Apple’s plunge in PC shipments is steepest among major computer makers(bloomberg.com)
bloomberg.com
Apple’s plunge in PC shipments is steepest among major computer makers
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-04-10/apple-s-40-plunge-leads-pc-shipments-down-as-tech-demand-sags
366 comments
Still slightly higher than Q1 2020 or Q1 2019, so really just regression to the mean after the unusual spike in demand created by the pandemic.
Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/263428/apples-revenue-fr...
Generally Apple users don't update their computers too often, and when they released the M1 models a lot of people had models pre-2016 that needed upgrading (since pos-2016 models sucked balls).
So, part of that unusual demand was also customers finally upgrading their old MacBooks.
So, part of that unusual demand was also customers finally upgrading their old MacBooks.
Also people that didn't need to upgrade their machines upgraded anyway cause the M1 jump was so significant.
I was supplied a decently-specced late-2019 16-inch i9 MBP for work when I started in mid-2020. Basically about the best Intel MBP that ever got released. Then the M1's came, I got a 14-inch base model M1 Pro (which I calculate to have cost about 1/2 the price work paid for my machine) and it runs circles around the work machine. I haven't run benchmarks or anything but in general performance, app startup time, even just how long it takes to redraw the desktop when I plug/unplug a monitor is night and day.
The Intel -> Apple Silicon jump is significant, but if you bought a specced out M1 Max or something, there's not going to be a reason to upgrade for a while.
I was supplied a decently-specced late-2019 16-inch i9 MBP for work when I started in mid-2020. Basically about the best Intel MBP that ever got released. Then the M1's came, I got a 14-inch base model M1 Pro (which I calculate to have cost about 1/2 the price work paid for my machine) and it runs circles around the work machine. I haven't run benchmarks or anything but in general performance, app startup time, even just how long it takes to redraw the desktop when I plug/unplug a monitor is night and day.
The Intel -> Apple Silicon jump is significant, but if you bought a specced out M1 Max or something, there's not going to be a reason to upgrade for a while.
> Also people that didn't need to upgrade their machines upgraded anyway cause the M1 jump was so significant.
People keep perpetuating this myth, but the only significant jump in performance from x86 was with the Air. With all other models, it was always as Apple does with new models, and what we should have come to expect (yet we always expect more for some reason and there is always disappointment at the performance increases of new models), which is incremental performance improvements. What was amazing about M1 was that Apple switched platforms without missing a step. In general, the first M1 models where only incrementally more performant than the immediately previous x86 models they replaced, just like the M2 models are only an incremental improvement over the M1 models they replaced, and just like every new hardware release from Apple... a fractional step forward and never giant leaps and bounds. After all, that's probably impossible, as Apple's new hardware is always cutting edge at release (except for the 1999/2000 G4 tower fiasco when the processor speed actually went down for one release).
People keep perpetuating this myth, but the only significant jump in performance from x86 was with the Air. With all other models, it was always as Apple does with new models, and what we should have come to expect (yet we always expect more for some reason and there is always disappointment at the performance increases of new models), which is incremental performance improvements. What was amazing about M1 was that Apple switched platforms without missing a step. In general, the first M1 models where only incrementally more performant than the immediately previous x86 models they replaced, just like the M2 models are only an incremental improvement over the M1 models they replaced, and just like every new hardware release from Apple... a fractional step forward and never giant leaps and bounds. After all, that's probably impossible, as Apple's new hardware is always cutting edge at release (except for the 1999/2000 G4 tower fiasco when the processor speed actually went down for one release).
I'm assuming you're looking at some unimpressive cherry-picked numbers but in real world the performance is night and day. It's not mass psychosis -- give someone 2 identical Macs with the only difference being one is Intel and one is Apple silicon, they'll be able to tell the difference. Screen instantly turns on when you open it and gets you a fully functional desktop without you having to sit around while it loads things back into memory, apps start up faster, etc.
Yeah, it’s not really raw performance that is excels at, rather the tight integration of the entire platform that gives a much better experience overall. My code compiles in about the same amount of time as on an i7, but apps open faster, switching programs while a ton of apps are open doesn’t cause momentary pauses, and overall the platform feels much more responsive.
I had a similar i9 16'' MBP. Lasted 2h on video conference. New 14'' lasts about 9h. The Intel MBP tried to be too thin and failed at being a good laptop for work.
It was still better than the previous generation with the garbage keyboard.
Yeah I'm glad I managed to just barely dodge the bad keyboard era of Macs.
I generally use an external keyboard anyway (just Apple's Magic Keyboard) but for the times I do move away from my desk it's nice to type on a keyboard where you can actually feel the travel unlike those god forsaken butterfly switches.
I generally use an external keyboard anyway (just Apple's Magic Keyboard) but for the times I do move away from my desk it's nice to type on a keyboard where you can actually feel the travel unlike those god forsaken butterfly switches.
Actually, if you bought an entry level m1 Air, there's probably not going to be a reason to upgrade for a while.
I’m still using a 15” MBP from 2012 for my personal computer! Waiting to see if a 15” MacBook Air gets released soon, as per the rumors.
Me too. I'll be looking at what gets released this year and decide to buy. I think it's safe to say after 11 years of daily, and rather extensive use, it's time to update! Problem is, it just continues to work so daggone well!
I would say wait. If you're not stressed at work and the machine does what you want it to do then perfect! I usually get to aroun ~7 years before upgrade but 11 would be amazing.
The new models are so fast it's like magic compared to those older models. Even if they have SSDs.
I would be if the mobo hadn't died unexpectedly! Such a great machine and with 16 GB, worked fabulously. My work-provided 8 GB 13" MBP M1, OTOH, presents me with momentary SPODs at least twice a day.
Last year I upgraded from a early 2013 15" MBP to the 16" Max and it's like a whole new world. Way more storage and memory. I can imagine going from the same machine to the M2 would be amazing but from M1 to M2 not enough of a bump to pay the price.
Last year I upgraded to an M1 Pro; this year a coworker took that machine and I bumped up to an M2 Max. I can't really tell a difference.
Not surprising. M1 pro -> m1 max = same number of cores at the same speed. So only if you are doing something CPU intensive and not cache friendly would you notice the memory bandwidth doubling.
M1 generation -> M2 generation is a pretty small difference, not something you'd normally notice. In my experience unless using a stopwatch or running benchmarks folks don't usually notice improvements till they get into the 1.5 to 2x range.
M1 generation -> M2 generation is a pretty small difference, not something you'd normally notice. In my experience unless using a stopwatch or running benchmarks folks don't usually notice improvements till they get into the 1.5 to 2x range.
I have one of the too, it’s great but _might_ upgrade soon.
The Macbook Air that's out right now is like 13.6 inches. The screen is much better than the 2012 models, so with the resolution it will feel as big probably if not bigger.
But the Air has a lower resolution than a 15inch 2012 MBP? 2880 by 1800 vs 2560 x 1664.
I switched from a 15” Intel to a 14” M1. The screen is WAY better, but certainly somewhat smaller. As you note, pixels are still pixels.
As big as rumored 15" or as big as 2012 13"? Both does not make sense.
Cybersecurity dawg. Unless you are running Linux on it, you are at least 10x more at risk of a worm like penetration than something running a up to date OS.
He's running the latest os lol
The newest macOSes aren't available for HW that old. My 2015 MBP is already in the death row, update-wise.
Later versions of macOS can be installed on older hardware than is officially supported by Apple, by using OpenCore Legacy Patcher: https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/
It can run Catalina (10.15). That was getting support up until November 2022. While it is past its end of life, it isn't something that is half a decade out of support.
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I mega-splurged on the crazy M1 Max MacBook Pro and can't see needing to upgrade this beast for... a while.
Yeah truth be told I consider that Apple should've waited atleast another year for the M2 Max. Maybe improve it a little further since even the M1 Max it's way ahead of anything in the laptop market right now.
I have a 2017 model; other than replacing the keyboard (for free) I've been happy with it (also keyboard replacement ended up being a good thing as I got a whole new top-case with it for free). Would like to get an Mx but will probably wait until it does (I don't "need" to upgrade at this point, more like a "want").
I feel the same way about my 16' i7 from 2019... but I also have an 14' M1 Pro for work, and if I didn't already have that, I would have definitely upgraded. It's just a much better machine, if nothing else from a battery life perspective. Twice as better, and that counts a lot for me.
I can't understand why anyone would want to support a manufacturer that designs a configuration that has the storage an memory soldiered in.
Might be because it’s the “soldering in” that boosts its performance. So if you can plan ahead you come out ahead.
That's true for the memory (RAM), but not the storage (SSD). Socketed SSDs are just as fast and almost as light as soldered, and there is no good technical reason why they shouldn't be upgradable for a long time.
I'm in the market for a new Mac. I'm currently using a late 2013 15-inch Retina as my trusty friend. If the M2 Max came with socketed SSD I'd buy it today with the 96GB RAM and max spec in every other regard, despite the price being nearly double what I paid for my current machine 9.5 years ago.
But because the SSD is soldered on, expensive and non-upgradable, and I'm always running out of space, and I want to be able to work with some large models, databases and VMs, I need to plan ahead the next 5 years in terabytes. Ensuring enough storage headroom for potential future use takes the price to a level where it's a major commitment I'll have to stick with for years, so I decided to wait and see what comes out later this year instead.
So count me as one of the potential M2 customers who was excited to get one, then after a long wait last year for the M2 MBPs to come out, and a long period of deciding which model to get after they came out, in the end decided to wait, with the unnecessarily soldered-in, non-upgradable SSDs being a factor in why.
(I have some other doubts: When I tried in store, the keyboard on the M2 MBPs is not as nice to type on compared with the 2013 model, and the trackpad is annoyingly large, and prone to triggering tap-to-touch from my hands while typing, and click-to-touch is not my preference. But those aren't bad enough to affect my purchasing decision, as long as the M1/M2 processors are still well ahead of the rest.)
I'm in the market for a new Mac. I'm currently using a late 2013 15-inch Retina as my trusty friend. If the M2 Max came with socketed SSD I'd buy it today with the 96GB RAM and max spec in every other regard, despite the price being nearly double what I paid for my current machine 9.5 years ago.
But because the SSD is soldered on, expensive and non-upgradable, and I'm always running out of space, and I want to be able to work with some large models, databases and VMs, I need to plan ahead the next 5 years in terabytes. Ensuring enough storage headroom for potential future use takes the price to a level where it's a major commitment I'll have to stick with for years, so I decided to wait and see what comes out later this year instead.
So count me as one of the potential M2 customers who was excited to get one, then after a long wait last year for the M2 MBPs to come out, and a long period of deciding which model to get after they came out, in the end decided to wait, with the unnecessarily soldered-in, non-upgradable SSDs being a factor in why.
(I have some other doubts: When I tried in store, the keyboard on the M2 MBPs is not as nice to type on compared with the 2013 model, and the trackpad is annoyingly large, and prone to triggering tap-to-touch from my hands while typing, and click-to-touch is not my preference. But those aren't bad enough to affect my purchasing decision, as long as the M1/M2 processors are still well ahead of the rest.)
an external usb-c m2 enclosure is amazingly fast and only $20 or so
Good point. That might be the way to go. Thanks for the suggestion.
I hadn't thought of it, as older USB drives (ie. my experience, 2013 MBP) are much slower for large data than the internal storage, some of my work is storage I/O performance constrained, and I don't want to carry around yet another dongle. But the price differential vs Apple built-in and flexibility/upgradability, at current USB4 speeds makes a compelling case.
(I read anout significant differences between M1 and M2 for some flavours of USB storage link speed, which might persuade me to opt for the M2 after all.)
I hadn't thought of it, as older USB drives (ie. my experience, 2013 MBP) are much slower for large data than the internal storage, some of my work is storage I/O performance constrained, and I don't want to carry around yet another dongle. But the price differential vs Apple built-in and flexibility/upgradability, at current USB4 speeds makes a compelling case.
(I read anout significant differences between M1 and M2 for some flavours of USB storage link speed, which might persuade me to opt for the M2 after all.)
Does modularity increase size/weight? Increase in warranty fraud? More complexity so higher probability of breakage?
I think the only real challenge to upgradable storage is dealing with broken power management that's widespread in consumer NVMe SSDs. The security, size and weight concerns all seem manageable, especially given that non-Apple laptops already commonly require the use of single-sided M.2 modules.
Don't you have to "inflation adjust" any value that is denominated in dollars (like this revenue metric) over time?
$1.00 in January 2019 is $1.20 in 2023 https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm
$1.00 in January 2019 is $1.20 in 2023 https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm
How much did the electronics category inflate?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/216055/annual-percentage...
https://www.statista.com/statistics/216055/annual-percentage...
Yeah, would be better to look at units shipped rather than revenue.
However, most of the inflation during that period came from housing, energy, vehicles, food, not consumer electronics.
However, most of the inflation during that period came from housing, energy, vehicles, food, not consumer electronics.
So the stock should regress to the mean by this logic since it's up 100% since then?
Nope. That logic might be correct if Apple’s profits were 100% from the Mac.
There’s this smaller device called the iPhone…
There’s this smaller device called the iPhone…
It's not even that -- the relevant measure is revenue beat/miss, not absolute numbers.
True. However, Apple is currently priced at 30x P/E. Lots of growth is priced in.
Wow, only 30x?
Here's data. # of Apple shipment.
2019 Q1 - 3.9m
2020 Q1 - 3.1m
2021 Q1 - 6.7m (111.5% increase YoY)
2022 Q1 - 7.0m
2023 Q1 - 4.1m
Apple experienced explosive growth in 2021Q1 over 2020 Q1 compared to other PC makers.
Lenovo (+59.1%)
HP (+64.1%)
Dell (+23.4%)
Apple (+111.5%)
Acer (+73.5%)
Where as Lenovo and HP declined ~15% in 2022 Q1, Apple managed to gain 4.5%. So compared others, Apple had more to fall.
Looking at the multi-year trend, the 2023 PC sales volume is returning to 2019 figure, except Apple.
Lenovo 13.4m (2019) vs 12.7m (2023)
HP 13.5m (2019) vs 12.0m (2023)
Dell 10.4m (2019) vs 9.5m (2023)
Apple 3.1m (2019) vs 4.1m (2023)
2019 Q1 - 3.9m
2020 Q1 - 3.1m
2021 Q1 - 6.7m (111.5% increase YoY)
2022 Q1 - 7.0m
2023 Q1 - 4.1m
Apple experienced explosive growth in 2021Q1 over 2020 Q1 compared to other PC makers.
Lenovo (+59.1%)
HP (+64.1%)
Dell (+23.4%)
Apple (+111.5%)
Acer (+73.5%)
Where as Lenovo and HP declined ~15% in 2022 Q1, Apple managed to gain 4.5%. So compared others, Apple had more to fall.
Looking at the multi-year trend, the 2023 PC sales volume is returning to 2019 figure, except Apple.
Lenovo 13.4m (2019) vs 12.7m (2023)
HP 13.5m (2019) vs 12.0m (2023)
Dell 10.4m (2019) vs 9.5m (2023)
Apple 3.1m (2019) vs 4.1m (2023)
This would be a very good comment, if only it had a source attached.
Not able to edit the comment now, but the source is IDC Quarterly Personal Computing Device Tracker.
They're quoted in a few different publications.
2019,2020 https://9to5mac.com/2020/04/13/idc-gartner-mac-shipments-q1-...
2020,2021 https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210409005459/en/PC-...
2022,2023 https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS50565723
They're quoted in a few different publications.
2019,2020 https://9to5mac.com/2020/04/13/idc-gartner-mac-shipments-q1-...
2020,2021 https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210409005459/en/PC-...
2022,2023 https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS50565723
ChatGPT turing test
To be honest, I think it's pretty obvious this has less to do with M1/M2 tech specs and more to do with the vast majority of Americans getting a couple checks from the government which basically cover the exact price of a new Macbook.
> the vast majority of Americans getting a couple checks from the government which basically cover the exact price of a new Macbook.
Source?
And source that they spent that income on MacBooks?
Source?
And source that they spent that income on MacBooks?
I know we are all very analytical on this site and love to comment "source?" any time someone infers something from a dataset, but this seems like one of those times we can easily correlate the two.
The lower class who needed those checks to pay rent and buy food did just that.
However there was a large portion of the population who did not lose their jobs and considered those stimulus checks "fun money." Many used it to purchase goods they typically wouldn't have 1k+ to spend on regularly.
Couple that with many working from home, their children going to school from home and needing a laptop, and the sheer boredom factor, I don't think it's a leap to correlate stimulus checks with a huge jump in Macbook sales given the time frame.
Again, you also have to factor in that the check was pretty much exactly what a new, entry-level (aka most popular SKU), Macbook Air would cost after taxes.
The lower class who needed those checks to pay rent and buy food did just that.
