How to stop being “terminally online”(nights.bearblog.dev)
nights.bearblog.dev
How to stop being “terminally online”
https://nights.bearblog.dev/how-to-stop-being-terminally-online/
237 comments
My ex wife is an ex wife because she zoned out into Facebook constantly and stopped doing anything with the family. Then she went bananas and ran away with someone who ironically she split up with because he was always on Facebook. It can go pretty bad.
I’m super happy though as the kids stayed with me :)
I’m super happy though as the kids stayed with me :)
I'm struggling with this currently. My partner spends 3+ hours a day scrolling Instagram (I know, I checked it in her Apple phone metrics).
When we watch movies, it's me watching it and her scrolling. When we're in the car listening to music, it's just me listening to music and her scrolling. I'm starting to struggle initiating conversations because she's simply not paying attention. Whenever we're out, half her time is spent through the lense of her phone so she can take photos for her story.
She refuses to admit its a problem, disregards any argument I put forward about how it's disrupting her life, and when I really sit down with her and tell her how it makes me feels, she attacks me about the time I spend at my laptop (which I track meticulously and know its at most an hour outside of work, so she is simply using it as a defense).
I've dated girls with drug addictions before, and it was easier than this because they at least admitted it was a problem. I feel like I can't even initiate the first step with her. It's crushing, because besides this issue, she's pretty much perfect.
When we watch movies, it's me watching it and her scrolling. When we're in the car listening to music, it's just me listening to music and her scrolling. I'm starting to struggle initiating conversations because she's simply not paying attention. Whenever we're out, half her time is spent through the lense of her phone so she can take photos for her story.
She refuses to admit its a problem, disregards any argument I put forward about how it's disrupting her life, and when I really sit down with her and tell her how it makes me feels, she attacks me about the time I spend at my laptop (which I track meticulously and know its at most an hour outside of work, so she is simply using it as a defense).
I've dated girls with drug addictions before, and it was easier than this because they at least admitted it was a problem. I feel like I can't even initiate the first step with her. It's crushing, because besides this issue, she's pretty much perfect.
Sounds horrible. How did you even start dating a person like that? She must be really something special but I just can't wrap my head around it because in my experience only exceptionally dull and dumb people are like that.
That said, I am a happily married old fart so it's only natural to not get some aspects of modern life.
That said, I am a happily married old fart so it's only natural to not get some aspects of modern life.
[deleted]
Have you ever thought of making Instagram 'sliw' sometimes?
Might be unethical or it might help her to get away from it?
Perhaps talk to a therapist about how to approach it?
Might be unethical or it might help her to get away from it?
Perhaps talk to a therapist about how to approach it?
sliw?
Honestly looking back at my situation which paralleled yours, life’s not worth suffering through. Took 7 years to sort it out here which was a big chunk of my life. If you’re not happy, get out of the situation that makes you unhappy as soon as you can. The regrets hurt more than the relationship problems did.
I'm sorry to read this, I also have a similar same situation with my father.
He's in his late 70's and a year ago bought himself an iPhone. He now spends ~4 hours a day reading a tabloid newspaper app, which has endless content. His attention span has fallen noticeably and he can't keep up with conversations that happen in the same room while he's "scrolling".
When I visit he's on his phone, and we go out for a walk (in the beautiful countryside around us) he stops and disengages when his app sends him the latest notification about what's happened on "love island", or some other nonsense. When I leave he's on his phone.
I tried to talk to him about it, and about how it's particularly effecting my mother, who I can see is lonely and lost a person she could talk to, important at their time of life. He just gets defensive and angry, which leads no-where.
Will he spend the most of the rest of his life looking at a screen?
Edit: wording of final sentence.
He's in his late 70's and a year ago bought himself an iPhone. He now spends ~4 hours a day reading a tabloid newspaper app, which has endless content. His attention span has fallen noticeably and he can't keep up with conversations that happen in the same room while he's "scrolling".
When I visit he's on his phone, and we go out for a walk (in the beautiful countryside around us) he stops and disengages when his app sends him the latest notification about what's happened on "love island", or some other nonsense. When I leave he's on his phone.
I tried to talk to him about it, and about how it's particularly effecting my mother, who I can see is lonely and lost a person she could talk to, important at their time of life. He just gets defensive and angry, which leads no-where.
Will he spend the most of the rest of his life looking at a screen?
Edit: wording of final sentence.
Similar with my father but he's got a dumb phone and browses on his laptop. When we have conversations with family he seems to always tune out after a few minutes and goes on the computer. His whole world view has been flipped upside down by conspiracy and hoax content. We've talked to him about not mentioning that stuff while we're over but it seems to be affecting his happiness nonetheless.
Mine too. It seems like every old father has fallen into the right wing conspiracy cesspool that has warped their mind. An entire generation lost. I really wonder what makes them so susceptible to that content. Internet illiteracy? Old age? It's just who they are? In other words, they want the conspiracies to be true, they want a reason to hate Fauci, Greta Thunberg etc.?
And even more, I wonder if it can be cured. I think it ties into how socially isolated men are, especially old men. Once you retire and your work social network is gone, their only social ties are online. They need to identify with a community, and I guess there is something appealing to being in a conspiracy in-group. It's just impossible to pull them out, because you have to replace that group with something else. And there's just nothing there for them.
And even more, I wonder if it can be cured. I think it ties into how socially isolated men are, especially old men. Once you retire and your work social network is gone, their only social ties are online. They need to identify with a community, and I guess there is something appealing to being in a conspiracy in-group. It's just impossible to pull them out, because you have to replace that group with something else. And there's just nothing there for them.
Maybe a life of manual labor, always feeling like you can't get ahead in life. Then a group of people tell you it's because of some simple reason that you need to get angry about. Obviously it's something that you can't actually do anything about. So it makes you feel worse and makes you feel like you're at least doing something when you consume the content and spread it to others.
> It seems like every old father has fallen into the right wing conspiracy cesspool that has warped their mind.
Unfortunately this is not an age thing. Youngsters just have the tendency to embrace different manias (e.g. woke movement).
Unfortunately this is not an age thing. Youngsters just have the tendency to embrace different manias (e.g. woke movement).
Left and right politics aren’t equal. Just because they are on opposite sides.
But the extreme ends do have similar features (hatred of certain ethic/racial groups, black and white thinking, desire to destroy the existing political order instead of reform it, conspiratorial thinking, etc.). The fact that you don’t think they’re equal is just because you have more sympathy towards one end of the spectrum over the other.
Why would the extreme left have hatred of certain ethnic/racial groups? Which ones would that even be? I hope this isn’t some the left hates white people thing. Bigotry of superficial things doesn’t make sense for what the hard left is about.
Conspiratorial thinking for the hard left is nothing close to what it is like for the alt-right. They are basically not similar at all. The alt-right is about Q, saying Trump lost a rigged election, or thinking moderates are grooming children and molesting kids. What is the equivalence with the hard left?
The black and white thinking is also super simplistic. How do moderates not have black and white thinking in comparison to the extremes? IE a moderate would say don’t vote or spend time on any one but the two main party candidates in the US. In other countries, they’d say focus on who has a proper chance of being elected. Black and white thinking and self fulfilling.
> The fact that you don’t think they’re equal is just because you have more sympathy towards one end of the spectrum over the other.
Or maybe I know they aren’t equal because they aren’t. Perhaps it says more about you and only you, that you jump to such an assumption and conclusion without knowing me.
Conspiratorial thinking for the hard left is nothing close to what it is like for the alt-right. They are basically not similar at all. The alt-right is about Q, saying Trump lost a rigged election, or thinking moderates are grooming children and molesting kids. What is the equivalence with the hard left?
The black and white thinking is also super simplistic. How do moderates not have black and white thinking in comparison to the extremes? IE a moderate would say don’t vote or spend time on any one but the two main party candidates in the US. In other countries, they’d say focus on who has a proper chance of being elected. Black and white thinking and self fulfilling.
> The fact that you don’t think they’re equal is just because you have more sympathy towards one end of the spectrum over the other.
Or maybe I know they aren’t equal because they aren’t. Perhaps it says more about you and only you, that you jump to such an assumption and conclusion without knowing me.
> Why would the extreme left have hatred of certain ethnic/racial groups? Which ones would that even be? I hope this isn’t some the left hates white people thing.
I think Asians are considered privileged (so almost as bad as whites), and there was something wrong with Israel, too.
> saying Trump lost a rigged election
Some people on the left said similar things when Trump won the 2016 election.
I think Asians are considered privileged (so almost as bad as whites), and there was something wrong with Israel, too.
> saying Trump lost a rigged election
Some people on the left said similar things when Trump won the 2016 election.
Something wrong with Israel isn’t racism or bigotry.
Why would the left be the ones that put Asians on a pedestal? Fox, and alt right places put Asians in America on a pedestal enough already. It’s a regular thing when shitting on black people or brown migrants need to be kicked down by the [hard] right. I’d be curious of even minimal widespread hard left caring of Asians in a specific way.
Also, “almost as bad as whites”? Are you saying the hard left finds white people to be [really] bad? That’s something I specifically called out as an incorrect thing. It is a random talking point that to stir things up. I wish people wouldn’t take bullshit peddled seriously. Knowledge of hard left principles and people would show this is wrong.
Finally, some people everywhere of any kind are always saying something. A small portion of hard left people saying X is rigged is not comparable to the significant chunk of the moderate and extreme right doing the same.
———
I hope I have been able to keep the record straight that the extreme left isn’t the same as the extreme right and most assumptions or accusations of what the hard left is, have not and are not correct.
Why would the left be the ones that put Asians on a pedestal? Fox, and alt right places put Asians in America on a pedestal enough already. It’s a regular thing when shitting on black people or brown migrants need to be kicked down by the [hard] right. I’d be curious of even minimal widespread hard left caring of Asians in a specific way.
Also, “almost as bad as whites”? Are you saying the hard left finds white people to be [really] bad? That’s something I specifically called out as an incorrect thing. It is a random talking point that to stir things up. I wish people wouldn’t take bullshit peddled seriously. Knowledge of hard left principles and people would show this is wrong.
Finally, some people everywhere of any kind are always saying something. A small portion of hard left people saying X is rigged is not comparable to the significant chunk of the moderate and extreme right doing the same.
———
I hope I have been able to keep the record straight that the extreme left isn’t the same as the extreme right and most assumptions or accusations of what the hard left is, have not and are not correct.
Well, I'm 10 years younger than dewclin Senior and I recently switched to a Nokia dumb phone for the summer and I have been keeping a record of screen time and what I was actually doing on the laptop. Using a paper page a day diary.
I'm not in the tabloid market segment, and perhaps I had the insight to self-diagnose? Did dewclin Senior do much before the iPhone arrived?
Perspective: I remember that Uncle Dave spent most of his (long) retirement watching sport on the telly back in the 1970s/80s. Any chance of sparking an outside interest?
I'm not in the tabloid market segment, and perhaps I had the insight to self-diagnose? Did dewclin Senior do much before the iPhone arrived?
Perspective: I remember that Uncle Dave spent most of his (long) retirement watching sport on the telly back in the 1970s/80s. Any chance of sparking an outside interest?
Ah sounds like my father. He’s currently going through Musk is Jesus’ second coming and covid is a hoax phase.
My father thinks Putin is just waiting for the right time to strike and set everything right in the world.
We don't talk much, not because we fight but because he's always too busy with his phone when I visit him :(
We don't talk much, not because we fight but because he's always too busy with his phone when I visit him :(
This can be especially difficult for people who work online and particularly in social media where responding quickly to comments can be part of the role/expectation/defensive response.
Unfortunately you can't change a person. You can offer them an ultimatum, then whichever way it goes, so much the better.
If you don't have kids with her, move on. She's made clear what her priorities are, or she needs the wakeup call that a failed relationship will bring.
maybe she's not perfect. maybe you just don't know her well enough because she's not there most of the time and you don't have projects you both really care about
I have a similar issue with my wife. The reason you can’t initiate the first step is because they are in denial that it’s a problematic addiction. Everything is telling them that social media is “sort of okay” even though the studies abound proving it’s a nefarious addiction.
It’s easier with hard drugs cause society, government, and even business mostly agrees it’s likely bad for you (except alcohol, that one still gets a free pass).
For me, I still try to remind her to be in the moment. She’ll ask to watch a show or movie and within 5 minutes her brain has pulled up her phone to read Reddit. I pause the show and then I’ll ask, “do you want to stop watching?”
She’ll reluctantly put her phone away (sometimes I have to wait a whole minute for her to actually put it down) and then I’ll resume the show on the TV.
The addiction is very very real and their diminishing attention span shows in their behaviour in other ways as well.
It’s easier with hard drugs cause society, government, and even business mostly agrees it’s likely bad for you (except alcohol, that one still gets a free pass).
For me, I still try to remind her to be in the moment. She’ll ask to watch a show or movie and within 5 minutes her brain has pulled up her phone to read Reddit. I pause the show and then I’ll ask, “do you want to stop watching?”
She’ll reluctantly put her phone away (sometimes I have to wait a whole minute for her to actually put it down) and then I’ll resume the show on the TV.
The addiction is very very real and their diminishing attention span shows in their behaviour in other ways as well.
Having done a fair share of substance abuse, I can tell you that screen and social media addiction is exactly like any other addiction. The brain mechanics behind it are the same. "Just another hit and then I am done".
The Power of Habit (the book) helped me identify my bad habits the moment they triggered.
Also, what's fascinating is that addictions seem to bundle together. If I get off the sauce, start working out, etc, it becomes immediately easier to ignore the phone, social media, and other reflexive behavior, like snacking for no reason.
The Power of Habit (the book) helped me identify my bad habits the moment they triggered.
Also, what's fascinating is that addictions seem to bundle together. If I get off the sauce, start working out, etc, it becomes immediately easier to ignore the phone, social media, and other reflexive behavior, like snacking for no reason.
I totally feel you on the bundling.
One way I think about it: Marvin Minsky long ago wrote a book called Society of Mind, looking at human cognition as a series of semi-independent non-conscious agents. If I feel bad long enough, there's a collection of feel-better-in-the-short-term agents that work well together: mindless snacking, doomscrolling, playing video games, binge watching, overeating etc. Basically anything that helps me avoid being present in feeling bad. Even if in the long term they make me feel worse.
But there's a competing set of agents, the ones that mean regular exercise and eating healthily and good sleep and low stress levels. That set not only works well when I'm feeling good, but they're what helps keep me feeling good in the long term.
Either set can achieve a stable equilibrium, but the two sets aren't really compatible.
Not sure if that makes any sense, but that's one way I think about it.
One way I think about it: Marvin Minsky long ago wrote a book called Society of Mind, looking at human cognition as a series of semi-independent non-conscious agents. If I feel bad long enough, there's a collection of feel-better-in-the-short-term agents that work well together: mindless snacking, doomscrolling, playing video games, binge watching, overeating etc. Basically anything that helps me avoid being present in feeling bad. Even if in the long term they make me feel worse.
But there's a competing set of agents, the ones that mean regular exercise and eating healthily and good sleep and low stress levels. That set not only works well when I'm feeling good, but they're what helps keep me feeling good in the long term.
Either set can achieve a stable equilibrium, but the two sets aren't really compatible.
Not sure if that makes any sense, but that's one way I think about it.
>mom is too busy with Facebook again
That sent shivers down my spine, wow.
That sent shivers down my spine, wow.
My mom's been lost to Facebook and gambling apps for years. At some point in the last couple years I told her I didn't love her anymore because being around her is only negative and her screen addiction has put my life in danger on the road my entire life, and caused her to completely skip out on providing for her children.
Zuck, Zynga, all of them can be launched into deep space for all I care.
Zuck, Zynga, all of them can be launched into deep space for all I care.
