Amazon Key is a new service that lets couriers unlock your front door(theverge.com)
theverge.com
Amazon Key is a new service that lets couriers unlock your front door
https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/25/16538834/amazon-key-in-home-delivery-unlock-door-prime-cloud-cam-smart-lock
360 comments
Amazon is pitching the Amazon Locker tech to apartment buildings now https://techcrunch.com/2017/07/27/amazon-launches-the-hub-pa...
Having used them a bunch while working at Amazon they're super nice, but not very practical for large/heavy packages because I had to get them back home. Getting one at or near my home would obviously make me order everything I could to it. It would also remove my biggest complaint about AMZL deliveries not being able to get into my freaking mailroom.
Having used them a bunch while working at Amazon they're super nice, but not very practical for large/heavy packages because I had to get them back home. Getting one at or near my home would obviously make me order everything I could to it. It would also remove my biggest complaint about AMZL deliveries not being able to get into my freaking mailroom.
At the risk of driving further off topic, but AMZL delivery people being confused and/or unable to get into my building mailroom has been a particular nightmare the last few deliveries for me, too.
I appreciate they are trying to be more strict in their deliveries than in the past and want to try to lose fewer packages than they used to, but the tools at their disposal to handle this (versus UPS, FedEx, and USPS) are woefully under-developed. The web form to respond to delivery failures doesn't have enough options (and is very suburb focused at that), and at this point I would almost prefer a pickup location option and just pickup things from some equivalent of a UPS Store or Post Office.
Maybe they could put Amazon Lockers in Whole Foods or something?
(I guess to end somewhat on topic: the mailroom issue is precisely why Amazon Key wouldn't work for me. It seems like a far more suburban solution to the problem.)
I appreciate they are trying to be more strict in their deliveries than in the past and want to try to lose fewer packages than they used to, but the tools at their disposal to handle this (versus UPS, FedEx, and USPS) are woefully under-developed. The web form to respond to delivery failures doesn't have enough options (and is very suburb focused at that), and at this point I would almost prefer a pickup location option and just pickup things from some equivalent of a UPS Store or Post Office.
Maybe they could put Amazon Lockers in Whole Foods or something?
(I guess to end somewhat on topic: the mailroom issue is precisely why Amazon Key wouldn't work for me. It seems like a far more suburban solution to the problem.)
Every single AMZL package I've had in the past month has been delayed. What's more frustrating, there's no actual reason for it being delayed.
The last one that was delayed was delayed for 2 days. I contacted chat and apparently it was because they couldn't get into the mailroom and were waiting on delivery instructions.
I don't know from whom, because I was never contacted.
The last one that was delayed was delayed for 2 days. I contacted chat and apparently it was because they couldn't get into the mailroom and were waiting on delivery instructions.
I don't know from whom, because I was never contacted.
Same here. I had two in a row for which I was told had been "delivered", yet they didn't assign the pickup codes. Therefore, they were lost in limbo forever (although after some amount of time they just get returned to Amazon).
Both were Daily Deals, and Amazon refused to honor the sale price for replacements. Nice.
Both were Daily Deals, and Amazon refused to honor the sale price for replacements. Nice.
There's another locker company, Luxer One, that takes deliveries from all of the carriers, not just Amazon. Probably others out there.
With USPS P.O. Boxes, you can sign a side agreement (no additional cost) and they will accept other shippers' deliveries to you and hold them in the Post Office system as long as you use the proper street address format for the P.O..
Parcel Pending also does it. I've been in apartments that used Luxer One, and apartments that used Parcel Pending; as a consumer there really is no differentiator.
The Hub lockers (i would say Amazon lockers as well? i've always seen UPS people filling them...) can accept deliveries from all delivery services, not just AMZL.
There is a set of amazon lockers at my local Whole Foods. They're one step ahead of you every time!
Unfortunately, not all Whole Foods Market stores.
Turns out that competitors like Target don’t like this practice, and if they have a rental agreement with the landlord that lets them place restrictions on what kinds of services will be allowed on the property, then they will use those to keep out competitors.
The only choice for Whole Foods is to put their store in, but they can’t have an Amazon Locker.
Turns out that competitors like Target don’t like this practice, and if they have a rental agreement with the landlord that lets them place restrictions on what kinds of services will be allowed on the property, then they will use those to keep out competitors.
The only choice for Whole Foods is to put their store in, but they can’t have an Amazon Locker.
> I can only conclude that the real goal is to get you to install those cameras
I suspect that the ultimate goal is to grant home access to their home-services pros (ie home cleaners) while you are away.
I suspect that the ultimate goal is to grant home access to their home-services pros (ie home cleaners) while you are away.
Why can't the real goal be the stated one? It's already very beneficial to Amazon, serving to further build a moat around Amazon being where you buy everything.
This constant lazy conspiracy theorizing every time a large company does anything is really grating.
This constant lazy conspiracy theorizing every time a large company does anything is really grating.
But it's also a worthwhile exercise. Should we just always take them at their word? History has proven we shouldn't.
i was responding to the parent who said " I can only conclude" so i thought that providing an alternative conclusion would add to the discussion.
i don't think this is lazy conspiracy... many amazon pages in the U.S. heavily promote their home services offerings so it is clearly an important initiative for them. furthermore, "amazon key" does solve a really big problem with home services: service pros typically work during the business day, but some (perhams most) of the best customers are at work during that time.
i don't think this is lazy conspiracy... many amazon pages in the U.S. heavily promote their home services offerings so it is clearly an important initiative for them. furthermore, "amazon key" does solve a really big problem with home services: service pros typically work during the business day, but some (perhams most) of the best customers are at work during that time.
Kind of an amazing age where the concept of a butler on demand is available to the middle class. I don't like the idea for myself, but the concept is incredible.
Actually, for the middle class (which was admittedly somewhat smaller than what we may think of as "middle class" now) domestic help was pretty normal before the 20th century. http://www.bradford-delong.com/2013/01/agatha-christie-i-nev... is somewhat telling; Agatha Kristie's Wikipedia entry says her family was "upper middle-class", but it's not that common for families like that to have live-in help nowadays. Except maybe au pair arrangements.
Having occasional domestic help has been typical of the middle class in capitalist societies for a long time; in early capitalist societies, often full-time rather than occasional, but with smaller staff than the upper class.
That's a good point. There are probably other possibilities, but I think that this is about more than package delivery.
Haven't a bunch of people failed to establish themselves as that particular middleman?
(pretty much because anyone good at doing the cleaning can just cut out the middleman)
(pretty much because anyone good at doing the cleaning can just cut out the middleman)
> if it fails, the failure is contained
What about the failure mode when the courier doesn't follow your parents instructions and leaves the package on the porch?
Now you have the code to the lockbox of the key to the house sitting on the porch where anyone who approaches can gain access to the house.
What about the failure mode when the courier doesn't follow your parents instructions and leaves the package on the porch?
Now you have the code to the lockbox of the key to the house sitting on the porch where anyone who approaches can gain access to the house.
The lockbox was for the packages themselves, not for the keys to the house.
Oh boy, took your comment to finally get this. I take lockbox to mean the thing you put on the front door itself to gain access to the house.
It means that, too - real estate agents use the term for the little key box they use to let other agents see vacant houses.
Personally I'd use the term "locker" to refer to a box placed outside in which to store packages.
Personally I'd use the term "locker" to refer to a box placed outside in which to store packages.
You change the code, and a few packages get stolen just as would happen if you didn't have the box.
Don't put your house key inside the lockbox!
> ...in fact, it's so much a better solution that I can't imagine Amazon hadn't considered it.
I agree that it seem a better solution to the one scenario you're mentioning: delivering packages.
But if you watch the video in the article [1], they describe other scenarios: "maybe let in your dog walker, a friend, or maybe to let in a team of cleaning ninjas"
I don't think it's too far-fetched to see the 'friend' here being actually your airbnb guest. Many airbnb homes already use a rudimentary lockbox with code, if the guest can now instead set up something on their amazon account and know they'll be able to get in (at least the initial check-in, and have a key waiting on the coffee table), it could make the experience smoother for the guests, and the host as well.
[1] https://youtu.be/wn7DBdaUNLA?t=30s
I agree that it seem a better solution to the one scenario you're mentioning: delivering packages.
But if you watch the video in the article [1], they describe other scenarios: "maybe let in your dog walker, a friend, or maybe to let in a team of cleaning ninjas"
I don't think it's too far-fetched to see the 'friend' here being actually your airbnb guest. Many airbnb homes already use a rudimentary lockbox with code, if the guest can now instead set up something on their amazon account and know they'll be able to get in (at least the initial check-in, and have a key waiting on the coffee table), it could make the experience smoother for the guests, and the host as well.
[1] https://youtu.be/wn7DBdaUNLA?t=30s
I could see HOAs having a problem with porch cubbies.
Also how do you include the code? Address line 2? 3? Memo? I don't always see these.
Also how do you include the code? Address line 2? 3? Memo? I don't always see these.
Fuck HOAs, I guess.
I think it's just address line 2. There's a note on the porch telling them to look for the code. It doesn't always work, but it doesn't really need to. At least not where they live.
I think it's just address line 2. There's a note on the porch telling them to look for the code. It doesn't always work, but it doesn't really need to. At least not where they live.
> Also how do you include the code? Address line 2? 3? Memo? I don't always see these.
Technically as far as USPS is concerned, there are only 3 lines in an address: name, address, and city/state/zip. Address line 2/3 are non-standard and are disregarded, and you may put whatever delivery instructions in there you want.
If you have an address like "Room 321" that should go as part of Address Line 1.
However, mail is delivered by human beings and generally speaking you can get a surprising amount of mail delivered with non-standard addresses. It used to be quite common to give addresses in the form of "Red House on Easy Street at the top of the hill" and this will still usually make it through. See: "Falsehood: An address will be comprised of road names".
https://www.mjt.me.uk/posts/falsehoods-programmers-believe-a...
Previous HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8907301
Technically as far as USPS is concerned, there are only 3 lines in an address: name, address, and city/state/zip. Address line 2/3 are non-standard and are disregarded, and you may put whatever delivery instructions in there you want.
If you have an address like "Room 321" that should go as part of Address Line 1.
However, mail is delivered by human beings and generally speaking you can get a surprising amount of mail delivered with non-standard addresses. It used to be quite common to give addresses in the form of "Red House on Easy Street at the top of the hill" and this will still usually make it through. See: "Falsehood: An address will be comprised of road names".
https://www.mjt.me.uk/posts/falsehoods-programmers-believe-a...
Previous HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8907301
Address line 2/3 are non-standard
Good question. There's only so much room on 4x6 labels. Also I haven't seen a shipping solution that automatically prints customer notes on label. As for address lines, UPS has a finite amount of characters per line before they drop off.
I use a mail service the requires 1 or 2 lines more than a normal address. It's a huge pain filling out shipping address forms online to include the extra info. A lot of it ends up in the Name field. Truncation is also a problem when the label printers truncate more than the form validation.
All of my future projects will have 5 line shipping address forms.
All of my future projects will have 5 line shipping address forms.
Slightly off topic, but reminded me of an issue I had with Amazon for months. I work for a small agency, the name of which begins with "Box" and then a number. No matter where I put it in the delivery address, Amazon (or the delivery service) would change the business name to "PO Box ..."
