The Animal Is Tired(robinhobb.com)
robinhobb.com
The Animal Is Tired
http://www.robinhobb.com/blog/posts/38429
438 comments
Aw man, I just started a comment saying how this sounds really promising and was going to ask about it. Turns out I have actually read them. I might have to read them all again. I would recommend them as well.
I'm a big fan of the Malazan series as well. I still think of the hair jacket when I come across someone with a smelly jacket and it never fails to crack me up.
My recommendation for epic fantasy that is a bit different and unexpected: The Dark Tower series by Stephen King. Some very powerful stories in there. The first book is pretty short so it is a good way to try it out. Though I think it hooks from the very start.
I'm a big fan of the Malazan series as well. I still think of the hair jacket when I come across someone with a smelly jacket and it never fails to crack me up.
My recommendation for epic fantasy that is a bit different and unexpected: The Dark Tower series by Stephen King. Some very powerful stories in there. The first book is pretty short so it is a good way to try it out. Though I think it hooks from the very start.
Brandon Sanderson is my go to recommendation for fantasy nowadays. Mistborn is a great place to start but The Way of Kings is the real meat and potatoes. He also links all these books together in the same universe and it's fun to notice the connections.
I haven't heard of these, thanks for the recommendation! According to Wikipedia he hasn't finished writing them yet. Is it worth reading them already or does it feel unfinished?
It's not clear from a quick glance, Mistborn and The Way of Kings take place in the same universe?
It's not clear from a quick glance, Mistborn and The Way of Kings take place in the same universe?
Same universe -- the Cosmere. But we really are talking about "universe" here. Different planets (galaxies?) that know nothing about each other, just happen to share some laws of nature (and some mysterious characters that seem to travel around). I don't even pick up on most of the connections without having them pointed out to me.
Stormlight Archive is 10 books in two 5 book arcs. 4th book is out now, 5th book will be out in 3 years. So probably a decent time to get into Stormlight. (Sanderson makes a schedule for each of his projects and has an incredible talent for hitting his targets.)
Stormlight Archive is 10 books in two 5 book arcs. 4th book is out now, 5th book will be out in 3 years. So probably a decent time to get into Stormlight. (Sanderson makes a schedule for each of his projects and has an incredible talent for hitting his targets.)
Different solar systems. And they definitely know about each other. Or at least, there are factions and individuals present in each system who do.
I'd say it's worth it to start now. Sanderson is writing at a blistering pace right now and doesn't seem to be slowing down.
Mistborn and Way of Kings are in the same universe but separate worlds. I don't want to spoil too much but there is some crossover involved.
Mistborn and Way of Kings are in the same universe but separate worlds. I don't want to spoil too much but there is some crossover involved.
Makes sense, thanks! I appreciate the non-spoiler. These days I don't even read the description on the back of books anymore to try and experience it openly. It just makes it a bit hard to work out where to start sometimes.
>Is it worth reading them already or does it feel unfinished?
Mistborn is a complete trilogy although he continues to publish other novels set in the same world.
Way of Kings is ongoing. It's on book four now. Each book is over a thousand pages so there's a lot there. I don't think it's a problem to start. Books 1-3 are great and stand alone pretty well. It's started to drag with book 4 in my opinion. Like so many other huge epic fantasies, it has too many characters, too many plotlines, too huge of a world, and it's difficult to maintain the epic feel with all that sprawl. I'm worried for book 5.
> Mistborn and The Way of Kings take place in the same universe?
They take place in the same universe (literally) but they are on different worlds. So they don't have anything (much?) to do with each other (yet?)
Mistborn is a complete trilogy although he continues to publish other novels set in the same world.
Way of Kings is ongoing. It's on book four now. Each book is over a thousand pages so there's a lot there. I don't think it's a problem to start. Books 1-3 are great and stand alone pretty well. It's started to drag with book 4 in my opinion. Like so many other huge epic fantasies, it has too many characters, too many plotlines, too huge of a world, and it's difficult to maintain the epic feel with all that sprawl. I'm worried for book 5.
> Mistborn and The Way of Kings take place in the same universe?
They take place in the same universe (literally) but they are on different worlds. So they don't have anything (much?) to do with each other (yet?)
Thanks for the details! Mistborn is going on my list to read next.
There's another Sanderson Cosmere book called Warbreaker which crosses over with Stormlight pretty heavily from book 2 onwards (it's also very possibly there are references in book 1 which totally passed me by). You'll definitely have a better handle on why a particular object which shows up in the Stormlight books is so scary if you read Warbreaker first.
Book 4 of Stormlight does have some pretty big references to the original Mistborn trilogy, too.
On the whole I try to read books in the order I bought them (ish), but Sanderson is one of the authors I'll just drop everything for when a new book comes out. Disclaimer: he does have some bad habits (mainly inserting "wise ass" characters who don't fit the tone or setting, and who I strongly suspect carry the author's voice a little _too_ directly). But he does epic world building incredibly well, and very different to just about any other author I've read. He also writes action exceptionally well.
Book 4 of Stormlight does have some pretty big references to the original Mistborn trilogy, too.
On the whole I try to read books in the order I bought them (ish), but Sanderson is one of the authors I'll just drop everything for when a new book comes out. Disclaimer: he does have some bad habits (mainly inserting "wise ass" characters who don't fit the tone or setting, and who I strongly suspect carry the author's voice a little _too_ directly). But he does epic world building incredibly well, and very different to just about any other author I've read. He also writes action exceptionally well.
Warbreaker is a very amateurish effort though - I think a lot of people would bounce off it. I'd definitely suggest starting with Way of Kings, if that grabs a new reader then they can delve into the Cosmere before continuing on to Words of Radiance.
His first book Elantris is also very good and well worth your time. A good starting point for his work and a self-contained novel (although he had mentioned writing two more Elantris books in the distant future).
I see, noted as well. Thanks!
The Emperor's Soul is set on the same world as Elantris, though is more or less completely unconnected to it.
FYI - Robin Hobb is a lady.
Since GP is talking about Elantris it's safe to say the "he" in this case is Brandon Sanderson and not Robin Hobb.
I'm reading Rhythm of War (Stormlight Archive Book 4) just now, and am really enjoying the Stormlight series - the "split personality" of Shallan is really interesting, and I'm enjoying Shadesmar much more than I did in Oathbringer.
A friend of mine once joked about hacker news that "if you mention any author, within three comments someone will recommend a Sanderson book."
I appreciated the joke without taking it too literally. But here we are.
I appreciated the joke without taking it too literally. But here we are.
That happens on /r/books too. They're also obsessed with Stephen King, so I've just assumed Sanderson is also an airport novel writer.
I don't know what 'airport novel writer' means, but Sanderson comes up with some really inventive worlds and the magic in his fantasy setting has a high degree of internal consistency that really resonates with some people. His writing is also approachable in the sense that it isn't full of references to other books that are required reading in order to understand a passage. If you've got a working knowledge of the english language and maybe a dictionary you can approach the story on its own merits.
Yeah "high degree of internal consistency" and "approachable" are things I want in a test suite not a novel.
At the risk of being downvoted I don't find Brandon Sanderson a very good fantasy writer. For me, The way of kings started well (even if the characters were all pretty 2-D) in book one. Interesting plot with it mixing ww1/dune computer game themes in a fantasy setting. But by book 3 it was an incredible chore to get through and I stopped after about 10% in. I even got bored reading the plot summary of the third book. I guess it wasnt dark enough for me. But I know other like it.
The king killer chronicles however. e.g. The name of the wind. I really like this book series.
The king killer chronicles however. e.g. The name of the wind. I really like this book series.
Too bad you will never see the end of The King Killer Chronicles. It has been something like 10 years since the last book. Rothfuss is in the exact same situation as Martin for me. I won't buy any books of his until the series is complete.
You may not like Sanderson's writing, but the man publishes books. He will get my money for anything he writes because I know I'm going to enjoy it (personally, I really enjoy his books) and I know he's going to complete what he starts.
You may not like Sanderson's writing, but the man publishes books. He will get my money for anything he writes because I know I'm going to enjoy it (personally, I really enjoy his books) and I know he's going to complete what he starts.
I absolutely inhaled the first two books by Rothfuss, couldn't put 'em down, this was last year. Then I read up on when the last book would come out, and saw it had been over 10 years between the 2nd book coming out and present day.
Then I started reading about Patrick Rothfuss. I don't think I'll ever read the 3rd book if he ever does actually write it. Yes write, all indications are he hasn't written a page. I have lost whatever respect I have had for the guy. If he has a legitimate reason as to why he has kept his "fans" waiting for over a decade, he should say it. This reasoning is bullshit. [1] I would 100% understand if he said something like "I'm under a lot of pressure and I have anxiety and writers block" or something to that effect. Nope, he just completely checked out.
Maybe I'll read the Wikipedia summary if it ever exists.
[1] https://winteriscoming.net/2020/12/04/patrick-rothfuss-expla...
Then I started reading about Patrick Rothfuss. I don't think I'll ever read the 3rd book if he ever does actually write it. Yes write, all indications are he hasn't written a page. I have lost whatever respect I have had for the guy. If he has a legitimate reason as to why he has kept his "fans" waiting for over a decade, he should say it. This reasoning is bullshit. [1] I would 100% understand if he said something like "I'm under a lot of pressure and I have anxiety and writers block" or something to that effect. Nope, he just completely checked out.
Maybe I'll read the Wikipedia summary if it ever exists.
[1] https://winteriscoming.net/2020/12/04/patrick-rothfuss-expla...
The books are absolutely jam-packed with detail, foreshadowing, reference and masterful writing (have you noticed Felurian speaks in Iambic pentameter?). I think he has just written himself into a combinatorial explosion of a corner.
Kingkiller is like the Lost of epic fantasy: at first you're drawn in by all the detail and mystique, but later you realize that he's just making it up as he goes. It's super easy to open compelling and interesting threads (e.g. what is the smoke monster and who are the Chandrian) but its much, much harder to close them.
Maybe he has the exact issues you mentioned but doesnt want to release that information into the world. Despite you saying you would understand many wouldnt.
Does the man owe you anything?
Does the man owe you anything?
Yes, I believe he does in fact owe his readership something. Me? No. I'm not longer part of that group.
What? What does someone who created something you enjoyed and then stopped creating more of that thing owe anyone? An explanation?
Fans have invested in a story. They started a book, got a second book, got a couple short stories and promises of a 3rd book. No 3rd book has arrived to complete the story.
If he had said "sorry, no book 3, it's just done now" years ago, or even now, then that changes expectations. But if he's just going to avoid it all then ya, that's kind of a bad thing to do to your fans.
If he had said "sorry, no book 3, it's just done now" years ago, or even now, then that changes expectations. But if he's just going to avoid it all then ya, that's kind of a bad thing to do to your fans.
He has been stringing his fans along for over a decade. It is rude and cruel. It would be like teasing a puppy with a treat but never giving it to them. For 10 years. That is what he has done. His editor disagrees with me [1] but makes an equally strong point.
[1] https://i.redd.it/4g1jexk7i9e51.jpg
[1] https://i.redd.it/4g1jexk7i9e51.jpg
I guess if grown adults are akin to puppies for you in this situation and the writer is cruel and rude for not writing another book then we see things too differently to agree in any meaningful way.
https://winteriscoming.net/2021/05/12/kingkiller-author-patr...
I rest my case. He's a jackass.
I rest my case. He's a jackass.
I’ve just been assuming that Sanderson will step up to finish those series when the original authors pass.
It's a good joke. Unfortunately Sanderson's writing style is really incompatible with Rothfuss and Martin's. Also, he has his own epic series that will occupy him for another 20 years.
Unfortunately, I agree with you. The stone door I've almost given up on.
And I was reading GOT way before it became famous on TV. Again stopped expecting a new book.
He's passed away now. But I did quite like the British fantasy writer David Gemell. He knocked out books too. His books are violent and personally I like dark and gritty.
Check out Mark Lawrence if you like dark and gritty. He's pretty good at knocking out books as well.
Also, you've probably heard of it already but The First Law series by Joe Abercrombie
Also, you've probably heard of it already but The First Law series by Joe Abercrombie
"Personally I like dark and gritty."
On the offchance you haven't given Joe Abercrombie a try, you really ought to.
I read "He's passed away now" and associated it with Martin. Your full-stop almost made me lose my shit.
I like Sanderson, I really do, but I wish he would aim for a bit more brevity. He has a really interesting story to tell, and built an incredibly creative world, but it's like he gets distracted by all the other stories he would like to tell. Just like Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, Way of Kings seems to get slower with each book as more subplots are developed and explored.
But I think my biggest complaint about Way of Kings is that the characters often make such frustrating decisions. The fate of the world is at stake and people are petty, self-absorbed, secretive, and sullen. Maybe that's reality, but it's so frustrating to read sub-plots that drag out for hundreds of pages simply because people won't communicate.
I miss, to some degree, books like King's Gunslinger and Moorcock's Elric, that could tell a story in ~200 pages. Or even the TSR pulp fantasy books of the 80's which all seemed to be 300-400 pages. Now everything is super-sized, but I don't feel like I'm getting more "story", I'm getting in-depth descriptions of clothing and internal monologues on what to cook for dinner.
Despite that critique, I still recommend Way of Kings (and Wheel of Time!). Just flip through the filler.
But I think my biggest complaint about Way of Kings is that the characters often make such frustrating decisions. The fate of the world is at stake and people are petty, self-absorbed, secretive, and sullen. Maybe that's reality, but it's so frustrating to read sub-plots that drag out for hundreds of pages simply because people won't communicate.
I miss, to some degree, books like King's Gunslinger and Moorcock's Elric, that could tell a story in ~200 pages. Or even the TSR pulp fantasy books of the 80's which all seemed to be 300-400 pages. Now everything is super-sized, but I don't feel like I'm getting more "story", I'm getting in-depth descriptions of clothing and internal monologues on what to cook for dinner.
Despite that critique, I still recommend Way of Kings (and Wheel of Time!). Just flip through the filler.
> Just like Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, Way of Kings seems to get slower with each book as more subplots are developed and explored.
Heh, now that's ironic, knowing what happened to the WoT: Jordan[1] died before he could finish it, and years later another author stepped in and finished it based on Jordan's notes. That other author was... Brandon Sanderson. So one would think he'd know the dangers of creating too big a sprawl.
(Also: Take heed, GRRM!)
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[1]: Actually Oliver Rigney, IIRC.
Heh, now that's ironic, knowing what happened to the WoT: Jordan[1] died before he could finish it, and years later another author stepped in and finished it based on Jordan's notes. That other author was... Brandon Sanderson. So one would think he'd know the dangers of creating too big a sprawl.
(Also: Take heed, GRRM!)
___
[1]: Actually Oliver Rigney, IIRC.
> my biggest complaint about Way of Kings is that the characters often make such frustrating decisions
I find the decisions are often not predictable, which I think for some can be a turnoff because things don't go the way you expect/want them to. I find this a strength.
I find the decisions are often not predictable, which I think for some can be a turnoff because things don't go the way you expect/want them to. I find this a strength.
Moorcook's Eldrich... Wait! I read Hawkmoon years ago by him and liked it. A light breezy read.
I'll get this. Cheers
Totally agree. I love his lectures on writing which you can find on YouTube. He's a great teacher with excellent content. But great teachers aren't always the best writers.
I decided to try the Mistborn trilogy. The first book was great - a nice tight and satisfying story. But the second and third books got progressively messier and I found myself totally disconnected and eventually just slogging through to the end. I wish I would have stopped after the first book.
Sanderson admits loving to write write write and hating to rewrite and edit, which I think really showed in the latter books of the trilogy.
I decided to try the Mistborn trilogy. The first book was great - a nice tight and satisfying story. But the second and third books got progressively messier and I found myself totally disconnected and eventually just slogging through to the end. I wish I would have stopped after the first book.
Sanderson admits loving to write write write and hating to rewrite and edit, which I think really showed in the latter books of the trilogy.
I had the same reaction to the Mistborn books, and my interpretation is that Sanderson really struggles when the plot and characters get "wide". The first book was tight and focused; when the characters graduated to a larger stage everything - from the characters to the world to the plot - ended up "flat" and unrealistic. It's like he has a set budget for any given work, and the wider the focus the less of that budget any individual piece gets.
Which is a shame, because some of his work really is excellent.
Which is a shame, because some of his work really is excellent.
I was gifted a copy of Mistborn by Sanderson and I've been having trouble reading. The first handful of chapters dragged for me, so I put it down in favor or something else. I think you point about flat characters is what did it for me; I believe good characters can carry a mediocre story, but a story has to be really exceptional to carry a narrative with uninteresting characters.
I am hoping to give it another shot this summer, but I can't exactly say I am looking forward to it.
I am hoping to give it another shot this summer, but I can't exactly say I am looking forward to it.
I don't know if it's that Sanderson is a bad writer; I think it's more that he's a bad editor. He is so prolific that he doesn't take the time to cut his books down to the length they should be, which is probably about half the length.
Every single novel I've read by him (All of mistborn, 1st 3 Way of Kings, Elantris) has egregious pacing problems. Way too much repetitive exposition that doesn't move the story along.
Arcanum Unbounded is actually pretty good, probably because it's all short stories and doesn't have time to get lost)
Every single novel I've read by him (All of mistborn, 1st 3 Way of Kings, Elantris) has egregious pacing problems. Way too much repetitive exposition that doesn't move the story along.
Arcanum Unbounded is actually pretty good, probably because it's all short stories and doesn't have time to get lost)
Sanderson got too big too fast to develop a relationship with an editor who could say "no" to him. He's built fascinating worlds and interesting characters, but his later writing is full of the kinds of tropes and flaws that an empowered editor would be pushing him hard to streamline:
- Dialogue from adults that has the emotional intelligence of a 12-year old
- Lots of telling, almost no showing. So much "X, the kind of person who takes no bullshit from anyone, says, 'hi'".
- Huge, dragging, Return-of-the-Jedi-style setpiece battles and fights that have no bearing on the plot outcome
- Plots that just repeat on a larger scale with every book in a series.
Dude needs someone who has the ability to say no to him. With the amount he writes though, I have to imagine it's basically a DDOS for anyone tasked with editing his work.
- Dialogue from adults that has the emotional intelligence of a 12-year old
- Lots of telling, almost no showing. So much "X, the kind of person who takes no bullshit from anyone, says, 'hi'".
- Huge, dragging, Return-of-the-Jedi-style setpiece battles and fights that have no bearing on the plot outcome
- Plots that just repeat on a larger scale with every book in a series.
Dude needs someone who has the ability to say no to him. With the amount he writes though, I have to imagine it's basically a DDOS for anyone tasked with editing his work.
As a lifelong video game player, I get a strong video game vibe from his works. I think he tells engaging/energetic stories, he makes some nice complex systems and worlds, but the writing isn't particularly well structured, can drag on, and has some characters who definitely seem designed to appeal to teenage boys. Which all in all I don't mind, when I'm tired sometimes I just want a nice story where I never have to read a page twice.
Well, he did a decent job ending Wheel of Time which had that problem but much worse, since it was edited by the guy's wife. Unlike RJ, Sanderson actually knows where he's going and tries to get there on schedule.
It was only decent though. I thought he made some very artificial uses of the magic system that didn't seem to fit in the world but just let him keep the series on track. Also, RJ wasn't the best at writing women but Sanderson is a total square and so the romantic/personal relationships were not really there.
Interestingly, the part of his books I liked the most was entirely original (Aviendha's future vision), and the one I thought was the worst written (Tower of Ghenjei) was an attempt to keep an RJ alpha plot that RJ probably would've abandoned.
It was only decent though. I thought he made some very artificial uses of the magic system that didn't seem to fit in the world but just let him keep the series on track. Also, RJ wasn't the best at writing women but Sanderson is a total square and so the romantic/personal relationships were not really there.
Interestingly, the part of his books I liked the most was entirely original (Aviendha's future vision), and the one I thought was the worst written (Tower of Ghenjei) was an attempt to keep an RJ alpha plot that RJ probably would've abandoned.
At least Robert Jordan could write dialogue and inter-personal relationships that don't stink of middle school.
RJ thought of himself as a "Southern gentleman" and so he had critical levels of boomer gender politics in all his dialogue, essentially 1000 pages of "I hate my wife" jokes and braid tugging. Also, not sure how many people noticed but more than a few plot points and things like Compulsion weaves in his books are clearly just his sexual fetishes.
But yes, there was a lot of depth and the women were always strong characters and seemed to be having fun, whereas Sanderson writes like he hasn't gone through puberty yet.
But yes, there was a lot of depth and the women were always strong characters and seemed to be having fun, whereas Sanderson writes like he hasn't gone through puberty yet.
I should note I'm not defending Robert Jordan's pseudo-neckbeard views on women, just his ability to write humans.
Skyward is a great light read by him, but note that it’s sci-fi, not fantasy.
Brandon Sanderson is a terrific author when he completes another author's series. He is more lyrical when he is forced to adopt another author's style. Otherwise its paint-by-numbers fantasy.
The Dark Tower is one of my favorites, probably because King doesn't feel constrained by convention or genre. And if you have read King's other works you will appreciate the connections to his universe throughout, particularly The Stand and Salem's Lot.
Like others have said, the first 2 books are particularly good. But, be warned that the second book deals with a lot of racial and sexual issues, and King does not have a filter. The fourth book is a prequel, and really stands on its own as a novel, but really threw off the rhythm of the series for me. I had a hard time getting into it because I wanted to resume the primary storyline. The ending does come with a warning, but I think it was perfect.
Like others have said, the first 2 books are particularly good. But, be warned that the second book deals with a lot of racial and sexual issues, and King does not have a filter. The fourth book is a prequel, and really stands on its own as a novel, but really threw off the rhythm of the series for me. I had a hard time getting into it because I wanted to resume the primary storyline. The ending does come with a warning, but I think it was perfect.
If we’re recommending series in general, I recommend the Broken Earth Trilogy be NK Jemisin and The Poppy War series by RF Kuang. These series have a completely different approach to fantasy as a lens of society that I really adore.
I’m also a big fan of the Daevabod Series by SA Chakraborty. That is also hella.
I’m also a big fan of the Daevabod Series by SA Chakraborty. That is also hella.
In The Dark Tower, only first two books are good. Third is decent, the rest I've read only because I'm a very stubborn person.
Very true! King disliked this series and only finished it because of fan insistence... And the ending is a middle finger to those fans!
Personal opinion I guess. I really liked the whole series, including the ending.
"The Dark Tower series by Stephen King. Some very powerful stories in there. The first book is pretty short so it is a good way to try it out. Though I think it hooks from the very start. "
I wasn't really hooked. I think it was a interesting read, but I got no motivation to read further. Might have been, because I read a note from King before, that he also did no knew yet, how the tower worked. And he just wrote freely to explore it, too. So I expected the story to have even bigger holes in the plot than his ordinary books and trouble to get the story lines together in a consistent way in the end, leaving too many logic errors.
But maybe I should give the tower a second try one day.
