Crews are abandoned on ships in record numbers without pay, food or a way home(wsj.com)
wsj.com
Crews are abandoned on ships in record numbers without pay, food or a way home
https://www.wsj.com/articles/crews-are-abandoned-on-ships-in-record-numbers-without-pay-food-or-a-way-home-11633699978
263 comments
A-B, usually AB, is an able body seaman. This is the lowest level of certification for the deck department of a merchant ship.
https://www.mitags.org/course/able-seaman-course/
https://www.mitags.org/course/able-seaman-course/
Lowest is Ordinary Seaman (OS). This is the entry level rating in the deck department. The only qualifications required are basic safety and firefighting training. The corresponding entry level rating in the engine department is Wiper.
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And, your outrage does nothing, because people who mistreat others professionally are quite used to the complaining, including yours. I am not at all surprised at this article.
I enjoyed your post until this sentence. The article describes a situation gradually deteriorating into a crisis. The barrier between people complaining and things actually happening are indeed high but I still believe taking note of a crisis is a first step to acting.
I enjoyed your post until this sentence. The article describes a situation gradually deteriorating into a crisis. The barrier between people complaining and things actually happening are indeed high but I still believe taking note of a crisis is a first step to acting.
> taking note of a crisis is a first step to acting.
Yes, in the same way overcoming denial is the first step in personal recovery. The trouble is, like a depressed alcoholic who doesn't care that drink's ruining their life, it's not that those running the company are in denial about the way they're abusing their employees. It's that they know it and don't care.
What's the path from here to them caring, though? One thing that might help is if their clients stopped doing business with them, but do their clients care?
Yes, in the same way overcoming denial is the first step in personal recovery. The trouble is, like a depressed alcoholic who doesn't care that drink's ruining their life, it's not that those running the company are in denial about the way they're abusing their employees. It's that they know it and don't care.
What's the path from here to them caring, though? One thing that might help is if their clients stopped doing business with them, but do their clients care?
The shipping company’s clients will stop doing business with them if the shipping company cared, by switching to their competitors who do not care and will sell to them at lower prices.
The only solutions are political, with some combination of giving those people being subject to abuse better options so that the abusers are not able to abuse, and by making said abuses illegal.
The only solutions are political, with some combination of giving those people being subject to abuse better options so that the abusers are not able to abuse, and by making said abuses illegal.
Suppose Denmark/the EU passes laws that require Maersk to operate ethically. Maersk and all other Danish shipping companies now need to charge their customers more, so won't what you said in the first line just happen at the international level, with clients switching to, say, a Chinese shipping company?
Possibly, but Denmark/EU could also require proof of meeting certain labor standards in order for ships to dock. Many times, the political problem is getting global adherence. See pollution and emissions.
> I enjoyed your post until this sentence.
Why? The problem with complaining (such as in an echo chamber like HN often is too) is that it is a way to vent frustration, taking the pressure of an issue. So in a way complaining actually helps the ones you are complaining about.
Why? The problem with complaining (such as in an echo chamber like HN often is too) is that it is a way to vent frustration, taking the pressure of an issue. So in a way complaining actually helps the ones you are complaining about.
That's an unlikely counterfactual. Most likely if you don't complain, fewer people are aware it's even a problem and the company would just assume no one cares.
It's quite easy to produce a counterexample to your claim. Harvey Weinstein immediately comes to mind. It was complaining that drew attention to his abuses and ultimately led to his conviction.
One man. After decades of complaining.
Not encouraging, really.
Not encouraging, really.
Women equality, #MeToo, sexual consent issues are all pretty much at the forefront of today's cultural issues. Harvey was an open and shut case, but don't forget the Supreme Court justice Brett Kavanaugh, or Andrew Cuomo, Louis CK, etc. (Some weather the accusation (s) some don't.)
i particularly liked that part, because too often it seems people conflate posting for meaningful action, to the point that posting is a hinderence to meaningful action.
this is also common on cruise ships and naval around the world. - officers are european, with more lately east european.
Then the staff or A-B are usually filipino, Vietmanese or Indonesian. Its more salary then back where they're from - and it has interesting cultural changes in their socities.
In the philippines, these are called "OFW" families. daddy is never home, but because he works "abroad" his family can have newer stuff, be in a better neighborhood, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Filipino_Worker
Then the staff or A-B are usually filipino, Vietmanese or Indonesian. Its more salary then back where they're from - and it has interesting cultural changes in their socities.
In the philippines, these are called "OFW" families. daddy is never home, but because he works "abroad" his family can have newer stuff, be in a better neighborhood, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Filipino_Worker
> this is also common on cruise ships and naval around the world. - officers are european, with more lately east european.
> Then the staff or A-B are usually filipino, Vietmanese or Indonesian.
Merchant marine, sure, but naval? Wouldn’t both officers and crew be the nationality of the force in the vast majority of cases?
Merchant marine, sure, but naval? Wouldn’t both officers and crew be the nationality of the force in the vast majority of cases?
this is common amongst all first world industries.
whether it's farming, cruises, factories, transportation, etc.
not supporting it, but that's the current setup.
whether it's farming, cruises, factories, transportation, etc.
not supporting it, but that's the current setup.
Why wouldn't you support it? Seems like a win-win for most parties involved.
Directly, it usually it leads to poor working conditions when you have non-residential workers, especially ones in a quasi-legal status.
For factories, you sometimes have the problem of the factory shutting down after the locals become dependent on it.
For migrant working, it's hard on the children of the family and it causes tension between the families not participating.
Philosophically, one could argue it's exploitation and is very close to slavery except the small amount of pay. Until this type of work is extinct I don't think one can morally campaign for UBI can you?
Currently this type of work is apparently necessary so we've accepted that the system cannot either pay the more wealthy citizen's wage nor up the wage of the foreign workers.
Is there a demand to up the wage of these non-represented workers that make far below minimum wage?
Is there a demand to up the wage of minimal wage for citizens and are the foreign workers mentioned?
Is there a demand for UBI for citizens to not work at all while foreign workers pick up the slack?
For factories, you sometimes have the problem of the factory shutting down after the locals become dependent on it.
For migrant working, it's hard on the children of the family and it causes tension between the families not participating.
Philosophically, one could argue it's exploitation and is very close to slavery except the small amount of pay. Until this type of work is extinct I don't think one can morally campaign for UBI can you?
Currently this type of work is apparently necessary so we've accepted that the system cannot either pay the more wealthy citizen's wage nor up the wage of the foreign workers.
Is there a demand to up the wage of these non-represented workers that make far below minimum wage?
Is there a demand to up the wage of minimal wage for citizens and are the foreign workers mentioned?
Is there a demand for UBI for citizens to not work at all while foreign workers pick up the slack?
UBI is income redistribution. It will always be immoral for those paying to support others who are not working.
What you describe is not exploitation, people are working of their own will and that's the best deal they can have.
When you'll eliminate those jobs with income redistribution and minimum wage those people (especially if they're coming in from a different, poorer country) will just be out of a job.
What you describe is not exploitation, people are working of their own will and that's the best deal they can have.
When you'll eliminate those jobs with income redistribution and minimum wage those people (especially if they're coming in from a different, poorer country) will just be out of a job.
A prostitute can be exploited by a pimp even though it's her own will to work vs be homeless under a bridge. It's the "best deal she has".
It may be the best option for these people, but you are exploiting their poverty for your profit, otherwise you'd pay the minimum wage.
It's the people who cry minimum wage hikes while exploiting this business that make my blood boil.
I agree about UBI, it's immoral, period.
It may be the best option for these people, but you are exploiting their poverty for your profit, otherwise you'd pay the minimum wage.
It's the people who cry minimum wage hikes while exploiting this business that make my blood boil.
I agree about UBI, it's immoral, period.
Our government has bailed out banks multiple times, injected money into the stock market, the airlines, a constant state of war that has lasted since Bush one that has cost trillions of dollars... but UBI that can have its cost reduced by drawing its budget from social security, disability and welfare, that's the one that makes your blood boil?
Many things can make my blood boil, but this thing was the topic. (cough whataboutism cough)
But yes people supporting near slave labor while also wanting UBI does make my blood boil, lazy fucks.
As does child-trafficking, bank bailouts, defense contract laundering, nepotism, etc.
Gotta have ice cold veins to counteract all that blood boiling bullshit in the world, dontcha.
But yes people supporting near slave labor while also wanting UBI does make my blood boil, lazy fucks.
As does child-trafficking, bank bailouts, defense contract laundering, nepotism, etc.
Gotta have ice cold veins to counteract all that blood boiling bullshit in the world, dontcha.
Some of it is whataboutism, sure. A direct line can be drawn to bank bailouts, airline bailouts, no bid government contracts, military spending and UBI. Our government has decided to supplement the income of some and not others and expected something in return. UBI can be viewed in the same light. You can deduct that much from social security, welfare and government college programs. Those are easy ones, right there. Now it gets more difficult, but that's no small amount - and I'm only talking about the proposed 12K per year UBI. You seem to be under the assumption that people are just going to kick back and retire in Cabo on this, for some reason. You can cut some treatment subsidy programs, because at that point, if a junkie wants to get clean that's where that money should go. Prisoner's payouts get cut, and in America that's not a small amount.
This is a 5 minute budget analysis and not even a real thought process, but people get so emotional about these things that all rational thought goes by the wayside of any benefits that might occur. People might not have so much worry about job insecurity of being one bill away from homelessness. Higher education would be more attainable for so many people. A single income family might be able to take care of a child while one of the parents focused on educating and helping the child become a decent member of society.
If you don't want to help fix the present and the future then you shouldn't complain about it. If you're fine with the direction everything is going, then that's great.
