Illegal host, electric shocks, slugs, leaks and no support – How Airbnb failed(medium.com)
medium.com
Illegal host, electric shocks, slugs, leaks and no support – How Airbnb failed
https://medium.com/@julia.airbnb.horrorstory/illegal-host-electric-shocks-slugs-leaks-and-no-support-how-airbnb-failed-ae89925fca7b
424 comments
But it's also Airbnb themselves. It's well known that negative reviews are scrubbed and even edited, this is something many people including myself have experienced. Any doubts, spend some time on the Airbnb subreddit, which is run by hosts, and check out both their attitudes and their advice about how to remove bad reviews.
Airbnb needs hosts for its revenue. Clients are the product.
I used to love Airbnb and used it multiple times per year - since Day 1. Now because of fake positive reviews (where negative aspects of a home, like noise, are censored), combined with crazy fees, I'm also like you going back to hotels.
You have to love the fees, which I think are sinking the system. 130 a night for the place, you want to stay there three nights. You're asked to pay 250 in Airbnb fees and 225 in cleaning fees. You should check in after 2 pm and you better check out before 11, and anything out of the ordinary leads to an uncomfortable email exchange sometimes with no reply. It's not cancellable, either.
Many people bought properties around the world to specifically Airbnb out. Will the tide finally turn? Is the business model unsustainable?
Airbnb needs hosts for its revenue. Clients are the product.
I used to love Airbnb and used it multiple times per year - since Day 1. Now because of fake positive reviews (where negative aspects of a home, like noise, are censored), combined with crazy fees, I'm also like you going back to hotels.
You have to love the fees, which I think are sinking the system. 130 a night for the place, you want to stay there three nights. You're asked to pay 250 in Airbnb fees and 225 in cleaning fees. You should check in after 2 pm and you better check out before 11, and anything out of the ordinary leads to an uncomfortable email exchange sometimes with no reply. It's not cancellable, either.
Many people bought properties around the world to specifically Airbnb out. Will the tide finally turn? Is the business model unsustainable?
Hopefully those properties will come back on the market at a reasonable price so that we can offset some of the housing inequity that airbnb is directly responsible for.
Seriously. I can only hope the tide is turning and these AirBnBs will be back in the hands of the people who actually live in the cities. Sadly corporations will probably eat them up and let, though hopefully as long-term instead of short!
> will be back in the hands of the people who actually live in the cities.
There apparently is a real demand to rent such places for short terms like holidays or trips. Banning AirBnB, or AirBnB going down, won't remove that demand.
There apparently is a real demand to rent such places for short terms like holidays or trips. Banning AirBnB, or AirBnB going down, won't remove that demand.
No, but it'll force them to go to places that are actually planned to accommodate them. Tourists are included in city planning, believe it or not, but they're not expected to be taking up the actual residential places of the city. That's why areas are zoned for hotels and there's regulation around them.
> Tourists are included in city planning
The reason AirBnB exists is that tourists are not properly accounted for in city planning and not properly serviced by hotels. There's a huge demand for what AirBnB provides (Serviced and short term accommodation). Hotels are inadequate for longer stays or where you just want the comforts of home, a good middle ground is the "serviced apartment" concept found in some places (entire apartment blocks reserved for short term rentals) however there are times when you want an entire house, not an apartment.
The reason AirBnB exists is that tourists are not properly accounted for in city planning and not properly serviced by hotels. There's a huge demand for what AirBnB provides (Serviced and short term accommodation). Hotels are inadequate for longer stays or where you just want the comforts of home, a good middle ground is the "serviced apartment" concept found in some places (entire apartment blocks reserved for short term rentals) however there are times when you want an entire house, not an apartment.
> a good middle ground is the "serviced apartment" concept found in some places (entire apartment blocks reserved for short term rentals)
You mean a hotel? Hotels are not inadequate for longer stays. If someone desires the comforts of a home, they can move there and actually rent/buy a home.
> The reason AirBnB exists is that tourists are not properly accounted for in city planning and not properly serviced by hotels.
This is a werid entitlement. Tourists aren't entitled to overrun and impose a serious negative impact upon a town/city's housing supply because they feel like they 'deserve' to vacation there.
You mean a hotel? Hotels are not inadequate for longer stays. If someone desires the comforts of a home, they can move there and actually rent/buy a home.
> The reason AirBnB exists is that tourists are not properly accounted for in city planning and not properly serviced by hotels.
This is a werid entitlement. Tourists aren't entitled to overrun and impose a serious negative impact upon a town/city's housing supply because they feel like they 'deserve' to vacation there.
Most hotel rooms don't have kitchens. It's not unreasonable to want a kitchen if you're staying somewhere for a week or two. But expecting those people to buy or lease a home is unreasonable. Short-term rental of homes is the solution to this.
It's called a residential hotel, and they're all over the place where business travelers stay by the day, week, or month.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartment_hotel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartment_hotel
It might be the solution to that, but it creates a lot more problems for the actual residents of the city. Drives up their rent, lowers their supply, makes them have to deal with neighbours coming in at all hours of the night, often without a care for the fact they even have neighbours who have to wake up and go to work in the morning. Ruins any community in a place. All the negative externalities get hoisted onto the actual residents of a town.
Now, should there maybe be an area of the city explicitly for short-term rentals, included in city planning? That's a different question; but it shouldn't be mixed in normal residential area, as all it does is make life worse for the actual residents.
Now, should there maybe be an area of the city explicitly for short-term rentals, included in city planning? That's a different question; but it shouldn't be mixed in normal residential area, as all it does is make life worse for the actual residents.
They make hotels for extended stays with kitchens - Homewood Suites, Embassy Suites, and Candlewood Suites are the big chains.
I lived in a Homewood Suites for three months. It was fine.
I lived in a Homewood Suites for three months. It was fine.
AirBnB homes are so much nicer than those sterile corporate chains. It is not the same experience.
>You mean a hotel? Hotels are not inadequate for longer stays. If someone desires the comforts of a home, they can move there and actually rent/buy a home.
What about a middle ground. If I go somewhere for 2-4 weeks? For that length of time I kind of want a proper kitchen, which I won't get in a hotel, but obviously it is not long enough to actually rent/buy a home.
What about a middle ground. If I go somewhere for 2-4 weeks? For that length of time I kind of want a proper kitchen, which I won't get in a hotel, but obviously it is not long enough to actually rent/buy a home.
>What about a middle ground. If I go somewhere for 2-4 weeks? For that length of time I kind of want a proper kitchen, which I won't get in a hotel, but obviously it is not long enough to actually rent/buy a home.
Not everywhere but at least in the US suite hotels with small kitchens are pretty common. Most of the big chains have one or more suite hotel brands. (Though honestly I not infrequently travel for 2-3 weeks and, while I definitely appreciate a refrigerator I pretty much never find I need a full kitchen. And being able to stretch out on a sofa is nice.)
Not everywhere but at least in the US suite hotels with small kitchens are pretty common. Most of the big chains have one or more suite hotel brands. (Though honestly I not infrequently travel for 2-3 weeks and, while I definitely appreciate a refrigerator I pretty much never find I need a full kitchen. And being able to stretch out on a sofa is nice.)
> I not infrequently travel for 2-3 weeks and, while I definitely appreciate a refrigerator I pretty much never find I need a full kitchen.
I'm guessing you're a high income individual with no kids then?
I'm guessing you're a high income individual with no kids then?
Yeah, for exorbitant amounts of money.
Compared to what? I'm staying in a Residence Inn in a week for basically the same price as the nearby standard Marriott and Sheraton are. And Residence Inn is probably on the higher end of the big chain suite brands. They're not budget but they're squarely in the same range as midrange business hotels in general. They're generally what I book if they're a good option.
This is exactly the entitlement I am speaking of. You want to go somewhere for an extended period. You want a proper kitchen. Your expectation is that the residents of a town or TheMarket should just... accomodate your desires? Regardless of their housing market, QoL, infrastructure, etc.?
Sheesh, jamie. I typically eschew using this term, but someone taking a 2-4 week vacation is already highly privileged to be able to do so. Tourism is a privilege. Not a right.
Sheesh, jamie. I typically eschew using this term, but someone taking a 2-4 week vacation is already highly privileged to be able to do so. Tourism is a privilege. Not a right.
Well, he wants and he is willing to pay, it's not like he's demanding it for free. The residents and the town should price it accordingly so that both sides benefit from the deal.
Following your logic, going to the bakery to buy bread instead of making it myself is "entitled" and disregards the baker's quality of life since he'd be much more comfortable sleeping than waking up at 5am to start preparing the bread.
Following your logic, going to the bakery to buy bread instead of making it myself is "entitled" and disregards the baker's quality of life since he'd be much more comfortable sleeping than waking up at 5am to start preparing the bread.
No, that was not my logic. You substituted your own. My argument is that under no circumstances is any entity 'required' to accomodate your desired market conditions. There are existing markets (i.e hotels) that towns/cities/whatevers provide. The mere desire from a consumer (or even massive group of them) does not oblige others to service that desire. And, the expectation that those desires are always met is the entitlement.
Many markets have demand, but society prevents their legal existence. For example, organ trades. I'm sure a lot of alcoholics would love just being able to go get a new liver whenever they want or when theirs fails. However, the... issues that creates have been deemed unacceptable and therefore, it's not allowed (obviously, it still happens illegally).
Some people want AirBnBs so they can have all the accoutrements of a home wherever they travel. Other people do not want such a market to exist, for a variety of reasons. I don't think that simply because an economic opportunity exists, it should be serviced or be allowed to be serviced. Obviously, advertisers want to increased the amount and effectiveness of their ads. FaceBook and Google would block out the sky and plaster it with ads if they could. Should they be allowed to?
Many markets have demand, but society prevents their legal existence. For example, organ trades. I'm sure a lot of alcoholics would love just being able to go get a new liver whenever they want or when theirs fails. However, the... issues that creates have been deemed unacceptable and therefore, it's not allowed (obviously, it still happens illegally).
Some people want AirBnBs so they can have all the accoutrements of a home wherever they travel. Other people do not want such a market to exist, for a variety of reasons. I don't think that simply because an economic opportunity exists, it should be serviced or be allowed to be serviced. Obviously, advertisers want to increased the amount and effectiveness of their ads. FaceBook and Google would block out the sky and plaster it with ads if they could. Should they be allowed to?
So much judgement in one post.
1. I am not saying the market/residents have to accommodate anything, I am simply stating my preference that if I have to travel for 5+ days I would rather have a full kitchen. If the residents don’t want to provide it, fine. If many other people feel as I do, then that’s kind of what markets are for.
2. I don’t typically take 2-4 week vacations, but I sometimes do travel for work for extended periods.
I recognise being able to travel at all is a privilege but having a personal preference for a full kitchen I don’t really think warrants such a judgemental response.
1. I am not saying the market/residents have to accommodate anything, I am simply stating my preference that if I have to travel for 5+ days I would rather have a full kitchen. If the residents don’t want to provide it, fine. If many other people feel as I do, then that’s kind of what markets are for.
2. I don’t typically take 2-4 week vacations, but I sometimes do travel for work for extended periods.
I recognise being able to travel at all is a privilege but having a personal preference for a full kitchen I don’t really think warrants such a judgemental response.
> tourists are not properly accounted for in city planning
Alternatively, tourists are unhappy that people in some areas don't want unlimited numbers of them and account for them properly with zoning restrictions.
Alternatively, tourists are unhappy that people in some areas don't want unlimited numbers of them and account for them properly with zoning restrictions.
Technically, the reason AirBnB exists is that if you aren't paying for most of the "serviced" part, including obeying the city planning and safety regulations, you can rent a property for less than an actual hotel and still make a lot of money.
No, they are accounted for. The issue is entitlement on the side of tourists -- thinking they should have access to all the local amenities and stuff they do at home, while on vacation. This was a problem, but it was never a huge problem, from how I understand it, before AirBnB. Basically AirBnB changed the expectations for tourists, at the harm of the local communities.
> however there are times when you want an entire house, not an apartment.
It's not your home, why should you deserve a house over someone who lives there?
> however there are times when you want an entire house, not an apartment.
It's not your home, why should you deserve a house over someone who lives there?
If a local wants to open their home to me, even if it’s a second home, why should that make me feel “entitled” to enjoy a taste of local life? (Ignoring Airbnb slumlords, which should probably be fought with regulation and/or Airbnb policy changes.)
There's rules and regulations against it, for one. Should locals be allowed to do whatever they want on their property with no regards to how it will impact neighbours and local economy? There's a reason we have zoning laws, etc, in place. There's lots of things we stop locals from doing because it's for the better of the community as a whole, and renting out short-term to tourists should be one (and, again, it sometimes already is but AirBnB allows them to skirt the regulations).
Locals should absolutely have the right and power to change their local laws to prohibit Airbnb. However, I'm not going to feel guilty for using Airbnb in places where it's legal, because it's simply a better product than hotels by a long shot (when it works).
I'd be willing to bet that in most places they're not legal, there's just nobody enforcing it. They're willfully in violation of a lot of rules and regulations that are already in place. And harming the locals so entitled tourists can think they're at home.
What about what the neighbors of the local’s home want? Do you want new neighbors every few days moving in to your neighbor’s house? Wouldn’t you be worried about your family‘s safety given the velocity of people going in and out of your neighbor’s house?
There's a real demand, but at one point the cost becomes too steep.
The cleaning and service fees are being universally complained about. It definitely reduced some demand, especially since some of it seemed to have started recently - last year ?
For long weekends, it becomes a very bad deal: the overhead of big service fees that are usually more than 1 day's rental, then you tack on the cleaning which can be 125-225 typically. You put those numbers together and sure, while there's demand, the demand is mitigated by the high cost. There's a demand for all sorts of consumer items in the world but people hit their limits.
And fundamentally, Airbnb competes with hotels. Their niche is to provide a better hotel experience: a bigger space, maybe a backyard, and definitely a kitchen. But many would rather go back to the tiny fridges filled with pricey junk food they never touch, if it means saving hundreds of dollars a weekend and flexible cancellation policies.
The cleaning and service fees are being universally complained about. It definitely reduced some demand, especially since some of it seemed to have started recently - last year ?
For long weekends, it becomes a very bad deal: the overhead of big service fees that are usually more than 1 day's rental, then you tack on the cleaning which can be 125-225 typically. You put those numbers together and sure, while there's demand, the demand is mitigated by the high cost. There's a demand for all sorts of consumer items in the world but people hit their limits.
And fundamentally, Airbnb competes with hotels. Their niche is to provide a better hotel experience: a bigger space, maybe a backyard, and definitely a kitchen. But many would rather go back to the tiny fridges filled with pricey junk food they never touch, if it means saving hundreds of dollars a weekend and flexible cancellation policies.
>There's a demand for all sorts of consumer items in the world but people hit their limits.
That's the thing with a lot of VC-subsidized services. There are a lot of services that consumers would be happy to, well, consume if they were cheap enough. Drivers, personal chefs, weekly housekeepers, lawn services, laundry pickup, etc. Even people with an upper middle class income are pretty selective about that sort of thing.
>But many would rather go back to the tiny fridges filled with pricey junk food they never touch, if it means saving hundreds of dollars a weekend and flexible cancellation policies.
Kitchens are not a big deal for me when I travel. A fridge is nice but you get a small one you can use a lot of the time in hotels these days and minibars seem to have mostly gone out of fashion.
That's the thing with a lot of VC-subsidized services. There are a lot of services that consumers would be happy to, well, consume if they were cheap enough. Drivers, personal chefs, weekly housekeepers, lawn services, laundry pickup, etc. Even people with an upper middle class income are pretty selective about that sort of thing.
>But many would rather go back to the tiny fridges filled with pricey junk food they never touch, if it means saving hundreds of dollars a weekend and flexible cancellation policies.
Kitchens are not a big deal for me when I travel. A fridge is nice but you get a small one you can use a lot of the time in hotels these days and minibars seem to have mostly gone out of fashion.
With 3 kids every meal at a restaurant is closer to $50 than $10, it adds up fast. Then getting 3 kids to sit down and not embarrass you! And then one isn't hungry! I love what airBnB could be. What it is right now sucks. The kitchen / whole house is a big deal. Just walking outside for a few minutes at a real house is a big relaxer that's a lot less manageable at a hotel.
I can certainly see with a family. I just personally don't use kitchens when traveling even when available.
> Kitchens are not a big deal for me when I travel. A fridge is nice but you get a small one you can use a lot of the time in hotels these days and minibars seem to have mostly gone out of fashion.
For me this is true if I'm traveling for < 1 week If I'm gone for more than that i don't want to eat every meal out and want to have some food + drink stored in my accommodation.
For me this is true if I'm traveling for < 1 week If I'm gone for more than that i don't want to eat every meal out and want to have some food + drink stored in my accommodation.
>cleaning which can be 125-225 typically
I agree with your point. Cleaning fees tend to make it hard to consider AirBnB for a weekend. That said, assuming the host doesn't just do it themselves, they're going to get a housekeeper in, rates are up for that sort of service, and that's about what it costs.
I agree with your point. Cleaning fees tend to make it hard to consider AirBnB for a weekend. That said, assuming the host doesn't just do it themselves, they're going to get a housekeeper in, rates are up for that sort of service, and that's about what it costs.
Then display it in the search criteria in the initial filter on the map view, instead of only when someone has selected the property and begins filling in dates.
It's a bait and switch by selecting which UI components are displayed in that search screen, and hiding the added costs ("service fee" and "cleaning fee").
Also, unlike a hotel an Airbnb host will give you a list of items to do upon leaving. And often passive-aggressively, "And it would be appreciated if you could put the towels and sheets in the washing machine for one wash as you leave so it's less work for the cleaning person" type commentary.
It's a bait and switch by selecting which UI components are displayed in that search screen, and hiding the added costs ("service fee" and "cleaning fee").
Also, unlike a hotel an Airbnb host will give you a list of items to do upon leaving. And often passive-aggressively, "And it would be appreciated if you could put the towels and sheets in the washing machine for one wash as you leave so it's less work for the cleaning person" type commentary.
I hate it generally when booking something doesn't make the final bottom line price obvious until you're ready to pay. Rental cars are another bad offender with all the taxes and fees.
VRBO existed before Airbnb, and I’m sure it will exist for quite a while longer. The concept isn’t the issue.
> 225 in cleaning fees
Ah yes, and then you read in the notes that you also have to do the laundry and wash the dishes.
Ah yes, and then you read in the notes that you also have to do the laundry and wash the dishes.
There are almost certainly automatic machines for both of those. Throwing the sheets and dishes into the washers before leaving on your last day isn't an unreasonable request. It only takes a few minutes.
(That said, fining somebody hundreds of dollars for not doing that is unreasonable for the same reason that the request is reasonable; because it's an easy thing to do.)
(That said, fining somebody hundreds of dollars for not doing that is unreasonable for the same reason that the request is reasonable; because it's an easy thing to do.)
The question of reasonableness cuts both ways: the high cost for the Airbnb unit plus the added fees including the cleaning ones, and the lists of guest to-do items upon check-out. The two combine and quick it becomes the feeling that you're paying a lot more than a hotel and yet have a lot more servicing to do yourself. If there is a very high cleaning fee, it becomes increasingly unreasonable to ask a lot of your guests to spend time cleaning everything before they leave.
Doing the dishes seems reasonable, I behave as a guest in an Airbnb.
If there's a $150 cleaning fee? Not really. Sure, I'll throw a few dishes in a dishwasher and run it. But it's not like I'm staying in a friend's condo for free.
Do you charge guests in your home $100/night to stay there?
I wonder if this is a chicken/egg thing? Host are charging this silly fee because guests were not cleaning up after themselves?
Like at a cafe, it's socially accepted that you put away (bus) your finished utensils.
Like at a cafe, it's socially accepted that you put away (bus) your finished utensils.
More than likely but that's not the point. If I stay at a hotel and I don't clean up after myself, I won't get charged a fee.
Just making sure I’m understanding you, at cafes where you live you clear your own dishes?
I haven’t encountered this before.
I haven’t encountered this before.
I bet someone on Hacker News can set up a website that mirrors AirBnB reviews as they are posted. This would prevent revisionism.
They can slap vacation ads on it and now they have a stable source of income!
They can slap vacation ads on it and now they have a stable source of income!
That's an excellent idea. I'd even consider paying a subscription for it (assuming I used Airbnb again, which I might with this service).
Could Airbnb challenge it legally though?
Could Airbnb challenge it legally though?
They will allege that reviews on the platform are Airbnb's copyright.
Yeah, I almost never consider an Airbnb nowadays for these extra costs. Hotels do this too (with city tax for example), but that is just a few extra dollars a night, and not almost as high as the cost per night.
I think the original spirit of someone renting out extra space they have is long gone. It's either a big company renting out what could have been rental units in the first place, or someone renting their place but you have to almost beg them to be flexible with timing, amenities, etc. I would feel much more comfortable complaining to a hotel if the beds are dirty, as opposed to an Airbnb host.
I think the original spirit of someone renting out extra space they have is long gone. It's either a big company renting out what could have been rental units in the first place, or someone renting their place but you have to almost beg them to be flexible with timing, amenities, etc. I would feel much more comfortable complaining to a hotel if the beds are dirty, as opposed to an Airbnb host.
Well and I don't have to do chores at a hotel. AirBnB says pay us $200 for a cleaning fee but make sure to take the sheets off the bed, cut the grass, and paint the walls before you leave.
I got a negative review on a property that charged a $250 cleaning fee for washing the dishes but not putting them away
>It's well known that negative reviews are scrubbed and even edited
If this is true, then I see no other blame than Airbnb themselves. If you make a platform allowing reviews in such a way that the "seller" can edit the reviews "users" make, then that's never going to become anything other than scammy. Even allowing a review to be scrubbed/removed by the seller is bad. There should be a mechanism to work with the platform to handle fake/false reviews, but the seller should never be able to do that on their own.
If this is true, then I see no other blame than Airbnb themselves. If you make a platform allowing reviews in such a way that the "seller" can edit the reviews "users" make, then that's never going to become anything other than scammy. Even allowing a review to be scrubbed/removed by the seller is bad. There should be a mechanism to work with the platform to handle fake/false reviews, but the seller should never be able to do that on their own.
They have a long list of things you can't complain about. One example is things that the seller can't change, like a loud train nearby. At least when I last used it if a single sentence in your review violated one of those policies your whole review was deleted and you couldn't submit a new one.
Interestingly their dispute process is very buyer-friendly, though. When a seller demands money in compensation for damage they often lose. I believe this is because Airbnb is on the hook if they can't collect from the buyer.
Interestingly their dispute process is very buyer-friendly, though. When a seller demands money in compensation for damage they often lose. I believe this is because Airbnb is on the hook if they can't collect from the buyer.
While I broadly agree with what you've written here, I think that:
> Airbnb needs hosts for its revenue. Clients are the product.
is not a useful way to think about this. AirBnb lives in a sort of weird parasitic-symbiotic relationship with both its hosts and the "guests". They are not trying to sell "guests" to anyone (they may do data collection and sale, but I think this not the cornerstone of their business model): what they rely on is an abundant supply of matching properties (not hosts!) and "guests". The hosts as people are irrelevant. If they lose "guests", less revenue. If they lose properties/listings, less revenue.
> Is the business model unsustainable?
The original AirBnb model (people renting spare rooms in their own homes, or maybe a casita on their property) was sustainable, but growth-limited. I don't know about the current one.
> Airbnb needs hosts for its revenue. Clients are the product.
is not a useful way to think about this. AirBnb lives in a sort of weird parasitic-symbiotic relationship with both its hosts and the "guests". They are not trying to sell "guests" to anyone (they may do data collection and sale, but I think this not the cornerstone of their business model): what they rely on is an abundant supply of matching properties (not hosts!) and "guests". The hosts as people are irrelevant. If they lose "guests", less revenue. If they lose properties/listings, less revenue.
> Is the business model unsustainable?
The original AirBnb model (people renting spare rooms in their own homes, or maybe a casita on their property) was sustainable, but growth-limited. I don't know about the current one.
> App Store app reviews, restaurant review apps and food delivery apps. Fortunately it's not a big deal if these are scams. It's just a few dollars.
Tourists traps excel on this niche of scam. They serve bad food at high prices, but quite often not so bad or expensive as to be illegal. The only reason this business exist is because most people would visit them just once, customers are replaced each day with new arriving tourists.