I wasn't really hooked. I think it was a interesting read, but I got no motivation to read further. Might have been, because I read a note from King before, that he also did no knew yet, how the tower worked. And he just wrote freely to explore it, too. So I expected the story to have even bigger holes in the plot than his ordinary books and trouble to get the story lines together in a consistent way in the end, leaving too many logic errors.
But maybe I should give the tower a second try one day.
Hmmm, if the beginning wasn't convincing then I somewhat doubt that the rest of the series is going to be a much better experience. And yeah, I don't think the tower mechanics really work out in the end. But it didn't bother me personally.
I haven't actually read any other books by him.
I haven't actually read any other books by him.
"I haven't actually read any other books by him. "
He's very good at coming up with creative plots and good storytelling - but after a while it all seems generic and kind of the same - and he is not good (or doesn't bother enough as people buy it anyway) to avoid lots of plotholes in the stories and logic gaps. Or rather to bring the story lines together in the end, he seems to use ductape.
So I enjoyed his short stories much more, as they were much more consistent, than the big, blown up "masterworks" of him.
He's very good at coming up with creative plots and good storytelling - but after a while it all seems generic and kind of the same - and he is not good (or doesn't bother enough as people buy it anyway) to avoid lots of plotholes in the stories and logic gaps. Or rather to bring the story lines together in the end, he seems to use ductape.
So I enjoyed his short stories much more, as they were much more consistent, than the big, blown up "masterworks" of him.
[deleted]
I read the first book and like you thought it was just interesting, but it was the juxtaposition of book one and two that made me go “i have to finish this”.
* not really a spoiler, it happens at the very start of book two [rot13] *
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some bits are a drag, some are so cheezy, but you just roll with it and it’s a fun ride with some amazing high points.
* not really a spoiler, it happens at the very start of book two [rot13] *
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some bits are a drag, some are so cheezy, but you just roll with it and it’s a fun ride with some amazing high points.
I'll just rot13 this and anyone who's interested will decode it in less time that it takes me to type it - why, most fellows here will just move each char thirteen to the left in their head...
I love HN
I love HN
I enjoyed the first book in that series so much that after the first time I read it I immediately started it again. But every other book in the series was a disappointment compared to that. They all seemed to fall much more into his generic style.
I need to revisit The Dark Tower, I last read it when it was incomplete and have never read it through. Very different to his more famous works. Thanks for the reminder.
Depending on where you stopped, I feel like it is gets a little bit odd in the middle but it is very much worth reading to the end.
There's also The Wind Through the Keyhole which slots inbetween the main books. Learning about this one is that made me read the whole series again only a few weeks ago. It's still as good as it ever was!
There's also The Wind Through the Keyhole which slots inbetween the main books. Learning about this one is that made me read the whole series again only a few weeks ago. It's still as good as it ever was!
Not worth reading to the end at all. King didn't even think of a proper ending, prefacing it with a suggestion to stop reading before it. The series got weaker and weaker after second book.
The series did deteriorate, but I liked book 4. It's a romance. I recommend it to all young fools, or those who can fondly remember being such.
Story of young roland is... Too formulaic. Writing romance is definitely not king's forte.
Agreed. I feel like the whole series very much appeals to young teenage me.
For people who like the character driven nature of Robin Hobb's work I'd recommend the Demon Cycle books by Peter Brett. Across the series you get to see characters from a variety of viewpoints which really fleshes them out as complete people.
I have such mixed feelings about the Demon cycle. I really like the characters and the first book is excellent. However it starts to be the same pattern for the later books and plot deteriorates rapidly as you near the end. Last two books ruined the series for me, I remember reading them during first lockdown last year and being super frustrated the way it ended.
I fell off of Dark Tower during the flashback sequence in the 4th book, but up until that point I agree it was a solid and off-putting story.
Of the last few years, the author I have enjoyed the most has undoubtedly been Joe Abercrombie, especially "The First Law".
Ooo, thanks for the reminder! I very much enjoyed those as well and should dig them out again.
Did you read any of his other books? Would you recommend them?
I was a bit disappointed with the fourth book set in the The First Law universe. Possibly it was Best Served Cold but I'm not sure. It felt more like a rehash and it was missing whatever made the first books special. And it put me off trying his other books ever since.
Did you read any of his other books? Would you recommend them?
I was a bit disappointed with the fourth book set in the The First Law universe. Possibly it was Best Served Cold but I'm not sure. It felt more like a rehash and it was missing whatever made the first books special. And it put me off trying his other books ever since.
I recently tried to introduce my son to them, but he just couldn't get into the series as it wasn't fast paced enough for him in the beginning.
Out of curiosity, and because of my praise for the series, my dad decided to give it a try...
I've never in my life seen him read anything for pleasure.
He's now >5000 pages in, just finished Fool's Fate, and is about to start The Rain Wild Chronicles (10th book in the series).
Out of curiosity, and because of my praise for the series, my dad decided to give it a try...
I've never in my life seen him read anything for pleasure.
He's now >5000 pages in, just finished Fool's Fate, and is about to start The Rain Wild Chronicles (10th book in the series).
The link isn’t loading for me right now, so I’ll just add to the appreciation for Hobb. I’m currently reading book 13 (4th in the Rain Wild Chronicles). They’re all great!
I picked up The Assassin’s Apprentice while looking for something to fill the Rothfuss void. I was instantly hooked. The tone and the pace was just right for me. I really like that they are so character-driven, deeply exploring the characters’ emotions, history, flaws, etc. And she’s great at having the plot build and build until basically everything is going wrong, and then she delivers a super satisfying ending.
I usually take a short break between each tril, but I might just go straight into her last batch after I finish this book.
I picked up The Assassin’s Apprentice while looking for something to fill the Rothfuss void. I was instantly hooked. The tone and the pace was just right for me. I really like that they are so character-driven, deeply exploring the characters’ emotions, history, flaws, etc. And she’s great at having the plot build and build until basically everything is going wrong, and then she delivers a super satisfying ending.
I usually take a short break between each tril, but I might just go straight into her last batch after I finish this book.
If there's a Robin Hobb trilogy you need a break before starting it's this one. It left me a sobbing mess on more than one occasion.
> While this is epic fantasy, it's _not_ at all grimdark. Bad things definitely happen, but it's more hopeful and humane than something like Malazan or Song of Ice and Fire.
I will always read anything recommend by a person who uses Malazan as a benchmark.
Purchasing this book right now.
I will always read anything recommend by a person who uses Malazan as a benchmark.
Purchasing this book right now.
Can't recommend her enough as well (Currently reading the last book of the third trilogy).
I didn't enjoy the first book too much, less epic scope than I was expecting and I don't like child protagonists very much.
But the writing was excellent and after a year hiatus and a streak of questionably written books (Malazan was one of them...), I picked her up again. Halfway through the second book I realized I was cheering to Kettricken charge to aid Fitz and I was hooked.
Since then each book has been better than the one before.
I didn't enjoy the first book too much, less epic scope than I was expecting and I don't like child protagonists very much.
But the writing was excellent and after a year hiatus and a streak of questionably written books (Malazan was one of them...), I picked her up again. Halfway through the second book I realized I was cheering to Kettricken charge to aid Fitz and I was hooked.
Since then each book has been better than the one before.
I concur with all of this!
The way she uses perception, perspective, and cognitive biases are, as you say, shatteringly powerful. Particularly with her stream-of-consciousness writing style, where you so naturally get sucked into the character's mental framework. The final trilogy in particular that brings it all together, but even within the individual trilogies she's constantly doing it.
I started reading her books back when I was still in school, and they had a fundamental impact on my life. It fundamentally altered the way I see things, and the career path I eventually took. I couldn't even articulate exactly how, until I stumbled upon the concept of systems thinking[1] a few years ago and realized that was what she had given me an awareness of. Which then led me to these[2][3], which pretty much describe how I had started seeing and approaching things after reading Robin Hobb's books.
Not sure if it would have been as impactful if I hadn't read them at such an impressionable age, but I'm forever grateful that I did. And for that, Robin Hobb will always reign supreme on my favorite author list.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory#Systems_thinkin...
[2] http://donellameadows.org/archives/dancing-with-systems/
[3] http://donellameadows.org/archives/leverage-points-places-to...
The way she uses perception, perspective, and cognitive biases are, as you say, shatteringly powerful. Particularly with her stream-of-consciousness writing style, where you so naturally get sucked into the character's mental framework. The final trilogy in particular that brings it all together, but even within the individual trilogies she's constantly doing it.
I started reading her books back when I was still in school, and they had a fundamental impact on my life. It fundamentally altered the way I see things, and the career path I eventually took. I couldn't even articulate exactly how, until I stumbled upon the concept of systems thinking[1] a few years ago and realized that was what she had given me an awareness of. Which then led me to these[2][3], which pretty much describe how I had started seeing and approaching things after reading Robin Hobb's books.
Not sure if it would have been as impactful if I hadn't read them at such an impressionable age, but I'm forever grateful that I did. And for that, Robin Hobb will always reign supreme on my favorite author list.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory#Systems_thinkin...
[2] http://donellameadows.org/archives/dancing-with-systems/
[3] http://donellameadows.org/archives/leverage-points-places-to...
I entirely agree with your message and can only support the recommendation about those great books I've read countless times.
I'm a fan of Robin Hobb too, getting my start with the Farseer Trilogy in the early 00's.
Her work is quite unique, I think - as you say, it's epic fantasy, but with a slant I haven't seen before. I'll happily second a recommendation for fantasy readers.
I hope she's doing OK, and would be very happy to read more from her, if it comes to her.
Her work is quite unique, I think - as you say, it's epic fantasy, but with a slant I haven't seen before. I'll happily second a recommendation for fantasy readers.
I hope she's doing OK, and would be very happy to read more from her, if it comes to her.
" Bad things definitely happen, but it's more hopeful and humane than something like Malazan or Song of Ice and Fire."
Ok, I agree on the positive outlook in her books in general (and I have not read the other books you mentioned), but I remember, that some books ended in a very dark way, leaving also me in a very dark mood. I felt a lot with poor young Fitz and the books affected me a lot in my teenage years.
But I never finished them, the last I read was Fools Fate quite some time ago ...
"The final trilogy brings so many elements together, and the ending is shatteringly powerful."
So this sounds very interesting and after a short research, this means I have to continue with Dragon Keeper, Dragon Haven, City of Dragons, Blood of Dragons, Fool's Assassin, Fool's Quest and then finally Assassin's Fate.
Well, if I treat my own animal not too bad and my baby animals give me some rest - I might one day finish them, too.
Ok, I agree on the positive outlook in her books in general (and I have not read the other books you mentioned), but I remember, that some books ended in a very dark way, leaving also me in a very dark mood. I felt a lot with poor young Fitz and the books affected me a lot in my teenage years.
But I never finished them, the last I read was Fools Fate quite some time ago ...
"The final trilogy brings so many elements together, and the ending is shatteringly powerful."
So this sounds very interesting and after a short research, this means I have to continue with Dragon Keeper, Dragon Haven, City of Dragons, Blood of Dragons, Fool's Assassin, Fool's Quest and then finally Assassin's Fate.
Well, if I treat my own animal not too bad and my baby animals give me some rest - I might one day finish them, too.
I read the Assassin's Apprentice series through, but it didn't really satisfy, and I haven't read anything else by the author. I like the Malazan ones, and ASoIF, a lot more - partly the grimdark, but more so the overall complexity of the plot. While Hobb's work was pleasant it just didn't really engage me.
To each their own. I've found Malazan to be quite a slog. Enjoyable in parts, but too many characters, too broad in scope for me. I'm on the final book now, and am going to finish it, but I'll feel more relief than anything when I'm done! The Assassin's Apprentice series, being from the first person perspective is in many ways its polar opposite. Each style has its advantages, but I've found I prefer stories where I can really get to know a few characters, rather than necessarily needing a truly massive, sprawling world. (Kingkiller Chronicle is probably my favourite; hope I get to read the rest of it eventually.)
I notice a similar trend in my enjoyment of RPGs, preferring something with a fairly linear storyline to more open world games.
I notice a similar trend in my enjoyment of RPGs, preferring something with a fairly linear storyline to more open world games.
I’m not convinced anyone has ever read of of the Malazan series. Sure, it’s theoretically possible, but has anyone really read /every/ word? Jokes aside, I love epic fantasy, but that series was just a little too epic for me. Wheel of Time has a nice balance, you really get to meet the main characters, it just takes a while.
I read it all.
I would say it needed a series re-edit. First book or two are really differently paced from the end; those two should probably get bulked up a bit, and pulled fully into the final story lore.
Then the series needs a trim down, probably like 33% of pages. It's possible some of the story arcs need to be moved around as well for better readability.
I have just specified like a decade of hard labor, I know. :)
With that done, I think Malazan could be considered one of the all-time great fantasy series. As it stands, it meanders too much at times, and it falls into a sort of military + fantasy sub-genre which I think lessens the impact of the overall story -- it really is an epic RPG-style quest involving hundreds of characters with a (mostly) satisfying finale.
I would say it needed a series re-edit. First book or two are really differently paced from the end; those two should probably get bulked up a bit, and pulled fully into the final story lore.
Then the series needs a trim down, probably like 33% of pages. It's possible some of the story arcs need to be moved around as well for better readability.
I have just specified like a decade of hard labor, I know. :)
With that done, I think Malazan could be considered one of the all-time great fantasy series. As it stands, it meanders too much at times, and it falls into a sort of military + fantasy sub-genre which I think lessens the impact of the overall story -- it really is an epic RPG-style quest involving hundreds of characters with a (mostly) satisfying finale.
I think I've reread Malazan about ten times now, generally once a year, and each time I get new things out of it.
And what I love the most is that he planned ten books rather than needing to shoehorn in extra books after planning a trilogy.
I absolutely adore the huge cast of characters and the fact that you kinda need to pay attention to get the most out of it.
And what I love the most is that he planned ten books rather than needing to shoehorn in extra books after planning a trilogy.
I absolutely adore the huge cast of characters and the fact that you kinda need to pay attention to get the most out of it.
I struggle to understand how you even get through it in a year, let alone re-reading it every year.
I don't watch TV, and read for at least an hour per day.
I've been reading a lot since I was very, very young, and have gotten better at it. To be fair, I do have to stop myself from skimming, which is fine with most books but definitely not Malazan.
And also, I probably forget most of it after I finish it, until I read it again.
I've been reading a lot since I was very, very young, and have gotten better at it. To be fair, I do have to stop myself from skimming, which is fine with most books but definitely not Malazan.
And also, I probably forget most of it after I finish it, until I read it again.
Depending how (fast) they read, it can be as little as 150h of reading, which is a month or 3 depending how much time they can devote to it.
The audiobooks are 390h total (16 days 5h according to Wikipedia). If your commute takes an hour each way, that’s less than a year even if you only ever listen to it while commuting.
The audiobooks are 390h total (16 days 5h according to Wikipedia). If your commute takes an hour each way, that’s less than a year even if you only ever listen to it while commuting.
I was put off by the bad writing. Good writing is really wasted on me, I mostly care for it to be sufficient enough not to get in the way of enjoying the story. In my opinion Malazan does not reach even that level, which is too bad as I enjoyed the word building and the most of the characters. For the most part it reads like a DM recounting their D&D campaign (which I understand it is exactly what it is), but what might work (or just be overlooked) on an interactive RPG session doesn't necessarily work on a book.
The first book was very bad, the second book was actually much better and I enjoyed it (I assume the editing was much more extensive), but the third book was again barely readable and put me off the series.
I might start it again at sometime in the future, because it is definitely something I would otherwise enjoy. I think I read somewhere that the third book might actually have been written before the second, which gives me hope.
The first book was very bad, the second book was actually much better and I enjoyed it (I assume the editing was much more extensive), but the third book was again barely readable and put me off the series.
I might start it again at sometime in the future, because it is definitely something I would otherwise enjoy. I think I read somewhere that the third book might actually have been written before the second, which gives me hope.
The problem with the series is it seems Erikson wants to use it as a vehicle to talk about a wide range of societal issues, which means we end up with hundreds of pages of Bugg or Kruppe inner dialogue which can be pretty painful at time.
Maybe that's what separates it from other series though.
Maybe that's what separates it from other series though.
Ha, I admit for the last couple of books I've resorted to Google's "read aloud" option to listen my way through it while working out and such things. So I'm getting the gist, but definitely not taking in every word (let alone reading them)!
It's been a long time since I read WoT. I recall tearing through the first few books that were primarily focused on Rand & party. Aside from female character perspectives being frustratingly one-dimensional and stereotypical, I found it great. But then it started broadening, where each book seemed to spend less and less time on the main characters, and instead introduced all these other factions and settings and such that didn't immediately tie in in any obvious way. It did all (mostly) come together eventually (with Sanderson's help), but again I feel like the important parts could have been told without spending so many pages in other places. But hey, that's just my taste; clearly others love that!
It's been a long time since I read WoT. I recall tearing through the first few books that were primarily focused on Rand & party. Aside from female character perspectives being frustratingly one-dimensional and stereotypical, I found it great. But then it started broadening, where each book seemed to spend less and less time on the main characters, and instead introduced all these other factions and settings and such that didn't immediately tie in in any obvious way. It did all (mostly) come together eventually (with Sanderson's help), but again I feel like the important parts could have been told without spending so many pages in other places. But hey, that's just my taste; clearly others love that!
Yeah, I thought Hobbs' books were well written, just not as much to my taste. I'm less interested in individual characters, or well formed prose (although both are good to have), than plot.
I don't really notice much difference in first and third person perspectives once into a book, although it's more noticeable when starting out. Second person is more jarring - I've read The Raven Tower and Harrow The Ninth recently, both being all or largely in second person.
Interesting point you make with regards to RPGs - open worlds are addictive to me (I played Skyrim for many, many years - and have played almost everything in the Elder Scrolls series).
I don't really notice much difference in first and third person perspectives once into a book, although it's more noticeable when starting out. Second person is more jarring - I've read The Raven Tower and Harrow The Ninth recently, both being all or largely in second person.
Interesting point you make with regards to RPGs - open worlds are addictive to me (I played Skyrim for many, many years - and have played almost everything in the Elder Scrolls series).
Ha, yeah, there's definitely a parallel there. I'm much more of a fan of things like Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment, and more recently the Dragon Age series (or at least the first couple. Undecided on 3 so far...) I tried to get into both Morrowind and Skyrim, but just didn't find they did it for me. Similar to the Fallout series (which I assume you'd enjoy as well if you haven't played them!)
Re books, Character development is probably #1 for me. I like a good plot as well though, but I prefer one that focuses on fewer characters in order to move forward with them more quickly. With something like Malazan or, say, Wheel of Time (which wasn't as well written maybe, but had quite a compelling plot) I find myself spending the whole time looking forward to the 10% of the book with the characters I actually care about; the rest can start to just feel like unnecessary filler almost.
Re books, Character development is probably #1 for me. I like a good plot as well though, but I prefer one that focuses on fewer characters in order to move forward with them more quickly. With something like Malazan or, say, Wheel of Time (which wasn't as well written maybe, but had quite a compelling plot) I find myself spending the whole time looking forward to the 10% of the book with the characters I actually care about; the rest can start to just feel like unnecessary filler almost.
I really liked the first book and parts of the 2nd and 3rd, but man the 3rd book really threw me off the series. Just a really unsatisfying way to land a trilogy - all of the stress and torment that Fitz had gone through for a couple of thousand pages across the 3 books is given just a few pages at the end, not even in-character, to pay off.
Wonderful prose but man the storytelling was a disappointment. Put me off her work completely.
Wonderful prose but man the storytelling was a disappointment. Put me off her work completely.
Re-read the Assassin books recently afte revering them/Hobb as a kid. They're still good but I found plenty to critique this time around. Like, Fitz receives constant physical and emotional abuse from everyone around him but he remains ever loyal. It makes for exhausting reading at various points and his choices becomes increasingly hard to justify. Especially since those around him move on with their lives while he remains stuck: always agonising but ultimately never doing anything for himself. I also thought the antagonists were rather one dimensional haters, with not very interesting arcs.
Anyway! I don't mean to complain. These remain cherished books for me!
Anyway! I don't mean to complain. These remain cherished books for me!
I just worked through them so it's a bit of a fresh wound. I wanted so badly for there to be a big satisfying payoff!
> Wonderful prose but man the storytelling was a disappointment.
If you're looking for quality prose with a confusing, hard-to-perceive story in the background, I can recommend Patricia A. McKillip. Most famously, I think, the Riddle-Master books, but most of her fantasy stuff is like this.
It's not so much that the storytelling is disappointing as that it's hard to understand what's supposed to be going on. But the writing style is something else.
If you're looking for quality prose with a confusing, hard-to-perceive story in the background, I can recommend Patricia A. McKillip. Most famously, I think, the Riddle-Master books, but most of her fantasy stuff is like this.
It's not so much that the storytelling is disappointing as that it's hard to understand what's supposed to be going on. But the writing style is something else.
As a followup, The 13 Clocks by James Thurber is a very short book, but it has some of the best writing I've ever seen. The story is not confusing, but it's nothing particularly special either.
100% agreed. Robin Hobb (Margaret Astrid Lindholm Ogden) was without a doubt my favourite author as a teenager.
Sadly, in the last 10 years, I've barely read anything. However, when The Fitz and the Fool Trilogy came out, you can bet I made time to read it!
Sadly, in the last 10 years, I've barely read anything. However, when The Fitz and the Fool Trilogy came out, you can bet I made time to read it!
> Sadly, in the last 10 years, I've barely read anything.
Try audiobooks. It's difficult for me at the moment to set aside time to curl up with a sheaf of paper bound together; but I continue to get my dose of long-form words when working out, washing dishes, mowing the lawn (and, before the pandemic, cycling to the office).
Try audiobooks. It's difficult for me at the moment to set aside time to curl up with a sheaf of paper bound together; but I continue to get my dose of long-form words when working out, washing dishes, mowing the lawn (and, before the pandemic, cycling to the office).
I look forward to my 45mins commute on the tube as it is the only time I have for reading. In fact I haven't ready pretty much anything at all on this year long lockdown and just restarted now as I went back to the office.
> more hopeful and humane than something like Malazan
Am I missing something here? It's been a while since I read the Malazan series but hope seems to be one of the primary themes of the series, even if things are utterly bleak at times.
Am I missing something here? It's been a while since I read the Malazan series but hope seems to be one of the primary themes of the series, even if things are utterly bleak at times.
I picked up the first book of the assassins trilogy on a whim, and ended up discovering, like you, one of my all time favourite fantasy authors.
70? My animal is only 33 and is very tired. Writing this as it lays in bed, 3 in the afternoon, because even a standard chair sounds more exhausting to it.
It seems to have no motivation or energy to do much besides lay here.
If I force it, it will get stuff done but at a huge cost. It will yearn the entire time to just lay back down.
