How to get your first 100k active users(blog.winnie.com)
blog.winnie.com
How to get your first 100k active users
https://blog.winnie.com/how-to-get-your-first-100k-active-users-909fa4292a27
158 comments
Sure, of course! So this is one thing that might be unique to Winnie — local data is one of our value props (and the best one) but it's not the only one. We discovered pretty early on that even in the local communities people were asking not-local questions like "what's the best diaper?". This told us that there was some demand to be part of a parenting community, even if it wasn't giving you particularly local insights. This is one feature of Winnie that works anywhere in the world, and we do have an active cohort of users who just use us to talk and get advice from other parents.
We also did something that I forgot to mention in the article that helped us grow nationally before we had a lot of proprietary data. One of the nice things about starting a company in 2017 is that there are tons of great resources available to you. Free or cheap services that solve what used to be really hard problems are readily available. One such service is Foursquare. When we launched Winnie, if you opened the app in an area where we didn't have data, instead of showing you nothing we instead showed you results from Foursquare. This was admittedly not the best experience, but it gave people affordance to still find places and write reviews.
Refusing to go market-by-market also forced us to build a bunch of proprietary and very cool infrastructure that collects data at scale. One early system we built could actually figure out which restaurants had changing tables and highchairs, nationally and instantaneously, at a VERY low cost. I can't say how we did that but you'd be surprised at what's possible if you have the will and ambition :)
We also did something that I forgot to mention in the article that helped us grow nationally before we had a lot of proprietary data. One of the nice things about starting a company in 2017 is that there are tons of great resources available to you. Free or cheap services that solve what used to be really hard problems are readily available. One such service is Foursquare. When we launched Winnie, if you opened the app in an area where we didn't have data, instead of showing you nothing we instead showed you results from Foursquare. This was admittedly not the best experience, but it gave people affordance to still find places and write reviews.
Refusing to go market-by-market also forced us to build a bunch of proprietary and very cool infrastructure that collects data at scale. One early system we built could actually figure out which restaurants had changing tables and highchairs, nationally and instantaneously, at a VERY low cost. I can't say how we did that but you'd be surprised at what's possible if you have the will and ambition :)
Go true native, not hybrid
Users don't care. Most of them can't tell.
Users don't care. Most of them can't tell.
The OP wasn't talking about users, but rather best practices on how to get the App Store makers to feature you. I've heard the App Store editorial team specifically give the "go native" advice.
It's definitely not required, it just helps. Our app got featured in one of the App Store's daily stories despite it being written in React Native.
It's definitely not required, it just helps. Our app got featured in one of the App Store's daily stories despite it being written in React Native.
I kind of doubt that whoever does the feature pics looks at the binaries to figure out if it is native or not. As long as the end result is not easily distinguishable from native, I'm sure you are just as likely to be featured.
Yea if you play around you can really make an app look like native. Even in desktop it's difficult to figure out web apps wrapped under electron when they are done right..
> Even in desktop it's difficult to figure out web apps wrapped under electron when they are done right..
Name one.
Name one.
VSCode is close if you squint or don't know where to look for the evidence of Electron.
Its UI paradigm looks out of place on macOS–it very much looks like a website in an app wrapper.
For you, but not for most people I’d guess. Or most people don’t care enough and that’s why VSCode is hugely popular.
"Its UI paradigm looks out of place on macOS "- Which part?
Sorry, didn't see the reply. You want a web app as close to native? Look no further - https://www.nylas.com/download, source https://github.com/nylas/nylas-mail.
It's close, but not quite there. I don't see vibrancy or features from standard text controls.
Telegram desktop
Telegram is a native app: https://github.com/overtake/TelegramSwift
I'm an Android developer and a few times in 2017 I confused a Corodva app with a native app. With Chrome 63 and customized over-scroll behavior Twitter PWA is really impressive, no reason to install native Twitter app. 2018 might be breakthrough year for hybrid and PWA apps.
I'd say there's no point just framing your site in a native container, but it's still viable to use webviews where it makes sense. Particularly if you're just delivering loads of static content.
And you're the reason I don't use very many phone apps.
Developer apathy becomes user apathy. If you make great apps, your customers will be enthusiastic about using them. If you make mediocre apps, you will attract mediocre users, or no users at all.
Developer apathy becomes user apathy. If you make great apps, your customers will be enthusiastic about using them. If you make mediocre apps, you will attract mediocre users, or no users at all.
For a very long time, and it may still be true, both Uber and Instagram were hybrids. While you may not use them a lot of other people certainly aren't apathetic about those app. Facebook was a hybrid app for years although it's a native app now.
Mediocre apps are annoying, I agree, but that rarely has anything to do with the underlying technology.
Mediocre apps are annoying, I agree, but that rarely has anything to do with the underlying technology.
> - Go true native, not hybrid
What about for games? Unity is extremely tempting, especially when the alternative is to write the game twice in two different languages...
What about for games? Unity is extremely tempting, especially when the alternative is to write the game twice in two different languages...
I don't think there's native for games. You're going to use a game engine and almost none of the OS UX conventions, so go with Unity. I don't think there are any developers that don't.
I'd say Unity is native. Arguably so are JavaScript runtimes like react-native or nativescript. She's probably just referring to the poor experience of hybrid web apps.
I'd honestly just lean in on PWAs if you're a content/SEO focussed business.
I'd honestly just lean in on PWAs if you're a content/SEO focussed business.
Exactly, Unity and Unreal makes a native and highly optimized graphics engine for every platform they support. The content you create lives on top of a native app.
Games are the exception to this rule. Apple and Google have no problem featuring games built in Unity as long as they are performant and polished.
Isn't this true for all apps? If an app is performant and polished, while also following UI/UX guidelines, it has just as good of a chance to be featured if is React vs Native? Is there anything that goes against this? Or is the idea its much harder to follow UI/UX guides while using a hybrid system?
