kWh battery twice a month per person would double the power usage. We don't have the power generation, nor power delivery for that, nor will we have it for some time.
Not really, a car serves for ~15 years, so even 100% EV market share will mean only 6% or so annual replacement rate. Plenty of time for grid to adapt.
According to a random source (American Public Power Association), the US got about 30GW of new power from 2014 to 2021, and is projected to build another 41GW in 2022. The generation as of March 2022 was 1250GW, so about 2-3% increase per year. You'd have to add another 8.5% (12 year car replacement age, and it doubles consumption, so you need to double the total production in 12 years) on top of that and you'd have to start now, not in a couple years, when the problem becomes apparent.
Edit: Average car age is < 12 in the US, not 15.
Edit: Average car age is < 12 in the US, not 15.
Average age != average service life though, so what you are essentially saying is: Service life is something above 20 years[1]
The main thing about the electricity grid isn't so much that we need new capacity (that we actually have the production capacity to deal with), but that it changes the load distribution of the grid. And we have no (effective) way to communicate the load condition. If we could dynamically increase and decrease the consumption, then we could deal with building less excess capacity.
At least here in Germany, if you look outside you'll see nearly every new house having a complete array of solar panels and all of the currently added installations come with the option to redirect the power into local storage. This isn't widely deployed yet as battery capacity is still too expensive, but within the next couple of years this will be fixed and all of these buildings will "disappear" from the electric grid. They will (largely [2]) feed themselves and all remaining demand will be time-insensitive due to the available local storage. These houses (and the associated EVs) will not put additional strain on the grid. And, if we manage to sort out the regulatory things and implement a reasonable user-interface, they may even take strain from the grid.
This is a rather long story for saying this: Don't equate "capacity added" with "production increase" with "actual amount of electric energy generated and consumed". The first to numbers differ by a load factor and the last one will (increasingly) diverge, due to net-metering and friends.
[1] assuming that all cars large the same time and none get "lost" by being in accidents or exported you'd get to 24 years if the half-life is 12, in practice I would assume a certain heavy-tailness and a peak somewhere around 20
[2] most houses will be _heavily_ oversupplied on a year-long basis, but will be consumers to the grid for shorter periods.
The main thing about the electricity grid isn't so much that we need new capacity (that we actually have the production capacity to deal with), but that it changes the load distribution of the grid. And we have no (effective) way to communicate the load condition. If we could dynamically increase and decrease the consumption, then we could deal with building less excess capacity.
At least here in Germany, if you look outside you'll see nearly every new house having a complete array of solar panels and all of the currently added installations come with the option to redirect the power into local storage. This isn't widely deployed yet as battery capacity is still too expensive, but within the next couple of years this will be fixed and all of these buildings will "disappear" from the electric grid. They will (largely [2]) feed themselves and all remaining demand will be time-insensitive due to the available local storage. These houses (and the associated EVs) will not put additional strain on the grid. And, if we manage to sort out the regulatory things and implement a reasonable user-interface, they may even take strain from the grid.
This is a rather long story for saying this: Don't equate "capacity added" with "production increase" with "actual amount of electric energy generated and consumed". The first to numbers differ by a load factor and the last one will (increasingly) diverge, due to net-metering and friends.
[1] assuming that all cars large the same time and none get "lost" by being in accidents or exported you'd get to 24 years if the half-life is 12, in practice I would assume a certain heavy-tailness and a peak somewhere around 20
[2] most houses will be _heavily_ oversupplied on a year-long basis, but will be consumers to the grid for shorter periods.
10% of your EV cost, added to your roof solves this at least by 50% of the year.
Some places let you invest in solar farm that you then use power at all your abodes and at municipal chargers.
FWIW we should have waaay more incentives towards adding rooftop solar + batteries than towards EVs.
Some places let you invest in solar farm that you then use power at all your abodes and at municipal chargers.
FWIW we should have waaay more incentives towards adding rooftop solar + batteries than towards EVs.
I've seen Rav4 Primes selling for $20k over the $50k premium MSRP. They're not in a better place than regular EVs.
Listed or selling? Plenty of dealers are trying to get well over MSRP but only an idiot would pay that much for a RAV4 Prime.
Except you can get them for MSRP at many dealers, for example: Sunnyvale Toyota.
My Bolt is coming to the end of the lease soon. We're dropping back to a single ICE vehicle because we don't drive that much. I considered:
- keep the Bolt and buy it for $24k + tax. Car is barely worth that and the subsidized chargers I've been using at work are starting to fill up, causing hassles. Current CA grid insufficiency is also not encouraging.
- get a new BEV or PHEV. I don't drive enough to make either of these make economic sense. I can pick up a newer, pre-owned ICE vehicle and save a ton over non-ICE and never spend anywhere close to the difference on gas.
EV drivetrains are fun and I love them but I can't justify the luxury at this point.
- keep the Bolt and buy it for $24k + tax. Car is barely worth that and the subsidized chargers I've been using at work are starting to fill up, causing hassles. Current CA grid insufficiency is also not encouraging.
- get a new BEV or PHEV. I don't drive enough to make either of these make economic sense. I can pick up a newer, pre-owned ICE vehicle and save a ton over non-ICE and never spend anywhere close to the difference on gas.
EV drivetrains are fun and I love them but I can't justify the luxury at this point.
I suspect you might have been misinformed, as the Mach-E is actually one of the few current vehicles[1] that will be able to keep the $7500 tax credit for the rest of the year, before the new rules around sourcing requirements and income limits kick in on Jan 1st.
[1]: https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/federal-ev-tax-credits-en...
[1]: https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/federal-ev-tax-credits-en...
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I love the idea of an EV, but I hate how unfriendly they are towards self-repair and I don't want my car connected to the internet.
Also an EV has more battery capacity than my house so it'd be pretty hard to charge a car in the winter when I can barely keep my house batteries running my house.
Also an EV has more battery capacity than my house so it'd be pretty hard to charge a car in the winter when I can barely keep my house batteries running my house.
I just completed a ~1600km drive back from visiting family. Half way through the outbound trip, in the middle of the mountains, I had to make a 300km detour due to a massive accident (two semi trucks head-on closed a mountain highway for more than a day). The detour was through a valley with no cellphone coverage for 150+km. At a rest stop I met a tesla driver in a panic. Without internet he was unable to figure out whether he should continue, turn around, or wait out the accident. That was the one and only electric vehicle I saw that day. There are some parts of this planet where it it very hard to envision mass EV adoption.
(Here is a link if anyone wants to confirm my story, but be warned. You cannot unread this. It was a horrible accident.) https://www.aldergrovestar.com/news/fatal-semi-truck-collisi...
(Here is a link if anyone wants to confirm my story, but be warned. You cannot unread this. It was a horrible accident.) https://www.aldergrovestar.com/news/fatal-semi-truck-collisi...
Europeans don't understand how sparse and unpopulated the United States is .
Even if they visit they visit the densely populated areas not realizing that most Americans regularly drive across areas where you may not see anyone for miles around. It's not that uncommon an occurrence. Most Americans will do something like this a few times a year. Many do it daily...
Canadians too
Even if they visit they visit the densely populated areas not realizing that most Americans regularly drive across areas where you may not see anyone for miles around. It's not that uncommon an occurrence. Most Americans will do something like this a few times a year. Many do it daily...
Canadians too
To be fair, I'd wager that the vast majority of Americans live, work and travel within 100km of a gas station at all times. That number could be pushed even higher if you include distance from any ordinary electrical power outlet that could theoretically be used to charge an EV. It's true that parts of the Canada and the US are very sparsely populated, but EV adoption could happen (and is happening) across much of the region anyway because realistically it's still only a few people who regularly spend their lives hours away from any kind of service whatsoever.
Friend of mine lives in a small town. There is a gas station. The guy that runs it is an asshole and it's expensive either way. The cheap gas station is 75 miles away in town with the grocery and big box stores. When you consider the whole cycle of gas up in town. Drive home, hope you have enough gas next week to get back to town. An EV would be less hassle and stress.
Good point. EV can be more convenient, and plug-in hybrid gives you a choice you might not have had, otherwise.
No, the problem is many people cannot think within the new reality. Even in the US there are power lines almost everywhere (https://hifld-geoplatform.opendata.arcgis.com/datasets/geopl...), so nothing prevents from installing chargers every 10-20 miles. It's not like a gas station!
Even then, I think most Americans overestimate their range needs. A stop every two hours is recommended for every driver to keep attention at safe levels, and even then there are bio breaks and the occasional coffee or drink or lunch.
Even then, I think most Americans overestimate their range needs. A stop every two hours is recommended for every driver to keep attention at safe levels, and even then there are bio breaks and the occasional coffee or drink or lunch.
> most Americans regularly drive across areas where you may not see anyone for miles around
83% of Americans live in urban areas. Why would they "regularly drive across areas where [they] may not see anyone for miles around"...?
Are you sure you're not just extrapolating from your own experience?
83% of Americans live in urban areas. Why would they "regularly drive across areas where [they] may not see anyone for miles around"...?
Are you sure you're not just extrapolating from your own experience?
Road trips between cities or drives in the countryside
Average trip lengths in the US are only slightly longer than in the EU. Americans like to emphasize the vast emptiness of their country, but in reality a large fraction of the trips could even be done on a bicycle. I don't think that the requirement to plop down a couple of fast chargers in remote areas should stop us from replacing almost all fossil fuel cars with EVs (or, better, public transport and bicycles).
Your facts are inconvenient and will probably just be dismissed sadly.
EVs need to win by being better without more risk, not by trying to ban people currently using ICEs.
EVs need to win by being better without more risk, not by trying to ban people currently using ICEs.
More inconvenient facts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Fort_McMurray_wildfire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E_OLgC4nV0
88,000 people in perhaps 50,000 vehicles all taking the ONE road out of town. Some kind companies setup fuel trucks by the roadside to top up tanks. Gas delivery can be scaled up and even made portable in an emergency. Had those 50,000 vehicles all been EVs, tens of thousands of people would have been stuck beside the road hoping the fire picked a different direction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Fort_McMurray_wildfire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E_OLgC4nV0
88,000 people in perhaps 50,000 vehicles all taking the ONE road out of town. Some kind companies setup fuel trucks by the roadside to top up tanks. Gas delivery can be scaled up and even made portable in an emergency. Had those 50,000 vehicles all been EVs, tens of thousands of people would have been stuck beside the road hoping the fire picked a different direction.
88,000 people in perhaps 50,000 vehicles all taking the ONE road out of town.
That's an interesting point.
We see this a couple of times a year in the United States — tens, or even hundreds of thousands of people evacuating because of an approaching hurricane.
It takes hours and hours and hours to go not very far. And when you finally get someplace with an open hotel room, it's hundreds of miles away.
Although I believe they are close, I'm not sure EVs are ready for that challenge yet. Especially since a gas station half-way to safety can fill up hundreds of cars faster than a dozen EVs can charge.
Can more chargers solve this problem? Better chargers? Both? Something else?
That's an interesting point.
We see this a couple of times a year in the United States — tens, or even hundreds of thousands of people evacuating because of an approaching hurricane.
It takes hours and hours and hours to go not very far. And when you finally get someplace with an open hotel room, it's hundreds of miles away.
Although I believe they are close, I'm not sure EVs are ready for that challenge yet. Especially since a gas station half-way to safety can fill up hundreds of cars faster than a dozen EVs can charge.
Can more chargers solve this problem? Better chargers? Both? Something else?
> Especially since a gas station half-way to safety can fill up hundreds of cars faster than a dozen EVs can charge.
Logistics. A petrol station can fill up any single isolated car or truck really fast, but when the local supply is gone, it can only be returned via a delivery truck (unless I'm very wrong and they have pipes direct to refineries?)
An electric charger can recharge one car battery much slower than a tank can be refilled, but the grid can be approximated as "not running out" over that kind of timescale.
I'm not sure which would be better for mass evacuations in practice, especially given traffic jams are where EVs excel.
Logistics. A petrol station can fill up any single isolated car or truck really fast, but when the local supply is gone, it can only be returned via a delivery truck (unless I'm very wrong and they have pipes direct to refineries?)
An electric charger can recharge one car battery much slower than a tank can be refilled, but the grid can be approximated as "not running out" over that kind of timescale.
I'm not sure which would be better for mass evacuations in practice, especially given traffic jams are where EVs excel.
Even cars are barely up to the challenge in that case.
At a minimum we need some sort of fast charger that can add 50+ miles in 5 minutes. Granted, in a gas car that's a full tank usually, but let's be reasonable about what we can expect in the near-ish future.
Having wireless tech that can charge that fast would be even better. Maybe get on a little conveyer belt similar to an automated carwash and by the time you exit, you have 50 more miles than before. Hell, imagine these things running parallel to a road like a pit lane on a racetrack. Move on the track for 5 minutes, then they turn around and grab cars going the opposite direction.
Seems pretty inefficient and probably a logistical nightmare, but it would be cool to see it work!
Having wireless tech that can charge that fast would be even better. Maybe get on a little conveyer belt similar to an automated carwash and by the time you exit, you have 50 more miles than before. Hell, imagine these things running parallel to a road like a pit lane on a racetrack. Move on the track for 5 minutes, then they turn around and grab cars going the opposite direction.
Seems pretty inefficient and probably a logistical nightmare, but it would be cool to see it work!
We can already do more than 50 miles of range in 5 minutes. For example a Tesla Model Y is rated at about 0.234 kWh/mile, round up to 0.25 kWh/mile. To get 50 miles of range you need 12.5 kWh, in order to get that in 5 minutes you need a charging speed of 150 kW. Tesla V2 superchargers already do 150 kW and V3 does 250 kW, which would only take 3 minutes to get 50 miles of range. Of course the actual charging curve depends on your battery state of charge but 50 miles in 5 minutes is very achievable in most cases, at least with Tesla.
Now doing this in a portable way is the difficult part. There are a few trucks now that can do 7-10 kW output to charge cars, but that's only about 30-40 miles of range per hour, which is still quite slow. But it might be enough to top you up for 15-20 mins to get you 10-15 miles down the road to a charger. I imagine this will improve though quite a bit as more EVs are adopted. I think if we can get to 50 kW chargers from service vehicles that's good enough. On a 50 kW charger 15 minutes of charging will give you 50 miles of range on a Tesla, and on less efficient cars it will still give you at 30+ miles.
Now doing this in a portable way is the difficult part. There are a few trucks now that can do 7-10 kW output to charge cars, but that's only about 30-40 miles of range per hour, which is still quite slow. But it might be enough to top you up for 15-20 mins to get you 10-15 miles down the road to a charger. I imagine this will improve though quite a bit as more EVs are adopted. I think if we can get to 50 kW chargers from service vehicles that's good enough. On a 50 kW charger 15 minutes of charging will give you 50 miles of range on a Tesla, and on less efficient cars it will still give you at 30+ miles.
You can do a lot better than that; just electrify the roads so that cars can recharge while travelling at highway speeds.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds-f...
There's basically three options: overhead lines, which are cheap but kind of ugly and don't really work for passenger cars (they'd need a really tall pantograph to reach as high as a truck), rails embedded in the road surface which can be used by cars and trucks but are more expensive than overhead lines, and wireless charging which is much more expensive than rails and the amount of power you can reasonably transfer is pretty limited.
