Brazil central bank to launch Pix installment feature in September(reuters.com)
reuters.com
Brazil central bank to launch Pix installment feature in September
https://www.reuters.com/technology/brazil-central-bank-launch-pix-installment-feature-september-2025-04-03/
186 comments
It may be good, but what does the Brazilian law say[0]?
In 2021, Brazil enacted Law No. 14.063, which governs the digitalization of public services. Its Article 16 is clear:
“Information and communication systems developed exclusively by the public administration shall be governed by open-source licenses, allowing their unrestricted use, copying, modification, and distribution by all public agencies and entities.”
In short, software developed solely by the public sector—funded with taxpayer money and intended to serve the public interest—must be made available under an open-source license.
Pix is exposed to a legal instrument called 'Mandado de Segurança'.
I have written about it:
https://d1gesto.blogspot.com/2025/06/brazils-pix-system-face...
[0] https://www.gov.br/governodigital/pt-br/plataformas-e-servic...
In 2021, Brazil enacted Law No. 14.063, which governs the digitalization of public services. Its Article 16 is clear:
“Information and communication systems developed exclusively by the public administration shall be governed by open-source licenses, allowing their unrestricted use, copying, modification, and distribution by all public agencies and entities.”
In short, software developed solely by the public sector—funded with taxpayer money and intended to serve the public interest—must be made available under an open-source license.
Pix is exposed to a legal instrument called 'Mandado de Segurança'.
I have written about it:
https://d1gesto.blogspot.com/2025/06/brazils-pix-system-face...
[0] https://www.gov.br/governodigital/pt-br/plataformas-e-servic...
Having an entity that’s sorta kinda government (I assume that the Brazilian Federal Bank is somewhat independent) develop and run Pix brings an interesting set of problems with it, including how it should be regulated and by whom. Open sourcing the platform’s software is only one form of audit/refulation. So maybe the source is secure and maybe another entity could run it but could another entity participate in the Pix network or would they have to establish their own separate one?
>>So maybe the source is secure and maybe another entity could run it but could another entity participate in the Pix network or would they have to establish their own separate one?
MInd you, the Central Bank of Brazil (BCB) does have administrative autonomy. But under Brazilian law, it still counts as part of the public administration when it comes to digital systems developed using public funds.
So the legal issue isn’t about how “independent” the BCB is — it's about the origin of the software and who paid for its development. If Pix was created exclusively by a government entity, Law 14.063/2021, Article 16 requires it to be released under an open-source license. That’s the core of my point — a legal compliance issue, not a technical or governance judgment.
As for your broader question: yes, open-sourcing the platform wouldn’t necessarily mean other entities could plug into Pix directly. Participation in the network still depends on BCB regulations, trust, compliance layers, and access controls. Open code is transparency, not necessarily interoperability.
But in a system as critical as Pix, open code would at least allow independent auditing, public scrutiny, and possibly innovation through forks or parallel implementations — even if those don’t run on the live network.
So I agree — it’s a multi-layered governance issue. But transparency of publicly funded code is a foundational first step. That’s what the law mandates — and what hasn’t yet been fulfilled.
MInd you, the Central Bank of Brazil (BCB) does have administrative autonomy. But under Brazilian law, it still counts as part of the public administration when it comes to digital systems developed using public funds.
So the legal issue isn’t about how “independent” the BCB is — it's about the origin of the software and who paid for its development. If Pix was created exclusively by a government entity, Law 14.063/2021, Article 16 requires it to be released under an open-source license. That’s the core of my point — a legal compliance issue, not a technical or governance judgment.
As for your broader question: yes, open-sourcing the platform wouldn’t necessarily mean other entities could plug into Pix directly. Participation in the network still depends on BCB regulations, trust, compliance layers, and access controls. Open code is transparency, not necessarily interoperability.
But in a system as critical as Pix, open code would at least allow independent auditing, public scrutiny, and possibly innovation through forks or parallel implementations — even if those don’t run on the live network.
So I agree — it’s a multi-layered governance issue. But transparency of publicly funded code is a foundational first step. That’s what the law mandates — and what hasn’t yet been fulfilled.
Similar things happen in the EU.
The EU Digital Wallet is open source. But this is not actually a wallet, but just an identity application. Then there are is Digital Euro and its wallets for which European Central Bank is willing to dump few billions of euros on closed source consultancyware.
The EU Digital Wallet is open source. But this is not actually a wallet, but just an identity application. Then there are is Digital Euro and its wallets for which European Central Bank is willing to dump few billions of euros on closed source consultancyware.
I don't think there's any legal exposure here. Article 16 of 14.063 gives an exception to code protected by Law 12.527/2011. Articles 22 and 23 seem to clearly allow for not releasing source code if that release risks the "financial, economic, or monetary" stability of the country.
Beyond that, Pix is so popular that I doubt a challenge would hold up in court. If it went to the STF, there's no way they wouldn't give Pix a carve out.
I'm as big a fan of open source as anyone else, but can we audit any other payment systems anywhere? Is that a reasonable expectation to have for payment systems?
Beyond that, Pix is so popular that I doubt a challenge would hold up in court. If it went to the STF, there's no way they wouldn't give Pix a carve out.
I'm as big a fan of open source as anyone else, but can we audit any other payment systems anywhere? Is that a reasonable expectation to have for payment systems?
You are complaining that the if the government publishes software it must be open source, and that data (without even looking at what data) can be requested by a judicial order?
I'm not complaining. Just pointing a legal requirement.
Edited
Edited
Oh, you are complaining that it's not currently open source.
Yeah, the government has a lot of software it still has to publish.
Yeah, the government has a lot of software it still has to publish.
Wasn't BCB breached for a couple hundred million reais this month, as well? Maybe they are trying to keep the code closed because they know it's insecure
> Wasn't BCB breached for a couple hundred million reais this month, as well? Maybe they are trying to keep the code closed because they know it's insecure
It wasn't a BCB breach. The issue was with an integrator. Like a client API built on top of it that provided banking features to fintech startups
It wasn't a BCB breach. The issue was with an integrator. Like a client API built on top of it that provided banking features to fintech startups
And it was only breached because criminals approached an IT guy from the affected bank and offered him R$5000 to hand out the passwords used to login to their internal systems. Once the hackers were inside, they had control of bank accounts and started moving money around.
So no, it wasn't a breach to BCB, neither it was caused by system insecurity, but rather, human error in a downstream implementation.
So no, it wasn't a breach to BCB, neither it was caused by system insecurity, but rather, human error in a downstream implementation.
Isn't it much more likely that a court would order the code published instead of restricting the use of an extremely popular payment system and brake half of the economy?
I mean, they blocked WhatsApp (95+% usage) before so who knows, but it seems unlikely it will actually affect the average person.
I mean, they blocked WhatsApp (95+% usage) before so who knows, but it seems unlikely it will actually affect the average person.
I mentioned 'Mandado de Segurança' not to suggest halting Pix, but because, yes, it's the relevant instrument in Brazilian law for forcing public agencies to comply with legal duties — in this case, transparency around public code. Courts would not block Pix itself unless something extreme happened. They might simply compel BCB to release the code if the legal conditions are met.
Systems like these are very common in Europe. Here in Norway, you can pay for almost anything, anywhere with Vipps. It works very similarly to Brazilian Pix. Another system I have used in the past is the Portuguese MBWay which although similar to Pix and Vipps, doesn’t seem to be as widely adopted as the former.
The problem is that most European schemes are country specific. As soon as you cross the border even to another European country, your options are pretty much cash or Visa/MasterCard.
We also have the same problem: technically, PIX is only inside our borders. The thing is our borders are huge!
In practice, people have started to accept it in Portugal, Argentina, Uruguai and some other places where people tend to have accounts both in their countries of residence and Brazil.
In practice, people have started to accept it in Portugal, Argentina, Uruguai and some other places where people tend to have accounts both in their countries of residence and Brazil.
Russia is bigger and has its own system of instant payments SBP, which has now completely substituted Visa, Mastercard etc and has some presence in 8-9 other countries (depending on whether you count Abkhazia as a country or not) with 50 foreign banks supporting it.
Russia is bigger in area but not in population.
