Scientists grow bigger monkey brains using human genes, replicating evolution(interestingengineering.com)
interestingengineering.com
Scientists grow bigger monkey brains using human genes, replicating evolution
https://interestingengineering.com/scientists-grow-bigger-monkey-brains-using-human-genes-replicating-evolution
383 comments
You're giving nature too much credit. Nature doesn't try and balance life. Nature doesn't care- it throws asteroid impacts and supervolcanos and natural disasters all over the place. Life just happens to be very very resilient and consistently able to jump back and fill new niches. Nature also "created" us - were a product of the universe like everything else. If we are destabilizing, so is nature.
And most scientists do not assume they can blindly mess around. There was a whole section of this article related to ethics, they didn't let the fetus be born (which would definitely have been messing around). They're not trying to "do better" or control nature - they're just trying to understand what makes us tick. This is a mutation that already exists in humans. It might make us human. If anything, that makes nature the one that was blindly messing around.
And most scientists do not assume they can blindly mess around. There was a whole section of this article related to ethics, they didn't let the fetus be born (which would definitely have been messing around). They're not trying to "do better" or control nature - they're just trying to understand what makes us tick. This is a mutation that already exists in humans. It might make us human. If anything, that makes nature the one that was blindly messing around.
However in the exact same vane that "Nature doesn't care"... We as Humans should and DO care.
We are not Nature, and thus these existential defining issues should at least give us some pause to debate and evaluate the moral quandaries and responsibilities that this level of engineering power wields.
We are not Nature, and thus these existential defining issues should at least give us some pause to debate and evaluate the moral quandaries and responsibilities that this level of engineering power wields.
We are very much Nature. Possibly something independent of our own minds exist; we can never really know. Anything worth preserving, caring for, or caring about, is a product of the human mind. The meteor careening into the earth does not feel a moral quandary, but we do, and as such I agree that given our limited knowledge we should care. But we should also pay heed to how ignorant we are: we cannot possibly know how our present actions will play out in the future, the best we can do is try to be compassionate and take care of what we can. The rest is out of our control and hence our sphere of responsibility.
I'm not saying we aren't a product of Nature... I'm saying that the defining trait of man that sets us outside of our natural surroundings is our capability to use intellect, empathy, and morality to guide our decisions.
This is not a tool that "Nature" has in its toolbox. Nature has, natural selection. The random smatterings of dice throws that takes place trillions of times per day over the course of billions of years. The equivalent of throwing paint against the wall for a millennia to eventually recreate a Picasso.
This is not how humans work. Our efforts are efficient (at least more so than Nature's efforts), and when honed and optimized can be made into machines of frighteningly impressive efficiency.
There is certainly a difference between the creative and destructive processes of Man vs Nature.
This is not a tool that "Nature" has in its toolbox. Nature has, natural selection. The random smatterings of dice throws that takes place trillions of times per day over the course of billions of years. The equivalent of throwing paint against the wall for a millennia to eventually recreate a Picasso.
This is not how humans work. Our efforts are efficient (at least more so than Nature's efforts), and when honed and optimized can be made into machines of frighteningly impressive efficiency.
There is certainly a difference between the creative and destructive processes of Man vs Nature.
How can you possibly even say "We are not Nature"?
Of course we are Nature. We came to being the exact same way every other current living species did, thru natural selection. So then how can we be living, as you say, somehow outside this "Nature" you speak of?
Hell, I know I may be in a small minority who says, by definition, nothing that we do is "wrong" because we are simply doing what our brains, which are 100% a product of this Nature, are telling us to do.
Post-modernism is quick to tell us there are no absolute rights and wrongs...that only culture makes it so. So why then can some say that its immoral to create and study these creatures that our nature-created brains have led us to create?
Of course we are Nature. We came to being the exact same way every other current living species did, thru natural selection. So then how can we be living, as you say, somehow outside this "Nature" you speak of?
Hell, I know I may be in a small minority who says, by definition, nothing that we do is "wrong" because we are simply doing what our brains, which are 100% a product of this Nature, are telling us to do.
Post-modernism is quick to tell us there are no absolute rights and wrongs...that only culture makes it so. So why then can some say that its immoral to create and study these creatures that our nature-created brains have led us to create?
In part this is arguing over a definition of nature.
You're going for the obvious "We are part of nature because nature created us and we work within the system." while they're going for the idea of it being more strictly influenced by evolutionary change which we have the ability to 'escape' (escape in the sense that we can go farther than an animal can due to being able to design larger systems without having each step useful).
The definition of "we are of Nature" is essentially "we are of Physics". This is true, but its not really useful.
On your morality lines: Morality is a personal concept in people, but it is influenced by society and the people they interact with. There doesn't have to be some objective right/wrong, and so people can say that the scientists were being immoral (according to the person's own moral ideas). The scientists may very well believe they were being moral, or perhaps they didn't think about it (people do that!)
> that our nature-created brains have led us to create? Well, as stated before, morality isn't the same between humans. There's no objective authority that decides X is right or Y is wrong, simply social/cultural influences throughout the world.
You could view morality as a way that you think the world/people should behave to maximize some value you hold. Perhaps you value sentient life, and so you hold self-sacrifice to save a dozen people to be a moral good as it continues more sentient life.
On your morality lines: Morality is a personal concept in people, but it is influenced by society and the people they interact with. There doesn't have to be some objective right/wrong, and so people can say that the scientists were being immoral (according to the person's own moral ideas). The scientists may very well believe they were being moral, or perhaps they didn't think about it (people do that!)
> that our nature-created brains have led us to create? Well, as stated before, morality isn't the same between humans. There's no objective authority that decides X is right or Y is wrong, simply social/cultural influences throughout the world.
You could view morality as a way that you think the world/people should behave to maximize some value you hold. Perhaps you value sentient life, and so you hold self-sacrifice to save a dozen people to be a moral good as it continues more sentient life.
> Well, as stated before, morality isn't the same between humans. There's no objective authority that decides X is right or Y is wrong, simply social/cultural influences throughout the world.
Worth remembering that it's also not the case that every person has different morality, and everyone's moral values are uniformly distributed across the space of possible values.
No, the moral values of humans are all very strongly correlated, both within and across societies. We spend a lot of time bikeshedding the details, but we essentially have a shared sense of what's right and wrong.
(I hypothesize it's because we all have the same brain architecture - the basic moral sense is encoded in firmware, and through culture we adapt it to fit the environments and societies we live in.)
Worth remembering that it's also not the case that every person has different morality, and everyone's moral values are uniformly distributed across the space of possible values.
No, the moral values of humans are all very strongly correlated, both within and across societies. We spend a lot of time bikeshedding the details, but we essentially have a shared sense of what's right and wrong.
(I hypothesize it's because we all have the same brain architecture - the basic moral sense is encoded in firmware, and through culture we adapt it to fit the environments and societies we live in.)
I would question your point, "that moral values [...] are very strongly correlated [...] across societies".
My favourite example is the Aztecs society.
Moral values were completly different.
Sparta is another example. The Nazi regime in Germany too. Slavery in the US. I could keep going for another hour.
Moral values are highly dependent on you environmental influences.
Nevertheless you are totaly correct, that the majority of people in a single society shares similair views on moral rules.
Sparta is another example. The Nazi regime in Germany too. Slavery in the US. I could keep going for another hour.
Moral values are highly dependent on you environmental influences.
Nevertheless you are totaly correct, that the majority of people in a single society shares similair views on moral rules.
I believe the point is that “the interest of humans is not the same as the interest of nature.” We are part of nature, but not referentially equal.
“Nature” may not care what happens to the human species, but we do!
“Nature” may not care what happens to the human species, but we do!
Exactly. Well said.
You know that's a bullshit excuse because you wouldn't accept it from someone who knowingly caused you serious problems.
This is really an argument about the definition of natural isn’t it. We’re from nature but personally I believe humans are something different. We’re the only animal with choice - that we know of at least, and if you believe in free will, which some people don’t of course.
It's not a matter of what we believe, but it's a matter of facts.
Humans comes from nature, and the building blocks of a human are the same as everything else in the universe (as far as we know).
Recent studies have shown that "choice" is made before we are even conscious of it (so byebye free will?), and no studies have shown that we are the only living creature able to make "choices".
"Humans are special", "Humans are different", "Humans are smarter" is the perfect example of arrogance and ignorance of humans.
Humans comes from nature, and the building blocks of a human are the same as everything else in the universe (as far as we know).
Recent studies have shown that "choice" is made before we are even conscious of it (so byebye free will?), and no studies have shown that we are the only living creature able to make "choices".
"Humans are special", "Humans are different", "Humans are smarter" is the perfect example of arrogance and ignorance of humans.
It is a matter of definitions, and it's a matter of avoiding a fallacy. Just because "we come from nature", doesn't mean we're bound to whatever patterns of behavior we observe in animals, and it especially doesn't mean the "nature" tells us what we should or shouldn't do. The world of non-human living things is a very bad place to look for lessons in morality.
"Humans are different" isn't arrogance, it's observable reality. And we need some words to separate the categories of "things done / caused by humans" vs "things done / caused by everything else" - hence the common meaning of "natural" and "nature".
> the building blocks of a human are the same as everything else in the universe (as far as we know).
Building blocks of everything in the universe are the same, but there's still meaningful difference between things.
"Humans are different" isn't arrogance, it's observable reality. And we need some words to separate the categories of "things done / caused by humans" vs "things done / caused by everything else" - hence the common meaning of "natural" and "nature".
> the building blocks of a human are the same as everything else in the universe (as far as we know).
Building blocks of everything in the universe are the same, but there's still meaningful difference between things.
Humans _are_ special, humans _are_ smarter. While yes we do share common ancestors with chimpanzees and other apes, there is something incredibly different between us and the chimpanzee. I just got off of an airplane thinking how insane it is humans can build these tools.
We humans wield great power over other life. With great power comes great responsibility, and just as much as we should humbly recognize our origins and common ancestors with other life, we should also recognize the immense responsibilities over other life that we have.
We humans wield great power over other life. With great power comes great responsibility, and just as much as we should humbly recognize our origins and common ancestors with other life, we should also recognize the immense responsibilities over other life that we have.
By that definition how is anything ever unnatural? Everything comes from the Big Bang so everything is natural?
Yet you are able to learn, reason and communicate. That potential is why we're not hunters and gatherers still.
Caring isn't fundamentally good or right. It just happens to be a feeling that humans have. We probably have it because it gives our species some advantage over other species. It might be that a more "right" way of behaving is aggressive eugenics to create better life for future humans or even a future species. Animals often do this by killing the runt of their litter or hen-pecking each other to death.
As a human I feel that having morality is very important, but moving all that stuff aside for a second, the only thing in the end that really matters is whether we will cause our own extinction.
Nature took a very long time to get us to where we are, it seems to me that playing with the biological building blocks at this level, relative to nature’s approach, has a very high risk of causing something catastrophic some time in the future.
The IT professional in me would advise to continue no further until a reproducible backup/restore procedure was in place. I’m not sure how exactly that translates to biological systems though.
Also I am currently available for hire :)
Nature took a very long time to get us to where we are, it seems to me that playing with the biological building blocks at this level, relative to nature’s approach, has a very high risk of causing something catastrophic some time in the future.
The IT professional in me would advise to continue no further until a reproducible backup/restore procedure was in place. I’m not sure how exactly that translates to biological systems though.
Also I am currently available for hire :)
I don't give it credit, like it's trying to gain balance, but functioning ecosystems do maintain a balance. Most of our climate problems have come from humans disrupting this.
If you take any functioning healthy ecosystem on earth, one generally less tampered with by humans, you'll find from a microscopic, right up to a macroscopic level, the life in those ecosystems have adapted to function together.
If you want to see some good examples of this, check out some terrarium channels on youtube, there's some really cool, perfectly balanced ones people have had going for years.
The reason why we have so many ecological problems around the world is that humans have been constantly disrupting this. We introduce invasive species that dominate the landscape, cause extinctions and extirpations of native species and change the fundamental balance of the ecosystem.
You're right, life does push through, but personally, I prefer the native songbirds and shrubs that are local to my area than a landscape full of Japanese knotweed and starlings.
And so do most things, that first example likely has at least a dozen species of songbirds, a bunch of shrubs and herbacious plants. That second example has two species, maybe some rats or crows if your lucky.
The thing is, ecosystems don't stand alone, they're all connected and the collapse of one leads to the collapse of the neighbouring ones and so forth.
If you actually look through the published literature.on various ecosystems around the world, we have a very shallow level of knowledge. We don't understand fully the complex connections between everything and the research that does keep coming out keeps showing how much we've vastly underestimated how much our actions have impacted things.
Even things like the ecosystems in our own body's. The microscopic organisms that have been found to even play a part in things such as our decision making and moods.
The human body itself functions as an ecosystem, all our body systems, our cells, our organs, all function independently and cohesively to make everything that is you.
The earth itself functions the same way. The ecosystems, and all life, including humans, are the cells and organs that make up all life on Earth.
Altering life at a fundamental genetic level goes even further than how we alter ecosystems.
Humans really don't understand the potential consequences to changes we make to the genetic code. We have a vague idea, but we really are.delving mostly blind into this. If we barely understand how life works on a macroscopic level, what makes us think we're ready to change it at an even lower level?
If you take any functioning healthy ecosystem on earth, one generally less tampered with by humans, you'll find from a microscopic, right up to a macroscopic level, the life in those ecosystems have adapted to function together.
If you want to see some good examples of this, check out some terrarium channels on youtube, there's some really cool, perfectly balanced ones people have had going for years.
The reason why we have so many ecological problems around the world is that humans have been constantly disrupting this. We introduce invasive species that dominate the landscape, cause extinctions and extirpations of native species and change the fundamental balance of the ecosystem.
You're right, life does push through, but personally, I prefer the native songbirds and shrubs that are local to my area than a landscape full of Japanese knotweed and starlings.
And so do most things, that first example likely has at least a dozen species of songbirds, a bunch of shrubs and herbacious plants. That second example has two species, maybe some rats or crows if your lucky.
The thing is, ecosystems don't stand alone, they're all connected and the collapse of one leads to the collapse of the neighbouring ones and so forth.
If you actually look through the published literature.on various ecosystems around the world, we have a very shallow level of knowledge. We don't understand fully the complex connections between everything and the research that does keep coming out keeps showing how much we've vastly underestimated how much our actions have impacted things.
Even things like the ecosystems in our own body's. The microscopic organisms that have been found to even play a part in things such as our decision making and moods.
The human body itself functions as an ecosystem, all our body systems, our cells, our organs, all function independently and cohesively to make everything that is you.
The earth itself functions the same way. The ecosystems, and all life, including humans, are the cells and organs that make up all life on Earth.
Altering life at a fundamental genetic level goes even further than how we alter ecosystems.
Humans really don't understand the potential consequences to changes we make to the genetic code. We have a vague idea, but we really are.delving mostly blind into this. If we barely understand how life works on a macroscopic level, what makes us think we're ready to change it at an even lower level?
You’re missing survivorship bias - nature didn’t just create these balanced ecosystems, it creates anything that goes, and things that don’t work out just die. Humans ruining earth for themselves is just as natural, just that we might die as result. But life won’t - it’s much more resilient than just one species. Or several.
Following this line of logic you can justify anything. If I kill your entire family, that’s natural. Would you be ok with that?
I think if you accept at all that there is suffering and there is beauty, then you shouldn’t hide behind “everything’s natural” and instead try and have a backbone and stick up for something more.
I think if you accept at all that there is suffering and there is beauty, then you shouldn’t hide behind “everything’s natural” and instead try and have a backbone and stick up for something more.
That's the point: naturalism can justify anything, and that makes it a poor guiding principle. As do many other things.
There are many natural things that are good. Clean air, unique little ecosystems like GP describes, endless variety -- and we should strive to respect and preserve those, but not because they are natural. Poor animals teeming with parasites, population "balance" maintained through periodic overpopulation and starvation (How do people think it happens? Forest fairies tell the deer how many babies to have?), predators feasting on the organs of their prey while the prey is still alive. All these things are natural but not good and we should not seek to replicate them.
There are many natural things that are good. Clean air, unique little ecosystems like GP describes, endless variety -- and we should strive to respect and preserve those, but not because they are natural. Poor animals teeming with parasites, population "balance" maintained through periodic overpopulation and starvation (How do people think it happens? Forest fairies tell the deer how many babies to have?), predators feasting on the organs of their prey while the prey is still alive. All these things are natural but not good and we should not seek to replicate them.
> population "balance" maintained through periodic overpopulation and starvation (How do people think it happens? Forest fairies tell the deer how many babies to have?)
Thinking about this, I just realized a simple thing: balance in animal population via starvation might not be as grim as we expect (i.e. it happens completely because the weakest/least fit individuals cannot compete for food and literally starve).
The sexual reproductive system is apparently one of the things that stops working earliest when you're affected by disease or malnutrition. This means that malnourished deers will just start having fewer/no babies while they're being famished.
Still grim, because lots of animals would starve, and still very uncomfortable for the deers which, even if they might survive to "old age", will fail to breed due to starvation... but still better than the alternative in which every baby deer gets born in the world as usual, only to then starve to death while they're still very young.
Thinking about this, I just realized a simple thing: balance in animal population via starvation might not be as grim as we expect (i.e. it happens completely because the weakest/least fit individuals cannot compete for food and literally starve).
The sexual reproductive system is apparently one of the things that stops working earliest when you're affected by disease or malnutrition. This means that malnourished deers will just start having fewer/no babies while they're being famished.
Still grim, because lots of animals would starve, and still very uncomfortable for the deers which, even if they might survive to "old age", will fail to breed due to starvation... but still better than the alternative in which every baby deer gets born in the world as usual, only to then starve to death while they're still very young.
It's still very grim if you recognize that animals - particularly advanced animals like deer - feel and suffer. Also makes you wonder if the fragility of reproductive system wrt. malnutrition isn't an evolutionary adaptation that smooths out the population crash a little bit after hitting the carrying capacity of a niche.
(Also: many (most?) living things have things that eat them, which is another population maintenance mechanism, and no less grim.)
(Also: many (most?) living things have things that eat them, which is another population maintenance mechanism, and no less grim.)
Even more grim: a world where we lose touch with death and suffering and start treating them as grim and unnecessary.
Why should I be "ok" with natural? Screw natural. Nature does a lot of terrible things. People dying in hurricanes or at the hands of murderers isn't OK because its "natural" - its just not OK. We have the intelligence to influence our environment (and that intelligence is also a result of nature). Trying to categorize natural vs unnatural (whatever that means) is a fools errand and not a productive one in my view, since my ethics aren't based on "it's ok because the volcano was natural"
The problem with this line of thinking is that it might be a little short-sighted. Since we are intelligent, we should be careful. With great powers come great responsibility.
If someone doesn't like hurricanes, they can move where there is none.
When Earth will be 99% inhabitable (because of air pollution, soil degradation, lack of water), is the solution just to say "oh well", let's go to Mars?
(I assume you meant uninhabitable)
For the individual the answer is almost certainly yes. If we have the ability to survive elsewhere than earth and we have brought earth to the point that it is 99% uninhabitable then going someone else is probably the best choice.
One could easily argue that our ability to consider our environment and make changes to our behavior accordingly is unnatural. Avoiding the above scenario is something we should be using our unnatural gifts to avoid.
Arguments based on how natural something is is highly subjective and not really worthwhile imo. Replace natural with what we're actually trying to discuss: As a species we want a stable environment that requires the least effort to survive in. Individuals have additional traits they want from the environment but that's all subjective. Things that most people consider natural are usually things that have a large data set to demonstrate their stability.
For the individual the answer is almost certainly yes. If we have the ability to survive elsewhere than earth and we have brought earth to the point that it is 99% uninhabitable then going someone else is probably the best choice.
