Americans are returning to cities after remote-work exodus, data shows(washingtonpost.com)
washingtonpost.com
Americans are returning to cities after remote-work exodus, data shows
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/03/30/census-population-immigration-dc-new-york/
152 comments
For me the choice was teams meetings all day from the office or the same from home, saving myself the commute.
I interact with people outside of work so remote work doesn’t have a sense of isolation for me.
I have lunch with people almost every day, just they aren’t coworkers.
And I save lots of money on the commute, not to mention environmental impact.
I’m glad you like the change, but not everyone does.
I interact with people outside of work so remote work doesn’t have a sense of isolation for me.
I have lunch with people almost every day, just they aren’t coworkers.
And I save lots of money on the commute, not to mention environmental impact.
I’m glad you like the change, but not everyone does.
> I interact with people outside of work
Ding ding ding.
I think this right here is the key. It was eye opening to learn how few of my coworkers had anyone outside of work. It’s heartbreaking but clearly a burning epidemic.
I also learned how many of my coworkers prioritized being in the office every day of the week over working at home with their spouses and/or children. I can’t get over that in particular. It’s none of my business, but nonetheless it angers me.
Ding ding ding.
I think this right here is the key. It was eye opening to learn how few of my coworkers had anyone outside of work. It’s heartbreaking but clearly a burning epidemic.
I also learned how many of my coworkers prioritized being in the office every day of the week over working at home with their spouses and/or children. I can’t get over that in particular. It’s none of my business, but nonetheless it angers me.
Well, I have lots of friends and interactions outside of work, but I still prefer going into the office.
Personally, I think what makes people happy is a multidimensional surface with lots of peaks and valleys. Univariate explanations are reductive.
Personally, I think what makes people happy is a multidimensional surface with lots of peaks and valleys. Univariate explanations are reductive.
Same, but I have a hard limit for how many days per week I would prefer going into the office. I cannot fathom those who have a life outside of work actually wanting to spend 5 days a week going to the office when they have a choice otherwise.
sometimes people like spending time with coworkers!
Sometimes they hate spending time with their families too lol.
I wouldn’t say it’s heartbreaking. When you are at school that’s your main venue for meeting people, and when you are at work that’s the same. Almost all of my friends and acquaintances were met through work and I’m not really sad or embarrassed about that.
I also have a family who I love, but I don’t feel I need to be with them 24/7, or that I’m prioritising anything over them by wanting a career and to work physically with coworkers.
It isn’t reasonable for the WFH advocates to see us people who prefer the office as sad loners with messed up priorities. I personally find Zoom life 100x more depressing.
I also have a family who I love, but I don’t feel I need to be with them 24/7, or that I’m prioritising anything over them by wanting a career and to work physically with coworkers.
It isn’t reasonable for the WFH advocates to see us people who prefer the office as sad loners with messed up priorities. I personally find Zoom life 100x more depressing.
> I also have a family who I love, but I don’t feel I need to be with them 24/7, or that I’m prioritising anything over them by wanting a career and to work physically with coworkers.
And who looks after the kids or elderly parents when you're physically in the office? Or the house duties? Or do we pretend they don't exist?
The only way you can pretend you don't need to be with a child 24/7 is if you neglect your duties. You are prioritising work over family. There's no other way.
> It isn’t reasonable for the WFH advocates to see us people who prefer the office as sad loners with messed up priorities.
That's not what you prefer though. You prefer forcing everyone to accompany you in the office like a sadist. You've heard that some people prefer remote yet you force your ideals on them.
You don't prefer the office. You prefer you AND others in the office.
Different.
And who looks after the kids or elderly parents when you're physically in the office? Or the house duties? Or do we pretend they don't exist?
The only way you can pretend you don't need to be with a child 24/7 is if you neglect your duties. You are prioritising work over family. There's no other way.
> It isn’t reasonable for the WFH advocates to see us people who prefer the office as sad loners with messed up priorities.
That's not what you prefer though. You prefer forcing everyone to accompany you in the office like a sadist. You've heard that some people prefer remote yet you force your ideals on them.
You don't prefer the office. You prefer you AND others in the office.
Different.
> And who looks after the kids or elderly parents when you're physically in the office?
You know, when you are WFH, you are supposed to work. Looking after kids is not working for your employer, unless you are coasting at your job. In which case, such jobs should be consolidated. I think that's what happened at Yahoo back in the day.
You know, when you are WFH, you are supposed to work. Looking after kids is not working for your employer, unless you are coasting at your job. In which case, such jobs should be consolidated. I think that's what happened at Yahoo back in the day.
And when you're in the office you are supposed to work. So why are people complaining about missing out on "small talk" or anything else non-work?
Same same.
Same same.
Small talk helps forge bonds between team members. As an exec, I actuall encourage people mingling over lunches, coffees or walks because that creates better teams in my experience.
Yes - your experience - that's the problem i.e. the past.
Might as well you say we don't need the Internet because in your experience floppy disks are fine.
Why don't you do an actual comparison or study?
As in did you have a team with the exact conditions minus small talk and 1 with small talk and then concluded the small talk 1 created better teams? No. So how do you know which 1 it was?
I hope execs lead people forward with correct decisions using sound logic and not some vague correlation. Are we going for the 5G causes COVID drama too? In my experience the rumor might hold some value...
Might as well you say we don't need the Internet because in your experience floppy disks are fine.
Why don't you do an actual comparison or study?
As in did you have a team with the exact conditions minus small talk and 1 with small talk and then concluded the small talk 1 created better teams? No. So how do you know which 1 it was?
I hope execs lead people forward with correct decisions using sound logic and not some vague correlation. Are we going for the 5G causes COVID drama too? In my experience the rumor might hold some value...
> Why don't you do an actual comparison or study?
What makes you think I haven't done so? I have surveyed enough people at work and socially. A majority prefers hybrid, a small number favors fully remote while a small numbers wants fully in-office. Top reasons people wanted to come in office: meeting everyone in person, getting complex work (eg. designing a system) done, getting mentorship and onboarding help, free food. Top reasons people wanted to WFH: traffic.
There are a handful of cases on extreme ends with patterns like: hating social interaction, not having right conditions at home to work from etc.
What makes you think I haven't done so? I have surveyed enough people at work and socially. A majority prefers hybrid, a small number favors fully remote while a small numbers wants fully in-office. Top reasons people wanted to come in office: meeting everyone in person, getting complex work (eg. designing a system) done, getting mentorship and onboarding help, free food. Top reasons people wanted to WFH: traffic.
There are a handful of cases on extreme ends with patterns like: hating social interaction, not having right conditions at home to work from etc.