Everybody is a clueless tourist in the sea of Amazon products, applications in the App store or literally on Airbnb. They only need to sell once to a very small percentage of Amazon customers to be very successful, even if they never come back for obvious reasons.
Tourists traps excel on this niche of scam. They serve bad food at high prices, but quite often not so bad or expensive as to be illegal. The only reason this business exist is because most people would visit them just once, customers are replaced each day with new arriving tourists.
Everybody is a clueless tourist in the sea of Amazon products, applications in the App store or literally on Airbnb. They only need to sell once to a very small percentage of Amazon customers to be very successful, even if they never come back for obvious reasons.
You have nailed this. I have been pondering about such anonymous marketplaces and I came to similar conclusion as yours.
In a non-tourist marketplace you get lots of repeat customers and not too many inflow of new customers. So merchants are highly incentivised to provide decent quality service/product. If not then they won't get repeat customers and there aren't too many new customers to keep their business running. There's also a kind of word of mouth review. So chances of fake products and scammers is quite low.
Tourist markets on the other hand are exact opposite for reason you have already explained. And an online marketplace is essentially a tourist marketplace. There's a good reason Apple is so ruthless about Appstore moderation. They don't want it to turn into an Amazon like marketplace. The irony is Amazon's unique selling point was that they are not Ebay in that they would vouch for the quality of goods being sold there. But now in search of profit Amazon has become Ebay. And this is how every online marketplace will be I have seen way too many of them.
In a non-tourist marketplace you get lots of repeat customers and not too many inflow of new customers. So merchants are highly incentivised to provide decent quality service/product. If not then they won't get repeat customers and there aren't too many new customers to keep their business running. There's also a kind of word of mouth review. So chances of fake products and scammers is quite low.
Tourist markets on the other hand are exact opposite for reason you have already explained. And an online marketplace is essentially a tourist marketplace. There's a good reason Apple is so ruthless about Appstore moderation. They don't want it to turn into an Amazon like marketplace. The irony is Amazon's unique selling point was that they are not Ebay in that they would vouch for the quality of goods being sold there. But now in search of profit Amazon has become Ebay. And this is how every online marketplace will be I have seen way too many of them.
You can't win in this race. Do research in your tourist destination to avoid these places? Well Youtube is full of influencers pushing garbage info, Reddit is being quietly stuffed full of authentic sounding comments and you might as well forget Yelp/Tripadvisor. It seems like a massive scam perpetuated at all levels of the stack.
People used to buy travel books from known publishers where the author had at least gone to the restaurant or hotel at least once. I haven't bought one in decades, but maybe that is the future.
I still buy guidebooks all the time. They're not perfect but there's some reliable curation and the cost is trivial compared to other travel costs.
I've been a big fan of the Lonely Planet travel guides, and it's cheap enough to pick one up for the city - worth it even for just a couple of meals or ideas.
Holiday!
Inn!
Express!
Inn!
Express!
A franchise is very comforting. All of those consistent, comfortable minimum standards constantly checked by employees from checklists; the excellent insurance; the ability to speak to someone in charge when something goes wrong and get a nearly instant reply... comforting. When I stay in them, I don't even have to wonder if I'm raising residential rents in the area (although I'm certainly raising commercial ones.)
You can give me an 80% product, and I won't be impressed. You can give me that same 80% product, but consistently, and I'll be your best customer. AirBNB can be great, but wow they can be very bad, and at the end of the day I'm too old for that type of shit.
Holiday Inn Express might have beds fit for a Baggins, but everything down to the fold of the sheets and the pen/notepad is the same every time, and I cansure appreciate that.
Last AirBNB I was at told me to just not smoke all the 'courtesy items' on the shelf left by previous tenants.
Holiday Inn Express might have beds fit for a Baggins, but everything down to the fold of the sheets and the pen/notepad is the same every time, and I cansure appreciate that.
Last AirBNB I was at told me to just not smoke all the 'courtesy items' on the shelf left by previous tenants.
Were your airbnbs at the same price point as a hotel? There can be a big difference between a 60$ and 120$ Airbnb.
I'd estimate the AirBnB post-fees was roughly 40% higher than HIE post-checkout. I chose to stay there because it was a great location, and like the idea of paying a person rather than a corp. For the record, this was a metro area, there was ample access and selection for corporate alternatives, if anything was not to my liking I'm sure I could have gone somewhere else easily.
Nice people, but just not what everyone might have in mind as far as accommodations go. Or maybe it is, who knows.
Nice people, but just not what everyone might have in mind as far as accommodations go. Or maybe it is, who knows.
Free!
Breakfast!
Clean!
Rooms!
Breakfast!
Clean!
Rooms!
Amazon customers have the benefit of free returns, pretty much no questions asked within 30 days. I want to buy some commodity like an AC adapter or an SD card, I'll buy 3 or 4 different options and usually at least 1 of them will be OK, then I'll return the rest. If I only need 1 item and have multiple that work fine, I'll give positive reviews to the ones I return, which I feel is the least I can do for the seller.
With AirBNB and tourist traps, there are no refunds and the nature of the sale/service means you often can't find an alternative if you've decided to take the loss.
With AirBNB and tourist traps, there are no refunds and the nature of the sale/service means you often can't find an alternative if you've decided to take the loss.
I don't understand how a restaurant being bad at their job, having bad food (a subjective assessment) and charging a high amount is a "scam". That just sounds like a bad restaurant.
This is a useful way to think about how markets/platforms evolve.
I have yet to use Airbnb. But it seems that the target customer has changed. I have been aware of them since they first showed up on Hacker News. They were pitched as renting an airbed where hotels are not a useful choice. That target customer is a demographic that I had aged out of before they started. If they were still marketing only to very young people willing to sleep on an airbed and not risk-averse to bedbugs, there would be a lot less disappointment. But of course the company wants to, as all do, grow to other customers and markets.
I wonder if the original investors always thought that they would try to compete with hotels for higher end customers as they do now.
I have yet to use Airbnb. But it seems that the target customer has changed. I have been aware of them since they first showed up on Hacker News. They were pitched as renting an airbed where hotels are not a useful choice. That target customer is a demographic that I had aged out of before they started. If they were still marketing only to very young people willing to sleep on an airbed and not risk-averse to bedbugs, there would be a lot less disappointment. But of course the company wants to, as all do, grow to other customers and markets.
I wonder if the original investors always thought that they would try to compete with hotels for higher end customers as they do now.
It changed when it turned into a big VC thing. All of the “Uber for X” models are fundamentally evil at scale. The founders vision is irrelevant to the investors need for return.
The business model is to grow until the market is saturated, and then become one of the 3-4 entities that dominate their niche. VRBO chalked out the “vacation home” scope, hotels do their thing, so AirBnb dabbles in everything, but owns the “shared” accommodation part of the market. While they advertise a treehouse in the rainforest or whatever, the socially problematic conversions of apartments to flop houses in locations without hotels ultimately drives the business.
The business model is to grow until the market is saturated, and then become one of the 3-4 entities that dominate their niche. VRBO chalked out the “vacation home” scope, hotels do their thing, so AirBnb dabbles in everything, but owns the “shared” accommodation part of the market. While they advertise a treehouse in the rainforest or whatever, the socially problematic conversions of apartments to flop houses in locations without hotels ultimately drives the business.
These always remind me of the Stay Puft marshmallow man from Ghostbusters. Like the most innocuous thing ever becomes terrible at scale. Amazon, Uber, AirBnB, Facebook all seemed like reasonable to great ideas and were really neat at smaller scale. And once they grew they started wreaking havoc in new and unexpected ways.
It’s a good thought experiment for any startup - how could this cool thing that people like destroy the world if it became a paper clip maximizer?
It’s a good thought experiment for any startup - how could this cool thing that people like destroy the world if it became a paper clip maximizer?
Exactly, I was so optimistic that the only path was one of human enlightenment because of the internet's ability to scale up the distribution of information and allow groups to collaborate instantly.
It all went horribly wrong.
It all went horribly wrong.
Human's gonna human. :-)
Post-Google, I don't think there's any excuse for founders of marketplaces / platforms to ignore the ultimate metastasization of their business models.
If you are wildly successful (oh, to be so lucky), what will your company be forced to optimize?
Mid-years Amazon's radically generous customer service refunds and Etsy's seller revolt yanked their courses away from volume optimization for a few years... but it's their inevitable end state for boosting revenue. No public company can resist maximizing revenue by any means available, and especially when no other plausible alternatives are available.
So think really hard on how to set up a marketplace / platform with a business model that mixes in more user-aligned and sustainable goals? Looking at you, Apple...
If you are wildly successful (oh, to be so lucky), what will your company be forced to optimize?
Mid-years Amazon's radically generous customer service refunds and Etsy's seller revolt yanked their courses away from volume optimization for a few years... but it's their inevitable end state for boosting revenue. No public company can resist maximizing revenue by any means available, and especially when no other plausible alternatives are available.
So think really hard on how to set up a marketplace / platform with a business model that mixes in more user-aligned and sustainable goals? Looking at you, Apple...
This sounds like actually healthy productive places to exist and exchange might have to... exist outside of the realm of continuous growth by individuals motivated by ideology over profit.
The the need for cancer-like growth is really a driver of the worst behavior.
As a consumer of B2B services, I’m always amazed by the awful deals companies make to show revenue growth. One in particular a few years ago was particularly amazing. The sales dude was getting paid on revenue, and pushed through a deal that cost the company fortune. The entire sales chain of command retired and bought boats.
As a consumer of B2B services, I’m always amazed by the awful deals companies make to show revenue growth. One in particular a few years ago was particularly amazing. The sales dude was getting paid on revenue, and pushed through a deal that cost the company fortune. The entire sales chain of command retired and bought boats.
It started as being intended for VC, right? I remember YC being an investor and Paul Graham saying great things about the founders. Certainly they must have been counting on growth. Did they plan to just capture every airbed? Or to do to hotels what Uber did to taxis (both good and bad)?
All these (AirBNB, Uber, etc) e-companies do is take what's illegal, add "internet", and somehow is legal until the authorities can see through the shit-show.
And of course, while the grift is going, the execs and shareholders get rich. But everyone knows when the gig is up. Evidence: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/11/uber-doordash-plunge-as-labo...
And of course, while the grift is going, the execs and shareholders get rich. But everyone knows when the gig is up. Evidence: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/11/uber-doordash-plunge-as-labo...
Thank you for saying this. Sometimes I feel like I'm insane in that no one seems to acknowledge that many of these businesses are simply skirting real regulations because "internet" as you say so succinctly (e.g. PayPal skirting banking laws, Uber skirting Taxi laws, Amazon skirting tax laws etc.). Thankfully, it didn't/doesn't work in every country/case but it's apalling how often it did work.
btw. I'm all for interruption but please... it shouldn't be through these means (at least not on this scale).
btw. I'm all for interruption but please... it shouldn't be through these means (at least not on this scale).
> Amazon skirting tax laws
Never forget "skirting consumer product safety regulations and trademark protections". Their entire retail business at this point is no more subject to regulation than buying "designer" handbags off some dude's street stand.
Never forget "skirting consumer product safety regulations and trademark protections". Their entire retail business at this point is no more subject to regulation than buying "designer" handbags off some dude's street stand.
> authorities can see through the shit-show.
No, they hire the authorities, and the shit-show goes on forever. The gig is only up when they've passed their overvalued business on to late investors, who demand to be paid through strategic neglect of core functions, price rises to rational market values (or higher), and moonshot PR.
No, they hire the authorities, and the shit-show goes on forever. The gig is only up when they've passed their overvalued business on to late investors, who demand to be paid through strategic neglect of core functions, price rises to rational market values (or higher), and moonshot PR.
I don’t know. In the absence of specific details, I try to be generous in my assessment of founders.
I imagine that it could have pivoted in many directions. That’s really the tragedy of AirBnb. It seems like a platform that could have been more.
I imagine that it could have pivoted in many directions. That’s really the tragedy of AirBnb. It seems like a platform that could have been more.
I am not asking about the founders. I agree we should be generous when considering their experience. I am asking about the investors. They put money in at some estimation of total addressable market.
I love that you used the term flop house and it also accurately describes the value prop :)
> If they were still marketing only to very young people willing to sleep on an airbed and not risk-averse to bedbugs, there would be a lot less disappointment.
This would be fine if you were paying consummate prices. I’ve used AirBnB years back and for $20 a night you got about what you can expect.
$3000 for that hovel is extortionate!
This would be fine if you were paying consummate prices. I’ve used AirBnB years back and for $20 a night you got about what you can expect.
$3000 for that hovel is extortionate!
What AirBnB missed was to include hotels in its listings, which would have allowed them to over a complete experience for travelers in general. booking.com started with hotels and included more AirBnB style listings.
Expanding into different niches like that is difficult. It's like Booking.com expanding into the camping market. They end up trying to shoehorn camping into the same database tables as hotel stays and it just becomes an abomination which misses many of the subtleties in the market.
I think Booking.com expanding into camping would work fine in Europe, most campsites are busineses with a defined set of facilities that they offer.
Depends on the camp grounds. Those with specified and defined places it should be rather easy to do (Italy, Croatia, Germany are among those regions were you tend to have a lot those, France is a mixed bag and I haven't been to GB or Scandinavia recently). Those without defined places, that's gonna be difficult...
AirBnb lists some hotel rooms in Mexico.
A lot of B&Bs (in the sense of small inns) in the US do list on AirBnB.
What I don't get is ... where is the government in all this? As the article points out: the owners of the property clearly violate a lot of laws. So I hear violating the law gets you into "trouble with the law".
Well, clearly it doesn't.
Well, clearly it doesn't.
I once went to the German police over an illegal listing, after the owner got physical when I asked him to turn on the heat at night.
The police laughed at me and told me what I did wrong. Part of it was racism, but the other part of it was just laziness.
To actually get something to happen you have to send a letter to the general prosecutor, who then orders the police to investigate. This process takes months.
The police laughed at me and told me what I did wrong. Part of it was racism, but the other part of it was just laziness.
To actually get something to happen you have to send a letter to the general prosecutor, who then orders the police to investigate. This process takes months.
Government resources are not web scale. They do not and cannot scale except through legislation in some cases.
What happens when you do complain? You lose your illegal rental accommodation. This is not a win.
Are you saying there are no bedbugs in hotels?
If so, I have bed news for you.
No, that would be silly. I am aware of the risk of bedbugs. I know they are less likely in facilities regulated by local health departments.
basically, author expects calibrated minimal services, good support, and a minimal standard of quality. This is what you call a classic hotel/lodge. I fully agree with you, and those living close to these miserable BnB businesses surely would agree as well. This "model" is rotting city centers and popular places. AirBnB will never care about that poor lady. AirBnB will know how to make her anger disappear into the zero-star reviews statistics - it is much more important to keep a large density of cheap appts in the center of Lisbon.
There's no good reason AirBnb could not offer proper support. Showing contempt for your customers like this is a choice.
Might you tell us about any large, modern, fast-growing businesses which happily limit profits, so they can pay for high-quality customer support? Yes, it's "a choice". Sadly, it's an overwhelmingly popular choice.
And it's a popular choice because the consumers often don't seem to care. Many are willing to accept poor customer service in the pursuit of lower prices for goods and services.
My employer chooses to staff our customer support lines with North American agents who know what they are doing.
> any large, modern, fast-growing businesses which happily limit profits, so they can pay for high-quality customer support?
Famously, Chewy. Amazon (used to?) have a reputation for being very pro consumer. Zappos.
Obviously, those are all companies that grew because if I knew of fast growing businesses that were sustainable and likely to succeed I would be investing other people's money fulltime.
Famously, Chewy. Amazon (used to?) have a reputation for being very pro consumer. Zappos.
Obviously, those are all companies that grew because if I knew of fast growing businesses that were sustainable and likely to succeed I would be investing other people's money fulltime.
Zappos, from inception to 1B acquisition and beyond.
Although I would argue that Zappos didn't "limit profits." Rather they (correctly) surmised that the only way to successfully sell shoes online as a core business was to be seen as bending over backwards from a customer service perspective.
Which is not to take anything away from them but customer service is pretty much baked into their model.
Which is not to take anything away from them but customer service is pretty much baked into their model.
There is a very good reason: their business model. They absolutely do not want to be in the business of verifying and maintaining their listings.
I don’t know why I’ve had such a different experience to others, but in both cases where I complained to Airbnb when a host was unable or unwilling to offer a resolution, Airbnb made things right for me - in one case even covering the parking ticket I’d ended up with from the host’s crappy instructions, in the other, the listing was removed as the issues were too egregious to number.
Hotels are great.
They create jobs, they don't distort property markets in the same way as AirBnB, and you get breakfast!
They create jobs, they don't distort property markets in the same way as AirBnB, and you get breakfast!
To add to that: Hotels are rightly regulated.
The consumer is naturally disadvantaged: They can’t assess until they arrive, they must reserve in advance, and packing up and going elsewhere is often not an easy option.
Though I’ll add that even regulated hotels can be a hit or miss experience.
The consumer is naturally disadvantaged: They can’t assess until they arrive, they must reserve in advance, and packing up and going elsewhere is often not an easy option.
Though I’ll add that even regulated hotels can be a hit or miss experience.
Absolutely. The exception is when you're a large family, or even a not so large one. Most hotels have no good/affordable solution for parties larger than 2.
But when traveling as a couple, or alone as this lady is, there's no reason not to choose a hotel. Much better experience overall, and nowadays usually cheaper as well.
But when traveling as a couple, or alone as this lady is, there's no reason not to choose a hotel. Much better experience overall, and nowadays usually cheaper as well.
We tend to use Airbnbs when road tripping/caravaning with others. It is significantly less expensive than getting two hotel rooms. When its just my spouse and I, we almost always use hotels, because there is far less risk involved (though it is still possible to find hotels that not well-kept).
That said, we've used about two dozen Airbnbs over the years, all in the U.S., and have never stayed in a place that was not exactly what we expected based on the listing.
That said, we've used about two dozen Airbnbs over the years, all in the U.S., and have never stayed in a place that was not exactly what we expected based on the listing.
For over 4 ppl it's insane trying to find a good hotel rental - they're called suites, and they're uncommon and thus often booked or extremely expensive.
I just find a good 4 person room and we make do - or I Airbnb/VRBO.
I just find a good 4 person room and we make do - or I Airbnb/VRBO.
My sister uses AirBnB quite frequently because her and her partner are both Vegan. Having a kitchen is a big advantage over hotels.
There are suite hotels with kitchenettes if that's a priority.
I had to visit my employer in Ottawa (I live in the UK). They booked me into a suite hotel, because there was an international conference in town, and all the smaller rooms were booked.
So I got a huge TV, a kitchenette, a double bedroom with another huge TV, a bathroom with his-and-hers basins, and a single bedroom. The next morning I discovered a second bathroom, like the first; and a utility room with a washer and a dryer.
The problem was they didn't have a bar, so I couldn't get a bottle of wine. But not a big problem; the suite hotel shared a lift with the regular hotel next door. So I would ring the barman at the regular hotel, and he'd meet me on the second floor with my wine.
So I got a huge TV, a kitchenette, a double bedroom with another huge TV, a bathroom with his-and-hers basins, and a single bedroom. The next morning I discovered a second bathroom, like the first; and a utility room with a washer and a dryer.
The problem was they didn't have a bar, so I couldn't get a bottle of wine. But not a big problem; the suite hotel shared a lift with the regular hotel next door. So I would ring the barman at the regular hotel, and he'd meet me on the second floor with my wine.
The suite hotels in the US often don't have a bar and limited or no food service at night. Though there are exceptions. (Marriott has been upscaling Residence Inn in many cases--probably because they have so many suite brands after acquiring Sheraton.)
This might be an option in a lot of downtown areas but not on the outskirts of London (the hotels are mostly airport / motel types) or in the middle of nowhere in Scotland where 4 of my sister's previous Airbnb rentals have been.
Her last one was incredible. A lovely little 3 bed home with a hot tub in the garden room.
Her last one was incredible. A lovely little 3 bed home with a hot tub in the garden room.
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They are sometimes too small if you go with young kids and want to spend a week or so.
Really, in general, any time you want a real "home base" you don't mind spending hours in if, say, some outdoor activity gets rained out, AirBnBs are far nicer than a hotel. Hanging out in a hotel room sucks, hanging out in an AirBnB can be like hanging out at home except... kinda better, in some cases and in some ways.
Or for any getaway kind of situation where the point is mainly to be at the place that you are staying, not necessarily to get out a ton. Hotels are terrible for that, aside, perhaps, from ultra-expensive huge suites (I wouldn't know, I've never tried one, too pricey and I have a suspicion it'd still feel like being in a hotel room).
They're also great in rural areas. Often you can get an AirBnB much closer to some 2nd- or 3rd-rate way-off-the-interstate attraction you're interested in, than a hotel. Otherwise your only options would be camping or an RV.
Or for any getaway kind of situation where the point is mainly to be at the place that you are staying, not necessarily to get out a ton. Hotels are terrible for that, aside, perhaps, from ultra-expensive huge suites (I wouldn't know, I've never tried one, too pricey and I have a suspicion it'd still feel like being in a hotel room).
They're also great in rural areas. Often you can get an AirBnB much closer to some 2nd- or 3rd-rate way-off-the-interstate attraction you're interested in, than a hotel. Otherwise your only options would be camping or an RV.
There are tons of professionally managed rental companies that have been in operation for decades where you can rent houses. Same price as the "internet" grifters without any bullshit whatsoever.
> and you get breakfast!
Really? I don't know that this was ever guaranteed, and post-COVID it's definitely not. The ones I've seen are paltry compared to 10 years ago.
Really? I don't know that this was ever guaranteed, and post-COVID it's definitely not. The ones I've seen are paltry compared to 10 years ago.
Having stayed in some truly shitty hotels I would have to disagree with this sentiment.
Stay in better ones?
> Hotels are great.
You got to be kidding?
Last time I’ve used AirBnb it was a 1 bedroom half of the house, shady, private area with a creek, private yes - but in a walking distance to the downtown. I had a full kitchen, an office place to put my computer and monitor in and a personal, fast Internet connection. I even had a shed to put my bicycle in without a need to drag it into the house. The host configured the lock to be the last digits of my phone number - extremely convenient without a need to carry a piece of paper even to enter.
All that for a hundred dollars a day - same as nearby hotels where you get a crappy little room smelling of disinfectant, just a microwave and a small fridge, and my bike - last time I took my bike to a hotel it was stolen…
> and you get breakfast!
Ok, now I see that you’ve got me.
You got to be kidding?
Last time I’ve used AirBnb it was a 1 bedroom half of the house, shady, private area with a creek, private yes - but in a walking distance to the downtown. I had a full kitchen, an office place to put my computer and monitor in and a personal, fast Internet connection. I even had a shed to put my bicycle in without a need to drag it into the house. The host configured the lock to be the last digits of my phone number - extremely convenient without a need to carry a piece of paper even to enter.
All that for a hundred dollars a day - same as nearby hotels where you get a crappy little room smelling of disinfectant, just a microwave and a small fridge, and my bike - last time I took my bike to a hotel it was stolen…
> and you get breakfast!
Ok, now I see that you’ve got me.
Some hotels are good/bad. Some Airbnbs are good/bad. Tremendous insight.
Did you even read the article? The point is, staying at the Hyatt in a major city isn't a crapshoot.
Did you even read the article? The point is, staying at the Hyatt in a major city isn't a crapshoot.
> Some hotels are good/bad. Some Airbnbs are good/bad. Tremendous insight.
I do not know how you’ve managed to extract that insight from my post. The experience I’ve described with AirBnb is not possible with any hotel, Hyatt included.
> The point is, staying at the Hyatt in a major city isn't a crapshoot.
Take a look at Hyatt San Francisco, for example. See that the ground floor is occupied by some public areas exclusively? So I should either leave my bike in the place where it can be stolen, or to put it into my room via an elevator. Now it’s starting from $285, and $295 give you are a cottage in San Francisco on AirBnb: https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/6523507?check_in=2022-11-29&che...
So to be more precise:
- hotels, I can survive then, no prob. I can even survive Hyatt SF with my bicycle.
- AirBnbs give me pleasure. Get up, open the door to the garden, birds chirping, the creek floating, my favorite turnovers in the stove ready in 20 minutes, my laptop connected to Ethernet, my bicycle ready nearby - I can just jump on it and ride… Which of you “nicely regulated” hotels can give me all that?
