Microsoft Account to local account conversion guide erased from Windows 11 guide(tomshardware.com)
tomshardware.com
Microsoft Account to local account conversion guide erased from Windows 11 guide
https://www.tomshardware.com/software/windows/microsoft-account-to-local-account-conversion-guide-erased-from-official-windows-11-guide-instructions-redacted-earlier-this-week
297 comments
> But I find there’s a strangely good feeling to walking away from someone who’s making presumptions about their right to my time, attention, and money while spitting in my face, and I feel like I’m a normal enough person to be a reasonable barometer on that sentiment.
This reminds of the dungeon scene in Monthy Python's Life of Brian.
"Prisoner: Oh, what I wouldn't give to be spat at in the face. I sometimes hang awake at night dreaming of being spat at in the face. "
This reminds of the dungeon scene in Monthy Python's Life of Brian.
"Prisoner: Oh, what I wouldn't give to be spat at in the face. I sometimes hang awake at night dreaming of being spat at in the face. "
Stream chatters must be some of the weakest minded people I've ever come across. It's very sad.
I’m sure the dynamics of multiple people in an online chatroom and the effects on their mindset are well above my ability to understand, but I think it’s a lot simpler than that.
Streaming is a business with the goal of getting people who walk into your (virtual) shop to give you their (subscription) money, just like every other business that has ever existed. The product being sold is the streamer’s personality and ability to entertain.
If your business model involves insulting those people, I don’t think it’s really sensible or a good sign for the long term sustainability of that business to declare them weak minded when they predictably find that being insulted is not something they’d like to pay for.
Then again, I’m not a streamer. Maybe they know something I don’t.
Streaming is a business with the goal of getting people who walk into your (virtual) shop to give you their (subscription) money, just like every other business that has ever existed. The product being sold is the streamer’s personality and ability to entertain.
If your business model involves insulting those people, I don’t think it’s really sensible or a good sign for the long term sustainability of that business to declare them weak minded when they predictably find that being insulted is not something they’d like to pay for.
Then again, I’m not a streamer. Maybe they know something I don’t.
People frequently enjoy being part of the joke if others are also part of the joke.
I don't really think people who engage with this sad form of action have any cognitive load on why they are doing it.
I don't really think people who engage with this sad form of action have any cognitive load on why they are doing it.
definitely seen the streamer behaviour elsewhere but i would cut slack for WoW ones especially given how toxic the (in-game) chat is over there.
jokes aside, it is not easy to enforce this policy with m$. very few windows or non-apple devices allow you to get it without the os. even if they do, you might still not get compensated for the subsidized rate the oem get windows for.
all you can really do is not to use their email and chat services online i suppose. good luck doing anything about it if your workplace relies on Active Directory.
jokes aside, it is not easy to enforce this policy with m$. very few windows or non-apple devices allow you to get it without the os. even if they do, you might still not get compensated for the subsidized rate the oem get windows for.
all you can really do is not to use their email and chat services online i suppose. good luck doing anything about it if your workplace relies on Active Directory.
I would encourage anyone who is comfortable with reinstalling Windows (or knows someone, I am about to do this to my partners PC) to go with the LTSC version of Windows. 11 LTSC is even out now if you want the most compatible version for gaming (I have seen some arguments that there are features in 11 that make games run better but I have yet to be able to really confirm this).
Gives all of the advantages on compatibility (particularly for gaming, I even installed LTSC on my Steam Deck) with having a seriously stripped down version of Windows.
Microsoft is very careful to make it seem like LTSC is so stripped down that it really only works for kiosks or similar devices, but it is perfectly capable as a general computing device. It is possible to install things that it is missing fairly easily, like if you need the Microsoft store (windows store? don't remember the name) to use the Xbox app it will prompt you to install the missing components.
Edit:
Since I got a couple comments about the license. I should have included that here. There is a github project for activation.
Since it is perfectly viable but removes a lot of the crap that Microsoft wants to push of course they don't make it easy to get. But personally if I already have a legal copy of Windows 11 I have no moral problems with using this script to activate LTSC Version.
Getting the ISO is easy with Microsoft providing them free to download.
Edit again:
Instead of replying to every comment regarding to just switch to linux I will edit my post here explaining why I have not.
First off, is for me Windows is primarily for gaming. So compatibility and performance are my number one priority.
Proton is great but you can't beat the compatibility of just using Windows. Never need to worry about an update breaking something or a game not working. It just does. In at least a few cases performance is even better on the LTSC version compared to SteamOS on my Steam Deck.
I also don't want to be restricted to just using Steam for games or needing to jump through additional hoops to play from other stores.
I play video games to relax, that isn't a time that I want to be tinkering or messing with my computer if something goes wrong.
Gives all of the advantages on compatibility (particularly for gaming, I even installed LTSC on my Steam Deck) with having a seriously stripped down version of Windows.
Microsoft is very careful to make it seem like LTSC is so stripped down that it really only works for kiosks or similar devices, but it is perfectly capable as a general computing device. It is possible to install things that it is missing fairly easily, like if you need the Microsoft store (windows store? don't remember the name) to use the Xbox app it will prompt you to install the missing components.
Edit:
Since I got a couple comments about the license. I should have included that here. There is a github project for activation.
Since it is perfectly viable but removes a lot of the crap that Microsoft wants to push of course they don't make it easy to get. But personally if I already have a legal copy of Windows 11 I have no moral problems with using this script to activate LTSC Version.
Getting the ISO is easy with Microsoft providing them free to download.
Edit again:
Instead of replying to every comment regarding to just switch to linux I will edit my post here explaining why I have not.
First off, is for me Windows is primarily for gaming. So compatibility and performance are my number one priority.
Proton is great but you can't beat the compatibility of just using Windows. Never need to worry about an update breaking something or a game not working. It just does. In at least a few cases performance is even better on the LTSC version compared to SteamOS on my Steam Deck.
I also don't want to be restricted to just using Steam for games or needing to jump through additional hoops to play from other stores.
I play video games to relax, that isn't a time that I want to be tinkering or messing with my computer if something goes wrong.
Didn't know what LTSC was about, so for people in the same boat:
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot/iot-enterprise...
The main issue I'd see is licensing. It seems to be a completely different bucket, so would it activate with a Home or Pro license ? (OEM or not)
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot/iot-enterprise...
The main issue I'd see is licensing. It seems to be a completely different bucket, so would it activate with a Home or Pro license ? (OEM or not)
I should have mentioned that, yeah Licensing is the key problem here but there is a github script that fixes this if you don't have any ethical issues with that.
But personally if I already have a legal copy of Win11 I have no moral problems with reinstalling LTSC and using a script to activate it.
But personally if I already have a legal copy of Win11 I have no moral problems with reinstalling LTSC and using a script to activate it.
There is no github script that fixes this, there are scripts that redirect the activation mechanism to pirate activation servers that validate every incoming request. Not knowing this mechanism beforehand, I was very surprised by this, because this is what even many activator software do as well.
I consider it a major breach of trust from the authors. Maybe there can be an exploit that uses the activation mechanism as a vector, and then, many of such machines will be compromised. This is a risk, and it's something that a user needs to evaluate before going into it.
I personally solve this for myself by running the activation server emulator myself. It's open source software and really easy to set up as well.
https://github.com/Wind4/vlmcsd
I consider it a major breach of trust from the authors. Maybe there can be an exploit that uses the activation mechanism as a vector, and then, many of such machines will be compromised. This is a risk, and it's something that a user needs to evaluate before going into it.
I personally solve this for myself by running the activation server emulator myself. It's open source software and really easy to set up as well.
https://github.com/Wind4/vlmcsd
This is untrue. The script being referred to by the original comment activates your IoT LTSC as perfectly genuine at Microsoft's own server, no third party comes into play.
https://massgrave.dev/
https://massgrave.dev/
Right, I forgot about the digital license activation method. I even used it myself in the past, albeit manually. Thanks for the correction.
Thanks for the pointer.
The more I think of it, the more licensing looks like the best representation of Microsoft's strategy for Windows.
Stable, lean and long term focused versions are locked under the most hidden of the enterprise licenses. Decent versions without the garbage ads and spyware features only ship to enterprise. "Pro" users are only blessed with virtualization and a few candies, and share the worse edition with "Home" users.
It makes a lot more sense why the enterprise machines are near 30% more expensive than their customer counterpart.
The more I think of it, the more licensing looks like the best representation of Microsoft's strategy for Windows.
Stable, lean and long term focused versions are locked under the most hidden of the enterprise licenses. Decent versions without the garbage ads and spyware features only ship to enterprise. "Pro" users are only blessed with virtualization and a few candies, and share the worse edition with "Home" users.
It makes a lot more sense why the enterprise machines are near 30% more expensive than their customer counterpart.
It is interesting because a lot of people criticize Apple as basically you are paying for privacy.
And that is very true, they have turned it into a marketing feature.
But Microsoft is very brazen about it when it comes to Windows. The more you pay the less privacy invasive crap there is. I don't know for sure what the difference between home and pro is for analytics sent back to Microsoft, but LTSC is a drastic difference. (annoyingly still not zero though)
And that is very true, they have turned it into a marketing feature.
But Microsoft is very brazen about it when it comes to Windows. The more you pay the less privacy invasive crap there is. I don't know for sure what the difference between home and pro is for analytics sent back to Microsoft, but LTSC is a drastic difference. (annoyingly still not zero though)
It is always ethical to pirate Microsoft software.
The unethical thing is giving them more money for this slop.
And how do you propose Regular Joe procure a license? Not trying to be snide, but LTSC is an enterprise product that is only available with volume licensing.
So unless you want to pirate it…
So unless you want to pirate it…
"This one weird trick makes Windows not suck" - except that the weird trick is... piracy!
I get that people really like Windows, but all these contortions just to delay the inevitable... yeesh. At some point, people either need to get onboard with the MS vision for the product, or accept that it's time to switch to something different.
I get that people really like Windows, but all these contortions just to delay the inevitable... yeesh. At some point, people either need to get onboard with the MS vision for the product, or accept that it's time to switch to something different.
You can get LTSC through microsoft resellers. Last I heard, you have to buy at least 5 licenses to be in Volume Licensing, but if you only have one computer, you can buy one LTSC license ($270-$300) and then 4 low cost filler licenses (I think seats for something were $10-$30 each?)
And the LTSC license is an upgrade license, so the computer needs licensing for Windows already (maybe needs Pro and not Home, too).
But it ends up being a large amount of money to run wierd windows.
And the LTSC license is an upgrade license, so the computer needs licensing for Windows already (maybe needs Pro and not Home, too).
But it ends up being a large amount of money to run wierd windows.
No need for a license. Just activate it with one of the many activation scripts around.
So pirate it
Some would say, if you already have a legal, paid-for license to run Windows on a given PC, and you merely want a slightly different version which is older and doesn't add any extra features, that's a lesser form of piracy.
It's using a legit copy of windows and performing a legit activation, no exploits or anything. To call it piracy is the same as me telling you my pin and calling you a hacker when you login to my account, no? Microsoft could fix it, but they don't.
I genuinely wonder why they haven't. Those activation githubs have been around for what feels like forever at this point, and you just activate copies of Windows acquired from Microsoft for free, and they just... don't seem to care?
I have no direct knowledge, but my best guess is that they have significant legit customers using these as an alternative to Microsoft's own Key Management Services. Historically, some stuff like this has even turned out to be used by the company themselves (e.g. a few Steam/GOG releases have been found to use old warez scene cracks, official arcade emulators using bootleg sets from MAME, etc.).
I use my MSDN keys generated back in 2015 over and over. It works great 9 years later.
> To call it piracy is the same as me telling you my pin and calling you a hacker when you login to my account, no?
Somewhat absurd linguistically and morally ambiguous, yet possibly legally accurate?
Somewhat absurd linguistically and morally ambiguous, yet possibly legally accurate?
Was it piracy to install windows 95 on 100 computers with one cd and one product id and no outside licensing?
Of course it was. Just because it lets you do it, doesn't mean it's not piracy.
Of course it was. Just because it lets you do it, doesn't mean it's not piracy.
Well, that activation was entirely offline, wasn't it? With the tech at the time, would it really be possible to stop multiple activations? Windows 11 now requires you to log in using email and that you have internet, so they could easily pull the plug on the MAS scripts. Yet they don't.
IMHO, you have more of an obligation to pay for a license than they have an obligation to enforce payment through technical means.