I ended up working around it by removing all spaces from the business name in my shipping address.
I ended up working around it by removing all spaces from the business name in my shipping address.
Ha, must have been a pain for companies that require a real, physical address for whatever. I have most certainly interacted with APIs that had that requirement, and their regexes for refusing PO Boxes were generous, to put it lightly.
There's almost always a "special delivery instructions" field.
Ideally, the cubbie would work like a PostOffice drop box and have a way to insert packages at will with out a code and then the owner has a key to unlock the cubbie.
Perhaps something like a old-fashioned padlock? Anyone can click it shut and then you need the key to unlock it again.
Yeah, that's the traditional package box. This is an example: http://www.pe.com/wp-content/uploads/migration/oh4/oh4e3m-b8...
The issue with that is people know if there's a package in there or not, you can't have more than one delivery service come in a single day, and you run the risk of vandals running off with your lock.
The issue with that is people know if there's a package in there or not, you can't have more than one delivery service come in a single day, and you run the risk of vandals running off with your lock.
Someone is leaving dog shit on your neighbor's lawn. It's not you, you pick up after your dog, but your neighbor is convinced it's you.
Late one night, your neighbor saunters up to your drop box and empties a bag full of dog shit into it.
Late one night, your neighbor saunters up to your drop box and empties a bag full of dog shit into it.
You seem to have great neighbors. Maybe ... talk with them?
[deleted]
They include the combination to unlock it in the delivery address
In fact, most will contort my address to something the USPS will bounce back to the shipper if the P.O. takes its rules to the letter ("#123" gets changed to "UNIT 123", which the USPS considers invalid).
My apartment complex had the same thing, except the box held a key to the front door. But then some junkies literally chiseled out the box from the masonry. Now I think they just gave UPS a key and they give it to whoever does the deliveries. There are so many better low-tech solutions that aren't complete security and liability nightmares.
We'll have to see how this plays out in terms of whether FedEx, USPS, the multitude of delivery startups out there get "locked out" of the system and are at the mercy of the user needing to be around to receive packages, while Amazon provides their secure in-home deliveries.
I wonder if that would be sufficient grounds for an antitrust suit if it happens.
I wonder if that would be sufficient grounds for an antitrust suit if it happens.
Doubtful, the other players wouldn't be in any different scenario than they were before Amazon tried this.
> I find the "include the code in the address" solution pretty elegant, though. This seems to me like a better solution for their suburban single-family house.
...in fact, it's so much a better solution that I can't imagine Amazon hadn't considered it
Not following, Amazon has an option for "include key code" in their orders
Not following, Amazon has an option for "include key code" in their orders
But no option to instruct the delivery person to use that for anything other than access to a gate or building common area. He's taking the concept one step further to using the code for the delivery person to open one's main/front door.
having a code for a box outside vs the ability to access your house is the idea..
Amazon could use this idea to generate a unique code in your address every time you order a delivery, thus removing the requirement that couriers use a special app. The code would expire after a single use, after the package is signaled to have been delivered, or after x days -- whichever comes first.
Even better would be just a large post box, locked door on the back / side, large chute opening on the front.
Or a night safe style sliding opening in to a large metal box or in to the house through a wall.
This way the delivery person doesn't need to know a pin etc.
Or a night safe style sliding opening in to a large metal box or in to the house through a wall.
This way the delivery person doesn't need to know a pin etc.
> All this raises a big question, however: will Prime customers trust Amazon to monitor their homes around the clock, and to know when it’s okay to unlock their doors for a stranger? And will the benefit of having your packages delivered quickly and securely outweigh any concerns about privacy and security customers might have?
Probably, but I wouldn't. The idea of giving a company full access to your locks is a bit wtf in my books.
Probably, but I wouldn't. The idea of giving a company full access to your locks is a bit wtf in my books.
> Probably, but I wouldn't. The idea of giving a company full access to your locks is a bit wtf in my books.
What if Amazon accept full liability for use of the lock though their system?
What if Amazon accept full liability for use of the lock though their system?
That's not a "bit wtf", that's a massively huge WTF?!
Most things in life are a tradeoff. At various times, most people give access to their house to various service people. Arguably, random delivery people is a bit different but, on the other hand, their access is presumably logged.
And, at the same time, package delivery is a PITA for many. For me, it's simple. They leave packages by the door and I've never had an issue but that's not true everywhere. I agree that some sort of lock box outside is probably preferable most of the time but this option doesn't seem out of the bounds of common sense.
And, at the same time, package delivery is a PITA for many. For me, it's simple. They leave packages by the door and I've never had an issue but that's not true everywhere. I agree that some sort of lock box outside is probably preferable most of the time but this option doesn't seem out of the bounds of common sense.
If this kind of service becomes common I could see homes being built with or retrofitted with "airlocks" so that you can give delivery services access to a secure area to deliver packages without gaining access to the whole home.
I wonder if you could outfit the smart lock on a shed or secure package box and let them deliver to that?
I wonder if you could outfit the smart lock on a shed or secure package box and let them deliver to that?
You mean a porch with a porch door? No need for a fancy name like "airlock" ;)
We call that sort of thing a catlock.
Indeed, we've been planning to screen in our front porch for a while just so we have some security when opening the front door while the cats are on that side of the house.
It would also provide some security by obscurity for any packages we get; according to UPS, right now I've got three packages totaling about $500 of equipment sitting on my front porch in plain view to anyone going past the house. Thankfully the house sits nearly half an acre off the main road, with no sidewalk and in a semi-rural area. Still, Murphy's law dictates that today will be the first time I have a package stolen. I'll find out when I get home in a few hours, I guess.
(My regular UPS guy normally doesn't deliver to me until after 6pm, he knows my schedule and it lines up well with his driving route most of the time. I'm guessing this is a new driver, or else a really light day for my regular guy.)
It would also provide some security by obscurity for any packages we get; according to UPS, right now I've got three packages totaling about $500 of equipment sitting on my front porch in plain view to anyone going past the house. Thankfully the house sits nearly half an acre off the main road, with no sidewalk and in a semi-rural area. Still, Murphy's law dictates that today will be the first time I have a package stolen. I'll find out when I get home in a few hours, I guess.
(My regular UPS guy normally doesn't deliver to me until after 6pm, he knows my schedule and it lines up well with his driving route most of the time. I'm guessing this is a new driver, or else a really light day for my regular guy.)
How does a porch look on an apartment (building), then?
Lots of options.
My apartment and several in the area, have a concierge, and they’ll act as a “porch” and even deliver it to your door later in the day
Some apartments have mail rooms, some with automated entry based on if you have a package or not
It’s largely a solved problem
My apartment and several in the area, have a concierge, and they’ll act as a “porch” and even deliver it to your door later in the day
Some apartments have mail rooms, some with automated entry based on if you have a package or not
It’s largely a solved problem
Not on manhattan. There are a lot of issues in older building complexes as they werent build for the amount of deliveries we see today.
Lots of apartments already have airlocks.
A standard little lobby where people leave their shoes and whatnot, except normally the inner door doesn't have its own lock.
That was the main thing I was thinking of. Even on homes that currently have this, or a mudroom, normally the inner door is not secured or strong in anyway.
I also think having a general unlocked mail or package slot is problematic these days, as bad actors could use that to insert all kinds of nefarious and damaging items into your home.
I also think having a general unlocked mail or package slot is problematic these days, as bad actors could use that to insert all kinds of nefarious and damaging items into your home.
For apartments, amazon has a different approach. https://thehub.amazon.com/home
Very similar to an airlock
[deleted]
Sounds like a job for Milk Chute!
http://www.eureka4you.com/home/MilkChute.htm
http://www.eureka4you.com/home/MilkChute.htm
I would not give Amazon access to my home, but I would purchase the equivalent of a small Amazon locker to be bolted to the concrete walkway on the side of my house.
EDIT: @vidarh: I was unaware. Thank you! Going to look for one that is weatherproof and I can paint Amazon Locker yellow.
EDIT: @vidarh: I was unaware. Thank you! Going to look for one that is weatherproof and I can paint Amazon Locker yellow.
You can already get that. Search for "delivery box" etc. and you'll find large steel boxes, at least some of which have locking mechanisms that lets the delivery person pull it shut to lock after putting a parcel in,.
Sort of like library drop boxes.
[deleted]
Maybe for people who don’t get large packages we can make a smaller version of this.
It’ll even be a convenient place to put letters and other small deliveries.
I guess since most mailmen are men and they will use it the most often, we can call it a malebox.
It’ll even be a convenient place to put letters and other small deliveries.
I guess since most mailmen are men and they will use it the most often, we can call it a malebox.
Like a mud room or an enclosed porch? Lots of houses already have such places.
I'd be super happy giving them access as it would simplify my life greatly. I'm happy they offer this service.
Now if only they could pick up and return my laundry too (like some other companies offer)
Or deliver fresh food (like Ocado)
Now if only they could pick up and return my laundry too (like some other companies offer)
Or deliver fresh food (like Ocado)
> Or deliver fresh food...
Since they have a key, maybe they could go ahead and get started cooking it for us too.
Since they have a key, maybe they could go ahead and get started cooking it for us too.
[deleted]
Question for those more familiar with 4th amendment jurisprudence than I am: if you give a group of strangers access to your home, does that remove your expectation of privacy in that area? If so, does that make evidence against you gathered through warrantless searches of that area admissable in court? Or would it only expose you to evidence in plain view/hear/smell?
My intuition is that granting consent for some action to one group of strangers does not grant consent to a different group of strangers, but I am not a lawyer.
My intuition is that granting consent for some action to one group of strangers does not grant consent to a different group of strangers, but I am not a lawyer.
You only consent to allow delivery people into your home, not the police. The 4th amendment doesn't have a trickery loophole, your reasonable expectation of privacy is always with respect to the police, not to other businesses and people you give trust to. The police can't set up a fake carwash and then warrantlessly search all of the cars that show up just because you're handing over the keys and consenting to let strangers in. Your home would be no different.
Another, perhaps better example: a landlord typically has a set of keys and the right to access a tenant's apartment. In a commercial building, those keys could be held by any number of "strangers" on the maintenance staff. The police still need a warrant, they can't just ask the landlord for a set of keys. That's really not any different from having the "keys" held by Amazon staff members.
There are lots of instances where a person's expectation of privacy is low with respect to specific people/businesses but high with respect to the government, and that doesn't weaken their 4th amendment protections.
Another, perhaps better example: a landlord typically has a set of keys and the right to access a tenant's apartment. In a commercial building, those keys could be held by any number of "strangers" on the maintenance staff. The police still need a warrant, they can't just ask the landlord for a set of keys. That's really not any different from having the "keys" held by Amazon staff members.
There are lots of instances where a person's expectation of privacy is low with respect to specific people/businesses but high with respect to the government, and that doesn't weaken their 4th amendment protections.
This is correct. Also a good overall note here is that the Constitution only applies between the government and the people. Private entities (businesses, for example) are not beholden to respect your rights.
A point to bring up with regards to landlords is that both State law and contract law (your lease) enable them to enter the dwelling under very special circumstances, usually such as an immediate threat to life. They may also enter to do various tasks such as inspections but laws usually mandate notice that must be given and how. Here in Texas, it's a minimum of 24 hours written notice for the latter.