I'm in favor of the rail approach, like they're testing in Sweden. If some billionaire with money burning a hole in your pocket is reading this, might I suggest buying a stretch of land parallel to a busy highway and constructing a parallel road with rail-style charging, and establish an in-motion charging standard. Let people charge for free and see what comes of it.
In the long run I hope all the major highways get electrified this way. It's disappointing that Congress isn't already working on this.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds-f...
There's basically three options: overhead lines, which are cheap but kind of ugly and don't really work for passenger cars (they'd need a really tall pantograph to reach as high as a truck), rails embedded in the road surface which can be used by cars and trucks but are more expensive than overhead lines, and wireless charging which is much more expensive than rails and the amount of power you can reasonably transfer is pretty limited.
I'm in favor of the rail approach, like they're testing in Sweden. If some billionaire with money burning a hole in your pocket is reading this, might I suggest buying a stretch of land parallel to a busy highway and constructing a parallel road with rail-style charging, and establish an in-motion charging standard. Let people charge for free and see what comes of it.
In the long run I hope all the major highways get electrified this way. It's disappointing that Congress isn't already working on this.
We already have those fast chargers. The average EV gets 3-4 miles/kwh. 50 miles would be about 15 kwh. To deliver 15kwh in 5 minutes, you'd need 180kw charging. The fastest widely available chargers currently go up to 350kw. Kia EV6/Hyundai Ioniq 5 charge from 10-80% (>200 miles) in 18 minutes (due to battery limitations).
Something else to consider is that EVs can remain idle in traffic without consuming much battery. They're not constantly consuming fuel like most ICE vehicles.
But if you're fleeing a hurricane, chances are you have the air conditioner on. It's generally hot and humid. You. Any have the windows open because of the rain, but you need the AC to keep the windshield clear. How does that affect battery use in an EV?
Tesla has "Camp Mode" which can regulate the temperature for nearly two days on a full charge.
I don't have a Tesla, but maybe someone here does and can chime in.
I don't have a Tesla, but maybe someone here does and can chime in.
You can idle a ICE car for maybe 16 hours easily with a half-tank, although this varies a lot [1]. With rationing your fuel, running for 10-30 minutes for every hour, you can maintain survivable temperature for at least double that (32 hours on half tank) to perhaps 96 hours, or 4 days. Double that for a full tank of gas.
If you want EVs to take over, get feature parity with the current technology.
[1] https://www.autotrader.ca/editorial/20190201/how-long-can-yo...
If you want EVs to take over, get feature parity with the current technology.
[1] https://www.autotrader.ca/editorial/20190201/how-long-can-yo...
Vehicle-to-vehicle charging is starting to be a thing, and there's always the option of using another vehicle to tow you. (You could even use regenerative braking on the towed car to recharge the battery.)
Realistically, that's an extreme case and some ICE vehicles might break down too for whatever reason. In that situation if there's no other option you'd probably just ditch your car and get a ride from someone else.
Realistically, that's an extreme case and some ICE vehicles might break down too for whatever reason. In that situation if there's no other option you'd probably just ditch your car and get a ride from someone else.
An EV makes a great second car in Canada but the long distances and cold weather are problematic for current EV technology. Hopefully that improves relatively soon.
I think the solution for batteries in cold weather is to insulate the pack and heat the battery "coolant". Almost all modern EVs use liquid cooling of some kind. (Nissan Leaves are the exception; I don't know if they've added that in newer versions, but it's why Leaf battery packs were notorious for wearing out quickly.)
I don't know if battery heaters are a common feature on current EVs. I'd think it would be particularly useful for LFP cells, which can be damaged if you try to charge them when they're below freezing. They can be discharged safely (if not efficiently) at much lower temperatures, which means you could "bootstrap" the car in cold weather by using the battery to heat itself until it gets warm enough to charge (without which you can't use regenerative braking).
It wouldn't be that far-fetched to imagine a battery cell with a built-in heating element (e.g. an internal 1 ohm resistor across the battery terminals) that, when activated, keeps the cell at at least room temperature and shuts off when the battery gets up to temperature. Normally you'd only activate the heater when charging or driving.
I don't know if battery heaters are a common feature on current EVs. I'd think it would be particularly useful for LFP cells, which can be damaged if you try to charge them when they're below freezing. They can be discharged safely (if not efficiently) at much lower temperatures, which means you could "bootstrap" the car in cold weather by using the battery to heat itself until it gets warm enough to charge (without which you can't use regenerative braking).
It wouldn't be that far-fetched to imagine a battery cell with a built-in heating element (e.g. an internal 1 ohm resistor across the battery terminals) that, when activated, keeps the cell at at least room temperature and shuts off when the battery gets up to temperature. Normally you'd only activate the heater when charging or driving.
Resistive heating using a battery offends my sensibilities. It takes beautiful low entropy energy and irreversibly converts it high entropy heat.
I can sympathize with that, but if the choice is between, say, using 1% of the battery capacity to heat the cell versus losing 25% of the capacity because they just don't work efficiently in the cold, going with the 1st option seems like the right move.
Although maybe that's not right... if a large amount of energy is "lost" when the battery is too cold, that energy has to go somewhere. If it ends up as heat anyways, maybe it's really functionally equivalent to having a heating element in the cell. In which case the solution is probably just to insulate the batteries better.
Although maybe that's not right... if a large amount of energy is "lost" when the battery is too cold, that energy has to go somewhere. If it ends up as heat anyways, maybe it's really functionally equivalent to having a heating element in the cell. In which case the solution is probably just to insulate the batteries better.
LoL. Don't worry. Global warming will deal with the low temperatures.
Toronto climate, average low, January: −6.7 °C (19.9 °F)
Temperature change needed for complete loss of Greenland ice sheet: between 1 and 4 °C. (That's a change by, not a change to).
Effect of complete loss of Greenland ice sheet: 7.2 meter sea level rise.
Temperature change needed for complete loss of Greenland ice sheet: between 1 and 4 °C. (That's a change by, not a change to).
Effect of complete loss of Greenland ice sheet: 7.2 meter sea level rise.
Torono isnt really typical. It is southern canada, and a bit of a heat island. Fort Mcmurray (that had to evac a few years ago) average january low: -22.5c. Places like that have almost 90c temperature swings from low to high in a given year (-50 to +35).
The Toronto region contains about 25% of the Canadian population, which is sufficient for my point.
Your attempt at nit picking, if it were valid, would actually makes it much worse: a temperature increase sufficient to turn "-22c" into "we don't need to worry about cold batteries" requires close to double the difference between today and the highest estimated average global temperature ever in the biological history of the planet, and that temperature happened before trees had evolved.
For example, naïvely adding 22 C (22.5 says Wiki) to the average so that the coldest was no longer below freezing, your Fort McMurray would have a new July average high of 46.2 C, which is above the current average of Death Valley 10 months of the year and pretty close the other two.
Your attempt at nit picking, if it were valid, would actually makes it much worse: a temperature increase sufficient to turn "-22c" into "we don't need to worry about cold batteries" requires close to double the difference between today and the highest estimated average global temperature ever in the biological history of the planet, and that temperature happened before trees had evolved.
For example, naïvely adding 22 C (22.5 says Wiki) to the average so that the coldest was no longer below freezing, your Fort McMurray would have a new July average high of 46.2 C, which is above the current average of Death Valley 10 months of the year and pretty close the other two.
Some kind companies can probably also set up generators to top up batteries.
It seems like cars are the problem here though?
If people want to live in remote areas and pollute a ton, that's just fine as long as they pay to clean up the mess they make for everyone else. Direct carbon capture from the air is about $500/ton right now, which is only about $5/gallon of gas.
If people want to live in remote areas and pollute a ton, that's just fine as long as they pay to clean up the mess they make for everyone else. Direct carbon capture from the air is about $500/ton right now, which is only about $5/gallon of gas.
>> If people want to live in remote areas and pollute a ton
Well... if you want lumber, minerals, metals, petrochemicals and food, then you too will need people living "in remote areas".
Well... if you want lumber, minerals, metals, petrochemicals and food, then you too will need people living "in remote areas".
Seems fine as long as they pay to clean up their mess, which means that their costs will be higher which they pass on.
The next time I see a farmer I'll pass along that it is "fine" that he continue growing the food people eat. He will appreciate having permission so to do.
I don't think you understand what I was saying "fine" too.
But people need to pay for the damage they inflict on the world. Nobody is so "special" or snowflake that they get exempted. Farmers are adults, they can be treated like any other adult in our society.
But people need to pay for the damage they inflict on the world. Nobody is so "special" or snowflake that they get exempted. Farmers are adults, they can be treated like any other adult in our society.
It seems that we are redefining things such that the only way to cause "damage" to the world is via carbon emissions (humans are very good at focusing on one metric to the exclusion of all others). Is there any "damage" done in having greater numbers of the world's poor die of starvation since we've reduced agricultural output in our quest to reduce carbon emissions? Perhaps we can dabble in fertilizer reduction after we've exhausted carbon capture from coal fired electricity plants (particularly in China and the US who are the largest emitters and still use a lot of coal) or at least converted those to natural gas. Messing with agriculture, particularly right now with the current geopolitical situation is very stupid.
For that to work we'd need both a carbon tax (or something equivalent) and a heavy tariff on goods that are imported from countries without such a tax. As long as both of those things can be enacted at once, I'm in favor.
The point is that the farmer and miner become the saints doing penance on our behalf - we all benefit from the work they do, then insist that they handle all the costs of the negative externalities their work produces.
Sure, I suppose that could be priced into what they charge for their products. That may be a nontrivial challenge to work out, though, and it's possible they'll no longer be able to make a sustainable product after doing so.
Life is complicated and easy answers are often wrong.
Sure, I suppose that could be priced into what they charge for their products. That may be a nontrivial challenge to work out, though, and it's possible they'll no longer be able to make a sustainable product after doing so.
Life is complicated and easy answers are often wrong.
> The point is that the farmer and miner become the saints doing penance on our behalf - we all benefit from the work they do
Seems more like this kind of take is an attempt to canonize them.
They're economic actors. Their work is very important, but that's why they, you know, take money in exchange for their output.
Excusing externalities is how we get corporate structures where officers and shareholders are richly rewarded and tax payers get to pay for (and often live in) the SuperFund site after the company leaves.
Seems more like this kind of take is an attempt to canonize them.
They're economic actors. Their work is very important, but that's why they, you know, take money in exchange for their output.
Excusing externalities is how we get corporate structures where officers and shareholders are richly rewarded and tax payers get to pay for (and often live in) the SuperFund site after the company leaves.
There are better optimisations for emissions than chasing farmers and miners.
Such as?
I'm generally anti-carbon tax because it's the solution to the problem that is obvious, simple, and wrong. But when there are no other solutions, charging for cleanup is the way to go.
Farmers and miners pay for their costs. They can continue to do so and pass their costs on. Some farmers, at least in the US, we massively subsidize to a ridiculous extent in a make-work program for massive amounts of soy and corn. But this is an economic choice that is relatively recent in the history of the US, and we can decide at any moment to improve the efficiency of the economy by making externalized costs internal.
I'm generally anti-carbon tax because it's the solution to the problem that is obvious, simple, and wrong. But when there are no other solutions, charging for cleanup is the way to go.
Farmers and miners pay for their costs. They can continue to do so and pass their costs on. Some farmers, at least in the US, we massively subsidize to a ridiculous extent in a make-work program for massive amounts of soy and corn. But this is an economic choice that is relatively recent in the history of the US, and we can decide at any moment to improve the efficiency of the economy by making externalized costs internal.
Why is a carbon tax wrong? It seems very similar in principle to your proposal?
I think a tax on certain sectors can work fine. Especially those sectors with no other options, and that must simply pay to extract the CO2 from the atmosphere that they put into it. However, an economy-wide tax ignores the differing amounts of technological development difficulty, access to capital, and political influence that varies so widely between sectors.
So a carbon tax on electricity generation sources works ok to incentivize a switch and internalize the externalities, but it's pretty equivalent to the general ITC/PTC subsidies that have recently been passed, with the exception that they are sector specific.
An economy wide carbon tax does almost nothing to incentivize decarbonization of steel or concrete, as the tech isn't there, nobody has spare money to invest in a solution, and the tax wouldn't necessarily increase the price of end products much. They need very specific industrial policy in these sectors to develop alternatives and put them into production.
Finally a carbon tax creates an entirely unified political coalition, across many sectors of the economy, to oppose the tax. So setting the tax at a level that is right to incentivize change is guaranteed to be nearly impossible, because od the breadth and political strength of the opposition to it. Specific carrots and sticks for each sector are what can drive real change in each sector.
If it was 1980, I'd be supporting a carbon tax. But we need to move far more quickly now to change our economic production systems than a carbon tax could ever conceivably achieve.
So a carbon tax on electricity generation sources works ok to incentivize a switch and internalize the externalities, but it's pretty equivalent to the general ITC/PTC subsidies that have recently been passed, with the exception that they are sector specific.
An economy wide carbon tax does almost nothing to incentivize decarbonization of steel or concrete, as the tech isn't there, nobody has spare money to invest in a solution, and the tax wouldn't necessarily increase the price of end products much. They need very specific industrial policy in these sectors to develop alternatives and put them into production.
Finally a carbon tax creates an entirely unified political coalition, across many sectors of the economy, to oppose the tax. So setting the tax at a level that is right to incentivize change is guaranteed to be nearly impossible, because od the breadth and political strength of the opposition to it. Specific carrots and sticks for each sector are what can drive real change in each sector.
If it was 1980, I'd be supporting a carbon tax. But we need to move far more quickly now to change our economic production systems than a carbon tax could ever conceivably achieve.
I think a blanket carbon tax at least creates a situation where everyone is paying , in some way, for the externalities they're causing. If some industries don't want to decarbonize because the tax is rounding error to them, then maybe you'd need additional rules or regulations, or maybe we need public investment in some new technology.
I can't think of a case where exempting some group from a carbon tax would be good policy. There is a pretty good argument though that a carbon tax would be regressive, and probably should be compensated for in some way so that poor people don't come out worse off, such as by reducing income tax in the lower brackets.
I think the hardest sector to decarbonize is going to be the military (with the exception of some small percentage of navy ships that are nuclear powered). I could see plug-in hybrid army vehicles eventually being a thing, though. Being able to run off of either diesel or electricity provides a lot of logistical flexibility. You can save the petroleum for when you really need to move long distances.
I can't think of a case where exempting some group from a carbon tax would be good policy. There is a pretty good argument though that a carbon tax would be regressive, and probably should be compensated for in some way so that poor people don't come out worse off, such as by reducing income tax in the lower brackets.
I think the hardest sector to decarbonize is going to be the military (with the exception of some small percentage of navy ships that are nuclear powered). I could see plug-in hybrid army vehicles eventually being a thing, though. Being able to run off of either diesel or electricity provides a lot of logistical flexibility. You can save the petroleum for when you really need to move long distances.
If people want to live in remote areas
This is an easily solved problem. Just stop eating. Once you stop eating, then we don't have to have farmers and their remotely-located support communities growing food for you.
For bonus points, stop using computers. Electronics are made up of all kinds of metals that are mined in remote locations. So, stop using electricity at all, if you're really concerned about this.
And while you're at it, give up toilet paper. It comes from trees that are waaaay out in the forest. If you stop wiping, then we don't have to truck trees to paper mills to make toilet paper for people in the city to use.
