Pine64 Smarphone Spare Parts(pine64.com)
pine64.com
Pine64 Smarphone Spare Parts
https://pine64.com/product-category/smarphone-spare-parts/?v=0446c16e2e66
145 comments
I can't wait until it can be used as a primary phone!
I was really considering making it my primary/only phone and pre-ordering, thinking I can put up with issues since I barely need/use a phone really and it'd be fun to help where I could.
But then I realised that most of my limited phone use is instant messaging/video chat with family etc. and it wouldn't have WhatsApp, Telegram __might__ work but most of my contacts use WhatsApp and wouldn't switch for me.
So really I think I need to hear anecdotal reports of anbox working well on it, perhaps even for WhatsApp specifically before I bite the bullet. (I don't really want it as a toy/secondary phone, would just be a paperweight I think.)
It is my 'dream phone' though really I suppose - Linux & hardware repairable. OS is cool, but honestly I'd be happy just to see more Linux and designed for repair phones.
(Yes Apple phones are not the worst in that regard, but only because of sheer volume. Also, using multiple screw shapes, sizes, and lengths is pretty hostile/'authorised only' compared to Pine's single screw type.)
But then I realised that most of my limited phone use is instant messaging/video chat with family etc. and it wouldn't have WhatsApp, Telegram __might__ work but most of my contacts use WhatsApp and wouldn't switch for me.
So really I think I need to hear anecdotal reports of anbox working well on it, perhaps even for WhatsApp specifically before I bite the bullet. (I don't really want it as a toy/secondary phone, would just be a paperweight I think.)
It is my 'dream phone' though really I suppose - Linux & hardware repairable. OS is cool, but honestly I'd be happy just to see more Linux and designed for repair phones.
(Yes Apple phones are not the worst in that regard, but only because of sheer volume. Also, using multiple screw shapes, sizes, and lengths is pretty hostile/'authorised only' compared to Pine's single screw type.)
I use the PinePhone as my daily driver. Telegram Desktop actually works rather well, so does Matrix with Fractal, but I don't think WhatsApp can really work without an official blessing from FB.
It should work in anbox though right? Just a matter of whether anbox runs smoothly?
http://anbox.io/
Good to hear re Telegram, thanks. Gah, I'm tempted again. I actually got as far as checkout before, but then tax and shipping was added last minute and it suddenly seemed not such a great idea on a whim, and to warrant more thought/reading reviews on which size RAM model to get.
Maybe 2021 will be the year of (my) Linux phone.. :)
http://anbox.io/
Good to hear re Telegram, thanks. Gah, I'm tempted again. I actually got as far as checkout before, but then tax and shipping was added last minute and it suddenly seemed not such a great idea on a whim, and to warrant more thought/reading reviews on which size RAM model to get.
Maybe 2021 will be the year of (my) Linux phone.. :)
I'm in the same boat with WhatsApp -- though I got a pinephone anyway, because an open, battery powered arm64 computer with USB-C and displayport out is awesome enough to justify it personally.
A couple months ago I went through the hoops of getting anbox set up and working (which I confess involved a lot of mucking around with containers and package versions) and it was .. better than I expected?
WhatsApp and several apps besides installed and opened up fine, and first impressions were that it was surprisingly smooth, given how positively ... anemic the Pine's SoC is. Not pleasant, but definitely usable.
Unfortunately at the time, a bug in the software keyboard and wayland meant that all keyboard input was mangled, so I could never get as far as actually setting up whatsapp and actually testing it.
I remember seeing a month or so ago that Purism apparently fixed the bug in their software keyboard, so now it should work? I've been out of the country though, and haven't tested it yet.
A couple months ago I went through the hoops of getting anbox set up and working (which I confess involved a lot of mucking around with containers and package versions) and it was .. better than I expected?
WhatsApp and several apps besides installed and opened up fine, and first impressions were that it was surprisingly smooth, given how positively ... anemic the Pine's SoC is. Not pleasant, but definitely usable.
Unfortunately at the time, a bug in the software keyboard and wayland meant that all keyboard input was mangled, so I could never get as far as actually setting up whatsapp and actually testing it.
I remember seeing a month or so ago that Purism apparently fixed the bug in their software keyboard, so now it should work? I've been out of the country though, and haven't tested it yet.
There's still some small keyboard issues left to fix I think but the main thing is I don't think notifications will be possible (especially if they rely on Google Play services).
There is a WhatsApp app on KaiOS (the FirefoxOS successor) which I think must be a PWA so I wonder if that could be repurposed to run on the PinePhone.
There is a WhatsApp app on KaiOS (the FirefoxOS successor) which I think must be a PWA so I wonder if that could be repurposed to run on the PinePhone.
Ahhh yeah, I hadn't considered that. Hmmm.
The KaiOS app looks interesting. It seems like they just repurposed the regular web version of WhatsApp, based on its limitations (no voice/video calling). It's a shame they can't just use local storage and let you use that by itself in a browser (without an android/ios device), but, oh well.
The KaiOS app looks interesting. It seems like they just repurposed the regular web version of WhatsApp, based on its limitations (no voice/video calling). It's a shame they can't just use local storage and let you use that by itself in a browser (without an android/ios device), but, oh well.
An involved solution can be to set a Matrix bridge up for most services, including WhatsApp.
The downside are:
1. You have to host your Matrix server, so not everybody will be happy about it, or able to do so;
2. This relies on reverse-engineering the whatsApp web API, and is against WhatsApp TOS, you might get banned
3. You need another device with WhatsApp installed (an old android phone or a VM works fine).
Personally, this is the main reason why I refuse to use any of these proprietary apps, and I make this clear to my friends.
On the upside, if you go that route, you can go the extra mile and bridge facebook messenger, discord, telegram, and others to your Matrix account, and control everything on the go from a single app. I'm planning to work on push notifications for the Linux phone platform :)
The downside are:
1. You have to host your Matrix server, so not everybody will be happy about it, or able to do so;
2. This relies on reverse-engineering the whatsApp web API, and is against WhatsApp TOS, you might get banned
3. You need another device with WhatsApp installed (an old android phone or a VM works fine).
Personally, this is the main reason why I refuse to use any of these proprietary apps, and I make this clear to my friends.
On the upside, if you go that route, you can go the extra mile and bridge facebook messenger, discord, telegram, and others to your Matrix account, and control everything on the go from a single app. I'm planning to work on push notifications for the Linux phone platform :)
4. Text only
Advantage of anbox approach is that it is the WhatsApp app, so audio/video calls (in theory) work too.
Matrix and bridges is cool though, I would like to set that up, it just unfortunately doesn't cover every use.
Advantage of anbox approach is that it is the WhatsApp app, so audio/video calls (in theory) work too.
Matrix and bridges is cool though, I would like to set that up, it just unfortunately doesn't cover every use.
Sounds pretty promising, thanks! Can you expand slightly on the SoC being 'anaemic'? Slow in general, or just to start up?
The PinePhone is not 'fast'. It is however not 'slow' per se either. It's fine for running most apps, but things like Firefox take a while to launch.
Still, the fact I can just drop any Linux aarch64 binary on it and run it without restrictions makes it very much worth it.
Still, the fact I can just drop any Linux aarch64 binary on it and run it without restrictions makes it very much worth it.
How's the battery life?
To be honest, for a daily driver, this is my wish list:
To be honest, for a daily driver, this is my wish list:
- At least 20 hours charge
- Browser
- Email client
- MP3 over bluetooth
- Phone audio
- Camera (video and audio)
- SMS
- Some form of IM that others can use (Matrix client would be nice)
- Tethering (via 4G)
- Native (gui) apps (Firefox OS was ok, but native would have been good)
Here's my experience:
> At least 20 hours charge
I think I get about 3 days on complete standby (with no sim card)
> Browser
Has had a usable browser for at least half a year.
> Phone audio
Works
> Camera
Its supposed to work on Manjaro at least.
> IM
Someone posted Matrix and Telegram work in a sibling thread
> Native apps
Pretty much everything is native afaik, excluding PWA/electron/emulation
Can't say about the rest, since I didn't really test it much with a SIM card :/
One thing I'll say though, it has(had?) problems with wakeup, ie. if it goes to sleep an alarm or timer wont wake it up.
> At least 20 hours charge
I think I get about 3 days on complete standby (with no sim card)
> Browser
Has had a usable browser for at least half a year.
> Phone audio
Works
> Camera
Its supposed to work on Manjaro at least.
