16-inch MacBook Pro(apple.com)
apple.com
16-inch MacBook Pro
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/11/apple-introduces-16-inch-macbook-pro-the-worlds-best-pro-notebook/
1,742 comments
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Maybe because they started out so low, and there was a long way to go with improvements.
My 2015 era MBA was great. They just screwed up, and told us they fixed it so many times it doesn't matter if they've actually fixed it this time (which they may have - https://marco.org/media/2019/11/mbp16-graph.png - we'll see in a few months) because we don't believe them. Typing this on a Surface with WSL2.
And it's never true (or hasn't been for awhile at least). It's clear they're engineering for thinness above all else, usability be damned.
I'm typing on a 2014-era Macbook Pro right now and I doubt any new scissor keys are gonna feel better than this. All of the newer Macbook Pros I've typed on have been terrible.
I'm typing on a 2014-era Macbook Pro right now and I doubt any new scissor keys are gonna feel better than this. All of the newer Macbook Pros I've typed on have been terrible.
Scissor keys are the old ones that everyone likes. It was butterfly keys that people have the problem with. Apple is going back to the good ones.
It's not just the switch mechanism. The keys are too big and the gap between them is too narrow. I used to intuitively feel where my fingers were and pressing a key off center was much less likely to cause a typo.
> There’s also more space between keys — about 0.5mm. This difference is much more noticeable by feel than by sight. Making it easier to feel the gaps between keys really does make a difference.
https://daringfireball.net/2019/11/16-inch_macbook_pro_first...
https://daringfireball.net/2019/11/16-inch_macbook_pro_first...
Thanks. I looked into it and apparently the new gap is 2.5mm vs 3.5mm on the 2015. I hope it's enough.
If so, the next Air with the new keyboard and quad core Ice/Tiger Lake gets my money.
edit: or ideally a 14" Pro
If so, the next Air with the new keyboard and quad core Ice/Tiger Lake gets my money.
edit: or ideally a 14" Pro
Yeah, I was quite encouraged by the description of the changes in that blog post. I haven't had an issue so far with keys sticking, but literally every complaint I did have about the new keyboard (low keypress travel, keys too close together, touchbar too close to the keyboard, no physical Escape key) was addressed. If there was an easy way to trade in my 2018 15" Pro for a reasonable price I would totally do it.
Sell it before its value tanks.
This should be in bold type at the top of the page.
If they keyboard has actually been fixed, they might keep me as a user.
If they keyboard has actually been fixed, they might keep me as a user.
Many people find the old keyboard to be mushy after using the butterfly for a while
I bought my 2019 mbp specifically for the keyboard. It’s like a very shallow mechanical keyboard.
I've been interested in thin mechanical keyboards on laptops for a while now. Do all 2019 models have it?
If my peers experience is any indication, they all have the switches that break spontaneously and keys that start double-entering, stop working, or even detach from the keyboard.
I expect that their laptops won't have any working keys at 1 year of use.
I expect that their laptops won't have any working keys at 1 year of use.
This one is 2% thicker to accommodate the mechanism changes and a bigger battery.
But, sure, let's kneejerk yell about their engineering decisions.
But, sure, let's kneejerk yell about their engineering decisions.
This model is actually 7 mm thicker than the 2019 15".
Thank God. I'm so sick of Apple making their machines worse just to shave off a few nanometers from the chassis.
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that's 0.7mm
Jony Ive isn't working there anymore. Coincidence? I Think Not!
They're running out of ways to word their puffery.
Yeah... at this point I half expect to read from Apple:
“When we changed the key travel from 1.0mm to 0.5mm, it was so much better that it became the best keyboard in the world. And now, with the change from 0.5mm to 1.0mm, we’ve made it even better than ever: Welcome to the world’s best typing experience.”
“When we changed the key travel from 1.0mm to 0.5mm, it was so much better that it became the best keyboard in the world. And now, with the change from 0.5mm to 1.0mm, we’ve made it even better than ever: Welcome to the world’s best typing experience.”
Don't the claim the best everything everytime they release a new anything?
And for a good while they could actually have made a believable claim for it
Now, it's just pure marketing speak
Now, it's just pure marketing speak
Yes.
Because logically you improve everytime, primarily why Cook comes onto stage every year saying:
"This is our best iPhone yet"
or insert whatever apple product you want.
Because logically you improve everytime, primarily why Cook comes onto stage every year saying:
"This is our best iPhone yet"
or insert whatever apple product you want.
Which is pretty redundant to say. No one would say the opposite and everyone expects an improved version.
It's just fancy PR talking points.
It's just fancy PR talking points.
But it makes consumers feel better about their decision.
Imagine you're a techie and wondering if this very minimal refresh to the iPhone is worth buying?
"It's our best yet" or "It's made for pros"
I mean, as you pointed out, it's fancy PR/textbook examples of good PR.
"It's our best yet" or "It's made for pros"
I mean, as you pointed out, it's fancy PR/textbook examples of good PR.
> Ladies and Gentleman, for the 17th year in a row, the future of robotics has arrived.
https://comb.io/8ajSgE
https://comb.io/8ajSgE
It feels like a single child is in charge of directing, writing, editing these marketing materials. It’s the “best”? Surely that alone will convince your customers who saw how you made the worst laptop keyboard ever when you shrank the depth. Surely you want to convince them you fixed that issue. Oh? You’re just going to ignore it and say its the best? The baseline price is $2400? In the highly competitive $1500+ laptop space? Bold move, Cotton.
They used the phrase "world's best pro notebook" three times in the first 200 words! How could they be wrong?
Katie Cotton retired in 2014!
Now they have nobody to make new words.
Now they have nobody to make new words.
If you didn't think you had improved on the last version why would you release it?
When you write software presumably you think each release is the best experience each time?
When you write software presumably you think each release is the best experience each time?
The standard for releasing new software is that it should be better than its own previous self, in some way. It doesn't have to be better in all ways, or best in the world in any way, so long as the overall value proposition has improved. What rubs many people the wrong way about Apple is that they always claim to be the absolute best in all dimensions, as though engineering tradeoffs or accommodation to users' priorities and preferences are only for lesser companies. "Our car is the fastest and the most comfortable and the most fuel efficient, so you'd have to be an idiot to want anything else." It's the computing equivalent of snake oil, and people react to that.
Their 2018 MacBook is by far the best typing experience I had on a laptop. Other laptop keyboards would be happy with just writing down what I just typed, the MacBook goes one step further and doubles many letters. That's after 6 months of use and 95% of the time using an external keyboard.
Meanwhile, every time I take out my 6 years old Thinkpad T440s the keyboard feels nice instantly.
Meanwhile, every time I take out my 6 years old Thinkpad T440s the keyboard feels nice instantly.
> they claim "best typing experience" every time they release a new laptop
What do you expect them to say?
What do you expect them to say?
How does 1mm travel distance compare to the external magic keyboard for iMac?
I REALLY loved the short travel distance of .55mm :( I could type so much faster, bordering on 160wpm
I REALLY loved the short travel distance of .55mm :( I could type so much faster, bordering on 160wpm
Looks like you get your escape key back, that's nice.
I have a Pro at work and dislike its keyboard so much that I still have a 2013 Air at home. This is the first Pro I’ll consider in a long time because of the Esc key.
Too little, too late. If it weren't for the OS, which they are also butchering, I would've moved away from Apple sooner.
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Marco posted an update earlier - https://marco.org/2019/11/13/mbp16
I was so hoping for a constant bezel width. Unfortunately the top bezel is still a lot larger than the side ones. I know it's because of the camera, but that makes for an awkward looking device…
Can you elaborate on why constant bezel width is so important? Most devices (phones, tablets, TVs, laptops) don't have constant bezel width.
Most devices look terrible as a result.
That's your personal opinion. I don't like thinning of the machines (and that's a opinion) but I have actual reasons for it (overheating, battery size, upgradebility). Saying that uneven bezels are bad because you don't like them is like saying that recycling is bad because I don't like multiple bins in front of my house.
I just find uneven bezels ugly. And I think symmetry as a beauty factor is quite widespread :)
> Most devices (phones, tablets, TVs, laptops) don't have constant bezel width.
Some phones and tablets have varied bezel width because they are touch-screen devices that need to be held by their screens.
In my experience, most TVs and laptops have uniform bezel widths. Especially TVs since they are so commonly treated as furniture, and therefore receive a great deal of design attention. On laptops, an exception is often the bottom bezel, where you often will see some additional surface material.
I agree with GP that laptops should have uniform bezel widths to look their best. It's not a must-have, but a uniform narrow bezel is optimal for laptop aesthetics.
Some phones and tablets have varied bezel width because they are touch-screen devices that need to be held by their screens.
In my experience, most TVs and laptops have uniform bezel widths. Especially TVs since they are so commonly treated as furniture, and therefore receive a great deal of design attention. On laptops, an exception is often the bottom bezel, where you often will see some additional surface material.
I agree with GP that laptops should have uniform bezel widths to look their best. It's not a must-have, but a uniform narrow bezel is optimal for laptop aesthetics.
better than having a cutout from the screen...
It's really something that one of the first promotional photos on the page is a macbook hooked up to audio gear through daisy-chained dongles and adapters instead of just a regular USB or ethernet cable like it would've been in the old days. The price of thin.
Still no LTE modem?
I feel like LTE modems in laptops are pointless since virtually every smartphone is capable of creating private hotspot to share LTE connection.
It wouldn't be pointless for me. I quite often use my iPhone to provide an Internet connection for my MacBook Pro. I wish it were more reliable and didn't consume so much battery. Dell and other laptop vendors have been embedding cellular modems in laptops for a long time. Apple manages to put one in a watch and every other device.
It appears that the Qualcomm license problems are the only impediment to Apple putting an LTE modem into a bigger device.
It appears that the Qualcomm license problems are the only impediment to Apple putting an LTE modem into a bigger device.
What if you want to save battery life on your phone while you're on the go? I imagine having LTE modem in the machine must be a less laggy experience as well.
LTE modem in laptop will take more power and you always can charge your phone from laptop. And also, I know this is kind of stupid solution but because of crappy battery life on most of the smartphones this days I can imagine going out for a day without emergency powerbank.
Having used laptops with LTE modems, I prefer having the option. That the option is not available from Apple indicates that the Qualcomm patents are causing market failure.
They pretty much only exist in business laptops because in that context it can be useful to issue someone a field laptop with a SIM in it, and it doesn't really mean much for cost on a large corporate data plan.
You like paying for one extra mobile subscription?
All of my other devices have LTE modems.
That mobile carriers have not caught up with a better pricing model is not as important to me as having fewer failure points when traveling.
That mobile carriers have not caught up with a better pricing model is not as important to me as having fewer failure points when traveling.
To be fair in some countries providers give data SIM pretty much for free. Here where I am, my provider gives one SIM with data plan for free every other normal SIM, so in my mini company I have 2 company phone numbers and I got SIM card with data plan for free and there was literally no way to opt out of that SIM without paying more.
I'm astonished and pleased to see they walked back the two worst things about the original Touch Bar MBPs - the lack of a physical Escape key, and the full-size left and right arrow keys.
The lack of physical function keys remains regrettable, and the Touch Bar is still no worthy substitute, but perhaps this is a sign that Apple is finally interested in listening to feedback from its long-term customer base, even if that feedback conflicts with the design team's desires.
The lack of physical function keys remains regrettable, and the Touch Bar is still no worthy substitute, but perhaps this is a sign that Apple is finally interested in listening to feedback from its long-term customer base, even if that feedback conflicts with the design team's desires.
I feel the same. The stubbornness of Apple that was so frustrating is a bit more flexible now, paying attention to "subtle" feedback like the arrow key's sizes.
We devs are so conservative. It's ridiculous. Nobody allows Apple to innovate.
Apple can innovate as much as they wish. For example put the touchbar above the keyboard or below the LCD. Nobody is complaining about the TouchID on the power button for example, since that maintains its core purpose.
People are complaining because 30+ year old keys they rely on to do their professional work were removed to add arguably a gimmick with a worse user experience/no touch feedback.
People are complaining because 30+ year old keys they rely on to do their professional work were removed to add arguably a gimmick with a worse user experience/no touch feedback.
Just like people complained when they dropped floppy and and PS/2 for CDs and USB? Or when they introduced a smartphone with no physical keyboard?
Anecdotes don't make it fact.
You can see the difference in reactions to know that it wasn't wanted or desired by the target market. Its not anecdotes anymore, its data which we've had 3 years to accumulate.
I don't think there is a difference in reactions. A vocal minority complain every time Apple changes anything. Lots of people complained about the chiclet keyboard when the 2008 Macbook Pro came out. And shipping a computer without a floppy drive or a PS/2 port seemed crazy to many people at the time.
Oh, don't underestimate the longevity of the no-floppy and especially the no-ethernet complainers. Just as one data point: there are non-ironic gripes about those decisions in this very thread.
Change for the sake of change isn't innovation, it's a waste of time.
Spending hours fiddling with a dysfunctional keyboard that breaks after a week of normal use or has a gimmicky non-standard layout is not how I want to spend my finite time and mental energy.
Spending hours fiddling with a dysfunctional keyboard that breaks after a week of normal use or has a gimmicky non-standard layout is not how I want to spend my finite time and mental energy.
It may be "flexible" or their hand was forced. I know, personally, at least half a dozen people who have either delayed a Macbook purchased or outright moved to PC alternatives (e.g. XPS 13, Surface Laptop) because of the poor keyboard (both reliability and touchbar).
Now six people isn't statistically significant, but if that trend mirrors a wider one it could be costing Apple a measurable amount. The real question is will this be enough to satisfy e.g. programmers that actually want to bind the F keys to build/clean/run/step over/etc?
Now six people isn't statistically significant, but if that trend mirrors a wider one it could be costing Apple a measurable amount. The real question is will this be enough to satisfy e.g. programmers that actually want to bind the F keys to build/clean/run/step over/etc?
They'll go right back, don't worry.
Go back to what? They already haven't purchased a new Macbook in five or more years, that money is already lost to Apple. All Apple can do is try to get them for their next upgrade.
I don't think I am.
Why is that bad?
Apple for once listened to feedback and made corresponding changes; what's wrong with saying k, thanks, great?
Apple for once listened to feedback and made corresponding changes; what's wrong with saying k, thanks, great?
I've just ordered my first Windows laptop ever, literally. Dell XPS 13 (6 core model). I've been using Macbook Pros solely since the original Aluminium model when Apple moved to Intel processors. Apple's apparent hubris and inability to go back on their design decisions (Touch Bar...) has just pushed me over the edge.
I've been using my mid 2015 Macbook Pro and hopefully waiting for them to release a new MBP ideally without the touch or move the trackpad down/make it smaller, and have the Touchbar PLUS physical function keys (which I use for programming).
So yeah... "Pro" users at least in my case (and some friends) are moving away from Apple.
I've been using my mid 2015 Macbook Pro and hopefully waiting for them to release a new MBP ideally without the touch or move the trackpad down/make it smaller, and have the Touchbar PLUS physical function keys (which I use for programming).
So yeah... "Pro" users at least in my case (and some friends) are moving away from Apple.
It takes a long time to get a design through the point of manufacture... especially at that scale. And even before that happens, an organization needs to admit that it has to happen in the first place. For everybody saying the keyboard sucked and needed improvement, there were at least a few people within Apple that had staked something on the design as it was.
And yet, I don’t think I’ll upgrade solely because of the touchbar. It’s horrible.
I've had a touchbar machine as my primary for a couple years now and essentially don't use the touchbar. But I didn't use f-keys all that much either.
I think there are some software improvement that could maybe make it better, but I'm not sure better enough to be compelling.
I think there are some software improvement that could maybe make it better, but I'm not sure better enough to be compelling.
How easy is changing the volume with the touch bar. I use the function keys for that all the time.
You slide on the virtual key.
I mentioned you in a peer post that you might not otherwise notice.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21529637
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21529637
Thanks, the comment thread for this post is a bit large and I probably would have missed that otherwise.
Not bad... as saagarjha says, you can slide on either that key or the brightness key. Unfortunately, that doesn't work for me because I've set the touchbar to default to F-keys for the sake of consistency with the other keyboards I use. For whatever reason, this means that the slide-on-button trick does not work.
Yeah, I'm not sure why that disables app controls :/
The thing is, you can't use the touch bar without looking at it whereas I was constantly blind typing function keys. I think Apple have a different understand of "Pro" than I do.
For me the physical keys are better. With the touch bar, I have to look down to change the volume, and it occasionally hangs with the volume slider visible, but not actually responding to input. That's usually when I really want to turn down the volume quickly, and instead my laptop is blasting for another second while I have to adjust the volume with the mouse.
Also I really would like a physical mute button. It's often very valuable to be able to mute in a hurry.
Also I really would like a physical mute button. It's often very valuable to be able to mute in a hurry.
Follow the money. It was cheaper to stick with that design for 3 iterations than it was to change it.
The escape key will be especially welcome by me, as I found the touchbar exceptionally hard to deal with, and I would often have to hit it three or four times to get vim to exit insert mode. I actually didn't have much trouble with the arrow keys, despite all the negative feedback I saw for them online.
Hopefully this trend continues and they can iterate on this model even further.
Hopefully this trend continues and they can iterate on this model even further.
I remapped `jj` to escape (shortly before the touchbar was announced), because I disliked either having to move my hand or use both hands to get out of insert mode.
map! jj <Esc>
map! jj <Esc>
Yeah similarly I use
inoremap jk <Esc>
inoremap jk <Esc>
jk is the way to go! It is the fastest for me to type vs jj or kk.
If you map jk and kj to <Esc> you can just mash both keys at once and it doesn't matter which one registers first!
Have to ask: for all you jj / jk mappers, don’t you end up triggering this by accident when you’re just cruising around your code?
Very rarely. The only place I notice a difference is if the last letter I type is a j, the cursor 'hesitates' for a moment because Vim is watching for a k.
The advantage I found of jk over jj is that, in normal mode, jk is a no-op, so if I hit jk as Escape when I was already in normal mode, it doesn't matter.
The only problem is that when I'm editing text out of Vim, I end up with the occasional jk at the end of my typing. That almost happened while writing this comment.
The advantage I found of jk over jj is that, in normal mode, jk is a no-op, so if I hit jk as Escape when I was already in normal mode, it doesn't matter.
The only problem is that when I'm editing text out of Vim, I end up with the occasional jk at the end of my typing. That almost happened while writing this comment.
For cruising around my code the advantage is that jk/kj doesn't do anything in normal mode (cruising mode, haha). So I can just start mashing jk in a terminal window that I don't know what mode I left vim in.
The biggest downside to jk/kj mapping is that words that end with k are somewhat common. So a few times a week I will type something like "splunk" and want to exit insert mode immediately so I mash jk/kj after the k. 50% of the time the j is first so I end up with "splun" (kj is <esc>) (k moves up since we're in normal mode now).
The biggest downside to jk/kj mapping is that words that end with k are somewhat common. So a few times a week I will type something like "splunk" and want to exit insert mode immediately so I mash jk/kj after the k. 50% of the time the j is first so I end up with "splun" (kj is <esc>) (k moves up since we're in normal mode now).
> The biggest downside to jk/kj mapping is that words that end with k are somewhat common. So a few times a week I will type something like "splunk" and want to exit insert mode immediately so I mash jk/kj after the k. 50% of the time the j is first so I end up with "splun" (kj is <esc>) (k moves up since we're in normal mode now).
This is why I use `jj` instead of `jk`/`kj` -- as a native English speaker in a job where everyone primarily speaks English, there are few cases where I'd be writing code with a `jj` naturally in a string.
This is why I use `jj` instead of `jk`/`kj` -- as a native English speaker in a job where everyone primarily speaks English, there are few cases where I'd be writing code with a `jj` naturally in a string.
I haven't had that happen yet with jk at least, I could see jj triggering something if you have the timeout setting too long.
There's also vim-arpeggio, with which you can define mappings for simultanously held-down keys: https://github.com/kana/vim-arpeggio
ii here!
I remapped caps lock to escape and it's been wonderful. The oversized caps lock key on keyboards is an inexplicably bad UI choice anyway.
Personally I find a classic Unix layout to work best for me. I’ve mapped the caps lock key to CTRL. I use that far more than I ever use caps, it feels quite natural to me after about a week or two of adjustment.
You can use Karabiner Elements to configure your Caps Lock to act as Ctrl when held down, and escape when tapped alone. Best of both worlds.
In addition to this you can do something like mapping Shift+Caps Lock to be an actual Caps Lock toggle. Now you get 3 buttons for one and it works amazingly well.
This was a revelation when I discovered it earlier this year. I could never go back now, it’s so convenient.
This argument as THE SOLUTION really needs to stop. As an example I mapped caps to ctrl a long time ago so this won't work without compromises.
You can use Karbiner to have a short press of caps lock map to escape and a long press to control. Works pretty good.
Yep - I have mine set to be control if pressed with other keys, and escape if pressed alone. Works for everything except if I'm playing a videogame that uses ctrl to crouch.
Other people argue that all real vimmers use ctrl-[ instead of escape.
Edit: This is on a 2015 macbook pro, that still has the physical function keys. I almost never use the physical escape key, just capslock instead.
Other people argue that all real vimmers use ctrl-[ instead of escape.
Edit: This is on a 2015 macbook pro, that still has the physical function keys. I almost never use the physical escape key, just capslock instead.
I almost never use caps lock so I just mapped caps to esc and hold shift for all caps. The no escape thing doesn’t bother me anymore.
Can you map ctrl to esc?
Right? The solution is 'make the fuckin keyboard work'. These are workarounds.
I have twenty... seven, Jesus. Twenty seven years of muscle memory with VI. The only keyboard I can't 'vote with my feet' on is the built-in one on my laptop. As a result I'm hardly ever using my laptop untethered now. I don't think I've ever owned a keyboard I've typed less on than the touchbar macbook. Which means I'm barely using them as laptops, which is a little depressing.
I have twenty... seven, Jesus. Twenty seven years of muscle memory with VI. The only keyboard I can't 'vote with my feet' on is the built-in one on my laptop. As a result I'm hardly ever using my laptop untethered now. I don't think I've ever owned a keyboard I've typed less on than the touchbar macbook. Which means I'm barely using them as laptops, which is a little depressing.
>The oversized caps lock key on keyboards is an inexplicably bad UI choice anyway.
It's probably largely a relic from typewriters when it was originally something of a mechanical necessity and then made more sense than today in the context of filling out forms etc.
It's probably largely a relic from typewriters when it was originally something of a mechanical necessity and then made more sense than today in the context of filling out forms etc.
Sun and Apple both used to have control in that spot. It was a sad day when they surrendered to the inferior PC keyboard layout.
I used to have really strong opinions about keyboards. I even still have a Northgate keyboard which was an "improved" version of the original IBM keyboard. (Which largely mirrored the Selectric.)
But TBH, I use so many different systems these days that I pretty much just accept that keyboard layouts and keyboard feel are going to differ from machine to machine and there's no point fussing about it.
But TBH, I use so many different systems these days that I pretty much just accept that keyboard layouts and keyboard feel are going to differ from machine to machine and there's no point fussing about it.
I haven't used a laptop, desktop, or other computer (windows/mac/Linux) in the last 15 years in which I didn't immediately configure Caps-Lock to be control within 5-minutes of setting up the system. So, to some degree - it's always been control for me.
FWIW, early PC keyboard layouts had the Control key next to the "A", where God intended it to be, too. (Don't have the link handy, but there was a story posted here on HN in the past week or so about the history of the PC keyboard that showed this...)
True, and as a longtime fan of the IBM Model 'M' that had that configuration and was mechanical and built to last with buckling springs, I'm glad I can get one of these:
https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA
https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA
I remapped jk to escape. It’s easily my favorite remap, I don’t even bother with escape on full keyboards/desktops.
how do you type "e_{ijk}"?
For example by typing: e_{ij<c-v>k}
jk is a pretty rare combo to begin with, but when you do need it, just hitting j, and pausing for a second takes that input singularly, then you can type k safely. Slightly sub optimal, yes. But the benefits outweigh the negatives for me.
That's a bit of a pain if you put that into muscle memory and use other Vi interface software that can't be remapped.
Personally I'm in the Caps to Ctrl and use Ctrl-[ for escape camp. Works in my shell, REPLs and in my database clients and anywhere else with a readline interface that isn't Vim.
Even with that I still want a physical escape key.
Personally I'm in the Caps to Ctrl and use Ctrl-[ for escape camp. Works in my shell, REPLs and in my database clients and anywhere else with a readline interface that isn't Vim.
Even with that I still want a physical escape key.
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obligatory xkcd - https://xkcd.com/1172/
Personally an Emacs user---I use the esc key loads too. Best thing I ever did was install Karabiner to remap capslock to esc when tapped, and to ctrl when held down. (One meta key to rule them all!) Have you tried anything like that? Just curious.
I was listening to the Upgrade podcast (from relayfm), the episode that was just released includes an interview with someone from Apple (I think she's the PM for the MBP?)
She specifically mentioned vim users as one of the reasons for bringing back the escape key
She specifically mentioned vim users as one of the reasons for bringing back the escape key
How long ago was "just released"?
Pretty sure Apple employees are locked into heavy NDAs (like many others in tech).
Pretty sure Apple employees are locked into heavy NDAs (like many others in tech).
This is the link to the podcast if anyone is interested: https://www.relay.fm/upgrade/271
Thank you
The tough thing about the touch bar is how often it freezes. It's hard to get used to it when all that is noticeable is the few times a week it does it.
I started using Ctrl-C instead of Escape in Vim years ago (long before the Touchbar) as it means I don't have to move my hands from the home position.
CTRL-[ is standard Vim mapping for Esc.
It's deeper than that. Control-[ is the same keycode as escape. [ is the next character after Z in ASCII, and Control-[ is the next character after Control-Z. It's not a mapping, they are one and the same.
ctrl-c is a poor substitute for several reasons
1. it cancels any modifiers on the insert command
2. it won't trigger any abbreviations
3. it doesn't work with visual-block insert
4. it bypasses InsertLeave autocommands
1. it cancels any modifiers on the insert command
2. it won't trigger any abbreviations
3. it doesn't work with visual-block insert
4. it bypasses InsertLeave autocommands
>ctrl-c is a poor substitute for several reasons
Counterpoint: modal editing is a poor substitute for several reasons ;)
Counterpoint: modal editing is a poor substitute for several reasons ;)
you can map tab to esc inside vim so you dont need to type esc
:imap <tab> <esc>Tab is still important to programmers.
Developers with a new MBP manage by changing Caps Lock Key to Escape. Less pinky travel too.
If you need caps, you can download Karabiner and move caps to something else. I changed mine to pressing both Shift buttons.
Developers with a new MBP manage by changing Caps Lock Key to Escape. Less pinky travel too.
If you need caps, you can download Karabiner and move caps to something else. I changed mine to pressing both Shift buttons.
> tab is still important for programmers
I disagree. If you are a even modestly decent programmer you know to configure autoindentation so that you never need the tab key for anything. I cannot imagine a scenario where I would need the tab key in insert mode (except a very fringe case where I need to enter a tab character in a literal string and for some reason there are no escapes like \t. But then again you can still ^V^I)
I disagree. If you are a even modestly decent programmer you know to configure autoindentation so that you never need the tab key for anything. I cannot imagine a scenario where I would need the tab key in insert mode (except a very fringe case where I need to enter a tab character in a literal string and for some reason there are no escapes like \t. But then again you can still ^V^I)
Lots of editor use the tab key to autocomplete. It's often called "tab completion."
of course, in vim you have ^o for that
So presumably in a whitespace-sensitive language you would always leave insert mode to declare the whitespace?
You can't autoindent python, regardless of how good a programmer you are.
of course you can!
you only need to press ENTER (to create a newline) and BACKSPACE (to exit the current block). You never need to press TAB
you only need to press ENTER (to create a newline) and BACKSPACE (to exit the current block). You never need to press TAB
I wasn't only speaking about Vim. Even then going to Caps is less travel than Tab.
I use Caps less than I use Tab like for switching programs.
Whatever works for you.
I use Caps less than I use Tab like for switching programs.
Whatever works for you.
Ah, no. autoindent is a nice feature that is never perfect.
can you point to a minimal example where vanilla vim autoindent cannot cope with python code editing? I never found any situation where I had to press the tab key
Have you ever refactored anything? Especially in Python, moving a line into a control block requires using the tab key. If you don't have to press the tab key either you're such a god programmer that you have never made a mistake or refactored anything you've ever written, or you're trolling.
there's >> and << for changing the indentation of a line.
And i'm not a good programmer, a good vim user at most
And i'm not a good programmer, a good vim user at most
Use Ctrl-[ for ESC.
Not only is [ always in the same spot, but you don't have to move your fingers off the normal keys or stretch. I was fortunate that a friend told me about that early on, otherwise I couldn't have handled VI, the stretching is so inconvenient (especially so on those old IBM PS/2 keyboards with cubic keys).
Not only is [ always in the same spot, but you don't have to move your fingers off the normal keys or stretch. I was fortunate that a friend told me about that early on, otherwise I couldn't have handled VI, the stretching is so inconvenient (especially so on those old IBM PS/2 keyboards with cubic keys).
> Not only is [ always in the same spot
Only if it's the same keyboard layout. For instance, on the US layout, [ is immediately to the right of P, while on the ABNT-2 layout, it's two keys to the right of P. Meanwhile, ESC is on the same place (top left of the keyboard) in both.
Only if it's the same keyboard layout. For instance, on the US layout, [ is immediately to the right of P, while on the ABNT-2 layout, it's two keys to the right of P. Meanwhile, ESC is on the same place (top left of the keyboard) in both.
I have always used ctr-c. I didn't even really know escape was an option, so I never had to adapt.
They also brought back the 100 watt-hour battery
Who cares about Watt-hours? What matters is how long it runs - I'd be perfectly happy with a laptop that runs a month on a 1.5 Watt-hour AAA battery. Kinda like Amps for vacuum cleaners, this can actually be a measure of INefficiency.
The TSA cares.
I have never used them, but what is wrong with the full-sized left and right arrow keys?
They're hard to locate by touch. Seems counter-intuitive, maybe, but I'm sure I won't be alone in attesting from experience that it does make a difference.
It's much harder to blindly tell where in the arrow key cluster your finger has landed without the blank spaces of the inverted T layout.
I do not understand this at all as the break in between the up/down arrow keys is far more apparent to touch than even the bump on the F key that's supposed to allow you to blindly return to the home keys. If that little bump works, how can a full break not be working for you?
A full-height arrow key is almost identical to the key next to it.
That depends on which key you're referring to. On the Macbook, the left arrow key is right next to the up/down half-keys. If you touch to the right and you're hitting another full key, you're not at the arrow key.
Again, I don't understand how the bump on the F key works but somehow the giant dip in between the two up/down keys is the problem...?
Again, I don't understand how the bump on the F key works but somehow the giant dip in between the two up/down keys is the problem...?
The issue I have is that I will rest my index finger on the Option key instead of the left arrow key because they feel the same. The dip is fine for the up/down keys, but I can't "rest" my index and ring fingers on the arrow keys anymore.
Why not? Rest your middle finger down where you feel the break. Your index and ring fingers are now on the left and right arrow keys.
This is such a non-issue.
This is such a non-issue.
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When it comes to function keys, you either use them lots or rarely and for the former, yes - a physical key is prefered by far. However I see the advantages in other situations with the touchbar, however it would be great if the users had a choice. How hard would it be to have the touchbar in a modular design form that was user changeable and they could fit a row of keys instead?
However, there is always the option of an external keyboard. But then you end up carrying even more peripherals that you end up with a really thin light laptop and a second bag with all the adapters to enable to you to use the laptop in the way you want. For some it does feel like you got sold an electric sports car, yet end up having to tow a caravan about to carry all the spare batteries and other accessories you had in your previous car.
But certainly an opportunity to embrace modular design and allow the end user to customize in a way that has benefits and would win over pundits.
EDIT [spelling and fat finger W's]
However, there is always the option of an external keyboard. But then you end up carrying even more peripherals that you end up with a really thin light laptop and a second bag with all the adapters to enable to you to use the laptop in the way you want. For some it does feel like you got sold an electric sports car, yet end up having to tow a caravan about to carry all the spare batteries and other accessories you had in your previous car.
But certainly an opportunity to embrace modular design and allow the end user to customize in a way that has benefits and would win over pundits.
EDIT [spelling and fat finger W's]
>WHen it comes to function keys, you either use them lots or rarely and for the former, yes - a physical key is prefered by far.
Yeah, I used function keys all the time back in the DOS days. These days, it's mostly to change sound volume.
To your broader point though, modularity can be tough. It inherently adds bulk and cost. And, now, you have connectors that can/will fail.
Yeah, I used function keys all the time back in the DOS days. These days, it's mostly to change sound volume.
To your broader point though, modularity can be tough. It inherently adds bulk and cost. And, now, you have connectors that can/will fail.
We have a modular laptop in our office-- it's a Dell Precision, and practically everything in the machine's serviceable and replaceable (complete with a detailed service manual, provided by Dell). Replaceable, externally accessible disk drives, replaceable RAM, replaceable modular keyboard, even (IIRC) a socketed processor.
The catch is that all that modularity makes the thing massive-- the thing's a good 2-3 inches thick (with lid closed) and weighs nearly 8 pounds. It looks like what you'd get if you took a '90s-era laptop chassis, stretched it to modern screen proportions, and stuck modern innards inside. It's just not practical unless it's going to spend all its time sitting on a desk, and that begs the question of why you wouldn't just buy a desktop in the first place.
The catch is that all that modularity makes the thing massive-- the thing's a good 2-3 inches thick (with lid closed) and weighs nearly 8 pounds. It looks like what you'd get if you took a '90s-era laptop chassis, stretched it to modern screen proportions, and stuck modern innards inside. It's just not practical unless it's going to spend all its time sitting on a desk, and that begs the question of why you wouldn't just buy a desktop in the first place.
On the other side, I have a Thinkpad T470s which has all the ports I could have asked for, a fantastic keyboard and replaceable SSD and expandable RAM but weighs less than a 13" Macbook Pro.
Thinkpads are nice, but that device has a much worse screen, worse processor (significantly older, but... Intel), lower max ram, lower max storage, and (for most people) worse trackpad.
if you comparing to this laptop, you should be comparing the x1 extreme gen 2... oled screen, equiv processor, same ram, lower storage (8tb == another laptop on apple upgrade pricing), trackpoint/nipple v trackpad. at that point your comparing effectively os (win/linux v OS X), on hardware pricing the Thinkpad is quite competitive and cheaper. bonus nvidia for folks that want to do ml, vs amd graphics, which afaics have pretty poor support in any major ml framework.. to which the answer is cloud.. at which point Chromebook ftw.
Except I have set up 100 of those X1 ThinkPads, and I can tell you that the display, in addition to being the stupid too-wide PC aspect ratio, isn't close in quality to what you get with a MB Pro. And as previously mentioned, the trackpad isn't close to Apple's all-glass trackpads, either. And the audio is laughable. And the case isn't as sturdy. And it doesn't have 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports, of course (although some prefer the selection of ports that Lenovo provides).
I was referencing x1 extreme gen2 (aka this year) not last years model to compare to a today's brand new MacBook pro. re screen, to quote..
"My initial impression of the 500-nit panel on the X1E Gen 2, however, is that it’s a clear and straightforward upgrade in every way."
https://www.ultrabookreview.com/31168-lenovo-thinkpad-x1-ext...
and thats not even the oled option
https://www.techeblog.com/lenovo-x1-extreme-gen-2-laptop-rev...
bonus upgradable parts (ssd x 2, memory)
again its not a hw comparison per se, its a price (1-2k discount on hw) vs os sw. re sturdy its mil spec (810g), re ports its 2 usb-c/tbird plus no dongles (cause you have all the ports, hdmi, usb 3.1a x2, ethernet, sd). agreed re trackpad, but Thinkpad users I've noticed (linux mostly) tend towards the trackpoint/nipple to the point of disabling trackpad.
all that said I'm probably getting the MacBook due to apps, but the walled garden on graphics and ml as well as reasonable linux support gives me pause.
random aside, what did Nvidia do that apple won't talk to them..
"My initial impression of the 500-nit panel on the X1E Gen 2, however, is that it’s a clear and straightforward upgrade in every way."
https://www.ultrabookreview.com/31168-lenovo-thinkpad-x1-ext...
and thats not even the oled option
https://www.techeblog.com/lenovo-x1-extreme-gen-2-laptop-rev...
bonus upgradable parts (ssd x 2, memory)
again its not a hw comparison per se, its a price (1-2k discount on hw) vs os sw. re sturdy its mil spec (810g), re ports its 2 usb-c/tbird plus no dongles (cause you have all the ports, hdmi, usb 3.1a x2, ethernet, sd). agreed re trackpad, but Thinkpad users I've noticed (linux mostly) tend towards the trackpoint/nipple to the point of disabling trackpad.
all that said I'm probably getting the MacBook due to apps, but the walled garden on graphics and ml as well as reasonable linux support gives me pause.
random aside, what did Nvidia do that apple won't talk to them..
Just a little side note to correct your facts: no, the x2 extreme gen2 does not have ethernet.
And if you think a trackpoint is any kind of substitute for a real trackpad, well, that's a joke.
And if you think a trackpoint is any kind of substitute for a real trackpad, well, that's a joke.
> Just a little side note to correct your facts: no, the x2 extreme gen2 does not have ethernet.
Incorrect - it does not have a RJ45 connector, but it does have Ethernet, it just requires a dongle which may or may not come with the machine depending on the region its purchased in.
The benefit of the on board Ethernet is the fact you can PXE boot over it and other enterprise management benefits you don't get with a USB Ethernet adapter.
Incorrect - it does not have a RJ45 connector, but it does have Ethernet, it just requires a dongle which may or may not come with the machine depending on the region its purchased in.
The benefit of the on board Ethernet is the fact you can PXE boot over it and other enterprise management benefits you don't get with a USB Ethernet adapter.
Apple sometimes makes mistakes, but their trackpads are not one of those. Exponentially better than what Lenovo uses for ThinkPads.
The current (post ~2015 or so) Precision models aren't like that. They're pretty sleek and competitive.
No socketed CPU or externally accessible disk drives, but you do get easily replaceable RAM, drives and battery if you're willing to pop the cover.
Keyboard and other components are replaceable individually as well, although it might be somewhat labor intensive in terms of disassembly.
No socketed CPU or externally accessible disk drives, but you do get easily replaceable RAM, drives and battery if you're willing to pop the cover.
Keyboard and other components are replaceable individually as well, although it might be somewhat labor intensive in terms of disassembly.
> How hard would it be to have the touchbar in a modular design form that was user changeable and they could fit a row of keys instead?
Pretty hard, I'd think. It would probably make the computer thicker and/or clunkier.
Pretty hard, I'd think. It would probably make the computer thicker and/or clunkier.
Heck, I wonder why they don't have BOTH function keys AND a touch bar. It looks like they could shrink the oversized touchpad slightly to recover enough space. Is it because the cost would be too high? Is it because it would ruin their design? Or is there some other reason?
I would love this. I have the touch bar set to show my dock at all times which just clicks for me. I'd love to still have function keys for IDE shortcuts in this configuration.
There is plenty of room to do both if they insist upon the stupid touch bar.
About the touchbar, I don't like it, for me it's not what the mediocre features it brought somewhat irrelevant most time, probably it can be a useful feature if it was designed better.
By nature, touchbar is a partial display and partial input device, blend it in with keyboard(a purely input) on the same flat surface angle, doesn't feel right. Currently, the only time I look at touchbar is when I need to click on touchbar, 50% of functionality just wasted in this sense.
If Apple kept the hinge design in pre butterfly keyboard macbook pro, that would be good place for touchbar. The location is more close to display, touchbar can act properly as a small assist display, also kept the keyboard part a pure mechanical input. The 45 degree elevation angle is also nicer.
If you still have pre butterfly retina macbook pro, just touch that hinge part, you may like what I said.
I did a quick low res mockup here: https://twitter.com/lostylogic/status/1194875389165760512/ph...
By nature, touchbar is a partial display and partial input device, blend it in with keyboard(a purely input) on the same flat surface angle, doesn't feel right. Currently, the only time I look at touchbar is when I need to click on touchbar, 50% of functionality just wasted in this sense.
If Apple kept the hinge design in pre butterfly keyboard macbook pro, that would be good place for touchbar. The location is more close to display, touchbar can act properly as a small assist display, also kept the keyboard part a pure mechanical input. The 45 degree elevation angle is also nicer.
If you still have pre butterfly retina macbook pro, just touch that hinge part, you may like what I said.
I did a quick low res mockup here: https://twitter.com/lostylogic/status/1194875389165760512/ph...
I feel like putting a screen in a place that's prone to get quite warm may not be a good idea.
I like the Touch Bar a lot. Not having esc was the only gripe I had with it but I personally much prefer the multifunctional bar over some static f keys
I'm curious, do you usually blind type? If so, what advantage does it bring to you to look down on your keys? Also, in an optimal seating position (elbows at 90 degrees), do your fingers obscure the visibility of the touch bar?
Not parent, but I'm also a user that likes the Touch Bar (see comment history).
To answer,
> Do you usually blind type?
Yes.
> If so, what advantage does it bring to you to look down on your keys?
For simple actions (like opening a new tab) there is no need to look down on keys. IMO this is little Apple's fault, whenever I use a tabbable & Touch Bar-usable application I set the new tab button on the right. I usually place the trash button (on Finder, Mail and some other apps) on the middle of the Touch Bar.
For some more complex actions (like selecting an emoji/suggestion, or moving between photos, etc...) it's just as fast/faster to glance over and move your fingers instead of using shortcuts/trackpad.
> Also, in an optimal seating position (elbows at 90 degrees)
I'm not sure if I'm in optimal seating position, but... (If you're meaning if my elbows are on the same height of the display yes)
> do your fingers obscure the visibility of the touch bar?
No, not at all. I can clearly see the Touch Bar whether my fingers are.
To answer,
> Do you usually blind type?
Yes.
> If so, what advantage does it bring to you to look down on your keys?
For simple actions (like opening a new tab) there is no need to look down on keys. IMO this is little Apple's fault, whenever I use a tabbable & Touch Bar-usable application I set the new tab button on the right. I usually place the trash button (on Finder, Mail and some other apps) on the middle of the Touch Bar.
For some more complex actions (like selecting an emoji/suggestion, or moving between photos, etc...) it's just as fast/faster to glance over and move your fingers instead of using shortcuts/trackpad.
> Also, in an optimal seating position (elbows at 90 degrees)
I'm not sure if I'm in optimal seating position, but... (If you're meaning if my elbows are on the same height of the display yes)
> do your fingers obscure the visibility of the touch bar?
No, not at all. I can clearly see the Touch Bar whether my fingers are.
What do you actually use the F keys for? I haven't used them in so long that I only remember what F2 and F5 did.
Debugging: step, step into, step out, run/continue
You can easily reconfigure keyboard shortcuts in most IDEs. The function key row was never ergonomically placed to begin with. My current keyboard doesn't have one either (ErgoDox).
These actions are also not that important to be able to hit very quickly. Back when I did use function keys, I usually had to look anyway, because they're so far away from home row, and the time between using them is usually quite long. And even though I knew the function keys purpose in an IDE, I would never know them in any other apps, leaving that row useless when not programming. (Well, I use them for volume and brightness control, but again.. it's not a muscle memory action anyway)
I do think fundamentally speaking the Touchbar is the right idea. It's not better for everyone, obviously. But it's probably a bit better for most people. I'm just not convinced it's a big enough improvement to make the added cost worth it. It probably still ends up being mostly unused, which is worse when it's an expensive touch display instead of extra keys.
Personally I'd drop the whole row, maybe but the speakers up there instead, and make the keyboard wider.. put in keys between the two halfs of the keyboard like TypeMatrix or ErgoDox.. but that's never gonna happen
These actions are also not that important to be able to hit very quickly. Back when I did use function keys, I usually had to look anyway, because they're so far away from home row, and the time between using them is usually quite long. And even though I knew the function keys purpose in an IDE, I would never know them in any other apps, leaving that row useless when not programming. (Well, I use them for volume and brightness control, but again.. it's not a muscle memory action anyway)
I do think fundamentally speaking the Touchbar is the right idea. It's not better for everyone, obviously. But it's probably a bit better for most people. I'm just not convinced it's a big enough improvement to make the added cost worth it. It probably still ends up being mostly unused, which is worse when it's an expensive touch display instead of extra keys.
Personally I'd drop the whole row, maybe but the speakers up there instead, and make the keyboard wider.. put in keys between the two halfs of the keyboard like TypeMatrix or ErgoDox.. but that's never gonna happen
What are you guys doing that you touch type using FN keys? Touchbar is far better — you can’t scrub audio or video. You can adjust things with more granularity with sliders. It’s contextual.
I don’t remember ever using a hardware F6 or F4 key in my life, but the touchbar I use all the time.
I don’t remember ever using a hardware F6 or F4 key in my life, but the touchbar I use all the time.
Lots of software uses Fn key bindings by default. IntelliJ & mc come to mind first, but there are many others. Sometimes they can be remapped, but given the number of key bindings required by pro software, replacing roughly 1/5 of the keys with a silly little nontactile screen is a nonstarter for me. I never look at the keyboard (that's what the real screen is for). Indeed this was the precipitating factor driving me away from the Apple 'ecosystem' in 2018.
Also not parent.
I do blind type but I love the Touch Bar. There are many CAD programs that I use approximately monthly and I can never remember which F keys does what exactly. In my office I have cheat sheets on the wall but when out of office having icons makes using those applications much better.
I do blind type but I love the Touch Bar. There are many CAD programs that I use approximately monthly and I can never remember which F keys does what exactly. In my office I have cheat sheets on the wall but when out of office having icons makes using those applications much better.
I have my touchbar display the time, battery percentage and current song, so when I look down it's mostly to look at these. I also have a script that displays the last line of a particular file, so if I pipe a script's output in there I can look at its progress. I can swipe anywhere with two fingers to change the volume, three fingers is ctrl+tab (that one isn't useful, I need to figure out a better use), four fingers is brightness. I like it better than the F keys.
I did have to remap Caps Lock to ESC, because ESC on the touchbar was nigh unusable.
I did have to remap Caps Lock to ESC, because ESC on the touchbar was nigh unusable.
How do you get all that functionality? Especially the multi finger swiping and the last line of the file
BetterTouchTool. It's not free, but it's cheap enough, and it lets you do a lot of cool things (including the multi finger swiping which you can assign to anything you want). You can write AppleScript routines and assign them to buttons, or have them run every n milliseconds to display something, which is what I did for the last line of the file thing.
I do know where the keys are, but don't know what the Function keys do in 90%+ of the software I use.
Even where I use keyboard shortcuts frequently, such as VSCode, the Function keys are not really involved because they are rather far away.
incorporating a display is a perfect middle ground for the thousands of shortcuts you will never use enough to remember.
Even where I use keyboard shortcuts frequently, such as VSCode, the Function keys are not really involved because they are rather far away.
incorporating a display is a perfect middle ground for the thousands of shortcuts you will never use enough to remember.
Has the Touch Bar been reliable for you?
From very early on, the one on mine has been very flakey, often going blank until a reboot. A few of my colleagues have had the same problem.
From very early on, the one on mine has been very flakey, often going blank until a reboot. A few of my colleagues have had the same problem.
I’m sure someone has suggested this at some point but why not physical keys with an lcd underneath each key? This would allow those keys to be fully customizable and be worthy of the “Pro” designation.
Or even both the touchbar and the physical keys on the pro models? 7-row keyboards are a thing.
How about e-ink instead? Having 100 individual LCDs seems like it's be energy expensive.
The problem with both of these is they'd just be expensive, period. And solving a problem I don't often have.
The problem with both of these is they'd just be expensive, period. And solving a problem I don't often have.
Reminds me of a phone I used to have: https://gizmodo.com/samsung-alias-2-e-ink-flip-phone-review-...
The keyboard was fully E-ink, so it changed based on the app or orientation of your phone. It was pretty awesome!
The keyboard was fully E-ink, so it changed based on the app or orientation of your phone. It was pretty awesome!
Because it’s expensive, bulky, and unnecessary. Something like this already exists: the Optimus Maximus keyboard. And while it’s a cool concept, it’s not without its rough edges. [1]
[1] https://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/maximus/
[1] https://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/maximus/
Wasn't the Maximus made with tech that is now 10 years old? I can imagine that costs have decreased by at least an order of magnitude by now, now that oled is much more mainstream.
I wanted one of these when I first spotted it, but in hindsight it would be too dependent on software to work and I'd probably end up spending ages setting it up when the right thing to do would be to get blank key caps.
"Keys" on the touch bar are more dynamic. Buttons can have different width, you can show text, sliders for e.g. volume. It's not a 1-to-1 mapping.
I'm sure there's a prototype of this sitting around somewhere in Apple headquarters, either waiting for some patent to expire, or some key component to become cheap/thin/reliable enough.
Fixed, inflexible keys defeat the purpose of a screen that can show anything.
You can't put a big control on a single key.
Agreed, as long as I am forced to use the TouchBar, it personally for me is not "the world’s best pro notebook".
Could there be more pros than you?
Sure, but besides a very low number of comments on HN I've never seen anyone who really appreciated the TouchBar (and the increased price it causes). Say Apple would offer a model with and without TouchBar and the TouchBar model would cost $400 more, how many people would be willing to pay that? I bet it would be less than 5%, maybe even less than 1%.
For shuffling VMs it's really helpful.
Forget being forced to use it, I'd like to not be forced to pay for it. How much does the price of the MBP go up because of all of the parts required for the touch bar?
So the keyboard guaranteed to break within the first 6 months on a 3k laptop is not among the worst two things?
> "the two worst things about the original Touch Bar MBPs - the lack of a physical Escape key, and the full-size left and right arrow keys."
The "butterfly mechanism" keyboards are awful, unreliable, and get worse with time, so I'm very glad to see them go. Likewise, the return of the physical Escape key is very welcome.
But honestly, the design of the arrow keys has never bothered me in the slightest. If anything, the present configuration is slightly better because it's aesthetically cleaner and gives you a larger surface to hit the left and right arrows.
The "butterfly mechanism" keyboards are awful, unreliable, and get worse with time, so I'm very glad to see them go. Likewise, the return of the physical Escape key is very welcome.
But honestly, the design of the arrow keys has never bothered me in the slightest. If anything, the present configuration is slightly better because it's aesthetically cleaner and gives you a larger surface to hit the left and right arrows.
But when not looking at the keyboard, having full height left and right arrow keys makes them feel just like the nearby Option and ? keys. Having a distinct arrow-key-group shape makes them easier to locate by touch.
You can't feel the break in between the up/down arrow keys by touch?
It's not always easy. If I need to quickly move to the arrow keys (I touch type, so no looking!), I have about 80-85% success finding the right key on the first press... with the inverted-T layout, that's about 99%.
There's something weird about the way my brain handles the key being the same size as the option key next to it, and the fact that the tops of all those keys are exactly the same.
There's something weird about the way my brain handles the key being the same size as the option key next to it, and the fact that the tops of all those keys are exactly the same.
If you touch type then learn the OS X shortcuts of CTRL-B, CTRL-F, CTRL-P, CTRL-N, far more efficient than moving your hand over to the arrow keys and works in (virtually) all places you are editing text.
It doesn’t work in the menus for example. The cursor keys are still important.
I don't think I have anything special configured for my Mojave setup and these seem to work for me. In particular, I use Ctrl + Shift + F2 (on my external keyboard) to focus the menubar and then I can use Ctrl-b and Ctrl-f to navigate back (left) and forward (right) between menus, Enter to select a menu, and then Ctrl-n or Ctrl-p to navigate next/previous entries in the menu, with Enter again to select.
Interesting! I always use Cmd-Shift-/, which focuses the search field in the help menu, and Ctrl-b and Ctrl-f do not escape from there.
But focusing the menu bar with Ctrl-F2 does indeed allow me to use Ctrl-f and Ctrl-b. And after hitting Return to open a menu, I can use Ctrl-n and Ctrl-p to navigate down and up.
Interesting.
I will have to try more, but I still think that there are places in macOS where Ctrl-b and Ctrl-f do not work, and I have to use the arrow keys, instead.
But focusing the menu bar with Ctrl-F2 does indeed allow me to use Ctrl-f and Ctrl-b. And after hitting Return to open a menu, I can use Ctrl-n and Ctrl-p to navigate down and up.
Interesting.
I will have to try more, but I still think that there are places in macOS where Ctrl-b and Ctrl-f do not work, and I have to use the arrow keys, instead.
When you're searching for the arrow keys, the break is one thin line only in the middle of one key. When the keys are half height, there is are two large gaps to find. The difference is a few mm vs almost a cm and 3 targets to find vs one.
I hate the full-size left and right arrow keys because it means I can't easily use my sense of touch to find the arrow keys. I mistype them all the time now, even after months of use. That was never a problem with the previous inverted-T design.
Many PC laptop keyboards have full-size keys for all four arrows. Tiny keys for a feature I use so frequently is user-hostile, whether it's 2 or 4 of them.
They also usually have an awful-looking extra row just for the arrow keys. And FWIW, I find that the inverted-T arrangement is even easier to quickly find by touch than full-height arrow keys.
It’s not about the size for me. Sure the full height inverted T is easy to use. The half height inverted T also works. But the one that isn’t inverted T is difficult.
Seconded. I frequently mistype L/R as up/down, and this is infuriating when striking 'command' + arrow to go to the beginning/end of the line (an extremely common op for me), and instead going to the top/bottom of the file, completely losing my place.
(Of course that particular problem would be less of an issue if the keyboard had home/end/pgUp/pgDn, which I'm still sore about, years after they got rid of them).
Arrow keys are so important I might almost want them all full size, in a "+" configuration.
(Of course that particular problem would be less of an issue if the keyboard had home/end/pgUp/pgDn, which I'm still sore about, years after they got rid of them).
Arrow keys are so important I might almost want them all full size, in a "+" configuration.
I wonder -- is this for a 13" or 15" laptop? I'm curious because after this thread I was checking on how I tend to find the arrow keys. I have a 13" model and finding the edge of the computer itself seems to help me find the appropriate keys.
15".
It's a good 1.5" from the right arrow key to the edge.
It's a good 1.5" from the right arrow key to the edge.
That’s what I was guessing. I’d bet most of the people who don’t like the current (I guess now, the old) arrow key arrangement also have a 15”.
It’s honestly not something that I ever really noticed with a 13”.
It’s honestly not something that I ever really noticed with a 13”.
Sure, but it's still a maladaptation to a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.
The "butterfly mechanism" keyboards never bothered me. I actually like the feel of my MBP's keyboard. Likewise the software Escape key never bothered me.
But honestly, the design of the arrow keys is super important. With the full-height left/right keys it's hard to quickly find the arrow keys by feel. The new (old) arrow key design is honestly what I'm most interested in with this computer after the 16" screen.
But honestly, the design of the arrow keys is super important. With the full-height left/right keys it's hard to quickly find the arrow keys by feel. The new (old) arrow key design is honestly what I'm most interested in with this computer after the 16" screen.
How is it hard? They're at the bottom right so you can find them by feel pretty quickly.
The lady and right keys are easy. But up and down are difficult. With the half height left and right keys it’s easier to find the up and down keys. The down key is between left and right and the up key is an island (or a peninsula at least). Does that make sense?
I bought the last half height model when I upgraded my MBP 13”.
I bought the last half height model when I upgraded my MBP 13”.
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I can find the up and down easily because they are shaped differently. They are the only keys split horizontally, and the connecting edges are curved inward unlike the other keys. I find them easy to feel fore. I am glad the new keyboard solves this problem for others though, I don't think the full-height left/right keys are particularly better.
I hadn't given it much thought until your post, but on my 2017 13" MBP, here's how I seem to do it:
1. Put my right hand in approximately the correct location.
2. With my middle finger, find the space between the up/down keys.
3. Now my right hand's index finger is above the "left" key, and my right hand's ring finger is above the "right" key.
1. Put my right hand in approximately the correct location.
2. With my middle finger, find the space between the up/down keys.
3. Now my right hand's index finger is above the "left" key, and my right hand's ring finger is above the "right" key.
exactly. arrows are something that always bothered me in my mac , not butterfly ( to some extent yes ) or not esc.
I am with you as far as the butterfly mechanism (aside from robustness issues), but for me the arrow keys are fine.
The bigger issue for me is lack of physical volume controls. I think it's extremely important for any device which produces sound to have a physical mute button. This would be less of an issue if the touch-bar were more reliable, but it often doesn't respond immediately, or else gets frozen and unresponsive, for instance with the volume slider up.
The bigger issue for me is lack of physical volume controls. I think it's extremely important for any device which produces sound to have a physical mute button. This would be less of an issue if the touch-bar were more reliable, but it often doesn't respond immediately, or else gets frozen and unresponsive, for instance with the volume slider up.
I know the subject has been beaten to death but still, as someone who was pleasantly surprised by the butterfly keyboard, I am living a nightmare with my just 2 month old MacBook Pro with keys starting to lose travel and I feel like it’s only a matter of time before bein completely stuck. To the point I’m now afraid to use the keyboard, feeling like everytime I use it without the external keyboard keys become more stuck. I’m so disappointed and was misguided on how the new generation had less problems.
are you a touch typist? because lifting your hand, and repositioning it onto a grid of undifferentiated keys is MUCH harder when you can't feel the shape of the inverted T and can't see it (because you're not looking at the keyboard or because you're visually impaired).
Remapping CapsLock+hjkl to arrows IS productive.(oh, and CapsLock+Space to Enter, too!)
Remember when Apple's keys had a dot on the D and K instead of a line on F and J?
Escape key issue was so bad that a lot of my devs mapped caps lock to the escape key. Butterfly keyboard also has some weird workarounds with people carrying around mechanical keyboard.
To be fair, mapping caps to escape has been a thing for years and years. I started doing that once I learned vim about five years back, when I still had an older MacBook Air with a physical escape key.
The touchbar has a lot of uses for many people. Developers may not see that much benefit from it (unless they use a native IDE or text editor), but for people who use native apps, the touchbar can be really useful.
Getting a physical escape key back and going with a more reliable keyboard design are big wins.
Getting a physical escape key back and going with a more reliable keyboard design are big wins.
I wonder if the screen reflective coating is better too. AFAIK, since introduction of retina screens of MacBooks (2012) it's a matter of time that the reflective coating will start to peel off and will leave ugly blotches.
This seems highly anecdotal. I have a launch 2012 retina still with no peeling.
I guess, though anyone I knew who used retina macbooks had issue with screen peeling off within 1-3 years of use.
There was a replacement program for a bit, so there was a possibility to change the screen, though after some time changed screens are peeling off too.
I know even an anecdote where almost brand new 2016 rmbp after working outside, had a spots of peeled off coating, because apparently light dust have scratched it. Thankfully Apple replaced the screen.
There was a replacement program for a bit, so there was a possibility to change the screen, though after some time changed screens are peeling off too.
I know even an anecdote where almost brand new 2016 rmbp after working outside, had a spots of peeled off coating, because apparently light dust have scratched it. Thankfully Apple replaced the screen.
I wonder if it has any correlation with people who close the lid but continue running heavy workloads on their machine. The extra heat could possibly be a cause for delamination.
Nah, I see it on student laptops all the time (who aren't running anything with the lid off).
Also not correlated to putting pressure on the lid with it closed, I've lugged mine around in a backpack full of stuff for years and have no peeling issues.
Also not correlated to putting pressure on the lid with it closed, I've lugged mine around in a backpack full of stuff for years and have no peeling issues.
There was a recall for this delamination issue in earlier MBPs. I think even the last generation didn't have this problem anymore.
Does anyone else remember when the macbooks came with two options for screen coating? The original anti-glare coating cost a few nits of brightness and some people had Feelings about this. I can't even recall now when they got rid of the option. Probably when the backlight got more powerful?
I remember when the anti-glare was the default and you had to pay a few quid more for the glossy.
Then they changed so the default was glossy and anti-glare was more expensive (but, IIRC, had more resolution).
The retina display is the first one I remember where the anti-glare option was not available.
Then they changed so the default was glossy and anti-glare was more expensive (but, IIRC, had more resolution).
The retina display is the first one I remember where the anti-glare option was not available.
You're correct the 2012 model was when they stopped offering the Anti-glare screen - it was 1680x1050(if i recall?) compared to the default glossy screen's 1440x900, i recall there also being a 1680x1050 glossy display upgrade available too, at a glance the two could be distinguished by the aluminium bezel on the anti-glare display.
I picked up a grey market anti-glare display assembly (upper clamshell) for my 2011 model back in 2012 or so and it dutifully served another few years.
