I spent a year designing a low profile, minimal mechanical keyboard(electronicmaterialsoffice.com)
electronicmaterialsoffice.com
I spent a year designing a low profile, minimal mechanical keyboard
https://electronicmaterialsoffice.com/
687 comments
Low profile ergonomic mechanical keyboard is a pretty deep hole to dive into.
You can design your own PCB, order it from manufacturer and build the exact keyboard you want (split, wireless, with knobs, any form and key count).
It is not for everyone and might require soldering, but possibilities are endless.
Additional resources:
- r/ErgoMechBoards: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/
- Low Profile Discord: https://discord.com/invite/dBSRZ2a
- Collection of split low profile mechanical keyboards: https://kbd.news/tag/low-profile/
- "A Tiny, Ultra-Affordable Keyboard You Can Build Yourself!" video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqpBKuEVinw
Additional resources:
- r/ErgoMechBoards: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/
- Low Profile Discord: https://discord.com/invite/dBSRZ2a
- Collection of split low profile mechanical keyboards: https://kbd.news/tag/low-profile/
- "A Tiny, Ultra-Affordable Keyboard You Can Build Yourself!" video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqpBKuEVinw
I had to scroll so far to see this comment! Glad to see someone mentioned r/ergomechkeyboards and even the lowpro discord! I was really surprised there wasn't more mention of either here since there's much more low-pro / minimal ergo designs out there.
I think anybody interested in a low pro, minimal, ergo design, with great build quality should checkout the corneish zen. I'm really happy I got in on the last round and I cant wait for my 3x5 to come in with LDSA caps and the new tactile sunset switches. Darryl at LowProKB is a mad scientist.
https://lowprokb.ca/products/corne-ish-zen
I think anybody interested in a low pro, minimal, ergo design, with great build quality should checkout the corneish zen. I'm really happy I got in on the last round and I cant wait for my 3x5 to come in with LDSA caps and the new tactile sunset switches. Darryl at LowProKB is a mad scientist.
https://lowprokb.ca/products/corne-ish-zen
Indeed. By the post title I hoped to see link to something like Ferris Sweep github page with open source PCB and QMK/ZMK configuration.
I was disappointed that traction was gained by (subjectively) horrible row-stagger layout on a non-split board without extensive configuration capabilities.
Regarding lowprokb's corne it is worth mentioning that $320 for board is a lot in a low profile community. If one capable of soldering board by themself you can get pretty much any layout under $150 (for USB version, BLE MCUs are a little more expensive).
Price list would look something like this (shipping included):
- $20: x2 ProMicro (type C version exists on Aliexpress) microcontroller
- $50: x5 JLCPCB PCB print (you cannot order less than 5 PCBs so you'll have spare parts)
- $30: x50 Kailh low profile switch (you might need less that that)
- $50: x50 MBK low profile keycaps
-~$150: Total, excluding soldering iron and consumables.
Often low profile boards are caseless, meaning that PCB is open[0].
[0]: https://ik.imagekit.io/dkptz7znccj/wp-content/uploads/2022/0...
I was disappointed that traction was gained by (subjectively) horrible row-stagger layout on a non-split board without extensive configuration capabilities.
Regarding lowprokb's corne it is worth mentioning that $320 for board is a lot in a low profile community. If one capable of soldering board by themself you can get pretty much any layout under $150 (for USB version, BLE MCUs are a little more expensive).
Price list would look something like this (shipping included):
- $20: x2 ProMicro (type C version exists on Aliexpress) microcontroller
- $50: x5 JLCPCB PCB print (you cannot order less than 5 PCBs so you'll have spare parts)
- $30: x50 Kailh low profile switch (you might need less that that)
- $50: x50 MBK low profile keycaps
-~$150: Total, excluding soldering iron and consumables.
Often low profile boards are caseless, meaning that PCB is open[0].
[0]: https://ik.imagekit.io/dkptz7znccj/wp-content/uploads/2022/0...
Do you have a new invite link for the Discord, this one is "invalid" according to Discord! Thx! :D
This looks fantastic!
A thought-experiment that may interest you coming from someone (me) who already has happily spent several hundreds of dollars on mechanical keyboards and uses them every single day:
Let's imagine the keyboard could be bought today as-is with a simple "Buy Now" button and price was no concern.
The two main reasons I would _still_ hesitate to hit that button are:
1. I absolutely and undoubtedly need to know what it SOUNDS and FEELS like. Is it linear, tactile, clicky? How much? I turned my speakers to max because I assumed you'd have some audio-track running but to no avail. Did I miss something?
2. I wish there was a 'blank' version with zero typography anywhere. Just all black. I touch-type and have not looked at my keyboard in 15 years.
A thought-experiment that may interest you coming from someone (me) who already has happily spent several hundreds of dollars on mechanical keyboards and uses them every single day:
Let's imagine the keyboard could be bought today as-is with a simple "Buy Now" button and price was no concern.
The two main reasons I would _still_ hesitate to hit that button are:
1. I absolutely and undoubtedly need to know what it SOUNDS and FEELS like. Is it linear, tactile, clicky? How much? I turned my speakers to max because I assumed you'd have some audio-track running but to no avail. Did I miss something?
2. I wish there was a 'blank' version with zero typography anywhere. Just all black. I touch-type and have not looked at my keyboard in 15 years.
> 2. I wish there was a 'blank' version with zero typography anywhere. Just all black. I touch-type and have not looked at my keyboard in 15 years.
If you don't look at it, why do you care if it has typography? (that's an honest question, not a rhetorical point dressed up as a question)
If you don't look at it, why do you care if it has typography? (that's an honest question, not a rhetorical point dressed up as a question)
I'm guessing it's simple aesthetics, but also there is no lettering to "wear" (not really an issue with quality keycaps), and you can rebind keys without being "wrong". I've used blank keyboards over the years and the lack of printed keycaps is a look all its own.
I bought (imported!) a happy hacking pro 2 like 8 years ago and I wanted it to be blank. There was no german layout (still not existing?) and wrong labels are a no go for me.
Its still my daily driver and I love it.
Just yesterday I cleaned it, removed every key etc. Its every time a total mess to put it together but I eventually made it.
Its still my daily driver and I love it.
Just yesterday I cleaned it, removed every key etc. Its every time a total mess to put it together but I eventually made it.
> Just yesterday I cleaned it, removed every key etc. Its every time a total mess to put it together but I eventually made it.
I regularly clean my HHKB. I simply remove all the keys and lay them out in the exact same layout as they're on the keyboard, which makes it easy to then put them back on. I cannot believe the filth that's underneath the keys and always think: "I can't believe it's been that long I haven't cleaned it"... Yuck. Keyboards are disgusting!
I regularly clean my HHKB. I simply remove all the keys and lay them out in the exact same layout as they're on the keyboard, which makes it easy to then put them back on. I cannot believe the filth that's underneath the keys and always think: "I can't believe it's been that long I haven't cleaned it"... Yuck. Keyboards are disgusting!
I put the caps in a lingerie bag and toss it in the dish washer. Throw in the mouse pad while I'm at it, then go wild with isopropyl alcohol on anything that can't go in the dish washer.
Most keys were also upsettingly dirty. I think its like 2 years I cleaned it the last time. I put them all in a pillowcase and use the washer.
I tried a similar approach to yours the first time I did it and messed it up. I get better each time doing it. Its like a puzzle game. Took only a hour or so.
I tried a similar approach to yours the first time I did it and messed it up. I get better each time doing it. Its like a puzzle game. Took only a hour or so.
Good question. I honestly don't know.
First, John Maeda had written about this idea of a computer keyboard being more like a (musical) instrument than a tool.[^1] That always stuck with me.
Second, in itself, a keyboard is a complex object residing in my space. To me, the letters add visual noise. It's just a low hum, not a loud screech. But I would buy the blank version.
[^1]: https://johnmaeda.medium.com/thoughts-on-leading-a-remote-de...
First, John Maeda had written about this idea of a computer keyboard being more like a (musical) instrument than a tool.[^1] That always stuck with me.
Second, in itself, a keyboard is a complex object residing in my space. To me, the letters add visual noise. It's just a low hum, not a loud screech. But I would buy the blank version.
[^1]: https://johnmaeda.medium.com/thoughts-on-leading-a-remote-de...
Sounds like Das Keyboard: https://www.daskeyboard.com/daskeyboard-4-ultimate/
Thank you for the tip!
My take on "ze Germans", "psycho-acoustics" and "badass typists"
First off: As a native German-speaker, I always have to giggle with the whole "Das" Keyboard. "Das Keeboahd. Jaaaa."
Secondly: As silly as "...the psycho-acoustic experience [...] an unmatched typing experience" sounds. I know exactly what they're talking about. And it matters to me.
Maybe, as a neurodivergent person, it's because it provides a stim that I need in exchange for sitting still. So, to their credit, "psycho-acoustic experience" nails it for me.
Thirdly: Not in this lifetime will I buy a product named "Badass4" made for "badass typists" (Honestly, wtf?). I will not get into criticizing the overall shape. That's a matter of taste. Let's just say, the Altair I speaks to my preferences.
My take on "ze Germans", "psycho-acoustics" and "badass typists"
First off: As a native German-speaker, I always have to giggle with the whole "Das" Keyboard. "Das Keeboahd. Jaaaa."
Secondly: As silly as "...the psycho-acoustic experience [...] an unmatched typing experience" sounds. I know exactly what they're talking about. And it matters to me.
Maybe, as a neurodivergent person, it's because it provides a stim that I need in exchange for sitting still. So, to their credit, "psycho-acoustic experience" nails it for me.
Thirdly: Not in this lifetime will I buy a product named "Badass4" made for "badass typists" (Honestly, wtf?). I will not get into criticizing the overall shape. That's a matter of taste. Let's just say, the Altair I speaks to my preferences.
I wish Vat19 did a Das Keyboard promo with Hans Gretel, a la Das Beer Boot. Would have been amazing.
I'm French and have my keyboard setup to French, but I use a German keyboard that I bought used for dirt cheap. I touch type so I usually don't look at it, but in general it would be better if it was completely blank instead of having some keys right and some wrong.
I had the same curiosity about offering a blank keyboard because I've been using one for 8 years or so after it was recommended by a former co-worker who I have huge respect for. So I'll give it a shot to explain the difference after I got adjusted to it:
I did not realize that my brain was still wired to look at the keyboard periodically, specifically when dealing with special characters and really anything outside of typical alphanumeric. I only realized after the adjustment that each time I had to find one of these keys it was a minor interruption to my current thoughts. The best way to describe it is imagine a piano with every single key labeled as to what the note is. It would be difficult to teach people to think about the creativity and harmony and melody aspect of music and to directly translate what they hear in their head into muscle memory to reproduce it. With the keys labeled it would be like training wheels and difficult to get people off of this because the translation would constantly be:
- I hear a "G" in my head
- I see a "G" on the piano
- I play the "G" on the piano
Instead really what you want the brain to do is say:
- Here's what I play to get the sound in my head
With no in between. Or similar to learning a new language and having to internally translate things to your native language before you can understand (or the reverse for speaking). Instead you just want to immediately know what this language is saying with no native translation.
TL,DR: Once you really internalize that looking at the keyboard makes 0 difference, it's one less minor thing for your brain to think about and your flow isn't interrupted as frequent by internal thoughts. Using a blank keyboard is just a (admittedly somewhat extreme) way to force yourself into this.
I did not realize that my brain was still wired to look at the keyboard periodically, specifically when dealing with special characters and really anything outside of typical alphanumeric. I only realized after the adjustment that each time I had to find one of these keys it was a minor interruption to my current thoughts. The best way to describe it is imagine a piano with every single key labeled as to what the note is. It would be difficult to teach people to think about the creativity and harmony and melody aspect of music and to directly translate what they hear in their head into muscle memory to reproduce it. With the keys labeled it would be like training wheels and difficult to get people off of this because the translation would constantly be:
- I hear a "G" in my head
- I see a "G" on the piano
- I play the "G" on the piano
Instead really what you want the brain to do is say:
- Here's what I play to get the sound in my head
With no in between. Or similar to learning a new language and having to internally translate things to your native language before you can understand (or the reverse for speaking). Instead you just want to immediately know what this language is saying with no native translation.
TL,DR: Once you really internalize that looking at the keyboard makes 0 difference, it's one less minor thing for your brain to think about and your flow isn't interrupted as frequent by internal thoughts. Using a blank keyboard is just a (admittedly somewhat extreme) way to force yourself into this.
This makes me wonder if I would have had an easier time learning piano with more explicit notes on the keys...
I actually pulled that example from watching my sibling learn the piano in the 90's using that exact method. The teacher used stickers on the keys to speed up the initial muscle memory building (it also kept younger kids from getting discouraged so easily due to difficulty). After a few simple tunes and when they knew where "G" was without the stickers and without counting from middle "C", the stickers came off and the ear training began to play what they hear.
One funny thing about being a largely self-taught guitarist is that I spent years with the instrument not knowing the names of the notes I was playing. Especially since guitarists tend to play a lot of tablature, you can get surprisingly adept without knowing the notes. This works out ok for a while, but eventually becomes limiting as you try to expand your fretboard and music theory knowledge.
Guitar is much easier since it's just notes... whereas on piano a given interval can need a different stretch depending on the notes.
Absolutely! In fact a pretty common entry point to gaining fretboard knowledge is to learn various interval shapes across string groups, usually starting with octave shapes. Then you move on to major and minor thirds, and fifths.(Although I'm sure for many self taught guitarists, like me, you learn a 5th shape before anything else, since this forms the common and remarkably useful "power chord").
It's complicated a bit by that pesky 2nd string, which is tuned to a major 3rd from the 3rd string (all other string pairs have an ascending 4th between them). But still quite useful in helping new players learn to get around the fretboard.
It's complicated a bit by that pesky 2nd string, which is tuned to a major 3rd from the 3rd string (all other string pairs have an ascending 4th between them). But still quite useful in helping new players learn to get around the fretboard.
Self taught guitarist here as well, and it's fascinating to see another person having such a similar experience as me! Usually people look at me in confusion when I say this stuff.
I'm stealing piano analogy, thanks. I bought a blank keyboard half as a joke and ended up finding labeled ones slightly harder to use
For me it’s unsettling to have the keys mislabeled. The options are:
- Correctly labeled keys: convenient (positive), but unachievable in practice due to occasional changes to the layout
- Blank keys: no problem (neutral)
- Mislabeled keys: something is wrong (negative)
If I’m spending $$$ on something I want at least the neutral option.
- Correctly labeled keys: convenient (positive), but unachievable in practice due to occasional changes to the layout
- Blank keys: no problem (neutral)
- Mislabeled keys: something is wrong (negative)
If I’m spending $$$ on something I want at least the neutral option.
I've covered up certain logos in my line of sight while working to reduce visual distraction. I'm not as confident about my touchtype confidence that I could do it for the keys.
This podcast talks a bit about the visual system's role in focus:
https://hubermanlab.com/dr-emily-balcetis-tools-for-setting-...
This podcast talks a bit about the visual system's role in focus:
https://hubermanlab.com/dr-emily-balcetis-tools-for-setting-...
First thought was he saw this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHt01D6rOLI&ab_channel=JomaT...
leet cred, I assume
Down in tech specs it says the switches are Kailh Chocolate Low Profile Reds, which are a reasonably common linear switch.
Also, OP, you've got a typo in those same specs: OS support is listed as "Apple MacOS 12 (Monteray) and up". That should be Monterey with an E.
I'm a bit curious why the keyboard requires MacOS 12 or Windows 10, and doesn't list Linux support...it's an HID device. Just about anything will work, right? I assume it's configured out of the box with CONFIG_ZMK_HID_CONSUMER_REPORT_USAGES_FULL, and not _BASIC, to get the RGB and encoder to work...but again, this is a keyboard. Why wouldn't it work?
Also, OP, you've got a typo in those same specs: OS support is listed as "Apple MacOS 12 (Monteray) and up". That should be Monterey with an E.
I'm a bit curious why the keyboard requires MacOS 12 or Windows 10, and doesn't list Linux support...it's an HID device. Just about anything will work, right? I assume it's configured out of the box with CONFIG_ZMK_HID_CONSUMER_REPORT_USAGES_FULL, and not _BASIC, to get the RGB and encoder to work...but again, this is a keyboard. Why wouldn't it work?
I think that's mostly a "I tested it with these OS so I can guarantee it works" thing - ZMK should work with pretty much anything out there as long as it can do HID over Bluetooth.
There's likely a toggle switch to configure command/option vs. window/alt - I've seen that on other high-end keyboards. With linux you can use either depending on how you like to keybind.
As long as we're being picky, it's also "macOS", no capital M, and not "MacOS".
A few years ago here in Argentina, the "free" keyboard with your desktop computer was usually a Spanish-LatinoAmerica 101-keyboard. You have the "Ñ" key, but the "><" key was missing. One solution was to install a special unofficial device driver downloaded from a page I can't find now. Perhaps this keyboard need some special configuration.
Same question, the command iconography is a turn off. I'm a mixed owner and prefer peripherals that flawlessly work on both.
Agreed, acoustics are SO important. Once I am happy with how the prototype sounds I will update the website with a typing text.
Fantastic, yes, thank you in advance. I can't imagine the work that already went into the design.
Anecdotally, I love that low, guttural 'clŪCK' sound that Cherry MX Clears make.
Anecdotally, I love that low, guttural 'clŪCK' sound that Cherry MX Clears make.
1. Does that matter? Most mechanical keyboards slowly nuke your fingers' cartilages and will make your fingers ache, since they don't have proper attenuation, hence they are rubbish. Yet people use them like it's some kind of miracle, when a cheapo 15 dollar keyboard provides better feel while typing and longevity for your fingers.
The site describes the switches as similar to reds. Linear, no tactile bump, silent.
[deleted]
Thank so much, that covers the feel – I wish there was sound ;)
Changing out to your preferred switches with the sound and pressure you want is pretty easy with mechanical keyboards.
You just need to make sure and get low profile ones to go with this board.
I suggest dropping $20 on a sample pack to find your perfect switch. They are also great to keep on your desk to fidget with. https://drop.com/buy/assorted-mechanical-mx-switches-sampler...
You just need to make sure and get low profile ones to go with this board.
I suggest dropping $20 on a sample pack to find your perfect switch. They are also great to keep on your desk to fidget with. https://drop.com/buy/assorted-mechanical-mx-switches-sampler...
Looks like the switches are chocs. You can get blank caps from mkultra.click.
I hate to tell you - and this is a common "theme" on HN - but you are probably not the target audience.
Oh, interesting! You might totally be right.
I honestly thought I was the target audience, given I have bought mech keyboards, use them all day and want to buy more. So, in my book, I'm a real prospect but, yeah, maybe there's an even smaller niche.
I honestly thought I was the target audience, given I have bought mech keyboards, use them all day and want to buy more. So, in my book, I'm a real prospect but, yeah, maybe there's an even smaller niche.
I've never bought a mechanical keyboard but I'm a designer and the aesthetics + promise of a more tactile experience has me interested. I don't have a lot of comparison points or references beyond "MacBook butterfly keyboard gross, magic keyboard good".
The creator of the keyboard literally posted this to ask for feedback from HN users. I'm pretty sure in this instance HN users _are_ the target audience--or at least part of it. In any case, feedback is helpful at this stage (and is sought by OP).
Cool, congrats and thanks for sharing, we need more competition here
1. raised/indented keys will get dirty really fast, an option without would sell me
2. 2-device pairing is great, your competitors have 3 though
3. hot-swap keycaps would be a huge sell
4. nice typography, why isn't the logo in it? take off the logo
5. replace the empty area with home => end
6. 3 modifiers on the left, 3 right please! (not 4-left/2-right)
7. options for other keycap sets later?
8. dial is too tall, removable? swappable? jog dial?
9. love the giant esc key, L-shaped enter
10. esc keycap to replace caps would be awesome
11. show me a pic of the full cable/any more details here
12. what are the feet like? foam? rubber? adjustable height?
13. neat website but moves too much, show me a boring gallery of static images somewhere please
14. add clit mouse
15. sustainable material means something to me and makes me more want to buy, really!
16. don't add LEDs, i'd rather save money
17. lmk when it's ergo (cries in carpal tunnel)
1. raised/indented keys will get dirty really fast, an option without would sell me
2. 2-device pairing is great, your competitors have 3 though
3. hot-swap keycaps would be a huge sell
4. nice typography, why isn't the logo in it? take off the logo
5. replace the empty area with home => end
6. 3 modifiers on the left, 3 right please! (not 4-left/2-right)
7. options for other keycap sets later?
8. dial is too tall, removable? swappable? jog dial?
9. love the giant esc key, L-shaped enter
10. esc keycap to replace caps would be awesome
11. show me a pic of the full cable/any more details here
12. what are the feet like? foam? rubber? adjustable height?
13. neat website but moves too much, show me a boring gallery of static images somewhere please
14. add clit mouse
15. sustainable material means something to me and makes me more want to buy, really!
16. don't add LEDs, i'd rather save money
17. lmk when it's ergo (cries in carpal tunnel)
> 14. add clit mouse
I've tried a lot of really nice mech keyboards but this is the one thing that makes me go back to my 'ThinkPad TrackPoint Keyboard II'. It's super nice to never have to leave home row and I definitely feel the relief in terms of RSI.
I've tried a lot of really nice mech keyboards but this is the one thing that makes me go back to my 'ThinkPad TrackPoint Keyboard II'. It's super nice to never have to leave home row and I definitely feel the relief in terms of RSI.
The Tex Shinobi is an excellent upgrade if you've got the cash. I've been using one for a few months now and absolutely adore the typing/tracking experience.
Did not know about Tex, that is actually an amazing suggestion for my use-case.
Considering the embarassing amount of money I spent on other mechanical keyboards this is definitely in the affordable category.
What switches are you using? I am always afraid of the noise level with mech switches but I have used silent reds and they were ok for me noise wise.
Considering the embarassing amount of money I spent on other mechanical keyboards this is definitely in the affordable category.
What switches are you using? I am always afraid of the noise level with mech switches but I have used silent reds and they were ok for me noise wise.
I'm using silent reds on my board, but they're a little rattly. If you like linear switches, I'd probably suggest the regular reds for a uniform, smooth feel. The Bluetooth module is also a nice investment, but certainly not necessary.
Again, stupidly expensive keyboard for what it is. However, I can totally see myself picking up another one as backup in a few years. It really is a layout that feels right.
Again, stupidly expensive keyboard for what it is. However, I can totally see myself picking up another one as backup in a few years. It really is a layout that feels right.
After spending more time and money than on fancy keyboards than I'd like to admit, two of these side by side (an informal 'split' keyboard) is by far the easiest on my wrists and shoulder blades.
2. This one is basically limited by what a 3 position slider (usb/bt1/bt2) can do, the firmware could do up to 5. We could offer an alternative firmware where the slider can do bt1/bt2/bt3, and USB or Bluetooth is automatically determined by whether it's plugged in or not if that helps.
5. That space is needed for the battery, since the board is too slim to place it elsewhere.
5. That space is needed for the battery, since the board is too slim to place it elsewhere.
> 17. lmk when it's ergo (cries in carpal tunnel)
I haven't received it yet but a while ago I backed a split mechanical keyboard on kickstarter that I hope will be good for this. If you want to check it out its the keyboardio model 100.
I haven't received it yet but a while ago I backed a split mechanical keyboard on kickstarter that I hope will be good for this. If you want to check it out its the keyboardio model 100.
Learned a new term today!
> 14. add clit mouse
https://xkcd.com/243/
> 14. add clit mouse
https://xkcd.com/243/
I've just spent so much time right now thinking about the phrase "clit mouse" that I can't remember the official term any more.
And now I'm afraid of what I might automatically say without thinking the next time it happens to come up in conversation.
And now I'm afraid of what I might automatically say without thinking the next time it happens to come up in conversation.
4. the logo is great!
13. website is just fine! nice renders
The logo looks like a designer from today was sent back in time to do the logo for the Apple II. I can recreate it in about 12 seconds going to https://displaay.net/typeface/tobias/ and setting "Altar I" in Tobias Light; it's not even kerned. KERNED!
Website has...character but at some point I just want big pics of the thing
Website has...character but at some point I just want big pics of the thing
That's not the logo it's just a name of the product. Logo is Electronic Materials Office® which i think is rather nice. The fact you can recreate a logo in 12 seconds after you saw it doesn't lower it's qualities - That's the case for majority of logos.
The aesthetics of the product clearly references 70s & 80s electronic product design so i yeah it's on purpose.
I am not sure what you mean by it not being kerned. It clearly is kerned both in the type tester and on the product - it's function of the typeface and it does it pretty well.
> 6. 3 modifiers on the left, 3 right please! (not 4-left/2-right)
One of the first things I look at. Not very easy to find…
One of the first things I look at. Not very easy to find…
HN comments never disappoint
Amazing job! The keyboard looks great. I have a couple of question for you regarding how you built the prototype and how you are planning to manufacture it. I am building something much less ambitious but also a hardware project and could really use some answers to these questions.
* How did you get the CE compliance? Did you literally just fork out a couple of grand and send the prototype to a lab to do it for you?
* How does creating the prototype vs. getting manufacturing going look like? Did you create the aluminium body yourself in your garage, then started getting in touch with Chinese companies to see who could manufacture it? How did you find the contacts for these?
If anyone else has tips for these kinds of things, I'd appreciate them also. The CE compliance in particular is quite daunting.
* How did you get the CE compliance? Did you literally just fork out a couple of grand and send the prototype to a lab to do it for you?
* How does creating the prototype vs. getting manufacturing going look like? Did you create the aluminium body yourself in your garage, then started getting in touch with Chinese companies to see who could manufacture it? How did you find the contacts for these?
If anyone else has tips for these kinds of things, I'd appreciate them also. The CE compliance in particular is quite daunting.
As @yeutterg says below it is possible to self certify CE.
For prototyping the body, I initially 3d printed it, then moved to 1 off cnc milling. For this I mostly used Geomiq (geomiq.com), which farms it out to various countries (mostly china from what I can tell), then they make it and send it to you. I plan to have the case manufactured in the UK — I found contacts for this because I happen to work in the automotive industry in the UK currently. The most difficult part of the case will be anodising which will require a lot of trial and error.
For the plastics, they are all 3d printed for prototyping, and will be injection moulded in the UK for production.
PCBs are printed in China for prototyping. Not sure where the production PCBs will come from yet.
I can give you more detailed info if you'd like.
For prototyping the body, I initially 3d printed it, then moved to 1 off cnc milling. For this I mostly used Geomiq (geomiq.com), which farms it out to various countries (mostly china from what I can tell), then they make it and send it to you. I plan to have the case manufactured in the UK — I found contacts for this because I happen to work in the automotive industry in the UK currently. The most difficult part of the case will be anodising which will require a lot of trial and error.
For the plastics, they are all 3d printed for prototyping, and will be injection moulded in the UK for production.
PCBs are printed in China for prototyping. Not sure where the production PCBs will come from yet.
I can give you more detailed info if you'd like.
That's great! Thanks for the info, Geomiq looks brilliant.
If you could go into more detail on the CE self certification that would be awesome. How did you figure out what testing you need to perform on the product to complete the self certification? The biggest source of confusion for me is this aspect of it. Sure I can self certify that all is good, but how can I be certain that I am not missing something that will get me into legal trouble?
For my own project the biggest source of compliance is related to the ESP-32 that I am using (because of the WiFi/Bluetooth radio). Of course the boards I get from Amazon and Alibaba all have CE written on them, but how can I trust that? I read that the seller has to give CE certificates but they always seem to have a serial number that appears fake (there was some database that you can look them up in and they always fail to show up). I also read that putting together components that are all CE does not mean that the full product can be considered compliant. So in general it seems like a massive undertaking.
If you could go into more detail on the CE self certification that would be awesome. How did you figure out what testing you need to perform on the product to complete the self certification? The biggest source of confusion for me is this aspect of it. Sure I can self certify that all is good, but how can I be certain that I am not missing something that will get me into legal trouble?
For my own project the biggest source of compliance is related to the ESP-32 that I am using (because of the WiFi/Bluetooth radio). Of course the boards I get from Amazon and Alibaba all have CE written on them, but how can I trust that? I read that the seller has to give CE certificates but they always seem to have a serial number that appears fake (there was some database that you can look them up in and they always fail to show up). I also read that putting together components that are all CE does not mean that the full product can be considered compliant. So in general it seems like a massive undertaking.
Some wifi/ble modules come pre-certified. The holyiot 18010 (nRF52840) on the prototype comes with FCC/RoHS certs from the factory, so at least the Bluetooth part is "guaranteed" to be conform, and everything else is so simple, it won't cause any relevant EMI either way (esp. not inside a metal shell).
For many products, including electronics, CE can be self-certified [0]. This is different from other testing and labeling standards, such as UL.
[0]: https://cemarking.net/ce-marking-knowledgebase/ce-self-certi...
[0]: https://cemarking.net/ce-marking-knowledgebase/ce-self-certi...
Thoughts:
- Excellent job
- The font choices are bold. They don’t appeal to me personally, but nice job.
- The sunk/raised key caps look nice but I’m not sure how they would perform in practice.
- I couldn’t tell from the website what the second switch on the site does. Maybe USB/Bluetooth?
- My strong preference is a key command for switching from Bluetooth/USB, and that the keyboard keep both active for instant switching. The only keyboard I’ve found that does this well is the micropython-based M60.
- I’m not a fan of the look of the dial. It sticks up too far and looks like something that could break.
- Excellent job
- The font choices are bold. They don’t appeal to me personally, but nice job.
