Nintendo is removing switch emulation videos on Steam Deck from YouTube(exputer.com)
exputer.com
Nintendo is removing switch emulation videos on Steam Deck from YouTube
https://exputer.com/news/nintendo/switch-emulation-steam-deck/
305 comments
I'm all for emulating systems that don't exist anymore. But this commenter's level of naive entitlement is beyond obnoxious.
A good rule to live by is to ask "what would happen if everyone did X?" In this case, Nintendo would cease to exist. Maybe you'd be happy about this. Plenty of people wouldn't. Switches are generally available and not that expensive. If you want to play Switch games, buy one. If you don't, don't.
And failing that if you want to just steal, then just steal. But what really rubs me the wrong way is when people who have chosen to steal start moralizing their position like they're standing up for some vague rights or principles. At least be honest about it. The hyporcrisy, intellectual dishonesty, bad faith arguments and self-delusion is in many ways worse than the theft.
A good rule to live by is to ask "what would happen if everyone did X?" In this case, Nintendo would cease to exist. Maybe you'd be happy about this. Plenty of people wouldn't. Switches are generally available and not that expensive. If you want to play Switch games, buy one. If you don't, don't.
And failing that if you want to just steal, then just steal. But what really rubs me the wrong way is when people who have chosen to steal start moralizing their position like they're standing up for some vague rights or principles. At least be honest about it. The hyporcrisy, intellectual dishonesty, bad faith arguments and self-delusion is in many ways worse than the theft.
> A good rule to live by is to ask "what would happen if everyone did X?"
For example: "What would happen if all companies blocked individuals from doing what they want with the hardware they bought?" You get a hacking community and people imprisoned for the unlocked hardware they paid for. Not to mention a whole lot of ewaste that could otherwise work for years.
No, that's not a good example. How about this one: "What would happen if all companies opened up their hardware and stopped forcing people to upgrade for no reason?" Eutopia, that's what! Less ewaste. Less consumerism. People can actually use the hardware they paid for the way they want to use it.
This argument has been (ab)used since piracy has been a thing. I'm not aware of any company going under directly because of piracy, especially not just because of emulators. If there is one, I'd love to know, but even so, the numbers is negligible. Also, emulation is not the same piracy. While emulation can be used for piracy, it is not the main use case.
Corporations like Nintendo are not your friend.
For example: "What would happen if all companies blocked individuals from doing what they want with the hardware they bought?" You get a hacking community and people imprisoned for the unlocked hardware they paid for. Not to mention a whole lot of ewaste that could otherwise work for years.
No, that's not a good example. How about this one: "What would happen if all companies opened up their hardware and stopped forcing people to upgrade for no reason?" Eutopia, that's what! Less ewaste. Less consumerism. People can actually use the hardware they paid for the way they want to use it.
This argument has been (ab)used since piracy has been a thing. I'm not aware of any company going under directly because of piracy, especially not just because of emulators. If there is one, I'd love to know, but even so, the numbers is negligible. Also, emulation is not the same piracy. While emulation can be used for piracy, it is not the main use case.
Corporations like Nintendo are not your friend.
> I'm not aware of any company going under directly because of piracy
You can go further than that, there's never been a study proving that piracy is making companies lose money.
It's repeated ad-nauseam by lobbies but as far as I'm aware, it's just urban legend for now.
You can go further than that, there's never been a study proving that piracy is making companies lose money.
It's repeated ad-nauseam by lobbies but as far as I'm aware, it's just urban legend for now.
>You can go further than that, there's never been a study proving that piracy is making companies lose money.
One empirical demonstration of piracy's impact on sales (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement#Softwar...>):
>Will Wright said that Raid on Bungeling Bay sold 20,000 copies for the Commodore 64 in the US, but 800,000 cartridges for the Nintendo Famicom with a comparable installed base in Japan, "because it's a cartridge system [so] there's virtually no piracy".
One empirical demonstration of piracy's impact on sales (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement#Softwar...>):
>Will Wright said that Raid on Bungeling Bay sold 20,000 copies for the Commodore 64 in the US, but 800,000 cartridges for the Nintendo Famicom with a comparable installed base in Japan, "because it's a cartridge system [so] there's virtually no piracy".
> One empirical demonstration of piracy's impact on sales (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement#Softwar...>):
That's not a demonstration, that can be explained by the difference in hardware penetration, the quality of service provided which was much higher on consoles at the time, pricing, market differences or other factors. You had plenty of counterfeited/bootleg cartridges as well on the famicom.
I'm sure we can find more than one story from the 80s if that's really a thing.
That's not a demonstration, that can be explained by the difference in hardware penetration, the quality of service provided which was much higher on consoles at the time, pricing, market differences or other factors. You had plenty of counterfeited/bootleg cartridges as well on the famicom.
I'm sure we can find more than one story from the 80s if that's really a thing.
> I'm not aware of any company going under directly because of piracy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_Records#Bankruptcy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_Records#Bankruptcy
You need to read your own links
> Factors cited were the heavy debt incurred during its aggressive expansion in the 1990s, growing competition from mass discounters and Internet piracy.[10] Mismanagement, managerial incompetence, and crippling restrictions from the first bankruptcy deal also contributed to Tower's demise.[11]
Not just piracy to say the least.
> Factors cited were the heavy debt incurred during its aggressive expansion in the 1990s, growing competition from mass discounters and Internet piracy.[10] Mismanagement, managerial incompetence, and crippling restrictions from the first bankruptcy deal also contributed to Tower's demise.[11]
Not just piracy to say the least.
[deleted]
Piracy's impact on the digital industry is propaganda. No link has ever been established by factual data. It's just corporations' PR.
The Government Accountability Office came out in 2010 with a report that said these numbers “cannot be substantiated or traced back to an underlying data source or methodology.”
http://freakonomics.com/2012/01/12/how-much-do-music-and-mov...
The Government Accountability Office came out in 2010 with a report that said these numbers “cannot be substantiated or traced back to an underlying data source or methodology.”
http://freakonomics.com/2012/01/12/how-much-do-music-and-mov...
> A good rule to live by is to ask "what would happen if everyone did X?" In this case, Nintendo would cease to exist. Maybe you'd be happy about this. Plenty of people wouldn't. Switches are generally available and not that expensive. If you want to play Switch games, buy one. If you don't, don't
Sorry, but what is "X"? Emulation? If everyone emulated Nintendo games, we don't really know that Nintendo would cease to exist, but they probably would not cease to exist because plenty of folks who emulate Nintendo games still buy Nintendo products, because they are, you know, Nintendo fans. :)
> And failing that if you want to just steal, then just steal. But what really rubs me the wrong way is when people who have chosen to steal start moralizing their position like they're standing up for some vague rights or principles.
What really rubs me the wrong way is when commenters on HN paint people who use emulators as thieves, and emulator developers as enablers of theft, and nothing more. The irony here is that you're doing moral posturing yourself in this comment. The commenter you responded to never mentioned piracy. The article in question never mentioned piracy. So if by "X" you meant "piracy", well, nice strawman, otherwise you're equivocating emulation with piracy, which is wrong.
EDIT: By the way, a great reason to emulate Switch games is to experience them at higher resolutions and higher framerates. Thought you should know, not everyone does it to save a few bucks.
Sorry, but what is "X"? Emulation? If everyone emulated Nintendo games, we don't really know that Nintendo would cease to exist, but they probably would not cease to exist because plenty of folks who emulate Nintendo games still buy Nintendo products, because they are, you know, Nintendo fans. :)
> And failing that if you want to just steal, then just steal. But what really rubs me the wrong way is when people who have chosen to steal start moralizing their position like they're standing up for some vague rights or principles.
What really rubs me the wrong way is when commenters on HN paint people who use emulators as thieves, and emulator developers as enablers of theft, and nothing more. The irony here is that you're doing moral posturing yourself in this comment. The commenter you responded to never mentioned piracy. The article in question never mentioned piracy. So if by "X" you meant "piracy", well, nice strawman, otherwise you're equivocating emulation with piracy, which is wrong.
EDIT: By the way, a great reason to emulate Switch games is to experience them at higher resolutions and higher framerates. Thought you should know, not everyone does it to save a few bucks.
> EDIT: By the way, a great reason to emulate Switch games is to experience them at higher resolutions and higher framerates. Thought you should know, not everyone does it to save a few bucks.
So if by "X" you meant "piracy", well, nice strawman, otherwise you're equivocating emulation with piracy, which is wrong.
Related to this, accessibility, particular for retro games. I'm visually impaired, it's easier for me to emulate GB games because have you played on a GBA screen recently? Likewise, since my MS gives me twitches, the ability to do things like save scum is nice when I'm replaying NES games. I own an NES and a GB along with the games. I'm not stealing anything; I'm preventing my disability from locking me out of my own belongings.
So if by "X" you meant "piracy", well, nice strawman, otherwise you're equivocating emulation with piracy, which is wrong.
Related to this, accessibility, particular for retro games. I'm visually impaired, it's easier for me to emulate GB games because have you played on a GBA screen recently? Likewise, since my MS gives me twitches, the ability to do things like save scum is nice when I'm replaying NES games. I own an NES and a GB along with the games. I'm not stealing anything; I'm preventing my disability from locking me out of my own belongings.
You've been brainwashed, friend. There's no reason in the world _I_ should switch up (pun, heh) hardware at the pace of the manufacturer. But, that's what happens when corporations are kept unchecked. _They_ decide that every x years, I need to upgrade or decide what I use it for (violence and harm excluded). Were I able to repair it or use it however I wish, that'd not be the case.
Nintendo needs to make a better argument for their hardware if they want people to buy it. Not by dictating laws about hardware usage. Simply put, they're living in the past where different hardware and different firmware mattered.
What's next, Microsoft doesn't let me run anything other than Windows on my hardware? Wait ... https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/enable-tpm-2-0-o... https://www.microsoft.com/security/blog/2020/11/17/meet-the-...
Hey look, propaganda! Your favorite <3 Hopefully, this is a wake up call for you to read between the lines. In this case: No, Microsoft did not invent secure cloud computing.
Nintendo needs to make a better argument for their hardware if they want people to buy it. Not by dictating laws about hardware usage. Simply put, they're living in the past where different hardware and different firmware mattered.
What's next, Microsoft doesn't let me run anything other than Windows on my hardware? Wait ... https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/enable-tpm-2-0-o... https://www.microsoft.com/security/blog/2020/11/17/meet-the-...
Hey look, propaganda! Your favorite <3 Hopefully, this is a wake up call for you to read between the lines. In this case: No, Microsoft did not invent secure cloud computing.
> A good rule to live by is to ask "what would happen if everyone did X?" In this case, Nintendo would cease to exist. Maybe you'd be happy about this. Plenty of people wouldn't.
You can apply this to literally anything to make it bad.
What would happen if everyone only ever emulated pirated Switch games? Nintendo would cease to exist. What would happen if everyone just stopped buying consoles and only played games on PC? Nintendo would cease to exist, Sony and Microsoft would take a massive hit. What would happen if everyone just... stopped playing games at all, ever? The entire video game industry would die.
Does that mean I can never decide games are a waste of my time and money? Obviously not. People are different and make different decisions.
You can apply this to literally anything to make it bad.
What would happen if everyone only ever emulated pirated Switch games? Nintendo would cease to exist. What would happen if everyone just stopped buying consoles and only played games on PC? Nintendo would cease to exist, Sony and Microsoft would take a massive hit. What would happen if everyone just... stopped playing games at all, ever? The entire video game industry would die.
Does that mean I can never decide games are a waste of my time and money? Obviously not. People are different and make different decisions.
> If you want to play Switch games, buy one
And when I've done my duty and bought one, and bought the games, am I allowed to tinker then?
I see what you're driving at, but there are a great number of advantages to emulation and system hacks even for those of us that buy our games.
My PSP, when properly hacked, didn't need disks as I could store all the games I owned on a memory card or two. They loaded faster, used less battery and I didn't have to carry the damn things around. Similarly I had a PS2 with a hard drive so I could have all the games available on a menu system, and with faster load times. Same story on the Wii.
The other way around, I would play my Wii games that I had bought on Dolphin, which generally could render them at a higher resolution to target the 1080p tv I had at the time, where the Wii itself was limited to 576p. I routinely emulate the megadrive/genesis on all sorts of platforms including those hacked consoles, so I can play Sonic, which I bought many years ago.
I don't think these actions are wrong, nor do I think they hurt Sony, Sega or Nintendo, unless we're getting into the territory of "you denied them money they could have had if you re-bought everything multiple times". Sure, and I could give them 100 bucks a month direct from my paycheck, but I'm not doing that either.
And when I've done my duty and bought one, and bought the games, am I allowed to tinker then?
I see what you're driving at, but there are a great number of advantages to emulation and system hacks even for those of us that buy our games.
My PSP, when properly hacked, didn't need disks as I could store all the games I owned on a memory card or two. They loaded faster, used less battery and I didn't have to carry the damn things around. Similarly I had a PS2 with a hard drive so I could have all the games available on a menu system, and with faster load times. Same story on the Wii.
The other way around, I would play my Wii games that I had bought on Dolphin, which generally could render them at a higher resolution to target the 1080p tv I had at the time, where the Wii itself was limited to 576p. I routinely emulate the megadrive/genesis on all sorts of platforms including those hacked consoles, so I can play Sonic, which I bought many years ago.
I don't think these actions are wrong, nor do I think they hurt Sony, Sega or Nintendo, unless we're getting into the territory of "you denied them money they could have had if you re-bought everything multiple times". Sure, and I could give them 100 bucks a month direct from my paycheck, but I'm not doing that either.
> A good rule to live by is to ask "what would happen if everyone did X?"
This is an awful rule to live by. There are very few things in the world that _everyone_ would actually do.
This is an awful rule to live by. There are very few things in the world that _everyone_ would actually do.
This is a well established philosophical concept referred as Kant universality laws. It is a good rule to live by. Makes it obvious that cutting in line is immoral because lines could not exist if everybody did it.
Then at the same time, is it immoral for me to have no kids because it means the extinction of the human race? Is it immoral for me to have 3 kids because it means exponential growth, overpopulation, famine and destruction of the Earth? If we follow the logic to its end, the only moral choice is for everyone to have not 1, not 3 but exactly 2 kids.
I feel like this "law" really fails to account that not everybody on Earth is the same person and won't do the same thing because they either don't want to or can't.
Not everybody will want to use an emulator (because they want to play online, have a deckable console, or whatever other reason) or be able to get one (because they don't have a powerful enough pc). And people using emulators might make additional publicity that might bring new consumers to Nintendo products.
I feel like this "law" really fails to account that not everybody on Earth is the same person and won't do the same thing because they either don't want to or can't.
Not everybody will want to use an emulator (because they want to play online, have a deckable console, or whatever other reason) or be able to get one (because they don't have a powerful enough pc). And people using emulators might make additional publicity that might bring new consumers to Nintendo products.
I think the idea is "If everyone determined their actions as a function of the combination of their circumstances with their idiosyncratic wants, using the same function", where said function is assumed to be natural and not like, weirdly skewed around one particular person's wants.
So, like, if John really dislikes Joe, the rule saying "if you really dislike someone, punch Joe in the face" wouldn't be a rule of the appropriate sense. It doesn't make sense that if Steve really disliked Erwin, that he would punch Joe in the face as a result.
The rule that John should be considering whether he would approve of, is closer to[1] the rule "If you really dislike someone, punch them in the face." . Presumably John would find this rule less appealing than "If you really dislike someone, punch Joe in the face.", because someone might dislike John and therefore punch John in the face, and John would rather not be punched in the face.
So, in the case you gave an example of, about "whether to have children", the question would be along the lines of, "If everyone decided whether to have children (as well as how many) using the same criteria that you are using (where these criteria could include their personal tastes, aspirations, etc. as a factor), would you approve of the outcome?" This seems quite compatible with the ways that people differ.
Like, it isn't about assuming everyone behaves in the same way, but about assuming everyone responds to their desires and motivations in "the same way", for the right sense of "the same way".
[1] I won't say that this is exactly the right rule to consider. idk. Probably not quite.
So, like, if John really dislikes Joe, the rule saying "if you really dislike someone, punch Joe in the face" wouldn't be a rule of the appropriate sense. It doesn't make sense that if Steve really disliked Erwin, that he would punch Joe in the face as a result.
The rule that John should be considering whether he would approve of, is closer to[1] the rule "If you really dislike someone, punch them in the face." . Presumably John would find this rule less appealing than "If you really dislike someone, punch Joe in the face.", because someone might dislike John and therefore punch John in the face, and John would rather not be punched in the face.
So, in the case you gave an example of, about "whether to have children", the question would be along the lines of, "If everyone decided whether to have children (as well as how many) using the same criteria that you are using (where these criteria could include their personal tastes, aspirations, etc. as a factor), would you approve of the outcome?" This seems quite compatible with the ways that people differ.
Like, it isn't about assuming everyone behaves in the same way, but about assuming everyone responds to their desires and motivations in "the same way", for the right sense of "the same way".
[1] I won't say that this is exactly the right rule to consider. idk. Probably not quite.
Not sure it would necessarily be "wrong" for the human race to cease to exist if everyone in the human race didn't want to procreate.
