Singapore population sees biggest percentage drop since 1950(reuters.com)
reuters.com
Singapore population sees biggest percentage drop since 1950
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/singapore-population-sees-biggest-percentage-drop-since-1950-2021-09-28/
186 comments
> Singapore is one of the most expensive places in the world to live in.
According to their cost of living plus rent index, Singapore is 32nd most expensive city
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings.jsp
Top 3 are Hamilton, San Francisco, and Zurich.
According to their cost of living plus rent index, Singapore is 32nd most expensive city
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings.jsp
Top 3 are Hamilton, San Francisco, and Zurich.
How on earth Seoul is at no. 70 and Zurich at no. 3? Anecdotally, according to someone who's familiar to both places living in Seoul now is more expensive compared to Switzerland's cities (Top 6 from top 10 cities).
As someone that currently lives in Zurich but has no experience with Seoul, I find a lot of these metrics prioritize certain things which skew their results for many people with other lifestyles.
For instance, I was paying 2-3 times as much in living expenses in SF compared to here in Zurich, almost entirely because of rental costs. Apartments here are relatively cheap, and one can survive somewhat frugally by avoiding service-based spending such as dining in restaurants, taxis, etc.
For instance, I was paying 2-3 times as much in living expenses in SF compared to here in Zurich, almost entirely because of rental costs. Apartments here are relatively cheap, and one can survive somewhat frugally by avoiding service-based spending such as dining in restaurants, taxis, etc.
There are 563 entries (cities) in numbeo so 32nd place still keeps Singapore in top 5% most expensive cities to live (probably even higher since numbeo doesn't list many cities)
Might want to normalise for income here. Having a high cost of living but high median income would be a bit of a misrepresentation.
The cost of living in Singapore isn’t high. Especially compared to Australia. But to have a family in Singapore? One of the reasons I just left…
Health insurance is given to all employees if a company has > 50 employees. (Otherwise it’s up to the company if they want to give health insurance)
Health insurance is given to all employees if a company has > 50 employees. (Otherwise it’s up to the company if they want to give health insurance)
I have some friends who pay 3000 Singapore dollars for a rather small one bedroom apartment, I would definitely consider that a high cost of living.
I rented a 1350sqf apartment with 4 bedrooms for $2500, 28th floor, next to a mall with 24/hr super market, and 2m walk to the MRT station.
Singapore is cheap to live in. It can be expensive if you choose to live a high roller life style. All studies for the cost of living in singapore include things for expats that you don’t need, like owning a car.
Singapore is cheap to live in. It can be expensive if you choose to live a high roller life style. All studies for the cost of living in singapore include things for expats that you don’t need, like owning a car.
I'm guessing you were pretty far out from the center. That price doesn't align with the experiences of people I'm close to who live there, and who I have visited. But they do live in a more central area.
Also, the HDB-style housing is often less expensive, as some are pretty run down and not likely popular with expats, but they are cheaper.
Also, the HDB-style housing is often less expensive, as some are pretty run down and not likely popular with expats, but they are cheaper.
I lived in Singapore for 10 years in both HDB and condo. Close to the cbd and far.
HDB can be run down yes, but most are not. They simply do not have things like gym and pool.
Majority of the expats will get a condo first and then realise they don’t use any of this stuff and later change to HDB.
Condos are often poorly constructed. I lived in a condo that had just been finished about 6 months earlier. In Jurong east called j gateway. It’s one of the worst buildings I’ve ever been in. They put tiles on the floor that are meant for walls, and the floor to the shower is flat so the water pools and don’t run out causing water splotches.
Anyway my point is: Singapore is cheap to live in. If you want to live near the cbd (unsure why cos most expats prefer to socialise around Holland village) then you have to pay for it. If you don’t want to eat locally and instead order grab food or eat at restaurants then yeah it’s expensive. But that doesn’t make Singapore expensive to live in, your chosen life style is expensive.
HDB can be run down yes, but most are not. They simply do not have things like gym and pool.
Majority of the expats will get a condo first and then realise they don’t use any of this stuff and later change to HDB.
Condos are often poorly constructed. I lived in a condo that had just been finished about 6 months earlier. In Jurong east called j gateway. It’s one of the worst buildings I’ve ever been in. They put tiles on the floor that are meant for walls, and the floor to the shower is flat so the water pools and don’t run out causing water splotches.
Anyway my point is: Singapore is cheap to live in. If you want to live near the cbd (unsure why cos most expats prefer to socialise around Holland village) then you have to pay for it. If you don’t want to eat locally and instead order grab food or eat at restaurants then yeah it’s expensive. But that doesn’t make Singapore expensive to live in, your chosen life style is expensive.
Singapore is a highly socialized nation. You don’t need a car, at all. You won’t pay for medicine. Hawker meals are $2.
You most certainly pay for medicine. Even for the subsidised polyclinics, where wait times average at 2h, you'll still have to pay the subsidised rate. They're not prohibitive, but to a certain extent, you pay with time rather than money, unless you pick a private clinic.
Similarly, that $2 hawker meal is rather outdated now.
Similarly, that $2 hawker meal is rather outdated now.
2h wait times? No way in 10 years I never once waited more than 15m!
I'll say that I've never waited less than an hour. Usually more than that.
Still cheaper than SF.
So having kids is grossly expensive if you're a non-citizen? I mean, that kind of makes at least one remedy for a low birthrate obvious, right? Is there a reason they're reluctant to treat permanent residents the same as citizens for kid stuff?
Birthrates for non-PR/citizens shouldn't affect the long term outlook nearly as heavily as expats are not expected to stay.
> Is there a reason they're reluctant to treat permanent residents the same as citizens for kid stuff?
My naive guess is, yes there is. PR is a merit based system to gain access to the "full thing" you need to be willing to put in the work.
At the core they need to solve the local population's birth rate problem.
> Is there a reason they're reluctant to treat permanent residents the same as citizens for kid stuff?
My naive guess is, yes there is. PR is a merit based system to gain access to the "full thing" you need to be willing to put in the work.
At the core they need to solve the local population's birth rate problem.
How can you claim that getting PR is merit based when the criteria is opaque?
While the system is opaque, there's enough data points of people who have gone through it to create a set.
Origin of country matters, so does race. The uniqueness of your job matters as well especially if it "can benefit Singapore society", <S$150k pay not so much. If you integrate yourself into society, have locals who can vouch (this one is not opaque, they ask for character references).
"Benefiting Singapore society" is this catch all term and very opaque/hard to pin down. But I've seen middle managers at colleges not get PR while classroom teachers do. But not all things were equal so it's very hard to tell, but there is/are discussions around it.
Over the years it has gotten increasing harder to obtain PR and thusly citizenship.
Origin of country matters, so does race. The uniqueness of your job matters as well especially if it "can benefit Singapore society", <S$150k pay not so much. If you integrate yourself into society, have locals who can vouch (this one is not opaque, they ask for character references).
"Benefiting Singapore society" is this catch all term and very opaque/hard to pin down. But I've seen middle managers at colleges not get PR while classroom teachers do. But not all things were equal so it's very hard to tell, but there is/are discussions around it.
Over the years it has gotten increasing harder to obtain PR and thusly citizenship.
Pretty much all of that sounds awful.
If I may stretch the truth a little to rant, at this point the only systems that have any hope of being merit-based are opaque.
Singapore has mandatory national service for citizens and 2nd gen PRs. So many PRs I know or their kids immigrated once the kids were at that age. Not just because they don’t want to serve, but serving in another countries military might get messy.
Not sure they have an incentive to make it easier for PRs.
Not sure they have an incentive to make it easier for PRs.
It may also be illegal to serve national service (NS) in another country. I.e. I believe Turkish nationals are not allowed to serve, so as a PR this can indeed get very messy/illegal, or you may end up doing two different nationa services.
They used to till maybe 5-6 years age. As many people were getting PR using all the perks then leaving Singapore back for their home country like subsidized housing and cheap schooling etc.
I'm trying to understand your fundamental point. "That Singapore is losing foreigners because it is so expensive to live?"
If that's the argument, then I agree. But you've got a lot of other stuff doesn't speak towards that end because it's talking about how cheap it is for citizens.
If you're a citizen, it's quite affordable to live in SG vs many other first world countries, all inclusive. US seems cheap at first, but factor in any amount of healthcare and you've got a real problem on your hands. HK far out weighs housing costs.
Still trying to understand the core thought.
If that's the argument, then I agree. But you've got a lot of other stuff doesn't speak towards that end because it's talking about how cheap it is for citizens.
If you're a citizen, it's quite affordable to live in SG vs many other first world countries, all inclusive. US seems cheap at first, but factor in any amount of healthcare and you've got a real problem on your hands. HK far out weighs housing costs.
Still trying to understand the core thought.
Every castle is built over a dungeon
This hit me hard when in Singapore. In particular because of the size: in such a small place, you can’t avoid seeing the migrant workers/maids etc whereas it’s hidden in say, Paris. The contrast is so vivid.
This hit me hard when in Singapore. In particular because of the size: in such a small place, you can’t avoid seeing the migrant workers/maids etc whereas it’s hidden in say, Paris. The contrast is so vivid.
In Paris you just have to visit the suburbs. Tourists don’t go out there because none of the attractions are out there, and if I didn’t get lost rollerblading I would have never have noticed.