Unfortunately it's not unusual: "I wish mum's phone was never invented"[0]
[0]https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-44224319
[0]https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-44224319
It’s so sad, I wonder if we’ll ever learn the full impact on kids from their parents’ phone addictions. I recently took my daughter to a playground and watched in horror another young couple there. Their 5 year old was nearly crying for them to pay attention and play with her, but there were mom and dad: hunched over their phones, doing that zoned-out zombie stumble-walk that people do when they are addict-scrolling. Really heartbreaking.
A lot of educators have voiced concerns that kids in the last few years have displayed extreme regression in social skills. I don't think these two things aren't related.
A lot of good questions to ask yourself here. But,
> have you ever used/applied "internet slang" (cringe, based, cuck, chad) in/to real-life situations?
I take slight issue with this one. To me, there is no difference between “internet slang” and just “slang”. The internet is ubiquitous and the language we use online and offline is largely the same now.
Didn’t always be this way. I still remember the first time I heard a friend say “epic fail” in really life circa 2005 or so, and it was like some sort of glass wall had been broken between our real lives and our internet lives. But that wall is long gone, and I think that’s probably okay.
> have you ever used/applied "internet slang" (cringe, based, cuck, chad) in/to real-life situations?
I take slight issue with this one. To me, there is no difference between “internet slang” and just “slang”. The internet is ubiquitous and the language we use online and offline is largely the same now.
Didn’t always be this way. I still remember the first time I heard a friend say “epic fail” in really life circa 2005 or so, and it was like some sort of glass wall had been broken between our real lives and our internet lives. But that wall is long gone, and I think that’s probably okay.
There are actually a huge chunk of the population that just isn't very online, and genuinely don't know these terms. (Even many young people.) It was a real eye opener to meet some 'terminally offline' people and realize you can actually just escape and things are fine without being here constantly.
Makes me think it might be similar to the "I don't watch TV" or "movies" or "sports" crowds. Just any pervasive cultural activity in which some don't participate but still carry on.
I remember before I deleted my FB account (I've since created a new one), my buddy said to me that I'd be ok, just that I might be strongly disconnected from culture—not necessarily to tell me to not do it, but to be aware of the potential ramifications.
I remember before I deleted my FB account (I've since created a new one), my buddy said to me that I'd be ok, just that I might be strongly disconnected from culture—not necessarily to tell me to not do it, but to be aware of the potential ramifications.
Agreed partially.
You have to question what "culture" are you missing on.
I'm still on Facebook and let me tell you, you're not missing much in the culture department.
You have to question what "culture" are you missing on.
I'm still on Facebook and let me tell you, you're not missing much in the culture department.
Maybe not mass culture, per say, as that may have happened elsewhere. Maybe it was the conversation with friends, events, new lingo, reactions, updates, etc.—more focused on maybe a more local, group culture than a higher level US or global culture.
> I'm still on Facebook and let me tell you, you're not missing much in the culture department.
guy above you might have deleted his fb account in the early 2000s. right now, the culture isn't at fb, it's at places like reddit and 4chan.
guy above you might have deleted his fb account in the early 2000s. right now, the culture isn't at fb, it's at places like reddit and 4chan.
> right now, the culture isn't at fb, it's at places like reddit and 4chan
The fact that people in 2022 describe 4chan as having any kind of effect on our culture should send shivers down our collective spines.
/pol/ is 4chan, 4chan is /pol/
The fact that people in 2022 describe 4chan as having any kind of effect on our culture should send shivers down our collective spines.
/pol/ is 4chan, 4chan is /pol/
> The fact that people in 2022 describe 4chan as having any kind of effect on our culture should send shivers down our collective spines.
4chan has always been the undercurrent of digital culture. It's just way closer to the surface now. And contrary to popular belief, the entirety of 4chan isn't some den of degenerates and racists. People end up focusing on /b/ and /pol/, when the entire reason they were created was to quarantine that sort of discussion from infecting the rest of the boards. /fit/, /sci/, /mu/ etc are about as toxic as any subreddit.
4chan has always been the undercurrent of digital culture. It's just way closer to the surface now. And contrary to popular belief, the entirety of 4chan isn't some den of degenerates and racists. People end up focusing on /b/ and /pol/, when the entire reason they were created was to quarantine that sort of discussion from infecting the rest of the boards. /fit/, /sci/, /mu/ etc are about as toxic as any subreddit.
1)That's still pretty toxic.
2)/pol/ overruns and sets the tone for the rest of the boards on 4chan IME. That's why I personally stopped reading there.
2)/pol/ overruns and sets the tone for the rest of the boards on 4chan IME. That's why I personally stopped reading there.
Early to mid 2010s, I think, and yes, I think it was more of a cultural current in some ways then.
I have no Facebook, Instagram, Snap, or any similar accounts. In casual converstation, I sometimes notice meme references or slang that I don't know, but that's about it. Not a big problem or loss IMO.
The importance of Internet memes is overblown by the always-online crowd. They are cultural phenomena, but not knowing them doesn’t confer disadvantages.
> In casual converstation, I sometimes notice meme references or slang that I don't know, but that's about it. Not a big problem or loss IMO.
It would be a loss if your cohort planned/converse using those methods of communication, and you valued doing things with that cohort.
It would be a loss if your cohort planned/converse using those methods of communication, and you valued doing things with that cohort.
I think this was the bigger issue for me: missing out on what my friends were doing. It was a pain (and still is) to make accommodations for the one or two people who aren't on a platform, just as it would annoy me to remember to include the one person on Zoom when I'd be in an in-person meeting with 15 people. Switching modalities can add just enough friction to mean the one not on the platform misses out.
Perhaps some wanted that, maybe even I did—conflicted in wanting freedom from it and also fearing the loss of it.
Perhaps some wanted that, maybe even I did—conflicted in wanting freedom from it and also fearing the loss of it.
It's not nearly that severe. In cases where I don't understand some reference, it's often clear by context. If not, I say "what does that mean?"
I should have written “exclusively planned/conversed”. As in you simply will not know about outings or get togethers, and so you simply will not see them.
[deleted]
I can be online constantly and escape whatever the flavour of the month is. The only time it bites me in the ass is when I get banned for not being up to date on whatever everyone good and decent has to agree with to be good and decent.
If you are getting banned regularly from online communities you might want to reconsider why that is happening
Yeah, online communities reflexively "other" anyone who does not agree with their increasingly robust (aka fascist) political dogma, given that that sort of thing seems to be inescapably creeping into everything
How many times have I walked by a table in a cafe to overhear someone complaining that it's impossible to be taken seriously unless you adopt extremeist left or right schools of thought?
How many times have I witnessed adherents dismissing moderates or centrists? Accusing them of helping the "enemy"? What about people who think for themselves and have concluded something out of the mainstream? Throwing in some other unrelated political cause and accusing anyone who doesn't agree to be wrong?
It's disgusting, and those communities should be ashamed of themselves
I'm assuming, of course, that GP is a decent person and independent thinker, as those types tend to get railroaded in this glorious new dawn of political groupthink
How many times have I walked by a table in a cafe to overhear someone complaining that it's impossible to be taken seriously unless you adopt extremeist left or right schools of thought?
How many times have I witnessed adherents dismissing moderates or centrists? Accusing them of helping the "enemy"? What about people who think for themselves and have concluded something out of the mainstream? Throwing in some other unrelated political cause and accusing anyone who doesn't agree to be wrong?
It's disgusting, and those communities should be ashamed of themselves
I'm assuming, of course, that GP is a decent person and independent thinker, as those types tend to get railroaded in this glorious new dawn of political groupthink
> glorious new dawn of political groupthink
[citation needed]
I don't see any reason to think that "groupthink", aka societal or subcultural values and beliefs, is at a notably higher level than much of history. In the west, look at the long dominance of the Catholic Church. Even after the rise of the Protestants, it was often more a set of competing orthodoxies, such that large groups were eager to cross oceans to get away from oppression. And when those people got to the US, quite a lot of them were eager to become the oppressors. Looks at the predominance of blue laws across the US. Look at who got tarred and feathered. Who got lynched. Who dealt with segregation and Jim Crow. Look at the Red Scare, the socially narrow dominance of mass media, or how eager and how violent the forces of conformity were in the 1950s.
I think today people are generally freer that at any point. But two big things have changed. One, the rise of the internet means the one-way, conformist channels of mass media have given way to everybody talking to everybody. And two, cultural power is no longer concentrated in a narrow slice of society, such that people previously unheard are now having some things to say.
I get why some people see that as "political groupthink". When you're in a dominant group, you're not used to getting challenged. But personally, I find it bracing, causing me to rethink a lot of things I took as givens because that's what the people around me believed. The death of old paradigms is always uncomfortable, but personally I'd much rather live in this era of ferment than in one where everybody believes the same comfortable old certainties.
[citation needed]
I don't see any reason to think that "groupthink", aka societal or subcultural values and beliefs, is at a notably higher level than much of history. In the west, look at the long dominance of the Catholic Church. Even after the rise of the Protestants, it was often more a set of competing orthodoxies, such that large groups were eager to cross oceans to get away from oppression. And when those people got to the US, quite a lot of them were eager to become the oppressors. Looks at the predominance of blue laws across the US. Look at who got tarred and feathered. Who got lynched. Who dealt with segregation and Jim Crow. Look at the Red Scare, the socially narrow dominance of mass media, or how eager and how violent the forces of conformity were in the 1950s.
I think today people are generally freer that at any point. But two big things have changed. One, the rise of the internet means the one-way, conformist channels of mass media have given way to everybody talking to everybody. And two, cultural power is no longer concentrated in a narrow slice of society, such that people previously unheard are now having some things to say.
I get why some people see that as "political groupthink". When you're in a dominant group, you're not used to getting challenged. But personally, I find it bracing, causing me to rethink a lot of things I took as givens because that's what the people around me believed. The death of old paradigms is always uncomfortable, but personally I'd much rather live in this era of ferment than in one where everybody believes the same comfortable old certainties.
I think you are meaningfully contributing to the conversation, but you don’t get to drop a “[citation needed]” and then proceed to state your un-cited opinions.
I do in fact get to do that.
The parts that were my opinions ("I think", "I see", etc) were clearly cited to me. But a fair bit of what I wrote was pointers to things people can look up. If there's something apparently factual that you're having trouble looking up, let me know and I'm glad to give you a pointer. Because I'm happy to give citations when people ask for them.
The reason I put a "citation needed" in was that was phrased as an objective claim, not a personal opinion. An objective claim I believe to be false. (And which I'll note that the author didn't give any further data on despite me asking.)
The parts that were my opinions ("I think", "I see", etc) were clearly cited to me. But a fair bit of what I wrote was pointers to things people can look up. If there's something apparently factual that you're having trouble looking up, let me know and I'm glad to give you a pointer. Because I'm happy to give citations when people ask for them.
The reason I put a "citation needed" in was that was phrased as an objective claim, not a personal opinion. An objective claim I believe to be false. (And which I'll note that the author didn't give any further data on despite me asking.)
Growing up I do not remember political associations to be so strong in folks. Twenty years ago, when 9/11 hit, we put aside our differences in a remarkable display of national unity. (Granted, not all good came out of this; a number of racial groups saw a ton of negative attention at the time. But even with that, the climate felt like one of unity, at least for me.) Comedians like Trey Parker/Matt Stone, Dave Chapelle, even Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert would regularly poke the bear on a wide range of social issues without constantly sparking nationwide outrages.
Now, we have... this: an endless cacophony of unqualified and undeserving voices spouting off whatever they want, for every purpose other than advancing productive debate. Where all get to be heard regardless of merit, yet original ideas suppressed because of pedantry (like "citation needed") and not having the backing of the melange of different social issues and media idols that we suffer under today. I don't think the political climate has been so stifling since at least McCarthyism, and for this I blame Twitter and social media.
I don't understand how you think such flowery, subjective language constitutes an objective statement of reality; all of my input into this matter is pretty clearly stated as opinion and observations outlined serve to reinforce it.
Besides, sitting there banging out "Citation Needed" like this was fucking Wikipedia is a crass, petulant move, and wholly inappropriate for something as counterfactual as a comment board. You can save the nitpicking for r/AskHistorians, where the rules clearly require it.
Now, we have... this: an endless cacophony of unqualified and undeserving voices spouting off whatever they want, for every purpose other than advancing productive debate. Where all get to be heard regardless of merit, yet original ideas suppressed because of pedantry (like "citation needed") and not having the backing of the melange of different social issues and media idols that we suffer under today. I don't think the political climate has been so stifling since at least McCarthyism, and for this I blame Twitter and social media.
I don't understand how you think such flowery, subjective language constitutes an objective statement of reality; all of my input into this matter is pretty clearly stated as opinion and observations outlined serve to reinforce it.
Besides, sitting there banging out "Citation Needed" like this was fucking Wikipedia is a crass, petulant move, and wholly inappropriate for something as counterfactual as a comment board. You can save the nitpicking for r/AskHistorians, where the rules clearly require it.
> Growing up I do not remember political associations to be so strong in folks.
Depends on when you grew up, but assuming the 1985 is your birth year, then political polarization has been asymmetrically increasing since well before you were born. Take a look at the DW-NOMINATE data for the US House: https://xkcd.com/1127/large/
This asymmetric polarization mirrors doctrinal polarization among white US evangelicals, who have, for example, gone from having a plurality of views on abortion to treating it as an absolute doctrinal litmus test: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/02/18/the-bib...
I can believe that for you personally 9/11 felt unifying, but that wasn't the case for a lot of people. Not just including the Sikhs and Muslims lynched, of course, or all the people who saw that and got nervous. But also the notable percentage of Americans opposed to the Iraq war, which Bush began beating the drums for just months after 9/11.
I also believe that you perceived American culture as more unified then. But based on what? Twitter didn't launch until 2006, and didn't really take off until 2010. If a bunch of people were upset about something, how would you have known? Especially if they were in some group that didn't get a lot of mass media attention, you wouldn't have. It's not that edgy comedians were any less awful then. It's that the people they were being shitty about generally didn't get the chance to express their feelings on it. I think the problem you're seeing is not differing views, but people with those different views finally getting their say.
> political climate has been so stifling since at least McCarthyism
Oh? Why don't you break that down for me with some examples. Go through the major harms of the Red Scare era and then some examples of people similarly harmed today. I think that's wrong, but I'm happy to learn something.
> was fucking Wikipedia is a crass, petulant move, and wholly inappropriate for something as counterfactual
I don't think you quite understand what counterfactual means, but I think take your point. Your notion seems to be that this is a fact-free zone, and that it's shockingly rude to ask if their claims have any basis in fact. I obviously think that's ridiculous. If you want to go entirely unchallenged, maybe get a talk radio show or something. But as long as I've been here, asking for evidence has been a popular activity.
Depends on when you grew up, but assuming the 1985 is your birth year, then political polarization has been asymmetrically increasing since well before you were born. Take a look at the DW-NOMINATE data for the US House: https://xkcd.com/1127/large/
This asymmetric polarization mirrors doctrinal polarization among white US evangelicals, who have, for example, gone from having a plurality of views on abortion to treating it as an absolute doctrinal litmus test: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/02/18/the-bib...
I can believe that for you personally 9/11 felt unifying, but that wasn't the case for a lot of people. Not just including the Sikhs and Muslims lynched, of course, or all the people who saw that and got nervous. But also the notable percentage of Americans opposed to the Iraq war, which Bush began beating the drums for just months after 9/11.
I also believe that you perceived American culture as more unified then. But based on what? Twitter didn't launch until 2006, and didn't really take off until 2010. If a bunch of people were upset about something, how would you have known? Especially if they were in some group that didn't get a lot of mass media attention, you wouldn't have. It's not that edgy comedians were any less awful then. It's that the people they were being shitty about generally didn't get the chance to express their feelings on it. I think the problem you're seeing is not differing views, but people with those different views finally getting their say.
> political climate has been so stifling since at least McCarthyism
Oh? Why don't you break that down for me with some examples. Go through the major harms of the Red Scare era and then some examples of people similarly harmed today. I think that's wrong, but I'm happy to learn something.