> IM
Someone posted Matrix and Telegram work in a sibling thread
> Native apps
Pretty much everything is native afaik, excluding PWA/electron/emulation
Can't say about the rest, since I didn't really test it much with a SIM card :/
One thing I'll say though, it has(had?) problems with wakeup, ie. if it goes to sleep an alarm or timer wont wake it up.
Some people say it’s already good enough: https://forums.puri.sm/t/librem-5-dogwood-vs-pinephone-pmos-....
> I think I get about 3 days on complete standby (with no sim card)
I'm more interested in "realistic usage." Like you I haven't really tested it with a SIM card. Though just from a minute or two with the keyboard I found it impractical for carrying on a conversation over SMS so I don't think I could do a real test of the battery life anyway.
The on-screen keyboard is not actually the main problem, the main problem is just that the thing is very laggy compared to my flagship. I hit the wrong button and then the entire UI locks up and it can take a minute just to get back to the screen I wanted to be on. vs. on my flagship I can jump to the browser, do a search, jump back to messenger, send a message, jump to maps, look at something, and everything happens with typical subsecond responsiveness.
I'm more interested in "realistic usage." Like you I haven't really tested it with a SIM card. Though just from a minute or two with the keyboard I found it impractical for carrying on a conversation over SMS so I don't think I could do a real test of the battery life anyway.
The on-screen keyboard is not actually the main problem, the main problem is just that the thing is very laggy compared to my flagship. I hit the wrong button and then the entire UI locks up and it can take a minute just to get back to the screen I wanted to be on. vs. on my flagship I can jump to the browser, do a search, jump back to messenger, send a message, jump to maps, look at something, and everything happens with typical subsecond responsiveness.
This is my biggest gripe with it at the moment as well, it's horribly unresponsive. I think a UI specifically for mobile will have to be made before it's really useful :/
Ok, thanks to the both of you. I think I'll have to wait it out a bit longer, but I'm excited that it's showing so much progress. Feels at least better than the OpenMoko days.
There is some sort of Whatsapp transport for XMPP[1]. Dunno how well it works in practice.
[1] https://git.theta.eu.org/eta/whatsxmpp
[1] https://git.theta.eu.org/eta/whatsxmpp
For messaging, I think there will be a matrix client that works for it. And since bridge bots will soon be e2e encrypted, it should work nicely.
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This makes me hopeful that we would have access to more high end parts not too far in the future. To ditch my flagship spec phone , I need similar specs as replacement.
Do you play games on your phone? Otherwise I really don't understand why anyone needs faster and faster flagship phone every year or two.
Sent from my 2014/15 (low-end, year or two old parts then) Wileyfox.
Sent from my 2014/15 (low-end, year or two old parts then) Wileyfox.
Modern JS frameworks and all the websites using them :)
I'm the kind of guy who notices tiny UI lag (and I think I'm not unique in that). This kind of slowness in everyday usage tends to not bother a lot of people but it really grates on my nerves. I don't think anyone needs faster flagship phones every year or two (my current one has already been close to two years) but performance due to higher specs does translate to an overall smoother experience. Also, I think thats kind of the point of the pinephone - those who are happy with 3 year old specs can continue so and those who want to upgrade to, say, a higher-res screen or a better camera can do so without ditching the entire phone.
As they say, those who seek to combat traffic jams by building more roads, would also attempt to lose weight by undoing their belts.
It's not different with phones. Your 2 year old flagship phone does not have a laggy UI because it's slow. It's because people code for today's phone. And as long as enough people keep buying new phones, the software market will not optimize apps, since it's cheaper not to. And as long as software needs ever more resources, people will continue to buy new phones.
It's recursive. But it's not pure: the side effects are resource depletion, electronic waste, labour exploitation, increasing energy demand.
We won't escape this vicious cycle by perpetuating that very behaviour. And so maybe we can all do something about it, however little. Maybe by accepting a tiny bit of UI lag here and there.
It's not different with phones. Your 2 year old flagship phone does not have a laggy UI because it's slow. It's because people code for today's phone. And as long as enough people keep buying new phones, the software market will not optimize apps, since it's cheaper not to. And as long as software needs ever more resources, people will continue to buy new phones.
It's recursive. But it's not pure: the side effects are resource depletion, electronic waste, labour exploitation, increasing energy demand.
We won't escape this vicious cycle by perpetuating that very behaviour. And so maybe we can all do something about it, however little. Maybe by accepting a tiny bit of UI lag here and there.
I don't disagree with the principal of the argument. I also think by continuing to use my phone until it basically dies/breaks, I'm already doing my part. I am also a person who likes fast performance and doesn't want to invest time in changing the world by accepting a thousand cuts of lag daily. Maybe that's a flaw I have but I'm willing to live with that.
Or, given this is a site for devs and entrepeneurs, do all of that except for accepting unoptimised stuff - do our best to create and highlight greater utility in older stuff.
The WordPerfect for Dos story fits in here: an awful lot of software seems to increase cycles (processing power used) without a proportional increase in utility.
Mind, this is a symptom really of how "we" have made a consumer society where companies can't exist without fitting into an ever tightening upgrade cycle -- that's incompatible with reducing energy use, reducing carbon footprint, reducing resource wastage and pollution.
We've made a sort of Skinner Box for society. It's not going well, but we've got enough distractions ...
The WordPerfect for Dos story fits in here: an awful lot of software seems to increase cycles (processing power used) without a proportional increase in utility.
Mind, this is a symptom really of how "we" have made a consumer society where companies can't exist without fitting into an ever tightening upgrade cycle -- that's incompatible with reducing energy use, reducing carbon footprint, reducing resource wastage and pollution.
We've made a sort of Skinner Box for society. It's not going well, but we've got enough distractions ...
My 2 year old flagship phone (Blackberry Key2) does not have a laggy UI. My Pinephone does. And yes, I'm sensitive to lag but I'm not talking about minor lag. I'm talking about I push a button and then 15 seconds later after I thought that the keypress hadn't registered, suddenly I get popped into a different screen.
You're not wrong, but what you say is also not helpful. You're suggesting a microeconomic solution to fix a macroeconomic problem. It's a form of the Tragedy of the Commons. Doing what you say will simply hurt the person who does it, while making no difference in the large scheme of things.
But I'm not proposing a solution. What I'm saying is that a vicious cycle isn't broken by shrugging and conceding defeat to whatever you feel "macroeconomics" is.
It's easy pointing fingers and blaming circumstances. But I'm asking you: what would hurt exactly? Would your life be worse without the iPhone 12? Would you me less productive, would you be less happy?
It's easy pointing fingers and blaming circumstances. But I'm asking you: what would hurt exactly? Would your life be worse without the iPhone 12? Would you me less productive, would you be less happy?
I'm also very sensitive to UI lag, but flagship phones are more a cause than a solution.
If you're on Android, enable developer options and disable animations. Not only is your phone now many orders of magnitude more useable because it's responsive to your actions instead of being in store demo mode with UIs built for videos in marketing banners, you can also use an old phone very comfortably.
I use a five year old mid tier phone quite comfortably. There is the occasional app that stutters because it bakes in its own pointless animations or NIH smooth scrolling, but this is easily solved by not using broken software.
If you're on Android, enable developer options and disable animations. Not only is your phone now many orders of magnitude more useable because it's responsive to your actions instead of being in store demo mode with UIs built for videos in marketing banners, you can also use an old phone very comfortably.
I use a five year old mid tier phone quite comfortably. There is the occasional app that stutters because it bakes in its own pointless animations or NIH smooth scrolling, but this is easily solved by not using broken software.
I tweak the animation setting almost every time I get a new phone :)
I think that jquery animations on the web broke UX designers brains.
It's bad enough having a 300 ms animation. But when two, or even three get chained together, in addition to whatever lag there is for building the new UI elements, it's unbearable. And then there are the piss-poor apps on iPhone that seem to also depend on network data at some point, and delay all info display until the update comes through.
And the other issue with animations is that you're never sure when it's safe to tap a visible UI element, because it's not clear when that button that's sliding onto the screen will actually become active and responsive to user input. So the animation introduces tons of uncertainty about intersections too.
Animations should be capped to 100ms for any interaction. No chaining if one thing slides out, then another slides over. 100ms total, slide both those panels at once if you want to animate them, devs. Or bette yet, skip the stupid animation.
It's bad enough having a 300 ms animation. But when two, or even three get chained together, in addition to whatever lag there is for building the new UI elements, it's unbearable. And then there are the piss-poor apps on iPhone that seem to also depend on network data at some point, and delay all info display until the update comes through.