A point to bring up with regards to landlords is that both State law and contract law (your lease) enable them to enter the dwelling under very special circumstances, usually such as an immediate threat to life. They may also enter to do various tasks such as inspections but laws usually mandate notice that must be given and how. Here in Texas, it's a minimum of 24 hours written notice for the latter.
For all those reading this, remember that you should never rely on Internet forums for legal advice, the poster above may or may not be a lawyer, but is certainly not your lawyer.
"The choice of a lawyer is an important decision and should not be based solely upon advertisements."
And there are multiple inaccuracies in all of these replies.
No bamboozle?
> You only consent to allow delivery people into your home, not the police.
However, IIRC, if the delivery people (or landlord, in your second example) choose to report to law enforcement anything criminal that they see in your home _of their own free will_ and without any prior arrangement with police, that evidence would be admissible and could be used to obtain a warrant.
It's not that much different from past cases where Best Buy technicians found illegal material on computers brought in to them for servicing and reported it to police and resulted in successful prosecutions.
However, IIRC, if the delivery people (or landlord, in your second example) choose to report to law enforcement anything criminal that they see in your home _of their own free will_ and without any prior arrangement with police, that evidence would be admissible and could be used to obtain a warrant.
It's not that much different from past cases where Best Buy technicians found illegal material on computers brought in to them for servicing and reported it to police and resulted in successful prosecutions.
>It's not that much different from past cases where Best Buy technicians found illegal material on computers brought in to them for servicing and reported it to police and resulted in successful prosecutions.
Those technicians were hired and trained by the FBI to seek out this information. There are ongoing lawsuits claiming this was illegal.
Those technicians were hired and trained by the FBI to seek out this information. There are ongoing lawsuits claiming this was illegal.
> Those technicians were hired and trained by the FBI to seek out this information.
Do you think the government is going to pass up the opportunity to do the same with Amazon employees?
That is, assuming Amazon hasn't already approached the government to offer it as a service.
Do you think the government is going to pass up the opportunity to do the same with Amazon employees?
That is, assuming Amazon hasn't already approached the government to offer it as a service.
[deleted]
No, I don't think it would.
There are plenty of people that grant access to their homes to service providers like cleaning services, dog walkers, etc...
Legally, I don't think there's much new here.
There are plenty of people that grant access to their homes to service providers like cleaning services, dog walkers, etc...
Legally, I don't think there's much new here.
I think Minnesota Vs Carter settles this question. The court held that since they were not overnight guests, they were not entitled to Fourth Amendment protection, and that the officer’s observation was not a search under the Amendment.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/97-1147
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/97-1147
I tried to find what precedent the case mentioned in https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/11/fbi_agents_po... ended up with, but haven't so far. Would be pretty interested, since it's directly on point here.
The part that confuses most people is the third party doctrine, but that's about your property which you keep in somebody else's space.
How much do you know about the company that manufactured your door lock? In some parts of the world, electronic locks (eg. from Samsung) are quite common.
Maybe I'm seeing it wrong -- but "giving a company full access" isn't exactly right. Its more, you have "the ability to control who has access to your locks and Amazon is probably your biggest user".
Some other anecdotes:
When my townhome was broken into, I learned that windows are way less secure than smart locks. If someone wants in your home, they're going to get in.
When my house caught on fire, I would have loved to have been able to let the first-responder in remotely as we were an hour away, the fire company was 20 mins, and seconds count.
Some other anecdotes:
When my townhome was broken into, I learned that windows are way less secure than smart locks. If someone wants in your home, they're going to get in.
When my house caught on fire, I would have loved to have been able to let the first-responder in remotely as we were an hour away, the fire company was 20 mins, and seconds count.
Windows are made of glass, and most deadbolts are installed into little more than a 1/4 - 1/2” of wood. In some places, they’re held by little more than mounding. Both are absolutely trivial to knock open, with the quality of the lock itself being far less important to the overall picture. Securing a door goes like this:
1) good deadbolt mounted into thick wood with a big strike plate and a sheet of sheet metal attached to the entire length of the stud with 3” screws, so you can’t just kick in the door. They sell kits like this oh amazon for usually sub100$.
2) good deadbolt.
3) steel door, because a 15lb mallet will knock through pretty much anything else and, if you have a door not visible to neighbors (like a backyard doors) no one will even notice.
4) an alarm system, because if no one is coming, steps 1-3 are irrelevant. Time defeats all security measures.
5) thorny bushes under all windows, motion-sensing lights on the entire perimeter. This keeps no one out, but if your house looks like a pain in the ass to get into, someone else’s will get hit. Outrun your neighbor, not the lion.
6) and if you’ve got the cash to spend, hurricane-proof glass and window stops will make it very unlikely anyone is getting in through a window either.
7) and that’s all still just to make you less attractive than a neighbor, ‘cause if I can get into your yard, cutting away some siding with metal snips and knocking a hole in your sheetrock is trivial. Walls are more psychological than structural in most modern home construction.
1) good deadbolt mounted into thick wood with a big strike plate and a sheet of sheet metal attached to the entire length of the stud with 3” screws, so you can’t just kick in the door. They sell kits like this oh amazon for usually sub100$.
2) good deadbolt.
3) steel door, because a 15lb mallet will knock through pretty much anything else and, if you have a door not visible to neighbors (like a backyard doors) no one will even notice.
4) an alarm system, because if no one is coming, steps 1-3 are irrelevant. Time defeats all security measures.
5) thorny bushes under all windows, motion-sensing lights on the entire perimeter. This keeps no one out, but if your house looks like a pain in the ass to get into, someone else’s will get hit. Outrun your neighbor, not the lion.
6) and if you’ve got the cash to spend, hurricane-proof glass and window stops will make it very unlikely anyone is getting in through a window either.
7) and that’s all still just to make you less attractive than a neighbor, ‘cause if I can get into your yard, cutting away some siding with metal snips and knocking a hole in your sheetrock is trivial. Walls are more psychological than structural in most modern home construction.
I remember a story from years ago in the news where a family (I believe the father may have been a jeweler) had their house burglarized. They had a house fairly far away from their neighbors, and the suspect literally brought a circular saw and cut a hole in the side of the house.
Hah. That’s a good example.
Even that’s overkill. Even if someone sheathed their exterior walls in plywood, structural sheathing runs 5/16 - 1/2”, and seams are between studs. It’s for resisting shear stresses on the house and/or insulation. In terms of orthogonal force, it’s a far cry from requiring a saw to get in.
Even that’s overkill. Even if someone sheathed their exterior walls in plywood, structural sheathing runs 5/16 - 1/2”, and seams are between studs. It’s for resisting shear stresses on the house and/or insulation. In terms of orthogonal force, it’s a far cry from requiring a saw to get in.
A talk on Doors from the perspective of a physical penetration hacker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YYvBLAF4T8
That was really interesting, thank you for sharing!
I found it thanks to another by the same guy, on elevator hacking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHf1vD5_b5I
Awesome.
It’s definitely a different perspective. He’s oriented to getting past security; normal thieves are risk-minimizing opportunists, so the approach isn’t “how do I get past security”, it’s “how do I get past the minimum security I can expect, and identify those targets that will have that minimum.”
Still, super interesting.
It’s definitely a different perspective. He’s oriented to getting past security; normal thieves are risk-minimizing opportunists, so the approach isn’t “how do I get past security”, it’s “how do I get past the minimum security I can expect, and identify those targets that will have that minimum.”
Still, super interesting.
Yeah, targeted attacks like those are different from drive-bys - both in the physical world and in the digital.
On the other hand, targeted attacks are not just for industrial espionage; for example, a friend of mine caught his landlady stealing from him. Family members and friends are also not that uncommon either, unfortunately.
On the other hand, targeted attacks are not just for industrial espionage; for example, a friend of mine caught his landlady stealing from him. Family members and friends are also not that uncommon either, unfortunately.
Where'd you learn this stuff? As someone who recently ended up a family man, I'm definitely interested in keeping my place more secure.
Way way back when, before I had a professional degree and respectability, I grew up in the sort of neighborhood where this information is... something approximating common knowledge. My father grew up in a similar environment and passed along a lot of wisdom on the topic as well. I parlayed it into some security work in undergrad, where I got to see the way small businesses address these issues.
I’ve never seen it written up anywhere, though I’m sure someone has to have spilled beans on this topic at some point.
If you have specific security concerns relevant to your personal situation (eg, I live In an apartment with a balcony...) feel free to leave an email address or some other contact info and I’ll happily give you some quick tips. Most residences, unless you’re a high value target, need very similar security.
I’ve never seen it written up anywhere, though I’m sure someone has to have spilled beans on this topic at some point.
If you have specific security concerns relevant to your personal situation (eg, I live In an apartment with a balcony...) feel free to leave an email address or some other contact info and I’ll happily give you some quick tips. Most residences, unless you’re a high value target, need very similar security.
Per #7 - I have concrete slump-block construction for my walls.
If they're going to get in that way, they're gunna work for it.
/at that point it would be easier for them to go thru the doors or windows (not even sure where you'd get hurricane glass in Arizona).
If they're going to get in that way, they're gunna work for it.
/at that point it would be easier for them to go thru the doors or windows (not even sure where you'd get hurricane glass in Arizona).
Firefighters basically never have difficulties entering single family homes...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halligan_bar
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halligan_bar
Then all the delivery service needs is one of these Halligan bars to ensure your rolls of toilet paper and Hawaiian themed mouse pad are safely delivered inside your home.
I'm going to buy one of these for my fire company. It took them (I'm told, I still wasn't there) 5 mins to get through my old 1960s solid wood door.
I just looked around - full-sized versions are pretty expensive; a 30" version I found from one supplier was around $300.00.
Though I did find a 16" version for $80.00 - I'm thinking a tool like this might come in handy for off-roading use.
Though I did find a 16" version for $80.00 - I'm thinking a tool like this might come in handy for off-roading use.
worth every penny, those guys (in my town, volunteers) are heroes.
Here's another frightening thought: What happens when Amazon is coerced by the FBI and secret courts to authorize entry.
Amazon wouldn't have a possessory interest in your apartment, so they couldn't consent to a search.
Amazon could certainly be coerced into unlocking the door, but the FBI could also just use their boots to coerce the door into unlocking on its own.
Amazon could certainly be coerced into unlocking the door, but the FBI could also just use their boots to coerce the door into unlocking on its own.
> Amazon could certainly be coerced into unlocking the door
This is an extremely worrisome statement. Is there any precedent for this type of coercion from the FBI to businesses who have access to a home? My justice-sense is tingling to think that the FBI could get into my home by coercing any party that I give access (hypothetical maids, pool guy, cat sitter, etc)
This is an extremely worrisome statement. Is there any precedent for this type of coercion from the FBI to businesses who have access to a home? My justice-sense is tingling to think that the FBI could get into my home by coercing any party that I give access (hypothetical maids, pool guy, cat sitter, etc)
What kind of doors and locks do you have? Chances are it's less of a bother to pick your locks than having to get a court order to coerce Amazon.
Why bother coercing when they can impersonate the party that was given permission?
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/11/fbi_agents_po...
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/11/fbi_agents_po...
Yeah, people on here are talking like their front door is Fort Knox. For most it is not, and as mentioned in other comments, a window is much easier to get through.
The primary risk is in thieves entering your home without leaving any traces.