> was fucking Wikipedia is a crass, petulant move, and wholly inappropriate for something as counterfactual
I don't think you quite understand what counterfactual means, but I think take your point. Your notion seems to be that this is a fact-free zone, and that it's shockingly rude to ask if their claims have any basis in fact. I obviously think that's ridiculous. If you want to go entirely unchallenged, maybe get a talk radio show or something. But as long as I've been here, asking for evidence has been a popular activity.
No, I am not saying this is a fact-free zone. What I am saying is that it is a zone for opinions, which may or may not be true (counterfactual may not be the best word choice here, but it is close enough), and is not to be held to the same standard as wikipedia, whose copy you are using in what I read as a flippant remark.
I don't have data for you, just my perceptions and opinions. There are too many structural problems with the way political data is collected in this country (starting with the wording on questions in political surveys, and ending far beyond redistricting shenanigans). Given how deceptive and manipulative most election campaigns are, and how third parties are disproportionately disadvantaged financially, I don't think that looking at the proportion of left/right seats in congress is a good proxy for political polarization.
What I do see as a proxy is the behavior of those around me, and then trying to extrapolate that to reflect a larger population. I live in one of many pockets of conservativism in a very liberal state, and I am judging on the tone and tenor of political conversations and how freely friendly, amicable political debate flows among social groups in a fairly politically diverse area. Again, this is highly subjective for many different reasons, and I can say that I used to travel around a lot and have rubbed shoulders with many different social groups and castes in this society, and so I feel that I am at least somewhat qualified to extrapolate here.
And that observation is that political discussion is getting narrower, more pointed, and more focused on nationally-popular memes/issues. 12 years ago I sat in a meeting of one of the local tea-party chapters, and it was mostly older folks rabblerousing over local stuff. There wasn't much in the way of conspiracy theories, there wasn't a whole bunch of liberal shit-talking, just a bunch of people bitching about this-or-that with the local schooldistrict. When they happened to pick on my own high school, I knew that much of what they were saying was factually false, and I was able to state to the crowd why, and that was that. (There was some grumbling but the conversation turned elsewhere.) There were both left- and right-leaning folks in my friend group, and there was a quiet understanding to not get into political debates, and people weren't on-edge about it so if something was said, it didn't blow up.
We didn't have too many local crazies flying massive American flags on their trucks, with their cheap shots at trolling regular folks -- but now we do; there are places I can go where I can see them on a regular and predictable basis.
Nowadays I stay out of political shit, people are way too toxic, obsessive, and focusing on the same dozen or so things that everyone else is talking about. What would this tea party meeting have looked like today?
I have a different social group now; one that I like far more but we are very left-leaning, and increasingly (and troublingly) so. There is a much higher proportion of "polsplaining" (like mansplaining, but politicos talking down to people that offend them), many more suggestions that people self-evaluate (and insinuations that they are bad for towing a particular line), and hot political buzzwords are on people's tongues (and used as scapegoats) far more often than I can recall. I find myself hesitating to argue some points as I don't really want to die on any of these hills.
When the Roe v Wade decision dropped I broke my rule and attended a local rally, as I was pissed (much like everyone else). But at that rally someone got up on the podium and actively denounced people that not only just opposed abortion or womens health issues, but also anyone that opposed Black Lives Matter, anyone that opposed reparations, anyone that opposed ACAB; they kept calling for a unified front to address all of these issues as one.
I don't recall overhearing anyone complaining about feeling unable to speak up, but in the last year or two it has occurred multiple times at my usual haunts.
But once again this is all subjective experience of one person, albeit someone who tries to be at least somewhat perceptive and thoughtful about it. I have an axe to grind, so I am very quick to denounce certain cohorts -- hence my original comment here -- but again this is all subjective and nowhere have I explicitly asserted anything as fact. If you take the omission of certain wording as an attempt at factuality, you should consider that certain kinds of language training encourage writing in a way that minimizes some phrasing as a matter of style, and that it is very common in many places where people write professionally.
I don't have data for you, just my perceptions and opinions. There are too many structural problems with the way political data is collected in this country (starting with the wording on questions in political surveys, and ending far beyond redistricting shenanigans). Given how deceptive and manipulative most election campaigns are, and how third parties are disproportionately disadvantaged financially, I don't think that looking at the proportion of left/right seats in congress is a good proxy for political polarization.
What I do see as a proxy is the behavior of those around me, and then trying to extrapolate that to reflect a larger population. I live in one of many pockets of conservativism in a very liberal state, and I am judging on the tone and tenor of political conversations and how freely friendly, amicable political debate flows among social groups in a fairly politically diverse area. Again, this is highly subjective for many different reasons, and I can say that I used to travel around a lot and have rubbed shoulders with many different social groups and castes in this society, and so I feel that I am at least somewhat qualified to extrapolate here.
And that observation is that political discussion is getting narrower, more pointed, and more focused on nationally-popular memes/issues. 12 years ago I sat in a meeting of one of the local tea-party chapters, and it was mostly older folks rabblerousing over local stuff. There wasn't much in the way of conspiracy theories, there wasn't a whole bunch of liberal shit-talking, just a bunch of people bitching about this-or-that with the local schooldistrict. When they happened to pick on my own high school, I knew that much of what they were saying was factually false, and I was able to state to the crowd why, and that was that. (There was some grumbling but the conversation turned elsewhere.) There were both left- and right-leaning folks in my friend group, and there was a quiet understanding to not get into political debates, and people weren't on-edge about it so if something was said, it didn't blow up.
We didn't have too many local crazies flying massive American flags on their trucks, with their cheap shots at trolling regular folks -- but now we do; there are places I can go where I can see them on a regular and predictable basis.
Nowadays I stay out of political shit, people are way too toxic, obsessive, and focusing on the same dozen or so things that everyone else is talking about. What would this tea party meeting have looked like today?
I have a different social group now; one that I like far more but we are very left-leaning, and increasingly (and troublingly) so. There is a much higher proportion of "polsplaining" (like mansplaining, but politicos talking down to people that offend them), many more suggestions that people self-evaluate (and insinuations that they are bad for towing a particular line), and hot political buzzwords are on people's tongues (and used as scapegoats) far more often than I can recall. I find myself hesitating to argue some points as I don't really want to die on any of these hills.
When the Roe v Wade decision dropped I broke my rule and attended a local rally, as I was pissed (much like everyone else). But at that rally someone got up on the podium and actively denounced people that not only just opposed abortion or womens health issues, but also anyone that opposed Black Lives Matter, anyone that opposed reparations, anyone that opposed ACAB; they kept calling for a unified front to address all of these issues as one.
I don't recall overhearing anyone complaining about feeling unable to speak up, but in the last year or two it has occurred multiple times at my usual haunts.
But once again this is all subjective experience of one person, albeit someone who tries to be at least somewhat perceptive and thoughtful about it. I have an axe to grind, so I am very quick to denounce certain cohorts -- hence my original comment here -- but again this is all subjective and nowhere have I explicitly asserted anything as fact. If you take the omission of certain wording as an attempt at factuality, you should consider that certain kinds of language training encourage writing in a way that minimizes some phrasing as a matter of style, and that it is very common in many places where people write professionally.
The past as you see it here doesn't exist, by my own perception. There were a lot more extremeist groups in the shadows, but that contained them and isolated those that sought to join them. With so much of this extremeism out in the open, people are now seeing social reinforcement where before they would have seen chastisement, and I think this is a bad thing. We were much better as a country as the great melting pot, than we are now as the salad bowl.
I think its wonderful that so many oppressed groups are given opportunities at the podium, but the problem is that many of these oppressed groups are oppressed for good reason (like white supremacists), and there needs to be some sort of filter that keeps them sidelined. Unfortunately I don't see how to achieve that without some sort of orthodoxy, and right now the people that are trying to write that are fucking crazy.
I think its wonderful that so many oppressed groups are given opportunities at the podium, but the problem is that many of these oppressed groups are oppressed for good reason (like white supremacists), and there needs to be some sort of filter that keeps them sidelined. Unfortunately I don't see how to achieve that without some sort of orthodoxy, and right now the people that are trying to write that are fucking crazy.
thrown_22(1)
During the piratebay trial, one of the founders got a question about if he had met someone IRL. He replied with that they don't use that expression but AFK (away from keyboard) instead. Becuase IRL (in real life) suggests that internet is not real life, but it is.
What we do online effects our every day life even when we are offline.
I thought that was very sane thinking
What we do online effects our every day life even when we are offline.
I thought that was very sane thinking
Perhaps that was the case for him, because he was already in the situation discussed by the author.
When you are running the Pirate Bay the internet is real life, and it also is when you have a business, but when you are on an MMORPG or Twitter it is real life to a much lesser degree. How can we distinguish between them? Well, the majority of relationships made on MMORPGs or Twitter go nowhere outside the platform, and the things that people discuss on them also tend to not involve anything that will still be there when the person logs off. That creates a pocket universe (with a few exceptions, I think some people have met their spouses on MMORPGs) unrelated to the real one. Operating Pirate Bay, or even talking about Linux kernel drivers on IRC, doesn't meet that criteria of being separate from real life.
plenty of "real life" places also fail this test though. most work/school relationships don't "go anywhere" outside of that bubble. what fraction of people you hung out with in school or ate lunch with at previous jobs do you still actually talk to? how much of the code you wrote still runs in production?
Hopefully the money you make at work bleeds out into real life. :-) Also, I think a lot of people stay in touch with their college friends.
Besides that, the recognition that your school or office is a bubble universe in certain ways sounds like an important one. You sound like you're attempting to refute the idea but I think you're making a good point. Someone who implicitly thought their highschool was the whole universe would be in bad shape when they graduated.
Besides that, the recognition that your school or office is a bubble universe in certain ways sounds like an important one. You sound like you're attempting to refute the idea but I think you're making a good point. Someone who implicitly thought their highschool was the whole universe would be in bad shape when they graduated.
I think I remember reading a Reddit post once about a girl whose boyfriend would say things in real life like "can we get some f's in the chat boys". Things that were clearly very niche and would either be completely unintelligible to the audience or at best sound out of place. I think it's a matter of reading the room.
Every day that goes by, the out group of internet slang and memes grows smaller. I don't really know if I'd consider this a good thing or a bad thing so much as just, a thing. But there's a lot of joking amongst younger internet folk about how they'll probably be talking internet slang in retirement homes in a few decades. It's a funny visual, perhaps because of the weird perception that we always think we will be like today's older people as we grow older for some reason.
Those Reddit threads make for good entertainment today, however fake they probably usually are. But for better or worse, some day, I suspect it's going to flip around.
Those Reddit threads make for good entertainment today, however fake they probably usually are. But for better or worse, some day, I suspect it's going to flip around.
20 years ago, my mother heard me use the word "hack" in a casual context and panicked, assuming on the basis of the word alone that I meant criminal activity.
2 years ago, I was walking through Target and an advertisement came across the store loudspeakers touting "Mom hacks." Nerd culture has spread.
2 years ago, I was walking through Target and an advertisement came across the store loudspeakers touting "Mom hacks." Nerd culture has spread.
This shows that nerd language has spread.
I would posit that the Instagram "mom hack" "lifehack" crowd don't associate the word with computer programming or pwning boxen.
I would posit that the Instagram "mom hack" "lifehack" crowd don't associate the word with computer programming or pwning boxen.
“F’s in the chat” doesn’t strike me as a particularly obscure meme.
If you went to some public place with a fairly representative sample of the population, like a supermarket or something, and asked 100 people about that phrase, how many do you think would know provenance of it?
Never heard it before. After a couple of seconds of pondering, I assumed it meant "females" but I can see from other replies that is wrong.
It's from a Call of Duty video game. The game had a scene where you were at a characters funeral, and a prompt came up saying "Press F to Pay Respects". This was widely criticized and mocked by players, and it spread from there to be used to either legitimately convey respect or to sarcastically mock something.
Never heard it. What does it mean? Is it like a Slack shortcut?
In one of the call of duty games, you attend a funeral and when you reach the casket, an onscreen prompt asks you to press F to pay your respects. This took on a life of its own, and now on Reddit threads you’ll see people saying press f to pay respects when someone was figuratively killed.
Wow, okay, and they claimed it's not an obscure reference, but you have to have played a certain level in a certain game AND been on a certain forum to know what it means? Maybe obscure doesn't mean what I think it means.
It's a popular meme so you don't have to have played the game or even really be much of a gamer. You'd have come across it at some point hanging out on social media.
You may be surprised both by
1. how many people don’t “hang out” in social media culture, and only circulate on there with family and peers using everyday idioms and emoji/abbreviation; if they use social media at all,
2. how many different, disjoint online cultures there are. Many things widely circulated on reddit and adjacent communities may never surface on some FB mom’s group
People maintain much more different lives from each other than you seem to assume, even among those that who are “terminally online” or that “hang out on social media”
1. how many people don’t “hang out” in social media culture, and only circulate on there with family and peers using everyday idioms and emoji/abbreviation; if they use social media at all,
2. how many different, disjoint online cultures there are. Many things widely circulated on reddit and adjacent communities may never surface on some FB mom’s group
People maintain much more different lives from each other than you seem to assume, even among those that who are “terminally online” or that “hang out on social media”
It's pretty safe to assume that almost all of genz and gen alpha has come across the "F" meme at least once. Can't say about older folk.
I was just pointing out that knowledge of the meme wasn't as obscure as having actually played the game, which would be a much more limited audience than even just reddit users.
>Wow, okay, and they claimed it's not an obscure reference, but you have to have played a certain level in a certain game AND been on a certain forum to know what it means?
You just had to have played that game, and the game isn't obscure. Call of Duty is one of the largest franchises on earth and I would consider it akin to something like a Marvel movie in popularity. If someone referenced a meme from a marvel movie, I wouldn't describe it as obscure.
You just had to have played that game, and the game isn't obscure. Call of Duty is one of the largest franchises on earth and I would consider it akin to something like a Marvel movie in popularity. If someone referenced a meme from a marvel movie, I wouldn't describe it as obscure.
I've played a Call of Duty game and watched several Marvel movies, and no one is claiming either is obscure. What I am saying is that just because you hang out in forums where this is a common phrase does not mean it has exposure to the wider world. It is unknown to 99% of the world, by definition obscure.
As with most idioms, most of the people who reference it have no clue what the origin of the expression is. Knowing the etymology of something is not a requirement for understanding what it means.
I would argue that there is a 100:1 ratio of people who know know what the reference means vs. having actually played the game. Maybe even closer to 1,000:1. Kinda like how lots of people know the “World Series” is a baseball tournament, but most people have never watched it.
"Break the ice" was coined by Shakespeare, but the vast majority of people who use the phrase probably didn't read that play.
I'm sure there are plenty of people who have used the "press F" meme without knowing the original context too.
I'm sure there are plenty of people who have used the "press F" meme without knowing the original context too.
My regular friend group who uses that phrase have all read the play, some even who have performed it. I'm sure I'm not alone, but then again, I have the intuition to find people with similar life experiences and religion.
I've never played that game, but the F in the chat thing is popular on twitch. No wonder, since it's a huge (nonsensical) chat platform.
i'd still consider it cringe bc it's an outdated meme that suggests somebody is probably a reddit user.
Where I am, the F meme has pretty much become part of regular conversation, just like "lol". Granted, I exist in urbanized techie gen z spaces so ymmv.
idk my bff jill? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nIUcRJX9-o
That’s true for many words, but also sometimes you meet someone who talks like Reddit comments or in memes and it comes across really strange to me. It doesn’t sound like how people generally talk to each other in real life otherwise, at least in my experience.
I believe that thwe strangeness there comes in the syntax and conversation flow - or lack thereof. I've met people who speak with the cadence of a comment section in real life, if that makes sense.
In short - I think it's not what's said, as much as how it's said.
In short - I think it's not what's said, as much as how it's said.