Your comments in this thread were abusive and broke the site guidelines extremely badly. We ban accounts that do that. Personal attacks are particularly not ok.
I'm not going to ban you right now, even though it looks like you've been breaking the site guidelines in other places too, because I didn't see anything this bad in your other comments and because we hadn't warned you before. But please don't do post like this again.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I'm not going to ban you right now, even though it looks like you've been breaking the site guidelines in other places too, because I didn't see anything this bad in your other comments and because we hadn't warned you before. But please don't do post like this again.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
People are always so quick to bring this up as if it's a gotcha, but it's not.
You spend roughly half of your waking hours working. Do you really want to spend that much time isolated, only interacting with other people through screens?
You spend roughly half of your waking hours working. Do you really want to spend that much time isolated, only interacting with other people through screens?
> Do you really want to spend that much time isolated, only interacting with other people through screens?
Yes. Also, the choice is made for me. I work in software and data and everyone I work with is digital whether I’m in the office or home or Timbuktu. So I don’t really have a decision. Every day my “team” is in multiple counties and time zones. There’s no way to spend time with them every day in person. Unless I want to say hello to security guards and chitchat with work strangers I’d rather spend that time with other people.
I guess there are some industries where teams can be in the same room and building. I don’t work in such an organization and I like my job. I don’t feel isolated.
Yes. Also, the choice is made for me. I work in software and data and everyone I work with is digital whether I’m in the office or home or Timbuktu. So I don’t really have a decision. Every day my “team” is in multiple counties and time zones. There’s no way to spend time with them every day in person. Unless I want to say hello to security guards and chitchat with work strangers I’d rather spend that time with other people.
I guess there are some industries where teams can be in the same room and building. I don’t work in such an organization and I like my job. I don’t feel isolated.
Yes! People trying to highlight the downsides of distanced work keep ignoring this important point. For a bunch of us, even pre-pandemic and working from _an_ office teams were often split across multiple offices, so every meeting already involved a video call.
Today, it's _easier_ for me to have an unscheduled sync with a teammate because I can immediately hop on a zoom call from my private home office. Before the pandemic, I had to first try to find an unused conference room or phone booth (because having calls in the open-plan office was disruptive). Sometimes, when there was no good space available, I'd end up standing holding a laptop (and thus unable to take any notes) in the stairwell, which had less consistent wifi signal. If a meeting runs long, we don't have to scramble as we're kicked out of rooms by the next scheduled group. And scheduling larger group meetings isn't limited by the ability to reserve multiple large conference rooms across multiple offices.
People trying to tell me that I'd be more productive from the office are so far unwilling to commit to providing an office which doesn't waste my time on this nonsense.
Today, it's _easier_ for me to have an unscheduled sync with a teammate because I can immediately hop on a zoom call from my private home office. Before the pandemic, I had to first try to find an unused conference room or phone booth (because having calls in the open-plan office was disruptive). Sometimes, when there was no good space available, I'd end up standing holding a laptop (and thus unable to take any notes) in the stairwell, which had less consistent wifi signal. If a meeting runs long, we don't have to scramble as we're kicked out of rooms by the next scheduled group. And scheduling larger group meetings isn't limited by the ability to reserve multiple large conference rooms across multiple offices.
People trying to tell me that I'd be more productive from the office are so far unwilling to commit to providing an office which doesn't waste my time on this nonsense.
Alternatively, question why we spend so much time "working".
We do not work 8 hours, but our schedules are set that way. We're only working ~3 hours per day, the rest is mostly fluff. Give people back those 5 hours and you've got a very different answer than "force people into the office just so they have time to socialize".
We do not work 8 hours, but our schedules are set that way. We're only working ~3 hours per day, the rest is mostly fluff. Give people back those 5 hours and you've got a very different answer than "force people into the office just so they have time to socialize".
Little different to how it often played out in the office, but minus the politics and the few odious characters who make office life so unbearably banal.
I’d rather do my socialising in the local community, head out to grab a sandwich from a local business, and not have to spend half of my remaining waking hours travelling to and from a place I don’t really want to be in the first place.
I’d rather do my socialising in the local community, head out to grab a sandwich from a local business, and not have to spend half of my remaining waking hours travelling to and from a place I don’t really want to be in the first place.
>"Do you really want to spend that much time isolated, only interacting with other people through screens?"
Absolutely. And I do not need to be "interacting" when I am working. There is a chat / email which I would read at my convenience. In case of emergency there are calls.
Absolutely. And I do not need to be "interacting" when I am working. There is a chat / email which I would read at my convenience. In case of emergency there are calls.
Yes, absolutely.
I realize that not everybody does though.
I realize that not everybody does though.
The thread proves there is no right answer. Some people crave in-office work and face-to-face interaction, some people prefer working from home with interaction with non-coworkers, and some people prefer working from home in isolation. This isn’t a race to find the right way and prove the others wrong!
Personally, since going remote and moving out to the boonies, I have had some weeks where I never even came within 100 meters of anyone other than my family, and it was absolutely glorious! Treating “society” as optional is amazing and liberating. Obviously not everyone shares this outlook and that’s ok!
Personally, since going remote and moving out to the boonies, I have had some weeks where I never even came within 100 meters of anyone other than my family, and it was absolutely glorious! Treating “society” as optional is amazing and liberating. Obviously not everyone shares this outlook and that’s ok!
Or rather there's more to it. Do people really prefer working from the office or do they just want to escape and dump their responsibilities on their other half or family in general?
For those that have kids - who picks them up if you're in the office? Is your partner forced not to work or remote so you get to go in?
For those that have older family to look after, again who does it?
Or who does the housework etc?
There was an earlier discussion on why open source is mostly male dominated... well guess why...
For those that have kids - who picks them up if you're in the office? Is your partner forced not to work or remote so you get to go in?
For those that have older family to look after, again who does it?
Or who does the housework etc?
There was an earlier discussion on why open source is mostly male dominated... well guess why...
[deleted]
Picking up kids - happens past 5pm typically with afterschool or daycare. Looking after older family and housework - how can you do it if you are working? Unless you mean checking in on someone old every few hours or starting your laundry, and not some time-consuming chore.
It could be anything.
1 person said they trash talk with coworkers during lunch. Perhaps instead we could have washed the dashes or started the washing machine or the laundry as you say. You can collect the parcel. Lots of small jobs.
Or when you aren't "working" in the office what do you do? Go over to a coworker and talk about "non-work"? Are you actually "working" intensively every minute?
Maybe read up on the studies or even listen to women that have had to do household work whilst working from home? What do you mean how? Good question. How do they survive when such men have forced it all on them and pretend it is nothing?