Breaking through a door or windows requires a certain amount of risk and commitment. If a malicious hacker gets remote access to a smart lock the risk is effectively zero.
Breaking through a door or windows requires a certain amount of risk and commitment. If a malicious hacker gets remote access to a smart lock the risk is effectively zero.
> "If a malicious hacker gets remote access to a smart lock the risk is effectively zero."
Especially if said malicious actor can also control the camera that is meant to record anyone entering the home.
Especially if said malicious actor can also control the camera that is meant to record anyone entering the home.
Yeah, reading up on it it seems like I need reactive/explosive armour on my door to keep people out.
Probably the same ones with the giant glass sidelights, too.
Extra points for no curtains/blinds.
Extra points for no curtains/blinds.
It takes all of 20 seconds for a locksmith to bump your lock open.
If there are "secret courts" and the FBI really wants to get into your house, they don't need Alexa. A battering ram works just fine.
Scare quotes are unwarranted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intellig...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intellig...
The cam verifies the delivery person won't come further than a step in, not much to snoop there. Anything further would be easier and less noticed with a locksmith.
Wouldn't they still need a warrant?
And would amazon want the cost of the background checks - I know this is done for some medical deliveries Baxter Health Care does this for home dialysis deliveries (over a 1/3 of a ton a month) but that's a small number of vetted drivers,
What if they simply time the entry?
E.g. a courier taps to unlock the door, within 30 seconds, they must tap to lock the door or the local police will be called.
E.g. a courier taps to unlock the door, within 30 seconds, they must tap to lock the door or the local police will be called.
There's an approximately zero percent chance the police would be involved in that.
Many police forces charge each time they respond to a false alarm, and the cost generally goes up each time it happens. On top of that, an automated alarm signal (with no human confirmation) is pretty much considered the lowest priority call, and they may not even attend at all.
This is why most businesses have a private security company to respond to their alarms. They're generally significantly faster (and often have a guaranteed response time), and if a security guard shows up, sees a crime in progress and calls police, it's actually a very high priority call and will get immediate police response.
Many police forces charge each time they respond to a false alarm, and the cost generally goes up each time it happens. On top of that, an automated alarm signal (with no human confirmation) is pretty much considered the lowest priority call, and they may not even attend at all.
This is why most businesses have a private security company to respond to their alarms. They're generally significantly faster (and often have a guaranteed response time), and if a security guard shows up, sees a crime in progress and calls police, it's actually a very high priority call and will get immediate police response.
It's standard practice for cleaning/home-maid services and a number of food delivery services (e.g. Abel and Cole) already do this. It's just a matter of trust and reliability.
I actually like this idea for cleaning services and such. Now you don't have to arrange giving them a key and trying to track down that key when you're done with their services. Tracking down that key is the worst. They have no incentive to give it back.
I'd like to see how Amazon manages the access. Can access be revoked manually? Can you generate your own access permissions to give to a friend? Is this access code a one-time code?
I'd like to see how Amazon manages the access. Can access be revoked manually? Can you generate your own access permissions to give to a friend? Is this access code a one-time code?
There are tons of keypad locks out there already that let you give people temporary codes and then delete them. I don't use that feature a lot but I can see it being very handy if you have a lot of service people who need access to your house.
There are mechanical solutions for revoking access (although it can only be done once in this particular case): https://youtu.be/cKDBoE-kYFk
Especially since Amazon Logistics uses a gig-economy workforce. There's literally no telling who you'd be giving access to your home. Could be a burglar with a stolen identity who signed up for a 2-hour shift.
If someone really wants access to your home can't they just pick the lock or forcibly enter through other means? It doesn't seem very hard to access most homes.
They can, but the risk of being caught by neighbors and passers-by increases with forced entry. Show up in a delivery outfit, with a code that lets you in the house, and you look legit even to the police.
Does that mean you'd leave your doors unlocked?
If I had a house set up with a single room (foyer, mud room, etc.) with an external door openable with this, and an interior door openable only by me, I'd love to have the ability for Amazon to drop packages there. Keep the room on video, make sure the front door has logging, and it'd be pretty reasonable overall.
The best use-case for me is a smart lock on a garage or outhouse, and a door-bell with remote access (such as Ring [1])
Driver rings the bell as they would usually, you remotely open the garage and ask them to drop the package there, and then remotely close it and lock it.
[1] https://ring.com
Driver rings the bell as they would usually, you remotely open the garage and ask them to drop the package there, and then remotely close it and lock it.
[1] https://ring.com
That's a solid idea. Will be interesting to see if things like this change how new homes are designed.
For a second I thought you were commenting under /u/jurassic and envisioned an uber-altruistic future where homes are built to include an entryway for the homeless to escape winter cold.
I find it amusing that you use "Uber" and "Altruistic" in the same sentence.
I find it amusing that you consider that an "uber-altruistic" future would mean having homeless people sleep on the floor of a small empty entryway. I think there's probably a better and more efficient way to solve that problem.
I wasn't meaning that the open entryways were a solution for homelessness, only that a society which was accepting of a design element incorporated into their homes which was intentionally for utilization by and to the benefit of a stranger could reasonably be described as 'uber-altruistic'.
My college dorm had an airlock setup that was something like this, with an inner and outer door that both lock separately. A couple times we woke up to find a homeless person had caught the outer door as somebody was coming or going and taken up residence to escape the winter cold.
Give Amazon a key to my home? Hmm. They want to listen to me inside my home, watch me with a camera, and also be able to unlock my front door?
"It's safe, you can trust us! We'll never spy on you!" -- Jeff Bezos
"It's safe, you can trust us! We'll never spy on you!" -- Jeff Bezos
I am not too concerned with Amazon, I am more worried about law enforcement using this ability via warrant to gain easier access to a home, recordings, etc.
Pardon my ignorance, but how is Amazon watching customers with a camera?
The version of echo that hangs out in your room and tells you how good your outfit is. I wish I were joking:
https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/6/15924120/amazon-echo-look-...
https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/6/15924120/amazon-echo-look-...
If posters are not willing to read as far as the first sentence below the headline on the article's page, why should they be invited to discuss the article with those of us who have made the effort to read it?
Well, they could conceivably watch as you enter/exit your home, but if you have Alexa already then I would think they could infer from silence or lack-thereof whether the home is occupied.
Alexa doesn't open any connection to Amazon servers until you say the hotword 'Alexa'.
One could still infer from a lack of 'Alexa' hotword prompts over a span of time whether the home was occupied I reckon.
Or Bluetooth connections if you can use it as a speaker. Or the presence of other devices on the WIFI. There's a few ways you can passively detect human presence, I think.
That kinda logic doesn't work. Just because someone doesn't use Alexa for hours doesn't mean they aren't home. It happens every night.
I will elaborate further: inspect usage trends of Alexa to determine anomalies, i.e. times of no usage in the day when the owner isn't home.
They have a version of the Amazon Echo that has a camera for video calls. Its called the Amazon Echo Show.
...And what about people who use their garage door for main entry/exit?
All of those amazon echo products are watching you.
Welcome to the Fishbowl. You are live on channel 44,000, please do not swear.
Well, as usual, they have market in which people don't care. Convenience rules for them. On the other hand, when everything and everyone is tracked, there's no need to lock the home anymore.
Is delivering packages really that hard in the states?
Where I live almost every apartment has post boxes in the entrance area. Amazon drops the package in there and when I come home all I have to do is touch my key on the machine and it spits out my package. More advanced machines even send you emails when something got delivered.
Where I live almost every apartment has post boxes in the entrance area. Amazon drops the package in there and when I come home all I have to do is touch my key on the machine and it spits out my package. More advanced machines even send you emails when something got delivered.
What I think the most silly thing I keep seeing in America is packages being "delivered" (read: left) on your front porch or doorstep ... like, why? Someone now can just grab it!? If someone is not home, what happens here (Netherlands) that the package gets delivered by the neighbours and you get a little note it was delivered to the neighbours. Neighbours aren't home? Try the next one until the delivery guy gives up or doesn't care anymore and delivers it the next day.
Probably 90% of my packages are delivered while I'm at work. My neighbors work as well (as the least those I know--the handful of houses on either side of me).
I prefer to have a few packages a year go missing (which Amazon will always replace) than always end up having to pick things up from the post office.
My normal USPS delivery person is kind enough to deliver packages to my back door which helps. AMZL/UPS/FedEx aren't so accommodating though.
I prefer to have a few packages a year go missing (which Amazon will always replace) than always end up having to pick things up from the post office.
My normal USPS delivery person is kind enough to deliver packages to my back door which helps. AMZL/UPS/FedEx aren't so accommodating though.
You could try getting your packages delivered to work?
I'm sure that's been thought of. People who walk, take transit, or bike to work probably don't want the hassle of lugging a package home if it's anything larger than would fit in your backpack. Having stuff delivered to your home is a convenience. Hauling stuff home from work subtracts from that convenience.
If I walk around my neighborhood in the late afternoon I see little Amazon packages on everyone's porches. No one seems to be stealing them. I can see people who will want this Amazon Key thing, but I can see a lot of people for whom this addresses a non-existent problem.
I did this when I was in grad school and could just grab them from the mail room and the staff were friendly and knew most students couldn't easily get stuff delivered to their apartments. At my current small bay area company they get fussy when tons of personal packages are coming in. Luckily, I live in a good area and packages don't get stolen off my porch, also they are hard to see.
Depends where you live. I routinely get packages left at my front door without problems. I honestly have no idea of what "algorithm" the likes of UPS uses to determine if its OK to leave an unsecured package but I'm sure my rural location is well in the "it's OK" zone. Even if I'm at home, they usually just drop the package and head back to the truck.
As for neighbors, I have had things that required a signature left with a neighbor but it's very rare.
As for neighbors, I have had things that required a signature left with a neighbor but it's very rare.
As far as I can tell it is 100% up to the driver. Until a package does get stolen and then your address is quietly flagged to require a signature for everything for a while.
It's all over in the US, but why wouldn't I want it left on my porch? Shrinkage (stolen packages) is so small in most areas of the US the cost/inconvenience of having to track down your neighbor (and wait for him to be home now) or going to the office far outweighs the random package being stolen here and there. For scale, I get at least 5 packages delivered a week and over the past decade I've lived where I do I have had exactly 2 packages go missing. One was the driver, the other I cannot account for and was likely stolen.
It's simply not an issue.
That said, many areas it is an issue and you'll have to deal with going into the office to pick it up - which completely negates the entire purpose of delivery to me.
I really don't understand folks who think this is a major issue or that leaving it with the neighbors is okay. I figure those folks typically only use on-line shopping to buy high value items relatively rarely, and are okay with the inconvenience.
When you are getting 90%+ of your daily life delivered, it becomes untenable. Please just leave it at the door.
It's simply not an issue.
That said, many areas it is an issue and you'll have to deal with going into the office to pick it up - which completely negates the entire purpose of delivery to me.
I really don't understand folks who think this is a major issue or that leaving it with the neighbors is okay. I figure those folks typically only use on-line shopping to buy high value items relatively rarely, and are okay with the inconvenience.
When you are getting 90%+ of your daily life delivered, it becomes untenable. Please just leave it at the door.