This is a 5 minute budget analysis and not even a real thought process, but people get so emotional about these things that all rational thought goes by the wayside of any benefits that might occur. People might not have so much worry about job insecurity of being one bill away from homelessness. Higher education would be more attainable for so many people. A single income family might be able to take care of a child while one of the parents focused on educating and helping the child become a decent member of society.
If you don't want to help fix the present and the future then you shouldn't complain about it. If you're fine with the direction everything is going, then that's great.
One thing that I've always been curious about with UBI is why not aim to self-sufficiency?
In that, say the US pays UBI, which people use to purchase basic goods, which come from non-US manufacturers.
(and I realize this next flies in the face of 200 years of economic theory)
... But if UBI is a bridge to a post-scarcity society, then shouldn't the emphasis be on post-scarcity? Not just redirecting funds? Which is to say, funding highly automated manufacturing of basic, non-customized, functional good to zero?
In that, say the US pays UBI, which people use to purchase basic goods, which come from non-US manufacturers.
(and I realize this next flies in the face of 200 years of economic theory)
... But if UBI is a bridge to a post-scarcity society, then shouldn't the emphasis be on post-scarcity? Not just redirecting funds? Which is to say, funding highly automated manufacturing of basic, non-customized, functional good to zero?
You'll never get the prices of food, warmth and shelter down to zero, even if these commodities are no longer scarce.
The present system requires you to have active hands in the creation of these commodities or you don't get a share. In the face of increasing efficiencies, offshoring, etc. people's offer of labor may not find a buyer, making them unemployable. That's where UBI comes in, to assure that post-scarcity is enjoyed by all, not just those that have marketable labor.
Where this gets complicated is the moralizing. But it's not the moral thing to let your neighbor starve when you've got surplus food, even if there's some game theory that you will generate free riders, or some of these people aren't "deserving", or working folks divert a little bit more of the fruits of their labor than they already do, or other societies that are a race to the bottom of human welfare will out-compete us.
The present system requires you to have active hands in the creation of these commodities or you don't get a share. In the face of increasing efficiencies, offshoring, etc. people's offer of labor may not find a buyer, making them unemployable. That's where UBI comes in, to assure that post-scarcity is enjoyed by all, not just those that have marketable labor.
Where this gets complicated is the moralizing. But it's not the moral thing to let your neighbor starve when you've got surplus food, even if there's some game theory that you will generate free riders, or some of these people aren't "deserving", or working folks divert a little bit more of the fruits of their labor than they already do, or other societies that are a race to the bottom of human welfare will out-compete us.
Why is it immoral? Is there an objective morality?
It would be immoral to redistribute the real property someone worked on.
I have no issue with income distribution of a social value store since allowing it to be monopolized to prop up the value of a minority rich, to let millions starve, or die of preventable disease is immoral and violent.
I don’t believe Elon Musk is worth billions. I just can’t take his real stuff.
Letting our social value store be co-opted by a handful of memes isn’t exactly free agency, speech, or market of ideas. When “get job, buy stuff” is the one true sentence, why believe ideas like freedom matter?
I have no issue with income distribution of a social value store since allowing it to be monopolized to prop up the value of a minority rich, to let millions starve, or die of preventable disease is immoral and violent.
I don’t believe Elon Musk is worth billions. I just can’t take his real stuff.
Letting our social value store be co-opted by a handful of memes isn’t exactly free agency, speech, or market of ideas. When “get job, buy stuff” is the one true sentence, why believe ideas like freedom matter?
I don’t follow your reasoning. How are memes changing or impacting currency?
The other commenter summed it up.
Money is an abstract distributed ledger conceived of from our old way of imprinting quantity on clay tablets, to track trade.
We’re lead around by gossip, fads, trends… memes… where to look for the best paying jobs, sales… by restricting acceptable discourse around not the literal solution to problems, but the expectations we solve them for corporations to own, and leverage for profit with “fair apportionment” dictated by Byzantine economic math not even the experts can penetrate (there was just a story on HN about how no one knows who owns what in any clear way; it’s all ad hoc to fit a narrative; Google Varoufakis)
We’re told that’s just how it goes and it’s all correct and politically policed for correctness. Yet last year we saw in the news they just hand out hundreds of millions to those in the political network and make everyone else work for them in return.
Relative network effects are the reality of physics and it makes a good concept for understanding society. Adam Smith called for equality of condition to prevent gross inequality and extreme division of labor making for humans dumber than any animal (paraphrasing).
Bring on the universal healthcare, and economics that protect the biological well-being of all people first and force austerity on a minority in the form of an aristocracy
Money is an abstract distributed ledger conceived of from our old way of imprinting quantity on clay tablets, to track trade.
We’re lead around by gossip, fads, trends… memes… where to look for the best paying jobs, sales… by restricting acceptable discourse around not the literal solution to problems, but the expectations we solve them for corporations to own, and leverage for profit with “fair apportionment” dictated by Byzantine economic math not even the experts can penetrate (there was just a story on HN about how no one knows who owns what in any clear way; it’s all ad hoc to fit a narrative; Google Varoufakis)
We’re told that’s just how it goes and it’s all correct and politically policed for correctness. Yet last year we saw in the news they just hand out hundreds of millions to those in the political network and make everyone else work for them in return.
Relative network effects are the reality of physics and it makes a good concept for understanding society. Adam Smith called for equality of condition to prevent gross inequality and extreme division of labor making for humans dumber than any animal (paraphrasing).
Bring on the universal healthcare, and economics that protect the biological well-being of all people first and force austerity on a minority in the form of an aristocracy
I'm not sure exactly which ideas the other commenter was referring to, but of course currency is affected by memes. Currency is a meme: it only has value due to the widespread idea that it should have value.
> Currency is a meme: it only has value due to the widespread idea that it should have value.
It would be nice if people spent just a tiny amount of time studying economics before pronouncing on it.
A US dollar, for example, is backed by the "full faith and credit of the United States Government", and this has an objectively measurable value (because there are pairs of almost identical securities where one has "full faith and credit" and the other doesn't).
Unless your argument is "all securities and currencies are imaginary," of course, which has no practical value.
Please note that I'm a far-left socialist and I consider capitalism destructive to the planet. But that doesn't mean I don't believe in economics.
It would be nice if people spent just a tiny amount of time studying economics before pronouncing on it.
A US dollar, for example, is backed by the "full faith and credit of the United States Government", and this has an objectively measurable value (because there are pairs of almost identical securities where one has "full faith and credit" and the other doesn't).
Unless your argument is "all securities and currencies are imaginary," of course, which has no practical value.
Please note that I'm a far-left socialist and I consider capitalism destructive to the planet. But that doesn't mean I don't believe in economics.
Economics are real, but the flow of currency is not economics. The flow of currency is politically influenced and has nothing to do with human trade for humans sake (economics as commonly understood but not actually since it’s conflated with currency movement).
What we should realize through the study of economics is just how screwed things are. Anyone with any math sense should see inflation deflates buying power for the public, and has nothing to do with real trade but belief that a billionaire is leveraging real property so well on his own… oh wait all of humanity serves him by not changing the rules to serve themselves. What a convenient self fulfilling prophecy.
The math makes it obvious which people are winning and science makes it obvious no one is more than one of seven billion. Somehow it’s miraculously a specific few winning big.
Stop listening to it all. People trade. That’s it. There’s no need to speculate and manage the behavior to send billionaires in space on empty promises of humans …magically… becoming the first space faring civ. Sure seems to give Bezos a helluva life. I’m crazy though; humanity has never succumbed to shared fallacy at scale before.
Who knows, maybe healthcare and education for all actually empower the kid who goes on to engineer the next big leap, but contemporary political memes filter those break throughs out by miserly tracking currency debts.
What we should realize through the study of economics is just how screwed things are. Anyone with any math sense should see inflation deflates buying power for the public, and has nothing to do with real trade but belief that a billionaire is leveraging real property so well on his own… oh wait all of humanity serves him by not changing the rules to serve themselves. What a convenient self fulfilling prophecy.
The math makes it obvious which people are winning and science makes it obvious no one is more than one of seven billion. Somehow it’s miraculously a specific few winning big.
Stop listening to it all. People trade. That’s it. There’s no need to speculate and manage the behavior to send billionaires in space on empty promises of humans …magically… becoming the first space faring civ. Sure seems to give Bezos a helluva life. I’m crazy though; humanity has never succumbed to shared fallacy at scale before.
Who knows, maybe healthcare and education for all actually empower the kid who goes on to engineer the next big leap, but contemporary political memes filter those break throughs out by miserly tracking currency debts.
It's not a matter of supporting hiring people of different nationalities. It's supporting the current conditions surrounding these employees. If these workers are not of a legal status, then they are easily abused (working conditions/below minimum pay/etc). These workers are more fearful of being deported than the abuse which means they do not report any of the wrongs that may be occurring. To me, this says much more about the employer.
I’m 100% against having a ruling upper class and hard labor lower class, especially one determined by nationality. It’s disgusting and something we left behind in the 19th century until international capitalism reinvented it.
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> your outrage does nothing
It's a trendy thing to say these days, but history shows that outrage and public opinion do quite a lot, and that is why people work very hard to manage it (including, these days, to try to appear unbothered). There are plenty of labor laws that the public has passed, and you can see, for example, SV companies responses to publicized labor abuses in their supply chains.
It's a trendy thing to say these days, but history shows that outrage and public opinion do quite a lot, and that is why people work very hard to manage it (including, these days, to try to appear unbothered). There are plenty of labor laws that the public has passed, and you can see, for example, SV companies responses to publicized labor abuses in their supply chains.
The outrage could lead to autonomous ships.
History shows that outrage does something, when it turns into laws. Todays outrage is managed ressource going nowhere.
What about the effects of #Metoo, racial injustice protests, LGTBQ+ marriage, transgender protections (and discrimination - outrage results in bad laws too), gun rights outrage, voter ID laws, etc etc etc.