However there was a large portion of the population who did not lose their jobs and considered those stimulus checks "fun money." Many used it to purchase goods they typically wouldn't have 1k+ to spend on regularly.
Couple that with many working from home, their children going to school from home and needing a laptop, and the sheer boredom factor, I don't think it's a leap to correlate stimulus checks with a huge jump in Macbook sales given the time frame.
Again, you also have to factor in that the check was pretty much exactly what a new, entry-level (aka most popular SKU), Macbook Air would cost after taxes.
That's not obvious at all. Source?
These are worldwide shipment numbers.
Other countries may also gave a check to people like the US. I got 100kJPY ($900) from Japan govt. Also everyone stop travelling in 2020.
Didn't most of these happen before the introduction of the M1 macs ?
The first model hit retail at the end of 2020, and we were already way deep into the covid/wfo cycle, with people buying any laptop available at the time to cover for the transition.
In that respect, the introduction of M1 machines looks to me to happen way after the dust settled on the gov incentives front.
The first model hit retail at the end of 2020, and we were already way deep into the covid/wfo cycle, with people buying any laptop available at the time to cover for the transition.
In that respect, the introduction of M1 machines looks to me to happen way after the dust settled on the gov incentives front.
I think Apple being as big, and making the big technological leap with M1 convinced a lot of customers to buy the new Macs. Even those that technically weren’t needing one/upgrade. Now, that curiosity bubble has saturated with the M2 being an iterative improvement and the customer base certainly not as desperate (intel to M1). Given enough time, I think the Macs will continue to gain market share. Most tech companies now provide MacBooks for their employees as a default choice. One doesn’t lose such grip easily.
This makes sense. Amongst my friends, a number of them maxed out an M1 machine not just because of the processor but also because of the improved I/O and new form factor. The M1 machine ticked so many boxes that the purchase decision was not solely pushed by the CPU. The machines are so good it’s hard to justify a new one!
Same here. I maxed out the M1 14” MacBook Pro as soon as it came out. It was a huge upgrade in every way. The M2s look great, but the only real difference is a slight bump in horsepower.
I’ll wait a release or two before upgrading. Apple haven’t lost an M2 sale because they’ve done anything wrong, they’ve guaranteed an M3 or M4 sale because they nailed it. It’ll take a while for that success to show up in their books though.
I’ll wait a release or two before upgrading. Apple haven’t lost an M2 sale because they’ve done anything wrong, they’ve guaranteed an M3 or M4 sale because they nailed it. It’ll take a while for that success to show up in their books though.
Yep I maxed out the 14" M1 and Its incredible
I’m working with a maxed out M1 MacBook Pro and I can’t imagine it being obsolete any time soon. Apple might not sell me a computer for several years, but I spent far more than I would have otherwise. Assuming all goes well, I’ll probably do the same thing when I do buy again.
It won't. My daily driver is still a mid-2010 iMac.
Cybersecurity. You are 10x more likely to be hacked than someone running a modern OS with browser+os-level zero days patched. At least run Linux on it.
Why do you think they haven’t updated the OS and browser?
Also, how can you patch a zero day?
Also, how can you patch a zero day?
Apparently according to online sources, the latest OS supported on a 2010 iMac is macOS Mojave, and the latest security update for Mojave was released in 2021.
Later versions of macOS can be installed on older hardware than is officially supported by Apple, by using OpenCore Legacy Patcher: https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/
Same here. I’ve wanted a MacBook Air since the core 2 duo days but the processor was always too slow and RAM too small. The fanless M1 air was exactly what I’ve wanted for 15 years.
> and RAM too small
The current default is 8GB and max is 16GB. It isn’t too high even now considering it’s 2023
The current default is 8GB and max is 16GB. It isn’t too high even now considering it’s 2023
I’m the tech guy in my circle and despite my wishes most of my friends and family get the standard 8GB models. Beside one friend that had a crazy memory link, most of them don’t bat an eye. If Safari, Word, and Excel open they don’t mind too much.
8GB is fine at the moment on MacOS. The standard is still 8gb for most non-performance laptops and there are legions and legions of corporate HPs and Dells with 8GBs.
8GB is fine at the moment on MacOS. The standard is still 8gb for most non-performance laptops and there are legions and legions of corporate HPs and Dells with 8GBs.
Really, 8GB is only a problem if you use multiple Electron apps or heavy Webapp tabs (full-fat Gmail, Google Docs) at once or use lots of VMs, which is something most people don't do unless it's for work (or not at all, unless they're tech nerds, in the case of VMs). Otherwise, they'll have 1-3 heavy webshit things open at a time, generally, which fits OK in 8GB.
It's when you've got two or three needlessly-heavy web "dashboards" and Gmail and Slack and Jira and Notion all eating 500-1500 MB each that 8GB starts to feel cramped.
It's when you've got two or three needlessly-heavy web "dashboards" and Gmail and Slack and Jira and Notion all eating 500-1500 MB each that 8GB starts to feel cramped.
I think 8gb is totally fine if all you are doing is full-stack JS development, with some light backend stuff thrown in (Python rest service, maybe even running postgres locally).
I occasionally run my tech stack on a 12' MacBook with an Intel m3 processor to make sure that I haven't gone overboard with tooling, mostly to ensure international, developing country open source contributors don't have to struggle opening local servers and such on their machines.
I occasionally run my tech stack on a 12' MacBook with an Intel m3 processor to make sure that I haven't gone overboard with tooling, mostly to ensure international, developing country open source contributors don't have to struggle opening local servers and such on their machines.
Max is 24GB on M2 Air. It's a great machine but pretty expensive.
Every iOS programmer needed to make the jump. Coding directly on ARM rather than an x86 emulator of ARM is a huge deal.
In addition, Apple obsoletes Xcode for new phones quite regularly. Once the M1 was out it and working fine it was clear that support for x86 would get killed post haste.
In addition, Apple obsoletes Xcode for new phones quite regularly. Once the M1 was out it and working fine it was clear that support for x86 would get killed post haste.
> The machines are so good it’s hard to justify a new one!
I imagine Apple will have to accelerate planned obsolescence (maybe dropping from 7 to 5 years of OS and security updates) to make analysts happy. ;-/
More seriously, I've gotten 7+ years of use out of multiple Apple devices. Though my 2014 iPad Air 2 is probably going to be retired from the internet once iPadOS 15 security updates end.
Also I expect a minor boost for Apple if Apple Silicon based Mac Pro machines (and perhaps pro iMac models?) turn out well.
I imagine Apple will have to accelerate planned obsolescence (maybe dropping from 7 to 5 years of OS and security updates) to make analysts happy. ;-/
More seriously, I've gotten 7+ years of use out of multiple Apple devices. Though my 2014 iPad Air 2 is probably going to be retired from the internet once iPadOS 15 security updates end.
Also I expect a minor boost for Apple if Apple Silicon based Mac Pro machines (and perhaps pro iMac models?) turn out well.
I use iPhones for the “cuz it just works” factor, and with those M chips, I am tempted to make the switch from Windows PCs
These days laptop PCs are unreliable across most brands I have tried and supplied with crapware and the operating system is hostile and forces stuff like OneDrive on you and begs you not to install Chrome.
Last 2 years over 2 devices:
Broken screen (not due to external)
Touchscreen not working
Lid came apart
Audio stops working while windows uodates pending
Laptop stopped turning on
With the latest device I got all the extended warrantees and accidental damage coverage as the pot odds made it worth paying 33% of the device price over 3 years.
These days laptop PCs are unreliable across most brands I have tried and supplied with crapware and the operating system is hostile and forces stuff like OneDrive on you and begs you not to install Chrome.
Last 2 years over 2 devices:
Broken screen (not due to external)
Touchscreen not working
Lid came apart
Audio stops working while windows uodates pending
Laptop stopped turning on
With the latest device I got all the extended warrantees and accidental damage coverage as the pot odds made it worth paying 33% of the device price over 3 years.
> These days laptop PCs are unreliable across most brands I have tried and supplied with crapware and the operating system is hostile and forces stuff like OneDrive on you and begs you not to install Chrome.
That is true but Apple's OneDrive equivalent thing iCloud is the same way, they even show fake red notifications on program icons to make you sign into iCloud and use dark patterns to make you use iCloud. They don't push Safari as much but they've been stagnating it on purpose across all their products to protect their App Store revenue, which is quite the turn off.
Apple's hardware can also have problems as evidenced on here and forums but overall might be better than a cheaper laptop, just like PC laptops. Anyway my two biggest reasons for not going with a MacBook were that I think a touchscreen should be a mandatory as an option in 2023(at least for tapping on links etc. if not multitouch) and being able to play specific FPS titles in a pinch(like in a hotel while traveling) which are not available on the Mac. I was able to get an OLED HDR touchscreen running at 120hz which is gorgeous.
That is true but Apple's OneDrive equivalent thing iCloud is the same way, they even show fake red notifications on program icons to make you sign into iCloud and use dark patterns to make you use iCloud. They don't push Safari as much but they've been stagnating it on purpose across all their products to protect their App Store revenue, which is quite the turn off.
Apple's hardware can also have problems as evidenced on here and forums but overall might be better than a cheaper laptop, just like PC laptops. Anyway my two biggest reasons for not going with a MacBook were that I think a touchscreen should be a mandatory as an option in 2023(at least for tapping on links etc. if not multitouch) and being able to play specific FPS titles in a pinch(like in a hotel while traveling) which are not available on the Mac. I was able to get an OLED HDR touchscreen running at 120hz which is gorgeous.
> They don't push Safari as much but they've been stagnating it on purpose across all their products to protect their App Store revenue, which is quite the turn off.
Uhh, citation needed.
You think the webkit team is just sitting on their hands because of some upper management mandate?
edit: Don't just downvote me. Provide some evidence for this take.
Uhh, citation needed.
You think the webkit team is just sitting on their hands because of some upper management mandate?
edit: Don't just downvote me. Provide some evidence for this take.
Them not pushing Safari to increase App Store revenue makes no sense if you just give it one second of thought.
80%+ of App Store revenue comes from games an in app purchases in games according to the Epic trial. Those wouldn’t be web apps anyway.
Also if it were just Safari and iOS that’s keeping web apps from becoming popular, then why are companies creating web apps, iOS apps and Android apps instead of telling Android users to just use the web app?
Finally, outside of games, most revenue that flows through apps are either based on advertising or payments for subscriptions outside of the App Store. Many streaming services for instance have stopped allowing in app purchases ages ago.
80%+ of App Store revenue comes from games an in app purchases in games according to the Epic trial. Those wouldn’t be web apps anyway.
Also if it were just Safari and iOS that’s keeping web apps from becoming popular, then why are companies creating web apps, iOS apps and Android apps instead of telling Android users to just use the web app?
Finally, outside of games, most revenue that flows through apps are either based on advertising or payments for subscriptions outside of the App Store. Many streaming services for instance have stopped allowing in app purchases ages ago.
As an avid Windows wizard who strongly dislikes Apple, I will give credit where credit is due: Apple's shit Just Fucking Works(tm).
Seriously, they just work. An M1 or M2 Macbook Air is the ideal laptop and computer for the vast majority of people. Games? There are game consoles for games, which also Just Fucking Work(tm).
Seriously, they just work. An M1 or M2 Macbook Air is the ideal laptop and computer for the vast majority of people. Games? There are game consoles for games, which also Just Fucking Work(tm).
You can also play a decent amount of games on M1 Macs, but nothing spectacular or amazing. They can emulate almost anything with DirectX 11, but 12 is just not operational in any way at all.
Most emulators work swimmingly.
Most emulators work swimmingly.
Crossover - a commercial implementation of WINE by CodeWeavers - is indeed amazing!
Which devices gave you such trouble?
Lenovo Flex, Asus Vivobook, Dell XPS13
Desktops are a different breed. They last forever.
Desktops are a different breed. They last forever.
A thinkpad would offer great build quality, although some of that is slipping due to Lenovo’s cost cutting strategies.
Unfortunately, today’s Windows OS is spyware, especially Windows 11, so the entire OS needs to be removed, if you want a good machine which fires not constantly send usage data to the Azure mothership, or some 3rd party.
Unfortunately, today’s Windows OS is spyware, especially Windows 11, so the entire OS needs to be removed, if you want a good machine which fires not constantly send usage data to the Azure mothership, or some 3rd party.
People have being lamenting the death of thinkpad for nearly 20 years. Lenovo purchase in 2005, keyboard changes in 2012, etc
It's still here, and still solid
It's still here, and still solid
I’ve been using thinkpad for over a decade and have noticed decline in quality on hardware and even firmware/software on the device. They have been regularly making the keyboard worse and it’s gotten down to 1.5mm of key travel or worse from about 2mm prior (1.8mm more recently). This is in addition to the chicklet keyboard style, which also sucks compared to the keyboard style they had before (W520 and older)
It still has some of the best build quality overall, among PC manufacturers.
It still has some of the best build quality overall, among PC manufacturers.
A ThinkPad running Windows is not solid compared to a recent MacBook running macOS. Part of it is due to Lenovo (plastic case that flexes, crappy trackpad, terrible speakers, etc…), part is Intel’s fault (CPU that runs hot and uses a lot of power) and part is due to Windows (a weird sleep mode that has the fan spinning even when the machine is closed and in a bag). This is all from my experience with a recent P1.
Maybe they are as solid as they’ve always been, but the bar has been raised and Lenovo, Intel, or Microsoft haven’t responded yet.
There are a lot of smart people working on these problems and I’m hopeful that Intel will soon leapfrog Apple and fast, fanless Windows machines with 12+ hours of battery life will be available.
Maybe they are as solid as they’ve always been, but the bar has been raised and Lenovo, Intel, or Microsoft haven’t responded yet.
There are a lot of smart people working on these problems and I’m hopeful that Intel will soon leapfrog Apple and fast, fanless Windows machines with 12+ hours of battery life will be available.
My P1 isn't great either, largely due to the nvidia GPU consuming more power than anything else in the machine. But other lenovo laptops (with integrated GPUs, and AMD cpus) are pretty fantastic on the battery lifetime front.
That said, I think the software stack these days has more to do with it than anything. As I mentioned in another comment its entirely possible to get the power consumption of AMD laptops into the 3-4W range with a modern linux kernel, light browsing, emacs, etc. And that is largely in my case due to assuring there aren't any background tasks consuming CPU time, and running powertop --autotune, assuring inactive HW is turned off when its not being used, cpus are spending most of their time in deep sleep, etc. All stuff that the mac is basically doing out of the box (or running background tasks on low power, etc cores). While I'm getting 15+ hours out of a fairly pedestrian 65Wh battery, which is pretty amazing since the screen and assorted devices (disk, ram, etc) are probably 1-2W of the total. Now all this goes to sh*t when I start running a compiler, or other CPU intensive work, but from my experience that happens on the M1 macs as well, which can get quite toasty and kill the battery life if left building software for an hour or more. Powertop, turbostat, cpupower are all useful diagnostic tools as well as disabling stuff in the BIOS, or powering stuff off (or at least into lower power modes) via the kernel/ACPI power methods.
(presumably some of the more efficient intel might be good too if one clamps the CPU freq/etc I've just not tried one, but i'm pretty happy with a couple of their older generation i3/i5 desktop machines).
Windows used to be reasonably good, but I get the feeling the new generation (modern standby anyone?) isn't as dedicated, and hence the machine isn't forced into a S3 like mode when the lid is closed. Combined with the apparently fragmented way the OS is built means the people in charge of power mgmt can't tell the people in charge of windows defender to get bent or any other part of the platform that excessively consumes power. So that said, the P1's support linux, which means there is an option for S3 in the BIOS, flip it on, and run the windows task schduler/runon/etc features and kill anything that can wake the laptop. That should keep it from running the fans in your bag. There used to be an option in the windows power control panel to select the action for lid close too, if its still there, then set it to sleep (S3) or hibernate (S4).
That said, I think the software stack these days has more to do with it than anything. As I mentioned in another comment its entirely possible to get the power consumption of AMD laptops into the 3-4W range with a modern linux kernel, light browsing, emacs, etc. And that is largely in my case due to assuring there aren't any background tasks consuming CPU time, and running powertop --autotune, assuring inactive HW is turned off when its not being used, cpus are spending most of their time in deep sleep, etc. All stuff that the mac is basically doing out of the box (or running background tasks on low power, etc cores). While I'm getting 15+ hours out of a fairly pedestrian 65Wh battery, which is pretty amazing since the screen and assorted devices (disk, ram, etc) are probably 1-2W of the total. Now all this goes to sh*t when I start running a compiler, or other CPU intensive work, but from my experience that happens on the M1 macs as well, which can get quite toasty and kill the battery life if left building software for an hour or more. Powertop, turbostat, cpupower are all useful diagnostic tools as well as disabling stuff in the BIOS, or powering stuff off (or at least into lower power modes) via the kernel/ACPI power methods.