Can’t argue with that, but I was replying to a comment about area specifically :)
Some places in France also accept Pix!
Also, Verifone PoS in the US will also accept Pix as well.
Also, Verifone PoS in the US will also accept Pix as well.
Yeah, the ECB just published[0] the latest report on the digital euro which is supposed to solve this across the eurozone and seems potentially quite cool, but it'll be years before it's reality.
0: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/progress/html/ec...
0: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/progress/html/ec...
Vipps now works across the Scandinavian countries, but I doubt it will be adopted by any other countries.
[deleted]
There is nothing for the Euro zone?
There are maestro cards, bank cards that work very conveniently including with nfc, including with Apple Pay. Given that Apple Pay supports multiple kinds of cards.. my phone probably works almost anywhere..
Maestro is owned by Mastercard (and are now being phased out for explicitly Mastercard branded cards). So like I said, cross border options are basically cash or Visa/Mastercard.
Same as pix then?
Interestingly, I've spotted a few places in Portugal already accepting Pix as a form of payment, catering to a large demographic of Brazilian immigrants and tourists.
There is no PIX in Portugal, or places other than Brazil.
What they have there is a Brazilian person receiving payments from another Brazilian person, only through Brazilian accounts, all happening remotely in Brazil(at least for now)
What they have there is a Brazilian person receiving payments from another Brazilian person, only through Brazilian accounts, all happening remotely in Brazil(at least for now)
What they have is a payment gateway that integrates the Portuguese and Brazilian payments by doing a transfer at each side.
It's the same thing as buying stuff from China with PIX, but the gateway is more hidden from the Portuguese accounts.
It's the same thing as buying stuff from China with PIX, but the gateway is more hidden from the Portuguese accounts.
There has been some talk of actually internationalising Pix, but from what I understand, those uses that exist now outside of Brazil are a kludge for the benefit of Brazilian tourists.
I don't think I know a single person that doesn't have MBWAY, but I'm younger than 30, so that might have something to do with it.
Even then, everywhere you go, unless they're really small or old places that still don't accept anything other than cash, you can pay with MBWAY, through a QR code or NFC. All POS terminals support that nowadays. You can even add an email address and VAT number and newer terminals automatically skip printing the customer receipt, send it to your email and give the VAT number to the merchant (not entirely sure how that last one works, but it's there).
Even then, everywhere you go, unless they're really small or old places that still don't accept anything other than cash, you can pay with MBWAY, through a QR code or NFC. All POS terminals support that nowadays. You can even add an email address and VAT number and newer terminals automatically skip printing the customer receipt, send it to your email and give the VAT number to the merchant (not entirely sure how that last one works, but it's there).
Now you know! :)
Interesting these platforms have existed for so long now (MBWay from 2014 and Pix 2016 if I’m not mistaken). I recall, back when it was launched, explaining it to friends in other countries (ie. UK) how good it was, not only the seamless payment network shared with friends, but also to be able to spin virtual cards with fixed value for online payments, and getting a puzzled reaction, “is that even legal?”
Developed countries (like the US) do have these capabilities, there's fed now in the US, but the banks have captured the government apparatus so that the government can't force it to become the default cos they wouldn't be making interest money on the cash they get to hold without instant payments.
Argentina, despite enduring ongoing economic and political challenges, has had a bank-to-bank transfer system since 1997. In 2018, it expanded to include Payment Service Providers (PSPs).
The second part "but the banks (in Developed countries) have captured the government apparatus" seems to be true mainly of the USA?
As SEPA in the EU, and Faster Payments in UK don't seem to fit that.
Unless you have other examples outside of the USA, or a different opinion on SEPA?
As SEPA in the EU, and Faster Payments in UK don't seem to fit that.
Unless you have other examples outside of the USA, or a different opinion on SEPA?
In Finland, I have to use Visa everywhere. Banks offer debit cards, but they use the Visa network. Some smaller sellers also accept Mobilepay, but its not very common.
> In Finland, I have to use Visa everywhere
Why? Finland is in SEPA.
Why? Finland is in SEPA.
I have never seen a store offering any payment method called "SEPA". After reading up on it, it just looks like some protocol to do bank transfers between countries, and it requires exchanging IBAN numbers. I do pay rent and some bills via direct bank transfer, but that's it. Its nothing like this Brazilian payment alternative.
Yes, that's correct it's a protocol, it's under the hood. You won't see a SEPA Branding (or "Faster Payments" in the UK).
It's for bank transfers between accounts, which could be in the same country, or not. If you do a bank transfer of e.g. a 3-digit sum, and it arrives the same day, that's SEPA. If it's in a few seconds, that's SEPA Instant (1).
The grandparent post about "these capabilities" - specifically in comparison to the US FedNow -seems to cover more than just point-of-sale, right? Although that is mentioned in the SEPA Instant use cases.
1) https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/what-we-do/sepa-insta...
It's for bank transfers between accounts, which could be in the same country, or not. If you do a bank transfer of e.g. a 3-digit sum, and it arrives the same day, that's SEPA. If it's in a few seconds, that's SEPA Instant (1).
The grandparent post about "these capabilities" - specifically in comparison to the US FedNow -seems to cover more than just point-of-sale, right? Although that is mentioned in the SEPA Instant use cases.
1) https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/what-we-do/sepa-insta...
Poland has the fantastic BLIK system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blik
Used country-wide, it's popular enough that global stores allow using it, like AliExpress or Steam.
Is it only available in Polish złoty for Polish citizens? Or could I, from a different EU country, open an account and use it to pay for games on Steam? My guess would be no, but it's worth asking.
It's supported by polish banks for PLN accounts, but I don't think there's a requirement to be a citizen to open an account. I know Revolut also allows using it, if you create a PLN account in it.
Revolut will only offer BLIK if your address is in Poland, it's not enough to just open a PLN subaccount. Same with Wero, it is only shown for customers in Germany and France IIRC. I have no idea why they did it like that, the backend clearly supports them all.
PSP S.A. is expanding abroad, so perhaps BLIK will be available in more countries in some time: "In September, the first BLIK transaction was made in Slovakia, and BLIK Romania S.A. received authorization from the National Bank of Romania to operate in the country. In November, the Polish Payments Standard transformed into a joint stock company, to support the execution of its strategic goals." [1] [2]
BLIK has one ugly caveat, though: it has no chargeback procedure.
[1] Year 2024.
[2] https://www.blik.com/en/about-us#id-15ce9a61-2597-11f0-8657-...
BLIK has one ugly caveat, though: it has no chargeback procedure.
[1] Year 2024.
[2] https://www.blik.com/en/about-us#id-15ce9a61-2597-11f0-8657-...
> … CCs should be an exception, not the norm they are now, with a bunch of embedded costs we all pay for, one way or another.
To spell it out, the merchant pays fees to the payment processor and carries risk (chargebacks, etc) and these costs are included (“embedded”) in the purchase price of whatever you’re buying.
Moving to instant pay moves these risks to the purchaser, which is probably not ideal for the merchant because it forces purchasers to be more careful with their spending. New merchants in particular would have to work harder to establish their reputation. Larger merchants would probably start offering credit again.
Where “insta pay” shines is for merchants with less credit worthy customers, because it allows them to operate online and in an electronic world. Currently in the U.S. that job is done with cash, but perhaps very soon with privately issued stablecoins. I guess the big question is whether the U.S. government should issue a stablecoin or similar electronic cash-like thing.
To spell it out, the merchant pays fees to the payment processor and carries risk (chargebacks, etc) and these costs are included (“embedded”) in the purchase price of whatever you’re buying.
Moving to instant pay moves these risks to the purchaser, which is probably not ideal for the merchant because it forces purchasers to be more careful with their spending. New merchants in particular would have to work harder to establish their reputation. Larger merchants would probably start offering credit again.
Where “insta pay” shines is for merchants with less credit worthy customers, because it allows them to operate online and in an electronic world. Currently in the U.S. that job is done with cash, but perhaps very soon with privately issued stablecoins. I guess the big question is whether the U.S. government should issue a stablecoin or similar electronic cash-like thing.
It is just better in my experience.
You just scan a QR code and pay.
Not much point of using a credit card unless you want to spend money that you don’t have. Or to think you are making “points” by spending more money
You just scan a QR code and pay.
