“Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”(nature.com)
nature.com
“Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-022-01443-2
876 comments
It's interesting that the linked policy says almost the exact opposite of Fermi's statement, implying that ignorance is sometimes better than knowledge: "...considerations of harm can occasionally supersede the goal of seeking or sharing new knowledge, and a decision not to undertake or not to publish a project may be warranted."
Well, sometimes information can cause harm. For example, revealing a terminal diagnosis to a patient could lead to suicide.
I don't think science should be censored, scientific inquiry should continue with integrity regardless of what people think. What I think is people who can't handle it should not have access to the truths revealed. I generally believe in unrestricted free information but I've been rethinking that for certain cases.
It's not just gender identity. I've seen similar behavior in other groups such as obese people revolting against the "oppressive" science documenting the numerous risks associated with being overweight because it supposedly causes society to marginalize them.
I don't think science should be censored, scientific inquiry should continue with integrity regardless of what people think. What I think is people who can't handle it should not have access to the truths revealed. I generally believe in unrestricted free information but I've been rethinking that for certain cases.
It's not just gender identity. I've seen similar behavior in other groups such as obese people revolting against the "oppressive" science documenting the numerous risks associated with being overweight because it supposedly causes society to marginalize them.
It was common in the middle of the 20th century to not tell a terminally ill patient he/she was dying. We look back at that with horror.
In your example, I'd prefer chosing (assisted) suicide or not. Surely you're not doing me a favor by not letting me die how I want.
In your example, I'd prefer chosing (assisted) suicide or not. Surely you're not doing me a favor by not letting me die how I want.
In 1972 people with horrific treatable diseases were being lied to, so that science could record exactly how they suffered and died:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study
And that's what led to ethics rules that said you can't do that. You'd think you wouldn't need to write it down, but we did and we do.
> By then, 28 patients had died directly from syphilis, 100 died from complications related to syphilis, 40 of the patients' wives were infected with syphilis, and 19 children were born with congenital syphilis.[15]
> The 40-year Tuskegee Study was a major violation of ethical standards,[13] and has been cited as "arguably the most infamous biomedical research study in U.S. history."[16] Its revelation led to the 1979 Belmont Report and to the establishment of the Office for Human Research Protections (OHRP)[17] and federal laws and regulations requiring institutional review boards for the protection of human subjects in studies.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study
And that's what led to ethics rules that said you can't do that. You'd think you wouldn't need to write it down, but we did and we do.
> By then, 28 patients had died directly from syphilis, 100 died from complications related to syphilis, 40 of the patients' wives were infected with syphilis, and 19 children were born with congenital syphilis.[15]
> The 40-year Tuskegee Study was a major violation of ethical standards,[13] and has been cited as "arguably the most infamous biomedical research study in U.S. history."[16] Its revelation led to the 1979 Belmont Report and to the establishment of the Office for Human Research Protections (OHRP)[17] and federal laws and regulations requiring institutional review boards for the protection of human subjects in studies.
I know about Tuskegee. That's a clear example of what not to do. Just one of many documented cases of criminal abuse of human beings. Stuff like this is the reason why informed consent is an absolute requirement these days.
What I meant to say is I'd think twice before telling a depressed patient with a history of suicide attempts about a diagnosis of terminal illness.
What I meant to say is I'd think twice before telling a depressed patient with a history of suicide attempts about a diagnosis of terminal illness.
Assisted suicide could be a completely rational choice, at that point [1]. It would be a choice that you, or anyone else, could not dictate.
1. https://www.statista.com/statistics/792317/medical-condition...
1. https://www.statista.com/statistics/792317/medical-condition...
Information cannot cause harm. Harm is done by people.
That seems oversimplified. If an individual or organisation collects or creates "information", they could/should consider not only what a thief might do with the information, but what they're collecting it in the first place and why. If they know potential dangers, they share at least some responsibility for future damage. If they haven't considered the dangers, this is negligent (mitigated by the act of sincere consideration, not by what dangers were discovered).
Intention exists separately from information (in this context) but they are not independent, they're connected.
A silly example: Let's say someone at Facebook realises they could predict with high confidence the chance of a user voting in favour of extremist political candidates. This is new information, and Facebook has decided to create it. Once created, it could do harm. At this point, saying "information doesn't kill people, people kill people" is a useless abstraction. Sure, it might be "true" in a limited interpretation, but that interpretation doesn't help anyone.
(From an excess of caution, I've constrained the definition of "information" above as something like "information created or collected by humans and our systems". This is to exclude exotic-but-true consideration of literally anything in the universe as "information" e.g. tumours, magnetars, etc etc.)
Intention exists separately from information (in this context) but they are not independent, they're connected.
A silly example: Let's say someone at Facebook realises they could predict with high confidence the chance of a user voting in favour of extremist political candidates. This is new information, and Facebook has decided to create it. Once created, it could do harm. At this point, saying "information doesn't kill people, people kill people" is a useless abstraction. Sure, it might be "true" in a limited interpretation, but that interpretation doesn't help anyone.
(From an excess of caution, I've constrained the definition of "information" above as something like "information created or collected by humans and our systems". This is to exclude exotic-but-true consideration of literally anything in the universe as "information" e.g. tumours, magnetars, etc etc.)
> If they know potential dangers, they share at least some responsibility for future damage.
This line of thinking was used during the dark ages to argue against the spread of science vs. religion.
This line of thinking was used during the dark ages to argue against the spread of science vs. religion.
This is correct and completely irrelevant in the real world. It is similar to numbers cannot cause harm. Information and numbers are nothing more than interlectual constructs, patterns, or platonic ideas.
But collecting information can enable as much harm as collecting some numbers. For example the Nazis started with collecting information about the racial status of as many people as possible, see [1]. The collected information was later used to decide who to deport and kill.
Although, this is another example of humans causing harm, it also shows why collecting information is not harmless. Although the information itself cannot cause anything. It simply has no agency, so it can neither harm nor heal people. But it can enable both.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_certificate
But collecting information can enable as much harm as collecting some numbers. For example the Nazis started with collecting information about the racial status of as many people as possible, see [1]. The collected information was later used to decide who to deport and kill.
Although, this is another example of humans causing harm, it also shows why collecting information is not harmless. Although the information itself cannot cause anything. It simply has no agency, so it can neither harm nor heal people. But it can enable both.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_certificate
That is just wrong or a very unfunny pun. Lots of info is classified because it would be harmful in the wrong hands.
I think the "in the wrong hands" part of your statement actually backs up what he was saying. The information by itself is useless unless someone ACTS upon it.
No, that is at best a dad joke level pun. Like "Falling from great heights never hurt anyone. Landing on the ground did"
> Well, sometimes information can cause harm. For example, revealing a terminal diagnosis to a patient could lead to suicide.
That is arguably, depending in the diagnosis, a good example of a time where suicide may be the good option, where postponing death magnifies suffering, and the only reason to keep the poor patient alive is essentially because we're too busy selfishly thinking about avoiding our own pain of loss to permit them to erase their agony.
That is arguably, depending in the diagnosis, a good example of a time where suicide may be the good option, where postponing death magnifies suffering, and the only reason to keep the poor patient alive is essentially because we're too busy selfishly thinking about avoiding our own pain of loss to permit them to erase their agony.
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I know the people behind statments like these are coming to it with extremly unintelligent and bad faith definitions and intentions, but the actual words are actually correct. If you had the option to delay humanity's discovery of atomic bombs to late 20th century or after, and therefore delay any substantial deep understanding of the atomic physics beneath, you would probably do it. If you had the atomic bomb, you probably wouldn't have shared it with Stalin's USSR or Hitler's Germany and, for that matter, Roosevelt's USA. If you had known in 1990 that the WWW would be used to spread propaganda and track dissidents, you would have probably liked to delay it till more security and decentralization is built in from the outset. This is a very well-discussed topic in philosophy of science and technology and good sci-fi.
Fermi was probably talking about inevitable things, e.g. if climate is already worsening beyond human limits it's always good to know even if it's too late to do anything. But if knowledge (or our pursuit of it) would lead to new dangers, its perfecly reasonable to (try) to limit knowledge and its spread or pursuit.
The dishonesty of the -ve IQ people behind attitudes like the criticized is that they see danger in everything and use moral panic to enforce views. If the actual "dangers" they are freaking out about are legitimate, they would have been justified to supress (non-violently) science and technology)
Fermi was probably talking about inevitable things, e.g. if climate is already worsening beyond human limits it's always good to know even if it's too late to do anything. But if knowledge (or our pursuit of it) would lead to new dangers, its perfecly reasonable to (try) to limit knowledge and its spread or pursuit.
The dishonesty of the -ve IQ people behind attitudes like the criticized is that they see danger in everything and use moral panic to enforce views. If the actual "dangers" they are freaking out about are legitimate, they would have been justified to supress (non-violently) science and technology)
Knowledge itself is inevitable. You cannot control every single person's desire to know more and advance knowledge. I lived in 1980's Romania and the state tried everything it could to suppress knowledge about the outside world. People still found out things they were not supposed to know about. (An ironic example - the Romanian religion scholar Mircea Eliade died in exile during the 1980s. The Romanian state did not mention anything... and the next morning everyone was talking in the bus and at my high school. We were not even supposed to know this person existed...)
I don't know if you realize, but you are cherry picking the subjects which we can talk about (climate change) versus the subject which we cannot talk about (nuclear power, WWW).
The only bad faith actor reaching unintelligent definitions here is the one projecting them unto others.
Hiding this knowledge from the world doesn’t make it not exist. It just makes people less prepared for when malicious actors use it against them. You promote ignorance as a solution to technical problems. I don’t.
Hiding this knowledge from the world doesn’t make it not exist. It just makes people less prepared for when malicious actors use it against them. You promote ignorance as a solution to technical problems. I don’t.
>Fermi was probably talking about inevitable things, e.g. if climate is already worsening beyond human limits it's always good to know even if it's too late to do anything. But if knowledge (or our pursuit of it) would lead to new dangers, its perfecly reasonable to (try) to limit knowledge and its spread or pursuit.
Yes, it's like teaching small children how to make poisons and bombs. It's really much better that children be kept ignorant of such things: this knowledge isn't going to help them, or the world, it's only going to cause problems. Adult humans really aren't any better; they're just bigger children.
Yes, it's like teaching small children how to make poisons and bombs. It's really much better that children be kept ignorant of such things: this knowledge isn't going to help them, or the world, it's only going to cause problems. Adult humans really aren't any better; they're just bigger children.
Why would I need to make bombs when I could just collect the remains of the new years celebration from the road every first January? My parents made sure we had oversight and knew what we were dealing with even if it was only the fun small stuff (that could still burn your face off).
> It's really much better that children be kept ignorant of such things: this knowledge isn't going to help them, or the world, it's only going to cause problems. Adult humans really aren't any better; they're just bigger children.
Yeah, because accidentally mixing cleaning supplies in a way that creates a toxic gas cloud is really better than knowing that common household items can kill you if you aren't careful. Or getting monoxide poisoning because no one told you that using gas grills inside can kill.
Yeah, keep the kids ignorant of dangerous aspects of the world. If they are lucky they will die well before they have to navigate the world on their own.
> It's really much better that children be kept ignorant of such things: this knowledge isn't going to help them, or the world, it's only going to cause problems. Adult humans really aren't any better; they're just bigger children.
Yeah, because accidentally mixing cleaning supplies in a way that creates a toxic gas cloud is really better than knowing that common household items can kill you if you aren't careful. Or getting monoxide poisoning because no one told you that using gas grills inside can kill.
Yeah, keep the kids ignorant of dangerous aspects of the world. If they are lucky they will die well before they have to navigate the world on their own.
> If you had known in 1990 that the WWW would be used to spread propaganda and track dissidents, you would have probably liked to delay it till more security and decentralization is built in from the outset
The premise is interesting, but at least decentralization was really there at the outset. It is just that market forces shrinked it. I honestly don't know what would have been the best medicine to prevent this. During the 90s I felt there was a larger emphasis on protocols, that almost disappeared during the 00's.