Serious question, why not just switch to linux? I installed W11 after building gaming / workstation this year, and I've grudgingly left it in place because I don't want 'anti-cheat' hassles that you sometimes run into playing games with steam / proton.
If WSL wasn't a thing I would have formatted it by now. Linux is just such a better experience for development. I also simply cannot shake the fear that windows is leaking every keystroke back to some MS service I haven't disabled.
If WSL wasn't a thing I would have formatted it by now. Linux is just such a better experience for development. I also simply cannot shake the fear that windows is leaking every keystroke back to some MS service I haven't disabled.
Gaming.
Even while Proton is incredible - the experience with nvidia GPUs is still less than stellar. So if you want high resolution/framerate gaming - especially if you add HDR to that - you’re still stuck with windows.
I’d love to switch to Linux if I could, I use it or MacOS for everything else.
Even while Proton is incredible - the experience with nvidia GPUs is still less than stellar. So if you want high resolution/framerate gaming - especially if you add HDR to that - you’re still stuck with windows.
I’d love to switch to Linux if I could, I use it or MacOS for everything else.
Exactly this. I was having a silly argument recently with someone that was trying to say Proton was just as good as DirectX/Windows, and it's really not even close in terms of support and stability, not to mention it only works with Steam initially.
I have noticed that there seems to be a subset of gamers that want so badly for Linux gaming to be a thing that they ignore the problems.
For the record it is great, they have done a very good job with proton and I am not diminishing that work.
But try to bring up this conversation on YouTube, reddit, or similar places and it becomes toxic very quickly. Even when presented with raw numbers. It has even gotten that way here a couple times.
And the Steam thing is a big sore point right now, for the average user once you leave Steam it is not as user friendly as just running Windows.
Valve's marketing also isn't helping the situation in the slightest.
For the record it is great, they have done a very good job with proton and I am not diminishing that work.
But try to bring up this conversation on YouTube, reddit, or similar places and it becomes toxic very quickly. Even when presented with raw numbers. It has even gotten that way here a couple times.
And the Steam thing is a big sore point right now, for the average user once you leave Steam it is not as user friendly as just running Windows.
Valve's marketing also isn't helping the situation in the slightest.
It's just zealotry and tribalism. It's been a thing with Linux since I started using it back in 97 or whenever.
I'd say it's an inate property of all communities based around a given platform. It's not necessarily "wrong" either as obviously if someone is willing to use a platform, then they will also naturally be willing to overlook it's deficiencies.
The discord arrives not because they do not acknowledge the deficiencies but due to a difference in priorities, what one person values another may not.
It makes sense to me that their would be tension between people who want full control of their system & privacy in exchange for occasional performance cuts and unsupported anti cheats vs those that are comfortable completely giving up their privacy & control in exchange for occasional performance boosts and invasive anti cheats.
The discord arrives not because they do not acknowledge the deficiencies but due to a difference in priorities, what one person values another may not.
It makes sense to me that their would be tension between people who want full control of their system & privacy in exchange for occasional performance cuts and unsupported anti cheats vs those that are comfortable completely giving up their privacy & control in exchange for occasional performance boosts and invasive anti cheats.
It's wrong and always a problem when people start lying, either to themselves, others or both.
I agree there is nothing wrong and people advocating for their preferences, opinions, arguments, solutions, whatever.
However, when you get so attached that you need to start lying to say it's better or that the alternatives are worse, that's no longer rational and makes the people doing so no longer trustworthy.
This is true for all types of tribalism across all areas of society.
I agree there is nothing wrong and people advocating for their preferences, opinions, arguments, solutions, whatever.
However, when you get so attached that you need to start lying to say it's better or that the alternatives are worse, that's no longer rational and makes the people doing so no longer trustworthy.
This is true for all types of tribalism across all areas of society.
Interesting take, but what exactly are you talking about here? You are asserting that some people are lying but who? On what basis? Is this really as big a problem as you are making it out to be? (In the context of nerd platform wars?)
> You are asserting that some people are lying but who?
Anyone making clearly false claims, for example.
I had a recent discussion with a Linux devotee, for example, claiming gaming on Linux was basically as good as Windows and that Linux had full DirectX equivalents. Both things are false, the user knows they are false, but that user lied to themselves due to loyalty to their preferred platform.
Apple users do it so often, the term reality distortion field was invented to describe their behavior. Sony and Zboz fans do it as well. Not to mention people do it with everything, i.e. political parties.
Anyone making clearly false claims, for example.
I had a recent discussion with a Linux devotee, for example, claiming gaming on Linux was basically as good as Windows and that Linux had full DirectX equivalents. Both things are false, the user knows they are false, but that user lied to themselves due to loyalty to their preferred platform.
Apple users do it so often, the term reality distortion field was invented to describe their behavior. Sony and Zboz fans do it as well. Not to mention people do it with everything, i.e. political parties.
For me it is because I dont care about most negatives that are usually brought up. I need my os to get out of the way and be robust and W11 does that way better than Linux for me. I do have an Ubuntu Laptop and occasionally also try Linux in a VM or dual installation on my main desktop but it is always far more hassle than windows.
For me my windows setups are dedicated gaming devices, nothing more. Any general computing I do (with some random exceptions due to convenience) is on my Mac.
So for me the number one priority is performance and compatibility. Which as far as proton has come, using the LTSC version on Windows easily wins on compatibility (especially once you leave Steam) and in some cases wins on performance.
LTSC also drastically reduces the metrics sent back to Microsoft.
So for me the number one priority is performance and compatibility. Which as far as proton has come, using the LTSC version on Windows easily wins on compatibility (especially once you leave Steam) and in some cases wins on performance.
LTSC also drastically reduces the metrics sent back to Microsoft.
macOS does offer a nicer overall UX than Windows, but the amount of telemetry Apple machines constantly stream to home base is disturbing. And unlike windows, I don't know of a way to turn it off.
If you run Wireshark on any Mac you will observe the high volume of requests to Apple-owned IPs. Even when the machine is otherwise idle. It's creepy.
On the other hand, Linux machines don't default to sending telemetry. P.s. Ubuntu is an exception to this rule which is one reason I'll never use Ubuntu again (they've included telemetry and embedded ads in the past). Debian and Pop_os both work remarkably well for desktop use these days.
If you run Wireshark on any Mac you will observe the high volume of requests to Apple-owned IPs. Even when the machine is otherwise idle. It's creepy.
On the other hand, Linux machines don't default to sending telemetry. P.s. Ubuntu is an exception to this rule which is one reason I'll never use Ubuntu again (they've included telemetry and embedded ads in the past). Debian and Pop_os both work remarkably well for desktop use these days.
> macOS does offer a nicer overall UX than Windows,
Eh, does it? I find it to be incredibly unintuitive, and so do many people I see try to use it with no prior PC experience.
Eh, does it? I find it to be incredibly unintuitive, and so do many people I see try to use it with no prior PC experience.
It's hard to compete with what Win2k offered. That seems like it was the ultimate in intuitive, user-friendly, and stable.
Funnily enough, I ran 2003 and then 2008 server versions as my desktop for a long time. No cruft and great performance. Very easy to enable desktop stuff and disable server stuff also.
you just answered your own question, at least for gaming. the paid userbase for proton-based gaming needs to grow large enough to be taken seriously before most people can migrate.
Work. Adobe is standard (monopoly) in audiovisual production, graphic design snd DTP. Adobe is not working on linux.
Yes, its frustrating. But there is no competition.
Yes, its frustrating. But there is no competition.
For me, online multiplayer gaming. So now I have my Linux daily driver, and a gaming OS basically dual-booted.
Yeah, I ostensibly haven't switched back so I don't have to deal with anti-cheat issues, but if I'm really honest with myself I don't game nearly as much as I used to and when I do it's usually single player.
Yes but I understand that you might not want to cut off the possibility. I personally dual-boot, but for similar convenience reasons I have some of the games installed on both systems.
Even dual-booting is a bit of a pain, some of which I have solved by having a dedicated SSD for each OS. Windows sometimes misbehaves and it's easier to handle that if it has its own drive.
I just switched to Linux for gaming. So far most things have worked quite well FO4 and Horizon Dawn seem to have identical performance to windows.
Simcity 4 has issues. But i has issues on new PC's too.
Simcity 4 has issues. But i has issues on new PC's too.
Modded or vanilla FO4? I'm curious if modded works at all and how much of an additional hassle is it compared to windows (which, depending on how much you are adding, can be quite a bit of work anyway).
Current Steam vanilla version.
GOG games seem to be harder to get working.
There are some default mods bethesda recently gave away and some DLC i bought that haven't caused on issues.
No idea about third party stuff
Another indie game "Intergalactic fishing" doesn't run for me in windows, but does run on WINE .. which is hilarious.
GOG games seem to be harder to get working.
There are some default mods bethesda recently gave away and some DLC i bought that haven't caused on issues.
No idea about third party stuff
Another indie game "Intergalactic fishing" doesn't run for me in windows, but does run on WINE .. which is hilarious.
The new Forza game was not supported by the previous LTSC version for a long time so I wouldn’t say that it’s the most compatible version for gaming.
Which Forza and which LTSC version?
I have not had issues with Horizon 5 or the new Forza on my steam deck under Windows 10 LTSC 2021. I believe I played both at or near launch.
That is the first I have heard of a game not working on LTSC.
Edit:
My timeline is off, I did not try Horizon 5 on my steam deck until about a year after it came out since Horizon 5 predated the steam deck.
However worth pointing out that it is one example of a game not working on LTSC vs many examples on proton so I would argue it still Wins out on compatibility.
I have not had issues with Horizon 5 or the new Forza on my steam deck under Windows 10 LTSC 2021. I believe I played both at or near launch.
That is the first I have heard of a game not working on LTSC.
Edit:
My timeline is off, I did not try Horizon 5 on my steam deck until about a year after it came out since Horizon 5 predated the steam deck.
However worth pointing out that it is one example of a game not working on LTSC vs many examples on proton so I would argue it still Wins out on compatibility.
Horizon 5 did not work for me and many others on Windows 10 LTSC Version 1809 when it was the de-facto latest LTSC available. I'm not sure what feature was missing but it was working just fine with the latest Windows 10 Pro version available at that time. Of course things might differ now but I still wouldn't say that compatibility is big on LTSC when there's a high chance that a new game might be missing essential features which only get added in the next LTSC version.
See also: https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10LTSC/wiki/incompatibility
See also: https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10LTSC/wiki/incompatibility
Wouldn't W10 be better? No online account needed and there is still Windows Mixed Reality many VR games rely on.
I'm on W10 for now for largely this reason, but it's not future-proof. Support ends on Oct 10, 2025, and they'll almost certainly stop supporting it with some gaming-critical libraries and functionalities sooner than that.
When that happens, I'm going to do my damnedest to transition to Linux. I can already play the vast majority of games really well on my Steam Deck, so ideally I can recreate the same technology stack on my desktop and just have better hardware there.
When that happens, I'm going to do my damnedest to transition to Linux. I can already play the vast majority of games really well on my Steam Deck, so ideally I can recreate the same technology stack on my desktop and just have better hardware there.
Bazzite, Chimera and Nobara are trying to do the same thing on top of different mainstream distros if you don't want to do it yourself. For better hardware Nvidia Graphics issues are largely fixed with the new beta driver so by that time, it should be a good place.
That’s ultimately just playing the cat-and-mouse game with Microsoft. If LTSC becomes a commonly used trick to get local accounts, Microsoft will put even more barriers to get through. It’s not a game I’d want anyone to play.
I honestly would not be too worried about that happening.
LTSC is likely a small but critical part to Microsoft keeping Windows in control, being able to continue to deploy Windows in places that may have otherwise moved to Linux. Once an organization starts down that path than it opens the doors for other non windows systems. It also can't have too many restrictions put on how it runs and is activated or its value plummets.
The fact is the vast majority of users won't go down this path, it will always be the power users or those with power users to manage their computers.
But frankly, even if a significant portion (like say 10%) were to start using LTSC version. That still keeps Windows in a dominate position as far as the market and developer support goes. Which is a win for Microsoft.
LTSC is likely a small but critical part to Microsoft keeping Windows in control, being able to continue to deploy Windows in places that may have otherwise moved to Linux. Once an organization starts down that path than it opens the doors for other non windows systems. It also can't have too many restrictions put on how it runs and is activated or its value plummets.
The fact is the vast majority of users won't go down this path, it will always be the power users or those with power users to manage their computers.