Lots is happening.
Also, outrage doesn't need laws to be effective: Plenty of corporations do things that aren't legally required, in order to please the public. The NFL didn't have to address racial injustice, but it did. Bad things happen too - lynchings, for example.
Lots is happening.
Also, outrage doesn't need laws to be effective: Plenty of corporations do things that aren't legally required, in order to please the public. The NFL didn't have to address racial injustice, but it did. Bad things happen too - lynchings, for example.
> gun rights outrage, voter ID laws,
What positive changes have there been about gun control since the Brady Bill in 1994?
What positive changes have there been about voter suppression ever?
What positive changes have there been about gun control since the Brady Bill in 1994?
What positive changes have there been about voter suppression ever?
I didn't say the changes are positive, just that public opinion or outrage causes changes.
Voting rights certainly have advanced many times, including suffrage, voting rights for African-Americans in the 1960s, and smaller advances like motor-voter and mail-in ballots since then. The last few years have been awful, though.
Voting rights certainly have advanced many times, including suffrage, voting rights for African-Americans in the 1960s, and smaller advances like motor-voter and mail-in ballots since then. The last few years have been awful, though.
Of those that have made a difference, the majority are via laws, which was parent's point.
The GP says,
> Todays outrage is managed ressource going nowhere.
I'm saying that it definitely went somewhere, it created major changes, including laws.
> Todays outrage is managed ressource going nowhere.
I'm saying that it definitely went somewhere, it created major changes, including laws.
> History shows that outrage does something, when it turns into laws. Todays outrage is managed ressource going nowhere.
Maybe we're reading it differently? I read:
'Historically, outrage has accomplished things by resulting in laws. Today's outrage is ineffectual because it isn't resulting in laws.'
'Historically, outrage has accomplished things by resulting in laws. Today's outrage is ineffectual because it isn't resulting in laws.'
This is what i ment. Sorry for being imprecise.
I would argue, that this is actually the goal of todays outrage culture- not to change things for the better within the legal framework of a democracy, but to keep the emotional core of a "movement" going.
I would argue, that this is actually the goal of todays outrage culture- not to change things for the better within the legal framework of a democracy, but to keep the emotional core of a "movement" going.
> I would argue, that this is actually the goal of todays outrage culture- not to change things for the better within the legal framework of a democracy, but to keep the emotional core of a "movement" going.
I agree about the priority: It's a reactionary, ideological culture/movement; they need to be against something; members need to demonstrate their ideological adherence by being more and more extreme. Passing outrageous laws can be part of that. Passing constructive laws by bringing people to the table, listening to their needs, and creating consensus would indeed undermine the movement, IMHO.
I agree about the priority: It's a reactionary, ideological culture/movement; they need to be against something; members need to demonstrate their ideological adherence by being more and more extreme. Passing outrageous laws can be part of that. Passing constructive laws by bringing people to the table, listening to their needs, and creating consensus would indeed undermine the movement, IMHO.
It seems like the biggest difference in modern outrage is that you haven't seen the effects yet. Unless you have some data that you'd like to share?
Yeah, that's why so many ships are registered to specific countries too, so they can operate with looser restrictions. It's basically "offshoring" but for the regulations. When I worked in fisheries, I remember seeing so many boats registered to Panama, and never knew why:
http://www.pmacertification.com/advantages-of-registering-a-...
At least a lot of ships actually go to Panama. Many are also registered in Liberia.
> The officers would spend at least 60 days on duty, often more.. without a vacation day
Note that after X weeks on this schedule, the officers commonly get X weeks off at home as well. (Source: my brother is one.) The ABs though are a different story…
Note that after X weeks on this schedule, the officers commonly get X weeks off at home as well. (Source: my brother is one.) The ABs though are a different story…
This sounds fascinating. I'm interested to learn more. How does one go about paying for passage on a cargo ship?
Last time I googled this I found it was quite expensive, basically cruise-level per-night prices, at least in my area. Perhaps if you contact the shipping companies directly you can arrange something cheaper.
I could see them considering a risk factor into that pricing. What "normal" person would look to travel this way? Someone with something to hide perhaps? Someone hoping to skirt some of the more rigorous screening of other travel options, specifically regarding their "luggage"?
I've never done this, but if you read stories by people who have, they appreciate not having 3,000 other tourists on the boat; just a few dozen or so, plus the crew members who don't talk to you.
OP here - there were zero other passengers, and it was exactly the way you say.. the crew did not talk to me.. It was great! many long hours of ocean, days, nights, out in the far blue.. with no computers at all. When I arrived in Japan I was so rested! the passage into Tokyo Bay was so memorable! it takes time.. it was an antidote and clarity..
I have read that too. It seems bizarre that it would be expensive, but there may be a supply an demand issue for the number of people who cannot or will take flight vs. the very limited number of transatlantic and transpacific ship crossings.
Think about it. A ship needs to include essentially a small apartment (with the weight of a small apartment) for a couple weeks (plus food, heat/cooling, electricity, water/sewer, upkeep for the small apartment) whereas for an airplane you just needs to do that for a chair for a few hours. A cruise ship (yes, I know, includes a bunch of luxury amenities, but still the right order of magnitude) has like 30,000 kg per passenger whereas an airplane weighs about 300 kg per passenger.
So whereas ships are more efficient per ton than airplanes, but the end result is that jet air travel is about 5-10 times as efficient per passenger-mile because it's just a chair instead of an apartment. Plus the capital utilization (renting an aluminum chair for a few hours vs a small steel apartment for a few days) aspect.
So whereas ships are more efficient per ton than airplanes, but the end result is that jet air travel is about 5-10 times as efficient per passenger-mile because it's just a chair instead of an apartment. Plus the capital utilization (renting an aluminum chair for a few hours vs a small steel apartment for a few days) aspect.
It is not their core-business like cruises or ferry companies. So there is probably very substantial overhead in coordination, billing and so on. Same goes for anything from any company, technically they can provide service and even might do, but price it is sensible due to extra work is high.
There are probably tax reasons for offering it and they would prefer not too many people to take them up on it
I assume it used to be far more informal and sort of a handshake deal you'd make with the captain, and then the companies formalized it but it was still cheap because no one knew/wanted to do it, but then as the possibility becomes common knowledge, there are way more people who want to do it than there are spots for, so they raise the price.
I couldn't tell you search terms, but ISTR that there a HN user who has a site that finds ships with available berthing and prices.
I enjoyed "The Cargo Ship Diaries" [1] by Niall Doherty about his time traveling as a paid passenger on merchant ships.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21868783-the-cargo-ship-...
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21868783-the-cargo-ship-...
I did an Atlantic crossing on CMA CGM and it was similar. The officers were almost 100% French and everyone else on board (officers and crew) was Filipino. The longest-serving seaman had been on the ship for 18 months, but typical tours are in 6 month blocks.
The most interesting observation I had was that although there was an "officer's rec room" and a "crew's rec room", it ended up being a "French rec room" and a "Filipino rec room". The long tours don't particularly bother me, I think that's somewhat expected with maritime work.
The most interesting observation I had was that although there was an "officer's rec room" and a "crew's rec room", it ended up being a "French rec room" and a "Filipino rec room". The long tours don't particularly bother me, I think that's somewhat expected with maritime work.
Just curious but why specify East Germans versus Germans. Is the Berlin Wall back up?
Every time I meet East Germans, the discussion will inevitably touch the unification and the social tension.
What I heard were complaints on
* privatization by the West and sometimes closure of enterprises. People of age 40 and older remember well the tough years after unification when their parents had no job and had to take a lower-level one.
* they claim that management of states and enterprises was taken over by the Wessies
* a lot of complaints about amerikanization of the culture and aligning with the US in every international policy question under Merkel. I regret I did not ask further about the culture, but just an example: by default radio stations in Germany put American music, more than stations in other Western European countries that I heard. It's very hard to stumble upon songs in German, just as any other language but English. (If you listen to French stations, foreign non-English music is much more probable to hear.)
* East Germans are more atomized and secular. That's similar to other East European contries.
* Women were forced to emansipate in the East, because they needed to work, whereas in the West they could afford being housewifes. And a surprising consequence, in the West a man can't be friends with a married woman -- Ossies living in the West complained of that too.
That's what I've heard from them and some my own superficial impressions from radio. I can't confirm that, but sure it's more or less founded info.
What I heard were complaints on
* privatization by the West and sometimes closure of enterprises. People of age 40 and older remember well the tough years after unification when their parents had no job and had to take a lower-level one.
* they claim that management of states and enterprises was taken over by the Wessies
* a lot of complaints about amerikanization of the culture and aligning with the US in every international policy question under Merkel. I regret I did not ask further about the culture, but just an example: by default radio stations in Germany put American music, more than stations in other Western European countries that I heard. It's very hard to stumble upon songs in German, just as any other language but English. (If you listen to French stations, foreign non-English music is much more probable to hear.)
* East Germans are more atomized and secular. That's similar to other East European contries.
* Women were forced to emansipate in the East, because they needed to work, whereas in the West they could afford being housewifes. And a surprising consequence, in the West a man can't be friends with a married woman -- Ossies living in the West complained of that too.
That's what I've heard from them and some my own superficial impressions from radio. I can't confirm that, but sure it's more or less founded info.
>in the West a man can't be friends with a married woman
Nah, that's no longer true as of today. It used to be like that in the 60+ generation, but among younger people, it really depends on the partners involved.
Nah, that's no longer true as of today. It used to be like that in the 60+ generation, but among younger people, it really depends on the partners involved.
Even decades after reunification, the socioeconomic differences between areas that used to be East and West Germany are still very apparent.
The German reunification should be a lesson for people who believe it's easy to change a country and its economy.