And the other issue with animations is that you're never sure when it's safe to tap a visible UI element, because it's not clear when that button that's sliding onto the screen will actually become active and responsive to user input. So the animation introduces tons of uncertainty about intersections too.
Animations should be capped to 100ms for any interaction. No chaining if one thing slides out, then another slides over. 100ms total, slide both those panels at once if you want to animate them, devs. Or bette yet, skip the stupid animation.
> Or better yet, skip the stupid animation.
I agree -- mostly.
I think that animations can make some things more usable, in the form of drawing attention to a change happening on screen. I do agree whole-heartedly about the lengths of the animations though. If you're going to do an animation, make it fast enough I don't have to wait on it.
I agree -- mostly.
I think that animations can make some things more usable, in the form of drawing attention to a change happening on screen. I do agree whole-heartedly about the lengths of the animations though. If you're going to do an animation, make it fast enough I don't have to wait on it.
I want good cameras, with large sensor area and optical image stabilization. I don't need top CPU or GPU, or shiny metal cases l, etc. but unfortunately manufacturers don't usually sell medium range phones with top cameras.
One definitely doesn’t need a ultra-fast flagship phone, but the processor in the Pinephone is painfully slow to e.g. run Firefox on, much slower than cheap Android phones you can pick up for 100–200€ (like my Motorola Moto G7 that I use LineageOS on).
I'm running several-years-old non-flagship phone, but own a UBports edition PinePhone to tinker with.
Personally, I'm interested in eventual higher specs because I think it enables more things down the line. For example, I have 2 GB of RAM right now (maybe 3 GB if I now decide to replace my mainboard). But what if Pine64 decides to put go the Raspberry Pi route, and suddenly add an option with 8 GB? Maybe you could use an LTE-enabled SIM card to build a cheap remote environmental monitoring node based on the PinePhone, since it's already got a camera, GPS, and the data link built in, and could access peripherals through the Convergence functionality. Who knows? Optional higher specs only extends the range of possibilities.
Personally, I'm interested in eventual higher specs because I think it enables more things down the line. For example, I have 2 GB of RAM right now (maybe 3 GB if I now decide to replace my mainboard). But what if Pine64 decides to put go the Raspberry Pi route, and suddenly add an option with 8 GB? Maybe you could use an LTE-enabled SIM card to build a cheap remote environmental monitoring node based on the PinePhone, since it's already got a camera, GPS, and the data link built in, and could access peripherals through the Convergence functionality. Who knows? Optional higher specs only extends the range of possibilities.
Oh yeah, and that's great, I didn't mean to suggest it isn't fantastic to have each part replaceable (not just for upgrades, but repair too!) - I was just responding to 'high enough spec parts aren't available yet', I'm curious what people do other than play games that they (think they?) need higher specs, or the specs of today's 'flagships'.
Gotcha; seems I may have misinterpreted your original post.
I do think that the 2->3 GB update was meaningful; I believe that using a web browser like the Firefox ESR version on my current Mobian version can eat up some RAM, so the extra GB actually difference for more compute-intensive tasks, but there's diminishing returns past this point for most cases. I personally agree that using 'need' to describe modern flagship specs is probably a little strong.
I do think that the 2->3 GB update was meaningful; I believe that using a web browser like the Firefox ESR version on my current Mobian version can eat up some RAM, so the extra GB actually difference for more compute-intensive tasks, but there's diminishing returns past this point for most cases. I personally agree that using 'need' to describe modern flagship specs is probably a little strong.
I wonder if it would be faster for me to assemble a phone from spare parts instead of waiting for my delivery!
Last time I looked, there was a note on the mainboard that they would only sell it to you if you already owned the phone.
My contract ran out last month, and I'm biding my time for a new phone... I really want the Pine64 to be my daily driver. Hopefully soon! God Speed Pine64!
Does anyone have first-hand experience with the pinephone as daily driver? I'm thinking about getting it, but I'm worried I wont be able to do my usual stuff, including using things like Signal or WhatsApp.
Would be very interesting to hear some practital experiences!
Would be very interesting to hear some practital experiences!
I've had one since July and unless your needs and expectations are very low, it still has a long way to go to achieve daily driver status for me. If you only need it to replace a very low end smartphone (i.e. just making phone calls and text messages with very low expectations for apps/web as you might use a sub-$100 smartphone for) then it might work for that definition of daily driver. What it is right now is an excellent mobile Linux device that is perfect for me in many situations that I'd previously consider using a SBC or don't want to lug a laptop around for a few minute task. It will get there eventually, but the software still needs a lot of work and the hardware probably needs to advance a generation or two.
For a daily driver, I literally just went out and picked up a new Android device this weekend because I can't see the Pinephone being able to take on that role for me from a software standpoint for quite some time or with this generation of hardware.
For a daily driver, I literally just went out and picked up a new Android device this weekend because I can't see the Pinephone being able to take on that role for me from a software standpoint for quite some time or with this generation of hardware.
I have it and I like it (Convergence edition on Mobian). My issue is MMS has been non-functional, and because of that, I can't use it as a daily driver.
Mobian has Anbox functional (though it is still experimental), so you can install apps on that. WhatsApp and Signal with without play services so that shouldn't be an issue.
Mobian has Anbox functional (though it is still experimental), so you can install apps on that. WhatsApp and Signal with without play services so that shouldn't be an issue.
Slightly off topic, but I'm curious why the lack of MMS is a show-stopper for you. Personally I've always found it to be a waste of time and money; there's better and cheaper ways of transferring both text and images (especially images due to the compression).
Obviously you do have a use-case; please don't think I'm trying to say it's invalid, I just honestly don't understand what it would be and would really like to be enlightened.
Obviously you do have a use-case; please don't think I'm trying to say it's invalid, I just honestly don't understand what it would be and would really like to be enlightened.
I'm from the U.S. and everyone I know uses SMS/MMS to communicate, including a few MMS group messages. Practically no one I know uses whatsapp/telegram/etc.
I am from the US and my family uses iMessage. I do not have iOS so they just exclude me from the family group chat. Feels good man.
Three followup questions if you don't mind:
Does MMS make it easy to have a group conversation, or does everyone have to remember to do the equiv or "reply-all" (add everyone's number in) when sending a message to the group?
Do you get free SMS/MMS included in your plan? (My American Aunt has always insisted SMS was obscenely expensive and refused to use it to communicate.)
Do you get Data as standard with the plan? (Eg is it that people can't easily use WhatsApp because they don't have data when out and about or is it that people just won't agree which IP product to use in the first place?)
Really appreciated; thank you :)
Does MMS make it easy to have a group conversation, or does everyone have to remember to do the equiv or "reply-all" (add everyone's number in) when sending a message to the group?
Do you get free SMS/MMS included in your plan? (My American Aunt has always insisted SMS was obscenely expensive and refused to use it to communicate.)
Do you get Data as standard with the plan? (Eg is it that people can't easily use WhatsApp because they don't have data when out and about or is it that people just won't agree which IP product to use in the first place?)
Really appreciated; thank you :)
- Most MMS/SMS apps treat a MMS group as a threaded conversation, so you only have to set it up once (or it’ll automatically populate all the numbers when someone sends you a text from a mms group)
- MMS has been free and unlimited for the last decade or so on most major carriers (maybe more like ~7 years but we got it waaay before unlimited data made a comeback).
- Data comes standard most of the time, most people have at least a gig or two a month, going all the way up to unlimited. It’s not a problem of data use (since you’d be hard pressed to burn through two gigs of text and meh resolution images), but it’s that MMS is a lowest common denominator. Everyone has it, so you know you can reach them (except for the 10% of the time a message doesn’t go through and you don’t know about it :P). I’m in the US, and I don’t know anyone who uses something other than MMS or iMessage (which is invisible and acts exactly the same) for most of their communication. Some of us have Discord but we only use it on desktop. I think my parents may use Facebook Messenger for something.
- MMS has been free and unlimited for the last decade or so on most major carriers (maybe more like ~7 years but we got it waaay before unlimited data made a comeback).
- Data comes standard most of the time, most people have at least a gig or two a month, going all the way up to unlimited. It’s not a problem of data use (since you’d be hard pressed to burn through two gigs of text and meh resolution images), but it’s that MMS is a lowest common denominator. Everyone has it, so you know you can reach them (except for the 10% of the time a message doesn’t go through and you don’t know about it :P). I’m in the US, and I don’t know anyone who uses something other than MMS or iMessage (which is invisible and acts exactly the same) for most of their communication. Some of us have Discord but we only use it on desktop. I think my parents may use Facebook Messenger for something.
