Ask HN: Beating depression with or without anti-depressants?
387 comments
PLEASE do not read any of these people's advice. Talk to a MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL, preferably a DOCTOR. DO NOT trust your mental health to strangers on the internet, be it reddit, or hacker news, or whatever.
If you are based in the US and live nearby a university they usually have good counseling services and the infrastructure to refer people even if you're not attending the school. Search "{school} counseling services" on google.
If you are based in the US and live nearby a university they usually have good counseling services and the infrastructure to refer people even if you're not attending the school. Search "{school} counseling services" on google.
I think the reason you are getting so many "I disagree" responses is because many of us have had awful experiences when it comes to medical professionals and mental health.
It's important to understand the economic pressures in psychiatry. I went to see a psychiatrist, who prescribed me antidepressants. They helped give be a baseline level of energy to get me out of my acute depression, but they addressed none of my underlying issues that caused me to get depressed in the first place, and a couple years later I was right back in the depths again. And I'm fine if my dr's economic model meant he couldn't do psychotherapy with me, but he never recommended I get therapy, and that's what I'm so bitter about regarding him.
I've heard it said that giving antidepressants to a depressed person, without any therapy, is like giving amphetamines to a tired person: yes, they may temporarily cure your "tiredness", but what you really need is to go to sleep.
So while I don't think OP should take detailed advice from random strangers, he should be aware of his options. Talk to a therapist first to see if they can uncover what some of the root cause issues are. Be open to medication - some mental issues really are largely organic in nature, but a good doctor and therapist will know they are just one tool to improve your mental health.
It's important to understand the economic pressures in psychiatry. I went to see a psychiatrist, who prescribed me antidepressants. They helped give be a baseline level of energy to get me out of my acute depression, but they addressed none of my underlying issues that caused me to get depressed in the first place, and a couple years later I was right back in the depths again. And I'm fine if my dr's economic model meant he couldn't do psychotherapy with me, but he never recommended I get therapy, and that's what I'm so bitter about regarding him.
I've heard it said that giving antidepressants to a depressed person, without any therapy, is like giving amphetamines to a tired person: yes, they may temporarily cure your "tiredness", but what you really need is to go to sleep.
So while I don't think OP should take detailed advice from random strangers, he should be aware of his options. Talk to a therapist first to see if they can uncover what some of the root cause issues are. Be open to medication - some mental issues really are largely organic in nature, but a good doctor and therapist will know they are just one tool to improve your mental health.
> I think the reason you are getting so many "I disagree" responses is because many of us have had awful experiences when it comes to medical professionals and mental health.
> I've heard it said that giving antidepressants to a depressed person, without any therapy, is like giving amphetamines to a tired person: yes, they may temporarily cure your "tiredness", but what you really need is to go to sleep.
I don't even know where to start with this comment. This whole thread should be booted waaaaay off HN.
A few people have problems with medical professionals. It's true, assuming you're in america, we're definitely not the best. But you find a few 1,000 people online with bad experiences (obviously, because people with good experiences have moved on and don't spend their time researching that issue) and assume you have a complete picture but you're only looking through a pinhole of information returned with biased search results. You probably aren't googling, "how many people have gotten their lives back after using anti-depressants?"
> he should be aware of his options.
Yeah fine, be aware. Talk to professionals, get second and third opinions if necessary. Take a holistic approach to your well-being. But please lets not glorify google medicine here.
> I've heard it said that giving antidepressants to a depressed person, without any therapy, is like giving amphetamines to a tired person: yes, they may temporarily cure your "tiredness", but what you really need is to go to sleep.
I don't even know where to start with this comment. This whole thread should be booted waaaaay off HN.
A few people have problems with medical professionals. It's true, assuming you're in america, we're definitely not the best. But you find a few 1,000 people online with bad experiences (obviously, because people with good experiences have moved on and don't spend their time researching that issue) and assume you have a complete picture but you're only looking through a pinhole of information returned with biased search results. You probably aren't googling, "how many people have gotten their lives back after using anti-depressants?"
> he should be aware of his options.
Yeah fine, be aware. Talk to professionals, get second and third opinions if necessary. Take a holistic approach to your well-being. But please lets not glorify google medicine here.
I'm not glorifying Dr. Google, but I damn as hell am sure not going to take the "just shut up and listen to your doctor" advice.
Heck, I stated off the bat that antidepressants did help me. I'm not "anti-antidepressant" at all. But I do understand the economic forces at play means that plenty of "medical professionals" are more than happy to charge $200+ for a 20 minute meds management consultation, simply because it's faster/easier than dealing with underlying issues.
As for your "This whole thread should be booted waaaaay off HN" comment, the anger people are responding to is lots of us have had horrible experiences, but we're just told to "shut up and listen to your doctor". How do you think the whole opioid epidemic came about? Huge parts of the medical establishment were more than happy to get their commission, people's well-being be damned.
Heck, I stated off the bat that antidepressants did help me. I'm not "anti-antidepressant" at all. But I do understand the economic forces at play means that plenty of "medical professionals" are more than happy to charge $200+ for a 20 minute meds management consultation, simply because it's faster/easier than dealing with underlying issues.
As for your "This whole thread should be booted waaaaay off HN" comment, the anger people are responding to is lots of us have had horrible experiences, but we're just told to "shut up and listen to your doctor". How do you think the whole opioid epidemic came about? Huge parts of the medical establishment were more than happy to get their commission, people's well-being be damned.
I had a horrible experience with a psychiatrist.
Then a great experience with another psychiatrist who managed to get me to function just enough for me to go see a psychologist who not only "cured" me but gave me a superpower of being resilient against life's wraths.
So your mileage may vary.
To whom might be reading this: don't give up. It sucks but sometimes we get unlucky and need to change doctors.
Then a great experience with another psychiatrist who managed to get me to function just enough for me to go see a psychologist who not only "cured" me but gave me a superpower of being resilient against life's wraths.
So your mileage may vary.
To whom might be reading this: don't give up. It sucks but sometimes we get unlucky and need to change doctors.
>superpower of being resilient against life's wraths.
how?
how?
Therapy changed the way I see life and toned down my expectations.
I live less in the future and more in the present.
I judge myself less and feel emotions more.
I live less in the future and more in the present.
I judge myself less and feel emotions more.
Can you give an example of how that improvement manifests itself in a bad situation?
Intellectually I am already well aware that my frame of mind is often the main issue and that I could simply choose not to be bothered by something - but that realization is a "system 2" thought which doesn't arrive until "system 1" has already derailed my whole day.
Intellectually I am already well aware that my frame of mind is often the main issue and that I could simply choose not to be bothered by something - but that realization is a "system 2" thought which doesn't arrive until "system 1" has already derailed my whole day.
Tone down expectations.
This is the silver bullet in my opinion.
How do you define fairness, rethink it and tone down your expectations.
How do you define love / relationships? Rethink it and tone down your expectations.
How do you define work / career / success? Rethink it and tone down your expectations.
I honestly believe this is a huge help.
A therapist who is a good fit for you is very hard to find. Learning about the skills you need to reorganize the way you view yourself and the world, simpler and the solution which a good therapist will help you with.
As someone who has suffered from depression and been negatively impacted by bad medical interactions for this and other conditions, the only choice is to do the work myself.
This is the silver bullet in my opinion.
How do you define fairness, rethink it and tone down your expectations.
How do you define love / relationships? Rethink it and tone down your expectations.
How do you define work / career / success? Rethink it and tone down your expectations.
I honestly believe this is a huge help.
A therapist who is a good fit for you is very hard to find. Learning about the skills you need to reorganize the way you view yourself and the world, simpler and the solution which a good therapist will help you with.
As someone who has suffered from depression and been negatively impacted by bad medical interactions for this and other conditions, the only choice is to do the work myself.
>Tone down expectations.
This sounds absolutely terrible. Something not to far from victim blaming.
Don't have a home? Learn how to be happy homeless! Husband gave you a black eye? Tone down your expectations!
This sounds absolutely terrible. Something not to far from victim blaming.
Don't have a home? Learn how to be happy homeless! Husband gave you a black eye? Tone down your expectations!
"expectations are the thief of joy".
misquote.
The correct quote is ”COMPARISON IS THE THIEF OF JOY.” – THEODORE ROOSEVELT
"Comparison is the thief of joy" - As quoted in Becoming a Great School (2013) by Cooper, Gustafson and Salah, p. ix"
Nothing wrong with expectations, ambitions, drive.
The correct quote is ”COMPARISON IS THE THIEF OF JOY.” – THEODORE ROOSEVELT
"Comparison is the thief of joy" - As quoted in Becoming a Great School (2013) by Cooper, Gustafson and Salah, p. ix"
Nothing wrong with expectations, ambitions, drive.
> But you find a few 1,000 people online with bad experiences (...) and assume you have a complete picture but you're only looking through a pinhole of information returned with biased search results.
Oh I know a good story.
I know a woman who unfortunately isn't the most educated person in the world and happens to have a nasty health issue where both her feet are all swollen up and makes her hard to walk around.
She's been seeing doctors left and right to solve or mitigate her condition.
One time, when she went to an appointment at the local hospital, her doctor handed her a form for her to sign and told her just to sign on the dotted line and don't worry about it.
The form was a consent form to amputate both her legs.
I happened to come across her when she was going to get a second opinion with the very form in her hands, completely furious.
She still has both her legs, even though she still suffers from the same issue.
Oddly enough, the hospital which handed out the leg amputation form also had a malpractice suite where they amputated the wrong leg of a patient.
Moral of the story: even though medical professionals are expected to be more knowledgeable about health topics, they are still human and far from infallible. More importantly, ultimately you're the person responsible for your personal health, and you need to have a say on what's done with your life based on the info that medical professionals make available to you. If you do not take an active role on these decisions on your health, others will eventually make these decisions for you, and they may not be good or have your best interests in mind.
Oh I know a good story.
I know a woman who unfortunately isn't the most educated person in the world and happens to have a nasty health issue where both her feet are all swollen up and makes her hard to walk around.
She's been seeing doctors left and right to solve or mitigate her condition.
One time, when she went to an appointment at the local hospital, her doctor handed her a form for her to sign and told her just to sign on the dotted line and don't worry about it.
The form was a consent form to amputate both her legs.
I happened to come across her when she was going to get a second opinion with the very form in her hands, completely furious.
She still has both her legs, even though she still suffers from the same issue.
Oddly enough, the hospital which handed out the leg amputation form also had a malpractice suite where they amputated the wrong leg of a patient.
Moral of the story: even though medical professionals are expected to be more knowledgeable about health topics, they are still human and far from infallible. More importantly, ultimately you're the person responsible for your personal health, and you need to have a say on what's done with your life based on the info that medical professionals make available to you. If you do not take an active role on these decisions on your health, others will eventually make these decisions for you, and they may not be good or have your best interests in mind.
>A few people have problems with medical professionals.
>"Death by medical error or accident is the nation's leading cause of accidental death"
Trust the "leading cause of accidental death".
Medical training is extremely limited. Physicians literally don't understand how any of the drugs they prescribe work, and the standard operating procedure is to memorize 2-3 drugs out of one class and never prescribe anything else in that class.
Physicians are constrained by: their hospital policy, HMO incentives, civil liability, criminal liability, boards, legislation, insurance rates, personal biases, past unique experiences, influence of their mentors, weather, bad knees, bad marriage, whatever. Sometimes they are just having a shit day. Some keep practising to the point they are so senile they attempt to sign a prescription with the syringe needle (witnessed that myself).
They are just humans. Rather greedy humans, most of the time. They will never be fully frank with you.
3rd opinion? People often seen 5+ physicians, and spend 10+ years to get a proper diagnosis.
>"Death by medical error or accident is the nation's leading cause of accidental death"
Trust the "leading cause of accidental death".
Medical training is extremely limited. Physicians literally don't understand how any of the drugs they prescribe work, and the standard operating procedure is to memorize 2-3 drugs out of one class and never prescribe anything else in that class.
Physicians are constrained by: their hospital policy, HMO incentives, civil liability, criminal liability, boards, legislation, insurance rates, personal biases, past unique experiences, influence of their mentors, weather, bad knees, bad marriage, whatever. Sometimes they are just having a shit day. Some keep practising to the point they are so senile they attempt to sign a prescription with the syringe needle (witnessed that myself).
They are just humans. Rather greedy humans, most of the time. They will never be fully frank with you.
3rd opinion? People often seen 5+ physicians, and spend 10+ years to get a proper diagnosis.
I've never had a serious health issue, so maybe doctors are better with them, but my experience is doctors don't ask enough questions to find the best answers.
Severe pain in testicles: ER doctor asks about blunt trauma, sees nothing, prescribes antibiotics. Family doctor later agrees. Year later, same pain! See a nurse-in-training, second question: "When was the last time you ejaculated?" ....oh... Sure enough, no antibiotics necessary.
Tapeworm-looking thing found wiping my bum: doctor ask about look and itchiness, consults a parasite specialist. They come back with pinworms, because tapeworms don't just come out. Prescribed a medicine that deals with both, and I look it up. I read the drug is perfectly safe, and also "do not use traditional remedies like pumpkin seeds, which contain trace amount of a substance that puts tapeworms to sleep" ...oh... I had just spent two days snacking through a 4 lbs. of pumpkin seeds on a nut-free whitewater trip, so it was a tapeworm.
Ball of foot hurts: Doctor stumped, sends to get orthotics. Orthotics get made custom. Years later, I try on a pair of EE wide shoes ...oh... right, wide shoes that makes sense.
Burning left side of face: wasted so much time with a few specialists, telling everybody that it doesn't really bother me I just want to be sure it's like a brain tumor. No answers from no body. Then one day, a bunch of wax falls out of left ear and ...oh... it clicks; my face burns when my ears get too full of all that wax I make.
So doctors don't always get the full picture either, because how could they surface every relevant detail in 5 minutes!
Severe pain in testicles: ER doctor asks about blunt trauma, sees nothing, prescribes antibiotics. Family doctor later agrees. Year later, same pain! See a nurse-in-training, second question: "When was the last time you ejaculated?" ....oh... Sure enough, no antibiotics necessary.
Tapeworm-looking thing found wiping my bum: doctor ask about look and itchiness, consults a parasite specialist. They come back with pinworms, because tapeworms don't just come out. Prescribed a medicine that deals with both, and I look it up. I read the drug is perfectly safe, and also "do not use traditional remedies like pumpkin seeds, which contain trace amount of a substance that puts tapeworms to sleep" ...oh... I had just spent two days snacking through a 4 lbs. of pumpkin seeds on a nut-free whitewater trip, so it was a tapeworm.
Ball of foot hurts: Doctor stumped, sends to get orthotics. Orthotics get made custom. Years later, I try on a pair of EE wide shoes ...oh... right, wide shoes that makes sense.
Burning left side of face: wasted so much time with a few specialists, telling everybody that it doesn't really bother me I just want to be sure it's like a brain tumor. No answers from no body. Then one day, a bunch of wax falls out of left ear and ...oh... it clicks; my face burns when my ears get too full of all that wax I make.
So doctors don't always get the full picture either, because how could they surface every relevant detail in 5 minutes!
I'm sorry but you seem to have some really weird issues.
Like "I worry about your executive function" weird.
Like "I worry about your executive function" weird.
Haha, thanks for your "concern". Spread over some 20-30 otherwise healthy active years, seems par for the course.
I found strangers online to be more effective than doctors, simply because they read to much on the matter, then they interact too much with you.
I basically got diagnosed online by 2 different people about 2 different issues, one is biological, and the other is mental. And they were right. This is nerds out there who read about topics constantly, way more than the average doctor, not even close. So a stranger can help.
Also depends on where you are located, doctors can be dogmatic, there is countries that give antibiotics before extracting teeth, and there is those who don't. Countries who believe ADHD can stay into adulthood and go undiagnosed, and others who believe it is impossible to have ADHD as an adult.
In the ADHD case, depends on who what countries are right, some group might be living a lie taking meds for an illness that doesn't exist, or the other group is suffering being undiagnosed with ADHD despite seeking help, the doctor just tell them its not possible to have ADHD.
I would rather research and try to solve my issues over hand my situation to the medical zeitgeist of my country. Also I am sure if I give myself days of research, thinking, talking to people, comparing situations over some doctor talking to me for 15 minutes then giving me the two meds given to everyone who enter that door (SSRIs and benzos), I might probably be up into something.
I will never stop researching my medical issues, I will never trust my doctors fully, I will always google, research, ask, ask second opinions. Some doctors care more than others, some doctors are capable more than others, you have no idea which ones the RNG gave you.
I basically got diagnosed online by 2 different people about 2 different issues, one is biological, and the other is mental. And they were right. This is nerds out there who read about topics constantly, way more than the average doctor, not even close. So a stranger can help.
Also depends on where you are located, doctors can be dogmatic, there is countries that give antibiotics before extracting teeth, and there is those who don't. Countries who believe ADHD can stay into adulthood and go undiagnosed, and others who believe it is impossible to have ADHD as an adult.
In the ADHD case, depends on who what countries are right, some group might be living a lie taking meds for an illness that doesn't exist, or the other group is suffering being undiagnosed with ADHD despite seeking help, the doctor just tell them its not possible to have ADHD.
I would rather research and try to solve my issues over hand my situation to the medical zeitgeist of my country. Also I am sure if I give myself days of research, thinking, talking to people, comparing situations over some doctor talking to me for 15 minutes then giving me the two meds given to everyone who enter that door (SSRIs and benzos), I might probably be up into something.
I will never stop researching my medical issues, I will never trust my doctors fully, I will always google, research, ask, ask second opinions. Some doctors care more than others, some doctors are capable more than others, you have no idea which ones the RNG gave you.
This is a great approach
This isn't a video game. Your sample size of one is not indicative of the greater population. Don't cause people to mess up their health by appealing to the notion that they can do better than trained medical professionals. This is dangerous.
Unfortunately, psychiatry / psychology is currently barely a science. It still doesn’t have a repeatable theoretical model yet for some odd reason there are people who treat it as a science with real laws. Will it mature one day into a real science? Sure, but it’s dependent on several other fields maturing so it won’t be overnight. Consequently, I don’t blame anyone for doing more research or going with alternatives, especially since the economics of mental healthcare also go against the welfare of those who need it.
Congratulations on having a frankly privileged experience with the medical system.
The only thing dangerous here is you, acting like people shouldn't advocate for themselves to every extent their intelligence allows.
The only thing dangerous here is you, acting like people shouldn't advocate for themselves to every extent their intelligence allows.
I don’t know what you hope to accomplish by saying this, but it’s not having any effect. Trained medical professionals have to handle thousands of pathologies, each with dozens of possible treatments. The search space alone should make someone at least question whether their Zocdoc is really giving it their wholehearted effort, or if they’re just doing a day job like all of us.
I agree that someone should go to the doctor. But almost everyone agrees on that, and yet very few actually go. I didn’t, for a decade, and mostly out of laziness (not going is after all the default option). Going around commanding people not to do X is only going to make them X.
I agree that someone should go to the doctor. But almost everyone agrees on that, and yet very few actually go. I didn’t, for a decade, and mostly out of laziness (not going is after all the default option). Going around commanding people not to do X is only going to make them X.
The guy who came in last in his medical class. In the worst medical school in the country.
..is somehow always better...than everyone else? Always?
Professional opinion is just that, an opinion. Opinion of potentially the worst medical student, from the worst medical school. but because they got a prescription pad, they are now smarter than anyone else in America. Got it.
Health is ultimately our own decision, and ours alone.
..is somehow always better...than everyone else? Always?
Professional opinion is just that, an opinion. Opinion of potentially the worst medical student, from the worst medical school. but because they got a prescription pad, they are now smarter than anyone else in America. Got it.
Health is ultimately our own decision, and ours alone.
The worst doctor still passed their exams, and has way more medical knowledge than the average person
I wouldn't discount design advice of a qualified engineer because of the musings of a random person, so why would I do the same for a doctor.
Too many people in this thread are just going "software developers don't know what they're talking about. I had a bad experience with software once, so no developers have a clue, they're just after money"
I wouldn't discount design advice of a qualified engineer because of the musings of a random person, so why would I do the same for a doctor.
Too many people in this thread are just going "software developers don't know what they're talking about. I had a bad experience with software once, so no developers have a clue, they're just after money"
Medicine drop out rates: 15-18%
Engineering drop out rates: 40-50%
Math drop out rates: 47%
Dumbest doctor is stupider than avg math/eng. They just tend to be less autistic on avg.
"The American Society for Engineering Education (ASEE) found that between 40% to 50% of engineering students drop out or change their majors."
"So, what is the dropout rate for medical school? In a standard, single four-year program, that would put the medical school dropout rate at between 15.7 percent and 18.4 percent, confirms the AAMC."
"In mathematics, the dropout rate is even higher with 47% (U.S. college dropouts show comparable numbers; Chen, 2013)."
It's ok to question and discount doctors. Plenty of incompetent practitioners out there, well protected by powerful lobby, trade union, massive liability umbrellas.
They even passed laws to reduce their own liability.
I'm sure they needed that because they are so excellent at their job, they are only the leading cause of accidental deaths.
Dumbest doctor is stupider than avg math/eng. They just tend to be less autistic on avg.
"The American Society for Engineering Education (ASEE) found that between 40% to 50% of engineering students drop out or change their majors."
"So, what is the dropout rate for medical school? In a standard, single four-year program, that would put the medical school dropout rate at between 15.7 percent and 18.4 percent, confirms the AAMC."
"In mathematics, the dropout rate is even higher with 47% (U.S. college dropouts show comparable numbers; Chen, 2013)."
It's ok to question and discount doctors. Plenty of incompetent practitioners out there, well protected by powerful lobby, trade union, massive liability umbrellas.
They even passed laws to reduce their own liability.
I'm sure they needed that because they are so excellent at their job, they are only the leading cause of accidental deaths.
You have to complete a number of prerequisites to be considered, never mind accepted, into a medical school. For engineering the barrier is much much lower, hence the higher dropout rate.
The prerequisites is a very American thing. Most of the world just does medicine as an undergrad, and physicians are just as good. The US pre-req system, as well as the control over residency spots is just supply management to ensure compensation remains high.
However, with supply management of physicians, comes responsibility to ensure reliabile supply to replenish ranks to avoid surprises, and thus all efforts are made to ensure that students can pass. You simply can't have 70% fewer graduates one year, and 170% next.
"With an admit rate of 7%, it is easy to understand why the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine is sometimes viewed from the outside as highly competitive."
"Massachusetts Institute of Technology/Acceptance rate - 7.3%"
If you have good memory, and not a total dolt, you can be a physician. Analytic ability is a tertiary concern.
However, with supply management of physicians, comes responsibility to ensure reliabile supply to replenish ranks to avoid surprises, and thus all efforts are made to ensure that students can pass. You simply can't have 70% fewer graduates one year, and 170% next.
"With an admit rate of 7%, it is easy to understand why the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine is sometimes viewed from the outside as highly competitive."
"Massachusetts Institute of Technology/Acceptance rate - 7.3%"
If you have good memory, and not a total dolt, you can be a physician. Analytic ability is a tertiary concern.
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Sorry, you are very very wrong about this. Have you ever talked to a _medical_ professional about depression or any mental health issue? They generally don't know what they're doing. Medical professionals only have one tool in their arsenal for depression: antidepressants. So a medical doctor will likely prescribe them, whether that's appropriate or not. Antidepressants are no joke. Sometimes they can help, but they can also cause really strange side effects, like increasing the possibility of suicide. And does the average doctor monitor all their patients regularly to make sure they're not having suicidal thoughts? Nope. And doctors generally won't know anything about the difficulty of getting _off_ the antidepressant if it didn't work.
Asking for advice on the internet is a very valid strategy, given the terrible state of mental health care in the US.
Asking for advice on the internet is a very valid strategy, given the terrible state of mental health care in the US.
Not OP, but I have. If you go to a family doctor in the US, they really aren’t qualified or trained in treating mental health.
My psychiatrist was fairly clear on what was what and which things needed to be treated with therapy and which medication could help with. (Medication helps symptoms, it does not cure.) Finding the right medication would take months or years and will not solve everything. There will be side effects that I needed to monitor and report. And so on.
When seeing any doctor, you are your own best advocate. It helps to come prepared, knowing your family history, and things you are struggling with.
Researching medications can help, but most people are not qualified to use them without supervision, myself included.
Note: This is assuming you need medication. It was fairly clear in my case medication was absolutely required to at least treat psychosis.
I prefer to refer friends to a therapist or psychologist, who do not prescribe medication.
My psychiatrist was fairly clear on what was what and which things needed to be treated with therapy and which medication could help with. (Medication helps symptoms, it does not cure.) Finding the right medication would take months or years and will not solve everything. There will be side effects that I needed to monitor and report. And so on.
When seeing any doctor, you are your own best advocate. It helps to come prepared, knowing your family history, and things you are struggling with.
Researching medications can help, but most people are not qualified to use them without supervision, myself included.
Note: This is assuming you need medication. It was fairly clear in my case medication was absolutely required to at least treat psychosis.
I prefer to refer friends to a therapist or psychologist, who do not prescribe medication.
Granted everyone's case is different, but my doctor went forward with medications only as part of a comprehensive plan to deal with my mental health which included seeing a therapist and committing to an exercise program (it sounded silly to be before, but exercise can be for some people can be nature's antidepressant). I'm on a 6 week to 3-month schedule of follow-up visits with my doctor to keep track of where I'm at mentally. Yes, there are absolutely doctors out there that will toss pills to people and send them on their way, but I don't think it's the majority. I also vet doctors the same way I would a mechanic or anyone else who is going to be doing important work for me. It can be hard, but there are doctors who care about doing the right thing out there.
> Sometimes they can help, but they can also cause really strange side effects, like increasing the possibility of suicide
This type of side-effect is thought to be mediated by 5HT2C activation when initially starting SSRIs, however, over the period of about two weeks, 5HT2C receptors downregulate and reach an equilibrium that can cause the effect to diminish or go away entirely. As an aside, there's research that suggests that abnormal amounts of upregulated 5HT2C receptors are present in suicide victims.
One of the reasons Prozac is recommended as a first line of treatment, besides the fact that it has a long half-life, is because of its 5HT2C antagonism that can block 5HT2C from extracellular serotonin activation from SSRI effects.
There are also plenty of antidepressants that don't typically cause that particular problem, especially if they aren't typical SSRIs or serotonin agonists.
This type of side-effect is thought to be mediated by 5HT2C activation when initially starting SSRIs, however, over the period of about two weeks, 5HT2C receptors downregulate and reach an equilibrium that can cause the effect to diminish or go away entirely. As an aside, there's research that suggests that abnormal amounts of upregulated 5HT2C receptors are present in suicide victims.
One of the reasons Prozac is recommended as a first line of treatment, besides the fact that it has a long half-life, is because of its 5HT2C antagonism that can block 5HT2C from extracellular serotonin activation from SSRI effects.
There are also plenty of antidepressants that don't typically cause that particular problem, especially if they aren't typical SSRIs or serotonin agonists.
> Sometimes they can help, but they can also cause really strange side effects, like increasing the possibility of suicide
FWIW, my understanding is this has little to do with the drugs and mostly to do with the recovery process.
In a deep depression, you might have suicidal thoughts, but lack the will to take action on those thoughts (because depression takes away your motivation). As you a person comes out of depression, they tend to recover their motivation before their suicidal thoughts dissipate. This creates a situation where a person with suicidal thoughts now has motivation - which means they have the potential motivation to take action on their suicidal thoughts.
The important nuance of this is anti-depressants don't necessarily make your suicidal thoughts _more_ suicidal. In fact, it's likely, anti-depressants are making your suicidal thoughts _less_ severe. However, they do increase your motivation before they can fully eliminate suicidal thoughts.
I'm not saying you should take an anti-dpressant willy-nilly. It's just BS to be fear mongering like this without considering why this situation happens.
FWIW, my understanding is this has little to do with the drugs and mostly to do with the recovery process.
In a deep depression, you might have suicidal thoughts, but lack the will to take action on those thoughts (because depression takes away your motivation). As you a person comes out of depression, they tend to recover their motivation before their suicidal thoughts dissipate. This creates a situation where a person with suicidal thoughts now has motivation - which means they have the potential motivation to take action on their suicidal thoughts.
The important nuance of this is anti-depressants don't necessarily make your suicidal thoughts _more_ suicidal. In fact, it's likely, anti-depressants are making your suicidal thoughts _less_ severe. However, they do increase your motivation before they can fully eliminate suicidal thoughts.
I'm not saying you should take an anti-dpressant willy-nilly. It's just BS to be fear mongering like this without considering why this situation happens.
In the beginning of SSRI consumption, it causes initial 5HT2C upregulation and activation, which can directly cause feelings of anxiety, dread, hopelessness, and restlessness/akathisia[1]. Over time, however, the body down regulates 5HT2C in response to its activation, and those symptoms tend to dissipate.
In a way, yes, there can be feelings induced that can provide the motivation and energy to go through with suicidal thoughts, but those unpleasant emotions aren't exactly triggered by an inherent will to die. Those who experience akathisia sometimes feel like the only way to rid themselves of the feeling is to end their lives.
I point this out because it might seem, or feel to those experiencing it themselves, that those suicidal thoughts are organic and what the person really wants, but they tend to be exacerbated directly by medication and can get better with time. I also point it out because there are ways to sidestep 5HT2C activation with different medications or combinations, it doesn't necessarily have to be inevitable.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akathisia
In a way, yes, there can be feelings induced that can provide the motivation and energy to go through with suicidal thoughts, but those unpleasant emotions aren't exactly triggered by an inherent will to die. Those who experience akathisia sometimes feel like the only way to rid themselves of the feeling is to end their lives.
I point this out because it might seem, or feel to those experiencing it themselves, that those suicidal thoughts are organic and what the person really wants, but they tend to be exacerbated directly by medication and can get better with time. I also point it out because there are ways to sidestep 5HT2C activation with different medications or combinations, it doesn't necessarily have to be inevitable.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akathisia
I didnt find any info on 5HT2C in the linked source above, not saying what you've said isn't true, just that I was interested and didn't find much info.
Here's Wikipedia's summary, there are sources cited in the article[1]:
> Research indicates that some suicide victims have an abnormally high number of 5-HT2C receptors in the prefrontal cortex.[13] Agomelatine, which is a 5-HT2C and 5-HT2B antagonist as well as a MT1 and MT2 agonist, is an effective antidepressant.[14][15] It has been called a norepinephrine-dopamine disinhibitor because antagonism of 5-HT2C receptors by agomelatine results in an increase of dopamine and norepinephrine activity in the frontal cortex. Conversely, many SSRIs (but not fluoxetine, which is a 5-HT2C antagonist[16]) indirectly stimulate 5-HT2C activity by increasing levels of serotonin in the synapse although the delayed mood elevation that is usually typical of SSRIs is usually paralleled by the downregulation of the 5-HT2C receptors.[17] Many atypical antipsychotics block 5-HT2C receptors, but their clinical use is limited by multiple undesirable actions on various neurotransmitters and receptors. Fluoxetine acts as a direct 5-HT2C antagonist in addition to inhibiting serotonin reuptake, however, the clinical significance of this action is variable.[16] Several tetracyclic antidepressants, including mirtazapine, are potent 5-HT2C antagonists; this action may contribute to their efficacy.
> An overactivity of 5-HT2C receptors may contribute to depressive and anxiety symptoms in a certain population of patients. Activation of 5-HT2C by serotonin is responsible for many of the negative side effects of SSRI and SNRI medications, such as sertraline, paroxetine, venlafaxine, and others. Some of the initial anxiety caused by SSRIs is due to excessive signalling at 5-HT2C. Over a period of 1–2 weeks, the receptor begins to downregulate, along with the downregulation of 5-HT2A, 5-HT1A, and other serotonin receptors. This downregulation parallels the onset of the clinical benefits of SSRIs. 5-HT2C receptors exhibit constitutive activity in vivo, and may retain the ability to influence neurotransmission in the absence of ligand occupancy. Thus, 5-HT2C receptors do not require binding by a ligand (serotonin) in order to exhibit influence on neurotransmission. Inverse agonists may be required to fully extinguish 5-HT2C constitutive activity, and may prove useful in the treatment of 5-HT2C-mediated conditions in the absence of typical serotonin activity.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-HT2C_receptor#Function
> Research indicates that some suicide victims have an abnormally high number of 5-HT2C receptors in the prefrontal cortex.[13] Agomelatine, which is a 5-HT2C and 5-HT2B antagonist as well as a MT1 and MT2 agonist, is an effective antidepressant.[14][15] It has been called a norepinephrine-dopamine disinhibitor because antagonism of 5-HT2C receptors by agomelatine results in an increase of dopamine and norepinephrine activity in the frontal cortex. Conversely, many SSRIs (but not fluoxetine, which is a 5-HT2C antagonist[16]) indirectly stimulate 5-HT2C activity by increasing levels of serotonin in the synapse although the delayed mood elevation that is usually typical of SSRIs is usually paralleled by the downregulation of the 5-HT2C receptors.[17] Many atypical antipsychotics block 5-HT2C receptors, but their clinical use is limited by multiple undesirable actions on various neurotransmitters and receptors. Fluoxetine acts as a direct 5-HT2C antagonist in addition to inhibiting serotonin reuptake, however, the clinical significance of this action is variable.[16] Several tetracyclic antidepressants, including mirtazapine, are potent 5-HT2C antagonists; this action may contribute to their efficacy.
> An overactivity of 5-HT2C receptors may contribute to depressive and anxiety symptoms in a certain population of patients. Activation of 5-HT2C by serotonin is responsible for many of the negative side effects of SSRI and SNRI medications, such as sertraline, paroxetine, venlafaxine, and others. Some of the initial anxiety caused by SSRIs is due to excessive signalling at 5-HT2C. Over a period of 1–2 weeks, the receptor begins to downregulate, along with the downregulation of 5-HT2A, 5-HT1A, and other serotonin receptors. This downregulation parallels the onset of the clinical benefits of SSRIs. 5-HT2C receptors exhibit constitutive activity in vivo, and may retain the ability to influence neurotransmission in the absence of ligand occupancy. Thus, 5-HT2C receptors do not require binding by a ligand (serotonin) in order to exhibit influence on neurotransmission. Inverse agonists may be required to fully extinguish 5-HT2C constitutive activity, and may prove useful in the treatment of 5-HT2C-mediated conditions in the absence of typical serotonin activity.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-HT2C_receptor#Function
> Have you ever talked to a _medical_ professional about depression or any mental health issue? They generally don't know what they're doing.
And you think a random stranger knows any better? I know firsthand that the medical profession has serious limitations in its understanding of and ability to treat depression, but no way in hell am I taking some rando's advice over that of any of the many doctor's I've seen.
And you think a random stranger knows any better? I know firsthand that the medical profession has serious limitations in its understanding of and ability to treat depression, but no way in hell am I taking some rando's advice over that of any of the many doctor's I've seen.
That makes no sense to me, if you're trying to deal with mental health problems and struggling you're going to be looking for new ideas from any source. Doctors are good at giving garden-variety medical advice that's validated by studies, but there's so many other ideas out there that they're not going to know about. Their background gives them expertise on what medicine says about mental health, not about the human experience itself.
Anecdotally I've been to therapists and doctors that were no help and I've read an article online [1] which was a tremendous help.
[1]: https://kajsotala.fi/2017/07/how-i-found-fixed-the-root-prob...
Anecdotally I've been to therapists and doctors that were no help and I've read an article online [1] which was a tremendous help.
[1]: https://kajsotala.fi/2017/07/how-i-found-fixed-the-root-prob...
Strangers on the internet are usually pretty good at helping you self-justify whatever it is you want to do, because no matter what position you take, whether it is a really good idea or not, there is always someone on the internet who agrees with you.
Fine, if that gets you taking action when you're depressed, so be it.
Anyway in discussions like this I feel like what it lost is that you will actually respond to how compelling the thing someone else is saying is. Like, it's not "oh a bunch of opinions, I'll get influenced by one randomly and it's probably wrong". It's "oh, a bunch of opinions, which explain why they think they're right and how well it worked for them, I'll incorporate that into my own understanding".
Anyway in discussions like this I feel like what it lost is that you will actually respond to how compelling the thing someone else is saying is. Like, it's not "oh a bunch of opinions, I'll get influenced by one randomly and it's probably wrong". It's "oh, a bunch of opinions, which explain why they think they're right and how well it worked for them, I'll incorporate that into my own understanding".
> Doctors are good at giving garden-variety medical advice that's validated by studies
I've found they're more often than not ignorant of the latest studies, as well. Doctors are put on a pedestal in our society that very few of them deserve. A solid 2/3s of the ones I've seen are over-confident, dismissive, and often peddling out of date information. The rare ones that truly focus on their field and put their patients above their egos are difficult to find and even harder to get to with average US insurance.
I've found they're more often than not ignorant of the latest studies, as well. Doctors are put on a pedestal in our society that very few of them deserve. A solid 2/3s of the ones I've seen are over-confident, dismissive, and often peddling out of date information. The rare ones that truly focus on their field and put their patients above their egos are difficult to find and even harder to get to with average US insurance.
How common are the ones that check their ego? 1 in 10?
You're a frontend engineer, not a doctor. You're not qualified to give advice on medicine.
They aren't writing a prescription for op, they are sharing anecdotal data. That's a reasonable thing to do.
Having had a critical infection repeatedly misdiagnosed until I finally went out of my way to pick a better professional, I don't buy the "just have faith in your doctor" argument.
Doctors are more like plumbers than we like to admit. There are good ones and bad ones, and it's hard to tell the difference. They do best when you can give them direction (cooperatively) and when you are willing to get a second opinion.
Having had a critical infection repeatedly misdiagnosed until I finally went out of my way to pick a better professional, I don't buy the "just have faith in your doctor" argument.
Doctors are more like plumbers than we like to admit. There are good ones and bad ones, and it's hard to tell the difference. They do best when you can give them direction (cooperatively) and when you are willing to get a second opinion.
So what? Everyone has had stories about misdiagnoses or not being taken seriously by doctors, etc. I had a condition that took a long time to get a fix until I changed my doctor and got a proper evaluation done. And that wasn't even for mental health, which the US is not particularly well known for. My doc would come in, listen for maybe 1-2 mins, prescribe some shit and leave. I had to take stuff into my own hands and drive 2 hours to another hospital to finally get something done.
Parent comment is not giving explicit medical instructions. All they're saying is "talk to a medical professional" isn't some miracle advice that always works, particularly for mental health. It's fine to give anecdotes as long as one holds them with a grain of salt.
Parent comment is not giving explicit medical instructions. All they're saying is "talk to a medical professional" isn't some miracle advice that always works, particularly for mental health. It's fine to give anecdotes as long as one holds them with a grain of salt.
So any support group is invalid then? AA? Smart Recovery? Addiction is a medical problem, so just talk to your doctor? If you have PTSD, don't talk to other people with PTSD, just isolate and talk to your doctor? If you have depression, don't talk to other people who have had depression, who might make you feel less alone, just talk to your doctor? Think through what you're saying.
Those support groups don't give advice about medicine.
Um, they kinda do. In my experience it's generally not "advice" in the same way a doctor gives it, but it's been more along the lines of, "I took X. Y happened." Not, "You should (not) take X because it (worked/didn't work) for me".
People keep saying we should _normalize_ talking about mental health, and what you're suggesting goes against that. If we were discussing heart health and someone were to talk about their exercise, diet and medication online, would you say, "Hey, wait a minute! You're not a doctor. You can't say that." Of course not. What you're advocating for is an overly paternalistic approach to mental health issues, as if people are too dumb to listen to different viewpoints and come to their own conclusions.
People keep saying we should _normalize_ talking about mental health, and what you're suggesting goes against that. If we were discussing heart health and someone were to talk about their exercise, diet and medication online, would you say, "Hey, wait a minute! You're not a doctor. You can't say that." Of course not. What you're advocating for is an overly paternalistic approach to mental health issues, as if people are too dumb to listen to different viewpoints and come to their own conclusions.
Weird, did you research them?
You are an engineer and not a public health researcher. You are not qualified to give advice on whether consulting a doctor is the right course of action.
I DISAGREE. For this reason: I was given antipressants by my (former) doctor for a moderate anxiety "phase". It was escitalopram. And it did well for me - within a day! When it came to end the medication, I was told to just stop taking it. Which I did. But I should not have - I had anxietiy "echoes" over the following YEAR, really weird stuff. So I started to read about the medication: Studies have shown the longer you take time to reduce it in steps (like 10% of the former dose) the better is the time after. But since this is burdensome, its rarely suggested and also people need to "cut" pills to have the exact dose for their reduction.
My current OPINION is: Until you have read studies and got some plausible experiences from people with the same medication, one doctor alone isn't a good source for taking medication.
I will only take medication in the future if life wouldn't managable without, but not for issues that just take time.
My current OPINION is: Until you have read studies and got some plausible experiences from people with the same medication, one doctor alone isn't a good source for taking medication.
I will only take medication in the future if life wouldn't managable without, but not for issues that just take time.
But as grandparent suggests - talking to a forum full of strangers is not doing research.
No, but it does give avenues to research.
I just want to echo the other commenter. You had a completely incompetent prescriber.
Tapering SSRIs is the normal unless a provider has alternative indication it shouldn't be done.