- The sunk/raised key caps look nice but I’m not sure how they would perform in practice.
- I couldn’t tell from the website what the second switch on the site does. Maybe USB/Bluetooth?
- My strong preference is a key command for switching from Bluetooth/USB, and that the keyboard keep both active for instant switching. The only keyboard I’ve found that does this well is the micropython-based M60.
- I’m not a fan of the look of the dial. It sticks up too far and looks like something that could break.
The font thing is bigger than people might think. As soon as I saw the number row, I had such an immediate and harsh reaction to it that it surprised me.
I almost couldn't believe that was the cause, but when I waited for the device to turn around again, that was definitely it.
I don't even have to look at my fingers often, but I wouldn't be able to stand walking by those numbers on a regular basis. I don't think I've ever had such a visceral response to an aesthetic choice before.
I almost couldn't believe that was the cause, but when I waited for the device to turn around again, that was definitely it.
I don't even have to look at my fingers often, but I wouldn't be able to stand walking by those numbers on a regular basis. I don't think I've ever had such a visceral response to an aesthetic choice before.
I agree - for me I like the keyboard as a whole, but the bits that bug me are:
- the rotary encoder. I don't see what the aim of this is - what's the intended usecase?
- the font on the numbers. I feel like it should match the font used on the other keys instead, which I think I like but it's hard to tell because there's no good actual picture of the keyboard as a whole
- drop the model name on the right. I get that you've made a keyboard that is a design statement, but it would bug me as an owner. Move it to the bottom.
edit: for context, I already have a not dissimilar in terms of concept Keychron K3. That puts page up/down/home/end in that blank space on the right where you've put the model name. It does make the keyboard feel more cluttered, but I do find myself using those keys frequently.
oh, and is it backlit? I am assuming not from the specs, which is unfortunate. an understated, not too bright, white only backlight would be really nice to have on a keyboard like this.
- the rotary encoder. I don't see what the aim of this is - what's the intended usecase?
- the font on the numbers. I feel like it should match the font used on the other keys instead, which I think I like but it's hard to tell because there's no good actual picture of the keyboard as a whole
- drop the model name on the right. I get that you've made a keyboard that is a design statement, but it would bug me as an owner. Move it to the bottom.
edit: for context, I already have a not dissimilar in terms of concept Keychron K3. That puts page up/down/home/end in that blank space on the right where you've put the model name. It does make the keyboard feel more cluttered, but I do find myself using those keys frequently.
oh, and is it backlit? I am assuming not from the specs, which is unfortunate. an understated, not too bright, white only backlight would be really nice to have on a keyboard like this.
> the rotary encoder. I don't see what the aim of this is - what's the intended usecase?
I actually have a separate USB rotary encoder next to my keyboard. Glad to see it integrated into the design. It's like a more comfortable mouse wheel. If you need to scroll a lot (editing audio, for example), the constant "scroll a little, lift finger, scroll a little, lift finger" routine gets old real fast. But if you've got a wide enough knob, you can just spin it around indefinitely in one circular motion.
I actually have a separate USB rotary encoder next to my keyboard. Glad to see it integrated into the design. It's like a more comfortable mouse wheel. If you need to scroll a lot (editing audio, for example), the constant "scroll a little, lift finger, scroll a little, lift finger" routine gets old real fast. But if you've got a wide enough knob, you can just spin it around indefinitely in one circular motion.
One typical use for a rotary encoder is volume control.
The sticking-upwards knob makes the keyboard harder to transport though. It definitely risks to be broken off when put into a backpack.
The sticking-upwards knob makes the keyboard harder to transport though. It definitely risks to be broken off when put into a backpack.
I've had a dual boiler espresso machine (La Spaziale S1) for 10 years that's a typography horror show. There are less than 10 words on the device and they managed to use 4 completely different fonts: their logo font (which I actually like), a squat serif thing for 'S1', an ugly script font, and worst of all for the 'BOILER' and 'ON/OFF' buttons: Comic Sans. It occasionally bothers me but most of the time I'm able to forget about it and enjoy using it.
The egregious use of fonts (at least 4 different?) and the terrible mismatch of the historical Apple font and current product text on back of the keyboard is what brought me to the comments.
I even had to google images of your espresso machine to see what you were talking about. Wow....
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1616/2815/products/M-VIVAL...
I even had to google images of your espresso machine to see what you were talking about. Wow....
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1616/2815/products/M-VIVAL...
Sometimes things have their own personalities and I came to love that and stop obsessing over how I wish they were designed. At the end of the day we’re free to design and build things ourselves. What’s more irking to me is bad functional design that makes awkward to use things.
I agree. The fonts don't bother me so much as the ISO layout does, and even that's kind of a "meh" and something I likely wouldn't care about so much as the otherwise clean styling and the fact it's projected to have some features I like (Bluetooth, low profile, mechanical switches, etc).
Truthfully, from a quick search it appears that the Kailh low profile switches are reasonably easy to find key caps for. I like blank keyboards (uh, don't ask), so I'd probably just buy some blank caps and replace the ones that it comes with. I had to do that with some of the keys on my Das anyway because the stems broke after < 1 year of use, and I've been contemplating PBT key caps for a while.
To each his own! I'd probably buy this, if I were honest.
Truthfully, from a quick search it appears that the Kailh low profile switches are reasonably easy to find key caps for. I like blank keyboards (uh, don't ask), so I'd probably just buy some blank caps and replace the ones that it comes with. I had to do that with some of the keys on my Das anyway because the stems broke after < 1 year of use, and I've been contemplating PBT key caps for a while.
To each his own! I'd probably buy this, if I were honest.
Agreed. The rest of the keyboard looks great, the numbers look too large and childish.
I guess it’s intended to be “iconic”, but, well, being iconic often also means increasing the ratio of people who actively dislike it.
Sure but these types of keyboards are niche and not likely to hit mass production. The font on the number keys reminds me of OP-1, a niche luxury synth with a hefty price tag. It’s a good market to budge in because select people are willing to dispense larger sums of money. I wonder how much this one costs.
It believe it significantly reduces the number of potential buyers for an already-niche product.
PCB designer of the board here - The second switch can toggle USB/Bluetooth profile 1/Bluetooth profile 2 (3 pos slider), but the board runs the open source ZMK firmware and you can reconfigure it however you want. Auto-switching between BT and USB is not used on the current firmware (as it would make the USB slider pos quite useless), but the firmware can absolutely do it.
EDIT: You could for example reconfigure the slider to switch between BT profile 1/2/3, and have the board auto-switch to USB when plugged in. Would take ~2min for me since I know my way around ZMK, bit more if you have to dig into how ZMK works first ofc.
EDIT: You could for example reconfigure the slider to switch between BT profile 1/2/3, and have the board auto-switch to USB when plugged in. Would take ~2min for me since I know my way around ZMK, bit more if you have to dig into how ZMK works first ofc.
Congrats on the design, using ZMK seems like a solid choice.
Did you consider adding a small screen?
I've always hated bluetooth keyboards until I built a Zaphod (which also runs ZMK). And just being able to see battery estimate, whether it is trying to pair, or which device it is currently connected to has made it a much smoother experience.
Did you consider adding a small screen?
I've always hated bluetooth keyboards until I built a Zaphod (which also runs ZMK). And just being able to see battery estimate, whether it is trying to pair, or which device it is currently connected to has made it a much smoother experience.
Why a screen?
"battery estimate, whether it is trying to pair, or which device it is currently connected to"
All of that could be done more elegantly with a row of LEDs like on the side of an old unibody MacBook.
That was such a nice bit of design. I wish Apple still did that.
If It's ZMK, does this mean I could flash in a new configuration to Dvorak? (I know, Dvorak is a bad habit. I'm trying to quit. Really.)
One bit that I find helpful is that the keycaps are all the same height/angle so that I can rearrange them... hopefully..
One bit that I find helpful is that the keycaps are all the same height/angle so that I can rearrange them... hopefully..
Sure thing. We'll release the original firmware configuration alongside with the board, so changing the keymap and recompiling a new firmware wouldn't be a big deal, flashing is easy over USB (and once ZMK studio is ready, you will even be able to live-remap over USB/BT without a recompile/reflash).
I think auto-switch to USB makes a lot more sense.
That’s also how the Apple keyboards, and trackpads work.
I like the idea of indented keys as a clear sensory differentiator. It’s a nice nudge to tell you, “You’re in the right spot.”
Same for the pronounced bump on the home row.
The switch is to choose between one of two Bluetooth devices. I agree the placement of the USB label was confusing there.
Same for the pronounced bump on the home row.
The switch is to choose between one of two Bluetooth devices. I agree the placement of the USB label was confusing there.
True but if this keyboard is your daily driver those sunk keys are going to get dirty quickly and cleaning them well would be more difficult than a simple flat key with a small tactile bump.
Why do you feel a need to emphasize the number keys and the section sign by giving their characters such a disproportionately large size than other keys? And why do you feel a need to deemphasize the function keys by giving them such a small font size? I very much dislike these choices.
I can't really tell if the numbers are in a different font than the rest of the keys, but if they are, I'd dislike that too. Please use a single font for the whole keyboard.
Aesthetics are a major selling point for your keyboard, so I think you need to spend more time and get expert advice about the fonts.
Finally, this is evidently a Mac-oriented keyboard, given how the control keys are labeled. If you plan to target the Windows market, you may wish to provide layouts with Windows-oriented control keys that are labeled as such (namely Ctrl, Alt, and the Windows key, or something that looks like the Windows key.)
I can't really tell if the numbers are in a different font than the rest of the keys, but if they are, I'd dislike that too. Please use a single font for the whole keyboard.
Aesthetics are a major selling point for your keyboard, so I think you need to spend more time and get expert advice about the fonts.
Finally, this is evidently a Mac-oriented keyboard, given how the control keys are labeled. If you plan to target the Windows market, you may wish to provide layouts with Windows-oriented control keys that are labeled as such (namely Ctrl, Alt, and the Windows key, or something that looks like the Windows key.)
> My strong preference is a key command for switching from Bluetooth/USB, and that the keyboard keep both active for instant switching. The only keyboard I’ve found that does this well is the micropython-based M60.
Epomaker's keyboards also do this, at least my SK66 does. Fn+Space switches between wired/BT and Fn+[Z|X|C] switches between the three BT connections. It also flashes blue on the active connection so that you know you've switched into BT mode.
Epomaker's keyboards also do this, at least my SK66 does. Fn+Space switches between wired/BT and Fn+[Z|X|C] switches between the three BT connections. It also flashes blue on the active connection so that you know you've switched into BT mode.
This is a cool project but there needs to be more than a signup page for it to qualify as a Show HN - please see https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html.
We've taken "Show HN" out of the title now.
We've taken "Show HN" out of the title now.
I'm wondering if you shouldn't have different rules for hardware than for software? For instance, what if somebody told him Apple had patented indented buttons and he couldn't use them? I see lots of good improvement ideas here in the comments.
Actually tooling up all these parts will cost him $100,000 before a single person can "try" one - so obviously he needs all the suggestions he can get before that stage.
Or, maybe "Show HN" is just better suited for software?
Actually tooling up all these parts will cost him $100,000 before a single person can "try" one - so obviously he needs all the suggestions he can get before that stage.
Or, maybe "Show HN" is just better suited for software?
The rules are slightly different for hardware in that readers aren't going to to be able to immediately try it like software, some essentially unique builds that nobody (statistically) is going to try come by sometimes, etc. A thing that doesn't yet exist can't be showhn, though.
There's nothing stopping anyone from posting about unfinished things, they just can't be 'Show HN'.
There's nothing stopping anyone from posting about unfinished things, they just can't be 'Show HN'.
We do have different rules for hardware! - that's in the same document: https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html. There should still be more than a signup page though.
Thanks @dang! Sorry about the confusion, I had not read the show hn rules in detail.
I run a subreddit on mobile ergonomics ( http://reddit.com/r/ergomobilecomputers/ ) and spent the past year using raised tablet PC as my only machine, and curating the smaller subset of portable keyboard & computer setups. My advice:
- drop the rotary encoder, it messes up the height for packing the keyboard away.
- a 75% layout (i.e. having fn keys) is okay, but makes it a bit challenging to fit in with a 13" tablet footprint with a magic Trackpad.
- What ergonomic job does this design serve? After a year of using a similar keyboard (Nuphy F1) I find myself seeking ergonomic improvement from a split keyboard or angling (like the Atreus) without becoming too odd of a layout.
- If you're doing a custom design, can you use smaller keys somehow to facilitate room for ergonomics (angled split) while retaining a minimal design? See https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/comments/v0g89d... for some inspiration .
- I like the simple black look! Similar to you I just want a fairly simple look, but focus more on ergonomics.
- drop the rotary encoder, it messes up the height for packing the keyboard away.
- a 75% layout (i.e. having fn keys) is okay, but makes it a bit challenging to fit in with a 13" tablet footprint with a magic Trackpad.
- What ergonomic job does this design serve? After a year of using a similar keyboard (Nuphy F1) I find myself seeking ergonomic improvement from a split keyboard or angling (like the Atreus) without becoming too odd of a layout.
- If you're doing a custom design, can you use smaller keys somehow to facilitate room for ergonomics (angled split) while retaining a minimal design? See https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/comments/v0g89d... for some inspiration .
- I like the simple black look! Similar to you I just want a fairly simple look, but focus more on ergonomics.
> drop the rotary encoder, it messes up the height for packing the keyboard away
If that's really a concern the correct approach would be to make the knob low-profile.
> What ergonomic job does this design serve?
This does not claim to be an "ergonomic" keyboard.
If that's really a concern the correct approach would be to make the knob low-profile.
> What ergonomic job does this design serve?
This does not claim to be an "ergonomic" keyboard.
> messes up the height for packing the keyboard away
You design things for how they are used. If it is a keyboard meant to live out it's life on desk, then why design for how it is packed away? Perhaps if it was advertised as a portable travel keyboard then designing for storage would make sense.
You design things for how they are used. If it is a keyboard meant to live out it's life on desk, then why design for how it is packed away? Perhaps if it was advertised as a portable travel keyboard then designing for storage would make sense.
Well, it is advertised as "ultra-low profile."
I think you are misunderstanding their use of the word ergonomic. They're using it in the literal sense, not the colloquial sense of gimmicky layout keyboards. All keyboards should be ergonomic in the literal sense.
You say gimmicky, I say life-changing. Now, some of them are certainly gimmicks, but split keyboards make it so much more comfortable to type that for trips of more than a day or two where I think I might have to type, I have brought my keyboard with me. (And I'd love a low profile travel version of the Kenesis Freestyle Edge, for those keyboard types who are looking for differentiating features.)
Yep. Ive spent a lot of time looking at the keyboard space and part of the reason i started the subreddit was that there werent many projects, let alone things I could just buy off the shelf, that were fairly portable and ergonomic.
Theres already a number of travel-friendly high end standard layout keyboards (Ive used the Nuphy f1 for the past year which is nice (and was essential to my portable raised tablet setup), but I miss my Kinesis Freestyle split keyboard that was great but impractical to travel with)
Theres already a number of travel-friendly high end standard layout keyboards (Ive used the Nuphy f1 for the past year which is nice (and was essential to my portable raised tablet setup), but I miss my Kinesis Freestyle split keyboard that was great but impractical to travel with)
> This does not claim to be an "ergonomic" keyboard.
I'm arguing the market already has a number of minimalist standard layout keyboards (the Nuphy lineup, even major brands like Logitech). Making something ergonomic and portable would be an interesting differentiator. The Atreus ( https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus ) is a nice example but gets a bit too minimal whatwith not having a number row.
I'm arguing the market already has a number of minimalist standard layout keyboards (the Nuphy lineup, even major brands like Logitech). Making something ergonomic and portable would be an interesting differentiator. The Atreus ( https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus ) is a nice example but gets a bit too minimal whatwith not having a number row.
> drop the rotary encoder, it messes up the height for packing the keyboard away.
No please don't. I'm so glad this person designed this keyboard during the lock down presumably alone in a basement somewhere and not by a design committee.
No please don't. I'm so glad this person designed this keyboard during the lock down presumably alone in a basement somewhere and not by a design committee.
For the rotary encoder, personally I'd prefer a low profile knob ( like https://shop.dailycraft.jp/en/products/encoder_lowprofile_kn... ), I find them more satisfyingly to use, and they don't get in the way of being thrown in a bag.
I wonder if it'd be possible to offer different key caps to allow for user preference for this and font choices.
I wonder if it'd be possible to offer different key caps to allow for user preference for this and font choices.
A roller-style rotary encoder would work better. And perhaps be a better ergnonomic fit for what I assume is its primary use case, scrolling.
Having had a fair bit of difficulty keeping my mouse wheel clean, roller style controls would probably similarly accumulate crud. I'd rather have the knob.
I use the one on my Das Keyboard as a volume knob, it's pretty handy
Rotary encoder is a cool idea but something thinner with a “key” would be better perhaps.
The biggest disadvantage to switching to a split keyboard is seeing neat things like this come out, and then hearing my wrists say "it's too bad we're never letting you go back." I even have to travel with the damn thing now, if I'm planning on doing any serious coding...
It's the same here. As much as I'd love to go and use a keyboard like the one shown here, my split ortholinear board has done my wrists and shoulders a world of good. It's so much more comfortable than using any other standard keyboard.
Which keyboard are you using?
I use a Let's Split kit that I assembled with Momoka Frog switches (linear, ~55g).
https://imgur.com/a/dqjyB3O
https://imgur.com/a/dqjyB3O
Kinesis Freestyle Pro is a decent option, although not cheap. You can get tilt brackets for it, which relieve you from having to rotate your wrists quite as far.
I use a moonlander and am never going back
Back to what tho? That could change the meaning a lot :)
Same.
I was about to say there are so many projects like this maybe in the next decade or two the split community will grow and have more nice custom keyboards.
But who am I kidding, I'm all in on the kinesis advantage. A couple years ago I gave the Ergodox EZ a good solid try, but it just didn't jive with me, so I think I'm stuck (in a good place).
I was about to say there are so many projects like this maybe in the next decade or two the split community will grow and have more nice custom keyboards.
But who am I kidding, I'm all in on the kinesis advantage. A couple years ago I gave the Ergodox EZ a good solid try, but it just didn't jive with me, so I think I'm stuck (in a good place).
Same. I'd love to see somebody like OP riff on something the Atreus [1] to end up with something beautiful, practical, and ergonomic.
[1] https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus
[1] https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus
I'll never buy non-split keyboard, but still fine to use it sometimes.
I feel your pain. I would pay a lot of money for a portable low profile split kb with good trackball. Maintaining my own is fun but a bit onerous
What if you learn to type 50% less? Incidentally you might discover that you're a better programmer as a result too. I have a simple rule I refuse to type any word longer than 3 characters. Copy and paste is your friend.
Very pretty. I'm tempted.
Will it work properly on Linux via bluetooth? E.g. I have a very nice mechanical keyboard from Keychron but over bluetooth it does something weird so that a hack [1] to use it in Mac mode is necessary and some key combos still don't work right for me.
On a similar note, if its firmware needs an update will I be able to do that from Linux?
It's a hard life being a Windows/Mac hater :D
[1] https://gist.github.com/andrebrait/961cefe730f4a2c41f57911e6...
Will it work properly on Linux via bluetooth? E.g. I have a very nice mechanical keyboard from Keychron but over bluetooth it does something weird so that a hack [1] to use it in Mac mode is necessary and some key combos still don't work right for me.
On a similar note, if its firmware needs an update will I be able to do that from Linux?
It's a hard life being a Windows/Mac hater :D
[1] https://gist.github.com/andrebrait/961cefe730f4a2c41f57911e6...
I am the person who designed the PCB for the current prototype. It's running the open source ZMK firmware, and that one works flawlessly on Linux. I had a prototype connected to my notebook (T450s, Intel AC9260 wifi chip, Arch Linux) already and did not encounter any issues, and since it's open source and all configs are public, adapting the keymap to your needs and maybe get rid of some mac-specific things wouldn't be a problem.
In fact we are considering a software toggle (e.g. FN + ESC or maybe more complicated to avoid accidentally toggling it) that has a "Win/Linux" and "macOS" mode, but I didn't get around testing that yet.
In fact we are considering a software toggle (e.g. FN + ESC or maybe more complicated to avoid accidentally toggling it) that has a "Win/Linux" and "macOS" mode, but I didn't get around testing that yet.
> but over bluetooth it does something weird so that a hack [1] to use it in Mac mode is necessary and some key combos still don't work right for me.
I have one too and it does it over USB as well. Though keyboard shortcuts work fine for me, USB or not.
I have one too and it does it over USB as well. Though keyboard shortcuts work fine for me, USB or not.
Which Keychron is that? I have a K2 which works well for me in "mac mode", both wired and USB.
The only gripe I have with it is that the Fn key is "fake", as in it doesn't send any signal by itself, so it can't be remapped.
The only gripe I have with it is that the Fn key is "fake", as in it doesn't send any signal by itself, so it can't be remapped.
I have a K2 as well. I set it in Windows/Android mode to use with my Linux box (Mac just changes the modifier keys afaict). The F-keys default to the FN row, not the F1-12. You can change that with a command I completely forgot and just copied once to a startup script.
> The F-keys default to the FN row, not the F1-12. You can change that with a command I completely forgot and just copied once to a startup script.
> cat /etc/modprobe.d/hid_apple.conf
options hid_apple fnmode=0
I just looked in my startup and this is what I have:
echo 0 | doas tee /sys/module/hid_apple/parameters/fnmode
I had a similar problem with the Tecurs KB510 I got at work. The only way I found to type F1-F12 keys on Linux was to set up a hack with kbct [0] and the Super key... until I tried the configuration described in the gist you linked. Thanks a lot for that !
[0] https://github.com/samvel1024/kbct
[0] https://github.com/samvel1024/kbct
I want to hear more about what you expect the rotary encoder to be used for. You clearly put a lot of thought into making it happen, so - why? I feel like there must be some interesting use cases, but I'm drawing a blank.
Volume, Zoom, Digital Audio Production knobs, Video/Photoshop timeline or level controls, Gaming, Productivity macro (context switching, app switching, Brightness
Anything that benefits from fine tuned 'back and forth' adjustments that settle on a value in a range.
It's often more satisfying to have 'one motion' control of these functions rather than repeated 'up down' clicks to achieve a desired range.
With a rotary, you can choose the velocity of the adjustment which you cannot do with discrete 'up and down' clicks other than through a 'hold' algorithm or rapid clicking.
Anything that benefits from fine tuned 'back and forth' adjustments that settle on a value in a range.
It's often more satisfying to have 'one motion' control of these functions rather than repeated 'up down' clicks to achieve a desired range.
With a rotary, you can choose the velocity of the adjustment which you cannot do with discrete 'up and down' clicks other than through a 'hold' algorithm or rapid clicking.
Yep, imagine replacing a guitar's whammy bar with a rotary jog dial; not the same
Oh damn. my take-way is that my keyboard needs a whammy bar now.
I hope that encoder's knob is easily removable because it's a large protrusion that will get in the way of slipping the keyboard into narrow spaces. Large coat pockets, outer pockets on backpacks, drawers, bookshelves, ...
It looks like the kind of thing that might get damaged. Imagine it getting stuck when opening a drawer, which someone unwittingly tries to overcome with force.
It looks like the kind of thing that might get damaged. Imagine it getting stuck when opening a drawer, which someone unwittingly tries to overcome with force.
A rotary encoder can be mapped to the mouse wheel for scrolling documents, reducing the need to move the hand to the mouse to perform that.
As an aside, if that sounds interesting, you can do this with some of the cheap USB volume knobs available from Amazon, etc. that have a configuration menu, e.g. https://hackaday.com/2022/01/20/setup-menu-uses-text-editor-...
As an aside, if that sounds interesting, you can do this with some of the cheap USB volume knobs available from Amazon, etc. that have a configuration menu, e.g. https://hackaday.com/2022/01/20/setup-menu-uses-text-editor-...
I bought one exactly like that, used AutoHotKey to configure it for various productivity applications. By default it mimics my mouse wheel, for more comfortable scrolling.
I don't get it. My minimal keyboards are for travel/mobile set ups. The whole point is to be able to throw it into a bag. This knob makes that impossible.
I’m sure I’d use it as a physical volume knob
I would love to have such a knob be mapped to speed up or slow down/rewind any video or podcast I'm watching or editing on the fly. Unfortunately no software would ever support this, someone would have had to standardized it 20 years ago first.
If OP reads this
Switch out that selector switch for a knob with an indent. Its just annoying and bad feeling to free spin a selector switch like that. For stuff like scrolling and volume adjust, you want to be able to do it effortlessly with one finger.
Switch out that selector switch for a knob with an indent. Its just annoying and bad feeling to free spin a selector switch like that. For stuff like scrolling and volume adjust, you want to be able to do it effortlessly with one finger.
Example of mentioned knob?
Seems they are called "scrubber knobs" if you google it.
Practical examples: Scrolling a soundwave in Audacity. Scrolling the sequencer in a DAW like FL Studio. Binding it to a MIDI control to play live music. Rotating a 3D model.
What about adjusting the volume? If you have ever been in a car you can instantly relate to a knob like that.
Looks really nice BUT:
There's a split between what people online post pics of on fancy desktop setups and what people prefer to use as their daily driver. Minimal keyboards are for minimalists, and people who like to show of their setups. Just like desktop vanity posts typically have speakers, yet everyone uses headphones.
Anecdotally there was a post recently on some PC subreddit asking what keyboard people preferred, and the overwhelming support was for 100%+ keyboards. Only people who didn't WFH much, or didn't have jobs involving any data entry at all could do without a numpad.
So, make a full version? People might think they're a bit ugly, but they're popular despite people being less willing to show off a massive keyboard.
You're right about the damn 'gamer' look though. The only good thing about the gamer look is that I will trust it has decent switches in it.
There's a split between what people online post pics of on fancy desktop setups and what people prefer to use as their daily driver. Minimal keyboards are for minimalists, and people who like to show of their setups. Just like desktop vanity posts typically have speakers, yet everyone uses headphones.
Anecdotally there was a post recently on some PC subreddit asking what keyboard people preferred, and the overwhelming support was for 100%+ keyboards. Only people who didn't WFH much, or didn't have jobs involving any data entry at all could do without a numpad.
So, make a full version? People might think they're a bit ugly, but they're popular despite people being less willing to show off a massive keyboard.
You're right about the damn 'gamer' look though. The only good thing about the gamer look is that I will trust it has decent switches in it.
> Only people who didn't WFH much, or didn't have jobs involving any data entry at all could do without a numpad.
I'm (mostly) a software dev for 15+ years and I've never felt the need for a numpad. I'm curious now - have I been really lucky that none of my gigs have ever involved any substantial numerical data entry? Do other devs have to constantly do that so it justifies the larger keyboard (which is off-center and is awkward to use on a laptop)?
From personal experience, I'd assume that jobs that require non-trivial amount of numerical data entry are <1% of total jobs that require a keyboard. Am I totally wrong here and living in a bubble?
(I've been 100% WFH for the past 5 years and I'm not sure how that related to the numpad / no nupad discussion?)
I'm (mostly) a software dev for 15+ years and I've never felt the need for a numpad. I'm curious now - have I been really lucky that none of my gigs have ever involved any substantial numerical data entry? Do other devs have to constantly do that so it justifies the larger keyboard (which is off-center and is awkward to use on a laptop)?
From personal experience, I'd assume that jobs that require non-trivial amount of numerical data entry are <1% of total jobs that require a keyboard. Am I totally wrong here and living in a bubble?
(I've been 100% WFH for the past 5 years and I'm not sure how that related to the numpad / no nupad discussion?)
I do technical marketing (SEO, ads, analytics) and if I am ever in a spreadsheet I gravitate to the numpad for any numerical data entry. It's like touch-typing, superior way of doing it once you've learnt. No need to use shift for simple calculations, one-handed number typing, using my left hand to tab into the next cell, etc.
Customer services teams take down phone numbers and enter financial info better with a numpad. Finance teams use numpads constantly.
WFH is just about the people more likely to develop a preference because they're often buying their own desktop that they then use for work because it's more comfortable than a laptop. Working in an office you're likelier to use what's provided. Personally I use a keyboard of my own at the office and at home on WFH days. Both with numpads. Perhaps 1% of my day might involve the numpad but I'm not going to ditch the convenience for vanity.
Customer services teams take down phone numbers and enter financial info better with a numpad. Finance teams use numpads constantly.
WFH is just about the people more likely to develop a preference because they're often buying their own desktop that they then use for work because it's more comfortable than a laptop. Working in an office you're likelier to use what's provided. Personally I use a keyboard of my own at the office and at home on WFH days. Both with numpads. Perhaps 1% of my day might involve the numpad but I'm not going to ditch the convenience for vanity.
> Perhaps 1% of my day might involve the numpad but I'm not going to ditch the convenience for vanity.
I think the point is that the numpad isn't free if you use the mouse with the right hand. It takes space on your desk, between the actual keyboard and the mouse. This stresses the joints a bit more. You either have to grab the mouse way out to the right, or type with your hands to the left.
So if you only use the numpad "1% of your day", I'd say there are reasonable reasons, outside of vanity, for preferring a keyboard without the numpad.
Sure, if you mainly use the mouse and the keyboard single-handedly (say, like a gamer would), the numpad probably doesn't bother you.
I'm not particularly into "vanity shots" of my desk, but I absolutely curse the full-size keyboard whenever I have to use one.
I think the point is that the numpad isn't free if you use the mouse with the right hand. It takes space on your desk, between the actual keyboard and the mouse. This stresses the joints a bit more. You either have to grab the mouse way out to the right, or type with your hands to the left.
