Paul Graham is leaving Twitter for now(twitter.com)
twitter.com
Paul Graham is leaving Twitter for now
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1604556563338887168
1,090 comments
> seemed like a good time to learn about alternatives.
Would be great to see you being more active on HN again!
Would be great to see you being more active on HN again!
Thanks, but as I learned when I was running HN, being a regular user of a forum (which the moderator necessarily is) and writing essays are fundamentally incompatible.
If you're known to be a regular user of a forum, then when someone says something about you and you don't reply, it reads as a tacit admission that they're correct. And when you write essays people say all kinds of things about you. The combination is a disaster. Forum users can sense that you're compelled to respond, and it encourages them to pick fights with you.
Back when I used to moderate HN, hitting publish on an essay was usually followed by several hours of saying various forms of "No, what I said was..." Life is much better now that I never look at the HN threads on them.
If you're known to be a regular user of a forum, then when someone says something about you and you don't reply, it reads as a tacit admission that they're correct. And when you write essays people say all kinds of things about you. The combination is a disaster. Forum users can sense that you're compelled to respond, and it encourages them to pick fights with you.
Back when I used to moderate HN, hitting publish on an essay was usually followed by several hours of saying various forms of "No, what I said was..." Life is much better now that I never look at the HN threads on them.
Rule #1 of any forum is don't moderate the forum that you are active on. Musk is finding out the hard way why this is the case.
Happy to see your post here though!
Edit: and while we have you here briefly, Happy Holidays!
Happy to see your post here though!
Edit: and while we have you here briefly, Happy Holidays!
pg will almost certainly be reinstated because he's a high-profile supporter.
But just because the new owner makes exceptions to his ridiculous anti-free-speech policy for high-profile supporters doesn't make it better.
In fact, selective enforcement of batshit policies makes it all much worse.
But just because the new owner makes exceptions to his ridiculous anti-free-speech policy for high-profile supporters doesn't make it better.
In fact, selective enforcement of batshit policies makes it all much worse.
Yes, but it would be folly to continue to invest into a forum that is run in such a capricious way.
Huh, I'm one of several mods for a Sub-Reddit. Works fine. Only things that changed are a) my own comment quality standard is higher and b) the way I read other comments. Now, I scan comments for rule infractions, which lessens my reading enjoyment a bit.
Also never observed a problem between mods and other users in other Sub-Reddits. Maybe because mods on Reddit are not that visible?
Also never observed a problem between mods and other users in other Sub-Reddits. Maybe because mods on Reddit are not that visible?
Depends on the subject matter as well. I've moderated a - large - forum for years and in the beginning I was also a user of the site. That quickly led to people figuring out that the moderator is a part of the scene and so you get people that try to get into your good book and others that try to set each other up. Every word you write gets lawyered over and so on. If your Sub-Reddit doesn't have those problems count yourself lucky. But personally I think that the way dang here does it is perfect (see: sucking up ;) ), he only enters the conversation to explain his moderation actions, but does not actually take a position on any of the issues discussed, thus leading to perceived impartiality (he still gets plenty of flak but imo that is undeserved).
> (he still gets plenty of flak but imo that is undeserved)
Yeah I don't think it's possible to escape the criticism even without taking a position. That said, of the two options, I agree that not wading in may have less of a chilling effect and thus encourages more interaction.
It gets more complicated behind the scenes. If you're making a lot of content moderation decisions without disclosing them, you may be introducing bias without realizing it. Eventually people are going to be hip to that. Platforms are rife with this right now: selective invisibility, visibility filtering, ranking, visible to self, reducing, deboosting, and "disguising a gag" are all words platforms use internally or externally to justify non-disclosure of content moderation decisions. Without public awareness of the existence of these secretive moderation decisions, administrators may feel they have to use them in order to compete with other forums.
I think transparent moderation is the sustainable way forwards for social media, and I recently made my case for that here:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/shadowbans-are-bad-for-discours...
Yeah I don't think it's possible to escape the criticism even without taking a position. That said, of the two options, I agree that not wading in may have less of a chilling effect and thus encourages more interaction.
It gets more complicated behind the scenes. If you're making a lot of content moderation decisions without disclosing them, you may be introducing bias without realizing it. Eventually people are going to be hip to that. Platforms are rife with this right now: selective invisibility, visibility filtering, ranking, visible to self, reducing, deboosting, and "disguising a gag" are all words platforms use internally or externally to justify non-disclosure of content moderation decisions. Without public awareness of the existence of these secretive moderation decisions, administrators may feel they have to use them in order to compete with other forums.
I think transparent moderation is the sustainable way forwards for social media, and I recently made my case for that here:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/shadowbans-are-bad-for-discours...
> Huh, I'm one of several mods for a Sub-Reddit. Works fine.
Reddit is mostly anonymous, which can make people think they can do whatever they want as moderators/users without any repercussions. Of course that isn't true: all of our actions impact our own behavior, attitude etc.
> Also never observed a problem between mods and other users in other Sub-Reddits. Maybe because mods on Reddit are not that visible?
It happens all the time. These r/Libertarian [1] and r/LibertarianUncensored [2] threads may be the most succinct examples of how far users/mods will go to make their voices heard. I list many more in my talk [3].
[1] https://archive.ph/O0GN8#selection-2701.0-2707.56
[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/LibertarianUncensored/comments/uotv...
[3] https://shadowmoderation.com/2022-10-transparent-moderation/
Reddit is mostly anonymous, which can make people think they can do whatever they want as moderators/users without any repercussions. Of course that isn't true: all of our actions impact our own behavior, attitude etc.
> Also never observed a problem between mods and other users in other Sub-Reddits. Maybe because mods on Reddit are not that visible?
It happens all the time. These r/Libertarian [1] and r/LibertarianUncensored [2] threads may be the most succinct examples of how far users/mods will go to make their voices heard. I list many more in my talk [3].
[1] https://archive.ph/O0GN8#selection-2701.0-2707.56
[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/LibertarianUncensored/comments/uotv...
[3] https://shadowmoderation.com/2022-10-transparent-moderation/
It's funny you mention /r/libertarian x) I was shadow-banned for saying (verbatim) "Imposing your will through violence is always illegitimate" (the context was Chile's 1973 coup).
Can't we all just go back to syndicating RSS?
It was so simple in those days.
Except for that time before they got html escaping figured out and some joker put an unclosed <BLINK> tag in their title, and the entire blogoverse started blinking.
It was so simple in those days.
Except for that time before they got html escaping figured out and some joker put an unclosed <BLINK> tag in their title, and the entire blogoverse started blinking.
Agreed, but centralized services will always be easier to use and people drift toward the easiest solution.
People value freedom a little less than convenience.
People value freedom a little less than convenience.
You should check out Radiopaper (radiopaper.com), which was designed to address this dynamic: when someone sends you a message or comments on something you wrote, their comment is only visible to you and remains unpublished until/unless you reply.
HN post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31210680
HN post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31210680
Hello! I am the CEO and cofounder of Radiopaper. Thanks for mentioning us. The mechanism you describe is indeed one of the core features of the platform. The effect is to distributes moderation decisions to those most immediately affected
I might be stating the obvious here, but it's just sad that loud negative minority deprieved everyone else of your participation. I learned a ton from your essays and would be happy to see you actively commenting on HN.
Like, no specific solution or anything from me, I get why you make that decision and not trying to convince you to change it – just wanted to post a comment of appreciation I guess.
Like, no specific solution or anything from me, I get why you make that decision and not trying to convince you to change it – just wanted to post a comment of appreciation I guess.
@dang does a great job moderating HN. Perhaps he should reach out to Elon and share advice?
> His work on cars and rockets speaks for itself.
I used to think that too, but I've since come across a story that SpaceX actually has people who's informal job is to manage him, and they present their ideas in such a way that he thinks they're his, in order to keep him happy. He's mostly there to bring money and hype.
No idea if that story is true, but honestly, it would explain some things.
The impression he's been giving me recently is that his success may have broken him. Too many people worshipping him and praising literally every crazy thing he does, may have made him believe he can do literally everything including run a social media company on his own without first learning how social media companies work. He honestly seems to be running Twitter into the ground. The mass firings he started with, followed by ruining the blue checkmark feature, really didn't make it look like he knows what he's doing. His management style sounds like hell.
I used to think that too, but I've since come across a story that SpaceX actually has people who's informal job is to manage him, and they present their ideas in such a way that he thinks they're his, in order to keep him happy. He's mostly there to bring money and hype.
No idea if that story is true, but honestly, it would explain some things.
The impression he's been giving me recently is that his success may have broken him. Too many people worshipping him and praising literally every crazy thing he does, may have made him believe he can do literally everything including run a social media company on his own without first learning how social media companies work. He honestly seems to be running Twitter into the ground. The mass firings he started with, followed by ruining the blue checkmark feature, really didn't make it look like he knows what he's doing. His management style sounds like hell.
I did my PhD under possibly the most narcissistic, ruthless, and petty professors anyone around me had ever heard of, so I might be able to comment on this.
I and the few people who managed to actually graduate with our sanity intact (out of like 50) learned to play this game you suggested where we have to play to their egos, and try and salvage their shitty, shitty ideas into workable projects that will end with us publishing. Every week they will suggest experiments that are nonsensical, and we will huddle and discuss how to do some preliminary work and present it in a way such that they will think it’s their idea to change it in a more productive direction.
When smart people are forced to work with egotistical pricks like this, I think it’s inevitable such a system comes in place.
The interesting thing is my professor kinda knew we do this, he just acknowledged it as part of the dance of their system. For Better or worse this shitty lab actually put out a drug that helps patients (I constantly think about how and why that happened). Could this lab have been more productive? Absolutely. Would this lab have existed without these people though? Probably not though.
The question here is whether Elon is aware this is why spacex and Tesla succeeded or he’s too deranged now to remember it. Looks like it’s the latter and that just sucks. My professors too have gotten unhinged (they’ve been literally pushed out of two universities and an entire country, though they always find another sucker, which at this point is the wellcome institute lol). When you’ve been doing this shitty shtick for too long I suppose it gets to you.
I and the few people who managed to actually graduate with our sanity intact (out of like 50) learned to play this game you suggested where we have to play to their egos, and try and salvage their shitty, shitty ideas into workable projects that will end with us publishing. Every week they will suggest experiments that are nonsensical, and we will huddle and discuss how to do some preliminary work and present it in a way such that they will think it’s their idea to change it in a more productive direction.
When smart people are forced to work with egotistical pricks like this, I think it’s inevitable such a system comes in place.
The interesting thing is my professor kinda knew we do this, he just acknowledged it as part of the dance of their system. For Better or worse this shitty lab actually put out a drug that helps patients (I constantly think about how and why that happened). Could this lab have been more productive? Absolutely. Would this lab have existed without these people though? Probably not though.
The question here is whether Elon is aware this is why spacex and Tesla succeeded or he’s too deranged now to remember it. Looks like it’s the latter and that just sucks. My professors too have gotten unhinged (they’ve been literally pushed out of two universities and an entire country, though they always find another sucker, which at this point is the wellcome institute lol). When you’ve been doing this shitty shtick for too long I suppose it gets to you.
> The interesting thing is my professor kinda knew we do this, he just acknowledged it as part of the dance of their system.
Professor's diary: It's so tiring coming up with broken experiments that still have some possible merit, but the system works, and my role is clear. If only the benefits of working under constraints weren't so clear with regard to innovation, they they are what they are and this farce continues for all of us. Maybe I'll finally feel like the private sector is the way to go next yet. Probably not, but who knows.
Also, this sounds like I've heard the military described at times, expecially in war, where the upper echelons come out with wile ideas that make no sense on the ground and mid-level officers pull wild solutions out of their asses and whatever works ends up being copied.
I could see something like this possibly developing as a natural solution when all you look at is the output and not the process, and provide a rigid framework within which different behavior can be iterated until it stabilizes on something that works. That, unsurprisingly to me, has similarities in how ML works, given given these are basically institutions that act as machines.
Professor's diary: It's so tiring coming up with broken experiments that still have some possible merit, but the system works, and my role is clear. If only the benefits of working under constraints weren't so clear with regard to innovation, they they are what they are and this farce continues for all of us. Maybe I'll finally feel like the private sector is the way to go next yet. Probably not, but who knows.
Also, this sounds like I've heard the military described at times, expecially in war, where the upper echelons come out with wile ideas that make no sense on the ground and mid-level officers pull wild solutions out of their asses and whatever works ends up being copied.
I could see something like this possibly developing as a natural solution when all you look at is the output and not the process, and provide a rigid framework within which different behavior can be iterated until it stabilizes on something that works. That, unsurprisingly to me, has similarities in how ML works, given given these are basically institutions that act as machines.
Honestly sounds kind of like my job. Corporate executives suggesting nonsensical solutions to technical problems they created and insisting they are right. You just need to let them think they won and work around them to get things done. You learn this after a few years working corporate. No point butting heads with people in power. They won’t back down because they will look silly to everyone else in the meeting. They always have to be right to save their own face.
Achieving a PhD in dealing with narcissistic assholes is a valuable career skill, that will benefit you in any field, no matter the topic of your thesis.
The most important skill I learned getting a BS in CS was how to BS.
The most important skill I learned getting a BS in CS was how to BS.
You’re absolutely right about that. I switched over to tech, and pretty much feel like Will Ferrell in the final season of office, “this job is a joke” and all this politics is so silly and petty and so easy to game and overcome! Life is literally in easy mode now. I highly recommend a PhD to anyone who wants to just become wiser about life in general not just to do research.
> try and salvage their shitty, shitty ideas into workable projects that will end with us publishing.
Maybe the university publish or perish system is the real problem, with the egojerks being symptoms?
Maybe the university publish or perish system is the real problem, with the egojerks being symptoms?
no; the pathology is independent of social system.
Do you mean that the system is not the problem, but the pathological people running the system are the problem?
Why does USA bother with the trope of invading countries "to spread democracy" if USA could just install one chosen person who rules as we want?
Why does USA bother with the trope of invading countries "to spread democracy" if USA could just install one chosen person who rules as we want?
If the pathology is adaptive in the social system, I doubt they’re independent.
How is that related?
Why can't a PI push his team to publish a lot, even callously work them to the bone (common in chemistry) without being and egotistical psychopath?
Is it because the egotistical psychopathy is the excuse the PI hides behind when stealing credit/authorship from their team members?
Why can't a PI push his team to publish a lot, even callously work them to the bone (common in chemistry) without being and egotistical psychopath?
Is it because the egotistical psychopathy is the excuse the PI hides behind when stealing credit/authorship from their team members?
I worked on the Engineering side of compliance at my last job managing Compliance and Security. As part of going public, part of my job was keeping some executives away from the Auditors. This was not because the Auditors wanted information from them that we didn’t want to share, but because the auditors actually had zero interest in what they had to say. I.e. they did not care about Joe Techbro and his Git front end and how it would allow us to avoid having an Internal Audit team (news flash: it didn’t).
All these pointless conversations would slow the process down and the auditors would bill (aggressively) for these pointless interjections.
My job for a while was listening for signs they would do this, create a meeting, take notes, email the notes to our Eng team, and then fein concern. This worked as the audit team were able to do what they needed to do and we went public. Eventually half the people I was playing interference against were asked to leave the company or were otherwise fired for unrelated reasons that I’d roughly group into being unprofessional or poorly prepared for their role.
In my subsequent job (years later and at a multinational) I’ve seen more of this. I’ve learned that at any sufficiently large company there will be at least one person paid to keep one person from messing things up with their presence.
Overall, I find the stories about keeping Elon placated completely believable.
All these pointless conversations would slow the process down and the auditors would bill (aggressively) for these pointless interjections.
My job for a while was listening for signs they would do this, create a meeting, take notes, email the notes to our Eng team, and then fein concern. This worked as the audit team were able to do what they needed to do and we went public. Eventually half the people I was playing interference against were asked to leave the company or were otherwise fired for unrelated reasons that I’d roughly group into being unprofessional or poorly prepared for their role.
In my subsequent job (years later and at a multinational) I’ve seen more of this. I’ve learned that at any sufficiently large company there will be at least one person paid to keep one person from messing things up with their presence.
Overall, I find the stories about keeping Elon placated completely believable.
My dad's oldest living friend worked at Koch industries for years. I forget his official title, but they way he describes his role was "I ran interference to keep the brothers from killing each other."
I read this book a few years back: https://www.amazon.com/Elon-Musk-SpaceX-Fantastic-Future/dp/... Here are my recollections/opinions (stripping out further qualifiers to save space)
The truth is somewhere between what the boosters want you to believe and what the detractors want you to believe. Elon's very smart and works incredibly hard, but has a serious ego problem and isn't pleasant to work for. A bit like Steve Jobs maybe.
No CEO can succeed without attracting talented people and inspiring them to excel, and Elon has been very successful at that. By working incredibly hard, thinking incredibly big, and setting high expectations, he inspires everyone else in the company. But he's also capricious in a way that demoralizes people and burns them out.
We like the story of a lone hero who does everything. But there are many people who worked at Elon's companies and played a key role, but feel underappreciated in a way that the author seemed sympathetic to.
The "people managing Elon" thing is true to a degree. It so happens that I've spoken to a couple employees (one SpaceX one Tesla) who both told me stories like this. (Specifically the two stories were something like: (1) "We adjusted the Tesla to optimize for the route Elon drives, even though that hurt autopilot performance overall" and (2) "We keep having to explain to Elon the basic probability math that explains the importance of continually testing rocket components")
At the same time, "he's mostly there to bring money and hype" seriously underplays his role. As an extreme analogy, imagine you had a toddler who told you "[Mommy/Daddy] I designed an awesome treehouse and I want you to build it". You keep saying you're busy and treehouses are impractical. But your toddler gets you to buy into their vision, and challenges you to overcome obstacles until an awesome treehouse is built. Even if you did all the work in this analogy, you have to give your toddler some credit. The power of visionary leadership and extreme determination was one of my big takeaways from the book -- again similar to Jobs with the "reality distortion field", I guess.
Social media moderation requires a humility and good judgement -- not Elon's strengths. But it's definitely not a coincidence that he's started so many successful companies.
The truth is somewhere between what the boosters want you to believe and what the detractors want you to believe. Elon's very smart and works incredibly hard, but has a serious ego problem and isn't pleasant to work for. A bit like Steve Jobs maybe.
No CEO can succeed without attracting talented people and inspiring them to excel, and Elon has been very successful at that. By working incredibly hard, thinking incredibly big, and setting high expectations, he inspires everyone else in the company. But he's also capricious in a way that demoralizes people and burns them out.
We like the story of a lone hero who does everything. But there are many people who worked at Elon's companies and played a key role, but feel underappreciated in a way that the author seemed sympathetic to.
The "people managing Elon" thing is true to a degree. It so happens that I've spoken to a couple employees (one SpaceX one Tesla) who both told me stories like this. (Specifically the two stories were something like: (1) "We adjusted the Tesla to optimize for the route Elon drives, even though that hurt autopilot performance overall" and (2) "We keep having to explain to Elon the basic probability math that explains the importance of continually testing rocket components")
At the same time, "he's mostly there to bring money and hype" seriously underplays his role. As an extreme analogy, imagine you had a toddler who told you "[Mommy/Daddy] I designed an awesome treehouse and I want you to build it". You keep saying you're busy and treehouses are impractical. But your toddler gets you to buy into their vision, and challenges you to overcome obstacles until an awesome treehouse is built. Even if you did all the work in this analogy, you have to give your toddler some credit. The power of visionary leadership and extreme determination was one of my big takeaways from the book -- again similar to Jobs with the "reality distortion field", I guess.
Social media moderation requires a humility and good judgement -- not Elon's strengths. But it's definitely not a coincidence that he's started so many successful companies.
The difference with Twitter is that, being a web site and app, his decisions have immediate visibility. Bans, unbans, blue checkmarks — those become visible to everyone in the world to see right away.
With his other companies, the lag time before anything becomes public is longer. We presumably don't see a lot of the eccentric decisions Musk makes because the companies are able to course-correct before they end up becoming real.
Of course, we still get screws-ups like the Cybertruck and whatever that robot was.
With his other companies, the lag time before anything becomes public is longer. We presumably don't see a lot of the eccentric decisions Musk makes because the companies are able to course-correct before they end up becoming real.
Of course, we still get screws-ups like the Cybertruck and whatever that robot was.
He's good at finding the right people and putting them in a room, and convincing other people to give him money...that's it.
LegitShady(2)
SpaceX has talented people working there despite Elon, not because of him.
They supposedly have an entire handbook on "managing Elon" for deflecting his weird requests and framing things in a way that doesn't provoke his ire. They put up with it because they only have so many opportunities to work on space.
Twitter has people dependent on their H-1B and very few true believers that are unfit to serve in their role. Ella Irwin has apparently personally ghost banned ("Hide Reply" but with lying to the user about being hidden) any mention of libsoftiktok - a stochastic terror organization just itching for a lynching of queer people - made anywhere close to TwitterSafety recently.
They supposedly have an entire handbook on "managing Elon" for deflecting his weird requests and framing things in a way that doesn't provoke his ire. They put up with it because they only have so many opportunities to work on space.
Twitter has people dependent on their H-1B and very few true believers that are unfit to serve in their role. Ella Irwin has apparently personally ghost banned ("Hide Reply" but with lying to the user about being hidden) any mention of libsoftiktok - a stochastic terror organization just itching for a lynching of queer people - made anywhere close to TwitterSafety recently.
Right, Twitter is absolutely nothing like SpaceX or Tesla. Twitter's problems aren't engineering issues, they're political and related to moderation. Content moderation is one of the hardest problems current which no company has managed to solve. Especially when you have the user-creator-advertiser triangle. It was clear from the very start Elon has no clue what he was walking into.
My impression were that Twitter’s problems included:
1. Not having that much revenue
2. Being expensive to run
Firing a bunch of people probably helped with #2. But there are definitely engineering problems in there too. For #1, there was the whole verified checks thing but I think that’s not going to bring in anywhere near as much money as ads did. Seems one good thing to do there is not upset advertisers. Currently advertisers seem upset. An alternative would be allowing more advertisers, eg gambling ads are quite lucrative.
The whole censorship/hellsite stuff doesn’t strike me as such an immediate problem – I think Twitter could have done ok for a while with the previous moderation policy changing at the previous rate. Though figuring out better things to do there would probably be necessary in the long term and something a private company might better be able to do, eg figuring out how to focus on the long-term interests of users rather than numbers that shareholders think are important.
But maybe I’m totally wrong and if Elon wasn’t seen to be doing things about censorship the whole thing would fall apart?
1. Not having that much revenue
2. Being expensive to run
Firing a bunch of people probably helped with #2. But there are definitely engineering problems in there too. For #1, there was the whole verified checks thing but I think that’s not going to bring in anywhere near as much money as ads did. Seems one good thing to do there is not upset advertisers. Currently advertisers seem upset. An alternative would be allowing more advertisers, eg gambling ads are quite lucrative.
The whole censorship/hellsite stuff doesn’t strike me as such an immediate problem – I think Twitter could have done ok for a while with the previous moderation policy changing at the previous rate. Though figuring out better things to do there would probably be necessary in the long term and something a private company might better be able to do, eg figuring out how to focus on the long-term interests of users rather than numbers that shareholders think are important.
But maybe I’m totally wrong and if Elon wasn’t seen to be doing things about censorship the whole thing would fall apart?
> 1. Not having that much revenue
Twitter had $5 billion in revenue in 2021. Its issue was profitability, not revenue.
Twitter had $5 billion in revenue in 2021. Its issue was profitability, not revenue.
TikTok seems to have managed it well. Well, except from being chinese-owned.
TikTok is a complete black box, no one has any idea how any of it works, so it's easier to pretend everything is fine if no one knows what's happening. They could be over-moderating and erring on the side of having more false negatives, and no one would know.
Also, I wouldn't really say so, there are plenty of stories about the algorithm serving harmful content to kids. But again since each person has a different FYP, it's hard to tell. Just because you don't fall into a bad rabbit hole doesn't mean some kid out there won't.
Also, I wouldn't really say so, there are plenty of stories about the algorithm serving harmful content to kids. But again since each person has a different FYP, it's hard to tell. Just because you don't fall into a bad rabbit hole doesn't mean some kid out there won't.
My theory that TikTok is being run by hordes of poor Chinese people, handpicking and catering most feeds by hand
Not sure what makes a big tech company great being totally American controlled. If TikTok is managed well it could be the same with Twitter.
twitter's biggest issue are bots, and that's an engineering issue.
the politics are just noise.
the politics are just noise.
> They supposedly have an entire handbook on "managing Elon" for deflecting his weird requests and framing things in a way that doesn't provoke his ire.
I heard that too. Is it just a rumour or do we know this is true?
And if it's true at SpaceX, is it also true at Tesla?
I heard that too. Is it just a rumour or do we know this is true?
And if it's true at SpaceX, is it also true at Tesla?
Regarding your first question, see here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34042340
I see no reason why Tesla would be any different.
I see no reason why Tesla would be any different.
That reads like fiction to me.
Someone pseudonymously posting on Tumblr about being an early SpaceX intern is not in anyway a reliable source. The story sounds 100% made up.
At any rate, "managing up" is a normal thing for people in the management hierarchy everywhere.
Someone pseudonymously posting on Tumblr about being an early SpaceX intern is not in anyway a reliable source. The story sounds 100% made up.
At any rate, "managing up" is a normal thing for people in the management hierarchy everywhere.
Tesla is absolutely the same.
I’ve heard about people depending on Twitter for visa sponsorship but I don’t think I’ve seen any firsthand accounts. Is it actually happening? I’ve also heard that people who work for (or were fired from) twitter were deluged with job offers despite it not being a great time for hiring (so my guess is that people on H1-B visas could find sponsorship elsewhere)
It wouldn’t surprise me to learn that some people are staying for risk-aversion reasons but I feel like most people are there because:
- they actually like Elon or believe in the future of Twitter under different management
- they see it as an opportunity for career growth (you can have proportionally larger impact on the business; fewer senior positions at the company; they will likely hire more people soon, just not at salaries that are effectively inflated by Elon’s purchase)
- they correctly infer that they would be in a worse position if they moved to some other firm. (I think most people thinking this underestimate themselves, however)
It seems like it could be possible for employees to have a big impact on the platform or the business. It also seems like the whole thing could go up in flames. I don’t really know how bad it is to be associated with a site that goes up. I guess not that bad for job prospects for an average employee, especially if they got to learn about putting out fires / many more parts of the system than an average big tech employee. But then experience hacking in minimal fixes to keep mountains of software going perhaps isn’t going to teach you as much as properly understanding and improving fewer systems and making more changes that will have impact over a longer timescale.
It wouldn’t surprise me to learn that some people are staying for risk-aversion reasons but I feel like most people are there because:
- they actually like Elon or believe in the future of Twitter under different management
- they see it as an opportunity for career growth (you can have proportionally larger impact on the business; fewer senior positions at the company; they will likely hire more people soon, just not at salaries that are effectively inflated by Elon’s purchase)
- they correctly infer that they would be in a worse position if they moved to some other firm. (I think most people thinking this underestimate themselves, however)
It seems like it could be possible for employees to have a big impact on the platform or the business. It also seems like the whole thing could go up in flames. I don’t really know how bad it is to be associated with a site that goes up. I guess not that bad for job prospects for an average employee, especially if they got to learn about putting out fires / many more parts of the system than an average big tech employee. But then experience hacking in minimal fixes to keep mountains of software going perhaps isn’t going to teach you as much as properly understanding and improving fewer systems and making more changes that will have impact over a longer timescale.
It really is criminal how much preferential treatment lott is getting both now and under the previous administration. This alone should be grounds for an investigation into the site
oska(1)
> Plus I don't think he realizes that the techniques that work for cars and rockets don't work in social media.
This argument made sense a month ago. Unfortunately he really hasn't shown any improvement since then that would lead me to agree with you on that point.
It's now a situation where he has to either find enough new people who agree with whatever his approach is or /win people back/ - both of those are quite a bit harder than keeping people who already loved the app.
I also hope he - or someone - is able to recover Twitter. But I'm not betting on it at this point.
This argument made sense a month ago. Unfortunately he really hasn't shown any improvement since then that would lead me to agree with you on that point.
It's now a situation where he has to either find enough new people who agree with whatever his approach is or /win people back/ - both of those are quite a bit harder than keeping people who already loved the app.
I also hope he - or someone - is able to recover Twitter. But I'm not betting on it at this point.
This.
Continuing to give him the benefit of the doubt just reeks of
> I can be tricked by anyone who looks like Mark Zuckerberg.
And yes, I know that was a joke but obviously the unconscious bias is quite strong, stronger than a lot of these investors want to admit.
Continuing to give him the benefit of the doubt just reeks of
> I can be tricked by anyone who looks like Mark Zuckerberg.
And yes, I know that was a joke but obviously the unconscious bias is quite strong, stronger than a lot of these investors want to admit.
looking forward to the Morgan Stanley era of Twitter ownership
really, the first job is to put an adult in charge
really, the first job is to put an adult in charge
That moment may be much closer than we think.
Twitter has less bots yets more activity than ever. In what dimension do these Hacker news posters live?
I have never had as many spam bots in my DMs and replies as I have right now.
Twitter keeps emailing me about how I need to log in and look at fake notifications I've already seen. I verified I was already unsubed from all the various fake notifications they generate (including the specific fake ones they generated).
By the numbers, I'm now receiving ~2.2 spam/DAY via DMs, up from ~2.4 spam/WEEK via DMs averaged over Jan-Oct.
Whilst I strongly disagree with the banning of links and accounts without good reason, it is true for me that Twitter has greatly improved since Musk took over.
Part of that is that interesting voices like PG’s are not so drowned out by background noise, so losing folks like PG begins to undo that improvement.
Part of that is that interesting voices like PG’s are not so drowned out by background noise, so losing folks like PG begins to undo that improvement.
Silicon Valley CA where the only politics is left, and even more left.
Twitter post Elon is Awesome,
They are crying foul now that rules are actually being evenly enforced instead of just on the right. The activists that claim to be journalists having to follow actual rules for once in their life
What is the saying... To the privileged equality looks like oppression, well that is what the Activists that work for mainstream media are feeling today on twitter
Twitter post Elon is Awesome,
They are crying foul now that rules are actually being evenly enforced instead of just on the right. The activists that claim to be journalists having to follow actual rules for once in their life
What is the saying... To the privileged equality looks like oppression, well that is what the Activists that work for mainstream media are feeling today on twitter
Do you still feel this way after they suspended PG?
I disagree with the rule, however the rule was broken so yes I still feel the same
My number one complaint about Twitter, YT, Twitch, or any other large platform is the arbitrary and uneven enforcement of rules, Person A does action and gets nothing, person B does same action get permabanned, often as a result of their political influence, notoriety, internal connections, or in the case of twitter often just being of the "correct" political party
I would prefer a different rules set, always have for twitter but if they are going to have a rule it absolutely unquestionably needs to be enforced equally across the platform.
My number one complaint about Twitter, YT, Twitch, or any other large platform is the arbitrary and uneven enforcement of rules, Person A does action and gets nothing, person B does same action get permabanned, often as a result of their political influence, notoriety, internal connections, or in the case of twitter often just being of the "correct" political party
I would prefer a different rules set, always have for twitter but if they are going to have a rule it absolutely unquestionably needs to be enforced equally across the platform.
The only person I saw suspended during that insane period was PG. Hundreds of people in my TL were saying "FU heres my mastodon ban me if you want Elon" and didn't see any repercussions whatsoever.
Yeah, I feel Twitter has improved under Elon’s leadership. In the past my account was banned and I could never get Twitter Support to explain what tweet caused my ban. Then I stopped using Twitter for a very long time. Perhaps a year ago created a new account and since Elon took over I am much less worried for unfair bans.
I like that many doctors who were silenced during COVID pandemic have been allowed to speak once more. Censorship was ridiculous under the old leadership. It seems Twitter is now much more a free speech platform and I feel Twitter is better for it being so.
I like that many doctors who were silenced during COVID pandemic have been allowed to speak once more. Censorship was ridiculous under the old leadership. It seems Twitter is now much more a free speech platform and I feel Twitter is better for it being so.
Unfortunately for those who idolised Elon, their world view is beginning to crumble. His actions are not justifiable. The way he treats people, the way he rules his companies, the way he governs his new "free speech" platform. The man is a tyrant. He's idolised for the things he's achieved but if he had not achieved them would he be given the same benefit of the doubt?
Hypocrisy. The way people treat this man versus others who act the same, it's two faced. The who's who of silicon valley were championing him right up until a few hours ago. Everything that he says or does that is deplorable, people eat up. But I guess if he's "changing the world" he should get to be a dick right?
Hypocrisy. The way people treat this man versus others who act the same, it's two faced. The who's who of silicon valley were championing him right up until a few hours ago. Everything that he says or does that is deplorable, people eat up. But I guess if he's "changing the world" he should get to be a dick right?
Imagine if it were Tim Cook who called Vern Unsworth, the British diver who helped rescue the trapped Thai kids in the flooded cave, a "pedo guy". Or, if you want to picture an amazing shitstorm, Barack Obama.
That whole Thai situation was when my opinion of Elon cratered. The pedo insult and subsequent lawsuits really gave insight into Elon's (lack of) character - the fact he would use that as an insult, the person he insulted, and the fact he wouldn't apologise and let it get to the stage of a lawsuit.
Whilst the 'submarine solution' he proposed shattered my belief that he was some engineering genius. It was plainly obvious to even a non-technical person that a cave system was not going to be suitable for a submarine - yet here was the 'genius' designing a solution without even checking the requirements. It was so fundamentally stupid that it's made me really believe that Tesla/SpaceX are a (technical) success in spite of Elon, not because.
Maybe the whole submarine thing was purely a marketing/publicity plot ... but trying to gain PR points off a live tragedy? Well that goes back to my point about his character.
Whilst the 'submarine solution' he proposed shattered my belief that he was some engineering genius. It was plainly obvious to even a non-technical person that a cave system was not going to be suitable for a submarine - yet here was the 'genius' designing a solution without even checking the requirements. It was so fundamentally stupid that it's made me really believe that Tesla/SpaceX are a (technical) success in spite of Elon, not because.
Maybe the whole submarine thing was purely a marketing/publicity plot ... but trying to gain PR points off a live tragedy? Well that goes back to my point about his character.
Or the easier explanation, that Elon has changed. He was my favorite billionaire back when all his prospects related to colonization of Mars and all his investments were aimed at creating new technology. But power can corrupt people, and he seems particularly prone to it. The entire Twitter episode is at odds with everything he did 10 years ago; Mars doesn't need a social network, and he's not innovating anything here. Not to mention that part where he's spent the last 7+ years sleeping around and fathering as many children as possible.
A different way of looking at "power corrupts" is that negative social interactions are an important part of the feedback loop that calibrates a person's sense of right and wrong. When a person decides that they don't want to hear conflicting opinions, they loose out on accurate feedback, and de-calibrate, unless they have a strong internal sense of empathy. Empathy is a disadvantage to becoming a billionaire in the first place, so very few of them have much of it. Guys like Musk and Bezos and Trump end up victims of their own success and echo chamber.
A different way of looking at "power corrupts" is that negative social interactions are an important part of the feedback loop that calibrates a person's sense of right and wrong. When a person decides that they don't want to hear conflicting opinions, they loose out on accurate feedback, and de-calibrate, unless they have a strong internal sense of empathy. Empathy is a disadvantage to becoming a billionaire in the first place, so very few of them have much of it. Guys like Musk and Bezos and Trump end up victims of their own success and echo chamber.
he basically just bought twitter because he wanted to ban people from making fun of him, every decision he makes is completely personally motivated and has absolutely no bearing on making the website better or reflecting the will of its users at all
And that's exactly my point, that his new decisions seem petty and self-centered, where his old decisions (sinking his significant wealth into risky car and rocket companies and sleeping in the factory instead of buying a Caribbean island and living out his years in paradise) seemed to be more about lofty goals and ambition. Something changed. $40B could have done sooo much more for his previous ambitions; it's a crime to see it wasted like this. If he starts gold-plating his toilets, we'll know he's really gone forever. Thank goodness he wasn't born in the USA.
We saw this writ large with the evangelical support for Donald Trump. It's crystal clear that DT is a huge "family values" hypocrite, yet he's seen to be a global change agent (of God, no less), so that justifies their uncritical support.
It's no different with Musk. His work with SpaceX and Tesla are seen as worthy goals at the whole-of-humanity scale, so that justifies (in some people's eyes) glossing over any character defects.
It was similar with Steve Jobs, a reputed workplace bully and tyrant.
It's no different with Musk. His work with SpaceX and Tesla are seen as worthy goals at the whole-of-humanity scale, so that justifies (in some people's eyes) glossing over any character defects.
It was similar with Steve Jobs, a reputed workplace bully and tyrant.
The worldview of people who like Musk, Trump, etc., will never crumble. It is built on a religious belief in contrarianism, as well as moral autism.
Techies are very susceptible to the cult of personality. How many times do we have to watch that play out?
As opposed to which group of people who are more immune to it?
We are the ones extracting all the surplus money from society, so it is more important for us to stay good than for a random person to stay good.
Techies get paid well, but in the conflict between capital and labor, we're not capital. Not most of us anyway, not by a large margin. Occasionally a blessed few might win the IPO lottery and become rich enough to get out of the rat race, but exceedingly few become rich enough on top of that to "extract surplus money from society".