Yeah, it heavily depends on one's context. Most of the stuff I order comes from at least 500km, so having to pick it up at the post office does certainly not negative the purpose of delivery for me :)
Is package theft from your porch or doorstep a big problem in the Netherlands? Our letters in the US just get left in the mailbox too. But we don't really have a problem with people stealing those either. It's just not that big of a deal in many neighborhoods.
The neighbors would be the most likely ones to steal the package. Giving it directly to them would save time, granted...
So to avoid somebody else taking my package, they just give somebody else my package?
All PostNL deliveries I got in Belgium went to shops instead. Which is better than Bpost, since I have to get those from the post office, which closes way too early.
> Where I live almost every apartment
Now picture a small century old house on a farm. There won't be any fancy boxes included.
Now picture a small century old house on a farm. There won't be any fancy boxes included.
None of the buildings by me have a locked package area.
Many people live in houses where anyone can walk up to your front door and steal what's in front of it. The delivery is not hard, it's what comes next that's the challenge.
I'm sure it exists in theory but I've never lived somewhere with a system more advanced than "fold the door mat over it". And no home owner I know has a giant treasure chest on the front porch but if they did they'd still need some way to allow delivery persons to unlock it.
Best defense to theft seems to be paying a lot of rent to live in a nice neighborhood. If it's an expensive package they'll usually require a signature which means I'll have it delivered to my workplace. I think Amazon probably doesn't want to rely on people having lots of money and accommodating employers.
Best defense to theft seems to be paying a lot of rent to live in a nice neighborhood. If it's an expensive package they'll usually require a signature which means I'll have it delivered to my workplace. I think Amazon probably doesn't want to rely on people having lots of money and accommodating employers.
>Where I live almost every apartment has post boxes in the entrance area.
Curious where do you live?
Apartments in downtown chicago have those but not outside downtown high rises .
Curious where do you live?
Apartments in downtown chicago have those but not outside downtown high rises .
[deleted]
> Is delivering packages really that hard in the states?
As soon as one asks any question about "the states" the answers vary as widely as the people and areas. Some people are in apartments others are in the middle of nowhere.
UPS is great, they come right to my door. Packages are left on the porch, but there isn't anyone around to steal them.
FedEx is OK. They come to my door, but sometimes they are too busy/lazy to drive up my road and leave a bogus reason in the tracking system. I called them on one and they lady assured that my winter road wsn't passable. Nevermind my wife drove the kids to and from school and the FedEx guy has a 4x4 truck. I just wish if they were too busy they'd just call it what it is.
My mailbox is about a mile from my house. If USPS can stuff it in my oversized box they will, otherwise I have drive to the post office and pick it up. I've thought of putting in a package locker to share with the other neighbors on the road. A magical package machine like you described would be great at the end of the road - but there isn't any power there.
As soon as one asks any question about "the states" the answers vary as widely as the people and areas. Some people are in apartments others are in the middle of nowhere.
UPS is great, they come right to my door. Packages are left on the porch, but there isn't anyone around to steal them.
FedEx is OK. They come to my door, but sometimes they are too busy/lazy to drive up my road and leave a bogus reason in the tracking system. I called them on one and they lady assured that my winter road wsn't passable. Nevermind my wife drove the kids to and from school and the FedEx guy has a 4x4 truck. I just wish if they were too busy they'd just call it what it is.
My mailbox is about a mile from my house. If USPS can stuff it in my oversized box they will, otherwise I have drive to the post office and pick it up. I've thought of putting in a package locker to share with the other neighbors on the road. A magical package machine like you described would be great at the end of the road - but there isn't any power there.
>The courier then gets a prompt on their app, swipes the screen, and voilà, your door unlocks. They drop off the package, relock the door with another swipe, and are on their way.
Yah, except when they forget to re-lock your door. No thanks. If anything the door should auto-lock after the door is initially opened, but I still would not allow a delivery person access to my home. I'm sure most delivery persons are fine but I have not heard good things about the "courier services" Amazon has been using lately.
Yah, except when they forget to re-lock your door. No thanks. If anything the door should auto-lock after the door is initially opened, but I still would not allow a delivery person access to my home. I'm sure most delivery persons are fine but I have not heard good things about the "courier services" Amazon has been using lately.
Considering that the delivery codes to our apartment building were used to gain access and steal stuff, I'm less than inclined to create something like this for my home.
It only seems to be solving the problem of people stealing packages left outside, which I would rather just get re-shipped rather than have to deal with things stolen in my home.
It only seems to be solving the problem of people stealing packages left outside, which I would rather just get re-shipped rather than have to deal with things stolen in my home.
> If anything the door should auto-lock after the door is initially opened
No. If anything, people will hopefully realize this is probably the worst possible idea for privacy and security they could possibly do in their homes and tell amazon to piss off.
No. If anything, people will hopefully realize this is probably the worst possible idea for privacy and security they could possibly do in their homes and tell amazon to piss off.
I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me, but I agree that this is a terrible idea from amazon.
I was disagreeing with your one comment that implied this would be OK if they auto-relocked, by arguing that none of this is OK at all. I generally agreed with the rest of your comment though
The fact they don't even auto-lock is just one of many things wrong with this idea; is what I was trying to say I suppose :)
Agreed. They have no quality control over their own deliveries. I live in a multi-tenant building and in my experience Amazon deliveries are hilariously unreliable. They have a hard time gaining access to my building and usually just leave packages outside where they are very often stolen.
The only way deliveries will work for Amazon without the use of drones is if they open up the delivery service like AWS so that other businesses can use it. The reason I believe that is that deliveries need to be reliable. In order for them to be reliable you need to have regular drivers, ie, full-time employees who drive the same routes everyday. But Amazon doesn't deliver nearly enough packages for that line of business to make any sense whatsoever, so the solution would be to let others ship via Amazon deliveries at a lower cost and faster rate than UPS, FedEx, or USPS and perhaps subsidize the losses from other lines of business or raise the price of Prime to offset it.
Ultimately, Amazon is trying to compete with USPS in this space, not FedEx or UPS who want no part of last-mile deliveries.
The only way deliveries will work for Amazon without the use of drones is if they open up the delivery service like AWS so that other businesses can use it. The reason I believe that is that deliveries need to be reliable. In order for them to be reliable you need to have regular drivers, ie, full-time employees who drive the same routes everyday. But Amazon doesn't deliver nearly enough packages for that line of business to make any sense whatsoever, so the solution would be to let others ship via Amazon deliveries at a lower cost and faster rate than UPS, FedEx, or USPS and perhaps subsidize the losses from other lines of business or raise the price of Prime to offset it.
Ultimately, Amazon is trying to compete with USPS in this space, not FedEx or UPS who want no part of last-mile deliveries.
If it's like other "smart" locks, it lets you know its state and can be locked remotely.
I have my amazon safe space set to my greenhouse, imagine my surprise when I found their delivery person had put my item in my green bin instead. Not a chance would let them have access to my locks to my house.
I once had an Amazon courier deliver to my bin! I don't think I set any safe space. I was expecting a redelivery. I only found the item by coincidence. I could easily have let it be collected and taken to the dump!
Let's think about this for a minute. (ignoring if the tech works)
1. For people without a security system, there are many simple ways to get into a house. If you are worried about people getting into your house, you might not want this, but you better also already have a nice security system (that is also not on a botnet).
2. At least for us, we generally recognize our UPS & USPS folk that deliver to our house.
3. This has a log and video of the drop off.
4. Who do you trust more? The people delivering your package or the random person driving around the neighborhood looking for packages that would imply you are not at home? (or just grabbing your package)
All that said, usually someone is at home when we get deliveries so I wouldn't buy it (also don't use Amazon much). But I don't see the reason for the backlash.
1. For people without a security system, there are many simple ways to get into a house. If you are worried about people getting into your house, you might not want this, but you better also already have a nice security system (that is also not on a botnet).
2. At least for us, we generally recognize our UPS & USPS folk that deliver to our house.
3. This has a log and video of the drop off.
4. Who do you trust more? The people delivering your package or the random person driving around the neighborhood looking for packages that would imply you are not at home? (or just grabbing your package)
All that said, usually someone is at home when we get deliveries so I wouldn't buy it (also don't use Amazon much). But I don't see the reason for the backlash.
2. At least for us, we generally recognize our UPS & USPS folk that deliver to our house.
I would not recognize the Amazon subcontractors that visit my house/office. They are optimizing for least cost.
I would not recognize the Amazon subcontractors that visit my house/office. They are optimizing for least cost.
Yeah, Amazon seems to use a mix of USPS, FedEx/UPS, and private couriers. And because I'm in a townhouse complex with remote mailboxes, I wouldn't recognize any of them.
Article specifically says this is restricted to Amazon Logistics delivery. No subcontractors.
I regularly get deliveries from Amazon Logistics. It’s always a random person in their own car, no uniform. Indistinguishable from an Uber or Postmates driver.
5. Amazon also contracts deliveries out (at least in Toronto). I've had guys in unmarked cars show up with packages.
I'm not worried about the normal, full-time delivery guy. I'm worried about the fill-in, all-the-regular-guys-were-sick guy. Someone who doesn't have a good job and reputation to lose.
You also have to think about it from the delivery person's perspective. They won't really know if someone is away from home or just lazy. They could be opening the door to an assault or any manner of sexual harassment.
I wonder if they'll get resistance from drivers after they really think about the situation they could find themselves in. There's some security in knowing where your attacker lives, but not much if we're talking apartments.
Finally, will Amazon let you participate if you're in an apartment complex that already has lockboxes? Wouldn't that kill the delivery efficiency?
You also have to think about it from the delivery person's perspective. They won't really know if someone is away from home or just lazy. They could be opening the door to an assault or any manner of sexual harassment.
I wonder if they'll get resistance from drivers after they really think about the situation they could find themselves in. There's some security in knowing where your attacker lives, but not much if we're talking apartments.
Finally, will Amazon let you participate if you're in an apartment complex that already has lockboxes? Wouldn't that kill the delivery efficiency?
In amazons bid to take over the last mile, they’ve done a measure to their reputation. They accept terrible drivers who have failed out of Uber and have been caught doing a number of things ranging from stealing to vandalizing to shitting in bushes and doing heroin on customers’ front porches. It’s hard to imagine how they could have gotten it any worse than some of their contractors like OnTrac, but they certainly did. And there’s no way in hell I would ever let an Amazon Flex driver in my front door.
Ok, so now I'm worried about the full-time driver almost as much as the fill in. I haven't followed any of the scandal on the subject since I don't think I'm in their delivery area -- I see a lot of UPS and USPS from Amazon.
I don't know that there has been a scandal, at least publicly. I'm speaking as a friend of someone who performs operations audits on Amazon Fresh and Prime Now facilities, who has ranted to me about how much they've had to deal with police reports and customer complaints about their terrible drivers. But needless to say I don't trust them. I won't even buzz them into my apartment building to drop off the package in the lobby if I'm not there to receive it directly.
Do you have sources for this? That's a pretty big accusation.
There are a few on my route that would embrace this. They are Amazon addicts. Over 550 parcel deliveries a year. Trust has been won by Amazon.
Wait, 550 to one house? That's... amazing. I had 43 this year and I thought I was a hopeless case.
I got a small route (all residential) and have delivered over 15,000 parcels ytd. Less than half is Amazon but Amazon is by far the most
Edit: if u are wondering.. Stay at home new mother (now "new" 2+ yrs ago) is absolute gold. Locked into ultimate convenience. 2-3 packages a day.
