New cars make me want to Saab (2020)(theoutline.com)
theoutline.com
New cars make me want to Saab (2020)
https://theoutline.com/post/8743/cars-are-ugly-now-i-miss-saab
329 comments
The problem is that most cars have lost their distinct personality due to brands consolidating into large conglomerates, and subsequently developing platforms to reduce costs.
I love old brands with models that stood out, and it's a shame that originality in engineering has been mostly replaced by assembling components together plus some minor aesthetic tweaks. I guess the situation is fairly similar to programming, where SICP has been replaced by gluing libraries together in Python. Perhaps it's a sign of maturity, but I miss some stuff from the past.
I love old brands with models that stood out, and it's a shame that originality in engineering has been mostly replaced by assembling components together plus some minor aesthetic tweaks. I guess the situation is fairly similar to programming, where SICP has been replaced by gluing libraries together in Python. Perhaps it's a sign of maturity, but I miss some stuff from the past.
It’s sad. Every new car today looks like the same identical “bar of soap with wheels.” They are differentiated visually by small things like grille shape and lighting clusters. Everyone blames it on fuel economy and safety features but I think that simply no manufacturer is willing to be daring anymore, and they have trained their customers to like boring design. Even colors: you rarely see anything but white, black, gray, red, and blue.
Maybe it's a good thing - cars used less for social signaling and more for getting from A to B.
Brands of cars are still very obvious with badging and model names. They could be identical vehicles but people will still use the more expensive version to signal.
Audi, Porsche and Mercedes would like to have a word with you :)
Every now and then companies come with different designs than a bar of soap. But it is getting rarer.
However, if you think that Tesla is the future, you are right. For me, to spot the differences between Tesla model i need a meter.
Yeah, like the Porsche "surprised whale" Cayenne, or those Mercedes two-seaters that look like they are made from two different cars...neither of which can have looked very good to begin with.
Leaving aside whether it is good or not, I think this is the future.
When automated driving takes over, few will want to own a car. Most will rent from various fleets so they can watch a movie, play with their phone/partner/etc while they get from A to B. As usual, there will be good things about it and bad things.
When automated driving takes over, few will want to own a car. Most will rent from various fleets so they can watch a movie, play with their phone/partner/etc while they get from A to B. As usual, there will be good things about it and bad things.
And when you say "red" it's more like a merlot, a dialed-back red. "Blue" is almost black. But you forgot metallic beige, magnetic taupe, candy artichoke green....
Probably the most drastic counter-example would be the Aptera Vehicle (yes, that's the actual name). Assuming the production models release on time (late 2022 into 2023), it'll be the most distinctive-looking car on the road.
> Everyone blames it on fuel economy and safety features but I think that simply no manufacturer is willing to be daring anymore, and they have trained their customers to like boring design.
So many incredibly iconic and beautiful cars would be flat out illegal to sell today (in the EU at least). I'm not dismissing the lack of innovation (and more accurately risk aversion) as a factor. Regulation does drive a chunk of it though.
So many incredibly iconic and beautiful cars would be flat out illegal to sell today (in the EU at least). I'm not dismissing the lack of innovation (and more accurately risk aversion) as a factor. Regulation does drive a chunk of it though.
> Every new car today looks like the same
> Everyone blames it on fuel economy
If you're as obsessed with efficiency as Aptera, you end up with something very different and daring.
> Everyone blames it on fuel economy
If you're as obsessed with efficiency as Aptera, you end up with something very different and daring.
How about the cutting edge of Serbo-Croatian technology?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1LxlZ8pTRg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1LxlZ8pTRg
> due to brands consolidating into large conglomerates
Worse, it's more like cowardly "risk aversion". Stay in the lines, don't take design chances. What color? Something conservative, maybe desaturated, maybe metallic....
Worse, it's more like cowardly "risk aversion". Stay in the lines, don't take design chances. What color? Something conservative, maybe desaturated, maybe metallic....
Which is perfect for low visibility. I almost hit a conservative desaturated metallic car once when it was overcast, I was quite tired and the other driver did not turn on their headlights. If I like one thing about newer vehicles it's LED daylight running lights and automatic headlights that turn on in low light.
> it is by many considered to be "great design" (an Alfa Giulietta QV).
Is it? Lol, they're about the only new cars selling for under MSRP around here these days.
I was drooling over a beautiful white 1967 Duetto spider the other day though. What a pretty old thing that is, and sounds so nice too.
Is it? Lol, they're about the only new cars selling for under MSRP around here these days.
I was drooling over a beautiful white 1967 Duetto spider the other day though. What a pretty old thing that is, and sounds so nice too.
Alfa's are probably selling under MSRP because of reliability, not looks. They are definitely pretty cars, they are just also very Italian.
I like fast sedans and find the Giulia to be one of the few really attractive cars sold these days, so when the high-end Quadrifoglio version came to the States I put my misgivings about Alfas aside long enough to strongly consider one as my last ICE car. I came to my senses after at least two of the prominent reviews at release described going through multiple vehicles as their initial review cars died. Car and Driver's 40,000-Mile Wrap-Up of their experience with the car
(https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a23145269/alfa-romeo-gi...) said the QF "broke their heart" and lists a litany of issues, with the car out of commission for 80 days out of the 14 months they spent with it. They did say the car's an absolute blast to drive when it actually works, at least.
Modern Alfas are about as reliable as german cars these days, so reliability issues are more myth than fact. That being said, German cars aren't as reliable as Japanese cars.
The real problem isn't reliability but shitty dealer networks. Alfa have a knack for finding dealership networks that think it's great fun to have them in the showroom to pull people in, but aren't terribly interested in selling them or doing a good job servicing them.
My tip is to never use the dealership for servicing your vehicles (of any brand). Find a garage that has competent people, and who have respect for the work, and then pick whatever cars they are competent to work on. You don't want to spend a lot of money on a car only to have a bunch of underpaid teenagers who can only follow a manual work on your car.
The real problem isn't reliability but shitty dealer networks. Alfa have a knack for finding dealership networks that think it's great fun to have them in the showroom to pull people in, but aren't terribly interested in selling them or doing a good job servicing them.
My tip is to never use the dealership for servicing your vehicles (of any brand). Find a garage that has competent people, and who have respect for the work, and then pick whatever cars they are competent to work on. You don't want to spend a lot of money on a car only to have a bunch of underpaid teenagers who can only follow a manual work on your car.
> Modern Alfas are about as reliable as german cars
I've just read the other day that BMW is recalling 1M+ vehicles on the US market because of engine fire issues. What?
Last weekend we went on a trip and what do you know, smoke coming out of the hood of a burning BMW X3 on the other side of the road, fire brigade etc. When we returned we saw it reduced to a pile of burned down chasis.
A woman from a neighbouring office bought a brand new BMW X6 (the butt ugly ones). She had to take it back to the dealership because the engine would overheat.
I've just read the other day that BMW is recalling 1M+ vehicles on the US market because of engine fire issues. What?
Last weekend we went on a trip and what do you know, smoke coming out of the hood of a burning BMW X3 on the other side of the road, fire brigade etc. When we returned we saw it reduced to a pile of burned down chasis.
A woman from a neighbouring office bought a brand new BMW X6 (the butt ugly ones). She had to take it back to the dealership because the engine would overheat.
They (BMW drivers) can always drive their cars like normal people, not smashing the foot on the gas pedal.
The perception of reliability still has an affect on price and depreciation. So maybe it's a good idea to buy them used.
Another complaint I've heard of Alfas is ergonomics sacrificed for looks, which is kind of a deal breaker for me.
Another complaint I've heard of Alfas is ergonomics sacrificed for looks, which is kind of a deal breaker for me.
That's probably true. Except lately. Good luck finding a cheap 4C or Giulia QV here.
The ergonomics: guilty as charged. Alfas are built for people who have the anatomy of an orangutan. I am not kidding. You need short legs and freakishly long arms to be comfortable.
But I don't mind :)
The ergonomics: guilty as charged. Alfas are built for people who have the anatomy of an orangutan. I am not kidding. You need short legs and freakishly long arms to be comfortable.
But I don't mind :)
Not using the dealership to service your car requires that you have a lot of time. " Sir, x is broken, it takes 2 days to get it from the dealer".
I've done this for 20 years now and part delivery times are identical to dealer network here. They also tend to offer you more choices when it comes to parts (cheap, standard, upgraded etc).
The Duetto is the Spider's pretty little sister. It is unreasonably beautiful for something that you used to be able to buy for not a lot of money.
I grew up with the Kamm tail cars (and later the ugly rubber duck tails), but always preferred the Roundtail cars as the perfect expression of that body. You're right, you used to be able to buy them relatively cheap (although the Alfas were always just a bit more than the Fiats, MGs, Triumphs, Datsuns, etc), but now they're getting pricey. One just sold on BaT for $97K! Though you can still find ok runners in the $20K's.
The owner of this white '67 wanted $30K, too rich for my blood. But I had fun helping to diagnose a carb leak and rotor phasing issue with it. Old Italian cars are like boats, most fun when playing with somebody else's. Besides, I've got a Porsche 951 that more than keeps me on my toes.
The owner of this white '67 wanted $30K, too rich for my blood. But I had fun helping to diagnose a carb leak and rotor phasing issue with it. Old Italian cars are like boats, most fun when playing with somebody else's. Besides, I've got a Porsche 951 that more than keeps me on my toes.
The Giulietta isn’t sold in the US (your other comment indicates region).
No, you're correct. I meant Alfas in general here are selling below MSRP, not that particular model. Hot hatches don't sell nearly as well here as they do in Europe.
Ah gotcha. And yes you’re correct on that, Alfa’s re-entry into the US market has been such a mess, if I had to guess their only buyers are enthusiasts who know the brand and appreciate the tech or people who want something that isn’t BMW/Audi/Merc but still has some visual appeal. I hope they survive as one of the few remaining enthusiast brands, would be a shame for them to follow in FIATs footsteps.
That's something I've never understood: why do hot hatches not sell in the US?
I'm not a car guy at all, but to me the Alfa Giulietta QV looks like a veyron mated with a renault and the child got the worst of both.
You mean the Renault 5 or the Megane? I happen to like both. I've driven the Megane on two of the coolest tracks in the world and the spicy versions are a hoot and a half.
However, the Renault 5 Turbo 2, now that is a thing I desire: https://youtu.be/B2HjCrnr-NE
However, the Renault 5 Turbo 2, now that is a thing I desire: https://youtu.be/B2HjCrnr-NE
> When I was a kid it was the only thing that made me car-sick, and when I started driving I couldn't stand the horrible front end feel.
I got easily carsick as a child but don't see the same effect in my kids. I am wondering if it is partly the result of more conservative uses of vinyl as an interior material. The smell of that in the summer would make my hair stand on end...
I got easily carsick as a child but don't see the same effect in my kids. I am wondering if it is partly the result of more conservative uses of vinyl as an interior material. The smell of that in the summer would make my hair stand on end...
How do I understand you. I kept a girlfriend for a long time because her father lent us his Alfa 75 Quadrifoglio. I have never driven anything more wonderful. The pleasure of those carburetors. The driving precision. I live in the mountains, every trip was a driving orgasm
Yeah...Our family changed from Saabs to BMW at some point (back when BMW was still cool and not something literally everyone owns), and I started getting less carsick.
The Saab was pretty cool but they really didn't need to do everything different only to be different. Some things were just plain weird.
The Saab was pretty cool but they really didn't need to do everything different only to be different. Some things were just plain weird.
Literally everyone owns a BMW? That's quite a bubble you're living in!
Where I grew up (in the 90s) they were known as “Basic Marin Wheels” so there are places where it’s almost the default.
They do in certain parts. Here in the greater Boston area, the roads are littered with leased BMW and Audi SUVs.
"The Census ACS 1-year survey reports that the median household income for the Boston-Cambridge-Quincy Massachusetts metro area was $94,430 in 2019, the latest figures available. Boston median household income is $8,587 higher than the median Massachusetts household income and $28,718 greater than the US median household income."
Can confirm there's a lot of cities it's true of. I bought a Hyundai/Genesis simply because I didn't want to be a BMW person.
I once owned a bright orange 1975 Alfa Sud, it was absolutely beautiful to look at but hell to maintain. I got a flat once, jacked it up and the chassis just bent. I've had a few Saab 900s over the years too and loved everything about every one of them.
I totally agree with the point about all new cars looking completely ridiculous. I have never understood why there isn't a low cost automaker that has only the bare minimum - the style barely ever changes and looks decent, manual everything, bare minimum heat/ac, minimum radio that can easily be replaced, as cheap as possible - is the only reason this doesn't exist because of ever increasing regulations?
Dacia does this in Europe, their lowest priced car that has exactly zero features comes in at 9999EUR with an optional spare wheel for an additional 150EUR.
If you want AC and a radio you’re looking at about 12k EUR, which definitely isn’t terrible. It’s a Renault subsidiary and you see a fair amount of them driving around.
So yeah, it’s not like offering an affordable bare-bone car isn’t possible in mature markets, it’s more likely that Americans just don’t have an appetite for them.
The affordable car is definitely being tested though. Renault discontinued the Twingo last year, which was their smallest car. Audi discontinued the A1, claiming there’s just no money to be made in their lowest segment.
It’s looking pretty bleak for the utilitarians among us, as electrification happens and safety features such as lane assist and emergency stop systems become mandatory, base prices will consistently be higher. You can only drive down the price of components so much.
If you want AC and a radio you’re looking at about 12k EUR, which definitely isn’t terrible. It’s a Renault subsidiary and you see a fair amount of them driving around.
So yeah, it’s not like offering an affordable bare-bone car isn’t possible in mature markets, it’s more likely that Americans just don’t have an appetite for them.
The affordable car is definitely being tested though. Renault discontinued the Twingo last year, which was their smallest car. Audi discontinued the A1, claiming there’s just no money to be made in their lowest segment.
It’s looking pretty bleak for the utilitarians among us, as electrification happens and safety features such as lane assist and emergency stop systems become mandatory, base prices will consistently be higher. You can only drive down the price of components so much.
The Audi A1 was over $30,000. That's not "testing the affordable car"! Honda HR-V and Honda Civics are selling like crazy (<$25,000). Ford Maverick at $20,000 sold out a YEAR before the vehicles had even been manufactured. America has a completely insatiable demand for <$20,000 vehicles but no one makes them.
I might love my Honda Fit, but no one else did (apparently) as it’s been discontinued.
The Fit wasn’t discontinued in North America for a lack of buyers. It was built in the same factory in Mexico where Honda builds the HR-V, which is a small crossover that is mechanically similar to the Fit. Honda found that the HR-V was more profitable and sold even better than the Fit, so they just dedicated the whole factory to HR-V production.
Sort of similar to Ford discontinuing the Focus despite it selling fairly well. It was a lot of effort for a narrow profit margin so they shifted into more profitable vehicles. A shame because the Focus and the Fit were both reasonable, affordable choices.
Sort of similar to Ford discontinuing the Focus despite it selling fairly well. It was a lot of effort for a narrow profit margin so they shifted into more profitable vehicles. A shame because the Focus and the Fit were both reasonable, affordable choices.