Do your part.
This is an easily solved problem. Just stop eating. Once you stop eating, then we don't have to have farmers and their remotely-located support communities growing food for you.
For bonus points, stop using computers. Electronics are made up of all kinds of metals that are mined in remote locations. So, stop using electricity at all, if you're really concerned about this.
And while you're at it, give up toilet paper. It comes from trees that are waaaay out in the forest. If you stop wiping, then we don't have to truck trees to paper mills to make toilet paper for people in the city to use.
Do your part.
Lot of strawmans here.
The OP suggesting rural living is entirely to blame is a strawman and absurd, and was presented with no evidence that removing all rural areas would fix any problem.
88,000 people in a town isn't rural living.
https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/rural-economy-population/rur...
Sometimes population density is the defining concern,
in other cases it is geographic isolation. Small population
size typically characterizes a rural place, but how small is
rural? Population thresholds used to differentiate rural and
urban communities range from 2,500 up to 50,000, depending on
the definition.
When gas cars were first around, people carried extra gas around with them. Eventually we built gas stations, but somehow cars still got a toehold even without those gas stations pre-existing.
There are very very very few places without electricity in the world.
Are there some places where emergency conditions make travel inconvenient or uncertain? Sure, but these rare situations are narrowing daily.
If that was the only Tesla you saw that day, there's a good reason for it. Fortunately those sorts of rare areas have nearly zero population, and account for nearly zero of the miles we need to switch from gas to EVs, so if they stay gasoline powered for a few more years, it's not a big obstacle to overcome.
There are very very very few places without electricity in the world.
Are there some places where emergency conditions make travel inconvenient or uncertain? Sure, but these rare situations are narrowing daily.
If that was the only Tesla you saw that day, there's a good reason for it. Fortunately those sorts of rare areas have nearly zero population, and account for nearly zero of the miles we need to switch from gas to EVs, so if they stay gasoline powered for a few more years, it's not a big obstacle to overcome.
>> There are very very very few places without electricity in the world.
Today. Right now. This is happening. Not Africa or Antarctica. In Canada. In a national park during a busy long weekend.
https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/be-prepared-officials-warn-of-po...
" Should the situation worsen, Richard Ireland, Jasper's mayor, recommended residents and visitors to the park ensure their essential electric devices remain fully charged and that their vehicles have full tanks of gas — since gas stations rely on electricity.
"We are already prepared to move to generated power for our own critical infrastructure, but that does not power lights in a residential home or your fridge or anything else," Ireland said. "So be prepared.""
Today. Right now. This is happening. Not Africa or Antarctica. In Canada. In a national park during a busy long weekend.
https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/be-prepared-officials-warn-of-po...
" Should the situation worsen, Richard Ireland, Jasper's mayor, recommended residents and visitors to the park ensure their essential electric devices remain fully charged and that their vehicles have full tanks of gas — since gas stations rely on electricity.
"We are already prepared to move to generated power for our own critical infrastructure, but that does not power lights in a residential home or your fridge or anything else," Ireland said. "So be prepared.""
> ensure their essential electric devices remain fully charged and that their vehicles have full tanks of gas — since gas stations rely on electricity.
They could also advise that "your EV batteries remain fully charged since EV charging stations rely on electricity."
They could also advise that "your EV batteries remain fully charged since EV charging stations rely on electricity."
[deleted]
Yes that is a story, but what is its relevance to what I am writing?
A huge number of people are about to lose electricity at precisely the time they most need it, should they need to flee in an EV. Lack of electricity is not a rare occurrence.
From the exact same quote, gas doesn't get pumped when the electricity goes out either:
> Jasper's mayor, recommended residents and visitors to the park ensure their essential electric devices remain fully charged and that their vehicles have full tanks of gas — since gas stations rely on electricity.
I think there's a huge logical gap that people have when it comes to EVs.
The number of places with functioning gas pumps but no electricity is a rounding error.
> Jasper's mayor, recommended residents and visitors to the park ensure their essential electric devices remain fully charged and that their vehicles have full tanks of gas — since gas stations rely on electricity.
I think there's a huge logical gap that people have when it comes to EVs.
The number of places with functioning gas pumps but no electricity is a rounding error.
I can keep a couple jerry cans of gas around and toss them in the back of a ICE to get 150-200% of my range, or share with people in need. You cannot do this with an ev.
Sure thing, but keeping 10 gallons of gasoline is more than a couple of cans. And even then, so what? How many people need to do that, or will ever do that, except for off-roading or obscure jobs?
This is a legitimate use, but for a vanishingly small number of people. Back when LED lights were first being pushed, we saw a lot of the same resistance to a new product that was superior for nearly every single use case, except a vanishingly small number of use cases. EVs are really similar. In 10 years we will look back on the resistance to EVs and find it a bit silly and overly fearful.
This is a legitimate use, but for a vanishingly small number of people. Back when LED lights were first being pushed, we saw a lot of the same resistance to a new product that was superior for nearly every single use case, except a vanishingly small number of use cases. EVs are really similar. In 10 years we will look back on the resistance to EVs and find it a bit silly and overly fearful.
20L can is half to a quarter of range, two 20L cans will fill the tank of a miata, half the tank of a tacoma.
For people in a city who never leave it? EVs are great. Everyone else not so much. Personally I think plug in hybrids are the future because they overcome this but seems everyone just wants to push pure evs.
For people in a city who never leave it? EVs are great. Everyone else not so much. Personally I think plug in hybrids are the future because they overcome this but seems everyone just wants to push pure evs.
EVs are great for anyone who hasn't had to haul around extra gas in cans to get to where they want to go. Which is easily 99% of the population.
LED lights burn out prematurely in over half the fixtures in my house because they are fully enclosed. The bulbs can’t take the heat. This is true even for bulbs that claim they are suitable for use in fully enclosed luminaires. I have switched back to compact fluorescents.
It seems to me that EV advocates aren’t very similar to what we see with LED bulbs. EV advocates refuse to even acknowledge that EVs are not for everyone. Instead they want to ban alternatives. At least I can still buy compact fluorescent bulbs.
It’s as if laptop computer advocates wanted to ban desktops. Surely the laptop is all anyone needs.
It seems to me that EV advocates aren’t very similar to what we see with LED bulbs. EV advocates refuse to even acknowledge that EVs are not for everyone. Instead they want to ban alternatives. At least I can still buy compact fluorescent bulbs.
It’s as if laptop computer advocates wanted to ban desktops. Surely the laptop is all anyone needs.
You say: "EV advocates refuse to even acknowledge that EVs are not for everyone."
But my comment was: "This is a legitimate use, but for a vanishingly small number of people."
But my comment was: "This is a legitimate use, but for a vanishingly small number of people."
Perhaps because you suggest that the areas OP is referring to have near zero population when clearly that is not the case.
That is not the sort of area I was referring to. This area is served both by electricity and gas stations. And the quote has a reminder that, just as with essential electric devices getting charged, such as an EV, people should keep a full tank of gas.
And I would note that it's far easier to keep a full charge when you do your charging at home than it is when you need to leave the house to prepare and fill up on gas.
And I would note that it's far easier to keep a full charge when you do your charging at home than it is when you need to leave the house to prepare and fill up on gas.
In the early years of aviation, Pan America used a huge fleet of sea planes. They did that because modern airports didn't exist yet, but ships were common and harbors provided the basic infrastructure they needed to operate.
We don't use sea planes much anymore, because aircraft now have their own dedicated airports.
I think of giant batteries on electric vehicles as being basically the same thing as a giant pontoon on an airplane: it's there because the infrastructure isn't good enough that we can leave it behind. In the case of EVs, I think what we need in the long run is electrified roads so that range becomes a non-issue for almost everyone, and we can use batteries that are half the size or less.
We don't use sea planes much anymore, because aircraft now have their own dedicated airports.
I think of giant batteries on electric vehicles as being basically the same thing as a giant pontoon on an airplane: it's there because the infrastructure isn't good enough that we can leave it behind. In the case of EVs, I think what we need in the long run is electrified roads so that range becomes a non-issue for almost everyone, and we can use batteries that are half the size or less.
> When gas cars were first around, people carried extra gas around with them.
There are still isolated places where this is useful. I've done it when offroading.
There are still isolated places where this is useful. I've done it when offroading.
This is routinely necessary in my area and line of work.
> There are very very very few places without electricity in the world.
In the first world. Billions live in places with no or unreliable electricity.
In the first world. Billions live in places with no or unreliable electricity.
And that will change as renewable energy and cheap storage make micro grids economically feasible, where transmission with centralized power generation is too expensive.
In these places, EVs will be far superior to gas vehicles because they will require less infrastructure and the EVs supplement the micro grid are an asset for it.
In these places, EVs will be far superior to gas vehicles because they will require less infrastructure and the EVs supplement the micro grid are an asset for it.
"Cheap storage" with the capacity for a week-long cloudy cold snap, epescially given how demanding EVs are, doesn't exist and will likely keep not existing for decades. So for now, if you want 24/7 electrity, your only option is a real large grid. Meanwhile gasoline cars just need a tank to store gas
I don't think you are talking about the same areas I'm talking about.
In areas where heating buildings interiors is a significant energy need, and has week long cold snaps, then there's extremely cheap storage in the form of therma storage, which combines very nicely with heat pumps, and it exists today. Bury insulated thermal sinks underground and a ton of summertime energy can be stored up seasonally.
However I'm not aware of any large populations of people that live in colder climates that do not yet have electricity and are looking to change their living standards in the coming decades.
In areas where heating buildings interiors is a significant energy need, and has week long cold snaps, then there's extremely cheap storage in the form of therma storage, which combines very nicely with heat pumps, and it exists today. Bury insulated thermal sinks underground and a ton of summertime energy can be stored up seasonally.
However I'm not aware of any large populations of people that live in colder climates that do not yet have electricity and are looking to change their living standards in the coming decades.
Plugin series hybrids are becoming popular here in Australia where distances and use cases like that are common. Same approach that diesel electric trains use for similar reasons. EV drivetrain with an ICE generator. Efficiency and drivability of the EV drivetrain, with robust fueling options. You may rarely need the petrol generator in daily commuting, but then you head interstate and have all the current infrastructure to work with.
I've been in situations in an ICE where I've been diverted and had no clue where the next gas station would be (not really uncommon in Nevada or California). Heck, I've been on an actual interstate through Kansas in the middle of the night and...I had trouble finding an open gas station for our car (bad planning on my part, I thought 40 miles of range was surely enough to find the next one, I never saw gas stations close at night before!).
> no clue where the next gas station would be (not really uncommon in Nevada or California)
When on longer road trips I always carry a portable tank of spare fuel just in case. Sure, I rarely need it, but it's been handy a few times.
This is out of California and nearby states where long stretches of emptiness are a regular occurrence. Back when I lived on the east coast I never did this as the population density is much higher.
When on longer road trips I always carry a portable tank of spare fuel just in case. Sure, I rarely need it, but it's been handy a few times.
This is out of California and nearby states where long stretches of emptiness are a regular occurrence. Back when I lived on the east coast I never did this as the population density is much higher.
Part of planning for very long road trips should be to carry a spare can of gas with you to account for incidents.
I never expected to run out of gas on an interstate. We aren't talking about a highway in the middle of nowhere Nevada, supposedly Kansas is populated with little towns everywhere (which seem to close their gas stations at night).
And ya, when you are at some place like Crater Lake National Park, you don't really think too deeply about how the next gas station might be 100 miles out.
If I was going into the Australian outback, preparations are necessary, but running out of gas due to poor planning or unexpected situations is at least as common as running out of battery due to similar poor planning (or unexpected situations).
And ya, when you are at some place like Crater Lake National Park, you don't really think too deeply about how the next gas station might be 100 miles out.
If I was going into the Australian outback, preparations are necessary, but running out of gas due to poor planning or unexpected situations is at least as common as running out of battery due to similar poor planning (or unexpected situations).
Running out of gas is an easy fix, go get a jerry can of petrol. What happens to an ev? Tow to the nearest charger?
Mobile charging is a possibility:
> Most gas-powered generators that your roadside assistance will come with provide 9.6 kilowatts and generate 240 volts. Inquire with your roadside assistance provider to know whether they offer a mobile charge. Often that not, they may be offering it.
Ya, they are coming with basically with a diesel generator that outputs 240 volts...which should give you 20 or so miles in 30 minutes?
Or towing (on a flatbed) to the nearest charger is an option if you can't bring power to the car.
> Most gas-powered generators that your roadside assistance will come with provide 9.6 kilowatts and generate 240 volts. Inquire with your roadside assistance provider to know whether they offer a mobile charge. Often that not, they may be offering it.
Ya, they are coming with basically with a diesel generator that outputs 240 volts...which should give you 20 or so miles in 30 minutes?
Or towing (on a flatbed) to the nearest charger is an option if you can't bring power to the car.
Heck of a lot more involved (and expensive) then getting a jerry can filled.
> Without internet he was unable to figure out whether he should continue, turn around, or wait out the accident.
I think that this is an interesting corner case, but I don’t think the solution decision tree is that complicated:
1. Every Tesla has comes with an adapter that plugs into a regular outlet. It’s very slow (maybe 3-5 miles an hour charge), but it’s enough to recharge anywhere that has electricity in an emergency. This is slow and may require an extended stay at a hotel (or sleeping in your car), but we are talking about a super rare emergency situation.
2. I would default to not taking a long detour in general in an ev unless I knew where I was going to charge. That would be like taking a detour on a back road in an isolated area on a fraction of a tank of gas without knowing how far the next gas station is or whether it would be open — just not wise.
3. If he was near a charging station in the direction he was going on the main road, I would lean towards just waiting it out. Tesla’s use very little charge when not moving. 12-24 hours would be fine (if boring).
4. If he was not near a charging station in the direction he was going, then I would recommend turning around and finding the nearest charger or find a place you can charge on a regular outlet — drastic situations call for drastic solutions.
I guess I can say that I feel sorry for EV owners who lack the ability to think logically and/or analytically, but these problems, while different than ICE problems, are not terribly difficult to figure out.
I think that I have heard of one challenging charging scenario in the US that is specific to EVs…
There is a wind corridor on some highway that spans from Texas to Colorado. Cars of any kind get reduced mileage by a lot if they are driving into heavy winds that are common on this road. Not a problem with ubiquitous gas stations, but I don’t think the charger network accommodated this wind factor as of last year, so people had to drive at unusually slow speeds in order to extend their range.
That said, I heard that Tesla was building an extra charging station or two on this route to address this issue, and it wouldn’t surprise me if other charging station operators did so as well. It’s just a super weird and rare driving and charging situation that is/was easily solved.
I think that this is an interesting corner case, but I don’t think the solution decision tree is that complicated:
1. Every Tesla has comes with an adapter that plugs into a regular outlet. It’s very slow (maybe 3-5 miles an hour charge), but it’s enough to recharge anywhere that has electricity in an emergency. This is slow and may require an extended stay at a hotel (or sleeping in your car), but we are talking about a super rare emergency situation.
2. I would default to not taking a long detour in general in an ev unless I knew where I was going to charge. That would be like taking a detour on a back road in an isolated area on a fraction of a tank of gas without knowing how far the next gas station is or whether it would be open — just not wise.