So if you only use the numpad "1% of your day", I'd say there are reasonable reasons, outside of vanity, for preferring a keyboard without the numpad.
Sure, if you mainly use the mouse and the keyboard single-handedly (say, like a gamer would), the numpad probably doesn't bother you.
I'm not particularly into "vanity shots" of my desk, but I absolutely curse the full-size keyboard whenever I have to use one.
Never really noticed the extra distance but I suppose that's the point - it's all subjective experience. I'm just pointing out that smaller keyboards get the spotlight so often because they're different and not the default. They are more visually appealing for sure, but that extra attention they get doesn't mean that a full keyboard should be ignored either.
The OP is asking for feedback on their product launch. For me, a full keyboard user, that was to say they should consider a full keyboard at launch cos they're super common, and often, preferred. In no way am I trying to diminish other people's preferences for smaller keyboards.
The OP is asking for feedback on their product launch. For me, a full keyboard user, that was to say they should consider a full keyboard at launch cos they're super common, and often, preferred. In no way am I trying to diminish other people's preferences for smaller keyboards.
Ergonomics is not vanity. Most 100% keyboards don't allow you to have one hand on the keyboard and one on the mouse with good posture, which I'm sure for the average user is a more common thing to do than entering long strings of numbers.
One of my first jobs involved assessing desktop users for ergonomic posture when using video display units (PCs). I get that a big keyboard could splay your arms out a bit at angles that aren't ergonomic but practically speaking that'd have to be a very big keyboard.
When someone moves from keyboard to mouse they should be moving from their elbow joint, to protect their wrists. If anything a numpad encourages this as your resting dominant hand position will be left of the numpad (if right handed, for left hand users this won't be true). So you can't bend your wrist to reach your mouse from that position, you have to move your whole arm - which is good.
VDU guidelines in the UK at least don't specify a bad angle for elbows, just wrist bending (up, down, and sideways) because it's not a common scope for elbows to be bending that far for common tasks at a desk. Certainly a full size keyboard and mouse don't push it that far.
So I don't see the ergonomic issue there. I'm sitting at a full size keyboard with my mouse in hand and my posture is just fine. I could even space them out more and be comfortable.
Obviously mileage varies, and subjectively maybe a smaller person might have a smaller desk footprint. I don't want to go as far as to disregard someone else's experience but it really does seem far fetched.
Nothing wrong with liking small keyboards for other reasons though, like vanity, neatness, tidying away easily, portability, not needing a numpad, etc.
When someone moves from keyboard to mouse they should be moving from their elbow joint, to protect their wrists. If anything a numpad encourages this as your resting dominant hand position will be left of the numpad (if right handed, for left hand users this won't be true). So you can't bend your wrist to reach your mouse from that position, you have to move your whole arm - which is good.
VDU guidelines in the UK at least don't specify a bad angle for elbows, just wrist bending (up, down, and sideways) because it's not a common scope for elbows to be bending that far for common tasks at a desk. Certainly a full size keyboard and mouse don't push it that far.
So I don't see the ergonomic issue there. I'm sitting at a full size keyboard with my mouse in hand and my posture is just fine. I could even space them out more and be comfortable.
Obviously mileage varies, and subjectively maybe a smaller person might have a smaller desk footprint. I don't want to go as far as to disregard someone else's experience but it really does seem far fetched.
Nothing wrong with liking small keyboards for other reasons though, like vanity, neatness, tidying away easily, portability, not needing a numpad, etc.
Entering TOTP codes, bank accounts, spreadsheeting is much more convenient on a 3x3 grid than a row of numbers. It's also nice to have a +- button in the rightmost column.
That's the reason why I have a numpad layer on my 46 key split ortholinear keyboard.
Your use case doesn't mean you need a physically separate set of keys for this.
Your use case doesn't mean you need a physically separate set of keys for this.
I guess we are at the opposite sides of the spectrum, I like to have a lot of buttons in front of me :) I just got this delivered:
https://www.thermaltake.com/level-20-rgb-titanium-gaming-key...
https://www.thermaltake.com/level-20-rgb-titanium-gaming-key...
I reversed the numeric row of my keyboard layout so that the symbols are typed without the shift key and the numerals use the shift key. With that arrangement, a number pad is important for any meaningful numeric input.
But as a programmer, I can't stress enough how valuable it is to type symbols without constantly reaching for the shift key. "Programmer Dvorak" does this as well, but then you have to learn a new arrangement of symbols and deal with numerals that aren't in numerical order.
But as a programmer, I can't stress enough how valuable it is to type symbols without constantly reaching for the shift key. "Programmer Dvorak" does this as well, but then you have to learn a new arrangement of symbols and deal with numerals that aren't in numerical order.
The old Italian keyboard (up to the early 80s) had shifted number over symbols. Can't remember if caps lock worked on numbers too.
I've a notion that gamers like the numpad? I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
I once worked for a company making keyboard training software for bank data entry staff so I still use it if I have it (having become extremely fast using it) but I can't say I miss it when it's not there and as a 99% development user I prefer and own a mechanical keyboard without it.
I once worked for a company making keyboard training software for bank data entry staff so I still use it if I have it (having become extremely fast using it) but I can't say I miss it when it's not there and as a 99% development user I prefer and own a mechanical keyboard without it.
You are not living in a bubble, you are a developer. It seems that we use the number row and people making a living with Excel use the number pad.
A friend of mine confirmed that were she works everybody use the number pad except developers. She can't understand why they are doing that. I think we don't type numbers much. The times of BASIC with mandatory line numbers are very very far away.
Prediction to test my theory: writers and journalists use the number row too.
A friend of mine confirmed that were she works everybody use the number pad except developers. She can't understand why they are doing that. I think we don't type numbers much. The times of BASIC with mandatory line numbers are very very far away.
Prediction to test my theory: writers and journalists use the number row too.
At the very least, the numeric keyboard should be in the center, so the symmetry is not broken.
I disagree, I've been using laptop, or tenkeyless, or currently a 65-key optical mechanical keyboard, for forever. I almost never use the numpad, or pgup/home etc keys (vim user), and rarely function keys, so they just get in the way.
Keyboards are quite a personal thing, I think there's room for many different designs.
Keyboards are quite a personal thing, I think there's room for many different designs.
That's my whole point?
Add another design, because it's personal, and just the vocal minority that show off their sleek minimalist tenkeyless keyboards.
I wouldn't suggest adding too many designs at launch though, that's obviously unsustainable. But eventually sure. I'd just start with a minimal and a 100%. To cover the core bases.
Add another design, because it's personal, and just the vocal minority that show off their sleek minimalist tenkeyless keyboards.
I wouldn't suggest adding too many designs at launch though, that's obviously unsustainable. But eventually sure. I'd just start with a minimal and a 100%. To cover the core bases.
I don't know, if you're going to start a new product company with a 'mission', it's not a bad debut to offer just a single product that embodies that mission.
This keyboard definitely has it's own style. I'm not sure I agree with it all, actually I don't, but it seems to know what it wants to be.
This keyboard definitely has it's own style. I'm not sure I agree with it all, actually I don't, but it seems to know what it wants to be.
I've done product research on this when I was considering doing a project like this keyboard, and the results were very conclusive: 100% keyboards are pretty niche. The audience for that project, like this one, was basically high end consumers. The majority of respondents used a laptop keyboard most of the time. For those who had an external keyboard, 100% was behind 60%, 65%, and TKL. A very large portion of those who said they had a 100% noted that they don't use their numpad in a followup question. Obviously my sample probably had some biases toward keyboard enthusiasts, but that's the target audience for this sort of thing! If you went true general public I think you'd find that an overwhelming majority just use a laptop keyboard, or whatever their company gave them without caring about layout.
My take? 100%s are absolutely crucial for a very small slice of people. They are made to seem more popular than they are because they are the "safest" layout. Someone who needs a 100% can't use a 60%. Someone who prefers 60% can totally use a 100%. So companies make/give out 100%s, and they end up getting used a lot because of that.
My take? 100%s are absolutely crucial for a very small slice of people. They are made to seem more popular than they are because they are the "safest" layout. Someone who needs a 100% can't use a 60%. Someone who prefers 60% can totally use a 100%. So companies make/give out 100%s, and they end up getting used a lot because of that.
Eh disagree. The most I have probably used a number pad is for playing Alpha Centauri. It's pretty unnecessary IMO unless all you do is a lot of data entry which is probably a minority of jobs. I don't like the extra effort of moving off home row to hit the number pad. Only recently with my Kinesis Advantage have I really started to use it and that doesn't have a real numpad at all.
I would like a full keyboard that has the numeric keyboard on the left side.
That way, my mouse would be closer to the action.
I have no idea why this is not a common option.
I use the numeric keyboard only for a couple of games that use it to control the camera, and that's pretty much it.
Otherwise, the numeric keyboard just uses desktop space and causes my mouse to be further away from my hand, when typing.
That way, my mouse would be closer to the action.
I have no idea why this is not a common option.
I use the numeric keyboard only for a couple of games that use it to control the camera, and that's pretty much it.
Otherwise, the numeric keyboard just uses desktop space and causes my mouse to be further away from my hand, when typing.
This sounds smart. Even a modular one where you can relocate it could be interesting.
I don't notice the extra distance, but I think that's more to do with my desks being wide enough for it to not come up. Or maybe cos I'm lanky!
I'd definitely try out a left hand numpad given the option.
I don't notice the extra distance, but I think that's more to do with my desks being wide enough for it to not come up. Or maybe cos I'm lanky!
I'd definitely try out a left hand numpad given the option.
Agree 100%. I actually tried to go without a numpad on a new keyboard. Couldn't make it a week before I returned it. Up to that point I didn't realize how much I used it on a daily basis.
I can't help but think how inefficient a programmer would be using the standard number keys. Reminds me of my dad hunting and pecking with his index finger.
I can't help but think how inefficient a programmer would be using the standard number keys. Reminds me of my dad hunting and pecking with his index finger.
> I can't help but think how inefficient a programmer would be using the standard number keys.
Why? I don't use the number keys that often for programming. Hell, my main job is more on the sysadmin side of things, so I'd expect to type numbers more frequently than a standard programmer (think IPs and such), yet I still don't miss the numpad, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't make lose any noticeable amout of time.
Why? I don't use the number keys that often for programming. Hell, my main job is more on the sysadmin side of things, so I'd expect to type numbers more frequently than a standard programmer (think IPs and such), yet I still don't miss the numpad, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't make lose any noticeable amout of time.
Funnily enough the only people I've seen using a fullsize keyboard for work are those using the company provided ones. Anyone who had their own had a TKL, or smaller.
I own a fullsize mechanical keyboard which I (used to) use for my personal computer, but for work I use a TKL. The only reason I have even had a fullsize at home was for Blender
I own a fullsize mechanical keyboard which I (used to) use for my personal computer, but for work I use a TKL. The only reason I have even had a fullsize at home was for Blender
overwhelming support was for 100%+ keyboards
From your mouth to God's ear.
Love my MacBook, but for my purposes (writing code commercially for 30+ years), the bigger the keyboard, the better. Especially once it's fully configured with macros.
If the keyboard enthusiast community ever brings back reasonably-priced keyboard with the second row of function keys that are easily programmable, I'll buy one. 3270's were awesome.
From your mouth to God's ear.
Love my MacBook, but for my purposes (writing code commercially for 30+ years), the bigger the keyboard, the better. Especially once it's fully configured with macros.
If the keyboard enthusiast community ever brings back reasonably-priced keyboard with the second row of function keys that are easily programmable, I'll buy one. 3270's were awesome.
I switched to keyboards without number pads about 20 years ago, when I realised that I had never used them and they were in the way of where the mouse should be. I've been able to touch-type numbers since I was in school, and I've never had to enter a long enough list of numbers that switching to the number pad was necessary.
I'm full time remote and I use my 35% (or whatever) minimal keyboard every day. I can throw it in my bag, go around the house, neighborhood, world and have a decent set of keys.
Not like there aren't a lot of "Instagram keyboards" out there but a smaller keyboard leaves more room on the desk for snacks.
Not like there aren't a lot of "Instagram keyboards" out there but a smaller keyboard leaves more room on the desk for snacks.
> There's a split between what people online post pics of on fancy desktop setups and what people prefer to use as their daily driver.
I've been using the HHKB for over a year now as my "daily driver" and I absolutely love it:
* I like the feeling of the keys, and also the compactness of the keyboard layout
* I like that it connects to both my work & personal laptops over bluetooth, and I can switch between them with a single key chord
* I like that I can carry the keyboard with me to the office, and that it was simple for me to take it with me on my recent trip to Australia, so I have my preferred keyboard feeling / layout wherever I go.
Before that I was using a Unicomp Model M as my "daily driver", and while I liked it, I don't really miss the extra keys.
I've been using the HHKB for over a year now as my "daily driver" and I absolutely love it:
* I like the feeling of the keys, and also the compactness of the keyboard layout
* I like that it connects to both my work & personal laptops over bluetooth, and I can switch between them with a single key chord
* I like that I can carry the keyboard with me to the office, and that it was simple for me to take it with me on my recent trip to Australia, so I have my preferred keyboard feeling / layout wherever I go.
Before that I was using a Unicomp Model M as my "daily driver", and while I liked it, I don't really miss the extra keys.
I'm happy for you? Please don't think I was saying that nobody wants a small keyboard at home. I'm just saying that small keyboards get more attention because they look sleeker, and since they're a step from the default it catches people's attention more.
The vanity pic of a home desktop setup is one thing, what people use at home is another. That first context is dominated by small keyboards because it looks good for the pic. The second context is more about function, and whilst numpads are better for function I'm not going as far to say that they dominate - I don't know.
I'm just asking the OP to consider covering both options, as someone who prefers a numpad for its extra functionality. I'm not saying they should ditch the small model - I think it is great.
The vanity pic of a home desktop setup is one thing, what people use at home is another. That first context is dominated by small keyboards because it looks good for the pic. The second context is more about function, and whilst numpads are better for function I'm not going as far to say that they dominate - I don't know.
I'm just asking the OP to consider covering both options, as someone who prefers a numpad for its extra functionality. I'm not saying they should ditch the small model - I think it is great.
IMHO, the numeric keyboard is bad for ergonomics because I have to move the mouse to the far right, at a very uncomfortable angle. And I already have numbers close to the home row anyway.
I guess for data entry or numeric-intense jobs it does make sense, but not for the rest of us.
I guess for data entry or numeric-intense jobs it does make sense, but not for the rest of us.
> "There's a split between what people online post pics of on fancy desktop setups and what people prefer to use as their daily driver."
I see people use Mac and Windows laptop keyboards in professional capacity day in and day out without difficulty. Aside from that, separate USB numeric keypads are still available for those who really feel the need.
Frankly, I can't even recall anytime in the last decade I touched the numeric keypad even in environments where I had a 100% keyboard.
I see people use Mac and Windows laptop keyboards in professional capacity day in and day out without difficulty. Aside from that, separate USB numeric keypads are still available for those who really feel the need.
Frankly, I can't even recall anytime in the last decade I touched the numeric keypad even in environments where I had a 100% keyboard.
Mostly agree (I don't like reducing keys movement like 50% keyboard) but a counterpoint: I never want a tenkey on the right of the keyboard. It makes my mouse (trackball) located far away. Even if I need to type much numbers, I'll put dedicated tenkey on the left of the keyboard (or the center of the split keyboard). For who really want a tenkey, I wonder what's wrong with dedicated USB tenkey.
It would be nice if there was a standard for snap-on numpads, or even the cursor-plus-six-key-block-column, to be connected to either side of a keyboard.
First off, I love the design. I signed up for updates, etc.
To me, this is missing an opportunity to be ortholinear - a grid instead of the standard finger straining zigzag pattern. That’s an ergonomic feature you can fit in a low profile keyboard. I think the grid would harmonize quite well with your design aesthetic while adding another feature on top of “pretty and slim”.
I am the sort of person who buys every vaguely ergonomic portable keyboard though, looking for one that has a good balance of portable and ergonomic while still being usable. I’m waiting on the new Kenisis Advantage 360, and I have a Atreus around here in its carrying case. I found the Atreus too tricky to type on :-(.
On other subject, have you thought about a case or cover for the “toss in bag” use case? What about a pointing device like a trackpad area, or touch sensitive keys overall?
My one other critique outside ortholinear is that the large PRODUCT NAME on top of the product is a little much. Maybe tone that down?
To me, this is missing an opportunity to be ortholinear - a grid instead of the standard finger straining zigzag pattern. That’s an ergonomic feature you can fit in a low profile keyboard. I think the grid would harmonize quite well with your design aesthetic while adding another feature on top of “pretty and slim”.
I am the sort of person who buys every vaguely ergonomic portable keyboard though, looking for one that has a good balance of portable and ergonomic while still being usable. I’m waiting on the new Kenisis Advantage 360, and I have a Atreus around here in its carrying case. I found the Atreus too tricky to type on :-(.
On other subject, have you thought about a case or cover for the “toss in bag” use case? What about a pointing device like a trackpad area, or touch sensitive keys overall?
My one other critique outside ortholinear is that the large PRODUCT NAME on top of the product is a little much. Maybe tone that down?
I don’t agree on the ortholinear point, at least for the v1 product. The fact is you are cutting out a lot of people by going with a non-standard layout. This is the same point made by Dygma to explain why they didn’t go down that route.
Yes, ortholinear is the way.. add a slight split for ergonomics and I will buy one instantly. I have the atreus as well and use it as my daily driver (removed 6 of the keys (3 bottom left & right) and taped over the holes.). With QMK, combo keys, it's a great experience but I miss the low profile keybed sometimes.
I don't think one realizes until you try an ortholinear keyboard with some ergonomic split just how uncomfortable the angled/rectangular style keyboards are. My hands, wrists and forearms have never felt better, as someone who is typing 8+ hours a day.
I don't think one realizes until you try an ortholinear keyboard with some ergonomic split just how uncomfortable the angled/rectangular style keyboards are. My hands, wrists and forearms have never felt better, as someone who is typing 8+ hours a day.
+1 for ortholinear
There are so few choices for low profile standard layout keyboards with nice keycaps, and you ortholinear fans insist on having yet another? Come on.
> the large PRODUCT NAME on top of the product is a little much
if OP's on the fence, remember that this year's MacBooks don't have white lettering that says "MacBook" below the screen anymore. You don't need an icon if you are one :)
if OP's on the fence, remember that this year's MacBooks don't have white lettering that says "MacBook" below the screen anymore. You don't need an icon if you are one :)
I don’t personally like ortholinear boards, I think they only solve half of the problem. Columnar stagger is the way to go, no more claw hand pose.
Really wish people remembered to put USB pass-through on their keyboards though. If I need a small form factor keyboard, it's gonna be a good bet the number of USB ports available is at a premium and chaining will make life so much better. Depending on what I'm doing, I'm going to need the zero latency of a cable (like using my keyboard with FL studio to make some music, for which Bluetooth latency -even the latest gen- is still way too high)
I just upgraded from kinesis advantage to 2 and was bummed they removed the USB ports. My mouse got better wireless connection when plugged into keyboard than into laptop sitting back of desk.
A good point, but doesn't really apply to a bluetooth keyboard.
It does when it's also possible to use as a corded keyboard though. I'm not going to use Bluetooth if I have the option to cable (in part because "why would I use wireless when I don't need to" but mostly because I'm also going to use it as a fake piano and even the latest generation of Bluetooth still has unacceptably high latency for virtual instrument feedback)
I still like a wired mouse. This would be nice.
Looks awesome. Hope the rotary encoder is removable as it feels like that would defeat the purpose of a low profile keyboard that I can throw into my backpack when I'm on the move.
Make it removable and make a little cubby at the back for it to clip into so it doesn't stick out or get lost.
This looks super cool.
1) Do you have an estimate for cost and date it will ship?
2) What's the deal with the rotary encoder? How will it be used by default? How will we remap it, etc.?
Edit:
3) I would really like to have Home, Insert, and End keys. I'm not sure that's worth a change in the keyboard layout, but consider this: having three or four assignable keys. You can sell keycaps for them.
4) I would use this because I carry around a lot of stuff. Either having a low-profile keycap for the rotary encoder, or having some way to easily take it off or collapse it down would be really helpful.
1) Do you have an estimate for cost and date it will ship?
2) What's the deal with the rotary encoder? How will it be used by default? How will we remap it, etc.?
Edit:
3) I would really like to have Home, Insert, and End keys. I'm not sure that's worth a change in the keyboard layout, but consider this: having three or four assignable keys. You can sell keycaps for them.
4) I would use this because I carry around a lot of stuff. Either having a low-profile keycap for the rotary encoder, or having some way to easily take it off or collapse it down would be really helpful.
I like it being low-profile. That's why I didn't buy ErgoDox.
So all the best wishes to the author.
But there are some tradeoffs why I probably not buy it.
1) I'd suggest a column of home/page up/page down/end (top to bottom in this order) on the right side, like some laptop makers do. They're very convenient. That's absolutely necessary for text editing or navigating in various windows. (Sure one can use combos, but then you must stick to the keyboard all the time.) Del/backspace probably also should be different keys.
2) Missing menu key also requires you to take mouse sometimes. Laptops can get away with touchpad. But with the minimal keyboard, that requires user to hold it more and use combos, you must leave the keyboard and take a mouse to open a context menu.
A general philosophical question (not a negative comment to this particular keyboard): do we really still need key rows to be shifted 1/4 of width, because keys needed arms underneath in the late 19th century?
So all the best wishes to the author.
But there are some tradeoffs why I probably not buy it.
1) I'd suggest a column of home/page up/page down/end (top to bottom in this order) on the right side, like some laptop makers do. They're very convenient. That's absolutely necessary for text editing or navigating in various windows. (Sure one can use combos, but then you must stick to the keyboard all the time.) Del/backspace probably also should be different keys.
2) Missing menu key also requires you to take mouse sometimes. Laptops can get away with touchpad. But with the minimal keyboard, that requires user to hold it more and use combos, you must leave the keyboard and take a mouse to open a context menu.
A general philosophical question (not a negative comment to this particular keyboard): do we really still need key rows to be shifted 1/4 of width, because keys needed arms underneath in the late 19th century?
I use a custom built corne keyboard which staggers the columns based on finger length, but not the rows. I don’t think I will ever go back to a standard layout keyboard after having used this for a few months.
https://imgur.com/a/kEEIRhf to help visualize.
https://imgur.com/a/kEEIRhf to help visualize.
Cool, how'd you get started? Something like this still accurate? https://www.reddit.com/r/crkbd/comments/esv3i8/guide_corne_d...
Yes, I built my Corne using that.
If you won't like to source all the components yourself there are vendors who happy to sell you kits, but you can make 3-5 keyboards for that amount of money.
I suggest to use the Miryoku[1] layout.
[1]: https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku
If you won't like to source all the components yourself there are vendors who happy to sell you kits, but you can make 3-5 keyboards for that amount of money.
I suggest to use the Miryoku[1] layout.
[1]: https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku
I configured all my programmable keyboards to map Capslock to Fn and use Fn+WASD for cursors keys and Fn+Q for Home and Fn+E for End, so I think that dedicated keys are unnecessary.
I cannot imagine using anything else anymore because it is so insanely convenient to press and hold down Capslock with my pinky finger and browse around text extremely fast.
All my keyboards also map Fn+1 to copy and Fn+2 to insert text which saves additional effort to lift my finger from Fn/Capslock.
I cannot imagine using anything else anymore because it is so insanely convenient to press and hold down Capslock with my pinky finger and browse around text extremely fast.
All my keyboards also map Fn+1 to copy and Fn+2 to insert text which saves additional effort to lift my finger from Fn/Capslock.
But how do you press "shift+home" or "shift+pg up" to select a line or page? I tried this on Asus laptop 10 years ago, and IIRC it didn't work.
Another combo I use sometimes is "ctrl+shift+home/end" to select the text from cursor position to the very beginning/end.
Another combo I use sometimes is "ctrl+shift+home/end" to select the text from cursor position to the very beginning/end.
Combinations with 3 or more keys get a bit tricky but you get used to it quickly since the modifier keys are near each other and you usually have 3 fingers available for them.
The keyboard needs to be programmable either by it's built-in firmware or by flashing a custom firmware like ZMK in the OP.
Autohotkey can do something like this for every keyboard on Windows but it's not as seamless as a firmware solution. Plus the firmware solution works on every computer you plug your keyboard into be ause it's just a remapping of the keys, not a driver hack.
The keyboard needs to be programmable either by it's built-in firmware or by flashing a custom firmware like ZMK in the OP.
Autohotkey can do something like this for every keyboard on Windows but it's not as seamless as a firmware solution. Plus the firmware solution works on every computer you plug your keyboard into be ause it's just a remapping of the keys, not a driver hack.
That sort of thing works much better with fully programmable keyboards/QMK. I always rebind my caps lock at the keyboard layer and all of the normal combos you would expect work perfectly.
Web site advice: The spinning graphic is cool but it's very hard to get a decent look at the whole thing. I even tried clicking to pause it. It seems like all the pictures are partial or moving.
As the keyboard goes: As others have noted, it would be really nice to see this design approach taken to a more full-sized standard keyboard. I think it's necessary to have some kind of tactile thing between function keys - a gap, a bump, something.
As the keyboard goes: As others have noted, it would be really nice to see this design approach taken to a more full-sized standard keyboard. I think it's necessary to have some kind of tactile thing between function keys - a gap, a bump, something.
More Website advice:
- the text is too big
- Add padding to text and images
- Add space between elements (look crowded)
- too much moving stuff: Loose the marquee text
I am sorry, but I strongly disagree.
The Marquee text is what catapulted the site from "This is nice" to "This is Art" for me.
But then again I am more viewing the page as a piece of performance art than an actual attempt to sell me a keyboard!
The Marquee text is what catapulted the site from "This is nice" to "This is Art" for me.
But then again I am more viewing the page as a piece of performance art than an actual attempt to sell me a keyboard!
The <marquee> shall scroll again.
Needs some <blink> to be True Art though.
Needs some <blink> to be True Art though.
I haven't seen marquee text without an "Under construction!" .gif in quite a long time. It's tacky.
Even if you disagree the constant motion is objectively bad for people with attention impairments ("cognitive accessibility").
Even if you disagree the constant motion is objectively bad for people with attention impairments ("cognitive accessibility").
It looks good at some viewport sizes, but the margins are a bit messed up at other sizes: https://i.imgur.com/8XLzD0S.png
Try looking at out on mobile. It screams geocities.
Everything is too big and zoom out is broken. Honestly it's completely unreadable to me. I'm not even exaggerating, I really cannot read the "Introducing..." sentence.
There's no way to get a full view of the keyboard layout. The only full image is vertical (wtf), spinning (wtf) and doesn't fit on my 27" monitor (wtf). I would almost be ok if zoom out worked, but it doesn't.
Update: writing this, I see now that the top image shows the full keyboard horizontally... for 1 full second. With no way to pause the animation. And it keeps spinning and spinning.
Also the mouse cursor is horrendous and unnecessary.
I feel like I would like the design of this keyboard (except for the font choice which I don't like at all), but the website refuses to show it to me. Too bad.
Also why is there a "shft" key instead of "shift"? Did the "i" not fit?
I'm not sure what the rotary encoder is for? What does it do?
There's no way to get a full view of the keyboard layout. The only full image is vertical (wtf), spinning (wtf) and doesn't fit on my 27" monitor (wtf). I would almost be ok if zoom out worked, but it doesn't.
Update: writing this, I see now that the top image shows the full keyboard horizontally... for 1 full second. With no way to pause the animation. And it keeps spinning and spinning.
Also the mouse cursor is horrendous and unnecessary.
I feel like I would like the design of this keyboard (except for the font choice which I don't like at all), but the website refuses to show it to me. Too bad.
Also why is there a "shft" key instead of "shift"? Did the "i" not fit?
I'm not sure what the rotary encoder is for? What does it do?
In Firefox you can right click and select show controls.
This shows you the controls for the 17s video that is being looped and you can seek and pause at will.
Yes, I had the same problem with the moving images; this is static: https://electronicmaterialsoffice.com/img/layouts.jpg (but not hi-def).
I don't have a cursor on the website. Is it just me? As soon as I click the link it simply goes invisible. I see some hover effects when I move around, though. Is this intended design as in "use your keyboard"? I mean I'd get the joke but it's a terrible idea ...
The site applies (for me) a custom cursor. Presumably it failed to load the graphic for you and thus you get no cursor at all.
[deleted]
Replying to myself, someone else said look at https://electronicmaterialsoffice.com/img/layouts.jpg in a browser window and deleted their comment (?)
Anyhow, just realized: no page down, page up, home or end keys? What? No.
Anyhow, just realized: no page down, page up, home or end keys? What? No.
This is the first qwerty mechanical keyboard I've seen with four keys to the left of the spacebar, properly mimicking a MacBook layout. I'm far from a connoisseur in the space, but I have done some serious looking. Thank you thank you thank you.
As others have mentioned, the Teenage Engineering influence throughout is evident and welcome. I've long wished they would take a stab at an OP-1y TKL.
While I don't love the typeface(s?) you've chosen for the keys, I respect your commitment to what I'm sure you knew would be a polarizing choice.
Don't cut any corners in the manufacturing, please. I'll buy the shit out of this, even at a premium price.
As others have mentioned, the Teenage Engineering influence throughout is evident and welcome. I've long wished they would take a stab at an OP-1y TKL.
While I don't love the typeface(s?) you've chosen for the keys, I respect your commitment to what I'm sure you knew would be a polarizing choice.