But frankly, even if a significant portion (like say 10%) were to start using LTSC version. That still keeps Windows in a dominate position as far as the market and developer support goes. Which is a win for Microsoft.
> But frankly, even if a significant portion (like say 10%) were to start using LTSC version. That still keeps Windows in a dominate position [...]
You are talking about the 2012 version of Microsoft's vision for Windows. In 2024, they no longer go for these install bases. In this particular case, Linux has won any new entry in the embedded market, and they're mostly keeping their current clients happy with the LTSC version. I would be 0% surprised if Microsoft starts tightening the screws on those LTSC user to move them towards their cloud offerings.
Microsoft no longer wants an install base; what it wants in 2024 is logged-in Windows users. Then they can sell them subscriptions and hoover up all their data, mostly for ad purposes, and probably for LLM training sooner rather than later.
You are talking about the 2012 version of Microsoft's vision for Windows. In 2024, they no longer go for these install bases. In this particular case, Linux has won any new entry in the embedded market, and they're mostly keeping their current clients happy with the LTSC version. I would be 0% surprised if Microsoft starts tightening the screws on those LTSC user to move them towards their cloud offerings.
Microsoft no longer wants an install base; what it wants in 2024 is logged-in Windows users. Then they can sell them subscriptions and hoover up all their data, mostly for ad purposes, and probably for LLM training sooner rather than later.
LTSC 24h2 is technically supposed to be out but it's still not available on msdn sadly.
Are there trade-offs with this?
The main trade-off is that you don't get to enjoy the benefits of upgrading to Linux instead :^)
I have yet to have any issues with it and I switched full time to LTSC on multiple devices for about 2 years now, the only minor trade off is if something you rely on is not installed automatically like the Microsoft store.
So when you first launch the Xbox app it will tell you that there are things that need to be installed, but it gives a button to do exactly that.
You also don't get new features that Microsoft roles out, but I don't consider that a trade off and is instead a positive. Bonus I was able to un-install copilot completely from control panel on Windows 11 LTSC.
So when you first launch the Xbox app it will tell you that there are things that need to be installed, but it gives a button to do exactly that.
You also don't get new features that Microsoft roles out, but I don't consider that a trade off and is instead a positive. Bonus I was able to un-install copilot completely from control panel on Windows 11 LTSC.
> I even installed LTSC on my Steam Deck
For what purpose?
For what purpose?
Full compatibility with games, I never need to think or worry about wether or not an update will break compatibility with Proton. Something that had happened a couple times with Halo Infinite and others.
Not needing to worry about getting on the bad side of a developer like with Destiny 2.
Easily use stores that are not just Steam to hopefully discourage a monopoly that is currently largely on PC gaming.
If I want to run things like Discord, OBS, or whatever other thing I want running I don't have to jump through hoops.
Finally the ability to use Game Pass games natively.
Windows has become my primary driver on my Steam Deck. Does what I need it to do, play games. Some games even run better under 10LTSC compared to SteamOS.
Not needing to worry about getting on the bad side of a developer like with Destiny 2.
Easily use stores that are not just Steam to hopefully discourage a monopoly that is currently largely on PC gaming.
If I want to run things like Discord, OBS, or whatever other thing I want running I don't have to jump through hoops.
Finally the ability to use Game Pass games natively.
Windows has become my primary driver on my Steam Deck. Does what I need it to do, play games. Some games even run better under 10LTSC compared to SteamOS.
some games want kernel level rootkits ("anticheat"), some just block their DRM in proton, and if you want to use game pass PC, well, you need MS store.
Why not just use Win10 LTSC ?
The amount of people doing this was so vast that windows 10 ltsc stopped receiving updates when windows 11 was first announced and by happy coincidence is just ever so slightly too old now for the benefits versus just using linux with proton on steam.
I do not believe this is true.
Windows 10 LTSC will continue to get security improvements at least until next year depending on the LTSC version you have installed and up to 2032.
As far as it not getting a new cut version after the 2021 one, I feel like that is just normal practice? Does Microsoft normally cut a new version of their LTSC version on an older OS when they are working on the next version?
Was there even a need for a new 10 LTSC after 2021?
Windows 10 LTSC will continue to get security improvements at least until next year depending on the LTSC version you have installed and up to 2032.
As far as it not getting a new cut version after the 2021 one, I feel like that is just normal practice? Does Microsoft normally cut a new version of their LTSC version on an older OS when they are working on the next version?
Was there even a need for a new 10 LTSC after 2021?
LTSC is a fantastic solution if Windows is a need, but there is no getting around it that the only way you can use it, or most people, is via piracy.
You're ethically fine with it, but it's still a problem for many, even if purely due to legal concerns and not ethical ones.
I want to game as well, but thankfully most of what I want to run will run on Linux. GTA6 likely won't, and then I'll have to look at streaming with moonlight or something, or playing on a VM with GPU passthrough.
Qemu is making advances at allowing VMs to hide that they are VMs, so that might end up being a great solution.
You're ethically fine with it, but it's still a problem for many, even if purely due to legal concerns and not ethical ones.
I want to game as well, but thankfully most of what I want to run will run on Linux. GTA6 likely won't, and then I'll have to look at streaming with moonlight or something, or playing on a VM with GPU passthrough.
Qemu is making advances at allowing VMs to hide that they are VMs, so that might end up being a great solution.
It is worth putting out a very big caveat here that "piracy" in this sense is not downloading an Iso through BitTorrent when Microsoft provides the ISO for LTSC to freely download through your browser.
The 'piracy' element is running an activation script off of GitHub.
However IMO that is Microsoft problem and not mine for not providing a legal way for a normal consumer to get LTSC. They could make it another tier and charge more if they were inclined. I hate the idea of paying for privacy, but ethically I would be compelled to do so if the option was available to me.
As said in other comments, personally ethically the way I justify it is I already have a Windows 11 License and I am just installing a different version of 11. Microsoft still got the money.
Given that there is no torrenting and it is just a script you are running, I am legitimately curious about any legal ramifications.
> but thankfully most of what I want to run will run on Linux.
For me once I hit "most" and not "all" I asked myself why I was bothering, I was dual booting SteamOS and Windows but using Windows the vast majority of the time. Been debating recently on re-imaging and continuing to dual boot but solely to have SteamOS for firmware updates.
The 'piracy' element is running an activation script off of GitHub.
However IMO that is Microsoft problem and not mine for not providing a legal way for a normal consumer to get LTSC. They could make it another tier and charge more if they were inclined. I hate the idea of paying for privacy, but ethically I would be compelled to do so if the option was available to me.
As said in other comments, personally ethically the way I justify it is I already have a Windows 11 License and I am just installing a different version of 11. Microsoft still got the money.
Given that there is no torrenting and it is just a script you are running, I am legitimately curious about any legal ramifications.
> but thankfully most of what I want to run will run on Linux.
For me once I hit "most" and not "all" I asked myself why I was bothering, I was dual booting SteamOS and Windows but using Windows the vast majority of the time. Been debating recently on re-imaging and continuing to dual boot but solely to have SteamOS for firmware updates.
> The 'piracy' element is running an activation script off of GitHub.
You're modifying software against the terms of service to have functionality only offered by an entirely different license that costs substantially more.
Yeah, you're not downloading ISOs or using cracks but it is absolutely no less piracy.
> However IMO that is Microsoft problem and not mine for not providing a legal way for a normal consumer to get LTSC.
Sure, but that's their business decision and right. If you want it you can pay for it, just like if you want an expensive sportscar you have to pony up for that as well.
> Given that there is no torrenting and it is just a script you are running, I am legitimately curious about any legal ramifications.
For you individually, I'm sure you know they won't care, just as they already don't care about all the gamers with all the watermarked pirated versions of Windows.
You're more than likely absolutely safe. But it's still just as much piracy as downloading an ISO and using a crack, and you would be just as legally culpable.
> For me once I hit "most" and not "all" I asked myself why I was bothering,
Honestly it's because Windows is still your enemy. You can tame it, but you have to fight with it. Sure, you can get it pretty good, and you eliminate a lot of problems using the ltsc version, but you still don't own the software and they could still fuck with it and by extension you and one day there might not be a script to fix it.
Personally, I think it makes significantly more sense to keep windows around only to run the few games that won't work on Linux, not as a main OS. At this point, even the LTSC versions, are basically untrusted, hostile software.
Everyone's has different views on this though, balancing conveience and other needs, so it's not like there's an objective answer.
You're modifying software against the terms of service to have functionality only offered by an entirely different license that costs substantially more.
Yeah, you're not downloading ISOs or using cracks but it is absolutely no less piracy.
> However IMO that is Microsoft problem and not mine for not providing a legal way for a normal consumer to get LTSC.
Sure, but that's their business decision and right. If you want it you can pay for it, just like if you want an expensive sportscar you have to pony up for that as well.
> Given that there is no torrenting and it is just a script you are running, I am legitimately curious about any legal ramifications.
For you individually, I'm sure you know they won't care, just as they already don't care about all the gamers with all the watermarked pirated versions of Windows.
You're more than likely absolutely safe. But it's still just as much piracy as downloading an ISO and using a crack, and you would be just as legally culpable.
> For me once I hit "most" and not "all" I asked myself why I was bothering,
Honestly it's because Windows is still your enemy. You can tame it, but you have to fight with it. Sure, you can get it pretty good, and you eliminate a lot of problems using the ltsc version, but you still don't own the software and they could still fuck with it and by extension you and one day there might not be a script to fix it.
Personally, I think it makes significantly more sense to keep windows around only to run the few games that won't work on Linux, not as a main OS. At this point, even the LTSC versions, are basically untrusted, hostile software.
Everyone's has different views on this though, balancing conveience and other needs, so it's not like there's an objective answer.
I think 10LTSC is perfectly viable right now, I still run 10LTSC on my Steam Deck.
Right now on my desktop I have 10 LTSC, 11 LTSC, and 11 Pro installed and doing a bunch of benchmarks but still early on data (trying to be as thorough as possible).
I have had someone try to tell me that there is something in Windows 11 that makes it run better on newer processors, I have not been able to find any information on this.
Also theoretically at some point driver support or game support will diminish on 10.
Personally, I think if you are going to go for a new installation 11 likely may be the way to go for the best future compatibility. But 10 is still good.
Right now on my desktop I have 10 LTSC, 11 LTSC, and 11 Pro installed and doing a bunch of benchmarks but still early on data (trying to be as thorough as possible).
I have had someone try to tell me that there is something in Windows 11 that makes it run better on newer processors, I have not been able to find any information on this.
Also theoretically at some point driver support or game support will diminish on 10.
Personally, I think if you are going to go for a new installation 11 likely may be the way to go for the best future compatibility. But 10 is still good.
>I have had someone try to tell me that there is something in Windows 11 that makes it run better on newer processors, I have not been able to find any information on this.
Possibly they were referring to this:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/16959/intel-innovation-alder-...
Possibly they were referring to this:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/16959/intel-innovation-alder-...
That is it! I remember something about the scheduler.
Will need to do some more research and benchmarks on this personally and see if it is really much of an improvement or if the improvements are lost by any decrease in performance going from 10 to 11 (even on LTSC).
Will need to do some more research and benchmarks on this personally and see if it is really much of an improvement or if the improvements are lost by any decrease in performance going from 10 to 11 (even on LTSC).
I'm not sure it would make a difference on a Steam Deck, as E and P cores are an Intel thing
Most likely not, however I run LTSC on 4 different gaming setups. Steam Deck, Legion GO, and 2 desktops of various power for TV and desktop gaming. So I have a decent range of hardware to test these claims on.
The other aspect in the background is win10 is putting up a full screen warning about hitting EOL in Oct'25 while not giving older (~pre-2018) systems an official route to upgrade to anything supported besides buying a whole new system. For those that are content with the performance for desktop the scheduler doesn't really offer them anything. I'd love to see some form of OS survey in 2026 narrowed down to pre-2018 systems still online.
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Microsoft's end goal is "Windows as a subscription service". Has always been since Windows 10 times if not earlier.
All these little nasty anti-user bits stem directly from that.
All these little nasty anti-user bits stem directly from that.
I'm pretty confident, that Apple has the same goal. We are not there yet, but how else will they satisfy shareholders with ever-growing profits?
I highly doubt it, Apple has not charged for Mac for 10 years.
They have the profits from hardware and the upgrade cycle as new versions drop old hardware. I imagine if anything we will see a program like the iPhone upgrade program come to Mac. That would better fit their existing workflow anyways.