Worst part about discontinuing the Focus is that the Focus Electric went with it. Sure, it was a regulation-requirement car, but it drives well and does what city folks need; 100KM range is enough for most people's day. Works well as a second car.
We desperately need sub-20k electric cars and they just don't exist.
We desperately need sub-20k electric cars and they just don't exist.
I want one, sad they got discontinued. They seemed to constantly get great reviews.
There are some nice functional design elements (for instance, the back seats are truly fold flat which provides a surprising amount of storage). That said, I am honestly tempted by going up market to a GTI for a little more fun in a similar package.
I do recommend a GTI -- any recent generation. Sometimes I use it like a "truck" by folding the rear seats flat. It also serves well on longer distance drives with folks in the backseats.
I will not part with my MK6, manual 6 speed, 2L turbo! Notes: There are younger folks now that won't bother with manual. 3G telemetry just expired (yay). It's fun. And decent MPG.
I will not part with my MK6, manual 6 speed, 2L turbo! Notes: There are younger folks now that won't bother with manual. 3G telemetry just expired (yay). It's fun. And decent MPG.
My MK6 GTI M/T was totaled right after the pandemic started but before the used car market blew up. It took me a year to find a suitable replacement, but I was not budging on my requirement of an MK6 GTI (Oddly enough, my partner and I were borrowing a Saab 9-5 wagon from her dad while car hunting).
I found a 2012 M/T GTI being sold in Southern California and literally hopped on the next flight once I got confirmation that they’d sell it to me. I bought at asking ($6500, a steal just months later) and drove it back to Sacramento.
I never thought I’d be that kind of person to take a one-way flight to buy a car, but that MK6 GTI has changed me. It’s one of the few “modern” vehicles that is easy to do work on yourself. The chassis was designed to hold the larger 2.5L, 5-cylinder engine in the Golf so the smaller 2.0L Turbo left enough room to get in there and perform repairs/service without taking body panels off (cough cough BMW). Armed with a VCDS and a 10mm, I can diagnose and fix most minor things.
Super fun, easy to self service, manual transmission, not letting this go.
I found a 2012 M/T GTI being sold in Southern California and literally hopped on the next flight once I got confirmation that they’d sell it to me. I bought at asking ($6500, a steal just months later) and drove it back to Sacramento.
I never thought I’d be that kind of person to take a one-way flight to buy a car, but that MK6 GTI has changed me. It’s one of the few “modern” vehicles that is easy to do work on yourself. The chassis was designed to hold the larger 2.5L, 5-cylinder engine in the Golf so the smaller 2.0L Turbo left enough room to get in there and perform repairs/service without taking body panels off (cough cough BMW). Armed with a VCDS and a 10mm, I can diagnose and fix most minor things.
Super fun, easy to self service, manual transmission, not letting this go.
They seem pretty popular on the road
What you see on the road, on average, is what was selling well 12 years ago. Small cars tend to be more popular during long periods of bad economic times or high fuel prices. SUVs sell like hot cakes every time the US has a decade of good economic times and cheap gas.
The Fit started selling really well around the time of the 08 crash (and fuel more than doubled in price that decade):
https://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/23/honda-boosting-fit-produ...
> Like most other manufacturers doing business in the U.S., Honda has been caught by surprise by the sudden shift in demand to smaller cars.
The Fit started selling really well around the time of the 08 crash (and fuel more than doubled in price that decade):
https://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/23/honda-boosting-fit-produ...
> Like most other manufacturers doing business in the U.S., Honda has been caught by surprise by the sudden shift in demand to smaller cars.
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Dacia is so cheap that they even omit features that you might not think of as "features".
The base model Dacia Duster doesn't come with height adjustment on the driver's seat or with a glovebox light, you need to upgrade to the Comfort package for those. It does interestingly come with a radio these days, back in the day that used to require one of the upgrade packages.
The base model Dacia Duster doesn't come with height adjustment on the driver's seat or with a glovebox light, you need to upgrade to the Comfort package for those. It does interestingly come with a radio these days, back in the day that used to require one of the upgrade packages.
I drove an older (2000) Jeep Wrangler for much this reason. It came from the factory with no A/C and a bottom-tier AM/FM radio. The seat slides front to back and reclines - manually - but that’s about it. It has a heater, but didn’t work when I bought it in ~2010 and I’ve never bothered to fix it; I almost never used the rear windows when I had them, and I’ve since replaced the vinyl top with a much simpler one that doesn’t even have provision for them, so why bother?
It’s has a manual transmission and an inline 4-cylinder with very low output compared to most vehicles. Paradoxically, that combination makes it fun to drive.
It also holds its value very well. I’ve owned it for twelve of the 23 years of its life so far, and I could sell it today for more than I paid for it. At the same time, it’s extremely cheap to fix, because the design hasn’t changed often over the years and the powertrain is shared between many popular vehicles of its time.
My wife’s vehicle has far more “creature comforts”. She drives a 2015 Kia Sorento that we bought new. We’re considering upgrading hers to a new Kia Telluride in the near future, especially considering recent trends in used car prices.
There’s definitely still a place out there for mechanically simple vehicles. It’s a shame that the new Jeep Wranglers - say, the JK and newer - have gotten so much larger, more complex, and expensive to maintain.
If I had my druthers, I’d be driving something like a modern Kubelwagen, VW Thing, or perhaps something with a bit more cargo space like a Pinzgauer. It’s a shame no one seems interested in making them.
It’s has a manual transmission and an inline 4-cylinder with very low output compared to most vehicles. Paradoxically, that combination makes it fun to drive.
It also holds its value very well. I’ve owned it for twelve of the 23 years of its life so far, and I could sell it today for more than I paid for it. At the same time, it’s extremely cheap to fix, because the design hasn’t changed often over the years and the powertrain is shared between many popular vehicles of its time.
My wife’s vehicle has far more “creature comforts”. She drives a 2015 Kia Sorento that we bought new. We’re considering upgrading hers to a new Kia Telluride in the near future, especially considering recent trends in used car prices.
There’s definitely still a place out there for mechanically simple vehicles. It’s a shame that the new Jeep Wranglers - say, the JK and newer - have gotten so much larger, more complex, and expensive to maintain.
If I had my druthers, I’d be driving something like a modern Kubelwagen, VW Thing, or perhaps something with a bit more cargo space like a Pinzgauer. It’s a shame no one seems interested in making them.
I don't think my Suzuki SX4 has driver seat height adjustment, at least I've never used it if it does...
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The good thing about Dacia is that since they're made from high volume Renault parts, repairs are cheap as well.
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The problem with Dacia is that it is not just simple but also a cheap car. I would be happy to buy a simple good quality car, but Dacia saves money on plastic quality, noise insulation, engine power and seat comfort too (among others).
On the upside, Dacias are typically larger then other vehicles in the same price range. While you would you be able to buy a small city car from another manufacturer, you could actually buy a Dacia useful for the whole family. Yes, it will be underpowered and noisy, but it will be reliable, cheap to maintain and above all, safe. They get poor safety rating because of the way cars are tested today, but I argue that even a new "less safe" Dacia is safer then a 10 year old "safe" car.
Car companies don't want to sell cheap cars, they want to sell expensive cars. If they made a cheap car that people liked they wouldn't make as much money, so they purposefully make the cheap cars bad in some ways to convince people with extra money to buy more expensive cars while still allowing legitimately poor people to afford a car.
> So yeah, it’s not like offering an affordable bare-bone car isn’t possible in mature markets, it’s more likely that Americans just don’t have an appetite for them.
I do not think it is that simple. I think regulations also restrict how simple a car can be. Top of my head, breaks, lights, light colors, emissions, transmission (go figure), fuel storage, fueling features, and so on. All these add to the cost.
No one wants to drive a car that has no or minimal creature comforts.
I do not think it is that simple. I think regulations also restrict how simple a car can be. Top of my head, breaks, lights, light colors, emissions, transmission (go figure), fuel storage, fueling features, and so on. All these add to the cost.
No one wants to drive a car that has no or minimal creature comforts.
> safety features such as lane assist and emergency stop systems become mandatory
I've got a cheap $0 lane assist and emergency stop system called "paying attention and not tailgating" that came stock in my 2003 Ford Ranger. I've been using it consistently for 35 years now on different makes and models of vehicles and it hasn't failed once.
I've got a cheap $0 lane assist and emergency stop system called "paying attention and not tailgating" that came stock in my 2003 Ford Ranger. I've been using it consistently for 35 years now on different makes and models of vehicles and it hasn't failed once.
Meanwhile, there are millions of wrecks every year in the US alone. I'm sure a large portion of those drivers said the same until they got hit. You need only browse /r/IdiotsInCars for a few minutes to witness the full range of ways people with the best of intentions can get in wrecks because someone else acted like a fool, and how many could have been prevented with lane keeping and emergency stop features.
The roads are a highly regulated public space where safe, smooth motion depends on everyone working together, and where one little error can throw it into chaos. Everyone will mess up if they live long enough. You can make some philosophical argument against mandatory safety features if you like, but I hate driving as it is and welcome any feature that reduces the odds or severity of the inevitable results of the limits of human perception and reaction time.
The roads are a highly regulated public space where safe, smooth motion depends on everyone working together, and where one little error can throw it into chaos. Everyone will mess up if they live long enough. You can make some philosophical argument against mandatory safety features if you like, but I hate driving as it is and welcome any feature that reduces the odds or severity of the inevitable results of the limits of human perception and reaction time.
In my opinion, the real solution to this isn't to stuff as much driver assistance safety tech into all cars. It's to shift our society to not need cars for basic life necessities.
There are plenty of people who absolutely are not skilled at driving. They never will be. But they have to own a car to live in our society - thus, here we are.
There are plenty of people who absolutely are not skilled at driving. They never will be. But they have to own a car to live in our society - thus, here we are.
> but I hate driving as it is and welcome any feature that reduces the odds or severity of the inevitable results of the limits of human perception and reaction time.
None of this will change the fact that, you, as the driver bear primary responsibility for your own safety, and that of your passengers, when in control of a vehicle. Driver aids are helpful but are not a substitute for attentive and defensive driving.
None of this will change the fact that, you, as the driver bear primary responsibility for your own safety, and that of your passengers, when in control of a vehicle. Driver aids are helpful but are not a substitute for attentive and defensive driving.
Your post reads like you're disagreeing with something I said, but the sentence you quoted isn't in disagreement when considered in context. Maybe you need to re-read the whole thing.
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I find the cause for many issues in the US mainly in bad road design. Compare that with France, Germany or The Netherlands. So much better there. lane control hardly needed.
A large part of startup pitches boil down to "what if [thing already done well for decades in Asia and/or Europe], but worse, and expensive?" Ugly patches over the existing horror show might be the only option until there's a major cultural shift.
Our town has been replacing stoplight intersections with roundabouts, and you would think we were trying to castrate all the adult males. How people have any difficulty navigating a roundabout eludes me, but every day I see more drivers just act like they are faced with an alien when they come upon a roundabout.
Roundabouts are ubiquitous here in New Zealand, and have been for decades.
People still don't know how to use them.
People still don't know how to use them.
Are road design in Belgium worse than in the Netherlands? The death rates per mile driven is same as in the US [1].
I don't think "road design" is an issue. People in Europe drive less in general, risk groups (teenagers and elderly) drive significantly less often, there are less people who need a car to get home after a night out, higher BAC levels (0.08% vs 0.05% or less in EU), etc.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...
I don't think "road design" is an issue. People in Europe drive less in general, risk groups (teenagers and elderly) drive significantly less often, there are less people who need a car to get home after a night out, higher BAC levels (0.08% vs 0.05% or less in EU), etc.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...
> welcome any feature that reduces the odds or severity of the inevitable results of the limits of human perception and reaction time.
I have very severe doubts this is what is happening since we're just becoming more distracted and the roads are becoming more lethal.
Lane assist and braking assist just allow you to be more distracted without immediately getting punished by it, normalizing the distracted behavior.
I have very severe doubts this is what is happening since we're just becoming more distracted and the roads are becoming more lethal.
Lane assist and braking assist just allow you to be more distracted without immediately getting punished by it, normalizing the distracted behavior.
So in another conversation we were talking about house and car prices. How there aren't cheap 'starter' options available. Partially due to mandated features and codes.
I feel like in a forum of programmers there would at least be some recognition that "get gud" doesn't scale while lane assist and emergency stop work for everyone all of the time regardless of how tired or distracted the driver is.
You're the next iteration of the person complaining about anti-lock breaks because you can just learn to drive better on ice.
You're the next iteration of the person complaining about anti-lock breaks because you can just learn to drive better on ice.
> Audi discontinued the A1, claiming there’s just no money to be made in their lowest segment.
That's a shame. I'm driving A1 2020 model, and it really is the perfect little car even in the most basic of trims.
That's a shame. I'm driving A1 2020 model, and it really is the perfect little car even in the most basic of trims.
I feel as if this describes the Chevy Spark.
Renault still have the Twizy, which is smaller than a Twingo.
Let's say you make a "bare minimum" car and after all of your design costs, you can get the MSRP down to say $13,000. The problem is that once I'm already paying 13k for a "bare bones" car, I'll probably think, well, why not just pay $15,000 to get a car with sound/speakers, adjustable seats, air conditioning, automatic windows, etc. Behold, that's basically what a Chevy Spark costs (before supply chain crunch). If I'm really trying to save money beyond that, I'll just buy a used car.
What would be nice though is a car that doesn't get redesigned every few years. If I know that redesigns will only happen every 10 years, then that means cheap parts will be abundant and maintaining the car will be much cheaper.
What would be nice though is a car that doesn't get redesigned every few years. If I know that redesigns will only happen every 10 years, then that means cheap parts will be abundant and maintaining the car will be much cheaper.
I always drive old cars from 10,15 years old.
For example driving an Infinity FX35 from 2003 for about 7 years now. Never had a single issue. Bought the car for 8k.
The used car market is currently bonkers. $8k not gonna get you much of anything.
The car I bought a year ago is worth $5k more than what I paid for it. If I sell it now I’d make a profit.
Personally it's more the used car market offers a greater value than a cheap new car.
This video goes into some reasons about why cheap cars are disappearing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WYBR0tlPA8
One reason I don't see mentioned here is the perverse incentives to manufacturers to make larger cars due to CO2 emissions regulations differing depending on the size of the car. So instead of making more efficient engines to hit the targets (no doubt the intent of the regulations), they just stop making small cars.
One reason I don't see mentioned here is the perverse incentives to manufacturers to make larger cars due to CO2 emissions regulations differing depending on the size of the car. So instead of making more efficient engines to hit the targets (no doubt the intent of the regulations), they just stop making small cars.
Talk about unintended consequences.
If they had intended to reduce CO2 emissions consumption, they would have just increased taxes on things that cause CO2 emissions (e.g. a tax based on distance driven in a car that emits CO2). Or even easier, increasing taxes on fossil fuels.
However, the intent was to say they (politicians, society) did something about CO2 emissions without actually giving up anything. Which was accomplished.
However, the intent was to say they (politicians, society) did something about CO2 emissions without actually giving up anything. Which was accomplished.