Don't cut any corners in the manufacturing, please. I'll buy the shit out of this, even at a premium price.
I just noticed your typography section. Cool that you included that. I actually love GT Flexa in isolation (used it on a project just a few weeks ago!). Goes to show how different type can look in context. I think I just don't love particularly wide or narrow characters on keys.
GT Flexa was super fun to work with. The numerals on Altar I are, as you can imagine, the widest and thinnest that Flexa would go! I also added a custom Egyptian "I", rather than the default "I" since it reads less like a lowercase "L".
> four keys to the left of the spacebar...thank you
Hah, my gripe is that it is like this, instead of three keys. shrug
Hah, my gripe is that it is like this, instead of three keys. shrug
This looks so, so good. I'm weak to all things minimal + chic.
This looks like a mini mech keyboard done by Teenage Engineering, in the best kinda way. I'm not saying it looks derivative, but I wouldn't be surprised if they saw this and wish they made it themselves. They don't hold a monopoly on this look, need, and aesthetic penchant to go in this direction.
I'm more of a "full-size keyboard with numeric pad" typa person, due to my need for hot keys in After Effects. If you (and your team?) ever made one of those, I'd be on it. I bet a buncha other designers would as well.
This looks like a mini mech keyboard done by Teenage Engineering, in the best kinda way. I'm not saying it looks derivative, but I wouldn't be surprised if they saw this and wish they made it themselves. They don't hold a monopoly on this look, need, and aesthetic penchant to go in this direction.
I'm more of a "full-size keyboard with numeric pad" typa person, due to my need for hot keys in After Effects. If you (and your team?) ever made one of those, I'd be on it. I bet a buncha other designers would as well.
Thank you, I am a huge Teenage Engineering fan so that is a big complement!
Perhaps a larger board or separate numpad could come down the line if there is enough interest.
Perhaps a larger board or separate numpad could come down the line if there is enough interest.
I also thought "Teenage Engineering", it looks beautiful! I'm firmly in the "ergo split with thumb clusters" camp, but the design looks beautiful.
Beautiful, but it’ll be a pain to find contract manufacturers willing to do that keycap design. From the render I can already count 8 different injection molds required, which doesn’t sound feasible for a low-volume production run. You'd either have to price it very aggressively or be advised by your manufacturers during DFM to use standard low-profile keycaps instead.
For folks curious about keyboard manufacturing, Jesse from Keyboardio wrote an entire crash course on it with his Model 01 Kickstarter updates: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/keyboardio/the-model-01...
For folks curious about keyboard manufacturing, Jesse from Keyboardio wrote an entire crash course on it with his Model 01 Kickstarter updates: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/keyboardio/the-model-01...
There is already a prototype with these keycaps so I guess he did find somebody already. The price will be…. Interesting though
Is there or are those all renders?
The OP responds elsewhere that the prototypes are 3d printed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32513522
Is it known why the molds have not gone down in price? Or is it another chicken and egg problem? (customers don't order molds because it is expensive and look for off the shelf components, companies don't invest in making molding more affordable, because there is not enough customers...)
Because you are designing and producing a one-off items. Basically, you are engineering a tool which allows you to shoot molten plastic at high pressure into tiny cavities, with tolerances smaller than a tenth of a millimeter for the end product. That's not at all trivial and therefore unaffordable, unless you are building molds which will be used to create tens, if not hundreds of thousands of copies.
The cheap option is to reuse an existing mold, mostly by asking a manufacturer to create keycaps in an existing profile, but in a color of your choice. That's what almost everyone in the keyboard industry does.
I agree with the OP. Either they have to sell tens of thousands of this keyboard, or it is going to be priced in the high-hundreds or even low thousands of $.
The cheap option is to reuse an existing mold, mostly by asking a manufacturer to create keycaps in an existing profile, but in a color of your choice. That's what almost everyone in the keyboard industry does.
I agree with the OP. Either they have to sell tens of thousands of this keyboard, or it is going to be priced in the high-hundreds or even low thousands of $.
I have a keycap in mind, but what scares me is a mistake in the design. I give the model to the manufacturer, they create a mold, do a sample run and it turns out e.g. the stem is 0.1mm too wide, so it is too loose. Then make another mold, this time it is 0.05mm too narrow etc.
They gave me advice to create a model and order a 3D print to ensure it fits right, but I am not sure if 3D print will have a good enough precision.
When I was 3D printing at home I was never able to get exact dimensions - print was either 0.99999x scale or 1.005x scale etc.
I fear that a simple thing could turn out into multiplies of £10k and months of back and forth.
I watch some of the machinist YouTubes so can venture a guess…
Molds need super high precision CNC machines because any flaws will show up in the parts. So think expensive. And they aren’t going to be giving away machine time any time soon.
On guy I saw who was being interviewed had such a machine he bought second hand from (I believe) UC Berkeley and it was something like one out of three that were ever imported to the US. I guess it was a popular machine to make cell phone cases back in the day and Berkeley ended up with one for some reason.
Molds need super high precision CNC machines because any flaws will show up in the parts. So think expensive. And they aren’t going to be giving away machine time any time soon.
On guy I saw who was being interviewed had such a machine he bought second hand from (I believe) UC Berkeley and it was something like one out of three that were ever imported to the US. I guess it was a popular machine to make cell phone cases back in the day and Berkeley ended up with one for some reason.
Got a MX Keys keyboard from Logitech and, for better or for worse, it's been so good that it set a standard for me regarding keyboards.
While I was considering it saw some other Logitech keyboards that had a knob for volume control/etcetera, which I feel like it would be a much more sane approach regarding the low profile aspect than this 'rotary encoder' thing. Also, as someone said, some lateral buttons would've been awesome.
I like this design (though I feel like the typography choice was terribly unfortunate) and I can see the appeal for the low profile. But also agree that home/end/pgup/pgdown keys are a must.
Though for some reason when I tried the Bluetooth connection with the Mx keys it had a noticeable lag for each key press, versus the instant response with the propietary wireless connection with the dongle. However the usb-c alternative connection with this one seems like it's a great thing to have.
While I was considering it saw some other Logitech keyboards that had a knob for volume control/etcetera, which I feel like it would be a much more sane approach regarding the low profile aspect than this 'rotary encoder' thing. Also, as someone said, some lateral buttons would've been awesome.
I like this design (though I feel like the typography choice was terribly unfortunate) and I can see the appeal for the low profile. But also agree that home/end/pgup/pgdown keys are a must.
Though for some reason when I tried the Bluetooth connection with the Mx keys it had a noticeable lag for each key press, versus the instant response with the propietary wireless connection with the dongle. However the usb-c alternative connection with this one seems like it's a great thing to have.
I have been using the Keychron Q6 knob variant[0] - can totally vouch for having the knob. Having a hardware control to deal with volume that works across various DEs on Linux is so much convenient.
[0]: https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q6-qmk-custom-mec...
[0]: https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q6-qmk-custom-mec...
With ZMK firmware (that's what this board is running) latency can be seriously low in my experience - but it heavily depends on signal strength and BT chipset of the PC. My desktop has an older intel WiFi card with antennas behind the metal case, and latency is annoying. My notebook uses a ~5 years old intel wifi card, and I did not notice any delay even when playing stuff like CSGO. Probably still too slow for rythm games like osu!, but not noticeable for typing/coding/fps in my experience.
USB Bluetooth dongles fluctuate a lot too, I think it depends on the chipset used (and it's software stack).
USB Bluetooth dongles fluctuate a lot too, I think it depends on the chipset used (and it's software stack).
It's a beautiful keyboard, no doubt, and I'm sure a lot of care and thought went into making it. For me, having no page up/down buttons (and you do have space for them), is a deal breaker. I can forgive the weird mac-like squiggle button on the top left although it's completely useless to me (and most people I assume), but not the lack of Page Up/Down. I actually use those.
I'm not sure what you're referring to by "mac-like" squiggle button. The button to the left of the 1 is the standard button on both EU and US keyboard layouts. As a programmer, I'm using ~ daily. I don't use the § which is standard on EU layouts, but it is commonly used in the legal profession.
It's not standard, I've only ever seen it on a Mac UK keyboard. According to Wikipedia the section symbol is only a physical key on a few keyboards: Mac UK, ISO Switzerland and ISO Sweden [0] Most standard ISO keyboards don't have it, including ISO UK.
> The button to the left of the 1 is the standard button on both EU and US keyboard layouts
It's very different on different standards and different languages of those standards. Mac UK and ISO UK are completely different, Mac US and ANSI are similar so I'm guessing you are using an ANSI layout.
> As a programmer, I'm using ~ daily
On UK ISO ~ is to the left of the return key i.e the majority of keyboards in the UK, not the 1 key (aha pun) which is where ANSI puts it.
The OPs keyboard is a Mac UK layout (most easily identifiable by the completely difference positions of @"\#~`), so the GP's comment is fairly accurate, weird mac squiggly thing indeed. They should really consider offering an ISO layout unless they are only targeting Mac users.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_sign#Keyboard_entry
> The button to the left of the 1 is the standard button on both EU and US keyboard layouts
It's very different on different standards and different languages of those standards. Mac UK and ISO UK are completely different, Mac US and ANSI are similar so I'm guessing you are using an ANSI layout.
> As a programmer, I'm using ~ daily
On UK ISO ~ is to the left of the return key i.e the majority of keyboards in the UK, not the 1 key (aha pun) which is where ANSI puts it.
The OPs keyboard is a Mac UK layout (most easily identifiable by the completely difference positions of @"\#~`), so the GP's comment is fairly accurate, weird mac squiggly thing indeed. They should really consider offering an ISO layout unless they are only targeting Mac users.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_sign#Keyboard_entry
If you scroll about 2/3 of the way down the page, you’ll see the comparison between the ISO and ANSI version. The ISO version has the § key, while the ANSI version has a ~ key.
There’s nothing discernibly mac like about the squiggle button, it’s a section sign: §. I think tilde is used more often for sure, but § is particularly common in legal applications.
There is everything mac about it. It's on every mac keyboard, and only on hybrid external keyboards catering for pc and mac users. Never understood why they add THIS button but not page up/down.
> It’s on every mac keyboard
I have owned or been issued well over 8 macs and none of their keyboards had a section symbol.
I have owned or been issued well over 8 macs and none of their keyboards had a section symbol.
Perhaps the rotary thing could be mapped to Page Up and Page Down. Then you could twist your way through a document with both speed and precision.
I'm using ctrl pg up/down to move across tabs in my browser all day long. I can't see myself rotating a knob to do that. It's a very different movement and it's not discrete, too easy to move too far.
I didn't notice all the missing important keys.
~ del pgup pgdown ins home end
And cmd and opt have no place in a Windows or Linux machine. There should be alt and windows/super there. Seeing cmd and opt constantly remembers the owners that they are using a keyboard for Macs. Maybe they'll build one for Windows and Linux if they'll be successful at selling this one.
I didn't notice all the missing important keys.
~ del pgup pgdown ins home end
And cmd and opt have no place in a Windows or Linux machine. There should be alt and windows/super there. Seeing cmd and opt constantly remembers the owners that they are using a keyboard for Macs. Maybe they'll build one for Windows and Linux if they'll be successful at selling this one.
Now that's a constructive idea.
I still like my Page up and down though but that's not a bad idea either.
I have a Chromebook where Page Up/Page Down is Alt-Up Arrow and Alt-Down Arrow. It might be the OS doing that mapping, rather than the keyboard (have never really investigated). Works OK.
ISO keys, awesome. I wish ISO layouts can be more common, I grew up using ABNT (pt-BR) layouts, I got used to US-intl + altgr, but I dearly miss the big enter key.
I'm a US layout MX Keys owner right now, so the key caps minimal profile is awesome for me. Definitely miss the big enter from ISO layouts.
Don't care about the num pad like my accountant wife does, but the full size arrows and del/insert I do care.
home/end/pgup/pgdn I can live with a combo using the arrow keys.
I'm a US layout MX Keys owner right now, so the key caps minimal profile is awesome for me. Definitely miss the big enter from ISO layouts.
Don't care about the num pad like my accountant wife does, but the full size arrows and del/insert I do care.
home/end/pgup/pgdn I can live with a combo using the arrow keys.
I have the exact opposite pref. In most of Europe ISO layout (with various country-specific accents) are standard and it can be hard to find a US (ANSI) layout (with horizontal rather than vertical Enter).
In the Netherlands, most brands seem to default US layout, but some (most notably Logitech and Apple) still default to ISO, with a thin vertical Enter. Even "International English" (Apple) or "International American" (Logitech) tends to be ISO. Fortunately Apple offers US English in their online store nowadays (but not in any physical stores). But for Logitech AFAIK it's impossible to get an ANSI US layout in Europe without importing it yourself from the US. Worst thing is, most of their marketing still shows the US layout, and many retailers have no clue about different keyboard layouts nor what they're actually selling.
In the Netherlands, most brands seem to default US layout, but some (most notably Logitech and Apple) still default to ISO, with a thin vertical Enter. Even "International English" (Apple) or "International American" (Logitech) tends to be ISO. Fortunately Apple offers US English in their online store nowadays (but not in any physical stores). But for Logitech AFAIK it's impossible to get an ANSI US layout in Europe without importing it yourself from the US. Worst thing is, most of their marketing still shows the US layout, and many retailers have no clue about different keyboard layouts nor what they're actually selling.
US-ANSI keyboards are easily available in Denmark (double check the manufacture's model number though).
- https://www.computersalg.dk/l/1428/tastaturer?f=71324fc8-e92...
- https://www.proshop.dk/Tastatur?pre=0&f~tastaturer_sprog=amk...
- https://www.computersalg.dk/l/1428/tastaturer?f=71324fc8-e92...
- https://www.proshop.dk/Tastatur?pre=0&f~tastaturer_sprog=amk...
Logitech's "US International" keyboards have ISO layout (vertical Enter, short left shift), not ANSI.
Are you searching for high-end (not necessarily custom) mechanical keyboards? I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen a keyboard more than $100 or so that didn't support an ISO layout.
The big downside of the ISO layout is that the enter key is no longer in reach of the right hand -- you have to move away to press enter. I use enter way too much for it to be out of reach.
Is it possible to remove the 'rotary encoder'?
As someone who often carries his keyboard around in a backpack, I think this part can break very easily.
As someone who often carries his keyboard around in a backpack, I think this part can break very easily.
This would be exactly my use-case for this kind of keyboard, and it does seem counterproductive having a low-profile keyboard with a whopping rotary encoder sticking out of it. I like SouthPawEngineer's use of scroll encoders, which might be more low-profile: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/nwye70/g...
I concur, as the keyboard spun over I was like wow, that's an amazing travel mechanical keyboard, then the encoder stopped that idea. It is a remarkable looking device though, I really appreciate the care put into it's design. I feel like the most enthusiastic market for that kind of slim design is definitely portable users, so perhaps there's an easy way to have two models by making the encoder optional.
My only other hopefully constructive criticism is without feet to raise the angle, some people might find it uncomfortable. However it's possible that being so slim and low actually makes the tilt angle less of an issue, I'm not sure!
My only other hopefully constructive criticism is without feet to raise the angle, some people might find it uncomfortable. However it's possible that being so slim and low actually makes the tilt angle less of an issue, I'm not sure!
It could just ship with two different tops, one tactile like shown, and one low and flat?
I hadn't considered that but you raise a good point. I'll look into it.
Maybe consider a different design like this keyboard: https://www.amazon.com/CORSAIR-PLATINUM-Mechanical-Gaming-Ke...
The roller in the top right is mapped by default to the volume which is very convenient.
The roller in the top right is mapped by default to the volume which is very convenient.
I think the rotary knob is cool, despite not having a use for it myself at the moment (I could probably think of one). Is it possible to just reduce the height? Maybe make the knob interchangeable?
[deleted]
I think it looks beautiful, but have to echo the comments about not having the home, end, pgup, pgdown + numpad keys making it impractical. Would 100% get this if it had a full sized version.
I feel like those comments about layout are misplaced. It’s like saying “nice motorcycle you designed, but really I need a cargo van.”
I believe it is mac-inspired, where cmd/alt+arrow are usually used for that.
But overall, yeah, people split around mac/60, tkl and full. No idea why keyboard makers tend to fix on only one of them. Budget reasons - yeah, but isn’t it strange to cut off large parts of potential customers.
But overall, yeah, people split around mac/60, tkl and full. No idea why keyboard makers tend to fix on only one of them. Budget reasons - yeah, but isn’t it strange to cut off large parts of potential customers.
I agree on the numpad. I do bioinformatics/data science work that sometimes involves some manual spreadsheet surfing and definitely use the numpad. A lot of numerical identifiers for genes that you end up incidentally memorizing after a while, and want to ctrl/cmd-F for.
Like many others in your assumed target demographic I have very specific requirements - in my case (apart form the rest, which is spot on) staggered, split, and (wishfully) tentable, 4+ thumb cluster.
That being said, if I were in the market for around this layout, I'd be all over your design. I think you nailed it. I especially like what you did with the arrow keys, in that they don't stand out from the rest of the keys so you can get creative in that area easier. Around this form factor pretty much everyone (I never had a <9" where it didn't drive me nuts) somehow seem to mess up the arrow keys so props.
If you'd be able to offer even more enthusiast-targeted layout variations than iso/ansi (which is already neat) that could get really interesting, I think. You'd surely build brand fast. But I also see how that could be unfeasible while keeping price within range for the non-hardcore.
Things like that I think it comes down a lot to what market niche and scale you're aiming for.
I can see how this could go well as-is in a Kickstarter.
EDIT: Oh, one thing actually: I'd consider adding a dongle option. Bluetooth can be a hassle at times and a verified compatible reliable (be it BT or some other protocol) plug that Just Works whatever is running on the host is great. So I don't have to scramble for a cable to get into the boot menu.
That being said, if I were in the market for around this layout, I'd be all over your design. I think you nailed it. I especially like what you did with the arrow keys, in that they don't stand out from the rest of the keys so you can get creative in that area easier. Around this form factor pretty much everyone (I never had a <9" where it didn't drive me nuts) somehow seem to mess up the arrow keys so props.
If you'd be able to offer even more enthusiast-targeted layout variations than iso/ansi (which is already neat) that could get really interesting, I think. You'd surely build brand fast. But I also see how that could be unfeasible while keeping price within range for the non-hardcore.
Things like that I think it comes down a lot to what market niche and scale you're aiming for.
I can see how this could go well as-is in a Kickstarter.
EDIT: Oh, one thing actually: I'd consider adding a dongle option. Bluetooth can be a hassle at times and a verified compatible reliable (be it BT or some other protocol) plug that Just Works whatever is running on the host is great. So I don't have to scramble for a cable to get into the boot menu.
Love it, I would 1000% buy this. I see so many awesome mechanical keyboards but it's rare to see one that looks great _and_ comes in an ISO layout!
Will it be possible to pick switches, or will it be hotswap to change them later? This says linear, but I'd much prefer tactile.
I'd echo the other comments about the rotary encoder looking fragile too.
Will it be possible to pick switches, or will it be hotswap to change them later? This says linear, but I'd much prefer tactile.
I'd echo the other comments about the rotary encoder looking fragile too.
Thank you for the kind words.
For now it is just linear switches but it may be possible to offer a choice of switches down the line. I'll look into it.
For now it is just linear switches but it may be possible to offer a choice of switches down the line. I'll look into it.
Gorgeous. I love the bold choices. Website really pops. Clearly a lot of care went into this whole operation. Kudos on having two different layouts. Aluminum chassis is great. I don't travel with a keyboard often, but if I did, I'd be all over this.
Being in the peanut gallery is fun, so I'm going to echo a few common points.
- I love the dished keys. Would be a neat feel I think to do all keys like that
- staggered is the past, ortho is the present and future
- separate delete/backspace key is great (maybe fn-bksp can do this?)
- I would give my left toe for a trackpoint on a low profile portable keyb.
- I love the novelty/utility of the rotary encoder, but the high profile of the knob kind of defeats the low-profile. A jog wheel or knurled knob would be perfect
- I like all of the font choices - in isolation. Yes even the numbers, which are getting some heat. What irks me is the inconsistency of the fonts. I count 3-5 distinct typefaces. It would be very iconic if you used the number font on all keys. It screams ART and makes it stand out from bog standard keycaps.
- I know split is hard to engineer, but it's worth mentioning, because that would really knock this out of the atmosphere.
Being in the peanut gallery is fun, so I'm going to echo a few common points.
- I love the dished keys. Would be a neat feel I think to do all keys like that
- staggered is the past, ortho is the present and future
- separate delete/backspace key is great (maybe fn-bksp can do this?)
- I would give my left toe for a trackpoint on a low profile portable keyb.
- I love the novelty/utility of the rotary encoder, but the high profile of the knob kind of defeats the low-profile. A jog wheel or knurled knob would be perfect
- I like all of the font choices - in isolation. Yes even the numbers, which are getting some heat. What irks me is the inconsistency of the fonts. I count 3-5 distinct typefaces. It would be very iconic if you used the number font on all keys. It screams ART and makes it stand out from bog standard keycaps.
- I know split is hard to engineer, but it's worth mentioning, because that would really knock this out of the atmosphere.
Positive Feedback:
I quit like the tight, minimal look. the variation in key heights and the concave number row keys seem like excellent positioning features.
Honestly, I've used so many keyboards in my time that I'd be quite happy to adapt to this layout and give it a go. It would look great along with my minimalist tower.
Questions:
Does it have feet to provide tilt? It was unclear from the website, but as best I could make out it does not, only lays flat on the desk.
Is it backlit? I would assume 'no' since it isn't mentioned, but the picture of the low profile switches made me second guess, and backlit keys are fairly standard these days.
Are the low profile switches pluggable? I haven't checked in detail but I imagine that manufacturer makes something like blue and brown variants of that switch and I like to have different switches in some places, would be nice to swap out without busting out the soldering iron.
Can the bluetooth module be (truly) disabled or deleted? It could be considered a security issue. I would prefer to avoid bluetooth in a desktop setting.
Otherwise, thanks for posting, this looks pretty sweet. I've signed up under the waiting list.
I quit like the tight, minimal look. the variation in key heights and the concave number row keys seem like excellent positioning features.
Honestly, I've used so many keyboards in my time that I'd be quite happy to adapt to this layout and give it a go. It would look great along with my minimalist tower.
Questions:
Does it have feet to provide tilt? It was unclear from the website, but as best I could make out it does not, only lays flat on the desk.
Is it backlit? I would assume 'no' since it isn't mentioned, but the picture of the low profile switches made me second guess, and backlit keys are fairly standard these days.
Are the low profile switches pluggable? I haven't checked in detail but I imagine that manufacturer makes something like blue and brown variants of that switch and I like to have different switches in some places, would be nice to swap out without busting out the soldering iron.
Can the bluetooth module be (truly) disabled or deleted? It could be considered a security issue. I would prefer to avoid bluetooth in a desktop setting.
Otherwise, thanks for posting, this looks pretty sweet. I've signed up under the waiting list.
Love the design in general, nice and understated.
I'm not sold on the typograhy for the numbers, it seems a bit overdone.
The rotary encoder seems a bit pointless, I wouldn't know what to use it for other then volume perhaps?
Could the aluminium base be replaced with more of the recycled plastics? If you are going for sustainable, that seems more sustainable then milling one of the more energy intensive materials we have, even if it recyclable. If I spend a lot on such a nice keyboard, I would hope it lasts long enough that recyclability is not the most significant. ( Disclaimer: that is 100% based on assumptions about materials etc).
I'm not sold on the typograhy for the numbers, it seems a bit overdone.
The rotary encoder seems a bit pointless, I wouldn't know what to use it for other then volume perhaps?
Could the aluminium base be replaced with more of the recycled plastics? If you are going for sustainable, that seems more sustainable then milling one of the more energy intensive materials we have, even if it recyclable. If I spend a lot on such a nice keyboard, I would hope it lasts long enough that recyclability is not the most significant. ( Disclaimer: that is 100% based on assumptions about materials etc).
I have mainly been using the rotary encoder for volume, yes. I have to say it does _feel_ very nice though, much more satisfying than changing volume with vol up/down media keys.
I tested out using the encoder for other things like zoom in/out but I haven't found anything where it felt more useful than volume.
In regards to the case, the aluminium case gives the device a reassuring heft. My preference would be to make it out of some % of recycled aluminium but this is proving hard to source in low volumes.
I tested out using the encoder for other things like zoom in/out but I haven't found anything where it felt more useful than volume.
In regards to the case, the aluminium case gives the device a reassuring heft. My preference would be to make it out of some % of recycled aluminium but this is proving hard to source in low volumes.
Yeah, that makes sense. Feeling nice is a large part of such a premium product. And it's in the right spot. I had a nice logitech kb once, it had a bigger rotary encoder next to the ESC key that I turned a little whenever I tried to hit ESC. As a vim user, that was not ideal. Especially when it was mapped to the task switcher.
Heft is a good point, I hadn't considered that.
Heft is a good point, I hadn't considered that.
Encoders are pretty nice for volume and screen brightness, and if you are working with some specific software you could in theory remap them to other random stuff like scroll through a video editor timeline. My usecase is limited to volume/screen brightness.
Are there any special keyboards, with only rotary encoders, to supplement a regular keyboard? Could be cool to adjust volume, colors, text size, scroll position and whatever is possible.
There's a lot of criticism in the comments here, some of it feels very negative. I can imagine reading it as the OP is quite demoralising.
Personally I think what the OP has achieved is very impressive. The design looks beautiful, and there's a very "Apple-esque" feel to the website. I love that sustainability has been made a requirement as part of the design.
I think some of the other comments give good feedback about the website, the most important of which is that some more photos with the entire keyboard in the context it's used (maybe sitting in front of an iMac) would be really to understand its actual size.
Well done though OP - I like this a lot.
Personally I think what the OP has achieved is very impressive. The design looks beautiful, and there's a very "Apple-esque" feel to the website. I love that sustainability has been made a requirement as part of the design.
I think some of the other comments give good feedback about the website, the most important of which is that some more photos with the entire keyboard in the context it's used (maybe sitting in front of an iMac) would be really to understand its actual size.
Well done though OP - I like this a lot.
Thanks, I'm so happy you — and lots of others — like what I've been working on. It means a lot, it's very fulfilling.
I don't find the criticism demoralising. Quite the opposite, it means people are engaged, which I love. I tried to create a product with a strong design and as a result it's quite divisive. That's okay. Good, even.
I put this thing up on the internet and asked for peoples opinions... and that's what I got. Lots of opinions! Many of which are valid, and I will take back and work on.
At the end of the day the site got a lot of traffic, lots of people expressed interest in the product and I got lots of feedback. It's a win-win and I am very happy.
I don't find the criticism demoralising. Quite the opposite, it means people are engaged, which I love. I tried to create a product with a strong design and as a result it's quite divisive. That's okay. Good, even.
I put this thing up on the internet and asked for peoples opinions... and that's what I got. Lots of opinions! Many of which are valid, and I will take back and work on.
At the end of the day the site got a lot of traffic, lots of people expressed interest in the product and I got lots of feedback. It's a win-win and I am very happy.
I love it, from what I see. I will definitely be an early buyer (US version...).
I wish we could all have a real conversation about key layouts, though. The layout with the less reachable left shift and right enter/return is just dumb. It's like putting the door lock control on the outside of your car door so you have to roll the window down to reach out and unlock the door. In place of where the door lock belongs, they put the hood release lever. Obviously that would be a really stupid design since we need to unlock the door much more than we need to open the hood. And that's how I feel about the tradeoffs between the US and US International layouts.
The tilda and backtick key is much less used than the shift key, so robbing reachable space from shift to put that less needed key is absurd. So is pushing squeezing the return key out of reach of the right pinky. Someone who was not a touch typist designed this, and they should be made to pay for the guaranteed loss in productivity that comes from using it.
Sorry for the rant. But really, I wish this could be resolved. It sucks that I cannot walk into an Apple store in Europe and get one with "good" US keyboard. (You can still order US layout in Europe.)
I wish we could all have a real conversation about key layouts, though. The layout with the less reachable left shift and right enter/return is just dumb. It's like putting the door lock control on the outside of your car door so you have to roll the window down to reach out and unlock the door. In place of where the door lock belongs, they put the hood release lever. Obviously that would be a really stupid design since we need to unlock the door much more than we need to open the hood. And that's how I feel about the tradeoffs between the US and US International layouts.
The tilda and backtick key is much less used than the shift key, so robbing reachable space from shift to put that less needed key is absurd. So is pushing squeezing the return key out of reach of the right pinky. Someone who was not a touch typist designed this, and they should be made to pay for the guaranteed loss in productivity that comes from using it.
Sorry for the rant. But really, I wish this could be resolved. It sucks that I cannot walk into an Apple store in Europe and get one with "good" US keyboard. (You can still order US layout in Europe.)
Like you I have issues with the iso layout, my dislike comes from the enter key. It’s a fundamental layout issue that trips me every time. Especially on Apple products, where the right side of the keyboard is brought in by .25/.5U, so that the descending portion of the enter key is stupidly narrow
> I tried to create a product with a strong design and as a result it's quite divisive
Respect you attitude! Keyboards specifically are a place where there's no one-size-fits-all product (especially among enthusiasts) and making bold choices is how we get drastic change
Respect you attitude! Keyboards specifically are a place where there's no one-size-fits-all product (especially among enthusiasts) and making bold choices is how we get drastic change
This is becoming a trend on HN where top comment points calls out the criticism in a thread. I personally feel there is nothing negative about critique and one of the reasons people broadcast their work here is to receive more feedback on it. Not every showcase automatically deserves a compliment. I think we should respect people for their opinions and the danger of applying negative pressure to criticism is we create a sheltered sphere where everything has to be "positive".