But also remember that this is about human choices, not forced realities. The thought experiment is about what happens if everyone chooses to act in a certain way, not if everyone is a literal copy/paste automaton. To illustrate, even if everyone decided they didn't want kids, assuredly thousands/millions would still have "whoopsie" babies.
With regards to choosing to have three kids: overpopulation, famine, and destruction of Earth are not a given. Firstly (and again) because nowhere close to everyone on Earth is actually able to have three kids for a variety of reasons, and secondly because even if you did have exponential population growth you can avoid those things, mostly by colonizing space / building vertically / Dyson Sphere / etc. Unlikely but not a given so therefore hard to argue its necessarily bad.
But also remember that this is about human choices, not forced realities. The thought experiment is about what happens if everyone chooses to act in a certain way, not if everyone is a literal copy/paste automaton. To illustrate, even if everyone decided they didn't want kids, assuredly thousands/millions would still have "whoopsie" babies.
With regards to choosing to have three kids: overpopulation, famine, and destruction of Earth are not a given. Firstly (and again) because nowhere close to everyone on Earth is actually able to have three kids for a variety of reasons, and secondly because even if you did have exponential population growth you can avoid those things, mostly by colonizing space / building vertically / Dyson Sphere / etc. Unlikely but not a given so therefore hard to argue its necessarily bad.
> is it immoral for me to have no kids because it means the extinction of the human race?
Yes!
> Is it immoral for me to have 3 kids because it means exponential growth, overpopulation, famine and destruction of the Earth? If we follow the logic to its end, the only moral choice is for everyone to have not 1, not 3 but exactly 2 kids.
Limiting to 2 would cause the extinction of the human race. Some people should have 3 so that we get a sustainable level of population growth - especially people in countries where the population is declining.
(I'm not anti-emulator, I'm not even a huge fan of the categorical imperative, but this is an astonishingly weak counterargument)
Yes!
> Is it immoral for me to have 3 kids because it means exponential growth, overpopulation, famine and destruction of the Earth? If we follow the logic to its end, the only moral choice is for everyone to have not 1, not 3 but exactly 2 kids.
Limiting to 2 would cause the extinction of the human race. Some people should have 3 so that we get a sustainable level of population growth - especially people in countries where the population is declining.
(I'm not anti-emulator, I'm not even a huge fan of the categorical imperative, but this is an astonishingly weak counterargument)
>> is it immoral for me to have no kids because it means the extinction of the human race?
> Yes!
This is a flawed rule then.
> Yes!
This is a flawed rule then.
The birth rate of 1.5 children per women in Canada for example is unsustainable. Having it less than 2.0 means a lot of people are not pulling their weight in society. While there are other factors, not having children is immoral. For one, who will take care of you once you are no longer active? Our system relies on the next generation tax to pay services to elderly.
If the system requires forcing people to give birth, it's the system that is immoral.
That's what selfish people tend to say about moral principles they don't want to follow :P.
This is a weird use of the law.
There is no moral implication that you need to create kids.
There is also a number you can orientate yourself if you like to achieve a certain outcome
Nonetheless are you aware that Nintendo had quite bad numbers on and off?
It could have broken Nintendo.
There is no moral implication that you need to create kids.
There is also a number you can orientate yourself if you like to achieve a certain outcome
Nonetheless are you aware that Nintendo had quite bad numbers on and off?
It could have broken Nintendo.
Why 2? Why not just 1?
Also, leave it to HN to take some news about video game emulation to a discussion about antinatalism, haha
Also, leave it to HN to take some news about video game emulation to a discussion about antinatalism, haha
Because we don't reproduce by budding.
Also it would be 2.something not 2 exactly, because some number of people die from various causes before reproducing.
Also it would be 2.something not 2 exactly, because some number of people die from various causes before reproducing.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. Why the emphasis on having 2 children instead of 1?
Because you need 2 children to replace their 2 parents in an assumed one husband one wife household.
Of course, due to mortality we actually need more than 2. Around 2.1 - 2.4 for most developed nations IIRC.
And this doesn't hold if the household have more than one wives, say.
Of course, due to mortality we actually need more than 2. Around 2.1 - 2.4 for most developed nations IIRC.
And this doesn't hold if the household have more than one wives, say.
To be clear, I don't care about or make assumptions about relationship or family structures.
Even if every human were single and babies were made in sperm banks and creches, and every human was assigned one baby from the pool to raise, you still "have" 2 kids, in the sense that you took part in the creation of 2 kids.
I don't know how this needs to be explained to any human?
Even if every human were single and babies were made in sperm banks and creches, and every human was assigned one baby from the pool to raise, you still "have" 2 kids, in the sense that you took part in the creation of 2 kids.
I don't know how this needs to be explained to any human?
Are you suggesting that the 2 children mate with each other?
How in the world does any human old enough to know about the birds and the bees not grasp the essential math of human reproduction?
It takes 2 to replace 2. Not 1 for 1, 2 for 2.
How the ever loving F do you wind up asking about the 2 kids mating with each other? What the hell is going on in there?
It takes 2 to replace 2. Not 1 for 1, 2 for 2.
How the ever loving F do you wind up asking about the 2 kids mating with each other? What the hell is going on in there?
I was thrown off by your “replace”, replace who? Maybe you were thinking about a hypothetical perfect mathematical world that started off with a lot of couples in the 1st generation and people died after giving birth.
The context though is the current real world: It’s perfectly fine to have 1 kid or even no kids at all and just adopt existing orphans, because a lot of other people have been having way more than 2 kids for way too long.
The context though is the current real world: It’s perfectly fine to have 1 kid or even no kids at all and just adopt existing orphans, because a lot of other people have been having way more than 2 kids for way too long.
My twist on Kant's universality law is to add a "how many golf balls fit into a 747" guestimate.
Yes I think some people would cherry pick skewed numbers to justify whatever action they want, but doing it with good faith estimates is pretty helpful. Usually the answer is don't do that.
Yes I think some people would cherry pick skewed numbers to justify whatever action they want, but doing it with good faith estimates is pretty helpful. Usually the answer is don't do that.
I'm pretty sure ethics advanced at least a little since 18th century.
It's not just in deontology either. It's also fundamental to rule utilitarianism.
While true, that isn't the point of the rule. The meaning is that _if_ everyone did what you do, what _would_ happen. The practi alities of that are irrelevant. It's really about asking yourself if your actions are sustainable or damaging by scaling them up.
Perhaps, in this instance, we should be asking the more pressing question of what will happen if we allow powerful corporations to suppress knowledge that they don't like.
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I think you're taking it to literally. This is a reference to Kant's famous Categorical Imperative, and it's intended as a framework/rule which you can judge the ethicality behind a particular action. IMHO it's really one of the most beautiful and enlightening philosophical ideas out there.
The aggregation principle exists in a number of philosophical frameworks and is generally quite useful. It shouldn't be considered an absolute of course, but it is wrong to dismiss it entirely.
There is one strong argument for emulating current Nintendo (specifically Nintendo) hardware: Game and console preservation.
Nintendo has a long habit of stopping console support and games become harder or impossible to buy; waiting for a Nintendo console to reach end of life before emulating and dumping the games means that some games are going to be missed. Also, emulating currently supported consoles allows for things like archival records of system OSes to study how they changed over time. (Because in 100 years, some graduate student will study how 20th and 21st century video gaming companies handled security updates).
Nintendo has a long habit of stopping console support and games become harder or impossible to buy; waiting for a Nintendo console to reach end of life before emulating and dumping the games means that some games are going to be missed. Also, emulating currently supported consoles allows for things like archival records of system OSes to study how they changed over time. (Because in 100 years, some graduate student will study how 20th and 21st century video gaming companies handled security updates).
Emulation is both fair and legal. Stealing the games themselves of course are not.
> ask "what would happen if everyone did X?"
I think a better question would be "what if it were possible to buy 90% of Nintendo's historic catalog to play on the switch instead of less than 1%?"
I emulate because I already know the retro games I want a) cost $15-30 b) would cost that if available, are never on the eshop anyways so I don't even bother checking and c) I remember when SquareEnix android games accidentally, and carelessly, deleted everyone's saves because they arbitrarily forced offline single player games (NES/SNES final fantasy series) to be online-only cloud saves.
We're at the tail end of a decade of being shat on and in some cases Nintendo just refusing to sell us the products we want to buy.
The entitlement is not with the users in this case.
I think a better question would be "what if it were possible to buy 90% of Nintendo's historic catalog to play on the switch instead of less than 1%?"
I emulate because I already know the retro games I want a) cost $15-30 b) would cost that if available, are never on the eshop anyways so I don't even bother checking and c) I remember when SquareEnix android games accidentally, and carelessly, deleted everyone's saves because they arbitrarily forced offline single player games (NES/SNES final fantasy series) to be online-only cloud saves.
We're at the tail end of a decade of being shat on and in some cases Nintendo just refusing to sell us the products we want to buy.
The entitlement is not with the users in this case.
But that's not what happens. It never happens. No company has ever gone under as a result of everyone moving to piracy. Even during the heights of music piracy (emule, grooveshark, limewire, napster), this industry posted record profits every year. People pirate because they otherwise can't access it, or your product isn't worth the money to them.
That's a very nice strawman you're putting in the middle of that field. I can do the same too. What if everyone in the video game industry opened its games to mods and gave out tools? An unbelievable breadth of quality content and a new generation of excellent designers. What if everyone stopped buying video games because we now all own rubles? What if we all became blue?
Is piracy selfish? Yeah. I'll be the first one to admit it. I pirate it because I don't want to pay for it, or I can't. Is piracy wrong? No. Data wants to be free, and we collectively thrive when ideas, plays, music, creations of the mind flows freely. And if it causes a company to make a tiny bit less on the billions it makes, I won't be crying for them.
That's a very nice strawman you're putting in the middle of that field. I can do the same too. What if everyone in the video game industry opened its games to mods and gave out tools? An unbelievable breadth of quality content and a new generation of excellent designers. What if everyone stopped buying video games because we now all own rubles? What if we all became blue?
Is piracy selfish? Yeah. I'll be the first one to admit it. I pirate it because I don't want to pay for it, or I can't. Is piracy wrong? No. Data wants to be free, and we collectively thrive when ideas, plays, music, creations of the mind flows freely. And if it causes a company to make a tiny bit less on the billions it makes, I won't be crying for them.
> If you want to play Switch games, buy one. If you don't, don't.
+1 I like hacking and tinkering with tech but these should not be socialized solutions for the masses. They are fun hobby projects, if you want the thing go buy it. The money supports the thing and is the reason it exists.
+1 I like hacking and tinkering with tech but these should not be socialized solutions for the masses. They are fun hobby projects, if you want the thing go buy it. The money supports the thing and is the reason it exists.
> In this case, Nintendo would cease to exist
The same argument used to say pirated music would kill music. I hope you realize how ridiculous it is.
The same argument used to say pirated music would kill music. I hope you realize how ridiculous it is.
> The same argument used to say pirated music would kill music.
Yes, because it was true then too. Well, mostly true. There are big differences between music and video games. For example, the vast majority of artists can't support themselves based on the sale of recorded music. Most support themselves through performances. Additionally, there is a lot licensing of music to movies, TV and advertising.
But yes if no one paid for music it's quite likely that the industry would cease to be.
None of this applies to video games.
But I don't care if you pirate music (I did, at least before Spotify made it too convenient not to bother, which is a whole separate lesson). I also don't particularly care if you want to emulate Switch games. What I find distasteful is dressing up this selfishness as somehow being moral or just. You're not a principled crusader standing up for freedom. You're just a guy who doesn't want to pay for something.
Yes, because it was true then too. Well, mostly true. There are big differences between music and video games. For example, the vast majority of artists can't support themselves based on the sale of recorded music. Most support themselves through performances. Additionally, there is a lot licensing of music to movies, TV and advertising.
But yes if no one paid for music it's quite likely that the industry would cease to be.
None of this applies to video games.
But I don't care if you pirate music (I did, at least before Spotify made it too convenient not to bother, which is a whole separate lesson). I also don't particularly care if you want to emulate Switch games. What I find distasteful is dressing up this selfishness as somehow being moral or just. You're not a principled crusader standing up for freedom. You're just a guy who doesn't want to pay for something.
> What I find distasteful is dressing up this selfishness as somehow being moral or just.
You don't get to define what is everyone's view of morality.
Do you find it moral that copyright holders can keep charging forever for the same goods AND enjoy state protection at the same time? Piracy is what limits this behavior from becoming too extreme. Remove piracy, and you will see the most outrageous corporate behaviors in action in no time.
Checks and balances - that's the name of the game.
You don't get to define what is everyone's view of morality.
Do you find it moral that copyright holders can keep charging forever for the same goods AND enjoy state protection at the same time? Piracy is what limits this behavior from becoming too extreme. Remove piracy, and you will see the most outrageous corporate behaviors in action in no time.
Checks and balances - that's the name of the game.
Nobody is stealing anything, Nintendo still controls the same assets they had before somebody installed an emulator.
There's a difference between pirating games and making videos about how to install and use emulators. Btw, emulating games isn't piracy if you have a legit copy. There are valid reasons to do so besides piracy. For example, you can play BotW with mods on emulator, which you can't on Switch.
I think you're getting emulation and piracy a little bit muddled, which to be fair is a common reaction.
An emulator is just an API-compatible device. It is legal to make and sell an emulator. It can be used for playing legit and pirated copies of games, just as the original console can. It's a healthy form of competition (like between PC manufacturers), resulting in better performing hardware for the consumer.
The comment you're replying to doesn't mention or defend piracy. They're only saying Nintendo's Switch hardware is lacking so people are searching for a better performing alternative, and Nintendo is using anti-competitive legal trickery to suppress alternatives, instead of improving their product.
An emulator is just an API-compatible device. It is legal to make and sell an emulator. It can be used for playing legit and pirated copies of games, just as the original console can. It's a healthy form of competition (like between PC manufacturers), resulting in better performing hardware for the consumer.
The comment you're replying to doesn't mention or defend piracy. They're only saying Nintendo's Switch hardware is lacking so people are searching for a better performing alternative, and Nintendo is using anti-competitive legal trickery to suppress alternatives, instead of improving their product.
the idea that emulation on a 600 dollar portable computer for sweaty linux tinkerers is an existential threat to nintendo's 300 dollar handheld for children and adult children is laughable.
> "what would happen if everyone did X?"
I don't understand when this rule should/should not be used. Clearly, the rule breaks down in certain situations.
For example: What if everyone decided to go into tech? That's not really good for society since we need things like doctors, but some people do need to go into tech.
I don't understand when this rule should/should not be used. Clearly, the rule breaks down in certain situations.
For example: What if everyone decided to go into tech? That's not really good for society since we need things like doctors, but some people do need to go into tech.
> But what really rubs me the wrong way is when people who have chosen to steal start moralizing their position like they're standing up for some vague rights or principles
I feel like these are the same people that haven't learned how to shut up in highschool
I feel like these are the same people that haven't learned how to shut up in highschool
They would not stop to exist if they just sole the roms themselves.
> In this case, Nintendo would cease to exist.
Nintendo's hardware business would cease to exist, and the world would have a little less e-waste in it. How would that be a bad thing?
Nintendo's hardware business would cease to exist, and the world would have a little less e-waste in it. How would that be a bad thing?
Nintendo's hardware division is undoubtedly having a positive impact on the industry at large. I would argue that the Steam Deck would not exist without the Switch. There have been other mobile consoles in the same form factor (most obviously the PSP and PS Vita), but by the mid-2010s, smartphones had cannibalized that form factor significantly (even Nintendo's 3DS line had 50% lower lifetime sales than the original DS line in the 2000s). If it weren't for the Switch innovating in this form factor, I doubt that the mobile console form factor would exist at all today (except maybe for those shells where you plop your phone into to get a D-pad for your mobile game).
If we want to cut down on e-waste, we should rather lengthen the smartphone replacement cycle. That's a better impact just because of sheer numbers. Lobby for replaceable-battery mandates in smartphones and a minimum duration for security updates of 5 years or even 10 years.
If we want to cut down on e-waste, we should rather lengthen the smartphone replacement cycle. That's a better impact just because of sheer numbers. Lobby for replaceable-battery mandates in smartphones and a minimum duration for security updates of 5 years or even 10 years.
> If it weren't for the Switch innovating in this form factor, I doubt that the mobile console form factor would exist at all today (except maybe for those shells where you plop your phone into to get a D-pad for your mobile game).
How is a Switch materially different from a laptop, or a tablet with a controller strapped on to it?
> If we want to cut down on e-waste, we should rather lengthen the smartphone replacement cycle. That's a better impact just because of sheer numbers. Lobby for replaceable-battery mandates in smartphones and a minimum duration for security updates of 5 years or even 10 years.
Why not both? Disposable devices are bad, needing duplicate devices in the same form factor is bad, DRM is bad (especially when it's locking down how you can use or repair your own hardware). Tackling one doesn't prevent anyone from tackling the rest. We need to fix all of them
How is a Switch materially different from a laptop, or a tablet with a controller strapped on to it?
> If we want to cut down on e-waste, we should rather lengthen the smartphone replacement cycle. That's a better impact just because of sheer numbers. Lobby for replaceable-battery mandates in smartphones and a minimum duration for security updates of 5 years or even 10 years.