I remember when the reunification started I firmly believed that the East would quickly get up to speed once the Western system was applied there. It should be easy and the Easterners would be happy. Turns out that progress was slow despite enormous investments and the Easterners didn't really appreciate that the West completely ignored things that Easterners actually liked (their "achievements" = "Errungenschaften" was a big word).
When you consider how difficult the process was/is despite East and West Germany being very close culturally it becomes clear that things like "fixing" and "democratizing" countries like Afghanistan and Iraq are pretty hopeless endeavors. I don't think as Westerner you can even remotely understand the culture and the fact that maybe the people there don't want Western culture.
I remember when the reunification started I firmly believed that the East would quickly get up to speed once the Western system was applied there. It should be easy and the Easterners would be happy. Turns out that progress was slow despite enormous investments and the Easterners didn't really appreciate that the West completely ignored things that Easterners actually liked (their "achievements" = "Errungenschaften" was a big word).
When you consider how difficult the process was/is despite East and West Germany being very close culturally it becomes clear that things like "fixing" and "democratizing" countries like Afghanistan and Iraq are pretty hopeless endeavors. I don't think as Westerner you can even remotely understand the culture and the fact that maybe the people there don't want Western culture.
I see the effects of redlining in the US carry on for decades after physical barriers like highways have been removed, so I absolutely believe it.
for example?
East Germans are a lot poorer, the East German economy is a lot lower productivity and investment, and politically the old DDR states lean a bit more right (ripe area for AfD recruitment).
Some West germans still look down on Ossies, even though Merkel was one herself. It's a lot like how northern states look down on southern states in the U.S.
Some West germans still look down on Ossies, even though Merkel was one herself. It's a lot like how northern states look down on southern states in the U.S.
Interestingly enough, the east is the most prolific voting area for both far right and the left. Both AfD and Die Linke had their best results in the eastern states.
Might be connected to the horseshoe theory, I'm thinking. Where voters don't have a specific connection to any one political mindset so they choose the party that is the most extreme in their mind and won't hesitate to switch to another more extreme party, even if they switch from far left to far right because they aren't affiliated with a specific political mindset.
On the way between Hamburg and Berlin, there's an area that looks like a deserted warzone. It's where all the young people came from that moved to big cities for the better job opportunities. The people that remain are elderly / unemployed, so naturally those villages will decay. The east had quite some areas that relied on local industry and/or farming for people's income. During the unification, most industry was auctioned off to westerners, so the east took a pretty big hit, both in terms of losing company tax revenue and in terms of losing high-skilled labor.
There are a lot of areas in the east that are abandoned and falling into decay.
This is the precise problem that rural America has with youth abandoning the rural areas.
The cure for this is immigration, but the people that remain in the rural areas are very right wing and very xenophobic.
The cure for this is immigration, but the people that remain in the rural areas are very right wing and very xenophobic.
That cure is worse than the disease. We don't need people living all over for no good reason.
Here's a good image detailing the wage differences between East-West. Similar charts can be found for GDP, quality of life, and other assorted economic measures. As well as many cultural differentiators like religion. The wall fell decades ago, but the impacts remain, therefore sometimes it makes sense to distinguish between the two.
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fvoxeu.org...
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fvoxeu.org...
You probably want to include the context for the graphic.
"Average Wage in Germany by County
Notes: Average daily wages obtained from a 50% random sample of establishments via the Establishment History Panel (BHP) of the Institute for Employment Research (IAB). Real wages are expressed in 2007 euros valued in Bonn, the former capital of West Germany, using county-specific prices. East–West border is drawn for clarification; there is no border today."
"Average Wage in Germany by County
Notes: Average daily wages obtained from a 50% random sample of establishments via the Establishment History Panel (BHP) of the Institute for Employment Research (IAB). Real wages are expressed in 2007 euros valued in Bonn, the former capital of West Germany, using county-specific prices. East–West border is drawn for clarification; there is no border today."
Ignoring Merkel and the former President Gauck, the percentage of Ossis in prestigious, affluent or influential positions is very subpar. Enterpreneurs, CEOs, well-known artists, professors, generals, judges ... are disproportionally Wessis, and immigrated Wessis dominate in those positions even in former GDR.
IIRC the discrepancy between population share and elite share for Ossis is even worse than for American blacks.
IIRC the discrepancy between population share and elite share for Ossis is even worse than for American blacks.
Look at a night time aerial photo of Berlin, you can still see where the wall was (via the color temp of the lights). Reintegration takes a while.
That special photo is really old by now. Today, you have to know where the wall was to know. Berlin has switched to LED-lighting for all new street lights.
Found this analysis of the wealth gap between east and west germans: https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/121292/1/837461987.p...
TL;DR: at the 50th percentile, net worth of west germans was ~40k in 2012 vs ~14k for east germans (in euros).
TL;DR: at the 50th percentile, net worth of west germans was ~40k in 2012 vs ~14k for east germans (in euros).
The American Civil War was over 150 years ago, and yet "the South" is still considered a distinct entity within the US.
Bullshit.
Who in their right mind considers the US separated like that?
Can't speak to folks from New England, but it's very much a thing in the Southeast.
In the sense that someone from a state over would be viewed very differently than someone from up north.
Caveat: This is almost imperceptible in major urban centers, and far more of a thing in rural areas.
In the sense that someone from a state over would be viewed very differently than someone from up north.
Caveat: This is almost imperceptible in major urban centers, and far more of a thing in rural areas.
The same reason you might specify “American South” if it is a crew from Alabama.
I assumed they were talking about an event pre-1989.
> I assumed they were talking about an event pre-1989.
Same at first, but then having spent time in the South years ago I also realized the prejudice from the North on the South for economic reasons.
The South is typically seen as the most affluent of all of Germany and depending on the Stat the most influenced by politics: as in the case with Baden-Wuttenburg and the Green Party. Hell, people from the Schwabish part (Stutgart) are used looked down on by the rest of Baden-Wuttenburg for being typically very stingy and aloof (even by German standards) and seen as not worth building ties with. I had a bad experience with them, after being warmly welcomed in Germany, but I took that more a random situation rather than anything worth looking deeper into.
It's frankly a very odd situation and makes you wonder why they're even united at all, I spent time in the North near Cologne this summer and to be honest the amount of Turkish people was a very welcomed sight especially how well integrated they were in Society.
I wish I could have remained with that feeling because stuff like this makes me realize how deeply scarred the German psyche is in regards to this topic.
Same at first, but then having spent time in the South years ago I also realized the prejudice from the North on the South for economic reasons.
The South is typically seen as the most affluent of all of Germany and depending on the Stat the most influenced by politics: as in the case with Baden-Wuttenburg and the Green Party. Hell, people from the Schwabish part (Stutgart) are used looked down on by the rest of Baden-Wuttenburg for being typically very stingy and aloof (even by German standards) and seen as not worth building ties with. I had a bad experience with them, after being warmly welcomed in Germany, but I took that more a random situation rather than anything worth looking deeper into.
It's frankly a very odd situation and makes you wonder why they're even united at all, I spent time in the North near Cologne this summer and to be honest the amount of Turkish people was a very welcomed sight especially how well integrated they were in Society.
I wish I could have remained with that feeling because stuff like this makes me realize how deeply scarred the German psyche is in regards to this topic.
How much did that voyage cost?
I'm not OP, but I've looked it up before, and it's actually quite expensive. Ballpark of around $75/night (USD). And, of course, it's slow, so you'll be using a substantial portion of your banked vacation time to do it (if that's a concern for you).
I took a container cruise in 2019 (with this guy [0], do recommend although it's probably not possible in a post-COVID world), and prices for all trans-Atlantic routes I could find were between 150-250 EUR/night. My ship arrived at the starting port 3 days late and at the destination port 1 day late, but the rate was not adjusted. The sole other passenger with me had his destination port canceled, but the company dropped him at a different port and purchased him fare the remaining way on a bus.
[0] http://m.freightertravel.co.nz/home
[0] http://m.freightertravel.co.nz/home
> quite expensive. Ballpark of around $75/night (USD)
For room and board? That's pretty economical.
For room and board? That's pretty economical.
Really interesting story! Why did you have to pay in order to work, it was a big discount?
Just want to point out that yes, companies dismiss complaints, but they don't dismiss it when workers stop working together. Then they get panicked.
Just want to point out that yes, companies dismiss complaints, but they don't dismiss it when workers stop working together. Then they get panicked.
I think OP paid to travel as a passenger. They explicitly didn't get the option to work on the ship for a discount on their passage. Apparently you can just pay to travel on these container ship lines, although it can take more than 2 weeks to cross the ocean and accommodations vary.
You need to read more carefully. OP wrote they paid to be on the ship and did not have to work.
AFAIK you would need papers to be allowed to work.
I think ships are a bit like the wild west... one of the last “anything goes” jurisdictions. The cruise industry especially goes to great lengths to avoid regulatory oversight at all costs.
You’re thinking is incorrect. There are a LOT of governing regulations and oversight, not to mention unions and corporate policies.
An oil tanker is a floating bomb. And another Exon Valdez would cost hundreds of millions.
From the government of the Pacific Ocean..?
Maersk's insurer, or more likely, legal team wouldn't permit something like this because of the liability they'd carry for enabling it. It wouldn't get past that point to a discussion of region-specific employment restrictions, not that they matter here per your comment.
All they (and every other bigco) care about is doing whatever token "due diligence" they need to do. If your papers aren't legit they don't care as long as they don't know.
I'd assume from the government of the country which the vessel is flagged under. For example needing a Merchant Mariner's Credential if a US ship.
You can't toss out a cool anecdote like that and not talk more about how to get on a ship!
[deleted]
'East Germans'? This was in the 80's then?
The ocean is a different place in so many ways.
My cousin is a Merchant Marine Engineer. Some big ships can't leave port without one, yet they are in short supply. So he's paid a lot per voyage. Two or three multi-week voyages and he'd done working for the year.