To be fair, I’ve managed to get some pleasure from a hotel too. Now and then. A different pleasures though. And all of these hotels were in Japan.
I do not know how you’ve managed to extract that insight from my post. The experience I’ve described with AirBnb is not possible with any hotel, Hyatt included.
> The point is, staying at the Hyatt in a major city isn't a crapshoot.
Take a look at Hyatt San Francisco, for example. See that the ground floor is occupied by some public areas exclusively? So I should either leave my bike in the place where it can be stolen, or to put it into my room via an elevator. Now it’s starting from $285, and $295 give you are a cottage in San Francisco on AirBnb: https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/6523507?check_in=2022-11-29&che...
So to be more precise:
- hotels, I can survive then, no prob. I can even survive Hyatt SF with my bicycle.
- AirBnbs give me pleasure. Get up, open the door to the garden, birds chirping, the creek floating, my favorite turnovers in the stove ready in 20 minutes, my laptop connected to Ethernet, my bicycle ready nearby - I can just jump on it and ride… Which of you “nicely regulated” hotels can give me all that?
To be fair, I’ve managed to get some pleasure from a hotel too. Now and then. A different pleasures though. And all of these hotels were in Japan.
I'd add the nuance that you can end up with a pretty crappy experience at a 3+ star chain hotel for whatever reason. Usually though it's something that doesn't matter all that much at the end of the day like a room with minimal natural light.
But generally speaking midrange business hotels are utterly unexciting--which is to say they're predictable which is what I'm looking for from my hotel in general when I travel. I'm probably not there for the hotel experience.
But generally speaking midrange business hotels are utterly unexciting--which is to say they're predictable which is what I'm looking for from my hotel in general when I travel. I'm probably not there for the hotel experience.
There is a budget hotel chain in the UK (premierInn) where if you complain you get a free breakfast and if you make your complaint official you will get a full refund. They have remained profitable for many years despite the obvious incentive for people to make unwarranted complaints.
This, I think, is the critical difference. If I get a hotel room, enter it, and discover anything is out of joint, I can walk downstairs and ask the manager for a refund, or at least a different room. If the same thing happens with an Airbnb, and the host has no interest in helping, you are basically out of luck.
If your hotel reservation is not refundable - you are out of your luck. You can potentially get refund from credit card company, as I once did, but the same is available for AirBnb - never tried though, was no need.
Where was this?
Dropped pin
Near 5145 Antone Rd, Mariposa, CA 95338
https://goo.gl/maps/oeVqaChM9cRnNXKd6
You make a great point about the (de)evolution of marketplaces.
Does anyone have any thoughts about how marketplace operations could prevent this sort of race to the bottom rot? It does kind of feel like an inevitability these days and I wonder if there’s a real solution.
I suppose part of the problem is that the growth-at-all-costs mentality exists in conflict of quality-at-all-costs. Maybe the answer is just to stay small and niche, which enables quality control without scaling issues.
Does anyone have any thoughts about how marketplace operations could prevent this sort of race to the bottom rot? It does kind of feel like an inevitability these days and I wonder if there’s a real solution.
I suppose part of the problem is that the growth-at-all-costs mentality exists in conflict of quality-at-all-costs. Maybe the answer is just to stay small and niche, which enables quality control without scaling issues.
Regulations.
Put regulations on the Market Places to tighten up their process for accepting new sellers, and direct punishment of the Market Places themselves for selling bad products. These Market Places have no skin in the game when it comes to the stuff they sell, they need a reason to care. If they care, these problems start to sort themselves out.
For example, instead of just fining the AirBNB host for an illegal rental, they should also fine AirBNB say $50k per rental. Something high enough that they do their own verification of product. Or fine Amazon a similar amount every time they send out a fake SD card.
Put regulations on the Market Places to tighten up their process for accepting new sellers, and direct punishment of the Market Places themselves for selling bad products. These Market Places have no skin in the game when it comes to the stuff they sell, they need a reason to care. If they care, these problems start to sort themselves out.
For example, instead of just fining the AirBNB host for an illegal rental, they should also fine AirBNB say $50k per rental. Something high enough that they do their own verification of product. Or fine Amazon a similar amount every time they send out a fake SD card.
Or just have a lower fine that increases exponentially every time it occurs. That would make it easier for small companies to compete which would otherwise just have to go bankrupt on the first violation.
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I think you need to consider both parties:
1. The incentives of the platform
2. The incentives of the individual
For 1, a big part of the problem is the growth-at-all-costs mindset coming from VC incentives. In this case, having more hosts and deleting bad reviews directly helps the platform because it increases the market size and short-term profitability. You could argue that it hurts in the long-term when quality drops to unacceptable levels, but most companies don't care about that. Founders have already exited and executives have gotten paid. Also, by not growing quickly you're vulnerable to competitors that do grow more quickly. The only solution that comes to mind is to not have for-profit entities where founders/VC get rich behind these kind of platforms. It needs to be fully community-driven.
For 2, I think it's about skin in the game and trust. In many industries you can't go out and scam people without facing serious consequences. On these online platform you can, but you don't face real consequences. It's just another ban. Regulation with serious fines or jail time is one solution. Another solution is a (hypothetical) world where online identity is connected across services and tied to your real identity. Imagine getting a bad review on Airbnb actually has real-life consequences because it's tied to your identity. Perhaps that's what you get with the CCP, where people's online accounts for many services are associated with their government identities. I'm not saying these are desirable solutions, but they certainly would deter hosts from trying to game the system.
1. The incentives of the platform
2. The incentives of the individual
For 1, a big part of the problem is the growth-at-all-costs mindset coming from VC incentives. In this case, having more hosts and deleting bad reviews directly helps the platform because it increases the market size and short-term profitability. You could argue that it hurts in the long-term when quality drops to unacceptable levels, but most companies don't care about that. Founders have already exited and executives have gotten paid. Also, by not growing quickly you're vulnerable to competitors that do grow more quickly. The only solution that comes to mind is to not have for-profit entities where founders/VC get rich behind these kind of platforms. It needs to be fully community-driven.
For 2, I think it's about skin in the game and trust. In many industries you can't go out and scam people without facing serious consequences. On these online platform you can, but you don't face real consequences. It's just another ban. Regulation with serious fines or jail time is one solution. Another solution is a (hypothetical) world where online identity is connected across services and tied to your real identity. Imagine getting a bad review on Airbnb actually has real-life consequences because it's tied to your identity. Perhaps that's what you get with the CCP, where people's online accounts for many services are associated with their government identities. I'm not saying these are desirable solutions, but they certainly would deter hosts from trying to game the system.
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> They don't care if they're banned or reported. They'll just make a new fake account. Low ratings? No problem, just pay for some fake reviews.
Sorry, just a quick check - are you saying that rhetorically or do you mean it? Because as far as I know AirBNB relies on getting a genuine address in the system to work, and that is difficult to fake.
Sorry, just a quick check - are you saying that rhetorically or do you mean it? Because as far as I know AirBNB relies on getting a genuine address in the system to work, and that is difficult to fake.
Not hard to fake at all. Here are some of the ways
- Large friends and family network, rotate through other peoples homes
- Own a series of apartment buildings, rotate through addresses
- Unoccupied buildings with accessible mail drops (pick up mail from outside)
Similar tricks exist for non-residential address requirements.
Never underestimate the creativity of scammers.
- Large friends and family network, rotate through other peoples homes
- Own a series of apartment buildings, rotate through addresses
- Unoccupied buildings with accessible mail drops (pick up mail from outside)
Similar tricks exist for non-residential address requirements.
Never underestimate the creativity of scammers.
And genuine government-issued ID, which is also difficult to fake.
If you know the right people, no it's not.
And these types of scammers are and know the "right" people.
And these types of scammers are and know the "right" people.
Airbnb are not a govt agency and can not tell a genuine document image from one which has been slightly altered.
There is a reason why stolen passports are so valuable.
There is a reason why stolen passports are so valuable.
Ever since the worker shortage started, the quality of traditional hotels has gone down the hole. I have traveled far more this year than any other year in my life and my anecdotal experience shows that below 4 star the quality has just nosedives so much so that you don't know what you are getting until you show up and end up feeling lucky or totally screwed. And I am referring to hotels in America(Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Detroit) and Europe/UK(Amsterdam, Dublin, London).
I spent vacations in California this year, and noticed the same: housekeeping is every 5 days instead of everyday, hotel bars/restaurants are either closed or turned into fast foods (menu consists only of burgers, sandwiches and salads), amenities like gyms are closed. And all that for prices that are significantly higher than before the pandemic.
Hotels have definitely cut back on servicing rooms. Although honestly? I not infrequently stay in "serviced apartments" that are only cleaned once a week. And that's just fine. The housekeeper is more likely to interrupt me to clean the room than provide a service I actually care about.
Housekeeping is now largely "upon request" with sometimes a minimum and I absolutely love that. I don't really care for housekeeping everyday, I'll let them know if I need anything. I don't know of any hotel that will refuse to send housekeeping everyday if you request it. You just need to request it.
I've been staying at the same a hotel every few months for the last four years, even during 2020. The last time I checked in instead of saying "let us know when you want housekeeping" like they have for the last 3 years; they started saying "what's your preferred housekeeping interval?" I think that's a better system to ask than question.
The only slight downside for me is that if I'm in a room for a while the toilet paper can start to run low, but that's fixed with a text to the front desk.
I've been staying at the same a hotel every few months for the last four years, even during 2020. The last time I checked in instead of saying "let us know when you want housekeeping" like they have for the last 3 years; they started saying "what's your preferred housekeeping interval?" I think that's a better system to ask than question.
The only slight downside for me is that if I'm in a room for a while the toilet paper can start to run low, but that's fixed with a text to the front desk.
That's not my experience. The last two hotels I stayed at -- Doubletree Hilton in Dallas and Shelborne in Miami -- had daily housekeeping without any request. But perhaps that's just a fluke. Maybe it depends on which city you are visiting, too.
Interestingly when I was looking up the info on the Doubletree, they mentioned something about housekeeping every X days (not every day), but when I arrived, it was daily. I didn't make any request for it, it could be that the website is just out of date, as I suspect this is more about staffing than anything else.
Interestingly when I was looking up the info on the Doubletree, they mentioned something about housekeeping every X days (not every day), but when I arrived, it was daily. I didn't make any request for it, it could be that the website is just out of date, as I suspect this is more about staffing than anything else.
I'm with you - I don't need (or even want, really) my room cleaned every day. It's friggin annoying. I always happen to be needing to access the room when housekeeping is in there. Just come once every 3-5 days if it comes to that, thanks.
Makes me think that there's a market for a 3rd party website for reviews for AirBnB hosts (and probably guests).
But a new host might not get any guests if they don't have a review on this site, and if the guests avoid them, then no one will review them. An idea would be for a host to pay a refundable deposit, and the website could indicate them as so, "We have no reviews for this host, but they have guaranteed with $money that their listing is legitimate/accurate.". After the first review comes, they can get the deposit refunded. But aha, this doesn't protect against fake reviews by friends and accomplices of a dodgy host...
But a new host might not get any guests if they don't have a review on this site, and if the guests avoid them, then no one will review them. An idea would be for a host to pay a refundable deposit, and the website could indicate them as so, "We have no reviews for this host, but they have guaranteed with $money that their listing is legitimate/accurate.". After the first review comes, they can get the deposit refunded. But aha, this doesn't protect against fake reviews by friends and accomplices of a dodgy host...
It's fundamentally a problem of trust. Hotels and big brands work because you can trust them. Why do you trust them? Because they have skin in the game. If their products suck their brand suffers and that's what they want to avoid the most. If Apple releases crappy products they can't just create a new "BtwNotApple" brand. They can sell overpriced products because you're paying for trust/brand.
In these semi-anonymous marketplaces you fundamentally don't have trust. There is no skin in the game for sellers since their identity and brand is not sticky. If you get banned or do something against the ToS it's not a big deal. Regulation is a possibility, e.g. make people go to jail, but I doubt that could work on this scale. Or it would make innovation impossible. You need a fundamentally different incentive model.
In these semi-anonymous marketplaces you fundamentally don't have trust. There is no skin in the game for sellers since their identity and brand is not sticky. If you get banned or do something against the ToS it's not a big deal. Regulation is a possibility, e.g. make people go to jail, but I doubt that could work on this scale. Or it would make innovation impossible. You need a fundamentally different incentive model.
Hmm, I've never used it, but something like Silkroad worked, it did not have trust issues. To me it reads like they try to save pennies on customer support.
The differences between Silk Road and Airbnb is that the former didn't have lots of investors and techbros to pay returns to, so they could actually offer a fair escrow service and still remain profitable, where as Airbnb has to commit fraud by pitching you an "insurance" service that never actually pays out because doing so would lower or even negate the techbros' returns.
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> It's fundamentally a problem of trust.
Absolutely. That's where bitcoin could help a new platform, as a decentralized trust protocol. The bisq.network protocol requires people to put up significant bonds to perform roles that are trusted, and then if they fail to perform well, they can loose some or all of their bond. The bisq token holders (bisq tokens are simply colored satoshis, i.e. they've built functional governance directly on bitcoin) vote monthly on various governance proposals, and can thus hold people doing bonded roles accountable.
The tough question is whether such a system could make to individual apartment rentals in the real world. Its an oracle question: how to you establish the truth of competing claimed about the state if an apartment? Not an easy problem to solve, but if its solveable it could provide an amazing new marketplace.
Absolutely. That's where bitcoin could help a new platform, as a decentralized trust protocol. The bisq.network protocol requires people to put up significant bonds to perform roles that are trusted, and then if they fail to perform well, they can loose some or all of their bond. The bisq token holders (bisq tokens are simply colored satoshis, i.e. they've built functional governance directly on bitcoin) vote monthly on various governance proposals, and can thus hold people doing bonded roles accountable.
The tough question is whether such a system could make to individual apartment rentals in the real world. Its an oracle question: how to you establish the truth of competing claimed about the state if an apartment? Not an easy problem to solve, but if its solveable it could provide an amazing new marketplace.
Or review faking services. Ultimately, there's no real good way to trust stuff on the internet based on what "others like you" are saying.
Reviews of the hosts are already informally available in the reviews of the rooms and apartments. It's the number-one thing I look for when booking: the reviews should be raving about not only the place, but also the host. If this is not happening, or the reviews are mainly short and neutral, I don't book.
I did get tripped up despite this rule once, when I booked a private room in an apartment and arrived to find the host going on vacation. After he left, a massive mouse infestation stirred up by basement construction the prior week surfaced, and I escaped down several flights of stairs in the dark surrounded by a cacophony of squeaking in the walls. I think a mouse ran over my foot. I have mostly stayed in hotels since.
But I've had many wonderful Airbnb experiences in the past, and I do believe my one terrible experience was an outlier (albeit traumatic). I would have started using it again, but high-quality Airbnb listings exceeded hotels in price in my country, so I stick with hotels, especially since I earned status with some programs.
I did get tripped up despite this rule once, when I booked a private room in an apartment and arrived to find the host going on vacation. After he left, a massive mouse infestation stirred up by basement construction the prior week surfaced, and I escaped down several flights of stairs in the dark surrounded by a cacophony of squeaking in the walls. I think a mouse ran over my foot. I have mostly stayed in hotels since.
But I've had many wonderful Airbnb experiences in the past, and I do believe my one terrible experience was an outlier (albeit traumatic). I would have started using it again, but high-quality Airbnb listings exceeded hotels in price in my country, so I stick with hotels, especially since I earned status with some programs.
> But a new host might not get any guests if they don't have a review on this site, and if the guests avoid them, then no one will review them.
The new host needs to price their listing substantially below competitors, to the point where some poor bloke is willing to take a risk, in order to build up a review base.
The new host needs to price their listing substantially below competitors, to the point where some poor bloke is willing to take a risk, in order to build up a review base.
But then won't they have to jack up the price, after earning a sufficient threshold of trust, to compensate for the huge losses their making at the beginning?
i.e. price their beds the same as hotels, or higher?
i.e. price their beds the same as hotels, or higher?
No, they can't do that, because, you know, competition. Basically, those few weeks/months of below market rate prices are the cost of bootstrapping your business. Of course, if, over time, you acquire stellar reputation, then you probably can price yourself slightly higher than competitors based on that. But that's very unstable state.
Competition from who? Every established, high trust, host will charge at least the minimum viable rate to break even.
Anyone who charges lower then the minimum viable will simply never break even, given that the money spent to accumulate trust has an opportunity cost.
The cheapest hotels will be priced about the same.
Low or zero trust hosts can't compete against high trust folks without a huge discount as already discussed.
Anyone who charges lower then the minimum viable will simply never break even, given that the money spent to accumulate trust has an opportunity cost.
The cheapest hotels will be priced about the same.
Low or zero trust hosts can't compete against high trust folks without a huge discount as already discussed.
They will raise their prices until they are in the normal market range.
That's different from jacking up the price "to compensate" for the losses at the start. They just have to eat the initial costs, and it will take a while for normal market profits to put them in the black.
That's different from jacking up the price "to compensate" for the losses at the start. They just have to eat the initial costs, and it will take a while for normal market profits to put them in the black.
No, because money has a time value, the break even rate will be higher because a dollar today is worth more than a dollar a few months from now. It by definition will cause the rates to be higher then they otherwise would be. This might be worth paying for to be guaranteed a high trust host. But that doesn’t the change the fact that the costs are shifted around instead of being reduced overall.
It's also exacerbated by a lot of people looking for a bargain however slight.
Historically, B&Bs (in the sense of a small inn as opposed to a spare room) were not really cheaper than more traditional hotels and most of the entire houses listed on VRBO weren't wither (although they might have been better choices for a family or group).
I suspect a lot of people who have consistently bad experiences on AirBnB (and Amazon for that matter) also consistently pick the lowest price even if it's a bargain that seems too good to be true.
One of the benefits of chain hotels is consistency. The experience is almost always going to be somewhere from very good to good to mediocre depending on the brand (which correlates with price). They'll rarely be exquisite but that's fine most of the time. I'm rarely traveling for the hotel experience.
Historically, B&Bs (in the sense of a small inn as opposed to a spare room) were not really cheaper than more traditional hotels and most of the entire houses listed on VRBO weren't wither (although they might have been better choices for a family or group).
I suspect a lot of people who have consistently bad experiences on AirBnB (and Amazon for that matter) also consistently pick the lowest price even if it's a bargain that seems too good to be true.
One of the benefits of chain hotels is consistency. The experience is almost always going to be somewhere from very good to good to mediocre depending on the brand (which correlates with price). They'll rarely be exquisite but that's fine most of the time. I'm rarely traveling for the hotel experience.
> After the initial phase of early adopters that offer generally high quality products, a flood of fake or low-quality listing tries to squeeze money out of the platform.
See "We become what we behold" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33273640 and https://ncase.me/trust/ from the first comment. A high trust society, or marketplace, is an opportunity for the defectors to extract value. Unless they can be punished somehow ...
See "We become what we behold" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33273640 and https://ncase.me/trust/ from the first comment. A high trust society, or marketplace, is an opportunity for the defectors to extract value. Unless they can be punished somehow ...
>After the initial phase of early adopters that offer generally high quality products, a flood of fake or low-quality listing tries to squeeze money out of the platform.
That AND at some point the platform stops subsidizing the service with investment cash - so inevitably the prices rise.
>How to deal with it? Personally I've started going back to hotels to be safe.
I think it will reach some steady state, where there is a niche for traditional hotels and "P2P" rental marketplaces.
That AND at some point the platform stops subsidizing the service with investment cash - so inevitably the prices rise.
>How to deal with it? Personally I've started going back to hotels to be safe.
I think it will reach some steady state, where there is a niche for traditional hotels and "P2P" rental marketplaces.
I’m an early adopter of things like this and I’ve been using Airbnb since about Day 1. There was so much promise early. One of my best AirBnB memories was staying at a startup hotel in SF through AirBnB, the hosts had purchased a Victorian house to turn into a boutique hotel, seemed young and optimistic, and it was a fun, quirky experience. There was still construction and things happening, apparently we were one of the first few people to ever stay there under its new ownership.
So I’ve been using Airbnb regularly, travel regularly, and in the last 2ish years have moved all my work travel to Marriott. For scale, checking my Marriott app right now, I’ve stayed 77 nights in Marriotts this year so far. This used to be all Airbnb stays, but as you mention the hosts have become so unpredictable and listings do not match up to the experience that it’s more hassle and actively hostile to stay in Airbnb in a new city to get to know some quirky neighborhood on a work trip. And the usual complaint of basically a chore list to do at the end combined with huge cleaning fees on top of the chore list.
Currently my only Airbnb exception is that my partner and I have two airbnbs that we know to be good in resort towns and when we’re going there we book those Airbnbs if available, because they have known good experiences and good hosts. Otherwise we don’t even look at other options, particularly because we use those during vacations where we want to relax, and instead just book Four Seasons or whatever nice hotel is there because the experience will be good and consistent.
I really yearn for the early Airbnb days though when listings were more accurate and high quality and one could explore a new neighborhood (perhaps one without traditional hotels one might never stay in without Airbnb).
As an aside, I started using UberEats since literal Day 1 when they were driving circles around the city with a fixed menu, you selected your meal, one of them would drop it off to you within minutes. It was amazing. But now of course the hordes have descended and it’s 90% ghost kitchens serving slop in my city.
So I’ve been using Airbnb regularly, travel regularly, and in the last 2ish years have moved all my work travel to Marriott. For scale, checking my Marriott app right now, I’ve stayed 77 nights in Marriotts this year so far. This used to be all Airbnb stays, but as you mention the hosts have become so unpredictable and listings do not match up to the experience that it’s more hassle and actively hostile to stay in Airbnb in a new city to get to know some quirky neighborhood on a work trip. And the usual complaint of basically a chore list to do at the end combined with huge cleaning fees on top of the chore list.
Currently my only Airbnb exception is that my partner and I have two airbnbs that we know to be good in resort towns and when we’re going there we book those Airbnbs if available, because they have known good experiences and good hosts. Otherwise we don’t even look at other options, particularly because we use those during vacations where we want to relax, and instead just book Four Seasons or whatever nice hotel is there because the experience will be good and consistent.
I really yearn for the early Airbnb days though when listings were more accurate and high quality and one could explore a new neighborhood (perhaps one without traditional hotels one might never stay in without Airbnb).
As an aside, I started using UberEats since literal Day 1 when they were driving circles around the city with a fixed menu, you selected your meal, one of them would drop it off to you within minutes. It was amazing. But now of course the hordes have descended and it’s 90% ghost kitchens serving slop in my city.
If I'm traveling on business I mostly just want predictability. I might want somewhere I can leave my bag after I check out. I want to be able to get in at midnight if my flight is delayed.
Sure I like less sanitized experiences and I'll roll the dice a bit more on vacation--and it usually works out. But for routine business travel I'll do without the variables.
Sure I like less sanitized experiences and I'll roll the dice a bit more on vacation--and it usually works out. But for routine business travel I'll do without the variables.
Accountability, responsibility and minimum standards. Hotels provide these, Airbnb does not. Hotels are direct service providers; Airbnb is a middle-man which does not assume responsibility nor enforces minimum standards effectively.
These are the reasons I have also long since returned to use of hotels.
These are the reasons I have also long since returned to use of hotels.
Chain-of-trust
The problem you've described applies to a lot of stuff, from hiring to finding a reliable mechanic. I've started relying more on word-of-mouth, whenever possible. Let someone else waste their money trying out new products/services.
The problem you've described applies to a lot of stuff, from hiring to finding a reliable mechanic. I've started relying more on word-of-mouth, whenever possible. Let someone else waste their money trying out new products/services.
Interesting take. I'll be thinking about that. I wonder how much aggressive and active curation and validation might improve things.
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My family went to an Airbnb (basically they were selling themselves as sort of resort) and when my wife saw she had to cook, etc... She was really mad. The listing didn't say it. Long history short, never again. We're going to resorts and hotels ever since. The extra money is not that much since Airbnb basically ramping up their prices.
The last two times we traveled, we looked at Airbnb versus hotels. The Airbnb's were all ~$150 for a bedroom in a shared space with shared bathroom/kitchen/living room, or ~1000-~1500 for a house or one floor of a two-story house. The hotel was $325 and $275 for a suite style in both cities.