(presumably some of the more efficient intel might be good too if one clamps the CPU freq/etc I've just not tried one, but i'm pretty happy with a couple of their older generation i3/i5 desktop machines).
Windows used to be reasonably good, but I get the feeling the new generation (modern standby anyone?) isn't as dedicated, and hence the machine isn't forced into a S3 like mode when the lid is closed. Combined with the apparently fragmented way the OS is built means the people in charge of power mgmt can't tell the people in charge of windows defender to get bent or any other part of the platform that excessively consumes power. So that said, the P1's support linux, which means there is an option for S3 in the BIOS, flip it on, and run the windows task schduler/runon/etc features and kill anything that can wake the laptop. That should keep it from running the fans in your bag. There used to be an option in the windows power control panel to select the action for lid close too, if its still there, then set it to sleep (S3) or hibernate (S4).
I've been really happy with my P14s Gen 2 AMD. I don't understand the appeal of overly rigid metal laptops that dent. You have to really try to flex the P14s. Sleep works fine, I use S3 sleep. I haven't encountered it heat up and burn through battery in a bag like my old 2018 MBP did a couple times. Speakers and trackpad aren't great but I prefer the trackpoint and headphones work fine.
Yeah, hopefully x13s gen2 will be such device [for those who care on battery usage].
My current Thinkpad T14 is the best laptop I've ever used.
The great IBM ThinkPad is dead, long live with ThinkPad. Still a bit better than other laptops.
Better avoid Android or ChromeOS as well then.
Their hardware are quiet good and often worth cost.
But their software are barely average and services (iCloud et al) downright pathetic. Definitely much worse than OneDrive which in itself it’s not great. I mean any data I have in iCloud I assume it’s gone — I don’t even consider it a safe copy of mu data. There’s barely any transparency around it (which is actually Apple’s DNA - lack of transparency in general).
But their software are barely average and services (iCloud et al) downright pathetic. Definitely much worse than OneDrive which in itself it’s not great. I mean any data I have in iCloud I assume it’s gone — I don’t even consider it a safe copy of mu data. There’s barely any transparency around it (which is actually Apple’s DNA - lack of transparency in general).
> I mean any data I have in iCloud I assume it’s gone — I don’t even consider it a safe copy of mu data.
What is it about Apple that inspires such absurd hyperbole from the commentariat in general?
What is it about Apple that inspires such absurd hyperbole from the commentariat in general?
I never lost data in iCloud - is this a common occurrence?
No, they just don't like Apple software and are looking for a reason to ding them. Which, fair, XCode is trash.
If they don't think either service is great, they can just run a local media server or use dropbox. Apple doesn't force you to use iCloud, and I personally think it's less obtrusively advertised on the OS than OneDrive. Personally.
If they don't think either service is great, they can just run a local media server or use dropbox. Apple doesn't force you to use iCloud, and I personally think it's less obtrusively advertised on the OS than OneDrive. Personally.
A lot of Apple's stuff Just Works but when it stops working it Just Stops Working, and it majorly sucks because there is so little in the way of diagnostics, buttons to force manual sync, etc.
I say this as someone who has been using a Mac as their preferred system since the late nineties.
I say this as someone who has been using a Mac as their preferred system since the late nineties.
Next time try opening “console” and looking at the logs. Usually it’s a deluge of logs but usually shows what is failing even if it doesn’t make sense as to why
What the hell! Never knew even hn had so many fruit company fans that took the company criticism that personally. As if iEvangelism wasn’t enough.
It isn’t about losing data. It’s more about not knowing what is happening or what is not.
For example message sometimes just don’t sync on some devices. Sometimes a 300MB video file is taking just forever to sync with iCloud. Hours! When everything else is working smooth on a 800mbps connection. And you cannot do a thing about it. You write a note on one iPhone and then you don’t see on another for minutes, sometimes hours, or on another Mac. I mean the list is endless. As a matter of fact there’s no versioning either in any of its services that you could verify something.
So it’s not about losing data. It’s about not knowing! Not knowing whether you have lost data, or might lose, or anything about it!
What makes it worse is Apple making every other apps that you could use instead a third class citizen on their OS. So you have alternatives but you don’t.
For example message sometimes just don’t sync on some devices. Sometimes a 300MB video file is taking just forever to sync with iCloud. Hours! When everything else is working smooth on a 800mbps connection. And you cannot do a thing about it. You write a note on one iPhone and then you don’t see on another for minutes, sometimes hours, or on another Mac. I mean the list is endless. As a matter of fact there’s no versioning either in any of its services that you could verify something.
So it’s not about losing data. It’s about not knowing! Not knowing whether you have lost data, or might lose, or anything about it!
What makes it worse is Apple making every other apps that you could use instead a third class citizen on their OS. So you have alternatives but you don’t.
Honestly have never had an issue with apps not sharing iCloud data (also I don't put 300MB+ files on iCloud Drive).
I do use other file sharing tools that work just fine (1Pass, Google+, etc).
I do use other file sharing tools that work just fine (1Pass, Google+, etc).
> Most tech companies now provide MacBooks for their employees as a default choice.
Depends on your location, bubble and what kind work you do. Where I live now in Europe, companies mostly provide PC laptops with with Windows (vast majority) or sometimes Ubuntu on the same machines, because the bean counters here are far too scroogy to justify to management switching the entire fleet to Macs. Also probably because it's what most IT guys here are used to managing so moving everything to Macs would mean costs the company is not willing to bear.
If by tech you only mean agile web and mobile dev shops, then yes, it tends to be a majority Mac scene, but tech is much more generic and encompasses more industries than just web-dev. If you go to traditional tech industries, banks or large enterprises, it will 98% sure be a Windows machine here with almost no choice in the matter.
Only the frontend, graphic design and mobile app guys in my current company get Macs, the backend guys Ubuntu, and all the rest Windows.
Depends on your location, bubble and what kind work you do. Where I live now in Europe, companies mostly provide PC laptops with with Windows (vast majority) or sometimes Ubuntu on the same machines, because the bean counters here are far too scroogy to justify to management switching the entire fleet to Macs. Also probably because it's what most IT guys here are used to managing so moving everything to Macs would mean costs the company is not willing to bear.
If by tech you only mean agile web and mobile dev shops, then yes, it tends to be a majority Mac scene, but tech is much more generic and encompasses more industries than just web-dev. If you go to traditional tech industries, banks or large enterprises, it will 98% sure be a Windows machine here with almost no choice in the matter.
Only the frontend, graphic design and mobile app guys in my current company get Macs, the backend guys Ubuntu, and all the rest Windows.
My company does periodic refreshes of laptops, and we get an option of a Windows PC or a Mac. I do most of my development on cloud-hosted dev boxes, and minimal "local" development (though I do most of my code-reading locally).
The primary reason I switched to selecting a Mac is that it is extremely quiet. The fans rarely turn on in the M1 MBP. There's no coil whine. Back while I was working in the open-plan office, I woudn't notice the noise from the machine next to me over the generally loud office environment with its air handling, people walking by, etc. But while working from home, the near constant fan noise from the Windows machine randomly spiking the CPU to 100% was maddening.
Next time I replace my personal laptop (XPS 13 9370), I'm strongly considering getting a Macbook Air. I really appreciate having a completely silent machine.
The primary reason I switched to selecting a Mac is that it is extremely quiet. The fans rarely turn on in the M1 MBP. There's no coil whine. Back while I was working in the open-plan office, I woudn't notice the noise from the machine next to me over the generally loud office environment with its air handling, people walking by, etc. But while working from home, the near constant fan noise from the Windows machine randomly spiking the CPU to 100% was maddening.
Next time I replace my personal laptop (XPS 13 9370), I'm strongly considering getting a Macbook Air. I really appreciate having a completely silent machine.
Pretty much the same in the US. Even those doing webdev. Non-Windows is still very outlier.
Companies usually buy base models.
Apple is also struggling with supply chain, as M1 is still prominent. Another feature of this issue is that because of their parsimonious storage configuration and linkage of M2 chip and storage, upgrades are nuts - it costs as much as an iPhone to get a storage upgrade that is like $100 with commodity SSD storage.
Apple is also struggling with supply chain, as M1 is still prominent. Another feature of this issue is that because of their parsimonious storage configuration and linkage of M2 chip and storage, upgrades are nuts - it costs as much as an iPhone to get a storage upgrade that is like $100 with commodity SSD storage.
>upgrades are nuts - it costs as much as an iPhone to get a storage upgrade that is like $100 with commodity SSD storage.
I generally agree that Apple's SSD and RAM upgrades are too expensive. I'd like them to be cheaper.
However, I'd like to point out that Apple's SSDs have built-in protection against data-loss from power loss which is usually an enterprise SSD feature. Also, Apple uses LPDDR5 on their Macs which are quite a bit more expensive than DDR4/DDR5. In addition, there's some evidence that Apple's LPDDR5 is actually not off the shelf and is specialized specifically for Apple.[0]
That said, yea I think Apple is a bit stingy with SSD and RAM upgrades.
[0]https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/24gb-macbook-air-m2-ram...
I generally agree that Apple's SSD and RAM upgrades are too expensive. I'd like them to be cheaper.
However, I'd like to point out that Apple's SSDs have built-in protection against data-loss from power loss which is usually an enterprise SSD feature. Also, Apple uses LPDDR5 on their Macs which are quite a bit more expensive than DDR4/DDR5. In addition, there's some evidence that Apple's LPDDR5 is actually not off the shelf and is specialized specifically for Apple.[0]
That said, yea I think Apple is a bit stingy with SSD and RAM upgrades.
[0]https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/24gb-macbook-air-m2-ram...
> Apple's SSDs have built-in protection against data-loss from power loss which is usually an enterprise SSD feature.
It's a bit arguable. On Macos the well-known operation 'fsync' which exists for the sole purpose of committing files to durable storage doesn't protect files against data loss if there's power loss. You can ask for data to be committed more durably through a Macos-specific API, in which case those Apple SSDs are a lot slower than other good SSDs at doing this.
As most software uses 'fsync' to durably commit files, that stored data is not protected against power loss for some time. VMs either use the equivalent operation to implement filesystem barriers, or the very slow but more durable Macos-specific operation. Either way, these are not great SSDs for protection against data loss on power failure.
As measured by Asahi Linux folks:
"Apple's custom NVMes are amazingly fast – if you don't care about data integrity" (https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1494213855387734019 / https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/ssd-flash-storage-in-ma... / https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30370551)
"Well, this is unfortunate. It turns out Apple's custom NVMe drives are amazingly fast - if you don't care about data integrity. If you do, they drop down to HDD performance. Thread."
"For a while, we've noticed that random write performance with fsync (data integrity) on Asahi Linux (and also on Linux on T2 Macs) was terrible. As in 46 IOPS terrible. That's slower than many modern HDDs. We thought we were missing something, since this didn't happen on macOS." [Except it does happen on Macos when the equivalant API is used.]
It's a bit arguable. On Macos the well-known operation 'fsync' which exists for the sole purpose of committing files to durable storage doesn't protect files against data loss if there's power loss. You can ask for data to be committed more durably through a Macos-specific API, in which case those Apple SSDs are a lot slower than other good SSDs at doing this.
As most software uses 'fsync' to durably commit files, that stored data is not protected against power loss for some time. VMs either use the equivalent operation to implement filesystem barriers, or the very slow but more durable Macos-specific operation. Either way, these are not great SSDs for protection against data loss on power failure.
As measured by Asahi Linux folks:
"Apple's custom NVMes are amazingly fast – if you don't care about data integrity" (https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1494213855387734019 / https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/ssd-flash-storage-in-ma... / https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30370551)
"Well, this is unfortunate. It turns out Apple's custom NVMe drives are amazingly fast - if you don't care about data integrity. If you do, they drop down to HDD performance. Thread."
"For a while, we've noticed that random write performance with fsync (data integrity) on Asahi Linux (and also on Linux on T2 Macs) was terrible. As in 46 IOPS terrible. That's slower than many modern HDDs. We thought we were missing something, since this didn't happen on macOS." [Except it does happen on Macos when the equivalant API is used.]
I know I would, and I dare say most people are the same, prefer to have the option for 3% lower memory bandwidth in exchange for 4x more memory. There’s no justification for Apple’s memory prices.
Where do you get that "3% lower memory bandwidth" figure from? LPDDR5 is running at 6400 MT/s on at least Apple and Intel platforms, and the fastest DDR5 SODIMMs I've seen so far are 5600MT/s: 12.5% slower, assuming equal bus width (only true for the base M1/2 processors).
3%, 12% Potato, potato. It’s a small spec performance difference for a huge price difference.
Meanwhile, for actual real-world workloads, not spilling to swap (because you have enough memory) will result in real-world performance that is many times (even an order of magnitude) better. Even with Apples blazing fast SSDs.
Oh, and you can also spec a cheaper SSD because you don’t need one that can take a bajillion writes (because you aren’t treating your SSD as memory). AND the cheaper SSD will last longer too.
In short, Apple could spec cheaper components AND get better real world performance by simply shipping computers that have enough memory.
Edit: also 3% comes from shipping the absolute fasted DDR5 modules vs the second fasted DDR5.
Meanwhile, for actual real-world workloads, not spilling to swap (because you have enough memory) will result in real-world performance that is many times (even an order of magnitude) better. Even with Apples blazing fast SSDs.
Oh, and you can also spec a cheaper SSD because you don’t need one that can take a bajillion writes (because you aren’t treating your SSD as memory). AND the cheaper SSD will last longer too.
In short, Apple could spec cheaper components AND get better real world performance by simply shipping computers that have enough memory.
Edit: also 3% comes from shipping the absolute fasted DDR5 modules vs the second fasted DDR5.
Sure, that's 3%, but what about shipping 2x, 4x, and 8x as wide memory systems, largely enabled by not using industry standard dimms.
3%?
M2 = 100GB/sec M2 pro = 200GB/sec M2 max = 400GB/sec M1 Extreme = 800GB/sec.
Most x86-64 laptops and desktops are in the 60-80GB/sec range. Some desktop or server only chip (threadripper, epyc, Xeons, a few intel workstation chips) have 150 or 300GB/sec.
400GB/sec vs 80GB/sec is quite a bit more than 3%, and is available in the mbp 14" or mbp 16".
M2 = 100GB/sec M2 pro = 200GB/sec M2 max = 400GB/sec M1 Extreme = 800GB/sec.
Most x86-64 laptops and desktops are in the 60-80GB/sec range. Some desktop or server only chip (threadripper, epyc, Xeons, a few intel workstation chips) have 150 or 300GB/sec.
400GB/sec vs 80GB/sec is quite a bit more than 3%, and is available in the mbp 14" or mbp 16".
That’s because Apple Silicon has a stupid-wide memory bus. It has little/nothing to do with the characteristics of the memory chips shipped in the box. They just put more modules in parallel than on x86.
Apple could ship cheaper memory modules with the same stupid-wide bus and achieve nearly the same performance for a fraction of the cost.
And that’s what I want. Give me 4x as much DDR4 on the same 1024 bit wide bus, and I’d be happy.
Apple could ship cheaper memory modules with the same stupid-wide bus and achieve nearly the same performance for a fraction of the cost.
And that’s what I want. Give me 4x as much DDR4 on the same 1024 bit wide bus, and I’d be happy.
Stupid wide? Pins, memory controllers, and traces (and layers) on motherboards aren't cheap. Apple just decided that the paying memory bandwidth was worth it. Is there some reason why you think the extra memory bandwidth was stupid?
Sure it's easy to ask for 1024 bit wide memory bus, but it's not cheap. Done with the traditional x86-64 method you'll need two 280 watt CPUs (a few $k each), on a $1k motherboard, with 24 dimms, a 1kw power supply, ear plugs, and at least $10k. The minimum physical size is going to be substantial since you need two large CPU sockets (6096 pins each), 24 dimm sockets, and of course a substantial number of fans, dimms, and power supply. Even managing airflow over 800 watts or so of chips isn't going to be easy, cheap, or quiet.
Because of the above size, cost, noise, and heat it's targeted at enterprise and cloud folks with the related cost, service contract, and sales pipelines.
Or you could buy an Apple studio and hide it somewhere, you'll likely not be able to find it by listening for it.
Sure it's easy to ask for 1024 bit wide memory bus, but it's not cheap. Done with the traditional x86-64 method you'll need two 280 watt CPUs (a few $k each), on a $1k motherboard, with 24 dimms, a 1kw power supply, ear plugs, and at least $10k. The minimum physical size is going to be substantial since you need two large CPU sockets (6096 pins each), 24 dimm sockets, and of course a substantial number of fans, dimms, and power supply. Even managing airflow over 800 watts or so of chips isn't going to be easy, cheap, or quiet.
Because of the above size, cost, noise, and heat it's targeted at enterprise and cloud folks with the related cost, service contract, and sales pipelines.