Not much point of using a credit card unless you want to spend money that you don’t have. Or to think you are making “points” by spending more money
You're wasting a relevant amount of money by not using a credit card in Brazil. Interest rates are so high right now they have reached 1% monthly, which you can pocket by just delaying payment on everything for a month. And credit is stupid cheap here, too, with a bunch of different picks for free credit cards giving thousands of reais for anyone.
If you have some money you can easily get a card with high cashback, as well, in the 1%+ territory depending on if you want big banks or not, and pay no fees.
If you have some money you can easily get a card with high cashback, as well, in the 1%+ territory depending on if you want big banks or not, and pay no fees.
Some places give you a discount if you buy things on Pix. Buying on CC is kinda an illusion.
It's more worth to buy things with Pix, and use things like Inter/Meliuz to use 10%~ cashback on stores...
(of course, if you don't want to use insurance or installments).
Btw, my father produce furniture and industrial products, and we always make the price clear to the customer, including what the price would be depending on the payment method. It might not be ideal, but… we prefer to give the transparency to the clients. Because of this, I do say 90% of the clients these days pay only with Pix. A few years ago it was all CC or debit cards.
It's more worth to buy things with Pix, and use things like Inter/Meliuz to use 10%~ cashback on stores...
(of course, if you don't want to use insurance or installments).
Btw, my father produce furniture and industrial products, and we always make the price clear to the customer, including what the price would be depending on the payment method. It might not be ideal, but… we prefer to give the transparency to the clients. Because of this, I do say 90% of the clients these days pay only with Pix. A few years ago it was all CC or debit cards.
Not always. I tried to buy a laptop on Lenovo's website. They rejected my credit cards several times, despite my Serasa credit rating maxed out, etc etc.
But then they offered me the laptop with enough discount that was a no brainer. I obviously calculated the difference between 1x, 12x with the hidden interest - cashback and Pix.
So 3 days lost trying to buy the thing, then instant approval and next day delivery when I paid with Pix.
When I bought the NSW2 on pre sale, it was better to use installments, get some cashback, etc.
But then they offered me the laptop with enough discount that was a no brainer. I obviously calculated the difference between 1x, 12x with the hidden interest - cashback and Pix.
So 3 days lost trying to buy the thing, then instant approval and next day delivery when I paid with Pix.
When I bought the NSW2 on pre sale, it was better to use installments, get some cashback, etc.
I meant for everyday stuff, not larger purchases where discounts may apply, I may have oversimplified. I do buy stuff with Pix now and then, but day-to-day NFC credit is my go-to
I live in central Asia, inflation is very low where I live.
But yeah I get the point. It was similar in Turkey, but still wasn’t that valuable to save 1% unless you are really trying to squeeze hard
But yeah I get the point. It was similar in Turkey, but still wasn’t that valuable to save 1% unless you are really trying to squeeze hard
>It is just better in my experience.
>You just scan a QR code and pay.
Tap to pay (ie. NFC) with credit cards is as convenient and arguably more convenient than a QR code solution. At the very least you don't have to worry about aiming at the QR code and waiting for it to scan/focus, which is especially important if you're using it on transit systems.
>You just scan a QR code and pay.
Tap to pay (ie. NFC) with credit cards is as convenient and arguably more convenient than a QR code solution. At the very least you don't have to worry about aiming at the QR code and waiting for it to scan/focus, which is especially important if you're using it on transit systems.
Pix already has tap to pay [1]. However it's still a recent adition (a few months), so most card machines still don't support it (AFAIK).
Once this is widespread, then the only reasons to use credit will be cashback/points or paying in credit.
[1] https://www.gov.br/secom/pt-br/assuntos/noticias/2025/02/pix...
Once this is widespread, then the only reasons to use credit will be cashback/points or paying in credit.
[1] https://www.gov.br/secom/pt-br/assuntos/noticias/2025/02/pix...
Most card machines support it. The PoS just need to accept Google Pay and it will accept it.
Still prefer a debit card for this, credit aspect just hasn’t been of any use to me so far. And I see people getting into problem because of credit cards a lot.
You can use Tap to Pay with Pix. Although only Google Pay support Pix solution. Apple Pay is refusing because... fees.
This also doesn't require functional cell service.
Tap to pay leaves you at the mercy of all the usual bullshit credit card processors impose.
What means that if you have a very normal behavior, yes, it's more convenient. If you deviate from the norm in any way, it's an unreliable piece of shit that will leave you hanging without money the moment you need it most.
And as deviant people drop out of that system, the bar for deviance gets lower and lower.
What means that if you have a very normal behavior, yes, it's more convenient. If you deviate from the norm in any way, it's an unreliable piece of shit that will leave you hanging without money the moment you need it most.
And as deviant people drop out of that system, the bar for deviance gets lower and lower.
>Tap to pay leaves you at the mercy of all the usual bullshit credit card processors impose.
1. "Tap to pay" refers to a technology, specifically NFC communications. Anyone can use it, not just "credit card processors". For instance, many transit agencies also use NFC for their passes/tickets, and those obviously aren't being intermediated by "credit card processors".
2. Any sort of centralized system will be susceptible to "all the usual bullshit credit card processors impose". At least with credit card companies there's theoretically a degree of independence from the government. A government run payments system, staffed by government appointed cronies would be even more susceptible to government pressure to block certain groups.
1. "Tap to pay" refers to a technology, specifically NFC communications. Anyone can use it, not just "credit card processors". For instance, many transit agencies also use NFC for their passes/tickets, and those obviously aren't being intermediated by "credit card processors".
2. Any sort of centralized system will be susceptible to "all the usual bullshit credit card processors impose". At least with credit card companies there's theoretically a degree of independence from the government. A government run payments system, staffed by government appointed cronies would be even more susceptible to government pressure to block certain groups.
> Not much point of using a credit card unless you want to spend money that you don’t have.
This is absolutely not why millions of people use credit cards. To repeat: Immediately handing cash to a merchant carries risk for the purchaser. What if the product is defective, or the order never filled, etc?
This is absolutely not why millions of people use credit cards. To repeat: Immediately handing cash to a merchant carries risk for the purchaser. What if the product is defective, or the order never filled, etc?
This is really not a issue in Brazil. Consumers laws are strong. I actually prefer to use Pix for exact this reason, because I can get the refund in 1 second, literally (already did with Amazon). While with credit cards that's not the case.
So the merchant is assuming more risk because the customer can take back their money... How long does the merchant need to wait before they're certain the payment they have received can't be taken back?
If is online, over the phone, etc., you can return or cancel for any reason within 7 days. And this also include services. For example, if I sign up with a new ISP, I can cancel it within that 7-day period (even if it have a 1 year contract).
If it's in-person you bought something, technically you can only return up to 30 days for non durable goods, and 90 days for durable goods, if there's some problems with the product, or a reason etc.
If it's in-person you bought something, technically you can only return up to 30 days for non durable goods, and 90 days for durable goods, if there's some problems with the product, or a reason etc.
With stronger consumer protection laws I will just send the thing back. If the merchant does not honor, is an easy case to win on the small claims courts.
The risk is buying from shady merchants and platforms that don't care about the legal system, or can delay the resolution of the dispute.
For instance buying from China on AliExpress, I will obviously not use Pix (through AliPay), but my credit card.
The risk is buying from shady merchants and platforms that don't care about the legal system, or can delay the resolution of the dispute.
For instance buying from China on AliExpress, I will obviously not use Pix (through AliPay), but my credit card.
At least in the UK, one advantage of the credit card is that it puts the transaction under the consumer credit act. That means that for purchases above 100 quid the credit card company is jointly on the hook with the supplier if, for example, the supplier fails to deliver the goods because they go bust, or if the goods are faulty, and you can get your money back from the credit card company if necessary. This doesn't apply for debit card purchases.
The thing with a credit card, is that when I buy something online, or it never gets delivered, or turns out to be crap, I can get the credit card company to reimburse me.
And in person, if someone manages to copy it and fraud me, I can also get it resolved and have the credit card company pay me back.
Do these instant payment system offer similar protections?
And in person, if someone manages to copy it and fraud me, I can also get it resolved and have the credit card company pay me back.