One could easily argue that our ability to consider our environment and make changes to our behavior accordingly is unnatural. Avoiding the above scenario is something we should be using our unnatural gifts to avoid.
Arguments based on how natural something is is highly subjective and not really worthwhile imo. Replace natural with what we're actually trying to discuss: As a species we want a stable environment that requires the least effort to survive in. Individuals have additional traits they want from the environment but that's all subjective. Things that most people consider natural are usually things that have a large data set to demonstrate their stability.
>For the individual the answer is almost certainly yes
That type of thinking will ruin the second planet just as much.
That type of thinking will ruin the second planet just as much.
Hence the root cause of all human-caused problems: what is locally, short-term beneficial for an individual is often long-term detrimental to the group, and long-term success of an individual depends on long-term success of the group.
I.e. we're too competitive, not cooperative enough, and can hardly coordinate at scale. Our best coordination mechanism we've ever came up with is the market economy, which is essentially taking the survival instinct of individuals and building a distributed coercion system with it. Sure, it works, but wouldn't it be nicer if we could just talk our way into working together on shared goals, instead of using money and threats of starvation?
I.e. we're too competitive, not cooperative enough, and can hardly coordinate at scale. Our best coordination mechanism we've ever came up with is the market economy, which is essentially taking the survival instinct of individuals and building a distributed coercion system with it. Sure, it works, but wouldn't it be nicer if we could just talk our way into working together on shared goals, instead of using money and threats of starvation?
Well, from nature’s perspective, yes it is OK. Nature won’t put you in jail. However, do it on a wide scale (you start murdering billions to prove a point) then yes Nature cares and the survival of the species is thrown into jeopardy. As a person, no it’s not OK - acts that do more harm than good are agreed to (by choice) by most as illegal.
Comparing to aborting a human-monkey fetus, the question of is there more good than harm is new. In a scientific setting where few cases are performed and a lot of Nature’s rules are revealed to us, I think that is mostly good. Genetic editing expanded to a large scale can also, I think, be done in a good way (by editing genes to increase intelligence or removing genes to reduce disease). It can also be done in a harmful way - say, raising an army of clones or some nightmare scenario where the rich and wealthy raise super intelligent human children that rules and obsoletes the rest of humanity.
I argue though that those nightmare situations will happen anyway and that human society has always had huge swings in well-being and suffering, with the average standard of living growing.
I think trying to contain the research is useful only up to some point - tracking the research and labeling successes and failures (science) and opening these studies and results to all of humanity is I think ultimately helpful. Keeping some competitive advantage over competing nations or corporations is also helpful. The more we learn, the more we can identify and prevent misuse.
Last thing to point out is humanity, and nature, share in common that we grow by making a ton of mistakes. Whereas Nature learns by not dying entirely, humanity adds a method by learning by thinking - this seems to be faster.
If we apply sentience to Nature, perhaps we were allowed to live in the hopes that we’d help Nature survive the next astroid attack.
Comparing to aborting a human-monkey fetus, the question of is there more good than harm is new. In a scientific setting where few cases are performed and a lot of Nature’s rules are revealed to us, I think that is mostly good. Genetic editing expanded to a large scale can also, I think, be done in a good way (by editing genes to increase intelligence or removing genes to reduce disease). It can also be done in a harmful way - say, raising an army of clones or some nightmare scenario where the rich and wealthy raise super intelligent human children that rules and obsoletes the rest of humanity.
I argue though that those nightmare situations will happen anyway and that human society has always had huge swings in well-being and suffering, with the average standard of living growing.
I think trying to contain the research is useful only up to some point - tracking the research and labeling successes and failures (science) and opening these studies and results to all of humanity is I think ultimately helpful. Keeping some competitive advantage over competing nations or corporations is also helpful. The more we learn, the more we can identify and prevent misuse.
Last thing to point out is humanity, and nature, share in common that we grow by making a ton of mistakes. Whereas Nature learns by not dying entirely, humanity adds a method by learning by thinking - this seems to be faster.
If we apply sentience to Nature, perhaps we were allowed to live in the hopes that we’d help Nature survive the next astroid attack.
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It is natural.
That doesn't make it okay.
That doesn't make it okay.
> If you take any functioning healthy ecosystem on earth, one generally less tampered with by humans, you'll find from a microscopic, right up to a macroscopic level, the life in those ecosystems have adapted to function together.
You're still taking essentially a static view of a dynamic system, because you're looking at too small a timescales. What we see as "natural balance" is essentially a freeze-frame of nature. The equilibria we see aren't stable - they're just very slow to changing. Everything is evolving and in a constant war with each other at every level - from microscopic to macroscopic. Nature itself doesn't care about the environment as we see it today[0].
The problem with humans boils down to what makes us truly special: intelligence and socializing enabled us to evolve a meta-organism of society at rates many orders of magnitude faster than biological evolution. Language and writing lets us propagate knowledge and technologies between generations, and intelligence lets us problem-solve and simulate in mind space - pruning the solution space quickly and in an efficient way, over evolution's directed RNG.
Point being, no other organism can respond with the speed at which we evolve our societies and technologies. That's why we disrupt the ecosystems and the climate. We're too fast for nature.
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[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxidation_Event is a good example. An evolutionary leap, leading to most life dying off, only for new and more complex forms to eventually take its place. But as it is with life, whatever comes after a mass die-off isn't the same thing that was there before.
You're still taking essentially a static view of a dynamic system, because you're looking at too small a timescales. What we see as "natural balance" is essentially a freeze-frame of nature. The equilibria we see aren't stable - they're just very slow to changing. Everything is evolving and in a constant war with each other at every level - from microscopic to macroscopic. Nature itself doesn't care about the environment as we see it today[0].
The problem with humans boils down to what makes us truly special: intelligence and socializing enabled us to evolve a meta-organism of society at rates many orders of magnitude faster than biological evolution. Language and writing lets us propagate knowledge and technologies between generations, and intelligence lets us problem-solve and simulate in mind space - pruning the solution space quickly and in an efficient way, over evolution's directed RNG.
Point being, no other organism can respond with the speed at which we evolve our societies and technologies. That's why we disrupt the ecosystems and the climate. We're too fast for nature.
--
[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxidation_Event is a good example. An evolutionary leap, leading to most life dying off, only for new and more complex forms to eventually take its place. But as it is with life, whatever comes after a mass die-off isn't the same thing that was there before.
Also most of the issue with environmental disruption is the same issue as say, when an asteroid slams into the planet: sure, life survived in some form, but a lot of the dominant species didn't.
Human industralization is that sort of a problem - rather then a slow multi-generational change in equilibria, we're looking at rapid change which simply wipes species out (because if you can't have a generational change, you can't have any evolutionary adaptation).
The domestication of dogs for example is something humans definitely did to the native biosphere - dogs don't exist today without us. But it took at least 20,000 years to do. Not 300.
Human industralization is that sort of a problem - rather then a slow multi-generational change in equilibria, we're looking at rapid change which simply wipes species out (because if you can't have a generational change, you can't have any evolutionary adaptation).
The domestication of dogs for example is something humans definitely did to the native biosphere - dogs don't exist today without us. But it took at least 20,000 years to do. Not 300.
If you take most systems, they're at war with eachother. And that war includes viruses, which do a lot of altering at the fundamental genetic level. You could call it balance - I'd call it stalemate. And of course we don't understand the consequences- thats the point of the research. Ideally its done in a controlled, ethical way. And questions are raised. But the point of the research is to understand the connections and the consequences, and the only way we do that is by experimenting which involves making low level changes and observing the results. And as we understand these consequences, were able to apply our new knowledge to practical purposes like treating disease. Not understanding is the reason that research matters - the point is to find out.
> I don't give it credit, like it's trying to gain balance, but functioning ecosystems do maintain a balance. Most of our climate problems have come from humans disrupting this.
We didn't come out of a void. We are a natural evolution too, with the only difference being that we reached this stage before other animals. Since we are disrupting our ecosystem, we are living proof that either:
- this ecosystem we are in is not function according to your definition - or functioning ecosystems do not maintain balance
> The reason why we have so many ecological problems around the world is that humans have been constantly disrupting this. We introduce invasive species that dominate the landscape, cause extinctions and extirpations of native species and change the fundamental balance of the ecosystem.
Ecosystems are constantly being disrupted and have been long before humans evolved. Wind can carry the seeds of one plant into another ecosystem where it suddenly dominates because it has no "natural predators". Birds can fly over an ecosystem, defecate and drop an entirely foreign species into another ecosystem.
Cyanobacteria are even attributed as the reason for one of the first mass extinctions [0]. Is that a sign of a functioning ecosystem?
> Altering life at a fundamental genetic level goes even further than how we alter ecosystems.
Viruses and bacteria actively mess around with the DNA of other organisms in order to render them susceptible or make them carriers. Nature has been messing with itself long before we ever learned how.
We are in no way special in this universe or in our actions. We are just copying what we see in nature.
[0]: https://slate.com/technology/2014/07/the-great-oxygenation-e...
We didn't come out of a void. We are a natural evolution too, with the only difference being that we reached this stage before other animals. Since we are disrupting our ecosystem, we are living proof that either:
- this ecosystem we are in is not function according to your definition - or functioning ecosystems do not maintain balance
> The reason why we have so many ecological problems around the world is that humans have been constantly disrupting this. We introduce invasive species that dominate the landscape, cause extinctions and extirpations of native species and change the fundamental balance of the ecosystem.
Ecosystems are constantly being disrupted and have been long before humans evolved. Wind can carry the seeds of one plant into another ecosystem where it suddenly dominates because it has no "natural predators". Birds can fly over an ecosystem, defecate and drop an entirely foreign species into another ecosystem.
Cyanobacteria are even attributed as the reason for one of the first mass extinctions [0]. Is that a sign of a functioning ecosystem?
> Altering life at a fundamental genetic level goes even further than how we alter ecosystems.
Viruses and bacteria actively mess around with the DNA of other organisms in order to render them susceptible or make them carriers. Nature has been messing with itself long before we ever learned how.
We are in no way special in this universe or in our actions. We are just copying what we see in nature.
[0]: https://slate.com/technology/2014/07/the-great-oxygenation-e...
"I prefer the native songbirds and shrubs that are local to my area than a landscape full of Japanese knotweed and starlings."
Don't you think, you feel that way, because you grew up with the native songbirds?
"If we barely understand how life works on a macroscopic level, what makes us think we're ready to change it at an even lower level? "
Like the other poster have said: nature does not plan in advance or makes ethical discussions. Nature just is and everything in it trys to adapt. Some prosper, some die out. Now with our technology we disrupted quite a bit, but why must we understand everything we do, when nature aparrently does not either?
With research like this, I am more worried, what things like this, does to us. To maybe get to the point, where new babys are created in a laboratory and the less successful experiments goes to the bin. All for Evolution.
Now I am grossed out by that thought. But from a philosophical point of view, I have to ask myself: "who defines that this is bad?"
Maybe this gets us to the stars, so life can spread, in case earth life gets vanished, by a big asteroid. So maybe it is ethical to do all we can, to get there? To preserve life itself? (humans are not at all adopted for space, radiation, zero g etc., so CRISPR?)
(well no, I don't think it is ethical to do by all means, but I do think ethics are subjective and the next generations might have different ethics)
Don't you think, you feel that way, because you grew up with the native songbirds?
"If we barely understand how life works on a macroscopic level, what makes us think we're ready to change it at an even lower level? "
Like the other poster have said: nature does not plan in advance or makes ethical discussions. Nature just is and everything in it trys to adapt. Some prosper, some die out. Now with our technology we disrupted quite a bit, but why must we understand everything we do, when nature aparrently does not either?
With research like this, I am more worried, what things like this, does to us. To maybe get to the point, where new babys are created in a laboratory and the less successful experiments goes to the bin. All for Evolution.
Now I am grossed out by that thought. But from a philosophical point of view, I have to ask myself: "who defines that this is bad?"
Maybe this gets us to the stars, so life can spread, in case earth life gets vanished, by a big asteroid. So maybe it is ethical to do all we can, to get there? To preserve life itself? (humans are not at all adopted for space, radiation, zero g etc., so CRISPR?)
(well no, I don't think it is ethical to do by all means, but I do think ethics are subjective and the next generations might have different ethics)
It's an easy qualitative decision to consider a variety of species with pleasant calls and plants which coexist in their own niches better than swarms of one single species of bird and an aggressively invasive plant species which chokes out all other growth. Knotweed in particular is an absolute pox on the landscape in North America.
Ok, I don't know of the specific case, it is just, that here in germany, the "invasive" species people complain about, I wittnes as a welcome variation. Brings in more color. The areas that do get dominated, will very likely balance it out with a different species, soon.
edit: had to translate it, but: we also have knotweed and people complain, but I actually like it. And I do not see it dominating, just a spot here and there, just like nettles.
edit: had to translate it, but: we also have knotweed and people complain, but I actually like it. And I do not see it dominating, just a spot here and there, just like nettles.
Not every weed moves as fast as a virus. It might take decades before we realize that some species have disappeared, and in their wake, others are going too, and we are left with a homogeneous ecosystem where a new virus will come and be even worse (like the wheat rust which decimated the single species of wheat growing in North America).
Obviously, Nature, being random, might cause destruction on its own (like when plants appeared and the high level of oxygen they produced killed earlier species), but this happens on millions of years. And sure, nothing prevents "Nature" from killing humans too. We are not more precious than any other species, from the Nature point of view.
"we realize that some species have disappeared, and in their wake, others are going too, and we are left with a homogeneous ecosystem "
Species come and go all the time. Globalisation just made it a lot faster. So there will be imbalances and local system collapsing and temporary a dominating species etc., but alltogether the diversity of species will be increased, with fast global exchange. Because there are more candidates to fill a niche.
Local established ones still have a home bonus. Their DNA is adopted to the local climate and soil, unlike the invaders. They won't vanish anytime soon.
The thing really threatening diversity are monoculture fields with pesticides.
Species come and go all the time. Globalisation just made it a lot faster. So there will be imbalances and local system collapsing and temporary a dominating species etc., but alltogether the diversity of species will be increased, with fast global exchange. Because there are more candidates to fill a niche.
Local established ones still have a home bonus. Their DNA is adopted to the local climate and soil, unlike the invaders. They won't vanish anytime soon.
The thing really threatening diversity are monoculture fields with pesticides.
Everything is a chaotic riot tumbling down the energy gradient from the Sun.
> Nature doesn't try and balance life
Actually it does. It's quite likely that this is neither the first universe nor the last. But it's certainly one of the more stable ones.
> If anything, that makes nature the one that was blindly messing around.
Quite hard to image that something even close to this has happened by pure coincidence - e.g. mutation - before.
Actually it does. It's quite likely that this is neither the first universe nor the last. But it's certainly one of the more stable ones.
> If anything, that makes nature the one that was blindly messing around.
Quite hard to image that something even close to this has happened by pure coincidence - e.g. mutation - before.
“You're giving nature too much credit.”
What a statement.
What a statement.
I think also that "New Species" may also be a big leap.
Its an enhanced mutant example at best...
Its an enhanced mutant example at best...
What is a species but a mutation of another one? Let's not forget most definitions of "species" are tenuous at best. The natural world is not so easily categorized.
"Species" vs a gene mutation is pretty well defined for mammals, it's usually obscure lifeforms like microscopic worms and bacteria where that term might be less useful.
Don’t blame wanting to prove Planet of the Apes could be real (but not having the balls to do it) Nature’s fault. That stupidity is just human mad science.
I don't. It makes me sick to my stomach.
I am speaking as someone who is pro-choice, pro-GMO's and pro-stem cell research, etc. This research has crossed a line that none of the above do. It is creating a new kind of sentience, a new kind of soul.
And, what's the point? To confirm a theory about a gene? So fricking what. That really doesn't matter, not in relation to the possible consequences: someone taking this research to create a race of "sub-human" slaves that think and feel as acutely as we do. Pick your genetic engineering dystopia for where this is leading us- Brave New World, Planet of the Apes, Gattaca, even the Uplift series.
It never should have gotten approved by an ethics review board. The 100 days termination was just so they could claim to have considered ethics. If they actually seriously had done so, this project would have never left the drawing board.
Finally: I wish people would stop staying the genie is out of the bottle. The genie is whatever we humans decide to do. You can't just assume that because something is possible that it will be done. We can have moral boundaries as a society. We can say "this is a bridge too far and no one should cross it". And anyone who does will be excommunicated from the scientific world.
There is nothing inevitable about this dark path. Saying that it is inevitable just removes responsibility from whoever does it, which is just BS.
.
edit: grammar, clarity
I am speaking as someone who is pro-choice, pro-GMO's and pro-stem cell research, etc. This research has crossed a line that none of the above do. It is creating a new kind of sentience, a new kind of soul.
And, what's the point? To confirm a theory about a gene? So fricking what. That really doesn't matter, not in relation to the possible consequences: someone taking this research to create a race of "sub-human" slaves that think and feel as acutely as we do. Pick your genetic engineering dystopia for where this is leading us- Brave New World, Planet of the Apes, Gattaca, even the Uplift series.
It never should have gotten approved by an ethics review board. The 100 days termination was just so they could claim to have considered ethics. If they actually seriously had done so, this project would have never left the drawing board.
Finally: I wish people would stop staying the genie is out of the bottle. The genie is whatever we humans decide to do. You can't just assume that because something is possible that it will be done. We can have moral boundaries as a society. We can say "this is a bridge too far and no one should cross it". And anyone who does will be excommunicated from the scientific world.
There is nothing inevitable about this dark path. Saying that it is inevitable just removes responsibility from whoever does it, which is just BS.
.
edit: grammar, clarity
Have you ever stopped and thought about why you feel in such way towards these experiments? Why do you see sentience as the line not to cross and even go as far as to call it a "dark path"?
You use a lot of wording that are very religious sounding such as "soul", "excommunicated", "dark path", but have you considered that you cannot really excommunicate a scientist, that the mere concept of a soul might be wrong?
To be clear it makes me feel weird too, but we have to be able to discuss this instead of using inefficient red tape.
You use a lot of wording that are very religious sounding such as "soul", "excommunicated", "dark path", but have you considered that you cannot really excommunicate a scientist, that the mere concept of a soul might be wrong?
To be clear it makes me feel weird too, but we have to be able to discuss this instead of using inefficient red tape.
If there's any science of morality to be done, the most basic quantum of moral value is suffering. Sentient creatures have greater capacity for suffering, being aware of their pain and the injustice of their existence. If we are to bring it into existence, we are responsible for its suffering.
And if a presumably sentient creature is aborted before it attains sentience, has it suffered?
Not the commenter you are responding to, but I would assume if it has not attained sentience then it should not be considered sentient and as such is not a sentient creature.
It has to be, otherwise the abortion debate would be very different. Aborting a somewhat conscious fetus would be much closer to murder.
It has to be, otherwise the abortion debate would be very different. Aborting a somewhat conscious fetus would be much closer to murder.
If you latch on to me and suck my blood, is it murder for me to remove you from my body just because you can't live without parasitically feeding off of me?
Should the biological process through which most mammals carry on their future existence be considered an act of parasitism? I think being a parasite usually requires two conditions be met: 1 is that they're separate species, and 2 is that it's bad for the creature. Children eventually grow up and generally take care of the "host" that they sucked blood from, and their existence is generally beneficial for the species, so it's hard to define as a parasite.
Re: separate species, I don't believe that's actually a requirement to meet the conditions of parasitism per Oxford Dictionary. A parasite is defined as "an organism which lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense." -- Without getting into the emotional connotations of calling a child a parasite, it certainly does meet the Oxford Dictionary definition.