Or you could buy an Apple studio and hide it somewhere, you'll likely not be able to find it by listening for it.
I see it like cars, mass produced standard models are way cheaper than the ones with all the extras and whistles and what not
>Apple is also struggling with supply chain
Not anymore. They actually had to cut back M2 orders due to slow sales. Nvidia and AMD and others have also been cutting back orders for the same reason.
The consumer tech supply chain is no longer blocked like ti was during the pandemic.
Not anymore. They actually had to cut back M2 orders due to slow sales. Nvidia and AMD and others have also been cutting back orders for the same reason.
The consumer tech supply chain is no longer blocked like ti was during the pandemic.
$100 with commodity SSD storage.
You answered your own question there. Apple doesn't used "commodity" SSD storage. Apple's SSDs are enterprise-grade, not bottom-of-the-barrel commodity parts.
You answered your own question there. Apple doesn't used "commodity" SSD storage. Apple's SSDs are enterprise-grade, not bottom-of-the-barrel commodity parts.
Apple SSDs perform no better than commodity SSDs that cost 20% as much. And Apple is just buying flash chips from someone else. There’s no “apple silicon” equivalent for SSDs.
Sort of, a traditional SSD is a combination of flash storage and a flash controller. Apple puts the flash controller inside their apple silicon.
"You answered your own question there. Apple doesn't used "commodity" SSD storage."
what a weaird thing to say...
So.. tell us.. where does apple get its SSD's if it is not "commodity"? Do they have their own SSD factory?
Then you write "Apple's SSDs are enterprise-grade"... So like "commodity" right? Meaning others can buy "enterprise grade" SSD's and upgrade their non-apple laptops wtih them if they wanted to?
what a weaird thing to say...
So.. tell us.. where does apple get its SSD's if it is not "commodity"? Do they have their own SSD factory?
Then you write "Apple's SSDs are enterprise-grade"... So like "commodity" right? Meaning others can buy "enterprise grade" SSD's and upgrade their non-apple laptops wtih them if they wanted to?
I just bought a higher end M2 SSD part for my kids gaming rig for less than what apple is charging for an upgrade.
probably don't need SLC with 300% redundancy in my laptop
I wonder if we haven't hit the top of the bell curve.
Up until the M1 transition, the macbook 15" (and then 16") were already the defacto machine for any dev in most companies. I had colleagues who had to justify they could use Dell's linux laptops.
As of now it's more of a split, with those who stay on mac, those who move to "gaming" laptops if they rely on x86 or need GPU power, linux laptops which are now fully mature, and those who moved to machines like Lenovo's yoga line or MS Surface. Basically Apple moving away from Intel, freezing the form factor while giving the middle finger to GPU intensive apps opened the door to many other options.
Up until the M1 transition, the macbook 15" (and then 16") were already the defacto machine for any dev in most companies. I had colleagues who had to justify they could use Dell's linux laptops.
As of now it's more of a split, with those who stay on mac, those who move to "gaming" laptops if they rely on x86 or need GPU power, linux laptops which are now fully mature, and those who moved to machines like Lenovo's yoga line or MS Surface. Basically Apple moving away from Intel, freezing the form factor while giving the middle finger to GPU intensive apps opened the door to many other options.
the big technological leap with M1 convinced a lot of customers to buy the new Macs
Building on this — A good number of people who planned to buy new Macs (myself included) held off on those purchases until the M1 came out.
Call it the "Osborne Bounce" — A bit of tech is announced too early, and the anticipation reduces normal sales volumes until it's available. At that time, there's a huge spike in sales, followed by numbers being depressed because everyone already has the shiny new thing.
Something like the Osborne Effect, except Apple has the cash and product diversity to not go out of business while everyone holds on to their wallets.
Building on this — A good number of people who planned to buy new Macs (myself included) held off on those purchases until the M1 came out.
Call it the "Osborne Bounce" — A bit of tech is announced too early, and the anticipation reduces normal sales volumes until it's available. At that time, there's a huge spike in sales, followed by numbers being depressed because everyone already has the shiny new thing.
Something like the Osborne Effect, except Apple has the cash and product diversity to not go out of business while everyone holds on to their wallets.
Yup. I bought an M1 to replace an Intel mac that was less than two years old. I certainly don’t have any plans to replace the m1 that quickly. This isn’t a knock against the M2; the Intel to M1 leap was a very unusual situation.
I’d say there are multiple factors at play, one you pointed out being one of them.
The current downtrend has definitely played a role. Not online have companies laid off tens of thousands of employees they have also cut down hiring. In all likelihood these companies have excess of IT hardware inventory.
There’s also longitivtiy, my Mac from Nov 2018 is still going strong and I don’t think I’ll need to upgrade for at least 2 more years.
And finally let’s not forget the price. As good as M2 is I need to spend a bomb to get an M2 that can handle my workload. So I keep putting off the purchase.
The current downtrend has definitely played a role. Not online have companies laid off tens of thousands of employees they have also cut down hiring. In all likelihood these companies have excess of IT hardware inventory.
There’s also longitivtiy, my Mac from Nov 2018 is still going strong and I don’t think I’ll need to upgrade for at least 2 more years.
And finally let’s not forget the price. As good as M2 is I need to spend a bomb to get an M2 that can handle my workload. So I keep putting off the purchase.
I have the maxed out 2020 16" Macbook Pro, the last of the Intel ones. I really wanted to buy M1 and M2 one, and I have the means, but the existing one just works too well still for me to justify the expense to myself.
Also, when I go and finally buy one, I think I'll just won't need the maxed out version anymore, and will prioritise portability over power, so I'll pay less. Simply because of reports about how powerful M1/2 is.
Also, when I go and finally buy one, I think I'll just won't need the maxed out version anymore, and will prioritise portability over power, so I'll pay less. Simply because of reports about how powerful M1/2 is.
I’ve traded my 2017 maxed out MBP for an M2 Air. It’s insane. I don’t do video editing but lots of code compiling and the Air handles it without problems. Sure, the Pro would be even faster, so maybe I don’t know what I’m missing out on, but the Air is so crazy fast and the battery life so incredibly long, I have zero regrets on that purchase.
I’m in the camp of: I like the colors and cuteness of the air (I’m a guy for what it’s worth) but I always buy the pro ‘cuz, we’ll it’s “pro”.
It’s probably more economical to buy the air at a lower cost and replace it more frequently but I dislike the hassle of moving files (the cloud has simplified this a lot), but more recently I’m concerned about e-waste.
It’s probably more economical to buy the air at a lower cost and replace it more frequently but I dislike the hassle of moving files (the cloud has simplified this a lot), but more recently I’m concerned about e-waste.
Sell/trade your old hardware and there is no e-waste. Apple devices are great at keeping their value.
what is the long term viability of the MB Air’s components since it doesn’t have a fan / air circulation to diffuse heat?
Passive dissipation is enough to keep up since it runs cool. There is throttling that kicks in if you max the CPU for several minutes in a row.
I only just upgraded mine this past month, but I was still using a Macbook Pro from 2015 (not regularly, it finally was getting too annoying to use much after 8 years, but I have a Windows laptop also so I wasn't in a big hurry to upgrade).
Part of me kind of wishes I didn't though, that was a lot of money I dropped there, especially with all the layoffs (my company had their first layoff a week after I made the purchase also).
Part of me kind of wishes I didn't though, that was a lot of money I dropped there, especially with all the layoffs (my company had their first layoff a week after I made the purchase also).
I think a lot of the 13" buyers will end up upgrading as they sound pretty tired about the lack of dual-monitor support.
I've seen a lot Linux based deeper machines now that docker has become huge.
Still using my 2013 MBPr, no reason to upgrade yet, runs the last non cloud versions of Adobe so i'm not spending $50/mo on software I already own. I bought a M1 mini for a desktop at home, no reason to upgrade that either, but switched to using Inkscape for design work on it as Adobe wants monthly fees now and I ain't doing that. Honestly looking for older Apple computers so I can still use non-cloud Adobe software.
second this - purchased and use non-cloud Adobe software, BBEdit, the nice terminal apps and a few minor things, on hardware that is at least six years old. I look for good condition older Macs and have a few of those that I keep safely.
Really big aversion to the "phone like" OS, secret changes to the filesystem, app-store apps, increasingly intrusive phoning home and other "modern improvements"
Really big aversion to the "phone like" OS, secret changes to the filesystem, app-store apps, increasingly intrusive phoning home and other "modern improvements"
Whilst I agree with your sentiment wait until you try a gently used M1 Macbook Air one day. After a tawdry love affair you'll want to toss the hot noisy intel machines in the garbage .. at least I did, anyway
Maybe. Not everyone does work where more horsepower does anything useful. Still coding away daily on my 10 year old MBP. Only maintenance I've done was install a new $60 battery 2 years ago that any non-apple specific computer repair shop could install in 10 minutes. I'll upgrade when 1) the machine dies or 2) it doesn't actually do something I need it to and I become less efficient
It's not just about horsepower it's about battery life and thermals. Especially those of us living in a hot climate not typing on a space heater is a big deal
no, I try to use desktop machines mostly
As 'free money' is sucked out of the system (by reversing ultra low interest rates and QE), people are going to focus their spending on what they actually need - which often is not an Apple product.
or a PC in general:
> Global PC shipments tumbled to 56.9 million in the first quarter, down 29% from the same period a year earlier
https://www.wsj.com/articles/pc-shipments-fall-29-led-by-dro...
> Global PC shipments tumbled to 56.9 million in the first quarter, down 29% from the same period a year earlier
https://www.wsj.com/articles/pc-shipments-fall-29-led-by-dro...
Yeah, that's my bigger worry: that "desktop" (and then "laptop") are going to become niche platforms that only old-timers use.
I dread our only-phone future.
I dread our only-phone future.
> (...) "desktop" (and then "laptop") are going to become niche platforms (...)
Will desktop and laptops become niche, or are smartphones/tablets finding a far broader and popular market?
You can grab your smartphone and even tablet while you're riding the subway/train/bus/whatever, but you would never use a desktop I'm that scenario. Same goes for the line in your supermarket, a quick trip to the restroom, during lunch, etc.
The smartphone didn't replaced the desktop. It replaced the newspaper/magazine/mobile phone
The truth of the matter is that the smartphone form factor is far more suited for a broader range of usages than your desktop/laptop, and the combination of those use patterns with technology limitations do warrant specialized app life cycles and UX patterns. Desktop/laptops are suited for entirely different use patterns.
Will desktop and laptops become niche, or are smartphones/tablets finding a far broader and popular market?
You can grab your smartphone and even tablet while you're riding the subway/train/bus/whatever, but you would never use a desktop I'm that scenario. Same goes for the line in your supermarket, a quick trip to the restroom, during lunch, etc.
The smartphone didn't replaced the desktop. It replaced the newspaper/magazine/mobile phone
The truth of the matter is that the smartphone form factor is far more suited for a broader range of usages than your desktop/laptop, and the combination of those use patterns with technology limitations do warrant specialized app life cycles and UX patterns. Desktop/laptops are suited for entirely different use patterns.
To be fair, a Bluetooth keyboard/ mouse , plus HDMI out gets you to what most people use computers for.
I'm more afraid of laptops turning into phones, via Microsoft Store/ App Store, scary "unknown publisher" warnings, etc. It's getting harder and harder to run what you want on computers.
I'm more afraid of laptops turning into phones, via Microsoft Store/ App Store, scary "unknown publisher" warnings, etc. It's getting harder and harder to run what you want on computers.
Maybe we took our older generation's wisdom for granted.
If you could dock a phone and use it with a keyboard, mouse, and monitor, and it had all the software you used, whorls you still be worried? Microsoft did this with Continuum in windows phone 10, and iPadOS is trying to grow up to support more multitasking and a keyboard+mouse. It’s not too far of a leap that the iPhone could do the same thing. This would also be a lot cheaper than also purchasing a laptop.
I would be even more worried, because then they have a bigger excuse to kill off product lines for real computers.
The problems isn't just the form factor. It's primarily that phones and tablets are significantly dumbed down, closed, and more user hostile devices. Windows is already trending more toward the phone experience with dumbed down interfaces, forced updates, telemetry, and ads baked in and it has made it all but unusable. I want less of that, not more.
Computers need to work for, and be owned by, the user. We had that, and we're rapidly losing ground.
The problems isn't just the form factor. It's primarily that phones and tablets are significantly dumbed down, closed, and more user hostile devices. Windows is already trending more toward the phone experience with dumbed down interfaces, forced updates, telemetry, and ads baked in and it has made it all but unusable. I want less of that, not more.
Computers need to work for, and be owned by, the user. We had that, and we're rapidly losing ground.
Sure, that sounds fine on paper. But the problem would be that you can't install whatever you want on your iPhone. So iPhones would have to drastically open up before that becomes some kind of utopia. We want a future where people own their hardware, and going to a phones-only world currently wouldn't be a move in that direction.
I doubt they would let me get bored one day and figure out how the Bluetooth stack worked without being told “no, I really can’t be an iBeacon, get over it”.
Also, text editor and gcc is all I ever need. How many hoops would I have to jump through to get GPL programs unprohibited on iOS?
Also, text editor and gcc is all I ever need. How many hoops would I have to jump through to get GPL programs unprohibited on iOS?
I wanted to love that but it failed for me.
My desktop is a dedicated workstation machine that I want to be running even when I lug my phone around the house.
You can basically s/phone/laptop above and it still doesn't quite work for me. Doing it with a phone only makes it worse.
Maybe for some it can work, it just doesn't for me. I very much prefer the concept of continuity, where I have a number of devices that I can pickup, and whatever I want to do can be carried over in a transparent way across all of them, while having each device be the best at what it is, some able to do unique stuff and some having overlaps in functionality.
My desktop is a dedicated workstation machine that I want to be running even when I lug my phone around the house.
You can basically s/phone/laptop above and it still doesn't quite work for me. Doing it with a phone only makes it worse.
Maybe for some it can work, it just doesn't for me. I very much prefer the concept of continuity, where I have a number of devices that I can pickup, and whatever I want to do can be carried over in a transparent way across all of them, while having each device be the best at what it is, some able to do unique stuff and some having overlaps in functionality.
Weird having an insightful factual beginning of a sentence just to conclude with weak and hugely incomplete speculation ignoring the bulk of the picture (Apple's all other products, what actually needed actually entails, ...).
Apple have been wildly successful in selling Rolls-Royces to the masses. In pretty much all categories they've entered, Apple are considered to be the premium brand.
However the masses generally don't need the level of engineering that Apple products typically feature - people have been compelled into forking out for it in order to status match with their peers (e.g. the green/blue text thing). Now times are tight, the Rolls stay on the forecourts.
(I love their design, engineering and attention to detail - Bauhaus for nerd stuff - and their mission to bring high quality to all. But I object to their walled garden, their cultishness, lack of configurability and, yes, the inordinate waste of natural/engineering resources going in to make what should be commodity devices, coupled with sucking money out of people who really can't afford it)
However the masses generally don't need the level of engineering that Apple products typically feature - people have been compelled into forking out for it in order to status match with their peers (e.g. the green/blue text thing). Now times are tight, the Rolls stay on the forecourts.
(I love their design, engineering and attention to detail - Bauhaus for nerd stuff - and their mission to bring high quality to all. But I object to their walled garden, their cultishness, lack of configurability and, yes, the inordinate waste of natural/engineering resources going in to make what should be commodity devices, coupled with sucking money out of people who really can't afford it)
The point was that other Apple products than Mac sales not change out of global trends, also not much. Hence the root comment about people going away from Apple products is factually wrong.
(I can agree with several other of your auxiliary topic comments)
(I can agree with several other of your auxiliary topic comments)
I mean people do need faster processes, and Apple delivered that.
> Apple have been wildly successful in selling Rolls-Royces to the masses
This analogy doesn’t make any sense: a Rolls Royce comes with a significant price premium, whereas Apple products tend to cost about the same as equivalent quality PC/Android devices, often cheaper in the M1 era, and most of the cost factors directly benefit the core function of the device whereas what makes a Rolls cost an order of magnitude more tends to be a lot of bespoke luxury details which don’t help you get somewhere faster, safer, or proportionately more comfortably. If you want a car comparison, I’d go with Audi/BMW – premium but still a mass market manufactured good which marks you as at most upper middle class.
Also, you’re not doing your argument any favors by repeating Google’s marketing push about blue/green text message colors. Green was the original color on the iPhone 1 and hasn’t changed. What did change was Google trying to make a play to get governments to bail them out of their decision to throw the messaging business to competitors like Facebook. They have plenty of pricey PR people getting paid to dissemble about that, there’s no need to contribute your time pro bono.