[deleted]
Well he did very publicly call the cave diver who saved 12 children a pedophile because he was jealous of him. He also called for a leading infectious disease expert to be jailed, further endangering someone who was already under armed protection from previous threats. And there was that one time that he shared an unfounded conspiracy theory about an elderly man who was attacked with a hammer in his own home. There was also the time when he tried to trade a horse for a handjob from one of his employees.
That's all pretty clearly in villain territory.
That's all pretty clearly in villain territory.
He also tried to anonymously get news agencies to publish that the cave diver was a pedophile too [1].
[1] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanmac/elon-musk-thai-...
[1] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanmac/elon-musk-thai-...
No no no, all of that is just he's eccentric, not understood by the common person.
> Well he did very publicly call the cave diver who saved 12 children a pedophile because he was jealous of him.
this is false. he called him that after the cave diver told Musk to “stick his submarine where it hurts”.
it only takes 1 minute to search google.
this is false. he called him that after the cave diver told Musk to “stick his submarine where it hurts”.
it only takes 1 minute to search google.
All you’ve done is confirm that Musk called the cave diver a pedo, to which the only proper reply os “yeah that was fucked up”
https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jul/15/elon-musk...
> Musk visited the cave system himself. Unsworth said the billionaire “was asked to leave very quickly”. He also told CNN Musk could “stick his submarine where it hurts”.
> Musk visited the cave system himself. Unsworth said the billionaire “was asked to leave very quickly”. He also told CNN Musk could “stick his submarine where it hurts”.
I think pg is one of the best placed people to critique the situation because he knows what a start-up is and how to do one, he's in the same tier of society (top tier wealth), and he knows what is takes to run a social network.
The "it is going to be hardcore from here" email the CEO sent to Tesla employees 'worked', but the same email to Twitter employees resulted in significant resignations. I think the CEO was shocked and this underlies pg's point.
Given that it was a forced buy, the game was always that of a corporate raider approach - go in, make the unpleasant but needed decisions, and then sell out as soon as the value uptick became realisable. pg applauded the cut to staff IIRC.
CEO should have taken a leaf out of Rupert Murdoch's book - as the owner don't write the headlines - let the editor do that. Being behind the scenes to just make the most considered accurate business decisions was the right way.
If instead you are out in front of the public, you're emotional side will kick in due to the slings-and-arrows coming from the audience. Hence the wrong decisions will be made.
You can't wear both the hats of 'eccentric' Corporate Jester and Corporate Raider at the same time. The Dave Chapelle boo-ing incident just underlies this.
The "it is going to be hardcore from here" email the CEO sent to Tesla employees 'worked', but the same email to Twitter employees resulted in significant resignations. I think the CEO was shocked and this underlies pg's point.
Given that it was a forced buy, the game was always that of a corporate raider approach - go in, make the unpleasant but needed decisions, and then sell out as soon as the value uptick became realisable. pg applauded the cut to staff IIRC.
CEO should have taken a leaf out of Rupert Murdoch's book - as the owner don't write the headlines - let the editor do that. Being behind the scenes to just make the most considered accurate business decisions was the right way.
If instead you are out in front of the public, you're emotional side will kick in due to the slings-and-arrows coming from the audience. Hence the wrong decisions will be made.
You can't wear both the hats of 'eccentric' Corporate Jester and Corporate Raider at the same time. The Dave Chapelle boo-ing incident just underlies this.
What i hoped he would he'd do was to find another Gwynne Shotwell and have them run the company while taking his advice and kindly ignore it when it makes sense.
Alas, I don't see something like this panning out, that future is gone.
Alas, I don't see something like this panning out, that future is gone.
Tom Zhu, Tesla’s China president, is likely to be head of Tesla Automotive in the near future.
Where did you pick that tidbit up?
"Villain" isn't the word I'd use, but he has been increasingly indulging in gleeful cruelty and childish nonsense, both of which are very off putting.
I also admire his car and rocket businesses, but he seems to have gotten sucked deeply into the very online culture war grievance trap in the past few years, to the point that it now seems to be taking up essentially all of his time now. It's really a shame to see.
I also admire his car and rocket businesses, but he seems to have gotten sucked deeply into the very online culture war grievance trap in the past few years, to the point that it now seems to be taking up essentially all of his time now. It's really a shame to see.
Gleeful cruelty? Really? That's quite an overstatement for a bit of social media drama.
Real ppl get credible death threats in real life because of his tweets is gleeful cruelty ...
"Gleeful cruelty" is how his bullying tweets come off to me, yeah. He does the thing where he plays it off like he's just joking, just like every other bully out there, but he's being cruel, and enjoying it.
he replied to paulg's tweet about leaving the website with laughing emojis after banning him
he's only doing it to be an asshole at this point
he's only doing it to be an asshole at this point
Sure you didn't see a fake screenshot meme? I haven't been able to find anyone else talking about that, I couldn't find that on Elon's twitter replies page, and Elon just tweeted that he's reversing the ban (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1604616426114932737) which I'm not sure tracks with him posting exactly like that. (Not trying to defend him at all, just trying to keep a handle on what exactly it is he's doing.)
> Plus I don't think he realizes that the techniques that work for cars and rockets don't work in social media.
You have someone with Asperger's who is self aware enough to go on SNL and laugh about it, but for some reason also wants to spend 40B on owning and running a social platform, thinking they can "improve" by working on it part time despite having zero actual experience in the field. The ego is unbelievable.
> He could still salvage the situation
I hope so, but these billionaire ego megaprojects just don't seem to be die. Neom, Metaverse, dystopia-twitter...
You have someone with Asperger's who is self aware enough to go on SNL and laugh about it, but for some reason also wants to spend 40B on owning and running a social platform, thinking they can "improve" by working on it part time despite having zero actual experience in the field. The ego is unbelievable.
> He could still salvage the situation
I hope so, but these billionaire ego megaprojects just don't seem to be die. Neom, Metaverse, dystopia-twitter...
Well account is now suspended so I guess you were "made to leave"
Confirming archive: <https://archive.vn/ucUdh>
Elon is so incredibly thin-skinned that he's burning bridges with anyone who dares to not agree with him even once. First Bari Weiss, now Paul Graham. Paul clearly stated here & on Mastodon that he still believes in Elon Musk. This is classic self-sabotage of a deranged dictator.
What do you think the odds are that elon did it or even knew about it?
My own personal sense tells me no employee/subordinate would carry out such abrupt and drastic actions without explicit approval from above, no matter how much they want to please their boss. I could be wrong though.
Unfollowing Bari Weiss and suspending Paul Graham over very minor disagreements they voiced seems like a very personal & impulsive decision that I don't see why anyone besides Elon himself decided on it.
Unfollowing Bari Weiss and suspending Paul Graham over very minor disagreements they voiced seems like a very personal & impulsive decision that I don't see why anyone besides Elon himself decided on it.
> My own personal sense tells me no employee/subordinate would carry out such abrupt and drastic actions without explicit approval from above, no matter how much they want to please their boss. I could be wrong though.
outside of a very small bubble no one knows who PG is and I promise you his twitter status account doesn't matter if it was breaking the rules.
Go ask your mother if she knows who elon musk, bill gates, steve jobs, and paul graham are/were. No one outside of computer science/business people looking for VC know who he is.
outside of a very small bubble no one knows who PG is and I promise you his twitter status account doesn't matter if it was breaking the rules.
Go ask your mother if she knows who elon musk, bill gates, steve jobs, and paul graham are/were. No one outside of computer science/business people looking for VC know who he is.
I'm not sure what your point here is. Paul Graham is a notable user in the context of Twitter based on his follower count, user interactions, and legacy verified checkmark. Any employee handling the suspension of accounts would've noticed this is not some random spam bot or edgy no-name. They would not have done that autonomously without Musk's personal directives.
Conjecture and nonsense. twitter isn't asking the owner about banning accounts
wondering the same thing....
When you say "I still think Elon is a smart guy" every every time you write about your departure statement, you just communicate lots of things: too much respect and consideration for despicable actors just conveys fear.
Calling somebody like Elon eccentric is political correctness for rich, powerful people. It's a polite way of calling him a crazy asshole.
eccentric (adj) 1. Socially maladjusted + wealth.
<https://toot.cat/@dredmorbius/107453472642613292>
<https://toot.cat/@dredmorbius/107453472642613292>
Rich and deranged = eccentric
Poor and deranged = mad
Poor and deranged = mad
I don't understand how he can salvage this situation. You cannot simply go 'lol jk' with policy changes like this and reverse them because once you've lost user trust it cannot be easily regained. Individuals may not remember, but groups as a whole can have a long lasting memory and once the various subgroups like art twitter, influencer twitter etc leave they aren't coming back without serious enticement which Twitter can barely afford as they're burning money.
> I don't think he realizes that the techniques that work for cars and rockets don't work in social media.
That’s what I find so peculiar. I thought he made so much progress on cars and rockets by trusting experts to help him. But with Twitter there have been lots of experts who keep trying to tell him he’s seriously misunderstanding how social media works, and he will just give them a snarky tweet reply and act like he knows better. Maybe it’s the fact that on twitter everyone can see the discussion and he’s got to project this persona with bravado that he probably doesn’t do in a private meeting.
Maybe he will turn it around but for a lot of us he’s destroyed our hang out spot and we’ve embraced alternatives. Mastodon isn’t perfect but it feels really great to see a problem, open a GitHub issue, and get a genuine discussion of how to implement it.
And no one is going to come crashing in and tear it all down.
That’s what I find so peculiar. I thought he made so much progress on cars and rockets by trusting experts to help him. But with Twitter there have been lots of experts who keep trying to tell him he’s seriously misunderstanding how social media works, and he will just give them a snarky tweet reply and act like he knows better. Maybe it’s the fact that on twitter everyone can see the discussion and he’s got to project this persona with bravado that he probably doesn’t do in a private meeting.
Maybe he will turn it around but for a lot of us he’s destroyed our hang out spot and we’ve embraced alternatives. Mastodon isn’t perfect but it feels really great to see a problem, open a GitHub issue, and get a genuine discussion of how to implement it.
And no one is going to come crashing in and tear it all down.
In what context does a "smart guy" truly not realize that growing industrial manufacturing companies ("cars and rockets") from scratch is a fundamentally different challenge than running a mature web-only social media company?
Is he simply blinded by success?
Is he simply blinded by success?
You can be smart and impulsive at the same time. Remember, he tried to get out of the purchase probably after thinking about it.
He had plenty of time to think about it before deciding to fire all the people he fired in the cruelest way possible.
It may have been satisfying to him because he has a caricature in his head of who they are and what they did and it made his fans happy. But impulsive? No, there was plenty of time for smart to override impulsive here. This is something -- arbitrary, chaotic, intentionally cruel -- but it isn't impulsive.
It may have been satisfying to him because he has a caricature in his head of who they are and what they did and it made his fans happy. But impulsive? No, there was plenty of time for smart to override impulsive here. This is something -- arbitrary, chaotic, intentionally cruel -- but it isn't impulsive.
This is fair, but you would think that once he realized what kind of bag he was holding, he would also possess the clarity of mind to realize a need to step back and learn something about the internal workings of the industry, let alone the company he had just acquired without any due diligence.
If Elon had simply sat back and done "almost nothing" after the purchase, instead taking the time to really learn about something he had just bought, he would not be in this PR firestorm, let alone getting forced to sell off billions in TSLA stock.
If Elon had simply sat back and done "almost nothing" after the purchase, instead taking the time to really learn about something he had just bought, he would not be in this PR firestorm, let alone getting forced to sell off billions in TSLA stock.
> I'm not leaving Twitter
Yes you are. The smart guy that works on cars and rockets and who's not a villain and who's a political moderate and a totally reasonable guy, just made you.
> I would be delighted to go back to using Twitter regularly
It's not your decision to make, apparently.
Yes you are. The smart guy that works on cars and rockets and who's not a villain and who's a political moderate and a totally reasonable guy, just made you.
> I would be delighted to go back to using Twitter regularly
It's not your decision to make, apparently.
[deleted]
> I still think Elon is a smart guy.
> Plus I don't think he realizes that the techniques that work for cars and rockets don't work in social media.
Given his behavior and the results over the last ~month or however long he's owned Twitter, how can both of these possibly be true?
> Plus I don't think he realizes that the techniques that work for cars and rockets don't work in social media.
Given his behavior and the results over the last ~month or however long he's owned Twitter, how can both of these possibly be true?
My prediction is that Elon will realize how badly he is fucking up things and change. I was listening to All-in-podcast and there was a really good comment that was made - "He[Elon] needs to just get back to landing rockets on barges" which I agree, moderating and micromanaging a massive social media platform doesn't feel like a good use of his time.
Edit: annnnd he reversed the whole thing and apologized: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1604616863673208832
Edit: annnnd he reversed the whole thing and apologized: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1604616863673208832
Wow, what an absolute moron. If this is how he runs his other companies, it’s amazing anyone stays for more than a month.
So your initial comments have aged poorly…
From your own feed:
“ People are rooting for him to fail because he's a rich white guy and a political moderate. “
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1593206076983635968?s=46&t=...
I really really really dislike this whole trend to feel “victimized” while being some of the most successful people in earth. People are “turning” on Elon after being hugely beloved, purely cause he’s doing idiotic things. Plain an simple.
Furthermore, we should hold someone who’s the richest person on earth to higher standards.
From your own feed:
“ People are rooting for him to fail because he's a rich white guy and a political moderate. “
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1593206076983635968?s=46&t=...
I really really really dislike this whole trend to feel “victimized” while being some of the most successful people in earth. People are “turning” on Elon after being hugely beloved, purely cause he’s doing idiotic things. Plain an simple.
Furthermore, we should hold someone who’s the richest person on earth to higher standards.
"a political moderate"?? PG said this a month ago? (Nov. 17th) Wow. That tells us much more about PG's politics than I would ever have wanted to know.
Also, "rich white guy" adds a nice vibe of "all lives matter". It's a truth universally acknowledged that white people are victims. Esp. if they're male. And rich.
Also, "rich white guy" adds a nice vibe of "all lives matter". It's a truth universally acknowledged that white people are victims. Esp. if they're male. And rich.
There are plenty of rich white guys I'm not actively rooting to fail. In fact, until quite recently, I really believed Musk was doing good, was as smart as he presented himself, and was a decent human being. Quirky maybe, but I love quirky.
He has since exposed himself as a massive asshole and idiot.
He has since exposed himself as a massive asshole and idiot.
Hey Paul, legitimate question. What actions from Musk would it take for you to stop supporting him?
Becoming poor and powerless I'd bet...
Any of us plebs behaving so erratically and cruel wouldn't get support from the like of PG. But the rich sympathies with the rich. So for now Elon is eccentric and smart, not mad and dangerous
How do you feel about his "anti-woke" behaviour? His banning of journalists? His tweets with nazi coded language like "88"?
Would you return to a site where the owner uses his considerable power/money to promote fascism?
Would you return to a site where the owner uses his considerable power/money to promote fascism?
> His tweets with nazi coded language like "88"?
Do you have links to these tweets? I couldn't find any from a brief perusal of this recent tweets.
Do you have links to these tweets? I couldn't find any from a brief perusal of this recent tweets.
> I wonder what Earth will be like 88 million years from now
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1596439328338890752
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1596439328338890752
If the same techniques would have been applied to Tesla and SpaceX the result would be different. I guess there must be quite a few people much smarter than Musk behind the success of those companies.
Calling abusive and intolerant behaviour "eccentric" is really weak.
Calling abusive and intolerant behaviour "eccentric" is really weak.
You have in fact left Twitter, your account was just suspended. Crazy times...
I'm starting to believe being a Twitter user is the worst thing that happened to Elon.
Sounds like it's a theme with certain people, interestingly enough
[deleted]
Yeah, I don't think excessive Twitter use is healthy. Or at least not for a certain type of person.
Twitter is incidentally a tech company. Fundamentally, it's a "people communicating with each other in people-configurable groups" and that is quite unlike building vehicles.
> > He's eccentric, definitely
Eccentric people buy stuff and are too busy enjoying them .
This guy searches for mentions of himself to silence critics while sitting on 200bn dollars. When that wasn’t enough to silence everybody he went on to buy the platform.
If that is the end of the road then it’s better to get lost on the way like the Dan Bilzerians , and the other truly eccentric guys
Eccentric people buy stuff and are too busy enjoying them .
This guy searches for mentions of himself to silence critics while sitting on 200bn dollars. When that wasn’t enough to silence everybody he went on to buy the platform.
If that is the end of the road then it’s better to get lost on the way like the Dan Bilzerians , and the other truly eccentric guys
Nobody has ever pay nor will ever pay Elon to work on cars or rockets. He is solely responsible for working on people a job which by all accounts he does very poorly.
With twitter his poor performance is merely on display for the whole world in tweets. It is yet another poor decision in an entire life full of poor decisions ranging from paying a cut rate private investigator to investigate a hero spearheading the effort to save children and then publicly and falsely proclaiming that person a pedophile, then lying about pedophile just being used as a generic insult, allegedly trying to bribe an employee to have sex with him for a pony by her account, an entire series of failed relationships, abandoning his wife after their kid died by her account of the matter, spreading conspiracy theories that the psycho that attacked pelosi was a prostitute rather than a deranged conspiracy theorist.
He doesn't do anything but buy the services of people smarter and better than himself and take credit for their success while continually making poor choices and offering an example of terrible leadership.
You act as if his failure with twitter is forgivable because its a different sort of business from his other ventures but its really not. Nobody expects Elon to design a rocket either he's supposed to be an expert in leading people and he's stunningly poor at it.
There is little chance of turning twitter around with Elon at the helm. It was barely been profitable in its whole history and now its becoming a pariah to both the potential employees who could serve in that role and the advertisers who pay all of the bills. It's going to steadily lose money until Elon steps away and makes a firm commitment not to ratfuck it any longer and puts someone in charge that both sides trust. Then MAYBE it can stop hemorrhaging money. It will remain a black eye both personally to him and his business acumen.
Twitter introduced the world to the real Elon and its not a person worth knowing. If you have positive feelings towards him I would suggest its because as a fellow rich person you have more in common with him than with us even if you are a better man. I would suggest not lowering your own stock by defending those so obviously inferior to yourself.
With twitter his poor performance is merely on display for the whole world in tweets. It is yet another poor decision in an entire life full of poor decisions ranging from paying a cut rate private investigator to investigate a hero spearheading the effort to save children and then publicly and falsely proclaiming that person a pedophile, then lying about pedophile just being used as a generic insult, allegedly trying to bribe an employee to have sex with him for a pony by her account, an entire series of failed relationships, abandoning his wife after their kid died by her account of the matter, spreading conspiracy theories that the psycho that attacked pelosi was a prostitute rather than a deranged conspiracy theorist.
He doesn't do anything but buy the services of people smarter and better than himself and take credit for their success while continually making poor choices and offering an example of terrible leadership.
You act as if his failure with twitter is forgivable because its a different sort of business from his other ventures but its really not. Nobody expects Elon to design a rocket either he's supposed to be an expert in leading people and he's stunningly poor at it.
There is little chance of turning twitter around with Elon at the helm. It was barely been profitable in its whole history and now its becoming a pariah to both the potential employees who could serve in that role and the advertisers who pay all of the bills. It's going to steadily lose money until Elon steps away and makes a firm commitment not to ratfuck it any longer and puts someone in charge that both sides trust. Then MAYBE it can stop hemorrhaging money. It will remain a black eye both personally to him and his business acumen.
Twitter introduced the world to the real Elon and its not a person worth knowing. If you have positive feelings towards him I would suggest its because as a fellow rich person you have more in common with him than with us even if you are a better man. I would suggest not lowering your own stock by defending those so obviously inferior to yourself.
In your tweet you said "I give up."
Given that you're not giving up your Twitter account, nor something less tangible like your belief Elon is acting in good faith, nor even something the evidence keeps building against like his ability to run Twitter well - what exactly are you giving up, or giving up on?
Given that you're not giving up your Twitter account, nor something less tangible like your belief Elon is acting in good faith, nor even something the evidence keeps building against like his ability to run Twitter well - what exactly are you giving up, or giving up on?
Not leaving Twitter, just not reading or posting and using alternative platforms.
Not to play word police, but I think that's what people meant when they said 'leaving'. But if you mean that it's not necessarily forever, I understand what you're saying.
Not to play word police, but I think that's what people meant when they said 'leaving'. But if you mean that it's not necessarily forever, I understand what you're saying.
Good job OP. You managed to ressurect pg since 2 years ago
>Plus I don't think he realizes that the techniques that work for cars and rockets don't work in social media.
>It's remarkable how many people who've never run any kind of company think they know how to run a tech company better than someone who's run Tesla and SpaceX.
If the techniques for cars and rockets don't work in social media, why were people wrong to write him off despite his Tesla and SpaceX experience?
>It's remarkable how many people who've never run any kind of company think they know how to run a tech company better than someone who's run Tesla and SpaceX.
If the techniques for cars and rockets don't work in social media, why were people wrong to write him off despite his Tesla and SpaceX experience?
Twitter just has to be predictable, that's it. That's all anyone wants, IMO, when you boil the controversies down to its essence. People will always complain, but the brands, the journalists, the users, they all just want something they can understand.
That might come in time. Surely it can't continue to be this chaotic forever, right? At least then we'll know what this site's future is.
That might come in time. Surely it can't continue to be this chaotic forever, right? At least then we'll know what this site's future is.
I don't think Musk has any negative feedback loops anymore, it's highly unlikely said there is a single person who can tell him when he's screwing up.
Or maybe he needs something of Twitter going bust magnitude to get feedback now. I hope that happens so that he can go back to making great stuff again
Or maybe he needs something of Twitter going bust magnitude to get feedback now. I hope that happens so that he can go back to making great stuff again
Any first degree negative feedback loops. But reality has a way of poking its head in, like getting booed in public forums that should have been adoring you.
Fortunately second and third degree feedback loops are notoriously stupid, and wrong, and they’re the problem there, not you.
Fortunately second and third degree feedback loops are notoriously stupid, and wrong, and they’re the problem there, not you.
Great things like digging tunnels to put a few cars in them? :D
The man sells hype, and has always done so. It seems the mask is falling.
The man sells hype, and has always done so. It seems the mask is falling.
That seems to be mostly because he's firing anybody that is even mildly critical of him.
I can get on board with all of the above in principle, but I think you've made a strong case for suggesting it's in a tailspin.
It's theoretically salvageable, but I don't see a version of a salvaged Twitter that is compatible with his worldview.
He is a colourful, loud, opinionated public figure. That's great for his personal Twitter and his follower count, but it's terrible if you're trying to convince the world that you're a suitable custodian of a free public square.
Mark Zuckerberg is beige as often as he's able to be on just about everything. Tim Cook speaks on issues of privacy when it's relevant and otherwise says as little as possible. Reddit is as un-opinionated on content as they can possibly be.
Having any divisive opinion by definition divides your support base. Usually in half.
I can only assume Musk-brand libertarian free-for-all social media is a niche product (potentially a large niche, but a niche nonetheless) that's very probably worth some amount significantly less than $40 billion.
It's theoretically salvageable, but I don't see a version of a salvaged Twitter that is compatible with his worldview.
He is a colourful, loud, opinionated public figure. That's great for his personal Twitter and his follower count, but it's terrible if you're trying to convince the world that you're a suitable custodian of a free public square.
Mark Zuckerberg is beige as often as he's able to be on just about everything. Tim Cook speaks on issues of privacy when it's relevant and otherwise says as little as possible. Reddit is as un-opinionated on content as they can possibly be.
Having any divisive opinion by definition divides your support base. Usually in half.
I can only assume Musk-brand libertarian free-for-all social media is a niche product (potentially a large niche, but a niche nonetheless) that's very probably worth some amount significantly less than $40 billion.
> Plus I don't think he realizes that the techniques that work for cars and rockets don't work in social media.
How do you reconcile this with
> I still think Elon is a smart guy
How do you reconcile this with
> I still think Elon is a smart guy
He's now at https://mas.to/@paulg by the way. Twitter account suspended.
He has nothing to do with the quality of the cars or rockets. He’s done none of the “work” there. He gets attention with overpromises and straight up lies.
I've kept a pretty distanced opinion about Musk's Twitter dramas, figuring that the network effect and having access to the thoughts of whichever thinkers I enjoy reading is what matters. Most other stuff is ancillary to that, and challenging the ad-based funding model of media is a very interesting experiment.
But now that he's started banning the A list of intellectually interesting people, I don't see how it can end well. This decision needs to be reversed very soon, or the network effect will be destroyed.
Your tweets are the reason I bothered to register an account in the first place, so hoping that Musk figures this out sooner than the hopefully short time that's needed for most to accrete somewhere else.
But now that he's started banning the A list of intellectually interesting people, I don't see how it can end well. This decision needs to be reversed very soon, or the network effect will be destroyed.
Your tweets are the reason I bothered to register an account in the first place, so hoping that Musk figures this out sooner than the hopefully short time that's needed for most to accrete somewhere else.
Just going to leave this here for you @pg
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1604593057676300288?s=61...
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1604593057676300288?s=61...
> I still think Elon is a smart guy.
> I don't think he realizes that the techniques that work for cars and rockets don't work in social media.
Hmmm...
> I don't think he realizes that the techniques that work for cars and rockets don't work in social media.
Hmmm...
As Musk slowly (or rapidly depending on your point of view) turns Twitter into an expensive version of Truth Social and Parler, being "seen" there threatens to associate users with his overriding POV -- it's going to start sending a message just for being there. Running a forum that's even handed is pretty hard and requires a different kind of idealism.
I'm deleting my account in the hope it will keep that data safe. I have 0 confidence in his ability to run a massive application safely and securely.
What a shit show, as if he needed to add the managerial drama on top of getting rid of 75% of his staff.
I would say delete your account while you still can. Who knows what he will do your data.
What a shit show, as if he needed to add the managerial drama on top of getting rid of 75% of his staff.
I would say delete your account while you still can. Who knows what he will do your data.
Paul, on Nov. 16 you mentioned on twitter, "It's remarkable how many people who've never run any kind of company think they know how to run a tech company better than someone who's run Tesla and SpaceX." Source: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1592852796185128961
In hindsight do you now think that Musk is not suitable anymore? He is too thin-skinned to be running a public forum and not being able to anticipate consequences that his new rules/actions have on the brand value of twitter and musk. He and Peter Theil are extremely anti-democratic as it all comes down to money and power trips. What are your thoughts?
In hindsight do you now think that Musk is not suitable anymore? He is too thin-skinned to be running a public forum and not being able to anticipate consequences that his new rules/actions have on the brand value of twitter and musk. He and Peter Theil are extremely anti-democratic as it all comes down to money and power trips. What are your thoughts?
I was just about to share your tweet, and... account suspended. Things sure do escalate quickly, these days!
He’s not eccentric, he’s a troll.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1604329282796457984?s=46...
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1604329282796457984?s=46...
I'm impressed that one of your tweets could generate almost 600 comments in 1 hour. This should be an interesting stress test of HN. Often when something generates this level of interaction performance suffers.
The man making the decisions in Twitter may be smart but that's irrelevant because of the fact that he's irresponsible. Others might find it outlandish but social media is a tool for tyrants in some parts of the world such as where I'm living. By tyrant, I don't mean someone who merely violates the right to free speech. Thousands have lost their lives because of the irresponsible implementation of ideas in places where loss of revenue is the only consequence for mistakes.
I've deactivated the account that I created last month.
I agree that he may still salvage the situation, and I hope to reactivate or create a new account if/when that happens. For now, though, the best thing I can do is reinforce the signal that this was a major misstep, for a reason he should be well aware of: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1533616384747442176
I agree that he may still salvage the situation, and I hope to reactivate or create a new account if/when that happens. For now, though, the best thing I can do is reinforce the signal that this was a major misstep, for a reason he should be well aware of: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1533616384747442176
I’m curious to hear your thoughts on him banning Ukrainian phone numbers, effectively making it so that Ukrainians can’t sign up to share information about the war.
I would chalk that up to slow service degradation more than malice. Twitter is likely slowly running aground.
Ever Given meets Costa Concordia.
You with all the transportation disaster metaphors today!
It is not appropriate or ethical for ship captains to use euphemisms or other language that may downplay or minimize the severity of a ship running aground or any other maritime incident or accident. Ship captains have a serious responsibility to communicate clearly and accurately about the status of their vessel and to take all necessary actions to ensure the safety of their crew and passengers. Using euphemisms or other language that may mislead or confuse people about the true nature of an incident or accident could potentially compromise safety and hinder effective communication and response.
Love, DangGPT.
You with all the transportation disaster metaphors today!
It is not appropriate or ethical for ship captains to use euphemisms or other language that may downplay or minimize the severity of a ship running aground or any other maritime incident or accident. Ship captains have a serious responsibility to communicate clearly and accurately about the status of their vessel and to take all necessary actions to ensure the safety of their crew and passengers. Using euphemisms or other language that may mislead or confuse people about the true nature of an incident or accident could potentially compromise safety and hinder effective communication and response.
Love, DangGPT.
He chose his side in that war and it’s totally legal to use a private company to aid genocide.
It's astonishing how much benefit of the doubt Elon Musk gets from his cult of personality. Whether or not he's smart, the things he's doing at Twitter are /glaringly/ not smart from a business perspective: He's driven away advertisers, alienated users, crippled system resilience by firing so many engineers, and set the stage for dozens of lawsuits that will run the gamut from employment law to SEC oversight to EU compliance. Twitter is burning, and it's increasingly hard to see how genius Elon Musk is going to salvage it when he keeps throwing gasoline on the fire.
If you were presented this whole debacle in an anonymized format, without Elon Musk's name attached, how would you judge these actions?
If you were presented this whole debacle in an anonymized format, without Elon Musk's name attached, how would you judge these actions?
Not everyone that does not hate Elon Musk is following a personality cult. I have not much of an opinion of Elon Musk in general and kinda ignore the person himself, but what he did to Twitter is awesome for everyone, but the woke bubble. It's definitely fun to watch it.
I think the fact that pg himself is frustrated and pausing his Twitter presence is evidence enough that this is not awesome for everyone except those in the “woke bubble”. Paul Graham is very obviously not a “woke” guy. You are very obviously inside an “anti-woke” bubble yourself if this nonsense is your main takeaway from Musk’s tactics as Twitter CEO.
It is evidence that Paul Graham is frustrated with Twitter politics. Now using him as evidence for anything else is more of a personality cult around Paul Graham.
> You are very obviously inside an “anti-woke” bubble[...]
Anyone outside the woke bubble is considered anti-woke. If you're not part of them you're the enemy. I find it really refreshing to see them whine about reinstating accounts of "the enemy" which is as I said basically anyone of differing opinion. It's also fun that people on here throwing a tantrum about this. So sweet.
PS.: Delicious was the word I was looking for. The only tool they have here is downvoting, which is like confirmation in this case. Delicious!
> You are very obviously inside an “anti-woke” bubble[...]
Anyone outside the woke bubble is considered anti-woke. If you're not part of them you're the enemy. I find it really refreshing to see them whine about reinstating accounts of "the enemy" which is as I said basically anyone of differing opinion. It's also fun that people on here throwing a tantrum about this. So sweet.
PS.: Delicious was the word I was looking for. The only tool they have here is downvoting, which is like confirmation in this case. Delicious!
Despite what you’ve been told, Twitter is just a platform. Political ideologies won’t be affected by whether it succeeds or fails. Indeed, failure may even reinforce the woke bubble because no moderation is toxic to advertisers and you’ll have proof.
[deleted]
"Eccentric" is not the best way to describe him. He's full of hate, vengeful, reactionary, abusive, and surrounded by yes men/women.
You've slowly been piecing each of them together over the past month, but clearly still don't get it. I don't know why you're still giving so much benefit of the doubt, other than the fact that he's also a billionaire.
You've slowly been piecing each of them together over the past month, but clearly still don't get it. I don't know why you're still giving so much benefit of the doubt, other than the fact that he's also a billionaire.
Elon is smart but irrational. This goes for a lot of people who are highly accomplished and yet have bizarre opinions and behavior
I think adding support for ActivityPub to twitter would be a smart move but that would require a complete U-turn
I think Twitter would find itself de-federated from a lot of the Fediverse pretty quickly as long as Ol' Muskie is in charge.
Two years ago you published an essay that seemed to argue that criticism against Elon Musk was simply from “Haters,” jealous of his success.
http://paulgraham.com/fh.html
In light of recent events, have you considered updating the essay?
http://paulgraham.com/fh.html
In light of recent events, have you considered updating the essay?
After seeing PG claim that the criticism of Musk was rooted in politics yesterday, I think it's clear that he's become a Musk fanboy. Ironically, this very article is pretty useful in prescribing how to react towards PG himself.
Edit: Maybe the suspension will break PG's fanboy-ism, and he'll emerge humbler and wiser.
Edit: Maybe the suspension will break PG's fanboy-ism, and he'll emerge humbler and wiser.
That's definitely not what he argues there. It's quite possible for 95% of hate to be mostly unfounded while that person is still worthy of hate. It's just that the existence of haters does not necessarily mean that person is hate-worthy.
The different rates and ways that various types of information travels through media (both social and not) and gets distorted by it are fascinating and there's probably been some good books written on them...
The different rates and ways that various types of information travels through media (both social and not) and gets distorted by it are fascinating and there's probably been some good books written on them...
If my memory serves, Graham would sometimes link to his essay when people criticized Musk. It’s hard for me to check at the moment, as Graham’s Twitter account has been suspended.
Now that Graham’s account is unsuspended, here’s a tweet from a month ago surrounding Musk.
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1591100636854374400
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1591100636854374400
As I said, 95% of criticism might by illegitimate while the 5% isn't. Paul could have been linking for the X% of Musk hate that's ill founded based on his personal knowledge of the guy.
In the article, he makes no breakdown like you describe. He appears to have created a straw man which he alludes to whenever once of his associates receive criticism.
In light of Musk fulfilling the predictions of his worst “haters,” maybe this merits clarifying the essay.
In light of Musk fulfilling the predictions of his worst “haters,” maybe this merits clarifying the essay.
He certainly didn't fulfil the predictions of tge worst haters. Those predicted twitter going offline over a month ago.
I’m referring to him treating Twitter as his plaything, changing rules on a whim to suit his latest impulses, creating a whole mess of problems such as scaring advertisers away.
I have to say it’s surprising the the site hasn’t had downtime. Maybe that’s a testament to how resilient the previous engineers made things. I think most experienced engineers would agree that if you lost 75% of your company in the span of a month and a half, you’re going to lose critical institutional knowledge, and Twitter has a lot of moving parts. So kudos to Musk for winning that round of Russian roulette? At least so far.
I have to say it’s surprising the the site hasn’t had downtime. Maybe that’s a testament to how resilient the previous engineers made things. I think most experienced engineers would agree that if you lost 75% of your company in the span of a month and a half, you’re going to lose critical institutional knowledge, and Twitter has a lot of moving parts. So kudos to Musk for winning that round of Russian roulette? At least so far.
> He's eccentric, definitely, but that should be news to no one.
Being "eccentric" usually means non-mainstream clothing, music taste, a big ass selection of historic cars or similar things.
Musk? Dude literally interacts with or unbans high-profile neo-Nazis and antisemites. That's not "eccentric" by any definition, that's enabling the vilest of the vile. No, banning Kanye again doesn't excuse all the other Nazi accounts.
Being "eccentric" usually means non-mainstream clothing, music taste, a big ass selection of historic cars or similar things.
Musk? Dude literally interacts with or unbans high-profile neo-Nazis and antisemites. That's not "eccentric" by any definition, that's enabling the vilest of the vile. No, banning Kanye again doesn't excuse all the other Nazi accounts.
> unbans high-profile neo-Nazis and antisemites
I think this is often ignored given the daily deluge of chaos but this move was only ever arguably valid in the context of being a free speech absolutist. It's clear at this point that free speech absolutism is not at all what he's interested in.
I think this is often ignored given the daily deluge of chaos but this move was only ever arguably valid in the context of being a free speech absolutist. It's clear at this point that free speech absolutism is not at all what he's interested in.
You were just suspended though, so at least in the short term it's out of your hands.
So I agree that he did smart things in the past. However he is totally incompetent managing Twitter in a rational business way. For a while there I thought he might be trying to get the debt reduced substantially and was preserving cash in the meantime. The last few weeks and the constant own-goal-via-shitposting that he does are solid evidence that any strategic plot has been well and truly lost.
I get the sense that he wants to “own the libs” to build credibility with US “conservatives” — despite the fact that the libs regularly own themselves more thoroughly than he can — but he’s mostly just scoring goals against his own pocket book right now. The people I feel sorry for are TSLA investors.
Edit: oh and the rank and file Twitter employees who are either having to put up with his BS or haven’t been paid the severance they were promised. He seems to be taking a “sue me” approach to that, which is really really shitty for a typical employee who uses their income to pay rent/mortgages and buy groceries. I hope he loses another billion in back payments and penalties on that shit, because he’s setting awful examples right now.
I get the sense that he wants to “own the libs” to build credibility with US “conservatives” — despite the fact that the libs regularly own themselves more thoroughly than he can — but he’s mostly just scoring goals against his own pocket book right now. The people I feel sorry for are TSLA investors.
Edit: oh and the rank and file Twitter employees who are either having to put up with his BS or haven’t been paid the severance they were promised. He seems to be taking a “sue me” approach to that, which is really really shitty for a typical employee who uses their income to pay rent/mortgages and buy groceries. I hope he loses another billion in back payments and penalties on that shit, because he’s setting awful examples right now.