Really appreciate the reply - thank you. It's always intriguing to see how the other half lives, as it were.
MMS never seemed to catch on in the UK and never seems to be included in the free allowances which probably doesn't help (eg I have unlimited calls, sms, >100gb data but MMS still costs me 50p each). I think the only time I've seen it used in years is very occasionally when I ask an iPhone user to send me a photo and they don't realise I'm on Android and won't automatically have it funnelled via Apple, so instead I get badly compressed unreadable photos of printed letters.
MMS never seemed to catch on in the UK and never seems to be included in the free allowances which probably doesn't help (eg I have unlimited calls, sms, >100gb data but MMS still costs me 50p each). I think the only time I've seen it used in years is very occasionally when I ask an iPhone user to send me a photo and they don't realise I'm on Android and won't automatically have it funnelled via Apple, so instead I get badly compressed unreadable photos of printed letters.
I think part of the reason it caught on here (US) is that it's been included with the plans for so long and as such is considered baseline functionality. You don't know if someone you're talking to will be on WhatsApp, Signal, etc but in the US you can pretty much assume the person you're talking to can receive MMS.
...until you can't, as this thread shows. This is also part of what's keeping me from using my PinePhone as a daily driver.
...until you can't, as this thread shows. This is also part of what's keeping me from using my PinePhone as a daily driver.
I think most people my age (22) in the US use Facebook Messenger. It’s certainly how I do most of my communication.
Facebook Messenger is like iMessage except you can generally assume everyone is on it. The main caveat is that you get the best experience if everyone is friends on Facebook, so it works great for friend/family convos but poorly for stuff like online dating (mostly SMS, Snapchat, and iMessage) and coordinating loosely attached groups of people (GroupMe used to be popular for this, but I haven’t seen it in awhile, iMessage also gets used for this but strongly excludes half of all people).
Facebook Messenger is like iMessage except you can generally assume everyone is on it. The main caveat is that you get the best experience if everyone is friends on Facebook, so it works great for friend/family convos but poorly for stuff like online dating (mostly SMS, Snapchat, and iMessage) and coordinating loosely attached groups of people (GroupMe used to be popular for this, but I haven’t seen it in awhile, iMessage also gets used for this but strongly excludes half of all people).
> Does MMS make it easy to have a group conversation, or does everyone have to remember to do the equiv or "reply-all" (add everyone's number in) when sending a message to the group?
It depends on the client, but yes, MMS makes it pretty easy to go.
> Do you get free SMS/MMS included in your plan? (My American Aunt has always insisted SMS was obscenely expensive and refused to use it to communicate.)
Most common plans that I know of have unlimited SMS/MMS/Phone calls (unless you get a really cheap one).
> Do you get Data as standard with the plan? (Eg is it that people can't easily use WhatsApp because they don't have data when out and about or is it that people just won't agree which IP product to use in the first place?)
Data is generally standard with a plan. SOme only give you a limited allotment, and some give you some version of "unlimited" (i.e. if you use too much they will start to throttle you).
It depends on the client, but yes, MMS makes it pretty easy to go.
> Do you get free SMS/MMS included in your plan? (My American Aunt has always insisted SMS was obscenely expensive and refused to use it to communicate.)
Most common plans that I know of have unlimited SMS/MMS/Phone calls (unless you get a really cheap one).
> Do you get Data as standard with the plan? (Eg is it that people can't easily use WhatsApp because they don't have data when out and about or is it that people just won't agree which IP product to use in the first place?)
Data is generally standard with a plan. SOme only give you a limited allotment, and some give you some version of "unlimited" (i.e. if you use too much they will start to throttle you).
>Do you get free SMS/MMS included in your plan? (My American Aunt has always insisted SMS was obscenely expensive and refused to use it to communicate.)
I have a phone plan with a Sprint reseller that costs $6/month and still have unlimited texts. It's really rare for a plan to not include unlimited SMS, unless maybe it's prepaid.
MMS uses data though, and that can get expensive.
I have a phone plan with a Sprint reseller that costs $6/month and still have unlimited texts. It's really rare for a plan to not include unlimited SMS, unless maybe it's prepaid.
MMS uses data though, and that can get expensive.
When I got my first phone, SMS was 0.25USD per message. A few years later, a friend's daughter ran up a $800 bill in a single month.
These days it's less than a penny per message for SMS, or just unlimited depending on the plan.
These days it's less than a penny per message for SMS, or just unlimited depending on the plan.
> Do you get free SMS/MMS included in your plan? (My American Aunt has always insisted SMS was obscenely expensive and refused to use it to communicate.)
It was for a long time, and still is with some services. I used a tracphone flip-phone for a while, and a single SMS is like half a minute of phone time IIRC.
It was for a long time, and still is with some services. I used a tracphone flip-phone for a while, and a single SMS is like half a minute of phone time IIRC.
No MMS means you can't do group texts at all unless everyone you're messaging has decided to use a different app. Certainly a show-stopper for myself.
Because I'm a grump, I stuck with google voice for years specifically because it didn't support MMS. It cut down on a lot of spam from my family. I did manage to push people to email for group conversations. SMS/MMS are interrupts where email has a some what built in understanding that replies will not be immediate.
Like the other reply said, it's the only way I can do group texts with most of my friends/family.
It is a classic network effect scenario; if your friends and family are using MMS, then that is what you need to use, regardless of quality.
How do WhatsApp and Signal run at all? It is not a Android OS. Through a android vm? I thought that does not really work yet, at least not on the pinephone.
I've been waiting on Librem 5 for years, and had hope for Pinephone too. Broken MMS is a big deal, because it is widespread in the U.S., and I can't communicate with family without it. It looks like MMS is still a long way out, and is not really being developed. I finally gave up and ordered my first iPhone last week.
MMS is being developed: https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=11994
Yeah it is honestly frsutrating for me too. I did a bit of work to figure out how feasible it is to get MMS to work (all of the pieces are there, but the actual framework to get it to work with Chatty is missing).
I really wish Pine64 would step in to help with these sort of base issues, or have a bug bounty for it.
I really wish Pine64 would step in to help with these sort of base issues, or have a bug bounty for it.
I never knew MMS was a big deal in the US. I don't know why it just feels so, quaint.
[deleted]
Here's a first-person report from someone who just got his. Heavily-commented post.
https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/jl6q6w/pinephone_arr...
https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/jl6q6w/pinephone_arr...
> Does anyone have first-hand experience with the pinephone as daily driver? I'm thinking about getting it, but I'm worried I wont be able to do my usual stuff, including using things like Signal or WhatsApp.
I don't have the first hand experience, but I was doing research on this very topic earlier today. https://www.github.com/nanu-c/axolotl looked promising. (ubuntu touch only)
As others have mentioned, anbox is another alternative.
I ended up going with the xcover pro instead, but I'm still highly considering getting a pinephone to do dev work on. There's exciting stuff to reinvent over here!
I don't have the first hand experience, but I was doing research on this very topic earlier today. https://www.github.com/nanu-c/axolotl looked promising. (ubuntu touch only)
As others have mentioned, anbox is another alternative.
I ended up going with the xcover pro instead, but I'm still highly considering getting a pinephone to do dev work on. There's exciting stuff to reinvent over here!
I guess you could setup a matrix bridge[1] and search for a sane client[2].
[1] https://matrix.org/docs/projects/bridge/mautrix-whatsapp [2] https://fluffychat.im
[1] https://matrix.org/docs/projects/bridge/mautrix-whatsapp [2] https://fluffychat.im
Also schematics and component placement map is available, so you can do some fixes/mods at home by yourself if you're so inclined. Several such mods were already done by people.
Disassembly is fairly easy, and it can be faster than using a third party service if you already have a few necessary tools. (screwdriver, hands, maybe soldering iron, tweezers, that's about it?)
Disassembly is fairly easy, and it can be faster than using a third party service if you already have a few necessary tools. (screwdriver, hands, maybe soldering iron, tweezers, that's about it?)
Thank you Pine64 for this!
Reparable electronic devices are one of the few levers that can have a huge impact to create a sustainable future.
Obviously it will require to rethink our economies, like reducing the taxes on labor to enable small repair shops to bloom everywhere.
Linux + a reparable device is the only way to stop e-waste!
Reparable electronic devices are one of the few levers that can have a huge impact to create a sustainable future.
Obviously it will require to rethink our economies, like reducing the taxes on labor to enable small repair shops to bloom everywhere.