To me, it's worth it to get consistent quality, guaranteed privacy, no questions about safety, and again, consistency in quality.
To me, it's worth it to get consistent quality, guaranteed privacy, no questions about safety, and again, consistency in quality.
And I prefer Airbnb because sometimes I can't afford hotels. It means you're richer than me. I'm glad there are offerings for both of us.
In many markets the prices are very close, once you factor in Airbnb's fees, cleaning services and local taxes/levies. Airbnb is most useful for non-traditional stays, like a cabin at the lake.
I’ve never seen an AirBnB listing say you have to cook, because it’s assumed.
“BnB” means bed and breakfast, which of course has lost its meaning with Airbnb.
I knew someone whose family ran a small bed-and-breakfast (pre-web).
I don’t think they cooked all 3 meals but they did at least provide breakfast and brownbag lunch.
I knew someone whose family ran a small bed-and-breakfast (pre-web).
I don’t think they cooked all 3 meals but they did at least provide breakfast and brownbag lunch.
Well the "Air" part is for air mattress, which is no longer true, if it ever was. The name was supposed to connotate a very spartan take on a traditional bed-and-breakfast. I've never heard of anyone booking all-inclusive travel through airbnb.
In my experience, and I've stayed at a lot of them, BnBs usually have a hot sit down breakfast but it's not universal. I've certainly stayed at BnBs where the host is politely but firmly clear they're not there to entertain you and there will be coffee out in the morning and feel free to grab some yogurt from the fridge. While there is usually fruit and muffins that you can grab for lunch, they don't usually provide a brownbag lunch as such and rarely dinner.
I've been to hotels like that: yeah, there's a breakfast room; but breakfast is a plastic cup of coffee, a roll, and a packet of cornflakes.
I hate staying in hotels, but one benefit is getting a nice hot breakfast served to you.
I hate staying in hotels, but one benefit is getting a nice hot breakfast served to you.
The hotels with free breakfasts in the US tend to be pretty crappy buffets. Generally a lot different from what's served at a good BnB. But at least it's something and I'm not inclined to pay for a full breakfast given I don't normally eat one.
You make it sound like you weren't affected by the need to cook? Do you know how to cook?
Edit: If you weren't on that trip then please accept my apologies.
Edit: If you weren't on that trip then please accept my apologies.
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She was mad because she had to cook? Perhaps she didn't realize it was an AirBnB? I had no idea there were fully-catered AirBnBs.
This stuff is incredibly common in short term rental market. You are scraping the bottom of the barrel on landlord scruples.
There was a recent fire in a summer vacation town popular with NYers. The town requires summer short term rental landlords to get a permit & inspection. The landlord did not get one. The landlord also had sketchy kitchen wiring that was probably some sort of DIY and not up to code. The landlord had removed batteries and hardwiring from 3 smoke detectors. These are the kind of things the inspector would have found immediately.
A family visiting from out of state lost 2 of their 3 children in this fire.
Apps like AirBnB create the facade of officialness on what are instead very sketchy markets. Family probably thought they were doing the right thing going through an app and the landlord must be verified and more "legit". Being from out of state they wouldn't know the intricacies of local town permit&inspection requirements and how to check if the landlord has one, etc.
Likewise in my condo in NYC, we had one particular owner who was trying to use their unit as an Airbnb. Regardless of the local laws which were tightening up at the time, our condo expressly forbid short term rentals, and had language around minimum length of stay and lease approval requirements. It only stopped when we started fining them $1000 per incident.
Stuff like this matters because you buy a condo to live in it and don't expect the unit on the other side of your bedroom wall to essentially be a hotel room with new neighbors every 3 days, staying up all hours (vacation, yay), dragging suitcases in&out at odd hours multiple times per week.. forever.
The building itself takes on a lot more wear & tear, and they put a burden on staff as they think the building porter&doorman are there for them like a hotel concierge and front desk.
There was a recent fire in a summer vacation town popular with NYers. The town requires summer short term rental landlords to get a permit & inspection. The landlord did not get one. The landlord also had sketchy kitchen wiring that was probably some sort of DIY and not up to code. The landlord had removed batteries and hardwiring from 3 smoke detectors. These are the kind of things the inspector would have found immediately.
A family visiting from out of state lost 2 of their 3 children in this fire.
Apps like AirBnB create the facade of officialness on what are instead very sketchy markets. Family probably thought they were doing the right thing going through an app and the landlord must be verified and more "legit". Being from out of state they wouldn't know the intricacies of local town permit&inspection requirements and how to check if the landlord has one, etc.
Likewise in my condo in NYC, we had one particular owner who was trying to use their unit as an Airbnb. Regardless of the local laws which were tightening up at the time, our condo expressly forbid short term rentals, and had language around minimum length of stay and lease approval requirements. It only stopped when we started fining them $1000 per incident.
Stuff like this matters because you buy a condo to live in it and don't expect the unit on the other side of your bedroom wall to essentially be a hotel room with new neighbors every 3 days, staying up all hours (vacation, yay), dragging suitcases in&out at odd hours multiple times per week.. forever.
The building itself takes on a lot more wear & tear, and they put a burden on staff as they think the building porter&doorman are there for them like a hotel concierge and front desk.
I'm on the board of the Norwegian equivalent of a condo association, and I wish we could fine an owner every time we got complaints from other residents! Unfortunately the laws still have loopholes that make it very hard for us to hold him accountable as long as he claims to actually be living there. --In Norway you have to have a primary residence registered, and you're allowed to rent out spare rooms in your primary residence, even on short-term sites. We'd basically have to spend a lot of money to have a 3rd party come knocking on the door every night for several months to prove whether or not he's really living there so that we can take proper action.
Why does it have to be a third party? Can't it just be someone on the board who lives in the building?
Couldn't you just throw some security cams up at the entrances and just track coming and going and total stay time? You'd only have to review footage after a reasonable suspicion.
Couldn't you just throw some security cams up at the entrances and just track coming and going and total stay time? You'd only have to review footage after a reasonable suspicion.
That is horrible. Let's just call it what it is: Airbnb are professional liars who use disgusting legal tactics like forced arbitration to sweep things under the carpet--all to make quarterly numbers.
> our condo expressly forbid short term rentals, and had language around minimum length of stay and lease approval requirements. It only stopped when we started fining them $1000 per incident.
At least this part sounds like the system working correctly?
At least this part sounds like the system working correctly?
The problem is all of these platforms that basically automate & scale illegality.
The platforms act like its not their responsibility to verify compliance and hide behind terms of use & arbitration. Consumers assume that everything is on the up&up because they are going through big public company intermediary.
For example, as sketchy as real estate brokers are (very) .. they generally aren't going to put you into a literally illegal apartment. There is personable responsibility and concern about liability.
Why is it that all these SV firms can use amazing AI/ML to target ads, and sell us stuff but its impossible to use similar for following laws. Look at Ubers efforts to circumvent local regulators, its the same flavor.
The platforms act like its not their responsibility to verify compliance and hide behind terms of use & arbitration. Consumers assume that everything is on the up&up because they are going through big public company intermediary.
For example, as sketchy as real estate brokers are (very) .. they generally aren't going to put you into a literally illegal apartment. There is personable responsibility and concern about liability.
Why is it that all these SV firms can use amazing AI/ML to target ads, and sell us stuff but its impossible to use similar for following laws. Look at Ubers efforts to circumvent local regulators, its the same flavor.
A system, but not AirBNBs system.
It's unreasonable to expect AirBNB to enforce your HOA rules. That's a private contract between you and your neighbors.
It's reasonable for AirBnB to verify that their hosts are in compliance with the law.
I am a landlord: I let a single house, to a family. New regulations came in on 1st September, requiring the property to be registered. I already had a valid gas safety certificate, expiring in 2 months, and an electrical safety certificate good for two more years. Registration also required an energy performance certificate, which I had.
But collecting all these documents, along with the precise dimensions of each room in the house, including the kitchen and bathroom, has been a terrible hassle.
I'm a good landlord; I don't mess with the rent mid-term, I fix things quickly, aand I don't bother my tenants. They are good tenants; they are German, and Germans know how rental is supposed to work.
I live in a flat, and my neighbour is an AirBnB, whose owner lives in Bavaria, and whose "host" lives in another town. It seems to be a nice clean apartment; but it's illegal, because local regs ban holiday lets in homes that are suitable for residential use. AirBnB don't give a shit. I notified the local authority, and they're trying to close it down. The "hosts" have appealed, so this saga has been going on for a year.
The problems, for me, are that I share the front-door of the block with complete strangers (where my post is delivered); the guests don't understand UK recycling rules, and dump mixed waste in my recycling bin (resulting in non-collection); and sometimes they have noisy parties. More generally, most of my neighbours seem to be investment properties; there are no kids around here, and I only know a handful of neighbours. AirBnB has sucked the life out of this neighbourhood.
I am a landlord: I let a single house, to a family. New regulations came in on 1st September, requiring the property to be registered. I already had a valid gas safety certificate, expiring in 2 months, and an electrical safety certificate good for two more years. Registration also required an energy performance certificate, which I had.
But collecting all these documents, along with the precise dimensions of each room in the house, including the kitchen and bathroom, has been a terrible hassle.
I'm a good landlord; I don't mess with the rent mid-term, I fix things quickly, aand I don't bother my tenants. They are good tenants; they are German, and Germans know how rental is supposed to work.
I live in a flat, and my neighbour is an AirBnB, whose owner lives in Bavaria, and whose "host" lives in another town. It seems to be a nice clean apartment; but it's illegal, because local regs ban holiday lets in homes that are suitable for residential use. AirBnB don't give a shit. I notified the local authority, and they're trying to close it down. The "hosts" have appealed, so this saga has been going on for a year.
The problems, for me, are that I share the front-door of the block with complete strangers (where my post is delivered); the guests don't understand UK recycling rules, and dump mixed waste in my recycling bin (resulting in non-collection); and sometimes they have noisy parties. More generally, most of my neighbours seem to be investment properties; there are no kids around here, and I only know a handful of neighbours. AirBnB has sucked the life out of this neighbourhood.
HOA rules aren't law.
But it's also unreasonable to expect AirBNB to keep up with the uncountable legal jurisdictions of the world. Every locality - down to the city block - could have different rules.
If your neighbor is violating the law, that's your neighbor's fault. If you want to do something about it, you have the power.
But it's also unreasonable to expect AirBNB to keep up with the uncountable legal jurisdictions of the world. Every locality - down to the city block - could have different rules.
If your neighbor is violating the law, that's your neighbor's fault. If you want to do something about it, you have the power.
Why is it that when a broker shows an apartment they can be expected & liable for showing illegal units/terms/etc, but when Big Tech apps which replace their jobs at scale do it.. "it's hard" so "they shouldn't be expected to"?
It really isn't that hard, and they don't even try because it would reduce their revenue. We can argue if they need to enforce block by block HOA & condos/coops rules.. but they aren't even trying at more macro levels like state/town laws.
I live part of the year in a large summer town with ~100k residents. It has clear, well known rental laws that have been on the books longer than AirBnB existed. For example the minimum lease term is 2 weeks. Yet, of course, if I go to AirBnB and search in town, there are 100 homes being offered by the day. Meanwhile if I go to any of the brokerages to be shown rentals, they only offer month/summer/year length rentals.. because its the law.
It really isn't that hard, and they don't even try because it would reduce their revenue. We can argue if they need to enforce block by block HOA & condos/coops rules.. but they aren't even trying at more macro levels like state/town laws.
I live part of the year in a large summer town with ~100k residents. It has clear, well known rental laws that have been on the books longer than AirBnB existed. For example the minimum lease term is 2 weeks. Yet, of course, if I go to AirBnB and search in town, there are 100 homes being offered by the day. Meanwhile if I go to any of the brokerages to be shown rentals, they only offer month/summer/year length rentals.. because its the law.
Taking it a step further, even large jurisdictions like NYC with 8M people have 1000s of AirBnB listings that are not following even the basic parameters of local law.
"New York City: Rentals under 30 days are prohibited unless the host is present on the property."
OK, great, well why are there daily/weekly AirBnB rentals of "entire apartments" all around NYC with host descriptions like:
During your stay William is available via text or phone if you have any questions about the space. I will try my best to preempt any questions by leaving detailed instructions about the operation of the space.
During your stay I’m available everyday from 9 am until 12am to answer questions and help with anything you might need if I don’t reply fast, feel free to call me
During your stay Will have an open line of communication and on-site support Response rate: 100% Response time: within a few hours
"New York City: Rentals under 30 days are prohibited unless the host is present on the property."
OK, great, well why are there daily/weekly AirBnB rentals of "entire apartments" all around NYC with host descriptions like:
During your stay William is available via text or phone if you have any questions about the space. I will try my best to preempt any questions by leaving detailed instructions about the operation of the space.
During your stay I’m available everyday from 9 am until 12am to answer questions and help with anything you might need if I don’t reply fast, feel free to call me
During your stay Will have an open line of communication and on-site support Response rate: 100% Response time: within a few hours
> local regs ban holiday lets in homes that are suitable for residential use.
Is that the same as banning holiday lets in homes entirely? What does a house or proper apartment that's not suitable for residential use look like?
Is that the same as banning holiday lets in homes entirely? What does a house or proper apartment that's not suitable for residential use look like?
This is a University town. It's stuffed with student accomodation, a.k.a. "homes in multiple occupation".
Yes, I think it's roughly like what you said: the Council doesn't want holiday homes in this town. Housing is expensive here, because in addition to two universites, it has a cluster of big hospitals. But we still need inexpensive housing for the multitude of low-paid wokers those institutions require.
Tourists are a boon for some places, but this town would work better with less tourists (few of the tourists buy anything, and most of them don't stay overnight anyway - they just want a selfie in front of an old building).
[Edit] Not exactly; an old-fashioned couch-surfing isn't ruled out. Nor is am apartment let for less than 90 days a year. But anything that could be an attempt to get around student-housing regulations is probably banned, because that's heavily regulated.
Yes, I think it's roughly like what you said: the Council doesn't want holiday homes in this town. Housing is expensive here, because in addition to two universites, it has a cluster of big hospitals. But we still need inexpensive housing for the multitude of low-paid wokers those institutions require.
Tourists are a boon for some places, but this town would work better with less tourists (few of the tourists buy anything, and most of them don't stay overnight anyway - they just want a selfie in front of an old building).
[Edit] Not exactly; an old-fashioned couch-surfing isn't ruled out. Nor is am apartment let for less than 90 days a year. But anything that could be an attempt to get around student-housing regulations is probably banned, because that's heavily regulated.
I'm not sure that's true... 99% of dwellings in, say, NYC are Condos, Coops or Rentals - and all buildings have management agents (or acting as your own as an individual for a building) on file with the NYC Department of Buildings.
Requiring a letter explicitly allowing a listing from the managing agent on record prior to publishing the listing wouldn't be particularly onerous. Of course their listings would drop dramatically since most aren't by the book, but feature not a bug?
Requiring a letter explicitly allowing a listing from the managing agent on record prior to publishing the listing wouldn't be particularly onerous. Of course their listings would drop dramatically since most aren't by the book, but feature not a bug?
Agreed. Exactly my point.
These tech platform marketplaces are willing to do lots of AI/ML hocus-pocus & throw bodies at things like targeted ads, onboarding new suppliers (drivers/landlords), whatever helps their KPIs, etc.. but not on following the law/rules. That is because it would reduce sales, knowing that they are implicitly allowing illegalities on their market places.
These tech platform marketplaces are willing to do lots of AI/ML hocus-pocus & throw bodies at things like targeted ads, onboarding new suppliers (drivers/landlords), whatever helps their KPIs, etc.. but not on following the law/rules. That is because it would reduce sales, knowing that they are implicitly allowing illegalities on their market places.
No I think it is.
A broker leasing a unit on an owners behalf would immediately confirm the lease is in compliance.
Why does a technology platform get to automate & scale in a less compliant manner?
Yeah, I'm sure the code is kind of hard to write, that doesn't mean you can violate laws & contracts, because the code is challenging.
We have so many examples of these platforms disrupting locals & human jobs to automate & scale globally, while ignoring laws, regulations, etc. Just because its easier to make money assisting illegality doesn't mean it should be legal to do so.
Look at all the work Banks have to do on AML/KYC/etc to make sure organized crime, narcotics, terrorism and sanctioned nationals money does not get to use the USD financial system. It's not perfect of course. And it's hard for sure, theres entire organizations at every banks with 100s or 1000s of employees responsible. Why does Silicon Valley always get a free pass?
Why does a technology platform get to automate & scale in a less compliant manner?
Yeah, I'm sure the code is kind of hard to write, that doesn't mean you can violate laws & contracts, because the code is challenging.
We have so many examples of these platforms disrupting locals & human jobs to automate & scale globally, while ignoring laws, regulations, etc. Just because its easier to make money assisting illegality doesn't mean it should be legal to do so.
Look at all the work Banks have to do on AML/KYC/etc to make sure organized crime, narcotics, terrorism and sanctioned nationals money does not get to use the USD financial system. It's not perfect of course. And it's hard for sure, theres entire organizations at every banks with 100s or 1000s of employees responsible. Why does Silicon Valley always get a free pass?
Basically even if it's not expressly forbidden it's an obvious misuse in pretty much any multi family dwelling. If your lease doesn't forbid you from keeping cows indoors it doesn't mean your not an asshole for keeping cows in your apartment.
As long as it's not damaging anything, why should I care about someone having cows?
Damage is obviously a problem and not the issue at hand.
Damage is obviously a problem and not the issue at hand.
"As long as it's not damaging anything, why should I care about someone having cows?"
Noise, smells, sanitation, etc
Noise, smells, sanitation, etc
If your floor isn't being damaged by cow, it's probably not very loud, is it?
Same for whether it's sanitary enough to not be causing any damage.
And realistically I'm picturing roughly one cow would fit.
Same for whether it's sanitary enough to not be causing any damage.
And realistically I'm picturing roughly one cow would fit.
If only there was some regulation for such services that would require some sort of standard. You know some sort of licensing by the state. /s
This is what you get when you skirt laws, artificially lowering prices to kill competition and exploit workers. Stop complaining, it's your own doing for supporting this type of economy. Only because maybe some of those existing laws were cumbersome or outdated doesn't mean you just go around all of them.
This is what you get when you skirt laws, artificially lowering prices to kill competition and exploit workers. Stop complaining, it's your own doing for supporting this type of economy. Only because maybe some of those existing laws were cumbersome or outdated doesn't mean you just go around all of them.
It seems to work better with Lyft et al., probably because there's a larger supply of "normal people who are interested in driving", better economics around renting the asset (vehicle), and the driver (aka host) having to be physically present in the vehicle.
The scaled AirBnB model was always questionable... at some point, you've literally signed up everyone normal with a quality rental. But you still need to increase supply, which means taking what new hosts/properties you can get.
Did AirBnB ever fool with the McDonald's model? I.e. own the property/land, but provide financing to hosts who want to manage and work it? The economics on that might work out in certain areas, if they were smart about it. And it would directly target the "increase quality supply directly" problem.
The scaled AirBnB model was always questionable... at some point, you've literally signed up everyone normal with a quality rental. But you still need to increase supply, which means taking what new hosts/properties you can get.
Did AirBnB ever fool with the McDonald's model? I.e. own the property/land, but provide financing to hosts who want to manage and work it? The economics on that might work out in certain areas, if they were smart about it. And it would directly target the "increase quality supply directly" problem.
a lot of rape cases in Uber and Bolt in Warsaw Poland. Safe for men to drive unsafe for women.
Is that different than a normal taxi? If anything a lot of people find ride shares more safe because you have a digital record of the drivers identity which historically wasn’t the case with taxis.
Artificially lowering prices? You mean basic supply and demand?
The regulations aren't guests responsibility the hosts and airbnb should be compliant.
AirBnB and competitors are very important despite their flaws. Standard rentals are too inflexible for long term (month long) travellers and the hotel industry is either too expensive or not designed for long term stays.
As a digital nomad, I've had my share of bad accommodation (and really really good ones as well). Usually I just write them off and leave early, or identify stuff within the first day, that's very important. If you think you're going to be unhappy with the product you have to back out quickly.
False information or problems at the start of the accommodation, like broken items, are a deal breaker. This has been quite rare, and it might be the hundreds and hundreds of nights of stays but the two times I've had to contact AirBnB support it's gone in my favour (that's not to minimise the experience of the OP).
More often the bad experiences with AirBnBs are more subtle. Items that are just not comfortable or kitchens that don't really have what you need to cook.
Of the 65 hosts I've stayed with, 2 were bad enough to leave (as mentioned), and probably 2-3 more were the suffer through variety. That's not a bad percentage really.
The regulations aren't guests responsibility the hosts and airbnb should be compliant.
AirBnB and competitors are very important despite their flaws. Standard rentals are too inflexible for long term (month long) travellers and the hotel industry is either too expensive or not designed for long term stays.
As a digital nomad, I've had my share of bad accommodation (and really really good ones as well). Usually I just write them off and leave early, or identify stuff within the first day, that's very important. If you think you're going to be unhappy with the product you have to back out quickly.
False information or problems at the start of the accommodation, like broken items, are a deal breaker. This has been quite rare, and it might be the hundreds and hundreds of nights of stays but the two times I've had to contact AirBnB support it's gone in my favour (that's not to minimise the experience of the OP).
More often the bad experiences with AirBnBs are more subtle. Items that are just not comfortable or kitchens that don't really have what you need to cook.
Of the 65 hosts I've stayed with, 2 were bad enough to leave (as mentioned), and probably 2-3 more were the suffer through variety. That's not a bad percentage really.
The issue is that the service that you as a digital nomad enjoy turns the life of permanent residents into misery. Unregulated, private short term rentals are a blight upon cities. Is this a price worth paying for the convenience of vacationers/nomads?
There's nothing wrong with AirBnb in principle, but I strongly suspect if they were properly regulated and actually carried out the necessary checks, provided an adequate level of guarantees and service, suddenly their business model would be much less viable.
In effect, AirBnb externalizes the cost of their business to local residents and authorities, but they harvest the profits. They are not the only industry operating under such framework of course.
There's nothing wrong with AirBnb in principle, but I strongly suspect if they were properly regulated and actually carried out the necessary checks, provided an adequate level of guarantees and service, suddenly their business model would be much less viable.
In effect, AirBnb externalizes the cost of their business to local residents and authorities, but they harvest the profits. They are not the only industry operating under such framework of course.
It's always a complicated issue. Depending on the city/region, tourists can be the life blood. More than a few places that I've visited you're a welcome addition to the local ecosystem, bringing much needed revenue.
There is always a healthy layer of NIMBY, I want to be a tourist but I don't want tourists to come where I live.
Sure, they should be regulated, and in many places in Europe they are regulated.
Any business/housing has the potential to be bad for neighbours, which is why we have zoning and planning laws. Bars and nightclubs, industrial businesses, apartment buildings. Short term rentals are no different, rules and taxes should apply. Fines should be imposed for rowdy party behaviour (which is one of the more negative aspects of short-term rentals).
There is always a healthy layer of NIMBY, I want to be a tourist but I don't want tourists to come where I live.
Sure, they should be regulated, and in many places in Europe they are regulated.
Any business/housing has the potential to be bad for neighbours, which is why we have zoning and planning laws. Bars and nightclubs, industrial businesses, apartment buildings. Short term rentals are no different, rules and taxes should apply. Fines should be imposed for rowdy party behaviour (which is one of the more negative aspects of short-term rentals).
And AirBnB skirts these zoning laws by basically allowing hotels in areas not zoned for them. Tourists aren't locals, they shouldn't get housing at the locals' expense, which is exactly what is happening. Housing prices go up for locals, they have to deal with all the downsides of basically living next to a hotel all because tourists feel entitled to not have to stay in places meant for tourists. It's destroying cities - Dublin, for instance, is beyond ridiculous. And at one point there's more AirBnB to rent in city centre Dublin than apartments in the entire country. AirBnB is a big cause on the housing crisis because they circumvent rules and push all externalities to the locals.
For reference:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33286238
> Standard rentals are too inflexible for long term (month long) travellers and the hotel industry is either too expensive or not designed for long term stays.
Most of the major hotel brands have chains intended for long term stays. My wife, son and I stayed at one for five months a few years ago when we moved out of our apartment and decided to get a house built at the last minute. We didn’t want to pay month to month rates.