I would hardly call increasing taxes on fossil fuels easy; in France it caused a protest movement of about 3 million people.
Protesting is practically the national pastime in France though.
A few years ago (2013/2014?) there was a bare bones Toyota Yaris I looked at. Cheapest 'new' car on the lot, decent mpg, etc. But... no power windows or power locks, no automatically adjustable seat. And... it was, IIRC, around $15k. For $15-16k I could get something else used with more amenities, and similar mpg/economy. Or possibly even something else new at that time with better amenities. For something with so few amenities, I would have preferred at least a 20% discount compared to other options.
I purchased a Yaris iA (a Mazda2 in Toyota drag) for $12.5K new in CA in 2016 because it was a white manual transmission. Dealer didn’t even have a salesperson who could drive it.
Deals exist on unwanted vehicles for sure. The iA always sold cheaper than the actual Toyota Yaris in my experience despite being a far superior car.
Deals exist on unwanted vehicles for sure. The iA always sold cheaper than the actual Toyota Yaris in my experience despite being a far superior car.
Wow,the cheapest used Yaris iA within 500 miles of me is a 2017 with 78k miles for $12k.
Asked the director of a community college automotive program which car was the most reliable: Yaris.
You're probably getting more than 20% in reliability/maintenance.
You're probably getting more than 20% in reliability/maintenance.
GoGet.com.au have thousands of cars in their fleet and many of them are the Yaris. For a car share company that does a lot of servicing themselves out of a van it's a simple economical vehicle that is cheap to run and own. It also holds its value reasonably when they part with it after 2-3 years or 50,000km.
I bought a Yaris as my first car to go as cheap as possible. Even electrics were more expensive despite the tax breaks. My Dad felt like a new one would break down less than a used one too which is why we avoided used.
Yaris worked well in general. I'm not surprised it's popular with college kids. It was pretty bothersome, though, how at the lowest trim level they even disabled things like cruise control. I'm three times older than any college kid and it made my ankle ache on long drives.
Yaris worked well in general. I'm not surprised it's popular with college kids. It was pretty bothersome, though, how at the lowest trim level they even disabled things like cruise control. I'm three times older than any college kid and it made my ankle ache on long drives.
One of my first cars was a geo metro hatchback - probably an equivalent. It was $6500 - a fortune (for me) at the time. But I did get around 50mpg. I took a long road trip across the country and averaged 64mpg.
I've never in my life driven a car with cruise control. Including rentals.
I'm not even 100% sure how they work...
I'm not even 100% sure how they work...
Assuming you drive any significant distance once you have it you'll never want to go back.
I'm willing to believe that.
At the same time here in New Zealand long journeys are 99% on two lane roads, with lots of corners and hills. Not sure how useful cruise control is for that.
At the same time here in New Zealand long journeys are 99% on two lane roads, with lots of corners and hills. Not sure how useful cruise control is for that.
That kind of driving (which, incidentally, is my favorite kind) wouldn't be helped at all.
This is how both Hundai and Kia started (in USA) Then both moved up-market. And Ford and GMC can't figure how to step back.
Edit: my first truck (1986 Toyota) was $6k. Manual everything and didn't even come with a radio. Most of the stuff was fixable at home (if you're handy). Didn't even have EFI. I feel like Honda used to have some of these simpler models - not just cause it was the 70/80s but also because that was a longer lasting/simpler product.
We've replaced longevity with bells/whistles as the key-feature.
Edit: my first truck (1986 Toyota) was $6k. Manual everything and didn't even come with a radio. Most of the stuff was fixable at home (if you're handy). Didn't even have EFI. I feel like Honda used to have some of these simpler models - not just cause it was the 70/80s but also because that was a longer lasting/simpler product.
We've replaced longevity with bells/whistles as the key-feature.
You used to be able to shop for a "work truck" or van from Ford or GM which would be bare-bones. Manual transmission, manual windows, no AC, no carpet, simple vinyl floor and upholstery.
Similar features may be available in an SUV or sedan but I've never seen one; would probably be a special order or maybe only available to fleet purchasers.
I haven't bought a brand new car in over 20 years so I don't know if you can still get cars like this. Rear cameras are now mandatory, so all new cars will have a screen. And if they have a screen anyway, adding more features to it is likely to happen.
Similar features may be available in an SUV or sedan but I've never seen one; would probably be a special order or maybe only available to fleet purchasers.
I haven't bought a brand new car in over 20 years so I don't know if you can still get cars like this. Rear cameras are now mandatory, so all new cars will have a screen. And if they have a screen anyway, adding more features to it is likely to happen.
You can still buy a work truck, yes. Heck, even my F250 XLT has a vinyl floor (and I like it!). But even so, they're 30K.
> Rear cameras are now mandatory, so all new cars will have a screen.
Nah, the cheap ones just put a tiny little screen in the rear view camera. Nice because it requires no other changes to the dash, and is universal across models.
> Rear cameras are now mandatory, so all new cars will have a screen.
Nah, the cheap ones just put a tiny little screen in the rear view camera. Nice because it requires no other changes to the dash, and is universal across models.
Just re-read what I wrote. Had camera on the mind, meant to say 'rear view mirror'. How anyone could upvote my nonsensical comment, I'll never know. ;-)
Probably because, like software, everyone has a different idea of what the "bare minimum" looks like. For instance, I don't think that a radio is necessary in my "bare minimum" car - but I do want a battery charge indicator, which you didn't mention.
So, an automaker can either include neither of those two features (and neither of us will want that car), both of them (which makes it more expensive, and if you adopt the policy of "take the union of all of the bare minimums" then you have a normal car), or just a subset. You lose every way.
So, an automaker can either include neither of those two features (and neither of us will want that car), both of them (which makes it more expensive, and if you adopt the policy of "take the union of all of the bare minimums" then you have a normal car), or just a subset. You lose every way.
Minimalism it tech is pretty pointless. Every simple specialty thing seems to invariably cost way more than a common complicated thing, and usually doesn't have much better reliability.
It's philosophy pretending to be engineering. Real engineer requires deep analysis, not just assuming that simple is more reliable.
It's philosophy pretending to be engineering. Real engineer requires deep analysis, not just assuming that simple is more reliable.
Reminds me of a friend who bought his Volvo 240(?) brand new. Manual transmission, but without a tachometer because that was like $200 extra. After buying the car, he headed over to the Parts department and bought a tach for $50 then went home and installed it himself.
> I have never understood why there isn't a low cost automaker that has only the bare minimum
In Europe we have Dacia which is exactly that.
In Europe we have Dacia which is exactly that.
Dacia is next on my list (currently have a 17yo ford that's beginning to get too expensive). several of my colleagues have them.
Having just filled a Diesel tank that went from €60 (last fill c600km ago) to €80 (today), 1.4l engine, my bicyle is looking even more low cost.
*will still get a Dacia for necessity, though.
*will still get a Dacia for necessity, though.
I drive a Dacia with LPG. The car is ok, but of course don't await it to be comfortable. It vibrates more, is loud especially at high speed. And there are many little "quirks" like: To let down the window at the back seats, the buttons to do so are in the middle console instead at the front door.
For my needs thats enough. The trick is to never buy a better car, so you don't get used to the more comfortable features. :)
For my needs thats enough. The trick is to never buy a better car, so you don't get used to the more comfortable features. :)
Because there isn’t any money in designing a no-frills car. Designing a brand new car and starting a brand new brand is crazy expensive so it makes sense to target the luxury market since sales will be limited.
Not to mention, when most people look at a car with manual everything and realize for $10/month more they can have power everything... they go for the car with power everything. So, dealers order their inventory accordingly.
Ability to resell low trim models is also terrible. Nobody wants to buy a base model car when for a couple hundred bucks or maybe a grand more they can get the nicer stuff.
Mitsubishi Mirage
https://www.mitsubishicars.com/cars-and-suvs/mirage
One problem with this class of cars is that they do not compete favorably with used cars.
https://www.mitsubishicars.com/cars-and-suvs/mirage
One problem with this class of cars is that they do not compete favorably with used cars.
until COVID supply chain issues and chip shortages. Could compete if they didn't need so many chips to run everything.
Most of the cost of producing a car is in the design, sheetmetal tooling, dies, employee training, etc.--i.e. it's not all from just some circuit boards, knobs, and servo motors that drive all the fancy accessories. So a brand new designed and built from scratch hyper minimal car with no accessories would still cost $15k+ and be extremely hard to sell to the public.
In reality someone shopping for a car on a budget is just going to buy a few years used instead of cutting out all the accessories in an attempt to scrimp. So the unfortunate truth is that there is no market and no profitability for a purposefully minimal car.
The closest you will find are rental market and commercial fleet vehicles like basic sedans (Chevy Malibu), pickup trucks, and vans where the automakers know there is such high demand and guaranteed income that they don't need to pad them with extra frills.
In reality someone shopping for a car on a budget is just going to buy a few years used instead of cutting out all the accessories in an attempt to scrimp. So the unfortunate truth is that there is no market and no profitability for a purposefully minimal car.
The closest you will find are rental market and commercial fleet vehicles like basic sedans (Chevy Malibu), pickup trucks, and vans where the automakers know there is such high demand and guaranteed income that they don't need to pad them with extra frills.
> I have never understood why there isn't a low cost automaker that has only the bare minimum - the style barely ever changes and looks decent, manual everything, bare minimum heat/ac, minimum radio that can easily be replaced, as cheap as possible - is the only reason this doesn't exist because of ever increasing regulations?
No, it's because people who buy new cars don't want this.
No, it's because people who buy new cars don't want this.
I don't think people know what they want when they buy a car. Manufacturers sell turd crossovers like the Equinox or Highlander in high numbers. Most of them aren't even AWD, and the ones that are AWD have shit systems in them that are barely capable in light snow and rain. They literally have no redeeming qualities, and somehow they fly off the showroom floors.
I bought a Nissan Kicks, which is in your "turd crossover" category... and I love it because it's exactly what I want.
Its redeeming qualities are light weight and responsive handling, to feel like driving a nimble hatchback rather than a lumbering SUV, while having the raised cockpit, visibility, and most of the cargo space of an SUV. Lack of AWD is a feature; I don't do any towing or driving on snow or dirt to need it; FWD is lighter and cheaper and more efficient.
People have preferences that aren't the same as yours, and insulting them isn't necessary. Crossovers are very practical and people buy them for plenty of good reasons.
Its redeeming qualities are light weight and responsive handling, to feel like driving a nimble hatchback rather than a lumbering SUV, while having the raised cockpit, visibility, and most of the cargo space of an SUV. Lack of AWD is a feature; I don't do any towing or driving on snow or dirt to need it; FWD is lighter and cheaper and more efficient.
People have preferences that aren't the same as yours, and insulting them isn't necessary. Crossovers are very practical and people buy them for plenty of good reasons.
A Kicks is in the “slightly weird shit from Nissan” category. I don’t think the parent poster was referring to it.
Doesn't change /u/vikingerik's point.
Sounds like Dacia. Or Lada, although they might be a bit tricky to export at the moment...
Yup. I have a 2002 Chevy Express 3500 cargo van who's only luxury is AC. The radio was an AM/FM I replaced with a mechless unit that died so there is no radio. The windows are hand cranked. I honestly miss nothing from a modern vehicle when I drive it save for less noise.
I also have been shopping for a new car and the selection out there is miserable what with all the stupid option games, horrible butt-ugly design, and everyone insisting that cars need more microchips than CERN for whatever reason. When I find something interesting I always run into some gotcha that turns me off.
My latest disappointment was Ford's bait and switch manual transmission Bronco (I love driving manuals)- it's only available paired with the anemic turbo I4 instead of the more powerful V6. No one is buying a 5000 pound vehicle with an I4 in it. I read an article which stated that a ford rep explained this is because manuals are unpopular so they didn't pair it with the more powerful engine option - the engine option that people like me who spec manuals want to order. Of course the manual wont sell if its paired with garbage you idiots.
I also have been shopping for a new car and the selection out there is miserable what with all the stupid option games, horrible butt-ugly design, and everyone insisting that cars need more microchips than CERN for whatever reason. When I find something interesting I always run into some gotcha that turns me off.
My latest disappointment was Ford's bait and switch manual transmission Bronco (I love driving manuals)- it's only available paired with the anemic turbo I4 instead of the more powerful V6. No one is buying a 5000 pound vehicle with an I4 in it. I read an article which stated that a ford rep explained this is because manuals are unpopular so they didn't pair it with the more powerful engine option - the engine option that people like me who spec manuals want to order. Of course the manual wont sell if its paired with garbage you idiots.
I would argue stuff like electric adjustable mirrors, seats, good AC, parking sensors, rear view cameras, even automatic transmissions are essential safety features these days. If you put a modern person in a car lacking modern features they're going to be a hazard on the road.
I do appreciate electric mirrors and air conditioning, but the rest of this list is pretty hard for me to buy. I think I'd be called a 'modern person (and one of my cars even has most of these things!)
Those cars don't have huge profit margins. They require selling in bulk to make a ton of money on them. That's why SUVs and trucks reign supreme here in the US. They're cheap to build, have less safety and emissions requirements, and people pay ridiculous money for them here. There's a reason Tesla started with premium cars, because they make more money. Same reason Ford and GM have stopped selling regular cars here. The day of the cheap car is long gone. $45000 is the average sale price here in the US for a car right now. I dunno how so many people can afford a $700+ car payment... but it's pretty normal.
They do exist, just not in the American market.
Teslas are very minimalistic I think. That's also why I don't find them interesting, e.g. a BMW iX is much more controversial (maybe uglier?).
Outside, I think the teslas are very interesting with respect to minmalism.
Nothing sticks out, they are completely smooth aerodynamically.
(I do think the aero model 3 wheels may be functional but are not attractive)
Inside the car, I think tesla's minimalism has gone too far.
The telsa model 3 without a dashboard in front of the driver is cheap, not minimal. They also reduced the stalks and overloaded the controls.
Then the recent model S/X changes went further to outright dangerous. There are no stalks at all on the steering column, and turn signals, horn and high beams are touch buttons in the middle of steering wheel. When you move, the car guesses which direction you want to go, there is no gearshift stalk. There are gearshift buttons at the bottom of the console, but no dedicated buttons for other critical functions like defrost. sigh.
Nothing sticks out, they are completely smooth aerodynamically.
(I do think the aero model 3 wheels may be functional but are not attractive)
Inside the car, I think tesla's minimalism has gone too far.
The telsa model 3 without a dashboard in front of the driver is cheap, not minimal. They also reduced the stalks and overloaded the controls.
Then the recent model S/X changes went further to outright dangerous. There are no stalks at all on the steering column, and turn signals, horn and high beams are touch buttons in the middle of steering wheel. When you move, the car guesses which direction you want to go, there is no gearshift stalk. There are gearshift buttons at the bottom of the console, but no dedicated buttons for other critical functions like defrost. sigh.
Teslas are aesthetically minimalist, but they ship with hardware to cover an eventuality that the car might not last long enough to utilize. That's the opposite of minimalist from a product perspective.