It's interest in things seems to be fading quickly. What desire it used to have to work hard and succeed, has slipped away. It seems these days it has only enough energy to lay in bed and scroll through the internet. Not sure what is wrong with my animal, but this is no way for it to live.
I was hard on the animal in its early 20s, but no harder than the average animal. The past 7 years or so have actually been pretty calm, good food, semi regular exercise, stable job, etc.
It's scary to imagine how the animal would feel at 70 if this is how it feels at 33. Maybe the pandemic was a straw to its back, and the isolation has worn it down more than anything else possibly could.
It seems to have no motivation or energy to do much besides lay here.
If I force it, it will get stuff done but at a huge cost. It will yearn the entire time to just lay back down.
It's interest in things seems to be fading quickly. What desire it used to have to work hard and succeed, has slipped away. It seems these days it has only enough energy to lay in bed and scroll through the internet. Not sure what is wrong with my animal, but this is no way for it to live.
I was hard on the animal in its early 20s, but no harder than the average animal. The past 7 years or so have actually been pretty calm, good food, semi regular exercise, stable job, etc.
It's scary to imagine how the animal would feel at 70 if this is how it feels at 33. Maybe the pandemic was a straw to its back, and the isolation has worn it down more than anything else possibly could.
> My animal is only 33 and is very tired
In life satisfaction surveys, your 30’s are the most miserable stressful part of life. Highest amount of responsibilities, lowest amount of consistent reward, and it keeps getting worse until your 40’s
Apparently it gets better again in your late 40’s and early 50’s. By 60 you’re as happy as you were at 20.
https://www.inc.com/jeff-haden/scientists-just-discovered-mi...
(am 33 and also just ... tired)
In life satisfaction surveys, your 30’s are the most miserable stressful part of life. Highest amount of responsibilities, lowest amount of consistent reward, and it keeps getting worse until your 40’s
Apparently it gets better again in your late 40’s and early 50’s. By 60 you’re as happy as you were at 20.
https://www.inc.com/jeff-haden/scientists-just-discovered-mi...
(am 33 and also just ... tired)
Really? In my 30s I felt on top of the world. Enough wisdom to put my knowledge to good use and a fit body that only had the occasional ache. Everything went downhill around 42 though. Eyesight, hearing, processing speed, memory, sleep apnea, weight gain, hair loss, ED... I have to be on some combination of marijuana to sleep and modafinil to wake up. Exercise helps but the gains fade fast so it's basically a 10% tax on my waking hours to keep things from fading faster. Oh and when you're 40 something no one gives a shit. You're not old enough to pity, but you're old enough to be responsible for everything. You just have to keep slugging it out with reality until your mid 60s.
Exercise is probably the best thing you can do to improve your longevity. I don't have a source, but I don't think this is a controversial idea. Even long walks can help (though as someone who lives in the middle of nowhere, I can understand if this is not possible). I'm only 28, but I find that long walks on the treadmill (with my laptop in front of me, while I'm working) can really make me feel a lot better. I do have a general fitness routine I keep up with though, so that likely plays a role here.
One thing that has helped me immeasurably is taking up a hobby that gets me outside and doing some manual labor. I love gardening and I'd suggest it to anyone. I have shed several inches off my waistband since starting to garden and I find myself spending considerably less time in front of the computer screen just wasting time.
One thing that has helped me immeasurably is taking up a hobby that gets me outside and doing some manual labor. I love gardening and I'd suggest it to anyone. I have shed several inches off my waistband since starting to garden and I find myself spending considerably less time in front of the computer screen just wasting time.
I used to love excercise -- but a decade of power-lifting at the gym and going hard from 25-36 has destroyed my back/shoulders/hips... everything. Have been enjoying the longest streak of sciatica-free pain for the last 8 months since gyms have been locked down due to COVID. Still get out and walk lots, but I really wish I had been far more moderate with excercise when I was younger.
Yup. I wrestled in high school and college and very much destroyed my body. I lifted for years after in a way that wasnt helpful either. Now I'm getting close to 30 and I have found ways to exercise that are actually rewarding rather than mostly taxing on my body but man do I wish someone would have showed me this when I was in my 20's.
And told me that pain was actually a good indicator that one is pushing too hard with exercise.
And told me that pain was actually a good indicator that one is pushing too hard with exercise.
Getting up and going outside is a huge one for me. I could sit here at my desk all day working and be miserable... and suddenly I am excited at the prospect of mowing my lawn.
I mean at the end of the work day, I shut my computer... and that's it. After my lawn is mowed, I can look out and enjoy how it looks. Hell, I can work 10+ hours outside doing boring terrible tasks, shovel ditches, spread bark, weedwhacking the blackberries... but man does it feel great. I used to hate this stuff so much. Give me a paintbrush and let me go paint the shed, or build some crappy shelf to organize things.
I mean at the end of the work day, I shut my computer... and that's it. After my lawn is mowed, I can look out and enjoy how it looks. Hell, I can work 10+ hours outside doing boring terrible tasks, shovel ditches, spread bark, weedwhacking the blackberries... but man does it feel great. I used to hate this stuff so much. Give me a paintbrush and let me go paint the shed, or build some crappy shelf to organize things.
I don’t think societies neglect for its citizens is easily tied solely to age. At least in my experience, it’s a pretty constant lack of care for me. I’ve had doctors tell me I’m making it up when I’m in shattering, blinding pain more than I care to remember. Had companies treat me like no amount of offensive behavior to outright bullying is a problem if I’m the victim. This is in 20s-30s.
Though I realize ageism is a thing. One of my 60+ coworkers has basically been told they’re too old for any sort of advancement.
Though I realize ageism is a thing. One of my 60+ coworkers has basically been told they’re too old for any sort of advancement.
Isn't this just caused by you leaving your 20's behind? At least for me I feel like I passed by my best years, and am only realizing it now.
By 60 I certainly hope to have accepted that, but right now it's still a bit hard.
By 60 I certainly hope to have accepted that, but right now it's still a bit hard.
I suspect the confounding variable is that late 20’s/early 30’s is when most people have kids. Happiness levels improve in late 50’s when kids are out of the house.
Kids may be “a complete joy and the best thing you’ve ever done”, but they’re also a huge financial burden, source of stress, and limiter on doing what you wanna do.
Kids may be “a complete joy and the best thing you’ve ever done”, but they’re also a huge financial burden, source of stress, and limiter on doing what you wanna do.
This is certainly a take.
My children, one of the greatest sources of pure, unadulterated, innocent joy, are the only reason I believe there is still good in the world and thankful that this floating rock continues to revolve around the sun so I get to enjoy them. The stress of the children and the hard work is so minuscule in comparison.
My children, one of the greatest sources of pure, unadulterated, innocent joy, are the only reason I believe there is still good in the world and thankful that this floating rock continues to revolve around the sun so I get to enjoy them. The stress of the children and the hard work is so minuscule in comparison.
Got a better explanation?
I think it’s possible for both to be true. That kids give you unadulterated joy and also make you objectively worse off.
I think it’s possible for both to be true. That kids give you unadulterated joy and also make you objectively worse off.
Generally, what I have seen, people report greater overall satisfaction with their lives if they have kids. Cant be bothered to dig up the data, but I have read about it a number of times over the years. However, deep in your 20s and 30s is when careers are taking off, kids are at their most demanding ages, etc. it’s rare to be fully established in your career when your kids are young. That means lower earnings. So, yeah, it’s stressful. It’s also rewarding.
My kids are older now. They bring my joy and all that. My mid 20s were also really hard when my kids were born. I think its all pretty obvious. Kids are like type 2 fun more than type 1 for most people. I appreciate them and watching them develop was quite an amazing process, and it brought me a lot of satisfaction, but it was also hard. I think a lot of parents take umbrage at saying their kids made them worse off, it really depends on what criteria you are using? Financial? Life satisfaction? Other? Most parents probably don’t /feel/ worse off in a general way.
Yeah it depends how you ask the question.
Do you feel more fulfilled? Yes probably
Do you feel more stressed and struggling? D’oh
Typically we don’t equate “stressed, struggling, tired, and constantly drowning” as more happy. At least not in life satisfaction surveys I imagine
Do you feel more fulfilled? Yes probably
Do you feel more stressed and struggling? D’oh
Typically we don’t equate “stressed, struggling, tired, and constantly drowning” as more happy. At least not in life satisfaction surveys I imagine
All of your ancestors raised children. We are machines, designed by nature to procreate.
The notion that one would be objectively better off by avoiding the very process that brought themself into being...seems unlikely to me.
Unless, we’re narrowly using the term “objectively better off” to mean what society seems to value: money, power, pleasure, etc. These things aren’t necessarily good for the organism in the way that having children is.
The notion that one would be objectively better off by avoiding the very process that brought themself into being...seems unlikely to me.
Unless, we’re narrowly using the term “objectively better off” to mean what society seems to value: money, power, pleasure, etc. These things aren’t necessarily good for the organism in the way that having children is.
Hah, this is true. I’m going to keep this. By virtue of having children, I’m objectively better off than anyone that didn’t.
its not exactly true though.
happiness is related to the society you live in and your biology ... and other variables. its entirely possible that you can be both "objectively worse off/more stressed", which is generally considered to be a cause for unhappiness and still feel that the children were the best decision of your life.
its a complex topic and i dont think anyone can realistically generalize it.
there will be people that are actually unhappy because of them while still claiming happiness, as well as people that were unhappy until they finally had them.
happiness is related to the society you live in and your biology ... and other variables. its entirely possible that you can be both "objectively worse off/more stressed", which is generally considered to be a cause for unhappiness and still feel that the children were the best decision of your life.
its a complex topic and i dont think anyone can realistically generalize it.
there will be people that are actually unhappy because of them while still claiming happiness, as well as people that were unhappy until they finally had them.
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I think constant exhaustion might have some effect on your satisfaction levels ;)
In my case, I’m also moving around a lot more, so I guess the added exercise compensates for the exhaustion in terms of effect on overall happiness.
In my case, I’m also moving around a lot more, so I guess the added exercise compensates for the exhaustion in terms of effect on overall happiness.
Sure, your mortgage is paid off and you're probably in a management or other upper level position with less job insecurity.
Looked into this, since a lot of people would say this is crazy. But it turns out kids do seem to have a negative correlation with parental well-being. I found http://www.nber.org/papers/w25597 which takes a closer look at some of the possible reasons.
The article says kids make people (Europeans, anyway) happy except for the financial stress.
For the record, I (op) do not have kids. I am however married and very happy with my marriage.
In the age we live in it is entirely socially acceptable to be living a 20s lifestyle in your 30s and beyond. Few people I know are tied down to much if anything and enjoy travel, sport, relationships for fun and all the things your 20s are known for.
Just much less binge drinking, which is honestly a blessing.
Just much less binge drinking, which is honestly a blessing.
The causative factor for the result of the surveys is kids.
Really young kids especially. It's weird because having a baby is both one of the most fulfilling parts of life but also drains you massively. I suppose the fulfillment is part of a biological desire to reproduce.
Right - I think we get a lot of in-built satisfaction and pleasure from being around or raising kids, specifically to offset just how annoying and difficult the task of raising them is.
I definitely have this built-in feeling quite broken. I left the door open to perhaps consider forming a family at some point since my first girlfriend, over the years it's only got more clear that I don't enjoy kids, at all.
I don't take enjoyment from being around kids, playing with kids or any kind of interaction with them, it makes me feel broken but I simply can't. Not even with my niece, my sisters get a lot of joy out of simply being around her, for me it's a massive energy drain, and it's been like that with every kid I had to be close to due to family or friends ties.
I'm so tired of feeling this way, now getting into my early to mid-30s and having to explain to people over and over that I do understand the ones who want kids, the ones who get enjoyment out of them, but I don't, at all. I never have and it's only got more cemented over time.
Lately I just put a façade of telling that someone's kid is cute, etc., as it's the social norm. If I was being very honest I'd just say that I don't enjoy kids, don't mind hanging out with people who have kids when they are around but I don't get any energy from having to interact with them.
I don't take enjoyment from being around kids, playing with kids or any kind of interaction with them, it makes me feel broken but I simply can't. Not even with my niece, my sisters get a lot of joy out of simply being around her, for me it's a massive energy drain, and it's been like that with every kid I had to be close to due to family or friends ties.
I'm so tired of feeling this way, now getting into my early to mid-30s and having to explain to people over and over that I do understand the ones who want kids, the ones who get enjoyment out of them, but I don't, at all. I never have and it's only got more cemented over time.
Lately I just put a façade of telling that someone's kid is cute, etc., as it's the social norm. If I was being very honest I'd just say that I don't enjoy kids, don't mind hanging out with people who have kids when they are around but I don't get any energy from having to interact with them.
You're not broken. People keep asking me why my girlfriend and I don't have kids... I don't understand that question to be honest. They all act like I should have some desire to raise a kid. I ask them, why they don't learn to weld or do woodworking (usually I ask them something they have never considered)? Sometimes there are just things that people do that I don't want to. There's not actually a reason for me to not have kids. I have nothing against it, I just don't ever sit here during the day and think "boy, my life would sure be better with a baby." If you do, that's fine, I'm not trying to rag on anybody. But just fuckin' leave me alone about it.
People should never have kids 'just because'. If you want to raise a family, you should do it deliberately and have a reason why you WANT to have kids. Otherwise you end up being a resentful asshole and treat your kids like garbage. I know it's the best thing in the world for a lot of people... but for a lot of people, let's be honest, it's not. Not wanting kids doesn't make you an asshole, it makes you human with different goals and desires from other people.
People should never have kids 'just because'. If you want to raise a family, you should do it deliberately and have a reason why you WANT to have kids. Otherwise you end up being a resentful asshole and treat your kids like garbage. I know it's the best thing in the world for a lot of people... but for a lot of people, let's be honest, it's not. Not wanting kids doesn't make you an asshole, it makes you human with different goals and desires from other people.
Interesting statistic you should note. When people are asked whether they are happier with or without children most people pick happier. There is a positive correlation between picking happier and how wealthy someone is.
Interestingly, when asking people how happy they are on a scale of 1 to 10 without bringing children into the picture what you see is that people without children are always happier.
What I'm thinking is this. People are generally unhappier with children but certain things in the brain block most people from realizing it. How effective this block is depends on how unhappy you actually are. A person in poverty will be more self aware of the unhappiness brought on by their two screaming kids then the rich person. Not all people have this thing in the brain.
I suspect you rate high on psychopathy so you're able to see truth where other people's views are clouded and deluded by an endorphin rush. Like I mentioned you should also ask yourself how rich you are, but I think this is irrelevant to you given how you mentioned you derive zero energy from being with kids.
Interestingly, when asking people how happy they are on a scale of 1 to 10 without bringing children into the picture what you see is that people without children are always happier.
What I'm thinking is this. People are generally unhappier with children but certain things in the brain block most people from realizing it. How effective this block is depends on how unhappy you actually are. A person in poverty will be more self aware of the unhappiness brought on by their two screaming kids then the rich person. Not all people have this thing in the brain.
I suspect you rate high on psychopathy so you're able to see truth where other people's views are clouded and deluded by an endorphin rush. Like I mentioned you should also ask yourself how rich you are, but I think this is irrelevant to you given how you mentioned you derive zero energy from being with kids.
I’ll just throw out there that I didn’t care about kids, babies until after We had one. My brain definitely changed.
How was that feeling? Did you simply not care or did it take your energy away to be around them?
I've actively tried to change and engage more with kids for a few years, this dread never went away, it's not only I don't take enjoyment but it saps something out of me, it's quite strange as I don't feel that strongly against anything else considered normal in life...
I've actively tried to change and engage more with kids for a few years, this dread never went away, it's not only I don't take enjoyment but it saps something out of me, it's quite strange as I don't feel that strongly against anything else considered normal in life...
It changed for me with my first daughter too.
Before that, crying/arguing kids (of e.g. friends) always gave me headaches and i never knew what to talk with them or how to interact.
Also when my wife told me she was pregnent, all i felt was 'Ok, now the ... starts' - i did not enjoy the news.
But in hospital, when my daughter was born and i sat in a chair holding here sleeping on my arms for the first time - it changed 180°. I constantly had a smile on my face and felt warmth and the need to protect here.
I also enjoy beeing around other peoples kids now and i am more open to "little jokes" to make them smile.
So it seemed to be a biological barrier for me, which i needed to be taken over by my daughter to switche to "parent-mode".
It is also quite funny to see the faces of colleagues (without kids) and how they react to kids-stories. It was the same for me before i had my own.
Before that, crying/arguing kids (of e.g. friends) always gave me headaches and i never knew what to talk with them or how to interact.
Also when my wife told me she was pregnent, all i felt was 'Ok, now the ... starts' - i did not enjoy the news.
But in hospital, when my daughter was born and i sat in a chair holding here sleeping on my arms for the first time - it changed 180°. I constantly had a smile on my face and felt warmth and the need to protect here.
I also enjoy beeing around other peoples kids now and i am more open to "little jokes" to make them smile.
So it seemed to be a biological barrier for me, which i needed to be taken over by my daughter to switche to "parent-mode".
It is also quite funny to see the faces of colleagues (without kids) and how they react to kids-stories. It was the same for me before i had my own.
I suppose it sapped energy in the way that any social effort does, but it was mostly apathy. I didn’t have any warm fuzzy feelings around babies, kids, puppies.
To say that I “softened” after my son came would be wrong as it didn’t feel like I was being emotionally “hard” before (as would be the stereotype for men). Something just changed and now I see/feel joy around young children (even if another part of my brain is saying god damn, they’re a lot of work).
Edit: All that said - try to stand on your own two feet. If you want to explore negative mindsets about kids, consider seeing a therapist. A good friend of mine made great strides sorting out his own hang ups with his childhood/his parents and is now a happy (tired) father. If you just don’t want kids - well, who gives a shit. Find a partner who doesn’t want kids.
To say that I “softened” after my son came would be wrong as it didn’t feel like I was being emotionally “hard” before (as would be the stereotype for men). Something just changed and now I see/feel joy around young children (even if another part of my brain is saying god damn, they’re a lot of work).
Edit: All that said - try to stand on your own two feet. If you want to explore negative mindsets about kids, consider seeing a therapist. A good friend of mine made great strides sorting out his own hang ups with his childhood/his parents and is now a happy (tired) father. If you just don’t want kids - well, who gives a shit. Find a partner who doesn’t want kids.
I'm not expected to be friendly and fun around adults I don't know -- so why is it that I'm expected to be friendly and fun around kids? They're still strangers. I dread spending time with kids I barely know in the same way I dread spending time with adults I barely know. I have friends with kids, but spending time with those kids is like spending time with those friends' parents. Yes, they're related to my friends, but they're still strangers to me.
Then I had a kid... and nothing changed about other kids. I still don't know them and I still feel awkward around them. But I do know my kid. He likes spending time with me and I like spending time with him, even though it can be boring/tiring sometimes.
Then I had a kid... and nothing changed about other kids. I still don't know them and I still feel awkward around them. But I do know my kid. He likes spending time with me and I like spending time with him, even though it can be boring/tiring sometimes.
It changes once you find or have something worth passing on. I don't have any kids or much materially, but I love to teach any of the skills or interests that I've picked up to any kid I get blessed with time with who shows even a mild interest.
Children, after about 3, are so much simpler to be around than adults. Though it can be draining at times if you have too many youngsters around, but your mind is chewing on an adult problem. What really gets the chemistry going is when you run into one where you see them running into the same problems you did growing up, or who has similar problems. The matching communication style but different origins make the entire experience somehow reinvigorating. Like a karmic balloon for your heart by helping someone avoid exactly retracing the life lessons you learned the hard way, and sometimes, they teach you a nugget of wisdom you'll kick yourself for not having caught..
Even if they aren't mine biologically, being a good (kind, wise, intelligent, enpathetic, independent responsible, creative, critical thinking, contributing person) is learned behavior, that the teaching is not straightforward for, but watching the lightbulb come on is one of the few things keeping me getting out of bed these days.
Children, after about 3, are so much simpler to be around than adults. Though it can be draining at times if you have too many youngsters around, but your mind is chewing on an adult problem. What really gets the chemistry going is when you run into one where you see them running into the same problems you did growing up, or who has similar problems. The matching communication style but different origins make the entire experience somehow reinvigorating. Like a karmic balloon for your heart by helping someone avoid exactly retracing the life lessons you learned the hard way, and sometimes, they teach you a nugget of wisdom you'll kick yourself for not having caught..
Even if they aren't mine biologically, being a good (kind, wise, intelligent, enpathetic, independent responsible, creative, critical thinking, contributing person) is learned behavior, that the teaching is not straightforward for, but watching the lightbulb come on is one of the few things keeping me getting out of bed these days.
I like the way you out this, it resonates with my own beliefs and thoughts but I could never put it in those words.
Sort of like seeing your younger self in some kid and your advice being the cheat code.
Hao! Hao.
Sort of like seeing your younger self in some kid and your advice being the cheat code.
Hao! Hao.
I was thinking that, as I was wondering what these people are doing differently and wonder if that different thing was actually conventional rites of passage.
I was pretty unhappy as a teenager. Not as much formal responsibility (though arguably the responsibilities wrt study etc have more serious consequences), but more autonomy at least.
sorry, I mean now I have more autonomy; i.e. owning stuff/money, making choices wrt my life; but lack the free time I had.
Thanks, that's a bit relieving.
I'm 59, and pretty darn happy.
I get aches and pains from everything, though. My back is still aching from weeding a week and a half ago.
I get aches and pains from everything, though. My back is still aching from weeding a week and a half ago.
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This actually sounds quite a bit like depression. Some inexpensive meds can make a huge difference. I know from experience.
I have tried prozac. Unfortunately, it made my tiredness even worse almost immediately. Doctor said this would go away after I increased dosage, but I couldn't stick with it long enough to see this benefit.
I've considered trying again but, it's a hard pill to swallow when the solution takes weeks to work, and in the meantime, you're suffering even more.
If I had to be honest, I question whether I am scientifically "depressed". The "tests" they give you are totally subjective.
While, yes, I exhibit many of the symptoms of depression I also wonder if I'm just ill suited for modern life. My interests are strong, and fleeting. Life seems to reward people who can hold focus on boring tasks, for long periods of time, even decades. I was probably a better hunter than I am a programmer.
Yet, here I am, coding for a living and browsing the internet in my spare time. Oof.
So get out there! I hear you say. Yea, if only it were so easy to uproot my entire life, leave my wife, and go live wild in the sticks where I'd be more centered and at peace with my core being. That's just not feasible.
The point isn't that I would be happier living in the woods, off the grid, in the rawness of nature ... The point is just that something in this modern life is missing, and more likely than a chemical imbalance, it is that missing element which drains my soul and leaves me exhausted and unmotivated.
That, or it's some terrible undiagnosed medical condition.
I've considered trying again but, it's a hard pill to swallow when the solution takes weeks to work, and in the meantime, you're suffering even more.
If I had to be honest, I question whether I am scientifically "depressed". The "tests" they give you are totally subjective.