You can go to Saint-Denis visit the royal basilica. You'll see who live there.
In Paris you just have to take the metro or the train (they'd be most visible in train stations)
I remember some sketchier areas on the RER between CDG and the city center.
In Helsinki turn up at Mass at the Catholic cathedral. You see workers from the Philippines and West Africa.
Much better article with a breakdown.
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/singapore-populati...
Most interesting is not the foreign workers, which you would expect, but the loss of Permanent Residents (6.2%) and Citizens (0.7%).
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/singapore-populati...
Most interesting is not the foreign workers, which you would expect, but the loss of Permanent Residents (6.2%) and Citizens (0.7%).
Aren't permanent residents foreign workers as well? Permanent resident =/= citizen?
Singapore has a strict caste hierarchy, which looks like this:
* Citizen.
* Permanent resident (PR). Previously given out in boxes of cereal, particularly if of Chinese descent, now very difficult to attain. Military service required for male children.
* Employment pass. Professional expats with high qualifying salaries (depends on age, educational qualifications etc, but generally $5000/mo minimum). Pass tied to job, 30 days to get out of the country/find new sponsor if job ends. No subsidies for education, health etc, but can bring in families, marry locals, eventually apply for PR.
* S-pass. Semi-professional roles (eg. construction foreman), strict limits on how many can be employed.
* Work pass. Disposable laborers in construction, factories, landscaping, etc. No path to become residents, cannot marry Singaporeans (edit: without explicit government approval), generally brutally exploited and for the past two years 100% confined to their dormitories and worksites.
* Foreign domestic workers aka maids/helpers. Disposable laborers living and working in Singaporean households. Not covered by employment legislation, so can be legally forced to work 365/24/7 with no holidays whatsoever. Not uncommonly physically confined (locked in) to the employer's apartment, denied means of communicating with the outside world, and have both their passports and salaries confiscated for "safekeeping".
* Citizen.
* Permanent resident (PR). Previously given out in boxes of cereal, particularly if of Chinese descent, now very difficult to attain. Military service required for male children.
* Employment pass. Professional expats with high qualifying salaries (depends on age, educational qualifications etc, but generally $5000/mo minimum). Pass tied to job, 30 days to get out of the country/find new sponsor if job ends. No subsidies for education, health etc, but can bring in families, marry locals, eventually apply for PR.
* S-pass. Semi-professional roles (eg. construction foreman), strict limits on how many can be employed.
* Work pass. Disposable laborers in construction, factories, landscaping, etc. No path to become residents, cannot marry Singaporeans (edit: without explicit government approval), generally brutally exploited and for the past two years 100% confined to their dormitories and worksites.
* Foreign domestic workers aka maids/helpers. Disposable laborers living and working in Singaporean households. Not covered by employment legislation, so can be legally forced to work 365/24/7 with no holidays whatsoever. Not uncommonly physically confined (locked in) to the employer's apartment, denied means of communicating with the outside world, and have both their passports and salaries confiscated for "safekeeping".
Your description of "maids" does not seem to match what is on the official Singapore government site: (https://www.mom.gov.sg/employment-practices/employment-act/w...).
I don't think Singapore is exploitative as you describe it. Maybe you are thinking of Dubai.
I don't think Singapore is exploitative as you describe it. Maybe you are thinking of Dubai.
Singapore is the same as Dubai, just Singapore is better at PR
I believe “maids” are “domestic workers” and don’t fall under the Employment Act but are governed by a separate set of regulations (best I could find): https://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and-permits/work-permit-for-fo...
Anyway most of what he says about “maids” is wrong - weekly rest day, must be paid monthly (no keeping of salary), … etc. as stated in the aforementioned link.
Anyway most of what he says about “maids” is wrong - weekly rest day, must be paid monthly (no keeping of salary), … etc. as stated in the aforementioned link.
Currently, there is no legal mandate for a rest day, since the maid can oh-so-voluntarily "choose" to give up their rest days for an extra day of salary (~$20). Effective end-2022, they will finally get at least one day per month of mandatory rest: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/maids-mandatory-re...
You're correct in that employers are not supposed to confiscate salaries or passports, but rest assured, both are very common practices, as are things like working in multiple households, having to work outside the home, etc.
More reading: https://www.home.org.sg/
You're correct in that employers are not supposed to confiscate salaries or passports, but rest assured, both are very common practices, as are things like working in multiple households, having to work outside the home, etc.
More reading: https://www.home.org.sg/
“From 1 January 2019, as an FDW employer, you must not keep your FDW’s salary or any other money belonging to her, even if she requests for it.
You must not keep her bank book or bank card.”
https://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and-permits/work-permit-for-fo...
You must not keep her bank book or bank card.”
https://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and-permits/work-permit-for-fo...
My next door neighbor illegally withheld their maid's passport and did not pay them for a half a year. When the poor woman finally convinced her employer that her young children back in Indonesia need to eat, she was frogmarched to a Western Union outlet and given some cash to remit, while being closely observed to make sure she did not keep any of it. When they decided to get rid of her, she was given one hour's notice to pack, driven to the airport, and had the cost of her flight ticket illegally deducted from her salary.
All this happened in 2020.
All this happened in 2020.
Did you file a complaint? Being of European descent and seeing these helpers/maids stories on the news on a monthly basis, this reminds me heavily of our colonial time.
I have a neighbor who's now been through 7 or 8 helpers in a span of 4 or 5 years. Allegedly there's a limit on how many you can go through but somehow it's swept under the rug. It's in the maid agency's best interest to not report their clients...
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What, you're saying the official Singapore government site doesn't say maids are brutally exploited? Say it ain't so! It does, however, say that "you are not covered [by the Employment Act] if you are employed as a: Domestic worker".
Have a read through some of the stories here: https://www.home.org.sg/our-updates
This case got a lot of press lately, but while the employer was obviously a monster, also consider how it was possible that the victim had no avenue to escape or complain during the 14 month period of abuse: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/gaiyathiri-murugay...
Have a read through some of the stories here: https://www.home.org.sg/our-updates
This case got a lot of press lately, but while the employer was obviously a monster, also consider how it was possible that the victim had no avenue to escape or complain during the 14 month period of abuse: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/gaiyathiri-murugay...
Can you describe the type of employer that does this? Is it a cultural thing like it is in Dubai? Very curious that this seems to happen in Singapore regularly. I have a very high opinion of Singapore, although I have only been there in transit to some some other place. I especially have a high opinion of Lee kuan yew
I will take a stab at it. When we left, we tried our best to find a good employer to take over our helper's contract. She had a family dependent on her, and the COVID measures implemented by the Ministry of Manpower were making it deliberately difficult for non-citizens to return to SG. In addition, during that time, only citizens with children & senior parents could get helper's contracts transferred to them, as they were deemed to be more in need of helper services.
In short, as another person alluded to with the "reverse caste" comment, here's the rough pecking order as perceived by domestic helpers.
#1 - European or American or Australian employer, living in a condominium in the expat part of town
#2 - Other nationality employer, living in a condominium (expat part preferred)
#3 - Other nationality, living in an HDB
#4 - Singaporean-Chinese employer, living anywhere, but HDBs are bottom preference compared to condos, and "landed-houses" have their own nuances (multiple maids, pecking orders therein etc.)
In our experience, with #4 the helpers are justly concerned about being over worked, under fed and denied sleep. We had an interview where the helper and we were shocked that the work hours expected were 5am to 12pm, with a single ill-willed break for lunch, and the prospective employer had just had a kid that the helper was to look after all day. The explicit interview comment was "when I return from work, you will give us dinner, then I need to work, so you must look after the child until she sleeps". My wife and I just stared gob-smacked at each other after that call, as this was contrary to all the rules we learnt in the training we were given by MoM for employing domestic helpers (the applicant has to pass an online test and undergo training) but apparently common among that cohort.
For those who do not know SG:
#1 Explicitly pointing out nationalities & race is not only accepted, it is Govt policy. They still follow the "one drop of blood" rule from the Secessionist South and this race classification is printed on the NRIC ID card. A single non-Chinese ancestor apparently puts you out of the Chinese category. Source: an uber-driver kid I spoke to who had a Chinese mother & Indian father. Officially, the 'races' are Chinese, Malay & Indian.
#2 I don't like using a sock-puppet, but do not wish to invite trouble for my circa-2007 account. I will answer questions for a day, but will delete the account after or forget the random password.
#3 I am (was?) a big fan of LKY and loved reading both his books. I am cognizant of many of the different internal pressures and divisions within the country and am not being judgmental, this is simply the way it is, and it is a LOT better than the neighbouring countries with their xenophobic and genocidal histories. COVID has hit the country hard, there is a resurgent nationalism and xenophobia within Singapore, and LKY's legacy is a ship steering through treacherous straits, with a mutiny on board, and several prospective captains fighting for the helm.
In short, as another person alluded to with the "reverse caste" comment, here's the rough pecking order as perceived by domestic helpers.
#1 - European or American or Australian employer, living in a condominium in the expat part of town
#2 - Other nationality employer, living in a condominium (expat part preferred)
#3 - Other nationality, living in an HDB
#4 - Singaporean-Chinese employer, living anywhere, but HDBs are bottom preference compared to condos, and "landed-houses" have their own nuances (multiple maids, pecking orders therein etc.)