I’ve already booked rooms from November 1st through the end of next October in about 30 different hotels - mostly Hyatt Places, Home2Suites and Homewood suites. We are staying in hotels for 265 days between that time and our own vacation property/investment property the rest of the year.
We are taking real “vacations” for a few days in more expensive places using points we accrue. I made it my goal to keep our lodging expenses for the year the same as the all in cost of our current mortgage+utilities.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33286238
> Standard rentals are too inflexible for long term (month long) travellers and the hotel industry is either too expensive or not designed for long term stays.
Most of the major hotel brands have chains intended for long term stays. My wife, son and I stayed at one for five months a few years ago when we moved out of our apartment and decided to get a house built at the last minute. We didn’t want to pay month to month rates.
I’ve already booked rooms from November 1st through the end of next October in about 30 different hotels - mostly Hyatt Places, Home2Suites and Homewood suites. We are staying in hotels for 265 days between that time and our own vacation property/investment property the rest of the year.
We are taking real “vacations” for a few days in more expensive places using points we accrue. I made it my goal to keep our lodging expenses for the year the same as the all in cost of our current mortgage+utilities.
Passed the edit window. Corrected link.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33287435
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33287435
Yeah, we've stayed in accommodation like this as well. Often very shitty experiences in business aparthotels. Always good to have a list though.
I used to stay at Hyatt House pretty regularly, and it was a great experience
Lately it's sucked just like every other hotel, since they don't clean the rooms and the employees are all overworked and stressed out. Still better than having to deal with all the huge fees and shenanigans from AirBNB IMO
Lately it's sucked just like every other hotel, since they don't clean the rooms and the employees are all overworked and stressed out. Still better than having to deal with all the huge fees and shenanigans from AirBNB IMO
Unfortunately, there are relatively few Hyatt Houses in the US.
I work during the week. I like business “aparthotel”. I know I’ll usually have a comfortable desk in the room with an adjustable chair. Decent “premium Wifi” at Hiltons (Diamond member) and a level of consistency.
[deleted]
Guilty as charged. I saw this and went back to use hotels ans resorts (they employ thousands and help local economy).
AirBnBs tend to employ people as well (cleaning, maintenannce, administration).
With many hotels the money is actually flowing out of the local community as the business is owned by a big multi-national. It's not really so cut and dried in favour of hotels.
With many hotels the money is actually flowing out of the local community as the business is owned by a big multi-national. It's not really so cut and dried in favour of hotels.
A bunch of remarks:
Lisbon has a horrible housing crisis. Locals are barely (or not at all, in many cases) able to afford living there anymore, and airbnb has been there making the problem worse every step of the way. I hope the author gets plenty of evidence and reports this place to the authorities, then stops using airbnb.
Note that in Portugal garbage is usually collected from nearby (unsaturated green colored) lidded trash cans and dumpsters owned by the city government or entities contracted to it, where residents are expected to leave their trash. Lisbon does have a bit of a trash overload problem ongoing (more recent than the housing crisis), but there should always be a dumpster nearby where people can drop off trash for collection, leaving it right next to the container if the container is full. For this one single issue I imagine there was a miscommunication due to the language barrier.
Sometimes (speaking from personal experience), especially in a place so obviously neglected and unused, the toilet discharge issue can be as simple as grit or rust inside the tank preventing the part that drops to block off the water flow from moving, but it can be mechanically pushed down (or even washed to get rid of the grit permanently). Not to excuse the owner; just a possible way to make the author's stay a little less miserable.
It seems very hazardous to live in a place as damp as the author reported, damp enough that it attracted slugs and the water vapor likely got in the electrical system, causing a short circuit . Must be a real dump if it got this damp with the drought going on before this week. There are probably a lot of hazardous mold spores. They should have set up a dehumidifying solution immediately (three weeks ago); I would depart right away if possible.
Lisbon has a horrible housing crisis. Locals are barely (or not at all, in many cases) able to afford living there anymore, and airbnb has been there making the problem worse every step of the way. I hope the author gets plenty of evidence and reports this place to the authorities, then stops using airbnb.
Note that in Portugal garbage is usually collected from nearby (unsaturated green colored) lidded trash cans and dumpsters owned by the city government or entities contracted to it, where residents are expected to leave their trash. Lisbon does have a bit of a trash overload problem ongoing (more recent than the housing crisis), but there should always be a dumpster nearby where people can drop off trash for collection, leaving it right next to the container if the container is full. For this one single issue I imagine there was a miscommunication due to the language barrier.
Sometimes (speaking from personal experience), especially in a place so obviously neglected and unused, the toilet discharge issue can be as simple as grit or rust inside the tank preventing the part that drops to block off the water flow from moving, but it can be mechanically pushed down (or even washed to get rid of the grit permanently). Not to excuse the owner; just a possible way to make the author's stay a little less miserable.
It seems very hazardous to live in a place as damp as the author reported, damp enough that it attracted slugs and the water vapor likely got in the electrical system, causing a short circuit . Must be a real dump if it got this damp with the drought going on before this week. There are probably a lot of hazardous mold spores. They should have set up a dehumidifying solution immediately (three weeks ago); I would depart right away if possible.
Yeah the damp / mold smell is a no-go for me. I rented a place in a popular east coast resort town for the family, and the first thing that hit me was the damp and moldy smell of an existing or recent moisture problem. Not an AirBnB, but some hosts/rental places just don't care about guest comfort.
It cast a pall over the whole stay. It was hard for me to be comfortable, I could not imagine a long-term stay. The kids didn't mind though, and luckily we weren't worse off for it.
It cast a pall over the whole stay. It was hard for me to be comfortable, I could not imagine a long-term stay. The kids didn't mind though, and luckily we weren't worse off for it.
> Note that in Portugal garbage is usually collected from nearby (unsaturated green colored) lidded trash cans and dumpsters owned by the city government or entities contracted to it
Is this uniform across all of portugal? In spain, it differs by neighbourhood. Where I live, you drop landfill rubbish beside front door between 20:00 & 22:00 and it gets picked up. 100m away in another neighbourhood they have underground depots that you drop it into. In the newer parts of the city they do have containers on the corner of each block.
Is this uniform across all of portugal? In spain, it differs by neighbourhood. Where I live, you drop landfill rubbish beside front door between 20:00 & 22:00 and it gets picked up. 100m away in another neighbourhood they have underground depots that you drop it into. In the newer parts of the city they do have containers on the corner of each block.
Since it's the responsability of the municipality it's impossible for me personally to tell, but I've been all over the country and the green (or grey, depending on location) containers are ubiquitous (or drop points with underground deposits, sure). If specific neighborhoods of Lisbon do it differently I'm afraid I wouldn't know. It's not impossible.
The glory days of Airbnb are over. It's been flooded with dodgy hosts, and the customer support has failed to keep up. Hotels have improved their service and the prices aren't that different any more.
If I'm after a more self contained holiday rental type of experience, I tend to look for places that have their own websites and independent reviews. They are, admittedly, a bit more expensive than what you'd find on Airbnb, but I find that if they've put the effort into building a website and social media, then they tend to be a decent quality.
If I'm after a more self contained holiday rental type of experience, I tend to look for places that have their own websites and independent reviews. They are, admittedly, a bit more expensive than what you'd find on Airbnb, but I find that if they've put the effort into building a website and social media, then they tend to be a decent quality.
Disagree on the > cost component - the stated nightly rates may be lower than AirBNB, but with all costs AirBNB is generally uncompetive
You rent a cabin through a local company somewhere in Tahoe and it'll be ~400 a night, flat. AirBNB's include cleaning fees, AirBNBs unlisted cut, and the need to clean up after yourself. Absolutely ridiculous.
You rent a cabin through a local company somewhere in Tahoe and it'll be ~400 a night, flat. AirBNB's include cleaning fees, AirBNBs unlisted cut, and the need to clean up after yourself. Absolutely ridiculous.
I've used Airbnb ~30 times in multiple countries and have never had issues.
Some places have been dirtier than I expected (nothing horrible though), some were much smaller than the pictures suggested, but the for the vast majority of cases it has been a good experience. When the experience wasn't good, I rated and commented accordingly, so the host got their rating lowered and maybe did something about it. I also met some of the owners, which was a nice experience.
For work I had to travel for 1, 2, 3 weeks at a time and it wouldn't have made sense in economic terms to get a hotel, so I'm glad airbnb existed.
New hosts might be an issue, but hosts with good reputation are, in my experience, not a problem.
I can see the problem where whole neighborhoods get used for airbnb, driving costs up for residents. I imagine that's a tiny minority of cities...where jt makes sense to enforce laws to avoid this. For the rest of the cities? In my opinion airbnb is a net benefit: if creates a product that didn't exist before and allows buyers and sellers to benefit from this transaction. For me at least (and the people I know which is, admittedly, a non random sample) it has been a good experience. I'm sure in most places it's riskier than hotels. Yes, there's a trade-off.
Some places have been dirtier than I expected (nothing horrible though), some were much smaller than the pictures suggested, but the for the vast majority of cases it has been a good experience. When the experience wasn't good, I rated and commented accordingly, so the host got their rating lowered and maybe did something about it. I also met some of the owners, which was a nice experience.
For work I had to travel for 1, 2, 3 weeks at a time and it wouldn't have made sense in economic terms to get a hotel, so I'm glad airbnb existed.
New hosts might be an issue, but hosts with good reputation are, in my experience, not a problem.
I can see the problem where whole neighborhoods get used for airbnb, driving costs up for residents. I imagine that's a tiny minority of cities...where jt makes sense to enforce laws to avoid this. For the rest of the cities? In my opinion airbnb is a net benefit: if creates a product that didn't exist before and allows buyers and sellers to benefit from this transaction. For me at least (and the people I know which is, admittedly, a non random sample) it has been a good experience. I'm sure in most places it's riskier than hotels. Yes, there's a trade-off.
Same. I also find that for the same price range Airbnbs tend to be much more homey and clean with newer remodels. the majority of hotels I’ve stayed at as an adult have left me thinking “wow I’m paying 200$ for THIS?!” Due to limited space or lots of scuff marks and stains from daily wear and often being decades old. Airbnbs tend to be kept “Pinterest fresh” and have a kitchen and living room that are a game changer for comfort. Also they help you actually see a neighborhood with local culture instead of just a downtown or a business district.
Yep. Had an Airbnb setup this week in Atlanta, looked good, responsive host.
We arrived, looked clean and decorated well enough, but had 4 glade plugins for a 500sqft place… seemed excessive like their might be a bad smell hidden.
Sat down on a chaise which collapsed because of a leg attached by gum. Found a cockroach under said chaise. Reported it and the owner said it was treated the other day, so it should be fine.
Sat down on the couch, which also collapsed, one leg was missing and was held up by a coffee mug. The bed frame had cinder blocks and children’s notebooks supporting it, (stubbed my toe on the cinder block). Bathroom fixtures were loose, sink basins were not properly seated to their countertops, inviting mold.
In the morning I found 3 more cockroaches roaming around the otherwise clean looking kitchen.
I named one of them Gregor. Airbnb gave us a refund for the nights unspent and we’ve spent the rest of the time at a brand name hotel. More expensive, but more options for recourse if things go south.
If not for the cockroaches it would have been bearable, but the combination of issues left too many doubts as to the safety of the place. My wife and I could not find rest there.
Airbnbs can be nice and give you a real sense of being a resident of a place, but the quality control truly is a gamble. These days, I increasingly prefer the consistency of a hotel bed.
I will say this, the thermostat was better at the Airbnb than the hotel. No auto feature in the hotel.
We arrived, looked clean and decorated well enough, but had 4 glade plugins for a 500sqft place… seemed excessive like their might be a bad smell hidden.
Sat down on a chaise which collapsed because of a leg attached by gum. Found a cockroach under said chaise. Reported it and the owner said it was treated the other day, so it should be fine.
Sat down on the couch, which also collapsed, one leg was missing and was held up by a coffee mug. The bed frame had cinder blocks and children’s notebooks supporting it, (stubbed my toe on the cinder block). Bathroom fixtures were loose, sink basins were not properly seated to their countertops, inviting mold.
In the morning I found 3 more cockroaches roaming around the otherwise clean looking kitchen.
I named one of them Gregor. Airbnb gave us a refund for the nights unspent and we’ve spent the rest of the time at a brand name hotel. More expensive, but more options for recourse if things go south.
If not for the cockroaches it would have been bearable, but the combination of issues left too many doubts as to the safety of the place. My wife and I could not find rest there.
Airbnbs can be nice and give you a real sense of being a resident of a place, but the quality control truly is a gamble. These days, I increasingly prefer the consistency of a hotel bed.
I will say this, the thermostat was better at the Airbnb than the hotel. No auto feature in the hotel.
> Airbnbs can be nice and give you a real sense of being a resident of a place
I really don't get this. If you're vacationing there's no way you'll feel anywhere near a "sense of being a resident". It's vacations, you're a tourist, there's nothing wrong with that. I don't get what about the "experience" of a regular Airbnb is better than staying at a decent hotel.
Of course this does not apply to exotic Airbnbs.
I really don't get this. If you're vacationing there's no way you'll feel anywhere near a "sense of being a resident". It's vacations, you're a tourist, there's nothing wrong with that. I don't get what about the "experience" of a regular Airbnb is better than staying at a decent hotel.
Of course this does not apply to exotic Airbnbs.
> I really don't get this.
The promise of AirBnB used to be you could get a spare room / apartment in a place where the locals actually lived, rather than the hotel & convention center district that's 2 blocks from the airport
The promise of AirBnB used to be you could get a spare room / apartment in a place where the locals actually lived, rather than the hotel & convention center district that's 2 blocks from the airport
> If you're vacationing there's no way you'll feel anywhere near a "sense of being a resident".
Some other residents will have broken plumbing, bad smells and cockroaches. You are living as they are?
Some other residents will have broken plumbing, bad smells and cockroaches. You are living as they are?
True, this very much may the common experience of the community I stayed in, but it was not advertised as such, nor was it priced that way either.
"Roach Infested Hellhole - $30/night"
Sold!
Sold!
> I named one of them Gregor.
Not everyday you come across random Kafka references!
Not everyday you come across random Kafka references!
How many stars had that apartment? How many stars you gave in your review?
What makes Airbnb not reliable is not cockroaches, but no negative reviews. I prefer Booking, because my reviews even negative are not removed like on Airbnb.
4.67. We haven’t submitted our review yet, suffice to say Airbnb responded that the offer unit did not meet their standards.
Airbnb hides the review score, only giving an average.
Airbnb hides the review score, only giving an average.
When I alerted AirBNB about a safety issue, they responded that they had completed their investigation (which apparently did not involve talking to me) and said the hosts were "elite" and basically took their side.
AirBNB is not safe.
https://www.businessinsider.com/airbnb-faces-thousands-sexua...
https://feeneylawfirm.com/airbnb-spends-millions-to-keep-sex...
AirBNB is not safe.
https://www.businessinsider.com/airbnb-faces-thousands-sexua...
https://feeneylawfirm.com/airbnb-spends-millions-to-keep-sex...
The last one I went to we walked in and contacted support as they didn’t have the accommodations they promised, and it took AirBnB support four days to get back to us. We waited several hours for a response before just booking a hotel.
I was shocked how bad their support was.
I was shocked how bad their support was.
Thanks for posting these.
Forced arbitration is an evil practice that must end. This is an example of why. There are behaviors companies allow and even encourage that affect their population of customers as a whole (e.g., with increased risk to personal safety), and not just specific victims.
Forced arbitration is an evil practice that must end. This is an example of why. There are behaviors companies allow and even encourage that affect their population of customers as a whole (e.g., with increased risk to personal safety), and not just specific victims.
Nothing written here makes me feel unsafe about taking my daughter and wife to an Air BNB. Just what on earth is this non-sequitur, "ergo company unsafe" [10 billion upvotes]. There is nothing here even explaining how this is any worse than hotels. Yes, sleeping in some random person's house is inherently less safe than hotels (slightly) but we already knew that. So then what actual tangible point am I missing here? What do you even expect the company to do about it? This entire post and its context just seems like a Simpsons episode where Homer yells at the mayor and demands that it stop raining. I haven't have and don't plan to ever use Air BNB, by the way.
I hope the OP is well and managed to find better accomodation. If it was me, I would bit the bullet and just write off the place and check into the nearest hotel as soon as possible.
But regarding fake hosts: I think this is standard practice on BnB. Nobody wants to expose their real names on Bnb and be subject to abuse by unhappy guests... unfortunately that's the reality of it. From the host's point of view, I can understand that... the host shouldn't matter anyway in most cases, right? Most people who own these places don't look cool and young as in the fake pics you'll see in most listings! But guess what: those cool pics do seem to make the place a bit more attractive to guests, so the incentive to use fake pics is strong (not sure if that's illegal though).
I stayed in a few wonderful places in California through BnB, but clearly, the listings were all under fake people (I think some even go to the effort to pay a real person to pretend they are the owner, as I googled one of them and she seemed like a real person... though I 100% doubt a young artist lady own a 3-storey townhouse in a good, quite central area of San Francisco).
My sister is about to list her apartment on Bnb and she's going to pay a company specialising in this to do all the cleaning, customer support etc... They take a 20% cut I believe... but it's probably worth it. Not sure she'll allow her real profile to be used for the listing, but I suspect that as long as it's not illegal, she should use some kind of AI-created profile or something.
But regarding fake hosts: I think this is standard practice on BnB. Nobody wants to expose their real names on Bnb and be subject to abuse by unhappy guests... unfortunately that's the reality of it. From the host's point of view, I can understand that... the host shouldn't matter anyway in most cases, right? Most people who own these places don't look cool and young as in the fake pics you'll see in most listings! But guess what: those cool pics do seem to make the place a bit more attractive to guests, so the incentive to use fake pics is strong (not sure if that's illegal though).
I stayed in a few wonderful places in California through BnB, but clearly, the listings were all under fake people (I think some even go to the effort to pay a real person to pretend they are the owner, as I googled one of them and she seemed like a real person... though I 100% doubt a young artist lady own a 3-storey townhouse in a good, quite central area of San Francisco).
My sister is about to list her apartment on Bnb and she's going to pay a company specialising in this to do all the cleaning, customer support etc... They take a 20% cut I believe... but it's probably worth it. Not sure she'll allow her real profile to be used for the listing, but I suspect that as long as it's not illegal, she should use some kind of AI-created profile or something.
Can we stop using the PR term "host"? That is only valid if it is a space you live in and are hosting someone, like a guest.
So I don't have statistics behind this next sentence, but my anecdotal data has shown that most Airbnb rentals are not where people live. They are specific spaces purchased and maintained for renting out short term via services like Airbnb. These are renters. They are renting the space. Language is important.
So I don't have statistics behind this next sentence, but my anecdotal data has shown that most Airbnb rentals are not where people live. They are specific spaces purchased and maintained for renting out short term via services like Airbnb. These are renters. They are renting the space. Language is important.
This has definitely changed over time, the first few airbnbs I stayed in had actual hosts who were friendly and helpful but it's been a while since I've found anything that isn't just an empty apartment or the equivalent of a self-service boarding house.
If you cannot trust your client (who pays you) to give you your real name, show a real profile picture, show a recent, accurate picture of the place (every room), or promise a discount based on irregularities then the customer gets screwed. They pay for a place, they depend on you once they arrived.
I had a similar (bad) adventure on Booking.com - dirt, crawlies, so I packed and went somewhere else. Booking.com didn't do anything about refunding "oh we contacted the host and he said nah" so I called the credit card company who refunded me the transaction. Lesson learned. From then on I check Booking.com for locations then compare the offers on hotel sites and lo, often they're cheaper when booked directly. And renting directly from people, that's left to you folks more adventurous than me.
This is the reason we stick to the same hotel chains we know that are good whenever we can; cannot really go wrong with higher tier french chains (not only in France; we used them in India, China, Thailand as well).
We often find that all in all the prices are not so different from airbnbs but with a lot more risk; so when you think about it, a E1200 airbnb for a month (which is hard to find in lisbon, by the way) vs a E1500 hotel, I would always pick the hotel; daily cleaning, breakfast included (usually so much I don't need anything further) and easy to cancel, extend or completely just get my money back or get relocated (especially when using the same chain like Accor).
I had awful experiences with booking.com and very good experiences with hotels.com. More than once, they rebooked us in far nicer and more expensive hotels after complaining. I found our favourite hotel that way; our booked hotel was overbooked and pretty crappy; the staff was nasty about it; one call and we got put up in a hotel 5x the price for the same number of days (2 weeks) instead swiftly and at their cost. More or less in the middle of a paradise.
We often find that all in all the prices are not so different from airbnbs but with a lot more risk; so when you think about it, a E1200 airbnb for a month (which is hard to find in lisbon, by the way) vs a E1500 hotel, I would always pick the hotel; daily cleaning, breakfast included (usually so much I don't need anything further) and easy to cancel, extend or completely just get my money back or get relocated (especially when using the same chain like Accor).
I had awful experiences with booking.com and very good experiences with hotels.com. More than once, they rebooked us in far nicer and more expensive hotels after complaining. I found our favourite hotel that way; our booked hotel was overbooked and pretty crappy; the staff was nasty about it; one call and we got put up in a hotel 5x the price for the same number of days (2 weeks) instead swiftly and at their cost. More or less in the middle of a paradise.
When I try to find a place to stay on Airbnb it looks like the prices are higher than what I can find on hotels.com or booking.com.
And the web site is useless. There is no option to sort by price, the filters for maximum price don't work.
It's going to have to be cheaper than a hotel or B&B to make it worth taking the risk and I'll have to be able to find it without scrolling all the way through the site.
So far I haven't found a compelling reason to try it regardless of the horror stories.
And the web site is useless. There is no option to sort by price, the filters for maximum price don't work.
It's going to have to be cheaper than a hotel or B&B to make it worth taking the risk and I'll have to be able to find it without scrolling all the way through the site.
So far I haven't found a compelling reason to try it regardless of the horror stories.
Booking.com replaced AirBnB for our travel needs in basically all cases. Only exception when booking.com doesn't show any available results, in which case AirBnB is a potential backup, not that this was actually necessary in the last 2 years or so before Covid, during covid and ever since.
The pictures changes as your family grows, needing two or three hotel rooms or only special family rooms makes Airbnb more affordable.
Unless something has changed in the last months I always found a direct hotel order cheaper and easier than booking/hotels dot com, not to mention fake rates, irrelevant reviews or non existing rooms.
Unless something has changed in the last months I always found a direct hotel order cheaper and easier than booking/hotels dot com, not to mention fake rates, irrelevant reviews or non existing rooms.
You can book apartments and homes on Booking
Booking.com is only slightly safer than AirBnB though.
The comment said that booking.com is cheaper, not safer.
Which it is, which is why on my trip to London in a month I rented over booking and not AirBnB.
Why would I choose a more expensive service with zero additional benefits? Because their app is more cool?
Which it is, which is why on my trip to London in a month I rented over booking and not AirBnB.
Why would I choose a more expensive service with zero additional benefits? Because their app is more cool?
Oh my, oh my, how the tune has changed on hn and social media on this and uber.
Whereever people sense they can make a buck or save a buck, laws amd regulations be damned.
I have never swayed an inch off my view.
I knew first hand how this affects housing prices and wear, I live in a severly affected area and pay the price for it, literally.
Same for uber. Neither is cheaper than the previous thing, hotel offers better bang fpr the buck, uber has surges and exploits the drivers and isnt even cheaper. Nope, I dont qanna hear about these drivers wouldnt have a job at all without uber. Lol.
Just because some tech bros with sexist issues can make an app and a service without customer service does not mean jack shit.
Airheadbnb is being declared cosa non grata in more and more places, uber is literally outlawed in half of europe.
Theres your business, kalashnick and the other pajasos.
If I had my own country or my way, I would send these clowns to prison no questions asked, to, you know, disrupt them a bit.
Do not come have a shit in my place.
I am all for the strictest and heavy handed regulation on these matters.
Hotels expensive? Well, then stay at home or go to a motel or some cheaper destination. If its too expensive, your kin has no business being there, mate.
Taxi too expensive? Get a car, use public transport. Walk. Screw uber and the consumers of it.
I have sympathy for the drivers waiting in the dark on italian airports, but not uber, its a zero sum game to increase prices later on or to have a self driving fleet which then somehow makes this non viable business model good? Hell no, this is a deliberate scheme to burn through investor money.