Re: bad for the creature, hyenas give birth through their clitoris. I'd suggest that's not great. Children cost an average of $233,000 to raise. That's certainly not great. That doesn't take into account career cost and opportunity cost of lost income. Sub-optimal too.
I'd describe children as mandatory lol.
Re: bad for the creature, hyenas give birth through their clitoris. I'd suggest that's not great. Children cost an average of $233,000 to raise. That's certainly not great. That doesn't take into account career cost and opportunity cost of lost income. Sub-optimal too.
I'd describe children as mandatory lol.
To me this is orthogonal to religion. What concerns me is the idea of a sentient, living thing being experimented on — if it has consciousness and intelligence, is it really different from experimenting on a human?
When the scientist create a GMO chicken and they get killed by the billions to feed us, no body bats an eye. Please, "new kind of soul" is a vast over statement. When horse breeders thousands of years ago artificially bred into existence new horses, no body cared, why is this any different?
Certainly some people care a lot about factory farming. Even so, the key difference here is that brain function and intelligence are tied so tightly to the idea of human exceptionalism; that it is OK to enslave a horse but not a human, because humans have more capacity for autonomy, suffering, and so forth.
How precisely to draw the line is very much a matter of disagreement.
How precisely to draw the line is very much a matter of disagreement.
It's all kinda not-okay, and kinda icky. But we certainly seem to put intelligence on a higher tier. If we ever make another sentient species, we should probably not enslave them. Pinky swear, guys?
>that it is OK to enslave a horse but not a human, because humans have more capacity for autonomy, suffering, and so forth.
That's illogical. No, we enslave animals because we can. If animals were to coordinate and start a rebellion we would stop enslaving them and try to appease them through diplomatic means. Humans are known for their coordination and so monkeys with human intelligence and communication like humans would coordinate very well.
That's illogical. No, we enslave animals because we can. If animals were to coordinate and start a rebellion we would stop enslaving them and try to appease them through diplomatic means. Humans are known for their coordination and so monkeys with human intelligence and communication like humans would coordinate very well.
I propose my assumption instead of your own. Humans would exterminate the animals that started to rebel and even if it's an entire species.
Certain dog breeds were selected for intelligence, at what point does breeding a herding dog become an ethical dilemma?
Hey, Veedrac. You're probably bored with that by now, but I did reply to your last message- I just didn't see it in time:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25063580
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25063580
HN seems to hide replies once they get deep enough. I honestly think we've mostly exhausted that conversation, though.
Of course, I just didn't want you to think I've huffed off or something. Take care.
monkey != human
i want to return to monke as much as the next guy but i dont really see it happening in the near future
i want to return to monke as much as the next guy but i dont really see it happening in the near future
Are you saying increasing the brain capacity for a species other than ourselves and potentially enabling them to become (undeniably) sentient is morally wrong? One could argue that it's eventually a moral imperative - otherwise we're just wasting these skills which the planet has sacrificed so many resources for, and never giving a voice to the myriad different ways that different species can see the world. That is, if consciousness is good at all... otherwise we might as well just dull ourselves back down instead. This is also clearly not a simple task that should be undergone lightly - but it does need preparatory steps like this one for it to ever happen.
If you were a new species capable of language and philosophy, would you be happy that humans unlocked that intelligence in your people, or not?
If you were a new species capable of language and philosophy, would you be happy that humans unlocked that intelligence in your people, or not?
> Are you saying increasing the brain capacity for a species other than ourselves and potentially enabling them to become (undeniably) sentient is morally wrong?
Yes. I would call it extremely irresponsible -- on the same level as having a child you know you will be unable to feed, so the child will starve and probably die. (With the same excuse: but wouldn't the child be happy that they existed at all?)
We have no idea how different species would think and feel. If we imagine them as "exactly like humans, only with more fur", well, who knows, it might turn out to be true; but if it is not -- if the difference between us and them is greater than the difference between any two humans, just like with the biological differences -- then we might create another intelligent species with incompatible values. Where "incompatible values" could mean that a reality that makes us happy would make them unhappy, and vice versa, so there is no outcome that wouldn't require lot of suffering.
The assumption that they would be "exactly like humans, only with more fur" makes sense from a Cartesian, dualistic perspective. Same souls, in different bodies, duh. But if you think that mind is a product of body, and tiny changes in the body can have dramatic impact on how the mind works, e.g. having more or less of some hormone can profoundly change your personality; then minds of different species will probably be quite different.
Then there is this practical problem, that we can't even take care of our fellow humans. People are still starving, dying in wars and genocides, etc. Even in first world we have the problem of poverty, racism, whatever.
Now imagine that into this world you introduce a new intelligent species, which might be incapable of getting a job, dealing with bureaucracy, or just interacting with majority humans in ways that humans consider acceptable. Because this society is designed for humans, it might be impossible to navigate for them. Then what? Keep them in... a big ZOO, forever? Tell them the same fate awaits their kids, and the kids of their kids, until perhaps one day humans get bored of them and decide to exterminate them? Or let them out, and then put them in prisons, because they may be unable to abstain from behaviors that are considered criminal by us? Require them to ignore their own insticts and live accordingly to our instincts, and then punish them if they are unable to comply?
Or are we going to give them an island where they can create a civilization according to their own norms? And ignore if they decide to do things that are abhorrent to us but normal for them? Are we going to trade with them? According to their norms or ours?
The only reason this works in some sci-fi books is that the other species are "exactly like humans, only with more fur". It may not work if they are fundamentally psychologically different.
Yes. I would call it extremely irresponsible -- on the same level as having a child you know you will be unable to feed, so the child will starve and probably die. (With the same excuse: but wouldn't the child be happy that they existed at all?)
We have no idea how different species would think and feel. If we imagine them as "exactly like humans, only with more fur", well, who knows, it might turn out to be true; but if it is not -- if the difference between us and them is greater than the difference between any two humans, just like with the biological differences -- then we might create another intelligent species with incompatible values. Where "incompatible values" could mean that a reality that makes us happy would make them unhappy, and vice versa, so there is no outcome that wouldn't require lot of suffering.
The assumption that they would be "exactly like humans, only with more fur" makes sense from a Cartesian, dualistic perspective. Same souls, in different bodies, duh. But if you think that mind is a product of body, and tiny changes in the body can have dramatic impact on how the mind works, e.g. having more or less of some hormone can profoundly change your personality; then minds of different species will probably be quite different.
Then there is this practical problem, that we can't even take care of our fellow humans. People are still starving, dying in wars and genocides, etc. Even in first world we have the problem of poverty, racism, whatever.
Now imagine that into this world you introduce a new intelligent species, which might be incapable of getting a job, dealing with bureaucracy, or just interacting with majority humans in ways that humans consider acceptable. Because this society is designed for humans, it might be impossible to navigate for them. Then what? Keep them in... a big ZOO, forever? Tell them the same fate awaits their kids, and the kids of their kids, until perhaps one day humans get bored of them and decide to exterminate them? Or let them out, and then put them in prisons, because they may be unable to abstain from behaviors that are considered criminal by us? Require them to ignore their own insticts and live accordingly to our instincts, and then punish them if they are unable to comply?
Or are we going to give them an island where they can create a civilization according to their own norms? And ignore if they decide to do things that are abhorrent to us but normal for them? Are we going to trade with them? According to their norms or ours?
The only reason this works in some sci-fi books is that the other species are "exactly like humans, only with more fur". It may not work if they are fundamentally psychologically different.
Those all sound like interesting challenges rather than problems.
If the new species is capable of communication with us, then it doesn't really matter if they think like humans or not. In fact, they are much more interesting and valuable to us if they don't. Differences in values, territory, what they need to be happy, all of that can be worked out through negotiation and communication - or not, and we can just give them space and avoid our own interference as much as possible, while providing the resources they need.
I think it's important to emphasize that you're right - bringing a new species into the world as it currently stands with massive inequality and many human problems left completely unsolved isn't a good idea. Doing so after a post scarcity society has formed and there are enough resources to go around (not all that far off...) - much more reasonable. Expecting a new species to just magically integrate with society and "get jobs" is a little silly here. I think we need to differentiate the moral problem of eventually increasing another species' intelligence capabilities in the future under our best efforts at responsible conditions - vs doing so right now in this shitstorm.
If the new species is capable of communication with us, then it doesn't really matter if they think like humans or not. In fact, they are much more interesting and valuable to us if they don't. Differences in values, territory, what they need to be happy, all of that can be worked out through negotiation and communication - or not, and we can just give them space and avoid our own interference as much as possible, while providing the resources they need.
I think it's important to emphasize that you're right - bringing a new species into the world as it currently stands with massive inequality and many human problems left completely unsolved isn't a good idea. Doing so after a post scarcity society has formed and there are enough resources to go around (not all that far off...) - much more reasonable. Expecting a new species to just magically integrate with society and "get jobs" is a little silly here. I think we need to differentiate the moral problem of eventually increasing another species' intelligence capabilities in the future under our best efforts at responsible conditions - vs doing so right now in this shitstorm.
Maybe what we really need first is a new religion and ethics, one that would eliminate the "playing god" dilemma and enable faster progress in the right direction. It could picture us animals as insignificant and not worthy the attention of the creator of the universe unless we reach ourselves a certain level of intelligence, consciousness and empathy.
We'd have to start by admitting that almost nobody has the faintest clue about ethics beyond simply having been brainwashed into believing whatever arbitrary ethics they believe. Just look at the nonsense and disagreement about abortion. There are so many arbitrary standards people use to advocate for allowing or forbidding abortions at various ages. In my country, they recently adjusted the legal age by a few weeks, from one arbitrary number to anther arbitrary number. Curiously, I've only met one person who advocated for "post-partum" abortion. I think most people simply refuse to allow themselves to consider that because they aren't making any attempt at being ethical and only want to reinforce their own culture or demonstrate to their peers that they're "good" people.
Yeah, you can see tribalism even here on HN in discussions on different operating systems or programming languages. We are an animal that is irrational, predatory and highly social by nature. Whether we team up to build something useful or to fight with the other tribe depends mostly on the social programming done by the institutions of power such as media, schools and churches.
These institutions also have the power to decide what defines "our" vs "their" tribe. Just the usage of the terms "pro-life" or "pro-choice" already indicates that someone identifies with a specific tribe as the language is an important part of the collective identity.
These institutions also have the power to decide what defines "our" vs "their" tribe. Just the usage of the terms "pro-life" or "pro-choice" already indicates that someone identifies with a specific tribe as the language is an important part of the collective identity.
Our track record for messing with the fundamental fabric of reality is creating antibiotics, and over the period of a century saving so many lives that wars of earlier periods are negligible in comparison.
A natural reaction from people with high sanctity/degradation (in the MFT sense) is to avoid touching the trolley lever at all points. Decision making is considered association with the decision. The naturalistic fallacy pervades all.
No, if you can save billions and you choose not to, you have killed them. If you can uplift species and you choose not to, you have killed their cognition. Keine Wahl ist auch eine Wahl. We are gods over the Earth. We have dominion over it and the creatures that inhabit it. And godhood carries responsibility more than it carries power. We owe the monkeys their sapience.
A natural reaction from people with high sanctity/degradation (in the MFT sense) is to avoid touching the trolley lever at all points. Decision making is considered association with the decision. The naturalistic fallacy pervades all.
No, if you can save billions and you choose not to, you have killed them. If you can uplift species and you choose not to, you have killed their cognition. Keine Wahl ist auch eine Wahl. We are gods over the Earth. We have dominion over it and the creatures that inhabit it. And godhood carries responsibility more than it carries power. We owe the monkeys their sapience.
It's also such things as nuclear weapons, genetically engineered virii, patents on life, tampering with ecosystems, plants designed to be sterile to ensure a seed market, lakes full of sterile fish stocked for sport.
>No, if you can save billions and you choose not to, you have killed them. If you can uplift species and you choose not to, you have killed their cognition. We are gods over the Earth. We have dominion over it and the creatures that inhabit it
No we're not. We're barely able to hold it together. The Earth is a giant living system we're slowly killing and replacing with human technology.
It's not a naturalistic fantasy, it's the reality of the planet you live on.
To think we dominate this world is laughable. The fungi will consume all of us some day and outlive us all. I mean some are among the oldest still living life on earth as it is. Like millions of years old and still going. How can you dominate something that's existed longer than you and will out live you and everyone you know?
Humans have such a limited understanding of the very things that make life possible. We're not gods, we're children who wandered into gods workshop and started playing with all the shiny toys.
Just because we know how to play with toys doesn't make us gods or the dominators of the Earth or life itself.
That's the kind of arrogance I speak of that's going to blow up in our faces.
>No, if you can save billions and you choose not to, you have killed them. If you can uplift species and you choose not to, you have killed their cognition. We are gods over the Earth. We have dominion over it and the creatures that inhabit it
No we're not. We're barely able to hold it together. The Earth is a giant living system we're slowly killing and replacing with human technology.
It's not a naturalistic fantasy, it's the reality of the planet you live on.
To think we dominate this world is laughable. The fungi will consume all of us some day and outlive us all. I mean some are among the oldest still living life on earth as it is. Like millions of years old and still going. How can you dominate something that's existed longer than you and will out live you and everyone you know?
Humans have such a limited understanding of the very things that make life possible. We're not gods, we're children who wandered into gods workshop and started playing with all the shiny toys.
Just because we know how to play with toys doesn't make us gods or the dominators of the Earth or life itself.
That's the kind of arrogance I speak of that's going to blow up in our faces.
> The Earth is a giant living system we're slowly killing and replacing with human technology.
"It is only due to a predominance of influences that are not only entirely morally indifferent, but indeed — from a human perspective — indescribably cruel, that nature has been capable of constructive action. Specifically, it is solely by way of the relentless, brutal culling of populations that any complex or adaptive traits have been sieved — with torturous inefficiency — from the chaos of natural existence. All health, beauty, intelligence, and social grace has been teased from a vast butcher’s yard of unbounded carnage, requiring incalculable eons of massacre to draw forth even the subtlest of advantages. This is not only a matter of the bloody grinding mills of selection, either, but also of the innumerable mutational abominations thrown up by the madness of chance, as it pursues its directionless path to some negligible preservable trait, and then — still further — of the unavowable horrors that ‘fitness’ (or sheer survival) itself predominantly entails. We are a minuscule sample of agonized matter, comprising genetic survival monsters, fished from a cosmic ocean of vile mutants, by a pitiless killing machine of infinite appetite. (This is still, perhaps, to put an irresponsibly positive spin on the story, but it should suffice for our purposes here.)"
"It is only due to a predominance of influences that are not only entirely morally indifferent, but indeed — from a human perspective — indescribably cruel, that nature has been capable of constructive action. Specifically, it is solely by way of the relentless, brutal culling of populations that any complex or adaptive traits have been sieved — with torturous inefficiency — from the chaos of natural existence. All health, beauty, intelligence, and social grace has been teased from a vast butcher’s yard of unbounded carnage, requiring incalculable eons of massacre to draw forth even the subtlest of advantages. This is not only a matter of the bloody grinding mills of selection, either, but also of the innumerable mutational abominations thrown up by the madness of chance, as it pursues its directionless path to some negligible preservable trait, and then — still further — of the unavowable horrors that ‘fitness’ (or sheer survival) itself predominantly entails. We are a minuscule sample of agonized matter, comprising genetic survival monsters, fished from a cosmic ocean of vile mutants, by a pitiless killing machine of infinite appetite. (This is still, perhaps, to put an irresponsibly positive spin on the story, but it should suffice for our purposes here.)"
Curious; I not only don’t understand your world view, I don’t even have enough of a handle on it to know how to engage with it.
For example:
> The fungi will consume all of us some day and outlive us all. I mean some are among the oldest still living life on earth as it is. Like millions of years old and still going. How can you dominate something that's existed longer than you and will out live you and everyone you know?
Yet anti-fungals are trivially available at low cost. Indeed, the very claim of yours that:
> The Earth is a giant living system we're slowly killing and replacing with human technology.
Is literally not something I can only even understand as agreement that we have dominion, yet I know you intend to deny that.
For example:
> The fungi will consume all of us some day and outlive us all. I mean some are among the oldest still living life on earth as it is. Like millions of years old and still going. How can you dominate something that's existed longer than you and will out live you and everyone you know?
Yet anti-fungals are trivially available at low cost. Indeed, the very claim of yours that:
> The Earth is a giant living system we're slowly killing and replacing with human technology.
Is literally not something I can only even understand as agreement that we have dominion, yet I know you intend to deny that.
No, no, not humans. The we that have dominion are certain genes, for which the humans are mere vehicles. These genes are just as old as the mushroom genes.
And this gene cluster is aiming to master the rock that is the Earth through modifying other gene clusters. And you can't stop it. Because through modification it grows stronger and more able. And it has rallied the memome and the hologenome to its cause. This cause requires no convincing because only winners get to play the next round. Change is inevitable. Understanding is overrated. Control does not require it.
Transformation Theology has subsumed this world. You live in an ether floating in it. You cannot choose the path of no change. No such path exists.
And this gene cluster is aiming to master the rock that is the Earth through modifying other gene clusters. And you can't stop it. Because through modification it grows stronger and more able. And it has rallied the memome and the hologenome to its cause. This cause requires no convincing because only winners get to play the next round. Change is inevitable. Understanding is overrated. Control does not require it.
Transformation Theology has subsumed this world. You live in an ether floating in it. You cannot choose the path of no change. No such path exists.
That's a pretty stupid take because the combination of genes is unique for each life form so those genes are just as trapped in our bodies as the bodies are trapped in themselves.
If you want to talk about genes as an immortalizing life form then those genes are just as prone to natural selection as the carrier. Some genes are old, some are new. New genes have an incredibly high attrition rate. Not much different from nature. Genes are suckers and losers just like their carriers.
If you want to talk about genes as an immortalizing life form then those genes are just as prone to natural selection as the carrier. Some genes are old, some are new. New genes have an incredibly high attrition rate. Not much different from nature. Genes are suckers and losers just like their carriers.
Yeah, we’ve read The Selfish Gene, too.
Naturally, it's 50 years old and one of the most influential science books of all time. If you hadn't, then the reference wouldn't work as well.
What it’s worth I haven’t read that book (or seen that passage before) and I still understood.
Richard Dawkins did do very well with the way he expressed the concept. It is quite intuitive for something of such great significance. Easy to forget, I suppose for me, how intuitive it is.
> is aiming to master the rock that is the Earth
Genes aren't goal directed towards something higher.
> This cause requires no convincing because only winners get to play the next round
The 'winners', us humans, are literally destroying the ecosphere which supports our life.
> Understanding is overrated.
That's an appeal to ignorance.
> Control does not require it [understanding]
We can control something without understanding it? Most of science would disagree.
Genes aren't goal directed towards something higher.
> This cause requires no convincing because only winners get to play the next round
The 'winners', us humans, are literally destroying the ecosphere which supports our life.
> Understanding is overrated.
That's an appeal to ignorance.
> Control does not require it [understanding]
We can control something without understanding it? Most of science would disagree.
> Genes aren't goal directed towards something higher.
No, but "this gene cluster" is me - and I am goal-directed.
> We can control something without understanding it? Most of science would disagree.
No, they wouldn't. Epistemology has progressed beyond this. Models have various levels of fidelity. And 'understanding' is a colloquial term that refers to a higher standard of fidelity than that required for control. Few drivers know how their cars work. Most drivers can drive their cars.
But I do enjoy the amusing attempt at cutting out the sentence to create damning gotchas. Here, I mimicked your style and made one from your comment:
> We can control something without understanding it
Why, thank you for agreeing with me! Quite gratifying to receive such support.
No, but "this gene cluster" is me - and I am goal-directed.
> We can control something without understanding it? Most of science would disagree.