Tapering SSRIs is the normal unless a provider has alternative indication it shouldn't be done.
You had an incompetent prescriber.
Tapering doses for all sorts of medications are routinely done, and any pharmacy can handle such an rx. If they can't - you don't want to go to such a pharmacy anyway.
Tapering doses for all sorts of medications are routinely done, and any pharmacy can handle such an rx. If they can't - you don't want to go to such a pharmacy anyway.
Easy to say when you're in a major city/within the 100 mile border zone.
Unfortunately, you often have to travel at times to find good talent/expertise.
Some people move permanently, in order to obtain medical care. Sometimes, to another country.
Most compounding pharmacies will ship, and most physicians will only require one visit in person in 12 months.
Some people move permanently, in order to obtain medical care. Sometimes, to another country.
Most compounding pharmacies will ship, and most physicians will only require one visit in person in 12 months.
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TameAntelope(7)
Must every conversation about depression devolve into yelling? There’s not even any new information here.
No one with depression is going to read this and go “Oh, you’re right.” It’s self gratification disguised as help.
Everyone knows they really ought to see a doctor. There are plenty of reasons to be scared to. An untimely hospital visit bankrupted me thanks to no health insurance. My sleep doctor had to cut me a deal of only $50 per visit instead of the usual $150, and she really cared about me. I was part of a lucky few.
I think what rubs me wrong about your advice is that it’s positioned at the expense of all other advice. No one’s allowed to have an opinion except yours. Smart people like OP see right through such things, and it tends to push them away. Which is particularly troublesome when the advice is good, like yours is here.
No one with depression is going to read this and go “Oh, you’re right.” It’s self gratification disguised as help.
Everyone knows they really ought to see a doctor. There are plenty of reasons to be scared to. An untimely hospital visit bankrupted me thanks to no health insurance. My sleep doctor had to cut me a deal of only $50 per visit instead of the usual $150, and she really cared about me. I was part of a lucky few.
I think what rubs me wrong about your advice is that it’s positioned at the expense of all other advice. No one’s allowed to have an opinion except yours. Smart people like OP see right through such things, and it tends to push them away. Which is particularly troublesome when the advice is good, like yours is here.
This is really weird advice.
Yea it's mainstream and to be expected under legaleeze circumstances.
But it's not the kind of advice I would give to a friend whom I'm genuinely concerned about.
Have you known anyone who was depressed and managed to get better by following the advice of a generic "profressional"?
I haven't.
Quite the opposite. I've seen people get worse in one dimension or another by taking medication or following other professional advice.
Yea it's mainstream and to be expected under legaleeze circumstances.
But it's not the kind of advice I would give to a friend whom I'm genuinely concerned about.
Have you known anyone who was depressed and managed to get better by following the advice of a generic "profressional"?
I haven't.
Quite the opposite. I've seen people get worse in one dimension or another by taking medication or following other professional advice.
I have told friends to see professionals. Mostly getting a good therapist. Medication should be a second line for the usually encountered forms of depression.
It’s worked.
It’s worked.
I would wager you know many people who have gotten better after seeing a "professional". Mental health isn't often discussed openly so you would probably be shocked at how many high functioning people are on SSRIs (doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc).
> But it's not the kind of advice I would give to a friend whom I'm genuinely concerned about.
My advice to friends and family experiencing such issues is to take those issues seriously, and to see a doctor about them.
My advice to friends and family experiencing such issues is to take those issues seriously, and to see a doctor about them.
Probably many people you know have seen a doctor for depression and gotten better, they’re just not telling that to the guy who says things like you did in your post… Very stupid take here man…
You have an unhealthy relationship to medicine if you refuse to even read the advice of other people. I've been treated by hundreds of medical professionals and worked with dozens and I can assure you they do not hold any secret undying truth about human health. Modern medicine is primitive and brutal, we are fumbling buffoons when it comes to the human body and its ills, especially in the realm of mental health. If you don't believe me watch an orthopedic surgeon do his work (if you can stomach the electric saws and the hammers).
There's a lot of dangerous advice in these comments.
That's just the way it goes with the internet, but you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater, you just need to weigh the advice you get accordingly.
I think the increasingly common practice of forbidding medical advice in online forums is deleterious. For a lot of people professional medical care provides no solutions, hearing other people's personal experiences is helpful and comforting.
I think the increasingly common practice of forbidding medical advice in online forums is deleterious. For a lot of people professional medical care provides no solutions, hearing other people's personal experiences is helpful and comforting.
Doctors aren't always effective at treating depression. Especially if they use a therapy modality or medication that doesn't work for you. That doesn't mean you shouldn't talk to them, but it's also helpful to read experiences from from other people.
My opinion, doing both is good. Consult a professional and read about other people's experiences.
At the very least maybe somebody mentions a form of therapy that you've never heard of that you can ask your doctor about, or find a therapist that specializes in. If you ignored everyone's advice online you'd never even hear about that.
Personally, I'm starting Internal Family Systems therapy, which has seemed more promising for my psyche than many other modalities. But there are countless others. CBT is a good place to start, but doesn't work for everyone.
My opinion, doing both is good. Consult a professional and read about other people's experiences.
At the very least maybe somebody mentions a form of therapy that you've never heard of that you can ask your doctor about, or find a therapist that specializes in. If you ignored everyone's advice online you'd never even hear about that.
Personally, I'm starting Internal Family Systems therapy, which has seemed more promising for my psyche than many other modalities. But there are countless others. CBT is a good place to start, but doesn't work for everyone.
50% of doctors are by definition below the average.
In reality, roughly 3-10% are good, the rest just go by standard guidelines only and/or punt you off to someone else.
In reality, roughly 3-10% are good, the rest just go by standard guidelines only and/or punt you off to someone else.
50% are below the median.
Grades are normalized on a gaussian curve.
What's the difference between mean and median in a Gaussian distribution?
Looking forward to your contributions to mathematics.
What's the difference between mean and median in a Gaussian distribution?
Looking forward to your contributions to mathematics.
> Grades are normalized on a gaussian curve.
Are we talking about grades? Honestly when I see "50% of doctors are below average" I intuitively think of some other metric, such as the correct/incorrect diagnosis ratio, or the number of people that died because of their errors. Maybe it's just me but their uni (?) grades never comes to my mind.
Are we talking about grades? Honestly when I see "50% of doctors are below average" I intuitively think of some other metric, such as the correct/incorrect diagnosis ratio, or the number of people that died because of their errors. Maybe it's just me but their uni (?) grades never comes to my mind.
It alludes to the joke: "what do you call the last student from the worst medical school? A doctor"
Median is a type of average.
50% of everything is below the average.
Some of the most depressing experiences I have had was to look for a therapist when I was really depressed. I went to several and never felt that they understood me or even cared about what I was thinking. I honestly think they made me worse.
I have learned way more useful info on online forums from people who were going through the same experience. Yes you have to be discerning but the advice “go to a professional” is thoughtless. There are a lot of incompetent people working in mental health. I am sure it’s easier if you have tons of money or just lucky to run into a good therapist. But already being down and then being disappointed by the professionals is devastating. At least it was for me.
I have learned way more useful info on online forums from people who were going through the same experience. Yes you have to be discerning but the advice “go to a professional” is thoughtless. There are a lot of incompetent people working in mental health. I am sure it’s easier if you have tons of money or just lucky to run into a good therapist. But already being down and then being disappointed by the professionals is devastating. At least it was for me.
There's enclaves of doctors who e.g. think everything is some obscure type of bipolar disorder. Listening to doctors above all else is, surprisingly, not a good idea.
For everyone who had their life turned around by medication I have met two or three who either did not see improvement or had negative side effects on all options tried so they gave up.
Some drugs, like the typical or atypical antipsychotics that treat bipolar or rapidly oscillating bipolar, have the side effect of reducing your energy and making you more passive. It's hard to pick out the effects of some drugs from actually solving the issue or just making you more likely to not cause a fuss.
For everyone who had their life turned around by medication I have met two or three who either did not see improvement or had negative side effects on all options tried so they gave up.
Some drugs, like the typical or atypical antipsychotics that treat bipolar or rapidly oscillating bipolar, have the side effect of reducing your energy and making you more passive. It's hard to pick out the effects of some drugs from actually solving the issue or just making you more likely to not cause a fuss.
> PLEASE do not read any of these people's advice. Talk to a MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL, preferably a DOCTOR. DO NOT trust your mental health to strangers on the internet, be it reddit, or hacker news, or whatever.
I find this comment so overused, ignorant and dismissive. In my city it can take months to get a 20 minute appointment with a specialized doctor, while the internet is full of useful and scientific information and helpful people. That isn't even saying if the doctor really understands your problem or just dismisses it (had that often enough), like you dismiss other people's anecdotes. What are people supposed to do while they are waiting for an appointment for months with acute issues? I'd rather spend days myself and read the same information that a doctor (hopefully) would read in order to work on the problem before it gets worse or kills me.
So yes, try to talk to a medical professional at least once if you have the chance. If not or if it does not help, keep doing what you need to do and try to get the best information that you can find.
I find this comment so overused, ignorant and dismissive. In my city it can take months to get a 20 minute appointment with a specialized doctor, while the internet is full of useful and scientific information and helpful people. That isn't even saying if the doctor really understands your problem or just dismisses it (had that often enough), like you dismiss other people's anecdotes. What are people supposed to do while they are waiting for an appointment for months with acute issues? I'd rather spend days myself and read the same information that a doctor (hopefully) would read in order to work on the problem before it gets worse or kills me.
So yes, try to talk to a medical professional at least once if you have the chance. If not or if it does not help, keep doing what you need to do and try to get the best information that you can find.
>Talk to a MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL, preferably a DOCTOR.
why ? they don't really have a solution for it other than prescribing anti depressants. I don't see why they need to see a doctor.
why ? they don't really have a solution for it other than prescribing anti depressants. I don't see why they need to see a doctor.
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I too can only advice the OP to seek a true medical advice with preferably a face to face consultation. Now my personal experience: anti-depressants do work and often with little or no side effects. A doctor will prescribe what is best in your particular case. Allow for a few weeks for the effects to be felt, then you can decide if you want to continue using the product or not. It is best to take again medical advice at that time. Do not self-medicate! Many plant based products have side effects for often a low effect.
I don't trust doctors, and I have seen many people medicated for no reason at all. They basically just go by the book to avoid any sort of malpractice.
Yes!
Depression can be caused by hormonal imbalances. It's tricky to get things right-- see a doctor!
Depression can be caused by hormonal imbalances. It's tricky to get things right-- see a doctor!
You may be correct about not trusting mental health with strangers. But at the and taking anti depressant or not taking it up to you. Doctor cannot weight pros and cons of taking anti depressant for you.
Clueless comment. You don’t understand explore vs exploit. You are not qualified to give advice on the subject of whom to consult. Please do not try. Your advice is really bad.
This isn’t really a charitable response imo
I believe it is the most charitable interpretation of the GGP: that OP is ignorant of their ignorance. They aren’t malicious, merely innocently unaware of how clueless they are on the subject.
By the way, is the Hunt library still open 24x7? I remember it being a fun time when it was. Spent many a night there.
By the way, is the Hunt library still open 24x7? I remember it being a fun time when it was. Spent many a night there.
It is! I suffered through operating systems by way of Hunt ;)
If you were comp sci, Dr. Sturgill and Dr. Heckman are still making life hell for undergrads (for a good cause, of course)
Anyway, I see your point and don’t really have a better reply, so shrug I tend to agree that anything that can be attributed to ignorance rather than malice is correct, but the phrasing just seemed mildly aggressive to me. Not a big deal though!
If you were comp sci, Dr. Sturgill and Dr. Heckman are still making life hell for undergrads (for a good cause, of course)
Anyway, I see your point and don’t really have a better reply, so shrug I tend to agree that anything that can be attributed to ignorance rather than malice is correct, but the phrasing just seemed mildly aggressive to me. Not a big deal though!
Hahaha, classic. OS is a fun one.
My doctor is a fucking idiot. I also went to a university counseling service and they didn’t do shit. Never followed up or anything after the one consultation appointment I had.
https://www.betterhelp.com/
An option if you prefer an entirely-online experience.
But yes, your mental help is not worth asking strangers on the Internet for help. You deserve better than what we here can offer.
An option if you prefer an entirely-online experience.
But yes, your mental help is not worth asking strangers on the Internet for help. You deserve better than what we here can offer.
Am I the only one scratching my head over people, who are themselves giving advice on this website, saying not to take advice from people on this website? Seems self-defeating.
now that everyone thinks covid is over (hopefully it is), we can go back to having a healthy skepticism towards healthcare under capitalism. this is a good thing.
asking for advice and personal stories regarding navigating an issue as complex as depression and the way it's treated is not only prudent, it's smart.
a good healthcare provider is one that is fully willing to discuss unorthodox strategies found via independent research. take advice from the internet and find a provider who is willing to discuss it with you.
asking for advice and personal stories regarding navigating an issue as complex as depression and the way it's treated is not only prudent, it's smart.
a good healthcare provider is one that is fully willing to discuss unorthodox strategies found via independent research. take advice from the internet and find a provider who is willing to discuss it with you.
Honestly: go and talk to a doctor you trust.
My opinion (not a doctor): What is wrong in your life? Are you:
+ Working too hard
+ Commuting
+ Not exercising and taking care of yourself
+ Eating a diet with lots of processed foods
+ Using drugs and alcohol as a crutch
+ Overweight
+ Not resting regularly
+ Sleeping poorly
+ Have other health issues not addressed
+ Without genuine friends
+ Without a good partner
+ A certain age without kids
+ Spending too much time on social media
+ Spending too much time watching TV
+ Not engaging in hobbies, such as reading
+ Neglecting talking to family
+ Wanting to do something different in life but ignoring it
+ Harbouring regret, judging yourself and generally being cynical
+ Judging those around you too harshly
+ Not trusting people
Etc.
I fully understand that depression causes people to avoid addressing problems like I’ve listed. I’ve been there too, and it is not easy to climb out of the hole. It’s a positive feedback loop though: you start neglecting things (maybe due to time constraints), you lose a bit of happiness/stability, you neglect more things & so on. The hard part is to break out of the loop and start ticking these boxes. Start small and don’t judge yourself harshly if you slip.
Really do examine my small list and see if any of these things are pulling you down. If there’s something there you can’t fix, don’t beat yourself up on it. That’s the last thing to do. No one can be perfect, so don’t worry.
My opinion (not a doctor): What is wrong in your life? Are you:
+ Working too hard
+ Commuting
+ Not exercising and taking care of yourself
+ Eating a diet with lots of processed foods
+ Using drugs and alcohol as a crutch
+ Overweight
+ Not resting regularly
+ Sleeping poorly
+ Have other health issues not addressed
+ Without genuine friends
+ Without a good partner
+ A certain age without kids
+ Spending too much time on social media
+ Spending too much time watching TV
+ Not engaging in hobbies, such as reading
+ Neglecting talking to family
+ Wanting to do something different in life but ignoring it
+ Harbouring regret, judging yourself and generally being cynical
+ Judging those around you too harshly
+ Not trusting people
Etc.
I fully understand that depression causes people to avoid addressing problems like I’ve listed. I’ve been there too, and it is not easy to climb out of the hole. It’s a positive feedback loop though: you start neglecting things (maybe due to time constraints), you lose a bit of happiness/stability, you neglect more things & so on. The hard part is to break out of the loop and start ticking these boxes. Start small and don’t judge yourself harshly if you slip.
Really do examine my small list and see if any of these things are pulling you down. If there’s something there you can’t fix, don’t beat yourself up on it. That’s the last thing to do. No one can be perfect, so don’t worry.
As another person who has struggled with depressive issues at various points in my life, I really like your list. I have ticked every one of those boxes at one time or another; all of them brought me down, took effort to fix, and improved my well-being when fixed.
Including having children?
You can't always just pin depression on lifestyle. There's a strong biological component that influences your susceptibility to depression and every other mental illness. Some people fall in a pit over what might seem like a minor inconvenience to someone else. Some people get depressed over absolutely nothing.
I agree, but I prefer to start with these things. Smaller measures should only be passed over if they fail. I know what you mean though, I know people with mood issues like what you describe. It’s impossible to make a recommendation that suits everybody.
I suspect some of these are meant to get a rise, but I'll bite.
> + Commuting
Prior to 2020 this was the vast majority of all jobs, including tech. Most got by just fine. And today still encompasses the majority of jobs, so I would argue this is classist.
> + Neglecting talking to family
Many people have reasons not to talk to family that end up with positive mental health outcomes. Sure, it can be negative, but this seems exclusionary.
> + A certain age without kids
C'mon. This isn't the 1940s.
Please be careful when putting out lists like this.
This is juxtaposing genuine, universal indicators of depression alongside subjective ones, which when read by the wrong (misinformed, uncertain, etc.) audience, could lead to adverse outcomes.
> + Commuting
Prior to 2020 this was the vast majority of all jobs, including tech. Most got by just fine. And today still encompasses the majority of jobs, so I would argue this is classist.
> + Neglecting talking to family
Many people have reasons not to talk to family that end up with positive mental health outcomes. Sure, it can be negative, but this seems exclusionary.
> + A certain age without kids
C'mon. This isn't the 1940s.
Please be careful when putting out lists like this.
This is juxtaposing genuine, universal indicators of depression alongside subjective ones, which when read by the wrong (misinformed, uncertain, etc.) audience, could lead to adverse outcomes.
Most of those are symptoms and not causes.
what about sex ( or lack thereof). that caused me depression at somepoint in my life.
Of course. I think this stems from my point about not having a good partner. I don't think that sleeping around will help depression.
> For these reasons I am completely shit-scared of them. I see them as my option of last resort but increasingly I feel my options running out.
I was in the same boat.
Don't listen to the haters. Anti-depressants are amazing. Most of the people who 'cured' their depression through some kind of cheap trick turn out to have been self-diagnosed.
Anti-depressants, if dosed and chosen properly, have basically no side effects. The only change is you get to experience life like neurotypical people. So like, exercise is fun, not a form of torture. Emotions are OK, not the harbringers of the apocalypse.
Living with depression is awful, and it almost never goes away. It's also extremely dangerous. Look at the stats: depression is a dangerous medical condition. Anybody telling you to take some herb or read a book is on the level of the people who prescribe smoothies to cancer patients. Get medical advice. Take drugs if they are prescribed. Depression massively increases your risk of death from all causes. Anti-depressants have like, a slight chance of causing dry skin.
I was in the same boat.
Don't listen to the haters. Anti-depressants are amazing. Most of the people who 'cured' their depression through some kind of cheap trick turn out to have been self-diagnosed.
Anti-depressants, if dosed and chosen properly, have basically no side effects. The only change is you get to experience life like neurotypical people. So like, exercise is fun, not a form of torture. Emotions are OK, not the harbringers of the apocalypse.
Living with depression is awful, and it almost never goes away. It's also extremely dangerous. Look at the stats: depression is a dangerous medical condition. Anybody telling you to take some herb or read a book is on the level of the people who prescribe smoothies to cancer patients. Get medical advice. Take drugs if they are prescribed. Depression massively increases your risk of death from all causes. Anti-depressants have like, a slight chance of causing dry skin.
This isn’t an accurate description of the possible side-effects. Anti-depressants can cause meaningful side-effects including changes to appetite, difficulty regulating body temperature, nausea, changes to sleep, and akathisia. They are also very, very not fun to quit abruptly if you run into an intolerable side-effect. That said, nothing that you said about depression is wrong and the effects of untreated depression can be far worse than the side-effects of anti-depressants. It can just be hard for people to tell what is normal and what is abnormal and potentially caused by their medication, so they should be informed so that they can switch medication if they run into side-effects. (And know if their doctor is not providing them with good information.)
Yeah, re-reading my post, I probably should have expanded on the 'if dosed and chosen properly' part. Obviously, if you take the wrong dose, or have an adverse reaction, it's going to not very fun. I recommend talking to a psychiatrist.
That said, my first go-around with anti-depressants was a hugely overdosed prescription of venlafaxine from an overenthusiastic doctor, which is pretty side-effect-tastic, so my eyes were rolling out of my head and I was falling off chairs for a week and it was still far superior to being depressed.
Not taking anti-depressants because you're worrying about the side effects is like not wearing your motorcycle helmet because there might be a scorpion in it. The risk of dying from depression is really high. The risk of suffering from anti-depressants is fairly remote.
That said, my first go-around with anti-depressants was a hugely overdosed prescription of venlafaxine from an overenthusiastic doctor, which is pretty side-effect-tastic, so my eyes were rolling out of my head and I was falling off chairs for a week and it was still far superior to being depressed.
Not taking anti-depressants because you're worrying about the side effects is like not wearing your motorcycle helmet because there might be a scorpion in it. The risk of dying from depression is really high. The risk of suffering from anti-depressants is fairly remote.
Granted, I’m bipolar, but every person I know in my online support group has had significant side-effects from antidepressants. As well as a few friends with chronic depression.
Antipsychotics are even worse but I’ll take the side-effects over psychosis and paranoia any day.
Antipsychotics are even worse but I’ll take the side-effects over psychosis and paranoia any day.
For the first several months of drugs I had zero sex drive. I talked to the doctor about it and we both agreed that this was 100% tolerable compared to how I’d been without medication. Also that if my opinion on the matter changed, there were other options. Fortunately that side effect eased on its own.
I tried a whole host of anti-depressants including several SSRIs and an SNRI and all gave me many horrible side effects. At times they were necessary evils, but right now I'm doing pretty well on a low dose of gabapentin. In particular, they tended to both make me sleepy during the day and dramatically reduced the quality of my sleep at night. I also ended up getting tremors and RLS. In the end, I think most of these symptoms were due to the medications decreasing the effective amount of dopamine in my brain (they increase seratonin, but due to how seratonin and dopamine interact, this can decrease the effect of dopamine in the brain; they really need to be in balance with one another).
I also take methylphenidate (Ritalin) for ADHD and it is MUCH easier to stop stimulant medication in my experience compared to anti-depressants. And while stimulants affect sleep, I found the SSRIs to be much worse in this regard since they made me sleep poorly regardless of when I took the SSRI unless I skipped a day of the SSRI (and I was on the lowest possible dose).
Not only do these medications have side effects, they have severe side effects, at least for some people.
I also take methylphenidate (Ritalin) for ADHD and it is MUCH easier to stop stimulant medication in my experience compared to anti-depressants. And while stimulants affect sleep, I found the SSRIs to be much worse in this regard since they made me sleep poorly regardless of when I took the SSRI unless I skipped a day of the SSRI (and I was on the lowest possible dose).
Not only do these medications have side effects, they have severe side effects, at least for some people.
Depends on how you rate side effects. My experience of depression was feeling so physically awful I wanted to die, just to make it stop. In comparison, even the 'extreme' side effects from rapid anti-depressant withdrawal (shocks, vomiting, dizziness, etc) are very mild.
I get that's not everybody's experience. However, my feeling is that if you shop around until you can get the right dose and the right meds, the only side effect pain is when you start, and when you stop or draw down your dose.
The real danger of starting meds is that it can give a severely depressed person the motivation and wherewithal to commit suicide, so I do think it's worth starting them in a setting where you're not going to be alone. Still, I'd say that's less a 'side effect', and more just an effect of having severe depression and suddenly not feeling so debilitated that you can't do anything about it.
In general, I just find the conversation around anti-depressants completely unhelpful and baffling. People focus on the extremely long-tail side effects, and ignore the massive bump in the bellcurve that is a depressed person either committing suicide, or just living a totally miserable life until they die from some substance abuse problem. People who are diagnosed with depression do not live good lives without medication. The statistics for life expectancy, etc, are just awful (it's worse with stuff like schizophrenia or bipolar). So all the stuff about antidepressants making you fat or whatever is just totally irrelevant.
I get that's not everybody's experience. However, my feeling is that if you shop around until you can get the right dose and the right meds, the only side effect pain is when you start, and when you stop or draw down your dose.
The real danger of starting meds is that it can give a severely depressed person the motivation and wherewithal to commit suicide, so I do think it's worth starting them in a setting where you're not going to be alone. Still, I'd say that's less a 'side effect', and more just an effect of having severe depression and suddenly not feeling so debilitated that you can't do anything about it.
In general, I just find the conversation around anti-depressants completely unhelpful and baffling. People focus on the extremely long-tail side effects, and ignore the massive bump in the bellcurve that is a depressed person either committing suicide, or just living a totally miserable life until they die from some substance abuse problem. People who are diagnosed with depression do not live good lives without medication. The statistics for life expectancy, etc, are just awful (it's worse with stuff like schizophrenia or bipolar). So all the stuff about antidepressants making you fat or whatever is just totally irrelevant.
I was averse to anti-depressants as well. Ended up depressed and started self-medicating myself for a few years with weed and alcohol. Finally gave in and started taking the minimum dose of Celexa and, holy fuck, do I wish I had started taking them sooner. They changed my life. I took them for about 7 years and then went off them when I didn't need them anymore. Side effects were very minimal. Dampened sexual pleasure slightly. But it also made me more effective at work and better to get things done in my life.
My advice is try it. Talk to a psychiatrist and go on a minimal dose for a few months. Get therapy while you're going. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But it really could change your life.
My advice is try it. Talk to a psychiatrist and go on a minimal dose for a few months. Get therapy while you're going. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But it really could change your life.
> Anti-depressants, if dosed and chosen properly, have basically no side effects
WTF is that bullshit ?
SSRIs destroy libido and possibly permanently (see r/pssd)
MAOIs have many side effects
NRIs are not effective
NDRIs can cause tinnitus.
Stims are cardiotoxic and usually not prescribed for depression.
TCAs are not an action mechanism and therefore fall in the above categories.
Atypical mechanisms are not better either.
The only ones with low side effects either cause some sedation (mirtazapine, agomelatine) or have dubious effectiveness.
The only one that stands out is moclobemide and maybe bifemelane. The latter is only available in japan. The former has low efficacy.
hence for someone that don't want side effects, only moclobemide make sense, or ultra atypical stuff that has probably low efficacy. One of the only atypical that might be potent is SAM-e but who wants to play with his DNA methylation ?
9 mebc is phototoxic unfortunately as it is very promising otherwise.
edit: it's true though that testosterone is apparently as effective as SSRIs and with less side effects.
What should be said though is that there are some great anxiolytic out there, it's just that no one knows them, e.g opipramol, emoxypine, etifoxine
What should be said though is that there are some great anxiolytic out there, it's just that no one knows them, e.g opipramol, emoxypine, etifoxine
This is the reason why some people suggest not to listening to any comments. A lot of stuff here are factually incorrect:
1) MAOIs are safe, and Parnate specifically is extremely effective. However, requires a special diet to adhere.
2) Stimulants ARE prescribed very frequently to augment antidepressants in difficult cases, especially in people with serious illness.
3) Moclobemide has every effect of an MAOI in effective dosages, including diet restriction. There are no effective drugs without side effects. Moclobemide is not thought to be particularly effective(mostly because on-label dosage is far too low), there is a reason why it's used infrequently.
4) Etifoxine might be great for some, but it has significant risks of liver injury. There is a reason why Valium is still one of the most common anxiolytics prescribed worldwide.There's MANY classes of antidepressants. You probably got prescribed one of the more pleasant modern ones.
Dangerous advice. Anti-depressants are band-aid solutions. Depression isn't an imbalance of "chemicals", it has been marketed that way for decades to sell pills.
As soon as you are off them, you will likely relapse back into depression. While it can help someone that is in immediate risk, it does not solve the core issue of what depression is which requires a holistic, non-conventional view that Western medicine shuns, and is doomed to never address.
Stop treating it like a medical issue and it will open doors. There's a reason Western society is riddled with drug abuses, addiction, mental health issues while other societies is riddled with war, poverty, and diseases.
As soon as you are off them, you will likely relapse back into depression. While it can help someone that is in immediate risk, it does not solve the core issue of what depression is which requires a holistic, non-conventional view that Western medicine shuns, and is doomed to never address.
Stop treating it like a medical issue and it will open doors. There's a reason Western society is riddled with drug abuses, addiction, mental health issues while other societies is riddled with war, poverty, and diseases.
Everyone experiences depression differently. SSRIs made a tremendous difference to me and my mom where therapy and various other treatments did not.
Please be careful; this attitude places the blame on the person experiencing depression, and feeling guilty about being depressed is a vicious cycle that can have catastrophic effects.
There are some for whom depression is a product of their environment. For some of those, a "tough love" approach may work. But there are also those for whom depression is a physical condition that requires medical treatment
Please be careful; this attitude places the blame on the person experiencing depression, and feeling guilty about being depressed is a vicious cycle that can have catastrophic effects.
There are some for whom depression is a product of their environment. For some of those, a "tough love" approach may work. But there are also those for whom depression is a physical condition that requires medical treatment
I'm glad it is working for you but my point is that because SSRI and Western medicine largely addresses the observed biomechanical process, it is never going to be a complete solution, and hence I use the term band-aid. Addressing why through therapy can work but obviously if that was true we wouldn't need SSRIs in the first place. My point was that the Western approach to mental health has largely been the opposite of holistic and trauma-phobic. How do we know the wounds heal with SSRI and whatever popular politically correct therapy methodology is approved by academics at the time?
I did not put blame the person experiencing depression, like OP described, he finds SSRI questionable and is open to be without it and he is justified in doing so. He is completely in his right to question and trust his intuition by seeking second advice on here, most of which I'm appalled to say reads more like logical, academic explanations.
I simply described an alternative that has been increasingly viewed positively by the scientific community lately and there is nothing in that suggests I am guilt tripping them for being depressed.
Coming from SSRIs, I can tell you that the alternative I suggested that has already been downvoted into oblivion created a lasting change and it is consistent with other people who have previously been exposed to SSRI.
If depression was the product of their environment then there really is no need for any SSRI, the external situation can be changed. Doctors would be prescribing plane tickets to Bangkok but instead they hand you out pills. It does not appear to be what OP is describing and your argument is shaky at best.
Finally I will add, go ahead and try SSRI but it is not something you go on and off on without paying penalties for it. You don't know what you will be like weeks, months, years after it. You don't know what habits, lasting side effects you might develop during and after. It's not the job of the drug to know or care, it does what it is described as.
Just remember at the end of the day, your doctor is more than happy to prescribe you whatever anti-depressants sales rep incentivize them to. It's not his job to care nor is he is trained to by profession.
I did not put blame the person experiencing depression, like OP described, he finds SSRI questionable and is open to be without it and he is justified in doing so. He is completely in his right to question and trust his intuition by seeking second advice on here, most of which I'm appalled to say reads more like logical, academic explanations.
I simply described an alternative that has been increasingly viewed positively by the scientific community lately and there is nothing in that suggests I am guilt tripping them for being depressed.
Coming from SSRIs, I can tell you that the alternative I suggested that has already been downvoted into oblivion created a lasting change and it is consistent with other people who have previously been exposed to SSRI.
If depression was the product of their environment then there really is no need for any SSRI, the external situation can be changed. Doctors would be prescribing plane tickets to Bangkok but instead they hand you out pills. It does not appear to be what OP is describing and your argument is shaky at best.
Finally I will add, go ahead and try SSRI but it is not something you go on and off on without paying penalties for it. You don't know what you will be like weeks, months, years after it. You don't know what habits, lasting side effects you might develop during and after. It's not the job of the drug to know or care, it does what it is described as.
Just remember at the end of the day, your doctor is more than happy to prescribe you whatever anti-depressants sales rep incentivize them to. It's not his job to care nor is he is trained to by profession.
Usually when you change your environment ("tickets to Bangkok" as you say) the depression comes along with you.
If you have a specific stressor like a horrible job or abusive family member, leaving that situation can vastly improve your mental health. But otherwise, just flying somewhere else won't do much.
If you have a specific stressor like a horrible job or abusive family member, leaving that situation can vastly improve your mental health. But otherwise, just flying somewhere else won't do much.
> Depression isn't an imbalance of "chemicals", it has been marketed that way for decades to sell pills
Medical professionals have been finding that in cases of clinic chronic depression, the patients brain doesn't produce nearly enough endorphins compared to others. Also, antidepressants are from a time where we didn't yet produce problems to sell the solution and they have helped millions of patients.
But I guess you know something we don't?
Medical professionals have been finding that in cases of clinic chronic depression, the patients brain doesn't produce nearly enough endorphins compared to others. Also, antidepressants are from a time where we didn't yet produce problems to sell the solution and they have helped millions of patients.
But I guess you know something we don't?
They are describing a symptom not addressing the root causes and it doesn't require a medical degree to see this.
> So HN, what has your experience been with depression? Have you tried the drugs? What worked or didn't? Have you been able to triumph without chemical assistance and what did that look like? Is my utter terror of these drugs warranted or should I just bite the bullet and try them?
A lot of friends have ended up on prozac or other drugs, with profoundly hit or miss results.
I've struggled at times, but found that vitamin D, magnesium, zinc, decent amount of protein, and good sleep did a lot for me. Regular outside activities, even if just walks, or exercise also a lot for me.
Keep in mind I live in Western Canada, so my walks often happen in -30C weather.
Also just finding something that produces joy was big. Not fun, not cool -- joy. Making less money and doing more things that bring me joy made a big difference. Most of the people I know making "the big money" are miserable people.
A lot of friends have ended up on prozac or other drugs, with profoundly hit or miss results.
I've struggled at times, but found that vitamin D, magnesium, zinc, decent amount of protein, and good sleep did a lot for me. Regular outside activities, even if just walks, or exercise also a lot for me.
Keep in mind I live in Western Canada, so my walks often happen in -30C weather.
Also just finding something that produces joy was big. Not fun, not cool -- joy. Making less money and doing more things that bring me joy made a big difference. Most of the people I know making "the big money" are miserable people.
Couldn’t agree more on Vitamin D (and if possible get sun, even if it’s fake sun).
Also, avoid caffeine like coffee etc. Caffeine can make things worse.
EDIT: why the downvote?
Also, avoid caffeine like coffee etc. Caffeine can make things worse.
EDIT: why the downvote?
I don't know why you were downvoted, but I will say that for me caffeine has not directly impacted my depressive episodes. The closest is when it impacts my sleep. I've learned that poor sleep quality and insomnia are my first obvious signs of a depressive episode, but the causal direction is not always straightforward (depression -> insomnia, insomnia -> depression? Both have happened, they feed on each other). So keeping caffeine to the morning and early afternoon is sufficient in my case.
However, caffeine does heighten my anxiety (with or without the impact on sleep). Maybe I should quit caffeine, but I like my morning coffee ritual so have no plan to right now. Instead, I take periodic breaks from caffeine to make sure I'm not addicted again. If I can go a few days without caffeine and without getting a headache, then I'm good. If I can't, then I'm probably consuming too much and it will (or already has) exacerbate my anxiety.
However, caffeine does heighten my anxiety (with or without the impact on sleep). Maybe I should quit caffeine, but I like my morning coffee ritual so have no plan to right now. Instead, I take periodic breaks from caffeine to make sure I'm not addicted again. If I can go a few days without caffeine and without getting a headache, then I'm good. If I can't, then I'm probably consuming too much and it will (or already has) exacerbate my anxiety.
Depression and Anxiety are highly correlated.
https://www.hartgrovehospital.com/relationship-anxiety-depre...
And it’s common for the same medication to treat both anxiety and depression.
Note: I’m not a doctor and wouldn’t recommend the OP to take advice from anyone other than a medical professional.
https://www.hartgrovehospital.com/relationship-anxiety-depre...
And it’s common for the same medication to treat both anxiety and depression.
Note: I’m not a doctor and wouldn’t recommend the OP to take advice from anyone other than a medical professional.
I have also found vitamin D to be important for my mental health. In the past I found probiotics extremely helpful for my mood as well, though lately they haven't seemed to effect me much (seems to have changed after I had a course of antibiotics, so perhaps the reason they had been effective was related to an interaction with some bacteria?)
Depression runs in my family but daily exercise completely reverses it. I’m referring to 60m+ of cardio average per day. Anytime I go more than 2 days without exercise, I’m immediately under a dark cloud.
I’ve heard plenty of people say it doesn’t work for them. I have to assume they’ve actually tried it for a length of time and it’s true. But it’s at least worth finding out of it works for you before resorting to medication.
I’ve heard plenty of people say it doesn’t work for them. I have to assume they’ve actually tried it for a length of time and it’s true. But it’s at least worth finding out of it works for you before resorting to medication.
When I had two major crisis hit at the same time last year I made sure to get out of bed no matter how I felt and go run for about 45 minutes rain or shine every day. I had been through stress anxiety periods before and found it to work wonders. It kept my head above water last year and things are much better now and I am still exercising training for a half Ironman. It’s so amazing how much it helps. Also walking it sounds like bs but it really works for me.
There is evidence supporting that. Not a lot but there is.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24026850/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24026850/
That’s a lot of cardio. Especially as you age? Do you have a contingency for injuries?
Not GP, but I'm integrating lower impact cardio into my routine both to prevent injuries now and to get myself into good habits for when running may not be possible (or reasonable). Right now I run or walk (I took the winter off from running, so I'm getting back into it) and row each weekday. I have a bike and a trainer for it, which I will put next to the rower soon (I have had too many close calls to be comfortable with road biking anymore). There's a gym with a pool across the street from my house so I also plan to get back into swimming, but I need to work on shoulder strength and mobility first.
Cycling and other forms of cardio can be done well into old age. Sure I’ll eventually be forced to wind down, but that doesn’t seem relevant to whether I do lots of cardio at my current age.
A bungie rebounder (mini trampoline) is a good exercise. It gets your heart rate up and exercises pretty much every muscle in your body while being low impact and easy on your joints. NASA did a study back in the 70's and claimed it was more efficient than jogging with less joint stress.
Even if you can't stand, you can get health benefits from bouncing while merely sitting on it. Even people who are paralyzed can benefit by sitting on it and be bounced by another person.
You can watch videos or chat while doing it. You don't have to worry about bad weather. It's almost silent so you can do it even while others are sleeping in the same room. You can hold or wear weights while doing it to increase strength. It doesn't take much space and some have folding legs for storing behind or under other furniture and some even fold the frame for storage or transportation.
Even if you can't stand, you can get health benefits from bouncing while merely sitting on it. Even people who are paralyzed can benefit by sitting on it and be bounced by another person.
You can watch videos or chat while doing it. You don't have to worry about bad weather. It's almost silent so you can do it even while others are sleeping in the same room. You can hold or wear weights while doing it to increase strength. It doesn't take much space and some have folding legs for storing behind or under other furniture and some even fold the frame for storage or transportation.
If you think 60m per day is a lot of cardio, you need to improve how you get your heart rate up.
Treatmills and stationary bikes are boring; going for a run or hopping on a bicycle works much better.
Treatmills and stationary bikes are boring; going for a run or hopping on a bicycle works much better.
I likely do double that and have done for 20 years now. For me its simple, run on soft surfaces (trails) or a treadmill if its really rough out there.
Had Major Depressive Disorder and Generalized Anxiety Disorder for many years.
I went through a couple different psychiatrists and multiple combinations of meds before I found something that was mostly effective and without major side effects for me. Along the way I went through times where I was severely overmedicated and couldn't really function but quickly recognized that and worked with my psychiatrist to move onto another treatment. You have to give stuff a shot and see how it goes for you, chances are the first thing you try is not the thing that's going to work.
The psychiatrist that I stuck with was the one that suggested I should also see a therapist. My take is you need both. I went through a few different therapists before I found one that worked for me. They helped me develop the tools I needed to break out of the cycle and take control of the anxiety and depression.
Ultimately starting to take care of myself physically was the biggest impact and the thing that really got me off the meds and "graduated" from therapy. But I wouldn't have been able to get started on that without the meds and the therapy.
I went through a couple different psychiatrists and multiple combinations of meds before I found something that was mostly effective and without major side effects for me. Along the way I went through times where I was severely overmedicated and couldn't really function but quickly recognized that and worked with my psychiatrist to move onto another treatment. You have to give stuff a shot and see how it goes for you, chances are the first thing you try is not the thing that's going to work.
The psychiatrist that I stuck with was the one that suggested I should also see a therapist. My take is you need both. I went through a few different therapists before I found one that worked for me. They helped me develop the tools I needed to break out of the cycle and take control of the anxiety and depression.
Ultimately starting to take care of myself physically was the biggest impact and the thing that really got me off the meds and "graduated" from therapy. But I wouldn't have been able to get started on that without the meds and the therapy.
I went through mild (and not professionally diagnosed) depression a few years back. No suicidal thoughts, no pit in the stomach, just a complete lack of desire to do anything at all. Crystallized apathy. Before seeing my doctor, I figured I would anticipate his questions: he would ask, "Do you get any exercise?" And I would say, "No, I walk up two flights of stairs and back down those flights of stairs each day and that's about it." And my doctor would say to me, "Get some exercise, and see what happens."
So I got some exercise. I bought a bike and put it on a trainer. I rode a few times. I loved riding my bike when I was young. That helped, a little. I think it helped me take my next step.
I'd been coaching my 9yo son at soccer for a year or so, but I never played soccer myself. So I decided I'd try playing a local soccer pickup game.
That was the trick for me. I don't know why. But suddenly I found motivation. Just enough to play soccer. Once a week, and then twice a week, and then three times, and now as many times a week as I can fit into my schedule. I lost 10#, 20#, 30#, even made it to 40# before the pandemic and found more motivation in other areas of life as well.