They have the profits from hardware and the upgrade cycle as new versions drop old hardware. I imagine if anything we will see a program like the iPhone upgrade program come to Mac. That would better fit their existing workflow anyways.
Apple is almost a subscription service. You just pay in huge installments once every 2-5 years, by replacing the entire device when the battery degrades or performance is starting to feel underwhelming.
I'm looking at replacing my MacBook, but it's from 2015. I think 2-5 years is a bit of an overstatement. PC laptops I've owned in the past have fared much worse over the same time period.
The lower end of the spectrum is for phones, going through daily charge/discharge cycles.
While they do a lot of things very well, desiging batteries, storage, and keyboards to be practically non-replaceable and denying any upgradeability (to upsell ludicrously overpriced storage at the initial purchase) is setting an upper limit on how long the device will remain useful for.
While they do a lot of things very well, desiging batteries, storage, and keyboards to be practically non-replaceable and denying any upgradeability (to upsell ludicrously overpriced storage at the initial purchase) is setting an upper limit on how long the device will remain useful for.
> The lower end of the spectrum is for phones, going through daily charge/discharge cycles.
With iPhones you can replace the battery for a small fraction of the cost of a new phone. Plenty of people are using 5+ year old phones without doing so, it really depends on how much time you spend on the device per day and if you’re recharging mid day. Deep discharges drastically shorten lifespan, but again just get a new battery.
With iPhones you can replace the battery for a small fraction of the cost of a new phone. Plenty of people are using 5+ year old phones without doing so, it really depends on how much time you spend on the device per day and if you’re recharging mid day. Deep discharges drastically shorten lifespan, but again just get a new battery.
The true cost of replacing an iPhone battery isn't the quoted dollar amount.
It's the cost of being without your phone for an indeterminate period of time if you have to ship it to Apple for the battery replacement due to not living near an Apple Store.
It's the cost of being without your phone for an indeterminate period of time if you have to ship it to Apple for the battery replacement due to not living near an Apple Store.
Best Buy is an authorized service provider. It takes an hour or so, maybe two if they're busy. It's much quicker than switching to a new phone.
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/iphone-battery-replacement/5634...
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/iphone-battery-replacement/5634...
You don’t need to go to an Apple Store. However being somewhere near an Apple Store within a ~2 year window covers most people.
Further, replacing a phone is itself painful so there’s no avoiding any inconvenience here.
Further, replacing a phone is itself painful so there’s no avoiding any inconvenience here.
I have an iPhone X. When the battery degraded, I sent it in, the battery and the speaker is replaced, the latter free of charge. I even didn't know that my speaker was damaged to begin with.
The service rep said that newer batteries last longer because they're newer tech (I laughed internally), but it's going strong for 4 (5?) years now, and it's at 83%, so I had to eat my hat about not believing her.
The service rep said that newer batteries last longer because they're newer tech (I laughed internally), but it's going strong for 4 (5?) years now, and it's at 83%, so I had to eat my hat about not believing her.
Do you trust the quoted capacity figures, though? Or are they there to convince customers that everything's fine, the battery hasn't degraded, it's just software updates and usage patterns that have affected battery life?
Got an almost 4yr old 12 Pro that claims 85%, but doesn't feel like it's holding that much charge, feels like it's due a replacement. Would have done it myself if it was an easy screwdriver-only job rather than requiring heat and special tools.
I'm guessing that internally the capacity starts at somewhat above 100%, to ensure for example that older stock still reports 100% when sold, and the actual drop in capacity could be a fair bit more than the reported figure?
Got an almost 4yr old 12 Pro that claims 85%, but doesn't feel like it's holding that much charge, feels like it's due a replacement. Would have done it myself if it was an easy screwdriver-only job rather than requiring heat and special tools.
I'm guessing that internally the capacity starts at somewhat above 100%, to ensure for example that older stock still reports 100% when sold, and the actual drop in capacity could be a fair bit more than the reported figure?
> Do you trust the quoted capacity figures, though?
Actually yes. Because even at 83%, my iPhone can last longer than its original battery's brand-new capacity. Also, I'm using Macs for ~15 years now and Coconut Battery's battery reports (which just interfaces with macOS battery information features) were always spot-on.
> but doesn't feel like it's holding that much charge, feels like it's due a replacement.
Actually, an iPhone's daily endurance depends on two things: Network connectivity & quality, and the apps you use. WiFi uses way less battery than cellular to begin with, and some applications "performance improvements and bug fixes" means "we have improved the performance of tracking you while using the app, and fixed the bugs about misreporting usage data". Applications like Instagram are so optimized at tracking its users, it drains my battery faster and heats my phone better than some games.
> to ensure for example that older stock still reports 100% when sold...
Low self discharge batteries are borderline magic. A low-discharge Li-Ion battery sitting at ~40% can sit there for years, if the cell is good. A low discharge Ni-MH battery can sit at ~90% for a decade. I recently opened a new blister of Eneloop AA batteries which were sitting there for a couple of years. All of them were at ~95% charge.
Actually yes. Because even at 83%, my iPhone can last longer than its original battery's brand-new capacity. Also, I'm using Macs for ~15 years now and Coconut Battery's battery reports (which just interfaces with macOS battery information features) were always spot-on.
> but doesn't feel like it's holding that much charge, feels like it's due a replacement.
Actually, an iPhone's daily endurance depends on two things: Network connectivity & quality, and the apps you use. WiFi uses way less battery than cellular to begin with, and some applications "performance improvements and bug fixes" means "we have improved the performance of tracking you while using the app, and fixed the bugs about misreporting usage data". Applications like Instagram are so optimized at tracking its users, it drains my battery faster and heats my phone better than some games.
> to ensure for example that older stock still reports 100% when sold...
Low self discharge batteries are borderline magic. A low-discharge Li-Ion battery sitting at ~40% can sit there for years, if the cell is good. A low discharge Ni-MH battery can sit at ~90% for a decade. I recently opened a new blister of Eneloop AA batteries which were sitting there for a couple of years. All of them were at ~95% charge.
Why not just change the battery?
Because it's been made intentionally difficult, with significant risk of further damaging the product you're trying to repair. And there's no official supply of replacements.
A battery change shouldn't require heat guns, special suction/clamp tools, or adhesive-dissolving chemicals.
It also shouldn't require being without your device for an unknown period of time to send it in for service.
A battery change shouldn't require heat guns, special suction/clamp tools, or adhesive-dissolving chemicals.
It also shouldn't require being without your device for an unknown period of time to send it in for service.
Ok, but a battery replacement is possible. You don't just throw it away.
I've gotten battery replacements on various iPhones, iPads and Macbooks and it's a pretty straightforward processes.
I've gotten battery replacements on various iPhones, iPads and Macbooks and it's a pretty straightforward processes.
Reading through bluescrn's comments, it seems like anything short of "I can easily replace the battery myself" is unacceptable. Would I like to be able to replace the battery in my Apple devices myself? Absolutely. Is it an unreasonable amount of money and effort to have the Apple Store do it? Not at all. Getting them to replace the battery is no big deal. If there's something to complain about, it's that they (probably intentionally) don't do a good job advertising their battery service.
> Reading through bluescrn's comments, it seems like anything short of "I can easily replace the battery myself" is unacceptable.
Which is pretty reasonable. Giving up little bits of a control at a time is how we end up with no control at all.
Which is pretty reasonable. Giving up little bits of a control at a time is how we end up with no control at all.
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There’s just no way very many people would pay for a Mac upgrade program. The iPhone one works by having you pay the monthly installment price for the phone forever. That’s usually in the $30-40/month range, which many people can stomach in exchange for guaranteed new phones every year. But Mac installment prices are $200+ a month. There just isn’t a market for a laptop subscription that costs as much as car insurance.
A Mac Upgrade program doesn't have to be the same upgrade cycle, same if they went the route of doing an iPad upgrade program.
It would also help minimize the need to try to future proof your choice. I know when I go to buy a Mac I often way over spec since I am planning for at least 3 or 4 years. That conversation is completely different if I know I am getting an upgrade in 1 or 2 years.
Meanwhile if the Mac Upgrade Program could be, idk a 2 year upgrade plan. Looking at the cheapest 16" M3 Max MBP. Right now that is $291.58 month for 12 months.
If a Mac Upgrade Plan did the same timeline as iPhone where you paid over 2 years but could upgrade after a year that would be about $147.28.
But it could likely be a 3 or 4 year timeline and be even cheaper.
If we look at the lower end it gets even cheaper with the cheapest 16" MBP could be $104 a month. The cheapest 14" MPB could be $66.5 a month.
Keeps going cheaper if you look at the Air. I feel like at that price the market very much exists when the top iPhone is $74.91 a month.
The question is if the numbers make sense on Apple's side.
It would also help minimize the need to try to future proof your choice. I know when I go to buy a Mac I often way over spec since I am planning for at least 3 or 4 years. That conversation is completely different if I know I am getting an upgrade in 1 or 2 years.
Meanwhile if the Mac Upgrade Program could be, idk a 2 year upgrade plan. Looking at the cheapest 16" M3 Max MBP. Right now that is $291.58 month for 12 months.
If a Mac Upgrade Plan did the same timeline as iPhone where you paid over 2 years but could upgrade after a year that would be about $147.28.
But it could likely be a 3 or 4 year timeline and be even cheaper.
If we look at the lower end it gets even cheaper with the cheapest 16" MBP could be $104 a month. The cheapest 14" MPB could be $66.5 a month.
Keeps going cheaper if you look at the Air. I feel like at that price the market very much exists when the top iPhone is $74.91 a month.
The question is if the numbers make sense on Apple's side.
They charge up front with their margins.
As long as Apple charges > 1k $ for a 2TB SSD, a 5x markup on competition, they'll be fine.
Apple is a hardware company first, then an App Store rent seeker, and a software company third.
[1] https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/mac/accessories/storage
Apple is a hardware company first, then an App Store rent seeker, and a software company third.
[1] https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/mac/accessories/storage
I am not as cynical as others about the compromises Apple is willing to make to grow, but it is worth noting that Tim sure does talk about services a lot: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/05/apple-reports-second-...
The Apple storage tax also creates #DongleLife, as port quotas discourage dedicating a port to external storage like the tiny Ultra Fit, https://www.amazon.ca/SanDisk-128GB-Ultra-Flash-Drive/dp/B07....
> how else will they satisfy shareholders with ever-growing profits?
Typing as a service, with characters billed by the keystroke.
A mixture of Wheel of Fortune and Scrabble rules apply. Vowels are free, but rare consonants or letter combinations carry a premium.
/s
Typing as a service, with characters billed by the keystroke.
A mixture of Wheel of Fortune and Scrabble rules apply. Vowels are free, but rare consonants or letter combinations carry a premium.
/s
I purchased the new ARM laptop Surface. It’s wild how they attempt to optimize Windows.
>Ads in Outlook. Want to remove? $2 a month.
>Want to use Windows productivity software? $100 a year.
>Want to use more copilot features? $20 a month.
>Want to game? Please use our subscription Xbox service.
Etc etc.
>Ads in Outlook. Want to remove? $2 a month.
>Want to use Windows productivity software? $100 a year.
>Want to use more copilot features? $20 a month.
>Want to game? Please use our subscription Xbox service.
Etc etc.
>Ads in Outlook. Want to remove? $2 a month.
Don't let Microsoft touch your email, they're terrible at it.
>Want to use Windows productivity software? $100 a year.
Microsoft Office isn't part of Windows, and Office as a Service is a sign of the times, but OpenLibreOffice.org works ok and the price is better. People seem to like Google Docs even though it's terrible.
>Want to use more copilot features? $20 a month.
Ok, but how much for them to not ask me to use it?
>Want to game? Please use our subscription Xbox service.
You certainly don't need gamepass to game, you can just buy games instead of paying a monthly subscription for access to a selection of games. On the consoles, you need to pay for (most) online features, but not for PC. Although I don't know how many games run well on ARM Windows...
Don't let Microsoft touch your email, they're terrible at it.
>Want to use Windows productivity software? $100 a year.
Microsoft Office isn't part of Windows, and Office as a Service is a sign of the times, but OpenLibreOffice.org works ok and the price is better. People seem to like Google Docs even though it's terrible.
>Want to use more copilot features? $20 a month.
Ok, but how much for them to not ask me to use it?
>Want to game? Please use our subscription Xbox service.
You certainly don't need gamepass to game, you can just buy games instead of paying a monthly subscription for access to a selection of games. On the consoles, you need to pay for (most) online features, but not for PC. Although I don't know how many games run well on ARM Windows...