Early on in his career, an officer would request his passport. To make things go faster in port, all the passports could be presented at once for quicker clearing of customs etc.
Of course he learned immediately, this meant he could not leave the ship in foreign port. And the officer sandbagged when he requested his passport back. The result was, he was essentially held captive for several months aboard ship, several times longer than he was contracted for. And the ship could count on having an Engineer for every leg of the journey.
Now he knows better, keeps his passport on his person at all times.
My cousin is a Merchant Marine Engineer. Some big ships can't leave port without one, yet they are in short supply. So he's paid a lot per voyage. Two or three multi-week voyages and he'd done working for the year.
Early on in his career, an officer would request his passport. To make things go faster in port, all the passports could be presented at once for quicker clearing of customs etc.
Of course he learned immediately, this meant he could not leave the ship in foreign port. And the officer sandbagged when he requested his passport back. The result was, he was essentially held captive for several months aboard ship, several times longer than he was contracted for. And the ship could count on having an Engineer for every leg of the journey.
Now he knows better, keeps his passport on his person at all times.
That's surprising that is still happening nowadays.
My brother is a Merchant Mariner. I think he is officer first class now but he worked his way up from AB.
He just left out, he is probably going to be on the ship 8 months, maybe more depending. It used to be 3 months on 3 off.
The contract he had gotten back from was supposed to be that but because of the world right now ended up being 6 months. I think he was only back for 3 before they called him back.
He was the health and safety officer on his last outing, said that people were going crazy. Kept imagining they were getting Covid when they had been to sea after a month, said that there was a suicide on another vessel by someone who thought he was sick.(either was worried everyone was going to hate him for spreading the disease or afraid he would spread it to others.)
Hope your cousin is staying safe out there. Don't know your nationality but the hopefully he can warn others quietly about that, the US is supposed to have a guild/union but I hear they aren't always the best.
My brother is a Merchant Mariner. I think he is officer first class now but he worked his way up from AB.
He just left out, he is probably going to be on the ship 8 months, maybe more depending. It used to be 3 months on 3 off.
The contract he had gotten back from was supposed to be that but because of the world right now ended up being 6 months. I think he was only back for 3 before they called him back.
He was the health and safety officer on his last outing, said that people were going crazy. Kept imagining they were getting Covid when they had been to sea after a month, said that there was a suicide on another vessel by someone who thought he was sick.(either was worried everyone was going to hate him for spreading the disease or afraid he would spread it to others.)
Hope your cousin is staying safe out there. Don't know your nationality but the hopefully he can warn others quietly about that, the US is supposed to have a guild/union but I hear they aren't always the best.
Huh?
I assume he is a westener, so just tell customs your held against your will and the guy with passports goes to jail.
I assume he is a westener, so just tell customs your held against your will and the guy with passports goes to jail.
And you never work in your professional industry ever again... Black listing is very real in almost any situation where technically you can report someone for something heinous.
I would rather look for a different job than being held hostage for months, just me though.
OK, so at your next software gig you wouldn't report them for basically holding you hostage till a release is finished?
Because how would your next employer react to this?
Because how would your next employer react to this?
Professional slavery, you meant?
You take my assertion as agreement or belief that this is ok. It's not, but if you're working to support family or pay off debts, the decision quickly loses its philosophical or moral character and only has a practical one: do I continue to make money or do I risk my livelihood and potential earning?
I was just reading about Cuba the other day. It seems that only the captain can leave the ship there until all passengers are cleared. I presume he needs to take their passports with him. That creates a bit of a catch-22 here.
Seems like you should order a second passport once you have the first. Give the Capt the first one that is now invalid, but since he can't scan it, how will he know?
In the UK you can actually legitimately get two passports if you can show you need it for work (I think it's typically for travelling to countries who don't like each other and won't let you in if you have stamps from the other one). I wonder if this would count.
Or if you have dual nationality, You could use your other one.
Really though, most embassies will issue travel documentation if your passport is lost without too much difficulty ( it is effectively lost if you cannot get access to it).
If that sailor really wanted to leave, he can get another one from his embassy. This is more power dynamic between employee/ employer , I have seen similar stunts pulled by agents who get foreign workers in middle east.
Really though, most embassies will issue travel documentation if your passport is lost without too much difficulty ( it is effectively lost if you cannot get access to it).
If that sailor really wanted to leave, he can get another one from his embassy. This is more power dynamic between employee/ employer , I have seen similar stunts pulled by agents who get foreign workers in middle east.
I wonder how customs would react if you go to them and ask to conference with your national embassy.
I still don’t understand why passports are required in official paper. It’s just a bar code that guy scans to retrieve the official record with photo ID on their server. Anything printed on paper passport is worthless and untrustworthy.
> It’s just a bar code that guy scans to retrieve the official record with photo ID on their server.
This would require a fully connected graph between all Departments of State around the world (i.e., the holders of their respective countries' passport DBs), and that is definitely not the case. It will also never be the case, since there are various geopolitical advantages to having a secret passport database (like being able to mint identities for spies, or deny the existence of a person).
The bar code you're referring to is just a machine-readable version of the information printed on the paper. It doesn't carry any proof of authenticity.
This would require a fully connected graph between all Departments of State around the world (i.e., the holders of their respective countries' passport DBs), and that is definitely not the case. It will also never be the case, since there are various geopolitical advantages to having a secret passport database (like being able to mint identities for spies, or deny the existence of a person).
The bar code you're referring to is just a machine-readable version of the information printed on the paper. It doesn't carry any proof of authenticity.
Just FYI they do contain machine readable digital signatures from the passport issuer these days.
Is that in the RFID tag? I know US passports have those embedded, but I wasn't sure about other nationalities.
I'd be curious to learn more about how they verify those signatures as well; I can imagine it being nontrivial/de facto limited to a collection of trusted partner nations.
I'd be curious to learn more about how they verify those signatures as well; I can imagine it being nontrivial/de facto limited to a collection of trusted partner nations.
They definitely do have it in the RFID tag. Depending on your nationality, some have it printed in a larger QR-code like thing, I think. There’s an international standard, but I wouldn’t know where to find it.
It's specified by IATA. It's an NFC tag, not RFID, and the data is a JPEG2000 image with its hash embedded inside an X.509 certificate. There's no public root store: the national root certs are passed around between governments using diplomatic bags.
The standards are all public and anyone can write an app to verify e-Passports. There are Android apps on the Play Store that can do it, although they don't necessarily have complete collections of national certs.
The standards are all public and anyone can write an app to verify e-Passports. There are Android apps on the Play Store that can do it, although they don't necessarily have complete collections of national certs.
FWIW, the ICAO standard[1] mentions ISO 14443 for communication, which (seems) to only cover RFID and not NFC.
[1]: https://www.icao.int/publications/Documents/9303_p9_cons_en....
[1]: https://www.icao.int/publications/Documents/9303_p9_cons_en....
NFC is a superset of RFID I think. At least, you can read the tags with the NFC tag functionality of a smartphone.
Edit: oops yes you're right I meant ICAO, IATA is a different airline related organization.
Edit: oops yes you're right I meant ICAO, IATA is a different airline related organization.
If only that was how it worked. Even within the country of origin they don't always have access to such a system easily, let alone between countries.
A nosy customs official can flip through the other stamps in the passport to see if you've been some place that makes you suspect. Also, certain countries will tag your passport which marks you for automatic extra inspections without even looking at your photo/name info. This happened to me specifically in Australia.
That's actually one of the specific exceptions that you can use in the U.S. to get a second passport issued, in case you need to travel to countries which are in conflict with one another.
If interested in reading more on this, and other abuses on the sea:
The Outlaw Ocean https://www.amazon.com/Outlaw-Ocean-Journeys-Untamed-Frontie...
This is based on a series of articles the author wrote for the New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/07/24/world/the-out...
The Outlaw Ocean https://www.amazon.com/Outlaw-Ocean-Journeys-Untamed-Frontie...
This is based on a series of articles the author wrote for the New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/07/24/world/the-out...
I'll add that there was a 99% Invisible episode on this topic: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/abandoned-ships/
This was a shocking and eye opening series for me. Complete lawlessness, murder and mayhem; which is rampant in certain areas of the world.
I had been under the impression that international waters were much more regulated. Man oh man, was I wrong.
I had been under the impression that international waters were much more regulated. Man oh man, was I wrong.
Every time I've heard the phrase "international waters", it is specifically in reference to the lack of regulation.
So much of the world is connected at low latency and high availability now, it's easy to not notice when you transition to somewhere that's not the case
Large national parks, western states, or open ocean: there are still a few places you can be hours from the nearest person, without cell service.
Large national parks, western states, or open ocean: there are still a few places you can be hours from the nearest person, without cell service.
Ports are very regulated. International waters not so much.
Which is why you have to very careful if you gamble on a cruise ship. They answer to no gaming commission, nobody inspects their gaming machines and you are basically trusting the company to run fair games.
I have enjoyed playing blackjack in Las Vegas. I once went on a cruise ship out of Port Canaveral. I caught the dealer cheating twice by miscounting. I haven't played on a cruise ship since then.
True, though in general they try to be a bit honest. They still need to maintain reputation and repeat business is a big part of their clients.
That doesn't mean the slots will be more than 80% payout, but there will be a payout to someone.
That doesn't mean the slots will be more than 80% payout, but there will be a payout to someone.
There's a slightly older book on the same topic
The Outlaw Sea: https://www.amazon.com/Outlaw-Sea-World-Freedom-Chaos/dp/086...
It's a pretty good look into the world of international sea travel as well. It even gets into the ship-breaking industry as well.
The Outlaw Sea: https://www.amazon.com/Outlaw-Sea-World-Freedom-Chaos/dp/086...