In our experience, with #4 the helpers are justly concerned about being over worked, under fed and denied sleep. We had an interview where the helper and we were shocked that the work hours expected were 5am to 12pm, with a single ill-willed break for lunch, and the prospective employer had just had a kid that the helper was to look after all day. The explicit interview comment was "when I return from work, you will give us dinner, then I need to work, so you must look after the child until she sleeps". My wife and I just stared gob-smacked at each other after that call, as this was contrary to all the rules we learnt in the training we were given by MoM for employing domestic helpers (the applicant has to pass an online test and undergo training) but apparently common among that cohort.
For those who do not know SG:
#1 Explicitly pointing out nationalities & race is not only accepted, it is Govt policy. They still follow the "one drop of blood" rule from the Secessionist South and this race classification is printed on the NRIC ID card. A single non-Chinese ancestor apparently puts you out of the Chinese category. Source: an uber-driver kid I spoke to who had a Chinese mother & Indian father. Officially, the 'races' are Chinese, Malay & Indian.
#2 I don't like using a sock-puppet, but do not wish to invite trouble for my circa-2007 account. I will answer questions for a day, but will delete the account after or forget the random password.
#3 I am (was?) a big fan of LKY and loved reading both his books. I am cognizant of many of the different internal pressures and divisions within the country and am not being judgmental, this is simply the way it is, and it is a LOT better than the neighbouring countries with their xenophobic and genocidal histories. COVID has hit the country hard, there is a resurgent nationalism and xenophobia within Singapore, and LKY's legacy is a ship steering through treacherous straits, with a mutiny on board, and several prospective captains fighting for the helm.
It's complicated and I hesitate to generalize, but I'd draw two themes:
* Economic: Singapore is an expensive place to live and both parents typically need to work to make ends meet. A foreign domestic worker is the cheapest way to get child or elder care, but it's still a significant expense, so there's a natural incentive to cut costs by providing only the absolute minimum (feed them ramen, make them sleep on the kitchen floor, etc).
* Power dynamics: The stereotypical domestic worker is young woman from a deeply poor rural background, sometimes underage with fake ID (illegal but particularly common with Burmese), who speaks little to no English, is unfamiliar with city living, and knows nobody in Singapore. They are often deeply in debt to the broker who found the job, supporting family back home who will literally starve if she can't provide, unaware of the little rights they do have, and thus very strongly incentivized to tolerate whatever is thrown their way. The employer thus finds themselves in a position of near-absolute power over them, and as the old saw says, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. In the case above, where the maid was essentially tortured to death over a year, there was an entire household watching and the deviance was normalized quickly because there was nothing she could do to fight back.
* Economic: Singapore is an expensive place to live and both parents typically need to work to make ends meet. A foreign domestic worker is the cheapest way to get child or elder care, but it's still a significant expense, so there's a natural incentive to cut costs by providing only the absolute minimum (feed them ramen, make them sleep on the kitchen floor, etc).
* Power dynamics: The stereotypical domestic worker is young woman from a deeply poor rural background, sometimes underage with fake ID (illegal but particularly common with Burmese), who speaks little to no English, is unfamiliar with city living, and knows nobody in Singapore. They are often deeply in debt to the broker who found the job, supporting family back home who will literally starve if she can't provide, unaware of the little rights they do have, and thus very strongly incentivized to tolerate whatever is thrown their way. The employer thus finds themselves in a position of near-absolute power over them, and as the old saw says, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. In the case above, where the maid was essentially tortured to death over a year, there was an entire household watching and the deviance was normalized quickly because there was nothing she could do to fight back.
> Power dynamics: The stereotypical domestic worker is young woman from a deeply poor rural background
Sadly, it's not just Singapore. This also happens in other places in Asia, especially in the domestic workers' respective home countries. I feel that the abuse is even worse in places where there's more available physical space. Why? Because more physical space allows for more privacy and secrecy. Rape is very common in these places yet it wasn't commonly reported until about 10 years ago. Before, society would just treat this as infidelity. It's a grim subject, but at least things are slightly improving, though still not fast enough.
Sadly, it's not just Singapore. This also happens in other places in Asia, especially in the domestic workers' respective home countries. I feel that the abuse is even worse in places where there's more available physical space. Why? Because more physical space allows for more privacy and secrecy. Rape is very common in these places yet it wasn't commonly reported until about 10 years ago. Before, society would just treat this as infidelity. It's a grim subject, but at least things are slightly improving, though still not fast enough.
This is a very extreme dramatisation. Singapore investigates and prosecutes the abuse of domestic workers very judiciously. The only reason it seems novel is because domestic workers are not particularly common in the west. Here you just get the normalized deviance of traditional family violence.
There are places where domestic workers don’t have the protection of the law. Like the UAE for instance, where somebody reporting their abuse can lead to them being charged with adultery.
There are places where domestic workers don’t have the protection of the law. Like the UAE for instance, where somebody reporting their abuse can lead to them being charged with adultery.
No its not, have quite a few colleagues in SGP and the caste system which everybody knows of and often enjoys tremendously is quite something. As as european you have to have stomach for this kind of society to live and raise kids in for example. Everybody has their maid(s) which are paid nothing and often abused in one way or another and tossed away in case of issues.
Yes we can go the usual avenue of whataboutism and name places which are much worse than SGP, but the truth is, SGP is not a democracy and at its core doesn't share the western values of equality and human rights.
But as long as partying and cheap flights to Bali is all you ever wanted from life and don't care about rampart social issues everywhere around you, life can be great there. If you like hard long working hours and have something to offer on job market that is.
Yes we can go the usual avenue of whataboutism and name places which are much worse than SGP, but the truth is, SGP is not a democracy and at its core doesn't share the western values of equality and human rights.
But as long as partying and cheap flights to Bali is all you ever wanted from life and don't care about rampart social issues everywhere around you, life can be great there. If you like hard long working hours and have something to offer on job market that is.
Just as all Americans are deeply racist and seek the downfall of non-white races, am I right?
Yes, there are abuse cases, some which are particularly bad. No, this is not the norm, at least as far as my social circle's expectations are, and at least one or two hops out.
Singapore has a pile of issues, and I'd include "not a true democracy" in that, but normalized abuse of maids is not one of them. It makes the news for a reason.
Yes, there are abuse cases, some which are particularly bad. No, this is not the norm, at least as far as my social circle's expectations are, and at least one or two hops out.
Singapore has a pile of issues, and I'd include "not a true democracy" in that, but normalized abuse of maids is not one of them. It makes the news for a reason.
> But as long as partying
Partying in Singapore? You sure? They are snoozefests.
You get some really awful factors working against you for parties:
1) Some 16% of population doesn't drink
2) No drugs allowed
3) People are exhausted from working
4) Can't fool nature: The best parties are in places which are considered dangerous such as Brazil, Colombia, Peru, Cuba, Panama...That's because the strong emotions and impulsivity which makes a good party are the same that can cause stuff to go south immediately as soon as sombody interacts with a girl in a wrong way or disrespects somebody. People are very dull and emotionless in Singapore.
Partying in Singapore? You sure? They are snoozefests.
You get some really awful factors working against you for parties:
1) Some 16% of population doesn't drink
2) No drugs allowed
3) People are exhausted from working
4) Can't fool nature: The best parties are in places which are considered dangerous such as Brazil, Colombia, Peru, Cuba, Panama...That's because the strong emotions and impulsivity which makes a good party are the same that can cause stuff to go south immediately as soon as sombody interacts with a girl in a wrong way or disrespects somebody. People are very dull and emotionless in Singapore.
Slavery is widespread on this planet. Nobody will advocate for it or display its legal status on a government website. What you might find, is a gaping hole in the law..
And yet, the only people called out for it are the one group that actually ended it long ago...
> cannot marry Singaporeans
I thought we had left this back in the Middle Ages. It always surprises me how come some journalists still praise Singapore.
I thought we had left this back in the Middle Ages. It always surprises me how come some journalists still praise Singapore.
VS where? I'll praise Singapore. It's clean, safe, has great food, fun clubs, cheap and plentiful taxis, wonderful public transportation, late night food options.
Compare to SF. SF I think there are 5 restaurants in the entire city open past 2am (5 might be wrong but the number is small. SF clubs have a curfew. SF has homeless everywhere. Just got the pleasure of having one squat and defecate in front of me in front of the local market. SF has car breakins and garage breakins all over.
I'm not saying Singapore doesn't have problems but if any other city is worthy of praise so is Singapore. All cities have problems, they're just different problems.
Compare to SF. SF I think there are 5 restaurants in the entire city open past 2am (5 might be wrong but the number is small. SF clubs have a curfew. SF has homeless everywhere. Just got the pleasure of having one squat and defecate in front of me in front of the local market. SF has car breakins and garage breakins all over.
I'm not saying Singapore doesn't have problems but if any other city is worthy of praise so is Singapore. All cities have problems, they're just different problems.
For the last two years Singapore has had a hard closure of all eating establishments at 1030 - they will literally come and take your drink off of the table. For the last several months any and all background music has been banned in restaurants in case 'music causes people to speak more loudly and encourage the spread of covid "droplets"'.
What you said may have been true in the past, but it hasn't been true for a long time, and at this rate may never be true again.
What you said may have been true in the past, but it hasn't been true for a long time, and at this rate may never be true again.
[deleted]
You mean for whom.