Sincere question: are those examples real, or hyperbole?
Most of those are essentially hyperbole.
The ads in Outlook are if you're using the free @outlook.com email address. I'm using it with a Zoho email account and I haven't seen ads.
Windows productivity software? Office? Obviously, it is a paid software suite. Always has been. No surprise they're not giving it away. It is not like this is some new thing behind a paywall suddenly. Sure, back in the day it was pretty common for an average home PC to come with at least some version of Microsoft Works, but technically that was an OEM-licensed basic productivity software suite, not actually free. In the end it was just that Dell, HP, Compaq, or whoever was paying for it to put it on the list of out of the box features.
More Copilot features for $20 a month? It is essentially a custom flavor of OpenAI with some more hooks and context. It is no surprise a hosted AI service that normally costs $20/mo continues to cost $20/mo.
You don't need Xbox Game Pass to play games in Windows. Steam, GOG, etc. all still work perfectly fine without it. Game Pass is all about subscribing to a lot of games, including many AAA $60+ games. Let me know when Apple Music and Apple TV+ goes completely free.
It is like arguing "Want to listen to music on an iPhone? Gotta pay for Apple Music. Want to watch videos on your Macbook? Need to pay for Apple TV+ streaming service. Want to send an email? Gotta pay for an iCloud subscription. Want to use headphones with your Apple device? Guess you have to buy Airpods."
The ads in Outlook are if you're using the free @outlook.com email address. I'm using it with a Zoho email account and I haven't seen ads.
Windows productivity software? Office? Obviously, it is a paid software suite. Always has been. No surprise they're not giving it away. It is not like this is some new thing behind a paywall suddenly. Sure, back in the day it was pretty common for an average home PC to come with at least some version of Microsoft Works, but technically that was an OEM-licensed basic productivity software suite, not actually free. In the end it was just that Dell, HP, Compaq, or whoever was paying for it to put it on the list of out of the box features.
More Copilot features for $20 a month? It is essentially a custom flavor of OpenAI with some more hooks and context. It is no surprise a hosted AI service that normally costs $20/mo continues to cost $20/mo.
You don't need Xbox Game Pass to play games in Windows. Steam, GOG, etc. all still work perfectly fine without it. Game Pass is all about subscribing to a lot of games, including many AAA $60+ games. Let me know when Apple Music and Apple TV+ goes completely free.
It is like arguing "Want to listen to music on an iPhone? Gotta pay for Apple Music. Want to watch videos on your Macbook? Need to pay for Apple TV+ streaming service. Want to send an email? Gotta pay for an iCloud subscription. Want to use headphones with your Apple device? Guess you have to buy Airpods."
> The ads in Outlook are if you're using the free @outlook.com email address. I'm using it with a Zoho email account and I haven't seen ads.
Not true. It’s baked into the default mail client (outlook). Outlook is now the default mail client replacing mail.
Not true. It’s baked into the default mail client (outlook). Outlook is now the default mail client replacing mail.
I'm using the baked-in free Outlook client right now (not the paid Office version) with both a free Outlook.com email and a Zoho email. The free Outlook.com email does show ads. The Exchange synced Zoho email isn't showing any ads.
Good question. Unfortunately it’s real.
I knew a guy who worked at Microsoft and was sending me NT 5 (later called Windows 2000) alphas to try out. Even then, the goal was to have an electric bill, a gas bill, and a "Bill" bill.
I had to get around this last week during a vm install.
Shift+F10, OOBE\BYPASSNRO, Shift+F10, ipconfig /release, install, ipconfig /renew.
That's a lot of work for the average person and it's only a matter of time before they disable that command.
Shift+F10, OOBE\BYPASSNRO, Shift+F10, ipconfig /release, install, ipconfig /renew.
That's a lot of work for the average person and it's only a matter of time before they disable that command.
People will ask me why I'm 'torturing' myself with Linux while their preferred OS requires inputting the Konami code just to install properly.
It's like there's a memory of configuring xorg.conf or wpa_supplicant that just won't go away even when that stuff has Just Worked for 15 years. Even Nixos (which isn't at all a noob friendly distribution) has a desktop installer where you just click next like 5 times.
Most people just put their Microsoft account and are done with it. It installs fine.
Don't ask me how I know this, but you can also bypass the MS account requirement by putting in a very profane and insulting-to-Microsoft email address for the sign in.
I tried this and other suggested commands while setting up my windows 11 laptop last year, to no avail. It refused to budge until connected to the internet. Luckily, I was on an airplane with internet that required payment. I let it connect to the wifi and, to my surprise, it relented by allowing me to create a local account.
I am curious if there is a way to simulate this setup in a home network for when I need to set up my next computer.
I am curious if there is a way to simulate this setup in a home network for when I need to set up my next computer.
Just unplug the internet from your router, problem solved.
not sure if it's true (i haven't tried installing anything later than 23h2 i think), but i heard that oobe\bypassnro doesn't even work anymore
https://x.com/TheBobPony/status/1797517797624598988
https://x.com/TheBobPony/status/1797517797624598988
I did it yesterday on a brand new Surface 7 Copilot+ Laptop (such a dumb name…).
It still works as of June 21st. Did it on a new laptop that came with W11 Home.
I'm not a daily driver of windows, but I keep it installed on 1 box for optionality and to act as a beafy steam streaming box. Its frustrating enough to fight through the microsoft account stuff in the more recent versions, but the thing that pisses me off the most is their insistence on adding and/or re-enabling things _on every update_. I dont login often but when I do theres yet another service enabled or re-enabled on startup that I need to remove. Its the most frustrating game of whack-a-mole ever.
Dont even get me started on trying to do the same with my kids accounts on the same box. I suppose group policies are probably the answer but it shouldn't be this hard, and it shouldn't be this frustrating.
Dont even get me started on trying to do the same with my kids accounts on the same box. I suppose group policies are probably the answer but it shouldn't be this hard, and it shouldn't be this frustrating.
I've been using Microsoft accounts on Windows desktops for the last 5 years or so. The Minecraft change was probably the main push, now I know why they spent a billion dollars on that.
When you've got a bunch of desktops and no Windows domain controller it's a good feature. Makes login and synching work pretty well. There hasn't been a visible downside compared to local logins, though not enough upsides for Microsoft to push it so hard.
I use the "Microsoft Family Safety" features for limiting application usage and daily login times. This is the only real benefit I've gotten, but it's a good one. Don't have an Xbox but I hear some nice features for that were messed up recently.
When you've got a bunch of desktops and no Windows domain controller it's a good feature. Makes login and synching work pretty well. There hasn't been a visible downside compared to local logins, though not enough upsides for Microsoft to push it so hard.
I use the "Microsoft Family Safety" features for limiting application usage and daily login times. This is the only real benefit I've gotten, but it's a good one. Don't have an Xbox but I hear some nice features for that were messed up recently.
I switched my gaming/ai pc from windows to linux few months ago, and I have to say gaming for linux is very doable now, I only had few issues with battle.net but now that its setup it works fine.
And not to mention all torch and cuda stuff works just fine.
I wrote a post about it recently: https://punkx.org/jackdoe/linux-desktop.html and using it few more months I can only say that the experience is even better. I even did dist and everything kept working. So if you are thinking of giving linux a chance, now is a good time :)
My daughter's school is a "Microsoft school", and its basically forbidden to be with non Windows laptop.. even though everything works fine on macos/linux etc, even the safe exam browser.
I have never been involved in her school's policies, but this is just ridiculous. The way Microsoft claws their ways into schools and governments is just brilliant. There is a mix of incompetence, corruptions and people's people fear of being fired, and sunk cost fallacy, and its just deadlocked.
And not to mention all torch and cuda stuff works just fine.
I wrote a post about it recently: https://punkx.org/jackdoe/linux-desktop.html and using it few more months I can only say that the experience is even better. I even did dist and everything kept working. So if you are thinking of giving linux a chance, now is a good time :)
My daughter's school is a "Microsoft school", and its basically forbidden to be with non Windows laptop.. even though everything works fine on macos/linux etc, even the safe exam browser.
I have never been involved in her school's policies, but this is just ridiculous. The way Microsoft claws their ways into schools and governments is just brilliant. There is a mix of incompetence, corruptions and people's people fear of being fired, and sunk cost fallacy, and its just deadlocked.
I did the same thing, I built my first new computer in years and was so annoyed at all the advertising in Windows I went full Linux for the first time in over a decade. I specifically went with an AMD GPU (7800XT) as well to avoid how wonky Nvidia is.
Works really well, the only real issue is anti-cheat but I've just decided to play those games on console instead.
Works really well, the only real issue is anti-cheat but I've just decided to play those games on console instead.
I only have a windows machine for gaming... Eyes on Valve as they March towards Linux being a first class gaming platform.
I recently took my windows desktop apart and put the graphics card into my home server.
Used PCIe pass through with proxmox to create a dedicated Linux VM that just hosts my steam library, and stream games to my steam deck which is plugged into my keyboard/monitor/mouse.
It works great! And I can use the deck as a normal PC for web browsing/slack/discord etc.
There’s nothing I need windows for anymore thankfully.
It works great! And I can use the deck as a normal PC for web browsing/slack/discord etc.
There’s nothing I need windows for anymore thankfully.
It's pretty dang close. The only games I've had problems with in recent years were non-steam.
Once Overwatch died and everything I was playing was in Steam I found myself rebooting into windows a lot less often.
Getting your hardware working right is still the biggest problem. The games work great, occasionally audio/video driver issues necessitate some fiddling. (advantage to the Deck is that this goes away.)
Getting your hardware working right is still the biggest problem. The games work great, occasionally audio/video driver issues necessitate some fiddling. (advantage to the Deck is that this goes away.)
I've been daily driving (and gaming on) Linux for 2+ years now.I still keep a Windows 10 install around to run games which I can't get to work in Linux, but those are fairly rare. I spend 95% of my gaming time in Linux and, the vast majority of that time it "just works" without any problems. I highly encourage you to try it out!
It is Windows gaming on top of Linux kernel.
Most importantly, it's away from most Windows userland, with cloud accounts, licenses, ads, and other unwanted stuff.
Running software written by game studios using Windows userland.
I don't see how that's relevant. The game studios can use whatever OS they want. It's not about "windows was never involved", it's about "I'm not subject to their BS"
It is being delusional, that is how relevant it happens to be.
Delusional about what?
The Windows API is just that: an API. An interface. Who cares whether it's implemented by Windows or Linux or whatever else?
The Windows API is just that: an API. An interface. Who cares whether it's implemented by Windows or Linux or whatever else?
Keep believing that, it did wonders for OS/2.
IDK, the original Doom was largely created on a NeXT computer, with everything different from x86 and DOS.
It was an explosive hit of DOS-based PC gaming market nevertheless.
It was an explosive hit of DOS-based PC gaming market nevertheless.
The tooling was created on NeXTSTEP, the game engine was on MS-DOS, using Watcom C/C++ and 4GW DOS extender, not UNIX running on MS-DOS.
It's so far behind though. Linux still doesn't support VRR or HDR.
I have had both freesync and gsync workingwith no fuss for literal years. First with a 1070 and then with a 6800xt. I have never owned an HDR monitor so I can't personally speak to how well that works, but apparently it works just fine on the steam deck.
Even if it didn't, the number of people for whom HDR support is a make or break feature is likely not very high. Non developers use linux daily with the steam deck. I set up my mom with my xps 15 with Ubuntu on it when her laptop mobo died. While she wasn't a huge fan of having to learn a new UI, she was able to use it without issue for facebook/email/netflix/taxes/online banking for a few months until a good deal on a replacement came up and I got my laptop back.
I don't think if you are objective you can call linux so far behind windows. They are on par, each has their own annoyances and strengths, but for the average person they are just web browsing machines anyway.
Even if it didn't, the number of people for whom HDR support is a make or break feature is likely not very high. Non developers use linux daily with the steam deck. I set up my mom with my xps 15 with Ubuntu on it when her laptop mobo died. While she wasn't a huge fan of having to learn a new UI, she was able to use it without issue for facebook/email/netflix/taxes/online banking for a few months until a good deal on a replacement came up and I got my laptop back.
I don't think if you are objective you can call linux so far behind windows. They are on par, each has their own annoyances and strengths, but for the average person they are just web browsing machines anyway.
HDR is coming. The OLED steam deck supports it, for example.
I'm on Fedora 40 KDE, both VRR and HDR are supported.