Why not both? Disposable devices are bad, needing duplicate devices in the same form factor is bad, DRM is bad (especially when it's locking down how you can use or repair your own hardware). Tackling one doesn't prevent anyone from tackling the rest. We need to fix all of them
If nobody bought Switches and nobody bought Switch games because they just grabbed a ROM off the net wouldn't their software business also die?
Nothing's preventing Nintendo from releasing their games on PC, aside from their own stubborn refusal to do so.
They don't even need to stop releasing their own accessories when they have a legitimate reason to do so. The Wiimote could have just been a Bluetooth gamepad and a LED strip. In fact, that's exactly what it was!
They don't even need to stop releasing their own accessories when they have a legitimate reason to do so. The Wiimote could have just been a Bluetooth gamepad and a LED strip. In fact, that's exactly what it was!
this is what irks me the most, piracy is stealing and even its name says it.
If you steal then thats your problem, but its wrong morally and is gross to do without reasons.
If you steal then thats your problem, but its wrong morally and is gross to do without reasons.
If you're sailing along then a pirate makes a perfect copy of the cargo in your hold and bids you good day, did they steal anything?
> A good rule to live by is to ask "what would happen if everyone did X?" In this case, Nintendo would cease to exist.
Like PC game studios ceased to exist?
Like PC game studios ceased to exist?
They kinda did? We now have lots of console-exclusive games precisely because of PC piracy.
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People think theft is liberation, which is… a problematic notion. “Everybody should have rights to enjoy / read…”
> Brand exclusives and a low console price are all it's got
A lower price and better games is quite a lot actually.
A lower price and better games is quite a lot actually.
Switch has an e-shop with expensive games that will eventually get offlined within a couple generations like the ones before it vs. Steam, an e-shop with every game, for cheaper, including all the games people bought over the last two decades.
I can imagine how disruptive a successful Steam entry into the console space could be once people realize they are tired of "renting" $60 games from ad-hoc console e-shops.
I can imagine how disruptive a successful Steam entry into the console space could be once people realize they are tired of "renting" $60 games from ad-hoc console e-shops.
I have to disagree hard on this. Nintendo was on the forefront of making old games playable on the new hardware. On the switch you can play many old SNES and N64 classics included in the Nintendo online subscription at ~2-4€ a month.
They re-released childhood favorites like Zelda Ocarina of Times and Super Mario 64 on the 3DS and I actually bought the 3DS (in a special Zelda variant no less) just for that and Majora's Mask. I had a blast.
In comparison Steam and PC in general was late to the party of remastering old games or even just keeping them playable. Getting old Win 98 or even some XP titles running is often a challenge and sometimes borderline impossible.
They re-released childhood favorites like Zelda Ocarina of Times and Super Mario 64 on the 3DS and I actually bought the 3DS (in a special Zelda variant no less) just for that and Majora's Mask. I had a blast.
In comparison Steam and PC in general was late to the party of remastering old games or even just keeping them playable. Getting old Win 98 or even some XP titles running is often a challenge and sometimes borderline impossible.
I love the Switch and I'm a big fan of many Nintendo franchises but Nintendo has a habit of screwing over honest customers, especially early adopters, and their retro efforts are a good example of that:
People who purchased games on the original Wii Virtual Console had to pay per-game fees to upgrade to native Wii U versions. As if that wasn't cheeky enough the Wii U NES emulation was terrible. Bad colors and serious input lag. Instead of fixing it for those customers who already paid (sometimes twice) for those games, Nintendo released the NES Classic which had a much better emulator… but only if you paid again.
(There also wasn't cross-buy/play between Virtual Console 3DS and Wii U, as opposed to e.g. Sony's PS3 and Vita's PS1 support.)
Then came the Switch with Nintendo Switch Online. Putting aside subscription vs. purchasing, the experience is great. But all those Virtual Console games you have? Can't play them. Pay again.
Remaster are cool but the way Nintendo approaches them is another example of how early adopters get the short end, with Wii U games getting re-releases on Switch (great) with additional content like Bowser's Fury (also great) but without making that content available as DLC to people who already paid full price for the original versions.
(By the way, those NSO N64 games aren't part of the basic subscription)
People who purchased games on the original Wii Virtual Console had to pay per-game fees to upgrade to native Wii U versions. As if that wasn't cheeky enough the Wii U NES emulation was terrible. Bad colors and serious input lag. Instead of fixing it for those customers who already paid (sometimes twice) for those games, Nintendo released the NES Classic which had a much better emulator… but only if you paid again.
(There also wasn't cross-buy/play between Virtual Console 3DS and Wii U, as opposed to e.g. Sony's PS3 and Vita's PS1 support.)
Then came the Switch with Nintendo Switch Online. Putting aside subscription vs. purchasing, the experience is great. But all those Virtual Console games you have? Can't play them. Pay again.
Remaster are cool but the way Nintendo approaches them is another example of how early adopters get the short end, with Wii U games getting re-releases on Switch (great) with additional content like Bowser's Fury (also great) but without making that content available as DLC to people who already paid full price for the original versions.
(By the way, those NSO N64 games aren't part of the basic subscription)
> People who purchased games on the original Wii Virtual Console had to pay per-game fees to upgrade to native Wii U versions. As if that wasn't cheeky enough the Wii U NES emulation was terrible. Bad colors and serious input lag. Instead of fixing it for those customers who already paid (sometimes twice) for those games, Nintendo released the NES Classic which had a much better emulator… but only if you paid again.
I'm definitely not going to defend how bad the Wii U emulators were, but asking users to pay for a new emulator doesn't seem so unreasonable to me. Developing an emulator takes work. If you don't want to use the new emulator, play the game in Wii mode.
Yes, paying for the emulator on a per-game basis is weird, but any other model would be prohibitively difficult for consumers to understand.
> Remaster are cool but the way Nintendo approaches them is another example of how early adopters get the short end, with Wii U games getting re-releases on Switch (great) with additional content like Bowser's Fury (also great) but without making that content available as DLC to people who already paid full price for the original versions.
But again, Nintendo had to port the game to the Switch, so I think it's reasonable to charge for that. And while they certainly could have instituted some sort of upgrade pricing model, it would have quickly become prohibitively complicated, particularly when you start considering retail versions of the game.
My feeling is, I paid $60 for Mario 3D World in 2013 because it was worth (more than) $60. I already played it and got my money's worth. The Switch version doesn't have enough new content for me to justify paying another $60, but for anyone who never owned a Wii U, it's a great deal and I'm happy for them.
Games (particularly non-Nintendo games) often become much cheaper if you don't mind waiting a few years, if not less.
I'm definitely not going to defend how bad the Wii U emulators were, but asking users to pay for a new emulator doesn't seem so unreasonable to me. Developing an emulator takes work. If you don't want to use the new emulator, play the game in Wii mode.
Yes, paying for the emulator on a per-game basis is weird, but any other model would be prohibitively difficult for consumers to understand.
> Remaster are cool but the way Nintendo approaches them is another example of how early adopters get the short end, with Wii U games getting re-releases on Switch (great) with additional content like Bowser's Fury (also great) but without making that content available as DLC to people who already paid full price for the original versions.
But again, Nintendo had to port the game to the Switch, so I think it's reasonable to charge for that. And while they certainly could have instituted some sort of upgrade pricing model, it would have quickly become prohibitively complicated, particularly when you start considering retail versions of the game.
My feeling is, I paid $60 for Mario 3D World in 2013 because it was worth (more than) $60. I already played it and got my money's worth. The Switch version doesn't have enough new content for me to justify paying another $60, but for anyone who never owned a Wii U, it's a great deal and I'm happy for them.
Games (particularly non-Nintendo games) often become much cheaper if you don't mind waiting a few years, if not less.
>I'm definitely not going to defend how bad the Wii U emulators were, but asking users to pay for a new emulator doesn't seem so unreasonable to me. Developing an emulator takes work.
They are hard work, but fans working for free have consistently done a better job than Nintendo themselves at writing emulators in all respects: added features, performance, input latency, accuracy, and compatibility.
They are hard work, but fans working for free have consistently done a better job than Nintendo themselves at writing emulators in all respects: added features, performance, input latency, accuracy, and compatibility.
Many would argue that Linux is a better experience than Windows, but I don't have a problem with Microsoft charging for Windows.
I will also say that within a constrained console environment, I do think Nintendo's VC emulators are more reliable than Homebrew ones.
I will also say that within a constrained console environment, I do think Nintendo's VC emulators are more reliable than Homebrew ones.
> Yes, paying for the emulator on a per-game basis is weird, but any other model would be prohibitively difficult for consumers to understand.
Nonsense, it's just an excuse to nickle-and-dime customers. Compare this to the effort Microsoft has gone through to make old Xbox games work on modern consoles, or how all digital PSP games just worked on your PS Vita.
The Wii U upgrade wasn't even that big of a deal compared to the Switch now. They've brought NES, SNES and N64 emulators to the Switch but none of those games you already paid for (twice) carry over.
It's not just about having to pay a bit, it's about what it means to digitally purchase anything from Nintendo.
> The Switch version doesn't have enough new content for me to justify paying another $60, but for anyone who never owned a Wii U, it's a great deal and I'm happy for them.
This was my point though - if you already paid that $60 and got that great game, there's no way to play the new content without playing it again.
Nonsense, it's just an excuse to nickle-and-dime customers. Compare this to the effort Microsoft has gone through to make old Xbox games work on modern consoles, or how all digital PSP games just worked on your PS Vita.
The Wii U upgrade wasn't even that big of a deal compared to the Switch now. They've brought NES, SNES and N64 emulators to the Switch but none of those games you already paid for (twice) carry over.
It's not just about having to pay a bit, it's about what it means to digitally purchase anything from Nintendo.
> The Switch version doesn't have enough new content for me to justify paying another $60, but for anyone who never owned a Wii U, it's a great deal and I'm happy for them.
This was my point though - if you already paid that $60 and got that great game, there's no way to play the new content without playing it again.
You have to pay extra for the N64 titles. And just a reminder that they've yet to have their retro game collection on the Switch reach half of the games that were available on their Wii Virtual Console service, which ended with approx. 400 games, including some from Sega and SNK consoles.
Most of the titles also ran better and had lower input latency than what's available on the Switch.
The service was completely discontinued in 2019 with no way of transferring the titles over to the Switch or having the proof of purchase even linked to your account. In terms of preserving their old titles Nintendo is awful, they'd rather continually rerelease the popular ones and have you pay yet again for the (temporary) access.
Most of the titles also ran better and had lower input latency than what's available on the Switch.
The service was completely discontinued in 2019 with no way of transferring the titles over to the Switch or having the proof of purchase even linked to your account. In terms of preserving their old titles Nintendo is awful, they'd rather continually rerelease the popular ones and have you pay yet again for the (temporary) access.
"Was" in an operative word. Nintendo was selling N64 games virtually on the Wii in 2007. They have yet to improve on that offering.
The closest they got was Super Mario 3D All-Stars that included emulation of a GameCube (Mario Sunshine) and a Wii (Mario Galaxy) game, but Nintendo being Nintendo, it was on the e-shop for a limited time and a limited manufacturing run for physical release. Two console generations after the Wii, the most Nintendo can muster is bringing back Nintendo 64 games to their current console, 5 years after the console's release. It's pathetic.
The closest they got was Super Mario 3D All-Stars that included emulation of a GameCube (Mario Sunshine) and a Wii (Mario Galaxy) game, but Nintendo being Nintendo, it was on the e-shop for a limited time and a limited manufacturing run for physical release. Two console generations after the Wii, the most Nintendo can muster is bringing back Nintendo 64 games to their current console, 5 years after the console's release. It's pathetic.
GoG (2008, the wii was 2006) is probably at the forefront of old games that just work on modern hardware, though there is some occasional hiccups. I think the oldest title is from 1980.
For nintendo NES/SNES is if you have the basic subscription, n64 and genesis is an upcharge.
https://www.nintendo.com/whatsnew/detail/2021/what-you-need-...
For nintendo NES/SNES is if you have the basic subscription, n64 and genesis is an upcharge.
https://www.nintendo.com/whatsnew/detail/2021/what-you-need-...
They sell the old games, they are not free. All of there games are overpriced and never go on sale, probably because it seems like they only have a handful of games.
I don’t think it’s fair to say valve is late to the party, if anything they are first. There is a distinct difference between consoles games and pc games, the steam deck focuses on bringing pc games to a portable format, that opens the door to an almost endless supply of cheap indie games, as well as the potential for large AAA titles like Assassins Creed. The best part? Unlike Nintendo or PlayStation you don’t have to buy the game again if it’s already in your steam library, outside of Xbox play anywhere it’s the first time players don’t have to repurchase a game in order to play it on a portable device.
I don’t think it’s fair to say valve is late to the party, if anything they are first. There is a distinct difference between consoles games and pc games, the steam deck focuses on bringing pc games to a portable format, that opens the door to an almost endless supply of cheap indie games, as well as the potential for large AAA titles like Assassins Creed. The best part? Unlike Nintendo or PlayStation you don’t have to buy the game again if it’s already in your steam library, outside of Xbox play anywhere it’s the first time players don’t have to repurchase a game in order to play it on a portable device.
> outside of Xbox play anywhere it’s the first time players don’t have to repurchase a game in order to play it on a portable device.
I agree that's a nice perk and I also regularly pay more to have my games in Steam rather than somewhere else, because it usually just works and keeps on working with Steam era games. My issues were mostly with pre-online era games where I still owned the actual CD.
It would've been nice if I could just play my old N64 games for free, but I also didn't feel cheated that I had to pay for the ported versions again.
I agree that's a nice perk and I also regularly pay more to have my games in Steam rather than somewhere else, because it usually just works and keeps on working with Steam era games. My issues were mostly with pre-online era games where I still owned the actual CD.
It would've been nice if I could just play my old N64 games for free, but I also didn't feel cheated that I had to pay for the ported versions again.
>All of there games are overpriced and never go on sale
If whole generations of gamers will buy them regardless, why should they change it?
Even after shitting hard on their customers, gamers are still voting Nintendo with their wallets.
If whole generations of gamers will buy them regardless, why should they change it?
Even after shitting hard on their customers, gamers are still voting Nintendo with their wallets.
If you have to pay a subscription and that's the only way to play the classics there.. that's not free
Well that's why I said "or". I'm honestly not sure, I never tried to play them while not having a subscription. The subscription at 20€/year is much cheaper than what Microsoft or Playstation are offering though.
Edit: I looked it up, it requires the subscription and updated my comment accordingly.
Edit: I looked it up, it requires the subscription and updated my comment accordingly.
:thumbsup: No worries.. I just get tired of the arguement that "well you get these things for free if you put yourself through a subscription" (That same arguement exists on the PSN and their "free games")
Forefront? It's nice but I'm glad I didn't wait 15-20 years for Nintendo to play SNES games officially.
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Anything downloaded from the Switch e-shop will continue to work locally on that Switch, and all the mainstream games can be bought as a cartridge if desired. It's not fundamentally different than dragging out my old N64 to play my old games from the 90s. I don't consider that "renting", and I can't remember the last time I had the desire to play one of my decade+ old games anyway. Very few of them aged well compared to their modern versions.
I'm sure there are some people out there that are passionate about this but I can't imagine it being anything more than a small minority of video game buyers. There are certainly other ways the Steam Deck could be disruptive though.
I'm sure there are some people out there that are passionate about this but I can't imagine it being anything more than a small minority of video game buyers. There are certainly other ways the Steam Deck could be disruptive though.
Not being fundamentally different to the N64 purchase model from 1996 is the problem!
And in fact it’s actually worse given that many titles are available digital only.
And in fact it’s actually worse given that many titles are available digital only.
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The steam deck exists and seems like pretty much this! I have been very impressed with what I have seen about it.
But I am probably still going to buy breath of the wild 2, so I still need a switch...
But I am probably still going to buy breath of the wild 2, so I still need a switch...
Given how well the original BotW emulates, probably not
It sure is, but the cost of ownership if the Switch is higher than that of the Steam deck. Games on Steam are cheap and plentiful.
The quality requirements of the Nintendo's storefront are ridiculously low. I've seen footage of the Switch WWE game and frankly it should never have been allowed into any store front, let alone the one people expect to be better.
There are plenty of platformers out there, but only one company can use Mario. The games on the Switch are pricey, but the console is affordable, making it excellent for multiplayer gaming.
I don't think it has a lower price and better games in practice. They did manage to corner the portable gaming space with their 3DS and Switch, which all major competitors abandoned. Now they're at risk of losing that too.
The quality requirements of the Nintendo's storefront are ridiculously low. I've seen footage of the Switch WWE game and frankly it should never have been allowed into any store front, let alone the one people expect to be better.
There are plenty of platformers out there, but only one company can use Mario. The games on the Switch are pricey, but the console is affordable, making it excellent for multiplayer gaming.
I don't think it has a lower price and better games in practice. They did manage to corner the portable gaming space with their 3DS and Switch, which all major competitors abandoned. Now they're at risk of losing that too.
I think you're comparing Apples with Oranges when you mention the price of Switch games.
Sure, a three year-old Pokemon game might still cost $40, but you have a cartridge you can resell and get almost all of that money back (or even more, if you're happy to wait a few years). With Steam, every dollar you spend is gone forever.