I picked up a grey market anti-glare display assembly (upper clamshell) for my 2011 model back in 2012 or so and it dutifully served another few years.
> perhaps this is a sign that Apple is finally interested in listening to feedback from its long-term customer base
What makes you think they stopped? You know it takes a couple years to design and ship hardware at this level (as well as to design the production lines to be able to build a few million more copies), yes?
It’s not like a web app where they can change, test, PR, and deploy in a few days or weeks or months. There is a lot of preproduction work that goes into building the kind of objects Apple is now famous for and are almost taken for granted.
What makes you think they stopped? You know it takes a couple years to design and ship hardware at this level (as well as to design the production lines to be able to build a few million more copies), yes?
It’s not like a web app where they can change, test, PR, and deploy in a few days or weeks or months. There is a lot of preproduction work that goes into building the kind of objects Apple is now famous for and are almost taken for granted.
What I really don’t get is the Touch Bar could just sit in between the number keys and function keys. Even on 13” models there is space for both and a giant touch pad.
They have been forced to add it to just about every model to keep people from downgrading to avoid the thing. Which ok saved me money, but I would expect this to get the point across.
They have been forced to add it to just about every model to keep people from downgrading to avoid the thing. Which ok saved me money, but I would expect this to get the point across.
I'd want the touch bar to sit on top of the function keys, but I agree.
I also would be much happier if it was just easier to turn it off or if it at least made each touch action take 200ms or so so that I don't accidentally hit it all the time.
I also would be much happier if it was just easier to turn it off or if it at least made each touch action take 200ms or so so that I don't accidentally hit it all the time.
How 'bout a full-size up and down key? I use those all the time and those scrunched keys are easy to make mistakes on.
The touch pad is ridiculously huge now, going by my greasy finger smears I maybe use only 50% of the total area. They could easy sacrifice some of that real estate to put the touchbar as row above the function keys and feature a full size set of offset arrow keys.
Agree, I often end up brushing the touch pad accidentally with the heel of my hand while typing, and inadvertently moving the cursor somewhere up the page. Maybe someone else can weigh in on any advantages to having such a large touch pad.
You can drag further with it or use it at a higher sensitivity and drag as much as you used to. There are also more places you can start dragging so it’s more likely you will naturally touch your finger down and start dragging.
I predict that from now on the touch bar will slowly become smaller and smaller until it disappears completely. It would have been better if they'd gotten rid of it entirely in one iteration though.
I like it. It helps me control my music, volume and VMs all at once without having to bother with windows or holding down key modifiers
Yeah me too, but I don't like accidentally touching something and then being out of context. Also happens with the gigantic track pad. It's really annoying.
I was sorta kinda OK with the missing escape key. For me the biggest keyboard improvement is a return to the inverted-T arrow layout.
> ... the lack of a physical Escape key, and the full-size left and right arrow keys.
Seems that if you scream hard enough AAPL listens:
> What Apple emphasized is simply that they listened to the complaints from professional MacBook users. They recognized how important the Escape key is to developers — they even mentioned Vim by name during a developer tool demo.
* https://daringfireball.net/2019/11/16-inch_macbook_pro_first...
Seems that if you scream hard enough AAPL listens:
> What Apple emphasized is simply that they listened to the complaints from professional MacBook users. They recognized how important the Escape key is to developers — they even mentioned Vim by name during a developer tool demo.
* https://daringfireball.net/2019/11/16-inch_macbook_pro_first...
I almost never use the function keys and I am a programmer. They made the right call on that one. Just because you use an editor that makes use of rarely used keys doesn’t mean that they are a universal truth.
Do you debug and use the keys to control it? This is my biggest gripe, since most IDEs (and browsers if web dev) map debugging to the Fn keys, so I end up using them a LOT. I hate clicking the debugging icons, particularly since I tend to use a few different editors/browsers and they are all in different spots.
[deleted]
those were not the worst things. a keyboard that breaks a week after you get it was the worst thing. the second worse thing is this redefinition of a computer into a big ipad. where does my sd card go? i cant plugin to the hdmi tv at a friends or a board room? why does it have a headphone jack? if we dont need it on our phone why do we need it on a laptop (lol)? oh yeah because inch by inch... apple is the epitome of capitalism, good and bad, and lately more bad than good.
> where does my sd card go? i cant plugin to the hdmi tv at a friends or a board room?
Apple has a long and storied history of removing drives and ports that it considers obsolete. No one should be surprised at this point.
Apple has a long and storied history of removing drives and ports that it considers obsolete. No one should be surprised at this point.
I have to say that I agree with the parent post. I specifically haven't upgraded because:
1. no hdmi
2. no sd
3. escape key
4. keyboard
5. magsafe
6. usb a
I admit that maybe #6 is a little Luddite-like but there will be too many leads around which are usb-a which I'll need to use an adapter on. Right now, this is genuinely annoying that I need to carry around all these adapters which all cost quite a lot each.
Talking to one of my colleagues who has one of the 13" macbooks. He said that you just changed to be more careful about the lack of magsafe. Maybe I'll learn?
For HDMI. This is dumb for everyone who will ever have to do a presentation.
For SD. Tre-annoying, since my camera is usb-a. So I have to be $30 for an sd card reader. Yet another adapter.
Maybe someone should do some photos of a laptop with all the leads hanging off?! Then the designers might appreciate that it looks crap and do something about it....
Conclusion: you buy the MacBook Pro with max memory; upgrade the graphics card (why not... it isn't that much); up the disk size; buy a usb c adapter; buy a hdmi adapter; buy a sd card reader; buy a lightning cable converter too. That totals $5000. Ouch.
I admit that maybe #6 is a little Luddite-like but there will be too many leads around which are usb-a which I'll need to use an adapter on. Right now, this is genuinely annoying that I need to carry around all these adapters which all cost quite a lot each.
Talking to one of my colleagues who has one of the 13" macbooks. He said that you just changed to be more careful about the lack of magsafe. Maybe I'll learn?
For HDMI. This is dumb for everyone who will ever have to do a presentation.
For SD. Tre-annoying, since my camera is usb-a. So I have to be $30 for an sd card reader. Yet another adapter.
Maybe someone should do some photos of a laptop with all the leads hanging off?! Then the designers might appreciate that it looks crap and do something about it....
Conclusion: you buy the MacBook Pro with max memory; upgrade the graphics card (why not... it isn't that much); up the disk size; buy a usb c adapter; buy a hdmi adapter; buy a sd card reader; buy a lightning cable converter too. That totals $5000. Ouch.
> He said that you just changed to be more careful about the lack of magsafe. Maybe I'll learn?
Having magsafe on my retina MacBook, with little kids in the house, may have been the best leisure hack I've ever enjoyed. The hack came from lack of anxiety about the kids tripping over the cord and bringing the laptop crashing to the floor, enabling me to simply set the machine down, walk away, and play with the kids instead. Now I would have to put the laptop somewhere out-of-sight in order for it to charge.
Having magsafe on my retina MacBook, with little kids in the house, may have been the best leisure hack I've ever enjoyed. The hack came from lack of anxiety about the kids tripping over the cord and bringing the laptop crashing to the floor, enabling me to simply set the machine down, walk away, and play with the kids instead. Now I would have to put the laptop somewhere out-of-sight in order for it to charge.
I'm hoping that someone brings to market a simple usb-c extension cable that has a magnetic middle bit that if pulled splits the table in half.
> I'm astonished and pleased to see they walked back the two worst things about the original Touch Bar MBPs
Apple still hasn't walked back on mandatory notarization on Catalina.
In January 2020, they're removing the option to run software that isn't locally compiled or notarized[1].
[1] https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=09032019a
Apple still hasn't walked back on mandatory notarization on Catalina.
In January 2020, they're removing the option to run software that isn't locally compiled or notarized[1].
[1] https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=09032019a
I believe that is not correct, you can still run unsigned apps, you just have to enable them in System Preferences >> Security and Privacy.
https://www.howtogeek.com/443611/how-macos-catalinas-new-sec... (middle of page)
https://www.howtogeek.com/443611/how-macos-catalinas-new-sec... (middle of page)
Or secondary click on them and open them from the menu that pops up.
Worst is certainly removal of 32-bit support. I'll personally never be using anything past Mojave. It would literally cost me from purchased software that is now incompatible and will not be updated.
To say Apple has lost its way would be an understatement. Apple is actively detrimenting those who have stayed in its ecosystem for decades. As a professional audio engineer, I refuse to lose several of my plugins to a quote-unquote 'upgrade.'
If I lose access to my software, you are not 'upgrading' my OS, you are removing access to what worked perfectly before.
I also refuse to lose Adobe CS6, by which I've paid a full license for. No, I have no interest in updates. I had no interest in updates post-CS3, to be honest.
There is no benefit to the lack of 32-bit support that could be worth losing it. If they did this because they're moving to ARM, fuck them. Don't let your behind the scenes process fuck with my day-to-day ability to work.
I'm literally going to have to leave behind my career as an iOS developer - I refuse by principle to purchase new Apple products ('vote with your money') - and I certainly refuse to accept an 'upgrade' that annihilates the usability of some of my most important software, in the name of...what? What possible benefit does removing 32-bit support lend to the customer? None. It's literally just a fuck you to me for supporting them for years. What a damn shame.
To say Apple has lost its way would be an understatement. Apple is actively detrimenting those who have stayed in its ecosystem for decades. As a professional audio engineer, I refuse to lose several of my plugins to a quote-unquote 'upgrade.'
If I lose access to my software, you are not 'upgrading' my OS, you are removing access to what worked perfectly before.
I also refuse to lose Adobe CS6, by which I've paid a full license for. No, I have no interest in updates. I had no interest in updates post-CS3, to be honest.
There is no benefit to the lack of 32-bit support that could be worth losing it. If they did this because they're moving to ARM, fuck them. Don't let your behind the scenes process fuck with my day-to-day ability to work.
I'm literally going to have to leave behind my career as an iOS developer - I refuse by principle to purchase new Apple products ('vote with your money') - and I certainly refuse to accept an 'upgrade' that annihilates the usability of some of my most important software, in the name of...what? What possible benefit does removing 32-bit support lend to the customer? None. It's literally just a fuck you to me for supporting them for years. What a damn shame.
> To say Apple has lost its way would be an understatement. Apple is actively detrimenting those who have stayed in its ecosystem for decades.
Like they did with the transition from SCSI/ADB to USB, or the transition from Mac OS 9 to Mac OS X, or the transition from PPC to Intel, or the transition from 30 pin to lightning, or...
Apple may or may not have lost its way, but dropping support for old software/hardware is something they've been doing consistently for a long time. There's nothing new about it.
Like they did with the transition from SCSI/ADB to USB, or the transition from Mac OS 9 to Mac OS X, or the transition from PPC to Intel, or the transition from 30 pin to lightning, or...
Apple may or may not have lost its way, but dropping support for old software/hardware is something they've been doing consistently for a long time. There's nothing new about it.
I was there for most of that, but loosing 32-bit feels different to me. For the physical peripherals, I could still use them on old hardware. Forcing me to remain on an old OS is far more severe and I too (and everyone in my extended family) ran into this. In particular, my relatives depend on the old Microsoft office packages they bought eons ago. "Fixing" the problem Apple gifted us means buying and learning new software (and AFAICT, you can't even buy Office anymore, only rent it).
This is extremely disappointing and I'm not even sure what to do next time their hardware dies (which has happened multiple times).
This is extremely disappointing and I'm not even sure what to do next time their hardware dies (which has happened multiple times).
You can buy permanent licenses of Office 2019, it’s $250.
Do you still have to register an account with Microsoft?
IOW, as updates can go through the MacStore, can you use the permanent License of Office 2019 on the Mac without ever connecting to Microsoft?
IOW, as updates can go through the MacStore, can you use the permanent License of Office 2019 on the Mac without ever connecting to Microsoft?
It’s not so different from 10.7 dropping Rosetta, which led to a similar scenario where upgrading your OS meant a bunch of old PPC apps could no longer run.
Again I’m not defending Apple, just pointing out that all of this has happened before and all of this will happen again with Apple.
If you value compatibility with old binaries highly, Windows is a much better platform for that than macOS.
Again I’m not defending Apple, just pointing out that all of this has happened before and all of this will happen again with Apple.
If you value compatibility with old binaries highly, Windows is a much better platform for that than macOS.
There was a reason for that - a benefit for users - there was a platform change, whose speed increases made an actual legit argument for the platform change.
There is no benefit to removal of 32-bit apps. There is no purpose, from the user's end, other than fucking them over, that I can see.
There's not even any reason given.
Rumours of an ARM platform change do not an ARM platform change make. Catalina is worthless and detrimental to me as an upgrade.
There is no benefit to removal of 32-bit apps. There is no purpose, from the user's end, other than fucking them over, that I can see.
There's not even any reason given.
Rumours of an ARM platform change do not an ARM platform change make. Catalina is worthless and detrimental to me as an upgrade.
You can buy Office just fine. They push 365, but that's just a licensing model, you can buy regular licenses just as easily.
Ok, thanks, but it doesn't change that it's an unwanted expense and, the worst part, require new training.
Of course I already just learned that most of my Steam library would also turn into a pumpkin if I upgraded. Seems like I'm stuck on Mojave forever.
Of course I already just learned that most of my Steam library would also turn into a pumpkin if I upgraded. Seems like I'm stuck on Mojave forever.
I'm not sure what this "new training" is, I've never had any training with Office and have been using it in most of its variations since it was first released.
Are you 75+? My parents are. Move an icon an they get confused (I say that without judgement - they have not like grown up with an intuitive for software)
The difference with 32 bit software is that there's nothing forcing them to do it. With something like a port, there are physical limitations to the device, so abandoning older technologies at least gets you something in terms of form factor.
With 32 bit support, these exact same CPUs could easily still run 32 bit software as they have for years. The tradeoff I guess is that it makes the OS a bit easier to support from Apple's point of view. The advantage to the user is not clear.
With 32 bit support, these exact same CPUs could easily still run 32 bit software as they have for years. The tradeoff I guess is that it makes the OS a bit easier to support from Apple's point of view. The advantage to the user is not clear.
That's a lot of emotion for some decision I wouldn't even have noticed. (Not a single 32bit app, as I found out).
But, anyway, if you want to use decades-old software, why are you so keen on updating to the latest MacOS?
But, anyway, if you want to use decades-old software, why are you so keen on updating to the latest MacOS?
I develop iOS software as a hobby and a job. In order to support the newest iOS versions - Apple will support one major OS version behind, but what happens when 10.17 hits?
Touchbar doesn’t make sense until you install something like Pock.Dev. After doing that, it’s useful.
I was skeptical too, but some apps have found really great ways to use it:
- Mute/unmute on skype
- Preview and switcher for a number of slides at a time in powerpoint
- Mirror displays / extend desktop when connected to an external display
- Mute/unmute on skype
- Preview and switcher for a number of slides at a time in powerpoint
- Mirror displays / extend desktop when connected to an external display
It turns out that people who buy laptops -- a mobile-ish form factor differentiated from a tablet by its keyboard -- might really really care about keyboards as the main interface between user and device.
I'd concluded that Apple didn't really think much of laptops anymore, and had simply moved on to caring more about other form factors: it seemed a logical conclusion if one assumed that people at Apple were in fact competent.
This shows some real care regarding laptops as a form factor and puts them back in the running for a lot of buyers, including me. But there's still one major issue that I don't see people talking much about -- the way that Apple's decisions regarding storage (namely soldering it to the board AND making it so that there's no way to access it in the event of a logic board failure) increases consumer risk as well as decreasing consumer choice:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-removes-the-Customer-Dat...
It increases risk of data loss. That's a choice that impacts the day-to-day experience much less than the keyboard, which explains why the keyboard has gotten much more attention, and it really is nice that a company arguably built on attention to experience returned to that aspect of it. But this kind of choice makes a huge difference in a moment of failure, and it's at least equally user-hostile, especially in a product bearing the name "pro" where data recovery can be a matter of business continuity.
I suppose that one can argue a responsible professional will be using network and external backups (and of course all responsible professionals worth considering or selling anything to will do this, right?), and so this isn't necessary, and Apple's thing (wise or unwise) is that they frequently reconsider and eliminate things that aren't crucial. But redundancy in some areas is wise, and I can't see what they think eliminating both removability AND emergency direct access when it come to storage actually buys them. Even if one assumes it's a lock-in action for service, it makes the actual service more difficult and costly.
I'm liking the keyboard correction. I just bought a 2014 MBP to replace an older failing MBP, so I'm not in the market for something else for a year or two, but when that comes up, I'll be seriously looking at the 16" as an option. And this will be what I'm thinking about.
I'd concluded that Apple didn't really think much of laptops anymore, and had simply moved on to caring more about other form factors: it seemed a logical conclusion if one assumed that people at Apple were in fact competent.
This shows some real care regarding laptops as a form factor and puts them back in the running for a lot of buyers, including me. But there's still one major issue that I don't see people talking much about -- the way that Apple's decisions regarding storage (namely soldering it to the board AND making it so that there's no way to access it in the event of a logic board failure) increases consumer risk as well as decreasing consumer choice:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-removes-the-Customer-Dat...
It increases risk of data loss. That's a choice that impacts the day-to-day experience much less than the keyboard, which explains why the keyboard has gotten much more attention, and it really is nice that a company arguably built on attention to experience returned to that aspect of it. But this kind of choice makes a huge difference in a moment of failure, and it's at least equally user-hostile, especially in a product bearing the name "pro" where data recovery can be a matter of business continuity.
I suppose that one can argue a responsible professional will be using network and external backups (and of course all responsible professionals worth considering or selling anything to will do this, right?), and so this isn't necessary, and Apple's thing (wise or unwise) is that they frequently reconsider and eliminate things that aren't crucial. But redundancy in some areas is wise, and I can't see what they think eliminating both removability AND emergency direct access when it come to storage actually buys them. Even if one assumes it's a lock-in action for service, it makes the actual service more difficult and costly.
I'm liking the keyboard correction. I just bought a 2014 MBP to replace an older failing MBP, so I'm not in the market for something else for a year or two, but when that comes up, I'll be seriously looking at the 16" as an option. And this will be what I'm thinking about.
Maybe somebody at Apple got the idea that telling more users "Sorry, your data is gone forever, no way to get it back." increases user perception of device security (that it's hard to get your data off your device; if Apple can't do it then criminals can't either.)
I'd rather have FDE on a removable drive, but perhaps the typical user doesn't really have a clear mental picture of what's going on.
I'd rather have FDE on a removable drive, but perhaps the typical user doesn't really have a clear mental picture of what's going on.
Companies do not act according to their morals: they act according to their incentives. And there is an incentive to sell more iCloud storage if SSDs are hard to swap.
Except that when you don't have the disk space on your SSD to download the stuff from iCloud, the whole thing doesn't work. I think you've a conspiracy theory here.
When you don't, the local files that haven't been accessed in some time are deleted and only a local alias is kept. Next time you need it, it'll be downloaded.
Almost every cloud service (icloud, dropbox, box, onedrive) now has on-demand access to files to download them when actually opened.
This is tinfoily. Making people happy to buy $2500-$4000 machines is a much bigger incentive than squeezing a little iCloud money.
The paradoxical thing with recent Apple laptop keyboards is that their Magic Keyboard 2 is pretty darn good. I haven't bought any Apple products for more than a decade, but I keep recommending and buying their Magic Keyboard 2 for Linux workstations.
It has a very good mechanical feel, and it reduces latency perhaps due to shallow action point and/or firmware tweaks [1]. Also, it's really easy to source ANSI layouts outside the US.
I do in fact prefer it to my blue ALPS keyboard for long typing sessions.
[1] https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/
It has a very good mechanical feel, and it reduces latency perhaps due to shallow action point and/or firmware tweaks [1]. Also, it's really easy to source ANSI layouts outside the US.
I do in fact prefer it to my blue ALPS keyboard for long typing sessions.
[1] https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/
Which model is the "Magic Keyboard 2"? I don't see any keyboard products in the apple store with a "2"
Is it one or both of these?
- https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MRMH2LL/A/magic-keyboard-...
- https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MLA22LL/A/magic-keyboard-...
Is it one or both of these?
- https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MRMH2LL/A/magic-keyboard-...
- https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MLA22LL/A/magic-keyboard-...
Apple is no longer selling the original magic keyboard, so those are the right product. They are wireless, and charge with a lightning cable.
They will also present as a USB HID when plugged in via USB/lightning, so they can be used with any workstation even without Bluetooth.
The version with number pad is my go-to.
They will also present as a USB HID when plugged in via USB/lightning, so they can be used with any workstation even without Bluetooth.
The version with number pad is my go-to.
I like it except it has full-height arrow keys :(
If you're dealing with Apple/an Authorized Service Provider, there is a replacement method available to them to get data off of a failing system. (Uses the USB-C ports and DFU mode).
Anecdotally, it does work on some boards that are otherwise hosed, but may be less frequently successful than with the prior data connector, as there's more pieces that do have to be still functional for it to work.
Anecdotally, it does work on some boards that are otherwise hosed, but may be less frequently successful than with the prior data connector, as there's more pieces that do have to be still functional for it to work.
Interesting to note that the T2 chip in the new MBP supposedly contains the HD/Flash controller that used to be a separate IC -- according to the specs page. As it's a pretty fully featured SOC in its own right, that might make it easier to get to the HD in case of main CPU/RAM failures.
>It increases risk of data loss.
I realize that this is idealistic of me but data loss should never be an issue. This is 2019 and backups have been drilled into everyone's heads for years and years and years. You can still access the drives in these via Target Disk mode (and I've had to do a few recoveries through that so I know it works) and it's likely that the pros outweigh the cons.
I realize that this is idealistic of me but data loss should never be an issue. This is 2019 and backups have been drilled into everyone's heads for years and years and years. You can still access the drives in these via Target Disk mode (and I've had to do a few recoveries through that so I know it works) and it's likely that the pros outweigh the cons.
The pros are only size related. Size at all costs is excusable as a consumer or prosumer product, but most of the users of the high end pro's want power, cooling, good ports, reliability, and certainly upgradability. The 2012's were so nice featuring 2 internal sata connections and removable ram. Those computers weren't too thick in my mind, so for a pro, I think they have their objectives mixed up.
I feel the upgradability issue is relatively minor. For some extra money, I can order one with 64 GB of DDR4 and 8 TB of flash. That's probably enough to carry me for five or so years. Quite frankly, my local storage needs topped out somewhere between 1 and 2 TB and have been there for the past five years. Whether 64 GB of RAM will be enough is the big question for me. Even if it weren't, there aren't many laptops available today that can go further than that.
Upgradability is good if you intend to make a lower initial investment and increase capacity at a later point. This laptop is not a toy and, if you are buying one, it's reasonable to expect a return on your investment.
Upgradability is good if you intend to make a lower initial investment and increase capacity at a later point. This laptop is not a toy and, if you are buying one, it's reasonable to expect a return on your investment.
> Upgradability is good if you intend to make a lower initial investment and increase capacity at a later point. This laptop is not a toy and, if you are buying one, it's reasonable to expect a return on your investment.
Not clear on your meaning here. Are you saying that upgradability increases ROI, and that it is something one should expect in a professional laptop? If so, I agree.
Not clear on your meaning here. Are you saying that upgradability increases ROI, and that it is something one should expect in a professional laptop? If so, I agree.
Kind of yes.
You can buy an upgradable computer specced to your current needs today and adapt it to your future needs as needed. You will pay less now because it doesn't need to be able to run now the OS that'll be available in 5 years and you probably will pay less for the capacity by then. The cost is the time you'll need to invest to make those upgrades: sourcing the parts, assembly, etc.
Upgradability is, in general, a good thing. In the case of these laptops, you buy them to the specs you'll need at the end of the machine's useful life, at the full current price.
You can buy an upgradable computer specced to your current needs today and adapt it to your future needs as needed. You will pay less now because it doesn't need to be able to run now the OS that'll be available in 5 years and you probably will pay less for the capacity by then. The cost is the time you'll need to invest to make those upgrades: sourcing the parts, assembly, etc.
Upgradability is, in general, a good thing. In the case of these laptops, you buy them to the specs you'll need at the end of the machine's useful life, at the full current price.
> In the case of these laptops, you buy them to the specs you'll need at the end of the machine's useful life, at the full current price.
OK, I see what you are saying. The nit I have to pick with that particular sort of reasoning is that now Apple has put their customers in a bit of a bind:
- either you buy the absolute max spec (and hope that it includes the specs you'll need for that time span), or
- you risk buyers remorse as you end up in a situation where the laptop that you already handed over a small fortune for isn't up to the task
This past year I recently considered buying one of Lenovo's premium Thinkpad T-series laptops, but the fact that they had one (of two) RAM slots soldered put me off. I was buying this laptop for personal use, and so I didn't want to spend top dollar on it right then, but I didn't want to end up in a situation where what I had settled for wasn't enough.
I ended up going for one of the "budget" E-series Thinkpads, because (paradoxically) those do have fully upgradable RAM.
OK, I see what you are saying. The nit I have to pick with that particular sort of reasoning is that now Apple has put their customers in a bit of a bind:
- either you buy the absolute max spec (and hope that it includes the specs you'll need for that time span), or
- you risk buyers remorse as you end up in a situation where the laptop that you already handed over a small fortune for isn't up to the task
This past year I recently considered buying one of Lenovo's premium Thinkpad T-series laptops, but the fact that they had one (of two) RAM slots soldered put me off. I was buying this laptop for personal use, and so I didn't want to spend top dollar on it right then, but I didn't want to end up in a situation where what I had settled for wasn't enough.
I ended up going for one of the "budget" E-series Thinkpads, because (paradoxically) those do have fully upgradable RAM.
The Thinkpad T490 (not the T490s) does have upgradeable RAM -- we settled on it for all our new developer machines. It's got an amazing keyboard and is fairly lightweight, but has every port you'd need, even VGA (and costs ~$1,000 for 8GB/256GB SSD).
It has one stick of upgradable RAM - better than nothing, but I wanted both sticks. Honestly, for a work laptop where you are going to be trading it out again in 3 years, that's probably fine.
My E495 currently has 8GB (2x4GB for better iGPU performance) and that's all I need for personal uses for now. But I can upgrade to 32GB later if I need to (and for less overall cost).
My E495 currently has 8GB (2x4GB for better iGPU performance) and that's all I need for personal uses for now. But I can upgrade to 32GB later if I need to (and for less overall cost).
It's not just buyers remorse. If you use the machine for work and buy something under-spec'd - especially in RAM, you lose money by being less efficient with a slower machine.
Upgradability also lowers the total cost of ownership, as the upgraded parts become cheaper by the time you need them.
By how much? I understand that if instead of buying a laptop with the intention of replacing it with the then top-of-the-line model five years down the road I get one that I plan to outgrow in 2 years, I'll spend less money, but is that a relevant amount compared to the money you expect to make by using the computer?
The question is less whether the cost is lower, but whether it's lower enough to justify the extra work of upgrading.
The question is less whether the cost is lower, but whether it's lower enough to justify the extra work of upgrading.
> whether it's lower enough to justify the extra work of upgrading.
Extra work? I upgraded the SSD in my 2015 MBP in 2 hours. And almost all of that was waiting for time machine to restore to the new disk. Is that worth it against the £2k+ I'd have to spend on a whole new MacBook? Of course it is.
I couldn't have afforded the bigger disk when I first purchased the laptop (if you have the ability to always be able to afford to top-of-the-line model, then that's a luxury that not everyone has). And this is Apple, who claim to be environmentally friendly.
Extra work? I upgraded the SSD in my 2015 MBP in 2 hours. And almost all of that was waiting for time machine to restore to the new disk. Is that worth it against the £2k+ I'd have to spend on a whole new MacBook? Of course it is.
I couldn't have afforded the bigger disk when I first purchased the laptop (if you have the ability to always be able to afford to top-of-the-line model, then that's a luxury that not everyone has). And this is Apple, who claim to be environmentally friendly.
Not everyone makes Bay Area money as an engineer especially in the hard sciences. Even though I’m one of the lucky ones, it’s annoying being forced to pay Apple prices for storage which is about double the market price eg Apple 8TB $2400 vs decent brand decent speed 8TB ~$1200-$1500. It is very hard to justify. This also doesn’t account for inflation and the general decrease in storage prices over time. Yes, the price drops are no longer as fast but in a year or two, we’re still seeing %25 price decreases; it’s still worth waiting for a lot of people including me. I feel the same way about Apple RAM. Soldering it down does nothing for me. it just helps Apple’s profits, since it seems they’re no longer able to substantially grow their user base. It feels like extortion and this isn’t helping growth long term even if they only see iOS as the future
But isn’t this exactly the point of the thunderbolt ports? You can buy your external SSDs and get as fast (even faster if you RAID them) access to your data.
It's also hard to imagine needing 8TB on-the-go capacity. That's certainly a niche use. I can imagine more cases where being tethered to a desk in order to get to the data would be not a big deal.
And there are always networked storage servers.
And there are always networked storage servers.
To paraphrase a recent HN comment about the touchbar...
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21524004
[2] https://marco.org/2019/11/13/mbp16
"I'm so glad this model has soldered storage"
"I would buy a dell xps but only if it had soldered storage"
things no one ever said. [1]
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21524004
[2] https://marco.org/2019/11/13/mbp16
The point is I don't care. I'd rather have the specs of what I'll need five years from now right now and have a very comfortable machine than having a reasonable machine now, spending a day upgrading it later, having a then reasonable machine until it's retired.
The difference in cost is not that huge. I'm not talking about getting an 8-way Xeon Platinum box with 16 TB of RAM to put under my desk.
The difference in cost is not that huge. I'm not talking about getting an 8-way Xeon Platinum box with 16 TB of RAM to put under my desk.
>have the specs of what I'll need five years from now right now
lol... like you can know this. My 2010 MBPro definitely needed 16GB ram in 2016, and thankfully I was able to put it in there even though apple never supported that much ram in that model.
Your entire perspective on this is entirely warped.
lol... like you can know this. My 2010 MBPro definitely needed 16GB ram in 2016, and thankfully I was able to put it in there even though apple never supported that much ram in that model.
Your entire perspective on this is entirely warped.
It's also worth considering that it extends the usable life of the machines. In some companies, older high end machines that are still in good condition are recycled and passed down to less demanding users - e.g. developer machines may get passed down to tech support.
For personal users, it means that passing it down to a family member may no longer be an option.
In addition, the lack of upgradability has tanked the resale value of lower end Macs - so lease companies aren't recovering as much value, and consumers machines are depreciating faster than Macs of old.
For personal users, it means that passing it down to a family member may no longer be an option.
In addition, the lack of upgradability has tanked the resale value of lower end Macs - so lease companies aren't recovering as much value, and consumers machines are depreciating faster than Macs of old.
Some extra money? You’re talking about a nearly $6k configuration.
It almost never makes sense to overbuy storage and memory, which tends to be a cyclical market that drops in cost over time. Doubly true with Apple that marks up both commodities dramatically.
It almost never makes sense to overbuy storage and memory, which tends to be a cyclical market that drops in cost over time. Doubly true with Apple that marks up both commodities dramatically.
[deleted]
64 GB will cost you $800. For $2200 you get the 8 TB. $6000 is the price of the full 8-core machine with each and every bell and whistle.
It's expensive, but not absurd. Think of it as paying $1000 a year for a computer.
It's expensive, but not absurd. Think of it as paying $1000 a year for a computer.
Maybe in Silicon Valley with VC money.
Even then, it's getting more and more difficult to justify the increasing gap between Apple pricing and say - Dell or Lenovo. Almost $1k in it now for equivalently spec'd non-base MBP vs XPS15/X1 Extreme, and the gap just gets higher as you need higher requirements.
Let's have a look at what Apple have done since 2012.
1) Inflate the base prices of the machines and attempt to justify it via non-optional "features" such as the touch bar, wide gamut displays, extra thunderbolt ports, obsessively thin designs, T2 chip.
2) Solder everything, requiring customers to buy the specs they think they'll need in ~3 years' time upfront, when prices are at their highest. Look how expensive 1TB of flash was 3 years ago vs today, for example. Heck, in 2008-2012, several Apple machines could be upgraded to beyond their original BTO capabilities thanks to technology advancements and firmware updates by Apple at the time.
3) Where they didn't solder storage in the 2012-2015 machines, they used several different proprietary form factors for blade card SSDs when standardised form factors have existed the whole time (mSATA, M.2 SATA/PCIe AHCI/NVMe).
4) Removed the ability for customers to restore machines to working state either in the field or in a timely manner, and pushing customers toward Apple service and AppleCare.
5) Literally glue in the one consumable item in the machine (battery) that is almost certainly going to fail before the usable lifespan of the machine, pushing the price of a battery service up dramatically, reducing the economical lifespan of the machines.
6) Reduce serviceability of other components likely to fail or get damaged over time such as the keyboard and trackpad by riveting, glueing, sandwiching etc to ensure older machines are uneconomical to repair as soon as they can be, pushing customers toward buying a new machine.
This is a company that is doing everything to take away your choice as a customer, trying to turn expensive computers into disposable appliances. Don't try to justify this crap - just say no.
All the above, combined with the design flaws almost every 2016+ MacBook has (butterfly keyboard, flexgate, staingate, display connector issues, T2 chip integration issues), the seriously declining quality of Apple's OSs, the removal of useful features (MagSafe!, sleep light, external battery status meter, IR remote, non-type C ports, SD reader), have me now in the position where I not only don't want to buy any of there new MacBooks, I'm actively encouraging others not to as well.
Me, a once huge Apple fan whose personal portable machines have been Apple almost exclusively since the 90s. Whose OS of choice has been OS X/macOS since Jaguar. Who used to go out of his way to explain why Apple machines were worth it.
Nope. No more.
Even then, it's getting more and more difficult to justify the increasing gap between Apple pricing and say - Dell or Lenovo. Almost $1k in it now for equivalently spec'd non-base MBP vs XPS15/X1 Extreme, and the gap just gets higher as you need higher requirements.
Let's have a look at what Apple have done since 2012.
1) Inflate the base prices of the machines and attempt to justify it via non-optional "features" such as the touch bar, wide gamut displays, extra thunderbolt ports, obsessively thin designs, T2 chip.
2) Solder everything, requiring customers to buy the specs they think they'll need in ~3 years' time upfront, when prices are at their highest. Look how expensive 1TB of flash was 3 years ago vs today, for example. Heck, in 2008-2012, several Apple machines could be upgraded to beyond their original BTO capabilities thanks to technology advancements and firmware updates by Apple at the time.
3) Where they didn't solder storage in the 2012-2015 machines, they used several different proprietary form factors for blade card SSDs when standardised form factors have existed the whole time (mSATA, M.2 SATA/PCIe AHCI/NVMe).
4) Removed the ability for customers to restore machines to working state either in the field or in a timely manner, and pushing customers toward Apple service and AppleCare.
5) Literally glue in the one consumable item in the machine (battery) that is almost certainly going to fail before the usable lifespan of the machine, pushing the price of a battery service up dramatically, reducing the economical lifespan of the machines.
6) Reduce serviceability of other components likely to fail or get damaged over time such as the keyboard and trackpad by riveting, glueing, sandwiching etc to ensure older machines are uneconomical to repair as soon as they can be, pushing customers toward buying a new machine.
This is a company that is doing everything to take away your choice as a customer, trying to turn expensive computers into disposable appliances. Don't try to justify this crap - just say no.
All the above, combined with the design flaws almost every 2016+ MacBook has (butterfly keyboard, flexgate, staingate, display connector issues, T2 chip integration issues), the seriously declining quality of Apple's OSs, the removal of useful features (MagSafe!, sleep light, external battery status meter, IR remote, non-type C ports, SD reader), have me now in the position where I not only don't want to buy any of there new MacBooks, I'm actively encouraging others not to as well.
Me, a once huge Apple fan whose personal portable machines have been Apple almost exclusively since the 90s. Whose OS of choice has been OS X/macOS since Jaguar. Who used to go out of his way to explain why Apple machines were worth it.
Nope. No more.
I recently bought a Thinkpad P1 Gen 2 with i9 9880H, 64GB RAM, 2x 2TB NVME, 15” OLED, basically all the options ticked, including a 3 year warranty with equivalent properties to AppleCare+.
It ran about $4700 before tax but after one of those coupons which Lenovo is constantly running and which knocks 10-30% off the MSRP of the device. Given Apple is now pricing NVME at $300/TB for upgrade, this seems comparably priced for what is largely the same internals.
I’ve been a MacBook Pro aficionado for the last decade. I’ve tried other stuff like the Surface Pro, never kept it.
I guess my point is there’s a myth that Apple is significantly more expensive than others, which doesn’t feel like it’s borne out by the manufacturer configurators when you’re dealing with high-end configurations?
Obviously, and this is highly subjective, I personally ascribe significant value to what Apple does to enhance thermal management (vs. the P1, which has throttling issues), to enhancing security through stuff like T2, Touch ID, FileVault 2 being so seamless, etc.
I’ve got enough nagging concerns about the maxed-out P1 Gen 2 that I’ve just ordered the new 16” MBP to do another compare and contrast — we’ll see how it goes. Extra 4TB of NVME over the P1 certainly doesn’t hurt.
Where I agree is some of the integration/packaging compromises impacting repairability are a pain, AppleCare+ is a subpar experience to Lenovo who’ll have parts and a technician appear next business day to fix your laptop. Also the mistakes Apple made around keyboards were deeply unfortunate, I had to get mine repaired multiple times.
It ran about $4700 before tax but after one of those coupons which Lenovo is constantly running and which knocks 10-30% off the MSRP of the device. Given Apple is now pricing NVME at $300/TB for upgrade, this seems comparably priced for what is largely the same internals.
I’ve been a MacBook Pro aficionado for the last decade. I’ve tried other stuff like the Surface Pro, never kept it.
I guess my point is there’s a myth that Apple is significantly more expensive than others, which doesn’t feel like it’s borne out by the manufacturer configurators when you’re dealing with high-end configurations?
Obviously, and this is highly subjective, I personally ascribe significant value to what Apple does to enhance thermal management (vs. the P1, which has throttling issues), to enhancing security through stuff like T2, Touch ID, FileVault 2 being so seamless, etc.
I’ve got enough nagging concerns about the maxed-out P1 Gen 2 that I’ve just ordered the new 16” MBP to do another compare and contrast — we’ll see how it goes. Extra 4TB of NVME over the P1 certainly doesn’t hurt.
Where I agree is some of the integration/packaging compromises impacting repairability are a pain, AppleCare+ is a subpar experience to Lenovo who’ll have parts and a technician appear next business day to fix your laptop. Also the mistakes Apple made around keyboards were deeply unfortunate, I had to get mine repaired multiple times.
64GB will cost you $800 now. When you need it, it may cost half that, or less. And Apple was notorious for underspec'ing the maximum amount of RAM a machine could take - it was common for a machine to take double the Apple official maximum because the DIMM densities increased with time. Since the integration of the memory controller into the CPU this is less of an issue, but the soldered RAM means you're limited to the amount that Apple is prepared to give you, which until this model has been far less than the CPU actually supports - the 15" i9 could be spec'd to 32GB, but the CPU could address 64GB.
Apple's attitude to upgrading is to replace the entire machine. It's both expensive and absurd. I bought a 2008 MBP back in uni in 2010. I later upgraded the RAM and disk when I could afford to, and when I had reached the limits of what it had. That machine served me well for 5 years. There's nothing else on the market today I'd trust to be a daily use machine for 5 years straight.
Apple's attitude to upgrading is to replace the entire machine. It's both expensive and absurd. I bought a 2008 MBP back in uni in 2010. I later upgraded the RAM and disk when I could afford to, and when I had reached the limits of what it had. That machine served me well for 5 years. There's nothing else on the market today I'd trust to be a daily use machine for 5 years straight.
During the upgradability era, it was still cheaper to up your ram and storage yourself on day one than through apples gouging. You could even put in more ram than apple even offered.
Target disk won't help you if one of the critical ICs on the mobo dies.
If the disk is encrypted (and it should be) and the encryption key is stored in a secure enclave (like the T2 chip) or uses a machine specific key (UID), then having removable or swappable storage isn't helpful either.
In either case, you're not accessing any stored data from a broken Macbook.
In either case, you're not accessing any stored data from a broken Macbook.
With proper encryption solutions there is always a way to have a backup key printed out that's used when the drive is in another system.
This is kind of a cloistered view. Many people work in environments where bandwidth is hard to come by. And, of course, on-site backups are always risky.
The data migration connector will not help much in cases where your laptop and your local backup disk are destroyed.
My setup backs up to both local and networked disks (both disks listed in Time Machine, so backups alternate between them). The networked disk is actually a folder in a Debian VM that, from time to time, sends the backup to AWS.
A bit paranoid, but little added effort (figuring out and setting everything up took about an afternoon).
My setup backs up to both local and networked disks (both disks listed in Time Machine, so backups alternate between them). The networked disk is actually a folder in a Debian VM that, from time to time, sends the backup to AWS.
A bit paranoid, but little added effort (figuring out and setting everything up took about an afternoon).
On the other hand:
- There's the adage in the enterprise space that, if you haven't tested your backups, then you don't really have backups. Most consumers, and even professional users, aren't likely going to be in a position to verify their backups before they actually need them.
- Not even being able to do simple repairs or upgrades massively reduces the ROI. This is especially for high-end, professional equipment.
When I first started my current job, everyone was given the option of a Thinkpad with linux or a Mac. Both units had 16GB of RAM. When it became apparent that 16GB was insufficient for my workloads, it was simple for IT to upgrade my Thinkpad to 32GB. My coworkers with Macs were not so fortunate.
- There's the adage in the enterprise space that, if you haven't tested your backups, then you don't really have backups. Most consumers, and even professional users, aren't likely going to be in a position to verify their backups before they actually need them.
- Not even being able to do simple repairs or upgrades massively reduces the ROI. This is especially for high-end, professional equipment.
When I first started my current job, everyone was given the option of a Thinkpad with linux or a Mac. Both units had 16GB of RAM. When it became apparent that 16GB was insufficient for my workloads, it was simple for IT to upgrade my Thinkpad to 32GB. My coworkers with Macs were not so fortunate.
> If you haven't tested your backups, then you don't really have backups.
Backups are boring.
Restore from backup is quite exciting.
Backups are boring.
Restore from backup is quite exciting.
> There's the adage in the enterprise space that, if you haven't tested your backups, then you don't really have backups. Most consumers, and even professional users, aren't likely going to be in a position to verify their backups before they actually need them.
This is why having more than just one computer is beneficial. Because I jump between multiple laptops, desktops, and other devices, and perform my work and other activities, I bring with me copies of my data between devices by necessity, whenever I need that data.
And I think that is actually the way to do it. Not to focus so much on trying to keep multiple copies of all of your data since forever, because then you get bogged down in details about keeping everything in sync and everything organized, but instead to just focus on the data that you actually need, and being conscious about making copies of data when you use it.
In the past, when I was using fewer computers, I had one computer that was sort of the canonical location of data. And I’d access it over the network and work on my data there. It had great uptime too. On the order of months. Then one day there was a power outage and that was when I realized that I had no idea what I had set as the password for the full disk encryption on said machine. Ooops :^)
I lost a fair bit of data that day. But I learned something too, and that learning has shaped my habits in how I deal with data and I can proudly say that in the years that have passed since then I have been able to hold on to all of the data that is most important to me.
I almost got blindsided by 2FA a couple of years ago, because I didn’t know that the keys for the second factor were intentionally kept device-local. But thankfully I was changing phones with the old one still functional and in my possession and was waiting with performing factory reset until after I’d set up the new phone and seen whether or not I had all that I needed. So because of that all I needed to do was to log in with the 2FA of the old phone on each service I had it on, temporarily disable 2FA and then reenable it with the new phone and when I did that I also saved all of the new 2FA keys so that in the event that I might actually end up having to switch phones because the new one broke in the future I would not end up locked out of my accounts.
This is why having more than just one computer is beneficial. Because I jump between multiple laptops, desktops, and other devices, and perform my work and other activities, I bring with me copies of my data between devices by necessity, whenever I need that data.
And I think that is actually the way to do it. Not to focus so much on trying to keep multiple copies of all of your data since forever, because then you get bogged down in details about keeping everything in sync and everything organized, but instead to just focus on the data that you actually need, and being conscious about making copies of data when you use it.
In the past, when I was using fewer computers, I had one computer that was sort of the canonical location of data. And I’d access it over the network and work on my data there. It had great uptime too. On the order of months. Then one day there was a power outage and that was when I realized that I had no idea what I had set as the password for the full disk encryption on said machine. Ooops :^)
I lost a fair bit of data that day. But I learned something too, and that learning has shaped my habits in how I deal with data and I can proudly say that in the years that have passed since then I have been able to hold on to all of the data that is most important to me.
I almost got blindsided by 2FA a couple of years ago, because I didn’t know that the keys for the second factor were intentionally kept device-local. But thankfully I was changing phones with the old one still functional and in my possession and was waiting with performing factory reset until after I’d set up the new phone and seen whether or not I had all that I needed. So because of that all I needed to do was to log in with the 2FA of the old phone on each service I had it on, temporarily disable 2FA and then reenable it with the new phone and when I did that I also saved all of the new 2FA keys so that in the event that I might actually end up having to switch phones because the new one broke in the future I would not end up locked out of my accounts.
If you're using iOS, Google Authenticator seeds are indeed backed up if you do an encrypted local backup via iTunes, iMazing, etc.
Even if data loss is entirely mitigated by backups, storage failure can also be a thing, and mitigating that issue used to be a matter of making at least one of your backups bootable and on media you could swap in, so this didn't take down the whole device. Not sure what techs do now, but I'll bet it involves more downtime and less continuity.
But data loss is an issue. Network backups are great, and I use them, but they're bandwidth bound. Local external drive backups are great, and I do them, but less frequently. And I don't test my backups (yet)... do you? Having removable storage -- or even storage that's reliably accessible in the face of other component failure -- provides an extra margin against the risk of loss that can creep in even with a set of responsible backup habits.
What's the pro of soldering storage to the board that outweighs these cons?
But data loss is an issue. Network backups are great, and I use them, but they're bandwidth bound. Local external drive backups are great, and I do them, but less frequently. And I don't test my backups (yet)... do you? Having removable storage -- or even storage that's reliably accessible in the face of other component failure -- provides an extra margin against the risk of loss that can creep in even with a set of responsible backup habits.
What's the pro of soldering storage to the board that outweighs these cons?
Just get a time machine, put on your wifi and you don't have to think about it anymore, it will just backup every day in the background. You can easily restore into another macbook using the builtin restore functionality. Apples solution to this is really good (still struggling to do it with the same ease with Windows without 3rd party software and Linux).
> restore into another macbook
That's the problem. Instead of replacing a $200 SSD, you have to replace the entire $2000 machine.
That's the problem. Instead of replacing a $200 SSD, you have to replace the entire $2000 machine.
Just preheat the board, get your hot air station, heat and remove those bad modules, clean the pads, add your solder and remount some new ones before cleaning up all that flux you were using. Then reinstall macOS and restore your backups.
It might take a few tries before the solder balls up correctly under each pad. Use plenty of flux. Maybe give it a ultrasonic bath.
Source: YouTube
It might take a few tries before the solder balls up correctly under each pad. Use plenty of flux. Maybe give it a ultrasonic bath.
Source: YouTube
Ah yes, Apple is known for making things obvious, intuitive, easy, and user-friendly! /s
Having an actual mini-sata or m.2 connector won't be too taxing. But it will increase tech support costs, and lower profits from sales of new replacement machines at least.
Sad. (That's why my choice is Thinkpad T series, which is built like a tank: heavy, bulky, easy to replace any part, and hard to actually break; also, enough room for a good keyboard.)
Having an actual mini-sata or m.2 connector won't be too taxing. But it will increase tech support costs, and lower profits from sales of new replacement machines at least.
Sad. (That's why my choice is Thinkpad T series, which is built like a tank: heavy, bulky, easy to replace any part, and hard to actually break; also, enough room for a good keyboard.)
T (and X) series solders some stuff now too. Dell XPS15 and X1 Extreme are mostly maintainable.
Even the XPS 13s are more serviceable than their rival MBP 13"s. The RAM may be soldered on both but the XPS uses a standard NVMe SSD. It's saved me a few times already.
If you have AppleCare you won’t have to pay for that replacement. After 3 years, you would, however buying a laptop with an inferior OS just in case one day a machine catastrophically fails is like riding a horse because you are afraid your car might fly off a bridge at some point in the future.
I know I am anecdote-land, but I have never in 20 years of using Macs, had one catastrophically fail. Or fail at all for that matter.
I know I am anecdote-land, but I have never in 20 years of using Macs, had one catastrophically fail. Or fail at all for that matter.
Fair enough, but I have had one in the last 7 years, and so has my sister. Hard drives in both cases.
HDD or SSD?
Apple discontinued Time Capsule and their entire Airport line. The Time Machine software is still in MacOS, but de-emphasized and who knows if they'll retain it going forward.
In what way has it been de-emphasized?
Doesn’t it ask you whenever you plug in an empty hard disk if you want to use it as a Time Machine backup drive?
With how hard they're pushing their cloud and integrating it into pretty much everything I'm surprised there's still no official cloud backup solution for Mac.
Yet Apple still has no option to Time Machine backup to iCloud. I believe there are some third party ways to Time Machine backup to some cloud provider, but I don't see why Apple doesn't provide this as a feature out the box.
Because Time Machine does versioned delta backups and, as far as I know, no cloud provider offers the ability to store that much data unless their business model revolves around backup solutions.
But it’s just for Apple users? A terrabyte per user is surely within Apples reach? I can backup my phone to iCloud, but not my MacBook. It’s a glaring hole in their end-to-end experience.
Macbook drives typically can go to 1TB or more. You'd need much more storage than that to properly do a versioned backup solution that was online and that doesn't include any of the other uses of that storage.
What's more likely--logic board failure, or the loss or theft of your entire laptop? If you're not backing up your data, your risk of data loss is unacceptably high. Worrying about whether the SSD is soldered to the logic board is like walking outside in the cold without a coat and worrying about whether you're wearing a long sleeve or short sleeve t-shirt.
Personally? I've never lost a laptop or had it stolen. However, I've had several laptops stop accepting power, including one of the three Apple laptops I used in a business setting. Lack of simple removable storage on the apple laptop made handling the power issue a lot more exciting; because I noticed it when I had a full battery, I was able to do a full backup in time.
Maybe not logic board failure specifically, but I see the possibility of my laptop dying as much more likely than it getting lost or stolen. And it's usually possible to extract a working SSD out of a dead laptop.
I suppose you could also repair the computer if the full logic board hasn't died, but that may not be worth it if the laptop was purchased a while ago, especially given how unrepairable these devices are. And depending on how Apple decides to go about the repair, they may end up not retaining your anyway, even if they could have.
I suppose you could also repair the computer if the full logic board hasn't died, but that may not be worth it if the laptop was purchased a while ago, especially given how unrepairable these devices are. And depending on how Apple decides to go about the repair, they may end up not retaining your anyway, even if they could have.
Theft is a worthwhile risk profile to consider. People should do backups. Perhaps they should use encrypted volumes for sensitive information, too.
This does not change the fact that removable storage (or even storage that's accessible post board-failure) provides an additional margin of risk mitigation against hardware failure. AND a convenient way of making bootable backups you can swap in the event of storage failure rather than taking the entire machine out. AND upgradability.
What's the advantage of soldering the SSD to the board?
(And personally, I've experienced boot failure hardware issues on two laptops, theft zero times.)
This does not change the fact that removable storage (or even storage that's accessible post board-failure) provides an additional margin of risk mitigation against hardware failure. AND a convenient way of making bootable backups you can swap in the event of storage failure rather than taking the entire machine out. AND upgradability.
What's the advantage of soldering the SSD to the board?
(And personally, I've experienced boot failure hardware issues on two laptops, theft zero times.)
> This does not change the fact that removable storage (or even storage that's accessible post board-failure) provides an additional margin of risk mitigation against hardware failure.
How much additional margin? If you have backups, you're covered against both failure modes; the only marginal benefit would be to recover the x hours of data since your last backup.
How much additional margin? If you have backups, you're covered against both failure modes; the only marginal benefit would be to recover the x hours of data since your last backup.
> How much additional margin? If you have backups, you're covered against both failure modes; the only marginal benefit would be to recover the x hours of data since your last backup.
I would wager that for 90% of people, that would be all of the data since initial power on.
I would wager that for 90% of people, that would be all of the data since initial power on.
100% of the laptops will eventually break and stop working. A much smaller fraction will be stolen or lost.
A significant portion (majority?) of laptops will never “break and stop working”, but rather be retired and recycled when they become obsolete.
Or just spend years sitting unused in a box in an attic somewhere!
Or just spend years sitting unused in a box in an attic somewhere!
Have owned laptops for about 20 years. Their internals take a beating inside of bags and such. Most of them I have owned had the power connector fail. One had a GPU become de-soldered in 2006. Zero of them have been lost or stolen.
I’ve had 3 logic board failures I can recall, 0 losses/thefts.
It’s getting better now that USB3.1 SSD cases are dirt cheap.
I bought a 1 TB Samsung T5 SSD for Time machine backups on a 512GB 15” MacBook Pro that I bought recently. With that and a Yubikey (with an off-site backup Yubikey of course), I’ve got everything I need if I ever have my laptop stolen or rendered inoperable. I’ve also got another older spinning rust external hard disk for backups, but that’s more of a backup of a backup thing.
I feel like laptop keyboards continue to get worse. I mean, they're usable, but there are better key designs out there.
I ran into this issue with 2015 MBP. I incorrectly assumed SSD where still removable and connectable to a USB adapter. When my display started failing I took it to Apple. They advised that data loss is possible. I had an old backup and figured I could just use the SSD via USB for more recent stuff.
Sure enough all data is lost. I ask them why they removed such a feature. They said they replaced it will a special port on logic board for accessing the SSD the same way. They tried that though and it failed. LOL at the nonsensical design decisions.
If Apple does a removable SSD again, it would go a long way to restoring faith in them.
Sure enough all data is lost. I ask them why they removed such a feature. They said they replaced it will a special port on logic board for accessing the SSD the same way. They tried that though and it failed. LOL at the nonsensical design decisions.
If Apple does a removable SSD again, it would go a long way to restoring faith in them.
The special port has been removed from the later models because it never worked.
I've seen it work, but I think the problem now is that the T2 chip is the disk controller, so without the T2 running you can't access the disk anyway.
Yep. That’s correct. Unless you have a working T2, any SSD you have is basically decorative. Which is good for data security but terrible for its integrity.
> I'd concluded that Apple didn't really think much of laptops anymore, and had simply moved on to caring more about other form factors: it seemed a logical conclusion if one assumed that people at Apple were in fact competent.
Counterpoint, I love the new keyboards and hate using anything else. Amazing how far people go in assuming their opinion is correct, and then just keep going from there.
Counterpoint, I love the new keyboards and hate using anything else. Amazing how far people go in assuming their opinion is correct, and then just keep going from there.
I replaced my MBP 2018 with a surface pro 6, and the surface has a much better keyboard even though it’s a clip-on mat. I think that says it all.
> soldering it to the board AND making it so that there's no way to access it in the event of a logic board failure
I prefer this, considering how encryption works with the T2 chip. I'm probably in a minority of general users, but probably in the majority of HN users when I say that nothing on my laptop is important. I don't even have backups per-se. Code is in git and mirrored to multiple remote backups. Documents and similar exist solely in the cloud. If for some reason my laptop was stolen I want there to be an as close to 0% chance of an enemy retrieving data from my laptop as possible.
(Yes, I know SSD encryption exists, I think the T2 thing takes things a step further)
I prefer this, considering how encryption works with the T2 chip. I'm probably in a minority of general users, but probably in the majority of HN users when I say that nothing on my laptop is important. I don't even have backups per-se. Code is in git and mirrored to multiple remote backups. Documents and similar exist solely in the cloud. If for some reason my laptop was stolen I want there to be an as close to 0% chance of an enemy retrieving data from my laptop as possible.
(Yes, I know SSD encryption exists, I think the T2 thing takes things a step further)
Not just the risk of data loss, but the inconvenience of restoring the machine is much higher. This means the only solution to restoring a modern Mac notebook is to replace the entire logic board - everything else may be functional except the storage, which is a consumable by most considerations, but now the entire board must be swapped. And if it's out of warranty, which let's face it, it's extremely likely to be, then you are completely and utterly stuck. You either have an enormous bill from Apple or an authorised repair shop (and Apple is notoriously cagey about allowing third parties access to their replacement parts) or you have to hunt down a machine for spares to do the swap yourself, and now with Apple's invasive security measures requiring communication with Apple's diagnostic tools to perform certain swaps, storage failure can render the machine entirely useless for months, if not permanently. Whereas if the disk was replaceable, just order one from the most convenient store, swap it in, restore from Time Machine.
The Function Key MBPs have a problem with their flash storage where they may randomly and unpredictably die, taking all the data with them. The fix is a firmware update, which also takes all the data with it. Fantastic, Apple, we bought six of those machines, and because the users are actively, y'know, using the damned things, it's not really convenient to tell them they'll be without their machine for a week while the service centre gets around to it, and then multiple hours of restoring their Time Machine backups. On the plus side, the SSDs in those machines are not soldered. Yes, they're proprietary, but it's something - if those machines suffer failure, I could grab an SSD on eBay and get them running again. It's almost worth the risk.
The Function Key MBPs have a problem with their flash storage where they may randomly and unpredictably die, taking all the data with them. The fix is a firmware update, which also takes all the data with it. Fantastic, Apple, we bought six of those machines, and because the users are actively, y'know, using the damned things, it's not really convenient to tell them they'll be without their machine for a week while the service centre gets around to it, and then multiple hours of restoring their Time Machine backups. On the plus side, the SSDs in those machines are not soldered. Yes, they're proprietary, but it's something - if those machines suffer failure, I could grab an SSD on eBay and get them running again. It's almost worth the risk.
If you look closely, not only is there a physical escape key, there's a physical fingerprint key, and the touch bar is also elevated. You still might not to be able to use the touch bar without looking at it, but at least you can find it without looking at it.
I was half expecting them to use haptics on the touch bar. Still no luck there.
I was half expecting them to use haptics on the touch bar. Still no luck there.
When the touchbar first came out, I thought we'd see haptics in the second iteration. It seems so obvious that pressure-sensitivity and haptics could mitigate a lot of the weaknesses of the touchbar.
What I really miss is upgradeable RAM and SSD. Still using a 2010 MBP because I was able to upgrade it; that's no longer possible.
What I really miss is upgradeable RAM and SSD. Still using a 2010 MBP because I was able to upgrade it; that's no longer possible.
> the lack of a physical Escape key
C-[ is the same thing in Unix. I haven't tried it on a Mac though. But if you're using vim (mostly where I hear this complaint) use C-[ (actually just use it in vim anyways because who wants to lift their hand up to do such a common movement?)
C-[ is the same thing in Unix. I haven't tried it on a Mac though. But if you're using vim (mostly where I hear this complaint) use C-[ (actually just use it in vim anyways because who wants to lift their hand up to do such a common movement?)
I just map caps lock to escape, then i need even less finger movement.
They even made it super simple to remap caps-lock to escape in OSX Sierra (the release of which, probably coincided with the release of the first Touch Bar MacBook Pro). You can do it from System Preferences, without any extra software like Karabiner. Although, I still use Karabiner Elements for some more complex keyboard remapping.
I don't understand this binding (it is a common one). I don't want a 50/50 shot of having caps lock on (or my light indicator). I'm also a fan of keeping things as vanilla as possible (I do use plenty of plugins and stuff, but almost every problem you have vim solves natively)
With Karabiner, I never have such issues. Caps Lock becomes a normal key. The light is never on. Caps are never. actually locked.
It's a key that's drastically oversized compared to it's barely measurable amount of regular use.
It's a key that's drastically oversized compared to it's barely measurable amount of regular use.
> I don't want a 50/50 shot of having caps lock on (or my light indicator).
What? Have you tried this feature at all? If you map Esc to Caps Lock in Mac OS, the light indicator never turns on, and you don't enable caps lock when you press that key.
Or do you mean that this is what'll happen if you use a different computer? In my experience that's not a problem at all. Muscle-memory can be made context sensitive. I use two different keyboard layouts (dvorak and qwerty), two different key arrangements (staggered on my laptop, grid on ErgoDox), Esc mapped to Caps-Lock on my home laptop, completely different key mappings on my ErgoDox at work, and still I have very little trouble using a Qwerty keyboard with standard mapping if a use a different laptop. I'm probably a bit slower, but that's not really a problem if it's a computer I don't use that often.