The premise is interesting, but at least decentralization was really there at the outset. It is just that market forces shrinked it. I honestly don't know what would have been the best medicine to prevent this. During the 90s I felt there was a larger emphasis on protocols, that almost disappeared during the 00's.
> e.g. if climate is already worsening beyond human limits it's always good to know even
Climate wouldn't have been worsened as much as it did without the technological advances provided by science. It's really, really difficult to cut the Amazonian forrest down using just axes and horse-drawn carts, but once you got mechanised stuff (with the help of science) then it becomes exponentially easier to do it (think just how much science went into the fabrication of bitumen/asphalt, once you have bitumen roads going into and out of the Amazon things get exponentially easier for those who are in the business of cutting trees in there).
Which is to say that I fail to understand how come some of us still believe science and technology can get us out of this mess when it was science and technology that brought us here.
To be clear, I also fully acknowledge that without science and technology our lives would have been way harder, for most of us life wouldn't have been possible at all: without science we would have had no green revolution, which means we still would have had famines around the world, never mind that the green revolution caused a lot of environment-related nasty things, so it's not always black and white.
Climate wouldn't have been worsened as much as it did without the technological advances provided by science. It's really, really difficult to cut the Amazonian forrest down using just axes and horse-drawn carts, but once you got mechanised stuff (with the help of science) then it becomes exponentially easier to do it (think just how much science went into the fabrication of bitumen/asphalt, once you have bitumen roads going into and out of the Amazon things get exponentially easier for those who are in the business of cutting trees in there).
Which is to say that I fail to understand how come some of us still believe science and technology can get us out of this mess when it was science and technology that brought us here.
To be clear, I also fully acknowledge that without science and technology our lives would have been way harder, for most of us life wouldn't have been possible at all: without science we would have had no green revolution, which means we still would have had famines around the world, never mind that the green revolution caused a lot of environment-related nasty things, so it's not always black and white.
> how come some of us still believe science and technology can get us out of this mess when it was science and technology that brought us here.
I can't understand the logic here. The progress of science isn't somehow dead. The problem is our priorities.
For an example, the US just sent $50 billion to Ukraine. Imagine what 50, $1,000,000,000 science grants could accomplish.
I can't understand the logic here. The progress of science isn't somehow dead. The problem is our priorities.
For an example, the US just sent $50 billion to Ukraine. Imagine what 50, $1,000,000,000 science grants could accomplish.
> For an example, the US just sent $50 billion to Ukraine. Imagine what 50, $1,000,000,000 science grants could accomplish.
Not sure your example is clearly bad priorities. (Though generally I think the US wastes too much on the military.) What's the worst case scenario when the money is defending Ukraine instead of science?
Science funding won't as help much if there's an unchecked bully marching across Europe.
Not sure your example is clearly bad priorities. (Though generally I think the US wastes too much on the military.) What's the worst case scenario when the money is defending Ukraine instead of science?
Science funding won't as help much if there's an unchecked bully marching across Europe.
I think you’ve simplified things.
Here’s the president, himself, explaining what’s going on: https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-resurfaced-clip-russia-ba...
Here’s the president, himself, explaining what’s going on: https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-resurfaced-clip-russia-ba...
Speaking as a Russian who grew up in the 90s, NATO was never a real threat to post-Soviet Russia. Our "national patriot" political faction made it into a threat in its propaganda because they needed an existential enemy to build their ideology up on.
Perhaps you can ELI5 because I was under the impression Ukraine was a sovereign nation. Free to pursue any alliances it wishes. And that its 1991 borders were acknowledged in exchange for yielding nuclear weapons to Russia.
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You need to read “The Beginning of Infinity” by David Deutsch. It will help clear up all the muddled thinking I see going on when I read those lines of yours.
Edit: You can also go here and watch this: https://youtu.be/lX-K63pVPTM I still recommend the book though.
Edit: You can also go here and watch this: https://youtu.be/lX-K63pVPTM I still recommend the book though.
The only reason we know that atomic physics leads to mass destruction is because we followed through with the R&D. We only know that the web is used to spread propaganda and track dissidents because we developed it so far for these problems to develop.
You can't block technology based on understandings of consequences that you dont gain until the technology matures. We can't see the future.
You can't block technology based on understandings of consequences that you dont gain until the technology matures. We can't see the future.
On the other hand, nuclear physics is also used for things like treating cancer.
In that sense it's the perfect analogy: you don't really know where your research will end up. Did Rutherford split the atom to cure cancer? No, of course not. Most (or all?) people working on particle physics in the early 20th century would have been quite surprised to learn it would be used as such down the line.
> If you had the atomic bomb, you probably wouldn't have shared it with Stalin's USSR or Hitler's Germany and, for that matter, Roosevelt's USA
If I felt that it was plausible that the genocidal regimes of the USSR or Nazi Germany could have developed such a bomb (which was the case): yes, I absolutely would have shared it with the US.
In that sense it's the perfect analogy: you don't really know where your research will end up. Did Rutherford split the atom to cure cancer? No, of course not. Most (or all?) people working on particle physics in the early 20th century would have been quite surprised to learn it would be used as such down the line.
> If you had the atomic bomb, you probably wouldn't have shared it with Stalin's USSR or Hitler's Germany and, for that matter, Roosevelt's USA
If I felt that it was plausible that the genocidal regimes of the USSR or Nazi Germany could have developed such a bomb (which was the case): yes, I absolutely would have shared it with the US.
As a counterexample, physicists did use particle physics for medical purposes very early on- E.O. Lawrence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Lawrence#Reception
was using it for cancer treatments of various kinds in the 30s.
>If you had the option to delay humanity's discovery of atomic bombs
Humanity's discovery of atomic bombs wasn't published, though. It was demonstrated in terrifying fashion when they were first used. Worse, the first atomic bomb project was actually carried out by Nazi Germany, not the United States, and might have succeeded if not for sabotage campaigns and the collapse of the German economy. And weapons research is a well-known risk since the invention of the arquebus around 1400, when early gun manufacturers jealously guarded their secrets with state encouragement. It's true that we avoid research into novel biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, with a possible fourth "computational" coming into focus, but we do this by avoiding the research itself, wherein the ends are obvious from the beginning, not refusing to publish a finding because you don't like what it said.
Humanity's discovery of atomic bombs wasn't published, though. It was demonstrated in terrifying fashion when they were first used. Worse, the first atomic bomb project was actually carried out by Nazi Germany, not the United States, and might have succeeded if not for sabotage campaigns and the collapse of the German economy. And weapons research is a well-known risk since the invention of the arquebus around 1400, when early gun manufacturers jealously guarded their secrets with state encouragement. It's true that we avoid research into novel biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, with a possible fourth "computational" coming into focus, but we do this by avoiding the research itself, wherein the ends are obvious from the beginning, not refusing to publish a finding because you don't like what it said.
there is a difference between science, as in "understanding nature" and technology, which is about exploiting that knowledge for building something useful. Knowing everything about the atom is harmless, using that knowledge to build an horrendous weapon is evil.
Also, knowing everything about the atom does not affect our behavior, except through technology. Social sciences are more problematic though because they are about us, as part of nature sure, but in the social context we live, which can be affected by what we know about it. So proper considerations must be made when designing the research questions and methods, and when discussing the results.
Also, knowing everything about the atom does not affect our behavior, except through technology. Social sciences are more problematic though because they are about us, as part of nature sure, but in the social context we live, which can be affected by what we know about it. So proper considerations must be made when designing the research questions and methods, and when discussing the results.
> If you had the option to delay humanity's discovery of atomic bombs to late 20th century or after, and therefore delay any substantial deep understanding of the atomic physics beneath, you would probably do it.
The alternative was 20-30 million more dead people via conventional means. There were many teams around the world working to build the bomb. One always wonders about the German team and why they were not first - and I"m glad they were not.
> philosophy of science
Not sure what that is, but do not want.
The alternative was 20-30 million more dead people via conventional means. There were many teams around the world working to build the bomb. One always wonders about the German team and why they were not first - and I"m glad they were not.
> philosophy of science
Not sure what that is, but do not want.
If you don't want philosophy of science, don't comment on an article about the philosophy of science? This isn't some fringe topic for "woke" people, philosophy is fundamental to science and has been from the beginning. It's questions from everything like "what even counts as science" to scientific ethics, to "what is the purpose of science". It's not always about ethics, in fact the 20th century philosophy of science debates were dominated by more practical topics like realism vs instrumentalism.
You cannot just dismiss something you've never heard of and have no idea about
You cannot just dismiss something you've never heard of and have no idea about
Agreed on the first half of your comment.
Philosophy of science, however, is a well established, important, and fascinating field. Keywords: Positivists/Viennese circle, Karl Popper and falsification, Feyerabend and Against Method, Thomas Kuhn and The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, W. V. Quine and the Two Dogmas of Empiricism, the Science Wars.
Philosophy of science, however, is a well established, important, and fascinating field. Keywords: Positivists/Viennese circle, Karl Popper and falsification, Feyerabend and Against Method, Thomas Kuhn and The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, W. V. Quine and the Two Dogmas of Empiricism, the Science Wars.
I don't blame them for not wanting what appears to be a mix of philosophy into science though - in the same way it is understandable that people who never knew what suffrage was would oppose women's suffrage because they think it involves torment. Ignorant but understandable. Unfortunately, philosophy has a long history of actively defining itself as willfully not referencing reality for validation. Not wanting that mixed with science is understandable even if rooted in ignorance.
To add to that: the new experimentalists, Mayo‘s Error statistics and the rise of Bayesianism
Thanks for the Mayo recommendation. I am currently going through her Statistical Inference as Severe Testing, and find it very tiring. So far very little is about actual statistics and the meat of disputes, but rather about meta questions and the he-said, she-said of those disputes. Maybe the prior book Error and the Growth of Experimental Knowledge is a better exposition of the ideas?
I got mich out of it, but only on the meta level also. Afair she never goes into technical detail of e.g. Neyman Pearson, but covers things like how to overcome the Quine-Duhem-problem with statistics, or how to stengthen Popper’s theory.
But on that level I learned a lot, and it trickles down to what is important in actual experimental design and why.
> One always wonders about the German team and why they were not first - and I"m glad they were not.
In regards to this, I believe they were on the right path but they were split in to three groups across Germany. They shared the radioactive material and because of this weren't able to achieve fission (?) due to not having enough material in one spot. Thank $diety for that.
More info: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nuclear_weapons_progr...
In regards to this, I believe they were on the right path but they were split in to three groups across Germany. They shared the radioactive material and because of this weren't able to achieve fission (?) due to not having enough material in one spot. Thank $diety for that.
More info: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nuclear_weapons_progr...
> ignorance is never better than knowledge
this is a moral judgement and a strong claim. I can think of a few types of knowledge off the top of my head that aren't making the world a better place
Something like learning how to tie a noose: this is (in most cases) bad knowledge. This isn't something anyone should learn unless they need it for something that isn't its best known purpose
when it comes to something like race/gender/etc, I can't think of one positive usage of that kind of knowledge, if we can even call it that. I'd argue that even the idea of race/gender/etc is against the goal of equality and if we want true equality these ideas need to be discarded
this is a moral judgement and a strong claim. I can think of a few types of knowledge off the top of my head that aren't making the world a better place
Something like learning how to tie a noose: this is (in most cases) bad knowledge. This isn't something anyone should learn unless they need it for something that isn't its best known purpose
when it comes to something like race/gender/etc, I can't think of one positive usage of that kind of knowledge, if we can even call it that. I'd argue that even the idea of race/gender/etc is against the goal of equality and if we want true equality these ideas need to be discarded
Well, I for one think “the goal of equality” should be discarded. People are to be treated equally and we already have the declaration of universal human rights as a foundational and international document for that.
If you want people to end up all “being equal” to one another you will just end up on the farm, where all animals are equal but some are more equal than others.