3. If he was near a charging station in the direction he was going on the main road, I would lean towards just waiting it out. Tesla’s use very little charge when not moving. 12-24 hours would be fine (if boring).
4. If he was not near a charging station in the direction he was going, then I would recommend turning around and finding the nearest charger or find a place you can charge on a regular outlet — drastic situations call for drastic solutions.
I guess I can say that I feel sorry for EV owners who lack the ability to think logically and/or analytically, but these problems, while different than ICE problems, are not terribly difficult to figure out.
I think that I have heard of one challenging charging scenario in the US that is specific to EVs…
There is a wind corridor on some highway that spans from Texas to Colorado. Cars of any kind get reduced mileage by a lot if they are driving into heavy winds that are common on this road. Not a problem with ubiquitous gas stations, but I don’t think the charger network accommodated this wind factor as of last year, so people had to drive at unusually slow speeds in order to extend their range.
That said, I heard that Tesla was building an extra charging station or two on this route to address this issue, and it wouldn’t surprise me if other charging station operators did so as well. It’s just a super weird and rare driving and charging situation that is/was easily solved.
> There are some parts of this planet where it it very hard to envision mass EV adoption.
A lot of EV's are already at 500km range. Within this decade we should see 1000km range. Add some charging infrastructure and we are gold. Just look at the chargers Tesla has built in California (and there is still a lot of potential to improve).
A lot of EV's are already at 500km range. Within this decade we should see 1000km range. Add some charging infrastructure and we are gold. Just look at the chargers Tesla has built in California (and there is still a lot of potential to improve).
No EV has 500 km range when you drive it in real world conditions. If you drive it with normal highway speed - 140-160 km/h you can barely get 250.
In real world conditions the highest range Model S can do 320 miles (515km) [1]
Also 140-160 km/h aren't normal highway speed. They are in fact illegal in almost all countries.
[1] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36302930/tesla-model-s-lo...
Also 140-160 km/h aren't normal highway speed. They are in fact illegal in almost all countries.
[1] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36302930/tesla-model-s-lo...
Who cares if they are legal if everyone drives at them. I was cruising in Turkey lately with 170 and was often overtaken with people at 200+.
Speed limits are just glorified toll boots made to extract revenue from people with powerful cars.
Speed limits are just glorified toll boots made to extract revenue from people with powerful cars.
In markets with significant EV adoption there's usually either section control on highways or a competent traffic police force.
Also manufacturers are moving away from providing 200km/h+ capable cars. Volvo is pioneering this citing safety concerns.
Also manufacturers are moving away from providing 200km/h+ capable cars. Volvo is pioneering this citing safety concerns.
Do you have a new EV? My 2015 Model S 70D has a nominal range of 330 km and as far as i can tell it does pretty close to that unless I am running at high speed (110 km/h or more) or doing a lot of hill climbing. So I'm pretty sure that a newer EV, especially a lighter one or one with a larger battery and lower power motor would have a longer range.
140 km/h and above is not a normal highway speed in any country except Germany and even there it is not really that common. I returned from the UK to Norway last week. It was about 26 hours of driving through France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, the amount of time I spent at more than 130 was just a couple of hours.
140 km/h and above is not a normal highway speed in any country except Germany and even there it is not really that common. I returned from the UK to Norway last week. It was about 26 hours of driving through France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, the amount of time I spent at more than 130 was just a couple of hours.
my vacation this year was 1500 km one way, at least 80% of which was done at 130km/h or more (both ways). i was one of very many doing a trip of this length judging by license plates at the destination.
So you were exceeding the speed limit almost all the way? My journey was a similar distance and only the German stretch had any roads with speed limit higher than 130 km/h. Perhaps next time I do it I should record the speed as I go. The average speed was probably about 60 km/h so the amount of driving above 130 must have been quite small, some of it was a lot faster than that though, just for fun on the autobahn.
And of course the vast bulk of traffic on the roads is very much slower. Also quite a lot of ICE cars are not built for sustained driving at high speeds anyway.
And of course the vast bulk of traffic on the roads is very much slower. Also quite a lot of ICE cars are not built for sustained driving at high speeds anyway.
And how many of those kilometers were in areas so remote that it's impossible to build a fast charger there?
zero, why does it matter?
Because I thought that we're discussing road trips through remote areas: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32719547
the post I replied to:
> It was about 26 hours of driving through France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, the amount of time I spent at more than 130 was just a couple of hours.
> It was about 26 hours of driving through France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, the amount of time I spent at more than 130 was just a couple of hours.
I'm my above story, speed limit was generally 100/110kph and involved constant hill climbing. It would have been a test for any Tesla. Lots of point-of-no-return driving where the links between chargers was more than 1/2 of total range, which is scary in avalanche/fire/flood country.
Poland has around 1200 km of motorways where the limit is 140 km/h.
Thanks, I misremembered it, I thought it was 130 km/h. But that still doesn't change the fact that most driving is at far lower speeds, even on the motorway.
> There are some parts of this planet where it it very hard to envision mass EV adoption.
Perhaps, but how are they going to adapt to significantly lower CO2 emission? Through drastically increased prices? Or just accept the 4C warming and hope the fires are after your lifetime?
Perhaps, but how are they going to adapt to significantly lower CO2 emission? Through drastically increased prices? Or just accept the 4C warming and hope the fires are after your lifetime?
Sounds like a need for an offline map of charging stations. If I were Tesla I'd want to include one in the regular updates?
> driving prized cattle from a show, some of which were 4h projects
That was worse than I thought it was going to be.
That was worse than I thought it was going to be.
Ya. The local authorities did a very good job in preventing anyone from taking pictures. I'm not for censorship, but those images do not need to be public knowledge imho.
[deleted]
What exactly did he need internet for?
To find the nearest charging station along the detour route. He was already down below 1/2 charge, meaning he couldn't go back the way he came.
I am surprised that that don't have an offline version for the maps. The location of the charge station does not change that often, operational status might, but few hours stale data should still be sufficient to navigate.
If you don't mind a super-aerodynamic lightweight three-wheeler, Aptera has a strong commitment to right-to-repair. They're making parts and manuals available to anyone.
https://aptera.us/right-to-repair-commitment-feat-rich-rebui...
https://cleantechnica.com/2021/11/19/a-recent-aptera-video-g...
They also get significantly more miles/kWh than most electrics, so the charging problem's easier.
https://aptera.us/right-to-repair-commitment-feat-rich-rebui...
https://cleantechnica.com/2021/11/19/a-recent-aptera-video-g...
They also get significantly more miles/kWh than most electrics, so the charging problem's easier.
I’m thinking the problem there isn’t repair, but that it looks like vapor ware. It looks quite a bit like an Elio which took peoples’ money, but never delivered a car.
They're by all accounts currently building out the factory to start (slowly) making cars towards the end of the year. It remains to be seen what quality the car will actually be, given the design constraints it's under and all the problems that come with a first-time carmaker, but it's probably not just vaporware.
biggest problem is finding good battery packs at scale. Maybe one day we can have a co-op gigafactory.
>> If you don't mind a super-aerodynamic lightweight three-wheeler
In other words: not a car. No crash protection. Three-wheeled "cars" are simply an excuse to avoid various safety rules. They are essentially enclosed motorcycles, to the extent that in some jurisdictions you may need a motorcycle license/helmet to drive them.
In other words: not a car. No crash protection. Three-wheeled "cars" are simply an excuse to avoid various safety rules. They are essentially enclosed motorcycles, to the extent that in some jurisdictions you may need a motorcycle license/helmet to drive them.
Maybe ok if everyone drove them, I'd seriously consider it for my sunny commute in Nevada and parking all day outside in the desert. Unfortunately, everyone else is driving a massively oversized pickup truck and I'd prefer not to be obliterated.
Yeah that's the only reason I haven't put in a preorder. They're making it as safe as they can but there's only so much you can do.
Back in the 90s I drove a '73 Beetle and a '74 Pinto, and I'm sure it's safer than those. Maybe Aptera's customers will be some of today's 20-somethings.
Back in the 90s I drove a '73 Beetle and a '74 Pinto, and I'm sure it's safer than those. Maybe Aptera's customers will be some of today's 20-somethings.
I would argue that whether you're driving a gas-powered BMW or an electric BMW, all car companies are motivated to add internet-driven features and metrics to future cars. Your car could be solar-powered and this would still be the case. The only way dis-incentives could confidently outweigh incentives would be if governments use laws & enforcement to destroy the value of tracking users.
EVs may currently be unfriendly toward self-repair but that doesn’t always have to be the case.
I’d also suggest that you are operating under the illusion of self-repair. Is replacing a transmission something you can do? An engine? Sure let’s say you can. Personally I can’t replace an engine any more than I can replace a motor on an EV. I don’t have the tools, I still have to rely on society to procure the engine and tools and ship them to my house, etc. idk why this would be more or less difficult than replacing something on an EV besides the battery pack.
I don’t really follow your EV battery comment unless you live in a very abnormal situation which is ok, but it makes your comment much more akin to an abnormal anecdote than a generalized point regarding EVs.
I’d also suggest that you are operating under the illusion of self-repair. Is replacing a transmission something you can do? An engine? Sure let’s say you can. Personally I can’t replace an engine any more than I can replace a motor on an EV. I don’t have the tools, I still have to rely on society to procure the engine and tools and ship them to my house, etc. idk why this would be more or less difficult than replacing something on an EV besides the battery pack.
I don’t really follow your EV battery comment unless you live in a very abnormal situation which is ok, but it makes your comment much more akin to an abnormal anecdote than a generalized point regarding EVs.
Replacing an ev motor sounds easier to me than an engine. Assuming you can get parts
But do you have the equipment to calibrate the resolver of this new motor by connecting to the inverter and writing the new resolver offset into its EEPROM? I thought not.
If you swapped out the motor on your EV like you suggested, it would start spewing out illegal levels of EM interference, screaming like a pig and randomly chopping out at high speed.
This is why self right to repair is a complex issue. Even for EVs which seem simple but are not. Every single component is so tightly coupled.
If you swapped out the motor on your EV like you suggested, it would start spewing out illegal levels of EM interference, screaming like a pig and randomly chopping out at high speed.
This is why self right to repair is a complex issue. Even for EVs which seem simple but are not. Every single component is so tightly coupled.
>> But do you have the equipment to calibrate the resolver of this new motor by connecting to the inverter and writing the new resolver offset into its EEPROM? I thought not.
Sounds like a simple Python script you could download from an enthusiast forum.
Sounds like a simple Python script you could download from an enthusiast forum.
Or a calibration mode where you roll the car down a small hill for a couple of revolutions.
Either way still sounds easier than replacing the engine on a new car where you have to do some software module stuff to get the engine talking to the cars computer.
Either way still sounds easier than replacing the engine on a new car where you have to do some software module stuff to get the engine talking to the cars computer.
It seems about on par with performance tuning an ICE ECU which is done by hobbyists all the time with a laptop running any of a number of readily available software packages and an ODB2 dongle.
> Also an EV has more battery capacity than my house so it'd be pretty hard to charge a car in the winter when I can barely keep my house batteries running my house.
Not sure if you're just talking about something specific to your house, or making a broader point.
Once EVs are widespread, they can add a huge amount of storage capacity to the grid. Not hard to imagine utility and government incentives that encourage car owners to make some of their battery power available at peak load times.
Not sure if you're just talking about something specific to your house, or making a broader point.
Once EVs are widespread, they can add a huge amount of storage capacity to the grid. Not hard to imagine utility and government incentives that encourage car owners to make some of their battery power available at peak load times.
I'm not convinced. The "smart grid" has been discussed for over a decade. Would anyone here allow their Tesla to discharge when parked, allow it to feed power back into the grid? What if those extra charge/discharge cycles decreases the battery's life expectancy? The small bonus payments (pennies) just won't cut it imho. People will charge their cars and keep them charged.
> Would anyone here allow their Tesla to discharge when parked, allow it to feed power back into the grid?
I absolutely would, in fact it's a major reason I am not getting a Tesla and am instead opting for an EV that emphasizes its vehicle-to-home power capabilities (e.g. F150 Lightning and Lucid). I also know a ton of other Texans who feel the same way I do given our (deserved) lack of faith in our electric grid.
Also, saying it's "feeding power back to the grid", while technically accurate, isn't necessarily how I think this will be messaged. Instead, I think it will be messaged that, in times of high demand, your house alone will be powered by your car battery and taken "off grid".
Right now, some of the biggest issues with renewables is just timing during the day (e.g. late afternoon/early evening power needs peak right as the sun is setting). Telling people they'll get a substantially discounted rate if they allow their house to be "disconnected" from the grid for a few hours (because they have a car battery that can power their house) would be a big incentive to a lot of people.
I absolutely would, in fact it's a major reason I am not getting a Tesla and am instead opting for an EV that emphasizes its vehicle-to-home power capabilities (e.g. F150 Lightning and Lucid). I also know a ton of other Texans who feel the same way I do given our (deserved) lack of faith in our electric grid.
Also, saying it's "feeding power back to the grid", while technically accurate, isn't necessarily how I think this will be messaged. Instead, I think it will be messaged that, in times of high demand, your house alone will be powered by your car battery and taken "off grid".
Right now, some of the biggest issues with renewables is just timing during the day (e.g. late afternoon/early evening power needs peak right as the sun is setting). Telling people they'll get a substantially discounted rate if they allow their house to be "disconnected" from the grid for a few hours (because they have a car battery that can power their house) would be a big incentive to a lot of people.
But why involve your car? The logical thing to do is install a large lead-acid battery pack for the house, one which is dirt-cheap and won't suffer being charged/discharged. Lead acid batteries of a capacity equivalent to a Tesla can be had for a few hundred dollars. Lead-acids are also infinitely recyclable and don't involve the nasty/complex chemicals of lithiums. The ideal system would be to slowly charge the massive house battery whenever power is cheap, then dump it into charging the Tesla without drawing from the grid.
Because the point is the car already has a giant battery. A Tesla Powerwall has 13.5 kWh of storage, while a F150 Lightning battery has nearly 10 times that.
And yes, V2H power can increase wear on the battery, but my understanding is that large strides have been made (and certainly will be made) in reducing the wear impact on the battery.
And yes, V2H power can increase wear on the battery, but my understanding is that large strides have been made (and certainly will be made) in reducing the wear impact on the battery.
What "nasty" chemicals are in a lithium battery?
Lithium batteries live longer than lead acid.
My company tried designing a unit that runs off a solar panel and battery. We initially designed around a lead acid battery. And as we kept accounting for things it just got larger and more expensive. We then switched to a lithium ion battery and it's literally a 1/3 the cost and a tenth the weight/size.
As we saw in Europe and Texas, electricity price could get insane extremely high for a short time so possibly power grid operator pays more. A problem is that some people want to hoard electricity on their vehicle in such situation.
It’s actually pretty difficult to imagine round trip AC to DC to AC in people’s garages being competitive price-wise but who knows? Maybe in colder climates where cooling is less of an issue.
It's all about the delta of low-cost to high-cost electricity. Most utilities are introducing time of use plans that expose customers to prices closer to the wholesale markets.
A few kWh from the middle of the charge range has about zero cost to battery life, and the owner has to pay the carrying costs of a car anyway, so their costs will be less than the cost of dedicated grid storage for those few kWh.
A few kWh from the middle of the charge range has about zero cost to battery life, and the owner has to pay the carrying costs of a car anyway, so their costs will be less than the cost of dedicated grid storage for those few kWh.