What? Have you tried this feature at all? If you map Esc to Caps Lock in Mac OS, the light indicator never turns on, and you don't enable caps lock when you press that key.
Or do you mean that this is what'll happen if you use a different computer? In my experience that's not a problem at all. Muscle-memory can be made context sensitive. I use two different keyboard layouts (dvorak and qwerty), two different key arrangements (staggered on my laptop, grid on ErgoDox), Esc mapped to Caps-Lock on my home laptop, completely different key mappings on my ErgoDox at work, and still I have very little trouble using a Qwerty keyboard with standard mapping if a use a different laptop. I'm probably a bit slower, but that's not really a problem if it's a computer I don't use that often.
I mean I use ctrl-w all the time in vim (delete word back while in insert or moving panes. Basically I'm hitting ctrl ALL the time). I also frequently hit it when I'm writing a HN comment or something. Though this actually isn't a problem because sometimes I just shouldn't be replying.
Edit: I do notice that pretty much everyone that does the caps remap is using OSX. Is this because most people are using macs or just because macs have different behavior? Either way, I'd rather use a vanilla command than a remap if efforts are basically the same (my pinky rests on shift anyways and it is easy to contract my finger. I also use ctrl-backspace when typing in HN and other forms).
Edit: I do notice that pretty much everyone that does the caps remap is using OSX. Is this because most people are using macs or just because macs have different behavior? Either way, I'd rather use a vanilla command than a remap if efforts are basically the same (my pinky rests on shift anyways and it is easy to contract my finger. I also use ctrl-backspace when typing in HN and other forms).
I prefer mapping caps to Ctrl over escape because it leaves me with loads of other useful shortcuts in both the terminal and Vim.
e.g. Ctrl-o to pop out of insert mode for 1 command only.
or
e.g. Ctrl-o to pop out of insert mode for 1 command only.
or
ctrl-w: delete the last word.
ctrl-u: delete to the beginning of the line.
ctrl-d or ctrl-t: change indent level.
ctrl-h: backspace without leaving the home row.
ctrl-m: without leaving the home row.
I just tried that and that is super uncomfortable to me. Having all my fingers on the home row. My pinkies are much shorter than my index, middle, and ring, so it is pretty easy to hit ctrl with my pinky. I think your suggestion might be better if all your fingers are very similar in length, but I don't know a person like that.
I do use most of those ctrl commands btw. I didn't know about ctrl-o, so thanks for that!
I do use most of those ctrl commands btw. I didn't know about ctrl-o, so thanks for that!
Horses for courses I guess.
My little finger is much shorter than the rest but moving it a few mm to the left is easier than a large jump to the bottom of the keyboard for me.
For example, I use tmux a lot with ctrl-a.
A small movement of the hand left, jumping my little finger onto control (caps) and using my ring finger on A works really well for me.
Btw the first thing I do on getting a new mac is map the right alt key (or enter key back in the day) to control.
I hate having to press both keys with one hand for Ctrl key combos (ctrl-a being the only exception).
My little finger is much shorter than the rest but moving it a few mm to the left is easier than a large jump to the bottom of the keyboard for me.
For example, I use tmux a lot with ctrl-a.
A small movement of the hand left, jumping my little finger onto control (caps) and using my ring finger on A works really well for me.
Btw the first thing I do on getting a new mac is map the right alt key (or enter key back in the day) to control.
I hate having to press both keys with one hand for Ctrl key combos (ctrl-a being the only exception).
Interesting. Because resting my left hand on the keyboard my pinky is on shift, ring on a, middle on e, index on f.
I also use tmux. I do a remapping to ctrl-s because I use ctrl-a (and ctrl-e) all the time to go to the beginning and end of lines. And let's be real, the normal behavior of ctrl-s (suspending) is not something I'm ever going to use on purpose.
But also I'm not using a mac.
> I hate having to press both keys with one hand for Ctrl key combos (ctrl-a being the only exception).
Do you not use panes? In vim? Because I use those quite a lot.
I also use tmux. I do a remapping to ctrl-s because I use ctrl-a (and ctrl-e) all the time to go to the beginning and end of lines. And let's be real, the normal behavior of ctrl-s (suspending) is not something I'm ever going to use on purpose.
But also I'm not using a mac.
> I hate having to press both keys with one hand for Ctrl key combos (ctrl-a being the only exception).
Do you not use panes? In vim? Because I use those quite a lot.
I don't get why they couldn't fit both a touch bar and the function keys on a 16 inch laptop. Other vendors manage to put a numpad on their notebooks of similar sizes.
Ive is gone, perhaps function over form will be the new aluminium.
coming from ubuntu before mbp(2013)
I anyways found the escape key to inconsistent to appreciate. depending on your state of full screen and what program you are in it will give you different response (exit full screen vs in program functionality) hence tried to disincorporate usage of escapekey from my muscle memory alltogether.
why you consider full size left and right arrow bad?
I must be missing something out, but what's wrong with left and right arrow keys? I have 2018 15'' mbp and they are just fine. Or you mean up and down arrows?
>The lack of physical function keys remains regrettable, and the Touch Bar is still no worthy substitute
If the Touch Bar had been introduced above physical function keys, we'd consider it yet another Apple UI breakthrough, and other companies would imitate it the way every notebook today looks like the 2001 TiBook.
>perhaps this is a sign that Apple is finally interested in listening to feedback from its long-term customer base, even if that feedback conflicts with the design team's desires
I don't think the fact that Jony Ive left the company a few months ago is a coincidence. Basically, Apple finally got notebook keyboards right ... after three years of worldwide embarrassment, and the departure of the company's chief designer!
If the Touch Bar had been introduced above physical function keys, we'd consider it yet another Apple UI breakthrough, and other companies would imitate it the way every notebook today looks like the 2001 TiBook.
>perhaps this is a sign that Apple is finally interested in listening to feedback from its long-term customer base, even if that feedback conflicts with the design team's desires
I don't think the fact that Jony Ive left the company a few months ago is a coincidence. Basically, Apple finally got notebook keyboards right ... after three years of worldwide embarrassment, and the departure of the company's chief designer!
Would it materially harm a company with a trillion dollar market cap to offer a version of this without the touchbar (thus yielding a lower price), so people can afford to upgrade the soldered memory and NVMe drive?
Would it also harm them to make a version that didn't have soldered memory/NVMe drive?
Ultimately, this is why I switched to a Dell Latitude. Being user hostile to basic memory/disk replacement doesn't fly with me when spending $1500+ on a machine.
And if replacing either breaks the crypto chain - I don't need a black box T2 chip, I'll do my own disk encryption.
Would it also harm them to make a version that didn't have soldered memory/NVMe drive?
Ultimately, this is why I switched to a Dell Latitude. Being user hostile to basic memory/disk replacement doesn't fly with me when spending $1500+ on a machine.
And if replacing either breaks the crypto chain - I don't need a black box T2 chip, I'll do my own disk encryption.
I'm pretty sure at this point if they make a version without the touchbar, they'll market it as a premium feature and charge more. Now with 100% physical function keys!
"The best keyboard experience just got better."
If they care at all about making the touchbar a thing then the best way to do that is make every mac developer get one on their daily-use laptop. I still think of it as a novelty more than a functional feature, but I don't think any third party apps would support it if it didn't come on every MBP.
One way Apple has become a trillion dollar company is by minimizing skus. Options mean inventory, development and test costs etc... and can be sources of quality problems triggering warranty repairs or replacements. Doing few things allows one to streamline both product development and manufacturing.
Removing the touchbar has a material financial impact to Apple? We're talking about a CNC machine here, that's how they carve out the aluminum chassis. It would literally involve them carving out less aluminum from the block, because the touchbar would no longer be needed.
Quality problems? You mean like the over-engineered keyboard they've had issues with for three years?
Some decades longer design patterns are battle tested/aren't broken, yet Apple continually tries to break them - thinness to the extent that they now solder memory/disk to the board, putting out a keyboard design that isn't sufficiently tested, and all sorts of Catalina issues that people have documented online.
Quality problems? You mean like the over-engineered keyboard they've had issues with for three years?
Some decades longer design patterns are battle tested/aren't broken, yet Apple continually tries to break them - thinness to the extent that they now solder memory/disk to the board, putting out a keyboard design that isn't sufficiently tested, and all sorts of Catalina issues that people have documented online.
Minimizing SKUs was the Jobs way. I’d say Apple has since then taken very different approach. Just check the number of iPad and iPhone variants.
They have more variants then in the past, but when compared to competitors today they still offer a more simplified lineup.
During the Jobs era Apple had:
4 different types of iPods - Shuffle, Nano, Classic, Touch
3 iPhones: gen, gen-1, gen-2
3 laptops: Air, MacBook, Macbook Pro,
4 desktops: Mini, iMac, Mac Pro, XServe.
It was only the "Jobs way" when they were about to go bankrupt.
4 different types of iPods - Shuffle, Nano, Classic, Touch
3 iPhones: gen, gen-1, gen-2
3 laptops: Air, MacBook, Macbook Pro,
4 desktops: Mini, iMac, Mac Pro, XServe.
It was only the "Jobs way" when they were about to go bankrupt.
How many more would there have been without him?
Anyway, You listed 14 unique devices. In the late 90s Apple probably had that many Performas alone, never mind everything else.
Anyway, You listed 14 unique devices. In the late 90s Apple probably had that many Performas alone, never mind everything else.
I was responding to a post that said Apple didn’t have as many SKUs during the Jobd era.
Now Apple has
iPod - 1
Watch - 4
Laptops - 3
Desktops - 3
Phones - 6
iPads - 4 (I left off the iPad before)
20 SKUs. Before they had 15.
But, the iPhone was crippled during the Jobs era because iOS had no frameworks to have multiple screen sizes.
Now Apple has
iPod - 1
Watch - 4
Laptops - 3
Desktops - 3
Phones - 6
iPads - 4 (I left off the iPad before)
20 SKUs. Before they had 15.
But, the iPhone was crippled during the Jobs era because iOS had no frameworks to have multiple screen sizes.
Except they still offered options, but without modularity, so you had more SKUs to track in your logistics - you still need to track the parts you solder down, except now instead of shipping a base system and being able to make a "CTO" version, or just let authorised resellers with authorised service points apply the right parts, you need to wait till a whole extra SKU gets moved through thousands of kilometers of logistic chain for your one tiny order.
Maybe the experience in USA with Apple Stores is different, but when forced to buy a Mac by work recently I had to deal with some ridiculous wait times just for asking for 32G ram.
Maybe the experience in USA with Apple Stores is different, but when forced to buy a Mac by work recently I had to deal with some ridiculous wait times just for asking for 32G ram.
It's so much better in the USA that I wait until I visit home to do anything Apple related, whether it's to order a new custom laptop or to send my laptop in for service.
For example, I needed my logic board + keyboard replaced and it landed on my doorstep 24 hours later.
Definitely a different experience everywhere else I've been when dealing with Apple whether it's Mexico City or Lisbon. Most places are even lucky to have an actual Apple Store rather than some sort of certified 3rd party with questionable liability.
For example, I needed my logic board + keyboard replaced and it landed on my doorstep 24 hours later.
Definitely a different experience everywhere else I've been when dealing with Apple whether it's Mexico City or Lisbon. Most places are even lucky to have an actual Apple Store rather than some sort of certified 3rd party with questionable liability.
>> For example, I needed my logic board + keyboard replaced and it landed on my doorstep 24 hours later.
You mean a new unit? I highly doubt the repair happened in 24 hours.
You mean a new unit? I highly doubt the repair happened in 24 hours.
When I ordered a max spec MBP there was a 2 week lead time before it was shipped overnight directly from Shenzhen to our office in California.
My interpretation was that Apple does not build and hold inventory of every SKU, certain configurations are built at the time of purchase and it took 2 weeks for the factory to process our order.
My interpretation was that Apple does not build and hold inventory of every SKU, certain configurations are built at the time of purchase and it took 2 weeks for the factory to process our order.
> One way Apple has become a trillion dollar company is by minimizing skus.
One way. The other is, if your computer breaks you either upgrade or spend a lot to have it repaired by Apple. There's no downside in using non soldered down ram and storage, it's just the nth lock in strategy.
One way. The other is, if your computer breaks you either upgrade or spend a lot to have it repaired by Apple. There's no downside in using non soldered down ram and storage, it's just the nth lock in strategy.
Storage is one thing and I agree it should be M.2 (though there are other complicating issues like compatibility with 3rd party SSDs), but RAM requirements for desktop / laptop PCs have largely held steady for the last decade (at 16 to 32GB). Sure there are specialized uses for more than that, but you're almost always better off executing those workloads in the cloud than on your laptop.
You mean like video editing / special effects?
I really qeustion this is something that should be moved to cloud, as it's really easy to have several Terrabytes of source material one has to handle.
Apple's product line is "simple" for marketing reasons. It's easier for customers to understand what product is right for them, then funnel them into configuration option trees. While limiting SKUs is still good retail practice (especially if you primarily sell through indirect channels), the ability for customers to easily understand your product portfolio is what's really important.
I do agree that they have slipped in this area, though I think it's an inevitable consequence of being a trillion dollar company. Apple was only able to become a trillion dollar company because their marketing and operations were easier to manage, and companies in a market-leading position typically grow until the point their size overwhelms their ability to steer the ship.
I do agree that they have slipped in this area, though I think it's an inevitable consequence of being a trillion dollar company. Apple was only able to become a trillion dollar company because their marketing and operations were easier to manage, and companies in a market-leading position typically grow until the point their size overwhelms their ability to steer the ship.
The thing about that is they could minimize SKUs even more by providing socketed ram and storage. The permutations of that are much more numerous than adding a touch bar vs physical keys option.
>> The thing about that is they could minimize SKUs even more by providing socketed ram and storage.
Okay, but then they’d lose money by not selling their proprietary parts.
Okay, but then they’d lose money by not selling their proprietary parts.
Apparently RAM and SSD are no longer soldered.
https://twitter.com/axi0mX/status/1194621631856967688
Edit: Tweet deleted, info is most likely wrong.
https://twitter.com/axi0mX/status/1194621631856967688
Edit: Tweet deleted, info is most likely wrong.
That is speculation based off the wording they used in the description. He reached this conclusion because it said RAM/SSD were "not user accessible" and they used to say "built into the computer" - no one really knows the answer. I imagine they remain soldered.
One only needs to take a look at the press images to see that they remain soldered on - https://www.apple.com/newsroom/images/product/mac/standard/A... for example, there's just no space for SODIMM's to fit.
Really annoying they continue to do this, especially given they charge excessive markup on memory upgrades (2x32GB DDR4 SODIMMS average $250-300, Apple charges you $800 for 64GB of memory).
Really annoying they continue to do this, especially given they charge excessive markup on memory upgrades (2x32GB DDR4 SODIMMS average $250-300, Apple charges you $800 for 64GB of memory).
> Really annoying they continue to do this, especially given they charge excessive markup on memory upgrades
This is exactly why they solder it on - so they can charge those prices. They've created a monopoly on hardware upgrades and repairs for their machines. This is why a lot of people refuse to buy Apple laptops these days.
This is exactly why they solder it on - so they can charge those prices. They've created a monopoly on hardware upgrades and repairs for their machines. This is why a lot of people refuse to buy Apple laptops these days.
You can't upgrade a MacBook Pro after it has been purchased so not sure what monopoly you think Apple has.
And the reason why they solder it is because it reduces the thickness of the laptops. Those clips/connectors don't come for free.
And the reason why they solder it is because it reduces the thickness of the laptops. Those clips/connectors don't come for free.
Those clips/connectors don't come for free, but the ability to price discriminate is obviously highly valuable to Apple.
They have a monopoly on repairs. And with other laptops, you can certainly upgrade at least the SSD independently. With Macs, you have to buy a whole new machine.
And that's on top of the amount you are already paying for the base 16GB, so in reality it is $800+the cost of the 16GB
Yep. This is why I made the linux switch and I'm a happy Dell customer because of it.
After much deliberation, I bought a 2017 13" MBP, upspecced to 512GB SSD and 16GB RAM. While I've not had a complete failure from the keyboard, it did need looking at at the Apple Store when it also had the entire display assembly replaced because the keyboard had damaged the screen - despite me looking after it well, always putting it in a soft slip case and then a laptop bag.
While I've liked some elements of the design, it's not (to me) a Pro piece of kit, and I've sine replaced it with a 2016 15" MBP which is much better built and doesn't need extra dongles to connect to everyday devices (and has magsafe, which is the best piece of design I've seen in many years).
Given this performance, I'll never buy a new Macbook again - particularly given all the issues about thermal throttling, battery life and indeed the way that macOS seems now to be going.
Don't get me wrong, there are elements of the 2017 MBP that I love - it looks amazing, the screen is fantastic and it's just so precisely made. But the lack of ports, the lack of ruggedness, the keyboard and the performance outweigh any 'look, shiny!' feeling I have about it - so much so that I've not sold it because I feel like I'm stitching the buyer up - even though they've not held their price compared to previous models, which shows that people know this to be the case, and the keyboard still has the 4 year warranty in place.
While I've liked some elements of the design, it's not (to me) a Pro piece of kit, and I've sine replaced it with a 2016 15" MBP which is much better built and doesn't need extra dongles to connect to everyday devices (and has magsafe, which is the best piece of design I've seen in many years).
Given this performance, I'll never buy a new Macbook again - particularly given all the issues about thermal throttling, battery life and indeed the way that macOS seems now to be going.
Don't get me wrong, there are elements of the 2017 MBP that I love - it looks amazing, the screen is fantastic and it's just so precisely made. But the lack of ports, the lack of ruggedness, the keyboard and the performance outweigh any 'look, shiny!' feeling I have about it - so much so that I've not sold it because I feel like I'm stitching the buyer up - even though they've not held their price compared to previous models, which shows that people know this to be the case, and the keyboard still has the 4 year warranty in place.
> Mac Pro starts at $5,999 and Pro Display XDR starts at $4,999.
Is this the first time we got a starting price on the Mac Pro?
Is this the first time we got a starting price on the Mac Pro?
Was in certain parts of the Apple website before.
No, it was mentioned during the WWDC introduction.
No, I'm pretty sure the starting price for Mac Pro was announced when the machine was revealed.
6016 x 3384 @ 32" for that screen, pretty nice. I'll take 4!
(if I won the lottery)
(if I won the lottery)
So basically they made what the 2016 lineup should've been.
In November 2019.
OK.
In November 2019.
OK.
Holy heck, they re-added a physical escape key. That's a huge improvement. a slight shame they didn't just move the touchbar up and re-add the F key row too, but it is a good compromise and improvement regardless.
This could be the one a lot of people have been waiting for if the new switches/design pans out.
PS - Although I might be an unusual demographic as I touch type and wouldn't use the touchbar regardless (since I look at the screen, not the backs of my hands while I interact with a Mac).
This could be the one a lot of people have been waiting for if the new switches/design pans out.
PS - Although I might be an unusual demographic as I touch type and wouldn't use the touchbar regardless (since I look at the screen, not the backs of my hands while I interact with a Mac).
> physical escape key
I'm happy we VIM users have been loud enough to get the most important key back. :-)
I know there's Ctrl-[ but it's 20 years of muscle memory to retrain, and I don't want to do that.
I'm happy we VIM users have been loud enough to get the most important key back. :-)
I know there's Ctrl-[ but it's 20 years of muscle memory to retrain, and I don't want to do that.
I really recommend rebinding caps lock to escape. macOS lets you do that natively in keyboard setting nowadays. Still muscle memory to relearn, of course.
Caps Lock is already my Ctrl key, I don't want to get cramps everytime I press Ctrl-C.
I got used to capslock in less than a day when I got MBP.
I recommend BetterTouchTool to remove the faux escape key and replace it with something as annoying as "Previous track".
After listening to the same track for a few hours it really stuck.
After listening to the same track for a few hours it really stuck.
But you can't rebind esc to anything (natively), so you lose caps lock. Am I the only one who declares constants and envvars in capitals? And how do people write SQL? With their elbow on the shift key?
The new versions of sql don’t require capital letters on all the keywords. :p
More seriously color syntax highlighting works far better than capitalizing almost everything in sight. I’d recommend dropping the caps convention.
More seriously color syntax highlighting works far better than capitalizing almost everything in sight. I’d recommend dropping the caps convention.
Caps for envvars is not a cosmetic convention, it's a style convention to indicate if a variable was sourced from the shell/parent/sourced file vs an internal definition.
Caps for constants is a long standing convention in many style guides and standard libraries.
Caps for constants is a long standing convention in many style guides and standard libraries.
You appear to be referring to shell scripts. I do not have an opinion on shell script capitalization. However, my opinion on capital keywords in SQL is that it is a relic of an older time when it was used to help visual parsing of the query.
Going further I’m of the opinion that color syntax highlighting does that job far better thus rendering the capital convention obsolete.
Note: you may have a different opinion than me and if you do the laws of the code formatting holy war demand that I assert that you’d be wrong.
Going further I’m of the opinion that color syntax highlighting does that job far better thus rendering the capital convention obsolete.
Note: you may have a different opinion than me and if you do the laws of the code formatting holy war demand that I assert that you’d be wrong.
acronyms?
I either hold down shift for short vars or use the vim uppercase motion. After a variable is declared then I use autocomplete.
SQL does not have to be written in uppercase generally. If you care, use an autoformatter.
SQL does not have to be written in uppercase generally. If you care, use an autoformatter.
I have Karabiner Elements configured to toggle CapsLock with the LShift+RShift combination. Pretty handy, and unlikely to ever hit it accidentally.
I've always just typed constants and SQL with my pinky on the left Shift key. It feels easier than having to toggle Caps Lock all the time.
In situations where I'm excited and messaging my friends to yell, I've typed entire sentences mostly holding down Left Shift. After some experimentation, it looks like even for normal sentence capitalization, I never use Right Shift unless I'm typing one-handed.
In situations where I'm excited and messaging my friends to yell, I've typed entire sentences mostly holding down Left Shift. After some experimentation, it looks like even for normal sentence capitalization, I never use Right Shift unless I'm typing one-handed.
I wonder if there's a way to configure a double-press of left Shift to enable Caps Lock, like we're used to on phone keyboards.
Seems like Karabiner can handle that: https://github.com/pqrs-org/Karabiner-Elements/issues/346
Karabiner Elements is free and will let you bind Esc to Caps Lock. It actually allows general remapping for instance I use a Microsoft Sculpt keyboard with my Mac and have that stupid menu key remapped to be a second Option.
I stopped using caps in SQL a few years ago, it changed my life for the better
Yeah I SHIFT everything capital letters. Feel better than Capslock.
Not a Mac user but I wish my laptop has semi-full size keyboard (that includes everything excluding the number pad), but that's too big for laptops I guess :(
Using Karabiner, I have caps lock mapped to escape, and shift+caps lock toggles caps lock.
Many of us remapped Caps Lock to Ctrl years ago. I know there's a way to use it for both but it's not smooth because it adds a firing delay.
Best move is to bind `jj` to escape.
Except that doesn’t work in every other app that doesn’t understand vi keys.
I’ve been doing this, as prompted by being assigned a touchstrip MacBook at my last job.
Have to say I was able to retrain pretty quickly. jj is now my first instinct even on full-sized keyboards. I now think it’s really an improvement. All about staying on that home row as much as possible..
Have to say I was able to retrain pretty quickly. jj is now my first instinct even on full-sized keyboards. I now think it’s really an improvement. All about staying on that home row as much as possible..
What kind of monster doesn’t map Caps Lock to CTRL??
I’ve only been using vim for about 10 years but I’m pretty sure I’ve hit escape less than a few thousand times in those years. One of the first things I did was imap jk <Esc> and it turns out that’s really all I need Escape for (Ctrl-C is goto to return to normal mode)...
I think it's more like Excel users have been loud enough. Esc is very important for Excel.
You shouldn't be happy that they added that back, you should be pissed that they took it out in the first place, well knowing how many developers use Mac.
Whats with you guys and the ESC key? It's so far away do you actually use it? I map caps-lock to ESC/Hyper key which I find pretty useful.
I can reach it from the starting row (ASDF) of my left hand without moving it. This might be more impactful to people with small hands.
I grew up playing games like StarCraft so I have muscle memory of moving my hand to the top row for control group management. It's no big deal.
Vim
I'm old and I've been using vim for decades. Remapping caps lock on the internal keyboard would just confuse me because I use my external keyboard as much as I use the internal one, and my external keyboard has caps lock remapped to Command.
The remapping can be used on all your connected keyboards and per keyboard, whatever you prefer.
And if you want extended remapping I'd recommend https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/ especially if you're missing the function keys, you can remap that to be fn + number row. So you will have easy access to those as well.
And if you want extended remapping I'd recommend https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/ especially if you're missing the function keys, you can remap that to be fn + number row. So you will have easy access to those as well.
> Whats with you guys and the ESC key? It's so far away do you actually use it?
You're joking. You realize this forum is filled with programmers and other digital creative professionals, right?
You're joking. You realize this forum is filled with programmers and other digital creative professionals, right?
I am both a digital creative professional and a developer/programmer and I can't remember when was the last time I pressed the escape key. If anything, it might have been to exit a full-screen video where the UI had mysteriously disappeared because some crappy website couldn't deal with an ad-blocker.
Programmers and creative professionals don't unilaterally love or need the ESC key like you're suggesting.
Programmers and creative professionals don't unilaterally love or need the ESC key like you're suggesting.
For me frequent usecase for ESC is to hide some popup that you opened by accident.
Like "Save As" dialog / rename file / Purchase SublimeText License / etc. In macOS you can hide many types of dialogs with ESC
Like "Save As" dialog / rename file / Purchase SublimeText License / etc. In macOS you can hide many types of dialogs with ESC
That's fine but you can still do that without the physical key, can't you? I'm still able to escape out of dialogs like that without needing a physical key.
You can also type on a smartphone without a physical keyboard...
That's exactly what I mean, yall are smart, that's why I assumed yall would remap it somewhere that makes sense.
If anything, I'd remap capslock to be escape.
Ya, i've used this: https://brettterpstra.com/2017/06/15/a-hyper-key-with-karabi... to do that.
And having the hyper key is awesome (command+control+option+shift). Makes it super handy for shortcuts to open commonly used program shortcuts like calendar etc
And having the hyper key is awesome (command+control+option+shift). Makes it super handy for shortcuts to open commonly used program shortcuts like calendar etc
"Holy heck, they re-added a physical escape key. That's a huge improvement"
Amazing how this can be the first comment. What would be next? USB ports? Even jack ports on the iPhone?! /s
Amazing how this can be the first comment. What would be next? USB ports? Even jack ports on the iPhone?! /s
Our VIM Overlords
> a slight shame they didn't just move the touchbar up and re-add the F key row too
yeah, considering the massive 16" size, there's definitely room for another row of keys. I could see if a diminuitive air came out with touchbar, you want both weight and space savings so nuke it. but with 16" and six speakers just add the damn keys!
yeah, considering the massive 16" size, there's definitely room for another row of keys. I could see if a diminuitive air came out with touchbar, you want both weight and space savings so nuke it. but with 16" and six speakers just add the damn keys!
> Although I might be an unusual demographic as I touch type
This gave me a chuckle since nearly every person I know (90% at least) is a touch typer.
This gave me a chuckle since nearly every person I know (90% at least) is a touch typer.
Great, now I hope they make a 13-inch version. There's no reason to sacrifice mobility in a pro laptop.
Agreed! I'm waiting for the rumours for the 13" now.
https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/ - 13 and 16 inch available
The 13" is still the old model with the butterfly switched, full size arrow keys, no physical esc and many more irritations.
Unfortunately, I think this model is still the older model without the new exclusive ESC key and the 9th gen CPUs
thats the old model with the flawed keyboard, no ESC key etc.
the 13-inch models are from 2017
What a race conflict ^
Couldn’t agree more! It’s so frustrating how the 13” is treated like it doesn’t have to perform.
Dear god, if Apple ever made a 14 inch (in 13 inch body) with a dedicated GPU, even if it was thicker to keep the same size battery, take my money.
I too sincerely hope that's coming next year
Made a special point to request an Air instead of a Pro when I started my new job recently. Office manager was confused and insisted everyone else was using Pros but I stayed strong. No regrets.
Will the fan make something this time or will it be a placebo again?
In the UK and the `Buy` button redirects to a not found page.
https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/go/macbook_pro/select this 404s for me.
https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/go/macbook_pro/select this 404s for me.
It seems to be a global issue.
Edit: Replaced the _ with a - and it works
Edit: Replaced the _ with a - and it works
Anyone has price prediction for this beast ?
It's starting at the same price as the previous one, $2399
For those of you mentioning the esc key, I suggest mapping capslock to esc, I've been doing that for years now (both Linux and Mac) and it's awesome. Except when you're using someone else's computer and constantly turn capslock on and off...
Edit: You can do this natively since Mojave(?) in the keyboard settings without having to resort to something like Karabiner.
Edit: You can do this natively since Mojave(?) in the keyboard settings without having to resort to something like Karabiner.
Unless that’s where you’ve already remapped ctrl.
Why not both? My QMK mechanical keyboards (and, I just noticed, Karabiner Elements) can support turning Caps Lock into Ctrl+KEY if pressed with something else, and ESC if pressed by itself. Best of all possible worlds.
Found the SunOS refugee!
I have both using Karabiner-Elements. Escape when pressed alone, ctrl if pressed with something else.
I had that setup, then I noticed something didn't feel quite right on some apps: apparently sometimes I tend to press Ctrl to enter some key combination, depress it immediately after and it fires the ESC key, which might have unintended consequences (i.e. closing a window I was reading)
I do that on my Macbook Pro. The only drawback is when I go to any other machine that doesn't have Caps Lock remapped and I'm toggling caps lock on/off all the time.
Particularly annoying when you're a vim user :D
Particularly annoying when you're a vim user :D
> The new Magic Keyboard also features a physical Escape key
Thank god for the return to sanity
Thank god for the return to sanity
I'm sure they're still rolling this out.. the "buy" button on the MacBook page leads to "Page Not Found".[0] Unfortunate, because I've been waiting for the 16-inch ever since the first rumor came up..
[0] https://www.apple.com/us/shop/go/macbook_pro/select
[0] https://www.apple.com/us/shop/go/macbook_pro/select
If this holds up, then man... am I happy.
I ran the gamut looking for comparable laptops recently in an effort to figure out what I'd do if they didn't get it together, and the options really vary and nothing feels as nice.
I ran the gamut looking for comparable laptops recently in an effort to figure out what I'd do if they didn't get it together, and the options really vary and nothing feels as nice.
I can't see myself spending this much for a laptop but I guess there is a market for it.
Is the form factor the same as 15" Macbook Pro or is this bigger? Did Apple simply reduce bezels on the sides of the screen to fit 16" display instead of the standard 15"?
[deleted]
For less money something more open and more powerful? https://system76.com/laptops/galago
Here is a nickel kid: buy yourself a real computer -Dilbert
Here is a nickel kid: buy yourself a real computer -Dilbert
Can I use on it my company provided Adobe suit to create images, sprites and mockups and then use them to create iOS apps?
Sure, just install OSX-KVM and run macOS as a VM
And it's all perfectly legal and as user friendly as picking up brand, spanky new MBP from Apple Store?
Well, you also get $1550 in cash when buying the base model. I am sure that this is more than enough to pay someone to make it just as user friendly.
$2,399 For escape key - Not bad. Maybe next year we'll get full keyboard for $3,399!
To be fair it's a bit more than just ESC key.
11 years ago I bought a 15” MacBook Pro, the first model year with the unibody design. I’m still using it almost every day for web browsing, watching videos, editing documents, etc.
In 2008, it cost $2,400. The new 16” released today costs... $2,400.
In 2008, it cost $2,400. The new 16” released today costs... $2,400.
Which means they took a reduction in margin to keep the price the same. Prices otherwise have risen, because of inflation. Check an inflation calculator and then you’ll be overjoyed Apple has a commitment to maintaining pricing standards for its products.
Meh, it's just a matter of efficiency, the bulk prices they get from manufacturers, the fact that they're basically using the same assembly lines for 10 years, with the same suppliers &.
TV got much much cheaper in the last 10 years too and that's not because manufacturer cut their margins, mass production + mature tech + price/perf going down = price stagnates or drops.
TV got much much cheaper in the last 10 years too and that's not because manufacturer cut their margins, mass production + mature tech + price/perf going down = price stagnates or drops.
TV's became a lot cheaper because they are 'Smart" all these companies are now subsidizing the TV cost because they are data mining and selling off your information.
Ok, then let's say, GPUs, CPUs, screen panels, hdd/ssd &c. I mean, does anyone believe apple is giving up margin to absorb inflation ?
Yes, I stated as such. I don’t work at Apple, but I am a Product Manager. Pricing is a critical part of product market segmentation. Apple’s pricing is a deliberate choice, not an accident, and they absolutely give up margin for volume.
The first plasma TV I bought was 42" and $2400. It was replaced a few years ago by a 62" plasma that has a tenth of the bezel, weighs at least half as much, and cost $800. There is no network hardware in either device.
So after inflation, the new version is about 20% cheaper and a lot more powerful? Yes, I get that you can do every day web browsing/watching videos/document editing, but that's not really the point of this machine.
[deleted]
Yeah, but that extra inch, man!
I agree, though. My old 2011 MBP was fantastic. A few months ago the video card finally died, otherwise I'd still be using it. Modern macbooks barely seem to have any keyboard keys anymore.
I agree, though. My old 2011 MBP was fantastic. A few months ago the video card finally died, otherwise I'd still be using it. Modern macbooks barely seem to have any keyboard keys anymore.
Also have a 17 in. 2011 mbp, There is a workaround to get it working with the on board video bypassing the failing video card, but it doesn't seem like a long term fix.
Sounds interesting. Do you have a link where this is explained?
A friend claims I can temporarily fix my video card by 'baking' it, whatever that is.
A friend claims I can temporarily fix my video card by 'baking' it, whatever that is.
https://gist.github.com/cdleon/ae1542279598fe80f527400cc354a...
is a pretty good exlanation.
is a pretty good exlanation.
And my Quadra 950 cost three times that in 1992 dollars.
I have the same 15” from late 2008 sitting in storage at home. Surprised you’re still using it! What OS version?
Sometimes I like to look at the price of Apple stock in 2008 and wonder how much money I would have today if I had instead bought 2.5k USD worth of shares in 2008 instead of the laptop - it’s depressing.
Sometimes I like to look at the price of Apple stock in 2008 and wonder how much money I would have today if I had instead bought 2.5k USD worth of shares in 2008 instead of the laptop - it’s depressing.
This isn't correct. The late 2008 Macbook Pro base price was $1,999 [1]. The new 16" base price is $2,400 [2].
[1] https://lowendmac.com/2008/15-macbook-pro-late-2008/
[2] https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/16-inch
[1] https://lowendmac.com/2008/15-macbook-pro-late-2008/
[2] https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/16-inch
My processor speed is 2.53, so based on your [1], I must have bought the $2,500 model. But I remember getting some kind of Black Friday deal on it; that's how I know it's about 11 years old.
I recently threw my 2010-2011 15" MacBook Pro out of the door, I actually couldn't believe how chunky and heavy it was, it was super weird to hold it. I actually still worked, although a bit slow, and the battery would only last for about 30 minutes, but still worked.
>11 years ago I bought a 15” MacBook Pro, the first model year with the unibody design. I’m still using it almost every day for web browsing, watching videos, editing documents, etc.
You are very fortunate; mine got hit with the EM209 issue twice. An AASP told me that it almost inevitably affects the 2008 and 2009 models.
Apple did improve the model, though. The mid-2012 non-Retina model I'm typing on is seven years old and going strong, albeit with one keyboard repair (something that also affected my 2008 model twice).
You are very fortunate; mine got hit with the EM209 issue twice. An AASP told me that it almost inevitably affects the 2008 and 2009 models.
Apple did improve the model, though. The mid-2012 non-Retina model I'm typing on is seven years old and going strong, albeit with one keyboard repair (something that also affected my 2008 model twice).
I'm amazed how accurate the rumour mill is in Shenzhen.
First heard about it back in March, when all OEMs were scrambling to make lookalike products before Apple's release.
Would be interesting to know if they went back to Samsung panels from LG. I remember Samsung salesmen were pushing hard their new 500 and 600 nit panels a year ago.
First heard about it back in March, when all OEMs were scrambling to make lookalike products before Apple's release.
Would be interesting to know if they went back to Samsung panels from LG. I remember Samsung salesmen were pushing hard their new 500 and 600 nit panels a year ago.
So the top of the line specs get you:
* 2.4GHz 8‑core 9th‑generation Intel Core i9 processor, Turbo Boost up to 5.0GHz
* 64GB 2666MHz DDR4 memory
* AMD Radeon Pro 5500M with 8GB of GDDR6 memory
* 8TB SSD storage
for $6099USD. I wonder how it will handle the thermals.
* 2.4GHz 8‑core 9th‑generation Intel Core i9 processor, Turbo Boost up to 5.0GHz
* 64GB 2666MHz DDR4 memory
* AMD Radeon Pro 5500M with 8GB of GDDR6 memory
* 8TB SSD storage
for $6099USD. I wonder how it will handle the thermals.
I have a similarly-spec'd System76 Oryx Pro that cost less than half. No soldered DIMM's either :)
You really don't though? The top of the line comprable configuration has a significantly worse display, 75% of the SSD storage (that's also significantly slower), a worse graphics card and costs ~$4700.
According to the System76 site, they charge $1798 just for the SSD.
Not saying it completely makes up for difference in price - but there is no way I'm buying a new laptop with 1080p screen
[deleted]
How is the trackpad on there?
I bought a thinkpad since at least the keyboard is as good as my mbp 2012 but the trackpad is horrible.
I bought a thinkpad since at least the keyboard is as good as my mbp 2012 but the trackpad is horrible.
For reference, a Dell Inspiron (~$400) can have a Intel Core 10th gen (+50% L1/L2 and AVX512).
They have a much lower TDP though, so they aren't comparable. There is no 10th gen yet that fits the TDP of the 16 inch MBP.
With 8GB RAM and 256GB SSD. And a low res 768p display.
Upgradable, upgradable. And I only see 1080p for the 15" even for the cheaper ones. I'm outside US, though.
So another 8GB of RAM, 256GB of storage and a better display for $2000? That does not seem like a great bargain.
Or you could get a thinkpad p52 with xeon CPU & 128GB RAM.
Edit: also comes with 2NVME slots and a sata one. You could have 6TB on it or even more
> for $6099USD. I wonder how it will handle the thermals
45W is easily doable, gaming notebook vendors can easily get up to 100W in a mobile package.
Apple and other "major brands" had a string of borderline laughable engineering mistakes over the past 5 years.
For example, in their latest 12 inch Macbook, they simply put a blower to work as an exhaust fan, but then forgot that the keyboard membrane has no sealing just above it.
45W is easily doable, gaming notebook vendors can easily get up to 100W in a mobile package.
Apple and other "major brands" had a string of borderline laughable engineering mistakes over the past 5 years.
For example, in their latest 12 inch Macbook, they simply put a blower to work as an exhaust fan, but then forgot that the keyboard membrane has no sealing just above it.
I thought the 12" macbook does not have a fan?
What is the state of deep learning on AMD? Is this GPU usable with pytorch?
Pretty bad. There is pytorch for rocm (AMD's CUDA emulation) but I don't think anyone actually uses it.
https://github.com/ROCmSoftwarePlatform/pytorch/issues
I don't think you'll be doing much local ML work on this laptop
https://github.com/ROCmSoftwarePlatform/pytorch/issues
I don't think you'll be doing much local ML work on this laptop
Darn looks like im stuck with colab. Well at least I can use dask on the bus :)
Yeah, generally a cloud based approach to training models is better than on your mac. AMD folks have been working on RoCM for some time and it works reasonably well for common models but the AMD GPU HW isn't pervasive like Nvidia GPUs in places like AWS.
If you are looking at using Colab for prototyping, you can also try TPUs which are now supported for PyTorch. Here is the link some additional info including some Colab NBs: https://github.com/pytorch/xla
If you are looking at using Colab for prototyping, you can also try TPUs which are now supported for PyTorch. Here is the link some additional info including some Colab NBs: https://github.com/pytorch/xla
Apple must have sunk some serious cash into the touch bar. I can't believe it is still a thing.
They're just notoriously bad at admitting being wrong. Just look at how many keyboard iterations it took to get back to the old working keyboards.
For me personally think this could work, not having an esc button was a deal breaker for me but this might just convince me to finally upgrade my old mbp retina
For me personally think this could work, not having an esc button was a deal breaker for me but this might just convince me to finally upgrade my old mbp retina
I'm not against spending money on essential tools of the trade that you keep for years but carrying around a super expensive laptop makes me feel really nervous e.g. it could get stolen, dropped, get wet in the rain, drinks spilt on it.
When I don't need the extra power, I think I'd rather travel with an easy to replace $900 laptop than a $3,000 one for ease of mind.
When I don't need the extra power, I think I'd rather travel with an easy to replace $900 laptop than a $3,000 one for ease of mind.
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It's the opposite for me. I would use the €4000 HP ZBook from work on the subway or on the street. But I wouldn't use my €1000 mid-2015 MacBook Pro because I know I wouldn't be able to buy a new one if it got stolen or would break.
That makes no sense.
I believe the point is who pays if it breaks.
Money can't buy everything - if they don't make the 2015 chassis anymore (ie. no Touchbar, which some people still very much prefer), then you cant really get a replacement for it, no matter the price.
Don't they still sell refurbs? I bought a refurbed 2015 model like last year
adding theft / damage coverage for a $3k laptop is doable with most home/renters insurance.
I've made a claim on a laptop before and it took a couple of weeks to get a replacement, plus claims make your premiums go up. I'm not saying it's not workable, but I feel more at ease carrying around less expensive equipment that's easier to replace.
Look at the battery, 100Wh!
Do I see an actual, physical escape key? That's probably my only gripe with my 2019 macbook pro 13"
As a person burned by the "improved" 2018 keyboard, I'd wait a couple months to see how sensitive to dust this one is.
It's not the typing experience that was the main problem with the previous keyboard, it was that you couldn't use the laptop outdoors...
It's not the typing experience that was the main problem with the previous keyboard, it was that you couldn't use the laptop outdoors...
Genuinely curious, why did so many developers ask for the return of the physical Escape key when you could easily re-map it to caps lock? Before this was an officially supported option, I always hated having to do big hand-shimmies every time I needed to press the escape key, which is quite often for programs like vim!
Can only speak for myself but here in China we need Caps Lock to switch between languages which is used very very often.
That's fascinating, I didn't realize that key serves multilingual support in some countries. Is that the standard configuration in China or a common setting for that key there?
It's been the macOS default for a few yeas. Before that, we usually assign Cmd+Space for this (in Windows it was Ctrl+Space for switching language and Shift for toggling between English and Chinese). Then Siri came so the combo stopped working. Possibly it was then when Caps Locks became the default.
Because caps lock is already control. :-)
That makes sense, I didn't even consider that some folks already have the key bound to something else.
Hold for control, tap for escape. You'll never go back. :)
For me it is 25 years of vi muscle memory.
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I have caps lock mapped to backspace, and the delete key deletes forward.
I also have press-and-release option/alt for esc, but sometimes get lazy and try to hit the tiny touchbar icon for esc.
A physical escape key will be nice to have, and inverted T arrows will be really nice to have.
I wish they'd added haptic feedback to the rest of the touchbar, but I'll take it.
I also have press-and-release option/alt for esc, but sometimes get lazy and try to hit the tiny touchbar icon for esc.
A physical escape key will be nice to have, and inverted T arrows will be really nice to have.
I wish they'd added haptic feedback to the rest of the touchbar, but I'll take it.
Speaking for myself - I find hitting the normal escape key location natural and easy. Especially when I'm typing fast, I can hit it without accidentally hitting another key (e.g. tab).
This might be in part because I'm a tall man, with large hands and long fingers, and also Esc normally has more of a separation from adjacent keys than capslock does.
But another reason I don't want to remap caps lock is that when I am typing on a coworker's computer, odds are high they don't have things remapped the same way. Imagine looking like an idiot in front of your peers, because your muscle memory makes you not know how to type :)
(Also, I'm not sure if people who do that remapping swap caps lock with a different key? Personally, I fully utilize the caps lock key - it wouldn't be much of an improvement to put it in an unusual location, and getting rid of it is not something I'd consider.)
tl;dr - Different people have diverse habits, preferences and needs. Apple's challenge is to design a keyboard layout that works well for as many as possible.
This might be in part because I'm a tall man, with large hands and long fingers, and also Esc normally has more of a separation from adjacent keys than capslock does.
But another reason I don't want to remap caps lock is that when I am typing on a coworker's computer, odds are high they don't have things remapped the same way. Imagine looking like an idiot in front of your peers, because your muscle memory makes you not know how to type :)
(Also, I'm not sure if people who do that remapping swap caps lock with a different key? Personally, I fully utilize the caps lock key - it wouldn't be much of an improvement to put it in an unusual location, and getting rid of it is not something I'd consider.)
tl;dr - Different people have diverse habits, preferences and needs. Apple's challenge is to design a keyboard layout that works well for as many as possible.
Could @mods please editorialize the title. "The world's best pro notebook" is marketing speech and not a fact.
Seconded. The current title is misleading and not fact based.
TIL there are mods here.
AFAIK, basically there are two: dang and sctb. That may have changed, but this topic is not routinely discussed and I have not heard otherwise. Cultivating HN seems to be their full time job.
For others who might be wondering, this replaces the 15-inch MacBook Pro. There's a small increase in size (15 vs 16):
- Thickness: 1.55cm to 1.62cm (+0.7mm, +4.5%)
- Width: 34.93cm to 35.79cm (+0.86cm, +2.5%)
- Depth: 24.07cm to 24.59cm (+0.52cm, +2.2%)
- Weight: 1.83kg to 2.0kg (+170gr, +9.3%)
The display alone is ~1.3cm wider (and ~0.7cm higher), so there was a small reduction in bezel sizes, allowing the screen to grow more than the rest of the hardware.
- Thickness: 1.55cm to 1.62cm (+0.7mm, +4.5%)
- Width: 34.93cm to 35.79cm (+0.86cm, +2.5%)
- Depth: 24.07cm to 24.59cm (+0.52cm, +2.2%)
- Weight: 1.83kg to 2.0kg (+170gr, +9.3%)
The display alone is ~1.3cm wider (and ~0.7cm higher), so there was a small reduction in bezel sizes, allowing the screen to grow more than the rest of the hardware.
Thanks, I was actually wondering about this.
That's actually a thickness increase of 0.7mm.
Woops! Thanks!
0/10 Too thick, will not buy. Jony Ive wouldn't do this.
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Dang. My 15” is already a hit too big for airplane work and this won’t help. 13 is too small as a daily driver. Can a guy get a 14”??
my thoughts exactly. seems theyre going the wrong way size-wise. rather have 14". drop the 15 AND the 13, imo. reduce skus, improve profit.
There are still people clamoring for a 17". The new 16" is apparently unnoticeably larger than the previous 15" model and I already feel a large difference when working on a 15" compared to a 13". If they enlarged the screen of the 13" to almost-edges it would be really nice tho.
I expect the 13" will eventually move to a 14" similar to the 15 -> 16 change.
FWIW I successfully did some work on a United 787 in cattle class (economy) with my 15" macbook pro in a middle seat. It was tight, but it helped that the guy in the window seat fell asleep leaning to the wall... But yeah, I might resurrect my old trusty 2011 macbook air for situations like this...
Yup, this is pretty much the reason I go with Lenovo Thinkpads. 14" fits nicely in all my bags and is big enough to see two things side by side.
So yeah, Apple is not even on my radar if they don't offer a 14" form factor. I also don't use other Apple products, so there's little reason for me to compromise.
So yeah, Apple is not even on my radar if they don't offer a 14" form factor. I also don't use other Apple products, so there's little reason for me to compromise.
The size increase makes me hope for the 13" becoming a 14"
14", no touchbar, 4 USB-C ports, improved keyboard = the ideal MBP
bonus: add the magsafe port back to achieve god tier
bonus: add the magsafe port back to achieve god tier
I could live with the new touchbar on a 14" MBP. A 14" MBA might be perfect. Will be interesting to see if these other laptops also increase their thickness.
Also non USB-C ports so you don't have to carry a bag full of dongles.
I'd also like the SD card reader back.
Note that the previous display was actually 15.4”... so the increase to 16” is less significant than the headlines imply.
This new model appears to be just slightly smaller and lighter than the 2015 many of us still have. It's basically the same size as the 2015, but with more screen in the same frame.
https://support.apple.com/kb/sp719?locale=en_US
https://support.apple.com/kb/sp719?locale=en_US
I have a question for you Mac users. Assuming that you don't treat the machine badly, no extra care (e.g. never open up to do maintenance), and have to carry it around half of the time. How long do you think a Macbook would last in average?
For the Lenovo I'm using I'd say about 5 years because I break things so easily...it's reaching retirement.
For the Lenovo I'm using I'd say about 5 years because I break things so easily...it's reaching retirement.
I am using a 7 year old 2012 Retina MacBook Pro, it even got the update for Catalina. My wife is using an even older 11 year old 13" MacBook.
They are fragile as fuck. Literally I dropped one three inches onto the carpet and the screen went pop. Also it slowly bent over time in my bag.
This replaced a 2010 MBP which caught fire after I spilled a drink next to it. The case sucks spilled liquids up like a straw!
I use a T470 thinkpad now. It cost less than a replacement screen for a 15” rMBP did! I have literally beaten the shit out of it for months and it just shrugs it off. I also had a T440 which was abused heavily and shrugged it off.
I had an X220 I poured a coffee in and nothing interesting happened too.
Stay with the thinkpads if you’re an idiot like me.
This replaced a 2010 MBP which caught fire after I spilled a drink next to it. The case sucks spilled liquids up like a straw!
I use a T470 thinkpad now. It cost less than a replacement screen for a 15” rMBP did! I have literally beaten the shit out of it for months and it just shrugs it off. I also had a T440 which was abused heavily and shrugged it off.
I had an X220 I poured a coffee in and nothing interesting happened too.
Stay with the thinkpads if you’re an idiot like me.
Experiences vary, some people have had bad experiences but I have a 13" late-2013 MacBook Pro that I take everywhere. The one concession to its comfort is a soft neoprene case but otherwise it gets shoved into bags and moved about constantly.
The thing is a rock. The keyboard still looks (and works) like new with no visible wear on the trackpad. There are a few scuffs and tiny dents on the outer case but nothing noticeable from any distance. One of the rubber feet on the base has fallen off in the last few months but that doesn't bother me too much.
One problem that has developed is that the glass at the top of the bezel has what looks like air behind it. This is cosmetic except that it interferes with the camera, which now is permanently blurry. I replaced the original battery ($49) recently - it lasted almost 6 years and still held 60 minutes of charge.
I figure I can get at least another 12 months out of this thing since it runs Catalina just fine. My next laptop will also be a Mac.
The thing is a rock. The keyboard still looks (and works) like new with no visible wear on the trackpad. There are a few scuffs and tiny dents on the outer case but nothing noticeable from any distance. One of the rubber feet on the base has fallen off in the last few months but that doesn't bother me too much.
One problem that has developed is that the glass at the top of the bezel has what looks like air behind it. This is cosmetic except that it interferes with the camera, which now is permanently blurry. I replaced the original battery ($49) recently - it lasted almost 6 years and still held 60 minutes of charge.
I figure I can get at least another 12 months out of this thing since it runs Catalina just fine. My next laptop will also be a Mac.
My 2012 macbook lasted me 6 years. Probably would have gone later if a water bottle hadn't leaked in my bag and ruined my logic board.
I used a 2011 MacBook Pro for about 6 years, carrying it in a backpack on a bike every day.
My wife is still using 2011 Macbook Pro. I did upgrade it to 16GB RAM (not officially supported but works fine), replaced the original HDD with SSD and installed HDD instead of DVD reader so it ended up with 1.5TB of storage. Works fine so far.
Up until almost 5 years ago, before switching to a Macbook Pro, I used to have various laptops with both Windows and Ubuntu. Here's my belief: A non-Apple laptop that lasts 2+ years, without having to be regularly formatted, without improving the hardware, without giving up performance or needing who knows what kind of tweaking/cleaning, upgrade after upgrade, is a myth. It doesn't exist.
Sure, I know plenty of people who've had the same Lenovo/HP/whatever laptop for 5, even 10 years but every single time I personally used their laptop I was embarassed at how bad the experience was. Sluggish, ugly, with fans spinning like they needed to put out a fire.
After almost 5 years the 13" 2015 Macbook Pro I'm currently writing on hasn't lost one beat. It's as snappy and as usable as the very first day. I haven't formatted once, I've easily kept it up to date, I only replaced the battery because it was lasting 4 hours instead of the original 6-7. I can still edit videos, run VMs, play not-too-demanding games, do Photoshop, like the first day I bought it. And everything makes me think I'll be able to do so for the next 2-3 years, at least.
I've travelled with it to 10 countries and dropped it 5 or 6 times. There are multiple dents on the corners but, damn, this thing is tough!
Sure, I know plenty of people who've had the same Lenovo/HP/whatever laptop for 5, even 10 years but every single time I personally used their laptop I was embarassed at how bad the experience was. Sluggish, ugly, with fans spinning like they needed to put out a fire.
After almost 5 years the 13" 2015 Macbook Pro I'm currently writing on hasn't lost one beat. It's as snappy and as usable as the very first day. I haven't formatted once, I've easily kept it up to date, I only replaced the battery because it was lasting 4 hours instead of the original 6-7. I can still edit videos, run VMs, play not-too-demanding games, do Photoshop, like the first day I bought it. And everything makes me think I'll be able to do so for the next 2-3 years, at least.
I've travelled with it to 10 countries and dropped it 5 or 6 times. There are multiple dents on the corners but, damn, this thing is tough!
I have a 2015 rMBP (base model 15") that used to bike commute to work with me every day for 2 years. Now it's just used daily around the house and is still 100% as good as the day I bought it. I'm glad I worked out a way to keep the laptop from that company.
I'm at a different job now and have a 2018 MBP (usb-c only, 15" base model), less than a year old, that is used on a daily car commute (much gentler than the old bike commute) and the keyboard is giving me lots of grief. I will happily turn this one back into the company.
I'm at a different job now and have a 2018 MBP (usb-c only, 15" base model), less than a year old, that is used on a daily car commute (much gentler than the old bike commute) and the keyboard is giving me lots of grief. I will happily turn this one back into the company.
I have a 5.5 year old MacBook Pro that has been used full time. It still works perfectly. I did replace the battery at around 5 years for $199.
Well with the older models you absolutely didn't have to worry about things breaking. I used and abused a 13" late 2012 model for about 4 years:
* Used it under direct sunlight (and I live in Singapore so it's both hot and humid) multiple times
* Took it out to sea on boats multiple times for testing robotics
* Dropped it on concrete accidentally
* Left it in dusty labs etc
It's display finally died after being splashed with rain water but the machine itself still boots to this day. Apple made them really well but I can't say the same about the newer models.
* Used it under direct sunlight (and I live in Singapore so it's both hot and humid) multiple times
* Took it out to sea on boats multiple times for testing robotics
* Dropped it on concrete accidentally
* Left it in dusty labs etc
It's display finally died after being splashed with rain water but the machine itself still boots to this day. Apple made them really well but I can't say the same about the newer models.
I’ve been using the same 2012 rMBP day in day out since I bought it. I carry it everywhere with me, even on a sailboat when I went on a few months sailing trip in 2015. The thing still runs everything i need for work and non-work (webdev + Final Cut Pro mostly)
I have had to do some surgery on it though (resolder some chip related to the GPU power because I missed the recall window), the battery only lasts about two hours and the screen has a few dead pixels.
Pretty happy about my purchase to be honest.
I was wondering - very strange that the aricle doesn't mention the weight of the new 16" MBP!
The beginning stages of MBP "depression".
I wonder if Apple would bring back the 17in chunky boi? That thing was a beast to carry around, albeit somewhat more feasible than it's competition
I wonder if Apple would bring back the 17in chunky boi? That thing was a beast to carry around, albeit somewhat more feasible than it's competition
I’m frustrated by the 720p camera. That is not good enough quantity.
Would you prefer it had 2 cameras?
"I'm so glad this model has a touchbar"
"I would buy a dell xps but only if it had a touchbar"
things no one ever said.
"I would buy a dell xps but only if it had a touchbar"
things no one ever said.
Well having a Gen1 2016 MBP I feel quite reassured that they didn't drop the concept altogether, because that mean better support for my current machine.
Yes it's a little gimmicky, main feature being that you can swap between customized buttons and ad-hoc sliders when adjusting things. But still nice that they didn't throw everything aboard and manage to compromise between reintroducing ESC and keeping innovation.
Yes it's a little gimmicky, main feature being that you can swap between customized buttons and ad-hoc sliders when adjusting things. But still nice that they didn't throw everything aboard and manage to compromise between reintroducing ESC and keeping innovation.
One of the reasons I'm keeping my MBP w/o touchbar. Although initially I thought I was missing out, I found that by discontinuing this model, they're only proving how great it is.
Agreed. They look/feel so gimmicky IMO.
When I was in the market for the 2019 model (bought a second hand 2015 instead) I tried the touchbar and really liked what it offered in terms of context aware controls. But I quickly realised I could never incorporate it into my workflow since I use my laptop docked most of the time. Meaning I have an external keyboard, without a touchbar. So all productivity gained by a touchbar would only work when I'm not behind a desk. Making investing into the touchbar useless and leaving it as just a gimmick indeed.
Might a desktop computer be a better purchase in that case?
For the record: think twice before buying Dell XPS. I'm on my second now. Poor hardware quality on both.
The first got a full replacement of mainboard, keyboard and battery after short circuiting.
The second came with a broken hinge cover out of the box and there still seems to be a driver problem I haven't figured out (random lags up to 5 seconds or so but usually less multiple times a week if not multiple times a day).
Just my experience though. Have good experience with Latitude though, so this is not to say you should avoid Dell entirely.
The first got a full replacement of mainboard, keyboard and battery after short circuiting.
The second came with a broken hinge cover out of the box and there still seems to be a driver problem I haven't figured out (random lags up to 5 seconds or so but usually less multiple times a week if not multiple times a day).
Just my experience though. Have good experience with Latitude though, so this is not to say you should avoid Dell entirely.
I got a refurb XPS 13 9370 that still seems to be doing fine after a year (I run Fedora on it). I'd previously owned a latitude and while I thought it was a good machine, I wanted something lighter - the quad-core U-series CPUs finally convinced me to try an ultrabook :)
I have heard the XPS 15s tend to have more "issues."
I have heard the XPS 15s tend to have more "issues."
Yeah, new XPS 15 here. Would be a beautiful machine, if it weren't for the constant thermal issues..
I was about to disagree before I realized with my Precision 5520 (analogous to XPS 15) the left hinge is broken and my battery is dead, and they both broke after about a year.
I don't know about the battery but the hinge was certainly a problem with the line in general, since it was a flimsy plastic thing unable to hold the weight of the 4k screen it came with...I'd be a bit surprised if that hasn't been fixed in the around 2.5 years since I bought it though.
I don't know about the battery but the hinge was certainly a problem with the line in general, since it was a flimsy plastic thing unable to hold the weight of the 4k screen it came with...I'd be a bit surprised if that hasn't been fixed in the around 2.5 years since I bought it though.
My 5520 has been flawless and is also just over 2 years old. I have the 1080p matte screen though. Only other laptop I had that has come as close to nirvana as the 5520 was a Thinkpad T42 and 2012 mbp 15.
dead battery might have been my fault, I opened up the laptop to take a look at the hinge and may have shorted something...I think I used a screwdriver or metal tool to push in the connections when reassembling
Same here. One morning I came downstairs and found laptops vents working on full. I left it on the table in sleep mode the previous evening. Laptop was extremely hot, luckily there weren't any papers underneath. After that the fans were constantly on full, often the CPU even locked itself on 0.78GHz and needed to be restarted to stop the throttling. They then replaced the mainboard, CPU, but it seems it's still overheating.
I've been a fan of XPS for a long time, and I'd say Dell is repeating mistakes of Apple. The moment XPS got popular, they started penny pinching, and each subsequent model from 9343 got worse and worse from that.
I saw companies repeating the same mistake times and times again. I'd call it a "Mercedes disease." Mercedes 600 series used to be a supercar of the time, but the moment Mercedes management saw that Americans are OK with it being a regular consumer level car, they made Mercedes the reputation it has in US now "expensive and disposable."