While, yes, I exhibit many of the symptoms of depression I also wonder if I'm just ill suited for modern life. My interests are strong, and fleeting. Life seems to reward people who can hold focus on boring tasks, for long periods of time, even decades. I was probably a better hunter than I am a programmer.
Yet, here I am, coding for a living and browsing the internet in my spare time. Oof.
So get out there! I hear you say. Yea, if only it were so easy to uproot my entire life, leave my wife, and go live wild in the sticks where I'd be more centered and at peace with my core being. That's just not feasible.
The point isn't that I would be happier living in the woods, off the grid, in the rawness of nature ... The point is just that something in this modern life is missing, and more likely than a chemical imbalance, it is that missing element which drains my soul and leaves me exhausted and unmotivated.
That, or it's some terrible undiagnosed medical condition.
That sounds exactly what I was going through for the past 15+ years. I had many strong interests, but everything seemed like more work than it was worth doing. Depression and anxiety accompanied the low motivation. I chalked it up to being in a bad mood, and tried lots of mental health related things to fix that, with little progress over years of consistent effort.
Within the past two or three years, some health concerns started showing up - daily headaches, a near-constant lightheaded feeling, nausea, trouble focusing my eyes, stuff like that. Eventually, the near-constant nausea forced me to try some dietary changes.
It turned out that gluten was the cause of all those more concerning health issues. But to my surprise, it was also the cause of the attention and motivation issues that had plagued me for most of my life. After 3 or so days off of gluten, my mind suddenly felt so much more clear, and since then, I've been much more able to pursue my interests. I didn't get diagnosed, but the closest disorders I could find are gluten-induced brain fog (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7454984/) and the beginnings of gluten ataxia (https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/74/9/1221).
I'm not saying that you have the same thing, but it could definitely be a medical condition if you don't respond well to therapy or antidepressants. I wouldn't overlook the physical side of things.
Within the past two or three years, some health concerns started showing up - daily headaches, a near-constant lightheaded feeling, nausea, trouble focusing my eyes, stuff like that. Eventually, the near-constant nausea forced me to try some dietary changes.
It turned out that gluten was the cause of all those more concerning health issues. But to my surprise, it was also the cause of the attention and motivation issues that had plagued me for most of my life. After 3 or so days off of gluten, my mind suddenly felt so much more clear, and since then, I've been much more able to pursue my interests. I didn't get diagnosed, but the closest disorders I could find are gluten-induced brain fog (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7454984/) and the beginnings of gluten ataxia (https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/74/9/1221).
I'm not saying that you have the same thing, but it could definitely be a medical condition if you don't respond well to therapy or antidepressants. I wouldn't overlook the physical side of things.
I've tried the no gluten thing, and really felt no difference what so ever. I really had high hopes that was the issue since a lot of friends also reported feeling much more energy and motivation.
I did try going completely carb free for a week one time. I had no energy crashes which was great, but, I never really felt dramatically different mentally. While I wasn't crashing, I also wasn't suddenly feeling much more focus or "energy" (motivation, interest in work).
I was just kind of, stable low energy / motivation. Rather than, mostly low energy / motivation with some occasional really deep crashes caused by carb blasts.
I did try going completely carb free for a week one time. I had no energy crashes which was great, but, I never really felt dramatically different mentally. While I wasn't crashing, I also wasn't suddenly feeling much more focus or "energy" (motivation, interest in work).
I was just kind of, stable low energy / motivation. Rather than, mostly low energy / motivation with some occasional really deep crashes caused by carb blasts.
Have you tried fasting? I have found it an effective antidepressant and stimulant. There are also some interesting health benefits (mostly to do with autophagy, cellular and subcellular cleanup mechanisms).
But yeah, I am also ill suited to modern life, and I'm working towards being able to spend as much time in the woods as I need.
But yeah, I am also ill suited to modern life, and I'm working towards being able to spend as much time in the woods as I need.
I haven't actually tried fasting. The longest I've gone without eating is something like 20 hours.
I should give fasting a try though, I believe in the research. My hesitation has been that I am pretty low BMI. I seem to struggle to keep weight on even if I'm eating a normal amount.
I should give fasting a try though, I believe in the research. My hesitation has been that I am pretty low BMI. I seem to struggle to keep weight on even if I'm eating a normal amount.
I was in a similar state when I was about 33. Burnt myself out coding for startups and really got bored of programming. Found I was doing a whole lot of things I didn’t really enjoy and putting off dealing with some internal issues (for example, a childhood trauma from drowning and the fear of swimming that came from that).
Not that what works for me would work for you, but one day at about 33 I made a commitment to myself that I’d find a path through my body. Not sure why it was that, but it intuitively felt right. I had one ego melting psychedelic experience, started working with a swimming coach, dedicated myself to a yoga practice, got back to daily seated meditation, went to therapy, and journaled every day (did The Artist’s Way workbook to start that habit, which I have mixed feelings about but journaling is transformative).
It wasn’t all at once, it started gradually, but it started with a commitment that I’d find a way in through my body. Things aren’t all great all the time — sometimes I really dread getting to a yoga mat to practice, or wake up not wanting to sit for meditation. And I definitely have existential lows. I just am much better equipped to deal with things now.
Your physical practice might (likely) look totally different than mine, but I do think there is one that will bring joy and transformation for everyone. Maybe it’s martial arts, maybe it’s strength training, maybe it’s running, maybe it’s dancing, maybe it’s doing something like Wim Hof cold exposure training. Who knows, for me it was Yoga, but I’d really recommend everyone find that thing that gets them working through the layers of their body. Your 37 year old self will thank you.
Not that what works for me would work for you, but one day at about 33 I made a commitment to myself that I’d find a path through my body. Not sure why it was that, but it intuitively felt right. I had one ego melting psychedelic experience, started working with a swimming coach, dedicated myself to a yoga practice, got back to daily seated meditation, went to therapy, and journaled every day (did The Artist’s Way workbook to start that habit, which I have mixed feelings about but journaling is transformative).
It wasn’t all at once, it started gradually, but it started with a commitment that I’d find a way in through my body. Things aren’t all great all the time — sometimes I really dread getting to a yoga mat to practice, or wake up not wanting to sit for meditation. And I definitely have existential lows. I just am much better equipped to deal with things now.
Your physical practice might (likely) look totally different than mine, but I do think there is one that will bring joy and transformation for everyone. Maybe it’s martial arts, maybe it’s strength training, maybe it’s running, maybe it’s dancing, maybe it’s doing something like Wim Hof cold exposure training. Who knows, for me it was Yoga, but I’d really recommend everyone find that thing that gets them working through the layers of their body. Your 37 year old self will thank you.
> My interests are strong, and fleeting. Life seems to reward people who can hold focus on boring tasks, for long periods of time, even decades. I was probably a better hunter than I am a programmer.
Sounds like ADHD.
Sounds like ADHD.
Programming can be good for ADHD though, since it has strong short feedback loops.
>That, or it's some terrible undiagnosed medical condition.
Sounds like ADHD to me too. At least it's eerily similar to my experience and I'm in the process of getting diagnosed.
https://youtu.be/WFkpICWE9DM - might help.
Sounds like ADHD to me too. At least it's eerily similar to my experience and I'm in the process of getting diagnosed.
https://youtu.be/WFkpICWE9DM - might help.
So, probably, yes.
I have struggled my entire life with these issues. The post you see here isn't something that's new.
Whatever is causing this is inherent to my being.
I've seen doctors, and had both depression and adhd diagnosed. The ADHD meds were amazing. They "solved" this problem. I feel better, I feel happy, I feel more motivated, I feel more natural interest and ability to hold my focus. I feel less foggy and tired.
But, I can't stomach being on stimulants my entire life. I hate that idea.
So yea, the one thing that works, I'm not willing to take. Hard to have much sympathy for me if I'm not even willing to take what is being prescribed.
I keep saying to myself I need to just man up, and take the medicine. I do it for a week, I feel great, and then I start to hate feeling different (even if different, is quite good), and I attribute it to being loaded with amphetamines, and how bad that must be for my body.
So I stop taking them and revert to feeling shitty and looking for a new solution.
I have struggled my entire life with these issues. The post you see here isn't something that's new.
Whatever is causing this is inherent to my being.
I've seen doctors, and had both depression and adhd diagnosed. The ADHD meds were amazing. They "solved" this problem. I feel better, I feel happy, I feel more motivated, I feel more natural interest and ability to hold my focus. I feel less foggy and tired.
But, I can't stomach being on stimulants my entire life. I hate that idea.
So yea, the one thing that works, I'm not willing to take. Hard to have much sympathy for me if I'm not even willing to take what is being prescribed.
I keep saying to myself I need to just man up, and take the medicine. I do it for a week, I feel great, and then I start to hate feeling different (even if different, is quite good), and I attribute it to being loaded with amphetamines, and how bad that must be for my body.
So I stop taking them and revert to feeling shitty and looking for a new solution.
You have my sympathy regardless, for whatever it's worth.
I don't yet have access to stimulants (beyond caffeine), but I've found cannabis relieves the ADHD symptoms when used sparingly (A very short hit from a vape, essentially microdosing).
Even still, I'm on a 4:2 cycle. 4 days medicated, 2 days off, because I find myself feeling stretched thin if I remain medicated for too long.
This fucked up brain of ours just doesn't belong in this fucked up world of ours. Do whatever you need to do to cope.
I don't yet have access to stimulants (beyond caffeine), but I've found cannabis relieves the ADHD symptoms when used sparingly (A very short hit from a vape, essentially microdosing).
Even still, I'm on a 4:2 cycle. 4 days medicated, 2 days off, because I find myself feeling stretched thin if I remain medicated for too long.
This fucked up brain of ours just doesn't belong in this fucked up world of ours. Do whatever you need to do to cope.
You might want to just try a lower dose. While it may be different because I don’t take stimulants for ADHD, I don’t feel like myself if the dose is too high.
Also, different medications work for different people. Vyvanse works the best for me, but I’m just after stimulation (for idiopathic hypersomnia).
Also, different medications work for different people. Vyvanse works the best for me, but I’m just after stimulation (for idiopathic hypersomnia).
> and how bad that must be for my body.
For what is worth, at prescription doses they are not bad for your body at all.
For what is worth, at prescription doses they are not bad for your body at all.
i'm not sure if you are still interested in pursuing a pharmacological route but SSRI's are some of the least effective anti-depressants available today. many meta-reviews have pegged them as not better in a statistically significant way than the placebo.
if you're willing to still give it a shot, see if your doctor is willing to prescribe tricyclic antidepressants or MAO-I's. mao-i's in particular are very effective but come with some dietary restrictions (certain cheese and fermented foods are off the table).
if you're willing to still give it a shot, see if your doctor is willing to prescribe tricyclic antidepressants or MAO-I's. mao-i's in particular are very effective but come with some dietary restrictions (certain cheese and fermented foods are off the table).
I've struggled, and am struggling, with the same thing. The only thing that helps me is to keep doing... something.
Also, talk to your wife about changing lifestyles if you haven't already. She might surprise you.
Also, talk to your wife about changing lifestyles if you haven't already. She might surprise you.
I had to try three or four before one helped, so my advice is not to give up too soon. Welbutrin ended up being a solution for me.
It is very clearly depression.
I'm leery of the meds, however. They have a tendency to be highly addictive.
Also, the underlying cause might be something else; the depression might be a symptom instead of the root cause.
Chronic fatigue syndrome is a real thing. Inflammation, or perhaps aftereffects of some viral infection.
Or loneliness. We are social animals, the animal is supposed to be part of a group. Yet we've created this society which worships the idea of the individual.
I'm leery of the meds, however. They have a tendency to be highly addictive.
Also, the underlying cause might be something else; the depression might be a symptom instead of the root cause.
Chronic fatigue syndrome is a real thing. Inflammation, or perhaps aftereffects of some viral infection.
Or loneliness. We are social animals, the animal is supposed to be part of a group. Yet we've created this society which worships the idea of the individual.
Agree, but in my experience medicine simply kept me from going too low. Some kind of therapy may also be needed, and a focus / prioritization on things that make you happy.
There's still significant value in not going too low. I have a sense of existential dread that makes me forever unable to end my own life, but that doesn't mean I haven't thought of it. I've been at points where I definitely did not want to continue living the way I was, but I didn't want to die. For those who don't have that sense of existential dread keeping them on this planet, not going too low can literally be a lifesaver.
Yes, meds don't solve the underlying issue. There is no happy pill. They just give you the boost you need to fix your life. This is shown by studies that show depression comes back after discontinuing meds, but not after discontinuing therapy.
When my partner took anti depressants they increased the need to sleep.
Mirtazapine will do that to a bit of an extreme. Escitalopram didn't, at least for me, in some ways it made it slightly more difficult to sleep. This is in my body, so everyone's mileage may vary. I found the massive drowsiness of mirtazapine so difficult to deal with that I ended up preferring the frustrating sexual side-effects that escitalopram has (and found it more effective for my depression anyway).
Lately, the buprenorphine injection I get once a month is all the antidepressant I need. Still has side-effects, but these are ones I'm very used to at least.
Lately, the buprenorphine injection I get once a month is all the antidepressant I need. Still has side-effects, but these are ones I'm very used to at least.
How much do you sleep? And do you track it or just estimate?
The single biggest improvement to my energy and happiness came from getting a sleep tracking device, and then making sure I slept around eight hours. (As opposed to being in bed for eight hours). I wake with no alarm, and have also started going to bed earlier since tracking this.
This may not be your issue, I see your diet and weight appear good. Could be some mental health issue or some other physical issue not currently diagnosed.
But, if you’re sleeping less than eight hours or are not actually tracking so you know you’re sleeping enough, it could be a big improvement to try doing both.
I have an apple watch and autosleep if anyone is curious about the combo.
The single biggest improvement to my energy and happiness came from getting a sleep tracking device, and then making sure I slept around eight hours. (As opposed to being in bed for eight hours). I wake with no alarm, and have also started going to bed earlier since tracking this.
This may not be your issue, I see your diet and weight appear good. Could be some mental health issue or some other physical issue not currently diagnosed.
But, if you’re sleeping less than eight hours or are not actually tracking so you know you’re sleeping enough, it could be a big improvement to try doing both.
I have an apple watch and autosleep if anyone is curious about the combo.
I think Covid made life a lot less interesting. Or, put a bit differently, I think that we quit doing a bunch of the things that made life interesting. And I think that is mentally wearing.
I don't know if, in your case, that's the whole answer. You might find it worth while to seek medical advice...
I don't know if, in your case, that's the whole answer. You might find it worth while to seek medical advice...
Related, I was just talking about why middle/high school years seem to last longer than now. The variety of the time spent was probably a factor (Playing in the band one day, focusing on decathlon another). Life is monotonous these days.
Yes, I have a theory that the perception of time is very closely matched with your perception of novelty. New things, extend the perception of time. Seeing new lands, new people, new experiences, all place landmarks in your memory that make time real. When the days just blurr into each other your brain has a very hard time perceiving the time that went by. All of a sudden, a year is gone. You think about that year, and it seems like it just flew by because well, you have no mental landmarks to remember.
This is why time moves so much slower as a kid. Everything is new then.
This is why time moves so much slower as a kid. Everything is new then.
Lately this has been on my mind. I do everything, diet, exercise, social interaction, etc. But I am still just tired sometimes, nothing seems to kick. Maybe my mind is telling me that this way of life is down trodden? Find a new path? Working alot has no value, and maybe I am missing out. Or I am just tired, and there is no where to go
Do those times you just feel tired for no reason happen to correlate with being after the times you ate carbs? I'm not suggesting that's definitely the issue, but people underrate simple physical explanations for stuff like this. Sometimes you have some deep seated insecurities and sometimes your body just isn't functioning but your brain isn't cognizant of it and can't realize that's the issue.
Funny you mention this, lately I have had a hunch that carbs could be something to eliminate from my diet. I havent been able to do it 100%, but I have kind of a checklist of things in my mind of ways and habits to change. Eating carbs is on there. I may give it a closer look
The keto diet is pretty forgiving. I did it for 2 weeks and aside from missing snacking and being annoyed that I had to check the carbs on everything (apples have a ton of carbs apparently-- who knew?) it was easy. All my normal meals are frying some meat in oil, plus steamed or fried veggies, plus a carb like noodles or rice. I just stopped making the carb and went heavy on the olive oil and voila. I didn't notice too much difference, energy-wise, as in I didn't notice that I became a different person full of energy like I see in some positive testimonials. So I haven't continued it. But those first few days after I went back to eating carbs I sure did notice the hit to my energy in the hours after eating them.
Mid 30s, When I started going to ~one meal a day (dinner), my sleep was better and I didn’t have the afternoon digestive tiredness.
I only have coffee for breakfast (black, dairy doesn’t feel great to me first thing), keep hydrated, if I eat a huge dinner (large salad,carbs,protein,fruit) it’s amazing how it lasts 24 hrs.
I do not go to the gym though (not sure if my eating habits would be compatible with being a gym goer, I do walk a few miles a day though).
I only have coffee for breakfast (black, dairy doesn’t feel great to me first thing), keep hydrated, if I eat a huge dinner (large salad,carbs,protein,fruit) it’s amazing how it lasts 24 hrs.
I do not go to the gym though (not sure if my eating habits would be compatible with being a gym goer, I do walk a few miles a day though).
I notice this a lot. But what can you do? I don’t want to go full keto.
You don't have to go full keto, and I don't. Just be cognizant as you eat that hamburger at lunch time that this is directly going to cause me to feel lethargic and bad for awhile this afternoon. If you still eat it, that's fair. Just being aware of the tradeoff was a step forward for me though.
The pace of life is accelerating year by year, I swear.
If not the pace then at least the stress level.
If not the pace then at least the stress level.
But the clock on life is ticking. I keep telling myself, dont stay still for too long. Keep moving.
Future Shock
Yeah that’s it.
You know when you’re doing something you really like all day, you’re tired and fall right asleep and get great rest. That’s when you know you’re doing it right.
You know when you’re doing something you really like all day, you’re tired and fall right asleep and get great rest. That’s when you know you’re doing it right.
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Does anyone in your family suffer from hypothyroidism? That, combined with depression (it's a spectrum) is what was getting to me. I've since changed some habits, I'm taking 1 small thyroid pill each morning and going to therapy once per week. I still feel tired and lacking in energy from time to time but I have improved.
Apart from great comments already posted, please read about "long covid". I'm not sure if it's officially recognized yet but it's a strange illness lately and a large number of people suffer from it. One of most important symptoms is chronic fatigue. I'm fighting it since last year and one thing I can say is that the fatigue is different from anything I experienced in my 43 year life. It's crippling and even getting up requires effort. Caffeine in large doses helps somewhat but only to an extent.
There's always been a "post viral fatigue syndrome" with many other viruses and it is a known phenomenon, maybe it's just a similar thing with Covid. Only it affects much more people I think. And most importantly you can get it after asymptomatic Covid, so you don't even know you had it.
There's always been a "post viral fatigue syndrome" with many other viruses and it is a known phenomenon, maybe it's just a similar thing with Covid. Only it affects much more people I think. And most importantly you can get it after asymptomatic Covid, so you don't even know you had it.
If you keep forcing it every day then eventually it gets easier. Listen to the audio book "Can't Hurt Me" by David Goggins. It will change your perspective on what your animal can take.
https://davidgoggins.com/book/
https://davidgoggins.com/book/
> If you keep forcing it every day then eventually it gets easier.
I can both validate it and warn that it may be dangerous. I thrived and grew by forcing myself through everything until burnout, and I've done it three times in my life. Developing a healthy sense, pattern and habit of rest is important too.
I can both validate it and warn that it may be dangerous. I thrived and grew by forcing myself through everything until burnout, and I've done it three times in my life. Developing a healthy sense, pattern and habit of rest is important too.
David Goggins, not Higgins. I got excited that this was from the rally driver :)
Is the article not the exact opposite?
Very late to this, but:
You sound like a machine built for a different set of circumstances. Wartime, or famine, or slavery; or most likely, a heavily religious society.
I would guess you’re mostly nonreligious. But you have a lot of mechanisms left over in your personal acculturation from when religion was important for your ancestors. You took out the formal religion, because that’s not needed so much these days, but still have a lot of underlying mechanisms, like a conviction that there is such a thing as an ultimate answer, which made sense when the accepted ultimate answer was God.
I would guess that you enjoy learning and regularly investigate new things, but one of the mechanisms that generates your motivation is actually an old outdated attempt to find God, which you are no longer trying to do. Rationally, you search for the limits of the set of ideas you’re currently investigating, find them, and move on, in accordance with modern liberal arts thinking. But there’s a twinge of disappointment because you were being driven partly by leftover religious mechanisms that were hoping for Ultimate Truth. The repeated disappointment of the old mechanism leads to tiredness, and a feeling that real meaning keeps not being there no matter how much you keep reading interesting things on the Internet. There may also be a buildup of resentment that your trust has been repeatedly betrayed.
Just a thought this morning. I recognize a lot of what you’re saying. My parents were missionaries and it has proven impossible to escape all of those influences.
You sound like a machine built for a different set of circumstances. Wartime, or famine, or slavery; or most likely, a heavily religious society.
I would guess you’re mostly nonreligious. But you have a lot of mechanisms left over in your personal acculturation from when religion was important for your ancestors. You took out the formal religion, because that’s not needed so much these days, but still have a lot of underlying mechanisms, like a conviction that there is such a thing as an ultimate answer, which made sense when the accepted ultimate answer was God.
I would guess that you enjoy learning and regularly investigate new things, but one of the mechanisms that generates your motivation is actually an old outdated attempt to find God, which you are no longer trying to do. Rationally, you search for the limits of the set of ideas you’re currently investigating, find them, and move on, in accordance with modern liberal arts thinking. But there’s a twinge of disappointment because you were being driven partly by leftover religious mechanisms that were hoping for Ultimate Truth. The repeated disappointment of the old mechanism leads to tiredness, and a feeling that real meaning keeps not being there no matter how much you keep reading interesting things on the Internet. There may also be a buildup of resentment that your trust has been repeatedly betrayed.
Just a thought this morning. I recognize a lot of what you’re saying. My parents were missionaries and it has proven impossible to escape all of those influences.
Friedrich Nietzsche has a similar outlook on society today. A good book I'd recommend: Warspeak: Nietzsche's Victory over Nihilism https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/55904256-warspeak
A very interesting perspective, thank you for posting it.
The key is to keep moving forward. Marion Countess Dönhoff had a great line about aging in an interview when she was in her 80s: "every day a little more self-discipline."
Dönhoff was an East Prussian who became an influential journalist and later newspaper publisher in W. Germany after the war. In her family, the attitude to life was basically shut up, deal with it, and keep going. She was an aristocrat in the best sense of the word.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_D%C3%B6nhoff
Edit: typo
Dönhoff was an East Prussian who became an influential journalist and later newspaper publisher in W. Germany after the war. In her family, the attitude to life was basically shut up, deal with it, and keep going. She was an aristocrat in the best sense of the word.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_D%C3%B6nhoff
Edit: typo
Do you have a source for that quote? I would love to know! Thank you.