Sure, a three year-old Pokemon game might still cost $40, but you have a cartridge you can resell and get almost all of that money back (or even more, if you're happy to wait a few years). With Steam, every dollar you spend is gone forever.
For the games that have cartridges, sure. When I bought a "physical copy" of Puyo Puyo Tetris, I thought it would be a cartridge but it was just a code to redeem inside a case. Waste of plastic if you ask me.
Respectfully, if you read the box it's pretty clear what you're getting.
What annoys me more are cartridges that (literally) require an additional online download. But even then, game covers are pretty clear about the requirement. I avoid those games.
What annoys me more are cartridges that (literally) require an additional online download. But even then, game covers are pretty clear about the requirement. I avoid those games.
>Respectfully, if you read the box it's pretty clear what you're getting.
I think their complaint is actually valid in these instances. You're paying top dollar and only getting a digital code. Pretty raw deal, if you ask me.
I think their complaint is actually valid in these instances. You're paying top dollar and only getting a digital code. Pretty raw deal, if you ask me.
They're useful for kids who don't have easy access to a credit card. I personally don't think retailers are trying to trick anyone. How would you suggest they be more transparent?
It makes you able to resale!
Agreed, I had hoped Nintendo would have some quality standards, but the shovelware seems even worse than it was on the Wii. Perhaps that's because I have all those shovelware titles at my fingertips now vs having to go to a store to find Wii games (I never used the online functionality of the Wii), but in any case, it feels overwhelming.
Not that Steam is a bastion of quality (or necessarily has a better ratio of decent:shovelware titles), but by the numbers, it definitely takes the crown for quantity of decent titles (if for no other reason than it having been around much longer).
Not that Steam is a bastion of quality (or necessarily has a better ratio of decent:shovelware titles), but by the numbers, it definitely takes the crown for quantity of decent titles (if for no other reason than it having been around much longer).
> The quality requirements of the Nintendo's storefront are ridiculously low. I've seen footage of the Switch WWE game and frankly it should never have been allowed into any store front
Doesn't even look that bad to me compared to what Sony accepts, ranging from "life of black tiger" to Cyberpunk 2077's PS4 release.
Doesn't even look that bad to me compared to what Sony accepts, ranging from "life of black tiger" to Cyberpunk 2077's PS4 release.
Are all games the same to you? The Switch offers unique, and not so unique, games. Which they sell at a price of their choosing.
> A lower price and better games is quite a lot actually.
Lower price, yes, but better games? Different games, sure but I wouldn't call them better given that it can run almost everything a windows PC can.
Lower price, yes, but better games? Different games, sure but I wouldn't call them better given that it can run almost everything a windows PC can.
Yes, better games. Nintendo first party titles from their Zelda, Mario and Mario Kart franchises are consistently among the best games for their time period with some of the biggest appeal across the gamer spectrums. If I could choose only one system it would be the switch easily. If only it had Valheim on it I would never put it down.
It depends on what part of those franchises you're focused on. The most recent entry of each favors switch, everything older mostly favors the steam deck.
This really depends upon what you enjoy. I prefer strategy games and I would take exclusively Paradox games over all the games on the switch combined, nevermind everything else I can find on steam.
You get Nintendo first party games, considered by millions to be among the best video games.
I have a switch mainly for Nintendo titles.
I have a switch mainly for Nintendo titles.
By the way why was the comment downvoted? I (probably mistakenly) believed that hackernews was more mature than reddit (or other similar sites). Good faith questions... should be treated as such, I thought?
Who's saying better games? Exclusivity != quality.
I mean, of course Nintendo would hate piracy. You might say emulation can be used with legit roms, or roms for games you’ve purchased, but let’s be honest.
The fact Nintendo even exists at all in the face of competitors orders of magnitude bigger is impressive.
Nintendo’s position is and always will be that you can only play their games on their platforms.
The fact Nintendo even exists at all in the face of competitors orders of magnitude bigger is impressive.
Nintendo’s position is and always will be that you can only play their games on their platforms.
> You might say emulation can be used with legit roms, or roms for games you’ve purchased, but let’s be honest.
I have an actual physical NES, SNES, Genesis, N64, Gamecube, and Wii, along with games. The NES and SNES don't reliably run games anymore. I expect the others to eventually follow. And emulation provides better graphics, better features, portability (e.g. playing on a device you can travel with), creativity (romhacks, translations, etc). So yes, emulation can be used with games you actually own, and doing so has great advantages.
I have an actual physical NES, SNES, Genesis, N64, Gamecube, and Wii, along with games. The NES and SNES don't reliably run games anymore. I expect the others to eventually follow. And emulation provides better graphics, better features, portability (e.g. playing on a device you can travel with), creativity (romhacks, translations, etc). So yes, emulation can be used with games you actually own, and doing so has great advantages.
> So yes, emulation can be used with games you actually own, and doing so has great advantages.
I'm not denying that is one use case, what I'm saying is that it's very unlikely it's the regular one.
Nintendo's argument is basically that even if that were true, just because you purchased it once doesn't give you the right to it indefinitely. You might disagree with that, but that's their stance (when you buy e-Shop games you don't even get access across Nintendo consoles).
I'm not denying that is one use case, what I'm saying is that it's very unlikely it's the regular one.
Nintendo's argument is basically that even if that were true, just because you purchased it once doesn't give you the right to it indefinitely. You might disagree with that, but that's their stance (when you buy e-Shop games you don't even get access across Nintendo consoles).
> just because you purchased it once doesn't give you the right to it indefinitely
Did I buy it or rent it? If I bought it then I damn well do have the right to it indefinitely.
Did I buy it or rent it? If I bought it then I damn well do have the right to it indefinitely.
One might say that you bought a license to a game. And that license includes only being run from the physical copy you received.
Nintendo is only getting worse with this over time.
Just see for example the Breath of the Wild DLC... No physical copy to be obtained, forever bound to your nintendo account.
> One might say that you bought a license to a game
One might claim that, and that claim should be rejected.
One might claim that, and that claim should be rejected.
Isn’t this how the market works? You don’t own the game - you own the game on the platform, for as long as it lasts. This is the base rule for console games. You kinda know the deal when you buy it.
Multiple court cases have established that emulation is legal, and that emulators are "transformative". "This innovation affords opportunities for game play in new environments".
> This is the base rule for console games.
Really not well established, no. You may "know the deal" but the idea that your ownership is time limited by the life of the platform is unlikely to hold up well in a legal setting, IMHO.
Really not well established, no. You may "know the deal" but the idea that your ownership is time limited by the life of the platform is unlikely to hold up well in a legal setting, IMHO.
Old hardware is often repairable/refurbish-able though.
Is it difficult to notice that you're in the minority here?
It's not acceptable to prohibit a use case because some people are using it for illicit purposes, assuming that all aren't.
Game producers would like to claim that all such uses are fundamentally illicit. The point of my comment was to reject that claim, not to claim that the majority of users are licit.
(There's a separate argument that I'd also make that all such uses should be entirely accepted, but that's an orthogonal argument that I'm not making here.)
Game producers would like to claim that all such uses are fundamentally illicit. The point of my comment was to reject that claim, not to claim that the majority of users are licit.
(There's a separate argument that I'd also make that all such uses should be entirely accepted, but that's an orthogonal argument that I'm not making here.)
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> It's not acceptable to prohibit a use case because some people are using it for illicit purposes, assuming that all aren't.
Sure it is. Try extending this argument to every other kind of business. Most shops, for example, don’t let you take whatever you want off the shelves and promise to mail them a check later. Even if many people would be honest, enough wouldn’t that it would make their business unsustainable (or at least substantially less profitable). Therefore, they almost universally prohibit this.
That’s just one example among many. The logical conclusion of your argument is that it’s unacceptable for any business not to extend unlimited trust to all their customers unconditionally.
Sure it is. Try extending this argument to every other kind of business. Most shops, for example, don’t let you take whatever you want off the shelves and promise to mail them a check later. Even if many people would be honest, enough wouldn’t that it would make their business unsustainable (or at least substantially less profitable). Therefore, they almost universally prohibit this.
That’s just one example among many. The logical conclusion of your argument is that it’s unacceptable for any business not to extend unlimited trust to all their customers unconditionally.
You don't own the stuff on the shelves though?
I agree that games that has been commercially available sometime in the last year shouldn't be pirated (and I'm not sure at what point in time after the last time it was commercially available that it becomes permissible, and so I haven't pirated any games, unless you count an unreleased in-progress demo of a game that got discovered, and which I have a physical copy of what the game eventually became).
But my hardware is mine. I can do what I want with it.
I agree that games that has been commercially available sometime in the last year shouldn't be pirated (and I'm not sure at what point in time after the last time it was commercially available that it becomes permissible, and so I haven't pirated any games, unless you count an unreleased in-progress demo of a game that got discovered, and which I have a physical copy of what the game eventually became).
But my hardware is mine. I can do what I want with it.
Why is it not acceptable if a machine is not being used for its intended purposes and most people using it are for pirating games?
Why is there any notion of acceptability for a company’s rulings on how their copyrights should be protected?
Why is there any notion of acceptability for a company’s rulings on how their copyrights should be protected?
> Why is there any notion of acceptability for a company’s rulings on how their copyrights should be protected?
From a legal perspective, there's not, companies can attack copyright infringement even if they don't do it in a moral or acceptable way.
However, from a legal perspective, emulators don't violate copyright and neither do videos teaching people how to use them. So if we want to talk about the acceptability of Nintendo claiming copyright on emulator videos, and if we want talk about the morality of emulating systems that are current-gen, and if we want to talk about the "typical use case" of emulation, then we're not really talking about laws anymore. In the context of those questions, it is valid to talk about whether or not a company's motivations are "acceptable", because we're not talking about legality.
The law is already settled on this point, building and distributing emulators is legal activity, even for current-generation systems. Social convention/responsibility are the only things people can debate about emulators. And legally speaking, at least a portion of these videos are probably fine (of course, Nintendo is unlikely to be called out on this because nobody wants to get sued even wrongfully over a Youtube video). We can debate whether or not they're responsible to make and post online, and we can debate whether or not they contribute to piracy, but legally they're probably not copyright infringement.
Nintendo is under no legal obligation to wield its copyright acceptably or responsibly, but also people who build emulators are under no legal obligation to make sure that no one pirates Nintendo games. I don't like how these conversations often get framed in a way where Nintendo is judged only on its legal obligations, but people who build and talk about emulators are judged on subjective social responsibilities that have nothing to do with the law.
From a legal perspective, there's not, companies can attack copyright infringement even if they don't do it in a moral or acceptable way.
However, from a legal perspective, emulators don't violate copyright and neither do videos teaching people how to use them. So if we want to talk about the acceptability of Nintendo claiming copyright on emulator videos, and if we want talk about the morality of emulating systems that are current-gen, and if we want to talk about the "typical use case" of emulation, then we're not really talking about laws anymore. In the context of those questions, it is valid to talk about whether or not a company's motivations are "acceptable", because we're not talking about legality.
The law is already settled on this point, building and distributing emulators is legal activity, even for current-generation systems. Social convention/responsibility are the only things people can debate about emulators. And legally speaking, at least a portion of these videos are probably fine (of course, Nintendo is unlikely to be called out on this because nobody wants to get sued even wrongfully over a Youtube video). We can debate whether or not they're responsible to make and post online, and we can debate whether or not they contribute to piracy, but legally they're probably not copyright infringement.
Nintendo is under no legal obligation to wield its copyright acceptably or responsibly, but also people who build emulators are under no legal obligation to make sure that no one pirates Nintendo games. I don't like how these conversations often get framed in a way where Nintendo is judged only on its legal obligations, but people who build and talk about emulators are judged on subjective social responsibilities that have nothing to do with the law.
Thank you for the detailed reply
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>> Nintendo’s position is and always will be that you can only play their games on their platforms.
We all felt the same way about SEGA in the early 90’s…
We all felt the same way about SEGA in the early 90’s…
...and now I play Sonic Mania on my Nintendo Switch
And Nintendo will even sell you a Genesis controller.
https://www.nintendo.com/store/products/sega-genesis-control...
https://www.nintendo.com/store/products/sega-genesis-control...
And people have been talking about Nintendo's demise since the early 90's.
Switch has better battery life than Deck, has a supply chain which is actually able to aquire parts in mass quantities and sell to a large number of customers, and is more user friendly than any PC will ever be.
I'll be buying a Deck in a few months when my preorder is ready to ship, but it's a niche product for tech enthusiasts while Nintendo makes mass market products for the general public.
I'll be buying a Deck in a few months when my preorder is ready to ship, but it's a niche product for tech enthusiasts while Nintendo makes mass market products for the general public.
> it's a niche product for tech enthusiasts
It is if you want it to be, but it's also a plug-and-play handheld console for PC gamers, which is not a niche market. Yeah, it runs a Linux-based OS but it's not like the user has to install it. Yeah, tinkerers and hackers are gonna do crazy stuff with it, but the vast majority of users will simply exchange $400 for a thing that runs video games.
It is if you want it to be, but it's also a plug-and-play handheld console for PC gamers, which is not a niche market. Yeah, it runs a Linux-based OS but it's not like the user has to install it. Yeah, tinkerers and hackers are gonna do crazy stuff with it, but the vast majority of users will simply exchange $400 for a thing that runs video games.
Well it's definetly "niche" in that it's not sold in general stores and you have to order it 6 months in advance since Valve can't make them in large quantities at the moment. That's gonna be a deal killer for most consumers for now.
Best case scenario it is plug and play for Deck verified games bought on Steam. If you want to play a game you own on GOG or the Epic store that's already going to require some tinkering to get it working in handheld mode if the experience is anything like trying to get the steam controller to work with other stores on PC. Similarly anything not sold on Steam (Including any Ubisoft game or Blizzard game these days I think).
And all the parts of the Steam catalogue that just aren't verified to run well.
Best case scenario it is plug and play for Deck verified games bought on Steam. If you want to play a game you own on GOG or the Epic store that's already going to require some tinkering to get it working in handheld mode if the experience is anything like trying to get the steam controller to work with other stores on PC. Similarly anything not sold on Steam (Including any Ubisoft game or Blizzard game these days I think).
And all the parts of the Steam catalogue that just aren't verified to run well.
> Well it's definetly "niche" in that it's not sold in general stores
Is that a good definition?
> and you have to order it 6 months in advance since Valve can't make them in large quantities at the moment
Switches were, and other consoles still are, in short supply for a number of reasons the past two years. The deck was released a week ago amid a historic shortage of the key component and general supply chain issues. The PS5 is hard to get at MSRP, to say nothing of GPUs, something like a year and change after release. I wouldn't call those niche products.
> Best case scenario it is plug and play for Deck verified games bought on Steam.
Yes, this is the best case scenario. It's also the baseline use case that most people will go through and a revolutionary value add in the market. Steam is the most popular platform for PC games and the vast majority of peoples' libraries are on their platform, not Epic's or GOG's. People without much investment in the platform are probably not going to buy a product named the *Steam Deck*. And even for the minority of users that are heavily invested in smaller platforms, it's a step up from whatever other obscure options they have now. That Epic doesn't want their games to run on a competitor's hardware is unfortunate but it's not like the Switch games I payed out the behind for are ever going to run on Sony or Microsoft hardware.
All of this seems like a strange set of criticism to target it with - all other plug-and-play consoles on the market basically require buying new games in a locked ecosystem with no/little crossplatform capabilities and all other PC handhelds either suck or cost roughly three times as much.
Is that a good definition?
> and you have to order it 6 months in advance since Valve can't make them in large quantities at the moment
Switches were, and other consoles still are, in short supply for a number of reasons the past two years. The deck was released a week ago amid a historic shortage of the key component and general supply chain issues. The PS5 is hard to get at MSRP, to say nothing of GPUs, something like a year and change after release. I wouldn't call those niche products.
> Best case scenario it is plug and play for Deck verified games bought on Steam.
Yes, this is the best case scenario. It's also the baseline use case that most people will go through and a revolutionary value add in the market. Steam is the most popular platform for PC games and the vast majority of peoples' libraries are on their platform, not Epic's or GOG's. People without much investment in the platform are probably not going to buy a product named the *Steam Deck*. And even for the minority of users that are heavily invested in smaller platforms, it's a step up from whatever other obscure options they have now. That Epic doesn't want their games to run on a competitor's hardware is unfortunate but it's not like the Switch games I payed out the behind for are ever going to run on Sony or Microsoft hardware.
All of this seems like a strange set of criticism to target it with - all other plug-and-play consoles on the market basically require buying new games in a locked ecosystem with no/little crossplatform capabilities and all other PC handhelds either suck or cost roughly three times as much.
Have there been proper apples to apples battery comparisons running same game at sameish resolution and same framerate limit? On paper the range of estimated battery life is quite similar 2-8 hours for steamdeck and 2-6.5 for old switch and 4.5-9 for new oled switch. The worst case 1.5 hours is mostly when intentionally setting excesively high graphic settings and uncapped framerate, on other hand large portion of switch games have simple graphics with framerate limit always enabled thus raising the typical battery estimate.