S classe is still a luxury car, but under the skin there is nothing really special about it, and it could've easily sold for half the price if not for Mercedes logo on it. Most of clientele for S600 are the people who are just fine with paying extra $50k for the badge, and there are a whack a lot of them in the US.
I'd say the overoptimisation and product management are the issue. Quoting myself:
> See, a first reduction from ~64Wh to 62Wh might've not been even visible and been a valid "product management" decision, and not impacted the sales.
> A second cut from 62 to 56 might've only deterred few power users, and could also be validated from the same standpoint, if evaluated without knowledge of the context.
> But the third cut from 56 to 52 will blow up, despite the rest of the product getting the biggest year on year improvement ever.
A decision to cut the battery a tiny little bit to save some pennies might've made sense business-wise every single time, but it did cut deep into the positive image of the product.
I saw companies repeating the same mistake times and times again. I'd call it a "Mercedes disease." Mercedes 600 series used to be a supercar of the time, but the moment Mercedes management saw that Americans are OK with it being a regular consumer level car, they made Mercedes the reputation it has in US now "expensive and disposable."
S classe is still a luxury car, but under the skin there is nothing really special about it, and it could've easily sold for half the price if not for Mercedes logo on it. Most of clientele for S600 are the people who are just fine with paying extra $50k for the badge, and there are a whack a lot of them in the US.
I'd say the overoptimisation and product management are the issue. Quoting myself:
> See, a first reduction from ~64Wh to 62Wh might've not been even visible and been a valid "product management" decision, and not impacted the sales.
> A second cut from 62 to 56 might've only deterred few power users, and could also be validated from the same standpoint, if evaluated without knowledge of the context.
> But the third cut from 56 to 52 will blow up, despite the rest of the product getting the biggest year on year improvement ever.
A decision to cut the battery a tiny little bit to save some pennies might've made sense business-wise every single time, but it did cut deep into the positive image of the product.
You have given good reasons to think about avoiding that model.
Lack of touchbar is not one of those good reasons.
Lack of touchbar is not one of those good reasons.
> "I'm so glad this model has a touchbar"
I'm so glad this model has a Touch Bar.
I have seen numerous people who have a MBP 2016 or later which just can't use computers without the Touch Bar experience.
If somebody doesn't find it useful, that's OK, but please, there are a lot of people (who doesn't loudly complain at HN) that finds the Touch Bar useful & incorporates it in one's workflow.
I for myself uses my Touch Bar extensively, from when I'm using Emacs (with a bit of scripting & BTT), Terminal.app, Safari, MS Office Suite, and on and on and on.
I really won't care if Apple would release a MBP without one, but I'm worried Apple will remove the (IMO very useful) concept altogether just because of the loud complainers on the net (like the butterfly mechanism).
I'm so glad this model has a Touch Bar.
I have seen numerous people who have a MBP 2016 or later which just can't use computers without the Touch Bar experience.
If somebody doesn't find it useful, that's OK, but please, there are a lot of people (who doesn't loudly complain at HN) that finds the Touch Bar useful & incorporates it in one's workflow.
I for myself uses my Touch Bar extensively, from when I'm using Emacs (with a bit of scripting & BTT), Terminal.app, Safari, MS Office Suite, and on and on and on.
I really won't care if Apple would release a MBP without one, but I'm worried Apple will remove the (IMO very useful) concept altogether just because of the loud complainers on the net (like the butterfly mechanism).
Well they can actually measure the repair rate of the butterfly mechanism, this is a different thing. That's why they also extended warranty on those keyboards. The defect is measurable, this isn't about complainers on the net.
Or rather, it isn't just about complainers on the net. The design seemed to have incorporated a lot of other feedback from pro users.
Something that seems to satisfy users _and_ is less costly seems to be a no-brainer business decision.
Something that seems to satisfy users _and_ is less costly seems to be a no-brainer business decision.
Can you say slightly more about how you use it in Emacs? I've wondered if something like this is possible (although I'm not sure what would be useful to have it do).
It's a hacked-in-a-afternoon solution, but the gist is that I run a server in Emacs based on the emacs-web-server package[0], and I wrote some scripts that request to them.
I used Better Touch Tool[1] to add the buttons that execute the scripts.
[0] https://github.com/eschulte/emacs-web-server
[1] https://folivora.ai
I used Better Touch Tool[1] to add the buttons that execute the scripts.
[0] https://github.com/eschulte/emacs-web-server
[1] https://folivora.ai
I agree. The touchbar is a good feature. It's a shame that app developers haven't exploited it to its full potential.
> How on earth do you use Emacs without an ESC key?
Hmm, I think I've never used my ESC key when using Emacs, I bind Ctrl to Caps-Lock and call it a day.
BTW, I also frequently (~3-4 times a day) use vim, and I never found it hard to edit with the Touch Bar Esc key. I can find the Esc location without looking, I'm pretty sure anyone can do that. It's just simple: just press the most left part. The non-display part left on the esc button display also works as the esc key, so no problem with that.
(Yes, and that's why I believe that people who hate the Touch Bar b.c. of the no Esc key have never used the MBP. It's really a non-issue.)
Hmm, I think I've never used my ESC key when using Emacs, I bind Ctrl to Caps-Lock and call it a day.
BTW, I also frequently (~3-4 times a day) use vim, and I never found it hard to edit with the Touch Bar Esc key. I can find the Esc location without looking, I'm pretty sure anyone can do that. It's just simple: just press the most left part. The non-display part left on the esc button display also works as the esc key, so no problem with that.
(Yes, and that's why I believe that people who hate the Touch Bar b.c. of the no Esc key have never used the MBP. It's really a non-issue.)
Well, speaking as a daily vim user, you must be much more talented than I am at using a keyboard. I could never get the hang of touch-typing the virtual ESC (especially since in certain workflows I want to be able to rest my finger on the key without pressing it).
It was the thing that finally got me to rebind my mode switch to `jj`. Which works great, until the keyboard decides that "j" is the key it's going to double that day, then it's very frustrating... Fortunately today the keys it has decided to double are "bb" and "88"
It was the thing that finally got me to rebind my mode switch to `jj`. Which works great, until the keyboard decides that "j" is the key it's going to double that day, then it's very frustrating... Fortunately today the keys it has decided to double are "bb" and "88"
Evil escape and binding esc to fd or jk is a game changer
Ive been using one since the touchbar 15” came out and I loathe it.
There’s no physical feedback for the escape touchbar area even after you learn to strike it without looking. It sucks.
There’s no physical feedback for the escape touchbar area even after you learn to strike it without looking. It sucks.
> There’s no physical feedback for the escape touchbar area even after you learn to strike it without looking.
Ah, I also agree that it's a problem. For now, I use the HapticKey[0] app to mitigate the problem. It's wonderful.
[0] https://github.com/niw/HapticKey
Ah, I also agree that it's a problem. For now, I use the HapticKey[0] app to mitigate the problem. It's wonderful.
[0] https://github.com/niw/HapticKey
I used the MBP with touchbar for work. I could not live without the physical escape key, returned the laptop and settled for a Windows laptop.
"It's really a non-issue."
For you. It's a non-issue, for you. That doesn't make other people's experience invalid.
For you. It's a non-issue, for you. That doesn't make other people's experience invalid.
You can still hit ESC on a touchbar Mac. You tap the end of the touchbar where the ESC key should be. It's annoying and unnecessary, but it's not like they just pried the key out with a screwdriver.
I rebind caps lock to escape - it’s a much better use of an otherwise nearly pointless key
It's only pointless if you have a single layout.
It's very useful to switch input layouts.
It's very useful to switch input layouts.
Then it's not capslock. By using it to switch input layouts, you admitted it's useless.
I use caps lock the moment I need to type 2 consecutive upper case characters.
Reading through the comments here, it’s amusing to see how many people make assumptions about how things should be just because that’s how they work.
Someone above claimed that not being able to blind type function keys shows severe keyboard incompetence, something all trained computer typists should be able to do.
Well what about us poor souls who are trained mechanical typewriter typists? We didn’t have function keys?
The age discrimination is real!
Reading through the comments here, it’s amusing to see how many people make assumptions about how things should be just because that’s how they work.
Someone above claimed that not being able to blind type function keys shows severe keyboard incompetence, something all trained computer typists should be able to do.
Well what about us poor souls who are trained mechanical typewriter typists? We didn’t have function keys?
The age discrimination is real!
I rebind it to backspace, as in the Colemak layout.
This works pretty great, especially since eg. ctrl + backspace (I don't know about Macs, does cmd + backspace work?) deletes the entire last word.
Without remapping the capslock you need both hands to execute this shortcut, which makes it much less practical.
This works pretty great, especially since eg. ctrl + backspace (I don't know about Macs, does cmd + backspace work?) deletes the entire last word.
Without remapping the capslock you need both hands to execute this shortcut, which makes it much less practical.
What do you use escape for in emacs? It’s not in any default kebinding, do you mean vi? Even that doesn’t need escape, ctrl + ] keeps you on the home row.
Slightly confused emacs user.
Slightly confused emacs user.
As the meta key, i.e., hitting ESC then x for M-x.
On a Mac I use "option" for this; much shorter reach
Indeed, never even crossed my mind to set the escape key to meta, definitely not a default even for Cocoa emacs.
It's funny but I've been using Emacs for almost 25 years and still use ESC instead of ALT/OPTION, guess that's muscle memory from using Emacs via telnet sessions.
That's my experience, too, I guess it's from learning EMACS and its ancestors on actual VT-100 style terminals with no meta keys.
Alt+Key doesn't save any keystrokes over Esc+Key anyway, and I think the Esc version is easier to type.
Especially things like Esc : (which is Esc then Shift-;) is surely easier to type than Alt-Shift-;.
Especially things like Esc : (which is Esc then Shift-;) is surely easier to type than Alt-Shift-;.
Old timers (like me) use it for meta. Ask anyone over 50!
C-x ESC ESC (translated from C-x <escape> <escape>) runs the command repeat-complex-command
Ctrl-[ - I hated no escape key, but my fingers no longer look for that physical key, even on keyboards that have it. Ctrl-[ is always there, and it is less of a stretch. I've gotten un-used to pressing a real esc key (I hate the touch-bar esc).
Mapped to capslock?
yeah, i got one with touchbar, it's very bad and useless.
about butterfly switches... garbage
about butterfly switches... garbage
Wouldn't normal function keys work pretty much just as well?
Especially for visually-impaired users.
The thing is, you are bound to come across someone who finds a feature useful even if the feature is not useful for the vast majority of the people. I like Apple laptops and own a MBP myself, but I definitely think that the butterfly keyboard and touchbar hurt Apple's reputation. The butterfly keyboard has had a lot of technical problems which is frustrating for the users and hurts Apple's bottom line due to the repair costs. The typing experience on the butterfly keyboard is also not the best due to lack of travel.
The touchbar is a flawed design concept imho. The entire reason I touch type is so that I don't have to look down from my screen. My eyes remain on the screen for 99% of the time I am working. It's jarring and discontinuous for me to have to look down to use the touchbar. That's why I personally never liked it. I think the tactile feedback of a real physical button is essential.
I think Apple realizes this already to some extent because they went and added a physical escape key.
The touchbar is a flawed design concept imho. The entire reason I touch type is so that I don't have to look down from my screen. My eyes remain on the screen for 99% of the time I am working. It's jarring and discontinuous for me to have to look down to use the touchbar. That's why I personally never liked it. I think the tactile feedback of a real physical button is essential.
I think Apple realizes this already to some extent because they went and added a physical escape key.
> The thing is, you are bound to come across someone who finds a feature useful even if the feature is not useful for the vast majority of the people.
I think this sentiment holds true for function keys in general. I the vast majority of people never used them.
I think this sentiment holds true for function keys in general. I the vast majority of people never used them.
> The thing is, you are bound to come across someone who finds a feature useful even if the feature is not useful for the vast majority of the people.
Yeah, and I believe that the fn-keys are the exact symptom. I haven't encountered anyone that uses fn-keys to it's full potential (or at least, more than the Touch Bar can provide).
> The touchbar is a flawed design concept imho. The entire reason I touch type is so that I don't have to look down from my screen.
For simple actions, gaining muscle-memory on Touch Bar virtual buttons are possible. (I myself don't look the Touch Bar when performing simple & repetitive actions like open new Tab, or when pressing the escape key.)
> It's jarring and discontinuous for me to have to look down to use the touchbar.
Well, isn't it something like saying that it's discontinuous to move my hands from the keyboard to the trackpad to operate some GUI app? It's a glance away, and mostly the Touch Bar's actions are predictable & you know when you use it (for example, editing the formatting of some text in the MS Office Suite, or opening the emoji selector, or selecting autocomplete, etc...).
> That's why I personally never liked it.
Yeah, the feature has a variety of tastes. I think I can understand why some people just don't like it, but...
> I think the tactile feedback of a real physical button is essential.
I personally use HapticKey[0] for that.
[0] https://github.com/niw/HapticKey
Yeah, and I believe that the fn-keys are the exact symptom. I haven't encountered anyone that uses fn-keys to it's full potential (or at least, more than the Touch Bar can provide).
> The touchbar is a flawed design concept imho. The entire reason I touch type is so that I don't have to look down from my screen.
For simple actions, gaining muscle-memory on Touch Bar virtual buttons are possible. (I myself don't look the Touch Bar when performing simple & repetitive actions like open new Tab, or when pressing the escape key.)
> It's jarring and discontinuous for me to have to look down to use the touchbar.
Well, isn't it something like saying that it's discontinuous to move my hands from the keyboard to the trackpad to operate some GUI app? It's a glance away, and mostly the Touch Bar's actions are predictable & you know when you use it (for example, editing the formatting of some text in the MS Office Suite, or opening the emoji selector, or selecting autocomplete, etc...).
> That's why I personally never liked it.
Yeah, the feature has a variety of tastes. I think I can understand why some people just don't like it, but...
> I think the tactile feedback of a real physical button is essential.
I personally use HapticKey[0] for that.
[0] https://github.com/niw/HapticKey
> Well, isn't it something like saying that it's discontinuous to move my hands from the keyboard to the trackpad to operate some GUI app? It's a glance away, and mostly the Touch Bar's actions are predictable & you know when you use it (for example, editing the formatting of some text in the MS Office Suite, or opening the emoji selector, or selecting autocomplete, etc...).
I use Vimium for browsing, liberally use keyboard shortcuts and use Vim/vim extensions in other IDE's. So my trackpad use is very limited indeed because I find it discontinuous. But I think the trackpad is much better than the touchbar at least because it's huge, you don't have to precisely touch it in any particular spot, unlike the touchbar.
On my personal lenovo laptop I don't use the trackpad at all and use the trackpoint because it's an easier/faster transition than using the touchpad.
I use Vimium for browsing, liberally use keyboard shortcuts and use Vim/vim extensions in other IDE's. So my trackpad use is very limited indeed because I find it discontinuous. But I think the trackpad is much better than the touchbar at least because it's huge, you don't have to precisely touch it in any particular spot, unlike the touchbar.
On my personal lenovo laptop I don't use the trackpad at all and use the trackpoint because it's an easier/faster transition than using the touchpad.
The thing is, you are bound to come across someone who finds a feature useful even if the feature is not useful for the vast majority of the people.
Absolutely, and Apple put function keys in that category. Yeah, maybe you touch-type those keys way up there at the top, but I'd bet a paycheck that the vast majority of MacBook users will look down before hitting a function key. I've touched typed since I learned on manual typewriters, and I still can't reliably hit the one I want blindly.
Doesn't matter anyway, as soon as I Cmd-Tab to annother app, the key functions all change anyway. But those handy "Fx" labels stay exactly the same despite the function change. But since it's always been this way, it is therefore a superior design and should not be changed.
Absolutely, and Apple put function keys in that category. Yeah, maybe you touch-type those keys way up there at the top, but I'd bet a paycheck that the vast majority of MacBook users will look down before hitting a function key. I've touched typed since I learned on manual typewriters, and I still can't reliably hit the one I want blindly.
Doesn't matter anyway, as soon as I Cmd-Tab to annother app, the key functions all change anyway. But those handy "Fx" labels stay exactly the same despite the function change. But since it's always been this way, it is therefore a superior design and should not be changed.
It's a MacBook Pro. Surely it should care to Pros who have leanred how their keyboard works. Apple doesn't think the touchbar is a noob feature, because the Air (and the actual "MacBook") doesn't have a touchbar)
I think pros should be able to embrace new things. I use emacs and vim for about 70% of what I do and I never use the fn keys. ESC is remapped to caps as well so I'd have preferred a macro key or something instead that I can customise as I please (there is probably some software for that out on the net somewhere anyway but I like native stuff) like define app/global specific keystroke patterns (e.g. you define it as cmd-s so you can use it to save or something) .
The touchbar for sure is lacking something, not sure what though. I agree with apple that the fn row could be utilised better so I applaud them for trying something, not sure if the touchbar is the right way though but should apple stick with it and keep going in the right direction again I will for sure customise the hell out of the touchbar.
The touchbar for sure is lacking something, not sure what though. I agree with apple that the fn row could be utilised better so I applaud them for trying something, not sure if the touchbar is the right way though but should apple stick with it and keep going in the right direction again I will for sure customise the hell out of the touchbar.
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Can you give examples of the touchbar with the scripting?
Wait, that might not work for me -- I use emacs in a terminal.
Wait, that might not work for me -- I use emacs in a terminal.
It shouldn't be impossible for Apple to offer models with and without. Let the market actually decide. Something tells me that if Apple produced exactly the same model of MBP, one with and one without, you'd see a huge preference away from the Touchbar. I could be wrong! But it would be good if users had the choice.
Apple isn't in the business of giving user's choice. I think their argument always has been against the inertia of familiarity and in the case of the butterfly switches and touchbar it's bitten them in the ass but they can't undo the choice for whatever reason
I love my 15” 2017 MBP with a Touch Bar. It’s much easier to mute and slide the volume than my previous MBP. Safari and VScode have Touch Bar features I like. Glad they brought back the esc key.
On previous MBPs you still had to touch the fn key to use F1 etc... I do the same on my newer Mac. Press FN and you get what you need back.
Personally I don’t see why they get all the hate. It’s a little gimmicky but I don’t dislike it. The keyboard was my biggest gripe but Apple replaced it for free in a couple days.
On previous MBPs you still had to touch the fn key to use F1 etc... I do the same on my newer Mac. Press FN and you get what you need back.
Personally I don’t see why they get all the hate. It’s a little gimmicky but I don’t dislike it. The keyboard was my biggest gripe but Apple replaced it for free in a couple days.
I still have physical f-keys, and every time I use my gf's touchbar macbook, I realize I have to look at the touchbar just to do anything, like modify the volume or change the brightness. I run into this every time I use it when I just want to make quick volume adjustments. And it takes multiple taps to get things done that used to take a single button press. Also, I immediately missed global media playback controls.
It's just a showstopper for a lot of us that it's another screen you have to look at. I don't want my eyes to leave the main screen. It's like if they tried to turn the trackpad into a screen: no matter how much functionality it might have, it's still somewhere I don't want to have to look when I'm using a computer.
I also was amazed at how unused it was. You probably named the only apps that use the touchbar because nothing on her computer did. And if they did, it was just cloned UI of UI that the main screen already had. I think the only useful usecase I've noticed is that the touchbar will show the url of the current video when you fullscreen it, if I want to damn it with faint praise.
It's just a showstopper for a lot of us that it's another screen you have to look at. I don't want my eyes to leave the main screen. It's like if they tried to turn the trackpad into a screen: no matter how much functionality it might have, it's still somewhere I don't want to have to look when I'm using a computer.
I also was amazed at how unused it was. You probably named the only apps that use the touchbar because nothing on her computer did. And if they did, it was just cloned UI of UI that the main screen already had. I think the only useful usecase I've noticed is that the touchbar will show the url of the current video when you fullscreen it, if I want to damn it with faint praise.
When I’m doing work I use 2 external monitors with a keyboard and mouse. All the keys I need to be efficient are right on my full sized keyboard. I have a coworker who refuses to use more than one monitor (either his laptop or laptop closed with a small square monitor) so I guess people don’t like to use them.
For personal use I use it on my lap in a chair or on the couch. The extra time it takes to look down is not a show stopper. Switching tabs is nice in Safari because you get a slight preview and it’s also great for media controls.
Do you work on your MPB and do you use external monitors? What apps do you use the function keys for?
If you think it’s unused then take a look at these 3rd party apps.[1] Pock looks pretty cool.
[1] https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/best-touch-bar-apps-...
For personal use I use it on my lap in a chair or on the couch. The extra time it takes to look down is not a show stopper. Switching tabs is nice in Safari because you get a slight preview and it’s also great for media controls.
Do you work on your MPB and do you use external monitors? What apps do you use the function keys for?
If you think it’s unused then take a look at these 3rd party apps.[1] Pock looks pretty cool.
[1] https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/best-touch-bar-apps-...
I initially found the touchbar to mostly be a gimmick, new for the sake of being new and not really bringing anything useful to the table.
A couple of years later and I'm a convert. If I had to buy a new MBP today I would definitely make sure it has a touchbar. It turns out app makers have found some nifty uses for it, like the ability to quickly mute/unmute when in conference calls, quickly changing volume/brightness, stepping through code while debugging etc etc. These are seemingly insignificant quality of life improvements, but I definitely miss them when on a machine without a touchbar. Conversely I haven't missed the Fn-keys, not even once.
That hardware esc key looks tasty though, I hope they bring that to the 13" model.
A couple of years later and I'm a convert. If I had to buy a new MBP today I would definitely make sure it has a touchbar. It turns out app makers have found some nifty uses for it, like the ability to quickly mute/unmute when in conference calls, quickly changing volume/brightness, stepping through code while debugging etc etc. These are seemingly insignificant quality of life improvements, but I definitely miss them when on a machine without a touchbar. Conversely I haven't missed the Fn-keys, not even once.
That hardware esc key looks tasty though, I hope they bring that to the 13" model.
My problem with the TouchBar is that I'm using my laptop with an external screen 90% of the time so I'm never really getting used to it.
If the external keyboard had a TouchBar and I would start incorporating it into my workflow I can see it's use-fullness.
If the external keyboard had a TouchBar and I would start incorporating it into my workflow I can see it's use-fullness.
Maybe now that it's called a "Magic Keyboard" they will sell it as a stand-alone product.
I usually put my laptop in front of me with an external screen above it. That way I get used to the laptop keyboard and can feel right at home in a conference room or wherever.
I usually put my laptop in front of me with an external screen above it. That way I get used to the laptop keyboard and can feel right at home in a conference room or wherever.
They already sell the Magic Keyboard, and I have one on my desk: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MLA22LL/A/magic-keyboard-...
It's very unlikely, but I would like Apple to release the touchbar as a standalone piece of hardware (not attached to a keyboard at all). That way we could have the best of both worlds: physical function keys and a nifty touch device. Would be really useful for music/video editing
It seems like Apple associates the TouchBar more with “touching” than with keyboarding. As in, when you connect an iPad to a Mac using the Sidecar feature, the iPad will display a Touch Bar emulation, because that’s the accessory they think of a Touch Bar as belonging on: an external touch surface, not an external keyboard.
Which is honestly interesting; it seems almost like they’re suggesting that this could grow into a larger feature, where Sidecar is really a kind of “Remote Touch Bar.app”, and you could add larger Touch Bar controls to your app that are only visible through Sidecar. (So you could have OS-level support for e.g. DAWs to display their VSTs onto your iPad for direct manipulation, without needing their own iPad OS app.)
———
I should note, as an aside, that Sidecar lets you keyboard on the Mac host through an iPad’s attached keyboard-case, but doesn’t really treat finger-gestures done on the iPad screen in the Sidecar app as being equivalent to mouse touchpad gestures on the host.
I’m wondering if that’s a conscious design choice, and whether someone at Apple is thinking that the “new HCI paradigm” for desktops will involve still having an external Bluetooth trackpad, but no external Bluetooth keyboard, with that role instead being served by an iPad with a keyboard-case attached to it.
That’d kind of fit—it enables all five(!) interaction methodologies Apple currently has: mouse gestures, keyboard commands, touch inputs, pencil inputs, and touch-bar controls.
But, importantly, it does so while entirely avoiding “gorilla arm” (unlike the huge Microsoft Surface Studio), because your touch surface is small and on the table in front of you, rather than “being” the display. (For most Sidecar iPad gestures, even with a full-sized iPad Pro, you never really have to lift your arm off the table.)
In Apple’s envisioned desktop paradigm, touch is seemingly an input method that you get from a separate input device—one that happens to have a screen—rather than touch being just a “way to do” mousing.
Which is honestly interesting; it seems almost like they’re suggesting that this could grow into a larger feature, where Sidecar is really a kind of “Remote Touch Bar.app”, and you could add larger Touch Bar controls to your app that are only visible through Sidecar. (So you could have OS-level support for e.g. DAWs to display their VSTs onto your iPad for direct manipulation, without needing their own iPad OS app.)
———
I should note, as an aside, that Sidecar lets you keyboard on the Mac host through an iPad’s attached keyboard-case, but doesn’t really treat finger-gestures done on the iPad screen in the Sidecar app as being equivalent to mouse touchpad gestures on the host.
I’m wondering if that’s a conscious design choice, and whether someone at Apple is thinking that the “new HCI paradigm” for desktops will involve still having an external Bluetooth trackpad, but no external Bluetooth keyboard, with that role instead being served by an iPad with a keyboard-case attached to it.
That’d kind of fit—it enables all five(!) interaction methodologies Apple currently has: mouse gestures, keyboard commands, touch inputs, pencil inputs, and touch-bar controls.
But, importantly, it does so while entirely avoiding “gorilla arm” (unlike the huge Microsoft Surface Studio), because your touch surface is small and on the table in front of you, rather than “being” the display. (For most Sidecar iPad gestures, even with a full-sized iPad Pro, you never really have to lift your arm off the table.)
In Apple’s envisioned desktop paradigm, touch is seemingly an input method that you get from a separate input device—one that happens to have a screen—rather than touch being just a “way to do” mousing.
It's ridiculous, touching imo is a vastly less efficient information exchange than typing.
Yeah... it's really contextual (of course). I work with MSSQL a lot these days and really like that Azure Data Studio has a decent sized "Run query" button in the touch bar, and I use the brightness/volume sliders all the time.
Most apps don't use it very well though - I actually quite dislike Safari's overcomplicated tab buttons - I can't make out anything so it's basically useless, and I use cmd left arrow to go back not the touchbar button.
I would love to have a hardware escape key. But despite the shitty butterfly keyboard issues I'm currently going through I want to keep this Macbook as long as possible.
Most apps don't use it very well though - I actually quite dislike Safari's overcomplicated tab buttons - I can't make out anything so it's basically useless, and I use cmd left arrow to go back not the touchbar button.
I would love to have a hardware escape key. But despite the shitty butterfly keyboard issues I'm currently going through I want to keep this Macbook as long as possible.
There were already keys for all those functions...
> like the ability to quickly change volume/brightness
Well, these have physical buttons pre-touchbar, so the touchbar is definitely slower since it requires two clicks (one to summon the slider) and you have to look at it instead of just feeling it.
Well, these have physical buttons pre-touchbar, so the touchbar is definitely slower since it requires two clicks (one to summon the slider) and you have to look at it instead of just feeling it.
You can click on it and immediately swipe left or right, without lifting the finger. Imho it's faster.
Do you find that you can use the touchbar without having to look at it? For me I can press the volume up/volume down buttons without having to take my eyes off the screen. Plus the volume increases and decreases with a constant interval. At this point it's pure muscle memory for me to adjust volume and requires no thought. With the touchbar slider I have to physically look down and put the slider to where I want. For me pressing keys is easier than moving a slider and it's faster.
I'm the same - I tend to use the mute, volume, brightness keys instinctively without looking at the keyboard.
To be fair, I doubt most people, even developers, use the function keys enough to touch type with them.
On keyboards that divide them into groups of 4 (Esc, F1-4, F5-8) I absolutely do. My work laptop has that.
That's a good point. But I suppose this post is mostly about laptops and laptop keyboards don't typically have those groupings.
By "touch type", do you mean "without taking your hands off the home-row" or "without looking down?"
I can't do the former, but I can absolutely do the latter. I can change the volume and brightness without looking down, and do so all the time.
Maybe I'm unusual, but I don't think I am—it's not that hard to learn by feel which keys are towards the opposite ends of the top row.
What I can't do without looking is access the middle keys, namely F4–F9. If Apple wanted to put a touch-bar there, I'd find that perfectly acceptable—I wouldn't consider it a downgrade, at least. The bar would be pretty small by that point though.
I can't do the former, but I can absolutely do the latter. I can change the volume and brightness without looking down, and do so all the time.
Maybe I'm unusual, but I don't think I am—it's not that hard to learn by feel which keys are towards the opposite ends of the top row.
What I can't do without looking is access the middle keys, namely F4–F9. If Apple wanted to put a touch-bar there, I'd find that perfectly acceptable—I wouldn't consider it a downgrade, at least. The bar would be pretty small by that point though.
The latter. Maybe it's not that hard to learn but I suppose I've never really felt inclined to try and touch type since hitting the wrong function key can have a higher "cost" than just typing a wrong letter. Bringing up a help dialog, going full screen, developer console, etc.
fwiw, this isn't something I've consciously "learned", just something I've discovered I can do over time.
Desktop keyboards often have the function keys in groups of 4, making touch typing all of them easy.
To be fair, everyone who took computer typing should have the entire keyboard memorized. I know I can touch type a full keyboard and even use shift+keys as touch typing. You are projecting your own lack of keyboard knowledge.
I touch type everything but the function keys, including using shift, alt, and control.
I'm sure the lack of a touchbar is very annoying to people who have taken such a class but I'm skeptical that most people, or even a significant portion of developers, have taken computer typing.
I'm sure the lack of a touchbar is very annoying to people who have taken such a class but I'm skeptical that most people, or even a significant portion of developers, have taken computer typing.
Been developing for 35+ years, they didn’t teach touch typing back then so I never learned. Just some anecdata.
If you've been developing for 35+ years and you still have to look at the keyboard.... you teach yourself touch typing. Unless touch typing means something other than "not looking at the keyboard before you press the keys"?
I can do it. Show desktop, brightness, media keys, debugging keys. My fingers know them.
I went with a 13" Air this time around. I still have physical function keys, and the fingerprint reader which I like.
Unfortunately, I'm still subject to the quality problems. I'm four months post-purchase, two weeks out of my first keyboard repair(!), and my caps lock and Q keys are already starting to go. :(
I went with a 13" Air this time around. I still have physical function keys, and the fingerprint reader which I like.
Unfortunately, I'm still subject to the quality problems. I'm four months post-purchase, two weeks out of my first keyboard repair(!), and my caps lock and Q keys are already starting to go. :(
Big difference: I can rest my finger on a fn key while looking at the screen, and not need to look down before pressing it. Not possible with the current implementation of touch screens / bars.
The biggest thing I miss about tactile keyboards (on a phone, anyway) is the no-look interaction without necessitating input. Maybe tactile navigation is the term. RIP HTC Tilt2.
The biggest thing I miss about tactile keyboards (on a phone, anyway) is the no-look interaction without necessitating input. Maybe tactile navigation is the term. RIP HTC Tilt2.
Outside of Apple world of "aesthetics over usability", Function keys are grouped spacing so you can easily find the one you need by touch. Ironically, Apple's TouchBar is less touch-friendly than a traditional keyboard.
https://www.google.com/search?q=keyboard&tbm=isch
https://www.google.com/search?q=keyboard&tbm=isch
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Literally everything you've cited as a QoL improvement exist on most (if not all) laptops with physical F-keys.
Physical keys, period. People seem to not know that keyboard shortcuts have existed "forever" because they're faster than mousing about-- no need to look where you're pointing, or where to target on a touchscreen that lacks tactile feedback. They come with "muscle memory" and they don't change position based on context.
Learn keyboard shortcuts, and no one needs a touch bar.
Learn keyboard shortcuts, and no one needs a touch bar.
Conversely, have a touch bar, and no one needs to learn keyboard shortcuts.
The touch bar works best for things accessed sufficiently infrequently that muscle memory won't be a thing.
The touch bar works best for things accessed sufficiently infrequently that muscle memory won't be a thing.
If the touchbar works best for infrequently used actions then is it worth it to use so much of valuable keyboard real estate and sacrifice tactile feedback for infrequently used actions?
I think the touchbar is a cool idea and I loved that Apple explored it innovated. But I also think that ultimately it's not a good idea and good design. Particularly for the power users.
I think the touchbar is a cool idea and I loved that Apple explored it innovated. But I also think that ultimately it's not a good idea and good design. Particularly for the power users.
Those who use FCP, Logic X would beg to differ. It depends on use case, but not every power user is the same. Watch the video, look at their marketing, they're showing you who they think their pros are.
Are these industry pros just not talking about it? coz every review by any kind of pro i see on youtube talks about how worthless teh touch bar is as a con against a macbook
Then it has very limited value relative to its costs, one being function keys...
I live on the keyboard using vim/spacemacs, yet I almost never use the function keys. It's kinda annoying when I have to work with ncurses apps that insists on function keys (I am looking at you, htop).
Then again, I hardly ever use the touchbar either.
I tried to give this a good go. I remembered when I was the young kid thinking about all those old fogies who could not adapt to changing technologies, and now, I am the one yelling "get off the lawn!"
Then again, I hardly ever use the touchbar either.
I tried to give this a good go. I remembered when I was the young kid thinking about all those old fogies who could not adapt to changing technologies, and now, I am the one yelling "get off the lawn!"
I never meant to imply they didn’t, but I never really used them because they weren’t very discoverable. With the Touch Bar I can tell just by looking at the “keys” what they do, whereas with fn-keys all I see is F1, F2, Fn... none of those tell me anything.
I can find out, sure, but my experience tells me I won’t, so for me the Touch bar is a win, simply from a discoverability standpoint.
I can find out, sure, but my experience tells me I won’t, so for me the Touch bar is a win, simply from a discoverability standpoint.
My 2016 MBP has icon labels for each function you listed right on the F-key, except step debugging. Totally discoverable, just by looking, the exact same as the Touchbar. Those same icons have been in the same spot for the three other MBP's I've owned dating back to 2008.
I respect your opinion, but all of the examples you gave are already possible with Fn-keys.
I think what the touchbar brings is always active tutorial/reminder as to what's possible with the touchbar. Due to it's very nature you don't have to be taught what's on there, you can see, you then don't have to remember/rely on building up muscle memory.
I imagine it sucks for accessibility. I'd still want one before my faculties faulter, I imagine I'd get some use out of it with my IDE.
I think what the touchbar brings is always active tutorial/reminder as to what's possible with the touchbar. Due to it's very nature you don't have to be taught what's on there, you can see, you then don't have to remember/rely on building up muscle memory.
I imagine it sucks for accessibility. I'd still want one before my faculties faulter, I imagine I'd get some use out of it with my IDE.
Most computer users aren’t hardcore users. Of course not scientific, but I know a lot of users that are intimidated by strange FN keys and are glad the touchbar clearly labels the current function of the virtual keys. We as HN crowd and hardcore freaks need to accept that no major hardware company can survive by delevoping for us niche users.
You're right, but it's not just hardware.
I was part of the spell correction team at Google, and we made sure that we aren't overly aggressive even though lots of people mistype their web query.
Nowdays I find it much harder to research rare things on Google, and I have to undo the automatic correction that the spell corrector does all the time (which is OK as long as it's easy to undo).
I was part of the spell correction team at Google, and we made sure that we aren't overly aggressive even though lots of people mistype their web query.
Nowdays I find it much harder to research rare things on Google, and I have to undo the automatic correction that the spell corrector does all the time (which is OK as long as it's easy to undo).
I've always preferred the results page corrections for spelling.
I'm more ok with the extra step, if it's my fault for misspelling.
Less so if I have to take an extra step to correct Google's inaccurate "correction."
I'm more ok with the extra step, if it's my fault for misspelling.
Less so if I have to take an extra step to correct Google's inaccurate "correction."
A question for you, given your expertise: why do most (all?) spell checking/correcting not take into account key locality (is, neighboring key accidentally pressed). A big one for me is hitting n or b instead of space. I think it has gotten better recently, but has a loooong way to go. Just curious on your thoughts. Cheers!
Swiftkey does.
It was there from the first iteration of spelling a long time ago (the first iteration was just looking at misspelling frequencies, second iteration 12 years ago moved to understanding multiple spelling mistakes/mistypes)
If you see these kind of easy-to-correct mistakes, it probably means that the spell corrector wasn't given that big attention in the past 10 years.
If you see these kind of easy-to-correct mistakes, it probably means that the spell corrector wasn't given that big attention in the past 10 years.
I just realized that you wrote space....that’s harder as the spell corrector works on words separately :(
I was working on URL corrections part that didn’t need to use segmentation, so I don’t know the details though.
I was working on URL corrections part that didn’t need to use segmentation, so I don’t know the details though.
https://www.boxx.com/ https://system76.com/ These companies are doing fine. There are more like them. Unless you are saying they are not major hardware companies?
Not OP, but I had never heard of them before.
While we are trading anecdotes, my extremely-non-technical girlfriend returned her Macbook in part because of the touch bar; the other part was the terrible keyboard.
In any case, it is very non-obvious that removing the function keys used by power user and non-power user alike (often for work) is necessary for the survival of the company.
It is also very non-obvious why the function keys had to be removed for a touchbar to be added to an already relatively expensive piece of hardware. The touch-bar/function keys are already non-reachable from the home row for most people; so what's another row? I think this was a design-oriented decision, not a regular-user-centric one.
In any case, it is very non-obvious that removing the function keys used by power user and non-power user alike (often for work) is necessary for the survival of the company.
It is also very non-obvious why the function keys had to be removed for a touchbar to be added to an already relatively expensive piece of hardware. The touch-bar/function keys are already non-reachable from the home row for most people; so what's another row? I think this was a design-oriented decision, not a regular-user-centric one.
Most computer users are not hardcore users, but I would think most users of a computer which costs $2400-6100 are.
The touchbar is basically the 2010s equivalent of old-school function key overlays: http://www.hamstuff.com/Overlays/overlay.htm
It does also provide some useful feedback as it can display things, too.
It does also provide some useful feedback as it can display things, too.
It's also continuous.
I buy what people say that it's way better for scrubbing video/audio if you do that a lot (lots of people previously bought special-purpose accessories for the same)... and mostly worse otherwise.
I buy what people say that it's way better for scrubbing video/audio if you do that a lot (lots of people previously bought special-purpose accessories for the same)... and mostly worse otherwise.
Maybe not true for 2019 version but previous versions have had a serious issue with the touchbar just hanging/becoming unresponsive - requiring a reboot to fix the issue.
I find this similar to software key vs hardware keys for android phones. Hardware keys are more reliable and do not disappear of move under you, but with software keys you can add contextual options as is used to add a "change keyboard" key in the bottom right when on a textbox.
Essentially a partial fusion of the two things would be physical keys with screens on top for dynamical renaming. but that would have its own problems.
Essentially a partial fusion of the two things would be physical keys with screens on top for dynamical renaming. but that would have its own problems.
One big difference is that using Fn-keys requires me to remember which key does what. They also provide no visual feedback on what state I'm currently in. For example, I may have a Fn-key that works as stop/start, but unless I already know what's going on, I don't know what impact pressing the key will have.
> I may have a Fn-key that works as stop/start, but unless I already know what's going on, I don't know what impact pressing the key will have.
Someone in a related thread said the app-specific keys are only available when the app has focus, so wouldn't you have the status of the app in front of you anyway?
In any case, I found the statement funny, because touch is flakey for me, so I never know what impact pressing a touch key will have.
Someone in a related thread said the app-specific keys are only available when the app has focus, so wouldn't you have the status of the app in front of you anyway?
In any case, I found the statement funny, because touch is flakey for me, so I never know what impact pressing a touch key will have.
Since I rarely look down at the keyboard, I would have those visual notifications up on the screen anyway.
And as TouchBar is a per app custom display, you'd have to look down at your keyboard to see the current status... of anything.
And as TouchBar is a per app custom display, you'd have to look down at your keyboard to see the current status... of anything.
The Touch Bar is only on their notebooks, "looking down" is like a half inch away from the screen you're already looking at.
...which is looking down at the keyboard.
It’s half an inch away from the bottom edge of the screen, but a considerably longer distance away from the things a person usually looks at when working.
It’s half an inch away from the bottom edge of the screen, but a considerably longer distance away from the things a person usually looks at when working.
Re: things that aren’t possible with Fn-keys:
Making scrubbers for audio/video (more) physical is nice, since scrubbing video with a mouse usually requires that you first move the mouse to wherever the video player puts its scrubber, and scrubbing with the keyboard usually requires multi-key combos and always has the “wrong” granularity. (It’s also helpful in that you can now combine this scrubbing in a gesture with mouse movement, e.g. picking up a clip from your library in iMovie, scrubbing through the timeline to scroll it to the right position, and then moving the mouse over to the timeline and dropping it. That’s basically an impossible gesture with mouse-movements alone; you’re left to hover the clip over the scroll-edge of the timeline and wait for it to accelerate its scrolling [and then usually overshoot].)
Come to think of it, Sublime Text and other IDEs with a minimap could display it (rotated to horizontal) on the touch-bar, and let you scrub on it, too. Do they?
Making scrubbers for audio/video (more) physical is nice, since scrubbing video with a mouse usually requires that you first move the mouse to wherever the video player puts its scrubber, and scrubbing with the keyboard usually requires multi-key combos and always has the “wrong” granularity. (It’s also helpful in that you can now combine this scrubbing in a gesture with mouse movement, e.g. picking up a clip from your library in iMovie, scrubbing through the timeline to scroll it to the right position, and then moving the mouse over to the timeline and dropping it. That’s basically an impossible gesture with mouse-movements alone; you’re left to hover the clip over the scroll-edge of the timeline and wait for it to accelerate its scrolling [and then usually overshoot].)
Come to think of it, Sublime Text and other IDEs with a minimap could display it (rotated to horizontal) on the touch-bar, and let you scrub on it, too. Do they?
When I first got a touchbar Mac I was really excited about video scrubbing, but in practice it's been useless to me. If it was a virtual scrubber wheel (like the old mouse-based Final Cut scrubbers) it would have been great, but with the current "scrollbar" type implementation, the precision is so bad that it's always been totally useless for me.
The basic VLC two-finger scroll scrubbing works way better.
The basic VLC two-finger scroll scrubbing works way better.
I've found the touchbar to be useful for only two things: 1) It's decent for things like volume control that need an analog slider, and 2) To give Pock a placed to live, so that there's actually some slightly above caveman task management on the Mac. There's NOTHING that the touchbar can do, though, that a real touchscreen can't do better. This entire stupid feature exists simply because Apple refuses to admit that touch screens are really useful - something you'd think they'd know after iPhones and iPads, but I heard an Apple employee making the ridiculously disproven"gorilla arm" claim as recently as last year. Apple just refuses to do what customers clearly want - the voice of Steve Jobs still controls them from the grave...
You’re right, and I wasn’t very clear with my comment which is unfortunate. I never meant to imply that any of those things were impossible with fn-keys, just that they weren’t very discoverable. The Touch Bar shows me what features are available at any given time, fn-keys don’t. Sure I could go hunting for the relevant docs, maybe I’d even learn a few key combinations along the way, but my experience tells me I won’t. Other people might, but I never much cared for the fn-keys for this very reason – I never knew quite what they did in what contexts, and didn’t care enough to find out.
So for me, the Touch Bar makes these contextual commands discoverable, and that’s worth more than the tactility of physical keys. Doesn’t matter if I can touch without looking, if I don’t know what the keys do. Besides, after a couple of years with the Touch Bar I feel like muscle memory seems to work about the same anyway, I never have to look for the mute button in Zoom for instance, I know where it is.
Thanks for challenging my comment, prompting me to (hopefully) clarify!
So for me, the Touch Bar makes these contextual commands discoverable, and that’s worth more than the tactility of physical keys. Doesn’t matter if I can touch without looking, if I don’t know what the keys do. Besides, after a couple of years with the Touch Bar I feel like muscle memory seems to work about the same anyway, I never have to look for the mute button in Zoom for instance, I know where it is.
Thanks for challenging my comment, prompting me to (hopefully) clarify!
:-)
I do have touchbar envy! I tend not to look at my keyboard too much on desktop, but when on a laptop it's definitely in my peripheral vision and would hopefully encourage me to learn it's shortcuts. There's a lot of UX work involved to make it all work perfectly though. App's especially, shouldn't just use the touchbar, they should make it easier with visual in app reminders about what's down there. They should do this with the standard FN-keys too for us non-touchbar folk. I'm a big fan of having keyboard shortcuts shown on screen UI's.
There's no denying it can do more in than Fn-keys.
I do have touchbar envy! I tend not to look at my keyboard too much on desktop, but when on a laptop it's definitely in my peripheral vision and would hopefully encourage me to learn it's shortcuts. There's a lot of UX work involved to make it all work perfectly though. App's especially, shouldn't just use the touchbar, they should make it easier with visual in app reminders about what's down there. They should do this with the standard FN-keys too for us non-touchbar folk. I'm a big fan of having keyboard shortcuts shown on screen UI's.
There's no denying it can do more in than Fn-keys.
i remap capslock to escape regardless of the make/model of laptop i use, so the lack of a physical escape key didn’t really effect me.
i never type with capslock on, and find using it for escape helps my vim workflow
i never type with capslock on, and find using it for escape helps my vim workflow
This is clever! Thanks for the tip
That does make me wonder: why the hell is the capslock button so big? Seems like a huge waste of space.
(Edit: In case anyone else is wondering the same things, the main answers seem to be (1) on manual typewriters, both the shift and capslock needed to physically lift the entire carriage, and so required more force and was for some users a two-finger operation; and (2) all the buttons on the sides of the letters simply fill space to the edges, if we shorten the capslock, we'd need to put something else there or we'd move the A.)
(Edit: In case anyone else is wondering the same things, the main answers seem to be (1) on manual typewriters, both the shift and capslock needed to physically lift the entire carriage, and so required more force and was for some users a two-finger operation; and (2) all the buttons on the sides of the letters simply fill space to the edges, if we shorten the capslock, we'd need to put something else there or we'd move the A.)
I started doing this because of the touchbar. Now I like this key mapping better, but I still hate the touchbar.
I tried that too. I am getting mixed results. I have to change the way my hands and fingers move, being so used to moving the whole hand as a signal to say, "esc". I am a very tactile/kinosthetic learning, so changing the sequence my body has to move in space can really mess things up for me,
It is not working well: the very limited travel on the keys is not giving my fingers the feedback that I actually hit the "esc" key (capslock). It introduces errors.
I'd probably have to live with this laptop for a while though. I don't think the startup I work for is going to buy a new MBP for me anytime soon.
Being able to go to 32 GB will be nice though. Up until this 2019 MBP, I had seriously looked into switching back to a Linux laptop.
It is not working well: the very limited travel on the keys is not giving my fingers the feedback that I actually hit the "esc" key (capslock). It introduces errors.
I'd probably have to live with this laptop for a while though. I don't think the startup I work for is going to buy a new MBP for me anytime soon.
Being able to go to 32 GB will be nice though. Up until this 2019 MBP, I had seriously looked into switching back to a Linux laptop.
The 2018 MBP could be configured to 32GB. (It could not be configured to have scissor-switch keyboard of course)
Yeah, it was a bummer it took so long. I started using remote AWS instances to do all of my work because my 8 GB 2015 MBP just could not keep up ... with Slack, Zoom, Chrome, and running Rails. Let alone the VM, running a local version of Kubernetes ...
Nowadays that I am working with Elixir, multi-core is much more appreciated :-D
Nowadays that I am working with Elixir, multi-core is much more appreciated :-D
No haptic feedback. I am a hunt-and-peck typist, and there is nothing more frustrating than
1) opening a web page to the user manual;
2) starting a build;
3) closing a dialog box;
4) mistakenly completing a word I am typing;
all because my ring or middle finger brushed the touch bar.
It's a solution looking for a problem. It's garbage.
It's a solution looking for a problem. It's garbage.
FWIW HapticKey adds feedback when you press touch bar keys: https://github.com/niw/HapticKey
> It turns out app makers have found some nifty uses for it, like the ability to quickly mute/unmute when in conference calls, quickly changing volume/brightness, stepping through code while debugging etc etc.
Maybe I've just had a limited, poor experience with it, but from the apps I've used these functions are only available on the touchbar when the app is focused... which has the controls anyway.
I was using Skype for Business and it had the audio controls in the touch bar, and also on the screen about 1.5" inches above the touchbar. I wanted to mute and unmute when I had the app in the background, but I couldn't. Useless.
Maybe I've just had a limited, poor experience with it, but from the apps I've used these functions are only available on the touchbar when the app is focused... which has the controls anyway.
I was using Skype for Business and it had the audio controls in the touch bar, and also on the screen about 1.5" inches above the touchbar. I wanted to mute and unmute when I had the app in the background, but I couldn't. Useless.
This is interesting. I don't have a touchbar model (yet) so I'm unfamiliar with the API. But it seems to me like the best way to utilize it would be to allow the user to reserve some fraction of it for global shortcuts/controls/macros, and the rest for the in focus app.
Or how about a modifier key (e.g. Cmd/Super) to make the Touch Bar display global hotkeys rather than local hotkeys? I think it already somewhat does this. But it could also display any applicable Services, which (through making Services in Automator) would cover the macro use-case.
The right-hand side of the Touch Bar is already the "control strip", which is systemwide, and it has a < at the left of the control strip that expands it to the whole Touch Bar. You can even set that to be the default if you don't like the context-specific softkeys and just want the systemwide ones.
...but you cant do that with a regular keyboard, nor phone, nor other OS. How would it know if the app is non focused which app you're commanding without taking more processing power for independent 'quick keys',and from all the new electron apps we already know how efficient they are with memory usage.
Precisely. So what does the touch bar add, if not new capability?
So now I have a touchbar that I can't do anything with that I couldn't already do before it.
So now I have a touchbar that I can't do anything with that I couldn't already do before it.
Well having shortcuts to stuff that you don't want to have to trackpad up to and click every time, or remember keyboard chords for. Same purpose as function keys, but without the memorization necessary to use them.
So it's a minor ergonomic improvement, at best. Hardly anything to write home about. When it launched it was marketed as something revolutionary.
To the context it was used. Apple apps take full advantage of the touchbar. Adobe is finally doing the same. Not all pros are the same and you can turn off its override features in the system preferences. Not all revolutions are immediate.
I laughed when they showed the music professional using the touchbar to scrub through audio/video. like any pro is using anything less than a whole another macro keyboard to handle that issue
paulie_a(1)
Each to their own, but I've set mine to always and only display the brightness and volume knobs, and I still find it significantly slower to adjust those, than on my old mbp.
But in all fairness, the F-keys on a mac never really worked like function keys, they've always been more of a row of OSX-keys. I can understand why Apple felt a need to innovate that space, but I am not impressed.
But in all fairness, the F-keys on a mac never really worked like function keys, they've always been more of a row of OSX-keys. I can understand why Apple felt a need to innovate that space, but I am not impressed.
You know, if you buy a Surface Pro or Surface Book (or most any other Windows portable), THE WHOLE SCREEN IS TOUCHABLE! The touchbar is the biggest UI/UX screwup since the one button mouse and Jobs' insistence that there be only one menubar - a decision we still suffer from today that was driven by the original Mac's laughable 9-inch 512x342 pixel screen! BTW - You people are seriously acting like an Esc key is an innovation? I'm still waiting for a real delete key... and Home/End, PgUp/PgDn, etc....
I'm interested in why you think only one menu bar is a bad thing. In my experience it makes it easy to use. On Windows, a menu bar is maybe 20-50 pixels high, and you have to hit that small target to use the menu bar. On Mac, because the menu bar is at the top of the screen, it has effectively infinite height, and I can get my mouse into it with a quick and imprecise motion, which is ideal.
I might have to eat crow on this, but I can't imagine Apple holding out the Esc as a 16" power upgrade. It doesn't require extra motherboard or fan space.
It wasn't until I got a touchbar that I realized the only function key I ever consistently used was F5 for refreshing pages. Even the few I needed in my IDE for 3-4 button hotkeys are replaced with a single button that does what I want. The touch bar is great, and I really don't understand why people cling to function keys so much
I may be in the minorty and like the touch bar.
Intellij, Outlook and Apple's own programs integrate it very well.
Phyisical keys are great but 12 buttons labelled F1 to F12 with different functions depending on the program also isn't he pinnacle of UX.
Intellij, Outlook and Apple's own programs integrate it very well.
Phyisical keys are great but 12 buttons labelled F1 to F12 with different functions depending on the program also isn't he pinnacle of UX.
I also like the Touch Bar and I think this..
>Phyisical keys are great but 12 buttons labelled F1 to F12 with different functions depending on the program also isn't he pinnacle of UX
x1000. Function keys have almost always been useless to me. Once in a while I will remember what one is mapped to and use it, but for the most part they go unused.
>Phyisical keys are great but 12 buttons labelled F1 to F12 with different functions depending on the program also isn't he pinnacle of UX
x1000. Function keys have almost always been useless to me. Once in a while I will remember what one is mapped to and use it, but for the most part they go unused.
They used to make cardboard guides that could sit on top of the older ibm keyboards when most of the world used one... I don’t know that you can replace the feel but some haptic taps or something might improve the touch bar. I generally like it bur on it and my older MBPs I pretty much used escape and volume and screen brightness settings and otherwise never used that row. Since laptops, the f-keys simply aren’t what they used to be, it’s not unusual for them to be overloaded or even require a shift like key to be pressed for f-key behavior.
I can see this in a small number of situations, but how many developers use the laptop's screen and keyboard for coding?
Pretty much everyone I know and every workplace I've seen has proper monitors and keyboards for everyone (developers included). A laptop has terrible ergonomics. That makes the touchbar a bit pointless, except when working on a train or plane, or at a meeting or conference.
Pretty much everyone I know and every workplace I've seen has proper monitors and keyboards for everyone (developers included). A laptop has terrible ergonomics. That makes the touchbar a bit pointless, except when working on a train or plane, or at a meeting or conference.
I'm probably an outlier, but I use the laptop's screen and keyboard most of the time. My normal environment is in a La-Z-Boy in front of the TV with a lap desk. It's quite nice.
I have a computer room / office as well that's a really nice setup, but I prefer sitting in the recliner.
I have a computer room / office as well that's a really nice setup, but I prefer sitting in the recliner.
I'd assume you'd be right, but anecdotally I am really surprised walking around my office how many people have their MacBook Pros connected to an external monitor -- and have the MBP open, typing on the internal keyboard and using the internal display as a second monitor. I've seen more than one person with two external monitors and still do that, so they have three monitors total. I don't know, to be fair, how many of them are actually using the Touch Bar; most folks use Visual Code, which I don't think does anything with it. (I am a technical writer still using BBEdit for reasons I should eventually write a dorky blog post about, but BBEdit doesn't use the Touch Bar, either.) Personally, I think it's a really neat experiment that turned out to be a solution in search of a problem.
(For what it's worth, I have one external monitor at work and run my MBP closed, with an external keyboard -- up until last week a Matias "Laptop Pro" mechanical, but ironically, the Matias developed a seriously malfunctioning key before the butterfly keyboard did. Currently I'm using a "full-sized" Magic keyboard there.)
(For what it's worth, I have one external monitor at work and run my MBP closed, with an external keyboard -- up until last week a Matias "Laptop Pro" mechanical, but ironically, the Matias developed a seriously malfunctioning key before the butterfly keyboard did. Currently I'm using a "full-sized" Magic keyboard there.)
I say both of those things. Although about thinkpads, not Dells.
I don't understand why they don't let users remap Fn keys in System Preferences. That will pretty much replace 90% of Touch Bar use cases.
It depends on what you mean by "remap," maybe? The Shortcuts tab in Keyboard preferences lets you add/change keyboard shortcuts for a tremendous number of things, including every menu item in every application. (And of course if you were willing to go third party you could investigate something like Keyboard Maestro.)
I wouldn't buy a Dell XPS, but I would probably buy a Gigabyte Aero with a touchbar.
I'd say it. I use the touchbar and like it, and have been touch typing since the late 80s. Can't say why, as a touch typist, I like it, though. I just do.
A touchbar above the function keys would have been a radical improvement if it helped explain what the Fn keys did. Or leds in the keys that allowed them to show icons for what they did.
If I wanted a super-sexy fn experience, I'd have function keys with leds for changeable icons, and a bigger touchbar above it for app-specific bling.
And I'd drop the size of the touchpad. That thing is too big, the retina one was more than adequate.
And there's no option to get legacy ports, but it's Apple, ports are a religious jihad not a customer convenience.\.
If I wanted a super-sexy fn experience, I'd have function keys with leds for changeable icons, and a bigger touchbar above it for app-specific bling.
And I'd drop the size of the touchpad. That thing is too big, the retina one was more than adequate.
And there's no option to get legacy ports, but it's Apple, ports are a religious jihad not a customer convenience.\.
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“Our pro customers tell us they want their next MacBook Pro to have a larger display, blazing-fast performance, the biggest battery possible, the best notebook keyboard ever, awesome speakers and massive amounts of storage"
things every pro user said, since the invention of laptops, for every brand.
things every pro user said, since the invention of laptops, for every brand.
Once you install https://pock.dev, the touchbar is useful
In my opinion, TouchBar is worth it for several reasons: 1) start and stop screensharing in Zoom, 2) quickly end Zoom calls, 3) autofill on web forms.
So... if I don't use Zoom I have one reason? Maybe? 1 and 2 are essentially the same reason anyway (Zoom integration) and I lost my function keys for it.
I have a TouchBar MacBook and I was pretty peeved about the escape key at first, but once I remapped the caps lock key to escape I never looked back. The caps lock key is worthless anyway.
That said, the only cool use for the TouchBar that I've noted is with iTerm2. Changing terminal colors on the fly from the TouchBar is actually kinda nifty.
That said, the only cool use for the TouchBar that I've noted is with iTerm2. Changing terminal colors on the fly from the TouchBar is actually kinda nifty.
The Caps Lock key is reserved to be remapped as Ctrl in many people's setups.
I am actually using CapsLock for typing capital letters. I learned it that way when I first got computer and it stick with me. Plus it's much easier to write capital, accent letters from my language because I don't have to hold two modifiers (Shift+Alt), just one.
Still has the touchbar.
“Hey Siri, wake me up next year.”
“Hey Siri, wake me up next year.”
I didn't have a touchbar but wouldn't the escape key have been the easiest non-physical key to reach without looking, due to its indexed location? Or was the problem that it wasn't always exposed by the software?
I was constantly bringing up the help view in Vim by hitting F1 instead of Esc. Decades of muscle memory wouldn't allow me to actually use Caps Lock remapped as ecape.
OMG, I'm very depressed as a user who loves the butterfly mechanism. I hate the wobbly feeling that the scissor mechanism produces. Apple didn't need to return to the scissor mechanism, it should have reiterated the design. I'm very disappointed that Apple just gave up & used the safe way of regressing back.
It feels like Apple is losing the spirit of doing things itself, whether other people dislikes it. Apple is more and more becoming a usual company that just does what consumers demands. And I'm sad with that.
It feels like Apple is losing the spirit of doing things itself, whether other people dislikes it. Apple is more and more becoming a usual company that just does what consumers demands. And I'm sad with that.
“And they didn’t throw away the good parts of the butterfly keyboard — including excellent backlighting and especially the increased stability, where keys go down flat even when pressed off-center. The keys on this keyboard don’t wobble like the keys on pre-2016 MacBook Pro keyboards do.” — https://daringfireball.net/2019/11/16-inch_macbook_pro_first...
Wow, that's pretty great! I'm not sure I'll change my mind until I actually touch them, but that's pretty great, kind of removes my stereotypes of scissor keyboards.
The Butterfly mechanism was tainted by a number of design flaws that forced Apple to provide a soft recall:
https://support.apple.com/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-n...
I'm literally getting my new Macbook serviced today due to sticky butterfly keys.
All they really had to do was find a way to make the keys more easily removable. The butterfly mechanism is really nice when it works, but when a single key can stick and there is no easy way to clean / replace it so you have to replace the entire cop case which is insane.
Sounds so simple.
And you are correct. Just got back from the Genius Bar, they have to replace the entire top case because the R key tends to stick or misfire. 2 week repair because they don't have the parts. Sounds like an expensive repair for a single key.
The person sitting next to me had the exact same issue (but different keys)!
And you are correct. Just got back from the Genius Bar, they have to replace the entire top case because the R key tends to stick or misfire. 2 week repair because they don't have the parts. Sounds like an expensive repair for a single key.