Do these instant payment system offer similar protections?
There's the small claims courts for that, strong consumer protection laws.
Also some banks are offering insurance on trial basis already.
But yeah, I prefer CC on international platforms, or if the cashback is higher than the discount they offer via Pix (5% to 20%).
Lenovo offered me 20% on a Laptop recently through Pix.
With the discount I paid a bit more on broader support, keep your disks, liquid damage protection.
Also some banks are offering insurance on trial basis already.
But yeah, I prefer CC on international platforms, or if the cashback is higher than the discount they offer via Pix (5% to 20%).
Lenovo offered me 20% on a Laptop recently through Pix.
With the discount I paid a bit more on broader support, keep your disks, liquid damage protection.
And from someone who lived in Brazil. Small claims court fucking suck. A kafkian nightmare compared to a chargeback.
New merchants are then hit with fraudulent chargebacks with ridiculous fees (they are ridiculous for small purchases) and all the benefits of credits cads evaporate for a merchant.
Being more careful with purchases is a net benefit to society in general.
Being more careful with purchases is a net benefit to society in general.
Thanks, just learned about this in the states:
https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.h...
https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.h...
It’s a shame that it isn’t used.
I just learned about this. Looks like this system is only available to banks, and they would have no incentive to break the old system by being quick to implement this. If the Federal Reserve provided this directly to individuals, then we'd have a lot of new payment apps that bypasses the middle network (that would be a paradigm shift).
The point about Pix, it's that Central Bank made it mandatory to all banks with over 500k clients if I recall (smaller banks already wanted of course).
Besides the branding (which tbh it's a big deal), also made guidelines requirements on how the banks needed to implement. Exactly so they couldn't hide or made it worse to use.
Besides the branding (which tbh it's a big deal), also made guidelines requirements on how the banks needed to implement. Exactly so they couldn't hide or made it worse to use.
This was a whole controversy in Brazil. There was a conspiracy theory that the banks wanted to sabotage the Pix rollout because they would lose out on the fees for using the old transaction systems. In any case, there is a lot more money circulating through the banks now.
It is brand new, released in 2023. It is a backend protocol, it requires every bank to implement the protocol. And there are some big changes compared to ACH, like having to present requests to the user. Or how to deal with reversals.
Malaysia has duitnow which they recently started making it international. You can buy a coffee in Thailand with a duitnow wallet (ie: BigPay). It is also integrated with AliPay, so you can pay wherever AliPay is accepted (most of China).
I honestly think, at this point, they should just drop the bomb; take their currency to the blockchain (stablecoin) and make the wallets fully connectable to the crypto ecosystem. China doesn't seem keen to take a more open role to capital markets, so there is a void there.
I honestly think, at this point, they should just drop the bomb; take their currency to the blockchain (stablecoin) and make the wallets fully connectable to the crypto ecosystem. China doesn't seem keen to take a more open role to capital markets, so there is a void there.
While it is a private service by a company called Mercado Libre (which means Free Market), in Argentina we have Mercado Pago (which means Market Pay), has instant payments and it is free for 99% of the people that do P2P transactions. It is free for anyone, meaning, you don't pay to use it. You only need your national document. Of course, after seeing the success, the banks tried to implement MODO, but it was already too late.
Mercado Pago is closer to PayPal than PIX. I'd say it's a generation behind Google Pay/Apple Pay.
This. Mercado Pago is also available in Brazil, and it requires you deposit funds in their own account to use.
The thing about PIX most people don't get, including Europeans in this thread, is it integrates into whatever is your bank, so you can use your bank's cashing account to pay, no external app or account necessary.
The thing about PIX most people don't get, including Europeans in this thread, is it integrates into whatever is your bank, so you can use your bank's cashing account to pay, no external app or account necessary.
In sweden we got Swish which is instant payments. But costs money when business use it (but cheaper than credit cards i think)
> This is hands down one of the best instant payment platforms at the moment. Only India's UPI can match it in features, and China and Thailand in adoption.
I'm not familiar with Pix or UPI, so out of curiosity, how are they better than Alipay/WeChat Pay (which I am familiar with)?
I'm not familiar with Pix or UPI, so out of curiosity, how are they better than Alipay/WeChat Pay (which I am familiar with)?
I can answer for UPI.
Unlike AliPay/WeeChat, the central agency (NCPI) only maintains the API. Businesses are free to develop apps on top. In India, there are 50s of apps enabling UPI transactions. You are free to download whatever app you prefer unlike AliPay/WeeChat duopoly.
Same for PIX. It's a payment protocol. Any fintech can build on top and support it.
[deleted]
agreed. Additionally it may reduce the power of fringe groups from pressuring private companies who are doing legal business. The recent Steam and itch.io takedowns due to collective shout come to mind.
Credit cards give me cashback, worldwide acceptance and peace of mind. The country I live in, Switzerland, has a very widely accepted QR-based payment system... but credit cards (in mobile wallets) are more convenient, safer, faster. The only time I use the QR codes is when a merchant doesn't have a card terminal.
The cashback you are given back is taken from a fraction of the fee levied on merchants by the Payment Processing company they use.
The only thing holding this system together is the lobby (also funded by a part of the aforementioned fee on merchants) by the Payment Processing industry to uphold laws that prohibit more expensive payments for more expensive payment methods, and also the extensive marketing (funded by guess what).
It's an extremely simple yet ingrained system, and the only way to topple it and stop paying hidden costs thinking you're getting an extremely good deal on cashback, is to peel back the curtains and realize it, and make most of the politically-active part of the country's population to do so too.
Credit card isn't more expensive than its main competitor, cash, though. It's just the costs of credit card acceptance are transparently added to each transaction, while the costs of cash are distributed over the whole day's cash transactions and so more opaque.
Merchants have a psychological (and in some countries, legal) barrier to charging more for cash than other payment methods, even though it's the least efficient. Given this, cash-back is the best way to share the efficiency gains with the end user. Maybe if Pix or Twint or debit cards or what-have-you are so efficient, they should also give consumers cashback.
Merchants have a psychological (and in some countries, legal) barrier to charging more for cash than other payment methods, even though it's the least efficient. Given this, cash-back is the best way to share the efficiency gains with the end user. Maybe if Pix or Twint or debit cards or what-have-you are so efficient, they should also give consumers cashback.
Cashback is just giving part of the profit margin of the fees charged on the transactions to the customer. I would rather that profit margin gets split between the customer (lower prices) and merchant. Also, didn't the EU eliminate cashbacks by precisely price capping transaction fees?
I've seen merchants giving a discount for payment with Pix. And a few stores refuse credit cards and only accept debit and Pix (and cash?).
Also, isn't the main competitor to CC the debit card? And now in some countries instant payments? Is debit that rare in the US?
Although to be honest I'm not 100% sure if it isn't some tax evasion thing.
I've seen merchants giving a discount for payment with Pix. And a few stores refuse credit cards and only accept debit and Pix (and cash?).
Also, isn't the main competitor to CC the debit card? And now in some countries instant payments? Is debit that rare in the US?
Although to be honest I'm not 100% sure if it isn't some tax evasion thing.
It could give cashback if it cost 3% of the transaction. But it’s it’s actually much cheaper. For credit cards you have to pay for the brand, the issuer and the acquirer. And each gets a nice cut.
Reducing merchant fees seems like a mistake if you are in competition with both cash (which has high intrinsic merchant costs) and credit cards (which has low intrinsic costs, but which are padded so they're closer to the costs of cash, with consumer cashback coming out of this padding). I'm certainly not going to _choose_ to receive less cashback, as a consumer.
Pix costs are very low and the fee for the merchant as well. They pay less for it and get the money instantly. That’s why many small merchants only accept pix and some big merchants offer discounts for payments using it.
Discounts for Pix vs cash sound cool and a fine alternative to cashback via the payment system. Though I can imagine this might be hard in some countries, where there is a strong pro-cash lobby.
I mean, the cashback is paid for out of the fees you pay for the service. In a world with low capped charges (EU etc) then you'll just pay less, which is equivalent to cashback and much fairer.