I would hardly classify Tesla as “as cheap as possible”, at least not in terms of the sticker price. Certainly not “manual everything” with all the touch interfaces.
Tesla has elevated cost-cutting-as-a-virtue to the highest art form. I'm impressed. But they're also making a run at the "only evolve, never redesign" mantra for their cars. This may change with time as more competition enters the EV market.
It's cool how Tesla and his companies in general seem to really understand the idea that things should be computers first, and not have anything that could have been software.
Sadly a lot of the other stuff is less awesome.
Sadly a lot of the other stuff is less awesome.
How about the ‘22 Honda Civic for a not completely ridiculous looking new car?
It won’t help you on the minimal features and replaceable radio though.
It won’t help you on the minimal features and replaceable radio though.
Have they redesigned the rear end yet? I drove Hondas for over 20 years but went with a VW Golf because no one over 30 should be driving the Civic with how it looks(ed) in 2018.
Yes, 2022 model is the 11th generation, much better looking than the 10th gen in my opinion.
https://automobiles.honda.com/civic-sedan
https://automobiles.honda.com/civic-sedan
If you want a bare-bones sedan, look no further than the Chevy Malibu Fleet, $23k of rental-car awfulness: https://www.gmfleet.com/cars/chevrolet-malibu
In general, if you want the most basic, low-opex car you can find, just look at what rental car companies are buying (though rental companies have been desperate for anything, so this currently doesn't apply.)
Regulations and fuel economy standards absolutely influence design. The reason most euro cars/SUVs have a sloping hood (compared to the "RAWR I AM AGGRESSIVE" square front on most American SUVs) is to meet pedestrian Euro-NCAP standards. High door sills are to provide better side impact protection, smaller windows are to lower heat/AC load for fuel economy.
"All cars" are not "looking completely ridiculous." He cites some of the most infamously ugly cars (Toyota Camry and Prius) while ignoring, oh, the entire rest of the market. There are loads of conservatively styled cars out there. Toyota intentionally dramatically changes their styling almost every year because underneath those changing body panels and tail/head lights is the stuff that's actually expensive to change. They're intentionally garish because they want the design to look exciting now, and like aged dogshit in 3 years. They also want to push their more conservative buyers into Lexuses.
Lots of decent looking cars out there.
VW's current "narrow line" design language looks like ass, but go back one or two model years and I think they're pretty fantastically well-styled cars.
The Audi A6 hasn't been an ugly looking car in at least ten years. Current model: https://www.topgear.com/sites/default/files/cars-car/image/2...
Want something more "fashion forward"? Volvo's S90 is a work of art inside and out: https://www.media.volvocars.com/image/low/171020/2_2/1
If you want a sporty sedan that looks like sex on wheels and have a big wallet, the Alfa Giulia: https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/alfa-romeo/giulia/2022/oe...
Want something a bit more conservative but sporty looking? BMW 3 series https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/bmw/3-series/2021/oem/202...
I don't get what the author is on about with the current F150. It feels like Ford is really in stride; usually they're a shitshow of fugly, awkward curves and proportions, but they seem to be making designs that not only look good in the present, but are holding up longer.
In general, if you want the most basic, low-opex car you can find, just look at what rental car companies are buying (though rental companies have been desperate for anything, so this currently doesn't apply.)
Regulations and fuel economy standards absolutely influence design. The reason most euro cars/SUVs have a sloping hood (compared to the "RAWR I AM AGGRESSIVE" square front on most American SUVs) is to meet pedestrian Euro-NCAP standards. High door sills are to provide better side impact protection, smaller windows are to lower heat/AC load for fuel economy.
"All cars" are not "looking completely ridiculous." He cites some of the most infamously ugly cars (Toyota Camry and Prius) while ignoring, oh, the entire rest of the market. There are loads of conservatively styled cars out there. Toyota intentionally dramatically changes their styling almost every year because underneath those changing body panels and tail/head lights is the stuff that's actually expensive to change. They're intentionally garish because they want the design to look exciting now, and like aged dogshit in 3 years. They also want to push their more conservative buyers into Lexuses.
Lots of decent looking cars out there.
VW's current "narrow line" design language looks like ass, but go back one or two model years and I think they're pretty fantastically well-styled cars.
The Audi A6 hasn't been an ugly looking car in at least ten years. Current model: https://www.topgear.com/sites/default/files/cars-car/image/2...
Want something more "fashion forward"? Volvo's S90 is a work of art inside and out: https://www.media.volvocars.com/image/low/171020/2_2/1
If you want a sporty sedan that looks like sex on wheels and have a big wallet, the Alfa Giulia: https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/alfa-romeo/giulia/2022/oe...
Want something a bit more conservative but sporty looking? BMW 3 series https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/bmw/3-series/2021/oem/202...
I don't get what the author is on about with the current F150. It feels like Ford is really in stride; usually they're a shitshow of fugly, awkward curves and proportions, but they seem to be making designs that not only look good in the present, but are holding up longer.
Yeah, I feel like most of the overdesigned cars in the past decade or so have come from Japan. Notably Toyota, which in my opinion has produced some of the worst car designs of the past twenty years. The pinched grill that started with their Lexus line and is now on Toyotas as well is a matter of taste I guess, but it's always reminded me of the alien's mouth in Predator, which in turn is reminiscent of an anus. I think some of the most recent Lexi pull it off, but throughout most of its history, I think that grill has been pretty awful. Honda lost its design mojo a long time ago, and its most recent Accord is ok only because it resembles a BMW. The past 20 years has been a series of mostly very forgettable Honda designs. Nissan has also produced a lot of atrocities the past couple of decades since the genuinely striking tail treatment on the 2002 Altima. The Maxima has been particularly bad. Then there's Hyundai, which has been hit or miss but who went through a very organic look for awhile that made all their cars look like they were grown in pods. They were beautiful in their own way, but like a lot of their Japanese siblings, just overdone in my opinion.
If you look at cars from their inception until about the 80s, most cars, even lower end models were aesthetically very pleasing. That's not true of most cars today. The ones you've cited are all luxury sedans and are rare to see on the road (at least where I live). Also, the cheapest is $40k. That's not practical for most people, and that's not even including operating expenses.
> If you look at cars from their inception until about the 80s, most cars, even lower end models were aesthetically very pleasing. That's not true of most cars today.
I disagree, and most people living when those cars were new would, I suspect, disagree. I would guess this is either a nostalgia-driven (positive for older designs) or overexposure-driven (negative for newer common designs) aesthetic preference.
I disagree, and most people living when those cars were new would, I suspect, disagree. I would guess this is either a nostalgia-driven (positive for older designs) or overexposure-driven (negative for newer common designs) aesthetic preference.
You have clearly forgotten about the Chrysler/Dodge K-Car series.
Your current link to the S90 is just a Volvo logo, FYI
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In EU/UK you can buy Dacias, you can check out Dacia Sandero, or Dacia Duster.
Good news!
Because brands like that suffer from poor reputation ( poor people's car), so people prefer buying second hand - it was the case for Dacia in Europe for years, and is among the reasons the Tata Nano flopped.
I suspect the car market will move to similar form as phones. Fewer models and if you want it cheap you buy the few years older one - either direct from the manufacturer/refurbed/second-hand.
It doesn't exist because nobody goes out to buy a car and says "I'll take the first one that has the fewest useful features."
>is the only reason this doesn't exist because of ever increasing regulations?
Pretty much. They preclude that car from actually being cheap enough that people would buy it over a nicer used car and as the new car market skews higher and higher end the used car market skews likewise making the competition stiffer.
>about all new cars looking completely ridiculous.
The front body work is bounded by pedestrian safety requirements in the EU and aerodynamics. The rooflines and beltlines are bounded by US safety requirements. It's no surprise that the designs all converge.
Pretty much. They preclude that car from actually being cheap enough that people would buy it over a nicer used car and as the new car market skews higher and higher end the used car market skews likewise making the competition stiffer.
>about all new cars looking completely ridiculous.
The front body work is bounded by pedestrian safety requirements in the EU and aerodynamics. The rooflines and beltlines are bounded by US safety requirements. It's no surprise that the designs all converge.
You're not wrong.
Airbags, active suspension systems, ABS, backup cameras, etc all increase the cost of cars. Though I dont know how much of that is tied to increasing price of used cars - that seems to have more to do with Cash for Clunkers taking a huge amount of used cars out of the used car market, while it put a bunch of people in new cars, it also skewed the pricing for used cars higher - it took an entire generation of used cars out of the market - which continues to effect pricing today.
Airbags, active suspension systems, ABS, backup cameras, etc all increase the cost of cars. Though I dont know how much of that is tied to increasing price of used cars - that seems to have more to do with Cash for Clunkers taking a huge amount of used cars out of the used car market, while it put a bunch of people in new cars, it also skewed the pricing for used cars higher - it took an entire generation of used cars out of the market - which continues to effect pricing today.
More recently, with the semiconductor shortage the carmakers shoved what parts they had into expensive products that would make more money.
Active air suspension is a performance part and not in most cars
I didn't say anything about air - active suspensions (electronic stability control) has been required in all US vehicles from 2012.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control#T...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control#T...
Electronic stability control is not active suspension, those are very different things. ESC isn't really even part of the suspension setup at all, it modulates the brakes in response to steering angle input & a yaw sensor.
Suzuki are very good at "minimal, but still the few features you want".
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like Suzuki sell cars in the US?
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like Suzuki sell cars in the US?
because the servicing costs are determined by workshops/companies who charge ridiculous amounts of money at will and inevitably make older cars not worth repairing. personal example: for the same repair in my home country (EU country) would normally cost 350-450e but i was asked from 1000e to 1500e in the EU country i currently live
Do you earn more money in your current EU country vs the home one? Certainly in the UK a lot of cars get purchased for scrap value taken to a cheaper country for repair (or just used for spares)
10 years ago a base model Suzuki SX4 sedan was pretty much this in the USA. Not sure about more modern stuff.
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I don't think manual everything is really practical these days, automatic gear box and windows is something most people would want even in a basic car. Even in Europe these days people move to automatic gears. But something like mid 2000 corolla or civic would be a good and reliable basic car, the question is how much it will cost to manufacture such car, if it will be around the 10k mark it will be a viable option.
Surely the computer is better than us at shifting by now anyway, right?
Right! In Europe cars with manual transmission remain very common, it allows vendors to sell the automatic version at a higher price point I imagine. At this point I’m not even sure they’re that much cheaper to make. And it’s become a weird experience—you’ll have all these features that make it feel like you’re driving a computer anyway, lane assist etc. And the car tells you when it thinks you should shift gears! I found myself muttering “if you’re so smart, why don’t you do it yourself”.
Until it gets confused like an DSG with broken mechatronics. That might just break the gearbox itself.
After that happened I drove a Toyota Corolla hybrid with a CVT and it was awesome. High mileage, tranquil, no gaps in acceleration. The only downside was that it is smaller than a Passat (GTE).
After that happened I drove a Toyota Corolla hybrid with a CVT and it was awesome. High mileage, tranquil, no gaps in acceleration. The only downside was that it is smaller than a Passat (GTE).
I have a Toyota with a CVT and it's amazing.
I think for a long time CVT's suffered from a poor reputation due to the reliability of those 1970'ies DAF cars.
I think for a long time CVT's suffered from a poor reputation due to the reliability of those 1970'ies DAF cars.
Saabs were great cars because they did practicality with a little bit of zest and elan, pure IYKYK. The death of physical buttons and simple interfaces in car interiors is an enormous safety issue. I suspect this serious issue is widely disregarded by industry because it costs less to produce and modify a software interface than a hardware interface.
I hope that cars reach a point where self-driving is real but we aren't there yet, and interfaces that require people to take their eyes off the road to navigate to basic functions are not appropriate for cars.
Don't get me started on touchscreens in planes during turbulence...and yes I am a brown station wagon with a manual kind of person.
I hope that cars reach a point where self-driving is real but we aren't there yet, and interfaces that require people to take their eyes off the road to navigate to basic functions are not appropriate for cars.
Don't get me started on touchscreens in planes during turbulence...and yes I am a brown station wagon with a manual kind of person.
I used to feel that way, then noticed my friend driving a Tesla. He had this neat use for the LCD that showed a map of where all the cars around him was as output from the sensors. Yes, theoretically, on a traditional car you can adjust the mirrors so you have no blind spot and check them all religiously before lane changes and the like - but I still felt he had more awareness of who was in what lane than someone in a traditional car would have.
I'm not hating on ADAS or even screens, FWIW I will not purchase a car without radar-based adaptive cruise control, it's a game changer and I know it's better than I am at maintaining attention over a long period of time. Nor would I begrudge anyone satellite navigation or a simple music interface.
What I am talking about is the habit burying all simple functions in menus or on touchscreens. Temperature control, vent direction, volume, fwd, back on music, basic menu navigation. Inevitably these cumulative seconds of searching add up to enhanced risk for pedestrians, cyclists and other motorists.
What I am talking about is the habit burying all simple functions in menus or on touchscreens. Temperature control, vent direction, volume, fwd, back on music, basic menu navigation. Inevitably these cumulative seconds of searching add up to enhanced risk for pedestrians, cyclists and other motorists.
My thoughts on these things:
> Temperature control
These days automatic climate control is usually pretty good. I've been using ACC since my 2000 Honda Accord EX. The only climate control feature I routinely mess with on my cars is to turn on the defroster, which at least for the cars I drive still have physical buttons. Other than that the climate control stays on automatic fan, automatic temp, and I rarely even adjust the temperature. On one of my cars even my heated seats and heated steering wheel come on automatically. Having manual climate controls leads to more distractions for me, as then I'm having to actually change controls.
> vent direction
I definitely agree this is pretty ridiculous. I don't quite get why its better, are cars with this feature automatically repositioning vents at times? I truly don't understand the value and agree with you on this. I shouldn't need a menu to open/close or reposition a vent.
> volume, fwd, back on music
Most cars have these on the steering wheel. The steering wheel controls really should be the driver's primary way of manipulating the stereo instead of taking a hand off the wheel. IMO putting the stereo controls on the touch screen ends up making me less distracted, as it essentially forces me to use the wheel and voice controls instead of messing around with controls away from actually driving the car.
Meanwhile, having the actual app available on the large screen means my passenger can dig through playlists easier, switch between apps easier, etc. It also means as we move towards having a large screen that its easier to glance and get a good idea of the map as opposed to having a smaller map in a navigation system.
> Temperature control
These days automatic climate control is usually pretty good. I've been using ACC since my 2000 Honda Accord EX. The only climate control feature I routinely mess with on my cars is to turn on the defroster, which at least for the cars I drive still have physical buttons. Other than that the climate control stays on automatic fan, automatic temp, and I rarely even adjust the temperature. On one of my cars even my heated seats and heated steering wheel come on automatically. Having manual climate controls leads to more distractions for me, as then I'm having to actually change controls.
> vent direction
I definitely agree this is pretty ridiculous. I don't quite get why its better, are cars with this feature automatically repositioning vents at times? I truly don't understand the value and agree with you on this. I shouldn't need a menu to open/close or reposition a vent.