(Fwiw, I think most of the feedback in this thread is thoughtful and encouraging - speaking more generally below.)
I think the gap is the difference between giving feedback to a person and broadcasting superiority. The former is what we do in-person. It takes constant active effort to not do the latter.
Giving feedback in-person, you want to make sure your feedback land. Encouraging where possible by pointing out what works, discussing the ways it can or needs to improve.
When people don't give feedback to the OP as a person, and rather treat it like a faceless corporate entity, or go full-Slashdot, that does get a bit mean-spirited.
I think the gap is the difference between giving feedback to a person and broadcasting superiority. The former is what we do in-person. It takes constant active effort to not do the latter.
Giving feedback in-person, you want to make sure your feedback land. Encouraging where possible by pointing out what works, discussing the ways it can or needs to improve.
When people don't give feedback to the OP as a person, and rather treat it like a faceless corporate entity, or go full-Slashdot, that does get a bit mean-spirited.
So far I am not seeing any comments that are not constructive, but I concur. There can be an disproportionate amount of people on Hackernews that think that its ok to give feedback without considering how it lands.
In my view, the fact that you are speaking on the internet does not mean you have license to be harmful or careless with the people you interact with.
I also like that the parent complains about the very thing (being able to speak freely) but doesn't want to apply that to people that disagree with his standpoint.
In my view, the fact that you are speaking on the internet does not mean you have license to be harmful or careless with the people you interact with.
I also like that the parent complains about the very thing (being able to speak freely) but doesn't want to apply that to people that disagree with his standpoint.
> This is becoming a trend on HN where top comment points calls out the criticism in a thread.
This is because some people have discovered that it's a great way to emotionally manipulate others into upvoting that comment out of guilt - the structure of this kind of comment is designed to bypass the logical reasoning centers of the brain and cause an emotional reaction. (I saw another comment a few weeks ago that had more detail on this, but I have no hope of finding it without my exobrain) It's also just barely far enough away from the "Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community." in the guidelines that some people can justify doing it.
I automatically downvote comments of this form whenever I see them. Comments should be written in such a way that encourages curious and thoughtful conversation and not emotional manipulation.
This is because some people have discovered that it's a great way to emotionally manipulate others into upvoting that comment out of guilt - the structure of this kind of comment is designed to bypass the logical reasoning centers of the brain and cause an emotional reaction. (I saw another comment a few weeks ago that had more detail on this, but I have no hope of finding it without my exobrain) It's also just barely far enough away from the "Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community." in the guidelines that some people can justify doing it.
I automatically downvote comments of this form whenever I see them. Comments should be written in such a way that encourages curious and thoughtful conversation and not emotional manipulation.
Original parent poster here.
If you look at my account age and number of comment upvotes you'll see that I don't care about comment upvotes at all and have never made any effort to increase them.
My original comment was to highlight that I think the ratio of positive to negative feedback for what is an impressive effort by an individual seems unbalanced. There's lots of negative feedback and very little positive feedback.
I think positive feedback is important - it's good to know what you're doing well in addition to what you're not doing well.
As someone who has designed a product from scratch before I also think it's incredibly easy for people who haven't gone through that process to underestimate the time and effort involved.
If you look at my account age and number of comment upvotes you'll see that I don't care about comment upvotes at all and have never made any effort to increase them.
My original comment was to highlight that I think the ratio of positive to negative feedback for what is an impressive effort by an individual seems unbalanced. There's lots of negative feedback and very little positive feedback.
I think positive feedback is important - it's good to know what you're doing well in addition to what you're not doing well.
As someone who has designed a product from scratch before I also think it's incredibly easy for people who haven't gone through that process to underestimate the time and effort involved.
>Not every showcase automatically deserves a compliment.
You're right. I do find, however, that the "default" reaction to showcases is to point out all the flaws, but not reinforce any of the strengths. To me that seems unbalanced.
I'm sure many HN users are content with this form of feedback - that's fine. I personally think that when receiving feedback, finding out what has been done well is as important as finding out what hasn't.
You're right. I do find, however, that the "default" reaction to showcases is to point out all the flaws, but not reinforce any of the strengths. To me that seems unbalanced.
I'm sure many HN users are content with this form of feedback - that's fine. I personally think that when receiving feedback, finding out what has been done well is as important as finding out what hasn't.
The "point out flaws but not strengths" thing is something that has always bugged me for one simple reason: If you only tell me what you don't like, I don't know what I need to try to maintain while fixing the flaws to keep what IS good/useful/etc.
The great value of HN is in the empowerment of its jerks.
As someone who lives in the negative hemisphere, right, not everything has to be positive. But hey, I think it was cool he did this, and he hit the HN jackpot in attention, I find merit in his effort to make something, anything.
^ agree, I mean did the OP expect to make a polarizing product like the keyboard without some criticism?
also, this thread is a gold mine of insight they can use to refine their product for the market. ie take off the stupid orange knob and hide the made in the uk nonsense and stop naming the product like a mars bound space rocket
also, this thread is a gold mine of insight they can use to refine their product for the market. ie take off the stupid orange knob and hide the made in the uk nonsense and stop naming the product like a mars bound space rocket
“The Market” isn’t “readers of Hacker News.” It’s part of the market, but it would be foolish to let critiques here drive decisions. If we listened to Hacker News Dropbox potentially wouldn’t have been a thing.
I'm guessing it will be an expensive keyboard. As such, HN is probably the best market because we will be the early adopters, and our colleagues will see our awesome new thing and perhaps also want one.
Dropbox is a very useful thing for most people, and it's not expensive. That's a very different scenario than this keyboard+HN.
Dropbox is a very useful thing for most people, and it's not expensive. That's a very different scenario than this keyboard+HN.
This is one product that I think HN might be "the market" (or at least a huge chunk of it).
The key IMHO is to sort through the comments/critiques and dismiss the overly negative grumpy ones from the people who crap on everything, but hone in on the ones that have a ring of truth to them. Those should be used to drive serious thought about improvements. At least, that's what I would do.
The key IMHO is to sort through the comments/critiques and dismiss the overly negative grumpy ones from the people who crap on everything, but hone in on the ones that have a ring of truth to them. Those should be used to drive serious thought about improvements. At least, that's what I would do.
it's not a thing just use rsync.
Yeah it's pretty amazing looking really. I have different personal preferences but I'm not blind to the aesthetics of this thing. It also seems like it would have a nice solid feel, and I like that knob design a lot.
If you show a room full of engineers your new idea and none of them criticize it, you have failed. Disinterest is the worst response you can get from an engineer.
As the time I write this, this link is at the top of the front page and there are 414 comments. People are interested.
As the time I write this, this link is at the top of the front page and there are 414 comments. People are interested.
The problem is that these things are deeply personal. And this one is really, really close to what I'd want myself. Yet... I still wouldn't buy it. Here's what I'm using right now (actually I have the wireless version which they recently stopped producing): https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/accessories-and-software/keyb...
But I couldn't deal without the trackpoint, which I use regularly for simple mouse actions even when I have a mouse just inches away. Also my right pinky actuates the emacs "meta" key using the key immediately below "/" (it's the RCtrl on the Lenovo), and on the Altar I that key is offset from the row above, which would be a muscle memory collision[1]. And there are no volume control keys mapped, which I find I use very regularly in the post-pandemic world of constant online meetings. (But it does have display backlight buttons? Why?! You don't use external keyboards with laptops. Seems like a weird choice.)
(Also, a nitpick: the backspace key on the US layout is marked "del" on the keycap. I REALLY hope this is a typo and that the key doesn't send Delete instead of BS when pressed!)
Beyond that though, this really does look great, and if I wasn't wedded to the thinkpad keyboard I'd definitely consider it. But... I'm a really small market, and even I'm not quite onboard.
[1] And this is the primary reason why I've stuck with Thinkpads for more than a decade. This isn't a standard key position, but Thinkpads (not even Lenovo generically, most of their other keyboards mess this up) do it best for what I want.
But I couldn't deal without the trackpoint, which I use regularly for simple mouse actions even when I have a mouse just inches away. Also my right pinky actuates the emacs "meta" key using the key immediately below "/" (it's the RCtrl on the Lenovo), and on the Altar I that key is offset from the row above, which would be a muscle memory collision[1]. And there are no volume control keys mapped, which I find I use very regularly in the post-pandemic world of constant online meetings. (But it does have display backlight buttons? Why?! You don't use external keyboards with laptops. Seems like a weird choice.)
(Also, a nitpick: the backspace key on the US layout is marked "del" on the keycap. I REALLY hope this is a typo and that the key doesn't send Delete instead of BS when pressed!)
Beyond that though, this really does look great, and if I wasn't wedded to the thinkpad keyboard I'd definitely consider it. But... I'm a really small market, and even I'm not quite onboard.
[1] And this is the primary reason why I've stuck with Thinkpads for more than a decade. This isn't a standard key position, but Thinkpads (not even Lenovo generically, most of their other keyboards mess this up) do it best for what I want.
This company makes trackpoint mechanical keyboards, but they're main schtick is reviving the Model M: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/UKBD
I'm working on a modification for a different product with a trackball, but learned about the trackpoint as well. The patent recently expired and besides that, it's ~$10-20 to buy a trackpoint component and you could hack it into a keyboard if you had the time and willingness.
I'm working on a modification for a different product with a trackball, but learned about the trackpoint as well. The patent recently expired and besides that, it's ~$10-20 to buy a trackpoint component and you could hack it into a keyboard if you had the time and willingness.
Tex also makes keyboards with a trackpoint. I haven't personally used them but have seen some great looking custom builds.
https://tex.com.tw/collections/keyboard
https://tex.com.tw/collections/keyboard
I've got a Shinobi, it is a joy to type on but the weird .75u caps are kind of strange.
Why is that a problem though? It’s really, really close to what you want. But not close enough. So you don’t buy it. No problem!
It was a response to the upthread comment about all the feedback being discouraging. In fact I love the design and think it's a great product, but all my notes still look negative and I'm probably not going to be a customer.
(Though I just now realized that this is running Zephyr firmware, so I'm thinking maybe it might be worth retraining my emacs pinky...)
(Though I just now realized that this is running Zephyr firmware, so I'm thinking maybe it might be worth retraining my emacs pinky...)
Its designed for apple and not windows. Note the presence of a command key. Apple calls the backspace key a delete key even though its not. (It may do delete as a shift option.)
> Apple calls the backspace key a delete key even though its not
Historically the backspace key is literally that, moving the typewriter's carriage back (when the space key moves it forward).
On current computers the space key now inserts a "space" character instead of simply moving the cursor a step right.
Backspace isn't symmetric to that anymore, as it doesn't even insert a space back but deletes backwards, so it is (pedantically) a misnomer.
And this is true for "modern" computers, older ones were closer to teletypes and would move back for overwrite (e.g try vi compat mode).
Historically the backspace key is literally that, moving the typewriter's carriage back (when the space key moves it forward).
On current computers the space key now inserts a "space" character instead of simply moving the cursor a step right.
Backspace isn't symmetric to that anymore, as it doesn't even insert a space back but deletes backwards, so it is (pedantically) a misnomer.
And this is true for "modern" computers, older ones were closer to teletypes and would move back for overwrite (e.g try vi compat mode).
I personally loved the old Sun keyboards that backspace and delete right above each other so you could fix the most annoying^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcommon terminal problem by just moving a finger instead of screwing around with tty settings.
Isn't this kind of a "point of view" thing?
Backspace does add a space backwards. If there was a character there, it gets replaced with a space. :D
That's not true though. The remainder of the text buffer is shifted. It really is a deletion and not an addition.
I mean, that's true if you think of a space as exclusively a character. In the physical meaning of the word, what exists in place of the original character is now an empty 'space'. In some pedantic sense you have truly added space where there was once none.
Consider the behaviour before or after either newlines in plaintext or paragraph ends in word processors. Also soft wrapping. It is truly a deletion now.
Can't you use the knob for volume control?
Barring a few issues, I could honestly see myself buying it - it's a nice design statement, it looks reasonably practical to use, and assuming the build quality lives up to the design it should be a really nice keyboard.
> The design looks beautiful
The numbers look ugly IMO, and they are also a lot bigger than the letters.
Other than that, it does look quite good.
The numbers look ugly IMO, and they are also a lot bigger than the letters.
Other than that, it does look quite good.
It looks really nice, but it's not for me — I won't be able to use any non-100% keyboard 100% comfortably due to my stupid habits that refuse to change — and that's fine.
The OP did an extremely impressive job, and that's what matters in the end. I can totally see them selling a lot of these.
The OP did an extremely impressive job, and that's what matters in the end. I can totally see them selling a lot of these.
I would think that someone with the tenacity to spend a year designing a keyboard would have enough grit that a few Comic Book Guy comments would not demoralize them.
agreed. it looks gorgeous and i’m very tempted by it. i’m not really the target market as i don’t really care about a mechanical keyboard.. but i’m honestly considering it.
[deleted]
Everyone is different, but personally I won’t buy a keyboard without separate Delete and Backspace keys, without Home/End/PgUp/PgDn/Insert keys, and without a dedicated Menu key [0], for any kind of serious work.
I’d also imagine that one is prone to bump into the rotary knob if one is not fully conditioned to that keyboard.
I applaud the T-shaped cursor block and the full-sized function keys, although it would be useful to color the function keys differently in groups of four (cf. the standard PC layout).
I’d also rather do without an Fn key, as it messes up muscle memory from regular desktop keyboards.
I like the idea of using different key shapes for the number row and the cursor keys for tactile recognition, although I’d have to try it to see if those shapes are any good for actual typing. I feel that slightly concave keycaps will always be the best.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menu_key
I’d also imagine that one is prone to bump into the rotary knob if one is not fully conditioned to that keyboard.
I applaud the T-shaped cursor block and the full-sized function keys, although it would be useful to color the function keys differently in groups of four (cf. the standard PC layout).
I’d also rather do without an Fn key, as it messes up muscle memory from regular desktop keyboards.
I like the idea of using different key shapes for the number row and the cursor keys for tactile recognition, although I’d have to try it to see if those shapes are any good for actual typing. I feel that slightly concave keycaps will always be the best.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menu_key
This.
The traditional keyboard standard may not be perfect but it used to be standard. I had muscle memory that served me. Now my client laptop, employer laptop, personal laptop, home gaming/photo desktop, media computer, etc all want to have wildly different, completely unique layouts, usually with massive compromises. "you just have to get used to it" assumes I'll have a single keyboard for prolonged period of time but that is simply not the case for me. I need the dedicated home/insert/pgup/pgdwn block because I use it every minute. I need function keys in easy blocks of four so I don't hunt for f5 or f9. Layout should be a solved problem, or let's work on making a better layout standard, but each keyboard having its own layout is a personal nightmare.
The traditional keyboard standard may not be perfect but it used to be standard. I had muscle memory that served me. Now my client laptop, employer laptop, personal laptop, home gaming/photo desktop, media computer, etc all want to have wildly different, completely unique layouts, usually with massive compromises. "you just have to get used to it" assumes I'll have a single keyboard for prolonged period of time but that is simply not the case for me. I need the dedicated home/insert/pgup/pgdwn block because I use it every minute. I need function keys in easy blocks of four so I don't hunt for f5 or f9. Layout should be a solved problem, or let's work on making a better layout standard, but each keyboard having its own layout is a personal nightmare.
I disagree. I've switched primary keyboards many times: from cheap pc keyboards to standard apple keyboards, to minimal mechanical, and now the advantage. I also routinely use a windows workspace from a linux host which totally throws off my keybindings.
One thing I think helps: I've had blank keycaps for the better part of the last decade. There's at least no visual cue saying this key does that thing.
And now, I switch between my primary advantage layout to laptop keyboards (I have a few) all the time. I think all the switching between layouts just makes you better at whatever. I'm a pretty fast typer wherever I end up and getting used to a new environment is kindof fun.
I would totally buy this keyboard if i was still using a standardish layout. I love the advantage so much i can never go back.
One thing I think helps: I've had blank keycaps for the better part of the last decade. There's at least no visual cue saying this key does that thing.
And now, I switch between my primary advantage layout to laptop keyboards (I have a few) all the time. I think all the switching between layouts just makes you better at whatever. I'm a pretty fast typer wherever I end up and getting used to a new environment is kindof fun.
I would totally buy this keyboard if i was still using a standardish layout. I love the advantage so much i can never go back.
I mean, indeed, we are free to disagree when it comes to personal preferences. One of my keyboards is Das Keyboard with blank key caps too. But I would've used that to booster my claim, not yours - I can use that blank keyboard specifically because it's standard and same as my other keyboards:-). I spent hard earned cash on the t25 ThinkPad so I could enjoy a few more years of good keyboard before I have to switch to some modern laptop atrocity.
If you are switching truly different layouts daily, are fully efficient and have instant muscle memory with all, and never lose a moment consciously or subconsciously looking for a key, absolutely more power to you. I do not work like that. Having to hunt for Home key when I want to hit control-home drives me bonkers. Not having space between f4 and f5 is as silly as red turning lights - strictly worse for no actual benefit. Half height laptop up and down arrows are abomination upon IT Gods. And yes I've been a grouchy old man since I was a teenager :->
If you are switching truly different layouts daily, are fully efficient and have instant muscle memory with all, and never lose a moment consciously or subconsciously looking for a key, absolutely more power to you. I do not work like that. Having to hunt for Home key when I want to hit control-home drives me bonkers. Not having space between f4 and f5 is as silly as red turning lights - strictly worse for no actual benefit. Half height laptop up and down arrows are abomination upon IT Gods. And yes I've been a grouchy old man since I was a teenager :->
The only thing that my next keyboard probably won't have is the numpad, because I don't use it, and having the mouse closer to my right hand would be a welcome convenience.
Other than that, a couple more keys, like for example a Hyper key or a higher-level Shift would be very welcome.
Other than that, a couple more keys, like for example a Hyper key or a higher-level Shift would be very welcome.
> Everyone is different, but personally I won’t buy a keyboard without separate Delete and Backspace keys, without Home/End/PgUp/PgDn/Insert keys, and without a dedicated Menu key [0], for any kind of serious work.
I've been using the HHKB keyboard [1] for over a year now, and I absolutely love it. You simply have to re-map your muscle memory for "PgUp" to be a chord (involving the function key naturally). I'd argue it's probably faster as a whole, because your hand has less distance to travel.
> I’d also rather do without an Fn key, as it messes up muscle memory from regular desktop keyboards.
I haven't had a problem switching between the HHKB and other keyboards; but in any case, the portability and the fact that it can have multiple connections means you can just use the same keyboard everywhere.
[1] https://www.hhkeyboard.com/uk/products/hybrid-type-s
Edited to add the reference
I've been using the HHKB keyboard [1] for over a year now, and I absolutely love it. You simply have to re-map your muscle memory for "PgUp" to be a chord (involving the function key naturally). I'd argue it's probably faster as a whole, because your hand has less distance to travel.
> I’d also rather do without an Fn key, as it messes up muscle memory from regular desktop keyboards.
I haven't had a problem switching between the HHKB and other keyboards; but in any case, the portability and the fact that it can have multiple connections means you can just use the same keyboard everywhere.
[1] https://www.hhkeyboard.com/uk/products/hybrid-type-s
Edited to add the reference
I’ve used the HHKB for a while in the late 90’s, but in the end it wasn’t for me. Chords tend to trigger my RSI, and a reduced need for chords just means better ergonomics to me.
Something I've been actively working on is chording with two hands.
For an example, I noticed that I habitually type & with only my right hand, twisting my wrist to press shift and 7 at the same time, which is awkward and painful if I do it too often.
The solution being to use the left pinky for the shift key and the right middle for the 7/&.
I agree the less chords the better, but for what's left, making sure chords are either ergonomic by themselves, or two handed, is a good way to keep typing for longer with less injury.
For an example, I noticed that I habitually type & with only my right hand, twisting my wrist to press shift and 7 at the same time, which is awkward and painful if I do it too often.
The solution being to use the left pinky for the shift key and the right middle for the 7/&.
I agree the less chords the better, but for what's left, making sure chords are either ergonomic by themselves, or two handed, is a good way to keep typing for longer with less injury.
I’m trying to do that as well. I’ve been thinking that it would be nice to have some software that would disable specific chords when you use the “wrong-sided” modifier key for it, in order to train yourself to use the right one.
I couldn't figure out how to do this with QMK, I had the same thought as you.
Ok, more accurately I figured out that it would involve writing nontrivial amounts of C, and I gave up. You can do anything with QMK if you're determined.
Ok, more accurately I figured out that it would involve writing nontrivial amounts of C, and I gave up. You can do anything with QMK if you're determined.
That's a standard compact Mac layout, so muscle memory will work fine for Mac users. Maybe Fn is elsewhere for the PC one, but I detect a tiny bias in the website.
Whilst I always used a full keyboard with a PC, for the reasons you give, the Mac has practically all of those things mapped to cursors + meta keys so your hands don't need to move from the normal typing position. I now see the extended bit of the full keyboard as dead space that makes me reach further to get to mouse/trackpad. But as you say, everyone is different.
Whilst I always used a full keyboard with a PC, for the reasons you give, the Mac has practically all of those things mapped to cursors + meta keys so your hands don't need to move from the normal typing position. I now see the extended bit of the full keyboard as dead space that makes me reach further to get to mouse/trackpad. But as you say, everyone is different.
Right. I use a left-handed mouse due to RSI, so 100% keyboards are not a problem for me, and moving my hands around a bit rather than using chords also helps with the RSI. It also reduces the complexity of chords when using keyboard shortcuts like Ctrl+Shift+PgUp, or NumPad-specific keyboard shortcuts (like Ctrl+NumPad-“+” to auto-fit columns in grid views, or Ctrl+NumPad-“*” to expand all subfolders), which I do a lot.
A lot of Mac users are going to be pretty used to TouchID by now, unfortunately
I wonder if that could be partially mitigated through the use of a dedicated space for a YubiKey
I wonder if that could be partially mitigated through the use of a dedicated space for a YubiKey
I very much enjoyed the [Vortex Race 3] which is 75% with all the F-keys and the home/delete/pg key cluster in a line down the right. It works really well and lets you switch between Mac/Windows button order for the CMD/Windows/ctrl buttons in the bottom left through a keyboard shortcut if I remember correctly. It comes with both colourful _and_ grey keys for the clusters! A really handsome and well thought-out keyboard if you want something nice without getting sucked into the keyboard modding rabbit-hole.
Unfortunately a friend spilled coffee on mine, and it's hard to justify buying another one at >£100. And it's often out of stock whenever I do manage to justify it to myself!
[Vortex Race 3]: https://spotonpccases.co.uk/product/vortex-race-3-mechanical...
Unfortunately a friend spilled coffee on mine, and it's hard to justify buying another one at >£100. And it's often out of stock whenever I do manage to justify it to myself!
[Vortex Race 3]: https://spotonpccases.co.uk/product/vortex-race-3-mechanical...
I have been using this keyboard since 2018. I have giant hands and somehow it works really well. I barely have to move my hands at all.
> and without a dedicated Menu key [0], for any kind of serious work.
I'll bite; how useful is the Menu key really? Is there something in your workflow that is benefitted by having it? Totally agree with Home/End/Insert/Delete being required on any keyboard I use.
I'll bite; how useful is the Menu key really? Is there something in your workflow that is benefitted by having it? Totally agree with Home/End/Insert/Delete being required on any keyboard I use.
It puts an extra key in that area, giving me one more candidate to use as Compose. (Of four laptop designs, I think I’ve used RMenu as Compose on two of them, and RAlt on the other two, which I think have RMenu as Fn+RAlt or Fn+RCtrl, one each. It depends on the positioning of Space to a considerable extent.)
While on the topic of what keys are on the keyboard and while thinking of Fn keys, I really, really, really wish that keyboards would give a key code for Fn+___ for each and every non-modifier key. It’s absurd that such a simple opportunity for good macro-capability is discarded, and you can only use Fn with the few keys (on laptops, commonly around 16–20) the manufacturer deigned to hook up (e.g. Fn+F1 as XF86AudioMute, Fn+F7 as XF86BrightnessUp, Fn+Space as PrintScreen, Fn+Left as Home, that kind of thing) and the rest are just swallowed in the keyboard firmware. How is it that as far as I can tell no one has done such an obvious and obviously useful thing?
While on the topic of what keys are on the keyboard and while thinking of Fn keys, I really, really, really wish that keyboards would give a key code for Fn+___ for each and every non-modifier key. It’s absurd that such a simple opportunity for good macro-capability is discarded, and you can only use Fn with the few keys (on laptops, commonly around 16–20) the manufacturer deigned to hook up (e.g. Fn+F1 as XF86AudioMute, Fn+F7 as XF86BrightnessUp, Fn+Space as PrintScreen, Fn+Left as Home, that kind of thing) and the rest are just swallowed in the keyboard firmware. How is it that as far as I can tell no one has done such an obvious and obviously useful thing?
I use it all the time in IDEs, File Explorer, Word/Excel/Outlook, basically everywhere there are context menus based on keyboard focus. It reduces the need to use the mouse, in particular for functions that are only available via the context menu and not via a main menu. It can also be quicker because you just press Menu followed by a letter key to invoke the function, and it’s easier on the hands because no modifier keys are involved.
It has saved me many times when the mouse failed. Especially in RDP sessions where the cursor sometimes develops an offset, ie click location is suddenly a fixed number of pixels away from the cursor tip, making it incredibly difficult to click on things.
I also use it every now and then to change things up when I feel the RSI sneaking.
I also use it every now and then to change things up when I feel the RSI sneaking.
> ... without Home/End/PgUp/PgDn/Insert keys ...
My laptop has Home/End/PgUp/PgDn as the Fn function on the Arrow keys, and its actually really good. So good I've actually setup other machines with the same shortcuts wherever I can.
My laptop has Home/End/PgUp/PgDn as the Fn function on the Arrow keys, and its actually really good. So good I've actually setup other machines with the same shortcuts wherever I can.
Yeah, I use Home/End/PgUo/PgDn constantly, so much that having to use any modifier for it is just not acceptable to me. A secondary factor is that there are often keyboard shortcuts that combine Home/End/PgUp/PgDn with (combinations of) Shift/Ctrl/Alt, so having to add another modifier to those just makes it really inconvenient.
There is a sweet spot of the number of keys available for use without modifier keys, and that sweet spot may be different for everyone, but it is closer to 100 for me.
There is a sweet spot of the number of keys available for use without modifier keys, and that sweet spot may be different for everyone, but it is closer to 100 for me.
Having Home/End/PgUp/PgDn bound to the Fn key is much more convenient for me, though.
After all, you already do all other cursor manipulation with a combination of the arrow keys and Ctrl/Alt/Shift. From a muscle memory perspective, having the 'beginning/end of line' and 'previous/next page' actions as just another modifier is much more natural than having to use an entirely separate set of keys for this.
After all, you already do all other cursor manipulation with a combination of the arrow keys and Ctrl/Alt/Shift. From a muscle memory perspective, having the 'beginning/end of line' and 'previous/next page' actions as just another modifier is much more natural than having to use an entirely separate set of keys for this.
Everyone is different, but when I got my first 60 percent keyboard, I started using the SpaceFN layout through the TouchCursor tool on Windows and now I can't live without it anymore, even on full size keyboards.
> I’d also rather do without an Fn key, as it messes up muscle memory from regular desktop keyboards.
As someone who recently switched to an Ortholinear layout, it's not nearly as bad as you think. I got messed up when switching back to a standard layout for the first maybe week or so. After that I can switch between either layout with absolutely no problem. While you may be different, you're probably underselling your own muscle memory.
> I won’t buy a keyboard without separate Delete and Backspace keys, without Home/End/PgUp/PgDn/Insert keys, and without a dedicated Menu key [0], for any kind of serious work.
This probably depends on the work you do. I've found myself using those keys all more often and faster when I bind them to alpha keys with a modifier. As someone who types all day in VIM, I can bind Home/End/Pgup/PgDn/etc. to keys that have analogous functions (i/a/u/d respectively), which has been great for me.
As someone who recently switched to an Ortholinear layout, it's not nearly as bad as you think. I got messed up when switching back to a standard layout for the first maybe week or so. After that I can switch between either layout with absolutely no problem. While you may be different, you're probably underselling your own muscle memory.
> I won’t buy a keyboard without separate Delete and Backspace keys, without Home/End/PgUp/PgDn/Insert keys, and without a dedicated Menu key [0], for any kind of serious work.
This probably depends on the work you do. I've found myself using those keys all more often and faster when I bind them to alpha keys with a modifier. As someone who types all day in VIM, I can bind Home/End/Pgup/PgDn/etc. to keys that have analogous functions (i/a/u/d respectively), which has been great for me.
I use a 84 keyboard. It is basically a laptop keyboard layout and it works great for me. It has del, backspace, esc and 4 arrows. It shares the function keys with media keys but I have it using function keys as its default and works great as a layout. I don't know why it just isn't the most popular layout.
Yea, it seems like this footprint could accommodate a 75% design. The big one is the Del key, it's quite inconvenient to have to use a key combo for such a common action. But if the design allows swapping the rotary knob for a Del key then it would be acceptable.
As someone with decades of full-size keyboard use and corresponding muscle memory, I moved recently to a 60% keyboard.
Initially I experienced some difficulty getting used to the lack of cursor keys, delete, escape. But with a short bit of time (couple months) I find I don't miss them anymore, and in fact appreciate the closer vicinity of these keys now.
However, the key thing is good layers, and buttons that can access them. The left half of my space bar gets to my main layer.