I switched to Linux earlier this year. I was a little worried about which games wouldn't work, and I didn't need to worry.
The Steam client works just fine, although I do have to "force compatibility" and choose Proton. So far the games have played fine, including big games like Cyberpunk 2077.
For non-Steam, I'm using the Heroic Game Launcher, and it works great. I'm not missing any games, and I certainly don't miss the Windows BS.
The Steam client works just fine, although I do have to "force compatibility" and choose Proton. So far the games have played fine, including big games like Cyberpunk 2077.
For non-Steam, I'm using the Heroic Game Launcher, and it works great. I'm not missing any games, and I certainly don't miss the Windows BS.
Yes. Gaming, app development / testing for Windows, Powerpoint use (cloud powerpoint was one of the most atrocious experiences ever when I tried it.) It's down to three use cases. Everything else happens on Linux.
[deleted]
I'll ask here since I'm sure theres experience in the audience: it looks like theres no good answers for roblox on non-windows [1]? How about Minecraft Bedrock? Roblox and minecraft are the only things I really need to support in order to remove the windows install from my network.
[1] - https://vinegarhq.org/Home/rol_faq.html#what-alternatives-do...
[1] - https://vinegarhq.org/Home/rol_faq.html#what-alternatives-do...
Unfortunately it's not possible on Linux, at least not natively. I've been there before and dual-boot windows out of exactly that reason.
You can, however, use GPU passthrough and a Windows virtual machine. Another method is by using an Android emulator, though that has significant performance and QOL sacrifices attached to it.
You can, however, use GPU passthrough and a Windows virtual machine. Another method is by using an Android emulator, though that has significant performance and QOL sacrifices attached to it.
It sounded like the VM was a little more finicky than I'm used to so I was trying not to go there, but I'm not super worried about performance. Its for my kids and the computer is decent. Maybe I'll just remove this computer from the family rotation and call it a day. We got plenty of other devices they can game on, including a laptop that dual-boots macOS and windows. I stay out of that windows install entirely, so who knows what junk has accumulated at this point.
VMs are easier than ever now and those simple games like won't be upset they are running in a VM. Bonus is you can have snapshots and always restore to a working state no matter what the kids do to it.
OK I'll give it a go. It would be really nice to get everything on base-linux rather than needing this one machine to go through WSL.
I had a link I wanted to give you, one of the privacy distros had a whole guide on hiding the fact that programs were running in a vm from programs, but I can't find it right now. If I find it I'll post it again.
Otherwise this[0] link might be useful. Completely agree about it shouldn't being necessary and would be nice if it wasn't.
[0] https://forums.unraid.net/topic/90111-hide-os-vm-status/
Edit: Actually, I found some more links, these are what I have saved as soon I want to attempt making a Windows VM that doesn't know it's a VM. I hope these help:
How to Emulate a TPM 2.0 Module on LibVirt/QEMU - https://www.smoothnet.org/qemu-tpm/
How to Install virtio Drivers on KVM-QEMU Windows Virtual Machines - https://linuxhint.com/install_virtio_drivers_kvm_qemu_window...
Hiding Virtual machine status from guest operating system - https://superuser.com/a/1389159
The below are self-explanatory from the URL.
https://serverfault.com/questions/727347/solidworks-activati...
https://www.kicksecure.com/wiki/System_identity_camouflage
https://www.kicksecure.com/wiki/CPUID
https://www.whonix.org/wiki/VM_Fingerprinting
https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Protocol-Leak-Protection_and_Fin...
Otherwise this[0] link might be useful. Completely agree about it shouldn't being necessary and would be nice if it wasn't.
[0] https://forums.unraid.net/topic/90111-hide-os-vm-status/
Edit: Actually, I found some more links, these are what I have saved as soon I want to attempt making a Windows VM that doesn't know it's a VM. I hope these help:
How to Emulate a TPM 2.0 Module on LibVirt/QEMU - https://www.smoothnet.org/qemu-tpm/
How to Install virtio Drivers on KVM-QEMU Windows Virtual Machines - https://linuxhint.com/install_virtio_drivers_kvm_qemu_window...
Hiding Virtual machine status from guest operating system - https://superuser.com/a/1389159
The below are self-explanatory from the URL.
https://serverfault.com/questions/727347/solidworks-activati...
https://www.kicksecure.com/wiki/System_identity_camouflage
https://www.kicksecure.com/wiki/CPUID
https://www.whonix.org/wiki/VM_Fingerprinting
https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Protocol-Leak-Protection_and_Fin...
Awesome, thanks!
Roblox isn't a simple game anymore. They have a new anticheat (Byfron) that detects virtual machines and refuses to start.
It's still comparatively very simple compared to stuff like CoD. Qemu has made an advancement on being able to hide that you are in a vm. Byfron is likely only targeted at Parallels, hyperv and vmware. If you try it with qemu and follow the steps to make the vm undetectable as a vm it will probably work fine.
Minecraft Java Edition runs way smoother under Linux for some reason. It also supports mod packs, which is an endless source of renewable fun once the base game has gotten tiring. Give it a whirl, I don't miss Bedrock edition at all. Everyone on Java Edition can play together regardless of OS, where Bedrock basically requires everyone to be either on Windows or Console
Yeah well its for my elementary age kids so Im not really looking at coaching their friends on how to move to java and why : )
My hope is that I will equip them with the knowledge to fight that battle for me
My hope is that I will equip them with the knowledge to fight that battle for me
My son was using vinegar and then stopped working as others said. I can't be happier after many people is exposing sketchy practices taking place in Roblox and even worse with minors. Ludopathy triggering ones for example.
Minecraft: Bedrock Edition from Google Play https://flathub.org/apps/io.mrarm.mcpelauncher
I wouldn't mind if Microsoft didn't keep breaking Windows PIN and Windows Hello.
Enabled it on a private PC but a different account (a work one) owns the Office license, and now Windows knows that there is an account that owns the Windows license and a different account that owns the Office license.
Result? All kinds of fun that looks like this https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/window... and has many many recommended answers, of which none worked.
What did work, was removing the work account via Accounts > Work or School, and falling back to a local account and password for Windows. At least I can sign in to the machine again.
Enabled it on a private PC but a different account (a work one) owns the Office license, and now Windows knows that there is an account that owns the Windows license and a different account that owns the Office license.
Result? All kinds of fun that looks like this https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/window... and has many many recommended answers, of which none worked.
What did work, was removing the work account via Accounts > Work or School, and falling back to a local account and password for Windows. At least I can sign in to the machine again.
Keep in mind this article is kind of clickbait:
>the instructions on how to do the latter appeared on June 12, 2024, then disappeared on June 17, 2024.
The information was only ever published for 5 days.
>the instructions on how to do the latter appeared on June 12, 2024, then disappeared on June 17, 2024.
The information was only ever published for 5 days.
[deleted]
So the title is accurate. MS did remove the information
The only Microsoft account I have is my 20 year old hotmail that has an appropriate name for a 16 year old who discovered the internet.
If I can't make a local account, I will not use it.
If I can't make a local account, I will not use it.
I have a relatively recent Microsoft account, but at this point I refuse to even type it into my Windows computer. Given their user-hostile posture, I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to have a keystroke logger listening for me typing my MS account into some other software. Then, it could pop up with "Surprise! We just upgraded your local account to this Microsoft account that we just saw you type in! Now you have to log in with your Microsoft account. Gotcha, sucker!"
I haven't dug into it, but I have a (personal) win10 machine that is used for a combination of gaming and some of my dev work (visual studio & .net). I recently needed to install excel on this machine, and used my work account. I believed I was only logging into MS office, but now that machine has printers added that are added on my machine at the office, so somehow logging into MS Office but on a local windows10 account added printers from a different network. I'm not surprised, but definitely demonstrating that there's potential for information leakage if using their online accounts.
> I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to have a keystroke logger listening
Wasn't their one included in the pre-release version of Windows 11 until public outcry about the "telemetry" microsoft was phoning home with?
See also: Recall
Wasn't their one included in the pre-release version of Windows 11 until public outcry about the "telemetry" microsoft was phoning home with?
See also: Recall
It's very possible. I've honestly stopped counting the ways Microsoft is attacking my computer and network through Windows. At this point I treat the entire OS as adversarial, and go so far as isolating my few Windows machines onto their own VLAN where they can do the least damage.
Microsoft appears to be doing everything it can to ensure the majority of power users abandon Windows and switch to Linux desktop.
Once Win10 stops receiving security updates, I'm unlikely to bother installiny Windows 11. I don't really need it, as most games work fine thanks to the Valve Steam efforts.
It's kind of sad, I've always had at least one Windows machine as my primary desktop since 1998.
Once Win10 stops receiving security updates, I'm unlikely to bother installiny Windows 11. I don't really need it, as most games work fine thanks to the Valve Steam efforts.
It's kind of sad, I've always had at least one Windows machine as my primary desktop since 1998.
There are ways how to create local account during Windows installation. It worked for me few months ago.
https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-set-up-microsoft-windows...
https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-set-up-microsoft-windows...
If someone is looking for a Windows-replacement Linux machine, I'd like to plug Zorin OS. It's Ubuntu-based, and the most seamless out of the box experience I had with Linux. I just installed my stuff from the GUI software center and it was good to go.
This is great. The sooner MSFT kills itself in this way, the sooner major institutions who are tired of this can switch to alternatives.
Only consumer version of Windows (Home and Pro) have the Microsoft Account requirement.
Pro can still get around it, as Pro is not actually a consumer edition. To get around it with business editions of Windows you select the option to add the computer to a domain. The domain join process doesn't happen during OOBE, so you're prompted to make a local account. Then you can just carry on without joining a domain.
Home & Pro can get around it with OOBE\bypassnro and not being connected to the net. Then you get the local account option.
For now
What about macos? Is it easier to install and use without an account?
Yes. During setup, there’s an explicit “no account” option.
Microsoft loves pushing people to buy macOS devices it would seem.
Windows really does have the potential to be ideal for professionals, the things macOS does that make it better are all small but Microsoft just seems to paramount on sabotaging their operating system.
I really feel sorry for OEMs that really don't have a choice but to ship Windows and have to stomach this shit being associated with their products.
Windows really does have the potential to be ideal for professionals, the things macOS does that make it better are all small but Microsoft just seems to paramount on sabotaging their operating system.
I really feel sorry for OEMs that really don't have a choice but to ship Windows and have to stomach this shit being associated with their products.
I already did...and I like it! MacOS is far from perfect but much more usable that Windows 11 imho. I am missing some tools but slowly finding alternatives
I used to recommend against macOS as overpriced, but given Microsoft’s attempt to turn everything into a subscription license and mandatory surveillance of all your activities and data, if at all possible financially I recommend getting a Mac now.
The reason i don’t buy Macs is planned obsolescence. Even if i would have mac it would still be running Linux. Might as well not waste money and buy refurbished pc and install Linux on it.
Thanks for reminding me of the hundreds of dollars of games on Steam I bought to play on Mac and now can't because I didn't realize that giving into to their Apple's incessant update nagging would completely remove support for those games.
In spite of everything else, you've got to respect MS for their commitment to backward compatibility. I still frequently run Paint Shop Pro 7 (bought way back in 2000) on Windows 10.
Meanwhile, iOS games I developed in the 2012-2014 period were no longer runnable by the end of 2017 (due to the iOS transition to 64bit)
Meanwhile, iOS games I developed in the 2012-2014 period were no longer runnable by the end of 2017 (due to the iOS transition to 64bit)
Wow, yeah, i didn’t even know about that. That’s another reason to never use macos.
It's not as bad as you think. I'm currently rocking a 2017 MBA and it's eminently usable for all my needs even with 8GB RAM. 7 year's service is fairly good for a laptop, I've only recently changed the battery.
For non-gamers and lighter workloads you could easily make do with earlier models, provided they have a SSD.
For non-gamers and lighter workloads you could easily make do with earlier models, provided they have a SSD.
> 7 year's service is fairly good for a laptop
No it is not. That is a very low bar.
No it is not. That is a very low bar.
*7 years so far....
But what's your best anyway?
But what's your best anyway?
Currently using dell latitude from 2014, so it’s 10 years old. Bought it refurbished a few years ago for around $130. Upgraded its ram to 16 GB and storage to 2 TB SSD. And it has removable battery. Should last me well beyond 2030s.
Interesting, I was expecting a ThinkPad. Presumably you're on Linux too. But good going, I'll formally challenge you to a race if I can remember to come back this thread.