For simple 2d games both should have 6-8 hours of battery life. From what I could find for Witcher 3 (moderately complex 3d, but not the very latest) steamdeck can run 4H, for Nintendo Switch the battery estimate as claimed by CD project red is 2.5 hours, but some newer materials suggest that on the new oled switch depending on mode it can 4-5H. And at least initially witcher3 on switch in portable mode was running at 540p resolution. So again no clear winner without properly controlled tests.
For simple 2d games both should have 6-8 hours of battery life. From what I could find for Witcher 3 (moderately complex 3d, but not the very latest) steamdeck can run 4H, for Nintendo Switch the battery estimate as claimed by CD project red is 2.5 hours, but some newer materials suggest that on the new oled switch depending on mode it can 4-5H. And at least initially witcher3 on switch in portable mode was running at 540p resolution. So again no clear winner without properly controlled tests.
Deck is a niche experimental product. Yet Nintendo didn't get where it is with conservative hardware. Since the NES they've pushed the mainstream in different directions: smooth scrolling, thumbstick, portables, dual screens, 3D portable, stylus, etc. Valve may do the same if they can deliver the polish needed.
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> The Steam deck doesn't just threaten the outdated hardware of the switch in terms of games and gaming performance, it threatens Nintendo's platform on its own turf.
I really doubt it.
- It doesn't include a dock or any external controller without paying more. This was the entire pitch for the Switch
- It's more expensive and has worse battery life. Better graphics don't matter that much on a tiny screen. (Game Gear anyone?)
- Valve has a bad track record for committing to their own hardware. Remember how everyone also thought SteamOS was going to be the big takeover and it barely even happened?
- It runs linux. I run linux and love it, but running specific games, correctly interfacing with a variety of inputs and displays, it's just not going to be as smooth as a console with a dedicated OS. I'm guessing lots of people will install windows.
- Their marketing is basically non-existent next to Nintendo. It's impressive how successful Steam is without really marketing, but that won't fly in the console space. Having a successful console launch is incredibly hard. Nintendo only manages it about half the time.
- From what I've read, the emulation isn't perfect. Switch emulators even on desktop hardware can't necessarily handle every game well, why would the Steam Deck be able to?
I really doubt it.
- It doesn't include a dock or any external controller without paying more. This was the entire pitch for the Switch
- It's more expensive and has worse battery life. Better graphics don't matter that much on a tiny screen. (Game Gear anyone?)
- Valve has a bad track record for committing to their own hardware. Remember how everyone also thought SteamOS was going to be the big takeover and it barely even happened?
- It runs linux. I run linux and love it, but running specific games, correctly interfacing with a variety of inputs and displays, it's just not going to be as smooth as a console with a dedicated OS. I'm guessing lots of people will install windows.
- Their marketing is basically non-existent next to Nintendo. It's impressive how successful Steam is without really marketing, but that won't fly in the console space. Having a successful console launch is incredibly hard. Nintendo only manages it about half the time.
- From what I've read, the emulation isn't perfect. Switch emulators even on desktop hardware can't necessarily handle every game well, why would the Steam Deck be able to?
> Valve has a bad track record for committing to their own hardware. Remember how everyone also thought SteamOS was going to be the big takeover and it barely even happened?
You seem to be unaware that SteamOS was a a resounding success in its primary goal: to stop in its tracks Microsoft's plan to turn the Windows OS into a locked-down walled garden that would run only MS-approved software* (by threatening them to switch the majority of gamers to Linux). Microsoft has never attempted such thing again to the same extent, and even XBox games are largely PC compatible.
That Valve has learned a lot about porting Windows games to Linux and they went through all the early labor pains, so that a few years later they have a robust and stable platform for their new competitive device, is just icing on the cake.
* For a hint of this backstory, see https://www.pcworld.com/article/394953/why-does-the-steam-de...
> it's just not going to be as smooth as a console with a dedicated OS. I'm guessing lots of people will install windows.
This is a console with a dedicated OS (which just happens to be Windows retro-compatible, thanks to Valve's Proton layer). Given the success it looks set to have, publishers won't be able to afford not to optimize their future AAA games for the device.
You seem to be unaware that SteamOS was a a resounding success in its primary goal: to stop in its tracks Microsoft's plan to turn the Windows OS into a locked-down walled garden that would run only MS-approved software* (by threatening them to switch the majority of gamers to Linux). Microsoft has never attempted such thing again to the same extent, and even XBox games are largely PC compatible.
That Valve has learned a lot about porting Windows games to Linux and they went through all the early labor pains, so that a few years later they have a robust and stable platform for their new competitive device, is just icing on the cake.
* For a hint of this backstory, see https://www.pcworld.com/article/394953/why-does-the-steam-de...
> it's just not going to be as smooth as a console with a dedicated OS. I'm guessing lots of people will install windows.
This is a console with a dedicated OS (which just happens to be Windows retro-compatible, thanks to Valve's Proton layer). Given the success it looks set to have, publishers won't be able to afford not to optimize their future AAA games for the device.
A history of releasing projects where actual successful adoption of the product wasn't the real goal isn't the defense you think it is.
Simply standing out of frame in the background while Microsoft faceplants into the ground at 50mph does not make SteamOS a "resounding success", it just makes it a thing that existed, at best.
> - Valve has a bad track record for committing to their own hardware.
They actually have a pretty good track record when it comes to long term support of their hardware. Steam Link and Steam Controller have been getting new features and updates even after becoming unavailable to buy, and from what I heard Index owners can't really complain either. You may be thinking about Steam Machines, but those weren't actually Valve's hardware at all.
> I'm guessing lots of people will install windows.
...and they'll quickly go back to SteamOS, as running Windows on a device like that will come with quite a lot of suffering.
They actually have a pretty good track record when it comes to long term support of their hardware. Steam Link and Steam Controller have been getting new features and updates even after becoming unavailable to buy, and from what I heard Index owners can't really complain either. You may be thinking about Steam Machines, but those weren't actually Valve's hardware at all.
> I'm guessing lots of people will install windows.
...and they'll quickly go back to SteamOS, as running Windows on a device like that will come with quite a lot of suffering.
> - It doesn't include a dock or any external controller without paying more. This was the entire pitch for the Switch
did you miss the fact that they now sell undockable Switch versions?
> m guessing lots of people will install windows.
You will be surprised. A lot of customization went in steamOS that wont be easily done on a windows build
did you miss the fact that they now sell undockable Switch versions?
> m guessing lots of people will install windows.
You will be surprised. A lot of customization went in steamOS that wont be easily done on a windows build
Got a Steam Deck (not only a flex, it is to give context to my answers)
- I do wish I could take of the sides and plop the screen down like a Switch, mostly because it is cool. And it is less of a complete package without a dock, but if you don't want to play docked at least you aren't paying for e-waste.
- The Steam Deck is an enthusiasts device, I think the price is great for the hardware. And if graphics doesn't matter then with this enthusiast device you can lower the graphics and get comparable to switch battery life, or tune it to be better.
- The only hardware this applies to is the Steam machine, everything else is still supported, literally all of it is still supported with updates.
- With the steam deck verified system, they make you well aware when you are about to play a unsupported/unchecked title, if you stick to "verified" and "playable" then you'll have a console experience, one with more optional knobs to play with. Also installing windows on this thing would ruin so much of it.
- They have no marketing now, but after reservations are filled it does make sense to start having ads and maybe selling it in third party stores, we'll have to see.
- Emulation can only get better, it is just ARM.
- I do wish I could take of the sides and plop the screen down like a Switch, mostly because it is cool. And it is less of a complete package without a dock, but if you don't want to play docked at least you aren't paying for e-waste.
- The Steam Deck is an enthusiasts device, I think the price is great for the hardware. And if graphics doesn't matter then with this enthusiast device you can lower the graphics and get comparable to switch battery life, or tune it to be better.
- The only hardware this applies to is the Steam machine, everything else is still supported, literally all of it is still supported with updates.
- With the steam deck verified system, they make you well aware when you are about to play a unsupported/unchecked title, if you stick to "verified" and "playable" then you'll have a console experience, one with more optional knobs to play with. Also installing windows on this thing would ruin so much of it.
- They have no marketing now, but after reservations are filled it does make sense to start having ads and maybe selling it in third party stores, we'll have to see.
- Emulation can only get better, it is just ARM.
> The Steam Deck is an enthusiasts device
I think this is the key point here. It might seem like I'm hating on the Steam Deck but I'm really not. I'll probably get one eventually, but IMO it's in no way a threat to the Switch.
I think this is the key point here. It might seem like I'm hating on the Steam Deck but I'm really not. I'll probably get one eventually, but IMO it's in no way a threat to the Switch.
Yes, it just isn't a competitor to the Switch. I do not get the reasoning of those that say that.
The Steam Deck is like a Switch Pro, but not in the usual way the Pro naming is used, it is just more complex and for people who know what they are doing.
It is the Switch tech-enthusiast edition.
The Steam Deck is like a Switch Pro, but not in the usual way the Pro naming is used, it is just more complex and for people who know what they are doing.
It is the Switch tech-enthusiast edition.
Battery life is variable. Pokémon kills my switch in about 1.5 hours. It’s been shown that , depending on the setting, steam deck can rival switch in battery life. Playing a modern game at high settings and uncapped frame rate will kill your battery, but low settings and capping frame rate at 30fps will make the steam deck last much longer.
it's also way bigger and less portable
I think the interesting question is, how are they doing it?
I would think if you kept the game shots short and incidental the copyright would be fair use.
I would think if you kept the game shots short and incidental the copyright would be fair use.
The DMCA is ridicously unbalanced. There's no penalty to filing false reports and if you disagree with a claim you have to hand over your personal information and fight it out in court. This is hardly a surprise given that the DMCA was written mostly by the copyright lobby; sadly, the law is working exactly as intended in such cases.
It's time to redo the DMCA, but I fear the copyright industry has only gained a bigger foothold since the DMCA was written.
It's time to redo the DMCA, but I fear the copyright industry has only gained a bigger foothold since the DMCA was written.
You don't even have to file a DMCA takedown request to take down videos from YouTube anyway, they have an entirely extralegal mechanism for taking down videos.
Guilty until proven innocent is what the DMCA is. Perhaps one of the most asinine, imbecilic, and nonsensical laws of our time.
It's also one of the most confused and irrelevant laws when it comes to people discussing how YouTube works. Something like 2% of takedowns on YouTube are through DMCA.
This is true. The vast majority of YouTube takedowns are via the Content ID system, outnumbering copyright claims 50 to 1. But that doesn't tell the entire story.
The reason why YouTube has such a robust Content ID system in the first place is inherently due to DMCA. The less automated DMCA complaints YouTube receives, the less damage control and legal overhead it will be as expenditure.
The reason why YouTube has such a robust Content ID system in the first place is inherently due to DMCA. The less automated DMCA complaints YouTube receives, the less damage control and legal overhead it will be as expenditure.
Google’s legal overhead would be way worse in the absence of the DMCA, if we were playing by the rules of plain-old copyright. As they wouldn’t have the standardized process and safe harbor that DMCA provides. Reading C&Ds that come in on paper via certified mail is very labor intensive. They’d need Content ID even more in that case.
A judge would consider the fair use argument. I don't know that YouTube employs judges in content moderation. (I don't know that YouTube employs humans in content moderation, at least below director level.)
Most YouTube takedowns are not done through DMCA. They're done because YouTube cooperates directly with many content owners to do takedowns voluntarily. There are almost no legal limits or regulatory terms to what YouTube is permitted to voluntarily take down.
Fair Use is only a legal defense. It is not a requirement that YouTube host your content.
Fair Use is only a legal defense. It is not a requirement that YouTube host your content.
YouTube does not employ judges or humans in deciding whether to honor a content owner's request. It doesn't employ anything. It is up to the content owner to police themselves, only when they mess up royally will YouTube remove them from the content owner system.
Tom Scott has a great video on Copyright:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jwo5qc78QU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jwo5qc78QU
That made me laugh. Because my movies were also taken down because of background music. And that was the feeling I got when I raised "dispute" in YouTube system to defend my videos. It was like a Russian roulette
A lot of YT users don't realize it's a platform where a committee of bigcorps outside of Google editorially decide what people can see. This is also a way of keeping activists out of sight.
Doesn't matter. Nintendo send a takedown notice, it gets taken down.
Nintendo hates emulation that isn't generating Nintendo revenue, to be specific. They sell emulator hardware and emulator software via their platforms.
They would make more money from emulated content if they allowed you to transfer your purchases to the next generation console.
So they don't just want to make money off of it, they want every emulated Nintendo title to survive the same way Grand Theft Auto or Skyrim does, except it's just you buying it over and over again on the newest Nintendo console.
So they don't just want to make money off of it, they want every emulated Nintendo title to survive the same way Grand Theft Auto or Skyrim does, except it's just you buying it over and over again on the newest Nintendo console.
They don't even let you buy MOST old games to emulate officially. There's plenty of SNES, GBA, etc games that do not have a legal path to play other than finding the original cartridge on ebay and hoping your original hardware still works.
And then they're spotty about what they'll actually allow you to buy that way anyway. I would have loved to play the first NA released Fire Emblem legitimately, but they only released it for WiiU.
No one stops them from selling DRM-free images of their games to be run with any emulator on any platform and generate revenue from that. They don't, so it's their own loss pirates provide that flexibility instead.
comparing the switch to the deck is akin to comparing a ps5 to a top of the line pc, in terms of both UX, time / effort required to run games, price, etc. consoles are _always_ underpowered and restricted in terms of graphical capabilities compared to computers, but the minimal amount of effort required, exclusive game library, and significantly lower price point (all of which the switch have over the deck) keep the market incredibly successful at least in north america. keep in mind, a lot of people like to play their switch connected to a television using the dock, a feature which will generally cost you an additional 150 bucks to play on the deck ($100 deck dock, $60 wireless bluetooth controller). not to say the deck isnt a fantastic product, i am absolutely getting one, but there's a reason the console market is still booming and hasnt eradicated the console market despite being the "superior platform". they fill separate needs
My company has access to special equipment under NDA, so I might be very biased.
But my impression is that Nintendo is working super hard to keep game developers happy. And that includes working DRM. Sorry if you don't like it, but that's why you see so many games on Steam and so relatively few on Gog. And can you really fault studios who put in 100+ mio USD into financing a new game that they hate with a passion those people who play but don't pay?
Nintendo has to act strongly against emulation, or else their game development partners will be upset.
The other thing that I believe Nintendo is extremely concerned about is making things family safe. With an actual Switch, you can put it into kids mode, set a play timer, and safely hand it to your kid. That's also why they do not have a web browser.
What did you expect would happen with a video showing DRM removal, software piracy, and the ability to mix in adult content?
But my impression is that Nintendo is working super hard to keep game developers happy. And that includes working DRM. Sorry if you don't like it, but that's why you see so many games on Steam and so relatively few on Gog. And can you really fault studios who put in 100+ mio USD into financing a new game that they hate with a passion those people who play but don't pay?
Nintendo has to act strongly against emulation, or else their game development partners will be upset.
The other thing that I believe Nintendo is extremely concerned about is making things family safe. With an actual Switch, you can put it into kids mode, set a play timer, and safely hand it to your kid. That's also why they do not have a web browser.
What did you expect would happen with a video showing DRM removal, software piracy, and the ability to mix in adult content?
Japanese animations studios seem equallly litigious.
This completely encourages piracy of recently released software.
You can't give me the archivist argument that there's no other ways to experience these games.
Nintendo is not targeting the same market as the Steam Deck. The Steam Deck still looks too much like a prototype for me to want to buy it. A very large percentage of games available on Steam will simply not work on a steam deck. Nobody knows if it's even possible to get Microsoft Game Pass running on it, and for many PC gamers that's a significant percentage of your library. Nobody knows if other storefronts are going to play ball.
For example, I really wanted to play the HD. Tony hawk. But since Epic has an exclusive deal, I dusted off my PS4 and played it there.
Compare this to a Nintendo switch, it's a small game console for me to play Smash Bros and Advance Wars. It's a vastly more polished experience. I don't need to worry about Photon compatibility issues , I can just play a video game.
It's as if someone posted "Here's how you get Netflix for free", and Netflix filed a DMCA request against it. You can't call Netflix the bad guy here. Likewise Nintendo isn't monopolizing an essential service, you can enjoy other content. You just don't have a right to enjoy theirs without paying the entry fee.
For example, if you decide you don't want to buy a Mac, and then your Hackintosh gets your Apple account banned, you have no one to blame but yourself.
You can't give me the archivist argument that there's no other ways to experience these games.
Nintendo is not targeting the same market as the Steam Deck. The Steam Deck still looks too much like a prototype for me to want to buy it. A very large percentage of games available on Steam will simply not work on a steam deck. Nobody knows if it's even possible to get Microsoft Game Pass running on it, and for many PC gamers that's a significant percentage of your library. Nobody knows if other storefronts are going to play ball.
For example, I really wanted to play the HD. Tony hawk. But since Epic has an exclusive deal, I dusted off my PS4 and played it there.
Compare this to a Nintendo switch, it's a small game console for me to play Smash Bros and Advance Wars. It's a vastly more polished experience. I don't need to worry about Photon compatibility issues , I can just play a video game.
It's as if someone posted "Here's how you get Netflix for free", and Netflix filed a DMCA request against it. You can't call Netflix the bad guy here. Likewise Nintendo isn't monopolizing an essential service, you can enjoy other content. You just don't have a right to enjoy theirs without paying the entry fee.