Not only gone, I’ve heard internet and/or local imageboard slang from people who surely never visited the source of it. It feels strange to conceal your own subculture from those who speak it freely.
I disagree, the difference is still there. It’s gotten a bit smaller, but it’s still there. Some people who are perpetually online on forums will say things like “that’s based” in real life, but out of a diverse group of 100 people how many do you think would understand and say things like that? I’d wager a lot of people may have heard before but probably don’t understand what it means. There’s also lots of localized real life slang that people on forums won’t get. You still might hear it on Instagram or places like that, but there is no ubiquity there. I don’t think it’s changed significantly beyond exposure with more people being on TikTok/Instagram/YouTube and similar networks.
I know someone who laughs by saying LOL instead of actually laughing. So there is a difference between slang and internet slang.
yeah my 13 year old brother occasionally does that too
I heard someone loudly exclaim L O L at tech conference one time in real life and it just made me want to kick their ass. I had a low opinion of that person immediately.
Seems like they're not the most immature one in this situation.
What do you expect from a user who claims to be "fighting for my life in the comments almost daily" on HN? el-oh-el.
HN is the last bastion of free speech and intelligent conversation. Sorry to hear if you dislike people who want to defend that right adamantly, but myself and most other HNers who embrace the free speech, conservative model would politely, but firmly, show you the door.
> myself and most other HNers who embrace the free speech, conservative model would politely, but firmly, show you the door.
No one is entitled to 100% free speech protection on a moderated platform one joins by choice. If you're concerned about saying what you want without the risk of being banned, consider hosting your own forum where you have all the control. Only then you will be free.
No one is entitled to 100% free speech protection on a moderated platform one joins by choice. If you're concerned about saying what you want without the risk of being banned, consider hosting your own forum where you have all the control. Only then you will be free.
>I take slight issue with this one. To me, there is no difference between “internet slang” and just “slang”. The internet is ubiquitous and the language we use online and offline is largely the same now.
Some yes, otherwise you'd be surprised... In many circles and communities it's not the same at all - and even developments the 'social media'-inmates take for well known, are not a thing discussed at all...
It's like the "silent majority" of working programmers, who don't give a duck about HN, Rust, the latest trends in web and backend, and so on...
Some yes, otherwise you'd be surprised... In many circles and communities it's not the same at all - and even developments the 'social media'-inmates take for well known, are not a thing discussed at all...
It's like the "silent majority" of working programmers, who don't give a duck about HN, Rust, the latest trends in web and backend, and so on...
I live in a French speaking place and I wager vast majority knows these terms (am millennial) and a lot even use them here and there, in their English forms. Tho of course not all and there are "deeper" slangs that are more for people online enough to share some web culture.
IMO, Internet slang is accurate as it transcends geography while there is some locality to slangs and vernacular.
IMO, Internet slang is accurate as it transcends geography while there is some locality to slangs and vernacular.
I regularly say 'n00b' in real-life, and 'pwned', pronouncing the 'p'
Recently I was arrested and had all my electronics seized by the police.
The whole experience was a wake-up call, not just in terms of being arrested but being without a computer or any way to get online for a couple of weeks.
It really made me realize how 'addicted' I was to the internet, and going cold turkey was horrible, time slowed down and I was sure I was missing out on everything.
But I read so much more and all the days seemed longer (time dragged so much) and then when I finally got back online I hadn't missed sh*t.
The whole experience was a wake-up call, not just in terms of being arrested but being without a computer or any way to get online for a couple of weeks.
It really made me realize how 'addicted' I was to the internet, and going cold turkey was horrible, time slowed down and I was sure I was missing out on everything.
But I read so much more and all the days seemed longer (time dragged so much) and then when I finally got back online I hadn't missed sh*t.
Did they give it back to you? How do you get information about a lawyer without computer or mobile phone???
That actually sounds like heaven :)
> But I read so much more
You're reading all the time on the internet, it's literally the foundational enabling skill of it.
I find it very weird when people say the benefit of being offline is they "read more".
You're reading all the time on the internet, it's literally the foundational enabling skill of it.
I find it very weird when people say the benefit of being offline is they "read more".
Online reading is all sizzle and no steak. It’s akin to making a meal out of condiments: Each individual element is tasty but the overall meal leaves you dissatisfied.
In general I agree with you. As interesting as stuff on Twitter (I follow some very interesting people) and HN is, I use https://freedom.to to time-box my access. I don’t time-box my access at all for reading books.
That said, I have some low quality conversations with friends in real life also. However that is a different dynamic because conversation does not have to perfect and periods of silence while, for example, hiking with friends is also good.
I don’t want to go off on a rant here, but our civilization is changing: more automation, less work required from a large fraction of the population. We need to get “being a human” in this new world right. Going on a Cal Newport style digital diet is just a part of a strategy for life.
That said, I have some low quality conversations with friends in real life also. However that is a different dynamic because conversation does not have to perfect and periods of silence while, for example, hiking with friends is also good.
I don’t want to go off on a rant here, but our civilization is changing: more automation, less work required from a large fraction of the population. We need to get “being a human” in this new world right. Going on a Cal Newport style digital diet is just a part of a strategy for life.
Don’t tell Project Gutenberg, or Wikimedia, or Codecademy.
(Your assessment is an unfair and inaccurate overgeneralization. One can use the internet to read books, blogs, articles, courses, etc, but of course you know this.)
(Your assessment is an unfair and inaccurate overgeneralization. One can use the internet to read books, blogs, articles, courses, etc, but of course you know this.)
I really think much Internet content is more like cheap magazines/newspapers - small articles that can be read in under 5 minutes, ads and distractions peppered everywhere, and comment sections that are often large collections of short text. Social media is that experience on a higher scale.
The experience is not the same as sitting down and reading a 300 page book cover to cover which is also the product of an author sitting down and spending months or even years writing it. Of course that experience is definitely possible on the Internet - ebooks/PDF. But someone "reading" social media is not the same as really reading.
The experience is not the same as sitting down and reading a 300 page book cover to cover which is also the product of an author sitting down and spending months or even years writing it. Of course that experience is definitely possible on the Internet - ebooks/PDF. But someone "reading" social media is not the same as really reading.
The "more" is implying something of substance.
Reading online doesn't feel like reading. Most offline material is long form and has a clear purpose, otherwise it wouldn't continue existing. When you read it you are more likely to come away fulfilled, with new thoughts and ideas to process. You can't usually say the same coming away from most social network type interactions on the internet - You might have satiated your FOMO temporarily, but otherwise will likely feel empty. Obviously it's not all like that, there exists long form content on the web, but that's not really what we are talking about.
Reading online doesn't feel like reading. Most offline material is long form and has a clear purpose, otherwise it wouldn't continue existing. When you read it you are more likely to come away fulfilled, with new thoughts and ideas to process. You can't usually say the same coming away from most social network type interactions on the internet - You might have satiated your FOMO temporarily, but otherwise will likely feel empty. Obviously it's not all like that, there exists long form content on the web, but that's not really what we are talking about.
I hate to throw a purely negative comment up as a naked response to a post, but this is really just a contemptful screed about people engaging in online interactions the author doesn't jibe with. It's not even like they're presenting their opinion to elicit other perspectives-- it's presented as an objective list of unhealthy habits and patronizing instructions to align your behavior with the author's values and priorities. Not sure if the author intended this to be publicly consumed in this form but I'll skip their other blog entries.
What does 'objective' even mean in this context? This is a post about what the author believes is healthy and positive for individuals and society.
I don't see anywhere where contempt is shown, in fact quite the opposite. The post is written in a very empathetic way in my opinion, and I think displays a good level of insight into, and understanding of, the attractiveness of things that can do harm.
I'd challenge you to entertain the idea that this post has some good advice, and follow some of it. I have no data, but I expect you'll be happier as a result.
I don't see anywhere where contempt is shown, in fact quite the opposite. The post is written in a very empathetic way in my opinion, and I think displays a good level of insight into, and understanding of, the attractiveness of things that can do harm.
I'd challenge you to entertain the idea that this post has some good advice, and follow some of it. I have no data, but I expect you'll be happier as a result.
If you don't see contempt in the author's evaluation of other people's behavior, you're either not looking, or not a great judge of it.
> I'd challenge you to entertain the idea that this post has some good advice, and follow some of it. I have no data, but I expect you'll be happier as a result.
Personally, I don't fit any of the implied criteria for "terminal onlineness," so your challenge isn't possible. You don't merely lack data, you lack a valid reason for assuming this advice applies to me or any other person whose habits you know nothing about. I recommend you entertain the idea that neither righteousness in your conviction nor confidence in your words transform your assumptions and personal experiences into broadly applicable maxims.
Even if this advice addresses problems you, personally, struggle with, that's not necessarily true for everybody. I know brilliant, happy, well-adjusted people, like my wife, who engage in behavior this author deems undesirable. It's just not that cut and dried. Perhaps the author's conclusions suffer from sampling bias? Regardless, I will still skip the rest of their blog entries.
> I'd challenge you to entertain the idea that this post has some good advice, and follow some of it. I have no data, but I expect you'll be happier as a result.
Personally, I don't fit any of the implied criteria for "terminal onlineness," so your challenge isn't possible. You don't merely lack data, you lack a valid reason for assuming this advice applies to me or any other person whose habits you know nothing about. I recommend you entertain the idea that neither righteousness in your conviction nor confidence in your words transform your assumptions and personal experiences into broadly applicable maxims.
Even if this advice addresses problems you, personally, struggle with, that's not necessarily true for everybody. I know brilliant, happy, well-adjusted people, like my wife, who engage in behavior this author deems undesirable. It's just not that cut and dried. Perhaps the author's conclusions suffer from sampling bias? Regardless, I will still skip the rest of their blog entries.
I think where you can see contempt, is in the characterization that the internet breeds a certain sense of humour and that it's an objectively bad one. Irony is not unique to the internet, nor is self-deprecating humour, or cynical humour, or are slang words. Usually when you hear an internet-slang used in real life it's a reference, not an earnest attempt to use the word legitimately. Like when people reference TV shows or movies, you've have to have seen it to enjoy the reference. If using it works for your in-group then that's great, you all understand eachother.
For me in this context "presented as objective" means using the authorial voice of an expert. I agree it's a bad fit for me here, because it sweeps a lot under the rug.
In contrast, I'd be interested in reading something on the same topic that was presented in a subjective way, where the author isn't hiding their personal relationship to the topic. For example, "I was terminally online and here's why and how I changed". Or "my friend was terminally online and I like that they stopped". Or even "here's why I am frustrated dealing with terminally online people".
But for me, the pseudo-expert advice from somebody with no obvious expertise and no claim of it leaves me cold. I don't understand why I should care what they think, or why I should trust them.
In contrast, I'd be interested in reading something on the same topic that was presented in a subjective way, where the author isn't hiding their personal relationship to the topic. For example, "I was terminally online and here's why and how I changed". Or "my friend was terminally online and I like that they stopped". Or even "here's why I am frustrated dealing with terminally online people".
But for me, the pseudo-expert advice from somebody with no obvious expertise and no claim of it leaves me cold. I don't understand why I should care what they think, or why I should trust them.
This is the problem with framing the problem of online harms as an aspect of individual morality. Blaming the victim isn't helpful, nor is excusing the victim on the grounds that the activities aren't immoral.
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It's a good guide but it only addresses fairly vacuous and not that great online activities.
My Twitter feed is a collection of funniest, most deranged takes on any subject. People IRL have no chance to compete, no one can outdo the best two seconds of 800 people.
Same with HN. Conversations like these are rarely happening offline.
And then there are communities I sunk into. Private forums I have been a member of for nearly a decade. I know the in-jokes, we follow the stories of more interesting (chaotic) posters, there's even some real emotional investment.
All of that reachable fully asynchronously. Went to the gym alone? Read between the sets. Waiting for something? It's right there on your phone. Sadly, also, someone being boring... well, better stuff is in your pocket.
My Twitter feed is a collection of funniest, most deranged takes on any subject. People IRL have no chance to compete, no one can outdo the best two seconds of 800 people.
Same with HN. Conversations like these are rarely happening offline.
And then there are communities I sunk into. Private forums I have been a member of for nearly a decade. I know the in-jokes, we follow the stories of more interesting (chaotic) posters, there's even some real emotional investment.
All of that reachable fully asynchronously. Went to the gym alone? Read between the sets. Waiting for something? It's right there on your phone. Sadly, also, someone being boring... well, better stuff is in your pocket.
If you like that, then can I interest you in some crack, it's amazing compared to sobriety. Whenever I have to engage with people, all I am ever thinking is, "this is rubbish, I have some crack in my pocket, what am I doing here?" How can people be expected to compare with crack? It's ridiculous :)
> Same with HN. Conversations like these are rarely happening offline.
May I suggest that you might be looking in the wrong places offline?
HN-style discussions are a staple of lunchtime banter at any number of tech firms. Likewise you can find similar discussions at any number of universities, or on the tech conference circuit. Not to mention your local nerd-leaning special-interest communities (be it tabletop, D&D, hacker space, BDSM, etc).
The internet makes it really easy to find a community of folks who share similar interests, all without leaving your house. But unless you live in the middle of nowhere, one can generally find such a community IRL
May I suggest that you might be looking in the wrong places offline?
HN-style discussions are a staple of lunchtime banter at any number of tech firms. Likewise you can find similar discussions at any number of universities, or on the tech conference circuit. Not to mention your local nerd-leaning special-interest communities (be it tabletop, D&D, hacker space, BDSM, etc).
The internet makes it really easy to find a community of folks who share similar interests, all without leaving your house. But unless you live in the middle of nowhere, one can generally find such a community IRL
The lunchtime banter at my (tech) company is mostly silence since few people come to the office.
Have you tried an amateur radio meetup?
"Lunchtime banter"? You mean ya'll don't use lunch as the daily progress reports meeting? So inefficient!
The place that did that was a bad work environment; shockingly enough the "working" lunches weren't the worst habit they had either.
The place that did that was a bad work environment; shockingly enough the "working" lunches weren't the worst habit they had either.
Whether my online activities are less vacuous or not, by the numbers I spend an inordinate amount of time on the computer or other device. Granted mostly for work, but even after I get through evening chores, I tend to want to go straight back.
I think one mistake of perspective we have, when terminally-online and evaluating the alternative, is looking for other sources of passive constant stimulation as a substitute for social media feeds. Not bombarding your senses is part of the point. Daydreaming and thinking doesn't have to be boring, even just enjoying a moment of quiet.
Saying that, I think most people lack social validation in everyday life and try to satisfy it virtually. Having interesting conversation is separate from that, but also a consideration. We seem to be disappointed by our offline social lives but don't do a whole lot to rectify. That would require change (scary) and effort.
I think one mistake of perspective we have, when terminally-online and evaluating the alternative, is looking for other sources of passive constant stimulation as a substitute for social media feeds. Not bombarding your senses is part of the point. Daydreaming and thinking doesn't have to be boring, even just enjoying a moment of quiet.
Saying that, I think most people lack social validation in everyday life and try to satisfy it virtually. Having interesting conversation is separate from that, but also a consideration. We seem to be disappointed by our offline social lives but don't do a whole lot to rectify. That would require change (scary) and effort.
> There is an insurmountable asymmetry that degrades any local event or exchange. Because of the infinity of content accessible 24/7, there will always be something online more informative, surprising, funny, diverting, impressive than anything in one’s immediate circumstances.
- 24/7: Late Capitalism and the Ends of Sleep" by Jonathan Crary
- 24/7: Late Capitalism and the Ends of Sleep" by Jonathan Crary
I'm struggling with it. I have a website blocker on my Mac, but then I just turn it off eventually and go back to old habits, if I block hacker news, reddit etc, then I end up just having random thoughts and googling those and finding other sites to read through and of course sometimes reddit can have the answer for the thing i needed to google, so that can be annoying.