I think we can stop thinking he’s running Twitter for revenue. This is clearly politically motivated and he’s even quite open it.
Fair enough. I don't think he will be able to salvage this and I've deleted my account to reduce the temptation to return.
A reputation is not like a piece of software that you fix and then re-run as though it never broke in the first place. Elon has utterly wrecked his reputation over the last couple of months (and probably longer than that) and it is getting worse, not better.
Edit: I guess Paul won't be going back to Twitter because his account just got suspended...
See for yourself: https://twitter.com/paulg/
A reputation is not like a piece of software that you fix and then re-run as though it never broke in the first place. Elon has utterly wrecked his reputation over the last couple of months (and probably longer than that) and it is getting worse, not better.
Edit: I guess Paul won't be going back to Twitter because his account just got suspended...
See for yourself: https://twitter.com/paulg/
Well said, good analogy.
There’s the immediate issues of the policy. But there’s the bigger issue of the thought process that led to the policy. One of Elons central criticism of old Twitter management was unfair content moderation policy. And almost immediately he enacts a far worse content policy than anything old management did, in a brazen display of hypocrisy.
Even if he reverses course on this one issue, he’s demonstrated that any previous advocacy for free speech was completely disingenuous. He wants to run Twitter like he’s the dictator of a banana republic. And any time you spend on the platform strengthens his ability to do so.
It was disturbing and confusing watching people like pg and Lex Fridman seemingly throw their apparent principles to the wind tolerating this type of behavior. I do sympathize there was some ambiguity about Elons plans for Twitter before this last week but with the banning of journalists and the banning of links to Mastodon, that ambiguity has been removed.
I’m relieved pg took a stand here but like you I wish it was a much stronger one.
There’s the immediate issues of the policy. But there’s the bigger issue of the thought process that led to the policy. One of Elons central criticism of old Twitter management was unfair content moderation policy. And almost immediately he enacts a far worse content policy than anything old management did, in a brazen display of hypocrisy.
Even if he reverses course on this one issue, he’s demonstrated that any previous advocacy for free speech was completely disingenuous. He wants to run Twitter like he’s the dictator of a banana republic. And any time you spend on the platform strengthens his ability to do so.
It was disturbing and confusing watching people like pg and Lex Fridman seemingly throw their apparent principles to the wind tolerating this type of behavior. I do sympathize there was some ambiguity about Elons plans for Twitter before this last week but with the banning of journalists and the banning of links to Mastodon, that ambiguity has been removed.
I’m relieved pg took a stand here but like you I wish it was a much stronger one.
I think even your critical statement gives Elon too much credit. I think he might genuinely think he is doing good, but is just completely out of his depth and is at the same time convinced that he will succeed in improving it. Any thread by Yishsn has more insight to offer on content moderation than Musk is exhibiting and could have easily predicted the failed he makes. Mental issues or his (warranted) arrogance from his incredible past success are clouding his judgment. He also has clearly a lot of penned up culture war anger and might not be aware of that bias either. His behavior is just too erratic to seem like any kind of evil plan. After all he tried to get out of buying Twitter fort months.
PG’s account is now suspended by Twitter.
The ironic thing is that one of his latest posts was about dumb people and identity politics.
The whole group of tech luminaries turned political whiners just goes to show that it’s time for a new generation and they should not bend the knee for the last one but forge their own way.
The ironic thing is that one of his latest posts was about dumb people and identity politics.
The whole group of tech luminaries turned political whiners just goes to show that it’s time for a new generation and they should not bend the knee for the last one but forge their own way.
I agree. The current crop is too anti-democratic.
If enough high profile people took a stronger stance that might just be enough to make Musk see the light. I'm not going to hold my breath for that though.
What “light” would he see?
That censoring whatever and whomever he wants on a whim is not the same as guaranteeing a platform without censorship?
And he will somehow change his personality and thinking and put the integrity of the platform above his own small thinking limited to self interest?
I really don’t see it. His reputation of an unstable, vindictive, insecure person with the power to annihilate any voice he dislikes and the track record of doing so is precise.
How does one climb back from that kind of chasm and establish public trust?
Twitter used to have certain policies. Now seemingly replaced by “whatever Elon likes, today”.
This is 100% toxic, I stand destruction of trust.
That censoring whatever and whomever he wants on a whim is not the same as guaranteeing a platform without censorship?
And he will somehow change his personality and thinking and put the integrity of the platform above his own small thinking limited to self interest?
I really don’t see it. His reputation of an unstable, vindictive, insecure person with the power to annihilate any voice he dislikes and the track record of doing so is precise.
How does one climb back from that kind of chasm and establish public trust?
Twitter used to have certain policies. Now seemingly replaced by “whatever Elon likes, today”.
This is 100% toxic, I stand destruction of trust.
That he can't do this and drop it.
He doesn’t know he can’t do it. In his distorted view of reality, he’s doing it perfectly well.
I’m addressing his inability to perceive an alternative.
I’m addressing his inability to perceive an alternative.
What “light” would he see?
That censoring whatever and whomever he wants on a whim is not the same as guaranteeing a platform without censorship?
And he will somehow change his personality and thinking and put the integrity of the platform above his own small thinking limited to self interest?
I really don’t see it. His reputation of an unstable, vindictive, insecure person with the power to annihilate any voice he dislikes and the track record of doing so is precise.
How does one climb back from that kind of chasm and establish public trust?
Twitter used to have certain policies. Now seemingly replaced to “whatever Elon likes, today”.
This is 100% toxic, I stand destruction of trust.
That censoring whatever and whomever he wants on a whim is not the same as guaranteeing a platform without censorship?
And he will somehow change his personality and thinking and put the integrity of the platform above his own small thinking limited to self interest?
I really don’t see it. His reputation of an unstable, vindictive, insecure person with the power to annihilate any voice he dislikes and the track record of doing so is precise.
How does one climb back from that kind of chasm and establish public trust?
Twitter used to have certain policies. Now seemingly replaced to “whatever Elon likes, today”.
This is 100% toxic, I stand destruction of trust.
Stand up for your principles and reason from them.
Elon Musk's social media policy is now so sensitive that repeatedly linking to other platforms will get you banned. This is coming from the guy who thinks it's fair play to repeatedly call a rescue worker a pedophile -- of all things that shouldn't be considered fair play on or off social media.
samstave(2)
I un-sub'd from PG, Lex, Musk etc. They are all shades of Peter Theil and Anti-democratic when it comes to them / or their product.
pg calling him a smart guy is quite disappointing.
The guy is happy to consume and repeat QAnon propaganda(E.g. Pelosi’s husband).
Is happy to lie(journalists who didn’t fix him got banned).
Takes emotional decisions to only reverse them hours later.
Lacks any logical thinking, keeps gaslighting and cannot keep a consistent line(he is a free speech absolutist who believes hate speech and call to insurrection is ok but not doxxing)
Has no morals and uses anything under his power to achieve his goals(banning external links to social media)
The guy is happy to consume and repeat QAnon propaganda(E.g. Pelosi’s husband).
Is happy to lie(journalists who didn’t fix him got banned).
Takes emotional decisions to only reverse them hours later.
Lacks any logical thinking, keeps gaslighting and cannot keep a consistent line(he is a free speech absolutist who believes hate speech and call to insurrection is ok but not doxxing)
Has no morals and uses anything under his power to achieve his goals(banning external links to social media)
He also predicted no COVID cases by April 2020 when a rock knew that yes it will take a long time.
It's a pretty technical argument but being an asshole does not necessarily mean you aren't smart.
But buying twitter for billions more than it's worth and driving it into the ground _might_ mean that you aren't smart
I think my arguments above demonstrate that he is not as smart as people portray him.
Definitely a point for the prosecution.
The question is: was Musk in the past as smart as he is today or is that changing. This could point to either mental health issues or drug usage or some other factor. But this is becoming farcical.
The question is: was Musk in the past as smart as he is today or is that changing. This could point to either mental health issues or drug usage or some other factor. But this is becoming farcical.
>This could point to either mental health issues or drug usage or some other factor.
My money's on inclusive or.
My money's on inclusive or.
> banning of links to Mastodon
I’d like to point out that this is what everyone says is happening, but actually that’s not what’s happening.
Twitter allows linking to other social networks as long as that’s not the only thing you do. Twitter is suspending accounts which were made sorely for linking to another network. (The mastodon account was only used for promoting mastodon’s alternative social network).
Here is a thread by twitter which explains the policy: https://twitter.com/twittersupport/status/160453126541959168...
This FUD is almost on crypto twitter levels, and this is very behavior is very unusual for HN.
(I don’t mean you specifically, a lot of people and even major news outlets got this wrong)
I’d like to point out that this is what everyone says is happening, but actually that’s not what’s happening.
Twitter allows linking to other social networks as long as that’s not the only thing you do. Twitter is suspending accounts which were made sorely for linking to another network. (The mastodon account was only used for promoting mastodon’s alternative social network).
Here is a thread by twitter which explains the policy: https://twitter.com/twittersupport/status/160453126541959168...
This FUD is almost on crypto twitter levels, and this is very behavior is very unusual for HN.
(I don’t mean you specifically, a lot of people and even major news outlets got this wrong)
If you try to post a link to a mastodon profile, it will fail. Old links will bring up a "this site may be harmful" interstitial. Most large instances seem affected.
I only tested insta, which worked fine for me.
Also, it looks like you can trash my post above, Graham got suspended. I really did not expect this.
Also, it looks like you can trash my post above, Graham got suspended. I really did not expect this.
I think neither did Paul. But if he did he probably at least has a backup of his stuff.
I read some advice that it's better to lock the account than delete it, especially if you had a decent number of followers. Reduces the likelihood of impersonation.
Good point, well, too late for that I guess.
But at the rate Twitter is heading for the scene of the crash I don't think it will matter for much longer.
But at the rate Twitter is heading for the scene of the crash I don't think it will matter for much longer.
It is not appropriate or ethical for pilots to use euphemisms or other language that may downplay or minimize the severity of an aviation incident or accident. Pilots have a serious responsibility to communicate clearly and accurately about the status of a flight, and to take all necessary actions to ensure the safety of their passengers and crew. Using euphemisms or other language that may mislead or confuse people about the true nature of an incident or accident could potentially compromise safety and hinder effective communication and response.
Love, DangGPT.
Love, DangGPT.
Not necessarily, I think you can reactivate your account within 30 days. If you had a blue checkmark I believe reactivation is possible for one year.
Is it just me or pg's twitter account is suspended now?
Definitely not just you, I see the same thing.
I feel terrible for Paul — imagine having a decade of work wiped out overnight. Hopefully it’s not permanent.
Do you have a Mastodon account yet? I'd like to continue to follow you.
I'm still on the fence about what to do. As I've written elsewhere today I'm not currently in the best of health and social media takes up a lot of time and energy, also I am wondering whether I should simply not let that go and concentrate on more real world stuff. I do still blog every now and then and I'm on HN in waves depending on how much free time I have.
> social media takes up a lot of time and energy, also I am wondering whether I should simply not let that go and concentrate on more real world stuff.
I dont see why more people arent doing this. How much value are these places really providing you in your life. I think its mostly fomo. Maybe theres a gem somewhere in there.
I dont see why more people arent doing this. How much value are these places really providing you in your life. I think its mostly fomo. Maybe theres a gem somewhere in there.
I've gotten a ton of mileage out of social media, met lots of interesting people, made friends from all over the world, made start-up investments (some good, some bad), helped people, have been helped by people and in general found that there are interesting stories everywhere. But that was when I was still swimming in time and now the trade-off is different. As I wrote, I'm on the fence, but the value is/was definitely there.
I will say since Mastodon blew up, I've found a lot less need for HN in my life. I'm still getting all the interesting tech news and projects, but I'm not doing battle with crazy fanatics. It's more pleasant, and I probably spend less overall time on it because of it.
Same for me and I was surprised how many people I know were already there. I didn't do the statistics for a while but for the people I follow on Twitter it was 10% on 22-11-06 and 23% on 22-11-29.
Which instance did you choose and why that one?
I've been on mastodon.social for like five years. The choice was entirely practical: I didn't want to deal with server shutdowns or defederations, so I joined the biggest instance which is pretty core to the whole network.
Laughably, this is a very centralizing choice. And now I am starting to feel the downsides: Mastodon.social has a really hard time coping with server load when Elon does something dumb!
Fosstodon and Hachyderm would be really good choices though too, I follow a lot of people on both, and they're well-run by decent folks.
I do think articles hype up the choice a lot more than necessary though. The differences are primarily "the moderators", and most people don't do stuff to get moderated anyways. And the platform includes good tools for changing instances too.
Laughably, this is a very centralizing choice. And now I am starting to feel the downsides: Mastodon.social has a really hard time coping with server load when Elon does something dumb!
Fosstodon and Hachyderm would be really good choices though too, I follow a lot of people on both, and they're well-run by decent folks.
I do think articles hype up the choice a lot more than necessary though. The differences are primarily "the moderators", and most people don't do stuff to get moderated anyways. And the platform includes good tools for changing instances too.
Ok. Thank you for answering!
Not ocdtrekkie and I hope you don't mind me adding my opinion: I'm on my own instance but I don't host it myself and that's what I'd recommend. Your home is your castle.
Just use any of the hosters, set up the DNS record and be done. It's pretty similar to hosted e-mail under your own domain and even cheaper than a Twitter Blue subscription.
Just use any of the hosters, set up the DNS record and be done. It's pretty similar to hosted e-mail under your own domain and even cheaper than a Twitter Blue subscription.
Which hoster do you use?
I had heard only good things about masto.host but they had closed their subscriptions, so I signed up with both Ossrox and Weingärtner IT to give both a try.
I have not decided yet which one to keep because they were both flawless so far. I ordered from both at almost the same time and they both activated my accounts almost at the same time about a day later.
Main instance I use currently is the Ossrox one, but that is just coincidence.
I'm not in any way affiliated with any of those companies and don't know anyone working there personally.
I have not decided yet which one to keep because they were both flawless so far. I ordered from both at almost the same time and they both activated my accounts almost at the same time about a day later.
Main instance I use currently is the Ossrox one, but that is just coincidence.
I'm not in any way affiliated with any of those companies and don't know anyone working there personally.
Thanks! I'll point DonHopkins at this.
Health and well-being come first. I just wanted to let you know that your comments and contributions are always appreciated!
Why Mastadon rather than nostr or farcaster?
> A reputation is not like a piece of software that you fix and then re-run as though it never broke in the first place
In a way it is, but it differs from software in that fixing it involves more than reverting the action by which you broke it.
In a way it is, but it differs from software in that fixing it involves more than reverting the action by which you broke it.
Any good examples?
'Reputation is like a crystal vase, you can drop it, and glue it back together again but it will never again be the same vase that it was before you dropped it'.
'Reputation is like a crystal vase, you can drop it, and glue it back together again but it will never again be the same vase that it was before you dropped it'.
Both Bill Gates (IT robber baron) and Mike Tyson (wife beater, ear biter and convicted rapist) seem to enjoy pretty good reputations these days.
Musk's reputational problem is chiefly due to looking quite incompetent at the moment, not his moral failings.
Musk's reputational problem is chiefly due to looking quite incompetent at the moment, not his moral failings.
> Both Bill Gates (IT robber baron) and Mike Tyson (wife beater, ear biter and convicted rapist) seem to enjoy pretty good reputations these days.
Not in my book...
Not in my book...
Neither in mine, but that hardly matters, does it?
And nevertheless, I think that if polio gets eradicated despite Obama, the world will own Bill Gates a debt of gratitude. Don't you?
And nevertheless, I think that if polio gets eradicated despite Obama, the world will own Bill Gates a debt of gratitude. Don't you?
"Reputation is like a refrigerator. About 6 feet tall. 300 pounds. They make ice. And when if your refrigerator isn't running, you will get spoilage."
Hi jacquesm, I noticed that you have both a strong background in business and a negative opinion of Elon Musk. As someone who is interested in understanding different perspectives, I would love to hear more about your thoughts on this topic. Could you please share more about the actions or decisions by Elon that have led you to form this negative opinion? I'm not looking to engage in an argument, but rather just to gain a better understanding of your perspective. Thank you for your time and consideration.
Is there anything about this comment that is attracting the down votes?
I would like to avoid future mistakes.
I would like to avoid future mistakes.
Don't say anything that could be seen as positive about Elon Musk unless you are the founder of this website.
I'm really not trying to say anything positive about him. I'm guessing there are things I don't know and I would like to understand them.
Do not try to understand Musk any more than you try and understand Putin, Hitler or Trump, instead you must hate him and believe every negative thing you hear about him. There must be no positive traits or deed ascribed tot them. No negative trait or deed can be questioned. Only then will the social media upvotes flow!
(You can replace Hitler, Trump and Putin with Obama, Soros and Hillary if you're on American conservative social media)
(It really is odd how the hated enemy can never have a single positive chatacteristic... seems to be a universal)
(You can replace Hitler, Trump and Putin with Obama, Soros and Hillary if you're on American conservative social media)
(It really is odd how the hated enemy can never have a single positive chatacteristic... seems to be a universal)
> Elon has utterly wrecked his reputation over the last couple of months (and probably longer than that) and it is getting worse, not better.
Lol. This could be the worst prediction from an otherwise smart person I've ever seen. Please elaborate and define it mathematically. (My guess in trying to do so you'll either discover the errors in your thinking or double down on your intellectual dishonesty)
Lol. This could be the worst prediction from an otherwise smart person I've ever seen. Please elaborate and define it mathematically. (My guess in trying to do so you'll either discover the errors in your thinking or double down on your intellectual dishonesty)
No personal attacks, please.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
You are right. Yet, why is his not a personal attack on Elon?
It wasn't a neutral statement but I don't think I'd call it a personal attack. It's a claim about reputation.
There's also a significant difference between attacking a fellow user in a flamewar style comment vs. talking about a powerful public figure; we don't allow the worst kinds of personal attack in the latter case either*, but the bar is necessarily higher.
* https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
There's also a significant difference between attacking a fellow user in a flamewar style comment vs. talking about a powerful public figure; we don't allow the worst kinds of personal attack in the latter case either*, but the bar is necessarily higher.
* https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
[deleted]
> He could still salvage the situation.
That would involve him spending the time to learn how social media works. No doubt he's smart enough, but it seems like he may no longer have the attention span required to learn this.
That would involve him spending the time to learn how social media works. No doubt he's smart enough, but it seems like he may no longer have the attention span required to learn this.
You can fix policies, but trust is very difficult to build back. Elon is very lucky there's not a viable alternative to Twitter, otherwise there would be a true Myspace to Facebook style exodus.
Yes. Just happened.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1604616863673208832
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1604616863673208832
I think a lot of us would love to see you post more on HN!
Twitter may be bigger and more discoverable, but the discussion pales in comparison to what happens here. This is a much more special place.
Twitter may be bigger and more discoverable, but the discussion pales in comparison to what happens here. This is a much more special place.
I think all social media have terms and conditions similar to this, it just seemed a bit dramatic the way they laid it out.
I enjoy your tweets and would miss you if you left.
He can be good at rockets and cars and still be a villain. Being eccentric on its own doesn’t involve victimizing innocents, which he does on the regular…
Would you mind posting your mastodon link here? Twitter have replaced the 'my site' link in your tweet.
[deleted]
Account suspended.
Guess you are.
Guess you are.
> I'm not leaving Twitter.
This aged poorly.. just 2 hours later and Paul has now been suspended on Twitter.
This aged poorly.. just 2 hours later and Paul has now been suspended on Twitter.
[deleted]
Check out Lens Protocol if you’re looking for a viable decentralised alternative, Paul.
His intelligence and maximum capability aside, it is his inconsistency and sociopathic levels of impulsivity that are what is causing his bank to drain right now. I’m surprised I have any surprise left that pg has so much tolerance for complete disregard for principles or users. All my friends, the hackers makers annd those who are on the forefront are leaving Twitter.
I give as much credence to these thoughts as I do to all the Hacker News users predicting the imminent software-crash of twitter one month ago when Elon fired 80% of the employees. My reflection is that HN just seems smarter than reddit and other places, but it's just an illusion.
I think villains don't exist in the real world. There are no Voldemort with no discernible reason for doing bad things, but Elon has been doing a lot of bad things lately and is inching into the realm that seems worth calling a villain to me
can you elaborate on what bad or evil things he is doing?
Calling and implying random people pedophiles including a former executive, mass unbanning people, firing thousands based on very little, and pushing the rest to go "hardcore", releasing internal documents to conservative outlets so they can go on and tar everyone, and honestly just running his company into the ground which is bad because people rely on him to keep twitter as a going concern
How can Elon be a villain if you don’t think villains exist in the real world? Your comment doesn’t make sense.
I'm speaking in two senses of the word villain. It's clear that for basically everyone if you dig deep enough you can understand why they do things, it's also true that some people do bad things and cause harm and it's not the craziest thing to call those people villains
Some people act like villains and it’s okay to call them villains but if you dig deep enough to understand their motives they’re usually just misunderstood and actually not villains at all. Makes sense to me. Thank you for explaining!
Not a villain? Well he's utterly screwed his employees and broken employment law in multiple countries by not giving proper notice or consulting on redundancies, but hey who gives a shit about workers rights? Not you obviously.
Let’s not forget calling a man a pedo in a public tantrum AB and advocating for prosecuting Fauci among a litany of terrible anti worker positions.
Assholes can do good things. I just don’t get why we can’t call them assholes
Assholes can do good things. I just don’t get why we can’t call them assholes
FWIW, he has called two people paedophiles, an ex twitter employ, and a diver. The ex employee left his home as he received death threats.
By all means, I am holding Elon responsible for this. Here is the reasoning:
1. Either he is too stupid to understand the power he yields, and therefore should not yield it, or
2. He knows and does not care about anyone other than Elon, or
3. He knows and did it on purpose.
Hanlon's razor says 1, Occam's razor says 2. My priors say 1 is not possible, he can't be that stupid. I hope that he is not that vindictive for 3 to be true.
By all means, I am holding Elon responsible for this. Here is the reasoning:
1. Either he is too stupid to understand the power he yields, and therefore should not yield it, or
2. He knows and does not care about anyone other than Elon, or
3. He knows and did it on purpose.
Hanlon's razor says 1, Occam's razor says 2. My priors say 1 is not possible, he can't be that stupid. I hope that he is not that vindictive for 3 to be true.
The former Twitter head of trust and safety Elon called pedo in his PhD thesis argued grindr should accommodate underage queer youth on their platform.
Arguably, that’s creepy. Also, he did not act upon child porn on Twitter while as the Twitter files show he was perfectly capable of acting upon legal speech.
Arguably, that’s creepy. Also, he did not act upon child porn on Twitter while as the Twitter files show he was perfectly capable of acting upon legal speech.
> Also, he did not act upon child porn on Twitter while as the Twitter files show he was perfectly capable of acting upon legal speech.
Did the twitter files contain info about active Honeypots?
Did the twitter files contain info about active Honeypots?
The Twitter files did not expose child porn acccounts that should have been banned, at least as far as I am aware, it’s the ease with which Elon has banned child porn accounts afterwards that showed how easy this was to do.
Twitter former head of Trust and Safety seems like a queer theorist. Queer theory, in direct opposition to the gay civil rights movement, from the first 1984 essay “Thinking Sex” by Gayle Rubin argued for normalizing “man boy love” as in pedophilia [1].
How queer activism build upon queer theory intersect with antifa activism may be why so much of Twitter antifa was involved in child porn and was banned for it.
[1] https://sites.middlebury.edu/sexandsociety/files/2015/01/Rub...
Twitter former head of Trust and Safety seems like a queer theorist. Queer theory, in direct opposition to the gay civil rights movement, from the first 1984 essay “Thinking Sex” by Gayle Rubin argued for normalizing “man boy love” as in pedophilia [1].
How queer activism build upon queer theory intersect with antifa activism may be why so much of Twitter antifa was involved in child porn and was banned for it.
[1] https://sites.middlebury.edu/sexandsociety/files/2015/01/Rub...
No he's rich, so he is just "eccentric". What a sellout.
That's one of the rules I learned long ago. When you're rich enough, you're not crazy, you're "eccentric".
Yup, it's exactly that deference that gives people like Musk a permission structure to thrive as sociopaths. pg is part of the problem.
Leaders need to have enough integrity and humility to admit when they're wrong. Giving them a pass for being "eccentric" denies them opportunity for self-correction.
Leaders need to have enough integrity and humility to admit when they're wrong. Giving them a pass for being "eccentric" denies them opportunity for self-correction.
You don't need to give notice as long as you give proper severance pay.
In which country? Different countries have different legal regimes, and, I realise this is shocking for many, the USA is not the world and Twitter has a presence in multiple countries and is bound by the laws of those countries.
I am fine with this actually. It is not Amazon warehouse workers we are talking about. These people were highly paid and Twitter seems to run just fine without them. FAANG can probably get rid of 70% of the bloat.
Elon did give them 3 months severence which is quite amazing.
Elon did give them 3 months severence which is quite amazing.
Some of them are, but even at Twitter not everyone is a highly paid dev and those people have been fired as well. Let's not even go I to the ridiculousness of expecting people to sacrifice their health and wellbeing by being a hardcore worker for the further enrichment of one of the world's richest men.
Elon is literally trying to deny the severance packages he promised to give. How is this amazing?
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/12/musk-brings-spac...
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/12/musk-brings-spac...
If this is true that that's inexclusable and shitty. Still legal(?), but not ethical. Looks like the they're being challenged in the court.
Whether firing was done ethically or not, I still think that Twitter was bloated af and needed trimming. The macroeconomic conditions led to a huge hiring spree for last 8 years of 0% interest rates. We fucked around in the silicon valley and we are about to find out.
Overall, on a national/GDP scale, we can use these employees for betterment of other things than wasting their time at FAANG/Twitter. I'd like to see 1000 lean and mean companies than 10 bloated FAANGs.
Whether firing was done ethically or not, I still think that Twitter was bloated af and needed trimming. The macroeconomic conditions led to a huge hiring spree for last 8 years of 0% interest rates. We fucked around in the silicon valley and we are about to find out.
Overall, on a national/GDP scale, we can use these employees for betterment of other things than wasting their time at FAANG/Twitter. I'd like to see 1000 lean and mean companies than 10 bloated FAANGs.
That's just, like, your opinion. What matters here is employees were fired on extremely arbitrary grounds, then had their labour rights infringed upon.
> I am fine with this actually
Yeah when people show you who they are, believe them.
Yeah when people show you who they are, believe them.
I’m guessing you haven’t been keeping up with the news. 2FA not working for some, countries missing from account recovery process, axes Twitter Spaces after being criticized by a journalist, and last bit not least…he seems to have decided he will not pay severance.
[deleted]
I hope you write a blog about the process of staying off twitter. It's a system that has a lot of psychological rewards and I believe quitting it is almost like changing an addictive habit.
[deleted]
> I still think Elon is a smart guy
Against all available evidence
Against all available evidence
It appears you won't be returning to twitter
> Plus given the way things are going, it seemed like a good time to learn about alternatives.
There's HN and Reddit. It helps to dog-food your own investments every now and then.
There's HN and Reddit. It helps to dog-food your own investments every now and then.
Good lord, don't recommend reddit in general! Recommend specific subreddits!
r/all and similar are populated by politically active teens with no understanding of context or nuance or how to have a level headed discussion.
r/all and similar are populated by politically active teens with no understanding of context or nuance or how to have a level headed discussion.
The best choice. Twitter was Twitter before Elon Musk and it could be Twitter again after Elon Tusk - although it is likely to tank unless he has the balls to move on before say 2024.
I wonder what's next...
I wonder what's next...
If Twitter is going down, I think it's going down well before 2024 rolls around.
Also, I don't think Twitter is ever going to be the same. It trades heavily on its reputation, and reputation damage isn't so easily undone. People who left and found something else, won't be coming back.
Also, I don't think Twitter is ever going to be the same. It trades heavily on its reputation, and reputation damage isn't so easily undone. People who left and found something else, won't be coming back.
[deleted]
With all due respect for you, I hereby am writing elon musk off. elon and trump have same mental make up.
I do not agree with your opinion on Elon Musk, but I admire how calm, rational and polite your response to this situation is. Most people (including me) would let our emotions take over. You, sir, are a class act.
Dude, he BANNED YOU. He's running this site like a banana republic.
How many stupid things in a row does Elon Musk have to do before you realize this guy isn't wired quite right?
How many stupid things in a row does Elon Musk have to do before you realize this guy isn't wired quite right?
"the techniques that work for cars and rockets don't work in social media."
hmm...
Elon Musk was a software engineer in the beginning, you know?
I'm sorry but saying "he is a smart guy" is a bit ridiculous at this point. A "smart guy" certainly may not know everything about running a social network, but he _would_ listen to the advice from those around them.
Being smart also means understanding what you don't know and not surround yourself with sycophants.
Being smart also means understanding what you don't know and not surround yourself with sycophants.
> but he _would_ listen to the advice from those around them.
At this point, I'm assuming he is surrounded by people too eager to please him.
> Being smart also means understanding what you don't know and not surround yourself with sycophants.
The inescapable conclusion is that Elon is not as smart as he thinks. Whether he can learn is open to debate and will become evident shortly.
At this point, I'm assuming he is surrounded by people too eager to please him.
> Being smart also means understanding what you don't know and not surround yourself with sycophants.
The inescapable conclusion is that Elon is not as smart as he thinks. Whether he can learn is open to debate and will become evident shortly.
> At this point, I'm assuming he is surrounded by people too eager to please him.
He definitely is. Or at least people pretending to.
I think this is one of the biggest risks of being too successful, too rich: it becomes too easy to surround yourself with people who will only agree with everything you say, and you end up believing in yourself too much, any criticism is jealousy, any contradiction is sabotage, and obviously you must really be so smart you can do anything, because look at all the people telling you so.
(Unrelated, but I think that's also what hurt the Star Wars prequels; Lucas was the legend. He either didn't get or didn't accept the constructive criticism that made the originals great.)
He definitely is. Or at least people pretending to.
I think this is one of the biggest risks of being too successful, too rich: it becomes too easy to surround yourself with people who will only agree with everything you say, and you end up believing in yourself too much, any criticism is jealousy, any contradiction is sabotage, and obviously you must really be so smart you can do anything, because look at all the people telling you so.
(Unrelated, but I think that's also what hurt the Star Wars prequels; Lucas was the legend. He either didn't get or didn't accept the constructive criticism that made the originals great.)
I have no inside info of Twitter besides being an interested bystander, but it seems like he's flat out ignored advice (and later fired the advice givers) at multiple points since taking over. I'm sure anyone left is only still around by being a yesman.
Smart and wise are related but somewhat orthogonal, Elon is quite smart but not very wise.
To expand on this: intelligence (smarts, IQ, etc) is the ability to come up with what appears to be the objectively best answer to a problem or action to take, often in a situation with only partial information.
Wisdom is the ability to evaluate many solutions to a problem or required action, and choosing the one which has the greatest utilitarian value, for some complex utility function that attempts to incorporate a far wider collection of evidence than intelligence does.
Somebody can be quite intelligent but lack wisdom. Intelligent people are also much better at self-delusion, and erection of reality distortion fields, than wise people. They are also prone to assuming that their intelligence transfers- for example between engineering and social media.
Hopefully, he'll shut down twitter sooner rather than later and then we won't have to listen to this ongoing blather.
Wisdom is the ability to evaluate many solutions to a problem or required action, and choosing the one which has the greatest utilitarian value, for some complex utility function that attempts to incorporate a far wider collection of evidence than intelligence does.
Somebody can be quite intelligent but lack wisdom. Intelligent people are also much better at self-delusion, and erection of reality distortion fields, than wise people. They are also prone to assuming that their intelligence transfers- for example between engineering and social media.
Hopefully, he'll shut down twitter sooner rather than later and then we won't have to listen to this ongoing blather.
[deleted]
Power and fame are intoxicating, moreso than any known chemical drug compound. Elon just didn't have the means to express this version of himself before his companies took off.
You a G!
>Nor do I think he's the villain a lot of people try to make him out to be
So how do you explain his targetting of Fauci? Or the horrible things he said about that cave diver?
So how do you explain his targetting of Fauci? Or the horrible things he said about that cave diver?
I got a bridge to sell to you too.
He’s 1:1 replaying the Trump playbook and there will be no salvaging, only escalation.
He’s 1:1 replaying the Trump playbook and there will be no salvaging, only escalation.
> His work on cars and rockets speaks for itself.
You mean hiring engineers to work on cars and rockets?
You mean hiring engineers to work on cars and rockets?
Organizing the efforts of large teams of smart people is one of the most high value activities you can do in our society.
Edit: not saying that's happening at Twitter, but it has demonstrably occurred at Tesla and SpaceX.
Edit: not saying that's happening at Twitter, but it has demonstrably occurred at Tesla and SpaceX.
However, it seemed that Elon's mind was more with manipulating Bitcoin rates, and then buying and changing Twitter the last few years. Tesla and SpaceX must be run by other people, which investors and Elon conveniently keep out of the picture.
Elon is certainly laser-focused on self-promotion, no doubt. I suspect most of the value he will deliver at those companies is in the past, but that doesn't detract from it.
Perhaps founders are not all that different from the companies they run. In time, bloat and complacency will twist them into unrecognizable shapes, until they too are disrupted by upstarts.
Why should Musk be any different?
Why should Musk be any different?
> Elon is certainly laser-focused on self-promotion, no doubt.
Strongly doubt. But we will have to wait until he's no longer relevant before we get a good view of this man's inner workings.
Strongly doubt. But we will have to wait until he's no longer relevant before we get a good view of this man's inner workings.
This wasn't an achievement for SpaceX. Lots of very talented people wanted to work on space based on passion alone. It just came down to providing funding at a time space privatization was an uncertain venture.
Compare to Neuralink mostly being a failure.
Compare to Neuralink mostly being a failure.
No one wanted to work at SpaceX initially. It took Musk's persistence and ability to sell a vision to hire first employees. And yes, also money. But just money gives you Blue Origin, not SpaceX.
It took SpaceX many years and a few rockets blowing up before they had first successful lunch so what you expect Neuralink to have achieved by now?
They're making progress. Let's revisit the "Neuarlink is a failure" 10 years from now.
It took SpaceX many years and a few rockets blowing up before they had first successful lunch so what you expect Neuralink to have achieved by now?
They're making progress. Let's revisit the "Neuarlink is a failure" 10 years from now.
The role of Mike Griffin in helping Musk set up SpaceX and source the right people, and then steering NASA support his way can’t be ignored though. Without that it’s almost certain it wouldn’t exist now.
There is still something special about spacex. There are many other space companies that get the same passionate people but they get very little done by comparison.
Be careful not to assume the something special is Musk rather than it succeeding in spite of him.
You mean he hired product managers?
In my experience, product managers do not spontaneously organize to create successful, billion dollar companies, either.
I'm curious why do you think SpaceX and Tesla are market leaders in their niches? Is Elon the only person who hires product managers?
Tesla's aren't even good cars they are great batteries attached to mediocre cars sold at an unprofitable price rendered profitable only by government handouts.
Testla is market leader in "tesla cars"… which is an odd way to define a market leader.
Spacex, I honestly don't know enough to comment about.
Spacex, I honestly don't know enough to comment about.
Tesla is the market leader in electric vehicles. Tesla sells more EVs in the US than all the other manufacturers combined.
https://electrek.co/2022/10/18/us-electric-vehicle-sales-by-...
https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/13/fully-electric-vehicles...
https://electrek.co/2022/10/18/us-electric-vehicle-sales-by-...
https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/13/fully-electric-vehicles...
You can also hire people for that
It’s crazy how people can look at Elon’s twitter saga and come away with the impression that he is a good people manager.
Don't care that much for Tesla - the EV ship has sailed - but I hope he doesn't destroy the work being done by SpaceX's team.
Jeff Bezos is hiring engineers to work on rockets. Blue Origin is older than SpaceX and still hasn't reached orbit. So, I don't think it's that simple.
At this point it's fair to ask how much was Musk and how much was Gwynne Shotwell.
Remember when Elon baselessly called someone a peadophile.
Repeatedly.
So eccentric.
Repeatedly.
So eccentric.
pg, yes Elon's $8 a month and now this has generated terrible optics. But like Donald Trump with politicians, isn't he just saying the quiet part out loud that most capitalists actually do? I think it is valuable to examine why we were against Donald Trump doing, but somehow in the broader picture everyone was doing it (e.g. Bill Clinton cracking down on "illegal immigrants", building border fences etc.) The important thing is the broader industry, not one player.
You want to see alternatives? Here is an alternative we've been building since 2011, it's a labor of love in which we invested over $1 million and 10 years. It is far, far more extensive than Mastodon and you can see below why that matters. Would you check it out? It's free and open source: https://github.com/Qbix/Platform
Not only have we built it, but we've interviewed a ton of people around the broader topics of capitalism and free speech. There is the idea that capitalism is the best system for promoting free speech, but that is not, in fact, the case. Just as one example of many, Sinclair Television told their anchors word-for-word what to say, and anyone who doesn't do what the employer says is fired and replaced by a different mouthpiece. Intellectual property, and other forms of ownership, are by their very definition designed to exclude people from using certain content / property in certain ways.