Talking specifically about my house. I live off grid and wouldn't be able to produce enough power in the winter to charge a car and my house.
This entire thread is a collection of niche cases. I just bought a gas guzzler because in my part of Wyoming the dealership model is broken for EVs I’d want, and Tesla’s are optically problematic for me to own. But if the unaddressed market are rural Americans and those off grid, market forces making gas distribution expensive will nudge it into equilibrium.
I love the idea of an EV, but ultimately it’s just extending a pretty unsustainable car culture involving the allocation of half of urban space to individuals moving around 1~2 tons of metal in order to do trips that would be much shorter with better designed cities, while letting walking, cycling and transit languish.
Agree. If EV, I prefer electric bikes/scooters. Especially that crazy swappable battery thing they have in Singapore (https://news.yahoo.com/trial-battery-swap-charge-stations-el...).
To be sure, in the U.S., you would probably still need a car in winter, rain...
To that end, the wife and I are down to a single car we share between the two of us. (Seems like such a radical thing to do in the U.S. for some reason.)
To be sure, in the U.S., you would probably still need a car in winter, rain...
To that end, the wife and I are down to a single car we share between the two of us. (Seems like such a radical thing to do in the U.S. for some reason.)
I don't know if it's radical, but having a single car stops being practical as soon as your two kids have to be at different sports tournaments 100 miles apart. Sure in theory you can rent another car when you need it, but in practice it's such a hassle that unless you're short of parking spaces it's easier to own 2 cars.
Internet connection ≠ EV. It just so happens many correlate, but many do not.
Is there an EV available which is not internet connected?
Basically all of them except Tesla
Something like a VW ID.4 is just as connected as any other VW.
I feel like predictions on EV adoption generally focus too much on practical benefits and cost improvements over time, but discount - or at least fail to mention - the potential impact of ICE products becoming very uncool, very quickly - at least in Western countries. Overnight, even.
It’s not a big stretch to imagine that generations of younger people concerned about the climate might make product consumption choices that draw a clear line between themselves and their ICE-driving parents.
It’s not a big stretch to imagine that generations of younger people concerned about the climate might make product consumption choices that draw a clear line between themselves and their ICE-driving parents.
Plausible, but I always come back to TCO. The real reason EVs are suddenly gaining traction is that prices for gasoline spiked and a lot of people are finally realizing that EVs typically cost much less to fuel. Think about how people suddenly start trading in pickups for compact cars when gas prices have spiked in the past -- and maybe that to save 25-50% on fuel cost. A bunch of people are realizing that going to EV is saving more like 75% or more, and that's without downsizing.
So of course EVs were going to become very popular. Just had to get people past the range anxiety and charging unfamiliarity. Now they see that all their neighbors are doing just fine with their new Teslas/etc, and they talk to them about their experience, anxiety goes down, and they sign their name on the waiting list.
So of course EVs were going to become very popular. Just had to get people past the range anxiety and charging unfamiliarity. Now they see that all their neighbors are doing just fine with their new Teslas/etc, and they talk to them about their experience, anxiety goes down, and they sign their name on the waiting list.
Prices of electricity have spiked as well in Europe, thanks to the war in Ukraine. I just recently read an article saying that in Netherlands it's now more expensive to drive electric car than gasoline powered one.
I don’t agree. All of my cars consumed ~8 liter petrol/diesel for 100 km. Electric vehicle of the same size needs less than 25 kwh. I agree, that using that very special 250 kW ionity charger petrol car is cheaper. But it’s extreme case. There are enough slower chargers with sane price making electrical vehicles very economic.
Yeah I think that’s a good explanation of what’s driving current demand, and I suspect that projections as to the future direction of those cost inputs is primarily what’s driving these (widely-publicised) predictive models.
But my point wasn’t that “people are buying EVs because they’re cool”, but rather: I bet current projections of future rates of EV adoption underweight the effect of ICE products becoming desperately uncool faster than most expect.
It’s just a hunch though.
But my point wasn’t that “people are buying EVs because they’re cool”, but rather: I bet current projections of future rates of EV adoption underweight the effect of ICE products becoming desperately uncool faster than most expect.
It’s just a hunch though.
This doesn't take into account the cost of replacing the battery when it degrades over time, and the cost of the much more limited range, and the cost of a much much longer fueling time.
It doesn't account for replacing the engine on the ICE car either, which has about the same schedule as an EV battery.
I spent 5-10 minutes of my life every week keeping my last ICE vehicle fueled. I spend 15 seconds a day keeping my EV topped off. I've saved so much time not having to go to the gas station that I still come out waaaaay ahead even if I have to stop for 20-30 minutes to recharge on my road trip.
I spent 5-10 minutes of my life every week keeping my last ICE vehicle fueled. I spend 15 seconds a day keeping my EV topped off. I've saved so much time not having to go to the gas station that I still come out waaaaay ahead even if I have to stop for 20-30 minutes to recharge on my road trip.
ICE lifespan lasts decades longer than an EV battery with zero degradation on range. I'm still driving my 1992 vehicle today. Your assumption is just wrong.
A related area is legislation, e.g. banning non-zero emission vehicles from city boundaries.
Big cities have had these for a while, but they become more acceptable when people are seen to be doing something that is both wrong and unusual.
See the acceleration of smoking bans over time.
This is sometimes referred to as "The Inevitable Policy Response" when talking about pricing the value of businesses with carbon-heavy outputs.
https://www.unpri.org/sustainability-issues/climate-change/i...
Big cities have had these for a while, but they become more acceptable when people are seen to be doing something that is both wrong and unusual.
See the acceleration of smoking bans over time.
This is sometimes referred to as "The Inevitable Policy Response" when talking about pricing the value of businesses with carbon-heavy outputs.
https://www.unpri.org/sustainability-issues/climate-change/i...
Predictions are just that. Right now it costs more in the Netherlands to charge your electric car than to fill up your petrol car. I never anticipated that could happen. With what is happening in the European energy market this might become the norm, making car buyers not 'make the mistake of buying EV again'.
So why didn't this happen with the prius?
Because a Prius isn't a particularly 'cool' vehicle (my step-son and his friends detest them, and they're pretty into cars), and were widely used as taxis (at least here in the UK), so they have an image problem.
Full EVs have a much better reputation with them - even something like my Renault Zoe - because they have zero tailpipe emissions, and even the Zoe is pretty quick and super-smooth in comparison to a comparable ICE vehicle.
Full EVs have a much better reputation with them - even something like my Renault Zoe - because they have zero tailpipe emissions, and even the Zoe is pretty quick and super-smooth in comparison to a comparable ICE vehicle.
We’re in a completely different cultural moment now on climate change, and modern EVs are quite unlike the Prius.
It kinda happened, South Park even made an episode about it!
As the infrastructure is in place and battery recycling is maturing, the gotcha arguments holding back culture are evaporating.
Given EV’s should have price parity with ICE by 2025-2027, I think its obvious that EV adoption should accelerate.
Unless you are purchasing a very cheap sub-$20k car, EV’s should become the only choice by 2030.
https://insideevs.com/news/506465/evs-price-parity-europe-20...
Unless you are purchasing a very cheap sub-$20k car, EV’s should become the only choice by 2030.
https://insideevs.com/news/506465/evs-price-parity-europe-20...
Unless they improve the recharge speed or dramatically improve thr power density, we're gonna have ICEs for a long time. Electric vehicles are not good in cold weather, they so far have not proven themselves to be capable of long haul towing (battery life drops off precipitously while towing), there is not enough charging ports or parking spots for hundreds of millions of cars to recharge, emergency vehicles cannot depend on EV (you can't wait for an ambulance to recharge for 45 minutes). Also, power grid constraints. California recently asked electric car owners to not charge at certain times of the day. This, in spite of the fact that electric cars are still in single digit percentages of ownership. This is unacceptable and it's very clear the grid is not ready to support it.
>Electric vehicles are not good in cold weather,
The country with highest share of EV is… Norway. And by a huge margin.
https://alternative-fuels-observatory.ec.europa.eu/transport...
I think you're wrong.
The country with highest share of EV is… Norway. And by a huge margin.
https://alternative-fuels-observatory.ec.europa.eu/transport...
I think you're wrong.
https://insideevs.com/news/556375/electric-car-winter-range-...
EVs lose 15-40% of their range in cold weather.
EVs lose 15-40% of their range in cold weather.
> emergency vehicles cannot depend on EV (you can't wait for an ambulance to recharge for 45 minutes)
That seems pretty irrelevant? It's not like you have only one ambulance.
That seems pretty irrelevant? It's not like you have only one ambulance.
In remote areas of the US you very well could have only one ambulance.
And what if it breaks? You can't really have only one ambulance either way.
But even then, OK, you could argue that in some specific scenarios you need an ICE ambulance. That does not mean that ambulances can't be EV.
But even then, OK, you could argue that in some specific scenarios you need an ICE ambulance. That does not mean that ambulances can't be EV.
In the extremely contrived example where two calls come in back to back from locations that are 400 miles apart, the need to charge an EV in the middle of driving for 6 hours straight is going to be a pretty minor factor.
Lol maybe take a look at Canada where towns are 100km apart and an ambulance can potentially be driving constantly on an 8 hour shift. Not to mention the Fact they have huge alternators on them to power all the medical stuff.
> California recently asked electric car owners to not charge at certain times of the day.
California asked its residents to save electricity (so, among other things, not charge cars) between 4 and 9 pm - during the evening peak.
That's not when most people charge their EVs.
This has been sensationalized by some media outlets.
California asked its residents to save electricity (so, among other things, not charge cars) between 4 and 9 pm - during the evening peak.
That's not when most people charge their EVs.
This has been sensationalized by some media outlets.
>there is not enough charging ports or parking spots for hundreds of millions of cars to recharge
Most people drive so little, they could recharge once a week. And I doubt they couldn't do it neither at home, nor the office, nor the supermarket, nor anywhere else.
Stores will do everything to have people charge at their parking. Remember when hotels made people pay for Wifi? I do.
Most people drive so little, they could recharge once a week. And I doubt they couldn't do it neither at home, nor the office, nor the supermarket, nor anywhere else.
Stores will do everything to have people charge at their parking. Remember when hotels made people pay for Wifi? I do.
Norway says hello.
Norway is small (1700km N->S, but a fraction of that E->W.) One can drive it's entire length in a day or two. It is barely half the size of Texas. Nor is Norway very cold. Because it is so close to the sea, temperatures rarely drop below -10c.
>> Unless they improve the recharge speed or dramatically improve thr power density
That may be the doomsday scenario. Imagine we had a new battery tech today that could cram 1000+miles into a car in say 5 minutes. EV sales would spike. ICEs would disappear. Then everyone would get their new EV home ... and the national electricity grid would collapse.
That may be the doomsday scenario. Imagine we had a new battery tech today that could cram 1000+miles into a car in say 5 minutes. EV sales would spike. ICEs would disappear. Then everyone would get their new EV home ... and the national electricity grid would collapse.
It's not like everyone who drives an EV recharges their full battery capacity every day. And besides, home charges are typically level-2 charging from a 220V outlet, and they charge overnight. DC fast charging in homes basically doesn't exist, because the expense of the electrical service you'd need to do that doesn't make sense unless you're putting the fast charger somewhere where it will be heavily used.
Grid upgrades are a thing that's going to have to happen, but I think the concern is kind of overblown. It's not like everyone is going to switch to EVs at the same time, and over the course of a decade or two the utilities can use the increased revenue they're collecting to upgrade their infrastructure as needed.
We're going to need more electricity production to offset the increased demand. Some of that might be offset by residential solar.
Grid upgrades are a thing that's going to have to happen, but I think the concern is kind of overblown. It's not like everyone is going to switch to EVs at the same time, and over the course of a decade or two the utilities can use the increased revenue they're collecting to upgrade their infrastructure as needed.
We're going to need more electricity production to offset the increased demand. Some of that might be offset by residential solar.
speaking of doomsday, I can stock up on fuel with reasonable effort (storage tank, fuel stabilizer). But you can't easily build your own battery farm
Interesting perspective. Another view: solar panels on your roof, using your car battery for your house nighttime needs means that during doomsday your energy intensive lifestyle doesn't have to change at all.
Ah yes, the roof of my building where I'm on a middle floor. I'll start lobbying the board to install solar for just me to use.
The problem with a lot of this is that the more "responsible" you're already living, the less reasonable the next "responsible" thing is to do. Going solar/off grid is only really possible if you live on a lot of land where you're the only resident, which is otherwise generally not recommended. If you live in dense housing, you probably don't have solar, let alone a way to charge an EV. I park my current car 100-500 feet from the nearest outlet that I own. There's essentially no world I could buy an EV and not have to charge it for hours outside of my home.
The efficient future is here, but it's for the rich who did all the garbage NIMBY stuff that made it necessary for everyone else to have to live "efficiently" to make up for their gluttonous use of land/power over the past decades.
The problem with a lot of this is that the more "responsible" you're already living, the less reasonable the next "responsible" thing is to do. Going solar/off grid is only really possible if you live on a lot of land where you're the only resident, which is otherwise generally not recommended. If you live in dense housing, you probably don't have solar, let alone a way to charge an EV. I park my current car 100-500 feet from the nearest outlet that I own. There's essentially no world I could buy an EV and not have to charge it for hours outside of my home.
The efficient future is here, but it's for the rich who did all the garbage NIMBY stuff that made it necessary for everyone else to have to live "efficiently" to make up for their gluttonous use of land/power over the past decades.
To reply to the GP’s point here … if you live in apartment you also aren’t stockpiling Jerry cans of gs, either.
You sure can keep a couple on your vehicle
A couple jerry cans in your vehicle is hardly a "stockpile." And also not a great idea.
It’s enough to get you 50-100% of your range. And it is a great idea on long trips or off-roading (and can sometimes be required)
> if you live on a lot of land where you're the only resident, which is otherwise generally not recommended
By whom? In my case, I am not the only resident, I have a large family on our acreage.
By whom? In my case, I am not the only resident, I have a large family on our acreage.
It is dangerous to assume that everyone lives in a house with a roof, or that they are free to reconfigure thier home's electrical systems. I certainly cannot.
Well if you live in an apartment complex, I'm pretty sure storing large amounts of gasoline in your apartment isn't allowed either, so there's not a difference.
I keep a jerry fan on the back of my truck in the parking garage.
Preppers are apparently really into adding solar panels to the top of golf carts these days.
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You can relatively easily install solar panels/batteries, and they even pay for themselves while we await doomsday.
Power density and recharge speed has been increasing steadily for decades.
I had the misfortune of renting a Tesla right before a severe cold snap in Virginia. I was charging at 4 miles an hour at the public charging station. I’m not sure I would buy an EV in an area where it stays below freezing for weeks at a time.
Norway has the highest rate of EV adoption in the world. I live in Minnesota and none of my friends or neighbors have had problems with their EVs.
Level 2 charging (i.e. 240V home charging) is not affected by cold temperatures unless it's well below freezing, like below 0 F.
Level 2 charging (i.e. 240V home charging) is not affected by cold temperatures unless it's well below freezing, like below 0 F.
Most Norwegian BEV owners also own an ICE for the winter. Adoption is high due to incentives.