> volume, fwd, back on music
Most cars have these on the steering wheel. The steering wheel controls really should be the driver's primary way of manipulating the stereo instead of taking a hand off the wheel. IMO putting the stereo controls on the touch screen ends up making me less distracted, as it essentially forces me to use the wheel and voice controls instead of messing around with controls away from actually driving the car.
Meanwhile, having the actual app available on the large screen means my passenger can dig through playlists easier, switch between apps easier, etc. It also means as we move towards having a large screen that its easier to glance and get a good idea of the map as opposed to having a smaller map in a navigation system.
I don't think radar is strictly necessary. The camera based adaptive cruise control in Subarus generally works pretty well except in heavy rain.
I personally wouldn't trust optical systems, but to be fair I've never driven a recent Subaru. The radar on my 2014 Volvo is extremely reliable, even in heavy rain and I make heavy use of it in nearly all traffic situations. It only ever failed me once, and I can't blame it, since that was during the worst cloud burst I ever witnessed. The Autobahn went from "nice day with medium traffic" to "<2m visibility" in less than a minute, and literally everyone pulled over to sit that one out.
From experience, the Subaru system is pretty good at lanekeeping and distance following. Never had any scary experiences with it.
Modern cars have blind spot indicators.
>interfaces that require people to take their eyes off the road to navigate to basic functions
For some cars with touch screens (like Tesla) this is an imagined problem that does not exist in reality.
>The death of physical buttons and simple interfaces in car interiors
A lot of people also falsely imagine this issue exists as well, when it doesn't. There are plenty of buttons in cars with touch screens.
For some cars with touch screens (like Tesla) this is an imagined problem that does not exist in reality.
>The death of physical buttons and simple interfaces in car interiors
A lot of people also falsely imagine this issue exists as well, when it doesn't. There are plenty of buttons in cars with touch screens.
Here is how you turn on the defrosters in a Tesla Model 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vAqolyemqE&t=8s
For those that don't want to watch the video, the answer is "press the correct spot on the far corner of a touch screen exactly the right number of times, or look at it to see what color it has turned". This is a function that occasionally needs to be done in an urgent situation, potentially also one where the "autopilot" has given up (low visibility).
For those that don't want to watch the video, the answer is "press the correct spot on the far corner of a touch screen exactly the right number of times, or look at it to see what color it has turned". This is a function that occasionally needs to be done in an urgent situation, potentially also one where the "autopilot" has given up (low visibility).
That video is just silly.
It's a lot easier to just press the button under your thumb on the steering wheel and say "turn on the defroster."
Or you can say front defroster, rear defroster, etc.
No need to do all that stuff.
So again, it's an imagined problem, not a real one. The button is muscle memory.
It's a lot easier to just press the button under your thumb on the steering wheel and say "turn on the defroster."
Or you can say front defroster, rear defroster, etc.
No need to do all that stuff.
So again, it's an imagined problem, not a real one. The button is muscle memory.
I guess you're either the one person on earth who speaks with perfect articulation at all times, or you've never been forced to use a voice interface in an emergency with a screaming child right behind you.
You do have a great imagination!
Can you do that in Mongolian or with a thick Swahili accent in English?
Let’s assume you are not trolling (lol) and give an answer. I think they use Nuance, so the accent handling and language support should be pretty good and improving steadily with time. But yes at any given time it will be possible for a troll to find some human language somewhere on earth that is not supported, no doubt. Imagined problems.
I've had three Saabs that were my daily drivers (a 99, 900 and 9000) and I'm now restoring a 1971 Saab Sonnett III [0]. All very innovative cars!
AMA
0. http://saabworld.net/wp/1970-saab-sonett-iii-heritage-collec...
AMA
0. http://saabworld.net/wp/1970-saab-sonett-iii-heritage-collec...
A hifi head guy showed me an old SAAB part, unless he's misguided they used pneumatic actuated user panels long ago. Felt insanely overengineered .. but pretty sexy at the same time.
For what its worth, up until 1970-71, vacuum operated things in cars (locks and and I think windows) were not uncommon, even beyond that, up until basically the start of the current era (2010), vacuum operated air conditioning systems (to change the flow of air) were the norm too (I suspect they still are on ICE cars). In addition, most cars with concealed headlights used vacuum motors to open and close them.
Furthermore, windshield wipers were not infrequently powered by the power steering system, rather than electrically driven. High torque electric motors in a small enough package and affordable enough didn't exist until the late 60's.
Furthermore, windshield wipers were not infrequently powered by the power steering system, rather than electrically driven. High torque electric motors in a small enough package and affordable enough didn't exist until the late 60's.
Not a mass-market product, but another fantastic anomaly in automotive engineering is the hydraulic system used to power the accessory systems in the Mercedes 600; the classic chariot of late-20th century despots and celebs.
It ran on mineral oil at a nominal pressure of IIRC 3200 psi. Could cleanly slice a finger off if poorly maintained & it sprung a leak in an inopportune corner of the system. All this to ensure that the auto's accessories operated with all the smoothness and silence that befitted a head of state.
It ran on mineral oil at a nominal pressure of IIRC 3200 psi. Could cleanly slice a finger off if poorly maintained & it sprung a leak in an inopportune corner of the system. All this to ensure that the auto's accessories operated with all the smoothness and silence that befitted a head of state.
Yeah ... and some (like my 99) had alterations made at the U.S. point-of-entry. The added A/C system was so cold it would freeze your body parts. Since the air-ducts were routed through the glove box (who doesn't want heated gloves in the winter), this also resulted in having ice-cold Cokes in the summer :)
I'm pretty sure my 1982 SAAB 900 Turbo (bought used in 1988 with about 94k miles on it from original owner) had pneumatic actuation for the dials...but it's long gone and i can't check now.
> pneumatic actuated user panels
What does that mean?
What does that mean?
the buttons would control other parts of the car through air pressure, it was bidirectional too IIRC
not sure, he only had half of a device in his shop
not sure, he only had half of a device in his shop
The Saab Sonnets are beautiful little things, especially in orange.
The one I'm working on was originally somewhere between lime and avocado green and was wrecked with about 70K miles on it in 1975. It's been in a garage ever since. The downside of a fiberglass body is that it shatters in ways a metal body wouldn't. The upside is that repairs can be as smooth and as strong as the original.
how worried should I be about Saab 900 ('78-'94) and its manual transmission reliability? I adore this car (and its lovely seats) so much I'm tempted to buy one but I hear its manual tranny is fragile.
My 900 had the automatic transmission which turned the car into a real dog. It had the same engine as my 99 but was a heavier car. My Father-in-Law had a special edition 900 with the standard transmission and it was an amazing car. It had very few mechanical problems but was unfortunately claimed by rust caused by our central PA winters.
I may be the only commenter here with a Saab as my daily driver (9-5 model). The appeal for me is partly design, as this article notes, but many other factors as well: it's fun to drive the manual turbo, a sedan with great cargo capacity (e.g. the skis easily fit in the trunk with pass-thru to back seat), known safety record, durability (yes things need to be fixed but they are generally not terminal issues), tows the trailer/boat fine with 3500# tow ability, good in snow (not AWD but gets the job done), etc. It's a labor of love but I think next step for me is a small utility pickup which won't be anywhere near as fun to drive.
You're not the only one. I still drive a 2005 Saab 9-5, but the station wagon. It is really comfortable to drive compared to other cars (I've driven mostly new Volvos, especially V40 and XC40 and I prefer the Saab any time).
I'm Swedish though, and my mom used to work at Saab back in the day when I grew up (as most of the people in that town did then).
I'm Swedish though, and my mom used to work at Saab back in the day when I grew up (as most of the people in that town did then).
Chiming in here from Finland as another 9-5 owner, 2001 model. Also a station wagon (or "farmari" as the Finns like to call it).
Definitely a much-loved model, I get appreciative comments regularly from middle-aged men whose formative years were clearly spent in Saabs. When I went to the Mercedes car dealership last weekend (thinking about upgrading to an electric vehicle), the salesman was in such raptures over my Saab he nearly forgot to try and sell me a new car.
Definitely a much-loved model, I get appreciative comments regularly from middle-aged men whose formative years were clearly spent in Saabs. When I went to the Mercedes car dealership last weekend (thinking about upgrading to an electric vehicle), the salesman was in such raptures over my Saab he nearly forgot to try and sell me a new car.
Aren't the ~2000+ models the ones that were made after GM/Opel(?) bought them out and converted to their common platforms?
Yes with a Saab engine, while my college days Saab 96 had a Ford V4 engine.
Daily driving a Turbo-X :)
Also own a facelift 9-5 sedan.
While the article was a nice read and I do love some older cars from the 80s/90s, those cars are gone. Cars look the way they do now and days because of the increased safety standards and airbags everywhere. I would much rather be driving a car today than from the 80s if I wanted safety.
That being said, there are still plenty of cars that are unique looking now, Miata, Supra, GR86, BRZ, CT5-V, CT4-V, Stinger, Taycan, and plenty more!
That being said, there are still plenty of cars that are unique looking now, Miata, Supra, GR86, BRZ, CT5-V, CT4-V, Stinger, Taycan, and plenty more!
I don't get the Saab obsession. I can't speak to anything mechanical about them, but I've seen plenty and they look like many others on the road at that time. Like, what exactly is so aesthetically interesting? a different grille design? You could make the argument about many older cars - like the Nissan Fairlady/Z - but not really the Saab.
Guilty. I've owned three Saabs in my life (1982 99, 1987 900S, 1997 900T). It's a completely irrational aesthetic addiction. I'll admit it. But as an industrial designer, I admire good design, and Saab has that in a way BMW and Mercedes do not, although Volkswagen is of the same ilk.
I'll try to answer specifically. For me it is the body shape of the 99/900. It feels organic and part of the road, the mushroomed shape makes me feel like I'm part of a natural outgrowth of entire automotive ecosystem: map + city + road + car + driver + civil engineering. The interior is also minimal and of the school of Bauhaus or Dieter Rams. The late 900's and 9-3 lost this charm and became more conventional.
There's no logic behind it, it is simply shape and form that appeals to certain people. I know people who are nuts over early BMWs, or 1950's VWs, everyone has their thing.
I'll try to answer specifically. For me it is the body shape of the 99/900. It feels organic and part of the road, the mushroomed shape makes me feel like I'm part of a natural outgrowth of entire automotive ecosystem: map + city + road + car + driver + civil engineering. The interior is also minimal and of the school of Bauhaus or Dieter Rams. The late 900's and 9-3 lost this charm and became more conventional.
There's no logic behind it, it is simply shape and form that appeals to certain people. I know people who are nuts over early BMWs, or 1950's VWs, everyone has their thing.
The late 900 and later models were also after they were bought out by GM/Opel and converted to their common platforms. Which I guess explains becoming un-Saaby.
I don't know what my parents liked about Saab but they swear up and down about Volvos' safety ratings. My dad is a swedish car nut nut and his Saab always seems to be in a state of repair.
Then he had the nerve to criticize for buying a Corolla, after teenage me got sick of dealing with auto shit after going through no less than three old, cheap Volvos that seemed to constantly need work of some kind. (Two of which had a habit of stalling at the most inopportune moments, like driving 60+ MPH on the freeway. It took years to feel safe driving again!)
Then he had the nerve to criticize for buying a Corolla, after teenage me got sick of dealing with auto shit after going through no less than three old, cheap Volvos that seemed to constantly need work of some kind. (Two of which had a habit of stalling at the most inopportune moments, like driving 60+ MPH on the freeway. It took years to feel safe driving again!)
People fell in love with the marketing. The car and its looks were irrelevant (as any good marketer would attest).
It's an easy thing to say. I used to ridicule my friends who longed for SAABs. Until a few years later I happened to drive one. Well, that was that. I was hooked.
To bad the company tanked. They had neat design going: http://www.retrotaksi.fi/en/index.html
To bad the company tanked. They had neat design going: http://www.retrotaksi.fi/en/index.html
I don't get it either. But they are unique looking and hatchbacks. You know a SAAB when you see one. Although cars were a lot more unique back in the day.
I drove one, it was fine.. (Un-remarkable, but at the time I had a 1989 GTI, that was pretty fun...)
I remember having trouble removing the key from one (Its next to the shifter... And it needed to be in reverse or something.).
I drove one, it was fine.. (Un-remarkable, but at the time I had a 1989 GTI, that was pretty fun...)
I remember having trouble removing the key from one (Its next to the shifter... And it needed to be in reverse or something.).
Good features for the price, decent pickup speed, gears are smooth, heated leather seats, interesting features like headlight wipers and night panel. Fun to drive and look great.
They are quirky and aesthetically distinguishing, especially all the orange and green.
Love my '95 Saab 900 SE turbo and will most likely never part with it if I can avoid it.
They are quirky and aesthetically distinguishing, especially all the orange and green.
Love my '95 Saab 900 SE turbo and will most likely never part with it if I can avoid it.
Have you sat in one? (at least ones from the 90s) Their seats make you go "Aaaaaahhhhhhhhh"
The quest for better fuel mileages also makes a big difference. Cars looks like jellybeans for aerodynamics. It’s also difficult to get a 6 cylinder engine compared to the past.
> It’s also difficult to get a 6 cylinder engine compared to the past.
Most of the V6's of the past were also garbage, so no loss there.
But there are still quite a few 6 cylinders out there, they just aren't necessarily cheap. Mercedes has a 3.0L V6 they love to stick in all their "midrange" AMGs for example (C43, GLC43, etc..), BMW still likes their I6 in for example the M3, Z4, and Toyota Supra. And of course Porsche still loves that flat 6 in the 911. There's also still a V6 for the Camry and a V6 Camaro among a few others.
What did mostly die is the "V6" as a generic "more power" upgrade for things like the Accord or most other midrange, midsize sedans. But the modern turbo I4s are so much better than those were, so it's not really a loss. And there's plenty of affordable V8s that are just fantastic as well.
Most of the V6's of the past were also garbage, so no loss there.
But there are still quite a few 6 cylinders out there, they just aren't necessarily cheap. Mercedes has a 3.0L V6 they love to stick in all their "midrange" AMGs for example (C43, GLC43, etc..), BMW still likes their I6 in for example the M3, Z4, and Toyota Supra. And of course Porsche still loves that flat 6 in the 911. There's also still a V6 for the Camry and a V6 Camaro among a few others.
What did mostly die is the "V6" as a generic "more power" upgrade for things like the Accord or most other midrange, midsize sedans. But the modern turbo I4s are so much better than those were, so it's not really a loss. And there's plenty of affordable V8s that are just fantastic as well.
The article seemed to be lashing out at "overly" designed card such as most modern Toyotas (and I would lump the Supra in there myself). But there are still plenty of clean, conservative, visually simple cars out there. Sadly they pretty much only come from luxury brands: BMW 2, 3 and 5 series, most Audis, Volvo S60, S90 and their wagon counterparts, several Genesis models, Golf GTI and R, etc.
My dad had a couple of SAABs that I fell in love with as a young adult. After working for a few years, my car died and I was excited to get my own SAAB. I switched to BMW after my SAAB was written off by a distracted driver and SAAB was no longer in business.