Also, I think it quite amusing that you call what Fermi said “a strong claim” and a “moral judgement” and a few lines down you have the audacity to say that certain “ideas need to be discarded”. First of all, some of the “ideas” you talk about are indeed facts. And then who on earth do you think you are to tell other people what they may think of?
If you want people to end up all “being equal” to one another you will just end up on the farm, where all animals are equal but some are more equal than others.
Also, I think it quite amusing that you call what Fermi said “a strong claim” and a “moral judgement” and a few lines down you have the audacity to say that certain “ideas need to be discarded”. First of all, some of the “ideas” you talk about are indeed facts. And then who on earth do you think you are to tell other people what they may think of?
you're sort of assuming what I mean by "equality"
I'm not talking about leveling, I'm talking about something more like job applications that are completely race-sex-etc blind, where that signal isn't even allowed into the mix. I think that in a truly meritocratic system you'll see a diverse representation. No, it might not be perfectly diverse, but it would lead to more (and fairer) diversity and not less
I'm not talking about leveling, I'm talking about something more like job applications that are completely race-sex-etc blind, where that signal isn't even allowed into the mix. I think that in a truly meritocratic system you'll see a diverse representation. No, it might not be perfectly diverse, but it would lead to more (and fairer) diversity and not less
In the international FIDE list of chess grandmasters, 39 out of 1953 are female. That’s 2%. And while I’m certain that there’s some icky misogynistic men who have made some decisions in that regard, I’m equally certain that we will never see the ratio being fifty-fifty. Not even close.
That being said, I really don’t care what we will see or what the outcome will be in a truly meritocratic system. I’m just interested in the merit.
That being said, I really don’t care what we will see or what the outcome will be in a truly meritocratic system. I’m just interested in the merit.
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The knowledge of how to tie a noose hurts no one. Knowledge in and of itself is harmless at rest. As with all knowledge it’s what you do with it. Keeping people in the dark is an immoral solution to evil.
And AR-15s hurt no one. Yet they are purposed to have massive killing power against humans, and massively amplify the damage a single ill person can do. Hypothetically there could be some type of weapon that once discovered could end all life on this planet. If that weapon was trivial to build, it would take 1 person with that knowledge to end eveything. Human knowledge is a human construct, and shouldn’t be thought about in absolutes.
What knowledge is "in and of itself" means nothing because it exists in a context, the only thing that matters in the case of knowledge (or anything) is what's done with it and how it is useful
The noose knot is very similar, if not exactly the same, as several fishing knots[1].
Also, in a rational society, the goal isn't blanket "equality". People are not equal. I'll never have a career as a basketball player.
Equality of opportunity is the goal, not equality of outcome.
Equality of outcome arguments generally boil down to some derivative of "we should take from group a and give to group b, and I should be the one to oversee this".
[1] https://www.knotsforfishing.com/hangmans-knot/
Also, in a rational society, the goal isn't blanket "equality". People are not equal. I'll never have a career as a basketball player.
Equality of opportunity is the goal, not equality of outcome.
Equality of outcome arguments generally boil down to some derivative of "we should take from group a and give to group b, and I should be the one to oversee this".
[1] https://www.knotsforfishing.com/hangmans-knot/
You are conflating knowledge and arbitrarily constructed definitions. My understanding of knowledge is that it is based in some objective ground rather than a changeable definition.
Race and gender are social constructs, not objective facts of reality. I agree though, discard social constructs.
Race and gender are social constructs, not objective facts of reality. I agree though, discard social constructs.
Fermi's quote is not acceptable for publication in Nature according to these new guidelines because he centered on the "men" privileged group and excluded "woman, non-binaries, ..." non-privileged groups.
That might be the finest rebuttal on offer
Also, let's remind the author that quote next time he or she needs surgery: no aenestesia, ignorance is never better than knowledge.
"Yet, people can be harmed indirectly. For example, research may — inadvertently — stigmatize individuals or human groups. It may be discriminatory, racist, sexist, ableist or homophobic."
If it's good research, then it shouldn't have any of these biases. Stigmatization and restrictions of rights is a policy issue. Science is not policy. I think we need to promote this separation more. Too often I see "but the study says this thing". Sure, that may be a scientific fact, but that doesn't mean it's the best thing for society, or even that it provides a complete picture of the issue.
If it's good research, then it shouldn't have any of these biases. Stigmatization and restrictions of rights is a policy issue. Science is not policy. I think we need to promote this separation more. Too often I see "but the study says this thing". Sure, that may be a scientific fact, but that doesn't mean it's the best thing for society, or even that it provides a complete picture of the issue.
This infuriated me during the Covid pandemic. “The science says we need to close schools”. No, the science at most says that Covid will spread more slowly if we close schools. Whether that’s worth it or not is a political question, not a scientific one.
They are using the word science differently, to mean Science, as in "the group of recognized (by us) authorities on a subject".
They're including policy people in with the scientific people though, as "the science".
This. That editorial and its new policies might be justified, but it is definitely a watershed.
The old model was: scientists discover facts about the world, politicians/society decide what to do with these facts.
This new policy undermines the separation of descriptive (purely factual) and prescriptive, normative (infused with value judgements) statements.
Should physicists and engineers worry about whether a discovery they make could be used for new weapons?
The old model was: scientists discover facts about the world, politicians/society decide what to do with these facts.
This new policy undermines the separation of descriptive (purely factual) and prescriptive, normative (infused with value judgements) statements.
Should physicists and engineers worry about whether a discovery they make could be used for new weapons?
> Should physicists and engineers worry about whether a discovery they make could be used for new weapons?
Szilard and Einstein thought it was worth worrying about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein–Szilard_letter
Szilard and Einstein thought it was worth worrying about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein–Szilard_letter
You are too generous. In practice, silencing science is not about good of the people, it is about censorship.
This is basically saying "Scientific research that supports my politics should be allowed, and those that refute it should be banned (because of course anyone who opposes my politics will be hurting people)"
I suspect that it's peoples perception of bias that will drive this, not actual measurable bias. Often people infer bias when they see an opinion they disagree with.
So how do we decide what to study, and who funds what studies? How will the results be communicated to people who lack scientific literacy? What will we do with the results and how will they be published? With or without a paywall? In studies that are impossible to double-blind, how do we make sure that the researchers and participants are not allowing their biases to get into the research?
You can do your best, but you can never completely remove bias from the scientific process
You can do your best, but you can never completely remove bias from the scientific process
I posted this to garner some discussion but wanted to be clear it's not an endorsement. The new IRB ethics guidelines Nature is pushing here is absurd and would be a disaster in my opinion.
> Editors, authors and reviewers will hopefully find the guidance helpful when considering and discussing potential benefits and harms arising from manuscripts dealing with human population groups categorized on the basis of socially constructed or socially relevant characteristics, such as race, ethnicity, national or social origin, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, political or other beliefs, age, disease, (dis)ability or socioeconomic status.
How do you effectively discuss, and communicate, that for example sickle cell anaemia or lactose intolerance affects people of African descent, or skin cancer is prevalent in people of European ancestry? And that poor and badly educated people are susceptible to bad diets, lifestyles and medical issues that are a consequence of that?
> harms arising from manuscripts
I'm pretty sure the readership for papers in Nature is pretty low, and already read by a target audience of academics that already use a scientific dialect that doesn't cause 'offense'. Scientific language is terse and unambiguous for a reason. Efficient and precise transfer of ideas. "Go the shops and get a loaf of bread. If there are eggs, get a dozen".
"Offense" in 2022 is the social construct here. Not age, or disease, or origin.
How do you effectively discuss, and communicate, that for example sickle cell anaemia or lactose intolerance affects people of African descent, or skin cancer is prevalent in people of European ancestry? And that poor and badly educated people are susceptible to bad diets, lifestyles and medical issues that are a consequence of that?
> harms arising from manuscripts
I'm pretty sure the readership for papers in Nature is pretty low, and already read by a target audience of academics that already use a scientific dialect that doesn't cause 'offense'. Scientific language is terse and unambiguous for a reason. Efficient and precise transfer of ideas. "Go the shops and get a loaf of bread. If there are eggs, get a dozen".
"Offense" in 2022 is the social construct here. Not age, or disease, or origin.
> How do you effectively discuss, and communicate, that for example sickle cell anaemia or lactose intolerance affects people of African descent, or skin cancer is prevalent in people of European ancestry? And that poor and badly educated people are susceptible to bad diets, lifestyles and medical issues that are a consequence of that?
Don't worry, it says in the guidelines that race and ethnicity aren't real:
> Race and ethnicity are sociopolitical constructs. Humans do not have biological races, at least based on modern biological criteria for the identification of geographical races or subspecies.
This, of course, is going to be Good News to people of African descent (where sickle cell anemia is ~20x more likely in black newborns than white [1]), Ashkenazi Jewish people (at higher risk for a number of different genetic illnesses [2]), or pretty much every non-white person with lactose intolerance [3]...just to name a few examples.
[1] https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/sicklecell/features/keyfinding-tr....
[2] https://www.gaucherdisease.org/blog/5-common-ashkenazi-genet...
[3] https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/lactose-intoleran....
Don't worry, it says in the guidelines that race and ethnicity aren't real:
> Race and ethnicity are sociopolitical constructs. Humans do not have biological races, at least based on modern biological criteria for the identification of geographical races or subspecies.
This, of course, is going to be Good News to people of African descent (where sickle cell anemia is ~20x more likely in black newborns than white [1]), Ashkenazi Jewish people (at higher risk for a number of different genetic illnesses [2]), or pretty much every non-white person with lactose intolerance [3]...just to name a few examples.
[1] https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/sicklecell/features/keyfinding-tr....
[2] https://www.gaucherdisease.org/blog/5-common-ashkenazi-genet...
[3] https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/lactose-intoleran....
To do you the favor, as ashkenazi jew (at higher risk for a number of different genetic illnesses) nothing about my understanding of this is predicated upon the concept of a race. That there is a genetically distinct haplotype group that corresponds to many folk that share these traits with me, is sufficient. By the way, I don't think "African descent" is a race by any means of my understanding of the word...
I grant you that "Ashkenazi Jew" is not a race by any conventional definition. But no, there's no "genetically distinct haplotype" that defines it. It's "Jews from central and eastern Europe", vs. those from Africa, the Middle East and Spain. [1]
It's a broad, vague category, that is nonetheless sometimes still useful. Just like race. We don't pretend that Ashkenazi Jews don't exist, or are verboten from polite discussion because they are a "social construct."
> By the way, I don't think "African descent" is a race by any means of my understanding of the word...
Well, yeah. I pulled my punches there. I should have just said "black people", but even I felt squeamish about it. A great example of how this stuff confuses language and makes science harder.
[1] https://www.cancer.gov/publications/dictionaries/genetics-di...
It's a broad, vague category, that is nonetheless sometimes still useful. Just like race. We don't pretend that Ashkenazi Jews don't exist, or are verboten from polite discussion because they are a "social construct."
> By the way, I don't think "African descent" is a race by any means of my understanding of the word...
Well, yeah. I pulled my punches there. I should have just said "black people", but even I felt squeamish about it. A great example of how this stuff confuses language and makes science harder.
[1] https://www.cancer.gov/publications/dictionaries/genetics-di...
So you agree that humans do not have biological races, but you disagree with guidelines that promote a more accurate terminology?
That is not what these "guidelines" do. I quoted the part where they deny that race is biological at all. There is simply no other way to read the words. Once again:
> Race and ethnicity are sociopolitical constructs. Humans do not have biological races, at least based on modern biological criteria for the identification of geographical races or subspecies.
This is simply false. It's fiction. A substitution of political ideology for fact. People are attempting to turn "we don't have a precise test for race" into "race does not exist". Even ignoring the fact that today anyone can go to 23andMe and get a genetic test that will assign them a percentage composition by race / ethnic group, it's obvious that race is a useful, if imprecise, real-world categorization. We can acknowledge this without being discriminatory.