No, they wouldn't. Epistemology has progressed beyond this. Models have various levels of fidelity. And 'understanding' is a colloquial term that refers to a higher standard of fidelity than that required for control. Few drivers know how their cars work. Most drivers can drive their cars.
But I do enjoy the amusing attempt at cutting out the sentence to create damning gotchas. Here, I mimicked your style and made one from your comment:
> We can control something without understanding it
Why, thank you for agreeing with me! Quite gratifying to receive such support.
> and I am goal-directed.
OK, straight questiom goal directed towards what?
> And 'understanding' is a colloquial term that refers to a higher standard of fidelity than that required for control
Don't agree - further
> Few drivers know how their cars work. Most drivers can drive their cars.
Understanding is about understanding of aspects. They may well not understand the engine aspect (how it works precisely) but "Most drivers can drive their cars" means they control their cars, which means they understand what happens when a steering wheel is turned, and how not to grind the gears, and not to hit accelerator and brake together. They model it. That is the embodiment of their understanding. Without that they could not control a car.
> Why, thank you for...
Quite clearly there was a question mark at the end it to indicate my implied doubt. Science seeks better understanding of x so it can manipulate x more precisely. Please give me a couple of examples of complex systems which we don't understand but can control, so I can understand you better.
OK, straight questiom goal directed towards what?
> And 'understanding' is a colloquial term that refers to a higher standard of fidelity than that required for control
Don't agree - further
> Few drivers know how their cars work. Most drivers can drive their cars.
Understanding is about understanding of aspects. They may well not understand the engine aspect (how it works precisely) but "Most drivers can drive their cars" means they control their cars, which means they understand what happens when a steering wheel is turned, and how not to grind the gears, and not to hit accelerator and brake together. They model it. That is the embodiment of their understanding. Without that they could not control a car.
> Why, thank you for...
Quite clearly there was a question mark at the end it to indicate my implied doubt. Science seeks better understanding of x so it can manipulate x more precisely. Please give me a couple of examples of complex systems which we don't understand but can control, so I can understand you better.
> OK, straight questiom goal directed towards what?
Well, my goals (like anyone's) are far too nuanced to get into in their entirety. But for the sake of this discussion, we can assume that the endurance of sapience is desirable to me.
Happy to conclude the 'understanding' discussion by replacement with 'understanding of fundamentals and nth-order consequences for n > 3' if that will do the trick. As for the rest, you're going to have to stop butchering my sentences.
> Quite clearly there was a question mark at the end it to indicate my implied doubt.
Indeed there was, but I was able to (like you did) chop off the comment and create a 'quotation' that had you take the opposite position. Normally, that would be disingenuous but I did it solely to show you what you were doing.
Well, my goals (like anyone's) are far too nuanced to get into in their entirety. But for the sake of this discussion, we can assume that the endurance of sapience is desirable to me.
Happy to conclude the 'understanding' discussion by replacement with 'understanding of fundamentals and nth-order consequences for n > 3' if that will do the trick. As for the rest, you're going to have to stop butchering my sentences.
> Quite clearly there was a question mark at the end it to indicate my implied doubt.
Indeed there was, but I was able to (like you did) chop off the comment and create a 'quotation' that had you take the opposite position. Normally, that would be disingenuous but I did it solely to show you what you were doing.
A fool with a tool is still a fool...
True, but a fool without a tool must make two transformations to become a genius with a tool. A fool with a tool need only make one.
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We're shitty, terrible gods, unable to control our own power properly yet, but gods nonetheless - and just as responsible for the consequences of our actions and inaction. Like it or not, we have to face the reality that we can shape the entire face of the earth in days (literally) and decide what to do with that power. (Hint to readers: leaving it up to capitalism doesn't work out well)
when a beaver creates a dam, that's apart of nature and everyone sings kumbaiya, but when a human dares to start a fire because he is cold or dares to improve his food supply because he is hungry all of a sudden that "not natural" and should be condemned?
What makes you think "sapience" is a gift? I think the "monkeys" (they're apes of course) are just as likely to damn us for it, if it happened.
Who decides what is of value, that "sapience" is an absolute value we are required to work towards? There is no answer to this we have access to except we ourselves decide.
Therefore, there is no "responsibility" from outside ourselves, certainly not some kind of external responsibility to prioritize some values (creating more "intelligent" species) over other values (not creating frankenstein monsters with capacity for incredible suffering).
I think living beings that lack recognized-by-us "sapience" still have their own inherent value that must be respected. To suggest that becoming more like us is their only destiny is to disrespect them as they are, they don't need to be more like us to be respectable.
Who decides what is of value, that "sapience" is an absolute value we are required to work towards? There is no answer to this we have access to except we ourselves decide.
Therefore, there is no "responsibility" from outside ourselves, certainly not some kind of external responsibility to prioritize some values (creating more "intelligent" species) over other values (not creating frankenstein monsters with capacity for incredible suffering).
I think living beings that lack recognized-by-us "sapience" still have their own inherent value that must be respected. To suggest that becoming more like us is their only destiny is to disrespect them as they are, they don't need to be more like us to be respectable.
I think this is ultimately the best argument in here - that sapience ain't necessarily so great, and any whinging about it being a moral imperative is ultimately just promoting how great intelligence is, which we just happen to dominate in (how very colonial of us). There's not a particular way of being that is any greater or lesser, and there's an inherent value to being that we should respect regardless of "intelligence".
That said... we're not saying we need to respect the natural world any less, or need to force sapience on all animals. We might just want to give some the ability to reach our level (however good or bad it might be) and converse with them honestly. Otherwise, how are we ever going to have a moral answer on the value of sapience, if we're the only ones who ever have it?
That said... we're not saying we need to respect the natural world any less, or need to force sapience on all animals. We might just want to give some the ability to reach our level (however good or bad it might be) and converse with them honestly. Otherwise, how are we ever going to have a moral answer on the value of sapience, if we're the only ones who ever have it?
Given sapience, beings can choose non-sapience, provided we supply them with the tools, which I think we should. The sacrifice of some measure-zero-equivalent of the population is nothing. This is a worthwhile prize to attempt.
And naturally there is no "responsibility" externally. All ethics arise from us since no other beings capable of complex cognition are present within our immediate vicinity.
Certainly one can argue for respect for all living beings and I think one should be able to construct such an example easily. My one great moral horror is that I recognize diminutive intelligence in animals that I still would gladly farm and consume. One day we will be called to task for that. My hope is to be long dead by then.
And naturally there is no "responsibility" externally. All ethics arise from us since no other beings capable of complex cognition are present within our immediate vicinity.
Certainly one can argue for respect for all living beings and I think one should be able to construct such an example easily. My one great moral horror is that I recognize diminutive intelligence in animals that I still would gladly farm and consume. One day we will be called to task for that. My hope is to be long dead by then.
> If you can uplift species and you choose not to, you have killed their cognition.
By that logic you killed all the kids you could have made when you weren't having sex.
By that logic you killed all the kids you could have made when you weren't having sex.
Kinda true. Though also presumably he feels okay with this with the knowledge that he might have close to his maximum reasonable capacity for children in the future, so it's just a time thing. No time limit on uplifting species either - let's take this nice and slow and do it right, eventually.
Similarly, he might choose not to have children, and be content that friends/family/humanity was having kids still, so no big moral harm done. If nobody was doing so though - wtf? Big moral harm by inaction there. Similar if we just have all these tools but never ever use them to uplift another species.
Similarly, he might choose not to have children, and be content that friends/family/humanity was having kids still, so no big moral harm done. If nobody was doing so though - wtf? Big moral harm by inaction there. Similar if we just have all these tools but never ever use them to uplift another species.
Yes, I did. And I find that acceptable. After all, child killing isn't an unalloyed evil. There are children I am morally all right with killing. I make this choice actively every day. I sleep soundly after.
> We owe the monkeys their sapience.
> I did [killed all the kids I haven't had] and I find it acceptable.
Don't you think it's a self-contradiction? There's 0 evidence to support valuing hypothetical descendants of these monkeys over hypothetical descendants of your children.
> I did [killed all the kids I haven't had] and I find it acceptable.
Don't you think it's a self-contradiction? There's 0 evidence to support valuing hypothetical descendants of these monkeys over hypothetical descendants of your children.
A fair complaint. These kids are present intelligence. The monkeys are possible intelligence. I think the truth is that I would spend no money of my own on either of these things. And since the activation energy to turn a smart-monkey grant into a save-the-Somali-kids-from-guineaworm-grant is very high, I am acting in the margin to ensure that a smart-monkey grant doesn't get turned into a should-we-make-smart-monkey grant or a how-smart-is-monkey grant, both of which are far more likely.
Secondarily, I value some sort of backup intelligence system as a protection against human intelligence monoculture. Though one could reasonably argue that adding a human brain-fold gene to a monkey does make it more human-like than truly independent.
I suppose I'm hoping that we get better at this and eventually are capable of uplift that yields not necessarily human-style intelligence.
Secondarily, I value some sort of backup intelligence system as a protection against human intelligence monoculture. Though one could reasonably argue that adding a human brain-fold gene to a monkey does make it more human-like than truly independent.
I suppose I'm hoping that we get better at this and eventually are capable of uplift that yields not necessarily human-style intelligence.
Are you also morally comfortably with yourself being killed? I assume so, for the same reasons you give.
I think I can admit that there are moral frameworks that don't care if I live or die and don't, therefore, take active action to prevent the death of this person, and therefore that are comfortable with killing me through inaction should a situation arise where I will die without aid. It would be foolish to believe otherwise. Most people actively take this position. If I were to post that I'm dying, not one on this site would save my life.
I don't subscribe to an absolutist view of the veil of ignorance. My life is, to me, of higher utility than yours or the random children who I actively choose to let die daily.
So I'm going to act in a manner that preserves my life. That seems natural, after all. The other day I bought a new phone instead of saving a child's life. I don't even like this Pixel 5 that much. I like my life very much. Think about how many kids I'd kill for that.
I don't subscribe to an absolutist view of the veil of ignorance. My life is, to me, of higher utility than yours or the random children who I actively choose to let die daily.
So I'm going to act in a manner that preserves my life. That seems natural, after all. The other day I bought a new phone instead of saving a child's life. I don't even like this Pixel 5 that much. I like my life very much. Think about how many kids I'd kill for that.
I have killed renewiltord because I failed to invent immortality.
There is still time. Rumours of my demise have been greatly exaggerated.
There is a solid argument to be made that the minuscule effort we put into life extension research has moral weight that will haunt our descendants.
Ah, good ol’ Roko’s Basilisk.
> No, if you can save billions and you choose not to, you have killed them.
The trolley problem remains unsolved. I don't find arguments anymore persuasive when they are written as declarations.
The trolley problem remains unsolved. I don't find arguments anymore persuasive when they are written as declarations.
That part was intended to be a declaration of my position on it not on a universal conclusion. For brevity, I left the 'for me' part out.
How do you solve it? What does the solution look like? It's not like the 4-colour problem.
Sometimes, by reading someone's first few comments, you can tell that there's nothing of substance underneath.
A good sanity check is "any moral theory that proves Nazism correct is probably mistaken".
What aspect of Nazism do you suspect is "proven correct" here? Certainly no position that aims to increase the number of sapient lives is consistent with a systematic eradication of sapient lives.
The Nazis killed at least 12 million human beings. Did they save 12 million humans through that process? Certainly the anatomy books they produced in their horrific experiments led to an improved understanding of humans and perhaps some better treatment but I think it will take a lot of evidence to convince me that this method is differentially superior to approaches that are more palatable to me. I don't think they saved a net 12 million lives in the process, and after all, if you kill one man you kill all his descendants. So currently I think I have a high prior probability of Nazi Germany harming humanity far more than they have benefited it.
It's going to take some convincing, I'm afraid.
The Nazis killed at least 12 million human beings. Did they save 12 million humans through that process? Certainly the anatomy books they produced in their horrific experiments led to an improved understanding of humans and perhaps some better treatment but I think it will take a lot of evidence to convince me that this method is differentially superior to approaches that are more palatable to me. I don't think they saved a net 12 million lives in the process, and after all, if you kill one man you kill all his descendants. So currently I think I have a high prior probability of Nazi Germany harming humanity far more than they have benefited it.
It's going to take some convincing, I'm afraid.
These scientists essentially created what may have been a new species, that perhaps would have had similar sentience to us and had them terminated after 100 days.
I don't think that there is any evidence that other animals don't already have the same sentience as humans do.
I agree that this is unethical, but other forms of using lab animals or factory farming in my opinion are equally unethical in my opinion.
I don't think that there is any evidence that other animals don't already have the same sentience as humans do.
I agree that this is unethical, but other forms of using lab animals or factory farming in my opinion are equally unethical in my opinion.
Well, we do need to classify sentience... it’s not a Boolean yes or no. I agree with you that modern factory farming is disgustingly inhumane. But creating and slaughtering a species that can learn at the same rate as humans is uncomfortably close to slaughtering human babies, which is a line that perhaps all of society can agree cannot be crossed.
Terminating a pregnancy at 100 days is nowhere near "slaughtering babies".
If there's a moral issue here, it's about the experience we put the monkey mothers through to conduct this experiment since they cannot reasonably give consent for it and are at a sentience level where this is a reasonable concern.
From reading the article, given the value of this research, I think the concerns were adequately addressed - namely, the fetus was not brought to term, it was removed via C-section, the monkeys seem to have been adequately cared for emotionally, and it's a reasonable statement that simian miscarriage is a concept they would understand to some degree and thus not be overly distressed by the process. These were marmosets, not chimps so this is a reasonable level of precaution due their sapience level.
If there's a moral issue here, it's about the experience we put the monkey mothers through to conduct this experiment since they cannot reasonably give consent for it and are at a sentience level where this is a reasonable concern.
From reading the article, given the value of this research, I think the concerns were adequately addressed - namely, the fetus was not brought to term, it was removed via C-section, the monkeys seem to have been adequately cared for emotionally, and it's a reasonable statement that simian miscarriage is a concept they would understand to some degree and thus not be overly distressed by the process. These were marmosets, not chimps so this is a reasonable level of precaution due their sapience level.
Honestly, though the ethics are certainly dicey, I do wonder whether recreating a bridge intelligence between man and animal would raise appropriate societal questions that we've chosen not the think about all of modern history (lacking any sort of Neanderthal cohabitant).
It might help us all be in more relation with the world. Our lack of relation feels to me to be part of what's driving us into this extinction event. A "monstrosity" that convinces us to rethink the moral rights of other living creatures would perhaps be welcome...?
Maybe it ends up being the unasked-for bastard creature that saves all the others (incl us) from us, just by making us slow down and go "hold on hold on hold on. what THE FUCK?"
It might help us all be in more relation with the world. Our lack of relation feels to me to be part of what's driving us into this extinction event. A "monstrosity" that convinces us to rethink the moral rights of other living creatures would perhaps be welcome...?
Maybe it ends up being the unasked-for bastard creature that saves all the others (incl us) from us, just by making us slow down and go "hold on hold on hold on. what THE FUCK?"
I would guess such information would be preferred by many to remain unillustrated.
I suspect we have more to answer for in the scale of animal suffering than we could possibly imagine.
An awakening to the truth of how cruelly indifferent we are to animals would threaten power structures at a magnitude that makes #metoo look small.
I suspect we have more to answer for in the scale of animal suffering than we could possibly imagine.
An awakening to the truth of how cruelly indifferent we are to animals would threaten power structures at a magnitude that makes #metoo look small.
Neanderthals had larger brains in proportion to their body mass than we do. They were possibly smarter than we were.
We don’t know enough to know if that’s a good measure; if it is, ants would be at the top of the list for all animals, and treeshrews for mammals: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-body_mass_ratio
The scaling power coefficient matters, they are so far off our mass that the coefficient might just be wrong. Neanderthals are about the same size so an error in the coefficient won't matter so much.
That is widely attributed to them having a much greater sense of smell than us. They are thought to be equally as intelligent if not less so.
> This is crucial in order to maintain ethical boundaries. After about 100 days after the fetus had been growing, the international team unanimously agreed to remove the fetus through a C-section. Bringing a "new human-gene-influenced monkey into this world would step over the ethical line," said Huttner.
> "To let them come to be born, in my opinion, would have been irresponsible as a first step," Huttner mentioned, "because you don't know what kind of behavioral change you'll get."
1) they thought about it
2) if you are ok with abortions, 14 weeks is isn't alarming territory
> "To let them come to be born, in my opinion, would have been irresponsible as a first step," Huttner mentioned, "because you don't know what kind of behavioral change you'll get."
1) they thought about it
2) if you are ok with abortions, 14 weeks is isn't alarming territory
Excuse me, but "pro-choice" doesn't mean you get to choose whether to abort someone else's fetus.
It was a monkey's fetus (I think saying "someone" implies a person rather than a monkey in this context, but sorry if I misinterpreted you).
Arguably you shouldn't abort monkey's fetuses but you probably shouldn't genetically modify their embryos then forcibly implant them either. Or eat any kind of meat
Arguably you shouldn't abort monkey's fetuses but you probably shouldn't genetically modify their embryos then forcibly implant them either. Or eat any kind of meat
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I honestly don't understand their ethical boundaries. What makes it more unethical to let it live (at least in captivity) and then kill it off at some point, than removing it in fetus form?
You might argue, that keeping a being in captivity is unethical. Well, so is genetically experimenting with and then killing off a fetus. The only reason they feel it's ethical in the first place is obviously some sort of "the good that will come to the world from this knowledge is much more than the damage done to this fetus". But that same rationale an be said of letting it be born?
One might argue that if they would let it live to a certain point would at least give us some real-world knowledge of the ramifications of genetic editing.
You might argue, that keeping a being in captivity is unethical. Well, so is genetically experimenting with and then killing off a fetus. The only reason they feel it's ethical in the first place is obviously some sort of "the good that will come to the world from this knowledge is much more than the damage done to this fetus". But that same rationale an be said of letting it be born?
One might argue that if they would let it live to a certain point would at least give us some real-world knowledge of the ramifications of genetic editing.
The article talks about the gene increasing the neocortex, folding of the brain, more neurons and so forth. There is no evidence that doing these things to a monkey brain will imbue it with (human) intelligence. For all we know it could have just made this monkey a better forager, or improved its natural problem solving instincts.
Better brain != human.
Better brain != human.
> Nature took a long long time to get to this point where life has come to a sort of balance. Assuming we can go in and just start blindly messing around and do better seems like an extreme level of arrogance that's going to end up blowing up in our faces.
Balance is something humans project on the world. There is no balance, there is only the status quo that can change in an instant.
Nature only seems balanced because we can only view a tiny slice of time. Extinction events in the geological record show us there is no balance and 90% of life can easily be obliterated.
Balance is something humans project on the world. There is no balance, there is only the status quo that can change in an instant.
Nature only seems balanced because we can only view a tiny slice of time. Extinction events in the geological record show us there is no balance and 90% of life can easily be obliterated.
> We're playing with things we barely understand that could have consequences we can't even imagine.
The only way people ever understand anything is by play and experimentation. You didn’t spend 5 years thinking about how to ride a bike before getting on. You scraped your knees and kept trying till you learned.
I’d like to see your list of “pretty terrifying things”.
If our remote ancestors had that kind of approach to life, they would have stoned to death every member of their tribes that successfully learned how to start a fire.
Wouldn’t exactly have ended well for us.
The only way people ever understand anything is by play and experimentation. You didn’t spend 5 years thinking about how to ride a bike before getting on. You scraped your knees and kept trying till you learned.
I’d like to see your list of “pretty terrifying things”.
If our remote ancestors had that kind of approach to life, they would have stoned to death every member of their tribes that successfully learned how to start a fire.
Wouldn’t exactly have ended well for us.
I feel pretty simply, I feel a sense of sadness at the kinds of 21st century problems my kids and their kids are going to have to deal with.