Most places are great if you are wealthy, powerful or both.
"[Mars] must be a great place to live"
"Sure, if you're rich"
"Then I'm sure we will be quite happy."
Singapore clubs are boring
> has great food, fun clubs... late night food options
SG nightclubs have been closed since the beginning of covid (over 1.5 years now) so I'll be surprised if many are left when it finally reopens (a reopening which is nowhere in sight now in spite of Singapore having 85% vaccinated).
SG nightclubs have been closed since the beginning of covid (over 1.5 years now) so I'll be surprised if many are left when it finally reopens (a reopening which is nowhere in sight now in spite of Singapore having 85% vaccinated).
When they eased restrictions numbers of new cases climbed. They tightened restrictions again. 3480 new cases today.
We are not even 2 years into the pandemic. Not that many countries are sufficiently vaccinated. There are going to be lots of different strategies and there’s not much to do but wait and see what pans out.
We are not even 2 years into the pandemic. Not that many countries are sufficiently vaccinated. There are going to be lots of different strategies and there’s not much to do but wait and see what pans out.
None of that changes that being shut down for 2+ years has a high chance of killing most nightclub businesses.
So what you are saying is that Singapore is San Francisco but with the lower tier of society all locked-in in some kind of legal confinement.
Comparing to SF you have an island 20x30km which you cannot leave (or rather it’s quite difficult to return back) vs the enormous country with plenty of places to travel. Before the pandemics you could at least travel around Asia etc, now you just stuck there. In addition to that, Singapore has quite chaotic “covvid prevention” rules that make life even more depressing.
>Compare to SF. SF I think there are 5 restaurants in the entire city open past 2am (5 might be wrong but the number is small. SF clubs have a curfew. SF has homeless everywhere. Just got the pleasure of having one squat and defecate in front of me in front of the local market. SF has car breakins and garage breakins all over.
I can't vouch for the nightclubs and bars bit but there are plenty of cities like Detroit, Gary, Newark and Baltimore (the list goes on) that don't have nearly the frequency of petty property crime and poo in places other than the sewers. Don't get me wrong, these cities have their problems but the baseline level of petty lawlessness and flagrant anti-social behavior is far lower than it is in the west coast cities. You don't have to oppress the heck out of the poors Singapore style to prevent people from crapping on the sidewalks.
I can't vouch for the nightclubs and bars bit but there are plenty of cities like Detroit, Gary, Newark and Baltimore (the list goes on) that don't have nearly the frequency of petty property crime and poo in places other than the sewers. Don't get me wrong, these cities have their problems but the baseline level of petty lawlessness and flagrant anti-social behavior is far lower than it is in the west coast cities. You don't have to oppress the heck out of the poors Singapore style to prevent people from crapping on the sidewalks.
That'd basically what Stalin did in 1946, prohibiting Soviet citizens marrying foreigners.
Bow we can see this matrimonial novation alive and feeling well in Singapore. I wonder what happens if you go to Thailand and marry there.
I'm also not sure how it is going to work since citizen/PRs seem to be able to bring spouses in. Is it "unless they are already in Singapore and of low caste"?
Bow we can see this matrimonial novation alive and feeling well in Singapore. I wonder what happens if you go to Thailand and marry there.
I'm also not sure how it is going to work since citizen/PRs seem to be able to bring spouses in. Is it "unless they are already in Singapore and of low caste"?
Gosh that is bs. A friend of mine, a resident, married an ep holder 2 weeks ago. Singapore has not been very foreigner friendly lately, but this marriage thing is just not true.
There’s a big difference between EP and WP
Yes, as an EP holder I married a SC -- no problem. It's the Workpasses that are very restrictive.
You are maybe confused by the multiple different types (and subtypes) of work-visas in Singapore.
You are maybe confused by the multiple different types (and subtypes) of work-visas in Singapore.
I am aware. They were talking about work passes though. Work passes include work permit, ep, pep, etc: https://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and-permits
Don't worry, it's not actually true.
They do need permission.
"If you are a current or former Work Permit holder who wishes to marry a Singapore citizen or PR, you must apply for approval from MOM."
https://www.mom.gov.sg/faq/foreign-worker/as-a-work-permit-h...
"If you are a current or former Work Permit holder who wishes to marry a Singapore citizen or PR, you must apply for approval from MOM."
https://www.mom.gov.sg/faq/foreign-worker/as-a-work-permit-h...
Nearly every jurisdiction on earth has rules about who can marry whom. Especially when it comes to immigration. My best friend's fiance had to return to her home country from their shared second for 8 months while she applied for another visa to allow them to legally change her status when she married.
I feel like it's really strange that HN commenters hate on Singapore for having standards for immigrants. To the point of lying and saying that Work Permit holders aren't allowed to marry citizens in order to drum up outrage, and only backtracking when called out on it.
I feel like it's really strange that HN commenters hate on Singapore for having standards for immigrants. To the point of lying and saying that Work Permit holders aren't allowed to marry citizens in order to drum up outrage, and only backtracking when called out on it.
It's not a lie. They're not allowed, and it's not just about marriage. They're also prohibited from getting pregnant and are routinely tested.
https://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and-permits/work-permit-for-fo...
Work permit conditions:
>Not marry a Singapore citizen or permanent resident in or outside Singapore without MOM's approval. This applies even after their Work Permits have expired, been cancelled or revoked.
>Not get pregnant or deliver a child in Singapore during the validity of their Work Permit unless they are already married to a Singapore citizen or permanent resident with MOM's approval. This applies even after their Work Permits have expired, been cancelled or revoked.
https://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and-permits/work-permit-for-fo...
>As an employer, you must send your female Work Permit holders for medical screening every 6 months. This medical examination screens for pregnancy and infectious diseases such as syphilis, HIV and tuberculosis.
Note how they prohibit marriage outside Singapore even after the permit expires. It's clear what it means. If you've ever had a work permit, you're marked as unfit until proven otherwise.
https://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and-permits/work-permit-for-fo...
Work permit conditions:
>Not marry a Singapore citizen or permanent resident in or outside Singapore without MOM's approval. This applies even after their Work Permits have expired, been cancelled or revoked.
>Not get pregnant or deliver a child in Singapore during the validity of their Work Permit unless they are already married to a Singapore citizen or permanent resident with MOM's approval. This applies even after their Work Permits have expired, been cancelled or revoked.
https://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and-permits/work-permit-for-fo...
>As an employer, you must send your female Work Permit holders for medical screening every 6 months. This medical examination screens for pregnancy and infectious diseases such as syphilis, HIV and tuberculosis.
Note how they prohibit marriage outside Singapore even after the permit expires. It's clear what it means. If you've ever had a work permit, you're marked as unfit until proven otherwise.
"Nearly every jurisdiction on earth"
- citation please. Or did you not learn to provide references at NUS?
- citation please. Or did you not learn to provide references at NUS?
Is there an idea on how often these are approved or denied?
[deleted]
Israel prohibits interfaith marriages.
Couples in Israel can marry abroad (often in Cyprus) and Israel recognises their marriage for the purpose of immigration, inheritance etc (nearly every purpose).
I think this is slightly incorrect: The Israel state does not regulate marriages, it leaves them to religious courts, which in turn make them impossible.
The end result is similar, but the state _will_ recognize a marriage performed abroad (i.e. go to Cyprus, get married, come back), same as same-sex unions.
(I am somewhat confused as to why a christian catholic court won't celebrate an interfaith marriage in Israel, since they are allowed by the church, and there are even specific protocols for jewish/catholic and muslim/catholic marriages, AFAIK)
The end result is similar, but the state _will_ recognize a marriage performed abroad (i.e. go to Cyprus, get married, come back), same as same-sex unions.
(I am somewhat confused as to why a christian catholic court won't celebrate an interfaith marriage in Israel, since they are allowed by the church, and there are even specific protocols for jewish/catholic and muslim/catholic marriages, AFAIK)
The GP is either misinformed or ... (lets hope it's the former).
> (I am somewhat confused as to why a christian catholic court won't celebrate an interfaith marriage in Israel, since they are allowed by the church, and there are even specific protocols for jewish/catholic and muslim/catholic marriages, AFAIK)
The problem is that usually the audience for the mixed marriages are non-halachic Jews, not Christians or Muslims, nor they see themselves as half-Christians.
Another reason is that the Christian churches don't want to intervene into affair of the Jews, even non-halachic ones.
The situation in Israel is nothing comparing to what happens in Lebanon [1]. People there converting for various reasons: from divorce, inheritance to emigration to the Gulf countries!
In a phone interview with Archbishop George Saliba from the Syriac Orthdox Church, he said that they stopped converting other Christian sects into their own sect about 3 years ago, stating that “each person should solve his own problems in his own church”.
--
[1] Converting One’s Religion in Lebanon
https://medium.com/@zubaidajamal/converting-ones-religion-in...
> (I am somewhat confused as to why a christian catholic court won't celebrate an interfaith marriage in Israel, since they are allowed by the church, and there are even specific protocols for jewish/catholic and muslim/catholic marriages, AFAIK)
The problem is that usually the audience for the mixed marriages are non-halachic Jews, not Christians or Muslims, nor they see themselves as half-Christians.
Another reason is that the Christian churches don't want to intervene into affair of the Jews, even non-halachic ones.