My own long-term plan is to install Linux when Apple drops support for Monterey on this hardware.
My own long-term plan is to install Linux when Apple drops support for Monterey on this hardware.
Yes, Linux. Cool! Let’s race :)
> Even if i would have mac it would still be running Linux
This was my plan, any solid distros that support the ARM64 silicon (M3 & M4 specifically) OOTB? I've concerns about support for the touchpad, webcam etc.
This was my plan, any solid distros that support the ARM64 silicon (M3 & M4 specifically) OOTB? I've concerns about support for the touchpad, webcam etc.
As of the last Asahi Linux update at the beginning of this year, they had caught up with M2 series only.
https://asahilinux.org/2024/01/fedora-asahi-new/
https://asahilinux.org/2024/01/fedora-asahi-new/
>Microsoft loves pushing people to buy macOS devices it would seem.
MacOS is basically unusable without logging into an Apple account, your logic does not follow.
This said, MacOS seems to be slowly but surely taking over former Windows use cases both in business and homes. If I had to guess why, it's probably the consistent, coherent GUI across the entire Apple ecosystem. People use computers to get shit done, after all.
MacOS is basically unusable without logging into an Apple account, your logic does not follow.
This said, MacOS seems to be slowly but surely taking over former Windows use cases both in business and homes. If I had to guess why, it's probably the consistent, coherent GUI across the entire Apple ecosystem. People use computers to get shit done, after all.
> MacOS is basically unusable without logging into an Apple account
It depends if you mean the OS + cloud services + app store, or just having an OS to run programs. The former definitely needs the Apple ID, but the latter doesn't. When I first switched back to macOS I refused any Apple ID linkage during OOBE and it never asked again. I just used Nextcloud, Firefox, LibreOffice and FOSS utilities, everything worked.
Later I did connect it after researching Apple's privacy policies, encryption methods and on-device processing - afaik I'm getting the cloud goodness without Apple selling my data, and that was enough to sway me.
It depends if you mean the OS + cloud services + app store, or just having an OS to run programs. The former definitely needs the Apple ID, but the latter doesn't. When I first switched back to macOS I refused any Apple ID linkage during OOBE and it never asked again. I just used Nextcloud, Firefox, LibreOffice and FOSS utilities, everything worked.
Later I did connect it after researching Apple's privacy policies, encryption methods and on-device processing - afaik I'm getting the cloud goodness without Apple selling my data, and that was enough to sway me.
>MacOS is basically unusable without logging into an Apple account
I use a Mac at my job with no Apple ID linked to it. What am I missing out on? It's not like you need to use the App Store to get software, so that's not it.
I use a Mac at my job with no Apple ID linked to it. What am I missing out on? It's not like you need to use the App Store to get software, so that's not it.
macOS is completely usable without an Apple ID. All you lose is iCloud, iMessage, FaceTime, iTunes/Apple Music/Apple TV, and the Mac App Store (but most apps are distributed outside of it anyway). And you can sign into the Mac App Store separately from iCloud as well. So not really comparable to Microsoft's push for signing in with a Microsoft account.
I only used Apple Id once, to install the C compiler ("Command Line Tools (CLT) for Xcode", for Homebrew).
Though that was 2 years ago - has it changed?
Though that was 2 years ago - has it changed?
Apple ID shouldn't be required for that (unless you're downloading it from the Apple Developer site instead of installing through macOS directly?).
Maybe I'm wrong? It's been a couple of years. I think I recall there were alternatives, but using my Apple ID was easiest?
You should just be prompted to install it whenever you try and run a command (like Git or Clang) that's installed by it. `xcode-select --install` triggers the installation as well. macOS just downloads and installs it through the same underlying mechanism that macOS updates are installed by, no account required.
(Homebrew also just installs it automatically now, without needing any user intervention.)
EDIT: Maybe you were put off by the insane time estimate that it presents for some reason? It quotes a multi-day installation time that ends up only taking a few minutes. Maybe Apple will fix that someday.
(Homebrew also just installs it automatically now, without needing any user intervention.)
EDIT: Maybe you were put off by the insane time estimate that it presents for some reason? It quotes a multi-day installation time that ends up only taking a few minutes. Maybe Apple will fix that someday.
Why don't they have a choice? Contractual agreements?
Linux isn't actually a serious competitor in this space.
It should be. Everything in the world runs on Linux except people who write Word documents and emails for a living. All that's missing is a simple UI that provides LibreOffice and a browser and doesn't nag you or leave you vulnerable to malware and then educating purchasing agents to know about it and trust it.
>Everything in the world runs on Linux except people who write Word documents and emails for a living.
Many many games, SolidWorks CAD, QuickBooks Enterprise, Act! CRM, etc.... A small sample of things that don't run on Linux.
We have different opinions of "everything".
Many many games, SolidWorks CAD, QuickBooks Enterprise, Act! CRM, etc.... A small sample of things that don't run on Linux.
We have different opinions of "everything".
Proton DB says that 89% of the top 1000 games, 89% of the top 100 and 6 of the top 10 games on steam are rated Silver or above (a 7th is rated Bronze and 3 are broken).
AreWeAntiCheat yet says:
161 games are Supported (42%)
46 games are Running (12%)
3 are planning to support Linux (1%)
147 are currently Broken (38%)
28 (only) are explicitly Denied (7%)
So, many don't but, also, many do. Not everything, not nothing.
AreWeAntiCheat yet says:
161 games are Supported (42%)
46 games are Running (12%)
3 are planning to support Linux (1%)
147 are currently Broken (38%)
28 (only) are explicitly Denied (7%)
So, many don't but, also, many do. Not everything, not nothing.
So most businesses.
I've seen laptops from large OEMs likr HP and Lenovo that ship with Ubuntu by default
The last two laptops I've purchased have been the same model as dell's 'developer editions' that came with linux preinstalled. Ironically I bought them with windows both times because the windows versions were on sale for like 25% off while the true 'developer editions' were still full price.
First thing I did was format them and install linux. My mom has my laptop from 2008 and it's still going strong with a lightweight mint xfce distro.
First thing I did was format them and install linux. My mom has my laptop from 2008 and it's still going strong with a lightweight mint xfce distro.
My guess is the reason for this is the lower default prize displayed, since in some regions they have to include the OS price in the total (or deduct it when you don't want it).
Sure, and I've bought those for myself. Doesn't change the fact that they're (perceived as) useless for nearly all business use cases.
> Doesn't change the fact that they're (perceived as) useless for nearly all business use cases.
That seems like the OEMs choice? Valve doesn't seem to be struggling with marketing non Windows for a usecase that was seen as "unsupported" until they came along.
That seems like the OEMs choice? Valve doesn't seem to be struggling with marketing non Windows for a usecase that was seen as "unsupported" until they came along.
The demand for other OSes isn't really there other than on Phones.
Despite all the awfulness of windows, macos is just as user hostile if not moreso especially on the hardware layer, so i'm not really sure about that one. I understand apple users have a strange blindness to this reality though. Linux though, yes for sure.
User hostile?sure. As windows? Not even close. MS shoves ads, constant surveillance, and other annoying anti features constantly on their users. You can easily use a Mac with without Mac cloud access.
Right there are much friendlier ones like pop os and mint.
streissand effect in play maybe?
i think they lose more from this getting publicized than any losses from having this publicly available for the week or so.
i think they lose more from this getting publicized than any losses from having this publicly available for the week or so.
I get how they made their sign up funnel confusing, but I personally didn't need a guide to make a local account. It was all right there in the setup UI, if you click around. I believe it just took a "skip" or "cancel" or "no thanks" or two, nothing too outrageous. I love my Debian laptop and my Mac laptop, but few people are about to give up an entire OS over petty annoyances where workarounds exist. Windows has survived countless silly experiments like this over the decades. Windows could require you to Skype a video of your butt to Satya Nadella to log in, and half the world would still do it, that's how wide their moat is. So much AAA software locked in as Windows-only. Solidworks, Cyberpunk 2077, etc. Just being the contrarian to the expected Hacker News sentiment of "microsoft just killed itself".
Windows erased from my hard drive.
Debian Stable (Linux) welcomes escapees from lobster boiling:
https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-dvd/
https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-dvd/
There's also Mint, which is the boring 0 effort option. Don't run it myself because I like rolling release distros, but for a Windows refugee it may be welcoming: https://www.linuxmint.com/
Mint is actually great. I used to dismiss it because it seemed slow with its technical choices, but the flip side of that is that the experience is really refined. The support is great and it's very well suited for beginners and especially people who prefer GUI tools over the command line.
I love Mint! I am a refugee. When I read about the requirement to have a Microsoft account I motivated to learn and finally make the switch. Mint does have its issues with modules, and package availability, but I am slowly learning its quirks.
I eval'd popOS and mint and went with pop due to the fancy gnome tiling plugin. It's been a pleasant experience, but the software updater uses like 1G of ram on an 8GB laptop and I'm beginning to wish I was running mint xfce.
In terms of laptop compatibility because I need it all to be as cutting edge as possible, with minimum fuss, I moved to Fedora and not looked back.
For everything else, Debian is great.
For everything else, Debian is great.
Did you run into any specific issues with Debian?
Yes, the kernel was too old so my Ryzen didn't perform great.
I could have gone through enabling backports, but I could also have just gone Fedora and not have to mess around with things I shouldn't need to.
I could have gone through enabling backports, but I could also have just gone Fedora and not have to mess around with things I shouldn't need to.
Well, Pop!_OS is a fantastic choice. Plus, there’s a ISO version with Nvidia drivers.
Pop is perfect for those coming from Windows.
Pop is perfect for those coming from Windows.
100%. This is the nail in the coffin for me with Windows. It's all Mac and Linux from here on out.
As if Apple is any better than Microsoft.
Certainly the overwhelming view of HN is that they're morally equivalent, but that's more an indictment of blinkered HN groupthink than a statement of fact.
Agreed. Apple is by no means perfect (far from it), and neither is macOS. But anything user-hostile in macOS is relatively minor in comparison to Windows.
And for anyone who hasn't used macOS, it's not a locked-down walled-garden like iOS is.
And for anyone who hasn't used macOS, it's not a locked-down walled-garden like iOS is.
I look at it like this.
For me, Linux.
For my mom, Mac.
For my enemies, Windows.
For me, Linux.
For my mom, Mac.
For my enemies, Windows.
There's no such thing as a statement of fact when it comes to morals. And I say this as someone who believes in universal moral law.
Debian is just about the worst Linux distribution to recommend for desktop use for newcomers to the ecosystem.
We're on a tech forum, where people probably need less handholding with tech gear than the general public does.
And, once no longer a newb, Debian is easily one of the best distros to be in, for many purposes, long-term.
Why not start with one of the most popular and principled distros, and see whether it just works for you?
From there, if your eye ever starts wandering towards some strange other distro, you have a well-informed good baseline to compare against.
And, once no longer a newb, Debian is easily one of the best distros to be in, for many purposes, long-term.
Why not start with one of the most popular and principled distros, and see whether it just works for you?
From there, if your eye ever starts wandering towards some strange other distro, you have a well-informed good baseline to compare against.
To be perfectly honest, anyone approaching Linux from Windows needs caveats so that they can make their mind up for themselves and pick what's best for them. Every distro (and Linux as a whole) has trade offs and things that will need to be considered.
> We're on a tech forum, where people probably need less handholding with tech gear than the general public does.
I'm not sure about that. I think the days of assuming people who can code or do another specialized tech sill are long over.
The amount of comments from people who prefer windows or mac or ubuntu and systemd because of convenience and abstraction (i.e. handholding) are plentiful.
I'm not sure about that. I think the days of assuming people who can code or do another specialized tech sill are long over.
The amount of comments from people who prefer windows or mac or ubuntu and systemd because of convenience and abstraction (i.e. handholding) are plentiful.
Anyone familiar with desktop Linux enough to advocate for its use is so disconnected from the experience for a newcomer that they should never ever ever be trusted.
Anyone who can perform the arcane incantations and rituals required to uninstall, disable, defuse, and circumvent all the user hostile anti-features ( which are only increasing in number by the way ) will do just fine with Linux in my honest opinion.
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Fedora Silverblue is probably the most appropriate distro for fleeing Windows. Great UI, Snap is coming along and there's fewer footguns.
Mint feels more like Windows, by design.
Does it have a gui based update manager that doesn't require me to enter my password because it ducktapes sudo on top?