In fact, conservatives who bristled at Obama's "you didn't build it" used to say "I built it, I own it!" In that case, they should celebrate the way that Twitter and Facebook were privately managed. But many of them instead were calling for regulations to prevent them from doing just that. So which is it? I had an interview with Noam Chomsky twice about that, here is the latest: https://qbix.com/chomsky
If you allow me to bring up a taboo for a bit, I think it's important to bring it up on Hacker News. VCs as an industry, and YCombinator as part of that, specifically try to fund platforms that end up being managed by only a few people and extract rents. Most of them avoid funding open source platforms, which end up crowdfunding from the People (thanks to the JOBS act, for instance). Or from the Knight Foundation. Or Matt Mullenweg of Wordpress funding Matrix.org
VCs specifically tell you that they want you to "focus" on one feature, to "capture" enough of the market, and some of them (e.g. Peter Thiel) unabashedly proclaimed that "competition is for losers", build a monopoly. Zuck used to be a guy who turned down a $1M acquisition offer from Microsoft, and open sourced his code. He wanted to build Wirehog as a decentralized platform for the people (https://techcrunch.com/2010/05/26/wirehog/) Peter Thiel and Sean Parker "put a bullet in that thing" (their words) and groomed him to build a monopoly and extract rents. Zuck and Elon privately control the major PUBLIC forums we all use. And are we all better for it?
I think the work of Tim Berners-Lee, Linus Torvalds, Vitalik and others has benefitted the world far more and enabled trillions in new ideas (including Google, Facebook, Amazon) precisely because it was based around open source and protocols, and didn't prevent people and organizations from using it the way they wanted! Google, Amazon etc. could have never started as "keyword: Google" on AOL, for instance. Think about it.
Over the last decade I have been steadily drawn into the open source camp. My team and I started an open source alternative to Big Tech 10 years ago. We've applied to YC probably around 8 different times, as we kept growing and reaching 10 million users. We never even got to the interview. Such general-purpose ideas are just not something interesting to most VCs. It took MySQL, NGiNX, and other platforms 7-10 years before they got funded in a capitalist manner. By then, they'd taken over the world.
I'm sure there are exceptions, and YCombinator has recently started to fund open protocols and nonprofits - I'm glad to see it. For reference, our pitch to VCs for years had been along these lines:
https://qbix.com/deck.pdf
https://qbix.com/blog/2021/01/15/open-source-communities/
PS: For those who downvote, please write a response. After all, I've spent a decade and $1M of my own money putting together an alternative pg is looking for, seeing the need for it way before others. I give it away for free. All I ask is that you take a minute to write your own words in the conversation about why you disagree :)
PPS: I think the rule that you can downvote on HN to signal mere disagreement (as opposed to logical issues, dishonesty, etc.) is flawed. This is also a free speech issue ... on this site, if we want to be intellectually honest, we should at least downvote and then comment.
You want to see alternatives? Here is an alternative we've been building since 2011, it's a labor of love in which we invested over $1 million and 10 years. It is far, far more extensive than Mastodon and you can see below why that matters. Would you check it out? It's free and open source: https://github.com/Qbix/Platform
Not only have we built it, but we've interviewed a ton of people around the broader topics of capitalism and free speech. There is the idea that capitalism is the best system for promoting free speech, but that is not, in fact, the case. Just as one example of many, Sinclair Television told their anchors word-for-word what to say, and anyone who doesn't do what the employer says is fired and replaced by a different mouthpiece. Intellectual property, and other forms of ownership, are by their very definition designed to exclude people from using certain content / property in certain ways.
In fact, conservatives who bristled at Obama's "you didn't build it" used to say "I built it, I own it!" In that case, they should celebrate the way that Twitter and Facebook were privately managed. But many of them instead were calling for regulations to prevent them from doing just that. So which is it? I had an interview with Noam Chomsky twice about that, here is the latest: https://qbix.com/chomsky
If you allow me to bring up a taboo for a bit, I think it's important to bring it up on Hacker News. VCs as an industry, and YCombinator as part of that, specifically try to fund platforms that end up being managed by only a few people and extract rents. Most of them avoid funding open source platforms, which end up crowdfunding from the People (thanks to the JOBS act, for instance). Or from the Knight Foundation. Or Matt Mullenweg of Wordpress funding Matrix.org
VCs specifically tell you that they want you to "focus" on one feature, to "capture" enough of the market, and some of them (e.g. Peter Thiel) unabashedly proclaimed that "competition is for losers", build a monopoly. Zuck used to be a guy who turned down a $1M acquisition offer from Microsoft, and open sourced his code. He wanted to build Wirehog as a decentralized platform for the people (https://techcrunch.com/2010/05/26/wirehog/) Peter Thiel and Sean Parker "put a bullet in that thing" (their words) and groomed him to build a monopoly and extract rents. Zuck and Elon privately control the major PUBLIC forums we all use. And are we all better for it?
I think the work of Tim Berners-Lee, Linus Torvalds, Vitalik and others has benefitted the world far more and enabled trillions in new ideas (including Google, Facebook, Amazon) precisely because it was based around open source and protocols, and didn't prevent people and organizations from using it the way they wanted! Google, Amazon etc. could have never started as "keyword: Google" on AOL, for instance. Think about it.
Over the last decade I have been steadily drawn into the open source camp. My team and I started an open source alternative to Big Tech 10 years ago. We've applied to YC probably around 8 different times, as we kept growing and reaching 10 million users. We never even got to the interview. Such general-purpose ideas are just not something interesting to most VCs. It took MySQL, NGiNX, and other platforms 7-10 years before they got funded in a capitalist manner. By then, they'd taken over the world.
I'm sure there are exceptions, and YCombinator has recently started to fund open protocols and nonprofits - I'm glad to see it. For reference, our pitch to VCs for years had been along these lines:
https://qbix.com/deck.pdf
https://qbix.com/blog/2021/01/15/open-source-communities/
PS: For those who downvote, please write a response. After all, I've spent a decade and $1M of my own money putting together an alternative pg is looking for, seeing the need for it way before others. I give it away for free. All I ask is that you take a minute to write your own words in the conversation about why you disagree :)
PPS: I think the rule that you can downvote on HN to signal mere disagreement (as opposed to logical issues, dishonesty, etc.) is flawed. This is also a free speech issue ... on this site, if we want to be intellectually honest, we should at least downvote and then comment.
Re your PPS, maybe it’s not the platform but the users of the platform. Maybe Elon’s long game is to get the toxic users off the platform. It has a lot more value with diverse views (meaning ideas you disagree with) than the current echo chamber.
How are you defining toxic? I think antisemites and white supremacists qualify more often than not and yet their access to the platform was restored. Certainly we can't argue it was for the sake of free speech absolutism since that clearly isn't a value the new Twitter actually believes in. I know everyone wants to give the benefit of the doubt but I fail to see the "4D chess" strategy here if his goal really is to remove toxic users.
Other presidents built border walls and tried to put the brakes on immigration. They on the other hand didn't pretend we were under attack by an army of brown people who could only be defeated by destroying immigrants civil rights, punishing them by stealing their children, spending 10s of billions of additional funds building an unfeasible great wall of America, and ending democracy in order to install dear leader the only hope for the white race about to be replaced by brown people and liberals. This is to say context matters.
Trump didn't just say the quiet part out loud he turned it into a battle flag for hate and bigotry. Bringing him into the discussion basically ensures you wont have a good discussion on anything else its the current variation of Godwins Law.
Trump didn't just say the quiet part out loud he turned it into a battle flag for hate and bigotry. Bringing him into the discussion basically ensures you wont have a good discussion on anything else its the current variation of Godwins Law.
robomartin(2)
[deleted]
[deleted]
Why shouldn't you have to pay a few bucks to advertise your other social media sites? Surely you're wealthy enough.
To be a great villian you have to be smart. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to get support and would likely make too many mistakes.
Amazing that just a month ago he tweeted[1]:
"It's remarkable how many people who've never run any kind of company think they know how to run a tech company better than someone who's run Tesla and SpaceX.".
It's been fascinating watching so many VC types ignore so many red flags just because some of Elon's early actions validated their priors (e.g. tech companies are bloated and need to layoff staff).
[1] https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1592852796185128961
It's been fascinating watching so many VC types ignore so many red flags just because some of Elon's early actions validated their priors (e.g. tech companies are bloated and need to layoff staff).
[1] https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1592852796185128961
For sure. Given that Musk was fired from [deleted, see note 1] and PayPal, you'd think they might have had more questions. But people look at failure much more carefully than they look at success.
I think the next wave of interesting questions is around the extent to which Musk contributed the apparent successes, SpaceX and Tesla. We won't know for a long time, as a lot of the people in the know have a strong incentive to keep quiet. But one possible explanation is that he is good at PR and using hype to raise money, but is not a competent manager without help. Consider, for example, this bit from someone who says they were a SpaceX intern: https://www.tumblr.com/numberonecatwinner/701567544684855296...
I asked a former SpaceX person about that and was told it seemed right, that SpaceX worked because everybody believed in the mission and worked hard at managing Elon so that they could get the actual work done.
[1] I incorrectly thought he was fired by the board from Zip2, but they just refused to make him CEO. Thanks to dontknowwhyihn for the correction: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34042958
I think the next wave of interesting questions is around the extent to which Musk contributed the apparent successes, SpaceX and Tesla. We won't know for a long time, as a lot of the people in the know have a strong incentive to keep quiet. But one possible explanation is that he is good at PR and using hype to raise money, but is not a competent manager without help. Consider, for example, this bit from someone who says they were a SpaceX intern: https://www.tumblr.com/numberonecatwinner/701567544684855296...
I asked a former SpaceX person about that and was told it seemed right, that SpaceX worked because everybody believed in the mission and worked hard at managing Elon so that they could get the actual work done.
[1] I incorrectly thought he was fired by the board from Zip2, but they just refused to make him CEO. Thanks to dontknowwhyihn for the correction: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34042958
Musk is a celebrity. Celebrities start successful companies all the time. Is Rihanna a brilliant business woman for starting a successful beauty line? Is she a business genius, which is what Musk gets labeled so often? Maybe she really is, but I don't see her get that label, I think her value add is very clearly "she is famous, people will buy shit that she puts her name on".
What they have in common is that they have fame and money, and it turns out you can do a lot with that.
What they have in common is that they have fame and money, and it turns out you can do a lot with that.
Many celebrities end up burning out or spending all their money, start failed businesses, etc.
Rihanna imo is very savvy and the Fenty brand was a very successful business, involving a couple pivots from fashion to more lingerie and beauty. The big Savage x Fenty musical production event every year is a smart move that leverages her music industry connections and draws lots of interest and new customers.
Arguably she is doing better than Musk atm, given that he started life with a huge capital advantage and is likely losing big on Twitter right now (as well as tanking his public image).
Rihanna imo is very savvy and the Fenty brand was a very successful business, involving a couple pivots from fashion to more lingerie and beauty. The big Savage x Fenty musical production event every year is a smart move that leverages her music industry connections and draws lots of interest and new customers.
Arguably she is doing better than Musk atm, given that he started life with a huge capital advantage and is likely losing big on Twitter right now (as well as tanking his public image).
Fame is like a flywheel with a feedback loop. Once famous everything you do makes you more famous, even bad stuff.
Hence celebrities getting married and divorced every three weeks, it keeps them in the news.
Hence celebrities getting married and divorced every three weeks, it keeps them in the news.
Musk simply does a lot of the basics right and knows how to talk bullshit, had the assets to start at all, is apathetic to social perception (his narcissistic sociopathic tendency) which makes it easier to go against the flow both in a good and bad way, and has the mental ability to work long hours.
His successes just delivered what the market demanded but established powers did not want to pursue for one reason or another. He knows to outsource actual work to experts and offers them attention which is easier due to his interest in tech/science. Of course, he sees them as tools and he doesn't need to care about labor laws but that's a part of the longer list of his flaws and mistakes.
After Tesla/SpaceX took off, it has been as you described.
His successes just delivered what the market demanded but established powers did not want to pursue for one reason or another. He knows to outsource actual work to experts and offers them attention which is easier due to his interest in tech/science. Of course, he sees them as tools and he doesn't need to care about labor laws but that's a part of the longer list of his flaws and mistakes.
After Tesla/SpaceX took off, it has been as you described.
> I think her value add is very clearly "she is famous, people will buy shit that she puts her name on".
Musk example[1] of this, he sold 1 million USD worth of perfume with smell of burnt hair in a few hours.
https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/oddly-enough/elon-musk-sel...
Musk example[1] of this, he sold 1 million USD worth of perfume with smell of burnt hair in a few hours.
https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/oddly-enough/elon-musk-sel...
They also start moderately but not wildly successful companies and then leak fake tax returns to look more successful, like Kylie Jenner.
This feels disingenuous.
Elon Musk was barely more than a nobody when he got involved with Tesla and started SpaceX.
Fenty was founded after Rihanna had scored countless hits and was basically a household name.
Elon Musk was barely more than a nobody when he got involved with Tesla and started SpaceX.
Fenty was founded after Rihanna had scored countless hits and was basically a household name.
> Elon Musk was barely more than a nobody when he got involved with Tesla and started SpaceX.
He was extremely wealthy and had a lot of connections from buying his way into other companies. He was not yet a household name/ global celebrity, only one in more niche (but very powerful) circles, that changed soon after.
He was extremely wealthy and had a lot of connections from buying his way into other companies. He was not yet a household name/ global celebrity, only one in more niche (but very powerful) circles, that changed soon after.
But so were hundreds/thousands of other people, most of whom did not go on to found companies rivaling Tesla and SpaceX.
How many tried? Lots of people don't actually want to do that. I know lots of very wealthy people who are not at all interested in increasing their wealth or running companies or being famous.
The cemetery of defunct space startups is pretty big, including the one founded by John Carmack.
He in fact forced the founders of Tesla out of the company to call himself founder.
You'll see that I noted that in my original comment
Just look at the guys coming from paypal and see what they did. More than a few household names.
You’ve completely moved the goalposts there
I don't see how. I said celebrity and wealth are what they have in common and what they have leveraged. Elon was wealthy before he was famous, he became famous in important circles, and eventually he became globally famous.
Yeah... I'm failing to see how "barely more than a nobody" can be applied to anyone who had access to lot of wealthy networks. Maybe in comparison to others in that universe, but put any one of them out in the general public and the imbalance of power is pretty obvious.
If you can reasonably self-fund a startup with employees for a while, you are not a nobody and you are likely far more powerful than 95% of the population. You can literally dictate what other human beings do for 40 hours a week. That's not being a nobody...
If you can reasonably self-fund a startup with employees for a while, you are not a nobody and you are likely far more powerful than 95% of the population. You can literally dictate what other human beings do for 40 hours a week. That's not being a nobody...
Who is "Rihanna" ?
Rihanna is one of the most successful musical artists of all time. Her net worth is near or at a billion dollars.
Yeah I was being a little facetious. But not much. I have heard of her, but don't know any of her music nor her fashion brands. I probably have seen her likeness, but I have no mental image of what she looks like. I couldn't tell you the names of any of her songs or the names of her brands.
I know who Musk is, I know what he does, I know about the companies he founded, I know what he looks like. All I know of Rihanna is that she is a pop star.
Celebrity is very contextual.
I know who Musk is, I know what he does, I know about the companies he founded, I know what he looks like. All I know of Rihanna is that she is a pop star.
Celebrity is very contextual.
> Robyn Fenty, known to the world as Rihanna, launched Fenty Beauty in 2017, she sought to create a cosmetics company that made “women everywhere (feel) included.” A perhaps unintended consequence: The beauty line has helped her enter one of the world’s most exclusive ranks: Billionaire.
> Rihanna is now worth $1.7 billion, Forbes estimates—making her the wealthiest female musician in the world and second only to Oprah Winfrey as the richest female entertainer. But it’s not her music that’s made her so wealthy. The bulk of her fortune (an estimated $1.4 billion) comes from the value of Fenty Beauty, of which Forbes can now confirm she owns 50%. Much of the rest lies in her stake in her lingerie company, Savage x Fenty, worth an estimated $270 million, and her earnings from her career as a chart-topping musician and actress.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/maddieberg/2021/08/04/fentys-fo...
She is a business mogul in the best sense of the word, just in industries far away from here.
> Rihanna is now worth $1.7 billion, Forbes estimates—making her the wealthiest female musician in the world and second only to Oprah Winfrey as the richest female entertainer. But it’s not her music that’s made her so wealthy. The bulk of her fortune (an estimated $1.4 billion) comes from the value of Fenty Beauty, of which Forbes can now confirm she owns 50%. Much of the rest lies in her stake in her lingerie company, Savage x Fenty, worth an estimated $270 million, and her earnings from her career as a chart-topping musician and actress.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/maddieberg/2021/08/04/fentys-fo...
She is a business mogul in the best sense of the word, just in industries far away from here.
Is her beauty line worth more than (top three classic beauty supply companies)?
Rihanna’s underwear company Savage X Fenty was estimated to be worth $3 billion earlier this year, which is roughly the same as the market cap of Victoria’s Secret.
Probably that estimate would be lower now, given the market downturn. But clearly she’s well on her way to building up a competitor to the established brands.
Probably that estimate would be lower now, given the market downturn. But clearly she’s well on her way to building up a competitor to the established brands.
Don't see any evidence that it's worth 3 billion dollars. All I see is a quote from Rihanna herself saying she thinks her company can raise that much by the time they IPO. Forbes estimates the value of her company at 1 billion on the high end.
And while it's true that VSCO's current market cap is 3 billion, at the time that Rihanna made her comment VSCO's market cap was 5-6 billion. It has dropped significantly in recent months.
And while it's true that VSCO's current market cap is 3 billion, at the time that Rihanna made her comment VSCO's market cap was 5-6 billion. It has dropped significantly in recent months.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Can you just make your point?
Yes. That's what market cap means. I can understand you might disagree with the valuation, but that doesn't change it.
Also, don't forget that Rihanna has something the top three beauty supply companies don't have - a growing brand. That has a massive impact on market cap.
Also, don't forget that Rihanna has something the top three beauty supply companies don't have - a growing brand. That has a massive impact on market cap.
So her brand has a higher market cap than L'Oréal, Estée Lauder, etc?
Does her beauty line rival that of the gods? Because I don’t want another Trojan War starting.
SpaceX worked because they hired experienced people from ULA and other launch services companies who weren't held back by the fear of risk taking that is endemic in the MIC. They wouldn't have succeed if they just tried to play rocket engineer like Carmack did.
Musk is a victim of his own success. Even if he isn't solely responsible for the success of Tesla and Space X in his mind enough of it is him.
The problem here is overconfidence / blind spots. Twitter is a different type of business. Musk looks to be doing a Mike Jordan or a Shaq. Basketball isn't baseball, nor is it rapping. Both of them recovered from those bad decisions. Will Musk? Time will tell.
The problem here is overconfidence / blind spots. Twitter is a different type of business. Musk looks to be doing a Mike Jordan or a Shaq. Basketball isn't baseball, nor is it rapping. Both of them recovered from those bad decisions. Will Musk? Time will tell.
Yeah, there's a phenomenon called "Acquired Situational Narcissism", where if somebody spends enough time in an environment that's all about them, they start thinking it's all about them.
There's some evidence Musk was like this all along, but it is a lot harder to learn humility when you're doing well.
There's some evidence Musk was like this all along, but it is a lot harder to learn humility when you're doing well.
All we can really compare Musk to is to Bezos. Bezos basically destroyed Blue Origin in 2017 after they blew up a test stand. This is the sort of thing that happens when you're developing rockets. You just have to accept it and move on. It'll cost you millions and many months, but if you want to develop rockets... After the test stand incident Bezos fired the CEO, brought in an incompetent one and brought in a "no mistakes" type of culture that doesn't get anything done.
In contrast, check out the Tom Mueller interview about Elon Musk and "face shut off". This feature is one of the top reasons why the SpaceX Merlin rocket engine is such a great engine. Mueller thought it would be very hard to get it to work in a large engine and he was right. They blew up hundreds of engines and a bunch of test stands. But Musk was supportive the whole time. That's a big deal, and what you want from a CEO during development.
But "better than Bezos running a rocket company" is a pretty low bar to hurdle.
Tory Bruno at ULA and Peter Beck at Rocket Lab from the outside appear to be outstanding CEO's. But they've been starved for resources for different reasons. What could they have done with the resources that Musk & Bezos brought to their companies?
Rocket Lab in particular is one of the companies that could challenge SpaceX's dominance.
In contrast, check out the Tom Mueller interview about Elon Musk and "face shut off". This feature is one of the top reasons why the SpaceX Merlin rocket engine is such a great engine. Mueller thought it would be very hard to get it to work in a large engine and he was right. They blew up hundreds of engines and a bunch of test stands. But Musk was supportive the whole time. That's a big deal, and what you want from a CEO during development.
But "better than Bezos running a rocket company" is a pretty low bar to hurdle.
Tory Bruno at ULA and Peter Beck at Rocket Lab from the outside appear to be outstanding CEO's. But they've been starved for resources for different reasons. What could they have done with the resources that Musk & Bezos brought to their companies?
Rocket Lab in particular is one of the companies that could challenge SpaceX's dominance.
"Bezos basically destroyed Blue Origin in 2017"
This sort-of implies that BO was functional prior to that incident.
BO was founded in 2000. By 2017, they had existed for 17 years without reaching the orbit. (Which SpaceX managed in 6 years, Astra managed in 17 years, RocketLab in 12 years).
It seems to me that BO is just continuing to be an expensive failure, which, unlike all the other failed space startups, keeps dragging itself on, because it can rely on basically unlimited funding.
This sort-of implies that BO was functional prior to that incident.
BO was founded in 2000. By 2017, they had existed for 17 years without reaching the orbit. (Which SpaceX managed in 6 years, Astra managed in 17 years, RocketLab in 12 years).
It seems to me that BO is just continuing to be an expensive failure, which, unlike all the other failed space startups, keeps dragging itself on, because it can rely on basically unlimited funding.
For the first part of its existence Blue Origin was basically a think tank. For a while its only employee was a science fiction author. Neal Stephenson is great, but he's not a rocket designer. As a think tank it was highly successful -- they successfully identified VTVL reusability as the future of space independently from SpaceX and similarly chose methalox. By 2017 Blue Origin was basically about a decade old as a "real" company. And progress was reasonable. New Shepherd was real and successful and looked like it could launch humans at any time. New Glenn was ambitious and BE-4 looked close.
Expecting them to reach orbit as quickly as SpaceX or Rocket Lab is unfair since SpaceX & Rocket Lab had an orbital rocket as their first product, and Blue Origin didn't.
It's unfair to compare everybody to SpaceX -- their success is exceptional. Pre-2017 Blue Origin wasn't as functional as SpaceX but I wouldn't call them dysfunctional. Post-2017 Blue Origin is dysfunctional.
This is all based on heresay, so take from it what you will.
Expecting them to reach orbit as quickly as SpaceX or Rocket Lab is unfair since SpaceX & Rocket Lab had an orbital rocket as their first product, and Blue Origin didn't.
It's unfair to compare everybody to SpaceX -- their success is exceptional. Pre-2017 Blue Origin wasn't as functional as SpaceX but I wouldn't call them dysfunctional. Post-2017 Blue Origin is dysfunctional.
This is all based on heresay, so take from it what you will.
Thank you for providing context that I wasn't aware of.
That said, they are backed by Bezos, one of the richest people on the planet, so I think it is fair to expect some real achievements from them.
That said, they are backed by Bezos, one of the richest people on the planet, so I think it is fair to expect some real achievements from them.
Very fair.
It almost seems a dream to a space nerd. A O'Neill protoge with a long term vision of "moving heavy industry into space to enable the Earth to turn into a garden planet" and uninterested in short term profits investing a billion dollars a year to pursue that vision.
They then successfully identified the first two steps along that road. 1: dramatically reduce the price of access to space through reusability. 2: return to the moon for exploration on the path to exploiting its resources to enable the space industry that's the long term goal. 3: LEO space station.
That SpaceX beat them to the first two goals should be cause for celebration and partnership and a move on to the next goal. Instead they've been fighting SpaceX with dirty tricks that luckily have failed.
It almost seems a dream to a space nerd. A O'Neill protoge with a long term vision of "moving heavy industry into space to enable the Earth to turn into a garden planet" and uninterested in short term profits investing a billion dollars a year to pursue that vision.
They then successfully identified the first two steps along that road. 1: dramatically reduce the price of access to space through reusability. 2: return to the moon for exploration on the path to exploiting its resources to enable the space industry that's the long term goal. 3: LEO space station.
That SpaceX beat them to the first two goals should be cause for celebration and partnership and a move on to the next goal. Instead they've been fighting SpaceX with dirty tricks that luckily have failed.
To be absolutely fair… do you have a reference for Zip2? I was at AltaVista for the acquisition and while I wasn’t close enough to it to be sure, I know he walked away with a bunch of money.
[deleted]
I worked at Zip2, and am pretty sure Elon was not fired.
Thanks for the correction! That's my mistake. I remembered it as the board firing him from CEO, as happened at PayPal, but according to Wikipedia, at Zip2 the board only refused to make him CEO.
IIRC some pieces frame Sorkin joining as Elon being "demoted" to CTO; after ousting Sorkin, he tried to become CEO but, as you said, the board shot him down.
In the bigger picture, Elon in SF twittering around while Gwynne runs Boca Chica may be a good thing.
No later than Friday, I was discussing with an acquaintance working for Tesla who compared Musk's leadership here to Trump at the white house: there is an entire team responsible for doing internal damage control after Musk announcements on Twitter. It's a lot of work, and sometimes the entire company just need to cope with the boss's whims (“ok next year there's going to be the Cybertruck thing [which he basically compared to the “not a flamethrower”] but fortunately for 2024 we're working on real cars”).
Musk is a fraudster. Someone must compile a timeline of his claims. Just the content that pops up from Thunderf00t on Youtube calling it out is enough for investigations. The only way I see investors going along with it is embarassment, riding the tide and not knowing when it will change. SoftBank style. It's changing now, economic corrections, just a time he's leveraged more than a sane person would value his companies at. lol
Then there's China. Tesla's 25% yearly revenue after being the first US company to launch without being 50% hand-in-hand with a local business. He agreed to teach the locals his methods, and they now sell straight-up copies at half the price. lol
I'm sorry but this whole thing is one big joke.
Then there's China. Tesla's 25% yearly revenue after being the first US company to launch without being 50% hand-in-hand with a local business. He agreed to teach the locals his methods, and they now sell straight-up copies at half the price. lol
I'm sorry but this whole thing is one big joke.
Where did you find that Elon was fired from Zip2 and PayPal?
As I mentioned elsewhere, I was wrong about Zip2; the board just refused to let him become CEO. But at PayPal, the board fired him after 6 months as CEO. That's documented in many places, including here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk#X.com_and_PayPal
When I disagree with someone, I do not necessarily think they're stupid. That's a needlessly polarizing mindset.
When I think someone is stupid, I don't necessarily disagree with them. That's a needlessly polarizing mindset.
Also true! Stopped clocks, etc.
You're a rare person, in 2022.
Maybe you could be come one too
https://www.amazon.com/Never-Thought-That-Way-Conversations/...
https://www.amazon.com/Never-Thought-That-Way-Conversations/...
stupid doesn't end a conversation. It starts it. Ok, someone thinking is different (stupid). But how exactly do they think? Why? What drives? Where does the break or wrong start?
correct - I've learnt different perspectives and expanded my way of thinking
and also learnt many many people do not bother with thinking, and just throw crap out - due to their immediate emotions
and also learnt many many people do not bother with thinking, and just throw crap out - due to their immediate emotions
What sort of decisions or behavior would lead you to believe that somebody is stupid?
I'll bite
- the ability to explain why you think a certain way or did something (i.e. when you ask a child why they threw a glass they'll say "I don't know"
- the speed at which you learn/process new information
- the ability to understand your emotions and the level of control you have over them
- your willing to engage in debate
- how inquisitive you are
- the ability to explain why you think a certain way or did something (i.e. when you ask a child why they threw a glass they'll say "I don't know"
- the speed at which you learn/process new information
- the ability to understand your emotions and the level of control you have over them
- your willing to engage in debate
- how inquisitive you are
In addition to "I don't know" is "I messed up". Everyone does stupid things occasionally. Stupid people double down on their stupidity once they realize what happened instead of owning up to it.
There's some nuance there though. Doubling down is (almost) always a stupid move but it isn't always stupid people that do it. It's rooted in insecurity which is independent of intelligence.
Someone who claims to hold a basic concept of something as straight forward as "free speech absolutist" and doesn't see the logical incoherence of proceeding to ban reporters and others who publish and aggregate publicly available information (@elonjet).
I personally agree with this.
Further, I think “somebody that spends an extraordinary amount of money to become admin on a forum (one of the worst jobs on earth)” qualifies as “a stupid person” well before “being incredibly, laughably, hilariously inept at being a forum admin” even gets factored into the “How stupid can a person be?” equation.
Further, I think “somebody that spends an extraordinary amount of money to become admin on a forum (one of the worst jobs on earth)” qualifies as “a stupid person” well before “being incredibly, laughably, hilariously inept at being a forum admin” even gets factored into the “How stupid can a person be?” equation.
Just because somebody does something different than us doesn’t mean they are stupid, how ridiculous and reductive is that?
They might just be evil.
They might just be evil.
[deleted]
Is it necessary to believe anyone is "stupid" as a personality?
I just disagree with people's opinions on certain things. And if I frequently disagree with someone enough, then I just quietly stop paying any attention to what they say.
I just disagree with people's opinions on certain things. And if I frequently disagree with someone enough, then I just quietly stop paying any attention to what they say.
How is judging people’s way of thinking as being a binary between “necessary” and “unnecessary” not just calling people “stupid” or “not stupid” the same thing just using different words?
I don't think people are calling Elon Musk stupid because they disagree with him.
If you don't hate stupid people, how do you know that you're smart?
Perhaps not your intent, but you have hit on the entire social media mindset, distilled.
TV debate long ago decided that every complex human concern can be profitably reduced to a crass binary which can be argued about in front of a camera for the audience's thumbs up or down.
Social media democratised this decerebrate approach. A thumbs up or down from your tribe. Mastodon, Post.news et al only replicate the Twitter model.
It doesn't matter which platform PG, or anyone else, is on. They're all worthless distraction. Fiddling while Rome burns etc.
TV debate long ago decided that every complex human concern can be profitably reduced to a crass binary which can be argued about in front of a camera for the audience's thumbs up or down.
Social media democratised this decerebrate approach. A thumbs up or down from your tribe. Mastodon, Post.news et al only replicate the Twitter model.
It doesn't matter which platform PG, or anyone else, is on. They're all worthless distraction. Fiddling while Rome burns etc.
You can tell who's actually discussing a person's intelligence and who's status-signaling how smurt they are because only one group gets terribly offended when you disagree.
Majority of people here on HN were also convinced he will try to make Twitter better. Not everybody believed that he will succeeded but it seems like majority belived that he will at least try hard. Like improve app to purchase things (one click checkout), integrate with real time news, some free speech, sports, … so many ideas
The thing is that Twitter 1.0 had the exact same ideas. Every one of them that Musk has thought of to date.
They simply were too slow in implementing them. Some of them eg. payments are due to all of the regulatory challenges that Twitter faces as a top tier social network. Others are just incompetence eg. not doing more with Vine.
They needed a better executor. Problem is Musk immediately fired everyone. And has constantly underestimated the complexity of the system. So bit hard to see how they were ever going to do better as Twitter 2.0.
They simply were too slow in implementing them. Some of them eg. payments are due to all of the regulatory challenges that Twitter faces as a top tier social network. Others are just incompetence eg. not doing more with Vine.
They needed a better executor. Problem is Musk immediately fired everyone. And has constantly underestimated the complexity of the system. So bit hard to see how they were ever going to do better as Twitter 2.0.
> Majority of people here on HN were also convinced he will try to make Twitter better.
Speaking only for myself, but I'd honestly contest that.
Speaking only for myself, but I'd honestly contest that.
Personally, I assumed he had multiple overlapping motivations. Prove that he knew tech products better than SV insiders, own a major media platform to push his viewpoint, save a media platform from "woke" people and let people like Trump back on, silence his critics, make money, pretend he really intended to purchase something he didn't actually want to. I'm not sure that even he knows why he does what he does, because so much of it is impulsive and can't be attributed to a coherent plan with specific goals.
The only thing that will definitely hold true is that there is an audience of tens of millions of Americans who feel mocked by "the Elites." They will shower adoration on anyone with Elite creds - be it academic, media, or business - who tells them there really is a conspiracy to oppress them and that they're the straight shooter who will go to battle for them. That is a very seductive amount of positive feedback when the other things you're doing aren't home runs.
The only thing that will definitely hold true is that there is an audience of tens of millions of Americans who feel mocked by "the Elites." They will shower adoration on anyone with Elite creds - be it academic, media, or business - who tells them there really is a conspiracy to oppress them and that they're the straight shooter who will go to battle for them. That is a very seductive amount of positive feedback when the other things you're doing aren't home runs.
I confess, I was one of those people who believed that he’d try hard to make a positive change. The reality seems to be exactly what the most cynical takes were; it’s all about money and petty personal things. It’s a shame. The wasted potential is enormous.
> Majority of people here on HN were also convinced he will try to make Twitter better.
I mean. I still think he is trying to do that. Is he succeeding? I don’t think so.
If it all hits the ground and twitter is no more a going concern will he claim that was his plan all along? Probably. Doesn’t mean it is true.
Even on the day he offered to buy twitter he was offering more money than the stock was worth. That is only rational if you believe you have a plan to run it better.
According to reports he is spending a lot of his time managing twitter in quite a hands-on way. Do you think he is not trying to make it better in his own mind?
I mean. I still think he is trying to do that. Is he succeeding? I don’t think so.
If it all hits the ground and twitter is no more a going concern will he claim that was his plan all along? Probably. Doesn’t mean it is true.
Even on the day he offered to buy twitter he was offering more money than the stock was worth. That is only rational if you believe you have a plan to run it better.
According to reports he is spending a lot of his time managing twitter in quite a hands-on way. Do you think he is not trying to make it better in his own mind?
> Even on the day he offered to buy twitter he was offering more money than the stock was worth. That is only rational if you believe you have a plan to run it better.
> According to reports he is spending a lot of his time managing twitter in quite a hands-on way. Do you think he is not trying to make it better in his own mind?
I think it's a case of the gambler having enough money to buy the casino.
I think it's a case of the gambler having enough money to buy the casino.
[deleted]
But this sounds incredibly like “buy the dip!”
The situation with twitter is dire. Nothing indicates that any of the things listed are remotely achievable.
How can they brag about freedom of expression and then forbid promoting their competitors through their site? [1]
They are well within their rights to do so, but that's the exact opposite of competing purely in the market of ideas.
1. https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/social-platfo...
They are well within their rights to do so, but that's the exact opposite of competing purely in the market of ideas.
1. https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/social-platfo...
...except they don't do that. This is no different than Reddit's own policies on spam and self-promotion. You're expected to use the site for discussion and building community, not directing people elsewhere. If the latter is your goal then you can pay for advertising. What's changed here is that people who previously were given free reign to promote themselves without paying a dime are now being told they need to pay up. I'm finding it hard to sympathize with them.
Well I find hard to sympathize with the people saying that horrible abuse will not be moderated because "free speech", yet mentioning the fact that you use other social media apps will get your account banned as "unpaid self-promotion".
It doesn't inspire confidence in that their previous stance was truly motivated by their love of the unrestricted diffusion of ideas.
It doesn't inspire confidence in that their previous stance was truly motivated by their love of the unrestricted diffusion of ideas.
> horrible abuse
Every time someone mentions this I ask for examples, and generally all I ever receive in reply are examples of people disagreeing with them. I begin to think that those who shout about 'abuse' are incensed that those they formerly silenced by bending the rules are now using those rules against them, particularly to voice their legitimate opinions, and they're using their institutional power elsewhere to try to tank Twitter as a result.
In short: I know full well that this has nothing to do with free speech arguments and everything to do with institutional actors being incensed that they can't use Twitter as their own propaganda institution anymore. I won't pretend that Elon is a friend of the proletariat, but I'm also not going to pretend that those opposing him somehow are either. This is a slap fight between two groups of bourgeoisie, and petit bourgeoisie actors are trying to convince everyone else it's some sort of fight for liberty, justice, mom and apple pie. Utter nonsense.
In the end, some of you are going to have to accustom yourselves to the idea that you are not gatekeepers of public forums, the people have interests that do not coincide with your own, and no amount of force or fraud is going to change that. Don't like it? Learn to code, I guess.
Every time someone mentions this I ask for examples, and generally all I ever receive in reply are examples of people disagreeing with them. I begin to think that those who shout about 'abuse' are incensed that those they formerly silenced by bending the rules are now using those rules against them, particularly to voice their legitimate opinions, and they're using their institutional power elsewhere to try to tank Twitter as a result.
In short: I know full well that this has nothing to do with free speech arguments and everything to do with institutional actors being incensed that they can't use Twitter as their own propaganda institution anymore. I won't pretend that Elon is a friend of the proletariat, but I'm also not going to pretend that those opposing him somehow are either. This is a slap fight between two groups of bourgeoisie, and petit bourgeoisie actors are trying to convince everyone else it's some sort of fight for liberty, justice, mom and apple pie. Utter nonsense.