1 person said they trash talk with coworkers during lunch. Perhaps instead we could have washed the dashes or started the washing machine or the laundry as you say. You can collect the parcel. Lots of small jobs.
Or when you aren't "working" in the office what do you do? Go over to a coworker and talk about "non-work"? Are you actually "working" intensively every minute?
Maybe read up on the studies or even listen to women that have had to do household work whilst working from home? What do you mean how? Good question. How do they survive when such men have forced it all on them and pretend it is nothing?
Trash talking or having coffee with colleagues not doing work still ends up benefiting the company as it helps create good bonds. Google famously offered all the amenities on campus since it wanted employees to interact with each other and spwan new ideas. It worked extremely well for them (first hand experience, btw. I was there).
> women that have had to do household work whilst working from home?
I don't think women should be doing household work whilst working from home either. So no idea what you are trying to argue, unless you want coasting jobs which pay you a lot to just be at home and do your housework or childcare. That ain't gonna happen.
> women that have had to do household work whilst working from home?
I don't think women should be doing household work whilst working from home either. So no idea what you are trying to argue, unless you want coasting jobs which pay you a lot to just be at home and do your housework or childcare. That ain't gonna happen.
> I don't think women should be doing household work whilst working from home either.
Then magic happens? Who does it?
> It worked extremely well for them
So did we have 2 Googles where 1 did what you said and 1 didn't? Otherwise how are you drawing this conclusion to what led to its success? Maybe this is 1 part of the puzzle but it might not have been the deciding factor.
Also who says that if they all went remote and Google offered the tools for their employees to bond online that it would not work?
All you are saying is it's worked 1 way so it must be better than the other way because of some fear of the unknown?
> That ain't gonna happen.
It's pretty sad that your view of work from home = no work at all. So if anyone puts in the same amount of work hours whether it's 9-5 or 9-10 + 11-8 or whatever the balance is what's the difference? All you do is attack people that follow a different schedule and call them coasting?
Then magic happens? Who does it?
> It worked extremely well for them
So did we have 2 Googles where 1 did what you said and 1 didn't? Otherwise how are you drawing this conclusion to what led to its success? Maybe this is 1 part of the puzzle but it might not have been the deciding factor.
Also who says that if they all went remote and Google offered the tools for their employees to bond online that it would not work?
All you are saying is it's worked 1 way so it must be better than the other way because of some fear of the unknown?
> That ain't gonna happen.
It's pretty sad that your view of work from home = no work at all. So if anyone puts in the same amount of work hours whether it's 9-5 or 9-10 + 11-8 or whatever the balance is what's the difference? All you do is attack people that follow a different schedule and call them coasting?
> Then magic happens? Who does it?
You do it after hours or on weekends or hire help for that. A lot of couples with kids figured that out before the pandemic so not really any rocket science stuff about that.
> Google offered the tools for their employees to bond online that it would not work?
My company has gone all in on making remote-first work and the leadership is sincerely trying all it can. We tried many tools for online socializing (games, food and drink, some social apps...). They all sucked. Finally the company gave up and started shelling up big bucks to fly everyone in for offsites. And that has its big challenge of crazy expensive flights and hotels, or a lack of dates/locations where everyone can make it. If you got any tools which did the trick for your team, please do share.
> follow a different schedule and call them coasting
Your literal words: "do household work whilst working from home". That's not having a different schedule. That is coasting.
You do it after hours or on weekends or hire help for that. A lot of couples with kids figured that out before the pandemic so not really any rocket science stuff about that.
> Google offered the tools for their employees to bond online that it would not work?
My company has gone all in on making remote-first work and the leadership is sincerely trying all it can. We tried many tools for online socializing (games, food and drink, some social apps...). They all sucked. Finally the company gave up and started shelling up big bucks to fly everyone in for offsites. And that has its big challenge of crazy expensive flights and hotels, or a lack of dates/locations where everyone can make it. If you got any tools which did the trick for your team, please do share.
> follow a different schedule and call them coasting
Your literal words: "do household work whilst working from home". That's not having a different schedule. That is coasting.
[deleted]
Sure. When I worked in the office I mostly communicated through IM or email.
> It’s none of my business, but nonetheless it angers me.
Why does it anger you so much that different people have their own situations and preferences?
What I dislike the most about the WFH vs RTO debate is how the strongest advocates on each side seem completely baffled by the other.
Why does it anger you so much that different people have their own situations and preferences?
What I dislike the most about the WFH vs RTO debate is how the strongest advocates on each side seem completely baffled by the other.
> It was eye opening to learn how few of my coworkers had anyone outside of work.
So where do I go out and meet people who aren't super religious, ballroom dancing nuts, or alcoholics?
The other thing I'll add is that when you're in tech, there's a good chance you share a lot of interests with coworkers. This isn't the case with a lot of community social groups. Sure, they're people you see, but you don't have enough in common with them for them to ever be more than acquaintances.
So where do I go out and meet people who aren't super religious, ballroom dancing nuts, or alcoholics?
The other thing I'll add is that when you're in tech, there's a good chance you share a lot of interests with coworkers. This isn't the case with a lot of community social groups. Sure, they're people you see, but you don't have enough in common with them for them to ever be more than acquaintances.
I'm in a B-tier central valley city and even here we have a monthly multi-location art event, and coffee walk and talks. I can get brunch with the atheists or chat up other small dog owners during doggie socials. The biggest impediment to my social life is the anxiety of awkwardness when meeting new people, not the lack of opportunities.
I'm well equipped to understand the vulnerability disclosure spectrum and when and how to reveal personal information so that my relationships don't stagnate nor am I dumping on people I've just met. I can navigate conservations adeptly to find topics of common interests and genuinely connect. I've purposely enriched myself with topics tech folks tend to dismiss like psychology, sociology, and mysticism which have fruited deep personal connections with others in ways I've never dreamed of.
The effort-reward structure is much more gentle than I would have thought even 10 years ago.
I'm well equipped to understand the vulnerability disclosure spectrum and when and how to reveal personal information so that my relationships don't stagnate nor am I dumping on people I've just met. I can navigate conservations adeptly to find topics of common interests and genuinely connect. I've purposely enriched myself with topics tech folks tend to dismiss like psychology, sociology, and mysticism which have fruited deep personal connections with others in ways I've never dreamed of.
The effort-reward structure is much more gentle than I would have thought even 10 years ago.
> So where do I go out and meet people who aren't super religious, ballroom dancing nuts, or alcoholics?
Lots of coworkers have been just the same. No difference.
Lots of coworkers have been just the same. No difference.
hackerspaces
same crowd, but with people from different companies
same crowd, but with people from different companies
Most of which
are in cities
:(
are in cities
:(
> prioritized being in the office every day of the week over working at home with their spouses and/or children.