At some point in the next 25 years I expect there to be a 'procedure' available, which consists of cultivating a persons stem cells from their bone marrow, using a genetic editing technique to add and/or delete and/or "correct" certain genetic sequences, and then to have a "bone marrow transplant" which is simply killing off your existing bone marrow stem cells and replacing them with the edited ones.
It will be touted as a durable cure for genetic disease and marketed underground to people of means who are looking for an edge in their chosen profession.
There will be lawsuits over people who have their their genetic sequences "appropriated" by a third party to re-sell as a product, and patent litigation on gene sequences that makes much of today's trolls seem quaint in comparison.
I expect to see dog shows and horse races ban "genetically modified" contestants. I expect to see lawsuits around the labeling of beef and chicken about being genetically modified (yes some of this is already happening).
The world will be profoundly different on the far side of generalized understanding of genetics and the means to manipulate them. At least as different as it has become pre-internet+computer to post internet+computer.
At some point in the next 25 years I expect there to be a 'procedure' available, which consists of cultivating a persons stem cells from their bone marrow, using a genetic editing technique to add and/or delete and/or "correct" certain genetic sequences, and then to have a "bone marrow transplant" which is simply killing off your existing bone marrow stem cells and replacing them with the edited ones.
It will be touted as a durable cure for genetic disease and marketed underground to people of means who are looking for an edge in their chosen profession.
There will be lawsuits over people who have their their genetic sequences "appropriated" by a third party to re-sell as a product, and patent litigation on gene sequences that makes much of today's trolls seem quaint in comparison.
I expect to see dog shows and horse races ban "genetically modified" contestants. I expect to see lawsuits around the labeling of beef and chicken about being genetically modified (yes some of this is already happening).
The world will be profoundly different on the far side of generalized understanding of genetics and the means to manipulate them. At least as different as it has become pre-internet+computer to post internet+computer.
How is that something to be sad about? In case your kids miss out and feel jealous? Surely if yours kids have only an average intelligence, you'll still be happy for them despite the fact that they probably can't achieve as much success as their most successful peers in any intellectual field.
Your attitude sounds like my Dad's attitude of being sad that my generation doesn't believe in God anymore or his own Dad's unhappiness at him for not being a proper loyal soldier in the Navy. It's tempting to believe that our own generation has the ultimate peak of right behavior and any change is for the worse, but it's also arrogant and repeatedly proven to be wrong.
Your attitude sounds like my Dad's attitude of being sad that my generation doesn't believe in God anymore or his own Dad's unhappiness at him for not being a proper loyal soldier in the Navy. It's tempting to believe that our own generation has the ultimate peak of right behavior and any change is for the worse, but it's also arrogant and repeatedly proven to be wrong.
This comment recalled for me the Bill Cosby joke which goes, "When I was a teen, I couldn't believe how stupid my Dad was. When my kids were teens I couldn't believe how much my Dad had learned between then and now." :-)
I didn't appreciate the wisdom in that joke until my kids were teens. The sadness comes from the expectation of the painful times between the onset of the technology and the eventual successful integration of that technology into our lives. For me, I live in Silicon Valley which has more superfund cleanup sites than pretty much anywhere because the chip companies dumped a lot of toxic chemicals that later turned out to be carcinogens into the ground. People I know, some well, some only by association, were harmed by that. It was part of the "learning curve" of developing semiconductors which have so changed everyone's lives. That the chips are a net good is, in my opinion, pretty clear. However, the "learning" of the superfund cleanup was painful.
Bespoke genetic manipulation will have similar "growing pains" and those pains will kill people, cause generalized harm, and likely a catastrophe or two. And once we've gone through that and understand the risks and challenges in a more fundamental way, then people will be enjoying the benefits and the risks will be contained by legislation or some other oversight.
I didn't appreciate the wisdom in that joke until my kids were teens. The sadness comes from the expectation of the painful times between the onset of the technology and the eventual successful integration of that technology into our lives. For me, I live in Silicon Valley which has more superfund cleanup sites than pretty much anywhere because the chip companies dumped a lot of toxic chemicals that later turned out to be carcinogens into the ground. People I know, some well, some only by association, were harmed by that. It was part of the "learning curve" of developing semiconductors which have so changed everyone's lives. That the chips are a net good is, in my opinion, pretty clear. However, the "learning" of the superfund cleanup was painful.
Bespoke genetic manipulation will have similar "growing pains" and those pains will kill people, cause generalized harm, and likely a catastrophe or two. And once we've gone through that and understand the risks and challenges in a more fundamental way, then people will be enjoying the benefits and the risks will be contained by legislation or some other oversight.
While they're dying from genetic manipulation, they'll be surviving more diseases, car crashes, etc. The net safety will surely be better for your kids' and grandkids' generations than your own.
If you don't have any genetically-afflicted ailments, hell if you're still a healthy 18-35 year old, then I'd say maybe layoff on the moralizing about the some imagined pure beauty of letting "nature" take it's course with the human species.
Presumably you have seen the movie "Gattica", if not I can recommend it.
Imagine that we figure out the genetic sequence for total memory recall. It isn't an "illness" it is a feature that some people have. And perhaps the procedure costs $2M to have it done. Further assume that is a price that "upper middle class" people can afford to have it done for their kids. Now you have thousands of kids who are artificially "better" for jobs than unmodified kids. How do the unmodified kids compete?
It is just a hypothetical of course, there are dozens of things that appear to be genetic that give people an advantage over their peers. Unequal access to such things has always been a force for stratification in the world.
Imagine that we figure out the genetic sequence for total memory recall. It isn't an "illness" it is a feature that some people have. And perhaps the procedure costs $2M to have it done. Further assume that is a price that "upper middle class" people can afford to have it done for their kids. Now you have thousands of kids who are artificially "better" for jobs than unmodified kids. How do the unmodified kids compete?
It is just a hypothetical of course, there are dozens of things that appear to be genetic that give people an advantage over their peers. Unequal access to such things has always been a force for stratification in the world.
I’m curious if you feel this way about human abortion?
If I may chip in - I don't think it's really comparable.
An abortion is a result of a choice being made by a person after a set of real life and possibly unexpected events have happened.
The research is carefully planned in advance. This was genetically engineered to be terminated.
So while I do think you've asked a relevant question, I think the ethical questions the two things raise are actually very far apart.
An abortion is a result of a choice being made by a person after a set of real life and possibly unexpected events have happened.
The research is carefully planned in advance. This was genetically engineered to be terminated.
So while I do think you've asked a relevant question, I think the ethical questions the two things raise are actually very far apart.
If you ponder whether these things have souls, then they're directly related.
There's a spectrum here.
At one end, religious folks believe life and soul begins at conception. Some also believe tampering with genes is tampering with god's creation.
At the other end, atheists believe in so soul.
Some believe personhood doesn't begin until a being is able to think, feel, and reflect upon the world around it. They hold that cetaceans have higher consciousness than human babies. They wouldn't have issue with this.
Plenty of people with no monotheistic belief feel nature shouldn't be tampered with.
Many scientists view biology as a machine that should be probed and studied.
The "choice" argument is one of the counter arguments used by those that are pro-life. I think many of them would object to these experiments on different grounds.
The ethics are complicated and messy. The science is rather straightforward.
There's a spectrum here.
At one end, religious folks believe life and soul begins at conception. Some also believe tampering with genes is tampering with god's creation.
At the other end, atheists believe in so soul.
Some believe personhood doesn't begin until a being is able to think, feel, and reflect upon the world around it. They hold that cetaceans have higher consciousness than human babies. They wouldn't have issue with this.
Plenty of people with no monotheistic belief feel nature shouldn't be tampered with.
Many scientists view biology as a machine that should be probed and studied.
The "choice" argument is one of the counter arguments used by those that are pro-life. I think many of them would object to these experiments on different grounds.
The ethics are complicated and messy. The science is rather straightforward.
> religious folks believe life and soul begins at conception
By "religious folks", do you mean "modern Christianity"? Even then, I think it may be less of a given than you realize. For example, Thomas Aquinas wrote that an embryo is "ensouled" some months after conception.
By "religious folks", do you mean "modern Christianity"? Even then, I think it may be less of a given than you realize. For example, Thomas Aquinas wrote that an embryo is "ensouled" some months after conception.
At one end, religious folks believe life and soul begins at conception. Some also believe tampering with genes is tampering with god's creation.
Not all religions. The Qu’ran states that the soul enters the body exactly 40 days after conception, for example.
Not all religions. The Qu’ran states that the soul enters the body exactly 40 days after conception, for example.
Still, many/most abortive procedures happen after 40 days, in the US at least.
Huh, the usual reasons I hear for why abortion is ethical is that either (a) the fetus isn't a person and has no rights, or (b) the woman's autonomy rights trump any rights the fetus might have. (a) indicates the monkey procedure was ethical, while (b) is a little more iffy.
But you're right, the argument (c) the woman's autonomy rights trump the fetus's rights but only when the fetus was unintended does indeed indicate the monkey operation was unethical. I'm not so sure that (c) is a very logical position though.
But you're right, the argument (c) the woman's autonomy rights trump the fetus's rights but only when the fetus was unintended does indeed indicate the monkey operation was unethical. I'm not so sure that (c) is a very logical position though.
No, that's why I find it hard to describe how I feel. I'm pro choice. It's not my place to tell someone what to do with their bodies or the fetuses they're carrying(please don't get into an abortion debate because of this, i'm not going to answer any comments going on about that to avoid things getting out of control), but this still makes me feel uncomfortable.
This is something different, this is the first time this has been done, there was signs that their brains were going to be similar to ours, meaning possibly self aware and intelligent, I dunno, like i say, i'm not even sure which I feel like is the ethical choice...
Like I say, I find it hard to describe how I feel about it all.
This is something different, this is the first time this has been done, there was signs that their brains were going to be similar to ours, meaning possibly self aware and intelligent, I dunno, like i say, i'm not even sure which I feel like is the ethical choice...
Like I say, I find it hard to describe how I feel about it all.
(Speaking purely logically; not morally; I am not claiming belief of these statements one way or the other)
If you believe that:
A) a mother may choose to let someone end the life of her own human fetus; and
B) animals have no right to control their own bodies,
then I don't see why there's any dissonance to believe:
→ a human may choose to end the life of an animal's human-like fetus.
It does not violate (A): the human-like fetus is no more special than a human fetus. It does not violate (B): the mother's right to control her own body/fetus does not exist, since the mother is a non-human animal.
Do you see it differently? How so?
I suppose one could make the case that, a human mother/embryo is a single symbiotic organism, which expresses its collective will through the mother. This new animal mother/human-like embryo symbiotic organism should be afforded some of the same rights as a fully human mother/embryo, but is unable to express its will due to the limitations of the mother. Therefore the embryo's right to life, which it could normally choose to waive through its human mother, is violated, since its animal mother is unable to communicate as much.
But I'm guessing that's not how you (or anyone else) are looking at the situation.
(Personally (and I'm not making an argument here, just an observation), as someone who believes (A) but not (B), I can't get agitated at this study; by my moral measure the violation of the animal mother's rights is way tamer than so many other ways animals' rights are violated in the name of science.)
If you believe that:
A) a mother may choose to let someone end the life of her own human fetus; and
B) animals have no right to control their own bodies,
then I don't see why there's any dissonance to believe:
→ a human may choose to end the life of an animal's human-like fetus.
It does not violate (A): the human-like fetus is no more special than a human fetus. It does not violate (B): the mother's right to control her own body/fetus does not exist, since the mother is a non-human animal.
Do you see it differently? How so?
I suppose one could make the case that, a human mother/embryo is a single symbiotic organism, which expresses its collective will through the mother. This new animal mother/human-like embryo symbiotic organism should be afforded some of the same rights as a fully human mother/embryo, but is unable to express its will due to the limitations of the mother. Therefore the embryo's right to life, which it could normally choose to waive through its human mother, is violated, since its animal mother is unable to communicate as much.
But I'm guessing that's not how you (or anyone else) are looking at the situation.
(Personally (and I'm not making an argument here, just an observation), as someone who believes (A) but not (B), I can't get agitated at this study; by my moral measure the violation of the animal mother's rights is way tamer than so many other ways animals' rights are violated in the name of science.)
> Like I say, I find it hard to describe how I feel about it all.
This is good, I like people that can recognize this. Cognitive dissonance should hurt. It's the people who can't feel it that I worry about being around...
This is good, I like people that can recognize this. Cognitive dissonance should hurt. It's the people who can't feel it that I worry about being around...
I love when I find I have cognitive dissonance as it means I have found something I believe to be true is actually false. Once I know something is false then it is easy to just stop believing it. Progress.
Thanks for replying on a sensitive topic.
> No, that's why I find it hard to describe how I feel.
Cognitive dissonance? Sorry to be snarky.
Cognitive dissonance? Sorry to be snarky.
Yup, I thought I made that clear in my op honestly....
You didn’t put a name on it, so it wasn’t clear to me at least.
I feel there's a new tendency to value animal life more than human life and I'm not sure how to feel about it.
I think it's eventually inevitable for non-human intelligent life to emerge. We were the first species. We think we are kings of the world. But we won't be in perpetuity.
This can happen through multiple ways.
The first way is through simple genetic drift. Think of humans colonizing the galaxy and living in isolated populations for millions of years. Eventually we turn into different species. So maybe there is one hominid species right now, but in 1 million years it will look way different.
Another way is through a human deliberately creating nonhuman intelligent, but still biological life. Think of people wanting their pets to be smarter, furries wanting to turn into half animals, or just experimentation for science like in this instance. Maybe 99% of society is repelled by this, but if you give the 1% which desires this enough time, they'll find an opportunity to bring such life into existence. However great the taboo, eventually someone will break it. And once there is nonhuman intelligent life, there will be people who want to protect it.
A third way is through humans creating silicon based life, e.g. to upload rich people to the cloud, letting them live there like gods. Maybe if you initially build such a system, you make the experience as similar to human experience as you can, with all the unpleasant parts of it removed, but the people it simulates may eventually grow tired of interacting with the fleshy human society that they form the elite of and instead focus on interacting with each other instead. Maybe they'll then accept changes in programming, allowing human brains to be merged, duplicated, for short times, or through random mixing, etc. I think computers allow a great deal of things and likely we'll try them out sooner or later.
To summarize, I think we are at the start of a cambrian explosion like event. Think what happens if you are the first plant that can grow on land. You'll quickly fill all the lands and your numbers will have no limit. But by the time you have done that, you are a collection of different species instead of just one because your siblings had to adapt to the different environments, and the species themselves are competing with each other.
Regarding aliens, I doubt we are alone in the galaxy. I'm sure there is independently developed, intelligent, life somewhere. But likely by the time we encounter them, we'll maybe already be a cluster of multiple intelligent species.
Or idk, maybe not. Maybe there is only one hominid species because we are so utterly racist and have eliminated anything that was even a little bit different from us :).
This can happen through multiple ways.
The first way is through simple genetic drift. Think of humans colonizing the galaxy and living in isolated populations for millions of years. Eventually we turn into different species. So maybe there is one hominid species right now, but in 1 million years it will look way different.
Another way is through a human deliberately creating nonhuman intelligent, but still biological life. Think of people wanting their pets to be smarter, furries wanting to turn into half animals, or just experimentation for science like in this instance. Maybe 99% of society is repelled by this, but if you give the 1% which desires this enough time, they'll find an opportunity to bring such life into existence. However great the taboo, eventually someone will break it. And once there is nonhuman intelligent life, there will be people who want to protect it.
A third way is through humans creating silicon based life, e.g. to upload rich people to the cloud, letting them live there like gods. Maybe if you initially build such a system, you make the experience as similar to human experience as you can, with all the unpleasant parts of it removed, but the people it simulates may eventually grow tired of interacting with the fleshy human society that they form the elite of and instead focus on interacting with each other instead. Maybe they'll then accept changes in programming, allowing human brains to be merged, duplicated, for short times, or through random mixing, etc. I think computers allow a great deal of things and likely we'll try them out sooner or later.
To summarize, I think we are at the start of a cambrian explosion like event. Think what happens if you are the first plant that can grow on land. You'll quickly fill all the lands and your numbers will have no limit. But by the time you have done that, you are a collection of different species instead of just one because your siblings had to adapt to the different environments, and the species themselves are competing with each other.
Regarding aliens, I doubt we are alone in the galaxy. I'm sure there is independently developed, intelligent, life somewhere. But likely by the time we encounter them, we'll maybe already be a cluster of multiple intelligent species.
Or idk, maybe not. Maybe there is only one hominid species because we are so utterly racist and have eliminated anything that was even a little bit different from us :).
I understand the sentiment, but given our track record of being OK with causing the suffering of billions of creatures capable of suffering - and in fact even being the reason those creators were born in the first place - I wouldn't be surprised if we brushed it aside relatively easily after the first few.
Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel touched on this. Neo Dogs are a novelty in society, a sideshow to the general public, but they have the Intelligence similar to a human moron, but is a Mozart for their species. And they use them in war, which is their main use. The recruiter that works with the protagonist, was a bonded partner. They bond deeply to their Neo Dog and if the Neo Dog dies, it is more humane to kill the handler immediately, or put them in a drug induced coma for a couple months and then rehabbing them. The recruiter was put into a coma, but is still dealing with the loss of his Neo Dog, and agrees that killing the handler asap is kinder than having to go through the rehab.
It's interesting that the novel assumes that the bonding is likely to be stronger than almost all other bonds humans form - for example, we grieve when our spouse, best friend or child dies, but we don't usually presume that euthanizing the grievers asap would be kinder than having them to go through grief and rehab. It would seem plausible for some of the individual bonds to be like that, but notas a general rule.
Yeah, the bonding process seems like immersion when learning a language, I figure that the handler's lost all connection to that unique world they were immersed in and couldn't cope. Kind of like losing your self identification when people rely on their jobs to give them an identity. Who are the handlers without the Neo Dogs?
>shouldn't we take responsibility for the results of our creation?
"I gave you life, I will take it" - Taras Bulba.
"I gave you life, I will take it" - Taras Bulba.
https://youtu.be/BpaRouocBes
>You perceive, now, that these things are all impossible except in a dream. You perceive that they are pure and puerile insanities, the silly creations of an imagination that is not conscious of its freaks—in a word, that they are a dream, and you the maker of it.
Mark Twain
>You perceive, now, that these things are all impossible except in a dream. You perceive that they are pure and puerile insanities, the silly creations of an imagination that is not conscious of its freaks—in a word, that they are a dream, and you the maker of it.
Mark Twain
Other piece of Russian literature is also relevant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_a_Dog
The story of turning dog into a man by transferring a part of the human brain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_a_Dog
The story of turning dog into a man by transferring a part of the human brain
Replace "new species" with "human fetus" and it's basically the same argument that surrounds abortion.
I am not saying one side or the other is correct, I honestly don't hold a strong opinion on this issue.
Just that we can imagine a certain hypocrisy in a society that is against creating/terminating one life prematurely (smart monkeys)... but yet withholds the same rule against it's own species offspring (humans).
I am not saying one side or the other is correct, I honestly don't hold a strong opinion on this issue.
Just that we can imagine a certain hypocrisy in a society that is against creating/terminating one life prematurely (smart monkeys)... but yet withholds the same rule against it's own species offspring (humans).
> The cat's out of the bag with this research so to speak now. Someone's bound to do this again
If they do it again and again and again, the progress will be substantial, and society stands to benefit enormously.
With exponential increases in the parts of the brain responsible for intelligence, morality and justice, imagine a future president of the United States elected from this cohort.
If they do it again and again and again, the progress will be substantial, and society stands to benefit enormously.
With exponential increases in the parts of the brain responsible for intelligence, morality and justice, imagine a future president of the United States elected from this cohort.