I'm sad to say I don't. It was in a German-language interview and really stuck in my head. "Jeden Tag ein bisschen mehr Selbstdisziplin."
She wrote a memoir about her upbringing in East Prussia called "Kindheit in Ostpreussen." The English translation is entitled "Before the Storm: Memories of My Youth in Old Prussia." [1] It's a somewhat wandering story but the account of growing up in a Prussian aristocratic family on a huge estate is quite marvelous. That world--for better or worse--has perished almost without a trace.
[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/138357.Before_The_Storm
She wrote a memoir about her upbringing in East Prussia called "Kindheit in Ostpreussen." The English translation is entitled "Before the Storm: Memories of My Youth in Old Prussia." [1] It's a somewhat wandering story but the account of growing up in a Prussian aristocratic family on a huge estate is quite marvelous. That world--for better or worse--has perished almost without a trace.
[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/138357.Before_The_Storm
You've probably heard it before, but exercise will help. It does so much good for mental and physical health, it's basically mandatory.
After that, removing dopamine feedback loops (browsing the internet, social media, etc.) will help tremendously with motivation.
After reading a number of books on psychology and behavior it has become clear that the adaptability of humans works for and against us. If you browse the internet you adapt to that type of mental effort, where fast, shallow patterns of thought and action are rewarded. Alternatively, reading books, exercising, working on hobby projects, etc, all train you to subdue the desire for immediate gratification, in favor of future gratification, which is more healthy and rewarding.
After that, removing dopamine feedback loops (browsing the internet, social media, etc.) will help tremendously with motivation.
After reading a number of books on psychology and behavior it has become clear that the adaptability of humans works for and against us. If you browse the internet you adapt to that type of mental effort, where fast, shallow patterns of thought and action are rewarded. Alternatively, reading books, exercising, working on hobby projects, etc, all train you to subdue the desire for immediate gratification, in favor of future gratification, which is more healthy and rewarding.
Do you have money? Quit your job, go travel, go entrepreneurial pursuing something that moves you.
Living in some San Francisco apartment, building a career at tech companies making 6 figures a year is, once you have some money, a pretty crappy wheel-spinning way to live life, by some opinions.
Living in some San Francisco apartment, building a career at tech companies making 6 figures a year is, once you have some money, a pretty crappy wheel-spinning way to live life, by some opinions.
This might be an unwelcome suggestion, but tell your doctor. This sounds very like depression, which is quite treatable.
You need to know that there are at least six different illnesses all called depression. The only way known to figure out which you have is to try each treatment, in turn, to see which helps. Usually they start with one with few side effects, or that works fastest. Some people have more than one variety, or one plus anxiety, or attention disorder, or all three. (These might all be caused by industrial chemicals we are all exposed to nowadays, stuff our ancestors never encountered.)
If the drugs work, but have side effects, know too that the side effects will tend to pass, with time.
You need to know that there are at least six different illnesses all called depression. The only way known to figure out which you have is to try each treatment, in turn, to see which helps. Usually they start with one with few side effects, or that works fastest. Some people have more than one variety, or one plus anxiety, or attention disorder, or all three. (These might all be caused by industrial chemicals we are all exposed to nowadays, stuff our ancestors never encountered.)
If the drugs work, but have side effects, know too that the side effects will tend to pass, with time.
I know others have thrown out other things, but: Have you been tested for sleep apnea?
What you describe sounds much like how I used to feel.
What you describe sounds much like how I used to feel.
For a while, I thought it might be sleep related too. Even though I've always gotten plenty of sleep (tracked), I wondered if the quality of that sleep was no good.
So I had a formal sleep study done (where you bring home the thing and wear it).
They found nothing wrong.
So I had a formal sleep study done (where you bring home the thing and wear it).
They found nothing wrong.
Try avoiding distractions. I find that on days I go without the internet (other than for work) I become significantly less motivated and work is way harder to start. Not sure if that's even your problem but if it is then I hope this helps.
If you're constantly lethargic and tired, consider seeing an endocrinologist and having some tests done.
Take a 1 hour walk outside every day.
Your 'wasted' hour will be given back tenfold.
Your 'wasted' hour will be given back tenfold.
*when the sun is the highest in the sky. Shirt off, if you dare. Start slow (don't be stupid and burn yourself).
The energy is incredible. I walked about 20 miles this morning with the sun coming up before biking 6 miles to work and then back in the evening. And I know I'll have lots of energy to spare tonight.
Yes we are warm blooded animals but still very dependent on the sun and activity.
The energy is incredible. I walked about 20 miles this morning with the sun coming up before biking 6 miles to work and then back in the evening. And I know I'll have lots of energy to spare tonight.
Yes we are warm blooded animals but still very dependent on the sun and activity.
20 miles is just 6 miles less than a marathon, and would take over 6 hours at the normal pace of 5 km/h. Is that really what you manage to do in the morning before work? :-O
Thank you for catching me. No, that is not what I walked :)
So, um, was that a typo? Am I parsing your sentence wrong? Been waiting for an edit but it doesn't seem one is coming. :-)
20 minutes
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> good food
Everyone thinks they eat good food.
Food is the number one physical measurable input into our bodies. So it boggles my mind that nutrition isn't the most studied subject, alongside maybe the study of living a fulfilling life.
Changing my eating habits has changed my life for the better. It took kidney stones (not recommended) to get me here. But even my most obese and unhealthy friends like to proudly tell me the "healthy" things their eating, and I don't have the heart or patience to try to tell them anymore.
But if you find what works for your body, food becomes more of a tool for living your best life, and something you'll defend to protect yourself and to continue living that good life, which makes the right choices so much easier.
Now maybe that's not what you need to hear, but I know it's definitely true for some other people that are going to see this.
Everyone thinks they eat good food.
Food is the number one physical measurable input into our bodies. So it boggles my mind that nutrition isn't the most studied subject, alongside maybe the study of living a fulfilling life.
Changing my eating habits has changed my life for the better. It took kidney stones (not recommended) to get me here. But even my most obese and unhealthy friends like to proudly tell me the "healthy" things their eating, and I don't have the heart or patience to try to tell them anymore.
But if you find what works for your body, food becomes more of a tool for living your best life, and something you'll defend to protect yourself and to continue living that good life, which makes the right choices so much easier.
Now maybe that's not what you need to hear, but I know it's definitely true for some other people that are going to see this.
> Food is the number one physical measurable input into our bodies.
This is the single reason why everyone focusses on food.
It is not the biggest lever you have on your health / wellbeing. It is the easiest variable to measure and to play with.
From the research it is quite clear that apart from gross errors what you eat does not really matter to any outcome. Quantity matters, but eating more can be compensated by excercising more.
I think we have it completely backwards, the killers are: depression, burn-out and so on.
Their symptoms are : no energy to change the situation, loneliness, no motivation to move, eating too much/too many calories ...
This in the end leads to all kinds of physical diseases.
Maybe starting with what we eat is a good first step to regain control, but it is certainly not the most important part of the puzzle.
This is the single reason why everyone focusses on food.
It is not the biggest lever you have on your health / wellbeing. It is the easiest variable to measure and to play with.
From the research it is quite clear that apart from gross errors what you eat does not really matter to any outcome. Quantity matters, but eating more can be compensated by excercising more.
I think we have it completely backwards, the killers are: depression, burn-out and so on.
Their symptoms are : no energy to change the situation, loneliness, no motivation to move, eating too much/too many calories ...
This in the end leads to all kinds of physical diseases.
Maybe starting with what we eat is a good first step to regain control, but it is certainly not the most important part of the puzzle.
While I agree about other factors contributing, your missing how vital food is in the equation.
All of the things you mentioned are highly dependent on food. For example, high amounts of sugar will undoubtedly lead to depression and burnout, not to mention diabetes.
> starting with what we eat is a good first step to regain control
Yes, it is absolutely the first step. And it's one you have most control over. Focus on the things you can control.
All of the things you mentioned are highly dependent on food. For example, high amounts of sugar will undoubtedly lead to depression and burnout, not to mention diabetes.
> starting with what we eat is a good first step to regain control
Yes, it is absolutely the first step. And it's one you have most control over. Focus on the things you can control.
> Quantity matters, but eating more can be compensated by excercising more.
Eating a little bit more can be. Eating an extra 1k kcal per day cannot be, especially as you get older. I’m in my 30s and relatively fit, and I can only burn 14 kcal per minute for 45 minutes or so. Maybe I can do an hour if I pushed it, but even Olympic level athletes top out at 20 kcal per minute.
Eating a little bit more can be. Eating an extra 1k kcal per day cannot be, especially as you get older. I’m in my 30s and relatively fit, and I can only burn 14 kcal per minute for 45 minutes or so. Maybe I can do an hour if I pushed it, but even Olympic level athletes top out at 20 kcal per minute.
How did you get the 14kcal number? Are there devices that measure this?
I assume exercise machines where you can not cheat by leaning on something or pausing are somewhat accurate, such as stationary bikes or elliptical or rowing machines. So my estimate is from experience with those machines over the last 15 years, and all 3 end up averaging me at around the same 14 kcal/minute. But I’m no athlete, although I do have a pretty low body fat percentage.
Also, I misremembered the Olympic calorie amount, according to this NYTimes article, Olympic cross country skiers can do 30kcal per minute:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/23/sports/olympics/cross-cou...
> A typical elite cross-country skier will burn about 30 calories a minute during training — by comparison, a 155-pound person on an elliptical machine burns about 11 calories a minute.
Also, I misremembered the Olympic calorie amount, according to this NYTimes article, Olympic cross country skiers can do 30kcal per minute:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/23/sports/olympics/cross-cou...
> A typical elite cross-country skier will burn about 30 calories a minute during training — by comparison, a 155-pound person on an elliptical machine burns about 11 calories a minute.
As someone that loves doing research on this, you couldn’t be further from the truth. I agree the first priority is sorting out your mental health, but after that a quality diet has massive ramifications on your life.
>>> Quantity matters, but eating more can be compensated by excercising more.
A single donut can have as many calories as running for an hour. Unless you have fantastic genetics / young it’s incredibly difficult to out run a bad diet.
Then there’s the discussion of good calories vs bad calories. If your goal is to optimize well being, what you put into your body has an outsized impact on how you feel so it’d be crazy to not pay some attention to your diet.
>>> Quantity matters, but eating more can be compensated by excercising more.
A single donut can have as many calories as running for an hour. Unless you have fantastic genetics / young it’s incredibly difficult to out run a bad diet.
Then there’s the discussion of good calories vs bad calories. If your goal is to optimize well being, what you put into your body has an outsized impact on how you feel so it’d be crazy to not pay some attention to your diet.
If you have a cooperative microbiome, eating too much won't cause weight gain because you don't absorb it all. Eating too little of course is a better way to lose weight than exercise - that's required by thermodynamics.
The food we eat has an immense impact on how we feel, and certainly has an impact on mental health issues such depression, attention, emotional regulation, etc. Every single thing you eat is the substrates from which all of your cells are made. The old paradigm looked at food as just units of energy, but that is not the new paradigm. What we eat, how we move, our sleep quality, how we manage stress - these things have enormous implications on pretty much every single health metric you can imagine.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/nutritional-psychiatry-y...
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/nutritional-psychiatry-y...
> Everyone thinks they eat good food.
Yes, probably including you.
I am very aware of things like cooked spinach v.s. non cooked spinach. I pay close attention to what I eat, and make an effort not to fall into the traps of fad diets.
I eat a whole foods based, well rounded diet, that avoids known "gotchas" like aforementioned raw spinach. Oxalate are found in many of other "healthy" foods. I'm also very lean, but still pay close attention to the role of inflammation caused by insulin, and generally do my best to keep that down by avoiding carbs and sugar (though, not completely cut out, I am not keto).
Trust me, food is not the panacea of health that everyone espouses it to be. If you were dying of cancer, even the best diet on earth for you, may not save you. That said, a life of healthy eating is definitely a good idea and there's always the chance that I would feel worse, or simply die of a heart attack, if I weren't paying attention to my diet.
Diet is absolutely important to get in check, just like exercise. But it's all too often prescribed as THE solution above everything else. This often comes in the form of some revelation someone had, visa vi some weight lost, or some medical situation from their prior eating.
For some of us, there is no issue with weight, no medical problems, we cook all our own food (never eat out), eat well balanced whole foods, and yet still life is not magically solved.
Yes, probably including you.
I am very aware of things like cooked spinach v.s. non cooked spinach. I pay close attention to what I eat, and make an effort not to fall into the traps of fad diets.
I eat a whole foods based, well rounded diet, that avoids known "gotchas" like aforementioned raw spinach. Oxalate are found in many of other "healthy" foods. I'm also very lean, but still pay close attention to the role of inflammation caused by insulin, and generally do my best to keep that down by avoiding carbs and sugar (though, not completely cut out, I am not keto).
Trust me, food is not the panacea of health that everyone espouses it to be. If you were dying of cancer, even the best diet on earth for you, may not save you. That said, a life of healthy eating is definitely a good idea and there's always the chance that I would feel worse, or simply die of a heart attack, if I weren't paying attention to my diet.
Diet is absolutely important to get in check, just like exercise. But it's all too often prescribed as THE solution above everything else. This often comes in the form of some revelation someone had, visa vi some weight lost, or some medical situation from their prior eating.
For some of us, there is no issue with weight, no medical problems, we cook all our own food (never eat out), eat well balanced whole foods, and yet still life is not magically solved.
> that avoids known "gotchas" like aforementioned raw spinach
Serious question: what is wrong with raw spinach because I eat it all the time
Serious question: what is wrong with raw spinach because I eat it all the time
Oxalic acid [1]. Could cause kidney stones especially if combined with other factors that may predispose you to having them. Simply cooking the spinach can remove most of it.
Personally, I ate an amount of spinach that made me an outlier(think the maximum you could fit on a foot long subway sandwich often daily for a couple years, and that was also combined with other poor choices like gas station big gulp sodas.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid
Personally, I ate an amount of spinach that made me an outlier(think the maximum you could fit on a foot long subway sandwich often daily for a couple years, and that was also combined with other poor choices like gas station big gulp sodas.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid
Wait, what’s this about raw spinach?
Raw spinach, some nuts like cashews, and other raw health foods can be high in oxalic acid. This is something of an anti-nutrient, which at best tends to reduce absorption of nutrients and at worst can build up in the kidneys and cause kidney stones.
As with all diet data though, YMMV. Some people eat loads of yaw spinach and never develop kidney stones.
Certainly if you have a familiar history of them, you should avoid raw spinach. Cooking it reduces the oxalates.
As with all diet data though, YMMV. Some people eat loads of yaw spinach and never develop kidney stones.
Certainly if you have a familiar history of them, you should avoid raw spinach. Cooking it reduces the oxalates.
So... another case of "too much of a good thing?" I feel like the point comes up again and again... eat a variety of foods... everything in moderation? No single food is a cure-all or magically going to fix your problems. I'm sure if you eat too much of damn near anything, there will be some negative effects.
Yes. That's my take away after years of "paying attention" to diet and health. Countless articles read, videos watched, diets tried, trends analyzed.
Through it all, it seems a general rule of thumb is:
Eat whole foods. If it requires processing in a factory, avoid it. This includes many things that you might not intuitively think of. Vegetable oils, for example are a highly processed food.
Aside from avoiding processed foods, and eating whole ingredients... Yes, eat a variety of different foods. Eat vegetables, eat carbohydrates, eat meat. Just don't eat too much of any one thing, and if you can identify something that doesn't sit well with you, avoid it!
Through it all, it seems a general rule of thumb is:
Eat whole foods. If it requires processing in a factory, avoid it. This includes many things that you might not intuitively think of. Vegetable oils, for example are a highly processed food.
Aside from avoiding processed foods, and eating whole ingredients... Yes, eat a variety of different foods. Eat vegetables, eat carbohydrates, eat meat. Just don't eat too much of any one thing, and if you can identify something that doesn't sit well with you, avoid it!
Massive amounts of oxalates have some problems so people freak out about small amounts.
You want to steam most vegetables to make the cell walls break down (easier to digest and utilize nutrients).
Steaming is not enough, you need to cook in water and remove the water (at least for spinach and kale).
Spinach famously contains iron, but less famously also contains a substance that inhibits iron absorption. So IIRC, it actually lowers your iron, unless you blanch it and throw away the water.
Spinach famously was misreported to have iron. Somebody slipped a decimal point, and everybody after copied the mistake.
Me, I don't eat spinach anymore. Never liked it to begin with. I have eaten enough of it already to last me to the end.
Me, I don't eat spinach anymore. Never liked it to begin with. I have eaten enough of it already to last me to the end.
Spinach famously was misreported to be misreported to have iron due to the decimal point slip: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/03063127145356...
Nothing indicates that the decimal point error ever was made, but the account about it will most likely live a long and colorful life, just like its parent myth
Nothing indicates that the decimal point error ever was made, but the account about it will most likely live a long and colorful life, just like its parent myth
Spinach is a fictional plant, it was described by Linné as sort of a joke but then everyone just went with it.
But seriously, you described three layers of misconceptions in this comment thread, how is anyone supposed to know "the real truth" about anything food related, if spinach alone is such a hard subject?
But seriously, you described three layers of misconceptions in this comment thread, how is anyone supposed to know "the real truth" about anything food related, if spinach alone is such a hard subject?
I am corrected.
Apparently there is no documentary evidence why an 1870 measure of spinach's iron content was exaggerated. The paper cited does not explore whether it ever was exaggerated, or what its actual iron content then or now might be.
I read various reports indicating that modern vegetables have much less of various nutrients than older, slower-growing or smaller-yielding varieties, and have no idea how I might evaluate such claims. Maybe spinach harvested in 1870 had more iron than highly-fertilized 1930 varieties, never mind 2021 varieties no one, to my knowledge, has bothered to measure. Or maybe not.
Apparently there is no documentary evidence why an 1870 measure of spinach's iron content was exaggerated. The paper cited does not explore whether it ever was exaggerated, or what its actual iron content then or now might be.
I read various reports indicating that modern vegetables have much less of various nutrients than older, slower-growing or smaller-yielding varieties, and have no idea how I might evaluate such claims. Maybe spinach harvested in 1870 had more iron than highly-fertilized 1930 varieties, never mind 2021 varieties no one, to my knowledge, has bothered to measure. Or maybe not.
> Yes, probably including you.
Yes, I actually illustrate that in a sibling comment.
My point is that it's a practice.
And yes, your weakest link may not be food related. My suggestion is that, given that the body receives input from nothing comparable other than maybe the air you breathe, as a whole we don't pay enough attention to what we eat. In other words, Occam's razor points to food in most scenarios.
> Trust me, food is not the panacea of health that everyone espouses it to be
If "everyone" says something, doesn't that kind of make it true?
> too often prescribed as THE solution above everything else
No doctor every prescribed food as my solution. The spinach thing was more like a comment in passing. Maybe on a single page "take home" paper after surgery. I have been prescribed surgery twice, though. And both could have been prevented with food.
PS- suffer from recuring sinus infections? Quit mixing dairy and sugar (individually they're fine). And yes, that means no ice cream before bed. But if you do not want to quit, there's a survey for that!
Yes, I actually illustrate that in a sibling comment.
My point is that it's a practice.
And yes, your weakest link may not be food related. My suggestion is that, given that the body receives input from nothing comparable other than maybe the air you breathe, as a whole we don't pay enough attention to what we eat. In other words, Occam's razor points to food in most scenarios.
> Trust me, food is not the panacea of health that everyone espouses it to be
If "everyone" says something, doesn't that kind of make it true?
> too often prescribed as THE solution above everything else
No doctor every prescribed food as my solution. The spinach thing was more like a comment in passing. Maybe on a single page "take home" paper after surgery. I have been prescribed surgery twice, though. And both could have been prevented with food.
PS- suffer from recuring sinus infections? Quit mixing dairy and sugar (individually they're fine). And yes, that means no ice cream before bed. But if you do not want to quit, there's a survey for that!
Out of curiosity, what did you change after you experienced kidney stones? What was easy about it? What was difficult?
#1 change: actually paying attention to what your putting inside you.
Kidney stones were a long time ago now, I've been continuously evolving since, and I've been super lucky to have a lot of help with both the cooking and research along the way.
One thing I learned specifically from that incident was that:
Raw spinach != Cooked spinach.
Specifically, the former has a specific chemical that will cause kidney stones. This is problematic for someone on the subway diet who substitutes spinach for the lettuce, because, you know, spinach is healthier than lettuce... which is kind of true, until it isn't.
Edit: what was easy? Knowing the impact that little daily decisions can have (a few day stay in the hospital). Also, cutting out the soda was easy after experiencing that level of pain (the kind where things become a blur, you accidentally rip out IVs, sister passes out just from watching, etc).
Also, I've changed my diet regularly as information changes for the past ten years. Every single time I thought I was "being the healthiest I can be." That said, I'm not suggesting a specific solution. What I'm suggesting is becoming familiar with the practice of iterating on your eating habits to maximize your life (in more ways than simply extension).
Kidney stones were a long time ago now, I've been continuously evolving since, and I've been super lucky to have a lot of help with both the cooking and research along the way.
One thing I learned specifically from that incident was that:
Raw spinach != Cooked spinach.
Specifically, the former has a specific chemical that will cause kidney stones. This is problematic for someone on the subway diet who substitutes spinach for the lettuce, because, you know, spinach is healthier than lettuce... which is kind of true, until it isn't.
Edit: what was easy? Knowing the impact that little daily decisions can have (a few day stay in the hospital). Also, cutting out the soda was easy after experiencing that level of pain (the kind where things become a blur, you accidentally rip out IVs, sister passes out just from watching, etc).
Also, I've changed my diet regularly as information changes for the past ten years. Every single time I thought I was "being the healthiest I can be." That said, I'm not suggesting a specific solution. What I'm suggesting is becoming familiar with the practice of iterating on your eating habits to maximize your life (in more ways than simply extension).
There is something ironic about claiming to eat healthy and regularly changing your diet due to new information. I don't mean this in an offensive way, it's not your fault dietary advice keeps changing. It just aptly reflects how little we know about food and the effect it has on the body.
Nothing ironic at all.
That's how I treat anything that is important to me.
I like to ask questions. And the world is always changing. To think continuous change is "ironic" sounds problematic to me. I mean, that's why they little fat kid inside the large obese woman thinks it's still alright to eat cake for breakfast.
Edit: there is such a thing as eating right for your age!
That's how I treat anything that is important to me.
I like to ask questions. And the world is always changing. To think continuous change is "ironic" sounds problematic to me. I mean, that's why they little fat kid inside the large obese woman thinks it's still alright to eat cake for breakfast.
Edit: there is such a thing as eating right for your age!
I think the GP was referring to the irony of 'eating healthy' only to later find out that what was previously considered healthy is now considered unhealthy. Spinach a nice example of that - I've been eating it raw for ages thinking I was being healthy, had no idea about the potential problems.