Wont trust Amazon Fresh. Tried once. Never again
Edit: if u are wondering.. Stay at home new mother (now "new" 2+ yrs ago) is absolute gold. Locked into ultimate convenience. 2-3 packages a day.
Wont trust Amazon Fresh. Tried once. Never again
I like Pantry, but I live in a small town where Fresh isn't available. Thanks for the warning though.
We get tons of Amazon boxes plus a 30 lbs bag of dog food every Wednesdays from Chewy.com.
I've always felt bad for our UPS driver. He's a nice guy, very carefull with the boxes and almost always wraps them in plastic if it's going to rain. What should we get him for Christmas?
I've always felt bad for our UPS driver. He's a nice guy, very carefull with the boxes and almost always wraps them in plastic if it's going to rain. What should we get him for Christmas?
A. Cash
B. Cash
C. Cash
No dunkin, please. No bottles of wine, please. No home made cookies, please. No gift cards, please.
Cash is best and greatly appreciated.
Look at it this way... If everyone gives cash it is a nice stash. (only 43% tip me and i bust my butt)
Having 10 $5-15 dunkin cards (the most i had one year was $135 Dunkin. And i don't even like dunkin!) cant buy your spouse a nice christmas gift
How much? My range is $5-$400. $35 is a sound number
No dunkin, please. No bottles of wine, please. No home made cookies, please. No gift cards, please.
Cash is best and greatly appreciated.
Look at it this way... If everyone gives cash it is a nice stash. (only 43% tip me and i bust my butt)
Having 10 $5-15 dunkin cards (the most i had one year was $135 Dunkin. And i don't even like dunkin!) cant buy your spouse a nice christmas gift
How much? My range is $5-$400. $35 is a sound number
I'm sorry, but I'm not sure if I understand.
You are complaining that _only_ 43% of the people you deliver to tip you?
Why does a delivery person get tips? We are already paying for delivery...
You are complaining that _only_ 43% of the people you deliver to tip you?
Why does a delivery person get tips? We are already paying for delivery...
I wouldn't even know how to go about tipping my delivery person(s). I started home delivery of a newspaper last fall and the service got pretty bad right after the holidays (the paper is now consistently halfway down the lawn rather than on the covered front porch, where it was ending up consistently before Dec 2016). I'd be happy to tip, but the billing and payment is all handled online, and this is a person I've literally never laid eyes on. Parcel delivery suffers from the same problem. I'm a heavy user of Amazon, but never present when UPS comes.
Here is what many do.
Week or 2 before Christmas tape a card/envelope to your door. One marked "UPS" and the other "USPS"
(my town USPS delivers most Amazon like dog food and UPS delivers heavier Amazon packages)
Week or 2 before Christmas tape a card/envelope to your door. One marked "UPS" and the other "USPS"
(my town USPS delivers most Amazon like dog food and UPS delivers heavier Amazon packages)
Sounds like a great way to "tip" people who are neither UPS or USPS.
Tips are optional.
Often, people who came up from the working class tip because they recall crappy pay, poor conditions etc when they started and appreciate my hard work with a tip. Others do not look at it that way and have your own thinking.
Im okay with either. I get it. Many of my patrons are unemployed due to retirement, living off interest and savings. They all tip. The young up-and-commers hardly tip. I think it's because the young had a different kind of life (ie easier) than the older retired generation.
Often, people who came up from the working class tip because they recall crappy pay, poor conditions etc when they started and appreciate my hard work with a tip. Others do not look at it that way and have your own thinking.
Im okay with either. I get it. Many of my patrons are unemployed due to retirement, living off interest and savings. They all tip. The young up-and-commers hardly tip. I think it's because the young had a different kind of life (ie easier) than the older retired generation.
I think it depends on if you got tips when you worked your crappy jobs. If you got tips, then you give tips.
If you worked minimum wage jobs that didn't get tips, then you get resentful of the entire tipping culture and only tip when socially necessary.
If you worked minimum wage jobs that didn't get tips, then you get resentful of the entire tipping culture and only tip when socially necessary.
Why does a waiter get tips? You're already paying for the service.
Thank you, exactly what I was looking for. Good thing I didn't get that Amazon gift card!
So how would this work if you have an alarm system? The door would unlock, they'd come in, but unless they're also given the alarm code then it would end up going off.
This seems like a pretty big stumbling block, because asking people to give out an alarm code means that anyone who ever delivers to your place can get into your house later (unless you change the delivery code every week or something, which would be an ongoing hassle).
This seems like a pretty big stumbling block, because asking people to give out an alarm code means that anyone who ever delivers to your place can get into your house later (unless you change the delivery code every week or something, which would be an ongoing hassle).
From my understanding a delivery person cannot get into your house at any time--you are not giving them any code to your door. They are scanning a barcode on your package via the camera, and that will be their "key". No package, no key. Good consideration about the alarm code, though even with it they couldn't get in unless they have a verified delivery.
Yeah, they're not allowed to get into your house at any time...but if they remember the code and then come back later they can disarm your alarm system after breaking in. Maybe you get an alert or a call from your alarm company, but if they can disable the loud ringing then they can make off with a bunch of stuff before anyone shows up (and without the neighbors thinking anything is awry, since they wouldn't hear anything abnormal).
edit: I'm curious to know whether the people downvoting this comment have an alarm system and are happy to give out their alarm code, or if they're people who do not have alarm system and just think that, at a glance, this seems paranoid. I have an alarm system and have never given out the code to anyone. We've thought about giving it to some people whom we trust, but after we thought about it decided against.
edit: I'm curious to know whether the people downvoting this comment have an alarm system and are happy to give out their alarm code, or if they're people who do not have alarm system and just think that, at a glance, this seems paranoid. I have an alarm system and have never given out the code to anyone. We've thought about giving it to some people whom we trust, but after we thought about it decided against.
For packages wouldn't selling a mailbox with this smart lock system make much more sense than full access to the entire house?
Nobody but the USPS is allowed to put anything in or remove anything from a mailbox.
If you're talking about a separate locker, not a bad idea but I'd assume that would be a lot more costly than replacing your lock and also would introduce all sorts of variability about size and where it would be placed.
If you're talking about a separate locker, not a bad idea but I'd assume that would be a lot more costly than replacing your lock and also would introduce all sorts of variability about size and where it would be placed.
Yes, I assumed Amazon Shed as a personal outside-the-home locker would have been next, but installing a key and camera does seem probably cheaper.
Yes, or a strong-box that interlocks with a closed exterior door. Amazon's no longer content to just metaphorically want access to our homes and lives, now they actually want in..
Like the dvd rental return boxes in movie rental stores.
DHL in Germany offers sth. like that: https://www.dhl.de/de/privatkunden/pakete-empfangen/pakete-z... - without the smarts.
Amazon has lockerboxes too.
Which you can put in front of your house? In Germany "Amazon Locker" just lets you deliver to post stations where you then can fetch it.
My bad. From the URL I thought it was about Packstation. That's what Amazon Lockers are.
But in the US there are apartments that have something like a "Packstation" for residents only.
But in the US there are apartments that have something like a "Packstation" for residents only.
I've called things a silly idea before and been wrong, so who knows.
That caveat in place, this might be a time to start from the bottom of the idea tree and try some of the more obvious limbs. If the problem this solves is absent deliveries, don't we just need bigger mailboxes or maybe even smart mailboxes?
Maybe they're thinking about this differently. Maybe it's about building trust, or just getting amazon smartstuff into homes for some other underpants plan. At face value, a cloud connected lock seems excessive.
That caveat in place, this might be a time to start from the bottom of the idea tree and try some of the more obvious limbs. If the problem this solves is absent deliveries, don't we just need bigger mailboxes or maybe even smart mailboxes?
Maybe they're thinking about this differently. Maybe it's about building trust, or just getting amazon smartstuff into homes for some other underpants plan. At face value, a cloud connected lock seems excessive.
Many people with standard on the street mailboxes would benefit from upsizing. I did after Amazon switched to using USPS for a lot of my deliveries. No more (OK--much less) packages crammed into the mailbox, hung off of it, etc. I have a long dirt driveway and the postal carrier somewhat understandably hates to go down it to drop things off at the house.
I had similar thoughts. Has Amazon posted any statistics on package theft when packages are left at the front door? I'm wondering if Amazon is acting of perceived fears to strengthen it's foothold in the home or trying to reduce losses by subsidizing a somewhat complex solution?
With one of my recent Amazon deliveries, a picture was taken of the package sitting in front of my mailbox. It was accessible through the Amazon app when I received the delivery notification. It's an apartment building, so it was nice to know where it was left since the location of packages delivered seems to vary based on which company delivers it.
My very first thought when I saw it was this was a solution to prove that a delivery took place in cases of package theft.
My very first thought when I saw it was this was a solution to prove that a delivery took place in cases of package theft.
Unlike a smart mailbox, this lets them plug your front door / the smartlock business line into Alexa. They get to do the same with video surveillance of the home, which they’ve been pushing with their fashion app and whatnot - so this means in the future they can possibly integrate these inward-facing cameras into services they’re already developing.
It seems like this is a play for pushing a smart home ecology around Alexa.
It seems like this is a play for pushing a smart home ecology around Alexa.
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I see one big issue with this...sure mr amazon man can open my door but... what he going to do about my 160lbs st bernard an rottweiler who don't understand he's the amazon man :P) my rottweiler is the most obedient dog i've ever had, but he is also a security guard master.. and i don't know how to convey to him since he already doesn't appreciate the mail person, that amazon person is ok.
I think the obvious answer is that this service is probably not a good fit for you?
I guess people like us - i have 2 Belgium Shepherd dogs, are not the target market. Probably for us Amazon will try to promote their “Amazon Locker”. I just noticed yesterday that they are now being installed at Whole Foods, which make sense.
Then you probably aren't the target for this service.
Your insurance is going to go through the roof.
Or you will get black listed as happens in the UK a serious problem dog will stop deliveries.
Delivery blacklists are irrelevant compared to costs of home owners/renters insurance.
I think a conviction for having a dangerous dog would be worse
USPS carrier bring biscuits with them for dogs.
Probably similar reasons.
Then again, if you have a "guard dog" I'd recommend not letting someone in your house willingly knowing their face will be ripped off.
Court fees, you know.
Probably similar reasons.
Then again, if you have a "guard dog" I'd recommend not letting someone in your house willingly knowing their face will be ripped off.
Court fees, you know.
It'll be interesting how this works at homes with pets. I could see that being a major concern for a household that would otherwise be fine with an in home delivery. Will Amazon have couriers that are diligent enough to ensure an escaped cat is returned?
How about the homeowner putting the pet in a closed room the day a delivery is expected? Why put this on the delivery man?
Amazon CloudKennel™ will lure your pet into the kennel before the courier arrives and keep it secure while the delivery takes place. Choose from an extensive range of pet-bait on Amazon Fresh and Amazon Video. Suitable for common domestic animals only. Monthly subscription and wifi connection required. Restrictions apply.
I'm not sure why this is being downvoted. The Amazon rules have an exception specifically for this case: if your pet can access the front door on delivery day. They've framed it slightly more positively and gently (I'd prefer, for my pet's sake, that they require the dog to be in a closed room), but that's exactly what it means.