Airbnb and Uber are the scum of the earth, its a shame the population let them get away with this stuff for a while. People are inherently and helplessly stupid on some things. In hindsight, its always easy to play the innocent one with a halo hovering over the head.
I wonder where the fierce hn defenders of these models are today.
Whereever people sense they can make a buck or save a buck, laws amd regulations be damned.
I have never swayed an inch off my view.
I knew first hand how this affects housing prices and wear, I live in a severly affected area and pay the price for it, literally.
Same for uber. Neither is cheaper than the previous thing, hotel offers better bang fpr the buck, uber has surges and exploits the drivers and isnt even cheaper. Nope, I dont qanna hear about these drivers wouldnt have a job at all without uber. Lol.
Just because some tech bros with sexist issues can make an app and a service without customer service does not mean jack shit.
Airheadbnb is being declared cosa non grata in more and more places, uber is literally outlawed in half of europe.
Theres your business, kalashnick and the other pajasos.
If I had my own country or my way, I would send these clowns to prison no questions asked, to, you know, disrupt them a bit.
Do not come have a shit in my place.
I am all for the strictest and heavy handed regulation on these matters.
Hotels expensive? Well, then stay at home or go to a motel or some cheaper destination. If its too expensive, your kin has no business being there, mate.
Taxi too expensive? Get a car, use public transport. Walk. Screw uber and the consumers of it.
I have sympathy for the drivers waiting in the dark on italian airports, but not uber, its a zero sum game to increase prices later on or to have a self driving fleet which then somehow makes this non viable business model good? Hell no, this is a deliberate scheme to burn through investor money.
Airbnb and Uber are the scum of the earth, its a shame the population let them get away with this stuff for a while. People are inherently and helplessly stupid on some things. In hindsight, its always easy to play the innocent one with a halo hovering over the head.
I wonder where the fierce hn defenders of these models are today.
> Whereever people sense they can make a buck or save a buck, laws amd regulations be damned.
A lot of us would like lower prices as long as nobody is negatively affected. Laws and regulations aren't automatically just by design because they're laws, sometimes they're outdated or the result of lobbying/regulatory capture. There's a lot wrong with Uber such as how they treat their drivers/customers, etc, but I doubt many of us would shed any tears to the taxi medallion cartel they disrupted.
However, in this case, it's clear that laws have been broken, but not even the typical laws you'd associated with Airbnb (those around short-term rentals), the law that has been broken is the one that outlaws fraud or misrepresentation of goods/services. The problem isn't even that Airbnb has "disrupted" the market by breaking the law around short-term rentals, it's just that Airbnb is now using its size to break basic laws around online commerce with total impunity by charging for goods/services that aren't rendered and fraudulently pitching an insurance policy/guarantee that doesn't actually exist.
A lot of us would like lower prices as long as nobody is negatively affected. Laws and regulations aren't automatically just by design because they're laws, sometimes they're outdated or the result of lobbying/regulatory capture. There's a lot wrong with Uber such as how they treat their drivers/customers, etc, but I doubt many of us would shed any tears to the taxi medallion cartel they disrupted.
However, in this case, it's clear that laws have been broken, but not even the typical laws you'd associated with Airbnb (those around short-term rentals), the law that has been broken is the one that outlaws fraud or misrepresentation of goods/services. The problem isn't even that Airbnb has "disrupted" the market by breaking the law around short-term rentals, it's just that Airbnb is now using its size to break basic laws around online commerce with total impunity by charging for goods/services that aren't rendered and fraudulently pitching an insurance policy/guarantee that doesn't actually exist.
I agree there are laws that need reviews, ammendments and I would even go as far and say it is not my laws, we are all born into the system and have to suck them up.
However, here nothing has been disrupted, rhe meddalions are stronger than ever in Europe. So all the little savings here by using uber will cost more in the long term now that the taxi cartell has been reinforced. Same for hotels.
At least taxi drivers know safety protocols, same for hotels.
So the fallout goes beyond of what people think.
If this stuff comes at the cost of pretend customer service or exploitation of work forces or customers, the regulatory hammer should be, swift and heavy hitting.
We are far from this as a society, the exploiters can use their ill gotten funds to pay for legal defense. The bit of damage done to society and people finds no representation. Try ripping of a bank or take from the rich and your life will be disrupted before you can do a ten count.
However, here nothing has been disrupted, rhe meddalions are stronger than ever in Europe. So all the little savings here by using uber will cost more in the long term now that the taxi cartell has been reinforced. Same for hotels.
At least taxi drivers know safety protocols, same for hotels.
So the fallout goes beyond of what people think.
If this stuff comes at the cost of pretend customer service or exploitation of work forces or customers, the regulatory hammer should be, swift and heavy hitting.
We are far from this as a society, the exploiters can use their ill gotten funds to pay for legal defense. The bit of damage done to society and people finds no representation. Try ripping of a bank or take from the rich and your life will be disrupted before you can do a ten count.
> Just because some tech bros with sexist issues can make an app and a service without customer service does not mean jack shit.
this is an ad hominem attack and not helpful -- Kalanick's personal problems are separate from Uber's product and services
this is an ad hominem attack and not helpful -- Kalanick's personal problems are separate from Uber's product and services
It was not just him, it was on a wide scale, he was dismissed because it all hapoenednon his watch, unless I am grossly mistaken.Guy is not fit to run a business, if he is not in jail for breaching laws with his products, then somebody should be sent to the slammer for sexaul assault, wouldnt you agree this is crossing the last and final taboos in society and law?
Sexual misconduct is punishable by prison in the us. I opine that this is morally worse than running a brothel, the women do not sign up for the sex part and the salary is worse than a strippers.
If these men are desperate for sex, they should be looking for it elsewhere.
Top management of banks and such at least have the courtesy to simply pay for an escort not associated in any way with the business. Most of them even simply live a solid family life. You will be hard pressed to find such misconduct in the classic instututions.
Top management of banks and such at least have the courtesy to simply pay for an escort not associated in any way with the business. Most of them even simply live a solid family life. You will be hard pressed to find such misconduct in the classic instututions.
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In my own regional experience (southwest brazil) both uber and airbnb's are cheaper than taxis/hotels.
As they say "price is king".
Sure thing, used to be like that in Europe, too, give it some time, they will come around.
Price is king is a relative palavra, if it were unconditionally true, then squatting and car theft would be the ultimate solutions.
I know, these are not very legal, but the same can be said for uber and airbnb, they carefully select to be just as illegal as they can before having to deal with some serious consequences.
They are not pure anarchist disruptors, they are calculating cowards and they calculated to waste investors money from the get go.
If history shows anything, the first and dominating self driving taxi fleet will not be teslas or ubers.
They have announced their visions harder than they are working on a solution, esp ueber.
Price is king is a relative palavra, if it were unconditionally true, then squatting and car theft would be the ultimate solutions.
I know, these are not very legal, but the same can be said for uber and airbnb, they carefully select to be just as illegal as they can before having to deal with some serious consequences.
They are not pure anarchist disruptors, they are calculating cowards and they calculated to waste investors money from the get go.
If history shows anything, the first and dominating self driving taxi fleet will not be teslas or ubers.
They have announced their visions harder than they are working on a solution, esp ueber.
>>"uber is literally outlawed in half of europe."
Uber is banned or partially banned in UK, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Germany, Hungary, and Italy. Eight countries out of forty-four of the European countries.
Perhaps I should have said EU. Or market.
Either way, outside of madrid, you will have a hard time to find an uber in Spain, which is a complicated country.
Let us do the math. EU has 450 million people, Europe has 740, give or take.
Deduct the Russian market from that, they are out over there.
It was banned then unbanned in places, fe Turkey.
In switzerland, the owe 150million in taxes, not clean solution, is it. In other words, it is worth it to them to operate there having to pay that restrospectivelly, I dare you, try to steal 150m from the Swiss and see how that goes.
Your list leaves plenty to be desired, it does not contain Greece and the Netherlands and Finland, and Belgium.
So 740 m minus
RU has 140m population, of which 100 to 110 m live in the european part.
660m left
Minus Germany and Uk, this leaves us with
510 million, by now, we have excluded almost the entire us population and the countries with most purchasing power for sure.
France, italy and lets say half spain is Nother 130m, leaving us with 380m.
This is half of whole Europe and half of the european union and we are not through yet.
Next most populated country would be ukraine, I would say legal or not, their serives are currently disrupted there by ongoing events.
In other words, europes best economies do not wanna hear about uber and there was no popular uprising about it.
They should take the hint and stay away.
Theybare venditor non grata, that is a horrible business result after a decade of operations.
Either way, outside of madrid, you will have a hard time to find an uber in Spain, which is a complicated country.
Let us do the math. EU has 450 million people, Europe has 740, give or take.
Deduct the Russian market from that, they are out over there.
It was banned then unbanned in places, fe Turkey.
In switzerland, the owe 150million in taxes, not clean solution, is it. In other words, it is worth it to them to operate there having to pay that restrospectivelly, I dare you, try to steal 150m from the Swiss and see how that goes.
Your list leaves plenty to be desired, it does not contain Greece and the Netherlands and Finland, and Belgium.
So 740 m minus
RU has 140m population, of which 100 to 110 m live in the european part.
660m left
Minus Germany and Uk, this leaves us with
510 million, by now, we have excluded almost the entire us population and the countries with most purchasing power for sure.
France, italy and lets say half spain is Nother 130m, leaving us with 380m.
This is half of whole Europe and half of the european union and we are not through yet.
Next most populated country would be ukraine, I would say legal or not, their serives are currently disrupted there by ongoing events.
In other words, europes best economies do not wanna hear about uber and there was no popular uprising about it.
They should take the hint and stay away.
Theybare venditor non grata, that is a horrible business result after a decade of operations.
Yes, but.
As far as I understand, in the US Uber is a dude with a car and a drivers license, who installs an app on their phone and starts driving people around. In European countries I know Uber is just another way to call a taxi.
Big difference. I'd say it's not too wrong to say that the "dude with a car who installed an app" model is mostly outlawed.
As far as I understand, in the US Uber is a dude with a car and a drivers license, who installs an app on their phone and starts driving people around. In European countries I know Uber is just another way to call a taxi.
Big difference. I'd say it's not too wrong to say that the "dude with a car who installed an app" model is mostly outlawed.
Indeed, in their defense, thet have bowed down to some regulators and are run like a business now in places. After being strong armed and forgetting to pay taxes, but props for that, fair enough and honorable. Just that its subsidised by pirating maneuvers in other places.
Sometimes, Americans and american businesses do not understand the social leaning eu countries, the people have worked hard for generations to keep people like uber(yes , people, we know behind companies are people) at bay and they know why. People want to be able to live off of one full time jons salary, no matter the sacrifice. They also want to their neigbors to have the same privilege, they dont want their neighbors to rob them. And if it does not work, then the social system shall serve as a fallback.
Nothing to do with lack of work morals, it is a different mind set.
Sometimes, Americans and american businesses do not understand the social leaning eu countries, the people have worked hard for generations to keep people like uber(yes , people, we know behind companies are people) at bay and they know why. People want to be able to live off of one full time jons salary, no matter the sacrifice. They also want to their neigbors to have the same privilege, they dont want their neighbors to rob them. And if it does not work, then the social system shall serve as a fallback.
Nothing to do with lack of work morals, it is a different mind set.
>Whereever people sense they can make a buck or save a buck, laws amd regulations be damned.
When has this not been the case at any point in human history under any government? There is nothing new here. Greed is a component of human nature, and capitalism (and other systems) can certainly bring it out.
When has this not been the case at any point in human history under any government? There is nothing new here. Greed is a component of human nature, and capitalism (and other systems) can certainly bring it out.
There is truth to that, but these kind of companies have crossed all lines. Takes a lot before truly greedy politicians intervene, it is against their nature.
I fully agree with your historical point, I read about thensoutj sea company in the uk and the stake holders, i was shocked, but nor surprised. The wikipedia page actually makes for good reading if you have time.
I fully agree with your historical point, I read about thensoutj sea company in the uk and the stake holders, i was shocked, but nor surprised. The wikipedia page actually makes for good reading if you have time.
People get the government they deserve; if they do not participate in the process. You can organize people around a common mission, but its hard to convince people of future harm, when they haven't yet been burned. The "help" is merely theoretical. Now that these companies are actually harming people - it will be easier, but the damage has already been done.
I'm not a huge fan of airbnb but I don't know of a great alternative for their services. When my family and I travel we want something that is a home, designed for kids, with spaces to cook, hang out, and near or in town (but not surrounded by loud drunks) so we can do things without driving. Ideally in a situation where a screaming baby isn't going to annoy too many other people. Hotels are miserable at this, and when I try to find places like this on a site like booking.com I find... the same places I find on airbnb. Perhaps part of the problem is cities forcing hotels to be in locations that suit them, and not the people travelling.
I've stayed in many absolutely wonderful homes on airbnb and as a travelling family it's vastly superior to staying in a hotel. We're staying in one in Utrecht for New Years'; I can't wait.
The author's points are valid (if you have little kids, there's a great Shaun The Sheep episode about a converted sheep barn that comes to mind reading this article) but I can't think of anything remotely as good as airbnb for travelling families, except for airbnb clones like vrbo.
_mostly_ miserable. There are some exceptions. They're usually very expensive.
I've stayed in many absolutely wonderful homes on airbnb and as a travelling family it's vastly superior to staying in a hotel. We're staying in one in Utrecht for New Years'; I can't wait.
The author's points are valid (if you have little kids, there's a great Shaun The Sheep episode about a converted sheep barn that comes to mind reading this article) but I can't think of anything remotely as good as airbnb for travelling families, except for airbnb clones like vrbo.
_mostly_ miserable. There are some exceptions. They're usually very expensive.
At the pricier end of the market, there are sites like Oliver's Travels. Fewer properties, higher prices, but better customer support.
I've used AirBnb 3 times in 2017 in Japan with mixed success.
I will never ever use it again. Apart from being a terrible company that doesn't give a shit for the cities and communities they're destroying there's just a host of practical reasons to never ever use them.
It starts with the key exchange. In a hotel you just get the key(card) handed, go to your room and be done. You'll never have to go through shenanigans like those described in the article.
Much worse is tip toeing around neighbors who, rightfully, hate your guts. Or even worse, tip toeing around other guests, which were not part of the description.
Don't get me started on hidden cameras, which may or may not be advertised. If I pay big bucks for a room I will absolutely not run a "The Conversation" type sweep of my private quarters.
There's huge scam and safety issue with all things AirBnb. No thanks!
If anything goes wrong in a hotel there's somebody who can deal with it. I had some bozos having a party in the room above me in a hotel in Prague. A call to the reception resolved the issue in 5 minutes.
It's not the quaint experience of a host providing personal guidance to a city. Often you wind up in a bland, badly designed cookie cutter apartment managed by a faceless company.
Hotels set minimum standards. Essentially I get what I pay for. I can splurge and stay at the Hyatt or a LeMeridien, or I can travel more on the cheap and get a good bed and a reasonable bathroom at an Ibis.
Think you got a bargain with AirBnb? That may have been the case 8 years ago. Nowadays I can only suggest: Best of luck with that one.
Support if something fucks up? Well, you just read the article I suppose.
AirBnb wound up on my eternal shit list. I wouldn't touch them or any of their properties with a haz mat suit.
I will never ever use it again. Apart from being a terrible company that doesn't give a shit for the cities and communities they're destroying there's just a host of practical reasons to never ever use them.
It starts with the key exchange. In a hotel you just get the key(card) handed, go to your room and be done. You'll never have to go through shenanigans like those described in the article.
Much worse is tip toeing around neighbors who, rightfully, hate your guts. Or even worse, tip toeing around other guests, which were not part of the description.
Don't get me started on hidden cameras, which may or may not be advertised. If I pay big bucks for a room I will absolutely not run a "The Conversation" type sweep of my private quarters.
There's huge scam and safety issue with all things AirBnb. No thanks!
If anything goes wrong in a hotel there's somebody who can deal with it. I had some bozos having a party in the room above me in a hotel in Prague. A call to the reception resolved the issue in 5 minutes.
It's not the quaint experience of a host providing personal guidance to a city. Often you wind up in a bland, badly designed cookie cutter apartment managed by a faceless company.
Hotels set minimum standards. Essentially I get what I pay for. I can splurge and stay at the Hyatt or a LeMeridien, or I can travel more on the cheap and get a good bed and a reasonable bathroom at an Ibis.
Think you got a bargain with AirBnb? That may have been the case 8 years ago. Nowadays I can only suggest: Best of luck with that one.
Support if something fucks up? Well, you just read the article I suppose.
AirBnb wound up on my eternal shit list. I wouldn't touch them or any of their properties with a haz mat suit.
This is the problem with the business model of these gig-economy or P2P marketplace concepts with “independent contractors” providing service. They get initial traction with a high focus on consistency and quality, but the model doesn’t scale and eventually the customer experience starts to degrade. I stopped using Uber for similar reasons. It was great for a while, but now it’s total random people turning up in beat up cars with rampant last minute cancelations and other problems. I’ve gone back to plain old taxis in most cases which are better now.
Will be interesting to see how this all plays out long term and if these companies can control quality at scale or if this whole mode of trying to play middle-person just fizzles out over time and we return to more traditional approaches that weren’t necessarily terribly broken in the first place.
Will be interesting to see how this all plays out long term and if these companies can control quality at scale or if this whole mode of trying to play middle-person just fizzles out over time and we return to more traditional approaches that weren’t necessarily terribly broken in the first place.
Play with snakes, get bitten.
AirBnb started out as a company that basically fostered and encouraged illegal, unregulated short term rentals. Many of the hosts were breaking various ordnances and bylaws to rent you their home.
There is also a huge societal cost in terms of increases rents and reduced permanent housing supply because of AirBnb.
So if those type of people at that company screw you over, don’t be surprised.
AirBnb started out as a company that basically fostered and encouraged illegal, unregulated short term rentals. Many of the hosts were breaking various ordnances and bylaws to rent you their home.
There is also a huge societal cost in terms of increases rents and reduced permanent housing supply because of AirBnb.
So if those type of people at that company screw you over, don’t be surprised.
I think that's part of the point of this article: a warning to others who haven't heard yet that AirBnB = scum.
Started out? I believe they still are in a lot of places.
Funny, I saw the writer's picture first thing and thought hmm that looks pretty fake then later it turns out it is cropped from that same stock photo as "Peter"
The account was clearly created just to share this issue, so using the other face from the picture is meant to help emphasize the false pick in the AirBnB posting.
Yep I think we all got that
I see more and more "middleman" apps such as airbnb or food delivery apps piling up more and more fees as they probably feel the pressure from an environment with increasing interest rates - without improving the service more than before.
Back when these apps were released they were disruptive and competitive, but I wonder that in front of the increasing fees for a decreasing added value, the pendulum will swing back and customers will revert back to direct contact with the service providers instead of using middlemen apps. The old way.
Back when these apps were released they were disruptive and competitive, but I wonder that in front of the increasing fees for a decreasing added value, the pendulum will swing back and customers will revert back to direct contact with the service providers instead of using middlemen apps. The old way.
> I see more and more "middleman" apps such as airbnb or food delivery apps piling up more and more fees
They're running out of magic investor money and the reality is starting to hit them
> Back when these apps were released they were disruptive and competitive,
Of course, they were totally unregulated, regulation caught up in most countries (airbnb taxes/time limits, better status for uber drivers, &c.). They were only profitable because they were abusing the people working for them
They're running out of magic investor money and the reality is starting to hit them
> Back when these apps were released they were disruptive and competitive,
Of course, they were totally unregulated, regulation caught up in most countries (airbnb taxes/time limits, better status for uber drivers, &c.). They were only profitable because they were abusing the people working for them
Personally, the pendulum already swang on food apps. I found it way too expensive and promoted too much personal laziness.
I dont mind paying for a real service, but these apps have also encouraged tipping culture, which was already going crazy. Now everyone wants a tip.
Just charge me the real cost, pay them a real wage, and if no wants to pay for it, then society doesn't want it.
I dont mind paying for a real service, but these apps have also encouraged tipping culture, which was already going crazy. Now everyone wants a tip.
Just charge me the real cost, pay them a real wage, and if no wants to pay for it, then society doesn't want it.
In some cases they even stole tips. Given that the precedent of no significant legal consequences for such theft has already been set, I no longer trust the tipping feature even if I otherwise would've been fine with tipping.
Yeah, it's infuriating
Until I gave up on rideshare apps, I was carrying around a pile of cash and pre-tipping drivers 20% in cash up front in order to get decent service.
Fortunately I discovered a decent local airport ride business that offers car seats and no attitude. It's barely more expensive than Lyft and works really well.
Until I gave up on rideshare apps, I was carrying around a pile of cash and pre-tipping drivers 20% in cash up front in order to get decent service.
Fortunately I discovered a decent local airport ride business that offers car seats and no attitude. It's barely more expensive than Lyft and works really well.
They were running on VC cash until they could go public, now that they actually have to be a solvent company, the reality of the economics come to bare.
In case like this, you must also report the case to the city housing department. European capitals are trying to regulate airbnbs, with mentions of fake ID and electrical hazards, I'm pretty sure Lisbon city will react more quickly than Airbnb
Airbnb is largely incentivized not to report at all, at least in the short term (Q3 earnings call coming up, we need everyone in the support staff to "improve" their numbers).
Airbnb is clearly in the money-extraction phase of the VC-funded b2c cycle, it's not like we haven't seen this before. This turd is usually served with a side of "acquiring every potential competitor", so that the con can go on for as long as possible.
I've been decreasingly satisfied with airbnb (no horror stories). I think I've done roughly a 50-50 split between them and hotels, depending on the area. It's not exactly hard to switch back to hotels either, airbnb which now has premium prices really only makes sense if the service is premium too. Peace of mind is a huge factor for vacations.
Airbnb is clearly in the money-extraction phase of the VC-funded b2c cycle, it's not like we haven't seen this before. This turd is usually served with a side of "acquiring every potential competitor", so that the con can go on for as long as possible.
I've been decreasingly satisfied with airbnb (no horror stories). I think I've done roughly a 50-50 split between them and hotels, depending on the area. It's not exactly hard to switch back to hotels either, airbnb which now has premium prices really only makes sense if the service is premium too. Peace of mind is a huge factor for vacations.
My wife and I decided to do the whole digital nomad thing earlier this year, flying around the US. At first we thought about doing AirBnbs because that’s what people do.
We booked our first AirBnB and stayed for three weeks. While it was everything the host promised, we weren’t misled at all and it was nice enough. We realized we would like hotels better…
- consistency: we could just go on the Hilton or Hyatt app and we wouldn’t have to worry about what we were going to get. We knew what to expect from a Homewood Suites, Embassy Suites, Home2Suites or Hyatt Place. Even if the hotel ended up having issues, we knew there were easy remedies - everything from getting another room or changing hotels easier.
Besides, we are changing cities on Sundays and I need to be set up to work by Monday morning and don’t need any complications.
And no secret codes. We get to the hotel. We do a digital check in from the app and our phones open the door. We check out digitally and just leave.
- gym access: we have two rooms in our house dedicated to exercise. We have a studio for floor exercises and another room with cardio equipment. We wanted to be able to go downstairs to a gym.
- no hidden fees: we know exactly what we are going to be paying up front.
- no expectation to have the place spotless when we leave. Staying in a hotel is purely transactional. No reviewing the host. No worrying about reputation.
- loyalty points: between the loyalty points that come from the hotel and the cobranded credit cards, you can easily get 15%-25% back in points you can redeem for future stays.
- housekeeping - enough said.
We booked our first AirBnB and stayed for three weeks. While it was everything the host promised, we weren’t misled at all and it was nice enough. We realized we would like hotels better…
- consistency: we could just go on the Hilton or Hyatt app and we wouldn’t have to worry about what we were going to get. We knew what to expect from a Homewood Suites, Embassy Suites, Home2Suites or Hyatt Place. Even if the hotel ended up having issues, we knew there were easy remedies - everything from getting another room or changing hotels easier.
Besides, we are changing cities on Sundays and I need to be set up to work by Monday morning and don’t need any complications.
And no secret codes. We get to the hotel. We do a digital check in from the app and our phones open the door. We check out digitally and just leave.
- gym access: we have two rooms in our house dedicated to exercise. We have a studio for floor exercises and another room with cardio equipment. We wanted to be able to go downstairs to a gym.
