Please make a dumb car(techcrunch.com)
techcrunch.com
Please make a dumb car
https://techcrunch.com/2022/01/29/please-make-a-dumb-car/
670 comments
I'm a UX designer and I've taken delivery of an XC40 Recharge two months ago, and I've never felt dumber in my life.
Don't get me wrong, the car is absolutely wonderful, but the UX is so badly designed it makes me question myself.
For starters, I have absolutely no clue how to use the lights, fans and wipers. Just last Saturday, a design oversight (and idiocy from my part) caused me to reverse into another car parked behind me, I reversed to leave the parking spot, then instead of switching to D, I forgot it on R all while the rearview camera is showing red lines. For a car equipped with driving assists (collision avoidance and line assists), it shouldn't have let me reverse any more as it was seeing a clear obstacle behind me or at least make me double check by beeping the rearview camera, it only beeps for 5 seconds when it sees an obstacle then stops, same for the open door and seatbelts.
There is also the odometer, there are 3 different odometers in the car and all of them are showing different values, one with a TM next to it, another one with this symbol Ø and a third one in the "Driver performance" tab. So which one is the real distance and what's the difference? Only the norse gods know.
Also, the charge and fuel left gauges adapt to your driving by going up or down instead of showing you the real amount of fuel/charge left. And it already nearly left me stranded on the highway with 5km left of fuel.
This car is amazing but there are a lot of design oversights when it comes to UX.
Don't get me wrong, the car is absolutely wonderful, but the UX is so badly designed it makes me question myself.
For starters, I have absolutely no clue how to use the lights, fans and wipers. Just last Saturday, a design oversight (and idiocy from my part) caused me to reverse into another car parked behind me, I reversed to leave the parking spot, then instead of switching to D, I forgot it on R all while the rearview camera is showing red lines. For a car equipped with driving assists (collision avoidance and line assists), it shouldn't have let me reverse any more as it was seeing a clear obstacle behind me or at least make me double check by beeping the rearview camera, it only beeps for 5 seconds when it sees an obstacle then stops, same for the open door and seatbelts.
There is also the odometer, there are 3 different odometers in the car and all of them are showing different values, one with a TM next to it, another one with this symbol Ø and a third one in the "Driver performance" tab. So which one is the real distance and what's the difference? Only the norse gods know.
Also, the charge and fuel left gauges adapt to your driving by going up or down instead of showing you the real amount of fuel/charge left. And it already nearly left me stranded on the highway with 5km left of fuel.
This car is amazing but there are a lot of design oversights when it comes to UX.
I’m having a hard time understanding how “I forgot to change gears and then hit the gas” can be classed a UX problem. Sounds like PEBKAC.
"I’m having a hard time understanding how “I forgot to change gears and then hit the gas” can be classed a UX problem. Sounds like PEBKAC."
On the one hand, it is easy to point to this as user error and you're not wrong.
But older cars have a significant tactile difference in operating different systems in the car. Shifting a gear is very, very different physically than pushing the button for your hazards. Your body moves in very different and operates these controls very differently.
This distinction was made clear to me years ago when we bought a 2013 Mercedes wagon - the physical action to: shift to park, turn the car on, turn the radio on were all nearly identical - just a button press. In fact, the buttons themselves were almost identical.
So, although I never actually did this, there were a number of times when I got relatively overloaded, cognitively, and I pressed the power off on the radio in an attempt to shift to park. Or I pressed the park button a second time in an attempt to turn the car off.
I believe that different subsystems in the car - especially life safety / critical driving systems - should have vastly different controls that force different physical interactions.
On the one hand, it is easy to point to this as user error and you're not wrong.
But older cars have a significant tactile difference in operating different systems in the car. Shifting a gear is very, very different physically than pushing the button for your hazards. Your body moves in very different and operates these controls very differently.
This distinction was made clear to me years ago when we bought a 2013 Mercedes wagon - the physical action to: shift to park, turn the car on, turn the radio on were all nearly identical - just a button press. In fact, the buttons themselves were almost identical.
So, although I never actually did this, there were a number of times when I got relatively overloaded, cognitively, and I pressed the power off on the radio in an attempt to shift to park. Or I pressed the park button a second time in an attempt to turn the car off.
I believe that different subsystems in the car - especially life safety / critical driving systems - should have vastly different controls that force different physical interactions.
> I believe that different subsystems in the car - especially life safety / critical driving systems - should have vastly different controls that force different physical interactions.
Absolutely.
For example, in a manual VW/Audi, you have to push the stick down, then way over into R.
It's one of the nicest feeling gestures, makes your intent extremely clear, and is impossible to do by accident.
Absolutely.
For example, in a manual VW/Audi, you have to push the stick down, then way over into R.
It's one of the nicest feeling gestures, makes your intent extremely clear, and is impossible to do by accident.
> I believe that different subsystems in the car - especially life safety / critical driving systems - should have vastly different controls that force different physical interactions.
Airplane cockpits are designed like this, for obvious reasons.
Airplane cockpits are designed like this, for obvious reasons.
It's really a hardware/ergonomics problem. The gear selector in these vehicles goes back to it's original position after you select a gear. One major problem with these new shifters is that it's very easy to select the wrong gear. Likely what happened is the driver was trying to go into reverse but pressed a little to hard on the gear shifter and caused it to go into drive instead.
These shift-by-wire shifters have been the biggest step back in automotive design in my opinion. Used to you can hop in, shift gears and you can tell which gear you are by where the shifter is (or can at least tell if you are in D or R), with these new shifters there's no way to get that sort of feedback so you are there having to carefully select a gear every single time. I rented a Jaguar that had the same thing and it took me a few tries to get the thing to go into reverse because you had to hit it just right or else it would go into P.
These shift-by-wire shifters have been the biggest step back in automotive design in my opinion. Used to you can hop in, shift gears and you can tell which gear you are by where the shifter is (or can at least tell if you are in D or R), with these new shifters there's no way to get that sort of feedback so you are there having to carefully select a gear every single time. I rented a Jaguar that had the same thing and it took me a few tries to get the thing to go into reverse because you had to hit it just right or else it would go into P.
Driven many cars with these “click” type shifters, including recent Volvos, thought I would hate it before trying but after one drive it’s actually very convenient and never saw it as a hazard.
You can’t press too hard to accidentally go the wrong direction. Up is R and down is D. Distinguishing up from down is very easy. Changing direction can only be done at standstill. Pressing too many times does nothing, except toggle D and B, that have same behavior from intent at parking point of view.
What might happen though is you thought you were in N but are actually in gear, as you accidentally clicked twice instead of once. But if you want to go N you should really just press P instead.
You can’t press too hard to accidentally go the wrong direction. Up is R and down is D. Distinguishing up from down is very easy. Changing direction can only be done at standstill. Pressing too many times does nothing, except toggle D and B, that have same behavior from intent at parking point of view.
What might happen though is you thought you were in N but are actually in gear, as you accidentally clicked twice instead of once. But if you want to go N you should really just press P instead.
I think what they are implying is that car with so many safety features should be able to handle this situation. Volvo has lot of "collision avoidance" safety features, so one would expect that they could handle this as well.
This is common feature in other cars - I rented mazda few years back and it did automatically stop when I almost reversed into another car.
This is common feature in other cars - I rented mazda few years back and it did automatically stop when I almost reversed into another car.
That's actually what I meant. It's unfortunate because the car already has everything it needs to handle this situation. I admit it was an idiotic thing from my part to do, but still, you gotta expect better from a 56K car whose main selling point is safety.
At that point, the driver really is to blame though. Manufacturer's job is to make things affordably; not to save himanity from themselves despite the ongoing insistance by governments that somehow the industrial sector should take on the onus for technically enforcing whatever measures that some bureaucrat sets their sights on today.
This mentality that the car should make up for fundamental defects in safe driving is horrifying.
This mentality that the car should make up for fundamental defects in safe driving is horrifying.
> the driver really is to blame though
Yes, I know I'm responsible. I do not want/need car/manufacturer to be responsible, I just want technology to help where it could.
> Manufacturer's job is to make things affordably
This maybe is your opinion, but that's not how it works. There is plenty of manufacturer's who manufacture things which are not affordable and plenty of people buy it. Pretty much any industry has luxury segment which also tends to be most profitable
> This mentality that the car should make up for fundamental defects in safe driving is horrifying
Humans are imperfect. Stress, distractions, tiredness etc could make anyone to make mistake, even yourself. Why would adding safety features be horrifying?
Yes, I know I'm responsible. I do not want/need car/manufacturer to be responsible, I just want technology to help where it could.
> Manufacturer's job is to make things affordably
This maybe is your opinion, but that's not how it works. There is plenty of manufacturer's who manufacture things which are not affordable and plenty of people buy it. Pretty much any industry has luxury segment which also tends to be most profitable
> This mentality that the car should make up for fundamental defects in safe driving is horrifying
Humans are imperfect. Stress, distractions, tiredness etc could make anyone to make mistake, even yourself. Why would adding safety features be horrifying?
Horrifying?
People always have made and always will make mistakes and we've been using technology to avoid accidents or minimize the consequences of them for a long time.
Technology preventing accidents is not horrifying.
The trouble of regulatory bureaucracy or liability is adjacent but separate.
People always have made and always will make mistakes and we've been using technology to avoid accidents or minimize the consequences of them for a long time.
Technology preventing accidents is not horrifying.
The trouble of regulatory bureaucracy or liability is adjacent but separate.
Exactly, not sure what OP is on about.
This Volvo like I said, is absolutely wonderful on the road, and the safety features it's got even in the base model are a godsend and make the car feel like it has a mind of its own, in a good way. It saved my butt from so many accidents that I never even noticed, it sees danger before it even happens, it's amazing.
So my point from the beginning was, if a car is capable of detecting/anticipating and dealing with danger at 100Kmh, it sure as hell should be able to prevent dumbass me from reversing into another car by mistake.
This Volvo like I said, is absolutely wonderful on the road, and the safety features it's got even in the base model are a godsend and make the car feel like it has a mind of its own, in a good way. It saved my butt from so many accidents that I never even noticed, it sees danger before it even happens, it's amazing.
So my point from the beginning was, if a car is capable of detecting/anticipating and dealing with danger at 100Kmh, it sure as hell should be able to prevent dumbass me from reversing into another car by mistake.
Its' not some impossible ask here. My 16k yaris beeps then brakes the car when going forwards into an obstacle. Why cant a 56k volvo do the same in reverse? It definitely has this technology, I think its mandated now, but seems to me OP is saying volvo didn't bother putting it on the reverse side of the car. Which is a little bewildering that a car manufacturer might consider a reverse collision impossible, and makes you wonder what other common sense safety things they've screwed up as well, or opted to knowingly not include to improve their bottom line.
And yet, airbags are a thing.
If there were zero UX feedback as to which gear the car is in, it seems entirely possible for the problem to be the software and not pebkac. In a thread discussing that the manufacturer's UX is horrible, blaming the user seems out of place. Of course the user bares some level of responsibility but the UX of a vehicle clearly affects drivability of a car. Eg BMW's widely derided iDrive UI.
> Ø or ⌀ is sometimes also used as a symbol for average value, particularly in German-speaking countries. ("Average" in German is Durchschnitt, directly translated as cut-through.)
From wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%98
My 2002 VW has the same and it means average over multiple trips. TM probably means this trip? You may have distance of the current trip and average consumption of the current trip (eg 40km, 6.3l/100km), then the last few trips with a combined average for those (eg 1500km, 5.4l/100km).
From wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%98
My 2002 VW has the same and it means average over multiple trips. TM probably means this trip? You may have distance of the current trip and average consumption of the current trip (eg 40km, 6.3l/100km), then the last few trips with a combined average for those (eg 1500km, 5.4l/100km).
It's not necessarily typeset the same as the letter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diameter#Encodings
Re the odometers, in my 2018 Volvo and my Wife's 2019 XC40. They are all accurate, but for different purposes.
1. The standard "life of the car" odometer is permanently on the left gauge, top reading
2. There is one (two?) manually resettable trip odometers
3. There is an auto-resetting trip odometer - it resets when the car has been off for four hours.
You can configure which of the second two are displayed by going to in-dash "app" menu and selecting what you want in the "Trip" tab. On my car, this configures the lower displays on the left and right gauges.
Update Re: your high beams - It sounds like you have them on auto. There's a spring loaded ring on the left-hand stalk that engages auto vs. manual high beam. Twist it and the light-with-an-A sign on your dash should change to a normal light symbol. You can then use the twist knob with detents to select parking light vs. low beam and whether you want auto-on or manual on. High beams are engaged by pushing the lever (or you can pull to flash).
1. The standard "life of the car" odometer is permanently on the left gauge, top reading
2. There is one (two?) manually resettable trip odometers
3. There is an auto-resetting trip odometer - it resets when the car has been off for four hours.
You can configure which of the second two are displayed by going to in-dash "app" menu and selecting what you want in the "Trip" tab. On my car, this configures the lower displays on the left and right gauges.
Update Re: your high beams - It sounds like you have them on auto. There's a spring loaded ring on the left-hand stalk that engages auto vs. manual high beam. Twist it and the light-with-an-A sign on your dash should change to a normal light symbol. You can then use the twist knob with detents to select parking light vs. low beam and whether you want auto-on or manual on. High beams are engaged by pushing the lever (or you can pull to flash).
It's quite telling the fact I needed a 3 paragraph reply from a user on HN to explain to me how to use the odometers and lights in my car.
I had a Tucson before this Volvo and it was just so intuitive and easy to use. It's something that needs to be standardized, they are tools that no car would be street legal without and thus, should have identical interactions no matter the manufacturer.
I had a Tucson before this Volvo and it was just so intuitive and easy to use. It's something that needs to be standardized, they are tools that no car would be street legal without and thus, should have identical interactions no matter the manufacturer.
I'm confident you could have found all the information contained in those paragraphs in the manual if you had read it instead of complaining on HN.
I did actually look up the manual that's in the User Guide menu in the infotainment system and there is no mention of how to operate those things ...
OTOH, maybe the other problem is that you're buying cars too frequently to be willing to study the manual.
There are plenty of times when ergonomics and feature discoverability are at odds, and I heavily prioritize ergonomics when I'm driving a large, lethal object at super-human speeds.
There are plenty of times when ergonomics and feature discoverability are at odds, and I heavily prioritize ergonomics when I'm driving a large, lethal object at super-human speeds.
I find this hilarious, especially since they brag about having "Google inside", which already sounded more like a confirmation to me of a dystopian timeline rather than a feature.
> it shouldn't have let me reverse any more as it was seeing a clear obstacle behind me or at least make me double check by beeping
My backup camera frequently loses its shit because it gets obstructed by rain or snow, or sometimes paint on the ground fakes it out. If the only sensor is a camera, that must not override the driver. Beeping is fine. I might feel differently about lidar.
On that topic, though... I really wish backup cameras had some sort of wiper.
My backup camera frequently loses its shit because it gets obstructed by rain or snow, or sometimes paint on the ground fakes it out. If the only sensor is a camera, that must not override the driver. Beeping is fine. I might feel differently about lidar.
On that topic, though... I really wish backup cameras had some sort of wiper.
I honestly don't think my volvo bases its rear detection on the camera itself, pretty sure it's the sensors because on the camera it tells you in segments exactly how far each obstacle is and doing that using video + ML would be overkill for a simple feature that could use lidar.
The odometer problem is really strange. I have done some work with Volvo and they used to take a lot of care over preserving odometer readings across any repair work done on the car electronics.
I get why, but my Volvo (2017) WILL NOT let me lock the keys in the car. Which is annoying if I'm trying to safely warm it up on a -15 Minnesota day and have the spare keys in the house. There's lots of forums detailing tricks involving rolling the windows down or locking the car from the back seat. I love all the tech automation and safety features, but at times I find myself befuddled by the designers choices.
My 2004 Ford Escape won't let me lock or unlock the car with the key fob if the engine is running. So I can't warm it up in the morning without either risking it being driven away or having an extra door key for just that purpose. Ugh.
I’m also unable to lock my 2019 Toyota if it is running and I’m not in the car. It’s implemented this way so they can sell you remote start. Pity about all the car thefts that happen as a result of auto manufacturer greed.
Odd. I believe my 2018 model year Volvo allows me to start the car, take the key with me, and lock the doors (so long as I take my key fob with me).
I'm guessing that the parent has a physical key and the fob won't let them lock it.
My '05 Nissan Altima let me start the engine with a physical key, and then lock the car with the fob.
My '05 Nissan Altima let me start the engine with a physical key, and then lock the car with the fob.
Weird! My older (2007) Volvo doesn't let me change the station in reverse, but I can adjust the volume via a knob, or turn off the radio by pushing the knob/button.
Hopefully the system on your Volvo can be updated to fix what are presumably bugs in the system!
Hopefully the system on your Volvo can be updated to fix what are presumably bugs in the system!
Same - I've a 2021 XC60. I can turn the volume knob, press the pause button, or use the volume controls on the steering wheel while in reverse. Just not use the touchscreen controls unless I press the "home" button which closes out the rear camera.
My Toyota's head unit bulldozes to reverse mode and if I was in reverse for 10 seconds, the song resumes 10 seconds as if its been playing in the background.
My Toyotas head unit has similar behavior issues. It will connect to bluetooth and start playing the song as soon as you turn on the car, only no music will come out of the speakers until you pause the song, then press play. Why do I have to manually "wake up" the speakers instead of the head unit? Probably because this software took one engineer no more than a week to write before it was shipped out full of these annoyances that would have been avoided had you, you know, tested out connecting a blutooth device to the head unit before production even just once.
I had a rental V90 last year, and it was easily the dumbest smart car I've ever had the displeasure of driving. Comically bad in some cases. Death by a thousand cuts. Little things like you say, or the fact that it would blare about the front parking sensor detecting the wall when I put the car in reverse, etc. I ended up spending a few minutes going through all the menus turning stuff off.
I had a rental Camaro a couple years ago that would pop up a notification if you were driving a bit spirited that said "Sport Shifting Mode Engaged" or something to that effect. Which was prominently displayed on top of the speedometer.
I went car shopping this year in the new market and found that that if you want more a "dumb" car (UX occurs primarily outside of a touchscreen, no internet, no geolocation) you lose all potential for any nice non-smart features. So no heated/powered seats, no power windows, the material of the interior is refurbished from a spirit airlines airplane, etc.
I think manufacturers are hoping that certain aspects of the modern auto become "can't live withouts", e.g. bluetooth, which helps them smuggle all the other more marginally useful, security and ux intrusive features into your model. Now as others have mentioned, these unwanted smart features might actually be required by law/regulation/tax-credit/legal-dept, so it's not bad programming/design but "design by committee" that's dooming our chances of a good dumb car.
I wonder how well my car will age when miscellaneous sensor all over the car start failing. It used to just show a light on your dashboard, now I wonder if I'll be grounded - stuck in park - or hounded by incessant bells repeating the same spurious warning over and over again.
I think manufacturers are hoping that certain aspects of the modern auto become "can't live withouts", e.g. bluetooth, which helps them smuggle all the other more marginally useful, security and ux intrusive features into your model. Now as others have mentioned, these unwanted smart features might actually be required by law/regulation/tax-credit/legal-dept, so it's not bad programming/design but "design by committee" that's dooming our chances of a good dumb car.
I wonder how well my car will age when miscellaneous sensor all over the car start failing. It used to just show a light on your dashboard, now I wonder if I'll be grounded - stuck in park - or hounded by incessant bells repeating the same spurious warning over and over again.
In the US in May of 2018, a federal law went into effect saying all new cars require a backup camera. This means that there needs to be an LCD screen visible to the driver for the camera. This is sort of a slippery slope as far as feature creep. Now that you have this screen, aren't drivers going to expect to see something on it 99% of the time when they aren't backing up?
Actually this leads me to realize why some automakers like Ford integrate the screen into the rear view mirror, so when it isn't on, it disappears behind a one way mirror.
Actually this leads me to realize why some automakers like Ford integrate the screen into the rear view mirror, so when it isn't on, it disappears behind a one way mirror.
> In the US in May of 2018, a federal law went into effect saying all new cars require a backup camera.
This law actually says that if a car can't meet a prescribed rear visibility threshold it needs a backup camera. Instead of make safer designs manufacturers just install cameras.
But I don't disagree manufacturers are using screens as an excuse to add superfluous bullshit they'll then use for data mining. See USC 2342 Unintended Consequences, Law of.
My favorite part of backup camera is manufacturers that put a warning overlay on the video telling you to watch your surroundings. An overlay that eats up some significant percentage of the screen occulting potential hazards you might otherwise see. I for one can't wait for the backup camera to display ads in the lower third. If they take up enough space manufacturers could make a mint selling personal injury and insurance ads.
This law actually says that if a car can't meet a prescribed rear visibility threshold it needs a backup camera. Instead of make safer designs manufacturers just install cameras.
But I don't disagree manufacturers are using screens as an excuse to add superfluous bullshit they'll then use for data mining. See USC 2342 Unintended Consequences, Law of.
My favorite part of backup camera is manufacturers that put a warning overlay on the video telling you to watch your surroundings. An overlay that eats up some significant percentage of the screen occulting potential hazards you might otherwise see. I for one can't wait for the backup camera to display ads in the lower third. If they take up enough space manufacturers could make a mint selling personal injury and insurance ads.
note: 'proscribe' means to prohibit and 'prescribe' means to require
Thanks, fixed it. Don't want a misspelling to affect the effect of my statement.
Not enough humor on HN. Well done.
My 2012 volvo has a reasonably large LCD that is used for the backup camera, and infotainment etc.
However, I have it set to screen saver mode, and it is completely powered down until I put the car in reverse. It also wakes for certain things like displaying the temperature if I change it with the real knobs.
The Speedometer and Rev counter are physical needles. Newer models have replaced these with a central LCD, which means I will hang onto this one as long as I can.
There is no reason a car can’t have a display and be humane, other than stupid corporate design sensibilities.
However, I have it set to screen saver mode, and it is completely powered down until I put the car in reverse. It also wakes for certain things like displaying the temperature if I change it with the real knobs.
The Speedometer and Rev counter are physical needles. Newer models have replaced these with a central LCD, which means I will hang onto this one as long as I can.
There is no reason a car can’t have a display and be humane, other than stupid corporate design sensibilities.
Yep, my 2009 Volvo has a popup screen that can be pushed down into the dash. I like it because I almost never use the reversing camera, but on the rare occasion I want to it's available. The rest of the car is all physical controls.
are you not worried about running over small children?
Serious question. Was there some epidemic of running over children that I missed in the 18 years of operating vehicles before I got one with a backup camera?
It’s not a serious question to ask if there was an ‘epidemic’. That is clearly a straw man.
Backup cameras were mandated as a result of cases of children being run over, because mirrors are inadequate to detect their presence.
Backup cameras were mandated as a result of cases of children being run over, because mirrors are inadequate to detect their presence.
My Toyota has no LCD screen visible. Instead they makes the backup camera screen behind a partially silvered section of the rear view mirror. It’s quite nice. Not as big and bright as others but gets the job done and is super discreet.
I bought an aftermarket camera that's like ford's, but it just slips over the old mirror. Thing is great, shoots 4k and is not integrated to the car's system. Also has voice commands, so its super easy to use the real mirror or any other functions. Screen in the mirror is the way.
Are you saying that you’re watching 4K video from your rear view camera in a 1.5in screen or it’s a dash cam?
Yeah it's a dashcam, records 4k in the front, and 2.5k the rear camera. I'm sure the screen is much less, but looks great on my tv.
I’d rather have a nice bright (in the dark) camera with a wide field of view that’s only 480p.
Can you show me the camera and how it's integrated in the car?
It's a Kingslim DL12 and is powered through the cigarette lighter or directly connected.
Does this mean you have a wire hanging from your mirror at all times? Also how is the back one connected?
Not him, but the wire goes up into the ceiling plastic and around the side, under the plastic, and only comes out around the cigarette lighter. The "back" camera is usually built into the same unit. The advantage over what he is describing is that people often break into cars to steal the more visible (non-mirror) cameras.
Yep, other guy is correct, and wires were my first concern, but they are long and you just shim them in between the panels around and down the windows. Same with the back, but there you might have to get more creative running the wire and mounting the camera depending on vehicle.
My subaru has a tiny screen built in to the rear view. Its great. Anything else would be a downgrade.
Actual rear visibility would be an upgrade. Cars don't seem to come with that anymore.
I had to "forced upgrade" my 2003 Accord last year to a 2018 Acura RDX SUV (dumb woman on her plowed into me at an intersection). It's a decent vehicle, but it's the base model and doesn't have all the camera shit. For cars like this, I can understand why they started adding 360 cameras: you can't see anything from the driver's seat! My rear view, even if I turn my head, is completely blocked by headrests, and there are huge blindspots on the sides, even with side mirrors that have a section at a different angle.
Merging onto a freeway is scary in this thing, whereas in my 2003 car, there was a 360 view all around me. Like a lot of things, looks have become more important than function, even in something as safety-critical as a car.
Merging onto a freeway is scary in this thing, whereas in my 2003 car, there was a 360 view all around me. Like a lot of things, looks have become more important than function, even in something as safety-critical as a car.
That would be amazing. The only reason I'm not out buying vintage 60's cars is because I don't want to be in one if there's a crash. But the visibility from back then was great, they were basically greenhouses with wheels.
Wind tunnel engineering.
Cars do not have large upright rear windows anymore because a sloping "fastback" design with a higher rear deck is more aerodynamic and gets an extra fraction of an MPG on the fuel economy rating.
Cars do not have large upright rear windows anymore because a sloping "fastback" design with a higher rear deck is more aerodynamic and gets an extra fraction of an MPG on the fuel economy rating.
I’m not so sure this is entirely due to fuel. A Volkswagen Golf with great fuel economy still has a big rear window and an FJ Cruiser has a tiny one and chugs gasoline. Many of the cars don’t actually have dramatic tapering roof lines, what they have is rising belt lines which cut into the window space.
Large pillars to hold airbags are also a big consumer of window space.
Not all cars have such high beltlines that make you feel like you are driving a sherman tank. American cars seem to have these issues more than imports. Maybe its a way to shirk around some crash testing metrics by deferring to less visibility than to offer more visibility and potentially spend more engineering something just as strong?
My theory with the XC60 refresh with its huge, high, flat-top, snub-nosed bonnet compared to the old sloping one is that all that extra volume is for the fancy double/hybrid engines and so on.
Or maybe people just like to feel like their car is a rhino, but the same refresh also slightly lowered the roofline and the driving position feels lower too.
The other down side is that my wife always shouts that I'm going to crash when parking nose-in because the bonnet feels twice as long as it really is.
Or maybe people just like to feel like their car is a rhino, but the same refresh also slightly lowered the roofline and the driving position feels lower too.
The other down side is that my wife always shouts that I'm going to crash when parking nose-in because the bonnet feels twice as long as it really is.
Completely different car,. I have no idea where to begin... Maybe the wheels?
While you're not wrong, that's just the current trend of people preferring SUVs to cars.
The "slope" back design seems to hit this sweet spot. Ease of entry, versatility, and capability while not appearing to be a "beast" of a vehicle.
The "slope" back design seems to hit this sweet spot. Ease of entry, versatility, and capability while not appearing to be a "beast" of a vehicle.
The prius has this fuel efficient design and opted to just give you more window on the back of the car anyhow.
Larger windows mean more cooling and heating needed, and high window sills especially on sedans are needed because of how insanely high SUVs and trucks are these days, because people need to overcompensate.
My mom’s Subaru has a backup camera that appears in the rear view mirror and then disappears when in drive.
It’s being done by all big-3 automakers. It’s probably a supplier that supplies those mirrors.
> I think manufacturers are hoping that certain aspects of the modern auto become "can't live withouts", e.g. bluetooth, which helps them smuggle all the other more marginally useful, security and ux intrusive features into your model.
I think that implies nefariousness that probably isn't there. It's more likely a combination of:
1. Marketing/sales wanting whiz-bang features to use in their pitches.
2. Copycatting competitors, also for marketing/sales pitches.
3. Customers that are often not aware of the downsides, have been conditioned to accept them (e.g. they'll all like that now), or are uncritically enthusiastic about shiny new things.
4. Lazy design thinking, of the kind that causes Mozilla to drop good features from Firefox.
5. Cost cutting, of the kind that causes almost all companies to consistently choose to make their products marginally worse over time (e.g. lets not pay for feature X, since the users can use a cheaper awkward workaround instead).
Personally, I think we should have some federal standards for car UX: a required set of standard physical controls for commonly used standard functions (e.g. car operation, climate control, audio entertainment) and plus minimum standards for screen UIs (e.g. touch sensitivity & accuracy, UX latency, etc.).
While I'm wishing, cell modems and other data transmitters should be required to be separately fused, and that the car should be required to operate without annoying error messages if that fuse is pulled.
I think that implies nefariousness that probably isn't there. It's more likely a combination of:
1. Marketing/sales wanting whiz-bang features to use in their pitches.
2. Copycatting competitors, also for marketing/sales pitches.
3. Customers that are often not aware of the downsides, have been conditioned to accept them (e.g. they'll all like that now), or are uncritically enthusiastic about shiny new things.
4. Lazy design thinking, of the kind that causes Mozilla to drop good features from Firefox.
5. Cost cutting, of the kind that causes almost all companies to consistently choose to make their products marginally worse over time (e.g. lets not pay for feature X, since the users can use a cheaper awkward workaround instead).
Personally, I think we should have some federal standards for car UX: a required set of standard physical controls for commonly used standard functions (e.g. car operation, climate control, audio entertainment) and plus minimum standards for screen UIs (e.g. touch sensitivity & accuracy, UX latency, etc.).
While I'm wishing, cell modems and other data transmitters should be required to be separately fused, and that the car should be required to operate without annoying error messages if that fuse is pulled.
It definitely fails Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." As long as you assume "stupidity" to include stupid things about the mathematics of our universe like coordination problems, design by committee, and the tragedy of the commons...
There's a very slow, very week feedback loop that may be too weak at the moment to fight against this trend: the customers who are dealing with and worry about perpetual sensor failures and computer issues at 150,000 miles are not the same customers who are buying the car off the dealership lot. Meanwhile, the people with brand new vehicles are not worried about those problems, they're only slightly (and only long after it's too late) worried about the eventual resale value. I trust that my old Toyota and Subaru will still be dependable and repairable for many years, but I won't buy an old BMW or Mercedes because my family and coworkers have too many horror stories of expensive, exotic gadgets that have gone bad in mysterious ways.
But we're 40 years removed from the bad old days of the 80s and 90s when those imports were decimating the lethargic Big 3 in quality and cost, which is more like the time scale on which consumer attitudes like that began to be formed. 2018 laws regarding rearview cameras are really new in comparison to a cultural thing like that.
There's a very slow, very week feedback loop that may be too weak at the moment to fight against this trend: the customers who are dealing with and worry about perpetual sensor failures and computer issues at 150,000 miles are not the same customers who are buying the car off the dealership lot. Meanwhile, the people with brand new vehicles are not worried about those problems, they're only slightly (and only long after it's too late) worried about the eventual resale value. I trust that my old Toyota and Subaru will still be dependable and repairable for many years, but I won't buy an old BMW or Mercedes because my family and coworkers have too many horror stories of expensive, exotic gadgets that have gone bad in mysterious ways.
But we're 40 years removed from the bad old days of the 80s and 90s when those imports were decimating the lethargic Big 3 in quality and cost, which is more like the time scale on which consumer attitudes like that began to be formed. 2018 laws regarding rearview cameras are really new in comparison to a cultural thing like that.
No, sorry, corporations don't get Hanlon's Razor. One should expect malice from them until incompetence is proven.
Coupling bluetooth to all sorts of unnecessary stuff as part of a "technology package" was the mantra for Euro car manufacturers for a decade or so until bluetooth became something people expected, no matter what.
So I wanted something like this when we were looking for a minivan I don't trust smart devices or vehicles as that's just one more thing that will break.
So we found a van didn't have those things but my wife insisted on BT and a backup cam. So we negotiated with the dealer and they were able to make a deal with us to have their shop install a backup cam and Bluetooth for cost, and we love the van ever since.
My point is that a lot of features can be put in the car after market and you don't have to deal with having to buy the whole upgraded package.
So we found a van didn't have those things but my wife insisted on BT and a backup cam. So we negotiated with the dealer and they were able to make a deal with us to have their shop install a backup cam and Bluetooth for cost, and we love the van ever since.
My point is that a lot of features can be put in the car after market and you don't have to deal with having to buy the whole upgraded package.
You can aftermarket this with a simple replacement rear-view mirror/camera kit. Easy-peasy. Or an aftermarket car stereo/ camera kit.
There are many cases where aftermarket versions of these features will perform as good or better than the OEM version. Granted, it's extra work to research and install them, but the end result can be great.
Personally, I will research used cars with top end factory trim packages, looking for models with either a DIN sized radio slot or readily available aftermarket upgrades.
By double checking for compatibility ahead of time you can then retrofit carplay, bluetooth, etc. into a "basic" car, for example: https://gromaudio.com/vline/index.html
I also prefer to shop for used cars because I see them as more "stable" than new cars.
What I mean by that is, major flaws in the model/year have been reported and ideally fixed (but are at least known) in the years since release. Common issues/symptoms and repair details are much easier to find online via forums, etc. after a car has been around for a few years.
Personally, I will research used cars with top end factory trim packages, looking for models with either a DIN sized radio slot or readily available aftermarket upgrades.
By double checking for compatibility ahead of time you can then retrofit carplay, bluetooth, etc. into a "basic" car, for example: https://gromaudio.com/vline/index.html
I also prefer to shop for used cars because I see them as more "stable" than new cars.
What I mean by that is, major flaws in the model/year have been reported and ideally fixed (but are at least known) in the years since release. Common issues/symptoms and repair details are much easier to find online via forums, etc. after a car has been around for a few years.
Nice, thanks for sharing Vline!
I wish modern cars still followed that philosophy, but it's hard to find cars with DIN radio slots these days since all the electronics are so integrated into them. It feels like you'll be stuck in pre-2015 cars if you choose that. Not that pre-2015 cars are terrible, but it makes it harder to find low millage ones.
I also think about the environmental impact of buying a new car. Manufacturers try to sell you on the idea that getting a new car is better for the environment but I really wonder how much fuel you need to save over the lifetime of a car to make it worth the cost of building a new one, in comparison to just fixing and older one. Who knows, maybe it's better to keep driving a '80 olds than to buy the latest ford electric truck.
I wish modern cars still followed that philosophy, but it's hard to find cars with DIN radio slots these days since all the electronics are so integrated into them. It feels like you'll be stuck in pre-2015 cars if you choose that. Not that pre-2015 cars are terrible, but it makes it harder to find low millage ones.
I also think about the environmental impact of buying a new car. Manufacturers try to sell you on the idea that getting a new car is better for the environment but I really wonder how much fuel you need to save over the lifetime of a car to make it worth the cost of building a new one, in comparison to just fixing and older one. Who knows, maybe it's better to keep driving a '80 olds than to buy the latest ford electric truck.
Did you look into Subaru? They are still using physical controls for all car functionality. You can get heated seats, heated steering, stereoscopic lane keep assist & adaptive cruise control, etc. There is a touch screen, but I only use it for Apple Car Play.
Same for our 2021 Mazda crossover. Lcd screen but no touch screen. Just a spin/tilt/press knob for media/settings. Climate control is a dedicated physical panel. It was a big selling point fornus
Mazda is the only major auto manufacturer that seriously prioritizes driving ergonomics over tech gimmicks/cost savings. But gimmicks sell better.
My mom's Subaru has all the heating and seat heating controls on the touch screen. It's a 2022 model, so either it's changed to that, or it's part of a certain package. Also, it's one of the worst touch screen systems I have ever seen.
Sounds like this varies based on model and year? My 2020 Ascent is like this, with the touchscreen only for radio/CarPlay (and backup camera), though there is a physical volume knob (yikes, touchscreen volume control would be a nightmare). But I've heard other Subaru owners say more things are integrated. I'm not sure it's strictly increasing by model year either, maybe they added some and then went back to physical controls later in some models?