For example, if you decide you don't want to buy a Mac, and then your Hackintosh gets your Apple account banned, you have no one to blame but yourself.
>>Nobody knows if it's even possible to get Microsoft Game Pass running on it
What do you mean nobody knows? Just install windows on it, and play your Gamepass games? Same with the Epic launcher.
>>It's as if someone posted "Here's how you get Netflix for free", and Netflix filed a DMCA request against it.
That's not even remotely comparable. May I remind you that in US Sony has lost the legal battle against Blem! Emulator, for this exact reason, and the court was explicit in its ruling - the games that you own can be played on other systems using emulators and Sony doesn't get to have a say in it.
>>You just don't have a right to enjoy theirs without paying the entry fee.
No one said anything about playing games without paying for them. That's your own interpretation.
>>Compare this to a Nintendo switch, it's a small game console for me to play Smash Bros and Advance Wars. It's a vastly more polished experience.
Literally no one is making you get rid of your switch. Enjoy the system and the experiences on it.
What do you mean nobody knows? Just install windows on it, and play your Gamepass games? Same with the Epic launcher.
>>It's as if someone posted "Here's how you get Netflix for free", and Netflix filed a DMCA request against it.
That's not even remotely comparable. May I remind you that in US Sony has lost the legal battle against Blem! Emulator, for this exact reason, and the court was explicit in its ruling - the games that you own can be played on other systems using emulators and Sony doesn't get to have a say in it.
>>You just don't have a right to enjoy theirs without paying the entry fee.
No one said anything about playing games without paying for them. That's your own interpretation.
>>Compare this to a Nintendo switch, it's a small game console for me to play Smash Bros and Advance Wars. It's a vastly more polished experience.
Literally no one is making you get rid of your switch. Enjoy the system and the experiences on it.
There's no way to legally dump a switch rom.
It's just what it is, you'd have to crack the DRM on it and that's already a violation of the DMCA.
Let's be honest for a second, almost no one who's running a switch emulator legally purchase those games, and then dumped those games to a file. Sure, it's possible but that's not what 99.9% of users are going to do.
You attempt to install Windows on a Steam Deck, but it looks like nothing works yet.
https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/install-windows-steam-de...
It's just what it is, you'd have to crack the DRM on it and that's already a violation of the DMCA.
Let's be honest for a second, almost no one who's running a switch emulator legally purchase those games, and then dumped those games to a file. Sure, it's possible but that's not what 99.9% of users are going to do.
You attempt to install Windows on a Steam Deck, but it looks like nothing works yet.
https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/install-windows-steam-de...
>>It's just what it is, you'd have to crack the DRM on it and that's already a violation of the DMCA.
I don't live on the US and there's literally nothing illegal about dumping a switch ROM here. DMCA doesn't have any authority here. Besides, even in US you have the right to make a copy of the media you own and this particular scenario hasn't been tested in court so at best you are speculating.
>>Let's be honest for a second, almost no one who's running a switch emulator legally purchase those games, and then dumped those games to a file.
Where I live you can legally just download a copy of a game that you own and play that, nothing illegal about that.
>>Sure, it's possible but that's not what 99.9% of users are going to do.
Even then, that's not a reason for Nintendo to remove those videos from YouTube. Just like a video explaining how to use a torrent client shouldn't be removed, even though "probably" 99.9% of users use torrents to pirate content.
Did you forget the entire discussion last year about the takedown of Youtube-DL? Just because something might be used illegally doesn't make it illegal.
>>You attempt to install Windows on a Steam Deck, but it looks like nothing works yet
Right, that part I'll admit I wasn't aware of.
I don't live on the US and there's literally nothing illegal about dumping a switch ROM here. DMCA doesn't have any authority here. Besides, even in US you have the right to make a copy of the media you own and this particular scenario hasn't been tested in court so at best you are speculating.
>>Let's be honest for a second, almost no one who's running a switch emulator legally purchase those games, and then dumped those games to a file.
Where I live you can legally just download a copy of a game that you own and play that, nothing illegal about that.
>>Sure, it's possible but that's not what 99.9% of users are going to do.
Even then, that's not a reason for Nintendo to remove those videos from YouTube. Just like a video explaining how to use a torrent client shouldn't be removed, even though "probably" 99.9% of users use torrents to pirate content.
Did you forget the entire discussion last year about the takedown of Youtube-DL? Just because something might be used illegally doesn't make it illegal.
>>You attempt to install Windows on a Steam Deck, but it looks like nothing works yet
Right, that part I'll admit I wasn't aware of.
> Besides, even in US you have the right to make a copy of the media you own
Not in the sense that we usually refer to "rights" in US law. The big tangle here is that Congress essentially passed one law that said making copies is only legal under one set of conditions, then passed a different law saying that breaking DRM is only legal under a different set of conditions.
Not in the sense that we usually refer to "rights" in US law. The big tangle here is that Congress essentially passed one law that said making copies is only legal under one set of conditions, then passed a different law saying that breaking DRM is only legal under a different set of conditions.
YouTube is an American based company, therefore they should not encourage the violation of American laws.
Additionally, YouTube has a right to act in their own best interest. Nintendo also runs advertising on various Google products, if responding to their DCMA request makes it easier for Google to turn a profit, why not?
Additionally, YouTube has a right to act in their own best interest. Nintendo also runs advertising on various Google products, if responding to their DCMA request makes it easier for Google to turn a profit, why not?
> It's as if someone posted "Here's how you get Netflix for free", and Netflix filed a DMCA request against it. You can't call Netflix the bad guy here. Likewise Nintendo isn't monopolizing an essential service, you can enjoy other content. You just don't have a right to enjoy theirs without paying the entry fee.
Actually, taking the DMCA and Youtube policies out of the conversation for a moment—what is the legality of something like this? It's not illegal to share instructions on how to make a bomb, right?
Actually, taking the DMCA and Youtube policies out of the conversation for a moment—what is the legality of something like this? It's not illegal to share instructions on how to make a bomb, right?
> It's not illegal to share instructions on how to make a bomb, right?
Depends on the country, I think many countries have terrorism laws that this might contravene now. I would expect that to be illegal in the UK for a start, probably most of Europe.
Depends on the country, I think many countries have terrorism laws that this might contravene now. I would expect that to be illegal in the UK for a start, probably most of Europe.
most of that is not true about hating things. It is trying to make sure people are not stealing games.
If keeping the "how to" videos off the internet is their survival strategy, they've already lost. IMO this is not a threat to Nintendo, and those who want to emulate will figure it out no matter how many YouTube videos get taken down.
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Their brand exclusives are by far the most envied.
> Nintendo has a long history of lying in legal documents like DMCAs to take content that doesn't please them down.
Something something that's capitalism.
But seriously, what do we do as responsible consumers and voters to prevent this? Should there be a measurable penalty for knowingly lying on DMCA takedown orders, something proportional to the estimation of attempted damages caused? It's obviously anticompetitive, but can anything be done?
Something something that's capitalism.
But seriously, what do we do as responsible consumers and voters to prevent this? Should there be a measurable penalty for knowingly lying on DMCA takedown orders, something proportional to the estimation of attempted damages caused? It's obviously anticompetitive, but can anything be done?
There has to be an alternative reality where I can purchase Nintendo software on Steam, right? Nintendo would make so much money...
Sounds like a MacOS on third party hardware situation to me. Brand dilution and all that. I wouldn't expect that before they are end-of-days desperate.
But they already sell shitty P2W mobile games on the app stores, seems like hubris trying to maintain their own platform.
There's an argument to be made that mobile gaming in Asia is what forced Nintendo's hand on the P2W mobile games. I don't (yet) see a world where Steam has the muscle to do this.
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> To be a dedicated fan of Nintendo's franchises is to be a masochist.
For example I am a Zelda and Metroid fan (by “fan” I mean “someone that enjoys playing those games”), but I don’t think I’ve ever cared about any video game to the point of actually subjecting myself to any suffering. I know even more diehard friends than me that happily use emulators for games that they can’t find/afford.
Maybe there is a masochistic style of being a fan that someone can choose to subscribe to, but it’s not clear that it’s Nintendo’s fault that one would make such a choice.
For example I am a Zelda and Metroid fan (by “fan” I mean “someone that enjoys playing those games”), but I don’t think I’ve ever cared about any video game to the point of actually subjecting myself to any suffering. I know even more diehard friends than me that happily use emulators for games that they can’t find/afford.
Maybe there is a masochistic style of being a fan that someone can choose to subscribe to, but it’s not clear that it’s Nintendo’s fault that one would make such a choice.
And out of all this, by far the most unethical thing Nintendo has ever done is refuse to release an English-language translation of Mother 3. I'll never forgive them for this, and I decided long ago I'll never buy another one of their products until they release it.
I'm sorry, but how is a company deciding not to localise and release a product to a certain market unethical?
People like to complain, especially to big rich companies.
There's a really surprising amount of confusion in these comments about how copyright (at least in the US) works. More confusion than I expected to see on a site like Hackernews. Emulators are legal, including emulators for current-gen systems. Switch emulation is exactly as legal as Gameboy emulation.
You can argue current-gen emulators are irresponsible, you can say they're mostly used for piracy, but Nintendo doesn't have a right to stop people from talking about emulators. Taking down videos that talk about emulators is not Nintendo protecting its IP, it is an abuse of the DMCA or other non-DMCA tools in Youtube to shut down conversation that Nintendo has no legal right to shut down. Nintendo does not have the legal right to demand people not talk about emulators or share how they work, that's not a right that IP law grants. To say that they're protecting their IP is just false, they're claiming IP rights that they don't have.
Of course in this scenario, no one is going to challenge these takedowns because no one wants to get sued, and the stakes are ultimately unbelievably low. But a video about how to install an emulator is probably not copyright infringement, and (IANAL), I would be very surprised to see Nintendo get a positive ruling if they actually sued someone over showing how to install an emulator on a computer. Again, IANAL, but I'm not even sure you would claim fair use in a case like this. Fair use is a defense for violating copyright, and emulators don't violate copyright.
Discussions about the morality of emulation and the proliferation of piracy are fine, this can be a complicated subject with moral ramifications. But legally speaking, at least in the US, emulators are not piracy and talking about them is not copyright infringement.
You can argue current-gen emulators are irresponsible, you can say they're mostly used for piracy, but Nintendo doesn't have a right to stop people from talking about emulators. Taking down videos that talk about emulators is not Nintendo protecting its IP, it is an abuse of the DMCA or other non-DMCA tools in Youtube to shut down conversation that Nintendo has no legal right to shut down. Nintendo does not have the legal right to demand people not talk about emulators or share how they work, that's not a right that IP law grants. To say that they're protecting their IP is just false, they're claiming IP rights that they don't have.
Of course in this scenario, no one is going to challenge these takedowns because no one wants to get sued, and the stakes are ultimately unbelievably low. But a video about how to install an emulator is probably not copyright infringement, and (IANAL), I would be very surprised to see Nintendo get a positive ruling if they actually sued someone over showing how to install an emulator on a computer. Again, IANAL, but I'm not even sure you would claim fair use in a case like this. Fair use is a defense for violating copyright, and emulators don't violate copyright.
Discussions about the morality of emulation and the proliferation of piracy are fine, this can be a complicated subject with moral ramifications. But legally speaking, at least in the US, emulators are not piracy and talking about them is not copyright infringement.
> Emulators are legal, including emulators for current-gen systems. Switch emulation is exactly as legal as Gameboy emulation.
I know you're talking about emulators, not ROMs. But it's also worth mentioning that the legality of Switch ROMs actually is quite different from Game Boy ROMs. I was recently surprised to discover archive.org has ROMs for older systems - IANAL, but apparently this is covered by a DMCA exemption for obsolete formats [1]. Also, Switch ROMs are encrypted on the cartridge, and while I really don't know the details, breaking the encryption also seems to open another legal can of worms (remember when people would get tattoos of the DVD encryption key?).
Once again IANAL, but I suspect Nintendo would have a better case against videos that include instructions on acquiring & decrypting Switch ROMs. I'm not sure if that's the case with these videos or not.
[1] https://archive.org/about/dmca.php
I know you're talking about emulators, not ROMs. But it's also worth mentioning that the legality of Switch ROMs actually is quite different from Game Boy ROMs. I was recently surprised to discover archive.org has ROMs for older systems - IANAL, but apparently this is covered by a DMCA exemption for obsolete formats [1]. Also, Switch ROMs are encrypted on the cartridge, and while I really don't know the details, breaking the encryption also seems to open another legal can of worms (remember when people would get tattoos of the DVD encryption key?).
Once again IANAL, but I suspect Nintendo would have a better case against videos that include instructions on acquiring & decrypting Switch ROMs. I'm not sure if that's the case with these videos or not.
[1] https://archive.org/about/dmca.php
That's an excellent point, thanks for mentioning it. There's a lot of grey area around older ROMs specifically with the Internet Archive because if I remember correctly I think they were granted some extra privileges, but in general distributing most ROMs are illegal period even for older systems. The only way to legally own them is to rip them yourself.
And breaking DRM is usually illegal regardless of whether or not you're doing it for a legal purpose. IANAL, but I think you're right, I suspect Nintendo would probably have a much better case if they went after people showing how to rip ROMs. I have a hard time keeping up with what is and isn't an exception to the DMCA, since it changes occasionally. There are some systems like phones where showing people how to bypass DRM is legal, every once and a while a big list of exception "categories" gets decided, and anything that's not on that list is illegal to bypass DRM for and illegal to show people how to bypass DRM.
It's a little weird. Emulators are legal and for many non-encrypted systems hacking and dumping your own ROMs is legal; but breaking DRM even if you're not doing anything illegal by breaking DRM -- the act itself is often illegal, and I don't remember if an exception was ever made for consoles or not.
One thing for certain, people will say that you can buy a game and then download the ROM, and maybe you can argue it's moral, but it's not legal -- the only way to legally extract a Switch ROM is to buy a Switch, hack it, and literally extract the ROM yourself (and like you mention, even that can be of questionable legality). So we run into a situation where the emulator is legal, talking about the emulator is legal, but getting media to run on the emulator, even if you're not "stealing it" by any commonly understood definition of the term is likely illegal.
Basically it boils down to whether bypassing the DRM falls into one of the current DMCA exceptions, whether you're a library, etc... and I'm embarrassed to admit I don't know if consoles are currently on that list or not.
And breaking DRM is usually illegal regardless of whether or not you're doing it for a legal purpose. IANAL, but I think you're right, I suspect Nintendo would probably have a much better case if they went after people showing how to rip ROMs. I have a hard time keeping up with what is and isn't an exception to the DMCA, since it changes occasionally. There are some systems like phones where showing people how to bypass DRM is legal, every once and a while a big list of exception "categories" gets decided, and anything that's not on that list is illegal to bypass DRM for and illegal to show people how to bypass DRM.
It's a little weird. Emulators are legal and for many non-encrypted systems hacking and dumping your own ROMs is legal; but breaking DRM even if you're not doing anything illegal by breaking DRM -- the act itself is often illegal, and I don't remember if an exception was ever made for consoles or not.
One thing for certain, people will say that you can buy a game and then download the ROM, and maybe you can argue it's moral, but it's not legal -- the only way to legally extract a Switch ROM is to buy a Switch, hack it, and literally extract the ROM yourself (and like you mention, even that can be of questionable legality). So we run into a situation where the emulator is legal, talking about the emulator is legal, but getting media to run on the emulator, even if you're not "stealing it" by any commonly understood definition of the term is likely illegal.
Basically it boils down to whether bypassing the DRM falls into one of the current DMCA exceptions, whether you're a library, etc... and I'm embarrassed to admit I don't know if consoles are currently on that list or not.
> More confusion than I expected to see on a site like Hackernews.
Kinda funny, because... you're here claiming that Nintendo is (likely) doing something illegal here and are adding to the confusion.
The thing is, the removals that are in the press right now, especially the Steam Deck one, had gameplay in them... and as far as I know and understand US law and its current interpretation, Nintendo is likely well within its rights to DMCA gameplay.
Kinda funny, because... you're here claiming that Nintendo is (likely) doing something illegal here and are adding to the confusion.
The thing is, the removals that are in the press right now, especially the Steam Deck one, had gameplay in them... and as far as I know and understand US law and its current interpretation, Nintendo is likely well within its rights to DMCA gameplay.
> and are adding to the confusion.
> had gameplay in them... and as far as I know and understand US law and its current interpretation, Nintendo is likely well within its rights to DMCA gameplay.
No, not for informational purposes. Nintendo doesn't have the right to (for example) demand a review video come down just because it doesn't like the coverage -- even if the video includes gameplay. If the emulator tutorials showcased large swaths of gameplay then that would be a problem, but snippets would not fall into that category.
Copyright has limits. Companies often try to create the impression that every review, article, tutorial, or blog post that references their products only exists at their pleasure. But that's not actually how copyright works. You can't take down a news article or tutorial unless it's using those snippets in a way that goes beyond fair use.
Of course, Nintendo technically can take down those videos, but not because there's a legal right to or because they're protecting their IP; Nintendo can take down those videos because it has a bunch of lawyers and can threaten to ruin your life regardless of the eventual outcome of any lawsuit, and because Youtube will take down the videos for Nintendo without ever checking to see if Nintendo is abusing the DMCA/takedown process. But that's a separate conversation.