BMW has a lot of similar design objectives and delights, but it was still missing a couple of characteristics that made SAAB unique. Then I went to Volvo, who hired many of the SAAB engineers and brought over some of SAAB's character, such as the center console mounted ignition (which SAABs had as an homage to their fighter jet history).
Volvo is doing a good job at their mission of safety and style, but they still haven't captured that same feeling that SAAB did (nor do I think they intend to). I feel like BMW is the closest experience I've had to a SAAB. I wish their quality was better, and/or they were priced similar to SAAB, but their engineers seem to want to delight their buyers in the same ways that SAAB did: thoughtful design, nice materials, and fun. FUN! Most people buy cars to get from point A to B -- it's a "tool". That's fine, but it's hard to find "tools" that are also fun; yet, it's magic when you do.
That's SAAB.
BMW has a lot of similar design objectives and delights, but it was still missing a couple of characteristics that made SAAB unique. Then I went to Volvo, who hired many of the SAAB engineers and brought over some of SAAB's character, such as the center console mounted ignition (which SAABs had as an homage to their fighter jet history).
Volvo is doing a good job at their mission of safety and style, but they still haven't captured that same feeling that SAAB did (nor do I think they intend to). I feel like BMW is the closest experience I've had to a SAAB. I wish their quality was better, and/or they were priced similar to SAAB, but their engineers seem to want to delight their buyers in the same ways that SAAB did: thoughtful design, nice materials, and fun. FUN! Most people buy cars to get from point A to B -- it's a "tool". That's fine, but it's hard to find "tools" that are also fun; yet, it's magic when you do.
That's SAAB.
Volvo is now Chinese junk. My wife’s xc60 needed new motor mounts at 40k and a ring job at 50.
For the Saab lovers I present The Saab Suite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwpzhiNurI0
I personally grew up with Volvo 240's (1 GL and 2 Turbos) and bought a Saab 9000 for college. I thought Saabs were one of the best used cars at the time because they lost their value so quickly off the lot and that value just continued to plummet every year.
Not sure I'd personally point to Saab when it comes to design so much as cult appeal. I've definitely noticed the old Swedish cars are starting to surge in price as they become nostalia items though.
I personally grew up with Volvo 240's (1 GL and 2 Turbos) and bought a Saab 9000 for college. I thought Saabs were one of the best used cars at the time because they lost their value so quickly off the lot and that value just continued to plummet every year.
Not sure I'd personally point to Saab when it comes to design so much as cult appeal. I've definitely noticed the old Swedish cars are starting to surge in price as they become nostalia items though.
Ah, the highlight of my senior year AP Computer Science class along with network Quake.
Unpopular opinion in a post about Saab lovers: Saab (and Volvo) are/were fugly as hell, I'm pretty happy that those '80s designs disappeared.
I read in a book about fluid simulation that the boxy shape of the Volvo 240 was the result of a bug in the wind tunnel simulator they used, causing it to report less drag for the the boxy shape.
Maybe urban myth, but keeps popping up when I see them around town.
Maybe urban myth, but keeps popping up when I see them around town.
You're right... but as soon as you drive one of those saabs you realize just how wrong you actually are. Its the most beautiful ugly car I've ever had.
The Volvo V90 looks sharp as hell, especially for a wagon.
Ditto. They look super cool to my eye. I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on the smaller 40 model (if I can overcome my complete terror of spending money on things). The only thing that sucks is their all touch infotainment system. It is unintuitive, clunky, and so laggy (and ugly!). Just getting a phone paired took my gf and I a few minutes of awkwardly stabbing at the screen trying to figure out which swipe would lead us down the right path. It's pretty much impossible to use while driving. Most of the stuff I've test driven the last few weeks follows the same all-touch or mostly-touch setup. So, it kinda seems like something you just have to put up with these days
Yeah, looks good IMO.
I'm hoping for a resurgence of wagons in the US, and ideally manual transmissions.
It's really a shame that the most popular "cars" are trucks and SUVs, it's quite expensive and wasteful.
It's really a shame that the most popular "cars" are trucks and SUVs, it's quite expensive and wasteful.
Me too.
On Sunday I happened to park right behind exactly the car I would try to find and buy used if my occasional-use Volvo XC70 had to be replaced: a red VW Golf Alltrack wagon with tan leather and the big sunroof and 6-speed manual. (2020 was the last model year.)
I fantasized a bit about whether I could buy one and keep it long enough for my 9yo to learn to drive stick, but of course that would be a determinedly quirky and antiquarian skill to learn by then, like writing with a quill pen or using a coal furnace. (https://www.npr.org/2019/03/03/699325560/for-the-few-who-hea...) Also the used prices have gone up since I last checked a year ago!
(What will finally put the nail in the coffin of the manual is the electric car. And--yeah, I guess I obsess about this--electric wagons from Volvo and Volkswagen will be coming to the US in the next few years, though for various marketing reasons they both shy away from the word "wagon": https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39263104/new-volvo-evs-wa... and https://www.reddit.com/user/HDiess/comments/soje69/hi_reddit...)
On Sunday I happened to park right behind exactly the car I would try to find and buy used if my occasional-use Volvo XC70 had to be replaced: a red VW Golf Alltrack wagon with tan leather and the big sunroof and 6-speed manual. (2020 was the last model year.)
I fantasized a bit about whether I could buy one and keep it long enough for my 9yo to learn to drive stick, but of course that would be a determinedly quirky and antiquarian skill to learn by then, like writing with a quill pen or using a coal furnace. (https://www.npr.org/2019/03/03/699325560/for-the-few-who-hea...) Also the used prices have gone up since I last checked a year ago!
(What will finally put the nail in the coffin of the manual is the electric car. And--yeah, I guess I obsess about this--electric wagons from Volvo and Volkswagen will be coming to the US in the next few years, though for various marketing reasons they both shy away from the word "wagon": https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39263104/new-volvo-evs-wa... and https://www.reddit.com/user/HDiess/comments/soje69/hi_reddit...)
I had an Alltrack, only in white. It was totaled in an accident last November, with only 11,000 miles on it.
The first thing I thought after we knew we weren’t injured was, “oh NO I am going to have to buy a new car!”
Used Alltracks with more miles were going for both more than what I paid and more than the insurance payout (also more than I paid).
I have given up ever having a manual again. I managed to get a Honda Accord hybrid, and the only thing I can say about it is the gas mileage is nice right now. But it’s absolutely soulless, I feel unconnected to the road when driving, and it’s just boring and an appliance.
The first thing I thought after we knew we weren’t injured was, “oh NO I am going to have to buy a new car!”
Used Alltracks with more miles were going for both more than what I paid and more than the insurance payout (also more than I paid).
I have given up ever having a manual again. I managed to get a Honda Accord hybrid, and the only thing I can say about it is the gas mileage is nice right now. But it’s absolutely soulless, I feel unconnected to the road when driving, and it’s just boring and an appliance.
I'm not sure how you could return to manual transmissions. I feel like once the skill of using it is widely gone its not coming back. It would have to have a huge education campaign with it
Or transmissions at all. The future is electric and electric motors don’t need gear boxes, they have uniform torque over the entire RPM span.
To get real nitpicky here, a number of EVs still have a multi-gear transmission. It's just 2 gears instead of 6+ though. You don't have to worry about staying in an efficient RPM for electric motors, but the torque multiplication factor of gears is still useful & can be necessary.
> To get real nitpicky here, a number of EVs still have a multi-gear transmission.
The number is like 2 or so innit? Audi and Porsche have a low gear for increased torque. Rimac's Concept One had a two-speed gearbox, but Nevera (formerly C2) dropped it. Formula E cars do have 5 or 6 gears.
The number is like 2 or so innit? Audi and Porsche have a low gear for increased torque. Rimac's Concept One had a two-speed gearbox, but Nevera (formerly C2) dropped it. Formula E cars do have 5 or 6 gears.
> they have uniform torque over the entire RPM span
That's not true, electric motors make peak torque at low RPM and then it drops steadily with increasing RPM.
But yes, it's acceptable enough to allow for single speed transmissions for most road cars.
That's not true, electric motors make peak torque at low RPM and then it drops steadily with increasing RPM.
But yes, it's acceptable enough to allow for single speed transmissions for most road cars.
I mean it takes a couple of hours of practice to learn it, and maybe a week or so to really get comfortable with it. It's not that hard. Millions of people drove manual cars in the past.
Or in the present... I have yet to see an automatic in Europe (granted I haven't been paying that much attention)
What part of Europe? When I got my license 15 years ago they were a minority, but already not that uncommon in Germany. E.g. a friend from school drove an old Merc with the 4(?) gear automatic. On the other end of the scale [at least to a pupil] the new BMW 645ci owned by another friend's parents also had an automatic (Google says it was a 6 gear automatic, nothing special; I only know it had paddles for manual shifting, but the details are lost on me because for some reason his parents never let us drive the V8). They only became more common since then. These days I mostly associate them with cheaper cars (which isn't a bad thing, just economics) and expect them to vanish into obscurity within the next decade.
I drove an automatic Renault lent to me by an employer around Lyon, France for several weeks in 2005. Manuals are common in Europe, but automatics certainly exist there as well. One of the cars I routinely drive in the US today is a 5 speed manual. I do like manuals. They're a hassle if you need to operate a cell phone while driving, but that's just a bad idea in any case. One wonders if there were more manuals on the road if there would be fewer t-bone wrecks caused by people texting through red lights.
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Now that a CVT gets better mileage than a stick shift, it’s impossible to make the case for a stick. Plus, EVs don’t even have transmissions, at least not ones that need shifting.
> Now that a CVT gets better mileage than a stick shift, it’s impossible to make the case for a stick
A manual transmission is _far_ easier to rebuild than a CVT or other automatic. They also tend to be more durable, though I expect that is an advantage that has diminished or even reversed.
> Plus, EVs don’t even have transmissions, at least not ones that need shifting.
Most don’t, but some do. It depends on the voltage range; more precisely, it depends on the RPM range, which is directly correlated to input voltage.
In addition, almost all of the “classic” EV conversions I’ve seen maintain either the original transmission or an upgraded replacement with similar functionality. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOx5uCufB2Q
A manual transmission is _far_ easier to rebuild than a CVT or other automatic. They also tend to be more durable, though I expect that is an advantage that has diminished or even reversed.
> Plus, EVs don’t even have transmissions, at least not ones that need shifting.
Most don’t, but some do. It depends on the voltage range; more precisely, it depends on the RPM range, which is directly correlated to input voltage.
In addition, almost all of the “classic” EV conversions I’ve seen maintain either the original transmission or an upgraded replacement with similar functionality. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOx5uCufB2Q
CVTs are one of those things that are great on paper and suck in reality. Their overall ratio spread winds up being laughable and they traverse through it at a snails pace and the fuel economy isn't great enough to warrant putting up with that.
And my 09 Nissan Altima CVT doesn't make that great of fuel economy. Plenty of manuals/automatics that can do just as good.
Sure you can make the case! Manuals are more fun. But they've been dying a slow death in the US and are already down to ~1% of new car sales here.
Performance can be handled by an automated manual, economy by a CVT, and the future is EVs. And apparently fun and 1% of the market is not enough to convince automakers to commit to the extra $$ needed for the extra tooling, supply chain complexity, and emissions certification required to offer them as an option.
Performance can be handled by an automated manual, economy by a CVT, and the future is EVs. And apparently fun and 1% of the market is not enough to convince automakers to commit to the extra $$ needed for the extra tooling, supply chain complexity, and emissions certification required to offer them as an option.
I never understood America's irrational hate against wagons. It actually goes back decades too.
Luckily, hatchback is still somewhat available in the U.S., so that's what I drive, plus manual tranny. But they're now unicorn.
So I'm going to hold onto my baby for a long time.
Luckily, hatchback is still somewhat available in the U.S., so that's what I drive, plus manual tranny. But they're now unicorn.
So I'm going to hold onto my baby for a long time.
I'd like a 99-03 VW Jetta wagon...
EVs don't have "manual" transmissions and shouldn't/won't.
I love driving my manual ICE, but I know that my next car, which will be EV, won't have a gearbox. It'll have "forward" and "reverse".
What does "neutral" mean when your engine(s) don't "idle"? Why do you have gears if the torque is flat from zero?
EVs are going to kill off gearboxes and all of the associated mechanical linkages, dramatically reducing maintenance and repair.
I love driving my manual ICE, but I know that my next car, which will be EV, won't have a gearbox. It'll have "forward" and "reverse".
What does "neutral" mean when your engine(s) don't "idle"? Why do you have gears if the torque is flat from zero?
EVs are going to kill off gearboxes and all of the associated mechanical linkages, dramatically reducing maintenance and repair.
I completely agree. I'd buy a luxury wagon in a heartbeat. BMW makes several models, but don't ship them to the US.
Mercedes Benz makes an E-Class wagon that sells in the US (I even saw one the other day with an AMG logo on it if that's your thing), and the Volvo V90 is at least a bit upscale...
Audi makes the A6 Allroad (also A4), and Mercedes has the E-class All Terrain. Others have mentioned Volvo as well. The RS6 Avant would be the supercar version I suppose.
Based on at least the Allroad's numbers shipped since 2020, I think it's uncertain if they last in the US market. Hopefully that improves with time and supply chain issues resolving.
Based on at least the Allroad's numbers shipped since 2020, I think it's uncertain if they last in the US market. Hopefully that improves with time and supply chain issues resolving.
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I used to have a Saturday job repairing and restoring classic Saabs, mostly 93s, 95s and 96s. (Which are different from the 9-3s and 9-5s, which were almost 40 years later). They were handsome cars in a lumpy kind of way, and there were plenty of people willing to stump up the cash to have them carefully restored. (For all that the article talks about lack of aerodynamics in the 900, the 96 was a pretty aerodynamic car, perhaps rooted in Saab's genesis as an aerospace company, although I'm glad things have moved on - I hate to think how much lead and carbon monoxide I inhaled). The first turbocharged car I was driven in was a 900, and boy was that exciting - I can still remember the whine of the turbo. Have to say though, much as I love the Saabs (particularly the 96) if I had the money to get into classic cars, I'd be eyeing up a Citroen SM, rust issues notwithstanding.
the 2001 saab 9-3 turbo I got around 2007 was and is still my favorite car I've ever owned.
What is night mode and why did I use it all the time?
What is this CD? a tour of my own car... hosted by a jet fighter pilot and random disembodied female voice?
Where do I put the key? Oh, next to the gear box... like mid thigh. (the cd will tell you this is to avoid injuring your knee in an accident)
Wait, how do I remove the key? Shift to reverse? Well it won't go in reverse... oh pull up on gearbox skirt and THEN shift into reverse.
The windows rolled up and down unnecessarily fast. Faster than you're thinking.
I had little wipers on the headlights (so european!)
Its turbo suddenly died, taking the engine with it... but I would LOVE to own that car again.
What is night mode and why did I use it all the time?
What is this CD? a tour of my own car... hosted by a jet fighter pilot and random disembodied female voice?
Where do I put the key? Oh, next to the gear box... like mid thigh. (the cd will tell you this is to avoid injuring your knee in an accident)
Wait, how do I remove the key? Shift to reverse? Well it won't go in reverse... oh pull up on gearbox skirt and THEN shift into reverse.