This analogy doesn’t make any sense: a Rolls Royce comes with a significant price premium, whereas Apple products tend to cost about the same as equivalent quality PC/Android devices, often cheaper in the M1 era, and most of the cost factors directly benefit the core function of the device whereas what makes a Rolls cost an order of magnitude more tends to be a lot of bespoke luxury details which don’t help you get somewhere faster, safer, or proportionately more comfortably. If you want a car comparison, I’d go with Audi/BMW – premium but still a mass market manufactured good which marks you as at most upper middle class.
Also, you’re not doing your argument any favors by repeating Google’s marketing push about blue/green text message colors. Green was the original color on the iPhone 1 and hasn’t changed. What did change was Google trying to make a play to get governments to bail them out of their decision to throw the messaging business to competitors like Facebook. They have plenty of pricey PR people getting paid to dissemble about that, there’s no need to contribute your time pro bono.
All I know about the green/blue text is the (possibly not real) trope of 'Ugh green [or is it blue?] text! I don't date poors who don't have an iPhone!'
At some point there was a big deal being made about Google taking your data and so 'stealing your mind' (can't disagree tbh). However, in attempting to monetize your base urges, I would respond that Apple is trying to steal your soul!
(no longer any affiliation to either company, though I was in Cupertino for a bit in a previous life)
At some point there was a big deal being made about Google taking your data and so 'stealing your mind' (can't disagree tbh). However, in attempting to monetize your base urges, I would respond that Apple is trying to steal your soul!
(no longer any affiliation to either company, though I was in Cupertino for a bit in a previous life)
The green/blue text thing is like kids getting ostracized for not having the right sneakers in school – it’s happened but it’s just telling you that terrible people exist, and it’s the perfect clickbait story for people to shake their heads at. The reason why it stayed in the news was that last year Google made a big lobbying push trying to get governments to force Apple to open the service to Android since Google pushed users away years ago and are now recognizing that nobody is coming back.
Well in the end nobody (outside of the US?) uses text messages anymore (at least, not socially). It's all Whatsapp, FB Messenger, Telegram, Signal... (honestly I can't keep up)
Not to forget the recession that we may or may not be past. Repo rates might be one of the earlier signals of a recession, but I'd wager that declining boutique tech sales would occur even earlier (even if they are only reported later).
I think it has a lot more to do with everyone who was considering an upgrade jumping on the m1. Apple's macbook pipeline is now dry since most of their customers now have a new computer.
I think that’s especially true this far into the pandemic telework shift: that both forced new purchases for a ton of people who had desktops in the office and also pushed more work into cloud services for ease of sharing. Neither of those are absolutes of course but think they line up well with your observation, further reducing the number of people who think that they need a new computer to be more productive.
My personal explanation would be that everyone went out and bought M-series laptops. The end of the rush coupled with a slowdown resulted in a significant YoY drop.
ITT: A bunch of nerds who refuse the accept the role of inflation and somehow don't realize that 99% of Apple's customers don't know what an M1 is or what the difference is to an Intel CPU. As if Apple consumers haven't always bought their products even if the new line-up isn't a huge upgrade from the previous year. No, suddenly out of nowhere, everything has changed and consumers have all collectively realized they don't need the latest and greatest.
Are you fucking kidding me?
Are you fucking kidding me?
> 99% of Apple's customers don't know what an M1 is or what the difference is to an Intel CPU.
I don't think that actually matters at all to most Apple customers. What I do think matters to most is the advertising that went into it that turned "Apple Chips" and "Apple Silicon" into phrases people actually using outside of tech circles.
They wanted one because it was new and different, regardless of what those differences were.
I don't think that actually matters at all to most Apple customers. What I do think matters to most is the advertising that went into it that turned "Apple Chips" and "Apple Silicon" into phrases people actually using outside of tech circles.
They wanted one because it was new and different, regardless of what those differences were.
Why have this level of disdain for the mental capabilities of a huge subset of the population? Why even say this out loud if you must think it?
99% of Apple's customers can certainly recognize "it's a fuckton faster than my previous laptop" when they see it. Apple Silicon is across the board perceivably faster than any previous Macs.
99% of Apple's customers can certainly recognize "it's a fuckton faster than my previous laptop" when they see it. Apple Silicon is across the board perceivably faster than any previous Macs.
> Why have this level of disdain for the mental capabilities of a huge subset of the population? Why even say this out loud if you must think it?
I don't have disdain for people's mental capabilities. I'm saying that for Apple fans the chance to own something that the company marketed as 'Chip by Apple' computers there's a really big draw. They've developed a market that is eager to consume their brand more than the technology itself. I don't think those people are dumb because of that, there's a lot to like about Apple's gear.
My point was rather that the technological aspects of it aren't really going to play into it as much and haven't for a long time. You could see this in the mid-90s to early 00s era Macs. People happily bought slower less capable systems because they looked good and they preferred the OS over everything else.
> 99% of Apple's customers can certainly recognize "it's a fuckton faster than my previous laptop" when they see it.
I'd actually be surprised if that were true since I don't believe the same about users of other systems either. If you eliminate the "new OS" effect I'd be amazed if it were anything above around 25%, if that.
Now, had you suggested that it doesn't heat up anywhere near as much or some other obviously perceptible thing then sure.
I don't have disdain for people's mental capabilities. I'm saying that for Apple fans the chance to own something that the company marketed as 'Chip by Apple' computers there's a really big draw. They've developed a market that is eager to consume their brand more than the technology itself. I don't think those people are dumb because of that, there's a lot to like about Apple's gear.
My point was rather that the technological aspects of it aren't really going to play into it as much and haven't for a long time. You could see this in the mid-90s to early 00s era Macs. People happily bought slower less capable systems because they looked good and they preferred the OS over everything else.
> 99% of Apple's customers can certainly recognize "it's a fuckton faster than my previous laptop" when they see it.
I'd actually be surprised if that were true since I don't believe the same about users of other systems either. If you eliminate the "new OS" effect I'd be amazed if it were anything above around 25%, if that.
Now, had you suggested that it doesn't heat up anywhere near as much or some other obviously perceptible thing then sure.
It's not as easy to see, when you take their crusty old OS that hasn't been wiped in 10 years, and compare it to a fresh installed new PC.
People are often blown away at how fast their old machines are when they are just wiped and reloaded.
People are often blown away at how fast their old machines are when they are just wiped and reloaded.
You don't need to know what M1 is, what you need to know is that Apple new product is amazing and fast and everybody that used it would tell everybody else how good it was.
I'd be interested in a Mac once Linux is viable on it. OSX feels outright hostile to power users at this point.
Apple hardware has a lot more capability than their software allows you to use. If Apple was interested in growing their market share further, there are a lot of gains are to be had in supporting non Apple software platforms on Apple hardware. Linux is an obvious one because of Asahi Linux. They've done a lot of the hard work already despite Apple not lifting a finger. Imagine how well that could work with a little Apple support. Even just unofficially. Share a bit of documentation, toss in a few developer resources, etc. Not that hard.
Making sure their CPU/GPUs work perfectly with e.g. Steam and making sure that game studios are able to target Apple hardware would make a lot of difference for their appeal to gamers. Steam, of course, is also starting to work in Asahi Linux as well. There is really no good technical reason why that couldn't work on Mac OS natively.
Of course the same reason that this is a good idea also means Apple won't do it because they seem to prefer controlling their software ecosystem at the cost of failing to grow it. So Metal is nice but completely useless for gaming, or indeed most consumer focused use cases involving 3D (except for the Apple sanctioned ones). OpenCL/OpenGL barely work at this point. Forget about vulkan or directx. The whole AR/VR thing is perpetually not happening at all on Apple hardware. Until such time that they choose to release some Apple branded hardware for this of course. They are also not really investing in making their AI optimized hardware work for mainstream AI developers. Etc.
Anyway, Apple could make a really nice gaming focused console based on e.g. the mac mini. Not that hard. It would not require a lot of changes. Basically beef up the Apple TV UI, make sure games actually can be ported to it, and job done. Not that hard. But as long as their OS is locked down and developer hostile, none of that will happen.
Making sure their CPU/GPUs work perfectly with e.g. Steam and making sure that game studios are able to target Apple hardware would make a lot of difference for their appeal to gamers. Steam, of course, is also starting to work in Asahi Linux as well. There is really no good technical reason why that couldn't work on Mac OS natively.
Of course the same reason that this is a good idea also means Apple won't do it because they seem to prefer controlling their software ecosystem at the cost of failing to grow it. So Metal is nice but completely useless for gaming, or indeed most consumer focused use cases involving 3D (except for the Apple sanctioned ones). OpenCL/OpenGL barely work at this point. Forget about vulkan or directx. The whole AR/VR thing is perpetually not happening at all on Apple hardware. Until such time that they choose to release some Apple branded hardware for this of course. They are also not really investing in making their AI optimized hardware work for mainstream AI developers. Etc.
Anyway, Apple could make a really nice gaming focused console based on e.g. the mac mini. Not that hard. It would not require a lot of changes. Basically beef up the Apple TV UI, make sure games actually can be ported to it, and job done. Not that hard. But as long as their OS is locked down and developer hostile, none of that will happen.
> It would not require a lot of changes.
It would require Apple to stop being Apple. Give up their App Store revenue (Steam) and give up their proprietary 3D API in favor of a standard? Might as well ask for a Start button.
It would require Apple to stop being Apple. Give up their App Store revenue (Steam) and give up their proprietary 3D API in favor of a standard? Might as well ask for a Start button.
Not really. Supporting standard 3D API on that hardware wouldn't be that hard. They don't have that much different hardware that supporting a driver for it would be that difficult.
> Give up their App Store revenue
They are not giving up anything they currently earn, they would be adding sales of hardware and games.
They could make a deal with Steam or make their own steam and make it easy for Games to port their games to it. They could likely find some way to monetize this.
> Give up their App Store revenue
They are not giving up anything they currently earn, they would be adding sales of hardware and games.
They could make a deal with Steam or make their own steam and make it easy for Games to port their games to it. They could likely find some way to monetize this.
> wouldn't be that hard.
What are you basing that on? They’ve spent a lot of time talking about how optimized the hardware and software are for each other, why are you so sure that getting equivalent performance and efficiency would be easy? Consider how trash MoltenVK is compared to Metal. About the best you can say is that it technically works.
> not giving up anything they currently earn
That’s not how Apple thinks. If they cut someone else in, especially a behemoth like Steam, they’re signing away their ability to do Apple Arcade for MacOS in the future. Look at the whole Kindle vs Apple Books fiasco, they’re never going to let someone else in the pool again. They won’t even let the XCloud game streaming app on.
What are you basing that on? They’ve spent a lot of time talking about how optimized the hardware and software are for each other, why are you so sure that getting equivalent performance and efficiency would be easy? Consider how trash MoltenVK is compared to Metal. About the best you can say is that it technically works.
> not giving up anything they currently earn
That’s not how Apple thinks. If they cut someone else in, especially a behemoth like Steam, they’re signing away their ability to do Apple Arcade for MacOS in the future. Look at the whole Kindle vs Apple Books fiasco, they’re never going to let someone else in the pool again. They won’t even let the XCloud game streaming app on.
Because with very few developers Asahi Linux people have made a huge amount of progress. Apple could have 10x as many people working on it and it would be a tiny drop in the bucket. Even if you lose some performance, its still worth it to run Vulcan software.
> never going to let someone else in the pool again
Then make a proper games platform that is easy to target for games that are already on steam.
> never going to let someone else in the pool again
Then make a proper games platform that is easy to target for games that are already on steam.
Not sure what your definition of a power user is. But I have root access, can install every UNIX package under the sun with homebrew and can disable all security protections as needed.
I also have a Linux workstation and I can't name anything it can do that my MacBook can't other than playing with niche technologies e.g. NVMEoF, Octane.
I also have a Linux workstation and I can't name anything it can do that my MacBook can't other than playing with niche technologies e.g. NVMEoF, Octane.
Can I replace the window manager with i3/sway?
>can install every UNIX package under the sun with homebrew
Even this one? https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/drivers/unix/
Even this one? https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/drivers/unix/
Does it even use a nvidia chip?
Their stuff doesn’t work with my AMD APU and the oppression I feel is oppressive.
Their stuff doesn’t work with my AMD APU and the oppression I feel is oppressive.
It will install just fine on your AMD APU, it just won't do anything until you plug in Nvidia hardware.
s/power users/OS tinkerers. Not everybody who tinkers with their OS is a power user, and there are power users that (more or less) only care about how well Excel runs.
I also think “feels hostile” is the right expression. Apple isn’t hostile to OS tinkerers, but has different priorities, and doesn’t cater for them as much as they would want.
I also think “feels hostile” is the right expression. Apple isn’t hostile to OS tinkerers, but has different priorities, and doesn’t cater for them as much as they would want.
I've used a Mac in my previous job and it was OK experience. The M1's hardware is truly great (I bought one for myself as well, since I didn't have a laptop at the time) and I like the portability. There are a lot of smaller features that I really like, but the overall experience for development is just not there. I use mostly my desktop setup for dev work. I can attach different machines to my monitor or use picture in picture or side by side (49" ultrawide). Last year I was back on Linux for a few months to see if that was going to be "the year of the Linux desktop" for me. I've done this every year for a few months for the past decade. However, unfortunately yet again I've went back to Windows 10. The same nagging issues with things just randomly stopping working on Linux keep showing up after time. Ten years of the same thing. Windows (with WSL) despite all of its flaws and bullshit seems to be the best OS for development. I find that very sad to be honest.
I'm switching back to Windows after 5 yrs on Linux. There are many things Linux is not just better at, but so many things windows just can't do (because devs haven't bother to make it work). Do you find that wsl is all you need to run all the dev tooling and software for development, or do you have to spin up a Linux VM?
I do most of my back-end development inside WSL (C#/C++, some JS). There's a way to run GUI Linux apps from WSL as well (for example GitKraken which I use on both Windows and from WSL) which is awesome - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/tutorials/gui-....
Docker Desktop on Windows has full support inside WSL and integrates seamlessly i.e. can access running containers on your Win install from WSL without issues etc.
One thing I have to highlight is that you shouldn't do dev from WSL inside windows folders (my main work folders are under WSL's /home). File access is very slow, If you want to do that I think you can go for WSL 1, not 2, but I won't bother honestly. Just use WSL2 and do your work on Linux folders.
For Windows I use PowerToys extensively to bring window layouts and stacking the way I want via FancyZones. It's not exactly like the window tiling managers you'll find on Linux, but it does the job well enough.
Docker Desktop on Windows has full support inside WSL and integrates seamlessly i.e. can access running containers on your Win install from WSL without issues etc.
One thing I have to highlight is that you shouldn't do dev from WSL inside windows folders (my main work folders are under WSL's /home). File access is very slow, If you want to do that I think you can go for WSL 1, not 2, but I won't bother honestly. Just use WSL2 and do your work on Linux folders.
For Windows I use PowerToys extensively to bring window layouts and stacking the way I want via FancyZones. It's not exactly like the window tiling managers you'll find on Linux, but it does the job well enough.
I've used Macbooks as my primary system since 2008. No idea what you're about.
Though there is one decidedly hostile decision: effing XCode Commandline Tools.
Though there is one decidedly hostile decision: effing XCode Commandline Tools.
I'd be interested if I could run Windows. I vastly prefer the Windows OS experience to OSX. I got a MacBook for work and tried it for five months and exchanged it, very happy with the choice.
Once upon a time, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MkLinux
I rather use the NeXTSTEP heritage.
I rather use the NeXTSTEP heritage.
I made the jump a couple days back, and Asahi Linux for M1's is great, it's not everything fully supported, but nice to have alongside mac for a more work OS
I am curious what examples of power usage you are thinking of.
Their EU pricing is just insane
Just looked at it, and it certainly is. I mean Apple was always more expensive, but the difference is just huge now.
For me 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD is kind of the minimum (I would buy 32GB RAM if I can get it for a fair price). I can get that for less than 1000 EUR as a Windows/Linux notebook with reasonably good quality. For Apple it seems to start at 2300 EUR with these specs, and that is for relatively small screen sizes which doesn't match my preference. Of course there are many more differences here, but this seems to be kind of the price floor for reasonable specs.
For me 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD is kind of the minimum (I would buy 32GB RAM if I can get it for a fair price). I can get that for less than 1000 EUR as a Windows/Linux notebook with reasonably good quality. For Apple it seems to start at 2300 EUR with these specs, and that is for relatively small screen sizes which doesn't match my preference. Of course there are many more differences here, but this seems to be kind of the price floor for reasonable specs.
> I can get that for less than 1000 EUR
Please by all means provide a link.
Often when you see these sort of comparisons it's low spec screens, memory + SSDs.
Please by all means provide a link.
Often when you see these sort of comparisons it's low spec screens, memory + SSDs.
https://geizhals.de/lenovo-ideapad-5-pro-16ach6-storm-grey-8...
That's the one I have, or at least similar. It's obviously not the same as a MacBook, but the screen is a 16:10 high-resolution, though not Retina one with good quality.