As always, IANAL, but including a snippet of gameplay from a Nintendo game in a tutorial about a Nintendo emulator is probably perfectly legal.
> had gameplay in them... and as far as I know and understand US law and its current interpretation, Nintendo is likely well within its rights to DMCA gameplay.
No, not for informational purposes. Nintendo doesn't have the right to (for example) demand a review video come down just because it doesn't like the coverage -- even if the video includes gameplay. If the emulator tutorials showcased large swaths of gameplay then that would be a problem, but snippets would not fall into that category.
Copyright has limits. Companies often try to create the impression that every review, article, tutorial, or blog post that references their products only exists at their pleasure. But that's not actually how copyright works. You can't take down a news article or tutorial unless it's using those snippets in a way that goes beyond fair use.
Of course, Nintendo technically can take down those videos, but not because there's a legal right to or because they're protecting their IP; Nintendo can take down those videos because it has a bunch of lawyers and can threaten to ruin your life regardless of the eventual outcome of any lawsuit, and because Youtube will take down the videos for Nintendo without ever checking to see if Nintendo is abusing the DMCA/takedown process. But that's a separate conversation.
As always, IANAL, but including a snippet of gameplay from a Nintendo game in a tutorial about a Nintendo emulator is probably perfectly legal.
The problem is using the process of threatening legal action to suppress speech. This is the very problem that anti-SLAPP statutes are designed to protect against; if they're ineffective in this case, they should be amended to explicitly cover DMCA notices in a way that dissuades using them to suppress speech.
For what it's worth, using a brief clip of an emulated Switch game seems to me to clearly fall under Fair Use. It's transformative and does not substitute for the original work, often non-profit and/or educational, is a small portion of the copyrighted work, and fails to displace any sales.
For what it's worth, using a brief clip of an emulated Switch game seems to me to clearly fall under Fair Use. It's transformative and does not substitute for the original work, often non-profit and/or educational, is a small portion of the copyrighted work, and fails to displace any sales.
It depends on the nature of the gameplay footage in the videos. There's a high likelihood that it was Fair Use.
There should be more accountability for incorrect DMCAs. I see why Nintendo is doing this, but it is wrong. Nintendo is famous for reselling old games on each and every new platform they build and this takes away that revenue.
According to a thread on Reddit this video only showed emulators and not ROMs. Pretty wild that there is no accountability for these actions.
According to a thread on Reddit this video only showed emulators and not ROMs. Pretty wild that there is no accountability for these actions.
The way people on YouTube get around the legal penalties for false DMCAs is simple: they don't file a DMCA request. There are several other mechanisms by which YouTube will gladly pull content: Content ID, contractual obligations, TOS violation, etc.
I still don't understand why Google went on the route of proactively removing content rather than reactively.
They just don't care. They're not a public service altruistically serving their users' videos up until the point the law requires them to take it down. They're an ad platform, trying to serve ads and not get sued.
Content ID was born out of a desire to keep Viacom happy after Google got sued: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viacom_International_Inc._v._Y...
Content ID was born out of a desire to keep Viacom happy after Google got sued: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viacom_International_Inc._v._Y...
That is part of the DMCA (the act, not the "DMCA notice" often shortened "DMCA"). In exchange for not being liable for the copyright infringement ("safe harbor"), the service provider (here YouTube) has to act on notices right away. The user files a counterclaim if that was wrong.
In short, it's not YouTube's (or GitHub's, etc) call, this is part of the agreement with copyright holders (the DMCA copyright law).
Don't take that as an endorsement though, I hate the system as much as you do.
In short, it's not YouTube's (or GitHub's, etc) call, this is part of the agreement with copyright holders (the DMCA copyright law).
Don't take that as an endorsement though, I hate the system as much as you do.
Right, that's what I mean. I wish they only did DMCA rather than the bullshit they do now.
Money, dear boy. They gain a lot more from keeping the big media companies onside than they do by pissing off a handful of creators (who are frankly a commodity to them).
Because the alternative is staring down billion-dollar lawsuits from Viacom and other copyright holders.
IIRC, it's because they got sued, and content ID was part of the settlement.
> Nintendo is famous for reselling old games on each and every new platform they build and this takes away that revenue.
I get why you might think this but it’s also almost categorically wrong nowadays. Sony and Microsoft have significantly larger portions of their old games available for replay or purchase than Nintendo does. The only virtual console content produced for the Switch has been locked behind their low quality online servers. I definitely look forward to BOTW2 and maybe an end-of-generation Pokémon game but otherwise I have a very dim view of Nintendo.
I get why you might think this but it’s also almost categorically wrong nowadays. Sony and Microsoft have significantly larger portions of their old games available for replay or purchase than Nintendo does. The only virtual console content produced for the Switch has been locked behind their low quality online servers. I definitely look forward to BOTW2 and maybe an end-of-generation Pokémon game but otherwise I have a very dim view of Nintendo.
> this video only showed emulators and not ROMs
It is probably still in violation of the DMCA. The DMCA also makes illegal tools that are primarily intended for circumvention, which these emulators almost certainly are.
But, even moreso, removals of videos on youtube are typically not done through the DMCA directly, but rather through a private extra-judicial system youtube manages (content-id et al).
Of course youtube has the rights, as a private company, to remove videos for no reason. Of course Nintendo can request youtube to remove any video for any reasons, DMCA or not, with no legal issues.
I doubt any DMCA, false or otherwise, has actually been issued in this case, and "accountability for incorrect DMCAs" would not help as a result.
It is probably still in violation of the DMCA. The DMCA also makes illegal tools that are primarily intended for circumvention, which these emulators almost certainly are.
But, even moreso, removals of videos on youtube are typically not done through the DMCA directly, but rather through a private extra-judicial system youtube manages (content-id et al).
Of course youtube has the rights, as a private company, to remove videos for no reason. Of course Nintendo can request youtube to remove any video for any reasons, DMCA or not, with no legal issues.
I doubt any DMCA, false or otherwise, has actually been issued in this case, and "accountability for incorrect DMCAs" would not help as a result.
> It is probably still in violation of the DMCA. The DMCA also makes illegal tools that are primarily intended for circumvention, which these emulators almost certainly are.
Nope. Emulators do not circumvent copy protection. When a ROM maker is extracting the game content from the original version, they are breaking copy protection. The ROM file they create and distribute does not have copy protection, so the emulator does not need to include copy protection circumvention.
> But, even moreso, removals of videos on youtube are typically not done through the DMCA directly, but rather through a private extra-judicial system youtube manages (content-id et al).
These are not, which is the point. Nintendo is doing this intentionally with their own DMCA takedowns. These aren't accidental false positives picked up by content id.
Nope. Emulators do not circumvent copy protection. When a ROM maker is extracting the game content from the original version, they are breaking copy protection. The ROM file they create and distribute does not have copy protection, so the emulator does not need to include copy protection circumvention.
> But, even moreso, removals of videos on youtube are typically not done through the DMCA directly, but rather through a private extra-judicial system youtube manages (content-id et al).
These are not, which is the point. Nintendo is doing this intentionally with their own DMCA takedowns. These aren't accidental false positives picked up by content id.
> These are not, which is the point. Nintendo is doing this intentionally with their own DMCA takedowns. These aren't accidental false positives picked up by content id.
Parent’s point is that Nintendo is not sending actual, official DMCA takedowns. They go through Youtube’s system that only needs suspicion of violation to strike the videos.
Parent’s point is that Nintendo is not sending actual, official DMCA takedowns. They go through Youtube’s system that only needs suspicion of violation to strike the videos.
I can't speak for other countries but emulators are 100% legal in the United States.
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I am not going to blatantly support piracy of video games (Most of us work in the software industry, and most of us want to get paid for our work. Video games should be no different.), but I think it's clear that game preservation has some issues in its current state, and Nintendo is one of the worst offenders. Nintendo is a lot like Apple in this way. They see things in one way, and assume all consumers will happily conform to that standard. They are stubborn and perhaps less willing to listen to the consumer than any other major video game company. And we all know that gamers are some of the most vocal, opinionated fans out there.
In my opinion, if you own a game (digitally or physically), there are absolutely zero moral qualms, and there should be zero legal issues, with playing a copy of that game on an emulator. Emulation is 100% legal and should be encouraged. ESPECIALLY because Nintendo makes it such a challenge to legally acquire old games, I understand why people turn to piracy and emulators.
I think Nintendo is within their rights to not want people showing videos of how to explicitly download pirated games and emulate them, but I don't see any way they can prevent people from simply showing an emulated game.
In my opinion, if you own a game (digitally or physically), there are absolutely zero moral qualms, and there should be zero legal issues, with playing a copy of that game on an emulator. Emulation is 100% legal and should be encouraged. ESPECIALLY because Nintendo makes it such a challenge to legally acquire old games, I understand why people turn to piracy and emulators.
I think Nintendo is within their rights to not want people showing videos of how to explicitly download pirated games and emulate them, but I don't see any way they can prevent people from simply showing an emulated game.
> In my opinion, if you own a game (digitally or physically), there are absolutely zero moral qualms, and there should be zero legal issues, with playing a copy of that game on an emulator.
I agree.
However—What percentage of the people who visit a Switch rom site, and are scrolling through the list of games, think "oh, that game looks interesting, but I don't own it. I won't download that one. Maybe I'll buy an eShop code off Amazon, and then come back and download it."
I've been that person. I'd hazard a guess that people like me make up 0.1% of users, at most. And I'm being generous.
There's a problem here. Possibly one with no solution; I don't know the right thing to do. But, I certainly don't fault Nintendo for their hostility towards emulators.
I agree.
However—What percentage of the people who visit a Switch rom site, and are scrolling through the list of games, think "oh, that game looks interesting, but I don't own it. I won't download that one. Maybe I'll buy an eShop code off Amazon, and then come back and download it."
I've been that person. I'd hazard a guess that people like me make up 0.1% of users, at most. And I'm being generous.
There's a problem here. Possibly one with no solution; I don't know the right thing to do. But, I certainly don't fault Nintendo for their hostility towards emulators.
But where do you still find games that you own?
You might be lucky enought to still own a physical media but the game is still only licensed to you. What if the licensor decides that the media will burn the first account it is used with into some efuses? No more selling that cart.
You can be f*cked with every minute.
Or just a hypothetical example: you bought a cool sandbox game in alpha and then some years later, some big IT corp comes around and requires that you now have to use their account system, hand over your data and agree to being tracked.
Or just a hypothetical example: you bought a cool sandbox game in alpha and then some years later, some big IT corp comes around and requires that you now have to use their account system, hand over your data and agree to being tracked.
Shit, thanks for reminding me I have migrate before they lock me out
Nintendo have the right to protect their IP and revenue. They have made some iconic games and characters that I would argue are as culturely significant as anything made by Disney. I would like them to be able to keep funding creative people.
However their revenues almost entirely comes from the new and not the old. Games don't go into syndication and get tv reruns. They are kept alive by the emulation community and I would argue it builds support for Nintendo's IP rather than do them damage. I have a kid whose first exposure to Metroid was Metroid Dread which he loved. We have a Wii but it is struggling a bit and he is playing through the Prime trilogy on Dolphin. No question he is going to go nuts when Nintendo release Prime 4. Cheap marketing.
I have been tempted to rip our Switch games to run on Yuzu but to be honest the Switch (we have 3 in the house) is just an ideal platform for these games and playing on a PC is going to be a worse experience in almost every way. The story is very different with older platforms. These will be history soon without emulation.
However their revenues almost entirely comes from the new and not the old. Games don't go into syndication and get tv reruns. They are kept alive by the emulation community and I would argue it builds support for Nintendo's IP rather than do them damage. I have a kid whose first exposure to Metroid was Metroid Dread which he loved. We have a Wii but it is struggling a bit and he is playing through the Prime trilogy on Dolphin. No question he is going to go nuts when Nintendo release Prime 4. Cheap marketing.
I have been tempted to rip our Switch games to run on Yuzu but to be honest the Switch (we have 3 in the house) is just an ideal platform for these games and playing on a PC is going to be a worse experience in almost every way. The story is very different with older platforms. These will be history soon without emulation.
> However their revenues almost entirely comes from the new and not the old. Games don't go into syndication and get tv reruns. They are kept alive by the emulation community and I would argue it builds support for Nintendo's IP rather than do them damage.
Note that in this case, we're talking about a Switch emulator.
> Playing on a PC is going to be a worse experience in almost every way.
I mean, not necessarily. I would argue that Breath of the Wild is already a better experience on a powerful PC (not necessarily a Steam Deck), once everything is set up. You can play in 4K and 60 fps with a long draw distance.
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I wish there was an easy, accessible way to rip legitimate cartridges for emulation. The problem is that no reasonable person is ever going to buy a game to play it in an emulator, because it requires an order of magnitude more work than downloading the game for free.
(The only exception I can think of is the PS2; PCSX2 can play PS2 games directly from a standard optical drive, and was released in an era when such drives were standard.)
Note that in this case, we're talking about a Switch emulator.
> Playing on a PC is going to be a worse experience in almost every way.
I mean, not necessarily. I would argue that Breath of the Wild is already a better experience on a powerful PC (not necessarily a Steam Deck), once everything is set up. You can play in 4K and 60 fps with a long draw distance.
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I wish there was an easy, accessible way to rip legitimate cartridges for emulation. The problem is that no reasonable person is ever going to buy a game to play it in an emulator, because it requires an order of magnitude more work than downloading the game for free.
(The only exception I can think of is the PS2; PCSX2 can play PS2 games directly from a standard optical drive, and was released in an era when such drives were standard.)
> The only exception I can think of is the PS2; PCSX2 can play PS2 games directly from a standard optical drive
I'm not sure of anything else directly as easy, but both the PSP and Wii could be made to rip their own disks, with the appropriate firmware installed, and some PC DVD drives were apparently Wii-disc compatible, but not all.
As you say though, it's extra work even then. I think I would probably buy the game and then download from an internet source, if I wanted to emulate but stay honest.
I'm not sure of anything else directly as easy, but both the PSP and Wii could be made to rip their own disks, with the appropriate firmware installed, and some PC DVD drives were apparently Wii-disc compatible, but not all.
As you say though, it's extra work even then. I think I would probably buy the game and then download from an internet source, if I wanted to emulate but stay honest.
DVD drives that can read Wii discs are super rare, but here's an interesting one—BluRay drives that can PS3 discs are quite common!
Unfortunately, ripping them still isn't an easy process. Last time I did this I needed three different programs: A generic ISO creator followed by "PS3 ISO Patcher" and then finally "3k3y ISO Tools".
This is an area where I'm actually a bit disappointed in emulator developers—RPCS3 ought to automate this process. I realize they're working for free in their spare time, but... if you're going to say that your software is intended to be used legally, I think you have some responsibility to make that the legal path accessible.
> I think I would probably buy the game and then download from an internet source, if I wanted to emulate but stay honest.
Sure, and I've done this to, but there's basically zero chance of anyone doing that at a larger scale. What we want is for the level of friction required to acquire and play a legitimate copy of a game in an emulator to be at least somewhat comparable to the effort required to find and download a pirated copy.
People who play on real hardware are much more likely than emulator users to track down actual games. I suspect that's because—even though piracy is readily available and quite easy on these consoles—using a real disc can feel a lot more straight forward.
Unfortunately, ripping them still isn't an easy process. Last time I did this I needed three different programs: A generic ISO creator followed by "PS3 ISO Patcher" and then finally "3k3y ISO Tools".
This is an area where I'm actually a bit disappointed in emulator developers—RPCS3 ought to automate this process. I realize they're working for free in their spare time, but... if you're going to say that your software is intended to be used legally, I think you have some responsibility to make that the legal path accessible.
> I think I would probably buy the game and then download from an internet source, if I wanted to emulate but stay honest.
Sure, and I've done this to, but there's basically zero chance of anyone doing that at a larger scale. What we want is for the level of friction required to acquire and play a legitimate copy of a game in an emulator to be at least somewhat comparable to the effort required to find and download a pirated copy.
People who play on real hardware are much more likely than emulator users to track down actual games. I suspect that's because—even though piracy is readily available and quite easy on these consoles—using a real disc can feel a lot more straight forward.
> What we want is for the level of friction required to acquire and play a legitimate copy of a game in an emulator to be at least semi comparable to the effort required to find and download a pirated rip.
Yeah, unfortunately that seems pretty darn unlikely, especially where Nintendo wants to control the experience and make sure people are getting it exactly the way they design it. I can see why they wouldn't - the moment they start selling it like that it's a support nightmare and their perceived quality would probably plummet.
Yeah, unfortunately that seems pretty darn unlikely, especially where Nintendo wants to control the experience and make sure people are getting it exactly the way they design it. I can see why they wouldn't - the moment they start selling it like that it's a support nightmare and their perceived quality would probably plummet.
Okay, here's another example a la PS3 discs—it so happens that people have figured out how to download Wii U games directly from Nintendo's eShop servers. As in, any game on the eShop. You just need to track down a somewhat-sketchy Java app.
What if this capability was built into the official version of Cemu, but (!) with some sort of basic ownership check included? I'd imagine that if it's possible to pull games directly off of Nintendo's servers, there's a good chance it's also possible to query which games an account owns.