When my kids were young going into the office was easier work than staying home and keeping them. I felt guilty about not being at home with them and being able to be in the office.
When my kids were young going into the office was easier work than staying home and keeping them. I felt guilty about not being at home with them and being able to be in the office.
Sitting in the office on calls all day is pointless, I agree. Personally I'm at the point where unless you are particularly important, I will not get on a call with you. If you want my help, come walk to my desk and talk to me. Otherwise I might reply to an email when I feel like it.
For me best thing to happen is the remote working - team mates are in UK and India, and I am in NY. Works well. I catch up with others monthly which works well
I've been WFH since around 2017 or so. After a while, it starts to feel like I ship code into the void. Like I'm a freelancer who happens to be working for a company rather than an employee. This gets even worse after a round or two of layoffs and/or reorgs and being on teams with people I've never met.
I had to visit our office (first time since Jan 2020) to do some emergency heads down work with my teammates and it's incredible how I had forgotten what it feels like to be part of a company.
With that combined with the fact that people are increasingly bad at hiding the fact that they're often just taking off mid-afternoon (always fun to need a set of eyes for a critical hotfix pull request and get radio silence on Teams!), the difficulty of focusing at home, and the expense of trying to live somewhere with an extra bedroom or area as a dedicated home office, and I really wish I could go back to the office. Unfortunately I don't live in the same state as the office anymore, so I am stuck like this for now.
I had to visit our office (first time since Jan 2020) to do some emergency heads down work with my teammates and it's incredible how I had forgotten what it feels like to be part of a company.
With that combined with the fact that people are increasingly bad at hiding the fact that they're often just taking off mid-afternoon (always fun to need a set of eyes for a critical hotfix pull request and get radio silence on Teams!), the difficulty of focusing at home, and the expense of trying to live somewhere with an extra bedroom or area as a dedicated home office, and I really wish I could go back to the office. Unfortunately I don't live in the same state as the office anymore, so I am stuck like this for now.
>"After a while, it starts to feel like I ship code into the void"
It depends on what's your role. I am responsible for product design and development. I definitely do not feel like my part of code is shipped "into the void". I see it working and serving customers
It depends on what's your role. I am responsible for product design and development. I definitely do not feel like my part of code is shipped "into the void". I see it working and serving customers
The failure isn't on you nor the need for an office. It's on the company for not creating the culture. Online communities e.g. in gaming have always been vibrant. It didn't always require in-person meetups to make it work.
Company culture is set after it grows beyond a certain size. And it is very hard to change it. So why should company change it if it can continue in the same old way?
And if you think companies should change their cultures to find good talent, let me assure you - companies know that and track attrition carefully. If they didn't think they had an upper hand in forcing RTO, they wouldn't have done that. It is much easier to find workers who can come to the office than what HN seem to believe.
And if you think companies should change their cultures to find good talent, let me assure you - companies know that and track attrition carefully. If they didn't think they had an upper hand in forcing RTO, they wouldn't have done that. It is much easier to find workers who can come to the office than what HN seem to believe.
> If they didn't think they had an upper hand in forcing RTO, they wouldn't have done that.
And 640k ought to be enough for everybody too right?
> So why should company change it if it can continue in the same old way?
Yeah like why should the world improve if we can continue the same way? Why move to electricity if there's fossil fuel. Why do anything?
And 640k ought to be enough for everybody too right?
> So why should company change it if it can continue in the same old way?
Yeah like why should the world improve if we can continue the same way? Why move to electricity if there's fossil fuel. Why do anything?
Remote since 2000, run my own software product development company from home.
>"I hate video calls
Absolutely, this is why I mostly do productive work. Calls are limited and not video.
>"I hate MS Teams."
I do not hate it since I do not use it.
>"I hate sitting at home alone every day."
I do not. I work but since (except rare meetings) I am on my own schedule I free to go for a swim, bike ride, walk whatever any time I want.
>"I missed going out after work on a Friday with coworkers"
Nope. I have actual friends and we meet whenever we feel like.
>"I missed shit talking with people at lunch."
Again I have friends and can talk to them any time. Often over Skype as we spread over the world. With those here in Toronto usually meet in person on evenings / weekends.
We are just different people.
>"Remote work is convenient for odd cases"
No. It is convenient for people who like it. You are always free to go to the office if that's your cup of tea.
>"I see comments here ridiculing the idea that someone might enjoy the presence of their coworkers.
Nothing to ridicule on my end. As already said to each their own.
>"This is just not the reality everyone lives in."
Bullshit. Speak for yourself. There are enough people on each end of the spectrum.
>"I hate video calls
Absolutely, this is why I mostly do productive work. Calls are limited and not video.
>"I hate MS Teams."
I do not hate it since I do not use it.
>"I hate sitting at home alone every day."
I do not. I work but since (except rare meetings) I am on my own schedule I free to go for a swim, bike ride, walk whatever any time I want.
>"I missed going out after work on a Friday with coworkers"
Nope. I have actual friends and we meet whenever we feel like.
>"I missed shit talking with people at lunch."
Again I have friends and can talk to them any time. Often over Skype as we spread over the world. With those here in Toronto usually meet in person on evenings / weekends.
We are just different people.
>"Remote work is convenient for odd cases"
No. It is convenient for people who like it. You are always free to go to the office if that's your cup of tea.
>"I see comments here ridiculing the idea that someone might enjoy the presence of their coworkers.
Nothing to ridicule on my end. As already said to each their own.
>"This is just not the reality everyone lives in."
Bullshit. Speak for yourself. There are enough people on each end of the spectrum.
> No. It is convenient for people who like it. You are always free to go to the office if that's your cup of tea.
This doesn't work. It's not what they want. They want an office full of people so you "the remoter" has to go in as well!
This doesn't work. It's not what they want. They want an office full of people so you "the remoter" has to go in as well!
Well if the split is 50/50 there should be enough people for them.
Personally I've solved my remoting / independence problem back in 2000 and do not give a shit what they want.
Personally I've solved my remoting / independence problem back in 2000 and do not give a shit what they want.
> Well if the split is 50/50 there should be enough people for them.
IF
Not to mention not everyone wants to come in every day and then you might not meet the right people on the same day.
IF
Not to mention not everyone wants to come in every day and then you might not meet the right people on the same day.
> I want to work with and talk to people in person.
That's fine. You can do that. As you said you "want".
> Almost every day I see comments here ridiculing the idea that someone might enjoy the presence of their coworkers. This is just not the reality everyone lives in.
And there's the problem. How did you enjoy the presence of your coworkers?