This entire conversation is the equivalent of someone claiming that water was a "sociopolitical construct" before scientists knew what atoms and elements were, because we couldn't define it chemically. If HN existed in the pre-times, you'd have people chiming in that "other clear liquids exist and can be confused with water! the classification is incomplete!" as proof of claim.
> Race and ethnicity are sociopolitical constructs. Humans do not have biological races, at least based on modern biological criteria for the identification of geographical races or subspecies.
This is simply false. It's fiction. A substitution of political ideology for fact. People are attempting to turn "we don't have a precise test for race" into "race does not exist". Even ignoring the fact that today anyone can go to 23andMe and get a genetic test that will assign them a percentage composition by race / ethnic group, it's obvious that race is a useful, if imprecise, real-world categorization. We can acknowledge this without being discriminatory.
This entire conversation is the equivalent of someone claiming that water was a "sociopolitical construct" before scientists knew what atoms and elements were, because we couldn't define it chemically. If HN existed in the pre-times, you'd have people chiming in that "other clear liquids exist and can be confused with water! the classification is incomplete!" as proof of claim.
Is that false? It seems to me to be the current scientific consensus.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3737365/ - "Genetic data sets are used to see if biological races exist in humans and in our closest evolutionary relative, the chimpanzee. Using the two most commonly used biological concepts of race, chimpanzees are indeed subdivided into races but humans are not."
https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2017/science-genetics-res... - "In the biological and social sciences, the consensus is clear: race is a social construct, not a biological attribute."
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/48157/pdf - "none of the race concepts is compatible with the patterns of variation revealed by our analyses."
> it's obvious that race is a useful, if imprecise, real-world categorization. We can acknowledge this without being discriminatory.
The approach of genetic scientists seems to be to use the words "ancestry" or "population", which do not risk as much ambiguity or overlap with the meaning of "race" as applied to other species.
>This entire conversation is the equivalent of someone claiming that water was a "sociopolitical construct" before scientists knew what atoms and elements were
A more accurate comparison is that of scientists deciding that Pluto isn't actually a planet, because it no longer meets the criteria. There was a bit of a stir about this but eventually it's been accepted, and rightly so as linguistic precision is a good thing!
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3737365/ - "Genetic data sets are used to see if biological races exist in humans and in our closest evolutionary relative, the chimpanzee. Using the two most commonly used biological concepts of race, chimpanzees are indeed subdivided into races but humans are not."
https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2017/science-genetics-res... - "In the biological and social sciences, the consensus is clear: race is a social construct, not a biological attribute."
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/48157/pdf - "none of the race concepts is compatible with the patterns of variation revealed by our analyses."
> it's obvious that race is a useful, if imprecise, real-world categorization. We can acknowledge this without being discriminatory.
The approach of genetic scientists seems to be to use the words "ancestry" or "population", which do not risk as much ambiguity or overlap with the meaning of "race" as applied to other species.
>This entire conversation is the equivalent of someone claiming that water was a "sociopolitical construct" before scientists knew what atoms and elements were
A more accurate comparison is that of scientists deciding that Pluto isn't actually a planet, because it no longer meets the criteria. There was a bit of a stir about this but eventually it's been accepted, and rightly so as linguistic precision is a good thing!
Read the links. Because those aren't providing evidence for the claim. They're just repeatedly asserting what I've already told you is faulty reasoning: we don't have a precise genetic definition of "race" today, therefore it doesn't exist.
That's wrong. Regarding the specific papers:
The first explicitly admits that race exists in the opening sentence (oops), then proceeds to say "the two most commonly used biological concepts of race" don't work in humans, therefore race doesn't exist ("There are no objective criteria for choosing one adaptive trait over another to define race. As a consequence, adaptive traits do not define races in humans.")
This is exactly the fallacious thinking I'm calling out. Great example.
The second is not a paper at all, but still admits that there's at least some biological basis for race, even though it's not precise. That's fine -- I'm not claiming it is precise:
> Research indicates that the concept of “five races” does, to an extent, describe the way human populations are distributed among the continents—but the lines between races are much more blurred than ancestry testing companies would have us believe
The third is saying that a single, specific measurement of genetic diversity fails to define race. Again, that's fine. Saying "test X doesn't define race" != "race does not exist":
> These limitations on FST are demonstrated algebraically and in the context of analyzing dinucleotide repeat allele frequencies for a set of eight loci genotyped in eight human groups and in chimpanzees. In our analyses, estimates of FST fail to identify important variation.
Overall, these illustrate exactly what I've said: race is clearly real and we know it when we see it, but it's not precise, and we don't have a biological test that defines it. Those who extend this to "race is a sociopolitical construct" are engaged in a through-the-looking-glass form of motivated reasoning. And it's a very convenient form of reasoning, because if you make it "wrong" to say that race exists, you prevent anyone from doing the research that might produce such a test.
That's wrong. Regarding the specific papers:
The first explicitly admits that race exists in the opening sentence (oops), then proceeds to say "the two most commonly used biological concepts of race" don't work in humans, therefore race doesn't exist ("There are no objective criteria for choosing one adaptive trait over another to define race. As a consequence, adaptive traits do not define races in humans.")
This is exactly the fallacious thinking I'm calling out. Great example.
The second is not a paper at all, but still admits that there's at least some biological basis for race, even though it's not precise. That's fine -- I'm not claiming it is precise:
> Research indicates that the concept of “five races” does, to an extent, describe the way human populations are distributed among the continents—but the lines between races are much more blurred than ancestry testing companies would have us believe
The third is saying that a single, specific measurement of genetic diversity fails to define race. Again, that's fine. Saying "test X doesn't define race" != "race does not exist":
> These limitations on FST are demonstrated algebraically and in the context of analyzing dinucleotide repeat allele frequencies for a set of eight loci genotyped in eight human groups and in chimpanzees. In our analyses, estimates of FST fail to identify important variation.
Overall, these illustrate exactly what I've said: race is clearly real and we know it when we see it, but it's not precise, and we don't have a biological test that defines it. Those who extend this to "race is a sociopolitical construct" are engaged in a through-the-looking-glass form of motivated reasoning. And it's a very convenient form of reasoning, because if you make it "wrong" to say that race exists, you prevent anyone from doing the research that might produce such a test.
The guidelines include the qualifier "at least based on modern biological criteria". This is true: if you use the modern biological criteria for race, then there is only one human race.
Nobody just says that "observable differences in humans are rarely genetically related to actual genetic differences", they say "race has absolutely no meaning in humans - but here in animals it means exactly what lay-people mean when they say it".
The elites are panicking about the perceived mental limits of the commoners. Normals know the limits of the words they use and actual bigots won't be deterred.
The elites are panicking about the perceived mental limits of the commoners. Normals know the limits of the words they use and actual bigots won't be deterred.
No one is saying it has absolutely no meaning. They're saying that its meaning has its basis in culture rather than in biology.
If you were to collect the DNA of every living human today and send the information to an alien species, would they say "aha, this clearly falls into five (or however many) pretty distinct categories"? Would anyone be able to tell them how to delineate those categories? Based on what I've read, I don't think so, which implies that what is meant by "race" is more cultural than biological.
If you were to collect the DNA of every living human today and send the information to an alien species, would they say "aha, this clearly falls into five (or however many) pretty distinct categories"? Would anyone be able to tell them how to delineate those categories? Based on what I've read, I don't think so, which implies that what is meant by "race" is more cultural than biological.
> they say "race has absolutely no meaning in humans - but here in animals it means exactly what lay-people mean when they say it"
Weird hill to stand on in a thread that started with me saying that race is a cultural concept that has little to no utility in science outside of its cultural context, lawtalkingguy.
Weird hill to stand on in a thread that started with me saying that race is a cultural concept that has little to no utility in science outside of its cultural context, lawtalkingguy.
"Humans do not have biological race" is correct if and only if you change the definition of "race" to whatever definition these academics have made up expressly to make the statement true.
If you use any definition that wasn't specifically concocted to make the statement true (i.e. any definition used by normal people or by actual scientists doing real work, say prior to 1990), it remains false.
If you use any definition that wasn't specifically concocted to make the statement true (i.e. any definition used by normal people or by actual scientists doing real work, say prior to 1990), it remains false.
Yeah, I agree that's what's probably going on here. Being nincompoops, they've likely redefined "biological race" to mean something tautological, like this:
> biological race is a collection of N genes that clearly separate all races; no such set of genes exists, therefore biological race doesn't exist.
Academics love this kind of stuff. The danger is that this up-is-down wordplay works its way into things that actually matter. Then it's (quite literally) Orwellian. I guarantee that the panel of clerics at Nature won't be so precise in their application of the funhouse rules when it's in their ideological interest to ignore them.
> biological race is a collection of N genes that clearly separate all races; no such set of genes exists, therefore biological race doesn't exist.
Academics love this kind of stuff. The danger is that this up-is-down wordplay works its way into things that actually matter. Then it's (quite literally) Orwellian. I guarantee that the panel of clerics at Nature won't be so precise in their application of the funhouse rules when it's in their ideological interest to ignore them.
What is the implication here, that geneticists decided in 1990 to pack in "real work" in order to work up a grand conspiracy to wipe out an entire concept?
I think if you were doing scientific work in this area, you would want political cover.
"I'm just studying why people whose ancestors grew up in one area are more likely to have a certain gene than people whose ancestors grew up in a different area. It has absolutely nothing to do with race".
"I'm just studying why people whose ancestors grew up in one area are more likely to have a certain gene than people whose ancestors grew up in a different area. It has absolutely nothing to do with race".
No, I'm just guessing that the inflection point of productive scientists being financially displaced by useless academia career optimizers was some time in the last few decades.
"Black people" isn't a genetic category either. So maybe you should follow these oh-so Orwellian ethics guidelines and define what you mean by that and note whether it was a class that was self assigned by the group or by yourself or third parties and how that assignment was made.
> That there is a genetically distinct haplotype group that corresponds to many folk that share these traits with me, is sufficient
This is what race means. You are taking the same referent and giving it a different designator.
This is what race means. You are taking the same referent and giving it a different designator.
If that's the case I'm sure you can provide a link to a dictionary stating as much. In reality, such haplotype groups, when they even exist, do not correlate with what people call "race".
You mean one of the politically activist dictionaries like Webster, which have lately frequently changed the definition of words like "racism"? I'm sure if it becomes an issue they'll change their definition of "race" too, if they haven't already.
And sure, not all races correspond directly to a specific HG, but all races have clear genetic differences which can be identified and classified purely mechanically. Multi-locus fixation clustering is an example of one such mechanical procedure. Unsupervised, something like k-means will generate racial groups equivalent to the ones humans come up with intuitively.
In your case, the HG in question obviously corresponds to one such cluster.
And sure, not all races correspond directly to a specific HG, but all races have clear genetic differences which can be identified and classified purely mechanically. Multi-locus fixation clustering is an example of one such mechanical procedure. Unsupervised, something like k-means will generate racial groups equivalent to the ones humans come up with intuitively.
In your case, the HG in question obviously corresponds to one such cluster.
It was your choice of dictionary! No need to respond like that.
I read your comment as a snarky version of "read a dictionary" - apologies if that was not the intended meaning.
Well I don't think you'd find a dictionary that ever used that definition, because it's not the definition. And it has nothing to do with your allegation that dictionaries are woke and changing.
[deleted]
> Don't worry, it says in the guidelines that race and ethnicity aren't real:
Personally I find this criticism incredibly disingenuous. It sets up a strawman and doesn't even bother to consider the author's reasoning.
To be clear, I don't really mind whether "race" is a suitable word to descibe ethnic groups, heritage or whatever, nor do I know much about genetics.
No one would deny that the examples you mention aren't real. I'm not making an argument either way, but if someone were, it's easy to think of potential starting points. Such as, Historical reasons based on connections to racisms or eugenics. Maybe even biological/genetics reasons, like being based too much off of external characteristics leading to incorrect assumptions about heritage. Perhaps these terms over simply something with too many contributing factors to be useful without misinterpretation.