As far as I know, nobody ever looked into this. There's no interest.
If emulator developers want people to use their emulators legally, I think there are some more creative avenues that could be explored. Not in all cases, but at least in some of them.
What if this capability was built into the official version of Cemu, but (!) with some sort of basic ownership check included? I'd imagine that if it's possible to pull games directly off of Nintendo's servers, there's a good chance it's also possible to query which games an account owns.
As far as I know, nobody ever looked into this. There's no interest.
If emulator developers want people to use their emulators legally, I think there are some more creative avenues that could be explored. Not in all cases, but at least in some of them.
Emulator devs don't want to be sued by Nintendo, adding code to acquire games from their servers would be an incredibly risky move even if they were able to check what's owned on an account.
Is this substantially different from e.g. Dolphin downloading Virtual Console and WiiWare games? (In Dolphin's case, this works because Dolphin can emulate the Wii Shop channel. You used to be able to make purchases directly in Dolphin, and you can still redownload previously-purchased software.)
Yes because Dolphin is not distributing the rom/code for the Wii Shop channel. Users who decide to emulate it need that + various other things to make it work:
"Wii Shop Channel has functionalities that requires proper network certificates extracted from an IOS to work."
"Keys from a real Wii are required."
"a proper NAND is required."
https://wiki.dolphin-emu.org/index.php?title=Wii_Shop_Channe...
If Dolphin was distributing any of that they'd be getting a letter from Nintendo.
"Wii Shop Channel has functionalities that requires proper network certificates extracted from an IOS to work."
"Keys from a real Wii are required."
"a proper NAND is required."
https://wiki.dolphin-emu.org/index.php?title=Wii_Shop_Channe...
If Dolphin was distributing any of that they'd be getting a letter from Nintendo.
Nintendo doesn't - or at least shouldn't - have the right to use the threat of legal action to shut down public discussions they dislike. This is the exact purpose of anti-SLAPP statutes. "Protect their IP", sure, but that means taking action against people who violate their authoritative copyright on the programs themselves, not threatening action against those who merely use brief gameplay footage clips in a highly transformative way.
I wouldn't have known about this if not for the take down, now I am interested in purchasing a Steam Deck.
You could always play on PC with the same emulator. If you want a handheld device to play Switch games, the Switch is lighter and cheaper (though I suppose you'll have to pay for the games).
There are orders of magnitude more games available for emulation than are playable on the Switch. Nintendo has really dropped the ball on making their back catalog available legitimately.
> Nintendo has really dropped the ball on making their back catalog available legitimately.
people are so used to companies squeezing the last cent out of everything that when this happens it seems weird. instead of considering that nintendo has a very clear strategy of what to do with their old games and where to focus their efforts they just think they are being dumb and unservicing.
people are so used to companies squeezing the last cent out of everything that when this happens it seems weird. instead of considering that nintendo has a very clear strategy of what to do with their old games and where to focus their efforts they just think they are being dumb and unservicing.
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If people were showing you how to bypass Steam and download games for free do you really think Valve wouldn't use DCMA to have it removed ?
Because I can't think of any business who would tolerate this.
Because I can't think of any business who would tolerate this.
I seriously doubt they would. Gabe Newell, Valve's owner, has talked about how piracy is a service problem. Steam is wildly successful even though most of the games on the service either have no DRM or Steam's easily cracked one.
There's also a YT video from over a year ago with over 250k views with a title about pirating games, which I imagine would've gotten taken down if Valve cared since it references Steam specifically.
There's also a YT video from over a year ago with over 250k views with a title about pirating games, which I imagine would've gotten taken down if Valve cared since it references Steam specifically.
I can easily pirate most games on Steam. I don't, because they provide a good service and I believe game creators should be paid for their work. I will never buy another Nintendo game or device because they are very anti-consumer in too many ways that are off-putting to me, and I don't like buying locked down hardware. So emulation on the Steam Deck it is :)
False equivalence.
These videos aren't showing how to download games for free.
These videos aren't showing how to download games for free.
Emulation, unlike software piracy, is not illegal.
This isn't only a copyright issue. Nintendo can also complain that these videos create a likelihood of confusion regarding an association between Nintendo and Steam Deck. That's a trademark issue, not copyright.
Before you say, "No reasonable person would believe that Switch games running on Steam Deck are authorized by Nintendo," that's an argument that you raise when you are sued for trademark infringement. No one wants that, so they take the videos down.
Before you say, "No reasonable person would believe that Switch games running on Steam Deck are authorized by Nintendo," that's an argument that you raise when you are sued for trademark infringement. No one wants that, so they take the videos down.
Nintendo has a history of being very anti-emulation (see https://www.nintendo.com.au/legal/information).
With their stance it's no wonder their own first-party emulators are so poorly made.
With their stance it's no wonder their own first-party emulators are so poorly made.
> Also, the limited right which the Copyright Act gives to make backup copies of computer programs does not apply to Nintendo video games.
That seems like quite an assertion, largely untested in Australian courts I would assume, as our consumer watchdog is usually pretty good at ensuring we’re able to exercise what relatively few rights we do have in regards to purchased products.
That seems like quite an assertion, largely untested in Australian courts I would assume, as our consumer watchdog is usually pretty good at ensuring we’re able to exercise what relatively few rights we do have in regards to purchased products.
> does not apply to Nintendo video games
Nintendo's opinion is obviously false and easily ignored.
Nintendo's opinion is obviously false and easily ignored.
As someone who has the Steam Link, a PSTV (the old one), and a switch, the switch is the only one with anything approaching "turn it on and play a game". I only play the switch 'docked', on a large screen. The steam controller is, in my opinion, a really poor control device. The switch pro controller at least does normal controller-like things - although i think it's too small.
The PSTV generally has issues with updates or connectivity, but when it works it's roughly the same quality on my 720p projector as the switch and the steam link. And there's the answer to "why not just play the Playstation directly?" - in order to get sound that's synchronized with the screen, you need a way to get the video from the sound bar area where the playstation lives to the projector, which is a dozen feet away, on the ceiling. With the switch, the dock is next to the projector, and bluetooth sends audio fast enough for 99% of switch games. Steam link has built in BT as well. Sony doesn't. long range HDMI cables cost more than the PSTV did, so there's all the answers anyone could want.
When, once or twice a month i want to sit on the most comfortable chair in my house and play a game, it's the switch. I also try my best to only buy games with cartridges unless there's a serious sale and i have a gift card.
The PSTV generally has issues with updates or connectivity, but when it works it's roughly the same quality on my 720p projector as the switch and the steam link. And there's the answer to "why not just play the Playstation directly?" - in order to get sound that's synchronized with the screen, you need a way to get the video from the sound bar area where the playstation lives to the projector, which is a dozen feet away, on the ceiling. With the switch, the dock is next to the projector, and bluetooth sends audio fast enough for 99% of switch games. Steam link has built in BT as well. Sony doesn't. long range HDMI cables cost more than the PSTV did, so there's all the answers anyone could want.
When, once or twice a month i want to sit on the most comfortable chair in my house and play a game, it's the switch. I also try my best to only buy games with cartridges unless there's a serious sale and i have a gift card.
Nintendo really cares about the Nintendo experience, from their games all the way to the physical product people hold to experience them. And it shows. People talk about Nintendo as if a spell has been cast on them (much in the way Apple fans talk about Apple).
If you look into how much Nintendo spends on R&D and compare it to their revenues, you'll see they are _really_ serious about R&D. It would be detrimental to their business to allow that experience to be watered down.
There's nothing to be angry about. I dont think a product (at the scale and quality as Nintendo, Apple, etc) can exist in this world without it being in total control by the people who know how to create that experience. I'll happily pay more money to a company I trust to deliver quality (and fewer, polished options), much like people love Apple because it removes so many choices from people's lexicon.
Perhaps (I'll hesitantly say young) people don't realize that with freedom comes the more choices. And with more choices, you spend less time enjoying the product. You're a different market. You have time to research the hundreds of different flavors of Linux (as an example). There's nothing wrong with that; just be aware of what you're buying and dont complain when they aren't catering to your needs.
If you look into how much Nintendo spends on R&D and compare it to their revenues, you'll see they are _really_ serious about R&D. It would be detrimental to their business to allow that experience to be watered down.
There's nothing to be angry about. I dont think a product (at the scale and quality as Nintendo, Apple, etc) can exist in this world without it being in total control by the people who know how to create that experience. I'll happily pay more money to a company I trust to deliver quality (and fewer, polished options), much like people love Apple because it removes so many choices from people's lexicon.
Perhaps (I'll hesitantly say young) people don't realize that with freedom comes the more choices. And with more choices, you spend less time enjoying the product. You're a different market. You have time to research the hundreds of different flavors of Linux (as an example). There's nothing wrong with that; just be aware of what you're buying and dont complain when they aren't catering to your needs.
> There's nothing to be angry about.
Sure there is? This story isn't about Nintendo's curated consumer experience - that's perfectly fine - it's about flagrant abuse of the DMCA.
Sure there is? This story isn't about Nintendo's curated consumer experience - that's perfectly fine - it's about flagrant abuse of the DMCA.
I've made that observation in the past as well- it's quite interesting how Nintendo and Apple both resemble each other in creating iconic products that require intense amounts of control and lock-down. Also they both favor off-white coloring, or used to, for whatever reason.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8537649
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8537649
I disagree with the "young" part, to the extent that plenty of young people who are not power users understand this tradeoff viscerally just as much as older people do. The main difference I see is that people who are of working age tend to be more willing to pay money/a premium for someone to remove the need to make those choices.
Also I would actually say that older folks that have been around for the more open systems when the web was flourishing have a bias for things to always be this way, even if it was transient. Younger people who experience more locked down things throughout their existence come to expect it. So not sure about the young vs old
This comment rings hollow considering Nintendo's track record of bungling online multiplayer with high latencies, and how much of a train wreck Nintendo Switch Online's N64 emulation has been.
Nintendo is abusing DMCA to file claims against videos that are not actually infringing on their copyrights simply because they don't like the content. That is absolutely worth getting mad about.
That's great, if the person using the emulation doesn't like the experience then they'll (maybe) go buy the original Nintendo experience.
Corporate censorship is unacceptable
What is the legal theory under which they are asserting ownership of such videos? Could this be avoided by excluding all footage of in-game cutscenes?
It's hard to defend what Nintendo is doing because no one can actually buy old NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube, and Wii titles online legally.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Mario-Galaxy-Marketplace-Br...
I realize that's not a digital download, but these titles were never offered as digital downloads, and Nintendo isn't obligated to use the exact format which suits your needs. (And while Nintendo isn't directly profiting from used sales, high prices on the secondary market make their new games seem like good investments.)
(If we were talking about WiiWare exclusively, I'd have a very different attitude.)
I realize that's not a digital download, but these titles were never offered as digital downloads, and Nintendo isn't obligated to use the exact format which suits your needs. (And while Nintendo isn't directly profiting from used sales, high prices on the secondary market make their new games seem like good investments.)
(If we were talking about WiiWare exclusively, I'd have a very different attitude.)
> I realize that's not a digital download, but these titles were never offered as digital download
That's not a good excuse.
> Nintendo isn't obligated to use the exact format which suits your needs
You're right. They're just providing a really good argument for the continuation of mass piracy of their products.
That's not a good excuse.
> Nintendo isn't obligated to use the exact format which suits your needs
You're right. They're just providing a really good argument for the continuation of mass piracy of their products.
Why is Nintendo obliged to provide older content, or otherwise allow emulation?
If a company ceases to provide something, does that give you rights to acquire that something illegally?
If a company ceases to provide something, does that give you rights to acquire that something illegally?
> Why is Nintendo obliged to provide older content, or otherwise allow emulation?
Provide older content, no, "allow" emulation, yes. It's not even "allow", Nintendo doesn't have the authority to allow or disallow anyone from making, distributing and running emulators.
Provide older content, no, "allow" emulation, yes. It's not even "allow", Nintendo doesn't have the authority to allow or disallow anyone from making, distributing and running emulators.
They might not have the legal authority, but is their firm stance against emulators morally questionable? I may agree their methods are questionable, but I don't know if their stance is. Nintendo's stance against emulation seems consistent with their approach to game design and game management.
Is the question of whether a company's action is "morally questionable" dependant on that action being consistent with similar actions done by the same company in the past?
It doesn't give anyone the rights to anything. What it does though is provide a massive incentive for piracy. While I don't pirate myself, I can see many rational people do it for Nintendo products, and I don't have a good argument against it.
Nintendo is not obligated to offer services people would pay for, that's true.
Legally? No. Morally? Yes.
How are they morally obligated (or suggested) to provide access to older games?
I view the morality around IP law as an implicit contract with society. Actual theft is wrong because I am depriving someone of something without their consent. Pirating is wrong because it disincentives the production of further work. If there's no option to pay, then piracy doesn't affect the incentive structure at all, except possibly sending a a signal that there's still demand there.
They're not, but people are morally entitled to pirate them if they don't.
Everyone on HN when someone isn’t paying them for their product : “How dare they, everyone be mad at them with me.”
Everyone on HN when something they don’t want to pay for does the same thing: “How dare they, everyone be be mad at them with me.”
Everyone on HN when something they don’t want to pay for does the same thing: “How dare they, everyone be be mad at them with me.”
I'm honestly feeling like my perspective must be bubbled somehow. Can anyone point to an example of the DMCA doing anything that isn't just snuffing out the efforts of small communities or individuals in service of some megacorp's imagined potential extortion profits?
Someone is scared Switch got competition that can run Nintendo games that even Switch itself can't.
I wonder how the Steam Deck does with Switch games that run notoriously poorly, like Age of Calamity.
That's perhaps the saddest part of this ordeal, the Deck struggles to keep framerates consistent in all but the easiest to run games. From what I've seen most games are playable, but there are often stutters and interruptions because of things like shader compilation that seem to make the whole experience quite frustrating.
The other issue is that the manageable framerates only exist when the Deck is throwing everything it's got at the emulator. The advertised battery life of the Deck is shorter to begin with, and the chip constantly running at max power only makes that worse.
I doubt anyone is going to buy a Deck instead of a Switch to run Switch games. Any fan seeing clear footage of game performance should realise that to play Switch games, you should really just get a Switch. By killing the videos, they're giving off the signal that they're afraid of emulators encroaching on their territory, which will only drive Deck sales.
The other issue is that the manageable framerates only exist when the Deck is throwing everything it's got at the emulator. The advertised battery life of the Deck is shorter to begin with, and the chip constantly running at max power only makes that worse.
I doubt anyone is going to buy a Deck instead of a Switch to run Switch games. Any fan seeing clear footage of game performance should realise that to play Switch games, you should really just get a Switch. By killing the videos, they're giving off the signal that they're afraid of emulators encroaching on their territory, which will only drive Deck sales.
I'd be interested to know how it does with Breath of the Wild as well. Animal Crossing, too. We own both games, but the Switch's long load times hamper my fun. It's especially a problem in Animal Crossing.
Last time I looked, it took an uncommonly powerful computer to emulate BoTW, but I haven't looked in a long time.
Botw is quite easy to emulate these days. Even iGPUs like the one in my 5900H laptop can run it at 30+ fps at 1080p resolution.
My weekend plans have changed.
Note that OP is probably talking about emulating it through CEMU, the Wii U emulator instead of a switch one.
Make sure you also install all the DLC and Second Wind, the fan expansion pack.
It wouldn't be any different than PC. the steam deck is essentially x86 squeezed into the format of a switch/gameboy/handheld_x
Not really can't, moreso won't. It's embarrassing how small their retro games lineup is, so long after launch. And yet they're raking it in, because their extremely low quality online offering is so cheap that it doesn't matter to most.
This was finally the article to get me to buy the Steam Deck, since if i can do switch emulation... I'm sure I can get it to emulate most everything else I would want it for (legacy stuff, you feel me?), and that's all i really want :)
This is why peertube and other are so important. Despite all the garbage hate stuff on there, just ignore the loonies and look for the good stuff.
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It’s almost like they don’t want users playing their exclusive titles on a competing, similar product.
How dare they
How dare they
Nintendo didn’t remove anything. YouTube removed them after Nintendo asked them to. Yes, I understand how DMCA tends to work but nobody other than YouTube can effectively remove videos.
(Obvious you most readers here I assume but it’s not just a headline issue - the same framing appears in TFA)
(Obvious you most readers here I assume but it’s not just a headline issue - the same framing appears in TFA)
Nintendo is removing nothing on Youtube. It's Youtube who is removing content at Nintendo's request. Subtle but important difference. You can be mad at Nintendo, but you should then also be mad at Google the exact same way.
Valve should put some effort on preventing emulation on this device. It’s going to hurt them as well.
Wtf is that title, they remove nothing, Google remove videos
Where is dang yo?
This adoration for japanese companies is dangerous, the west really want to go extinct
Where is dang yo?
This adoration for japanese companies is dangerous, the west really want to go extinct
The Steam deck doesn't just threaten the outdated hardware of the switch in terms of games and gaming performance, it threatens Nintendo's platform on its own turf.
Nintendo can't compete with the Steam deck on hardware terms or even game availability. Brand exclusives and a low console price are all it's got, and they seem to know that that's not enough to keep all of their customers glued to their platform.