If you were the only 1 in the office would you then complain?
Hint: yes.
So the gist of the issue is you want to go to the office AND force everyone to be back just so YOU are not lonely?
> I hate sitting at home alone every day.
You didn't and don't have to. What does this have to do with remote?
> I missed shit talking with people at lunch.
Again how is this a remote problem? Because you can't have lunch with people including coworkers if remote?
That's fine. You can do that. As you said you "want".
> Almost every day I see comments here ridiculing the idea that someone might enjoy the presence of their coworkers. This is just not the reality everyone lives in.
And there's the problem. How did you enjoy the presence of your coworkers?
If you were the only 1 in the office would you then complain?
Hint: yes.
So the gist of the issue is you want to go to the office AND force everyone to be back just so YOU are not lonely?
> I hate sitting at home alone every day.
You didn't and don't have to. What does this have to do with remote?
> I missed shit talking with people at lunch.
Again how is this a remote problem? Because you can't have lunch with people including coworkers if remote?
This mentality is exactly why the west will continue to face a worsening loneliness crisis and worsening social cohesion. The idea that developing relationships requires some kind of sacrifice and actual human interaction in the context of performing a larger goal is for some reason treated as completely alien.
Remote work is convenient for the not-so-odd case of having young children at home.
No coworker or company culture is worth losing having lunch with my partner and seeing them throughout the day working from home. All of that is transient, as roles come and go. For me (n=1! ymmv!), it would be kind of silly to have a partner and not see them except from when you wake until you depart for your job and when you arrive home until bedtime, five days a week. Work is where the paycheck is, home is where the people I want to spend time with are. I empathize with folks who get their social life/interactions from their workplace, but I do not. There’s enough org variety we can self select into the best orgs for how we want to live our lives.
(remote for ~10 years, married 15, together 20)
Edit: I acknowledge some relationships require time apart. n=1!
(remote for ~10 years, married 15, together 20)
Edit: I acknowledge some relationships require time apart. n=1!
I absolutely need the time away from my partner
> Edit: I acknowledge some relationships require time apart. n=1!
This is about the freedom to do so. Nothing stops you from going to a cafe or somewhere else. It's remote work.
It's about freedom not 1 or the other.
This is about the freedom to do so. Nothing stops you from going to a cafe or somewhere else. It's remote work.
It's about freedom not 1 or the other.
I vigorously agree. The anecdote is provided because, so often, people make an argument that much isn’t lost by being forced into an office. And that simply isn’t true.
Having young children at home and having to take care of them, you won't be able to work at all. I know that because I have a few of my own.
In these circles and at this hour of the night on a Saturday? Families are inconceivable and children are best not contracted.
Edit: It’s either Saturday or Sunday at this point. It’s a weekend. None of us should be here. I’m not going to be pedantic.
Edit: It’s either Saturday or Sunday at this point. It’s a weekend. None of us should be here. I’m not going to be pedantic.
Why shouldn't we be here??
time is relative. It may be saturday for you but not for everyone.
I go into the office, but it's still pretty empty. It's getting to the point where I might leave in 6 months for somewhere where people actually come in. I'm just not sure where that is anymore.
My company has already lost good people because of this. They want to work somewhere with people, and that wasn't us.
There is so much joy from getting on the train every morning and hearing the chatter.
Hey, if you've got the time to spare, and like getting up significantly earlier than you would otherwise have to. And you are into ... chatter.
Then walking in to the office and getting to work with real people instead of feeling like an automation in a box churning through jira tickets.
I've had plenty of onsite jobs where I felt like no less of on automaton (or worse). Seems uncorrelated with onsite/remote, per my data trail.
Hey, if you've got the time to spare, and like getting up significantly earlier than you would otherwise have to. And you are into ... chatter.
Then walking in to the office and getting to work with real people instead of feeling like an automation in a box churning through jira tickets.
I've had plenty of onsite jobs where I felt like no less of on automaton (or worse). Seems uncorrelated with onsite/remote, per my data trail.
>Almost every day I see comments here ridiculing the idea that someone might enjoy the presence of their coworkers.
This seems misleading, I've rarely come across that even among people who are in threads proclaiming they completely prefer remote 100%.
What I do see is a ridiculing of the idea that you have to be in an office environment to socialize, or that those relationships are anywhere near as fulfilling as people who actively choose to be somewhere out of a shared interest (and not a financial incentive).
There are also great discussions on which type of work benefits most from team in person environments and which doesn't.
Either way, I wholly despise the binary perspective on remote/office work as mostly being quite short sighted. The idea isn't we should pick one or the other, it's the desire for more flexibility on how we approach work hours.
This seems misleading, I've rarely come across that even among people who are in threads proclaiming they completely prefer remote 100%.
What I do see is a ridiculing of the idea that you have to be in an office environment to socialize, or that those relationships are anywhere near as fulfilling as people who actively choose to be somewhere out of a shared interest (and not a financial incentive).
There are also great discussions on which type of work benefits most from team in person environments and which doesn't.
Either way, I wholly despise the binary perspective on remote/office work as mostly being quite short sighted. The idea isn't we should pick one or the other, it's the desire for more flexibility on how we approach work hours.
I may like my coworkers just fine but there are a thousand other reasons why being in the office or physically around them is not so fun. Smelling the smokers/smoke sometimes for hours when someone leaves the smoker room door open or the constant coughing or the ever so slightly audible music through their headphones may all seem like non-problems to the people who cause them but it's not so nice to be on the receiving end. I highly suspect that all these so called sociable people are often being sociable at a cost to others. And taking these random social breaks all the time is not productive, it doesn't matter how much they paint a picture of these amazing ideas that come out from randomly meeting someone in the hallway. Also I have never met someone who actually likes going to the office more than working from home so it might literally be people who have their own office at the office, aka: bosses, higher ups. I mean if I had my own entire office at work then I wouldn't mind so much either. I actually temporarily had my own office for a while and it felt great. Total peace and quiet and you can still talk to people in person when someone wants to. Then it changes and all the small problems reappear.
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> I have never met someone who actually likes going to the office more than working from home
That would seem to be a comment on the number/type of people you meet more than anything. There are days I'm happy to WFH but I'm very glad I don't do it 5 days a week any more (and I used to ~18 years ago, as well as through much of 2020 and 2021).
That would seem to be a comment on the number/type of people you meet more than anything. There are days I'm happy to WFH but I'm very glad I don't do it 5 days a week any more (and I used to ~18 years ago, as well as through much of 2020 and 2021).
I think we all simply want full control over whether we go into the office or not, on daily basis. I am not fully home office either but ultimately home office is superior because you have more control over your life.