Linux + a reparable device is the only way to stop e-waste!
...reducing the taxes on labor...
It does seem that taxing wealth directly rather than distortion-prone measures like income or capital gains could be the best response to the increasingly "gilded" age we're enduring.
It does seem that taxing wealth directly rather than distortion-prone measures like income or capital gains could be the best response to the increasingly "gilded" age we're enduring.
Is this an alternative to income tax in all brackets? If so, doesn’t this discourage things like home ownership and saving for retirement?
presumably it would be a marginal wealth tax that only took effect at some certain socially agreed upon threshold, past which you are determined to have “made it” (and this works with wealth in a way it does not for income, since your debts will be outweighed significantly by your assets while this could potentially not be true for someone with a high salary).
Making devices more repairable also has interesting ways of connecting into the informal economy. If only inexpensive hand tools are required, an individual can set up shop to serve their neighborhood with basically no initial capital.
Repair shops can only bloom if the devices requiring repair can actually be repaired. If that does not happen, then repair will still be prohibitively difficult and expensive. Enforcing right to repair will probably end up with such a bloom, and I would happily welcome that.
How does Linux stop e-waste?
Not just Linux, being free and open in general help immensely to reduce e-waste.
Just think of how many old cellphones that don't receive updates anymore could become media players, portable terminals, IoT consoles, instrumentation interfaces, retrogaming consoles, in-vehicle dash screens, etc. if only the manufacturers released the information necessary to install much faster and open operating systems and write device divers for them. Each one of these old phones recycled that way would be one less phone thrown away.
The Pine 64 isn't anything special hardware wise, actually it's way inferior to most popular phones (but runs much more optimized software, and no preinstalled junkware), however, being able to customize it to the point one day I could give it new life by buying say a faster mainboard instead of a complete cellphone then ditching the old one in a landfill, makes a killer argument in favor of Open Source software and hardware.
Just think of how many old cellphones that don't receive updates anymore could become media players, portable terminals, IoT consoles, instrumentation interfaces, retrogaming consoles, in-vehicle dash screens, etc. if only the manufacturers released the information necessary to install much faster and open operating systems and write device divers for them. Each one of these old phones recycled that way would be one less phone thrown away.
The Pine 64 isn't anything special hardware wise, actually it's way inferior to most popular phones (but runs much more optimized software, and no preinstalled junkware), however, being able to customize it to the point one day I could give it new life by buying say a faster mainboard instead of a complete cellphone then ditching the old one in a landfill, makes a killer argument in favor of Open Source software and hardware.
I’m fully in support of open hardware, and I’d support legislation to make unlocking mandatory.
However, I’m much less optimistic about the use cases you list:
“media players, portable terminals, IoT consoles, instrumentation interfaces, retrogaming consoles, in-vehicle dash screens”
As far as I can see, there is essentially zero demand for any of these beyond hobbyists, since they can all be done much better by one’s current phone.
For me, the big reason for open hardware is that Android and iOS are nowhere near meeting the potential for what personal computing could be and we need the freedom to develop alternatives.
However, I’m much less optimistic about the use cases you list:
“media players, portable terminals, IoT consoles, instrumentation interfaces, retrogaming consoles, in-vehicle dash screens”
As far as I can see, there is essentially zero demand for any of these beyond hobbyists, since they can all be done much better by one’s current phone.
For me, the big reason for open hardware is that Android and iOS are nowhere near meeting the potential for what personal computing could be and we need the freedom to develop alternatives.
> actually it's way inferior to most popular phones (but runs much more optimized software
This isn’t really true. The only general-purpose interface for the PinePhone with any future to it (since UBPorts is based on decaying 2014-era software that even Ubuntu has abandoned) is Phosh, which has not yet been optimized. So much of Phosh’s tech depends on upstream GNOME packages whose devs aren’t terribly interested in optimizing for slower devices.
Also, a modern smartphone relies on a ton of battery optimizations to be reliable for everyday use, and that work has barely started on the PinePhone.
This isn’t really true. The only general-purpose interface for the PinePhone with any future to it (since UBPorts is based on decaying 2014-era software that even Ubuntu has abandoned) is Phosh, which has not yet been optimized. So much of Phosh’s tech depends on upstream GNOME packages whose devs aren’t terribly interested in optimizing for slower devices.
Also, a modern smartphone relies on a ton of battery optimizations to be reliable for everyday use, and that work has barely started on the PinePhone.
I have an old Macbook Pro 2011. It stopped receiving updates from Apple. I actually did try installing the patched Catalina...but it is practically unusable due to system requirements.
Installed Linux Mint 18 XFCE a while ago and recently upgraded to 20. Now it runs really well: I can watch YouTube, run VS Code, compile stuff, do some basic statistical analyses, etc.
If it weren't for Linux, this machine would end up as waste and I would have to buy something new.
Installed Linux Mint 18 XFCE a while ago and recently upgraded to 20. Now it runs really well: I can watch YouTube, run VS Code, compile stuff, do some basic statistical analyses, etc.
If it weren't for Linux, this machine would end up as waste and I would have to buy something new.
I have a 2011 MBP too (mid year refresh). How was the install? I have already installed Linux on it but it required some tricky GRUB editing to get graphics working at all, and now I’m afraid to update it due to the trouble that was. Did you have to do any of that? Im curious if support has improved. Thanks!
It was no trouble at all. Everything worked. With Mint 20 I did have to revert the touchpad driver to synaptics (just do sudo apt-get install xserver-xorg-input-synaptics), because the new driver does not work very well.
The first time I did a clean install and the second I did a dual boot with Catalina (just for fun, Catalina runs like molasses). So I definitely encourage you to try with Mint.
The first time I did a clean install and the second I did a dual boot with Catalina (just for fun, Catalina runs like molasses). So I definitely encourage you to try with Mint.
Good tip, thank you!!
By being the most popular FLOSS OS kernel available, you can be confident that it will be supported for a long time on a multitude of devices independently of manufacturer, provider or vendor. Mainly freedom from planned or non-intentional obsolescence.
I can still run 17 year old ibm t41 with the current debian.
But maybe it would run (walk?) windows 10 too, I haven't tried. I doubt so, though. :)
But maybe it would run (walk?) windows 10 too, I haven't tried. I doubt so, though. :)
Lifelong updates (unlike Android or iOS)
+ ability to run the latest distributions on 10+ years old devices.
+ ability to run the latest distributions on 10+ years old devices.
Ironically, as the operating system of choice for most phones and smart appliances, all of which go obsolete faster than purpose-built firmware devices, Linux appears in e-waste more than any other freely distributed code.
Which is to say this problem has nothing to do with licenses or repairability.
Which is to say this problem has nothing to do with licenses or repairability.
iPhone 12 models could only be serviced by Apple. A youtuber bought 2 iPhones and swapped their main boards to have a plethora of issues with the screen, battery and cameras: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY7DtKMBxBw
I’m never going to buy another Apple product. The first blow was being unable to install linux to “my” devices.
I’m never going to buy another Apple product. The first blow was being unable to install linux to “my” devices.
Two points:
Firstly, I think it's now pretty clear that Apple (and others) provide products that have numerous restrictions after their purchase. You don't own the device in a completely divorced context, but instead you have an ongoing, unavoidable relationship with the vendor, and that includes a forced lifetime after which the device becomes unusable (for reasons other than actual hardware failure). This is not unique to Apple, although arguably they've moved to this model faster and further than others.
Secondly, there are reasons for this, and they're not solely about making more money out of you. For many (I think actually most) people, it's an acceptable trade-off. They get a good product experience, at least in part because of this ongoing relationship. For some people, that trade-off doesn't work. These people should not buy an iPhone, nor a Macbook, Apple Watch, or indeed many modern electronic products from many manufacturers.
I think it's worth explaining this trade-off: in concept, and in specific detail for popular products, so that non-technical people can make informed choices.
But both approaches are valid.
Firstly, I think it's now pretty clear that Apple (and others) provide products that have numerous restrictions after their purchase. You don't own the device in a completely divorced context, but instead you have an ongoing, unavoidable relationship with the vendor, and that includes a forced lifetime after which the device becomes unusable (for reasons other than actual hardware failure). This is not unique to Apple, although arguably they've moved to this model faster and further than others.
Secondly, there are reasons for this, and they're not solely about making more money out of you. For many (I think actually most) people, it's an acceptable trade-off. They get a good product experience, at least in part because of this ongoing relationship. For some people, that trade-off doesn't work. These people should not buy an iPhone, nor a Macbook, Apple Watch, or indeed many modern electronic products from many manufacturers.