The situation in Israel is nothing comparing to what happens in Lebanon [1]. People there converting for various reasons: from divorce, inheritance to emigration to the Gulf countries!
In a phone interview with Archbishop George Saliba from the Syriac Orthdox Church, he said that they stopped converting other Christian sects into their own sect about 3 years ago, stating that “each person should solve his own problems in his own church”.
--
[1] Converting One’s Religion in Lebanon
https://medium.com/@zubaidajamal/converting-ones-religion-in...
> I think this is slightly incorrect: The Israel state does not regulate marriages, it leaves them to religious courts, which in turn make them impossible.
Israel still regulates marriages, because it picks and chooses which religious authorities to recognise for the purpose of marriage, and it does so based on non-objective and non-neutral criteria. It refuses to recognise marriages performed in Israel by non-Orthodox Rabbis, and it doesn't have any neutral/objective reason for doing so, which makes it a form of religious discrimination.
There are other countries who have government recognition of religious marriages on a non-discriminatory basis. For example, in my own country of Australia, the federal government has a list of recognised religious denominations, whose clergy are automatically recognised as legal marriage celebrants – https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2018L01607 – there are published objective criteria to be added to the list – https://www.ag.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-03/Informatio... – and they are all about making sure the religion is real and serious (that it has identifiable leadership and clergy and a significant number of members, that it isn't just some guy in his garage claiming to start his own religion, that it wasn't started yesterday, etc) – it is not about letting the government play favourites with religions or denominations. And I'm not aware of any evidence the government is non-objective or non-neutral in maintaining the list – controversial groups such as Scientology have managed to get themselves added to it. By contrast, if a community of non-Orthodox Jews in Israel want their Rabbi to be able to perform legally recognised marriages, the Israeli government is just going to point blank refuse the request.
Israel still regulates marriages, because it picks and chooses which religious authorities to recognise for the purpose of marriage, and it does so based on non-objective and non-neutral criteria. It refuses to recognise marriages performed in Israel by non-Orthodox Rabbis, and it doesn't have any neutral/objective reason for doing so, which makes it a form of religious discrimination.
There are other countries who have government recognition of religious marriages on a non-discriminatory basis. For example, in my own country of Australia, the federal government has a list of recognised religious denominations, whose clergy are automatically recognised as legal marriage celebrants – https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2018L01607 – there are published objective criteria to be added to the list – https://www.ag.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-03/Informatio... – and they are all about making sure the religion is real and serious (that it has identifiable leadership and clergy and a significant number of members, that it isn't just some guy in his garage claiming to start his own religion, that it wasn't started yesterday, etc) – it is not about letting the government play favourites with religions or denominations. And I'm not aware of any evidence the government is non-objective or non-neutral in maintaining the list – controversial groups such as Scientology have managed to get themselves added to it. By contrast, if a community of non-Orthodox Jews in Israel want their Rabbi to be able to perform legally recognised marriages, the Israeli government is just going to point blank refuse the request.
>And I'm not aware of any evidence the government is non-objective or non-neutral in maintaining the list –
Well, apart from all the religions that have lay priests, such as the Methodists (who predate Australia as a country), Budishm (same), various indigious religions and so on.
You can get around that by not treating one religion special and just let everybody register with the state as they want to. Then it is up to the couple what, if any, religious rites they want (or they can have only the religious rights, and not register with the state).
Well, apart from all the religions that have lay priests, such as the Methodists (who predate Australia as a country), Budishm (same), various indigious religions and so on.
You can get around that by not treating one religion special and just let everybody register with the state as they want to. Then it is up to the couple what, if any, religious rites they want (or they can have only the religious rights, and not register with the state).
> Well, apart from all the religions that have lay priests, such as the Methodists (who predate Australia as a country), Budishm (same), various indigious religions and so on.
The list of recognised denominations I shared – https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2018L01607 – includes four Methodist denominations (Chinese Methodist Church, Methodist Church of Samoa, Welsh Calvinistic Methodist Connexion, Wesleyan Methodist Church; and also the Uniting Church, which is the successor to Australia's historically largest Methodist church), two Buddhist associations (Federation of Australian Buddhist Councils, and International Buddhist Association of Australia), and a group based on indigenous spiritualities (Spirit of the Earth Medicine Society). Given that, I don't think your point is correct.
> You can get around that by not treating one religion special and just let everybody register with the state as they want to. Then it is up to the couple what, if any, religious rites they want (or they can have only the religious rights, and not register with the state).
Australia has civil marriage too – if couples do not want a religious ceremony, they can be married either by a government official or a professional civil celebrant. But, if they do want a religious ceremony, if they have a government-recognised religious ceremony, there is no separate civil marriage ceremony – the government recognises the religious ceremony as its own.
The list of recognised denominations I shared – https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2018L01607 – includes four Methodist denominations (Chinese Methodist Church, Methodist Church of Samoa, Welsh Calvinistic Methodist Connexion, Wesleyan Methodist Church; and also the Uniting Church, which is the successor to Australia's historically largest Methodist church), two Buddhist associations (Federation of Australian Buddhist Councils, and International Buddhist Association of Australia), and a group based on indigenous spiritualities (Spirit of the Earth Medicine Society). Given that, I don't think your point is correct.
> You can get around that by not treating one religion special and just let everybody register with the state as they want to. Then it is up to the couple what, if any, religious rites they want (or they can have only the religious rights, and not register with the state).
Australia has civil marriage too – if couples do not want a religious ceremony, they can be married either by a government official or a professional civil celebrant. But, if they do want a religious ceremony, if they have a government-recognised religious ceremony, there is no separate civil marriage ceremony – the government recognises the religious ceremony as its own.
That's honestly insane...
On the other hand, in Singapore, the act of sex between men is illegal(it's legal for women).
On the other hand, in Singapore, the act of sex between men is illegal(it's legal for women).
The laws of many former British colonies are, unsurprisingly, copypasta of British law from the ~19-20th centuries. The homosexuality law is a case in point. The UK itself has moved on in some areas.
Actually, allowing gay sex between women was a 2007. revision of a British law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Singapore
>Singapore law inherited from the British Empire prohibited sodomy regardless of sex. As such, heterosexual and homosexual anal or oral sex was illegal. In 2007, such sexual activity was legalised for heterosexuals and lesbians, but not for gay men.
Indeed the law was reviewed in 2019 and the government didn't see anything wrong with gay sex between men being illegal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Singapore
>Singapore law inherited from the British Empire prohibited sodomy regardless of sex. As such, heterosexual and homosexual anal or oral sex was illegal. In 2007, such sexual activity was legalised for heterosexuals and lesbians, but not for gay men.
Indeed the law was reviewed in 2019 and the government didn't see anything wrong with gay sex between men being illegal.
Astonishing. Not only the modern conservatism in this regard, but also that lesbianism was legal in the UK even in early C20, so the SG position was even more strict. A morbid but interesting area of study perhaps is the long tail of repressive laws left by the Empire around the world still in force today, particularly in African countries.
One wonders why a country (SG) which professes extreme economic liberalism (well, until it doesn’t…) cares so much about social illiberaism like this. It’s not like the PAP needs to appeal to tubthumping angry populism for votes, is it? (Genuinely asking. I assume that people vote for them on the basis of administrative competence. Wrong?)
Perhaps it’s more a case of “rocking the boat on this topic can only harm us, and gain us nothing”.
One wonders why a country (SG) which professes extreme economic liberalism (well, until it doesn’t…) cares so much about social illiberaism like this. It’s not like the PAP needs to appeal to tubthumping angry populism for votes, is it? (Genuinely asking. I assume that people vote for them on the basis of administrative competence. Wrong?)
Perhaps it’s more a case of “rocking the boat on this topic can only harm us, and gain us nothing”.
> It’s not like the PAP needs to appeal to tubthumping angry populism for votes, is it?
Liberals in Singapore think this is the case. An informal survey at that time observed that a majority were against homosexual relationships and sexual acts. https://web.archive.org/web/20190605181337/https://www.strai...
The ruling party won't throw away legitimacy points just to do what only a minority of its base regards as the ethically correct thing to do.
Liberals in Singapore think this is the case. An informal survey at that time observed that a majority were against homosexual relationships and sexual acts. https://web.archive.org/web/20190605181337/https://www.strai...
The ruling party won't throw away legitimacy points just to do what only a minority of its base regards as the ethically correct thing to do.
If you are a British citizen, and you want to get a spouse visa for your spouse to move to the UK with you, expect to pay over 3000 GBP (over 4000 USD).
Australia is even worse – the standard fee is AUD 7850 (over 5600 USD).
Sure, you can marry anybody you want, but you may not be able to afford the necessary visa so that they can live with you.
The worst thing about the UK – pre-Brexit, any EEA (EU+Norway+Iceland+Liechtenstein) or Swiss national could work in the UK, and get working rights for their spouse too, by applying for a free EEA Family Permit. So citizens of 30 countries could bring their spouses to the UK for free, but UK citizens had to pay over 3000 pounds. There was a workaround, the so-called Surinder Singh route, named after the court decision which established it – a UK citizen could move to an EEA state and accept a job there, and after working there for three months, move back to the UK, and then they were eligible for an EEA Family Permit for their spouse. But it seems heartless to make your own citizens to jump through such loopholes just to have a common life with their spouse, when you'd let citizens of 30 other countries do it for free.