Yes this is what I meant to say, thanks for the clarification.
Ugh, so you didn't learn anything apart from having yet another 'revelation'.
And that revelation is 'avoid raw spinach, but it's too late for me'.
You had Kidney stones. That does not make you a health Messiah, quite the opposite really.
And that revelation is 'avoid raw spinach, but it's too late for me'.
You had Kidney stones. That does not make you a health Messiah, quite the opposite really.
> That does not make you a health Messiah, quite the opposite really
Nice to see how you interpreted things, but that's all it is.
My point was alluding to the continuous practice.
And the proof is what I see in my and my partner's fitness compared to that of our peers. But don't take it from some random on the internet.
Lastly, yes it's a lot of hard work, and yes that's why you're avoiding it. Good luck!
Nice to see how you interpreted things, but that's all it is.
My point was alluding to the continuous practice.
And the proof is what I see in my and my partner's fitness compared to that of our peers. But don't take it from some random on the internet.
Lastly, yes it's a lot of hard work, and yes that's why you're avoiding it. Good luck!
I tried the whole30 diet for fun, and it changed my body quite a bit. I used to snore, but it completely went away when I stopped eating processed food. When I started again the snoring came back.
Yes, the snoring and sleep apnea is a big one.
It was so sad to see, but weight loss from cancer in obese people does the same thing (cure sleep disorders). If only those people could have realized that before their bodies degraded into cancer.
It was so sad to see, but weight loss from cancer in obese people does the same thing (cure sleep disorders). If only those people could have realized that before their bodies degraded into cancer.
Dealing with food would be so much easier if it wasn't one of our main sources of pleasure and relief.
Alas, it is not so. That's why adopting proper diet and nutrition is complicated.
Alas, it is not so. That's why adopting proper diet and nutrition is complicated.
> sources of pleasure and relief
So it can be. And I have food addicts in my family so I'm familiar with it. Have you tried cannabis?
So it can be. And I have food addicts in my family so I'm familiar with it. Have you tried cannabis?
I've adopted the opposite strategy: instead of constantly fighting against the pleasure in food, I have cultivated it. Expanded the horizons of my palate, chased amazing gustative experiences.
The result being that the immense majority of the food available to me is now "ok but not fantastic". I still take pride in being able to enjoy (almost) any food no matter how humble. But none bring me joy the way a rare fine dining experience will. And since I'm in no position to indulge on those on a regular basis, I'm never using food as a source of comfort and satisfaction.
TL;DR: appreciate and cultivate rarity (but try not being a snob about it)
The result being that the immense majority of the food available to me is now "ok but not fantastic". I still take pride in being able to enjoy (almost) any food no matter how humble. But none bring me joy the way a rare fine dining experience will. And since I'm in no position to indulge on those on a regular basis, I'm never using food as a source of comfort and satisfaction.
TL;DR: appreciate and cultivate rarity (but try not being a snob about it)
What kind of good food do you eat?
The kind I've iterated on for years to maximize my body.
I wish I had a good answer, but it's similar to exercise. The best food for you is the one that works for you.
I also highly recommend no-food (don't try to twist this). Fasting for various periods is undeniably beneficial for men and women past menopause (younger women should carefully research preventing doing any harm).
Rather than tell you exactly what I eat, I'll tell you that I aim to minimize blood sugar, most of the time(exercise, and simply trying to live a little can change this). And that I also give myself permission to eat outside my boundaries occasionally, though doing so often keeps me on track in the future because of the obvious negative outcomes (which are a lot easier to recognize when you have absolute control over what your ingesting).
The science of nutrition is complex, but I'm sure a lot of programmers would be intrigued by chemistry and equations involved in metabolism. It also changes the way you think about eating. I was fortunate enough to land myself in a tough nutrition class in college, which can look more like organic chemistry.
Edit: to satisfy the downvoters: I'm mostly keto, always low carb unless it's some occasion where I'd otherwise regret not participating. Organic, and well-treated animals are also a staple (and yes, a luxury not available to all).
There are really so many little things that if you or your partner aren't significantly interested in learning about it as a hobby then you're undoubtedly going to miss a lot.
Note: to anyone asking what exactly I eat, why? You don't even know anything about me. What if I'm an athlete? Then what I eat would make a sedentary person obese. Not to mention, VARIETY IS ESSENTIAL. Ideally I would eat every single good thing that's available to maximize my exposure to good things.
Good luck to you!
I wish I had a good answer, but it's similar to exercise. The best food for you is the one that works for you.
I also highly recommend no-food (don't try to twist this). Fasting for various periods is undeniably beneficial for men and women past menopause (younger women should carefully research preventing doing any harm).
Rather than tell you exactly what I eat, I'll tell you that I aim to minimize blood sugar, most of the time(exercise, and simply trying to live a little can change this). And that I also give myself permission to eat outside my boundaries occasionally, though doing so often keeps me on track in the future because of the obvious negative outcomes (which are a lot easier to recognize when you have absolute control over what your ingesting).
The science of nutrition is complex, but I'm sure a lot of programmers would be intrigued by chemistry and equations involved in metabolism. It also changes the way you think about eating. I was fortunate enough to land myself in a tough nutrition class in college, which can look more like organic chemistry.
Edit: to satisfy the downvoters: I'm mostly keto, always low carb unless it's some occasion where I'd otherwise regret not participating. Organic, and well-treated animals are also a staple (and yes, a luxury not available to all).
There are really so many little things that if you or your partner aren't significantly interested in learning about it as a hobby then you're undoubtedly going to miss a lot.
Note: to anyone asking what exactly I eat, why? You don't even know anything about me. What if I'm an athlete? Then what I eat would make a sedentary person obese. Not to mention, VARIETY IS ESSENTIAL. Ideally I would eat every single good thing that's available to maximize my exposure to good things.
Good luck to you!
You shouldn't be down voted. This is generally good advice. Human nutrition is still poorly understood and there is huge variation between individuals. The best that most of us can do is run our own n=1 experiments and determine empirically what seems to give the best results.
How do you empirically measure results for your n=1 experiment, where you are experimenter, subject, and outcome?
If I see comments providing diet advice with words like "undeniably", I lean toward downvoting them.
If I see comments providing diet advice with words like "undeniably", I lean toward downvoting them.
Obviously there's no way to conduct a high quality controlled experiment and eliminate bias. But you can play around with adding or removing certain foods from your diet. Look for correlations with how you subjectively feel, and objectively perform. You might find some effects that are large enough to be significant even with n=1. Or not.
Cool. So what kinds of good food do you usually eat?
Nuts, seeds, low-carb vegetables, fiber supplement, occasional fruits especially berries (exception is a avocado every day). No red meat. Fish or chicken or turkey 2-3 times per week. Occasional eggs. Fish should be wild caught and either salmon or small like sardines, herring, mackerel , etc. Probiotic and prebiotic foods. Limited dairy and only non-cow daily unless it’s A2.
Coffee and green teA but no caffeine after 2 PM. Organic as much as possible.
Coffee and green teA but no caffeine after 2 PM. Organic as much as possible.
Spot on, thanks.
What did you change?
Better food, more exercise, more relaxation... but I also wonder if it would have made any difference.
Yes. I'm only half OP's age but working out and eating well (well for me means much more) has made all the little aches I started to have in my 20s go away and made me much calmer, I can also sleep pretty much anywhere and at any time.
More interestingly though,
Me, and the animal I live inside.
there is no animal you live inside, this is not a meat vehicle for something else, your body is you, it's not some machine you merely inhabit. Its/your gut will affect your mood, its limitations are your limitations, being physically strong will make you feel strong and keep anxieties at bay.
Yes. I'm only half OP's age but working out and eating well (well for me means much more) has made all the little aches I started to have in my 20s go away and made me much calmer, I can also sleep pretty much anywhere and at any time.
More interestingly though,
Me, and the animal I live inside.
there is no animal you live inside, this is not a meat vehicle for something else, your body is you, it's not some machine you merely inhabit. Its/your gut will affect your mood, its limitations are your limitations, being physically strong will make you feel strong and keep anxieties at bay.
Yes! Weightlifting is probably the number one best thing you can do for your body.
Every time I stop, my quality of life drops like a lead weight.
I have a sort of internal battle over this, but I love watching the numbers go up. They can’t forever and they won’t, but for the time being I find slipping another 2.5-5lb onto the bar incredibly gratifying.
At the same time I know the numbers mean nothing and arriving, effort, and consistency are everything.
Regardless, apart from god sleep, pushing myself with barbell training is the single thing I can point to that dramatically improves my mental and physical health.
I have a sort of internal battle over this, but I love watching the numbers go up. They can’t forever and they won’t, but for the time being I find slipping another 2.5-5lb onto the bar incredibly gratifying.
At the same time I know the numbers mean nothing and arriving, effort, and consistency are everything.
Regardless, apart from god sleep, pushing myself with barbell training is the single thing I can point to that dramatically improves my mental and physical health.
Don't get hung up on the numbers. What's gratifying now also has the power to be very demotivating later.
Fall back to 75% or 50% every now and then and be conscious that it's not bad at all, but still progress.
I don't know where you are in your lifting career, but it pays 5x later on, when numbers don't matter anymore. You'll be amazed how quickly you can build strength back up after a break or injury or how much muscle is still "just there".
Fall back to 75% or 50% every now and then and be conscious that it's not bad at all, but still progress.
I don't know where you are in your lifting career, but it pays 5x later on, when numbers don't matter anymore. You'll be amazed how quickly you can build strength back up after a break or injury or how much muscle is still "just there".
You start lifting to look better, to attract women. You keep lifting for yourself, to get these numbers up. Finally, you lift for no reason whatsoever, because you cannot imagine not doing it. Every one of these steps is great.
Absolutely! That's my story right there. In my mind this is sort of the process of acquiring any kind of wisdom. We inadvertently discover so many good things, and eventually stick with it because it becomes a sort of intrinsic knowledge that it needs to be done in order to live a good life.
I don't think lifting weights would popularly fall into the category of being a wise thing to do, but I'm sticking to it. Conditioning your body is key to living your best life, and being healthy enough to help those around you live theirs.
I don't think lifting weights would popularly fall into the category of being a wise thing to do, but I'm sticking to it. Conditioning your body is key to living your best life, and being healthy enough to help those around you live theirs.
It's funny because I actually deadlifted the most I've ever had the day of my first date with my now girlfriend. It acted as a good nerve calmer. "If I can lift all this weight and have come this far, surely I can handle a first date" .
I agree completely. I guess I'm around 15 years in and I've had enough setbacks, mental and physical, to know that just making it from the bed in the morning to the barbell at some point in the day is excellent on its own. Regardless, I get a real kick out of that feedback - seeing evidence of my strength increasing.
> You'll be amazed how quickly you can build strength back up
You're not kidding. My most recent break was my longest, and I was dreading coming back to it. I felt like a hot sack of garbage, any exercise was awful, and I was soft as it gets. But maybe 2 months after I started up again, my lifts were not all that far from where I left them. I had no idea I had it in me. I guess I took almost 3 years off from any regular lifting (had a baby and life got away from me).
These days I don't really lift for anything other than strength and general well-being, though I started with a pretty explicit focus on building muscle, haha. I stick to a fairly basic 3x3 routine rotating a handful of compound lifts, then I've got a handful of calisthenics-based exercises I've come to really enjoy. Weighted pull ups, dips, push ups, some ring exercises, etc. I keep my reps low there too, usually between 5 and 10.
I really love 3x3 these days because I find I can go hard without overdoing it. I used to do a 5x5 routine and sometimes, shit, I just don't want the extra reps at all. I don't need them. I'm there to condition my body, not beat the hell out of myself. With 3x3 I'm arguably stronger than I've ever been, less muscular, and definitely less injured. I never got hurt too much, but those nagging pains and aches aren't as much of a thing anymore even though I'm older and shittier than ever. It's definitely an individual choice, though. Some people love the higher rep, lighter weight thing. I'm a slow, lazy, poorly motivated person who's pretty please if they just manage to show up.
> You'll be amazed how quickly you can build strength back up
You're not kidding. My most recent break was my longest, and I was dreading coming back to it. I felt like a hot sack of garbage, any exercise was awful, and I was soft as it gets. But maybe 2 months after I started up again, my lifts were not all that far from where I left them. I had no idea I had it in me. I guess I took almost 3 years off from any regular lifting (had a baby and life got away from me).
These days I don't really lift for anything other than strength and general well-being, though I started with a pretty explicit focus on building muscle, haha. I stick to a fairly basic 3x3 routine rotating a handful of compound lifts, then I've got a handful of calisthenics-based exercises I've come to really enjoy. Weighted pull ups, dips, push ups, some ring exercises, etc. I keep my reps low there too, usually between 5 and 10.
I really love 3x3 these days because I find I can go hard without overdoing it. I used to do a 5x5 routine and sometimes, shit, I just don't want the extra reps at all. I don't need them. I'm there to condition my body, not beat the hell out of myself. With 3x3 I'm arguably stronger than I've ever been, less muscular, and definitely less injured. I never got hurt too much, but those nagging pains and aches aren't as much of a thing anymore even though I'm older and shittier than ever. It's definitely an individual choice, though. Some people love the higher rep, lighter weight thing. I'm a slow, lazy, poorly motivated person who's pretty please if they just manage to show up.
I used to have this mindset that the only thing that matters are the numbers going up. This was probably due to Mr getting all gung ho about starting strength when i first started lifting. I think this has actually served to prevent me from getting motivated to lift nowadays. I still get this feeling in the back of my kind saying "what's the point if you're lifting only half of what you used to?" . I've slowly tried to transition to the mindset that lifting at all on a particular day is a success.
Same for me. I started lifting again a month or so ago and started just feeling better mentally. Then I just lost the motivation for a bit and have stopped for a few weeks. It's hard to put my finger on it but I just don't feel as good without lifting
For most benefit and minimum risk please do a health checkup before hitting the gym; especially if you never did a full checkup.
Sprinting is a good alternative to weightlifting. Worth giving a shot if you're hesitant to lift weights or don't have the equipment / gym nearby.
https://www.marksdailyapple.com/dear-mark-how-many-sprints-p...
https://www.marksdailyapple.com/dear-mark-how-many-sprints-p...
Bodyweight fitness is also a great way to start. Until you're pretty far along, it's about as effective for gaining strength as weights, and has other benefits (balance, flexibility, coordination, etc).
Lots of good info on the sidebar here: https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/
Lots of good info on the sidebar here: https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/
Darebee is another nice resource for bodyweight fitness. https://darebee.com/
But at the same time our minds are something sort of built on top of our monkey brains.
So-called "feral children" - people who didn't receive the appropriate attention in their early years to develop, among other things, language, are frighteningly less intelligent than their peers.
We're animals, but we're also something more, held up only through an unbroken chain of socialization.
So-called "feral children" - people who didn't receive the appropriate attention in their early years to develop, among other things, language, are frighteningly less intelligent than their peers.
We're animals, but we're also something more, held up only through an unbroken chain of socialization.
> there is no animal you live inside, this is not a meat vehicle for something else, your body is you, it's not some machine you merely inhabit.
I wonder how history will view such statements once we manage the ability to uncouple our humanity from our meat prisons.
I wonder how history will view such statements once we manage the ability to uncouple our humanity from our meat prisons.
I suspect we will find that those things are not as neatly separable as some would like to think.
Much of our humanity and ability to reason comes from our gut flora and various other parts of our body. Every year we learn a bit more about this complex relationship and how the brain is just one part of our consciousness and not the "CPU" as we used to believe so I become less convinced that we will achieve some kind of Matrix style integration within my lifetime. For what it's worth it seems most likely that we will figure out AGI before we lift consciousness into the digital realm and at that point it might be too late to go through the effort.
And since our gut flora influences our mind so much, and since our mind influences our body so much (see the physical effects of stress), we can't really consider what _happens_ to our body to be separate from our mind either. If our body and mind are intimately linked, so are our minds and the food we eat. Personally I think that the distinction between those things is just some conventional idea we have that enables our interaction with the world. Does nature itself imply an inherent separation and cutoff point between the body and mind, and thus the mind and the entire universe?
Do you have any evidence to suspect such a thing will happen?
I think it is much more likely that the "ghost in the shell" kind of idea will be seen as much more antiquated, and that it will be widely accepted that the body, mind, and indeed wider world are not really separate.
Just because you read it in a science fiction book doesn't mean it reflects what will actually happen.
> once we manage the ability to uncouple our humanity from our meat prisons.
I wonder how history will view such statements once we realise that our humanity and our "meat prisons" are not two different things.
I think it is much more likely that the "ghost in the shell" kind of idea will be seen as much more antiquated, and that it will be widely accepted that the body, mind, and indeed wider world are not really separate.
Just because you read it in a science fiction book doesn't mean it reflects what will actually happen.
> once we manage the ability to uncouple our humanity from our meat prisons.
I wonder how history will view such statements once we realise that our humanity and our "meat prisons" are not two different things.
I doubt that's the discussion we'll be having. The technical leap required is too far away.
Just like 'self-driving cars', people will spend more time defining to each other what self-driving means vs. what it actually is.
Just like 'self-driving cars', people will spend more time defining to each other what self-driving means vs. what it actually is.
> there is no animal you live inside, this is not a meat vehicle for something else, your body is you, it's not some machine you merely inhabit.
It always drives me crazy when people take the work of a poet or author literally and then pedantically hound any joy or meaning out of the words.
The point is that humans are animals, treat your animal well.
It always drives me crazy when people take the work of a poet or author literally and then pedantically hound any joy or meaning out of the words.
The point is that humans are animals, treat your animal well.
It drives me crazy when people get so upset over any kind of comment too. Why not take it literally? That's a totally valid interpretation of the writing.
Also, it's entirely your perception that it is "hounding any joy and meaning out of the words". For me, the idea of myself and my body being inseparable is much more joyful than the original post, which paints the mind more like a mental prisoner trapped inside of an animals body.
I'll take the interpretation of the comment you replied to, thanks!
Also, it's entirely your perception that it is "hounding any joy and meaning out of the words". For me, the idea of myself and my body being inseparable is much more joyful than the original post, which paints the mind more like a mental prisoner trapped inside of an animals body.
I'll take the interpretation of the comment you replied to, thanks!
> Why not take it literally? That's a totally valid interpretation of the writing.
She's a fantasy writer. Do you take her fantasy novels literally as well? Do you think she is actually riding around in her "animal" body like that alien in "Men in Black"?
> Also, it's entirely your perception that it is "hounding any joy and meaning out of the words".
Ummm, yes, of course it is.
> For me, the idea of myself and my body being inseparable is much more joyful than the original post
I also feel my body and mind are inseparable. But I don't think that Robb is proposing mind/body disassociation because I didn't read her literally. And, for all I know, maybe Robb does have mind/body disassociation and this is how she copes.
In fact, because I didn't read her literally, I think she may actually be in agreement with you.
Feel free to express your opinion!
> I'll take the interpretation of the comment you replied to, thanks!
Ok. I'm glad for you.
She's a fantasy writer. Do you take her fantasy novels literally as well? Do you think she is actually riding around in her "animal" body like that alien in "Men in Black"?
> Also, it's entirely your perception that it is "hounding any joy and meaning out of the words".
Ummm, yes, of course it is.
> For me, the idea of myself and my body being inseparable is much more joyful than the original post
I also feel my body and mind are inseparable. But I don't think that Robb is proposing mind/body disassociation because I didn't read her literally. And, for all I know, maybe Robb does have mind/body disassociation and this is how she copes.
In fact, because I didn't read her literally, I think she may actually be in agreement with you.
Feel free to express your opinion!
> I'll take the interpretation of the comment you replied to, thanks!
Ok. I'm glad for you.
You can make that point better if you cut the "inside" part and have the big reveal at the end be that you are the animal. Having the big reveal be that you're in the animal sets up a false distinction which doesn't help make the point.
You are totally entitled to that opinion and critique. I disagree completely.
Also, that would be a different essay that you wanted Robb to write, not the one that she did.
There are many people who disassociate themselves, the inner "person", from their body. I have a friend with MS who practices this explicitly. This article reminds those people that they must still take care of their animal.
Also, that would be a different essay that you wanted Robb to write, not the one that she did.
There are many people who disassociate themselves, the inner "person", from their body. I have a friend with MS who practices this explicitly. This article reminds those people that they must still take care of their animal.
I did the best I could with my body except now that I am 63 I have one regret: I wish I had more sex when I was able. I mean, I had sex but I could have had a lot more. It's seems dumb now to deny this basic pleasure for "reasons"
I've had a reasonably full life so far but my favorite memories are all sexual ones, so this is legit.
I wonder what you really mean by this. Do you wish to have had sex with a greater number of women? Or do you wish you just had more sex with your partner/s?
If it's the former, I believe this is something all men want deep down. Religion has done well to squash this desire and many deny they have it at all, but they do. But it's like chasing the dragon. I don't think you can ever really satisfy this urge.
If it's the latter, why did you not have more sex at the time? Did you want it at the time? Now I live with one partner I have almost as much sex as I want with a single partner. But it's a lot less than I used to have/want.
If it's the former, I believe this is something all men want deep down. Religion has done well to squash this desire and many deny they have it at all, but they do. But it's like chasing the dragon. I don't think you can ever really satisfy this urge.
If it's the latter, why did you not have more sex at the time? Did you want it at the time? Now I live with one partner I have almost as much sex as I want with a single partner. But it's a lot less than I used to have/want.
> But it's like chasing the dragon. I don't think you can ever really satisfy this urge.
I theorize that people who believe this haven't really tried. In my experience it's easier than it seems; definitely not an insurmountable task.
I theorize that people who believe this haven't really tried. In my experience it's easier than it seems; definitely not an insurmountable task.
I agree with this. I’ve had a very adventorous and fulfilling sex life in my teens and especially twenties, including polyamorous relationships, etc., and now I’m 33, in a monogamous relationship for close to three years,p and fully content. I don’t feel like I have anything to prove anymore sexually and it’s quite liberating.
A lot of older men like to be seen with young, pretty women for the status of it. That part of it, the status seeking, can never be satiated.
I would pay for it now if that was all there was. Why not? I pay for someone to fix my car. I pay someone to do my taxes. Some women view themselves as sex workers providing a service. I would take them up on that now if I were younger.
I had sex, and could have had more, but those would have been with partners I wasn't attracted to. Is that what you mean? Or did you actively pursue a lot of partners and decide, for whatever reason, to do it with just a few?
Hey you missed out on some STD risk too.
It looks like you might be being downvoted, but this is super valid. Herpes and HPV are extremely common among those who are sexually active. It's virtually impossible to avoid either and have lots of sex with multiple partners.
But obviously one can have lots of sex with a single monogamous partner though without any new risk of STDs.
But obviously one can have lots of sex with a single monogamous partner though without any new risk of STDs.
One of the two you mentioned has a vaccine that many get as a teen now and the other is an occasional rash for most carriers.