I suspect that the reviewers see LOTS of low-quality apps written on portable frameworks every day. These are accessible and cheap options for doing quick development, and unfortunately that means that lots of junk gets churned out on them, and some of it even looks pretty decent since there are so many free UI frameworks. There are some platforms that are almost as easy and cheap to use as wordpress.
A company that does a respectable job of developing a nice-looking and performant native-application is going to stand very far apart from this crowd. The same company may have done just as well in terms of performance and UI conformity with React Native but will they stand out as well to tired and jaded reviewers? I think that is what the OP is getting at. No one can predict who will be featured, but true native is probably one thing that helps.
A company that does a respectable job of developing a nice-looking and performant native-application is going to stand very far apart from this crowd. The same company may have done just as well in terms of performance and UI conformity with React Native but will they stand out as well to tired and jaded reviewers? I think that is what the OP is getting at. No one can predict who will be featured, but true native is probably one thing that helps.
"Grow even before you launch" and "Go big or go home" really resonate with me.
We were able to sign up a few thousand people to our new product waitlist through two main channels: exhibiting at conferences and answering questions on Quora. In the past, I would have just done a small beta with friends, but I guess I'm getting a little wiser over the years :)
Going big from the beginning is really a tough one. I already got burned at a previous startup by not narrowing the focus enough, but it really depends on the market and the type of product you are building. We're building a product for college students, which is a big group, so it's a toss-up whether to go after a certain category of students or go after them all. We're casting a wide net for now with the idea that our product will resonate with certain subgroups which we can focus later.
We were able to sign up a few thousand people to our new product waitlist through two main channels: exhibiting at conferences and answering questions on Quora. In the past, I would have just done a small beta with friends, but I guess I'm getting a little wiser over the years :)
Going big from the beginning is really a tough one. I already got burned at a previous startup by not narrowing the focus enough, but it really depends on the market and the type of product you are building. We're building a product for college students, which is a big group, so it's a toss-up whether to go after a certain category of students or go after them all. We're casting a wide net for now with the idea that our product will resonate with certain subgroups which we can focus later.
I worked at a startup where we had a “waiting list” model - a page where you gave us your email and you’d get an invite later.
The CEO thought this was a good way to build up anticipation, and make sure things were fully polished before opening the floodgates.
We got a few waves of attention, which meant we had about 30k emails on the list at some point.
Of course, this large number put more pressure on us to “get things perfect before we launch”, and it was over a year before the CEO decided it was time to let everyone in.
But by the time we did, people had lost interest, and our conversion rate was abysmal. While a bit buggy and unpolished, the product was still very functional a year before, and had we just let people in we’d probably have gotten very valuable feedback a year early.
(I left the company a long time ago, and it is now in zombie mode)
The CEO thought this was a good way to build up anticipation, and make sure things were fully polished before opening the floodgates.
We got a few waves of attention, which meant we had about 30k emails on the list at some point.
Of course, this large number put more pressure on us to “get things perfect before we launch”, and it was over a year before the CEO decided it was time to let everyone in.
But by the time we did, people had lost interest, and our conversion rate was abysmal. While a bit buggy and unpolished, the product was still very functional a year before, and had we just let people in we’d probably have gotten very valuable feedback a year early.
(I left the company a long time ago, and it is now in zombie mode)
I'm guessing the CEO wasn't a product person? Expecting to launch with a perfect product is just not going to end well. I view the waitlist as a way to get a basic idea to a broad audience and both validate your idea and iterate quickly based on feedback. Waiting too long will just kill what passing interest someone had to enter their email in the first place. We've had the waitlist for a few months and that's even longer than I would like.
I should add that the waitlist strategy isn't always the right one. If you are a new team building a product in an unfamiliar space, it might be better to start with a small group of users. We've been fortunate to have a succesful product in a similar space, so we can take a little bit more of a risk.
I should add that the waitlist strategy isn't always the right one. If you are a new team building a product in an unfamiliar space, it might be better to start with a small group of users. We've been fortunate to have a succesful product in a similar space, so we can take a little bit more of a risk.
Pfft, 30k? I'd love to have 30k leads.
I have, like 10 people on my "coming soon" mailing list. And I personally know 5 of them :D
I have no flippin' idea how the other 5 found my landing page. I haven't been running ads or anything. I was going to wait till I actually launched (hopefully in a few weeks).
My thought process was the same. Pay for Adwords, et al., to drive people to a page that basically says "Sorry, we're not ready yet, but sign up for our mailing list, maybe?" Not sure that's a good idea.
I have no flippin' idea how the other 5 found my landing page. I haven't been running ads or anything. I was going to wait till I actually launched (hopefully in a few weeks).
My thought process was the same. Pay for Adwords, et al., to drive people to a page that basically says "Sorry, we're not ready yet, but sign up for our mailing list, maybe?" Not sure that's a good idea.
Our lead designer had 20k+ twitter followers, so that was the core of it.
Ooh, I have 7. Perhaps my aversion to social media has consequences.
I was an early employee of Quora and can vouch for it being a good place to do content marketing! I really love that site.
The idea that you should have a small scope and narrow focus is the one very common piece of startup advice I struggle with. In my experience at Winnie, whenever we "thought small" growth would stall out. I think if your product is just better with higher numbers of users, get as many people into it as you can.
The idea that you should have a small scope and narrow focus is the one very common piece of startup advice I struggle with. In my experience at Winnie, whenever we "thought small" growth would stall out. I think if your product is just better with higher numbers of users, get as many people into it as you can.
Yeah, it's a tough one. Like most startup advice, the right answer should be "it depends". For me, I try to gauge whether the product and customer acquisition can be generalized. If both can be, which seems to be true in your case (and hopefully mine!), I think going wide is the right choice.
I get the idea of building your users/interest before it event exists but I personally am not 100% on board with that idea especially if the product doesn't exist yet.
And I know who am I, nobody. But as a person who hears about some service like "We'll help you get hired by these new methods of looking over resumes" great. sign me up. I sign up "Sorry we're in private beta at this time." like what? Why did I Go through all of that process to be told it's not available.