Soccer hurts. A lot of games I can barely shuffle through my garage after driving home. I was 39 when I started playing and I'm 41 now. I'm no spring chicken. But the mental and physical engagement of playing soccer, even just pickup soccer, has thoroughly enriched my life.
I have a friend who's a psychiatrist. I talked to him about this. He told me that I correctly anticipated my doctor's response. Exercise is the first line of defense and the first treatment suggested for depression. And it doesn't take much to try it and see if it helps. Your depression sounds worse than mine. Maybe you can walk before you run.
You shouldn't be afraid of the drugs: let the doctors handle that. But if you prefer to try something before drugs, exercise is the clear choice.
So I got some exercise. I bought a bike and put it on a trainer. I rode a few times. I loved riding my bike when I was young. That helped, a little. I think it helped me take my next step.
I'd been coaching my 9yo son at soccer for a year or so, but I never played soccer myself. So I decided I'd try playing a local soccer pickup game.
That was the trick for me. I don't know why. But suddenly I found motivation. Just enough to play soccer. Once a week, and then twice a week, and then three times, and now as many times a week as I can fit into my schedule. I lost 10#, 20#, 30#, even made it to 40# before the pandemic and found more motivation in other areas of life as well.
Soccer hurts. A lot of games I can barely shuffle through my garage after driving home. I was 39 when I started playing and I'm 41 now. I'm no spring chicken. But the mental and physical engagement of playing soccer, even just pickup soccer, has thoroughly enriched my life.
I have a friend who's a psychiatrist. I talked to him about this. He told me that I correctly anticipated my doctor's response. Exercise is the first line of defense and the first treatment suggested for depression. And it doesn't take much to try it and see if it helps. Your depression sounds worse than mine. Maybe you can walk before you run.
You shouldn't be afraid of the drugs: let the doctors handle that. But if you prefer to try something before drugs, exercise is the clear choice.
This is important advice. I was just diagnosed with a micro-stroke due to covid & AZ vaccine. My vascular neurologist doctor basically prescribed 3 things: aspirin, exercise and diet. Including for depression I got after the fact.
If you look for the 'solution " to most chronic ailments, exercise is usually at the top of the list.
So OP, if you dont exercise at least 40 mins every day, start with that. If you already do that, then your condition might require antidepressants
If you look for the 'solution " to most chronic ailments, exercise is usually at the top of the list.
So OP, if you dont exercise at least 40 mins every day, start with that. If you already do that, then your condition might require antidepressants
When I had depression, I had similar symptoms like you. I had same deep pit in the morning and unable to sleep at night.
I tried exercise, read Feeling Good book, took different vitamins etc. None of this really helped.
What finally worked was giving into my depression. I would come back from work, listen to sad songs, cry like a child, pray, and drink until I passed out. Within a few days, I would wake up without pit in my stomach. Hangover was another story. Within a couple of weeks, I was not depressed. Depression turned into anxiety. And anxiety was a lot easier to deal with than depression.
Once depression was mostly gone, then I was able to use CBT methods to deal with my anxiety.
It is really hard for people who never experienced depression to understand what it feels like. It is worse than hell. I am sorry you are going through it. Just take one day at a time.
I tried exercise, read Feeling Good book, took different vitamins etc. None of this really helped.
What finally worked was giving into my depression. I would come back from work, listen to sad songs, cry like a child, pray, and drink until I passed out. Within a few days, I would wake up without pit in my stomach. Hangover was another story. Within a couple of weeks, I was not depressed. Depression turned into anxiety. And anxiety was a lot easier to deal with than depression.
Once depression was mostly gone, then I was able to use CBT methods to deal with my anxiety.
It is really hard for people who never experienced depression to understand what it feels like. It is worse than hell. I am sorry you are going through it. Just take one day at a time.
I don't know if I've ever been clinically depressed. I've never been diagnosed, but I've never seen a therapist or talked to a doctor about it either.
I have defintely had periods of unexplained very low motivation and lethargy. I've done the "listen to music and get really drunk alone" thing a few times. It did seem to help, though I didn't do it with that intent. It kind of slapped me in the face with a "you are pathetic, get over it" message that really sunk in. It has been a few years since I have done that.
I also started exercising (weightlifting) about 2 years ago, which is something I never did before. I have tried other exercising (biking, running, swimming, etc.) but none of it ever stuck. Weightlifting did for some reason. Barbells, not machines. Squat, bench press, deadlift. Read or watch some videos from Mark Rippetoe "Starting Strength." I can't say I enjoy doing it, but for some reason I have kept at it and I do like the effect on my body. I'm 55 and have the best muscle tone I've ever had in my life.
I also take a regular multivitamin every day, along with moderate additional C, D, and Zinc. I don't get headaches anymore and I hardly ever even get a cold. I don't eat fast food or drink soda, I eat mostly chicken, steak, and salad and drink water, coffee, or tea.
I have defintely had periods of unexplained very low motivation and lethargy. I've done the "listen to music and get really drunk alone" thing a few times. It did seem to help, though I didn't do it with that intent. It kind of slapped me in the face with a "you are pathetic, get over it" message that really sunk in. It has been a few years since I have done that.
I also started exercising (weightlifting) about 2 years ago, which is something I never did before. I have tried other exercising (biking, running, swimming, etc.) but none of it ever stuck. Weightlifting did for some reason. Barbells, not machines. Squat, bench press, deadlift. Read or watch some videos from Mark Rippetoe "Starting Strength." I can't say I enjoy doing it, but for some reason I have kept at it and I do like the effect on my body. I'm 55 and have the best muscle tone I've ever had in my life.
I also take a regular multivitamin every day, along with moderate additional C, D, and Zinc. I don't get headaches anymore and I hardly ever even get a cold. I don't eat fast food or drink soda, I eat mostly chicken, steak, and salad and drink water, coffee, or tea.
I had been, not long ago, through a crippling depression that I fought by myself. Initially, it crippled me to the point of not being able to get up from bed and start my day (I spent the whole weekend on bed, feeling terribly sad, regretful and helpless. I only get up for biological needs).
After 5 or 6 months of suffering, I decided, at some certain point, that I need to do something about it and that I need to get over it and not waste my life. I started small, step by step, waking up, taking shower, going out for a walk, etc. I used to WFH, but I reversed the habit and started to go to work place everyday.
Then, I got a gym membership and started exercising almost everyday (after so many years of physical inactivity. I am 25 BTW). I started cooking and eating healthy. I take multivitamins everyday with an additional dose of Vitamine D and Magnesium. I eat only vegetables (lots of them), rice, chicken and fish and sometimes beef steaks. I also take fruits everyday (usually Oranges, Bananas and Apples). I also drink Coffee (one cup in the morning and sometimes another in the evening) and Tea with Ginger.
I feel much better. Now, I have a routine, I am more active and I get some work done. However, I still suffer from a slight lack of motivation and happiness. I still feel a bit unhappy and I am not as motivated as I was before the whole depression thing hit me. I don't know why and I have no idea how to solve this part to become the super motivated, super focused and super productive person I used to be.
After 5 or 6 months of suffering, I decided, at some certain point, that I need to do something about it and that I need to get over it and not waste my life. I started small, step by step, waking up, taking shower, going out for a walk, etc. I used to WFH, but I reversed the habit and started to go to work place everyday.
Then, I got a gym membership and started exercising almost everyday (after so many years of physical inactivity. I am 25 BTW). I started cooking and eating healthy. I take multivitamins everyday with an additional dose of Vitamine D and Magnesium. I eat only vegetables (lots of them), rice, chicken and fish and sometimes beef steaks. I also take fruits everyday (usually Oranges, Bananas and Apples). I also drink Coffee (one cup in the morning and sometimes another in the evening) and Tea with Ginger.
I feel much better. Now, I have a routine, I am more active and I get some work done. However, I still suffer from a slight lack of motivation and happiness. I still feel a bit unhappy and I am not as motivated as I was before the whole depression thing hit me. I don't know why and I have no idea how to solve this part to become the super motivated, super focused and super productive person I used to be.
I didn't get formal diagnosis either. At the time, I really didn't know what was wrong with me. It was later in life when I realized what had happened.
The thing with depression is that one is unable to properly think. Nothing really matters. So suggestions like go for a walk or eat healthy are really hard to put in practice.
I used to run 5K almost daily when depression hit me. It was induced by trauma. Initially, I kept going out to run, though my pace was slower and I didn't run as far. Like how they say about going broke; slowly first and then suddenly, that's how my depression progressed.
Also you reminded me about weekends. I did same thing, spend whole weekends in bed, avoided any social contact. Just drank, ate, prayed, listened to music, and cried out loud. I tried playing video games and watch movies but they could not hold my interest. Stopped running. If friends invited me, I made excuses. Luckily for me, it lasted only a few weeks.
I don't think it was any of healthy suggestions here that helped me. I already had some healthy habits like running and eating right. Maybe if I had gone to doctor, it would have helped me faster.
Just like how it started, that's how it ended. First, I started a to feel a little bit better and then suddenly I was not depressed at all. Then I had really bad case of anxiety, which I still suffer from a bit but CBT methods really helps me here. I am back to running, working out, taking vitamins etc. And feel great now.
The thing with depression is that one is unable to properly think. Nothing really matters. So suggestions like go for a walk or eat healthy are really hard to put in practice.
I used to run 5K almost daily when depression hit me. It was induced by trauma. Initially, I kept going out to run, though my pace was slower and I didn't run as far. Like how they say about going broke; slowly first and then suddenly, that's how my depression progressed.
Also you reminded me about weekends. I did same thing, spend whole weekends in bed, avoided any social contact. Just drank, ate, prayed, listened to music, and cried out loud. I tried playing video games and watch movies but they could not hold my interest. Stopped running. If friends invited me, I made excuses. Luckily for me, it lasted only a few weeks.
I don't think it was any of healthy suggestions here that helped me. I already had some healthy habits like running and eating right. Maybe if I had gone to doctor, it would have helped me faster.
Just like how it started, that's how it ended. First, I started a to feel a little bit better and then suddenly I was not depressed at all. Then I had really bad case of anxiety, which I still suffer from a bit but CBT methods really helps me here. I am back to running, working out, taking vitamins etc. And feel great now.
Eat healthy, go for walks, talk to a professional, open up to family and friends. Don’t be afraid of taking medication or changing your career. Don’t be afraid of admitting to yourself what you actually want out of life.
Don’t expect it to be easy.
The nice thing about medication is if you forget to take a pill today it is very easy to take one tomorrow. You can also stop when ever you want. Best case, they are a crutch that helps you until you can walk again. Worst case, you’ll live an undepressed life with them.
If you self-treat in the gym, it can be very difficult to haul your sorry ass back there if you miss a day.
> I have tried therapy
The worst thing about therapy is finding a therapist. It’s an awful process that one needs to do in a time in your life when you are not capable.
I don’t know you, but you asked for internet stranger advice: mine is to keep looking for a therapist you like and have them be part of your healing process together with medication. Don’t stop seeing a therapist just because you start to feel good when the medication kicks in.
Don’t expect it to be easy.
The nice thing about medication is if you forget to take a pill today it is very easy to take one tomorrow. You can also stop when ever you want. Best case, they are a crutch that helps you until you can walk again. Worst case, you’ll live an undepressed life with them.
If you self-treat in the gym, it can be very difficult to haul your sorry ass back there if you miss a day.
> I have tried therapy
The worst thing about therapy is finding a therapist. It’s an awful process that one needs to do in a time in your life when you are not capable.
I don’t know you, but you asked for internet stranger advice: mine is to keep looking for a therapist you like and have them be part of your healing process together with medication. Don’t stop seeing a therapist just because you start to feel good when the medication kicks in.
> You can also stop when ever you want.
To clarify, it’s important antidepressants are not stopped suddenly, but rather gradually reduced over a few weeks. Stopping suddenly can lead to withdrawal symptoms [0]
[0] https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/talking-therapies-medicine-...
To clarify, it’s important antidepressants are not stopped suddenly, but rather gradually reduced over a few weeks. Stopping suddenly can lead to withdrawal symptoms [0]
[0] https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/talking-therapies-medicine-...
"Don't be afraid" is something that doesn't really work as advice. If I could just not have fear, what's left is just work.
I feel like the majority of the effort I have to put into things is overcoming my own brain. Whenever I get my brain to agree with what I want to do and that doing it it is worthwhile, the rest is easy. It's ignoring the billion stupid reasons my brain generates why I should not do something I want to do that is exhausting and difficult.
I feel like the majority of the effort I have to put into things is overcoming my own brain. Whenever I get my brain to agree with what I want to do and that doing it it is worthwhile, the rest is easy. It's ignoring the billion stupid reasons my brain generates why I should not do something I want to do that is exhausting and difficult.
OP’s comment was a bit flippant, but I interpret it as encouragement to try something new, and reassurance that it’s not as bad as you fear—someone else’s anecdata that the billion stupid reasons your brain generates aren’t valid signal for you to listen to. I agree with that sentiment.
That’s not easy either…but it’s the best I’ve got at a certain point
That’s not easy either…but it’s the best I’ve got at a certain point
What michaericalribo said in sibling comment. Sorry for the poor wording with "don't be afraid".
I'm not sure if this totally out of left-field, but have you tried dietary change like a ketogenic or other type of restrictive diet? I know that for some people some foods can trigger horrible mood changes like bipolar, anger, feelings of fear, depression, etc.. Especially if you're sensitive to some foods like gluten, dairy, certain meats & veggies, etc. Also if you ingest any other drugs/chemicals it would be worth considering their effects too (nicotine, caffeine, alcohol, weed, etc).
I think if there is no other option SSRIs can help but I've also seen them have bad side effects (especially when taken long-term). Of course you gotta pick the lesser of the evils.. curious if you've looked into this at all:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34949933/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30075165/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31568812/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31336509/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30037619/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29914664/
I think if there is no other option SSRIs can help but I've also seen them have bad side effects (especially when taken long-term). Of course you gotta pick the lesser of the evils.. curious if you've looked into this at all:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34949933/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30075165/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31568812/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31336509/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30037619/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29914664/
This happened to me. Switched to a very strict gluten/soy-free diet and years of bipolar and anxiety started to clear up. In hindsight I've realized I have celiac disease and no one bothered to tell me.
I second this. Foods affect your depression levels. Foods high in Omega 3 fight depression. Eat those foods regularly, you should notice the change in your mood.
One thing to highlight: there's no "beating" depression--setting that as the goal will be discouraging. But as you alluded to, there are ways to cope, and to manage it, and to live a good + fulfilling life in spite of the depression.
I've had great luck with antidepressants. They don't "solve" the problem, but they give me a bit more space to operate and work on my mental health. As others have said, symptoms of SSRIs can be managed.
Mindfulness meditation--clearing your thoughts and focusing on breathing--for 15min a day can feel transformative after a couple months. I've fallen off that, but I'd like to pick it back up.
There's lots of little things that can contribute to better mental health. Meditation, exercise, diet, sleep: all are factors. But it's not worth suffering through, and it's worth giving medication a shot (in my opinion).
Medication is not a commitment for life, it's an experiment to see if you can find something to help your symptoms.
I do _highly_ recommend sustaining a therapy relationship, and simultaneously working with a psychiatrist. I haven't found therapy very transformative, and it certainly hasn't solved my problems. But it does give me some support, and that's yet another helpful factor in getting by.
I've had great luck with antidepressants. They don't "solve" the problem, but they give me a bit more space to operate and work on my mental health. As others have said, symptoms of SSRIs can be managed.
Mindfulness meditation--clearing your thoughts and focusing on breathing--for 15min a day can feel transformative after a couple months. I've fallen off that, but I'd like to pick it back up.
There's lots of little things that can contribute to better mental health. Meditation, exercise, diet, sleep: all are factors. But it's not worth suffering through, and it's worth giving medication a shot (in my opinion).
Medication is not a commitment for life, it's an experiment to see if you can find something to help your symptoms.
I do _highly_ recommend sustaining a therapy relationship, and simultaneously working with a psychiatrist. I haven't found therapy very transformative, and it certainly hasn't solved my problems. But it does give me some support, and that's yet another helpful factor in getting by.
> Medication is not a commitment for life, it's an experiment to see if you can find something to help your symptoms.
Make sure you have a doctor who shares this view and is honest about withdrawals. While antidepressants may have saved my life, my doctor from the get-go had me planning to be on them for the rest of my life. Fortunately, eventually I didn’t need them anymore, but I was not prepared to get off them either.
Make sure you have a doctor who shares this view and is honest about withdrawals. While antidepressants may have saved my life, my doctor from the get-go had me planning to be on them for the rest of my life. Fortunately, eventually I didn’t need them anymore, but I was not prepared to get off them either.
Good point! “Experiment” was probably a bad word to use. It’s important to work with a medical doctor, preferably a psychiatrist, to try any sort of pharmaceutical solution like SSRIs. They can offer professional guidance and informed supervision, and monitor for a variety of edge cases. eg, you may be unlikely to be bipolar, but if you _were_ and an SSRI triggered a manic episode, you’d want someone to notice and treat you!
But also as you said there should be an entire intake / triage conversation to understand things like family psychological / medical history, and to make informed decisions before trying any medication.
But also as you said there should be an entire intake / triage conversation to understand things like family psychological / medical history, and to make informed decisions before trying any medication.
Don't fear the SSRIs. They get a bad rap because they've been blown way out of proportion from what I've seen. I have a co-worker who didn't just treat his MCD with Zoloft, IT WAS CURED ENTIRELY. He hasn't needed it or taken it for something like 5 years now and he's still just fine.
The truly dangerous ones - and this is also not as bad as it sounds most of the time - are MAOIs. They're reserved as a last-line treatment in most cases, and it's because SSRIs are quite a bit safer the vast majority of the time.
So don't let the bad rap SSRIs get scare you off; talk to a doctor before you come to any conclusions whatsoever!
Worst side effect I ever had on an SSRI was from paroxetine, and it actually worked to my benefit, at least until I had to get off the medication for financial reasons. Let's just say the woman I was dating at the time was REALLY happy to never find herself "unsatisfied" if you know what I mean! I was never satisfied, though, so yeah that was kind of a bummer, but that was honestly the worst side effect I ever experienced. And I've been on nearly every one there is (at least in the US anyway).
The truly dangerous ones - and this is also not as bad as it sounds most of the time - are MAOIs. They're reserved as a last-line treatment in most cases, and it's because SSRIs are quite a bit safer the vast majority of the time.
So don't let the bad rap SSRIs get scare you off; talk to a doctor before you come to any conclusions whatsoever!
Worst side effect I ever had on an SSRI was from paroxetine, and it actually worked to my benefit, at least until I had to get off the medication for financial reasons. Let's just say the woman I was dating at the time was REALLY happy to never find herself "unsatisfied" if you know what I mean! I was never satisfied, though, so yeah that was kind of a bummer, but that was honestly the worst side effect I ever experienced. And I've been on nearly every one there is (at least in the US anyway).
MAOIs are not necessarily more dangerous, they just need a low tyramine diet which is easily doable. Moreover you can significantly lower this need with a concommitant NRI.
transdermal (emsam) or selective mao-a or b don't even need a diet and are safer than SSRIs (no PSSD)
This is gonna be very different from the rest, but looking at a wide variety of options prob won't hurt:
I struggled with depression for several years, and what got me out was a combination of understanding myself better and improving the most important relationships in my life, basically personal development.
If you're interested/open to this, I can talk about it in more detail. Don't want to just start sharing a bunch of stuff if no one wants to know lol.
EDIT: Sorry maybe that's a bit too vague. I meant things like figuring out my thought patterns, my specific pain points, past traumas/wounds, etc. and also things like my (and my partner's) personality traits and tendencies.
EDIT: Sorry maybe that's a bit too vague. I meant things like figuring out my thought patterns, my specific pain points, past traumas/wounds, etc. and also things like my (and my partner's) personality traits and tendencies.
Medication helped me and probably saved my life.
I’ll put it this way: You’re already miserable, you don’t have much to lose.
People have horror stories and people have success stories it’s true, but even some of the people I’ve known with horror stories still found the end result to be positive/worthwhile.
Nothing is going to change if you do nothing and you’ll stay miserable. Alternatively you can do something and you may just improve your life.
I was at a colossal low point when I finally began to receive the mental healthcare I needed. It was worth it even though it took time to get the right medications for me.
Maybe you still feel like you have something more to lose than gain but I didn’t.
I’ll put it this way: You’re already miserable, you don’t have much to lose.
People have horror stories and people have success stories it’s true, but even some of the people I’ve known with horror stories still found the end result to be positive/worthwhile.
Nothing is going to change if you do nothing and you’ll stay miserable. Alternatively you can do something and you may just improve your life.
I was at a colossal low point when I finally began to receive the mental healthcare I needed. It was worth it even though it took time to get the right medications for me.
Maybe you still feel like you have something more to lose than gain but I didn’t.
I took antidepressants for about five years at the suggestion of my primary care doc at a time when I knew the floor was about to fall out at work and I'd need help to cope with the stress.
I made it through until the project was over and then I quit.
In that time frame I was sometimes between jobs, sometimes trying to sell solutions for the financial services industry, sometimes doing consulting, sometimes working at startups.
The most obvious side effect I had was suppression of my sexual response. It wasn't eliminated, but it was reduced, it took me more time to come to an orgasm, and when the orgasm came it wasn't a single event but rather I could perceive a number of separate events... Sometimes the result was fantastic, sometimes it would fall flat. I was capable of having sex for an hour, not have an orgasm, having sex the next morning for 20 minutes and having an orgasm, etc.
After I had settled in at a steady job my primary care physician said I should try quitting. A few weeks after I did I had a few incidents where I'd get furious about messes that hadn't been cleaned up for years... One day I got 45,000 steps on a day when I didn't leave the house.
My libido came back with full force and then I started having conflicts with my wife about her being less interested in sex. That's still an ongoing misadventure.
I made it through until the project was over and then I quit.
In that time frame I was sometimes between jobs, sometimes trying to sell solutions for the financial services industry, sometimes doing consulting, sometimes working at startups.
The most obvious side effect I had was suppression of my sexual response. It wasn't eliminated, but it was reduced, it took me more time to come to an orgasm, and when the orgasm came it wasn't a single event but rather I could perceive a number of separate events... Sometimes the result was fantastic, sometimes it would fall flat. I was capable of having sex for an hour, not have an orgasm, having sex the next morning for 20 minutes and having an orgasm, etc.
After I had settled in at a steady job my primary care physician said I should try quitting. A few weeks after I did I had a few incidents where I'd get furious about messes that hadn't been cleaned up for years... One day I got 45,000 steps on a day when I didn't leave the house.
My libido came back with full force and then I started having conflicts with my wife about her being less interested in sex. That's still an ongoing misadventure.
Had generalized anxiety and mild depression since middle school. 10mg Lexapro/escitalopram (SSRI) has done wonders for my anxiety and subsequently helped my depression. I tried CBT alone for some years and it helps a bit but the medication was really what helped me get out of my head and start living life. CBT while on medication was even better which I highly recommend you do both together. I personally didn't have any side effects on Lexapro after the first month. First month was some mild headaches and significantly reduced libido. Remember that millions take Lexapro daily, vast majority without significant issues- of course there's going to be a selection bias online towards exclaiming side effects and negativity. People who are enjoying life aren't posting about their side effects of their medication online. Getting online folks opinion's is great and all but ultimately you just gotta talk to your doc and try it and see for yourself, you can always come off if you hate it, or stay on if it changes your life.
Legal disclaimer: This is not medical advice- just my personal anecdote to encourage you to seek an opinion from a psychiatrist or your primary care doctor and discuss whether medication is/isn't right for you.
Legal disclaimer: This is not medical advice- just my personal anecdote to encourage you to seek an opinion from a psychiatrist or your primary care doctor and discuss whether medication is/isn't right for you.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Hearing from real folk that have had a range of outcomes is why I asked here on HN and have been hesitant to place much weight in what I have read elsewhere online.
So far experiences seem to have ranged from the medication did nothing, it supported them through therapy or completely changed their life. Overall though hearing that for most people any side-effects were either minimal or worth the improvement in quality of life has given me a renewed energy to seek treatment again.
So thanks again, everyone here has been so very kind.
So far experiences seem to have ranged from the medication did nothing, it supported them through therapy or completely changed their life. Overall though hearing that for most people any side-effects were either minimal or worth the improvement in quality of life has given me a renewed energy to seek treatment again.
So thanks again, everyone here has been so very kind.
I have taken SSRI's in the past; I don't currently. I do currently see a therapist. I sometimes consider taking SSRI's again. I'm not sure if I've ever "triumphed", but my emotional health is lot better than it's been at it's worst. I still feel a lot of challenges.
I'm not sure it's true that SSRI's have "really bad side-effects for most people that take them." I know some people have mild side effects, medium side effects, or really bad side-effects. A few people have no side effects. I doubt that most people have really bad side-effects; most people with really bad side-effects probably stop taking them.
If you feel like it's a last resort, why not try it? If you don't like it, you can always stop. I think your "utter terror" (in your words) is related to your struggles for emotional health, yeah -- there's no reason for utter terror.
I'd also look for a therapist you find more useful.
I'd also consider meditation.
I'd also consider talking to a doctor about your sleep problems specifically, since you mention that as a particular concern.
Once you get to the point that you are desperate that you just don't want to live that way -- and I've been there -- why not try, literally, anything? What do you have to lose?
I'm not sure it's true that SSRI's have "really bad side-effects for most people that take them." I know some people have mild side effects, medium side effects, or really bad side-effects. A few people have no side effects. I doubt that most people have really bad side-effects; most people with really bad side-effects probably stop taking them.
If you feel like it's a last resort, why not try it? If you don't like it, you can always stop. I think your "utter terror" (in your words) is related to your struggles for emotional health, yeah -- there's no reason for utter terror.
I'd also look for a therapist you find more useful.
I'd also consider meditation.
I'd also consider talking to a doctor about your sleep problems specifically, since you mention that as a particular concern.
Once you get to the point that you are desperate that you just don't want to live that way -- and I've been there -- why not try, literally, anything? What do you have to lose?
The responses to this thread seem overwhelming to me, as someone who has struggled with burnout/depression.
I think these are the important takeaways:
* Talk to a medical professional, like a doctor / GP
* Keep talking to your therapist if it helps. Look for a new therapist if your current one isn't a good fit.
* Work with your "care team" (therapist, doctor, loved ones) to create a treatment plan. Agree on ways to check in / track, so you can adjust the plan.
"Treatment plan" might include medication, but also combination of diet/exercise/practices like journaling.
Mental health and wellbeing is a spectrum. Nothing about health is permanent; it all requires upkeep.
You probably take lots of other supplements without thinking about it, like enriched flour or fortified milk. SSRIs supplement insufficient serotonin production (the causes of this are very complicated).
The contraindications, lifestyle changes, side effects that accompany SSRIs are not trivial. Your fears are valid.
Remember that you're in control of your treatment plan though. If you feel worse or decide the trade-offs aren't worth it, you can keep tweaking or remove mediation entirely.
Don't give up!
I think these are the important takeaways:
* Talk to a medical professional, like a doctor / GP
* Keep talking to your therapist if it helps. Look for a new therapist if your current one isn't a good fit.
* Work with your "care team" (therapist, doctor, loved ones) to create a treatment plan. Agree on ways to check in / track, so you can adjust the plan.
"Treatment plan" might include medication, but also combination of diet/exercise/practices like journaling.
Mental health and wellbeing is a spectrum. Nothing about health is permanent; it all requires upkeep.
You probably take lots of other supplements without thinking about it, like enriched flour or fortified milk. SSRIs supplement insufficient serotonin production (the causes of this are very complicated).
The contraindications, lifestyle changes, side effects that accompany SSRIs are not trivial. Your fears are valid.
Remember that you're in control of your treatment plan though. If you feel worse or decide the trade-offs aren't worth it, you can keep tweaking or remove mediation entirely.
Don't give up!
Thanks for the advice/encouragement, it's appreciated.
This got a lot more responses than I anticipated but by and large they have been very informative, supportive and I'm very grateful for everyone that has shared their journey.
This got a lot more responses than I anticipated but by and large they have been very informative, supportive and I'm very grateful for everyone that has shared their journey.
Hello. I wanted to chime in that Prozac changed my life in 2016. I wrote about my experiences here: https://twitter.com/theshawwn/status/1392213804684038150?s=2...
I’ve always wondered if I simply lucked out. But the usual caveats apply: talk to your doctor, I am a datapoint of one, etc.
But they do work for some lucky people, and there is a chance you’re one of them.
“Walking around with a pit in my stomach” is a feeling I vaguely remember having before 2016, but at the time it felt like endless doom. Perhaps in five years your pain will feel like a distant memory too.
It seems to be true that not-Prozac might be a bad idea. The anecdata is pretty strong that Welbuterin and Lexapro have side effects that offset any benefit. Everyone reacts differently, but the side effects for me have been quite tolerable.
If you do try it, note you won’t experience any effect unless you take it every day for 30 days. I almost missed the benefits because of giving up too early.
I’ve always wondered if I simply lucked out. But the usual caveats apply: talk to your doctor, I am a datapoint of one, etc.
But they do work for some lucky people, and there is a chance you’re one of them.
“Walking around with a pit in my stomach” is a feeling I vaguely remember having before 2016, but at the time it felt like endless doom. Perhaps in five years your pain will feel like a distant memory too.
It seems to be true that not-Prozac might be a bad idea. The anecdata is pretty strong that Welbuterin and Lexapro have side effects that offset any benefit. Everyone reacts differently, but the side effects for me have been quite tolerable.
If you do try it, note you won’t experience any effect unless you take it every day for 30 days. I almost missed the benefits because of giving up too early.
Don't overthink this or spend too much time researching. Improving mental health is very much trial and error.
If you're uncomfortable taking anti-depressants, start with therapy and improvements to diet and exercise. For a lot of people this is enough.
If after a while, you're not getting the results you want, try an antidepressant. You may have to try a few since they work differently for different folks.
If you're taking the anti-depressants and don't want to anymore, try reducing the dose or stopping altogether. A lot of people only need them temporarily. Some people find them useful long-term.
If you're uncomfortable taking anti-depressants, start with therapy and improvements to diet and exercise. For a lot of people this is enough.
If after a while, you're not getting the results you want, try an antidepressant. You may have to try a few since they work differently for different folks.
If you're taking the anti-depressants and don't want to anymore, try reducing the dose or stopping altogether. A lot of people only need them temporarily. Some people find them useful long-term.
When this comes up among friends I always ask, "If you had diabetes you'd take insulin right? Why is mental health any different?"
Find a psychiatrist and see them regularly so they can monitor your mood and response to the drugs. And stick with the therapy while doing this.
The combination is key, the meds will make getting through the day easier, and the therapy will help you find coping mechanisms and be more self aware of your emotions in a productive manner. This sounds hard and dumb but will be easier with the meds.
Then as you feel better you can work with both providers to adjust your meds or test removing them if that's something you want.
But at the end of the day, you need to talk with professionals. They're trained to help and will allow you to talk about specifics in ways that could identify triggers. Take it from someone with years of therapy and psychiatrist visits under my belt. It feels like it's not working at first, but you need to keep with it and follow through.
Good luck and I hope you find the help you're looking for.
Find a psychiatrist and see them regularly so they can monitor your mood and response to the drugs. And stick with the therapy while doing this.
The combination is key, the meds will make getting through the day easier, and the therapy will help you find coping mechanisms and be more self aware of your emotions in a productive manner. This sounds hard and dumb but will be easier with the meds.
Then as you feel better you can work with both providers to adjust your meds or test removing them if that's something you want.
But at the end of the day, you need to talk with professionals. They're trained to help and will allow you to talk about specifics in ways that could identify triggers. Take it from someone with years of therapy and psychiatrist visits under my belt. It feels like it's not working at first, but you need to keep with it and follow through.
Good luck and I hope you find the help you're looking for.
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SSRI's didn't work too well for me, I ended up feeling like a zombie, personally. Wellbutrin (Bupropion; more of a mild stimulant) was alright for a little bit as a medium-term solution; I had a touch of anxiety for a week or two, but the antidepressant effect wore off after about a year. The main thing for me was changing my life circumstance...which is a tall order when you're depressed, but easier if you have a leg up with an antidepressant and plan things a little bit/give yourself some rails for the near future. Arthur Miller talked about how depression can inform your existence; maybe you've got chemical issues, but consider your mode of existence. Maybe try a change in direction? I don't know your circumstance, but the job market is good right now for that sort of thing. Life has taken a strange turn for me the past few years, I don't know how universal my experience is, lol.
About 6 months ago I started experiencing a level of depression that was stronger than I ever had. About 3 months ago, I started seeing a therapist; and, about 3 weeks ago, I finally decided to see a psychiatrist and get anti-depressants.
Talk to your doctor or psychiatrist about everything before making any decisions. I am not a doctor. This is not medical advice.
When I started anti-depressants, it started as nothing happening, but when they kicked in, for the first time in, basically ever, I spun myself up into actual, genuine happiness. I hadn't felt actual happiness in ... possibly decades, and I didn't even know what I had been missing.
I have a long battle ahead; but at least for me, anti-depressants showed me a little bit of what can be and I am so, so grateful for them.
edit:
Sorry, I should also add: before I was prescribed anti-depressants, I was journalling (I still am); and, before that, I had been using exercise to help handle the anger and sadness in me.
Talk to your doctor or psychiatrist about everything before making any decisions. I am not a doctor. This is not medical advice.
When I started anti-depressants, it started as nothing happening, but when they kicked in, for the first time in, basically ever, I spun myself up into actual, genuine happiness. I hadn't felt actual happiness in ... possibly decades, and I didn't even know what I had been missing.
I have a long battle ahead; but at least for me, anti-depressants showed me a little bit of what can be and I am so, so grateful for them.
edit:
Sorry, I should also add: before I was prescribed anti-depressants, I was journalling (I still am); and, before that, I had been using exercise to help handle the anger and sadness in me.
That's exactly my thought, if I knew I was deeply depressed, I feel like antidepressants would be worthwhile simply to calibrate my sense of what "normal" is supposed to feel like, without any particular expectation I'd use them indefinitely.
I've found very deep breathing exercises have helped me in the past. I highly suggest the Wim Hof method, tied to cold therapy. It has helped me avoid negative thoughts, and move away from procrastination.
I've found it helpful to also focus on non-digital tasks. step away from tvs, computers, phones, grab a book, sit under the sun. Don't study, play. Sit on the ground. The earth's field is something we often ignore but some studies show it is necessary to reconnect.
Your gut is also something I have tired to manage; cut sugars, test your blood for acidity, avoid certain vegetables (The vegetable paradox), consider parasite management periodically (ivermectin has no side effects), avoid plastics ingestion as much as you can, reduce alcohol as much as you can.
This helps. Hope it is something you can try.
I have always had anxiety and catastrophic thinking that then spirals into depression, but a few years back it became so acute I had trouble eating and sleeping which only made my anxiety and depression worse. I had to do something and sought a prescription and was given Escitalopram. It worked really well for me, but there were side effects and I weaned myself off after about a year. There were some minor withdrawal symptoms, but nothing that made it more difficult to stop taking the drugs. Even with the side effects I would do it again. It got me through a rough patch in my life and now I know there is an option if my anxiety ever gets bad again.
If your depression is causing a lack of sleep or other unhealthy habits that can exacerbate depression and anxiety it is worth talking to a doctor to see what your prescription options are.
If your depression is causing a lack of sleep or other unhealthy habits that can exacerbate depression and anxiety it is worth talking to a doctor to see what your prescription options are.
Standard disclaimers - don't take my advice, I'm not a doctor, be smarter than "hey strofcon said...". :-)
Ketamine's been working wonders for me, though it's only been a month. That said, the research on it has proven fascinating, and it really is helping me to fundamentally reevaluate some beliefs that, evidently, were in need of reevaluation.
Still a loooooong road I suspect, but it's the only thing that's ever helped me.
Normal meds never touched it, lifestyle changes are a nice platitude to make neurotypicals feel smugly helpful, and while societal structures definitely play a larger role than we care to admit, they're absolutely not going to change in our favor.
Anyway, something to read up on and ask your psychiatrist about. :-)
Happy to answer questions if you have any, though again - I are not doctor.
Ketamine's been working wonders for me, though it's only been a month. That said, the research on it has proven fascinating, and it really is helping me to fundamentally reevaluate some beliefs that, evidently, were in need of reevaluation.
Still a loooooong road I suspect, but it's the only thing that's ever helped me.
Normal meds never touched it, lifestyle changes are a nice platitude to make neurotypicals feel smugly helpful, and while societal structures definitely play a larger role than we care to admit, they're absolutely not going to change in our favor.
Anyway, something to read up on and ask your psychiatrist about. :-)
Happy to answer questions if you have any, though again - I are not doctor.
Minor thing, but I have both ADHD and likely depression (therapist thinks so, psychiatrist thinks so but has not formally diagnosed me).
One thing that I was surprised worked well was SAM-E, a supplement that has shown results in treating both ADHD/Depression. I don't give too much credence to supplements, but this dealt with 2 things I struggle with and since taking it I have made progress feeling better. (Now, whether it was just coincidence or it did anything I can't say).
The other thing is that Vitamin D is incredibly important and most people are deficient, and there have been a lot of studies recently showing that we should be getting even more than is already recommended. I've been taking a form of D3 (started around the same time as SAM-E).
One thing that I was surprised worked well was SAM-E, a supplement that has shown results in treating both ADHD/Depression. I don't give too much credence to supplements, but this dealt with 2 things I struggle with and since taking it I have made progress feeling better. (Now, whether it was just coincidence or it did anything I can't say).
The other thing is that Vitamin D is incredibly important and most people are deficient, and there have been a lot of studies recently showing that we should be getting even more than is already recommended. I've been taking a form of D3 (started around the same time as SAM-E).
My function and life satisfaction were dangerously low. I decided it was likely I'd enjoy my life more even though there might be additional issues from the medication. I was right. My memory isn't nearly as strong as it was, my libido is quite low, but I'm in far less pain than I was and, ironically, am able to function at a much higher level even though my raw capacity is diminished. Hope that helps.
LSD / psilocybin mushrooms and meditation. Almost completely cured after a single dose. For me it was about reframing your perspective (nothing is inherently good or bad, but thinking makes it so), and meditation helps keep the frame.
(Some will say to run to doctors and therapists, and if western medicine had a better track record for curing mental anguish I’d be inclined to believe them.
https://www.thecut.com/2016/03/for-80-years-young-americans-...
This is my own experience. If you trust western psychiatric treatments for yourself then go for it.)
(Some will say to run to doctors and therapists, and if western medicine had a better track record for curing mental anguish I’d be inclined to believe them.
https://www.thecut.com/2016/03/for-80-years-young-americans-...
This is my own experience. If you trust western psychiatric treatments for yourself then go for it.)
I’m not qualified to provide medical advice, but I have a lot of personal experience to share which may or may not be helpful. Some things I’ve learned through the years, speaking only for myself (early onset bipolar-ii, many different doctors and meds over the years):
- Not all doctors are created equal. I’m very glad I got some second opinions on medication regimens. If you have access to that level of care, try talking to more than one doctor about your options.
- It was tricky but necessary for me to balance a medical professional’s superior knowledge in certain areas against my own intuition and internal awareness. I have (correctly) chosen to decline proposed treatments that I felt were inappropriate based on the experiences loved ones had had on similar regimens. I don’t have an easy answer on this one, sometimes the doctor may know best. For me I had to feel the medical professional and myself were working as a team, and they should treat me as a team mate. If this wasn’t the case I had the (immense) privilege of being able to find a new doctor even if it took a while.
- My journey to find the right treatment was essentially trial and error and that seems common among my friends as well. Some had crappy side effects. None of them were dangerous for me or permanent. I have tried many different medications and none of the experiences I had were scary or risky, even if some side effects were really unpleasant.
- I found the right medication with a doctor I trusted. It has changed my life. I made the right choice for myself by pursuing treatment.
- It’s possible I could have toughed it out, but with medication all the energy I spent staying alive could be spent thriving and that has made all the difference. I am glad I made the choice to use meds to manage my mental health.
- I have found a lot of healing with the use of psychedelics, which some have mentioned. In Oregon they’ll be approving them for therapeutic use in specific settings soon and I’m hopeful this will be another option that could help some people. The impact can be unpredictable which is why I like the idea of someone providing guidance instead of individuals taking it alone. So while I see a lot of potential, I also think it can be risky to try solo without a strong support system.
This is hard work you’re doing and good for you for exploring and trying to find the choice that is right for you in this moment. I hope you find some relief <3
- Not all doctors are created equal. I’m very glad I got some second opinions on medication regimens. If you have access to that level of care, try talking to more than one doctor about your options.
- It was tricky but necessary for me to balance a medical professional’s superior knowledge in certain areas against my own intuition and internal awareness. I have (correctly) chosen to decline proposed treatments that I felt were inappropriate based on the experiences loved ones had had on similar regimens. I don’t have an easy answer on this one, sometimes the doctor may know best. For me I had to feel the medical professional and myself were working as a team, and they should treat me as a team mate. If this wasn’t the case I had the (immense) privilege of being able to find a new doctor even if it took a while.