It's a pretty good look into the world of international sea travel as well. It even gets into the ship-breaking industry as well.
Seconded. I listened to the audio book. Eye opening to say the least.
Tie all the abandoned ships together and turn them into a floating city where the only law is the law of the sea. I mean, we're aiming for full on dystopia aren't we?
There actually was such a situation during the wars near Suez Canal - the Great Bitter Lakes Association or the Yellow fleet [1][2]
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Fleet
2. https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/great-bitter-lake-ass...
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Fleet
2. https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/great-bitter-lake-ass...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26657332
Most recent discussion of the Great Bitter Lake Association (googling seems to indicate it'd been posted on HN before - but the Ever Given's grounding made it relevant again)
Most recent discussion of the Great Bitter Lake Association (googling seems to indicate it'd been posted on HN before - but the Ever Given's grounding made it relevant again)
You might be interested in the story of Radio Caroline, back in the '60s the BBC had a state monopoly on British radio and it was very stuffy and conservative. To get around this people used to set up AM transmitters and studios on ships just outside of UK territorial waters and transmitted from beyond the jurisdiction of the government. There were quite a few of these but Radio Caroline was the first and longest-lived - they lasted up to 1990 when the British government gave itself the power to raid radio ships in international waters (!) but it eventually returned with a license and is still around today.
While it wasn't exactly a dystopian floating city (quite the opposite, it was dedicated people who wanted to be there) it's still really interesting from lots of points of view I think.
While it wasn't exactly a dystopian floating city (quite the opposite, it was dedicated people who wanted to be there) it's still really interesting from lots of points of view I think.
I learned of Radio Caroline from the lyrics of Thomas Dolby - Radio Silence:
Carve her legend on the bow, Caroline 452
Carve her legend on the bow, Caroline 452
[deleted]
Me too! One of my top-five records of all time. I was able to grab a pressing that had the original guitar version of "Radio Silence" - although I can appreciate the version that eventually ended up on later pressings I enjoy the guitar one so much more. I also saw him perform live in Baltimore pre-pandemic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ntZNpE3am8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ntZNpE3am8
Reminds me of Radio Ceylon Hindi. All India Radio refused to play music that people actually wanted to listen to and it had a monopoly. Radio Ceylon filled the need and made millions from advertisements.
Kowloon Hulled City?
Milton Friedman's grandson is on it:
"Friedman and Gramlich noted that according to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, a country's Exclusive Economic Zone extends 200 nautical miles (370 km) from shore. Beyond that boundary lie the high seas, which are not subject to the laws of any sovereign state other than the flag under which a ship sails. They proposed that a seastead could take advantage of the absence of laws and regulations outside the sovereignty of nations to experiment with new governance systems, and allow the citizens of existing governments to exit more easily"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasteading
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seasteading_Institute
"The project picked up mainstream exposure after PayPal cofounder Peter Thiel donated $500,000 in initial seed capital[4] (followed by subsequent contributions). He also spoke out on behalf of its viability in his essay "The Education of a Libertarian""
Patri Friedman is described as a former Google employee, a transhumanist and rationalist, and a very good poker player.
"Since attending the Burning Man festival in 2000, Friedman imagined creating a water festival called Ephemerisle as a Seasteading experiment and Temporary Autonomous Zone. Through The Seasteading Institute, Friedman was able to start the Ephemerisle festival in 2009, aided by TSI's James Hogan as event organizer and Chicken John Rinaldi as chief builder."
It doesn't really interest me, but I guess it does make a lot more sense than Mars colonies?
"Friedman and Gramlich noted that according to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, a country's Exclusive Economic Zone extends 200 nautical miles (370 km) from shore. Beyond that boundary lie the high seas, which are not subject to the laws of any sovereign state other than the flag under which a ship sails. They proposed that a seastead could take advantage of the absence of laws and regulations outside the sovereignty of nations to experiment with new governance systems, and allow the citizens of existing governments to exit more easily"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasteading
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seasteading_Institute
"The project picked up mainstream exposure after PayPal cofounder Peter Thiel donated $500,000 in initial seed capital[4] (followed by subsequent contributions). He also spoke out on behalf of its viability in his essay "The Education of a Libertarian""
Patri Friedman is described as a former Google employee, a transhumanist and rationalist, and a very good poker player.
"Since attending the Burning Man festival in 2000, Friedman imagined creating a water festival called Ephemerisle as a Seasteading experiment and Temporary Autonomous Zone. Through The Seasteading Institute, Friedman was able to start the Ephemerisle festival in 2009, aided by TSI's James Hogan as event organizer and Chicken John Rinaldi as chief builder."
It doesn't really interest me, but I guess it does make a lot more sense than Mars colonies?
Here is an interesting application for ships hanging around in international waters:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_on_Waves
"Women on Waves (WoW) is a Dutch pro-choice nongovernmental organization (NGO) created in 1999 by Dutch physician Rebecca Gomperts, in order to bring reproductive health services, particularly non-surgical abortion services and education, to women in countries with restrictive abortion laws.[1] Other services offered by WoW include contraception, individual reproductive counseling, workshops, and education about unwanted pregnancy."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_on_Waves
"Women on Waves (WoW) is a Dutch pro-choice nongovernmental organization (NGO) created in 1999 by Dutch physician Rebecca Gomperts, in order to bring reproductive health services, particularly non-surgical abortion services and education, to women in countries with restrictive abortion laws.[1] Other services offered by WoW include contraception, individual reproductive counseling, workshops, and education about unwanted pregnancy."
Suisei no Gargantia. They actually manage to make it work relatively peacefully.
Don't watch the dance episode.
Don't watch the dance episode.
Can we call this floating city Waterworld?
This is upsetting. What can I, an ordinary civilian not involved with the shipping industry, do to help these people?
You could contact your lawmakers and ask for a crew bond escrow requirement for ships, insolvent companies forfeit the money and it pays to send the crew home with a year's pay.
I don't think any of the suggestions made thus far will do anything to help out.
I think that one of the only methods that has a chance is to go to the UN and work out a treaty on human rights for maritime workers with the stipulation that once a supermajority of nations ratify/adopt it, ships flying the flag of a nation that hasn't ratified it are not allowed in the ports of the nations that have.
I think that one of the only methods that has a chance is to go to the UN and work out a treaty on human rights for maritime workers with the stipulation that once a supermajority of nations ratify/adopt it, ships flying the flag of a nation that hasn't ratified it are not allowed in the ports of the nations that have.
For a start, buy goods and services from ultra-local sources, a boycott of shipped goods if you will. Know that your sources get their supplies shipped to them, but just go down the local-sourcing chain as far as you deem reasonable.
Does that help them? It makes the trade that at sports the abuses less financially viable, but that might make the abuses worse. If the trade stops they lose their jobs and money stops flowing from wealthier regions to poorer regions.
Fair trade is better than no trade (other things being equal) if you want to support foreign workers.
Just global trade systems are a hard problem, as I see it, and really can't be organised from the consumer end (ie by simply choosing where/if to buy goods).
Fair trade is better than no trade (other things being equal) if you want to support foreign workers.
Just global trade systems are a hard problem, as I see it, and really can't be organised from the consumer end (ie by simply choosing where/if to buy goods).
>"boycott of shipped goods"
And all those poor sailors suddenly retire and live happily ever after, NOT. Buying local is not a solution to sailors and not a solution to buyers either as so many things are simply not being made locally.
What is needed is a control. If company does things like this then countries can start issuing huge fines should any ship of said company visit the their ports. That'll teach them proper.
And all those poor sailors suddenly retire and live happily ever after, NOT. Buying local is not a solution to sailors and not a solution to buyers either as so many things are simply not being made locally.
What is needed is a control. If company does things like this then countries can start issuing huge fines should any ship of said company visit the their ports. That'll teach them proper.
Local producers are still very likely to be making use of goods shipped from overseas. You can't boycott your way out of the global economy.
Do you know of any good ways to find these ultra-local sources of goods efficiently?
For food, farmer's markets usually work well; if you can't find one locally whose hours and sellers sync up with your food needs, look at all your local grocers - there should be at least one who gets a lot of local goods, and puts signs on the shelves proclaiming this.
Note that farmers markets don't guarantee that the produce is actually local. Realistically you'd need to camp out early enough to catch them shipping it on site to figure out where it's actually from.
Usually its obvious that the heirloom produce they are selling would be impossible to ship long distances. an heirloom tomato is amazingly fragile compared to a roma bred for shipping.
Or you can talk to them, gauge their trustworthiness, and ask around about their reputation.
I don't think you'll find tomatoes and salad in these ships.
Most of the poorly run ships will not go to first world harbors with safety controls etc.
Thanks. Any ideas about sourcing manufactured goods locally?
Go to the "bad side of the tracks" and walk in. All towns have a bunch of generic machine shops that can manufacture. Look for welders, machinists, sheet metal and that type of thing in the name. Then walk into the office.
Note that few of them will do the design/engineering work for you. But if you have a "blueprint" they will build it. Be prepared to pay - they are all making good wages for your city not third world step above slave wages.
Note that few of them will do the design/engineering work for you. But if you have a "blueprint" they will build it. Be prepared to pay - they are all making good wages for your city not third world step above slave wages.
I was thinking more finished goods made locally, rather than custom-made. I’m guessing the coverage will be pretty meager, though. But good advice for the next time I want something a bit more unique, thanks!
It’ll never be possible. Locally produced food/gadgets were made using raw materials and equipment that were likely imported.
The raw material was extracted and the equipment itself was produced by yet another layer of equipment. And so on, until you get to the iron ore and copper and so on. No way will all of that be local.
The raw material was extracted and the equipment itself was produced by yet another layer of equipment. And so on, until you get to the iron ore and copper and so on. No way will all of that be local.
Problem: failing shipping companies are leaving their crews stuck on vessels abandoned in ports.