Anyway, yes, Subaru should be a possibility, but obviously research the specific model first.
Anyway, yes, Subaru should be a possibility, but obviously research the specific model first.
Sadly, Subaru are also starting to slowly move controls onto a touchscreen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFbZ3nkhcRQ
I was a fan of subarus until around 2007-2008 when the interiors took a nosedive and never really recovered. A 35k car like a wrx shouldn't have panel rattle like a 14k economy car, but it does. Also the paint on the knobs tends to wear off fast.
> these unwanted smart features
Only within the niche HN-type tech crowd. Most people outside of this group want these features, even other techies, including myself.
It's the same discussion on any thread involving smart devices. People want this stuff, that's why there have been over 200M standalone smart speakers sold.
As far as why these things get bundled, that’s just how auto manufacturing works. Every unique configuration costs an additional overhead to the OEM. Bundling allows them to reduce this overhead.
Only within the niche HN-type tech crowd. Most people outside of this group want these features, even other techies, including myself.
It's the same discussion on any thread involving smart devices. People want this stuff, that's why there have been over 200M standalone smart speakers sold.
As far as why these things get bundled, that’s just how auto manufacturing works. Every unique configuration costs an additional overhead to the OEM. Bundling allows them to reduce this overhead.
I'm going to push back on this statement, as I spend my day-to-day more immersed in the non-techy car world than in the HN tech world. I see a lot of frustration with new tech features among car reviewers and enthusiasts. You can read almost any car-related social media forums and see ire directed at stuff like complicated touchscreen-driven interfaces and flaky emergency braking systems. I also know many older folks who simply ignore and avoid all these tech features that now come standard on luxury vehicles. Anecdotal evidence, I know, but I don't think there's widespread acceptance of this stuff as you imply.
the world of car reviewers and enthusiasts is also a bubble that's pretty far removed from what typical car owners care about. I care about hard buttons, analog tachs, manual transmissions, etc., but most people I know really don't. they are somewhere between complete apathy and genuine appreciation for all the new tech features. mainly they just want some form of awd crossover that makes them feel safe.
There are a fair number of reviewers out there (Catchpole, Savagegeese) who are starting to savage some of this stuff. Physical buttons are a safety feature.
The only data I have is anecdotal, but I ask people about this all the time. Some people seem to like the idea of an infotainment system, or rely on it for car trips with kids, but I have not heard any drivers who prefer touchscreens to physical controls.
I know that I, personally, love having a backup camera, but don't need or a screen for anything else, and would prefer physical controls for most things. Unfortunately that's not an option in most vehicles, so I am kind of coming to the conclusion that my next car will be an older model that's "dumb", since this is an overall better experience.
I don't think you could use the number of sales of cars with this kind of UI as evidence that people like it, since (the article mentions this) car manufacturers want to put it everywhere, regardless of popularity. It's got so many benefits from their side. It's not that I think they forced it on people, I think it was originally a cool novelty that people were excited about. But, after the novelty wore off, and a lot of people stopped wanting it in their cars, the industry had so fully committed to it that people just don't have the option to do without it these days.
I know that I, personally, love having a backup camera, but don't need or a screen for anything else, and would prefer physical controls for most things. Unfortunately that's not an option in most vehicles, so I am kind of coming to the conclusion that my next car will be an older model that's "dumb", since this is an overall better experience.
I don't think you could use the number of sales of cars with this kind of UI as evidence that people like it, since (the article mentions this) car manufacturers want to put it everywhere, regardless of popularity. It's got so many benefits from their side. It's not that I think they forced it on people, I think it was originally a cool novelty that people were excited about. But, after the novelty wore off, and a lot of people stopped wanting it in their cars, the industry had so fully committed to it that people just don't have the option to do without it these days.
Totally agree. A backup camera actually has utility. I like the blind spot warning system quite a bit too.
Most everything else is just technological kitsch. This isn't that new though.
Stereo systems have had equalizers forever even though almost everyone is just going to make already mastered audio sound worse by filtering it. That is not the point really of an equalizer. It is just to have a series of useless controls that will never be used but looks cool when you first see it. Pure technological kitsch.
Most everything else is just technological kitsch. This isn't that new though.
Stereo systems have had equalizers forever even though almost everyone is just going to make already mastered audio sound worse by filtering it. That is not the point really of an equalizer. It is just to have a series of useless controls that will never be used but looks cool when you first see it. Pure technological kitsch.
I do like bluetooth, power seat memory, 360 cameras, etc. But please, for the love of usability, don't bury all of the HVAC and Audio controls in a touchscreen menu. I want real knobs and buttons for all of that stuff. Even Volvo, a company focused on safety, moved nearly all of the HVAC controls to their touchscreen.
Nah. Most non-techies I've talked to about this are very frustrated with the move to touch screens and "smart" features they never use. This is particularly true, basically universal, among people over 50.
As a techie, I hate touch screens replacing what should be tactile buttons/knobs/switches that can be used without taking my eyes off the road. I don't mind them for a nav system. But, in many cars, they've stripped the radio and A/C controls and put them behind menus in a touch screen which has a dozen other screens that I never use. I don't care about all that garbage. I need to be able to adjust the A/C and the radio without taking my eyes off the road. And I don't need a default-always-bright screen in the cabin messing up my night vision. I was glad to find that setting buried in a menu somewhere, but holy crap.
my dad has been trading his truck in every few years for as long as I've been alive. every time he would get new bells and whistles to play around with and it made him happy. his last truck trade-in, two years ago, was miserable. the new Ford truck had all kinds of shit he'd never use like a wi-fi hotspot and such, but with all these new doodads came more points of failure—he took it to the shop to get something fixed multiple times per week for a few weeks before selling the truck and getting a more simple & reliable SUV instead.
people want fancy bells & whistles in their vehicles right up until it makes them a maintenance nightmare—you want your car to just work, like they largely used to.
people want fancy bells & whistles in their vehicles right up until it makes them a maintenance nightmare—you want your car to just work, like they largely used to.
I'm always surprised how defeatist and negative the tech community's attitude towards computerized UX in cars is. Often the opinions are simplistic and dismissive instead of zooming into the details. It's similar to when onscreen keyboards in phones where "obviously never going to work" when now, most people probably wouldn't want to give up the screen real estate for a hardware keyboard, except even more one-note.
I find it much more true that most car software simply isn't very good yet on average. Let's say most existing implementations of touch UIs in cars don't add value and are cumbersome to use, for example - but that just means they're individually badly realized, not that it's not worth trying. And in reality, it's also a much more nuanced "depending on the use case and the situation" or "impacted by bad performance".
There are quality differences out there. And there's plenty of use cases in cars that benefit from a thorough software approach. This is an area with interesting problems to solve and plenty of innovation left to happen, and where hard and good work makes a mark.
I find it much more true that most car software simply isn't very good yet on average. Let's say most existing implementations of touch UIs in cars don't add value and are cumbersome to use, for example - but that just means they're individually badly realized, not that it's not worth trying. And in reality, it's also a much more nuanced "depending on the use case and the situation" or "impacted by bad performance".
There are quality differences out there. And there's plenty of use cases in cars that benefit from a thorough software approach. This is an area with interesting problems to solve and plenty of innovation left to happen, and where hard and good work makes a mark.
The big difference between cars and smartphones is that you can focus all of your attention on your smartphone screen to use it. That's not true for the driver of an automobile.
The best automobile interfaces use knobs of different sizes and with different textures so that you can find them without looking. Buttons should be arranged in rows, so they are easy to find with a short look. Extremely common buttons should be located on the steering wheel. Etc.
Until screens can offer some kind of dynamic tactile experience, where you can feel what you're about to control, they can't be better than real tactile buttons and knobs.
Don't get me wrong, I love a big screen in my car for advanced features (360 camera, vehicle settings, navigation, music, etc). But the basics need to be tactile.
The best automobile interfaces use knobs of different sizes and with different textures so that you can find them without looking. Buttons should be arranged in rows, so they are easy to find with a short look. Extremely common buttons should be located on the steering wheel. Etc.
Until screens can offer some kind of dynamic tactile experience, where you can feel what you're about to control, they can't be better than real tactile buttons and knobs.
Don't get me wrong, I love a big screen in my car for advanced features (360 camera, vehicle settings, navigation, music, etc). But the basics need to be tactile.
That's kind of what I mean: The discussion always starts and too often ends there. A couple of thoughts:
- Already in the pre-touchscreen, button-dominated area, plenty of more complicated use cases had terrible UX, and in many cases touchscreens have made them much easier. For example, do you remember how difficult it often was to program radio presets in 80s head-units? There were a lot of real clunkers there.
- There's plenty of newer use cases that would be hard or impossible to make easy with traditional hardware button UX, such as route and EV charge planning.
- Good software offers many possibilities to avoid interactions altogether, or make them single-step instead of multi-step. A good screen-based system will now often suggest interactions pro-actively and situationally at the top-level of the system and reduce interaction to a single multi-modal (touch/gesture/speech) confirmation on what used to be multi-step processes.
- Screens can offer tactile experiences - most recently with the introduction of screens that can do permanent haptic feedback via electrostatic friction coefficient modulation, emulating different surface feels as the finger moves.
- You already mentioned features such as 360 degree cameras: If nothing else, screens are great for showing information. Interactions aside, this alone has a lot of legs left and there's absolutely quality differences between good and bad implementations.
- There's absolutely nothing wrong with a good physical button (on the contrary - few things are more satisfying than a good, solid, weighty button) and having both for use in the appropriate situation. It doesn't mean there's no possible benefits from further investment into good car software.
I feel a lot of this is rooted in first-hand experience with bad systems - which I agree are plentiful, and just as awful as a bad, clunky, unrefined phone onscreen keyboard. Dare to imagine a good one.
Working on car systems means getting to own the form factor and the entire surroundings of a user, much more than working on software targeting rarely-changing phone and PC devices. It's an open field for software and hardware innovation and deserves a little more professional excitement and ambition to do it well.
- Already in the pre-touchscreen, button-dominated area, plenty of more complicated use cases had terrible UX, and in many cases touchscreens have made them much easier. For example, do you remember how difficult it often was to program radio presets in 80s head-units? There were a lot of real clunkers there.
- There's plenty of newer use cases that would be hard or impossible to make easy with traditional hardware button UX, such as route and EV charge planning.
- Good software offers many possibilities to avoid interactions altogether, or make them single-step instead of multi-step. A good screen-based system will now often suggest interactions pro-actively and situationally at the top-level of the system and reduce interaction to a single multi-modal (touch/gesture/speech) confirmation on what used to be multi-step processes.
- Screens can offer tactile experiences - most recently with the introduction of screens that can do permanent haptic feedback via electrostatic friction coefficient modulation, emulating different surface feels as the finger moves.
- You already mentioned features such as 360 degree cameras: If nothing else, screens are great for showing information. Interactions aside, this alone has a lot of legs left and there's absolutely quality differences between good and bad implementations.
- There's absolutely nothing wrong with a good physical button (on the contrary - few things are more satisfying than a good, solid, weighty button) and having both for use in the appropriate situation. It doesn't mean there's no possible benefits from further investment into good car software.
I feel a lot of this is rooted in first-hand experience with bad systems - which I agree are plentiful, and just as awful as a bad, clunky, unrefined phone onscreen keyboard. Dare to imagine a good one.
Working on car systems means getting to own the form factor and the entire surroundings of a user, much more than working on software targeting rarely-changing phone and PC devices. It's an open field for software and hardware innovation and deserves a little more professional excitement and ambition to do it well.
I agree with some of that. The new HUMMER EV has some neat blended tactile/screen interactions where the button labels are on-screen above the buttons. That in itself is not new, but the way that some features work is really slick, such as sub-menu options replacing the functionality of adjacent buttons when appropriate.
I wouldn't rule out that tactile HVAC and Audio controls are always better than a touchscreen, but I have trouble seeing the benefit for some of those basic controls. I mean, let's take the volume control for example. It's a very simple linear concept, there are no branches in the options for volume. There are no sub-menus -- you either want it higher or lower. You always want that control in the same spot so it's easy to find and you always want it available so you can use it at any time. For those reasons, I have trouble seeing what a touchscreen can add to that particular parameter. A knob seems better suited by nearly every metric.
Touchscreens on the other hand, are great for controlling more complex parameters. Even a temperature control, while similar to volume, is actually more complex because the change is not immediate. You're setting a parameter that will be true in the future, and that is something where a dynamic display can be beneficial. That said, you still generally want that control to be in the same spot and always available so it's not an obvious win for touchscreens.
I wouldn't rule out that tactile HVAC and Audio controls are always better than a touchscreen, but I have trouble seeing the benefit for some of those basic controls. I mean, let's take the volume control for example. It's a very simple linear concept, there are no branches in the options for volume. There are no sub-menus -- you either want it higher or lower. You always want that control in the same spot so it's easy to find and you always want it available so you can use it at any time. For those reasons, I have trouble seeing what a touchscreen can add to that particular parameter. A knob seems better suited by nearly every metric.
Touchscreens on the other hand, are great for controlling more complex parameters. Even a temperature control, while similar to volume, is actually more complex because the change is not immediate. You're setting a parameter that will be true in the future, and that is something where a dynamic display can be beneficial. That said, you still generally want that control to be in the same spot and always available so it's not an obvious win for touchscreens.
I think that’s the point and also what sho_hn is saying. There’s nothing inherently wrong with screens and touch controls it’s that the car companies have done a truly terrible job in implementation. We have lots of tech including haptics and other feedback to make these interfaces work far better for humans that isn’t being taken advantage of. On the other hand a great counterpoint is the story of the Mac Touch Bar. (I’m a software person who also works on cars)
Then they are charging their buyers 30k to beta test, and leaving buyers with no other option, which, I don't think most people are comfortable with. I think it's easily identifiable to the HN crowd, because most readers are very familiar with this process and the discomfort it can cause.
Then you add on the argument of what they are doing with the information, and if they can be trusted..
Then you add on the argument of what they are doing with the information, and if they can be trusted..
> It's similar to when onscreen keyboards in phones where "obviously never going to work" when now, most people probably wouldn't want to give up the screen real estate for a hardware keyboard, except even more one-note.
I absolutely hate my screens keyboard, and wish I could just buy a phone with a real physical keyboard. I get so angry trying to use this thing. It’s far less useful than a regular keyboard.
I absolutely hate my screens keyboard, and wish I could just buy a phone with a real physical keyboard. I get so angry trying to use this thing. It’s far less useful than a regular keyboard.
A keyboard that can snitch on you is a privacy invader's wet dream.
The problem is hardware people can't write software, nor can they put in decent hardware so the software is fast. Nor make it secure.
That's why people buy Teslas, they're a software company that makes hardware on the side. And participates in hacker challenges, offering cars to the winners.
No one actually wants cars with no computers, they just think they do because they don't realise how much computers do, like reduce the amount of wires by 10x, and output error messages on the level of a crappy microcontroller instead of maybe a flashing light if you're lucky
That's why people buy Teslas, they're a software company that makes hardware on the side. And participates in hacker challenges, offering cars to the winners.
No one actually wants cars with no computers, they just think they do because they don't realise how much computers do, like reduce the amount of wires by 10x, and output error messages on the level of a crappy microcontroller instead of maybe a flashing light if you're lucky
No, I really want a car with no computers. I want analog gauges, a real gear selector lever, and switches and knobs for other accessories. A tactile environment that doesn't demand my visual focus to use is what I want. I have no need for a computer in my car, and to the extent I do, my phone is perfectly capable.
No engine control, no brake control, no airbags, no power steering, no engine starter, no automatic windows, no intermittent wipers, no central locking, no alarm system, no automatic lights
- Engine control - unnecessary, cars ran for 100 years without it.
- Brakes work perfectly well without computers.
- Airbags don't need computers, they work perfectly well by mechanical means.
- Power steering works perfectly without computers or any electrics at all. Every car I've ever owned had mechanical power steering without any fancy electroics including my latest one. Why tamper with something that works perfectly well?
- Engine starter? Cars have starter motors since just after the hand crank ers, computers were still nearly 100 years away when starter motors were introduced.
- Automatic windows are a damn menace, they are reliably unreliable. When one failed - fortunately the driver's side - I had my garage man retrofit a traditional hand windup one. On the three remaining windows I got him to isolate them so they only worked on their individual switches.
- Mechanical intermittent wipers have been around since at least WWII. No computers or electronics to go wrong and complicate matters.
- Central locking on my last two cars has been a disaster. You obviously have never experienced a situation where the locking gets out of sync and some doors remain unlocked - unlock the others and then the unlocked ones lock and vice versa.
- Where I live alarm systems are likely to get you a brick through your windscreen - not from burglars but from annoyed residents who are fed up with car alarm noise.
- Automatic lights are another menace, you often can't control them, they switch off when you want to leave the lights and so on. (It seems to me that the designers of these systems never anticipate what we drivers actually need. Perhaps they only test them in the most tame and predictable environments.)
All this gumph is unnecessary, it makes the car less reliable and more expensive to buy and fix. Moreover, they're impossible to fix when you're in places where there's no service mechanic or garage (out on the open road for instance - I've some excellent instances from long trips 3,000 - 4,000 miles anf of cars in convoy on rough roads. Cars with all these unnecessary gadgets were, without fail, the first to break down. And they were a disaster because none of us techies could improvise in the usual manner that we could do with a more traditional car, often we could be stranded for days whilst waiting a tow truck to come from hundreds of miles away. What's more that's hellishly expensive.
You people are just gadget mad.
- Brakes work perfectly well without computers.
- Airbags don't need computers, they work perfectly well by mechanical means.
- Power steering works perfectly without computers or any electrics at all. Every car I've ever owned had mechanical power steering without any fancy electroics including my latest one. Why tamper with something that works perfectly well?
- Engine starter? Cars have starter motors since just after the hand crank ers, computers were still nearly 100 years away when starter motors were introduced.
- Automatic windows are a damn menace, they are reliably unreliable. When one failed - fortunately the driver's side - I had my garage man retrofit a traditional hand windup one. On the three remaining windows I got him to isolate them so they only worked on their individual switches.
- Mechanical intermittent wipers have been around since at least WWII. No computers or electronics to go wrong and complicate matters.
- Central locking on my last two cars has been a disaster. You obviously have never experienced a situation where the locking gets out of sync and some doors remain unlocked - unlock the others and then the unlocked ones lock and vice versa.
- Where I live alarm systems are likely to get you a brick through your windscreen - not from burglars but from annoyed residents who are fed up with car alarm noise.
- Automatic lights are another menace, you often can't control them, they switch off when you want to leave the lights and so on. (It seems to me that the designers of these systems never anticipate what we drivers actually need. Perhaps they only test them in the most tame and predictable environments.)
All this gumph is unnecessary, it makes the car less reliable and more expensive to buy and fix. Moreover, they're impossible to fix when you're in places where there's no service mechanic or garage (out on the open road for instance - I've some excellent instances from long trips 3,000 - 4,000 miles anf of cars in convoy on rough roads. Cars with all these unnecessary gadgets were, without fail, the first to break down. And they were a disaster because none of us techies could improvise in the usual manner that we could do with a more traditional car, often we could be stranded for days whilst waiting a tow truck to come from hundreds of miles away. What's more that's hellishly expensive.
You people are just gadget mad.
Engines that massively polluted did.
Brakes without traction control are worse
Airbags without computers go off too often
Power steering driven by a pump and a belt was very inefficient, more fuel wasted
Weirdly you don't hear alarms going off much now, wonder if they're smarter somehow....
Cars are much more reliable these days
"in the 1960s and 1970s, the typical car reached its end of life around 100,000 miles (160,000 km), but due to manufacturing improvements in the 2000s, such as tighter tolerances and better anti-corrosion coatings, the typical car lasts closer to 200,000 miles (320,000 km)"
Not sure why you think a load of extra moving parts is going to be more reliable than some solid state electronics.
"in the 1960s and 1970s, the typical car reached its end of life around 100,000 miles (160,000 km), but due to manufacturing improvements in the 2000s, such as tighter tolerances and better anti-corrosion coatings, the typical car lasts closer to 200,000 miles (320,000 km)"
Not sure why you think a load of extra moving parts is going to be more reliable than some solid state electronics.
"Not sure why you think a load of extra moving parts is going to be more reliable than some solid state electronics.“
Because cars can go anywhere including right outside tow truck range especially where I live. Here, being rescued can be days away. Then there's the adverse conditions, temperatures well in excess of 40° C and from my bitter experience, the electronics fail much more frequently under these harsh conditions than do the mechanics.
Then there's the issue of make-do. When one is hundreds of miles from anywhere, one can often improvise a mechanical repair whereas it's nigh on impossible to quickly sort out an electronics problem (unless it's trivial).
I recall being in a convoy of four cars in central Australia when the computer failed in the one and only Volvo in the group. What an unholy mess that was. None of us could fix it.
Note, everyone in the convoy was skilled in electronics (we were all radio amateurs on a field trip) and almost everyone had a full-time professional job in electronics. We even had lots of electronics test equipment as well as various electronic components with us - semiconductors, resistors, capacitors etc., as they were to service our HF transceivers when they failed.
That's just one instance albeit one of the worst cases.
My car chucked a universal joint on the same trip and although very inconvenient, we fixed it on the spot. Similar repairs were made on the spot when my petrol pump was ripped clean off the bottom of my car by huge ruts in the road.
From what you've said, I'd guess you live in a temperate climate in the suburbs of a city and only a few kilometers from a service garage.
The fact is, electronics and harsh environmental conditions (high thermal cycling) are not good bedfellows. Moreover, most electronics faults are thermally related (caused by thermal stress). I know firsthand as I ran the electronics department of a large corporation for years, before that I worked in the prototyping (design) department of a large US corporation designing professional electronic (not domestic stuff).
First rule of design: 'keep it simple stupid'.
__
Edit: "1970s, the typical car reached its end of life around 100,000 miles (160,000 km)."
Uh? When I was younger all I could afford were cars with over 150k on the clock - and that's miles not kms - and I usually drove them to about 300k. The usual reason for getting rid of them was was rust - not because of mechanical problems. Sure, there were 'junk' cars around but you'd have to be mad to buy one.
One final point, around the time the Volvo broke down I was averaging 44,000 miles per year (~70,000 km/yr).
Because cars can go anywhere including right outside tow truck range especially where I live. Here, being rescued can be days away. Then there's the adverse conditions, temperatures well in excess of 40° C and from my bitter experience, the electronics fail much more frequently under these harsh conditions than do the mechanics.
Then there's the issue of make-do. When one is hundreds of miles from anywhere, one can often improvise a mechanical repair whereas it's nigh on impossible to quickly sort out an electronics problem (unless it's trivial).
I recall being in a convoy of four cars in central Australia when the computer failed in the one and only Volvo in the group. What an unholy mess that was. None of us could fix it.
Note, everyone in the convoy was skilled in electronics (we were all radio amateurs on a field trip) and almost everyone had a full-time professional job in electronics. We even had lots of electronics test equipment as well as various electronic components with us - semiconductors, resistors, capacitors etc., as they were to service our HF transceivers when they failed.
That's just one instance albeit one of the worst cases.
My car chucked a universal joint on the same trip and although very inconvenient, we fixed it on the spot. Similar repairs were made on the spot when my petrol pump was ripped clean off the bottom of my car by huge ruts in the road.
From what you've said, I'd guess you live in a temperate climate in the suburbs of a city and only a few kilometers from a service garage.
The fact is, electronics and harsh environmental conditions (high thermal cycling) are not good bedfellows. Moreover, most electronics faults are thermally related (caused by thermal stress). I know firsthand as I ran the electronics department of a large corporation for years, before that I worked in the prototyping (design) department of a large US corporation designing professional electronic (not domestic stuff).
First rule of design: 'keep it simple stupid'.
__
Edit: "1970s, the typical car reached its end of life around 100,000 miles (160,000 km)."
Uh? When I was younger all I could afford were cars with over 150k on the clock - and that's miles not kms - and I usually drove them to about 300k. The usual reason for getting rid of them was was rust - not because of mechanical problems. Sure, there were 'junk' cars around but you'd have to be mad to buy one.
One final point, around the time the Volvo broke down I was averaging 44,000 miles per year (~70,000 km/yr).
Ah, you are the 0.0001%, have to build your own cars then, can't be that hard.
As for typical cars, that's why it's bad to base your theories on personal experience.
Should the computers and software be open and fixable though? Yes
As for typical cars, that's why it's bad to base your theories on personal experience.
Should the computers and software be open and fixable though? Yes
- Engine control - unnecessary, cars ran for 100 years without it.
- Brakes work perfectly well without computers.
- Airbags don't need computers, they work perfectly well by mechanical means.
- Power steering works perfectly without computers or any electrical stuff at all. Every car I've ever owned had mechanical power steering without any fancy electroics including my latest one. Why tamper with something that works perfectly well?
- Engine starter? Cars have had starter motors since just after the hand crank era, computers were still nearly 100 years away when starter motors were introduced.
- Automatic windows are a damn menace, they are reliably unreliable. When one failed - fortunately the driver's side - I had my garage man retrofit a traditional hand windup one. On the three remaining windows I got him isolate them so they only worked on their own individual switches.
- Mechanical intermittent wipers have been around since at least WWII. No computers or electronics to go wrong and complicate matters.
- Central locking on my last two cars has been a disaster. You obviously have never experienced a situation where the locking gets out of sync and some doors remain unlocked - unlock the others and then the unlocked ones lock and vice versa. It's a nightmare, any attempt to properly lock the car fails.
- Where I live alarm system are likely to get a brick through your windscreen - not from burglars but rather from annoyed residents who are fed up with car alarm noise.
- Automatic lights are another menace, you often can't control them, they switch off when you want to leave the lights and so on. The people who design and program their operation clearly don't use them except in the most tame surroundings.
All this gumph is unnecessary, it makes car less reliable and more expensive to both purchase and fix - and they're impossible to fix when you're in places where there's no service mechanic or garage (out on the open road for instance - I've some excellent instances from long trips 3,000 - 4,000 miles of cars in convoy on rough roads. Cars with all these unnecessary gadgets were, without fail, the first to break down. And they were a disaster because none of us techies could improvise in the usual manner as we could do with a more traditional car. Often we could be stranded for days whilst we waited for a tow truck to come from hundreds of miles away. Moreover, that's hellishly expensive.
You people are just gadget mad.
- Brakes work perfectly well without computers.
- Airbags don't need computers, they work perfectly well by mechanical means.
- Power steering works perfectly without computers or any electrical stuff at all. Every car I've ever owned had mechanical power steering without any fancy electroics including my latest one. Why tamper with something that works perfectly well?
- Engine starter? Cars have had starter motors since just after the hand crank era, computers were still nearly 100 years away when starter motors were introduced.
- Automatic windows are a damn menace, they are reliably unreliable. When one failed - fortunately the driver's side - I had my garage man retrofit a traditional hand windup one. On the three remaining windows I got him isolate them so they only worked on their own individual switches.
- Mechanical intermittent wipers have been around since at least WWII. No computers or electronics to go wrong and complicate matters.
- Central locking on my last two cars has been a disaster. You obviously have never experienced a situation where the locking gets out of sync and some doors remain unlocked - unlock the others and then the unlocked ones lock and vice versa. It's a nightmare, any attempt to properly lock the car fails.
- Where I live alarm system are likely to get a brick through your windscreen - not from burglars but rather from annoyed residents who are fed up with car alarm noise.
- Automatic lights are another menace, you often can't control them, they switch off when you want to leave the lights and so on. The people who design and program their operation clearly don't use them except in the most tame surroundings.
All this gumph is unnecessary, it makes car less reliable and more expensive to both purchase and fix - and they're impossible to fix when you're in places where there's no service mechanic or garage (out on the open road for instance - I've some excellent instances from long trips 3,000 - 4,000 miles of cars in convoy on rough roads. Cars with all these unnecessary gadgets were, without fail, the first to break down. And they were a disaster because none of us techies could improvise in the usual manner as we could do with a more traditional car. Often we could be stranded for days whilst we waited for a tow truck to come from hundreds of miles away. Moreover, that's hellishly expensive.
You people are just gadget mad.
> Most people outside of this group want these features
Most people have little idea what features they have, besides the obvious ones. Read through some of the features listed for a car - some aren't even explained.
Most people have little idea what features they have, besides the obvious ones. Read through some of the features listed for a car - some aren't even explained.
Well-built cars are fundamentally durable, long-lasting machines.
So of course manufacturers are eager to sneak in anything to make a car seem "worn out" and in need of replacement sooner than later.
What's frustrating is there seems to be no shortage of willing buyers eating this crap up, apparently looking forward to replacing their vehicles in lockstep with their other consumer electronics.
So of course manufacturers are eager to sneak in anything to make a car seem "worn out" and in need of replacement sooner than later.
What's frustrating is there seems to be no shortage of willing buyers eating this crap up, apparently looking forward to replacing their vehicles in lockstep with their other consumer electronics.
> I wonder how well my car will age when miscellaneous sensor all over the car start failing.
That's just it, the tech is making the cars less reliable. Will all of these bespoke parts be available in 10, 15, 20 years? I would hate to have to dispose of a working car because the dead now obsolete chip on the bespoke LCD dash module shaped like the cars dashboard is no longer in production. I had cars who's odometers didn't roll 100k miles until they hit 15 years. I have a 2002 van that has 102k miles on it.
> Now as others have mentioned, these unwanted smart features might actually be required by law/regulation/tax-credit/legal-dept, so it's not bad programming/design but "design by committee" that's dooming our chances of a good dumb car.
None of that requires LCD dash boards, tablets, touch screens, phone home, internet, subscriptions, etc. Everyone is just high on the concept of rent seeking and perpetual cash flows. They hate the fact that you buy something and walk away from them. They want you on a leash like a dog and they've been doing a damn fine job leash training you and your children.
Opinion: Mandated lane keeping and other lane keeping/self driving safety garbage is papering over the failure of the human race to govern itself. The people who I see swerving all over the road are either selfish assholes who insist on playing with phones/speeding while piloting a 3000+ lb machine or people who should not be driving at all. Now we have TV commercials that show people diddling touch screens while driving. We have failed.
That's just it, the tech is making the cars less reliable. Will all of these bespoke parts be available in 10, 15, 20 years? I would hate to have to dispose of a working car because the dead now obsolete chip on the bespoke LCD dash module shaped like the cars dashboard is no longer in production. I had cars who's odometers didn't roll 100k miles until they hit 15 years. I have a 2002 van that has 102k miles on it.
> Now as others have mentioned, these unwanted smart features might actually be required by law/regulation/tax-credit/legal-dept, so it's not bad programming/design but "design by committee" that's dooming our chances of a good dumb car.
None of that requires LCD dash boards, tablets, touch screens, phone home, internet, subscriptions, etc. Everyone is just high on the concept of rent seeking and perpetual cash flows. They hate the fact that you buy something and walk away from them. They want you on a leash like a dog and they've been doing a damn fine job leash training you and your children.
Opinion: Mandated lane keeping and other lane keeping/self driving safety garbage is papering over the failure of the human race to govern itself. The people who I see swerving all over the road are either selfish assholes who insist on playing with phones/speeding while piloting a 3000+ lb machine or people who should not be driving at all. Now we have TV commercials that show people diddling touch screens while driving. We have failed.
Note that "cars are getting less reliable" is a gut feeling that many people have, but largely isn't backed by real metrics.
When's the last time you saw a broken-down car by the side of the road, and is this happening more or less often than 20 years ago?
Do you think cars require more or less upkeep and maintenance than 20 years ago?
Yes, cars do have some new components that have introduced new failure modes, and some of those may be doing worse than others. But as a whole, cars have improved.
When's the last time you saw a broken-down car by the side of the road, and is this happening more or less often than 20 years ago?
Do you think cars require more or less upkeep and maintenance than 20 years ago?
Yes, cars do have some new components that have introduced new failure modes, and some of those may be doing worse than others. But as a whole, cars have improved.
> When's the last time you saw a broken-down car by the side of the road, and is this happening more or less often than 20 years ago?
The same? Cars 20yrs ago were already very reliable compared to say 30-40yrs ago. And breakdowns observed 20 yrs ago were mostly cars that were aleady old then.
If I see a broken down car now (which is rare anyway), it could almost be age from 30+yrs old to new. There doesn't seem to be a pattern with age. Adjusting for 20yr old cars having 20yrs more wear and tear, you would expect a pattern correlating with age. I wonder what todays cars are going to seem like in 20yrs?
Note: I'm not in the US or Europe, so my observations of the car population may be different to those that are. My cars have usually been 15-20 yrs old Japanese models, bought cheaply 2nd hand, mostly neglected, but still very reliable machines.
The same? Cars 20yrs ago were already very reliable compared to say 30-40yrs ago. And breakdowns observed 20 yrs ago were mostly cars that were aleady old then.
If I see a broken down car now (which is rare anyway), it could almost be age from 30+yrs old to new. There doesn't seem to be a pattern with age. Adjusting for 20yr old cars having 20yrs more wear and tear, you would expect a pattern correlating with age. I wonder what todays cars are going to seem like in 20yrs?
Note: I'm not in the US or Europe, so my observations of the car population may be different to those that are. My cars have usually been 15-20 yrs old Japanese models, bought cheaply 2nd hand, mostly neglected, but still very reliable machines.
> Note that "cars are getting less reliable" is a gut feeling that many people have, but largely isn't backed by real metrics.
Yup. Just like my friends 2010 VW which went into limp home mode after he drove through a puddle a year after he bought it. Dealer had to replace some doodad to the tune of $500 for the part. He then bought a Mercedes in 2013 that started to kill the battery after a month because the park lamps refused to turn off. Mercedes could not figure out the issue even after swapping so they removed the park lamps. All caused by fragile electronics. Meanwhile I plowed the 2002 chevy van through a deep puddle once (being young and dumb) and it coughed, sputtered but kept going until it dried off and then resumed purring.
> Do you think cars require more or less upkeep and maintenance than 20 years ago?
Since I do my own upkeep including engine and tranny swaps (project vehicles), the upkeep is pretty much the same. Check/change oil, and check/top off fluids 4 times year. Then brakes and tires. Worst case check plugs and so on after 50k but those show up as misfires that are easy to feel. All the vehicles I have experience with are 1995 and newer with some 1980's trucks and vans thrown in.
You also have to account for a lot of wear and tear that came from fuel changes. When lead was eliminated the leaded cars suffered from premature ring and piston failure. And when we phased out MTBE we also suffered as alcohol was attacking metal and rubber components with oxidation causing failures. So these changes might make older cars seem less reliable but the fact is we forced them to be that way (for the better).
Yup. Just like my friends 2010 VW which went into limp home mode after he drove through a puddle a year after he bought it. Dealer had to replace some doodad to the tune of $500 for the part. He then bought a Mercedes in 2013 that started to kill the battery after a month because the park lamps refused to turn off. Mercedes could not figure out the issue even after swapping so they removed the park lamps. All caused by fragile electronics. Meanwhile I plowed the 2002 chevy van through a deep puddle once (being young and dumb) and it coughed, sputtered but kept going until it dried off and then resumed purring.
> Do you think cars require more or less upkeep and maintenance than 20 years ago?
Since I do my own upkeep including engine and tranny swaps (project vehicles), the upkeep is pretty much the same. Check/change oil, and check/top off fluids 4 times year. Then brakes and tires. Worst case check plugs and so on after 50k but those show up as misfires that are easy to feel. All the vehicles I have experience with are 1995 and newer with some 1980's trucks and vans thrown in.
You also have to account for a lot of wear and tear that came from fuel changes. When lead was eliminated the leaded cars suffered from premature ring and piston failure. And when we phased out MTBE we also suffered as alcohol was attacking metal and rubber components with oxidation causing failures. So these changes might make older cars seem less reliable but the fact is we forced them to be that way (for the better).