Obviously everyone should consider the risks associated with having sex with lots of partners but those two particular STD's are pretty low on that list of risks.
Obviously everyone should consider the risks associated with having sex with lots of partners but those two particular STD's are pretty low on that list of risks.
True. I only mentioned then because they're virtually omnipresent and are transmitted from skin to skin contact where a condom offers only partial protection at best.
Many other STDs need some sort of fluid transmission which is at least easier to avoid.
Also, the vaccine only protects from a few of the hundreds(?) of strains of HPV. It protects from those varieties that are most likely to cause cervical cancer, but generally not those that cause genital warts.
Many other STDs need some sort of fluid transmission which is at least easier to avoid.
Also, the vaccine only protects from a few of the hundreds(?) of strains of HPV. It protects from those varieties that are most likely to cause cervical cancer, but generally not those that cause genital warts.
As luck would have it, today is my birthday. I am now officially 72 years old. My approach to the inevitable is, while getting older is certainly no picnic at the park, it definitely beats the hell out of the alternative. So far at least...
Happy birthday! Hope it was a good one :). You've got the same birthday as Billy Joel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_9
P.S. fantastic list you've got here: https://every.sdf.org/some_external_stuff/music/.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_9
P.S. fantastic list you've got here: https://every.sdf.org/some_external_stuff/music/.
Thanks. Spent much of the day playing nethack, a traditional elderly pursuit I believe...
Happy Birthday from the Low Countries, and may many more follow.
Oh, and eyesight. Like, I had to up-scale the default font sizes on mobile and now all sites (this one especially) are harder to use.
Use responsive design people! You'll need it someday!!
Use responsive design people! You'll need it someday!!
I just plead to my fellow developers to stay well under 80 columns... my largest monitor in a readable font can fit 77 characters wide.
Word wrap and proportional fonts are your friend.
Contrary to what many developers believe, coding in a proportional font can be quite practical and enjoyable. And it fits a lot more horizontal text on the screen for the same visual font size.
There are some exceptions, of course, such as code dealing with bit patterns or matrices where you want things to align vertically.
But for most of the code most of us read and write, that isn't an issue. As a specific example, Python code formatted with Black is equally readable in a monospaced or proportional font.
And then when a line is too long - whatever font you use - word wrap fixes it. Even if word wrapping looks a little sloppy sometimes, it sure beats having to scroll horizontally.
Contrary to what many developers believe, coding in a proportional font can be quite practical and enjoyable. And it fits a lot more horizontal text on the screen for the same visual font size.
There are some exceptions, of course, such as code dealing with bit patterns or matrices where you want things to align vertically.
But for most of the code most of us read and write, that isn't an issue. As a specific example, Python code formatted with Black is equally readable in a monospaced or proportional font.
And then when a line is too long - whatever font you use - word wrap fixes it. Even if word wrapping looks a little sloppy sometimes, it sure beats having to scroll horizontally.
I kinda wish there was a version of Fira Sans with the ligatures from Fira Code.
I code with a monospaced front right now, but I agree with you that there's rarely a serious need for it, and proportional can be easier to read.
I code with a monospaced front right now, but I agree with you that there's rarely a serious need for it, and proportional can be easier to read.
I have a 27" 1440p monitor and a readable font has 400 characters width. What kind of monitor are you using my dude, are you legally blind?
How big is your monitor?
No joke. The font on my mom's phone is so large that buttons were "missing" from her parking app. I told her she had to be wrong, until I saw it myself. And that's also on a newer model galaxy note (big screen). She's in her 50s.
"Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing."
-- Redd Foxx
-- Redd Foxx
There’s something very comforting about vices.
A vice is a psychological safety net. The unknown unknowns are infinite, so you can always romanticize life without them, and the effect that would have. That gives you hope, and hope is extremely powerful.
A vice is a psychological safety net. The unknown unknowns are infinite, so you can always romanticize life without them, and the effect that would have. That gives you hope, and hope is extremely powerful.
Though much is taken, much abides; and though
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.You really should credit that which you quote.
(It's Alfred Lord Tennyson)
(It's Alfred Lord Tennyson)
I wish Robin Hobb all the years she desires and thank her deeply for gifting us with her stories so this animal could retreat to them when it needed a vacation from reality.
The animal separation part is confusing to me. Not because of any "mind versus matter" dilemmas but because of desires.
The author says that the animal wants to relax and lie down. But where is the distinction here? If you drink coffee when you feel the urge - that's on you, but if you relax when you feel like it - then it's the animal? Can it be that all those desires for working hard and having coffee and alcohol was part of the animal instinct?
I don't see how to decouple those, even thou I am sympathetic to the animal / inside animal distinction.
The author says that the animal wants to relax and lie down. But where is the distinction here? If you drink coffee when you feel the urge - that's on you, but if you relax when you feel like it - then it's the animal? Can it be that all those desires for working hard and having coffee and alcohol was part of the animal instinct?
I don't see how to decouple those, even thou I am sympathetic to the animal / inside animal distinction.
> The animal separation part is confusing to me.
Have you read her fiction, particularly the Farseer and Tawny Man trilogies? Her fantasy universe, and the main characters, involve bonding with an animal so completely that you are essentially one combined being that inhabits both bodies. An emotional peak of the series involve the slow process of aging, and eventual passing of one of the main characters, who happens to be a wolf that is bonded.
Her phrasing here isn't just whimsical musings, but a bit of creative writing that combines her reflections on aging with an homage to her fictional work and style. Her words and message here will connect deeply with those familiar with her work, or at least it did with me.
Have you read her fiction, particularly the Farseer and Tawny Man trilogies? Her fantasy universe, and the main characters, involve bonding with an animal so completely that you are essentially one combined being that inhabits both bodies. An emotional peak of the series involve the slow process of aging, and eventual passing of one of the main characters, who happens to be a wolf that is bonded.
Her phrasing here isn't just whimsical musings, but a bit of creative writing that combines her reflections on aging with an homage to her fictional work and style. Her words and message here will connect deeply with those familiar with her work, or at least it did with me.
Great explanation, thank you
> The author says that the animal wants to relax and lie down.
The author does not say this. She said her body needed this and she ignored that need.
The animal being talked about is her body and everything else is her regrets of not taking care of it. That's all.
The author does not say this. She said her body needed this and she ignored that need.
The animal being talked about is her body and everything else is her regrets of not taking care of it. That's all.
It's right there towards the end: She wishes she had treated her body as well as she would have treated any other animal.
Oh, I was close (guessed the animal), but I was kind of expecting an article about being tired of learning new Javascript frameworks (not making that up, I honestly was expecting that).
:-D
:-D
I felt just as good at 30 as I did at 20. I used to hike up and down mount Washington (6300 ft) in a day and feel fine the day after. I think I was 33 when I did 30 miles of hiking in the white mountains in one day.
I felt like my body took a corner somewhere in my mid 30’s though. (Right about when my kids were born). Now it feels amazing to sit down. My hair is finally falling out too. My feet hurt when I put weight on them in the morning. I put on 20 pounds that I just can’t seem to get rid of.
I felt like my body took a corner somewhere in my mid 30’s though. (Right about when my kids were born). Now it feels amazing to sit down. My hair is finally falling out too. My feet hurt when I put weight on them in the morning. I put on 20 pounds that I just can’t seem to get rid of.
Reminds me of Sailing to Byzantium [1]
O sages standing in God's holy fire As in the gold mosaic of a wall, Come from the holy fire, perne in a gyre, And be the singing‐masters of my soul. Consume my heart away; sick with desire And fastened to a dying animal It knows not what it is; and gather me Into the artifice of eternity.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_to_Byzantium
O sages standing in God's holy fire As in the gold mosaic of a wall, Come from the holy fire, perne in a gyre, And be the singing‐masters of my soul. Consume my heart away; sick with desire And fastened to a dying animal It knows not what it is; and gather me Into the artifice of eternity.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_to_Byzantium
Robin Hobb is amazing, her books which begin with Assassin's Apprentice really helped me through extremely stressful periods of life being able from time to time to escape from reality and into another world and then return.
I'm 35 and I don't feel any of the ravages of age that some people describe. I do exercise and eat reasonably well, but I don't think it's anything out of the ordinary. I have a desk job (programming). Am I unusually lucky? or just part of a silent majority that has nothing to complain about? Is doom just around the corner?
You are still comparatively young. Give it a few more years.
Well I am 40 this year and in the best shape of my life. I lost some flexibility in my lower regions but that's because I don't do taekwondo anymore, but instead switched to competitive running, cycling, and triathlon. 30 year old me would have wrecked 20 year old me, when I was in the Army, and 40 year old me can out-run, out-sprint, and out-lift 30 year old me handily.
What's my secret? Staying positive, staying disciplined, and HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY!
Men and women need to get on this train. You don't have to age ungracefully. Steroids are for everyone to enjoy - not just body builders.
What's my secret? Staying positive, staying disciplined, and HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY!
Men and women need to get on this train. You don't have to age ungracefully. Steroids are for everyone to enjoy - not just body builders.
you're competing in endurance sports while on HRT. hmmmm
I generally think it's just vocal minority.
I might be subjected to survivors bias (I travel around SEA) but most programmers I meet, while older than me, tend to be quite healthy and happy!
I'm getting closer to the magic 30s and I'm honestly quite optimistic. Had some lower back issues (because of sitting too much) that I took care off with a bit of exercise and I find experimenting with diets fun and effective. Surely it can't all go down-hill in the next 20 years?
There's just so many interesting things to do these days; if for some reason I'm unable to climb mountains anymore I can easily migrate to a different hobbie - there's no reason to attach yourself so much to a single activity. Maybe it's a perception issue? Change isn't all that bad.
I'm getting closer to the magic 30s and I'm honestly quite optimistic. Had some lower back issues (because of sitting too much) that I took care off with a bit of exercise and I find experimenting with diets fun and effective. Surely it can't all go down-hill in the next 20 years?
There's just so many interesting things to do these days; if for some reason I'm unable to climb mountains anymore I can easily migrate to a different hobbie - there's no reason to attach yourself so much to a single activity. Maybe it's a perception issue? Change isn't all that bad.
Programmers are one of the best paid groups + they can switvh jobs very easy.
This probably means good job (and life?) satisfaction.
There are alsp those who crunch for months doing computer games, but supposedly they do what they love.
This probably means good job (and life?) satisfaction.
There are alsp those who crunch for months doing computer games, but supposedly they do what they love.
I agree. There are a lot of very vocal sub 40 year olds who complain about their health/bodies. Myself being one of them. It's because we feel we shouldnt have to worry about this stuff until much later in life.
I'd wager than the majority of reasonably healthy people don't have any major health/body issues until their 40's when the metabolism starts to slow significantly and their former healthy lifestyles have to change to maintain the same level of health.
I'd wager than the majority of reasonably healthy people don't have any major health/body issues until their 40's when the metabolism starts to slow significantly and their former healthy lifestyles have to change to maintain the same level of health.
This hits home, I'm pushing 40 and I can hardly walk at the moment, probably because I was barefoot at home, on a hard floor, doing about 2500 steps a day (to the coffee machine and back). Before lock down I easily did 12000 on shoes... Then one day lock down ends and I go boxing, boom, over-strained feet. Now everything starts to ache because I haven't been able to move normally for months now. The animal requires maintenance, love, attention. So different from 20 years ago when it was always there when I needed it, always with 0 issues even if I skipped a night and went to work a full day after. I regret not caring for it better.
Regarding the feet: They think I wore down my fat pads, but only after I recently got x-rays and ultrasound investigations. Before that I was treated (treated is a big word for a bit of stretching and pain killers) as if I had plantar fasciosis.
Regarding the feet: They think I wore down my fat pads, but only after I recently got x-rays and ultrasound investigations. Before that I was treated (treated is a big word for a bit of stretching and pain killers) as if I had plantar fasciosis.
It's a pretty harrowing thought that given my age (barely still a teen) I may not live another 50 years. Between the mass pollution tainting our world, impending global warming and increased civil unrest, I figure the odds that my animal reaches 70 are not very high.
>Between the mass pollution tainting our world, impending global warming and increased civil unrest, I figure the odds that my animal reaches 70 are not very high.
You are living in approximately the safest time ever. The Internet has just made civil unrest visible when it would just be page 3 in a newspaper before that you wouldn't care about.
People living in the 80s in the US were in a war-zone by today's standard. Lead was in the paint and the gas not long before that.
You are living in approximately the safest time ever. The Internet has just made civil unrest visible when it would just be page 3 in a newspaper before that you wouldn't care about.
People living in the 80s in the US were in a war-zone by today's standard. Lead was in the paint and the gas not long before that.
> You are living in approximately the safest time ever.
Aside from the steadily growing number of natural disasters happening every year.
Aside from the steadily growing number of natural disasters happening every year.
Are the numbers growing in absolute terms, or is the reported disasters that are growing? Before satellites, 24-hour news, the internet and social-media + camera phones, a lot of natural disasters went unreported. Now you will find clips of a disaster with two dozen different viewpoints, before, during and after, all in high resolution[1]. So what decades ago would have been a short, nondescript page-3 article about tragedy at an exotic place halfway around the world, is now gripping TV (with very high ratings) in the present day.
1. Checkout Forensic Architecture's reconstructed timeline of the Beirut explosion. https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/beirut-port-...
1. Checkout Forensic Architecture's reconstructed timeline of the Beirut explosion. https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/beirut-port-...
Yeah, I’d seen that one. I wouldn’t consider the Beirut explosion a natural disaster though ;)
I think that, due to global warming, the actual number is increasing.
I think that, due to global warming, the actual number is increasing.
Fair point - but that was a neat example of the kind of coverage modern-day disaster get. The Puebla earthquake also had countless videos, but none were curated in one package like the Beirut explosion.
I'm in my 50's when I was your age we were all going to destroy each other with a nuclear war. Relax, it probably won't happen, all these problems get sorted out, (until they don't, then it doesn't matter).
> all these problems get sorted out, (until they don't, then it doesn't matter)
Problems can have very bad consequences without literally killing us all.
Problems can have very bad consequences without literally killing us all.
The environment likely has many less free toxins than it did when the author of the link was a teen.
We have things to be concerned about (PFAS and microplastics for instance), but there are a bunch of areas where massive progress has been made in the last 50 years.
We have things to be concerned about (PFAS and microplastics for instance), but there are a bunch of areas where massive progress has been made in the last 50 years.
PFAS were mass manufactured during ww2 for missile and aero- o-rings, so she survived that too.
Public health says biggest issue today is overconsumption, e.g. almost 50% obesity rates. For environmental concerns that we have control over, PM2.5 is my top (asthma, etc.)
Public health says biggest issue today is overconsumption, e.g. almost 50% obesity rates. For environmental concerns that we have control over, PM2.5 is my top (asthma, etc.)
Between the news, being told by my parents that the Soviets could bomb us at any time and being poor I thought that I wouldn't live past 30, and now in my fifties (with multiple heart and lung issues) I wish I had made better choices; especially about smoking (don't) and diet.
My advice would be to nourish and exercise your animal with the assumption that you'll reach 80.
My advice would be to nourish and exercise your animal with the assumption that you'll reach 80.
Consume less media. Your chances of making it to 70 if you watch out for cars and take basic care of your health are extremely high.
Stop watching cable news and listening to the prognostications of celebrities who got where they are through their looks or ability to act.
The biggest problem we have today is that kids have no context that tells them how great they have it, so they're like putty in the hands of those who would use them to gain political power. Like some kind of emotional vampire, those vested political interests gain power from your fear and your willingness to be mobilized by it.
Most of us who have a few decades on you would gladly take another 70 years of youthful existence to experience life and see where this world goes next.
The biggest problem we have today is that kids have no context that tells them how great they have it, so they're like putty in the hands of those who would use them to gain political power. Like some kind of emotional vampire, those vested political interests gain power from your fear and your willingness to be mobilized by it.
Most of us who have a few decades on you would gladly take another 70 years of youthful existence to experience life and see where this world goes next.
In just the past 5 years, men and women both younger (and much older) than you have travelled by foot across multiple nations' borders, looking for one that would take them in. Yes, you may die in the events of the future, but don't underestimate your survival instinct.
I think genetics is a better indicator.
In my line, male smokers/heavy drinkers die 20+ years earlier. My dad and brother died in poor health at 58 and 59 respectively. The men who didn't serially abuse themselves lived into their 70s to late 80s - generally on their own.
In my line, male smokers/heavy drinkers die 20+ years earlier. My dad and brother died in poor health at 58 and 59 respectively. The men who didn't serially abuse themselves lived into their 70s to late 80s - generally on their own.
I’ve got an easy way to solve those issues for you: throw out your TV.
Don't most people get their news over their phone or tablet these days? Throwing those out would probably have a professional cost.
I mean, you're not wrong, the best thing one can do for their mental health is avoid social media and current events. But it may not always be completely practical.
I mean, you're not wrong, the best thing one can do for their mental health is avoid social media and current events. But it may not always be completely practical.
Wow. This is fantastic writing. I’m not a big reader, and I was unaware of Robin Hobb.
This definitely makes me want to read more of her stuff though. Kudos!
This definitely makes me want to read more of her stuff though. Kudos!
That’s one of the most surprising and unwelcome parts of getting older .... being tired.
It’s started at about 51 years old. Going to bed early, feeling so tired at the end of the day, seeing 9pm as “late”.
Not having the energy of earlier days.
I’m otherwise healthy but so damn tired all the time.
It’s started at about 51 years old. Going to bed early, feeling so tired at the end of the day, seeing 9pm as “late”.
Not having the energy of earlier days.
I’m otherwise healthy but so damn tired all the time.
> It slept only when I no longer needed its labor at the end of a long day. Day after day of steady work, night sleep sacrificed for more work; It didn't seem to mind
No problem, we can still extract a little more shareholder value. Simply turn them to to glue [1]
[1]: https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/animalfarm/section9/
No problem, we can still extract a little more shareholder value. Simply turn them to to glue [1]
[1]: https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/animalfarm/section9/
For fans of Robin Hobb, I'd suggest looking into her works written under her real name, Megan Lindholm. I highly suggest, Wizard of the Pigeons.
The unfortunate truth is that the things you can't control that effect your lifespan far outnumber and swamp the things you can. I hope as a technological civilization we can eventually change that but it's not going to be done by eating better or not staying up working late.
I'm 29 and my lower back already has arthritis and stenosis. I don't expect to make it to 65.
28 with the neck of a 70 year old. Stenosis sucks. I hope for medical advancements that will make my life bearable when I'm 70.
A good writing and advice.
Reminded me that.
Friend! The body and body of a human being are like an animal held by a soldier from the assets. Just as that soldier is obliged to feed and serve that animal, the human being is also obliged to feed that body. Mesnevi-i Nuriye
Friend! The body and body of a human being are like an animal held by a soldier from the assets. Just as that soldier is obliged to feed and serve that animal, the human being is also obliged to feed that body. Mesnevi-i Nuriye
This has always been my biggest fear: a slowly fading mind trapped in a more rapidly fading body.
I feel this way at 41, some kind of ME/CFS but need to get diagnosed (or sufficient lack of diagnosis). I'd say when I have energy I can be like 30, but it's limited and I am soon 80 again. A lot of rest I'm back to 30.
I try to think of it as restriction inspires creativity. What kind of side hussle can I do to make money? Well one that doesn't involve managing people, raising money, or even too much coding. I am now making a small income selling lines on eBay!
I try to think of it as restriction inspires creativity. What kind of side hussle can I do to make money? Well one that doesn't involve managing people, raising money, or even too much coding. I am now making a small income selling lines on eBay!
I am unfamiliar with Robin Hobb, but I thoroughly enjoyed this short read. Now I see that she has books and she may have inspired me to get back into reading books.
I’m 26 and barely functional. Pushed too hard in sport in HS (swimming), then too hard in college. Got hired at one of the big tech out of college, but was so burnt out that I couldn’t do the work and quit after a year. Only Adderall gives me some life ... for about an hour per dose (prescribed). I’ve been relaxing at home with my parents for two years, but I still feel like a zombie.
Loved Robin Hobb when I was a kid. I read a LOT of fantasy back then and she was up the top of the list next to GRRM for me.
The closest thing to traditional fantasy I have read in a very long time is Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe, and now I am bit broken trying to chase a similar hit. If anyone has any recommends to scratch the post BOTNS itch please do share.
The closest thing to traditional fantasy I have read in a very long time is Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe, and now I am bit broken trying to chase a similar hit. If anyone has any recommends to scratch the post BOTNS itch please do share.
Some of my favorite Wolfe work is his Latro series. It takes place in antiquity but is fairly fantastical.
It's a very different setting, but tonally similar in some ways. A lot of ancient cultural and religious stuff is key to the plot but not explained (and often the protagonist is lost too for reasons that will be obvious when you start) so you get that same backstory-detective experience when reading.
It also takes the unreliable narrator trope to weird new lengths even by Wolfe's standards. I won't get into the details for spoiler reasons but the narrator is unwittingly unreliable for reasons outside of his control but is fully aware of this state. While the reader regularly has information that the protagonist should have but no longer does. The prose mechanics of how this is achieved is wonderful.
It's a very different setting, but tonally similar in some ways. A lot of ancient cultural and religious stuff is key to the plot but not explained (and often the protagonist is lost too for reasons that will be obvious when you start) so you get that same backstory-detective experience when reading.
It also takes the unreliable narrator trope to weird new lengths even by Wolfe's standards. I won't get into the details for spoiler reasons but the narrator is unwittingly unreliable for reasons outside of his control but is fully aware of this state. While the reader regularly has information that the protagonist should have but no longer does. The prose mechanics of how this is achieved is wonderful.
BOTNS is inspired by Vance's Dying Earth tales. If you haven't read them, I strongly recommend them. In fact, anything by Vance is great, my favorite being his Lyonesse Trilogy. His stories certainly do not have the depth of BOTNS, but the characters are great, the stories are fun, and his prose is unique and extremely enjoyable, at least by me.
Never thought of reading Vance. Thanks!
The animal is old and secretly yearns to be young. Its the nature of the beast.
> ... it is the only animal I have ever treated this way.
I wonder if that is actually true. I am thinking about this video and how we humans are treating all the other animals on this planet:
https://youtu.be/NxvQPzrg2Wg?t=165
Sure the text is about something different, but at times I do wonder how cruel we are and how little we think about it. I like to imagine seeing some aliens doing to us what we are doing to all the animals.
I wonder if that is actually true. I am thinking about this video and how we humans are treating all the other animals on this planet:
https://youtu.be/NxvQPzrg2Wg?t=165
Sure the text is about something different, but at times I do wonder how cruel we are and how little we think about it. I like to imagine seeing some aliens doing to us what we are doing to all the animals.
So did Hobb inspire Harry Potter? Did Robert Jordan inspire Hobb? I see so many parallels sometimes.
I would guess that Ursula Leguin's "A Wizard of Earthsea" inspired both.
I was convinced this article was about the experience of being in your 40s, until I got to the end.