I changed to a white list to try and solve this problem, but then I just keep finding little bits of websites i need access to, to do what I want, the minute I disable something or find a solution, I just get around it somehow or need to turn it off and end up at square one.
I feel I tap into the " what is your life philosophy? what do you believe in? do the communities you browse online reflect this in some way? did you learn about these from people online?" this quite a lot.
The internet for me, is not about watching cute cat videos, but trying to learn more about life, philosophy, how to be a better human, productivity porn etc, maybe it's a big insecurity of mine, but I think about this stuff all the time and the internet is a unending resource for all this stuff, I figure that a great resource in solving and thinking about all these things, must be other people and there own thoughts and experiences that I can learn from and then integrate with my own thinking and the internet gives me unending access to that, or at least in theory it does.
So i'm reading through Hacking News, Reddit, blogs, watching youtube videos, podcasts etc, hoping to find those things and then I end up with a bunch of notes and documents etc, but it all kinda becomes overwhelming anyway, either from the content I am currently consuming or even all the thoughts and ideas I wrote down previous because I thought they where somehow useful.
I honestly don't know what to do about this anymore. I'm trying to figure out a system for living more simply and internet consumption is part of it, but also there is the bigger issue that i mentioned which I think is the primary driver of that internet consumption.
I changed to a white list to try and solve this problem, but then I just keep finding little bits of websites i need access to, to do what I want, the minute I disable something or find a solution, I just get around it somehow or need to turn it off and end up at square one.
I feel I tap into the " what is your life philosophy? what do you believe in? do the communities you browse online reflect this in some way? did you learn about these from people online?" this quite a lot.
The internet for me, is not about watching cute cat videos, but trying to learn more about life, philosophy, how to be a better human, productivity porn etc, maybe it's a big insecurity of mine, but I think about this stuff all the time and the internet is a unending resource for all this stuff, I figure that a great resource in solving and thinking about all these things, must be other people and there own thoughts and experiences that I can learn from and then integrate with my own thinking and the internet gives me unending access to that, or at least in theory it does.
So i'm reading through Hacking News, Reddit, blogs, watching youtube videos, podcasts etc, hoping to find those things and then I end up with a bunch of notes and documents etc, but it all kinda becomes overwhelming anyway, either from the content I am currently consuming or even all the thoughts and ideas I wrote down previous because I thought they where somehow useful.
I honestly don't know what to do about this anymore. I'm trying to figure out a system for living more simply and internet consumption is part of it, but also there is the bigger issue that i mentioned which I think is the primary driver of that internet consumption.
I think most people struggle with this if they recognize this as a problem. I use https://freedom.to to set up times of day when I can access social media. And yes, sometimes I shut this down when I want to cheat.
For me the best life hack to avoid wasting even more time is to rely on my Apple Watch to get phone calls and text messages, and leave my iPhone at home. This is sort of like using an old flip-phone because it takes accessing social media off the table.
For me the best life hack to avoid wasting even more time is to rely on my Apple Watch to get phone calls and text messages, and leave my iPhone at home. This is sort of like using an old flip-phone because it takes accessing social media off the table.
That's good that you found something that works for you.
My phone isn't actually the big distraction point for me, I don't have social media apps and barely use it, it's more my iMac and sometimes my iPad too.
I guess I need to find something that works for me, i'm yet to figure that out yet though.
My phone isn't actually the big distraction point for me, I don't have social media apps and barely use it, it's more my iMac and sometimes my iPad too.
I guess I need to find something that works for me, i'm yet to figure that out yet though.
People have had this problem figured out for a very long time and I guess there’s just been too much else going on on the internet so it’s been lost.
You’re the only really technical person in the house, you’re the only one who can block you from doing things you know are bad for you, so you set up the software to do it, and then you have your spouse or a really good friend change the password. Now you can’t get back in without talking to them first.
You’re the only really technical person in the house, you’re the only one who can block you from doing things you know are bad for you, so you set up the software to do it, and then you have your spouse or a really good friend change the password. Now you can’t get back in without talking to them first.
> trying to learn more about life, philosophy, how to be a better human, productivity porn etc
IMO The internet is not usually a good way to learn this stuff. These are big life concepts that require deep focus and patience. The internet rewards the opposite of that.
The Big Concepts require both study and application. If you’re mostly spending time in the study phase, it’s not working.
IMO The internet is not usually a good way to learn this stuff. These are big life concepts that require deep focus and patience. The internet rewards the opposite of that.
The Big Concepts require both study and application. If you’re mostly spending time in the study phase, it’s not working.
You might be right, where is good though?
I'm starting to just give up on it to be honest and consider more just trying to avoid this kind of information and figure out what works for me myself, my ultimate thought is to replace information consumption of this kinda thing with just more deep reflection and a bigger trial and error process.
I mean who are the people producing this content that I think will help me anyway? There just people, so I feel like I can figure it out myself maybe.
Even when cleaning i'm listening to these kinda podcasts etc, i don't know how much I get from it, I think I almost get more value from not listening to anything, as it allows my own thoughts to process.
I don't know. I feel kinda stuck with it all and this generally leads to two things, 1) Trying to find / consume more information 2) Overthinking that leads me to feeling more stuck and back to 1, i'm not sure quite what to do / where to turn, but maybe that is the issue, the whole 'where to turn' thought, is that same idea, wanting to figure out what information source will somehow make things different.
I'm starting to just give up on it to be honest and consider more just trying to avoid this kind of information and figure out what works for me myself, my ultimate thought is to replace information consumption of this kinda thing with just more deep reflection and a bigger trial and error process.
I mean who are the people producing this content that I think will help me anyway? There just people, so I feel like I can figure it out myself maybe.
Even when cleaning i'm listening to these kinda podcasts etc, i don't know how much I get from it, I think I almost get more value from not listening to anything, as it allows my own thoughts to process.
I don't know. I feel kinda stuck with it all and this generally leads to two things, 1) Trying to find / consume more information 2) Overthinking that leads me to feeling more stuck and back to 1, i'm not sure quite what to do / where to turn, but maybe that is the issue, the whole 'where to turn' thought, is that same idea, wanting to figure out what information source will somehow make things different.
Maybe the root cause is that your desire to "be better" or attain a goal is too strong. It sounds like you're aware of some of this already.
I know that for me, I once tried to optimizing just about everything in my life. That led me to try to learn how to do everything better and better. At one point I realized that I was overthinking and optimizing everything, even which path I would take to walk to the bus to save some time. The stress of attaining perfection just got to be too much, so I just worked on letting go of trying to improve everything.
So, maybe work on just being okay with things how they are and not striving too much to be even better. A lot of this requires being aware of your thoughts and moods so you can change in the moment. I've found meditation helps a lot there.
I know that for me, I once tried to optimizing just about everything in my life. That led me to try to learn how to do everything better and better. At one point I realized that I was overthinking and optimizing everything, even which path I would take to walk to the bus to save some time. The stress of attaining perfection just got to be too much, so I just worked on letting go of trying to improve everything.
So, maybe work on just being okay with things how they are and not striving too much to be even better. A lot of this requires being aware of your thoughts and moods so you can change in the moment. I've found meditation helps a lot there.
It’s hard to name good sources when we’re talking in generalities. But whatever topic your interested in, there are likely many experts on the subject that have published books or other long form content. That’s a great starting point, then I think you need to figure out what works for you through experience and trial and error
I use SelfControl App for Mac which adds the sites to your host file for a certain amount of hours. I find it to be very helpful now. Its also annoying to override it so while I could easily do it, usually it makes me delay until the "craving" passes.
Yeah, it's a good app that I have used in the past, the issue being I don't know how long I need to block everything for and I might need some of those websites randomly when I end up needing some info and the answer is on reddit etc.
Also lack of scheduling, so every time I have to click to start, I often lose so much time in the morning just browsing before I get to work etc.
Also lack of scheduling, so every time I have to click to start, I often lose so much time in the morning just browsing before I get to work etc.
Yup, its a nice Sunday during the Summer time and I'm here on HN.
Honestly, I'm an information addict. I'm online far too much mainly reading news etc.
I think I've forgotten how I lived without a constant stream of information. I'm seriously tempted to get a dumb phone to remove temptation to browse when I have a few minutes to spare.
The stupid thing is for all my reading, I don't feel any wiser or even knowledgeable. At the same time I think I'm less able to engage in normal conversation.
I think I've forgotten how I lived without a constant stream of information. I'm seriously tempted to get a dumb phone to remove temptation to browse when I have a few minutes to spare.
The stupid thing is for all my reading, I don't feel any wiser or even knowledgeable. At the same time I think I'm less able to engage in normal conversation.
I have a few rules and habits that helped me kick. They might help you?
Never to walk down the street looking at my phone. Eyes on the road. If I need to look at my phone, I stop somewhere out of the way of foot traffic.
All notifications are silent except calls or text messages from specific people. Calls from people I don't know and text messages get only a slow blinking light. Social media get no notifications.
When I am with someone or a group in person, phone goes away.
If I wouldn't allow someone to interrupt a conversation, the phone doesn't either. I won't answer it if someone is talking to me, especially something important. When there's a pause in the conversation, I'll ask politely to check to see who called.
Finally, and this might be the biggest, I am constantly listening to audiobooks and podcasts. It scratches that itch of needing constant stimulation, but I can still be aware of everything around me.
Never to walk down the street looking at my phone. Eyes on the road. If I need to look at my phone, I stop somewhere out of the way of foot traffic.
All notifications are silent except calls or text messages from specific people. Calls from people I don't know and text messages get only a slow blinking light. Social media get no notifications.
When I am with someone or a group in person, phone goes away.
If I wouldn't allow someone to interrupt a conversation, the phone doesn't either. I won't answer it if someone is talking to me, especially something important. When there's a pause in the conversation, I'll ask politely to check to see who called.
Finally, and this might be the biggest, I am constantly listening to audiobooks and podcasts. It scratches that itch of needing constant stimulation, but I can still be aware of everything around me.
Do you listen to audiobooks and podcasts while working? I code for work and I actually find myself increasingly doing this. Sometimes when I really have to focus I stop it but ultimately, it doesn't feel so bad.
I do too, but if I have to learn something new or step through complex logic, then I have to pause.
I was like you few months ago. When summer started I decided to stop reading news from online. It was hard at first but quite fast I started seeing the benefits. More focus, more happiness, not being so worried all the time. Now I only read HN (way too often of course :)) and I ordered a newspaper to my home which is published 3 times a week. I get distilled look on whats going on in the world but it’s not eating my focus.
I tried to do this as well... bought a year subscription to the local paper. Unfortunately I live semi-rural and it is written so egregiously its only worth is feeding the firebox each week.
If it makes you feel any better, I did the same thing, but I live semi-urban, and it was similarly egregious.
I don’t have a firebox, but I suppose it kept the recycling man in business.
I don’t have a firebox, but I suppose it kept the recycling man in business.
Instead, try cutting the triggers with an ad blocker and a few changes to your settings.
I hide recommended content, unsubscribe from everything, unfollow everything, and generally have a "don't call me, I'll call you" approach to information.
I went as far as removing pagination buttons on websites I tend to browse too much.
I also use Pocket to save more interesting articles. Combined with a "things I don't understand" to-do list, I spend more time reading about practical things instead of just browsing. I don't regret that sort of reading.
I hide recommended content, unsubscribe from everything, unfollow everything, and generally have a "don't call me, I'll call you" approach to information.
I went as far as removing pagination buttons on websites I tend to browse too much.
I also use Pocket to save more interesting articles. Combined with a "things I don't understand" to-do list, I spend more time reading about practical things instead of just browsing. I don't regret that sort of reading.
You realize a problem so you are on a good path. Two things that help me: prefer not carrying an iPhone and rely on my Apple Watch. Also, instead of spending over an hour a day on YouTube watching alternative news commentaries from people like Matt Taibbi, etc. I try to cut down on that substituting YouTube channels on philosophy, Thai Chi exercises, etc.
Also, having a library card at your local library gets you books to read, both physical books and eBooks through the Libby book reading app.
Anyway, congratulations on recognizing the problem: you are ahead of the game compared to most of my friends in real life and family.
Also, having a library card at your local library gets you books to read, both physical books and eBooks through the Libby book reading app.
Anyway, congratulations on recognizing the problem: you are ahead of the game compared to most of my friends in real life and family.
Same symptoms as you and was also on the Nokia website a few days back looking at dumb phones. Others also mentioned the Apple watch also was a good alternative.
> The stupid thing is for all my reading, I don't feel any wiser or even knowledgeable. At the same time I think I'm less able to engage in normal conversation.
100% if I spent all the time I spend online reading actual books, I'd be much better off.
> The stupid thing is for all my reading, I don't feel any wiser or even knowledgeable. At the same time I think I'm less able to engage in normal conversation.
100% if I spent all the time I spend online reading actual books, I'd be much better off.
>"I think I've forgotten how I lived without a constant stream of information. I'm seriously tempted to get a dumb phone to remove temptation to browse when I have a few minutes to spare."
Up until few month ago my phone did not even have data plan. I ordered it now but purely for business needs. I use my phone strictly for phone calls and as GPS (I have offline maps). I use another phone to control gizmos like drone. For everything else I use PC and since I spend enough time doing various physical activities I consider my life balanced.
Up until few month ago my phone did not even have data plan. I ordered it now but purely for business needs. I use my phone strictly for phone calls and as GPS (I have offline maps). I use another phone to control gizmos like drone. For everything else I use PC and since I spend enough time doing various physical activities I consider my life balanced.
Something that really helped me was a smartwatch. I picked up an Apple Watch (cellular) a few weeks ago so I didn't have to carry my phone around, and subsequently, would not be tempted to mindlessly use it. I think the experiment has been pretty successful. For the most part my phone stays on the charger all day, and I don't feel like I am missing out on calls or texts since they come to my watch. Being able to leave the house without a phone is a particularly freeing experience.
> find a hobby // i don't mean this derisively, i promise. if you use social media to kill time, try putting that time into something else - maybe something you've always wanted to do. always wanted to cook? look up a recipe and start.
I believe the author (and many other people giving this advice) are naive to the difference between “free time with mental energy to burn” — where a hobby is definitely the right answer — and “free time where you’ve already used all your mental energy for the day.”
50 years ago, someone who was mentally drained by evening-time would be “vegetating in front of the TV.” Today they’re “doomscrolling.” In both cases it’s not that they’re addicted to a certain behavior, but rather that this behavior is one of the only pastimes available to them in their current environmental context that can be executed when fully cognitively fatigued, and yet not tired enough to sleep.
I say “in their current environmental context” because living in certain places (e.g. most cities, suburbs) limits your options. In more rural areas, you can just go out for a long walk in nature, or spontaneously go fishing. In communities that are safe, walkable, and socially well-connected, you can go to a {cafe, park, mall, bar, community centre, church, …} and run into friends rather than strangers, and just hang out shooting the breeze until you get tired. But many people alive today are in environments where they have none of those options. They have to come up with a braindead pastime that can be done both alone and indoors. We didn’t evolve to do well in this situation! Anything you pick is going to end up not being very good for you!
(Before anyone suggests “reading” — you’re underestimating the level of cognitive fatigue many people reach. If you have enough mental energy at the end of the day to concentrate on reading a good book and getting the full effect of it — as opposed to having a good book just slide past you, or reading “junk food” op-ed blogposts — that’s great for you, but that amount of mental energy would also be sufficient to cook or practice an instrument. Reading — the kind that actually enriches your mind — is a hobby, not a pastime!)
I believe the author (and many other people giving this advice) are naive to the difference between “free time with mental energy to burn” — where a hobby is definitely the right answer — and “free time where you’ve already used all your mental energy for the day.”
50 years ago, someone who was mentally drained by evening-time would be “vegetating in front of the TV.” Today they’re “doomscrolling.” In both cases it’s not that they’re addicted to a certain behavior, but rather that this behavior is one of the only pastimes available to them in their current environmental context that can be executed when fully cognitively fatigued, and yet not tired enough to sleep.