I think overall you're right but I suspect the proliferation of luxury electronic features has subjected higher class slices of the population to more failures than they saw before. In 2004 these people bought Camrys and drove them uneventfully. The base car hasn't changed but now that car has half a dozen switches and motors in both front seats the failure of any one of which requires it to be fixed. If the lever in your '04 was finicky you just pulled/pushed slightly harder and were not the wiser.
Already, around 5 years ago, I had a small repair (tranny fluid filler tube replacement) done at a transmission shop. When I arrived, I walked in to hear the owner cursing Ford, because the part required for a 10-year-old Mustang was no longer made by Ford, but also not yet made by any aftermarket. The shop had to custom-fabricate the part themselves.
This will only get worse. Look at how many smartphones don't get security patches after 2 years.
This will only get worse. Look at how many smartphones don't get security patches after 2 years.
That's a bit much.
Not everyone has the aptitude for good, calm driving. That might make them excel in other areas of life, just not at driving safely in traffic. Has humanity failed because we provided them transportation? No, but we have an open challenge to provide transport and allow these (really, all) people the freedom to mentally engage with something else that they deem more important than the chore of driving safely.
Not everyone has the aptitude for good, calm driving. That might make them excel in other areas of life, just not at driving safely in traffic. Has humanity failed because we provided them transportation? No, but we have an open challenge to provide transport and allow these (really, all) people the freedom to mentally engage with something else that they deem more important than the chore of driving safely.
> Opinion: Mandated lane keeping and other lane keeping/self driving safety garbage is papering over the failure of the human race to govern itself.
When you're done riding that high horse, could you come up with a plan to actually make it stop? Preferably one that can't be dismissed as papering over the failure of the human race to govern itself like self-driving features, or dismissed as an authoritarian power-grab like putting fifty times as many traffic cops on the road, or dismissed as a dream like leveling LA and starting over from scratch with a bike-friendly layout.
When you're done riding that high horse, could you come up with a plan to actually make it stop? Preferably one that can't be dismissed as papering over the failure of the human race to govern itself like self-driving features, or dismissed as an authoritarian power-grab like putting fifty times as many traffic cops on the road, or dismissed as a dream like leveling LA and starting over from scratch with a bike-friendly layout.
Backup cameras are mandated in the US now, so that requires an LCD screen on the dash.
Am in the only one who turns and looks back, out the window?
I had 20 plus rental cars last year and very few had tech features I would ever pay for.
Lane assist with adaptive cruise are the only notable features for long drives. I did enjoy the red dash notification Toyota has. Totally caught me off guard the first time however, I tried out the ABS.
I had 20 plus rental cars last year and very few had tech features I would ever pay for.
Lane assist with adaptive cruise are the only notable features for long drives. I did enjoy the red dash notification Toyota has. Totally caught me off guard the first time however, I tried out the ABS.
Once I got my first real backup cam, I was instantly sold. I don't blame the regulators from requiring it, because it's such a huge, obvious win. Especially in parking lots, the camera has a vantage point at the back edge of the car that no mirror will give me, so I can see someone walking or driving down the aisle before I start to pull out.
The other thing I'd like to see more or less mandated is blind spot warning. I especially like the kind that is visible to other drivers. I don't even have it on any of my cars, LOL. I just like to see it on other cars that I'm passing.
Lane assist I am ambivalent about. I had AP, it was okay. It does not drive as defensively as I do, however, which meant that it increased my tension on long drives rather than reduce it. I do like good adaptive cruise however. That means no phantom braking :).
The other thing I'd like to see more or less mandated is blind spot warning. I especially like the kind that is visible to other drivers. I don't even have it on any of my cars, LOL. I just like to see it on other cars that I'm passing.
Lane assist I am ambivalent about. I had AP, it was okay. It does not drive as defensively as I do, however, which meant that it increased my tension on long drives rather than reduce it. I do like good adaptive cruise however. That means no phantom braking :).
That is actually not as good as it sounds. Your body cannot twist a full 180 degrees, so while you can see right behind you and out the passenger side, anything coming from the drivers side is not possible to see.
It takes some getting used to, but once you learn to back via mirrors you won't want to twist around anymore. You do need to check behind the car beforehand because you cannot see directly behind you and thus might hit something on the ground. However you get much better visibility to things that are moving from the side to behind you, and that in my experience is where the danger is most of the time.
I do favor backup cameras though. They show you things you would miss either twisting to look backwards, or looking in the mirror.
It takes some getting used to, but once you learn to back via mirrors you won't want to twist around anymore. You do need to check behind the car beforehand because you cannot see directly behind you and thus might hit something on the ground. However you get much better visibility to things that are moving from the side to behind you, and that in my experience is where the danger is most of the time.
I do favor backup cameras though. They show you things you would miss either twisting to look backwards, or looking in the mirror.
Yes, I can see this. If I was ever home to drive my car, I would get used to it I guess. Just turns into a habit and a tool over time.
A child can stand behind my car and looking out the rear window I would not be able to see them. I get more visibility from my backup cameras and radar sensors on my modern cars than I did on my 2000 Accord.
No it doesnt. My subaru has it in the rear view, where it belongs.
It's nice if you don't want a touch screen, but a bigger screen makes a very noticeable difference in how usable the camera feed is.
Toyota had that when I looked at the Tundra in 2012. The image is far too small (postage stamp size) to really see what's there.
> I wonder how well my car will age when miscellaneous sensor all over the car start failing.
I predict that 50 years from now there will be more functioning cars from the 1960s than from the 2020s. With the combination of quickly obsoleting technology that won't be fixable and overly interconnected electronics that become impossible to diagnose after a while, there's not much hope for current and future cars to be anything but disposable.
Old mechanical cars though, can be kept running essentialy forever by just someone with access to a machine shop and some patience.
I predict that 50 years from now there will be more functioning cars from the 1960s than from the 2020s. With the combination of quickly obsoleting technology that won't be fixable and overly interconnected electronics that become impossible to diagnose after a while, there's not much hope for current and future cars to be anything but disposable.
Old mechanical cars though, can be kept running essentialy forever by just someone with access to a machine shop and some patience.
every month I'm breaking a sensor in my 2004 dodge. It's been about $300 every other month in mechanic fees. I've got two new ones right now. They got rid of relays and are using some kind of FET for some sensors, lights, switches. Some of the sensors are catastrophic (won't drive or drives extremely dangerous). For whatever reason dodge decided to get rid of the throttle cable and go with a two sensor and servo. If it fails, no mechanic will touch it. I took it out and cleaned it, and it just started working. Ghost in the machine.
It's really ashame that we'll never see versions of those mechanical cars combined with the manufacturing precision and quality control available today.
Sure there are one-offs and some drop-ins available, but they'll never get dialed in the way cars do after a year or two of mass production.
Sure there are one-offs and some drop-ins available, but they'll never get dialed in the way cars do after a year or two of mass production.
> It's really ashame that we'll never see versions of those mechanical cars combined with the manufacturing precision and quality control available today.
The car that makes me cry a little every time on the what-could-have-been topic is the Honda CRX HF. 54 MPG in 1988. Most cars can't match that today over 30 years later.
If Honda was allowed to do a modern version with some use of carbon fiber for even more lightness and all the advances in fuel injection tuning and engine manufacturing, surely we could have a ~70+ MPG CRX by now.
The car that makes me cry a little every time on the what-could-have-been topic is the Honda CRX HF. 54 MPG in 1988. Most cars can't match that today over 30 years later.
If Honda was allowed to do a modern version with some use of carbon fiber for even more lightness and all the advances in fuel injection tuning and engine manufacturing, surely we could have a ~70+ MPG CRX by now.
adding a backup cam is like $20, dude. it cost me a little more to put Bluetooth, Apple CarPlay, front and rear dashcams, and a touchscreen into my 97 Honda, but it still wasn't an unreasonable amount. my other car's a 97 BMW (with far less miles on it, well under 100K) and I'll do a slightly more deluxe version of all the same upgrades once the weather gets nice.
of course both my cars have power windows. the Honda interior is nothing to write home about but the BMW's all leather and wood. neither has heated seats, but I don't really need them where I live, and if I did, I'd just buy them on eBay.
it'll get harder in future, of course, but for now, if you want to skip all the excess computation in modern cars, all you have to do is know a little bit about cars. it's not rocket science.
what I'm really looking forward to is when electric vehicle aftermarket conversion kits become more common. you can find them for certain models already but it's very early days.
of course both my cars have power windows. the Honda interior is nothing to write home about but the BMW's all leather and wood. neither has heated seats, but I don't really need them where I live, and if I did, I'd just buy them on eBay.
it'll get harder in future, of course, but for now, if you want to skip all the excess computation in modern cars, all you have to do is know a little bit about cars. it's not rocket science.
what I'm really looking forward to is when electric vehicle aftermarket conversion kits become more common. you can find them for certain models already but it's very early days.
I looked at new Audi’s last year, and my main thing was I want physical gauges on the dashboard. The sales guy looked at me like I was from Mars and then showed me the stripped versions (which were, I gotta say, pretty nice)
I wonder how much all the screens have contributed to the increase in accidents in the last couple years
I wonder how much all the screens have contributed to the increase in accidents in the last couple years
I went to buy a TV a couple of years ago, and I think I got that same look from the sales guy when I said I didnt want a "smart TV".
Yeah good luck you gotta pay double for that feature
Are you saying it is possible to buy a new Audi with analog gauges? Do you have any more details on that?
It's an interesting differentiation strategy though, and while cars are becoming more and more similar along some axis, there is a distinct different segmentation between manufacturers.
When shopping for minivans, they all "have" comparable features. But
Manufacturer A base model has no advanced safety features; you need to buy $10k of leather seats and chrome highlights to get them.
Manufacturer B offers a $2k safety pack to any and all levels.
Manufacturer C simply has those same safety features across all levels.
Similarly, features such as Android/Apple Car/Auto play; or Sirius XM; etc. The bundling strategy is completely different across manufacturers.
For us, the last three practical family cars we bought (as opposed to cars of desire:), were hugely influenced by which manufacturer had a bundling/segmentation/feature strategy that worked for us.
When shopping for minivans, they all "have" comparable features. But
Manufacturer A base model has no advanced safety features; you need to buy $10k of leather seats and chrome highlights to get them.
Manufacturer B offers a $2k safety pack to any and all levels.
Manufacturer C simply has those same safety features across all levels.
Similarly, features such as Android/Apple Car/Auto play; or Sirius XM; etc. The bundling strategy is completely different across manufacturers.
For us, the last three practical family cars we bought (as opposed to cars of desire:), were hugely influenced by which manufacturer had a bundling/segmentation/feature strategy that worked for us.
Same, I found a Rx350 to be cheaper than a highlander for this reason when I bought one used many years ago
I can only imagine that there is some financial interest here. By forcing people to bundle in high-margin techno-junk, they can raise the overall profit margins cars relative to cost of living / inflation. That, and/or maybe there are high-value corporate partnerships involved.
You're right, car dealers/manufacturers do use options packages to increase profit margins by bundling less popular high margin features with more popular ones. The number of brands that let you spec out a new car using a truly a-la-carte selection of options has shrunk, and is now mostly confined to the ultra high end brands (which make huge margins on everything anyway).
However, it's not a new phenomenon, manufacturers and dealers have done this with "luxury" or "sport" features for a long time. This has usually meant adding stuff like alloy wheels, different interior trims, better speakers etc. The difference now is the huge amount of complexity that modern "smart" features bring.
However, it's not a new phenomenon, manufacturers and dealers have done this with "luxury" or "sport" features for a long time. This has usually meant adding stuff like alloy wheels, different interior trims, better speakers etc. The difference now is the huge amount of complexity that modern "smart" features bring.
The old notion that sensors always go bad in cars was never really accurate. People would see a check engine light, get the code read and see it says "O2 sensor" and replace the O2 sensor. Then the code happens again, they say "That damned O2 sensor on this stupid car" and replace the O2 sensor again. Rinse and repeat until you get a new car.
However, I'm willing to bet the O2 sensor was actually giving the correct read and was working fine, and the source of the issue is probably well upstream of the O2 sensor.
However, I'm willing to bet the O2 sensor was actually giving the correct read and was working fine, and the source of the issue is probably well upstream of the O2 sensor.
I saw an O2 sensor go bad in my car. Only difference comparing to a brand new one was that the reading was changing very slowly.
No check engine light though.
No check engine light though.
> if you want more a "dumb" car (UX occurs primarily outside of a touchscreen, no internet, no geolocation) you lose all potential for any nice non-smart features. So no heated/powered seats, no power windows,
You can have all that when you buy a "good" base and get your features on the aftermarket. For the definition of "good" also consult your mechanic, he should know which cars are easy/nice to work with. I've been looking at reliable 4x4s that I can trust for daily off-road use in the outskirts of the Sahara and I currently favor a UAZ (20k Euro) base and modifications for 5k Euro (more gas tanks, proper seats, navigation and entertainment system).
You can have all that when you buy a "good" base and get your features on the aftermarket. For the definition of "good" also consult your mechanic, he should know which cars are easy/nice to work with. I've been looking at reliable 4x4s that I can trust for daily off-road use in the outskirts of the Sahara and I currently favor a UAZ (20k Euro) base and modifications for 5k Euro (more gas tanks, proper seats, navigation and entertainment system).
I did sort of miss losing blue tooth when switching to a newer work truck from a muscle car that had it. But it hasn't been an issue. I don't miss any of the other feature enough to pay for them (no key fob, no power seats, etc; but it has power windows and locks, so that's nice).
The quality of tactile representation and response on the knobs/buttons are not as good as my old 89 caprice was. But that's true of all cars today.
The quality of tactile representation and response on the knobs/buttons are not as good as my old 89 caprice was. But that's true of all cars today.
If you have a cigarette lighter that you use as a USB charger, they make cigarette lighter bluetooth-to-radio adapters which also have usb slots for about $20. Set your car radio and the adapter to the same frequency, and your car now has bluetooth.
Mine's on a used Fit. Lighter port has a little 2x USB port permanently plugged in. One USB to phone's charging cable, the second powers a little BT receiver (and that has a 3.5mm audio out to the front input of the basic "dumb" factory stereo).
I did have to spend 5 min setting up some little adhesive wire straps to bundle the little cables out of the way, but total cost was maybe $25-35 for the USB power adapter and Bluetooth rx. Granted, it wouldn't have been necessary if so many phones didn't ditch the dedicated audio output, but at least it wasn't an expensive workaround.
I did have to spend 5 min setting up some little adhesive wire straps to bundle the little cables out of the way, but total cost was maybe $25-35 for the USB power adapter and Bluetooth rx. Granted, it wouldn't have been necessary if so many phones didn't ditch the dedicated audio output, but at least it wasn't an expensive workaround.
It’s not some grand conspiracy lol, it’s just that they bundle features together to save on costs. Henry Ford did this a century ago by only offering the color black.
What I hate about "car discourse" like this is the apparent blindness to public transportation. Trains, bikes, buses, and street cars solve almost every problem that the author complains about.
The only outstanding problem, however, is that American infrastructure has been deliberately designed solely around the car. Those who suggest alternative modes of public transportation are immediately written off as "impractical". Discourse ought to be centered around democratizing and diversifying the ways people can get around, not on how one ought to "make dumb cars".
The only outstanding problem, however, is that American infrastructure has been deliberately designed solely around the car. Those who suggest alternative modes of public transportation are immediately written off as "impractical". Discourse ought to be centered around democratizing and diversifying the ways people can get around, not on how one ought to "make dumb cars".
> The only outstanding problem, however, is that American infrastructure has been deliberately designed solely around the car.
The problem is that "infrastructure" doesn't just mean roads. It's where houses are. Where schools are. Where food is transported. It's where water and electrical service runs. It's how property is zoned. It's how police, fire, and hospitals are located. It's how municipalities design snow removal and garbage pickup. It's where shops and services are.
In many ways, fixing the infrastructure problem in the US means razing the whole continent and starting over.
The problem is that "infrastructure" doesn't just mean roads. It's where houses are. Where schools are. Where food is transported. It's where water and electrical service runs. It's how property is zoned. It's how police, fire, and hospitals are located. It's how municipalities design snow removal and garbage pickup. It's where shops and services are.
In many ways, fixing the infrastructure problem in the US means razing the whole continent and starting over.
> In many ways, fixing the infrastructure problem in the US means razing the whole continent and starting over.
In some places, particularly cities designed around cars (i.e. the last 100 years). Other cities just need things to be upgraded. E.g. I recently moved to Pittsburgh. It's pretty dense in terms of housing and infrastructure--not suburban with big lawns. That's partly because it's hilly. Around here the investment needs to be in fixing bridges and roads, adding some trams (they used to have them!), and maybe tunnels. Also, burying the power lines wouldn't be a bad idea.
On most days I like the idea of razing things to the ground, but probably not around here. We need to actually look to the past in some areas and add the appropriate future, as opposed to nuking and paving.
In some places, particularly cities designed around cars (i.e. the last 100 years). Other cities just need things to be upgraded. E.g. I recently moved to Pittsburgh. It's pretty dense in terms of housing and infrastructure--not suburban with big lawns. That's partly because it's hilly. Around here the investment needs to be in fixing bridges and roads, adding some trams (they used to have them!), and maybe tunnels. Also, burying the power lines wouldn't be a bad idea.
On most days I like the idea of razing things to the ground, but probably not around here. We need to actually look to the past in some areas and add the appropriate future, as opposed to nuking and paving.
One problem with implementing all of those upgrades is that they will be unaffordable for the City, unless they take tax revenues from other areas. But those other areas have their own crumbling infrastructure, so “upgrade” is not a solution that can be applied everywhere equally.
One thing I've learned over the years is that fixing or upgrading something is an order of magnitude more time but an order of magnitude cheaper in materials/energy. This applies at many scales. Time means jobs and expertise. Upgrading doesn't scale, which is awesome. This is because fixing or upgrading stuff is essentially always a custom job. You can't outsource the maintenance of the Golden Gate bridge to China. It's gotta be done locally.
Fixing requires people to assess and evaluate the specific needs of a situation, engineer and design solutions, and then deploy them. That drives an engineering and problem-solving, educated populace full of professionals, rather than a machine that cranks out endless, throwaway garbage. America has strayed from engineering and fixing towards "scale"--but mostly scaling the last part, the deployment. It's short-term thinking. It's a pervasive baseline mindset shift that has happened because of bad accounting centered around dollar costs and not societal costs.
Fixing requires people to assess and evaluate the specific needs of a situation, engineer and design solutions, and then deploy them. That drives an engineering and problem-solving, educated populace full of professionals, rather than a machine that cranks out endless, throwaway garbage. America has strayed from engineering and fixing towards "scale"--but mostly scaling the last part, the deployment. It's short-term thinking. It's a pervasive baseline mindset shift that has happened because of bad accounting centered around dollar costs and not societal costs.
And they’re in this predicament precisely because they built unaffordable car-first infrastructure in the first place. Saying that they can’t afford the more cost-effective option (walk, bike, tram) is just icing on the cake.
> Unaffordable for the City
Isn't this the city that gave a few hundred million away from it's earmarked infrastructure and maintenance budge to the police department over the past half decade?
Isn't this the city that gave a few hundred million away from it's earmarked infrastructure and maintenance budge to the police department over the past half decade?
This is pretty much what the US did to itself in the first place - bulldozed half the cities in the country to make them car centric. There’s no reason you can’t do the same thing in reverse. Buildings are not actually all that permanent (especially in the US where in most of the country they appear to be made out of wood & plaster).
Very few houses in the US have plaster, unless they're over 70 years old.
There's a lot of houses that were built around the 50s
where do i sign up?
So we should redesign all streets and revitalize and redesign all public transportation systems before we can even talk about not making all cars operate like iPads (i.e. like they operated 10 years ago)?
If I complain that beef from a small oligopoly of suppliers is contaminated with E. Coli, will you recommend that we talk about turning the entire world vegan first?
edit: I do not own a car and have never had a driver's license. Your values are laudable, but are unrelated to the story.
If I complain that beef from a small oligopoly of suppliers is contaminated with E. Coli, will you recommend that we talk about turning the entire world vegan first?
edit: I do not own a car and have never had a driver's license. Your values are laudable, but are unrelated to the story.
Also people on HN do not know or turn a blind eye that millions of people drive cars in EU that has really good public transportation.
There are 292 million registered cars in the EU (2019 data).
There are 292 million registered cars in the EU (2019 data).
I would absolutely love to ride a bike or say, roller skate to work, but as i live in a stroad infested car dependent mess of a town, that is sadly impractical at best and outright deadly at worst.
I share the same sentiment. Something I've realized recently is that people who complain about car-centrism (myself) often fail to identify ways to start solving these problems. To remedy this, I've been thinking of writing a set of practical posts, sort of a how-to, in which I explore ways to solve these problems. Is that something that would interest you?
I would be interested.
I've also been contemplating how to use my skill set to further decrease our dependence on car centric infrastructure, or help others engage in reducing it.
There seems to be a very large community of people in the US who are opposed to more cars. /r/fuckcars has gained a large following rather quickly. Clearly there is demand, but how do we enable people to start making change? Money and NIMBYs are hard to challenge single handedly.
I've also been contemplating how to use my skill set to further decrease our dependence on car centric infrastructure, or help others engage in reducing it.
There seems to be a very large community of people in the US who are opposed to more cars. /r/fuckcars has gained a large following rather quickly. Clearly there is demand, but how do we enable people to start making change? Money and NIMBYs are hard to challenge single handedly.
I'm quite curious to see what you would have to say! If you do this, please consider commenting again here so I can find it.
I do not like to ride a bike at 0 °C. Buses are fine, waiting for the bus at 0 °C not so. But yeah, owning a car which is only used 1% of it's lifetime is pretty laughable and actually prohibitive.
What's wrong with riding a bike in 0 °C weather? When dressed for the weather riding in the cold weather can be quite enjoyable as long as the roads are clear or your bike has appropriate tires.
> When dressed for the weather riding in the cold weather can be quite enjoyable
Not as enjoyable as sitting on my heated leather seat, sipping coffee, listning to an audiobook and moving my right foot back and forth between the the accelerator and brake while my wipers and heater keep the sleet off the windshield.
Not as enjoyable as sitting on my heated leather seat, sipping coffee, listning to an audiobook and moving my right foot back and forth between the the accelerator and brake while my wipers and heater keep the sleet off the windshield.
Points like the above is pretty much why these sorts of ideas are a dead end in a place with disposable income.
If you objectively think that riding a bicycle with two sets of clothes on your back in the dead of winter is as convenient as driving, you've are either delusional or have never actually been inside of an automobile.
If you objectively think that riding a bicycle with two sets of clothes on your back in the dead of winter is as convenient as driving, you've are either delusional or have never actually been inside of an automobile.
They're also dead ends where you already assume one car per adult. Dropping below that number is intimidating in most American settings, but changes the whole mindset.
If you objectively see convenience in spending 50k on a car, 30k on a parking spot, and 100/mo for insurance just to be able to pay other marginal costs to be able to go to a store and avoid exercise in the morning, you're either delusional or have never considered how that money could buy you better conveniences.
If you objectively see convenience in spending 50k on a car, 30k on a parking spot, and 100/mo for insurance just to be able to pay other marginal costs to be able to go to a store and avoid exercise in the morning, you're either delusional or have never considered how that money could buy you better conveniences.
I've never paid anywhere close to that. Virtually no parking expenses, and I've had 3 reliable vehicles all have been around 12-15k and I've gotten 5-8 years out of them with a couple major repairs. Also the grocery store is very far away and dangerous to bike towards, and I would have to rig my bike for storage. American stores are also geared for bulk larger purchases and you save a substantial amount of money, and even if you for simple things like toilet paper or paper towels.
I never claimed riding a bicycle was as convenient as driving, only that riding in 0C weather is quite comfortable. It many ways I prefer it to riding when it's really hot out!
I'd recommend anyone give it a try if there is a safe way to get to work. Especially in 0C, because it's just not that cold and you don't really need bulky layers. You can get away with just a winter coat or a warm fleece and windbreaker. I dress a little lighter than when I go downhill skiing or snowboarding.
I am still wearing a winter jacket and sometimes an extra layer when I am driving to work in the winter, so there's really no difference from that perspective.
I'd recommend anyone give it a try if there is a safe way to get to work. Especially in 0C, because it's just not that cold and you don't really need bulky layers. You can get away with just a winter coat or a warm fleece and windbreaker. I dress a little lighter than when I go downhill skiing or snowboarding.
I am still wearing a winter jacket and sometimes an extra layer when I am driving to work in the winter, so there's really no difference from that perspective.
You need some pretty thick gloves at 0°C.
Also, if you're traveling by bike in freezing weather, you have to be dressed for freezing weather, and you'll be stuck with that during the entire time you spend at your destination.
Also, if you're traveling by bike in freezing weather, you have to be dressed for freezing weather, and you'll be stuck with that during the entire time you spend at your destination.
Nah. Just dress normally and then put warm clothes on top (gloves, hat, a good coat, possibly some overtrousers for the rain) that you can remove at your destination.
Gloves needed at 0°C are reasonable. Sure, don't take gloves that let the wind go through.
I used to bike without gloves and a hat when freezing. Because I always lose them. The hands hurt, you end up being very cold. With appropriate clothes it's night and day, biking becomes enjoyable in winter.
Gloves needed at 0°C are reasonable. Sure, don't take gloves that let the wind go through.
I used to bike without gloves and a hat when freezing. Because I always lose them. The hands hurt, you end up being very cold. With appropriate clothes it's night and day, biking becomes enjoyable in winter.
> Just dress normally and then put warm clothes on top (gloves, hat, a good coat, possibly some overtrousers for the rain) that you can remove at your destination.
Great. I'm going to the mall. How do I remove my clothes while I'm there?
Great. I'm going to the mall. How do I remove my clothes while I'm there?
You put them in your backpack (or around your hips for the coat?).
Yes, you need a backpack or some sort of bag. Is it a big issue? If it's not raining you don't even need the overtrousers and the coat might as well be the one you usually wear when it's cold. This coat probably has pockets big enough that you can put the gloves and the hat in them.
Yes, you need a backpack or some sort of bag. Is it a big issue? If it's not raining you don't even need the overtrousers and the coat might as well be the one you usually wear when it's cold. This coat probably has pockets big enough that you can put the gloves and the hat in them.
Not being hungry and getting out of the elements are the most ancient goals throughout the history of humans. I think most people would want to avoid biking in 0C.
> When dressed for the weather riding in the cold weather can be quite enjoyable
Not my sense of comfort.
> as long as the roads are clear or your bike has appropriate tires.
I live in a country where we have snow in winter, at least casually. I think driving safety is severely affected when driving single-track? Wouldn't ride my motorcycle in winter either.
Not my sense of comfort.
> as long as the roads are clear or your bike has appropriate tires.
I live in a country where we have snow in winter, at least casually. I think driving safety is severely affected when driving single-track? Wouldn't ride my motorcycle in winter either.
Each to their own, of course. You have a better idea of what's safe for you.
That said I live in a snowy country and ride a bike. I absolutely wouldn't ride a motorcycle. Speed is by far the largest reason. On a bike, you can see black ice before you hit it. You can run a foot along the ground for extra traction. You can get out and walk and push your vehicle. You can just jump off if shit really hits the fan.
That said, I also ride slowly when the roads are poor.
That said I live in a snowy country and ride a bike. I absolutely wouldn't ride a motorcycle. Speed is by far the largest reason. On a bike, you can see black ice before you hit it. You can run a foot along the ground for extra traction. You can get out and walk and push your vehicle. You can just jump off if shit really hits the fan.
That said, I also ride slowly when the roads are poor.
Have you ever tried it or are you just assuming you wouldn't find it comfortable?
Where I live, it's not usually safe to ride a bike because of snow clearing. We get huge snowbanks and there is no safe place to ride. I'd be riding if I could though.
We do have off-road trails that are groomed for fat bikes that are a lot of fun. It's a nice alternative to downhill skiing or snowboarding which can get pretty pricey!
Where I live, it's not usually safe to ride a bike because of snow clearing. We get huge snowbanks and there is no safe place to ride. I'd be riding if I could though.
We do have off-road trails that are groomed for fat bikes that are a lot of fun. It's a nice alternative to downhill skiing or snowboarding which can get pretty pricey!
Good gear can make it perfectly doable, but icy roads are no fun regardless how warm you are.
Agree not safe to ride bikes...
Public transportation is awful.
My car is clean, arrives and departs on my schedule, can go nearly everywhere, and is available at my doorstep. I don't have to deal with homeless people, sick people, poop, mystery fluids, or animals. And it can take me either down the street, or hundreds of miles away.
The automobile solves my problem, public transportation doesn't.
My car is clean, arrives and departs on my schedule, can go nearly everywhere, and is available at my doorstep. I don't have to deal with homeless people, sick people, poop, mystery fluids, or animals. And it can take me either down the street, or hundreds of miles away.
The automobile solves my problem, public transportation doesn't.
I live on London where we have "good" public transport.
Yes a bus or the tube "solves" these problems of not having a crap UI, but they also introduce so many more and worse problems that don't make up for it. Expensive, inconvenient, dirty, late and/or slow, uncomfortable. And at least a car with crap Aircon controls actually has Aircon at all!
Yes a bus or the tube "solves" these problems of not having a crap UI, but they also introduce so many more and worse problems that don't make up for it. Expensive, inconvenient, dirty, late and/or slow, uncomfortable. And at least a car with crap Aircon controls actually has Aircon at all!
What!? I have friends that live in Switzerland and value having a car. Wait until people realize that Europe has millions of cars. It’s not to downplay PT, which is awesome as well but this is just a delusion.
If anything, this is a distraction from real UX issues with cars. Classic switcheroo - “Lets not focus on improving cars because public transportation”. Infuriating, as if car UI/UX wasn’t infuriating enough!
If anything, this is a distraction from real UX issues with cars. Classic switcheroo - “Lets not focus on improving cars because public transportation”. Infuriating, as if car UI/UX wasn’t infuriating enough!
Fellow European here, these threads almost universally originate from people that were born and raised in upper middle class US suburbia; there seems to be this odd narrative with that crowd that Europeans all actually prefer the inconvenience of mass transit or dealing with weather/snow/whatever because reasons.
Meanwhile in reality, diesel runs the equivalent of 8-9 dollars a gal, cars are heavily regulated (mandatory inspections, required snow tires, much more stringent licensing) and medieval city planning didn't really take parking into account...
Meanwhile in reality, diesel runs the equivalent of 8-9 dollars a gal, cars are heavily regulated (mandatory inspections, required snow tires, much more stringent licensing) and medieval city planning didn't really take parking into account...
I wish America had more bikeable cities and better public transport too, but I don't see what that has to do with the linked article. I would also really like a dumbcar.
Most people in America want to live in low-traffic suburbs, where public transport absolutely is impractical. The first step to get most people to stop having cars is to convince people that they're wrong for not wanting to raise a family in the inner city.
> Most people in America want to live in low-traffic suburbs
Most people in America also don't know of alternatives because they've been taken away. We don't have to make people want to live in the inner city. We have to show them that driving isn't the only solution to transportation problems.
If you could have a small market in a neighborhood that provides basic necessities, we could probably eliminate a lot of vehicular traffic. But zoning and parking minimums don't allow for that.
Most people in America also don't know of alternatives because they've been taken away. We don't have to make people want to live in the inner city. We have to show them that driving isn't the only solution to transportation problems.
If you could have a small market in a neighborhood that provides basic necessities, we could probably eliminate a lot of vehicular traffic. But zoning and parking minimums don't allow for that.
This is a very urban-centric point of view though. A large portion of the US doesn't live in cities. In more rural and many suburban areas biking/trains simply aren't viable.
Trains, bikes, buses, and street cars only solve urban problems.
And I know urban environments are overall better for the environment, but they're not better for people's psyche. They're crime ridden. Theyre smog ridden. Theyre awful environments to live in during a pandemic.
People were moving into cities until a pandemic struck and riots became commonplace. Then they started to leave with the speed in which they arrived.
And I know urban environments are overall better for the environment, but they're not better for people's psyche. They're crime ridden. Theyre smog ridden. Theyre awful environments to live in during a pandemic.
People were moving into cities until a pandemic struck and riots became commonplace. Then they started to leave with the speed in which they arrived.
I don't know about which city or urban environment, but my downtown area (largest city in our state), isn't crime ridden, has no smog, sure there's likely more pollution, but with the layout of our highways and the location of traffic, that's all further from houses and offices than led to believe.
The 'riots' you're thinking of took place in a rather racially segregated and historically significant part of my city that isn't downtown... Urban environments have existed for centuries, even millennia. Ancient cities were dense and had many a people within their walls.
The 'riots' you're thinking of took place in a rather racially segregated and historically significant part of my city that isn't downtown... Urban environments have existed for centuries, even millennia. Ancient cities were dense and had many a people within their walls.
I think they can also solve quite a few suburban problems. There are many examples of other countries whose suburbs are connected via public transit. And many trips can be done via bike instead of car.
Yes, but American suburbs aren't like other countries' suburbs. British suburbs, for example, are much denser and usually very walkable.
There are a few American suburbs that are well-walkable and still support automobile transport. They're just not engineered to _only_ support automotive transport. We've had them, then destroyed them.
> They're crime ridden. Theyre smog ridden. ... riots became commonplace
Where do you live?
Where do you live?
Agreed, the best way to fix our problems with cars is to invest in public transportation and shifting car users to use bikes/e-bikes.
Must consoom
Bought a Mazda CX5 a few months ago.
Thank god Mazda currently has the "driver first" mentality.
NO Touchscreen!
Main input is through a comfortable knob in front of the arm rest, where your hand naturally lands when resting.
Gauge cluster is digital, but analog type dials for spedo, etc.
AC, Power Cool/heated seats, driver assists, auto-park, all controlled via BUTTONS!
It's a modern miracle and one of the big reasons I chose to buy it over a new Tesla Model 3.
"Horse and rider" is truly a wonderful concept... Go Mazda!
Thank god Mazda currently has the "driver first" mentality.
NO Touchscreen!
Main input is through a comfortable knob in front of the arm rest, where your hand naturally lands when resting.
Gauge cluster is digital, but analog type dials for spedo, etc.
AC, Power Cool/heated seats, driver assists, auto-park, all controlled via BUTTONS!
It's a modern miracle and one of the big reasons I chose to buy it over a new Tesla Model 3.
"Horse and rider" is truly a wonderful concept... Go Mazda!
Honda has been moving in a similar direction as well it seems. Most of the Japanese marques besides Subaru have ditched all-touch layouts in favor of physical buttons due to poor focus group and customer response. The new Ford Maverick and Bronco also both come with extremely tactile interior layouts, which is a pleasant sight for touchscreen-sore eyes.
I really hope this is just another fad/trend in automotive design like 6-disc trunk CD changers or phosphor display gauges.
I really hope this is just another fad/trend in automotive design like 6-disc trunk CD changers or phosphor display gauges.
I hated that knob interface in my Mazda, and it seems less safe since I need to scroll and watch the screen to see when the item I want to click is highlighted. A touch screen seems less distracting. It's been a few years since I had it, but using it with Android Auto was super frustrating.
I grew to love the Mazda "Commander Knob" or the combo-joystick/click rotator. It felt clumsy at first, but once I got used to CarPlay's interfaces muscle memory really started kicking in and I became accustomed to feeling the number of 'clicks' to rotate to get where I needed. I primarily interact with CarPlay using Siri though.
Bought a 2016 mazda this year for exactly the same reason. Perfect combination of nice, big, well positioned LED display but no touch screen. (Maybe you can use touch screen when parked? Never tried.) It's a little slow and the media units can fail, but I'd say all the tradeoffs are very well balanced.
I have a 2019 CX-3 (dealer's loaner bought in 2020). Prior to the 2021 models, you can use Touch Screen when stopped or parked. 2021+ they disabled touchscreen completely on all models stopped or moving. I really agree with this decision.