Australia is even worse – the standard fee is AUD 7850 (over 5600 USD).
Sure, you can marry anybody you want, but you may not be able to afford the necessary visa so that they can live with you.
The worst thing about the UK – pre-Brexit, any EEA (EU+Norway+Iceland+Liechtenstein) or Swiss national could work in the UK, and get working rights for their spouse too, by applying for a free EEA Family Permit. So citizens of 30 countries could bring their spouses to the UK for free, but UK citizens had to pay over 3000 pounds. There was a workaround, the so-called Surinder Singh route, named after the court decision which established it – a UK citizen could move to an EEA state and accept a job there, and after working there for three months, move back to the UK, and then they were eligible for an EEA Family Permit for their spouse. But it seems heartless to make your own citizens to jump through such loopholes just to have a common life with their spouse, when you'd let citizens of 30 other countries do it for free.
To be fair, the Australian/UK case is mostly just driven by greed. The Singaporean rules were created to prevent maids "breaking up families" by getting into romantic relationships with male citizens.
In the UK case, is it just greed, or is there more to it than that?
In 2011, David Cameron gave a "hard line speech on immigration" [0]; to quote an article from the time describing it:
> The Government is planning to increase significantly the minimum amount that UK nationals must earn before being allowed to bring a dependent foreign spouse to live in Britain.
> In a hard line speech on immigration today David Cameron will also announce plans to lengthen the time that couples have to be together before they can settle in this country.
> The Prime Minister hopes the measures will reduce the 50,000 visas granted to family members of British citizens every year.
Sounds like there is more to their motivations than simply extracting money from prospective immigrants.
[0] https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-camer...
In 2011, David Cameron gave a "hard line speech on immigration" [0]; to quote an article from the time describing it:
> The Government is planning to increase significantly the minimum amount that UK nationals must earn before being allowed to bring a dependent foreign spouse to live in Britain.
> In a hard line speech on immigration today David Cameron will also announce plans to lengthen the time that couples have to be together before they can settle in this country.
> The Prime Minister hopes the measures will reduce the 50,000 visas granted to family members of British citizens every year.
Sounds like there is more to their motivations than simply extracting money from prospective immigrants.
[0] https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-camer...
Well clearly they're trying to stop immigrant citizens parachuting in less-educated adults from poorer countries through spousal visas, and then have them live on government welfare.
Being able to financially support dependent foreign spouses seems like a very reasonable requirement.
EDIT: The spousal visa requires the sponsor to have an income of £18,600 (about 25,000 US dollars). That's not at all a high income.
Being able to financially support dependent foreign spouses seems like a very reasonable requirement.
EDIT: The spousal visa requires the sponsor to have an income of £18,600 (about 25,000 US dollars). That's not at all a high income.
That's not how the system really works though. They claim they are trying to stop "less-educated adults" who are going to "live on government welfare" – then they make it hard for an Oxbridge-educated doctor who works for the NHS to get a spouse visa for his university-educated wife – https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/home-office-windrush-sc...
> For instance, when my wife was rejected an extension for her spouse visa in 2017 despite us meeting all the requirements, the rejection letter stated that we should leave the UK and continue our marriage in India.
> This decision was passed despite the fact that I was born and brought up in this country and have had a British citizenship throughout. I had worked over 10 years in the NHS. However, in the eyes of a Home Office driven by a Tory-generated hostile environment, none of this was of consequence due to the ethnicity of my wife and I.
> The Home Office was happy to banish another doctor from the short-staffed NHS, and indeed the refusal letter stated that I should leave this country with my wife. My wife, meanwhile, is highly educated, with four degrees and a history of working as a language consultant at SOAS University.
> For instance, when my wife was rejected an extension for her spouse visa in 2017 despite us meeting all the requirements, the rejection letter stated that we should leave the UK and continue our marriage in India.
> This decision was passed despite the fact that I was born and brought up in this country and have had a British citizenship throughout. I had worked over 10 years in the NHS. However, in the eyes of a Home Office driven by a Tory-generated hostile environment, none of this was of consequence due to the ethnicity of my wife and I.
> The Home Office was happy to banish another doctor from the short-staffed NHS, and indeed the refusal letter stated that I should leave this country with my wife. My wife, meanwhile, is highly educated, with four degrees and a history of working as a language consultant at SOAS University.
Shouldn’t they have a maximum income/net worth limit too for sponsors?
What percentage of wealthy Brits sponsor spouses that never seek work (and therefore unlikely to pay tax) but consume gov resources?
What percentage of wealthy Brits sponsor spouses that never seek work (and therefore unlikely to pay tax) but consume gov resources?
Income tax is only one form of tax. UK has a consumption taxes like VAT, Stamp Duty Land Tax etc.
Hah, curious, my first thought was, how is a law going to stop 2 people attracted to each other. But on second thoughts, if the maid knows there's no way she can get married/a passport by boinking the husband, she will find him less attractive.
And before the woke brigade shows up, yes in my -- hopefully not antiquated -- mind, status has a lot of influence in attraction, guys (well women too) want attractive mates to feel good about themselves and women find richer men attractive.
And before the woke brigade shows up, yes in my -- hopefully not antiquated -- mind, status has a lot of influence in attraction, guys (well women too) want attractive mates to feel good about themselves and women find richer men attractive.
Scottish university fees are a similar system. If you are scottish, fees are government paid. The EU forbids treating direct citizens favourably vs other EU citizens, therefore they were required to offer the same to citizens of other EU countries.
Since the EU member was the UK, not Scotland, how they treated _other_ UK citizens was considered an internal matter. So if you were English, Welsh, Northern Irish or non-EU you had to pay, if you were Scottish or other EU nationalities you were paid for.
Since the EU member was the UK, not Scotland, how they treated _other_ UK citizens was considered an internal matter. So if you were English, Welsh, Northern Irish or non-EU you had to pay, if you were Scottish or other EU nationalities you were paid for.
Don't forget the "financial requirement". You need to prove you earn more than £18,600 (more for each child). That's significantly harder to prove if, for some strange reason, you are not a fulltime employee of BigCorp.
> Sure, you can marry anybody you want,
Seems like they can
> but you may not be able to afford the necessary visa so that they can live with you.
“If the problem can be solved by money, then it’s not a problem”
Seems like they can
> but you may not be able to afford the necessary visa so that they can live with you.
“If the problem can be solved by money, then it’s not a problem”
It’s also illegal to be homosexual in Singapore, let alone “spreading gay propaganda”. Government has very tight grip of journalism, so the journalists that Singapore are usually the ones who are bound to be oppressed by the government if they do otherwise.
Work pass holders can absolutely marry Singaporeans. It just takes an extra step. I know you're trying to portray Singapore in the worst possible light, but false claims are not necessary to do so.
Anybody with experience of Singapore knows that despite the shining-libertarian-city facade, certain things are deliberately opaque. There are no "extra steps" for the first caste, EPs get processed blindingly fast.
But when "extra steps" are put in, they are circuit-breakers with the "intent to deny" and no explanation required. The "health measures" to protect Singapore during COVID were implemented by the Ministry of Manpower.
The "optics" as Singaporeans would say, are bad on the face of it. The reality is worse. I, with my November 2007 account, feel the need to use a sock-puppet on HN!
But when "extra steps" are put in, they are circuit-breakers with the "intent to deny" and no explanation required. The "health measures" to protect Singapore during COVID were implemented by the Ministry of Manpower.
The "optics" as Singaporeans would say, are bad on the face of it. The reality is worse. I, with my November 2007 account, feel the need to use a sock-puppet on HN!
EP holders, being upper caste, can marry Singaporeans and I noted so above. WP holders require approval, which is granted or not on opaque grounds and frequently denied.
https://www.mom.gov.sg/faq/foreign-worker/as-a-work-permit-h...
https://www.asiaone.com/print/News/Latest%2BNews/Singapore/S...
https://www.mom.gov.sg/faq/foreign-worker/as-a-work-permit-h...
https://www.asiaone.com/print/News/Latest%2BNews/Singapore/S...
What's the reason for this? I assume it's to combat marriage fraud, but is that not the case?
Lee Kuan Yew's theories of eugenics and fear of maids having anchor babies and breaking upstanding Singaporean nuclear families.
https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2021/06/16/when-pregnancy-is-...
https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2021/06/16/when-pregnancy-is-...
There’s also PEP - personalized employment pass. It’s something in between of pr and ep.
There's a long-term visit pass (LTVP), which is what I hold. LTVP holders may be given a pre-approved letter of consent (PLOC) which allows them to seek employment basically as freely as a PR (I also hold a PLOC).
"To be eligible for a Letter of Consent, you need to be one of the following:
https://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and-permits/letter-of-consent/...
An LTVP/LTVP+ holder who is married to a Singaporean or PR.
An unmarried child (under 21 years old) of a Singaporean or PR, who holds an LTVP.https://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and-permits/letter-of-consent/...
As opposed to EPs, you only get one PEP issued and they last 5 years. Once your time is up, you're either meant to be a PR or your back onto an EP. They upped the minimum salary requirements to 12k/month a few years ago.
3 years. I was holding a PEP, it’s 3 years. It used to be 5 I guess.
It looks like the validity was reduced in 2020.
There used to be a "red card," or a 10 year renewable visa for high net worth individuals (1m+ if I remember correct)
Sounds like ancient Greek city-states. Wild.