Actually I have pretty poor self control working from home, the fridge is far too accessible, as are various other distractions around the house! The main advantage is that I can easily make myself a decent cup of coffee at home at minimal cost - machines at the office will provide free but invariably undrinkable coffee, or you can pay $5+ for a decent cup if you're prepared to ride the elevators to ground level and walk a few hundred metres. The only other reason to avoid the office is when the weather's crap (given I commute by bike).
The usage of "metres" also gives away that your office environment likely has more accessible things around it too. Anywhere I have had an in office job has had nothing but parking lots and road around it.
I live in one of the least densely populated countries on the planet! I would think there'd be just as many tech jobs based in downtown office buildings in the US as there are here...(admittedly this the first job I've had with such an office, having been in same industry/city for >25 years).
That’s terrible. In Australia, basically every office is surrounded by literally hundreds of options for food and coffee accessible by a short walk.
Might make sense why some people have such different views of the office when the actual environment is vastly different.
Might make sense why some people have such different views of the office when the actual environment is vastly different.
For sufficiently restricted values of "basically every" perhaps! True for the CBD, and sure, most inner-suburban offices have a very decent selection of such options (not 100s, but certainly more than enough), but there are tech jobs based in outer-suburban offices where that is definitely not the case. One of my first jobs was in such an office (in Kilsyth) and I still have somewhat fond memories of being there for various reasons.
> This seems misleading
It's not as in those that claim so prove they can't type, write out something coherent or use online tools. They don't know how to build relationships otherwise. It's the only way they can interact with people (in-person).
> The idea isn't we should pick one or the other, it's the desire for more flexibility on how we approach work hours.
The remote argument has always been do what you like vs the in-office argument has always been force everyone back. The problem with those preferring in-office is that they don't prefer to go to the office. They prefer to have someone (unwillingly) go to the office to sit next to them.
It's not as in those that claim so prove they can't type, write out something coherent or use online tools. They don't know how to build relationships otherwise. It's the only way they can interact with people (in-person).
> The idea isn't we should pick one or the other, it's the desire for more flexibility on how we approach work hours.
The remote argument has always been do what you like vs the in-office argument has always been force everyone back. The problem with those preferring in-office is that they don't prefer to go to the office. They prefer to have someone (unwillingly) go to the office to sit next to them.
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Companies need to adjust to WFH to make sure everyone still feels like a team. People will bellyache about it, but you need regular video calls and the occasional meat-space meet-up or you just feel like an anonymous cog in a big machine. Some people prefer keeping their coworkers at arms length, and that's fine for them. Others need to be on the look out for a culture that helps you feel like part of a team.
We had this originally, but over the last year, the people who enjoyed and attended the social calls all ended up coming in to the office and ignoring the optional chat calls.
That's not an issue with remote work. That's the way the company operates - it's failure on the "people" and culture team.
I share the sentiment.
I am considering actually measuring my mood but it looks like the office helps me.
45 minutes of walking after work does a lot of good to my mental health. I also do a sort of one meal a day “diet” where i consume just coffee at work, and it actually costs a lot less.
Worst case is that I leave late and it’s cold so i take an uber, but I actually prefer it.
I am considering actually measuring my mood but it looks like the office helps me.
45 minutes of walking after work does a lot of good to my mental health. I also do a sort of one meal a day “diet” where i consume just coffee at work, and it actually costs a lot less.
Worst case is that I leave late and it’s cold so i take an uber, but I actually prefer it.
For real? All of those things are what I detest about having A Job. I bought a farm, am no longer working in a corporate job, and would rather die indigent than ever go back to that shit again.
Yore problem is not remote work, your problem is the lack of meaningful relationships
I'm in the same boat.
Your joy sounds like my nightmare.
shrimp_emoji(1)
Please keep in mind that some of your coworkers might hate talking to you and only do so to avoid conflict. For each coworker, try to track the amount of conversations you initiate with them and the amount of conversations they initiate with you. If the former ever significantly exceeds them latter, consider leaving them alone.
Edit: I just noticed that your HN account is less than two years old, and yet you've managed to post 3,772 times. Whoa. You certainly love to socialize!
Edit: I just noticed that your HN account is less than two years old, and yet you've managed to post 3,772 times. Whoa. You certainly love to socialize!
Kind of a rant, but if you hang out on places like Reddit, sometimes it feels like the whole world has crippling social anxiety and hates people.
In real life, everyone seems to be craving human interaction. It’s sad sometimes. Being afraid to have small talk with people isn’t introversion, it’s a mental problem. Places like NYC have completely popped off again and I think we’ll see more and more demand for walkable social areas
In real life, everyone seems to be craving human interaction. It’s sad sometimes. Being afraid to have small talk with people isn’t introversion, it’s a mental problem. Places like NYC have completely popped off again and I think we’ll see more and more demand for walkable social areas
> Being afraid to have small talk with people isn’t introversion, it’s a mental problem.
It's a societal problem. Too many people invade our attention constantly to try and sell us something, whether that be a product or service, a fad, or political bullshit. We have necessarily become defensive about people invading our attention uninvited.
It's a societal problem. Too many people invade our attention constantly to try and sell us something, whether that be a product or service, a fad, or political bullshit. We have necessarily become defensive about people invading our attention uninvited.
I doubt people not liking small talk is a recent development. It's probably not fair to call it a mental problem, but the crippling anxiety some people experience around phone calls and simple conversations are absolutely mental problems and have nothing to do with advertisments.
I used to be afraid of phone calls. I think I'm pretty much over it now. Not entirely sure what got me over it, probably joining a large company and being bombarded with 100s of people and meetings non stop. Eventually you stop worrying.
>In real life, everyone seems to be craving human interaction. It’s sad sometimes. Being afraid to have small talk with people isn’t introversion, it’s a mental problem.
It's often disturbing how obvious it is. I can tell when someone is deeply lonely, and as much as I feel sorry for them, the lack of awareness they have about the way they're presenting themselves makes me feel overwhelmed and avoid interacting with them.
Thankfully I invested a lot of time into reverse engineering how normal people behave in high school when I ran out of other things to do, so now when I meet people they think I'm well adjusted and charismatic instead of an extremely eccentric and unpredictable nerd.
It's often disturbing how obvious it is. I can tell when someone is deeply lonely, and as much as I feel sorry for them, the lack of awareness they have about the way they're presenting themselves makes me feel overwhelmed and avoid interacting with them.
Thankfully I invested a lot of time into reverse engineering how normal people behave in high school when I ran out of other things to do, so now when I meet people they think I'm well adjusted and charismatic instead of an extremely eccentric and unpredictable nerd.