It’s a touch screen but doesn’t work when the car is in motion unless you input the right code to get it in a developer/maintenance mode. I haven’t bothered as the knob is much more ergonomic. The software can be wonky, I have to reset the infotainment every once in a while to get Bluetooth working but overall I’m very happy with the car.
I'm hoping Mazda can catch up with an electric drive train. They have pushed ICE exceptionally far, but without an electric drive train with an ICE power plant or an entirely electric offering, I don't know if they'll up for my next consideration. I say that as a happy owner of both a Mazda CX-5 and Mazda 3. The MX-30 might be interesting, but the maturity of Toyota, Tesla, Chevy in the EV space is hard to compete with.
The MX-30 was disappointing. If they can make an electric CX-5 equivalent that would probably be my next car. I like my Mazda 3 but my partner wants something bigger/4WD as a toy hauler.
> but analog type dials for spedo
Why is this considered an upside?
When I shopped for a car, I've specifically looked for one with a simple (uncluttered) large digital number-only speedometer. Ended up buying 2013 Civic, which is still bad in other regards but got this one right, with a large digital speedometer conveniently located not behind the steering wheel but right below the windshield (less eye travel; and still in peripheral vision even when looking at the road). https://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Honda...
I can read a number in a few milliseconds, ending up with an exact reading. So, I instantly know e.g. if I'm at, below, or above the speed limit (or desired/safe speed).
All those analog gauges take me - personally - at least an order of magnitude longer to mentally process. I can get a rough idea (±5 or ±10 {mph,km/h} depending on the dials) relatively quick - but still much longer than it takes for me to digest a readily spelled out number. Or I can spend an eternity (2+ seconds) to get a more precise reading.
And it's not as if acceleration rate normally matters, so unlike some other instruments, ability to watch the speedometer needle moving doesn't make much sense to me.
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Oh, and I can't say I want a "smart" car, I just have a pet peeve about an awful (IMHO) designs of instrument clusters in most cars. It's either a bunch of round analogue gauges straight from grandpa's dream car (with special love for a huge engine rpm indicator, no matter the type of transmission - I really don't get this) or cyberpunk neon all the way with so much visual clutter and total absence of any sane color coding, and pray to manufacturer they don't decide all that stuff goes onto that giant iPad strapped somewhere next to your knee (thanks, Elon! Although, to be fair, at least it's plain, large and black on white)
Why is this considered an upside?
When I shopped for a car, I've specifically looked for one with a simple (uncluttered) large digital number-only speedometer. Ended up buying 2013 Civic, which is still bad in other regards but got this one right, with a large digital speedometer conveniently located not behind the steering wheel but right below the windshield (less eye travel; and still in peripheral vision even when looking at the road). https://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Honda...
I can read a number in a few milliseconds, ending up with an exact reading. So, I instantly know e.g. if I'm at, below, or above the speed limit (or desired/safe speed).
All those analog gauges take me - personally - at least an order of magnitude longer to mentally process. I can get a rough idea (±5 or ±10 {mph,km/h} depending on the dials) relatively quick - but still much longer than it takes for me to digest a readily spelled out number. Or I can spend an eternity (2+ seconds) to get a more precise reading.
And it's not as if acceleration rate normally matters, so unlike some other instruments, ability to watch the speedometer needle moving doesn't make much sense to me.
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Oh, and I can't say I want a "smart" car, I just have a pet peeve about an awful (IMHO) designs of instrument clusters in most cars. It's either a bunch of round analogue gauges straight from grandpa's dream car (with special love for a huge engine rpm indicator, no matter the type of transmission - I really don't get this) or cyberpunk neon all the way with so much visual clutter and total absence of any sane color coding, and pray to manufacturer they don't decide all that stuff goes onto that giant iPad strapped somewhere next to your knee (thanks, Elon! Although, to be fair, at least it's plain, large and black on white)
> Why is this considered an upside?
I agree with all the reasons given in the article - namely that it's easier to tell with your peripheral vision if a needle has moved a small amount or a big amount than it is for your brain to register the difference between 69 and 71 and then think about whether that's significant, compare it to the limit, etc.
I agree with all the reasons given in the article - namely that it's easier to tell with your peripheral vision if a needle has moved a small amount or a big amount than it is for your brain to register the difference between 69 and 71 and then think about whether that's significant, compare it to the limit, etc.
Digital readouts are the best choice when you need to know an exact value. Like the radio frequency display, since 89.7 is a different station from 89.9.
The downside of digital readouts is that they take mental processing to actively look, read and interpret. You can't notice in peripheral vision if 89.9 suddenly changed to 89.7 (ok bad example since you'd hear the radio progam change, but assuming we're talking about visual display only here).
Rate of change and peripheral vision of approximate values is where analog gauges shine. I don't care to know if speed is 36 or 37, it's more valuable to know the approximate spot where the needle is without ever having to look at it directly. Same for tachometer, there I care about rate of change and will definitely never look at it directly since as I approach redline my eyes are far ahead on the road.
The downside of digital readouts is that they take mental processing to actively look, read and interpret. You can't notice in peripheral vision if 89.9 suddenly changed to 89.7 (ok bad example since you'd hear the radio progam change, but assuming we're talking about visual display only here).
Rate of change and peripheral vision of approximate values is where analog gauges shine. I don't care to know if speed is 36 or 37, it's more valuable to know the approximate spot where the needle is without ever having to look at it directly. Same for tachometer, there I care about rate of change and will definitely never look at it directly since as I approach redline my eyes are far ahead on the road.
It makes it easy to glance at your speed. Straight up is 60mph on my car. 9 o clock is 35mph or so. Split the difference and I'm at 45 without having to actually look out from my peripheral vision and take my eyes off the road.
If you are thinking of buying the Porsche Tycan get the Audi e-Tron GT instead. It's the same platform but has way more physical buttons and switches unlike the Porsche which want mostly touch screen.
My 2018 CX5 has a touchscreen, but it's entirely disabled while the car is moving. So I've never used it. I just wish they saved the time and money not developing it, but I guess it's one of those marketing bullet points.
I don't mind having a smart car, in fact, I like most of the "smart" features - lane centering, adaptive cruise, emergency braking, TPMS, lane change cameras, auto headlights, auto wipers, etc.
But I want buttons and knobs for everything I use while driving.
I probably wouldn't pay extra for built-in navigation (it generally comes with other options that I do want), but I've found it useful a few times when I was outside of cellular coverage.
But I want buttons and knobs for everything I use while driving.
I probably wouldn't pay extra for built-in navigation (it generally comes with other options that I do want), but I've found it useful a few times when I was outside of cellular coverage.
> But I want buttons and knobs for everything I use while driving.
My Subaru Impreza has a physical power/volume knob but it won't do anything when you start the car and then shift to reverse (to back out of the garage). It's like it's dedicating its resources to the rear view camera and doesn't have any cycles to handle the input events on the control knob. Also it decides to turn on the radio even if you weren't using the radio when you turned off the car. So, you have to listen to the radio blasting (at whatever the volume was when I got there, which might have been different media with lower volume such as a podcast) while you back up (might be a good time to be able to hear instead) until a few seconds after you shift to D. At that point, it processes the queued up inputs from the knob and will suddenly turn down or off depending on the inputs.
I would prefer it to be a variable (logarithmic, because that's how audio perception works) resistor directly controlling the amplifier or whatever, like radios used to be.
I love adaptive cruise. I use it 90%+ of the time. But this is also one more reason that I hate cars and will probably sell it soon. But I'll still have to deal with similar issues if I rent a ZipCar or something.
It falls into a larger category I've been thinking about a lot lately about how a lot of problems with technology these days is due to the difference in how the desires of software creators and those of users diverges and creates those problems. I'm leaning towards suggesting that everyone needs to write their own software, using shared knowledge, not just use software that other people wrote for you.
My Subaru Impreza has a physical power/volume knob but it won't do anything when you start the car and then shift to reverse (to back out of the garage). It's like it's dedicating its resources to the rear view camera and doesn't have any cycles to handle the input events on the control knob. Also it decides to turn on the radio even if you weren't using the radio when you turned off the car. So, you have to listen to the radio blasting (at whatever the volume was when I got there, which might have been different media with lower volume such as a podcast) while you back up (might be a good time to be able to hear instead) until a few seconds after you shift to D. At that point, it processes the queued up inputs from the knob and will suddenly turn down or off depending on the inputs.
I would prefer it to be a variable (logarithmic, because that's how audio perception works) resistor directly controlling the amplifier or whatever, like radios used to be.
I love adaptive cruise. I use it 90%+ of the time. But this is also one more reason that I hate cars and will probably sell it soon. But I'll still have to deal with similar issues if I rent a ZipCar or something.
It falls into a larger category I've been thinking about a lot lately about how a lot of problems with technology these days is due to the difference in how the desires of software creators and those of users diverges and creates those problems. I'm leaning towards suggesting that everyone needs to write their own software, using shared knowledge, not just use software that other people wrote for you.
If all smart features would work perfectly, I wouldn’t mind either. But.
- lane centering - in some cars for whatever reason drives to close to middle of the lane
- emergency breaking - false positives sometimes. I was overtaking a cyclist, and although I kept lots of distance as the opposite lane was completely free, it made my car slow down a lot. Luckily nobody was behind me
- tmps, it's fine till sensors work or detected properly
- auto headlights - sometimes they are late, and drivers coming from opposite side are made. Hopefully matrix led will be better
- auto wipers - the worst of the worst! Either too slow or too fast. Or not detecting the drizzle. WTF. Really, the best was the old school knob, which just turned right/left and allowed full control over the interval
See my response to your parent, upthread - and the accompanying (and very compelling) seminar about automation dependency in airline accidents.
Please drive your car.
Please drive your car.
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Mercedes and Mazda have this in many of their models - mechanical rotary dials and real buttons for common controls.
Mercedes 'had' this. But their newer models are going in wrong direction.
No, now they have this overly complicated wheel that's arguably worse than a touchscreen.
ACC and LKAS on our 2019 Honda is so awful I simply can't use it.
When someone crosses 3 lanes in front of me ACC will hit the brakes hard to maintain the correct distance. It's jolting and scary.
LKAS only sees about 80% of the lanes. Rather than just driving like normal which I'm experienced with I have to sit there paranoid that something will go wrong and I'll need to react to a surprise event.
I don't know if it's the idea or the just the implementation that I hate. Am considering comma.ai
When someone crosses 3 lanes in front of me ACC will hit the brakes hard to maintain the correct distance. It's jolting and scary.
LKAS only sees about 80% of the lanes. Rather than just driving like normal which I'm experienced with I have to sit there paranoid that something will go wrong and I'll need to react to a surprise event.
I don't know if it's the idea or the just the implementation that I hate. Am considering comma.ai
I love ACC in my 2020 accord (which is the same generation as your 2019). I've never had it hit the brakes hard enough to be jolting, even when a car changes into my lane.
The LKAS is hit and miss, like you said, unless the lines are very clearly visible, it can't stay in the lane. I wish it looked at the car ahead to help with lanekeeping. But it's never surprising when it loses sight of the lane markers (though it does tend to drift to the right at exits, but it doesn't make a sharp move). But even in its current state, LKAS is great for long freeway drives.
The LKAS is hit and miss, like you said, unless the lines are very clearly visible, it can't stay in the lane. I wish it looked at the car ahead to help with lanekeeping. But it's never surprising when it loses sight of the lane markers (though it does tend to drift to the right at exits, but it doesn't make a sharp move). But even in its current state, LKAS is great for long freeway drives.
Surprised to hear that. The ACC on my 2019 CR-V is the best adaptive cruise control I've used, a lot smoother than ACC I've tried in substantially more expensive cars. I agree the LKAS is pretty crappy (off of highways, it seems closer to 60% of lanes), but I've never experienced anything with it that's caused actual problems. The crappiness just comes from it frequently not knowing where the lane is, but I leave it on at all times for the times where it does recognize them.
I've never tried other ACC so it might just be me.
The specific situation is this: I live in Los Angeles and set ACC for max following distance on the freeway. Inevitably this means that someone will use that space to cut across 3 lanes and, as soon as do, ACC will rapidly slow me down to put distance between me and the new lead car. I'll find myself suddenly under 50 on the freeway as a result. maybe that's just how ACC is but imo the PID controller or whatever could be toned down a bit.
The specific situation is this: I live in Los Angeles and set ACC for max following distance on the freeway. Inevitably this means that someone will use that space to cut across 3 lanes and, as soon as do, ACC will rapidly slow me down to put distance between me and the new lead car. I'll find myself suddenly under 50 on the freeway as a result. maybe that's just how ACC is but imo the PID controller or whatever could be toned down a bit.
yes. totally agree. I LOVE adaptive cruise control, but also love/need the ability to work the music and environment selection buttons - switch stations, switch cds, change sources, turn heat up down etc - with just an instantaneous glance followed by touch only.
My Honda Accord is pretty good with this -- it has a lot of smart features, but also has buttons for pretty much everything I need (real clickable buttons or knobs, not touch sensitive buttons that give no tactile feedback)
The voice response system is horrible, if I have to use the Honda navigation, I almost always need to stop so I can type in my destination. But since I use Android Auto 99% of the time, it doesn't really bother me.
The voice response system is horrible, if I have to use the Honda navigation, I almost always need to stop so I can type in my destination. But since I use Android Auto 99% of the time, it doesn't really bother me.
yeah, touch controls are wildly underrated right now. there'll be a comeback sooner or later.
I don't think they're underrated, they're much more expensive than drawing pixels on a screen, especially now that screens are required, by federal law (back up cameras). I imagine we'll first see them reappear in luxury cars.
Smart cars will most likely go the way of intrusive surveillance smart TVs.
Are the features worth it?
Are the features worth it?
"I like most of the "smart" features - lane centering, adaptive cruise, emergency braking ..."
Please drive your car.
I don't care what choices you make wrt bluetooth or heated seats or iphone integration ... but if you can't be bothered to drive the car then perhaps a different transport option would be a better choice for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ESJH1NLMLs
"... as we look at this accident history what we find is that in 68% of these accidents, automation dependency plays a significant part ..."
"... automation dependent pilots allowed their airplanes to get much closer to the edge of the envelope than they should have ..."
Please drive your car.
I don't care what choices you make wrt bluetooth or heated seats or iphone integration ... but if you can't be bothered to drive the car then perhaps a different transport option would be a better choice for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ESJH1NLMLs
"... as we look at this accident history what we find is that in 68% of these accidents, automation dependency plays a significant part ..."
"... automation dependent pilots allowed their airplanes to get much closer to the edge of the envelope than they should have ..."
I'm not sure that aviation automation is directly comparable to the current state of driver assistance features.
You should be more concerned with what I'm doing bluetooth than whether or not I let the car keep a safe following distance from the car in front of me since if I'm in a heated discussion with my ex on the phone, I'm paying a lot less attention to the road than I should be, and I'd be better off letting the car do most of the driving.
None of the driver assistance features I listed above allow hands-off driving, if ACC fails, my car will slow down, or maybe get too close to the car in front of me, but since I've already got my hands on the wheel and looking ahead, it's not a big deal.
The poor state of automation for most cars actually ensures better driver attention -- LKAS works around 80% of the time on the freeways. If it worked 99% of the time, I'd be less focused on driving.
But even looking at airplanes, even if automation is implicated in some portion of accidents, is that worse than if pilots have to actively fly the entire time and end up exhausted by the end of a cross country flight when it comes time to land and they need to be at their best.
You should be more concerned with what I'm doing bluetooth than whether or not I let the car keep a safe following distance from the car in front of me since if I'm in a heated discussion with my ex on the phone, I'm paying a lot less attention to the road than I should be, and I'd be better off letting the car do most of the driving.
None of the driver assistance features I listed above allow hands-off driving, if ACC fails, my car will slow down, or maybe get too close to the car in front of me, but since I've already got my hands on the wheel and looking ahead, it's not a big deal.
The poor state of automation for most cars actually ensures better driver attention -- LKAS works around 80% of the time on the freeways. If it worked 99% of the time, I'd be less focused on driving.
But even looking at airplanes, even if automation is implicated in some portion of accidents, is that worse than if pilots have to actively fly the entire time and end up exhausted by the end of a cross country flight when it comes time to land and they need to be at their best.
Please stop driving your car. I don't care what choices you make wrt other ways you like to put others in danger, but if you can't be bothered to use features that can save others lives then a different transportation option would be a better choice for you and the world.
One thing I was flabbergasted at recently was Tesla offering, and the government allowing, regular drivers to use a yoke steering wheel like F1 drivers. Not only is it harder for the average person to handle but their firmware hadn't accounted for the fact that if you steer fully left or right the yoke is upside down and if you try and indicate it ends up indicating on the wrong side.
What is wrong with a wheel and function stalks?
Gimmicks like this, and they are gimmicks, are dangerous and it's concerning no regulator seems to care enough to stop it.
What is wrong with a wheel and function stalks?
Gimmicks like this, and they are gimmicks, are dangerous and it's concerning no regulator seems to care enough to stop it.
The steering wheel in an F1 car only goes about 220 degrees in either direction (drivers have to keep their hands on the wheel and their arms aren't made of rubber). The steering in a regular car goes about 540 degrees in either direction (one and a half times around). When parallel parking you often have to turn the wheel three whole revolutions.
F1 steering https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVz6IW_wegs&t=45s
Tesla steering https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWtJu0q3sBQ&t=44s
F1 steering https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVz6IW_wegs&t=45s
Tesla steering https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWtJu0q3sBQ&t=44s
Your second video horrified me. What the hell are they thinking with the touch-sensitive inputs on the steering wheel? Nevermind the weird shape and the issues with orientation when signaling during a steering maneuver. Those aren't actual buttons, they're no better than a touch screen.
When I drive, my hands aren't always in the exact same position on the wheel. Muscle-memory won't reliably have my thumb landing on the correct signal direction. If I have to honk the horn, I need to be able to do that instantly, without thinking. Some cutesy icon located away from the edge of the steering wheel will guarantee that the horn sounds simultaneously with the "crunch" of another car backing into me.
My proposed rule-of-thumb: If a video game company wouldn't design their controllers this way, you shouldn't do it either for the most common—or most urgent—functions. Turn signals, wipers, horn, and hazard lights should all be real buttons that are in a consistent location. Horn should be in the hub of the steering wheel.
When I drive, my hands aren't always in the exact same position on the wheel. Muscle-memory won't reliably have my thumb landing on the correct signal direction. If I have to honk the horn, I need to be able to do that instantly, without thinking. Some cutesy icon located away from the edge of the steering wheel will guarantee that the horn sounds simultaneously with the "crunch" of another car backing into me.
My proposed rule-of-thumb: If a video game company wouldn't design their controllers this way, you shouldn't do it either for the most common—or most urgent—functions. Turn signals, wipers, horn, and hazard lights should all be real buttons that are in a consistent location. Horn should be in the hub of the steering wheel.
Glad i'm not the only one who thinks this is insane. I could maybe see a yolk, but dear god get me AWAY from touch screen style buttons in any serious process, let alone ones that can wind up in different orientations.
And why in the hell does a yolk need to have the horn on a button rather than the center of the yolk as anyone would expect? Maybe there's some technical reason i'm unaware of, but this seems actively dangerous for no gain. I can think of several better ways to do this that aren't actively confusing and hostile to the driver.
And why in the hell does a yolk need to have the horn on a button rather than the center of the yolk as anyone would expect? Maybe there's some technical reason i'm unaware of, but this seems actively dangerous for no gain. I can think of several better ways to do this that aren't actively confusing and hostile to the driver.
> And why in the hell does a yolk need to have the horn on a button rather than the center of the yolk as anyone would expect? Maybe there's some technical reason i'm unaware of
No you're right, it's change for the sake of change. It is now a status symbol to show off how well you drive a vehicle whose management is more challenging than other cars.
No you're right, it's change for the sake of change. It is now a status symbol to show off how well you drive a vehicle whose management is more challenging than other cars.
I feel like that is a cost decision. Instead of making the whole centre of the wheel a button you assign it to some capacitive button on the side.
But I agree, that second video is insane.
But I agree, that second video is insane.
They added cost by reinventing the wheel. It's a status symbol for bad drivers to pay more for something different.
The horn thing doesn't seem like that big a deal actually. I've never used the horn in a potential accident situation because there's always something better I could be focusing on to avoid the accident. As pilot say: aviate, navigate, then communicate. [0] Some studies seems to support that [1].
The only accidents I can imagine the horn preventing are ones where you are stationary, which almost always means the other car is moving slowly - like somebody backing into you in a parking lot. Overall pretty low consequence incidents.
So to the extent that horn use is nearly all elective rather than emergency, is antisocial and has few benefits: make it a small, hard-to-reach button.
(With important exceptions like heavy vehicles that can't maneuver well and non-Western driving cultures that rely on routine horn use to communicate intentions.)
[0] Granted aircraft have an extra dimension to play in for collision-avoidance. [1] https://slate.com/technology/2008/11/honk-if-you-know-why-yo...
The only accidents I can imagine the horn preventing are ones where you are stationary, which almost always means the other car is moving slowly - like somebody backing into you in a parking lot. Overall pretty low consequence incidents.
So to the extent that horn use is nearly all elective rather than emergency, is antisocial and has few benefits: make it a small, hard-to-reach button.
(With important exceptions like heavy vehicles that can't maneuver well and non-Western driving cultures that rely on routine horn use to communicate intentions.)
[0] Granted aircraft have an extra dimension to play in for collision-avoidance. [1] https://slate.com/technology/2008/11/honk-if-you-know-why-yo...
They don't give you a massive "hey WTF, stop doing that!" button for you to not use it in blind religious adherence to a shallow rule of thumb or misguided attempt at politeness.
People with your attitude toward horn use likely cause substantial harm to society through fender benders, delays, frustration, etc, etc.
I think I can maybe count on one hand the number of times I've had to move out of a lane lest someone merge into me. The times that situation has been prevented through horn use are innumerable. And that's just one example.
People with your attitude toward horn use likely cause substantial harm to society through fender benders, delays, frustration, etc, etc.
I think I can maybe count on one hand the number of times I've had to move out of a lane lest someone merge into me. The times that situation has been prevented through horn use are innumerable. And that's just one example.
> Those aren't actual buttons, they're no better than a touch screen.
Your comment fondly reminded me of my very first computer, which was a Sinclair ZX81.
Let's just say that it wasn't ideal for text processing.
About the same as this "steering console" doesn't look quite ideal for driving a fucking car.
I concur with your horrification.
Your comment fondly reminded me of my very first computer, which was a Sinclair ZX81.
Let's just say that it wasn't ideal for text processing.
About the same as this "steering console" doesn't look quite ideal for driving a fucking car.
I concur with your horrification.
And you just reminded me of my first computer. An Atari 400.
The 800 had real keys, but the 400 was just a membrane keyboard. Didn’t matter; we only used it to play video games anyway.
I can’t imagine having to type on that thing.
The 800 had real keys, but the 400 was just a membrane keyboard. Didn’t matter; we only used it to play video games anyway.
I can’t imagine having to type on that thing.
Touch-based buttons feels like a huge step backwards. Have we learned nothing from having to use touch phones for the last 12 years, either that or everyone is much better than me at not missing touch inputs
And everyone wants to be part of that cool touch movement too, by using capacitive touch buttons. So modern! And cheaper too, but that doesn't stop you from marketing it as premium. Try buying a stove with induction and normal knobs. Nope, it's touch. Cheap touch buttons, that don't work if your hands are wet, or greasy. Which totally never happens when you're cooking. So you're handling three pots, one starts boiling over. With knobs it would take me half a second to turn it off. With my awesome induction stove I'm stuck on mashing the button to select the proper field with my greasy hand which doesn't work, but at least when finally half the pot's content flows onto the touch controls the stove turns off entirely and starts beeping like crazy. But at least it's easier to clean than haptic controls.
Touch controls on stoves are mostly about making cleaning easier. You just wipe a flat surface.
I'd like to introduce you to my grandmother's flat surface stove from the 70s with 0 touch controls. It's easy, just decouple the controls from the heating element.
3/4 of the reason they're touch is being 'cool' and none of the designers ever cooking a meal in their life.
3/4 of the reason they're touch is being 'cool' and none of the designers ever cooking a meal in their life.
Messes go further than just the heating element. Things splatter, run over. Even with controls on the face of the range (not always practical) you may need to clean them from messes.
Its definitely easy to clean my entire range being a flat piece of glass, and personally I've never had any problems with sensitivity on the buttons. Plus, that whole cook top is then still useful as a counter top as even the glass is only slightly raised over the rest of the counter surface. In my experience the glass top range I have has been wonderful, and I was originally planning on tearing it out and putting in a gas unit. I've since second guessed those plans and will probably keep the range for a while longer, no knobs has actually been pretty nice.
Its definitely easy to clean my entire range being a flat piece of glass, and personally I've never had any problems with sensitivity on the buttons. Plus, that whole cook top is then still useful as a counter top as even the glass is only slightly raised over the rest of the counter surface. In my experience the glass top range I have has been wonderful, and I was originally planning on tearing it out and putting in a gas unit. I've since second guessed those plans and will probably keep the range for a while longer, no knobs has actually been pretty nice.
Not to mention that if you're wearing gloves you're screwed.
I literally grew up along side ios and I still struggle to select text, copy, and paste. It's just a fundamentally crappy interface.
They can be done well, think about the Haptic Touch home button in the iPhone 7/8. I'd be happy with something like that on the steering wheel.
I'd rather have an actual button. The haptic touch doesn't always trigger e.g. if your finger is sweaty or wet. The button on the other hand always works. I've broken just about everything on old iphones but never that home button. When it comes to driving a car the buttons should always work, not just under ideal situations.
I am stunned. I am never buying a car that decides for me if I should be going forwards or in reverse. How did this anti-feature go through so many supposedly smart people? Does PHB work there also?
That second video is horrifying. Horn and signal inputs as touch buttons on a steering wheel and no clear gear selection? What absolute madness by Tesla.
Holy shit, everything about that Tesla experience is a nightmare.
how is that Tesla even legal?
it makes a mockery of so many absurd rules other manufacturers in the US have to follow. Really raises question how Tesla get away with these.
Really seems Tesla is regressing a lot of _important_ controls :(
I think these gimmicks and the new touchscreen UI serve a purpose for Tesla. Their goal is to make the car so divorced from human input that (1) it becomes increasingly reasonable to claim that an unfinished self-driving system is no more dangerous than a human in the loop, and (2) their fan base is conditioned to accept the eventuality of having no meaningful input (or feedback) at all. As for part two, I noticed it a couple years ago with a relative who bought a Tesla and was still just awed by its features. But all the ones he was awed by were the ones that took power away from the driver. I wondered then, why would anyone want to own this car once it really does all the driving for you? No one will actually own a Tesla at that point, they'll just call one on an app. Except for maybe a few silly people who want to feel like they're telling it what to do with a joystick.
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And all the buttons on the yoke are touch sensitive. That makes absolutely no sense for a control device.
Just like everything done by Tesla: they have absolutely no experience in making cars, and it shows really badly. Terrible construction quality that I don't even experience on a 10k € Dacia, touch screens everywhere (it's already bad enough when it's just the radio or Android Auto, but a bunch of critical features are on the touch screen), the yoke having no physical feedback and clearly no thought other than "wow futuristic" behind it.
Smoke and mirrors is Tesla's way of operating. Look at the coverage they got out of the yoke. Out of FSD. It doesn't matter that they are terrible: there'll be 100 articles about it releasing and 2 about it being a bad idea.
Smoke and mirrors is Tesla's way of operating. Look at the coverage they got out of the yoke. Out of FSD. It doesn't matter that they are terrible: there'll be 100 articles about it releasing and 2 about it being a bad idea.
Totally agree. I have a decent German-made car and it BLOWS Tesla out of the water in build quality. I remember getting into the model S in a showroom and just feeling like I was in a budget auto. For 100k it doesn't compare at all to a 50k Audi, it's just plasticy and flimsy. It felt like the McMansion of cars, all show.
Tesla should really stick to making electric drivetrains and branding and let someone else design and build the rest if the car.
Honestly a lot of cars are ugly. Look at what they've been doing to BMWs lately. Safety features combined with an unwillingness to look very different from the rest of the pack anymore have created these designs by committee that are not truly terrible where they won't sell but also not very good where people will look to them as a piece of art like an old aircooled porsche.
Elon is weirdly good at getting regulators to just let him do things.
FSD beta. The yoke steering wheel. Like a quarter of everything SpaceX does.
Does he just have really good lobbyists? Is his force of personality just that good? It’s kind of fascinating.
FSD beta. The yoke steering wheel. Like a quarter of everything SpaceX does.
Does he just have really good lobbyists? Is his force of personality just that good? It’s kind of fascinating.
> it's kind of fascinating.
For me I'd replace that with: scary. Full size A4 paper and bigger screens in cars you can stream movies on while driving (distraction leading to accidents); the Las Vegas Loop which is just a tunnel for only one type of car (waste of infrastructure space); pushing untested AI (crashing and killing people). These aren't fascinating things.
For me I'd replace that with: scary. Full size A4 paper and bigger screens in cars you can stream movies on while driving (distraction leading to accidents); the Las Vegas Loop which is just a tunnel for only one type of car (waste of infrastructure space); pushing untested AI (crashing and killing people). These aren't fascinating things.
I don't like the pedestrian killing murder-machine aspect of their vast In Vehicle Entertainment systems at all. The Vegas Loop tells such a strong tale though, to me, of control over infrastructure itself, in a vulgar & horrific way.
Just like Tesla's charging infrastructure! Can you imagine if you had to find a Ford or a Toyota gas station to fill up at? This world used to be able to get along, to find general welfare. Cooperation used to exist. Tesla keeps being more and more an example of anti-cooperative anti-civil market-capture horseshit. A car no one else can repair, with it's own charging infrastructure, it's own roads: this screams "THE ENEMY" to me. It's the most capitalist-lowlife Lawful Evil behaviors writ large here, on display: vulgar & primitive exercises in dominance, with no pretense that there's space for anyone else in the world, no sense in leaving any room for any one else on the planet.
Just like Tesla's charging infrastructure! Can you imagine if you had to find a Ford or a Toyota gas station to fill up at? This world used to be able to get along, to find general welfare. Cooperation used to exist. Tesla keeps being more and more an example of anti-cooperative anti-civil market-capture horseshit. A car no one else can repair, with it's own charging infrastructure, it's own roads: this screams "THE ENEMY" to me. It's the most capitalist-lowlife Lawful Evil behaviors writ large here, on display: vulgar & primitive exercises in dominance, with no pretense that there's space for anyone else in the world, no sense in leaving any room for any one else on the planet.
Tesla's charging is different because they created their charging infrastructure before anyone else. The first supercharger was built in 2012. Despite Tesla open sourcing their patents[1], other EV manufacturers used different standards. Also Tesla is starting to let non-Teslas use their superchargers.[2] All Teslas can use other charging stations, though they'll charge slowly. Newer Teslas (since late 2019) have support for the high speed Combined Charging System standard and Tesla is rolling out CCS adapters.[3] Lastly, most EV charging happens at home using level 1 or level 2 systems, which are standard NEMA plugs that Tesla sells adapters for.
If Tesla's goal was to lock-in their customers and exclude other vehicles, they seem to be doing all the wrong things.
1. https://www.tesla.com/legal/additional-resources#patent-pled...
2. https://www.tesla.com/support/non-tesla-supercharging
3. https://driveteslacanada.ca/model-y/tesla-ccs-adapter-activa...
If Tesla's goal was to lock-in their customers and exclude other vehicles, they seem to be doing all the wrong things.
1. https://www.tesla.com/legal/additional-resources#patent-pled...
2. https://www.tesla.com/support/non-tesla-supercharging
3. https://driveteslacanada.ca/model-y/tesla-ccs-adapter-activa...
tesla was not even a notion when electric car charging was created. tesla did not create somethint feom nothing, other systems existed.
tesla making a patent pledgeh not early, in 2014- doesnt incentivize anyone to pick tesla's bespoke new charging technologies, if your cars wont reap the benefits of interoperability with their system. tesla didnt say their charging infrastructure would work with your cars, only that you could go make your own copies of either car or charger network.
your messaging is extremely strong & you raise some very good points. from my perspective though you are still concealing, hiding, denying more than hapf the facts. random irrelevant facts like teslas being able to consumer actual standards get thrown in, but of course tesla wants to be a parasite on othercs network externalities while providing no net benefit themselves, yet you describe this lopsided controlling behavior as if it's in their favor. you throw in non-network-effect charging as though it should have an impact on society growing positive network effects for itself: this also feels ultra-contrary to the point. even if true, it means i cant go to a friends and expect my non-tesla to get a charge.
everything here is shit. your "rebuttals" are examples of tesla insisting on their own game. you ignored the points about LV & the impossible-to-repair-out-of-network problems with tesla. i am not mived by your arguments, they feel distracting & misdirecting.
tesla making a patent pledgeh not early, in 2014- doesnt incentivize anyone to pick tesla's bespoke new charging technologies, if your cars wont reap the benefits of interoperability with their system. tesla didnt say their charging infrastructure would work with your cars, only that you could go make your own copies of either car or charger network.
your messaging is extremely strong & you raise some very good points. from my perspective though you are still concealing, hiding, denying more than hapf the facts. random irrelevant facts like teslas being able to consumer actual standards get thrown in, but of course tesla wants to be a parasite on othercs network externalities while providing no net benefit themselves, yet you describe this lopsided controlling behavior as if it's in their favor. you throw in non-network-effect charging as though it should have an impact on society growing positive network effects for itself: this also feels ultra-contrary to the point. even if true, it means i cant go to a friends and expect my non-tesla to get a charge.
everything here is shit. your "rebuttals" are examples of tesla insisting on their own game. you ignored the points about LV & the impossible-to-repair-out-of-network problems with tesla. i am not mived by your arguments, they feel distracting & misdirecting.
> Full size A4 paper and bigger screens in cars you can stream movies on while driving (distraction leading to accidents);
Teslas will only let you watch videos if you're in park. This has always been the case.
> the Las Vegas Loop which is just a tunnel for only one type of car (waste of infrastructure space)
It cost $50m to construct, which is 1/5th the cost of similarly-specced people movers or trains. The second-cheapest bid was by Doppelmayr/Garaventa Group and would have cost $215m. The loop has met or exceeded all of the benchmarks set by the Las Vega Convention & Visitors Authority.[1] The program has been so successful that LVCVA purchased the Las Vegas Monorail system just so they could get rid of the monorail's noncompete clause and allow a larger Vegas Loop to be constructed.[2] Later, Clark county unanimously approved construction of the Vegas Loop, which is planned to have 51 stations and 29 miles of tunnel.[3]
> pushing untested AI (crashing and killing people)
No vehicle running the FSD beta has been involved in a death. You're talking about the autopilot features, which are a form of traffic aware cruise control. Many of the claimed fatalities turned out to be reckless drivers. For example: a fatal crash in Texas last April originally blamed autopilot and claimed that it was "100 percent certain" that no one was in the driver seat at the time of the crash.[4] The preliminary NHTSA investigation found that the driver was in the driver's seat, had not buckled his seat belt, and had pressed the accelerator to as high as 98.8%. (This was in a 778 horsepower Model S that could go from 0-60mph in 2.4 seconds.) NHTSA investigators could not engage autopilot on the road where the crash happened, since that road had no lane markings.[4] Also the owner of the vehicle had not purchased the the option to allow autopilot on surface streets.
There are many legitimate criticisms that one can level at Musk & his companies, but you haven't made them.
1. https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/tourism/boring-co-s-t...
2. https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/tourism/lvcva-expecte...
3. https://twitter.com/ClarkCountyNV/status/1450877187779796992
4. https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/19/22391890/tesla-driverless...
5. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/driver-was-behind-wheel...
Teslas will only let you watch videos if you're in park. This has always been the case.