The person sitting next to me had the exact same issue (but different keys)!
I would pay $1000 extra for no Touch Bar.
Go from 16GB to 32GB of RAM and 1TB to 2TB and you have over $800 in upgrades.
I put 16GB in my 2013 Mac Book Pro. The extra RAM is key to getting a few more years of use.
An external SSD would be fine but Mac laptops never have enough ports.
I put 16GB in my 2013 Mac Book Pro. The extra RAM is key to getting a few more years of use.
An external SSD would be fine but Mac laptops never have enough ports.
A co-worker is really impressed with all the improvements, but they seem to mostly be improvements over previous poor ideas from Apple, that other brands already had or never abandoned.
I admit, a 16" screen in a 15" body sounds really nice. But most of this is stuff other brands already had.
I admit, a 16" screen in a 15" body sounds really nice. But most of this is stuff other brands already had.
The other brands don't have macOS. Running a Mac isn't just hardware.
People were annoyed because they don't want to run a different OS. Yes, you could get cheaper/powerful hardware somewhere else... but it's not macOS. Hackintoshes need not apply here.
People were annoyed because they don't want to run a different OS. Yes, you could get cheaper/powerful hardware somewhere else... but it's not macOS. Hackintoshes need not apply here.
> Yes, you could get cheaper/powerful hardware somewhere else...
would you agree with this change to your description?:
"Yes, you could get [better] hardware somewhere else..."
would you agree with this change to your description?:
"Yes, you could get [better] hardware somewhere else..."
Not really, "better" hardware is subjective in a laptop. For all the complaining people do, Apple is very good about ensuring that the hardware in their machines works as expected and hits a solid baseline performance level for given tasks.
Except for the keyboard fiasco, obviously
Anecdotes ≠ fact
When something rises to the level of a recall, especially for Apple (who denied that logic board issues were an issue on two separate models of MBP for me for months before issuing recalls), it rises a bit beyond "anecdote".
I may have not been verbose in the first post, but it was intended to be less about the technical and more about how there's this weird demand culture just because we know a couple people who have a similar issue.
Slightly larger anecdata then: I have a group chat with some friends where we were discussing the 16" MBP announcement this morning. One computer out of six has (so far) gotten by with a reliably performing keyboard.
Some of the others haven't gotten bad enough to deal with shipping them off for repair, but that doesn't mean they're working acceptably.
But I'll concede it's possible that this all a coincidence and we're a very unlucky sample. There's probably not a good source of hard numbers, since Apple only know about the ones who were able to deal with getting it repaired. I read that they're trying to do next-day turnaround for in-store keyboard replacements now, but not all of us live anywhere near an Apple Store.
For another point of reference, a poll from Basecamp: https://m.signalvnoise.com/the-macbook-keyboard-fiasco-is-su...
Specifically take note of the 2018 numbers. 6 of 13 keyboards having problem, and if every single one of those was purchased the day the 2018 model was released, they're a maximum of 10 months old when the poll was taken. Many of them are likely newer than that. 6 out of 13 in less than a year. Even if there's a biased sample in who responded to this, that's a lot of bad keyboards.
Anyway, I’m glad to see a new keyboard design, and if I seem salty about it that’s because I’m personally annoyed at my 2016’s keyboard and all Apple can do about it is replace it with another of the same keyboard that will probably fail in the same way again.
EDIT - corrected my group figures. One person has a working keyboard. And for what it's worth, another person who works in IT hasn't seen an overwhelming failure rate in their office (knock on wood, he notes). But most them are using external keyboards for data entry (with numpads), so the internal keys aren’t used heavily.
His own MBP is counted among the failed ones though.
Some of the others haven't gotten bad enough to deal with shipping them off for repair, but that doesn't mean they're working acceptably.
But I'll concede it's possible that this all a coincidence and we're a very unlucky sample. There's probably not a good source of hard numbers, since Apple only know about the ones who were able to deal with getting it repaired. I read that they're trying to do next-day turnaround for in-store keyboard replacements now, but not all of us live anywhere near an Apple Store.
For another point of reference, a poll from Basecamp: https://m.signalvnoise.com/the-macbook-keyboard-fiasco-is-su...
Specifically take note of the 2018 numbers. 6 of 13 keyboards having problem, and if every single one of those was purchased the day the 2018 model was released, they're a maximum of 10 months old when the poll was taken. Many of them are likely newer than that. 6 out of 13 in less than a year. Even if there's a biased sample in who responded to this, that's a lot of bad keyboards.
Anyway, I’m glad to see a new keyboard design, and if I seem salty about it that’s because I’m personally annoyed at my 2016’s keyboard and all Apple can do about it is replace it with another of the same keyboard that will probably fail in the same way again.
EDIT - corrected my group figures. One person has a working keyboard. And for what it's worth, another person who works in IT hasn't seen an overwhelming failure rate in their office (knock on wood, he notes). But most them are using external keyboards for data entry (with numpads), so the internal keys aren’t used heavily.
His own MBP is counted among the failed ones though.
The butterfly keyboard had design flaws. This is a well known and well documented fact. There is literally an Apple keyboard repair program for the butterfly keyboard, and this new MacBook pro uses a different keyboard design altogether.
I wouldn't. Maybe on pure specs, yes. But there is just no substitute for me for the trackpads Apple builds into their laptops. And the overall quality and longevity of the devices. I've only bought/got a new Apple device because I could, never because I had to (ie: it was broken/unusable).
My old Macbook Pro from 2011 just broke. But that's certainly a respectable lifespan. I never replaced it because no new Macbook excited me like that one: they were increasingly hard to maintain, glued components, no 17 inch screen anymore, and keyboards kept getting worse.
When it finally broke down, I got a Thinkpad.
This new 16" Macbook would be the first in years that I'd consider, but it's just a couple of months too late. I found my replacement.
When it finally broke down, I got a Thinkpad.
This new 16" Macbook would be the first in years that I'd consider, but it's just a couple of months too late. I found my replacement.
I was afraid of having to go that path when Apple would continue with their direction in pro hardware. I was only allowed to use a Linux laptop (Dell) in my previous job and even with how customizable Linux is I just could never get comfortable with it.
" I've only bought/got a new Apple device because I could, never because I had to (ie: it was broken/unusable)."
Same case for me but desktops and laptops are Windows based. Laptops: very old Toshiba which was super nice at the time. After that gaming laptops from Asus and HP. All desktops are built to order from the components I chose.
Hardware problems during last 20 years:
3 hard drives had died (one on desktop, 2 on servers). Does not mean of course that I use the same one for 20 years. Keep upgrading them every once in a while as the amount of stuff I have to keep grows.
1 Video card from nVidia died.
1 Desktop began crashing. Further investigation revealed that thermal paste deteriorated completely and the CPU would shutdown after a very short while. Put new thermal paste and all works again like a charm.
Other then that I kept upgrading things but now it does not happen so often as the hardware became generally good enough for just about anything. Well I am sort of looking at that new 32 Core AMD for server when it comes out.
Same case for me but desktops and laptops are Windows based. Laptops: very old Toshiba which was super nice at the time. After that gaming laptops from Asus and HP. All desktops are built to order from the components I chose.
Hardware problems during last 20 years:
3 hard drives had died (one on desktop, 2 on servers). Does not mean of course that I use the same one for 20 years. Keep upgrading them every once in a while as the amount of stuff I have to keep grows.
1 Video card from nVidia died.
1 Desktop began crashing. Further investigation revealed that thermal paste deteriorated completely and the CPU would shutdown after a very short while. Put new thermal paste and all works again like a charm.
Other then that I kept upgrading things but now it does not happen so often as the hardware became generally good enough for just about anything. Well I am sort of looking at that new 32 Core AMD for server when it comes out.
Not only on pure specs. By any measure you'd like. Apple device have some of the worst build quality of the industry. Watch a guy that repairs them daily list the issues for you. I'd challenge you to show a similar list of huge design flaws of any other manufacturer.
https://youtu.be/AUaJ8pDlxi8
If that’s true, I haven’t found it when I’ve shopped for a laptop to install Linux onto. This wasn’t always the case, but right around the time of Windows 8 when everything needed a touchscreen and chromebooks were eating the low end of the market, good affordable hardware seemingly disappeared. I would have to spend $1500 to get something in the same ballpark as an entry level MacBook and it would still have profoundly terrible touchpad (whether running Linux or Windows, it never mattered), a mediocre keyboard, a plastic body, and noisy fans.
Chromebooks do offer better hardware per dollar than other computers, but you are (or perhaps were) pretty locked-into the ChromeOS, or at least none of the workarounds seemed palatable. So if you like ChromeOS then there is better value hardware out there, but Mac is it for the rest of us.
Chromebooks do offer better hardware per dollar than other computers, but you are (or perhaps were) pretty locked-into the ChromeOS, or at least none of the workarounds seemed palatable. So if you like ChromeOS then there is better value hardware out there, but Mac is it for the rest of us.
There is a lot of competition in the laptop space now. Apple no longer produces hands down the best notebooks in terms of hardware. The touchpad on the new Lenovo/Dell laptops have gotten very very good. Same goes for screen quality.
Good to know. I'll have to check them out. My ~2015 Lenovo touchpad is utterly abysmal.
And that's the big thing that keeps surprising me: that there's no laptop maker that produces high quality laptops with their own custom super nice Linux-based but Mac OS-like OS on it. Everybody seems content saddling their hardware with Windows.
Thing is, Mac OS isn't as great as it used to be either. They used to be brilliant developer laptops, but Apple seems to want everybody in their walled garden.
Thing is, Mac OS isn't as great as it used to be either. They used to be brilliant developer laptops, but Apple seems to want everybody in their walled garden.
> that there's no laptop maker that produces high quality laptops with their own custom super nice Linux-based but Mac OS-like OS on it
That would be System 76 https://system76.com/laptops/adder with their pop OS linux distro https://system76.com/pop
That would be System 76 https://system76.com/laptops/adder with their pop OS linux distro https://system76.com/pop
PopOS is great but I think system76 needs to design their laptops from scratch instead of relabeling Clevo laptops if they’re serious about challenging Apple. Their laptops have the specs, but the fit and finish is just not there.
I have a Clevo laptop (a few years old now) and even at the time, it was not exactly state of the art in terms of weight, battery life, etc. It's proven to be a fairly tough beast (even having fallen off my bike and lived). It is, unlike many new laptops, relatively easy to open up for upgrades and repair. Getting Apple's 'fit and finish' means a closed box.
They are working towards it. Their new server hardware (or mini PC, forget which one) was designed and fabricated in-house.
When I was searching for a new laptop, I stumbled upon this comment from a System76 employee that goes into more depth about the work they do on new laptops that seems more than just relabelling Clevo laptops.
https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/5umefi/system76_refr...
At the end, I went for a Lenovo V330 on sale since I couldn't justify the price of System76 plus shipping outside the US at the time.
Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with System76 in any way and have never owned a System76 laptop.
https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/5umefi/system76_refr...
At the end, I went for a Lenovo V330 on sale since I couldn't justify the price of System76 plus shipping outside the US at the time.
Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with System76 in any way and have never owned a System76 laptop.
I'm thinking about using PopOS on my Thinkpad X1 Extreme, as it's rumoured to be the only Linux that supports hybrid graphics, and it's specifically designed for developers and other creators (which Macbook Pros once seemed to be).
Their hardware, though, seems to be meh. Give me this on some high quality hardware.
Their hardware, though, seems to be meh. Give me this on some high quality hardware.
I dual book my X1 Extreme with Windows 10 and Pop OS and it works about 98%. The trackpad is buggy as hell, auto date/time switch is broken, and a few other minor usability issues endemic to using Linux just drive me crazy.
I've been debating hackintoshing it (https://github.com/Errrneist/Hackintosh-Thinkpad-X1-Extreme) but it seems like eGPU support isn't there and that's one of the primary use cases I got for this laptop (CAD primarily).
I've been debating hackintoshing it (https://github.com/Errrneist/Hackintosh-Thinkpad-X1-Extreme) but it seems like eGPU support isn't there and that's one of the primary use cases I got for this laptop (CAD primarily).
Not until there are accompanying ecosystem apps on par with Logic Pro, Final Cut, etc... I've found with almost every linux distro there's always an area where it falls short.
Yeah, that is still a problem. I couldn't really move completely away from the Mac until I got to a point where I didn't need InDesign anymore. There's no good Linux substitute, even for money. Sadly Adobe has hidden away FrameMaker, which started as a Unix program.
It absolutely depends on which "Pros" your targeting. A software developer obviously has different needs in terms of software than a video editor or UI designer.
I use Windows at work and at university. My private desktop has a dualboot install with Windows and popOS. Works perfectly fine for me
Huawei is / will be doing just that!
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/09/12/huawe...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/09/12/huawe...
The challenge with Linux on the desktop is achieving a seamlessly integrated between drivers, software and hardware. Achieving even parity with OSX is a tall ask and likely extremely challenging, but I'm certainly rooting for them. Trying to install vanilla Windows and Ubuntu the other day on my desktop reminded me how much of a challenge playing the driver hockey game was. I eventually settled on a stable configuration (thank goodness), but it really dawned on me how much more I would have paid for something that worked perfectly out of box and remained working perfectly out of the box. My time is valuable! If I get an OSX laptop, I know I can rely on certain foundational things working without any tweaking which I _could_ do but would really rather avoid.
Thinkpad on mobile system 76 on desktop.
You've got a point! I haven't tried a system 76 yet, but I have nothing but respect for them. To be honest, I wish they'd more aggressively compete for mindshare in the professional market than OSX -- imagine what the world would be like if the default startup/bigco laptop were a system76.
Beyond that, for the desktop at least, I didn't realize how competitive they were on cost -- wow! I'm not sure why, but it looks like I can't configure it in a 4GPU configuration. If I could, while there would be a price premium over what I paid for my devbox, I think it could be worthwhile given the polish.
Beyond that, for the desktop at least, I didn't realize how competitive they were on cost -- wow! I'm not sure why, but it looks like I can't configure it in a 4GPU configuration. If I could, while there would be a price premium over what I paid for my devbox, I think it could be worthwhile given the polish.
There is nothing wrong with Windows.
What surprise me is on the laptop keyboard layout has dedicated Print Screen and Insert keys but no Home and End keys.
What surprise me is on the laptop keyboard layout has dedicated Print Screen and Insert keys but no Home and End keys.
Windows Update makes Windows barely usable. Weekly restarts to update OS at random points in time are unacceptable. There are plenty of other usability issues, for me lack of working Unix-like shell out of the box is one of them.
It's crazy how a billion people and millions of developers are using Windows when it's barely usable. Is there some small possibility that you're wrong about this?
Also, does macOS have a Unix shell that you can just start using for your work out of the box or do you have to use something like Homebrew to bring it up to modern standards first?
Usability is certainly an opinion. I can get a Unix shell on any OS, have been able to for decades. But we don't just want a shell do we? We want a decent desktop environment with a good system for managing application windows... We want updates that don't cause problems. We want a good file browser.
macOS has none of these things, not out of the box and not even with third party utilities to fix things and fill in missing features.
Also, does macOS have a Unix shell that you can just start using for your work out of the box or do you have to use something like Homebrew to bring it up to modern standards first?
Usability is certainly an opinion. I can get a Unix shell on any OS, have been able to for decades. But we don't just want a shell do we? We want a decent desktop environment with a good system for managing application windows... We want updates that don't cause problems. We want a good file browser.
macOS has none of these things, not out of the box and not even with third party utilities to fix things and fill in missing features.
I’m confused about your issues...
The current shell in macOS is zSh and the Mac wrote the book on window management (other than the windows snapping ideas, which, fair, but it is just one app. On the other hand, macOS is like a wonderful land between windows and Linux with ease of use plus all the power features.
The current shell in macOS is zSh and the Mac wrote the book on window management (other than the windows snapping ideas, which, fair, but it is just one app. On the other hand, macOS is like a wonderful land between windows and Linux with ease of use plus all the power features.
> Also, does macOS have a Unix shell that you can just start using for your work out of the box or do you have to use something like Homebrew to bring it up to modern standards first?
I'll take a Mac terminal over any Windows one, every time. Speaking as someone who uses all 3 OS's at work. The hoops I've had to jump through on Windows just to do basic things are maddening. Mac's terminal experience is one of the reasons I keep going back to it. I'm truly confused how one prefers a windows terminal.
> We want a decent desktop environment with a good system for managing application windows... We want updates that don't cause problems. We want a good file browser.
Again, you just described Mac. Spaces work amazing and still have better behavior than the windows version that's trying to catch up. Snapping left/right is nice in theory but I don't actually use it that much unless I'm on a huge monitor. And I have no idea what issues you see with Finder, which is generally a super smooth experience for me. Again, I'm just really confused here.
I'll take a Mac terminal over any Windows one, every time. Speaking as someone who uses all 3 OS's at work. The hoops I've had to jump through on Windows just to do basic things are maddening. Mac's terminal experience is one of the reasons I keep going back to it. I'm truly confused how one prefers a windows terminal.
> We want a decent desktop environment with a good system for managing application windows... We want updates that don't cause problems. We want a good file browser.
Again, you just described Mac. Spaces work amazing and still have better behavior than the windows version that's trying to catch up. Snapping left/right is nice in theory but I don't actually use it that much unless I'm on a huge monitor. And I have no idea what issues you see with Finder, which is generally a super smooth experience for me. Again, I'm just really confused here.
I dislike Windows too, but PowerShell is pretty nice if you are stuck in the Windows environment. It's not really a Unix-like shell, but it is comfortable enough compared to the rest of the ecosystem.
"..Windows Update makes Windows barely usable..." I find this claim to be over exaggerated. I'm not exactly sure how their update schedule works exactly but in my case it updates some parts transparently without me needing to stop working. Updates that require reboot definitely do not happen once per week and never when I am in front of computer.
I have no problems with access to working "Unix like" shell either. My laptops and desktop are beastly and have no problem running Ubuntu in VM. WSL works like a charm as well. But I rarely use either since for Linux development work and for running servers I use real Linux computers in headless mode running NoMachine for remote access. Windows being used for developing Windows GUI software duh, and for productivity tools, Video, Photo, CAD, PCB design etc. etc.
I have no problems with access to working "Unix like" shell either. My laptops and desktop are beastly and have no problem running Ubuntu in VM. WSL works like a charm as well. But I rarely use either since for Linux development work and for running servers I use real Linux computers in headless mode running NoMachine for remote access. Windows being used for developing Windows GUI software duh, and for productivity tools, Video, Photo, CAD, PCB design etc. etc.
This is a solved problem now. It no longer does the restart thing (or hasn't for a long time). It gives a 7-day pause option too.
The two things that break Windows are spaces-in-filenames, and max-filepath-length. Urgh.
MacOS is broken in a different way: no more 32-bit (so the death of legacy applications) and notarization (need an Apple thumbs-up to run programs).
The two things that break Windows are spaces-in-filenames, and max-filepath-length. Urgh.
MacOS is broken in a different way: no more 32-bit (so the death of legacy applications) and notarization (need an Apple thumbs-up to run programs).
To be fair, I think these days Windows has a better auto-update story than OSX. They may both be equally annoying. I have suffered involuntary restarts on both operating systems.
The big difference is that I can turn off auto update on OS X. It's not even on by default, although you are encouraged to enable it.
(Apple has the ability to forcibly push updates, but they almost never use it.)
(Apple has the ability to forcibly push updates, but they almost never use it.)
I have never turned on auto-update, and I have had my work laptop restart on me without my permission. It simply showed me a dialogue box stating that the computer is going to restart upon hitting ok and that I better save my work. Where I work, we mob program, and this has happened to my team mates on many occasions.
...well, I'm quite confused, because this has never happened to me.
It's happened to me frequently. I think it may be from corp device management forcing security updates
Ah, that explains it! Especially since GP was also referring to a work machine.
Windows updates go out once a month unless there’s a massive problem. If you’re seeing weekly restarts it is not microsoft that’s doing that.
I see a restart prompt about once every two months on my sole remaining w10 laptop, and it hasn’t forced a reboot on me in the middle of my work in over a year. Ubuntu prompts me to restart more often.
I see a restart prompt about once every two months on my sole remaining w10 laptop, and it hasn’t forced a reboot on me in the middle of my work in over a year. Ubuntu prompts me to restart more often.
Windows has full linux distros installed from the store. Unlike mac that comes with outdated shell and yout have to trust whoever it is that runs brew.
Technically not yet, once WSL2 is mainline there will finally be proper Linux support in Windows. WSL1 is a series of shimmed calls to the NT Kernel and as a first implementation it’s pretty bad ass but to call it an environment for full Linux distros is misleading consider things like systemd are completely missing at the moment.
Windows is a dumpster fire https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EEkeonCW4AE2HHb.jpg
That's build 10162. It's now on build 18362.
That's like comparing current MacOS with one from years ago which also has some weird UI things going on. In Windows, certainly some of these have been fixed but aside from being visual anomalies everything works.
The kicker for me is Apple hiding / removing the things I use, such as Keychain in the menu bar. OSX / MacOS is slowly getting worse.
That's like comparing current MacOS with one from years ago which also has some weird UI things going on. In Windows, certainly some of these have been fixed but aside from being visual anomalies everything works.
The kicker for me is Apple hiding / removing the things I use, such as Keychain in the menu bar. OSX / MacOS is slowly getting worse.
Windows is getting worse. They are adding crazy design ideas that they can't possibly support, with new UI quirks. While the foundation is tragically broken (typography differences etc). The new timeline has a hilarious hiccup in the animation that makes no sense at all.
You're going to get some responses where people say System76 and Pop_OS!, but it really only visually looks decent and optimizes much of the Linux laptop experience. It still doesn't have, for instance...
- Application support for graphics editors that people need in 2019... you can either run macOS or Windows for this
- Built-in cross-device syncing like iCloud/CloudKit
- Smooth integration with peripheral devices (e.g, HandOff)
This list could be extended for quite a ways, as people seemingly want to ignore part of what still makes macOS great - you have very well done product integration across the entire stack. I want it to "just work" in 2019 so I can live my life instead of tinkering with an OS/hardware combo.
The analogy I like to give people is that buying a Macbook is kind of like buying a BMW after years building your own tuner car. I'll always enjoy building my own, but man... if my daily driver breaks, I just wanna pay someone to fix it. Gimme the luxury feel already.
- Application support for graphics editors that people need in 2019... you can either run macOS or Windows for this
- Built-in cross-device syncing like iCloud/CloudKit
- Smooth integration with peripheral devices (e.g, HandOff)
This list could be extended for quite a ways, as people seemingly want to ignore part of what still makes macOS great - you have very well done product integration across the entire stack. I want it to "just work" in 2019 so I can live my life instead of tinkering with an OS/hardware combo.
The analogy I like to give people is that buying a Macbook is kind of like buying a BMW after years building your own tuner car. I'll always enjoy building my own, but man... if my daily driver breaks, I just wanna pay someone to fix it. Gimme the luxury feel already.
A Mac is like a BMW, flashy, expensive, and always in the shop for repairs.
Compared to Linux on a laptop: the over-tweaked Mazda RX7 rolling down the road, loud as hell, where the slightest wrong bump may give you hours of fun/hell in fixing parts. You're also missing seats because you put a roll-cage in for whatever reason.;P
Give a Pixel Book a try.
It has plenty of differences from Mac OS, but most of them are positive.
If Google could get Adobe on-board with Linux support, and built a consumer foot-print a la Apple, I'd probably go there.
Dealing with their crappy third-party resellers is just a non-starter. It says that Google doesn't stand behind their own product with their own customer service, and I just can't abide that.
It has plenty of differences from Mac OS, but most of them are positive.
If Google could get Adobe on-board with Linux support, and built a consumer foot-print a la Apple, I'd probably go there.
Dealing with their crappy third-party resellers is just a non-starter. It says that Google doesn't stand behind their own product with their own customer service, and I just can't abide that.
> It has plenty of differences from Mac OS, but most of them are positive.
Like what? The lack of all desktop software? It is only even halfway decent if you live out of a web browser.
Like what? The lack of all desktop software? It is only even halfway decent if you live out of a web browser.
With crostini you can now run linux apps. It is still in beta.
Ah, good to know. Haven't tried Chromebooks in a while because I didn't want only a browser. Might revisit when this hits stable.
It's a dirty dirty myth that you can only run Chrome in ChromeOS: https://github.com/skycocker/chromebrew
You don't even need Crostini.
You don't even need Crostini.
Yeah, I was running Firefox via crostini for a while and it worked really well.
I tried this by the way, you pay in performance in a big way. Even if you don’t need hardware acceleration the general compile performance is bad, about 3X longer on a large angular project than a MacBook Air.
>If Google could get Adobe on-board with Linux support
Google may convince Adobe to make one for Android like in iPad Pro which will function fine on Chromebook, there's no reason for Adobe to start supporting Linux.
Google may convince Adobe to make one for Android like in iPad Pro which will function fine on Chromebook, there's no reason for Adobe to start supporting Linux.
The biggest problem with that idea is that you would need to convince the developers who write Mac software to also develop for Linux. There are some really powerful pieces of software on Linux, but almost none of them are designed half as nicely as most Mac software.
> There are some really powerful pieces of software on Linux, but almost none of them are designed half as nicely as most Mac software.
That is probably not because Mac developers are inherently more "design affine" but because there is a very clear design standard on MacOS while Linux is basically a complete clusterfuck with 20 different desktops etc. So it's not as much a matter of getting Mac devs to also make stuff for Linux as getting Linux to be more standardized.
That is probably not because Mac developers are inherently more "design affine" but because there is a very clear design standard on MacOS while Linux is basically a complete clusterfuck with 20 different desktops etc. So it's not as much a matter of getting Mac devs to also make stuff for Linux as getting Linux to be more standardized.
Yeah, could definitely be a combination factors. Mostly I think it is that people who care about design have frequently gravitated toward the mac because of their nice design.
Thats basically huawei and deepin.
People buy a Mac or Windows machine because they want to run Mac or Windows software. What good does a super high quality Linux laptop do for the person that needs to run Visual Studio?
One of the things that stops a custom Linux distro from taking off is the lack of support for pro applications. If you can't run Creative Cloud natively, it's a non-started for many people in the target market.
> Thing is, Mac OS isn't as great as it used to be either.
That's 100% true. MacOS gets a little worse with each new release.
But there is still one area where MacOS shines: backup and restore. I've had the same user account on five different machines now, because I just restore from a time machine backup every time I buy a new Mac.
And I cannot think of an easier way to backup my wife's laptop than pointing it at our time machine server and letting it just work.
Time machine is the biggest thing keeping me on MacOS right now. If your fancy Linux distro solved that, I'd be very tempted to switch.
> Thing is, Mac OS isn't as great as it used to be either.
That's 100% true. MacOS gets a little worse with each new release.
But there is still one area where MacOS shines: backup and restore. I've had the same user account on five different machines now, because I just restore from a time machine backup every time I buy a new Mac.
And I cannot think of an easier way to backup my wife's laptop than pointing it at our time machine server and letting it just work.
Time machine is the biggest thing keeping me on MacOS right now. If your fancy Linux distro solved that, I'd be very tempted to switch.
>laptops with their own custom super nice Linux-based
They did, they're Pixelbook from Google. Once you build a competitive 'mass market' laptop with Linux, you'll inevitably end up with something like ChromeOS.
They did, they're Pixelbook from Google. Once you build a competitive 'mass market' laptop with Linux, you'll inevitably end up with something like ChromeOS.
Windows 10 has improved a lot and in many ways gives better user experience than MacOS. And for terminal needs, yout very an actual linux environment fully updated with latest software unlike the hack that brew on mac is.
> Hackintoshes need not apply here.
If it's just about running MacOS, they absolutely apply.
If it's just about running MacOS, they absolutely apply.
MacOS as an experience includes things like proper handoff support, Messages support, and so on - things that historically become a pain in the ass with a Hackintosh.
So no, I don't consider it the same. It's a great hack if you want a ton of power for a build machine, but otherwise... I'd rather pay the financial cost up front and just be done with it.
So no, I don't consider it the same. It's a great hack if you want a ton of power for a build machine, but otherwise... I'd rather pay the financial cost up front and just be done with it.
Let's face it iOS and need for software for it is keeping Apple computers alive. If one day it would be possible to develop iOS apps on other operating systems Macs sales would crash.
You really think iOS developers are the majority of Mac sales? You can debunk that in two minutes of Googling.
Be my guest. iOS devs and people that are locked with MacOS exclusive apps are most of the professional customers.
Changing your assertion from Mac users in general to "professionals" is moving the goal posts a long way.
As of last year, roughly 10% of all personal computers on the internet are Macs. Do you think a majority of those--say 6% of all PC users worldwide--are iOS devs and other professional MacOS lock-ins?
As of last year, roughly 10% of all personal computers on the internet are Macs. Do you think a majority of those--say 6% of all PC users worldwide--are iOS devs and other professional MacOS lock-ins?
The worldwide installed base of the Mac is 100 million. There only a bit over 2 million apps in the app store, so it seems unlikely a large proportion of those 100 million Macs are used to develop iOS apps.
Citation needed.
Every software company I've worked in building websites/webapps (Ruby, Python, Java, HTML/CSS/JS/React/whatever etc.) tends to issue their developers with MBPs. None of them need to do so for Xcode to build Mac/iOS apps. A few people may opt for Lenovos running Linux, but they're a distinct minority who really likes compiling their own tiling window manager from scratch etc.
Why MBP as standard? Because you get a reasonably stable Unix box that also runs commercial business and productivity software (Office, video conference stuff), and the Adobe suite for the front-end/creative folks.
Windows is going after that with WSL. Linux is going after that with, err, GNU/Freedom I guess?
Writing Python/Ruby/JavaScript/Java/Go/Elixir/whatever hot new shiny, in Atom or Vim or VSCode, is about as easy on Linux as it is on Mac (and it is getting better on Windows with WSL). But when you've got to use some awful video conferencing corporate crapware, there's at least some chance it'll work on a Mac in a way it won't on Linux.
Every software company I've worked in building websites/webapps (Ruby, Python, Java, HTML/CSS/JS/React/whatever etc.) tends to issue their developers with MBPs. None of them need to do so for Xcode to build Mac/iOS apps. A few people may opt for Lenovos running Linux, but they're a distinct minority who really likes compiling their own tiling window manager from scratch etc.
Why MBP as standard? Because you get a reasonably stable Unix box that also runs commercial business and productivity software (Office, video conference stuff), and the Adobe suite for the front-end/creative folks.
Windows is going after that with WSL. Linux is going after that with, err, GNU/Freedom I guess?
Writing Python/Ruby/JavaScript/Java/Go/Elixir/whatever hot new shiny, in Atom or Vim or VSCode, is about as easy on Linux as it is on Mac (and it is getting better on Windows with WSL). But when you've got to use some awful video conferencing corporate crapware, there's at least some chance it'll work on a Mac in a way it won't on Linux.
Just a guess - but you are in the US, right? In most other places of the world I have not seen macbooks being used for non Apple related development tasks due to pricing.
I am in Europe, and in the country that used to be a part of USSR. The last four companies I worked for also offered Macbooks for developers by default.
It's interesting to hear. I have not seen a lot of Macbooks in any of the companies I worked for nor the one we partnered with in germany. At least in software development, in creative domains (photo, video) things are different.
In north america Macbooks seem to be more or less the default hardware (also mainly my personal impressions - since I moved there).
In north america Macbooks seem to be more or less the default hardware (also mainly my personal impressions - since I moved there).
That seems unlikely given that the Air range are by far the most popular models, and are squarely aimed at the mass consumer market. Also it’s seems a bit unlikely the masses of people crowding in the Apple stores in the UK all the time are all developers.
you get a reasonably stable Unix box that also runs some commercial business software and worst terminal experience than running full ubuntu on windows wsl. Ubuntu on WSL> brew on mac.
I've had the opposite problem: I love Apple hardware, but have never been a big fan of macOS. Unfortunately, since 2016 or so, Apple has been putting so much non-standard, proprietary hardware in their laptops (getting worse and worse every year) that the struggle to get Linux running well enough on them has been more than I've cared to deal with, so I recently jumped ship (junk like the Touch Bar and the general keyboard issues haven't helped my opinion either). I genuinely do like my new Dell XPS 13, but it still just doesn't have the same nice feel that a MacBook does.
I recently went through the experience of having to adopt OS X after switching employers coming from primarily using unix flavors and Windows my entire career, avoiding OS X at every turn.
My summarized conclusion is that: OS X isn't that great. It's not "bad," don't get me wrong, but it's nothing marvelous. Perhaps at one point in time there was some advantage over a Windows or linux environment but at this point in time, unless you're tied to some package tied to a specific environment for some reason, just work with the environment you're most comfortable with. I don't know how much time I've had to waste adjusting to the OS X environment (especially muscle memory keyboard shortcuts I'm accustomed to), finding replacement niche applications that were environment specific, figuring out how to do basic tasks that are simply different.
On that note, avoid committing to a specific environment unless your application really needs to squeeze out every cycle of performance. It's 2019 and we have portable options now for most application demands.
My summarized conclusion is that: OS X isn't that great. It's not "bad," don't get me wrong, but it's nothing marvelous. Perhaps at one point in time there was some advantage over a Windows or linux environment but at this point in time, unless you're tied to some package tied to a specific environment for some reason, just work with the environment you're most comfortable with. I don't know how much time I've had to waste adjusting to the OS X environment (especially muscle memory keyboard shortcuts I'm accustomed to), finding replacement niche applications that were environment specific, figuring out how to do basic tasks that are simply different.
On that note, avoid committing to a specific environment unless your application really needs to squeeze out every cycle of performance. It's 2019 and we have portable options now for most application demands.
Your experience is just you finding what you like and then running up against something doing it differently. This is like moving to another country and complaining the culture is different.
In which case, move home or somewhere else more to your liking? There's nothing inherently wrong with the way things work on Mac.
In which case, move home or somewhere else more to your liking? There's nothing inherently wrong with the way things work on Mac.
I think the point was missed since this reiterates what I stated. The analogy isn't correct.
I have nothing against OS X but why switch if there's no justification other than for the sake of doing it (unless it's to satisfy your own interest, in which case: don't complain)?
Using the above analogy: why would I move from... NYC to HK if there's no reason to do so? Why push someone or promote a change from X to Y unless there's a justified rationale for it? Change for the sake of change isn't inherently justifiable in-and-of-itself.
Pushing OS X as being generically inferior (or superior) needs justification because I don't necessarily see it.
I have nothing against OS X but why switch if there's no justification other than for the sake of doing it (unless it's to satisfy your own interest, in which case: don't complain)?
Using the above analogy: why would I move from... NYC to HK if there's no reason to do so? Why push someone or promote a change from X to Y unless there's a justified rationale for it? Change for the sake of change isn't inherently justifiable in-and-of-itself.
Pushing OS X as being generically inferior (or superior) needs justification because I don't necessarily see it.
I agree with you. I have the same feeling with Linux. I'm on Mac and don't have any real upside changing to Linux.
1. I think we can agree that making a switch of OS imposes quite some costs. You made the switch to macOS and found it all right. Now imagine I'd make the switch from macOS to some other OS - I'm quite certain that it would be worse.
2. I've used Windows and macOS concurrently, and was always amazed at how bad the Windows experience was (though, yes, it has improved, and unfortunately, as alluded to by Gruber in his piece on the new MBP [1], Apple has paid too much attention to looks and not enough to functionality in the last half decade).
3. I found most "portable" options (eg Electron, qt, etc.) generally worse than native apps. Exceptions are pure CLI tools - they're great (use homebrew on the Mac to manage those!)
[1] https://daringfireball.net/2019/11/16-inch_macbook_pro_first...
2. I've used Windows and macOS concurrently, and was always amazed at how bad the Windows experience was (though, yes, it has improved, and unfortunately, as alluded to by Gruber in his piece on the new MBP [1], Apple has paid too much attention to looks and not enough to functionality in the last half decade).
3. I found most "portable" options (eg Electron, qt, etc.) generally worse than native apps. Exceptions are pure CLI tools - they're great (use homebrew on the Mac to manage those!)
[1] https://daringfireball.net/2019/11/16-inch_macbook_pro_first...
Disclaimer: My apple experience is pretty much limited to trying to figure out why Safari is the only browser once again not doing things right, to helping my mother with her iPhone and to trying to make iTunes work in an (imo) sane way.
> Now imagine I'd make the switch from macOS to some other OS - I'm quite certain that it would be worse.
My impression of everything Apple has always been "There is one god-given way to do a thing. And it’s wonderful". But as soon as you don’t want to do it that way, things become weird or impossible.
If that’s even close to the truth, it would make a lot of sense that the opposite road is hard as you are trained to do things one certain way only.
> Now imagine I'd make the switch from macOS to some other OS - I'm quite certain that it would be worse.
My impression of everything Apple has always been "There is one god-given way to do a thing. And it’s wonderful". But as soon as you don’t want to do it that way, things become weird or impossible.
If that’s even close to the truth, it would make a lot of sense that the opposite road is hard as you are trained to do things one certain way only.
> Apple has always been "There is one god-given way to do a thing. And it’s wonderful". But as soon as you don’t want to do it that way, things become weird or impossible
Interesting, I find hacking and automating and customising on macOS much easier than on Windows, with the UNIX underpinnings and command line tools and Automator and script support etc.
(iOS - agreed, that's a walled garden)
Interesting, I find hacking and automating and customising on macOS much easier than on Windows, with the UNIX underpinnings and command line tools and Automator and script support etc.
(iOS - agreed, that's a walled garden)
The quality of MacOSX just degraded over the last 5 years or so. It became buggier and slower. At this point, I would actually prefer Linux for my main desktop instead of macOS (if the hardware is well supported by Linux). I used to like macOS, but just as the hardware, it became worse and worse. So, comparing the MacBook with another notebook with similar hardware quality which is well supported by Linux, I would prefer the Linux notebook.
You're saying that like macOS is a plus here.
...to those who choose to run it, yes, it is.
I've noted this in a few other comments here but there's more to it than just the base computing system. Apple products as an ecosystem dwarf whatever you'd cobble together in some homegrown Linux-based setup, and Windows in general just feels... really messy, like there's no clear consensus on how the ecosystem should work.
I've noted this in a few other comments here but there's more to it than just the base computing system. Apple products as an ecosystem dwarf whatever you'd cobble together in some homegrown Linux-based setup, and Windows in general just feels... really messy, like there's no clear consensus on how the ecosystem should work.
The only thing linux/other laptop manufacturer need at this point is better touchbar.
There are nothing else making the macbook lines worth it. If Linux with hardware manufacturer come up with a standard for greater touchbar control, the mac will be out of circulation in no time.
There are nothing else making the macbook lines worth it. If Linux with hardware manufacturer come up with a standard for greater touchbar control, the mac will be out of circulation in no time.
Yep, it's the high reliability & quality of the first party software (Safari, their office apps, notes, and so on), the excellent battery life (largely due to the software—run a browser other than Safari and watch that benefit take a huge hit), having a Unixy OS that's way less of a PITA on a laptop than Linux (ran it for years as my main OS, including on a Thinkpad, so yes, I'm familiar), and the touchpad that doesn't make me feel like I have to have a mouse to use the machine for more than five minutes, that keep me on board.
There were other things (good-enough port selection complementing the high battery life and good trackpad to mean I could just grab my laptop and go for nearly any situation, without taking anything else, being high among them) but they're gone now. It's basically the software and the trackpad keeping me around. I'd rather use a "worse" Macbook specs-wise than a Win10 or Linux laptop that's much better on paper, because the experience will still suck far less. Design, "thinness", trendiness, all that, don't give a shit. Give me a brick of a Thinkpad with an Apple trackpad, official macOS support, and a 20% lower price than a MBP at same specs, and I'll take that option in a heartbeat.
There were other things (good-enough port selection complementing the high battery life and good trackpad to mean I could just grab my laptop and go for nearly any situation, without taking anything else, being high among them) but they're gone now. It's basically the software and the trackpad keeping me around. I'd rather use a "worse" Macbook specs-wise than a Win10 or Linux laptop that's much better on paper, because the experience will still suck far less. Design, "thinness", trendiness, all that, don't give a shit. Give me a brick of a Thinkpad with an Apple trackpad, official macOS support, and a 20% lower price than a MBP at same specs, and I'll take that option in a heartbeat.
That's not macOS, I'm using Linux on my MacBook for two years now and it feels pleasurable to use the touchpad just as it was before.
No, this _is_ macOS - you won't have the same gesture(s), the fidelity, on other OS's. Apple goes to great lengths to ensure their trackpad is amazing on both the hardware and software side, and it shows. The drivers on Linux even running on a Macbook don't compare.
Why wouldn't we say firm no, until the classic keys are fully back.
This is a little tangential, but does anybody find it weird that, even on desktop, the article seems hyperoptimized for mobile? The huge margins made it feel like I was reading on a phone emulator instead of on a desktop.
I did glance up and the address bar to double check that I hadn't ended up on their mobile site. Very odd design.
Only a few more iterations before we have the complete row of Fn Keys!
That said, I'm glad they bumped up the base to 512GB and the keyboard is improved.
That said, I'm glad they bumped up the base to 512GB and the keyboard is improved.
It's amazing to see such a positive response to such weak sauce with the touchbar. Our expectations really have fallen through the floor. There is no reason the escape key needs to be physical that doesn't also apply to the function keys. So why has Apple admitted the touchbar doesn't work, but still forces you to use it for F keys. With this form factor it wouldn't have been difficult to have function keys as well as a touchbar- but Apple don't seem interested in actually solving this problem.
I'm very tired of having to settle for serious shortcomings in what used to be such a great product.
I'm very tired of having to settle for serious shortcomings in what used to be such a great product.
> There is no reason the escape key needs to be physical that doesn't also apply to the function keys.
IMO, those are completely different.
The sscape key provides access to a fundamental concept, "go back, undo, I didn't mean it, no!". This even goes beyond humans. E.g, my dogs have the same concept.
Function keys are abstract in a distended way... they mean, generally, some function specific to a certain context that doesn't fit into the general patterns, but is maybe pretty commonly needed in that context.
IMO, the Touch Bar, with text and graphical cues, is better suited. Of course, various software has been written to the F1-12 abstraction, and physical keys are nicer to type on, so it's not all good. But I think this is a case of one step back, two steps forward.
IMO, those are completely different.
The sscape key provides access to a fundamental concept, "go back, undo, I didn't mean it, no!". This even goes beyond humans. E.g, my dogs have the same concept.
Function keys are abstract in a distended way... they mean, generally, some function specific to a certain context that doesn't fit into the general patterns, but is maybe pretty commonly needed in that context.
IMO, the Touch Bar, with text and graphical cues, is better suited. Of course, various software has been written to the F1-12 abstraction, and physical keys are nicer to type on, so it's not all good. But I think this is a case of one step back, two steps forward.
Got my 2019 top spec but then revert to get a macbook old stock for daily use. The macbook 12 inch is great. Work nicely with my ipad. Can’t do two screen even the 2nd screen did show. But all is fine. The 15 cold feet.
Can't wait for a review of how the thermals work.
I find it bizarre that Apple hasn't cottoned on to the market for 14" laptops yet.
Easily the best tradeoff for me between screensize and carry-ability.
Easily the best tradeoff for me between screensize and carry-ability.
I wonder how many developers purchase MBP that don't require to build iOS apps or install xcode.
I realize i don't even look at other laptop makers just because i need to build iOS apps (which in theory shouldn't have any kind of relation) That's probably the textbook definition of monopolistic abuse.
I realize i don't even look at other laptop makers just because i need to build iOS apps (which in theory shouldn't have any kind of relation) That's probably the textbook definition of monopolistic abuse.
Out of myself and my nine coworkers (all developers) I believe that 6 of the 10 use MPBs. We don’t build iOS apps or use Xcode. I should also note that we have a BYOD policy so.
I am still pretty astonished at the strict lack of the ports you would expect on a typical pro laptop: Ethernet, HDMI and at least one USB-A in particular. As someone who occasionally forgets to bring dongles with me, it's a bit of a shame.
MKBHD already has an overview video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDAv4qOU_04 (with apparently real hardware).
With the 15" MBP being EOLed into a 16", it's hard not to wonder if the 13.3" displays might become 14". Makes a big difference at the size, as the X1 Carbon is able to prove.
Do advertising exaggerations belong in a post title?
It feels as though Apple looked at the two biggest complaints, and gave the smallest concessions they possibly could.
• The keyboard uses scissor switches (and thus hopefully won't completely die), but still only has 1mm of key travel.
• They added back an escape key to the top row, but the touch bar is still there—and there's still no function keys as a result.
The keyboard, okay, maybe Apple really needs those thinness metrics for marketing purposes—but would it really have killed them to up the travel to 2mm? And, why the heck are they so dug in on the touchbar? While I admittedly only have anecdotal evidence, I think it's relatively clear at this point that neither users nor developers have taken to it in any significant way. Just kill it already. It's been three years—if people haven't discovered how amazing it is by now, they aren't going to have a sudden awakening.
• The keyboard uses scissor switches (and thus hopefully won't completely die), but still only has 1mm of key travel.
• They added back an escape key to the top row, but the touch bar is still there—and there's still no function keys as a result.
The keyboard, okay, maybe Apple really needs those thinness metrics for marketing purposes—but would it really have killed them to up the travel to 2mm? And, why the heck are they so dug in on the touchbar? While I admittedly only have anecdotal evidence, I think it's relatively clear at this point that neither users nor developers have taken to it in any significant way. Just kill it already. It's been three years—if people haven't discovered how amazing it is by now, they aren't going to have a sudden awakening.
> maybe Apple really needs those thinness metrics for marketing purposes
Surely the thinness of the keyboards hasn't been relevant in marketing in a while? what kind of consumer does this excite? Surprised Apple are still shouting about it.
Surely the thinness of the keyboards hasn't been relevant in marketing in a while? what kind of consumer does this excite? Surprised Apple are still shouting about it.
I don't know! I would think so, but then why do they keep doing it?
I legitimately don't understand why you wouldn't add just a tiny bit more key travel. Typing is one of the primary functions of a laptop.
I legitimately don't understand why you wouldn't add just a tiny bit more key travel. Typing is one of the primary functions of a laptop.
I was thinking to buy that line of MB, but since September I fully switched to Linux after being OSX user for the last 14 years. I ditched my mbp for a Dell XPS 7390 (latest model, 16GB RAM, i7 10th). Me and my girl couldn't be happier.
Me, because I ditched that monopolistic machine, which you can't fully enjoy if you are not in Apple's ecosystem. The only Apple machine I have is macbook. Even my desktop was a hackintosh. As a developer Linux gave me extreme freedom. The only thing I miss, is the touchpad but I learned to live without it.
My girl because I gave her my Macbook Pro 2015 and moved away from windows, win-win situation, the machine will just "work"
Me, because I ditched that monopolistic machine, which you can't fully enjoy if you are not in Apple's ecosystem. The only Apple machine I have is macbook. Even my desktop was a hackintosh. As a developer Linux gave me extreme freedom. The only thing I miss, is the touchpad but I learned to live without it.
My girl because I gave her my Macbook Pro 2015 and moved away from windows, win-win situation, the machine will just "work"
I am very happy about this and the Mac Pro -- it seems like Apple is finally admitting where it has room for improvement in hardware.
Which, of course, makes me wonder whether they will ever abandon their hubris with software. There really ought to be a Rosetta-style compatibility layer for 32-bit and GC apps in macOS. Sadly, I don't think that will ever happen. Anyone know whether it's possible to install Mojave on one of these?
I've been a Mac user for thirteen years this month. I'm not sure I can buy another one.
Which, of course, makes me wonder whether they will ever abandon their hubris with software. There really ought to be a Rosetta-style compatibility layer for 32-bit and GC apps in macOS. Sadly, I don't think that will ever happen. Anyone know whether it's possible to install Mojave on one of these?
I've been a Mac user for thirteen years this month. I'm not sure I can buy another one.
If your workflow allows for switch then just pull the trigger and buy cheaper and faster Windows or Linux machine. IMHO Macs are extremely overpriced and should be bought only by people who are tied to MacOS ecosystem (iOS development, Final Cut Pro etc.)
a couple of months ago I bought a fully decked out 15" for $6k CAD; for the same amount, I can now get a 16", and double the storage and slightly better graphics.
What the hell! I'm going to try getting a replacement from Apple. The 15" upgrade that I got was just announced too when I got it.
What the hell! I'm going to try getting a replacement from Apple. The 15" upgrade that I got was just announced too when I got it.
My first laptop was an Apple PowerBook 140 and I've owned a succession of Mac laptops since then (Wallstreet, G4 Aluminum, 2012 & 2017 Macbook Pro) and yet I'm typing this on a Surface Pro because I had such a poor experience with the 2017 Macbook Pro that I'll probably never go back. That keyboard was such junk that I literally feel like Apple robbed me. I really regret not returning the computer within the two week window for a full refund. I realize this rant isn't very productive but I still hope the ghost of Steve Jobs reads it.
Why do they get away with saying the world’s best pro notebook“ when I don’t see anything materially better than the dell precision 55xx and 75xx line?
More pixels in the 15.6 Xeon chip 5ghz 128GB ECC memory
I guess I’m wondering what metric singles this one out as being best?
More pixels in the 15.6 Xeon chip 5ghz 128GB ECC memory
I guess I’m wondering what metric singles this one out as being best?
> I guess I’m wondering what metric singles this one out as being best?
Apple have probably decided that it is the best because it has the best hardware that is running OSX. I think they consider any other OS inferior, no matter what hardware it is running on.
Apple have probably decided that it is the best because it has the best hardware that is running OSX. I think they consider any other OS inferior, no matter what hardware it is running on.
Don't forget that the Touch Bar costs an additional $400 for consumers.
The 2015 model was the best MacBook Pro. Perhaps the best laptop yet.
The 2015 model was the best MacBook Pro. Perhaps the best laptop yet.
btw. the 16" model is cheaper than the 15" from the year before (in the base configuration they are equal, if you add additional ssd space or so, the 16" model comes out cheaper).
not that it matters much, since the 15" pro late 2013 model was cheaper than both.
I just got a 2019 at end of May - earlier 2015 broke, needed one ASAP. Didn't want a Touch Bar (had returned a 2016 model I got on release - didn't like it). Now... same price, this has physical escape key and 1TB out of the box. Slightly annoyed...
yeah I would be annoyed also. I knew that my late 2013 has his issues after hard usage (battery swelled, etc) so I need one really soon, but I knew that the 2019/2020 will have a new model so I waited exactly for that.
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wish I could have waited these 6 months.
Have you gone to apple for the battery swelling issue? I took mine in after part of the trackpad stopped working and a fan starting whining non-stop. They ended up replacing the case, battery, fan, and potentially even the keyboard and screen (looked like it from what I could tell) for only $300. It felt brand new when I got it back.
Agreed, I'm still on a 2015 model and still super happy, even battery life is OK.
Every time a new MacBook Pro is announced, I'm a bit excited but then I compare and I find no good enough incentive to upgrade yet.
I'm secretly hoping that my 2015 model dies so I can upgrade to a newer sexier one, but the damn beast keeps on working great.
I'm secretly hoping that my 2015 model dies so I can upgrade to a newer sexier one, but the damn beast keeps on working great.
2013 MBP 13" here... not gonna happen.
Late 2013 15" MBP, will definitely upgrade to 2015 15" when it dies in a few years.
Once my 2015 MBP dies, I'll probably replace it with the most maxed-out refurbished 2015 MBP I can find. It's the perfect laptop.
I've looked, out of curiosity, at the prices you pay for refurbished ones around here (Germany), and most offers for the refurbished 2015 now exceed what I paid for a new one back in 2015 (same configuration, of course).
It would seem, there is demand.
It would seem, there is demand.
2010 15” here, this might be the model that gets me to update...
I'm still using a 2010, and while I did upgrade to an SSD and added some RAM, it's still going strong. The only thing making me consider upgrading is that OS X upgrades stopped supporting it.
Where did you get yours upgraded? I have a 2014 Macbook Air but I'm thinking most 3rd party shops won't touch an Air for upgrades
On the 2010 models upgrading the RAM or hard drive just involved a specific screwdriver to take the back off. It took approximately 5 minutes to do at home.
Pretty sure its impossible to upgrade the Air unfortunately.
Pretty sure its impossible to upgrade the Air unfortunately.
Also a 2015 MBP user chiming in. I see absolutely no reason to upgrade. Currently in need of a battery replacement. Still deciding whether it's worth attempting myself or to just shell out the extra $100 for Apple to do it.
My 2014 MBP is chugging along well - I'm also in for a battery replacement, but other than that, it's doing just fine.
Same with iPhone 6s. Not sure why can't admit that reached the peak with a product and just keep producing it that way, maybe with minor modifications only. I would totally keep buying 2015 MPBs and iPhone6s till the end of times.
Isn't this kind of like the "they'd ask for faster horses" quote?
Exactly what I was thinking: "Our pro customers tell us they want their next horse to have blazing-fast performance etc."
This is exactly it. I need a horse, it can be slightly faster, not required though. There is no horse vs car improvement between iPhone 6s vs iPhone 11, but they removed jack and increased price for no good reason. Btw. I do not think that there can be a horse vs car bump in UX for phones. Maybe I am my imagination is limited. :)
briandear(1)
Maybe it is not a car from a horse, but it certainly is a motorcycle in terms of UX improvements.
FaceID, swipe interactions over a button and IMO the removed chin makes it all into a big user experience jump.
FaceID, swipe interactions over a button and IMO the removed chin makes it all into a big user experience jump.
Not sure how many favor swipe interactions over having a button.
I'd guess a lot who have gotten used to it (as in - not used it to try out).
Can you even fast-switch between applications on a buttoned iPhone? It's probably my number one used interaction on the phone.
Can you even fast-switch between applications on a buttoned iPhone? It's probably my number one used interaction on the phone.
Sure, but instead of creating the Model T Apple created an ambling burro. Some people like it for some use cases, but a lot of those who just wanted a faster horse are understandably a bit miffed.
the 8 is basically a 6s, right?
No headphone jack, which is big for me. If I was willing to ditch the headphone jack I'd just get the 11 Pro.
Same, I use a iPad mini for music & phone conversations because I will not give up my headphones, unless they produce a wireless one that I can charge once a year and it can transfer ALAC/FLAC, and it has the sound quality of the previous one.
Well at least with the new phones you can use a lightning -> headphone converter and a wireless charger so there is that. Not ideal as i miss the headphone jack and don't like wireless too but it works well.
I'm still using mine at work. I got a 2018 once and then went back to IT a few hours later and asked if I could trade back.
It always seemed backwards that the touch bar is a pro feature. Aren't pros the group that learn all the keyboard commands? The touch bar seems like it would be most useful to non-pro users.
Yeah, I think "pro" just means "expensive" :)
the term " pro " appeared (by my count) 56 times in the apple press release. Pro to me is now just a marketing term.
AirPod Pro.
[deleted]
My assumption has always been that the "Pro" line is aimed at content creators. Because in lots of professional work you would want a plethora of ports which Apple doesn't give you.
When they started removing ports I use I switched to a Thinkpad T-series. It's been the perfect laptop for my use.
When they started removing ports I use I switched to a Thinkpad T-series. It's been the perfect laptop for my use.
I mostly think of it as the emoji bar. It's genuinely useful for people (pros and non-pros) who type a lot of emojis to have them on the keyboard. But it's certainly not specifically a pro feature, I agree 100%.
Apple probably has better data on how it gets used than I do, but that's almost exclusively what I'd use it for if I had it.
Apple probably has better data on how it gets used than I do, but that's almost exclusively what I'd use it for if I had it.
Can you do audio or video scrubbing with FN keys? Have you used touchbar with Photoshop or similar apps? A Pro User doesn’t mean “software developer” — there are a lot of other pros that really love the touchbar.
That's fair, although when I used PS I used the function keys a lot.
Now that I think about this more, if you are right, then why don't the Mac Pros come with a touchbar keyboard? Video and photo editing are probably the primary uses for the Mac Pro.
Because all of those use cases already have purpose built peripherals that would be more appropriate to use with a stationary workstation. Laptops benefit from something more portable and general purpose.
Seems that their idea of "pros" are mostly people like music creators and photographers, not really developers.
Which is fair — film, music, design, photography have been the core pro markets for Apple for much longer than developers have been — Final Cut, Logic Pro and the defunct Aperture are clear proof of that. The Touch Bar kind of became the straw that broke the camel's back for a lot of people, but this prioritisation at the hardware level is much older, and much more pervasive than that.
That sort of creative also gets much more benefit from the four Thunderbolt ports than developers do (we mostly use them as inconvenient USB and/or display ports, and AFAICT Thunderbolt is borderline irrelevant. Same as with Firewire back in the day). As much as I enjoy using my iMac 5k for programming, it's when I use it for Lightroom that I really get a real benefit from it. Most of my development work doesn't benefit that much from an SSD (when I wrote C++ professionally, that was a different story...), but by gods it makes a difference when I try to edit 4k video.
That sort of creative also gets much more benefit from the four Thunderbolt ports than developers do (we mostly use them as inconvenient USB and/or display ports, and AFAICT Thunderbolt is borderline irrelevant. Same as with Firewire back in the day). As much as I enjoy using my iMac 5k for programming, it's when I use it for Lightroom that I really get a real benefit from it. Most of my development work doesn't benefit that much from an SSD (when I wrote C++ professionally, that was a different story...), but by gods it makes a difference when I try to edit 4k video.
Faders are the right abstraction for a lot of pro media stuff. The touch bar is an okay middle ground between keyboard/mouse and a separate hardware control surface.
Apple already has a giant touchpad. That's the sensible place to put the touchbar instead of breaking the Function keys.
The new air pods are called Air Pod Pro. What does pro mean in this context?
Problem is the video card performance is absolute garbage on that thing. Somehow seeming to perform even worse than a prior model I had.
2011 model was the best. I upgraded the RAM and hard drive myself over the years
My personal Macbook Pro is from 2014 and I actually like it better than my 2015 for work. Apple switched from NVIDIA to AMD graphics cards in 2015 and it seems to have had a huge thermal impact. The fans on my work machine run at full speed constantly whenever I plug in an external monitor, but I almost never hear them on my personal machine.
My 2012 Retina was solid, lasted for 7 years till the battery just started going. Had they not glued it in I would have replaced battery and kept going.. hunted for a replacement and really not happy with anything. A compromise was switching to a Razer Blade Base (here in New Zealand we have Consumer Gaurentees Act - so even if it's iffy quality next 5 or so years I can get it fixed for free). From a quality perspective still doesn't really touch a 7 year old machine.... yes it's awesomely fast and at least upgradeable. But the trackpad definitely not the same sensitivity & consistency, chassis I think is ever so slightly warped, fan and heat when it's plugged in is a problem, and screen, well....
> here in New Zealand we have Consumer Gaurentees Act - so even if it's iffy quality next 5 or so years I can get it fixed for free
A quick search reveals the Razer costs around $500 USD more in NZ than in the US (converted prices to USD). The MBP 16" is $400 more. Wouldn't part of the reason it costs more be because of this legislation?
A quick search reveals the Razer costs around $500 USD more in NZ than in the US (converted prices to USD). The MBP 16" is $400 more. Wouldn't part of the reason it costs more be because of this legislation?
Generally speaking we have taxes included in our pricing (often forgotten when doing conversions) and because small market we often get "taken for a ride" as there's limited volume. Not many people actually use the CGA, but if you know about it, it's gold :)
You can get a battery replacement kit from iFixit and do the repair yourself. Not trivial, but really not bad.
> Perhaps the best laptop yet.
I'm sure that would go to one of the old Thinkpads; e.g. X220 still has a massive cult following to the point where it's being moded with modern parts just so people could still use it. You have a very valid point though - seems like 2010-2015 was the golden age of modern laptops then innovation was replaced by gimmick all of a sudden.
I'm sure that would go to one of the old Thinkpads; e.g. X220 still has a massive cult following to the point where it's being moded with modern parts just so people could still use it. You have a very valid point though - seems like 2010-2015 was the golden age of modern laptops then innovation was replaced by gimmick all of a sudden.
As the keyboard replacement program starts ending next year for the earliest lemons it will be interesting to see if Apple voluntarily recalls and replaces anything with these.
I'm pleasantly surprised that Apple decided to implement a physical escape key, the inverted "T" arrangement along with redoing the keyboard.
While I don't know if we should be applauding Apple so heavily, it's good to see that they "listened" to customer feedback and made these changes. I know that I'll be looking forward to getting one after my 2015 MBP gives out.
While I don't know if we should be applauding Apple so heavily, it's good to see that they "listened" to customer feedback and made these changes. I know that I'll be looking forward to getting one after my 2015 MBP gives out.