- no hidden fees: we know exactly what we are going to be paying up front.
- no expectation to have the place spotless when we leave. Staying in a hotel is purely transactional. No reviewing the host. No worrying about reputation.
- loyalty points: between the loyalty points that come from the hotel and the cobranded credit cards, you can easily get 15%-25% back in points you can redeem for future stays.
- housekeeping - enough said.
I swear, we’ve gone over the hill with these dotcom companies.
I stopped using Amazon and went back to shopping at my grocery store, Costco, IKEA, etc. You get to actually see what you’ll be getting, bring it back the same day, and know it’s not some fake that you need to ship back the next day. Hell, even the dollar store sells me better junk than Amazon does, and cheaper too.
I stopped using Uber and went back to taxis. Three times now I’ve arrived at my home airport to Uber surging their prices to $100+ for a simple airport pickup. The last Uber I took in Vegas decided it was ok to run red lights and Uber wouldn’t do a thing about it. No thanks, I’ll take the fixed-rate taxi service, or even just rent a car.
I stopped using AirBnB and now book hotels. Prices are comparable, and the quality is far more predictable. It’s getting harder and harder to find good listings, and when my family shows up and the place “isn’t as described” it’s a real downer.
A recession of sorts might be the perfect thing to force these companies to start focusing on their product again, instead of this growth-at-all-costs mentality.
I stopped using Amazon and went back to shopping at my grocery store, Costco, IKEA, etc. You get to actually see what you’ll be getting, bring it back the same day, and know it’s not some fake that you need to ship back the next day. Hell, even the dollar store sells me better junk than Amazon does, and cheaper too.
I stopped using Uber and went back to taxis. Three times now I’ve arrived at my home airport to Uber surging their prices to $100+ for a simple airport pickup. The last Uber I took in Vegas decided it was ok to run red lights and Uber wouldn’t do a thing about it. No thanks, I’ll take the fixed-rate taxi service, or even just rent a car.
I stopped using AirBnB and now book hotels. Prices are comparable, and the quality is far more predictable. It’s getting harder and harder to find good listings, and when my family shows up and the place “isn’t as described” it’s a real downer.
A recession of sorts might be the perfect thing to force these companies to start focusing on their product again, instead of this growth-at-all-costs mentality.
> I stopped using Uber and went back to taxis.
I've never used Uber. But the various local taxi companies seem to have recently formed a cartel; they won't take bookings before 9AM, muttering about "the school run". This is new, I booked a taxi at 7:30AM two months ago, to go to the hospital, and that worked fine. Last week I was forced to either book before 7 (and spend an hour in a waiting room), or cough-up £18 for a ten-minute trip.
For clarity concerning this school-run nonsense, school starts at 9AM here, and few kids go to breakfast clubs.
I've never used Uber. But the various local taxi companies seem to have recently formed a cartel; they won't take bookings before 9AM, muttering about "the school run". This is new, I booked a taxi at 7:30AM two months ago, to go to the hospital, and that worked fine. Last week I was forced to either book before 7 (and spend an hour in a waiting room), or cough-up £18 for a ten-minute trip.
For clarity concerning this school-run nonsense, school starts at 9AM here, and few kids go to breakfast clubs.
a real wake-up moment for me was when I price checked something at CVS and it was more expensive on Amazon
Researching the host isn't part of people's normal Airbnb booking process? Eek.
I always click into the host details, check for additional listings, check their history, and usually try to street-view the property as well (harder to do for apartments, but usually possible for full homes).
It's annoying that I have to do it. No question Airbnb should do a better job ensuring their listings are legitimate. But, when I travel, I almost always need a kitchen and someplace that's dog-friendly, which rules out most hotels.
Maybe I've just been lucky, but across most of the eastern US, Scotland, Italy, and Iceland, I've had good experiences. I generally pick a mid-priced listing, not the cheapest, and definitely not the most expensive.
I always click into the host details, check for additional listings, check their history, and usually try to street-view the property as well (harder to do for apartments, but usually possible for full homes).
It's annoying that I have to do it. No question Airbnb should do a better job ensuring their listings are legitimate. But, when I travel, I almost always need a kitchen and someplace that's dog-friendly, which rules out most hotels.
Maybe I've just been lucky, but across most of the eastern US, Scotland, Italy, and Iceland, I've had good experiences. I generally pick a mid-priced listing, not the cheapest, and definitely not the most expensive.
I have had and have many friends who have had similar horror stories from holiday apartments and even B&Bs and hotels, as well as Airbnbs rentals.
There’s a pretty simple correlation most of the time: the cheaper the accommodation compared to the local market, the higher the chance of disappointment.
On the other hand, when I take Airbnbs that are only a small discount compared to a reasonable but completely average hotel room from a reputable chain, they are often fantastic.
Bad and scammy holiday and short term accommodation is surely a problem, but Airbnb and their rating system doesn’t look any worse than many other alternatives from my experience.
Many of the comments here show more about the author’s attitude toward a once popular start-up than much else.
There’s a pretty simple correlation most of the time: the cheaper the accommodation compared to the local market, the higher the chance of disappointment.
On the other hand, when I take Airbnbs that are only a small discount compared to a reasonable but completely average hotel room from a reputable chain, they are often fantastic.
Bad and scammy holiday and short term accommodation is surely a problem, but Airbnb and their rating system doesn’t look any worse than many other alternatives from my experience.
Many of the comments here show more about the author’s attitude toward a once popular start-up than much else.
After living next to an AirBNB for 3 years in a quiet neighborhood, good riddance.
If you haven't had the pleasure, having an AirBNB next door is like having your house moved to a cheap hotel parking lot. Random yelling and screaming at odd hours, parties every holiday (even the minor ones), lots of middle of the night loud drunken discussions. Random people all the time, is that guy trying to break into my house or is he trying to get into the AirBNB back yard. Questions, where's a good place to eat, where is the water hose, how do you like living here, do you know of a late night pharmacy nearby?
If you haven't had the pleasure, having an AirBNB next door is like having your house moved to a cheap hotel parking lot. Random yelling and screaming at odd hours, parties every holiday (even the minor ones), lots of middle of the night loud drunken discussions. Random people all the time, is that guy trying to break into my house or is he trying to get into the AirBNB back yard. Questions, where's a good place to eat, where is the water hose, how do you like living here, do you know of a late night pharmacy nearby?
Credit card chargebacks (or lawsuits if you have the money & resources) are the way to go - that's the only thing Silicon Valley scum understands.
I don't think the interesting part of this article is that there are bad AirBnB hosts. I'm sure there are. I don't think they are the majority, and I'm basing that on my overwhelmingly positive experiences as a guest. So, that part of the article doesn't ring true to me.
The interesting part is how much of a hellish experience AirBnB support was. If you're staying in an AirBnB, you likely do not have the time to spend waiting for support to get back to you. Their customer service should help the customer immediately, and sort out the details later.
The interesting part is how much of a hellish experience AirBnB support was. If you're staying in an AirBnB, you likely do not have the time to spend waiting for support to get back to you. Their customer service should help the customer immediately, and sort out the details later.
This. A bad AirBNB can affect a customers health and safety. How can they justify taking days to come to a resolution?
In this case I also wonder why the author didn’t take faster action themselves. Immediately move out into a new hotel or rental and sort out a refund later.
Probably the root cause to both inaction is money.
Airbnb doesn’t want to pay for a prompt help desk and for a customer friendly refund Policy.
The customer doesn’t want to or can’t pay for a market rate hotel.
This makes me far less likely to trust airbnb for long term rentals myself, knowing you can’t trust that listings are authentic and that you can’t count on airbnb to help if you get duped.
In this case I also wonder why the author didn’t take faster action themselves. Immediately move out into a new hotel or rental and sort out a refund later.
Probably the root cause to both inaction is money.
Airbnb doesn’t want to pay for a prompt help desk and for a customer friendly refund Policy.
The customer doesn’t want to or can’t pay for a market rate hotel.
This makes me far less likely to trust airbnb for long term rentals myself, knowing you can’t trust that listings are authentic and that you can’t count on airbnb to help if you get duped.
Keep in mind that hindsight is 20/20. The author may have been able to pay for an airbnb or a hotel but not both at the same time, which is what they would’ve had to do in this situation.
All true, but at the same time, the user didn't do herself any favors by waiting until weeks(?) into a long-term (by Airbnb standards) rental.
They decided to ban me over a small misdemeanor weed charge from my younger days (6+ years ago).
For reference I have great reviews both staying and hosting in the US.
This was after an my first international booking when they ask for passport pic.
They let me know after I was in my room and told me I had to GTFO and where absolutely no help at all.
Been using booking.com, locations can be hit more miss still. The nice apartment I’m at now in Mexico City shower hardly works for instance.
Also it’s pretty much a meme now that hotels are about the same cost after fees and usually much better service.
For reference I have great reviews both staying and hosting in the US.
This was after an my first international booking when they ask for passport pic.
They let me know after I was in my room and told me I had to GTFO and where absolutely no help at all.
Been using booking.com, locations can be hit more miss still. The nice apartment I’m at now in Mexico City shower hardly works for instance.
Also it’s pretty much a meme now that hotels are about the same cost after fees and usually much better service.
The real crime of Airbnb is the added pressure on residential housing stock in globally desirable cities. This story is pretty awful, mind.
Yep. This is a huge issue often overlooked by the AirBnB apologists. Long term lets in Dublin, experiencing a huge housing crisis, doubled during the pandemic as a lot of AirBnB hosts fled back to the long-term market. Sadly I believe they're likely all back to AirBnB now.
If you still want/need to use AirBnB for cheaper travel, renting a room instead of a whole apartment is actually better. Then the host is an actual host and the reviews are more meaningful. I’ve gotten to know some pretty cool people that way. It’s a trade-off of course, as the set of potential issues is different.
But won't you get a room in an apartment shared with other guests then?
Where do you think the savings come from?
If you aren't willing to accept some kind of reduction from hotel accommodations, you aren't willing to save money.
If you aren't willing to accept some kind of reduction from hotel accommodations, you aren't willing to save money.
It's one thing renting a room in the host's own living apartment (like the old couchsurfing) and another renting a room in a shared rented-out apartment. The latter one might be plagued way more by the mentioned fake reviews.
This - I wish they had categories for "host lives here too" and "this is a boarding house." You can usually figure it out by scrutinizing the reviews, but I'd like to see it overtly stated.
Ahhh, I see your point. I misunderstood you.
Thanks for explaining!
Thanks for explaining!
I’ve never had this happen, it was always at host’s place. Granted, that was some years ago, maybe things have changed!
When going somewhere for a long stay, always rent a hotel room for 3 days, and use that time to rent a long term accomodation that you can see with your own eyes.
Yeah I have come to realize that you are on your own and be ready for any emergency. Airbnb will not help in a timely manner. Worse, they will make you re-explain the situation while you are in stress of urgency.
Same goes for booking.com these days- no support response until after the problem.
Same goes for booking.com these days- no support response until after the problem.
Why would booking.com be any different? It's the same business model with the same economics and incentives.
because it used to have excellent support similar to amazon’s - call or message them and they will contact the hotel themselves and resolve issues. they even managed to waive cancellation fees for our family when we screwed it up ourselves and had non-cancellable reservation. so it wasnt a comparison of airbnb and booking, but current booking.com and the way it used to be
The OP seems to have spend like $3000 for a month. What's very puzzling to me is why not go to a decent hotel? I'm positive that you can easily find 3 and even 4 star hotels for less than $100 per night in Portugal.
This question is not specifically about the OP but in general about people that pay so much money for an Airbnb when they can have a room in a nice hotel for the same (or even less) money. I'm not talking about special occations (i.e people that want to organize party and stuff), I'm talking about traditional tourists. Why would anybody choose an AirBnb vs a hotel?
Maybe I'm not in the right mindset (or age?) but I've never even considered an Airbnb when going on vacation anywhere.
This question is not specifically about the OP but in general about people that pay so much money for an Airbnb when they can have a room in a nice hotel for the same (or even less) money. I'm not talking about special occations (i.e people that want to organize party and stuff), I'm talking about traditional tourists. Why would anybody choose an AirBnb vs a hotel?
Maybe I'm not in the right mindset (or age?) but I've never even considered an Airbnb when going on vacation anywhere.
When staying at a place for longer than a few nights, hotel rooms are not as attractive as apartments. Having a full kitchen, separate dining/living/bedroom spaces available makes a huge difference. Whilst you probably can get a small hotel room for the same price, I can certainly see the appeal.
Hotel is a room, Airbnb is a home. The difference in amenities is important and when, historically, Airbnb was cheaper, it was often superior to a hotel. Nowadays, Airbnb often costs more than a hotel, and so it’s a trade-off: pay more to have a kitchen? Another aspect is per-person cost: a hotel room is typically limited to 2 people, whereas an Airbnb can be dozens, so with higher capacity requirements Airbnb can still work out cheaper.
The problem with a hotel is that you have less space to relax and you can't cook for yourself. You might be able to get one with a small kitchen but they will probably be >$100 and likely not as featurefull as the ones you get in an Airbnb.
I prefer to have my own kitchen if I'm staying for more than a few days as I don't like eating out all of the time.
I prefer to have my own kitchen if I'm staying for more than a few days as I don't like eating out all of the time.
An airbnb (often) has a washing machine, a kitchen you can cook on and a fridge you can store food in.
For longer stays, hell even for short-term stays on weekends, I have found to like construction worker homes - usually these are rented out during the week for tradespeople and construction workers and during the weekend for tourists on a budget.
The problem with AirBnB is the rating system.
I have booked many dozens of apartments on AirBnB and my approach these days is:
1: Never book an apartment with less than 50 ratings
2: Never book an apartment with an average rating of less than 4.8 stars
The problem is that AirBnB has set up their system so that even complete garbage apartments have average ratings of over 4.5 stars.
Because of that, people still book those for normal prices.
If AirBnB would normalize the ratings (median rating = 2.5 stars), there would be an upward pressure on the hosts to improve the quality of their services.
But the way it is, there are only few good apartments on AirBnB.
Over the last years, I have only been to two apartments via AirBnB which I would consider "good". And both had over 50 ratings and the average rating was 5 stars.
I have booked many dozens of apartments on AirBnB and my approach these days is:
1: Never book an apartment with less than 50 ratings
2: Never book an apartment with an average rating of less than 4.8 stars
The problem is that AirBnB has set up their system so that even complete garbage apartments have average ratings of over 4.5 stars.
Because of that, people still book those for normal prices.
If AirBnB would normalize the ratings (median rating = 2.5 stars), there would be an upward pressure on the hosts to improve the quality of their services.
But the way it is, there are only few good apartments on AirBnB.
Over the last years, I have only been to two apartments via AirBnB which I would consider "good". And both had over 50 ratings and the average rating was 5 stars.
Looking back at places I've stayed... all have ratings over 4.8 (average above 4.9), all have 100+ ratings, 75% are "SuperHost". None were high priced (relative to other Airbnb in that area), mostly middle or high-middle price. All were as-depicted in the listing, with the worst being "adequate lodging, fantastic location" (steps from Ponte Vecchio, Florence, Italy - apartments was spacious and clean, but dated). Others were above expectations (newly remodeled crofters cottage near Stornoway, UK).
Based on my experience, either I'm staying in very different locations (typically not big cities, Florence being the exception) or shopping at very different price-points than many of the horror stories.
Based on my experience, either I'm staying in very different locations (typically not big cities, Florence being the exception) or shopping at very different price-points than many of the horror stories.
> 1: Never book an apartment with less than 50 ratings
The only good experience I've had was with a place that had zero reviews. I got to the point where i figured the review system was so unreliable and unfit for purpose that I would just take a chance and it worked.
I found a lot of those place with multiple good reviews were mainly from people who had stayed two nights and as part of a group where a cheap place to sleep was their number one criteria.
Mostly everyone else is just doing the ebay thing where I give you a good review and you give me one back since there is zero incentive to give an honest assessment that your next host will read and consider you a trouble maker.
The only good experience I've had was with a place that had zero reviews. I got to the point where i figured the review system was so unreliable and unfit for purpose that I would just take a chance and it worked.
I found a lot of those place with multiple good reviews were mainly from people who had stayed two nights and as part of a group where a cheap place to sleep was their number one criteria.
Mostly everyone else is just doing the ebay thing where I give you a good review and you give me one back since there is zero incentive to give an honest assessment that your next host will read and consider you a trouble maker.
Airbnb also makes it difficult to rate someone poorly without being rated poorly yourself. You get almost no recourse if you do get a bad review.
I thought the ratings were done blindly? If not, that's terrible and obviously leads to problems.
Airbnb Support is the worst. They speak and write very well, and make you feel they listen to you and will do their best to solve your issue. In most cases though, they will come back to you with a negative answer and will leave you in the worst of situations. You can check the reddit sub /airbnb or on Twitter.
Having 0 support like Google would be much better than being promised help will come, then having various customer agents taking over your case from scratch and then after exhaustion, being told you won't be refunded or no action will be taken
Having 0 support like Google would be much better than being promised help will come, then having various customer agents taking over your case from scratch and then after exhaustion, being told you won't be refunded or no action will be taken
My recent experience
I rarely write bad reviews but this place deserves one. Here's a list of things that didn't go well for us. 1. Unit is advertised as having a pool but there's a disclaimer hidden somewhere that amenities are not accessible to guests. Had multiple emails back and forth to understand that it's closed only after labor day weekend. 2. Unit has a kitchen but we were told that it doesn't have pots and pans. Again, a lot of back and forth. We packed a lot of utensils since we have some food allergies and can't eat restaurant food. In the end it turned out to have all the essential kitchen utensils. Wasted a lot of our time and caused unnecessary stress. 3. Unit does not have an air conditioner and it clearly states that there's no air conditioner. What was not mentioned is that the unit traps a lot of heat and is essentially unlivable at night. Our first night there, we couldn't sleep till 4am due to the heat. The fans were useless. 4. That night we discovered that the upstairs toilet was broken. We had to go downstairs every time we needed to use the bathroom that night. I tried to fix it in the morning but it was futile. 5. In the morning, I went to use the gas stove and saw a note that a lighter was needed to use the stove. Sadly, there was no lighter to be found in the unit. When I called the host, they said they'd reimburse the lighter which wasn't very helpful. I had to make a 30+ minute trip back to town to get a lighter. I missed my meal schedule which wasn't great. Someone had left a lighter outside the door when I was gone but forgot to tell us or knock the door. 6. Someone came to take a look at the toilet and said it was broken and that they needed a maintenance person to fix it. No maintenance person came that day. They reached out to me once to ask about a good time to fix the toilet but I wasn't at the unit and the place does not have cellphone signal. Out of the blue, the maintenance person sends me a text "+1 ( (Phone number hidden by Airbnb) : Go ahead give me more tickets I’m on a roll fixing everything lol Sorry wrong person Me: No problem. Looks like the toilet isn't still fixed" 7. The place continued to be unlivable at night. We did not get any sleep on all 3 nights. Woke up sleepy and dehydrated all 3 mornings. 8. For all this inconvenience caused, the response from the host was pathetic.
I rarely write bad reviews but this place deserves one. Here's a list of things that didn't go well for us. 1. Unit is advertised as having a pool but there's a disclaimer hidden somewhere that amenities are not accessible to guests. Had multiple emails back and forth to understand that it's closed only after labor day weekend. 2. Unit has a kitchen but we were told that it doesn't have pots and pans. Again, a lot of back and forth. We packed a lot of utensils since we have some food allergies and can't eat restaurant food. In the end it turned out to have all the essential kitchen utensils. Wasted a lot of our time and caused unnecessary stress. 3. Unit does not have an air conditioner and it clearly states that there's no air conditioner. What was not mentioned is that the unit traps a lot of heat and is essentially unlivable at night. Our first night there, we couldn't sleep till 4am due to the heat. The fans were useless. 4. That night we discovered that the upstairs toilet was broken. We had to go downstairs every time we needed to use the bathroom that night. I tried to fix it in the morning but it was futile. 5. In the morning, I went to use the gas stove and saw a note that a lighter was needed to use the stove. Sadly, there was no lighter to be found in the unit. When I called the host, they said they'd reimburse the lighter which wasn't very helpful. I had to make a 30+ minute trip back to town to get a lighter. I missed my meal schedule which wasn't great. Someone had left a lighter outside the door when I was gone but forgot to tell us or knock the door. 6. Someone came to take a look at the toilet and said it was broken and that they needed a maintenance person to fix it. No maintenance person came that day. They reached out to me once to ask about a good time to fix the toilet but I wasn't at the unit and the place does not have cellphone signal. Out of the blue, the maintenance person sends me a text "+1 ( (Phone number hidden by Airbnb) : Go ahead give me more tickets I’m on a roll fixing everything lol Sorry wrong person Me: No problem. Looks like the toilet isn't still fixed" 7. The place continued to be unlivable at night. We did not get any sleep on all 3 nights. Woke up sleepy and dehydrated all 3 mornings. 8. For all this inconvenience caused, the response from the host was pathetic.
> 2. Unit has a kitchen but we were told that it doesn't have pots and pans. Again, a lot of back and forth. We packed a lot of utensils since we have some food allergies and can't eat restaurant food. In the end it turned out to have all the essential kitchen utensils.
I've got a friend who has used AirBnB and has been burned by this every single time. She comes with her daughters and wants to do a bit of cooking buts not a single pot or pan to be found? Once she came and borrowed my pans which wasn't convenient and not really why she was paying AirBnB fees.
After being burned multiple times, she just stays with me. It isn't as convenient as i live further away from where she wants to be, but at least i have a working kitchen.
I don't get why people advertise they have a kitchen, yet remove all the tools needed to use it? Just seems like a real dick move.
I've got a friend who has used AirBnB and has been burned by this every single time. She comes with her daughters and wants to do a bit of cooking buts not a single pot or pan to be found? Once she came and borrowed my pans which wasn't convenient and not really why she was paying AirBnB fees.
After being burned multiple times, she just stays with me. It isn't as convenient as i live further away from where she wants to be, but at least i have a working kitchen.
I don't get why people advertise they have a kitchen, yet remove all the tools needed to use it? Just seems like a real dick move.
This is why I won't do AirBnb any more. Even with a relatively honest host, they are simply not equipped to handle an issue the way a hotel can. Hotels have engineers on duty or on call to fix a bad toilet, broken lock, or electrical problem and/or swap you to another room (or even another hotel!) if there's something wrong with your room. If there's a problem with the room you rent from an AirBnb host, there's nothing they can do.
Airbnb removed the visible star ratings on comments sometime ago, clearly they are optimizing for hosts and maximizing bookings, to me as a long term user of the platform it’s made it worst and disincentives hosts from providing good customer service. Overall I’ve had good experiences, and there are great places and hosts but it requires more research time to find them and to me that’s a bad sign of where it is heading.
Tangential but it's not a good idea to turn a breaker back on until someone has figured out why it flipped and fixed the problem. (The problem is usually that you tried to run the vacuum cleaner, a hair dryer, and an electric kettle all at once on the same circuit, but apparently that wasn't the issue in this case.) Circuir breakers are there to prevent fires, and they flip for a reason.
Pretty par for the course with airbnb support. Twice now I've had reservations cancelled hours before arrival with airbnb absolutely useless at finding an alternative. One time I was able to get some meagre compensation (the difference in price, even though it was inferior accomodation), the other time - nada, nothing.
I'm back to hotels again, with airbnb as a very last resort
I'm back to hotels again, with airbnb as a very last resort
Not surprised by this article. I lived in Airbnbs for 19 months during the pandemic and can share three similar horror stories. Airbnb's response was terrible. In one case, I had no water for three days and sewage leaking into the bathtub; Airbnb was totally unsupportive. In another case, the unit was run down and had no hot water; Airbnb was not able to help me so I actually had to shell out my own money to cancel the stay and book a new one. In a third incident, the unit was run down, unsafe, and was not following local rules that required it to have a STR license. Airbnb support did not seem to care that the host was breaking the law, and did the bare minimum to support.
The flip side is I had also some amazing AirBnb stays (thank you to my wonderful hosts in Port Angeles, WA and Galveston, TX), and that does give me some hope for the platform.
The flip side is I had also some amazing AirBnb stays (thank you to my wonderful hosts in Port Angeles, WA and Galveston, TX), and that does give me some hope for the platform.