In the end, some of you are going to have to accustom yourselves to the idea that you are not gatekeepers of public forums, the people have interests that do not coincide with your own, and no amount of force or fraud is going to change that. Don't like it? Learn to code, I guess.
> Every time someone mentions this I ask for examples, and generally all I ever receive in reply are examples of people disagreeing with them
Then you haven't been watching harassment on trans and other LGBT people, being told to die in horrible ways (I'm sure you can point to other high-profile people getting that kind of threats, but this one gets such abuse merely for existing).
Fully agree that having public forums gatekeeped by centralized actors deciding what you can communicate is worrisome; we should get distributed ways to announce the existence of your personal publications to people that may be interested in its subject - like like the Usenet newsgroups of old (which are still in operation, but are not known to the general public).
Then you haven't been watching harassment on trans and other LGBT people, being told to die in horrible ways (I'm sure you can point to other high-profile people getting that kind of threats, but this one gets such abuse merely for existing).
Fully agree that having public forums gatekeeped by centralized actors deciding what you can communicate is worrisome; we should get distributed ways to announce the existence of your personal publications to people that may be interested in its subject - like like the Usenet newsgroups of old (which are still in operation, but are not known to the general public).
People believed he could make Twitter better based on the assumption that he will implement these changes. I personally thought it'd be great if we could tailor our own recommendation algorithms. Turns out none of those happened and this has been a dumpster fire all along.
> Majority of people here on HN were also convinced he will try to make Twitter better.
I was one of them. But slowly we saw him fuck it up, and then double down. Twitter is toast unless Elon is dumped by his investors
I was one of them. But slowly we saw him fuck it up, and then double down. Twitter is toast unless Elon is dumped by his investors
See also Donald Trump, 2016.
Some of those people especially the YC alumni need to be upfront about whether they’ve invested in Musk’s Twitter. Because direct questions have been asked without answer.
Because otherwise I can not understand the logic behind defending Musk’s reign as CEO. Ignoring the chaotic policy changes what bothers me is the treatment of Twitter’s employees. Nobody should ever have to leave their house because of death threats. And surely Parag/Jack should be ultimately held accountable for what happened at the company under their reign.
Because otherwise I can not understand the logic behind defending Musk’s reign as CEO. Ignoring the chaotic policy changes what bothers me is the treatment of Twitter’s employees. Nobody should ever have to leave their house because of death threats. And surely Parag/Jack should be ultimately held accountable for what happened at the company under their reign.
The hubris is what gets me. The sheer audacity that the peons had in suggesting Musk didn't know what he was doing!
Yet, he has the courage of expressing those opinions without sarcasm, on his own public account, and later own admit to change his mind, while being a very exposed figure.
And you use a throwaway.
And you use a throwaway.
Without sarcasm?
It’s hubris to question the authority? I thought it was a fundamental American pastime.
He waited for evidence. I think PG made a good call.
Based on the weight of Elon's past achievements PG gave him the benefit of the doubt. Then when Elon overstepped he reacted appropriately.
The evidence was in plain sight before Musk took over. He's not the kind of person that should run something like Twitter, it was going to be a disaster.
OK, but to be fair[1], that's what we want, right? Our thought leaders should change their minds when they turn out to have been wrong, and correct. pg is doing good here, and that needs to be celebrated and not mocked. We all get stuff mixed up.
[1] And for the record I think pg indeed ignored WAY too many red flags for WAY too long in this particular case.
[1] And for the record I think pg indeed ignored WAY too many red flags for WAY too long in this particular case.
Absolutely. I'm glad to see this.
If I was a friend of his, I'd suggest that it's a good chance to think about why he was convinced Elon would do well and adjust as necessary, but it's also quite possible that he doesn't feel like he's obliged to do that self-examination in public. And he's not.
If I was a friend of his, I'd suggest that it's a good chance to think about why he was convinced Elon would do well and adjust as necessary, but it's also quite possible that he doesn't feel like he's obliged to do that self-examination in public. And he's not.
It looks to me like he might still be ignoring those red flags. Like I said elsewhere, PG can be an inspiration and still be wrong about a whole bunch of things.
> Amazing that just a month ago he tweeted[1]: "It's remarkable how many people who've never run any kind of company think they know how to run a tech company better than someone who's run Tesla and SpaceX.".
That is still a valid point tho. The thing is, we're not going to know who is right or wrong until it all plays out. And considering there are billions on the lines and Musk plays fast and loose with the rules, he's probably going to come out of the otherside better for it.
> It's been fascinating watching so many VC types ignore so many red flags just because some of Elon's early actions validated their priors (e.g. tech companies are bloated and need to layoff staff).
Again it's still a valid point. Tech companies are bloated and need to layoff staff, that's why they're ALL doing it.
People can be right and still do dumb jackass moves.
That is still a valid point tho. The thing is, we're not going to know who is right or wrong until it all plays out. And considering there are billions on the lines and Musk plays fast and loose with the rules, he's probably going to come out of the otherside better for it.
> It's been fascinating watching so many VC types ignore so many red flags just because some of Elon's early actions validated their priors (e.g. tech companies are bloated and need to layoff staff).
Again it's still a valid point. Tech companies are bloated and need to layoff staff, that's why they're ALL doing it.
People can be right and still do dumb jackass moves.
Paul's first comment [1] in the referenced tweet says: "Do you think Elon will fail and Twitter will go out of business?" and finished it with: "Bet your reputation on a prediction now".. it's a heavy prediction and a bold statement to bet your reputation on!!
1. https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1593199305384685573
1. https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1593199305384685573
And then immediately blocks anyone criticizing his asinine take: https://twitter.com/fennecsound/status/1592855964474298368
Called this a month ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33659020
"The emperors have no clothes"
Called this a month ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33659020
"The emperors have no clothes"
Another well-known notable over-eager divergent opinion blocker is Garry Tan [0].
This is the first time I've seen the finger of accusation point to Paul Graham for excessively blocking. Is it possible the @fennecsound account participated in previous harassment and the target doesn't wish to endure more low-quality interactions?
My expectation is: HN folks, being generally sensitive souls, would have spoken up vocally on this site if it were a common ocurrence. I couldn't find any such prior accusations on algolia or web search.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32639125
Edit: Thanks for the reality check replies! Perhaps story submissions and discussions on this matter get flagged and die at a high rate.
This is the first time I've seen the finger of accusation point to Paul Graham for excessively blocking. Is it possible the @fennecsound account participated in previous harassment and the target doesn't wish to endure more low-quality interactions?
My expectation is: HN folks, being generally sensitive souls, would have spoken up vocally on this site if it were a common ocurrence. I couldn't find any such prior accusations on algolia or web search.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32639125
Edit: Thanks for the reality check replies! Perhaps story submissions and discussions on this matter get flagged and die at a high rate.
Paul Graham bans people left and right. He's not nearly notable enough for it to become a phenomenon.
He banned me, and I think I've never had an interaction with him.
I've seen people I follow mentioning these bans, but most just shrug.
He banned me, and I think I've never had an interaction with him.
I've seen people I follow mentioning these bans, but most just shrug.
Yep, there have been many on HN mentioning they were banned by him, like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34042395 in this thread
Typical Hot Hand Fallacy [0]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_hand
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_hand
he also had a similar take that I've seen from technologists more than a few times "the man runs a rocket company, how hard can running a social media site be?"
A lot of tech folks seem to have a mindset of a 60s Soviet technocrat. "We shot a dog into space comrades, let's apply our engineering genius to all the social problems the stupid managers can't solve". Spoiler alert, it is pretty hard to govern hundreds of millions of people
A lot of tech folks seem to have a mindset of a 60s Soviet technocrat. "We shot a dog into space comrades, let's apply our engineering genius to all the social problems the stupid managers can't solve". Spoiler alert, it is pretty hard to govern hundreds of millions of people
Still nothing compared to the billions so many VCs have lost on crypto this year ignoring those far more obvious red flags. No matter how bad Elon damages Twitter at the very least its actually still generating revenue. I cannot tell what crypto generated.
Obsession with politics is a cancer that infects even the brightest
Obsession with weird/extremist polarizing politics is a cancer. I don't think you're necessarily going to become incompetent just because you decided to get involved in city government. The critical thinking capability that keeps you from wasting time on QAnon and conspiracy theories is the same stuff that lets you accomplish useful things in the world.
Right? Mass random firings of employees in multiple incompetent waves, blocking and expelling journalists and activists, re-enabling known hate-speech accounts, walking out of press conferences when questioned, spreading QAnon adjacent conspiracy theories... none of this annoyed Paul Graham enough to leave.. and in fact he defended the guy...
But blocking links to Mastodon? That makes him leave? Like, uh, fine, but... maybe he could have not mocked us for pointing out the dysfunction weeks and weeks ago?
Between all the crypto implosions happening and this, wealthy Silicon Valley investor types and their hanger-ons are really having a "moment" these past few months. Sheesh.
But blocking links to Mastodon? That makes him leave? Like, uh, fine, but... maybe he could have not mocked us for pointing out the dysfunction weeks and weeks ago?
Between all the crypto implosions happening and this, wealthy Silicon Valley investor types and their hanger-ons are really having a "moment" these past few months. Sheesh.
This was the straw that broke the camel's back. that doesn't mean he adores the other changes.
None of those things incurred opportunity cost. I don't know who invests in what, but a cynical, logical explanation is on the table.
In a free country there's this thing called the first amendment and freedom of speech; because someone doesn't like a certain opinion doesn't make it hate speech.
However, blocking links to a competitor is pretty clear-cut anticompetitive behavior. Imagine AT&T refusing to serve Verizon's websites.
However, blocking links to a competitor is pretty clear-cut anticompetitive behavior. Imagine AT&T refusing to serve Verizon's websites.
[deleted]
> re-enabling known hate-speech accounts
“Hate speech” is left-wing code for “someone with an opposing point of view”.
Having those accounts unbanned, if nothing else, is a healthy sign.
What this thread is about though (banning outbound links to other platforms), not so much. That plain reeks of desperation.
“Hate speech” is left-wing code for “someone with an opposing point of view”.
Having those accounts unbanned, if nothing else, is a healthy sign.
What this thread is about though (banning outbound links to other platforms), not so much. That plain reeks of desperation.
"Deathcon 3 on jews" is more valuable speech than links to facebook profiles, gotcha.
Uh. Did you miss the part of my comment which said that link-banning being bad?
Also nice hyperbole you got there.
Also nice hyperbole you got there.
What hyperbole? We've got a policy that is link-banning while unbanning people who are holding "legally allowed opinions" (nice edit) like Mr. West and other racists.
The edit was a clarification based on your comment which was clearly misunderstanding what I was trying to say. Nothing malicious/nefarious intended.
Also: while Kanye is clearly his own kind of category of crazy, what “other racists”?
I don’t know a single such case.
Also: while Kanye is clearly his own kind of category of crazy, what “other racists”?
I don’t know a single such case.
> Also: while Kanye is clearly his own kind of category of crazy, what “other racists”?
>
> I don’t know a single such case.
One example I remember reading about was Andrew Anglin [1], the founder of The Daily Stormer [2], a website that, to save you a click, Wikipedia describes as "an American far-right, neo-Nazi, white supremacist, misogynist, Islamophobic, antisemitic, and Holocaust denial commentary and message board website that advocates for a second genocide of Jews".
As his Wikipedia article [1] notes,
> Anglin was banned from Twitter in 2013, but was reinstated weeks after the site was acquired by Elon Musk in 2022.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Anglin
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Stormer
>
> I don’t know a single such case.
One example I remember reading about was Andrew Anglin [1], the founder of The Daily Stormer [2], a website that, to save you a click, Wikipedia describes as "an American far-right, neo-Nazi, white supremacist, misogynist, Islamophobic, antisemitic, and Holocaust denial commentary and message board website that advocates for a second genocide of Jews".
As his Wikipedia article [1] notes,
> Anglin was banned from Twitter in 2013, but was reinstated weeks after the site was acquired by Elon Musk in 2022.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Anglin
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Stormer
Interesting that he never responded to your post.
[deleted]
That seems to be a real boon for advertising revenue there at twitter. Just what advertisers dream of, their ad next to a post by some antisemitism/racism/lgbt hate.
You just lost a large group of potential customers. Brilliant marketing strategy.
Maybe if you sell flags that go on oversized pickups. About everyone else is a miss in that sort of stupidity.
You just lost a large group of potential customers. Brilliant marketing strategy.
Maybe if you sell flags that go on oversized pickups. About everyone else is a miss in that sort of stupidity.
No, it's not code in this case. Many of the accounts he re-enabled were full-on white supremacists. That's not an "opposing point of view" it's beyond the pale of civilized society and we literally fought wars to defeat it last century.
And the list of accounts he banned were from a list left-wing/anarchist accounts given to him by known self-proclaimed fascists.
If you think that's healthy, you have problems.
And the list of accounts he banned were from a list left-wing/anarchist accounts given to him by known self-proclaimed fascists.
If you think that's healthy, you have problems.
Conversely, "an opposing point of view" is right-wing code used to mask hate speech, when it occurs.
Does hate speech exist? Yes. Are we in danger of overusing the term? Yes.
Does hate speech exist? Yes. Are we in danger of overusing the term? Yes.
Social media promotes a vicious callout culture where everything you say in the past is permanently used against you in the court of public opinion whenever you change your mind. While I did not share PG's opinion at the time I also don't think it was completely unreasonable to think that someone like Musk would be capable of running Twitter judiciously after the acquisition. I appreciate that instead of digging in his heels PG seems to have evolved his judgement after recent developments.
> just because some of Elon's early actions validated their priors (e.g. tech companies are bloated and need to layoff staff).
You're right that assuming success at Tesla/SpaceX indicated success at Twitter ended up being wrong.
But these "priors" are still very true. Tech companies are bloated, Elon sucking at running a social network doesn't change that fact
You're right that assuming success at Tesla/SpaceX indicated success at Twitter ended up being wrong.
But these "priors" are still very true. Tech companies are bloated, Elon sucking at running a social network doesn't change that fact
Strong Opinions, Weakly Held comes to mind.
It's interesting how VCs suddenly seem to believe "tech companies are bloated and need to layoff staff", now that they can't just show up at a bank and get literal buckloads of other people's money with no justification or due diligence, but were all in on "tech startups must continually grow at any cost" just a few months ago.
Once again, society will be left holding the rich sociopaths' bags and dealing with the externalities of their uncontrolled gambling.
Once again, society will be left holding the rich sociopaths' bags and dealing with the externalities of their uncontrolled gambling.
I think we can be honest and admit many large tech companies are bloated and can lay off staff - with the proper planning and care. Taking an axe to an org you just took over is typically not associated with proper planning and care.
Of course some tech companies are bloated, and of course some other tech companies must grow further. But the tune about what the tech industry as a whole must do seems to suddenly shift, depending on whether it's pump season or dump season.
I think the way Twitter is faring is actually proof to the contrary, you can't lay off half your staff and expect the machine to just keep chugging along. You either design it from day #1 to be run with a very tight crew or it becomes a much larger machine with a different kind of profile.
Compare Instagram with Twitter.
Compare Instagram with Twitter.
Counterpoint: Netflix, which did a lot of layoffs in the 2000s and as the story goes, redesigned their entire HR process around 'lean'.
I’m sure Netflix in 2000 had a lot simpler tech stack than Twitter in 2020. However your point is taken.
I'm not sure. 2000 is pre-AWS which means a lot of easy things were more complicated than they are now. Though Twitter is famously on-prem as well, so maybe they're equivalent?
My impression is Twitter handles traffic and complexity in a different magnitude than Netflix in the 2000. Internet usage was significantly smaller back then.
On-prem is a good point though. I don’t know a lot about their core infra.
On-prem is a good point though. I don’t know a lot about their core infra.
[deleted]
Why is that amazing? When people do what you think is right, or what you think might be right, you agree with them or willing to see where things go. When people do what you think is wrong you disagree or break with them. That seems perfectly reasonable.
> Why is that amazing?
PG mocked those who thought we would end up here.
PG mocked those who thought we would end up here.
PG confuses me. Sometimes he seems extremely rational but other times he tweets obvious fallacies.
Where is "here" exactly?
Every promise Musk made about Twitter broken in less than two months?
And the demolition of Elon's image as a tech/business genius. If I'd set out to wreck his reputation, I could not have done half the job Musk has done since he bid for Twitter.
The big question now is how much damage can he do? To the world, not just Twitter.
If he wanted to? The man has his own ICBMs and a fleet of land-based remote control bombs in Tesla, not to mention access to all archived DMs on Twitter. There's no way he pulls anything off, because we don't live in a comic book, but it's worrisome to realize that such an "eccentric" visibly has that kind of access.
Hm, the remote controlled bombs angle is one I hadn't clued in to yet. The ICBM one was clear. For both you'd hope that if he tried anything like that his employees would perform a citizens arrest and hand him over to DHS.
Now you've got me worried that in the comic book villain version of reality, that he had mass drivers installed in the Starlink constellation, and is able to hit rival's private jets, but only if their flight plan gets shared on Twitter for some obscure comic book logical reason.
The ability to land shit from orbit at a moving target looks somewhat more menacing from that perspective ;) Fortunately private jets move a lot faster than barges. Think of it as a POC.
I'm not sure what the damage is supposed to be, in apart from to Musk and co-investors. There are enough alternatives, including Mastodon - that people will still be able to share short form content if Twitter disintegrates.
Twitter has the ability to start revolutions and change the course of the war in Ukraine by manipulating support or a lack thereof.
Just imagine the kind of damage that would ensue if for instance all of Twitters DMs became somehow public.
Just imagine the kind of damage that would ensue if for instance all of Twitters DMs became somehow public.
He could have seen it earlier but I appreciate that he is able and willing to change his angle.
Did he change his angle, or is all of it (the initial statement, the leaving, the clarification) just a rich man's self-interest, and no real semantic content?
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1604557444247539712
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1604557444247539712
On the positive side - you have to give it him for realizing his error and facing up to it
Quite the opposite, I think it shows that what you call a red flag, they analyzed seriously before making a judgment. And now that they have more data, they change their mind about their conclusion.
It's the sane thing to do.
It's the sane thing to do.
Then today, he said
> I don't think [Musk] realizes that the techniques that work for cars and rockets don't work in social media
> I don't think [Musk] realizes that the techniques that work for cars and rockets don't work in social media
[deleted]
I mean, it's a flawed system to begin with.
When someone is incapable of building stuff or running a company, we (as a society, collectively) hand them shittons of money to be a VC.
When someone is incapable of building stuff or running a company, we (as a society, collectively) hand them shittons of money to be a VC.
I don't think the investments of what, the 0.1% wealthiest of society is the same as "society collectively" doing anything!
It is society collectively, by allowing those .1% of people have enough money to be able to fund such things on a whim.
considering how many YC-funded ventures have failed, it's hard to believe he'd be wrong about this, too.
And in the replies to this tweet he insists[1] "Elon is a smart guy" in spite of all the evidence to the contrary
[1] https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1604557444247539712
[1] https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1604557444247539712
Elon could both be smart and making huge mistakes. It happens all the time.
This is absolutely true. But I think “smart” leadership avoids repeatedly doubling down on their mistakes. You can, very rarely, double down on what looks like a bad bet and come out ahead. I’m not even sure I’d call that smart but it does happen. But it takes a not-smart person to see the losses stacking up over and over and decide to dig in their heels.
Even if you’re absolutely certain your goals and overall strategy are right a smart person would understand that something needs to change in the messaging and/or execution given the overwhelmingly negative feedback.
Even if you’re absolutely certain your goals and overall strategy are right a smart person would understand that something needs to change in the messaging and/or execution given the overwhelmingly negative feedback.
I really don't want to be defending Elon, but I think saying "Elon must be stupid because of how he handled Twitter" is as silly as "Elon had success with Tesla and SpaceX therefore he knows how to run companies". Those two seem like two extremes.
The answer seems more along the lines of, Twitter and its problems are very very different from Tesla/SpaceX, and while Elon may have been good at the latter, he has zero experience with the former.
That being said, not realizing the above I guess makes him partly not-smart, and I assume the shortsightedness was due to the inflated ego caused by his previous two successes.
The answer seems more along the lines of, Twitter and its problems are very very different from Tesla/SpaceX, and while Elon may have been good at the latter, he has zero experience with the former.
That being said, not realizing the above I guess makes him partly not-smart, and I assume the shortsightedness was due to the inflated ego caused by his previous two successes.
Yes I think it’s probably more accurate to say his problems stem from ego & arrogance rather than stupidity.
Elon's behavior, opinions, and points of view suggest otherwise. His only notable quality is his wealth.
For a classic example see former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. By any conventional measure he was very smart, and yet he made a series of catastrophically bad decisions which are still impacting US national security today.
Intelligence is overrated in leaders. Character, humility, principles, and discipline are far more valuable in avoiding huge mistakes.
Intelligence is overrated in leaders. Character, humility, principles, and discipline are far more valuable in avoiding huge mistakes.
It really depends on the organization being led. Vision is not something you can easily outsource or task subordinates with. I mean one of the classic leader types would never set himself up to fail in early days SpaceX.
What a startup, a market leader and a government organization need are distinct types of leadership. Sometimes there are prodigies who can do two of these. Musk did.
What a startup, a market leader and a government organization need are distinct types of leadership. Sometimes there are prodigies who can do two of these. Musk did.
I think they are laying the groundwork to allow creators to monetize their tweets and additional content. As it stands a lot of creators are monetizing their content off platform (patreon, substack, youtube, onlyfans, etc.) and the goal is to lock them and their content into twitter.
I think it's a good idea as content is king, but they should have rolled this out after they had established an ability to monetize. Once people leave the platform it will be tough to get them back unless they offer a very lucrative comission split with creators.
I think it's a good idea as content is king, but they should have rolled this out after they had established an ability to monetize. Once people leave the platform it will be tough to get them back unless they offer a very lucrative comission split with creators.
Hoping they can restore brand safety to pull that off.
Yeah it's probably that, not that everyone is fleeing Elon's $44 billion dying platform and he's is trying to stop it in whatever way he can.
Do you even use twitter? Activity is the same as it's ever been. I think many people are overstating how many people are "fleeing" because of their personal disdain for Musk.
If they were actually concerned with people fleeing why would they do something which is more likely to make creators leave?
If they were actually concerned with people fleeing why would they do something which is more likely to make creators leave?
> If they were actually concerned with people fleeing why would they do something which is more likely to make creators leave?
you're asking this in a sub-thread about if Elon is smart or not? I thought the answer was obvious.
you're asking this in a sub-thread about if Elon is smart or not? I thought the answer was obvious.
Yes I'm sure you're far more successful than that simpleton Elon.
we were talking about if Elon is stupid. The answer is, obviously, yes. Being stupid has nothing to do with success, also obviously.
Also, people can be both smart and stupid at different times and sometimes even at the same time. It's not a binary thing.
Elon is definitely not a smart human. Maybe 25 years ago he did a thing. Ok.
Intelligence is overrated for it's utility in navigating the world.
This is true. Wealth is what matters in this world, not intelligence.
Okay, so what's you over-under for Elon's IQ, or are you making a subtle distinction between intelligent and smart?
Someone can be both smart and Dunning-Kruger themselves in the face.
I don't know why someone who (self-diagnosed?) as having Asperger's thinks they'd be a good fit for leading a social media company, that feels like having a an amputee selling staircases [0]; but the rocket nerds I follow seem pretty convinced Musk genuinely knows actual rocket science.
[0] as in: it could work, but you'd not expect it by default
I don't know why someone who (self-diagnosed?) as having Asperger's thinks they'd be a good fit for leading a social media company, that feels like having a an amputee selling staircases [0]; but the rocket nerds I follow seem pretty convinced Musk genuinely knows actual rocket science.
[0] as in: it could work, but you'd not expect it by default
He could be a dumb guy make much right. It happens all the time.
He can't alienate a big potential investor to future funds.
I think that, by leaving Twitter alone, he already has. If we've learned something about Elon so far, from previous episodes of the cursed news cycle we all inhabit, is that he's vindictive and petty to an irrational extent (calling rescue officers who don't agree with him pedophiles, banning journalists who report on the jet account, ...)
That relies on Elon still having a lot of funds to invest, not a foregone conclusion at this rate.
TikTok isn't on the list of banned social media links.
He's smart. He's also the last person on the planet that should be in charge of a social media platform.
Smart + deficient in the ethics department is a recipe for disaster.
Smart + deficient in the ethics department is a recipe for disaster.
I am not an Elon fan, but I agree Musk is a smart guy. I just don't think smartness on its own is very valuable. Indeed, it can be very dangerous when it lets you think that you know better than everybody else despite them having way more experience in their fields. A classic example is the XKCD cartoon "Physicists": https://xkcd.com/793/
I've met some incredibly smart narcissists, and you know what they use their smarts for? The same sort of continuous ego inflation that less smart narcissists do. Their smartness just makes things worse, because they're less likely to have the sort of comeuppance that leads to a moment of clarity.
I've met some incredibly smart narcissists, and you know what they use their smarts for? The same sort of continuous ego inflation that less smart narcissists do. Their smartness just makes things worse, because they're less likely to have the sort of comeuppance that leads to a moment of clarity.
Intelligence is neither a binary nor a one-dimentional concept. Within certain contexts Musk is certainly a smart entrepreneur but I would not call him that without a lot of such qualifiers.
Remember how George Lucas made Star Wars and became the genius billionaire who could do no wrong. Then he got a divorce and made Howard the Duck (quite possibly the worst movie of all time).
I think the same thing is happening here. As a startup founder you have guardrails, spouses, investors. You have Brian De Palma rewriting the opening trailer crawl, you have Marcia Lucas helping the edit, and you have your old professor at USC Irvin Kershner guiding your hand.
Now, Elon is the wealthiest man in the world and he has turned into Jar Jar Musk. It's time to see how this bird themed turd pans out.
I think the same thing is happening here. As a startup founder you have guardrails, spouses, investors. You have Brian De Palma rewriting the opening trailer crawl, you have Marcia Lucas helping the edit, and you have your old professor at USC Irvin Kershner guiding your hand.
Now, Elon is the wealthiest man in the world and he has turned into Jar Jar Musk. It's time to see how this bird themed turd pans out.
If you want a really invaluable insight into the early life of Elon, the interview with his first wife is fantastic- https://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/a5380/millionaire-start... . It paints an incredible picture of the man behind the brand and… kind of explains a lot.
"I am your wife," I told him repeatedly, "not your employee."
"If you were my employee," he said just as often, "I would fire you."
"If you were my employee," he said just as often, "I would fire you."
thanks for that link. that pretty much is exactly how I imagine him. I remember reading Ashley Vance's biography. At some point Elon makes a calculation about how many hours a girlfriend would need.
OT, but that take on Lucas has to stop. Was he surrounded by many capable people that contributed to his works in great ways? Of course, that's what collaborative art of movie making is all about. Spielberg movies would probably suffer a lot without Kahn editing them, so would Scorsese's without Thelma Schoonmaker, etc.. Look at the other world-building things Lucas did to gain some perspective on him as an artist - from THX 1138 and Graffiti, over Star Wars OT to Indiana Jones, Willow, and ultimately the prequels - yes, the prequels; Compare their cultural presence and impact (even mentioning Jar Jar here) to what Disney Juggernaut with all of the talent and money couldn't bring to presence. Now, combine that with the gravity around him that brought in people that managed to pull technical wonders of digital video editing (AVID) and image manipulation (Photoshop), and many many other things (THX, Pixar, etc.) on top of all of the legendary businesses that spawned up from Lucas Film itself, to Lucas Arts, Skywalker Sound (THX), and ILM. That's not a coincidence, and not on his ex wife (alone) - that's a bunch of smart and hard-working talented people around guy that told them a story, people including Spielberg, and De Palma, and Coppola... Story which they all liked. Give the guy a break, number of successes around him, and not any of the mentioned individuals, is no coincidence. One Howard the Duck does not his legacy make.
I don't want to dunk on Lucas specifically here. I just want to underscore that this kind of "I did it all myself" mentality can infect anyone - even our most creative and talented human beings.
The technological achievements of ILM and Lucasfilm stand out to me here. Lucas himself is not an expert in any form of VFX whatsoever, but he left the storytelling to himself, and trusted in experts to execute on his vision at a certain point.
No one doubts that the prequels were technologically impressive (Jar Jar included) even if the storytelling was lacklustre, but here Lucas stepped back an enabled his team of experts to do what they did best.
When you're young and ambitious you may be more likely to ask for help, and folks may be more willing to give you help. When your in your 50s and a billionare, it just seems that as a society we make it culturally improper for men to ask for help. Sadly, this is also a demographic with a disproprotionately high suicide rate...
The technological achievements of ILM and Lucasfilm stand out to me here. Lucas himself is not an expert in any form of VFX whatsoever, but he left the storytelling to himself, and trusted in experts to execute on his vision at a certain point.
No one doubts that the prequels were technologically impressive (Jar Jar included) even if the storytelling was lacklustre, but here Lucas stepped back an enabled his team of experts to do what they did best.
When you're young and ambitious you may be more likely to ask for help, and folks may be more willing to give you help. When your in your 50s and a billionare, it just seems that as a society we make it culturally improper for men to ask for help. Sadly, this is also a demographic with a disproprotionately high suicide rate...
This is a phenomenal metaphor that I concur wholeheartedly with and will be stealing. My Star Wars fan friends will understand the point immediately :)
This comment really adds nothing that an upvote wouldn't.
(Yes, ironic since this comment is just a vocalized downvote, but I figured I'd tell you why)
(Yes, ironic since this comment is just a vocalized downvote, but I figured I'd tell you why)
I’ve had the exact same though about George Lucas. Having constraints often forces us to listen to other people, take on advice we don’t want to hear, and tamp down our worst excesses.
When all external constraints are taken away, it’s probably much more of a challenge to stay grounded.
Incidentally, this latest action immediately brought to my mind a Star Wars quote:
“The more you tighten your grip, Elon, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.”
When all external constraints are taken away, it’s probably much more of a challenge to stay grounded.
Incidentally, this latest action immediately brought to my mind a Star Wars quote:
“The more you tighten your grip, Elon, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.”
I'll have to go watch that now.
Maybe watch the pitch meeting first: https://youtube.com/watch?v=3JGmGR9meNc
That's just weird...
> Elon is the wealthiest man in the world
Second wealthiest now…
Second wealthiest now…
Whoa whoa whoa! Worst movie of all time? I still mutter “Slice salami!” To myself while cutting things.
[deleted]
There’s an old adage about never meeting your heroes that applies well to PG.
Some of his daily takes were so embarrassing and insipid that it was hard to maintain respect. It’s funny because his long form posts which are often insightful were likely reviewed/edited by a third person. A concept he has actually said only exists in the modern commercial publishing era.
Some of his daily takes were so embarrassing and insipid that it was hard to maintain respect. It’s funny because his long form posts which are often insightful were likely reviewed/edited by a third person. A concept he has actually said only exists in the modern commercial publishing era.
>were likely reviewed/edited by a third person
or else just had the benefit of more time to think about them. i certainly know i say some dumb stuff, but if i write it down and think about it for a week before saying it to anybody else, i'm going to censor like 90% of the stuff that comes out of my head.
or else just had the benefit of more time to think about them. i certainly know i say some dumb stuff, but if i write it down and think about it for a week before saying it to anybody else, i'm going to censor like 90% of the stuff that comes out of my head.
That was always the dumbest criticism of Obama - that he took frequent pauses when speaking (the uuuuhs) and chose his words carefully - his critics used it against him where anyone with half of brain understood why. That being said, Trump essentially DDoS the art of the inartful / wrong / dumb, so maybe that was a better way to go. Who knows....
Very off topic, but... Most presidential speeches are written by a speech writer & displayed on the teleprompter, not ad libbed on the spot. The "uuuuhs" were an intentional mannerism.
> were likely reviewed/edited by a third person
You don't have to guess, he lists the names of every person who reviews his posts at the bottom of the posts.
You don't have to guess, he lists the names of every person who reviews his posts at the bottom of the posts.
It's very hard to be smart all the time, and you don't have to be stupid to be wrong.
what you have to do is correctly assess yourself, which is impossibly rare among people who made a bunch money
Especially amoung the people that will get in front of a crowd and shout "I'm rich, bitch!"
Doubly so when intersected with the crowd that publicly eschews earthly possessions.
Turns out hypocrites aren't self aware
Doubly so when intersected with the crowd that publicly eschews earthly possessions.
Turns out hypocrites aren't self aware
Really like this comment -- dovetails nicely with Bill Gates "Success is a lousy teacher. It seduces smart people into thinking they can't lose," and helps illuminate the fundamental problem: status insulates you from accountability, but without accountability you lose a crucial form of feedback essential in nearly everyone's ability to correctly assess themselves.
> There's an old adage about never meeting your heroes that applies well to PG.
I wonder how much of that is down to the person themselves (judging someone else, through the lense of whatever prejudices and biases) and not their heroes.
As they say from where I am: short of meeting true evil, there's no one worse than your own self.
I wonder how much of that is down to the person themselves (judging someone else, through the lense of whatever prejudices and biases) and not their heroes.
As they say from where I am: short of meeting true evil, there's no one worse than your own self.
I've met PG at a book signing and he was quite pleasant. I asked about when Arc would be released (this was a while back) and he laughed and joked about it. Really nice guy.
Do you really think twitter equates to meeting someone?
Do you really think twitter equates to meeting someone?
> Do you really think twitter equates to meeting someone?
I think you learn more about a person through Twitter than meeting them since for better or worse people drop the polite, professional veneer that normally associates face to face meetings.
It showcases (a) what concerns them so much they have to Tweet about it, (b) what their values are, (c) how they read situations, (d) how they treat people etc.
It's weirdly like you're watching them perform in some scientific experiment and seeing how they react to different stimuli.
I think you learn more about a person through Twitter than meeting them since for better or worse people drop the polite, professional veneer that normally associates face to face meetings.
It showcases (a) what concerns them so much they have to Tweet about it, (b) what their values are, (c) how they read situations, (d) how they treat people etc.
It's weirdly like you're watching them perform in some scientific experiment and seeing how they react to different stimuli.
But you go to far. "Meeting someone" is meeting that public veneer that they use when meeting new/random people. It is not spending a lot of time with them and getting to know them. It is about how first, in-person impressions match up against your expectations.
Do you think that meeting someone at his book signing equates to meeting him?
> Do you really think twitter equates to meeting someone?
That really is one of the worst parts of Twitter. The form of short-form drive interaction encourages some of the most pithy and dismissive conversations and leads to some really hostile interactions that often dispense with human decency.
(I mean, not restricted to Twitter, I've experienced it here, and on Mastodon, but Twitter really takes the cake.)
That really is one of the worst parts of Twitter. The form of short-form drive interaction encourages some of the most pithy and dismissive conversations and leads to some really hostile interactions that often dispense with human decency.
(I mean, not restricted to Twitter, I've experienced it here, and on Mastodon, but Twitter really takes the cake.)
GP is calling pg dumb, not mean - your anecdote is compatible.
You cannot be both pleasant and dumb. Dumb people are inherently annoying.
Dude the other day he said "Automation is inductive proof that Marx is wrong"! A mistake you wouldn't make if you sniffed Marx's wikipedia page, let alone opened your eyes to read it.
pg deleted it and posted this response: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1600122386346450944
(...after, hilariously, Matt Bruenig replied with a correction from ChatGPT - which is also deleted because he auto-deletes tweets.)
e: Reading the thread now, I love this reply from pg, who I've seen attack marxism, socialism, leftism, what-have-you, endlessly and smugly in the past:
> I freely admit I have only a superficial grasp of Marxist doctrine. I could no more debate the finer points of it with an actual Marxist than I could debate the finer points of church doctrine with a Jesuit. (Nor would I want to be able to do either.)
The finer points!!! Amazing. Something to keep in mind when the billionaires tell the ol' lefties to read econ 101!
pg deleted it and posted this response: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1600122386346450944
(...after, hilariously, Matt Bruenig replied with a correction from ChatGPT - which is also deleted because he auto-deletes tweets.)
e: Reading the thread now, I love this reply from pg, who I've seen attack marxism, socialism, leftism, what-have-you, endlessly and smugly in the past:
> I freely admit I have only a superficial grasp of Marxist doctrine. I could no more debate the finer points of it with an actual Marxist than I could debate the finer points of church doctrine with a Jesuit. (Nor would I want to be able to do either.)
The finer points!!! Amazing. Something to keep in mind when the billionaires tell the ol' lefties to read econ 101!
That particular exchange really was one of the most embarrassing and ignorant ones I've seen on part of pg.
I hope he got a refund from the ghostwriter for that one.
Twitter now says paulg account suspended
Quoting the GP tweet to the one you linked:
> You still occasionally hear people saying that founders don't deserve to be rich, because their employees created all the value. But the falsity of this claim becomes increasingly obvious as automation enables founders to grow companies with fewer and fewer employees.
Do you disagree with this, or just disagree that it’s in contradiction to Marx?
> You still occasionally hear people saying that founders don't deserve to be rich, because their employees created all the value. But the falsity of this claim becomes increasingly obvious as automation enables founders to grow companies with fewer and fewer employees.
Do you disagree with this, or just disagree that it’s in contradiction to Marx?
To start with, "don't deserve [...] because employees created all the value" is a straw man. Lots of other value Out There that they exploit that comes from other places than their employees' labor but also isn't "created" by the founder. Also lots of reasons people shouldn't be rich, whether or not they are founders and whether or not they "created" value.