It makes me always hard laugh when they do claims like "The world's best pro notebook", "the most performant notebook", etc.
The hyperbole really isn’t cute anymore after all of the fuckups. Like, some humility this time would be great. “We listened. We made some mistakes, but we want to fix them.” Don’t come out guns blazing like “this is the BEST laptop EVAR!” You don’t get to claim the world’s best anything when some people have been waiting the length of an entire presidential administration just to buy a usable laptop from you.
This marketing wank actually makes my blood pressure rise.
I think this is the first Apple laptop in 4-5 years that I feel like I can buy.
The 17" Pro from around 2011 was the world's best pro notebook. The things are still pretty capable beasts, even today.
Apple could do well to dust off that design, toss in an updated processor, and put whatever price tag they wanted on it.
Apple could do well to dust off that design, toss in an updated processor, and put whatever price tag they wanted on it.
Now we need the the 13" version as well and we are back in 2015 (with slight improvements).
Can someone explain to me how Apple can justify only including a 720p FaceTime HD camera into the "the world’s best pro notebook"?
The last iPhone that had this FaceTime camera was the 6S, released in 2015. Since the iPhone 7 (2016) the phones have had at least a 1080p FaceTime camera. Given that FaceTime / Skype calls are such a common use case and rarely anyones uses external webcams anymore, why doesn't Apple use the existing camera system of the iPhone 11 for the MacBook?
Seriously, if I pay north of $4000 dollars for a laptop, why do I get an obsolete camera?
The last iPhone that had this FaceTime camera was the 6S, released in 2015. Since the iPhone 7 (2016) the phones have had at least a 1080p FaceTime camera. Given that FaceTime / Skype calls are such a common use case and rarely anyones uses external webcams anymore, why doesn't Apple use the existing camera system of the iPhone 11 for the MacBook?
Seriously, if I pay north of $4000 dollars for a laptop, why do I get an obsolete camera?
A phone camera is used to capture moments you want to preserve for posterity. A laptop camera is used for conference calls and no one needs to see all my facial flaws in 4K detail.
So, no, I don’t consider this in any way to be a dealbreaker.
So, no, I don’t consider this in any way to be a dealbreaker.
'Posterity' is a stretch? Snapchat would dispute that.
In fact, if a phone really wanted to take good pictures (and not just market 'megapixels') they'd have focus, light balance, shutter speed controls. About all they can do is take still portraits.
In fact, if a phone really wanted to take good pictures (and not just market 'megapixels') they'd have focus, light balance, shutter speed controls. About all they can do is take still portraits.
Snapchat is a terrible example; they don't actually use the camera to take pictures, they just take a screenshot of the camera on-screen view.
https://www.techjunkie.com/snapchat-compress-photo-quality/
https://www.techjunkie.com/snapchat-compress-photo-quality/
...and that's how people use their phone cameras. Very low-quality; very temporary.
Not everyone.
Snapchat has 170M daily users as of 2019.
And how many daily users do you think the Camera app has?
Not surprisingly so if you've worked with Android's Camera(2) APIs
> if a phone really wanted to take good pictures (and not just market 'megapixels') they'd have focus, light balance, shutter speed controls
Any high-end smartphone can manually control the focus, white balance, shutter speed and shoot RAW. On the iPhone you need a third-party app to access it, but plenty of Android devices include that in their default camera.
Any high-end smartphone can manually control the focus, white balance, shutter speed and shoot RAW. On the iPhone you need a third-party app to access it, but plenty of Android devices include that in their default camera.
I think you missed the point when you compared a $4000 laptop to a phone that tops out at $1,500 (which actually comes with 4 cameras)
Not at all. A laptop and a phone have different needs. I’m never, and I truly mean never, going to use a laptop to take a quality photo.
Why should Apple put a top of the line camera on it? Is the new Mac Pro worth less because it doesn’t have a camera at all?
Why should Apple put a top of the line camera on it? Is the new Mac Pro worth less because it doesn’t have a camera at all?
Just to be clear, I don't think Apple should put a back facing camera into their laptops. However, they should consider updating the FaceTime camera as it is regularly used by most people.
In that case why don’t they have a back facing camera with three lenses and a flash just in case someone wants to take a picture on vacation with their MacBooks? I guess they should also have an accelerometer, a gyroscope and a gps chip just in case I need to use it for directions....
cause they want them to buy an iPhone as well, and iCloud sync to the MacBook.
I guess this is more a rhetorical question as taking pictures with a back facing camera is an extreme^10 edge case while doing video calls with the FaceTime camera for most users is a daily or at least weekly occurrence.
It’s not that I don’t think the criticism is valid about the camera, it’s just the idea of saying it should have the same hardware as a phone
Why not? Apple sells ~200M iPhones a year, so they already are ordering millions of FaceTime cameras for the iPhones. Why not buy 10M more of the same model and put them in the MacBooks?
> no one needs to see all my facial flaws in 4K detail
Exactly. I would prefer a 200p camera.
Exactly. I would prefer a 200p camera.
Tack on a piece of mostly-transparent tape, to give your video calls that authentic softened look.
But that's what video post-processing is for. You can do all the touch-ups in real time in software.
> But that's what video post-processing is for. You can do all the touch-ups in real time in software.
Really? Which button do I click on Zoom or Hangouts or Skype to make that happen?
Really? Which button do I click on Zoom or Hangouts or Skype to make that happen?
Zoom has a “Touch up my appearance” setting https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/115002595343-Touch...
Don’t know about the other two.
Don’t know about the other two.
Reality comes at you fast! Their marketing for the feature was a bit dodgy, but overall it’s pretty smart. People will choose the conferencing software which presents them in the best light, and if you don’t think it matters, even subconsciously, to the people watching then you’re missing out on a potential advantage.
Such a wonderful slippery slope, but technology is disruptive that way.
Such a wonderful slippery slope, but technology is disruptive that way.
You tell the programs to use FaceRig as the camera input device, and FaceRig gets your actual camera input.
When doing user research (and I for one reason or another don't have other/better equipment around), I've used the MacBook as camera, mic, and screen recorder, when applicable (attaching a non-Apple mouse, of course, because those things are bonkers).
In these situations, a higher resolution camera wouldn't hurt. A better mic is higher priority though, so I'm happy to see that in the specs.
In these situations, a higher resolution camera wouldn't hurt. A better mic is higher priority though, so I'm happy to see that in the specs.
> A laptop camera is used for conference calls
And youtube videos.
I agree that 4K can be considered excessive, but 1080p would be the appropriate resolution in 2019 for a high end machine.
And youtube videos.
I agree that 4K can be considered excessive, but 1080p would be the appropriate resolution in 2019 for a high end machine.
I agree. 4K is not necessary but at least 1080p would be nice.
I think if you're the type of person that records youtube videos regularly, chances are you probably already own an external camera with specialized functionality.
What if you record YouTube videos sporadically?
Even then you likely want something better than a webcam, those cams are of such poor quality. Even if you get a Logitech C930 you're paying a lot for relatively little. They're not really meant (they certainly can be used for it though) recording as much as they are for streaming/conference purposes. Image quality there isn't nearly as important as it is for recordings. A cheap camcorder will likely give you a much better image quality. Or hell, get one of those LED rings that you can mount your phone in and you're better off.
How does that address the original point in anyway? This laptop's base price is almost $4000 USD. That's a lot of money to spend on a laptop and one would hope that it'd at least come with a decent webcam.
Judging by the number of upvotes it got, I'd say it addresses the original point rather well.
The laptop is already expensive. You want to make it even more expensive by adding a webcam that will undouactually cares about that kind of thing?
The laptop is already expensive. You want to make it even more expensive by adding a webcam that will undouactually cares about that kind of thing?
You can't unilaterally claim what people do or do not care about, though. That's reverse rationalization. A 720p webcam is however, objectively, third class in 2019.
Isn't the base price 2400?
At a $2400 price point. You should get a 1080p camera included regardless of your use. If you don't want that much detail on a webcam, you should have a setting to turn it down to 480p or something. But higher quality should the ceiling. Besides some people vlog and want that type of quality on facetime
At a $2,400 price point I expect a usable computer. I sincerely don't care about the camera - there's a 4K one in my pocket that interfaces instantly with my computer.
You can build a usable computer for $500, honestly anything above $1,000 with a camera should have a 1080p camera.
At a $2400, other users want high quality video. The computer should have the option for both audiences. Don't want high quality, fine just turn the setting down.
The Facetime camera isn't remotely at the quality level a 2019 laptop should have. Even the $400 Surface Go has a better quality camera.
> So, no, I don’t consider this in any way to be a dealbreaker.
There are plenty of premium and luxury laptops at that price point that have HD cameras, and they don't prevent you from running unauthorized software[1].
Even the Surface has better cameras.
[1] https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=09032019a
There are plenty of premium and luxury laptops at that price point that have HD cameras, and they don't prevent you from running unauthorized software[1].
Even the Surface has better cameras.
[1] https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=09032019a
> I don’t consider this in any way to be a dealbreaker.
Fair enough. But for some people it might be.
It is much more comfortable to perform video calls via laptop than via phone because a phone typically needs to be held in position manually. Therefore, I believe that most people would, if given a choice, prefer to use a laptop for video calls.
Also, people might actually want their video to have high resolution. For whatever reason. Even to show their facial flaws. Not providing them an option to do that, despite the fact that the required hardware is cheap and available, is an unnecessary restriction.
Finally, if a high resolution camera was included and someone would not want to use that high resolution, they can simply switch the camera to a lower resolution mode.
Fair enough. But for some people it might be.
It is much more comfortable to perform video calls via laptop than via phone because a phone typically needs to be held in position manually. Therefore, I believe that most people would, if given a choice, prefer to use a laptop for video calls.
Also, people might actually want their video to have high resolution. For whatever reason. Even to show their facial flaws. Not providing them an option to do that, despite the fact that the required hardware is cheap and available, is an unnecessary restriction.
Finally, if a high resolution camera was included and someone would not want to use that high resolution, they can simply switch the camera to a lower resolution mode.
For the pro line I would expect something I could just use to record video of me doing training or youtube reviews(at least in a crunch). I don't think it's too much to ask for at this price point. If I want to do the video editing it would be simple at times to use it for voice and video recording as well.
Cringe
It makes no sense. I use a $100 Logitech Webcam and _regularly_ get comments about how sharp and clear the video is, using Zoom.
There's value in a better camera, even in laptops.
There's value in a better camera, even in laptops.
Is there value beyond the compliments you receive?
(I apologize for this sounding snarky - I am genuinely curious)
(I apologize for this sounding snarky - I am genuinely curious)
Fair question, and I think yes! If you mainly do your meetings remotely (which I do), you want your interactions to be as high-bandwidth as possible.
There is value, and data, in real world interactions that is lost quickly in video calls. The lower latency, the higher the resolution and quality of the audio, the more you approximate a 'real' meeting.
This is way beyond baseline requirements for e.g. remote work, but it's _nice_, just as a slightly bigger screen is _nice_.
There is value, and data, in real world interactions that is lost quickly in video calls. The lower latency, the higher the resolution and quality of the audio, the more you approximate a 'real' meeting.
This is way beyond baseline requirements for e.g. remote work, but it's _nice_, just as a slightly bigger screen is _nice_.
Who would you prefer doing daily standups or long stretches of remote pair programming with?
The one with the low resolution, low contrast, washed out, low fps video that makes it hard to read emotion or even detect where his/her attention is?
Or the one with sharp features, pleasant colour rendition, high resolution, and maybe even a pretty bokeh in the background?
Humans love pretty pictures. See OKCupids[1] image analysis vs attractiveness for example. Shallow DOF = More attractive.
See also hanselman's[2] thoughts on the matter of having a high quality setup for remote work.
[1]: https://theblog.okcupid.com/dont-be-ugly-by-accident-b378f26... [2]: https://www.hanselman.com/blog/GoodBetterBestCreatingTheUlti...
The one with the low resolution, low contrast, washed out, low fps video that makes it hard to read emotion or even detect where his/her attention is?
Or the one with sharp features, pleasant colour rendition, high resolution, and maybe even a pretty bokeh in the background?
Humans love pretty pictures. See OKCupids[1] image analysis vs attractiveness for example. Shallow DOF = More attractive.
See also hanselman's[2] thoughts on the matter of having a high quality setup for remote work.
[1]: https://theblog.okcupid.com/dont-be-ugly-by-accident-b378f26... [2]: https://www.hanselman.com/blog/GoodBetterBestCreatingTheUlti...
Neither. We usually turn the cameras off to hide the fact that none of us got dressed that morning.
We turn all that off because inevitably someone starts saying: I can't hear you guys, it's coming in robot voice, can you turn off the screen/video share?
It sounds like they don't have adequate internet to be working from home.
From home? I'm trying to work from whatever airport I am at. Video isn't that important but solid audio really is needed.
Slightly offtopic - are there any webcams out there that can provide a shallow depth of field in realtime?
You can use a Black Magic Design Web Presenter which allows connecting 2 pro camera/lens setups via HDMI/SDI, and XLR mic inputs. It shows up as a USB webcam like normal.
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicwebprese...
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicwebprese...
Not any good one that does it in hardware out of the box that I know of. There are mod kits for CS lenses for c920/930/brio, if you can live with a tighter shot. If you've an compatible RX100/A6000 or similar laying around, then an Elgato Cam Link like hanselman's setup above might be the easiest option.
https://www.elgato.com/en/gaming/cam-link-4k (1/5 the price of the blackmagic device above/below)
There's also some software "solutions", but I've no idea how good they are, probably not iPhone portrait mode quality.
https://www.elgato.com/en/gaming/cam-link-4k (1/5 the price of the blackmagic device above/below)
There's also some software "solutions", but I've no idea how good they are, probably not iPhone portrait mode quality.
You can turn a Canon/Nikon DSLR into a webcam. Using SparkoCam.
So theoretically you can get a cheap old T3i + 50mm/1.8 and have a crazy good webcam with near-cinematic quality.
So theoretically you can get a cheap old T3i + 50mm/1.8 and have a crazy good webcam with near-cinematic quality.
>the low resolution, low contrast, washed out, low fps video that makes it hard to read emotion or even detect where his/her attention is?
This is totally disingenuous. We're not comparing a 120p camera to a 1080p camera. We're comparing a sharp camera with great color rendition to a slightly higher resolution of the same camera.
This is totally disingenuous. We're not comparing a 120p camera to a 1080p camera. We're comparing a sharp camera with great color rendition to a slightly higher resolution of the same camera.
I think the issue is that in most cases the problem isn’t the webcam, it’s the network that is carrying the stream.
When doing conference calls with clients and vendors. We have high quality cameras in our conference rooms for a reason.
This is for audio, not video, as it's my "thing", but for the past year I've been doing all my video interviews with a Shure SM57 mic plugged into a nice preamp, into a good interface, and they've all gone much better than phone interviews. No one's ever said "wait, could you repeat that?" or "You're breaking up a bit". There's something to be said for smoothing out conferencing so it makes it more lifelike, and I'd assume that's even more true for video.
Or put another way, can you find any high-profile Twitch streamers using their integrated webcam/mic?
Or put another way, can you find any high-profile Twitch streamers using their integrated webcam/mic?
I wish they would take advantage of the thickness of the panel to make a bigger camera with a bigger lens. I don’t care about resolution at all, but I suspect conference call image quality might increase dramatically if it the lens could gather double the light.
Same issue with the super weak bluetooth antennae in macbooks.
My iphone6's bluetooth antennae lets me walk all over the house while listening to something with my headphones (an essential modern experience!) while my $2000+ macbook pro will barely let me leave the room without losing connection.
Wifi antennae too. On bad internet, my laptop cannot even connect to a wap that my phone can, so I'll tether my phone to get internet.
I want my laptop to be a portable powerhouse of connectivity too!
My iphone6's bluetooth antennae lets me walk all over the house while listening to something with my headphones (an essential modern experience!) while my $2000+ macbook pro will barely let me leave the room without losing connection.
Wifi antennae too. On bad internet, my laptop cannot even connect to a wap that my phone can, so I'll tether my phone to get internet.
I want my laptop to be a portable powerhouse of connectivity too!
I don’t think Apple improved the front facing cameras on phones because of face time. I think it was because selfies became popular.
Perhaps better cameras would be thicker than screen currently has room for? I don’t really know how thick they would be.
Perhaps better cameras would be thicker than screen currently has room for? I don’t really know how thick they would be.
Camera quality is far from the biggest issue in videocalling. I can't even get the video to stream all the time at reduced resolution.
I wish I could downgrade my desktop camera to a 720p camera for the increased privacy of the narrower field of view.
Could it be a limitation in thickness? Laptop display assemblies are thin, which means you need a very small lens and as a result probably can only fit a very small sensor. There's a lot more room for camera modules in phones.
That’s my guess as well. If you look at ifixit’s iPhone 11 tear down, the selfie camera takes up almost the full thickness of the phone[1]. The lid of the MacBook is much thinner. People are mentioning the front facing cameras of the surface are better, but they have much more depth to work with. I’m still disappointed the camera res hasn’t improved for almost a decade now, but I suspect you’re right in that the thinness of the lid is the limiting factor.
[1] https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhone+11+Pro+Max+Teardown/1... BBC’s
[1] https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhone+11+Pro+Max+Teardown/1... BBC’s
Could be that they are not ready to support that amount of spike in traffic in their FaceTime services, so it's a way to limit it by not beefing up the cameras.
Most of that traffic is probably peer to peer (they use ICE), you only really need traffic relays for a few degenerative NAT cases.
When talking about a camera for video conferencing, having especial high resolutions does not matter. Having good quality 720p (sharp, little noise) is way better than having bad full HD. Even TV in 720p holds up pretty well on large screens as long as the source is good quality.
Unfortunately the cameras in Macbooks are not of the "good quality 720p" kind. They make blurry images with lots of noise, have poor low light performance, and the colors don't look right.
Facetime on iPhones is a lot better than Facetime on Macbooks
Facetime on iPhones is a lot better than Facetime on Macbooks
Going to join others by saying I wouldn't want a higher resolution, and would actually prefer no camera. I got a new Dell Latitude last year, that when speced out, is probably in line with the Macbook Pro lineup, and it has similar camera specs.
There's a lot of Good-Enoughism and Apple apologism in the responses to your question, even though you never said this was a deal-breaker. You are fairly asking why this particular corner was cut for costs, and it does seem a weird place to save a few bucks when, as you say, the price is ~$4,000.
For what it's worth, the front and rear cameras on Microsoft's Surface products are both high-quality and it's generally a pleasure to do video conferences with Surface users. As some others here have pointed out, it's not necessary to have a high-quality video stream—it's not necessary to have video at all—but it's a better user experience to have a more life-like image of the people you're speaking with. In a group conference in particular, the oddball with the low-resolution 720 web-cam does stick out, looking like a relic from 10 years ago. Especially with a high-fashion status symbol such as an Apple laptop, that's an awkward position to be in.
For what it's worth, the front and rear cameras on Microsoft's Surface products are both high-quality and it's generally a pleasure to do video conferences with Surface users. As some others here have pointed out, it's not necessary to have a high-quality video stream—it's not necessary to have video at all—but it's a better user experience to have a more life-like image of the people you're speaking with. In a group conference in particular, the oddball with the low-resolution 720 web-cam does stick out, looking like a relic from 10 years ago. Especially with a high-fashion status symbol such as an Apple laptop, that's an awkward position to be in.
>You are fairly asking why this particular corner was cut for costs, and it does seem a weird place to save a few bucks when, as you say, the price is ~$4,000.
Because the marginal cost of a better camera doesn't yield a sufficient increase in marginal revenue.
Because the marginal cost of a better camera doesn't yield a sufficient increase in marginal revenue.
I wonder what their models predicted as marginal revenue of the touchbar and butterfly keyboard mechanisms, and how that compared to their marginal cost.
There are the features a company "tries" to innovate on, vs those they consider uninteresting and just try to find a quality/cost balance.
Well, those are 2 of the 3 reasons I got a surface instead of a new MacBook when my 2013 finally died. Regular USB was the 3rd (and least important)
Maybe, but if I were designing this thing, both as an engineer or executive, it’d be a point of pride to me that the thing we advertise as the best laptop is actually the best laptop.
Especially if I know people are going to ask ‘wtf, why 720p’?
Especially if I know people are going to ask ‘wtf, why 720p’?
To be honest, I am also really surprised by the apologism and the creative possible reasons that people come up with (e.g. "Apple couldn't handle the traffic the increased resolution would cause"). But you're right, I didn't say it is a dealbreaker for me and it actually isn't. It is still very likely that I buy this machine - yet stuff like this bothers me, especially at the price point that Apple is commanding.
Imagine buying the top of the class Mercedes S-Class only to find out that the steering wheel is far worse than the ones that Mercedes uses in other models - you'd somehow feel cheated.
Imagine buying the top of the class Mercedes S-Class only to find out that the steering wheel is far worse than the ones that Mercedes uses in other models - you'd somehow feel cheated.
The number of Apple apologists on Hacker News is really jarring indeed. I don't think it's too much to expect a decent 1080p webcam on a ~$4000 USD laptop touted to be "the best notebook" and for professional use.
The number of Apple haters on Hacker News is also really jarring indeed.
One might accuse me of being the “apologist” you speak of (IDGAF), but if you’re correct we live in bubbles even here on HN, it’s much better and more honest if we don’t pretend the other doesn’t exist.
One might accuse me of being the “apologist” you speak of (IDGAF), but if you’re correct we live in bubbles even here on HN, it’s much better and more honest if we don’t pretend the other doesn’t exist.
Sure, there are probably Apple haters here too. Never said there aren't. But given that this is supposed to be a community of technically inclined people it's really bizarre to see people make incredibly silly excuses for a ~$4000 machine.
Steering wheel analogy seems a little too much, but how about an S-Class with a tiny rear-view mirror? You use it occasionally, and it is useable, but at that price you'd expect something a little better.
I would AT LEAST expect 1080p. That's a huge bummer in the year 2020, when even my phone can do 4K.
Conferences and Facebook livestreams just don't work with 720p :(
The camera is in the screen half of the laptop, which is thinner than your phone.
I envy your internet connection where the limiting factor is the quality of the camera and not the speed of your internet, which ends up compressing the video massively anyway.
They are probably not willing to sacrifice low-light performance and dynamic range for resolution. When you only have a few millimeters to work with, you can't make the sensor larger without making the lens wider, and no one wants a fish-eye for a web cam.
I suspect it is related to them pushing a much thinner bezel to squeeze in a 16" screen in a 15" chassis. If true, I'd happily accept that tradeoff since screen realestate is far more important to me than a jump from 720p to 1080p for my webcam.
I hadn't realised until you said that this is the same physical size as the 15" MacBook Pro. This is very cool.
I care very little about the webcam...
It's a fair point. If the camera were better, no one would be saying, "It's a great laptop, but the front facing camera, at 1080p, is excessive. I can't believe they did that." So I'm not sure why there are all these people trying to justify a low-res camera in these comments. :)
For a given sensor size, increased pixel density has to decrease low light performance, because each pixel will get less light. Since this camera will be almost exclusively used for online video confrerencing, frequently in low light, I bet it will lead to an overall better user experience.
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"The new Magic Keyboard also features a physical Escape key..." well that's what I call a feat.
Truly an innovation.
I got to the 3rd "the world’s best pro notebook" before I even finished the first sentence and gave up.
Where are my damn F-Keys?
OpenCL? Cuda?
Please tell me how I do proper GPU compute on a Mac.
Please tell me how I do proper GPU compute on a Mac.
Am I the only one that is scared at the prospect of losing physical keys for changing volume and brightness? I do this all the time, changing volume up/down during conference calls, adjusting the brightness when working late at night. Can you even map the Touch-bar to have "keys" for these instead of the slider which seems way less precise and direct? Genuinely asking since I'm still on 2014 MBP.
Yes you can have buttons to change volume and brightness. In fact the icons next to the slider are buttons you can tap to lower/increase volume/brightness. Or you can configure them to always show up as buttons without slider.
If you don't mind spending a few bucks on a third-party tool, Better Touch Tool (https://folivora.ai/) will let you map two or three finger swipe gestures to control volume and brightness. This lets you adjust either without having to look at the touch bar and find the virtual button. It's still a slide instead of a press though, which takes a little getting used to.
I'm completely with you. I have the older TouchBar model and every time I use the external Apple keyboard I am so much happier with the physical brightness, music controls and changing volume keys.
For me I'd actually pay to have a model without TouchBar (but with TouchID, which actually is really useful).
For me I'd actually pay to have a model without TouchBar (but with TouchID, which actually is really useful).
> Inverted-T arrow keys! A millimeter of key travel!
Which is still quite poor - Thinkpads offer between 1.3 to 1.9mm of travel depending on the model. It is surprising that a $1Trillion computer hardware company cannot design the best keyboard in the world while tiny Lenovo seems to have done much better.
Why would a "pro" user care more thinness and form than the usability of the primary input mechanism?
Add: It's not merely the travel. Lenovo keyboards are so slightly concave which offer perceivably better support for finger tips. The key surface also has a rougher texture instead of being flat, smooth and glossy, which I hope more manufacturers will emulate.
Which is still quite poor - Thinkpads offer between 1.3 to 1.9mm of travel depending on the model. It is surprising that a $1Trillion computer hardware company cannot design the best keyboard in the world while tiny Lenovo seems to have done much better.
Why would a "pro" user care more thinness and form than the usability of the primary input mechanism?
Add: It's not merely the travel. Lenovo keyboards are so slightly concave which offer perceivably better support for finger tips. The key surface also has a rougher texture instead of being flat, smooth and glossy, which I hope more manufacturers will emulate.
Well, from someone who's had to rely on his work-issued Thinkpad a lot over the last week... Thinkpad keyboard are complete crap. Those keys can travel all the way into a garbage can for all I care.
I have no idea if this new laptop's keyboard is any good, but it would have to take several steps back before you get to lenovo. One arrow key pops on and off as I use it. (This lappy is 4 months old and I've rarely done anything but remote into it so the keyboard should be pristine.) The escape key needs to be pressed extra hard -- beyond the "click" -- to register sometimes. Also, the right-click area on the trackpad expands and contracts mysteriously (best just to turn that off.)
I have no idea if this new laptop's keyboard is any good, but it would have to take several steps back before you get to lenovo. One arrow key pops on and off as I use it. (This lappy is 4 months old and I've rarely done anything but remote into it so the keyboard should be pristine.) The escape key needs to be pressed extra hard -- beyond the "click" -- to register sometimes. Also, the right-click area on the trackpad expands and contracts mysteriously (best just to turn that off.)
I like the macbook pro's keyboard out of the box. The low-travel clicking feels ideal to me, for maybe that first week.
Of course, my issue is that they have some sort of internal catastrophic process failure if they were able to release a keyboard that fails so consistently. It wasn't just bad design, it was a process that seemingly did zero testing behind some Apple employees typing "hello world" on a ground floor clean room and going "yep, seems good."
I look forward to see how the 16" MBP shakes out. I can believe that they redesigned the keys, but not that they fixed a gaping hole in their fundamental processes responsible for a dud keyboard that they had no idea how to fix.
Of course, my issue is that they have some sort of internal catastrophic process failure if they were able to release a keyboard that fails so consistently. It wasn't just bad design, it was a process that seemingly did zero testing behind some Apple employees typing "hello world" on a ground floor clean room and going "yep, seems good."
I look forward to see how the 16" MBP shakes out. I can believe that they redesigned the keys, but not that they fixed a gaping hole in their fundamental processes responsible for a dud keyboard that they had no idea how to fix.
It wasn't just the design or testing process that was bad, it was how they responded and it's ongoing. The four-year free keyboard replacement program is only temporary and was only put in place after many people paid for the expensive repair while Apple stayed silent then claimed it affected very few people.
Now that Apple has alternative hardware what they do next is very important - will they replace the lemons or spend the next decade claiming they're not responsible in court? Will the four year keyboard program be extended or are the 2016 MBPs almost junk already?
Now that Apple has alternative hardware what they do next is very important - will they replace the lemons or spend the next decade claiming they're not responsible in court? Will the four year keyboard program be extended or are the 2016 MBPs almost junk already?
Literally nothing about Lenovo even holds a candle. Every Lenovo I used is a cringeworthy piece of plastic hot trash that deserves to be in the garbage. Comparing it to MBP quality is absolutely laughable.
Have you used the ThinkPad X1, or the old-school X220/T420? Those can hold their own with the retina MacBook Pro (display quality notwithstanding), and I'd take any of them over the current-gen with the butterfly keyboard.
I have used the ThinkPad X1, it feels like a very cheap toy. Not hating, just saying...
Looks pretty good, I think I'll wait until the new microled displays though.
The thermal design updates are welcome, that was seriously crippling previous Macbook Pros.
I'd love to know how long and what clock rate the 8-core 16" MBP can sustain multi-core workloads running at 100% core utilisation. My guess is for a minute or so at 3.5ghz+.
The thermal design updates are welcome, that was seriously crippling previous Macbook Pros.
I'd love to know how long and what clock rate the 8-core 16" MBP can sustain multi-core workloads running at 100% core utilisation. My guess is for a minute or so at 3.5ghz+.
Man I really want to upgrade for that keyboard, but they don't have the early 2019 models on their trade in :(
Is there any hope of Apple including an Nvidia card in a future laptop or has that ship completely sailed?
For years, I have bemoaned the demise of the 17" MBP. 16" with small bezels is a worthy compromise. Thank you Apple.
I loved the marketing copy in the "New Magic Keyboard" section...
Wow! A physical escape key?!? A scissor mechanism?!? Will the innovation ever cease?!!?!
But more seriously, kudos to them for the full 180 fix.
(Well, I know some hate the existence of the Touch Bar, but I think it has very interesting potential which perhaps could be realized with its major fatal flaw finally fixed.)
Wow! A physical escape key?!? A scissor mechanism?!? Will the innovation ever cease?!!?!
But more seriously, kudos to them for the full 180 fix.
(Well, I know some hate the existence of the Touch Bar, but I think it has very interesting potential which perhaps could be realized with its major fatal flaw finally fixed.)
I wish it had one USB-A. I plug in a mechanical keyboard, and when a job provided the previous macbook pro, I managed to lose or break a dongle about once a month.
Yup, the lack of USB-A (and the removal of the ESC key) is the reason I stopped buying MacBooks after many enjoyable years of using the MBA11, 2 x MBA13, and the 2015 MBP13 (arguably the best laptop ever made). Every peripheral that I own is on USB-A. Adding USB-C is great, but why remove USB-A? I just don't get it.
Why remove the CD drive?
Why remove the floppy disk?
They did a cost benefit analysis and made that risk. There's usb-C to usb-A converters. It's not that big of a deal as it seems.
I have one device which is USB-C - a mouse. In what world is a mouse better with USB-C?
As for CD drives, the world moved on to bluray and that has a licensing cost as well as not fitting with the iTunes strategy of rent-and-never-own. Apple led, others followed. I'd still use it if it was built-in but not as an external: too much hassle to balance it on my lap and not drop the drive ruining the disk.
As for CD drives, the world moved on to bluray and that has a licensing cost as well as not fitting with the iTunes strategy of rent-and-never-own. Apple led, others followed. I'd still use it if it was built-in but not as an external: too much hassle to balance it on my lap and not drop the drive ruining the disk.
Well for one the connector is better. It's quicker to plug it in if you know you aren't going to plug it in the wrong way the first time. Second, for my wireless mouse the charging is faster. Third, the cable itself is slightly smaller and you don't need to carry around an old USB-A to USB-C cable.
It didn't seem like a big deal to me before I tried it, but it was since I couldn't keep from losing/breaking connectors. It gets annoying buying new ones all the time. I don't want to spend $2500 for a machine that annoys me.
Also the SD-card reader. That was a deal breaker for me, I use these as much as USB keys.
I use a laptop with a reader, the card is flush (not sticking out) and it's a great way of expanding storage. It's also the best way of getting photos out of digital cameras. Wireless is so much slower.
I use a laptop with a reader, the card is flush (not sticking out) and it's a great way of expanding storage. It's also the best way of getting photos out of digital cameras. Wireless is so much slower.
People make a lot of noise about the missing function keys. But the keys that I miss the most on my 2018 Macbook Pro are the "E" and "SHIFT" keys.
Is this a broken keyboard joke?
It's probably referring to the fact that the keyboards with butterfly keys fail a lot, with dust rendering some keys unresponsive.
For m, it's "" ad "" kys.
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I once saw a heat map of the Macbook Pro keyboard after a while in use. Heat spiked around WEASD location. Maybe it's where the CPU is located, but the extra heat could be why those keys always seem to be the ones that go (mine were s and d, and e sometimes). But you never know..this other Macbook Pro is from Mid-2014, and keys work fine.
Or lots of people playing FPSs on their MBPs?
I think the OP meant literal heat, as generated by the CPU or other internals.
Yes, but zelos suggests that the reason these keys are problematic might not be related to heat but due to them being used more.
I did mean actual heat, but the commenter's observation about WASD also probably contributes to why those keys in particular go bad. I don't know whether the heat source underneath them or the WASD gaming use is more of a factor though.
Seems unlikely given how bad Macs still are for gaming (and how expensive they are compared to other laptops which are better equipped for it.)
I don’t think “heat map” means what you think it means.
Makes sense if you thing about it. Which user cohort needs the lowest possible latency for keyboard input? Gamers. And which keys are the most used in games? WASD. So it’s logical that these keys would be the closest to the CPU to minimize signaling latency!
I donn't miss any keeys, somee eeveenn work twice as eefficieennt.
Dudeee, samee!!!
Agreeed
This freaks me out soo much
Wait til the CMD key loses responsiveness. Hate having to CMD+V multiple times to paste something. Maybe I should just reprogram the option key or go back to my old Mac where all the keys work flawlessly.
Just switch to vim keybindings
I have lost responsiveness in both my CMD key and the E key. Apple agreed to replace the front panel of my MBP for free, so at least there's that.
I also plan on getting it fixed, but from what I understand, Apple is putting the same keyboard in so the issue will just reappear after a few months.
For others who have the annoying keyboard issue being hinted at here (double key-press) and who, like me, can't be without their machine for weeks on end while they ship it off to get a new keyboard, I've been able to fix the issue by using Unshaky: https://github.com/aahung/Unshaky
The repair program in the US is currently on a <48 hour door-to-door turnaround. Still unworkable for some people, but you can get your laptop repaired in two days of PTO.
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Yeah. My "F" key broke in a way that isn't fixable without replacing the whole thing (one of the ultra tiny pins that keeps the keycap in place snapped off). At least you get two shift keys.
The arrow keys are the biggest pain point from me.
T and N went first for me
It's like a global monte carlo letter frequency measurement experiment
It's like a global monte carlo letter frequency measurement experiment
Wish they wouldn't call the display "immersive", especially with the knowledge that they're working on AR glasses.
John Gruber’s review
https://daringfireball.net/
And before everyone accuses him of being an Apple fanboy and biased, there is no disputing that he is very much a keyboard snob. He hated the last generation keyboard and he called it out during his initial review. He also famously still prefers an old ADB Apple Keyboard and he never bought a laptop with the old one.
He’s also linked to a lot of articles criticizing it.
If he praises it, I think you can trust him.
Edit:
And Marco Arment’s review. He’s never pulled punches when it comes to Apple’s hardware, their development tools, or the quality of the OS frameworks. He’s gushing over the review unit.
https://marco.org/2019/11/13/mbp16
https://daringfireball.net/
And before everyone accuses him of being an Apple fanboy and biased, there is no disputing that he is very much a keyboard snob. He hated the last generation keyboard and he called it out during his initial review. He also famously still prefers an old ADB Apple Keyboard and he never bought a laptop with the old one.
He’s also linked to a lot of articles criticizing it.
If he praises it, I think you can trust him.
Edit:
And Marco Arment’s review. He’s never pulled punches when it comes to Apple’s hardware, their development tools, or the quality of the OS frameworks. He’s gushing over the review unit.
https://marco.org/2019/11/13/mbp16
Also, the dude loves keyboards, he hated text editor controls so much he freaking invented Markdown.
The issue with the keyboard is whether it's good after a month or more of use, not how good it is fresh out of the box.
I thought the previous macbook pro felt great for a week out of the box. Then switches started breaking and keycaps started coming off within the first three months.
In fact, the issue seemed to be that it feeling good out of the box was the only testing Apple did on it.
I thought the previous macbook pro felt great for a week out of the box. Then switches started breaking and keycaps started coming off within the first three months.
In fact, the issue seemed to be that it feeling good out of the box was the only testing Apple did on it.
True.
But neither Gruber nor Marco Arment [1] liked it out of the box. Marco did buy one - he buys everything. You can listen to his review on the latest Accidental Tech Podcast.
[1] just for those who don’t know, Arment is probably one of the best known indie IOS developers and the creator of Instapaper and the first developer for Tumblr.
But neither Gruber nor Marco Arment [1] liked it out of the box. Marco did buy one - he buys everything. You can listen to his review on the latest Accidental Tech Podcast.
[1] just for those who don’t know, Arment is probably one of the best known indie IOS developers and the creator of Instapaper and the first developer for Tumblr.
That Daring Fireball link just goes to the main page. Here's a permalink to Gruber's first impressions: https://daringfireball.net/2019/11/16-inch_macbook_pro_first...
I've waited for this for so long
Is there any way to know if this will support a 5K monitor at dot-by-dot resolution..?
The photos in the article do show the physical escape key but do not show the sides of the laptop where the ports would be. I hope that it has a MagSafe charge adapter and an HDMI port.
> MagSafe charge adapter
we all want that, but apparently its not coming back
we all want that, but apparently its not coming back
no, just usb-c
Then you'll be just as disappointed as I am. This thing comes with 4 USB-C ports and an audio jack. That's it.
I'm guessing you're trolling, but just in case not, or for anyone else who doesn't want to look at Apple's web page:
It's four USB-C/thunderbolt ports, two on each side, and a head-phone jack.
BTW, magsafe is an optimization from a bygone era when you had to keep your laptop plugged in while using it. You can now (generally) leave your laptop unplugged as you use it and stow it somewhere out-of-the way to charge when you aren't. Like your phone or tablet. Magsafe is nice, but probably not worth it now that you don't need to routinely charge your laptop in a vulnerable position. And, of course, USB-C is very easy to plug in.
It's four USB-C/thunderbolt ports, two on each side, and a head-phone jack.
BTW, magsafe is an optimization from a bygone era when you had to keep your laptop plugged in while using it. You can now (generally) leave your laptop unplugged as you use it and stow it somewhere out-of-the way to charge when you aren't. Like your phone or tablet. Magsafe is nice, but probably not worth it now that you don't need to routinely charge your laptop in a vulnerable position. And, of course, USB-C is very easy to plug in.
It would be ideal if Apple could figure out a way to make a magnetic USB-C port. At the end of the day, the USB-C cable brings much convenience but it is loose and constantly comes out, just slightly to lose the charge.
Around the world thousands of vim users rejoice over the physical esc key.
Is it just me, or does the touch bar remind anyone else of the MS Word Ribbon?
Those full sized arrows on current 15” MacBooks were driving me crazy! It’s great to see them put half sized left and right arrows back! I’ll Definitely b buying it
It's about time. Looks like they incorporated a lot of feedback.
Still buying refurbrished 2015 model.
The best escape key ever!
Why has Apple gone with Touch ID on Macs, while moving to Face ID on iOS devices?
Is there some technical reason why Face ID isn't a good fit? I can't see cost being an issue, nor physical space for the sensor.
Is there some technical reason why Face ID isn't a good fit? I can't see cost being an issue, nor physical space for the sensor.
Can't wait for the 2021 MBP where the keys are even higher in action akin to the 2011 MBPs, and the full Function Key row is restored.
I've been holding onto my 2015 MacBook pro now for ages, waiting and waiting.
I'd like to see the touchbar disappear completely, and the function keys return - but the real escape key and no butterfly keyboard is enough of a change that I think I can finally buy another MacBook!!
It was definitely off the cards for a few years there, and I was starting to wonder what I was going to do!
I'd like to see the touchbar disappear completely, and the function keys return - but the real escape key and no butterfly keyboard is enough of a change that I think I can finally buy another MacBook!!
It was definitely off the cards for a few years there, and I was starting to wonder what I was going to do!
> The new Magic Keyboard also features a physical Escape key
Hallelujah!!
Hallelujah!!
Wow! The "New Magic Keyboard." I wonder what it is. Oh, wait, it's the old scissor keyboard. "Largest Retina display ever." With 226ppi... But the Esc key is back! I'm so excited! /s
It's hilarious to me that their own marketing image has two dongles plugged into the laptop so that the user can still use USB.
Apple please for the love of usability: please give me back USB. I AM the pro that you want to feature in every one of your marketing videos. I have a music studio in my house, I build interactive lighting installations for the biggest music festivals in the world, I build custom hardware controllers for fire effects that travel all over the country, I travel around the world teaching people how to build hardware devices, and when home I spend the majority of my time teaching and building software that people love; I use my laptop for over 10 hours a day.
All of this stuff uses USB. ALL OF IT. Having to carry around stupid dongles all the time is the biggest pain in my ass when I'm trying to do all of this stuff. PLEASE give me back USB, you can even call it the "stupid loser old crappy loser lame macbook for loser non pros". I don't care. This nonsense minimalist sleek design stuff is actually harming my productivity.
Apple please for the love of usability: please give me back USB. I AM the pro that you want to feature in every one of your marketing videos. I have a music studio in my house, I build interactive lighting installations for the biggest music festivals in the world, I build custom hardware controllers for fire effects that travel all over the country, I travel around the world teaching people how to build hardware devices, and when home I spend the majority of my time teaching and building software that people love; I use my laptop for over 10 hours a day.
All of this stuff uses USB. ALL OF IT. Having to carry around stupid dongles all the time is the biggest pain in my ass when I'm trying to do all of this stuff. PLEASE give me back USB, you can even call it the "stupid loser old crappy loser lame macbook for loser non pros". I don't care. This nonsense minimalist sleek design stuff is actually harming my productivity.
Things change, deal with it. I've swapped USB cables to USB-C cables. Only USB drives, which i rarely use anymore require an adapter. Meanwhile, I can use all 4 ports to:
- Run a display
- Charge my laptop
- Charge a phone
- Connect a drive
I can even use a single port to both charge the laptop and run a screen with multiple USB devices attached to it.
I now need to daisy chain converters to use my PS/2 mouse on my MacBook Pro though, so that's a bit of a hassle.
Also, I can use the same charger and dongles for my work notebook, which is Windows based. I wish every new thing was USB-C, because I love it.
(This is a copy of a previous comment, because I feel it is relevant again.)
- Run a display
- Charge my laptop
- Charge a phone
- Connect a drive
I can even use a single port to both charge the laptop and run a screen with multiple USB devices attached to it.
I now need to daisy chain converters to use my PS/2 mouse on my MacBook Pro though, so that's a bit of a hassle.
Also, I can use the same charger and dongles for my work notebook, which is Windows based. I wish every new thing was USB-C, because I love it.
(This is a copy of a previous comment, because I feel it is relevant again.)
> Things change, deal with it
Things do change, but change for the sake of change isn't a good thing.
Meanwhile, I can use all 4 ports to: - Run a display With a dongle
- Charge my laptop Did you need 4 ports to do this? How is this better than a magsafe connector?
- Charge a phone Existing USB ports do this fine, and most charger cables have USB-A on one end. USB-C-USB-C cables are extremely limited in their use and are more expensive.
- Connect a drive Again, no advantage over USB-A
Apple has "solved" non-existent problems and in exchange they've created a whole new slew of problems. Why should I have to replace all my existing cables to work with a computer? It's because Apple is designing for slim cases above all else. (So slim and delicate that resting my hand on the case while typing causes random keypresses).
I broke an early macbook screen by tripping over the charging cable. When they made the switch to magsafe cables it was to explicitly prevent this very common occurrence. They traded trip-proof laptops for the ability to plug your charger into 4 different ports. What possible advantage could that offer?
Things do change, but change for the sake of change isn't a good thing.
Meanwhile, I can use all 4 ports to: - Run a display With a dongle
- Charge my laptop Did you need 4 ports to do this? How is this better than a magsafe connector?
- Charge a phone Existing USB ports do this fine, and most charger cables have USB-A on one end. USB-C-USB-C cables are extremely limited in their use and are more expensive.
- Connect a drive Again, no advantage over USB-A
Apple has "solved" non-existent problems and in exchange they've created a whole new slew of problems. Why should I have to replace all my existing cables to work with a computer? It's because Apple is designing for slim cases above all else. (So slim and delicate that resting my hand on the case while typing causes random keypresses).
I broke an early macbook screen by tripping over the charging cable. When they made the switch to magsafe cables it was to explicitly prevent this very common occurrence. They traded trip-proof laptops for the ability to plug your charger into 4 different ports. What possible advantage could that offer?
> Charge my laptop Did you need 4 ports to do this? How is this better than a magsafe connector?
Being able to charge on either side is really, really nice. I miss MagSafe, sure, but this mostly makes up for it. I can also run my laptop off the ubiquitous USB-C battery packs now, which is glorious.
USB-C-USB-C are going to be much more ubiquitous too, especially when the iPhone switches next cycle.
Being able to charge on either side is really, really nice. I miss MagSafe, sure, but this mostly makes up for it. I can also run my laptop off the ubiquitous USB-C battery packs now, which is glorious.
USB-C-USB-C are going to be much more ubiquitous too, especially when the iPhone switches next cycle.
Here’s your magsafe solution, it took seconds to find:
https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Charging-Compatible-Interfac...
Oh good, another attachment to buy.
it’s $23, available online with free next day in most cases. further the massive downside to the old magsafe adapters is how proprietary they were and that they were soldered to the brick. if one frayed on you, as they did all the time, all you could do is go to the apple store. if you travel for work this becomes a massive liability. if this cable cost $100, was useless on other devices and you didn’t have to carry a usb-c cable in the first place then i can see your point. but when you buy a $3000+ laptop then complain about a $30 cable then it becomes hard to take you seriously.
You can also use one USB-C to both charge your Macbook and drive a powerful 4k monitor plus a few extra USB-A ports on the back of the monitor.
Being able to come to work and plug in a single cord and have it drive my mechanical keyboard, headphone amp, monitor, and power is pretty amazing IMO.
Being able to come to work and plug in a single cord and have it drive my mechanical keyboard, headphone amp, monitor, and power is pretty amazing IMO.
But that would still be possible if they added a USB-A to the laptop.
Like the original iMac eliminating SCSI, DIN-8 serial and ADB for USB-A, the point of removing old ports is to ensure support for the new ones. Local pain, long term gain. (Uh, once they sort out the many flavors using the USB-C form factor.)
All of those ports were already on the decline because their replacements already existed and were better. Every one of those ports existed on a machine with its replacement at some point.
Apple never made a machine with both USB-C and USB-A. They never allowed for a transition.
Because of that, people aren’t moving forward because they are holding back upgrades.
Apple never made a machine with both USB-C and USB-A. They never allowed for a transition.
Because of that, people aren’t moving forward because they are holding back upgrades.
>>Being able to come to work and plug in a single cord and have it drive my mechanical keyboard, headphone amp, monitor, and power is pretty amazing IMO.
Just imagine having a dock, and not needing to plug any cords :-)
Also, like most things Apple removed (I'm looking at you, 3.5mm), how has the removal enabled your use case?
To put it other way: you could have everything you outlined even if they had magsafe + USB-A
but with removal of those things, we can't have things we want/need/desire, for no appreciable gain to you.
Just imagine having a dock, and not needing to plug any cords :-)
Also, like most things Apple removed (I'm looking at you, 3.5mm), how has the removal enabled your use case?
To put it other way: you could have everything you outlined even if they had magsafe + USB-A
but with removal of those things, we can't have things we want/need/desire, for no appreciable gain to you.
After 4yrs of using USB-C I don't have any USB-A stuff besides a single microsd card reader for an DSLR camera. Otherwise I have no use for a USB-A.
If I did I have two tiny adapters in my drawer... my office has a few of them if anyone needs them but I've never seen them used there either.
If I did I have two tiny adapters in my drawer... my office has a few of them if anyone needs them but I've never seen them used there either.
So you're saying you only need one USB-C port... whereas the Macbook Pro has 4 and not a single USB-A one.
At work I've only used one.
At home I bought a 2 pack of USB-C to USB-A the size of a quarter and never had a problem... only because I don't want to buy a new SD-card reader. But now even my external harddrive is USB-C (and incredibly fast/tiny at that) I almost never use them.
https://www.amazon.com/Upgraded-Basesailor-Compatible-Charge...
I really don't get what the big deal is. A $9 purchase which I now use less and less as more products adopt USB-c...
At home I bought a 2 pack of USB-C to USB-A the size of a quarter and never had a problem... only because I don't want to buy a new SD-card reader. But now even my external harddrive is USB-C (and incredibly fast/tiny at that) I almost never use them.
https://www.amazon.com/Upgraded-Basesailor-Compatible-Charge...
I really don't get what the big deal is. A $9 purchase which I now use less and less as more products adopt USB-c...
I have this exact setup on the Thinkpad in front of me. It is great, and it's hilarious to see my phone's lockscreen pop up on the screen when I end up charging it with that cable.
You know what else this laptop has? Two ports I don't recognize (thunderbolt and dock?) on the left, and on the right, two USB-A, ethernet, SD card reader, HDMI, and headphone jack. It's a false dichotomy to say that you can only get the one-port connection by throwing away all the other ports you might need.
You know what else this laptop has? Two ports I don't recognize (thunderbolt and dock?) on the left, and on the right, two USB-A, ethernet, SD card reader, HDMI, and headphone jack. It's a false dichotomy to say that you can only get the one-port connection by throwing away all the other ports you might need.
No one made that dichotomy, idk who you guys are arguing against.
If you don’t want Apple products cool. I personally have no need for Ethernet, sd card readers, and USB A 24/7. Like I said elsewhere this is a non problem for me.
Obviously if it is for you you can buy a giant dell laptop with 20 ports.
If you don’t want Apple products cool. I personally have no need for Ethernet, sd card readers, and USB A 24/7. Like I said elsewhere this is a non problem for me.
Obviously if it is for you you can buy a giant dell laptop with 20 ports.
I agree that it would be nice if everything were USB-C, including my 2019 iPhone XS, which I connect to my 2017 MBP with a third-party adapter.
You could just use a lightning to usb-c Apple-cable instead ...
No need for an adapter.
If Apple had provided me the cables to connect the current generation of their two products to each other, I would use them.
It seems that Apple's hand-holding doesn't go far enough for some customers :-)
I’m not sure you understand. Shouldn’t the people who want to plug their new iPhone into their new laptop be less inconvenienced when those products are all from Apple, not more inconvenienced? People with modern Thinkpads could use their iPhone out of the box while those with MBPs could not.
If Apple can’t be bothered, what a strange thing to blame me for.
If Apple can’t be bothered, what a strange thing to blame me for.
I don't blame anyone. I just find you amusing.
The current generation "Pro" line iPhones ship with lightning to USB C cables that connect to the current generation "Pro" line MacBooks.
Read my other comment. They do ship USB C to lightning cables on the newest iPhones.
Things change. I still have FireWire cables and external drive enclosures.
Things change. I still have FireWire cables and external drive enclosures.
The new AirPods Pro come with lightning to USB-C. If the new phones aren't USB-C, they'll definitely have USB-C to lightning at least. Although realistically it'll be USB-C to USB-C (see iPad Pro)
My wife just got an iPhone Pro Max. The cable was a lightning to USB C cable and the charger has a USB C port only.
I’d bet money Apple will move to USB C iPhones at some point. HN would go crazy considering all the negativity around any Apple announcement.
I’d bet money Apple will move to USB C iPhones at some point. HN would go crazy considering all the negativity around any Apple announcement.
I agree with the ridiculousness of it all, but to be fair, there is no such thing as a 2019 iPhone XS. It's a 2018 iPhone XS regardless of when it was purchased or manufactured, although that honestly just makes your situation even more ridiculous.
> Things change, deal with it.
Other companies have dealt with change better than Apple. For example, I can buy a professional tier laptop from Microsoft or Lenovo with plenty of USB ports, while Apple's reaction to change has been to ignore their professional users' use-cases.
Other companies have dealt with change better than Apple. For example, I can buy a professional tier laptop from Microsoft or Lenovo with plenty of USB ports, while Apple's reaction to change has been to ignore their professional users' use-cases.
Then go and buy one of those laptops. Use what works for you.
Just because you’re not a fan of it doesn’t mean it isn’t a solid solution for the rest of us. And the rest of us mostly like having change forced on us — it means we’re progressing forward instead of shouting at clouds for being in the way of the sun.
Just because you’re not a fan of it doesn’t mean it isn’t a solid solution for the rest of us. And the rest of us mostly like having change forced on us — it means we’re progressing forward instead of shouting at clouds for being in the way of the sun.
You're repeating the OP's "deal with it" sentiment. I'm sharing how other companies have dealt with it, and offer similar professional tier laptops with more USB ports.
Sure. So buy those laptops?
I'm not having a go at you directly, I'm having a go at the idea that it's constructive to even point out how a piece of hardware doesn't solve a problem for you and that there are others options. We know.
I'm not having a go at you directly, I'm having a go at the idea that it's constructive to even point out how a piece of hardware doesn't solve a problem for you and that there are others options. We know.
> I'm having a go at the idea that it's constructive to even point out how a piece of hardware doesn't solve a problem for you
I'm going to have to disagree, the lack of USB ports doesn't solve a problem. It's just a limitation that doesn't affect you, but certainly affects other professionals and their ability to do their jobs efficiently.
I'm going to have to disagree, the lack of USB ports doesn't solve a problem. It's just a limitation that doesn't affect you, but certainly affects other professionals and their ability to do their jobs efficiently.
movedx(1)
>Just because you’re not a fan of it doesn’t mean it isn’t a solid solution for the rest of us.
Leaving out USB-A ports isn't a solution for you though, it's just a limitation that affects some people but not you.
>And the rest of us mostly like having change forced on us — it means we’re progressing forward instead of shouting at clouds for being in the way of the sun.
This just stinks of fanboyism, any time Apple makes a big hardware change like removing the headphone jack from iPhones, it's mostly negative voices disliking the change. The heat eventually dies down and people adapt, but it's revisionist history to imply people like having the change forced on them at the time.
Leaving out USB-A ports isn't a solution for you though, it's just a limitation that affects some people but not you.
>And the rest of us mostly like having change forced on us — it means we’re progressing forward instead of shouting at clouds for being in the way of the sun.
This just stinks of fanboyism, any time Apple makes a big hardware change like removing the headphone jack from iPhones, it's mostly negative voices disliking the change. The heat eventually dies down and people adapt, but it's revisionist history to imply people like having the change forced on them at the time.
> Leaving out USB-A ports isn't a solution for you
USB-C is faster than USB-A. Eventually all technology becomes obsolete and it's time to move on. Removing USB-A and forcing me to switch to USB-C is helping me adopt a technology that is popping up everywhere.
I believe modern smart phones now charge via USB-C? A colleague in work also has a power brick that can charge his laptop via USB-C.
USB-C is here and we'll only move over to it if we start implementing it. Use an adapter if you're not in a position to swap out A->C for a while.
> This just stinks of fanboyism ...
And this is just a shallow insult, hence why you've been down voted.
> ... like removing the headphone jack from iPhones ...
Which other manufacturers immediately did too.
> ... but it's revisionist history to imply people like having the change forced on them at the time.
The iceberg is melting. The cheese is being moved. It's time to change and for the better. It's easier to be comfortable and complacent, but that's not how reality works.
I don't want to research and keep up with the latest in IO technologies. I trust Apple to make good choices for me so I can get on with solving problems. That works out for me in a positive way far more than it impacts me negatively.
I'll continue with a (roughly) five year cycle for upgrading my MBP and a two year cycle for my iPhone. And I'll continue to trust that Apple's engineers are smarter than me and are making intelligent choices for me.
You're free to not trust them and do as you wish.
EDIT: In fact I'm actually finding it annoying how most new devices are USB-C and I don't have USB-C on my 2014 MBP. I want USB-C as power bricks, HDDs, pen drives, and more, are switching over (because it's the right then to do). Very soon I will be obsolete and you'll be telling me I need to move on...
USB-C is faster than USB-A. Eventually all technology becomes obsolete and it's time to move on. Removing USB-A and forcing me to switch to USB-C is helping me adopt a technology that is popping up everywhere.
I believe modern smart phones now charge via USB-C? A colleague in work also has a power brick that can charge his laptop via USB-C.
USB-C is here and we'll only move over to it if we start implementing it. Use an adapter if you're not in a position to swap out A->C for a while.
> This just stinks of fanboyism ...
And this is just a shallow insult, hence why you've been down voted.
> ... like removing the headphone jack from iPhones ...
Which other manufacturers immediately did too.
> ... but it's revisionist history to imply people like having the change forced on them at the time.
The iceberg is melting. The cheese is being moved. It's time to change and for the better. It's easier to be comfortable and complacent, but that's not how reality works.
I don't want to research and keep up with the latest in IO technologies. I trust Apple to make good choices for me so I can get on with solving problems. That works out for me in a positive way far more than it impacts me negatively.
I'll continue with a (roughly) five year cycle for upgrading my MBP and a two year cycle for my iPhone. And I'll continue to trust that Apple's engineers are smarter than me and are making intelligent choices for me.
You're free to not trust them and do as you wish.
EDIT: In fact I'm actually finding it annoying how most new devices are USB-C and I don't have USB-C on my 2014 MBP. I want USB-C as power bricks, HDDs, pen drives, and more, are switching over (because it's the right then to do). Very soon I will be obsolete and you'll be telling me I need to move on...
And you can’t compare an Apple to anything non-Apple. So as far as Apple laptops go, USB-C, adaptor or forget it. You can get adaptors so small you barely notice them. I’d rather have 4 USB-C ports than 3 because they scrapped the bandwidth of one to put in a old port. Most people keep apple laptops for years, and I doubt we’ll be using standard USB much longer
> And you can’t compare an Apple to anything non-Apple.
There are plenty of professional users doing just that.
For example, I can get my job done on a Lenovo just as well as on a Macbook, until I need to plug in a USB peripheral. Then, I can do my job better on the Lenovo than the Macbook.
There are plenty of professional users doing just that.
For example, I can get my job done on a Lenovo just as well as on a Macbook, until I need to plug in a USB peripheral. Then, I can do my job better on the Lenovo than the Macbook.
and for the rest of the world where windows is a hinderance you can’t compare them. As a pro user i barely plug anything into my laptop now, just one usb-c cable connects my monitor, charger, keyboard / mouse (usb, not bluetooth) and gives me a few more usb ports. in fact this is better because i can shove my laptop in a pocket behind the monitor and not take up room.
every time apple changes someone people who don’t even use apples come out of the woodwork to complain.
every time apple changes someone people who don’t even use apples come out of the woodwork to complain.
Having 4 USB-C's is a bit like having 4 Ferraris. Sometimes you need something a bit more practical. People will still be using USB-A for the next 10 years. Having to use a dongle for USB-A on a 16" macbook is pretty ridiculous. There's still a billion USB-A accessories out there and will be for a long time. Apple jumped the gun in a major way. This wasn't like dropping the floppy disc or CD-rom drive considering how small the USB-A port is.
> People will still be using USB-A for the next 10 years.
Possibly. But they'll be using it for the next 100 if no one ever removes it from anything.
Possibly. But they'll be using it for the next 100 if no one ever removes it from anything.
If people actually started using electronics for 100 years instead of throwing them out every few years, that would be fantastic. It would also be a very radical departure from the status quo and I don't think it a likely scenario, so rest easy I guess..
While it may be fun to try to design something that lasts s hundred years and that people will want to use in a hundred years, who would want to sell it?
The floppy drive died because a better option came out. If USB-C is truly better, than all new accessories would use it.
There needs to be a transition period where everyone has USB-C and USB-A so that the peripherals can naturally move to the better technology.
Right now I've never seed a good USB-C to USB-A converter. I work at a lot of conferences, and any time a speaker comes with a new MacBook and a USB adaptor, it's a disaster. They all suck.
There needs to be a transition period where everyone has USB-C and USB-A so that the peripherals can naturally move to the better technology.
Right now I've never seed a good USB-C to USB-A converter. I work at a lot of conferences, and any time a speaker comes with a new MacBook and a USB adaptor, it's a disaster. They all suck.
They removed USB-A about a year before they should have, but now the industry has moved on. We can talk about it as a mistake in the past, but it would be wack to put USB-A back onto these devices.