- My journey to find the right treatment was essentially trial and error and that seems common among my friends as well. Some had crappy side effects. None of them were dangerous for me or permanent. I have tried many different medications and none of the experiences I had were scary or risky, even if some side effects were really unpleasant.
- I found the right medication with a doctor I trusted. It has changed my life. I made the right choice for myself by pursuing treatment.
- It’s possible I could have toughed it out, but with medication all the energy I spent staying alive could be spent thriving and that has made all the difference. I am glad I made the choice to use meds to manage my mental health.
- I have found a lot of healing with the use of psychedelics, which some have mentioned. In Oregon they’ll be approving them for therapeutic use in specific settings soon and I’m hopeful this will be another option that could help some people. The impact can be unpredictable which is why I like the idea of someone providing guidance instead of individuals taking it alone. So while I see a lot of potential, I also think it can be risky to try solo without a strong support system.
This is hard work you’re doing and good for you for exploring and trying to find the choice that is right for you in this moment. I hope you find some relief <3
A month ago, I started taking N-acetylcysteine (NAC) 600mg twice a day. My anxiety has reduced to about 10% of its previous intensity and frequency. This is the biggest quality-of-life improvement of my entire life. Maybe NAC will help you, too?
A few years ago, I had fatigue. My doctor tested my blood and found extremely low vitamin D. I started taking vitamin D3, magnesium glycinate, and vitamin B. My fatigue mostly disappeared about three weeks later.
About a year ago, I had brain fog. I took 75mg pure CBD (FreshBros.com gummies) every night for two weeks. The brain fog went away.
After taking caffeine or alcohol, I usually have increased anxiety the next day. Avoid these drugs.
After a 5-mile walk, my mood improves for a day or two. I listen to audio books to avoid ruminating. I enjoyed th Culture series by Iain M Banks. Downpour.com has a decent iOS app. Bose SoundSport bluetooth headphones are comfortable and practical. Darn Tough Merino Full Cushion socks are very comfortable and last 150 miles. I use a backpack to carry water, snack, sun hat, sweater, and rain jacket.
During the worst of the pandemic, I found it difficult to concentrate on work during the day. I added some very bright lights to my workspace. Afterward, I noticed a significant improvement in focus and mood. I use two IKEA floor lamps with FEIT PAR38 55W LED 5000-lumen bulbs illuminating the ceiling and wall around my monitor. I also use three FEIT OM200 25W 3000-lumen bulbs in a ceiling fixture.
I hope you find good solutions to your mood problems.
A few years ago, I had fatigue. My doctor tested my blood and found extremely low vitamin D. I started taking vitamin D3, magnesium glycinate, and vitamin B. My fatigue mostly disappeared about three weeks later.
About a year ago, I had brain fog. I took 75mg pure CBD (FreshBros.com gummies) every night for two weeks. The brain fog went away.
After taking caffeine or alcohol, I usually have increased anxiety the next day. Avoid these drugs.
After a 5-mile walk, my mood improves for a day or two. I listen to audio books to avoid ruminating. I enjoyed th Culture series by Iain M Banks. Downpour.com has a decent iOS app. Bose SoundSport bluetooth headphones are comfortable and practical. Darn Tough Merino Full Cushion socks are very comfortable and last 150 miles. I use a backpack to carry water, snack, sun hat, sweater, and rain jacket.
During the worst of the pandemic, I found it difficult to concentrate on work during the day. I added some very bright lights to my workspace. Afterward, I noticed a significant improvement in focus and mood. I use two IKEA floor lamps with FEIT PAR38 55W LED 5000-lumen bulbs illuminating the ceiling and wall around my monitor. I also use three FEIT OM200 25W 3000-lumen bulbs in a ceiling fixture.
I hope you find good solutions to your mood problems.
Are you in the US? There seems to be lots of research on psychedelics for treatment these days. It's a very interesting part of the field. From everything I understand, it's not daily dosing, but only occasionally, and possibly only once.
Others have mentioned deep breathing, you may also want to look into Holotropic Breathwork. Maybe a bit woo-woo for you, but I had a fun experience, though I don't suffer from depression.
We were looking at depression treatments a little while ago for our work in neurotech/sleeptech. There is very solid research on sleep deprivation for treatment of depression. We decided to not pursue that avenue because we're focused on improving sleep, AND it can be a dangerous treatment. Specifically not to be used if you are manic depressive, as it pushes you right into mania.
However, when I was researching depression and sleep, and talking to people with depression, one person mentioned that when he feels himself sliding, he makes sure he gets exercise, and keeps it up for a few days. He says that normally keeps him from sliding. He doesn't take SSRIs, but was diagnosed by a psychiatrist, so not a self diagnosis.
----additional---- Lastly, don't apologize about depression being a taboo subject. It is becoming much less so, and it's important to talk about it. Pushing it under the rug and ignoring the problem hasn't helped over the last 50 years (or longer).
Others have mentioned deep breathing, you may also want to look into Holotropic Breathwork. Maybe a bit woo-woo for you, but I had a fun experience, though I don't suffer from depression.
We were looking at depression treatments a little while ago for our work in neurotech/sleeptech. There is very solid research on sleep deprivation for treatment of depression. We decided to not pursue that avenue because we're focused on improving sleep, AND it can be a dangerous treatment. Specifically not to be used if you are manic depressive, as it pushes you right into mania.
However, when I was researching depression and sleep, and talking to people with depression, one person mentioned that when he feels himself sliding, he makes sure he gets exercise, and keeps it up for a few days. He says that normally keeps him from sliding. He doesn't take SSRIs, but was diagnosed by a psychiatrist, so not a self diagnosis.
----additional---- Lastly, don't apologize about depression being a taboo subject. It is becoming much less so, and it's important to talk about it. Pushing it under the rug and ignoring the problem hasn't helped over the last 50 years (or longer).
Remember that a lot of people's issue with antidepressant medications stems from how widely they're prescribed. For somebody going through a fairly minor and "normal" depressive episode, the cure might be worse than the poison. A lot of doctors crank out antidepressant prescriptions, and for somebody whose condition would subside with fairly minor lifestyle changes or time, they can definitely be worse off for it. This is what you hear a lot of on the internet. I'm not your doctor, but this does not sound like you.
I've had one bout of anxiety that I went on medication for. Normally I have other ways to cope with depressive/anxious times, but in this case, there was nothing to cope with; everything was going well for me by every metric. When it started to seriously interfere with my life, I decided to give SSRIs a try. For the first week, I woke up a few times in the middle of the night, but other than that, I didn't experience any side effects. It addressed my anxiety and I was on them for about 5 months. The side effects could have been quite a bit worse and it still would have been better for my health than the constant anxiety. I know people that have had issues with antidepressants, but nobody I know has ended up completely fried because of them.
Talk to a doctor about what's best for you, but don't write off medication because of the possible (they are not guaranteed) side effects. If you are depressed to the point you are struggling to function in absence of anything actually going wrong in your life, the risks of continuing with that could very well be worse than the side effects of medication.
I've had one bout of anxiety that I went on medication for. Normally I have other ways to cope with depressive/anxious times, but in this case, there was nothing to cope with; everything was going well for me by every metric. When it started to seriously interfere with my life, I decided to give SSRIs a try. For the first week, I woke up a few times in the middle of the night, but other than that, I didn't experience any side effects. It addressed my anxiety and I was on them for about 5 months. The side effects could have been quite a bit worse and it still would have been better for my health than the constant anxiety. I know people that have had issues with antidepressants, but nobody I know has ended up completely fried because of them.
Talk to a doctor about what's best for you, but don't write off medication because of the possible (they are not guaranteed) side effects. If you are depressed to the point you are struggling to function in absence of anything actually going wrong in your life, the risks of continuing with that could very well be worse than the side effects of medication.
I never really considered how overzealous prescription could impact the efficacy and side-effect data. I guess if your case isn't that severe you are also more likely to quit due to side-effects also which is intuitive but not something I had considered before.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
My experience is that you should meet with a professional. There are more medications that just SSRIs. There are various skills they can teach that will help, and programs that can help if you don't want medication. They can also help you test what works for you, because this is not an area where everyone lands on the same answers -- you can collect piles of anecdotes of what did and did not work for others, but ultimately your solution will be unique.
Personal experience:
I've tried quite a few antidepressants over the years. Lexapro was the one that's actually worked, and kept working. You have to start at a half dose and acclimate to it, and it really doesn't kick in until you're on the full dose for a bit.
Beyond simply finding a medication that works, having a therapist to talk to was surprisingly important for me. I didn't think I needed one, but as my moods went from black and blue to optimistic (normal?) I was worried it was doing too much to me.
Being able to talk to someone without fear of being judged, or marring social or family relations, helped me realize what feeling normal was actually like.
Long story short, side effects are real. Don't panic, but don't ignore them either if they interfere with your normal routine. Expect that the first medication may not be the one; mental illnesses are poorly understood, so it will take time and be totally worth it if you put in the patience and effort
Finally, learn what triggers you. Feeling shitty temporarily is natural, but when your mind has been conditioned to spiral that into long term funk, it'll take more than medication to fix- this is where your therapist can help big time.
I've tried quite a few antidepressants over the years. Lexapro was the one that's actually worked, and kept working. You have to start at a half dose and acclimate to it, and it really doesn't kick in until you're on the full dose for a bit.
Beyond simply finding a medication that works, having a therapist to talk to was surprisingly important for me. I didn't think I needed one, but as my moods went from black and blue to optimistic (normal?) I was worried it was doing too much to me.
Being able to talk to someone without fear of being judged, or marring social or family relations, helped me realize what feeling normal was actually like.
Long story short, side effects are real. Don't panic, but don't ignore them either if they interfere with your normal routine. Expect that the first medication may not be the one; mental illnesses are poorly understood, so it will take time and be totally worth it if you put in the patience and effort
Finally, learn what triggers you. Feeling shitty temporarily is natural, but when your mind has been conditioned to spiral that into long term funk, it'll take more than medication to fix- this is where your therapist can help big time.
Your utter terror of these drugs is not warranted. Yes, some of them have intolerable side effects. Some of them will just be ineffective. But there are lots and lots of different antidepressants and there is probably one that will work for you without intolerable side effects. If there isn't, then there are other options (ketamine or TMS for example - but you can't start with these, you have to try antidepressants first). It will take time to figure out, and it will be a lot of work, but you owe it to yourself to at least try, especially if therapy alone hasn't worked.
My advice is to get an actual psychiatrist. Your PCP will prescribe antidepressants, but in my experience you'll be way better off relying on the expertise of a specialist, especially if you need to sort through which medication is best for you personally.
If you should be in utter terror of anything, it's depression. It is a potentially fatal illness.
Also, seriously, don't get medical advice on the internet. Would you ask a random sample of strangers on the street to direct your medical care? I'm guessing no, but that's exactly what you've done here.
My advice is to get an actual psychiatrist. Your PCP will prescribe antidepressants, but in my experience you'll be way better off relying on the expertise of a specialist, especially if you need to sort through which medication is best for you personally.
If you should be in utter terror of anything, it's depression. It is a potentially fatal illness.
Also, seriously, don't get medical advice on the internet. Would you ask a random sample of strangers on the street to direct your medical care? I'm guessing no, but that's exactly what you've done here.
The whole "don't ask for advice from strangers" thing has been repeated a lot in this thread.
I'm not asking for advice, I'm asking for anecdotes, success and failure stories, etc. Real experiences with tackling these problems and the medications that professionals prescribe or ways people have come to "beat" or manage their depression without said medications.
I'm not going to self medicate and I'm not going to make a decision on a specific treatment based on what I read here, I will consult a professional when taking that step.
Thank you for the rest of your advice and thoughts however, it's gratefully received.
FWIW I am terrified of depression. I've seen my greatest heroes all die from it and deep down I know if I take no action I will be among them someday.
I'm not asking for advice, I'm asking for anecdotes, success and failure stories, etc. Real experiences with tackling these problems and the medications that professionals prescribe or ways people have come to "beat" or manage their depression without said medications.
I'm not going to self medicate and I'm not going to make a decision on a specific treatment based on what I read here, I will consult a professional when taking that step.
Thank you for the rest of your advice and thoughts however, it's gratefully received.
FWIW I am terrified of depression. I've seen my greatest heroes all die from it and deep down I know if I take no action I will be among them someday.
Check out the book feeling great by David Burns, known for popularizing CBT.
It's an updated handbook of some of the most recent techniques for managing the way you feel. It also has some good tips on how to find a therapist to work with if the book isn't enough.
The book leans towards avoiding antidepressants but stresses that in some extreme cases they might be best.
Sorry you've been feeling that way. Good luck!
It's an updated handbook of some of the most recent techniques for managing the way you feel. It also has some good tips on how to find a therapist to work with if the book isn't enough.
The book leans towards avoiding antidepressants but stresses that in some extreme cases they might be best.
Sorry you've been feeling that way. Good luck!
I listened to his podcast. It is really good and I enjoy it. But I found something even better that worked for me which is the audiobook Self-coaching by Dr. J Luciani. It is on audible for free right now if you have an account.
I was put off by the title (self-coaching) but boy was I wrong and I now highly recommend it. For my own story I came to terms with being "smart enough" for life. This is after years of anxiety and depression from high school onward. I am amazed given my suffering that I did as well as I did!
Also medication does work. I ran the gamut of them until I settled on Wellbutrin XL. It also took me 25 years to figure out that alcohol, while it relieves my anxiety and depression in the moment, just makes things 10x worse. That and I need to eat properly. So I limit my drinking as much as possible and I know not to drink when stressed.
It gets better my friend.
I was put off by the title (self-coaching) but boy was I wrong and I now highly recommend it. For my own story I came to terms with being "smart enough" for life. This is after years of anxiety and depression from high school onward. I am amazed given my suffering that I did as well as I did!
Also medication does work. I ran the gamut of them until I settled on Wellbutrin XL. It also took me 25 years to figure out that alcohol, while it relieves my anxiety and depression in the moment, just makes things 10x worse. That and I need to eat properly. So I limit my drinking as much as possible and I know not to drink when stressed.
It gets better my friend.
Ayyyy, Wellbutrin squad! :D
I think anybody who is depressed should try: (1) aerobic exercise (30 min a day is good, 2 hours a day is great), (2) therapy, (3) antidepressants.
Depression is bad enough that you should attack with all of those.
If you are going to try meds it is fine to see a primary care doc, but to get the best results you are probably going to try something, wait two or three weeks, change the dose, wait, change the dose, maybe try a different medicine if the first one doesn't work for you.
You get much better results if you do the above then if you just try 1 prescription.
Depression is bad enough that you should attack with all of those.
If you are going to try meds it is fine to see a primary care doc, but to get the best results you are probably going to try something, wait two or three weeks, change the dose, wait, change the dose, maybe try a different medicine if the first one doesn't work for you.
You get much better results if you do the above then if you just try 1 prescription.
> CBT
It seriously isn't a good idea to self-prescribe cannabinoids for depression. While it may work great for people experiencing a temporary bout of the condition, it can make things significantly worse for people with life-long depression.
It seriously isn't a good idea to self-prescribe cannabinoids for depression. While it may work great for people experiencing a temporary bout of the condition, it can make things significantly worse for people with life-long depression.
Antidepressants saved my marriage and the early development of my daughter.
My wife suffered a combination of depression and PTSD caused by a very bad childhood since basically middle school.
Under the stress of a newborn child it started to escalate to dangerous levels so she seeked help. After many failed therapy attempts she landed on Sertraline, which caused her symptoms to almost completely vanish and had only very mild side effects.
In the beginning she could not believe that neurotypical people feel like that all the time because she could not even remember a time anymore without depression and anxiety.
It fundamentally changed her and after 2 years of taking it, for the first time since she can remember, she is worried about the future and looking forward to it instead of hoping that she may die soon.
Talk to your doctor, get good advice, but don't be too afraid to try medication because it could potentially vastly improve your quality of life.
My wife suffered a combination of depression and PTSD caused by a very bad childhood since basically middle school.
Under the stress of a newborn child it started to escalate to dangerous levels so she seeked help. After many failed therapy attempts she landed on Sertraline, which caused her symptoms to almost completely vanish and had only very mild side effects.
In the beginning she could not believe that neurotypical people feel like that all the time because she could not even remember a time anymore without depression and anxiety.
It fundamentally changed her and after 2 years of taking it, for the first time since she can remember, she is worried about the future and looking forward to it instead of hoping that she may die soon.
Talk to your doctor, get good advice, but don't be too afraid to try medication because it could potentially vastly improve your quality of life.
Estrogen, ecstasy, and a lot of internal self-work did it for me.
Then I moved to Seattle and the insane lack of sunlight gave me a ton of seasonal depression. A huge sun lamp and megadoses of vitamin D kept it at bay but it still kept creeping up, I felt like I had about 3y left before the suicidal urges won when I moved somewhere sunnier.
Then I moved to Seattle and the insane lack of sunlight gave me a ton of seasonal depression. A huge sun lamp and megadoses of vitamin D kept it at bay but it still kept creeping up, I felt like I had about 3y left before the suicidal urges won when I moved somewhere sunnier.
> These drugs are very powerful but have really bad side-effects for most people that take them
for people that take larger doses and for longer periods, you're going to be dealing with that more frequently. It's not quite binary - there's a number of different drugs with different results for different people. By not talking to a doctor you are only keeping yourself in the dark - this is fine, but you are limiting your field of options. If you've got some timeline/end goal where you can define your life as less stressful, you could go on them to buckle down (if alternatives arent working and the duration makes sense), but unless that timeline then results in another change to your whole health situation, you haven't done much but avoid the problem.
personal experience: needed them in order to get here, ran out of reasons to take them, dropped them (15~ years)
for people that take larger doses and for longer periods, you're going to be dealing with that more frequently. It's not quite binary - there's a number of different drugs with different results for different people. By not talking to a doctor you are only keeping yourself in the dark - this is fine, but you are limiting your field of options. If you've got some timeline/end goal where you can define your life as less stressful, you could go on them to buckle down (if alternatives arent working and the duration makes sense), but unless that timeline then results in another change to your whole health situation, you haven't done much but avoid the problem.
personal experience: needed them in order to get here, ran out of reasons to take them, dropped them (15~ years)
Please talk to a therapist first and foremost, preferably a psychologist or psychiatrist. Antidepressants are not an insant cure - you MUST pair them with actual therapy, always.
The test of this comment will be about my personal experience.
I have/had depression (its hard to say if its well and truly gone). SSRIs did not help me. They're effects were somewhere between doing absolutely nothing, placebo, and just making me extremely irritable.
What did help me? Its hard to say. Therapy definitely helps a lot, getting things off your chest. Therapists won't tell you how to think - they'll teach you how to overcome the way you're feeling. I sometimes feel like I just learned to live with depression, rather than being cured of it. Maybe that's not what you want to hear, but that's my experience.
The test of this comment will be about my personal experience.
I have/had depression (its hard to say if its well and truly gone). SSRIs did not help me. They're effects were somewhere between doing absolutely nothing, placebo, and just making me extremely irritable.
What did help me? Its hard to say. Therapy definitely helps a lot, getting things off your chest. Therapists won't tell you how to think - they'll teach you how to overcome the way you're feeling. I sometimes feel like I just learned to live with depression, rather than being cured of it. Maybe that's not what you want to hear, but that's my experience.
Of the people I've known who have done SSRIs, they all spoke negatively of them.
Also just wanted to address a point I'm seeing repeated in this swarm of replies: from what I know not all professionals go the SSRI route. I think many of them are aware of the lack of trust in the pharmaceutical industry.
A professional who doesn't suck will take your concerns over SSRIs seriously. A lot of people here are essentially saying "the professional is right because they are a professional"; I call BS. The professional is right in so far as they show themselves to be right over time
At the same time, it's important to not wait or delay getting help if you're in a downward spiral. Just make sure it's from someone who's trustworthy and respectful of your concerns for your own well being
Also just wanted to address a point I'm seeing repeated in this swarm of replies: from what I know not all professionals go the SSRI route. I think many of them are aware of the lack of trust in the pharmaceutical industry.
A professional who doesn't suck will take your concerns over SSRIs seriously. A lot of people here are essentially saying "the professional is right because they are a professional"; I call BS. The professional is right in so far as they show themselves to be right over time
At the same time, it's important to not wait or delay getting help if you're in a downward spiral. Just make sure it's from someone who's trustworthy and respectful of your concerns for your own well being
Effectively, what you’re trying to do is narrow the list of causes.
It almost sounds biological only nature if it’s been this way your entire life, unless you’ve also been constantly stressed your entire life.
So what I would recommend is just trying to check off the basics. This is going to be trial and error if you’re serious about solving your problem.
A bit like making sure the computer is plugged in.
A very common cause of depression is Vitamin D insufficiency for example. I’d order some supplements and see if that helps. Followed by magnesium. Because that’s also a common cause of panic attacks (at least anecdotally).
I’m not saying this will cure you. I’m just providing it as an example of where to begin since it’s relatively common and I don’t know much about you.
Don’t give up. Make a checklist if you have to. This is going to be a long process of trial and error.
It almost sounds biological only nature if it’s been this way your entire life, unless you’ve also been constantly stressed your entire life.
So what I would recommend is just trying to check off the basics. This is going to be trial and error if you’re serious about solving your problem.
A bit like making sure the computer is plugged in.
A very common cause of depression is Vitamin D insufficiency for example. I’d order some supplements and see if that helps. Followed by magnesium. Because that’s also a common cause of panic attacks (at least anecdotally).
I’m not saying this will cure you. I’m just providing it as an example of where to begin since it’s relatively common and I don’t know much about you.
Don’t give up. Make a checklist if you have to. This is going to be a long process of trial and error.
> [SSRIs] have really bad side effects for most people that take them.
This is an exaggeration according to the statistics I've found. Most people have _some_ side effects, maybe. Certainly _some_ people have really bad side effects. But not most.
Just try the drugs. If you experience bad side effects, stop taking them (weaning off properly of course).
My longtime partner has dealt with fairly severe depression and anxiety since she was a young. She finally started on SSRIs two months ago and they're working remarkably well. Like... life-changing kind of well, if this keeps up (and there's no reason to expect otherwise with these drugs, AFAICT). She was very concerned about side effects, but has had essentially zero besides mild discomfort the first two or three days while getting acclimated to the dose.
YMMV of course.
This is an exaggeration according to the statistics I've found. Most people have _some_ side effects, maybe. Certainly _some_ people have really bad side effects. But not most.
Just try the drugs. If you experience bad side effects, stop taking them (weaning off properly of course).
My longtime partner has dealt with fairly severe depression and anxiety since she was a young. She finally started on SSRIs two months ago and they're working remarkably well. Like... life-changing kind of well, if this keeps up (and there's no reason to expect otherwise with these drugs, AFAICT). She was very concerned about side effects, but has had essentially zero besides mild discomfort the first two or three days while getting acclimated to the dose.
YMMV of course.
Get every help you can.
No, the side effects are not "really bad". Especially not for "most people". Your post says to me you are self-diagnosing and working of a warped set of information from who knows what kind of sources. Ask professionals to diagnose and treat you.
No, the side effects are not "really bad". Especially not for "most people". Your post says to me you are self-diagnosing and working of a warped set of information from who knows what kind of sources. Ask professionals to diagnose and treat you.
My experiences with depression seem mostly environmental. I haven't tried medication, but I do know that when I'm hiking and dancing regularly, my depression goes away.
Dance in particular changed my life more than once. It's exercise, it's social, and partner dances give you a lot of physical touch, which is great for helping balance your brain. If you can find a class to commit to for a few weeks, that commitment really helps get me out the door if I'm feeling down or numb. Two one hour classes per week was enough to dramatically help.
The best part is that if it doesn't work for you like it did for me, you still have a new skill and new community that can support you while you keep looking for what does.
Dance in particular changed my life more than once. It's exercise, it's social, and partner dances give you a lot of physical touch, which is great for helping balance your brain. If you can find a class to commit to for a few weeks, that commitment really helps get me out the door if I'm feeling down or numb. Two one hour classes per week was enough to dramatically help.
The best part is that if it doesn't work for you like it did for me, you still have a new skill and new community that can support you while you keep looking for what does.
One reason i find these posts useful is if you are at wits end and desperate. My daughter has been diagnosed with depression (and ocd and anxiety). We have tried multiple medications, therapy (CBT, ERP), TMS(self paid because the f#ing insurance wont cover at the time), probiotics,.. Nothing has seemed to help. I look for any avenue that i can explore that brings her relief. Now i look at a comment for poor methylation and that is something we havent checked. Maybe it will help. As long as we always do it with medical professional advice, there is good in knowing the issues involved. No one cares more than the person and family suffering.
That was my comment about methylation? It's currently at +1, maybe you upvoted to balance out a down-vote? ;)
How old is your daughter? Is she on birth control, either for being a fertile woman who doesn't want to be pregnant (i.e., to sabotage her fertility) or to treat dysmenorrhea?
My friend's health was sabotaged with depot provera, the time-release endocrine disruptor. Progesterone is a very important brain hormone. Progesterone USP is a synthetic version of what the body makes for itself.
Sometimes all a person needs to improve their metabolism is real b-vitamins from whole wheat sourdough bread (slow yeast -> natural b-vitamins, instead of synthetic b-vitamins).
You can contact me through Twitter - I have more ideas about solving depression. My username is at the bottom of my Mad In America essay (link in my other comment).
[edit]
How old is your daughter? Is she on birth control, either for being a fertile woman who doesn't want to be pregnant (i.e., to sabotage her fertility) or to treat dysmenorrhea?
My friend's health was sabotaged with depot provera, the time-release endocrine disruptor. Progesterone is a very important brain hormone. Progesterone USP is a synthetic version of what the body makes for itself.
Sometimes all a person needs to improve their metabolism is real b-vitamins from whole wheat sourdough bread (slow yeast -> natural b-vitamins, instead of synthetic b-vitamins).
You can contact me through Twitter - I have more ideas about solving depression. My username is at the bottom of my Mad In America essay (link in my other comment).
[edit]
There's nothing to be ashamed of or frightened of.
First, get on really good probiotics - 30-50 billion CFU. Try that for about 2 weeks. We have recently learned that a lot of brain chemistry originates in the gut. Also get tested for an MTFHR mutation, this is a very common condition that looks like (and gets diagnosed as) depression. Get exercise, speak to a therapist.
> I have been struggling with depression for as long as I can remember.
My psychiatrist indicated that my condition is termed "endogenous." This means that the source of my depression originates purely from chemistry, although it can be affected by exogenous (events around me). I'll be taking pills for the rest of my life. Some people simply need the drugs to fix the chemical problem.
Everyone will experience exogenous depression at least once in their life, and a temporary run on anti-depressants could help them over the hump. It's just like taking pills to address common cold symptoms until you overcome the disease.
One thing to keep in mind is that people have vastly different reactions to certain anti-depressants. The first ones I started taking definitely helped with depression, but I wanted to sleep all day. You need to raise any issues, if you have any, with your doctor so that you can look at other options.
> These drugs are very powerful but have really bad side-effects for most people that take them.
The notion of pumping a chemical into your body via a permanent implant seems pretty extreme on the surface too, doesn't it? Sure, unless your body isn't producing the insulin it needs: https://www.hanselman.com/blog/hacking-diabetes. Your brain is [possibly] not producing the seratonin it needs. If you honestly can't find an anti-depressant that works for you, then you can always stop taking them (after speaking to your doctor). If any of your family members are on anti-depressants that are working well for them, mention that to your doctor.
First, get on really good probiotics - 30-50 billion CFU. Try that for about 2 weeks. We have recently learned that a lot of brain chemistry originates in the gut. Also get tested for an MTFHR mutation, this is a very common condition that looks like (and gets diagnosed as) depression. Get exercise, speak to a therapist.
> I have been struggling with depression for as long as I can remember.
My psychiatrist indicated that my condition is termed "endogenous." This means that the source of my depression originates purely from chemistry, although it can be affected by exogenous (events around me). I'll be taking pills for the rest of my life. Some people simply need the drugs to fix the chemical problem.
Everyone will experience exogenous depression at least once in their life, and a temporary run on anti-depressants could help them over the hump. It's just like taking pills to address common cold symptoms until you overcome the disease.
One thing to keep in mind is that people have vastly different reactions to certain anti-depressants. The first ones I started taking definitely helped with depression, but I wanted to sleep all day. You need to raise any issues, if you have any, with your doctor so that you can look at other options.
> These drugs are very powerful but have really bad side-effects for most people that take them.
The notion of pumping a chemical into your body via a permanent implant seems pretty extreme on the surface too, doesn't it? Sure, unless your body isn't producing the insulin it needs: https://www.hanselman.com/blog/hacking-diabetes. Your brain is [possibly] not producing the seratonin it needs. If you honestly can't find an anti-depressant that works for you, then you can always stop taking them (after speaking to your doctor). If any of your family members are on anti-depressants that are working well for them, mention that to your doctor.
Let me suggest an option that I haven't seen others bring up. One source of depression is that your expectations of what life and relationships should be like is all messed up. This comes from having a dysfunctional family growing up. There are many families that just weren't able to give emotional support in the way that the child needed. This leaves you with a twisted view of who you are and what you need in life.
As an aside, if you think talking about depression is hard, try getting people to admit that their parents were less than perfect. We were completely dependent on our parents growing up and we idolize them. People are imperfect. Parents are people. You can do the math from there, but it's still super hard to say out loud.
Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families (commonly called ACA or ACoA) is a twelve step support group that focuses on this. They started because children of alcoholics were having a number of problems, even though they never touched alcohol themselves. Addiction was an obvious way for parents to be emotionally unavailable, but there are many other dysfunctions that affect children in a similar way. Search for the ACA Laundry List to see the common characteristics. If you relate to even half that list, then ACA will probably help you.
ACA is a support group. You can learn a lot just from reading the books, but there is more value in regularly talking to people who have dealt with the same issues. There are local groups in most areas (search for ACA groups), as well and zoom/phone groups.
There are many different approaches to therapy. If you are in the ACA category, then looking for a therapist that understands childhood trauma and neglect can be much more effective then the common CBT approach. Asking around at a group meeting can be useful to get references. A good group plus good therapy is more powerful than either alone.
I dealt with depression my whole life. I had some improvement with St John's Wort (a herbal SRRI), Vitamin D3, NAC, sleep, and exercise as others have already written about. But I had to discover ACA to get at the core issues.
If there is interest, I can post my list of ACA related books.
As an aside, if you think talking about depression is hard, try getting people to admit that their parents were less than perfect. We were completely dependent on our parents growing up and we idolize them. People are imperfect. Parents are people. You can do the math from there, but it's still super hard to say out loud.
Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families (commonly called ACA or ACoA) is a twelve step support group that focuses on this. They started because children of alcoholics were having a number of problems, even though they never touched alcohol themselves. Addiction was an obvious way for parents to be emotionally unavailable, but there are many other dysfunctions that affect children in a similar way. Search for the ACA Laundry List to see the common characteristics. If you relate to even half that list, then ACA will probably help you.
ACA is a support group. You can learn a lot just from reading the books, but there is more value in regularly talking to people who have dealt with the same issues. There are local groups in most areas (search for ACA groups), as well and zoom/phone groups.
There are many different approaches to therapy. If you are in the ACA category, then looking for a therapist that understands childhood trauma and neglect can be much more effective then the common CBT approach. Asking around at a group meeting can be useful to get references. A good group plus good therapy is more powerful than either alone.
I dealt with depression my whole life. I had some improvement with St John's Wort (a herbal SRRI), Vitamin D3, NAC, sleep, and exercise as others have already written about. But I had to discover ACA to get at the core issues.
If there is interest, I can post my list of ACA related books.
> Let me suggest an option that I haven't seen others bring up. One source of depression is that your expectations of what life and relationships should be like is all messed up. This comes from having a dysfunctional family growing up. There are many families that just weren't able to give emotional support in the way that the child needed. This leaves you with a twisted view of who you are and what you need in life.
> As an aside, if you think talking about depression is hard, try getting people to admit that their parents were less than perfect. We
Wow this hit me hard. Not because of my own expectations, but because of the expectations my ex had during our relationship, and looking at her family and their relationships it makes much more sense. You hit the nail on the head. Thanks for posting this.
> As an aside, if you think talking about depression is hard, try getting people to admit that their parents were less than perfect. We
Wow this hit me hard. Not because of my own expectations, but because of the expectations my ex had during our relationship, and looking at her family and their relationships it makes much more sense. You hit the nail on the head. Thanks for posting this.
I took SSRIs, the side effects are manageable, and not too bad. Did not work for my depression but improved my anxiety a lot.
My take is taking or not taking SSRIs is depends on your situation. If you are in a position that YOU HAVE TO, then do it. Example of you have to: you have a toddler, not much money saved, partner is a stay home, you are risking losing your job and not getting another one.
If you have the privilege of sorting your issues out without SSRIs, go for it. Trying doing something exciting, something you love the most in life, for me its going to Japan, nothing else interest me right now.
The issue with SSRIs, is that they might not work. I won't avoid them to much as much as Benzos tho.
My take is taking or not taking SSRIs is depends on your situation. If you are in a position that YOU HAVE TO, then do it. Example of you have to: you have a toddler, not much money saved, partner is a stay home, you are risking losing your job and not getting another one.
If you have the privilege of sorting your issues out without SSRIs, go for it. Trying doing something exciting, something you love the most in life, for me its going to Japan, nothing else interest me right now.
The issue with SSRIs, is that they might not work. I won't avoid them to much as much as Benzos tho.
Right quick.
Have you tried the drugs? > Yes, Ask your doctor which doctor is best for you. I took them for about a year. It takes about a month to get it into your system, this is important.
Is my utter terror of these drugs warranted or should I just bite the bullet and try them? > Try them. Talk to your doctor. The first step for me which was the hardest, is be as open as possible to my therapist. It took me a year or so to get this going. I don't go to therapy anymore, but I am more open to those around me.
Also, if a therapist doesn't work for you, try another one. There is no reason why you need to stay with one, it is like dating, you need to find the right one.
Have you tried the drugs? > Yes, Ask your doctor which doctor is best for you. I took them for about a year. It takes about a month to get it into your system, this is important.
Is my utter terror of these drugs warranted or should I just bite the bullet and try them? > Try them. Talk to your doctor. The first step for me which was the hardest, is be as open as possible to my therapist. It took me a year or so to get this going. I don't go to therapy anymore, but I am more open to those around me.
Also, if a therapist doesn't work for you, try another one. There is no reason why you need to stay with one, it is like dating, you need to find the right one.
First thing to try is exercise in particular running. 4 -5 days a week. Cycling is also good
Another this is taking a big break and spending whole time in the nature, even just a week or two will help. For me even 1-2 days in the mountains hiking hard tends to fix a lot of issues. Nothing gives as much joy of life as sun rising in the mountains when it cold and you woke up 2 hours before and been hiking up.. those first few rays of warmth are special. I guess the advice is to have joy as the animal in us wants. I never feel depressed in the mountains angry, tired, cold miserable, paranoid etc but never depressed.
Good luck
Another this is taking a big break and spending whole time in the nature, even just a week or two will help. For me even 1-2 days in the mountains hiking hard tends to fix a lot of issues. Nothing gives as much joy of life as sun rising in the mountains when it cold and you woke up 2 hours before and been hiking up.. those first few rays of warmth are special. I guess the advice is to have joy as the animal in us wants. I never feel depressed in the mountains angry, tired, cold miserable, paranoid etc but never depressed.
Good luck
I do not have chronic depression (what you are describing) but I know many people who struggle with chronic anxiety or depression, so mental health is important to me.
I spoke with a colleague who admitted to dealing with anxiety for two decades, which I recognize is not depression but there is some overlap, and the best summary would echo jemfinch's comment if you can find it below. It's really good. In more detail, here's the jist of the conversation I had with my colleague:
It is lifelong, but not unmanageable. He tried to "solve" it for 15 yrs before he accepted that it would be lifelong. It is lifelong because anxiety (or discouragement in your case) is a combination of genetic and environmental factors, and your body is genetically programmed to overproduce the chemical in charge of misery. But you have a little control over environmental factors, so you can mitigate the extremely of it. The things in your environment that you have direct control over are your sleep patterns, eating habits, and exercise (with exceptions depending on certain disabilities, but you can try to work around those) These are the long term solutions but they don't remove the problem, they just reduce it. Sometimes you need a now solution when it still is too much. My colleague's now solutions are specific for anxiety, so I don't have a good answer for this, but two friends of mine who have chronic depression go on walks a lot when it's too much.
> For these reasons I am completely shit-scared of them. I see them as my option of last resort but increasingly I feel my options running out.
I couldn’t even take ibuprofen or daily vitamins at a certain point of being depressed out of fear it would make it worse. There were a few things that helped me calm the storm:
1. Exercise (30 mins elevated heart rate each day)
2. Talk about it (Friends, family, strangers on the internet)
3. Moderation (screen time, work, diet, etc)
4. Read about different philosophies (stoicism, buddhism, taoism, etc)
5. Sleep (Make it a top priority to get the right amount 8+ hrs)
I couldn’t even take ibuprofen or daily vitamins at a certain point of being depressed out of fear it would make it worse. There were a few things that helped me calm the storm:
1. Exercise (30 mins elevated heart rate each day)
2. Talk about it (Friends, family, strangers on the internet)
3. Moderation (screen time, work, diet, etc)
4. Read about different philosophies (stoicism, buddhism, taoism, etc)
5. Sleep (Make it a top priority to get the right amount 8+ hrs)
I made this comment 3 months ago that people seemed to find informative
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29776038
The thing you need to know most of all is that you may need to check yourself into a mental health unit if it gets worse, so try to get this emergency plan together with the help of others who are thinking more clearly.
I was locked up 3 times before I finally got better. There's no shame in doing what it takes to save yourself.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29776038
The thing you need to know most of all is that you may need to check yourself into a mental health unit if it gets worse, so try to get this emergency plan together with the help of others who are thinking more clearly.
I was locked up 3 times before I finally got better. There's no shame in doing what it takes to save yourself.
Hey! So first off I’m not a doctor and am talking from my own experience, and note SSRIs are incredibly independent and personal in how effective they are and what side effects you can get.
I’ve been on Sertraline for around two years. It was the first drug I was given - normally you try a couple till you find one that works - and it did it’s job. I started to come off them last Friday which involves a fairly lengthy multiple-month tapering process. Obviously slightly anxious that my anxieties will come back once I’m off them but they’ve gotten me out of whatever hole I was in and out the other side for the last year or so. Altogether I feel 10x better than at my lowest. I’ve also made lifestyle changes that helped - I cut drinking down to only holidays, I exercise frequently (just did a half hour swim and hour cycle), and I make sure to listen to my body more to try and avoid stress. However I doubt I could have made these changes without the jumpstart sertraline offered me.
Regarding side effects - I had nausea when I started and on any dose increase. I’m more prone to napping. And I put on maybe 30lbs, which I’m starting to shift now (I’m 6ft3 and male so this isnt as big a percentage change as it might sound). I’ve yet to have any side effects tapering down.
Whatever you choose, I wish you the best. Just don’t let stigma or your anxieties get in the way of getting better through meds.
And if you feel suicidal remember to call 911/999 straight away, or any other helpline, because that feeling will pass but the alternative won’t.
I’ve been on Sertraline for around two years. It was the first drug I was given - normally you try a couple till you find one that works - and it did it’s job. I started to come off them last Friday which involves a fairly lengthy multiple-month tapering process. Obviously slightly anxious that my anxieties will come back once I’m off them but they’ve gotten me out of whatever hole I was in and out the other side for the last year or so. Altogether I feel 10x better than at my lowest. I’ve also made lifestyle changes that helped - I cut drinking down to only holidays, I exercise frequently (just did a half hour swim and hour cycle), and I make sure to listen to my body more to try and avoid stress. However I doubt I could have made these changes without the jumpstart sertraline offered me.
Regarding side effects - I had nausea when I started and on any dose increase. I’m more prone to napping. And I put on maybe 30lbs, which I’m starting to shift now (I’m 6ft3 and male so this isnt as big a percentage change as it might sound). I’ve yet to have any side effects tapering down.
Whatever you choose, I wish you the best. Just don’t let stigma or your anxieties get in the way of getting better through meds.
And if you feel suicidal remember to call 911/999 straight away, or any other helpline, because that feeling will pass but the alternative won’t.
[deleted]
I sympathize with your situation, and can relate to some of the things you described over the last couple years due to a high stress work environment. One thing I realized was that a majority of the population are magnesium deficient and this can have a dramatic effect on some people. Initially I tried taking the RDA amount as a supplement and it did nothing. Eventually I said screw it and tried a much larger dose, 1 gram per day of magnesium chelate lysinate glycinate. I felt like a different person within 48 hours. Interestingly I found this pubmed article shortly therafter which described exactly my experience:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16542786/
The doses in the study are way above the standard RDA.
Other than that exercise makes a huge difference for me. I try to do the stair climber for 5 mins each morning and get my heart rate up, and then just walk outside or on the treadmill for 30 to 60 mins right after. If I go more than 2 days without doing that I generally start to feel like crap again. That has made a big difference. Feel free to pm me, happy to discuss, and kudos to you for speaking up about your experiences and asking for help.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16542786/
The doses in the study are way above the standard RDA.