And I know who am I, nobody. But as a person who hears about some service like "We'll help you get hired by these new methods of looking over resumes" great. sign me up. I sign up "Sorry we're in private beta at this time." like what? Why did I Go through all of that process to be told it's not available.
Yes, it does seem unethical. IIRC these techniques were discussed at length in HN in the 'early days' of the tech startup 'boom' (or at least the early days of HN).
Whats unethical?
I understand its not exactly fun to be at the receiving end of that treatment but i fail to see what values it is really violating
I understand its not exactly fun to be at the receiving end of that treatment but i fail to see what values it is really violating
When I click on a button that says effectively "Purchase" or "Buy Now" and I instead get a page that says "Sign up to stay informed" the page has lied to me.
I fully understand that the design pattern solves a difficult problem that we all have: how to know if someone would really be willing to buy your product. Because if you ask, many people will say they would buy it, but when it comes time to pull out their credit card they don't do it.
But it's still tricking the customer into doing something he or she wouldn't ordinarily do if they had known what the button really did.
I fully understand that the design pattern solves a difficult problem that we all have: how to know if someone would really be willing to buy your product. Because if you ask, many people will say they would buy it, but when it comes time to pull out their credit card they don't do it.
But it's still tricking the customer into doing something he or she wouldn't ordinarily do if they had known what the button really did.
> "Grow even before you launch" and "Go big or go home" really resonate with me.
What is wrong with building the functionality first, get paying customers, and from there scale? At least that way, you'll have the money to scale.
What is wrong with building the functionality first, get paying customers, and from there scale? At least that way, you'll have the money to scale.
even to maintain a single dev of a bootstrapped app one needs to recoup its costs, and for that you need users, so there's that. more users is always better especially if users themselves drive your growth since server and development both cost so you start up pretty well in debt.
you have also to consider that solution don't grow in a vacuum. the moment you build something, you can count of having ten competitors out there doing the same or similar thing, akin to convergent evolution someone else is experiencing the same need you're solving right now and among those someone is building a solution. if you want to monetize your solution, unless it's a physical thing, you need to be the first out there and the faster growing.
additionally, if the strategy involves financing at some point, a big cache of user waiting/registered is good leverage and something you can build without having a product if you have the resources to do both - more financing, more money to grow and outgrow competitors.
people sometime demonize growth but unless your startup is something that inherently doesn't scale growth and lock-in are practically the first filter to weed the competition.
you have also to consider that solution don't grow in a vacuum. the moment you build something, you can count of having ten competitors out there doing the same or similar thing, akin to convergent evolution someone else is experiencing the same need you're solving right now and among those someone is building a solution. if you want to monetize your solution, unless it's a physical thing, you need to be the first out there and the faster growing.
additionally, if the strategy involves financing at some point, a big cache of user waiting/registered is good leverage and something you can build without having a product if you have the resources to do both - more financing, more money to grow and outgrow competitors.
people sometime demonize growth but unless your startup is something that inherently doesn't scale growth and lock-in are practically the first filter to weed the competition.
It’s not wrong, but if you have the opportunity, why not generate interest and get customers as early as possible? We’ve had success convincing institutional customers to agree to purchase even before we've built the product. You get validation and revenue, and it's a great story for investors and partners.
This evening we got our 171st user for our wishlist-service. When we launched it 1 year ago we tried to get it out on different channels like Reddit and HN without much success, while we _did_ see success in just talking about it to friends and family, and had just over 100 users in January this year.
Since then, we've done close to zero marketing, and it's been amazing to see new signups, wishlists and items being created - seemingly out of the blue. I made a simple Slack-bot to post those events to a channel with their ID, and these are the stats from it was added late March until now: 53 new users, 74 new wishlists, and 482 new items.
As we do no sort of analytics, we have no clue who these people are, but boy does it make me happy to see those "A new user was just created!"-messages nonetheless!
Since then, we've done close to zero marketing, and it's been amazing to see new signups, wishlists and items being created - seemingly out of the blue. I made a simple Slack-bot to post those events to a channel with their ID, and these are the stats from it was added late March until now: 53 new users, 74 new wishlists, and 482 new items.
As we do no sort of analytics, we have no clue who these people are, but boy does it make me happy to see those "A new user was just created!"-messages nonetheless!
You can't get from 0 to 100k without passing through 171 first. :) Congrats and good luck!
Very true! :) Thank you, and likewise - pretty sure there's more than 100k information-hungry parents out there, so wouldn't be surprised to see the "100k to 500k"-post in the not too distant future!
Maybe you can if you get multiple users sign up at once :-)
I have a suggestion for wishy (if you're not doing this already of course).
Extract out the most popular items that people are sharing (no identifying information connected, only extract out super items that you can identify well, like "Wonder Woman on blu ray"), or similarly build your own curated lists based on what's popular right now (eg a new PS4 game). Build some categories that they belong to ("video games" or "clothing"). Then enable people to quickly browse for things within those segments to add to their wish lists. It should boost wishlist item adding substantially over time and give people new ideas. You could also build a gently curated top 10 or 20 item list in a given week or month (manually reviewed for potentially inappropriate items). You can track various metrics for what's moving socially right now for a link/item to get an improved idea on what matters to provide some further ranking (eg facebook sharing acceleration or deceleration).
Extract out the most popular items that people are sharing (no identifying information connected, only extract out super items that you can identify well, like "Wonder Woman on blu ray"), or similarly build your own curated lists based on what's popular right now (eg a new PS4 game). Build some categories that they belong to ("video games" or "clothing"). Then enable people to quickly browse for things within those segments to add to their wish lists. It should boost wishlist item adding substantially over time and give people new ideas. You could also build a gently curated top 10 or 20 item list in a given week or month (manually reviewed for potentially inappropriate items). You can track various metrics for what's moving socially right now for a link/item to get an improved idea on what matters to provide some further ranking (eg facebook sharing acceleration or deceleration).