So long as the price is the same for cash and card (and Pix?), then you should pick the one that gives you the best kickbacks. I don't think capping CC fees will actually lower prices for consumers much (because merchants prefer round prices for psychological pricing). For evidence, see the fairly uniform pricing of products sold in euros between countries, despite varying vat rates between eurozone countries.
> see the fairly uniform pricing of products sold in euros between countries, despite varying vat rates between eurozone countries.
Huh, not sure I agree with that (the uniform pricing thing). I mean, one should believe that, but it doesn't appear to be true. For example, recently I saw a tablet for 208 euro (converted from GBP) on amazon.co.uk, approx 220 euro from amazon.de and 360 euro from amazon.ie, for the same item.
I was really surprised because I figured electronics would be pretty similarly priced across the EU/UK, but apparently not.
Huh, not sure I agree with that (the uniform pricing thing). I mean, one should believe that, but it doesn't appear to be true. For example, recently I saw a tablet for 208 euro (converted from GBP) on amazon.co.uk, approx 220 euro from amazon.de and 360 euro from amazon.ie, for the same item.
I was really surprised because I figured electronics would be pretty similarly priced across the EU/UK, but apparently not.
I don't think you mean transparently - credit card costs are invisibly added..
But, who do you get to call in a world like that? I think the West really likes customer service and security.
Why do you think PIX doesn’t have customer service or security? It’s regulated by the central bank but operated by private companies.
Suspicious transactions are a legitimate use-case for payment processing. If you don't fully trust who you're buying from, the scam preventions, chargebacks, refunds etc. work fine. But buying lunch or small chocolates, cigarretes etc with credit cards is INSANE.
Yes. But credit cards have high costs for the merchant. Thats why they get to give us cashback. It depends on the country, but the cut rate goes from 1% (in europe) to 3% in Brazil.
And the merchant gets the money after a long time. It is possible to advance the payment but the rates are much higher (10%+).
So, i dont think we can even think of credit cards as instant payment. And it has mich higher costs that, in the end, go back to the consumers.
And the merchant gets the money after a long time. It is possible to advance the payment but the rates are much higher (10%+).
So, i dont think we can even think of credit cards as instant payment. And it has mich higher costs that, in the end, go back to the consumers.
Bear in mind that Brazil is a poor country. Cashback and worldwide acceptance is not what 90% brasillians need.
You are right about convenience, but here, 1% fee makes a huge difference to make both ends meet.
You can give alms with pix, to show how widespread pix is.
You are right about convenience, but here, 1% fee makes a huge difference to make both ends meet.
You can give alms with pix, to show how widespread pix is.
Brazil is actually a pretty rich country. It's just that the wealth is exceptionally highly concentrated at the top. Brazil has enormous resources and potential, but all that potential gets sucked up by the big boys in their club. Although I know what you mean, it's important to distinguish Brazil from a genuinely poor-all-over country where there is not much wealth anywhere. Even in poor or average neighbourhoods in the big cities, you can see a person with nothing and then another person drive by in a BMW.
[deleted]
It’s more like 3% if you receive the money after 30 data and 10% if you get it in the best day.
> Credit cards give me cashback, worldwide acceptance and peace of mind.
That's because you (and everyone else in Switzerland, even those paying cash) is eating a 2-3% merchant fee markup. In the civilised world like the EU, where credit card interchange fees are capped of 0.3%, those cashback benefits (which is, again, your money you've just paid) don't exist.
> worldwide acceptance
For now, at a huge economy-wide cost. That skimmed 2-3% is what Trump is trying to protect.
> peace of mind
That's also country-dependent. In many countries, credit card transactions have no additional protections and chargebacks aren't the magic bullet they are in some.
> more convenient, safer, faster.
Pix is more convenient, safer (much, much safer and lower risk of fraud), and faster than credit cards. Cheaper too.
That's because you (and everyone else in Switzerland, even those paying cash) is eating a 2-3% merchant fee markup. In the civilised world like the EU, where credit card interchange fees are capped of 0.3%, those cashback benefits (which is, again, your money you've just paid) don't exist.
> worldwide acceptance
For now, at a huge economy-wide cost. That skimmed 2-3% is what Trump is trying to protect.
> peace of mind
That's also country-dependent. In many countries, credit card transactions have no additional protections and chargebacks aren't the magic bullet they are in some.
> more convenient, safer, faster.
Pix is more convenient, safer (much, much safer and lower risk of fraud), and faster than credit cards. Cheaper too.
Switzerland has interchange fees of 0.4% for consumer credit cards (by contactless, only slightly higher by chip+pin): https://www.visaeurope.ch/content/dam/VCOM/regional/ve/unite..., https://www.mastercard.com/content/dam/public/mastercardcom/.... And yet banks offer 0.33% cashback cards: https://certo-card.ch/one.
And let's not forget that cash acceptance costs an order of magnitude more than this anyway; if anything businesses should charge surcharges for accepting cash, not the other way around, and given the social constraint of no surcharges, cashback is a fair mechanism to reward efficient payment methods.
And let's not forget that cash acceptance costs an order of magnitude more than this anyway; if anything businesses should charge surcharges for accepting cash, not the other way around, and given the social constraint of no surcharges, cashback is a fair mechanism to reward efficient payment methods.
> Switzerland has interchange fees of 0.4% for consumer credit cards
Only since Wednesday of this week due to COMCO action, so no-one knows if cashback will persist, but it will be a lot less than .33%.
> And let's not forget that cash acceptance costs an order of magnitude more than this anyway;
In the EU, it's .5% for cash vs .3% for cards, but the situation falls back into favour for cash once fraud is accounted for.
Only since Wednesday of this week due to COMCO action, so no-one knows if cashback will persist, but it will be a lot less than .33%.
> And let's not forget that cash acceptance costs an order of magnitude more than this anyway;
In the EU, it's .5% for cash vs .3% for cards, but the situation falls back into favour for cash once fraud is accounted for.
Yeah but Twint is a piece of crap. Maybe Pix or Alipay are faster to use. But I agree, Apple Pay is pretty much perfect in terms of UX for in-store and especially for online payments.
Russia has had a similar system for some time now.
The best instant payment system is cash. It allows the merchant to skip the taxes too. Unbeatable.
Cash is a hassle. It requires everyone to have change. You need to count the money, the cashier needs to count the money and store it. The line behind you gets longer. The end of day close-out process is longer.
Brazilians also generally don't like to walk with cash in their pockets. Only politicians usually do it, but in their underpants.
The pros is that cash is analog, no battery, internet connection or digital system needed to process it.
Brazilians also generally don't like to walk with cash in their pockets. Only politicians usually do it, but in their underpants.
The pros is that cash is analog, no battery, internet connection or digital system needed to process it.
Also theft/robbery.
Not that Pix isn't a risk, being forced to do bank transactions at gunpoint is a thing now, but anyway.
Not that Pix isn't a risk, being forced to do bank transactions at gunpoint is a thing now, but anyway.
Cash is king - but security is an issue unless you are dealing with small amounts.
Also allows the employees to skip paying the business too.
I believe the greatest story behind Brazil's Pix, India's UPI and Kenya's Mpesa is the emergence of a lot new forms of money.
We will have strong national currencies supported by these payment systems, destroying Visa and Mastercard and hurting PayPal, Apple Pay and Google Pay. These systems have a lot more potential than most people imagine (e.g.: micro lending , even for illiterate people).
We will have "gangster money", a.k.a. crypto currencies, to sustain illegal activities. There is no other use case for crypto, only this.
And we will probably have "economic blocs" money (e.g.: whatever thing the BRICS come up with).
In this scenario I'd hope for a big change in the international payments system.
The dollar will not have one rival, will have many. I hope it dies by a thousand cuts.
We will have strong national currencies supported by these payment systems, destroying Visa and Mastercard and hurting PayPal, Apple Pay and Google Pay. These systems have a lot more potential than most people imagine (e.g.: micro lending , even for illiterate people).
We will have "gangster money", a.k.a. crypto currencies, to sustain illegal activities. There is no other use case for crypto, only this.
And we will probably have "economic blocs" money (e.g.: whatever thing the BRICS come up with).
In this scenario I'd hope for a big change in the international payments system.
The dollar will not have one rival, will have many. I hope it dies by a thousand cuts.