Wikipedia's descriptions of both suggest that the author's description is, at the very least, not uncommon.
Personally I find this criticism incredibly disingenuous. It sets up a strawman and doesn't even bother to consider the author's reasoning.
To be clear, I don't really mind whether "race" is a suitable word to descibe ethnic groups, heritage or whatever, nor do I know much about genetics.
No one would deny that the examples you mention aren't real. I'm not making an argument either way, but if someone were, it's easy to think of potential starting points. Such as, Historical reasons based on connections to racisms or eugenics. Maybe even biological/genetics reasons, like being based too much off of external characteristics leading to incorrect assumptions about heritage. Perhaps these terms over simply something with too many contributing factors to be useful without misinterpretation.
Wikipedia's descriptions of both suggest that the author's description is, at the very least, not uncommon.
Everyone is of African descent, depending on how far back you look. So it's a rather vague term, and becoming less useful over time as previously distinct groups become more intermixed.
In studies of conditions like sickle cell anaemia or lactose intolerance or skin cancer it would probably be more useful to relate those to particular genotypes and/or phenotypes rather than relying on which "race" field each experimental subject selected on the intake form.
In studies of conditions like sickle cell anaemia or lactose intolerance or skin cancer it would probably be more useful to relate those to particular genotypes and/or phenotypes rather than relying on which "race" field each experimental subject selected on the intake form.
I was waiting for the first person to say this, which is why I explicitly wrote "black" when describing the disproportionate rates of sickle cell in black children vs. white children. This isn't some rhetorical game. We know what "race" is, intuitively, and we know that it correlates strongly with real-world biological outcomes.
These guidelines are gaslighting people into ignoring broadly useful categories because we don't have a reductive way of defining them. We don't have a biological test that defines race (yet), ergo, it doesn't exist. Except that's wrong. It's absurd.
> In studies of conditions like sickle cell anaemia or lactose intolerance or skin cancer it would probably be more useful to relate those to particular genotypes and/or phenotypes rather than relying on which "race" field each experimental subject selected on the intake form.
If we could do that -- relate the (known) gene for sickle cell to some other "genotype" that captures the racial bias we know exists -- we'd have a strict biological definition for race, wouldn't we?
Aside from that, we know the "phenotype" that correlates with the illness. Black people have it, at high rates.
These guidelines are gaslighting people into ignoring broadly useful categories because we don't have a reductive way of defining them. We don't have a biological test that defines race (yet), ergo, it doesn't exist. Except that's wrong. It's absurd.
> In studies of conditions like sickle cell anaemia or lactose intolerance or skin cancer it would probably be more useful to relate those to particular genotypes and/or phenotypes rather than relying on which "race" field each experimental subject selected on the intake form.
If we could do that -- relate the (known) gene for sickle cell to some other "genotype" that captures the racial bias we know exists -- we'd have a strict biological definition for race, wouldn't we?
Aside from that, we know the "phenotype" that correlates with the illness. Black people have it, at high rates.
Actually, sickle cell anemia is disproportionately high only in specific populations of black people. The black race is more genetically diverse than all other races combined. Race has a very poor basis in science vs specific genetic lines correlated with specific geographical regions of genetic drift.
> Actually, sickle cell anemia is disproportionately high only in specific populations of black people.
I wouldn't be surprised if we had, by this point, some more specific way of breaking down the susceptible population (other than the gene itself, which we know). It doesn't change the broader point that, breaking things down by "race" alone, we see huge, impactful differences.
Even in drug development, there's a huge push to break down clinical trials by gender and race, because not all drugs work the same in different ethnic populations. By these guidelines, I guess we're not allowed to do that? Race doesn't exist!
I wouldn't be surprised if we had, by this point, some more specific way of breaking down the susceptible population (other than the gene itself, which we know). It doesn't change the broader point that, breaking things down by "race" alone, we see huge, impactful differences.
Even in drug development, there's a huge push to break down clinical trials by gender and race, because not all drugs work the same in different ethnic populations. By these guidelines, I guess we're not allowed to do that? Race doesn't exist!
When breaking phenomenon down by race it’s important to differentiate phenomenon caused by sociological perceptions of race and actual biological effects of genetic drift, which are distinctly different. I never said race doesn’t exist I merely said it has a poor genetic basis when we can study the actual sub populations of genetic geographic locale. It’s important to test drug trials across different races in the sense that it’s important to try to capture effects across multiple ethnic populations, but in reality race is merely a poor but easy metric to do. Like I said, black people have more genetic diversity than any other race combined. Sub Saharan African has more drift from Aboriginal Australian than White Norwegian, even though the first two groups are both considered black.
To be clear: the sickle cell trait appears elevated in sub-Saharan Africa and descendants from that area. This also means for example black people from Somali aren’t really affected even though Somali is part of the African continent. Does this help clarify my point?
To be clear: the sickle cell trait appears elevated in sub-Saharan Africa and descendants from that area. This also means for example black people from Somali aren’t really affected even though Somali is part of the African continent. Does this help clarify my point?
Are you taking about scientific research (as per the original article) or healthcare delivery? Medical researchers should take the take the time to be precise about characterizing their subjects, and rely on subject-reported demographic data as little as possible. Practitioners and public health have to take a more pragmatic approach, and rely on generalizations for the sake of convenience. Those are different use cases with different best practices.
Black isn't a "race", it's a social category. You can't actually be serious? In America, black includes people of Caribbean descent, people from South America, African-Americans, someone that stepped off a plane from Ethiopia. It's a completely meaningless term in regards to science. You can't actually be serious?
"Blind isn't an actual biological condition, it's a social category"
The same thing can be different categories. Black is social category, and is also a very well defined biological state of the most visible organ in your body, and is associated with certain genes. Instead of repeatedly stating the name of those different genes every time you say something about them, you can simply say the name of the most visible marker of them and still be correct the vast majority of time.
The same thing can be different categories. Black is social category, and is also a very well defined biological state of the most visible organ in your body, and is associated with certain genes. Instead of repeatedly stating the name of those different genes every time you say something about them, you can simply say the name of the most visible marker of them and still be correct the vast majority of time.
The notion was that a "race" is something of such significant scientific relevance, that not being able to use "Black" to refer to a "race" would be a disservice. But you aren't here saying Black is a race, it is a "defined biological state of the most visible organ in your body". Okay, what does that have to do with race? Did you not understand my previous post explaining that "people who are socially considered Black" is basically a useless scientific criteria outside of its social circumstances?
You seem a little bit more focused on repeating some rhetorical dunk you read somewhere online than actually understanding what is being discussed. Take a moment and actually consider what I'm writing. To repeat the example that I gave before, research on Ashkenazi Jewish diseases is not hindered by calling it research on the specific haplotype group that it is. The poster that brought up Ashkenazi Jews is misunderstanding if not disingenuous. I think you also don't get the difference between what a haplotype group is in this context, and your concept of "race".
You seem a little bit more focused on repeating some rhetorical dunk you read somewhere online than actually understanding what is being discussed. Take a moment and actually consider what I'm writing. To repeat the example that I gave before, research on Ashkenazi Jewish diseases is not hindered by calling it research on the specific haplotype group that it is. The poster that brought up Ashkenazi Jews is misunderstanding if not disingenuous. I think you also don't get the difference between what a haplotype group is in this context, and your concept of "race".
> "Blind isn't an actual biological condition, it's a social category"
Uh, this is actually true. Blindness is a legal definition not a medical condition. There are numerous medical conditions that can lead to a person being legally blind.
Uh, this is actually true. Blindness is a legal definition not a medical condition. There are numerous medical conditions that can lead to a person being legally blind.
If the biological state is "very well defined" then please point us to the definition. Is it based solely on skin hue and reflectance, or are there other factors? Do some people in South Asia with very dark skin meet that definition or are they excluded?
I'm not just trying to be argumentative here. If scientists want to produce high quality, reproducible research then they must precisely define their terms. They can't just assume that everyone has the same understanding and knows what they mean.
I'm not just trying to be argumentative here. If scientists want to produce high quality, reproducible research then they must precisely define their terms. They can't just assume that everyone has the same understanding and knows what they mean.
Well — no.
Those people have a shared biological lineage, with only a relatively short period of differentiation — while they have radically different cultures.
What you’re describing is “black” being useless as a social construct (ie, I know nothing about their culture) but useful medically/scientifically (ie, there’s groupings of medical conditions correlated with that lineage).
I would go so far as to say only racists use “black” as a social construct — and project that the medical groupings are the same.
Those people have a shared biological lineage, with only a relatively short period of differentiation — while they have radically different cultures.
What you’re describing is “black” being useless as a social construct (ie, I know nothing about their culture) but useful medically/scientifically (ie, there’s groupings of medical conditions correlated with that lineage).
I would go so far as to say only racists use “black” as a social construct — and project that the medical groupings are the same.
What medical conditions do you know of that are specific to every group in the (allegedly useless and racist) social category of "Black"?
> Race and ethnicity are sociopolitical constructs. Humans do not have biological races, at least based on modern biological criteria for the identification of geographical races or subspecies.
The first sentence is a liberal shibboleth: it has no more meaning than "colors (of light) are social constructs", or "embryos are sovial constructs." People will go to war over whether and where the lines of "sociopolitival constructs" get drawn...
...and the second sentence is that war, attempting to deny that genetic or biological information can inform sociopolitical categorizations.
The first sentence is a liberal shibboleth: it has no more meaning than "colors (of light) are social constructs", or "embryos are sovial constructs." People will go to war over whether and where the lines of "sociopolitival constructs" get drawn...
...and the second sentence is that war, attempting to deny that genetic or biological information can inform sociopolitical categorizations.
The second sentence is a statement of fact in the world of genetics, phylogeny, and taxonomy. Your criticism of it tells me you are not adequately knowledgeable about these areas of science to participate in this conversation at the level required.
I think we're on the same side here.
My point is that all three statements are true, but that in the later two cases the otherwise "socially constructed" boundaries are so useful and so meaningful to people that to say they "don't exist" is very odd.
There is no clear boundary between blue and green (and some cultures have a word for green-blue), but nobody goes about saying that "colors don't exist."
Ditto embryos. Genetics, phylogeny, and taxonomy provide definitions, which are socially constructed based on ground truth and utility for purpose. Each definition is "socially constructed" but to say the categories "don't exist" because they are socially defined is nuts.
My point is that all three statements are true, but that in the later two cases the otherwise "socially constructed" boundaries are so useful and so meaningful to people that to say they "don't exist" is very odd.
There is no clear boundary between blue and green (and some cultures have a word for green-blue), but nobody goes about saying that "colors don't exist."
Ditto embryos. Genetics, phylogeny, and taxonomy provide definitions, which are socially constructed based on ground truth and utility for purpose. Each definition is "socially constructed" but to say the categories "don't exist" because they are socially defined is nuts.
Scientific language is terse and unambiguous for a reason. Efficient and precise transfer of ideas. "Go the shops and get a loaf of bread. If there are eggs, get a dozen".
I can't tell if this was tongue-in-cheek, but I've only ever heard that as an example of unclear communication: https://old.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/2z83kl/a_wife_sends_...
I can't tell if this was tongue-in-cheek, but I've only ever heard that as an example of unclear communication: https://old.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/2z83kl/a_wife_sends_...
I think it's a joke to illustrate the point.
This reminds me of the HN threads on programmer jokes. ;-)
This reminds me of the HN threads on programmer jokes. ;-)
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I genuinely don't understand what is so problematic about this article. Is the article's guidelines even binding in the first place? Many here seem to be saying that this editoral is promoting censorship, but that's not my interpretation at all. It just seems to be encouraging "respectful, non-stigmatizing language to avoid perpetuating stereotypes", avoid conflating different but similar terms and in particular asking people to be really clear about categories pertaining to people to avoid "potential misuse" by the media. All of this seems reasonable to me, and also good science.
While I haven't checked the codes of ethics cited in sociology or anthropoly, the article suggests that their recommendations aren't completely original. Obviously, since I've not looked into this, I'm not making any claims about this particular point.