We aren't doing this, and we definitively should! I've added this to the todo-list, and will work towards having manually curated lists up first, and try to make it a bit more automatic when we have a bigger user mass. Can't give you a specific date for implementing this, as Wishy.gift is both a sideproject and - at least for now - very seasonal (36 of the 53 new users since March signed up in November/December), but I'm hoping to have this up for August/September :)
To be honest, I wish I had this two weeks ago when I was making my own wishlist!
Thank you for taking the time to suggest a feature!
To be honest, I wish I had this two weeks ago when I was making my own wishlist!
Thank you for taking the time to suggest a feature!
One even smaller suggestion: in "Your friends and family can check of which items they are getting,", the word "of" should be "off" :)
Appreciate it! Fixed in next build!
In case anyone is wondering (like I was), I think this is the site:
https://wishy.gift
https://wishy.gift
That's the one! Any feedback and suggestions are appreciated!
Usually landing pages for early stage products tend to be iffy but you've killed it honestly! I got what your product was in 10 secs.
What would be awesome is a link to a demo wishlist!
What would be awesome is a link to a demo wishlist!
Agree with this, your landing page is _so good_ I'm going to use the format to replace my own garbage landing page. Thank you for the inspiration, this is awesome. You're starting a movement!
By the way, congrats on 171 users :)
By the way, congrats on 171 users :)
Wow, thank you! Good luck with your own project too!
Thank you for those awesome words!
A demo wishlist is a great idea, perhaps with the ability to switch between how the creator sees the list and how others do?
Really appreciate the suggestion, will be adding this!
A demo wishlist is a great idea, perhaps with the ability to switch between how the creator sees the list and how others do?
Really appreciate the suggestion, will be adding this!
Just a friendly heads up (love the idea!)... clicking "Why Facebook?" works on Chrome, but not Safari (I'm on Safari 11, macOS 10.13.1).
Thank you for letting me know! I'll have a look at this as soon as I get my hands on a mac!
On the landing page below "share it", "check of" should be "check off".
It's been like that for a whole year without anyone noticing - or at least without anyone telling us. Thank you for doing so!
Fixed in next build :)
Fixed in next build :)
I'm liking how it looks, but, at least on mobile, I'm not able to find a list of features. I don't know if my behaviour is typical but on most sites that means I move on to find a similar site that does include a feature list.
For example, it was recently sinterklaas (Dutch holiday with a tradition of randomizing who gets who gifts) so someone in the family set up a list on https://www.lootjestrekken.nl/. That way everyone got an email, as soon as you clicked 'OK' on that email you're able to make a wishlist, ask questions to the group, ask anonymous questions to the person you're meant to buy for, etc.
I guess what I'm asking is, without having to watch some videos (it's quicker to hit next result on Google) how can I know how your product works? I see right away it's vaguely what I'm looking for, but as you can tell I've got specific demands, and I don't think I'm the only one. So how can I know it's exactly what I'm looking for?
For example, it was recently sinterklaas (Dutch holiday with a tradition of randomizing who gets who gifts) so someone in the family set up a list on https://www.lootjestrekken.nl/. That way everyone got an email, as soon as you clicked 'OK' on that email you're able to make a wishlist, ask questions to the group, ask anonymous questions to the person you're meant to buy for, etc.
I guess what I'm asking is, without having to watch some videos (it's quicker to hit next result on Google) how can I know how your product works? I see right away it's vaguely what I'm looking for, but as you can tell I've got specific demands, and I don't think I'm the only one. So how can I know it's exactly what I'm looking for?
Looks interesting but I don't have a Facebook account :/
The dependency on Facebook is kind of unfortunate, as it excludes those who either don't have a Facebook account, or for various reasons do not want to use it to sign up for services. I am myself in the latter category, but went with it as I wanted a single login, and saw it as the best alternative at the time - got some more about that in the 'why Facebook?' section on the site.
Would really like to provide a solution that could work without login, but I'm kinda clueless on how to solve this in a good way, that allows for the creator not knowing what has been checked off or not, as well as allowing others to both check and later - perhaps even on another device - uncheck items :/
Would really like to provide a solution that could work without login, but I'm kinda clueless on how to solve this in a good way, that allows for the creator not knowing what has been checked off or not, as well as allowing others to both check and later - perhaps even on another device - uncheck items :/
On the landing page the images within the gray circles are not loading... assuming that there were images (I only see grey big circles).
Using chromium (desktop)
Using chromium (desktop)
How strange! These are autoplaying, muted videos, which has worked on every platform and browser I've tried so far. What OS and which version of chromium are you on?
I like the idea and could see myself using it, but I don't use Facebook.
Have you thought about a few marketing side projects for your site? For example, maybe (a) showcase public lists with a count of how many people clicks on each item, (b) creating a list for entrepreneurs, parents, teachers, etc, and (c) sharing them on the respective site.
People will hopefully not just find the items interesting, but will also be curious to see what items others are looking at.
And best of all, hopefully a lot of people will find your site this way.
People will hopefully not just find the items interesting, but will also be curious to see what items others are looking at.
And best of all, hopefully a lot of people will find your site this way.
that's awesome on getting to 171. I just recently hit 6. But, the first 2 were mine.
I'm using a throwaway because I don't want this associated with my my main account, but a super valuable market for you here is sex workers. I used to be a camgirl, and a main source of income for a good chunk of camgirls is getting people to buy gifts off of wishlists. Usually people use Amazon's wishlist feature, but that obviously limits you to things that are on Amazon, which doesn't have a great selection of sex-related stuff. Having a pretty, store-agnostic platform would be really welcomed.
Good places to find camgirls is /r/camming / linked subreddits in the sidebar, along with the sites themselves (I only used Chaturbate, so I can't speak to the other platforms).
Good places to find camgirls is /r/camming / linked subreddits in the sidebar, along with the sites themselves (I only used Chaturbate, so I can't speak to the other platforms).
Best takeaways from the article (no particular order):
Also, the "don't use cross platform" preached in the article isn't very convincing. You can get excellent performance with well-coded cross-platform build tools, and in far less time.