Have a browse at MildlyInfuriating sometime. 75% of those posts would be resolved just by talking to someone for 30 seconds. You hit the nail on the head, it's like everyone there is afraid to speak to another person.
Agree with the other commenter that "small talk" has always been a problem. Just as a courtesy and trying to keep up with work appearances do many keep it up. Way before remote but outside of work in-person and in forums there have been lots of rants on "small talk".
It's also very robotic. Small talk never want real responses. Oh like when you begin the conversation with "How was your day?" and the expectation is to say "fine thanks" or similar? What's the point?
Are you sure everyone hates people or just those requesting things like "small talk" are the problem?
It's also very robotic. Small talk never want real responses. Oh like when you begin the conversation with "How was your day?" and the expectation is to say "fine thanks" or similar? What's the point?
Are you sure everyone hates people or just those requesting things like "small talk" are the problem?
Whether to define something like that as a mental problem is completely arbitrary and culturally defined by what is normal. Additionally, some people have no choice but to live with their mental problems or whatever you want to call them.
I take issue with the idea that psychology, psychiatry and drugs are for the purpose of normalising everyone.
I take issue with the idea that psychology, psychiatry and drugs are for the purpose of normalising everyone.
You're right, but that's because Reddit is a place where people with crippling social anxiety who hate people, tend to hang out online. It wasn't always that way, but seems to have taken that turn around the time Yahoo neutered Tumblr, when they all seemed to have migrated over to Reddit and made it unusable.
Subreddits are still pretty valuable, but agreed that the front page is hell.
Its teenage angst, nihilism, and dangerous witch hunts. Like a kind of lord of the flies, but with “adults” in the mix.
Its teenage angst, nihilism, and dangerous witch hunts. Like a kind of lord of the flies, but with “adults” in the mix.
The amount of projection in these remote vs in-office discussions is staggering. Just because you have a preference doesn't mean you should expect everyone else to have the same preference. Some people like going into the office everyday, others like working from home everyday, and everything else in-between.
There may be other factors at play as well. Maybe a person would like to go into the office more often, but they don't want to live in the city or make a long commute everyday. Maybe their particular office is very boring and quiet, or maybe it's loud and distracting and overstimulating. Maybe you get along great with your coworkers, or maybe your coworkers are intolerable and you can't stand being around them. Some people have crafted the perfect home office for themselves, and others may not have space for a home office.
It's very much a matter of personal taste, but there could also be many other factors at play. Point is, what works for one person doesn't work for everyone.
There may be other factors at play as well. Maybe a person would like to go into the office more often, but they don't want to live in the city or make a long commute everyday. Maybe their particular office is very boring and quiet, or maybe it's loud and distracting and overstimulating. Maybe you get along great with your coworkers, or maybe your coworkers are intolerable and you can't stand being around them. Some people have crafted the perfect home office for themselves, and others may not have space for a home office.
It's very much a matter of personal taste, but there could also be many other factors at play. Point is, what works for one person doesn't work for everyone.
Ok, so the pendulum is swinging in the other direction, balance is being restored. Young people need to be with other young people in dense cities, where they can meet each other. As a 33 year-old with a family, going back to the city would be dreadful for me.
As a 33-year-old with no family, I'm happy to finally have a chance to go back in the office again.
Right, but I don’t think it’s a stretch to imagine you would be happier to have a family outside the concrete jungle. At that point, you would do everything in your power to flip this.
I get it’s a bit over the line for me to make that assumption, but I think it’s probably a safe one.
I get it’s a bit over the line for me to make that assumption, but I think it’s probably a safe one.
Why do you make those assumptions? Lots of people prefer big city life, and some people prefer not having a family. Marriage and children aren't for everyone. That's never been a universal thing. And people have always flocked to the cities, not just for job opportunities, but because cities offer a lot of other activities and services, in addition to all the networking opportunities.
Lots of people without kids are happy with remote work as well though. It’s not some family/childfree divide.
Nor does it have to do with age. The mantra that young people prefer the office or juniors can't learn being remote is just sad. Perhaps it is companies that lack documentation, training material or proper onboarding.
Office feels like a lazy excuse to skip a bunch of things.
Office feels like a lazy excuse to skip a bunch of things.
People have been having families in cities since the first cities were founded. Suburbs as we know them have only existed since the 40's.
I'm in my 30's quite happily single, but if I do have a family there's no way I want to move them to the suburbs. As a friend who raised two very successful kids in NYC (just like he was raised) once said to me, "As a parent, I have never had to worry about either one getting a car with someone who's been drinking, and that alone is worth it."
I'm in my 30's quite happily single, but if I do have a family there's no way I want to move them to the suburbs. As a friend who raised two very successful kids in NYC (just like he was raised) once said to me, "As a parent, I have never had to worry about either one getting a car with someone who's been drinking, and that alone is worth it."
“Outside the concrete jungle” and “have a family” are two separate things. It doesn’t take much googling to find some studies and literature reviews to show that there isn’t a definitive divide between people who do and do not have families when it comes to measuring “happiness”. As far as living outside of cities, this is obviously based on lifestyle preferences.
I live in a city with a family and it's lovely.
The article doesn’t take an ounce of oxygen to mention it, but how many people are being forced back to the office or city for risk of losing their jobs?
I’m not giving an ounce of fucking credit when people are having their livelihoods threatened because the incestious controlling boards want their CMBS values to go back up and pump the value of their other investments in the city.
I’m not giving an ounce of fucking credit when people are having their livelihoods threatened because the incestious controlling boards want their CMBS values to go back up and pump the value of their other investments in the city.
How many people left urban areas for rural in the first place? I guess very little. Most of the migration was towards suburbs or cheaper cities.
Turns out we didn’t all change at our core humanity. By and large, we like to be with other people.
Exactly. Going remote, I spend way more time with people that actually matter.
Some of the comments here...wow.
If you crave human interaction, here's a thought: "Go outside". You don't need to go to work to meet other humans.
If you crave human interaction, here's a thought: "Go outside". You don't need to go to work to meet other humans.
If you are going to spend half of your waking hours with a team, it's better to have good bonds with them rather than mere transactional relationships. And in-person interactions makes better team connections than Zoom.
Your comment has 0 to do with WFH or remote. All you've said is that Zoom is worse than in-person. Well there could be another tool. Does remote = Zoom now?
And Zoom can be better than a poor office with a terrible chair, small monitor and other bad equipment. Again this doesn't mean in-person itself is bad either.
And Zoom can be better than a poor office with a terrible chair, small monitor and other bad equipment. Again this doesn't mean in-person itself is bad either.