Solution: make more of these companies fail?
Solution: make more of these companies fail?
Buy less stuff, basically.
Think hard before buying something "new". You may not need it, or you may be able to find alternatives, such as hand-me-downs, secondhand, etc.
Think hard before buying something "new". You may not need it, or you may be able to find alternatives, such as hand-me-downs, secondhand, etc.
How does that help the people in the shipping industry? Let's say you did reduce shipping and therefore there were fewer shipping jobs, the people currently doing this work would lose these jobs and have to find other work. Something which would be even less attractive than shipping. How's that help them?
It doesn't help them either way, whether you buy stuff or not.
However, it does help you not be comlicit to their treatment.
However, it does help you not be comlicit to their treatment.
But clearly for many of them this bad choice is their best option (unfortunately). So the goal isn't to improve their lives but to assuage our guilt?
Companies that use these services could exert pressure for better conditions, just like some have done with other companies in their supply chain.
Companies that use these services could exert pressure for better conditions, just like some have done with other companies in their supply chain.
I think there is a difference between guilt and complicity, though they are related.
I have somewhat limited agency in this world, limited to the little bit of money I spend, the movement of my arms and legs, the words I speak, the things I look at, and my thoughts and intentions.
I have somewhat limited agency in this world, limited to the little bit of money I spend, the movement of my arms and legs, the words I speak, the things I look at, and my thoughts and intentions.
Except the companies are doing this because they are already strapped for cash.
Willingly trying to avoid global shipping would actually make you more complicit.
Willingly trying to avoid global shipping would actually make you more complicit.
Not really, in a free market consumers directing their consumption away from a sector does not make them complicit in the abuses or bankruptcy of that sector.
They don't have direct relationship to that sector anymore, after all.
They don't have direct relationship to that sector anymore, after all.
You can't "buy less stuff" when the things we're talking about are necessities, often times food and critical supplies like fuel. Container ships don't just ship you game consoles and televisions.
And even if you managed to reduce all private consumption to zero, commercial consumption probably makes up an order of magnitudes more than private does. It doesn't matter what YOU do, you can't change the scales that these ships operate.
The only thing that will fix this is government intervention and fines that make it less cost effective to abandon the ship than to deal with the consequences.
And even if you managed to reduce all private consumption to zero, commercial consumption probably makes up an order of magnitudes more than private does. It doesn't matter what YOU do, you can't change the scales that these ships operate.
The only thing that will fix this is government intervention and fines that make it less cost effective to abandon the ship than to deal with the consequences.
You can't "buy less stuff" when the things we're talking about are necessities, often times food and critical supplies like fuel.
This isn't really an excuse in e.g. USA, which produces surpluses in both of these commodities.
This isn't really an excuse in e.g. USA, which produces surpluses in both of these commodities.
Those surpluses are mostly exported, and besides that you're missing the forest for the trees. Individual action, even if completely efficient and pervasive, would not be enough to fix this problem.
That is a related but distinct point. Solidarity and collective action are required, but when we accomplish those we'll be able to just eat and burn what is produced domestically.
I would hazard an eyeball guess that the overwhelming majority of container ships headed for the U.S. are carrying non-essentials.
I disagree with your statement that "it doesn't matter what you do". It is all that matters, because what everyone else does is beyond my control, and only what I do is under my control.
Individual action and its spread through word-of-mouth is pretty much the only way anything changes in this world.
I disagree with your statement that "it doesn't matter what you do". It is all that matters, because what everyone else does is beyond my control, and only what I do is under my control.
Individual action and its spread through word-of-mouth is pretty much the only way anything changes in this world.
It doesn't matter what you do, because it's not a problem you, the consumer, created.
It's a set of misaligned incentives that create a hole where ships like these fit. No amount of your individual do-gooding will fix that incentive misalignment.
It's a set of misaligned incentives that create a hole where ships like these fit. No amount of your individual do-gooding will fix that incentive misalignment.
But you can "buy less stuff" in general. And that will reduce your impact.
Sure, but that has literally no impact on the incentives that created this problem in the first place. It's not related to volume or frequency, and if anything less frequent and smaller shipments might exacerbate this issue in the current system. Supply chains are counter-intuitive like that sometimes.
Local BuyNothing groups are great for this.
Just looked into Buy Nothing. What's the advantage of using this platform vs. second-hand/thrift shops?
I think it's an alternative to second-hand and thrift shops, and the biggest advantage is that it is available even in areas without thrift shops.
The second advantage is that you don't have to pay, so it is more likely that items will find a good home instead of being discarded.
The third advantage is non-participation in the money system, if you're into that sort of thing, and also the elimination of overhead for store and inventory upkeep.
One downside, of course, is that most people aren't willing to keep their "stock" around for too long, so there's limited inventory at any given time that you can browse.
The second advantage is that you don't have to pay, so it is more likely that items will find a good home instead of being discarded.
The third advantage is non-participation in the money system, if you're into that sort of thing, and also the elimination of overhead for store and inventory upkeep.
One downside, of course, is that most people aren't willing to keep their "stock" around for too long, so there's limited inventory at any given time that you can browse.
It’s typically just a Facebook group of your neighbors, so “platform” might be a bit strong for what it is. Besides everything being free, I’ve found it helps build a bit of a sense of community for those who participate.
This is what their website [1] says:
> The most direct way to participate in this amazing experiment with us is to join the BuyNothing App.
[1] https://buynothingproject.org/find-a-group/
> The most direct way to participate in this amazing experiment with us is to join the BuyNothing App.
[1] https://buynothingproject.org/find-a-group/
Ah gotcha, I heard about that, the founders sort of stepped back from the FB groups version and started trying to push a standalone app version. I'm guessing the FB groups version is still more popular/useful.
Oh, also, there're a lot of plants and things that get exchanged, another difference from second hand shops.
Oh, also, there're a lot of plants and things that get exchanged, another difference from second hand shops.
wouldn't that create a recession or depression?
Is an economic recession or depression necessarily bad, if everyone's basic needs are still accounted for?
If the economy is in a state of overproduction and extreme waste while the effects are the burn-up of our own habitat, shouldn't it tune down a bit anyway?
If the economy is in a state of overproduction and extreme waste while the effects are the burn-up of our own habitat, shouldn't it tune down a bit anyway?
We could go for ecological and climate collapse instead.
I hope there is a middle way.
I hope there is a middle way.
Ask that your federal representative legislate against this sort of behaviour, and to give teeth to enforcement agencies.
Unscrupulous actors get away with this because there are few rules against it, and enforcement is non-existent. If a shipping company is sanctioned from entry into American ports based on misbehavior on the other side of the world, they'd have an incentive to clean up their act... Or at least, to subcontract everything to shell corporations.
Unscrupulous actors get away with this because there are few rules against it, and enforcement is non-existent. If a shipping company is sanctioned from entry into American ports based on misbehavior on the other side of the world, they'd have an incentive to clean up their act... Or at least, to subcontract everything to shell corporations.
Form a group of a few like minded people and pressure your representatives to do something.
I'm sorry but is this a template response? This kind of situation is a bureaucratic mess spanning an awful lot of jurisdictions. What "your representative" can possibly do to help abandoned crewmen on a ship in a forgotten port in whatever place in the world when the ships operator is a chain of shell companies to the point that's virtually impossible to pinpoint a single entity to blame. It has to be a better way.
Sure, it's not an easy way. But basically I can think of four things to do:
1. Complain on the internet. This is easy but utterly ineffectual.
2. Alter your buying behavior. Unless you are the purchasing director for a multinational conglomerate, also utterly ineffectual.
3. Do something stupid like trying to blow up a containership. Also ineffectual, will land you in jail and will almost certainly kill some innocent people.
4. Contact your local representatives and get them to do soemthing about it. This will be easier if you are part of a larger group. Then your group and your representative(s) can contact someone higher up and so on.
Yes this particular problem and many others relating to ship operations thrives because there is little direct control and everyone is from 20 different jurisdictions, but perhaps some of those jurisdictions can team up and tax those that don't follow their rules or whatever. I am not an expert in this but some people are and the most I can do is let my representatives know that I care about this stuff. Maybe I actually should go and do that.
1. Complain on the internet. This is easy but utterly ineffectual.
2. Alter your buying behavior. Unless you are the purchasing director for a multinational conglomerate, also utterly ineffectual.
3. Do something stupid like trying to blow up a containership. Also ineffectual, will land you in jail and will almost certainly kill some innocent people.
4. Contact your local representatives and get them to do soemthing about it. This will be easier if you are part of a larger group. Then your group and your representative(s) can contact someone higher up and so on.
Yes this particular problem and many others relating to ship operations thrives because there is little direct control and everyone is from 20 different jurisdictions, but perhaps some of those jurisdictions can team up and tax those that don't follow their rules or whatever. I am not an expert in this but some people are and the most I can do is let my representatives know that I care about this stuff. Maybe I actually should go and do that.
there's also the news media.
(although I have noticed something unfortunate: I have a LOT of 5-star documentaries to watch, but rarely do, while I watch even 2-star scifi stuff almost immediately)
(although I have noticed something unfortunate: I have a LOT of 5-star documentaries to watch, but rarely do, while I watch even 2-star scifi stuff almost immediately)
I have noticed that a lot of the documentaries going up on streaming platforms these days are uncritically rehashing the past year's news in some kind of overt propaganda repetition.
Which also does nothing unless combined with method 4.
Pressure politicians to implement covid rule exemptions/changes, budget hikes, and personnel bonuses to keep docks open. They are too often closed to incoming ships due to unreasonable requirements such as vaccine passports for all sailors and quarantines whenever there are mild/asymptomatic breakthrough infections among vaccinated dock staff.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-03-31/for-st...
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-03-31/for-st...