I think it's worth explaining this trade-off: in concept, and in specific detail for popular products, so that non-technical people can make informed choices.
But both approaches are valid.
I have a very unpopular view about modern cellphones: I think they need to be completely closed and handled by a company such as Apple/Google. They know what it takes to keep it secure. I've got my entire life on a device with sensors, camera, mic and it knows my health. It is fun to DIY a phone and be able to fix it, but Apple has put security down to the processor level (secure enclave) and they have a team of security engineers who's budget would dwarf the entire Pine64 team. Pine64 (or such device) sounds amazing to hack on, but I would not put any of my personal information on it. People just don't realize how you can make the same argument about a computer, but a phone is a lot more than that. Does your desktop know where you're located and how fast you're going? Does your laptop know the gait of how you walk? I am a hacker, a linux aficionado and I love open-hardware projects. I love the community and the people. Just that I don't want my phone to be such a thing.
If you fully trust your phone manufacturer, now and indefinitely, AND want to install "random" software from an appstore, then yeah, I can see how you need bigger security departments to keep it safe.
If any of these don't hold true, then I'd rather not use the latest shiny-app, fall back to a set of reasonable apps (maps, messaging, camera... I know that even these can be difficult on pine at the moment...) and only run software I can trust to do what I want and nothing else. That last bit "and nothing else" is really key.
Personally, I have come to hate interacting with android and ios devices lately because it always feels like they are trying to make me do something and as if they are trying to extract information from me, not the other way around. Very similar for the web by the way, which I also use less and less.
Essentially, modern smartphones feel like they're constantly working against me. They are powerful tools for sure, or at least they should be. But tools don't work against you. You can misuse them and hurt yourself, but that's not what's happening with smartphones.
These devices are actively trying to harm me (my mental health and my concentration at the very least) because the business models that produced them are based on that. Yes, even for apple. Their OS is much, much less like that than android, but iOS is nothing without the apps, and those largely follow the same pattern.
If any of these don't hold true, then I'd rather not use the latest shiny-app, fall back to a set of reasonable apps (maps, messaging, camera... I know that even these can be difficult on pine at the moment...) and only run software I can trust to do what I want and nothing else. That last bit "and nothing else" is really key.
Personally, I have come to hate interacting with android and ios devices lately because it always feels like they are trying to make me do something and as if they are trying to extract information from me, not the other way around. Very similar for the web by the way, which I also use less and less.
Essentially, modern smartphones feel like they're constantly working against me. They are powerful tools for sure, or at least they should be. But tools don't work against you. You can misuse them and hurt yourself, but that's not what's happening with smartphones.
These devices are actively trying to harm me (my mental health and my concentration at the very least) because the business models that produced them are based on that. Yes, even for apple. Their OS is much, much less like that than android, but iOS is nothing without the apps, and those largely follow the same pattern.
Wow. That really is an unpopular opinion (well, on HN at least). Thanks for being willing to share.
> They know what it takes to keep it secure.
I have yet to see anything properly supporting this. There's still malware for phones, and I don't trust either of the app stores.
In addition, Google especially -- but also Apple -- either exfiltrate way more info off of phones then I am comfortable with, or do a poor job of preventing others from doing so [0].
Personally, I would trust PMOS or a hand rolled installation of Alpine more than I trust either Google or Apple on both security and privacy.
[0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2020/06/23/apple-ios...
> They know what it takes to keep it secure.
I have yet to see anything properly supporting this. There's still malware for phones, and I don't trust either of the app stores.
In addition, Google especially -- but also Apple -- either exfiltrate way more info off of phones then I am comfortable with, or do a poor job of preventing others from doing so [0].
Personally, I would trust PMOS or a hand rolled installation of Alpine more than I trust either Google or Apple on both security and privacy.
[0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2020/06/23/apple-ios...
Sure, thanks for responding.
> There's still malware for phones, and I don't trust either of the app stores
I feel like it is to do with scale more than anything. There are millions if not billions of people using iPhones. There are millions of apps in the App store. If for example, Ubuntu made a phone that was handed out to billion+ people, I expect worse if not complete catastrophe.
I know it is weird to say a closed door's company is more trustworthy than an open one, I support out-in-open development of things like OpenSSH and cryptolibs; I just don't see it in a relative sense. All other options IMO are worse. Pine64 and Ubuntu would sell out instantly if I had a few million dollars to throw at them. Amazon essentially has Canonical out on a leash - Amazon integration in Ubuntu is absolutely cancerous. I imagine the entire Ad-tech industry of the size of a Aircraft carrier and Pine64/Ubuntu the size of a toy boat, they would buy people out left and right to get access to large number of users if Pine64 gets traction.
Instead of harping on the negatives, if Pine64 guys can get huge amounts of funding (and employ smart people), have bounties for security bugs, and can win my trust with custom silicon and hardware encryption, prove themselves to be against Ad-tech industry, put customer privacy first, etc; I am onboard!
> There's still malware for phones, and I don't trust either of the app stores
I feel like it is to do with scale more than anything. There are millions if not billions of people using iPhones. There are millions of apps in the App store. If for example, Ubuntu made a phone that was handed out to billion+ people, I expect worse if not complete catastrophe.
I know it is weird to say a closed door's company is more trustworthy than an open one, I support out-in-open development of things like OpenSSH and cryptolibs; I just don't see it in a relative sense. All other options IMO are worse. Pine64 and Ubuntu would sell out instantly if I had a few million dollars to throw at them. Amazon essentially has Canonical out on a leash - Amazon integration in Ubuntu is absolutely cancerous. I imagine the entire Ad-tech industry of the size of a Aircraft carrier and Pine64/Ubuntu the size of a toy boat, they would buy people out left and right to get access to large number of users if Pine64 gets traction.
Instead of harping on the negatives, if Pine64 guys can get huge amounts of funding (and employ smart people), have bounties for security bugs, and can win my trust with custom silicon and hardware encryption, prove themselves to be against Ad-tech industry, put customer privacy first, etc; I am onboard!
A reasonable stance.
> I feel like it is to do with scale more than anything. There are millions if not billions of people using iPhones. There are millions of apps in the App store. If for example, Ubuntu made a phone that was handed out to billion+ people, I expect worse if not complete catastrophe.
Indeed. I do think that Linux based phones are definitely not there yet for the average user. I would feel confident setting up and using something on the PinePhone for myself, but would not trust millions/billions of people to do so, with the current software options.
> I know it is weird to say a closed door's company is more trustworthy than an open one, I support out-in-open development of things like OpenSSH and cryptolibs; I just don't see it in a relative sense. All other options IMO are worse. Pine64 and Ubuntu would sell out instantly if I had a few million dollars to throw at them.
Ubuntu for sure I agree with. I do still use an Ubuntu derivative, but only because System76 has shown themselves to be willing to make changes from base Ubuntu where necessary.
I've participated a small amount in the Pine64 community, and honestly get the sense that they are in the business to push for better/more open hardware.
> Instead of harping on the negatives, if Pine64 guys can get huge amounts of funding (and employ smart people), have bounties for security bugs, and can win my trust with custom silicon and hardware encryption, prove themselves to be against Ad-tech industry, put customer privacy first, etc; I am onboard!
Here's hoping. I think it is a possibility, and quite likely the best possible outcome for consumer electronics.
> I feel like it is to do with scale more than anything. There are millions if not billions of people using iPhones. There are millions of apps in the App store. If for example, Ubuntu made a phone that was handed out to billion+ people, I expect worse if not complete catastrophe.
Indeed. I do think that Linux based phones are definitely not there yet for the average user. I would feel confident setting up and using something on the PinePhone for myself, but would not trust millions/billions of people to do so, with the current software options.
> I know it is weird to say a closed door's company is more trustworthy than an open one, I support out-in-open development of things like OpenSSH and cryptolibs; I just don't see it in a relative sense. All other options IMO are worse. Pine64 and Ubuntu would sell out instantly if I had a few million dollars to throw at them.
Ubuntu for sure I agree with. I do still use an Ubuntu derivative, but only because System76 has shown themselves to be willing to make changes from base Ubuntu where necessary.
I've participated a small amount in the Pine64 community, and honestly get the sense that they are in the business to push for better/more open hardware.
> Instead of harping on the negatives, if Pine64 guys can get huge amounts of funding (and employ smart people), have bounties for security bugs, and can win my trust with custom silicon and hardware encryption, prove themselves to be against Ad-tech industry, put customer privacy first, etc; I am onboard!