The windows rolled up and down unnecessarily fast. Faster than you're thinking.
I had little wipers on the headlights (so european!)
Its turbo suddenly died, taking the engine with it... but I would LOVE to own that car again.
Yeah, the turbo is a known issue.
Always let it run a minute before you start your trip, especially when cold out.
Never rev the engine until a couple of minutes after water temp stopped increasing. (So the oil is up to working temp.)
Always let the engine run 30 seconds after you pulled in to park. If you ran fast or towed something, let it run a minute or two.
Change oil twice a year or every 6000 miles, which ever comes first.
Always use 5W-40 or 0W-30 fully synthetic high quality oil.
If you do this, the turbo will live many years.
If you start to see white or blue smoke on start, the turbo is shot. You still have time, but not much, to change turbo. It can be as little as a few cold starts left until it burns out. If it completely burns out, the engine will suck in oil, run dry, heat up the catalytic converter etc etc.
But if you replace the turbo when the first smoke appears, you are golden.
You have two options for turbo. New Old Stock is mostly gone. So either order a chinese Garret copy, or order a used one.
Both a used original and a chinese Garret copy cost about the same, $200-300. Both have about the same chance of working for a long time. Some of the old ones have a lot of miles left in them, and the quality of the copies seem to have a high spread.
If you or your mechanic can adapt inlets and outlets, you can put a turbo from another brand of car on your SAAB engine.
The -2003 ("original") 9-3 SAAB, are in my opinion undervalued. They look good, and they drive good.
It's not extremely fast, but I have never felt as "one" with a car as with that model, and it's also extremely forgiving. If you push it to its limits in corners, it will let you know long in advance what it's about to do. It felt completely undramatic to push it to its limits, never felt scary. I have driven both slower and faster cars which have both felt scary when approaching their limits.
For some reason, I also pretty much immediately felt "where the car is" when parking the SAAB. I have driven many cars since then, various models of Mercedes, Volvo, Citroën, VW, and also the next generation SAAB 9-3, but in all of them it's taken me a lot longer to figure exactly "where the car is" when parallel parking and such.
Always let it run a minute before you start your trip, especially when cold out.
Never rev the engine until a couple of minutes after water temp stopped increasing. (So the oil is up to working temp.)
Always let the engine run 30 seconds after you pulled in to park. If you ran fast or towed something, let it run a minute or two.
Change oil twice a year or every 6000 miles, which ever comes first.
Always use 5W-40 or 0W-30 fully synthetic high quality oil.
If you do this, the turbo will live many years.
If you start to see white or blue smoke on start, the turbo is shot. You still have time, but not much, to change turbo. It can be as little as a few cold starts left until it burns out. If it completely burns out, the engine will suck in oil, run dry, heat up the catalytic converter etc etc.
But if you replace the turbo when the first smoke appears, you are golden.
You have two options for turbo. New Old Stock is mostly gone. So either order a chinese Garret copy, or order a used one.
Both a used original and a chinese Garret copy cost about the same, $200-300. Both have about the same chance of working for a long time. Some of the old ones have a lot of miles left in them, and the quality of the copies seem to have a high spread.
If you or your mechanic can adapt inlets and outlets, you can put a turbo from another brand of car on your SAAB engine.
The -2003 ("original") 9-3 SAAB, are in my opinion undervalued. They look good, and they drive good.
It's not extremely fast, but I have never felt as "one" with a car as with that model, and it's also extremely forgiving. If you push it to its limits in corners, it will let you know long in advance what it's about to do. It felt completely undramatic to push it to its limits, never felt scary. I have driven both slower and faster cars which have both felt scary when approaching their limits.
For some reason, I also pretty much immediately felt "where the car is" when parking the SAAB. I have driven many cars since then, various models of Mercedes, Volvo, Citroën, VW, and also the next generation SAAB 9-3, but in all of them it's taken me a lot longer to figure exactly "where the car is" when parallel parking and such.
This video here does a better job of discussing what was so special about Saab during its best years, much more than just the look of the car or the aerodynamics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY-xA2w7JHQ
Saab was once a huge source of technological innovation.
That said, I think some modern cars both look cool and unique and offer a lot of great features and properties. The driving dynamics of even the most bare and basic economy cars and SUVs drive today is absurdly good when compared against some of the best cars on the road 20 years ago.
Saab was once a huge source of technological innovation.
That said, I think some modern cars both look cool and unique and offer a lot of great features and properties. The driving dynamics of even the most bare and basic economy cars and SUVs drive today is absurdly good when compared against some of the best cars on the road 20 years ago.
If they are that great, why is the company gone?
Saab was very innovative decades ago, but under GM's ownership they became less desirable and competitive against a wider field of rivals.
Ultimately, it's my opinion that Saab couldn't find their segment to occupy where their cars were
Many of their cars sat on the market too long without being updated enough to compete, and their semi-luxury not-really-sporty market segment during the GM years made it a brand that I think was hard to recommend over alternatives.
Why buy a Saab for your luxury car if you could buy a BMW, Mercedes, or Audi instead?
Why buy a Saab for your reliable family hauler if you can buy an optioned out Honda Accord instead?
Why buy a Saab for your family SUV when the only one they ever offered was a rebadged Trailblazer?
It's really just my opinion, but I think the last decade of Saab just couldn't find its buyer.
Ultimately, it's my opinion that Saab couldn't find their segment to occupy where their cars were
Many of their cars sat on the market too long without being updated enough to compete, and their semi-luxury not-really-sporty market segment during the GM years made it a brand that I think was hard to recommend over alternatives.
Why buy a Saab for your luxury car if you could buy a BMW, Mercedes, or Audi instead?
Why buy a Saab for your reliable family hauler if you can buy an optioned out Honda Accord instead?
Why buy a Saab for your family SUV when the only one they ever offered was a rebadged Trailblazer?
It's really just my opinion, but I think the last decade of Saab just couldn't find its buyer.
I really like a lot of stylings in modern cars. It's nice to see some harder angles. Never was a fan of the overly smooth, almost bubbly, look of cars from the 90's and 00's.
My father told me a story from the late 60s or early 70s.
He went to a Saab car dealership (USA). The salesman was so excited to show off the car’s indestructivness, that he opened a car door, stood on top of it, and jumped up and down.
I guess Saab and Volvo at the time marketed themselves as “tanks” on the road in terms of safety.
My father bought a Volvo 144.
He went to a Saab car dealership (USA). The salesman was so excited to show off the car’s indestructivness, that he opened a car door, stood on top of it, and jumped up and down.
I guess Saab and Volvo at the time marketed themselves as “tanks” on the road in terms of safety.
My father bought a Volvo 144.
I have an old photo somewhere of 8 of us standing on the girder-like front bumper of a 1970s Saab 900. They were solid!
Volvo 240 aka traktorn
I had a 240. My mechanic called it the "Swedish brick". Aptly named. Amazing car that I drove for 10+ years and then sold for the same price I bought it for.
A regular thought (not plan) would be to reproduce the 240 SL using lightweight materials on an appropriate EV skateboard with modern ADAS systems and not many other changes.
The 144, 164, 240, and 244 were beautiful. I just don’t think that asthetic would sell to enough people anymore. It is vastly different style than what is on the road today. Fashion changes and people move on.
Well, finally an an area of expertise of mine. And with 215 comments already. What more to add?
I drive my saabs every day. My daily driver is an old 900 turbo hatchback from the 80s. It's a constant work-in-progress as I fix it and it degrades from the beatings and many miles I give it.
I drive my 60's saab on the weekend, rolling around town on a light footprint with a engine that was actually manufactured by Ford for skidsteers, and made its way into Saab because of emissions requirements.
I sometimes drive my convertible, another 900 turbo, though mostly my mother gets the pleasure of using it.
I don't often drive my 9000 Aero, even though it's the most comfortable and modern of my Saabs, it feels like a whale. A fast whale, but I don't drive it often.
I recently acquired a base model 900 from the 90s... It has no turbo, no stick shift, no go-fast-parts. It's such a lovely around-towner I have been driving it any time I don't have to hit the highway.
I love saab. I love 80's saab. I think it's close to my dream car. When I get older, I will spend the time manufacturing upgrades to this vehicle badly needed from the factory. Maybe a better transmission. An improved rear axle would be fantastic. Common failures I have started to meter out with 3D printed parts - and sourcing them from other manufactures.
What you hear about parts is mostly rubbish. Saab made a car, bosch built everything else from the ECU and electrical sensors, to the waterpumps and brake pads. If you get smart you can find and make work crossover bits.
Right now we're trying to locate some VW distributors that have a hall sensor built in for a 4 cylinder. They're fairly close (also Bosch) to the saab 900 (pre 90) distributors, and are still available. If I can make that work on my 900 - we have many more good years on the road.
All in all... ask me anything about saab from the 60's to the 2000s. I've worked on them all and love them dearly.
I drive my saabs every day. My daily driver is an old 900 turbo hatchback from the 80s. It's a constant work-in-progress as I fix it and it degrades from the beatings and many miles I give it.
I drive my 60's saab on the weekend, rolling around town on a light footprint with a engine that was actually manufactured by Ford for skidsteers, and made its way into Saab because of emissions requirements.
I sometimes drive my convertible, another 900 turbo, though mostly my mother gets the pleasure of using it.
I don't often drive my 9000 Aero, even though it's the most comfortable and modern of my Saabs, it feels like a whale. A fast whale, but I don't drive it often.
I recently acquired a base model 900 from the 90s... It has no turbo, no stick shift, no go-fast-parts. It's such a lovely around-towner I have been driving it any time I don't have to hit the highway.
I love saab. I love 80's saab. I think it's close to my dream car. When I get older, I will spend the time manufacturing upgrades to this vehicle badly needed from the factory. Maybe a better transmission. An improved rear axle would be fantastic. Common failures I have started to meter out with 3D printed parts - and sourcing them from other manufactures.
What you hear about parts is mostly rubbish. Saab made a car, bosch built everything else from the ECU and electrical sensors, to the waterpumps and brake pads. If you get smart you can find and make work crossover bits.
Right now we're trying to locate some VW distributors that have a hall sensor built in for a 4 cylinder. They're fairly close (also Bosch) to the saab 900 (pre 90) distributors, and are still available. If I can make that work on my 900 - we have many more good years on the road.
All in all... ask me anything about saab from the 60's to the 2000s. I've worked on them all and love them dearly.
Your comment makes it seem like you mostly do work with new parts sourced cleverly, rather than my experience growing up. We had a 96 (?) 9000 with 397,000 miles when someone rear ended it to death, and we always went to saab graveyards for parts.
So do you mostly avoid the graveyards?
So do you mostly avoid the graveyards?
Mostly I do avoid them. I have stocked up on a lot of reman kits - or sourced or made my own. For my 96, which is a 1968, I sourced bearings like normal, and made gaskets by hand. A bit tedious but rewarding. For things like brake calipers, I reman those.
When it comes to irreplacable parts that wear, I gave up on finding new ones for exorbitant sums. The ill fated 900 dashboard comes to mind, baking in the sun. You'll find collectors boasting how their is uncracked, but mine is as well - given 30 or so hours of using a plastic welder and a lot of sanding it even looks half decent.
For 3D printed parts, Jordan Pagano and other have been doing it a lot longer than myself, though I have built out some vacuum manifold pieces that are NLA. In the end - I am more focused on replacing that plastic with something long term. In the case of the vacuum manifold - i took a leaf out of my Porsche 944's playbook and tapped in brass fittings, that don't leak and will never wear out! Another example is the key barrel system, which combines a reverse lockout, and starting functions, and the switch is NLA. I'm now getting ready to order a retrofit keyless fob system. The key barrel will be removed and replaced with a knob that requires no key - and since my door key barrels, and my replacement sets are wearing thin - I found a system that can also send a 12v trigger. That'll be my key going forward to lock and unlock the doors. upgrades people, upgrades...
So, it's fun. It's really fun that saab used similar systems. the Jetronic, K-Jet and others are all over volvo, porsche, saab, bmw, of the 70s-80s-and-90s... Hell my 96 even has a Solex carb...
That's not to say I haven't stripped a few 900s down. I must have a half dozen axles in my shop I rescued, cut up body panels and little pieces scattered - and a very good friend and addict who has about 20 of them in his backyard.
When it comes to irreplacable parts that wear, I gave up on finding new ones for exorbitant sums. The ill fated 900 dashboard comes to mind, baking in the sun. You'll find collectors boasting how their is uncracked, but mine is as well - given 30 or so hours of using a plastic welder and a lot of sanding it even looks half decent.
For 3D printed parts, Jordan Pagano and other have been doing it a lot longer than myself, though I have built out some vacuum manifold pieces that are NLA. In the end - I am more focused on replacing that plastic with something long term. In the case of the vacuum manifold - i took a leaf out of my Porsche 944's playbook and tapped in brass fittings, that don't leak and will never wear out! Another example is the key barrel system, which combines a reverse lockout, and starting functions, and the switch is NLA. I'm now getting ready to order a retrofit keyless fob system. The key barrel will be removed and replaced with a knob that requires no key - and since my door key barrels, and my replacement sets are wearing thin - I found a system that can also send a 12v trigger. That'll be my key going forward to lock and unlock the doors. upgrades people, upgrades...
So, it's fun. It's really fun that saab used similar systems. the Jetronic, K-Jet and others are all over volvo, porsche, saab, bmw, of the 70s-80s-and-90s... Hell my 96 even has a Solex carb...
That's not to say I haven't stripped a few 900s down. I must have a half dozen axles in my shop I rescued, cut up body panels and little pieces scattered - and a very good friend and addict who has about 20 of them in his backyard.
I've owned and loved Saabs. The 900 was absolutely bulletproof. The 9-3 I owned less so. The innovative mechanism that also locked the gear stick when the ignition key was removed was genius!
Maybe it's just me, but this article seemed to end a bit abruptly. As a die-hard Saab fan, I was left wanting a bit more.
Maybe it's just me, but this article seemed to end a bit abruptly. As a die-hard Saab fan, I was left wanting a bit more.
I remember that feature. My uncle owned a Saab and always parked the back of the car against a wall because the gear locked in reverse and only then the key could be removed.
I was 14 or so and he allowed me to park it. I was blown away by the idea of ensuring a safety feature against thieves that was so "easy".
Edit: typo
I was 14 or so and he allowed me to park it. I was blown away by the idea of ensuring a safety feature against thieves that was so "easy".
Edit: typo
I kind of like how my BMW X3 looks like a spaceship, personally. Especially all the lights at night like in the door handles. Maybe someday we'll have the fairings of all cars 3D printed at the factory and customizable to taste when ordering, though, so we can make simpler looking ones too!
same, the door handles lighting up is such a nice touch. plus all the ambient lighting on the interior in modern cars.
I do have a preference for cloth seats and more buttons in interiors though. Leather invariably ends up cracking and looking like crap, and buttons provide a much more tactile experience.
I do have a preference for cloth seats and more buttons in interiors though. Leather invariably ends up cracking and looking like crap, and buttons provide a much more tactile experience.