Military service? Aside from the coastguard what kind of army does Singapore even need?!
It's in an important strategic location. Ships going between China and Europe generally pass through the straight.
https://www.businessinsider.com/singapore-military-best-air-... Singapore has one of the best armies in the world, ostensibly to protect itself from Malaysia/Indonesia.
The same kind as Switzerland, one big enough to make it obviously not worthwhile to try and conquer. It takes 30 minutes by road from Johor to the heart of Singapore.
There was plently of conflict with Malaysia. Don't know about the current situation though.
https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2021/06/16/when-pregnancy-is-... is an interesting example of how maids/helpers are treated. If wonder if it had anything to do with Singapore kicking Yale out of the Yale-NUS partnership?
Perhaps you've seen it as well but there's definitely a "reverse caste" amongst the FDWs/helpers of who (in terms of nationality) they want to work for.
Just the classification in Singapore. PRs are kind of an "in between".
"Foreign worker" means being on a work-visa, in Singapore this means you have very few rights and your stay is motivated only by your job. You get 30d to land a new job and pass the visa process, which takes minimum two weeks. Or get out.
Long term visit passes are provided for spouses and children of citizens/PRs, they can apply to be allowed to work.
Dependent passes are the same but for foreign workers, they may not apply work in Singapore.
Permanent Resident is the only way for a foreigner to stay long term and work in Singapore out of their own merit. And the requirement are probably more like what you expect for citizenship.
Currently it's essentially impossible to become citizen if you were not born to Singaporean citizens. However in the past citizenship has been offered to PR-holders.
Long term visit passes are provided for spouses and children of citizens/PRs, they can apply to be allowed to work.
Dependent passes are the same but for foreign workers, they may not apply work in Singapore.
Permanent Resident is the only way for a foreigner to stay long term and work in Singapore out of their own merit. And the requirement are probably more like what you expect for citizenship.
Currently it's essentially impossible to become citizen if you were not born to Singaporean citizens. However in the past citizenship has been offered to PR-holders.
mmmm yes, but this question is fundamentally trying to stick a person into 1 of 2 buckets.
Singapore and many other countries recognize immigrants, which is what the PR/Green card/etc bucket is for - a merit path to citizenship.
Doesn't have to be so black and white.
Singapore and many other countries recognize immigrants, which is what the PR/Green card/etc bucket is for - a merit path to citizenship.
Doesn't have to be so black and white.
> but the loss of Permanent Residents (6.2%) and Citizens (0.7%).
Seem like an artifact of the measurement system.
From your link,
> “Travel restrictions during the pandemic was the main factor affecting the size of the (citizen) and PR population in 2021, as more (citizens) and PRs were staying overseas continuously for 12 months or more, who therefore were not counted as part of the resident population,” the National Population and Talent Division said.
Seem like an artifact of the measurement system.
From your link,
> “Travel restrictions during the pandemic was the main factor affecting the size of the (citizen) and PR population in 2021, as more (citizens) and PRs were staying overseas continuously for 12 months or more, who therefore were not counted as part of the resident population,” the National Population and Talent Division said.
Citizens and PRs of Singapore were always able to return to Singapore, even now.
The ones staying outside the country are doing so voluntarily. So I’m ok with how they counted it - if the US citizen population decreased due to people leaving and staying outside the country that seems like a fair measure.
The ones staying outside the country are doing so voluntarily. So I’m ok with how they counted it - if the US citizen population decreased due to people leaving and staying outside the country that seems like a fair measure.
People who go back and forth often, thus will usually be counted in the census, might not be able to or not want to do so. They might not want to risk getting lock out of the other country and there might be quarantine requirements they do not want to be subjected to.
A few Singaporean friends just sold their condos recently (with sizable returns). The real estate market is still going bullish in the past 5 years. Doesn't appear to be impacted by the population shrink at all.
I lived in both Singapore and Sydney, and Singapore is cheaper
- food is cheaper in SG
- apartments were cheaper in Singapore. Sydney has become expensive
- taxes are lower in Singapore
- public transport is cheaper in Singapore
- alcohol is expensive in both places
- My company in Singapore paid medical, but in Australia I had to pay my own medical insurance
- In Singapore I got paid all cash but in Australia it's required to contribute to Super which is a horrible system compared to what America got
- Expat salaries are higher than in Australia
Singapore has also public housing(HDBs) for locals which are more affordable. Sydney has no affordable housing at all.
I'd say I saved 30-40k more in SG every year.
Singapore has also public housing(HDBs) for locals which are more affordable. Sydney has no affordable housing at all.
I'd say I saved 30-40k more in SG every year.
1.2% drop in Hong Kong
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/society/article/3144845/...
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/society/article/3144845/...
Similar to other developed nations, Singapore has been experiencing a dwindling birth rate and ageing population.
>> And area where other developing countries like India are in position of advantage, but need to channel right.
>> And area where other developing countries like India are in position of advantage, but need to channel right.
At what point do we just admit that this is being done intentionally by governments?
The easiest way to tackle climate change is to drastically reduce the population. Short of genocide - which only authoritarian governments can pull off - the easiest way is to set up an environment that puts as many barriers as possible on reproduction.
Make children extremely expensive so that only the elites can have multiple children. Inflate the cost of everything so it's impossible for a single-worker household to survive, and the cost of a third mouth to feed/educate/raise prohibitive. Then sit back and wait a generation or two. It's China's one child policy, but applied globally, through economics and social dynamics.
/tin foil hat off, but I also wouldn't entirely be surprised if there's a meeting precisely on this at Davos every year.
The easiest way to tackle climate change is to drastically reduce the population. Short of genocide - which only authoritarian governments can pull off - the easiest way is to set up an environment that puts as many barriers as possible on reproduction.
Make children extremely expensive so that only the elites can have multiple children. Inflate the cost of everything so it's impossible for a single-worker household to survive, and the cost of a third mouth to feed/educate/raise prohibitive. Then sit back and wait a generation or two. It's China's one child policy, but applied globally, through economics and social dynamics.
/tin foil hat off, but I also wouldn't entirely be surprised if there's a meeting precisely on this at Davos every year.
False, you need more workers to implement green energy and figure out geo engineering.
I am all for reducing human population but your proposal isn't all that different from genocide and slavery. I. Not looking forward to the day when laws will say what someone is allowed to do based on their wealth.
> It's China's one child policy, but applied globally, through economics and social dynamics.
Ironically, they repealed that policy because it was having a negative effect.
> Make children extremely expensive so that only the elites can have multiple children.
Another irony since it's the elites that tend to not have many children, not the poor.
Ironically, they repealed that policy because it was having a negative effect.
> Make children extremely expensive so that only the elites can have multiple children.
Another irony since it's the elites that tend to not have many children, not the poor.
Funnily enough, childbirth is intrinsically expensive for a woman in terms of costs to their health and time, so simply giving women financial independence and birth control methods (IUD/pills/condoms) will drive down the birth rate regardless of other variables.
What do you mean?
India is right now young and poor. If 3 decades it will be old and poor. Cannot escape population explosion consequences.
It may not be rich like first world, but reaching Mexico level per capita income and a safety net for basic needs + education and basic healthcare is possible within 3 decades. Corruption is reducing, infrastructure is being built like China of 2000s (almost) and a connected world is a very different place from what was possible 20 years back.
"Corruption is reducing" is outright lie. Its increasing and the way Indians are seeking west life it is expected increase more.
https://tradingeconomics.com/india/corruption-rank
These days people want luxurious life. Those days are simply gone where people would be satisfy wit basic needs + education. And with the advent of social media like facebook/instagram where people tends to show off a lot this will make the situation more worst.
https://tradingeconomics.com/india/corruption-rank
These days people want luxurious life. Those days are simply gone where people would be satisfy wit basic needs + education. And with the advent of social media like facebook/instagram where people tends to show off a lot this will make the situation more worst.
India's corruption rank was 94 before Modi came, and is currently 85, which is the highest it has been since Modi came. It has reduced quite a bit I'd say.
Not perfect, but i am seing improvements as more government services are moving online.
One example is passport. Previously it took few months and you had to bribe multiple offices to get a passport faster. Now you get passport within a week. And the only physical link left is the police verification. Vehicle registration, transfer etc also moved online recently and reduced the scope of bribe there. Land registration and records are also in the process of moving online.
But on the other side, corruption at political level etc are not reducing .
One example is passport. Previously it took few months and you had to bribe multiple offices to get a passport faster. Now you get passport within a week. And the only physical link left is the police verification. Vehicle registration, transfer etc also moved online recently and reduced the scope of bribe there. Land registration and records are also in the process of moving online.
But on the other side, corruption at political level etc are not reducing .
Indian fertility rates are also at near replacement levels. In many states below.
It is not just a developed country issue.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_union_ter...
It is not just a developed country issue.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_union_ter...
Corruption will hold back India for at least another 20 years from achieving what Singapore has. Probably a lot more, and maybe never.
Wow .... The city of Bangalore in India is bigger than singapore. let us at least consider scale while comparing countries. Comparing India and singapore is like comparing an ant to an elephant.
With right immigration policies developed nations can manage it. You can import educated/productive individuals from India with limited liability for decades.