People care about different things, and Full HD screens at ~14-15" is perfectly fine for many people. And you can get that for even cheaper than what I mentioned.
That's the one I have, or at least similar. It's obviously not the same as a MacBook, but the screen is a 16:10 high-resolution, though not Retina one with good quality.
People care about different things, and Full HD screens at ~14-15" is perfectly fine for many people. And you can get that for even cheaper than what I mentioned.
Pretty substantial difference in CPU performance.
MacBook Pro 14: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/21032882
AMD Ryzen 7: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/21032882
MacBook Pro 14: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/21032882
AMD Ryzen 7: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/21032882
Fwiw both your links are the same.
Yes, I have no idea why people are comparing apple's excellent hardware to gaming laptops with wobbly hinges and inefficient CPUs that are intended for different purpose altogether.
All tech in Europe is costlier. Check Dell 2023 XPS lineup and compare to macbooks - it won't get come out cheaper.
All tech in Europe is costlier. Check Dell 2023 XPS lineup and compare to macbooks - it won't get come out cheaper.
Hmm, my gaming oriented laptop (not what I use it for) does not have wobbly hinges at all, and I find the aluminum on the macs far more susceptible to dings and crap than the hardshell of the PC laptop.
Here's one under 1000e: https://www.coolblue.nl/en/product/917297/asus-zenbook-14-um...
If you spend 1250e you can get oled screens which are nicer then apple
https://www.coolblue.nl/en/product/904043/asus-zenbook-14-um...
If you spend 1250e you can get oled screens which are nicer then apple
https://www.coolblue.nl/en/product/904043/asus-zenbook-14-um...
Same issue I mentioned above. Significantly worse CPU:
Apple M2: https://browser.geekbench.com/search?k=v6_cpu&q=5900HX+&utf8...
Ryzen 9500HX: https://browser.geekbench.com/search?k=v6_cpu&q=m2&utf8=
Apple M2: https://browser.geekbench.com/search?k=v6_cpu&q=5900HX+&utf8...
Ryzen 9500HX: https://browser.geekbench.com/search?k=v6_cpu&q=m2&utf8=
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> 1080p screen
Not the same. 1080 would be unbearable compared to a MacBook pro screen at 14” (3024x1964).
Edit: the oled one has acceptable resolution. I don’t see any specs on the ssd though so it may be SATA junk. The problem with other manufacturers is that they aggressively skimp in all the places people don’t look. Part of what you get for the Apple tax is some assurance that’s not happening.
Not the same. 1080 would be unbearable compared to a MacBook pro screen at 14” (3024x1964).
Edit: the oled one has acceptable resolution. I don’t see any specs on the ssd though so it may be SATA junk. The problem with other manufacturers is that they aggressively skimp in all the places people don’t look. Part of what you get for the Apple tax is some assurance that’s not happening.
I can switch out the SSD easily on regular notebooks, and in most notebooks I bought I did that as it was easier to match the specs to what I want that way. I cannot do that on a MacBook, so the huge cost for larger RAM and SSD is a big disadvantage.
And we're not talking about a bit of money here, Macbooks with reasonable specs start at around double the cost of a better mainstream PC notebook.
And we're not talking about a bit of money here, Macbooks with reasonable specs start at around double the cost of a better mainstream PC notebook.
Apple is close to double the price though for an arguably worse display compared to the oled one.
So OP is right in that options are present that are cheaper and perhaps better for his use case.
edit: oled laptop comes comes with PM9A1 ssd which has 7GB reads, 5GB writes which is faster then Apple too (apple has 5GB reads, 4GB writes).
So OP is right in that options are present that are cheaper and perhaps better for his use case.
edit: oled laptop comes comes with PM9A1 ssd which has 7GB reads, 5GB writes which is faster then Apple too (apple has 5GB reads, 4GB writes).
> Part of what you get for the Apple tax is some assurance that’s not happening.
Oh boy. I suppose selling a "PC" (iMac, Mac Mini, etc) at desktop prices with laptop internals isn't skimping.
Meanwhile I built a PC for 1/4 of what it would cost me to build an equivalent Mac Pro a few years ago. It still stands up to the M2 chip today. I'll probably be rocking this one for another 5 years.
Oh boy. I suppose selling a "PC" (iMac, Mac Mini, etc) at desktop prices with laptop internals isn't skimping.
Meanwhile I built a PC for 1/4 of what it would cost me to build an equivalent Mac Pro a few years ago. It still stands up to the M2 chip today. I'll probably be rocking this one for another 5 years.
> I don’t see any specs on the ssd though so it may be SATA junk.
PC OEMs stopped using SATA SSDs years ago. Entry-level NVMe SSDs are both cheaper and faster than SATA SSDs built around the same quantity and type of flash.
PC OEMs stopped using SATA SSDs years ago. Entry-level NVMe SSDs are both cheaper and faster than SATA SSDs built around the same quantity and type of flash.
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Battery life is a huge advantage of the current MacBook hardware, unparalleled in the non-Apple laptop land.
Yeah, a starting price of 1500 Euros for a base M2 13 inch with 8GB of RAM and 256GB SSD is insane.
I had an Acer with 16GB of RAM and 512GB SSD since 2016 for something like 850-900 Euros back then and it wasn't some high-end gaming machine. Of course this Apple machine is much better than mine, but the comparison is to highlight what insane markups Apple is charging today on SSD and RAM configs that are years out of date. No wonder their profits are so good.
Also, considering how poorly the base single channel 256GB SSD performs on the M2 machines, I wouldn't be surprised if my 7 year old Samsung 850 EVO SATA SSD would actually beat it.
I had an Acer with 16GB of RAM and 512GB SSD since 2016 for something like 850-900 Euros back then and it wasn't some high-end gaming machine. Of course this Apple machine is much better than mine, but the comparison is to highlight what insane markups Apple is charging today on SSD and RAM configs that are years out of date. No wonder their profits are so good.
Also, considering how poorly the base single channel 256GB SSD performs on the M2 machines, I wouldn't be surprised if my 7 year old Samsung 850 EVO SATA SSD would actually beat it.
Indeed, their pricing is way off, the low end models are too pricy for most non tech users.
When you start getting up to the models with 16gb ram/512gb disks, which I consider an absolute minimum, their price is jut too insane for many tech users.
When you start getting up to the models with 16gb ram/512gb disks, which I consider an absolute minimum, their price is jut too insane for many tech users.
I've always joked that if you want a maxed-out model, it's cheaper to fly to the States, buy there, and fly back than to buy in Europe (especially in Sweden where I am right now)
That's almost entirely Sweden having a high tax rate though.
I just priced out an M2 MBA with ram & ssd maxed out. $2499 USD in the US and 33009kr in Sweden. $2499 is 26163kr, +25% VAT is 32705kr. So you're paying 304kr / $29 more than the US price.
I just priced out an M2 MBA with ram & ssd maxed out. $2499 USD in the US and 33009kr in Sweden. $2499 is 26163kr, +25% VAT is 32705kr. So you're paying 304kr / $29 more than the US price.
There's a sales tax in the US too. 7.25% in CA, on top of the product price.
Of course. But when people are comparing EU & US prices they're usually not accounting for that either - just the price on the site. And it's too easy to miss out that a) european prices are advertised inclusive of sales tax, and b) we lean towards much higher taxes.
So just going "what's that in dollars" either ignores the real discrepancy, or at the very least, misplaces the blame.
Also, fun fact - since I did that math 3 hours ago, SEK has changed enough to wipe out that $29. Right now, (33009 * 0.8) SEK in USD = US$2460.46, making the pre-tax price in Sweden cheaper than the pre-tax price in the US.
So just going "what's that in dollars" either ignores the real discrepancy, or at the very least, misplaces the blame.
Also, fun fact - since I did that math 3 hours ago, SEK has changed enough to wipe out that $29. Right now, (33009 * 0.8) SEK in USD = US$2460.46, making the pre-tax price in Sweden cheaper than the pre-tax price in the US.
Chicago has 10.25% but if you’re flying to the US to buy a laptop you’re gonna go to a non-sales tax state e.g. OR, MT, DE, etc
Many states have no sales tax.
There are only 5, Alaska, New Hampshire, Montana, Delaware, and Oregon. And the only one with a decent size city and airport is Oregon, but even then, it does not have significant international flights (though close enough to San Francisco and Seattle airports).
I guess New Hampshire has an Apple Store 45min from Boston airport, and Delaware has one about the same time from Philadelphia airport.
I guess New Hampshire has an Apple Store 45min from Boston airport, and Delaware has one about the same time from Philadelphia airport.
That is if you don’t get caught at customs… you’ll have to pay at least the VAT on the value of your purchase and possible a duty as well.
So if you want to do it legally you’ll have to add 20-25% to the price which no longer makes it very appealing.
So if you want to do it legally you’ll have to add 20-25% to the price which no longer makes it very appealing.
Just take it out of the box and put it in your carryon, making it your 'work laptop' right? How would you risk being caught at customs?
How to get past customs isn’t the problem, however it’s still tax evasion.
You can also buy a house much quicker in Europe if you find a way not to pay 50% of your income in tax… oh and that Porsche now looks quite affordable too..
You can also buy a house much quicker in Europe if you find a way not to pay 50% of your income in tax… oh and that Porsche now looks quite affordable too..
> however it’s still tax evasion
Not it's not. What are you even talking about? Buying goods for personal consumption/usage and bringing them into is perfectly legal..
Not it's not. What are you even talking about? Buying goods for personal consumption/usage and bringing them into is perfectly legal..
> That is if you don’t get caught at customs
Do you still have to pay if the Mac is out of the box and you have used it?
Do you still have to pay if the Mac is out of the box and you have used it?
When I lived in Switzerland, some clever people thought about that, as it used to have lower taxes for electronics.
It so happens that there are databases used by the customs agents that can trace back serial numbers to countries and purchase locations.
So trying to make up a story on a random control can turn out pretty bad.
It so happens that there are databases used by the customs agents that can trace back serial numbers to countries and purchase locations.
So trying to make up a story on a random control can turn out pretty bad.
Each country has a database that tracks import fee payment history by OEM serial number of laptops and other electronic devices, based on shipments to other countries?
I don't know how it actually works, rather an Interpol kind of database where products serial numbers are tracked in some way.
Being caught on lies where we actually bought our phones or cameras, while being controlled on the French/Swiss border wasn't that out of the ordinary.
Being caught on lies where we actually bought our phones or cameras, while being controlled on the French/Swiss border wasn't that out of the ordinary.
Was that necessary on every border crossing, e.g. showing copies of import fee payment receipts for each device? Sounds like a lot of overhead.
A matter of luck when talking to the customs agents.
Most of the time not at all, and then you get that one that wants to show off or had a bad day.
Most of the time not at all, and then you get that one that wants to show off or had a bad day.
The probability of getting caught is low. Unless you're bringing back several boxes.
Unpack, put it in your backpack, boom it's your personal item.
Unpack, put it in your backpack, boom it's your personal item.
> The probability of getting caught is low
Why would it be illegal if you just bought a single laptop for personal usage?
Why would it be illegal if you just bought a single laptop for personal usage?
Because you need to pay VAT on imports into the country above a certain value (which is much less than the cost of a Macbook).
Because you are avoiding tax, if you get caught you’ll pay the duty and a fine.
Again this isn’t about the probability it’s about the legality, saying that things are cheaper when you avoid tax is like saying water is wet.
Same in India. So much so that they are now being smuggled into India[1], there's a hefty profit to be made.
[1] https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/07/09/iphones-worth-134...
https://www.republicworld.com/india-news/general-news/in-mum...
[1] https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/07/09/iphones-worth-134...
https://www.republicworld.com/india-news/general-news/in-mum...
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I've avoided M series for this reason, and the more proprietary/locked down design... but also it seems like all we do with these upgrades is encourage more software bloat, especially on the browser side.
Environmentally I also dont like the push for minor increments every year across their range of products, and then forced 'obsolete' rating for perfectly working devices. I have a box full already thanks. I hope to use my current machine until it physically breaks, and then switch to open-hardware.
Environmentally I also dont like the push for minor increments every year across their range of products, and then forced 'obsolete' rating for perfectly working devices. I have a box full already thanks. I hope to use my current machine until it physically breaks, and then switch to open-hardware.
The "obsolete" designation is only for models that are several years old and it just means that they will no longer get software updates. You are free to keep using them as long as you like.
No one is expecting you to buy a new laptop every year, even if Apple does updates each year. Other people are buying new machines on their own timelines that do not synchronize with you. They are able to get the latest machine available when they are ready to buy.
Cars are updated every year but you don't feel the same pressure to update, do you?
No one is expecting you to buy a new laptop every year, even if Apple does updates each year. Other people are buying new machines on their own timelines that do not synchronize with you. They are able to get the latest machine available when they are ready to buy.
Cars are updated every year but you don't feel the same pressure to update, do you?
Apples increase in sales in 2020/2021 was also the steepest among computer makers.
Are modern journalists and business people really so dumb to think that spike trends will continue growing?
Are modern journalists and business people really so dumb to think that spike trends will continue growing?
No, but readers will still respond to dramatic titles.
Not dumb, just generating clicks.
What is most surprising here is that Apple's share growth is worse than other PC makers. It seemed like Apple was going to continue to gain market share in PCs with Apple Silicon effortlessly. But this didn't happen in Q1.
I'm going to speculate why:
* People are going back to buying cheaper laptops due to the economy, inflation, and exchange rates. Apple suffers in this environment because they're generally less flexible when it comes to dropping prices.
* M2 was late by ~8 months (assuming they want to release a new gen every year).
* M2 Pro/Max, consequentially, was also late by 4 months.
* M2's performance increases did not knock it out of the park. No Ray Tracing support. No drastic increase in ST. Still using a node in 5nm family.
* Ideally, we should be on M3 right now.
* M1, Pro, Max were so good that people will wait for M3 or M4 to upgrade again. I'm in this camp.
* Still no MacBook SE to capture the value Walmart/Costco Windows laptop buyers
* Still no 15" Macbook Air, which will very likely become the #1 selling Mac when it's released
* RAM and SSD are expensive upgrades and 8/256 as the baseline is finally not enough.
The most frustrating thing about following Apple Silicon over the last 2 years is just how passive Apple's strategy is. Hopefully, Apple is learning a lesson here and will be more aggressive going forward. No more delays. No more holding back. Less stingy on RAM and SSD.
I'm going to speculate why:
* People are going back to buying cheaper laptops due to the economy, inflation, and exchange rates. Apple suffers in this environment because they're generally less flexible when it comes to dropping prices.
* M2 was late by ~8 months (assuming they want to release a new gen every year).
* M2 Pro/Max, consequentially, was also late by 4 months.
* M2's performance increases did not knock it out of the park. No Ray Tracing support. No drastic increase in ST. Still using a node in 5nm family.
* Ideally, we should be on M3 right now.
* M1, Pro, Max were so good that people will wait for M3 or M4 to upgrade again. I'm in this camp.
* Still no MacBook SE to capture the value Walmart/Costco Windows laptop buyers
* Still no 15" Macbook Air, which will very likely become the #1 selling Mac when it's released
* RAM and SSD are expensive upgrades and 8/256 as the baseline is finally not enough.
The most frustrating thing about following Apple Silicon over the last 2 years is just how passive Apple's strategy is. Hopefully, Apple is learning a lesson here and will be more aggressive going forward. No more delays. No more holding back. Less stingy on RAM and SSD.
> M2's performance increases did not knock it out of the park.
I can't understand where people got their idea that M2 had to absolutely be an OMG moment. That's literally what Apple has been doing since forever: release a major upgrade, iterate on it for a few years, repeat.
> Ideally, we should be on M3 right now.
M1 was released in November 2020, less than three years ago. How the hell are we supposed to be on M3 now?
I can't understand where people got their idea that M2 had to absolutely be an OMG moment. That's literally what Apple has been doing since forever: release a major upgrade, iterate on it for a few years, repeat.
> Ideally, we should be on M3 right now.
M1 was released in November 2020, less than three years ago. How the hell are we supposed to be on M3 now?
> I can't understand where people got their idea that M2 had to absolutely be an OMG moment. That's literally what Apple has been doing since forever: release a major upgrade, iterate on it for a few years, repeat.
Maybe not so much that people were expected to get their socks knocked off once again but mostly that M1 Max/Pro are more than enough for years to come for the majority of the people that got them.
Heck, I have a M1Air and a M1Max16. I can't even max it out with my current usage. Hard to justify the slight bump for the M2 given the cost in the EU. Even if M3 would double the performance and battery life would still be a hard sell.
Maybe not so much that people were expected to get their socks knocked off once again but mostly that M1 Max/Pro are more than enough for years to come for the majority of the people that got them.
Heck, I have a M1Air and a M1Max16. I can't even max it out with my current usage. Hard to justify the slight bump for the M2 given the cost in the EU. Even if M3 would double the performance and battery life would still be a hard sell.