Other than that exercise makes a huge difference for me. I try to do the stair climber for 5 mins each morning and get my heart rate up, and then just walk outside or on the treadmill for 30 to 60 mins right after. If I go more than 2 days without doing that I generally start to feel like crap again. That has made a big difference. Feel free to pm me, happy to discuss, and kudos to you for speaking up about your experiences and asking for help.
lol this thread is cancer.
a bunch of wiki-google-doctors that think they know more than the people who actually studied for at least a decade; get away while you can.
> These drugs are very powerful but have really bad side-effects for most people that take them.
This is bullshit. Antidepressants have mild side-effects for most people who take them. Some people have bad side effects and then they try a different one with a different side-effects profile and that usually helps. The only thing I have on Zoloft are annoying night sweats. Without it I was unable to function and had chronic anxiety and panic attacks.
> Is my utter terror of these drugs warranted or should I just bite the bullet and try them?
You said it yourself. You tried therapy, you tried all sorts of coping mechanisms and nothing helped. So yes, find a psychiatrist and talk to him about taking drugs.
There's absolutely nothing wrong about drugs. Some people need blood pressure medication their whole life; the brain is just another part of you that responds to medication.
It is a fact that the mechanism of almost all of these drugs are not completely understood, but fully understanding the mechanism of a drug is not a requirement for it to be therapeutic. Sometimes you just find that stuff works and then you spend a whole lot of time trying to understand why it does.
a bunch of wiki-google-doctors that think they know more than the people who actually studied for at least a decade; get away while you can.
> These drugs are very powerful but have really bad side-effects for most people that take them.
This is bullshit. Antidepressants have mild side-effects for most people who take them. Some people have bad side effects and then they try a different one with a different side-effects profile and that usually helps. The only thing I have on Zoloft are annoying night sweats. Without it I was unable to function and had chronic anxiety and panic attacks.
> Is my utter terror of these drugs warranted or should I just bite the bullet and try them?
You said it yourself. You tried therapy, you tried all sorts of coping mechanisms and nothing helped. So yes, find a psychiatrist and talk to him about taking drugs.
There's absolutely nothing wrong about drugs. Some people need blood pressure medication their whole life; the brain is just another part of you that responds to medication.
It is a fact that the mechanism of almost all of these drugs are not completely understood, but fully understanding the mechanism of a drug is not a requirement for it to be therapeutic. Sometimes you just find that stuff works and then you spend a whole lot of time trying to understand why it does.
This whole page reads like an argument by anti maskers on facebook. It's terrible
The number of people shouting "Doctors don't know what they're doing" is stupid
The number of people shouting "Doctors don't know what they're doing" is stupid
This will get buried but as far as ssris having "really bad side-effects for most people that take them", I think thats not true. I see lots of people on SSRIs, most deny having any side effects, some have minor side effects that tend to resolve with discontinuation, rarely do I see a "really bad" or persistent side effect.
It's like plane crashes, rare events get lots of focus and thus some people are terrified of flying, but really it's quite safe.
It's like plane crashes, rare events get lots of focus and thus some people are terrified of flying, but really it's quite safe.
I almost forgot: sleep.
For a long time I refused to think this mattered, because when one is chronically sleep-deprived, the baseline of feeling like pure crap will start to feel normal.
For a long time I refused to think this mattered, because when one is chronically sleep-deprived, the baseline of feeling like pure crap will start to feel normal.
Hey there I've had the same problem for years in my 30's. After having tried everything from sports, doctors, to psychiatrists and their terrible drugs, I decided to research the sh*t out of it, which is what I do for everything I don't understand. What I have found is that there are some of us who lack certain non-essential amino acids and can't efficiently build them from food. L-Tyrosine is one of these. It's a precursor to neurotransmitters (particularly dopamine and norepinephrine). The first time I took 2.5g of Tyrosine in the morning, this 'pit in the stomach', this terrible anxiety I woke up with every day was gone within 5 minutes. I started taking Tyrosine every day, and I haven't had an anxiety/depression ever since. I found out much later that some depression books (The Mood Cure, Tyrosine for Depression) were already talking about this long ago. Wish I had found out before even going to the doctor!
I also discovered that Rhodiola is extremely effective against psychosis and paranoia, and it saved me more than once from this funk in which you see everything negatively, or where everything feels empty. I take Rhodiola when I know I'm not thinking straight, am paranoid, or when everything around me becomes anxiety-inducing. It works.
The last tool I discovered is St. John Wort. Billed as a natural anti-depressant, I found that it does tend to put me in a good mood when nothing else does. It takes a few hours to take effect, and weeks to get the full benefits, but it works and I always have some in my pharmacy.
Without these 3 tools I'm not sure I'd still be here to write code every day. PM me if you want to chat.
I also discovered that Rhodiola is extremely effective against psychosis and paranoia, and it saved me more than once from this funk in which you see everything negatively, or where everything feels empty. I take Rhodiola when I know I'm not thinking straight, am paranoid, or when everything around me becomes anxiety-inducing. It works.
The last tool I discovered is St. John Wort. Billed as a natural anti-depressant, I found that it does tend to put me in a good mood when nothing else does. It takes a few hours to take effect, and weeks to get the full benefits, but it works and I always have some in my pharmacy.
Without these 3 tools I'm not sure I'd still be here to write code every day. PM me if you want to chat.
Some great advice I was given, a few years ago:
Imagine you have a heart condition. It is treatable with some tried and tested keyhole surgery, but there’s another problem.
You were bitten by an insect and the bite became infected. You can’t go into surgery with a fever, but if you take some antibiotics then the infection will pass and you can get back on track for your surgery. The bite hurts a lot. An antihistamine cream will help.
One body. Three different problems with it, all linked together. The way your mind’a chemistry works, the way you think, and how you got there are three very similar things.
SSRIs are there to help bring you stability. They don’t make life magically better. That requires a lot of hard work on your mindset. Talking therapy (CBT) is the best place to start. It’s custom coaching to help you look to the future and move forward in life with tools to hold back the demons of anxiety and rumination.
When you have those two things under your belt — the bite stops hurting and the infection clears up — then you can turn around and look back on your past, with Analysis. Finding a good psychoanalyst is time consuming and expensive and not always even a necessary or desirable step. You can live with a heart condition if you accept that you are willing to drop your plans to climb Everest.
That’s the outline. Don’t be scared. Be brave and talk to a doctor*. They will help you with all of these steps.
*…or two, or more if you want to five-space-shuttle-computer-votes your medical care! I once took three eye tests in the same day because I was convinced opticians were quacks!
Imagine you have a heart condition. It is treatable with some tried and tested keyhole surgery, but there’s another problem.
You were bitten by an insect and the bite became infected. You can’t go into surgery with a fever, but if you take some antibiotics then the infection will pass and you can get back on track for your surgery. The bite hurts a lot. An antihistamine cream will help.
One body. Three different problems with it, all linked together. The way your mind’a chemistry works, the way you think, and how you got there are three very similar things.
SSRIs are there to help bring you stability. They don’t make life magically better. That requires a lot of hard work on your mindset. Talking therapy (CBT) is the best place to start. It’s custom coaching to help you look to the future and move forward in life with tools to hold back the demons of anxiety and rumination.
When you have those two things under your belt — the bite stops hurting and the infection clears up — then you can turn around and look back on your past, with Analysis. Finding a good psychoanalyst is time consuming and expensive and not always even a necessary or desirable step. You can live with a heart condition if you accept that you are willing to drop your plans to climb Everest.
That’s the outline. Don’t be scared. Be brave and talk to a doctor*. They will help you with all of these steps.
*…or two, or more if you want to five-space-shuttle-computer-votes your medical care! I once took three eye tests in the same day because I was convinced opticians were quacks!
I have a friend who's had lifelong depression and had very good results from CBD after a couple of weeks of use. It was someone who hates meds and who I've been trying to get to take antidepressants for decades so it was quite a surprise to see them completely transformed by it.
Personally I've been depressed for as long as I remember and I've had incredible results from (medical) Ketamine. It was pretty much an overnight cure that lasted about 6 months. On the other hand CBD doesn't seem to be doing anything for me.
The thing to understand with heavy depression, and anti-depressants if you haven't taken them before, is that when your depression is chemically treated, it's like a veil is lifted from your mind. You suddenly are lucid, everything is no longer miserable and you didn't realize how truly miserable it was before. I would highly recommend you at least try something if it's been going on for as long as you remember and nothing else works. It's normal to be scared but give yourself a chance. It is transformative in ways you can't imagine.
If you seek medical advice, as would be wise, don't trust a single doctor, seek multiple opinions and take them with a large grain of salt, not as absolutes.
Personally I've been depressed for as long as I remember and I've had incredible results from (medical) Ketamine. It was pretty much an overnight cure that lasted about 6 months. On the other hand CBD doesn't seem to be doing anything for me.
The thing to understand with heavy depression, and anti-depressants if you haven't taken them before, is that when your depression is chemically treated, it's like a veil is lifted from your mind. You suddenly are lucid, everything is no longer miserable and you didn't realize how truly miserable it was before. I would highly recommend you at least try something if it's been going on for as long as you remember and nothing else works. It's normal to be scared but give yourself a chance. It is transformative in ways you can't imagine.
If you seek medical advice, as would be wise, don't trust a single doctor, seek multiple opinions and take them with a large grain of salt, not as absolutes.
[deleted]
Hey jpgvm, I've had depression ever since I hit puberty; and before, during, and after that: social anxiety. I've avoided anti-depressants for the first ~30+ years of my life. Eventually I decided I needed to try something, but wasn't ready for SSRI's and the bimodal data behind it.
So about a year ago I decided to try St. John's Wort, which you can purchase without a prescription (in the USA). It can help manage mild-moderate depression per the literature, and per my experience. It took six weeks before I felt a difference, and since then the part of me that wants to lay in bed and shut out the world, or distract myself through hours of living through other people's lives (reddit, HN, twitch, etc) has 'grown up'. I've only had couple days over the last year where the old me threw its weight onto my back, but the next day I was back to normal.
St. John's Wort doesn't come without caveats. You need take your dosage 3 times a day (with each meal). If you don't, you'll likely wont be able to drink alcohol for awhile (stomachaches), and the wort may be less effective. It also interacts negatively with a lot of other drugs (check online).
I take 300mg extract (0.3% Hypericins) 3 times a day.
So about a year ago I decided to try St. John's Wort, which you can purchase without a prescription (in the USA). It can help manage mild-moderate depression per the literature, and per my experience. It took six weeks before I felt a difference, and since then the part of me that wants to lay in bed and shut out the world, or distract myself through hours of living through other people's lives (reddit, HN, twitch, etc) has 'grown up'. I've only had couple days over the last year where the old me threw its weight onto my back, but the next day I was back to normal.
St. John's Wort doesn't come without caveats. You need take your dosage 3 times a day (with each meal). If you don't, you'll likely wont be able to drink alcohol for awhile (stomachaches), and the wort may be less effective. It also interacts negatively with a lot of other drugs (check online).
I take 300mg extract (0.3% Hypericins) 3 times a day.
Of course ask for professional advice first. But in my personal experience one SSRI helped me through a tough part of puberty a bit, but also made me feel like I wasn't really living anymore; like I was in a bubble with all of the pain but also the real joy splatting up against it and dripping down. In my more recent bout of depression after trying numerous therapies I tried several SSRIs (along with therapy) but ended up worse off. Most side effects went away after a month or so, but years later I'm still not sleeping like I used to before taking them, but I've gotten used to that; it's not that bad. I feel like Americans think of them like some kind of miracle drug/candy which I'm pretty sure it isn't for most. From what I've read so far they haven't been able to scientifically prove effectiveness above placebo level. Still, if you're out of other options and with a therapist you feel good about to guide you then I'd give it a go. One way or another I wish you all the best! Remember we're all just pretending to know what we're doing while we're really just winging it and that's fine
I strongly recommend the book Feeling Good by David Burns. I even recommend it to people who are not depressed.
https://www.amazon.com/Feeling-Good-New-Mood-Therapy/dp/0380...
It describes how depression is often caused by cognitive distortions that somehow cause us to believe that our lives aren't worth living. As a simple example, a depressed person might call a friend, but the friend doesn't return the call immediately, and so the depression patient concludes that the friend doesn't actually care. This is a pure hallucination caused by depression; there are 1000s of reasons why the friend might not have responded immediately. Furthermore, even in the unlikely event that the negative conclusion was true, and the friend doesn't care about the patient, that doesn't mean very much. Maybe the friend is actually pretentious, or is trying to climb the social ladder, or is a political zealot who can't tolerate people with different opinions - all reasons why the patient is better off looking for new friends anyway.
https://www.amazon.com/Feeling-Good-New-Mood-Therapy/dp/0380...
It describes how depression is often caused by cognitive distortions that somehow cause us to believe that our lives aren't worth living. As a simple example, a depressed person might call a friend, but the friend doesn't return the call immediately, and so the depression patient concludes that the friend doesn't actually care. This is a pure hallucination caused by depression; there are 1000s of reasons why the friend might not have responded immediately. Furthermore, even in the unlikely event that the negative conclusion was true, and the friend doesn't care about the patient, that doesn't mean very much. Maybe the friend is actually pretentious, or is trying to climb the social ladder, or is a political zealot who can't tolerate people with different opinions - all reasons why the patient is better off looking for new friends anyway.
I'm sorry this whole thread has devolved into such a shit show, but I'll give you my honest, pro anti-depressant response.
Firstly, don't feel stigmatised about taking medication. If you have an illness, then you shouldn't feel any worse about taking medication for it than you do for taking any other medication. Mental health is physical health
Most importantly, talk to an actual doctor. Ignore everyone who's shouting about doctors don't know anything, they do, and they know more than your average internet user.
Doctors would generally start you on a low dosage of an SSRI that doesn't have many side effects, like citalopram and increase the dosage over the course of weeks. If you have many side effects, it's up for you and the doctor to decide whether a different SSRI would work better for you.
The most important aspect of antidepressants for me, was that it helped calm me down and clear my mind. I wasn't ever able to actually focus on putting my therapy into practice because my mind was always going a mile a minute. On the antidepressants I felt much calmer and I could actually focus on improving my long term mental health.
Firstly, don't feel stigmatised about taking medication. If you have an illness, then you shouldn't feel any worse about taking medication for it than you do for taking any other medication. Mental health is physical health
Most importantly, talk to an actual doctor. Ignore everyone who's shouting about doctors don't know anything, they do, and they know more than your average internet user.
Doctors would generally start you on a low dosage of an SSRI that doesn't have many side effects, like citalopram and increase the dosage over the course of weeks. If you have many side effects, it's up for you and the doctor to decide whether a different SSRI would work better for you.
The most important aspect of antidepressants for me, was that it helped calm me down and clear my mind. I wasn't ever able to actually focus on putting my therapy into practice because my mind was always going a mile a minute. On the antidepressants I felt much calmer and I could actually focus on improving my long term mental health.
Former counselor here: I think it's important to differentiate between short term anti-depressant use and long term use. Short term use can be effective for motivating you to do all the non-medication things that have evidence of working (particularly together).
Long term use is typically associated with the worst side effects - both the well known things as well as how some may (edit: at least partially) block one's ability to develop and change/grow (1). Further, long term use is not associated with any meaningful enhancement of quality of life (2) and can often be a crutch - because while it alters mood it does nothing about the underlying cognitive patterns which are so ruinous for one's social life.
(1) Through antagonism of 5-HT2AR - see the "cognitive flexibility" section of https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.6612... - and more generally through inhibiting natural regenerative processes https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Chemical-Cure-Psychiatric-Treatm...
(2) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01650... and https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1399-5618....
Long term use is typically associated with the worst side effects - both the well known things as well as how some may (edit: at least partially) block one's ability to develop and change/grow (1). Further, long term use is not associated with any meaningful enhancement of quality of life (2) and can often be a crutch - because while it alters mood it does nothing about the underlying cognitive patterns which are so ruinous for one's social life.
(1) Through antagonism of 5-HT2AR - see the "cognitive flexibility" section of https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.6612... - and more generally through inhibiting natural regenerative processes https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Chemical-Cure-Psychiatric-Treatm...
(2) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01650... and https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1399-5618....
Wellbutrin doesn't work for everyone but its been mild / perfect for my depression, which I've struggled with my whole life too. Going to the gym, hiking and getting amped up on new dumb projects helps too but are a little more manic / unpredictable.
Anyway taking meds feels lame but my marriage / kid / career are more important than whatever that feeling is probably.
Right on for asking HN and getting so many response.
Anyway taking meds feels lame but my marriage / kid / career are more important than whatever that feeling is probably.
Right on for asking HN and getting so many response.
My friend is a poor methylator [0], which means she can't turn the provitamin food fortification folic acid into Vitamin B-9. The prescription drug Deplin is a form of Vitamin B-9 that is approved as an add-on therapy, for when 'antidepressants don't work'. AFAIK, people who are poor methylators say they do better when they avoid folic acid.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30334122
I have commented before about my efforts to help my friend get appropriate treatment. My latest filing, a petition for rehearing, has been distributed to the Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States [1]. Hopefully they'll talk about it at their conference on April 14 2022.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30884187
Sometimes people benefit from the SSRIs' allepregnanolone boost [2].
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30550919
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30334122
I have commented before about my efforts to help my friend get appropriate treatment. My latest filing, a petition for rehearing, has been distributed to the Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States [1]. Hopefully they'll talk about it at their conference on April 14 2022.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30884187
Sometimes people benefit from the SSRIs' allepregnanolone boost [2].
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30550919
This is just my story, not a medical advice. I have been talking to a therapist weekly for a couple of years. Some time ago he suggested I try talking to a psychiatrist and maybe try some SSRIs. I did just that and throughout 2021 I was on 10mg of Lexapro daily. It helped my mood tremendously. It was even better than I imagined.
As for the side effects, it wasn't too bad. Lower sex drive for sure, but not non-existent. Slight paranoia for a day or two in the first week, but not after. Towards the end of the year I was getting some fatigue during the day, but that might have been long covid as well.
After a year of taking them my doctor decided to try tapering them off over a month period. I did that and since January 2022 I've been feeling very well, libido is back. Probably no side effects of withdrawal, or slight enough to be indistinguishable from daily life. Now it's been ~3 months and I'm still feeling good, no relapse at all.
All in all - 9/10, would recommend to a friend. Although I'm just one person and surely other people have some horror stories to share...
As for the side effects, it wasn't too bad. Lower sex drive for sure, but not non-existent. Slight paranoia for a day or two in the first week, but not after. Towards the end of the year I was getting some fatigue during the day, but that might have been long covid as well.
After a year of taking them my doctor decided to try tapering them off over a month period. I did that and since January 2022 I've been feeling very well, libido is back. Probably no side effects of withdrawal, or slight enough to be indistinguishable from daily life. Now it's been ~3 months and I'm still feeling good, no relapse at all.
All in all - 9/10, would recommend to a friend. Although I'm just one person and surely other people have some horror stories to share...
What’s mildly infuriating about these threads are people’s concepts on “what you should do if you have depression”, and the things they list are like, eat right, get enough sleep, take vitamin D, exercise… like, no shit! If you are truly depressed, you often have to do those things just to meet a baseline. You don’t have the luxury of _not_ doing at least some degree of self-care. No overcaffeinating, undersleeping, going on a substance binge, whatever. Those suggestions are to get to an even ‘okay, my life still sucks, but I can get out of bed after an hour’ baseline.
My experience as somebody with Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder and clinical depression is that SSRIs are awesome. Do they have side effects? Yup. Do most either not get them or get mild side effects that often go away? Yup. For me, I can’t even function as a result of my mental illness without medication.
I’ve also been in therapy for many years, off and on, and therapy is no cure all. I do recommend it, and medications often help when first starting therapy (studies have shown therapy efficacy increases with medicated participants).
My experience as somebody with Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder and clinical depression is that SSRIs are awesome. Do they have side effects? Yup. Do most either not get them or get mild side effects that often go away? Yup. For me, I can’t even function as a result of my mental illness without medication.
I’ve also been in therapy for many years, off and on, and therapy is no cure all. I do recommend it, and medications often help when first starting therapy (studies have shown therapy efficacy increases with medicated participants).
I agree with the concept of having to do the basics in order to reach a "baseline" that others take for granted.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
1. Have an exit plan
SSRI can be life changing for some people, in a very positive way. But definitely not for everyone or at the first time. Have a plan with your doc on what to do if things get worse, and if needed on how to stop taking the meds in a safe way.
2. Schedule a follow up
Maybe 1 month after you start taking the medication schedule a follow up to review the meds. You may need to change a couple of times before you have the right ones. Have a doctor who understand and agrees with this plan. Then schedule a follow up something like 6 months later and so on regularly maybe yearly if everything goes well. Don't see it as a one off thing. Psychiatric meds are often hit and miss.
3. Don't rely solely on meds
There are many interventions that help with depression, including psychotherapy, mindfulness, and lifestyle changes. All this should be considered for the success of the therapy. Meds at their best will help you with the change.
Also if you feel a tight stomach, after ruling out organic illness, you may consider massage therapy to help you with anxiety. Learning massage therapy actually helped me a lot.
SSRI can be life changing for some people, in a very positive way. But definitely not for everyone or at the first time. Have a plan with your doc on what to do if things get worse, and if needed on how to stop taking the meds in a safe way.
2. Schedule a follow up
Maybe 1 month after you start taking the medication schedule a follow up to review the meds. You may need to change a couple of times before you have the right ones. Have a doctor who understand and agrees with this plan. Then schedule a follow up something like 6 months later and so on regularly maybe yearly if everything goes well. Don't see it as a one off thing. Psychiatric meds are often hit and miss.
3. Don't rely solely on meds
There are many interventions that help with depression, including psychotherapy, mindfulness, and lifestyle changes. All this should be considered for the success of the therapy. Meds at their best will help you with the change.
Also if you feel a tight stomach, after ruling out organic illness, you may consider massage therapy to help you with anxiety. Learning massage therapy actually helped me a lot.
Based on my exp: do get rid of depression, you need to get rid of the underlying reasons. But - you just cannot think straight while being depressed. So you most times cannot find out what the issue is or how to conquer it. ADs (imho) help you open your eyes for the underlying issues AND to the fact that these CAN (most of times) be remedied.
I have had diagnosed depression twice, took ADs both times. But i see that it will come back, as there is an issue (others i removed/remedied) in my life which is out of my control completely, but which will be MOSTLY solved in abt 6y or so. So ive made a decision that i suffer this, take note when i get depressed, talk to my doc and get ADs. Disclaimer: im from EU, so it is really cheap for me to get ADs AND therapy (tho i might have to wait some for the therapy). Oh, and time and time again, vit D and C have helped to raise the gray curtain too, when the depression hits at the end of winter/beg of spring (living in N hemisphere, fairly dark and freezing for half a year)
I have had diagnosed depression twice, took ADs both times. But i see that it will come back, as there is an issue (others i removed/remedied) in my life which is out of my control completely, but which will be MOSTLY solved in abt 6y or so. So ive made a decision that i suffer this, take note when i get depressed, talk to my doc and get ADs. Disclaimer: im from EU, so it is really cheap for me to get ADs AND therapy (tho i might have to wait some for the therapy). Oh, and time and time again, vit D and C have helped to raise the gray curtain too, when the depression hits at the end of winter/beg of spring (living in N hemisphere, fairly dark and freezing for half a year)
> SSRIs and other anti-depressants. These drugs are very powerful but have really bad side-effects for most people that take them.
Obviously not a majority of people. Otherwise they’d be illegal by now.
That said, you are right to be cautious. There are definitely people who have severe blowback from these drugs. But given the amount of misery you are in it might be worth reevaluating your reluctance.
Obviously not a majority of people. Otherwise they’d be illegal by now.
That said, you are right to be cautious. There are definitely people who have severe blowback from these drugs. But given the amount of misery you are in it might be worth reevaluating your reluctance.
Most cases of depression are not single isolated episodes but part of a recurring pattern. Sometimes even the intervals between episodes are characterized by mildly depressed mood, mild anhedonia etc., the so-called dysthymia.
I point out the relapsing and remitting behaviour of mood disorders because it shines a light on other ways of managing it. The effect size of SSRI’s is not all that large to be honest. But characterizing the risk of adverse effects as terrorizing is probably over-pessimistic and unwarranted. That said, I’ve taken meds - tricyclics, traditional SSRI’s, atypicals and I can’t say that any were terribly effective. Working with a skilled and trusted therapist has been practically life-saving though. It took a long time to find the right person. Before my current therapist I saw someone for 2-3 sessions and she seemed like she had never even had any experience in clinical interviewing let alone any insight into the sort of existential troubles that I was facing. I am an MD but I try to keep that out of the fray because it can skew the therapeutic relationship in odd ways. I don’t know. Just was “off.” But current therapist is awesome.
I also have two checklists that I review weekly. The first is titled “What’s going on?” It just lists some of my early warning signs. If those start pointing in the wrong direction I look at the second list which is about 60 things I know that have helped me in the past. Exercise or just being outdoors is near the top.
The expectation/anticipation of adverse medication effects is known to increase the risk thereof. The nocebo effect. If you are that agitated about the risk my advice is to work really hard on finding a compatible therapist.
I don’t think you can brute force your way out of depression but you yourself and especially with a therapist can begin to identify patterns of thought and behaviour that can keep you stuck. It’s just a nudge.
I point out the relapsing and remitting behaviour of mood disorders because it shines a light on other ways of managing it. The effect size of SSRI’s is not all that large to be honest. But characterizing the risk of adverse effects as terrorizing is probably over-pessimistic and unwarranted. That said, I’ve taken meds - tricyclics, traditional SSRI’s, atypicals and I can’t say that any were terribly effective. Working with a skilled and trusted therapist has been practically life-saving though. It took a long time to find the right person. Before my current therapist I saw someone for 2-3 sessions and she seemed like she had never even had any experience in clinical interviewing let alone any insight into the sort of existential troubles that I was facing. I am an MD but I try to keep that out of the fray because it can skew the therapeutic relationship in odd ways. I don’t know. Just was “off.” But current therapist is awesome.
I also have two checklists that I review weekly. The first is titled “What’s going on?” It just lists some of my early warning signs. If those start pointing in the wrong direction I look at the second list which is about 60 things I know that have helped me in the past. Exercise or just being outdoors is near the top.
The expectation/anticipation of adverse medication effects is known to increase the risk thereof. The nocebo effect. If you are that agitated about the risk my advice is to work really hard on finding a compatible therapist.
I don’t think you can brute force your way out of depression but you yourself and especially with a therapist can begin to identify patterns of thought and behaviour that can keep you stuck. It’s just a nudge.
Anecdata but I have zero side effects after the initial two week adjustment time on a SSRI and feel a ton better. I would give it a try - I was skeptical for most of my life until I hit a low point and just felt like I couldn’t go on without some help. Probably a majority of people didn’t make it past the adjustment period and post negative reviews based on that
There is a somatic component. Nature, forming new relationships (love) and social contact like dance can work wonders in conjunction with professional help. Breaking anhedonia and rumination was key. No chemical assistance needed unless that includes food as medicine. The DSM is not the bible and there are many ways to heal. Peace be with you.
>So HN, what has your experience been with depression?
I am sharing my own experience, the topic being a taboo does not help people who suffer.
I was also shit scared of medication, and too apprehensive to go to a medical professional... until it was too late and it all collapsed.
I visited 4 different emergency psychiatrists. Only one of them managed to identify the condition and treat me accordingly. His goal: keeping me alive for 18 months. It worked. I did need strong medication, and it had to be carefully adjusted several times. This kicked me out of depression in about six to eight months, but did not solve underlying issues. Once the emergency psychiatrist rated that I was in a stable route for recovery, I switched to a regular psychiatrist that basically checks my medication once every two months.
In parallel, I started weekly therapy with a psychologist. Also I tried two doctors and ended up with the second one. This one is needed to solve underlying issues. It took long time to get it really working, but it ended up great. It's been a year and I am still attending weekly therapy.
Its been 18 months since I started treatment. I am better now than I've been the last 10 years, but change did not come overnight, and I am still working on it with full energy. I wouldn't have made it so well without any off:
a) sport & good food & sleep. b) amazing doctors. c) medication.
> Have you tried the drugs?
Yes, quite a few actually.
> What worked or didn't?
What worked: medication + full trust in the doctor + lots of patience.
What it did not work: expecting to be back to "normal" fast.
> Have you been able to triumph without chemical assistance and what did that look like?
I really doubt I would have triumphed without chemical assistance.
> Is my utter terror of these drugs warranted or should I just bite the bullet and try them?
Terror is due to depression being taboo, and fear of the unknown. Medication is not to be underestimated. It has side effects, for me it was mostly feeling even less energy than normal. So I would not take them unless you have under close surveillance and you trust fully your doctor. On the other hand, they are very very effective. I am weaning-off medication slowly and I am experiencing no side effects.
I am sharing my own experience, the topic being a taboo does not help people who suffer.
I was also shit scared of medication, and too apprehensive to go to a medical professional... until it was too late and it all collapsed.
I visited 4 different emergency psychiatrists. Only one of them managed to identify the condition and treat me accordingly. His goal: keeping me alive for 18 months. It worked. I did need strong medication, and it had to be carefully adjusted several times. This kicked me out of depression in about six to eight months, but did not solve underlying issues. Once the emergency psychiatrist rated that I was in a stable route for recovery, I switched to a regular psychiatrist that basically checks my medication once every two months.
In parallel, I started weekly therapy with a psychologist. Also I tried two doctors and ended up with the second one. This one is needed to solve underlying issues. It took long time to get it really working, but it ended up great. It's been a year and I am still attending weekly therapy.
Its been 18 months since I started treatment. I am better now than I've been the last 10 years, but change did not come overnight, and I am still working on it with full energy. I wouldn't have made it so well without any off:
a) sport & good food & sleep. b) amazing doctors. c) medication.
> Have you tried the drugs?
Yes, quite a few actually.
> What worked or didn't?
What worked: medication + full trust in the doctor + lots of patience.
What it did not work: expecting to be back to "normal" fast.
> Have you been able to triumph without chemical assistance and what did that look like?
I really doubt I would have triumphed without chemical assistance.
> Is my utter terror of these drugs warranted or should I just bite the bullet and try them?
Terror is due to depression being taboo, and fear of the unknown. Medication is not to be underestimated. It has side effects, for me it was mostly feeling even less energy than normal. So I would not take them unless you have under close surveillance and you trust fully your doctor. On the other hand, they are very very effective. I am weaning-off medication slowly and I am experiencing no side effects.
Do you do any drugs? How much alcohol do you drink? How much caffeine? How much exercise do you get? How much sun exposure do you get? How much sleep do you get per night? What kind of food are you eating? Do you have a significant other? A loving family? Some kind of support network?
These are all things I would ask myself, and try to tweak them in a better direction. This can be really hard though if you're already dealing with excessive procrastination. Maybe it won't work, but at least your body will be healthier for the effort.
You're right that antidepressants can be serious business, but you could say that about a lot of drugs. Their use is when the good effects outweigh the bad effects. My advice is to optimize the above things, and also find a trusted doctor and at least give them a braindump and let them practice their expertise upon you. You don't need to take a prescription if you don't want to.
These are all things I would ask myself, and try to tweak them in a better direction. This can be really hard though if you're already dealing with excessive procrastination. Maybe it won't work, but at least your body will be healthier for the effort.
You're right that antidepressants can be serious business, but you could say that about a lot of drugs. Their use is when the good effects outweigh the bad effects. My advice is to optimize the above things, and also find a trusted doctor and at least give them a braindump and let them practice their expertise upon you. You don't need to take a prescription if you don't want to.
Here is a little meditation I wrote a while ago on my depression and my medication that still rings true for me.
https://dhubris.livejournal.com/14447.html
I don't know about your part of the world, but in Australia you may find a good GP (doctor who is a general practitioner) who can handle the medication process with you, or see a psychiatrist who usually has more expertise in this area.
Either way it can be a bit of a trial and error process until you find what works for you (which may be different than what works for me or others). Usually four to six weeks before medication reaches full effectiveness. If the medical professional writes you out a prescription without organising a follow up to see how well it is working, tear up the script and find another doc. Don't stop a medication cold turkey. Ramp down dosage under medical guidance.
Good luck!
https://dhubris.livejournal.com/14447.html
I don't know about your part of the world, but in Australia you may find a good GP (doctor who is a general practitioner) who can handle the medication process with you, or see a psychiatrist who usually has more expertise in this area.
Either way it can be a bit of a trial and error process until you find what works for you (which may be different than what works for me or others). Usually four to six weeks before medication reaches full effectiveness. If the medical professional writes you out a prescription without organising a follow up to see how well it is working, tear up the script and find another doc. Don't stop a medication cold turkey. Ramp down dosage under medical guidance.
Good luck!
If you haven't tried cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) make sure to check it out given your unfounded as far as I can tell terror of anti-depressants. Cognitive therapy (long before the "behavioral" bit was added) was very useful for me, and in 20/20 hindsight made further talking therapy useless.
I'm not a standard case, have a inherited combined anxiety and depression problem that behaves somewhat like bipolar disorder without ever going manic (see below for exception), it's "refractory" but I've found the two last out of three generations of anti-depressants to be very helpful, although far from cures.
I have no idea whatsoever what convinced you "SSRIs and other anti-depressants" "have really bad side-effects for most people that take them." That was certainly true for the first generation MAO inhibitors and I knew someone on one who had the usual food problem, but is much less true for the second generation of tricylics, and not at all true for the third which started with the SSRI PROZAC/fluoxetine.
If after all you've gone through you're still literally willing to live a miserable life without at least trying a third generation anti-depressant I don't see what we can say that will convince you. You certainly might have a bad reaction to one or more members of this class of drugs as I and a friend have had (PAXIL/paroxetine made me hypomanic, a friend had suicidal ideation which she simply recognized and fixed by stopping taking the drug), and perhaps as others note you may have to try several to see if one works.
Note one of the biggest mistakes made in prescribing them is not moving to a high enough dose quickly enough if a smaller one is tolerated but doesn't have much of an effect. Everything else you need to know about them is well documented, although you'll have to find better sources than whatever has convinced you these drugs are simply too dangerous to even try.
I'm not a standard case, have a inherited combined anxiety and depression problem that behaves somewhat like bipolar disorder without ever going manic (see below for exception), it's "refractory" but I've found the two last out of three generations of anti-depressants to be very helpful, although far from cures.
I have no idea whatsoever what convinced you "SSRIs and other anti-depressants" "have really bad side-effects for most people that take them." That was certainly true for the first generation MAO inhibitors and I knew someone on one who had the usual food problem, but is much less true for the second generation of tricylics, and not at all true for the third which started with the SSRI PROZAC/fluoxetine.
If after all you've gone through you're still literally willing to live a miserable life without at least trying a third generation anti-depressant I don't see what we can say that will convince you. You certainly might have a bad reaction to one or more members of this class of drugs as I and a friend have had (PAXIL/paroxetine made me hypomanic, a friend had suicidal ideation which she simply recognized and fixed by stopping taking the drug), and perhaps as others note you may have to try several to see if one works.
Note one of the biggest mistakes made in prescribing them is not moving to a high enough dose quickly enough if a smaller one is tolerated but doesn't have much of an effect. Everything else you need to know about them is well documented, although you'll have to find better sources than whatever has convinced you these drugs are simply too dangerous to even try.
Ample sunlight (without sunscreens) + Vitamin D with K2 + Forcing yourself to talk to people in general (like to a cashier at a supermarket) - use cash, don't order online, go out and talk to people.
Delete social media.
Grayscale your phone. No phone usage in mornings and evenings.
Practice "Anulom-Vilom Pranayam" for about 30 minutes in the morning, empty stomach.
Go out in the nature, daily.
Notice and change your self-talk.
Try the Sedona Method: https://www.ecosia.org/search?q=what%20is%20sedona%20method
Try this for 30 days. Research on this topic a lot. A doctor is not going to help you much. Only you can do what it takes. People can downvote me here, I've no issues.
Check some Huberman's videos, one is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu1FMCxoEFc
Delete social media.
Grayscale your phone. No phone usage in mornings and evenings.
Practice "Anulom-Vilom Pranayam" for about 30 minutes in the morning, empty stomach.
Go out in the nature, daily.
Notice and change your self-talk.
Try the Sedona Method: https://www.ecosia.org/search?q=what%20is%20sedona%20method
Try this for 30 days. Research on this topic a lot. A doctor is not going to help you much. Only you can do what it takes. People can downvote me here, I've no issues.
Check some Huberman's videos, one is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu1FMCxoEFc
For your sleep issues you can try seeing a sleep doctor and maybe getting a sleep study done to diagnose sleep problems and get assistance.
Look up things around the term “sleep hygiene” if you aren’t familiar with it. But if there is something physical going on then you’ll need more assistance.
If you’re going to take medications, probably work with a psychologist in conjunction with the psychiatrist to have the greatest effect. You can ask one to refer some names for the other. Talk with a few different ones for the first interview to find one that hopefully fits you better. Some doctors are better for some patients than others so find one that is a good match for you.
It’s a journey and takes exploration, iteration, and practice to make incremental improvements.
I like the Rick Hansen Foundations of Well-Being program. But it seems each person’s depression is different and what is helpful is also different.
Look up things around the term “sleep hygiene” if you aren’t familiar with it. But if there is something physical going on then you’ll need more assistance.
If you’re going to take medications, probably work with a psychologist in conjunction with the psychiatrist to have the greatest effect. You can ask one to refer some names for the other. Talk with a few different ones for the first interview to find one that hopefully fits you better. Some doctors are better for some patients than others so find one that is a good match for you.
It’s a journey and takes exploration, iteration, and practice to make incremental improvements.
I like the Rick Hansen Foundations of Well-Being program. But it seems each person’s depression is different and what is helpful is also different.
My non-expert impression is that antidepressant drugs, therapy, and exercise are each about equally effective against depression but whether they work or not varies from one person to the next. So, it's worth trying therapy and exercise first if you're averse to medication. But if the other two aren't working it's worth trying medication as well. Side effects vary wildly depending on the drug and the dosage and the person taking them. Many have mild side effects, or moderate side effects that are temporary until you adjust to them. (Apparently a large portion of the serotonin in the human body exists in the digestive tract. So, SSRIs can cause nausea if you're not used to them because they're affecting the digestive tract directly, which is normal and goes away.)
As usual, consult a real doctor about these questions.
As usual, consult a real doctor about these questions.
I've been on an off anti-depressants for about 10 years, and every time I go off it's pretty difficult.
So for me, it's a combination of things that work, the bare minimum being a low-dose of an anti-depressant. At my worst states, this is usually enough to lift me up to take care of my other basic needs like exercising, eating right, sleep, etc.
Once I'm at this point, therapy usually changes from crisis mode, to more exploration into what I want out of life, so out of the basic needs from maslow's hierarchy and into the psychological needs. Now, I haven't come to this realization on my own, but through years of therapy (and now multiple therapists).
I'd recommend sticking with therapy, and if you don't find your current therapist or their style to be meeting your needs, try investigating other therapists or therapeutic modalities.
So for me, it's a combination of things that work, the bare minimum being a low-dose of an anti-depressant. At my worst states, this is usually enough to lift me up to take care of my other basic needs like exercising, eating right, sleep, etc.
Once I'm at this point, therapy usually changes from crisis mode, to more exploration into what I want out of life, so out of the basic needs from maslow's hierarchy and into the psychological needs. Now, I haven't come to this realization on my own, but through years of therapy (and now multiple therapists).
I'd recommend sticking with therapy, and if you don't find your current therapist or their style to be meeting your needs, try investigating other therapists or therapeutic modalities.
My wife is a psychiatrist. I'm not an expert, but I have more second-hand access than most people.
> The obvious solution to these problems are SSRIs and other anti-depressants. These drugs are very powerful but have really bad side-effects for most people that take them.
I suspect you're referring mainly to the increased risk of suicide. Though, there are other less severe - but still not so fun side-effects. The way I've heard this explained (not through my wife), is anti-depressants help raise your mood. However, they can't and don't immediately jump you back to happiness. For someone down in the dumps, this means there's a short period on the way to recovery where energy and motivation levels are increasing, but they still have significant depression. This puts them in a zone where they're trending out of depression, but still have depression while having the motivation to take action on those
In other words, anti-depressants don't increase the severity of suicidal thoughts - but they can't give you increased energy. This can be dangerous since the drugs haven't had a chance to get you elevated to a point that the suicidal thoughts decrease.
----
I've learned that it can take a few tries to find the right anti-depressant for you. Different people react more positively to different drugs. If one isn't working, communicate with your provider to try a different one. Usually, within a few tries, you'll find one that works for you.
Relatedly, SSRI's aren't the only class of anti-depressants. SNRIs are an alternative class. Other drugs, like Wellbutrin, can also have anti-depressant effects while often having significantly less risk of negative side-effects.
----
Finally, therapy is critical. Regardless of your choice on drugs, having another human being helping you understand and process your feelings and emotions can be incredibly helpful to getting yourself to a better place.
> The obvious solution to these problems are SSRIs and other anti-depressants. These drugs are very powerful but have really bad side-effects for most people that take them.