More importantly, most of the places where people live in Norway are not actually that cold. In Oslo it hasn't dropped below -20C / -4F since 2010.
Most folks would consider -20C cold AF.
-4F is pretty cold, especially compared to temps in VA in the US. I'd be a little surprised if VA got to below 10F in the last 10 years.
Depends on where. Probably not in Richmond, certainly not in Virginia Beach. But up in the mountains it gets chilly. Winchester apparently averages a little over one day a year where the low dips below 0°F.
> not actually that cold
> In Oslo it hasn't dropped below -20C / -4F since 2010.
-20C is brutally cold, far colder than any coldest winter day I ever experienced while living in the northeast USA.
> In Oslo it hasn't dropped below -20C / -4F since 2010.
-20C is brutally cold, far colder than any coldest winter day I ever experienced while living in the northeast USA.
Where I live we usually have that for at least two weeks during winter, and the rest of the time hovering around -10C (for two to three months). We don't have much snow though, and little wind, so it's really not that bad if you are dressed properly.
Man oh man you wouldn't enjoy eastern Europe in the 90s.
Aside from the general post-communism, we had -30C cold snaps.
But yeah, snot freezes at around -18C - I consider this the point at which things become universally unpleasant regardless how prepared you are.
That being said during a cold snap of -22C I saw my neighbours struggle to start their ICE cars while my hybrid just brutally kicked the engine into action.
Aside from the general post-communism, we had -30C cold snaps.
But yeah, snot freezes at around -18C - I consider this the point at which things become universally unpleasant regardless how prepared you are.
That being said during a cold snap of -22C I saw my neighbours struggle to start their ICE cars while my hybrid just brutally kicked the engine into action.
Global warming came in handy for once.
That's crazy. I've had my Model 3 in northern Virginia for over four years. Charging at any Tesla charger has always been quick, freezing cold still 100+ miles in 20 minutes. Charging at the free chargers at the grocery store with an adapter in the dead of winter isn't the fastest, but it's always greater than four miles per hour.
The only car temperature problem I've had in the winter in Virginia hasn't been with an EV at all - just a VW diesel that had trouble starting due to extreme cold.
The only car temperature problem I've had in the winter in Virginia hasn't been with an EV at all - just a VW diesel that had trouble starting due to extreme cold.
That seems like a very low power charger that had nothing to do with the cold.
Sounds like an L1 or malfunctioning L2. I’d never revert to ICE in cold weather climates. Handling is great and ability to preheat (without idling) is a wonderful convenience on cold mornings.
Growing pains. Not really unlike how it used to be hard to start cars in cold weather- newer cars have heaters built into the battery, since its basically zero-cost, and enough insulation that they can get up to temp quite quickly. Heating the cabin is a bigger issue, since it's pretty hard to reduce what is a
significant drain.
4 miles/hour is very, very slow. It's the maximum output of a standard wall charger. Maybe you were at a level 1 charger?
4 miles/hour is very, very slow. It's the maximum output of a standard wall charger. Maybe you were at a level 1 charger?
I live in the upper midwest where it gets quite cold, and I absolutely love my EV. I charge at home off of a regular wall outlet, and haven't had any issues during the winter. The trick is to charge overnight at home, slow and steady wins the race.
Give me a decent un-networked EV and I’ll buy it immediately. Until then I’ll keep my ICE vehicle. Which will probably be until they’re eventually banned, because I don’t think a decent un-networked EV is ever going to exist.
It's unfair to ask for an un-networked EV when basically nobody is even making un-networked ICE vehicles anymore.
It’s very simple to find a high quality ICE vehicle that is not substantially networked to remote services, or at least that you can easily disconnect. I brought a brand new one very recently, nobody is able to remotely control the vehicle, and the only surveillance instruments in the car are the ones I choose to carry around with me.
What make and model?
Dacia Sandero would tick that box. I don't think the Toyota Yaris is connected either.
Any modern car can be remote controlled by plugging a device into the port used by comma.io
If you're really worried about the agencies hijacking you to kill you, you're gonna need to buy vintage.
If you're really worried about the agencies hijacking you to kill you, you're gonna need to buy vintage.
Not kill. Control. Like Tesla deleting features that the original owner paid for. Like BMW charging a monthly fee to activate features already built into the car. Like UI updates that are automatic and make options worse but you can't stop the updates.
Being harmed is also a concern. I don’t own any other products where a software bug or compromised system has quite the same potential to physically harm me.
But underlying that is the fact that there are no networked features that I personally want my car to have. So however small the risks (of both physical harm and being effected by bizarre networked car dark patterns), they are risks that I would be taking exclusively for the benefit of the manufacturer of the product for which I am supposedly the customer. As long as there is an acceptable alternative to such a product, I will always choose the alternative.
But underlying that is the fact that there are no networked features that I personally want my car to have. So however small the risks (of both physical harm and being effected by bizarre networked car dark patterns), they are risks that I would be taking exclusively for the benefit of the manufacturer of the product for which I am supposedly the customer. As long as there is an acceptable alternative to such a product, I will always choose the alternative.
>Like Tesla deleting features that the original owner paid for.
If you think this has happened, I believe you are mistaken. But I'm open to hearing evidence.
If you think this has happened, I believe you are mistaken. But I'm open to hearing evidence.
It’s going to be increasingly more difficult to find an un-networked vehicle period.
Is there something that makes the electric Volkswagens, Hyundais, Nissans, Chevys and Fords different from the conventional cars?
Greed.
More seriously, a natural obsolescence from dead battery packs that are BER.
More seriously, a natural obsolescence from dead battery packs that are BER.
Un-networked? My wife's Bolt just has OnStar, which has nothing to do with it being an EV -- all GM vehicles have come with OnStar for years now. Pretty easy to disable it, too.
Is it not possible to take a Tesla off of the network by physically disconnecting something?
You could just take the SIM card out and never connect it to wifi.
Things like navigation can be done on-board (proven when in zero connectivity area), and playing MP3s from a USB can replace spotify.
No idea what it might start complaining about long term though when it can't talk to the backend for extended periods.
Things like navigation can be done on-board (proven when in zero connectivity area), and playing MP3s from a USB can replace spotify.
No idea what it might start complaining about long term though when it can't talk to the backend for extended periods.
Strikes me as odd that electrics are not cheaper than internal combustion. I guess it's the batteries, huh?
Batteries and lots of copper and aluminum. Steel is cheap. You also have better economy of scale in IC vehicles for now.
I feel like we're dismissing other hydrocarbons too early. When I was a kid, people had propane or methane cars which were basically converted gasoline cars. Sure, not anywhere near as efficient but combined with hybrid tech for regenerative braking you likely have a more efficient car overall(nat gas is less refining energy than gasoline IIRC and we have a lot of it). You can also build them a lot cheaper since they use smaller electric motors, less coppper, less aluminum, and less lithium.
Yes I know BEV zealots hate hybrids but until we have better Li supply chains we need to conserve it and get more vehicles off of pure IC drivetrains.
I feel like we're dismissing other hydrocarbons too early. When I was a kid, people had propane or methane cars which were basically converted gasoline cars. Sure, not anywhere near as efficient but combined with hybrid tech for regenerative braking you likely have a more efficient car overall(nat gas is less refining energy than gasoline IIRC and we have a lot of it). You can also build them a lot cheaper since they use smaller electric motors, less coppper, less aluminum, and less lithium.
Yes I know BEV zealots hate hybrids but until we have better Li supply chains we need to conserve it and get more vehicles off of pure IC drivetrains.
Methanol is a perfectly good fuel that is already made at industrial scales. Switching the source of the hydrogen feedstock from natural gas to electrolysis can actually increase the efficiency of the process. Green methanol will be powering ships within the next five years, and there's no reason we couldn't use it for cars as well, considering there are methanol-powered vehicles on the road today.
I used to drive airport shuttles that ran on CNG. I think the airport wanted to lower emissions on site. Worked fine, except that the county only had two stations with CNG pumps. They kept a couple of regular vans that could stop for gasoline on longer trips.
Propane converted cars are still pretty popular in Eastern Europe. LPG at gas stations is 2x cheaper than gasoline in my country. The popularity comes from the lower salaries here so I don't see EVs becoming widespread in these parts in the next decade.
I wish so but the forecast is wrote in early 2021. I wonder is it still true after we saw inflation, high demand and short of battery supply, and supply shortage.
The only logical choice. Some people particularly in the Midwest and South won’t switch until they absolutely have to, TCO be damned.
There's little public charging infrastructure here in the upper Midwest as of yet, which is a significant barrier for many.
What worries me if what happens when manufacturers abandon battery platforms. There have been a few stories lately of older cars- the Chevy volt comes to mind- where the batteries aren't made anymore, and replacing one is in the $20-30k, several times over what the car actually sells for.
Instead, it'd be nice if the battery packs were built in a modularized way, so that if one section dies, it can be replaced rather than the entire pack.
Otherwise, buying a used EV is a massive gamble for lower class folk who typically only buy used cars.
What worries me if what happens when manufacturers abandon battery platforms. There have been a few stories lately of older cars- the Chevy volt comes to mind- where the batteries aren't made anymore, and replacing one is in the $20-30k, several times over what the car actually sells for.
Instead, it'd be nice if the battery packs were built in a modularized way, so that if one section dies, it can be replaced rather than the entire pack.
Otherwise, buying a used EV is a massive gamble for lower class folk who typically only buy used cars.
You might be surprised. I have some hyper conservative folks in my extended family, and a couple of them have switched to EVs. Definitely goes against their tribal ideology, but money talks. When you drive a lot, it doesn't take much math to make you realize driving a pickup (or any regular ICE car for that matter) is an overpriced way to signal virtue. Just get a flag.
It goes beyond money savings. People actually enjoy their Teslas, even if you don't care about the environment or money savings. You can't beat their acceleration. They are fun cars to drive.
When it will be cheaper, they'll all switch. Price is usually the best argument.
It's sad how green energy has become part of the culture wars, especially given many of the states most impacted by climate change (Florida, Texas) could benefit the most. They also have vast possibilities in green power.
In what way? Texas and Florida have the 2nd and 3rd most installed solar in the US by state
And Texas generates the most wind power…
Republican politicians notably tried to blame the ice storm outages last year on green energy. https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/16/texas-wind-turbines-...
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Given the much lower fuel/power cost and reduced maintenance costs, they don't necessarily need to reach price parity.
Buying a car right now feels like a tough decision. ICEs are on their way out, even illegal pretty soon, but EVs aren’t quite there yet especially if you live in the city and can’t charge at home.
Probably best to wait ~5 years then buy an EV, if you can wait.
Probably best to wait ~5 years then buy an EV, if you can wait.
Owning my own house, I will say that I'd happily never buy another ICE car. Charging at home is so much better than waiting in line at the gas station every week. The performance is excellent. In basically all ways that don't involve absurdly long road trips, the EV is the better choice.
But price. That's the killer right now. They're popular, batteries are expensive. I may actually go back to a PHEV for my next car even after I swore I'd never own a non-EV again because I'm hooked. Because the price difference is 20 grand, and the EV will never save me 20 grand over its life compared to a good PHEV. I'm a bit miffed about the whole thing, to be honest. Prices are insane for everything. I need a raise, clearly.
But price. That's the killer right now. They're popular, batteries are expensive. I may actually go back to a PHEV for my next car even after I swore I'd never own a non-EV again because I'm hooked. Because the price difference is 20 grand, and the EV will never save me 20 grand over its life compared to a good PHEV. I'm a bit miffed about the whole thing, to be honest. Prices are insane for everything. I need a raise, clearly.
> Charging at home is so much better than waiting in line at the gas station every week.
There are lines at gas stations in developed countries? I can't even remember when I last saw one.
There are lines at gas stations in developed countries? I can't even remember when I last saw one.
Many stations aren’t busy, but some people wait in line for Costco prices.
Eh, EV's are there. The older models like my 2012 leaf arent. But everything new is. The bigger issue is infrastructure. Leaving it to the market to put in charging has been a disaster. I can't relate or understand the 'city' argument (if you live in a city, get a bus pass), but for home charging, so long as you've got a commute or two of range, you can either charge at work parking or at home, mix mox.
Internal combustion illegal soon? To own?
I missed that memo.
I missed that memo.
Illegal to sell new in a number of jurisdictions, starting sometime in the next 10-to-never years. Would probably put us on track to 3-4 degrees of warming.
Unless it becomes illegal to sell used also then that should not be an issue when deciding what type of car to buy now.
I don't think it's actually going to be illegal to sell cars with ICEs anywhere, just cars that don't have a zero-emission run mode (so plug in hybrids will still be OK even though they'd run fine without a plug-in)
Wouldn't hybrids be an acceptable middle ground for right now then? I imagine they won't be illegal any time soon, since it'll probably be at least 2 decades before we see EV infrastructure coverage of 99% of drivers' trips, and that last 1% (think driving around Alaska) will take just as much effort to service as the first 99%
The price difference needs to include owning a house vs. renting an apartment.
We charged two Teslas at an apartment for years, no problems. Using a single 110 outlet (shared, one car at a time). In the occasional road trips we also used superchargers. If it can work for two cars surely it can work for one car. You do have to choose an apartment where your outlet is close enough to the parking, obviously.
Make an offer to your landlord to pay for a charger installation for your parking spot.
Eventually EVs will be so common that landlords will be falling over themselves to get chargers installed so they aren't pariahs.
Eventually EVs will be so common that landlords will be falling over themselves to get chargers installed so they aren't pariahs.
I don’t think renters are going to start buying EVs until a large majority of rentals have reserved charging and parking somewhere nearby. If landlords wait to see demand, it won’t appear.
Replacing street parking is going to be a bigger problem.
Replacing street parking is going to be a bigger problem.
I suspect it would be even faster if there was a charging option for the many people in cities with their cars in shared garages, even one as simple as just having a lot of 240V outlets. It feels like something that's rather overlooked at the moment.
Agreed, but I think this is likely going to be a "tipping point" type of change. That is, overall EV share is still relatively low, but very soon not having charging at apartment buildings will be a non-starter. I'd easily bet that in 5 years you'll see new condo/apartment developments where every space has a charging option.
Oregon just passed rules mandating 40% of new apt parking spaces must have charging available. That, combined with no parking minimums, means that parking will really be minimal at new complexes imo.
> but very soon not having charging at apartment buildings will be a non-starter.
My HOA has been discussing this and they came to the same conclusion - not installing chargers in the garage will make it very difficult to sell condos here in 5-ish years.
My HOA has been discussing this and they came to the same conclusion - not installing chargers in the garage will make it very difficult to sell condos here in 5-ish years.
The problem is mostly around metering and billing. Installing 240v outlets is very easy. Making the users of them pay for their usage is harder (but not too hard).
No one wants to pay the power usage of someone else.
No one wants to pay the power usage of someone else.
The thing is its already bad enough that new apartments are mandated to build garages. It leads to fewer units being built overall due to that huge cost to the developer. Now you have to add on charging to each and every spot as well? Maybe this is the impetus that finally gets us off the ball and chain of car culture.
No, probably it just drives the cost of housing even higher.
Rental units also, the last 3 places I've rented have had driveways but no ability to charge an electric car, there just isn't enough incentive for landlords to install them yet, maybe if enough people start driving EVs people will significantly favor units with charging amenities but I can't find anything.