I say “in their current environmental context” because living in certain places (e.g. most cities, suburbs) limits your options. In more rural areas, you can just go out for a long walk in nature, or spontaneously go fishing. In communities that are safe, walkable, and socially well-connected, you can go to a {cafe, park, mall, bar, community centre, church, …} and run into friends rather than strangers, and just hang out shooting the breeze until you get tired. But many people alive today are in environments where they have none of those options. They have to come up with a braindead pastime that can be done both alone and indoors. We didn’t evolve to do well in this situation! Anything you pick is going to end up not being very good for you!
(Before anyone suggests “reading” — you’re underestimating the level of cognitive fatigue many people reach. If you have enough mental energy at the end of the day to concentrate on reading a good book and getting the full effect of it — as opposed to having a good book just slide past you, or reading “junk food” op-ed blogposts — that’s great for you, but that amount of mental energy would also be sufficient to cook or practice an instrument. Reading — the kind that actually enriches your mind — is a hobby, not a pastime!)
I find when I’m really exhausted, I stay up late looking at my phone and it feeds the cycle. If I read a book in bed I get relaxed, fall asleep, and feel rested. Looking at the phone could be the same as TV 50 years ago for some people but I’ve never fallen asleep looking at my phone and I often fall asleep watching TV.
I’ve come to the conclusion the best thing to do when I’m tired is get off the phone and go to sleep. Sometimes I don’t realize how tired I am until I realize I’m spending more and more time on the phone. A sleep tracker was really helpful for identifying this but I don’t have one anymore.
I’ve come to the conclusion the best thing to do when I’m tired is get off the phone and go to sleep. Sometimes I don’t realize how tired I am until I realize I’m spending more and more time on the phone. A sleep tracker was really helpful for identifying this but I don’t have one anymore.
I think the internet has accelerated the evolution of "mind viruses". New arguments and rhetorical tricks arise and mutate very fast. If you jump off it, that'll be good for you, but when you get back on after a long time, you might have no "immune defense" against what the internet came up with in the meantime. Similar to how the USSR was outside Western cultural evolution for awhile, and when it broke up in the 90s, people turned out very vulnerable to colorful ads, bubblegum and Ponzi schemes.
Maybe the fear of such "falling off the wagon" is part of what keeps us on the internet. We don't want to lose the world's thread of conversation, because in the end one way or another it will affect us anyway. It's like not coming to the forum where future laws are decided.
Maybe the fear of such "falling off the wagon" is part of what keeps us on the internet. We don't want to lose the world's thread of conversation, because in the end one way or another it will affect us anyway. It's like not coming to the forum where future laws are decided.
I don't know if you're aware of this, but this "mind virus" is the original definition of the word "meme" (before it got adopted to mean a particular kind of image-based online joke). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
Besides that, I agree completely. Twitter is a sort of highly competitive petri dish in which only the most infectious viruses can survive, with "viruses" being 160 character pieces of text. These messages do not need to be true or actually informative to survive and spread.
Besides that, I agree completely. Twitter is a sort of highly competitive petri dish in which only the most infectious viruses can survive, with "viruses" being 160 character pieces of text. These messages do not need to be true or actually informative to survive and spread.
Hmm, this isn't really a "howto" post. It's the authors' disdain and insecurities masquerading as one.
Health and online activity are inextricably linked at this point.
Mental health. Cardiovascular health. Health of interpersonal relationships. Work life balance.
I sincerely think we are at an equivalent situation as the tobacco industry in the 1970s. The decisions we make now will affect the lives of generations to come.
Cal Newport's site has a Ledger of Harms [1] at the Center for Humane Technology, and I wrote what I hope is an accessible and lightly challenging overview of the problem of technology overuse in Digital Vegan [2].
[1] https://ledger.humanetech.com/?ref=witsio
[2] https://digitalvegan.net
Mental health. Cardiovascular health. Health of interpersonal relationships. Work life balance.
I sincerely think we are at an equivalent situation as the tobacco industry in the 1970s. The decisions we make now will affect the lives of generations to come.
Cal Newport's site has a Ledger of Harms [1] at the Center for Humane Technology, and I wrote what I hope is an accessible and lightly challenging overview of the problem of technology overuse in Digital Vegan [2].
[1] https://ledger.humanetech.com/?ref=witsio
[2] https://digitalvegan.net
I got part way through Digital Vegan, but admittedly haven’t finished it yet.
It’s been a few weeks since I had to put it down for another book, but here is my main takeaway (so far) - it’s all true, but in my opinion it comes across with very strong views and some extreme options as something to hand non-technical friends. It’s also relatively expensive to obtain in the US.
But thank you for your contribution to the discussion on this topic. I think you’re probably closer to where we should end up, but I don’t see a path to get there.
It’s been a few weeks since I had to put it down for another book, but here is my main takeaway (so far) - it’s all true, but in my opinion it comes across with very strong views and some extreme options as something to hand non-technical friends. It’s also relatively expensive to obtain in the US.
But thank you for your contribution to the discussion on this topic. I think you’re probably closer to where we should end up, but I don’t see a path to get there.
> Cal Newport's site has a Ledger of Harms [1] at the Center for Humane Technology
Sorry, I'm not following. Could you elaborate on the connection between Cal Newport and the site you linked to?
Sorry, I'm not following. Could you elaborate on the connection between Cal Newport and the site you linked to?
I may be mistaken but Center for Humane Technology which compiled the
"Ledger of harms" is an umbrella for critical thought on digital tech
whose members include folk like Roger McNamee, Cal Newport, Jonathan
Haidt, Max Stossel, Tristan Harris and others. Actually it would be
fairer to call it Harris' site (since he is the "president" of it)
Thanks!
I am listening to the audiobook "Stolen Focus" and it has some good points on internet addiction. Most importantly, it's useless to blame yourselves completely for the addictive behaviours. The tech industry is spending billions on experts to get you hooked. In a way, tech industry is like Purdue pharma. But the responsibility is still individual's.
The way I like to think about it is that lots of people or places might be responsible: society, big industry, governments failure to regulate, so on and so forth. Those are interesting academic, or political discussions if we're talking about collective political actions that we might take.
On the other hand, understanding that you are addicted, and why, are the first steps towards individuals feeling empowered to quit. Which, in many, if not almost all, cases - they absolutely are able to do. And it certainly improves their odds if they have a network of supportive friends, family, and the like.
For someone who isn't an addict, taking a non judgemental and understanding approach to get the addict to ask him or herself those questions or set themselves on the path to recovery may be a way to meaningfully help them. But it can only really work if they're already open and receptive to that. And that depends, to a great extent, on what your relationship is with them and how much they trust you.
On the other hand, understanding that you are addicted, and why, are the first steps towards individuals feeling empowered to quit. Which, in many, if not almost all, cases - they absolutely are able to do. And it certainly improves their odds if they have a network of supportive friends, family, and the like.
For someone who isn't an addict, taking a non judgemental and understanding approach to get the addict to ask him or herself those questions or set themselves on the path to recovery may be a way to meaningfully help them. But it can only really work if they're already open and receptive to that. And that depends, to a great extent, on what your relationship is with them and how much they trust you.
Who really cares - 100 years ago you might as well have moaned about people living through books. We have to live and learn 2nd hand because:
* Learning some things 1st hand has a high chance of being fatal
* We cannot afford to live all possible lives but we do have to be able to understand each other and each other's motives to be able to get along - this means we have to imagine what it's like to be someone else.
The internet is just the latest way to communicate and learn things from/about other people.
* Learning some things 1st hand has a high chance of being fatal
* We cannot afford to live all possible lives but we do have to be able to understand each other and each other's motives to be able to get along - this means we have to imagine what it's like to be someone else.
The internet is just the latest way to communicate and learn things from/about other people.
Eh, none of the bookworms I know ever had drastic changes in their personality consistent with anxiety or depression, or somehow became angry and bitter after binge-reading a 6 book fantasy series. It just isn't a thing that happens.
I also don't think the internet itself—we didn't see this problem with blogs/wikipedia/trashy chain emails from your uncle.
It's the feeds. Because everything is tuned for engagement, if there's a type of content that's going to mess with your head in particular, the algorithm will find it and hammer you with it.
I also don't think the internet itself—we didn't see this problem with blogs/wikipedia/trashy chain emails from your uncle.
It's the feeds. Because everything is tuned for engagement, if there's a type of content that's going to mess with your head in particular, the algorithm will find it and hammer you with it.
That might be a case of seeing it from the outside though. They are interacting with other people - the internet is only the conduit. It can be very negative to hang out with the wrong people whether it's physically or otherwise.
It's also possible that we're letting advertising algorithms push us around but one is not free from advertising in the unvirtual world either. There's a continual mental attack from every source that tells us we don't have "good enough" lives and must buy something or other to make them better.
It's also possible that we're letting advertising algorithms push us around but one is not free from advertising in the unvirtual world either. There's a continual mental attack from every source that tells us we don't have "good enough" lives and must buy something or other to make them better.
> somehow became angry and bitter after binge-reading a 6 book fantasy series. It just isn't a thing that happens.
Some people will read the whole series when a new book comes out, sometimes in a single session. If there's something they really don't like in the last book, they might be bitter and angry.
Some people will read the whole series when a new book comes out, sometimes in a single session. If there's something they really don't like in the last book, they might be bitter and angry.
A lot of people seem to care: everyone upvoting, commenting, and even you taking the time to comment.
Internet-enabled pocket computers are vastly different than silent, dark, large, heavy, un-update-able, one-way, single-topic (more-or-less) sources of entertainment/distraction.
Internet-enabled pocket computers are vastly different than silent, dark, large, heavy, un-update-able, one-way, single-topic (more-or-less) sources of entertainment/distraction.
I agree with you but consider the following.
There is gluttony and then, there is gluttony with junk foods.
Books and Wikipedia addiction isn't quite like one more fetch of the Instagram feed. Update my story. See such and such latest story.
Both are forms of escapes but one leads to a dangerous generation of waste.
There is gluttony and then, there is gluttony with junk foods.
Books and Wikipedia addiction isn't quite like one more fetch of the Instagram feed. Update my story. See such and such latest story.
Both are forms of escapes but one leads to a dangerous generation of waste.
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I have struggled with Internet addiction, and still do, for a long time, and so far the only thing that has helped to dramatically reduce usage time was the Firefox/Chrome extension News Feed Eradicator [1]. I didn't realize to what degree news feeds were attention black holes until I installed it. I still go often on social media, but thanks to this extension these visits now last a few seconds, to check messages and some specific people I check regularly. I highly recommend it.
[1] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/news-feed-era...
[1] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/news-feed-era...
So would you categorize it as "news" addiction rather than internet addiction? I put quotes around news because today's news isn't really news, just over dramatization of current events, IMO.
I select "not interested/don't recommend channel" on all "news" type stuff on YouTube, and it's a much better experience. I learn more about all kinda stuff that I'm interested in. It took a few weeks for it all to filter out, but YouTube has a bunch of interesting stuff that's not news/current events related.
I select "not interested/don't recommend channel" on all "news" type stuff on YouTube, and it's a much better experience. I learn more about all kinda stuff that I'm interested in. It took a few weeks for it all to filter out, but YouTube has a bunch of interesting stuff that's not news/current events related.
It's a balancing act and for me, Internet use is an addiction like gluttony. Forgive my lack of empathy, but addiction takes on a whole other quality when you're addicted to some necessity of life.
Food is, of course, a quintessential necessity, and someone who overeats or has an eating disorder needs to come to terms with temperance, moderation, and balance of lifestyle, rather than quit eating altogether.
15 years ago, it was realistic to hang up the modem, unplug the computer, get face out of screen, and get some fresh air for long stretches of time. But my reality today is that I use a device online to manage my household and do ordinary, everyday tasks, including working for my employer is 100% online. Implicit in this article is the fact that the Internet is no longer something to be avoided or removed from our lives; the article simply suggests that we can use it differently, improving our attitudes and our approach.
So rather than a "kick the habit" strategy, we typically need to devise time-management techniques and ways to form better habits around good, productive use of our devices, while balancing that with actual needs to unplug and take a walk in the fresh air.
That may mean that I don't obsessively check bank balances and twiddle my bill payments 3 times a day, 7 days a week. And it means that I'm not allowing every email and SMS to distract me from a task. And perhaps channels about home meal preparation and gentleman's grooming should be dominating my YouTube suggestions, above SNL and Avril Lavigne tracks.
I also need to cope with being triggered. If I have an anxiety attack or fit of rage over someone who's Wrong on the Internet, I am guaranteed to suffer insomnia and all the rest. And so we need the skillsets to short-circuit and defuse those situations, and sometimes the situation is avoidable and sometimes we need to find a way to push through it without losing our heads.
This blogger offers 15 pragmatic, common-sense strategies for coping. And it can get better. Do not believe that you can escape the Internet by avoiding it, nor can you escape real life by going online. Develop good hygiene, good habits, be productive, and learn to cope when things inevitably get difficult.
Food is, of course, a quintessential necessity, and someone who overeats or has an eating disorder needs to come to terms with temperance, moderation, and balance of lifestyle, rather than quit eating altogether.
15 years ago, it was realistic to hang up the modem, unplug the computer, get face out of screen, and get some fresh air for long stretches of time. But my reality today is that I use a device online to manage my household and do ordinary, everyday tasks, including working for my employer is 100% online. Implicit in this article is the fact that the Internet is no longer something to be avoided or removed from our lives; the article simply suggests that we can use it differently, improving our attitudes and our approach.
So rather than a "kick the habit" strategy, we typically need to devise time-management techniques and ways to form better habits around good, productive use of our devices, while balancing that with actual needs to unplug and take a walk in the fresh air.
That may mean that I don't obsessively check bank balances and twiddle my bill payments 3 times a day, 7 days a week. And it means that I'm not allowing every email and SMS to distract me from a task. And perhaps channels about home meal preparation and gentleman's grooming should be dominating my YouTube suggestions, above SNL and Avril Lavigne tracks.
I also need to cope with being triggered. If I have an anxiety attack or fit of rage over someone who's Wrong on the Internet, I am guaranteed to suffer insomnia and all the rest. And so we need the skillsets to short-circuit and defuse those situations, and sometimes the situation is avoidable and sometimes we need to find a way to push through it without losing our heads.
This blogger offers 15 pragmatic, common-sense strategies for coping. And it can get better. Do not believe that you can escape the Internet by avoiding it, nor can you escape real life by going online. Develop good hygiene, good habits, be productive, and learn to cope when things inevitably get difficult.
I try to write down what I'm about to use the internet for before I open the web browser. This way I can glance and see if I've gotten distracted and try to get back on task. This works wonders when trying to list something on FB Marketplace. In the past I would be three posts deep in my feed before snapping out of it and remembering why I opened FB in the first place. I can see why the feed was such a game changer for FB. Before you can use FB for anything you will be forced to glance at the feed :(
This could be an awesome extension. Something that asks you in a couple textboxes - what is your goal with this browser session/how much time do you think you need to accomplish it - and then keeps these items of info visible below the tab bar.
This article (and many similar articles often shared on HN) are written as if the target audience are adults. And maybe it is. But there are already plenty of articles about how we spend too much time online, and the effects of social media.
But why aren’t there more articles like this targeting teens, e.g. when — or before — the problem starts?
Language like this:
> irony, post-irony, meta-irony, and whatever-irony are the lingua franca of the terminally online.
makes it clear that this is not written with a general audience in mind.
Are there articles that cover really good points like this in a way that really sinks in for a younger audience, to help them understand the risks and how to recognize the problem before it becomes a deep rooted and/or normalized addiction?
As a parent of teens, it would be nice to find and share articles with them that are written in a way that really sinks in while not coming across as preachy/judgmental.
But why aren’t there more articles like this targeting teens, e.g. when — or before — the problem starts?