Sure but which other tool is there in practice? I have seen only Zoom (and equivalents like Google Meet) and an in-person 30 min coffee is 10x better than a quarter-full of weekly Zoom socials. So if you know anything better, please do share.
Not practical, if you spend the majority of your waking hours working, as most Americans do.
But having interactions outside of work is also important, and this is where 'go outside' would be helpful.
But having interactions outside of work is also important, and this is where 'go outside' would be helpful.
Go work from a coffee shop or something then.
That's what I thought when I was 20, but social interactions don't happen by osmosis. Walking up to a stranger in a coffee shop and talking to them is actually quite strange, especially if everyone there is working.
You're better off with shared interest groups: exercise clubs, hobbies, that sort of thing. It's like the social parts of work, but you don't get paid for it and you don't have to leave when you move to a new job. You can even go out as a group in the evenings after the activity ends if you want to, just like work!
You're better off with shared interest groups: exercise clubs, hobbies, that sort of thing. It's like the social parts of work, but you don't get paid for it and you don't have to leave when you move to a new job. You can even go out as a group in the evenings after the activity ends if you want to, just like work!
> but social interactions don't happen by osmosis
Nor do they happen by going to the office (except for fake forced 1s out of courtesy or to try and fit in).
If it happens it happens office or not.
Nor do they happen by going to the office (except for fake forced 1s out of courtesy or to try and fit in).
If it happens it happens office or not.
If you spend 6-8 hours per day on work, then that leaves fewer than four hours a day in which you have to do non-maintenance activities. Even fewer if you have family or are tending to aged parents, for example.
This describes the majority of working age people, particularly in older countries such as the US and the UK.
For these people, if they are working at the office with others, this time represents the optimal or most likely opportunity to have some social interaction outside of family.
This describes the majority of working age people, particularly in older countries such as the US and the UK.
For these people, if they are working at the office with others, this time represents the optimal or most likely opportunity to have some social interaction outside of family.
Different strokes for different folks. Most of my friends are people I met at work, and I have 10x as much fun in person.
My preference is for office work with like minded individuals, so I am fine with the current push to fire remote workers. They can find a different company with a culture they prefer.
Live and let live.
My preference is for office work with like minded individuals, so I am fine with the current push to fire remote workers. They can find a different company with a culture they prefer.
Live and let live.
every time there's some temporary exogenous shock there's always the same wave of "certainly this is the end of XY" predictions. The entire globe is urbanizing, regardless of country or culture. It's such a strong secular trend and the economic and cultural gravitational pull of urban areas is so strong that people en masse moving to the countryside is a very obvious fantasy.
and saying it right now for the future, the Bay Area is going to continue to be the overwhelming center of tech in the US and nope, everyone's not going to move to Austin.
and saying it right now for the future, the Bay Area is going to continue to be the overwhelming center of tech in the US and nope, everyone's not going to move to Austin.
Yeah and Detroit is going to continue to be the hub of Auto industry and Pittsburgh is going to continue to be the hub of Steel industry.
While you are right about increasing urbanization, prior to the pandemic there was clear movement away from large cities into small urban areas. That is what seemed to accelerate during the pandemic.
I’m not sure that some kind of push to truly rural living was ever really on the docket. Leaving the city doesn’t have to mean living in the wilderness. There is quite a bit in between. A town with 2,000 people is deemed urban.
I’m not sure that some kind of push to truly rural living was ever really on the docket. Leaving the city doesn’t have to mean living in the wilderness. There is quite a bit in between. A town with 2,000 people is deemed urban.
Seems to me everyone is craving human interaction, but they have gotten so comfortable being at home all the time, they forgot how to muster the energy to get out of the home
Might be more the case that they have no one to get out of the home with?
I think what this data actually shows is that there are many people out there who strongly desire to know and hang out with people who are neither family nor co-workers. It's hard to get the opportunities to do that if you aren't in a city. If they could do that in the rural areas or the butbs, they probably would. But rural areas have far fewer people.
And the burbs are not set up for chance encounters. The burbs are more setup for planned encounters. Which brings you back to the original problem of finding someone to plan an encounter with. :(
I think what this data actually shows is that there are many people out there who strongly desire to know and hang out with people who are neither family nor co-workers. It's hard to get the opportunities to do that if you aren't in a city. If they could do that in the rural areas or the butbs, they probably would. But rural areas have far fewer people.
And the burbs are not set up for chance encounters. The burbs are more setup for planned encounters. Which brings you back to the original problem of finding someone to plan an encounter with. :(
This might be a problem with the US? In lots of other places e.g. in Asian cities you don't need anyone.
There are so many events, attractions, opportunities etc happening just by strolling the streets. It's lively. Everything is walkable and accessible. Public transport is easy.
There are so many events, attractions, opportunities etc happening just by strolling the streets. It's lively. Everything is walkable and accessible. Public transport is easy.
I agree, but I don't think my friends would be any more likely to have enough energy to hang out if they were forced to return to the office.
I live in a big city in the USA, and i truly hate being forced into an office. I have tons of outside activities, hobbies, community involvements, and commuting is a waste of time to be in someone else's environment, getting constantly interrupted, not having the ergonomics I've spent decades learning to have, and enabling my context switching when necessary.
I'm fine with the occasional on site collaboration and camaraderie are fine, but every week? No. I'm productive because I'm a professional.
I'm fine with the occasional on site collaboration and camaraderie are fine, but every week? No. I'm productive because I'm a professional.
Seems odd to me to group places like NY and SF together solely based on the second derivative of their population. If one has bounced back and restarted growth, while the other continues to shrink, just less rapidly, you can’t say they’re comparable. Regrowth vs slowed shrinkage are different things, even if they look similar by calculus.
Good. It did create a panic in heart and mind of folks for a moment who proclaim there will only be two kind of people in the world 1) Those who already live in the city and 2) Those who will move to city soon.
Capitulation
I moved back to SF in 2021 after living outside Yosemite (in Mariposa) for a year. There've been ups and downs.
Sure, and they are returning to the offices.... Yet another sponsored article trying to set a trend.
Correction: are forced to return to cities.
Decided to pack up my stuff and move to the city. I now come in to the office every day and it’s improved my mood so much. There is so much joy from getting on the train every morning and hearing the chatter. Then walking in to the office and getting to work with real people instead of feeling like an automation in a box churning through jira tickets. In a few weeks I got to know the people I work with better than the 2 years I had been interacting with them on Teams.
Remote work is convenient for odd cases like having an appointment mid day, but for the vast majority of the time, I want to work with and talk to people in person.
Almost every day I see comments here ridiculing the idea that someone might enjoy the presence of their coworkers. This is just not the reality everyone lives in.