I specially install EV charging at every property I rent to cater to EV owners. No premium for doing so of course.
s/specially/specifically. Please excuse my typo!
There are a significant number of references to a BCG report from June 2022. The article doesn’t link to that report directly. I don’t doubt that the report exists… but linking to it wouldn’t hurt. It might be this one:
https://www.bcg.com/publications/2022/electric-cars-finding-...
I’m shocked at the number of people paying EV prices. The Model Y is just about the only EV SUV that you can go out and buy right now, and it starts at $68k.
The math does not support this price premium. You will not save money.
This is before considering that it will cost several thousand to have a charger installed, and to say nothing of the other drawbacks of EV ownership.
My prediction is that EV penetration will plateau pretty quickly. There are no short term plans to turn NYC into an EV friendly city.
The math does not support this price premium. You will not save money.
This is before considering that it will cost several thousand to have a charger installed, and to say nothing of the other drawbacks of EV ownership.
My prediction is that EV penetration will plateau pretty quickly. There are no short term plans to turn NYC into an EV friendly city.
Ownership also doesn't make economic sense. Battery replacement after 10-15 years negates any gas savings in that period.
People are just buying the fad.
They think they are being green but most that charging power still comes from gas/oil power plants.
People are just buying the fad.
They think they are being green but most that charging power still comes from gas/oil power plants.
>Battery replacement after 10-15 years negates any gas savings in that period.
Bullshit. https://www.geotab.com/fleet-management-solutions/ev-battery...
And these are for 10-year old EV. Battery packs made today won't have to be replace after 15 years, and they'll certainly be used as stationary storage past their time on wheels.
More importantly, most EV will switch to LFP chemistry (already more than half Tesla's vehicles production), which degrades even less.
Other sources:
- https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2021-tesla-impact-report.pdf (p. 67) for Tesla S/X fleet wide results.
- https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-dat...
Bullshit. https://www.geotab.com/fleet-management-solutions/ev-battery...
And these are for 10-year old EV. Battery packs made today won't have to be replace after 15 years, and they'll certainly be used as stationary storage past their time on wheels.
More importantly, most EV will switch to LFP chemistry (already more than half Tesla's vehicles production), which degrades even less.
Other sources:
- https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2021-tesla-impact-report.pdf (p. 67) for Tesla S/X fleet wide results.
- https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-dat...
> They think they are being green but most that charging power still comes from gas/oil power plants.
They would still be green if that was the case, though generally it's not, see state by state worked examples here: https://evtool.ucsusa.org/
They would still be green if that was the case, though generally it's not, see state by state worked examples here: https://evtool.ucsusa.org/
Where I live most electricity comes from hydro and wind. The main reason I got an EV though was not striving to be green. It's just so much nicer to drive. I also like how I can pretty much neglect the running costs. Like, how much I drive has negligible impact on my monthly budget.
The thing holding me back as a renter is that a lot of buildings still don't have any way for you to charge your EV. So unless you're into hunting for available public charging sites, you're SooL.
Offer to pay your landlord's cost to put one in for you.
Eventually landlords will be falling over themselves to install chargers so their apartments will remain rentable.
Eventually landlords will be falling over themselves to install chargers so their apartments will remain rentable.
That could be quite costly depending on the wiring locations in the unit and the total current capacity available. Personally as a renter in this situation I'd be pretty reluctant to pay for this unless its going to be saving me enough on gas to offset most of it. I guess if you really plan on a long term rental it might make more sense.
And it's one more thing for buildings to maintain, especially if not gated. In cities like SF it's safe to expect someone to try to dismantle that charger within days to try to sell it for parts.
Depends on where you live. No landlord is going to fall over themselves for anything in SF (or other desirable areas) for a long time.
I ask only for a VERY SIMPLE thing: any damn car and charger equipped with a standard data bus and relevant open and public and standard API to talk. Negotiating needs and options of both sides.
That means I can plug the car in the garage and it talk to my p.v. inverter eating as much energy as it can when the Sun shine and stopping when Sun is not there with user-configurable simple and quick to set parameter: target SOC and target time. Like "I want a minimum SOC for this time". Than car and p.v. do their best to maximize self consumption high voltage DC to inverter MPPT to maximize efficiency as a bonus. Plus since there are anyway to DC wires and also two/more AC wires and the car have an inverter anyway offering energy to the home as needed, with a minimum SOC for when the home is on grid, another for when the grid fail.
Most hybrid/battery inverter already do that since years. There is no &$&%%( reason why cars with their large batteries and naturally limited service life can't do the same.
If an OEM do that, even before have a public standard, witch means needing to change/add an inverter, I'll buy the car ASAP. If not I'll wait until diesel reach 5-6€/liter or became so scarce I can't keep using it. Sorry but there is a limit of CRAPPY and alpha-alike quality crap to be imposed on people because those who design and sell the aforementioned crap do not use it on their own so do not realize what's needed and what's not.
That means I can plug the car in the garage and it talk to my p.v. inverter eating as much energy as it can when the Sun shine and stopping when Sun is not there with user-configurable simple and quick to set parameter: target SOC and target time. Like "I want a minimum SOC for this time". Than car and p.v. do their best to maximize self consumption high voltage DC to inverter MPPT to maximize efficiency as a bonus. Plus since there are anyway to DC wires and also two/more AC wires and the car have an inverter anyway offering energy to the home as needed, with a minimum SOC for when the home is on grid, another for when the grid fail.
Most hybrid/battery inverter already do that since years. There is no &$&%%( reason why cars with their large batteries and naturally limited service life can't do the same.
If an OEM do that, even before have a public standard, witch means needing to change/add an inverter, I'll buy the car ASAP. If not I'll wait until diesel reach 5-6€/liter or became so scarce I can't keep using it. Sorry but there is a limit of CRAPPY and alpha-alike quality crap to be imposed on people because those who design and sell the aforementioned crap do not use it on their own so do not realize what's needed and what's not.
The last time I owned a car was 1997. The last time I actually drove one was 2011 (I put about 1200 miles on a rental car in a week.)
I still retain a driver's license. I owned a bicycle for a few years but I ditched it, because it was extraordinarily inconvenient for all the use I got, at least after I quit a call-center job in an isolated office park.
I've ridden public transit for about 45 years, thanks Grandma!
This year I'm going multi-modal. I'm using taxi cabs for errands like groceries and laundry. I'm using specialized rideshare for medical appointments. I use public transit for ordinary errands and appointments where I don't need to lug a lot of cargo around. I use scooter-shares for quickly zipping somewhere with zero cargo (it's fun! 17MPH in a traffic lane! Look ma, no helmets!) And I rented a car (ICE, no other options) a few months ago which enabled me to do stuff like haul scrap metal and other recycling to the facility, which does not permit citizens without a vehicle (and just try convincing a taxi driver to cooperate with that ritual...)
I live in a very, very multi-modal-friendly city and they're aggressively adding options and restructuring the highways and byways to be friendly to people just like me. There's a new community of micro-homes going in two blocks down. It's going to be quite the multi-modal transportation Utopia for the foreseeable future!
I still retain a driver's license. I owned a bicycle for a few years but I ditched it, because it was extraordinarily inconvenient for all the use I got, at least after I quit a call-center job in an isolated office park.
I've ridden public transit for about 45 years, thanks Grandma!
This year I'm going multi-modal. I'm using taxi cabs for errands like groceries and laundry. I'm using specialized rideshare for medical appointments. I use public transit for ordinary errands and appointments where I don't need to lug a lot of cargo around. I use scooter-shares for quickly zipping somewhere with zero cargo (it's fun! 17MPH in a traffic lane! Look ma, no helmets!) And I rented a car (ICE, no other options) a few months ago which enabled me to do stuff like haul scrap metal and other recycling to the facility, which does not permit citizens without a vehicle (and just try convincing a taxi driver to cooperate with that ritual...)
I live in a very, very multi-modal-friendly city and they're aggressively adding options and restructuring the highways and byways to be friendly to people just like me. There's a new community of micro-homes going in two blocks down. It's going to be quite the multi-modal transportation Utopia for the foreseeable future!
I definitely prefer to have an ice vehicle for range and privacy reasons. But I have this irrational hatred of oil changes. For me that seems like the biggest bonus of an EV.
Edit: I guess I don’t like the idea that ordinary procrastination can, in this case destroy a 50k investment.
Edit: I guess I don’t like the idea that ordinary procrastination can, in this case destroy a 50k investment.
i'm a half full kinda guy, pretty amazing to me that just changing oil can save so much headache...
Doesn't your garage handle that for you at the yearly checkup?
Do people have "garages" and yearly checkups? Maybe it's a European thing?
In the U.S. we have Jiffy Lube and the "checkup" is just another way for them to squeeze the customer for cash. We are so distrustful of auto mechanics in general that, no, I don't think most of us go looking for a yearly fleecing, ha ha (not funny, really).
In the U.S. we have Jiffy Lube and the "checkup" is just another way for them to squeeze the customer for cash. We are so distrustful of auto mechanics in general that, no, I don't think most of us go looking for a yearly fleecing, ha ha (not funny, really).
It's mandatory here in Europe, if you care about being road-legal.
It depends on the state one lives in the USA. For instance in Texas, a garage inspects your vehicle once a year on basic functionality for it to qualify for a sticker one puts on the windshield (automatic ticket if law enforcement stops you with one out of date). In California, one has to get a smog inspection every so often to qualify for the sticker on the license plate to indicate one has paid one's vehicle tax for the year (automatic ticket if stopped by law enforcement with expired sticker).
Here in Idaho traditional ICE vehicles need emissions testing every few years after a certain age, but hybrids, PHEV’s and BEV’s are exempt. No other inspection required to renew your tags every year.
The smog inspections were every three years? As long as your engine light is not on you didn't need any "servicing".
I was not aware that Texas was that way.
I was not aware that Texas was that way.
They measure exhaust fumes with a special nozzle that fits over your exhaust pipe(s) while your vehicle is idling and I think with a dynometer(it's been a while for me) and there is a maximum output of various gases. If your vehicle is over the limit, it must be fixed to be below the maximum before one is eligible for a passing certificate which is sent electronically to the Department of Motor Vehicles.
I haven't lived in Texas in 20+ years but I remember the annual sticker visits at gas stations, they would check that the head lights worked and were pointed at the correct direction for the height of the lamp, that your windshield wasn't cracked in your field of view, the using the brakes turned on the brake lights, and other things, if your vehicle failed any of the checks you were required to fix them and get re-inspected and pass the entire suite of tests before one got the inspection sticker.
I haven't lived in Texas in 20+ years but I remember the annual sticker visits at gas stations, they would check that the head lights worked and were pointed at the correct direction for the height of the lamp, that your windshield wasn't cracked in your field of view, the using the brakes turned on the brake lights, and other things, if your vehicle failed any of the checks you were required to fix them and get re-inspected and pass the entire suite of tests before one got the inspection sticker.
In many parts of the USA there are no required inspections of any kind.
30 years ago, quit using Jiffy Lube after the tech (1) took out a plug to check manual trans fluid, (2) discovered it was not the right one, and (3) jammed it back in the best he could.
At least I got a free transmission rebuild out of it, but walking (or bus :\ ) to work for 2 weeks was not exciting.
At least I got a free transmission rebuild out of it, but walking (or bus :\ ) to work for 2 weeks was not exciting.
I’m hard pressed to imagine a situation where I’d take my car to a jiffy lube place, strongly prefer my own 3rd party mechanic that I trust (I live in the US)
Privacy reasons? All the privacy concerns are going into both types of cars.
I purchased a Model X Plaid recently and was pleasantly surprised that it only cost me $8 to drive around during my first month of ownership. Much better than the $500 I was spending on gas a month to drive my RAM 2500 around. I have solar panels, otherwise, it would have been around $45 last month, according to Tesla’s app.
It has helped that EVs are perceived as high performance, and sometimes luxury vehicles. That wasn't the case for most hybrids.
What are the main obstacle to cheap EV?
Today's car are heavy as hell compared to cars made 30 years ago. Is it possible to make cars that are build on a much lighter base, but that use a heavier/cheaper battery (sodium based?)
Today's car are heavy as hell compared to cars made 30 years ago. Is it possible to make cars that are build on a much lighter base, but that use a heavier/cheaper battery (sodium based?)
Yeah, its called an ebike. When you are using a vehicle as large as an electric car to run your errands, probably 95% of the energy is spent just to move the vehicle around, not you or your groceries but just the vehicle to A and B. With a 50 lb ebike and a few panniers running those groceries versus a 5000lb ev, you are doing the same work but a lot more of the energy spent is going to the actual work, moving you and your groceries, rather than the vehicle.
Now if you consider the length of it, things aren't any better. The next time you are in gridlocked traffic, look at the cars around you. Imagine the cars just disappeared and everyone was standing in the road. It's obviously pretty inefficient to wait in line with 20-30 foot gaps between the person in front of you and 10-15 foot gaps with the person beside you, but thats what rush hour is in cars.
Now if you consider the length of it, things aren't any better. The next time you are in gridlocked traffic, look at the cars around you. Imagine the cars just disappeared and everyone was standing in the road. It's obviously pretty inefficient to wait in line with 20-30 foot gaps between the person in front of you and 10-15 foot gaps with the person beside you, but thats what rush hour is in cars.
I live in the woods, I have a good ebike, and I've used it about a month as my main vehicle last December. But first, I fell off and ruined my knee, and second, I can't spend 60 minutes to get to the first grocery store.
There are plenty of options for slow electric transportation. I need a car that can do 60mph.
There are plenty of options for slow electric transportation. I need a car that can do 60mph.
I currently have a Toyota hybrid that is slowly reverting to an ICE-only after 8 years of ownership. Unless there's some mechanism in place to prolong the life of electric cars beyond the limits of their battery, I can see there'll be a lot of holdouts (young people, less well off etc.).
Regulation in the big markets such as the US and Europe to enforce a cost-effective approach to battery replacement seems essential to me. Otherwise, design will go the way of ever slimmer phones.
Regulation in the big markets such as the US and Europe to enforce a cost-effective approach to battery replacement seems essential to me. Otherwise, design will go the way of ever slimmer phones.
Perhaps something has happened to your battery or the charging equipment. My 2006 Prius still gets great fuel economy. I'd get Toyota to check it.
A taxi driver in Vancouver had a 2004 Prius and drove 1 million kilometres only changing tires, bulbs and wipers and it was still going when Toyota bought it back from him and shipped it to Japan to study it.
A taxi driver in Vancouver had a 2004 Prius and drove 1 million kilometres only changing tires, bulbs and wipers and it was still going when Toyota bought it back from him and shipped it to Japan to study it.
> I currently have a Toyota hybrid that is slowly reverting to an ICE-only after 8 years of ownership.
How do you detect when its doing that? My Prius is 14 years old and I think the hybrid still works. It does switch off the engine still at low speeds. Maybe it is isn't doing as well these days, but still seems good enough to keep for me.
How do you detect when its doing that? My Prius is 14 years old and I think the hybrid still works. It does switch off the engine still at low speeds. Maybe it is isn't doing as well these days, but still seems good enough to keep for me.
Loading our power infrastructure with the needs of tens of millions of cars which now rely on gasoline/diesel but which, in the future, will need electric power in order to function is downright criminal in this current geo-political climate.