Language like this:
> irony, post-irony, meta-irony, and whatever-irony are the lingua franca of the terminally online.
makes it clear that this is not written with a general audience in mind.
Are there articles that cover really good points like this in a way that really sinks in for a younger audience, to help them understand the risks and how to recognize the problem before it becomes a deep rooted and/or normalized addiction?
As a parent of teens, it would be nice to find and share articles with them that are written in a way that really sinks in while not coming across as preachy/judgmental.
This is something I’ve been thinking about quite a bit. How to take these problems that a growing number of psychologists, psychiatrists and technologists understand to be problems, and repackaging that in a way that is palatable and effective for various audiences.
I think articles like the one here need to exist to get communities like this one talking about how to expand the conversation.
The trouble is, what is the right way to reach someone in their teens, at a time in their life when they’re probably far less worried about the “health” aspects of time online than they are about fitting in with their peers?
I’ve wondered if the only way is to embrace the social media platforms people find themselves consumed with - to subtly deliver/grow the message that they should unplug.
I’d say this conversation should start in schools, but am not optimistic that this would actually pan out.
I think articles like the one here need to exist to get communities like this one talking about how to expand the conversation.
The trouble is, what is the right way to reach someone in their teens, at a time in their life when they’re probably far less worried about the “health” aspects of time online than they are about fitting in with their peers?
I’ve wondered if the only way is to embrace the social media platforms people find themselves consumed with - to subtly deliver/grow the message that they should unplug.
I’d say this conversation should start in schools, but am not optimistic that this would actually pan out.
> if you find it hard to ditch tiktok, instagram, twitter, or some other similar site, going "cold turkey" will be even harder. try to gradually reduce your usage
YMMV but my trick for Facebook was a hard commit to "I'm going to take 2 weeks off". Cold Turkey with a boundary. I think I check it once for five minutes every month or two now.
HN is trickier because I don't have to login first to see it. When I start to think Im on it too much, I delete it from my password manager and don't supply an email. (Sorry, I know this is annoying to them what run this site)
Another useful thing is to generally keep a "don't respond to first level replies" policy. Keeps you in discussions but out of knee-jerk responses. Might seem rude but it keeps you sane.
YMMV but my trick for Facebook was a hard commit to "I'm going to take 2 weeks off". Cold Turkey with a boundary. I think I check it once for five minutes every month or two now.
HN is trickier because I don't have to login first to see it. When I start to think Im on it too much, I delete it from my password manager and don't supply an email. (Sorry, I know this is annoying to them what run this site)
Another useful thing is to generally keep a "don't respond to first level replies" policy. Keeps you in discussions but out of knee-jerk responses. Might seem rude but it keeps you sane.
[deleted]
What worked for me with Facebook is doing "Facebook Fridays" - as much Facebook as I wanted on Fridays and nothing the rest of the week. It didn't take long to realize I was not missing much.
With other sites like HN, I have short-term success with going cold turkey for a specific time-frame (e.g. a week). I can stick with that, and my use afterward is more moderate but eventually I come back to over-use.
With other sites like HN, I have short-term success with going cold turkey for a specific time-frame (e.g. a week). I can stick with that, and my use afterward is more moderate but eventually I come back to over-use.
It works for some people. I always had more success just gradually stopping.
I had massive issue with that, I always tried going cold turkey. Then I just stared to count hours, set high - but still - limits. And over time I found I feel that I don't have to, even if I'm withing the limits - I felt no need.
I had massive issue with that, I always tried going cold turkey. Then I just stared to count hours, set high - but still - limits. And over time I found I feel that I don't have to, even if I'm withing the limits - I felt no need.
I don't know if HN is a good place for personal advice like this;
I have grown severely paranoid about what has happened around social media. I watched.. a conversation unfold in 2012. I thought at the time that I needed to de-escalate it. It kept escalating as I kept looking for a way to talk to the people involved. And, to my own perception, it grew into and took over the entire 'national conversation' that was happening here in the years that followed. I now have panic attacks whenever I see the words / phrases / jargon / ideas I watched form 'here'. I often have severe enough psychological issues that I just disconnect from everything and repeat the question "who are you people" to myself. Especially as my suspicions of what it was that had spread from that day in 2012 grew to... everything people say/think/do.
I'm not sure what way I could move forward. I've been trying, with minimal success, to write down in long form what I saw happen. I've largely lost the emotional wherewithal for it. I tried reaching out to old friends for advice, which shows I've lost contact with everyone enough that I can't. I was terminally online before this all happened, and don't really know how to meet people away from here. Or if I would find the same things, and shut down again. I do know that my paranoia extends to people I see in real life. The past 1 year has pushed me into a constant fear of everyone, online and off.
Not sure if getting away from the internet would help now.
I have grown severely paranoid about what has happened around social media. I watched.. a conversation unfold in 2012. I thought at the time that I needed to de-escalate it. It kept escalating as I kept looking for a way to talk to the people involved. And, to my own perception, it grew into and took over the entire 'national conversation' that was happening here in the years that followed. I now have panic attacks whenever I see the words / phrases / jargon / ideas I watched form 'here'. I often have severe enough psychological issues that I just disconnect from everything and repeat the question "who are you people" to myself. Especially as my suspicions of what it was that had spread from that day in 2012 grew to... everything people say/think/do.
I'm not sure what way I could move forward. I've been trying, with minimal success, to write down in long form what I saw happen. I've largely lost the emotional wherewithal for it. I tried reaching out to old friends for advice, which shows I've lost contact with everyone enough that I can't. I was terminally online before this all happened, and don't really know how to meet people away from here. Or if I would find the same things, and shut down again. I do know that my paranoia extends to people I see in real life. The past 1 year has pushed me into a constant fear of everyone, online and off.
Not sure if getting away from the internet would help now.
I can't understand what you're saying, but I get that this may be a stressful topic so you are being vague. From what I see, it might be a good idea to look for some professional help if this is debilitating paranoia.
Thanks. I suppose I am being a bit too vague over all;
In terms of what it is I've grown paranoid about, it's mostly subjectively / paranoid-ly that I said 'everything'. Resolving that was a major goal I had for trying to write personal journals about this.
The other side of that is the more personal: I've lost basically all of my friends, and struggle to talk to my parents. While my emotional issues are getting in the way of trying to write out what I've grown fearful of, I also don't really know how to get in contact with anyone. That was where this post sounded relevant to me.
Moving on from a rank paranoia via internet might require first rebuilding my personal / social life somewhat, so I have something to fall back on. And doing so is blocked by that very paranoia and emotional issues. Catch-22. Being terminally online as I am, may be a help or a hindrance to trying to escape that.
In terms of what it is I've grown paranoid about, it's mostly subjectively / paranoid-ly that I said 'everything'. Resolving that was a major goal I had for trying to write personal journals about this.
The other side of that is the more personal: I've lost basically all of my friends, and struggle to talk to my parents. While my emotional issues are getting in the way of trying to write out what I've grown fearful of, I also don't really know how to get in contact with anyone. That was where this post sounded relevant to me.
Moving on from a rank paranoia via internet might require first rebuilding my personal / social life somewhat, so I have something to fall back on. And doing so is blocked by that very paranoia and emotional issues. Catch-22. Being terminally online as I am, may be a help or a hindrance to trying to escape that.
Some interesting thoughts, but an excellent example of why we use capital letters. Uncomfortable to read in all lower caps.
Buried deep within the post there is self-platform shilling, lol.
"Why not use our social media webshit instead? We are different, I promise".
"Why not use our social media webshit instead? We are different, I promise".
I had a similar wakeup call a couple of years back.
I'd become really invested in online communities on Twitter, Reddit and Discord. Like others participating, I was becoming increasingly radicalised to the dominant group opinions there, and my world view was being gradually reshaped by every interaction with these echo chambers. I was repeating what I read there to friends and family offline, much to their bemusement. It was addictive and consuming!
My trigger point for escaping this was unintentional. These happened to be a series of 'left-wing' online spaces (though what I'm about to write could occur anywhere really), and I was becoming increasingly internally critical of some of the dogma. After a certain incident on Reddit, where a moderator of a high-profile subreddit was banned site-wide for linking to a critical article about a Reddit admin, I posed a question on the Discord: what if this admin wasn't really what they say they are?
The reaction was swift and fierce - people I'd talked nicely and comradely with for months and years lining up to shout down my question, calling it offensive, sending me insults, calling me a bigot. I was then banned from the server.
This surprised and upset me to begin with, but then I started questioning myself and my motivations. Why was I so bothered about this? Why had I invested so much of my time and energy into these communities? Why would simply asking a question cause such a calamity? Did any of this really matter? Was engaging with any of this having a positive effect on anyone, including myself?
Over time, this led to two major changes in how I approached using the internet. Firstly, attempting to broaden my mind to consider other views and opinions, avoiding dogma and narrow thinking (this is still in progress!). Secondly, not being as tied to accounts and identities online - I deleted or deactivated all my social media accounts, and now just create throwaways whenever I get a desire to comment. This helps me feel that I can walk away whenever I want to or need to.
That said, I've found I still can't give up entirely on consuming social media, it's too addictive. But I hope this is a step in the right direction.
I hope my sharing of these insights provides some value to others who may be experiencing similar.
I'd become really invested in online communities on Twitter, Reddit and Discord. Like others participating, I was becoming increasingly radicalised to the dominant group opinions there, and my world view was being gradually reshaped by every interaction with these echo chambers. I was repeating what I read there to friends and family offline, much to their bemusement. It was addictive and consuming!
My trigger point for escaping this was unintentional. These happened to be a series of 'left-wing' online spaces (though what I'm about to write could occur anywhere really), and I was becoming increasingly internally critical of some of the dogma. After a certain incident on Reddit, where a moderator of a high-profile subreddit was banned site-wide for linking to a critical article about a Reddit admin, I posed a question on the Discord: what if this admin wasn't really what they say they are?
The reaction was swift and fierce - people I'd talked nicely and comradely with for months and years lining up to shout down my question, calling it offensive, sending me insults, calling me a bigot. I was then banned from the server.
This surprised and upset me to begin with, but then I started questioning myself and my motivations. Why was I so bothered about this? Why had I invested so much of my time and energy into these communities? Why would simply asking a question cause such a calamity? Did any of this really matter? Was engaging with any of this having a positive effect on anyone, including myself?
Over time, this led to two major changes in how I approached using the internet. Firstly, attempting to broaden my mind to consider other views and opinions, avoiding dogma and narrow thinking (this is still in progress!). Secondly, not being as tied to accounts and identities online - I deleted or deactivated all my social media accounts, and now just create throwaways whenever I get a desire to comment. This helps me feel that I can walk away whenever I want to or need to.
That said, I've found I still can't give up entirely on consuming social media, it's too addictive. But I hope this is a step in the right direction.
I hope my sharing of these insights provides some value to others who may be experiencing similar.
There's another word/phrase for being 'terminally online' or Internet addiction, and it's 'Extremely online'[0]. Although whether one can be truly addicted to the Internet is debatable. There are extreme cases, like in Japan of gamers literally dying from prolonged & excessive playing of online video games.
For me I dedicate a two hour window of time to being online, and typically come out of it enriched, not craving for more. It's a learning experience 99% of the time.
> Extremely online (often capitalized[1]), also known as terminally online[2] or chronically online,[3] is a phrase referring to someone closely engaged with Internet culture.[1] People said to be extremely online often believe that online posts are very important.[4][5] Events and phenomena can themselves be extremely online;[4] while often used as a descriptive term, the phenomenon of extreme onlineness has been described as "both a reformation of the delivery of ideas – shared through words and videos and memes and GIFs and copypasta – and the ideas themselves".[5] It has been said that "'online' can be thought of as a way of doing things, not the place they are done".[4]
> While the term was in use as early as 2014, it gained use over the latter half of the 2010s in conjunction with the increasing prevalence and notability of Internet phenomena in all areas of life.[1] Extremely online people, according to The Daily Dot, are interested in topics "no normal, healthy person could possibly care about",[1] and have been analogized to "pop culture fandoms, just without the pop".[1] Extremely online phenomena such as fan culture and reaction GIFs have been described as "swallowing democracy" by bloggers such as Amanda Hess in The New York Times;[6] who claimed that a "great convergence between politics and culture, values and aesthetics, citizenship and commercialism" had become "a dominant mode of experiencing politics".[6] Vulture (formerly the pop culture section of New York magazine, now a stand-alone website) has a section for articles tagged "extremely online".[7]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_online
For me I dedicate a two hour window of time to being online, and typically come out of it enriched, not craving for more. It's a learning experience 99% of the time.
> Extremely online (often capitalized[1]), also known as terminally online[2] or chronically online,[3] is a phrase referring to someone closely engaged with Internet culture.[1] People said to be extremely online often believe that online posts are very important.[4][5] Events and phenomena can themselves be extremely online;[4] while often used as a descriptive term, the phenomenon of extreme onlineness has been described as "both a reformation of the delivery of ideas – shared through words and videos and memes and GIFs and copypasta – and the ideas themselves".[5] It has been said that "'online' can be thought of as a way of doing things, not the place they are done".[4]
> While the term was in use as early as 2014, it gained use over the latter half of the 2010s in conjunction with the increasing prevalence and notability of Internet phenomena in all areas of life.[1] Extremely online people, according to The Daily Dot, are interested in topics "no normal, healthy person could possibly care about",[1] and have been analogized to "pop culture fandoms, just without the pop".[1] Extremely online phenomena such as fan culture and reaction GIFs have been described as "swallowing democracy" by bloggers such as Amanda Hess in The New York Times;[6] who claimed that a "great convergence between politics and culture, values and aesthetics, citizenship and commercialism" had become "a dominant mode of experiencing politics".[6] Vulture (formerly the pop culture section of New York magazine, now a stand-alone website) has a section for articles tagged "extremely online".[7]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_online
It's entirely reasonable to read through this article and come to the conclusion that you have a balanced approach to being online.
My hobbies involve a computer and the people I enjoy interacting with are online, not on a meetup site or at work.
The important thing is being able to self-reflect properly on it, and not delude oneself. I can still put my phone away to have dinner with family or some other outing easily, as a point of trying to be focused on whatever it is I'm doing.
My hobbies involve a computer and the people I enjoy interacting with are online, not on a meetup site or at work.
The important thing is being able to self-reflect properly on it, and not delude oneself. I can still put my phone away to have dinner with family or some other outing easily, as a point of trying to be focused on whatever it is I'm doing.
Well it is a good message but a tad poorly researched and underdeveloped thoughts.
Being stuck in a "compulsion loop" online is not healthy for your mind. It doesn't matter if it is Twitter, TikTok or even Hacker News. What I'm seeing online now and those around me. Online behaviours that take the form of addictions are not healthy and should not be a part of a healthy persons lifestyle. And I wish that it would become a trend.
Being stuck in a "compulsion loop" online is not healthy for your mind. It doesn't matter if it is Twitter, TikTok or even Hacker News. What I'm seeing online now and those around me. Online behaviours that take the form of addictions are not healthy and should not be a part of a healthy persons lifestyle. And I wish that it would become a trend.
Author alludes to such, but the chief distinguishing factor I see is whether one prefers real life, or the unreal life offered by the Internet.
This.
Sometimes being "terminally online" is better than the alternative until life circumstances change.
Sometimes being "terminally online" is better than the alternative until life circumstances change.
I used to be much harder on people I perceived as being always online.
Then I remember I was about as online as you could be in the late 90s.
Sometimes, or even lots of times, people are just trying to get by.
Then I remember I was about as online as you could be in the late 90s.
Sometimes, or even lots of times, people are just trying to get by.
The internet stopped being distinct from "real life" some time ago.
It's the difference between staying at home playing video games at Friday night versus going somewhere with your friends. This choice is made every week, and if you choose video games over in-person social interaction repeatedly, then there is a difference between real life and digital life.
The preference for "real life" I mention is a question of whether individuals engage with reality in non-digital form on a regular basis, or if they hide from it.