> the Las Vegas Loop which is just a tunnel for only one type of car (waste of infrastructure space)
It cost $50m to construct, which is 1/5th the cost of similarly-specced people movers or trains. The second-cheapest bid was by Doppelmayr/Garaventa Group and would have cost $215m. The loop has met or exceeded all of the benchmarks set by the Las Vega Convention & Visitors Authority.[1] The program has been so successful that LVCVA purchased the Las Vegas Monorail system just so they could get rid of the monorail's noncompete clause and allow a larger Vegas Loop to be constructed.[2] Later, Clark county unanimously approved construction of the Vegas Loop, which is planned to have 51 stations and 29 miles of tunnel.[3]
> pushing untested AI (crashing and killing people)
No vehicle running the FSD beta has been involved in a death. You're talking about the autopilot features, which are a form of traffic aware cruise control. Many of the claimed fatalities turned out to be reckless drivers. For example: a fatal crash in Texas last April originally blamed autopilot and claimed that it was "100 percent certain" that no one was in the driver seat at the time of the crash.[4] The preliminary NHTSA investigation found that the driver was in the driver's seat, had not buckled his seat belt, and had pressed the accelerator to as high as 98.8%. (This was in a 778 horsepower Model S that could go from 0-60mph in 2.4 seconds.) NHTSA investigators could not engage autopilot on the road where the crash happened, since that road had no lane markings.[4] Also the owner of the vehicle had not purchased the the option to allow autopilot on surface streets.
There are many legitimate criticisms that one can level at Musk & his companies, but you haven't made them.
1. https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/tourism/boring-co-s-t...
2. https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/tourism/lvcva-expecte...
3. https://twitter.com/ClarkCountyNV/status/1450877187779796992
4. https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/19/22391890/tesla-driverless...
5. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/driver-was-behind-wheel...
He does not have good lobbyists.
Have you seen Tesla being the only company not invited on electric car day in white house?
https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a37244461/elon-musk...
Do you know that Tesla will be excluded from tax credits for EVs?
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/29/energy-secretary-defends-tes...
Do you know that Texas where Tesla is building its next factory does not allow to sell Teslas?
https://cbsaustin.com/news/local/texas-law-keeps-teslas-made...
Have you seen Tesla being the only company not invited on electric car day in white house?
https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a37244461/elon-musk...
Do you know that Tesla will be excluded from tax credits for EVs?
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/29/energy-secretary-defends-tes...
Do you know that Texas where Tesla is building its next factory does not allow to sell Teslas?
https://cbsaustin.com/news/local/texas-law-keeps-teslas-made...
Eh, he just needs to touch up his PR when it comes to labor relations.
> Do you know that Texas where Tesla is building its next factory does not allow to sell Teslas?
You think you can't buy a Tesla in Texas? What planet are you on?
> Do you know that Texas where Tesla is building its next factory does not allow to sell Teslas?
You think you can't buy a Tesla in Texas? What planet are you on?
Yes, Texas does not allow direct sale of cars.
You have to buy your Tesla out of the state and Tesla will deliver the car to Texas.
https://cbsaustin.com/news/local/texas-law-keeps-teslas-made...
https://insideevs.com/news/510302/tesla-no-sales-allowed-tex...
Biden administration is explicitly designing laws to prop up other car companies and exclude Tesla.
It's not just about labor PR, they want to force Tesla to unionize.
But Tesla will not unionize and they will be the only ones without subsidies. Extremely shitty lobbing.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/29/energy-secretary-defends-tes...
You have to buy your Tesla out of the state and Tesla will deliver the car to Texas.
https://cbsaustin.com/news/local/texas-law-keeps-teslas-made...
https://insideevs.com/news/510302/tesla-no-sales-allowed-tex...
Biden administration is explicitly designing laws to prop up other car companies and exclude Tesla.
It's not just about labor PR, they want to force Tesla to unionize.
But Tesla will not unionize and they will be the only ones without subsidies. Extremely shitty lobbing.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/29/energy-secretary-defends-tes...
> What planet are you on?
Uhh, Texas?
You cannot buy a Tesla in Texas. Technically speaking, the transaction happens out of state and the car is shipped to you in Texas. Legally speaking Tesla has never sold a car in Texas. They have Tesla "galleries" where you can look at cars, take test drives, customize your order, and they'll help with the paperwork for you to buy it out of state.
I don't think Texas is alone in their dealer franchise laws.
Uhh, Texas?
You cannot buy a Tesla in Texas. Technically speaking, the transaction happens out of state and the car is shipped to you in Texas. Legally speaking Tesla has never sold a car in Texas. They have Tesla "galleries" where you can look at cars, take test drives, customize your order, and they'll help with the paperwork for you to buy it out of state.
I don't think Texas is alone in their dealer franchise laws.
I'm interested to know how he's going to get away with that truck that looks like its designed to cut pedestrians in half.
I don't understand why this is an argument against Tesla - how is it different than any other large truck?
Front bumpers of most cars/truck are generally plastic and can at least absorb energy of an impact with a pedestrian (albeit the hood is often near neck high and can snap their neck)
Tesla paraded their new truck with 'stainless steel body panels all around'. I don't know about you, but I've banged my shin into a steel tow hitch. I don't want anything remotely close to that on the road.
Tesla paraded their new truck with 'stainless steel body panels all around'. I don't know about you, but I've banged my shin into a steel tow hitch. I don't want anything remotely close to that on the road.
That doesn't make sense to me. I watched some pedestrian crash test videos, there is no energy absorption by the bumper. It's bad news to be hit by any car. (I'm no Tesla fanboy)
Most pedestrian crash tests are at low enough speed that there isn't visible energy absorption, plus most dummies aren't equivalent to most human scales. They tend to be modeled after a 6' adult male at around 200lbs.
The bigger issue with larger vehicles is their height around people current full size or even mid-size SUVs and trucks have gotten larger than their former variants. You're much more likely as a pedestrian to get run over than to be hit by a car and land on the hood or the windshield (which is by far the better position to be in during an accident). The crash bar behind the bumper on all cars have a thick layer of foam that contributes to the 'softness' of a bumper.
The bigger issue with larger vehicles is their height around people current full size or even mid-size SUVs and trucks have gotten larger than their former variants. You're much more likely as a pedestrian to get run over than to be hit by a car and land on the hood or the windshield (which is by far the better position to be in during an accident). The crash bar behind the bumper on all cars have a thick layer of foam that contributes to the 'softness' of a bumper.
You rarely need to reverse F1 cars and if you do you probably have bigger problems. A round wheel does make so much more sense and is far more comfortable to handle.
Tesla is basically the 2000s prius. It is cool now, but in near future won't be anymore.
You've got that backwards. Prius weren't cool all the way until 2014, around the time environmental status symbol transferred to EV's and the used Prius started becoming very economical. Certain half of the political spectrum wouldn't be caught dead in them before hand and every other Hollywood movie had a cringy joke lambasting or praising them. Now they're just seen as a reliable financially savvy vehicles, not very "cool", but more popular now that regular people would have no problem driving them.
I am referring to the early 2000s when half the Hollywood celebs were driving Prius [1]. Prius carried the hype about hybrid cars back then the same way Tesla is doing now for EVs.
[1] https://www.autoweek.com/news/a2082556/starring-role-hollywo...
[1] https://www.autoweek.com/news/a2082556/starring-role-hollywo...
They were also pretty lambasted in popular culture around that time. The Other Guys (2010) is a good example of how the car was treated in the cultural zeitgeist at the time (though part of the joke that the movie makes is demonstrating how economical and great the car is despite its ‘uncool’ vibes).
2000s priuses were very cool amongst the aging boomer-hippy population. When they first came out it was a big deal to be in the school pickup line with your prius. You probably also shopped at organic grocery stores like whole foods (before the AMZN purchase), and just transitioned from pilates to yoga. Southpark even made an episode about the phenomenon.
When something is in the entire public sphere, it feels off to call it "cool" when it only appeals to a certain small subgroup. At that time, the much larger general population had the opposite take on them. It's like calling Dungeons N' Dragons "cool" because nerds and geeks liked it a lot.
It is the nerds and geeks who like Tesla the most.
I have an early 200s Prius. Its seen better days but the battery works and I can't argue with the fuel savings. it costs me about $30 to fill up and that lasts me for about a month.
I own two Toyotas myself ;) An 8 year old Corolla that I only occasionally drive, but it never fails to take me from point A to B; another is a new and exciting Highlander hybrid which I only need to fill once every 500 miles.
Pretty much everyone who clogged up the left lane in the '00s in their Prius is still doing the same thing today but in a Tacoma or 4Runner. The specific model of blind adoration may have changed but the fanboys still line the same pockets. If that is any indication Tesla will do just fine.
Toyota are doing fine because of their reliability. Can the same be said about Tesla?
Toyota has a brand image and they design, market and sell to that image.
Tesla has established a brand image based around a different set of attributes and they design, market and sell to it.
Tesla has established a brand image based around a different set of attributes and they design, market and sell to it.
I like that. It will be interesting to see how sustainable their brand image is in future given those attributes.
I've not seen any evidence that the yoke steering wheel is dangerous. The downside that you're describing can only happen at zero or near to zero speed. BMW doesn't even install turn signals at all so I think the occasional errant turn signal is fine. The reason the NHTSA hasn't "forbid" the yoke is because... it isn't unsafe, it's just stupid.
It would be significantly less stupid if it had physical buttons on the steering wheel.
It would be significantly less stupid if it had physical buttons on the steering wheel.
> BMW doesn't even install turn signals at all
I realize there's a joke in Germany about this, but to be clear, all passenger vehicles sold in the U.S. must have working turn signals. See https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2004-title49-vol5/xm...
I realize there's a joke in Germany about this, but to be clear, all passenger vehicles sold in the U.S. must have working turn signals. See https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2004-title49-vol5/xm...
One of the reasons that there's not really a "dumb" car anymore is that backup cameras are federally mandated. So you have a camera for backing up, and you need a way to display that. So auto manufacturers say "Hey, we have this screen, people are used to touchscreens due to their phone, and it makes manufacturing easier if we put everything on a screen as it means we can just put a flat piece of plastic where all the buttons used to be, so lets make it a touchscreen!"
And once you have a computer with an operating system, UI, and (wireless) serial connections most of those features become almost "free". As a result, from the automaker's position adding all those features someone might pay for is "cheaper" for total income than not. You can always disable the features in software and keep the SKU# constant.
Some of the original backup camera models (in ford cars at least) were integrated into the rear view mirror. Worked fine for its purpose and didn’t involve a central dash monitor.
More than works fine - I prefer this spot so that I always look in the same place to see what's behind me whether I'm going forward or backward. Taking your eyes far away from any windows to focus on a tiny rearview camera view while reversing makes it hard to see other motion with peripheral vision.
Lots of after market mirrors support this, but admittedly I've only put them in cars that didn't have a camera to begin with.
Lots of after market mirrors support this, but admittedly I've only put them in cars that didn't have a camera to begin with.
My car has both options. I think the idea is you'd use the rearview mirror display primarily at night as an always-on display in place of the anti-glare polarization toggle that some rearview mirrors have, while using the center console for backing-up.
I prefer the center console. The rearview mirror is shaped and sized to display the small sliver that you can see out of the rear window which are tiny these days due to increased pillar width, and rounded back to improved crash safety and aerodynamics. The size and aspect ratio of the center console makes it much easier to see details, and doesn't have to compete with bright back-lighting from the sun. Increasing the size of the rearview mirror would be an option - don't know how big you can get before it starts impeding forward view (again, because the front roof slopes down more for aerodynamics than they did in the past).
I prefer the center console. The rearview mirror is shaped and sized to display the small sliver that you can see out of the rear window which are tiny these days due to increased pillar width, and rounded back to improved crash safety and aerodynamics. The size and aspect ratio of the center console makes it much easier to see details, and doesn't have to compete with bright back-lighting from the sun. Increasing the size of the rearview mirror would be an option - don't know how big you can get before it starts impeding forward view (again, because the front roof slopes down more for aerodynamics than they did in the past).
You can get aftermarket camera kits for ~$150 that handle that for older model cars.
https://www.amazon.com/Vehicle-Backup-Cameras/b?ie=UTF8&node...
The backup camera genuinely is a great feature, but the touchscreen is itself awful. I agree with Mazda on this (and the US Navy, which is also replacing touchscreens with knobs).
I'm hoping we start seeing a renaissance of car customization -- for example I know that kit cars, almost all of which are pretty dumb - are gaining in popularity. One of the nice things about electric vehicles is the greatly simplified powertrain is going to create a lot of opportunities for customization and DIY, and I hope our regulatory environment is reformed to support that more. In the czech republic, everyone works on their own car and we have a friend who built his own car from scratch, but in the U.S. we see a lot less of that type of autonomy.
https://www.amazon.com/Vehicle-Backup-Cameras/b?ie=UTF8&node...
The backup camera genuinely is a great feature, but the touchscreen is itself awful. I agree with Mazda on this (and the US Navy, which is also replacing touchscreens with knobs).
I'm hoping we start seeing a renaissance of car customization -- for example I know that kit cars, almost all of which are pretty dumb - are gaining in popularity. One of the nice things about electric vehicles is the greatly simplified powertrain is going to create a lot of opportunities for customization and DIY, and I hope our regulatory environment is reformed to support that more. In the czech republic, everyone works on their own car and we have a friend who built his own car from scratch, but in the U.S. we see a lot less of that type of autonomy.
"Then we can charge them for our optional (mandatory, if you want even basic modern functionality, such as remote start) monthly/yearly subscription services! We'll call it Car+!"
The easy solution here would be to eschew such features. Remote start seems like it provides no benefit except to waste slightly more gas, and also to occasionally suffocate the elderly or otherwise forgetful.
If you live in a place with cold winters, it's pretty handy to be able to start your car as you leave the office. By the time you've walked to your car, it's nice and warm and the engine is running optimally.[1]
1. I know modern engines claim not to need to be warmed up, but I think that's a load of crap. Oil and other lubricants at very cold temperatures need to warm up and there's no evidence that it hurts anything. And it only uses a little sip of gas.
1. I know modern engines claim not to need to be warmed up, but I think that's a load of crap. Oil and other lubricants at very cold temperatures need to warm up and there's no evidence that it hurts anything. And it only uses a little sip of gas.
If you think oil and lubricants need to be warmed to a certain point to not harm the engine, why would it be any different if you were idling cold or putting it under light load cold? It wouldn't really. Old cars needed to be warm for the carburetor to provide the correct air and fuel mixture. It didn't have anything to do with lubricants. Once cars became fuel injected it became a waste of gas to warm up the car idling. The engine actually warms up faster being driven.
If you live in a place with cold winters, a block heater is a lot better.
That requires an outlet near your car. My office (back when I had to go into the office) has parking lots that don't have any outlets.
A block heater won't get the interior warmer for you to get in and block heaters require plugging in which won't be an option at the office parking lot for most people.
You can add remote start to a basic vehicle as an aftermarket upgrade.
I love having a dumb car. My wife has a modern car and my experience is superior in almost every way. She has to select a temperature and then her AC system blasts her with freezing or burning air until it decides the car is at the desired temperature. Since the selector only goes down to 65, it's impossible to get medium-temperature air on a nippy day. My dash, on the other hand, has a dial that goes from cold to hot, and I can make the air come out at exactly the temperature I want. She has a button to select where the air comes out and has to cycle through the head/foot/defrost/etc options and then wait for a motor to get what she wants. Mine is a mechanical dial I can turn to any setting instantly with no motor to break later on.
Its too bad your experience with automatic climate control systems is so terrible. I'm of the exact opposite experience. I recently had to have my car in the shop and as a rental they gave me a mid-tier level Nissan Sentra with manual climate controls. I absolutely hated having to manually adjust the climate, usually 2-3 times every trip. Why would I want to fiddle with climate controls when it could be entirely automated?
I haven't really had to adjust the climate controls in my current car since I bought it, aside from pressing the defrost button a few times. During that time outside temperatures have ranged from 15F to 110F, and my car is always comfortable inside. Even the heated steering wheel and heated seats are automatic, I haven't had to manually control those either. Automatic climate control has worked very well for me across 4 different models of cars ranging from a 2000 Honda Accord, a 2012 Ford Focus, a 2017 Hyundai Santa Fe, and a 2021 Mustang Mache E. All of them pretty much never required me to adjust it day to day, and I would go weeks to months without needing to do anything.
Given that you're talking about only being able to set the temperature selector down to 65, it sounds like you're doing automatic climate control wrong. You're going to have a bad experience if you're always setting it to max cold or max heat instead of just picking a comfortable temperature in the middle and letting the car get to that temp. Sure, it'll take a minute or two before it starts blowing air, because usually the AC needs to really start cranking before its doing anything or it takes a bit for the heater core to warm. During that time you're not really doing much blowing around the air, in fact you might make the experience in the car worse blowing non-conditioned air around.
Just like in your house, setting your AC unit to 60F isn't going to make your AC unit run harder. Do you go to your home thermostat and drag it all the way one way when you're warm, then drag it all the way to the other direction when you're cold? No, you set it for a comfortable temperature and let the system hold it there.
I haven't really had to adjust the climate controls in my current car since I bought it, aside from pressing the defrost button a few times. During that time outside temperatures have ranged from 15F to 110F, and my car is always comfortable inside. Even the heated steering wheel and heated seats are automatic, I haven't had to manually control those either. Automatic climate control has worked very well for me across 4 different models of cars ranging from a 2000 Honda Accord, a 2012 Ford Focus, a 2017 Hyundai Santa Fe, and a 2021 Mustang Mache E. All of them pretty much never required me to adjust it day to day, and I would go weeks to months without needing to do anything.
Given that you're talking about only being able to set the temperature selector down to 65, it sounds like you're doing automatic climate control wrong. You're going to have a bad experience if you're always setting it to max cold or max heat instead of just picking a comfortable temperature in the middle and letting the car get to that temp. Sure, it'll take a minute or two before it starts blowing air, because usually the AC needs to really start cranking before its doing anything or it takes a bit for the heater core to warm. During that time you're not really doing much blowing around the air, in fact you might make the experience in the car worse blowing non-conditioned air around.
Just like in your house, setting your AC unit to 60F isn't going to make your AC unit run harder. Do you go to your home thermostat and drag it all the way one way when you're warm, then drag it all the way to the other direction when you're cold? No, you set it for a comfortable temperature and let the system hold it there.
You're going to have a bad experience if you're always setting it to max cold or max heat instead of just picking a comfortable temperature in the middle and letting the car get to that temp.
That's the issue. Suppose the car is at an ambient temperature of 50 degrees. I get in and start it up. I want air that's just slightly warmer than ambient but I can't get it. If I set it to 65, I get hit with air that's probably 90 degrees until the whole car hits 65, meanwhile I'm sweating like it's high summer. If I set it to Low, the only setting below 65, it turns me into a frozen dinner. Generally I'm forced to keep the AC off and just be slightly cold because I have no direct control of the air that's hitting me. There's no way to tell the car to blow slightly warm air if the ambient temperature is below 65 degrees.
That's the issue. Suppose the car is at an ambient temperature of 50 degrees. I get in and start it up. I want air that's just slightly warmer than ambient but I can't get it. If I set it to 65, I get hit with air that's probably 90 degrees until the whole car hits 65, meanwhile I'm sweating like it's high summer. If I set it to Low, the only setting below 65, it turns me into a frozen dinner. Generally I'm forced to keep the AC off and just be slightly cold because I have no direct control of the air that's hitting me. There's no way to tell the car to blow slightly warm air if the ambient temperature is below 65 degrees.
Your car's automatic climate control system seems terribly designed and not like any one I've ever experienced. The climate control system on my Accord came out in 1996 and it behaved far superior to that. It doesn't just blow max heat/cold until the target temperature, it does a reasonable gradient of temperature differences until its the target temp keeping in mind some kind of comfort profile. This has been the way every other automatic climate control system I've used has behaved, I've never experienced it blasting heat/cold as hard as can be full bore, unless it legitimately needed that to keep up with the losses (having the windows open).
I'm sorry your experiences suck and you have to manually adjust your AC system dozens of times per drive to make your car comfortable. Personally though I see that as a massive step back, not an improvement. Would you mind sharing the make of car so I can be sure to avoid it?
Also, when talking about automatic climate control, do you also have it set to automatic fan speed as well, or just temperature? Maybe your system would perform better if you let it also control the fan speed if you aren't already. For my experiences I pretty much always let directionality, fan speed, and temperature set to be automatically controlled.
I'm sorry your experiences suck and you have to manually adjust your AC system dozens of times per drive to make your car comfortable. Personally though I see that as a massive step back, not an improvement. Would you mind sharing the make of car so I can be sure to avoid it?
Also, when talking about automatic climate control, do you also have it set to automatic fan speed as well, or just temperature? Maybe your system would perform better if you let it also control the fan speed if you aren't already. For my experiences I pretty much always let directionality, fan speed, and temperature set to be automatically controlled.
I'm glad to hear they're improving. Maybe by the time I have to replace my car I won't have any complaints.
I'm with the other guy - I've owned my car for 8 years and never touched the climate control except to set it to 24 in the winter and 22 in the summer. Otherwise I just let it do its thing, which works great. 2013 Audi A4, btw.
My top gripe about my wife's smart car: She sometimes leaves it with the radio on. A few seconds after bootup (starting the car), the radio starts playing. But it won't listen to the on/off button yet, not for several more seconds. So if I don't want the radio on, I have no way to shut it off until it will let me.
When I added a modern stereo with Android Auto/CarPlay to my 2003 vehicle, I found that many modern car stereos are designed to never be turned off. There was no off switch. So, if you start the car to let it warm while you shovel the driveway, you couldn't listen to your phone with bluetooth headphones, as it would connect to the car stereo, that you couldn't turn off with the car running.
I fixed it by wiring a simple toggle switch into the the power line for the stereo and mounting it in the dash. Problem fixed. "Off" shuts off the stereo instantly.
You might be able to read up on your model/package and do this, or consult a car stereo installation shop to do this.
I fixed it by wiring a simple toggle switch into the the power line for the stereo and mounting it in the dash. Problem fixed. "Off" shuts off the stereo instantly.
You might be able to read up on your model/package and do this, or consult a car stereo installation shop to do this.
Both my cars have that misfeature, but vary in details. Both take just long enough to start playing that they usually start blaring music as I'm backup up. Nor have I found any way to disable the feature on either. It took months for me to get into the habit of sitting and waiting for it to boot so I could turn it off before I start driving.
The Honda CR-V is like you say, it will only turn on if you had the radio on when the car was shut off (makes sense), but turns on long before it is capable of responding to the off button.
The Chevy Bolt infuriatingly turns on (almost) every time you get in the car regardless of whether the radio was on or not when you last used it. For the life of me I cannot figure out what heuristics cause it to (very rarely) not turn on. At least its off button is functional at the time it starts playing.
The Honda CR-V is like you say, it will only turn on if you had the radio on when the car was shut off (makes sense), but turns on long before it is capable of responding to the off button.
The Chevy Bolt infuriatingly turns on (almost) every time you get in the car regardless of whether the radio was on or not when you last used it. For the life of me I cannot figure out what heuristics cause it to (very rarely) not turn on. At least its off button is functional at the time it starts playing.
For the Bolt - was it connected to Bluetooth when the car turned off?
I don't know. My phone isn't paired with the car, but my wife's is. If I drive the grocery store and back, the radio will always turn on when I'm leaving the house (after the wife used it last), and it will usually (but not always) turn on as I'm leaving the grocery store. It is possible that the car is intermittently connecting with her phone (which is inside the house) before I leave. In any case though, it always starts up playing radio even if it was playing via bluetooth on the last trip (and that same phone connects with the same apps open).
Automatic climate control has been around for about 40 years and common for 20 years. There is no excuse for not getting it right in 2022. I had cars 20 years ago that had great auto climate control.
> I love having a dumb car.
Did you find a newish one?
Did you find a newish one?
Nope, mine's a 2007. Still going strong.
Strongly agree with this article. The car I love is my 1980 Datsun, but it just isn't good in the rain. My daily car is a Fiat 124 Spider. Reason I bought it was it was the least complicated, most direct driver-to-pavement, latest, fastest ride I could get for $20k with a stick shift. I won't buy an automatic. To Fiat's credit, I think they're the last manufacturer selling cars in America whose standard price is for a manual transmission and who charge extra for an automatic. (Which, let's be honest, only an idiot would buy an automatic on a 1.4L turbo that has to be kept revved to a sweet spot smaller than 1500 RPMs per gear).
There are four things that piss me off about the Spider. 1: Touch screen which I don't want lit up most of the time, but which doesn't respond to touch to turn it off while you're driving. 2: Stupid as hell autobrake comes on for 2 seconds if you clutch and brake on a hill over 8% grade. You have to toggle the emergency brake or do a heel-toe to not be pushing against your brakes when you start up off a hill. 3: It's beyond me how they could sell this car with a touch screen but without a boost gauge. 4: No ashtray.
There are four things that piss me off about the Spider. 1: Touch screen which I don't want lit up most of the time, but which doesn't respond to touch to turn it off while you're driving. 2: Stupid as hell autobrake comes on for 2 seconds if you clutch and brake on a hill over 8% grade. You have to toggle the emergency brake or do a heel-toe to not be pushing against your brakes when you start up off a hill. 3: It's beyond me how they could sell this car with a touch screen but without a boost gauge. 4: No ashtray.
>It's beyond me how they could sell this car with a touch screen but without a boost gauge.
Back in the days of our 80's datsuns, when upping the boost you definitely need to keep an eye on it. These days, ECUs have that under control, there will be a MAP sensor that monitors pressure and boost cut / limp mode will follow any overboost situation.
My late 2000s BMW for example had a weird compound turbo setup that, to its credit, could build 23psi in a second but if any of the actuators failed could be disasterous for the baby turbo. The ECU was smart enough to measure the normal boost profile and would throw a fault code if it was over/under spooling. The control logic was impressive, I was happy with the response and the intake was kept FOD free, even on the day one of the actuators failed open.
Back in the days of our 80's datsuns, when upping the boost you definitely need to keep an eye on it. These days, ECUs have that under control, there will be a MAP sensor that monitors pressure and boost cut / limp mode will follow any overboost situation.
My late 2000s BMW for example had a weird compound turbo setup that, to its credit, could build 23psi in a second but if any of the actuators failed could be disasterous for the baby turbo. The ECU was smart enough to measure the normal boost profile and would throw a fault code if it was over/under spooling. The control logic was impressive, I was happy with the response and the intake was kept FOD free, even on the day one of the actuators failed open.
Similarly, I'm making sure I get ever mile out of my 1993 Jeep Wrangler. It's rusting in places, but I absolutely love that I can service the car myself. It has never broken down in almost 30 years!
While not under $20k, the Subaru Impreza and Crosstrek are currently offered with a stick shift on the base trim, and for the Impreza Sport ($23k) it's offered standard with a stick, and an auto optional.
This may change soon to only be the WRX and BRZ with a stick shift next year, but currently their lineup is rather competitive for AWD compact cars.
This may change soon to only be the WRX and BRZ with a stick shift next year, but currently their lineup is rather competitive for AWD compact cars.
Were you ever comparing with a miata? I'm curious how they compare since its the same platform.
I was very close to buying a Miata of the same year, and test drove a couple. But the Fiat sold me. They look almost identical inside, but the driving experience is actually quite different. The Fiat is a little heavier and doesn't feel as squirrely while the Miata is a touch too light and doesn't hold the road as well. Mostly though, the difference is between the 1.4L turbo and the 2L naturally aspirated in the Miata. The Mazda has pretty much straight line torque from low RPMs. The Fiat is comparatively very weak at low RPM and takes more accuracy and skill to hold it at peak performance... but it's a monster when the boost kicks in. The Fiat also has more soundproofing so it's possible to actually hear music... sometimes. Finally, I think just because Fiats are virtually unknown in America, the price tag on a comparable model / miles was about $3k less for the Fiat.
Same with TVs, please. I can't find a single OLED on the market that doesn't have Android or some shitty Samsung OS installed on it.
I highly recommend TCL TVs. The remotes are super simple (with just the buttons you need), the UI is straightforward and you never have to connect to the internet. I’m on my second panel, only because I wanted to downsize from 65” to a 55” when I moved, and connected to an AppleTV it is a dream to use.
Edit, to add: the OLEDs aren’t to market yet… but they’re on the way!
Edit, to add: the OLEDs aren’t to market yet… but they’re on the way!
All of their products appear to be "smart". Why can't they just make a TV that is... a TV?
They may be labeled as smart, but they’re not nerfed at all if you don’t connect to the internet. And there are no notifications or interruptions trying to get you to connect. You can even just hook it up to a set of rabbit ears and set ‘antenna TV’ is your default mode and every time you turn the TV on it’ll go right to over-the-air programs. I’m a big fan, obviously, as I hate smart devices.
Edit: grammar.
Edit: grammar.
Because society wants smart TVs. You and a lot of people here don’t, but collectively, people like the idea of having Netflix/Hulu/etc right on their TVs. The cat’s out of the bag now. If you/me want a dumb TV, don’t look at consumer TVs in BestBuy, but expect to be spending over $1000.
That may be true, but you only need a ~10% share of the market to want a privacy-first (i.e. dumb) TV, and that'll at least keep the others in line. Sort of like the role Mozilla ought to play in the browser market.
Does society really want that or does it not realize that it doesn't have to be this way?
The alternative is a separate box (or something like a Fire Stick). But those became less of a thing once TV manufacturers started implementing them inside the box. And with that, it’s one less thing to buy (which consumers like).
If you tell customers that two TVs are identical except one doesn’t need a dongle for Netflix and is cheaper, they’ll choose the smart one.
If you tell customers that two TVs are identical except one doesn’t need a dongle for Netflix and is cheaper, they’ll choose the smart one.
They do... It is called "monitor".
Monitors and TV encode signals much, much differently.
How long does it take to turn on and start displaying the input video?
There was a previous HN thread where someone said they were attempting to make a dumb TV (a commercial endeavor) and others here said they were interested in working on that. I wonder where that effort is. Feels like there is a ready market for this product. I can't turn on my Vizio without it taking 10 minutes to check for updates, changing inputs take a minute. The Samsung keeps trying to update YouTube and some other apps which I've deleted hundreds of times before, there's probably 30MB of internal memory left. Nothing turns on instantly. More and more I feel like nothing I buy is ever the thing I really want, it's always a devil's bargain with the least-bad thing I can live with. Consumer-focused software, is that even a thing we make anymore.
Per chance, do you have a link to the thread?
I'm searching for it myself. There's been plenty of venting about "smart" TVs on HN in the past year. The fellow who wanted to start the project said he had a background in electronics, I should have stickied that thread.
I went with WebOS, so far the best of them, meaning the less painfull one.
WebOS is by far the least painful, but by no means good. You can disable some of the crap, but still it occasionally injects ads and other crap on top of the broadcast.
Nothing a well-configured pihole can't handle, but when I found out a $1700 TV is that awful I was livid.
Nothing a well-configured pihole can't handle, but when I found out a $1700 TV is that awful I was livid.
I learned to live with it, considering how bad the Android TV alternative is.
It has become really hard to get a proper dumb TV, if they aren't using the well known OSes, they bundle some custom firmware that also pretends to be smart anyway, most likely using some FOSS POSIX OS.
It has become really hard to get a proper dumb TV, if they aren't using the well known OSes, they bundle some custom firmware that also pretends to be smart anyway, most likely using some FOSS POSIX OS.
I have an LG TV with WebOS. The OS is fine, but the CPU is underpowered and has difficulty streaming video.
I usually describe my "smart" TV (and all of them, really) as a bargain basement smartphone with an incredibly nice screen. All of the same issues - bare minimum specs to operate the thing in a typical fashion, lack of software patches and bundled "apps" that stop getting updates after a couple of years, questionable privacy policies, etc.
Yeah that is definitely noticeable.
Have you looked at NEC commercial displays? For example:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1629170-REG/nec_e438_...
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1629170-REG/nec_e438_...
I've considered getting a monitor-style dumb display for my next TV, but the issue is that none of them have an inbuilt TV tuner. I get pretty fantastic reception at my current place in Queens and I'd hate to give up all my OTA channels and switch to something like Sling or YouTube TV, which again just brings back around all of the same pitfalls of a smart TV.
edit: just saw that the one you linked does have a tuner and remote! Brilliant! Might actually end up buying the 32 inch one, it's very reasonably priced.
edit: just saw that the one you linked does have a tuner and remote! Brilliant! Might actually end up buying the 32 inch one, it's very reasonably priced.
Samsung has TVs with the "smartness" in a separate box outside the TV and the display is just a display with one connector. Something like this should be a standard.
Do you by chance know the models?
Their high end premium TVs have had it since 2019 https://www.techradar.com/news/samsung-one-connect-box
The One Connect Box has all the ports including power, HDMI, ethernet, USB etc. and the TV has just one proprietary port where you connect the One Connect Box.
The One Connect Box has all the ports including power, HDMI, ethernet, USB etc. and the TV has just one proprietary port where you connect the One Connect Box.
> the TV has just one proprietary port where you connect the One Connect Box.
That is not a step forward.
That is not a step forward.
It is - at least you can then exchange the box with the ARM CPU when the new versions of Netfix and Youtube apps start requiring 16GB of memory and a teraflop CPU, without having to chuck a screen that works perfectly fine.
Of course you can also just by an external Nvidia Shield unit and connect it by HDMI, like you can now.
Of course you can also just by an external Nvidia Shield unit and connect it by HDMI, like you can now.
Does the display have a HDMI ports or only the connector box? If the screen has some, it would be awesome. If it is only the box it would be crap.
So it's the regular smart TV just its smartness - any any useful ports you'd want from a TV - comes in two parts?
I'm not sure that's what the parent commenter was asking for.
I'm not sure that's what the parent commenter was asking for.
I am just looking for a low tech TV for my grandmum as those boxes we need to run older TVs with modern TV signal always break.
The reality is, simple is only available in the luxury segment.
I am prolly going with a 'OK' brand one. Even thought I hated their ugly OS it is the only I've found so far that somewhat acts as a 'classic' TV.
The reality is, simple is only available in the luxury segment.
I am prolly going with a 'OK' brand one. Even thought I hated their ugly OS it is the only I've found so far that somewhat acts as a 'classic' TV.
Try Sceptre. They make TVs without the "smart" features (i.e. it's just a simple TV).
Check out Spectre. Decent enough screens, come in lots of sizes, all entirely dumb panels. Love mine and wouldn't trade it for any 'smart' TV.
Agreed. I recommend Roku TVs - at least the UX is simple and it doesn't spy on you or show you ads.
If you have a Roku TV, I would urge you to set up a pi hole to see how many queries it sends out. Mine blocks upwards of 10 per minute.
Doesn’t the Roku software spy on you and don’t they track what you are watching?
My pi hole's top blocked domain by some margin is is scribe.logs.roku.com, who knows what else it might be blocking or missing in addition to this.
What’s your gripe with android tvs? I hate Samsung for their ads but I own an android and have found it to be nothing less or more than what I need.
Collecting data, sometimes spamming the network with faulty code, some of them have cameras a lot of people don't even know about (since they blend in with the frame), and of course showing advertisements in your menu bars and sometimes when you start the TV.
Since when have we become complacent in subsidizing our product purchases with... more ads for other products? It's absolutely ludicrous.
Since when have we become complacent in subsidizing our product purchases with... more ads for other products? It's absolutely ludicrous.
They're constantly collecting data on anything you do on the TV, and that data is being sold to whoever wants it?
I would recommend checking out Dacia and Lada (coincidentally now both are now under Renault group)
https://www.renaultgroup.com/en/our-company/our-brands/dacia... https://www.renaultgroup.com/en/our-company/our-brands/lada/
https://www.renaultgroup.com/en/our-company/our-brands/dacia... https://www.renaultgroup.com/en/our-company/our-brands/lada/
Lada is known for its low reliability. Dacia seems to be in a more gray area, sometimes scoring well above average, sometimes below.