First, we don't even have the resources to provide electric power at decent prices as things are right now, that's why your nice 70-year lady living with her 2 cats in a house in Cornwall or something like that will see her power invoice multiply by a factor of 3 or 4 at least, thinking that bringing in even more demand for power will improve things when it comes to price is, I repeat, criminal (that old lady presumably needs power in order to heat herself during the winter, making that power exponentially more expensive won't help with that).
Second, we don't have the infrastructure. Maybe if we'll invest trillions of dollars and euros we'll be able to connect the new nuclear plants and solar farms to the main grid and transport the new extra power between big population centers, but at the "last mile" stage things are awful, for example I'm 99% sure my apartments building cannot handle one in two apartments (let's say) charging their cars at night, especially during the summer, the thing will just catch fire.
First, we don't even have the resources to provide electric power at decent prices as things are right now, that's why your nice 70-year lady living with her 2 cats in a house in Cornwall or something like that will see her power invoice multiply by a factor of 3 or 4 at least, thinking that bringing in even more demand for power will improve things when it comes to price is, I repeat, criminal (that old lady presumably needs power in order to heat herself during the winter, making that power exponentially more expensive won't help with that).
Second, we don't have the infrastructure. Maybe if we'll invest trillions of dollars and euros we'll be able to connect the new nuclear plants and solar farms to the main grid and transport the new extra power between big population centers, but at the "last mile" stage things are awful, for example I'm 99% sure my apartments building cannot handle one in two apartments (let's say) charging their cars at night, especially during the summer, the thing will just catch fire.
Why are you so sure? Don't your Appartment not use any oven or hair dryer or dryer at all?
At minimum you can easily charge a car with 1.5kwh. that's less than a oven which might just eat 5-6 kWh while baking stuff.
It might need a little bit of smart charging, given, but we know how to build this.
In Germany it's expected that ev add 10% to the current energy consumption.
It's btw more efficient to burn the gas for energy in highly efficient big power plants were it's also much easier to filter the shit out and then using electronic engines (EVs) just because engines are that inefficient.
And in worst case we will still be able to have ice were it is really not doable until it is.
At minimum you can easily charge a car with 1.5kwh. that's less than a oven which might just eat 5-6 kWh while baking stuff.
It might need a little bit of smart charging, given, but we know how to build this.
In Germany it's expected that ev add 10% to the current energy consumption.
It's btw more efficient to burn the gas for energy in highly efficient big power plants were it's also much easier to filter the shit out and then using electronic engines (EVs) just because engines are that inefficient.
And in worst case we will still be able to have ice were it is really not doable until it is.
Sounds like you're in the UK.
It does feel like we're going to have at least 5 years of pain during this transition.
It also feels like the market isn't truly fair on price making the pain hurt more. Sure it's legal to rake in record profit but it's not ethical.
But I'm in the U.S. and finally have some slight optimism on climate future for first time in my adult life.
The climate bill provides incentives, credits, straight up money for all sides of this chain.
From raw materials -> clean energy capacity/manufacturing -> EV, charger, & battery production -> and finally the consumer EVs but also energy savings in upgrades & new construction.
~400b depending how you add it up.
Not enough. But not nothing.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/28/climate/biden-climate-dea...
It does feel like we're going to have at least 5 years of pain during this transition.
It also feels like the market isn't truly fair on price making the pain hurt more. Sure it's legal to rake in record profit but it's not ethical.
But I'm in the U.S. and finally have some slight optimism on climate future for first time in my adult life.
The climate bill provides incentives, credits, straight up money for all sides of this chain.
From raw materials -> clean energy capacity/manufacturing -> EV, charger, & battery production -> and finally the consumer EVs but also energy savings in upgrades & new construction.
~400b depending how you add it up.
Not enough. But not nothing.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/28/climate/biden-climate-dea...
> Second, we don't have the infrastructure.
UK electricity generation peaked around 2008 or so and is currently ~20% below that level.
There's ample infrastructure in place to send all this power around.
UK electricity generation peaked around 2008 or so and is currently ~20% below that level.
There's ample infrastructure in place to send all this power around.
Well the only alternative is “stop using cars” which I don’t see America agreeing to. I think we’ll have to pay.
How much electricity does an oil refinery require to create 1 litre of petrol?
EVs are currently more expensive to operate in europe than gasoline powered vehicles due to out of control inflation and geo political supply issues
Really? In the UK it's still better to run an EV, and I thought they were the hardest hit at the moment?
Here's a recently updated article that suggests it's still a good deal: https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-111...
Here's a recently updated article that suggests it's still a good deal: https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-111...
7.5p/KWh between 00:30 and 04:30 on Octopus Go [1]. Kia Niro EV has an efficiency of 276Wh/mile [2]. That's 2.72p/mile.
Latest petrol price averages £1.6933/litre [3]. That makes an ICE car cheaper only if it can acheive 280mpg. ( (169.33/2.72) * 4.5 ). My Prius averages 55mpg. That makes my Prius 5 times as expensive to run as an EV right now.
1. https://octopus.energy/go/
2. https://ev-database.uk/car/1666/Kia-Niro-EV
3. https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/fuel-watch/
Latest petrol price averages £1.6933/litre [3]. That makes an ICE car cheaper only if it can acheive 280mpg. ( (169.33/2.72) * 4.5 ). My Prius averages 55mpg. That makes my Prius 5 times as expensive to run as an EV right now.
1. https://octopus.energy/go/
2. https://ev-database.uk/car/1666/Kia-Niro-EV
3. https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/fuel-watch/
We're headed for that everywhere, I think. I'm currently deciding between a MachE and a RAV4 Prime. The price premium for the Ford is so acute that there is no way it'll ever be cheaper TCO than the Toyota. PHEVs are looking very attractive right now.
>EVs are currently more expensive to operate in europe than gasoline powered vehicles
Source?
Source?
my current car cost $2000. my wife’s car is the cross country trip car. no room for an EV here yet but it’ll be attractive when they are readily available used and proven reliable at 15+ years old.
article title doesn't say "ever" predicted. subtle hyperbole
Electric miles driven is a slightly more important metric and should be weighted towards early adopters, since delivery vans and long commutes earn back the upfront cost faster.
The classic car that only gets driven on summer weekends isn't worth as much as a USPS van in terms of carbon and urban pollution reduction.
The classic car that only gets driven on summer weekends isn't worth as much as a USPS van in terms of carbon and urban pollution reduction.
Sorry for the "website detail" rant, but for the main chart in that article that shows percentage market share of different types of vehicles - was there a big discount on green ink or something? Why use ever-so-close shades of the same color that make it much harder to actually read the chart?
I didn't get into the data just scanned the article but her main point is it looks good because their own projections for 2030 have increased over the years since their original projection in 2008? And we still have 8 years to go? Little or no discussion of actual data? Weird.
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…because they’re way, way better in just about every way imaginable. The only upside to a gas car is that they’re slightly cheaper up front (in exchange for massively higher operating costs).
Apparently, "happen" is the word in the <title> tag even though "happening" is what it says at the top of the page. We should update the title here IMO.
"Many of us don’t need detailed analysis to understand this. We can see it on our neighborhood streets"
I live in an apartment complex. Zero EVs. I suppose you are correct; I never considered myself as part of the "Many of us" moniker.
I live in an apartment complex. Zero EVs. I suppose you are correct; I never considered myself as part of the "Many of us" moniker.
In countries and US states taking the fate of humanity seriously they are either preparing to fund or have already funded public/semi-public EV charging infrastructure upgrades.
However, with a little planning it is possible to own an EV even if you live in an apartment where there is no charging infrastructure.
The average American drives 39 (let's call it 40) miles per day. The Hyundai Ioniq 5 has a 303 (let's call it 300) mile range.
That's 7.5 days of driving on a full battery, but most people will get freaked out about having a low battery (despite driving around with their gas light on) so you just have to spend 15-45 minutes every 4 days at a DC fast charger and you'll never have a battery below 50%.
Going out? Go out somewhere with a DC fast charger. There are tens of thousands of them and that number has been increasing by about 25% per year for the last two years.
So EVs in an apartment is a pain in the ass but manageable.
In a couple of years apartments are going encountering friction while attracting renters, destinations will have friction attracting visitors, and offices will have friction attracting employees unless there are accessible charging options so I suspect the public EV charging situation will improve rapidly.
However, with a little planning it is possible to own an EV even if you live in an apartment where there is no charging infrastructure.
The average American drives 39 (let's call it 40) miles per day. The Hyundai Ioniq 5 has a 303 (let's call it 300) mile range.
That's 7.5 days of driving on a full battery, but most people will get freaked out about having a low battery (despite driving around with their gas light on) so you just have to spend 15-45 minutes every 4 days at a DC fast charger and you'll never have a battery below 50%.
Going out? Go out somewhere with a DC fast charger. There are tens of thousands of them and that number has been increasing by about 25% per year for the last two years.
So EVs in an apartment is a pain in the ass but manageable.
In a couple of years apartments are going encountering friction while attracting renters, destinations will have friction attracting visitors, and offices will have friction attracting employees unless there are accessible charging options so I suspect the public EV charging situation will improve rapidly.
> In countries and US states taking the fate of humanity seriously
You mean places that discourage cars of all types and encourage mass transit, walking and biking?
You mean places that discourage cars of all types and encourage mass transit, walking and biking?
70% of Americans live in houses. Not apartments or condos.
The idea that EVs can't charge in an apartment complex is a false assumption. It depends. I know we overlooked some options for a while before discovering we were mistaken and actually could charge. Many others could be making the same mistaken assumptions.
If you’re living in an outer burb, maybe. In wealthier neighbourhoods and closer to city centres Teslas and to a lesser extent other EVs are everywhere.
I would love to use EV - it is simpler, more torque etc. But where do we get all this additional electricity from, mostly burning carbon?
Solar, wind, carbon burning, nuclear, hydro… a mix. Petro fuel burning won't go away, it will just be a smaller part of the mix.
And there's plenty of capacity at night. And there are batteries, which we can charge with for example solar in the daytime, and then use at night.
Rooftop solar is great because it's near the point of use. All the people wringing their hands about the grid can rest easy, it will be fine. Sure in some climate solar is less available; see above… it can be a mix as appropriate for the place.
And there's plenty of capacity at night. And there are batteries, which we can charge with for example solar in the daytime, and then use at night.
Rooftop solar is great because it's near the point of use. All the people wringing their hands about the grid can rest easy, it will be fine. Sure in some climate solar is less available; see above… it can be a mix as appropriate for the place.
According to [1] in 2019 61% of the world electricity is produced burning coal and oil. I don't see a reason why this proportion would change to fullfill EV caused demand increase. I'm afraid that even worse - sweeping demand increase will be fullfilled the easiest way - burning oil and gas. Hydro and nuclear are slow to build. Solar... I don't know what is wrong with it but taking into account that it is a lot cheaper to extract (comparing to oil and gas) it is still just 3%.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_generation
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_generation
> I don't see a reason why this proportion would change
ok, but others do.
The current landscape is just that, current. We can build new stuff. I agree there are challenges with speed and scale though. I don’t think they are completely insurmountable.
ok, but others do.
The current landscape is just that, current. We can build new stuff. I agree there are challenges with speed and scale though. I don’t think they are completely insurmountable.
Mostly solar. Solar panels have gotten a lot cheaper in recent years and are the most economical new power generation to build.
See my comment above.
+ning
Won't electric car have bad resell value given battery cost an arm to replace
No. Nowadays, EV don't need battery replacement. Degradation is negligible for the current fleet:
Bullshit. https://www.geotab.com/fleet-management-solutions/ev-battery...
And these are for 10-year old EV. Battery packs made today won't have to be replace after 15 years, and they'll certainly be used as stationary storage past their time on wheels.
More importantly, most EV will switch to LFP chemistry (already more than half Tesla's vehicles production), which degrades even less.
-https://www.geotab.com/fleet-management-solutions/ev-battery...
- https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-dat...
- https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2021-tesla-impact-report.pdf (p. 67) for Tesla S/X fleet wide results.
And this is for nickel-based batteries. Most EVs will be LFP in the foreseeable future, and they degrade far less. We'll certainly use the battery as long as they car can drive, and then, it will be added to the grid for stationary applications. Then, it will be sold and recycled.
More from the International Energy Agency latest report on EV/batteries: https://iea.blob.core.windows.net/assets/e0d2081d-487d-4818-...
Bullshit. https://www.geotab.com/fleet-management-solutions/ev-battery...
And these are for 10-year old EV. Battery packs made today won't have to be replace after 15 years, and they'll certainly be used as stationary storage past their time on wheels.
More importantly, most EV will switch to LFP chemistry (already more than half Tesla's vehicles production), which degrades even less.
-https://www.geotab.com/fleet-management-solutions/ev-battery...
- https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-dat...
- https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2021-tesla-impact-report.pdf (p. 67) for Tesla S/X fleet wide results.
And this is for nickel-based batteries. Most EVs will be LFP in the foreseeable future, and they degrade far less. We'll certainly use the battery as long as they car can drive, and then, it will be added to the grid for stationary applications. Then, it will be sold and recycled.
More from the International Energy Agency latest report on EV/batteries: https://iea.blob.core.windows.net/assets/e0d2081d-487d-4818-...
i'm used to buying a car for X use it for 7 years and then sell it back for 1..2k less. Let say i buy a used electric card with 80k miles on it, and use it for 7 years, and have put 150k miles, now wont I have trouble selling it?
I think you're over-estimating how common it will be to need a battery replacement in an EV. Car batteries don't generally "go bad". They instead get "smaller" over time, but not drastically so.
It remains to be seen if modern EV batteries will need to be replaced before all the rest of the car.
It remains to be seen if modern EV batteries will need to be replaced before all the rest of the car.
Depends on the brand features (like actual/real versus promised/non-built out supercharger network for example).
Battery longevity is rapidly approaching the life of the car. 5% drop in 100,000 miles.
Cool. Now build bus stops, so I don't need one.
That being said I wish someone would make an enclosed bicycle/motorcycle that costs less than $2000. Something like that which can go 30mph and had space for 2 days of groceries would be enough for me to eliminate my car all together.
I'm cobbling something similar now with a Class 3 cargo ebike, but rain sucks =/
The idealist in me says that electric ebikes could eliminate most of Americas problems in one swoop:
- Pedal assisted ebikes result in exercise. America is up there in obesity.
- America is also up there in cardiovascular unhealthiness.
- Americans have an average distance of 15 miles to work. 30mph + 60 mile range would allow you to comfortably get to work in approximately 30 minutes and give you enough juice to do it round trip, twice.
- Lower speeds result in fewer accident fatalities. America is up there in the number of road deaths. Lower speeds and smaller vehicles would lower this.
- Bike infrastructure can be used for walking. Walking is good. This promotes accessibility for a large range of people, notably children and elders.
- Bikes require less space to park, a lot less. This extra space can be used to build more housing. This additional housing will increase density, making bikes only more viable (compared to being in traffic in a car).
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EVs are better than ICE, certainly. But I fear it will exacerbate some of our problems.
- The CapEx for EVs will discourage walking infrastructure.
- EVs can accelerate faster, much faster. I fear this will result in more accidents.
- EVs are much heavier than their equivalent ICE vehicles. Hopefully this doesn't result in EV accidents being more likely to have a fatality.
Ideally we'd just begin to phase out cars ideally, as opposed to transition to EVs from ICE, but I suppose baby steps are warranted here.