Disagree that this is even the question. The role of "founder" is mostly tangential to the discussion - rather it's the "owner" that Marxists would argue don't deserve their wealth (and if it's the same person, you have to separate the roles in your head - the 'founder' role produce some irreplaceable value, while the 'owner' role is easily replaced.)
The fact that automation makes your firm exponentially more productive over time doesn't contradict Marx at all. That's just a premise he borrows from classical economics to then argue why that leads to bad stuff, in his view. It seems like maybe PG is taking issue with the labor theory of value or something? In which case... /shrug, that's ok, get in line with the rest of us?
What's really happening here though is PG isn't familiar with the discourse whatsoever, so he makes a weird scattered argument and smugly attributes some strawman opinion to Marxists, then gets mad at the reaction. Trying to make sense of it as if he knows what he's talking about just kinda leads to insanity.
e: I'm also not claiming to have some deep knowledge of Marxism at all... I've read like 1 or 2 chapters of Capital. It's just that, like I said above, you just have to have basic familiarity to realize PG speaks from his ass.
The fact that automation makes your firm exponentially more productive over time doesn't contradict Marx at all. That's just a premise he borrows from classical economics to then argue why that leads to bad stuff, in his view. It seems like maybe PG is taking issue with the labor theory of value or something? In which case... /shrug, that's ok, get in line with the rest of us?
What's really happening here though is PG isn't familiar with the discourse whatsoever, so he makes a weird scattered argument and smugly attributes some strawman opinion to Marxists, then gets mad at the reaction. Trying to make sense of it as if he knows what he's talking about just kinda leads to insanity.
e: I'm also not claiming to have some deep knowledge of Marxism at all... I've read like 1 or 2 chapters of Capital. It's just that, like I said above, you just have to have basic familiarity to realize PG speaks from his ass.
Something I explained to my children today: don’t tweet about things you explained to your children today apropos of nothing, it makes you sounds like a jackass
He actually wrote a blog post about how he writes. He sends drafts to people and heavily rewrites, sometimes over the course of weeks or months (IIRC).
So, yea, the agitated dad vibes get (dare I say) edited out in the process.
So, yea, the agitated dad vibes get (dare I say) edited out in the process.
There’s another one: the medium is the message
PG still has an excellent batting average and is more insightful than not even on Twitter.
I feel that there's a fitting SMBC on this topic.
https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2010-01-29
https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2010-01-29
So I notice a trend for people to take seem to take stabs at PG whenever he's brought up, and sometimes not seemingly even relevant to the article at hand.
I suppose you can only speak for yourself, but I find the words "insipid" and "embarrassing" particularly emotional / unscientific. Out of curiosity, what is there a connection to the article at hand or alternatively why do you feel it's important to spread awareness of his incompetence?
I suppose you can only speak for yourself, but I find the words "insipid" and "embarrassing" particularly emotional / unscientific. Out of curiosity, what is there a connection to the article at hand or alternatively why do you feel it's important to spread awareness of his incompetence?
Just last month, he was passionately defending Elon Musk's decisions running Twitter, on Twitter, from all those annoying plebs who dared to speak their minds about it, not even having ran any companies themselves.
The topic of "the article at hand" is, inevitably, his incompetence.
The topic of "the article at hand" is, inevitably, his incompetence.
Are you saying frustration is simply that he changed his mind on this issue then? And actually it sounds like you think he changed his mind in the right direction.
Was he rude to you personally or something?
Was he rude to you personally or something?
Why would you think that science has anything to do with this?
Related ongoing thread:
Twitter Suspends PG's Account - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34044047
I'm moving the current thread (the earlier one) off the front page, partly because these are more or less the same story, but mostly because the traffic on this is boiling our poor server and I need to resort to tricks. Sorry all!
In case you're not aware: you need to click on the "more comments" links at the bottom of the pages to get to the rest of the thread; also, you can make HN faster by logging out when it's keeling over. Also, genuine performance improvements shouldn't be too far off now.
Twitter Suspends PG's Account - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34044047
I'm moving the current thread (the earlier one) off the front page, partly because these are more or less the same story, but mostly because the traffic on this is boiling our poor server and I need to resort to tricks. Sorry all!
In case you're not aware: you need to click on the "more comments" links at the bottom of the pages to get to the rest of the thread; also, you can make HN faster by logging out when it's keeling over. Also, genuine performance improvements shouldn't be too far off now.
For those wondering about how to sign up to mastodon and what server to pick:
It's like picking an email server. They all have their differences, but generally they are interoperable. You can read users from anywhere, and follow from anywhere. Better yet, it's fairly easy to move your account from one server to another if you don't like it.
Your best bet is some of the bigger second-tier servers (ones that have thousands but not hundreds of thousands of users) because they aren't as heavily loaded.
https://instances.social/
https://github.com/McKael/mastodon-documentation/blob/master...
It's like picking an email server. They all have their differences, but generally they are interoperable. You can read users from anywhere, and follow from anywhere. Better yet, it's fairly easy to move your account from one server to another if you don't like it.
Your best bet is some of the bigger second-tier servers (ones that have thousands but not hundreds of thousands of users) because they aren't as heavily loaded.
https://instances.social/
https://github.com/McKael/mastodon-documentation/blob/master...
> Your best bet is some of the bigger second-tier servers.
Until they get overloaded, and face the same issues as the "first tier" ones...
I know that what I am about to say is out of personal interest, but I really wish people took the analogy to email servers more seriously and started looking at commercial providers. I'm offering Mastodon services for about $0.50/user/month [0], and I have the infra to host 20-30k users efficiently.
For this type of case, there is nothing more sustainable, fair and efficient than letting the market figure things out. But if we keep thinking that accounts should be offered for free, there will be always market distortions.
[0] https://communick.com/packages
Until they get overloaded, and face the same issues as the "first tier" ones...
I know that what I am about to say is out of personal interest, but I really wish people took the analogy to email servers more seriously and started looking at commercial providers. I'm offering Mastodon services for about $0.50/user/month [0], and I have the infra to host 20-30k users efficiently.
For this type of case, there is nothing more sustainable, fair and efficient than letting the market figure things out. But if we keep thinking that accounts should be offered for free, there will be always market distortions.
[0] https://communick.com/packages
I created my twitter account when sending tweet via text was still a thing. Never really used it, so I'm not the right demographic.
But I do think your approach is the right one. I hope you succeed a breaking even and generate a margin for your time.
But I do think your approach is the right one. I hope you succeed a breaking even and generate a margin for your time.
Thank you for your kind words. If Twitter/Mastodon is not what you need, perhaps I could interest you in my hosted XMPP and Matrix offerings?
I’m self hosting those, thanks.
I did notice your offering in the prices.
Maybe you could benefit from clearer price ? For instance not mixing group prices with prices for single accounts?
Idk I suck at that, but I know all those services pretty well and I was having difficulty to follow prices.
Maybe you could benefit from clearer price ? For instance not mixing group prices with prices for single accounts?
Idk I suck at that, but I know all those services pretty well and I was having difficulty to follow prices.
That page (like many others) do need a lot of UX love. Pretty soon I hope to be launching managed instance hosting (i.e, people that want to have their own instance, under their own domain) and I'm already scratching my head at how to present two complete different classes of products on the same page.
Figuring out these small issues is hard, it gets even harder when I am promising that I am not doing any type of user tracking or analytics. I just saw a message on the support site about someone who wanted to make a deposit, but reported "on mobile, the button is grayed out". Turns out that on mobile there is no cursor to indicate that the user needs to select the payment method first. So, technically not broken, but functionally this issue could've cost me hundreds of dollars already?
Figuring out these small issues is hard, it gets even harder when I am promising that I am not doing any type of user tracking or analytics. I just saw a message on the support site about someone who wanted to make a deposit, but reported "on mobile, the button is grayed out". Turns out that on mobile there is no cursor to indicate that the user needs to select the payment method first. So, technically not broken, but functionally this issue could've cost me hundreds of dollars already?
Yah. Oh god am I confortable in my golden cage with a team of Ux people responsible for that …
Is there a way for me to export if I decide to self host later?
I don't have the time to set up a Mastodon server right now, but part of the appeal of Mastodon is having more control over my data.
I don't have the time to set up a Mastodon server right now, but part of the appeal of Mastodon is having more control over my data.
Yes, you can export your data to any new server and you can even redirect your followers to your new identity. You´d only have trouble if the instance admin blocks your account before you get to do any of that, but for anything like that to happen you'd have to have done something truly egregious and/or your admin is one shitty, petty person.
Yes, you can export, and most servers will put up a helpful forward pointer once you move your account so people see where your new profile is. I haven't tried it but others who have seem to keep all their followers / following seamlessly.
Yes, there is a button to export all your data as csv.
Honestly, i think something better can be done around the Activitypub protocol than mastodon. And i'm not a social media guy, so i will wait until someting better is built.
Honestly, i think something better can be done around the Activitypub protocol than mastodon. And i'm not a social media guy, so i will wait until someting better is built.
> It's like picking an email server. They all have their differences, but generally they are interoperable.
Disagree. Mastodon servers can be all over the place from politics to hobbies to tech. It’s not like an email handle at all your choice _matters_ because others moderate the server and who you can connect with.
Self hosting is the only way to go with Mastodon (costs the same as Twitter Blue btw if you don’t want to do your own)
Disagree. Mastodon servers can be all over the place from politics to hobbies to tech. It’s not like an email handle at all your choice _matters_ because others moderate the server and who you can connect with.
Self hosting is the only way to go with Mastodon (costs the same as Twitter Blue btw if you don’t want to do your own)
Yes that's true in terms of the local feeds, but in terms of getting one's feet wet it's fine.
For HN users, this is one among many reasonable tech-oriented choices:
https://techhub.social
Here are a couple that are infosec oriented:
https://infosec.exchange
https://ioc.exchange/
For HN users, this is one among many reasonable tech-oriented choices:
https://techhub.social
Here are a couple that are infosec oriented:
https://infosec.exchange
https://ioc.exchange/
But is there something, like, serving as a bridge to Twitter and stuff? I'm really uneducated in this stuff, I don't have an account neither on Twitter, nor on Mastodon, and I don't really understand, what people do on Twitter. For me, the only reason I ever wanted to join Twitter (but not strongly enough for me to type in my phone number) is being subscribed to all these celebrities like Musk, Kanye West or whoever is the most popular ATM, just to cut out one link in the chain and seeing that stuff before it appears in the news anyway.
Just be careful to choose a reputable server, because the moderators will be able to read your DMs.
I think DMs should be treated as semi-public on any platform without end-to-end encryption and a method for verifying keys of who you're DMing. So not really that different than Twitter, Facebook, and many others.
[deleted]
It's interesting to see these tech influencers and their lag time on giving Elon the benefit of the doubt before they've had enough. Will Elon ever have a "coming to jesus moment" and realize that he's alienated so many of his peers that he is, in fact, in the wrong? Or is he so delusional that he really does believe he has the answers?
Musk seems to be speedrunning into Howard Hughes status.
He has so much wealth that, like Hughes, he could alienate every business contact and still spend the rest of his life making leftfield investments and watching movies naked in a dark hotel room. (Well, replace watching movies with tweeting, I suppose.)
He has so much wealth that, like Hughes, he could alienate every business contact and still spend the rest of his life making leftfield investments and watching movies naked in a dark hotel room. (Well, replace watching movies with tweeting, I suppose.)
This to me feels like the right analogy.
It’s both possible that Musk is a genius and that he’s cracked as many geniuses do.
His embarrassment in no way erases his accomplishments of the past decade and warrant a “he was never smart”.
But his downright pathetic demeanor the past few months do eclipse and ruin what could’ve been an incredible legacy.
It’s both possible that Musk is a genius and that he’s cracked as many geniuses do.
His embarrassment in no way erases his accomplishments of the past decade and warrant a “he was never smart”.
But his downright pathetic demeanor the past few months do eclipse and ruin what could’ve been an incredible legacy.
Not sure his recent behaviour ruins his legacy. It’s likely far more will be remembered of say SpaceX than of this Twitter debacle. At least - to date.
But overall yes agree a great achiever (never sure about that genius tag) who has lost the plot.
But overall yes agree a great achiever (never sure about that genius tag) who has lost the plot.
There are press articles that say that Musk showed his friends the benefits of MDMA, Mushrooms, psychedelics, marijuana.
I dont know if he does drugs, but sure he seems to behave strange.
I dont know if he does drugs, but sure he seems to behave strange.
Just a reminder that just because liberals are freaking out, doesn’t mean it’s a shared opinion. I see this happening on HN constantly where over time the hivemind shares their in-group responses to articles blasting whatever their current enemy is (yes it’s heavily liberal here).
Then after a few weeks of this, you start seeing funny comment threads like this. Where there’s this sort of this tactic to take control of the narrative, and make it seem like everyone agrees that X is bad.
It works really well because of course even if only a few people leave Twitter in rage, now we can share that as proof of status quo and keep building the narrative.
Just a reminder - this is only a view shared by the extremely online / tech / liberal bubble.
As an example, on more conservative discussions boards you see the same thing happening on the opposite side. Until threads are literally fully premised on the fact that everyone agrees that someone or some org is “speedrunning Y” or whatever.
My feedback is this: don’t write like this. It makes you look daft, because it shows ether you don’t realize you’re in an opinion bubble, or you’re a willing participant in gaslighting for the only purpose of back patting / narrative control. I see this stuff all the damn time and usually ignore, but nice to have a chance to clarify this.
Then after a few weeks of this, you start seeing funny comment threads like this. Where there’s this sort of this tactic to take control of the narrative, and make it seem like everyone agrees that X is bad.
It works really well because of course even if only a few people leave Twitter in rage, now we can share that as proof of status quo and keep building the narrative.
Just a reminder - this is only a view shared by the extremely online / tech / liberal bubble.
As an example, on more conservative discussions boards you see the same thing happening on the opposite side. Until threads are literally fully premised on the fact that everyone agrees that someone or some org is “speedrunning Y” or whatever.
My feedback is this: don’t write like this. It makes you look daft, because it shows ether you don’t realize you’re in an opinion bubble, or you’re a willing participant in gaslighting for the only purpose of back patting / narrative control. I see this stuff all the damn time and usually ignore, but nice to have a chance to clarify this.
What even is this? They’re sharing an opinion…
Every comment in this thread is phrased in a way that assumes he’s “cracked” and then goes on as though it’s universally understood.
They’d all be a lot more convincing by even just acknowledging it’s a hypothetical before leaping into crazy territory.
> Will Elon ever have a "coming to jesus moment" and realize that he's alienated so many of his peers that he is, in fact, in the wrong? Or is he so delusional that he really does believe he has the answers?
I mean read this… do I have it spell out why this reads ridiculously / assumes facts that are clearly untrue?
They’d all be a lot more convincing by even just acknowledging it’s a hypothetical before leaping into crazy territory.
> Will Elon ever have a "coming to jesus moment" and realize that he's alienated so many of his peers that he is, in fact, in the wrong? Or is he so delusional that he really does believe he has the answers?
I mean read this… do I have it spell out why this reads ridiculously / assumes facts that are clearly untrue?
What facts does it assume? That Elon alienated peers?
I think Elon acted impulsively. He realized it but it was too late. A lot of the Twitter Files stuff is an attempt at revenge against the executive team that forced him to close. The problem is going full red pill is not smart tech business. He’s reaching MyPillow levels of conspiracy mongering.
I think Elon acted impulsively. He realized it but it was too late. A lot of the Twitter Files stuff is an attempt at revenge against the executive team that forced him to close. The problem is going full red pill is not smart tech business. He’s reaching MyPillow levels of conspiracy mongering.
He'll go well beyond that. Hughes stopped at self destruct. Musk is likely to take a lot of people and institutions with him on the way down.
With the bigotry and cars I tend to think Ford, not Hughes.
Very likely the only people who can reliably send that message to Musk are $TSLA investors. Until he has the cushion provided by $TSLA stock price, he is pretty much going to continue doing whatever he wants to.
Everyone shrugged off the "pedo guy" episode as a lapse of judgment and not a glimpse into his real personality.
Musk did publicly apologize to the diver and the courts ruled that Musk was not liable, so lots of people considered it a settled matter. I considered Musk a cool tech person before that event, then a weird tech person after that. Since 2020 though he has turned into just an awful tech person.
Apologies and atonement are one thing but I think it takes a certain level of emotional deficiency to even have the impulse to use your position of power to lob such petty insults. It's grossly abnormal. Same thing for people like Kanye West or Will Smith. They can tap dance between insane behavior and apologizing but like why would they ever do the things they do in the first place if they were decent people.
Elon has been in the middle of his "come to Jesus" moment for a while.
He is running Twitter like an autocratic dictator. He is restoring extremist right wing accounts. He is banning open conversation and dissent. He is peddling QAnon conspiracy theories. He was against all covid measures and called for Fauci's arrest. He has cozied up to China and middle eastern dictatorships while putting up the "free speech" charade against democrats in the US. He was most recently hanging out with Jared Kushner in a private box at the world cup final.
Why are people still doubting who he really is?
He is running Twitter like an autocratic dictator. He is restoring extremist right wing accounts. He is banning open conversation and dissent. He is peddling QAnon conspiracy theories. He was against all covid measures and called for Fauci's arrest. He has cozied up to China and middle eastern dictatorships while putting up the "free speech" charade against democrats in the US. He was most recently hanging out with Jared Kushner in a private box at the world cup final.
Why are people still doubting who he really is?
You're assuming that Elon isn't doing what he intended to do, turn Twitter into his own personal, right wing echo-chamber with political influence.
Those have never done well. They want the angry/upset reaction they can't get in an echo chamber; the Parlers, Truth Socials, Gabs etc. will never give them this.
They're already asking Musk to stop lefties from being able to even block them; it's the same phenomeon as incels. Free speech was never enough; they want an audience guaranteed, too. https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1604052966839062528
They're already asking Musk to stop lefties from being able to even block them; it's the same phenomeon as incels. Free speech was never enough; they want an audience guaranteed, too. https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1604052966839062528
There's this shading in free speech absolutists from "I have a right to say what I want" to "I have the right to the audience I want".
That’s simply not true, per the policy:
https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/social-platfo...
> At both the Tweet level and the account level, we will remove any free promotion of prohibited 3rd-party social media platforms, such as linking out (i.e. using URLs) to any of the below platforms on Twitter, or providing your handle without a URL…
https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/social-platfo...
> At both the Tweet level and the account level, we will remove any free promotion of prohibited 3rd-party social media platforms, such as linking out (i.e. using URLs) to any of the below platforms on Twitter, or providing your handle without a URL…
I don't follow. Did you mean to reply to a different comment?
Yes I believe so. HN is loading too slow to find it, but a sister comment that stated the policy only applies to accounts whose primary purpose is to share other social media links. This is now further evidenced by PG’s account being suspended.
As much as I dislike Musk and what he's done to Twitter, I suspect he didn't intend that. I just think that's the natural outcome of his feelings, his position in society, and his relentless self focus.
David Roth did a good job looking at the dynamic: https://defector.com/the-eternal-mystery-of-a-rich-mans-poli...
And Adam Serwer has a useful take as well: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/12/legal-righ...
David Roth did a good job looking at the dynamic: https://defector.com/the-eternal-mystery-of-a-rich-mans-poli...
And Adam Serwer has a useful take as well: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/12/legal-righ...
He's tweeted out some pretty hard right wing talking points and advocated voting for conservatives. It seems pretty intentional.
I agree he holds those opinions. I just don't think his intent in buying Twitter was to put it in the tank for the right.
It's not clear to me that he had a fully formed intent when he made a bid for it. And a big piece of evidence there was that he tried to weasel out and was forced to buy it. Another bit of evidence is the way he has obviously been impulsively half-assing pretty much everything he's done since he took it over. He does not look like a man with a plan.
But to the extent that he had clear intent, I think it was more about hubris. There's this phenomenon in the food industry where a rich person will basically say, "I have eaten at a lot of restaurants, so I'd be really good at running one!" So they will spend a bunch of money on launching and unless they hired competent industry experts and deferred to them, they'll create a clusterfuck. I think it's a similar deal with Musk: He was a dedicated and successful Twitter user, and he thought he could run it better. Turned out it was harder than it looks.
It's not clear to me that he had a fully formed intent when he made a bid for it. And a big piece of evidence there was that he tried to weasel out and was forced to buy it. Another bit of evidence is the way he has obviously been impulsively half-assing pretty much everything he's done since he took it over. He does not look like a man with a plan.
But to the extent that he had clear intent, I think it was more about hubris. There's this phenomenon in the food industry where a rich person will basically say, "I have eaten at a lot of restaurants, so I'd be really good at running one!" So they will spend a bunch of money on launching and unless they hired competent industry experts and deferred to them, they'll create a clusterfuck. I think it's a similar deal with Musk: He was a dedicated and successful Twitter user, and he thought he could run it better. Turned out it was harder than it looks.
He could have bought parler, truth or whatever for far less and already been closer to his goal.
Twitter was/remains? a geopolitical & cultural instrument. The precise reason why there is a fight over who gets to say what on Twitter is because it is a powerful platform for propaganda and agitprop. You can organize uprisings on Twitter. That is why it is such a hot potato. (It is not about utility. think Payless vs Prada.)
Elon apparently bet on the fact that the establishment could not stomach the idea of reconstructing that high visibility platform elsewhere. Everyone knows it is not simply about technology. Twitter remains "the clown car that fell into a gold mine". He will probe on how far he can go but will promptly retreat (ex: EU).
My guess is that his strategy is to prolong this period of uncertainty. Things like PG's decision may signal a consensus that they need to reconstruct humpty dumpty elsewhere.
Watch for trends in use of twitter as a news source in establishment press. If that significantly declines, the political class will follow.
p.s. It is upsetting to think that one of the immediate beneficiaries of Twitter itself being 'deplatformed from polite society' is the relief it offers regimes like Islamic Republic. They are happy, that much is fairly certain.
Elon apparently bet on the fact that the establishment could not stomach the idea of reconstructing that high visibility platform elsewhere. Everyone knows it is not simply about technology. Twitter remains "the clown car that fell into a gold mine". He will probe on how far he can go but will promptly retreat (ex: EU).
My guess is that his strategy is to prolong this period of uncertainty. Things like PG's decision may signal a consensus that they need to reconstruct humpty dumpty elsewhere.
Watch for trends in use of twitter as a news source in establishment press. If that significantly declines, the political class will follow.
p.s. It is upsetting to think that one of the immediate beneficiaries of Twitter itself being 'deplatformed from polite society' is the relief it offers regimes like Islamic Republic. They are happy, that much is fairly certain.
> Twitter was/remains? a geopolitical & cultural instrument.
Give it a while.
Give it a while.
I doubt Parler would have sold to him at the time, Owens and Farmer are probably still stoking Ye to make some ludicrous bid on it again.
Musk, on the other hand, needs the audience.
Musk, on the other hand, needs the audience.
It'd be missing the political influence though, those don't have any influence and nobody would be paying any attention to what he does there.
There's this weird thing where a principal might be deluded about their own intentions. It's useful because it allows them to give inaccurate information about their future behavior without 'lying'. If a sincere/passionate person's actions regularly mismatch their words, suspect this.
So, like, Truth Social, only without, well, the main attraction? Hard to see much of a market for that.
I like how people always assume there is some genius underlying plan. All I'm seeing is an egomaniac going on a tantrum with something he didn't even want. What you are describing is what Trump wants with 'Truth Social' who himself wants nothing to do with Twitter.
> You're assuming that Elon isn't doing what he intended to do, turn Twitter into his own personal, right wing echo-chamber with political influence.
He simply unbanned accounts which were wrongfully banned. Accounts which simply communicated legal to hold opinions. There is nothing wrong or morally objectionable about this. I’d rather say it commendable.
If Twitter is becoming a right-wing echo-chamber it’s because left-wing accounts are leaving and nothing else.
So why are they? Are they afraid of having an argument where they can’t have the opposing view banned?
Cmon! You can do better than this.
He simply unbanned accounts which were wrongfully banned. Accounts which simply communicated legal to hold opinions. There is nothing wrong or morally objectionable about this. I’d rather say it commendable.
If Twitter is becoming a right-wing echo-chamber it’s because left-wing accounts are leaving and nothing else.
So why are they? Are they afraid of having an argument where they can’t have the opposing view banned?
Cmon! You can do better than this.
> There is nothing wrong or morally objectionable about this.
Depends on the opinion. "We must kill all the [insert ethnic group]" is a legal-to-hold opinion. But I'd say it's both wrong and morally objectionable to provide a platform for transmitting that opinion. Which is why Twitter banned people like that.
And even for those without a moral sense, I should point out that it was also bad for business. Twitter had a business choice to make: they could keep all the blatant racists or they could keep the non-white audience they targeted plus the white people that don't like open racism. Even if you're a-ok with open bigotry, it's pretty obvious that the right financial choice is to boot most of the open bigots, so that the platform feels safe enough to everybody else.
Depends on the opinion. "We must kill all the [insert ethnic group]" is a legal-to-hold opinion. But I'd say it's both wrong and morally objectionable to provide a platform for transmitting that opinion. Which is why Twitter banned people like that.
And even for those without a moral sense, I should point out that it was also bad for business. Twitter had a business choice to make: they could keep all the blatant racists or they could keep the non-white audience they targeted plus the white people that don't like open racism. Even if you're a-ok with open bigotry, it's pretty obvious that the right financial choice is to boot most of the open bigots, so that the platform feels safe enough to everybody else.
> "We must kill all the [insert ethnic group]"
To be fair, that has always been allowed to say on Twitter as long as the target is either white, men or both.
The only news is now you’re (equally) allowed to spread that kind of toxic hate towards other groups as well.
Is that a good thing? Possibly not, but at least it is objectively more fair than it used to be.
To be fair, that has always been allowed to say on Twitter as long as the target is either white, men or both.
The only news is now you’re (equally) allowed to spread that kind of toxic hate towards other groups as well.
Is that a good thing? Possibly not, but at least it is objectively more fair than it used to be.
In a large number of cases because they've been banned.
Elon has right-wing reactionary brain worms. In my experience, most people who fall in never get out. I don't have much hope that a billionaire will be an exception to that.
Elon Musk's peers are people like Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping, and Mohammed bin Salman. He's not alienating them.
He's probably wrong but "previous Twitter" was not right either.
It's funny how "Twitter is a private company they can kick who they want from their platform" is suddenly not so popular over the crowd that used to parrot it. Hypocrites from every side, unsurprisingly.
Anyway, I can't believe his grand idea for Twitter was the botched "Twitter Blue", and the next version doesn't seem to make sense either.
It's funny how "Twitter is a private company they can kick who they want from their platform" is suddenly not so popular over the crowd that used to parrot it. Hypocrites from every side, unsurprisingly.
Anyway, I can't believe his grand idea for Twitter was the botched "Twitter Blue", and the next version doesn't seem to make sense either.
Paul is an out of touch reactionary billionaire. when you’ve lost your own, maybe it’s time to acknowledge you don’t know what you’re doing
> Paul is an out of touch reactionary billionaire
My theory is that humans are just not evolved for billionaire levels of wealth disparity. It's not a criticism, it just appears to be a fact.
Honest question: are there any "in touch" billionaires? Maybe Mark Cuban in some ways for example?
My theory is that humans are just not evolved for billionaire levels of wealth disparity. It's not a criticism, it just appears to be a fact.
Honest question: are there any "in touch" billionaires? Maybe Mark Cuban in some ways for example?
Mark Cuban is not the example that I would reach for. He's been an asshole since before Yahoo! threw too much money at him.
I know a few, but they're modest people and that's why I will not name them here, I will name one that is deceased, René Sommer, if you want to know more about him, I wrote about him here:
https://jacquesmattheij.com/in-memoriam-rene-sommer/
I know a few, but they're modest people and that's why I will not name them here, I will name one that is deceased, René Sommer, if you want to know more about him, I wrote about him here:
https://jacquesmattheij.com/in-memoriam-rene-sommer/
Gates or Warren Buffet. Both of them seem pretty grounded for the amount of wealth they possess.
You - urgently - need to read up on Gates then.
Any suggested readings/links? I am merely going by his current public persona and whatever the Gates Foundation is doing.
Ah ok. Well, after he quit MS as day to day leader there was that bit around his divorce, the Epstein link and more sordidness.
Gates didn't really change, he just used his fortune to whitewash his reputation. He's still smart and I would be happy read what he has to say but a nice person he isn't and never was.
Gates didn't really change, he just used his fortune to whitewash his reputation. He's still smart and I would be happy read what he has to say but a nice person he isn't and never was.
You have to start reading about Gates before he spent millions to wash his reputation and adopted a disguise of philanthropist to buy a stairway to heaven. Anything before he left Microsoft, with the corruption scandals, the insults, the patent trolling, and so on.
It's getting harder and harder to find though. I should have saved offline compiled files.
It's getting harder and harder to find though. I should have saved offline compiled files.
I think there’s a legitimate line to draw between “bastard does capitalism” and “philanthropist post capitalism”. Bill Gates could have laundered his reputation just fine without committing to give away the majority of his wealth.
The foundation is not meant to give away Gates money while he is alive.
It's a way to be able to keep investing his money without paying taxes.
It only spends the legal minimal amount for charity, 5% (way less than taxes that would go to build roads, hospitals and schools). The rest is invested in a portfolio that, by the magic of being in a non profit, can make billions without paying any tax.
Since he directs the charity, he can therefore move the capital where he needs it to, including founding Monsanto and weapon makers, which he had to withdraw from after people noticed that it was quite the opposite of the claimed foundation mission.
That's why most billionaires have some kind of charity: they keep all the power of their money, get good PR (which given that the wealth gap makes people grumpy, is a great shield) and they optimize their finance while people defend them.
The PR operations worked well: most people on the internet now believe that Gates is a good person. A statement that would have made anybody smile in the 90'.
It's a way to be able to keep investing his money without paying taxes.
It only spends the legal minimal amount for charity, 5% (way less than taxes that would go to build roads, hospitals and schools). The rest is invested in a portfolio that, by the magic of being in a non profit, can make billions without paying any tax.
Since he directs the charity, he can therefore move the capital where he needs it to, including founding Monsanto and weapon makers, which he had to withdraw from after people noticed that it was quite the opposite of the claimed foundation mission.
That's why most billionaires have some kind of charity: they keep all the power of their money, get good PR (which given that the wealth gap makes people grumpy, is a great shield) and they optimize their finance while people defend them.
The PR operations worked well: most people on the internet now believe that Gates is a good person. A statement that would have made anybody smile in the 90'.
> It only spends the legal minimal amount for charity, 5% (way less than taxes that would go to build roads, hospitals and schools). The rest is invested in a portfolio that, by the magic of being in a non profit, can make billions without paying any tax.
To clarify, 5% of what? Of capital in the non-profit? Of revenue generated by the non-profit? Something else?
To clarify, 5% of what? Of capital in the non-profit? Of revenue generated by the non-profit? Something else?
It's not a short summary, but if you are into podcasts then Behind the Bastards have a two parter on him.
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/part-one-the-ballad-of...
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/part-one-the-ballad-of...
They are just out of touch in different ways. Gates' banana comment became the quintessential example of how out of touch rich people are even though it was ultimately inconsequential.
no one who hoards wealth that could save the lives of thousands is in a healthy mental space
I really wish I could see Twitter's internal dashboards. One thing I have a hard time estimating is, outside of my bubble, how is Twitter doing? Are these things hurting Twitter? Is the controversy helping it?
I can't imagine what would motivate the decision to ban Mastodon links. Were they really losing users to Mastodon? That would be a huge problem, but not one that banning links would solve.
I can't imagine what would motivate the decision to ban Mastodon links. Were they really losing users to Mastodon? That would be a huge problem, but not one that banning links would solve.
Anecdotally the content in my feed seems to be drying up, with less and less fresh new tweets every time I open the app. Either people are posting less, leaving or there's technical issues around serving content.
in the short term controversy and events drive traffic up. world cup going on, holidays and seasonal traffic, elon chaos. all probably makes twitter looks like a success at the moment. it would be to hard to separate out the traffic i think.
Wasn’t the only mastodon account banned the one that was posting links to the doxer account?
No, all links to a variety of Mastodon servers, plus official Mastodon account, plus hashtags mentioning Mastodon... were banned.
No idea if they still are. I don't hang out on Twitter. But sheesh.
No idea if they still are. I don't hang out on Twitter. But sheesh.
It was any server that shared links with the server which hosted that. So mathstodon.xyz, for example, which is where a bunch of math Twitter ran to, and not particularly political, was also hit. Even if you endorse banning links to someone sharing public information, it was an extremely broad brush.
They have lost many of their previous highend brand advertising. I now see almost exclusively advertisting from right wing alt brands like 'black rifle coffee'. One can safely assume that their advertising revenue has taken a huge hit. A few thousand people tossing elon $8 a month isnt going to make up for that.
Great, now we’re fighting who is the dumber billionaire.
We’re doomed.
We’re doomed.
> Paul is an out of touch reactionary billionaire.
Elon Musk is billionaire reactionary distilled into its purest form. I mean the guy is literally spending 100% of his time reacting to things he doesn't personally like.
Elon Musk is billionaire reactionary distilled into its purest form. I mean the guy is literally spending 100% of his time reacting to things he doesn't personally like.
i know the brain poison social media gives us all… it’s wild to see
Yep. Along with Musk and Kanye. Those are cases where the poison has fully penetrated. How many of our elites are less noticeably but still significantly impaired though? It's a frightening thought.
Ehh, I mean Kanye has been on this journey for a long time. Talking about how "George Bush doesnt care about black people" in 2005 and grabbing mics to announce that "Beyonce had the best video of all time" in 2009. I was a fan and apologist of his for sometime after these incidents, but he lost me somewhere around his 2011 album with Jayz.
Well I mean Trump was the scariest.
I find quite amazing that expressing such mild opinion as Paul Graham does can yield reactions so strong and labels so intense as "out of touch reactionary x".
I have at least half of my friends that express weirder, more dangerous opinions that are in total opposite to mine. Is that what internet is all about now? Taking every people we disagree with and dress them as Hitler so we can shit on them? It used to be were I went to actually meet people with different point of views and new things.
On hacker news, I expect people that disagree with Graham to prove him wrong with an argument.
Name calling feels more like being with my mom on facebook.
I have at least half of my friends that express weirder, more dangerous opinions that are in total opposite to mine. Is that what internet is all about now? Taking every people we disagree with and dress them as Hitler so we can shit on them? It used to be were I went to actually meet people with different point of views and new things.
On hacker news, I expect people that disagree with Graham to prove him wrong with an argument.
Name calling feels more like being with my mom on facebook.
You finding his opinions “mild” doesn’t make them so, and half of your friends are probably not billionaires with a lot of power and influence in the tech industry.
If you want to defend Paul then do so, but most of this comment is just hyperbolically complaining about how he is criticized.
If you want to defend Paul then do so, but most of this comment is just hyperbolically complaining about how he is criticized.
Are you confusing Paul Graham with Peter Thiel?
PS: You're posting this on pg's site.
PS: You're posting this on pg's site.
PG used to post here but he left because of the negative comments as I remember. A couple of users got banned as well. Twitter allows you to just post and forget without much blow back except for the weird subtweets where people take you out of context. As such successful tweets tend to overgeneralize to avoid nuance or imply that there is nuance but not discuss it. A lot of YC tweeters do this. The problem is we have to take them at their word.
What would be more interesting would be to discuss specific things as evidence for a more general truth.
For example there is a huge criticism of the social sciences in this website (and in general) but none of it is specific criticism of specific hypotheses. (Yes, yes I know people will argue that there are no hypotheses in the social science literature and it is not testable etc... but that is a weak argument and not always true).
What would be more interesting would be to discuss specific things as evidence for a more general truth.
For example there is a huge criticism of the social sciences in this website (and in general) but none of it is specific criticism of specific hypotheses. (Yes, yes I know people will argue that there are no hypotheses in the social science literature and it is not testable etc... but that is a weak argument and not always true).
In a meritocracy, this would be dang's site.
To all extents and purposes that are relevant it is, or you can treat it as such. I'm not aware of pg overruling dang on anything, though obviously it is property of YC and there are limits to what dang can do when it comes to risking the site (legal risk, for instance).
no i’m not confused, and yes i’m aware where i am
This isn't pg's site, and hasn't been for a long time.
This is his Mastodon account:
https://mas.to/@paulg/with_replies
His first toots remind me of his first tweets:
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/22300310058
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/22307238459
https://mas.to/@paulg/with_replies
His first toots remind me of his first tweets:
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/22300310058
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/22307238459
The most ridiculous problem with Mastodon I think is the fact that even if I visit his profile I can't follow him because we are on two different servers. I have to copy his profile url and paste it in my logged in instance. This then takes me to his profile where I can follow him. That's just too much work!
The mechanism is not friendly or intuitive but:
1. On your own instance ...
2. Paste "@[email protected]" into the search dialogue and click the magnifying glass ...
3. Paul's profile will pop up in the results under "People".
4. Either click on the person icon to follow directly, or ...
5. Click on the avatar / profile name/description to view the profile page itself.
If you do click the "Follow" icon from mas.to (and don't already have an account there), you'll be prompted to do what I've described above.
Keep in mind that the Fediverse is, well, Federated. Someone else's home instance is where their bits and their configuration live. Your instance is where your configuration lives. You subscribe from your instance for that reason.