Oh great, it seems that population growth globally is slowing due to low birth rates and aging populations. The population/climate bomb cultists like Bill Gates should be pleased by this… it’ll give earth and its parasitic inhabitants easily another decade or two of (admittedly miserable) existence :)
Kidding of course. I’ll be eating cheeseburgers and driving a V8 full sized pickup into oblivion (even if I have to become a cattle rancher to do so). No regrets, the world that the “Great Reset” is creating is not one worth living in.
Kidding of course. I’ll be eating cheeseburgers and driving a V8 full sized pickup into oblivion (even if I have to become a cattle rancher to do so). No regrets, the world that the “Great Reset” is creating is not one worth living in.
It's been pretty hard to enter Singapore travel wise since the pandemic started. I imagine some of the residents left to be able to travel around.
They are stuck aboard thus not counted,
> “Travel restrictions during the pandemic was the main factor affecting the size of the (citizen) and PR population in 2021, as more (citizens) and PRs were staying overseas continuously for 12 months or more, who therefore were not counted as part of the resident population,” the National Population and Talent Division said.
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/singapore-populati...
> “Travel restrictions during the pandemic was the main factor affecting the size of the (citizen) and PR population in 2021, as more (citizens) and PRs were staying overseas continuously for 12 months or more, who therefore were not counted as part of the resident population,” the National Population and Talent Division said.
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/singapore-populati...
Approximately 150,000 ex-pat workers (maybe ~10% of the total ex-pat population) left in the 12 months from June 2020-June 2021. https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/spores-total...
The SG gov has been celebrating this, with some of them going so far as to say that 'foreigners' are 'ballast to be shed' during tougher times. https://twitter.com/wongdouglas/status/1298802033462394881?l...
The SG gov has been celebrating this, with some of them going so far as to say that 'foreigners' are 'ballast to be shed' during tougher times. https://twitter.com/wongdouglas/status/1298802033462394881?l...
There exist few talking points as odious as the myopic GDP-focused complaining about "population decreases" in developing nations and how they must be overcome by the unrestrained importing of labor.
Liberal societal goals (many of which I happen to support) include preservation of the natural environment, robust sovereignty of oppressed indigenous populations, increased availability of housing and resources, and in general an profound sense of the importance of any individual within their community. Every single one of these goals becomes easier to achieve the fewer people there are within a single geographic area, so why are these complaints about declining populations always coming from left-leaning thinkers and speakers? (I know Reuters isn't exactly left wing, but the language they're using is identical to 'progressive' politicians all over the west.)
The time immediately following the Black Death in Europe was a massive boon for the (surviving) commoner. When people talk about declining populations in Western countries, I imagine razing the unsustainable, disgusting post-war boomtowns, layering farmland and forest over their remains, and pushing a philosophy of local self-reliance born out of community solidarity. It is truly unnerving to see so many publications talk about this issue and imply that the only hope for any nation with a declining population is to bring in as much supplementary labor as possible. I can only hope the people of Singapore are happy with whatever their economic leaders have decided is best for them.
Liberal societal goals (many of which I happen to support) include preservation of the natural environment, robust sovereignty of oppressed indigenous populations, increased availability of housing and resources, and in general an profound sense of the importance of any individual within their community. Every single one of these goals becomes easier to achieve the fewer people there are within a single geographic area, so why are these complaints about declining populations always coming from left-leaning thinkers and speakers? (I know Reuters isn't exactly left wing, but the language they're using is identical to 'progressive' politicians all over the west.)
The time immediately following the Black Death in Europe was a massive boon for the (surviving) commoner. When people talk about declining populations in Western countries, I imagine razing the unsustainable, disgusting post-war boomtowns, layering farmland and forest over their remains, and pushing a philosophy of local self-reliance born out of community solidarity. It is truly unnerving to see so many publications talk about this issue and imply that the only hope for any nation with a declining population is to bring in as much supplementary labor as possible. I can only hope the people of Singapore are happy with whatever their economic leaders have decided is best for them.
I knew a few people who were permanent residents in Singapore for work, and they were not "labor". In fact, I think the population drop would be almost all in the high-skilled professional worker cohort. These are exactly the people you need to achieve those lofty goals.
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The article says "The total population, which includes foreigners who live, work and study in Singapore but are not permanent residents, dropped by 4.1% to 5.45 million people. hat was largely as a result of a 10.7% decrease in its non-resident population."
There are certainly many high-skilled professional workers in that cohort, including the few Singapore residents I know who left, but it's certainly not all.
There are certainly many high-skilled professional workers in that cohort, including the few Singapore residents I know who left, but it's certainly not all.
Foreign workers dropped by 147,000 and if you dig into that number, a decent amount were Employment Pass workers which are generally "highly skilled". The other tend to be more lower skilled/manual labor jobs.
Immigrant bad. Homogenous population good blah blah.
Ah, it's hard to be so ignorant sometimes--when I'm enlightened like you I'll finally be able to understand that relocating 15,000 backwater US conservatives to the Bangkok suburbs would actually be a net benefit for the Thai. Their weak, homogeneous culture needs to be changed for their own good.
How do you tell these people that they should work less. They'll work more than they need and then fiercely compete for limited "full time jobs" or create new ones that nobody wants. Humans aren't smart enough to do tomorrows work today if the there isn't enough work today.
It’s a net benefit for the world.
Malthusianism lives on. Easy to wax lyrical about the Black Death when you haven't lived through the mass extinction of ~50% of your community.
And what about those who didn't, who were born one to four generations after? Malthus is wrong about overpopulation killing through lack of resources, but anyone who disagrees that setting expanding human populations loose on little-populated lands creates more individual agency and personal benefit than trying to fit that same group into an existing crowded and stacked hierarchy is ignorant of history.
Surely you're not implying that population reduction due to a lower birth-rate is as traumatic as living through the Black Death, just because the GP unfortunately used it as an example?
As for Malthusianism - it seems to me the GP is correct in pointing out ecological stress is proportional to human population size, and that the ecosystem is in crisis. Were you hoping we would overlook this fact by calling it "Malthusianism"?
Rarely have I seen so many dishonest arguments compressed into so few words.
As for Malthusianism - it seems to me the GP is correct in pointing out ecological stress is proportional to human population size, and that the ecosystem is in crisis. Were you hoping we would overlook this fact by calling it "Malthusianism"?
Rarely have I seen so many dishonest arguments compressed into so few words.
> As for Malthusianism - it seems to me the GP is correct in pointing out ecological stress is proportional to human population size, and that the ecosystem is in crisis.
Population size? No, the problem is human greed and corruption.
Population size? No, the problem is human greed and corruption.
I'm not saying those aren't a problem. I'm saying that ecological stress is proportional to human population size. Are you claiming we'd have the same ecological problems, of the same severity, if the human population were 1/10th its size?
The claim is so simple and obvious I'm sure you misunderstood it deliberately.
The claim is so simple and obvious I'm sure you misunderstood it deliberately.
Your goals are wildly inappropriate for Singapore, which is a tiny island that has been extensively developed for centuries, and is considerably wealthier than the US. There is essentially zero primary forest left, unskilled foreign workers are far more oppressed than anything approximating an "indigenous population" (most Malays are immigrants and the odd Orang Laut has long since fully assimilated), and Singapore has one of the most successful public housing schemes in the world with something like 80% of the population owning a modern flat.
You're not wrong. I should have done a better job of explaining my point--this discussion about Singapore reminds me of discussion about other wealthy nations that uses the same phrases and focus, which is what I commented on
Singapore itself is a very strange nation, utterly dependent on other nations to provide it with almost everything it uses (food, machinery, raw product, etc). The fact that it can be managed like a reality-themed theme park is a testament to the ability of first-worlders to press-gang the rest of the world into service. Turning it into a real, self-sustaining nation with wildlife and personal independence is impossible.
Singapore itself is a very strange nation, utterly dependent on other nations to provide it with almost everything it uses (food, machinery, raw product, etc). The fact that it can be managed like a reality-themed theme park is a testament to the ability of first-worlders to press-gang the rest of the world into service. Turning it into a real, self-sustaining nation with wildlife and personal independence is impossible.
Finally some good news.
More people in SG are choosing to marry later, have kids later, or have fewer kids. Many people register a marriage just to qualify for subsidised HDB housing, get that out of the way and focus on their careers.
Talking about children, schools and universities are highly subsidised for citizens, and somewhat discounted for PRs. For example [1] a citizen admitted to the National University of Singapore to study engineering pays $8,200 (about US$6,050) a year vs the $38,200 a year that an international student without any subsidies would pay.
This differentiation is even more marked for primary and secondary schools and junior colleges [2] for example a citizen pays $0 in primary school fees while a foreigner pays up to $775++ a month. A permanent resident attending secondary school pays $400 a months vs about $20-25 for a citizen.
This is a direct incentive for citizens to have more children, but also discourages PRs and foreigners from having children in SG, or to remain in SG for a long time if they don't plan to become citizens.
Healthcare is also subsidised for citizens, you are covered by the CPF (pension scheme) MediShield plan, or a linked insurance policy, whereas PRs pay more and non-PRs have no CPF coverage.
In my experience, what you're seeing here is a readjustment towards a new normal, nothing alarming, and probably what was planned all along.
[1] NUS tuition fees: https://www.nus.edu.sg/registrar/administrative-policies-pro...
[2] MOE school fees: https://www.moe.gov.sg/financial-matters/fees