One of the key benefits of India’s UPI is that it’s removed the middle man when it comes to benefits to the poor which has drastically reduced corruption and ensured the money goes to the people it’s supposed to.
The West likes to paint the government success in India around religious terms, but in reality, it’s the actual improvement in life driven significantly by the adoption of UPI that’s played the biggest role.
The West likes to paint the government success in India around religious terms, but in reality, it’s the actual improvement in life driven significantly by the adoption of UPI that’s played the biggest role.
>The West likes to paint the government success in India around religious terms
Examples? The only discussion of "religious terms" around Indian coverage by western media is about how the ruling party BJP panders to "Hindu nationalism", which can be simultaneously true alongside competent leadership.
Examples? The only discussion of "religious terms" around Indian coverage by western media is about how the ruling party BJP panders to "Hindu nationalism", which can be simultaneously true alongside competent leadership.
How has UPI reduced corruption? Please enlighten me.
About Pix, I think people forget really how useful it can be to different things.
You can sign documents with Pix! ClickSign and others support it. You can just send 1 cent, and this can be one of the possibilities to sign documents!
https://ajuda.clicksign.com/article/558-assinando-um-documen...
You can sign documents with Pix! ClickSign and others support it. You can just send 1 cent, and this can be one of the possibilities to sign documents!
https://ajuda.clicksign.com/article/558-assinando-um-documen...
i hope this kills our notarization cartel, damn.
> There is no other use case for crypto, only this.
I'm sorry but last few months have done nothing if not demonstrate the need for crypto currency, aka digital cash. It may not be ready, but it is likely the only path forward. In the meantime Monero is relatively stable, sufficiently anonymous, and has comparatively low transaction fees.
The monopoly of existing payment processors cannot continue. They have a stranglehold on fees and issue cards that promote economically harmful activities. They and contactless payment processors sell your data. And now they control what you can and can't purchase.
Enter national digital currencies such as as the proposed CBDC. Fear-mongering sites making such outlandish claims [1]. So I do a bit of research, and find [2]... wait, what?
"In addition, it [full anonymity] would make it virtually impossible to limit the use of the digital euro as a form of investment – a limitation that is essential from a financial stability perspective."
Suddenly I trust [3] so much less. The technical controls required to implement inventory limits would just as easily enable expiration dates and automatic devaluation, or whatever overreach governments deem necessary down their slippery slope.
1. https://www.financemagnates.com/fintech/payments/cash-with-a...
2. https://www.financemagnates.com/fintech/payments/cash-with-a...
3. https://becid.eu/facts/fact-check-is-the-central-banks-aim-f...
Where does Pix fall in this spectrum?
I'm sorry but last few months have done nothing if not demonstrate the need for crypto currency, aka digital cash. It may not be ready, but it is likely the only path forward. In the meantime Monero is relatively stable, sufficiently anonymous, and has comparatively low transaction fees.
The monopoly of existing payment processors cannot continue. They have a stranglehold on fees and issue cards that promote economically harmful activities. They and contactless payment processors sell your data. And now they control what you can and can't purchase.
Enter national digital currencies such as as the proposed CBDC. Fear-mongering sites making such outlandish claims [1]. So I do a bit of research, and find [2]... wait, what?
"In addition, it [full anonymity] would make it virtually impossible to limit the use of the digital euro as a form of investment – a limitation that is essential from a financial stability perspective."
Suddenly I trust [3] so much less. The technical controls required to implement inventory limits would just as easily enable expiration dates and automatic devaluation, or whatever overreach governments deem necessary down their slippery slope.
1. https://www.financemagnates.com/fintech/payments/cash-with-a...
2. https://www.financemagnates.com/fintech/payments/cash-with-a...
3. https://becid.eu/facts/fact-check-is-the-central-banks-aim-f...
Where does Pix fall in this spectrum?
I find it interesting your very narrow view of cryptocurrencies given the things you're excited about.
Don't let the bad shit (and, holy shit, there is a lot) distract from the potential.
Don't let the bad shit (and, holy shit, there is a lot) distract from the potential.
Last week Trump targeted Pix and Brazil for discriminating against Mastercard and Visa[0]. Also last week there was the Steam debacle involving the same two companies which brought attention to the power that this duopoly holds all across the world. In Brazil many people, if not the majority use interest free instalments to pay for anything above groceries - “parcelas”, all of which, until now, were done through Mastercard & Visa. So this is yet another blow to these companies and perhaps accelerated by Trump’s threats.
It also highlights how desperately the EU is behind other countries in this space, with the news of the dependence on Azure and their aims to decouple from the US.
It’s a nice apt story for what’s being going on this last week.
[0] https://www.ft.com/content/e17e6de1-d863-46f8-bfab-fa8cbfc49...
It also highlights how desperately the EU is behind other countries in this space, with the news of the dependence on Azure and their aims to decouple from the US.
It’s a nice apt story for what’s being going on this last week.
[0] https://www.ft.com/content/e17e6de1-d863-46f8-bfab-fa8cbfc49...
> discriminating against Mastercard and Visa
how can you discriminate against a duopoly ;)
> It also highlights how desperately the EU is behind other countries in this space,
(you seem to be drifting into the server center topic but I will take "this space" as payment processing)
It's complicated, EU has many payment standards which 1) are required between banks, and 2) theoretically allow integration with new payment processing methods needing only the end-users agreement not the banks. So you can relatively easily send money between people (and to company accounts, too) without touching visa/mastercard at all (how easy that "relative part" does still vary a lot tho. (Also if you are willing to pay a fixed up price (commonly free or 15ct) also fast, like in seconds).
At the same time when it comes to 1) banking cards, 2) payment terminals, pretty much everything is build on Mastercard/Visa (where I live mostly Visa). Like there is no competition when it comes to the secure chips this systems use. (But then both PayPall and pretty much all of China have kinda shown you don't really need them as long as you have internet, which payment terminal often need to for any non very small payment amounts). Also because people are so used to a well working reasonable secure card payment system many tries to push for app based alternatives kinda fail, sure due to their dominant position in online shopping Paypal is still a thing, but also commonly relegate to at most one of multiple options in online shopping. Just to be clear the exact dynamics differ _vastly_ between country in the EU.
Any I really don't like the generic pay in rates functionality, it's a trap which really can fuck up peoples life (similar to using the dipso all the time/not getting out of it, or large credit boundary or however it's called for credit cards; to be honest dispo tends to be worse tho).
how can you discriminate against a duopoly ;)
> It also highlights how desperately the EU is behind other countries in this space,
(you seem to be drifting into the server center topic but I will take "this space" as payment processing)
It's complicated, EU has many payment standards which 1) are required between banks, and 2) theoretically allow integration with new payment processing methods needing only the end-users agreement not the banks. So you can relatively easily send money between people (and to company accounts, too) without touching visa/mastercard at all (how easy that "relative part" does still vary a lot tho. (Also if you are willing to pay a fixed up price (commonly free or 15ct) also fast, like in seconds).
At the same time when it comes to 1) banking cards, 2) payment terminals, pretty much everything is build on Mastercard/Visa (where I live mostly Visa). Like there is no competition when it comes to the secure chips this systems use. (But then both PayPall and pretty much all of China have kinda shown you don't really need them as long as you have internet, which payment terminal often need to for any non very small payment amounts). Also because people are so used to a well working reasonable secure card payment system many tries to push for app based alternatives kinda fail, sure due to their dominant position in online shopping Paypal is still a thing, but also commonly relegate to at most one of multiple options in online shopping. Just to be clear the exact dynamics differ _vastly_ between country in the EU.
Any I really don't like the generic pay in rates functionality, it's a trap which really can fuck up peoples life (similar to using the dipso all the time/not getting out of it, or large credit boundary or however it's called for credit cards; to be honest dispo tends to be worse tho).
EU is building Wero to replace all the national payment systems.
It uses sepa under the hood.
https://wero-wallet.eu/
https://wero-wallet.eu/
"interest free" deserves quotes. It appears to be so because the installments have the same value but in reality it's priced in the overall length vs price.
The installment culture is so pervasive in Brazil a lot of places don't even bother to show the full price (a vista). And some of them refuse to give a discount if you want to pay the full price now. Not because it doesn't make economic sense, but it's simply not an option a regular employee in major retail stores is even allowed to do, as companies default marketing and systems to installment payments.