Here's hoping. I think it is a possibility, and quite likely the best possible outcome for consumer electronics.
Something as (conceptually) simple as verified boot is lacking on PMOS. I think the PinePhone has obvious uses, which is why I have one, but for security I think hardened versions of something like Android which has been studied are a better bet, and these can be completely de-Googled for privacy reasons as well.
> these can be completely de-Googled
Is there actually an easy way to do this? There are so many places in the Android sources where uses of google servers, services, etc. are baked-in. Even one of the "de-Googled" Chromium forks has to do some hacky stuff to ensure requests to google servers generated by internal request don't pass through. I mean, it's not technically impossible, but I suspect you mean something much narrower than just "never connects to a google server unless you explicitly request it to".
Is there actually an easy way to do this? There are so many places in the Android sources where uses of google servers, services, etc. are baked-in. Even one of the "de-Googled" Chromium forks has to do some hacky stuff to ensure requests to google servers generated by internal request don't pass through. I mean, it's not technically impossible, but I suspect you mean something much narrower than just "never connects to a google server unless you explicitly request it to".
You may want to check out /e/ [0], LineageOS [1], and GrapheneOS [2]. All of these have different focuses, but I believe they all work pretty hard to avoid Google.
[0] https://e.foundation [1] https://lineageos.org/ [2] https://grapheneos.org/
[0] https://e.foundation [1] https://lineageos.org/ [2] https://grapheneos.org/
I've spent some time with the GrapheneOS sources and found quite a few places where the connections to google servers are baked in, like Camera and Gallery reaching out to google maps, the use of Google SUPL servers which has no real alternative at the moment, or hardcoded Google DNS or NTP server IPs.
Maybe the e folks have done all this thorough de-Googling, but the Google developers clearly write Android without thinking twice about tying some piece of code to their servers and systems. It's deeply ingrained in both existing code and Google devs' mentality, and quite depressing if one is serious about de-Googling in the sense of never connecting to a Google server unless by explicit action of the user.
This is why phrases like "completely de-Googled" are frustrating and likely misleading - superficial de-Googling is possible, but I haven't yet seen evidence of deep de-Googling on any Android derivative.
I'm heartened to read what's now at: https://grapheneos.org/#never-google-services , but there's a major sentence that's aspirational rather than reflecting reality: "Text-to-speech, voice-to-text, non-GPS-based location services, geocoding, accessibility services, etc. are examples of other open Android APIs where we need to develop/bundle an implementation based on existing open source projects."
Also given the pace of Android development, maintaining patches that strip out Google references will be a non-trivial endeavor. Let alone finding every new insertion of access to a Google system.
After diving into this issue, I came away more convinced that we need projects like the PinePhone and mobile-capable versions of Linux applications/environments to succeed if we want more control over what our devices are doing and to whom they provide data. Unfortunately, I suspect it is still quite some time away before we can reliably do relatively simple stuff on an open source-based phone as a daily driver that is table stakes on Android/iphone today.
Maybe the e folks have done all this thorough de-Googling, but the Google developers clearly write Android without thinking twice about tying some piece of code to their servers and systems. It's deeply ingrained in both existing code and Google devs' mentality, and quite depressing if one is serious about de-Googling in the sense of never connecting to a Google server unless by explicit action of the user.
This is why phrases like "completely de-Googled" are frustrating and likely misleading - superficial de-Googling is possible, but I haven't yet seen evidence of deep de-Googling on any Android derivative.
I'm heartened to read what's now at: https://grapheneos.org/#never-google-services , but there's a major sentence that's aspirational rather than reflecting reality: "Text-to-speech, voice-to-text, non-GPS-based location services, geocoding, accessibility services, etc. are examples of other open Android APIs where we need to develop/bundle an implementation based on existing open source projects."
Also given the pace of Android development, maintaining patches that strip out Google references will be a non-trivial endeavor. Let alone finding every new insertion of access to a Google system.
After diving into this issue, I came away more convinced that we need projects like the PinePhone and mobile-capable versions of Linux applications/environments to succeed if we want more control over what our devices are doing and to whom they provide data. Unfortunately, I suspect it is still quite some time away before we can reliably do relatively simple stuff on an open source-based phone as a daily driver that is table stakes on Android/iphone today.
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Also a reasonable, and possibly better path for many use cases.
I like GrapheneOS a lot as a concept, no Pixel hardware to test with though.
I like GrapheneOS a lot as a concept, no Pixel hardware to test with though.
It is about trust. I do trust that Apple and Google has competent employees. I just do not trust their companies.
Concretely, I do trust google to use any data they can get of me. And probably keep this data mostly to themself, but who knows. And apple has maybe a bigger motive to keep their company image as privacy friendly, but I am not really buying into it either and in any case, as a non-US resident I do not trust hardware under the direct thumb of NSA and co.
So I want open Hardware and Pine seems to be the best, there is right now.
Concretely, I do trust google to use any data they can get of me. And probably keep this data mostly to themself, but who knows. And apple has maybe a bigger motive to keep their company image as privacy friendly, but I am not really buying into it either and in any case, as a non-US resident I do not trust hardware under the direct thumb of NSA and co.
So I want open Hardware and Pine seems to be the best, there is right now.
The problem is this is generally a tradeoff between security and privacy, at least for now. You should trust the NSA and affiliates, but you also shouldn't assume hardware is secure just because it didn't include an exploit.
Look at something like GrapheneOS for a reasonable (in my opinion) take on de-Googling phones for which Google, somewhat ironically, has added important hardware security features: https://grapheneos.org
Look at something like GrapheneOS for a reasonable (in my opinion) take on de-Googling phones for which Google, somewhat ironically, has added important hardware security features: https://grapheneos.org
> So I want open Hardware and Pine seems to be the best, there is right now.
Purism is better: they pursue FSF certification for their phone and develop software empowering the user.
Purism is better: they pursue FSF certification for their phone and develop software empowering the user.
There is no security without freedom. https://wp.puri.sm/posts/apple-is-right-about-privacy-but-wr...
I agree it is a balancing act, I reviewed the key takeaways with a few disagreements:
> Right to Verify: Society has the freedom to inspect the source of all software used, and can run it as they wish, for any purpose (Software Freedom).
This is an age old question raised by proponents of Richard Stallman's vision of what software distribution should be like. I strongly oppose this view, and here is why:
- Software that is critical to security, such as cryptographic libraries and protocols should be open source. At some point, trust needs to be placed on someone. These open source libs can be modified by Apple and we wouldn't know. Ok, then, the argument should be that Apple should open source iOS. Oh...but Apple can do things at kernel level. Ok, force Apple to open source the kernel. Oh...but Apple can trick us with microcode level code. Ok, force Apple to open source that too ~~! This chain can go on to the point where you can just say - I am building the phone myself from scratch. Then, you may ask, why should I trust Pine64's hardware? You can't just arbitrarily stop at some point in this chain of trust!
- Software that makes the Clock app tick and the Weather app give weather information has no business in the Right to Verification. A game that keeps you engaged and Photos app that edits your photos - with everything opensource, the world would be worse off. Innovation would cease. Free low-quality stuff everywhere.
- Users should own the data in an ideal world. I would hold the keys to my own data but then I realize how misinformed, incompetent and careless the general public is with their own keys. Most people can defend their household and their belongings, but when it comes to technology and abstract concepts - it would be a total chaos if every user had to keep their own key safe. I would pay for someone to keep it secure for me (sounds insane, I know but don't we hire security guards?). If that's true, then I might as well pay Apple to keep my stuff secure. When you buy a door lock, you're already placing trust in the vendor who manufactured the lock.
> Right to Verify: Society has the freedom to inspect the source of all software used, and can run it as they wish, for any purpose (Software Freedom).
This is an age old question raised by proponents of Richard Stallman's vision of what software distribution should be like. I strongly oppose this view, and here is why:
- Software that is critical to security, such as cryptographic libraries and protocols should be open source. At some point, trust needs to be placed on someone. These open source libs can be modified by Apple and we wouldn't know. Ok, then, the argument should be that Apple should open source iOS. Oh...but Apple can do things at kernel level. Ok, force Apple to open source the kernel. Oh...but Apple can trick us with microcode level code. Ok, force Apple to open source that too ~~! This chain can go on to the point where you can just say - I am building the phone myself from scratch. Then, you may ask, why should I trust Pine64's hardware? You can't just arbitrarily stop at some point in this chain of trust!