While I admit that I did not read the full article in detail, since a number of people here are mostly discussing the fourth paragraph, or are discussing the first sentance on race, I wonder how many have actually read this properly.
While I haven't checked the codes of ethics cited in sociology or anthropoly, the article suggests that their recommendations aren't completely original. Obviously, since I've not looked into this, I'm not making any claims about this particular point.
While I admit that I did not read the full article in detail, since a number of people here are mostly discussing the fourth paragraph, or are discussing the first sentance on race, I wonder how many have actually read this properly.
Yes it is binding. Articles can be rejected or modified on these grounds.
And sadly, I correctly guessed what the article would be about just from reading the title.
So glad I saw this after my comment, I couldn't believe what I was reading and am so very glad I wasn't the only one, much less from GP.
I appreciate you calling it out greatly, they've been circling the drain but wow.
I appreciate you calling it out greatly, they've been circling the drain but wow.
The ethics argument is a cover story for capturing greater power and control.
Most of this seems wildly unenforceable at a practical level. And yes that's all really bad and non-secular and society will be harmed because people, even with the best intentions, will try to filter facts. The two terminology clarifications they make I don't mind though: sex vs gender and race vs biological lineage. I think society would be better off with very clear and precise usage of those terms.
I mentally flip a table every time I hear someone colloquially say "sex is a social construct" (they mean gender) or get hesitant about describing the sex of their gestating baby because they want to leave it ambiguous or on the flip side want to have a "gender reveal" party. People care about the sex of your baby, not their gender. And it's totally fair to study the effects of biological lineage on modern humans instead of treating all humans as the same biological profile or reducing the question to tribally relevant characteristics like skin color (race is a social construct, but biological lineage is not).
Consequently this is why the zeitgeist is so weird. Everything is about e.g. racial identity but race is a social construct that by definition you can't apply based on biological attributes (just like gender) so... ... ??? ...
I mentally flip a table every time I hear someone colloquially say "sex is a social construct" (they mean gender) or get hesitant about describing the sex of their gestating baby because they want to leave it ambiguous or on the flip side want to have a "gender reveal" party. People care about the sex of your baby, not their gender. And it's totally fair to study the effects of biological lineage on modern humans instead of treating all humans as the same biological profile or reducing the question to tribally relevant characteristics like skin color (race is a social construct, but biological lineage is not).
Consequently this is why the zeitgeist is so weird. Everything is about e.g. racial identity but race is a social construct that by definition you can't apply based on biological attributes (just like gender) so... ... ??? ...
>Most of this seems wildly unenforceable at a practical level.
At a practical level, it's very enforceable. You just setup a a "science-must-respect-dignity-of-all-humans" committee at every major publication and university, and just block any violating papers from publication, prevent grants from going to 'bad' research and don't hire anyone who does subscribe to your orthodoxy.
We're well on our way to do that (if not already there).
At a practical level, it's very enforceable. You just setup a a "science-must-respect-dignity-of-all-humans" committee at every major publication and university, and just block any violating papers from publication, prevent grants from going to 'bad' research and don't hire anyone who does subscribe to your orthodoxy.
We're well on our way to do that (if not already there).
I already recall reading about several instances of it happening.
> wildly unenforceable at a practical level
I suspect it will be enforced the way open source codes of conduct are enforced. Very, very selectively, by very, very suspiciously agenda-ed people.
I suspect it will be enforced the way open source codes of conduct are enforced. Very, very selectively, by very, very suspiciously agenda-ed people.
It's trivially enforceable. Academic institutions have been absolutely ideologically and politically captured. The long march through not only the institutions, but especially the HR departments has achieved total victory.
As you've identified, they've tied themselves into knots with inconsistencies and hypocritical positions. There is no logic to be found here, only insanity masquerading as such. Luckily for everyone else, the scientific method will remain, even if it is temporarily suppressed.
Ideology can remain inconsistent longer than you can remain fed and housed while opposing it.
People talk about "the pendulum swinging" as if there an automatic balancing mechanism that will correct things (low-agency, wishful thinking), but Russia took almost a century to get back to normal. And Dark Ages last many centuries.
You go underground as many have had to in the past.
"Become the Taliban" is not a great solution.
"Science", such is my understanding, is a rigorous process to get to the truth of a situation.
As such, "Science" has no overlap with concepts such as respect, dignity, or rights. Science exists outside of those concepts in, as my own definition above, it is a search for the truth of a situation without fear nor favour. Objectivity, as pure as possible.
Subjectivity; the interpretation of scientific results is where opportunists may see avenues for attacking their perceived enemies. This is outside of "science".
Having said all that, however, there may come a responsibility in the presentation of scientific results to curtail potential misinterpretations, but then also, science should not be delayed whilst considering the myriad creative forms of malevolence humanity may take lest nothing would ever be published. Stuck in the mud.
As such, "Science" has no overlap with concepts such as respect, dignity, or rights. Science exists outside of those concepts in, as my own definition above, it is a search for the truth of a situation without fear nor favour. Objectivity, as pure as possible.
Subjectivity; the interpretation of scientific results is where opportunists may see avenues for attacking their perceived enemies. This is outside of "science".
Having said all that, however, there may come a responsibility in the presentation of scientific results to curtail potential misinterpretations, but then also, science should not be delayed whilst considering the myriad creative forms of malevolence humanity may take lest nothing would ever be published. Stuck in the mud.
funny why do we do no experiments on humans and try to minimize experiments on animals and control it with an ethicsboard if it has no overlap?
Of course we do experiments on humans.
Every psychology student is subject to them (and that's often mandated by their universities to enter the next semester). Pharmaceutical companies are mandated to run human test-runs of new medication before making them available to the general public.
Human harm is considered, and migitated, but there's always a certain level of harm that is considered "acceptable". That's what the ethics board does.
Every psychology student is subject to them (and that's often mandated by their universities to enter the next semester). Pharmaceutical companies are mandated to run human test-runs of new medication before making them available to the general public.
Human harm is considered, and migitated, but there's always a certain level of harm that is considered "acceptable". That's what the ethics board does.
No, science must pursue the truth, no matter where it leads. There is no such thing as a hate fact.
I think there is a lot more nuance than people admit. Lets take an example of we have a deadly disease spreading through the population (much more deadly than covid) . Let's say a scientist finds out that the disease is primarily (exclusively) spread by red haired people. Should they just publish the finding? The fact becoming openly known might lead to mobs of people chasing red hairs and locking them up or even lynching them.
A better way is likely to quietly talk to the authorities first.
Another example could be that there is some disease that is entirely harmless but 100% infectious and deadly to some group (e.g. Black people). Now should that research just be released into the public? This might encourage some groups to purposefully infect these people, thus putting them in significant danger.
I admit these are somewhat hypothetical scenarios, but you said the truth should always come up,. I just give counterexamples. I'm sure we had many situations where resesearch was suppressed in reality for some reason or another.
Another example could be that there is some disease that is entirely harmless but 100% infectious and deadly to some group (e.g. Black people). Now should that research just be released into the public? This might encourage some groups to purposefully infect these people, thus putting them in significant danger.
I admit these are somewhat hypothetical scenarios, but you said the truth should always come up,. I just give counterexamples. I'm sure we had many situations where resesearch was suppressed in reality for some reason or another.
>I think there is a lot more nuance than people admit. Lets take an example of we have a deadly disease spreading through the population (much more deadly than covid) . Let's say a scientist finds out that the disease is primarily (exclusively) spread by red haired people. Should they just publish the finding?
Yes, they should.
>A better way is likely to quietly talk to the authorities first.
OK - talk to the authorities first, and then publish the results.
>Another example could be that there is some disease that is entirely harmless but 100% infectious and deadly to some group (e.g. Black people). Now should that research just be released into the public?
Yes, it should.
>I admit these are somewhat hypothetical scenarios, but you said the truth should always come up,. I just give counterexamples.
You didn't give counter-examples. You gave examples of times where the information should be shared with the public and then asserted that it shouldn't for .. I don't know what reason.
Here's a pragmatic reason for sharing truthful information with the public: If you want the population to trust public health officials, public health officials need to trust the public with the truth.
Yes, they should.
>A better way is likely to quietly talk to the authorities first.
OK - talk to the authorities first, and then publish the results.
>Another example could be that there is some disease that is entirely harmless but 100% infectious and deadly to some group (e.g. Black people). Now should that research just be released into the public?
Yes, it should.
>I admit these are somewhat hypothetical scenarios, but you said the truth should always come up,. I just give counterexamples.
You didn't give counter-examples. You gave examples of times where the information should be shared with the public and then asserted that it shouldn't for .. I don't know what reason.
Here's a pragmatic reason for sharing truthful information with the public: If you want the population to trust public health officials, public health officials need to trust the public with the truth.
ding ding ding
I don’t think a lot of scientists and health officials realize that their work is two sided. ESP if you’re working with public health the other side is who you view as the unwashed masses. You don’t get to make commandments
Maintaining trust with the public is the most important thing to do, and the best way to do that is transparency.
All the games about if we “should tell people xyz” needs to end if these institutions want to rebuild their credibility with the broader public.
The cdc is at least being retrospective but it seems like nature has gone the opposite way and are institutionally entrenching this idea that the public can’t be trusted with the truth.
I don’t think a lot of scientists and health officials realize that their work is two sided. ESP if you’re working with public health the other side is who you view as the unwashed masses. You don’t get to make commandments
Maintaining trust with the public is the most important thing to do, and the best way to do that is transparency.
All the games about if we “should tell people xyz” needs to end if these institutions want to rebuild their credibility with the broader public.
The cdc is at least being retrospective but it seems like nature has gone the opposite way and are institutionally entrenching this idea that the public can’t be trusted with the truth.
The attitude that the public can’t be trusted with certain facts is a catalyst for all the wacked out conspiracy theories that have been cropping up.
You don't need to make up a hypothetical disease. Just look at the current monkeypox situation with health authorities waffling on how best to message that 98% of cases are in men who have sex with men.
It's simultaneously totally relevant information from a public health standpoint while also being stigmatizing. Completely ignoring the facts/suppressing that info to avoid stigma would contribute to greater spread within and outside of that community, and is irresponsible. Nuance, indeed.
It's simultaneously totally relevant information from a public health standpoint while also being stigmatizing. Completely ignoring the facts/suppressing that info to avoid stigma would contribute to greater spread within and outside of that community, and is irresponsible. Nuance, indeed.
You mean in the United States. Monkeypox isn't a MSM disease worldwide. And you should perhaps look at the case trends in countries where children have started going back to school.
And France. And Spain. And the UK. Basically everywhere that it wasn't previously endemic it's 95%+ MSM cases. It isn't 100%, nor is it only sexually transmitted. But burying our heads in the sand to overlook obvious facts and preventing messaging to at-risk communities out of sensitivity is contributing to _why_ there are cases in kids at schools.
Science brings facts.
Politics deals with how we use those facts.
If the fact brought about by science leads one group of people to kill another, we are faced with a political decision. Do we allow this or do we stand against it.
We need the separation of science and politics. Otherwise, important facts will be politically suppressed and falsehoods will be presented as truth for political gain.
It’s a story as old as the world, I don’t understand why so many people still want to mix those two.
Politics deals with how we use those facts.
If the fact brought about by science leads one group of people to kill another, we are faced with a political decision. Do we allow this or do we stand against it.
We need the separation of science and politics. Otherwise, important facts will be politically suppressed and falsehoods will be presented as truth for political gain.
It’s a story as old as the world, I don’t understand why so many people still want to mix those two.
I don't think you can separate science from politics. The scientific method that relies on repeatable experimental results is just a workaround for the general problem that the search for knowledge is done by highly opinionated, stubborn, egotistical, and very biased human beings. When people become scientists they don't lose those attributes, it's just that reproducibility of results act as a check on their biases. You can't remove politics from science without removing people from science. Even if the methodology is good, the question of which hypotheses are worth pursuing and which experiments should be done is political.