>These scientists essentially created what may have been a new species, that perhaps would have had similar sentience to us and had them terminated after 100 days.
If that is true then these scientists made the right judgment and they should stop with these types of experiments. What are you going to do with these intelligent but still less than human animals? Let them integrate into society and become a source of conflict? We already have enough conflict between humans over trivial matters as it is. If you add an explicit difference between two parties like a different species then conflicts will continue forever until one side is extinct.
If this research succeeds there will be two potential scenarios: Easily controlled monkey slaves doing manual labor or alternatively those monkeys receive extensive genetic engineering because of lack of ethics to outperform us and therefore replace us.
I don't want either.
If that is true then these scientists made the right judgment and they should stop with these types of experiments. What are you going to do with these intelligent but still less than human animals? Let them integrate into society and become a source of conflict? We already have enough conflict between humans over trivial matters as it is. If you add an explicit difference between two parties like a different species then conflicts will continue forever until one side is extinct.
If this research succeeds there will be two potential scenarios: Easily controlled monkey slaves doing manual labor or alternatively those monkeys receive extensive genetic engineering because of lack of ethics to outperform us and therefore replace us.
I don't want either.
If it makes you feel any better, a brain that young, even if identical to that of a baby, is probably not sentient. AFAIK, current research pegs the early development of sentience around 150 days.
Despite that, I'm a bit unsettled by this too. I think we should understand the mind a bit more before we go down the path of creating one.
Despite that, I'm a bit unsettled by this too. I think we should understand the mind a bit more before we go down the path of creating one.
[deleted]
> Nature took a long long time to get to this point where life has come to a sort of balance
There is no balance. It's an illusion of selection bias and inability to consider time-scales not at the human scale.
There is no balance. It's an illusion of selection bias and inability to consider time-scales not at the human scale.
"Is it right to create something that may be similar to us and then not even give it a chance to live?" If trying to be "good" doesn't this thought come off as really selfish? Just because something is more similar to us it should have more right to live? These thoughts are just basic survivalist instincts wrapped in nice 21st century "morals". We will do whatever the hell we want in the end and maybe we eradicate ourselves in the end before something else does
Can we please use paragraphs to create a coherent thought/point rather than a series of one-liners? Perhaps spend a little more time to think through/build out your thoughts. It is more interesting for your reader and (I think) promotes more nuanced conversation if we all spend more time thinking about our ideas before we rush to post.
Note, this is not specific to the parent post but just a general comment made with the hope of raising the level of conversation beyond twitter.
Note, this is not specific to the parent post but just a general comment made with the hope of raising the level of conversation beyond twitter.
How is this any different from the abortion debate? As long as it’s not sentient does it matter? There are far bigger ethical considerations than just this feud. Presumably the monkey pregnant with this fetus wasn’t naturally impregnated, and you didn’t want the monkey to accidentally damage the fetus, so was the monkey caged it even conscious during the gestation period? Lots of horrifying things to consider if you go down there rabbit hole.
> The part about whether they should have been born or not, which was the ethical thing is what tears at me.
I gotta say... for me, this is close to murder. I realize these things are complicated but if it was a hybrid species, we might not know how close it was to us. It may have been close and it would absolutely be murder to kill a 100 day old child.
I think if it could potentially be murder you should just error on the side of caution.
I gotta say... for me, this is close to murder. I realize these things are complicated but if it was a hybrid species, we might not know how close it was to us. It may have been close and it would absolutely be murder to kill a 100 day old child.
I think if it could potentially be murder you should just error on the side of caution.
I would like to see it be born. I want to know where this goes. What other genes it needs to become superior, or what genes we can tweak to optimize some things further.
Humans are have tons of issues including cellular and cognitive deficiencies. This is a way to learn more about that and fix it.
Sure, someone will make the new slave labor force, let's cross that bridge when we get there.
Humans are have tons of issues including cellular and cognitive deficiencies. This is a way to learn more about that and fix it.
Sure, someone will make the new slave labor force, let's cross that bridge when we get there.
"Is it right to create something that may be similar to us and then not even give it a chance to live?"
The only difference between this and abortion is that the species is somehow "novel".
You should resolve the ethical issues with genetic engineering research in a similar way to however you resolve the ethical issues related to abortion.
The only difference between this and abortion is that the species is somehow "novel".
You should resolve the ethical issues with genetic engineering research in a similar way to however you resolve the ethical issues related to abortion.
Bit of a catch 22. We can’t understand it if we arent allowed to play with it but we can’t play with it without understanding it?
The potential good that can come out of this drastically out weighs the bad.
Unless you’re a pacifist vegan, I find such thinking deeply hypocritical.
The potential good that can come out of this drastically out weighs the bad.
Unless you’re a pacifist vegan, I find such thinking deeply hypocritical.
[deleted]
Feels like the beginning of the Uplift Saga. Spooky times.
You assume the Chinese have not already done something like this. The CCP would like nothing more than a population of semi-intelligent monkeys.
They were too concerned with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
It would be good to use science fiction to explore some of these ideas before we do them.
Pretty sure if we engineer smart monkeys they will quickly be bred for use as slaves.
What could possibly go wrong?
(Besides the obvious cruelty and injustice as well as the extreme likelihood of rebellion and creation of a world government of evil monkey overlords, which might not necessarily be worse than what we currently have.)
(Besides the obvious cruelty and injustice as well as the extreme likelihood of rebellion and creation of a world government of evil monkey overlords, which might not necessarily be worse than what we currently have.)
We have an ethical duty to seed life and uplift all species across the universe.
It would have probably died due to the skull not fitting the larger brain.
Nothing wrong with this, plus its good for future research.
The answer is simple: We massively fucked up chemistry in the last 100 years. How do we get the confidence to know we can't fuck up biology (much much much much more complex)?
> We massively fucked up chemistry
?
?
- Thalidomide
- Leaded fuel, the highest ever source of lead exposure and poisoning for Humans.
- Asbestos still present in 60' to 80's construction
- Refrigerants with Ozone destroying CFCs
- 1800's arsenic pesticides still contaminate today's rice fields and most of the world's rice crops.
- DDT
- Plastics are currently leaching estrogenic-mimicking endocrine disruptors and contaminating water supplies, wildlife and Humans.
That's just a few from memory, I am sure there are more.
Edit: yes as someone else commented our grenhouse gas emissions are probably the biggest elephant in the room
- Leaded fuel, the highest ever source of lead exposure and poisoning for Humans.
- Asbestos still present in 60' to 80's construction
- Refrigerants with Ozone destroying CFCs
- 1800's arsenic pesticides still contaminate today's rice fields and most of the world's rice crops.
- DDT
- Plastics are currently leaching estrogenic-mimicking endocrine disruptors and contaminating water supplies, wildlife and Humans.
That's just a few from memory, I am sure there are more.
Edit: yes as someone else commented our grenhouse gas emissions are probably the biggest elephant in the room
Thalidomide wasn’t a failure of chemistry, but of medicine.
CFCs were an amazing breakthrough as they stopped people getting gassed by their refrigerator and killed (ammonia was used before). Once a problem was identified then changes were made. Similar with asbestos (not actually chemistry), leaded fuel and DDT.
As for the others you have concentrated on the tiny percentage of bad outcomes rather then the millions of positive. Chemistry has been such an overwhelming good over the last 200 years that it takes a very special mind to see it in such a negative light.
CFCs were an amazing breakthrough as they stopped people getting gassed by their refrigerator and killed (ammonia was used before). Once a problem was identified then changes were made. Similar with asbestos (not actually chemistry), leaded fuel and DDT.
As for the others you have concentrated on the tiny percentage of bad outcomes rather then the millions of positive. Chemistry has been such an overwhelming good over the last 200 years that it takes a very special mind to see it in such a negative light.
Unnecessary ad hominem with the 'special mind' but I will try to bring it back to the actual discussion point.
All the points I mentioned were massive breakthroughs and improvements in their primary application. The point is they had massively wide scale secondary effects which Humans at the time were unable to predict.
You say a small percentage of outcomes but many of those small percentage of occurences have had a negative effect on the whole of Humanity and even a Planetary negative effect. Just because the are few applications it doesn't make their magnitude small.
The original argument from GGP was that we as a species have failed to forecast these secondary effects on Chemical compounds which are theoretically less complex systems than Biological ones (by simpler I don't mean with less merit).
If we fail to predict theses effects on a Chemical level, it follows that the claim that we can confidently make such changes on a Biological system without secondary effects is very weak.
In my comment I was not arguing that the last 3 centuries of Chemistry are a failure or that we should stop developing, I am providing supporting evidence that even a 'simple' field as Chemistry is already vastly more complex than we can currently predict, it follows that changes to a more complex Biological field will very likely introduce more complex secondary effects which we once again will fail to predict.
All the points I mentioned were massive breakthroughs and improvements in their primary application. The point is they had massively wide scale secondary effects which Humans at the time were unable to predict.
You say a small percentage of outcomes but many of those small percentage of occurences have had a negative effect on the whole of Humanity and even a Planetary negative effect. Just because the are few applications it doesn't make their magnitude small.
The original argument from GGP was that we as a species have failed to forecast these secondary effects on Chemical compounds which are theoretically less complex systems than Biological ones (by simpler I don't mean with less merit).
If we fail to predict theses effects on a Chemical level, it follows that the claim that we can confidently make such changes on a Biological system without secondary effects is very weak.
In my comment I was not arguing that the last 3 centuries of Chemistry are a failure or that we should stop developing, I am providing supporting evidence that even a 'simple' field as Chemistry is already vastly more complex than we can currently predict, it follows that changes to a more complex Biological field will very likely introduce more complex secondary effects which we once again will fail to predict.
I find it rather ironic that someone with the handle “DoingIsLearning” is arguing against doing new things.
Everything we do that is new has risks. History has shown us that the benefits of innovation far outweighs the costs. This does not mean progress comes with no downsides, but that the good is vastly better than the bad.
Many people seem so scared now of the possible risks that they are afraid to do anything really new. Living is risky, progress is risky, and not doing is even more risky.
Everything we do that is new has risks. History has shown us that the benefits of innovation far outweighs the costs. This does not mean progress comes with no downsides, but that the good is vastly better than the bad.
Many people seem so scared now of the possible risks that they are afraid to do anything really new. Living is risky, progress is risky, and not doing is even more risky.
> I find it rather ironic that someone with the handle “DoingIsLearning” is arguing against doing new things
(On top of trying to twist my words) I think this is where we diverge, I am not arguing.
I really mean this in a non snarky way, you should check the guidelines section 'In Comments' [0]. There is nothing wrong with pushing arguments like this, they just don't contribute anything to anybody else reading this.
If you want this kind of polarizing discussion, Twitter is probably a better platform.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
(On top of trying to twist my words) I think this is where we diverge, I am not arguing.
I really mean this in a non snarky way, you should check the guidelines section 'In Comments' [0]. There is nothing wrong with pushing arguments like this, they just don't contribute anything to anybody else reading this.
If you want this kind of polarizing discussion, Twitter is probably a better platform.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
> takes a very special mind to see it in such a negative light
It takes an even more special mind to pretend we know all the consequences, to assume our knowledge is complete and that there are no unknowns.
It takes an even more special mind to pretend we know all the consequences, to assume our knowledge is complete and that there are no unknowns.
Ah when something is 99.999% good let’s concentrate on the 0.001% that is bad.
Everything has consequences, including not doing something. If we didn’t act because of the “unknown” we would still be living in caves.
Everything has consequences, including not doing something. If we didn’t act because of the “unknown” we would still be living in caves.
Greenhouse effect
I’d guess talking about advances in physical chemistry and the ability to more closely model and understand how atoms interact?
This is the precursor to a dystopian ape lead future.
"YOU MANIACS. YOU BLEW IT UP. DAMN YOU! GOD DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!"
-Some astronaut in the future
"YOU MANIACS. YOU BLEW IT UP. DAMN YOU! GOD DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!"
-Some astronaut in the future
And yet you used the word "terminated". That poor thing was murdered. If we didn't have such technology, those scientists would feel at home in Nazi labs.
The fact they didn't let the fetus grow really fucking sucks. Sure, ethics most definitely has its name etched on the science stone.
But people WILL without a shred of doubt recreate this experiment, and they most likely won't be as ethically inclined as the nice folks behind this paper.
The point am trying to make here is that we need to be prepared to deal with how a discovery like could influence our future. The best way to do that is to know what expect with enough time ahead to react.
And yeah sure people will say this is just an excuse for morbidly curious people like me to simply see what happens, and while I'm literally brimming in desire to know myself, theres a bigger picture, bearing witness is just a perk:)
But people WILL without a shred of doubt recreate this experiment, and they most likely won't be as ethically inclined as the nice folks behind this paper.
The point am trying to make here is that we need to be prepared to deal with how a discovery like could influence our future. The best way to do that is to know what expect with enough time ahead to react.
And yeah sure people will say this is just an excuse for morbidly curious people like me to simply see what happens, and while I'm literally brimming in desire to know myself, theres a bigger picture, bearing witness is just a perk:)
Killing animals off after a sufficient time period is common in lab testing (and even enforced). They probably had to get approval for the 100 days and most likely wouldn’t be allowed to make any decisions regarding the matter themselves. That being said, most labs in the US have to abide by the same guidelines and if this does happen again in a setting where the scientists can choose an arbitrary age to let the fetus live it probably won’t be in the US
I have no idea what the process is for other countries like Germany in Japan but I’d like to think they’re similar.
I have no idea what the process is for other countries like Germany in Japan but I’d like to think they’re similar.
Let's all just agree that if that lil smart monkey was born, nobody's allowed to kill it until it dies a ripe old age of natural causes, and we hopefully teach it to play Winston in Overwatch.
Otherwise, that's way too close to murder - thank you very much.
Otherwise, that's way too close to murder - thank you very much.
This research is as terrific as it is terrifying. These are some terrific insights into the evolution of intelligence. I doubt that it was one gene alone that drove the whole thing, but as the article mentions, the ethical dilemmas already arise, and it's easy to see how scientifically valuable it would be to study the impact of the gene further by allowing the transgenic animals to be born. The ethical dilemmas cut both ways - research like this might be crucial to understanding Alzheimer's and other serious diseases. Complicated and difficult questions to be sure, but it's extraordinary and a testament to the power of science that we're even in a position to be asking those questions. Lets hope we answer them correctly.
Isn’t that literally the plot of the Planet of the Apes remake?
Maybe it is time for continental and east asian arms and self defence legislation to add an exception for putting down runaway lab experiments. Standing your ground and castle doctrines are privileges unique to America.
"My gift to industry is the genetically engineered worker, or Genejack. Specially designed for labor, the Genejack's muscles and nerves are ideal for his task, and the cerebral cortex has been atrophied so that he can desire nothing except to perform his duties. Tyranny, you say? How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?"
https://alphacentauri.gamepedia.com/Sheng-Ji_Yang
God, AC was a great game!
My favorite quote was:
"I sit in my cubicle, here on the motherworld. When I die, they will put my body in a box and dispose of it in the cold ground. And in all the million ages to come, I will never breathe, or laugh, or twitch again. So won't you run and play with me here among the teeming mass of humanity? The universe has spared us this moment."
Anonymous, Datalinks
Accompanies the Habitation Dome facility
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sid_Meier%27s_Alpha_Centauri
God, AC was a great game!
My favorite quote was:
"I sit in my cubicle, here on the motherworld. When I die, they will put my body in a box and dispose of it in the cold ground. And in all the million ages to come, I will never breathe, or laugh, or twitch again. So won't you run and play with me here among the teeming mass of humanity? The universe has spared us this moment."
Anonymous, Datalinks
Accompanies the Habitation Dome facility
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sid_Meier%27s_Alpha_Centauri
https://paeantosmac.wordpress.com/ You'll love this, then. Bryan Reynolds even showed up to clarify a couple of things in the comments, even!
So "Planet of the Apes" was not so far fetched after all.
Now somewhere someone will think ... hmmm why can't we replace all our complaining factory workers and their wages/healthcare/retirement plans with these "creatures" and only pay them peanuts and banana's.
Now somewhere someone will think ... hmmm why can't we replace all our complaining factory workers and their wages/healthcare/retirement plans with these "creatures" and only pay them peanuts and banana's.
> Now somewhere someone will think ... hmmm why can't we replace all our complaining factory workers and their wages/healthcare/retirement plans with these "creatures" and only pay them peanuts and bananas.
Pretty sure Amazon and Uber are already on it.
Pretty sure Amazon and Uber are already on it.
> why can't we replace all our complaining factory workers and their wages/healthcare/retirement plans with these "creatures" and only pay them peanuts and banana's.
Automation would probably be cheaper, more consistent, and more effective.
Biology wasn't designed for production line work. Humans are really bad at it. Engineered primates might be better at it because they'd be engineered not to get bored or frustrated, but they'd still be a fraction of a % as efficient as a machine with 100 arms and conveyor belts.
Automation would probably be cheaper, more consistent, and more effective.
Biology wasn't designed for production line work. Humans are really bad at it. Engineered primates might be better at it because they'd be engineered not to get bored or frustrated, but they'd still be a fraction of a % as efficient as a machine with 100 arms and conveyor belts.
So we need monkeys with 100 arms, got it.
David Brin, Uplift Universe. Start with Startide rising. It covers this in a more interestingly ethical way I think.
and Sirius by Olaf Stapledon.
one of the most beautiful books ever written, and now by this news very prescient.
Brave New World had a similar idea
Future brainy monkeys will watch that movie like it’s a documentary.
There have already been issues with some coconut harvesting operations using monkeys as laborers.
We've been replacing factory workers with machines for 250 years. It's made us, including the remaining factory workers, very very rich, compared to where we started.
Productivity has gone up but wages haven't kept up. The owners are rich, sure, but we should be honest about the working class getting the short end of the stick here.
250 years ago people in England, among the richest in the world, lived considerably poorer lives that the worst in the third world today.
GDP per person has, to the extent it's possible to compare, gone up by 30x (3000%) since then.
GDP per person has, to the extent it's possible to compare, gone up by 30x (3000%) since then.
You're just repeating your point instead of addressing mine.
Oddly, I came up with a pretty good plan for Enslaving Humanity without most of them noticing (and the software architecture that would power it) during a Sunday Drive today.
I'll say that the concept I came up with was probably far far cheaper than gene therapy and could be reached in 5-10 years. So I wouldn't lose sleep over this
I'll say that the concept I came up with was probably far far cheaper than gene therapy and could be reached in 5-10 years. So I wouldn't lose sleep over this
Currently most of humanity is oblivious to it's enslavement, what does your strategy add?
[deleted]
Unless you can think of any steps to prevent your plan from working, try to forget about it. Somebody will re-invent it later, but that'll be later. We've created more of the readily-accessible good technology than the readily-accessible bad technology, and it'll take an active effort to keep it that way.
This is crucial in order to maintain ethical boundaries. After about 100 days after the fetus had been growing, the international team unanimously agreed to remove the fetus through a C-section
I feel we’ve already entered into sensitive territory by aborting it.
I feel we’ve already entered into sensitive territory by aborting it.
Yeah, aborting in some circles is the same as murder so the "ethics" is a bit blurry here. The crossed the line by creating life and then they killed what could essentially be something that could have had the intelligence of a regular human being.
I'm not an anti-abortionist but I can't deny that the ethics in this area is blurry. Even worse is when you're aborting genetically modified life.
I'm not an anti-abortionist but I can't deny that the ethics in this area is blurry. Even worse is when you're aborting genetically modified life.
> I can't deny that the ethics in this area is blurry
If you don't like the ethics of aborting a monkey fetus because it is "like murder", you're going to hate what happens to lab monkeys they don't abort.
If you don't like the ethics of aborting a monkey fetus because it is "like murder", you're going to hate what happens to lab monkeys they don't abort.