- Software that makes the Clock app tick and the Weather app give weather information has no business in the Right to Verification. A game that keeps you engaged and Photos app that edits your photos - with everything opensource, the world would be worse off. Innovation would cease. Free low-quality stuff everywhere.
- Users should own the data in an ideal world. I would hold the keys to my own data but then I realize how misinformed, incompetent and careless the general public is with their own keys. Most people can defend their household and their belongings, but when it comes to technology and abstract concepts - it would be a total chaos if every user had to keep their own key safe. I would pay for someone to keep it secure for me (sounds insane, I know but don't we hire security guards?). If that's true, then I might as well pay Apple to keep my stuff secure. When you buy a door lock, you're already placing trust in the vendor who manufactured the lock.
> You can't just arbitrarily stop at some point in this chain of trust!
And you shouldn’t. There should be a possibility to verify at every single level, even if it might require special tools. Independent verification is the key to trust. But users can also choose to stop at any point if they so wish.
> - Software that makes the Clock app tick and the Weather app give weather information has no business in the Right to Verification.
Actually, such software should be verifiable and open, too, because otherwise it will have too much power over user, just like any software. It’s basically what Stallman says, and every time users start to use proprietary software in any form, it starts to do things against their will. Power corrupts.
> with everything opensource, the world would be worse off. Innovation would cease. Free low-quality stuff everywhere
I do not see how you came to this conclusion. A lot of free software is of higher quality than the proprietary alternatives. Care to elaborate? You are also using word ‘free’ as if it’s about price. Free software is not gratis.
> but when it comes to technology and abstract concepts - it would be a total chaos if every user had to keep their own key safe.
I fully agree here. The solution however is not to choose an almighty emperor that has infinite power over you, but to allow users to choose whom they trust and change their mind. I trust Purism with my hardware and software, but I also have the power to change my mind and pay someone else to develop my software, since it’s FLOSS.
And you shouldn’t. There should be a possibility to verify at every single level, even if it might require special tools. Independent verification is the key to trust. But users can also choose to stop at any point if they so wish.
> - Software that makes the Clock app tick and the Weather app give weather information has no business in the Right to Verification.
Actually, such software should be verifiable and open, too, because otherwise it will have too much power over user, just like any software. It’s basically what Stallman says, and every time users start to use proprietary software in any form, it starts to do things against their will. Power corrupts.
> with everything opensource, the world would be worse off. Innovation would cease. Free low-quality stuff everywhere
I do not see how you came to this conclusion. A lot of free software is of higher quality than the proprietary alternatives. Care to elaborate? You are also using word ‘free’ as if it’s about price. Free software is not gratis.
> but when it comes to technology and abstract concepts - it would be a total chaos if every user had to keep their own key safe.
I fully agree here. The solution however is not to choose an almighty emperor that has infinite power over you, but to allow users to choose whom they trust and change their mind. I trust Purism with my hardware and software, but I also have the power to change my mind and pay someone else to develop my software, since it’s FLOSS.
I disagree with your viewpoint on a fundamental level, but from a pragmatic view, you are, of course, correct.
That said, your viewpoint's validity is dependent upon being able to trust the hardware manufacturer of your device.
The chain of custody is a huge issue for hardware manufacturers, as Supermicro learned firsthand: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-h...
That said, your viewpoint's validity is dependent upon being able to trust the hardware manufacturer of your device.
The chain of custody is a huge issue for hardware manufacturers, as Supermicro learned firsthand: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-h...
That story has been debunked as being bullshit that was based on absolutely zero evidence. It is fake news.
https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/10/07/bloombergs-big-...
I agree with the rest of your comment though.
https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/10/07/bloombergs-big-...
I agree with the rest of your comment though.
I read that link. I looked up Pixel Envy and read both of that guy's posts about The Big Hack.
I don't really see a debunking anywhere...
A debunking would be people in affected companies and within the U.S. Intelligence community going on record as saying this story is false.
If anything, the total lack of comment lends credibility here.
I don't really see a debunking anywhere...
A debunking would be people in affected companies and within the U.S. Intelligence community going on record as saying this story is false.
If anything, the total lack of comment lends credibility here.
The companies have said it is false.
I wouldn’t expect the intelligence agencies to do so.
If it wasn’t false, there would be clear physical evidence by now.
It is false.
I wouldn’t expect the intelligence agencies to do so.
If it wasn’t false, there would be clear physical evidence by now.
It is false.
I humbly but strongly disagree:
To me it just sounds like learned helplessness but I don't even agree with the premise that we have been helpless. We have a thriving PC ecosystem with Linux and BSDs, most of which I would consider no less secure than my iPhone; in fact, those are the platforms on which we backup our private data.
The issue has been the incredibly fragmented landscape of mobile computing. The free mobile ecosystem has never had the chance to mature because it did not have a reliable foundation (like PC-compatible desktops[0]) to continue building upon. Android too suffers from it, and now Google is trying adopt mainline Linux[1]. Practically, developing a mobile device/OS has been a Sisyphean task.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_compatible
[1]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/11/google-outlines-plan...
To me it just sounds like learned helplessness but I don't even agree with the premise that we have been helpless. We have a thriving PC ecosystem with Linux and BSDs, most of which I would consider no less secure than my iPhone; in fact, those are the platforms on which we backup our private data.
The issue has been the incredibly fragmented landscape of mobile computing. The free mobile ecosystem has never had the chance to mature because it did not have a reliable foundation (like PC-compatible desktops[0]) to continue building upon. Android too suffers from it, and now Google is trying adopt mainline Linux[1]. Practically, developing a mobile device/OS has been a Sisyphean task.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_compatible
[1]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/11/google-outlines-plan...
That's actually a very popular view in the general population. All those features you list as risky have hardware switches on pine phone. Do you actually think iOS and android are so secure that you'd never need to restrict any access to your data with a hardware switch? What about when your data inevitably gets sold by those companies? Is it still secure then? That said using pine phone is a huge hassle and linux is poor choice for daily phone for UX reasons not security.
This is a security vs. privacy distinction. I think you both are responding to different things. Look at something like GrapheneOS for a decent glance into the value of security efforts by Google and the open-source community. Unfortunately, most of these don't exist on something like the PinePhone (yet, and perhaps never due to hardware limitations).
I agree with this except for one thing.
I do want my phone to be such a thing.
The open source community simply hasn’t done what it takes to build a trustworthy, and usable end-user operating system.
We need to close the gap, and in order to do that, we need hardware.
I do want my phone to be such a thing.
The open source community simply hasn’t done what it takes to build a trustworthy, and usable end-user operating system.
We need to close the gap, and in order to do that, we need hardware.
Techno feudalism is the safe choice in the short term but has some pretty negative consequences on longer scales.
The phone doesn't know anything by itself. It has the sensors, but you don't need to install software to use them.
I can disable them in kernel via DT overlay and that's it. There's no magic in it and the phone will know about as much about your location as your typical laptop.
I can disable them in kernel via DT overlay and that's it. There's no magic in it and the phone will know about as much about your location as your typical laptop.
Hmm, that may actually be a fun feature for p-boot. Add a menu option to auto-patch all the sensors out of FDT, to be able to have a reasonably trustworthy alternative to hw switches. :)
The vendors load up your phone with tons of garbage before you even buy it. Why would you trust them to take your privacy seriously? They pre-install malware that harvests your data just to drive the unit cost down by a few dollars. Google isn't interested enough to pressure vendors to provide sources, so you need their garbage blobs to make the phone work, even with a custom ROM. Apple is even worse.
TLDR they have the budget, but no actual reason to take good care of your data.
TLDR they have the budget, but no actual reason to take good care of your data.
> I've got my entire life on a device with sensors, camera, mic and it knows my health
I've got an unpopular view about your lifestyle: this choice was a bad idea.
I've got an unpopular view about your lifestyle: this choice was a bad idea.
You are conflating security and privacy.
If an Adtech company can keep your phone secure, but sells your behavior profile, would you be happy?
If an Adtech company can keep your phone secure, but sells your behavior profile, would you be happy?
Can you build a phone with all these parts?
That's great to see this. Another phone that is easy to repair and provide spare parts is the fairphone. I find their journey towards building an ethical phone interesting too. I'm not sure they sell in the us though...
https://www.fairphone.com/en/
Would I be able to build a phone by putting this all together?
I think I rather buy it. Even building my desktop computer with little fragile parts I kept thinking I'd break it.
I think I rather buy it. Even building my desktop computer with little fragile parts I kept thinking I'd break it.
Plestor(1)
Love this stuff!