I know someone who had a Lada Niva, and he got stranded because a low quality pipe joint blew. True, the repair was extremely cheap, and it could probably be temporarily repaired with a hose and two zippers. Are you a mechanic that can locate and fix those kind of failures? Then Ladas are for you. You can't tell apart the windscreen fluid from the blinker fluid? Your Lada will spend more time in the repairshop than on the road.
I know someone who had a Lada Niva, and he got stranded because a low quality pipe joint blew. True, the repair was extremely cheap, and it could probably be temporarily repaired with a hose and two zippers. Are you a mechanic that can locate and fix those kind of failures? Then Ladas are for you. You can't tell apart the windscreen fluid from the blinker fluid? Your Lada will spend more time in the repairshop than on the road.
My opinion so far is that a lot of people buy Ladas (Niva to be exact) with expectation of it being an offroader. It is not. It is a SUV and when used like usually SUVs are - it isnt as unreliable as some people make it.
Lack of airbags, shitty structure to absorb impacts, absurdly underpowered engine and weird ergonomy makes the Lada Niva viable only for offroading: farmers and hunters driving on gravel roads.
If you expect to drive more than 50% of the time on asphalt but money is tight, do yourself a favour and buy at least a Dacia Duster.
If you expect to drive more than 50% of the time on asphalt but money is tight, do yourself a favour and buy at least a Dacia Duster.
That's quite interesting, as many of my friends in post-Soviet countries all rave about how you can run Ladas into the dirt and they'll keep running. Luck of the draw perhaps?
I picked up a Dacia Sandero a year back, seems pretty well-made. Very low-tech too, even has crank windows in back.
I think they are around the "good-tech" level, similar to late 90's / early 2000 cars. Just enough to get you going economically and comfortably but without tech intruding your ride with some infotainment, updates or window slide button in some weird place or with touch control.
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Dacias have gotten surprisingly good, yes. The initial models were... dubious, to say the least, but the recent offerings have had an amazing cost/quality ratio. Hell, their EV offerings are some of the best on the market.
I didn't think it bothered me until I read this and then thought of the biggest gripe with my Skoda Octavia and that is when the auto-start doesn't start in traffic and I end up on the receiving end of the beeping of obstructed drivers!
The specialist garage doesn't know what's wrong and I don't hold out much more hope for the main dealer who should know best but I've met people who work at main dealers.
What is annoying is that it seems to try to start and sometimes immediately stops like a stall. If you press the brake and let ago, it will try again but after this it tells you to restart the car so you have to move the transmission back to park, turn the key with your foot on the brake and then move back to drive to pull away. As you can imagine, this takes longer than it takes for the person behind to beep their horn. It makes it worse because I am usually looking down when it all kicks off so the people think I am not paying attention.
I can disable the auto-stop but it gets enabled when you go into Eco-mode so you have to remember this in traffic before the panic begins.
The specialist garage doesn't know what's wrong and I don't hold out much more hope for the main dealer who should know best but I've met people who work at main dealers.
What is annoying is that it seems to try to start and sometimes immediately stops like a stall. If you press the brake and let ago, it will try again but after this it tells you to restart the car so you have to move the transmission back to park, turn the key with your foot on the brake and then move back to drive to pull away. As you can imagine, this takes longer than it takes for the person behind to beep their horn. It makes it worse because I am usually looking down when it all kicks off so the people think I am not paying attention.
I can disable the auto-stop but it gets enabled when you go into Eco-mode so you have to remember this in traffic before the panic begins.
You can try shifting the steering wheel a little right before you’re about to go. The car will sense it and attempt to restart the engine. That might give you a little more time to restart the whole car if it fails to restart automatically.
On another note, are you seeing significant gains in fuel economy while running on Eco-mode?
On another note, are you seeing significant gains in fuel economy while running on Eco-mode?
The original VW Up dispensed with a screen beyond a small radio display, and just came with a mount for the smartphone you were bound to have with you. Cabin shot: https://cdn1.buyacar.co.uk/sites/buyacar/files/styles/galler...
That is a genuinely nice user interface. I can see what virtually everything is from a distance in the picture.
I especially like the larger fuel gauge; I drove a car once that had a handful of little LCD rectangles like a coarse bar graph. I struggled to tell if I had 50% or 75% left!
I especially like the larger fuel gauge; I drove a car once that had a handful of little LCD rectangles like a coarse bar graph. I struggled to tell if I had 50% or 75% left!
This is what Dacia proposes in their cars. They know it's better to have a basic system with a radio, bluetooth and a place to store your phone, that will stay up-to-date and usable for years to come (check early-2000s high-end cars GPS and entertainment systems for a laugh).
Apple CarPlay and Android Auto serve the same purpose these days, since they're effectively acting as an external monitor for your phone. The OEM doesn't have to keep anything up to date.
Just providing a "dumb" head unit with as close to zero features besides CarPlay and Android Auto would be sufficient to have a good user experience at this point, at least in the context of a "dumb car".
Last time I was on Android (~5 years ago), you could actually run Android Auto as an app on your phone, so a phone mount like that would be fine (even if not amazing), but Apple doesn't let you run CarPlay directly on your phone -- it only works with an external display designed for CarPlay, so a phone mount like this is notably worse for iPhone users. CarPlay's interface is much better designed for use in a vehicle than the regular iOS interface.
Phone mounts like that have the additional problem that smartphones have continued to grow and grow, and a lot of cars from 5 or 10 years ago that offer any kind of phone charging spot or phone mount can't fit most modern smartphones in the allocated spot... so phone mounts like that can become obsolete even without any electrical components whatsoever.
Just providing a "dumb" head unit with as close to zero features besides CarPlay and Android Auto would be sufficient to have a good user experience at this point, at least in the context of a "dumb car".
Last time I was on Android (~5 years ago), you could actually run Android Auto as an app on your phone, so a phone mount like that would be fine (even if not amazing), but Apple doesn't let you run CarPlay directly on your phone -- it only works with an external display designed for CarPlay, so a phone mount like this is notably worse for iPhone users. CarPlay's interface is much better designed for use in a vehicle than the regular iOS interface.
Phone mounts like that have the additional problem that smartphones have continued to grow and grow, and a lot of cars from 5 or 10 years ago that offer any kind of phone charging spot or phone mount can't fit most modern smartphones in the allocated spot... so phone mounts like that can become obsolete even without any electrical components whatsoever.
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Power seats are not a pointless luxury. I’m pretty sure they are continuously adjustable which is much better than trying to pull on some lever and get the seat to pop into approximately the right place. To say nothing of mulitple drivers with memorized positions etc.
Until the motor fails, or the tracks became "crusted", and you have no ability to adjust it anymore.
My car is nearing 20 so I live in fear of all of the motors failing, but none has so far.
Exactly, plus movement in more directions (up & down, didn't see a single car with manual adjustment that allowed this), very useful for us blessed with non-standard body dimensions (ie I am quite tall). It changes default-settings car where I touch roof with my head into one where there is more than 5cm/2" clearance.
Adjustable tightness of part of the seat above your hips which keeps you better in tight/fast curves. Heating for cold starts. Massage for luxury. My BMW has it all apart from massage and its makes longer drives much more pleasant.
Adjustable tightness of part of the seat above your hips which keeps you better in tight/fast curves. Heating for cold starts. Massage for luxury. My BMW has it all apart from massage and its makes longer drives much more pleasant.
I recently accidentally moved my seat waaaay up without realizing it when I was cleaning my car. I spent a week worrying about my weight because suddenly the seat belt seemed to have a lot less slack, and my stomach seemed closer to the wheel. Went to weigh myself an no increase.
when I figured out what I had done I laughed at myself for a solid 10 minutes
when I figured out what I had done I laughed at myself for a solid 10 minutes
Try your favorite image search engine and query "manual seat height adjustment" and you'll find dozens of brands that have this. Most use a lever that you pump up or down to adjust the height. Some use a dial.
I used to have a Neon many years ago that had the up-and-down adjustments for the seats - and it was all manual. You just turned a knob on the side at the base of the lever that allowed you to recline.
EDIT: It was still a tight fit for tall folks, though. In that particular car, the adjustment mostly helped short folks see better.
EDIT: It was still a tight fit for tall folks, though. In that particular car, the adjustment mostly helped short folks see better.
My mercedes has manual seats and it can go up and down, its got like a pump lever on the side.
> (up & down, didn't see a single car with manual adjustment that allowed this),
My 2010 Kia Soul has manual seats that can go up and down.
Although when the Kia Soul was first introduced, Kia threw almost every feature they could in it to win market share!
My 2010 Kia Soul has manual seats that can go up and down.
Although when the Kia Soul was first introduced, Kia threw almost every feature they could in it to win market share!
> Power seats are not a pointless luxury. I’m pretty sure they are continuously adjustable which is much better than trying to pull on some lever and get the seat to pop into approximately the right place. To say nothing of mulitple drivers with memorized positions etc.
YMMV, but I have no problem using mechanical adjustments. Power is no advantage for me.
YMMV, but I have no problem using mechanical adjustments. Power is no advantage for me.
Except when you go to slide your seat back as you're braking to a stop, and you find yourself skidding to a sudden and complete stop with the steering wheel in your chest.
Mechanical adjustment is fine for up-down, tilt (if it uses a dial), and lumbar, but for forward-back I prefer electric. Also because manual forward-back adjustments are very coarse.
Mechanical adjustment is fine for up-down, tilt (if it uses a dial), and lumbar, but for forward-back I prefer electric. Also because manual forward-back adjustments are very coarse.
I absolutely hate electronic seat adjustment. There is latency and no real tactile feedback like with mechanical seat adjustment.
Are all your chairs at home and office also powered?
Chairs at home and office aren't fixed in place to a vehicle that has a battery.
Ok, what about airplane or bus and train seats?
They are fixed in place to a vehicle with a battery, still you don't have them powered.
Not that car ones (powered, heating, massaging, etc.) are not nice and comfortable, only that they remain a form of luxury.
They are fixed in place to a vehicle with a battery, still you don't have them powered.
Not that car ones (powered, heating, massaging, etc.) are not nice and comfortable, only that they remain a form of luxury.
I don't drive planes nor busses. I'm a passenger: The back seat(s) of passenger cars are often fixed too. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the bus driver's seat is powered.
I do drive cars, though, and sometimes other people's cars. I'd much rather be able to adjust while driving so that I can have better control over the car than have to fumble with levers, which might propel me back far enough that I cannot brake. Heck, I might have been having to adjust because I didn't realize how far i needed to press the brake in the first place.
I do drive cars, though, and sometimes other people's cars. I'd much rather be able to adjust while driving so that I can have better control over the car than have to fumble with levers, which might propel me back far enough that I cannot brake. Heck, I might have been having to adjust because I didn't realize how far i needed to press the brake in the first place.
Well, you shouldn't start driving before having verified that you can reach all commands, and that brakes work, the standard checklist, JFYI:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29603532
Direct link:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/71bus/page1.jpg
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29603532
Direct link:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/71bus/page1.jpg
> what about airplane […] seats?
Modern business and first class seats are indeed powered.
Modern business and first class seats are indeed powered.
... and at the restaurant, cinema, etc.?
I think a lot of the smart car features have to do with legislation.
All new cars require a back up camera due to legislation. But a backup camera with a huge 8" screen is only useful for backing up. So the manufacturers try to use that screen real estate for infotainment when the car is moving forward.
All new cars require a back up camera due to legislation. But a backup camera with a huge 8" screen is only useful for backing up. So the manufacturers try to use that screen real estate for infotainment when the car is moving forward.
8" backup camera screen aren't required. I've seen some as small as about 4". The standard requires only that a certain spacing/size of objects behind the car is at least a certain visual angle. Screens in rear view mirrors and just below the bottom edge of the windscreen abound.
Small LCD screens embedded behind double glass in the rear-view mirror are common in the aftermarket backup camera sets. Any sufficiently-motivated car manufacturer could design something similar to meet regs without moving their controls to a central screen.
I had a F-250 with the backup camera screen in the rear view mirror. It was a factory option and it worked perfectly. Kept my eyes on the mirrors with additional feedback from the camera. It was most useful when hitching trailers.
My last two trucks have been lower trim packages to avoid the distracting screens and other "features" I don't need.
My last two trucks have been lower trim packages to avoid the distracting screens and other "features" I don't need.
Who is pushing/lobbying for that type of legislation? Isn't it a case of regulation helping the incumbents?
There are multiple long standing "Project 0" efforts in the US that aim to get pedestrian fatalities down to 0.
They have a range of goals including reducing Urban speed limits to 20-25mph and adding more safety features to cars.
Sad fact is modern giant SUVs have very poor rear visibility and children are just not visible if they are behind the vehicle. Backup cameras are the only reasonable option aside from "stop driving obscenely oversized vehicles."
(Another solution would be changing current laws so that 3 row station wagons were legal again, right now SUVs and Minivans fill a need that the 3 row station wagon used to, but it was legislated away long ago.)
They have a range of goals including reducing Urban speed limits to 20-25mph and adding more safety features to cars.
Sad fact is modern giant SUVs have very poor rear visibility and children are just not visible if they are behind the vehicle. Backup cameras are the only reasonable option aside from "stop driving obscenely oversized vehicles."
(Another solution would be changing current laws so that 3 row station wagons were legal again, right now SUVs and Minivans fill a need that the 3 row station wagon used to, but it was legislated away long ago.)
I imagine this organization and similar orgs. It would be interesting to see if the new legislation has helped decrease the number of backover accidents.
This appears to be an example of technology solving a design flaw rather than rent-seeking capitalism.
http://www.kidsandcars.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Backov...
This appears to be an example of technology solving a design flaw rather than rent-seeking capitalism.
http://www.kidsandcars.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Backov...
This is a great point. It's only logical. After all, a customer who doesn't want to use the infotainment system can ignore it, but the customers who want one will reject your automobile offering out of hand if you don't include one.
Mechanical things break and require lot of design, testing and validation. A screen solves that problem more efficiently and eliminates 100’s of other parts and wires that go to other buttons.
The screen in my Ford CMAX goes out on a regular basis. It appears to be trying to update its software, and hanging in the process. Eventually it comes back, but it could be weeks later. In the meantime, I have no backup camera, navigation, or radio.
Fortunately the HVAC is controlled via physical buttons.
Fortunately the HVAC is controlled via physical buttons.
Counterpoint: it locks all functionality behind a single point of failure, rendering all cabin controls useless simultaneously in the event of a failure of the screen or the upstream chain to the computer driving it (to say nothing of the distraction caused by a system you can't operate by feel with your eyes still on the road)
Says the bean counter overseeing a software project or industrial offering who has never grasped why those pesky customers assume they factor into a product offering anyway.
My favorite car, ever, was a ‘96 Tercel my mother gave me (she was literally going to junk it). It was completely mechanical and analog, and I absolutely loved it. It was fun, reliable, and dead simple to maintain and
operate. Only things I did to upgrade it was to install an aftermarket audio system so I could use my smartphone with it, and I installed slightly wider tires to give it a bit more stability. It reliably got 36-40 mpg on regular gas, and since everything was mechanical (even down to the rack-and-pinion steering), nothing ever broke, ever. That thing had about 400,000 miles on the odo before I sold it. Good times.
I'm fine with a touch screen for things like rear camera and plugging in a smart phone, but I want actual volume, temperature, and fan speed knobs.
I also want all of the information about the car I can get. For example, I don't want a "tire low light", I want an air pressure in each tire with an flashing indicator that its out of safe range. I don't want an "overheat", I want the temperature and big flashing when its out of range.
I do wish for a HUD just because I want my eyes on the road, but I think that's a lost dream.
I dearly wish someone would design a car for easy repairs, but we all know that isn't a profit positive thing.
I also want all of the information about the car I can get. For example, I don't want a "tire low light", I want an air pressure in each tire with an flashing indicator that its out of safe range. I don't want an "overheat", I want the temperature and big flashing when its out of range.
I do wish for a HUD just because I want my eyes on the road, but I think that's a lost dream.
I dearly wish someone would design a car for easy repairs, but we all know that isn't a profit positive thing.
My 1992 Miata came with an honest-to-god oil pressure gauge in it, that gave you real oil pressure readings. The pressure gauge moves back and forth with engine RPMs, because the oil pump is driven off of the engine. More RPM = more oil pressure. That's how cars work.
In 1994, Mazda removed it, and put in a "Dumb" gauge. It looks like a gauge, but really is either on above a certain PSI or off below that. They did this because so many people were bringing in their cars for service because they didn't understand how the real pressure gauge worked, and thought something was wrong.
There are actually lots of cars like this. My Ford Explorer has a dumb oil pressure gauge. My Honda Fit doesn't even have a coolant temp gauge. So I only know when the thing gets too hot, or if the coolant is too cold. Can't tell if the car starts running hotter than normal to catch a problem before it destroys something.
In 1994, Mazda removed it, and put in a "Dumb" gauge. It looks like a gauge, but really is either on above a certain PSI or off below that. They did this because so many people were bringing in their cars for service because they didn't understand how the real pressure gauge worked, and thought something was wrong.
There are actually lots of cars like this. My Ford Explorer has a dumb oil pressure gauge. My Honda Fit doesn't even have a coolant temp gauge. So I only know when the thing gets too hot, or if the coolant is too cold. Can't tell if the car starts running hotter than normal to catch a problem before it destroys something.
The dummy gauge in the 1993 Miata is part of the reason I ended up buying a '92. Having a real oil pressure gauge just makes the car feel so much more accessible and 'real'.
As an aside, the 'dummy gauge' is arguably worse than a lamp because it's much easier to overlook a needle being out of range than it is a light that's always off suddenly being on.
The first generation Miata is an amazingly fun car to drive - it's not fast, but it feels 100% mechanical (even though there are a few computers in the engine).
As an aside, the 'dummy gauge' is arguably worse than a lamp because it's much easier to overlook a needle being out of range than it is a light that's always off suddenly being on.
The first generation Miata is an amazingly fun car to drive - it's not fast, but it feels 100% mechanical (even though there are a few computers in the engine).
I have a 93 Miata and I love those kinds of things about it. Even the odometer is mechanical. I love how real and direct cars from that era feel. In contrast, I’m always discouraged when for example I try to figure out how to even make the radio work in my girlfriend’s 2017 Odyssey.
Lexus has models with a HUD. It was far less useful than I expected. It displays just a compass, digital speedometer, and indicators for cruise control and lane assist.
No directions for the route finder? That sounds really lame. The BMW HUD is much more useful, if you have a route going on, the turn instructions appear on the windshield.
If it does, then only with the built-in map. No CarPlay support.
My 2016 Honda CR-V has everything in your first paragraph. I think Honda and Mazda are doing a good job of balancing physical controls versus touchscreen.
Checkout Mazda3. Hud with navigation is awesome to use.
Familiar complaints in Dan Neil's WSJ review of the VW Golf R this weekend:
> After a week of fun and wild-eyed frustration with the 2022 Volkswagen Golf R ... I was ready to scold VW’s product planners. Never has so good a car been so let down by its touchscreen, software and switchgear.
> But I just don’t have the heart. It’s not like the R’s deciders wanted to put a one-eyed, lowest-bidder monstrosity smack in the middle of their flagship Golf R .... But they had a number to hit, a belt to tighten, and nobody was going home until they did.
> ... The VW system’s boot-up is interminable; operators must wait many long seconds in the morning before they can adjust simple things like fan speed and seat heaters. The touchscreen response is like an ATM from the 1990s. The thin horizontal sliders for volume and cabin temperature are not illuminated so they are hard to see at night.
wsj.com/articles/2022-vw-golf-r-sporty-stylish-not-the-best-ux-11643317829
> After a week of fun and wild-eyed frustration with the 2022 Volkswagen Golf R ... I was ready to scold VW’s product planners. Never has so good a car been so let down by its touchscreen, software and switchgear.
> But I just don’t have the heart. It’s not like the R’s deciders wanted to put a one-eyed, lowest-bidder monstrosity smack in the middle of their flagship Golf R .... But they had a number to hit, a belt to tighten, and nobody was going home until they did.
> ... The VW system’s boot-up is interminable; operators must wait many long seconds in the morning before they can adjust simple things like fan speed and seat heaters. The touchscreen response is like an ATM from the 1990s. The thin horizontal sliders for volume and cabin temperature are not illuminated so they are hard to see at night.
wsj.com/articles/2022-vw-golf-r-sporty-stylish-not-the-best-ux-11643317829
It should be illegal to make cars with high latency UIs. It routinely takes 1+ seconds for touchscreen button presses to be registered on my 2015 and 2018 Toyotas. This leads to erroneous actions being performed, which is not safe. If I were a software engineer on these teams I would quit if these systems were released on my watch.
Seriously. Computing hardware is an order of magnitude more powerful than in the early 2000s, but the latency bar has never been raised the entire time. You could buy a $1000 TV and it has the same lag while changing channels as the gen 1 720p flatscreen you had in 2005. Manufacturers collectively realized they can get away with substandard products since consumers have no real choice in the marketplace for a lot of products beyond the competitors who have already raced down to the bottom years ago.
Good point. The Toshiba Amazon Fire 4k TV we inherited from my MIL also has atrocious lag. Oh yeah, it also sometimes forgets to do HiHDPI scaling and the UI is consigned to the upper left corner of the screen until a reboot. Utter garbage.
It's worse than "erroneous actions being performed". It leads to the driver watching the UI for a second, which, unless you're stopped, is much too long.
I'm beginning to think it's on purpose. It seems impossible to me that cars can't handle PlayStation 2 levels of UI. Perhaps it's done to dissuade you from chaining together interactions. Rather, they want you to do one action, then look at the road while it's loading and then do the next action etc.
Having worked on such software: I wish it was on purpose...
Sure, people want simple, but simple is very subjective.
I want simple, +Bluetooth Audio
I want simple, +rear Camera
I want simple, +Cruise Control
I want simple, ....
https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/03/23/strategy-letter-iv...
I want simple, +Bluetooth Audio
I want simple, +rear Camera
I want simple, +Cruise Control
I want simple, ....
https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/03/23/strategy-letter-iv...
It's really not that subjective. Take the feature set of mass-market cars from 2000 - 2008 and then just ... stop. That's your baseline. There's nothing magic about the 2000s it's just happens to be the era juuuust before people started complaining about smart features in cars.
* Media controls are handled by swappble receivers that can handle anything from tapes to Bluetooth and satellite radio depending on your preference. Everything else is physical nobs and buttons.
* Cars have cruise control, hydraulic power steering, probably power windows, push to start as an aftermarket add-on, and probably remote lock/unlock.
Broke teenagers in the early 2000s were able to figure out "basic car with add-ons." It's amazing that huge corporations can't manage.
* Media controls are handled by swappble receivers that can handle anything from tapes to Bluetooth and satellite radio depending on your preference. Everything else is physical nobs and buttons.
* Cars have cruise control, hydraulic power steering, probably power windows, push to start as an aftermarket add-on, and probably remote lock/unlock.
Broke teenagers in the early 2000s were able to figure out "basic car with add-ons." It's amazing that huge corporations can't manage.
It's like you completely missed the point of Joel's blog
No I just disagree that it applies here. Because these mass-market cars really existed (you can still buy most of them) — they all had basically the same feature sets, the same options packages by different names, sold like hotcakes, and nobody complained about bloat.
In the car market you actually can get 80% of the sales with 80% of the features in defiance of Joel. That’s Honda and Toyota’s bread and butter.
In the car market you actually can get 80% of the sales with 80% of the features in defiance of Joel. That’s Honda and Toyota’s bread and butter.
> For media, an aux input does it all. Doubles as a charging cable, and you could easily swap it out for different and new devices
I thought aux only carries analog sound, is charging a new feature? Did I miss Aux-C? What does the author mean?
I thought aux only carries analog sound, is charging a new feature? Did I miss Aux-C? What does the author mean?
Some more:
> Not to mention the privacy and security concerns. I was dubious the first time I saw a GPS in a car, my mom’s old RX300, about 20 years ago. “Yeah… that’s how they get you,” I thought
Well, that reasoning was flawed 20 years ago - GPS means YOU know where you are, not the other way around. There has to be other communication channel for that data to "escape". If your car is data-enabled with SIM card, only then it is a concern.
> Not to mention the privacy and security concerns. I was dubious the first time I saw a GPS in a car, my mom’s old RX300, about 20 years ago. “Yeah… that’s how they get you,” I thought
Well, that reasoning was flawed 20 years ago - GPS means YOU know where you are, not the other way around. There has to be other communication channel for that data to "escape". If your car is data-enabled with SIM card, only then it is a concern.
Yup, and anyone with a heartbeat figured that out at some point in the last 20 years. Yet the article also says
> Not having GPS or data (or hidden microphones or cameras) also makes your vehicle feel more private, obviously.
I can't exclude the possibility that the author is a moron, but I suspect it's just outrage-bait. Like that whole article.
> Not having GPS or data (or hidden microphones or cameras) also makes your vehicle feel more private, obviously.
I can't exclude the possibility that the author is a moron, but I suspect it's just outrage-bait. Like that whole article.
For vehicles with an inbuilt cellular connection like OnStar or Starlink or any of the myriad of other systems like them, the vehicle will regularly phone home your GPS fix from time to time and there is no way to turn it off. I think this is what the author was trying to get at but phrased it poorly due to it being sort of a technicality.
How?
Escape channel is called internet, not GPS. Obviously if your car has Internet and GPS, it can do it.
But if you had only starlink dish on your car, without GPS, I wouldn't be surprised if it was technically possible to track location to some degree of accuracy.
Escape channel is called internet, not GPS. Obviously if your car has Internet and GPS, it can do it.
But if you had only starlink dish on your car, without GPS, I wouldn't be surprised if it was technically possible to track location to some degree of accuracy.
He means a typical usb data connection.
Friend of mine called me from his rental car asking why his phone notifications were still coming through the car despite having Bluetooth turned off.
Of course he was charging his phone from the built in USB port and it was actually a data port.
Friend of mine called me from his rental car asking why his phone notifications were still coming through the car despite having Bluetooth turned off.
Of course he was charging his phone from the built in USB port and it was actually a data port.
There are some devices that are charged with aux cables, although it is rare. I think that is a bad solution because they almost always cause a short circuit when connecting/disconnecting. Usually that is neglected for audio signals because the power is quite low and devices have respective protections, but if you would use it for charging...
I generally didn’t agree with the article.
I have found that my Toyota Corolla Hybrid has about the right mix of smart and dumb (in terms of dials and knobs), and again in disagreement to the article .. I love my digital speedo! It’s high up on the dash and closer to the road, compared to my old space-wasting meters that were more difficult to read.
And the concern about the GPS in our cars invading our privacy.. this would really only concern a certain type of paranoid person. Most people don’t care. I certainly prefer the fully integrated GPS, that dims the radio and such whenever I need to do something. Removing it certainly won’t make any car fly off the shelves! Bad analysis.
I have found that my Toyota Corolla Hybrid has about the right mix of smart and dumb (in terms of dials and knobs), and again in disagreement to the article .. I love my digital speedo! It’s high up on the dash and closer to the road, compared to my old space-wasting meters that were more difficult to read.
And the concern about the GPS in our cars invading our privacy.. this would really only concern a certain type of paranoid person. Most people don’t care. I certainly prefer the fully integrated GPS, that dims the radio and such whenever I need to do something. Removing it certainly won’t make any car fly off the shelves! Bad analysis.
My country's market is dominated by second-hand Japanese imports, a lot of the integrated navigation / entertainment systems are entirely useless if you're not driving in Japan, or can't read Japanese.
When my 2005 Mazda MPV suffered a flat battery, the centre console screen which was the navigation / radio / clock / DVD player (yes, really) was bricked, and to this day displays a message in Japanese asking you to please insert the manufacturer's navigation data CD to continue using it.
Which no-one has access to, not even in Japan (my brother has been living there for about ten years, and is very helpful for obscure parts requests), so now my radio and clock don't work, because I don't have a CD with data needed for a 16 year old navigation system that, when working, was thoroughly convinced I was driving long distances on the bottom of Tokyo Bay and was desperate for me to turn right and get back on dry land.
When my 2005 Mazda MPV suffered a flat battery, the centre console screen which was the navigation / radio / clock / DVD player (yes, really) was bricked, and to this day displays a message in Japanese asking you to please insert the manufacturer's navigation data CD to continue using it.
Which no-one has access to, not even in Japan (my brother has been living there for about ten years, and is very helpful for obscure parts requests), so now my radio and clock don't work, because I don't have a CD with data needed for a 16 year old navigation system that, when working, was thoroughly convinced I was driving long distances on the bottom of Tokyo Bay and was desperate for me to turn right and get back on dry land.
New Zealand?
My Dad's old Subaru Legacy used its display to show Japan rotating around as we turned corners, us always in the sea.
I'm onto my second 2005 Mazda MPV (they're great cars). This time I've replaced the head unit with one of those nasty cheap Android things. Basically a confused tablet with some extra hardware, running any mapping or other app you want.
My Dad's old Subaru Legacy used its display to show Japan rotating around as we turned corners, us always in the sea.
I'm onto my second 2005 Mazda MPV (they're great cars). This time I've replaced the head unit with one of those nasty cheap Android things. Basically a confused tablet with some extra hardware, running any mapping or other app you want.
Haha, yep, NZ, and the 2005 MPV :D
That's not a bad idea at all on the head.
That's not a bad idea at all on the head.
There's a good Geekzone thread on head unit installation. Especially useful if you want to keep the factory reverse camera operating. Note the camera needs 6V. Voltage conversion boards are ultra cheap on aliexpress or if you're in Wellington you could have one from my stash :)
Thank you for the kind offer :)
I don't have a factory camera, but would be worth doing a third party one, the visibility while reversing is rather poor as soon as you get teenagers sitting in the back.
I don't have a factory camera, but would be worth doing a third party one, the visibility while reversing is rather poor as soon as you get teenagers sitting in the back.
Most people have no idea that their car with telematics features (ie Onstar or similar) is almost constantly reporting their location and a slew of parameters back to the manufacturer.
This is true regardless of whether you have a telematics subscription. The subscription just enables the stuff you can actually use.
Manufacturers are monetizing that information, selling it to anyone who wants to buy it. I know someone that worked for a company using said data to try and enhance weather reporting (the data reported back includes outside air temperature, headlights, windshield wiper status, etc.) They were receiving data from multiple manufacturers.
This is true regardless of whether you have a telematics subscription. The subscription just enables the stuff you can actually use.
Manufacturers are monetizing that information, selling it to anyone who wants to buy it. I know someone that worked for a company using said data to try and enhance weather reporting (the data reported back includes outside air temperature, headlights, windshield wiper status, etc.) They were receiving data from multiple manufacturers.
My 1999 Honda CR-V I bought in college still runs and I love the simplicity of the interface. Air controls are a three evenly spaced knobs and a few buttons. The instrument cluster has everything you need with easy to read physical gauges (though I do wish it had battery voltage like my 92 Jeep did). The interface has aged super well because of its simplicity -- it doesn't feel outdated.
I replaced the stereo with the cheapest CarPlay unit I can find for navigation, phone charging, and media playback. I love this too since my only screen-based ui in the car gets updates with every new iOS.
I replaced the stereo with the cheapest CarPlay unit I can find for navigation, phone charging, and media playback. I love this too since my only screen-based ui in the car gets updates with every new iOS.
I would kill for Ye Olde Manually Wound windows. Electric windows struggle in temperature extremes, and seem to break down far more often than my old hand-cranked windows ever did.
Also, I had more precise control with the hand-crank.
Also, I had more precise control with the hand-crank.
The only thing I don't like about crank windows is it's hard to roll down the passenger window while driving.
I've actually got 2 cars with crank windows and am in the process of converting one of them to power windows just because it doesn't have AC and I want an easier way to manage the windows.
I've actually got 2 cars with crank windows and am in the process of converting one of them to power windows just because it doesn't have AC and I want an easier way to manage the windows.
Time is running out for those. I have a car that is now over 20 years old (awesome car, I will miss it once it fails) and even that had electric windows in the most basic variant. Of course they will fail in winter regularly...
Bought it 7 years ago for less than a modern GPU currently costs. If you have a mechanic as a friend it can be extremely cheap to own a car. I wonder how the used market will look in the future, I guess prices will be a lot higher and many not security related features will be broken.
Buying a car > $15,000 is always idiotic if you do in any way care about losing $15,000 in my opinion. If you don't care about the money, a happy spending to you. Otherwise get a company car that is financed by other tax payers.
Bought it 7 years ago for less than a modern GPU currently costs. If you have a mechanic as a friend it can be extremely cheap to own a car. I wonder how the used market will look in the future, I guess prices will be a lot higher and many not security related features will be broken.
Buying a car > $15,000 is always idiotic if you do in any way care about losing $15,000 in my opinion. If you don't care about the money, a happy spending to you. Otherwise get a company car that is financed by other tax payers.
The saddenning part that the majority of the drivers are very proud and enjoy their electronic windows. I guess potentially manual windows could be an option in the new cars, but I'm afraid the most of the new car buyers prefer as much of gimmicks in their cars, about which they could boast right after their purchase. The adults are really just children with the thicker wallets.
The saddenning part that the majority of the drivers are very proud and enjoy their electronic windows.
Much like I enjoy the electric starter on the car, such that I do not need to crank it by hand to start it. I'm "proud and enjoy" my electric starter and windows, and make absolutely no apology for doing so. You want to warm your house with a fire started by flint and tinder, have at it; I'll be over here with my gimmicky heat pump.
Much like I enjoy the electric starter on the car, such that I do not need to crank it by hand to start it. I'm "proud and enjoy" my electric starter and windows, and make absolutely no apology for doing so. You want to warm your house with a fire started by flint and tinder, have at it; I'll be over here with my gimmicky heat pump.
Why is it sad that people enjoy a thing? They enjoy it because it works and is less of a pain in the vast majority of cases. That is not sad, that is a good thing.
It's sad because there are people who also hate it while they don't really have an option to use a product that fits them. Unless of course one is advised to buy Lada or Mustang 69.
People generally like apps that switch on the lights in the living room. Also they like to keep still on slowly moving escalator (yes even down), because it looks that a biggest joy for a consumer is to be able to lose any tactile and physical agency, presumably to conserve their energy that they so badly lack.
For the record, I hate electric windows, because of insensitivity of the button, it's almost impossible to open the window by few millimeters only (just to allow air circulation to avoid condensation on windows). Or in winter if it freezes to the frame, I want to be able to open without a need of warming it up first. Or not to buy the entire lifting mechanism because a 2$ plastic piece brakes inside. I understand the few uses of electrical window, but those can simply be fixed by avoiding farting inside a car, or politely asking the culprit to open their window themselves.
For the record, I hate electric windows, because of insensitivity of the button, it's almost impossible to open the window by few millimeters only (just to allow air circulation to avoid condensation on windows). Or in winter if it freezes to the frame, I want to be able to open without a need of warming it up first. Or not to buy the entire lifting mechanism because a 2$ plastic piece brakes inside. I understand the few uses of electrical window, but those can simply be fixed by avoiding farting inside a car, or politely asking the culprit to open their window themselves.
Knew a fellow whose car flipped into a shallow lake on a dark rainy night. The warning signs for a turn beside the lake had been removed. He was trapped in the car and drowned. Perhaps with hand-crank windows he'd have survived.
I buy only vehicles with hand-cranked windows.
I buy only vehicles with hand-cranked windows.
Hopefully the crank doesn't snap off. I've seen that, too. It is also possible for the door handle mechanism to fracture. Sorry for your trauma. Upside down in water is generally a very difficult scenario to survive, no matter what vehicle you're in.
Me and my family members have had multiple window motors fail, due to leaves falling in between the window and the gasket, on completely different car manufacturers.
I have an entirely unreasonable fear of getting stuck in my car as it slowly sinks, unable to open the windows. It makes me want to get hand-cranked windows.
According to Mythbusters [1] it's almost impossible to wind down the windows in a sinking car after it reaches a certain depth. Much better is to have a window breaker tool. You can have one which doubles as a seat belt slicer too.