- Retool ads as a way to test for and identify demand.
- Bait people with truly useful content where they're already looking, and then direct them to your app.
- Simple changes in wording or flow of UX can increase shares dramatically.
- Get featured in app stores. How?
- Integrate with latest device features being pushed
- Adhere to vendor design standards
- Email is still very effective, so use it.
- Have 10 enthusiastic users that will spread their enthusiasm before you start.
Also, the "don't use cross platform" preached in the article isn't very convincing. You can get excellent performance with well-coded cross-platform build tools, and in far less time.
> Especially if you aren't a social butterfly.
The best way to get those 10 enthusiastic users, without being a social butterfly (in a traditional sense), is to manufacture them through inclusion. For example, find a subreddit that is relevant to what you're doing, and sell a batch of users on being early adopters (a certain type of people love that). Then give those people credit, attention, and make them feel like their input matters and that their contribution to the thing matters. Basically, make it personal for them, cultivate that experience. For a lot of people those last few concepts can be very rewarding, they'll become your first cheerleaders (and just one of those on eg Reddit can spark something). I've observed that people who are not traditional social butterflies, can still often function at a decent social level on sites like Reddit (at least enough to do what I've described).
The best way to get those 10 enthusiastic users, without being a social butterfly (in a traditional sense), is to manufacture them through inclusion. For example, find a subreddit that is relevant to what you're doing, and sell a batch of users on being early adopters (a certain type of people love that). Then give those people credit, attention, and make them feel like their input matters and that their contribution to the thing matters. Basically, make it personal for them, cultivate that experience. For a lot of people those last few concepts can be very rewarding, they'll become your first cheerleaders (and just one of those on eg Reddit can spark something). I've observed that people who are not traditional social butterflies, can still often function at a decent social level on sites like Reddit (at least enough to do what I've described).
^ This is good advice.
The point about native is that it’s more likely to win over Apple/Google editorial teams for getting featured. And getting featured is an absolutely massive growth opportunity which you can optimize for.
"Get featured by apple/google"
Honestly, its like giving financial advice and saying "Ok, win the lottery or marry someone rich"
Honestly, its like giving financial advice and saying "Ok, win the lottery or marry someone rich"
It's not really like winning the lottery. There's a lot of different kinds of promotional features they can give you, with different levels of publicity. You just have to make a high quality app that does something useful or new (or a good game), and ask their editorial team if they can promote your app. They'll usually give you some kind of promotion on the store.
It's "editor's choice" and the other front/center features that you might equate to "winning the lottery". And yeah, you can't expect that unless you've already made something huge.
It's "editor's choice" and the other front/center features that you might equate to "winning the lottery". And yeah, you can't expect that unless you've already made something huge.
and how do you actually contact the editorial team?
If you look around there are ways to reach them. The author of A Dark Room made a thorough post on this on Reddit but he’s since taken it down; maybe there’s an archive.
go to local Mac/iOS dev meetups and ask around. they also show up at conferences and of course at WWDC.
It’s not a lottery. I’ve done it several times over many years with different products and companies. The advice I laid out is basically how I did that.
Of course you can’t control if you are featured or not just like you can’t control if you get a writeup in a big publication. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t give yourself the best chance of getting it.
Of course you can’t control if you are featured or not just like you can’t control if you get a writeup in a big publication. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t give yourself the best chance of getting it.
It would be great, if you can write a dedicated post on it. Im interested to learn more tips. Thanks
Except the author gave 4 or 5 great tips on how to achieve the goal of getting featured.
BTW, I'm the OP and am happy to answer questions here. My expertise is obviously in consumer internet products but I spend a lot of time thinking about growth. It's my superpower!
What's a "very modest spend" when it comes to advertising? How much is enough to validate whether and ad is or isn't working in your experience? Also did a majority of your new users come from being featured on app stores or was it primarily through turning the modest spend into a serious spend once the ad was converting?
Enough to get statistically significant data. There are programs to get $100 AdWords or FB Ads credit and that's more then enough to get a few thousand to 10k impressions on your ads and give you decent data about how well they perform. I would usually set a testing campaign to spend about $10/day for 5-7 days, and would shut it down early if it was looking particularly bad.
Our app is free, so we aren't eager to pay for installs at any price, and paid aq is not a major channel for us. The lion's share of our new users come from organic search, social sharing, and word of mouth.
Our app is free, so we aren't eager to pay for installs at any price, and paid aq is not a major channel for us. The lion's share of our new users come from organic search, social sharing, and word of mouth.
Can I ask for a ballpark of what # of users it took to get to that inflection point when SEO and word of mouth takes over? At least in my experience getting to there has proven to be the main challenge.
Also- thanks for taking questions and congrats on your success :)
Also- thanks for taking questions and congrats on your success :)
It entirely depends on the domain so there's no good answer for this.
Our growth has been remarkably steady, with minor seasonal factors. If the majority of your acquisition channels scale with the number of users (SEO, social, viral) then you should see a steady accumulation of momentum over time, even from a very small number — perhaps the low thousands.
We've had a strong word of mouth factor from the very beginning, but I attribute that mostly to the brand and the fact that this is an underserved market. Parents have traditionally been invisible to tech companies and they are delighted someone is finally building for them.
Our growth has been remarkably steady, with minor seasonal factors. If the majority of your acquisition channels scale with the number of users (SEO, social, viral) then you should see a steady accumulation of momentum over time, even from a very small number — perhaps the low thousands.
We've had a strong word of mouth factor from the very beginning, but I attribute that mostly to the brand and the fact that this is an underserved market. Parents have traditionally been invisible to tech companies and they are delighted someone is finally building for them.
Now that you have users and presumably mounting operations costs, what's the plan for revenue?
As well, got other questions, but understand if you don't want to answer, what did you think was the most important problem you solved for your users and how did you get people to really download your app after the beta stage?
This also sounds like a good link that can go on indiehackers.com
This also sounds like a good link that can go on indiehackers.com
Thanks, I'll check it out.