God, the ubuntu one is the worst as it'll sometimes prompt multiple times for a password.
God, the ubuntu one is the worst as it'll sometimes prompt multiple times for a password.
IME, the GUI updates work out of the box with the default Debian desktop, no prompting for passwords.
I guess Ubuntu behavior you saw might've been due to their Snap package stuff, not the normal Debian APT package stuff.
I guess Ubuntu behavior you saw might've been due to their Snap package stuff, not the normal Debian APT package stuff.
GhostBSD (FreeBSD) welcomes everyone as well.
https://www.ghostbsd.org/download
https://www.ghostbsd.org/download
GhostBSD is like that second party in The Office that the party planning committee made.
Due to all this mess with Recall, force account log-ins, spamming my desktop with crap all the time, not being able to to disable telemetry, confusing privacy settings spread all through out the OS... I finally made the call two weeks ago to get rid of Windows after decades of using the Microsoft OS. I tried Pop, Ubuntu, Mint... all decent options but settled on Debian for now. It's been a slog of a two weeks and one massive learning curve, but everything is now setup and working great. I have 100% parity with my previous Windows install and it was a freeing experience being able to delete my Windows partition. My biggest problem was with video drivers. I have some utilities that require at least Nvidia 535 and Debian for some reason I can't fathom only supports 525 (obsolete by Nvidia's indication). All of the advice in Debian related forums was "don't go with proprietary install scripts" which was flat out wrong. I don't know what is causing this brain failure on the part of the entire Debian community when it comes to drivers, but they need to fix that. No need to run the latest and greatest, but when the only option is a driver that is marked as obsolete and won't run a lot of software, it needs to be addressed.
The pleasant surprise has been games. I thought I would have to abandon gaming or keep a second Windows partition, but so far all the games I have tried have run 100% -- even though it took some minimal tweaking in some cases. V-Rising, Elder Scrolls Online, New World, RimWorld... all work as well as on Windows thanks to Steam and Proton. (Rimworld required one change in the config .ini to support my super ultra wide monitor, ESO had to be manually imported into Steam. V-Rising required installing the Proton-GE version to address a problem with cut scenes). It's a bit tedious to have to address small problems like that, but more than worth it to get rid of an OS that I feel is constantly trying to attack me.
I am moving my wife to Zorin next. I can't recommend Debian to most people that just want to use a desktop. It was difficult for me and I have decades of experience in running Linux servers. I will probably stick with Debian as its working great now, but too many things were too hard to make it an option for most desktop users I would imagine. I can recommend ditching Windows for some flavor of Linux.
The pleasant surprise has been games. I thought I would have to abandon gaming or keep a second Windows partition, but so far all the games I have tried have run 100% -- even though it took some minimal tweaking in some cases. V-Rising, Elder Scrolls Online, New World, RimWorld... all work as well as on Windows thanks to Steam and Proton. (Rimworld required one change in the config .ini to support my super ultra wide monitor, ESO had to be manually imported into Steam. V-Rising required installing the Proton-GE version to address a problem with cut scenes). It's a bit tedious to have to address small problems like that, but more than worth it to get rid of an OS that I feel is constantly trying to attack me.
I am moving my wife to Zorin next. I can't recommend Debian to most people that just want to use a desktop. It was difficult for me and I have decades of experience in running Linux servers. I will probably stick with Debian as its working great now, but too many things were too hard to make it an option for most desktop users I would imagine. I can recommend ditching Windows for some flavor of Linux.
FWIW, I found Pop_OS to provide pretty (very?) up-to-date Nvidia drivers via the pop_os repos.
So I haven't found any reason to use Nvidia's installers.
So I haven't found any reason to use Nvidia's installers.
Yeah I didn't have any problems with this on Pop or Ubuntu. I guess its a Debian issue. I might end up moving over to a different distro at some point, but I finally have everything working on Debian so I am hesitant to switch right now.
Boiling pot escape is not possible if said lobsters have been humanely euthanized.
Okay, huge tangent, but just yesterday at the dinner table this came up. I realized I've shied away from the horrors of boiling live lobsters, and I'm not okay with doing it any more.
I need to learn how to kill them less painfully prior to cooking. And I doubt I can eat restaurant lobster in good conscience any more.
I need to learn how to kill them less painfully prior to cooking. And I doubt I can eat restaurant lobster in good conscience any more.
You can usually euthanize the lobster before cooking it by spiking it at the top of its head, or by freezing it.
At some point, there’s a personal decision to be made as to whether the inhumanity of eating a crustacean that was alive shortly before cooking is any different than the inhumanity of predator-prey relationships in the wild.
At some point, there’s a personal decision to be made as to whether the inhumanity of eating a crustacean that was alive shortly before cooking is any different than the inhumanity of predator-prey relationships in the wild.
Being touted as an escape every single time there is a new Windows version for the last 30 years.
Meanwhile Steam has to use Proton, and is nonetheless around 2%.
Meanwhile Steam has to use Proton, and is nonetheless around 2%.
Proton has massively changed the game. I'd say the time since 2018 has had more advances in usability than the 25 years before it (for "normal" people), effectively making any "you've been saying this for X years" argument moot.
Proton is Windows PC gaming with a Linux kernel.
It is only a moot point for those "I feel good to use Linux kernel to run Windows on top" kind of feeling.
While ignoring it is still Windows games that are being written, by game studios targeting regular Windows deployments, and those same studios might even have Android games written in OpenGL ES/Vulkan, that they won't bother porting to GNU/Linux.
It is only a moot point for those "I feel good to use Linux kernel to run Windows on top" kind of feeling.
While ignoring it is still Windows games that are being written, by game studios targeting regular Windows deployments, and those same studios might even have Android games written in OpenGL ES/Vulkan, that they won't bother porting to GNU/Linux.
I don't really understand the issue. I click on 'play' on Steam and the game works. That's all that matters to me.
Might be, doesn't change the fact those are Windows games.
But hang on, your original comment was slating Linux for people saying that it was an escape for the past 30 years. It is now an escape for an ever increasing audience and set of use cases, and you're saying that these new people who have to this point not had any issues with running Windows games won't be able to "escape" because they'd have to play Windows games?
Have some consistency.
Have some consistency.
2% after 30 years is hardly an ever increasing audience.
Proton is not an escape when it is still Windows software, using Windows APIs, written by companies targeting Windows customers.
Proton is not an escape when it is still Windows software, using Windows APIs, written by companies targeting Windows customers.
I love how you leapt on 'audience' there and didn't want to refute use cases. Also leaning on that '30 year' figure. Funny.
The Steam Deck has sold millions of units (increase in audience) and now supports 89% of the top 1000 games at Silver and above (increase in use case). 2% is indeed an increase from where it started in 2018, but it goes to show how many Windows machines are out there that the % isn't higher.
I don't really understand your position. You're vehemently against any Windows code or games running at all and want to belittle, minimise or dismiss any progress that has been made. It feels like you're arguing in bad faith.
The Steam Deck has sold millions of units (increase in audience) and now supports 89% of the top 1000 games at Silver and above (increase in use case). 2% is indeed an increase from where it started in 2018, but it goes to show how many Windows machines are out there that the % isn't higher.
I don't really understand your position. You're vehemently against any Windows code or games running at all and want to belittle, minimise or dismiss any progress that has been made. It feels like you're arguing in bad faith.
What use cases?
That Linux gamers are so starving for Linux native games that they have to contend with running Windows games via an API translation layer?
Not even studios that target other POSIX platforms bother targeting GNU/Linux natively.
SteamDeck sales are a drop in the ocean of Switch, Playstation, XBox, and Windows PC sales, if you feeling like going into war numbers.
But hey, enjoy your "Linux" games.
That Linux gamers are so starving for Linux native games that they have to contend with running Windows games via an API translation layer?
Not even studios that target other POSIX platforms bother targeting GNU/Linux natively.
SteamDeck sales are a drop in the ocean of Switch, Playstation, XBox, and Windows PC sales, if you feeling like going into war numbers.
But hey, enjoy your "Linux" games.
I will, thank you
I mean sure it's not using native APIs, but many developers are specifically targeting Steam Deck to get a Steam Deck Verified label and show up prominently on the Steam Store. So despite developing for Windows, they are doing QA on Linux.
Proton is the only stable and maintained runtime you can target for Linux and it comes with no performance penalty.
Few games actually get more fps than on Windows. What alternative runtime would you suggest and more to the point what problem would it actually solve.
If the game studio actually so much as tests on Proton (or more realistically Steam Deck) that’s great gold medal and as much targeting Linux as you can get.
Demanding anything more is not realistic given current market share, but also again what would you even gain.
The actual threat to gaming on Linux is any form of DRM.
Few games actually get more fps than on Windows. What alternative runtime would you suggest and more to the point what problem would it actually solve.
If the game studio actually so much as tests on Proton (or more realistically Steam Deck) that’s great gold medal and as much targeting Linux as you can get.
Demanding anything more is not realistic given current market share, but also again what would you even gain.
The actual threat to gaming on Linux is any form of DRM.
With the increasing efforts from Asus, MSI, Lenovo, and the potential XBox Handheld that keeps being hyped about, let's see how long SteamDeck keeps its relevance.
The Deck is tied into the most popular PC games store, and one with followers so loyal they'll refuse to buy a game until it comes to Steam because they don't want another launcher.
It'll do fine. People don't want to re-buy their gaming libraries for an Xbox handheld and the OS integration for the other devices is pretty poor.
It'll do fine. People don't want to re-buy their gaming libraries for an Xbox handheld and the OS integration for the other devices is pretty poor.
> it comes with no performance penalty.
I keep reading this on the internet and I’m fully convinced that this is written by people with powerful machines.
Whenever I try to play a game that barely runs at 60 fps on windows in my basic system it invariably runs in the range of 45-55 fps on Linux.
This would be perfectly acceptable except that it eventually leads to stutters that I never experienced on windows..
Ps. Yeah I tried to troubleshoot this with everything google and ChatGPT had to offer: disable composers, different proton versions, different distros and different desktops environments. The matter of the fact is that there’s an overhead and if your system is barely running it on windows you will probably have performance headaches on Linux.
I keep reading this on the internet and I’m fully convinced that this is written by people with powerful machines.
Whenever I try to play a game that barely runs at 60 fps on windows in my basic system it invariably runs in the range of 45-55 fps on Linux.
This would be perfectly acceptable except that it eventually leads to stutters that I never experienced on windows..
Ps. Yeah I tried to troubleshoot this with everything google and ChatGPT had to offer: disable composers, different proton versions, different distros and different desktops environments. The matter of the fact is that there’s an overhead and if your system is barely running it on windows you will probably have performance headaches on Linux.
> Whenever I try to play a game that barely runs at 60 fps on windows in my basic system it invariably runs in the range of 45-55 fps on Linux.
This is not a valid test. You need to compare Linux native vs. Proton rather than (Proton+Linux) vs. Windows. Otherwise you’re comparing at least three things at once.
This is not a valid test. You need to compare Linux native vs. Proton rather than (Proton+Linux) vs. Windows. Otherwise you’re comparing at least three things at once.
Yeah I mean if you look at windows vs linux gaming benchmarks on phoronix it's clear there's about a 10% performance penalty. On the other hand there's a 10% penalty using bitlocker on windows vs almost none on linux, so it evens out if you care about privacy. Also you know for certain MS isn't keylogging everything you type to some godforsaken MS service, and the developer experience on linux is miles better.
> Proton is Windows PC gaming with a Linux kernel.
Who the hell cares? Besides RMS I suppose, but he wouldn't want to run closed source games to begin with.
Who the hell cares? Besides RMS I suppose, but he wouldn't want to run closed source games to begin with.
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Stop giving money and support to people and organizations that openly show disdain for me.
It originally came from getting tired of watching (in this case, WoW) streamers talk about how stupid and out of touch “chat” (a group that includes me) is in one breath and then ask for support/subscriptions in the next, but I started applying it to the other things that I consume as well. In this case, here we have a very clear effort by lots of people to not be tracked, and Microsoft making concerted efforts to take away the thing they want for the purpose of making more money.
It’s not feasible to be absolute in this - I still need to put gas in my car and eat, for example. But I find there’s a strangely good feeling to walking away from someone who’s making presumptions about their right to my time, attention, and money while spitting in my face, and I feel like I’m a normal enough person to be a reasonable barometer on that sentiment.
So I guess my point is, I wonder how many times a company like Microsoft can spit in their customers faces before the average person decides to not be a customer anymore.