The installment culture is so pervasive in Brazil a lot of places don't even bother to show the full price (a vista). And some of them refuse to give a discount if you want to pay the full price now. Not because it doesn't make economic sense, but it's simply not an option a regular employee in major retail stores is even allowed to do, as companies default marketing and systems to installment payments.
Europe and the UK have instant SEPA credits and debits, no? That's 41 countries within the single instant payment system.
https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/integration/retail/instant_pa...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area
https://www.pymnts.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/PYMNTS-Rea...
https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/integration/retail/instant_pa...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area
https://www.pymnts.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/PYMNTS-Rea...
yes, but at the moment the user facing interfaces are not greate (in most countries, they are pretty good in some countries)
- sending money (P2P, P2B, B2B) often requires manually entering a IBAN in your banking app/website (_except in some countries_, and some systems on top of it can also reduce the friction) which is okay for many P2P use cases but not good for physical shop checkout P2B use case or ad hoc bill sharing use case in P2P (also compared to some other solutions this often comes with less consumer protections)
- doesn't interface (well) with the card payment/payment terminal ecosystem (but technically can and you do find it in some edge cases)
- fast (in seconds) payment cost extra and price is bank/country dependent (through in some countries it's free or consistently "cheap" e.g. a fixed 15ct(€) independent of amount and recipient)
but this is likely too change, some countries have already put up standards for more convenient P2P (and P2B??) payment methods and they seem to be in the process of being adapted EU wide (but not necessary UK and other non EU SEPA members)
in addition there are standardized interfaces for 3rd parties companies to link up with SEPA and/or you bank account which do technically allow companies to innovate on improvements. Practically this often runs into issues, 1) from a consumer POV in many (not all) EU countries the state of card payment is just fine and convenient features like easy bill sharing many people either don't need or don't know what they miss out on. 2) many issues are on the (physical) shop side, but you need to provide things users can use and having multiple systems in parallel is often not very practical, 3) at the same time without shops allowing new systems customer don't have any reason to adapt such new systems
anyway all of this likely will improve quite a bit relatively soon
- sending money (P2P, P2B, B2B) often requires manually entering a IBAN in your banking app/website (_except in some countries_, and some systems on top of it can also reduce the friction) which is okay for many P2P use cases but not good for physical shop checkout P2B use case or ad hoc bill sharing use case in P2P (also compared to some other solutions this often comes with less consumer protections)
- doesn't interface (well) with the card payment/payment terminal ecosystem (but technically can and you do find it in some edge cases)
- fast (in seconds) payment cost extra and price is bank/country dependent (through in some countries it's free or consistently "cheap" e.g. a fixed 15ct(€) independent of amount and recipient)
but this is likely too change, some countries have already put up standards for more convenient P2P (and P2B??) payment methods and they seem to be in the process of being adapted EU wide (but not necessary UK and other non EU SEPA members)
in addition there are standardized interfaces for 3rd parties companies to link up with SEPA and/or you bank account which do technically allow companies to innovate on improvements. Practically this often runs into issues, 1) from a consumer POV in many (not all) EU countries the state of card payment is just fine and convenient features like easy bill sharing many people either don't need or don't know what they miss out on. 2) many issues are on the (physical) shop side, but you need to provide things users can use and having multiple systems in parallel is often not very practical, 3) at the same time without shops allowing new systems customer don't have any reason to adapt such new systems
anyway all of this likely will improve quite a bit relatively soon
Also digital euro is targeting payment systems (https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.ht...)
From the comments it seems it supports direct person to person transfers, but how easy is it to use it for payments? Can you use SEPA to pay for your groceries? Or buy something on the Internet?
It’s crap in comparison. It’s not flexible at all. It’s still SEPA even though it’s “instant” and not all banks support it yet (although they are supposed to).
October 2025 is the deadline for all banks to support the instant part, and I don't understand your complaint that it's instant but "still SEPA." That's good! It's a utility that just works. You can always bolt trimmings on at the institutional level. What are your expectations for what it should be?
What do you mean it's not flexible? I've always thought of the EU as being way ahead of the US in banking terms, with lots of digital banks offering instant payments and all EU banks offering SEPA instant transfers. I'm interested to hear about these other platforms outside of the EU/US and how they are innovating.
SEPA is not crap. It's actually pretty awesome, considering that you can instantly transfer money between 5000+ banks in 30+ countries, with practically zero fees.
The UX of SEPA is lacking in comparison to other modern payment systems for sure. I'm confident though, that it will improve soon. Wero [1] seems like a decent start and appears to be gaining traction lately. It's basically a layer on top of SEPA Instant payment with extra features and a decent app based UI/UX.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wero_(payment)
The UX of SEPA is lacking in comparison to other modern payment systems for sure. I'm confident though, that it will improve soon. Wero [1] seems like a decent start and appears to be gaining traction lately. It's basically a layer on top of SEPA Instant payment with extra features and a decent app based UI/UX.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wero_(payment)
> with practically zero fees
We pay 2.50 EUR for a SEPA transfer, it's ridiculously expensive.
We need local integrations for every market to cut costs.
We pay 2.50 EUR for a SEPA transfer, it's ridiculously expensive.
We need local integrations for every market to cut costs.
Where in Europe are you getting charged that much?
Usually SEPA payments are completely free for consumers. And I believe there’s a EU-mandated fee cap which is much less than 2.50 €. But if you have a business account, things are different.
Usually SEPA payments are completely free for consumers. And I believe there’s a EU-mandated fee cap which is much less than 2.50 €. But if you have a business account, things are different.
Business account, invoicing in Scandinavia.
We clearly need to look into other banks.
We clearly need to look into other banks.
That is pretty expensive, I agree. I pay zero additional fees when using my private account. For my business account I'm charged ~30 Cents flat per transaction. I know that there are banks offering better terms, but I'm too lazy to switch for just a couple of Euros in savings.
In austria QR codes for sharing payment info are getting popular. Many invoices have a QR code on them. You can then use your banking app to pay the invoice.
Banking apps can also generate a QR code for receiving payments.
They are not quite as seamless as tap-to-pay, but they work with pretty much every bank in the Austria, which is neat.
Banking apps can also generate a QR code for receiving payments.
They are not quite as seamless as tap-to-pay, but they work with pretty much every bank in the Austria, which is neat.
N26 execs instant payments reliably in Germany
Visa and MasterCard are shaking in their boots and will scratch and bite on their way down to kill anything like this in the US.
This has already started with Trump's tariffs: https://valorinternational.globo.com/foreign-affairs/news/20...
> While the system is not named directly, a document from the Office of the United States Trade Representative (USTR) says that “Brazil also appears to engage in a number of unfair practices with respect to electronic payment services, including but not limited to advantaging its government-developed electronic payment services.”
I'd be surprised if there aren't big tech/credit card companies lobbying behind this.
> While the system is not named directly, a document from the Office of the United States Trade Representative (USTR) says that “Brazil also appears to engage in a number of unfair practices with respect to electronic payment services, including but not limited to advantaging its government-developed electronic payment services.”
I'd be surprised if there aren't big tech/credit card companies lobbying behind this.
Earlier this week, Brazil VP Geraldo Alckmin (who is also a Development, Industry, Trade and Services Minister) meet to talk about tariffs with several big tech executives and also a "big tech" lobbyist. Worth to point out that.... Visa was there.
- Igor Luna, Legal Consultant of the Brazilian Digital Economy Chamber
- Nuno Lopes Alves, General Director of Visa
- Gustavo Lage Noman, Vice President of Government Affairs at Visa
- Márcia Miya, Government Affairs Manager at Apple
- Gustavo Dias, Head of Legal and Institutional Relations Latin America
- Yana Dumaresq, Director of Public Policy at Meta
- Daniel Arbix, Legal Director at Google
Igor Luna were doing heavy lobby against social network regulation that happened.
- Igor Luna, Legal Consultant of the Brazilian Digital Economy Chamber
- Nuno Lopes Alves, General Director of Visa
- Gustavo Lage Noman, Vice President of Government Affairs at Visa
- Márcia Miya, Government Affairs Manager at Apple
- Gustavo Dias, Head of Legal and Institutional Relations Latin America
- Yana Dumaresq, Director of Public Policy at Meta
- Daniel Arbix, Legal Director at Google
Igor Luna were doing heavy lobby against social network regulation that happened.