We solve an huge number of extremely important problems for our users. Some things just off the top of my head:
- Find local daycares that have spaces available, which is pretty important when you need to work
- Find a nearby restroom or changing table when you need one RIGHT NOW (and when you need one, it's usually RIGHT NOW)
- Get parenting advice in real time on just about any topic
- If you're someone who doesn't fit in with traditional parenting groups (mostly moms, mostly married, etc), connect with a community of parents like you (single parents, stay home dads, etc)
- Find places where you can nurse or pump safely
- Get suggestions for things to do with your kids, because they are bored and you need to get out of the house
- Locate family-friendly restaurants and businesses when traveling
Etc. In some ways this is actually a challenge as there's no single, dead-simple value prop that we can use. But I love Winnie. We're genuinely helping people be less stressed and more successful as parents.
We solve an huge number of extremely important problems for our users. Some things just off the top of my head:
- Find local daycares that have spaces available, which is pretty important when you need to work
- Find a nearby restroom or changing table when you need one RIGHT NOW (and when you need one, it's usually RIGHT NOW)
- Get parenting advice in real time on just about any topic
- If you're someone who doesn't fit in with traditional parenting groups (mostly moms, mostly married, etc), connect with a community of parents like you (single parents, stay home dads, etc)
- Find places where you can nurse or pump safely
- Get suggestions for things to do with your kids, because they are bored and you need to get out of the house
- Locate family-friendly restaurants and businesses when traveling
Etc. In some ways this is actually a challenge as there's no single, dead-simple value prop that we can use. But I love Winnie. We're genuinely helping people be less stressed and more successful as parents.
Hey Anne, my qns is with regards to getting a forum started.
I see that Winnie have great topics discussion with questions asked and answered by users.
For a new forum, there are bound to be empty-room syndromes.
How did you guys manage to kickstart discussions in the beginning? Is it all organic or is there some growth hack involved?
This qns have been bothering me a while and I can't seem to get any good readings anywhere else.
I see that Winnie have great topics discussion with questions asked and answered by users.
For a new forum, there are bound to be empty-room syndromes.
How did you guys manage to kickstart discussions in the beginning? Is it all organic or is there some growth hack involved?
This qns have been bothering me a while and I can't seem to get any good readings anywhere else.
Hi there, I can try to answer this question from a user perspective. I was an early Winnie user in their public beta and it's one of my top two favorite startups that has launched in the last couple of years.
Initially it did feel like an empty room, but this was before the ability to start discussions with other users and ask questions. Initially you could only add reviews of places. I remember adding a couple of reviews and since I didn't get any immediate engagement from other users it felt like I was adding valuable content but it wouldn't really be useful until they got a large number of users.
When discussions became available the biggest thing was that Anne and her co-founder Sara were really active users and shared their knowledge of being parents. Every single post that I added was liked and/or commented on by them. If you asked a parenting question or posted something in the early days it would be answered/commented/liked by Anne and Sara and often within minutes. They also would add valuable and engaging content on a daily basis whether it was an interesting article, something funny, or just asking a question that could be answered by users and start a discussion. When you see how active both of them were it makes you feel like posting something or commenting is okay and at least going to be acknowledged and appreciated by them even if there weren't a whole lot of other users that were active. I always knew that in the early days the biggest thing was just continuing to add valuable content and eventually the engagement would follow. After a few weeks I started to see other users become more active and start liking my posts and adding their own which just continued to grow until they got to some of their big growth events like being featured in the app store or launching their daycare directory.
Initially it did feel like an empty room, but this was before the ability to start discussions with other users and ask questions. Initially you could only add reviews of places. I remember adding a couple of reviews and since I didn't get any immediate engagement from other users it felt like I was adding valuable content but it wouldn't really be useful until they got a large number of users.
When discussions became available the biggest thing was that Anne and her co-founder Sara were really active users and shared their knowledge of being parents. Every single post that I added was liked and/or commented on by them. If you asked a parenting question or posted something in the early days it would be answered/commented/liked by Anne and Sara and often within minutes. They also would add valuable and engaging content on a daily basis whether it was an interesting article, something funny, or just asking a question that could be answered by users and start a discussion. When you see how active both of them were it makes you feel like posting something or commenting is okay and at least going to be acknowledged and appreciated by them even if there weren't a whole lot of other users that were active. I always knew that in the early days the biggest thing was just continuing to add valuable content and eventually the engagement would follow. After a few weeks I started to see other users become more active and start liking my posts and adding their own which just continued to grow until they got to some of their big growth events like being featured in the app store or launching their daycare directory.
What's your other favourite recent startup? Sounds like you have something specific in mind. Just curious
Thanks for being on team Winnie and for all your support since launch!
Regarding the part about native apps, would you go as far as even restraining from publishing any app, if native app developers are not available (or not in the budget) in the beginning?
I'll share an anecdotal opinion contrary to the article. I've been running the engineering team at a startup for 3 years now and our app is still 100% cordova. We passed 100k actives over a year ago.
There are many benefits to native apps from the experience polish to the community and resources surrounding them. There are 2 major negatives to native: dev time and cost.
The Native vs Cordova/SomethingElse discussion is going to have different answers depending on your use case. Let me restate that for importance. Your use case will dictate which is "correct" early on.
For us, the rapid product tests we were looking to run, in both web and mobile platforms with a very small engineering team all but required a cordova app. As our product has grown more mature, and major client features change less frequent, the appeal of native has grown. But despite that appeal, we remain firmly in cordova and will for at least another 6 months.
There are many benefits to native apps from the experience polish to the community and resources surrounding them. There are 2 major negatives to native: dev time and cost.
The Native vs Cordova/SomethingElse discussion is going to have different answers depending on your use case. Let me restate that for importance. Your use case will dictate which is "correct" early on.
For us, the rapid product tests we were looking to run, in both web and mobile platforms with a very small engineering team all but required a cordova app. As our product has grown more mature, and major client features change less frequent, the appeal of native has grown. But despite that appeal, we remain firmly in cordova and will for at least another 6 months.