I suspect you're referring mainly to the increased risk of suicide. Though, there are other less severe - but still not so fun side-effects. The way I've heard this explained (not through my wife), is anti-depressants help raise your mood. However, they can't and don't immediately jump you back to happiness. For someone down in the dumps, this means there's a short period on the way to recovery where energy and motivation levels are increasing, but they still have significant depression. This puts them in a zone where they're trending out of depression, but still have depression while having the motivation to take action on those
In other words, anti-depressants don't increase the severity of suicidal thoughts - but they can't give you increased energy. This can be dangerous since the drugs haven't had a chance to get you elevated to a point that the suicidal thoughts decrease.
----
I've learned that it can take a few tries to find the right anti-depressant for you. Different people react more positively to different drugs. If one isn't working, communicate with your provider to try a different one. Usually, within a few tries, you'll find one that works for you.
Relatedly, SSRI's aren't the only class of anti-depressants. SNRIs are an alternative class. Other drugs, like Wellbutrin, can also have anti-depressant effects while often having significantly less risk of negative side-effects.
----
Finally, therapy is critical. Regardless of your choice on drugs, having another human being helping you understand and process your feelings and emotions can be incredibly helpful to getting yourself to a better place.
I personally am on anti-depressents currently. Side-effects haven't been bad at all, and I have felt a lot better. There are still bad days and such, but at least I also have good days.
Talk to a doctor you like/trust, see what they reccomend. The worst which can happen is it doesn't work ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Talk to a doctor you like/trust, see what they reccomend. The worst which can happen is it doesn't work ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
First off, depression sucks. It's absolutely debilitating. I hope you're able to find relief.
I have taken a plethora of mood-stabilizers throughout different periods of my life. I went with no mood stabilizers for a number of years after leaving a job that was unfulfilling. I had to get back on an anti-depressant last fall after the pan looked to be over and then we went into another lockdown. I resisted the idea when it was presented by my therapist because I didn't want to admit that depression was on top of me. I should have relented sooner. My life became much more manageable once I started taking an antidepressant again.
I'm not going to comment on what I've taken or what my personal results were. That's for a medical professional to help you sort. What I will say is that not all antidepressants / mood-stabilizers have the same set of benefits and trade-offs. Be ready to try more than one to find something that is the correct balance for you. Don't get discouraged when the first (or second, or third) isn't the right solution. I'm not advocating swapping out prescriptions for the rest of your life. Just acknowledging that it can take some time to find the right one.
Finally, I recommend asking your physician about a sleep aid. I used to take something that absolutely knocked me on my ass but that could be habit-forming. I never formed a habit. But my doctor recently suggested something milder that hadn't worked for me years before. My body's chemistry has evolved since, and the milder medication is now effective. I had also stopped taking sleep aids for years until the pan gradually degraded my sleep until my memory was garbage and my physical balance was affected. Operating on a perpetual sleep deficit is not tenable.
The plan is not to remain on an antidepressant and sleep aid for the rest of my life. They're there to help me get through a period of time when they are necessary. How long I take them depends on world and personal events. I'm not going to beat myself up if I'm still taking them longer than I originally anticipated. They help. That's what counts.
PS: while I've had some pretty bad side effects from various medications (one made me extremely aggressive and risked putting me in physical danger because of how I responded to provocation), the more common effects are things like weight gain, sleep issues, dry mouth, etc. Don't let your fear of SSRIs stop you from finding out if they can have a positive life-altering effect. Best wishes to you.
I have taken a plethora of mood-stabilizers throughout different periods of my life. I went with no mood stabilizers for a number of years after leaving a job that was unfulfilling. I had to get back on an anti-depressant last fall after the pan looked to be over and then we went into another lockdown. I resisted the idea when it was presented by my therapist because I didn't want to admit that depression was on top of me. I should have relented sooner. My life became much more manageable once I started taking an antidepressant again.
I'm not going to comment on what I've taken or what my personal results were. That's for a medical professional to help you sort. What I will say is that not all antidepressants / mood-stabilizers have the same set of benefits and trade-offs. Be ready to try more than one to find something that is the correct balance for you. Don't get discouraged when the first (or second, or third) isn't the right solution. I'm not advocating swapping out prescriptions for the rest of your life. Just acknowledging that it can take some time to find the right one.
Finally, I recommend asking your physician about a sleep aid. I used to take something that absolutely knocked me on my ass but that could be habit-forming. I never formed a habit. But my doctor recently suggested something milder that hadn't worked for me years before. My body's chemistry has evolved since, and the milder medication is now effective. I had also stopped taking sleep aids for years until the pan gradually degraded my sleep until my memory was garbage and my physical balance was affected. Operating on a perpetual sleep deficit is not tenable.
The plan is not to remain on an antidepressant and sleep aid for the rest of my life. They're there to help me get through a period of time when they are necessary. How long I take them depends on world and personal events. I'm not going to beat myself up if I'm still taking them longer than I originally anticipated. They help. That's what counts.
PS: while I've had some pretty bad side effects from various medications (one made me extremely aggressive and risked putting me in physical danger because of how I responded to provocation), the more common effects are things like weight gain, sleep issues, dry mouth, etc. Don't let your fear of SSRIs stop you from finding out if they can have a positive life-altering effect. Best wishes to you.
Your best bet is to have a discussion with a doctor about this. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with taking medication that improves your quality of life, but only your doctor can help you make such decisions.
> For these reasons I am completely shit-scared of them. I see them as my option of last resort but increasingly I feel my options running out.
You don't have to take an SSRI. There are plenty of other medications out there, like mirtazapine or bupropion that don't have the same side effects that SSRIs have. Buspirone, as well, although it is indicated for anxiety, selectively targets receptor sites that mediate antidepressant effects compared to the shotgun blast approach of SSRIs.
There are now what are being marketed as SARI[1] and SMS[2] drugs, which often target the same sites as buspirone, but also have serotonin reuptake properties, as well, while blocking receptor sites that seem to induce undesired side effects. They seem to sidestep typical SSRI side effects, like sexual side effects and emotional blunting. Two drugs in this class are the only SSRI-like drugs that are allowed by the FDA to be advertised as having lower incidences of sexual side effects compared to SSRIs. Vilazadone and vortioxetine are those drugs. Trazodone can also be thought to be in the SARI class.
Then there are tricyclics and tetracyclics that are not necessarily like SSRIs, but have antidepressant effects. There's also agomelatine and low doses of atypical antipsychotics.
SSRIs are good at what they do, though. You might not experience the side effects that you're afraid of, either.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_antagonist_and_reupt...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_modulator_and_stimul...
> For these reasons I am completely shit-scared of them. I see them as my option of last resort but increasingly I feel my options running out.
You don't have to take an SSRI. There are plenty of other medications out there, like mirtazapine or bupropion that don't have the same side effects that SSRIs have. Buspirone, as well, although it is indicated for anxiety, selectively targets receptor sites that mediate antidepressant effects compared to the shotgun blast approach of SSRIs.
There are now what are being marketed as SARI[1] and SMS[2] drugs, which often target the same sites as buspirone, but also have serotonin reuptake properties, as well, while blocking receptor sites that seem to induce undesired side effects. They seem to sidestep typical SSRI side effects, like sexual side effects and emotional blunting. Two drugs in this class are the only SSRI-like drugs that are allowed by the FDA to be advertised as having lower incidences of sexual side effects compared to SSRIs. Vilazadone and vortioxetine are those drugs. Trazodone can also be thought to be in the SARI class.
Then there are tricyclics and tetracyclics that are not necessarily like SSRIs, but have antidepressant effects. There's also agomelatine and low doses of atypical antipsychotics.
SSRIs are good at what they do, though. You might not experience the side effects that you're afraid of, either.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_antagonist_and_reupt...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_modulator_and_stimul...
I think you can try anti-depressant for short term.
But before trying antidepressant i suggest you doing a comprehensive check up in case your depression caused by other health issue.
If that is not the case and you have persistent major depression despite having every reason to be happy you should research about fasting. If it is too hard for you can try antidepressant for few months to make fasting easier and later stop using antidepressants.
By fasting your brain will remember more primitive motivation so you will do without more complex motivations.
Depression is pretty normal. When they sterilize cats they live rest of their life in depression.
Only way of fixing it stop watching porn and fasting. So your brain will motivate you to have those.
Something worth knowing if you're going to take part in this conversation is the "serotonin hypothesis." Ignoring the conversation about whether antidepressants work* or not, depressed people don't have depleted serotonin or anything like that. It is not like a diabetic taking insulin.
There are many articles about this. Here's one. Feel free to google for more (try "serotonin hypothesis".) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3405681/
*"work" in this context is a bit hard to define, and may be temporary, or may work for some and make other people worse, or may have side effects, etc.
There are many articles about this. Here's one. Feel free to google for more (try "serotonin hypothesis".) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3405681/
*"work" in this context is a bit hard to define, and may be temporary, or may work for some and make other people worse, or may have side effects, etc.
As a chartered psychotherapist, I would suggest you go to a psychotherapist. Furthermore, I suggest you have some "aerobic therapy" (that is, exercise) and, if you can, interact with some people.
A couple of resources may help you gather some information and make a more informed decision:
[0] https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/depression
[1] https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/depression
My data point: I've been on Paroxetine for 20 years for really bad OCD and associated depression. Yea, the side effects suck, but they're a cake walk compared to the OCD and the depression.
Do what others in here have said though, talk to a professional.
Obviously, talk to medical professionals first and foremost, but based on some (non-professional) review of the literature, it seems to suggest that SSRIs solve the problem “flawlessly” in around half of those prescribed. For the other half, it doesn’t seem to work out as well (perhaps misdiagnoses?), but if you were prescribed these drugs, I would very much take these chances. If it doesn’t work, you can just stop taking it (at the doctor’s advice) and the side-effects will clear up shortly, so not much to loose.
My anecdotal experience is similar, it greatly helps some of my friends, while not doing much for others who were later turned out to not have depression to begin with.
My anecdotal experience is similar, it greatly helps some of my friends, while not doing much for others who were later turned out to not have depression to begin with.
To add to some of the comments saying to see a doctor:
See a doctor and _ask for therapy explicitly_. Get your therapist to then recommend anti depressants if they believe they will help you.
I did this a few years back. I was depressed, my friend pressured me into booking a doctors appointment, they scheduled therapy sessions for me, and then the therapist noticed I needed a bit more help along side the CBT and trauma dumping and gave a recommendation to my doctor.
Doctors don't know a lot about mental health, this is true. I think some of the bad experiences people here have are due to getting a doctors advice rather than using them to kick start the process.
(Disclaimer, I am in the UK, I cannot speak 100% if my advice works in the US)
See a doctor and _ask for therapy explicitly_. Get your therapist to then recommend anti depressants if they believe they will help you.
I did this a few years back. I was depressed, my friend pressured me into booking a doctors appointment, they scheduled therapy sessions for me, and then the therapist noticed I needed a bit more help along side the CBT and trauma dumping and gave a recommendation to my doctor.
Doctors don't know a lot about mental health, this is true. I think some of the bad experiences people here have are due to getting a doctors advice rather than using them to kick start the process.
(Disclaimer, I am in the UK, I cannot speak 100% if my advice works in the US)
Even if no one reads this, I do believe that anti depressants work.
They do reduce how much emotions you can feel, which helps you to do simple things like getting out of bed, cleaning the dishes, cleaning your room.
Combined with therapy, you can start to appreciate these improvements on your life style and eventually you can come off the anti depressants which healthy habits.
I've also been on anti anxiety medications before, and I recommend those also for similar reasons. It gives you just enough boost to be in situations that typically make you anxious, and that leads you to developing better relationships with those situations in future
They do reduce how much emotions you can feel, which helps you to do simple things like getting out of bed, cleaning the dishes, cleaning your room.
Combined with therapy, you can start to appreciate these improvements on your life style and eventually you can come off the anti depressants which healthy habits.
I've also been on anti anxiety medications before, and I recommend those also for similar reasons. It gives you just enough boost to be in situations that typically make you anxious, and that leads you to developing better relationships with those situations in future
After using lots of antidepressants and therapy, i solved it with meditation. I recommend the book "practical insight meditation" by venerable mahasi sayadaw. I applied the technique he teaches to the feeling of being sad, however it manifests physically.
I don't remember where I read that but major depression should be treated the most aggressively way possible because each failed attempt makes the next attempt less likely to succeed. This will probably mean a combinationof therapy, exercise and antidepressant.
The cocktails described in Stahl's Essential Psychopharmacology: Neuroscientific Basis and Practical Applications 4th Edition¹ are particularly effective but you absolutely need to be under the care of a psychiatrist to attempt that kind of treatment.
1) https://archive.org/details/stahlsessentialp0000stah
The cocktails described in Stahl's Essential Psychopharmacology: Neuroscientific Basis and Practical Applications 4th Edition¹ are particularly effective but you absolutely need to be under the care of a psychiatrist to attempt that kind of treatment.
1) https://archive.org/details/stahlsessentialp0000stah
I would try them. They probably have side effects, they did for me. But the side effects are definitely not worse than that pit in the stomach. At least for me. Exercise has also been effective at ameliorating some of my anxiety/depression.
There are risks with taking any medication, so your concerns have merit. I take medications for depression, anxiety, and ADHD. I consider myself very lucky to have a very patient and supportive doctor. As I come on and off medications, we always talk about the risks and potential benefits. The choice that I have to make for myself is if the benefits outweigh the risks.
Another thing to consider is that while medications can improve your quality of life, they're only part of the solution. I see a therapist weekly and a coach for ADHD on and off throughout the year. I have to exercise regularly or else my anxiety and depression become unbearable. It's hard work, but I know that consequences of not doing those things are far worse. In my case, my medications don't solve my depression and anxiety. What they do is bring me up enough that I can keep moving forward and keep improving, with the hope that one day I will untangle the mess of emotions and I may not need them anymore.
You mentioned that you've tried therapy. Did you stop because you felt better or because you didn't have a good rapport with your therapist? This is just my experience, but it took 2-3 years before my therapist and I were able to tear down all of the defenses I put up for decades. I'm at year 7 and I'm finally starting to push through some of my own behaviors and stories I tell myself to make progress and take back control of parts of my life I thought I had no control over.
I can't tell you what you should do. What I will say with absolutely certainty is that it is not weakness to want help. It is not weak to want to live a productive life. I would talk to your doctor about what you're experiencing to have another opinion about your situation. Medication for some people is the complete answer, but that's not always the case. I would strongly encourage you to find a therapist that you have a good rapport with and stay with them. Once again, at least in my case, the medications balanced me enough to deal with my mental health issues. Dealing with depression takes a lot of time and energy, but now I know the issues I'm really fighting, I don't feel helpless anymore. Take care of yourself. You are worthy of having a good life.
Another thing to consider is that while medications can improve your quality of life, they're only part of the solution. I see a therapist weekly and a coach for ADHD on and off throughout the year. I have to exercise regularly or else my anxiety and depression become unbearable. It's hard work, but I know that consequences of not doing those things are far worse. In my case, my medications don't solve my depression and anxiety. What they do is bring me up enough that I can keep moving forward and keep improving, with the hope that one day I will untangle the mess of emotions and I may not need them anymore.
You mentioned that you've tried therapy. Did you stop because you felt better or because you didn't have a good rapport with your therapist? This is just my experience, but it took 2-3 years before my therapist and I were able to tear down all of the defenses I put up for decades. I'm at year 7 and I'm finally starting to push through some of my own behaviors and stories I tell myself to make progress and take back control of parts of my life I thought I had no control over.
I can't tell you what you should do. What I will say with absolutely certainty is that it is not weakness to want help. It is not weak to want to live a productive life. I would talk to your doctor about what you're experiencing to have another opinion about your situation. Medication for some people is the complete answer, but that's not always the case. I would strongly encourage you to find a therapist that you have a good rapport with and stay with them. Once again, at least in my case, the medications balanced me enough to deal with my mental health issues. Dealing with depression takes a lot of time and energy, but now I know the issues I'm really fighting, I don't feel helpless anymore. Take care of yourself. You are worthy of having a good life.
1. There are genetic markers that can inform the choice of medication for depression. We are starting to see better effectiveness than just the shotgun try each one until you find an option without too many side effects.
2. I took Prozac for a 3-4 years and felt like it helped a bit, and I had very limited side effects - even good side effects. A close friend is trying Zoloft/Stratera and is having annoying side effects like muscle spasms during the first month, but those are reducing.
3. Therapy even more important than medication. Try a different therapy methodology. If it doesn’t stick for you, try adding SSRI or similar. You can always stop taking the drug.
2. I took Prozac for a 3-4 years and felt like it helped a bit, and I had very limited side effects - even good side effects. A close friend is trying Zoloft/Stratera and is having annoying side effects like muscle spasms during the first month, but those are reducing.
3. Therapy even more important than medication. Try a different therapy methodology. If it doesn’t stick for you, try adding SSRI or similar. You can always stop taking the drug.
Why’d you stop Prozac? I’ve been taking it about the same length.
reasons:
0. A few well placed acid trips helped me decide that I should follow my passion instead of toiling away at The Normal Path which brought me nothing but sadness. Acid beats a lot of cognitive distortions.
1. Root of my depression was trying to do 4 years of college courses that bored me to tears and required a ton of homework. So, I dropped out to go work in tech.
2. Much of my social anxiety was gone after the time and I had learned a lot of missing social skills.
My depression is back since COVID kinda wiped out all the good stuff that was going on in my life and reset things back to a lonely state. Considering starting therapy & treatment again while I figure out the life changes I should make.
Anyways, take drugs thoughtfully is my best advice.
0. A few well placed acid trips helped me decide that I should follow my passion instead of toiling away at The Normal Path which brought me nothing but sadness. Acid beats a lot of cognitive distortions.
1. Root of my depression was trying to do 4 years of college courses that bored me to tears and required a ton of homework. So, I dropped out to go work in tech.
2. Much of my social anxiety was gone after the time and I had learned a lot of missing social skills.
My depression is back since COVID kinda wiped out all the good stuff that was going on in my life and reset things back to a lonely state. Considering starting therapy & treatment again while I figure out the life changes I should make.
Anyways, take drugs thoughtfully is my best advice.
Hmm. It sounds like Prozac helped you and then you stopped taking it.
Depression sucks. If you ever need someone to chat with, DM me on Twitter.
Depression sucks. If you ever need someone to chat with, DM me on Twitter.
If you want to avoid SSRIs, you can try ketamine treatment. Should be able to find it in most major cities now. In my city the cash price is about $400/a session and you probably need 2-3 sessions. Pros: if it works you will start to feel better in just a few days, and you only have to get a few 2-4 hour treatments a year. Cons: hard to get insurance to pay for it, SSRI are cheaper.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/ketamine-for-major-depre...
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/ketamine-for-major-depre...
Ketamine is good and it's nice to see the recommendation but you are wayyyyyyy low on your numbers haha.
Minimum induction that basically every clinic follows is the 6 session schedule.
From there the standard is to slowly taper down to once every 4-6 weeks. Some patients cannot taper and so need more constant.
For example, I'm more "Ketamine resistant" so I was on 2 weeks for a while, then 3, then about a year in I made it to 4, 5, then 6 with the help of doctor prescribed at home dosing.
About $10,000-$12,000 out of pocket for a year's worth of infusions for me. Saved my life and turned it around, so totally worth it.
Also...the spiritual benefits. I think that alone, having that seed planted is invaluable. To me.
But for nearly everyone the effect wears off after 4 weeks (hence the need for a response w/ Ketamine). So it's what one does over a few years to shift their brain superstructure that I think weans them off. And all that BDNF + everything else flying around in there haha.
Minimum induction that basically every clinic follows is the 6 session schedule.
From there the standard is to slowly taper down to once every 4-6 weeks. Some patients cannot taper and so need more constant.
For example, I'm more "Ketamine resistant" so I was on 2 weeks for a while, then 3, then about a year in I made it to 4, 5, then 6 with the help of doctor prescribed at home dosing.
About $10,000-$12,000 out of pocket for a year's worth of infusions for me. Saved my life and turned it around, so totally worth it.
Also...the spiritual benefits. I think that alone, having that seed planted is invaluable. To me.
But for nearly everyone the effect wears off after 4 weeks (hence the need for a response w/ Ketamine). So it's what one does over a few years to shift their brain superstructure that I think weans them off. And all that BDNF + everything else flying around in there haha.
Fortunately there are compounded racemic ketamine options in a lot of places, whether troches (lozenges) or nasal spray (that's the one I use).
I pay out of pocket fully, and it's $60/month.
Clearly YMMV, but worth looking into if the infusions are prohibitively expensive.
I pay out of pocket fully, and it's $60/month.
Clearly YMMV, but worth looking into if the infusions are prohibitively expensive.
A hybrid approach is occasional infusions plus at home. I was infusion exclusive for a while and am at home exclusive now (extremely disciplined about it). But my Ket admin doctor and I both I think have the opinion that the occasional IV treatments.... It's hard to beat.
It just does something different. But then at home can help maintain in a more muted way. I think it's because a mainline infusion has no top end limit for drip speed, whereas buccal/nasal membranes can only transport so much at a time. There's a few dose charts that basically flatline at the beginning as transport/transporter stuff saturates vs the line which goes sky-high. Also the bioavailability is phenomenal, and it's easier with IV to avoid the dose creep/tolerance/psychological addiction aspects.
That said, IV Ketamine is hella expensive. :'( An $80 Ketamine nasal spray (not even with insurance, just that), can last me for 6 months with weekly lower dose solid session topup treatments. So, ~$12 a month. Less than HBO Max w/o ads. Hell yeah. That's a good price for an effective treatment haha. Both seem to have unique benefits too that I haven't easily gotten wjfb the other.
Just a few thoughts but am sure you're on a similar wavelength too so mostly just sharing! Curious to hear what your thoughts experiences were/are/have been.
It just does something different. But then at home can help maintain in a more muted way. I think it's because a mainline infusion has no top end limit for drip speed, whereas buccal/nasal membranes can only transport so much at a time. There's a few dose charts that basically flatline at the beginning as transport/transporter stuff saturates vs the line which goes sky-high. Also the bioavailability is phenomenal, and it's easier with IV to avoid the dose creep/tolerance/psychological addiction aspects.
That said, IV Ketamine is hella expensive. :'( An $80 Ketamine nasal spray (not even with insurance, just that), can last me for 6 months with weekly lower dose solid session topup treatments. So, ~$12 a month. Less than HBO Max w/o ads. Hell yeah. That's a good price for an effective treatment haha. Both seem to have unique benefits too that I haven't easily gotten wjfb the other.
Just a few thoughts but am sure you're on a similar wavelength too so mostly just sharing! Curious to hear what your thoughts experiences were/are/have been.
Yes, Esketamine (what they're calling S-ketamine) can be a good one. Just be careful if there's any history of psychosis.
It nearly got me stabbed and had to be discontinued. It really can work on depression, though, in a way the other drugs just don't.
Makes me wonder how much the others are doing, honestly, though missing a dose causes misery. I truly wonder sometimes what just slowly getting off them all would do to her.
It nearly got me stabbed and had to be discontinued. It really can work on depression, though, in a way the other drugs just don't.
Makes me wonder how much the others are doing, honestly, though missing a dose causes misery. I truly wonder sometimes what just slowly getting off them all would do to her.
Try exercising.
> In MDD, larger effects were found for moderate intensity, aerobic exercise, and interventions supervised by exercise professionals. Exercise has a large and significant antidepressant effect in people with depression (including MDD). Previous meta-analyses may have underestimated the benefits of exercise due to publication bias. Our data strongly support the claim that exercise is an evidence-based treatment for depression. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26978184/
> In MDD, larger effects were found for moderate intensity, aerobic exercise, and interventions supervised by exercise professionals. Exercise has a large and significant antidepressant effect in people with depression (including MDD). Previous meta-analyses may have underestimated the benefits of exercise due to publication bias. Our data strongly support the claim that exercise is an evidence-based treatment for depression. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26978184/
As someone who has struggled with depression and generalised anxiety for most of my life, I can attest that drugs (SSRI, SNRI) work. They take time to get used to. Use it in combination with therapy and counselling.
i have a life long history of major depression. only recently have i felt any better. i checked myself into rehab and had an amazing therapist. specifically EMDR therapy for trauma, and finally deciding to forgive myself for pretty evil things i did in my addiction. gabapentin for anxiety also helped. best of luck, please seek professional help, but don't be afraid to switch therapists/psychiatrists until you find someone you connect with. much love to you, and good job speaking up and being vulnerable, that's a difficult first step towards healing.
I can't say I had full on depression, but I did go through periods where I spent more time in bad moods than good moods, and I didn't have a clear idea of where I was going in life.
I remember watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drv3BP0Fdi8
Two points I remember clearly taking from this lecture:
- Omega-3. Make sure they are 1) high quality 2) high EPA content 3) over 1000mg of EPA per day
- Walking. If you can spend more than one hour walking, do it.
The other things I sort of knew, like sunlight and social connection. They are also very important, obviously.
So, try to find a way, any way, to have some sort of social connection. Nothing deep. Just very casual and occasional.
I used to go to meetup.com and look for things that interested me. At the time it was: pickup soccer, and language exchange. Not only I was interested in them, but they don't require social skills to participate in. You don't need to approach anyone. For language exchange, there's usually seat arrangement so the organizers will decide for you who you will talk to. So it's not like you're in a bar and have to work up the courage to approach people. This is very important. Same with soccer. There's no social skill required. The organizer will manage assigning you to a team.
One thing to keep in mind: when you go to a meetup, do not talk about having depression. It's not a positive/welcoming topic. Keep it light and casual.
And finally, this is just my personal take. It's possible that your job itself is a source of depression. If you are not in desparate need for money or can live off your savings for a few months, I would consider quitting. Obviously since I don't know anything about your life, it's possible that if you quit your life will turn out very bad in a number of different ways. But at least it's something to consider. Given that you visit HN you're probably in the tech sectore, and if so, I think it's reasonable to assume that you won't have a hard time finding a new job in a few months after taking a short break.
I remember watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drv3BP0Fdi8
Two points I remember clearly taking from this lecture:
- Omega-3. Make sure they are 1) high quality 2) high EPA content 3) over 1000mg of EPA per day
- Walking. If you can spend more than one hour walking, do it.
The other things I sort of knew, like sunlight and social connection. They are also very important, obviously.
So, try to find a way, any way, to have some sort of social connection. Nothing deep. Just very casual and occasional.
I used to go to meetup.com and look for things that interested me. At the time it was: pickup soccer, and language exchange. Not only I was interested in them, but they don't require social skills to participate in. You don't need to approach anyone. For language exchange, there's usually seat arrangement so the organizers will decide for you who you will talk to. So it's not like you're in a bar and have to work up the courage to approach people. This is very important. Same with soccer. There's no social skill required. The organizer will manage assigning you to a team.
One thing to keep in mind: when you go to a meetup, do not talk about having depression. It's not a positive/welcoming topic. Keep it light and casual.
And finally, this is just my personal take. It's possible that your job itself is a source of depression. If you are not in desparate need for money or can live off your savings for a few months, I would consider quitting. Obviously since I don't know anything about your life, it's possible that if you quit your life will turn out very bad in a number of different ways. But at least it's something to consider. Given that you visit HN you're probably in the tech sectore, and if so, I think it's reasonable to assume that you won't have a hard time finding a new job in a few months after taking a short break.
I've been coming across quite a few posts on this topic and would be great to get inputs on this topic (weird opinion ..... I feel real people can provide better inputs than isolate doctors).
i) How does one identify that they have anxiety or depression? (vs. the shit happens feeling that can be brushed off over a period of time)
ii) How to identify when professional help is the required (vs. running up on hourly bills for random pointless "talk therapy")
iii) When are meds required and what they do?
I feel many would be inquisitive about these (taboo) questions. Many thanks for inputs.
i) How does one identify that they have anxiety or depression? (vs. the shit happens feeling that can be brushed off over a period of time)
ii) How to identify when professional help is the required (vs. running up on hourly bills for random pointless "talk therapy")
iii) When are meds required and what they do?
I feel many would be inquisitive about these (taboo) questions. Many thanks for inputs.
What worked for me was cutting all drugs and alcohol then waiting around 6-9 months for my mind to heal. Exercise if you want to wake up deliriously happy but the important part was no substances.
Not all drugs are created equal.
I've been on Welbutrin for about four years now; absolutely life-changing; not an SSRI, so really minimal side effects. 10/10, will take again.
Welbutrin is really special. It's not an SSRI, it's not a TCA. It's an NDRI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine%E2%80%93dopamin... and there aren't a whole lot of others like it.
I've been on Welbutrin for about four years now; absolutely life-changing; not an SSRI, so really minimal side effects. 10/10, will take again.
Welbutrin is really special. It's not an SSRI, it's not a TCA. It's an NDRI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine%E2%80%93dopamin... and there aren't a whole lot of others like it.
Did you try many drugs before you found Welbutrin?
I take Wellbutrin. It came after a long string of SSRIs, and I take it with Effexor (an SSRI) to manage obsessional symptoms.
The side effects of Wellbutrin are on average lesser than SSRIs, but be aware / mindful that SSRIs are a very wide class with varying side effects, targeting different symptoms. It can take some experimentation before you find the right fit, in terms of both relieving your depression and minimizing side effects.
In my experience, a psychiatrist will generally start with their “preferred” / go-to SSRI, but a good doctor should be attentive to your specific symptoms of depression, and your reaction to the side effect profile. Then you can start tinkering to see what works.
The side effects of Wellbutrin are on average lesser than SSRIs, but be aware / mindful that SSRIs are a very wide class with varying side effects, targeting different symptoms. It can take some experimentation before you find the right fit, in terms of both relieving your depression and minimizing side effects.
In my experience, a psychiatrist will generally start with their “preferred” / go-to SSRI, but a good doctor should be attentive to your specific symptoms of depression, and your reaction to the side effect profile. Then you can start tinkering to see what works.
I didn't because I was in a similar situation to you, I was afraid of SSRIs. I did some research, found Welbutrin, asked for it first, it was great, never tried anything again.
I've come to see medication as just one part of the path
I used to view taking prescribed drugs as a weakness, mostly due to how my mother viewed them as moral failing or something. I needed more God :/
They won't cure you but they will help you do the other things to make it through the day. For some, like me, depression can be a lifetime affliction due to brain chemistry.
I saw a quote the other day that seems cliche but still relevant.
"It's ok if you can't make it yourself, store bought is ok too"
I used to view taking prescribed drugs as a weakness, mostly due to how my mother viewed them as moral failing or something. I needed more God :/
They won't cure you but they will help you do the other things to make it through the day. For some, like me, depression can be a lifetime affliction due to brain chemistry.
I saw a quote the other day that seems cliche but still relevant.
"It's ok if you can't make it yourself, store bought is ok too"
I found Johann Hari's book on the subject, "Lost Connections," interesting. It takes a slightly anti-medication stance on tackling depression.
On the other hand, a tiny dose of a well-tolerated SSRI medication helped me. That + therapy at the same time. IMO, the medication is useful to reduce the acuity of the depression/anxiety just enough so that you can start to make productive (and depression-reducing) changes to your life (such as establish an exercise routine etc).
On the other hand, a tiny dose of a well-tolerated SSRI medication helped me. That + therapy at the same time. IMO, the medication is useful to reduce the acuity of the depression/anxiety just enough so that you can start to make productive (and depression-reducing) changes to your life (such as establish an exercise routine etc).
We’re just discovering that depression is caused by physical changes in the brain.
Luckily we’re also discovering that drugs that target the glutamate pathway can often reverse these changes within a matter of hours or minutes.
Check this video out from Therapy in a Nutshell for some basic info: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zECMyPdXS1A
Anecdotally, from my experience, it was like an antidote or a brain reset.
Luckily we’re also discovering that drugs that target the glutamate pathway can often reverse these changes within a matter of hours or minutes.
Check this video out from Therapy in a Nutshell for some basic info: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zECMyPdXS1A
Anecdotally, from my experience, it was like an antidote or a brain reset.
Go talk to a doctor they see this stuff everyday.
Seriously, there's lots of treatments. Lots of different side-effects. Between you, you'll experiment until you find something that works, and you may manage to be in a much better place than you were.
Right now, you really have no idea if you have depression or severe anxiety.
This isn't like cancer. You won't be dead in 5 years. Go get treatment, and keep your life and your job.
Seriously, there's lots of treatments. Lots of different side-effects. Between you, you'll experiment until you find something that works, and you may manage to be in a much better place than you were.
Right now, you really have no idea if you have depression or severe anxiety.
This isn't like cancer. You won't be dead in 5 years. Go get treatment, and keep your life and your job.
You don’t need to be a doctor to ask:
* are you sleeping enough?
* are you exercising?
* do you have social connections?
* do you eat enough fruits and veg? Omega-3s?
Did you try simply sitting down and with closed eyes and waiting?
From my experience dealing with depression, it's likely connected to unprocessed feelings. Stuff that was too painful to face and therefore was shoved down. The problem is that they don't stop hurting you just because you ignore them.
Drugs will mostly mask the problem from my experience, unless you intentionally use them as a bridge to get to a point where you can solve it.
From my experience dealing with depression, it's likely connected to unprocessed feelings. Stuff that was too painful to face and therefore was shoved down. The problem is that they don't stop hurting you just because you ignore them.
Drugs will mostly mask the problem from my experience, unless you intentionally use them as a bridge to get to a point where you can solve it.
Do you exercise regularly? First thing I would make sure to take a 1hr walk or short jog every day, go outside and get some sunshine. Maybe 30 min walk in morning and then another walk after work. Diet is also very important, cut out all sweets and fried food, add small fish to you diet like mackerel and sardines for omega 3’s. One or two cups of (good) coffee has been shown to reduce depression symptoms as well
All the people telling you not to take antidepressants are not doctors. No doctor would give you medical advice through an HN thread.
I can only speak to my personal experience, but my personal experience is that SSRIs saved my life. Please talk to a doctor and be frank about your fear of treatment.
Depression is a bitch, but it’s also surmountable. And there’s nothing wrong with using every tool at your disposal to surmount it.
I can only speak to my personal experience, but my personal experience is that SSRIs saved my life. Please talk to a doctor and be frank about your fear of treatment.
Depression is a bitch, but it’s also surmountable. And there’s nothing wrong with using every tool at your disposal to surmount it.
There's a strong causal relationship between regular exercise and mental well-being. Start by doing one push-up. Do it now, not tomorrow.
SSRIs are really not as powerful as it sounds like you think they are. At least in the 'regular' doses I've taken, you can barely tell they're there. You've heard stories about extreme cases, which you probably won't be. And it's better to try and find out if medication helps you than go how every many more years without knowing if that's a way out.
Find a job you like. I thought I had a decent job in a field I enjoyed but just was unhappy all the time. Switched to a job I thought I would be less interested in, and love it. There are so many add on effects of having a job you like (or don't). That alone has raised my happiness level on a 10 point scale from around 3 to around a 9.
I am on anti-depressants. They are life changing for me. As close to a miracle drug as I can imagine. They let me function
What are you on and how did you find your way to it if you don't mind sharing?
I am on 20mg of Paxil. I suffered from some debilitating anxiety, and while I was still functioning day to day, I was in a fairly fearful mood. I spoke to my GP (Australian primary care provider doctor), and he made me do a "mental-health checklist", and that suggested I did in fact have anxiety. He then asked if I wanted to try some medication. He put me on 20mg of Paxil. Within 2 weeks I was feeling sooo much better. In conjunction, I saw a psychologist for 6mo to help me put things in perspective.
Hello so the first thing you want to do is see a mental health professional and/or therapy. The second thing is, SSRIs tend to be pretty benign. I'm on Lexapro and the side effects are pretty tolerable and the benefits far outweigh the side effects. I wish you luck on this journey.
Have you looked into non-pharmacological treatments like tDCS or rTMS? brain stimulation is safe and often as effective as drugs but without the side-effects.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30917990/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30917990/
*when used within timing, voltage, and montage guidelines
Fisher Wallace for the higher powered more-supervised insurance-covered version.
I think if you get to magnetic stimulation then IV Ketamine has similar raw costs but less time and better success rates.
That said tDCS has helped me when I get negative-value spirals and I need to suppress/quiet that part of the brain a bit.
Fisher Wallace for the higher powered more-supervised insurance-covered version.
I think if you get to magnetic stimulation then IV Ketamine has similar raw costs but less time and better success rates.
That said tDCS has helped me when I get negative-value spirals and I need to suppress/quiet that part of the brain a bit.
[deleted]
Ketamine therapy is supposed to be revolutionary for depression. You should look into it and it doesn’t have to be taken daily like SSRIs.
My sister is on SSRIs. It took a couple of different meds but she is pretty happy now. You need to do both meds and therapy for good results.
My sister is on SSRIs. It took a couple of different meds but she is pretty happy now. You need to do both meds and therapy for good results.
Antidepressants are a hit or miss. You need to find one that works for you. If you don´t like them you can quit them. And until you go to the doctor you won´t know what the treatment will be. Maybe they will give you Bupropion. Who knows?
Excercise, fasting, meditation, pranayama, anti-depressant medications, therapy
Very nice, I love this! :D
Side-effects: I generally react very badly to drugs. I wouldn’t put the SSRIs I’ve been on in the “really bad side-effects” by any stretch. Worth the trade-off in my case.
Aside: Get yourself tested for the MTHFR gene mutation.
Aside: Get yourself tested for the MTHFR gene mutation.
MTHFR is a slippery slope down a road to quackery and pseudoscientific BS, just a heads up. Not saying that methylation isn't a problem but it's one of the fastest routes to burn $ with little change. Naturopaths and such can technically help but most of it is the placebo effect with an involved provider and getting some life aspects straightened out. I love the idea of integrative medicine but there's so much crap these days that's hard to tell apart from real science.
Plus, it's like Scientology, the syndromes and tests continue to get more expensive with little actual recourse. The treatment protocols are long and feel like you're doing something to treat something untreatable but for many they do nothing. For some they do a lot. But if you do the basics you see in other sciences of the body (eliminate corn/wheat/dairy etc, exercise, eat cleanly with a balanced diet, lower inflammation), you can get most of the benefits. Right now I think a lot of DNA tests are sort of a modern day hocus pocus trick to convince people we have some all seeing eye vision of what's causing what. It gives security but the science is still very very weak and there's a lot more work to do.
I'm sure once genetic-related language models mature we can be a bit more sure but it's just a lot of hokey pokey for the money. But some people do feel better with it. I was not one of them, and some of my friends were not either. :'( sometimes I think it may be regression to the mean too, so it's all hard to say
Rant, over!
Plus, it's like Scientology, the syndromes and tests continue to get more expensive with little actual recourse. The treatment protocols are long and feel like you're doing something to treat something untreatable but for many they do nothing. For some they do a lot. But if you do the basics you see in other sciences of the body (eliminate corn/wheat/dairy etc, exercise, eat cleanly with a balanced diet, lower inflammation), you can get most of the benefits. Right now I think a lot of DNA tests are sort of a modern day hocus pocus trick to convince people we have some all seeing eye vision of what's causing what. It gives security but the science is still very very weak and there's a lot more work to do.
I'm sure once genetic-related language models mature we can be a bit more sure but it's just a lot of hokey pokey for the money. But some people do feel better with it. I was not one of them, and some of my friends were not either. :'( sometimes I think it may be regression to the mean too, so it's all hard to say
Rant, over!
step 1 - See a professional. It works for lots of people. It can work for you.
for me - I went the medication route and it didn't work for me. It may seem cringe but watching these videos changed my life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt-cnPHBcBM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv0oTrpFOPM
So for me the solution was
* exercise
* motorcycles
And after hanging out with other bikers I've learned a lot of people are dealing with issues.
Good luck on your journey!
for me - I went the medication route and it didn't work for me. It may seem cringe but watching these videos changed my life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt-cnPHBcBM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv0oTrpFOPM
So for me the solution was
* exercise
* motorcycles
And after hanging out with other bikers I've learned a lot of people are dealing with issues.
Good luck on your journey!
Riding motorcycles has done the same for me. Take a day and just ride around and get lost. You get disconnected from technology and live in the moment. I’ve met some amazing people and I’m involved with a nonprofit biker organization now. Ride safe brother!
For anyone not looking for a prescriptive answer, but just a way to put words to your experience, and some proof that you’re not crazy, I highly recommend the book _Reasons to Stay Alive_ by Matt Haig.
Doctors are full of shit on this equation. Find a psychiatrist or a therapist. Exercise, read, enjoy the Sun and be busy. Do not take anti depressants.
This is awful advice, OP, please do not listen to this.
Therapist is good, exercise and sun too but the rest is so bad I really would not know where to begin.
Therapist is good, exercise and sun too but the rest is so bad I really would not know where to begin.
Psychiatrists are doctors.
Whats you work / love / sex / health / family / friend situation ?
Always better to see a pro but we can try finding a root cause.
Always better to see a pro but we can try finding a root cause.
Try replacing 'depression' with 'high blood pressure' and see if you feel the same way about the pills?
Except high blood pressure is a lot easier to measure and there's a lot less subjectivity involved in the decision. Whether or not someone is depressed is nowhere near as easy to measure
Op says they're depressed. That's enough of a measure to tell if they're depressed.
[deleted]
I have had depression for years.
Slowly creeping in.