I suppose some people might assume this means something silly like locking your cat in a broom closet of your one-room studio apartment, when many homes with dogs have a 'dog room' which is where the pet(s) stay when the owners are out of the house. Separating your pet from potential problems is a part of responsible pet ownership.
As the owner of a Newfoundland mix, I highly recommend it even without Amazon Key - not only does my dog appreciate having her own comfortable space in which she sleeps and to which she can retreat when there are too many people over, but it helps slightly contain the hopeless shedding and drool.
I suppose some people might assume this means something silly like locking your cat in a broom closet of your one-room studio apartment, when many homes with dogs have a 'dog room' which is where the pet(s) stay when the owners are out of the house. Separating your pet from potential problems is a part of responsible pet ownership.
As the owner of a Newfoundland mix, I highly recommend it even without Amazon Key - not only does my dog appreciate having her own comfortable space in which she sleeps and to which she can retreat when there are too many people over, but it helps slightly contain the hopeless shedding and drool.
I don't get it either. Lots of people keep dogs in kennels. And I've had cats and they won't necessarily object to being put into a bedroom for a day.
From the FAQ: https://www.amazon.com/b?&node=17285120011&tag=skim1x139863-...
Can I receive in-home delivery if I have a pet?
We do not recommend using in-home delivery if your pet can access the front door on delivery day.
Can I receive in-home delivery if I have a pet?
We do not recommend using in-home delivery if your pet can access the front door on delivery day.
It's also worrying for households that have animals that are not particularly friendly toward strangers. Would the delivery person be able to press charges should a home owners dog bite them?
Yes, you are responsible if your dog bites somebody. They might not press charges, but they would likely sue you (or Amazon's insurance company would directly or through a subrogation company).
You should probably talk to your own home insurance company as well. Owning certain breeds raise your premiums already (at least ours does), and enabling strangers into your insured property to now potentially interact with those breeds probably needs coverage.
Depending on where you live, a person breaking into your house could press charges if your dog bit them.
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> When a courier arrives with a package for in-home delivery, they scan the barcode, sending a request to Amazon’s cloud. If everything checks out, the cloud grants permission by sending a message back to the camera, which starts recording. The courier then gets a prompt on their app, swipes the screen, and voilà, your door unlocks. They drop off the package, relock the door with another swipe, and are on their way. The customer will get a notification that their delivery has arrived, along with a short video showing the drop-off to confirm everything was done properly.
So, you only need a valid smart card, a working Amazon courier app and a balaclava to gain an unencumbered access to any of these homes?
So, you only need a valid smart card, a working Amazon courier app and a balaclava to gain an unencumbered access to any of these homes?
Um, sure, or just break a window
Wouldn't that trigger the security alarm installed in the property?
Well, that, and presumably a package that is scheduled to be delivered to the home in question that has also not been marked as delivered. I'm just astonished that they believe a delivery person will bother-- I've never had a delivery (that wasn't booze) that didn't involve the driver being back in their truck by the time I got to the door after it rang. This sounds like it would add at least 10-30 seconds to a delivery, and I don't see a driver going for it.
It will be very interesting to see if this gets traction.
I would never ever give a company access to my home. But maybe the next generation will not have a sense of privacy at all. But rather accept that mankind kind of grows together into one huge brain.
From my perspective, I wonder: Are there not enough places where Amazon can drop off packages? In my street, all kinds of shops will accept parcels for you.
Are new houses these days built with "drop off" areas that can be opened with an access code?
I would never ever give a company access to my home. But maybe the next generation will not have a sense of privacy at all. But rather accept that mankind kind of grows together into one huge brain.
From my perspective, I wonder: Are there not enough places where Amazon can drop off packages? In my street, all kinds of shops will accept parcels for you.
Are new houses these days built with "drop off" areas that can be opened with an access code?
On the one hand, I can definitely understand all the "nope" in this thread.
On the other hand, I wonder why the camera is a required part of this system.
On the other hand, I wonder why the camera is a required part of this system.
Two reasons:
1. To avoid the Amazon driver getting the blame for things done by your kids/partner/dog/whatever.
2. To keep the drivers honest.
1. To avoid the Amazon driver getting the blame for things done by your kids/partner/dog/whatever.
2. To keep the drivers honest.
3. To keep the customers honest
So say I live in Germany and Amazon gets served a warrant in the US to facilitate in remotely unlocking my door. Amazon could theoretically unlock my front door from their HQ in the US.
What are the legal ramifications of this? We're not talking about access to data anymore, but potentially access to physical locations that would otherwise be outside of direct US jurisdiction.
What are the legal ramifications of this? We're not talking about access to data anymore, but potentially access to physical locations that would otherwise be outside of direct US jurisdiction.
I don't mean to sound rude, but doors are not exactly hard to get through. They are rather easy, chances are if they get a warrant it doesn't matter that Amazon can open your door, so can the police. And wasting time calling Amazon rather then just smashing your door down (or knocking) seems like a bit much.
Not rude but there’s a difference between forcing your way through a door and having a door unlocked for you (and via a legal means outside of the physical jurisdiction of the door).
It shouldn’t matter how ‘tough’ the door lock is either way. 4 digit ATM codes are easy to break too - we still expect them to provide a level of protection
It shouldn’t matter how ‘tough’ the door lock is either way. 4 digit ATM codes are easy to break too - we still expect them to provide a level of protection
I'm sorry, but I don't really feel comfortable letting Amazon into my home.
To be fair, I feel the same about UPS, FedEx, USPS, etc.
To be fair, I feel the same about UPS, FedEx, USPS, etc.
There's actually a super simple solution for your concerns - don't choose the "in-home delivery" option.
In addition to letting them into your home, its outward-facing camera lets them into your neighborhood, setting the stage for feature-creep, facial recognition, immigrant surveillance, automobile surveillance, subpoena'd police access, poorly-managed data, etc.
We tolerate this from a security company's cameras because that's their specific intention and the quality costs a monthly premium. From cutthroat retailers like Amazon, Walmart, etc., I have no expectation of ideal behavior.
We tolerate this from a security company's cameras because that's their specific intention and the quality costs a monthly premium. From cutthroat retailers like Amazon, Walmart, etc., I have no expectation of ideal behavior.
A vampire cannot just enter your home -- you have to invite him in!
I was confused that the article fails to mention that UPS, at least, expressly prohibits drivers from crossing the threshold unless you’re taking a package from them with outstretched arms. They can’t even “set it down inside”, kindness or not - doing so is a violation. Or used to be when it last came up for me, anyways.
I'm going to watch the thread over time, but given other threads I've read on HN, I would have expected far, far, more privacy maximalists. Compare this against one of the popular "love to hate" subjects like telemetry gathering or surveillance. (Yes, I get how some people see them as the same thing.)
How do we abbreviate this? Door unlocking as a service, DUaaS?
Seriously though, this leads to so many questions.
- Why would anyone give a COMPANY access to their house? And why are people ok with random strangers roaming around their house, amongst all their valuables?
- What happens when the inevitably unpatched/out-of-support IoT lock gets jacked? Will people be forced to buy another $250 lock/camera set every year or two so they can keep receiving updates?
- Is theft/break-in insurance even valid if you've given someone else the proverbial keys to your house?
- What's your recourse if the delivery driver, or the dog walker swipes your Rolex?
I will never wrap my head around why people are so eager to spend lots of money to erode what little privacy they have left, in exchange for very very little.
Seriously though, this leads to so many questions.
- Why would anyone give a COMPANY access to their house? And why are people ok with random strangers roaming around their house, amongst all their valuables?
- What happens when the inevitably unpatched/out-of-support IoT lock gets jacked? Will people be forced to buy another $250 lock/camera set every year or two so they can keep receiving updates?
- Is theft/break-in insurance even valid if you've given someone else the proverbial keys to your house?
- What's your recourse if the delivery driver, or the dog walker swipes your Rolex?
I will never wrap my head around why people are so eager to spend lots of money to erode what little privacy they have left, in exchange for very very little.
I believe people buy all sorts of gadgets just because they are things they don't already own, or they do already have one similar but then find a new one that has slightly better styling / matches their decor better / has a new feature, or someone they know has a better one so now they have to have the best too.
And that is about as much thought that goes in to it.
And that is about as much thought that goes in to it.
Sadly, that matches my experience as well. Everything is built with a lifecycle that is closely related to the release date of the next model.
Even without privacy concerns etc, I could not use that. The only door lock that I can change is the one to my apartment, but there is another locked door at the street entrance.
I would not want to subject my neighbors to couriers asking to be buzzed in all the time.
I would not want to subject my neighbors to couriers asking to be buzzed in all the time.
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At a past apartment in the city, I gave a key to the front mud-room area to my UPS guy. It was the best thing ever.
That said, Amazon subcontractors routinely leave packages on my front stoop in the city in spite of the sign I have the asks for packages to be dropped over the side fence. A number have been taken -- and I wouldn't say it's not their fault packages get stolen in cities, but it's common sense leaving something on a stoop probably isn't a great idea.
UPS/Fedex seem to always drop over my fence.
No way I'd trust amazon to execute this well in the first few years.
That said, Amazon subcontractors routinely leave packages on my front stoop in the city in spite of the sign I have the asks for packages to be dropped over the side fence. A number have been taken -- and I wouldn't say it's not their fault packages get stolen in cities, but it's common sense leaving something on a stoop probably isn't a great idea.
UPS/Fedex seem to always drop over my fence.
No way I'd trust amazon to execute this well in the first few years.
When Amazon deliveries are always left under sign "Don't leave your package here, leave it few feet away", I will trust some random dude to open my front door in order to deliver my package.
Great concept.
I have used a few smart locks (until last year), and I must say the experience has not been anything close to good or amazing. Batteries are drained almost all the time, the lock can sometimes refuse to work.
For Amazon's Key service to work well, they need to have the locks work very reliably. The lock may be the Key's weakest link (not in terms of security, but in terms of reliability).
I have used a few smart locks (until last year), and I must say the experience has not been anything close to good or amazing. Batteries are drained almost all the time, the lock can sometimes refuse to work.
For Amazon's Key service to work well, they need to have the locks work very reliably. The lock may be the Key's weakest link (not in terms of security, but in terms of reliability).
Interesting. What brand lock were you using? My father's beach house has Yale z-wave locks and they have been reliable enough.
Nice. mine were initial versions of Lockitron. And then an August(didn't have much patience to test it, so returned it). Haven't tried Yale Z-wave (is it standalone? or is it bundled with a security service?). I'll give it a try when I move next time.
Ah, yeah, I was skeptical of the upstart brands.
Yale and Schlage seem to be reliable (Dad has used both, his rental agency prefers the Yale on all homes for consistency).
Z-wave and Zigbee are two of the common home automation protocols. So, you'd use those locks (or other devices) in conjunction with an automation hub (I use Samsung Smartthings, Dad uses a Vera). Some will also integrate with the Nest system or Alexa, but I'm not sure if that's directly, or via one of the hubs I mentioned.
You can build your own "security" system with these. Quotes because adding cellular/phone support isn't usually directly supported, though there are ways to hack it together.
I have mine set with timers, motion sensors, a Nest thermostat, and light switches. I'll add cameras eventually - waiting to see how the Nest video doorbell works out (if it's good, I'll likely cough up the money and go all Nest camera).
Yale and Schlage seem to be reliable (Dad has used both, his rental agency prefers the Yale on all homes for consistency).