That sounds absurd to me, go hybrid first then go native once it takes off, you can write your app in JavaScript and have an app that runs in all major mobile devices and a website, I'm not sure how can be beat unless money isn't a problem, such as massive initial funding.
Depends on the product. Winnie's target demo is millennial parents who are mobile power users, so we knew the apps had to be best-in-class and we were prepared to invest in them.
Not all products need to invest in amazing apps or apps at all, but if you don't have a decent app than ASO and featuring are not going to be available to you. This may or may not be important to your business.
Not all products need to invest in amazing apps or apps at all, but if you don't have a decent app than ASO and featuring are not going to be available to you. This may or may not be important to your business.
Canadian here, great to hear about your success, I'm on google play store and couldn't download, guess its US-only at this point?
I think this page completely embodies your core values and primary onboarding flows. It should be your homepage.
"Relying on push notifications alone"
Yeah no. Apps using push notification for marketing/dark purposes is super irritating and for that reason I block notifications by default from all apps.
Yeah no. Apps using push notification for marketing/dark purposes is super irritating and for that reason I block notifications by default from all apps.
You say that, but you are in a minority. Most users just mindlessly click Allow. Its an amazing power - being able to appear on someones home screen instantly at anytime with any message - but a privilege. So having each notification be useful and actionable is key. In addition to not flooding them with too much frequency.
Funnily enough, we also sort of failed to capitalize on push. We didn't even ask for push permissions in the first version of our app! Eventually we found the right push product for our users, but it's still the case that a lot of people have them off by default or prefer to be contacted by email.
Sorry if it's already mentioned, but I found it frustrating that I could not get to the winnie homepage (http://www.winnie.com) from the blog. Even the "Home" nav link at the top of the blog just points to the blog's homepage.
> Do the work to get featured by Apple & Google
Sigh...this is one of the last things to worry about. It's like hoping your roulette number hits. Doing a lot of work is like getting a second roulette wheel number towards getting featured, but a lot of work might improve your chances of success any how. Every year that goes by, this hope becomes less and less likely as the competition grows.
Also, the advice on how to get featured on Google Play is not great advice. If I wanted a higher chance of being featured in Play, I would read this web page - https://developer.android.com/about/versions/oreo/android-8.... . New features of the latest Android. Then I would make an app showcasing one of the new features that Android wants to highlight. If you look at featured apps, these are what get featured a lot. Think of it from Google's POV. Actually, Oreo has been out for a bit, so someone trying for Oreo is already behind the ball. There are videos of the Google people telling you what they look for when featuring, watch those.
Sigh...this is one of the last things to worry about. It's like hoping your roulette number hits. Doing a lot of work is like getting a second roulette wheel number towards getting featured, but a lot of work might improve your chances of success any how. Every year that goes by, this hope becomes less and less likely as the competition grows.
Also, the advice on how to get featured on Google Play is not great advice. If I wanted a higher chance of being featured in Play, I would read this web page - https://developer.android.com/about/versions/oreo/android-8.... . New features of the latest Android. Then I would make an app showcasing one of the new features that Android wants to highlight. If you look at featured apps, these are what get featured a lot. Think of it from Google's POV. Actually, Oreo has been out for a bit, so someone trying for Oreo is already behind the ball. There are videos of the Google people telling you what they look for when featuring, watch those.
I also think it's a bit ridiculous to start advising people to "go native" because of the possibility of being featured in the app store.
The cost of doing two native apps is not small at all, and I imagine (not being a mobile dev) that being featured in the App store is a LOT easier for a family friendly app like OP's than the average. I'd also assume the vast majority of native apps don't get featured.
It's well-intentioned advice, but the cost-benefit analysis is nowhere near that simple.
The cost of doing two native apps is not small at all, and I imagine (not being a mobile dev) that being featured in the App store is a LOT easier for a family friendly app like OP's than the average. I'd also assume the vast majority of native apps don't get featured.
It's well-intentioned advice, but the cost-benefit analysis is nowhere near that simple.
Great tips for an aspiring startup founder. I agree completely.
In particular the “mobile-only” resonates with me well. I have seen a number of products only provides a homepage to send me to their appstore/google play. In some cases I was trying to see what job openings were available. I was suprised to see no “career” page. Hmm Did they hide that in the webconsole / developer console? Nope!
So please do not do that to both your users and your potential hires. Your modern website should be mobile friendly, and if you are mobile-focus like instant messenger, that makes sense - but I recommend adding a desktop version later. I have facebook messenger, WhatsApp and Telegram installed on my Macs so (1) I don’t need to switch gears constantly, and (2) there are times I need to transfer stuff over from desktop...
Partnering with people in the same pace is a great idea. For example. Reaching out to Youtubers who are parents early on, brainstorm with them, and invite them to your paid sponsorship could help in your case.
At last, I am surprised you are able to register winnie.com. I would have expected it taken and if so I wonder how much it cost to buy it.
In particular the “mobile-only” resonates with me well. I have seen a number of products only provides a homepage to send me to their appstore/google play. In some cases I was trying to see what job openings were available. I was suprised to see no “career” page. Hmm Did they hide that in the webconsole / developer console? Nope!
So please do not do that to both your users and your potential hires. Your modern website should be mobile friendly, and if you are mobile-focus like instant messenger, that makes sense - but I recommend adding a desktop version later. I have facebook messenger, WhatsApp and Telegram installed on my Macs so (1) I don’t need to switch gears constantly, and (2) there are times I need to transfer stuff over from desktop...
Partnering with people in the same pace is a great idea. For example. Reaching out to Youtubers who are parents early on, brainstorm with them, and invite them to your paid sponsorship could help in your case.
At last, I am surprised you are able to register winnie.com. I would have expected it taken and if so I wonder how much it cost to buy it.
I love this kind of posts, by sharing the anecdotes of what worked and what didn't, they provide a glimpse into the inner workings and strategies for one of the biggest challenges for any startup, plus most likely will generate a considerable influx of new users from the post itself. Everybody wins.