Last year three things happened:
1. I got a light antidepressants
2. I switched from smoking weed with tabacco to without tabacco
3. I took ecstasy for the first time
Number one lifted my mood. Number two reduced my lethargic and number three Reminded me how it feels to be happy and it gave me back human empathy as well.
I was wearing glasses for a long time and that always made the idea of needing help for my brain easy to accept. Why do I accept that wearing glasses is normal and just necessary but my brain has to work 'normal enough' without help?
On a side note though: mote depressed you get the less you have to loose anyway right? After all hard depression leads to doing nothing and thriving to end it. You need to realize that this mental state already gives you the chance to do whatever you want.
After all if you really fuck it up, you still are at the same point of ending your life.
Good luck!
Slowly creeping in.
Last year three things happened:
1. I got a light antidepressants
2. I switched from smoking weed with tabacco to without tabacco
3. I took ecstasy for the first time
Number one lifted my mood. Number two reduced my lethargic and number three Reminded me how it feels to be happy and it gave me back human empathy as well.
I was wearing glasses for a long time and that always made the idea of needing help for my brain easy to accept. Why do I accept that wearing glasses is normal and just necessary but my brain has to work 'normal enough' without help?
On a side note though: mote depressed you get the less you have to loose anyway right? After all hard depression leads to doing nothing and thriving to end it. You need to realize that this mental state already gives you the chance to do whatever you want.
After all if you really fuck it up, you still are at the same point of ending your life.
Good luck!
> I took ecstasy for the first time
The middle part of PiHKAL (Phenethylamines I Have Known and Loved) talks about successfully using MDMA for treatment. Interesting book. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30827112
The middle part of PiHKAL (Phenethylamines I Have Known and Loved) talks about successfully using MDMA for treatment. Interesting book. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30827112
When you start learning how to ride a bike, training wheels help.
Once you're comfortable- take the training wheels off.
Once you're comfortable- take the training wheels off.
And also - it's a cliche fucking answer, but make sure you get outside and see some sunlight every day. If you have the time to do it, walk or bike to your destinations instead of taking the car or public transport.
Walking for about an hour a day in the daytime will likely bring you similar mental benefits as strenuous exercise does. And on the plus-side you're not cooped up in a gym like a hamster in a wheel.
Walking for about an hour a day in the daytime will likely bring you similar mental benefits as strenuous exercise does. And on the plus-side you're not cooped up in a gym like a hamster in a wheel.
Sleep and exercise. Also, make sure your physical health is sound, get a checkup at the doc.
Two books to check out: How to Change your Mind by Michael Pollan and The Mind Illuminated by Culadasa (John Yates, PhD)
Meditation and/or psychedelic drugs (microdosing or macrodosing) are tools that will help you on your journey immensely.
We’ve been using psychedelics for thousands of years. Nothing to write off about this powerful medicine.
Meditation and/or psychedelic drugs (microdosing or macrodosing) are tools that will help you on your journey immensely.
We’ve been using psychedelics for thousands of years. Nothing to write off about this powerful medicine.
Please consult a doctor and do not take mental health advice from this clown fiesta website.
Also, quick disambiguation for you, and/or anyone who stumbles on this in the future who may be looking for help:
- PsychOLOGIST: therapy, talk, feelings
- PsychIATRIST: drugs, neurotransmitters, ECT, TMS, etc.
If your neurological chemistry isn't working right in the first place, no amount of therapy is ever going to help you. That's when you go for the drugs through a qualified psychiatrist. Once that's in place, THEN you go see a psychologist for therapy on a regular basis, both to mend the damage long-term and hopefully help you establish the tools necessary to prevent it happening again. But if your brain is fundamentally jacked up because it doesn't have the right balance of neurotransmitters in there, nothing that therapist does is going to matter. So if you tried therapy and nothing's moving the needle, talk to a pschiatrist to see if medication is a good option in your case.
Above all, remember that his is medical science, not witchcraft. We're still learning about how the brain works, but it isn't casting bones or shaking a magic 8 ball either. There's a surprisingly strong amount of science backing this stuff, especially when you consider the human brain as a quantum computing device that is both affected by, and can affect, its own neurotransmitters on an internal and external basis simultaneously. (And that's just the tip of the neurological complexity iceberg...)
> UPDATE: Since you're worried about the drugs, talk to your psychiatrist about TMS. Short for "transcranial magnetic stimulation", it's an evidence-based treatment that is usually reserved for when the drugs don't work, but if your insurance covers it (assuming you're in the US like me, hope you're better off than that though!), it's a non-drug based therapy that can help. Not guaranteed because everybody's different, but it's worth a discussion at the very least. > > There's also ECT (electroconvulsive therapy). Yes, electro-shock. No it's not AT ALL like you see in the movies. It's remarkably safe and effective according to what I've read, though not without some risk. You don't want average run-of-the-mill idiots doing it either, and you sure as hell don't want med school students learning on you. But with the supervision of a skilled physician and team, it's helped people where nothing else has. Also worth a discussion with your doctor, though I honestly advise SSRIs first (I'm not a doctor though so take that with a grain of salt). > > Neither of the above relies on medication whatsoever. Both use external energy sources to influence neurological electrical transmission and (hopefully) stimulate production of the same.
- PsychOLOGIST: therapy, talk, feelings
- PsychIATRIST: drugs, neurotransmitters, ECT, TMS, etc.
If your neurological chemistry isn't working right in the first place, no amount of therapy is ever going to help you. That's when you go for the drugs through a qualified psychiatrist. Once that's in place, THEN you go see a psychologist for therapy on a regular basis, both to mend the damage long-term and hopefully help you establish the tools necessary to prevent it happening again. But if your brain is fundamentally jacked up because it doesn't have the right balance of neurotransmitters in there, nothing that therapist does is going to matter. So if you tried therapy and nothing's moving the needle, talk to a pschiatrist to see if medication is a good option in your case.
Above all, remember that his is medical science, not witchcraft. We're still learning about how the brain works, but it isn't casting bones or shaking a magic 8 ball either. There's a surprisingly strong amount of science backing this stuff, especially when you consider the human brain as a quantum computing device that is both affected by, and can affect, its own neurotransmitters on an internal and external basis simultaneously. (And that's just the tip of the neurological complexity iceberg...)
> UPDATE: Since you're worried about the drugs, talk to your psychiatrist about TMS. Short for "transcranial magnetic stimulation", it's an evidence-based treatment that is usually reserved for when the drugs don't work, but if your insurance covers it (assuming you're in the US like me, hope you're better off than that though!), it's a non-drug based therapy that can help. Not guaranteed because everybody's different, but it's worth a discussion at the very least. > > There's also ECT (electroconvulsive therapy). Yes, electro-shock. No it's not AT ALL like you see in the movies. It's remarkably safe and effective according to what I've read, though not without some risk. You don't want average run-of-the-mill idiots doing it either, and you sure as hell don't want med school students learning on you. But with the supervision of a skilled physician and team, it's helped people where nothing else has. Also worth a discussion with your doctor, though I honestly advise SSRIs first (I'm not a doctor though so take that with a grain of salt). > > Neither of the above relies on medication whatsoever. Both use external energy sources to influence neurological electrical transmission and (hopefully) stimulate production of the same.
TMS and ECS probably after running through the atypicals, they are a massive effort. I lean towards recommending pursuing mainline antidepressants and therapy then either atypicals and/or Ketamine if first lines fail. Once certain schedule one substances get descheduled with codesigned therapy, basically all bets are off. ;P
I was 35 before I talked to my doctor. Been on meds since and it’s been a life changer.
Do you exercise? It releases a ton of hormones that are other artificially replicated.
If you did not take meds, do it asap. I regret not taking them sooner enough.
Despite what other commenters are saying, if you ask for advice from internet strangers, I think it's reasonable to receive advice from internet strangers, and not simply get told to "go somewhere else."
So here's my internet stranger recommendation.
First, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is the "gold-standard" (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5797481/) in the therapy route.
> "(1) CBT is the most researched form of psychotherapy. (2) No other form of psychotherapy has been shown to be systematically superior to CBT; if there are systematic differences between psychotherapies, they typically favor CBT. (3) Moreover, the CBT theoretical models/mechanisms of change have been the most researched and are in line with the current mainstream paradigms of human mind and behavior (e.g., information processing)."
But often when people go to see a "therapist", either they don't do CBT, or the patient or therapist does not realize that all the worksheets and exercises really actually need to be done. CBT is a lot like physical therapy, if you don't do the exercises, you likely won't get better. If you have not tried CBT before, or are not sure, the book "Feeling Good" is the thing to pick up.
Second, to answer your specific question on SSRIs: SSRIs do have side effects. They're not that bad. I was on them for some 6 years. However, I would rather have not have had the side effects, and not taken the drug, in part because SSRIs also didn't make me in particular feel any better. That said, on average, SSRIs do work while you're taking them for most people. SSRIs + CBT at the same time tends to be the most effective combo.
Finally, here's my non-scientific advice from an internet stranger who has been where you are, and is no longer there. Take it as you will.
In your head there's a little voice. It's the one reading this right now! You can make it talk if you want. Here, make it say "purple octopus fiddly pop". See? That's not you. You're the thing _hearing_ that voice.
That voice talks all the time.
When you roll over at night, maybe it says "oh god, maybe I'm going to get fired". Maybe says "oh, I bet I deserve to get fired". Maybe it says "oh gosh, I can't even get this depression under control, and if I don't, everything is gonna collapse". You aren't that voice!
Sometimes it plays a little movie, like the last time an embarrassing moment happened, or what you could have said as a witty come back. When the movie plays, you're not really there, but your body doesn't know that, and so it builds up all physical sensations of emotion.
That voice is a reflex in your head. When someone taps your knee, and your leg kicks into the air, it wasn't you that kicked. It's just a reflex.
Here, I'll prove it to you. Set a timer for 3 minutes and try and not think about anything. Just pick a point on the wall, or maybe watch your breath. I'll bet you can't do it. The moment you try, there's the voice again. Maybe it's saying things like "oh why I am doing this" or "this is boring". It doesn't need to be articulating words; sometimes it's just a feeling. When you wake up every morning, "with a pit in my stomach that I carry around all day", that's the voice.
Most of the time, when that voice talks, it's wrong. It might say "oh, I'll bet so-and-so hates you". But did you check? Did you ask so-and-so directly? Out loud? Did they tell you to your face?
Or did you implicitly believe the voice?
The way out of the trap that you're in is to notice when the voice is happening. It's happening _all the time_. It's probably made a comment while you were reading this. Did you realize? If, when the voice happens, you immediately assume it's correct, and act as if it's true, you train the voice to say more things.
It's gotten into such a habit that you don't even realize it's happening. It's like biting your nails; your hand moves before you even realize.
CBT is one way of breaking the habit. The most common CBT exercise ("the 3 column technique" or sometimes "catch it, check it, change it") has you write down when that automatic thought or feeling happens. And by doing this, you train your brain to catch the thought before it leads you down a spiral.
Importantly, by writing down the thoughts, you hold the voice in your head accountable. When it says "some terrible thing is going to happen tomorrow", you get to see that, actually, the voice in your head has no idea what is going to happen.
Another way is meditation. Meditation is not a calming exercise. It's a way to practice watching your voice for a period of time. Over time, you build the muscle and train your brain out of the habit of constantly blending with the voice every time it has some demand.
So here's my internet stranger recommendation.
First, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is the "gold-standard" (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5797481/) in the therapy route.
> "(1) CBT is the most researched form of psychotherapy. (2) No other form of psychotherapy has been shown to be systematically superior to CBT; if there are systematic differences between psychotherapies, they typically favor CBT. (3) Moreover, the CBT theoretical models/mechanisms of change have been the most researched and are in line with the current mainstream paradigms of human mind and behavior (e.g., information processing)."
But often when people go to see a "therapist", either they don't do CBT, or the patient or therapist does not realize that all the worksheets and exercises really actually need to be done. CBT is a lot like physical therapy, if you don't do the exercises, you likely won't get better. If you have not tried CBT before, or are not sure, the book "Feeling Good" is the thing to pick up.
Second, to answer your specific question on SSRIs: SSRIs do have side effects. They're not that bad. I was on them for some 6 years. However, I would rather have not have had the side effects, and not taken the drug, in part because SSRIs also didn't make me in particular feel any better. That said, on average, SSRIs do work while you're taking them for most people. SSRIs + CBT at the same time tends to be the most effective combo.
Finally, here's my non-scientific advice from an internet stranger who has been where you are, and is no longer there. Take it as you will.
In your head there's a little voice. It's the one reading this right now! You can make it talk if you want. Here, make it say "purple octopus fiddly pop". See? That's not you. You're the thing _hearing_ that voice.
That voice talks all the time.
When you roll over at night, maybe it says "oh god, maybe I'm going to get fired". Maybe says "oh, I bet I deserve to get fired". Maybe it says "oh gosh, I can't even get this depression under control, and if I don't, everything is gonna collapse". You aren't that voice!
Sometimes it plays a little movie, like the last time an embarrassing moment happened, or what you could have said as a witty come back. When the movie plays, you're not really there, but your body doesn't know that, and so it builds up all physical sensations of emotion.
That voice is a reflex in your head. When someone taps your knee, and your leg kicks into the air, it wasn't you that kicked. It's just a reflex.
Here, I'll prove it to you. Set a timer for 3 minutes and try and not think about anything. Just pick a point on the wall, or maybe watch your breath. I'll bet you can't do it. The moment you try, there's the voice again. Maybe it's saying things like "oh why I am doing this" or "this is boring". It doesn't need to be articulating words; sometimes it's just a feeling. When you wake up every morning, "with a pit in my stomach that I carry around all day", that's the voice.
Most of the time, when that voice talks, it's wrong. It might say "oh, I'll bet so-and-so hates you". But did you check? Did you ask so-and-so directly? Out loud? Did they tell you to your face?
Or did you implicitly believe the voice?
The way out of the trap that you're in is to notice when the voice is happening. It's happening _all the time_. It's probably made a comment while you were reading this. Did you realize? If, when the voice happens, you immediately assume it's correct, and act as if it's true, you train the voice to say more things.
It's gotten into such a habit that you don't even realize it's happening. It's like biting your nails; your hand moves before you even realize.
CBT is one way of breaking the habit. The most common CBT exercise ("the 3 column technique" or sometimes "catch it, check it, change it") has you write down when that automatic thought or feeling happens. And by doing this, you train your brain to catch the thought before it leads you down a spiral.
Importantly, by writing down the thoughts, you hold the voice in your head accountable. When it says "some terrible thing is going to happen tomorrow", you get to see that, actually, the voice in your head has no idea what is going to happen.
Another way is meditation. Meditation is not a calming exercise. It's a way to practice watching your voice for a period of time. Over time, you build the muscle and train your brain out of the habit of constantly blending with the voice every time it has some demand.
This is my story. I hope it helps.
A few years ago now, I went through the most traumatic experience of my life. In a moment, all of my thoughts about how life was, is or was going to be were shattered.
I didn't sleep a full night for about a year following. From that moment on, I was in the grips of the most terrible depression - mixed with anxiety - I've ever faced. I woke up every day feeling that my life was worthless. I wanted it to be over. I cried most days. I was trapped in endless rumination (and I mean endless - nearly all my waking days, and nightmares continued on the same themes). I felt that I may be going insane. I could not imagine how I'd ever move forward. I felt like I was in a hellish 'Groundhog Day', nothing changing. Barely making it through work, through time with my children. I'd cry just thinking of how terrible it was to be this way around my children - that they'd be subjected to a father who couldn't pull himself out of the darkness.
After a few months of agony, I decided to try Zoloft. I couldn't make it past the 3rd day. The anxiety was too much, and I was terrified of what would happen to me on "ssris". Instead, over the ensuing months, I did multiple solo and guided mushroom experiences. I tried MDMA (in therapeutic sessions). I tried Ketamine. I did almost 2 years of therapy. I tried Buproprion (which I remained on, on the lowest dose, at the request of my doctor - despite it having no discernable impact). Countless books, supplements, diet, exercise, sleep. Nothing made the slightest difference. I woke up every day and viscerally felt that I hated my life.
I was terrified to trying SSRIs, because of the fear of sexual side effects, and all of the nightmare stuff I'd read countless sleepless nights reading medication reviews (brain zaps, etc).
Then, a few months ago now - after speaking at length with a friend who suffers from bi-polar, who depends on medication to function (and is grateful it's available) - I made a decision: I was not going to let fear of unknowns decide my future. I decided that, if there was a chance my life might improve - that I might be able to reduce my suffering be even 10% - that it'd be worth it. Not just for me, but for my family.
I decided to commit to trying Zoloft again - this time at the smallest dose available (25 mg). I figured, the worst that could happen is that it wouldn't work, and that I'd stop taking it.
I had no side effects to speak of. Within 3 weeks, I noticed a slight change. I wasn't ruminating as much. I found myself wanting to go out for a walk. I was able to play with my daughter for an hour - and enjoy it. I felt something might be shifting, but I didn't want to "jinx" it.
However, by the 6-8 week mark, it was undeniable. I was laughing again. I was able to sit down and watch a movie, without needing to saturate myself with intense stimuli (ie: competitive video games) just to keep the rumination at bay. I was able to read for pleasure. It was remarkable.
Now, 3 months later, I almost don't remember what I felt like before. While I have moments in each day where the traumatic experience rises up, it just passes. I can let it go. I'm not riddled by anxiety. My therapist is blown away by the change. I actual look forward to my job now. I enjoy things. I have my life back. It feels like a miracle.
I'm still on the smallest dose, have encountered zero side effects, and feel no need to increase.
I would never tell anyone what to do with their life and health. But for 2 years I listened to the fear instilled in me via internet forums, articles, etc - people all demonizing SSRIs. I went through absolute hell.
I wish I'd committed to giving them a shot earlier.
I am so insanely grateful for SSRIs. They have saved my life.
A few years ago now, I went through the most traumatic experience of my life. In a moment, all of my thoughts about how life was, is or was going to be were shattered.
I didn't sleep a full night for about a year following. From that moment on, I was in the grips of the most terrible depression - mixed with anxiety - I've ever faced. I woke up every day feeling that my life was worthless. I wanted it to be over. I cried most days. I was trapped in endless rumination (and I mean endless - nearly all my waking days, and nightmares continued on the same themes). I felt that I may be going insane. I could not imagine how I'd ever move forward. I felt like I was in a hellish 'Groundhog Day', nothing changing. Barely making it through work, through time with my children. I'd cry just thinking of how terrible it was to be this way around my children - that they'd be subjected to a father who couldn't pull himself out of the darkness.
After a few months of agony, I decided to try Zoloft. I couldn't make it past the 3rd day. The anxiety was too much, and I was terrified of what would happen to me on "ssris". Instead, over the ensuing months, I did multiple solo and guided mushroom experiences. I tried MDMA (in therapeutic sessions). I tried Ketamine. I did almost 2 years of therapy. I tried Buproprion (which I remained on, on the lowest dose, at the request of my doctor - despite it having no discernable impact). Countless books, supplements, diet, exercise, sleep. Nothing made the slightest difference. I woke up every day and viscerally felt that I hated my life.
I was terrified to trying SSRIs, because of the fear of sexual side effects, and all of the nightmare stuff I'd read countless sleepless nights reading medication reviews (brain zaps, etc).
Then, a few months ago now - after speaking at length with a friend who suffers from bi-polar, who depends on medication to function (and is grateful it's available) - I made a decision: I was not going to let fear of unknowns decide my future. I decided that, if there was a chance my life might improve - that I might be able to reduce my suffering be even 10% - that it'd be worth it. Not just for me, but for my family.
I decided to commit to trying Zoloft again - this time at the smallest dose available (25 mg). I figured, the worst that could happen is that it wouldn't work, and that I'd stop taking it.
I had no side effects to speak of. Within 3 weeks, I noticed a slight change. I wasn't ruminating as much. I found myself wanting to go out for a walk. I was able to play with my daughter for an hour - and enjoy it. I felt something might be shifting, but I didn't want to "jinx" it.
However, by the 6-8 week mark, it was undeniable. I was laughing again. I was able to sit down and watch a movie, without needing to saturate myself with intense stimuli (ie: competitive video games) just to keep the rumination at bay. I was able to read for pleasure. It was remarkable.
Now, 3 months later, I almost don't remember what I felt like before. While I have moments in each day where the traumatic experience rises up, it just passes. I can let it go. I'm not riddled by anxiety. My therapist is blown away by the change. I actual look forward to my job now. I enjoy things. I have my life back. It feels like a miracle.
I'm still on the smallest dose, have encountered zero side effects, and feel no need to increase.
I would never tell anyone what to do with their life and health. But for 2 years I listened to the fear instilled in me via internet forums, articles, etc - people all demonizing SSRIs. I went through absolute hell.
I wish I'd committed to giving them a shot earlier.
I am so insanely grateful for SSRIs. They have saved my life.
Thank you for your story, I'm glad you are in a better place now.
> without needing to saturate myself with intense stimuli (ie: competitive video games) just to keep the rumination at bay
I can relate to this so much. I have racked up countless hours (literal thousands...) on competitive games over the last decade or so, mostly as a coping mechanism. I have stopped a bunch of times because I realized even if I was good at these games I didn't actually enjoy them, I just played them because they masked the other things I was feeling.
> without needing to saturate myself with intense stimuli (ie: competitive video games) just to keep the rumination at bay
I can relate to this so much. I have racked up countless hours (literal thousands...) on competitive games over the last decade or so, mostly as a coping mechanism. I have stopped a bunch of times because I realized even if I was good at these games I didn't actually enjoy them, I just played them because they masked the other things I was feeling.
Where are you located? What are the symptoms? Many times, depression is a symptom of a deeper problem, especially if lifelong.
Both are fairly safe, and have no discontunation/withdrawals symptoms. You will be screened if it's appropriate for you, and it will always be administered under medical supervision the entire time. Ketamine is extremely successful, most in nearly instant remission that least at least a week or two, but the effects do not last forever, and most patients require ongoing treatment. At least you may know what it feels like to be not-depressed.
SSRIs are fairly safe in hands of a competent and most importantly caring prescriber. SNRIs however, at least anecdotally, many prescribers no longer use. Look for someone who truly cares and wants to help. Discontiuation is real, but any competent prescriber will know how to taper it, often a compounding pharmacy is used.
You should have any and all thyroid issue ruled out definitively, all nutritional deficiency ruled out, all allergies/intolerances, no matter how seemingly insignificant eliminated. Full in-lab polysomnography and sleep endoscopy should be done to rule out any sleep issues. Actigraphy might be helpful too, if you have a circadian disorder.
The best proven au-naturel anti-depressants is lots of exercise and lots and lots of social interaction. Did they help?
If not, and you have so called endogenous depression, some sort of medication will be more than likely needed, but in such cases SSRIs will be tried and are often found insufficient. You may need MAOIs, most of the time Parnate will be used. It is safe, but it comes with absolute contraindications to a few foods, and requires a dedicated diet (no cheese, and no fermented foods, not that difficult to maintain), and you'd need someone with an experience using this medication, it's a bit of an orphan drug at this point. I'd try ketamine or psilocybin first.
I never heard of anyone with lifelong depression recover with therapy alone, usually a combination of medication+therapy, and very, very often an underlying condition was found too.
What do you mean specifically by "I was able to sleep when I wanted to"? You have profound insomnia? Any serious enough sleep disorder will give you depression, and if sleep is an issue - address that first. Sleep medicine is quite involved, and often if it's something subtle you'd have to travel to get expert advice. Stanford is a pretty good sleep medicine centre, both in respiratory and circadian disorders.
Both are fairly safe, and have no discontunation/withdrawals symptoms. You will be screened if it's appropriate for you, and it will always be administered under medical supervision the entire time. Ketamine is extremely successful, most in nearly instant remission that least at least a week or two, but the effects do not last forever, and most patients require ongoing treatment. At least you may know what it feels like to be not-depressed.
SSRIs are fairly safe in hands of a competent and most importantly caring prescriber. SNRIs however, at least anecdotally, many prescribers no longer use. Look for someone who truly cares and wants to help. Discontiuation is real, but any competent prescriber will know how to taper it, often a compounding pharmacy is used.
You should have any and all thyroid issue ruled out definitively, all nutritional deficiency ruled out, all allergies/intolerances, no matter how seemingly insignificant eliminated. Full in-lab polysomnography and sleep endoscopy should be done to rule out any sleep issues. Actigraphy might be helpful too, if you have a circadian disorder.
The best proven au-naturel anti-depressants is lots of exercise and lots and lots of social interaction. Did they help?
If not, and you have so called endogenous depression, some sort of medication will be more than likely needed, but in such cases SSRIs will be tried and are often found insufficient. You may need MAOIs, most of the time Parnate will be used. It is safe, but it comes with absolute contraindications to a few foods, and requires a dedicated diet (no cheese, and no fermented foods, not that difficult to maintain), and you'd need someone with an experience using this medication, it's a bit of an orphan drug at this point. I'd try ketamine or psilocybin first.
I never heard of anyone with lifelong depression recover with therapy alone, usually a combination of medication+therapy, and very, very often an underlying condition was found too.
> For these reasons I am completely shit-scared of them
You should. This is very powerful stuff & most doctors can’t understand the danger.
Avoid at all costs. Search for other solutions like your life depends on it.
You should. This is very powerful stuff & most doctors can’t understand the danger.
Avoid at all costs. Search for other solutions like your life depends on it.
Simple experiment:
Eat raw foods (veggies + fruits) only for 21 days
Then decide.
Eat raw foods (veggies + fruits) only for 21 days
Then decide.
Antidepressants are palliative and psychiatrists are not incentivised to help you. They're incentivised to keep you coming back.
Also remember psychiatrists often have crushing medical school debt into their 40s. Think about that.
Before you take meds please read this https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/05/22/the-apa-meeting-a-phot...
Also remember psychiatrists often have crushing medical school debt into their 40s. Think about that.
Before you take meds please read this https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/05/22/the-apa-meeting-a-phot...
I don't think asking hn for medical advice is a great idea. Find a qualifed doctor please. Every case is unique! It can be really hard to find a good therapist. I went through like 5 before I found one. The key was finding a therapist that actually specialized in CBT (a lot of them say they so and they are just lying).
Obviously, this goes without saying, but please do what you need to; don't put yourself into a corner by anything said by anyone. I'm just giving my experience as i think it is a positive one.
I have enjoyed depression (quite severe is an understatement) for about 14 years now. I'm 26, so that's a little over half of my life which has been interesting. It came about from some abuse here and there, some neglect there, and a lot of desperation as i had no support structures.
Never used SSRIs or any anti-depressants, never got therapy; currently a smoker and a recovered alcoholic. Alcoholism was one of the most destructive and damaging things I have ever done, it is why i smoke as it's deeply damaged my body and mind, it took years from me, i feel twice as old as i am and there doesn't seem to be anything i can do other than try to smoke less and take better care of my body, though i feel both physical pain and emotional turbulence every day.
I currently, at this point in my life, realize that while I may not be able to ever be cured, but i can improve my condition, one day at a time. I think life is beautiful and I think that while my illness is crippling at times, i try to remember to hang onto what is beautiful. When i start spiraling i have trained myself to listen to music i find calming, to move myself outside (i'll often lay in the grass just breathing in the smells and looking into the sky, it helps when you distract yourself from the pain). I'm dedicated enough to it at this point that even if i can't get out of bed, i will crawl just to get that fresh air, to see the beauty around me.
Another thing i would encourage, i doubt it's a popular opinion but i do care, and this is what works for me. Stay away from pr0n if you view it; i find that when i stay away from it I can feel spasms of genuine happiness as it's almost like by not scheduling my daily, or every-other-day, dopamine rush... even WITHIN a week i will feel more energy to achieve that reward through making music or exercising.. or even just an embrace from someone i love. It all means so much more when i'm not scheduling that dopamine hit, it's like I HAVE TO DO SOMETHING! :) Anytime i slip back into it i find myself loosing ground. I'm just saying, if this is something you do, try it; you might find you feel better.
But most importantly, whether you listen or not, or try anything i'm suggesting; you need to remember that you are not alone, and even when you are at your lowest that you can imagine, you are never too far gone to reach out and ask for help. And don't push yourself past your means, the worst thing you can do is take anyone's advice and hurt yourself in the process, ease into something, don't go full hog, you know?
Another thing i noticed is that you said you find that nothing solves the problem permanently. I can say for me personally that i don't think i can solve it permanently, however i stopped fighting for perfection and just had to learn to try to improve how i think about things. Once i learned a healthy way to not just cope, but to actually live (not just survive) with it, it started to become more like background noise, even though it still affects me daily, it seems easier. I do more, a lot more than i ever imagined, but i'm always tired, though it's worth it.
It might sound a little strange, but as someone who has suffered from chronic depression since i was young, suicidal for the first 10 but now i'm (finally) safe, I've stopped treating it as something i have to "fix" and more like something i learn to treat in my own way.
I'm now an insomniac who works ridiculous hours (at a great job), i have a nice car, i love my music, and i guess has finally learned that even though it's not optimal, it's the best i can do with what i've been given. I think it's wonderful that you are still being a functional member of a team; try to appreciate those achievements, people appreciate your hard work.
There are still many days that i find myself not being able to get out of bed for hours, so i set the alarm to wake me up earlier. There are days i don't want to see people, so i work myself up to go see my friends. I've learned to ignore my own emotions to some extent and just push, but not TOO HARD. Know your limits, know what is "uncomfortable" vs. "destructive" to your mental health.
This is just me, that's just what works for me. I'm an expert in the depression experience, nothing else, and there are those around me who have better ideas i'm sure.
I hope something i said can be of some use. Best of luck to you.
I have enjoyed depression (quite severe is an understatement) for about 14 years now. I'm 26, so that's a little over half of my life which has been interesting. It came about from some abuse here and there, some neglect there, and a lot of desperation as i had no support structures.
Never used SSRIs or any anti-depressants, never got therapy; currently a smoker and a recovered alcoholic. Alcoholism was one of the most destructive and damaging things I have ever done, it is why i smoke as it's deeply damaged my body and mind, it took years from me, i feel twice as old as i am and there doesn't seem to be anything i can do other than try to smoke less and take better care of my body, though i feel both physical pain and emotional turbulence every day.
I currently, at this point in my life, realize that while I may not be able to ever be cured, but i can improve my condition, one day at a time. I think life is beautiful and I think that while my illness is crippling at times, i try to remember to hang onto what is beautiful. When i start spiraling i have trained myself to listen to music i find calming, to move myself outside (i'll often lay in the grass just breathing in the smells and looking into the sky, it helps when you distract yourself from the pain). I'm dedicated enough to it at this point that even if i can't get out of bed, i will crawl just to get that fresh air, to see the beauty around me.
Another thing i would encourage, i doubt it's a popular opinion but i do care, and this is what works for me. Stay away from pr0n if you view it; i find that when i stay away from it I can feel spasms of genuine happiness as it's almost like by not scheduling my daily, or every-other-day, dopamine rush... even WITHIN a week i will feel more energy to achieve that reward through making music or exercising.. or even just an embrace from someone i love. It all means so much more when i'm not scheduling that dopamine hit, it's like I HAVE TO DO SOMETHING! :) Anytime i slip back into it i find myself loosing ground. I'm just saying, if this is something you do, try it; you might find you feel better.
But most importantly, whether you listen or not, or try anything i'm suggesting; you need to remember that you are not alone, and even when you are at your lowest that you can imagine, you are never too far gone to reach out and ask for help. And don't push yourself past your means, the worst thing you can do is take anyone's advice and hurt yourself in the process, ease into something, don't go full hog, you know?
Another thing i noticed is that you said you find that nothing solves the problem permanently. I can say for me personally that i don't think i can solve it permanently, however i stopped fighting for perfection and just had to learn to try to improve how i think about things. Once i learned a healthy way to not just cope, but to actually live (not just survive) with it, it started to become more like background noise, even though it still affects me daily, it seems easier. I do more, a lot more than i ever imagined, but i'm always tired, though it's worth it.
It might sound a little strange, but as someone who has suffered from chronic depression since i was young, suicidal for the first 10 but now i'm (finally) safe, I've stopped treating it as something i have to "fix" and more like something i learn to treat in my own way.
I'm now an insomniac who works ridiculous hours (at a great job), i have a nice car, i love my music, and i guess has finally learned that even though it's not optimal, it's the best i can do with what i've been given. I think it's wonderful that you are still being a functional member of a team; try to appreciate those achievements, people appreciate your hard work.
There are still many days that i find myself not being able to get out of bed for hours, so i set the alarm to wake me up earlier. There are days i don't want to see people, so i work myself up to go see my friends. I've learned to ignore my own emotions to some extent and just push, but not TOO HARD. Know your limits, know what is "uncomfortable" vs. "destructive" to your mental health.
This is just me, that's just what works for me. I'm an expert in the depression experience, nothing else, and there are those around me who have better ideas i'm sure.
I hope something i said can be of some use. Best of luck to you.
First off, I'm sorry you are in pain OP. I hope you can find some help by asking this question.
Back pain is fascinating. Rarely, there is an immediate and obvious cause and obvious treatment that will work, wham bam, lickety split. Far more often, there isn't.
Intense pain starts in your spine. So you go see a doctor. Doctor says, "Here is some Vicodin, take this and rest up." Fixed!
Nope. It helps for a while, but you still have pain. This happens to the vast majority of people with back pain. It's the normal doctor first step.
So you go see a back surgeon. How do surgeons fix things? With surgery. So the surgeon does an MRI, finds a herniation (which is, after all, a source of pain!), and performs surgery and cleans out the herniation. Fixed!
(Mostly) wrong. A small — something like 30% — percentage of people find relief. The remaining people continue to have pain. They also now have a lengthy recovery, ~$10,000 less dollars, and a growing hopelessness. (These aren't fake examples, feel free to look them up or ask a doctor friend.)
These options seems to be attractive because they fit the standard Western model of disease, and also of care. Our (Western) minds tend to like this model and expect that it works. Diagnose obvious thing, do seemingly normal surgery or just take this pill, problem solved. Except not.
Had the back pain person asked an orthopedist, the orthopedist might have prescribed conservative care. Chiropractic, physical therapy, Pilates, yoga, strength training, massage, ice, heat, anti-inflammatories, etc. A surprisingly larger number of people find relief from that.
However, this approach is more annoying. It takes time and effort. It admits that maybe we don't know the exact cause, but maybe here are some things that work for a lot of people. With enough effort and time, they might work, slowly.
Had they seen a somatic or functional practitioner, the practitioner might have started looking at what else is going on with the person. What kind of psychological trauma might they have in their past? What is their desk setup? How stressful is their job? What is their diet like? What is the connection between the patient's mind and their body, and how does that relate to pain? They would then prescribe a course of treatment that might be modifications to lifestyle, healing trauma, etc.
Depression is very similar to back pain. It is complex, and is a mind-body problem. You may have an immediately obvious cause and thus an immediately obvious solution. And even then, that first solution has a fairly good chance of not working.
Moreover, you can predict with a fairly high degree of accuracy the solution you are going to be prescribed based on who you ask. Ask a general doctor or a psychiatrist, either get a pill or a referral to a talk therapist. Ask a talk therapist, get a lot of talk sessions. Ask an Eastern medicine practitioner, get some herbs, a change in diet, and acupuncture. Ask a shaman, get ayahuasca. Etc.
Depression happens for a whole bunch of reasons. What works for one person almost certainly won't work for the immediate next one, at least entirely. It often has to be addressed by looking at the individual as a whole and unique person, and using a multi-pronged mind-body approach.
If you have tried most of the normal stuff, then it's time for some not normal stuff. You have to be your own advocate in this, and keep track of what has worked and what hasn't, and move on when you have exhausted your options. I know that can be hard in the midst of severe depression, but at the end of the day it is really the only option. If what you are doing isn't working, don't just keep doing it. Find another competent professional, do your research, have your conversations, take a leap of faith if necessary, and try something new.
Again, I really hope you find healing, OP. Whatever it is that atheists do instead of praying, I'm doing that for you.
Back pain is fascinating. Rarely, there is an immediate and obvious cause and obvious treatment that will work, wham bam, lickety split. Far more often, there isn't.
Intense pain starts in your spine. So you go see a doctor. Doctor says, "Here is some Vicodin, take this and rest up." Fixed!
Nope. It helps for a while, but you still have pain. This happens to the vast majority of people with back pain. It's the normal doctor first step.
So you go see a back surgeon. How do surgeons fix things? With surgery. So the surgeon does an MRI, finds a herniation (which is, after all, a source of pain!), and performs surgery and cleans out the herniation. Fixed!
(Mostly) wrong. A small — something like 30% — percentage of people find relief. The remaining people continue to have pain. They also now have a lengthy recovery, ~$10,000 less dollars, and a growing hopelessness. (These aren't fake examples, feel free to look them up or ask a doctor friend.)
These options seems to be attractive because they fit the standard Western model of disease, and also of care. Our (Western) minds tend to like this model and expect that it works. Diagnose obvious thing, do seemingly normal surgery or just take this pill, problem solved. Except not.
Had the back pain person asked an orthopedist, the orthopedist might have prescribed conservative care. Chiropractic, physical therapy, Pilates, yoga, strength training, massage, ice, heat, anti-inflammatories, etc. A surprisingly larger number of people find relief from that.
However, this approach is more annoying. It takes time and effort. It admits that maybe we don't know the exact cause, but maybe here are some things that work for a lot of people. With enough effort and time, they might work, slowly.
Had they seen a somatic or functional practitioner, the practitioner might have started looking at what else is going on with the person. What kind of psychological trauma might they have in their past? What is their desk setup? How stressful is their job? What is their diet like? What is the connection between the patient's mind and their body, and how does that relate to pain? They would then prescribe a course of treatment that might be modifications to lifestyle, healing trauma, etc.
Depression is very similar to back pain. It is complex, and is a mind-body problem. You may have an immediately obvious cause and thus an immediately obvious solution. And even then, that first solution has a fairly good chance of not working.
Moreover, you can predict with a fairly high degree of accuracy the solution you are going to be prescribed based on who you ask. Ask a general doctor or a psychiatrist, either get a pill or a referral to a talk therapist. Ask a talk therapist, get a lot of talk sessions. Ask an Eastern medicine practitioner, get some herbs, a change in diet, and acupuncture. Ask a shaman, get ayahuasca. Etc.
Depression happens for a whole bunch of reasons. What works for one person almost certainly won't work for the immediate next one, at least entirely. It often has to be addressed by looking at the individual as a whole and unique person, and using a multi-pronged mind-body approach.
If you have tried most of the normal stuff, then it's time for some not normal stuff. You have to be your own advocate in this, and keep track of what has worked and what hasn't, and move on when you have exhausted your options. I know that can be hard in the midst of severe depression, but at the end of the day it is really the only option. If what you are doing isn't working, don't just keep doing it. Find another competent professional, do your research, have your conversations, take a leap of faith if necessary, and try something new.
Again, I really hope you find healing, OP. Whatever it is that atheists do instead of praying, I'm doing that for you.
Source: Years of depression, complex trauma work and effects, and suicidality + making a turn around the bend several years in.
To speak to your drug question, SSRIs are first line treatments that have a lower success rate but are moderately successful. I recommend talking to a doctor and starting on _an_ antidepressant earlier rather than later. This way if you're antidepressant resistant you can go for a treatment modality that's exceptionally effective -- Ketamine infusions. Expensive but if you're able to extend at home supervised with troches/nasal and follow the rules you should be fine. ~70% for IV Ketamine and ~60% for esketamine nasal treatment, in terms of success rates.
There are many atypical antidepressants that are hard hitting. You can get creative with the dopamine system. Fisher Wallace and other brain stim devices are out there. Barring all that, deep brain implants and ECS (ecs is not too terrible I've heard compared to what it seems) are options. If much fails you might be able to access psychedelics through right-to-try laws or in a locally legal state.
You'll need therapy as well. It will probably take you 4-5+ therapists to find one you click with. If you plateau for a few months then move on to a new therapist, but try to find one with a goal of staying for a few years.
I say this as the person who would be near the tip of the most resistant category. We have Dissociative Identity Disorder (officially diagnosed), which is one step beyond complex PTSD, as well as both subclinical NPD and diagnosed Borderline Personality Disorder. BPD sucks like nothing else.
Obviously these make a huge impact in our day to day life but we've been able to crawl out of the hole and are well on our way to rebuilding friendships, relationships, and a relatively content life, just with a good foundation this time. I still have a few years left but am so much different. Ketamine helped me so much, as well as personal value reshaping.
If it helps -- the similarity between morbid depression and the most enlightened person on earth is the knowledge that nothing truly matters and that there is no meaning in anything. The difference is that the enlightened person has let go of putting value in finding the meaning of anything.
Integrating the above paragraph has probably done the most overall in relieving the pain and symptoms of my cluster B disorders.
If you want a good workbook I know several, Janina Fisher's "Healing the Fragmented Selves of Trauma Survivors" is generally excellent.
One hard thing is for people like you and me who have been in pain for a long time, our brain does this beautiful thing to try to reconcile it by finding meaning in pain. Unfortunately that shapes our identity and makes a fixed global attractor around pain -- i.e. we can run from it, but our identity always wins out against our actions. The endless hill always wins out against the man pushing the stone.
You can do all the work you want to heal but if you do not let go of finding meaning or value in pain, or being hurt, or whatever collection of meaning-making beliefs you have, the hill will be there and thwart your efforts.