That said, I think scientists should be given pretty wide latitude to explore wherever their curiosity leads them, and results shouldn't be rejected from publication without really good reasons that go beyond "the results of this experiment make us uncomfortable". (Though as a practical matter, research that doesn't serve some political or social objective probably isn't going to get funding.)
That said, I think scientists should be given pretty wide latitude to explore wherever their curiosity leads them, and results shouldn't be rejected from publication without really good reasons that go beyond "the results of this experiment make us uncomfortable". (Though as a practical matter, research that doesn't serve some political or social objective probably isn't going to get funding.)
You can’t remove politics from the people practicing science. Because they are people. But science it’s self is a process. It does not have, by definition, political inputs or outputs.
> the question of which hypotheses are worth pursuing and which experiments should be done is political
In a sense yes, but it also proves my point.
The example I think of is this. For the sake of argument, imagine there is a left leaning scientist and a right leaning one and they study economic differences between ethnic groups. The left leaning scientist will have political biases, politics, etc, because he is human, and guided by these biases he makes the decision to hypothesise the economic differences are caused by systemic inequality. This is indeed an example of a political choice guiding the scientific process.
I think that is perfectly fine. I don’t see this as “politics being in science” I see this as “politics being in humans practicing science”.
Now, coming back to the right leaning scientist, he too has biases and politics and a sense of morality etc because he is human. Also guided by these things he hypothesises economic differences between ethnic groups are caused by innate biological differences.
Just like the left scientist, I think this is fine. This is politics in the human practicing science, not politics in science directly.
Where politics in science appears is, if the prevalent political system discourage research into innate biological differences between humans and interferes in the scientific process to prevent researcher into this topic.
And that is what I have a problem with. And that is exactly what is being done through guidelines like this.
> the results of this experiment make us uncomfortable
I think we both know that is exactly how these rules will be used.
> the question of which hypotheses are worth pursuing and which experiments should be done is political
In a sense yes, but it also proves my point.
The example I think of is this. For the sake of argument, imagine there is a left leaning scientist and a right leaning one and they study economic differences between ethnic groups. The left leaning scientist will have political biases, politics, etc, because he is human, and guided by these biases he makes the decision to hypothesise the economic differences are caused by systemic inequality. This is indeed an example of a political choice guiding the scientific process.
I think that is perfectly fine. I don’t see this as “politics being in science” I see this as “politics being in humans practicing science”.
Now, coming back to the right leaning scientist, he too has biases and politics and a sense of morality etc because he is human. Also guided by these things he hypothesises economic differences between ethnic groups are caused by innate biological differences.
Just like the left scientist, I think this is fine. This is politics in the human practicing science, not politics in science directly.
Where politics in science appears is, if the prevalent political system discourage research into innate biological differences between humans and interferes in the scientific process to prevent researcher into this topic.
And that is what I have a problem with. And that is exactly what is being done through guidelines like this.
> the results of this experiment make us uncomfortable
I think we both know that is exactly how these rules will be used.
[deleted]
Finally, a charitable reading!
The article draws the comparison with the ethics of doing science on human subjects. We mostly agree in principle, that some science simply shouldn't be done if it harms human test subjects[1], even if it would produce important scientific output. We're willing to make that trade-off because the cost outweighs the potential results. The article simply extends this principle to harms done to humans that are not test subjects.
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentatio...
The article draws the comparison with the ethics of doing science on human subjects. We mostly agree in principle, that some science simply shouldn't be done if it harms human test subjects[1], even if it would produce important scientific output. We're willing to make that trade-off because the cost outweighs the potential results. The article simply extends this principle to harms done to humans that are not test subjects.
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentatio...
Those are terrible examples. In both cases you're advocating to keep vital information about how a disease works and spreads hidden in order to protect the social standing of an ethnic group while that very group is most at risk.
Heck this isn't even an hypothetical scenario, you'd suggest we should have kept secret the ways in which monkeypox spreads?
Heck this isn't even an hypothetical scenario, you'd suggest we should have kept secret the ways in which monkeypox spreads?
Ah, we've already tried this! Check out the early history of HIV in SF - scientists/doctors/politicians knew how it was spread and refused to do or say anything lest they further stigmatize the gay community, which was disastrous to the actual gay community.
This is incorrect. Politicians and doctors refused to do very much about it because gay lives weren’t considered worth saving. Before the viral factor was discovered it was believed it was literally divine punishment to kill gays.
Those sorts of hypothetical "facts" don't just happen though. At best there might be some research indicating a very high correlation between hair colour and level of infectiousness. But just as often as not it turns out not to be the straightforward connection an initial finding might suggest. So there's no reason to withhold publishing of the results of such research, but every reason to ensure that new research is presented in a way that makes it clear that they're new preliminary findings that are likely to be overturned as more research is done and better understanding is achieved. If that still sets the mobs loose then your only option is government intervention to protect the victims. Suppressing knowledge about the real world is not a feasible long (or even medium) term strategy anyway - it's there to be discovered by anyone and everyone.
The question is where and how do you draw the boundary for censorship? If you can't use science to draw the boundary, what is left? Let humans with their own biases do it? This inevitably turns into dictatorship.
You can come up with hypotheticals where truth strategy may harm some people. But censorship strategy is guaranteed to harm more people in the long run.
Also your hypotheticals can be easily countered:
> disease that is entirely harmless but 100% infectious and deadly to some group (e.g. Black people). Now should that research just be released into the public? This might encourage some groups to purposefully infect these people, thus putting them in significant danger.
Let's say you decided to censor your research. And then few years later the groups that you mentioned got lucky enough to discover the same disease. Now, because your research wasn't public, the world was not able to develop a cure.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
You can come up with hypotheticals where truth strategy may harm some people. But censorship strategy is guaranteed to harm more people in the long run.
Also your hypotheticals can be easily countered:
> disease that is entirely harmless but 100% infectious and deadly to some group (e.g. Black people). Now should that research just be released into the public? This might encourage some groups to purposefully infect these people, thus putting them in significant danger.
Let's say you decided to censor your research. And then few years later the groups that you mentioned got lucky enough to discover the same disease. Now, because your research wasn't public, the world was not able to develop a cure.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
> A better way is likely to quietly talk to the authorities first.
Who will then have to create a public health campaign targeted at, for example, gay men, and everyone will learn of the research anyways.
Besides which, most countries are led by people who constantly leak secrets. It would get out long before any action could be taken.
Who will then have to create a public health campaign targeted at, for example, gay men, and everyone will learn of the research anyways.
Besides which, most countries are led by people who constantly leak secrets. It would get out long before any action could be taken.
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What alternative are you suggesting? That the public be lied to? Misled? "Despite report, this disease is not primarily spread by red hair people"?. Then what happens when the truth does get out? Who do you think the public believes then?
It was pretty clear this approach was used during Covid. "You don't need to wear a mask", "Covid vaccines prevent infection" are just a couple claims that were made "for the public's own good".
Then when people found out they were lied to, they were then skeptical of everything said thereafter.
It's a terrible approach.
It was pretty clear this approach was used during Covid. "You don't need to wear a mask", "Covid vaccines prevent infection" are just a couple claims that were made "for the public's own good".
Then when people found out they were lied to, they were then skeptical of everything said thereafter.
It's a terrible approach.
To be clear, vaccines do provide a degree of protection from infection. They also reduce the severity and likelyhood of transmission of diseases.
The two major vaccines - Pfizer and Moderna, never tested for infection prevention. There was literally no data to even say if they did or didn't prevent infection.
You can look up the clinical trial endpoints. Patients were only tested for infections if they experienced symptoms. I believe it was only AZ or J&J that regularly tested to capture any effect on infection rate.
But it was stated several times "The vaccine will stop you from getting Covid". Why? Because if you tell people "Well, the vaccine won't stop you from getting it, but it will make it less likely you'll get really sick", they thought people wouldn't take it.
You can look up the clinical trial endpoints. Patients were only tested for infections if they experienced symptoms. I believe it was only AZ or J&J that regularly tested to capture any effect on infection rate.
But it was stated several times "The vaccine will stop you from getting Covid". Why? Because if you tell people "Well, the vaccine won't stop you from getting it, but it will make it less likely you'll get really sick", they thought people wouldn't take it.
I didn't mention COVID. You're focusing on COVID vaccines because that is the anti-vax cause at the moment.
It's the case with ALL vaccines that they don't provide 100% protection. They are still incredibly useful for preventing infection, reducing the severity of disease and preventing further transmission.
Btw, vaccines work by clearing infection quickly, not preventing infection. The virus infects you and begins to multiply. Whether your body has the antibodies to recognize the virus determines whether you will suffer from illness or be well.
It's the case with ALL vaccines that they don't provide 100% protection. They are still incredibly useful for preventing infection, reducing the severity of disease and preventing further transmission.
Btw, vaccines work by clearing infection quickly, not preventing infection. The virus infects you and begins to multiply. Whether your body has the antibodies to recognize the virus determines whether you will suffer from illness or be well.
> quietly talk to the authorities first.
This is risky because the authorities are are almost certainly idiots.
This is risky because the authorities are are almost certainly idiots.
>> A better way is likely to quietly talk to the authorities first
Which ones?
The church? Trump?
People have different authorities.
Which ones?
The church? Trump?
People have different authorities.
> The fact becoming openly known might lead to mobs of people chasing red hairs and locking them up or even lynching them.
You missed this small little thing called Rule of Law, which - in any polity worth living in - bans vigilante justice and forming mobs to punish people without trial.
You also missed this other small little thing called the Internet, where you can publish a paper on arxiv for free without review, or post its PDF link on 4chan completely anonymously. Together "Red-Haired People Spread Disease" being a fact, and thus is almost certainly being discovered independently by several labs and institutions at the same time, this will ensure that the truth will come out, and much faster than you think. The only difference is if the public hears it from your institutions first, i.e. your legitimacy and credibility in the public eye.
You missed this small little thing called Rule of Law, which - in any polity worth living in - bans vigilante justice and forming mobs to punish people without trial.
You also missed this other small little thing called the Internet, where you can publish a paper on arxiv for free without review, or post its PDF link on 4chan completely anonymously. Together "Red-Haired People Spread Disease" being a fact, and thus is almost certainly being discovered independently by several labs and institutions at the same time, this will ensure that the truth will come out, and much faster than you think. The only difference is if the public hears it from your institutions first, i.e. your legitimacy and credibility in the public eye.
Agreed, this is the future, ie. Decentralization. I must admit, the term "decentralize" directly conjures up a vivid, bright high resolution image of a day trading megalomaniac crypto-bro living in Miami pumping iron and taking testosterone supplements. It is kinda like how Hitler ruined a mustache style however gorgeous that damn mustache is. Folks, decentralization is cool when centralization is not viable, tenable or stable.
I don't think this is the right way to think about this.
The editors of a journal do screen the articles that get published. Their criteria are hidden. They do not need to justify in any way why the accept or reject a submission. The process is entirely opaque. Scientists are thoroughly obsessed with publishing in top tier journals in many important fields, like biomedicine, so the whims of the editors are extremely influential. Here we have the faceless editors at least specifying some of the criteria they will be using. This is beneficial. We can now discuss and critique these criteria. We can also, if we disagree, choose not to publish in these journals, or post on twitter that our article was rejected on these grounds.
So overall, I think this is a net win.
The Nature Publishing group is not science. Science will survive whatever self-righteous fad the Nature editors decide to champion next week. If you want to criticise anyone, criticise the post-war generation of academics who have allowed journals to have too much power and landed us in this stupid soul crushing arrangement we have today.
So overall, I think this is a net win.
The Nature Publishing group is not science. Science will survive whatever self-righteous fad the Nature editors decide to champion next week. If you want to criticise anyone, criticise the post-war generation of academics who have allowed journals to have too much power and landed us in this stupid soul crushing arrangement we have today.