How can we say "the industry has moved on" when the second piece of media on the linked announcement page has someone doing music production with a visible USB-C -> USB-A dongle connecting some rack-eared music gear. There's even a second dongle on their left that I don't recognize. I long for the C-only future, but we're not there yet. Apple's decision to go C-only always seemed to be an aesthetic one to me.
That was true last year.
This year, it's been smooth sailing at every conference so far.
This year, it's been smooth sailing at every conference so far.
I literally dealt with a broken hub last week. I have no idea what you’re talking about.
That's been my experience: at every conference I've talked at this year (three so far: ESUG, Macoun and SPLASH, heise MacDev still coming up in December), I plug in my USB-C equipped MacBook Pro and It Just Works™.
Only one of those was an Apple-specific conference.
Sorry your experience is still different. Mine was, too, a year ago.
Only one of those was an Apple-specific conference.
Sorry your experience is still different. Mine was, too, a year ago.
I'm not sure I see the problem - if it works and people are happy why not?
There are still devices currently that use floppy disks.
The only accessory I have that uses hardwired USB-A is my Logitech C920 webcam. All other stuff has a detachable cable. I will just change the USB-A to (Micro)USB-B cable to USB-C to (Micro)USB-B
The USB A port is very large compared to USB C. Especially in terms of volume.
On a Macbook Air, maybe, but they can definitely fit one on a 16" device.
While sacrificing something else. Battery, speakers, thermal management, or aesthetics would have to traded off for USB A to be included. Not worth it for an outdated port whose function can be duplicated by an inexpensive adapter.
Again, on a small device, yes every mm matters. On a 16" devices, the slightly bigger connector isn't going to make a difference.
I agree.
As the guy who gave up my laptop( MacBook pro 2015) in a meeting to project because the 2 other MacBooks in the meeting only had usb c and the presentation was on a usb a stick.
At least they got the projector using usb c with a dongle now..
Nothing like having choices. Why my new personal machine was a linux based laptop.
As the guy who gave up my laptop( MacBook pro 2015) in a meeting to project because the 2 other MacBooks in the meeting only had usb c and the presentation was on a usb a stick.
At least they got the projector using usb c with a dongle now..
Nothing like having choices. Why my new personal machine was a linux based laptop.
If you were Apple's only user, you might have a point. But you're not.
Music professionals, video professionals, photographic professionals, and plenty of other professionals all have collections of USB peripherals which aren't going to be updated any time soon - either because there are no USB-C replacements, or because a complete replacement program might easily run to four figures, edging up to five for some users, and in extreme cases will be as high as six.
Some of these people tour or travel a lot. Having to rely on dongles - which can be lost, or stolen, or which may stop working for random reasons - is very much not a good idea.
Telling these professionals to "deal with it" is unhelpfully obtuse.
Music professionals, video professionals, photographic professionals, and plenty of other professionals all have collections of USB peripherals which aren't going to be updated any time soon - either because there are no USB-C replacements, or because a complete replacement program might easily run to four figures, edging up to five for some users, and in extreme cases will be as high as six.
Some of these people tour or travel a lot. Having to rely on dongles - which can be lost, or stolen, or which may stop working for random reasons - is very much not a good idea.
Telling these professionals to "deal with it" is unhelpfully obtuse.
I think this person was saying to replace the cables, not replace the peripherals or use dongles.
Yup. I DJ and use cameras all the time, so I'm not just a guy checking his Facebook. I swapped cables and have zero issues now. For every cable type there's now a USB-C equivalent for cheap on Amazon or Aliexpress. People just want to find something to complain about.
Edit: Before anyone mentions that ‘now you need to bring cables’...When I DJ I always bring a bunch of spare cables anyway, because I don't what to rely on the location for providing me what I need. So I did this with my old mac too. Nothing changed except the type of cable.
Edit: Before anyone mentions that ‘now you need to bring cables’...When I DJ I always bring a bunch of spare cables anyway, because I don't what to rely on the location for providing me what I need. So I did this with my old mac too. Nothing changed except the type of cable.
maybe they should be complaining to the peripheral manufacturers rather than Apple. USB C is better and a major player going all in is the only way to get the industry to switch.
Speaking as one of those people, dongles don't bother me in the least. You're absolutely right that many peripherals are prohibitively expensive to update just for a connector, but they're also bulky and usually already involve lots of other cabling, so adding a dongle really doesn't make a big difference. Plus we're all used to having dongles just to hold license data anyway (thanks, Pro Tools), not to mention the menagerie of adapters that have been a way of life for decades in the audio world.
> Things change, deal with it
That argument can be used to explain away any problem.
4 usb ports are massively redundant. Even if someone loves usb-C having a usb-A port will add a lot of usability without compromising on anything else.
That argument can be used to explain away any problem.
4 usb ports are massively redundant. Even if someone loves usb-C having a usb-A port will add a lot of usability without compromising on anything else.
I liked charging and connecting displays from both sides.
What I didn’t like was that over three or four of the Apple USB-C to hdmi/usb-a/whatever the last one was (thunderbolt?) and one third party adapter I never found one that wasn’t super choppy with my input.
So my Webcam would stutter, and my keyboard would suddenly repeating the same key 12 times (admittedly making for a pretty exciting experience with ViM).
Very frustrating. It may have been my computer. Don’t think I’d heard of others with the same issues in my workplace. But really made working a PITA sometimes for me.
Meanwhile my 2015 MBP did just fine with the same hub through switch setup, so it was most likely the USB C hardware driver in the Apple Laptop.
What I didn’t like was that over three or four of the Apple USB-C to hdmi/usb-a/whatever the last one was (thunderbolt?) and one third party adapter I never found one that wasn’t super choppy with my input.
So my Webcam would stutter, and my keyboard would suddenly repeating the same key 12 times (admittedly making for a pretty exciting experience with ViM).
Very frustrating. It may have been my computer. Don’t think I’d heard of others with the same issues in my workplace. But really made working a PITA sometimes for me.
Meanwhile my 2015 MBP did just fine with the same hub through switch setup, so it was most likely the USB C hardware driver in the Apple Laptop.
I think it's key you have 4 ports. I think the very small number of ports and requirement of dongles in order to get enough ports (and lack of USB-C hub) perpetuates USB.
If you have 1 or 2 USB-C ports odds are you'll need a dongle. Since the only USB-C dongles don't multiply ports, it'll have multiple USB ports. If you had a lot of USB-C ports, you'd likely get adapters and switch to USB-C as you upgraded things. Now, unless you can switch to wireless, you basically have to replace it with a USB device.
If you have 1 or 2 USB-C ports odds are you'll need a dongle. Since the only USB-C dongles don't multiply ports, it'll have multiple USB ports. If you had a lot of USB-C ports, you'd likely get adapters and switch to USB-C as you upgraded things. Now, unless you can switch to wireless, you basically have to replace it with a USB device.
> I now need to daisy chain converters to use my PS/2 mouse on my MacBook Pro though, so that's a bit of a hassle.
Out of curiosity, what PS/2 mouse do you use?
Out of curiosity, what PS/2 mouse do you use?
I take it you mean specifically USB-A? I can understand that, but I think I'd be satisfied if they would just put more than four USB-C ports on the thing. That should be the upside of a smaller USB connector, give me a dozen ports since dang near everything uses USB these days.
I think it is to be expected by Apple to remove 2 of those 4 in the next generation, or one afterwards. It's a logical (to them) step towards cable-free computing, which is great and all, but is the only way towards it forcing it through the customers?
iPhones 8, X, XR, XS, 11 and 11 Pro have all supported wireless charging but retain the wired charging capability. I don’t think they are incredibly eager to eliminate ports if they don’t gain something from it (thinness, battery life, space for something else, or water resistance for example).
Well, the refreshed 13-inch already only has two ports.
And it replaced another model that had two Thunderbolt ports. The higher-end 13" MacBook Pros have four ports.
My 2003 12" PowerBook had 2 x USB-A ports, 1 x FireWire 400 port, and 1 x mini-DVI port.
My 2008 13" MacBook Aluminum Unibody had 2 x USB-A ports, and 1 x mini-DisplayPort.
My 2014 15" MacBook Pro has 2 x USB-A, 2 x mini-DisplayPort-style Thunderbolt ports, and 1 x HDMI.
If you want a massive amount of built-in ports, then a MBP has never been your go-to device ...
My 2008 13" MacBook Aluminum Unibody had 2 x USB-A ports, and 1 x mini-DisplayPort.
My 2014 15" MacBook Pro has 2 x USB-A, 2 x mini-DisplayPort-style Thunderbolt ports, and 1 x HDMI.
If you want a massive amount of built-in ports, then a MBP has never been your go-to device ...
I think they are limited to 4 by available PCIe lanes since they are thunderbolt ports. It would a a confusing mess if they added more ports but only gave them USB 3.1 capability
They could switch them. It's unlikely that you need thunderbolt at 4 ports at the same time. On the other hand, 4 universally usable ports are already a lot. They might not cater for the long tail. Less than 4, and it's not only the tail you are cutting off.
What type of ports are you using that require USB-A on the laptop end? Pretty much every port I know of has a USB-C cable for it, no dongle necessary. Since 2016 I've slowly gotten USB-C-to-Lightning, USB-C-to-micro USB, USB-C-to-HDMI cables, etc. I gave away most of my USB-A to friends.
Almost every mouse and keyboard released in the last 20 years?
If you need a hardwired mouse, keyboard, and power cable, presumably monitor as well - why aren't you just leaving those hard wired to a dock with a single usb-c connection to the laptop?
If you're talking about using a keyboard and mouse while mobile, I have no idea why you'd be using wired instead of bluetooth...
If you're talking about using a keyboard and mouse while mobile, I have no idea why you'd be using wired instead of bluetooth...
I can't stand lag, inconsistent connections, or changing batteries, and with the exception of Airpods, every interaction I've had with Bluetooth devices leads me to believe the whole category of hardware is generally one big dumpster fire. So instead I toss a basic $20 wired logitech mouse into my bag, and it performs flawlessly every time I pull it out.
If you're just tossing it in your bag, why not keep one of these permanently attached to the the USB end?
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71jtrs-Na%2...
That's what I do with the cable I use with my ancient Garmin cycling GPS.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71jtrs-Na%2...
That's what I do with the cable I use with my ancient Garmin cycling GPS.
Yeah, I'm generally fine with that for that one example.
But the bigger problem is that I like being able to use friends' mice if I find myself without one, jack HDMI into my laptop for random conference room projectors (my MBP has HDMI out, it is frequently used), etc. I can carry around adapters/dongles, but I have multiple bags, and adapters don't always come with when I'm throwing my laptop into the bag I'm using that day. So the chances that I'll have something I want to use and can't because I just don't have the adapter on me are pretty high. This is a problem I never have on my 2013 13" MBP because of the port selection, but that I will if I don't change behavior if I get this 16" MBP (which I'm seriously considering).
But the bigger problem is that I like being able to use friends' mice if I find myself without one, jack HDMI into my laptop for random conference room projectors (my MBP has HDMI out, it is frequently used), etc. I can carry around adapters/dongles, but I have multiple bags, and adapters don't always come with when I'm throwing my laptop into the bag I'm using that day. So the chances that I'll have something I want to use and can't because I just don't have the adapter on me are pretty high. This is a problem I never have on my 2013 13" MBP because of the port selection, but that I will if I don't change behavior if I get this 16" MBP (which I'm seriously considering).
I've observed that sentiment applied to innumerable interfaces for decades. Interfaces change. The change is painful, but moves us forward to better.
Interfaces change, but making the switch too early makes it needlessly painful. I mean, how does it make sense that Apple's own iPhone and iPad don't plug directly into Macbooks without a dongle?
I mean, why stop there? Apple could just go to zero ports and force everyone to use Wi-Fi peripherals. They could sell a wi-fi peripheral hub for backwards compatibility. Then they could get rid of the power port and use inductive charging. That would make for an insanely sleek machine, even if it were insanely painful to use.
I mean, why stop there? Apple could just go to zero ports and force everyone to use Wi-Fi peripherals. They could sell a wi-fi peripheral hub for backwards compatibility. Then they could get rid of the power port and use inductive charging. That would make for an insanely sleek machine, even if it were insanely painful to use.
They've moved to wireless where it makes sense, like with Audio and WiFi (for most).
But in many other cases, due to latency issues and such (like displays), USB serves really well.
But in many other cases, due to latency issues and such (like displays), USB serves really well.
Dongle? Just use a USB-C/Lighting cable. Having the right cable has never been considered odd.
And even that's optional. I never plug my iPhone into my MacBook, because everything syncs seamlessly via "the cloud"; only use Lightning cable for charging, and I'm looking forward to dumping even that when I upgrade to a Qi-enabled iPhone in a couple months. Yes, I look forward to "zero ports".
The only need for cables at this point is high-power/high-bandwidth/high-security applications. Qi doesn't deliver 60 watts, and my employer overloaded the security so I have to use a Lightning/USB-C cable for debugging ... so I'm happy to have 4 tiny identical ports that do the job.
And even that's optional. I never plug my iPhone into my MacBook, because everything syncs seamlessly via "the cloud"; only use Lightning cable for charging, and I'm looking forward to dumping even that when I upgrade to a Qi-enabled iPhone in a couple months. Yes, I look forward to "zero ports".
The only need for cables at this point is high-power/high-bandwidth/high-security applications. Qi doesn't deliver 60 watts, and my employer overloaded the security so I have to use a Lightning/USB-C cable for debugging ... so I'm happy to have 4 tiny identical ports that do the job.
> How does it make sense that Apple's own iPhone and iPad don't plug directly into Macbooks without a dongle?
There is no real need to plug an iPhone or iPad into your MacBook though.
There is no real need to plug an iPhone or iPad into your MacBook though.
How else am I going to get my photos off my iPhone without uploading them to Apple's cloud service? Even their KB tells you to connect it via USB: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201302#importmac
Why the "without"?
$10/mo (for 2TB) and the photos are promptly backed up, and transferred to your Mac. Full-res, backed up remotely, stored locally. Deliberate transfer becomes "already there".
$10/mo (for 2TB) and the photos are promptly backed up, and transferred to your Mac. Full-res, backed up remotely, stored locally. Deliberate transfer becomes "already there".
I don't want my data in the hands of any cloud service. I'm sure theirs works well between all their products for you and many others, but it's just not for me. :)
Airdrop, for one. I don't think I've ever plugged my iPhone into my Mac.
> Apple's own iPhone and iPad don't plug directly into Macbooks without a dongle?
The newest gen of iPhones come with C to Lightning rather than A to Lightning now. Because that's also the requirement for USB-PD fast charging for the iPhone and Macbook. They've also sold the cables separately for the last two years for the USB-PD fast charging.
The newest gen of iPhones come with C to Lightning rather than A to Lightning now. Because that's also the requirement for USB-PD fast charging for the iPhone and Macbook. They've also sold the cables separately for the last two years for the USB-PD fast charging.
My ipad Pro plugs directly into my macbook Pro without a dongle.
I can easily plug any USB device into my MacBook with a cable. I cannot however plug a firewire, thunderbolt or HDMI cable into a USB-A port. Yes I need to purchase different cables, but they are relatively cheap compared to something like a laptop docking station that I might need otherwise.
> I cannot however plug a firewire, thunderbolt or HDMI cable into a USB-A port.
I tried to plug my firewire into my USB-C port and it didn't work. Help!
I tried to plug my firewire into my USB-C port and it didn't work. Help!
You can run FireWire over usb-c form factor.
I think the long game here is that USB will shift towards USB-C. Plenty of new Windows devices have USB-C ports, and it's only a matter of time until peripheral manufacturers transition over and the old USB ports become useless.
The standard was adopted by IEC in 2016. How many years more do you reckon we should live "in the future" and use dongles because "one day we won't have to"?
I'm already living this future. I've replaced my usb-a, micro-usb, mini-usb, and lightning products. It's wonderful for travel, decluttering, and not having to worry about dongles.
That's pretty nice - but people who need to interface with a wide variety of devices in their line of work, or don't know upfront what the situation in the field will require don't have that luxury. So instead using a laptop with minimal 3 standard ports (USB-A, USB-C, HDMI), they have to carry dongles that get lost, bent, stop working etc...MBP is simply not a "pro" machine - it's a mainstream consumer machine that looks fancy on the desk instead of being functional. And that would be totally great if it was called "Macbook" and there was a "Macbook Pro", with ports, battery life, cooling, keyboard etc...
The long game may trend towards USB-C, but in the meantime Apple made the Macbook Pro less usable for people who want to do actual work. How is it better to have to manage a bag full of dongles when Apple easily could've included the ports that people frequently use like SD and USB-A?
It was a bad decision 2 years ago when they introduced this generation of Macbook Pros, and it's still a bad decision.
It was a bad decision 2 years ago when they introduced this generation of Macbook Pros, and it's still a bad decision.
>Apple made the Macbook Pro less usable for people who want to do actual work
That's straight up nonsense. You can still do everything you could do with a USB-A port. I'm also in the full USB-C camp and any of my old USB-A devices just use a USB-C to USB-A cable. I am in no way hindered from doing actual work.
That's straight up nonsense. You can still do everything you could do with a USB-A port. I'm also in the full USB-C camp and any of my old USB-A devices just use a USB-C to USB-A cable. I am in no way hindered from doing actual work.
I just carry a small Anker USB-C hub in my laptop case -- has two USB-A ports, an HDMI port, and an SD card reader. I must say, though, I've used it less than I expected to when I got it.
The point is not that you can't do those things, the point is that it's been made more difficult for little to no discernible benefit.
Apple has been going down this path of making thinness such a high priority that utility has become a second class citizen. So yeah I can carry around dongles for everything, but why? So the side of my MacBook Pro can have pleasing congruity in it's ports?
It is good that Apple has moved towards a standard port rather than just slapping 4 Thunderbolts on there. But the loss of HDMI, USB a, and sd card slots makes for more hassle with little upside, not to mention they did away with magsafe.
At least they fixed the keyboard and upgraded memory in a bug way, so maybe things are headed in the right direction now.
Apple has been going down this path of making thinness such a high priority that utility has become a second class citizen. So yeah I can carry around dongles for everything, but why? So the side of my MacBook Pro can have pleasing congruity in it's ports?
It is good that Apple has moved towards a standard port rather than just slapping 4 Thunderbolts on there. But the loss of HDMI, USB a, and sd card slots makes for more hassle with little upside, not to mention they did away with magsafe.
At least they fixed the keyboard and upgraded memory in a bug way, so maybe things are headed in the right direction now.
>the point is that it's been made more difficult for little to no discernible benefit
That is not true either. Although it cost me some money, I much prefer having 1 type of port to worry about instead of a million types and it has tremendously improved some of my workflows by being able to daisy-chain devices together. I can sit down at my desk, plug in 1 cable and have access to everything I need. Although I had a similar setup with a dock, I was limited to the number of ports. With the current system, I can keep extending and daisy-chaining to my heart's desire.
Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for anyone just like my use case doesn't work for everyone either. To say that there's no discernible benefit is just silly. There are pros and cons just like with anything.
>carry around dongles for everything
That's a straw man. I don't carry any dongles with me whatsoever except for a multi-purpose video adapter because I still, unfortunately, have to present in a few rooms that have VGA outputs.
That is not true either. Although it cost me some money, I much prefer having 1 type of port to worry about instead of a million types and it has tremendously improved some of my workflows by being able to daisy-chain devices together. I can sit down at my desk, plug in 1 cable and have access to everything I need. Although I had a similar setup with a dock, I was limited to the number of ports. With the current system, I can keep extending and daisy-chaining to my heart's desire.
Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for anyone just like my use case doesn't work for everyone either. To say that there's no discernible benefit is just silly. There are pros and cons just like with anything.
>carry around dongles for everything
That's a straw man. I don't carry any dongles with me whatsoever except for a multi-purpose video adapter because I still, unfortunately, have to present in a few rooms that have VGA outputs.
How would it make your life worse if in addition to the usb-c ports there was a sd card port and usb-a? Does switching away from magsafe make it more likely or less likely for the MacBook to get accidentally pulled to the floor?
I'm not saying that no one will find usb-c useful or that it works for no one's workflow.
I'm saying that going all usb-c doesn't provide much, if any benefit. They could've given you your usb-c ports and included the other ports.
If it works for you, great. The problem is that they could've made it work for a lot more people, but they chose not to in their Don Quixote-like chase for thinness and aesthetics.
I'm not saying that no one will find usb-c useful or that it works for no one's workflow.
I'm saying that going all usb-c doesn't provide much, if any benefit. They could've given you your usb-c ports and included the other ports.
If it works for you, great. The problem is that they could've made it work for a lot more people, but they chose not to in their Don Quixote-like chase for thinness and aesthetics.
That's what they said about ADB to USB, USB to Micro-USB, Micro-USB to USB-C. Once everyone settles on USB-C, some new thing will come out that necessitates yet another port change. So much for "Universal".
I'm the opposite so I guess our desires cancel each other out. I will never buy a laptop or any device that has USB-A on it. None of my devices use USB-A and it's a legacy port that is ugly and wastes space. Same with micro-usb, mini-usb, lightning, etc. I'm living a 1 port lifestyle and it's phenomenal for traveling, minimalism, and just not having to worry about having the right cable in the right place.
Same here. I love using just one charger and cable for my laptop, tablet, game console, headphones, and more. I’ll never go back to USB-A.
Even Apple still sells keyboard and mice with an USB-A port for charging...
Which ones? The Magic Mouse and Keyboards have lightning ports on them.
On one end of the cable yes, the other end has a USB-A connector.
same with their phones.
If you know walk out of a mac store with a new laptop and a phone you can't charge the phone from the laptop...
Apple decided that their laptops are not power supplies. Is that so wrong? I need a single portable computer because it's expensive and has my data. I don't need a single dedicated portable supply.
There's an easy and inexpensive solution if USB-A is such a big deal to you. Leave a USB-C to A adapter on all of your devices.
what is easy and inexpensive about that solution? that's easily the most inconvenient and expensive solution I have come across
An adapter is $4 and is reusable when you trash the device or the cable breaks. How many devices do you have?
I'm the opposite. All of my stuff uses USB-C except my MBP. It seems finally I can upgrade that as well. I hate bringing my MBP charge whenever I travel.
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That sounds like a super cool job, may I ask how did you started?
Find people doing cool stuff and keep showing up and offering to help until they let you.
Basically my background is software (like everybody else here), but around 2009 or so that started bleeding into hardware via arduino/hackerspaces.
And then that bled into doing some consulting work on large advertising installations (building motor control software for robots, building interfaces etc. Some of the stuff I've worked on has been for SXSW,comic con, and the super bowl).
I got lucky in meeting some really cool people doing really cool stuff at burning man, and they eventually let me help on some lighting and fire effects control stuff. That group then eventually morphed into a group that is also building things for music festivals, and when custom stuff needed to get built for it, I was somebody who could help, and so I got to.
As far as the travelling stuff: that was something a friend of mine was doing, but when she wasn't able to go on a trip, she connected me with her employer, which then led to more jobs etc.
But yeah, basically show up and be nice to people. Offer to help a lot.
Basically my background is software (like everybody else here), but around 2009 or so that started bleeding into hardware via arduino/hackerspaces.
And then that bled into doing some consulting work on large advertising installations (building motor control software for robots, building interfaces etc. Some of the stuff I've worked on has been for SXSW,comic con, and the super bowl).
I got lucky in meeting some really cool people doing really cool stuff at burning man, and they eventually let me help on some lighting and fire effects control stuff. That group then eventually morphed into a group that is also building things for music festivals, and when custom stuff needed to get built for it, I was somebody who could help, and so I got to.
As far as the travelling stuff: that was something a friend of mine was doing, but when she wasn't able to go on a trip, she connected me with her employer, which then led to more jobs etc.
But yeah, basically show up and be nice to people. Offer to help a lot.
Any tips on finding hackerspaces, online or IRL? Particularly in regards to art installations. It's something that's been on my mind recently :)
Do you have a blog or anything like that? I'd really love to read more about your work.
One nice thing about not having a billion ports that can all fail is that now most long term interface failures will happen on easily replaceable dongles. I guess the downside is that the port that connects all the dongles failing is probably really really bad. So you would have to hope that is at least beefed up.
If you listen closely, you'll probably hear my eyes rolling all the way from Seattle.
I too connect a bunch of devices via USB to my laptop (minus the brag). The problem was that there were so many devices, I never had enough ports so I had to use a hub anyway. Then graduated to a docking station and carried my hub around with me in my electronics bag.
So I just bought an USB-C hub (as the docking station already had USB-C). I stopped using flash drives years ago, I have USB-C YubiKeys now so as a proficient user of multiple devices, I really don't feel any pain because of this..
I too connect a bunch of devices via USB to my laptop (minus the brag). The problem was that there were so many devices, I never had enough ports so I had to use a hub anyway. Then graduated to a docking station and carried my hub around with me in my electronics bag.
So I just bought an USB-C hub (as the docking station already had USB-C). I stopped using flash drives years ago, I have USB-C YubiKeys now so as a proficient user of multiple devices, I really don't feel any pain because of this..
Great, so I need to take on an extra ~$100 USD to use a flash drive. Brilliant.
for peasants still using USB-A flash drives, yes (not if you buy USB-C flash drives). You will pay the peasant fee. My mac is sitting in a docking station with USB-peasant ports 70% of the time so that's that.. I also don't really do flash drives anymore because of this whole internet thing. Also, the laptop costs more than 2 grand. Is $100 too much for you?
$4 for an adapter.
If Apple cared about what its users thought about cables, they never would have replaced MagSafe with the wretched USB-C. Interestingly, if you want a MagSafe-like charger now, you have to buy a Surface...
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Except for devices which have a hardwired cable, you can get USB-C to USB-whatever and nearly all, if not all, professional equipment I know of does not have hardwired cables. So in the worst case, you need to replace your cables and in the best case, you now have four direct ports, more than any portable Mac has had since the transition to USB-C. And for the cases where the connection must be USB-A adapters are small and reliable.
If you haven't used a USB-C/Thunderbolt-3 notebook, being able to go from portable to charging, full size monitor, peripherals, external storage, etc. with one cable is a welcome change.
Apple's commitment to supporting legacy ports (albeit through adapters) is pretty good, in my experience. As an anecdote, I needed to get some data off of an old Firewire 400 hard drive and linked Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2, Thunderbolt 2 to Firewire 800, Firewire 800 to 400 cable into the drive and it mounts like it would on a direct connection.
If you haven't used a USB-C/Thunderbolt-3 notebook, being able to go from portable to charging, full size monitor, peripherals, external storage, etc. with one cable is a welcome change.
Apple's commitment to supporting legacy ports (albeit through adapters) is pretty good, in my experience. As an anecdote, I needed to get some data off of an old Firewire 400 hard drive and linked Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2, Thunderbolt 2 to Firewire 800, Firewire 800 to 400 cable into the drive and it mounts like it would on a direct connection.
No, USB-C is a step in the right direction. It's superior in every way imaginable to USB. It can handle almost every type of transfer (data/power), its orientation-agnostic, it's slim, etc. I could list the pros for days.
Having to deal with dongles for a couple years while the rest of the market catches up isn't a reason to push against the best port standard in decades.
Having to deal with dongles for a couple years while the rest of the market catches up isn't a reason to push against the best port standard in decades.
Yeah, we’ve been saying that for what, four years now? Time to face facts. Usb-A isn’t going anywhere.
Type-A has completely disappeared from my life and that of my family's.
Micro-USB is still clinging on but those will fade out within the next 2-3 years.
Additionally, four years is a laughably short period of time to measure Type-C's adoption, but even given that, I would love to see actual usage data for, say, American adults.
Micro-USB is still clinging on but those will fade out within the next 2-3 years.
Additionally, four years is a laughably short period of time to measure Type-C's adoption, but even given that, I would love to see actual usage data for, say, American adults.
> Type-A has completely disappeared from my life and that of my family's.
I'm honestly surprised by this. I have eight different type A devices plugged into my PC right now[1] and I don't own a single type C device (and it's not that I've intentionally avoided it).
As for the rest of my family, I don't think any of them have computers that'd even have a Type C port. Mine has just one, and it's brand new.
[1] Keyboard, mouse, external audio interface, printer, scanner, iLok dongle, external HDD, flash drive.
----
Edit: Valid point made in the replies that 50% of these could have their cables replaced to do USB-C at one end.
Cable could be replaced: External audio interface, printer, scanner, External HDD.
Cable not replaceable: Keyboard, mouse, iLok dongle, flash drive.
I'm honestly surprised by this. I have eight different type A devices plugged into my PC right now[1] and I don't own a single type C device (and it's not that I've intentionally avoided it).
As for the rest of my family, I don't think any of them have computers that'd even have a Type C port. Mine has just one, and it's brand new.
[1] Keyboard, mouse, external audio interface, printer, scanner, iLok dongle, external HDD, flash drive.
----
Edit: Valid point made in the replies that 50% of these could have their cables replaced to do USB-C at one end.
Cable could be replaced: External audio interface, printer, scanner, External HDD.
Cable not replaceable: Keyboard, mouse, iLok dongle, flash drive.
Those mostly aren't "type-A devices". The connector is not the protocol. Except for those physically integrated into a type-A connector, those are mostly USB-2/3 devices that generally ship by default with a cable that includes a type-A connector at one end and a type-B or mini/micro-B at the other.
I too have an external audio interface, a printer, scanner, and external HDD, and they are all connected via USB cables that have a type-C connector at one end and the relevant B subtype at the other. These are now cheap and ubiquitous. My keyboard is lightning to USB-C, and my mouse is bluetooth. As for flash drives, I buy the double-ended ones these days.
The adapters I still use are for an older U2F dongle that is physically integrated into a type-A connector, which is due for retirement later this year, and a Thunderbolt display.
So the writing isn't just on the wall for USB Type-A connectors in my household, they're basically gone.
As for what happens to all the cables with type-A connectors that shipped by default, those are in my travel kit for device charging off wall-warts or vehicles that often still have type-A sockets.
I too have an external audio interface, a printer, scanner, and external HDD, and they are all connected via USB cables that have a type-C connector at one end and the relevant B subtype at the other. These are now cheap and ubiquitous. My keyboard is lightning to USB-C, and my mouse is bluetooth. As for flash drives, I buy the double-ended ones these days.
The adapters I still use are for an older U2F dongle that is physically integrated into a type-A connector, which is due for retirement later this year, and a Thunderbolt display.
So the writing isn't just on the wall for USB Type-A connectors in my household, they're basically gone.
As for what happens to all the cables with type-A connectors that shipped by default, those are in my travel kit for device charging off wall-warts or vehicles that often still have type-A sockets.
USB-A right now:
1. My keyboard
2. My mouse
3. My webcam
4. My headset
5. My BT Dongle (which my BT headset won't actually pair with, thus #4)
6. Wi-Fi adapter
7. Xbox 360 controller
Now that is my desktop, my laptop is USB-C, with a dock plugged into the port. Said dock only has 2 USB devices plugged in, wireless adapter for my Mouse/Keyboard, and my headset.
None of this counts the many USB-A charging cables. I have USB-A to Lightning, USB-A to Micro, and USB-A to USB-C, all currently in use. I also have a single USB-C to USB-C adapter.
1. My keyboard
2. My mouse
3. My webcam
4. My headset
5. My BT Dongle (which my BT headset won't actually pair with, thus #4)
6. Wi-Fi adapter
7. Xbox 360 controller
Now that is my desktop, my laptop is USB-C, with a dock plugged into the port. Said dock only has 2 USB devices plugged in, wireless adapter for my Mouse/Keyboard, and my headset.
None of this counts the many USB-A charging cables. I have USB-A to Lightning, USB-A to Micro, and USB-A to USB-C, all currently in use. I also have a single USB-C to USB-C adapter.
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Maybe we just have to accept that people have different usage profiles. Personally I don’t have a single USB peripheral that is USB-C beyond simply charging. But I have many many devices that are USB-A, micro USB, HDMI, etc. A laptop that has USB-C, USB-A, and HDMI is significantly more useful to me than one which only has USB-C. I own all the adapters but I don’t always remember to bring everything with me, so even given my multi hundred dollar investment in adapters I often have trouble connecting with things. And as far as replacing all my peripherals with USB-C peripherals, those tend to be more expensive, and also my desktop computer does not support USB-C so I would basically need a separate set of everything. USB-C is undoubtably a better port in many technical ways, but for practical purposes it really doesn’t hold up against the ports it replaced in real life.
Do you and your family exclusively use laptops and phones manufactured after 2017 without any external peripherals? Because it's still hard to find USB-C on anything else. Even some of Apple's own devices still cling to lightning.
Sure, some motherboards, peripherals, and displays have type-C ports, but they're still very much the exception.
Sure, some motherboards, peripherals, and displays have type-C ports, but they're still very much the exception.
I see it as a wealth level thing. People will still be buying $30 Canon printers at Walmart with USB-B ports and USB-A flash drives in 20 years. Not everyone buys their entire family the newest, most expensive hardware every 2 years. It'll be ages before USB-C and USB 3 hardware becomes as cheap as the massively produced USB-A/B and USB 2 hardware.
Luckily dongles/adapters are cheap.
A printer with a USB-B port can be plugged into a USB-C port. Only the cable needs to change, not the printer. After buying my Macbook with 4 USB-C ports I simply replaced the cables for the various devices, and I almost never need to use any adapter/dongle at all.
I actually do have a digital piano with Type-B, and use a B-to-C cable as well, no adapter needed.
> Type-A has completely disappeared from my life and that of my family's
This might be true for end users, but in my electronics work, I don't see even a single USB-C device around me, and I'm looking at about ~50 devices right now around my desk (dev boards/kits, logic analyzers, interfaces, accessories, microscopes, oscilloscopes, and other equipment).
USB-C only is perhaps fine on consumer laptops, but these are supposedly the more capable "Pro" machines, for, well, pros.
This might be true for end users, but in my electronics work, I don't see even a single USB-C device around me, and I'm looking at about ~50 devices right now around my desk (dev boards/kits, logic analyzers, interfaces, accessories, microscopes, oscilloscopes, and other equipment).
USB-C only is perhaps fine on consumer laptops, but these are supposedly the more capable "Pro" machines, for, well, pros.
I mostly agree with you, especially on devices like phones where there's a single port, but here, there's 4 ports. Even if you use it for charging and two displays, you can still manage to put one USB-A in there. If you really like symmetry, maybe two of each. Unfortunately, Apple's obsession with uniformity and clean design would never let them do such a thing, even if the diversity would be objectively better here.
It's decidedly inferior in its lack of hubs. If you don't have enough USB-C ports, you're SOL (and given I have a 2-port macbook pro, I feel this acutely).
I've been using a macbook with one USB C port happily for a few years. When I need more ports, I use the multiport dongle:
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MUF82AM/A/usb-c-digital-a...
What more do you need?
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MUF82AM/A/usb-c-digital-a...
What more do you need?
What if you have to plug two or three usb-c devices?
I have a usb-c monitor connection, and of course the usb-c charger - so any third device requires unplugging one of those. In my case that's a usb-c yubikey. That dongle gives me an hdmi port I can't use (HDMI on the 13" pro can't drive a 34" monitor) and a usb-a port I can't use (I was good and got usb-c perpherals!).
I can't sum it up in any other way than to say it's a user-hostile decision.
They should at a minumum have included a few choice dongles with the system. (usb-c to usb-a, and maybe usb-c to HDMI)
Additionally, they should have completed the ecosystem too. a mac-to-mac upgrade requires a dizzying variety of dongles, where one firewire cable was all that was required in previous systems.
They should at a minumum have included a few choice dongles with the system. (usb-c to usb-a, and maybe usb-c to HDMI)
Additionally, they should have completed the ecosystem too. a mac-to-mac upgrade requires a dizzying variety of dongles, where one firewire cable was all that was required in previous systems.
I still remember when the MBP included a VGA-DVI adapter and a remote control.
USB-C is not superior in every imaginable way. And at least as embodied as a Thunderbolt 3 carrier, there are at least two.
There is no such thing as a USB-C hub. The protocol doesn't support it. That's one really concrete way that USB-C is inferior. I think I heard rumors that the proposed replacement fixes that, but Thunderbolt 3+USB-C is inferior that way.
It's also easier to snap off. That's two. Yes, it's better in a lot of objective ways, but there are also non-imaginary ways in which it's a pretty substantial compromise.
Maybe we should do a longbet on whether you're willing to talk smack about T3 once T4 hardware comes out. Because I bet you will.
There is no such thing as a USB-C hub. The protocol doesn't support it. That's one really concrete way that USB-C is inferior. I think I heard rumors that the proposed replacement fixes that, but Thunderbolt 3+USB-C is inferior that way.
It's also easier to snap off. That's two. Yes, it's better in a lot of objective ways, but there are also non-imaginary ways in which it's a pretty substantial compromise.
Maybe we should do a longbet on whether you're willing to talk smack about T3 once T4 hardware comes out. Because I bet you will.
> There is no such thing as a USB-C hub.
I didn't believe you, then I went and checked.
https://www.cnet.com/news/usb-4-will-resurrect-those-useful-...
Apparently all the hubs that have multiple USB-C ports are running USB 2 over them, or you can just use them for power delivery.
I am suddenly very happy that none of my other devices except for my USB-C hub, actually uses USB-C, I'd be limited to the ports that came on the computer!
Thunderbolt docks can do it, they just run multiple USB controllers on board, one for each port, but indeed, it USB-C 3.1 as it stands today doesn't support hubs.
I didn't believe you, then I went and checked.
https://www.cnet.com/news/usb-4-will-resurrect-those-useful-...
Apparently all the hubs that have multiple USB-C ports are running USB 2 over them, or you can just use them for power delivery.
I am suddenly very happy that none of my other devices except for my USB-C hub, actually uses USB-C, I'd be limited to the ports that came on the computer!
Thunderbolt docks can do it, they just run multiple USB controllers on board, one for each port, but indeed, it USB-C 3.1 as it stands today doesn't support hubs.
I had to stop for a second and look. I have a usb-c hub that outputs to gigabit and multiple usb 3.0 plugs.
A quick google search returns https://satechi.net/collections/usb-type-c/products/type-c-m... which isn't what I have, but it's more of the same.
My complaint about usb-c hubs, when I was looking for one a year ago is I couldn't find one that did 4k60, gigabit ethernet, and 2 or more usb 3.0 plugs. This has led me to plugging in two cables instead of one for years. If my monitor had a gigabit ethernet plug, I'd be set, because it outputs a bunch of usb (2) ports.
A quick google search returns https://satechi.net/collections/usb-type-c/products/type-c-m... which isn't what I have, but it's more of the same.
My complaint about usb-c hubs, when I was looking for one a year ago is I couldn't find one that did 4k60, gigabit ethernet, and 2 or more usb 3.0 plugs. This has led me to plugging in two cables instead of one for years. If my monitor had a gigabit ethernet plug, I'd be set, because it outputs a bunch of usb (2) ports.
This is probably the best explanation available of this: https://www.bigmessowires.com/2019/05/19/explaining-4k-60hz-...
This explains a lot. Thanks!
Hopefully USB 4 will make it possible.
Hopefully USB 4 will make it possible.
You have a dock, an adapter, a breakout box or whatever the cool kids are calling it.
A USB hub is just one USB port in and N out. There is no such thing for USB-c.
You can't even chain those adapters. The USB-c 'in' port that you plug power into? No data on that line. Just power.
And some of those adapters send the wrong voltage to USB-2 devices. Had a hell of a time with my keyboard and mouse until I started plugging the power directly into the computer.
A USB hub is just one USB port in and N out. There is no such thing for USB-c.
You can't even chain those adapters. The USB-c 'in' port that you plug power into? No data on that line. Just power.
And some of those adapters send the wrong voltage to USB-2 devices. Had a hell of a time with my keyboard and mouse until I started plugging the power directly into the computer.
But only 1 USB-C 3.1 plug!
I guess we'll have to wait another few years.
I can see why this all is though, the limitations are going to be insane.
I guess we'll have to wait another few years.
I can see why this all is though, the limitations are going to be insane.
A couple other links. Insane that no USB-C hubs exist.
https://superuser.com/q/1381139/122042
https://mjtsai.com/blog/2017/10/14/the-impossible-dream-of-u...
https://superuser.com/q/1381139/122042
https://mjtsai.com/blog/2017/10/14/the-impossible-dream-of-u...
I so wanted to be wrong it's not even funny. Like, how the fuck did you break this and why don't I remember screaming and bonfires in the streets over this? It's bullshit!
The weirdest one is that I at least expected those 'hubs' that have the port breakouts for everything to at least be able to take data in through both ports, but that doesn't work either. You can only plug a power brick into the USB-c female port.
The weirdest one is that I at least expected those 'hubs' that have the port breakouts for everything to at least be able to take data in through both ports, but that doesn't work either. You can only plug a power brick into the USB-c female port.
USB A was very easy to ruin as well. It might look strong but usually its just held on with a couple of solder joints which I found very prone to bend enough to break the device if it ever got an up/down force on it.
> There is no such thing as a USB-C hub. The protocol doesn't support it.
Did you read the protocol specification? (It's freely available, with no paywall or even login wall.) The protocol does support a USB-C hub. Actually protocols, since there are three separate protocols involved, each on its own set of wires: USB 2.0, USB 3.x, and USB-PD. Each of them has its own support for USB hubs. The hub support for USB 2.0 and USB 3.x is the same as in the older USB hubs with the USB-A and USB-B plugs and sockets; only USB-PD is new (and has long chapters on how power delivery works through hubs in several different scenarios).
The only gotcha is that Thunderbolt 3 does not support a USB 3.x hub (but this is fixed by its successor USB4); this is worked around by including a full PCIe USB 3.x host on the Thunderbolt 3 device, since Thunderbolt 3 can pass through PCIe and Displayport at the same time (USB4 adds USB 3.x to the passthrough).
Did you read the protocol specification? (It's freely available, with no paywall or even login wall.) The protocol does support a USB-C hub. Actually protocols, since there are three separate protocols involved, each on its own set of wires: USB 2.0, USB 3.x, and USB-PD. Each of them has its own support for USB hubs. The hub support for USB 2.0 and USB 3.x is the same as in the older USB hubs with the USB-A and USB-B plugs and sockets; only USB-PD is new (and has long chapters on how power delivery works through hubs in several different scenarios).
The only gotcha is that Thunderbolt 3 does not support a USB 3.x hub (but this is fixed by its successor USB4); this is worked around by including a full PCIe USB 3.x host on the Thunderbolt 3 device, since Thunderbolt 3 can pass through PCIe and Displayport at the same time (USB4 adds USB 3.x to the passthrough).
god I hope this is satire
I'm about 70-30 on it being satire
I'm about 70-30 on it being satire
> Having to deal with dongles for a couple years while the rest of the market catches up isn't a reason to push against the best port standard in decades.
But why do I have to be the hostage here? I don't want to wait for "the rest of the market catches up", I want to get my work done, and my work requires plugging in lots of USB-A peripherals. The move to USB-C only was premature and trying to force the market using users as hostages shows incredible hubris.
But why do I have to be the hostage here? I don't want to wait for "the rest of the market catches up", I want to get my work done, and my work requires plugging in lots of USB-A peripherals. The move to USB-C only was premature and trying to force the market using users as hostages shows incredible hubris.
I like watching this from time to time, as it really resonates with me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z58QrvVR7bE
As Steve Jobs says, you should start from the user experience and work backwards. Dongle hell is not a good user experience, especially when Apple's obsession with slimness is in part due to portability.
As Steve Jobs says, you should start from the user experience and work backwards. Dongle hell is not a good user experience, especially when Apple's obsession with slimness is in part due to portability.
I wanted to give a shout out for this USB C hub. Not associated with the manufacturer, I'm am just a happy customer.
https://satechi.net/collections/usb-type-c/products/type-c-m...
https://satechi.net/collections/usb-type-c/products/type-c-m...
It only has a single USB C port (like every other USB C "hub" out there right now).
And to be clear, that port is for charging-in only, not data.
USB-C is great. Carrying around a dongle is not that hard IMO, but if you can't, just buy a bunch of these[1] and keep them attached to your USB cables all the time.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Syntech-Adapter-Thunderbolt-Compatibl...
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Syntech-Adapter-Thunderbolt-Compatibl...
They don't care because you and people like you are obviously buying them.
I would say you are not their target market - you have specific hardware needs a tiny fraction of the overall population have. It's been ages since I last used a parallel port to control external devices from a computer. When I do so, I use an $10 RPi-like board and its GPIO pins. I don't do hardware for a living, but I write software and this machine seems perfectly good for that. In fact, it's a bit of an overkill.
Yeah it sucks, BUT if they are not going to add it how about throwing a nice hub dongle in the box for free? Something that gives me card reader, a couple USB ports, ethernet, hdmi. that would take some of the sting out of it. Since you can buy a good one for $50 this is not a huge deal considering the premium price you pay already.
Also while you are at it include the Apple Power Cable extension cable too. Crazy that is not included.
Also while you are at it include the Apple Power Cable extension cable too. Crazy that is not included.
Imagine if there were other computer manufacturers.
I looked for the marketing image with the dongles but can't find it. Where did you see it?
If you buy a good usb-c docking station like the dell D6000 for your setup at home some pain will be alleviated
At least the dongles are color-coordinated with the white polycarbonate MacBooks.
right... a "Pro" computer with only USB-C ports, no HDMI out, no SD card reader, soldered memory.... dongle dongle dongle. no thanks. (before i'm accused of being a troll. I have a MBP with all those things circa 2005 or so, it's old and slow AF now. But still works for what I use it for and I have quite a few PC laptops as well.
Still no MagSafe charger. Instant skip.
Nice. Hope these changes make it down to the 13" (or new 14") model.
Prediction: These comments will be obscenely hostile toward the new device, yet the new device will rank among Apple's best selling computers to-date.
People pay a lot of money for what is in reality an abridged notebook.
"Look, we give you your Esc and arrow keys back"
it's a scam.
"Look, we give you your Esc and arrow keys back"
it's a scam.
Anyone know why they didn't use the latest 10th gen processors?
Friendly reminder:
it's == (it is | it has)
It's my responsibility to correct grammar. it's been tough for the Lions this year.
its == (the thing belonging to it) You should always judge a book by its cover.
it's == (it is | it has)
It's my responsibility to correct grammar. it's been tough for the Lions this year.
its == (the thing belonging to it) You should always judge a book by its cover.
> The 16-inch MacBook Pro features a new Magic Keyboard with a refined scissor mechanism
Probably one of the most important features, even if mentioned in passing, given the problems of the butterfly mechanism.
Probably one of the most important features, even if mentioned in passing, given the problems of the butterfly mechanism.
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I checked my trade in value for my 2018 MBP. $1130. Come to think of it, my 15 inch is actually pretty big, so I'll wait to get the next generation.
This is quite amazing...Wish I could afford it.
> 96W USB‑C Power Adapter
That's a big deal for everyone. I do not know why it's not 100W but I will take what I can get. You see, Apple landing on 87W for their USB C adapter led to a lot of third party chargers also being 87W (or if multiple ports then one maxing out there) which is very frustrating to those who need more oomph. There's something to be said about education in the US when you need to explain to people a higher wattage charger doesn't damage their equipment...
That's a big deal for everyone. I do not know why it's not 100W but I will take what I can get. You see, Apple landing on 87W for their USB C adapter led to a lot of third party chargers also being 87W (or if multiple ports then one maxing out there) which is very frustrating to those who need more oomph. There's something to be said about education in the US when you need to explain to people a higher wattage charger doesn't damage their equipment...
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The lack of a larger screen size coupled with the keyboard deficiencies are what drove me away from macOS to various linux distros.
While I'm immensely happy with my new OS - a lot more could be said about the hardware ( especially when running larger screens on pc that just can't keep up battery wise ).
This is a phenomenal step in the right direction, but one that comes too late for me. At this point I can't begin to consider jumping back until macOS sees some substantial improvements.
While I'm immensely happy with my new OS - a lot more could be said about the hardware ( especially when running larger screens on pc that just can't keep up battery wise ).
This is a phenomenal step in the right direction, but one that comes too late for me. At this point I can't begin to consider jumping back until macOS sees some substantial improvements.
I ordered one. It will be replacing my 2017 with a swollen battery and messed up keyboard. I'm worried I'm throwing good money after bad, but hopefully the MacBook Pro is back on it's game.
I'll be taking the 2017 to the Apple store and get them to fix it up under their keyboard (and hopefully battery) replacement program.
I'll be taking the 2017 to the Apple store and get them to fix it up under their keyboard (and hopefully battery) replacement program.
Now if they would just support the new 7nm AMD mobile processors, I'd buy one of these without question. But I have a feeling that next spring I'll have to choose between this Mac and lower compute performance or a half price Linux model from some Asian company with ~50% more oomph. Tough call. If you're a developer, which would you pick?
Hello, 2019!
Real talk, if I could easily do my own repairs, and HW replacements on it, I would get it.
Typed on the flawless keyboard of my insanely awesome, truly immersive, MBP 17" Mid 2010.
Real talk, if I could easily do my own repairs, and HW replacements on it, I would get it.
Typed on the flawless keyboard of my insanely awesome, truly immersive, MBP 17" Mid 2010.
Let's hope this gets other manufacturers to also release some 16" laptops.
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I'm curious why the memory controller in that supports 64 Gigs would not have made it into the recent refresh of 15" MBP. Is this related to the new thermal design they mentioned maybe?
Just bought the 15" 10 days ago... Hating myself already... :(
I believe Apple lets you return for up to 14 days last time I checked. I assume you’d just have to wait a while for actual availability.
will do that , thanks!
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I'm curious why this memory controller that supports 64 Gigs would not have made it into the recent refresh of the 15" MBP. Is this related to the new thermal design they mentioned maybe?
I think my question will be ports. The article didn't say what they broke there. Will it only support Bluetooth headphones? Bluetooth monitors? No USB? No SD card slot?
Especially for a 16" laptop, I'd like something without a mess of dongles and adapters. The 2015 15" Macbook was pretty good in this department, but Apple is on a port-cutting rampage.
Especially for a 16" laptop, I'd like something without a mess of dongles and adapters. The 2015 15" Macbook was pretty good in this department, but Apple is on a port-cutting rampage.
Well the tech specs page is up: https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-16/specs/
4 USB-C ports and a headphone jack. Same as before.
4 USB-C ports and a headphone jack. Same as before.
Keyboard re-design and bringing back the ESC key will be huge.
64GB of RAM in a laptop... yowza.
64GB of RAM in a laptop... yowza.
Typing this from my two year old thinkpad with 64GB.
Even though I dislike their now standard 16:9 ratio, Thinkpads are top tier. I've been using them since the late 90s. I think the 770ED was my first one. I still have a W500 that's in use from time to time.
Same here, I still own many generations I now use a P50, almost went for the p52 with 128GB.
Buried in this press release:
> Today, Apple also announced that the all-new Mac Pro... will be available in December
> Today, Apple also announced that the all-new Mac Pro... will be available in December
"Today, Apple also announced that the all-new Mac Pro"
"Mac Pro starts at $5,999 and Pro Display XDR starts at $4,999. Both will be available to order in December through apple.com."
They keep announcing it, yet you still can't buy it. I wonder why.
"Mac Pro starts at $5,999 and Pro Display XDR starts at $4,999. Both will be available to order in December through apple.com."
They keep announcing it, yet you still can't buy it. I wonder why.
> They keep announcing it, yet you still can't buy it. I wonder why.
There's some custom parts involved, so maybe it just required getting new manufacturing processes up to speed and it took longer than expected? I think the Mac Pro is not manufactured or assembled in China, which might be part of that additional time, too.
There's some custom parts involved, so maybe it just required getting new manufacturing processes up to speed and it took longer than expected? I think the Mac Pro is not manufactured or assembled in China, which might be part of that additional time, too.
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I guess the return of HDMI and MagSafe was too much to hope for :(
I agree that the improvements like the ESC key and 16" screen are good things.
But is it strange to anyone else that a company that prides itself on being innovative and motto is "think different" is parading around a screen size change and a keyboard regression as the biggest selling points for a product launch?
But is it strange to anyone else that a company that prides itself on being innovative and motto is "think different" is parading around a screen size change and a keyboard regression as the biggest selling points for a product launch?
This release is essentially a "we messed up, this is what you wanted all long", but they can't say that so they're using the regular MBP marketing talk.
Not hating - I am getting this laptop.
Not hating - I am getting this laptop.
Plus the updated CPU, RAM and GPU associated with a hardware refresh. They can be seen also as good selling points :)
Intel processor riddled with vulnerabilities over AMD's 7nm state of the art processors which are cooler and more energy efficient?
Overpriced soldered RAM?
AMD GPU that's basicaly useless for ML instead of NVidia?
None of these are good selling points.
Overpriced soldered RAM?
AMD GPU that's basicaly useless for ML instead of NVidia?
None of these are good selling points.
No it's not strange. The MBPs are (were?) great, reliable tools on which thousands of professionals rely on every day. They also rely on being able to replace them with equivalent or better replacements when they break.
They work. There's no need for needless new gimmicks. It's fine to have a reliable, consistent tool available for purchase. Just like Thinkpads, hammers and multimeters. It's ok to be conservative on new things in some market segments.
They work. There's no need for needless new gimmicks. It's fine to have a reliable, consistent tool available for purchase. Just like Thinkpads, hammers and multimeters. It's ok to be conservative on new things in some market segments.
Trying, failing, and backtracking is an inherent part of innovation. It's not as sexy as trying and succeeding, but even Apple can't win them all, so the alternative is never trying. That would be the real stagnation.
This release is more of a "we listened" release than anything else. That's likely why they didn't parade it around with an October event and instead went with a private press review and press release.
They listened to the complaints and addressed them but whether or not the fixes worked remains to be seen. Maybe they did this release without much fanfare because they're being cautious themselves...
Well, that or you could look at it like this:
They made a new 1.6 inch macbook pro three years ago with all kinds of design, performance, and battery life but the keyboard turned out to be highly defective and the Touchbar's replacement of the escape key was super annoying, that laptop got generally lamented and trashed by the press and public. (If you are not a hardcore function key user and the keyboard has not broken yet, it's a pretty fantastic laptop, generally still the best at first, but obviously based on your needs and the worry of having the kb break)
So you can see this as an improvement to the current gen MBP.. or you can see this as a selling item to those who skipped the 2016 and still have a 2015 (or who had a 2016 and got burned). When you are drowning your goals are not to get on a ship or to go someplace, they are to get air.
So you can see this as an improvement to the current gen MBP.. or you can see this as a selling item to those who skipped the 2016 and still have a 2015 (or who had a 2016 and got burned). When you are drowning your goals are not to get on a ship or to go someplace, they are to get air.
Well to be honest there's very little fanfare around this MacBook by Apple but it just happens to let the internet explode a bit because so many people were waiting for it.
Is anyone else wondering about that 8TB SSD bit? Unless they have four M.2 slots which I doubt they must use 4TB SSDs and that'd be QLC which sucks.
They don’t do slots. They’ll be soldered onto the board directly, straight into the T2 chip via PCI-E.
Doesnt speak to the quality of the NAND, probably 3D/QLC though. For density.
Doesnt speak to the quality of the NAND, probably 3D/QLC though. For density.
Yeah, I forgot, of course. In that case, who knows, there are 22110 enterprise 4TB SSDs using MLC even -- maybe they have enough space on the board for MLC or TLC. We will know when iFixit tears one down :)
64GB RAM is like "hallelujah". Doing enterprise dev with Docker + Java is pretty horrible with 16GB on my 2017 MBP.
The fact that this review didn't even once mention the fact that this machine is now thicker & bigger and yet they didn't add any useful ports back in is amazing.
I still hate that the 2017 one I have has only USB-C + Headphone jack. I appreciate that it still has the headphone jack.
But at our office we all got OWC Thunderbolt 3 Docks @ $300/desk and the whole experience sucks.
The fact that this review didn't even once mention the fact that this machine is now thicker & bigger and yet they didn't add any useful ports back in is amazing.
I still hate that the 2017 one I have has only USB-C + Headphone jack. I appreciate that it still has the headphone jack.
But at our office we all got OWC Thunderbolt 3 Docks @ $300/desk and the whole experience sucks.
I'd get an external display with a dock built-in. I have the new 4k LG one at my desk, and I love needing only one cable to connect to my MBP when I'm at my desk. It even handles power.
My 15” has 32gb of memory and 4 usb-c ports. I’m excited too, but you could have alleviated your problems a year ago.
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I was pleasantly surprised about the 64gb also. Same issue with Docker making me want to upgrade.
This has the largest battery possible under TSA regulations.
This has the largest battery possible under TSA regulations.
I have the 15" with 32gb and I thought docker was making my laptop shit the bed - screens flickering all the time, mouse barely moving, etc.
It turned out to be docker plus Firefox (current version/Quantum yada yada) that was too much - I can't stop using all this docker stuff but I switched to Safari and haven't had any problems at all
It turned out to be docker plus Firefox (current version/Quantum yada yada) that was too much - I can't stop using all this docker stuff but I switched to Safari and haven't had any problems at all
Both Chrome and Firefox are much more demanding than many realize. It’s gotten to the point that they should consider a feature freeze and focus on nothing but efficiency and performance for the next few years.
That's kinda what Firefox did
Any port that isn’t usb-c has to die and I’m glad Apple is contributing to this.
The MSI and ThinkPads have had four ram slots for years...
You can easily upgrade to 128 gb on these models.
You can easily upgrade to 128 gb on these models.
What are you using that isn't USB C/Bluetooth at this point? Honest question.
Inexpensive monitors. USB keys. Older external drives. Ethernet. Office realities.
Not OP but I don't own a single device that uses USB-C. Every USB device I have uses USB-A, including a mouse I bought last month.
(I'm not an Apple user.) I routinely simultaneously use all of the following:
Ethernet, 1-2 USB Type A, SD Card, 3.5mm audio, DisplayPort, (while charging too).
As we can see, Apple's 'Pro' products simply do not work me.
Ethernet, 1-2 USB Type A, SD Card, 3.5mm audio, DisplayPort, (while charging too).
As we can see, Apple's 'Pro' products simply do not work me.
If you're using DisplayPort, that suggests you're at a desk, with an external monitor; for this, a dock works great. I routinely use all of those simultaneously on the TB3 dock I've got at my desk.
All of them? I don’t have a single device that uses USB-C.
How about iPhones, as a great example? :P
How about iPhones, as a great example? :P
Literally every single TV or projector I've ever given a presentation on
Ethernet
(micro-)SD card
Keyboard
Mouse
Displays
Flashing microcontrollers (technically could be done over BT but it is a pain in the ass)
Gamepad
I've bought dongles/docking stations for all of these devices but it is a huge hassle when traveling, which is a use case a laptop should be able to excel at. Adding just a single USB-A port and HDMI would be a complete gamechanger for me. Apple wouldn't be able to sell as many of their $70 dongles though.
Ethernet
(micro-)SD card
Keyboard
Mouse
Displays
Flashing microcontrollers (technically could be done over BT but it is a pain in the ass)
Gamepad
I've bought dongles/docking stations for all of these devices but it is a huge hassle when traveling, which is a use case a laptop should be able to excel at. Adding just a single USB-A port and HDMI would be a complete gamechanger for me. Apple wouldn't be able to sell as many of their $70 dongles though.
You can use xb1 controller wirelessly with mbp, new ones connect via bluetooth. As a bonus you could also use it with iphones, ipads and even tvs.
Unfortunately for the project I'm using it for, any RF stuff is a nonstarter. It needs to be wired.
Logitech mice work better with the receiver than over bluetooth.
I'm making due with one dongle right now because I have a Thunderbolt adapter and I've daisy chained all my peripherals off of my old Cinema display.
But it's started glitching out with USB devices.
I'm making due with one dongle right now because I have a Thunderbolt adapter and I've daisy chained all my peripherals off of my old Cinema display.
But it's started glitching out with USB devices.
I've given up on wireless mice and have gone back to wired. It feels futuristic! Just plug it in and it works immediately! No pairing, no charging, no dongles, and it's lighter.
> Logitech mice work better with the receiver than over bluetooth.
I've found the opposite to be true, with my MX Master 3 using the receiver resulted in some odd "bald spots" on the mat that made no sense, switching to bluetooth fixed it.
I've found the opposite to be true, with my MX Master 3 using the receiver resulted in some odd "bald spots" on the mat that made no sense, switching to bluetooth fixed it.
None of my peripherals or other things I need to hook up to like projectors are usb c/bluetooth. I need converters for everything.
Keyboard, mouse, speakers, monitor, USB hub, printer, thumb drive, ext hard drive, SD card, uC programmer, test equipment (scopes, power meters).