> Airbnb support did not seem to care that the host was breaking the law, and did the bare minimum to support.
Looking the other way while their hosts break the law is what made Airbnb what it is today.
Looking the other way while their hosts break the law is what made Airbnb what it is today.
I found the Airbnb: https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/53946710 (or https://archive.ph/2fO1l)
The host's 'dating site style' profile image is a red flag from the outset, stock image or not.
The only practical tip I can offer regards airbnb is to rent places that are also featured on other well known sites, since this does reduce the risk a little.
The only practical tip I can offer regards airbnb is to rent places that are also featured on other well known sites, since this does reduce the risk a little.
That's your issue with the whole story, the host did not analyze the profile picture for "red flags"?
From this and the many other stories about AirBnB and its "support", best advice seems to be to immediately close your account, request your data to be deleted and never use any of its "services" again.
From this and the many other stories about AirBnB and its "support", best advice seems to be to immediately close your account, request your data to be deleted and never use any of its "services" again.
If it's such a red flag, then maybe maybe AirBnB could have culled it from the start. I mean if listing quality was of concern.
Almost all of what's described can happen outside of Airbnb as well.
Take Asheville, NC for example... they banned short-term rentals (for good reason). So, if somebody wants a 1-2 month rental, you would use Craigslist/Facebook, both of which are full of scammers. Friends got taken by a scam in 2020. Found a listing on Craigslist, had some email with "landlord", signed a 1-month lease, etc. When they arrived, the house was occupied (by its real owner, maybe). The neighbor came out and laughed, said they were the 3rd or 4th couple to be scammed at that address.
Take Asheville, NC for example... they banned short-term rentals (for good reason). So, if somebody wants a 1-2 month rental, you would use Craigslist/Facebook, both of which are full of scammers. Friends got taken by a scam in 2020. Found a listing on Craigslist, had some email with "landlord", signed a 1-month lease, etc. When they arrived, the house was occupied (by its real owner, maybe). The neighbor came out and laughed, said they were the 3rd or 4th couple to be scammed at that address.
I was an enthusiastic user of Airbnb until I faced the reality of the platform on a trip to Seul. After being offered to sleep in what looked like a maintenance closet because the room I had booked was no longer available for the first time contacted Airbnb support.
Apart of the fact that the experience was infuriating and frustrating, I am pretty sure 80% of the time it was a bot replying my messages not a support agent. I never got a full refund and I decided it was not worth the trouble, since then I just book hotels.
>being offered to sleep in what looked like a maintenance closet because the room I had booked was no longer available
This bait and switch scam seems somewhat common-ish on Airbnb
https://www.vice.com/en/article/43k7z3/nationwide-fake-host-...
This bait and switch scam seems somewhat common-ish on Airbnb
https://www.vice.com/en/article/43k7z3/nationwide-fake-host-...
Side note: I released https://stay100.app a few weeks ago. It is a desktop based search engine for AirBnB.
I'm surprised that the medium account posting this has a profile picture cropped from the exact same stock photo that the supposed villain cropped his profile picture from.
We need a new AirBnB, what it promised to be initially. A club for ordinary (or extraordinary) people to find/share a room rather than an indistry-scale business platform.
The trouble is that everyone is on the net now, so it will just get corrupted immediately by people trying to commercialize the space.
I think house-swapping gets around this by doing away with any possible financial gain, but this precludes you have a house of your own you're willing to have people live in while you're in their home.
I think house-swapping gets around this by doing away with any possible financial gain, but this precludes you have a house of your own you're willing to have people live in while you're in their home.
For a short period of time, couchsurfing.com was that magical place.
So I've been seeing a lot of anti or negative AirBnB reviews and comments recently and honestly, I have to ask... where the hell are people staying?
I've booked about 10 AirBnBs over the past month, while travelling through Europe. I basically had to as my mental and physical health had deteriorated due to staying in hostels, with the never ending cycle of snorers, lights on, late night returns, etc. And hotels were absurdly expensive.
Each AirBnB that I booked, in
* Barcelona, Spain
* Amsterdam, NL
* middle-Germany
* Denmark
* Norway
were all someone's extra space in their house they had; or a side unit to their main house; or their entire place and they were on travel or business outside the country.
Additionally, ALL of them I booked were far, far cheaper than hotels by many margins, and I could cook to my diet in many of the spaces I stayed. That really helped cost wise too.
None of them had ridiculous cleaning requirements OR cleaning fees (and I clean the dishes and pots and pans I use by hand simply because I need them again or otherwise, and I'm not an animal). None of them had ridiculous AirBnB fees, although most were pretty much a good deal, and then AirBnB fees made it a bit less of a good deal.
Sorry for this sounding a bit preachy, I'm well aware of the damage AirBnB does to communities, cities, countries even but I'm baffled how many shitty experiences it sounds like people are having recently.
(there's a BIG anti-tourism/anti-AirBnB mentality and movement in Barcelona, which I experienced first hand not getting any change back for a 10 euro bill on a 2 euro purchase; minor but still, sheesh)
On the other side of that, I'm also fully on board with properties that were bought explicitly to use as AirBnBs or rental homes for tourists, to return to market, and I really hope that does happen. I say that because as evidenced by my experiences, there are still places that sort of follow the original ethos of AirBnBs: rent your extra personal space out.
I typed all this from a small basement area in Norway, that I booked on AirBnB, which is very comfortable, and relaxing. I made some great pasta too, which honestly I can't say I've ever been able to do in hotels. Also, I have far greater concerns with hotels and *bugs than with AirBnBs and similar stuff, but that's just me
Honestly though, I will probably avoid using AirBnB in the future as best I can, especially as it seems unnecessary through Japan.
I've booked about 10 AirBnBs over the past month, while travelling through Europe. I basically had to as my mental and physical health had deteriorated due to staying in hostels, with the never ending cycle of snorers, lights on, late night returns, etc. And hotels were absurdly expensive.
Each AirBnB that I booked, in
* Barcelona, Spain
* Amsterdam, NL
* middle-Germany
* Denmark
* Norway
were all someone's extra space in their house they had; or a side unit to their main house; or their entire place and they were on travel or business outside the country.
Additionally, ALL of them I booked were far, far cheaper than hotels by many margins, and I could cook to my diet in many of the spaces I stayed. That really helped cost wise too.
None of them had ridiculous cleaning requirements OR cleaning fees (and I clean the dishes and pots and pans I use by hand simply because I need them again or otherwise, and I'm not an animal). None of them had ridiculous AirBnB fees, although most were pretty much a good deal, and then AirBnB fees made it a bit less of a good deal.
Sorry for this sounding a bit preachy, I'm well aware of the damage AirBnB does to communities, cities, countries even but I'm baffled how many shitty experiences it sounds like people are having recently.
(there's a BIG anti-tourism/anti-AirBnB mentality and movement in Barcelona, which I experienced first hand not getting any change back for a 10 euro bill on a 2 euro purchase; minor but still, sheesh)
On the other side of that, I'm also fully on board with properties that were bought explicitly to use as AirBnBs or rental homes for tourists, to return to market, and I really hope that does happen. I say that because as evidenced by my experiences, there are still places that sort of follow the original ethos of AirBnBs: rent your extra personal space out.
I typed all this from a small basement area in Norway, that I booked on AirBnB, which is very comfortable, and relaxing. I made some great pasta too, which honestly I can't say I've ever been able to do in hotels. Also, I have far greater concerns with hotels and *bugs than with AirBnBs and similar stuff, but that's just me
Honestly though, I will probably avoid using AirBnB in the future as best I can, especially as it seems unnecessary through Japan.
My Airbnb in Portugal experience was almost identical to the one in the article. After some time it happened it got me almost laughing at this point. Fortunately for me I was able to be enough of a pain in the ass to get a full refund from airbnb and a coupon that made the monthly stay discount apply to less than a monthly stay. I had to spend more money in the end anyway. After this I try to avoid airbnb as much as possible.
<insert any tech company here> "...might seem like they care, they might seem like they have processes and teams in place to take care of you but they do not. Their call center and support center staff are an outsourced company in the Phillipines who do not care about you, who do not bother reading your issues and cases and who do not care if you are in danger."
FWIW I stayed with my wife and 2 teenagers in airbnbs this summer in Norway, Germany, Czechia and Italy and they were all great ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Same here, also europe, been doing airbnb and similar websites (before airbnb was popular) for more than 10 years and it’s been nothing but good. Went to a hotel this summer because prices were too high, kids complained how small it is. Besides airbnb, next is agro tourism, which is also great. Having breakfast at the hotel is nice though
This is why I prefer chain hotels. By no means perfect but does introduce some sort of floor as to how fraud-y terrible things can get...
I think I've basically realized that I should simply not rent AirBnB, too many horror stories, including from people I know personally. It's hard to resist though, it's just nicer to have an apartment than a hotel room.
I guess I'll probably keep using it for times when it if it fails it doesn't ruin my life (not a month overseas).
I guess I'll probably keep using it for times when it if it fails it doesn't ruin my life (not a month overseas).
Air BnB is terrible it's not worth using any more.
Too many of the hosts are weird, with odd rules and renting out weird spots.
Too many of the hosts are weird, with odd rules and renting out weird spots.
As bad as this person's experience was, Airbnb fills a niche for me that I haven't seen anyone else compete in: larger (ideally detached) accommodations in non-vacation destinations. I have young children and having separate bedrooms is great when we're visiting family for example.
IMO this reeks of data-driven myopia. Slow bleeds to goodwill are incredibly difficult to properly capture into a model. Anything that isn't measured - or poorly measured - is liable to be traded off for what is measured.
Hotels are not without failure, too. I stayed in both the hotels and AirBnbs often (as a rough guess ~75 hotel stays and 30 airbnb stays) and saw hotels full on arrival late at night, noisy rooms, electrical failures and one flood from a guest upstairs, who managed from room 6XX vacate rooms 5XX 4XX 3XX and 2XX -- quite an achievment!
I may be lucky, but all my AirBnb stays were pretty good to excellent. I book for convenience, not trying to beat the hotel on price and prioritize listings with long, consistent history.
In general, having several rooms where a jetlagged family member can turn on the light and read without waking everyone else is a huge feature. So is having a full kitchen, so for me the AirBnb has been a clear net positive option. My 2c, others may have a different experience.
I may be lucky, but all my AirBnb stays were pretty good to excellent. I book for convenience, not trying to beat the hotel on price and prioritize listings with long, consistent history.
In general, having several rooms where a jetlagged family member can turn on the light and read without waking everyone else is a huge feature. So is having a full kitchen, so for me the AirBnb has been a clear net positive option. My 2c, others may have a different experience.
I'm guessing that some of your AirBnB success is because you seem to choose fairly carefully and not just on price.
That said, you also seem to have had bad luck with hotels. I've stayed in many hundreds and the percentage of memorably bad experiences I've had is tiny. I'm not sure if I have had the kind of record you have had even if I go back decades. I can't remember the last time a hotel gave away my room.
That said, you also seem to have had bad luck with hotels. I've stayed in many hundreds and the percentage of memorably bad experiences I've had is tiny. I'm not sure if I have had the kind of record you have had even if I go back decades. I can't remember the last time a hotel gave away my room.
> That said, you also seem to have had bad luck with hotels.
That was not the message I tried to convey, sorry. I did a lot of business travel at one time, stayed in a lot of hotels and have no aversion to them at all. If I am traveling alone, I almost always stay in hotels. Family travel is usually with AirBnB.
I was simply saying that AirBnb should not be seen as universally evil based on a few stories, however horrible, as there are still use cases where it seems to work well. My 2c.
That was not the message I tried to convey, sorry. I did a lot of business travel at one time, stayed in a lot of hotels and have no aversion to them at all. If I am traveling alone, I almost always stay in hotels. Family travel is usually with AirBnB.
I was simply saying that AirBnb should not be seen as universally evil based on a few stories, however horrible, as there are still use cases where it seems to work well. My 2c.
It occurs to me that the very existence of Airbnb(and so many other startups that offer cheaper alternatives) is a grift on people who can’t afford the real cost of travel and vacations.
As usual, the companies make money and the product is the economically strained consumer. We see this kind of grift everywhere from car sales to real estate interest rates where poor people and people of colour are targeted because they want something more than they can afford.
Everyone is always looking for a deal or something cheaper even when they don’t have to..and there are others who have been conned into parting with the few dollars they have because they have been convinced that they deserve a certain experience even if it’s sub par.
The only way to deal with this societal malnutrition is to find joy in everything. Example: The notion that one has to go on a family vacation annually like it’s a sacred vow pilgrimage is a uniquely western phenomenon. and a seemingly recent one.
Something strange has been happening recently. The attachment to material things has somehow made people blind to reality. Their own reality. The reality of their wallets.
Consumers in the west are not the true poor, but due to social media and some perverted sense of entitlement, they want the experiences of gazillionaires. Which makes them artificially poor. Quantity over quality is the first indication that one is living with a sense of lack or scarcity.
But I don’t understand the new found middle class obsession with luxury at cheap deals. Never has anyone in the world lived in such abundance. No one has childhood memories of overseas travels or annual cruises or vacations. So this must be a planted desire. It’s not real. The Airbnb customer is the product. Consumers minds are just fertile grounds where unreasonable expectations are seeded. Hence the wild chase for something cheaper.
The first priority for any vacation stay should be safety and then cleanliness and then comfort. The reviewing system and site should be independent.
But that’s a long game. Companies that want to stay forever put in such controls. Short grifts don’t have to worry because in a Ponzi scheme, the people at the top would have made the money early on well before the decay and rot sets in the balance sheet.
As usual, the companies make money and the product is the economically strained consumer. We see this kind of grift everywhere from car sales to real estate interest rates where poor people and people of colour are targeted because they want something more than they can afford.
Everyone is always looking for a deal or something cheaper even when they don’t have to..and there are others who have been conned into parting with the few dollars they have because they have been convinced that they deserve a certain experience even if it’s sub par.
The only way to deal with this societal malnutrition is to find joy in everything. Example: The notion that one has to go on a family vacation annually like it’s a sacred vow pilgrimage is a uniquely western phenomenon. and a seemingly recent one.
Something strange has been happening recently. The attachment to material things has somehow made people blind to reality. Their own reality. The reality of their wallets.
Consumers in the west are not the true poor, but due to social media and some perverted sense of entitlement, they want the experiences of gazillionaires. Which makes them artificially poor. Quantity over quality is the first indication that one is living with a sense of lack or scarcity.
But I don’t understand the new found middle class obsession with luxury at cheap deals. Never has anyone in the world lived in such abundance. No one has childhood memories of overseas travels or annual cruises or vacations. So this must be a planted desire. It’s not real. The Airbnb customer is the product. Consumers minds are just fertile grounds where unreasonable expectations are seeded. Hence the wild chase for something cheaper.
The first priority for any vacation stay should be safety and then cleanliness and then comfort. The reviewing system and site should be independent.
But that’s a long game. Companies that want to stay forever put in such controls. Short grifts don’t have to worry because in a Ponzi scheme, the people at the top would have made the money early on well before the decay and rot sets in the balance sheet.
> AirBnB might seem like they care, they might seem like they have processes and teams in place to take care of you but they do not.
I am always surprised that people are surprised by this. This is what those companies do. AirBnB, Uber, deliveroo, twitter, whatever.
It's what they mean when they talk about "disrupt the market". Offer a service with the bare minimum of humans (underpaid as much as possible). No concern for communities they "disrupt", or their customers, or taxes.
They are the company equivalent of vermin infesting society.
I am always surprised that people are surprised by this. This is what those companies do. AirBnB, Uber, deliveroo, twitter, whatever.
It's what they mean when they talk about "disrupt the market". Offer a service with the bare minimum of humans (underpaid as much as possible). No concern for communities they "disrupt", or their customers, or taxes.
They are the company equivalent of vermin infesting society.
> I am always surprised that people are surprised by this
In general, people assume good faith and law-abiding behavior, partly because when regular people don't abide by the law (even inadvertently), it catches up with them fairly quickly.
The surprising bit is that when companies break the law, there are no consequences. What Airbnb is doing here is effectively fraud, they've misled the customer into thinking they were covered by an insurance policy or some sort of money-back guarantee, but are not honoring their part of the bargain.
In general, people assume good faith and law-abiding behavior, partly because when regular people don't abide by the law (even inadvertently), it catches up with them fairly quickly.
The surprising bit is that when companies break the law, there are no consequences. What Airbnb is doing here is effectively fraud, they've misled the customer into thinking they were covered by an insurance policy or some sort of money-back guarantee, but are not honoring their part of the bargain.
The incentives of marketplaces are partially aligned with scammers. Solving this would be of major impact for the global economy.
Airbnb and hotels both have their place. Airbnb is at it's best in spots like coastal California where a place with outdoor space, cute decor, and a kitchen is really nice AND you can always go to a Holiday Inn off the 101 if things go sideways.
Avoid in places you haven't been to before or when you'd be really screwed if it ended up being unsuitable.
Avoid in places you haven't been to before or when you'd be really screwed if it ended up being unsuitable.
AirBnB works in my opinion best for very remote, or not-tourist travelled places. Where you're going to the island of Sørøya, for example, and there's literally no hotel space or otherwise accommodations available. Unfortunately, big business management companies exist in Norway too... go figure.
I used to enjoy Airbnb until I ended up in a place with bedbugs. Never again.
Agree with the other commentator, that can happen literally anywhere in the world. Bedbugs are THE human parasite, fuck em but they're everywhere. You should do your due diligence when staying or traveling anywhere, before putting bags down or sleeping in a new space.
I understand that for you I am “a random someone went somewhere”. So from your point of view it might make sense that talking about things that “can happen anywhere” makes some sense.
What you need to understand is that for me I am not just “someone who went somewhere”. This was something that really happened to me personally and it was extremely uncomfortable and I’d rather not delve on the details. That is why a statistic-based argument makes no sense to me. I will never use Airbnb, ever again, because it left me both physically and mentally scarred. It’s not an abstract ethereous thing for me.
What you need to understand is that for me I am not just “someone who went somewhere”. This was something that really happened to me personally and it was extremely uncomfortable and I’d rather not delve on the details. That is why a statistic-based argument makes no sense to me. I will never use Airbnb, ever again, because it left me both physically and mentally scarred. It’s not an abstract ethereous thing for me.
That can happen anywhere.
She goes to fix the fuses wet from having a shower and possibly barefoot?
Although that seems foolhardy, there should be no chance of electricity flowing through the reset button/switch if regulations are followed (which is obviously why there are regulations around domestic electricity wiring).
I'm not sure how serious to take this article. It's the author's only post and while they complain about the use of a fake profile picture, they literally use another person from the same stock photo they claim the landlord used.
Keep that in mind when you are renting a condo from her. Oh wait, she isn't offering anything to sell/lease on there? She just wants to report on this anonymously? Hmm
Get a hotel next time like an adult.
For a whole month‽
https://www.marriott.com/travel-experience/extended-stay-hot...
Seeing prices around 3K depending on a city, so yea.
Seeing prices around 3K depending on a city, so yea.
I wasn't thinking of the price but the comfort. You wouldn't have a kitchen so would have to eat out all of the time. I like eating out every now and then but not for more than a few days in a row. Certainly not for a month.
Quite surprised by the amount of pitchforks here. I certainly don't think of AirBNB as a failure and I doubt most others would. Is there a problem with scams? Totally. But that's hardly exclusive to AirBNB, wherever there's a market, digital or physical, there will be scammers. This was the case for all of human history and it's on you to vet your stuff.
I've used AirBNB for long and short term stays, in Europe and in the US. Each time I stayed in a delightful places that was a genuine passion project for the hosts. Those places would not exist without AirBNB and similar services.
If you're on a tight budget and just need a place to stay at for a bit, it's obviously easier to go with a Marriott. But if you're willing to spend some time on searching the best place to complement your trip, AirBNB can get you the best experience.
I've used AirBNB for long and short term stays, in Europe and in the US. Each time I stayed in a delightful places that was a genuine passion project for the hosts. Those places would not exist without AirBNB and similar services.
If you're on a tight budget and just need a place to stay at for a bit, it's obviously easier to go with a Marriott. But if you're willing to spend some time on searching the best place to complement your trip, AirBNB can get you the best experience.
The problem is that Airbnb is the scammer here. They've intentionally misleading customers thinking they will be protected against scams of this type while in reality they are not.
Problem is not scam itself, but how airbnb handles it. If customer with 10 years old history, reports problem, it should by treated seriously. Not stole with "more proof needed" tactics.
If hotel chain electricuted people in shower, it would get fined and closed pronto.
If hotel chain electricuted people in shower, it would get fined and closed pronto.
You know where I have never gotten scammed? A hotel. I would stay in a cheapish hotel before staying in an AirBnb.
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> The toilet was in a constant state of flowing.
Just press the flush a few times or whack the water tank. Common problem with tanks in european households. If there is no water to flush, just fill a bucket, washbowl or pot with water and flush that way. Honestly, I stopped reading after this, seems like whining from someone without skills to deal with adulthood. Hey, maybe a lightbulb also burned out.
Just press the flush a few times or whack the water tank. Common problem with tanks in european households. If there is no water to flush, just fill a bucket, washbowl or pot with water and flush that way. Honestly, I stopped reading after this, seems like whining from someone without skills to deal with adulthood. Hey, maybe a lightbulb also burned out.
> Honestly, I stopped reading after this, seems like whining from someone without skills to deal with adulthood.
In the case where the terms of the living arrangement are “you can stay here 30 days for free, but you’ll need to take care of any issues you come upon yourself.”, this would be an appropriate response.
In this case, as mentioned in the article, they are “you can stay here for 30 days for $3,000”. Totally different story.
In the case where the terms of the living arrangement are “you can stay here 30 days for free, but you’ll need to take care of any issues you come upon yourself.”, this would be an appropriate response.
In this case, as mentioned in the article, they are “you can stay here for 30 days for $3,000”. Totally different story.
Sure, and as a potential home buyer in croatia, I have my qualms with airbnb and wealthy young western tourists causing every dump to be rented out and driving up real-estate prices. I just think that writing about a leaking flush tank like it's some kind of emergency doesn't make the case against airbnb hosts stronger.
You really should read the full article before commenting. The apartment was in breach of several local laws (for example, no working fire extinguisher or first aid kit, inadequate signage, non-working lock), and the electrical wiring was faulty, causing 2 people to be shocked. The lighting circuit had totally failed by the time the OP wrote the article. It certainly wasn't someone moaning about a minor issue, and it's not too much to ask for a $3000-per-month rental to be excellent quality and not...you know, try to kill you.
Not sure what “common European household” you live in, but that is commonly not a problem over here.
Had issues with several geberit and other cisterns, all started leaking after some time.
Lime deposits?
It's pretty common to encounter a toilet where that part which closes the water flow is broken. No amount of whacking is going to help.
Might be a case of different meaning attributed to a word, whacking don't help, but jiggling often works when the gasket as starting to go bad (I promise I will buy a new gasket any time soon, but right now gently jiggling temporary solves the problem)
>Honestly, I stopped reading after this, seems like whining from someone without skills to deal with adulthood.
Does it make her opinion less important?
Does it make her opinion less important?
You seem like you would be the perfect AirBnB customer.
Things don't work as expected, and you simply pay up?
Not sure about you, but if I was staying at a place for a length of time i would expect things like the toilet work properly. As someone paying for a place to stay, "filing a bucket with water" to flush the toilet isn't something i should be doing. Toilets are not expensive and easy to replace, it sounds like this one should have been replaced some time ago.
Things don't work as expected, and you simply pay up?
Not sure about you, but if I was staying at a place for a length of time i would expect things like the toilet work properly. As someone paying for a place to stay, "filing a bucket with water" to flush the toilet isn't something i should be doing. Toilets are not expensive and easy to replace, it sounds like this one should have been replaced some time ago.
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The same is true for Amazon and other marketplace business. It's overrun by Amazon FBA sellers selling cheap low-quality white-labeled Alibaba products. It's almost impossible to find real brands or high-quality products these days, unless you specifically know what to search for.
How to deal with it? Personally I've started going back to hotels to be safe. If I do use Airbnb, I do a lot of research on the host and reviews and assume the place I'm getting is 80% worse than what the pictures show.
Other examples: App Store app reviews, restaurant review apps and food delivery apps. Fortunately it's not a big deal if these are scams. It's just a few dollars. Sucks much more when it's your vacation rental.