[1] https://mythresults.com/episode72
Oh no you don't want them
I've had cars with electric and manual windows. I'm 27 (so you don't think I have been biased by a lifetime of manual) and I prefer manual crank in all but a single use case: the situation where I want to wind up or down the passenger side window.
the feature to have the window open itself fully after a long-pull of the button feels safer to me in certain situations - means I don't have to spend a few seconds with my dominant hand off the wheel
(and also more convenient in other situations where I need to quickly open the window and actively drive at the same time, e.g. toll booths, drive thru's)
(and also more convenient in other situations where I need to quickly open the window and actively drive at the same time, e.g. toll booths, drive thru's)
I wait until I'm stopped to wind up or down the passenger side window, having an electric equivalent would save me.. actually 0 time. You have to stop at a toll booth to pay the toll, you have to stop at a drive thru to pay and collect your order. It's purely a convenience mechanism to save perhaps 3 seconds of time in the event it's really super hyper critical it's rolled down before stopping (for whatever arbitrary reason).
Oh yes, I do. Like I want wipers working at a constant interval.
My 2019 Kia Stinger has physical gauges and every single thing I need for actually driving is a physical button, knob or dial. Yes, there is a touchscreen, however that is 99% of the time I am in the car connected to my phone, so basically just an external screen for my phone (which I would otherwise have to dangle in some phone holder somewhere). Also, all of the driving "aids" remember the last setting they were set to, so I don't have to disable them every time I sit into the car, which is a common problem with new cars.
There is also an issue with "standardization" of commands.
I have been driving since a lot of time, what happened to me lately a couple of times was that renting a car it takes me some time (I mean 10-15 minutes) to get a minimal confidence with commands and features of the UI, besides the most basic ones that thankfully remain the same, there are lots of them that are, in different make/models, completely different, and I am always scared that I can by mistake enable or disable this or that "smart" thing.
I have been driving since a lot of time, what happened to me lately a couple of times was that renting a car it takes me some time (I mean 10-15 minutes) to get a minimal confidence with commands and features of the UI, besides the most basic ones that thankfully remain the same, there are lots of them that are, in different make/models, completely different, and I am always scared that I can by mistake enable or disable this or that "smart" thing.
This is a major reason I’ll probably never buy a Tesla. I do not want my car to connect to the manufacturer via Internet nor have anything complex enough to justify over-the-air updates. (I also feel similarly about most home appliances.)
Reading this made me happy I recently purchased a SUV with big, boring, rubberized knobs that I find myself adjusting without having to look while driving.
One addition to the smart tech a dumb car could benefit from - radar cruise control. Increasingly offered on new models and reduces cognitive workload of highway driving.
One addition to the smart tech a dumb car could benefit from - radar cruise control. Increasingly offered on new models and reduces cognitive workload of highway driving.
Hear hear. I sold my old 2004 Skoda Fabia (which for Americans has the technology of a 2000 VW golf), since repairs were costing more and the car sharing here in Amsterdam is really becoming reliable for the few times I need a car. Recently I rented a car for a ski trip, a recent Jeep Renegade, oh my lord.
It was constantly trying to take the controls from me (god forbid you change lanes without signaling on a totally empty road!), the dashboard screen was constantly changing, and dynamically listed the speed limit in two places, but often it was completely wrong and sometimes it didn't even agree with itself. I am still not clear what it was trying to tell me. The console screen was 'dumb' in the bad way, and would lose connection with my phone constantly, but you couldn't re-connect it because you're not allowed to do that while driving. The interface was of course badly designed and slow to respond, so changing radio stations was a nightmare (which I had to do because my phone wouldn't connect. In the end I just used my ear-free headphones since it was easier.
My old Skoda had none of this. Real dials / gauges, simple physical climate controls, and a hole which you can put a stereo head unit in (I put the dumbest one I could find with bluetooth in for €40). I had a strong magsafe mount for my phone and done.
It was constantly trying to take the controls from me (god forbid you change lanes without signaling on a totally empty road!), the dashboard screen was constantly changing, and dynamically listed the speed limit in two places, but often it was completely wrong and sometimes it didn't even agree with itself. I am still not clear what it was trying to tell me. The console screen was 'dumb' in the bad way, and would lose connection with my phone constantly, but you couldn't re-connect it because you're not allowed to do that while driving. The interface was of course badly designed and slow to respond, so changing radio stations was a nightmare (which I had to do because my phone wouldn't connect. In the end I just used my ear-free headphones since it was easier.
My old Skoda had none of this. Real dials / gauges, simple physical climate controls, and a hole which you can put a stereo head unit in (I put the dumbest one I could find with bluetooth in for €40). I had a strong magsafe mount for my phone and done.
I can see why you might feel silly indicating on an empty road, but personally I find indicating to be such an integral and effortless part of turning or changing lane that I always indicate even if I can't see anyone about. By comparison, when drivers are making judgement calls about whether it's necessary to indicate, I'm often suprised by their unexpected movements. This is particularly true as a pedestrian as some drivers seem prone to not indicating if there isn't another vehicle behind them.
I totally agree with you... but I disagree that the car should be the enforcer of this behavior (unless there is actual danger of hitting a barrier, other car, etc). Drivers should not have an adversarial relationship with their cars.
On a winding two lane (same direction) mountain road with light snow and no traffic, it's silly to tell the car 'I am going to cross this stripe now' to avoid the car trying to steer me into the barrier. I am constantly driving on top of the lane lines to avoid snow, ice, minimize breaking, and generally drive smoothly so as not to put unneeded forces on a car in icy conditions. Edge case? Yes, but there are tons of them.
Examples (imagine snowy conditions at night):
https://goo.gl/maps/bs6wRGZNywz39RgD8
https://goo.gl/maps/XHHkGx9xtg8y9UWt6
On a winding two lane (same direction) mountain road with light snow and no traffic, it's silly to tell the car 'I am going to cross this stripe now' to avoid the car trying to steer me into the barrier. I am constantly driving on top of the lane lines to avoid snow, ice, minimize breaking, and generally drive smoothly so as not to put unneeded forces on a car in icy conditions. Edge case? Yes, but there are tons of them.
Examples (imagine snowy conditions at night):
https://goo.gl/maps/bs6wRGZNywz39RgD8
https://goo.gl/maps/XHHkGx9xtg8y9UWt6
"I always indicate even if I can't see anyone about."
Well of course. "Nobody else is here" looks the same to you (and me) as "I haven't seen that other road user", and in the event that you haven't seen the other road user, the only chance they have is for them to take action and they really, really need the warning of your indicator lights.
Well of course. "Nobody else is here" looks the same to you (and me) as "I haven't seen that other road user", and in the event that you haven't seen the other road user, the only chance they have is for them to take action and they really, really need the warning of your indicator lights.
Absolutely. Indicate all the time, even when not needed. It trains you to indicate when it is definitely needed, and prevents me from having to yell at you because you suddenly jerked to the lane I was on without any warnings.
I've had this experience with rental cars recently. It's terrifying! I usually spend half an hour in the parking lot sifting through menus turning off all the warnings I can find.
I like Skodas. Although a Czech friend told me that Skoda in Czech is a car name, a common surname, and a casual term for "idiot".
I like Skodas. Although a Czech friend told me that Skoda in Czech is a car name, a common surname, and a casual term for "idiot".
The translation is not idiot, but misfortune, damage or pity (Schade for German friends). Funny name for sure.
Hah. Noted - my friend's English is not the best, but I think his example was like a someone tripping over something in the street. He physically performed something, and I guess I misunderstood! Ah sorry for butchering another language ;)
It reminds me of one time I was sitting in a bar in Spain, and a chicken walked inside. And it was a female chicken, not a rooster, so I thought it should be "polla" instead of "pollo". So I waved at the bartender and said "Mira! Está una polla en la barra!" and all the guys in the bar started roaring with laughter because "pollo" is male or female for any chicken, but "polla" in Spain does mean slang for "idiot". After that every time I'd walk into that bar they'd ask if I saw a "polla" hahahahah
It reminds me of one time I was sitting in a bar in Spain, and a chicken walked inside. And it was a female chicken, not a rooster, so I thought it should be "polla" instead of "pollo". So I waved at the bartender and said "Mira! Está una polla en la barra!" and all the guys in the bar started roaring with laughter because "pollo" is male or female for any chicken, but "polla" in Spain does mean slang for "idiot". After that every time I'd walk into that bar they'd ask if I saw a "polla" hahahahah
I love my 2014 Skoda. It is the most boring car I have ever owned. It just does exactly what I want every time without fail and is never 'surprising' or 'interesting' or 'fun'.
> dynamically listed the speed limit in two places, but often it was completely wrong and sometimes it didn't even agree with itself
I had a rental car last year that did this. One speed limit is the (often outdated) speed limit it picks up from the navigation system's maps, and the second in the most recent speed limit sign the cameras OCR'd.
The speed limit from the maps is invariably wrong as soon as you turn off a major road, and the cameras seem to miss about every 3rd speed limit sign...
I had a rental car last year that did this. One speed limit is the (often outdated) speed limit it picks up from the navigation system's maps, and the second in the most recent speed limit sign the cameras OCR'd.
The speed limit from the maps is invariably wrong as soon as you turn off a major road, and the cameras seem to miss about every 3rd speed limit sign...
> Teslas with missed payments drive themselves to be impounded. Welcome to the future.
Is this real? That sounds like a terrible terrible idea, can’t imagine any government body allowing this.
Is this real? That sounds like a terrible terrible idea, can’t imagine any government body allowing this.
Yeah I can't imagine it either. With the current state of its "self-driving" technology, the Tesla would probably cause several accidents on the way to the impound lot.
> Enough already. Make a car that’s pretty much all dumb and watch it sell
That's all that you need to know that the author is a tech blogger and not a car salesman.
That's all that you need to know that the author is a tech blogger and not a car salesman.
Yup - I don't think they know much about what car purchasers actually pay attention to.
People will continue to buy "smart" cars until both of the following happen: (1) they pull themselves out of purchase apathy and start caring about the quality of their purchases and (2) the information asymmetry favoring automakers is substantially reduced.
Incidentally, if both of these things happen, the consumer market in general will massively improve.
People will continue to buy "smart" cars until both of the following happen: (1) they pull themselves out of purchase apathy and start caring about the quality of their purchases and (2) the information asymmetry favoring automakers is substantially reduced.
Incidentally, if both of these things happen, the consumer market in general will massively improve.
There are things I agree and things I disagree, which leads me to think this is a pretty opinionated topic.
For example with navigation, I thought the phone does it the same but having experienced a Tesla I honestly vastly prefer the Tesla navigation. The bigger screen makes it much easier to glance where on the map I am. You can mount a phone anywhere and it won't be nearly as easily visible. (The GPS screens on my older cars are definitely worse than the phone though)
For climate control I agree fully that the older dials and buttons work better. The problem with temperature control is your body is human and you don't always want a constant temperature. I remember in my very old cars from the 90s and early 00s there's way less I have to adjust for temperature. There's a position on the dial that is pretty much always right to use for the entire season. Nowadays if I set it at 68 it's too cold on some days and too hot on some days, depending on what I'm wearing, how I'm feeling that day, etc. I have to adjust it up or down, and then next time I drive I have to adjust it again.
For example with navigation, I thought the phone does it the same but having experienced a Tesla I honestly vastly prefer the Tesla navigation. The bigger screen makes it much easier to glance where on the map I am. You can mount a phone anywhere and it won't be nearly as easily visible. (The GPS screens on my older cars are definitely worse than the phone though)
For climate control I agree fully that the older dials and buttons work better. The problem with temperature control is your body is human and you don't always want a constant temperature. I remember in my very old cars from the 90s and early 00s there's way less I have to adjust for temperature. There's a position on the dial that is pretty much always right to use for the entire season. Nowadays if I set it at 68 it's too cold on some days and too hot on some days, depending on what I'm wearing, how I'm feeling that day, etc. I have to adjust it up or down, and then next time I drive I have to adjust it again.
> Power seat adjustment, though, that’s a luxury even today. Use the lever.
Probably the one thing I disagree with the article on. Power seat adjustment is a heck of a lot safer in the driver seat than manual levers, and it's not even close.
If a passenger accidentally adjusts the seat too far forward or too far back while the car is in motion, fine, it's an inconvenience. If the driver does this, they become a road hazard.
Probably the one thing I disagree with the article on. Power seat adjustment is a heck of a lot safer in the driver seat than manual levers, and it's not even close.
If a passenger accidentally adjusts the seat too far forward or too far back while the car is in motion, fine, it's an inconvenience. If the driver does this, they become a road hazard.
It's not even a safety thing. Power seats with memory functionality are a must-have for anyone that shares their car with someone else. It's so much less annoying to press one button and have the car revert to your preferred seating position with side mirrors angle perfectly vs doing it manually every time.
Same could be said for adjusting wheel height. Don't do it while driving, problem solved.
What on earth is the driver doing adjusting their seat fore and aft whilst driving?
My 2008 Prius doesn't have Bluetooth and I have to use a dongle. Its one of the biggest issues I have with the car. The dongle needs power, which is fine - I've got it plugged into a USB socket but everytime I start up the car I have to switch it on; otherwise I've got no audio. When I stop the car, the dongle has a small battery so my podcast continues playing if I don't pause it - I then miss part of it.
I rented a car a few years ago that had Bluetooth for the audio and it was wonderful. Stop the car and my music paused, start it and it got going again.
I test drove a few new cars recently and of course they all had Bluetooth, but the Dacia Sandero Stepway had wireless Android Auto. You set it up over Bluetooth but after that you no longer needed to plug the wire in to have Android Auto on the screen. Really impressed me, and being a Dacia was the cheapest car I looked at. The Toyota dealership claimed it didn't exist when I asked about getting that on the Yaris.
I rented a car a few years ago that had Bluetooth for the audio and it was wonderful. Stop the car and my music paused, start it and it got going again.
I test drove a few new cars recently and of course they all had Bluetooth, but the Dacia Sandero Stepway had wireless Android Auto. You set it up over Bluetooth but after that you no longer needed to plug the wire in to have Android Auto on the screen. Really impressed me, and being a Dacia was the cheapest car I looked at. The Toyota dealership claimed it didn't exist when I asked about getting that on the Yaris.
My 2014 Xterra has Bluetooth, but it's an old Bluetooth that works for calls and not music. I also had to get a dongle, since my phone lacks a headphone jack (another spectacular engineering decision).
You should get a better BT dongle though. Mine switches on when the power turns on.
You should get a better BT dongle though. Mine switches on when the power turns on.
If you can, I strongly recommend spending $300-500 on a receiver with CarPlay/Android Auto support. The install kits are so good they often look like they're stock installations. I even was able to replace my cigarette lighter with a USB port, so there are no unsightly cables sticking out of my dash or anything.
I had a frank conversation with an SSE in infotainment about all this not so long ago; he generally agreed with this drift , but when I asked why? Said that what the customers(focus groups) want =\
I wonder how they assemble those groups. I'm guessing there is some significant selection bias in the process.
My Renault EV, while excellent in many respects, does suffer from Smart Car Syndrome (or is it Dumb Designer Syndrome?)
The "please make sure you observe local road laws!" popup obscures the whole touchscreen for over a minute when you start off. It's been showing me this each time I've driven off for three years. I've got the message.
The intermittent windscreen wipers are supposed to respond to the rain on the screen, but vary in their response from nothing to double speed, uncorrelated to the actual weather. Can I just have an adjustable "once every few seconds" control?
And the best one - timed charging doesn't work over Saturday night/Sunday morning. Every other night, fine, but not then. Completely reproducible. I suspect some sort of date roll-over bug, but Renault have given up trying to find a problem.
The "please make sure you observe local road laws!" popup obscures the whole touchscreen for over a minute when you start off. It's been showing me this each time I've driven off for three years. I've got the message.
The intermittent windscreen wipers are supposed to respond to the rain on the screen, but vary in their response from nothing to double speed, uncorrelated to the actual weather. Can I just have an adjustable "once every few seconds" control?
And the best one - timed charging doesn't work over Saturday night/Sunday morning. Every other night, fine, but not then. Completely reproducible. I suspect some sort of date roll-over bug, but Renault have given up trying to find a problem.
You can get some pretty nice non-smart cars and they will put a massive grin on your face!
Proper old school stuff. 9ff https://youtu.be/P-BTTquGvAw?t=628
Von Schmidt Resto-Mod built to your spec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzVr4cpNC58
Ruf CTR https://youtu.be/ZJwF1BX5uQc?t=1147
Personally though, I'd like to see the knobs for the essentials like fan speed and temperature as these get changed all the time, radio channels, mp3/disc selection, and then the less likely things to be fiddled with can go on screen and activated with maybe a few buttons.
For example, the roads in the UK are full of potholes, the state use this to keep the speed down on the road, but when driving in Germany on the autobahns (or the continent in general), the roads are better made so being able to setup on the touch screen different car setups which control suspension, ride height, steering input, engine tuning which can then be activated by pushing a button to cycle through comfort mode and sports, would seem to be a better bet, a more efficient way of setting up a car.
I hope the car companies log all the buttons pushed and touchscreen settings so that they can optimise their "UX" within the cars better because what I hate about the touchscreen is even on dark mode, at night it still interferes with your night vision a bit, and I'd like to turn it off like I think Saab used to do with their console display at night.
Bluetooth, GPS sat nav and all that sort of stuff, its handy in my opinion, but I'm also aware of how you can hack satnav to make a target take routes the satnav wouldnt normally select. The way to do that is to make your targets satnav think there are massive delays on the road, and then it reroutes. I havent heard of anyone who has reported this in the media, but its a doable form of hacking.
For the speed freaks, if you havent seen a car doing 259mph (417kph) on the unrestricted German autobahn, this is the link. https://youtu.be/7pg1hhW5qhM?t=153
The Countach that killed the Cannonball, but it shows you need technology if you want to drive fast. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b7erU_DOfE
Proper old school stuff. 9ff https://youtu.be/P-BTTquGvAw?t=628
Von Schmidt Resto-Mod built to your spec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzVr4cpNC58
Ruf CTR https://youtu.be/ZJwF1BX5uQc?t=1147
Personally though, I'd like to see the knobs for the essentials like fan speed and temperature as these get changed all the time, radio channels, mp3/disc selection, and then the less likely things to be fiddled with can go on screen and activated with maybe a few buttons.
For example, the roads in the UK are full of potholes, the state use this to keep the speed down on the road, but when driving in Germany on the autobahns (or the continent in general), the roads are better made so being able to setup on the touch screen different car setups which control suspension, ride height, steering input, engine tuning which can then be activated by pushing a button to cycle through comfort mode and sports, would seem to be a better bet, a more efficient way of setting up a car.
I hope the car companies log all the buttons pushed and touchscreen settings so that they can optimise their "UX" within the cars better because what I hate about the touchscreen is even on dark mode, at night it still interferes with your night vision a bit, and I'd like to turn it off like I think Saab used to do with their console display at night.
Bluetooth, GPS sat nav and all that sort of stuff, its handy in my opinion, but I'm also aware of how you can hack satnav to make a target take routes the satnav wouldnt normally select. The way to do that is to make your targets satnav think there are massive delays on the road, and then it reroutes. I havent heard of anyone who has reported this in the media, but its a doable form of hacking.
For the speed freaks, if you havent seen a car doing 259mph (417kph) on the unrestricted German autobahn, this is the link. https://youtu.be/7pg1hhW5qhM?t=153
The Countach that killed the Cannonball, but it shows you need technology if you want to drive fast. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b7erU_DOfE
After years of driving a several Mercedes E-Class cars, I now drive a 2004 Jeep Cherokee (not the 'Grand Cherokee'... In the US my Jeep is called the Liberty).
It's very basic compared to my Mercs, but oddly I enjoy driving it more - and I'm not one of those 'love cars, love to drive' people.
I relate to the point in the article about fancy screens; In my Jeep I fitted a very cheap (£30) Chinese radio head unit. It has almost no display, or useful functions, but it does have Bluetooth, so my phone does all the heavy lifting - internet radio, music, GPS etc. I can upgrade my phone at any point, and my jeeps infotainment system gets a bump-up at the same time.
It's very basic compared to my Mercs, but oddly I enjoy driving it more - and I'm not one of those 'love cars, love to drive' people.
I relate to the point in the article about fancy screens; In my Jeep I fitted a very cheap (£30) Chinese radio head unit. It has almost no display, or useful functions, but it does have Bluetooth, so my phone does all the heavy lifting - internet radio, music, GPS etc. I can upgrade my phone at any point, and my jeeps infotainment system gets a bump-up at the same time.
I once bought such a Bluetooth radio.
It cost me over 300€ (new starter, new battery) to finally figure out myself that the cheap Chinese radio was draining my battery and preventing my car to start. Sometimes I had to turn the key 30 times (with a full battery) to start the car.
It cost me over 300€ (new starter, new battery) to finally figure out myself that the cheap Chinese radio was draining my battery and preventing my car to start. Sometimes I had to turn the key 30 times (with a full battery) to start the car.
It's usually pretty easy to wire it up so that it shuts off with the car. A fuse tap can piggyback off of an existing ignition-switched fuse.
Haha, the 'smart' cat is well and truly out of the bag now, and the sad thing is we kind of did it to ourselves by demanding, or at least, buying, these features.
'Smart' means manufacturers can put ads on everything, sell your usage data, and of course all the smarts become obsolete or break easily after just a couple of years, often turning otherwise perfectly good hardware into a doorstop.
As part of 'right to repair' we should also demand 'right to own UI'; appliances have some standard (electronic/data) interfaces, and you can add off-the-shelf, or even custom UI of your choice.
'Smart' means manufacturers can put ads on everything, sell your usage data, and of course all the smarts become obsolete or break easily after just a couple of years, often turning otherwise perfectly good hardware into a doorstop.
As part of 'right to repair' we should also demand 'right to own UI'; appliances have some standard (electronic/data) interfaces, and you can add off-the-shelf, or even custom UI of your choice.
> the sad thing is we kind of did it to ourselves by demanding, or at least, buying, these features.
Even more sad is it’s not like people looking for a new car have much of a choice.
Even more sad is it’s not like people looking for a new car have much of a choice.
That's exactly why I love my ten year old BMW 1 series as someone who works with computers all day. It's not that old that it's terribly unreliable, ugly and drives bad. It's just a modern car with no extras and awesome driving performance. No screens besides two, small, orange LCDs, analogue gauges, a stick shift, a big not too powerful engine for such a small car and the best steering I ever experienced.
My mountain bike is even better. Nothing electronic at all and only mechanical things I can fix myself. I love working on it more than on code sometimes.
My mountain bike is even better. Nothing electronic at all and only mechanical things I can fix myself. I love working on it more than on code sometimes.
My 2012 Volkswagen is getting up in years, but I love it. Manual transmission, no screens, everything is easily adjusted by the driver via tactile controls. I'm loathe to get a new car because it's nearly impossible to find a recent model car without large screens.
As for electric cars forget about it. I would love a "dumb" electric car. No screens, no driver assist, no GPS navigation; just a simple vehicle with an electric drive train. But short of doing an electric conversion on an old car I'm probably out of luck.
Those were excellent Vws, I worked at a VW dealership around that time and loved driving them. Personally my 2000 Jetta is still going strong, if you're able to afford the maintenance I'm pretty sure you could get many more years out of it (at least until the rings wear out).
I'm in the same boat, I've got lovely heated leather seats, nice strong engine, good handling, and a traction control that doesn't piss me off in winter. That's all I need and as "cool" as Tesla's are, I don't expect it'll be nearly as usable after 22 years as my Jetta is. Even VW has now gone down the dark side of EVs, when all I want is an electric 2000 Jetta. It's sad how wasteful these new EVs are.
I'm in the same boat, I've got lovely heated leather seats, nice strong engine, good handling, and a traction control that doesn't piss me off in winter. That's all I need and as "cool" as Tesla's are, I don't expect it'll be nearly as usable after 22 years as my Jetta is. Even VW has now gone down the dark side of EVs, when all I want is an electric 2000 Jetta. It's sad how wasteful these new EVs are.
If you're in Europe, check out the VW e-UP. It's about as basic as an electric car can get these days.
techcrunch leading me through 'https://guce.advertising.com' when i open links or their site directly... weird
It's been like that for years if you haven't set the cookies.
The article describes my own vision 100%. To me, a car is a vehicle, i.e., it needs to transport me from point A to point B most safely and reliably. I don't listen to music when I drive, I don't text or make calls - I enjoy driving, and I focus 100% on this and, thank God, I've never been in an accident, not even a fender bender, and I have over half a million miles behind the wheel. When I'm in Bulgaria, I drive a 2003 Audi A4 1.9 TDI with a stick shift, and I enjoy it much more than my US AT car.
I'd have a very hard time not playing some music if I were driving an A4 through Bulgaria. But the laser focus between you and the road is the most important thing.
Why would I want to play music? I enjoy driving more than listening to music. I don't get bored even when I'm driving thru heavy traffic on I-5 or I-405, so, why would I need music not being in a traffic jam and having beautiful scenery?!
I grew up next to the 405, and I don't think I'd ever call the view from it beautiful!
But as far as music. Yes I just want to listen to my motor sometimes. But... I probably shouldn't admit this, but the reason I love driving to loud music is that I drive to the music. I prepare different MP3 mixes for my cars. The Datsun mixes are only music from 1970 to 1983, but I rotate the bands and songs before any long drive. When certain songs really take off I shift in time - I play the car like a guitar, and inevitably I want certain songs to come on when I know I'll be on an empty stretch of road with no cops and I can drive way too fast and shoot the curves. Blasting Kansas in an 80 Datsun at twice the speed limit is probably the closest I've ever gotten to pure joy.
But as far as music. Yes I just want to listen to my motor sometimes. But... I probably shouldn't admit this, but the reason I love driving to loud music is that I drive to the music. I prepare different MP3 mixes for my cars. The Datsun mixes are only music from 1970 to 1983, but I rotate the bands and songs before any long drive. When certain songs really take off I shift in time - I play the car like a guitar, and inevitably I want certain songs to come on when I know I'll be on an empty stretch of road with no cops and I can drive way too fast and shoot the curves. Blasting Kansas in an 80 Datsun at twice the speed limit is probably the closest I've ever gotten to pure joy.
Music while driving seems to be one those divisive subjects. Some people basically need music while driving and some people find it pointless or annoying.
Yeah, some need country music, others - techno. I personally like to be able to hear the engine. I then wonder why race drivers don't listen to music if it has benefits to some people.
4 years ago I bought Dacia Duster - it is a Renault-made car on the chassis of Nissan Quashqai.
It costs $10k new, straight from the dealer. Mine costed 13k because I added powered mirrors, electric windows, A/C, and aluminum rims.
When I travelled to Mexico, I've seen it very popular there under Renault brand.
The car feels cheap, cramped, and has no discernible acceleration :D. It also gets the job done, is dirt cheap to repair, and has so much clearance you can build a whole lean startup under the floor.
When I travelled to Mexico, I've seen it very popular there under Renault brand.
The car feels cheap, cramped, and has no discernible acceleration :D. It also gets the job done, is dirt cheap to repair, and has so much clearance you can build a whole lean startup under the floor.
Interesting to see a few posts on HN recently advocating for 'dumb' and 'boring' tech. I'd actually been working on an article on 'dumb technology' along the same lines. Comments welcome. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/358248465_Dumb_Tech...
I have an old Renault Kangoo. It's a box on wheels. Big enough to fit a bicycle or a bed, small enough to drive like a car. I'm going on a road trip today.
This car is a breeze to work on. It's a bog standard car. If something breaks, it can be fixed. The only things that can break are the things that make the car run. You don't need a specially trained technician. You don't need to remove a layer of plastic to get to the engine. There is no touch screen.
This car is a breeze to work on. It's a bog standard car. If something breaks, it can be fixed. The only things that can break are the things that make the car run. You don't need a specially trained technician. You don't need to remove a layer of plastic to get to the engine. There is no touch screen.
The author's list of demands describe my 2011 Renault Kangoo II, a model they only stopped producing in 2021, very well. Knobs, analog gauges, but also a factory-installed reverse parking sensor. It's down-market and inexpensive, It's a very simple car, and also very simple to work on, as a consequence. 15000-page service manual, as well. Utilitarian (ex-)fleet vehicles (mine was a Swiss Post delivery van) might still check these boxes for folks.
I have 2018 Chevy, and it's sufficiently dumb :)
I have physical controls for climate, and even a dedicated defroster button. The car supports Android Auto / CarPlay, so I don't have to interact with its horrendous navigation (my favorite part is that it announces route changes in backwards manner, e.g. "Turn left ... in half a mile").
The card was cheap, and has been running without issues. It's not a luxury car for sure, but it does its job.
I have physical controls for climate, and even a dedicated defroster button. The car supports Android Auto / CarPlay, so I don't have to interact with its horrendous navigation (my favorite part is that it announces route changes in backwards manner, e.g. "Turn left ... in half a mile").
The card was cheap, and has been running without issues. It's not a luxury car for sure, but it does its job.
Hear hear. And stop messing with the steering wheel. I don't want 17 trillion buttons on a steering wheel. The "safe" area seems to be getting smaller and smaller.
As for worst car UI experience ever, it has to be the Seat I'm driving. It has a large touch screen. So you decide you're going to touch an option and your finger is under way to the surface. During this movement, the UI detects you're going to press something and tries to "help" you by moving some sticky menu out of the way or the opposite: revealing some hover menu. So now the thing you were planning to touch has moved during the 0.5s travel.
The car is also in constant paranoia mode it seems. I'm parking forwards at about 1mph, slowly approaching the end of the lot, a boundary of shrubs. The car apparently thinks I'm close to dying. Everything is flashing and buzzing.
It also has a helpful planning system. I'm in the middle of a huge traffic jam and then it tells me "busy traffic ahead".
It has a navigation system where you can pick from 3 routes: fastest, easiest and some mysterious in-between option. Yet all routes lead to the exact same navigation instructions, it feels like somebody just made up the 10 minute "difference" in the UI.
When driving this car, I sometimes have this feeling that the makers are laughing at me as I drive it, to see how much you can mess with somebody before they understand they're the subject of a joke.
But this is no joke. I'm really quite sure that crappy car UI leads to injury and death. A car is not a Battlefield game that needs 2 years of bugfixing before it's usable.
As for worst car UI experience ever, it has to be the Seat I'm driving. It has a large touch screen. So you decide you're going to touch an option and your finger is under way to the surface. During this movement, the UI detects you're going to press something and tries to "help" you by moving some sticky menu out of the way or the opposite: revealing some hover menu. So now the thing you were planning to touch has moved during the 0.5s travel.
The car is also in constant paranoia mode it seems. I'm parking forwards at about 1mph, slowly approaching the end of the lot, a boundary of shrubs. The car apparently thinks I'm close to dying. Everything is flashing and buzzing.
It also has a helpful planning system. I'm in the middle of a huge traffic jam and then it tells me "busy traffic ahead".
It has a navigation system where you can pick from 3 routes: fastest, easiest and some mysterious in-between option. Yet all routes lead to the exact same navigation instructions, it feels like somebody just made up the 10 minute "difference" in the UI.
When driving this car, I sometimes have this feeling that the makers are laughing at me as I drive it, to see how much you can mess with somebody before they understand they're the subject of a joke.
But this is no joke. I'm really quite sure that crappy car UI leads to injury and death. A car is not a Battlefield game that needs 2 years of bugfixing before it's usable.
https://vanderhallusa.com
Here you go. I see this companies cars driving around sometimes.
Here you go. I see this companies cars driving around sometimes.
Thanks! I wonder how I haven't heard of this before.
Edit: Just saw that the Brawley is off-road only. It doesn't meet DOT standards. That would probably explain why I haven't heard of it.
Edit: Just saw that the Brawley is off-road only. It doesn't meet DOT standards. That would probably explain why I haven't heard of it.
The company makes a few other cars, most of them extremely quirky with only a windshield to protect you from the elements. But depending on the climate you live in, they do indeed make some street legal "dumb cars"
I was very happy until I saw that they're not street-legal.
I've fixed the link, the one car I had linked previously was a new offering of theirs that was only for off road use.
Aren't dumb cars going to completely go away once the transition from ICE to EV is finished? I could see them being like antiques or something, but they wouldn't really be economically viable to produce anymore. And of course, the fact that dumb cars would be more expensive to produce is just a side effect of digital being cheaper than analogue after a certain about of development.
Dumb cars aren't more expensive to produce. And EVs don't have to be "tech". It's just that is what people want.
> Dumb cars aren't more expensive to produce.
Increasingly they are. Analog connections and dials, for example, are already more expensive than digital ones. It is like...if you wanted to buy a car without power steering you really couldn't.
I guess if you want a golf cart you can buy a dumb EV. I don't know how that translates into a real car, however.
Increasingly they are. Analog connections and dials, for example, are already more expensive than digital ones. It is like...if you wanted to buy a car without power steering you really couldn't.
I guess if you want a golf cart you can buy a dumb EV. I don't know how that translates into a real car, however.
Maybe, but that will take many decades
I guess in some countries and states? Many countries have deadlines of 2025 (Norway), 2030 (Netherlands), 2035, or 2040 [1], I don't think the hold outs will be able to keep up with ICE production and infrastructure for long after the richer states and countries transition.
And once the writing is seen on the wall, no one will want to be the last person to buy an ICE. Things will change pretty rapidly.
[1] https://electrek.co/2021/11/10/countries-automakers-agree-go...
And once the writing is seen on the wall, no one will want to be the last person to buy an ICE. Things will change pretty rapidly.
[1] https://electrek.co/2021/11/10/countries-automakers-agree-go...
Unfortunately the government is imminently planning on requiring "smart" features like a law enforcement lowjack for "hot cars"[0] and a remote "kill switch" [1]. Granted, I'd be more than okay building a ranch vehicle or purchasing an old car and deleting these features as willful non-compliance.
[0] https://hothardware.com/news/bidens-infrastructure-bill-mand...
(hot hardware is an oddly good source of electrical engineering news too!)
[1] https://miami.cbslocal.com/2021/12/29/new-federal-regulation....
[0] https://hothardware.com/news/bidens-infrastructure-bill-mand...
(hot hardware is an oddly good source of electrical engineering news too!)
[1] https://miami.cbslocal.com/2021/12/29/new-federal-regulation....
See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29427068 for a discussion about that, from the top comment:
> This is a terrible description of what the law actually does. Let's shine some light on the FUD. The law, H.R. 3684 (as enrolled), defines an "advanced drunk and impaired driving prevention technology" as a system which can do /one/ of the following: 1. "passively monitor the performance of a driver... to accurately identify whether that driver may be impaired... and prevent or limit [car] operation if an impairment is detected."
2. "passively and accurately" detect whether someone's BAC exceeds the Federal limit, and prevent or limit car operation if it's detected.
3. Both.
This will apply only after the DOT finalizes a rule describing what all those things actually mean in terms of manufacture. The law requires that the Secretary publish this rule within the next three years, unless they think it can't be done, in which case they can push it out another three years. That rule must give car manufactures at least another two years to implement the requirement. It also gives the DOT an out to say that it can't be done, in which case in 2031, they need to write a report to Congress to say why it can't be done.
In software terms, this is a user story that was just submitted for development. It's Congress asking the executive branch to do some work, but not actually forcing them to do so.
(But in the far-right wing press, "request to explore tech that keeps drunk people from driving" becomes "bill will mandate kill switch!" because of the click bait sound of it)
> This is a terrible description of what the law actually does. Let's shine some light on the FUD. The law, H.R. 3684 (as enrolled), defines an "advanced drunk and impaired driving prevention technology" as a system which can do /one/ of the following: 1. "passively monitor the performance of a driver... to accurately identify whether that driver may be impaired... and prevent or limit [car] operation if an impairment is detected."
2. "passively and accurately" detect whether someone's BAC exceeds the Federal limit, and prevent or limit car operation if it's detected.