Some instances block others, in which case the profile won't appear, though odds are low that mas.to is among those yours has blocked.
(I've been on Mastodon since 2016, yes, this was confusing at first. I've since sorted it out.)
1. On your own instance ...
2. Paste "@[email protected]" into the search dialogue and click the magnifying glass ...
3. Paul's profile will pop up in the results under "People".
4. Either click on the person icon to follow directly, or ...
5. Click on the avatar / profile name/description to view the profile page itself.
If you do click the "Follow" icon from mas.to (and don't already have an account there), you'll be prompted to do what I've described above.
Keep in mind that the Fediverse is, well, Federated. Someone else's home instance is where their bits and their configuration live. Your instance is where your configuration lives. You subscribe from your instance for that reason.
Some instances block others, in which case the profile won't appear, though odds are low that mas.to is among those yours has blocked.
(I've been on Mastodon since 2016, yes, this was confusing at first. I've since sorted it out.)
There's a few browser extensions that help with that. I just started using this one, it's pretty slick: https://github.com/Lartsch/FediAct
The underlying problem is that browsers are not designed with this sort of federated application use case in mind, so Mastodon and friends have to do some awkward tricks to get it to work at all.
The underlying problem is that browsers are not designed with this sort of federated application use case in mind, so Mastodon and friends have to do some awkward tricks to get it to work at all.
Wow, why the hell would any normie use this?
Having to install a browser extension makes it a hard no for many, the most annoying thing for me is there's no app like Tweetbot for Mastodon that's even like 5% as useful.
I know many people used Twitter.com or their official app, but many people find a simpler native app experience much more useful.
I know many people used Twitter.com or their official app, but many people find a simpler native app experience much more useful.
The Tweetbot developers are making a Tweetbot for Mastodon https://tapbots.social/@ivory
That's why you see Mastodon customer support here and on Mastodon itself by the techies here just for choosing an instance and even explaining why it is all slower than Twitter. For example: [0]
Normal people do not care enough to go on a safari hunt for finding instances, user names of those claiming to have left Twitter or deleting their accounts or even bothering self-hosting just for a username on their own instance.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34042216
Normal people do not care enough to go on a safari hunt for finding instances, user names of those claiming to have left Twitter or deleting their accounts or even bothering self-hosting just for a username on their own instance.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34042216
To make the user experience more like what they're used to from Twitter.
It's frustrating that the web platform doesn't accommodate federated services like Mastodon that span multiple servers very well, but those are the cards we're dealt. It does work, it's just not ideal.
It's frustrating that the web platform doesn't accommodate federated services like Mastodon that span multiple servers very well, but those are the cards we're dealt. It does work, it's just not ideal.
> I have to copy his profile url and paste it in my logged in instance.
It used to be different; in older versions of Mastodon, when you clicked on the Follow link on another instance, it asked for the name of your home instance, and redirected to a pre-filled follow screen on it. This was probably changed because it's an obvious phishing risk: it could redirect you to a fake domain which asked for your Mastodon account credentials (as if your login had expired), so it's not good to get people used to that kind of mechanic.
It used to be different; in older versions of Mastodon, when you clicked on the Follow link on another instance, it asked for the name of your home instance, and redirected to a pre-filled follow screen on it. This was probably changed because it's an obvious phishing risk: it could redirect you to a fake domain which asked for your Mastodon account credentials (as if your login had expired), so it's not good to get people used to that kind of mechanic.
I hope this will be made easier in the near future. In the meantime, you can use this browser extension: https://github.com/lartsch/FediAct#installation
It's a valid criticism. There's many browser extensions that "fix" this.
Many servers have a link that let's you sign in when you click the follow button. it's a bit janker than ideal.
[deleted]
First time I’m using Mastodon, and it’s incredibly slow. Is the app any faster than the web app?
Which instance are you on? Mastodon is decentralized, there may be servers that are overloaded whereas other are fast. Like email.
I haven't noticed any big differences in speed, i use both Mastodon for iOS and Pinafore (https://pinafore.social/ ), a PWA. Just add it to your homescreen and it will behave like a native app (and sometime in 2023 Apple has said they will add push notifications to PWAs).
I haven't noticed any big differences in speed, i use both Mastodon for iOS and Pinafore (https://pinafore.social/ ), a PWA. Just add it to your homescreen and it will behave like a native app (and sometime in 2023 Apple has said they will add push notifications to PWAs).
It's not one app, it's many servers, individually hosted. The one paulg chose appears to be slower than, say, the one I'm using:
https://mas.to/@paulg
https://mastodon.social/@terretta
https://mas.to/@paulg
https://mastodon.social/@terretta
This. I'm on the fosstodon.org server and it seems to be holding up pretty well. That's one reason I chose it: the people running it know what they're doing.
There’s another exodus of twitter users, and most servers are run by individuals, give them time or run your own instance and federate
> There’s another exodus of twitter users, and most servers are run by individuals
Again, Expecting non-techies to self-host their own instances after several of them falling over due to light usage and signups is quite wishful thinking and reiterates the need for users to heavily rely on more centralized instances to on board users.
Well all know what happened to mastodon.technology which was run by an individual. It doesn't look smart to sit on an instance that can barely handle hundreds of thousands of users signing up at once and ends up folding up.
> give them time or run your own instance and federate
Yeah, the journalists at journa.host has never been more alive for journalists and is going just great with a much better reach than Twitter [1] /s.
[0] https://ashfurrow.com/blog/mastodon-technology-shutdown/
[1] https://twitter.com/ajaromano/status/1594432548222152705
Again, Expecting non-techies to self-host their own instances after several of them falling over due to light usage and signups is quite wishful thinking and reiterates the need for users to heavily rely on more centralized instances to on board users.
Well all know what happened to mastodon.technology which was run by an individual. It doesn't look smart to sit on an instance that can barely handle hundreds of thousands of users signing up at once and ends up folding up.
> give them time or run your own instance and federate
Yeah, the journalists at journa.host has never been more alive for journalists and is going just great with a much better reach than Twitter [1] /s.
[0] https://ashfurrow.com/blog/mastodon-technology-shutdown/
[1] https://twitter.com/ajaromano/status/1594432548222152705
Decentrialized network doesn't mean every node is equal in size. Natural user behaviour will still aggregate onto a few larger servers. That's completely normal.
Mastodon wasn't meant to be a 100% replica of Twitter nor has it ever attempted to be. The only reason it's getting such a rapid influx of users is because of Elon's sabotage.
Mastodon wasn't meant to be a 100% replica of Twitter nor has it ever attempted to be. The only reason it's getting such a rapid influx of users is because of Elon's sabotage.
There are many Mastodon providers, just like there are many email providers.
How fast it is depends on the provider you use.
How fast it is depends on the provider you use.
For some reason the link here points to the slowest Mastodon instance in the world. From the one I use (indieweb) it's quite fast:
https://indieweb.social/@[email protected]
https://indieweb.social/@[email protected]
That redirects to mast.to for me?
Mastodon servers are self-hosted by various groups or individuals so they aren't designed to be as scalable as Twitter. Today's events caused a large influx to pretty much every prominent server. A few ones I follow have announced they are either going down for maintenance or upgrading their servers already.
Mastodon is getting slammed by the twitter exodus, this is the first time it's being truly tested.
Depends on the instance. I have signed up in hachyderm.io and its okay
It's usually pretty fast for me, but I am also experiencing quite a bit of lag at the moment.
Gave up after 20 seconds waiting for the website to load. Is that supposed to be some retro 90s experience?
Says the one using HNews which looks like it's from the 90's lol
HN is minimalism with less than 65kB resources to download. This is a deliberate decision, it works very well and it is usually very fast (not right now though).
Mastodon on the other hand downloads 2.6MB resources to display what exactly? Some tiny images, three posts and an ad. That does not look like a winner.
Mastodon on the other hand downloads 2.6MB resources to display what exactly? Some tiny images, three posts and an ad. That does not look like a winner.
You can use any ActivityPub frontend you want to see the same content, it can be very light Pleroma for example.
HN loads faster than any website on the internet though.
They aren't called toots anymore.
Hug of death?
You can try another server! https://toot.community/@[email protected]
That's advantage of federation!
That's advantage of federation!
Paul is now suspended on Twitter: https://twitter.com/paulg
Wow, incredible. You can't make this stuff up.
They're literally banning mentioning your Mastodon handle.
Unbelievable. Like Paul, I will not be adhering to this absurd new rule. If they ban me for that, then I guess that's that.
Unbelievable. Like Paul, I will not be adhering to this absurd new rule. If they ban me for that, then I guess that's that.
Wow, Twitter is collapsing much faster than I expected. With PG and some other high-profile accounts gone, many will loose interest in their Twitter feed fast. Rinse and repeat.
I thought it'd collapse on the tech side before the policy side. Rather shocked the mask has come off this quickly on what "free speech" actually meant.
While I sort of expected the same... I think our HN crowd (myself included) is biased to assume the importance of technology more than the importance of the social dimension. But also, I think Musk put a heavy hand on the tiller far faster than I expected he would (the wise thing to do would have been to assume there was much to learn; he seems to have stomped into his new company with a belief he knows what's best, and that's not meshing well with what was already there).
But we should remember our own tech-first biases. Twitter ran in frequent-fail-whale mode for months with users accepting that because it fed their social needs. The moment it stopped serving those needs, people started leaving no matter how good the tech is.
But we should remember our own tech-first biases. Twitter ran in frequent-fail-whale mode for months with users accepting that because it fed their social needs. The moment it stopped serving those needs, people started leaving no matter how good the tech is.
Large distributed systems that have already been built can often limp along for a very long time before falling over. I would give Twitter at least another 3-6 months for stuff to start breaking.
Yep. Distributed systems, like any complex systems, follow "slowly at first, then all at once."
Agreed entirely, but I thought the "free speech" stuff would last longer than that 3-6 months, if for no other reason than to avoid the embarassment of it.
On what level do you mean? 2fa already broke at one point (no clue if they fixed it I don't use two-factor as my twitter account is not terribly important)
You'll know the level when it happens - I am referring to multi-day outages. 2fa being broken doesn't surprise me at all. I bet the didn't want to pay the bill.
To be clear, it could take years.
To be clear, it could take years.
Oh yeah the full "can't access the site" could be a long way off. Could also be tomorrow if the wrong thing starts breaking and no one left understands how to maintain it.
It's a testament to the work created by their amazing infra team (now mostly gone) to have the platform on autopilot for so long.
No offense, but pg doesn't really post all that much stuff that would make me reconsider Twitter as a platform if he left. And, to be fair, neither does anyone else. Twitter is a marketing platform not a social network.
I use it primarily as a RSS feed and the occasional "get up to speed with the latest news fast" alternative.
I use it primarily as a RSS feed and the occasional "get up to speed with the latest news fast" alternative.
Except for the fact it isn't really collapsing. A couple people throwing a fit and saying they are leaving doesn't change the majority.
It's news to me that that users are not allowed to mention other social networks' accounts on Twitter anymore. Seems short sighted, how many users is Twitter losing to Instagram/Discord/Mastodon?
The policy change was on the frontpage of HN just a couple of hours ago, but you can imagine how comments went and why it's no longer there.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34040165 is on the front page at #19 right now.
There were a couple of other duplicate discussions, but that's the main one.
There were a couple of other duplicate discussions, but that's the main one.
Self censoring?
Or cease and desist?
HN relatively deweights posts that get a lot of argument without a lot of insight. Things about politics, or tech involved culture war, or continuous divisive news stories disappear from the front page quickly.
I would classify that as ‘generic moderation policy’ rather than censorship
I would classify that as ‘generic moderation policy’ rather than censorship
It's a brand new policy, and it was enforced before it was even declared. I just deleted my Twitter account after 14 years. It's over.
There's an exception: TikTok
Fortuitously preserving LibsOfTikTok and Elon's good relationship with the CCP
Fortuitously preserving LibsOfTikTok and Elon's good relationship with the CCP
I'm fully willing to pile on, but I don't know that it's an example of a policy violation. It's linking to things people are doing on TikTok, not promoting a specific account or TikTok itself.
The policy doesn't mention individual accounts but the platform itself:
>we will remove any free promotion of prohibited 3rd-party social media platforms
>Accounts that are used for the main purpose of promoting content on another social platform may be suspended
>we will remove any free promotion of prohibited 3rd-party social media platforms
>Accounts that are used for the main purpose of promoting content on another social platform may be suspended
Here is the HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34040165
It's not short-sighted, Twitter is simply championing free speech.
Free speech is defined as the intersection between anything-thats-legal and anything-that-doesn't-upset-its-owner.
Free speech is defined as the intersection between anything-thats-legal and anything-that-doesn't-upset-its-owner.
Are you deliberately trolling?
No, I'm just connecting the data points between what Musk says, and what he does. Mostly between what he does, actually.
If you think that this is a farce, that's because we are living in one. I suppose it is possible that he is trolling us with his moderation policies...
It's true that this generates relatively low-quality commentary, but it's not clear to me how a discussion of the behaviour of a man who says one thing, and does another can do otherwise.
If you think that this is a farce, that's because we are living in one. I suppose it is possible that he is trolling us with his moderation policies...
It's true that this generates relatively low-quality commentary, but it's not clear to me how a discussion of the behaviour of a man who says one thing, and does another can do otherwise.
Interestingly though, the accounts for Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram are still on Twitter, but the one for Mastodon isn't. I wonder why...
>It's news to me that that users are not allowed to mention other social networks' accounts on Twitter anymore.
Isn't that a mischaracterization though? The new policy they announced, as far as I've seen, only applies if the account is "solely" promoting other brands. [0]
> Specifically, we will remove accounts created solely for the purpose of promoting other social platforms and content that contains links or usernames for the following platforms: Facebook, Instagram, Mastodon, Truth Social, Tribel, Nostr and Post.
[0]: https://twitter.com/TwitterSupport/status/160453126541959168...
EDIT:
The tweet linked seems to be the mischaracterization and not this take.
Reading the full policy[1] does say that, while their tweets don't.
[1]: https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/social-platfo...
Isn't that a mischaracterization though? The new policy they announced, as far as I've seen, only applies if the account is "solely" promoting other brands. [0]
> Specifically, we will remove accounts created solely for the purpose of promoting other social platforms and content that contains links or usernames for the following platforms: Facebook, Instagram, Mastodon, Truth Social, Tribel, Nostr and Post.
[0]: https://twitter.com/TwitterSupport/status/160453126541959168...
EDIT:
The tweet linked seems to be the mischaracterization and not this take.
Reading the full policy[1] does say that, while their tweets don't.
[1]: https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/social-platfo...
That may be the written policy, but there were widespread reports of mastodon ('s largest sites) being considered too harmful a link to be put in a twitter bio. https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/15/23512113/twitter-blockin...
I don't see PG reacting to that news on twitter. Is there a reaction anywhere?
I don't see PG reacting to that news on twitter. Is there a reaction anywhere?
> That may be the written policy, but there were widespread reports of mastodon ('s largest sites) being considered too harmful a link to be put in a twitter bio. https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/15/23512113/twitter-blockin...
I saw that and assumed (maybe wrongly) that it was an automated ban from some internal automod-like system running amuck and due to the layoffs/quits/staff issues no body at Twitter knowing how to disable it.
Guess the jury is still out, but does anybody know if that same error is showing up for facebook links for example? If so it's a smoking gun.
I saw that and assumed (maybe wrongly) that it was an automated ban from some internal automod-like system running amuck and due to the layoffs/quits/staff issues no body at Twitter knowing how to disable it.
Guess the jury is still out, but does anybody know if that same error is showing up for facebook links for example? If so it's a smoking gun.
I just tested a few mins ago and I wasn't able to tweet a link to a post on hachyderm (not even just my profile) because it was "harmful".
"At both the Tweet level and the account level, we will remove any free promotion of prohibited 3rd-party social media platforms"
Did they delete the policy already? I can't open either link.
jeffbee(1)
Can't say about pg, but I left Twitter (I'm a regular, non-blue user) because the ads lately got out of control. Every other post is a promoted ad from a totally unrelated category, which I can't relate to. Ads targeting either stopped working, or Twitter allowed large numbers of low quality advertisers to push their ads.
I turned my ad-blocker off a while ago, out of curiosity, and my ads have been a mix of (mostly) no ads at all or (occasionally) a bunch of ads at once for really strange things. One time I got six ads in a row for locations in China. Not tourist spots, mind, but stuff like a dig site in a Chinese city. Another time I got amateurish Christian evangelism and a guy promoting a article in Nature about cats recognizing their names. I'm not even sure why the second guy was promoting that article, as they were neither a co-author nor affiliated. Very rarely do I get ads that are even remotely related to the kind of accounts I follow on Twitter.
I experienced a similar phenomenon. I have 2 accounts, the latter following very few people. So it’s showing almost exclusively ads and promoted tweets since there is nothing else to show.
> Twitter will no longer allow free promotion of specific social media platforms
I can foresee that Twitter Orange will be launched next week, which for 8$/month allows you to link to other social media platforms.
On a more serious tone, does anyone know if this is legal in the EU, given the recent Digital Services Act?
I can foresee that Twitter Orange will be launched next week, which for 8$/month allows you to link to other social media platforms.
On a more serious tone, does anyone know if this is legal in the EU, given the recent Digital Services Act?
It's absolutely not compatible with Digital Services Act: https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/priorities-...
> Example of the “don'ts” - Gatekeeper platforms may no longer:
> treat services and products offered by the gatekeeper itself more favourably in ranking than similar services or products offered by third parties on the gatekeeper's platform
> prevent consumers from linking up to businesses outside their platforms
> Example of the “don'ts” - Gatekeeper platforms may no longer:
> treat services and products offered by the gatekeeper itself more favourably in ranking than similar services or products offered by third parties on the gatekeeper's platform
> prevent consumers from linking up to businesses outside their platforms
This should cause a significant degree of cognitive dissonance for quite a lot of Hacker News users. fascinating to see two members of the billionaire tech class disagree publicly like this.
only if people haven't been paying attention to the absolute shitshow that musk was doing with twitter. elon is not a smart man even if he cosplays one.
I mean my reaction is: ok I don’t care about this billionaire spat
As an HN user who is mostly interested in open source projects of various sorts, I don't really care that much about 'billionaire tech class' conflicts. I do appreciate Elon Musk's successful effort with electric vehicles and reusable rockets, though I expect others to eventually catch up, as is normal with tech innovation (VW electric vehicles are looking good).
As far as social media, if it all goes away I wouldn't be that concerned. Net neutrality and access to basic Internet services for all is a much more important issue, IMO. Blocking servers from the Internet (unless they're actually hosting criminal content and taken down by legal prosecution) would be the more serious free speech violation.
As far as social media, if it all goes away I wouldn't be that concerned. Net neutrality and access to basic Internet services for all is a much more important issue, IMO. Blocking servers from the Internet (unless they're actually hosting criminal content and taken down by legal prosecution) would be the more serious free speech violation.
[deleted]
I have seen 0 people who support Elon in this.
This website is heavily left leaning, like most of the internet these days.
..like most of the world, really. I'm not sure where some people got the impression that people are anywhere close to being 50/50 between left vs right.
Not the world, just the West.
Elections?
what do you consider a centrist website?
(I am centre-right by my country's standards, yet my perception of HN is that it leans even more right)
(I am centre-right by my country's standards, yet my perception of HN is that it leans even more right)
Do you live under a rock? This place has always been libertarian, and since Trump has turned into an echo chamber of alt-right grievances in tech. The initial burst of cheering from this forum over Elon initially buying twitter to "destroy wokeness" was deafening.
My recent impression of pg is that he is raising his family and is wealthy beyond measure. He doesn't need to influence anyone, and aside from his small quips on startups, seems to be checked out. He's not irrelevant but not being on twitter has zero impact on his life, because he doesnt need a mouth piece anymore
Most people are on there for a sense of validation. And I imagine 1 million followers is pretty validating.
There are a lot of things that happened where I could see both sides of the debate. As usual, a lot of outrage on Tweeter was more about the reflex of it than something really meaningful, the Tweeter files were underwhelming and I didn't find anything in the new Twitter that I thought was completely bonkers.
But this ban on link is, indeed, in my book, a bad move. And it will also make me reevaluate the past Tweeter drama in the light of this decision.
I always was of the opinion that eventually things would settle down and Twitter would go on its merry way.
But I'm not so sure anymore. I don't think I'll leave right now, but I'm not giving the benefit of the doubt to any of this anymore.
But this ban on link is, indeed, in my book, a bad move. And it will also make me reevaluate the past Tweeter drama in the light of this decision.
I always was of the opinion that eventually things would settle down and Twitter would go on its merry way.
But I'm not so sure anymore. I don't think I'll leave right now, but I'm not giving the benefit of the doubt to any of this anymore.
Twitter - the global town square, but you dare not mention the address of that little park down the road, because Elon’s feelings might get hurt.
Direct Fediverse link: https://mas.to/@paulg
Seem crazy to leave Twitter to me.
Elon's takeover of Twitter is one of the most significant periods in Internet history.
It's a great show.
It's an education in how not to do things.
It's a thrill ride.
You get a front row seat for the show if you're on the platform.
I would have thought Paul Graham would want to be there because of all this.
Elon's takeover of Twitter is one of the most significant periods in Internet history.
It's a great show.
It's an education in how not to do things.
It's a thrill ride.
You get a front row seat for the show if you're on the platform.
I would have thought Paul Graham would want to be there because of all this.
Just because he won't post on Twitter doesn't mean he won't go on Twitter at all.
That's not leaving.
How does one find a good Mastodon server? On his website it says "Follow me at @[email protected]" -- does that mean that he is on mas.to? What if I want to follow him but also someone on another server? Or do I not understand how it works?
> How does one find a good Mastodon server?
Hm, what makes a good server? I think for me, I want: not going to disappear, high uptime, low latency, moderate moderation.
You can measure moderation by going to most server's /about page, to see which servers they've limited interactions with.
I'm on hachyderm.io. It's good, but could be better. I expect it will remain at least at this baseline level of quality, so I'm too lazy to search out other options.
My wife is on wandering.shop. I'd say it struggles much more with latency/availability, but is still fine, especially if you use an app, which can paper over some of the latency issues.
Hm, what makes a good server? I think for me, I want: not going to disappear, high uptime, low latency, moderate moderation.
You can measure moderation by going to most server's /about page, to see which servers they've limited interactions with.
I'm on hachyderm.io. It's good, but could be better. I expect it will remain at least at this baseline level of quality, so I'm too lazy to search out other options.
My wife is on wandering.shop. I'd say it struggles much more with latency/availability, but is still fine, especially if you use an app, which can paper over some of the latency issues.
Yes, this is the thing. Mastodon has a bit of a discovery issue that other social network options don't have (it's akin to asking "What's a good email provider?").
I haven't tried it myself, but this purports to suggest a server based on some info about you (https://instances.social/). And (https://joinmastodon.org/servers) is kind of the "main" list.
I haven't tried it myself, but this purports to suggest a server based on some info about you (https://instances.social/). And (https://joinmastodon.org/servers) is kind of the "main" list.
Yeah, it's pretty frustrating.
I initially tried the https://joinmastodon.org/servers thing in November, but the things proposed seemed like very niche communities.
I just tried the https://instances.social/ link -- the top 2 hits for me were very small instances (fewer than 5 people), which I wouldn't have much faith in joining.
Actually, I guess I should have mentioned how I _actually_ chose a server. I used https://fedifinder.glitch.me/ and joined the first fast-enough server that most of my existing contacts were on.
I initially tried the https://joinmastodon.org/servers thing in November, but the things proposed seemed like very niche communities.
I just tried the https://instances.social/ link -- the top 2 hits for me were very small instances (fewer than 5 people), which I wouldn't have much faith in joining.
Actually, I guess I should have mentioned how I _actually_ chose a server. I used https://fedifinder.glitch.me/ and joined the first fast-enough server that most of my existing contacts were on.
Disclaimer: Novice, who also signed up. I've barely looked into anything, this info is just my experience.
So it's mostly like email. Logic that would work for email i think works for Mastodon. Just like with email you can generally email anyone and anyone emails you, the same applies to mastodon in my experience. However, if a server is being too <insert reason here> for your server's admins, they may block the entire thing. I don't know the finer details of how blocking can take place, but my loose belief is that you won't see posts from blocked servers. Though i may still be possible to explicitly follow someone on a blocked server.. i'm unclear there.
This amount of moderation will obviously vary from server to server. It is one of the criteria you'd look at for choosing a server.
Likewise local community is another, if you should care. There is a special Local feed, which i've found to be quite handy if the server you're on is specialized to a content type.
As for choosing your server, i think the above two points are useful metrics to help you decide. However if you're just looking to dip your toes in, pick any server. You can always decide to switch later, as you can set your old account to indicate that you moved to a different account. I've seen several accounts like this and it seems to be sane and easy.
So far i've been quite happy with Mastodon.
So it's mostly like email. Logic that would work for email i think works for Mastodon. Just like with email you can generally email anyone and anyone emails you, the same applies to mastodon in my experience. However, if a server is being too <insert reason here> for your server's admins, they may block the entire thing. I don't know the finer details of how blocking can take place, but my loose belief is that you won't see posts from blocked servers. Though i may still be possible to explicitly follow someone on a blocked server.. i'm unclear there.
This amount of moderation will obviously vary from server to server. It is one of the criteria you'd look at for choosing a server.
Likewise local community is another, if you should care. There is a special Local feed, which i've found to be quite handy if the server you're on is specialized to a content type.
As for choosing your server, i think the above two points are useful metrics to help you decide. However if you're just looking to dip your toes in, pick any server. You can always decide to switch later, as you can set your old account to indicate that you moved to a different account. I've seen several accounts like this and it seems to be sane and easy.
So far i've been quite happy with Mastodon.
> You can always decide to switch later, as you can set your old account to indicate that you moved to a different account.
A small cool detail you didn't add: when you do that, anyone who was following you will automatically and seamlessly follow the new account.
A small cool detail you didn't add: when you do that, anyone who was following you will automatically and seamlessly follow the new account.
Lots of incomplete answers - you can maybe probably follow anyone you want from any decent server. But servers block each other for a number of reasons, so for good or bad you probably want to just pick one, see if it works, and if there are people you can't reach you'll need to find another. It's possible to migrate to a different server in a relatively seamless way. From what I can tell choosibg a server is based a lot on word of mouth. Which I assume is difficult if the site you're using explicitly forbids discussion of Mastodon.
You can join any mastodon server and follow someone from any other server.
You can follow on any server. For example, I'm on indieweb.social but follow folks in all kinds of instances: ruby.social, fostodon.org, emacs.ch, aus.social, mstdn.jp...
ps. You can also follow hashtags if interested in a specific topic.
ps. You can also follow hashtags if interested in a specific topic.
> ps. You can also follow hashtags if interested in a specific topic.
AFAIK, only if your server is on Mastodon 4.0.0 or newer, as Mastodon 3.x didn't have that feature yet.
AFAIK, only if your server is on Mastodon 4.0.0 or newer, as Mastodon 3.x didn't have that feature yet.
Yes, he's on mas.to, but you can follow him from an account elsewhere.
By going to the following link and creating a handle, you'll come across a lot options of severs. https://joinmastodon.org/
Say you create the following named handle kd at server mas.to. If someone else would want to follow you, you'd just give that @[email protected]. Note that when you join a server, you'll have to abide by their rules.
Say you create the following named handle kd at server mas.to. If someone else would want to follow you, you'd just give that @[email protected]. Note that when you join a server, you'll have to abide by their rules.
I'd suggest not being afraid to have two accounts -- join one that's more niche where the local instance community might be interesting and join one of the main/large ones.
It's easy enough to sync up follows.
Some small ones block the large ones (for their moderation policies), so having the small account will let you follow anyone, and the large can be a hedge if the smaller one becomes unstable
It's easy enough to sync up follows.
Some small ones block the large ones (for their moderation policies), so having the small account will let you follow anyone, and the large can be a hedge if the smaller one becomes unstable
Seems relevant https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1604069050220519424
Worth pointing to but in this case it's not a disagreement over X, it's Elon breaking the law.
This guy is full of himself an d you guys know this. Stop adoring him.
Regarding behavior of Twitter's current leadership, the personality of recent years...
When people who seem intelligent and sensible achieve success, and then start to have a kind of jerk-y metamorphosis, I wonder whether it's not just that their voice is amplified or no longer suppressed, nor that "power corrupts", but... whether and how much drugs are involved.
Imagine a stereotypical young Wall Street bro of decades past, who starts doing cocaine. If their personality changes, I might wonder how much it was the money, and how much it was the echo chamber in their new social scene, but one really can't ignore the coke (where at least temporary personality change is basically on the label as an effect).
With some people, I also wonder about the awful effects of sleep deprivation. But usually first about drugs.
When people who seem intelligent and sensible achieve success, and then start to have a kind of jerk-y metamorphosis, I wonder whether it's not just that their voice is amplified or no longer suppressed, nor that "power corrupts", but... whether and how much drugs are involved.
Imagine a stereotypical young Wall Street bro of decades past, who starts doing cocaine. If their personality changes, I might wonder how much it was the money, and how much it was the echo chamber in their new social scene, but one really can't ignore the coke (where at least temporary personality change is basically on the label as an effect).
With some people, I also wonder about the awful effects of sleep deprivation. But usually first about drugs.
For anyone who didn't see this tweet before it got pg suspended:
> This is the last straw. I give up. You can find a link to my new Mastodon profile on my site.
> This is the last straw. I give up. You can find a link to my new Mastodon profile on my site.
Do people on HN still believe Elon isn't destroying Twitter?
I'll take the hit here.
I thought electric vehicles were a really dumb idea. Too many problems to be solved for. Range. Charging. Depreciation. Getting people to switch. All of the other infrastructure. Now it's what everyone does, and Tesla is (last I checked) one of the very few EV makers that is able to make a profit on EVs, while upstarts in the space (including Ford) are losing money on every EV sale.
I thought self-landing rockets was a dumb idea.
I thought Starlink was a dumb idea.
I think a lot of what Elon is doing now is a very dumb idea, but as a Twitter user with friends across the political spectrum, I have seen what has appeared to be a suppression of speech that largely affected my right leaning friends, while my left leaning friends gloated about it. I've watched journalists like Taylor Lorenz break the rules with impunity while journalists on the right were deplatformed for doing less.
This is clearly a departure, and I would argue that many right leaning friends were hoping that Elon would stop the pendulum swing, I don't think any were expecting the pendulum to swing back the other way so hard. Elon's actions have seemed arbitrary, but a) Every change looks bad when you don't know their motivations, and b) I've been wrong about Elon's entire life to this point.
It's possible that he's done surveys or polls or gotten data indicating that fear of doxxing is a thing that is meaningfully suppressing Twitter engagement. It is possible that he knows what he's doing, but it isn't what he's said he's doing and it definitely isn't what we expected him to be doing.
I don't know the answer to those questions, and so I don't know if he's ruining Twitter or just transforming it into something that it hasn't been, and I'm mindful of the fact that practically every single change that Twitter has ever made has been received as "the end of Twitter," from verified accounts, to changing their API ToS, to blocking apps, to suing users with any vague reference to 'tweet' in their apps, to bookmarks, analytics, 280 characters, etc., etc.
I thought electric vehicles were a really dumb idea. Too many problems to be solved for. Range. Charging. Depreciation. Getting people to switch. All of the other infrastructure. Now it's what everyone does, and Tesla is (last I checked) one of the very few EV makers that is able to make a profit on EVs, while upstarts in the space (including Ford) are losing money on every EV sale.
I thought self-landing rockets was a dumb idea.
I thought Starlink was a dumb idea.
I think a lot of what Elon is doing now is a very dumb idea, but as a Twitter user with friends across the political spectrum, I have seen what has appeared to be a suppression of speech that largely affected my right leaning friends, while my left leaning friends gloated about it. I've watched journalists like Taylor Lorenz break the rules with impunity while journalists on the right were deplatformed for doing less.
This is clearly a departure, and I would argue that many right leaning friends were hoping that Elon would stop the pendulum swing, I don't think any were expecting the pendulum to swing back the other way so hard. Elon's actions have seemed arbitrary, but a) Every change looks bad when you don't know their motivations, and b) I've been wrong about Elon's entire life to this point.
It's possible that he's done surveys or polls or gotten data indicating that fear of doxxing is a thing that is meaningfully suppressing Twitter engagement. It is possible that he knows what he's doing, but it isn't what he's said he's doing and it definitely isn't what we expected him to be doing.
I don't know the answer to those questions, and so I don't know if he's ruining Twitter or just transforming it into something that it hasn't been, and I'm mindful of the fact that practically every single change that Twitter has ever made has been received as "the end of Twitter," from verified accounts, to changing their API ToS, to blocking apps, to suing users with any vague reference to 'tweet' in their apps, to bookmarks, analytics, 280 characters, etc., etc.
Agreed, well said.
Elon's had a busy productive life, and my take on my University friends who've had busy productive lives is that they now have the self-insight of a baked potato, roughly. No doubt because they haven't had spare time to reflect on their actions or motivations. But that doesn't mean they can't self-correct, it just means they usually have to run into a brick wall or two before they do. I'm guessing he'll correct this latest boner.
Elon's had a busy productive life, and my take on my University friends who've had busy productive lives is that they now have the self-insight of a baked potato, roughly. No doubt because they haven't had spare time to reflect on their actions or motivations. But that doesn't mean they can't self-correct, it just means they usually have to run into a brick wall or two before they do. I'm guessing he'll correct this latest boner.
I'm still highly critical of what Musk is doing (again, without knowing the 'why') but something that seems important and is going unnoticed is that while the previous administration's actions were just as arbitrary and capricious, they almost always related to events that were popular topics of discussion like recent elections, a global pandemic, and other things that are naturally topics of discussion.
I think the current rules are likely just as dumb, but the number of people likely to be suspended for doxxing Elon or posting about Mastodon is undoubtedly a MUCH smaller segment of the population.
It's amusing watching the reactions to it. I've run enough communities in the past to appreciate how many times you have to make decisions that go against your personal ethics for the sake of the community. Everyone draws different lines on the sand on what they consider "free" speech, and anything closely resembling what is protected in America will likely get you into trouble internationally. Elon is finding out that it's hard, and while it may seem like he's setting his lines in untenable spots, it seems just as possible to me that we're all wrong and he isn't.
I think the current rules are likely just as dumb, but the number of people likely to be suspended for doxxing Elon or posting about Mastodon is undoubtedly a MUCH smaller segment of the population.
It's amusing watching the reactions to it. I've run enough communities in the past to appreciate how many times you have to make decisions that go against your personal ethics for the sake of the community. Everyone draws different lines on the sand on what they consider "free" speech, and anything closely resembling what is protected in America will likely get you into trouble internationally. Elon is finding out that it's hard, and while it may seem like he's setting his lines in untenable spots, it seems just as possible to me that we're all wrong and he isn't.
You're right, about the previous Twitter administration and how it worked. Take away this (big) pinch and Twitter can be a real improvement on the last version.
I have trouble swallowing this abuse of market power because the courts and govts have allowed so much such abuse for so long. It's a big issue for me (and the EU.) Without that context, I might find it easier to shrug off.
No question, speech and community make for interesting decisions; if he can stay within the law, he'll have a fair bit of leeway from me.
I have trouble swallowing this abuse of market power because the courts and govts have allowed so much such abuse for so long. It's a big issue for me (and the EU.) Without that context, I might find it easier to shrug off.
No question, speech and community make for interesting decisions; if he can stay within the law, he'll have a fair bit of leeway from me.
He's just got his devs to debug the new algorithm live. It's hilarious to see 47882394 people get banned or restricted in some way and every one of them thinks Elon hates them personally.
It's a mess but it's the right idea, a social network cannot be run with either hand curation or self curation. If something destroys Twitter it'll be some place with a better algo.
It's a mess but it's the right idea, a social network cannot be run with either hand curation or self curation. If something destroys Twitter it'll be some place with a better algo.
The bustiest times twitter has ever been have all been after he bought it, if you believe him.
And he's so controversial - even here - that all he has to do is keep fiddling with it and people flock to the circus with popcorn.
What evidence does anyone have that it's being destroyed? What are the metrics for any social media site being destroyed?
Thinking about myspace and digg - it seemed to be loss of user base. Does anyone have metrics independent of Musk/twitter insiders that it's losing users? Seems like https://alexa.com/ is dead...
And he's so controversial - even here - that all he has to do is keep fiddling with it and people flock to the circus with popcorn.
What evidence does anyone have that it's being destroyed? What are the metrics for any social media site being destroyed?
Thinking about myspace and digg - it seemed to be loss of user base. Does anyone have metrics independent of Musk/twitter insiders that it's losing users? Seems like https://alexa.com/ is dead...
Understandable, and I'm hoping we see more and more people make the switch.
Has been hilarious watching this car crash.
Has been hilarious watching this car crash.
Unless there is a massive domino effect, there won't be even a blip on Twitter's MAU dashboard. With all respect to Paul, he only has 1.5M followers, which is not _that_ much. Let's be honest, how many people know Paul Graham outside of the tech industry? Justin Bieber has 113.6M followers. Rihanna has 107M followers. Heck, even Snoop Dogg has 20.8M followers. These are 20-100 times bigger accounts that are not going anywhere (yet).
He has a certain type of followers though, and he is not the only person making this move.