That everyone already got their M1s is the main reason for sales slump in my opinion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35510795
the market for M2/3 chip machines is not those with M1s but those people who are still on the Intel machines. People don't usually replace their MacBooks annually. Most people keep them for several years.
>M1 was released in November 2020, less than three years ago. How the hell are we supposed to be on M3 now?
Marketing. Consider why Chrome and Firefox increase their major version number every release for the smallest change now.
When Intel and AMD are both bumping up their version numbers every year or two, Apple sitting on M1 for three years looks out of fashion to the simpler people.
This isn't to say Apple (nor Intel and AMD for that matter) should release new CPUs or bump the number up anyway every year, but human psychology is undeniable.
Marketing. Consider why Chrome and Firefox increase their major version number every release for the smallest change now.
When Intel and AMD are both bumping up their version numbers every year or two, Apple sitting on M1 for three years looks out of fashion to the simpler people.
This isn't to say Apple (nor Intel and AMD for that matter) should release new CPUs or bump the number up anyway every year, but human psychology is undeniable.
Those aren't really major version numbers. Those are release numbers. Chrome and Firefox are not using semantic versioning anymore.
They are major version numbers, for example the latest Firefox is v111.0.1 and Chromium is v114.0.5708.0.
Yes, the most miniscule of minor changes is reflected with lower-level version numbers, but the major version number still gets bumped up for next to no reason other than marketing.
Yes, the most miniscule of minor changes is reflected with lower-level version numbers, but the major version number still gets bumped up for next to no reason other than marketing.
Do people really pick Chrome/Firefox instead of Edge because the version number is higher?
Unless I missed something, Edge matches Chrome with version number because it's just Chrome with Microsoft frosting.
But to answer the question: Yes. "Bigger number better" is how most people compare things.
But to answer the question: Yes. "Bigger number better" is how most people compare things.
>I can't understand where people got their idea that M2 had to absolutely be an OMG moment. That's literally what Apple has been doing since forever: release a major upgrade, iterate on it for a few years, repeat.
That's right. That's part of the reason why sales fell so drastically.
>M1 was released in November 2020, less than three years ago. How the hell are we supposed to be on M3 now?
There is a lot of evidence that Apple wants to release a new M series every year. There were many reputable reports that suggests M2 was ready long before the M2 Air design was ready to go. Another piece of evidence is that the video files for the M2 Pro/Max suggests that they were ready as soon as October 2022. They were delayed by 4 months.
Ideally, the timeline should have been:
M1: Fall 2020 (uses A14 from iPhone 12)
M2: Fall 2021 (uses A15 from iPhone 13)
M3: Fall 2022 (probably would have used A16 from iPhone 14 but with delays to M2 and delays to TSMC's 3nm, it'll likely skip the A16 and go straight to A17 from iPhone 15).
The above timeline did not happen for various reasons including supply chain bottlenecks, delays to the M2 Air redesign, and 3nm delay from TSMC.
That's right. That's part of the reason why sales fell so drastically.
>M1 was released in November 2020, less than three years ago. How the hell are we supposed to be on M3 now?
There is a lot of evidence that Apple wants to release a new M series every year. There were many reputable reports that suggests M2 was ready long before the M2 Air design was ready to go. Another piece of evidence is that the video files for the M2 Pro/Max suggests that they were ready as soon as October 2022. They were delayed by 4 months.
Ideally, the timeline should have been:
M1: Fall 2020 (uses A14 from iPhone 12)
M2: Fall 2021 (uses A15 from iPhone 13)
M3: Fall 2022 (probably would have used A16 from iPhone 14 but with delays to M2 and delays to TSMC's 3nm, it'll likely skip the A16 and go straight to A17 from iPhone 15).
The above timeline did not happen for various reasons including supply chain bottlenecks, delays to the M2 Air redesign, and 3nm delay from TSMC.
illiarian(1)
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> * M1, Pro, Max were so good that people will wait for M3 or M4 to upgrade again. I'm in this camp.
This is me. I was dominating a 13" mbp m1 base model in startup mode for almost two years. I only upgraded to a 16" mbp m1 base model for the larger screen and higher refresh rate. The moment they release m3 or m4 or whatever without the display notch and even more improvements, I'll upgrade.
I'm fully expecting both my 13" and 16" m1 machines to still be almost as productive as I need them to be in a couple years...but this alien technology deserves to be purchased.
This is me. I was dominating a 13" mbp m1 base model in startup mode for almost two years. I only upgraded to a 16" mbp m1 base model for the larger screen and higher refresh rate. The moment they release m3 or m4 or whatever without the display notch and even more improvements, I'll upgrade.
I'm fully expecting both my 13" and 16" m1 machines to still be almost as productive as I need them to be in a couple years...but this alien technology deserves to be purchased.
> The most frustrating thing about following Apple Silicon over the last 2 years is just how passive Apple's strategy is.
Apple had problems but not much they could do. There were "delays" at TSMC. There was talent loss e.g. with some members moving to Nuvia (now acquired by Qualcomm).
M2 ideally could have been much better but it was out of their hands.
Wouldn't call it passive.
Apple had problems but not much they could do. There were "delays" at TSMC. There was talent loss e.g. with some members moving to Nuvia (now acquired by Qualcomm).
M2 ideally could have been much better but it was out of their hands.
Wouldn't call it passive.
Great synopsis.
Amazing machines, but the price climbs like a rocket as everyone else sinks back down to earth. And AMD Ryzen mobile cpus give M a run.
I don't understand M2 at all. And I say this from an M1 Max. I had hoped that M2 was going to be as drastic an increase as the M1 was, but nope.
Amazing machines, but the price climbs like a rocket as everyone else sinks back down to earth. And AMD Ryzen mobile cpus give M a run.
I don't understand M2 at all. And I say this from an M1 Max. I had hoped that M2 was going to be as drastic an increase as the M1 was, but nope.
Genuinely interested why you expected an iterative change (M1 to M2) to be as drastic as an architecture change (Intel to Apple Silicon)?
I have an M1 Max MBP and an M2 Air - both machines are great, I can’t tell the difference between the chips on short work loads but the M2 Air form factor is the best Mac I’ve had (15 year Mac user so I’ve got a few to compare it to)
I have an M1 Max MBP and an M2 Air - both machines are great, I can’t tell the difference between the chips on short work loads but the M2 Air form factor is the best Mac I’ve had (15 year Mac user so I’ve got a few to compare it to)
I wasn't expecting Apple to follow an Intel tick-tock model, they had ground to makeup against Intel for stagnating for so long. M2 is an incremental improvement, and not by much. Given how small it was, they should have phased out M1 and just silently-ish slipped M2 into the stream. Push the remaining M1s into ipads and low end macbook airs.
They could have pulled off another step function, widening the path to main memory, more cache, more efficiency cores, doubled the width to the SSDs. There is about 18 months of time between front end design that goes into the next version. The chip design is cut off before everything you want to go in, goes in. That makes it into V2 before V1 has even shipped. It isn't until V3 that one gets to incorporate changes from the field into the next chip design.
Basically, I was hopeful that Apple chip dev team was going to go as hard as possible to gain distance against the competition, but they pulled the MBA maximum market extraction play but the market softened and the perf increase wasn't there. They bet wrong.
Fingers crossed M3 is the next step function.
They could have pulled off another step function, widening the path to main memory, more cache, more efficiency cores, doubled the width to the SSDs. There is about 18 months of time between front end design that goes into the next version. The chip design is cut off before everything you want to go in, goes in. That makes it into V2 before V1 has even shipped. It isn't until V3 that one gets to incorporate changes from the field into the next chip design.
Basically, I was hopeful that Apple chip dev team was going to go as hard as possible to gain distance against the competition, but they pulled the MBA maximum market extraction play but the market softened and the perf increase wasn't there. They bet wrong.
Fingers crossed M3 is the next step function.
Why do you think 15" Air would the best selling Mac?
Because the 15" Windows laptop screen size is the most popular, by far.
It makes a lot of sense. 13" is a tad bit too small for students and office workers. 15" is more comfortable for productivity.
I assume that laptop buyers will focus on productivity. Otherwise, they'd just use their iPads/tablets for media consumption.
It makes a lot of sense. 13" is a tad bit too small for students and office workers. 15" is more comfortable for productivity.
I assume that laptop buyers will focus on productivity. Otherwise, they'd just use their iPads/tablets for media consumption.
>assuming they want to release a new gen every year
Why would one assume that?
Why would one assume that?
* An Apple executive said recently that they want to release a huge upgrade every year. They don't want to hold back.[0]
* M1 used A14. M2 used A15 (even though A16 was already out). This seems to suggest that Apple wants to make use of every A series iteration. The A series gets a new gen every year.
* It seems to make sense business-wise that the base M will at least get upgraded once a year. It isn't too much more effort since the iPhone funds most of the development. The base M chip goes into the following: Macbook Air 13", Macbook Air 15"(expected to come out in a few months), iPad Pro 13", iPad Pro 11", iMac, Mac Mini, iPad Air. It's valuable to update these devices once a year.
* We weren't in "normal" years. Covid, supply chain issues, work from home, gigantic demand followed by demand collapse like contributed to delays.
[0]https://techcrunch.com/2023/02/06/apple-execs-on-m2-chips-wi...
* M1 used A14. M2 used A15 (even though A16 was already out). This seems to suggest that Apple wants to make use of every A series iteration. The A series gets a new gen every year.
* It seems to make sense business-wise that the base M will at least get upgraded once a year. It isn't too much more effort since the iPhone funds most of the development. The base M chip goes into the following: Macbook Air 13", Macbook Air 15"(expected to come out in a few months), iPad Pro 13", iPad Pro 11", iMac, Mac Mini, iPad Air. It's valuable to update these devices once a year.
* We weren't in "normal" years. Covid, supply chain issues, work from home, gigantic demand followed by demand collapse like contributed to delays.
[0]https://techcrunch.com/2023/02/06/apple-execs-on-m2-chips-wi...
I'd be surprised if annual releases were a high priority given the lower volume vs iPhone and the lack of annual release cadence expectations for macs in general. 16-18 month cadence is the norm right now - just look at Nvidia for example.
Mac laptops last a long time.
I have a lot of old MBPs accrued from past jobs that "just work". I can do almost everything I need to do with them, even most development tasks. So given the choice between a new laptop and an old one, the new one is really just a luxury. If my finances are tight, I'm definitely not getting a new mac if I can make do.
I have a lot of old MBPs accrued from past jobs that "just work". I can do almost everything I need to do with them, even most development tasks. So given the choice between a new laptop and an old one, the new one is really just a luxury. If my finances are tight, I'm definitely not getting a new mac if I can make do.
It took me almost 11 years to replace my i7 2600k and I only replaced it because I no longer use a desktop computer. Some M1 users will keep their chip for 10+ years.
I dominated a base-model m1 13" for almost two years, pushing it through startup engineering workflows. It handled everything admirably despite "just" 8gb of ram. I still have it but upgraded to the 16" for the bigger viewport and high refresh rate, but the 13" is no slouch. I could see it having lasted another couple years for my web-dev workflows, although the display size/refresh improvements for the 16" were what I needed.
Home computer still a slightly overclocked i7-2600 with lots of RAM... Only now starting to encounter too many annoying saturations of the CPU.
Given the other comments highlighting this is an editorialized headline, I must add that I found the M1 generation of machines to be absolutely fantastic. It got me to buy a Mac for the first time in 10 years. They convinced me to spend £800 on a machine with un-upgradable 8GB RAM / 512GB SSD. That's an achievement.
Naturally, I wanted to reccomend them to people (many less technical) getting frustrated with Windows machines. The M2s were at least 40% more expensive.
This is really not more complicated than this. Their pricing model was wrong. I genuinely would have sold and upgraded if they were priced similarly. But 2020 M1s didn't decay in price at all over 2 years. So what else could they do?
If they had reduced the M1s and M2s, they would have sold an extraordinary amount of computers.
Naturally, I wanted to reccomend them to people (many less technical) getting frustrated with Windows machines. The M2s were at least 40% more expensive.
This is really not more complicated than this. Their pricing model was wrong. I genuinely would have sold and upgraded if they were priced similarly. But 2020 M1s didn't decay in price at all over 2 years. So what else could they do?
If they had reduced the M1s and M2s, they would have sold an extraordinary amount of computers.
There are fewer and fewer reasons to buy new PC hardware as the decades have marched on. CPUs and GPUs have been overpowered for all but niche markets - and yes, gaming is a niche market. I've been averaging 7 years or more for my machines for a long time now; that was bound to show up in PC sales at some point.
And i think people are still failing to account for just how muc mobile has utterly taken over most normal people's general purpose computing needs. Frankly I'm surprised PC sales are still as high as they are. I'm typing on a MacBook Pro right now and have zero desire to spend most of my computing time on a phone or tablet - but I also know I am in a shrinking minority too.
> There are fewer and fewer reasons to buy new PC hardware as the decades have marched on.
If Apple provided a way to use Mac minis to serve as distributed compile caching and distributed build tool, I'd have a reason to buy some.
Also, mac minis are expensive when compared with other miniPCs in the market. There are some ryzen5/core i5 systems with 16 and 32GB of RAM shipping with Windows 11 being sold right now on Amazon for 300-500€. If all you want to do is run stuff in a browser and do work then you'd be hard pressed to find a reason to buy a Mac mini, let alone a Mac studio.
If Apple provided a way to use Mac minis to serve as distributed compile caching and distributed build tool, I'd have a reason to buy some.
Also, mac minis are expensive when compared with other miniPCs in the market. There are some ryzen5/core i5 systems with 16 and 32GB of RAM shipping with Windows 11 being sold right now on Amazon for 300-500€. If all you want to do is run stuff in a browser and do work then you'd be hard pressed to find a reason to buy a Mac mini, let alone a Mac studio.
That PC sales went down in times of economic downturn is not surprising at all seeing how as for most people there is not that much to be gained from buying a new machine over an older one - performance is sufficient. That Apple sales went down is somewhat surprising because this company occupies a market segment which is closer to that of a lifestyle brands like Prada, Hermes and Gucci than it is to a more standard tech brand like Dell. If Apple customers collectively decide the new cool is to be found in using 5 year old tech Apple has a problem which is can not extricate itself from by simply upgrading their offerings. They'll have to do something to capture back the "new cool", e.g. re-introduce the possibility to upgrade machines with a wink and nod to the "environment" and "climate" monikers, move production back to the USA and Europe with a wink and nod to "rebuilding the economy", etc. Whatever they do will most likely be less related to upgraded technology, more towards less tangible but more marketable goals because that has been a large part of what has driven Apple up to the place it is now.
The typical Mac owner was not buying a new machine every year or 2 before this either. I'd bet most people were using them for 5+ years for quite a while before this.
I bought a late-2013 13" MBP when starting university in 2014, used it all the way through to graduation, and didn't upgrade from it until the 14-inch Pro came out in 2021. Even then, it was still a passable machine for a lot of non-demanding workloads, but it no longer had software support and I'm a nerd that wanted to try the fancy new Apple Silicon for myself. I think my sister got like 8 or so years out of her 2010 MBP as well.
Macs have had good, long lifespans before this too (with exceptions for some budget configurations that were questionable value at the time of purchase)
I bought a late-2013 13" MBP when starting university in 2014, used it all the way through to graduation, and didn't upgrade from it until the 14-inch Pro came out in 2021. Even then, it was still a passable machine for a lot of non-demanding workloads, but it no longer had software support and I'm a nerd that wanted to try the fancy new Apple Silicon for myself. I think my sister got like 8 or so years out of her 2010 MBP as well.
Macs have had good, long lifespans before this too (with exceptions for some budget configurations that were questionable value at the time of purchase)
How many people actually need the perf of an M1 or M2-based laptop? I see a lot of excited stuff about running ML models on Apple silicon, but not much about how it benefits ordinary tech users running compile workloads or whatever, and nothing at all about people running standard applications.
The hardware is great, I'm just not convinced that the price/performance delivers a big enough market.
The hardware is great, I'm just not convinced that the price/performance delivers a big enough market.
It was pointed out to me about a decade ago that is actually the “normies” who need higher-performance computers than seasoned professionals.
Folks who know how computers work tend to subliminally optimize it, knowing when go quit apps, how to manage windows, patience with processes that logically take extra time, etc.
It’s the neophytes and dilettantes that run all their apps at the same time, have dozens of windows with hundreds of tabs open all the time, and are prone to freaking out when their system “beachballs”.
I coaxed my CEO — a business guy who happens to be in tech - into getting the M2 Air, watched a lot of his frustrations melt away. Between all the performance and battery life, it was a slam dunk. Meanwhile, I was running “compile workloads” on a wimpier 8gb M1 Air and sailing!