That is just what is plugged in to my computer right now, (all USB type A)
That is just what is plugged in to my computer right now, (all USB type A)
Get a cloud desktop, a cleaner environment that will likely be closer to what production look like.
The mac only need to be powerful enough to run the IDE.
The mac only need to be powerful enough to run the IDE.
It's still one of my goals to be able to get half a dozen devs in a room and be able to emulate most of our infrastructure on those 6 machines, for purposes of prototyping and debugging.
Then you have to pay for cloud processing. Owning your hardware is an investment that pays off more than ever now that things like Kubernetes’ resource provisioning can escalate costs to the stratosphere even when the nodes are not doing any real work.
I think my next Mac will be whatever laptop still has all of its keys and I’ll just keep building machines to run linux with a one-step Kubernetes solution for development clusters. Many people don’t want to assemble machines and that makes a beefy laptop running Minikube the easiest solution to dodge cloud costs outside of production.
I think my next Mac will be whatever laptop still has all of its keys and I’ll just keep building machines to run linux with a one-step Kubernetes solution for development clusters. Many people don’t want to assemble machines and that makes a beefy laptop running Minikube the easiest solution to dodge cloud costs outside of production.
It's not ideal right now but cloud dev is clearly the way it's going. I'd say buying el cheapo chromebook + cloud dev environment would work out to be cheaper even if the cloud provider somehow screwed up and took off(not been my experience but i haven't needed to work with k8 yet)
On AWS K8s provisioning a basic 4-node cluster to sit there and do nothing costs over $300 per month. The amount you spend in a year can be used to build an unreasonably powerful cluster in your home or office.
I work at a financial institution that is going the reverse, potentially because of internal issues - the dev environment is underprovisioned, and I guess they can't/won't beef it up, so all the developers are going back from virtual desktops to fully loaded for local dev and testing.
Funny enough I just replaced my MBP 15 with a Sager notebook due to two of the issues they seem to have addressed with this release. First and foremost was lack of ram I have to virtualize a lot of specialty hardware for one of my clients so that I can simulate a total environment on a single machine. There can literally be 1000's of nodes running custom embedded systems. 16GB was stretching it on my last MBP and 32 just got me back in the game with my 15. I really needed 64GB and my new Sager has the ability to go to 128GB.
The second was the move away from the 17 MBP I know they are not popular and I know the reasons for killing it, but I develop on the road a lot and the extra screen space helps when a second monitor is not practical.
Had this been out 6 months ago I may have reconsidered my switch to a PC. That being said I am happy with my switch.
The second was the move away from the 17 MBP I know they are not popular and I know the reasons for killing it, but I develop on the road a lot and the extra screen space helps when a second monitor is not practical.
Had this been out 6 months ago I may have reconsidered my switch to a PC. That being said I am happy with my switch.
Still with the annoying and disruptive touch bar.
Why does everyone seem grateful that they kept the headphone jack? Where did Apple give the impression that they would remove it from a more stationary device?
Because removing ports and peripherals is a thing that Apple keeps doing.
Apple sent a survey asking once how macbook owners would feel if they removed it.
They believe the answer is going to be Bluetooth.
They believe the answer is going to be Bluetooth.
Music production is usually Mac at this point, and that requires wired headphones/speakers. Not sure it’s big enough of a market that Apple wouldn’t drop it anyway, but Bluetooth latencies are too high to be a substitute there.
Anyone doing pro music work will have a USB interface anyway.
But, like, people listen to music and watch videos on their laptops, and it would be absurd to force them to use bluetooth headphones for no good reason.
But, like, people listen to music and watch videos on their laptops, and it would be absurd to force them to use bluetooth headphones for no good reason.
There are still many places (classrooms, lecture theatres, meeting rooms) where the only way to drive the projector is VGA. Not because it's good, but because it's the lowest common denominator. In these places, when using VGA, the only audio input to the speakers is usually a 3.5mm jack. Remove the 3.5mm jack, and anyone who teaches or makes business presentations won't buy it.
I receive that survey. I wouldn't go that far as them betting completely on Bluetooth. But it will be wireless.
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The screen resolution of 3072x1920 (224.6ppi) is triple 1024x640.
Apple states that it also scales to
The 16" display has a 16:10 aspect ratio.
Apple states that it also scales to
• 1920x1200 (3:5)
• 1680x1050 (48:25)
• 1280x800 (12:5)
The 16" display has a 16:10 aspect ratio.
This is Apple going all in on pro for this laptop.
The display is fantastic all around, 64 GB of ram, 8 GB of DDR6 VRAM, 8 cores, biggest battery FAA will allow on planes, 8 TB SSD, etc.
This will also be able to connect to Apple's upcoming 6K 32-inch display.
This is a very impressive update all around and it shows Apple putting a lot of space between their pro laptops and the MBA and iPad Pro now. The lineup is starting to make a lot of sense again.
The display is fantastic all around, 64 GB of ram, 8 GB of DDR6 VRAM, 8 cores, biggest battery FAA will allow on planes, 8 TB SSD, etc.
This will also be able to connect to Apple's upcoming 6K 32-inch display.
This is a very impressive update all around and it shows Apple putting a lot of space between their pro laptops and the MBA and iPad Pro now. The lineup is starting to make a lot of sense again.
When people cite the great feat of putting in a 100Wh battery into this laptop they seem to keep forgetting that the 2012-2014 models had a 95Wh battery and the 2015 model had a 99.5Wh battery.
Only when flattening the design for the 2016 year did they reduce it to 76Wh.
Only when flattening the design for the 2016 year did they reduce it to 76Wh.
We're hoping undoing mistakes is a good step towards actual progress
As long as consumers are willing to shell out several thousand dollars per iteration of mistake-undoing then it's likely that some day you'll see actual progress.
In the specific case of the battery it's unlikely to get any bigger than 100Wh as that would make it illegal to take on planes in the US.
Some ruggedized laptops have two separate batteries for hot-swapping while keeping the PC on, and this way you can take a laptop with more than 100 Wh on a plane. The same way I take a 95 Wh laptop with a 75 Wh power bank. So never say never :)
I've never had a good experience with swappable batteries.
And replaced the keyboard with a design that feels like smashing your finger against the desk repeatedly.
The dimensions of this laptop are pretty comparable to the 2015 body, but 10% thinner, whereas the 2018 macbook was 14% thinner.
Have they fixed the damned keyboard? My early 2019 is still squishy.
Have they fixed the damned keyboard? My early 2019 is still squishy.
The article mentions the new keyboard right in the subheader, multiple times in the first couple paragraphs, and has a whole section devoted to it.
TL;DR: Yes, it's a completely new keyboard design, with scissor switches, not butterfly, more key travel, slightly more key separation, more offset for the Touch Bar, and a physical escape key and separate Touch ID sensor.
TL;DR: Yes, it's a completely new keyboard design, with scissor switches, not butterfly, more key travel, slightly more key separation, more offset for the Touch Bar, and a physical escape key and separate Touch ID sensor.
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You are going to have to put up with people asking about the keyboard for a while. They've been blowing smoke up our asses for two years about how they 'fixed' the old one. 4 revisions in it's... better, but still reminiscent of the sorts of keyboards that nobody would buy after trying.
The reaction is going to be, "Yeah, I know they said they fixed the keyboard, but really, did they fix the keyboard?" from quite a lot of people.
The reaction is going to be, "Yeah, I know they said they fixed the keyboard, but really, did they fix the keyboard?" from quite a lot of people.
For the longest time the iPhones were getting thinner and thinner and hn/reddit complained that they really wanted chunkier iPhones with better batteries.
Then Apple turned the battleship and since 2014 (iPhone 6) we've gotten a thicker phone with improved battery life in every redesign.
I'm pretty happy about this new direction.
Then Apple turned the battleship and since 2014 (iPhone 6) we've gotten a thicker phone with improved battery life in every redesign.
I'm pretty happy about this new direction.
Except for the small fact that its starting price is $2300, that buys you absolutely nothing better except for something that looks nice. Mac OS has been declining in quality, and the hardware design still lacks quality. Im willing to put money on the fact that this thing will thermal throttle.
Looks nice and has the specs to back it up, you might can find another laptop with the same specs for $2300 but the build quality, software, and support will be lacking.
Build quality is not that great. Did everyone forget about the Fiasco with the keyboards? Apple messes up hardware design quite a bit.
Software is purely personal choice. Some people prefer windows, others mac, others linux. Modern Linux does everything you want, including support for a good portion of popular games through Proton under Steam
Apple support is a joke, they will upcharge quite a bit for replacing whole boards when its a matter of a simple repair. Watch any of Louis Rossmanns videos. Not to mention that for any of the other manufacturers, you can order and replace parts yourself with relative ease - all it takes is a screwdriver.
Software is purely personal choice. Some people prefer windows, others mac, others linux. Modern Linux does everything you want, including support for a good portion of popular games through Proton under Steam
Apple support is a joke, they will upcharge quite a bit for replacing whole boards when its a matter of a simple repair. Watch any of Louis Rossmanns videos. Not to mention that for any of the other manufacturers, you can order and replace parts yourself with relative ease - all it takes is a screwdriver.
As someone who's worked on the other main manufacturers...that's simply not true
> This is Apple going all in on pro
"Pro" has basically been sapped of all meaning as a term.
Will there be some "pro" users (really: power users, people who run stuff that maxes out this new model's capabilities)? Yep. Will they be a minority, while most users will buy it because of its luxury status, keeping up with the times, or ecosystem familiarity/lock-in? Also yep.
"Pro" has basically been sapped of all meaning as a term.
Will there be some "pro" users (really: power users, people who run stuff that maxes out this new model's capabilities)? Yep. Will they be a minority, while most users will buy it because of its luxury status, keeping up with the times, or ecosystem familiarity/lock-in? Also yep.
Would it KILL them to build a regular keyboard with function keys? It's a $100 part...
I can't be the only software engineer who refuses to buy it on this one major issue.
I can't be the only software engineer who refuses to buy it on this one major issue.
I’m totally not regretting upgrading to this year’s 15 inch model.
Just a huge bit.
Apple do take your current model back for credit but given I’ll only get 900 pounds for it (presumably much more in the USA!) I guess I’ll stick to it for now. I’d be happy to pay a few hundreds for the upgrade; it’s unjustifiable to upgrade for full price minus a 900 pound discount.
Just a huge bit.
Apple do take your current model back for credit but given I’ll only get 900 pounds for it (presumably much more in the USA!) I guess I’ll stick to it for now. I’d be happy to pay a few hundreds for the upgrade; it’s unjustifiable to upgrade for full price minus a 900 pound discount.
Finally a 1TB SSD is not eye-wateringly expensive. Even the base model is 512.
Kinda wish it was $200 more for 32GB of RAM instead of $400 - my only complaint.
Yeah agreed. I have 16GB in the MacBook Pro I bought back in 2013. Surely in 6 years a doubling of ram should not be too much to ask without breaking the bank.
dongles. pros want dongles!
"Built‑in 100‑watt‑hour lithium‑polymer battery"
That is quite respectable! As large battery as possible, instead of saving the few grams or cubic millimeters.
I'm comparing this to for example Lenovo, which seems to like coming up with imaginary battery life promises ("The T490 delivers up to 16.1 hours of battery life") and then cutting the actual battery to minimum.
That is quite respectable! As large battery as possible, instead of saving the few grams or cubic millimeters.
I'm comparing this to for example Lenovo, which seems to like coming up with imaginary battery life promises ("The T490 delivers up to 16.1 hours of battery life") and then cutting the actual battery to minimum.
My p50 has 70 whatt/h and as the battery is removable, I have 2 of them.
Sweet, a MBP that lives up to the name again. Congrats on listening to your customers, Apple. Too bad for me, I gave in and 'upgraded' my 2011 to a top of the line used 2015 MBP about six months ago, now I kinda want this new one. Ah well
While it's nice to see an opinionated company like Apple admit fault and revert to what people want, I wonder if this move is too late for many of those that decided to move away from Apple?
Years ago, I switched to a Surface Book, and while I'm tempted to go back for this MBP I reckon that a Surface Book update would be enough to kill any desire for the Mac range. While Apple stagnated, many of the high-end manufacturers caught up.
Years ago, I switched to a Surface Book, and while I'm tempted to go back for this MBP I reckon that a Surface Book update would be enough to kill any desire for the Mac range. While Apple stagnated, many of the high-end manufacturers caught up.
I waited a couple of years to replace my MBP. I will never switch back to Windows. I hate Windows more than I hate the butterfly keyboard and I knew Apple would have to come up with a better MBP at some point.
Of course not. The people who complain on HN and switch to the “windows subsystem for linux” are a fringe minority. The rest of the industry is still jamming on a Mac.
I'm not necessarily talking about developers.
The biggest group that I've seen move away from the MBP range aren't developers, but are creatives - either in design or in sound/music. I know a few DJ's in my local area that have largely switched to Windows laptops because they feel tools like Ableton work better, and because they feel that for the price they're paying they're not getting value for money from the MBP range.
The biggest group that I've seen move away from the MBP range aren't developers, but are creatives - either in design or in sound/music. I know a few DJ's in my local area that have largely switched to Windows laptops because they feel tools like Ableton work better, and because they feel that for the price they're paying they're not getting value for money from the MBP range.
You seem to be living in an all apple bubble. MBP share is tiny when compared to windows laptops.
For what industry? You're on HN not SAP daily. The rest of the world definitely runs on Windows but if you’re building software and reading HN you’re probably on macOS.
I do both and around 10% of people around me are on mac.
Where I work we are around 40 developers. 1 use a Mac, because he has to maintain our iOS app.
You’ll see the CEO and other PowerPoint-users have Macs, but not developers.
You’ll see the CEO and other PowerPoint-users have Macs, but not developers.
I don't know if that's true. Software devs in consulting shops (especially the megacorps - Accenture, TCS, Infosys, Cap Gemini) are probably the bulk of workers that write software. Most of them are likely not on HN but they do build software and they do it on Windows.
@dang
What are the browser and operating stats for HN?
What are the browser and operating stats for HN?
The whole "developers use Mac" thing is not because Macs are better, its because when companies need to give their devs hardware, Macs are the least shitty alternatives.
For example, Amazon gives most of the devs Macs. However, they still use Amazon Linux (RHEL based) VMs for building and testing services, because the EC2s that run these services in prod are all RHEL based. Half of my time is spent in an ssh shell, because either half the shit doesn't work on Mac because of some native dependency, or because I don't want to run into some weird bug like I had due to the case insesitivity of the MacOs system where the code reads a file, but the same code doesn't work when its deployed to EC2.
And as such, there are issues galore with the computers. External display over usbc for presentations sometimes don't work and require a restart of the laptops, which takes 2 minutes for some reason even with ssds. Some USBc hubs fuck up SMC controllers, which then requires a reset, and others straight up fry computers. Copy and Paste on websites often doesn't work as intended. Wifi randomly drops out.
I dunno how the old Macbooks held up, but modern ones are a complete ripoff for what you get if you are spending your own money on one.None of these issues are present on my personal $300 laptop running Linux Mint with minimal customization.
For example, Amazon gives most of the devs Macs. However, they still use Amazon Linux (RHEL based) VMs for building and testing services, because the EC2s that run these services in prod are all RHEL based. Half of my time is spent in an ssh shell, because either half the shit doesn't work on Mac because of some native dependency, or because I don't want to run into some weird bug like I had due to the case insesitivity of the MacOs system where the code reads a file, but the same code doesn't work when its deployed to EC2.
And as such, there are issues galore with the computers. External display over usbc for presentations sometimes don't work and require a restart of the laptops, which takes 2 minutes for some reason even with ssds. Some USBc hubs fuck up SMC controllers, which then requires a reset, and others straight up fry computers. Copy and Paste on websites often doesn't work as intended. Wifi randomly drops out.
I dunno how the old Macbooks held up, but modern ones are a complete ripoff for what you get if you are spending your own money on one.None of these issues are present on my personal $300 laptop running Linux Mint with minimal customization.
WSL just is not ready yet. It breaks too often.
Doubt it. For devs there still isn't a great alternative. No one has the build quality of Apple and the XPS has been disappointing. Can't speak much for other pros but I'd imagine that they held off on an upgrade rather than switch to a new manufacturer. Apple's branding helps here.
There are absolutely better alternatives. Ubuntu 18 with Gnome (or any other modern Linux) + modern laptops with intel/nvidia work fantastic. Plenty of good aluminum chassi out there.
Apple build quality isn't even close to being good. Hardware failures are common, they had the shitty keyboards in previous gens that started failing after dust got stuck in them, e.t.c.
Apple build quality isn't even close to being good. Hardware failures are common, they had the shitty keyboards in previous gens that started failing after dust got stuck in them, e.t.c.
Ok, what is the Apple laptops failure rate compared to others? Judging by what you say it should be at the bottom, correct?
https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/tech-support-showdown
https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/tech-support-showdown
That site ranks laptops by tech support, not reliability.
You don't need to look far to see Apples failures
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/03/apple-apologizes-for...
Keep in mind that on something like a Lenovo, if a keyboard fails, it takes 2 days to order a new one from amazon for a very cheap price, and 10 minutes to swap it.
You don't need to look far to see Apples failures
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/03/apple-apologizes-for...
Keep in mind that on something like a Lenovo, if a keyboard fails, it takes 2 days to order a new one from amazon for a very cheap price, and 10 minutes to swap it.
Apple did have impressive build quality, but those days are long gone. I can run happily on a MBP from a few years ago, whereas the newer ones have had numerous issues.
In terms of overall quality, I'd say that MBP is now behind some of the other high-end devices. The Surface Book knocks the latest MBP versions out of the water in every department, except for the track pad. It's not difficult to argue that the keyboard, screen, durability, or even the OS is superior to Apple's (current) offering.
In terms of overall quality, I'd say that MBP is now behind some of the other high-end devices. The Surface Book knocks the latest MBP versions out of the water in every department, except for the track pad. It's not difficult to argue that the keyboard, screen, durability, or even the OS is superior to Apple's (current) offering.
My Surface Book 2 with a GTX 1060 can’t drive two 4K monitors at 60Hz using the Surface Dock 2 unless you purchase DisplayLink adapters. That laptop retails for $3,200 in that configuration before taxes and the Surface Dock itself. Fortunately, it’s a corporate device so I can’t complain. Had it have been a personal purchase it would have found its way back to the store.
I already moved my workstation work to windows after waiting years and years for a Mac Pro. Seems like it was definitely the right thing to do because even though I do VFX work the Mac Pro they've created isn't suitable at all for it.
Although I'm in the market for a new laptop this isn't an instant buy for me, starting to feel I should move all my computing away from Apple because although this is a step in the right direction, we've had years of them not caring about computers.
Although I'm in the market for a new laptop this isn't an instant buy for me, starting to feel I should move all my computing away from Apple because although this is a step in the right direction, we've had years of them not caring about computers.
They certainly missed out on one sale of a MBP from me about a year ago, but after experiencing the competition (I settled on a high-end Gigabyte laptop) I'm eager to go back.
Even just little things like being able to charge USB devices while the laptop is closed make a real difference in my life.
Even just little things like being able to charge USB devices while the laptop is closed make a real difference in my life.
MacOS. These points have been made a million times, but I'll make them again.
Windows is fine for day to day casual use, but the moment you attempt to peek under the hood you encounter a hostile and alien landscape.
Linux is usually consistent, well organized, and highly configurable when you are under the hood, but is a pain in the ass for day to day use. Edit: Illustrator and Photoshop still aren't available for Linux as I just discovered.
MacOS is Unix under the hood, but it has software support near that of Windows, and it also adds a layer of convenience and thoughtfulness on top that isn't matched elsewhere. Ffs, It is still the only OS that recovers basically flawlessly from running out of batteries.
Windows is fine for day to day casual use, but the moment you attempt to peek under the hood you encounter a hostile and alien landscape.
Linux is usually consistent, well organized, and highly configurable when you are under the hood, but is a pain in the ass for day to day use. Edit: Illustrator and Photoshop still aren't available for Linux as I just discovered.
MacOS is Unix under the hood, but it has software support near that of Windows, and it also adds a layer of convenience and thoughtfulness on top that isn't matched elsewhere. Ffs, It is still the only OS that recovers basically flawlessly from running out of batteries.
I switched from MacOS to Linux for my personal computer.
I find I enjoy my Linux laptop a lot (the i3 Window Manager is amazing). However, there are two things I really miss from MacOS: iMessage and AirDrop.
I find I enjoy my Linux laptop a lot (the i3 Window Manager is amazing). However, there are two things I really miss from MacOS: iMessage and AirDrop.
I bought a 17" Dell laptop with Ubuntu and have no plans to go back after 10 years on OSX. It's got everything I need and I can open it up to improve it more.
It's also huge, which I kinda like now...but that huge comes with the ability to have 3 disks, a huge replaceable battery, 8 cores and 64gb of RAM.
There's a slight learning curve to using Linux as your daily driver but it's hard to go back once you figure it out.
It's also huge, which I kinda like now...but that huge comes with the ability to have 3 disks, a huge replaceable battery, 8 cores and 64gb of RAM.
There's a slight learning curve to using Linux as your daily driver but it's hard to go back once you figure it out.
I don't believe this press release indicates which ports the laptop has. I assumed that meant it had a crappy selection, and further googling proves correct - 4 Thunderbolts and a headphone jack.
In my eyes, that makes it a non-starter for an alleged "Pro" laptop. For the professional work I do, an SD card reader (for photos and video), HDMI/DisplayPort (for presentations, either in the boardroom or better viewing of photos and videos), USB A (because thumb drives), and for my specific work, an ethernet jack, are all required to do my job. Also magsafe power is a lifesaver.
I'll be holding onto my 2014 15" until it's cold and dead. And if Apple still doesn't have a suitable replacement, Lenovo likely will still have great pro laptops.
In my eyes, that makes it a non-starter for an alleged "Pro" laptop. For the professional work I do, an SD card reader (for photos and video), HDMI/DisplayPort (for presentations, either in the boardroom or better viewing of photos and videos), USB A (because thumb drives), and for my specific work, an ethernet jack, are all required to do my job. Also magsafe power is a lifesaver.
I'll be holding onto my 2014 15" until it's cold and dead. And if Apple still doesn't have a suitable replacement, Lenovo likely will still have great pro laptops.
Please give the same keyboard at the less than $1500 price point on the regular MacBook models. Also, give us ports and please stop with the thinner == better. This is a great step but I’m not spending $2600 on a new machine.
A good guess would be that all laptops will get this new keyboard over the next year. There is no benefit to Apple shipping a keyboard that is in a repair program day one (which all of the butterflies are). This new keyboard is not part of the repair program because apparently Apple thinks it will be reliable.
This is thicker than the previous MBP and it starts at $2400, not $2600.
"The escape key is back, which is great." 2 minutes into the video.
Why is the touchbar still a thing. I hit the speaker button inadvertently at least once a day. "Pop!"
Did you know you can rearrange the buttons for the touchbar? System Preferences -> Keyboard -> Customise Control Strip.
My bugbear was hitting the siri button by mistake, I swapped that for a 'do not disturb' button which is harmless when pressed.
My bugbear was hitting the siri button by mistake, I swapped that for a 'do not disturb' button which is harmless when pressed.
The point is we shouldn’t have to be reconfiguring our laptops to make them usable. :/
I’m so over Apple hardware. Just let me hackintosh it.
I’m so over Apple hardware. Just let me hackintosh it.
This is very close in dimensions to the 2015 15" rMBP. The thermals should be much improved.
Thanks for pointing this out! In fact, I was pleasantly surprised to find this 16-inch model is very slightly smaller in each dimension than the 2015 15-inch rMBP.
2019 16-inch, per https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-16/specs/ :
Height: 0.64 inch (1.62 cm), Width: 14.09 inches (35.79 cm), Depth: 9.68 inches (24.59 cm), Weight: 4.3 pounds (2.0 kg)
2015 15-inch, per https://support.apple.com/kb/SP719?locale=en_US :
Height: 0.71 inch (1.8 cm), Width: 14.13 inches (35.89 cm), Depth: 9.73 inches (24.71 cm), Weight: 4.49 pounds (2.04 kg)
2019 16-inch, per https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-16/specs/ :
Height: 0.64 inch (1.62 cm), Width: 14.09 inches (35.79 cm), Depth: 9.68 inches (24.59 cm), Weight: 4.3 pounds (2.0 kg)
2015 15-inch, per https://support.apple.com/kb/SP719?locale=en_US :
Height: 0.71 inch (1.8 cm), Width: 14.13 inches (35.89 cm), Depth: 9.73 inches (24.71 cm), Weight: 4.49 pounds (2.04 kg)
Thicker, Escape Key, larger battery, better keyboard... it's almost as if Jonny Ive has left Apple!
Apple should just release a really really expensive version of the air. That way people looking for a designer laptop have something they can throw too much money at, and the rest of us can have a mbp that makes some allowances for performance.
Edit: I may be overly snarky, but I find it hard to imagine that recent mbp models were not influenced by the social clout that the iphone brought to the apple brand.
Edit: I may be overly snarky, but I find it hard to imagine that recent mbp models were not influenced by the social clout that the iphone brought to the apple brand.
Apple had social clout way before the iPhone. Macs were always expensive.
Apple created a twentieth anniversary Mac (TAM) that cost $7,500 in 1998 and was delivered to your house by a Limo. The driver wore white gloves and hand delivered the TAM.
Apple created a twentieth anniversary Mac (TAM) that cost $7,500 in 1998 and was delivered to your house by a Limo. The driver wore white gloves and hand delivered the TAM.
I'm thrilled that they've rolled back some of the worst post-2015 MBP changes. I'm a vim user, so I was never going to switch to something without a physical escape key. The key travel on the new machines were terrible; it's like typing on a piece of glass. Most importantly -- regardless of whether or not I have an external keyboard plugged in (sometimes I do, right now I don't) -- an internal keyboard needs to be reliable! I'm really glad Apple has seen the light and returned to the reliable scissor switched keys that I'm currently typing on.
My Late 2013 MBP has been serving me well for the last 5 or so years, but I've been wanting to upgrade it ever since 2016 (the battery life is quite poor & the GPU is showing its age). I refused once I saw the changes in the 2016 MBP, and was glad I never bought in after seeing more and more complaints about the machines roll in every subsequent year. I spent the next two years hoping for a redesign & started to give up. As much as I didn't want to, I've been spending the past few months looking at ThinkPads and Dells and mapping out my transition from OS X to Linux.
As much as I love OS X (and I do -- I've been dreading having to leave it), I just could not spend $2000+ dollars on a computer that I was going to have to fight with to make it work like my old one. This is going to be a daily driver, not a novelty or a toy. Yes, I could've remapped my escape key to caps lock. Yes, I could've bought a bigger laptop bag that could fit a small external keyboard. Yes, I could have learned to live with the new key travel. This is all beside the point if you ask me: I shouldn't have to do that.
Frankly, I'd be okay if Apple kept the old model around, as some people (including many commenters above me) have grown to prefer the butterfly keyboard. Maybe some people prefer the extra touch bar space? (I don't see why it has to be one or the other; I remember how many MBP variations/SKUs Apple carried when I started buying MBPs back in 2010.)
Just give me the option to opt out of these things -- even most of these things -- and I'll keep writing you checks. I'm looking forward to doing this in a couple months assuming the reviews on this machine are good.
My Late 2013 MBP has been serving me well for the last 5 or so years, but I've been wanting to upgrade it ever since 2016 (the battery life is quite poor & the GPU is showing its age). I refused once I saw the changes in the 2016 MBP, and was glad I never bought in after seeing more and more complaints about the machines roll in every subsequent year. I spent the next two years hoping for a redesign & started to give up. As much as I didn't want to, I've been spending the past few months looking at ThinkPads and Dells and mapping out my transition from OS X to Linux.
As much as I love OS X (and I do -- I've been dreading having to leave it), I just could not spend $2000+ dollars on a computer that I was going to have to fight with to make it work like my old one. This is going to be a daily driver, not a novelty or a toy. Yes, I could've remapped my escape key to caps lock. Yes, I could've bought a bigger laptop bag that could fit a small external keyboard. Yes, I could have learned to live with the new key travel. This is all beside the point if you ask me: I shouldn't have to do that.
Frankly, I'd be okay if Apple kept the old model around, as some people (including many commenters above me) have grown to prefer the butterfly keyboard. Maybe some people prefer the extra touch bar space? (I don't see why it has to be one or the other; I remember how many MBP variations/SKUs Apple carried when I started buying MBPs back in 2010.)
Just give me the option to opt out of these things -- even most of these things -- and I'll keep writing you checks. I'm looking forward to doing this in a couple months assuming the reviews on this machine are good.
As a fellow vim user, I highly recommend mapping caps lock to escape anyway. It's a huge game changer whether you have a physical escape key or not.
I have a one year old 15” that I’m super bummed about now. It’s a pretty powerful machine w/ 32gb of ram but I wish I could have waited for this.
Problems I currently have that are annoying:
- I miss the 13” air form factor a lot. I knew it would be a trade off for the performance, but using this beast anywhere but on a desk is pretty tough. On a plane you need a first class seat to open it. It gets super super hot with most workloads.
- there is an obnoxious electrical whine coming from the mainboard and it might be the SSD. Lots of videos on YouTube show that the ssd actually makes a lot of noise and almost sounds like it’s a physical disk. Poor manufacturing from Toshiba.
I guess that’s really it. I just wish I could use it on the couch without burning my thighs. I don’t have any qualms with the keyboard or touchbar. I have caps lock remapped to escape so that doesn’t bug me. Also the touchbar is in “old school mode” or whatever so it looks like a regular function key bar on a non touchbar Mac.
Problems I currently have that are annoying:
- I miss the 13” air form factor a lot. I knew it would be a trade off for the performance, but using this beast anywhere but on a desk is pretty tough. On a plane you need a first class seat to open it. It gets super super hot with most workloads.
- there is an obnoxious electrical whine coming from the mainboard and it might be the SSD. Lots of videos on YouTube show that the ssd actually makes a lot of noise and almost sounds like it’s a physical disk. Poor manufacturing from Toshiba.
I guess that’s really it. I just wish I could use it on the couch without burning my thighs. I don’t have any qualms with the keyboard or touchbar. I have caps lock remapped to escape so that doesn’t bug me. Also the touchbar is in “old school mode” or whatever so it looks like a regular function key bar on a non touchbar Mac.
for whatever reason wishing for anything different always gets downvotes for Apple.
I like the changes. I wish they would target weight next. 2kg is nearly twice as heavy as the same size LG Gram and 33% heavier than then 17" LG Geam.
No, I don't want an LG Gram but I would love a lighter 16" MacBook Pro.
I like the changes. I wish they would target weight next. 2kg is nearly twice as heavy as the same size LG Gram and 33% heavier than then 17" LG Geam.
No, I don't want an LG Gram but I would love a lighter 16" MacBook Pro.
Boy, every new Apple laptop release people harp endlessly about the cost.
Look, people, Apple high-end laptops generally cost $3-4K. And if you think that's high, you're forgetting that (in many of our cases) you're running your whole business on that.
$3-4K every couple of years should be in the noise. Cost relative to other laptops has little meaning, if you want high-end Apple gear.
Look, people, Apple high-end laptops generally cost $3-4K. And if you think that's high, you're forgetting that (in many of our cases) you're running your whole business on that.
$3-4K every couple of years should be in the noise. Cost relative to other laptops has little meaning, if you want high-end Apple gear.
The line about the “Apple-designed rubber dome” sticks out. Why even say that? Did Apple not design the other bits? My sympathy for whomever over there is trying to navigate the whole keyboard situation and messaging.
Why does it still have an aux port? I thought Apple had courage.
It doesn't cost anything in this form factor, and laptop users are more likely to use corded headphones, rather than earbuds.
Its really weird that removing basic functionality is seen as courageous.
Why does every Apple promo read like a Trump speech or propaganda out of North Korea? "Most superlatives ever!" Am I being facetious? This kind of excessive language - every single time - is actually a big turnoff to trusting Apple's product announcements. With such excessive adjectives, I can't take it seriously.
With such excessive adjectives, I can't take it seriously.
Oh, but you trust every word of the press releases issued by other companies? C'mon, it's a press release, not a canonical religious document.
Oh, but you trust every word of the press releases issued by other companies? C'mon, it's a press release, not a canonical religious document.
Well at least it's not 3000USD as was rumored :)
Fin-all-y, Apple. Took you 4 years to release a notebook with a sensible keyboard.
Sass aside, thank you. I'm very pleased!
Sass aside, thank you. I'm very pleased!
It is unfortunate to see the jump from 16 GB to 32 GB of ram cost so much. I realize this isn't anything new for Apple, but I would have hoped for the base 16-inch model to have 32 GB at this point.
But can you buy it WITHOUT a touch bar?
What's the best option for getting rid of a 2016-18 mbp?
Do you think they'll do direct swaps when our keyboards fail?
My only hope now is that my current MBP fails and i can get a new one under apple care.
The big problem with the Touch Bar for me is the difficulty building muscle memory because it's only used part of the time. I have to learn 2 workflows "Docked" and roving. Since for me I spend so much more time docked, the Touch Bar patterns never get added to my muscle memory. If there was a Touch Bar based external keyboard I would at least have the chance to try it full time.
Not a ton of new information presented here, but it is nice to hear that the reviewer quite likes the new keyboard.
I've been scared away from Apple for some time. It started with the touch function keys, then the butterfly keyboard, reducing ports, reducing the machine to near throw-away status when the warranty is up, while remaining very expensive. Never say never but I don't see anything here worth pulling me back, when their are PC laptops that could do the job just as good, perhaps better.
Windows development -- specially if you develop with a terminal editor -- has become very feasible with WSL.
I was scared away from Apple by the keyboards and found a new dev home in Windows. I've tried to go back for personal projects, but it's just too much conversion for very little compensation.
I think I'm done with Apple macs
I was scared away from Apple by the keyboards and found a new dev home in Windows. I've tried to go back for personal projects, but it's just too much conversion for very little compensation.
I think I'm done with Apple macs
I'm not a fan of Apple but there are a few things I like of this laptop. Starting with the most important:
- It's got no number pad, so the screen, the keyboard and the touch pad are aligned with the nose of the user, which doesn't have to shift the laptop to the right to work and have 2/3 of the screen to his/her right.
- It's got a slightly larger screen than my HP ZBook but it's narrower and lighter: 14.09 inches (35.79 cm) and 4.3 pounds (2.0 kg)
- It can go up to 8 TB of storage and 64 GB of RAM (but there are laptops with 128 GB in 2019).
I didn't investigate if it can be upgraded (RAM and SSD) or if everything is soldered.
- It's got no number pad, so the screen, the keyboard and the touch pad are aligned with the nose of the user, which doesn't have to shift the laptop to the right to work and have 2/3 of the screen to his/her right.
- It's got a slightly larger screen than my HP ZBook but it's narrower and lighter: 14.09 inches (35.79 cm) and 4.3 pounds (2.0 kg)
- It can go up to 8 TB of storage and 64 GB of RAM (but there are laptops with 128 GB in 2019).
I didn't investigate if it can be upgraded (RAM and SSD) or if everything is soldered.
"The 16-inch MacBook Pro features a new Magic Keyboard with a refined scissor mechanism that delivers 1mm of key travel and a stable key feel, as well as an Apple-designed rubber dome that stores more potential energy for a responsive key press"
Wow..
Wow..
I had the displeasure to have a quick go on a new Macbook Air.
I decided after some testing that I prefer the keyboard on my calculator.
Then I had to ask what the point was of making a laptop so thin that it can't have any real ports, then having to carry a bag full of adapters?
I'll stick with my Thinkpad T480
I decided after some testing that I prefer the keyboard on my calculator.
Then I had to ask what the point was of making a laptop so thin that it can't have any real ports, then having to carry a bag full of adapters?
I'll stick with my Thinkpad T480
Totally agreed. My T480s is an amazing machine. High performance, great keyboard, every imaginable port (RJ45!), excellent battery life. I can't believe it doesn't get more love.
> You can spec this machine up to 64GB of RAM and 8TB (not a typo) of storage on the SSD. That’s just a massive amount of storage — and it will cost $6,099 to get a fully loaded 16-inch MacBook Pro.
Wow, that is a lot of computer. Even the base model is 16gb and 512gb.
Wow, that is a lot of computer. Even the base model is 16gb and 512gb.
I urge everyone to remember Apples actions regarding HK protests,specifically how they are able to remove an app from the store, without any easy way to side load it on devices.
Also keep in mind that warranty and repairs on Mac products are a complete ripoff.
Also keep in mind that warranty and repairs on Mac products are a complete ripoff.
Looks like an upgrade, for sure. I'd look at it if they did a few more things:
1) Ryzen Options; Icelake Options 2) Regular USB 3 Ports and 3.5mm Jack 3) Make the Touchbar Optional. 4) Do not solder stuff to the Board.
1) Ryzen Options; Icelake Options 2) Regular USB 3 Ports and 3.5mm Jack 3) Make the Touchbar Optional. 4) Do not solder stuff to the Board.
This is too irresistible not to upgrade. I'm more interested in CPU/Memory and the Graphic card bump is only $100. In total, it should cost $3.900 excluding taxes (or $2.500 if I "trade in" my current machine). Looking at the competition, a ThinkPad P53 Mobile Workstation with the 2.3Ghz processor / 32GB of RAM will cost $3.759.
I think the pricing is very competitive, given that the ThinkPad is a giant box. So even if Lenovo lowers its price in the next iteration of its ThinkPad, the MacbookPro will quite match up.
Kudos for Apple for doing this!
I think the pricing is very competitive, given that the ThinkPad is a giant box. So even if Lenovo lowers its price in the next iteration of its ThinkPad, the MacbookPro will quite match up.
Kudos for Apple for doing this!
[deleted]
Still wish it had a touch screen. The physical escape key is nice. The fact I can hackintosh a touch screen dell xps to see if my app's gestures work etc is just so crazy why they won't give in.
Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21523736
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21526058 has few comments but points to a long interview with Phil Schiller that has some interesting things but (brace yourself) says basically nothing about the touch bar.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21526058 has few comments but points to a long interview with Phil Schiller that has some interesting things but (brace yourself) says basically nothing about the touch bar.
I’m going to wait on this until at least a few months have elapsed and the reviews / forums indicate the keyboard is fine.
It's nice to see Apple fixing their keyboard issues (they don't normally bow to customer pressure).
I just wish they would allow Linux to be installed natively on it (with supported touchbar drivers, etc.).
And a small part of me secretly wants Apple to release a MBP with a TrackPoint, just to see people's reactions ;-)
I just wish they would allow Linux to be installed natively on it (with supported touchbar drivers, etc.).
And a small part of me secretly wants Apple to release a MBP with a TrackPoint, just to see people's reactions ;-)
All those specs and yet only has 802.11ac, and not 802.11ax?
Something I found hilarious:
I just clicked through to the purchasing page, and at the top there is this:
"Get a refund of up to $2530 when you trade in an eligible computer, or recycle it for free.*"
If you click it, it asks you to choose if your trade in was made by Apple, or "Other" - if you select "Other", it says:
"Based on what you’ve told us, your computer is ready to recycle"
Beneath, not so hilariously, there was:
"It’s a big win for the planet. Recycling your device helps replenish resources and drive innovation."
Come on, this is marketing spin at it's worst, and not the kind of thing I'd expect a "hipster" company like Apple to say!
I just clicked through to the purchasing page, and at the top there is this:
"Get a refund of up to $2530 when you trade in an eligible computer, or recycle it for free.*"
If you click it, it asks you to choose if your trade in was made by Apple, or "Other" - if you select "Other", it says:
"Based on what you’ve told us, your computer is ready to recycle"
Beneath, not so hilariously, there was:
"It’s a big win for the planet. Recycling your device helps replenish resources and drive innovation."
Come on, this is marketing spin at it's worst, and not the kind of thing I'd expect a "hipster" company like Apple to say!
$2800 in USA and $3600 (€3200) in Europe. "Inspiring" difference... Maybe it will be less expensive to order from the USA...
US prices don’t include tax, EU prices do. Compare the ex vat price to the US price.
This looks really nice and I want one, but 1mm of key travel doesn't seem like something to brag about. I know it's a personal preference thing, but 1mm ?
The "Inverted-T" arrow keys here are way better than the previous version with full-height Left/Right but half-height Up/Down.
But I've always preferred the "6-key" layout, as seen on ThinkPads. Half-height arrow keys, but then an additional key on top of both Left and Right.
Commonly marked as Page Up / Page Down, but easily reconfigurable to 2 additional arbitrary hotkeys.
Looks nice and symmetrical enough for Apple. Wish they would use it.
But I've always preferred the "6-key" layout, as seen on ThinkPads. Half-height arrow keys, but then an additional key on top of both Left and Right.
Commonly marked as Page Up / Page Down, but easily reconfigurable to 2 additional arbitrary hotkeys.
Looks nice and symmetrical enough for Apple. Wish they would use it.
RAM and HD are still soldered down, which means you have to decide up front how much you want and you have to pay the 3x-4x Apple markup on both. These are both dealbreakers for me, and the continuing inadequate port situation just seals the deal. It's a no.
Still using Intel though.
I like it, finally Apple although I’ll still wait for the 13” to downsize (the touchbar is still just an excuse to drive the price up.)
The real issue here is the intel chip. New vulnerabilities have just been found and the company isn’t addressing them so I’m starting to question the platform.
What about an AMD machine. It would be cooler, slower yet un-throttled so about the same performance. But it wouldn’t be a sitting duck.
The real issue here is the intel chip. New vulnerabilities have just been found and the company isn’t addressing them so I’m starting to question the platform.
What about an AMD machine. It would be cooler, slower yet un-throttled so about the same performance. But it wouldn’t be a sitting duck.
"Bigger, better, and more broken than ever before."
(Disclosure: My 2017 MBP has been repaired 8x and replaced 1x. My iPhone repaired 1x and replaced 1x.)
(Disclosure: My 2017 MBP has been repaired 8x and replaced 1x. My iPhone repaired 1x and replaced 1x.)
So Apple made a decent MacBook Pro again. Good. But they still haven't made things right for the lemon they sold me. My keyboard is still not working, even after I handed it in for repair twice. Now I'm expected to shell out a few more grand just to have a working f key, and Apple is not even willing to acknowledge that they for years sold faulty products to gullible idiots like me.
Would it really hurt their octibajillion dollar valuation too much to just make things right for the customers who got shafted by their broken keyboard design?
Would it really hurt their octibajillion dollar valuation too much to just make things right for the customers who got shafted by their broken keyboard design?
Big plus to regain the Escape key.
Hopefully the new keyboard is reliable.
The Touch Bar is forgettable and a row of physical function keys would be an improvement. I don't know any "pro" user who likes the Touch Bar or who wants to look down at the keys when typing or interact with a microscopic touch screen.
Still puzzled by the lack of ports for a pro laptop. It's 16" with a huge body, not particularly thin or light, and they couldn't add two USB-A, SD slot, HDMI? The age of a dozen dongles continues.
64GB RAM option is a big plus, though the prices are 2x-3x market.
Presumably the SSD is still soldered onboard, which basically makes these unrepairable and disposable premium priced laptops.
Overall far better than what it replaced, but still missing some key features from the 2015 MBP line which remains the best Mac laptop ever made.
Will be interesting to see if they ditch the 13" and move to a 14" with similar specs.
Hopefully the new keyboard is reliable.
The Touch Bar is forgettable and a row of physical function keys would be an improvement. I don't know any "pro" user who likes the Touch Bar or who wants to look down at the keys when typing or interact with a microscopic touch screen.
Still puzzled by the lack of ports for a pro laptop. It's 16" with a huge body, not particularly thin or light, and they couldn't add two USB-A, SD slot, HDMI? The age of a dozen dongles continues.
64GB RAM option is a big plus, though the prices are 2x-3x market.
Presumably the SSD is still soldered onboard, which basically makes these unrepairable and disposable premium priced laptops.
Overall far better than what it replaced, but still missing some key features from the 2015 MBP line which remains the best Mac laptop ever made.
Will be interesting to see if they ditch the 13" and move to a 14" with similar specs.
I'm a bit surprised no one has talked about the price. Starting at 2400$US? That's... a lot.
For anyone who is going to use this as their primary computer, the real price is 2800$.
That's a lot... Who is the end consumer here? Folks who are computer illiterate and want 'the best' laptop apple has to offer?
Laptops promote poor posture, can't match desktop speeds and are expensive! Their use-case to me is limited to business people who hop from meeting to meeting all day, but then you don't need the horsepower and will be fine with a 500$ option.
For anyone who is going to use this as their primary computer, the real price is 2800$.
That's a lot... Who is the end consumer here? Folks who are computer illiterate and want 'the best' laptop apple has to offer?
Laptops promote poor posture, can't match desktop speeds and are expensive! Their use-case to me is limited to business people who hop from meeting to meeting all day, but then you don't need the horsepower and will be fine with a 500$ option.
I love the USB C/Thunderbolt 3 connector on my Macbook. I just have a single cable going into my mac from the display which also has the keyboard and mouse connected to it. The single cable does charging, display and peripherals.
For work, I have this display: LG 5K2k (https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-34WK95U-W-ultrawide-monito...)
For a cheaper setup at home: LG 27inch USB C Monitor(https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-27UK850-W-4k-uhd-led-monit...)
For work, I have this display: LG 5K2k (https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-34WK95U-W-ultrawide-monito...)
For a cheaper setup at home: LG 27inch USB C Monitor(https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-27UK850-W-4k-uhd-led-monit...)
I’m kind of amazed that people want a better laptop speaker. I feel that’s like the one thing that could be just decent and nobody would complain. Everybody I see either uses headphones or a bluetooth speaker.
How can one use a laptop for several hours every day without developing neck pain!?
Ah yes, nothing says satisfying like 1mm of key travel
Imagine being excited for this...
Hmm, so they improved the keyboard? Kinda makes me wish I'd waited a bit longer to buy a MacBook Pro, since I think I would have preferred this version of the keyboard to the one on the version I'm using right now.
Still, the important thing is that Apple seemingly listened to feedback. Too many double down on bad decisions regardless of feedback.
Still, the important thing is that Apple seemingly listened to feedback. Too many double down on bad decisions regardless of feedback.
Is it me or this laptop is eye-wateringly expensive? I'm no Mac noob but it's getting a little hard to justify the expense to stay in the ecosystem.
It costs the same as the 15" did while starting at a much better base configuration, so if anything it's nice that they didn't felt like increasing the price.
I do wonder how the prices stalk up historically, adjusted for inflation. Flagship iPhones apparently are getting more expensive[1].
[1]: https://digg.com/2018/iphone-prices
[1]: https://digg.com/2018/iphone-prices
The stock configurations are exactly the same price as the 15" used to be, but now with double the storage. So it's actually better value now than it was.
and... I'm feeling it because I just bought the 15" $2799 model 5 months ago, couldn't justify the extra $ on a 1TB model, and now it's built in. :/
No NVIDIA GPU means No CUDA :(
Pricing is shot across the bow to Lenovo: higher end configs of Carbon X1 Extreme have similar prices, even though they aren't really comparable in terms of brand recognition and in some aspects of hardware quality. Good. Then there's also the fact that X1 Extreme is troublesome when it comes to Linux compatibility, so if you want a proper Unix-like experience, Mac is still one of the best options, although Microsoft is really trying nowadays. If someone from Lenovo is reading this: I like Carbon X1. I'd buy X1 Extreme if it ran Linux as well as plain X1 does. I'm not price sensitive. But Windows is not really viable for me when it comes to professional use.
Looks like Apple will be getting another $3K or so of my money 6 months from now after other people beta test the new MBP for bugs.
Looks like Apple will be getting another $3K or so of my money 6 months from now after other people beta test the new MBP for bugs.
It just seems like, for people who aren't wealthy, it might make more sense to buy a gaming laptop and get very close to or better specs/performance and save $500 or maybe even $1000.
Although I guess the reason people waste money like that is partly just to prove they can waste money.
Still waiting for the 14”
Awesome, can I get this but 12" and without the touchbar? In fact can I just get a 12" powerbook with new guts?
Imagine they offered the same configuration with and without TouchBar, with the model with TouchBar costing $400 more - how many people would choose the model with? I bet less than 5%.
Is Apple afraid to offer this because it clearly would show that almost no one is ready to pay for it?
Even from this audience, who of you would be willing to pay the premium for the TouchBar?
Is Apple afraid to offer this because it clearly would show that almost no one is ready to pay for it?
Even from this audience, who of you would be willing to pay the premium for the TouchBar?
Where did you get the $400 number from? That feels ridiculous (50% the cost of a new Macbook Air).
Back when they first introduced the Touchbar they offered MBPs in both configurations and the price difference was $400 for the same model with and w/o the Touchbar.
[deleted]
Didn't the non-touchbar version have lower specs? I'm pretty sure I tried speccing the other one to the same level and the price difference was very small.
People in here would probably pay not to have to deal with the TouchBar at all.
I would pay a premium for NOT having a touch bar. I want physical keys for brightness/volume etc.
Same for me. I would easily pay $100 to NOT have the TouchBar.
I wonder if they fixed the trackpad? The previous trackpad's palm rejection never worked properly.
It always surprised me how broken the palm rejection was on the recent MacBook Pro since previous models (2012-2015) running the same macOS version had no such issues; moreover, palm rejection also works fine on the iPad and iPhone.
It always surprised me how broken the palm rejection was on the recent MacBook Pro since previous models (2012-2015) running the same macOS version had no such issues; moreover, palm rejection also works fine on the iPad and iPhone.
Off topic, but can someone explain to my why their releases start this way:
> Cupertino, California — Apple today unveiled an all-new 16-inch MacBook Pro — the world’s best pro notebook
It’s on apple.com for fuck’s sake and if you don’t know that Apple is based in California, do you really care? Why do they write this stuff as if it’s some other entity writing about Apple as opposed to “today we are pleased to announce...”?
> Cupertino, California — Apple today unveiled an all-new 16-inch MacBook Pro — the world’s best pro notebook
It’s on apple.com for fuck’s sake and if you don’t know that Apple is based in California, do you really care? Why do they write this stuff as if it’s some other entity writing about Apple as opposed to “today we are pleased to announce...”?
It's a press release.
The idea is that press releases that look like articles make lazy journalists less critical. Because the phrasing is already very similar to the end result the journalist has to produce, the path of least resistance is to simply copy as much as possible. Lots of big comapanies do this nowadays.
Exactly.
It's a press release. These are conventions used in press releases: mentioning the location, using the third person, etc.
When they get rid of the touchbar that's when I'll upgrade from my 2013 MBP and not a day sooner.
As much as I appreciate Apple's U turn on the idiotic design of the butterfly keyboard switches, I still:
- cannot even begin to understand why these things lack an important usability feature like MegSafe: there is really absolutely no reason why it cannot coexist with the ThunderBolt I/O (4 TB ports, one MegSafe: charge it however the heck you want).
- find the presence of the castrated TouchBar an offense to users. It seems they just want to shove it down our throats whether we want it or not. Just make it optional: I'm sure that there are certain users out there that love it but every single peer of mine [1] hates the sole idea of something like that.
[1] I'm a software guy in the Valley
- cannot even begin to understand why these things lack an important usability feature like MegSafe: there is really absolutely no reason why it cannot coexist with the ThunderBolt I/O (4 TB ports, one MegSafe: charge it however the heck you want).
- find the presence of the castrated TouchBar an offense to users. It seems they just want to shove it down our throats whether we want it or not. Just make it optional: I'm sure that there are certain users out there that love it but every single peer of mine [1] hates the sole idea of something like that.
[1] I'm a software guy in the Valley
This would be amazing.
FWIW I just came up with the idea of a magsafe adapter for male and female USB-C, and it turns out it already exists for $23 on Amazon. I ordered one.
https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector-Quick-Char...
https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector-Quick-Char...
“ The new Magic Keyboard also features a physical Escape key” - really? It was there as a physical escape key, Apple removed it, put it back in and called it, wait for it ... a physical Escape Key.
The Touch Bar is still there and horrible. The price on the 16" model is downright insane. Add some customizations past the bare bottom and you are up in the stratosphere.
I'll be sticking with my 13" 2015 MBP for the foreseeable future. I'll just build up a home machine that I can log into and do some heavier workloads on.
I'll be sticking with my 13" 2015 MBP for the foreseeable future. I'll just build up a home machine that I can log into and do some heavier workloads on.
How long until they walk back the touchbar though? I figure if it was useful to anyone it would be cloned by now. I cant imagine they're holding onto that feature for any other reason than to save face.
There have been multiple variations in other laptops. How successful they are, I can't comment on.
Screen in touchpad: https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/p/asus-zenbook-14-ux434fl-ub...
Screen above keyboard: https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/p/asus-zenbook-pro-duo-lapto...
Screen in touchpad: https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/p/asus-zenbook-14-ux434fl-ub...
Screen above keyboard: https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/p/asus-zenbook-pro-duo-lapto...
About time!
The current MacBook pros are a menace for the sounds those keyboards make alone.
I was stunned that no one at Apple heard that ridiculously obnoxious CLACK CLACK CLACKING and didn't think we would do something about that.
Does anyone inside Apple know how that disaster of a keyboard came to be? How did logic and rationality not see it turfed the moment it was trialled?
(This new keyboard claims to be quieter. Although calling it "magic" is just so pretentious and so.. Apple)
I was stunned that no one at Apple heard that ridiculously obnoxious CLACK CLACK CLACKING and didn't think we would do something about that.
Does anyone inside Apple know how that disaster of a keyboard came to be? How did logic and rationality not see it turfed the moment it was trialled?
(This new keyboard claims to be quieter. Although calling it "magic" is just so pretentious and so.. Apple)
I paid $4k for a 2017 Macbook Pro and if I want to trade-in this device to get a new one, I am getting only $1k. This is bullshit.
I bought one. If they hadn’t produced this I would have walked on Apple hardware. The only thing that is jaw dropping to me: the price tag.
I’m surprised to not see people talking about it in the comments. 3900 US without Apple care? Holy god. I bought the max spec or close to it in 2015 for 800+$ less. The differences are negligible, and then I spent an additional 200$ on dongles I don’t want. I’m probably not done. When all was said and done I spent 4600$ on this machine. I make my living on a computer and I need the pro part of the MacBook Pro, but it is still a really jaw dropping price for what it is.
I’m surprised to not see people talking about it in the comments. 3900 US without Apple care? Holy god. I bought the max spec or close to it in 2015 for 800+$ less. The differences are negligible, and then I spent an additional 200$ on dongles I don’t want. I’m probably not done. When all was said and done I spent 4600$ on this machine. I make my living on a computer and I need the pro part of the MacBook Pro, but it is still a really jaw dropping price for what it is.
Total difference in cost? ~1500$. That seems a ridiculous difference for modest hardware improvement and the requisite gaggle of adapters. I’m happy with the machine, but it’s probably 500$ more than what I would have been comfortable paying for the hardware. In the past I remember feeling like what I was getting was worth it. In this case I feel price gouged.
Configured with 8 TB? That is more than they allow you to purchase with iCloud... wonder how that will break things
About bloody time, Apple.
Too bad I bought a ThinkPad back in June after THREE YEARS of ESC'less computing. This after almost two decades of not even looking at non-Mac machines.
Too bad I bought a ThinkPad back in June after THREE YEARS of ESC'less computing. This after almost two decades of not even looking at non-Mac machines.
I am really stoked about this. I am typing this on a 15 inch MB Pro. I survived the keyboard issues by not buying a new MB Pro.
There is always this lurking sense that if my existing MB Pro dies, that I would have to transition to something with a defect.
This new model has piqued my interest. I am excited to see that it has a bump in memory. That has always been something that has not sat well with me. Newer software demanding more and more memory while models of the MB Pro has been released with no increases in RAM.
There is always this lurking sense that if my existing MB Pro dies, that I would have to transition to something with a defect.
This new model has piqued my interest. I am excited to see that it has a bump in memory. That has always been something that has not sat well with me. Newer software demanding more and more memory while models of the MB Pro has been released with no increases in RAM.
I simply don't get it. NH reader base are usually well versed in technology and as such we should expect them to get some attitude towards their computer.
We have basically a computer which will never allow you to install what you want except if that software is signed by apple in a process taking 1 minute and said to garantee an extra level of security (how this process is able to check on any security issue in 1 minute is beyond my understanding) to user.
So they simply lose the ability to install anhthing not signed by apple. Old programs, a ton of open source programs. If Apple decide tomorrow to stop its signin program (and it will happen soon or later), user will be basically stuck with a computer limited to install Mac Appstore Software.
This is as significant as the fact there was a nodejs issue regarding the inability of the team behind it to distribute new release of nodejs because apple server simply refused to sign the package that contained the binary.
Apple computers are destined to become giant iPhone once apple decide to ditch apple notarization program, and the user will be leftwith absolutelly no control of what's happen in their computer like what is the case in ios device.
How someone with technical education can be satisfied with such scenario is beyond me. AApple computer are simply becoming Grandma computer.
We have basically a computer which will never allow you to install what you want except if that software is signed by apple in a process taking 1 minute and said to garantee an extra level of security (how this process is able to check on any security issue in 1 minute is beyond my understanding) to user.
So they simply lose the ability to install anhthing not signed by apple. Old programs, a ton of open source programs. If Apple decide tomorrow to stop its signin program (and it will happen soon or later), user will be basically stuck with a computer limited to install Mac Appstore Software.
This is as significant as the fact there was a nodejs issue regarding the inability of the team behind it to distribute new release of nodejs because apple server simply refused to sign the package that contained the binary.
Apple computers are destined to become giant iPhone once apple decide to ditch apple notarization program, and the user will be leftwith absolutelly no control of what's happen in their computer like what is the case in ios device.
How someone with technical education can be satisfied with such scenario is beyond me. AApple computer are simply becoming Grandma computer.
Sorry, that keyboard has screwed me too many times.
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When does a 14" mbp come out?
Wow, there's only one kind of sleeve: Made of leather (non-vegan) and quite expensive. Bummer!
```
def test_apple_is_back_for_pros():
def test_apple_is_back_for_pros():
16_mbp = 16MBP()
16_mbp_specs = 16_mbp.specs
self.assertTrue(16_mbp_specs.thicker)
self.assertTrue(16_mbp_specs.escape_key)
self.assertTrue(16_mbp_specs.larger_battery)
self.assertTrue(16_mbp_specs.better_kb)
I'm still using the last Macbook Pro without a touchbar, and plan on not upgrading until either this dies, or Apple decide to make a laptop with a full keyboard. If it dies before that, it's Hackintosh or Linux time.
It honestly astounds me that the device that has traditionally been adopted most by developers has lost so much of what developers need in favour of gimmicks.
It honestly astounds me that the device that has traditionally been adopted most by developers has lost so much of what developers need in favour of gimmicks.
As a developer I rarely use the function keys, I only need it for debugging purposes. I much prefer ergonmic keyboards, so I rarely use the one on my laptops. But whether it's Windows/Linux/MacOS I rarely require the function keys. As a mechanical keyboard enthusiast I have them in a different layer for the rare occasion that I actually "need" them. I have far less gripe with having my mousehand of the keyboard when debugging than I do when typing regularly.
You can easily use a tool like https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/ or `brew cask install karabiner-elements` to remap fn + number keyrow to be the function keys.
Offtopic: Typing this on a Redox Wireless keyboard, it's great for developing on. It's a split ergonomic columnly staggered ortholinear keyboard, the [] keys are in the middle of the split parts. And you have thumb clusters.
You can easily use a tool like https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/ or `brew cask install karabiner-elements` to remap fn + number keyrow to be the function keys.
Offtopic: Typing this on a Redox Wireless keyboard, it's great for developing on. It's a split ergonomic columnly staggered ortholinear keyboard, the [] keys are in the middle of the split parts. And you have thumb clusters.
Too little too late. By now, Apple has lost me. The only Apple HW I might (theoretically) still buy is a Mac Pro, but not in practice, since you can't get it with a 32-bit capable OS any more. So fuck Apple. I'll have to get Windoze hardware and put a BSD Unix on it.
I don't get it why they remove the full size left and right arrow key?
good thing that john ivey has left apple.. this is a good direction change.
Over 1500 comments and not a single word that MATLAB runs 2x faster on this new Mac than before.
Interesting that the tag line is "world's best". I feel as though they usually go with something more quantitative like "fastest" or "most powerful", etc. "Best" obviously being completely subjective.
I think the next logical step for Apple is to use textual analysis on this HN thread to optimise for what the following change should be...
I’m so happy about all the keyboard changes.
Wouah , what a nice price! How do thzy people buying at such jigh price tage? Always amazed... even if the software and hardware are really great!
Feels like they claim "best typing experience" every time they release a new laptop.