Dad is/was a Saab guy, and for a long period my folks had matching terracotta Saab 900's. Not sure mum ever fully forgave him for that, she wasn't consulted!!
I learned to drive in one, before buying my very own 1986 Mitsubishi Sigma.
The Saab 900 weighs 18 bazillion tonnes, and is almost impossible to to roll or skid. The Sigma weighs about 4.2 grams, and will skid sideways if you close the door too hard. Driving on the winding country roads of my youth, some rapid adjustment of driving styles was required!
I don't remember it being all that quirky tho.. I know you couldn't take the keys out of the ignition in any of the "on" positions, and I think the driver's side door could only be locked from the outside, making it hard to lock your keys in the car.
Something similar with the lights, I think, it was very hard to leave any lights on accidentally overnight and run your battery flat
And I think maybe reverse gear was an odd spot compared to other cars.. although it also made it very hard to accidentally (try to) put the car in reverse while shifting..
Given the tech level at the time tho, they were all pretty sensible solutions to issues that people had with other cars, even if they were all "operator error" problems.
I learned to drive in one, before buying my very own 1986 Mitsubishi Sigma.
The Saab 900 weighs 18 bazillion tonnes, and is almost impossible to to roll or skid. The Sigma weighs about 4.2 grams, and will skid sideways if you close the door too hard. Driving on the winding country roads of my youth, some rapid adjustment of driving styles was required!
I don't remember it being all that quirky tho.. I know you couldn't take the keys out of the ignition in any of the "on" positions, and I think the driver's side door could only be locked from the outside, making it hard to lock your keys in the car.
Something similar with the lights, I think, it was very hard to leave any lights on accidentally overnight and run your battery flat
And I think maybe reverse gear was an odd spot compared to other cars.. although it also made it very hard to accidentally (try to) put the car in reverse while shifting..
Given the tech level at the time tho, they were all pretty sensible solutions to issues that people had with other cars, even if they were all "operator error" problems.
I suppose this is one of the many reasons why I’m on my third Saab (only have bought used Saabs). It’s easy for me since I’m able to repair pretty much anything myself, but I realize it won’t last forever.
I’m worried when the time comes for the next car, I’m not sure what it’ll be…
I’m worried when the time comes for the next car, I’m not sure what it’ll be…
Well... Honestly I dream a simple car, not full of crappy sw and hw that's are by themselves an issue, as probably many, many, many others but that's not where carmakers push: they push toward cars-as-a-service model, so they need completely different cars and they know there is essentially no more room for small carmakers we have had decades ago in most developed countries, so they can steer the market not fearing any new player.
Golf-cart-style e.v. will probably be the future city-car and beside that, behind the super-expensive hypercar probably only some still expensive and still crappy models probably will exists so... It's an era that for next half a century at least it's simply gone...
Golf-cart-style e.v. will probably be the future city-car and beside that, behind the super-expensive hypercar probably only some still expensive and still crappy models probably will exists so... It's an era that for next half a century at least it's simply gone...
There's a lot of diversity in automobile design if you look outside of the top selling segments. We don't need Saab, we need a model that allows large auto manufacturers to make smaller runs of more unique cars without massive "retooling".
I wonder if the "roller skate" platform for up and coming electric vehicles will allow a more modular manufacturing pipeline and open the door to a wider variety of "shells" for new cars. Ford did a concept recently where they retrofitted a vintage pickup with an electric drive train to advertise their new electric crate motors (https://ford.to/3J2B5WW).
Personally, I'd love to see more of this, as it really opens the door for a lot of creativity regarding the body styles of what's available.
Personally, I'd love to see more of this, as it really opens the door for a lot of creativity regarding the body styles of what's available.
My guess is no. I don't think the headache with producing a large variety of cars is the drivetrain. I expect almost all of it is the crash requirements.
I'm reminded of Honda Motorcycle and its habit of making odd small-run bikes, such as the Valkyrie Rune or the NM4 Vultus. Both of those are in the premium segment of an already premium market (at least in the US/UK/etc) but it's great seeing a major manufacturer do something cool and weird. A bit like a rolling concept vehicle.
I'd love to see more of that in the car market, and I'm curious what prevents it. Safety standards might be a big part of that - of course motorbikes have very little in the way of safety systems or crash test requirements, which probably massively reduces the investment required for small-run vehicles.
Maintainability might also be part of it: there's just more stuff in a car which might have to be located and packaged differently for a different body shape, which affects anybody who has to work on it, requires a bunch of service manuals to be written, might even require spare parts to be stocked for decades, etc.
I'd love to see more of that in the car market, and I'm curious what prevents it. Safety standards might be a big part of that - of course motorbikes have very little in the way of safety systems or crash test requirements, which probably massively reduces the investment required for small-run vehicles.
Maintainability might also be part of it: there's just more stuff in a car which might have to be located and packaged differently for a different body shape, which affects anybody who has to work on it, requires a bunch of service manuals to be written, might even require spare parts to be stocked for decades, etc.
If you're in Finland, you can order a Saab cab: http://www.retrotaksi.fi/en/index.html
> And part of the reason that cars are ugly now, and that they have so many curves, is because they are more fuel-efficient; the aerodynamics of a “teardrop” design help reduce the impact of wind on the open road (ironically a design staple of Saab in the 1980s).
Fuel consumption maybe better on an engine level, but the resulting total it seems to be more or less the same as 80 years ago:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29321519#29322389
Fuel consumption maybe better on an engine level, but the resulting total it seems to be more or less the same as 80 years ago:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29321519#29322389
In other words, engine efficiency has increased dramatically but so has car safety, and those competing goals mean the bottom line efficiency is similar.
Has engine efficiency increased that much though? Serious question.
Part of the issue is that cars can't really differentiate on shape, and therefore go overboard to differentiate on styling.
Europe has strict rules about pedestrian safety - placing requirements on the shape of the front of the car to minimise damage to pedestrians on impact. Between that and the desire for low drag (for efficiency) there aren't really that many solutions. This means that most cars in Europe look fundamentally quite similar in overall shape, particularly bonnet curve at the front.
Europe has strict rules about pedestrian safety - placing requirements on the shape of the front of the car to minimise damage to pedestrians on impact. Between that and the desire for low drag (for efficiency) there aren't really that many solutions. This means that most cars in Europe look fundamentally quite similar in overall shape, particularly bonnet curve at the front.
I'm sorry -- the writer of the article lost me at the subtitle. "Optimus Prime"? Really? Optimus Prime is a semi truck. Almost no cars look like semi trucks.
Yeah, this metaphor is bizarre. Optimus Prime’s forms are a biped robot or a semi; neither is particularly “folded up”, so I have no idea what car that’s supposed to look like.
I'm not sure how canonically-correct the author is trying to be.... as much as they're just drawing comparison to transformers in general.
When I owned a Saab I loved it.
The folks over at Taliaferro made it easy to own and between them and another local mechanic, I never had repair issues.
AFAIK, they are still doing high-performance tuning with custom-parts manufacturing.
https://www.genuinesaab.com/
As usual, Jeremy Clarkson is insightful (no really), SAAB was a company full of genuine innovation and ill-disciplined management. Clarkson tells the story of General Motors, after taking over the company, giving them a car that they could sell under SAAB badges, just to get SAAB's bottom line back under control. SAAB instead changed everything, even the SatNav software, at immense cost.
As for unique and distinctive cars models, I bring you the 1976 Renault 14:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_14
An unremarkable car in every other aspect, you could not but look to it the first time you saw it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_14
An unremarkable car in every other aspect, you could not but look to it the first time you saw it.
I remember when that thing came out. There was a certain population in Germany that would buy French cars in that era, against better judgment.
Yes, the only way to get a less reliable car was to buy a Fiat (which I did).
I should add that, while growing up in Germany, my dad had a Fiat 850, Triumph Spitfire, Alfa Spider (3, with the ugly spoiler) and another Spider (the ugly 1996 spaceship looking one) which my mom still drives.
The Spitfire was an especially weird piece of crap but I inherited that and drove it for a few years and sold it for a pretty penny.
The Spitfire was an especially weird piece of crap but I inherited that and drove it for a few years and sold it for a pretty penny.
Nice article but I'm not much into Saab styling but I wouldn't mind renting a classic MG-A or MG-B for a summer trip. For a daily driver, I like my Tesla Model 3, styling and its performance and control are great in my opinion.
I have a 1977 MGB and a 2005 MG TF. I still prefer the MGB; its easy to drive, cheap to maintain (relative to buying any new car today), and you have the added benefit of being able to fix things yourself (if you're so inclined) with part availability still reasonably good after all these years (and I am by no means an actual mechanic).
I've already encountered issues with the MG TF regarding the electronics, and the difficulty in fixing things there due to proprietary lock-in (and it's 17 years old). Simply creating a spare key is a nightmare. It makes me wonder what the future of repairability on newer cars with deeply embedded but proprietary software will be like.
I've already encountered issues with the MG TF regarding the electronics, and the difficulty in fixing things there due to proprietary lock-in (and it's 17 years old). Simply creating a spare key is a nightmare. It makes me wonder what the future of repairability on newer cars with deeply embedded but proprietary software will be like.
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Ah, an MG-F was my first car, loved the style of that mid-engine roadster.
My Model 3 changed my opinion entirely on cars... the more I drive it the more I love it.
I was weary of moving to an electric drive chain and a car I can't maintain myself (my previous Mitsubishi could be serviced with scant more than a 10mm socket and an impact driver) and wasn't sure about losing almost all physical controls -- the only thing that annoys me is there is no easy way to open the glovebox, for everything else the touch screen actually seems easier than my previous physical controls.
I was weary of moving to an electric drive chain and a car I can't maintain myself (my previous Mitsubishi could be serviced with scant more than a 10mm socket and an impact driver) and wasn't sure about losing almost all physical controls -- the only thing that annoys me is there is no easy way to open the glovebox, for everything else the touch screen actually seems easier than my previous physical controls.
This article reminded me of a wonderful Saab Suite Ballet ad from 1987: https://youtu.be/yzyxGJDIUzA
I bought an '88 900 Turbo when I was 19 years old. That car and I had a LOT of fun together. The closest thing I've found to that (feeling) is my '19 Golf R.
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Well, HN, thanks for making me feel guilty about the 84 Saab 900 SPG "project car" sitting mostly untouched in my garage for... oh... 6 years?
Why don't we have more modular cars? With EV being the next big thing, why not just sell the platform and let others build on top of it?
I always wanted a Saab-Aru - best of all worlds! 9-2X
Yeah the world's least-reliable powerplant and you have to get it serviced at a Chevy dealer. Truly the perfect combination.
I think you are referring to the Saab 9-7X, which was a rebadged Chevy Trailblazer. The GP is talking about 9-2X, which was a rebadged Subaru.
At that time GM owned Saab and a large stake in Subaru, that's why Saab was selling a rebadged Impreza. When Saab inevitably went out of business, GM dealers had to do the recalls and warranty work on these cars.
I started reading the article then got distracted by the pretty squiggly links, nice little touch.
Author might enjoy “drive my car”, a new Japanese film where a Saab features prominently.
found a 1991 saab 900 turbo for you:
https://driverbase.com/vehicle/9330472/1991-saab-900-in-hins...
https://driverbase.com/vehicle/9330472/1991-saab-900-in-hins...
Crash safety puts lots of constraints on car body design. Specially at the front.
I would go for a Maserati quattroporte 1999
Yes, modern cars are ugly but Saabs were ugly when other cars looked good, sorry to say.
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I'm always amazed that so many feel strongly about car A looking better or worse than car B. The way people talk about the differences, it's like they're comparing an art nouveau house to a ranch style home -- you know, two things that have massive, immediately obvious differences.
But really, comparing cars (even across decades of time) is more like comparing trends in suits. Does it have two or three buttons? Single or double breasted? Single or double cuff? I'm amazed that anyone, barring a small minority with serious artistic sensibilities, can muster the energy to find one vastly different from the other -- at the end of the day, it's the same damn thing. A suit is a suit, a mass-market car is a car, and car appearance = 4 wheels, 4 windows, headlights, a color, generally aerodynamic shape. Everything beyond that is (in modern cars) some minor tweak. Even the two trucks the article gives as examples look basically the same to me; I'll grant that the newer model tries to look more "badass", but the metaphor of it going to bomb a village is pretty silly.
I guess it's a function of this being an extremely expensive object that was, for a long time, a status symbol. But I still can't see how people feel passionate about any of it -- again, excluding people like Jony Ive (who designs for a living) or own / desire models of car that are, in fact, vastly different (usually antiques or niche brands).
But really, comparing cars (even across decades of time) is more like comparing trends in suits. Does it have two or three buttons? Single or double breasted? Single or double cuff? I'm amazed that anyone, barring a small minority with serious artistic sensibilities, can muster the energy to find one vastly different from the other -- at the end of the day, it's the same damn thing. A suit is a suit, a mass-market car is a car, and car appearance = 4 wheels, 4 windows, headlights, a color, generally aerodynamic shape. Everything beyond that is (in modern cars) some minor tweak. Even the two trucks the article gives as examples look basically the same to me; I'll grant that the newer model tries to look more "badass", but the metaphor of it going to bomb a village is pretty silly.
I guess it's a function of this being an extremely expensive object that was, for a long time, a status symbol. But I still can't see how people feel passionate about any of it -- again, excluding people like Jony Ive (who designs for a living) or own / desire models of car that are, in fact, vastly different (usually antiques or niche brands).
The second most expensive thing most people buy, they keep it years, and 'wear' it most every day as they go about their business. It's not surprising to me that people care about the way their car looks like they care about anything else closely associated with them.
There's a lot there to care about: gas mileage, the maintenance schedule and reliability, the interior feel, and most of all, the feel of driving it.
The exterior appearance is the least consequential, least differentiated and most boring aspect of a car. So it's also not crazy to think that, perhaps, people shouldn't care so much about it. And really, they don't -- from my observation, what people care most about is the brand of the hood ornament, with various post-hoc justifications about appearance after that fact.
The exterior appearance is the least consequential, least differentiated and most boring aspect of a car. So it's also not crazy to think that, perhaps, people shouldn't care so much about it. And really, they don't -- from my observation, what people care most about is the brand of the hood ornament, with various post-hoc justifications about appearance after that fact.
However, I grew up with SAABs. I hated the things. :-)
When I was a kid it was the only thing that made me car-sick, and when I started driving I couldn't stand the horrible front end feel. It felt like driving an old man's boxer shorts.
I love old cars though. Especially old Alfa Romeos. I currently have a homologation special from 1987 (The 75 Evo) and I've owned several 75s and a GTV from 1982. Yeah, old Alfas aren't reliable. And stuff just stops working for no good reason. In fact the dash of my Evo has a reset button. It is worn. Every time I brake hard the warning lights go into 1970s disco mode. You know what? I don't mind. Because it smells like a car, sounds like it means business, looks like a car, handles like a car, and it doesn't have opinions on how it is supposed to be driven. (Well, the Evo tries to kill you with its crazy 80s turbo boost, explosive horsepower delivery and no toys to rein it in, but hey, it makes you feel alive!)