Z-wave and Zigbee are two of the common home automation protocols. So, you'd use those locks (or other devices) in conjunction with an automation hub (I use Samsung Smartthings, Dad uses a Vera). Some will also integrate with the Nest system or Alexa, but I'm not sure if that's directly, or via one of the hubs I mentioned.
You can build your own "security" system with these. Quotes because adding cellular/phone support isn't usually directly supported, though there are ways to hack it together.
I have mine set with timers, motion sensors, a Nest thermostat, and light switches. I'll add cameras eventually - waiting to see how the Nest video doorbell works out (if it's good, I'll likely cough up the money and go all Nest camera).
Thanks for that info!! Will certainly try these options next time! Just curious, how often do you need to change/charge batteries?
I have a Schlage on my house, and just changed the batteries (4 AA) after a year. They read as '60%' in SmartThings, but they were getting sluggish. You could hear that it did not have enough torque to do its job as well.
Annually. They don't die in that time, but better safe than sorry (and locked out on a rainy day).
I have a Schlage smart lock and still keep a spare key hidden. I'd never trust the electronics 100%.
Can confirm. :)
Having had a Yale z-wave lock on my front door without issue for about 18 months and have had to change the batteries once.
Having had a Yale z-wave lock on my front door without issue for about 18 months and have had to change the batteries once.
wow. change batteries or recharge once in 18 months? How often does it require recharging? No I want to try yale locks :-|
This has been the opposite of my experience, but that's just an anecdote, go look at the most popular smart locks on Amazon.
I've been using mine for a rental home, and it has paid for itself multiple times over the years by not having to replace keys, not having to call locksmiths for locked keys, and not having to change locks when tenants leave. Why more people aren't using smart locks is beyond me.
I've been using mine for a rental home, and it has paid for itself multiple times over the years by not having to replace keys, not having to call locksmiths for locked keys, and not having to change locks when tenants leave. Why more people aren't using smart locks is beyond me.
>I've been using mine for a rental home
>Why more people aren't using smart locks is beyond me.
Because that's an entirely different use case. Do you have a smart lock on your own home?
>Why more people aren't using smart locks is beyond me.
Because that's an entirely different use case. Do you have a smart lock on your own home?
Rental properties are a particularly good use case but they're handy in general. Many of us have various people who need access to our house when we're not around--or relatives/friends who we want to give access in case of emergencies, etc. It's nice to just be able to given them a code. Keyless entry more broadly is also nice because it means one less thing (keys) I need to take on trips when I'm not driving.
That's great, 250$ for a lock that saves time to couriers. A trip to a pickup point costs much less (walking 3 corners for me)...
And a trip to a pickup point for me is about an hour of travel time and having to find a parking spot in a crowded street.
Isn't it nice that they offer multiple options for multiple different people with multiple use cases?
Isn't it nice that they offer multiple options for multiple different people with multiple use cases?
Distance aside, 250$ is crazy for being able to receive packages when you're not home. Modern society problems at its finest.
It's not $250 to receive packages when you're not home, it's $250 to receive packages securely without the possibility of them being stolen from your front porch.
And it's just a different "implementation" of many other products that have been invented to do the same thing. [0] is a "package lock box" that gives a similar result for $230. But it's ugly, won't store larger boxes, and is often harder to get your delivery people to use.
If your packages are getting repeatedly stolen, I don't think it's any more "crazy" than you replacing a faulty computer part in your PC. Yes, that's a "modern society problem" as well, but it's not crazy in the slightest...
[0] http://a.co/efwOSZf
And it's just a different "implementation" of many other products that have been invented to do the same thing. [0] is a "package lock box" that gives a similar result for $230. But it's ugly, won't store larger boxes, and is often harder to get your delivery people to use.
If your packages are getting repeatedly stolen, I don't think it's any more "crazy" than you replacing a faulty computer part in your PC. Yes, that's a "modern society problem" as well, but it's not crazy in the slightest...
[0] http://a.co/efwOSZf
Also, you're buying a smart deadbolt and indoor security camera...
What? No? You're life's not exactly like mine? Yours must be wrong. /s
I thought I was the only one who thought that way!
No thanks, this is not a product for me. Just leave the package in front of my door. Who is this meant for?
Walmart has also previously announced a similar idea. I'm curious how insurers will respond to this.
I'd say it's most likely that insurers will just consider it falling under the current guest-exemption clause i.e. any damage or loss caused to your home or contents by people you invited onto the premises is not covered.
Truly caveat emptor, unless the retailers themselves start carrying third-party insurance like tradesmen often do.
Truly caveat emptor, unless the retailers themselves start carrying third-party insurance like tradesmen often do.
Why does the postal service leave all Amazon packages on front stoops? They do in Baltimore, anyway, as a matter of policy. The USPS packages they bring back to their facility for you to pick up. This key service seems kind of like an intentional workaround for that problem.
Lot's of "nope" here. While it's okay in my neighborhood for a delivery service to leave my packages on my front deck, there are many others who would not be comfortable with this. For those people, I see this as a huge draw.
Is this the same couriers that throw packages over fences and do long-throws onto porches?
Outside of mixed urban neighborhoods, is this really a problem that needs solving? I try to have packages delivered to my office for convenience, but still have plenty delivered to my home, where they sit on the front stoop until I get home.
Not a chance I'd use this "service" for any purpose much less install any kind of "smart" lock on my primary residence. A place used for AirBnB, maybe I'd use a more featured lock but never at my home.
Darn, I was hoping it was a service for remotely scratching car paint by drone.
> Amazon only trusts its own delivery team to handle this work.
If this includes the ‘any guy with a minivan’ amazon flex drivers, then I’m out - I’ve heard way too many wacky stories about them to trust that enough for a lock.
If this includes the ‘any guy with a minivan’ amazon flex drivers, then I’m out - I’ve heard way too many wacky stories about them to trust that enough for a lock.
I love amazon lockers, you don't have to worry if some idiot has been or not.
i'd also like to see "don't deliver to my house option", meaning i'll come and pick it up from a depot the same day.
i'd also like to see "don't deliver to my house option", meaning i'll come and pick it up from a depot the same day.
> i'd also like to see "don't deliver to my house option", meaning i'll come and pick it up from a depot the same day.
This almost exists in Portland, OR at least: many items have an option for "one-day pickup": https://smile.amazon.com/gp/campus?campusId=CAMPUS_POR
I say "almost" because it's not same-day: it's overnight.
This almost exists in Portland, OR at least: many items have an option for "one-day pickup": https://smile.amazon.com/gp/campus?campusId=CAMPUS_POR
I say "almost" because it's not same-day: it's overnight.
by same day, i mean as soon as it's at a close enough depot for me to pick up.
Leaving a camera inside my house connected to amazon servers, and allow entrey of works while I'm not home?
No Thanks. I still preer 2 big locks and a big dog taking care of my home while I'm not there.
No Thanks. I still preer 2 big locks and a big dog taking care of my home while I'm not there.
"It's okay, it's Amazon!" (Reference: https://youtu.be/xf9V2l7l5Z4?t=26)
I hadn't seen that clip before. Well played, and thank you!
I don't hate this idea, but we have a large Anatolian shepherd mix that is perpetually guarding her 'meadow', so don't think this will work for us.
Initially, I saw this and thought it was an AWS service. Then, I realized how bad of an idea it is to allow third-party access to non-revokable private keys.
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Amazon delivery person sees a marijuana plant ...call the police. Etc etc. No thanks.
I'll pick it up at a delivery hub or keep coming back./
I'll pick it up at a delivery hub or keep coming back./
Next step: Amazon guys have to wear a shock collar by contract, an IA oversees every drop and stun him if anything suspect happen.
Am I the only one who finds this creepy?
Of course I also find all these home voice assistants with always-on microphones unbelievably creepy.
Of course I also find all these home voice assistants with always-on microphones unbelievably creepy.
Its about the home services delivery angle. The courier is just the simplest one to explain to get some level of adoption.
Amazon hasn't had a good idea in almost a decade, and this hare-brained scheme isn't bucking that trend.
This is not the first offering of its kind and it won't be the last. It just happens to be Amazon.
And someone takes a good look at your possessions and someone else comes 3 week later to take them.
No thanks.
No thanks.
This hits at the overlying issue...you are not trusting Amazon with access to your home, you are implicitly trusting the person working for Amazon, oh who by the way may not be making a liveable wage, with access to your home.
I'm not trusting the vetting process Amazon is applying, especially after I experienced many problems with people working for Amazon Logistics.
Amazon has a camera to unlock the front door to my house.
Nope. Can’t ever see that going wrong.
Nope. Can’t ever see that going wrong.
or you know you could just do delivery on a specified time...like in most countries I know of
Fuck this is VERY CREEPY. Giving a company the power to enter your home. Why is this even considered normal.
why not just crate fortefied boxes that get retrofitted to houses instead?
Over my cold, dead body.
No, just no.
No. Just no.
No, no, no. Not my house.
Man this and WalMart haha
Edit: oh well I'm setting up my own home camera facing the door and hopefully with opencv can tell if it's not me but that's a dream/future goal at this time.
The bot net is an interesting question Cloudflare I guess or use high load design like node, will see.
Edit: will add I want this because I will be living by myself and maintenance people have keys/can open my door if I'm not there. Probably a dumb concern but oh well I'm poor too.
I realize proof is in the pudding, bought the parts, started the repo will see
Overall though sounding like a luddite, not keen on strangers having a key into my home despite liability on their behalf. If there was a second door with regard to package dropoff that would be something.
Edit: oh well I'm setting up my own home camera facing the door and hopefully with opencv can tell if it's not me but that's a dream/future goal at this time.
The bot net is an interesting question Cloudflare I guess or use high load design like node, will see.
Edit: will add I want this because I will be living by myself and maintenance people have keys/can open my door if I'm not there. Probably a dumb concern but oh well I'm poor too.
I realize proof is in the pudding, bought the parts, started the repo will see
Overall though sounding like a luddite, not keen on strangers having a key into my home despite liability on their behalf. If there was a second door with regard to package dropoff that would be something.
Err no. Whoever came up with this idea should simply be taken outside and shot. Actually whoever allowed it to get to this state of development should be shot. The ideas guy and the worker bees are just doing what they say.
There is nothing good that could come of this. Nothing even slightly at all.
There is nothing good that could come of this. Nothing even slightly at all.
Haha that's reminiscent of people who said AirBnB was a crazy idea!
It is a crazy idea. Look how well received it is:
https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.airbnb.com
Anything based on abstracted trust is a disaster waiting to happen.
https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.airbnb.com
Anything based on abstracted trust is a disaster waiting to happen.
AirBnB is a crazy idea. I wouldn't let strangers stay at my house, let alone walk in to deliver a package.
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...in fact, it's so much a better solution that I can't imagine Amazon hadn't considered it. They could easily sell Amazon Qubbies with the same pitch they're making here. I can only conclude that the real goal is to get you to install those cameras.
Side-anecdote/thought: I used to live in a mixed-use building with 20 units, or so. One of the businesses downstairs was a DVD rental place (this was only a couple years ago; they're still there!), and they volunteered to accept packages for the upstairs residents. Little informal services like that can add up to something that can't be replicated by all the technology in the world, and I worry a bit about the consequences of seeking to obsolesce them.