3. Both.
This will apply only after the DOT finalizes a rule describing what all those things actually mean in terms of manufacture. The law requires that the Secretary publish this rule within the next three years, unless they think it can't be done, in which case they can push it out another three years. That rule must give car manufactures at least another two years to implement the requirement. It also gives the DOT an out to say that it can't be done, in which case in 2031, they need to write a report to Congress to say why it can't be done.
In software terms, this is a user story that was just submitted for development. It's Congress asking the executive branch to do some work, but not actually forcing them to do so.
(But in the far-right wing press, "request to explore tech that keeps drunk people from driving" becomes "bill will mandate kill switch!" because of the click bait sound of it)
We have a 2008 Lexus, with the standard big screen on the dash; its UI is objectively terrible - it is like the thing has gone through zero user testing on any of its functions. The sat nav interface is probably the worst - we usually spend 5 mins out of sheer bloody-mindedness trying to program a destination in before giving up and plugging in a smartphone instead.
> Not to mention the privacy and security concerns.
Heh. That ship has sailed.
Wait until electronic license plates using eInk roll out and update automatically. First they'll just change if you haven't paid your registration, then later if your insurance lapses, or maybe it'll light up with yellow LEDs when there's a kidnapping. It'll be integrated into Fast Pass toll-payment systems, why not? And over the next decade, as the taxes from gasoline disappear, the plates will have integrated travel tracking so you automatically pay $0.02 per mile road usage taxes. It'll be the most fair way to pay for the roads.
Yep, this is all coming. First, they'll be add-on plates, but then they'll be integrated into all new cars. Personal transportation is going to look completely different by the end of the century, anyways. Worrying about the number of knobs on your dashboard is like worrying about the color of your horse's blinders or whether your cart's wheels were made out of oak or cedar.
Heh. That ship has sailed.
Wait until electronic license plates using eInk roll out and update automatically. First they'll just change if you haven't paid your registration, then later if your insurance lapses, or maybe it'll light up with yellow LEDs when there's a kidnapping. It'll be integrated into Fast Pass toll-payment systems, why not? And over the next decade, as the taxes from gasoline disappear, the plates will have integrated travel tracking so you automatically pay $0.02 per mile road usage taxes. It'll be the most fair way to pay for the roads.
Yep, this is all coming. First, they'll be add-on plates, but then they'll be integrated into all new cars. Personal transportation is going to look completely different by the end of the century, anyways. Worrying about the number of knobs on your dashboard is like worrying about the color of your horse's blinders or whether your cart's wheels were made out of oak or cedar.
So basically all things we think is shit on the internet will be on the road :(
There is something we could have on cars since at least a decade or more and that I don’t understand we don’t have : HUDs.
I already saw one in a top-end car and it’s absolutely practical. I can’t imagine that it costs anything to embed that in a car (it’s just a monochrome, really bright LED screen) so I assume manufacturers just want to keep them as high prices options.
I already saw one in a top-end car and it’s absolutely practical. I can’t imagine that it costs anything to embed that in a car (it’s just a monochrome, really bright LED screen) so I assume manufacturers just want to keep them as high prices options.
I am guessing patents are the limiting factor. The holders might not want or be able to license the tech more broadly.
Typical retrograde article with a narrative I wish everything be like in good old days with no connection to reality.
The main message is super pathetic.
It claim simplicity but yet targets ICE car. The amount of parts in ICE vs any complicated EV is at least 3 times less. Sometimes more. So you just shift the complexity of running and driving super complex combustion engine towards your safety and comfort in EV and still car is 3 times simpler.
1. So one of points was no GPS. Who want to rely on your phone to know if you able to make to the charging station? What if you forget your phone and you're in the middle of highway deep in the forest?
2. Music. That's not even fun. Aux oh, yeah, how about ~1 billion people with iphone that doesn't have Aux. What if I want to play my music from my apple watch? And good luck managing several bluetooth devices with no screen. And what if some people doesn't want to rely on their device for such a basic thing as music? Really wiring your car with cords to charge your phone, connect aux, mount the phone is the way to make your car simple???? Are you serious?
3. Manual seat control. It seems like every argument in article is a denial of " i hate opinion and need of other people, I want my particular car". If 2 people or more own the same car, they want to adjust it automatically, including mirrors. I bet most of them will be happy to seat in a car, it read their profile from phone in the pocket, adjust seats temp etc including while driving out from drive way. That's already done in tesla including doors. No clicks at all. Screen is used when you need to change predefine settings. Even that can be altered via voice. Btw using voice is also more safe.
4. Climate control zoning. Same thing. How about people want it blow differently with different temp not for a different average temp in the cabin but for different feeling.
The main message is super pathetic.
It claim simplicity but yet targets ICE car. The amount of parts in ICE vs any complicated EV is at least 3 times less. Sometimes more. So you just shift the complexity of running and driving super complex combustion engine towards your safety and comfort in EV and still car is 3 times simpler.
1. So one of points was no GPS. Who want to rely on your phone to know if you able to make to the charging station? What if you forget your phone and you're in the middle of highway deep in the forest?
2. Music. That's not even fun. Aux oh, yeah, how about ~1 billion people with iphone that doesn't have Aux. What if I want to play my music from my apple watch? And good luck managing several bluetooth devices with no screen. And what if some people doesn't want to rely on their device for such a basic thing as music? Really wiring your car with cords to charge your phone, connect aux, mount the phone is the way to make your car simple???? Are you serious?
3. Manual seat control. It seems like every argument in article is a denial of " i hate opinion and need of other people, I want my particular car". If 2 people or more own the same car, they want to adjust it automatically, including mirrors. I bet most of them will be happy to seat in a car, it read their profile from phone in the pocket, adjust seats temp etc including while driving out from drive way. That's already done in tesla including doors. No clicks at all. Screen is used when you need to change predefine settings. Even that can be altered via voice. Btw using voice is also more safe.
4. Climate control zoning. Same thing. How about people want it blow differently with different temp not for a different average temp in the cabin but for different feeling.
My Jeep Wrangler is the kind of a vehicle you can leave out in the rain without the top, exposed to the elements. Floors have drain plugs, and there's very little electronics where water could intrude. The car stereo is visibly not worth stealing, and if it breaks at most I would take it out to have a new storage cubby.
It's very refreshing to own.
It's very refreshing to own.
I would love one of those but even before the pandemic, clapped out examples from the late 90's with over 100k miles were going for $10-15k++. At least in my area.
I'm like, weren't these things $15k brand new?
I'm like, weren't these things $15k brand new?
Jeeps hold their value crazy well, at least outside of road salt rust prone regions. Even after the engine blows, some enthusiast will still buy the frame and swap in a monster engine.
I paid $15k for an '08 in 2017, and would not sell it below $15k even without the COVID car shortage price bump.
I paid $15k for an '08 in 2017, and would not sell it below $15k even without the COVID car shortage price bump.
The Bluetooth in my 2102 Scion xB's stock calculator-display headunit works great.
I turn on the car, my phone auto-connects, and my last podcast immediately starts playing where it left off. I don't even know how it does that. I receive a phone call, and my music is paused and I can hit the green "pick up phone" button on the headunit, and I'm talking. Call ends, and my music resumes. I can pause the music with the "1" button, skip within a track, skip tracks, even thumbs-up or thumbs-down in music apps, all with a handful of manual buttons on a stock headunit. No "flipping menus", the existing buttons just work.
It's amazing. It just works. All without any god damn embedded mobile operating system or fancy graphics. ... oh, and because this headunit has a CDROM bay, it holds my magnetic phone mount better than any of the stick-on or vent-grippy ones. Thanks, dumb car!
I turn on the car, my phone auto-connects, and my last podcast immediately starts playing where it left off. I don't even know how it does that. I receive a phone call, and my music is paused and I can hit the green "pick up phone" button on the headunit, and I'm talking. Call ends, and my music resumes. I can pause the music with the "1" button, skip within a track, skip tracks, even thumbs-up or thumbs-down in music apps, all with a handful of manual buttons on a stock headunit. No "flipping menus", the existing buttons just work.
It's amazing. It just works. All without any god damn embedded mobile operating system or fancy graphics. ... oh, and because this headunit has a CDROM bay, it holds my magnetic phone mount better than any of the stick-on or vent-grippy ones. Thanks, dumb car!
Low end pickup trucks targeted for commerical use are pretty dumb.
Mine is a 2016 Nissan Frontier and it only has a backup camera (which is honestly needed with a camper top).
It has 1 door-key-hole, no power windows or power locks, and an aftermarket stereo.
As a software engineer, I feel much safer in it than a car with more sophisticated computer controls XD
Mine is a 2016 Nissan Frontier and it only has a backup camera (which is honestly needed with a camper top).
It has 1 door-key-hole, no power windows or power locks, and an aftermarket stereo.
As a software engineer, I feel much safer in it than a car with more sophisticated computer controls XD
"Carmakers have always struggled with user interfaces, but until recently the biggest problem we had was “too many knobs.”"
My 89 Caprice was awesome and didn't even have this problem. You could operate it by feel, even counting the clicks on the radio tuning dial to know how far you were tuning.
My 89 Caprice was awesome and didn't even have this problem. You could operate it by feel, even counting the clicks on the radio tuning dial to know how far you were tuning.
I'm currently driving a Fiant Panda w/ a manual transmission. It has basically no features. Bluetooth, cruise control, and that's about it. I'm loving it. The only thing I wish it had was four wheel drive, and maybe a holder for my cell phone when using Google Maps.
I hate my panda mostly because the built in radio is only displaying directory names for the far majority of my music collection.
I wasn't aware that 16000$ worth of car comes with the music hardware straight out of the 90s
Mine is 4 wheel and came with a mobile holder. So there is that :)
I wasn't aware that 16000$ worth of car comes with the music hardware straight out of the 90s
Mine is 4 wheel and came with a mobile holder. So there is that :)
Cars went to shit when they got ECUs. Idiots defend it and anything like it because "it saves lives" "saves the environment" or whatever, but they don't know anything and haven't looked at the details themselves for even one second. Prime example: Dieselgate, they thought something or someone was being saved, but absolutely nothing was. Even this stupid article says "X & Y saves lives". Fuck off. Actually, this reminds me how a city is just a bunch of roads designed for these trash technology for people who think they are wealthy to make use of, with no provisions for people who want to just walk places (e.g 3 mile long stretches of private property with no way to get through them without risking getting arrested).
I had the same thought recently, as I was considering the purchase of a new car.
Even the 'base models' are loaded with touch-screens, assistive driving and loads of other stuff I don't want.
I understand there are people out there that do want this stuff. I would hazard a guess there are many like me that would opt for another car without this stuff if it were available.
Brand it 'security-hardened' or whatever, I just don't want to be driving around your IT security nightmare. I also don't want you remotely hot-fixing my ride to make up for it.
I think there are people that care about this stuff enough that you could create a brand around the concept of 'just enough tech to make it work'.
Even the 'base models' are loaded with touch-screens, assistive driving and loads of other stuff I don't want.
I understand there are people out there that do want this stuff. I would hazard a guess there are many like me that would opt for another car without this stuff if it were available.
Brand it 'security-hardened' or whatever, I just don't want to be driving around your IT security nightmare. I also don't want you remotely hot-fixing my ride to make up for it.
I think there are people that care about this stuff enough that you could create a brand around the concept of 'just enough tech to make it work'.
> Backup cameras are one thing people may not want to go without (and indeed may be required in some cases) — but you’d be surprised how informative a basic proximity beeper is.
I think that backup cameras are required in US cars post-April-2018 [1]. I think that's how manufacturers justify getting a screen on the dashboard. Every other (bad) decision is just "let's make the software do _this thing_" and the feature creep leads to terrible UI/UX.
[1] https://www.nhtsa.gov/equipment/driver-assistance-technologi...
I think that backup cameras are required in US cars post-April-2018 [1]. I think that's how manufacturers justify getting a screen on the dashboard. Every other (bad) decision is just "let's make the software do _this thing_" and the feature creep leads to terrible UI/UX.
[1] https://www.nhtsa.gov/equipment/driver-assistance-technologi...
I agree with the sentiment, I recently bought a new 2021 prius prime XLE. It has this massive screen in the center dash that everything is on, and i bought it because it was supposed to support android auto. Turns out the lower end (and by lower end i mean the exact same car/engine/body but with a smaller screen and physical controls) was the one that support android auto! i love the car for the most part, but the screen is a huge miss. GPS system on it requires a perfect address and is so slow, its a Japanese car yet the software cant display Japanese on it via song titles. its really a death by 1000 cuts kind of issue.
I'd be generally fine with "smart" cars, provided they can be kept disconnected 24/7, that is, no phoning home to report where I am going or at what speed, and no ads. Otherwise, then thanks but no thanks.
I think Mazda fills this space perfectly. I recently purchased a CX-5, and I am incredibly happy with the balance of smart and non smart features. Everything else felt smart to the point of taking control away from me.
The culmination of luxury, reliability, and beautiful stupidity:
The 1991 Chevrolet Suburban with a 5.7L engine and the 700r4 automatic trans. Comfortable, analogue, and great looking. Easily updated with a backup camera, a modern sound system and remote start, etc. Heated seats are possible, as is any luxury you'd want.
Even the engine could be updated to an OBDII compliant LS, and the drivetrain is already as stout as can be. With more modern spring technology, even leaf springs can be made to ride nicely.
There are already companies doing restomods like these and selling them, and I doubt they can keep them in stock.
The 1991 Chevrolet Suburban with a 5.7L engine and the 700r4 automatic trans. Comfortable, analogue, and great looking. Easily updated with a backup camera, a modern sound system and remote start, etc. Heated seats are possible, as is any luxury you'd want.
Even the engine could be updated to an OBDII compliant LS, and the drivetrain is already as stout as can be. With more modern spring technology, even leaf springs can be made to ride nicely.
There are already companies doing restomods like these and selling them, and I doubt they can keep them in stock.
If you want a dumb car, you should really consider the Nissan Frontier. The truck hasn't changed very much since the mid 2000s. I drove one as a rental for a while and it feels like a blast from the past.
I have my eyes set on the german electric car, Sion. It's the closest match I have found to my Toyota Corolla Verso (2006), which have no smart functions, no displays — just a safe and extremely functional car.
Sion is reasonably priced (sub €30k), seems to have just the right amount of technology, is spacious and has a decent battery pack (~300km range). Production starts next year. Oh, and it has integrated solar panels, which is a nice bonus!
https://sonomotors.com/en/sion/
Sion is reasonably priced (sub €30k), seems to have just the right amount of technology, is spacious and has a decent battery pack (~300km range). Production starts next year. Oh, and it has integrated solar panels, which is a nice bonus!
https://sonomotors.com/en/sion/
In my Mercedes C180, year 2011 the AC zones really work and I have the knobs! With automatic gear (unusual in my country) and turbo, it really feels premium! And I bought it really cheap, as a second owner.
When the latest car we bought came pre-loaded with 2048 on the absurdly large central touchscreen control, but had no physical knobs to control the heater, I resolved to never buy another new vehicle again.
The solution is to just buy old cars.
I drive a 20 year old car. It's perfect. It has a CD player and you can use one of those 12 volt bluetooth / aux bongles if you want more.
Eventually my local area will probably ban them because they're obsessed with health metrics (cars a few years older are now effectively taxed out of existence). Then I'll have to make do with the log burner.
Until one of my neighbours dob me in for that, then I guess I move to the countryside or Eastern Europe or something and leave my house to a VR headset wonk.
I drive a 20 year old car. It's perfect. It has a CD player and you can use one of those 12 volt bluetooth / aux bongles if you want more.
Eventually my local area will probably ban them because they're obsessed with health metrics (cars a few years older are now effectively taxed out of existence). Then I'll have to make do with the log burner.
Until one of my neighbours dob me in for that, then I guess I move to the countryside or Eastern Europe or something and leave my house to a VR headset wonk.
I bought a 2022 Subaru Impreza Sport Hatchback last year in September.
5 Speed Manual Transmission Heated Seats Cruise Control SXM Radio All-wheel drive
No turbo to consume oil, no software to control the car. The Radio has Android Auto, and some software updates available for some nice 'radio features', like showing you the news, weather, sports information, etc. Never used it.
I still own a 1999 Isuzu Rodeo, safety and gas mileage were my reasons for getting the Subaru, as well as my desire to modify the Isuzu.
5 Speed Manual Transmission Heated Seats Cruise Control SXM Radio All-wheel drive
No turbo to consume oil, no software to control the car. The Radio has Android Auto, and some software updates available for some nice 'radio features', like showing you the news, weather, sports information, etc. Never used it.
I still own a 1999 Isuzu Rodeo, safety and gas mileage were my reasons for getting the Subaru, as well as my desire to modify the Isuzu.
The last vehicle I owned about 15 years ago was a late 90's model Rodeo and I absolutely loved it. I hope you take yours out for a spin every now and then!
I love mine, and refused to trade it for the Subie. Unfortunately, the transmission is leaking, and the engine burns oil pretty excessively. Plan is to swap the engine and transmission out of a manual Subaru Outback or Forester and make it a more weekend oriented SUV.
Dumb cars are on the market. You can buy a brand new Dacia with little options. They sell well.
You can also buy a Caterham if you really want something simple and fun to drive (but unsafe).
You can also buy a Caterham if you really want something simple and fun to drive (but unsafe).
>Still, all I want is a car that isn’t as overbearing as all the rest of the devices I already own, sending me notifications, dinging, reporting errors, asking permissions, needing updates — my god!
No dings or errors also means no airbag, no ABS, and no way of knowing if your tire pressure suddenly drops. And good luck if you have any issues whatsoever while on a roadtrip. You did expect all mechanics to give a fair and honest price to get you back on the roadway, right?
No dings or errors also means no airbag, no ABS, and no way of knowing if your tire pressure suddenly drops. And good luck if you have any issues whatsoever while on a roadtrip. You did expect all mechanics to give a fair and honest price to get you back on the roadway, right?
I don't own a car but frequently rent them, and there's always a few wasted minutes orienting to whatever insane quirks that particular automaker crammed into the infotainment, lights, AC, radio, etc. And in these minutes if a valet is not yelling at you to start the car and get out of the parking garage already, you're at least already runnning late from the contemporary rental experience. Car UX has undeniably been getting worse.
Also, consider an e-bike? It's a shame that the US continues to invest in sprawl, roads and parking lots everywhere. Cities could be so much more green and vibrant.
"No screens" is too harsh. My 2012 Civic EX has a colour screen. It supplements the traditional controls in just the right way, for example, with hierarchical menus for things like bluetooth pairing, rarely used configuration items (autolock) and maintenance reminders. It also puts all the visual information - trip computer, radio display and such - in one place. Speedo and tach are still where they belong. Perfect.
Personally I don't buy this argument to the degree the journalist is spinning it. "No screens anywhere!" is an extreme stance. I enjoy how well CarPlay merges my phone with the display screen (and I enjoy easy music control and turn-by-turn for distance trips).
I do overall agree that the controls of modern cars just don't feel 'balanced'. But I don't think an extreme stance like this is going to improve car UX.
I do overall agree that the controls of modern cars just don't feel 'balanced'. But I don't think an extreme stance like this is going to improve car UX.
What's extreme about it? When you're driving a vehicle you need to keep your eyes on the road.
Putting a screen in the vehicle seems like an extreme stance. It's borderline nuts, even — we have massive campaigns trying to get people to stop looking at their phones while driving.
Putting a screen in the vehicle seems like an extreme stance. It's borderline nuts, even — we have massive campaigns trying to get people to stop looking at their phones while driving.
Toyota should introduce the brand new 1999 Corolla.
Right! If this "dumb car" aesthetic is really such a hit, then there are a lot of cars from the 90's that are ready to buy and plenty of shops that are eager to overhaul your old clunker into a hot new legendary UI of a car!
Of course, it isn't a hit. The fact is most people want smart cars.
Of course, it isn't a hit. The fact is most people want smart cars.
I sold my 1973 Chevy pickup to my brother last year and I have missed it every day since. It was as simple as possible to operate, simple to work on, and all the parts were extremely inexpensive because there weren't any computers or silicon or algorithms involved.
I did upgrade the distributor to be an HEI, but that's about as "high-tech" as it needed to be.
I did upgrade the distributor to be an HEI, but that's about as "high-tech" as it needed to be.
In 2017 I bought a new Renault Twingo in the basic version to commute. It was great in an unexpected way: it didn’t distract at all from driving. It had one great simple feature: you could put your smartphone at the place usual GPS screens are mounted. That is it. So you could use a Renault provided App on your phone or use Google Maps. I missed nothing.
I've always taken the stance of cars being nothing more than a product to transport me. I've always found it hard to justify spending $30k more because that one has a nice leather interior, touch screens, and looks prettier. They both do the same job, we'll both arrive at the office at the same time.
A $50 used deck with bluetooth is all the tech I need.
A $50 used deck with bluetooth is all the tech I need.
I can totally relate, but I'm afraid that "smart" cars will push out "dumb" cars in dealerships just like "smart" TVs pushed out "dumb" TVs in big box stores. Why? Because people like feeling they have more for less money.
Wait until you get bombarded with ads in your "smart" car. It's coming, have no doubts.
Wait until you get bombarded with ads in your "smart" car. It's coming, have no doubts.
As a first step I'd like industry to take: please get rid of all the touch screens! Non-tactile elements should never be used in a vehicle!
I propose this for many, many years, since almost got into an accident on a bike while was trying to cancel a call on a touchscreen phone (I knew they were evil right when they appeared).
It wouldn't be that hard to come up with a standard set of controls, buttons, knobs, sliders, that could be used everywhere, but conform to a standard data bus protocol, so that you wouldn't have to have miles of wire in every vehicle.
Such components would allow for the cost savings of control by wire, without the danger of control by screen.
Such components would allow for the cost savings of control by wire, without the danger of control by screen.
There is the Citroën Ami that has already been talked on HN before:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22438418
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24856541
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22438418
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24856541
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> And besides being non-functional, these interfaces are even ugly! The type, the layouts, and animations scream “designed by committee and approved by someone who doesn’t have to use it.”
The main problem is that the car manufacturer has a monopoly on selling you features and updates after you have bought the car.
The main problem is that the car manufacturer has a monopoly on selling you features and updates after you have bought the car.
The things I dislike about my car are all fancy "smart" features. A keyed ignition would have been fine, but they replaced it with a push button. I can stay in my lane just fine, but every time I turn on the car it turns on lane assist and I have to do a button sequence to turn it off.
I see this problem in other things too. I wanted to buy a radio, but the only option I have is an boxed in android phone running apps and a DAB receiver.
I only need two functions, a knob to change channels and one to adjust volume. If I need to play music, some aux input would be nice - that’s it!
I only need two functions, a knob to change channels and one to adjust volume. If I need to play music, some aux input would be nice - that’s it!
There are some very cheap handheld FM radios. What's the problem?
FM has mostly been replaced by DAB where I live. But that is not the point. The point is that the industry is incapable of making a simple and good DAB radio. As the only (afaik) country in the world who have transitioned to DAB, there are little incentive for radio manufacturers to create decent radios.
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Screens are cheaper than physical. They also have less to break(Assuming it's all done correctly).
Why not just get better UI designers instead of perpetuating the idea of using more physical resources than necessary and not getting safety features like backup cameras?
Why not just get better UI designers instead of perpetuating the idea of using more physical resources than necessary and not getting safety features like backup cameras?
I wonder how much weight we could save by leaving out exactly the things the author mentions.
BTW budget cars sold in Europe like certain Dacia models are still pretty basic, yet with efficient and modern (ICE) engines.
I have even head Dacia does not in EVs.
BTW budget cars sold in Europe like certain Dacia models are still pretty basic, yet with efficient and modern (ICE) engines.
I have even head Dacia does not in EVs.
I love my dumb VW Golf MK1. The radio got stolen, so I don't even have that.
How about a GT86? This is about as analog as you can get for a mainstream car.
While I agree with most of this article, I think having one screen for CarPlay is a huge bonus. I replaced the receiver on my old Mazda, and having just that screen for GPS, music, etc. is great.
More than making a dumb car, make the right to repair/replace/upgrade in case the car maker stops supporting the service; otherwise, this calls for planned obsolescence.
If you have never driven an old car (35 years or older) you should try. Especially if you can find one with a carburetor engine and a bit of power. It is gloriously relaxing.
Even Dacia, which was the only one making really dumb cars a few years ago stopped doing the electronic-less cars. It’s a shame.
There apparently isn’t much of a market for dumb cars.
There apparently isn’t much of a market for dumb cars.
I have this car and I love it. It id a small volume production nimble and economical sports car. Everything that can reasonably be manual, is. The Subaru BRZ.
Needed to be said. I will not buy a post-2012 car because of the invasion of nanny features and telemetry. Current rides: 2003 Tacoma truck, 2005 Subaru wagon.
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I just want CarPlay (mostly for maps) and everything else simple manual knobs. The CarPlay screen can double as the backup camera.
I like to know how to repair things that I use. Phone, PC, washing machine... Same is for car.
If we let big tech/companies sorround us by things that we don't know how actually works or how to fix them, then we are screwed and completely dependent on their rules and trends. For example imagine that car will be manufactured without opening windows, like modern trains. Or they have implemented CO2 meters that collect data and limit traveling based on regulations made by gonverments.
If we let big tech/companies sorround us by things that we don't know how actually works or how to fix them, then we are screwed and completely dependent on their rules and trends. For example imagine that car will be manufactured without opening windows, like modern trains. Or they have implemented CO2 meters that collect data and limit traveling based on regulations made by gonverments.
Get a motorcycle and be one with your vehicle!
You also get to become one with the road in case of an accident.
Modern sports bikes are marching towards the same future - self balancing bikes, fancy dashboards, electric bikes with no motor etc.
How can the bike not have a motor? Or like no motor in the engine sense.
Just like electric cars don’t have a motor, another word for motor is transmission in the common parlance.
Electric cars do have motor; "motor" is literally "engine", the thing that converts energy to motion.
If your parlance uses it for the transmission, your parlance is wrong. It is like calling square a circle.
If your parlance uses it for the transmission, your parlance is wrong. It is like calling square a circle.
This is exactly what I did recently. No more "you need to take this to the dealer to fix for thousands with their machine™", and I can replace every single component on the thing my damn self. The less parts, the less that can fail.
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We need a return of dumb. From appliances to code. It’s so strange how this behavior has now become “elitist”.
100% agree, I hate smart cars, touchscreens, beeping all the time for inscrutable reasons and taking over the steering wheel when you cross a line on the highway without using the indicators.
As soon as I can afford it, I'm getting one of these. Electric and no-nonsense:
https://bollingermotors.com
EDIT: Oh no, they are changing directions and will focus on trucks instead!
As soon as I can afford it, I'm getting one of these. Electric and no-nonsense:
https://bollingermotors.com
EDIT: Oh no, they are changing directions and will focus on trucks instead!
I think the author is just becoming old? Like who mounts their phone on the car anymore on a new car?
My 2020 Kona Electric has a pretty intuitive and responsive touchscreen, buttons for climate control, and CarPlay is nice to use? All the smart driving features like emergency braking and lane centering have saved my butt multiple times as well.
My 2020 Kona Electric has a pretty intuitive and responsive touchscreen, buttons for climate control, and CarPlay is nice to use? All the smart driving features like emergency braking and lane centering have saved my butt multiple times as well.
my car from 2010 had a screen that felt really outdated. i removed it and installed a bluetooth system that just has an on/off/volume knob. this feels a lot more modern and has made night driving a lot easier on my eyes.
Knobs for everything I just want power windows and a NO BEEP remote lock/unlock.
I like this, reminds me of how much shitty experience HN has on smart TV's.
the answer is always miata.
How are the latest new ND miatas with regards to this sort of thing, anyway, if you know? The old NB and NA generation miatas (no idea on NC) were just wonderful perfect "dumb cars." Is it still good in the 2022 model year or has it been slightly ruined yet to any degree?
the ND miata is about as close to 'dumb' as you're gonna get these days. aka it's nearly perfect. :D
That's why I love my 2019 Mazda3. Modern enough, but not bloated.
A dumb TV. Please someone make a dumb TV that otherwise is high spec
I am in the group of people who think the more electronics, the better (alone in my family). I do not drive much so if the electronics break then never mind (I did not have this happening for 25 years and I was always looking for the most electronics-packed car).
The situation I have today (in France at least) is that I have cars that are full of electronics but the UI is done by the car manufacturer and is horrible.
My dream is to have a car where I would configure my display. In my case that would be a large speed indicator, the distance I can drive with the current gas I have, and a display where bad things would be displayed, as they come.
What I have is a display full of things I completely do not care about. Temperature of the engine? The engine RPM? I completely do not care about these so I would like to get rid of them.
I think however we are very far from that state of bliss.
The situation I have today (in France at least) is that I have cars that are full of electronics but the UI is done by the car manufacturer and is horrible.
My dream is to have a car where I would configure my display. In my case that would be a large speed indicator, the distance I can drive with the current gas I have, and a display where bad things would be displayed, as they come.
What I have is a display full of things I completely do not care about. Temperature of the engine? The engine RPM? I completely do not care about these so I would like to get rid of them.
I think however we are very far from that state of bliss.
Cars are destroying the planet. Smart, dumb, electric.
So please do not.
So please do not.
Small dumb electric car is all I want, 4x4 preferred.
I have simply gotten. comfortable with older cars.
Basically, he wants my 2008 Hyundai Santa Fe.
While we are at it, please make dumb TVs too.
We need an eco friendly lada and peugeot 404.
Please don't, unless you can replace the dumb driver. Dumb cars usually involved in dumb accidents because dumb driver drives dumb.
Author hasn’t heard about car play?
Fascinating that, in a purportedly capitalistic economy, there is product demand going unserviced.
We argue on good grounds, and the author mentions, that we need standards for safety and reliability, sure.
But at what point do we admit that Regulatory Capture[1] destroys innovation to the benefit of only the major players?
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
We argue on good grounds, and the author mentions, that we need standards for safety and reliability, sure.
But at what point do we admit that Regulatory Capture[1] destroys innovation to the benefit of only the major players?
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
Just buy a smart car that is based from your standards, in that way, you can weigh in its pros and cons yourself.
So basically you want golf mk2
[deleted]
I'm sympathetic to the pleas here. But I'm a luddite. A real luddite, not, as this article is, a simple petty reactionary: the problem is not technology, it's who owns it[1], it's how we are puppet-ed along via technology (Ursala Franklin would call this example of the car a prescriptivist instead of a holistic technology[2]). Technology is good when it empowers folks broadly, when it is soft. But the car systems of today are all prebaked in a hard, demeaning way- unsoft in extreme- and their systems don't entirely align with the people's interest, & even more rarely align with the power-users interest. Ideally, to me, the car has some built-ins but is a tabula rasa, a blank slate: it presents a robust & thorough API for the car systems, including the main interfaces.
Basically I just want a Chrysler with the infamous "Jeep Cherokee" hack[3]. Those cars were a modern miracle of amazingly well designed, consistent API engineering. Users gaining access to those systems, remotely, was shunned as a horrible vile thing, but it was an act of beauty & amazingness, a revelation of wonderfully good engineering. The coverage focused on the malicious acts, & that FUD far out-shined the amazing limitless potential of letting the world try to enrich themselves, make better. Tragic miscarriage against potential: the press murdered any hope of possibility in it's cradle. These cars were/are amazing. QNX OS running DBus protocols to expose all the car's systems: an easy to interface with, exploratory inter-system API for the whole car. We could have built anything here, it feels like. Instead, we damned & cursed the makers for having left some portal open to this computer: we parroted out terror.
I guess my gravy-on-top nee-plus-ultra ask atop having access to a car via DBus- the FreeDesktop standard IPC system- would be for the buttons to be more software defined, independent of their subsystems, which I think still wasn't entirely the case. I'd love to have a phone or console app running which can read from the big giant volume knob, for example, as I adjust some windows or the sunroof or the temperature. Infinite flexibility, please. I've said this before[4].
It's disappeared quickly, but Webinos was a very very interesting decade old attempt to define a user-empowering IoT architecture, & had significant interest from BMW/Land Rover. It's basically bitrotted off the internet, last seen early 2021[5], but was a really interesting user-centric system, where devices were linked not to corporate cloud services but to systems of users choice, exposing their capabilities & offerings generally. We need more holistic potentials in the world. We need to stop consigning away possibility, choosing retro-minimalism because we can't imagine any other possibilities than the vice, than the authoritarian, restrained systems of control most technology imposes upon us. We need personal computing to be possible again, broadly in the world, across devices, we need choice, we need agency, we need to stop being damned by computers & start being served by them: this is only possible if we let the users back in, re-open the frontiers.
In the end, I think the Chromecast model is basically right. The car should have a pre-baked system, but present some HTML capable interfaces, which themselves expose a couple additional above-and-beyond Web IoT apis to adjust windows, sunroofs, hvac. There should be decoupling (which I think Webinos was an early & technically successful contendor for).
[1] https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1478387800542224392
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_Franklin#Holistic_and_p...
[3] https://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-hig...
[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27463898
[5] http://web.archive.org/web/20210115211241/http://webinos.org...
Basically I just want a Chrysler with the infamous "Jeep Cherokee" hack[3]. Those cars were a modern miracle of amazingly well designed, consistent API engineering. Users gaining access to those systems, remotely, was shunned as a horrible vile thing, but it was an act of beauty & amazingness, a revelation of wonderfully good engineering. The coverage focused on the malicious acts, & that FUD far out-shined the amazing limitless potential of letting the world try to enrich themselves, make better. Tragic miscarriage against potential: the press murdered any hope of possibility in it's cradle. These cars were/are amazing. QNX OS running DBus protocols to expose all the car's systems: an easy to interface with, exploratory inter-system API for the whole car. We could have built anything here, it feels like. Instead, we damned & cursed the makers for having left some portal open to this computer: we parroted out terror.
I guess my gravy-on-top nee-plus-ultra ask atop having access to a car via DBus- the FreeDesktop standard IPC system- would be for the buttons to be more software defined, independent of their subsystems, which I think still wasn't entirely the case. I'd love to have a phone or console app running which can read from the big giant volume knob, for example, as I adjust some windows or the sunroof or the temperature. Infinite flexibility, please. I've said this before[4].
It's disappeared quickly, but Webinos was a very very interesting decade old attempt to define a user-empowering IoT architecture, & had significant interest from BMW/Land Rover. It's basically bitrotted off the internet, last seen early 2021[5], but was a really interesting user-centric system, where devices were linked not to corporate cloud services but to systems of users choice, exposing their capabilities & offerings generally. We need more holistic potentials in the world. We need to stop consigning away possibility, choosing retro-minimalism because we can't imagine any other possibilities than the vice, than the authoritarian, restrained systems of control most technology imposes upon us. We need personal computing to be possible again, broadly in the world, across devices, we need choice, we need agency, we need to stop being damned by computers & start being served by them: this is only possible if we let the users back in, re-open the frontiers.
In the end, I think the Chromecast model is basically right. The car should have a pre-baked system, but present some HTML capable interfaces, which themselves expose a couple additional above-and-beyond Web IoT apis to adjust windows, sunroofs, hvac. There should be decoupling (which I think Webinos was an early & technically successful contendor for).
[1] https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1478387800542224392
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_Franklin#Holistic_and_p...
[3] https://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-hig...
[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27463898
[5] http://web.archive.org/web/20210115211241/http://webinos.org...
I'm with you except for one thing.
No web connectivity. Either you're plugged in through CAN, or F-OFF. There is no logical reason for an internet exposed portal to physical car systems. Period.
No web connectivity. Either you're plugged in through CAN, or F-OFF. There is no logical reason for an internet exposed portal to physical car systems. Period.
Dacia
couldn't agree more
The Volvo UI pops up an almost full-display warning when it can't connect to the phone over bluetooth on startup. This UI takes priority over the rear camera. So I guess it's better to hit Timmy and his puppy when I'm backing out, so long as I know my phone's not connected!
The Volvo's headlights have "smart" auto-adjustments. That means I can't leave the high beams on, or force it to stay on low beams. It will decide for me! I think maybe I can disable this... somehow.
So smart.