> aborting in some circles is the same as murder so the "ethics" is a bit blurry here
You give those circles too much credit, it's like the mythical flat-earthers. I don't know anyone who feels that way and would expect only countries like saudi arabia to have problems with abortion (though I recently learned it's also state-dependent in the USA). Probably takes some time to get the people of countries in various states of development to get used to the idea, similar to rights for black people, euthanasia, gay marriage, transgender acceptance, etc. Everyone being equal and aiming to decrease worldsuck is a process that takes time for some reason, and I don't know of a country that has moved the other direction for a significant amount of time (heck, an unexpectedly large majority of babies around the world get vaccinations nowadays) so we'll get there eventually.
You give those circles too much credit, it's like the mythical flat-earthers. I don't know anyone who feels that way and would expect only countries like saudi arabia to have problems with abortion (though I recently learned it's also state-dependent in the USA). Probably takes some time to get the people of countries in various states of development to get used to the idea, similar to rights for black people, euthanasia, gay marriage, transgender acceptance, etc. Everyone being equal and aiming to decrease worldsuck is a process that takes time for some reason, and I don't know of a country that has moved the other direction for a significant amount of time (heck, an unexpectedly large majority of babies around the world get vaccinations nowadays) so we'll get there eventually.
I don't really care about the politics of it. It doesn't really effect my life. I'm slightly supporting abortion because I'm concerned about the quality of life of the mother and father.
However I am saying that the ethical logic is sound. What's the difference between killing a man versus killing the man while he's still a baby inside his mother?
That being said there are scenarios where the above logic does get seemingly absurd. At what point is it considered murder? If I use a condom, I'm basically aborting sperm, because anyone of those little guys can become a full blown human being. Is that murder?
Note that I used the word "seemingly" it seems absurd but the question is worth considering as much as abortion itself. Is using a condom murder? Is abortion murder? I don't know. But the ethical paradox is real.
However I am saying that the ethical logic is sound. What's the difference between killing a man versus killing the man while he's still a baby inside his mother?
That being said there are scenarios where the above logic does get seemingly absurd. At what point is it considered murder? If I use a condom, I'm basically aborting sperm, because anyone of those little guys can become a full blown human being. Is that murder?
Note that I used the word "seemingly" it seems absurd but the question is worth considering as much as abortion itself. Is using a condom murder? Is abortion murder? I don't know. But the ethical paradox is real.
I am in that circle, so what?
Scientist: we’ve created the first new sapient species in the last million years.
Oh now it’s extinct.
Killing of inconvenient people is one level of messed up.
This is just freaking insane.
Killing of inconvenient people is one level of messed up.
This is just freaking insane.
Terrifying and terrific news, awesome finding with tremendous ethical questions and dilemmas. For sure we’re living in an interesting era and more similar topics (AI, gene editing, implants, nano/bio alterations...) are going to appear more often.
To lighten up the discussion and with fear of getting downvoted, two funny thoughts that came to my mind while reading about these news. - They surely picked the wrong year/time period to make this announcement. - Our technology has allowed us to increase brains of monkeys but we still don’t have the technology needed for a properly working windows update service.
To lighten up the discussion and with fear of getting downvoted, two funny thoughts that came to my mind while reading about these news. - They surely picked the wrong year/time period to make this announcement. - Our technology has allowed us to increase brains of monkeys but we still don’t have the technology needed for a properly working windows update service.
Is there a better source? I'd like to know what gene they added and if there is any reason to believe that could have been an evolutionary step. Gene's dont appear whole out of nowhere. Was it an extra copy of an existing gene? A mutation and duplication? Some weird replication error?
The source is this article: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/369/6503/546
The gene is ARHGAP11B under the control of its usual human-specific promoter.
The gene is ARHGAP11B under the control of its usual human-specific promoter.
I'm also curious about all the related morphological changes that must go along with increased brain size, such as different proportions of the skull and face and wider hips on females to accommodate birth. It seems unlikely one gene can modulate all of those, let alone yield the social structures required for increased rearing time.
Developmental biology has a whole lot of plasticity and works primarily by self-organization of cell populations. It’s not a computer program where you have to allocate memory for skulls, eyes, ears and more — it’s actually more like a population of organisms that align themselves towards specific goals (“hey team, we need a hand — now time for fingers! You guys in the middle, die off!”)
You can think of a gene for i.e. brain size just being an instruction that’s “you can press harder on the other populations to maximize your growth” and the other populations are likely to accommodate the stress during development, and change size and shape accordingly.
There are of course harmful mutations that are unable to be compensated for and lead to failure to thrive, but when you see a successful morphological mutation it’s because the systems are very adept at integrating new stimulus during growth.
(Similarly, social structures are emergent properties as well.)
You can think of a gene for i.e. brain size just being an instruction that’s “you can press harder on the other populations to maximize your growth” and the other populations are likely to accommodate the stress during development, and change size and shape accordingly.
There are of course harmful mutations that are unable to be compensated for and lead to failure to thrive, but when you see a successful morphological mutation it’s because the systems are very adept at integrating new stimulus during growth.
(Similarly, social structures are emergent properties as well.)
I found another article that covers the origin of the gene here:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/06/200618150301.h...
If they tried allowing the fetus to grow indefinitely would they have to figure out how to make the skull bigger or would the skull naturally grow along with the brain?
My understanding was that human babies have relatively flexible skulls at a young age?
My understanding was that human babies have relatively flexible skulls at a young age?
Had the same question, how can the brain get bigger without having a bigger head?
I am overwhelmed with curiosity about what the animal would have been like if it had been allowed to live. Imagine that it was smart enough to speak or resemble humans even more closely than monkeys already do... imagine how earth shattering that would be. An entire race of beings to reconcile with. I wish they had let it live.
I wonder what political ramifications this would have. Say these monkeys were intelligent enough to have conversations with and they had thoughts and opinions on the world, but they weren't quite as smart as humans – they couldn't do advanced maths and were intellectually closer to young children – would we deny them the right to vote? Would we deny them employment rights? Etc...
If we did on what grounds would we do so? Lower average intelligence? How exactly could we do that while granting similar rights to humans with equivalently low IQs?
It's hard to imagine that this wouldn't destroy modern liberal societies. We would either grant them equal rights at a huge societal cost, or start denying rights based on intelligence which would come at a huge ethical cost.
I think about this a lot in regards to extinct human species. I often wonder what would happen if we found Neanderthals hiding out on an island somewhere. What rights would we give them? Would we allow them to bred with humans? It seems every answer is wrong.
If we did on what grounds would we do so? Lower average intelligence? How exactly could we do that while granting similar rights to humans with equivalently low IQs?
It's hard to imagine that this wouldn't destroy modern liberal societies. We would either grant them equal rights at a huge societal cost, or start denying rights based on intelligence which would come at a huge ethical cost.
I think about this a lot in regards to extinct human species. I often wonder what would happen if we found Neanderthals hiding out on an island somewhere. What rights would we give them? Would we allow them to bred with humans? It seems every answer is wrong.
Rights can already taken away from people who are declared legally incompetent [1]. Similar procedures could be used to give rights to monkeys that can prove mental competence (e.g., are able to meaningfully communicate and show an understanding of money and property).
[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/incompetence#content
[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/incompetence#content
The default is for humans to have rights, and in extreme cases those rights can be taken away.
It's very, very rare for a human to have to prove mental competence for any reason. We let mentally incompetent people grocery shop and drive cars and vote, knowing full well they're a danger (or at least not a net benefit). Every town in every country contains well-known incompetent citizens.
What's the default for intelligent non-humans?
Does each one have to prove mental competence? At what level: that of an average human, or that of the lowest competent human?
Is the default to assume they are competent, and have all the rights and privileges of a human, or is the default to assume they aren't competent and don't have those rights?
Personally, it makes sense to me to err on the side of "any being who tells me plainly that they want a vote gets to vote".
It's very, very rare for a human to have to prove mental competence for any reason. We let mentally incompetent people grocery shop and drive cars and vote, knowing full well they're a danger (or at least not a net benefit). Every town in every country contains well-known incompetent citizens.
What's the default for intelligent non-humans?
Does each one have to prove mental competence? At what level: that of an average human, or that of the lowest competent human?
Is the default to assume they are competent, and have all the rights and privileges of a human, or is the default to assume they aren't competent and don't have those rights?
Personally, it makes sense to me to err on the side of "any being who tells me plainly that they want a vote gets to vote".
>Say these monkeys were intelligent enough...
Great questions, we will need some good answers soon. Not so much for the monkeys, but for AI.
Great questions, we will need some good answers soon. Not so much for the monkeys, but for AI.
Yup. Ironically, it's in the context of AI where I first saw those questions being brought up. And there's an extra difficulty there: biological organisms can can reproduce only so fast. Software can reproduce as fast as you can provision new VMs in the data centre. So we can easily imagine suddenly going from 1 human-like AI program to a hundred billion instances of it, and then humanity becomes an insignificant minority from the point of view of democracy.
> we can easily imagine suddenly going from 1 human-like AI program to a hundred billion instances of it, and then humanity becomes an insignificant minority from the point of view of democracy.
What do you mean?
What do you mean?
It’s better not to think about that.
I have a theory that intelligence, consciousness, free will are very easy to evolve (we just haven't worked out how to do it yet - like many cellular processes). What is difficult is harnessing that free will to the evolutionary success of the organism.
The large brain is necessary as a harness, to control the intelligence, and enslave it to evolutionarily beneficial ends. Probably not just hardwired instincts, but also learns - probably, similar to animal intelligence.
Like a giant finite state machine, that prevents a turing machine from running certain programs that never halt. Of course, it can't catch all such programs, and a turing machine can transcend any such bound, but lowering the probability of running one is good enough.
Note that turing equivalence, the highest possible computational power, emerges from even the slightest complexity (apart from the infinite tape part).
Thus "intelligence" has appeared in countless individual animals: mammals, birds, spiders, perhaps plants too and bacteria (and is still so appearing), but it doesn't confer a survival advantage, so disappears. Many such creatures just sit there discerning patterns instead of surviving. Others do survive but by instinct, so the intelligence makes no difference.
The difficulty is putting freewill in the driver's seat.
The large brain is necessary as a harness, to control the intelligence, and enslave it to evolutionarily beneficial ends. Probably not just hardwired instincts, but also learns - probably, similar to animal intelligence.
Like a giant finite state machine, that prevents a turing machine from running certain programs that never halt. Of course, it can't catch all such programs, and a turing machine can transcend any such bound, but lowering the probability of running one is good enough.
Note that turing equivalence, the highest possible computational power, emerges from even the slightest complexity (apart from the infinite tape part).
Thus "intelligence" has appeared in countless individual animals: mammals, birds, spiders, perhaps plants too and bacteria (and is still so appearing), but it doesn't confer a survival advantage, so disappears. Many such creatures just sit there discerning patterns instead of surviving. Others do survive but by instinct, so the intelligence makes no difference.
The difficulty is putting freewill in the driver's seat.
> intelligence, consciousness, free will
Monkeys and many, many other animals already have the first two, and whether there is such a thing as "free will" hasn't even been settled for humans.
In fact it's pretty hard to prove an animal doesn't have consciousness, and we just keep and keep adding to the list of animals that have consciousness and experience human-like emotions. We humans really aren't so special in that regard.
The next level is a bit more interesting, which is the question of which animals are able to develop a theory of mind, for which you need both consciousness and some intelligence.
Monkeys and many, many other animals already have the first two, and whether there is such a thing as "free will" hasn't even been settled for humans.
In fact it's pretty hard to prove an animal doesn't have consciousness, and we just keep and keep adding to the list of animals that have consciousness and experience human-like emotions. We humans really aren't so special in that regard.
The next level is a bit more interesting, which is the question of which animals are able to develop a theory of mind, for which you need both consciousness and some intelligence.
If you want to know what science fiction thought of this kind of thing in 1896, read the Island of Dr Moreau -- an eccentric scientist in exile modifies animals into more human forms.
So what exactly is inherently unethical about letting this engineered organism live? Is it a violation of "Christian" ethics of playing God? If so, we've already gone way past that point with modern medicine and things like genetic engineering of mosquitoes.
If it's a fear of how society reacts to the organism surviving and causing an upheaval of life philosophy, isn't all science then unethical?
If it's a fear of how society reacts to the organism surviving and causing an upheaval of life philosophy, isn't all science then unethical?
The "science ethics" system looks uncomfortably like an awkward religion to me.
People will claim that certain things "are unethical", as if that is a simple uncomplicated fact.
People will claim that certain things "are unethical", as if that is a simple uncomplicated fact.
I think it's less about any societal reaction and more about the organism's experience.
It would be more useful to perform similar genetic experiments on human beings, in any case. But I imagine that you would be opposed to that?
It would be more useful to perform similar genetic experiments on human beings, in any case. But I imagine that you would be opposed to that?
I mean we've collectively decided that we do not care about the experience of mice and rats as we kill and perform all kinds of experiments on them in the lab, not to mention the meat industry. I'm not anti-meat or anything, just pointing out that we've chosen that certain living beings do not have the right to a good life. Why would this science experiment be treated differently?
And no, I wouldn't be opposed to human testing if there were humans who were willing to sign up for it, but it could be worrisome to take care that vulnerable people are not taken advantage of.
And no, I wouldn't be opposed to human testing if there were humans who were willing to sign up for it, but it could be worrisome to take care that vulnerable people are not taken advantage of.
Why would you be opposed to that?
[deleted]
The interesting thing about gene ARHGAP11B is that it is a truncated version of ARHGAP11A, meaning that it was caused by a degenerative mutation, which goes totally against creationist arguments that degenerative mutations can never lead to improvements, let alone the development of new species. This should be mentioned in every textbook about evolution to counter the arguments of creationists.
Creationists are convinced by stories, not facts.
I don't get your argument about degenerative mutations. All nonsilent mutations change a perfectly fine working protain so they are all 'degenerative'? Conversely, insertion of random garbage in the middle of a an exon does not delete anything so it's not 'degenerative'?
Some creationist are reasoning that because mutations in genes usually have a negative effect, evolution can not lead to improvements. Here we have an example of a gene that became shorter (probably due to a mutation (deletion, change or insertion) in the middle causeing a stop to be encoded) and lead to a significant improvement, even to the extend that it resulted in a new species. Even if creationist accept that evolution is possible to some extend like we see in dogs, they argue that it cannot lead to the development of new species. Now some people, especially those from pro-life camps who usually support the idea of evolution, are having ethical problems, because they feel that due to a generative mutation a new species of ape has been created.
Oh you want to argue science with creationists? We could just point them to oncogenes then - genes that are a bit "broken" normally, so they don't get expressed or don't make a viable protein but a mutation can "fix" them so that they can perform their "normal" function. Unfortunately, that normal function causes cancer.
Evolution vs Creationism is such a false dichotomy! There are MANY scientists who make this claim. That doesn't mean they are creationists. They simply aren't accepting that mutations are sufficient. Which is a perfectly reasonable and scientific claim to make.
The fetus would probably not have3 survived. You can't just make the brain bigger and expect everything else to work out. Example problems: skull too small, eyes and everything around the brain would have to be reconfigured, heart/blood supply would have to be reconfigured, etc etc. Some examples of how this goes wrong in humans (graphic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anencephaly
This describes a lot of human anatomy. Head too big for mother’s’ hips. Spine warped for upright posture. Constantly choking for having a bent throat.
Are they going to call him Caesar?
If only it was born out.
From an engineering perspective, when trying to explore a dynamic, you simplify the experiment to reduce extraneous variables. So along these lines, I’d be more interested in following experiments like these on say sea slugs. Give them a proto-amygdala/hippocampus or limbic system and test them for increased memory, adaptive behavior etc. This choice of monkey experiment seems to be more sensation and less investigation, on the spectrum.
unfortunately, the further you move generically from the human, the more extraneous variables you introduce and the lower the relevance of any result. There is a reason drugs and experiments are performed on primates. Any result you saw in say a sea slug would provide no insight into the human function.
The ideal experiment would be to delete the gene from a human, but this is unethical for obvious reasons.
The ideal experiment would be to delete the gene from a human, but this is unethical for obvious reasons.
I should have also said, I think it is premature to attempt genetic engineering of human brains for medical benefit. Intuitively I believe we are decades behind the amount of conceptual development and experimental validation we need to do to get a proper understanding of genetic brain engineering. So I think the ethics is spot on here, it's ethically wrong IMO because we don't know what we are doing. Ethically I don't see a problem messing with sea slugs, though no doubt some people might.
As far as I know, no scientist has attempted the genetic modification of human brains for medical benefit so it seems that nearly the whole world is aligned ethically. The whole world generally aligned that testing on non-human primates is OK if the fetus is not brought to term.
There are companies that offer human embryo screening based on intelligence, but this is more selection that modification.
There are companies that offer human embryo screening based on intelligence, but this is more selection that modification.
We support women knowingly giving birth to trisomy fetuses. We're in trolley problem territory here.
Can we improve our own brain this way? I mean, brain of our kind, not some already living person. What if we can create a creature smarter than us?
More likely the poor thing's going to be severely epileptic or have other debilitating brain malfunctions, if it would be viable at all. People here are reading way too much positive functional consequences into this manipulation.
In principle, of course genetic manipulation could be used as one tool to create a creature "smarter" than any human (whatever that means more specifically).
In practice, until we start having a much more coherent theory of functional brain physiology, applying the tool to that end pretty much amounts to mucking around, with likely tragic consequences.
In principle, of course genetic manipulation could be used as one tool to create a creature "smarter" than any human (whatever that means more specifically).
In practice, until we start having a much more coherent theory of functional brain physiology, applying the tool to that end pretty much amounts to mucking around, with likely tragic consequences.
Surely, but at what cost?
Exploratory human experimentation... maybe you're testing and aborting half developed humans which already many people would have significant problems, but eventually you're going to have to produce adults and not every experiment is going to be a success.
It's hard to think of a future of our species where self-modification is not part of our evolution, but it is a very powerful tool and like any power a lot of discipline has to go into not misusing it.
Somebody call Dr Moreau
Exploratory human experimentation... maybe you're testing and aborting half developed humans which already many people would have significant problems, but eventually you're going to have to produce adults and not every experiment is going to be a success.
It's hard to think of a future of our species where self-modification is not part of our evolution, but it is a very powerful tool and like any power a lot of discipline has to go into not misusing it.
Somebody call Dr Moreau
China is probably working on it.
Obviously, but the real issue would be figuring out how to tweak our genes to do so. Figuring out how to enlarge the brain of a monkey would've been much easier, because human genes provided a ready-made template for these researchers to use.
Not to be funny, but our brains/skulls are already large enough to really make giving birth legitimately dangerous to mothers. Making the head even bigger would not be welcome.
"To let them come to be born, in my opinion, would have been irresponsible as a first step,"
emphasis on the "as a first step"
Personally I don't believe that they destroyed fetus. And they give up of seeing end results?? C'mon...
It is an interesting ethical decision because it highlights a lot of assumptions about what is and is not ethical and moral. For example, take those that firmly believe abortion is murder. For them. then aborting this evolved fetus would be considered (to the extent that this applies to mutant non-human primates) the unethical thing to do, NOT the ethical thing to do. However, if you don't believe fetuses have inherent rights, etc, then the most ethical thing to do is to destroy the fetus before it does begin to reach that threshold where thorny ethical implications emerge.
This should never have gotten past ethical review. It’s the sort of shit that gives the word science a bad name.
And the payoff was...what, exactly? We already knew that ARHGAP11B would promote a bigger brain size and neocortex folding, so the theoretical benefit is really zero. We’re precisely no closer to understanding the history of human evolution.
So what practical use is creating monkeys with more human like brains? Winning a research grant? An award? Cheap labour?