Folks who know how computers work tend to subliminally optimize it, knowing when go quit apps, how to manage windows, patience with processes that logically take extra time, etc.
It’s the neophytes and dilettantes that run all their apps at the same time, have dozens of windows with hundreds of tabs open all the time, and are prone to freaking out when their system “beachballs”.
I coaxed my CEO — a business guy who happens to be in tech - into getting the M2 Air, watched a lot of his frustrations melt away. Between all the performance and battery life, it was a slam dunk. Meanwhile, I was running “compile workloads” on a wimpier 8gb M1 Air and sailing!
I agree, all the anti-virus stuff my father installs on his laptops makes it virtually unusable.
> have dozens of windows with hundreds of tabs open all the time
Sigh, seems like I'm a dilettante.
Sigh, seems like I'm a dilettante.
When I went from my Intel MBP (was the prior gen) to my first M1 MBA it cut my java test suite times in 1/2. I dug in thinking something was broken, but nope, it was that much faster.
As another poster said, I bought a M1 Max, 64gb when they came out and it still feels new speed wise. Unless something breaks, this computer should last a really long time.
As another poster said, I bought a M1 Max, 64gb when they came out and it still feels new speed wise. Unless something breaks, this computer should last a really long time.
I had the previous MacBook Pro i7 which was using for normal compile workloads. It ran so hot that I needed to put an ice brick underneath it in order to stop it from aggressively throttling and sounding like a jet engine going off.
With my M1 the fan rarely spins up at all and the efficiency/battery life makes a massive difference.
With my M1 the fan rarely spins up at all and the efficiency/battery life makes a massive difference.
> How many people actually need the perf of an M1 or M2-based laptop?
Give it a few years. Browsers and apps will expand to fill the available performance, as they always have.
Give it a few years. Browsers and apps will expand to fill the available performance, as they always have.
"What Andy giveth, Bill taketh away."
My M1 Pro builds LLVM about as fast as my 64 core cloud workstation. This is pretty neat.
> How many people actually need the perf of an M1 or M2-based laptop?
Think of it as an investment. If it's tour personal laptop, you can buy a maxed-out M1/M2 and use it for the next decade (while throwing random shit at it like the occasional video editing, or streaming, or a side project...)
Think of it as an investment. If it's tour personal laptop, you can buy a maxed-out M1/M2 and use it for the next decade (while throwing random shit at it like the occasional video editing, or streaming, or a side project...)
Perhaps non-tech corporations without the means to implement CI/CD would appreciate end-device performance gains?
Regardless, other laptop vendors have mostly caught up in performance anyway. Mobility might have a better case to be made.
Regardless, other laptop vendors have mostly caught up in performance anyway. Mobility might have a better case to be made.
For developers who use languages that are compiled/strongly typed CI/CD won't help.
And no other laptops vendors haven't caught up. Their efficiency is still way lower.
And no other laptops vendors haven't caught up. Their efficiency is still way lower.
I got my wife to upgrade to an M1. I still have a haswell i7 and responsiveness of on a different scale. But to be fair, I had to use a ROG zen machine while my Lenovo was in repair and it felt close in responsiveness.
The battery life is really nice even if you don’t need the full power.
Good point. Having cpu cores that are optimised for efficiency is a nuce feature.
>How many people actually need the perf of an M1 or M2-based laptop?
All of them; the battery life of an M1/2 Macbook should be the minimum bar that all other laptops should strive to meet, let alone beat.
All of them; the battery life of an M1/2 Macbook should be the minimum bar that all other laptops should strive to meet, let alone beat.
High priced luxury laptops aren't a big ticket item in a global recession.
Because the rents are too damn high! Duh.
I recently started a new job, and the boss asked me to buy myself a laptop. I without thinking much asked "what's the budget, about a thousand?" He said gently, "Uh try for 600... Check out Lenovo."
I've now got a kick-ass Lenovo upgraded with lots of RAM and SSD disk for 600.
I recently started a new job, and the boss asked me to buy myself a laptop. I without thinking much asked "what's the budget, about a thousand?" He said gently, "Uh try for 600... Check out Lenovo."
I've now got a kick-ass Lenovo upgraded with lots of RAM and SSD disk for 600.
Given the fact that process node changes are coming more slowly, and TSMC's delayed 3nm node has finally hit volume production, I have a pretty good reason not buy in at the tail end of 5nm.
> Apple Has Procured TSMC's Entire First Run of 3nm Chips
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/343291-apple-has-procu...
I think lower sales are a result of the previous pandemic purchase spike, along with the M1 upgrade spike, in addition to people holding off due to the imminent release of 3nm chips.
> Apple Has Procured TSMC's Entire First Run of 3nm Chips
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/343291-apple-has-procu...
I think lower sales are a result of the previous pandemic purchase spike, along with the M1 upgrade spike, in addition to people holding off due to the imminent release of 3nm chips.
It's a bit odd to me basing a purchasing decision on process nodes. I would consider overall product features rather the foundry or foundry node in of it self.
In fact, I'd rather being inclined towards n-1 node and not take the risk of being first for high volume manufacturing for a new node.
In fact, I'd rather being inclined towards n-1 node and not take the risk of being first for high volume manufacturing for a new node.
> It's a bit odd to me basing a purchasing decision on process nodes.
It's a bit odd to want a SOC with reduced power usage and/or improved performance?
> Compared to TSMC's N5 manufacturing technology, the company's N3 production node promises to deliver a 10% to 15% performance improvement (at the same power and transistor count), reduce power consumption by 25% – 30% (at the same frequency and complexity), and increase logic density by around 1.6 times.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/tsmc-kicks-off-3nm-product...
It's a bit odd to want a SOC with reduced power usage and/or improved performance?
> Compared to TSMC's N5 manufacturing technology, the company's N3 production node promises to deliver a 10% to 15% performance improvement (at the same power and transistor count), reduce power consumption by 25% – 30% (at the same frequency and complexity), and increase logic density by around 1.6 times.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/tsmc-kicks-off-3nm-product...
i bought a M1 mac mini because i'm want to check out ARM chip in desktop.
IMO, Apple asking $600 for a pc with 8GB RAM and 256 GB storage is too much. i rather build a desktop based on what i want in the PC.
IMO, Apple asking $600 for a pc with 8GB RAM and 256 GB storage is too much. i rather build a desktop based on what i want in the PC.
WSJ take on it: PC Shipments Fall 29%, Led by Drop in Apple Devices https://www.wsj.com/articles/pc-shipments-fall-29-led-by-dro... /// https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35512716
I wonder if this has to do with just how good the M1/M2 chips are. I have an M2 MacBook Air and honestly, it's been one of the best computers I had in a while. Perfect size, works extremely fast for what I need and is built really well. I don't think I will be buying another computer anytime soon. I used to upgrade every two years but now I don't think I want to jump back on the MacBook Pro train for a bit.
I have a 2019 Macbook Pro I almost upgraded a few months ago... and then decided not to and stick with my Windows desktop and my Macbook from work. There's no real need at this point, I'll just keep waiting until something drastic happens like my laptop dies because my kids spill their drink all over it.
Could it be that the initial set of M1s was just “too good”? Mine is several years old now and I have zero desire to upgrade to an M2 or whatever we’re at. It’s so fast and snappy, even when doing 300k row DB updates (to pick a potentially meaningless example).
I have M1 iPad Pro and MacBook Pro. I don’t see that the new gear offers any real advantages. Same with my 3 year old Apple Watch and my iPhone 11 - every thing just works great.
I hope this sales downturn does not induce Apple to stop supporting older hardware.
I hope this sales downturn does not induce Apple to stop supporting older hardware.
My 2015 MacBook Pro is still working OK but I could be convinced to upgrade. But not with Apple’s pricing. I’m just using my Ryzen desktop instead.
I think MBPs great devices - for my employer to purchase, but as an individual they’re just too expensive now.
I think MBPs great devices - for my employer to purchase, but as an individual they’re just too expensive now.
I’m doing my part. I got a new work M1 MBP. Then, I was laid off, so I got a new personal M2 air. Then, I got a new job, which gave me a new M2 MBP. North of $10k in laptops.
Oh, and a new iPhone.
Oh, and a new iPhone.
It's not just the pandemic shopping spree hangover, Apple's hardware pricing is completely out of the market. $1700-$2500 for a median spec computer?
It's ridiculous.
It's ridiculous.
People have been saying this for literal decades. That's not what's causing the drop.
The m1's were in line with the rest of the market, if not cheaper.
Well.. now it is.
early 00's Macs were overpriced BUT they had the die-hard Apple fans which were mostly professionals with high income, then by the late to early 10's Macs were actually inline or cheaper than PCs ( and much better ), but in the last ~5-6 years the prices have been higher and higher to the point a large portion of their newly found market are being squeezed.
I imagine those people are not buying PCs in droves, but they are certainly holding to their older hardware.
early 00's Macs were overpriced BUT they had the die-hard Apple fans which were mostly professionals with high income, then by the late to early 10's Macs were actually inline or cheaper than PCs ( and much better ), but in the last ~5-6 years the prices have been higher and higher to the point a large portion of their newly found market are being squeezed.
I imagine those people are not buying PCs in droves, but they are certainly holding to their older hardware.
At the new M1 prices, the highest ever, Apple shipped personal best and industry best volume.
We need to look elsewhere for an explanation.
We need to look elsewhere for an explanation.
Stats on 2019 vs. 2023 and Apple relative to other PC makers, shown elsewhere in this thread, suggest they are not "completely out of the market".
Watch 2023 and 2024, prices will come down ( a bit, because Apple can wait and can't look desperate to move units ).
They are out of the market now for what they were expecting, obviously they are still selling products.
They are out of the market now for what they were expecting, obviously they are still selling products.
God forbid that they should ever have to compete on price.
How are they not competing on price?
Is what eventually happens when the platform (macOS) does doesn't have enough features being added to it that benefit from improved hardware for the majority of its users.
Could argue that's because macOS is being neglected as it's slowly being replaced with iPadOS. Could argue it's just what happens with converging to an optimum. Either way outside of video editing - and perhaps AI dev - upgrading from last gen pro Intel and m1 doesn't feel very compelling at the moment.
Could argue that's because macOS is being neglected as it's slowly being replaced with iPadOS. Could argue it's just what happens with converging to an optimum. Either way outside of video editing - and perhaps AI dev - upgrading from last gen pro Intel and m1 doesn't feel very compelling at the moment.
Could the tightening of tech companies also be adding to this? Less new hires/less frequent refreshers of issued laptops
[deleted]
For those who, like me, have hit a paywall:
https://archive.ph/qehUm
https://archive.ph/qehUm
ha, should have kept a 27" model on the line.
no, I don't think this is the deal (though the lack of the 27" has affected my hardware buying decisions for our lab), just re-registering my complaint.
no, I don't think this is the deal (though the lack of the 27" has affected my hardware buying decisions for our lab), just re-registering my complaint.
I suspect some portion of this can more pixels or not, be attributed to the introduction of notched screens.
good
maybe it'll signal them that people don't like their walled garden
maybe it'll signal them that people don't like their walled garden
Nothing to do with the article, but about the title:
"Apple’s 40% Plunge in PC Shipments..."
Historically, I've seen the term "PC" used to refer to Windows machines (not that it made much sense.) Has the term "PC" been generalized to also include Macs now?
Historically, I've seen the term "PC" used to refer to Windows machines (not that it made much sense.) Has the term "PC" been generalized to also include Macs now?
The term "personal computer" predates the IBM PC by a few years, and was generally a synonym with "home computer" (which Apple computers also were.)
For instance, the TRS-80 was not an "IBM compatible PC", but was advertised as a personal computer. When these terms were new, they weren't yet technical jargon with subtle meanings. "Personal computer" meant simply a computer intended for personal use.
For instance, the TRS-80 was not an "IBM compatible PC", but was advertised as a personal computer. When these terms were new, they weren't yet technical jargon with subtle meanings. "Personal computer" meant simply a computer intended for personal use.
That might have been the case at one point, and perhaps again, now, but i've see PCs to not include Macs in common usage for decades. Here is one example directly from Intel:
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/tech-tips-and-tricks...
Mac* vs. PC: Choose What’s Right for You When it comes to the choice between a Mac or PC, selecting a device that offers the features and flexibility you need is what matters most.
Another example: https://woz-u.com/blog/pc-vs-mac-whats-best-for-you/ PC vs Mac: What’s Best for You? By Woz U|August 4th, 2022|Woz U
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/tech-tips-and-tricks...
Mac* vs. PC: Choose What’s Right for You When it comes to the choice between a Mac or PC, selecting a device that offers the features and flexibility you need is what matters most.
Another example: https://woz-u.com/blog/pc-vs-mac-whats-best-for-you/ PC vs Mac: What’s Best for You? By Woz U|August 4th, 2022|Woz U
I thought a lot of modern people's distinction between PCs and Macs came from Apple's own marketing, like the "get a Mac" ads - "I'm a Mac, and I'm a PC"
With the idea being, "a PC is that old thing you've been using that constantly causes you grief. We're selling you something in an entirely different category."
With the idea being, "a PC is that old thing you've been using that constantly causes you grief. We're selling you something in an entirely different category."
I think Mac v. PC as a tribal dividing line has largely been replaced by PC v. Phone, given that most of the population no longer interacts with computers outside of work at all any more.
Yes I know, I'm speaking about where the terms came from originally, since you mentioned 'historically.'
PC has always been general (which means it includes Apple computers).
PC started as IBM PC, an alliance between IBM and Microsoft for their respective OSes, of course it made sense.
I wanted to adopt MacOS… but I quickly realized how bad an idea it’s going to be… the M1 would probably sit unused in the shelf after the first week.
Why a bad idea?
I've been using a Mac M1 for over a year at work because my company likes Mac. I particularly would love to have Windows as an option.
I feel that everything is just a little harder and slower in MacOS vs Windows - one very obvious and memorable problem is the massive installation times for OS updates. Overall, as a result of a number of annoyances here and there, I'm less productive with a Mac despite its great hardware.
I feel that everything is just a little harder and slower in MacOS vs Windows - one very obvious and memorable problem is the massive installation times for OS updates. Overall, as a result of a number of annoyances here and there, I'm less productive with a Mac despite its great hardware.
Well Apple updates are far more infrequent than Microsoft with Windows so you are still probably way ahead :p
When prompted I just pick "Later" and my Mac updates at night. Automatically. When I'm not using it so unless it was going to take longer than the time I'm going to be sleeping, update length is a non-issue.
When prompted I just pick "Later" and my Mac updates at night. Automatically. When I'm not using it so unless it was going to take longer than the time I'm going to be sleeping, update length is a non-issue.
[deleted]
Just speaking for my own experiences, I have witnessed shops spend ridiculous amounts of time (100+ monthly man hours) porting to MacOS and never using it in production. For a lot of people (particularly those deploying to Linux), debugging for 2 distinct UNIX systems is a waste of time.
Non the op, but for the that was the expectation. Compared to the well polished IOS/IpadOS MacOS looks and feels very dated.
Since apple digital jail is even worse than msft one, even though you have the same steering from blackrock/vanguard share holders...
jez... this is actually good news.
But all that is linked, the sane way out of this are risc-v based systems with _LEAN_ open source (hence excluding the current "web"). We could even push to "open source" performant risc-v design.
jez... this is actually good news.
But all that is linked, the sane way out of this are risc-v based systems with _LEAN_ open source (hence excluding the current "web"). We could even push to "open source" performant risc-v design.
Many choose Apple exactly because of the tight platform integration. There is no one true method of general computing.
The absolute truth about apple and msft: they ARE digital jails.
There is worse though: video game consoles and locked smart phones.
There is worse though: video game consoles and locked smart phones.
As a programmer I’m happy to use a locked in box in my free time that does with a push of a button exactly the thing a vendor promised.
It sounds like you imagine all compute devices should be generalized compute platforms. Which IMO is as silly as demanding all products containing wood and metal rods should function as abacuses.
Free compute is not a value adding feature in a product unless the main feature of the product is general computation.
Adding compute capabilities to products often makes them better, but it does not mean the platform should invite free tinkering.
I don’t want to tinker with my phone. I want it to be able to function as a phone.
That said of course we all want vendor-agnostic compute platforms to exist, and the world is so much better because we can use Linux if we choose.
But the idea all devices with CPU should be open is a non-value adding one.
It sounds like you imagine all compute devices should be generalized compute platforms. Which IMO is as silly as demanding all products containing wood and metal rods should function as abacuses.
Free compute is not a value adding feature in a product unless the main feature of the product is general computation.
Adding compute capabilities to products often makes them better, but it does not mean the platform should invite free tinkering.
I don’t want to tinker with my phone. I want it to be able to function as a phone.
That said of course we all want vendor-agnostic compute platforms to exist, and the world is so much better because we can use Linux if we choose.
But the idea all devices with CPU should be open is a non-value adding one.