It's so good that I now find it annoying to move my hand to get to the cursor keys.
60% also means the mouse is a lot closer for me.
I don't get the appeal of low profile, and these days I think I'd want a split.
Initially I experienced some difficulty getting used to the lack of cursor keys, delete, escape. But with a short bit of time (couple months) I find I don't miss them anymore, and in fact appreciate the closer vicinity of these keys now.
However, the key thing is good layers, and buttons that can access them. The left half of my space bar gets to my main layer.
It's so good that I now find it annoying to move my hand to get to the cursor keys.
60% also means the mouse is a lot closer for me.
I don't get the appeal of low profile, and these days I think I'd want a split.
There's a lot of wasted space on the right side of this keyboard where they could have easily put the Del/PgUp/PgDn keys right there. I don't know why they didn't.
Judging from the USB-C at the top and other tact/slide switches on the side, my guess is that the MCU and a prismatic battery of sorts (500mAh Li-ion?) occupies that space. A low profile design will always have some tradeoffs; perhaps an oled in that space is possible with a cutout for a badge.
I suspect they need that space to house the internal electronics like the keyboard controller.
Controllers are really small these days and fit just fine in the gaps between keys (see link below for a typical example). It’s almost certainly mostly for the battery.
https://rama.works/updates/2020/4/24/m50-a-pcb-inventory-2-b...
https://rama.works/updates/2020/4/24/m50-a-pcb-inventory-2-b...
You are correct! There was not enough space below the keys due to the device's low profile. So the right hand area houses the MCU, USB C port, battery, as well as the 2 slide switches and button that poke out the side of the case.
Yep, everyone is different indeed. I've been using 30% keyboards (30, 33 or 36 keys) for 3+ years now. I used 40's for around 2 years before that.
Now I can't stand any keyboard that requires my hands to move from the home position. Also being able to carry my keyboard to anywhere is a big plus for me.
The dedicated keyboard menu key stopped working in Gmail about 6 months ago. Has anyone figured out how to get it to work again?
So this isn't an attack or anything, but that website makes me just click off. It is hard to see any real information about the keyboard, I couldn't even find a picture of the whole keyboard on the landing page to look at. I think the people who want a low profile minimal keyboard probably also just want simple website.
It’s very impressive, but you’re in a crowded market. If I have one piece of advice, it’s go international if you’re having sale problems. No one is really selling anything but US keyboards. I had to resort to custom designed keys to get a Canadian Multilingual.
Looks striking, but does this actually exist, or is this (so far) just a design project? There's a lot of promises here - recycled materials, machined aluminum, assembled in London - but I don't see any evidence that a single keyboard has actually been built yet.
I know, you gotta fake it 'til you make it, but I think it's important to be honest with your customers. We've all seen plenty of speculative designs that sound perfect because they never end up having to meet reality by actually getting manufactured. Is this another one?
I know, you gotta fake it 'til you make it, but I think it's important to be honest with your customers. We've all seen plenty of speculative designs that sound perfect because they never end up having to meet reality by actually getting manufactured. Is this another one?
I'm not a member of the team, but was contracted for the PCB design as an external freelancer - I have one of the PCB prototypes sitting in a shelf, and the designer has a fully functional prototype with aluminum case and keycaps already. Bit dusty, but here's my proto with a ridiculously oversized battery (that would probably run for a year or so without charging): https://mpwr.xyz/blog/2022/pcb_1.jpg
This will most likely not be the final PCB revision as we still have ideas for improvements, but it should prove that the board is more than a design study already.
This will most likely not be the final PCB revision as we still have ideas for improvements, but it should prove that the board is more than a design study already.
How much does a pcb like this cost for a small prototyping batch of 1 or 5 for example?
Depends a lot. If you want it fully assembled, you have to go to larger fab houses like PCBway, and spend a few hundred bucks on a 5pc batch. If you can hand-solder some parts (in this case, the Bluetooth module and the USB connector) and design the rest around jlcpcbs libraries, you can get away with 20-30USD per unit (MOQ of 5) plus shipping/customs. Then add another 10USD for the bluetooth module and USB connector.
A simpler wired design like my E80-1800 (https://github.com/ebastler/E80-1800) can be completely assembled by jlc for ~30ish USD per unit.
Oddly enough, small-batch prototyping at jlc can be cheaper than medium sized (50-150 pc) runs at other fabs.
Hope this doesn't sound like an ad, I've compared a lot of prices and nobody came close to jlcpcb, but With their limitations (limited stock, limited finish/color choices, frequently chnaging stocks and component prices) and sometimes far-from-ideal QC (some scratches can happen, in rare cases even missing components that were present in the BOM) they are not really my first choice for production runs. For prototypes or small unofficial-ish batches with a few friends though - god tier.
A simpler wired design like my E80-1800 (https://github.com/ebastler/E80-1800) can be completely assembled by jlc for ~30ish USD per unit.
Oddly enough, small-batch prototyping at jlc can be cheaper than medium sized (50-150 pc) runs at other fabs.
Hope this doesn't sound like an ad, I've compared a lot of prices and nobody came close to jlcpcb, but With their limitations (limited stock, limited finish/color choices, frequently chnaging stocks and component prices) and sometimes far-from-ideal QC (some scratches can happen, in rare cases even missing components that were present in the BOM) they are not really my first choice for production runs. For prototypes or small unofficial-ish batches with a few friends though - god tier.
> Hope this doesn't sound like an ad…
It is actually very informative, I was very surprised to learn that one could get fully assembled prototypes for a few hundred bucks.
It is actually very informative, I was very surprised to learn that one could get fully assembled prototypes for a few hundred bucks.
Seconding this. At the top end of the range, about $150 / each if you buy 15 of them at a reputable factory. Half of that is components, a tenth is the PCB, rest is assembly.
If you are going to hand-assemble a macropad or something, you end up paying more in shipping than you pay for a set of 5 PCBs.
Also, most factories allow you to calculate the price on their website! Look for PCBway, Elecrow, JLCPCB, OSH Park, or a dozen others.
If you are going to hand-assemble a macropad or something, you end up paying more in shipping than you pay for a set of 5 PCBs.
Also, most factories allow you to calculate the price on their website! Look for PCBway, Elecrow, JLCPCB, OSH Park, or a dozen others.
[deleted]
You know, it hadn't crossed my mind when I first browsed the page, but now that I've read your comment, it seems very likely that this is entirely an art concept with 0 progress made towards making it a real product.
And I agree about your conclusion that this level of detail making it close to dishonesty, rather than faking till you make it.
Hopefully you're wrong.
And I agree about your conclusion that this level of detail making it close to dishonesty, rather than faking till you make it.
Hopefully you're wrong.
How can it be dishonesty when he doesn’t promise anything? He shows the product and invites you to get updates on the way forward. In addition both he and the electronics designer answer questions here.
I meant it would be dishonest only if it was a made up page with no progress made towards building it. Happy to hear that's not the case.
This level of detail is mandatory to have a spec that can actually be executed at some point.
Looks great, and it's a huge achievement to design something so sleek and alluring like this. Bravo on including an encoder. I would be interested in buying, but I can't ever go back to a staggered layout. Even straight but ortholinear boards are a strain. Something like the Keyboardio Atreus with an extra column on the sides would be ideal- small enough to travel with, enough keys to not need a huge amount of layers.
All that effort, the modern components, the slim design, the monobody, the Bluetooth, the rotary encoder. Beautiful.
And it isn't ortholinear.
The layout is designed to 1880s specifications.
Will you share plans for self fab with an alternative key organization?
And it isn't ortholinear.
The layout is designed to 1880s specifications.
Will you share plans for self fab with an alternative key organization?
Just wondering, but is ortholinear actually better? It's not like my fingers are 4 parallel lines. And I don't have hands perfectly straight on the keyboard either - hands come in at an angle.
Note that on normal keyboard all alpha keys are staggered to the left. For both hands. So, this stagger is not helping you to keep your left hand at correct angle.
"Grid" ortholinear is not an ultimate solution either, but it is more comfy (from personal experience).
There is a short video about ortho vs stagger https://youtu.be/Ho_CFfdsmc8
"Grid" ortholinear is not an ultimate solution either, but it is more comfy (from personal experience).
There is a short video about ortho vs stagger https://youtu.be/Ho_CFfdsmc8
That is strange now that you mention it, I have a split keyboard and it really should be staggered the other way on the left side but isn't. Also, I think the top row stagger is a bit too large but the bottom row stagger is way too much. I haven't tried the linear but my impression is that a slight stagger in the correct direction for each hand would be best, although linear seems likely to be close enough in about the same way that the top row stagger is close enough on the right hand.
One thing I like about my keyboard is that home, page up, page down, and end are on the left so that it is symmetrical. It also has a tenting feature that I like, having the keys tilted at an angle is perfect for me. Both of these also allow the mouse to be a bit closer. I also like that the space bars aren't as large, although I wish they were still a bit smaller.
https://shop.goldtouch.com/products/goldtouch-go2-wired-mobi...
I want to remap that useless print screen button near the arrows to a delete key, which I found from a previous keyboard is really handy to have near the arrow keys.
One thing I like about my keyboard is that home, page up, page down, and end are on the left so that it is symmetrical. It also has a tenting feature that I like, having the keys tilted at an angle is perfect for me. Both of these also allow the mouse to be a bit closer. I also like that the space bars aren't as large, although I wish they were still a bit smaller.
https://shop.goldtouch.com/products/goldtouch-go2-wired-mobi...
I want to remap that useless print screen button near the arrows to a delete key, which I found from a previous keyboard is really handy to have near the arrow keys.
> slight stagger in the correct direction for each hand would be best
Thing is, if you have split keyboard with no stagger (grid) or vertical stagger, you can adjust halves of keyboard to suit your needs. This way you can make virtually any angle. Something like this https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/
> page up, page down, and end are on the left so that it is symmetrical
This is actually nice layout. I also see how can this be useful in gaming (few additional keys for pinkie).
Thing is, if you have split keyboard with no stagger (grid) or vertical stagger, you can adjust halves of keyboard to suit your needs. This way you can make virtually any angle. Something like this https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/
> page up, page down, and end are on the left so that it is symmetrical
This is actually nice layout. I also see how can this be useful in gaming (few additional keys for pinkie).
This comment section is full of people complaining about a 70% keyboard not being a full-size keyboard, but that is what makes it a 70% keyboard.
If it doens't fit your preferences or use-case then you are not the customer but it seems bizarre to focus so much on the sizing.
If it doens't fit your preferences or use-case then you are not the customer but it seems bizarre to focus so much on the sizing.
This chicken sandwich is the worst hamburger I’ve ever tasted
I suspect it's because keyboards are so personal for people who type a lot; it's very easy to see a keyboard and think, "That looks great, except that...". For me, when I see a 60% keyboard, I think, "Okay, but I want my damn separate function keys, arrow keys, and at least dedicated page up/down buttons"; when I see a 70% keyboard, I think, "Yeah, like that."
Personally, I'm typing on a Matias Mini Tactile Pro right now, and I suspect my dream keyboard would just be one of these with a design that didn't feel stuck twenty years in the past. I alternate between this and a Vortex Race 3, I think it is, with Cherry MX clears.
My biggest complaint with the Altar I isn't the layout, it's that it has no switch options, and I don't want a linear switch; that alone makes it Not For Me. (I also don't particularly like the choice to make GIANT NUMBERS; the marketing copy talks about being "typographically balanced" and I think, "But is it?") But it looks like a nice keyboard, and kudos to the designer for pulling it off.
Personally, I'm typing on a Matias Mini Tactile Pro right now, and I suspect my dream keyboard would just be one of these with a design that didn't feel stuck twenty years in the past. I alternate between this and a Vortex Race 3, I think it is, with Cherry MX clears.
My biggest complaint with the Altar I isn't the layout, it's that it has no switch options, and I don't want a linear switch; that alone makes it Not For Me. (I also don't particularly like the choice to make GIANT NUMBERS; the marketing copy talks about being "typographically balanced" and I think, "But is it?") But it looks like a nice keyboard, and kudos to the designer for pulling it off.
It's super funny reading this comment section having just recently started looking into custom mechs. My reaction on looking at the website was - whoa, a nice 70% keyboard, so nice to see a custom build that actually has function keys. Then getting to the comments being pretty shocked at how few people seem to actually be familiar with the concept of 70% keyboards.
I always kind of figured the mech scene was popular with tech enthusiasts but I guess it's still a niche regardless.
Anyways, this is a really nice looking keyboard. It's also really nice to see a custom mech made for macs, but I do agree with other comments that outlined how hard it is to actually take in the keyboard. There isn't just a normal full on picture of it.
I always kind of figured the mech scene was popular with tech enthusiasts but I guess it's still a niche regardless.
Anyways, this is a really nice looking keyboard. It's also really nice to see a custom mech made for macs, but I do agree with other comments that outlined how hard it is to actually take in the keyboard. There isn't just a normal full on picture of it.
I for one am not complaining, but responding with my thoughts, as requested.
100% agreed. I'd buy this if the price is right. The size and aesthetics are right up my alley. I currently use a 60% keyboard and really like it.
Isn't it a 60%?
I believe the fn row makes it more of a 70%. Ive been using a Nuphy nutype F1 for the past year as a 60% keyboard.
I didn't particularly seek a mechanical keyboard but the smaller size enabled having a 13" raised tablet 'ergonomic mobile computer' - https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/comments/vzs8mm...
I didn't particularly seek a mechanical keyboard but the smaller size enabled having a 13" raised tablet 'ergonomic mobile computer' - https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/comments/vzs8mm...
No, it has arrow and F keys.
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Recently, I bought Keychron K3 which seems to be a comparable devices. A key feature for me, are the F*-Keys, which are often not available in the small keyboard class.
One thing that bothers me: The Keychron K3 doesn't have a dongle. So unless your computer has booted, you need the cable (e.g. hard disk decryption)... As far as I can see it, the Altar I has a similar design.
To have a better cable experience I bought a magnetic usb-c cable [1] and wondered why they don't ship with such a cable, because I enjoy it so much.
[1] Not exactly the the same model, but something similar: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71dPOUWPPxL...
One thing that bothers me: The Keychron K3 doesn't have a dongle. So unless your computer has booted, you need the cable (e.g. hard disk decryption)... As far as I can see it, the Altar I has a similar design.
To have a better cable experience I bought a magnetic usb-c cable [1] and wondered why they don't ship with such a cable, because I enjoy it so much.
[1] Not exactly the the same model, but something similar: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71dPOUWPPxL...
Why is number row font emphasized?
No space between F keys. It helps find the keys faster, for example, in debugging case.
I’m happy with Fnatic mini streak keyboard so far.
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Kind of late but I'll add my 2 cents:
- Kudos for including the function keys. As a person who really dislikes the chording required by keyboards without them, I applaud your decision to include them.
- I'm curious as to how or whether this keyboard can have maintenance done to it? Given that this is likely not inexpensive, I would want to be able to replace key switches that fail. The same goes for the battery, which is likely to wear out sooner than the keys.
- My own preference only but I generally have no need of Bluetooth keyboards, preferring a wired USB connection for reliability. I hope that they will consider a less expensive version that omits Bluetooth functionality.
Aside from that, it looks like quite a promising product and I'll be looking forward to hearing about the price.
- Kudos for including the function keys. As a person who really dislikes the chording required by keyboards without them, I applaud your decision to include them.
- I'm curious as to how or whether this keyboard can have maintenance done to it? Given that this is likely not inexpensive, I would want to be able to replace key switches that fail. The same goes for the battery, which is likely to wear out sooner than the keys.
- My own preference only but I generally have no need of Bluetooth keyboards, preferring a wired USB connection for reliability. I hope that they will consider a less expensive version that omits Bluetooth functionality.
Aside from that, it looks like quite a promising product and I'll be looking forward to hearing about the price.
It's gorgeous, well done!
I'm aware that I'm a (perhaps tiny) minority here, but I patiently await the existence of a split-key ortholinear/ErgoDox layout with this kind of build quality and low-profile keys. My ErgoDox EZ is ok, but I'm still bitter about the manufacturer refusing to replace or even discount a deck which stopped working after 26 months (24 month warranty), and it's fairly thick and hard to transport.
Just putting that out there, the Keyboardio can't keep keyboards in stock and the two offerings from the EZ company sell briskly, I think the split-key ergonomic market is underserved, but it is much smaller than the 'normal' layout keyboard market.
I'd say it's hard to differentiate yourself in the standard-layouts game, except you clearly have! Best of luck.
I'm aware that I'm a (perhaps tiny) minority here, but I patiently await the existence of a split-key ortholinear/ErgoDox layout with this kind of build quality and low-profile keys. My ErgoDox EZ is ok, but I'm still bitter about the manufacturer refusing to replace or even discount a deck which stopped working after 26 months (24 month warranty), and it's fairly thick and hard to transport.
Just putting that out there, the Keyboardio can't keep keyboards in stock and the two offerings from the EZ company sell briskly, I think the split-key ergonomic market is underserved, but it is much smaller than the 'normal' layout keyboard market.
I'd say it's hard to differentiate yourself in the standard-layouts game, except you clearly have! Best of luck.
Quick thoughts in no particular order:
- nice design, something I'd love to have sitting on my desk
- like the raised look of some keys -- would have to try them out to see what it feels like
- really like the look of the rotary dial, BUT having something stick out does make it harder to slip into a pouch/bag. Also, thinking about the ergonomics of that, you have to lift your hand, move it away from you into the right corner and do a twisting movement. Not a speedy enough action to get much use, IMO. A scroll-wheel would be easier.
- pairing with 2 devices is great (essential these days)
- split keyboard is a deal-breaker for me personally; helps avoid inflammation in my shoulders / wrists (I use a Logitech K860)
- programmable f-keys?
- backlight would be very helpful at least along the f-key row (even for touch typists)
(edited/reformatted; can we get markdown in HN, please?)
- nice design, something I'd love to have sitting on my desk
- like the raised look of some keys -- would have to try them out to see what it feels like
- really like the look of the rotary dial, BUT having something stick out does make it harder to slip into a pouch/bag. Also, thinking about the ergonomics of that, you have to lift your hand, move it away from you into the right corner and do a twisting movement. Not a speedy enough action to get much use, IMO. A scroll-wheel would be easier.
- pairing with 2 devices is great (essential these days)
- split keyboard is a deal-breaker for me personally; helps avoid inflammation in my shoulders / wrists (I use a Logitech K860)
- programmable f-keys?
- backlight would be very helpful at least along the f-key row (even for touch typists)
(edited/reformatted; can we get markdown in HN, please?)
An easy solution for the rotary knob would be to include a second low-profile knob without the protruding finger-grab piece.
This looks like a nice keyboard, but I have the same concern about slipping it into a bag. I’d try to 3D-print a flat replacement knob if it didn’t include one out of the box.
This looks like a nice keyboard, but I have the same concern about slipping it into a bag. I’d try to 3D-print a flat replacement knob if it didn’t include one out of the box.
What's the point of the rotary control? How am I supossed to put it in my backpack with my laptops and books? It will end up breaking.
For some reason I expect it to be retractable, but I'm not sure if I'm imagining features. I'm also worried if it will break when a moron (i.e. me) is filling the backpack in a random order and quickly.
I really like this. I like that it's bluetooth _optional_ with multiple devices remembered, USB-C, has a command key and control key _separated_ (I'm well aware you can do this in firmware for other keyboards that support it), the much lower profile, and the typography.
I've gone through a few different mechanical keyboards including things from Ramaworks and every time I get fed up with the bulk, the tedium of lubing switches, finding good key caps _with_ the legends I want, and then trying to get things as quiet as possible without super mushy key presses. If this can solve that I will buy one instantly; and I've signed up for the waitlist.
I've gone through a few different mechanical keyboards including things from Ramaworks and every time I get fed up with the bulk, the tedium of lubing switches, finding good key caps _with_ the legends I want, and then trying to get things as quiet as possible without super mushy key presses. If this can solve that I will buy one instantly; and I've signed up for the waitlist.
I would love to get a similar keyboard but with a trackball instead of a rotary device and a couple of side buttons next to it.
The design of Enermax Aurora Micro Wireless rocks, I used it for 10+ years, although its trackball is of abysmal quality.
The design of Enermax Aurora Micro Wireless rocks, I used it for 10+ years, although its trackball is of abysmal quality.
What's the purpose of the rotary encoder?
On a laptop the number pad is deadly because the screen and the keyboard are fused together and to have the touchpad / spacebar aligned with the axis of the body all the laptop is shifted to the right.
On desktops I seldomly use the number pad but as I can shift the keyboard to the right so I have no problem buying keyboards with it. Unfortunately it moves the mouse further away and makes it more uncomfortable (timewise) to use.
If I'll ever use a desktop full time again I'll buy a USB touchpad and keep it where it rests on a laptop and use the mouse for games, not every year.
On a laptop the number pad is deadly because the screen and the keyboard are fused together and to have the touchpad / spacebar aligned with the axis of the body all the laptop is shifted to the right.
On desktops I seldomly use the number pad but as I can shift the keyboard to the right so I have no problem buying keyboards with it. Unfortunately it moves the mouse further away and makes it more uncomfortable (timewise) to use.
If I'll ever use a desktop full time again I'll buy a USB touchpad and keep it where it rests on a laptop and use the mouse for games, not every year.
>What's the purpose of the rotary encoder?
The ZMK firmware allows you to assign or map a wide range of keys and functions to it. The inclusion of an EC11 encoder has become a go-to trend, especially in the keyboard building community, and adopted by the established players. However, it is mostly a bit of novelty and redundant after a while and probably only gets used for the obvious media controls.
>I'll buy a USB touchpad and keep it where it rests on a laptop
You can acquire macropads in a plethora of configurations, from a single key to matrix of keys, only limited by the choice of MCU. All built using either traditional [key]switches and/or mix of encoders. The popular firmwares (QMK, KMK or ZMK) allow you to map the afore-mentioned, so you can choose to enter long IP addresses, purpose it for macros e.g Illustrator, Premiere, Blender, Ableton, Autodesk, Eagle etc., or just use it for regular cut-n-paste type jobs via the use of layers.
The ZMK firmware allows you to assign or map a wide range of keys and functions to it. The inclusion of an EC11 encoder has become a go-to trend, especially in the keyboard building community, and adopted by the established players. However, it is mostly a bit of novelty and redundant after a while and probably only gets used for the obvious media controls.
>I'll buy a USB touchpad and keep it where it rests on a laptop
You can acquire macropads in a plethora of configurations, from a single key to matrix of keys, only limited by the choice of MCU. All built using either traditional [key]switches and/or mix of encoders. The popular firmwares (QMK, KMK or ZMK) allow you to map the afore-mentioned, so you can choose to enter long IP addresses, purpose it for macros e.g Illustrator, Premiere, Blender, Ableton, Autodesk, Eagle etc., or just use it for regular cut-n-paste type jobs via the use of layers.
> What's the purpose of the rotary encoder?
Presumably thats configurable, but people usually use it for volume control which is quite nice to have
Presumably thats configurable, but people usually use it for volume control which is quite nice to have
My Logitech G710 was the first that had such a volume control, but when it died last year I decided having a similar volume control was a must for any replacement candidate. Having it be remappable is a very nice bonus in my view.
I love so much about this! A few thoughts:
I love that it's a proper UK mac layout. This is so hard to find in the mechanical keyboard world.
I'm not sure about the mix of key profiles. I'm sure you've tested it (or are testing it) but I think a version where every key had the same profile as the modifiers would be stellar.
The rotary encoder is cool, but sticks out way too much. I'd buy a keyboard like this to be portable, and the encoder gets in the way of that.
I'd love a ctrl keycap to replace the capslock as I always map that, but that wouldn't be a dealbreaker.
I love that it's a proper UK mac layout. This is so hard to find in the mechanical keyboard world.
I'm not sure about the mix of key profiles. I'm sure you've tested it (or are testing it) but I think a version where every key had the same profile as the modifiers would be stellar.
The rotary encoder is cool, but sticks out way too much. I'd buy a keyboard like this to be portable, and the encoder gets in the way of that.
I'd love a ctrl keycap to replace the capslock as I always map that, but that wouldn't be a dealbreaker.
It looks really nice; the font is a great choice. However, I've got more keyboards than I really need that are very similar to the featured one, so I'm not interested. HN reader cantSpellSober makes a number of good suggestions, and I'll add one more. I would like more keyboards that let the thumbs do more work.
The spacebars on Apple laptops are shorter, on my current Apple laptop the left end of the spacebar starts between the X and C key and extends to the boundary on the right between the M and the < key. This is much shorter than the keyboard in the featured article. This allows me the use the option and the command keys on each side of the keyboard with my thumbs. Its a bit awkward, but much better than almost all full sized keyboards with really long spacebars.
The Moonlander, Kinesis Advantage, Keyboard.io, and the Truly Ergonomic Cleave keyboard all give the thumbs a few easy to use keys. These can generally be bound to Ctrl, Alt, Backspace, ESC or other keys commonly used when doing programming. I've got a number of these keyboards and I much prefer them. Just having a split spacebar would allow Vim or Emacs users a convenient leader key.
One other point, I place very little value on media keys and analog value controls. I'm mostly typing while coding, adjusting volume isn't something I do except when playing games or creating media assets and even then it comes up very rarely.
The spacebars on Apple laptops are shorter, on my current Apple laptop the left end of the spacebar starts between the X and C key and extends to the boundary on the right between the M and the < key. This is much shorter than the keyboard in the featured article. This allows me the use the option and the command keys on each side of the keyboard with my thumbs. Its a bit awkward, but much better than almost all full sized keyboards with really long spacebars.
The Moonlander, Kinesis Advantage, Keyboard.io, and the Truly Ergonomic Cleave keyboard all give the thumbs a few easy to use keys. These can generally be bound to Ctrl, Alt, Backspace, ESC or other keys commonly used when doing programming. I've got a number of these keyboards and I much prefer them. Just having a split spacebar would allow Vim or Emacs users a convenient leader key.
One other point, I place very little value on media keys and analog value controls. I'm mostly typing while coding, adjusting volume isn't something I do except when playing games or creating media assets and even then it comes up very rarely.
I'll state my requirements - for anyone interested in meeting them:
I have an OLKB preonic. And I used QMK to significantly modify my layout. I started out with the modified Colemak - but the re-arranged the keys to move keys which require the index finger to move to the side - on the QWERTY that would for example be G and H . I moved B and K forexample where Z and X are on the Qwerty - and moved Z and X to the number row. The numbers itself appear as a layer when i need them.
Peter Norvig has an article called mayzner : https://norvig.com/mayzner.html - i wrote a program to analyse the frequency of bigrams/trigrams, 4-grams and then programmed them as shortcuts to the keys - using the lower / raise
This means i can type conversation as : con ver sa tion - where con is a trigram , ver is a trigram and tion is a 4-gram. s and a need to be typed out.
my needs : 1. MCU should have more ROM for writing the new preonic has 64KB. 2. Columnar layout - Split keyboard would be ideal.
Reasons for more ROM - you can program a lot more common words in it and Columnar layout would be easier on the fingers.
I've checked out a lot of keyboards - The Iris is good - but the ROM is only 32Kb. The Moonlander is too expensive for me - i cant justify the price to myself right now.
I have an OLKB preonic. And I used QMK to significantly modify my layout. I started out with the modified Colemak - but the re-arranged the keys to move keys which require the index finger to move to the side - on the QWERTY that would for example be G and H . I moved B and K forexample where Z and X are on the Qwerty - and moved Z and X to the number row. The numbers itself appear as a layer when i need them.
Peter Norvig has an article called mayzner : https://norvig.com/mayzner.html - i wrote a program to analyse the frequency of bigrams/trigrams, 4-grams and then programmed them as shortcuts to the keys - using the lower / raise
This means i can type conversation as : con ver sa tion - where con is a trigram , ver is a trigram and tion is a 4-gram. s and a need to be typed out.
my needs : 1. MCU should have more ROM for writing the new preonic has 64KB. 2. Columnar layout - Split keyboard would be ideal.
Reasons for more ROM - you can program a lot more common words in it and Columnar layout would be easier on the fingers.
I've checked out a lot of keyboards - The Iris is good - but the ROM is only 32Kb. The Moonlander is too expensive for me - i cant justify the price to myself right now.
What typing speed do you get with this approach?
I was consistently hitting 40-50 on MonkeyType - but while transporting the keyboard - i damaged it a bit. so now out of touch. I was practising about 20 mins every day for about 50 days - with misses on days when i had a lot of work. But i know that my speed would increase. Now when i see words - i can see the trigrams and I can visually break them down.
I am confident i would be able to reach 70 if i practice more. The main issue is that my speed (40-50) feels so slow that in my day to day - I used Qwerty and had not fully switched over.
I am confident i would be able to reach 70 if i practice more. The main issue is that my speed (40-50) feels so slow that in my day to day - I used Qwerty and had not fully switched over.
Interesting. To me, even 70 sounds quite low compared to the effort involved, and probably more mentally taxing. Out of curiosity, what is your motivation behind the experiment?
The initial mental effort is high. But the trigrams are hashed to the letters on the keyboard. so "con" is hashed to for example Lower + C. So that helps. Also - after sometime you start seeing the common 3/4-grams - tion , the, and etc. Then it starts to become like a game with a dopamine feedback loop. Every time you hit 2 keys and get 3 or 4 letters out - you start getting a high.
>Out of curiosity, what is your motivation behind the experiment? I watched a video of NoThisIsJohn typing at 200+ words per minute. I know i cant hit those speeds, but i was wondering what hacks i could do to the keyboard to get as fast as i can.