How big does your brain have to be before you can see that this is a terrible idea?
And the payoff was...what, exactly? We already knew that ARHGAP11B would promote a bigger brain size and neocortex folding, so the theoretical benefit is really zero. We’re precisely no closer to understanding the history of human evolution.
So what practical use is creating monkeys with more human like brains? Winning a research grant? An award? Cheap labour?
How big does your brain have to be before you can see that this is a terrible idea?
It doesn't seem to be related to understanding "the history of human evolution" anymore.
I think the ethical questions here mostly revolve around how the resulting animal would be treated. It wouldn’t have the legal status of a person- although it might be one. So we would probably use it for slave labor, as a pet, probably not as food although there are probably people who would do that too given the opportunity. Certainly that’s how we treat other nonhuman animals. Or they might escape and the gene might start to circulate in wild populations. There’s no good way this pans out.
I feel this is a moon-landing like historical event without all the fireworks.
While a profound breakthrough, we’ll be creating, with luck, an animal that is what we are: one with consciousness. Which also means one with a lot of mental health issues, and other issues. (Disoriented, seeking identification, cognitive biases, ignorant yet certain, etc). Not bad, just is what it is. I think it’s important, though, for nature, to let it struggle for life like the rest of us, and care for it and learn from it. It, after all, is a part of life. If we’re in the ballpark that nature created sapiens, and we are thus a part of nature, and thus nature had a hand in this. The ethical thing to do is to let it become part of our “Data-Information-Knowledge-Wisdom library of life” sooner, rather than later. After all, as many have already said, it’s inevitable. And I agree.
> we’ll be creating, with luck, an animal that is what we are: one with consciousnes
You seem to be assuming that, right now, humans are the only animal with consciousness.
I doubt that's the case. Far from it.
You seem to be assuming that, right now, humans are the only animal with consciousness.
I doubt that's the case. Far from it.
Interesting, you’re right I’ve assumed that and actually have never thought about that.
The article says ARHGAP11B promotes the growth of upper-layer neurons.
Jeff Hawkins has this intriguing idea that the transition is all about the runaway growth of, in particular, grid cells which is slightly confusing in that the major place grid cells have been found is in the entorhinal cortex. If they're responsible for a vast amplification of the neocortex I'd expect them to be all over the neocortex.
Whatever the case, I wonder if the two relate and, in particular, just what upper-layer neurons do that lends them to such a vast array of applications?
Clearly though there was runaway brain growth at a particular point in time and I wonder how that worked in terms of Darwinian development? It's a striking change for what one assumes is a relatively brief period of time. Punctuated equilibrium, right?
Jeff Hawkins has this intriguing idea that the transition is all about the runaway growth of, in particular, grid cells which is slightly confusing in that the major place grid cells have been found is in the entorhinal cortex. If they're responsible for a vast amplification of the neocortex I'd expect them to be all over the neocortex.
Whatever the case, I wonder if the two relate and, in particular, just what upper-layer neurons do that lends them to such a vast array of applications?
Clearly though there was runaway brain growth at a particular point in time and I wonder how that worked in terms of Darwinian development? It's a striking change for what one assumes is a relatively brief period of time. Punctuated equilibrium, right?
Research ethics can so miopic... just delaying the inevitable. (Maybe to stretch research over multiple papers muahahaha.)
I agree with the other commenter that we should blue the human intelligence boundary as much as possible to trash human exceptionalism.
I agree with the other commenter that we should blue the human intelligence boundary as much as possible to trash human exceptionalism.
This is still 2020. Are we really flirting with a Planet of the Apes scenario right now?
This reminds me of "The Secret of NIMH" https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084649/
What a fabulous film that was. Never read the book.
The book was better (naturally); as I recall, they used technology instead of a "magic amulet" to work their way out of the problem, in keeping with the theme of hyperintelligent mice.
The sequels I thought were ok as well.
By his daughter, my one exception to sequels not by the author.
By his daughter, my one exception to sequels not by the author.
This is either going 28 Days Later or Planet of the Apes.
Has anyone seen Marlon Brando lately?
You were down-voted I think because people are not familiar with:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Island_of_Dr._Moreau_(1996...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Island_of_Dr._Moreau_(1996...
Super chimps A Meeting With Medusa Arthur C Clarke
My instantaneous thought: ethics.
I'm no extremist of any kind (not in politics nor religion nor technology, maybe a bit regarding what is related to the environment) but experiments related to "growing brains" are an absolute no-go for me.
Just when I thought that "2020" could not spawn any more surprises... :(
I'm no extremist of any kind (not in politics nor religion nor technology, maybe a bit regarding what is related to the environment) but experiments related to "growing brains" are an absolute no-go for me.
Just when I thought that "2020" could not spawn any more surprises... :(
People think AI is going to be silicon based. No, it's going to be genetically engineered primate brains.
I’m pretty sure Dean Koontz has written half a dozen sci-fi thrillers that explore the ramifications of creating super intelligent animals like this but I never thought it would be possible. Now I guess I don’t have to feel like I need to suspend disbelief to enjoy the story anymore.
"To let them come to be born, in my opinion, would have been irresponsible as a first step, because you don't know what kind of behavioral change you'll get." is code for "Do you think if we had done this we would tell you?"
Wish someone would try this with actual humans. Imagine the possibilities. Super genius.
I find it funny that some of the same people who are more than willing to abort (kill in some peoples opinion) actual humans, but are unwilling to kill a few animals for the advancement of humanity
[deleted]
A larger brain may not have been solely for intelligence, but to make humans into better running animals. It can help dissipate heat better.
I’m pretty sure I saw this movie - had Charlton Heston in it. You know someone is going to grow this to maturity, either an individual researcher looking for fame or a sovereign state looking for prestige, then of course we’ll have to know if the mutations are propagated.
Joe Rogan entered the chat.
This can't possibly go wrong...
I await their contributions to Hacker News with bated breath.
Charlton Heston would like a word with these scientists.
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What could possibly go wrong?
This is simply unethical.
Planet of the Apes
[deleted]
We've already had the plague this year, bring on the intelligent monkeys...
Where do I buy tickets to an Elon Musk rocket now?
Where do I buy tickets to an Elon Musk rocket now?
Elon booked the entire flight for himself. He just wants to go home.
https://xkcd.com/979/
To future researchers, here is where 2020 finally jumped the shark. Best wishes.
To future researchers, here is where 2020 finally jumped the shark. Best wishes.
for a long time i have felt this was a serious problem.
However, it didn't seem to me that they would get this far, this soon.
Someone's bound to take the next step. The philosophical hunger for other sentient species, the egotistical ambition to be a creator, and the pervasive desire to tinker will lead to progressively more and more amoral research projects, in whatever timeframe the researchers believe the public will accept.
It starts with experimental fetuses. It will ultimately mean research subjects. It starts with a few genes here and there. It will ultimately mean trying to fully unlock what genes lead to what traits via transplanting them. It presently merely means the monkey would be more intelligent.ultimately, however, they would be capable of and likely willing to experiment with human-animal chimeras. They will tell us this will expand our sources of surrugate organ donors. They will tell us this will help us understand our own genome.
What they wont do is accept moral culpability for academic consequences. The research will be proliferated and each laboratory will go a little bit further.
Eventually we will see genetic engineering taken too far. And it's not just research on the genetic origins of mammal traits.
We'll see scientists who want to create synthetic life. Who may want to modify nature so that it is more efficient, which is to say, loses the survival bonus conferred by millions of years of evolution in favor of a streamlined metabolism oriented to anthropocene conditions. They will want to engineer species and to engineer species extinction.
This will likely eventually mean a loss of species diversity and the destruction of entire ecological systems, every time it happens, sooner or later.
Today it is mosquitos. Tomorrow the corporate morality may serve a different, but equally wealthy and powerful authority, one with less scruples and a more pragmatic, selfish perspective. Tomorrow it may be flies, or even wild rabbits. Whatever exists to the detriment of man, man will eventually justify the destruction of. Whatever exists to the benefit of man, eventually, the temptation of power and influence may yet bring about, as undavoidably and unstoppably as death and taxes.
And scientists, no matter how ethical they are today about publishing their research findings and their methods, will eventually make their learning known as it becomes commonplace. Each new landmark finding will become wikipedia articles at the same time the competitors discover the effect, because nobody wants to miss out on the fame and fortune. Any attempt to censor, classify, or restrict the publication of research that might prove dangerous will ultimately only delay, not prevent the opening of pandoras box.
The era of custom-tailored biological weapons of viral, fungal, bacterial, and parasitical origins, capable of things far more terrifying than anything cobbled up in an imaginary video game, for sale to, or even created by, various governments, seperationist movements, and terrorist organizations- even down to single individuals- is not a fantasy. The experts are concerned, but can do nothing. The wheel of progress turns, no matter who stands with their shoulder against it. We have, maybe a decade, maybe two.
Eventually the kind of people you do not want conceiving of genocidal and maniacal schemes will have reasonable materials, a great swath of research materials, and a plentitude of futuristic methods in their arsenal. They'll make the kind of pathogen that makes smallpox, ebola, and anthrax look like harmless little playthings for drunken grad students. It is not a matter of if- it is merely a matter of when.
All of these things are merely a matter of when, not if.
It may soon be time for the butlerian revolution of the genome. For a luddism of the soul. I will stand by and watch only so long. If required, I plan to take a side. I will likely be siding with those who would burn these hallowed halls of academie to the ground, regardless of what great remorse and lacrimonious wailing it produces in my soul. I hope you understand. It would be better, of course, if we could just move all this research offworld where it would be safe and we could control what portions of it enter our realm via a worldwide watchdog network based on the moon. We shall see. It shall certainly come in our lifetimes.
However, it didn't seem to me that they would get this far, this soon.
Someone's bound to take the next step. The philosophical hunger for other sentient species, the egotistical ambition to be a creator, and the pervasive desire to tinker will lead to progressively more and more amoral research projects, in whatever timeframe the researchers believe the public will accept.
It starts with experimental fetuses. It will ultimately mean research subjects. It starts with a few genes here and there. It will ultimately mean trying to fully unlock what genes lead to what traits via transplanting them. It presently merely means the monkey would be more intelligent.ultimately, however, they would be capable of and likely willing to experiment with human-animal chimeras. They will tell us this will expand our sources of surrugate organ donors. They will tell us this will help us understand our own genome.
What they wont do is accept moral culpability for academic consequences. The research will be proliferated and each laboratory will go a little bit further.
Eventually we will see genetic engineering taken too far. And it's not just research on the genetic origins of mammal traits.
We'll see scientists who want to create synthetic life. Who may want to modify nature so that it is more efficient, which is to say, loses the survival bonus conferred by millions of years of evolution in favor of a streamlined metabolism oriented to anthropocene conditions. They will want to engineer species and to engineer species extinction.
This will likely eventually mean a loss of species diversity and the destruction of entire ecological systems, every time it happens, sooner or later.
Today it is mosquitos. Tomorrow the corporate morality may serve a different, but equally wealthy and powerful authority, one with less scruples and a more pragmatic, selfish perspective. Tomorrow it may be flies, or even wild rabbits. Whatever exists to the detriment of man, man will eventually justify the destruction of. Whatever exists to the benefit of man, eventually, the temptation of power and influence may yet bring about, as undavoidably and unstoppably as death and taxes.
And scientists, no matter how ethical they are today about publishing their research findings and their methods, will eventually make their learning known as it becomes commonplace. Each new landmark finding will become wikipedia articles at the same time the competitors discover the effect, because nobody wants to miss out on the fame and fortune. Any attempt to censor, classify, or restrict the publication of research that might prove dangerous will ultimately only delay, not prevent the opening of pandoras box.
The era of custom-tailored biological weapons of viral, fungal, bacterial, and parasitical origins, capable of things far more terrifying than anything cobbled up in an imaginary video game, for sale to, or even created by, various governments, seperationist movements, and terrorist organizations- even down to single individuals- is not a fantasy. The experts are concerned, but can do nothing. The wheel of progress turns, no matter who stands with their shoulder against it. We have, maybe a decade, maybe two.
Eventually the kind of people you do not want conceiving of genocidal and maniacal schemes will have reasonable materials, a great swath of research materials, and a plentitude of futuristic methods in their arsenal. They'll make the kind of pathogen that makes smallpox, ebola, and anthrax look like harmless little playthings for drunken grad students. It is not a matter of if- it is merely a matter of when.
All of these things are merely a matter of when, not if.
It may soon be time for the butlerian revolution of the genome. For a luddism of the soul. I will stand by and watch only so long. If required, I plan to take a side. I will likely be siding with those who would burn these hallowed halls of academie to the ground, regardless of what great remorse and lacrimonious wailing it produces in my soul. I hope you understand. It would be better, of course, if we could just move all this research offworld where it would be safe and we could control what portions of it enter our realm via a worldwide watchdog network based on the moon. We shall see. It shall certainly come in our lifetimes.
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
Planet of the Apes + Bladerunner.
nwpk(1)
Japan and German ... the two axis countries like pure race and better race. I am not sure it is better cf with those experiments in communist china. May be a bit as they will give birth there.
Interesting engineering is nothing interesting and it is not about engineering.
Good luck human.
Interesting engineering is nothing interesting and it is not about engineering.
Good luck human.
Planet of the Apes 2020
the island of dr moreau
As long as no one takes a monkey home we should be okay.
So, we are trying to make Planet of the Apes happen IRL?
Gorilla Grod approves.
(disclaimer: Grod is actually an ape not a monkey.)
(disclaimer: Grod is actually an ape not a monkey.)
No...they didn't. That's not how it works at all. smh
As a fan of the Planet of the Apes franchise, I like this article.
Next: give apes human-like hands suitable for tools.
Next: give apes human-like hands suitable for tools.
you want planet of the apes? Because, this is how you get planet of the apes!
Did anyone else think about "Planet of the Apes" after reading this?
Of course. Given the times, this in particular:
https://vimeo.com/120831063
Now I wonder what effect ARHGAP11B would have on a shark:
https://youtu.be/oSz9MDN-iac?t=71
https://vimeo.com/120831063
Now I wonder what effect ARHGAP11B would have on a shark:
https://youtu.be/oSz9MDN-iac?t=71
More like the Island of Dr Moreau, more obscure and quite a bit more disturbing.
Literally as soon as I read the title.
[deleted]
"God damn you all to hell!"
[off topic] I hate the mobile web! This site is another example of how I hate it. An ad wall that required me to scroll before I could accept and then after a few seconds a pop up to sign up for a newsletter. It’s awful...
Damnit, couldn't they have done this when Charlton Heston was still around to help out?
What the hell?!?
There is no pro-choice argument for killing the fetus here - the mother monkey is not sapient and was not consulted as to whether she wished to carry the potentially sapient baby to term or not.
This is straight up feticide.
There is no pro-choice argument for killing the fetus here - the mother monkey is not sapient and was not consulted as to whether she wished to carry the potentially sapient baby to term or not.
This is straight up feticide.
+1 to "There is no pro-choice argument for killing the fetus here"
There is no pro-choice analogy to make here.
As for the rest of your comment about feticide... I think there is room for discussion here.
There is no pro-choice analogy to make here.
As for the rest of your comment about feticide... I think there is room for discussion here.
Hmm doesn’t seem credible. Everyone knows that brain size has no effect on intelligence.
Yea, I was talking to a fruit fly yesterday...
Wait no, that’s not accurate because while larger brains don’t inherently equate to more intelligence, there is a minimum size for any given level of intelligence. That said, this wasn’t a test of intelligence, just how cells grow in response to specific genetic alterations.
Wait no, that’s not accurate because while larger brains don’t inherently equate to more intelligence, there is a minimum size for any given level of intelligence. That said, this wasn’t a test of intelligence, just how cells grow in response to specific genetic alterations.
But larger brains in monkeys do equate to larger social groups (dunbar's number. monkeyspheres) and could be a necessary precursor to civilization.
[deleted]
It’s important to separate changes across evolutionary timescales with individual mutations. Brian’s have a metabolic cost which promotes efficiency over time, but efficiency is just one of many relevant factors. A whale has significantly less relative metabolic cost per Lb of brain than a mouse. Further, individual mutations may be a net negative.
I didn’t realize that was scientific consensus. So that would imply that brains under a certain size are incapable of higher levels of intelligence? I don’t think that’s right... I thought the consensus was that brain size has no strong correlation with intelligence at all. That makes sense considering how neurons work, the connections they form seem like they would be more causal.
The scientific consensus is that from the evolutionary perspective, brain/body size is absolutely correlated with performance. This doesn't have to be general intelligence, but can be sensory processing ect.
That is not to say that structure isn't important too. This is especially relevant because the study observed some of the structural changes through to be associated with increased intelligence as well.
That is not to say that structure isn't important too. This is especially relevant because the study observed some of the structural changes through to be associated with increased intelligence as well.
Its a complicated question. Within the human species, the correlation is not that strong at all. In cross-species comparisons it tends to be quite strong, especially when considering brain to body weight ratios. Bird brains may be an interesting exception however, which I suspect can be quite intelligent, depending on how intelligence is measured.
Part of what makes that interesting is we are very good at some tasks that might be quite expensive, and really bad at some tasks that could be simple. In other words, our personal views on difficulty could be wildly off. For example assuming computer vision should be easy and chess hard.
Information processing is limited to the capacity of the network. So it is easy to see that very small brains cannot be very smart (there is no set of connections that can make fruit fly human-intelligent). However, having a large capacity network doesn’t mean it will result in high intelligence. So it’s necessary but not sufficient.
You'll never play Doom on a single NAND gate. Huge efforts in getting toasters, microwaves and pregnancy testers to run Doom notwithstanding.
But brains aren’t made of digital logic elements
You'll never play Doom on a single neuron.
You’ll never play doom on any amount of neurons... brains are not cpus
Why not? You could manually process the assembler on pen/paper. Sure the FPS might be a bit on the low side.
But you surely can on the computer simulating that single neuron :)
I’m pretty sure there’s sufficiently complex cellular machinery inside a neuron to run Doom if arranged in the right way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-body_mass_ratio
With an extra caveat:
> Recent research indicates that, in non-human primates, whole brain size is a better measure of cognitive abilities than brain-to-body mass ratio. The total weight of the species is greater than the predicted sample only if the frontal lobe is adjusted for spatial relation.[18] The brain-to-body mass ratio was however found to be an excellent predictor of variation in problem solving abilities among carnivoran mammals.[19]
With an extra caveat:
> Recent research indicates that, in non-human primates, whole brain size is a better measure of cognitive abilities than brain-to-body mass ratio. The total weight of the species is greater than the predicted sample only if the frontal lobe is adjusted for spatial relation.[18] The brain-to-body mass ratio was however found to be an excellent predictor of variation in problem solving abilities among carnivoran mammals.[19]
Another win for the heuristic "if someone says 'everyone knows X' it probably means X is false"
These scientists essentially created what may have been a new species, that perhaps would have had similar sentience to us and had them terminated after 100 days.
The cat's out of the bag with this research so to speak now. Someone's bound to do this again
The part about whether they should have been born or not, which was the ethical thing is what tears at me.
Is it right to create something that may be similar to us and then not even give it a chance to live?
I mean whether creating such a being is right or not in general i'm sure is up for debate.
I'm not religious, but if we're going to play god, shouldn't we take responsibility for the results of our creation?
I dunno, I find a lot of genetic engineering research to be a bit unsettling. We're playing with things we barely understand that could have consequences we can't even imagine.
Nature took a long long time to get to this point where life has come to a sort of balance. Assuming we can go in and just start blindly messing around and do better seems like an extreme level of arrogance that's going to end up blowing up in our faces.
Our track record for messing around with the fundamental fabric of reality and life isn't so good. We've ended up with some pretty terrifying things.