Even positive feelings like "love" as a core value can cause pain, this is because the world contradicts and clashes with it. Dysphoria is not just for gender issues, it is for all identities. And dysphoria is stronger than pain aversion, hence why some people like you and I seem "permanently broken". But it's all an illusion.
If you've had a spiritual awakening moment at any point, "The End of Suffering" by Adyashanti is really, really good. If you haven't feel free to read but it may feel like hippie dippie nonsense.
If you're looking for something to find a compass of where you should move emotionally when you're stuck, whenever you're despairing if you commit to reminding yourself that you're no longer a person who needs meaning to live, something will move or hurt. Keep repeating that to yourself whenever you get stuck and it'll give you a good GPS direction on where to go next.
But if you're super deep in the depressive slump, just survive. Your mind is your worst enemy right now, it will lie to you and limit your options. Just keep going. Even if in the worst case the above is a bad roadmap (I certainly don't believe it is a bad roadmap), at least it's a roadmap. I'm six, almost seven, years into what feels like a near full time journey trying to survive what has felt like hell on earth, and I'm well past the worst point. The reason I'm so detailed is probably because when I was alone and crying out to God for help that I wish someone reached out to me. So I think it's to amend for my own past hurts on that front.
Much love and we're happy to answer any questions.
T,S&company.
To speak to your drug question, SSRIs are first line treatments that have a lower success rate but are moderately successful. I recommend talking to a doctor and starting on _an_ antidepressant earlier rather than later. This way if you're antidepressant resistant you can go for a treatment modality that's exceptionally effective -- Ketamine infusions. Expensive but if you're able to extend at home supervised with troches/nasal and follow the rules you should be fine. ~70% for IV Ketamine and ~60% for esketamine nasal treatment, in terms of success rates.
There are many atypical antidepressants that are hard hitting. You can get creative with the dopamine system. Fisher Wallace and other brain stim devices are out there. Barring all that, deep brain implants and ECS (ecs is not too terrible I've heard compared to what it seems) are options. If much fails you might be able to access psychedelics through right-to-try laws or in a locally legal state.
You'll need therapy as well. It will probably take you 4-5+ therapists to find one you click with. If you plateau for a few months then move on to a new therapist, but try to find one with a goal of staying for a few years.
I say this as the person who would be near the tip of the most resistant category. We have Dissociative Identity Disorder (officially diagnosed), which is one step beyond complex PTSD, as well as both subclinical NPD and diagnosed Borderline Personality Disorder. BPD sucks like nothing else.
Obviously these make a huge impact in our day to day life but we've been able to crawl out of the hole and are well on our way to rebuilding friendships, relationships, and a relatively content life, just with a good foundation this time. I still have a few years left but am so much different. Ketamine helped me so much, as well as personal value reshaping.
If it helps -- the similarity between morbid depression and the most enlightened person on earth is the knowledge that nothing truly matters and that there is no meaning in anything. The difference is that the enlightened person has let go of putting value in finding the meaning of anything.
Integrating the above paragraph has probably done the most overall in relieving the pain and symptoms of my cluster B disorders.
If you want a good workbook I know several, Janina Fisher's "Healing the Fragmented Selves of Trauma Survivors" is generally excellent.
One hard thing is for people like you and me who have been in pain for a long time, our brain does this beautiful thing to try to reconcile it by finding meaning in pain. Unfortunately that shapes our identity and makes a fixed global attractor around pain -- i.e. we can run from it, but our identity always wins out against our actions. The endless hill always wins out against the man pushing the stone.
You can do all the work you want to heal but if you do not let go of finding meaning or value in pain, or being hurt, or whatever collection of meaning-making beliefs you have, the hill will be there and thwart your efforts.
Even positive feelings like "love" as a core value can cause pain, this is because the world contradicts and clashes with it. Dysphoria is not just for gender issues, it is for all identities. And dysphoria is stronger than pain aversion, hence why some people like you and I seem "permanently broken". But it's all an illusion.
If you've had a spiritual awakening moment at any point, "The End of Suffering" by Adyashanti is really, really good. If you haven't feel free to read but it may feel like hippie dippie nonsense.
If you're looking for something to find a compass of where you should move emotionally when you're stuck, whenever you're despairing if you commit to reminding yourself that you're no longer a person who needs meaning to live, something will move or hurt. Keep repeating that to yourself whenever you get stuck and it'll give you a good GPS direction on where to go next.
But if you're super deep in the depressive slump, just survive. Your mind is your worst enemy right now, it will lie to you and limit your options. Just keep going. Even if in the worst case the above is a bad roadmap (I certainly don't believe it is a bad roadmap), at least it's a roadmap. I'm six, almost seven, years into what feels like a near full time journey trying to survive what has felt like hell on earth, and I'm well past the worst point. The reason I'm so detailed is probably because when I was alone and crying out to God for help that I wish someone reached out to me. So I think it's to amend for my own past hurts on that front.
Much love and we're happy to answer any questions.
T,S&company.
Serotonin reuptake inhibitors are as good as placebo against major depression and, as you have noted, unsafe to use for longer periods. Some people find the emotional blunting effect of these drugs helpful while waiting for the depression to pass, but this merely suppresses one of the less disabling symptoms and does not counteract the condition. SSRIs are not anti-depressants.
Major depression recurred frequently for most of my life and I was suicidal in my 30s. I asked every physician and health professional I could find for advice and was willing to try just about any therapy or treatment. None of them were helpful in the slightest and after a particularly frustrating experience with a useless, hostile, and expensive psychiatrist I gave up on getting any assistance from the health industry.
Since no one was willing to help I needed to figure this out for myself. I read everything I could find about depression that was not overtly pseudoscientific or superstitious, including hundreds of anti-depressant drug trials of wildly varying quality and power. The breakthrough was realizing that major depression is not a disease or "mental illness"; it is in fact adaptive behaviour shared by all mammals which has become maladaptive in humans due to our modern environments and societal interactions being so far removed from the ones our species evolved in.
Mammals cannot prosper under chronically stressful conditions, e.g. many predators or much stronger rivals in our local environment. Chronic stress from such fears and concerns is what triggers the depression, which alters our behaviour primarily by suppressing dopaminergic pathways. This shuts down normal motivated behaviour like the drive to explore our environment or find a mate and makes us stay at home where we feel safest, recuperating as if sick or injured. This is adaptive because it takes the mammal away from the sources of stress. With environmental stress sources gone the depression will slowly pass, and after a while the mammal is ready to leave its nest, making another attempt at living in its natural environment.
Depression has become maladaptive in modern humans because many of our sources of stress are abstract and long-term concerns that cannot be evaded by staying at home in bed: we worry about losing our source of employment, armed conflicts in neighbouring countries, global warming, and how our stock portfolio is doing. Many human disorders (e.g. anxiety) also predispose us to chronic stress and therefore depression. In my case the root cause turned out to be undiagnosed autism spectrum disorder. I can now manage my depression quite well, but I have had to make large sacrifices – like avoiding most normal social interaction – to achieve this.
You may be able to find the solutions you seek if you can learn the reasons why you are depressed.
Major depression recurred frequently for most of my life and I was suicidal in my 30s. I asked every physician and health professional I could find for advice and was willing to try just about any therapy or treatment. None of them were helpful in the slightest and after a particularly frustrating experience with a useless, hostile, and expensive psychiatrist I gave up on getting any assistance from the health industry.
Since no one was willing to help I needed to figure this out for myself. I read everything I could find about depression that was not overtly pseudoscientific or superstitious, including hundreds of anti-depressant drug trials of wildly varying quality and power. The breakthrough was realizing that major depression is not a disease or "mental illness"; it is in fact adaptive behaviour shared by all mammals which has become maladaptive in humans due to our modern environments and societal interactions being so far removed from the ones our species evolved in.
Mammals cannot prosper under chronically stressful conditions, e.g. many predators or much stronger rivals in our local environment. Chronic stress from such fears and concerns is what triggers the depression, which alters our behaviour primarily by suppressing dopaminergic pathways. This shuts down normal motivated behaviour like the drive to explore our environment or find a mate and makes us stay at home where we feel safest, recuperating as if sick or injured. This is adaptive because it takes the mammal away from the sources of stress. With environmental stress sources gone the depression will slowly pass, and after a while the mammal is ready to leave its nest, making another attempt at living in its natural environment.
Depression has become maladaptive in modern humans because many of our sources of stress are abstract and long-term concerns that cannot be evaded by staying at home in bed: we worry about losing our source of employment, armed conflicts in neighbouring countries, global warming, and how our stock portfolio is doing. Many human disorders (e.g. anxiety) also predispose us to chronic stress and therefore depression. In my case the root cause turned out to be undiagnosed autism spectrum disorder. I can now manage my depression quite well, but I have had to make large sacrifices – like avoiding most normal social interaction – to achieve this.
You may be able to find the solutions you seek if you can learn the reasons why you are depressed.
I had severe clinical depression in my early 30s, so this comes from experience and is nuanced and effective.
The depression was so bad it profoundly effected my vocabulary and cognitive function.
We're talking a 20 point drop in IQ. I was so deep in the well I no longer had depression but depression had me. I was fortunate to be going to a therapist at the time who recommended I go on anti-depressants and I agreed but I made a deal with him first.
The starting dose he was going to prescribe was something I saw had similar impact to vigorous exercise so I asked if I could try biking every day for the next 4 weeks and if I wasn't better I would start taking anti-depressants.
Because my fathers depression severely negatively and permanently impacted my life I had a pathological talisman to always get out of bed everyday.
I rode a bike every day in the Texas 100 degree heat, a minimum of 16 miles and usually 20, I would drink over a gallon of water on each ride.
I would sing songs from my childhood and pray out loud (I was ~religous at the time) as I rode and talked to myself and about what was happening in my life almost the whole time... while absolutely flogging myself on the bike every day.
There was no affect the first week, no lifting of depression.
On the 8th day I had ~one hour where my mind seemed normal before the veil dropped again.
By the time I went back to the therapist I was myself for all but an hour a day.
If you cannot do such extreme exercise you MUST go on medication (you should almost definitely go on medication, it's nothing to be scared of, many people are on them only short term), regardless you should see a therapist and follow their advice, you must talk through how you got to your current situation and take practical, physical steps to alter your environment. If you try exercise you must make a time gated deal with your therapist then hold yourself strictly to it.
Medication need not be permanent, if you are inside of depression you must get a mental toe hold out through any means necessary so your operating mindset isn't coming from helplessness and emotional poverty.
In addition to medication I would also practice the entire list below:
Non Pharmacological Cognitive Enhancers – Current Perspectives https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4573018/
The one caution I have with medication is that in almost all cases it must accompany working/talking through underlying issues with an engaged therapist, otherwise you're cutting your gains way short. Depression in individuals without clear disorders is like anger, your body and mind are telling you that practical things must change.
The depression was so bad it profoundly effected my vocabulary and cognitive function.
We're talking a 20 point drop in IQ. I was so deep in the well I no longer had depression but depression had me. I was fortunate to be going to a therapist at the time who recommended I go on anti-depressants and I agreed but I made a deal with him first.
The starting dose he was going to prescribe was something I saw had similar impact to vigorous exercise so I asked if I could try biking every day for the next 4 weeks and if I wasn't better I would start taking anti-depressants.
Because my fathers depression severely negatively and permanently impacted my life I had a pathological talisman to always get out of bed everyday.
I rode a bike every day in the Texas 100 degree heat, a minimum of 16 miles and usually 20, I would drink over a gallon of water on each ride.
I would sing songs from my childhood and pray out loud (I was ~religous at the time) as I rode and talked to myself and about what was happening in my life almost the whole time... while absolutely flogging myself on the bike every day.
There was no affect the first week, no lifting of depression.
On the 8th day I had ~one hour where my mind seemed normal before the veil dropped again.
By the time I went back to the therapist I was myself for all but an hour a day.
If you cannot do such extreme exercise you MUST go on medication (you should almost definitely go on medication, it's nothing to be scared of, many people are on them only short term), regardless you should see a therapist and follow their advice, you must talk through how you got to your current situation and take practical, physical steps to alter your environment. If you try exercise you must make a time gated deal with your therapist then hold yourself strictly to it.
Medication need not be permanent, if you are inside of depression you must get a mental toe hold out through any means necessary so your operating mindset isn't coming from helplessness and emotional poverty.
In addition to medication I would also practice the entire list below:
Non Pharmacological Cognitive Enhancers – Current Perspectives https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4573018/
The one caution I have with medication is that in almost all cases it must accompany working/talking through underlying issues with an engaged therapist, otherwise you're cutting your gains way short. Depression in individuals without clear disorders is like anger, your body and mind are telling you that practical things must change.
Psilocybin mushrooms.
Depression is the problem of the ego.
Once you realize it is not real, neither is depression.
Depression is the problem of the ego.
Once you realize it is not real, neither is depression.
[deleted]
Co-founder of a mental health group practice here. There is so much to unpack in this question and with all of the comments below. I will do my best. Disclaimer, we are a cognitive behavioral therapy "shop" and not medical doctors who prescribe medication. We do, however, specialize in the treatment of anxiety and depression. Also, I am not a licensed professional and am not giving any advice. I just employ the professionals that do.
Medication obviously has a place in the treatment of mental health disorders, but if you, for example, are in a toxic relationship with a spouse, parent or child, have experienced death of a loved one, are suffering from drug or sex addiction, an eating disorder, suicidal ideation, or are in an emotionally or physically abusive home environment, then meds are just going to treat your symptoms and not help you change the circumstances of your life that are causing your condition.
> Life has taken me on ups and downs but as far as I can can tell I'm fairly lucky, well-off and have every reason to be happy.
Details really matter here. You can have every good thing in the world, but it only takes one instance of trauma, grief or loss to harm your long-term mental health.
> I usually end up using all my effort just to be a functional member of my team at work.
A person's life is much more than just their work. If all of one's energy goes into work, it's likely that their personal life is suffering as a result and thus either causing or exacerbating the underlying condition.
> I wake up with a pit in my stomach that I carry around all day and no matter how hard I try I just can't shake it.
This can be a symptom of anxiety. You cannot make it go away by force of will. There are medications that reduce feelings of anxiety, but if the cause is that you're worried about losing your job, getting sick, being left by your partner, etc. then medications will not help resolve those problems, though they may make them more tolerable.
> I have tried therapy, I have tried all sorts of coping mechanisms but nothing solves the problem permanently.
This sounds like a cognitive distortion. Details really, really matter here. One of the challenges in scaling the therapeutic treatment of mental illness is that a great deal of the efficacy of therapy depends on a person's willingness to actively engage with the circumstances of their life that are causing their condition as well as the therapists ability to effectively communicate and guide a patient to a state of mental well-being. Learning to cope with a problem is different than solving a problem.
For example, if you have a toxic parent, you can try to cope with that toxicity, try to communicate how you're being harmed by the toxicity and hope your parent responds positively, or cut off all communication with that parent. Sometimes the painful decision is the right one for your mental health. Are you willing to take that step? Could you find a therapist to even make the suggestion?
Many therapists, I venture to guess, would not make that suggestion but believe it to be the right one (as it sometimes is). Making that kind of honest, practical and effective guidance widely available is hard because the "industry" is trained to refrain from expressing personal opinions and unfortunately oriented in a much more passive fashion; partly due to concerns over liability and partly because the personality types attracted to the field are generally not assertive and direct.
> So HN, what has your experience been with depression? Have you tried the drugs? What worked or didn't? Have you been able to triumph without chemical assistance and what did that look like? Is my utter terror of these drugs warranted or should I just bite the bullet and try them?
DO NOT ask the internet to tell you which medications to take. If you are jaded by the field of psychiatry, then start with your primary care physician who can also prescribe those same medications, evaluate you for depression and anxiety, and ask them for a referral to a mental health professional that specializes in cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). Different states have different titles and licenses for these professionals, but if you are in the state of California, some titles and licenses to look for are the following:
- Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) - Licensed Master Social Worker (LMSW) - Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW) - Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor (LPCC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_therapy
Medication obviously has a place in the treatment of mental health disorders, but if you, for example, are in a toxic relationship with a spouse, parent or child, have experienced death of a loved one, are suffering from drug or sex addiction, an eating disorder, suicidal ideation, or are in an emotionally or physically abusive home environment, then meds are just going to treat your symptoms and not help you change the circumstances of your life that are causing your condition.
> Life has taken me on ups and downs but as far as I can can tell I'm fairly lucky, well-off and have every reason to be happy.
Details really matter here. You can have every good thing in the world, but it only takes one instance of trauma, grief or loss to harm your long-term mental health.
> I usually end up using all my effort just to be a functional member of my team at work.
A person's life is much more than just their work. If all of one's energy goes into work, it's likely that their personal life is suffering as a result and thus either causing or exacerbating the underlying condition.
> I wake up with a pit in my stomach that I carry around all day and no matter how hard I try I just can't shake it.
This can be a symptom of anxiety. You cannot make it go away by force of will. There are medications that reduce feelings of anxiety, but if the cause is that you're worried about losing your job, getting sick, being left by your partner, etc. then medications will not help resolve those problems, though they may make them more tolerable.
> I have tried therapy, I have tried all sorts of coping mechanisms but nothing solves the problem permanently.
This sounds like a cognitive distortion. Details really, really matter here. One of the challenges in scaling the therapeutic treatment of mental illness is that a great deal of the efficacy of therapy depends on a person's willingness to actively engage with the circumstances of their life that are causing their condition as well as the therapists ability to effectively communicate and guide a patient to a state of mental well-being. Learning to cope with a problem is different than solving a problem.
For example, if you have a toxic parent, you can try to cope with that toxicity, try to communicate how you're being harmed by the toxicity and hope your parent responds positively, or cut off all communication with that parent. Sometimes the painful decision is the right one for your mental health. Are you willing to take that step? Could you find a therapist to even make the suggestion?
Many therapists, I venture to guess, would not make that suggestion but believe it to be the right one (as it sometimes is). Making that kind of honest, practical and effective guidance widely available is hard because the "industry" is trained to refrain from expressing personal opinions and unfortunately oriented in a much more passive fashion; partly due to concerns over liability and partly because the personality types attracted to the field are generally not assertive and direct.
> So HN, what has your experience been with depression? Have you tried the drugs? What worked or didn't? Have you been able to triumph without chemical assistance and what did that look like? Is my utter terror of these drugs warranted or should I just bite the bullet and try them?
DO NOT ask the internet to tell you which medications to take. If you are jaded by the field of psychiatry, then start with your primary care physician who can also prescribe those same medications, evaluate you for depression and anxiety, and ask them for a referral to a mental health professional that specializes in cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). Different states have different titles and licenses for these professionals, but if you are in the state of California, some titles and licenses to look for are the following:
- Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) - Licensed Master Social Worker (LMSW) - Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW) - Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor (LPCC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_therapy
It’s good that you’re asking. Start there! Many people struggle with mental illness in silence, or find themselves uncomfortable with facing the topic directly. This is already progress.
I agree with other comments that you should have this conversation with at least one doctor. But understanding other people’s experiences can be important, and can also make the prospect of going further less terrifying.
So I’ll share mine, though they’re limited. I’ve only been prescribed one antidepressant, trazodone, which is an SARI not an SSRI. It wasn’t prescribed directly to treat depression, though I was seeking relief from depression at the time. It was prescribed to help me sleep, which it did for a time.
This was during a really severe mental health crisis, and I was also plagued by severe anxiety. I probably would have continued to explore antidepressants, had I not found the root cause in my own case was undiagnosed/untreated ADHD.
My experience with trazodone was short, so please don’t take it as more than one small anecdatum. But it was:
1. Extraordinarily helpful when I needed it most. It did exactly what I needed it for.
2. Wasn’t particularly helpful as other contributing factors eased. I had other steps to take to work on improving my mental health further. But I was more capable of approaching them.
3. Did not have, for me, serious side effects. It just became less effective.
4. Wasn’t hard, for me, to stop taking safely. I don’t know if this would have been appreciably different if I’d taken it longer but I assume it would have.
This is, in my opinion, a success story! It’s probably not a representative one though. And this is where my anecdata gets more speculative, so please take this with a grain of salt: I know a lot of people who have psychiatric experiences which span a wide range. I know people who have experienced the “utter terror” of meds that didn’t work for them. I’ve heard and read similar experiences from people less close to me.
Of those people close to me who went off meds, they almost universally had worse experiences and outcomes. Almost everyone I know who’s had unpleasant experience with antidepressants stuck with it, and found something that works at least for a while until an adjustment was needed.
Reiterating, I am not a doctor. Just relaying my experience and what I can relay from people in my community. The biggest hurdle is the one you already leapt: facing this. The next biggest hurdle is that antidepressants take a long time to become effective if they will, and a long time to transition off if they’re not helpful. That’s a real hurdle! But with attentive care it should be about the same level of risk as declining treatment. Because attentive care is the more important factor there.
I don’t know what the answer for you should be. I do know that it’s more available to you because you’re asking the question in a well considered way.
I hope this helps.
I agree with other comments that you should have this conversation with at least one doctor. But understanding other people’s experiences can be important, and can also make the prospect of going further less terrifying.
So I’ll share mine, though they’re limited. I’ve only been prescribed one antidepressant, trazodone, which is an SARI not an SSRI. It wasn’t prescribed directly to treat depression, though I was seeking relief from depression at the time. It was prescribed to help me sleep, which it did for a time.
This was during a really severe mental health crisis, and I was also plagued by severe anxiety. I probably would have continued to explore antidepressants, had I not found the root cause in my own case was undiagnosed/untreated ADHD.
My experience with trazodone was short, so please don’t take it as more than one small anecdatum. But it was:
1. Extraordinarily helpful when I needed it most. It did exactly what I needed it for.
2. Wasn’t particularly helpful as other contributing factors eased. I had other steps to take to work on improving my mental health further. But I was more capable of approaching them.
3. Did not have, for me, serious side effects. It just became less effective.
4. Wasn’t hard, for me, to stop taking safely. I don’t know if this would have been appreciably different if I’d taken it longer but I assume it would have.
This is, in my opinion, a success story! It’s probably not a representative one though. And this is where my anecdata gets more speculative, so please take this with a grain of salt: I know a lot of people who have psychiatric experiences which span a wide range. I know people who have experienced the “utter terror” of meds that didn’t work for them. I’ve heard and read similar experiences from people less close to me.
Of those people close to me who went off meds, they almost universally had worse experiences and outcomes. Almost everyone I know who’s had unpleasant experience with antidepressants stuck with it, and found something that works at least for a while until an adjustment was needed.
Reiterating, I am not a doctor. Just relaying my experience and what I can relay from people in my community. The biggest hurdle is the one you already leapt: facing this. The next biggest hurdle is that antidepressants take a long time to become effective if they will, and a long time to transition off if they’re not helpful. That’s a real hurdle! But with attentive care it should be about the same level of risk as declining treatment. Because attentive care is the more important factor there.
I don’t know what the answer for you should be. I do know that it’s more available to you because you’re asking the question in a well considered way.
I hope this helps.
> I realize this is somewhat of a taboo topic
Unfortunately true; I opened up a few times to different friends, and it never went well. But more people talking about it is the only way to change that, so thanks for posting!
I was in a similar situation as you; I remember once leaving work at noon claiming to feel sick, but actually it was because I couldn't think of anything except how I wanted to kill myself.
A couple years later, I'm still around, and here's what helped me:
* Bupropion, 150mg XL * Some basic understanding of CBT * Adderall
> The obvious solution to these problems are SSRIs and other anti-depressants. These drugs are very powerful but have really bad side-effects for most people that take them.
SSRI's definitely have an unsettlingly long list of side-effects, but keep in mind two things:
1. Not everyone experiences them; anecdotally, my sister started Prozac recently, and she's told me it's been great for her 2. If you do experience side effects you don't like, you can just... stop taking them. There's lot's of different SSRIs with different effects, and from what I've read it's common to cycle though a few before finding what works best.
Also, SSRIs are not the only option. As mentioned, I'm taking Bupropion, which has virtually no serious side effects. Look it up. And if you want to try it, you can just ask a doctor for it; tell them your concerns about SSRIs and just ask for Bupropion. No doctor is going to force you on SSRIs if you don't want them.
Side note: the XL version is the 24, slow release version. Works much better for me than the standard 4 hour tablets I started with.
On the topic of CBT, as others in this comment section have recommended, I read Feeling Good by David Burns, and it did help. It wasn't enough on its own, but a basic understanding of CBT goes a long way. The basic idea is training yourself to recognize bad thought patterns and taking action before they affect your mood. Honestly, it's stuff everyone could stand to learn.
Finally, I also figured out that I had ADHD. This was related to my depression because, frankly, it was depressing to struggle to accomplish the basic tasks other people seemed to have no trouble with. Especially noticeable as a programmer, where intensely focusing on a single thing for a long time is... basically the job description. Adderall has been a life changer for me.
> Have you been able to triumph without chemical assistance and what did that look like? Is my utter terror of these drugs warranted or should I just bite the bullet and try them?
I totally get the mindset of not wanting to take drugs. It feels like a crutch; something you shouldn't need to do. But eventually I realized that taking drugs daily wasn't any different than wearing glasses daily. I need the glasses to correct a biological defect with my eyes. I need the drugs to correct a biological defect with my brain. Humans are fragile, and a lot us aren't built to spec. The great thing about living in the modern world is that we can actually fix these problems.
Unfortunately true; I opened up a few times to different friends, and it never went well. But more people talking about it is the only way to change that, so thanks for posting!
I was in a similar situation as you; I remember once leaving work at noon claiming to feel sick, but actually it was because I couldn't think of anything except how I wanted to kill myself.
A couple years later, I'm still around, and here's what helped me:
* Bupropion, 150mg XL * Some basic understanding of CBT * Adderall
> The obvious solution to these problems are SSRIs and other anti-depressants. These drugs are very powerful but have really bad side-effects for most people that take them.
SSRI's definitely have an unsettlingly long list of side-effects, but keep in mind two things:
1. Not everyone experiences them; anecdotally, my sister started Prozac recently, and she's told me it's been great for her 2. If you do experience side effects you don't like, you can just... stop taking them. There's lot's of different SSRIs with different effects, and from what I've read it's common to cycle though a few before finding what works best.
Also, SSRIs are not the only option. As mentioned, I'm taking Bupropion, which has virtually no serious side effects. Look it up. And if you want to try it, you can just ask a doctor for it; tell them your concerns about SSRIs and just ask for Bupropion. No doctor is going to force you on SSRIs if you don't want them.
Side note: the XL version is the 24, slow release version. Works much better for me than the standard 4 hour tablets I started with.
On the topic of CBT, as others in this comment section have recommended, I read Feeling Good by David Burns, and it did help. It wasn't enough on its own, but a basic understanding of CBT goes a long way. The basic idea is training yourself to recognize bad thought patterns and taking action before they affect your mood. Honestly, it's stuff everyone could stand to learn.
Finally, I also figured out that I had ADHD. This was related to my depression because, frankly, it was depressing to struggle to accomplish the basic tasks other people seemed to have no trouble with. Especially noticeable as a programmer, where intensely focusing on a single thing for a long time is... basically the job description. Adderall has been a life changer for me.
> Have you been able to triumph without chemical assistance and what did that look like? Is my utter terror of these drugs warranted or should I just bite the bullet and try them?
I totally get the mindset of not wanting to take drugs. It feels like a crutch; something you shouldn't need to do. But eventually I realized that taking drugs daily wasn't any different than wearing glasses daily. I need the glasses to correct a biological defect with my eyes. I need the drugs to correct a biological defect with my brain. Humans are fragile, and a lot us aren't built to spec. The great thing about living in the modern world is that we can actually fix these problems.
+1 for Bupropion; completely life-changing for me; after doing some research I've come to understand that it's completely different from other "anti-depressants" and gets bunched with them for their "bad side effects" or whatever.
I would like to focus on two things you wrote:
> Beating depression with or without anti-depressants?
Depression is never really beaten, it's controlled, mitigated, kept at bay, and sometimes resurges and you start again. In my case, I haven't had a severe depressive episode in years, but have had minor ones most years since my late teens with several year and multi-year episodes. I haven't had suicidal ideation in over a decade, but I know that it's something that could happen again. I don't fear it, I just acknowledge it at this point and keep vigilant for the signs of a depressive episode. I don't use medication, I primarily use therapy (specifically cognitive behavioral therapy) and found ways to restructure my life which seem to have helped. But a lot of it is fragile, a move right before COVID restrictions left me in a very bad state 2 years ago (though not my worst, it was not good). Fortunately I have learned to recognize the onset of these episodes and my wife also helped by calling me out and I went back to therapy and I restarted the process. But it's never really "beaten".
> Life has taken me on ups and downs but as far as I can can tell I'm fairly lucky, well-off and have every reason to be happy.
This is a self-judgement, and when I am dealing with depression one I often make about myself. I'm married, have a house, relatively little debt (the mortgage itself), a job that pays well and likely won't get laid off from ever (if I choose to stay), I have my health, friends, and family. And then one of my best friends lost his mother last year and will likely lose his father this year and... I start to feel guilt and shame about my depression.
There are two ideas of depression that often get conflated because we use the same term:
1. Depression the emotion. This is what a grieving person feels, or the way someone who got skipped over for promotion describes their feelings (too extremely different feelings!). This is a valid way to describe how you feel, but is mostly a temporary thing (though "temporary" can be very long for something like grief). The advice to toughen up or "just be happy" is not helpful here, but it's not as harmful. Often it's usually "just" obnoxious and may end a friendship, at least for a time, but won't send you spiraling. But, importantly, this kind of depression often has at least one obvious causal factor. The loss, the humiliation, the pain, etc. It can be explained by circumstances.
2. Depression the disorder. This is what you are describing, what I have experienced (and will likely experience again). That sort of statement, "Look at your life, you have it good, you should be happy" is more likely to cause a downward spiral than "just" annoyance. It becomes an earworm, nagging at you and eating away at what willpower you have and what positive mood you may occasionally be able to muster until you're stuck in the hole. It's not the only thing that does it, but one of many. Some come from outside, some from inside. The painful element here is that this sort of depression has no obvious causal factors (though it may have exacerbating ones, grief from losing all my grandparents in just a couple years certainly made my college-era depression far worse, but it was not the cause).
This is one of the things that CBT, in particular, helped me with. I learned to recognize both the cause of these thoughts (in particular the self-generated ones, versus someone trying to be helpful but failing) and my reaction to them (and how they spiraled). Sometimes you can't find a cause, but you can still examine the reaction. This has helped me to stop the downward spiral (not always, and not usually immediately, but it's helped) so that I can at least still function well enough to acknowledge the need for help and get it. In some cases, those thoughts now just disappear almost as soon as they appear in my mind. This is the ideal (well, the ideal is that they never pop up again, but from my experience that hasn't happened yet). It's not easy, it's a process, but it's something to think about and work towards.
I also have learned over the years what things elevate my mood, and break the spiral. I'm an introvert (in a general sense), but thrive with friends and family (in small groups). I took up sports and athletics as an adult and found being outside and the kinds of activities being fit enabled to be helpful to me. Team sports gave me some camaraderie that I was missing, too.
Like I said, though, it's not perfect, I have not "beaten" depression. I was doing great in my old town, old job, and pre-COVID. I was doing fine here before COVID, and then just got slammed by the isolation and stress of it all. Many of my coping mechanisms weren't available. But I still had enough awareness of myself, how I was feeling, the sense of the downward spiral, and the openness with my wife about my feelings, that we cut it short in 2020 (compared to some of my prior episodes) and I went straight to therapy. Learned new skills, found new ways to cope despite the isolation, etc. I still had "every reason to be happy" at that point during COVID. I still had my health, no one in my family had caught COVID (at least not immediate family, several "x's in-laws' in-laws' nephew died last week" kind of things though), still had my job (no risk of being laid off, the work still needed to be done and was still making money). But depression the disorder does not care about the reasons, it's a thing we have to deal with (healthy coping mechanisms, therapy, and medication being the better ways).
Learning to accept that idea, that it's not my fault that I'm depressed, that it's not a moral failing that I'm depressed, that it's just a fact of life that I (with some frequency and to varying degrees) become depressed, has itself been immensely helpful in getting the help that I need, recognizing (because I stopped being in denial, for one reason) when I am in a depressive episode, and getting through them and out of them more effectively.
> Beating depression with or without anti-depressants?
Depression is never really beaten, it's controlled, mitigated, kept at bay, and sometimes resurges and you start again. In my case, I haven't had a severe depressive episode in years, but have had minor ones most years since my late teens with several year and multi-year episodes. I haven't had suicidal ideation in over a decade, but I know that it's something that could happen again. I don't fear it, I just acknowledge it at this point and keep vigilant for the signs of a depressive episode. I don't use medication, I primarily use therapy (specifically cognitive behavioral therapy) and found ways to restructure my life which seem to have helped. But a lot of it is fragile, a move right before COVID restrictions left me in a very bad state 2 years ago (though not my worst, it was not good). Fortunately I have learned to recognize the onset of these episodes and my wife also helped by calling me out and I went back to therapy and I restarted the process. But it's never really "beaten".
> Life has taken me on ups and downs but as far as I can can tell I'm fairly lucky, well-off and have every reason to be happy.
This is a self-judgement, and when I am dealing with depression one I often make about myself. I'm married, have a house, relatively little debt (the mortgage itself), a job that pays well and likely won't get laid off from ever (if I choose to stay), I have my health, friends, and family. And then one of my best friends lost his mother last year and will likely lose his father this year and... I start to feel guilt and shame about my depression.
There are two ideas of depression that often get conflated because we use the same term:
1. Depression the emotion. This is what a grieving person feels, or the way someone who got skipped over for promotion describes their feelings (too extremely different feelings!). This is a valid way to describe how you feel, but is mostly a temporary thing (though "temporary" can be very long for something like grief). The advice to toughen up or "just be happy" is not helpful here, but it's not as harmful. Often it's usually "just" obnoxious and may end a friendship, at least for a time, but won't send you spiraling. But, importantly, this kind of depression often has at least one obvious causal factor. The loss, the humiliation, the pain, etc. It can be explained by circumstances.
2. Depression the disorder. This is what you are describing, what I have experienced (and will likely experience again). That sort of statement, "Look at your life, you have it good, you should be happy" is more likely to cause a downward spiral than "just" annoyance. It becomes an earworm, nagging at you and eating away at what willpower you have and what positive mood you may occasionally be able to muster until you're stuck in the hole. It's not the only thing that does it, but one of many. Some come from outside, some from inside. The painful element here is that this sort of depression has no obvious causal factors (though it may have exacerbating ones, grief from losing all my grandparents in just a couple years certainly made my college-era depression far worse, but it was not the cause).
This is one of the things that CBT, in particular, helped me with. I learned to recognize both the cause of these thoughts (in particular the self-generated ones, versus someone trying to be helpful but failing) and my reaction to them (and how they spiraled). Sometimes you can't find a cause, but you can still examine the reaction. This has helped me to stop the downward spiral (not always, and not usually immediately, but it's helped) so that I can at least still function well enough to acknowledge the need for help and get it. In some cases, those thoughts now just disappear almost as soon as they appear in my mind. This is the ideal (well, the ideal is that they never pop up again, but from my experience that hasn't happened yet). It's not easy, it's a process, but it's something to think about and work towards.
I also have learned over the years what things elevate my mood, and break the spiral. I'm an introvert (in a general sense), but thrive with friends and family (in small groups). I took up sports and athletics as an adult and found being outside and the kinds of activities being fit enabled to be helpful to me. Team sports gave me some camaraderie that I was missing, too.
Like I said, though, it's not perfect, I have not "beaten" depression. I was doing great in my old town, old job, and pre-COVID. I was doing fine here before COVID, and then just got slammed by the isolation and stress of it all. Many of my coping mechanisms weren't available. But I still had enough awareness of myself, how I was feeling, the sense of the downward spiral, and the openness with my wife about my feelings, that we cut it short in 2020 (compared to some of my prior episodes) and I went straight to therapy. Learned new skills, found new ways to cope despite the isolation, etc. I still had "every reason to be happy" at that point during COVID. I still had my health, no one in my family had caught COVID (at least not immediate family, several "x's in-laws' in-laws' nephew died last week" kind of things though), still had my job (no risk of being laid off, the work still needed to be done and was still making money). But depression the disorder does not care about the reasons, it's a thing we have to deal with (healthy coping mechanisms, therapy, and medication being the better ways).
Learning to accept that idea, that it's not my fault that I'm depressed, that it's not a moral failing that I'm depressed, that it's just a fact of life that I (with some frequency and to varying degrees) become depressed, has itself been immensely helpful in getting the help that I need, recognizing (because I stopped being in denial, for one reason) when I am in a depressive episode, and getting through them and out of them more effectively.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6985449/
https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkeqd8/what-happens-lsd-over...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5289311/
TLDR Its thought LSD sort of mimics SSRI's and locks into the serotonin receptor, but which receptor I dont know as I havent read the article and there will be a few different one's if other receptors are to go by, like histamine.
SSRI's can affect your sleep which will affect your memories and possibly your work. If you program then not being able to remember where code is could be a problem but it might not be. Escitalopram is like doing Ecstasy (MDMA) if you drink copious amounts of black tea and sugar when on them, ie you will have little E rushes throughout the day which could send your life off the rails. Melatonin besides being the sleep hormone is an anti oxidant and helps release stem cells and SSRI's can affect this hormone.
The older MAOI's maybe better, but OD on those and you will literally lights out and have no recollection of passing out. Popular with those looking to end it which is why SSRI's came to be. Problem with some of the SSRI's is they can also affect other parts of the brain which could heighten aggression and other less than desirable effects. You will reports of some SSRI's even on here https://www.erowid.org/pharms/fluoxetine/fluoxetine.shtml
I'd also look into the metals that make up various SOD's. Super Oxide Dismutase's they reduces Free Radicals and these can contribute enormously to stress, and other less than desirable effects in the body. Start with copper.
An inorganic Carbonate would probably be the only form of a metal I'd touch not chloride & sulfate, the others I would get chelated ie a metal bound to something like Glycine, which causes vasodilation and reduces inflammation , and happens to be the one chemical that has significantly increased the life span of rats more than anything else. It powers up the mitochondria.
I'd take a serious look at your diet though, your environment and even your sleep habits. Identify what it is that gets you down and see if you can resolve them. Easier said than down when considering how stubborn or criminal people can be which may be contributing your depression, but I'd start with diet and environment, and I'm not qualified in anything except my own opinion!
TLDR Its thought LSD sort of mimics SSRI's and locks into the serotonin receptor, but which receptor I dont know as I havent read the article and there will be a few different one's if other receptors are to go by, like histamine.
SSRI's can affect your sleep which will affect your memories and possibly your work. If you program then not being able to remember where code is could be a problem but it might not be. Escitalopram is like doing Ecstasy (MDMA) if you drink copious amounts of black tea and sugar when on them, ie you will have little E rushes throughout the day which could send your life off the rails. Melatonin besides being the sleep hormone is an anti oxidant and helps release stem cells and SSRI's can affect this hormone.
The older MAOI's maybe better, but OD on those and you will literally lights out and have no recollection of passing out. Popular with those looking to end it which is why SSRI's came to be. Problem with some of the SSRI's is they can also affect other parts of the brain which could heighten aggression and other less than desirable effects. You will reports of some SSRI's even on here https://www.erowid.org/pharms/fluoxetine/fluoxetine.shtml
I'd also look into the metals that make up various SOD's. Super Oxide Dismutase's they reduces Free Radicals and these can contribute enormously to stress, and other less than desirable effects in the body. Start with copper.
An inorganic Carbonate would probably be the only form of a metal I'd touch not chloride & sulfate, the others I would get chelated ie a metal bound to something like Glycine, which causes vasodilation and reduces inflammation , and happens to be the one chemical that has significantly increased the life span of rats more than anything else. It powers up the mitochondria.
I'd take a serious look at your diet though, your environment and even your sleep habits. Identify what it is that gets you down and see if you can resolve them. Easier said than down when considering how stubborn or criminal people can be which may be contributing your depression, but I'd start with diet and environment, and I'm not qualified in anything except my own opinion!
What if the problem is not the depression, but your actual life situation? Have you considered radically changing your life?
I have been struggling with depression for as long as I can remember.
Life has taken me on ups and downs but as far as I can can tell I'm fairly lucky, well-off and have every reason to be happy.
Unfortunately I'm not.
I wake up with a pit in my stomach that I carry around all day and no matter how hard I try I just can't shake it.
It also gets really bad in waves to the point where I nearly can't function but most of all it makes me procrastinate on almost everything.
I usually end up using all my effort just to be a functional member of my team at work.
The sad part is that I know that if I didn't have this condition and I was able to sleep when I wanted to I could be many times more productive, not only at work but also in life.
The obvious solution to these problems are SSRIs and other anti-depressants. These drugs are very powerful but have really bad side-effects for most people that take them.
For these reasons I am completely shit-scared of them. I see them as my option of last resort but increasingly I feel my options running out.
I have tried therapy, I have tried all sorts of coping mechanisms but nothing solves the problem permanently.
So HN, what has your experience been with depression? Have you tried the drugs? What worked or didn't? Have you been able to triumph without chemical assistance and what did that look like? Is my utter terror of these drugs warranted or should I just bite the bullet and try them?