70? I'll be 41 in a few weeks and that's me now :(
[deleted]
Well written piece
> Would I have fed a beloved dog stimulants to keep it working when it needed sleep?
We do that to other people/animals all the time. Overcrowded, throughput optimized animal farms. Amazon warehouses. Pilots.
We do that to other people/animals all the time. Overcrowded, throughput optimized animal farms. Amazon warehouses. Pilots.
For many people, there's a lot they can do to turn back the clock if they wish to do so. Sometimes it's just knowing what's possible.
In my thirties, I was so consumed with career that I let my health go, I was very overweight, didn't exercise and just put all my focus into work and getting ahead. I developed all types of health problems and pictures of me from that time look like a fat old baby with a beard. It didn't help that I was still wearing clothes from the 90's. Quite embarrassing and I keep pictures from that era buried deep deep below the earth's mantle :)
At age 40, I was recently out of a long-term relationship and moved to a new place and decided to get my health in order. I fixed my diet, started working out, updated my wardrobe, prioritized sleep, etc.
Over the next year, I dropped the extra weight, put on quite a bit of muscle, dressed for the correct era, and overall re-made myself.
A nice surprise was that losing weight and getting in shape resolved nearly all my health issues. I felt like I was in my twenties again - which was a small miracle since I felt like I was a senior citizen in my thirties.
Naturally, my mood and confidence improved. I was dating again, and quickly realized that sexiness-gap is much more of a factor than age-gap. If there's no age-gap, but you're waaaay less sexy than someone else, society will have a problem with it. But even if there's a large age gap, and you are both at similar levels of "sexy", then society accepts it quite readily. Not saying that is good or bad - it's just how our modern society seems to be and was something surprising to me.
Here are some things that helped me:
* Set the barrier to working out as low as possible. I used resistance-bands at home. It's surprising how much muscle you can put on with resistance-bands. Set yourself up for success - it's a much lower hurdle to working out if you can just roll out of bed and workout in your underwear while listening to music/audiobook/etc. You can get super heavy-duty bands that even bodybuilders will struggle with - so don't think you have to go to the gym to put on significant muscle. You don't need to make a big financial investment here - your muscles will grow when working against significant resistance and they don't really care how they get it - just that they get it in sufficient volume and consistency.
* Ignore fad diets and follow only science/evidence based programs. The best I've found are "Renaissance Periodization" and Jeff Nippard. You want to follow those who are non-religious about any particular approach and willing to adjust their approach purely based on the best studies. I wasted soooo much time following crazy diets and fad workouts before I found good reliable data to work with, and that made all the difference.
* Focus on the 99% that matters for diet and exercise. The essentials are very simple. But if you're looking for info on youtube and other places, the majority of videos/articles are focusing on optimizing the 1%. So you can waste a lot of time worrying about the 1% that matters very little and miss the 99% that matters immensely. Remember that fitness experts often get bored of focusing on the basics and will want to constantly explore the exotic fringes. Ignore the exotic fringes - they will be a huge waste of your time unless you are an elite athlete competing in world-class competitions.
* Track what you eat in a calorie/macro counter app - at least until you get reliable intuition about it. I resisted this for a long time, but when I finally did it, I realized that my diet was insane. I was 900 calories one day and 4000 calories another day. My intuition about food and calories was terrible. It wasn't until I started counting calories that I realized what was what. Figuring out my maintenance calories also helped me to keep my energy levels more constant (my 900 calorie days were, non-surprisingly, the days I felt like a wet bag of sand).
* For style, I found Pinterest to be a surprisingly good resource. If you find a style you like that is contemporary and works well for your age, body-type, etc, then you can find thousands of photos that provide good examples. Save all the ones you like and then go through them and look for patterns. Pay attention to colors, fit, etc. Start replacing your current wardrobe with the most common items that work well in the pictures. Observe what is working for others that are similar to you, and start modeling your style after them. This may feel a bit "vain" - but remember, you're not doing anyone any favors by showing up in poor style - do it for others if that helps you overcome that mental hurdle.
* Be patient and gentle with yourself. Taking a note from the parent article: If you notice your dog got fat and out of shape, would you whip him and shame him, or gently encourage him and make it fun to exercise? Treat yourself at least as good as a dog you love. This will take time. The changes will be extremely subtle in the short-term, but will make a big difference long-term. Loving your inner animal will ensure it goes as fast as possible. Shaming or punishing your inner animal will only slow things down and cause you to resent the process. Be creative - make it fun - only boring people get bored.
Most people let themselves atrophy as they age - so you may be surrounded by bad examples that will depress you about aging. Focus instead on the examples of people who are active, growing, and living amazing lives well into their 80's. Then the future of aging won't seem so dark.
In my thirties, I was so consumed with career that I let my health go, I was very overweight, didn't exercise and just put all my focus into work and getting ahead. I developed all types of health problems and pictures of me from that time look like a fat old baby with a beard. It didn't help that I was still wearing clothes from the 90's. Quite embarrassing and I keep pictures from that era buried deep deep below the earth's mantle :)
At age 40, I was recently out of a long-term relationship and moved to a new place and decided to get my health in order. I fixed my diet, started working out, updated my wardrobe, prioritized sleep, etc.
Over the next year, I dropped the extra weight, put on quite a bit of muscle, dressed for the correct era, and overall re-made myself.
A nice surprise was that losing weight and getting in shape resolved nearly all my health issues. I felt like I was in my twenties again - which was a small miracle since I felt like I was a senior citizen in my thirties.
Naturally, my mood and confidence improved. I was dating again, and quickly realized that sexiness-gap is much more of a factor than age-gap. If there's no age-gap, but you're waaaay less sexy than someone else, society will have a problem with it. But even if there's a large age gap, and you are both at similar levels of "sexy", then society accepts it quite readily. Not saying that is good or bad - it's just how our modern society seems to be and was something surprising to me.
Here are some things that helped me:
* Set the barrier to working out as low as possible. I used resistance-bands at home. It's surprising how much muscle you can put on with resistance-bands. Set yourself up for success - it's a much lower hurdle to working out if you can just roll out of bed and workout in your underwear while listening to music/audiobook/etc. You can get super heavy-duty bands that even bodybuilders will struggle with - so don't think you have to go to the gym to put on significant muscle. You don't need to make a big financial investment here - your muscles will grow when working against significant resistance and they don't really care how they get it - just that they get it in sufficient volume and consistency.
* Ignore fad diets and follow only science/evidence based programs. The best I've found are "Renaissance Periodization" and Jeff Nippard. You want to follow those who are non-religious about any particular approach and willing to adjust their approach purely based on the best studies. I wasted soooo much time following crazy diets and fad workouts before I found good reliable data to work with, and that made all the difference.
* Focus on the 99% that matters for diet and exercise. The essentials are very simple. But if you're looking for info on youtube and other places, the majority of videos/articles are focusing on optimizing the 1%. So you can waste a lot of time worrying about the 1% that matters very little and miss the 99% that matters immensely. Remember that fitness experts often get bored of focusing on the basics and will want to constantly explore the exotic fringes. Ignore the exotic fringes - they will be a huge waste of your time unless you are an elite athlete competing in world-class competitions.
* Track what you eat in a calorie/macro counter app - at least until you get reliable intuition about it. I resisted this for a long time, but when I finally did it, I realized that my diet was insane. I was 900 calories one day and 4000 calories another day. My intuition about food and calories was terrible. It wasn't until I started counting calories that I realized what was what. Figuring out my maintenance calories also helped me to keep my energy levels more constant (my 900 calorie days were, non-surprisingly, the days I felt like a wet bag of sand).
* For style, I found Pinterest to be a surprisingly good resource. If you find a style you like that is contemporary and works well for your age, body-type, etc, then you can find thousands of photos that provide good examples. Save all the ones you like and then go through them and look for patterns. Pay attention to colors, fit, etc. Start replacing your current wardrobe with the most common items that work well in the pictures. Observe what is working for others that are similar to you, and start modeling your style after them. This may feel a bit "vain" - but remember, you're not doing anyone any favors by showing up in poor style - do it for others if that helps you overcome that mental hurdle.
* Be patient and gentle with yourself. Taking a note from the parent article: If you notice your dog got fat and out of shape, would you whip him and shame him, or gently encourage him and make it fun to exercise? Treat yourself at least as good as a dog you love. This will take time. The changes will be extremely subtle in the short-term, but will make a big difference long-term. Loving your inner animal will ensure it goes as fast as possible. Shaming or punishing your inner animal will only slow things down and cause you to resent the process. Be creative - make it fun - only boring people get bored.
Most people let themselves atrophy as they age - so you may be surrounded by bad examples that will depress you about aging. Focus instead on the examples of people who are active, growing, and living amazing lives well into their 80's. Then the future of aging won't seem so dark.
I said that in another thread already but 1mg selegiline daily is worth a try, it shows spectacular results in rodents and at worst don't harm humans while restoring dopamine levels.
[deleted]
Humanity needs to put a few hundred billion dollars a year into basic medical research, and in particular, in anti-aging research.
It could lead to advances that save orders of magnitude more lives, and add orders of magnitude more disability-free life years, than everything that is achieved by all the spending on healthcare taking place right now worldwide.
It could lead to advances that save orders of magnitude more lives, and add orders of magnitude more disability-free life years, than everything that is achieved by all the spending on healthcare taking place right now worldwide.
[deleted]
I’m waiting for the news that PETA activists have captured and euthanized Robin Hobb to end his suffering. After spaying him, of course.
Her.
I believe Hobb identifies as male.
Really? First I hear of it. I was about to write this comment as all "Oops, sorry, not intentional"... But then I got curious and checked around a little, and my current best guess is that you're mistaken:
1) Always only mentioned as female in articles, including by presumably "woke" sources like in an interview at WorldCon75 in 2017.
2) The Wikipedia bio page is chock full of "she" and "her", not a whiff of anything else on the talk page either.
3) Seems to me to sport a "traditionally female" look as far as hairstyle and clothing goes in photos.
4) Both personal web pages feature a traditional nuclear family with children, grandchildren, and "Fred", presumably the husband (and father / grandfather).
So I believe she doesn't.
1) Always only mentioned as female in articles, including by presumably "woke" sources like in an interview at WorldCon75 in 2017.
2) The Wikipedia bio page is chock full of "she" and "her", not a whiff of anything else on the talk page either.
3) Seems to me to sport a "traditionally female" look as far as hairstyle and clothing goes in photos.
4) Both personal web pages feature a traditional nuclear family with children, grandchildren, and "Fred", presumably the husband (and father / grandfather).
So I believe she doesn't.
Well, now I’m embarrassed. I had been operating (apparently for decades) on the assumption that Hobb was male. Which is pretty bloody sexist on my part. I apologize to you and M. Hobb. (I interpreted the “he” correction as a reference to my use of the word spay, not bothering to confirm that it was made in earnest. The “identifies as” was meant as a weak joke. Which seems to have spectacularly failed. Again, sorry.
Hey, nothing to be sorry about. You learned something, and so did I: Even though my a priori assumption was closer to the truth, getting confirmation is also worth something. It's a win-win -- or, if someone reading this exchange also learned something new, a win-win-win.
> unable to find a comfortable position for sleep
Could this problem be solved with an advanced motorized bed that allows you to configure the surface on which you rest?
Could this problem be solved with an advanced motorized bed that allows you to configure the surface on which you rest?
I think it is just to do with restlessness, and not the bed. When you are proper tired you can fall asleep anywhere in any position.
Only if you're using "proper tired" to mean exhausted. Restlessness does not only come from not being tired yet. It's entirely possible to be very very tired and yet restless. It happens to toddlers, it happens to older people, it happens to people with all sorts of medical conditions. Trying to keep going until exhaustion outweighs all those other issues is really hard on the body and mind. Waking up with tingling extremities, stressed muscles and joints, or even permanent nerve damage because you slept in a bad position isn't so great either.
Maybe tiredness, relaxation, and ability to sleep are all in sync for you. Good for you. I remember when I could have said the same, but I never made the mistake of assuming that my experience was everyone else's.
Maybe tiredness, relaxation, and ability to sleep are all in sync for you. Good for you. I remember when I could have said the same, but I never made the mistake of assuming that my experience was everyone else's.
> Me, and the animal I live inside.
This dualism is unhelpful. You are the animal. You aren't a thing inside of yourself. Yes, sometimes your mind can be sharp and your body tired, but at the end of the day, you are the unity created by the synthesis, not some disembodied force.
The worst thing about dualism is that people who think of themselves as not religious do it unreflectively, whereas when religious people do it, at least it's on the table as something up for debate.
This dualism is unhelpful. You are the animal. You aren't a thing inside of yourself. Yes, sometimes your mind can be sharp and your body tired, but at the end of the day, you are the unity created by the synthesis, not some disembodied force.
The worst thing about dualism is that people who think of themselves as not religious do it unreflectively, whereas when religious people do it, at least it's on the table as something up for debate.
I take it you haven't read her fictional work. Exploring this dualism is one of the main plot and emotional devices for several trilogies.
I laugh when I see people running for 6 miles are doing marathons or Iron Man’s. How can anyone think that is healthy and good for the long term functioning of the body? Study after study has shown that we are meant to be “lazy”. But no one wants to hear that.
So listen to this guy, relax!
So listen to this guy, relax!
The actual studies show there is a J-shaped curve relationship between endurance sports training and long term health. Most people in affluent societies are way over on the left side of the curve and could improve long term functioning through more exercise. The risks for chronic problems like heart scarring, arterial calcification, and musculoskeletal injuries only start to increase once you get over about 20 hours per week.
Elderly people frequently die because they get weak, then they fall and end up bedridden. At that point they don't last very long.
Elderly people frequently die because they get weak, then they fall and end up bedridden. At that point they don't last very long.
Why don't they last long after becoming bedridden?
Your body really isn't meant to stay horizontal 23+ hours/day, and that's what many elderly people are reduced to after a bad fall.
Bed sores develop very quickly, and an elderly immune system often simply isn't equipped to fight them. Gangrene and amputations are extremely common in end-of-life care.
Bed sores develop very quickly, and an elderly immune system often simply isn't equipped to fight them. Gangrene and amputations are extremely common in end-of-life care.
For clarity, this sets in as the old body may still be slowly or practically unable to recover from the first event, the fall (e.g. a broken bone).
Your circulatory system is actively pumped by the heart, but also passively pumped by everyday muscle movements. Lack of movement decreases oxygenation and clearance of metabolic byproducts.
6 miles isn’t that long lol. Exercise is good. Otherwise you get weak and shrivel up.
There’s a weird thing in the Midwest where I grew up where people talk about exercise as if it’s unhealthy (and basically nobody exercises).
Then you come to the Bay Area and see just how much people can really exercise. Older people exercising here seem way healthier than where I grew up.
Still when I go home if I say I run 3mi a day people say things like, “that’s bad for your knees” etc. or look at you like you’re crazy. In the Bay Area it’s like I don’t work out at all by comparison.
Then you come to the Bay Area and see just how much people can really exercise. Older people exercising here seem way healthier than where I grew up.
Still when I go home if I say I run 3mi a day people say things like, “that’s bad for your knees” etc. or look at you like you’re crazy. In the Bay Area it’s like I don’t work out at all by comparison.
That was my experience, too. I ran one leg of the Big Sur marathon relay. My local friends were like “next year you’ll do a half!” My childhood friends were like “so you never, ever have to do that again, right?”
My grandfather lived in 98 never exercised in his life. I know it’s an anecdote, but it’s still data.
My grandfather lived into his 90s and as far as I know never "exercised". But during a lot of his life he split firewood and worked 8-hour shifts at a factory (before walking home for an hour or so) and did a lot of other things that would be much more vigorous than regular exercise. A different anecdote.
> I know it’s an anecdote, but it’s still data
That's useful if it's about a subject where there's no studies.
But this is whether exercise improves quality of life. There's no shortage of studies about it. Implying that a single anecdote is still data is the bad kind of technically true.
I would link to one of those studies, but there's too many of them and I admit I don't know what to choose.
https://scholar.google.com.sg/scholar?q=physical+activity+qu...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01674...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00917...
That's useful if it's about a subject where there's no studies.
But this is whether exercise improves quality of life. There's no shortage of studies about it. Implying that a single anecdote is still data is the bad kind of technically true.
I would link to one of those studies, but there's too many of them and I admit I don't know what to choose.
https://scholar.google.com.sg/scholar?q=physical+activity+qu...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01674...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00917...
I’ll find you a couple tens of millions of people who didnt exercise who died well before 98
It's quality of life too. For pretty much every human, finding a way to get outside and breath hard is going to feel good. You're gonna sleep better etc.
Yeah we all know people who drink 3 cokes a day and aren't fat etc... but I know if I drink a lot of beers or cokes or whatever I feel terrible. When I go for hill sprints I feel amazing after.
It's clearly a good habit in a healthy life.
Yeah we all know people who drink 3 cokes a day and aren't fat etc... but I know if I drink a lot of beers or cokes or whatever I feel terrible. When I go for hill sprints I feel amazing after.
It's clearly a good habit in a healthy life.
I never exercised for 20 years. My back did hurt so much that I had to roll out of bed every morning. I started exercising two years ago and now this is no longer an issue.
He must have had some kind of exercise, even if it was labeled as "chores" or "job".
He must have had some kind of exercise, even if it was labeled as "chores" or "job".
I'm not aware of any such studies, can you recommend one to start with?
Be wary of being desperate to justify your lifestyle. For example, let’s see some of these studies that celebrate the sedentary lifestyle impact on health.
I didn’t say I advocated for A sedimentary lifestyle. There’s a big difference between being active and intense exercise.
And it’s not just quantity of life, but quality of life. I know a bunch of long distance runners and I can’t tell you how many of them had knee surgery and/or, back problems.
And it’s not just quantity of life, but quality of life. I know a bunch of long distance runners and I can’t tell you how many of them had knee surgery and/or, back problems.
Numerous studies show that exercise provides U-shaped benefits to health [1], [2].
Specific to cardiovascular disease, repeat marathon runners [3] have higher calcium buildup than those who do not run in marathons, which as Robin might say, is one of those cases where the animal is driven too hard.
While you have a point for extreme exertion, I'm not sure what you mean by "lazy". Current general recommendations are 150 minutes a week, or <30 minutes a day [4], which definitely falls underneath moderate exercise. I don't think "no one" is ignoring these recommendations (or, at least, they agree with them-- few people follow them :^)).
As for your grandpa's longevity-- your genetics is just a risk modifier, not a nullifier. Wearing a seatbelt doesn't prevent your death, it just reduces your odds of it during a car crash. So, at least, I hope you still wear your seatbelt, because the time cost of this activity is so miniscule compared to the time reward.
As I like to say, "Run for your life! At a comfortable pace, and not too far" [5]
EDIT: I should add-- I ran competitively a few years ago. My "animal" is no longer as fierce, and thus am a bit more moderate these days. But there is a large emotional aspect and validation to pushing yourself that goes beyond physical health. As with any sport-- running, swimming, football, basketball-- the physical toll is worth it. This, though, is what I would classify under Robin's description of a "tired animal" and is likely what Bolt, MJ, etc. feels. When she says she "wishes she treated her animal better", I don't think she means this, at least when it comes to exercise.
[1] https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Abstract/9000/Endurance_a...
[2] https://themedicalroundtable.com/article/role-physical-fitne...
[3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21200345/
[4] https://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity/basics/adults/index.htm
[5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6U728AZnV0
Specific to cardiovascular disease, repeat marathon runners [3] have higher calcium buildup than those who do not run in marathons, which as Robin might say, is one of those cases where the animal is driven too hard.
While you have a point for extreme exertion, I'm not sure what you mean by "lazy". Current general recommendations are 150 minutes a week, or <30 minutes a day [4], which definitely falls underneath moderate exercise. I don't think "no one" is ignoring these recommendations (or, at least, they agree with them-- few people follow them :^)).
As for your grandpa's longevity-- your genetics is just a risk modifier, not a nullifier. Wearing a seatbelt doesn't prevent your death, it just reduces your odds of it during a car crash. So, at least, I hope you still wear your seatbelt, because the time cost of this activity is so miniscule compared to the time reward.
As I like to say, "Run for your life! At a comfortable pace, and not too far" [5]
EDIT: I should add-- I ran competitively a few years ago. My "animal" is no longer as fierce, and thus am a bit more moderate these days. But there is a large emotional aspect and validation to pushing yourself that goes beyond physical health. As with any sport-- running, swimming, football, basketball-- the physical toll is worth it. This, though, is what I would classify under Robin's description of a "tired animal" and is likely what Bolt, MJ, etc. feels. When she says she "wishes she treated her animal better", I don't think she means this, at least when it comes to exercise.
[1] https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Abstract/9000/Endurance_a...
[2] https://themedicalroundtable.com/article/role-physical-fitne...
[3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21200345/
[4] https://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity/basics/adults/index.htm
[5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6U728AZnV0
> Specific to cardiovascular disease, repeat marathon runners [3] have higher calcium buildup than those who do not run in marathons
The linked study did not say anything about runners versus non-runners, so I would be careful in making such statement.
From the study: "We studied 100 male presumably healthy runners, aged 50-75 yr, who completed at least five marathons during the preceding 3 yr."
The study involved older marathon runners and found artery calcium plaque in some of them. It however did not include a comparable group of non-runners. It is entirely likely that the calcium plaque buildup happens in higher age regardless of lifestyle.
Or perhaps frequent marathon runners have less of it than non-runners. Or more of it. The point is that this study does not say what you claim it says.
The linked study did not say anything about runners versus non-runners, so I would be careful in making such statement.
From the study: "We studied 100 male presumably healthy runners, aged 50-75 yr, who completed at least five marathons during the preceding 3 yr."
The study involved older marathon runners and found artery calcium plaque in some of them. It however did not include a comparable group of non-runners. It is entirely likely that the calcium plaque buildup happens in higher age regardless of lifestyle.
Or perhaps frequent marathon runners have less of it than non-runners. Or more of it. The point is that this study does not say what you claim it says.
thanks for the tedx talk, good one
She published the first trilogy, which begins with Assassin's Apprentice, starting in 1995. I saw the books when they first came out and I assumed from the title and the cover that it would be a cheesy fantasy by the numbers, so I never bought it. But I kept hearing about these books from other people who liked SFF, so I finally picked up the first trilogy.
I was completely wrong. It's not at all by the numbers. While it's not trope-free (nothing is), there are all sorts of interesting ideas, from the political to ecological. As you read the later series, the world opens up quite a bit, and it gets even more interesting. The final trilogy brings so many elements together, and the ending is shatteringly powerful.
While this is epic fantasy, it's _not_ at all grimdark. Bad things definitely happen, but it's more hopeful and humane than something like Malazan or Song of Ice and Fire.
I can't recommend these books highly enough. Even if her writing is slowing down, I hope that she's satisfied with what she's done. This series alone is an enormous accomplishment. To build a world across so many books, across so many years, and have it come together so well in the end is massively impressive.