I just wanted to hack typing. I even thought of double pressing keys - for example bigrams. I came up with a new layout. When i read about the norman layout - it is criticised for same finger bigrams. But what i thought is, if I put the bigram keys near each other - then I would be able to press those with a single finger press - if the finger overlaps the 2 keys on the edge. but for that you need key wells - even at the edges of the keys - to give that tactile feeling. Similar to what the thinkpad has at the edge of the G, H and B keys . This would allow you to press 2 keys (and maybe more with a correctly designed keycap set) at the same time. But I would have to design new keycaps for something like this. And I thought of writing to Signature plastic - but I dont think i have that much money right now - but maybe a little later.
I also thought of 3 dimensional approach. Which is to insert vowel keys between 2 keys - exactly like the thinkpad Red trackball - but at a lower height as compared to the bigram consonants. This would require a special MCU and n-key rollover detection - to check if the 3rd key is pressed. If you want to press 3 keys - you would have to press deeper - so that the deeper sandwiched vowel key also gets depressed.
It would need a new PCB design and I started reading up and watching videos on PCB design and Keyboard design.
Anyways, If any Keyboard designer is reading this - reach out to me
>Out of curiosity, what is your motivation behind the experiment? I watched a video of NoThisIsJohn typing at 200+ words per minute. I know i cant hit those speeds, but i was wondering what hacks i could do to the keyboard to get as fast as i can.
I just wanted to hack typing. I even thought of double pressing keys - for example bigrams. I came up with a new layout. When i read about the norman layout - it is criticised for same finger bigrams. But what i thought is, if I put the bigram keys near each other - then I would be able to press those with a single finger press - if the finger overlaps the 2 keys on the edge. but for that you need key wells - even at the edges of the keys - to give that tactile feeling. Similar to what the thinkpad has at the edge of the G, H and B keys . This would allow you to press 2 keys (and maybe more with a correctly designed keycap set) at the same time. But I would have to design new keycaps for something like this. And I thought of writing to Signature plastic - but I dont think i have that much money right now - but maybe a little later.
I also thought of 3 dimensional approach. Which is to insert vowel keys between 2 keys - exactly like the thinkpad Red trackball - but at a lower height as compared to the bigram consonants. This would require a special MCU and n-key rollover detection - to check if the 3rd key is pressed. If you want to press 3 keys - you would have to press deeper - so that the deeper sandwiched vowel key also gets depressed.
It would need a new PCB design and I started reading up and watching videos on PCB design and Keyboard design.
Anyways, If any Keyboard designer is reading this - reach out to me
I'm assuming we're referring to 70 words per minute here? In that case I'd have to agree that while 70 is plenty fast for most practical applications, it seems low for the amount of complexity involved.
For me, I don't type faster than I do because I can't consistently move my fingers faster while maintaining high accuracy. However, that is without any n-grams or other complexities.
OTOH, if you trade off required movement for mental complexity, you might bottleneck on your thinking speed instead of your finger speed. Maybe that's the reason the grandparent isn't/wasn't going faster.
For me, I don't type faster than I do because I can't consistently move my fingers faster while maintaining high accuracy. However, that is without any n-grams or other complexities.
OTOH, if you trade off required movement for mental complexity, you might bottleneck on your thinking speed instead of your finger speed. Maybe that's the reason the grandparent isn't/wasn't going faster.
Yes. I would switch over when i reached 70 words per minute.
NoThisIsJohn typing at 200+ words per minute:
https://youtu.be/oOdfefV2R1I
https://youtu.be/oOdfefV2R1I
Those giant numbers in a different font from the numbers on the f-keys sure are a choice you made.
I noticed that the audio control keys (back, play/pause, skip) and mute/unmute keys use different F keys on this keyboard (F9-F12) than they are on my keychron, external mac keyboards, and internal mac keyboard (F7-F10).
This keyboard also lacks volume up/down controls.
I wonder why? I understand the lack of backlight control (I don't think this keyboard has a backlight?) and leaving out mission control and expose since those keys have changed every few years in macOS. But volume control is a strange one to omit. Maybe that's what the "rotary encoder" does? This webpage does not make the purpose of the rotary clear, unfortunately.
Moreover, it's strange to use different function keys for these functions for... no apparent reason. Especially if you're not going to put any primary function on F3-F8, why not stay consistent for muscle memory reasons?
I'm also curious if this keyboard HAS to use bluetooth, or if it's capable of wired control via the usb-c cable like my keychron. I hate bluetooth lag, so that's a dealbreaker for me. This webpage should clarify.
This keyboard looks pretty nice, otherwise. As someone who doesn't care to ever use page up/page down/home/end keys, I'll definitely check it out if something ever happens to my K2.
This keyboard also lacks volume up/down controls.
I wonder why? I understand the lack of backlight control (I don't think this keyboard has a backlight?) and leaving out mission control and expose since those keys have changed every few years in macOS. But volume control is a strange one to omit. Maybe that's what the "rotary encoder" does? This webpage does not make the purpose of the rotary clear, unfortunately.
Moreover, it's strange to use different function keys for these functions for... no apparent reason. Especially if you're not going to put any primary function on F3-F8, why not stay consistent for muscle memory reasons?
I'm also curious if this keyboard HAS to use bluetooth, or if it's capable of wired control via the usb-c cable like my keychron. I hate bluetooth lag, so that's a dealbreaker for me. This webpage should clarify.
This keyboard looks pretty nice, otherwise. As someone who doesn't care to ever use page up/page down/home/end keys, I'll definitely check it out if something ever happens to my K2.
- The keyboard looks beautiful.
- Your website looks beautiful.
- I immediately wanted to own one.
I signed up for updates, but it would be good to get a feel for how far along you are in the design and production process.
- Your website looks beautiful.
- I immediately wanted to own one.
I signed up for updates, but it would be good to get a feel for how far along you are in the design and production process.
I wouldn't use this at all!
Yeah it looks nice and may feel nice for the first 30 minutes and may fetch some nice compliments from the co-workers.
but i would want a wide comfortable and ergonomic split keyboard instead, which won't push me to slouch and force my wide shoulders in an uncomfortable position for the next 8 hours. split keyboard and a trackball mouse are must these days with all kinds of wrist, shoulder and back pain problems.
Yeah it looks nice and may feel nice for the first 30 minutes and may fetch some nice compliments from the co-workers.
but i would want a wide comfortable and ergonomic split keyboard instead, which won't push me to slouch and force my wide shoulders in an uncomfortable position for the next 8 hours. split keyboard and a trackball mouse are must these days with all kinds of wrist, shoulder and back pain problems.
I hate the aesthetic of your webpage. Don't change my cursor. It's incredibly distracting. The text is way too large and makes scrolling a pain. It's an extremely irritating page.
Also your Contact page directs to nowhere on your About page.
Maybe it's a deliberate decision to filter only for people who are really interested in a keyboard like this, but I wouldn't buy a product from someone who has made the website design choices that you have.
Maybe it's a deliberate decision to filter only for people who are really interested in a keyboard like this, but I wouldn't buy a product from someone who has made the website design choices that you have.
This looks beautiful, but personally I'd like a full sized keyboard with a numeric keypad, and the usual complement of Home, Insert, PgDown, PgUp etc.
Also, what is pricing like?
Also, what is pricing like?
I've been looking a lot at keyboards but have spent $0 on keyboards so far. This is the first keyboard I may actually consider buying. For a change, it looks like it has been designed by a person who actually digs typing.
I don't care about clickyness, or what switches does it have. This keyboard is the first I've seen that has a design that will actually allow finding keys by touching and feeling them, not by looking at them. The difference in the shapes of the different key groups is huge for me.
The only thing that I miss is the space around the reverse-T of the arrows. The space that Macbooks have around the arrows is not a "wasted space," it has a purpose: it allows me to position my fingers on the arrows just by touching and feeling. Maybe consider adopting the half-size of the arrows and leaving the left-shift where it should be.
Another note: I don't use Windows much, but when I do, the key in the lower left corner is hard-wired in my muscle memory to Ctrl. Ctrl is the key that is used the most in Windows, so I often need to find it quick, in that corner. Maybe consider a Mac/Win switch (fn-control-option-command for Mac, Ctrl-Fn-Windows-Alt for Windows).
I don't care about clickyness, or what switches does it have. This keyboard is the first I've seen that has a design that will actually allow finding keys by touching and feeling them, not by looking at them. The difference in the shapes of the different key groups is huge for me.
The only thing that I miss is the space around the reverse-T of the arrows. The space that Macbooks have around the arrows is not a "wasted space," it has a purpose: it allows me to position my fingers on the arrows just by touching and feeling. Maybe consider adopting the half-size of the arrows and leaving the left-shift where it should be.
Another note: I don't use Windows much, but when I do, the key in the lower left corner is hard-wired in my muscle memory to Ctrl. Ctrl is the key that is used the most in Windows, so I often need to find it quick, in that corner. Maybe consider a Mac/Win switch (fn-control-option-command for Mac, Ctrl-Fn-Windows-Alt for Windows).
Interesting point on the arrow keys. On Altar I you can "feel" the arrow area since the arrows are dished but the keys around it are raised.
Hi,
looks amazing!
I want to love the kaihl low profile chocs, but after testing the brown ones I still prefer rubber dome. Did you have the chance to try the new sunset ones? From what I read I'd give them another chance (https://splitkb.com/products/sunset-kailh-low-profile-choc-s...)
also any chance for a future ortho version?
I want to love the kaihl low profile chocs, but after testing the brown ones I still prefer rubber dome. Did you have the chance to try the new sunset ones? From what I read I'd give them another chance (https://splitkb.com/products/sunset-kailh-low-profile-choc-s...)
also any chance for a future ortho version?
I have not tested the Kailh sunset switches but I'll check them out.
Looks great and I'll keep my eyes peeled for when you launch. Rotary encoder is an interesting idea. (Presumably reporting a key-press for each click left and right?)
I know you're only at prototype stage, but visually I'd say the giant numbers are a bit jarring, and having some but not all of the Fxx labels displaced from centre on the function keys depending on whether there's a symbol there too looks a bit strange.
I know you're only at prototype stage, but visually I'd say the giant numbers are a bit jarring, and having some but not all of the Fxx labels displaced from centre on the function keys depending on whether there's a symbol there too looks a bit strange.
Another example: the :/; key looks visually sensible because they nicely balanced and compatible sizes. The +/= key looks super strange because = is HUGE and + is tiny.
I love this. A lot of the things people dislike I love. Love the site, love the funky key shape, love the serifs, love the big rotary encoder. Subscribed.
I had the same reaction and am now also subscribed.
- low profile, fantastic
- not full size. Numpads only get in the way!
- mechanical keys
- rotary encoder. Useful for everything! Fl studio, moving pixels in vegas, audio knob etc.
- i don’t mind the font, but perhaps a version without any typography would be nice.
I hope they’ll ship to Norway.
- low profile, fantastic
- not full size. Numpads only get in the way!
- mechanical keys
- rotary encoder. Useful for everything! Fl studio, moving pixels in vegas, audio knob etc.
- i don’t mind the font, but perhaps a version without any typography would be nice.
I hope they’ll ship to Norway.
Wow, this is exactly what I've been looking for. I always loved scissor switch keyboards over mechanical keyboards because of the much lower profile / lower travel. But only a few keyboards like the HP Wireless Elite V2 and Logitech MX Keys have a tactile feel since the rest are mushy. So more mechanical keyboards like this are definitely welcome!
I have never owned a mechanical keyboard but have been curious —- this design looks very sharp. I like the sleek heft of my MX Keys, this seems like it would be an upgrade. I do have a small quibble about the website though: the use of “Kailh©” with the copyright symbol. The name is trademarked, so could be written KAILH or Kailh® but never the ©.
I've been using the HHKB bluetooth keyboard as my main driver for over a year now. My feedback:
* I don't miss the arrow keys at all actually; if you haven't tried it, you could experiment with getting rid of them and seeing how you feel. That makes all "cursor move" operations consistently chorded (with the fn key, naturally).
* The HHKB allows you to connect to five devices simultaneously: 4 bluetooth devices and the USB-C connection. It allows you to switch between them with a single key chord (Fn-Control-<N>). I've found this really nice now that I'm forced to use a company laptop for my main work, as I can keep my personal laptop up and switch between them very quickly. A switch would be OK but would probably feel fiddly and annoying by comparison (and there's a risk of it wearing out if someone switches too often).
Other than that, looks like a cool addition to the solution space -- good luck and I hope it goes well!
* I don't miss the arrow keys at all actually; if you haven't tried it, you could experiment with getting rid of them and seeing how you feel. That makes all "cursor move" operations consistently chorded (with the fn key, naturally).
* The HHKB allows you to connect to five devices simultaneously: 4 bluetooth devices and the USB-C connection. It allows you to switch between them with a single key chord (Fn-Control-<N>). I've found this really nice now that I'm forced to use a company laptop for my main work, as I can keep my personal laptop up and switch between them very quickly. A switch would be OK but would probably feel fiddly and annoying by comparison (and there's a risk of it wearing out if someone switches too often).
Other than that, looks like a cool addition to the solution space -- good luck and I hope it goes well!
This looks SO nice.
The different key surface shapes are something that's missing from most keyboards. I created a very ugly but more usable Moonlander Mk1 by changing out several of the keycaps with other shaped caps from different sets. It makes a world of difference in being able to touch type, especially since my fingers are not super long (and I have to move my hand a little to reach some keys).
It's funny, the aesthetic of this ElectronicMaterials keyboard reminds me of Teenage Engineering. I always wished TE would get into keyboards...
People (myself included, and probably many on HN) will pay a lot for a premium keyboard. This is especially true for those of us who type enough that we start having hand/arm problems. It's a quality of life matter, and spending several hundred or more is reasonable if the benefits are there. (Not all expensive keyboards provide real benefits worthy of their price.)
The different key surface shapes are something that's missing from most keyboards. I created a very ugly but more usable Moonlander Mk1 by changing out several of the keycaps with other shaped caps from different sets. It makes a world of difference in being able to touch type, especially since my fingers are not super long (and I have to move my hand a little to reach some keys).
It's funny, the aesthetic of this ElectronicMaterials keyboard reminds me of Teenage Engineering. I always wished TE would get into keyboards...
People (myself included, and probably many on HN) will pay a lot for a premium keyboard. This is especially true for those of us who type enough that we start having hand/arm problems. It's a quality of life matter, and spending several hundred or more is reasonable if the benefits are there. (Not all expensive keyboards provide real benefits worthy of their price.)
Very nice.
You'll have a hard time pitching this to some "hard core keyboardists", but don't forget that this keyboard is for you, not for them. If you don't want an ergonomic layout, or split and tenting, or an ANSII enter key, or Cherry keys, then so be it. This looks like a great project and a very good implementation.
You'll have a hard time pitching this to some "hard core keyboardists", but don't forget that this keyboard is for you, not for them. If you don't want an ergonomic layout, or split and tenting, or an ANSII enter key, or Cherry keys, then so be it. This looks like a great project and a very good implementation.
I love your keyboard at first sight. The placement of the keys is similar to some popular keyboards like Lenovo laptops (eg. from the bottom left: Fn, Ctrl, Opt/Win, Cmd/Alt, then the spacebar) , so it should be relatively easy to get used to given the strong muscle memory that typists have developed over time. Personally I would probably remap in software the right Opt key to a Ctrl key in order to imitate Lenovo laptops, as that's the hardware I'm used to.
I think the placement of the up arrow to the right of the shift key is great, as they are normal-size keys. Lenovo gives the arrow keys standard width but only 3/4 height so they feel too small.
The raised and sunk key shapes probably feels good in real life. Another way to get tactile feedback and know you fingers are in the right position.
I subscribed to your waitlist, and plan to purchase one. Well done, thumbs up!
I think the placement of the up arrow to the right of the shift key is great, as they are normal-size keys. Lenovo gives the arrow keys standard width but only 3/4 height so they feel too small.
The raised and sunk key shapes probably feels good in real life. Another way to get tactile feedback and know you fingers are in the right position.
I subscribed to your waitlist, and plan to purchase one. Well done, thumbs up!
Does it have 1000hz polling? NKRO?
I got bitten by buying a non-gaming mechanical keyboard, thinking that for office/coding use gaming features were unnecessary. If I type my password at natural high speed, it nearly always transposes letters due to not refreshing fast enough. No such issues on a 1000hz gaming mechanical board
I got bitten by buying a non-gaming mechanical keyboard, thinking that for office/coding use gaming features were unnecessary. If I type my password at natural high speed, it nearly always transposes letters due to not refreshing fast enough. No such issues on a 1000hz gaming mechanical board
I really like the aesthetic, both of the product and your website. One point of feedback, since you ask: the website makes it really hard to get a sense of the material. You describe it uses recycled machined aluminium for the body and some polymer, but it's really hard to get a sense of the actual hardware from the CGI renders. One thing that especially jumped out at me was that in the videos, such as this one:
https://electronicmaterialsoffice.com/video/Turntable_mobile...
there appears to be some kind of film grain overlaid on the video. This makes it really difficult to assess the texture of the material.
Oh and I really like the idea of having a physical switch for multiple Bluetooth paired devices.
Oh and I really like the idea of having a physical switch for multiple Bluetooth paired devices.
Yes you are right, it is hard to get a sense of the materials from these CGI renders. Getting hold of recycled aluminium in small quantities is proving difficult so hence the hedge to say recyclable* not recycled* on the website. I will try hard to make it some % recycled aluminium though.
The grain on the videos is poor and I'll work on that.
The finish of the materials is not finalised but to give you an idea, the case will be a semi-satin anodised aluminium. It will likely be more matte than, say, a Macbook. The plastic will be a matte PBT type hard plastic.
The grain on the videos is poor and I'll work on that.
The finish of the materials is not finalised but to give you an idea, the case will be a semi-satin anodised aluminium. It will likely be more matte than, say, a Macbook. The plastic will be a matte PBT type hard plastic.
HHKB user here. I like the idea, but there are some things that seem weird.
- Why are the numbers larger than the character glyphs? Feels a bit "preschool", imho.
- What exactly is the "rotary encoder" for? It's a "feature" I haven't seen on keyboards before, and given it extends so prominently... I would be careful with travelling with this device.
- talking about travelling: a built-in battery means I need to charge this thing. I'd personally much rather have a standard 2xAA battery compartment for power cells I can get basically anywhere and not charge my keyboard.
- I love the mechanical slider for selecting BT channels.
- from a design perspective: If you use a serif font for the logo, and none for the key descriptions, this leads to some level of optical chaos. I'd go for one or the other, but not both.
- Why are the numbers larger than the character glyphs? Feels a bit "preschool", imho.
- What exactly is the "rotary encoder" for? It's a "feature" I haven't seen on keyboards before, and given it extends so prominently... I would be careful with travelling with this device.
- talking about travelling: a built-in battery means I need to charge this thing. I'd personally much rather have a standard 2xAA battery compartment for power cells I can get basically anywhere and not charge my keyboard.
- I love the mechanical slider for selecting BT channels.
- from a design perspective: If you use a serif font for the logo, and none for the key descriptions, this leads to some level of optical chaos. I'd go for one or the other, but not both.
I really like the design, the form of the keys and the rotary encoder.
Also that you can switch between Bluetooth and USB is very nice.
The materials look really high quality, i love it.
I would have bought it outright if it was available.
Do you have an estimated time when it will be released and what the price would be?
I would have bought it outright if it was available.
Do you have an estimated time when it will be released and what the price would be?
Thank you for trying to enter this market. I’ve been using Apple thin keyboards for years because nothing else comes close in key travel terms while still being Mac-compatible. Yours looks like a serious option. I’m so grateful this exists and I look forward to trying it out.
Wow we have a completely different definition of "hobby" - this goes way beyond the work of a mere hobbyist! It looks fantastic, I'd definitely be interested and I'm sure I'm not the only one here or around the mechanical keyboard community.
Give me a split version, swap ctrl and fn positions, add delete button and prepare to catch my money.
Any chance of using alternative switches? I am quite a fan of the very low activation linear keys. There are some 25g Kailh switches that would suit this. They are colloquially known as gChoc, originally light blue and produced on special request, they’re now pink.
Nice, I'm fond of the spectacular and meticulous designs. Subscribed to the mail list and hoping to get at least two finished product (I'll probably buy both UK and US layout).
Aesthetics resembles me a mix of Apple and Sinclair (especially Sinclair QL), two of my favourite design perspectives with a breeze of eighties. Linear switches another plus point for me. Maybe a different font for alphabetic keys would be nice and consistent with design, font of numerical keys is very good and maybe a good candidate for alphabetics too, nice typewriter era lines. Other than these; recycled materials, aluminium monobody, low-profile keys, etc. nice touches for me. I'm sold. :-)
I hope all goes well!
Aesthetics resembles me a mix of Apple and Sinclair (especially Sinclair QL), two of my favourite design perspectives with a breeze of eighties. Linear switches another plus point for me. Maybe a different font for alphabetic keys would be nice and consistent with design, font of numerical keys is very good and maybe a good candidate for alphabetics too, nice typewriter era lines. Other than these; recycled materials, aluminium monobody, low-profile keys, etc. nice touches for me. I'm sold. :-)
I hope all goes well!
I have been evaluating low-profile Bluetooth keyboards (I use Apple and Logitech K380s) and like the idea, but am not a fan of the number key typography or the apparent lack of a slant (my thumbs seem likely to rest on the bottom edge rather than a key, but I don’t like handrests - maybe this is supposed to be used with one).
Another thing I can point out is that all of my Bluetooth keyboards support three devices for some reason (and yes, I do have some of them paired to three machines).
That said, I would love something like this, but with a (60%) Planck layout. I don’t mind the lack of keys at all, and actually wish for less as long as I can run QMK/ZMK (which is a great feature to see).
Another thing I can point out is that all of my Bluetooth keyboards support three devices for some reason (and yes, I do have some of them paired to three machines).
That said, I would love something like this, but with a (60%) Planck layout. I don’t mind the lack of keys at all, and actually wish for less as long as I can run QMK/ZMK (which is a great feature to see).
Nice job! I did start on my own PCBs for a wireless split with all the nice stuff and dang, it's really not that easy. I gave up at 80% done because someone else did a very similar design (except wireless), plus the necessary stuff like plates.
Then the case, the keycaps and all the other logistics; impressive!
Feedback: I think hotswap is a great idea (not sure if feasible with low profile) because it can cater to different preferences (I'm looking forward to use silent tactile). Also split always seemed very nice when I tried it, especially while standing.
Looks are good. However, as someone using that thing often for 12h a day, I care much more about how it feels
Then the case, the keycaps and all the other logistics; impressive!
Feedback: I think hotswap is a great idea (not sure if feasible with low profile) because it can cater to different preferences (I'm looking forward to use silent tactile). Also split always seemed very nice when I tried it, especially while standing.
Looks are good. However, as someone using that thing often for 12h a day, I care much more about how it feels
This is excellent, my feedback:
- The numbers are too large, they break the consistency of typography.
- The rotary encoder sticks out too much. Rotate & move to the end of the enclosure, and mostly occlude it, like a mouse scroll wheel?
- I would prefer Page Up/Down and numpad.
- The numbers are too large, they break the consistency of typography.
- The rotary encoder sticks out too much. Rotate & move to the end of the enclosure, and mostly occlude it, like a mouse scroll wheel?
- I would prefer Page Up/Down and numpad.
This is the first time I've gotten a real headache by looking at a website, and I'm assuming the culprit was too much movement mixed with only a couple hours of sleep.
Make sure the spin on the 360 view is user-controllable, and get rid of the marquees. A hover animation on the sections would only be expected if they're interactive. Text is needlessly large.
Everyone else has covered my qualms about the keyboard itself, but I'm legitimately not a fan of anything besides it being USB-C and made of aluminium, so I'm clearly not in the target market (I'm happy with my Model M and Das Ultimate) =b
Best of luck!
Make sure the spin on the 360 view is user-controllable, and get rid of the marquees. A hover animation on the sections would only be expected if they're interactive. Text is needlessly large.
Everyone else has covered my qualms about the keyboard itself, but I'm legitimately not a fan of anything besides it being USB-C and made of aluminium, so I'm clearly not in the target market (I'm happy with my Model M and Das Ultimate) =b
Best of luck!
I love this so much. I have about a dozen mech keebs, from Lyn Whale to Satisfaction75, to Kepler.
It drives me nuts they are not bluetooth!
I'd buy this instantly.
BTW, I think surprisingly little overlap between hacker community and mechanical keyboard community.
It drives me nuts they are not bluetooth!
I'd buy this instantly.
BTW, I think surprisingly little overlap between hacker community and mechanical keyboard community.
Nice, but why ruin the overall looks with those oversized numbers? And why the overcrowded, too small control keys on the bottom left side? That in itself would make it a nightmare to be used for an extended time. Maybe leave the ones out from the right side and make the left ones the proper size.
- maybe you can move the fn key to the left side since it's a rarely used modifier. For programmers Shift is most important, then Ctrl and Alt comes. They must be wider to be easily found by touch.
- does it come with backlight? that's a must have!
- maybe you can move the fn key to the left side since it's a rarely used modifier. For programmers Shift is most important, then Ctrl and Alt comes. They must be wider to be easily found by touch.
- does it come with backlight? that's a must have!
Beautiful work and aesthetics!
Please design a keyboard that one can reprogram the keys directly on the hardware (caps to ctrl and the like).
Also where you can program macros and save them into profiles. That way, emacs keys would work everywhere.
Please design a keyboard that one can reprogram the keys directly on the hardware (caps to ctrl and the like).
Also where you can program macros and save them into profiles. That way, emacs keys would work everywhere.
New era of serif branding I am here for it.
Looks cool, hard to tell if worth considering there's no info on price.
> hard to tell if worth considering there's no info on price.
I came here just to say this. It's highly disappointing that a product is announced without any info on how much it could cost. That's the critical factor that will determine if the product is worth any consideration.
I came here just to say this. It's highly disappointing that a product is announced without any info on how much it could cost. That's the critical factor that will determine if the product is worth any consideration.
Is it just me who has no idea what a "rotary encoder" does?
I also had not heard of this — https://keyboardsexpert.com/rotary-encoder-knobs-guide/
Looks great. Would you consider making this Ortholinear? I used to use the TypeMatrix 2030 & loved it. The issues were it's durability, necessity of using skins, non-programmability, & it's usage scissor keys. I have since switched to the Ergodox EZ for home & Planck EZ for travel.
The Planck is compact, durable, & programmable...however what's missing is an ortholinear programmable travel keyboard with a full assortment of keys & durable low-profile switches.
The Planck is compact, durable, & programmable...however what's missing is an ortholinear programmable travel keyboard with a full assortment of keys & durable low-profile switches.
You can DIY one with choc switches:
https://boardsource.xyz/store/5ecb822386879c9a0c22db84
https://www.littlekeyboards.com/products/naked60bmp-keyboard...
https://boardsource.xyz/store/5ecb822386879c9a0c22db84
https://www.littlekeyboards.com/products/naked60bmp-keyboard...
This looks fabulous - I am all for your industrial design.
I note in the specs you mention kailh red linears, but tactile switches in the blurb up top, will there be a choice between linear and tactile?
I note in the specs you mention kailh red linears, but tactile switches in the blurb up top, will there be a choice between linear and tactile?
Site accessibility note: going to www.electronicmaterialsoffice.com redirects you to a holding page.
I'm not sure I'll get one, but I like the site design - it feels almost pornographic.
I'm not sure I'll get one, but I like the site design - it feels almost pornographic.
I read a great article recently about "sexy design" you might like it: https://dirty-furniture.com/article/tell-me-do-you-intend-to...
Thanks for the heads up.
As for the pornographic comment, that's the best compliment I've got all day!
As for the pornographic comment, that's the best compliment I've got all day!
Looks extremely cool, I could see myself picking this up when it comes out to take to work with me. My only concern (like others) is the rotary dial. I like it, but it would be great if it was removable almost like how teenage engineering do the cranks for the OP-1 [0]
[0] https://teenage.engineering/products/op-1/original/overview
[0] https://teenage.engineering/products/op-1/original/overview
This looks really great, love the design and just signed up for future news. The dual connectivity is very useful and there doesn't seem to be to many keyboards supporting this (please correct me if I'm wrong). I currently have a Logitech MX Keys for that purpose, but I have been looking for a replacement for some time.
A 75% version of this with PgUp/Dn/Pos1 etc. a flat dial/knob would actually be perfect - anything planned in that direction?
A 75% version of this with PgUp/Dn/Pos1 etc. a flat dial/knob would actually be perfect - anything planned in that direction?
The best thing you can do is to get ppl to review it because many won’t buy it without actually feeling it out once, but a good reviewer can give you a pretty good idea
I think it's fairly normal in the mech keyboard community to buy relatively expensive equipment without every having touched it and waiting a long while for it to arrive
This looks awesome. I just finished my search for a low profile mechanical keyboard last month; landed on the Nuphy 75 and my only complaint is i dont like the style, i much prefer the style you went for. Very happy to see more entrants into the low profile territory.
Tangential: i really like the mac keyboard (laptop and magic) and while it took about a month of regular use, i now prefer my mechanical keyboard. I was skeptical i ever would.
Tangential: i really like the mac keyboard (laptop and magic) and while it took about a month of regular use, i now prefer my mechanical keyboard. I was skeptical i ever would.
This keyboard looks wonderful except for the large distracting font in the number row.
Why not keep the font consistent (or the same size with only a change in weight) throughout?
Why not keep the font consistent (or the same size with only a change in weight) throughout?
I absolutely love this, and this the first mechanical keyboard I actually want to get.