I wonder what the total value to the Brazilian economy is to keep Visa/MasterCard's cut of so many transactions in Brazil instead of being siphoned offshore.
It's not just that. It's also about - one fine day a nation waking up to Visa/MC "disconnecting" that nation. Why? Well, maybe the mothership nation's leader just felt like it. Who the hell knows. The point is - these nations don't want to find that out. Almost all of these countries have faced such sanctions, blocking, control etc in one way or the other at some point.
When I first moved to LatAm, the cashiers always asked how many "cuotas" I wanted to pay. I was initially confused and realized it meant I could take a (interest free?) loan to pay for my purchases in installments.
I never understood how this was common in high interest countries in LatAm, but unheard of in the USA.
Does anyone know? Like actually know, not speculating.
I never understood how this was common in high interest countries in LatAm, but unheard of in the USA.
Does anyone know? Like actually know, not speculating.
It's common because people want goods but don't have the money to buy it
Oh you want a $140 Instant Pot? I think you mean a 1.5x minimum wage Instant Pot
So the only way to buy an Instant Pot is to do installments
Oh you want a $140 Instant Pot? I think you mean a 1.5x minimum wage Instant Pot
So the only way to buy an Instant Pot is to do installments
It's interest-free for the customer because the interest was already bundled in the good's price.
It's risk-free for the retailers, as the full purchase amount is taken from the customer's credit card limit, but they will only receive the money in installments, unless they opt to receivables financing.
There are retailers that offer discounts if you purchase in one lump sum. Now recently some banks started giving discounts if you pay the installments in advance.
This is common in high interest countries as there is this whole financing industry that revolves around customer credit, and as the interest rates are high enough, there is lots of money to be made.
It's risk-free for the retailers, as the full purchase amount is taken from the customer's credit card limit, but they will only receive the money in installments, unless they opt to receivables financing.
There are retailers that offer discounts if you purchase in one lump sum. Now recently some banks started giving discounts if you pay the installments in advance.
This is common in high interest countries as there is this whole financing industry that revolves around customer credit, and as the interest rates are high enough, there is lots of money to be made.
It really will depend on the country
If you're using a credit card, you specify at POS how you want to split the purchase (Number of installments, or cuotas in spanish), if it's free of interest will depend on your deal with the bank (And if the seller has different plans)
It's common for even the worse cards to charge interest at least from the third month onwards, but most banks have special deals with seller of costlier products (I'm pretty sure I could make a car payment with 0 interest (to my card))
Can't comment further, but the US has always seemed particularly backwards regarding their banking: - Needing a third party to allow instant transfers - Mobile POS being weird / Needing to take a card away from a table to charge it - How common checks are - Overdraft fees
If you're using a credit card, you specify at POS how you want to split the purchase (Number of installments, or cuotas in spanish), if it's free of interest will depend on your deal with the bank (And if the seller has different plans)
It's common for even the worse cards to charge interest at least from the third month onwards, but most banks have special deals with seller of costlier products (I'm pretty sure I could make a car payment with 0 interest (to my card))
Can't comment further, but the US has always seemed particularly backwards regarding their banking: - Needing a third party to allow instant transfers - Mobile POS being weird / Needing to take a card away from a table to charge it - How common checks are - Overdraft fees
People can't save so they need to pay with credit to buy things they want, even it that means paying 2x the original price.
In a sense, Trump's rant against Pix is promoting it to the world. Moreover, some stores in Portugal and more recently France are accepting Pix as form of payment.
It's not a small population. There's estimated 40k Brazilians in the Netherlands for example, most of them illegal. They need a payment system which doesn't require a European bank account.
PS: I don't think anyone is illegal, but the system push them out.
PS: I don't think anyone is illegal, but the system push them out.
It's time for all of us that travel to have 2 pins: the regular one, and a second one that notifies the issuer that the transaction happens at gunpoint, in which case the amount that can be taken is drastically reduced.
This is called a duress pin and is implemented in alarm systems.
On a technical level are there big differences between Pix and FedNow[0]? Besides this upcoming installment feature.
[0] https://www.frbservices.org/financial-services/fednow
[0] https://www.frbservices.org/financial-services/fednow
Pix is great now - one concern is that it needs to be nimble enough to evolve as the country does. If it is still meeting the needs of Brazil & Brazilians in 10+ years time that will be an even greater triumph.
Meanwhile to the Brazilian people, congratulations & enjoy being world leaders in payments!
Meanwhile to the Brazilian people, congratulations & enjoy being world leaders in payments!
Just a reminder that Google Pay supports Pix! You can pay using Pix with QR Code, keys or just NFC with it.
There were reports that Apple doesn't want to implement on Apple Pay...
There were reports that Apple doesn't want to implement on Apple Pay...
> There were reports that Apple doesn't want to implement on Apple Pay...
No surprise.
1. Apple is irrelevant in 3rd world countries. It is a luxury brand for millionaires. Doesn't have mass appeal.
2. If Apple were to implement it they wouldn't be able to get away with the huge margins they charge.
No surprise.
1. Apple is irrelevant in 3rd world countries. It is a luxury brand for millionaires. Doesn't have mass appeal.
2. If Apple were to implement it they wouldn't be able to get away with the huge margins they charge.
> Apple is irrelevant in 3rd world countries. It is a luxury brand for millionaires. Doesn't have mass appeal.
Apple has 9% market share in Brazil. This is not irrelevant. It’s not a luxury thing for millionaires, but rather a status symbol for the middle class.
There’s this whole market of iPhone leasing plans where you get a new phone whenever Apple releases a new one, banks offering 21x installment payment plans to purchase iPhones, and a vibrant secondhand and refurbished market.
This 9% segment of the population can’t be ignored, specially considering the income inequality in the Brazilian society. They might not have a high credit card limit or due to lack of financial literacy, they want to avoid using credit cards, so they might prefer to use debit and PIX for daily transactions.
Apple has 9% market share in Brazil. This is not irrelevant. It’s not a luxury thing for millionaires, but rather a status symbol for the middle class.
There’s this whole market of iPhone leasing plans where you get a new phone whenever Apple releases a new one, banks offering 21x installment payment plans to purchase iPhones, and a vibrant secondhand and refurbished market.
This 9% segment of the population can’t be ignored, specially considering the income inequality in the Brazilian society. They might not have a high credit card limit or due to lack of financial literacy, they want to avoid using credit cards, so they might prefer to use debit and PIX for daily transactions.
How much of these 9% uses Apple Pay? My bet it's just a small part. People still use Pix and physical Credit/Debit Cards. Google Pay/Apple Pay are far behind.
Considering all the major banks credit cards are able to be added to Apple Pay's wallet, my educated guess is if a person has an iPhone and a credit card, they are using it through Apple Pay most of the time. Even meal voucher cards are now able to be added to Apple Pay's wallet.
I don't have statistics readily available, but you can search for CADE's (Brazilian fair trade regulator) inquiry 08700.002893/2025-17 on Apple's refusal to support Pix on Apple Pay and comb through the documents.
I don't have statistics readily available, but you can search for CADE's (Brazilian fair trade regulator) inquiry 08700.002893/2025-17 on Apple's refusal to support Pix on Apple Pay and comb through the documents.
You're right, except for the last sentence. Lack of financial literacy has some levels. One could refuse to use Credit Cards because they don't perceive the benefits (point programs or cashback) they could individually attain, but one can also refuse to use Pix because "I only have to pay my credit card invoice once at the end of the month and can spend without worries during the month" (which is even dumber, but is the reality we're living on).
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This is such good news. The amount of value extracted of the brazillian people from outlandish interest rates from credit cards is unbelievable and this will free all of us from it.
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Fuck trump, the Epstein buddy
Ave Brasil
Ave Brasil
Obviously credit cards give you credit, if that's what you want/need, maybe a postponement until your monthly statement is closed, or chargebacks and maybe insurance, but CCs should be an exception, not the norm they are now, with a bunch of embedded costs we all pay for, one way or another.