When I worked with a container shipping company there was a mechanic trapped on a ship for months past his shore date but there was no one to cover him. He looked at me, the computer guy from the office, carrying a large wrench, like he wanted to kill me just to get off the ship.
Something interesting to me is that this article comes a t a time when shipping is reaching record highs. We used to pay around 4k for a container from Asia to the US, now the price is 25k.
It looks like there a a large amount of volatility in the shipping system as this is not the first time we have seen price jumps and crashes. I remember hearing about shipping congestion/issues in SEA a couple years ago as well as periodic stories about congestion/issues at Longbeach.
With global trade ever on the rise, we should expect to see it remain profitable, unless there are too many companies coming in and trying to undercut each other.
It looks like there a a large amount of volatility in the shipping system as this is not the first time we have seen price jumps and crashes. I remember hearing about shipping congestion/issues in SEA a couple years ago as well as periodic stories about congestion/issues at Longbeach.
With global trade ever on the rise, we should expect to see it remain profitable, unless there are too many companies coming in and trying to undercut each other.
I wonder what effect Ever Given had on all of this
We were having issues before the Ever Given but that did not help.
Our orders come from Asia to Eastern Sea board.
Our orders come from Asia to Eastern Sea board.
Wow this seems like an easily solvable problem and one reason why we have the UN. I guess they'd rather be bickering in committees than helping individuals trapped on these boats.
Companies need be insured for ABC if not, illegal to go anywhere near a port in a rich country.
How about the crew sells the ship for scrap. Had they left after their pay stopped the ship would be abandoned. Not sure how salvage works, but isnt there an element of "finders keepers"? If you dont work for the company as evidenced by them not paying you for X months, aren't you the finder of a big floating pule of scrap?
I'm sure there's a flaw in my logic...
I'm sure there's a flaw in my logic...
There's really nothing wrong with your logic, but unfortunately it doesn't work that way. These ships are usually abandoned at port, which means what happens is subject to the laws of the country they're in. Most countries have laws about ships and shipping to prevent becoming responsible for abandoned ships, it's common for some crew member to be criminally liable for abandoning a ship at port. Then you take into account bankruptcy filings in the flag country with assets worldwide, it would be very hard for a person to claim a ship as salvage in territorial waters while litigation about assets is ongoing.
Ideally it would be as simple as you say, but when you're talking about potentially billions of dollars in machinery and cargo, owned by probably hundreds of different interests, the people on these ships get caught in the middle of the mess and nobody with a financial interest in the situation wants to help the poor saps take their money from them.
Ideally it would be as simple as you say, but when you're talking about potentially billions of dollars in machinery and cargo, owned by probably hundreds of different interests, the people on these ships get caught in the middle of the mess and nobody with a financial interest in the situation wants to help the poor saps take their money from them.
It looks like our demand/supply ecosystem was setup with negligible buffers and unprepared for any big disruptions. This is a chain reaction that might go on for quite some time. Meanwhile prices of goods is getting pretty crazy!
I don't think it is a given that a system with more buffers would have made more material available over the last 18 months. We might have been worse off.
at some point they will raise the Jolly Rodger.
>Without Pay, Food or a Way Home
the civilized version would be to go the local authorities and initiate abandoned property/lien proceedings against the ship and the cargo for some port fees/fines for some violations by the ship (which is easy to commit if you're in control of the ship) or do a bit of freight Uber - after all you have a ship :).
>Without Pay, Food or a Way Home
the civilized version would be to go the local authorities and initiate abandoned property/lien proceedings against the ship and the cargo for some port fees/fines for some violations by the ship (which is easy to commit if you're in control of the ship) or do a bit of freight Uber - after all you have a ship :).
Usually they are scared of retaliation in their home countries. If they weren't going to ultimately be returned to their port of origin I'm sure more would just abandon the ships at first sign of trouble.
It'd be better if they did, really, as then it would cause authorities in the port countries to pierce the veil and shake down the owners.
It'd be better if they did, really, as then it would cause authorities in the port countries to pierce the veil and shake down the owners.
Never heard that being an issue. As long as the crew is sticking together. Back in 199x my father worked on a fish trawling fleet which consisted of a former USSR ships "privatized" by a "New Russian" businessman. The fleet at various times - depending on success/failure of negotiations with whatever warlord would happen to control given territory on a given morning - was based at various places in Mozambique and Somali. The fleet owner having no laws over him and being otherwise very shrewd and unscrupulous and being perfectly able to reach say our family in Russia (though that would really be against his interests) had never even delayed payments to the crew as that would mean angering 20-30 able bodied men who are in control of one of his ships in a place with practically no laws (and with the crews of the other ships definitely not in support of the owner on that issue).
That is what I would expect considering the time period and nationality of your story. But, the material that exploded in that one port was there because a Russian businessman abandoned his crew. It is sad, shows there is some deterioration of social fabric in Russia. The good news is the legal system of their home country is functioning enough they were not punished for it.
If you have crew from the middle east it is possible they will be tried in a kangaroo court for some weird theft charges related to abandoning the ship.
If you have crew from the middle east it is possible they will be tried in a kangaroo court for some weird theft charges related to abandoning the ship.
These crew members are irrational: you gonna stay on a ship for years without pay while you wait for your year of back pay? Why?
They don't know in advance how long the wait will be, and time that has already passed is a sunk cost, so they are stuck waiting "another couple of months" over and over again. There is a survivorship bias in this story because we don't hear about the (presumably much more numerous) sailors in similar situations who got paid after a much shorter wait.
Because many/most of the people working on the ships are basically slaves.
Paywalled https://archive.is/TX6lA
And also https://12ft.io/
Failed for this article
You have to go to the site and paste in the url you want to see.
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles...
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles...
I don't understand why this content is allowed. Without a subscription it's literally just an ad for a subscription. And I'm not going to buy a subscription for the three articles I read every month.
Once they start blocking archive.is I'll probably care more
> I don't understand why this content is allowed.
Because a workaround is available.
> And I'm not going to buy a subscription for the three articles I read every month.
Then click the link in the comment you replied to and read it.
Because a workaround is available.
> And I'm not going to buy a subscription for the three articles I read every month.
Then click the link in the comment you replied to and read it.
It's a major national US newspaper -- many, many people have subscriptions.
Well, I live in Germany, and I'm not going to subscribe to a major national US newspaper just for the few articles that get linked here. If they had a micropayment alternative for single articles I would consider it however...
Which is all fair enough. I'm opposing pluc's point that this type of post should perhaps be disallowed:
> I don't understand why this content is allowed.
It's certainly an appropriate post for a US-centric forum.
> I don't understand why this content is allowed.
It's certainly an appropriate post for a US-centric forum.
We need to eliminate the limited liability company. Far too many abuses are perpetrated only because no one is ultimately liable, from cigarette companies selling products that kill to situations like this where ships and people are abandoned.
If these were sail ships, they'd have been commandeered a long time ago. Sadly, they're all dependent on expensive af fuel.
Sailing ships require large amounts of labor, which is even more expensive.
Yes, but then the labour can just take over the ship if they aren’t paid.
Yeah, that's not why they're not being used. More to do with the absolutely massive size that motor powered ships can have.
They need to scuttle their ships.
I agree...it would send a message to beach these ships in high-visibility areas
These sailors are essentially hostage for corporate debt. Do you expect the hostage takers to treat misbehavior lightly? Instead of being on a boat prison they would end up in regular prison.
Edit: wording
Edit: wording
"The prop shaft seals started leaking and running the bilge pumps 24/7 used up all the diesel. Prove me wrong."
Might be an alternative if you're off the coast of, say, Romania. I wouldn't recommend it off the coast of Somalia though...
Not related but I have to mention it:
There's a picture of a "garden" bucket in the article, with an obviously just bought fresh onion on top of the dirt. I guess to communicate its "garden"-ness.
I cant help but wonder, if its OK to stage small details like that to be more favorable to the narrative, ... where is the line drawn?
There's a picture of a "garden" bucket in the article, with an obviously just bought fresh onion on top of the dirt. I guess to communicate its "garden"-ness.
I cant help but wonder, if its OK to stage small details like that to be more favorable to the narrative, ... where is the line drawn?
The owner of the bucket could have taken that photo when it was new. Can imagine posting that on social media "just made my first garden bucket!", or having a series of photos from points in time to show the progress
That onion has clearly sprouted a lot, so perhaps it's a seed onion? It's not uncommon to buy small seed onions and plant them so they'll get bigger (although I personally don't see the point, and would grow small bunching onions instead). In this case it's probably just an old onion that sat in a bag too long and sprouted, so they decided to plant it.
no roots. its bought.
It's not a "just-bought" onion. What grocery store sells an onion with an eight inch sprout coming out of it? At least in the U.S. such an onion would be unsellable, which is why I think they found this one in a bag somewhere and decided to plant it.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Green-Onions-Bunch/51259361?athbd...
Its not a sprout; its fresh.
Its not a sprout; its fresh.
Are we looking at the same photos here? It's clearly not a green onion. It has a large round bulb on the bottom that's more than two inches wide. Green onions / scallions do not look like that. You can see that in the very image you just linked.
Sounds to me like people will have to overthrow their governments to "go back to normal" anytime soon. The lack of normalcy increases the power of those imposing lockdowns and restrictions dramatically, and they aren't going to let go of that. There's no precedent for any government ever willingly ceding significant power. Just watch "V for Vendetta" - it's the same thing, except in the movie it was called the "St. Mary's virus". Incredible foresight.
It's all outlined here, down to the election: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnyvFtfRCu8
I enjoyed the travel and had a good voyage, with many small things to say about it at another time. As I learn about "business" and the world, I understand more about labor abuses, even with "respectable" companies. And, your outrage does nothing, because people who mistreat others professionally are quite used to the complaining, including yours. I am not at all surprised at this article.