One option I hope you will provide--that I hope is easy enough that you would actually consider--is to provide a key cap set that is completely blank, or is very minimal. I don't need anything printed on my keyboard, and I would prefer to not see such a gorgeous keyboard with all that white printed on it, especially the number caps.
One option I hope you will provide--that I hope is easy enough that you would actually consider--is to provide a key cap set that is completely blank, or is very minimal. I don't need anything printed on my keyboard, and I would prefer to not see such a gorgeous keyboard with all that white printed on it, especially the number caps.
Beautiful design language, great functionality and thoughtful SKUs.
Good luck with the launch/release. As someone who designs keyboards, I think the design space outside of the "core hobbyist" market is super interesting. This looks like a great keyboard that would look great on the desk of people who value aesthetics, ergonomics and good design.
I'm a big fan of your principles and the overall presentation of this project.
Good luck with the launch/release. As someone who designs keyboards, I think the design space outside of the "core hobbyist" market is super interesting. This looks like a great keyboard that would look great on the desk of people who value aesthetics, ergonomics and good design.
I'm a big fan of your principles and the overall presentation of this project.
Thank you!
Am I weird in not understanding the reason someone would dedicate the space on their desk for a full size keyboard and be against the extra few inches for the numpad and the navigation keys?
They've been missing from laptops for a while now, but the absence at least makes sense there.
I see a lot of cool designs for keyboards (like this one), but they are usually Windows only and then also chop off the numpad and navigation keys.
They've been missing from laptops for a while now, but the absence at least makes sense there.
I see a lot of cool designs for keyboards (like this one), but they are usually Windows only and then also chop off the numpad and navigation keys.
Very beautiful. Seems to take a lot of inspiration from the likes of RAMA but with a design language entirely your own. I personally love when design choices in products like this (read: mechanical keyboards) are highly opinionated and stylized. For what it’s worth, I prefer many of the choices you’ve made here to those of RAMA, whose keyboards I already use, so I would absolutely be interested in this.
Looks nice. I would not call this "ultra low profile". That isn't really possible with mechanical switches. Even with mechanical switches, there are alternatives that are thinner, like the keytron/keychron line. The k1 would be the perfect keyboard for me, if it actually worked reliably.
Like someone else said, it's not easy to gauge the size of this one from the graphics on the landing page.
Like someone else said, it's not easy to gauge the size of this one from the graphics on the landing page.
I'm considering a k1, what kind of reliability issues you're talking about?
I'm using an MX Keys with the Logitech dongle, it's slick without any lag (except sometimes when I have multiple Bluetooth connected things nearby + 20 visible Wi-Fi networks from my neighbors, then I can just make sure the dongle is closer).
But using the Bluetooth mode it's only as slick connecting to MacBooks, or to specific Wi-Fi/Bluetooth cards (AX201 is fine, The original Broadcom is shit).
I'm using an MX Keys with the Logitech dongle, it's slick without any lag (except sometimes when I have multiple Bluetooth connected things nearby + 20 visible Wi-Fi networks from my neighbors, then I can just make sure the dongle is closer).
But using the Bluetooth mode it's only as slick connecting to MacBooks, or to specific Wi-Fi/Bluetooth cards (AX201 is fine, The original Broadcom is shit).
I don't know if the problem is mechanical or electronic, but my keytron k1 frequently misses and repeats keypresses. It's really not usable for me.
I'm so glad to see a low-profile mechanical. They feel like they're so rare in the MK community. The design of the keyboard itself looks beautiful. The material and component choice looks great as well!
A couple minor things regarding the website:
* It's super zoomed in for some reason/spacing could use some work
* The "about" page is pretty barren when the text is shrunk to a more reasonable size (50%)
A couple minor things regarding the website:
* It's super zoomed in for some reason/spacing could use some work
* The "about" page is pretty barren when the text is shrunk to a more reasonable size (50%)
Like the look of it.
Two quick questions:
1. The specs mention Kailh Red switches (linear) - is there any chance this would be offered in other types of Kailh switches? (e.g. Blue etc.) 2. These look like custom keycaps - does this mean that standard mechanical keyboard keycaps won't work on it? Or do you know if the keycaps on these are interchangeable? If not, would you offer them with say, blank keycaps?
Two quick questions:
1. The specs mention Kailh Red switches (linear) - is there any chance this would be offered in other types of Kailh switches? (e.g. Blue etc.) 2. These look like custom keycaps - does this mean that standard mechanical keyboard keycaps won't work on it? Or do you know if the keycaps on these are interchangeable? If not, would you offer them with say, blank keycaps?
I really love the design. The rotary encoder reminds me of the playdate and it would be awesome to have a “real” volume control for once.
I applaud the initiative, shipping software is hard enough, can’t imagine how much harder manufacturing and shipping actual atoms is.
The logo is too dominant and distracting for it to be beautiful imho. It also doesn't pair well with the typo for the keys.
A lot of mechanical keyboards look incredible but once they arrive in the mail they're complete garbage when it comes to tactile feedback and general feel and usability of the keys. I'd say that's 80% of what makes a good keyboard. Crossing my fingers on this one (well at least until the keyboard arrives and need them to type on it).
Aesthetically I dig it reminds me of teenage engineering's house style. Flat though I don't think is the best for ergos.
looks really great, personally i think being able to use it with a cable is a must. i don’t care about bluetooth.
the rotary is a great idea but if you only have one maybe make it so you can spin it with a finger instead of turning it.
what did you use for modeling and rendering software and what did you use to create the website in terms of languages/frameworks etc?
the rotary is a great idea but if you only have one maybe make it so you can spin it with a finger instead of turning it.
what did you use for modeling and rendering software and what did you use to create the website in terms of languages/frameworks etc?
I love everything about it. I’d buy today except I’ll committed to split keyboards. They let me keep my shoulders back. If you ever make a versions that’s fully split (two halves that can be well-separated) and still non-ortho, even better if you can figure out how to wirelessly split…
My only other feature request would be a USB port for a yubikey.
My only other feature request would be a USB port for a yubikey.
I was literally just looking this morning for a travel-size mechanical keyboard to go with a Surface. Trying not to buy a ThinkPad X1 tablet.
Found the Nuphy Air75, which is a few grams lighter but not as design-y. Clearly there must be some new, low-profile key switches hitting the market making these thin keyboards a possibility.
Anyone recommend a wrist rest?
Found the Nuphy Air75, which is a few grams lighter but not as design-y. Clearly there must be some new, low-profile key switches hitting the market making these thin keyboards a possibility.
Anyone recommend a wrist rest?
It looks great!
The letters and numbers on the keys appear to be painted on. My experience with such keys is the paint wears off, and by then you'd better know how to touch type!
A feature I'd like to see is being able to clean the keyboard without ruining it. Best would be if I could run it through the dishwasher.
The letters and numbers on the keys appear to be painted on. My experience with such keys is the paint wears off, and by then you'd better know how to touch type!
A feature I'd like to see is being able to clean the keyboard without ruining it. Best would be if I could run it through the dishwasher.
Yeah, I ruined a dishwasher by running engine parts through it once…ok, twice because I wanted to figure out why the floor was wet and it turns out regular hand soap isn’t designed for dishwasher use with all the foaming bubbles escape out the sides of the door.
This looks like it was made by Teenage Engineering! I really love the look. Excellent work. Subscribed to the newsletter.
Beautiful. I have a couple of the NuPhy [1] keyboards so I'm definitely in the target market.
The Rotary Encoder is a dealbreaker for me though. I want something slender that I can easily slip into a case or backpack. If it was optional, you'd have a customer!
[1] https://nuphy.com
The Rotary Encoder is a dealbreaker for me though. I want something slender that I can easily slip into a case or backpack. If it was optional, you'd have a customer!
[1] https://nuphy.com
Great keyboard, horrible website.
I want to see the keyboard not some animated gifs and marquees like it's 1996
It's a very artistic website, but it's awful for getting a good look at the actual product - you do not have a single static shot showing the whole keyboard in a size that means I can get a grasp for what it looks like at 1920x1200.
edit: in fact, you have better shots of the keyswitches you're using and your theoretical recycled bottle than you do of the keyboard itself. It's baffling.
edit: in fact, you have better shots of the keyswitches you're using and your theoretical recycled bottle than you do of the keyboard itself. It's baffling.
Haha thank you for the feedback, and noted! I will look to add some static shots of the board.
Wireless mechanical keyboards feel rare - this is awesome!
I particularly love the ideals on the About page.
"Everything is black" "Well paid workers. Good working conditions"
This is a product where you can so clearly see the thought that went into it (partially because you tell us how much thought went into it) and it shows.
Beautiful work and congratulations.
I particularly love the ideals on the About page.
"Everything is black" "Well paid workers. Good working conditions"
This is a product where you can so clearly see the thought that went into it (partially because you tell us how much thought went into it) and it shows.
Beautiful work and congratulations.
Does anyone make a keyboard that goes in the opposite direction? I’ve been looking for a keyboard with stiff springs and large bubbly keys, in the style of late 70s/early 80 terminals. The best I could come up with are higher profile key caps with rounded corners, which aren’t quite what I’m looking for.
You can find some more retro keycap profiles if you dig around in various keyboard enthusiast sites, eg https://mechboards.co.uk/products/tex-ada-keycap-set and you can pair them with high force keyswitches such as the Cherry MX grey.
You would like one of the Unicomp keyboards. They're made by IBM folks on old IBM hardware, so it's basically a modernized IBM M Series Buckling Spring keyboard. Very affordable, with color and key combo options.
https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/SFNT
https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/SFNT
The person you're replying to was not talking about IBM type stuff.
More Space-cadet than Model M.
More Space-cadet than Model M.
You probably want to look at SA profile keycaps.
Keyboard looks great but no insert-delete-home-end cluster means an instant no from me in any keyboard, how do you people move without those keys? I've cringed enough in my life seeing people pressing the arrow keys and waiting 5-20 seconds while the cursor traverse an entire phrase/paragraph.
Mac users don’t need them. Not sure about Insert, but Cmd+backspace, Cmd+up or left arrow, Cmd+down or right arrow give you delete/home/end respectively. Alt+up/down arrow gives you page up/down.
The fact that you don't need them doesn't mean everyone else doesn't use them, also, how do you know what every Mac user thinks? Also you know there are other OSs around don't you?
When I've used a Mac, I've used them (external keyboard, the laptop one is useless for me).
Emacs shortcuts are universal in macOS and much more convenient than home/end/delete/etc in my opinion.
That's oddly specific and doesn't solve the real problem. Also there is a world outside Emacs and macOS, like a ton of other applications and OS.
Thank you for sharing this. It looks interesting and I will wait to hear more. I wish that you had a few high res photos of the keyboard from different angle that I could just go through. The spinning graphic and different slice cuts are a bit hart for me to mentally place and imagine the keyboard.
Oh I absolutely love the font choices and numbers as a designer - wish more boutique mechanical creators would get creative there more frequently. The knobs are quite handsome too. Immediately subscribed to the mailing list ... Thank you for sharing and I hope to see more eventually. :)
Looks really cool as a Mac keyboard. My dream keyboard at the moment is something like an ErgoDox EZ or moonlander which is ergonomics and quality first. I get the feeling this board will be a similar price ($300+ USD) and at that point I'd just get my dream board! Lol.
dont know about the ergodox, but the moonlander is worth every cent and you should definitely make that dream a reality. knowing what I know now that im over the learning curve I probably would have paid 500 for it. it would be nice if it was compatible with the low profile switches this one has though.
Not my cup of tea personally. I like my high-profile clickity-clacks too much.
That being said, it's a work of art.
That being said, it's a work of art.
Great job! This along with the WorkLouder boards really excites me in pushing forward in the mech keyboard scene. We have a ton of makers who are replicating stuff to make it cheaper but these projects are what will push the envelope on what is possible for keyboards.
I was literally talking to my coworker about wanting a keyboard just like this yesterday! I don’t like the UK layout and I don’t want the arrow keys to go into the keyboard. They should be on the same row as space.
I would pay around $150-200 for the keyboard though.
I would pay around $150-200 for the keyboard though.
You have done what Apple has failed to do in the last 10 years!
Back in the olden times of the early 21's century they made good mechanical keyboards with good tactile feel.
Now they ship laptops with paper thin fragile keys.
Thanks for design a great product to help fill the void.
I look forward to buying one.
Back in the olden times of the early 21's century they made good mechanical keyboards with good tactile feel.
Now they ship laptops with paper thin fragile keys.
Thanks for design a great product to help fill the void.
I look forward to buying one.
No Linux Support?
The dial functionality can be achieved easily with layers
I would expect it to be more ergo in the keys layout
The dial functionality can be achieved easily with layers
I would expect it to be more ergo in the keys layout
It's running open source ZMK firmware, which has no problems connecting to Linux devices, and if I remember correctly the "base keymap" features will all work cross-OS, and can be remapped easily with a firmware update.
I think it looks gorgeous! Signed up for the waiting list.
It reminds me a lot of the OP-1 from Teenage Engineering [1].
1: https://teenage.engineering/products/op-1
It reminds me a lot of the OP-1 from Teenage Engineering [1].
1: https://teenage.engineering/products/op-1
I feel like I'm the target customer here. I use macOS and exclusively use minimalistic keyboards.
I like this a lot and would consider buying if the price point was right. The only change I would like to see is a smaller font size on the number keys.
Congrats and good luck!
I like this a lot and would consider buying if the price point was right. The only change I would like to see is a smaller font size on the number keys.
Congrats and good luck!
It's awesome. I like lots of travel in my mechanical keyboards so this is not for me but I wish Apple was making those keyboards instead of the ones that look nice but feel shitty that they end up selling for the last decade at least.
What is this rotary encoder you are talking about willis?
Imagine an end to end functionality that when 2 users running this keyboard
rotate the switch every keystroke between the 2 keyboards is an encrypted channel? Ooooh!
The ONLY thing I want from a keyboard (well, the main thing) is the ability to wash it thoroughly. These things become disgusting. I had to buy an old logitech keyboard on ebay, one that's no longer in sale, to have this.
On a mechanical keyboard you can take the key caps off for easy cleaning. Though I just dust my keyboard and it's pretty clean.
Pros: looks great, aluminum body, real mechanical (but low-profile) switches, and the knob, bluetooth, and USB-C are awesome.
Cons: not very ergonomic. (compared to e.g. squeezebox or dactyl-manuform)
Not the keyboard for me, sure, but still a great product!
Cons: not very ergonomic. (compared to e.g. squeezebox or dactyl-manuform)
Not the keyboard for me, sure, but still a great product!
I would love to get some feedback from the HN community
Can you put a picture on the web site showing the entire keyboard without it moving? I'd like to look closely at the layout, but every image is either cropped or fleeting.
Can you put a picture on the web site showing the entire keyboard without it moving? I'd like to look closely at the layout, but every image is either cropped or fleeting.
I love how its called the "EMO AI" keyboard!
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Love the design - would really like to try it out, IMO - I hate when sites have no cost info. At least put a ball park price on the page.
The only thing I see missing from the design is spill-proofing?
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Love the design - would really like to try it out, IMO - I hate when sites have no cost info. At least put a ball park price on the page.
The only thing I see missing from the design is spill-proofing?
I see some questions about Linux support here, and apparently it works just fine with that OS. But why does the site say this then?
OS support
Apple MacOS 12 (Monteray) and up
Microsoft Windows 10 and upIn theory the board works with Linux, but it has not actually been tested. If it is tested with Linux and is confirmed working, I will specify that in the specs.
Design is beautiful. At same time it has some retro styling, and it is also futuristic. It reminds me of ZX spectrum. I like the ret switch. Good luck with production! I hope that I'll see it in person one day.
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Would be better if the usb connection was recessed so the plug body wasn’t sticking out like that and the cable could flex better. Would love an option totally without wireless.
I like the idea of a high quality compact keyboard.
I like the idea of a high quality compact keyboard.
I really like this and love your website design. I’ve signed up for updates. Looking forward to buying it.
Edit: if you are interested in ever doing a webar thing, check out modelviewer js. If you want help with it let me know.
Edit: if you are interested in ever doing a webar thing, check out modelviewer js. If you want help with it let me know.
Yup that's a Teenage Engineering OP1 designed to look like a keyboard :D
I love the idea and design, but I hate the placement of the Control and Function keys.
I guess it is nice for the people used to the Mac keyboard layout, but it is really not for me.
Did you consider an option for a more ”traditional“ layout?
I guess it is nice for the people used to the Mac keyboard layout, but it is really not for me.
Did you consider an option for a more ”traditional“ layout?
I'm curious how you chose both the font style and font size. I would've preferred something else for both is my first impression. Did you sample preferences from people? Very impressive project.
From a design perspective, it irks me that the numbers are so much larger than the letters. Why? This would seem to indicate that the numbers are somehow more important which doesn’t make any sense to me.
Looks very inspired by the Teenage Engineering OP-1. Hopefully it’s as fun.
I hate that the main field of keys is flat. That is a big step down from anything with sculpted keys. I don’t think this is really trying to be a good keyboard. TBF that is a solved problem.
How does the rotary encoder identify itself to the OS? As a scroll wheel?
Out of curiosity why did you use Chinese and not the more popular German (Cherry MX) switches considering the rest of the board was assembled in the UK? Really cool keyboard though, looks great!
The Kailh low profile switches are better than the Cherry low profile switches.
Good to know. How would you describe the difference?
Really nice especially the moulded keys, but two eyesores, the logo and the whatever knob in the top right. You’re never going to be able to slip that into a bag with the knob sticking out. And nobody uses those. Well nobody that can pay $120 for a keyboard.
As for the logo, that’s a vanity thing. I know you’re very proud of making the product but if you put a stupid logo on front it kills the minimalist vibe and reduces the practical low key expensive style to just another “RBG in the next model haxxors”. It’s a keyboard, let it be a keyboard, with a simple model number, and add your brand logo to the back of the device. Let the product sell itself.
Uh-ho just looked again and saw it was made in the uk. never buying it
As for the logo, that’s a vanity thing. I know you’re very proud of making the product but if you put a stupid logo on front it kills the minimalist vibe and reduces the practical low key expensive style to just another “RBG in the next model haxxors”. It’s a keyboard, let it be a keyboard, with a simple model number, and add your brand logo to the back of the device. Let the product sell itself.
Uh-ho just looked again and saw it was made in the uk. never buying it
Counterpoint: I like the knob snd it‘s design, and I would definitely have multiple use cases for it.
I agree that it makes the keyboard less portable though.
I agree that it makes the keyboard less portable though.
But it’s a portable keyboard, that’s the product. That’s the point, a slim fits in your bag portable bluetooth keyboard. The whole design is optimized based on that constraint. Then some nut comes along and says “hey you know what would make this stand out?” a big orange knob. See this is why you can’t take the english seriously in technology design. they have no clue
Second counterpoint, I didn't even notice the logo (I assume you mean the model name), and I think it looks good.
The knob does make it less portable though, definitely.
The knob does make it less portable though, definitely.
> Uh-ho just looked again and saw it was made in the uk. never buying it
Why not?
Why not?
London isn’t a technology hub and that they put made in london to imitate Apple made in California, is pretentious to the nth degree, and that’s exactly how I see the english. they don’t make shit, and what little they do design comes with fireworks and their national gd anthem. And nobody bring up ARM, because the ARM of today was designed in Japan, not the uk
Having such a broad strokes approach to English manufacturing/design is awfully elitist. It's okay to be proud of your successes - they've contributed a lot. We tend to focus on the abject failures (eg British Leyland) but without things like the Merlin engine, the P51 wouldn't have been as dominant during WWII.
No, england lost the war and was saved by the US
I've been waiting for a mechanical keyboard with a proper low profile Mac layout for years. I use far left fn all the time.
And now you won't even let me throw money at you...
I love your use of typography on the design.
(Yes, even the digits row.)
The general design is audacious. It kinda reminds me of the retro-looking IBM computers (AS/400 series)
Super exciting product. Good luck!
The general design is audacious. It kinda reminds me of the retro-looking IBM computers (AS/400 series)
Super exciting product. Good luck!
I've tried so many MKs. This one is almost perfect. I don't like the big digits in the number row but can live with it. But I need more tactile switches :)
Looking forward to the release
Looking forward to the release
Congrats on the launch. I love the rotary dial. I love the typographic choices. I love everything about this except the printed logo.
Signed up for the waitlist. I'm interested in the pricing.
Signed up for the waitlist. I'm interested in the pricing.
OP, I'd be interested in a blog that covers all your learnings about seeking out parts suppliers and manufacturers, and communicating with them to reach the finish line.
awesome! I like the arrow keys arrangement very much. but the F1~F12 is not required. for the rotary encoder, it reminds me of another keyboard recently appeared. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGShD9ZER1c
but it's far more powerful.
Can anyone enlighten how you would go about producing something like this? How do I even meet a pcb designer? How would I the product made, contact someone on AliExpress?
It looks nice. Teenage Engineering just wants to talk to you…
Seems there's been a real keyboard Renaissance recently. Is that just keyboards or is it the same in all niche manufacturing spaces that I'm less aware of?
Ahh I was hoping for a trackpoint. Though i like the profile.
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Excellenet!
The only huge space for improvement is to find very ugly letters that match or even outpace the elevated ugliness level of the numeric buttons. If that even possible.
The only huge space for improvement is to find very ugly letters that match or even outpace the elevated ugliness level of the numeric buttons. If that even possible.
It looks amazing, but wireless keyboards really sketch me out, especially bluetooth. Can you force it wired for entering passwords and sensitive information?
Sunken caps for the number keys are a great idea. When touch typing I would have confidence I’m not over-reaching for F1 F2 F3 or under-reaching for QWERTY.
I WANT IT NOW. This is literally amazing - I love low-profile keyboards and this looks absolutely fab. Directly signed up for updates! Good luck with this!
That thing is so pretty that unless it is obscenely expensive I'd buy it for the interesting looks alone. If it works for me: all the better.
Minimal, well designed, lots of personality, and a bonus rotary quirk. This basically touches all my buttons, I've signed up for your updates.
congrats, can't wait when this ships as you'd have pretty much the only mechanical keyboard that follows the macbook keyboard layout on 4 keys left from space and prob would be instant sell to every mackbook owner who likes mechanical keyboards.
the rotary button has no value imho but I can just break this off for the sake of being constant with the mackbook keyboard layout :) cause you know muscle memory
the rotary button has no value imho but I can just break this off for the sake of being constant with the mackbook keyboard layout :) cause you know muscle memory
Give it a trackpoint and take my money.
You've already got the thinkpad palette on a modern form factor, all that's missing is the central, red nipple.
You've already got the thinkpad palette on a modern form factor, all that's missing is the central, red nipple.
Looks very nice! Does the keyboard act as a wired keyboard if hooked up by usb-c? Asking because I would be using it with a KVM-style switch.
Can you share how much you invested cost-wise in the prototype process? Curious to know how expensive the "keyboard hobby" is.
Amazing website and the quality of the keyboard looks exquisite.
Not sure how I feel about a coiled c-c cable. That might be too hardcore for me.
All in all, great design!
Not sure how I feel about a coiled c-c cable. That might be too hardcore for me.
All in all, great design!
This is really impressive, well done. I love the design, how premium it looks, and the site itself.
Really amazing work, I'm blown away. Well done.
Really amazing work, I'm blown away. Well done.
In general I like it, and it’s great to see more low profile options show up, but the larger font numbers would keep me from buying it.
a) Wow, this looks amazing, despite me having no need for wireless or interest in a small keyboard.
b) Wait, there are low profile mechanical switches? I always thought mechanical keyboards were impossible for me as I far prefer flat keys than the giant keys with gaping valleys between them. But apparently that’s not necessarily the case? Now I want to try one out.
b) Wait, there are low profile mechanical switches? I always thought mechanical keyboards were impossible for me as I far prefer flat keys than the giant keys with gaping valleys between them. But apparently that’s not necessarily the case? Now I want to try one out.
What's the point of all the effort of having it be low profile when there's a giant rotary control knob sticking out?
IMO the main benefit of low profile is low latency: https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/
> Note that, unlike the other measurement I was able to find online, this measurement was from the start of the keypress instead of the switch activation. This is because, as a human, you don't activate the switch, you press the key. A measurement that starts from switch activiation time misses this large component to latency. If, for example, you're playing a game and you switch from moving forward to moving backwards when you see something happen, you have pay the cost of the key movement, which is different for different keyboards. A common response to this is that "real" gamers will preload keys so that they don't have to pay the key travel cost, but if you go around with a high speed camera and look at how people actually use their keyboards, the fraction of keypresses that are significantly preloaded is basically zero even when you look at gamers.
> Note that, unlike the other measurement I was able to find online, this measurement was from the start of the keypress instead of the switch activation. This is because, as a human, you don't activate the switch, you press the key. A measurement that starts from switch activiation time misses this large component to latency. If, for example, you're playing a game and you switch from moving forward to moving backwards when you see something happen, you have pay the cost of the key movement, which is different for different keyboards. A common response to this is that "real" gamers will preload keys so that they don't have to pay the key travel cost, but if you go around with a high speed camera and look at how people actually use their keyboards, the fraction of keypresses that are significantly preloaded is basically zero even when you look at gamers.
Very nice, i do like the format. Would definitely try, to see how the switches feel.
I do use a TypeMatrix2030, if you need some more inspirations.
I do use a TypeMatrix2030, if you need some more inspirations.
I love the website and am attracted to the keyboard. It looks really beautiful and carefully crafted. I'd love to try it.
The style of this is great! I would definitely consider buying if it had either a Dvorak layout, or a blank key cap layout.
Aw, the orange part is just a rotary encoder. And here I thought they had finally given a computer an ignition switch. :)
Awesome project. The site is a bit hard to read with the text being so big and all over the place.
Also, I am not a big fan of the red knob.
Also, I am not a big fan of the red knob.
I love this keyboard! Looks really well designed and awesome to use. I signed up for the list and cant wait! Good job!
What can I do with the rotary encoder thing? Not familiar... is it like a modulation input on midi keyboards?
Looks great, but I'm not sure about the height difference between the keys. But definitely worth to try
The font chosen for the numbers destroys my soul. It feels like someone from Jitterbug was hired to lead
Some quick feedback here. The knob for me is not needed but backlight would be nice. Overall, love it.
Great work -- would love to see more about the process you went through to get to the end product.
This is beyond cool! Kudos on the site design/presentation. Excited to (hopefully) pick one up.
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That looks gorgeous. Amazing work.
Sigh invite only :-( wondering when this fantastic keyboard goes public for sale...
Nice design (although personally I need a numpad). But why does it require Windows 10??
This looks fab! All I want from a keyboard and the industrial design is gorgeous.
Now make it split.
It has two BT connections, so each half can use one connection.
Then it will be my dream keyboard.
It has two BT connections, so each half can use one connection.
Then it will be my dream keyboard.
Looks amazing. Any plans for Nordic layout?
As with so many beautiful designs....if it were only ergonomic I would be in.
UK is the place to be to still find some of the best artisan level handwork.
Nice! I subscribed to the waitinglist. I wish the price works for everyone :)
I feel like I just saw my first Apple ad in the 1980s. Damn! Looks great.
This looks beautiful! Slap a trackpoint in the middle and I will buy 3.
Looks really cool, I will probably buy one when they're available.
Awesome web design, for real; the style fits the product perfectly!
This is the most pro thing I ever saw. Excellent site too. Good job.
Looks good! Two questions:
Will you make an Ortholinear version, and
Is it hotswappable?
Looking forward to getting one.
Will you make an Ortholinear version, and
Is it hotswappable?
Looking forward to getting one.
it's nice to see a dedicated low profile keyboard maker. I would love to see if it improves typing speed as well as making typing easier for long time typer by design.
Any info about pricing?
I really like the design of this - including the number row.
Love the design, and maybe even more so the website design.
Am I crazy, or missing something? I can't find any static images of the actual keyboard's front, rear, and side angles. They're all spinning or moving. Hard to get a good look. There's one image labeled "Layout" but the image itself is pretty small and I can't get a good look at the individual keys.
Nice graphics but gosh this website very hard to read!
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Any future plan to launch a split version of this?
Is it inspired by TE OP-1? Looks really nice :)
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Has a very teenage engineering feel to it
Super interesting, dig the rotary encoder.
Incredible website - congrats on launching
I wish they could add a trackpoint to it.
WOW!! it looks amazing. best of luck.
looks great but why numbers are so big ?
Love it. Now give me a columnar layout.
I'd love to test this! Looks nice
Beautiful. Nice marquee animation!
i like the design motif similar to 80s walkman and Braun appliances . let’s bring that back
Can you make a blank one please?
Why are the numbers so big??
TAKE MY MONEY
Will there be a 10-key version?
Will there be a 10-key version?
huge congrats!!
shipping hardware is not for the faint of heart. props.
I want it without battery
Shut up and take my money
it looks like if teenage engineering created a keyboard.
great job
Looks very inconvinient
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Absolutely phenomenal.
nice one but why not split? game changer for me.
i can say only one thing:
CTRL should be in the corner.
CTRL should be in the corner.
looks insane. 100% cop this.
and it's bad :D
why minimalist ?
I dig this, and screw the criticism. I love the Apple-ness. Cool website and beautiful product. This is like the most HN thing ever — I mean that in the best way possible.
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no trackpoint. next.
nor trackball.
also not available in metallic pink.
For these reasons there are gazillions of different keyboards on the market. My fave: cheapest one I can get :-)
During lockdown I took up the keyboard hobby but I couldn't find anything I liked the aesthetic of. So I set out to design my own keyboard from scratch that shunned the gamer look in favour of a more minimal, serious design.
I've built several prototypes but I would love to get some feedback from the HN community.