The preference for "real life" I mention is a question of whether individuals engage with reality in non-digital form on a regular basis, or if they hide from it.
I uninstalled every social app. The reason I don't go back to a Nokia 3310 is because I have a company phone and I do part of my work on my phone (although I'd argue it's because I can't refuse to wait for when I'm in front of a laptop. It's convenient to do it now on the phone rather than waiting and doing it later.)
And I actually tried to go back to my mum phone this summer, she had an old unused Samsung Galaxy J3 (Android 5).
I only installed Telegram and Whatsapp.
It's totally doable but it's really slow. The positive thing is that most of the apps stopped working for Android 5. So even if I wanted to install them I cannot.
Unfortunately nobody uses in my area nothing else but discord, telegram and whatsapp so I feel I don't want to be completely disconnected that way.
I was thinking that, well, I could actually just wait to be in front of a laptop also for telegram and whatsapp but it seemed too much.
And I actually tried to go back to my mum phone this summer, she had an old unused Samsung Galaxy J3 (Android 5).
I only installed Telegram and Whatsapp.
It's totally doable but it's really slow. The positive thing is that most of the apps stopped working for Android 5. So even if I wanted to install them I cannot.
Unfortunately nobody uses in my area nothing else but discord, telegram and whatsapp so I feel I don't want to be completely disconnected that way.
I was thinking that, well, I could actually just wait to be in front of a laptop also for telegram and whatsapp but it seemed too much.
I don't spend too much time online. Proof: I didn't read that blog post, because it is faaar too long.
I broke my phones screen the other day & decided not to install Facebook and other apps like Reddit on my “old” backup phone, so far I’m liking it.
Certain communities on Facebook are quite interesting but my main feed is filled with so much viral junk that I end up scrolling through crap for hours a week.. Once I start, it consumes me for a while. Kind of sad really, I would rather spend time doing other relaxing things offline instead.
Just came back from a 2 hour walk outside with my son through our local park and farm, usually I'd of checked Facebook at least twice, I enjoyed it a hell of a lot more without “having to check” this or that.
I miss the simple days of just having forums and IM.
Certain communities on Facebook are quite interesting but my main feed is filled with so much viral junk that I end up scrolling through crap for hours a week.. Once I start, it consumes me for a while. Kind of sad really, I would rather spend time doing other relaxing things offline instead.
Just came back from a 2 hour walk outside with my son through our local park and farm, usually I'd of checked Facebook at least twice, I enjoyed it a hell of a lot more without “having to check” this or that.
I miss the simple days of just having forums and IM.
The author mentioning “based” and “cringe” reminded me that meme culture ages poorly while endlessly recycling the same tropes/jokes. Eight years ago the dichotomy was “dank”-“normie”, and Impact was used with way less meta-irony.
I recently re-read the first few verses of the LOLCat Bible[1]. It did not hold up well.
1 https://web.archive.org/web/20190327161227/http://www.lolcat...
1 https://web.archive.org/web/20190327161227/http://www.lolcat...
The lack of capitalization made me sprint through the text. I wonder if anyone else had this experience. I had to come up for air towards the end. Even after I realized I was doing it I couldn't slow down.
These are great questions. The process of introspection can lead to many new discoveries beyond internet addiction. Why are you the way you are? Why are you in the career you chose? Why are you living the life you live today?
Not that you should overly become self-aware, but when you are aware of something you are or do without knowing previously, you can change your life in a positive way.
Some of my favorite reads this year about the topic of the internet are:
Four arguments for the elimination of television
and
Amusing ourselves to death
These are great books to help you introspect on your technology habits.
Not that you should overly become self-aware, but when you are aware of something you are or do without knowing previously, you can change your life in a positive way.
Some of my favorite reads this year about the topic of the internet are:
Four arguments for the elimination of television
and
Amusing ourselves to death
These are great books to help you introspect on your technology habits.
At 21 I’ve only recently started asking myself those questions, after having been “pushed” into a coding career due to some strange life circumstances, when I was actually interested in finance and medicine before. When I got promoted to Sr, colleagues going “wow, only 21”, it felt good, and I never even stopped to ask myself if I really wanted it.
In a lot of senses, introspection and thinking hurts; growing hurts, regrets hurt, dreams unfulfilled hurt, guilt hurts, what could’ve been hurt, and the future that awaits you, unless you change something, hurts.
And distraction numbs the pain. Numbs the thoughts. I’ll take an uneducated guess that a big chunk of cases of anxiety and depression are not caused by chemical imbalances, and are simply people’s brains telling them “you’re doing something wrong, correct course! Correct course! Correct course!”. Kind of like the aircraft TCAS/GPWS “Terrain. Pull. Up. Pull. Up. Terrain. Terrain. Terrain”
I guess that most people, both around me and online, never ask themselves those questions, and simply go through life as it happens. For some, that doesn’t go so bad.
Almost never does a successful, happy, fulfilled, healthy life come from a lack of introspection and suffering. “I carry the wounds from the battles I avoided”.
In a lot of senses, introspection and thinking hurts; growing hurts, regrets hurt, dreams unfulfilled hurt, guilt hurts, what could’ve been hurt, and the future that awaits you, unless you change something, hurts.
And distraction numbs the pain. Numbs the thoughts. I’ll take an uneducated guess that a big chunk of cases of anxiety and depression are not caused by chemical imbalances, and are simply people’s brains telling them “you’re doing something wrong, correct course! Correct course! Correct course!”. Kind of like the aircraft TCAS/GPWS “Terrain. Pull. Up. Pull. Up. Terrain. Terrain. Terrain”
I guess that most people, both around me and online, never ask themselves those questions, and simply go through life as it happens. For some, that doesn’t go so bad.
Almost never does a successful, happy, fulfilled, healthy life come from a lack of introspection and suffering. “I carry the wounds from the battles I avoided”.
> I’ll take an uneducated guess that a big chunk of cases of anxiety and depression are not caused by chemical imbalances, and are simply people’s brains telling them “you’re doing something wrong, correct course!
I've seen people educated in the field saying the same thing. Depression is nature's way to prod you to make a change in your life. Something isn't working. So you're probably not wrong, at least for some fraction of cases.
I've seen people educated in the field saying the same thing. Depression is nature's way to prod you to make a change in your life. Something isn't working. So you're probably not wrong, at least for some fraction of cases.
This is what I believe. I wrote a book about it. A year of depression suddenly went away when I started to embrace my purpose further.
You're a very self-aware individual.
I think there are many lessons in stoicism, taoism, and buddhism that have helped me understand these concepts on an individual level. Here's an excerpt from a book I'm writing about this topic:
- Through Stoicism I found a sense of moderation, seeing the world for what it is and what it is not, and focusing on what I can control and having contempt for that which I cannot.
- Through Taoism I had learned to let softness overcome the hard, appreciate my uselessness, and to flow along when appropriate.
- Through Buddhism I had learned that my attachment would lead to suffering, appreciating the present moment, and how a trained mind leads to true happiness.
I believe that pain doesn't leave the body until it's done teaching you. I know it's not the most sensitive thing to say, but after a complete year of crippling depression, I felt it lift once I understood what it was trying to teach me.
I think there are many lessons in stoicism, taoism, and buddhism that have helped me understand these concepts on an individual level. Here's an excerpt from a book I'm writing about this topic:
- Through Stoicism I found a sense of moderation, seeing the world for what it is and what it is not, and focusing on what I can control and having contempt for that which I cannot.
- Through Taoism I had learned to let softness overcome the hard, appreciate my uselessness, and to flow along when appropriate.
- Through Buddhism I had learned that my attachment would lead to suffering, appreciating the present moment, and how a trained mind leads to true happiness.
I believe that pain doesn't leave the body until it's done teaching you. I know it's not the most sensitive thing to say, but after a complete year of crippling depression, I felt it lift once I understood what it was trying to teach me.
Thanks. I’m just starting on a long road of self improvement which began this month, after a metaphorical train of realizations (in the shape of sudden depression/anxiety) regarding my life hit me once my girlfriend left me and explained why she did.
Those 3 points about those disciplines are really interesting, I’m going to have to read more about them.
>I believe that pain doesn’t leave the body until it’s done teaching you.
I’ve slowly been coming to the same conclusion over the last month, indeed.
Those 3 points about those disciplines are really interesting, I’m going to have to read more about them.
>I believe that pain doesn’t leave the body until it’s done teaching you.
I’ve slowly been coming to the same conclusion over the last month, indeed.
I wonder, if the lack of capital letters is a part of the message.
I think barring especially extreme cases this is just the "television is ruining the world" of our generation. I'd describe myself as terminally online as I spend most of my time using the internet in some form.
Regarding use of internet slang, there's the fact that the Covid lockdowns helped accelerate a pretty massive shift in how we interact even with people we can meet in-person. Unless you're living with someone, the bulk of interactions with them are probably going to be online. Then, since you're online you end up using internet slang, which gradually bleeds into regular speech. There is nothing wrong with this.
There's also the issue that you're going to want to share your hobbies with people, which is hard without the internet if your hobby is kind of niche. Most of my hobbies are very niche, I have only ever known 1 person irl and 3 people online who had a similar enough set of hobbies. Even programming and working with electronics, which started as a hobby for me when I was 13-14, only developed because of the ability to find like-minded people online, away from my irl 'friend' group who only saw it as something to make fun of me for and parents who didn't believe in anything but schoolwork and perfect grades.
Overall, this post seems to be based on the assumption that people who are terminally online haven't put thought into their lives or that it's wrong to be okay with it. I can still unplug when having an interaction irl which I think is sufficiently important like with family (although somewhat ironically, the only way for me to interact with my family over the past 2 years was over the internet), but simultaneously, most of the people I enjoy talking to and can deeply relate to are only accessible online.
I get the impression that to the author, "terminally online" is equivalent to being someone who spends all their time getting into heated political arguments on Reddit and Twitter. While I did go through that phase too, I realized how unhappy it was making me and the solution wasn't disconnecting but rather identifying sources of bad content and disengaging. I got rid of all the default subs on Reddit, sticking only to ones related to my hobbies and being very selective about following more subs, same with Twitter. I also got much more selective about replying to things (eg I'll usually just ignore replies to my posts which I feel might devolve into an argument). The result was that the content that made me "ragescroll" went away and I got happier.
Regarding use of internet slang, there's the fact that the Covid lockdowns helped accelerate a pretty massive shift in how we interact even with people we can meet in-person. Unless you're living with someone, the bulk of interactions with them are probably going to be online. Then, since you're online you end up using internet slang, which gradually bleeds into regular speech. There is nothing wrong with this.
There's also the issue that you're going to want to share your hobbies with people, which is hard without the internet if your hobby is kind of niche. Most of my hobbies are very niche, I have only ever known 1 person irl and 3 people online who had a similar enough set of hobbies. Even programming and working with electronics, which started as a hobby for me when I was 13-14, only developed because of the ability to find like-minded people online, away from my irl 'friend' group who only saw it as something to make fun of me for and parents who didn't believe in anything but schoolwork and perfect grades.
Overall, this post seems to be based on the assumption that people who are terminally online haven't put thought into their lives or that it's wrong to be okay with it. I can still unplug when having an interaction irl which I think is sufficiently important like with family (although somewhat ironically, the only way for me to interact with my family over the past 2 years was over the internet), but simultaneously, most of the people I enjoy talking to and can deeply relate to are only accessible online.
I get the impression that to the author, "terminally online" is equivalent to being someone who spends all their time getting into heated political arguments on Reddit and Twitter. While I did go through that phase too, I realized how unhappy it was making me and the solution wasn't disconnecting but rather identifying sources of bad content and disengaging. I got rid of all the default subs on Reddit, sticking only to ones related to my hobbies and being very selective about following more subs, same with Twitter. I also got much more selective about replying to things (eg I'll usually just ignore replies to my posts which I feel might devolve into an argument). The result was that the content that made me "ragescroll" went away and I got happier.
One more option to complement the rest: what I do is have the cheapest, smallest, mobile data package that lets me get done the stuff I actually value (3 GB/month, turning my commute into a focused time for various online learning courses).
There’s some spare bandwidth for habitually chatting, but not much.
There’s some spare bandwidth for habitually chatting, but not much.
> what is your life philosophy? what do you believe in? do the communities you browse online reflect this in some way? did you learn about these from people online?
If anything, there’s a better chance of finding this online vs irl.
If anything, there’s a better chance of finding this online vs irl.
What does `terminally online` mean precisely ? What's the definition ?
It’s the vibe, it’s Mabo.
Why does it feel that more and more people aren't not using capital letters anymore? What is this, a trend, some kind of movement?
e e cummings would be proud!
Wasn't expecting to see a Jerma985 reference in this, too bad the video link is broken (video unavailable).
Simply quitting social media is the wrong response to the problems of the attention economy. Wrong also is adopting "calming" practices while uncritically embracing the ethos of social media companies. Resistance requires examining, questioning, and changing the underlying economic forces driving Silicon Valley.
Publicly declaring abstention from social media demonstrates the abstainer's privilege and taste more than it does any higher purpose. The point is to be intentional about our attention, and decide what to focus on and how to do it. This requires discipline and planning.Discussions of the problems with social media must question the driving neoliberal economics, consumerism and the Free Market Fairy. Suggesting individuals should choose to abstain comes from a point of view where individual choice is elevated to moral dogma.
Social media profits from human fallibility. Maintaining those profits under the pressures of capitalism requires the business to make people feel worse, and then offering them a palliative. In some respects, it's like the indulgences of the Catholic church in Martin Luther's time. The supposed values of social media in connecting and informing people, building communities, providing a medium of self-expression are warped by profit incentives. They no longer help. Instead, they exacerbate negativity. Social media have a vested interest in making things worse, or at less making them seem so.
Publicly declaring abstention from social media demonstrates the abstainer's privilege and taste more than it does any higher purpose. The point is to be intentional about our attention, and decide what to focus on and how to do it. This requires discipline and planning.Discussions of the problems with social media must question the driving neoliberal economics, consumerism and the Free Market Fairy. Suggesting individuals should choose to abstain comes from a point of view where individual choice is elevated to moral dogma.
Social media profits from human fallibility. Maintaining those profits under the pressures of capitalism requires the business to make people feel worse, and then offering them a palliative. In some respects, it's like the indulgences of the Catholic church in Martin Luther's time. The supposed values of social media in connecting and informing people, building communities, providing a medium of self-expression are warped by profit incentives. They no longer help. Instead, they exacerbate negativity. Social media have a vested interest in making things worse, or at less making them seem so.
it's simply more desirable than the alternative.
being stuck with your thoughts, past regrets and future worries.
being stuck with your thoughts, past regrets and future worries.
Yes, I think this is the least understood point about addictions. They kind of work. I mean, people do those behaviours because they are getting something out of it.
My biggest problem right now isn’t online per se, rather it’s a video game.
Any ideas as to how to deal with it?
Any ideas as to how to deal with it?
I feel like I'm on online alot, but didn't really relate to alot of those questions.
Beautifully written with a lot of thought provoking paragraphs. I am a web developer who is working from home, also I make music in my free time and play online games. I relate highly to what was written but I don't see a way out unfortunately, at least not without shifting careers which is something I am not planning to do in the meantime.
Not quite sure what "terminally online" really means...
It's as if to say, "being online so much it will kill you," like having a "terminal disease."
This needs a companion article “How to stop typing in lowercase only”.
It seems if I ever call out a loved one, whether my brother or wife or friend, for being on their phone too much, they immediately get defensive and argue they were just doing some one task. Even if this was initiated after them being zoned out for an hour or longer. And I've done the same when reading something super interesting and getting lost in time.
Honestly, it doesn't seem much different than how addicts act in an intervention. We need to realize that this is an addiction, label and treat it appropriately.
My wife finally relented when our kid asked me to do something while I was working because 'mom is too busy with Facebook again.' I think that really hurt her feelings, even if she never admitted as much.