Kudos - 100k MAU is an extremely impressive feat. This is an excellent post, very succinct and punchy advice. Especially interesting to hear about the role of web and email in growth, advice around using ads to develop company positioning is great.
You could just use fake users like Reddit did.
https://venturebeat.com/2012/06/22/reddit-fake-users/
https://venturebeat.com/2012/06/22/reddit-fake-users/
Thanks for admitting the failures you picked on the way. Since you said Mobile-only was a terrible thing to do, how did you decide Winnie has to be a mobile app and not a simple mobile responsive website in the first place?
I'm really curious how product folks decide to go mobile-first, especially in many cases where the user interacts with the app once a week or less frequently. Would love to know how you decided on this with the assumptions you made.
I'm really curious how product folks decide to go mobile-first, especially in many cases where the user interacts with the app once a week or less frequently. Would love to know how you decided on this with the assumptions you made.
This is very interesting strategy. Thanks for the good article.
Could you elaborate on the content-growth strategy? I'm really curious since in some business ideas I'm usually stuck with "chicken and egg" kind of problem. I believe there is no universal strategy here, but what worked for you except this special onboarding flow for users in new markets?
Could you elaborate on the content-growth strategy? I'm really curious since in some business ideas I'm usually stuck with "chicken and egg" kind of problem. I believe there is no universal strategy here, but what worked for you except this special onboarding flow for users in new markets?
It's in the article. Provide the supply yourself (content) while you build demand (users). Do things that don't scale.
One specific example is that we saw a lot of demand for information on child care, so we researched over 5000 local daycares & preschools and created very comprehensive pages for all of them. This sounds like a lot of work but it actually wasn't that bad. Once we had done that we were instantly the best place in the SF Bay Area to research daycares and find open spaces. Word spread like wildfire and we climbed the Google rankings quickly as well. Now, we no longer have to collect data manually, because the daycare providers come to us to reach their audience of customers. So it delivered growth on both sides of the network in a sustainable, ongoing fashion, and only required a one-time upfront investment in content creation.
One specific example is that we saw a lot of demand for information on child care, so we researched over 5000 local daycares & preschools and created very comprehensive pages for all of them. This sounds like a lot of work but it actually wasn't that bad. Once we had done that we were instantly the best place in the SF Bay Area to research daycares and find open spaces. Word spread like wildfire and we climbed the Google rankings quickly as well. Now, we no longer have to collect data manually, because the daycare providers come to us to reach their audience of customers. So it delivered growth on both sides of the network in a sustainable, ongoing fashion, and only required a one-time upfront investment in content creation.
Cool, when do you expect to gather daycare data outside the Bay Area? I see one total daycare listed in my ZIP code (in the Boston area) and the search results page doesn't say anything like "we know this is a tiny number of listings, sign up here to be notified when we reach your area" (at https://winnie.com/search?category=childcare&near=[zip] ).
Got it. So it was mostly manual investigation and content generation at first, and then users started to add their own content. Great, thanks for the answer.
What if your product doesn't really have any inherent network effects? How do you incentivise your paying customers to share the platform that's giving them a competitive edge (my SaaS is B2B)?
You could do an ambassador program of some kind (check out The Skimm, they have a great one). But I wouldn't expect people to eagerly spread the word about solutions. For B2B you should be investing in content marketing and SEO above all else. Other clever ideas are like what Slack did; make it friendly enough for a consumer to use, and then that consumer ends up advocating for the product to their organization.
The advice to not only rely on push and native mobile hits home hard - despite it being cool - email, text, and the web still work really well to bring the customers in!
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Very interesting perspective w.r.t going native. Does that mean you would advise to use Swift/Obj-C & Java/Kotlin as opposed to React Native?
If you have the choice, yes. You'll regret React for many reasons but you are so, so much less likely to be featured with a React app, even a great one. Suck it up and learn Swift/Kotlin (not that hard) and if you can get your app featured that's a cool 10-20k installs for free.
Sorry, but this is bad advice.
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Great post. We at Rave Analytics just got out of stealth.We enable retail investors to discover market structure in real time. This is good advice for us to keep up our growth.
We are already working on a native experience and email.The part about the network effects is quite interesting too. Its really hard to get network effect
How about getting 100 active users paying you $500/month each?
Only possible with SaaS and a few exceptions.
Interesting use of the word "users".
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hrykora(1)
hrykora(2)
Great post. We just got out of stealth - https://raveanalytics.com .We enable retail investors to discover market structure in real time. This is good advice for us to keep up our growth.
We are already working on a native experience and email.The part about the network effects is quite interesting too. Its really hard to get network effects going.Makes sense to focus on the demand side first.
Great post. We just got out of stealth and have launched a site that makes it easy for retail investors to discover market structure in real time - https://raveanalytics.com .We could definitely use some of the advice here to fuel our growth.
Going native on the mobile and email is something we are already working on. The advice about focusing on the demand side first is really interesting too.Network effect is great but its easier said than done and really hard to get it going.
Going native on the mobile and email is something we are already working on. The advice about focusing on the demand side first is really interesting too.Network effect is great but its easier said than done and really hard to get it going.
- Go true native, not hybrid
- Use ads for testing ideas
- Don't forget about email!
I'm also intrigued by your approach of not going market-by-market like a lot of local-focused marketplaces do. Your approach seems to make sense, and obviously worked for you. I particularly like that you had a different onboarding flow for users in new markets, that's smart.
But still, I'm not sure that this approach would make sense for a lot of local-focused apps? I think the fear would be that it would be relatively easy to get 100k users but they'd be spread out so thin that they'd find little utility in the app and stop using it. So you'd have 100k users in your database, but a tiny fraction of that in terms of actual active users. But maybe that doesn't even matter, since you wouldn't have had all those inactive users anyway?
Could you speak to that? I'd love to hear how many of those 100k users are DAU or MAU, but understand if you can't share that :)
Congrats!