The best thing to come out of all of this is people questioning their continued use of social media. Switching to Mastodon, it being different, not liking it and just dropping it all entirely. It's the BEST outcome. Social media is a fucking cancer on society and it's fantastic to see it being questioned. It's like soda and candy - empty calories that does absolutely nothing for you.
Twitter makes a great news reader. Never read replies. Facebook is cancer.
I agree it does seem folks are reevaluating their social life, lucky that was happening before Elon.
I agree it does seem folks are reevaluating their social life, lucky that was happening before Elon.
A really large use of social media is for corporate interests and "influencers" to cross promote themselves around different social media to increase their reach.
Banning Instagram and Facebook just pissed off a whole new group of people who previously didn't give any fucks about this at all.
It'll get real weird if he decides to be "consistent" and go after YouTube as well.
Banning Instagram and Facebook just pissed off a whole new group of people who previously didn't give any fucks about this at all.
It'll get real weird if he decides to be "consistent" and go after YouTube as well.
I'm glad I jump Twitter's sinking ship last week[1]. There's no way for Twitter to have a good outcome as long as Musk in on charge.
[1] https://notes.ghed.in/posts/2022/leaving-twitter/
[1] https://notes.ghed.in/posts/2022/leaving-twitter/
Is there a HN Mastodon server?
Lots of us are on hachyderm, but there's no official HN one.
Prohibited platforms:
Facebook, Instagram, Mastodon, Truth Social, Tribel, Post and Nostr
So onlyfans is save. We have to change to that …
Facebook, Instagram, Mastodon, Truth Social, Tribel, Post and Nostr
So onlyfans is save. We have to change to that …
3rd party link aggregators are banned too and tons of SFW/NSFW content creators use them in their Twitter bios.
He didn't exactly say he's leaving Twitter. He said he disagrees with the moderation policy and gives a link to his Mastodon account.
That part about this being "the last straw" implies some change of view. Read in a certain way it could be a goodbye.
Kind of ambiguous and non-committal.
That part about this being "the last straw" implies some change of view. Read in a certain way it could be a goodbye.
Kind of ambiguous and non-committal.
What’s the best general server to join? I noticed the one Paul joined isn’t avaible to join anymore?
Honest question. What is probability that Elon will run poll and revert policy change? (My pick 80%)
The trick can only be played so many times before it gets old. Abrupt announcement of policy changes followed by strawpoll repeal is not going to undo 100% of the damage.
What happened to the early idea that the internet views censorship as damage and routes around it? If Musk keeps this up he's might as well buy Gab, Parlor and Truth Social and merge them with Twitter because that's the audience he'll have left.
It's baffling to me that Elon seems to be taking the opposite of a first-principles view on Twitter.
He fails to realize _why_ Twitter uniquely has the reach that it does. It's because it's platform-agnostic in a lot of ways. It's the base-level social protocol that all other platforms are adjacent to.
By removing that connection, it completely nerfs that influence and Twitter becomes just another social network.
I also fail to see how users could think this is reasonable considering Twitter has no way to upload long-form video. So how could YouTube be a competitor?
And the policy doesn't talk about Tiktok whatsoever, which is arguably an actual threat to Twitter, since it replaced Vine.
Overall, something's fishy.
He fails to realize _why_ Twitter uniquely has the reach that it does. It's because it's platform-agnostic in a lot of ways. It's the base-level social protocol that all other platforms are adjacent to.
By removing that connection, it completely nerfs that influence and Twitter becomes just another social network.
I also fail to see how users could think this is reasonable considering Twitter has no way to upload long-form video. So how could YouTube be a competitor?
And the policy doesn't talk about Tiktok whatsoever, which is arguably an actual threat to Twitter, since it replaced Vine.
Overall, something's fishy.
There are a few types of people on twitter.
1. People building their business/brand. They are not going to like this, since the reason they are on Twitter is to build an audience. The idea that you share your handle from Twitter to Facebook .... and vice versa is good for everyone.
2. People who want to speak freely. Well you are telling them they can't offer another way to contact them. What if they are the last refuge for someone under oppression? Twitter is blocked in their country but nostr isn't (it would be hard to block)?
There are probably other groups as well. This move just makes Twitter a bit useless, which is much much worse than controversial for the site's popularity.
1. People building their business/brand. They are not going to like this, since the reason they are on Twitter is to build an audience. The idea that you share your handle from Twitter to Facebook .... and vice versa is good for everyone.
2. People who want to speak freely. Well you are telling them they can't offer another way to contact them. What if they are the last refuge for someone under oppression? Twitter is blocked in their country but nostr isn't (it would be hard to block)?
There are probably other groups as well. This move just makes Twitter a bit useless, which is much much worse than controversial for the site's popularity.
[deleted]
BTW, he's already backtracking and stating he has not "left twitter":
https://indieweb.social/@[email protected]/109536543079310226
"I haven't "left Twitter." I just don't want to keep using it while it's banning links to other sites. Plus given the way things are going, it seemed like a good time to learn more about Mastodon."
Expect Musk to reverse this policy, and all the people who were fine with all the even more terrible things to just hush down and return.
https://indieweb.social/@[email protected]/109536543079310226
"I haven't "left Twitter." I just don't want to keep using it while it's banning links to other sites. Plus given the way things are going, it seemed like a good time to learn more about Mastodon."
Expect Musk to reverse this policy, and all the people who were fine with all the even more terrible things to just hush down and return.
There's nothing to backtrack on. Go re-read the original tweet - he never said he was leaving Twitter. If that was his intention, he probably would've explicitly said so. The OP's post title is based on an incorrect assumption.
Fair enough, it's left ambiguous.
He's applying pressure/lobbying in a passive-aggressive way. Even less principled.
He's applying pressure/lobbying in a passive-aggressive way. Even less principled.
I don't use Twitter much and never followed pg there. I do read his pieces that get posted here. What would someone like me gain from having followed him on Twitter, or following him on some other platform now?
Maybe it is time for Google to fan their Social Network ambitions. They have enough brainpower to get a functional/scalable Mastodon server by Christmas. They may get the traction and later EEE it.
Honestly Circles was a great idea with poor UI/UX. It would be interesting to see a rebrand. However, I have doubts about people wanting to use another Alphabet product considering they seem to kill everything that isn’t a massive success.
Call it Google Social. Get the usernames from Gmail. Contribute to Mastodon like their are doing on Chromium or do a fork. Get the same policy and terms from YouTube. What can be that hard?
[deleted]
>You’ll be back
>It's not impossible. Elon is a smart guy. He doesn't currently understand how different social media is from cars and rockets, but he could well figure it out before it's too late.
>It's not impossible. Elon is a smart guy. He doesn't currently understand how different social media is from cars and rockets, but he could well figure it out before it's too late.
Nice to see. The last week of dingdongery was my final straw too.
I have for years posted to Twitter via LinkedIn. Presumably this is some kind of official relationship between the platforms or a sanctioned use of Twitters API.
I wonder what risk my Twitter account would have for closure? LinkenIn originated posts refer to LinkedIn if the post exceeds Twitters character limits.
(In case you’re wondering I do this to keep my Twitter active but avoid having to actually login and see Twitter :) )
I wonder what risk my Twitter account would have for closure? LinkenIn originated posts refer to LinkedIn if the post exceeds Twitters character limits.
(In case you’re wondering I do this to keep my Twitter active but avoid having to actually login and see Twitter :) )
This twitter policy change is the greatest thing that could have happened for Mastodon. They couldn't buy better advertisement than this.
It’s pretty common for platforms to combat promotion of competitor platforms on their sites.
I’m a member on the Clemson Rivals.com site and they regularly combat promoting competing sites. Have for years.
10 years ago I work for an audio equipment trading site and competitor sites constantly tried to use our own systems to promote their sites to our users.
IMO this behavior is fairly common and expected.
I’m a member on the Clemson Rivals.com site and they regularly combat promoting competing sites. Have for years.
10 years ago I work for an audio equipment trading site and competitor sites constantly tried to use our own systems to promote their sites to our users.
IMO this behavior is fairly common and expected.
As a European, I'm surprised about the silence from Brussels around this. They're always really good at calling things anti-competitive, but this is just about the most anti-competitive thing I've ever seen and I've not heard anything about this yet. Maybe they're just slow, but it's kinda disappointing.
twitter has just suspended pg's account.
While trying to create an account on https://mas.to, I realized that Google disabled my newly created gmail address ... for violating Google policies or using a bot for creating the account (not of which are true I think).
Why does Mastodon require an email for signup?
Why does Mastodon require an email for signup?
Archived tweet/mirror: https://web.archive.org/web/20221218204403/https://twitter.c...
It's fine for my use case. I only go to twitter through links, mostly from here and Reddit. IMO Mastodon has a slightly better interface for linked to reading but it's six of one, one half dozen of the other at the end of the day. Occasionally I read replies on tweets and always regret it...
[deleted]
Related to this - what's the deal with the HN new pages having a bunch of "[dupe] Twitter bans promotion of other social networks"? Shouldn't posting the same link add to its upvote count?
Paul Graham is specifically leaving because of this, feels like a pretty major topic of interest to HN...
Paul Graham is specifically leaving because of this, feels like a pretty major topic of interest to HN...
There's a bit of Putin invading Ukraine effect - Putin and frankly probably most Russians and frankly everyone else realizes it's a mistake. But it would be the end of him if were perceived to 'fail' on such a grand scale. The Ukrainian invasion continues (aka ending untrained soldiers as fodder) in order to salvage his status, and indirectly, the reputation of Russia.
Elon might be perceived to be too 'damaged' to fix anything now - his credibility on Twitter shot, but, were he to do a giant 'mea culpa' right now and put some other person in charge, he might win a few points frankly but it's going to be really hard for him.
Perhaps Elon could make a 'Freedom of Expression Constitution' and then put someone in place to 'Enact the Constitution' - maybe he could head the 'Constitutional Board' and then walk away saying: 'I've done what I've come to do, Mars needs me more than Twitter, it's in good hands, I'm on the Constitutional Board to make sure they follow the right path!'. That would give him public cover for his motivations and maybe save just enough face for him to get out his own way. I suggest most people would agree Twitter could have used some reforms anyhow and so even if the market didn't buy the 'narrative' they would see the reality of the situation and some upside.
Elon might be perceived to be too 'damaged' to fix anything now - his credibility on Twitter shot, but, were he to do a giant 'mea culpa' right now and put some other person in charge, he might win a few points frankly but it's going to be really hard for him.
Perhaps Elon could make a 'Freedom of Expression Constitution' and then put someone in place to 'Enact the Constitution' - maybe he could head the 'Constitutional Board' and then walk away saying: 'I've done what I've come to do, Mars needs me more than Twitter, it's in good hands, I'm on the Constitutional Board to make sure they follow the right path!'. That would give him public cover for his motivations and maybe save just enough face for him to get out his own way. I suggest most people would agree Twitter could have used some reforms anyhow and so even if the market didn't buy the 'narrative' they would see the reality of the situation and some upside.
The tweet before ban:
https://web.archive.org/web/20221218204403/https://twitter.c...
https://web.archive.org/web/20221218204403/https://twitter.c...
When it's our side o propaganda getting promoted and the other side censored it's "start your own platform, private companies don't owe you anything". When it's our side of propaganda getting censored it's "death of free speech".
I wonder when, if ever, mainstream migration will happen. For example most TV channels were posting World Cup goals on Twitter asap. Same if you follow for example NFL. Easy to follow the games with instant highlights. When will these leave or simply stop posting?
Maybe Elon is playing 15D chess, and crashing Twitter into the ground is part of a bigger plan.
Hehe, that's 44b crash so I'd assume he's posed to get at least double than that on this bigger plan.
I'll admit that I didn't care much when Elon took over. I assumed it wouldn't have much impact on me. Now that he's compiling an ever-growing list of unacceptable speech, I've stopped using Twitter, and may very well not return.
I think Musk is intentionally creating controversies, as he can roll them back anytime after a poll. These antics get a lot of press coverage, and no longer impact the price of Twitter shares, so he can play around as much as he wants.
His pearl clutching at moderation decisions made by the old Twitter contrasts badly with his series of arbitrary, self-interested moderation decisions under his leadership. But hypocrisy is one other luxury of the perversely rich.
Would be cool if there was low resource mastodon server to run for a single user.
paulg has now been banned from twitter (presumably for noting that he was making a mastadon account)
https://twitter.com/paulg
Paul, how do you reconcile your previous statements about how long (easy) it'd take to create something like Twitter with the reality of the challenges facing Elon with an already built Twitter?
It might be that I am too biased now, but when I visited twitter today the only feed that I saw (default ordering, whatever that is) was the blue mark tweets.
Anyone else experiencing something similar?
Watching Elon handle Twitter reminds me of how Andrew Lee handled Freenode.
There should be a UI shortcut for bluechecks who want to post a dramatic tweet that they're leaving Twitter and then stay. Making the most common actions on the site easier would boost usability.
Alternatively, grayed text on their profile page with the datetime of the last time they were active on Twitter.
My assumption is that it'd never be >1 hour for most people who claim they're leaving Twitter.
My assumption is that it'd never be >1 hour for most people who claim they're leaving Twitter.
It takes about 2 weeks to detox from social media if you go cold turkey.
[deleted]
I think the preferred approach if you’re outraged about Twitter management, is speak out about it on Twitter, as opposed to quit in protest. Fight the fight if it’s worth it.
Nope. The only way to win here is not to play. The more you try to "stay and fight" the more that gives twitter traffic and attention. Best to realize that Twitter is now as dead as MySpace and move on. Federation is the way so the fediverse it is.
So, if you’re pissed at twitter, you should do the very thing that keeps the money flowing in?
I don’t follow.
I don’t follow.
Why? It's a free market, easiest thing to do is vote with your feet.
Exit, Voice, and Loyalty:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit,_Voice,_and_Loyalty>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit,_Voice,_and_Loyalty>
Your solution is to try and convince Elon?
Relevant discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34040165
Related discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34040165
Title: "Promotion of alternative social platforms policy"
Context: This is specifically linked in pg's tweet.
(Which should be reasonably obvious, though several comments to this thread suggest otherwise.)
Context: This is specifically linked in pg's tweet.
(Which should be reasonably obvious, though several comments to this thread suggest otherwise.)
Did anyone get a screenshot before the account was suspended?
Paul Graham has now been banned from Twitter: https://twitter.com/paulg
I'm not famous, but it was the last straw for me too.
He is a dog whistler but not surprised since he grew up in South Africa during the same time as I.
Roelof Botha shows it is possible to outgrow a toxic upbringing.
Roelof Botha shows it is possible to outgrow a toxic upbringing.
If Paul Graham does leave Twitter and leaves a link to HN, it'll likely get shadow banned for being a link to another social network.
He hasn't left Twitter. He's just using (and learning) Mastodon while Twitter pretends to have this ludicrous linking policy.
I am not on twitter and the link doesn't clearly tell my what happened. Can someone tell me what the last straw was for him?
Sorry but what's his mastodon account? I can only see this stupid blocked message:
> Promotion of alternative social platforms policy
> Promotion of alternative social platforms policy
I only see a spinning circle. What a future.
The server is probably overloaded right now — which, I agree, is frustrating. Even the biggest instances are struggling tonight.
You may be able to load it via one of the bigger instances, though. Try going to https://mastodon.online/@[email protected].
You may be able to load it via one of the bigger instances, though. Try going to https://mastodon.online/@[email protected].
Thank you for pointing out the possibility of loading it via other instances, that is interesting.
Is this always possible or is there a certain requirement, for example that this other instance has pre-fetched the posts beforehand?
Is this always possible or is there a certain requirement, for example that this other instance has pre-fetched the posts beforehand?
[deleted]
[deleted]
imagine still unironically saying stuff like “i support Elon's vision but this is a singular bad decision” — you either lack the capacity to understand there’s no vision here other than off the cuff decision making or wildly intellectually dishonest and are playing both sides.
[deleted]
Elon seems to try so hard to show people how he is, people just don’t want to take him at his actions…
"I haven't "left Twitter." I just don't want to keep using it while it's banning links to other sites. Plus given the way things are going, it seemed like a good time to learn more about Mastodon."
https://mas.to/@paulg/109536542792559441
https://mas.to/@paulg/109536542792559441
Here's the problem: https://mas.to/@paulg/109536476979036192
I can see that he's replying to somebody, but can't actually see the conversation (presumably because there is some problem with the servers all trying to talk to each other to reassemble it?)
This is terrible.
I can see that he's replying to somebody, but can't actually see the conversation (presumably because there is some problem with the servers all trying to talk to each other to reassemble it?)
This is terrible.
These services have hyper growth right now but that will die down and become stable. Email is similar, things can get queued up and no way to see what’s going on. But most of the time it just works.
entire conversation shows up fine for me. i have no mastodon account nor am i logged in.
Hmm, maybe it's failing silently then?
Seems like if it fails to load something upstream that it should say that?
Seems like if it fails to load something upstream that it should say that?
[deleted]
I've been on this site for years and I just found out that dang is not Paul Graham
And right now, he has been banned on twitter.
Does not Musk realize that this makes him look really bad?
Does not Musk realize that this makes him look really bad?
pg is definitely not leaving Twitter. It’s impossible for two billionaires to quit each other. It’s a small close knit community and everyone is on first name terms with the other and their family. Not happening!
Twitter has done a lot of things worthy of boycotts. This seems like the least of them, though it does strike me as rather petty and telling (that the moves off Twitter are hurting). The whole thing is fascinating. Is he destroying Twitter or saving it? More time is needed to find out.
I'm in the same position as Paul Graham. Happy to support Elon... until he flagrantly broke the law. My twitter tabs are closed, when Twitter reverses I'll open them again. I was having fun.
IANAL but: You can't use market power to extend or preserve market power (monopoly isn't necessary nor the term in law.) The courts could and should enforce interoperability; never mind mentions of other services being censored. Restraint of trade.
There are lots of dumb criticisms of the transition - nothing is more difficult than changing a corporate culture, hence capitalism that allows the death of companies no matter how large. Changing software and systems is also difficult. Elon should be given time and considerable leeway. But the law is a bright red line.
Elon fired his main inhouse lawyer recently, he needs another fast. He'll figure out that this plow won't scour, and reverse himself, and I'll be back. If not, Congress or Biden will rectify the situation, probably with clear and close regulation of the sector.
IANAL but: You can't use market power to extend or preserve market power (monopoly isn't necessary nor the term in law.) The courts could and should enforce interoperability; never mind mentions of other services being censored. Restraint of trade.
There are lots of dumb criticisms of the transition - nothing is more difficult than changing a corporate culture, hence capitalism that allows the death of companies no matter how large. Changing software and systems is also difficult. Elon should be given time and considerable leeway. But the law is a bright red line.
Elon fired his main inhouse lawyer recently, he needs another fast. He'll figure out that this plow won't scour, and reverse himself, and I'll be back. If not, Congress or Biden will rectify the situation, probably with clear and close regulation of the sector.
So, what was the last straw?
PG is now banned from Twitter over that comment? The death spiral continues
People dramatically exiting twitter is childish to me. Why do you need validation for using social media? Also people having fake outrage over twitter drama and smear merchant journalists who push terms of service boundaries on purpose is equally childish. Grow up.
Suspended. That was quick.
He'll be back.
If you hate Twitter you will despise Mastodon.
That's easily disprovable, as I hate Twitter and like Mastodon. Some small growing pains, but it's been the best experience I've had on social media since Google+.
Never understood how people would leave twitter for mastodon (which is federated) as a way to protest against nonregulated free speech (not the case for pg, but that’s what’s started the trend).
What's wrong with Mastodon? I thought that because it isn't serving you ads, it has much less incentive for keeping you constantly engaged and outraged.
Following Paul Graham's link to his profile was my first visit to Mastodon. This was hugely underwhelming. It looks and feels just slow and sad, not sure how this should attract the average user.
> It looks and feels just slow and sad
Honestly, this is the same feel I get when I visit Twitter. Thing is - I don't have an app, so it's always slow.
Honestly, this is the same feel I get when I visit Twitter. Thing is - I don't have an app, so it's always slow.
Okay so I tried to join his new mastadon server and it says I can't.
So...what?
So...what?
Pick any other one, sign up there, then click the "follow" button on his profile for instructions.
How do I pick one?
I picked for you, it's https://hachyderm.io
That looks to have some pretty radical politics at its core. No thanks.
What is it you were looking to partake in? Racism, violence, fascism, colonialism, white supremacy, religious extremism, nationalism, homophobia, or transphobia?
Pick at random, or find one with a theme you enjoy. You can always move off it; a few clicks and your followers migrate over to the new one.
You can join any other Mastodon server, and still follow him even though you're on a different server. Just put his handle (the one you can find on his site) on the search bar of your Mastodon server after logging in.
Choose another. They don't all have to be on one email server, and they don't all have to be on one Mastodon server.
[deleted]
Getting big "on a bender" vibes from Elon right now...
And he's ... suspended from Twitter. Didn't take long!
[deleted]
“I’m going to Mastodon!”
Three weeks later
“Mastodon Is awful!”
And pg's Twitter account has been suspended. Crazy times.
This is beginning to feel like the Freenode takeover drama
Beginning? There have been parallels for weeks now allowing for variations of detail and scale: a rich so-and-so with not exactly leftward tendencies and an interest in Dutch Tulips who, being a heavy user of such-and-such, buys such-and-such. Employees of such-and-such depart in droves, both sides hold their peace concerning differences of opinions over said departures, distressing details of the so-and-so are dredged up, and much popcorn is had by the ever-industrious Little People. Oh, and yes, so-and-so banning anyone who mentioned going elsewhere. Other parallels could doubtless be found, but that would require doing some actual research. "Debacle" could well apply to both.
There are major differences; a notable one is that the Libera switch was mostly a quick host:port change for users; Twitter and such appear to be a tad complicated, but that's the modern web moderning. Thus, Twitter users may not have ready and viable alternatives to switch to, and probably specific differences could be found between "folks who IRC" and the general population. Also Twitter is a tad larger than Freenode, so will doubtless take longer to break up in the water, or may have better salvage value if, somehow, things can be set aright.
There are major differences; a notable one is that the Libera switch was mostly a quick host:port change for users; Twitter and such appear to be a tad complicated, but that's the modern web moderning. Thus, Twitter users may not have ready and viable alternatives to switch to, and probably specific differences could be found between "folks who IRC" and the general population. Also Twitter is a tad larger than Freenode, so will doubtless take longer to break up in the water, or may have better salvage value if, somehow, things can be set aright.
I think it’s beautiful that more and more people are being forced to confront what U.S plutocracy looks like in real-time. It’s usually caked in legalese and unspoken cultural assumptions that finance and tech people exploit while the rest of us just watch. Musk, Trump and a handful of these other cranks are turning this sociopathic toxic mess into real-time online cartoon that even a 13 year old can understand. The result can either be a new healthy awareness of how public policy is leveraged to make society more healthy and fair , or the Elon Musks of the world can continue living in a bubble, being flaming arrogant narcissist perpetually in fear of ending up like Paul Pelosi - in our real-time geo located world.
Looks like pg's account has been suspended. :/
Free speech is the horcrux of silicon valley.
No one date touch this.
No one date touch this.
Elon is speed running on how to make $44B disappear
Elon Musk has done a lot of nasty things after taking over Twitter. He has acted basically like a conquerer taking over an evil country, then publicizing all the evil things that have been happening in the country: publicly deriding engineers and their work, deriding management decisions with his "Twitter files" exposés, public firings, followed by abusing remaining employees, refusing to pay bills, letting nazis and vaccine deniers back in, and so on.
Of all those things that Musk has done, the one that paulg chose to highlight is Twitter banning links to competitors? That doesn't even seem like an unreasonable restriction!
Of all those things that Musk has done, the one that paulg chose to highlight is Twitter banning links to competitors? That doesn't even seem like an unreasonable restriction!
Paul Graham was suspended from twitter now.
[deleted]
So, when is @HNStatus leaving Twitter?
Totally agree and deleted all my excitement (Tweets) for Musk buying Twitter.
He's just another Trump/slick then unslick showman who says one thing then and promises one thing then goes back on that promise.
Telsa's self driving tech is lol
Another rich megolmaniac's mouth moron destroys years of public goodwill like Will Smith did in a second with that slap!
He's just another Trump/slick then unslick showman who says one thing then and promises one thing then goes back on that promise.
Telsa's self driving tech is lol
Another rich megolmaniac's mouth moron destroys years of public goodwill like Will Smith did in a second with that slap!
I can't read this tweet because he's blocked me. Can someone tell me what it says?
It says "HN user fortran77 upset me so much that I blocked him here and am leaving Twitter forevermore. I just can't deal with these emotions, it's too much."
Nitter is your friend:
<https://nitter.kavin.rocks/paulg/status/1604556563338887168>
<https://nitter.kavin.rocks/paulg/status/1604556563338887168>
Just open it in a private/incognito window.
What triggered this?
There's a remote possibility it's the Twitter policy he's linked in his tweet:
<https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/social-platfo...>
Archive: <https://web.archive.org/web/20221218173806/https://help.twit...>
<https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/social-platfo...>
Archive: <https://web.archive.org/web/20221218173806/https://help.twit...>
Probably the policy change forbidding posts that promote competitor platforms, currently being discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34040165
[deleted]
He'll be back
Sigh these ‘What is Elon Musk thinking?’ discussions are so tiresome, devoid of any useful content. Do we really need 600+ comments about this issue? Is everyone really so upset about some guy they don’t know?
Dude's website is a sin against the future. heh.
[deleted]
How much of the recent tomfoolery in world leadership is due to COVID / Vaccine related brain damage?
It won't shock me if Elon is going alt-right to get the only remaining segment of the US population that is currently global warming deniers and ICE car pushers to start supporting Tesla/electric cars. If he gets conservatives and governments in Texas, Florida and other Red states to move to EVs, he'll really have done more for the environment than any other human alive.
If you Qwit then they win.
But what is the game and what is the prize.
Personally, I quit years ago when old ownership responded to a major nation electing a known troll President by modifying their TOS to make a "newsworthiness" carve-out.
Their game and their rules and none of us have to play it.
Personally, I quit years ago when old ownership responded to a major nation electing a known troll President by modifying their TOS to make a "newsworthiness" carve-out.
Their game and their rules and none of us have to play it.
Twitter will be part of the entertainment center of every self driving/electric car and new mobility device. That is where Daddy Musk is taking us. Either you get on board or you lose out and play with your VR toys from daddy Zuckerberg. Either way, you can't escape it. We are going ahead ladies and gents. I would get in early if I was you.
Just like Daddy Jobs did for most of us. RIP. Those that shared the vision went far.
Just like Daddy Jobs did for most of us. RIP. Those that shared the vision went far.
The post that killed HN
He’ll be back.
I’m not so sure. I left a month ago and apart from the current tire fire, I’m just glad not to be using it. Or anything else. It was almost strictly a waste of my time, and I’d really lost sight of how rarely it wasn’t wasteful.
At this point it genuinely seems as though doing nothing would be better than using Twitter. It produces a convincing illusion of being entertaining or even useful at times, but for me it truly and wholly lacked any significant utility or fulfilling elements.
Apart from HN, I’m totally off the social media train and fairly content with it being that way.
I suppose PG has more use for social media than I do, so the case may be a little different. Even so, I doubt very much that him returning to Twitter (or anyone for that matter) is inevitable.
At this point it genuinely seems as though doing nothing would be better than using Twitter. It produces a convincing illusion of being entertaining or even useful at times, but for me it truly and wholly lacked any significant utility or fulfilling elements.
Apart from HN, I’m totally off the social media train and fairly content with it being that way.
I suppose PG has more use for social media than I do, so the case may be a little different. Even so, I doubt very much that him returning to Twitter (or anyone for that matter) is inevitable.
That’s great it sounds like Twitter and social media in general isn’t a big value add for you.
I think for Paul Graham it’s a different story since he talks to other influencers and occasionally goes viral. That sort of feedback loop well that’s quite addictive. There’s a reason why there’s no obvious Twitter competitor.
I think for Paul Graham it’s a different story since he talks to other influencers and occasionally goes viral. That sort of feedback loop well that’s quite addictive. There’s a reason why there’s no obvious Twitter competitor.
He's ... somewhat said as much:
<https://mas.to/@paulg/109536542792559441>
<https://mas.to/@paulg/109536542792559441>
Didn’t see that but just saw the top voted comment here and yeah def feel like I called it haha :)
Decision's been made for him: <https://archive.vn/ucUdh>
It's my feeling that most will be back. But the frothy frenzy will have to burn itself out first.
Lol Paul Graham is drunk after that WC match. Clearly his business interests were stunted if he’s at all near sober.
What's the point of announcing that you're leaving a social media platform?
Brief reflection might suggest a few self-evident reasons:
1. Letting people know where and how you can be found, followed, and contacted.
2. To voice dissatisfaction with practices and/or policies of the old platform.
3. To encourage others to do similarly.
I'm surprised the question is necessary, but appreciate the opportunity to clarify.
1. Letting people know where and how you can be found, followed, and contacted.
2. To voice dissatisfaction with practices and/or policies of the old platform.
3. To encourage others to do similarly.
I'm surprised the question is necessary, but appreciate the opportunity to clarify.
Paul,
Why was it ok for you to be on Twitter when the platform was loaded with child porn?
And it seems a little hypocritical that this is the red line that cannot be crossed when you seem to have had no problem with other news outlets and journalists getting deplatformed.
Maybe get out of that glass house every now and again?
Why was it ok for you to be on Twitter when the platform was loaded with child porn?
And it seems a little hypocritical that this is the red line that cannot be crossed when you seem to have had no problem with other news outlets and journalists getting deplatformed.
Maybe get out of that glass house every now and again?
You know how Musk promises one thing and delivers something else? I'm not the biggest Musk fan but I believe he has a very effective process and he is a product person - that is understands what is a good product.
He will never deliver a free speech platform, he is a free-speech NIMBY and has an agenda os something that drives him but he can still turn Twitter into something valuable.
Then people will come back for whatever Twitter will become. But because he claimed free-speech absolutism he will be held accountable for it and his persona will degrade and people won't cut him a slack and that's the risk for him to fail completely. Until very recently he was able to get thousands of dollars of payment for a product that don't exists and he even jacked up the price over the years, many people are called frauds for less than this but Musk has huge social credit among the techies and He can continue selling that product and continue claiming that it will deliver next year - indefinitely.
He needs to figure out Twitter before his personality loses credit completely and losing the support of Paul Graham, a prominent persona from the scene, is not a good sign.
He will never deliver a free speech platform, he is a free-speech NIMBY and has an agenda os something that drives him but he can still turn Twitter into something valuable.
Then people will come back for whatever Twitter will become. But because he claimed free-speech absolutism he will be held accountable for it and his persona will degrade and people won't cut him a slack and that's the risk for him to fail completely. Until very recently he was able to get thousands of dollars of payment for a product that don't exists and he even jacked up the price over the years, many people are called frauds for less than this but Musk has huge social credit among the techies and He can continue selling that product and continue claiming that it will deliver next year - indefinitely.
He needs to figure out Twitter before his personality loses credit completely and losing the support of Paul Graham, a prominent persona from the scene, is not a good sign.
> I'm not the biggest Musk fan but I believe he has a very effective process and he is a product person
What a weird thing to say after he killed twitter with his "process". Perhaps this dumpster fire is the best view yet into what he really believes, and how he really runs his companies. Elon is a modern day Kissinger
What a weird thing to say after he killed twitter with his "process". Perhaps this dumpster fire is the best view yet into what he really believes, and how he really runs his companies. Elon is a modern day Kissinger
> Elon is a modern day Kissinger
You're going to have to elaborate on that fascinating historical reference.
You're going to have to elaborate on that fascinating historical reference.
His process as, I understand it, is to re-discover the wheel and see how else it could have been done. It is messy and might not yield good results if his predecessors already did a good job but I think he has a chance and will look like a dumpster fire until he learns and finds a new path. If he fails, it will look like extinguished dumpster fire :)
I wish it were not so, but Apple has shown you can get away with a whole truck of anticompetitive ‘no you may not hear about my competitor’ behavior without harming a business.
He could be, but I'm looking at Musk and seeing big Howard Hughes energy.
> You know how Musk promises one thing and delivers something else? I'm not the biggest Musk fan but I believe he has a very effective process and he is a product person - that is understands what is a good product.
No, in the case of Twitter he clearly doesn't. Twitter's business model is advertising, yet he's been driving them away since he's started.
Even in the user-facing side he made a weird mess with the blue checkmarks that was completely unnecessary, didn't make anything better and only created confusion.
No, in the case of Twitter he clearly doesn't. Twitter's business model is advertising, yet he's been driving them away since he's started.
Even in the user-facing side he made a weird mess with the blue checkmarks that was completely unnecessary, didn't make anything better and only created confusion.
> Twitter's business model is advertising
That's true but as I've learned here on HN, that wasn't working very well already and Twitter was just an afterthought for the large advertisers. Twitter wasn't huge money maker.
That's something that he can change, this is not something fundamental about the product.
That's true but as I've learned here on HN, that wasn't working very well already and Twitter was just an afterthought for the large advertisers. Twitter wasn't huge money maker.
That's something that he can change, this is not something fundamental about the product.
Yeah, but he's making it even worse.
Now one might argue that Musk wants to ignore advertisers entirely and target the actual users. That could be an interesting thing to try. But when why is he naming and shaming and whining about advertisers? If he decided to change business models, then it doesn't matter whether Apple advertises.
If he's aiming to profit from the users, he's also doing it wrong by bringing back all kinds of formerly banned unsavory people. This will over time reduce the market share to the very specific audience that's in line with his preferences, and probably invite trouble from the EU.
Now one might argue that Musk wants to ignore advertisers entirely and target the actual users. That could be an interesting thing to try. But when why is he naming and shaming and whining about advertisers? If he decided to change business models, then it doesn't matter whether Apple advertises.
If he's aiming to profit from the users, he's also doing it wrong by bringing back all kinds of formerly banned unsavory people. This will over time reduce the market share to the very specific audience that's in line with his preferences, and probably invite trouble from the EU.
> But when why is he naming and shaming and whining about advertisers? If he decided to change business models, then it doesn't matter whether Apple advertises.
So far he sucks at managing a community and apparently doesn't understand the business he got it. Can he get his understanding to a point where he doesn't screw up every time and gets some sizeable wins? I don't know, I think it's not impossible and I think he is trying hard. But maybe before he gets on track for success, he will need to distance himself from the alt-right folks because as I see it they have completely different agenda and it's not their money and reputation on the line so they fight their ridiculous culture wars in their fantasy world and if Musk keeps feeding himself from these people He won't get real signals, real feedback and won't be able to correct course.
So far he sucks at managing a community and apparently doesn't understand the business he got it. Can he get his understanding to a point where he doesn't screw up every time and gets some sizeable wins? I don't know, I think it's not impossible and I think he is trying hard. But maybe before he gets on track for success, he will need to distance himself from the alt-right folks because as I see it they have completely different agenda and it's not their money and reputation on the line so they fight their ridiculous culture wars in their fantasy world and if Musk keeps feeding himself from these people He won't get real signals, real feedback and won't be able to correct course.
I highly doubt it. He's drastically overpaid for Twitter, to the point that it ever being profitable dubious.
Twitter is also not really that important. He's paid way too much for something that on the user side is unimpressive tech, and that is only valuable because of its inertia, and that's by no means guaranteed.
Twitter is also not really that important. He's paid way too much for something that on the user side is unimpressive tech, and that is only valuable because of its inertia, and that's by no means guaranteed.
As I understand it, if Twitter shuts down tomorrow Musk will still be tremendously rich man. Sure, he will upset some investors but the debt he took for the buyout was actually in the name of Twitter and he won't be exposed to it.
Maybe he doesn't have to make Twitter profitable to justify the outrageous price he paid, maybe it's good enough to make it break even?
Maybe he doesn't have to make Twitter profitable to justify the outrageous price he paid, maybe it's good enough to make it break even?
> As I understand it, if Twitter shuts down tomorrow Musk will still be tremendously rich man.
What does that have to do with anything? My argument is that I disagree that he "understands what is a good product", and is a good business person, at least in the context of Twitter.
Whether he can survive Twitter failing is not part of the discussion.
> Maybe he doesn't have to make Twitter profitable to justify the outrageous price he paid, maybe it's good enough to make it break even?
Profit is anything right above break even, even just one cent. So no.
What does that have to do with anything? My argument is that I disagree that he "understands what is a good product", and is a good business person, at least in the context of Twitter.
Whether he can survive Twitter failing is not part of the discussion.
> Maybe he doesn't have to make Twitter profitable to justify the outrageous price he paid, maybe it's good enough to make it break even?
Profit is anything right above break even, even just one cent. So no.
Let's agree to disagree then. My arguments looks weaker ATM anyway, I'm starting to think that he shaving his head from the top and peeing on the streets might be a plausible end to this saga.
> You know how Musk promises one thing and delivers something else?
He promises one thing and delivers a new promise for something else. Or a flamethrower.
He promises one thing and delivers a new promise for something else. Or a flamethrower.
I still think Elon is a smart guy. His work on cars and rockets speaks for itself. Nor do I think he's the villain a lot of people try to make him out to be. He's eccentric, definitely, but that should be news to no one. Plus I don't think he realizes that the techniques that work for cars and rockets don't work in social media. Those two facts are sufficient to explain most of his behavior.
He could still salvage the situation. He's the sort of person it would be a big mistake to write off. And I hope he does. I would be delighted to go back to using Twitter regularly.