Imagine if we devoted a tremendous amount of resources to studying whether being left or right handed increased your chances of transmitting COVID. Then millions of people online start citing scientific papers saying that right handed people spread COVID more often. Then some left handed people attack right handed people (similar to how Asian Americans are being brutalized in public during the pandemic). The point is that choosing to study the differences in certain demographic groups makes a big assumption that it's important to study the groups for whatever reason.
You could also become some kind of “hate researcher” if you wanted to. Pick a group of people you don’t like(ethnic, socio, political, whatever), and start hammering out publications on their IQ, epidemiology, sociopolitical beliefs, etc. Maybe do a bit of P-hacking to make the deleterious stuff really pop out. Eventually you’ll have a nice corpus of literature out there framing your target group as stupid, disease ridden and ignorant.
Yes, exactly. Then you could write popular opinion books about the studies which flesh out the conclusion. Then it could be a motivating tool for an entire political party. You could go on tour to promote your "controversial" books. People will say that the facts must be heard and both sides should be represented.
That sounds like an unrealistically stretched hypothetical to justify not pursuing otherwise interesting scientific avenues.
Sounds like you're trying to censor information by dismissing the left/right hand hypothesis as "unrealistically stretched".
To put it another way: the way you feel about studying handedness being linked to COVID is the way I feel about studying an assumed link between race and "intelligence". It's not "otherwise interesting" at all. It's ignorant at best.
To put it another way: the way you feel about studying handedness being linked to COVID is the way I feel about studying an assumed link between race and "intelligence". It's not "otherwise interesting" at all. It's ignorant at best.
But if you did notice a subgroup/IQ correlation would you ignore it? Because I wouldn't ignore a handedness/sickness correlation. You can't fix what you don't measure and investigate.
You're ASSUMING that race could be linked to "intelligence", that it's important to study, just like I was ASSUMING that handedness might have something to do with spreading COVID. There is clear bias introduced by what we think is important to measure.
giraffe_lady(7)
you'd probably benefit from reading and thinking about this wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism
sadly, what is called a fact is a malleable thing in the hands of the ill-intentioned, and all too many bigots are more than happy to pass off pseudo-science as the real deal. "science" isn't some abstract thing, it's composed of people and their actions, and as i think every adult will recognize, people can be turbo-shitty. like every other human endeavor, it deserves a close eye and critical thought. (i say this as a big fan of science in general and a degree-holder in the physical sciences.)
sadly, what is called a fact is a malleable thing in the hands of the ill-intentioned, and all too many bigots are more than happy to pass off pseudo-science as the real deal. "science" isn't some abstract thing, it's composed of people and their actions, and as i think every adult will recognize, people can be turbo-shitty. like every other human endeavor, it deserves a close eye and critical thought. (i say this as a big fan of science in general and a degree-holder in the physical sciences.)
If the science is bad, then the science is bad. If you do good science and find a result that doesn't fit your preconceived ideas of right and wrong, that doesn't make the science bad. You don't need to be concerned with the ethical impact of the truth, but you do need to be concerned with the ethics of your process.
I don't understand what the actions of pseudo-science bigots has to do with someone who is doing real science. Idiots will be idiots regardless of what real science says.
I don't understand what the actions of pseudo-science bigots has to do with someone who is doing real science. Idiots will be idiots regardless of what real science says.
Oh, good and bad. It's just that simple!
The point is that results can be true and correct even if you dislike them. Conversely they can be false and incorrect even if we like them. How could you miss that and instead jump to this snarky response?
I didn't miss that at all.
Sorry, this is completely off topic. Why aren't you using capital letters? I've seen this trend starting to gain more traction and it makes no sense to me.
The textual medium of the internet has allowed for the creation of differing written registers. You may have learned to write in a "standard way" in school that implicitly established itself as "the right way to write." What was left out was an analysis of the socio-linguistic component (probably because you were in 5th or 6th grade and this topic is addressed much later in specialized courses).
Proper or "improper" writing can signal formality and casualness and that sort of casualness is how I read the response. For example, I deliberately pick a register when I consider the audience I'm addressing and use it as a tool to convey side-band information. You may have seen social media posts where nearly every word is suffixed with an emoji. I'd consider this its own register. While I might use all lowercase in a text message or on a discord server, I'd likely only expect to read an emoji-laden message on Facebook or Twitter. Also if it came from me, it would probably look sarcastic as that's not a register I typically use.
Either way, people can do this accidentally, purposefully, or sometimes as a function of the medium. Eg: I can't write in an emoji-laden register here because HN strips emoji. An entire register, simply, and absolutely inaccessible. We probably agree that it doesn't fit the tone of the site, but still, we can imagine how the texture of the site would change if it was allowed and the pros and cons of that decision.
Proper or "improper" writing can signal formality and casualness and that sort of casualness is how I read the response. For example, I deliberately pick a register when I consider the audience I'm addressing and use it as a tool to convey side-band information. You may have seen social media posts where nearly every word is suffixed with an emoji. I'd consider this its own register. While I might use all lowercase in a text message or on a discord server, I'd likely only expect to read an emoji-laden message on Facebook or Twitter. Also if it came from me, it would probably look sarcastic as that's not a register I typically use.
Either way, people can do this accidentally, purposefully, or sometimes as a function of the medium. Eg: I can't write in an emoji-laden register here because HN strips emoji. An entire register, simply, and absolutely inaccessible. We probably agree that it doesn't fit the tone of the site, but still, we can imagine how the texture of the site would change if it was allowed and the pros and cons of that decision.
I see it as pure laziness. The purpose of writing is to communicate and exchange information. Just like misformatting some markup language will result in communications errors, so will not writing proper English with an English-reading audience.
Emojis are different; they're an addition, meant to convey extra meaning or information that's difficult to convey with pure text. Omitting capitals doesn't do this; it just makes the text harder to read.
Emojis are different; they're an addition, meant to convey extra meaning or information that's difficult to convey with pure text. Omitting capitals doesn't do this; it just makes the text harder to read.
August 25, 2022
Dear respondent,
Your points are duly noted. However; may I suggest you write in a more formal register? Your prose reflects the lack of effort with which I am displaying by using this very form of writing. A higher degree of effort on your part will demonstrate the level of commitment to the written word that this audience expects. Please respond in kind.
Yours Truly,
kelseyfrog
Dear respondent,
Your points are duly noted. However; may I suggest you write in a more formal register? Your prose reflects the lack of effort with which I am displaying by using this very form of writing. A higher degree of effort on your part will demonstrate the level of commitment to the written word that this audience expects. Please respond in kind.
Yours Truly,
kelseyfrog
People have been writing like this for like 25 years. You see it on subcultures all over the internet. HN is a bastion of formal pedantry, so it’s a bit more uncommon here, but it’s been a thing for a long time.
Positing ideas that can be disproven is science. It's also how thinking works.
"In some cases, however, potential harms to the populations studied may outweigh the benefit of publication."
I'm sure our demigods will gladly enlighten us with their wisdom to distinguish between misthoughts and correct thoughts.
So that when journalists claim to be following the science there will be no dissenting voice in research to disagree.
Those who defend opposing ideas will have no leg to stand on and will rightfully be labeled science deniers
I'm sure our demigods will gladly enlighten us with their wisdom to distinguish between misthoughts and correct thoughts.
So that when journalists claim to be following the science there will be no dissenting voice in research to disagree.
Those who defend opposing ideas will have no leg to stand on and will rightfully be labeled science deniers
At a very simple level, it’s akin to not yelling bomb in a theatre since it would be faster and more efficient for everyone to evacuate in an orderly manner without being informed of the bomb. I feel like our society does require some gatekeepers and can’t be run well if it’s just vocal collectives yelling at each other.
>I feel like our society does require some gatekeepers and can’t be run well if it’s just vocal collectives yelling at each other.
I'm glad you recognize in yourself that you can't be trusted with certain information and you need, personally, a big brother to lie to you. You do you. I'd appreciate if you didn't make the same assessment about me, and others.
I'm glad you recognize in yourself that you can't be trusted with certain information and you need, personally, a big brother to lie to you. You do you. I'd appreciate if you didn't make the same assessment about me, and others.
Idealism is great, as an ideal. It starts to become a little delusional when you think your idealism lines up with reality.
I'm not sure I espoused any utopian view.
Reading back, I'm actually genuinely interested to know why you want a third-party 'gatekeeper' to protect you personally from certain kinds of (uncomfortable) scientific facts. I don't judge, you can make that decisions for yourself, but why do you personally want to write that blank-check to a third-party, so that they decide what scientific facts you should or shouldn't be allowed to learn? Maybe you can elaborate?
Reading back, I'm actually genuinely interested to know why you want a third-party 'gatekeeper' to protect you personally from certain kinds of (uncomfortable) scientific facts. I don't judge, you can make that decisions for yourself, but why do you personally want to write that blank-check to a third-party, so that they decide what scientific facts you should or shouldn't be allowed to learn? Maybe you can elaborate?
Because I’ve come to the realization that there maybe some people that have the time, drive and intelligence to look at all the facts and come to the “right” decision but in the overwhelming number of cases people don’t want to do this exercise and will rely on frameworks provided. If one isn’t provided they’ll come up with their own and there’s no guarantees any of it will work out for the good of society.
This coupled with the fact that there is currently a firehose of “information” that I doubt even people with the best of abilities and intentions can adequately grok if they’re not specifically paid for the time to think about them.
This coupled with the fact that there is currently a firehose of “information” that I doubt even people with the best of abilities and intentions can adequately grok if they’re not specifically paid for the time to think about them.
> I feel like our society does require some gatekeepers
Which should be people who broadly speaking share your political and ethical beliefs, yes?
And, if the gatekeepers are people with a different sense of morality, it is fascism and must be torn down in the name of freedom, correct?
Which should be people who broadly speaking share your political and ethical beliefs, yes?
And, if the gatekeepers are people with a different sense of morality, it is fascism and must be torn down in the name of freedom, correct?
There is something to building around a consensus on who they are roughly around the phrase “first cause no harm”
What is harm?
Physical or mental pain and anguish
A lot of devout believers experienced mental anguish when hearing the earth wasn’t the center of the universe.
And yet it moves.
And yet it moves.
So we need Big Brother to protect us from facts that will harm us.
We need the government to protect us from a lot of things that can harm us.
The next step then is the government deciding what will harm us, so we can be protected. And then you got a very nice little fascist country that runs perfectly, and the trains run on time to move all those harmful people away from where good people live. Out of sight, out of mind.
The government already decides that. That’s what laws are. Why are you speaking rhetorically?
And as time progresses, new laws are no longer common sense ("don't steal, don't murder"), but become increasingly cumbersome, while still acceptable ("don't drive a vehicle unless we license you for vehicle use") and ultimately problematic ("You can't own sulphuric acid"). Before too long, laws become criminal, and those must not be obeyed ("You have to believe this or that, or at least shut up about what you really think, because doing otherwise may hurt people").
Too many laws make everyone a criminal, for eventually, everyday, innocent behaviour becomes criminalised.
When you arrive at thoughtcrime, it already is too late.
Too many laws make everyone a criminal, for eventually, everyday, innocent behaviour becomes criminalised.
When you arrive at thoughtcrime, it already is too late.
As usual, the academic sociopoliticals don't want to delve into issues of wealth and poverty. Notably this has been a real issue in pharmaceutical drug safety trials, which have tended to exploit poor populations in industrialized countries as well as, more recently, the impoverished populations in developing nations. There's no mention of this whatsoever, instead it's about this:
"We also developed two specific sections — on race, ethnicity and racism; and on sex, gender identity/presentation and orientation — that clarify issues with these constructs and explain that racism and discrimination on the basis of gender identity or sexual orientation should have no place in science."
The trend towards moving clinical trials to developing nations was first commented on over a decade ago and is in full swing today, but it doesn't even get a mention. For example:
"Ethical and Scientific Implications of the Globalization of Clinical Research", Glickman et al. (2009)"
http://archive.sph.harvard.edu/schering-plough-workshop/file...
> "This phenomenon raises important questions about the economics and ethics of clinical research and the translation of trial results to clinical practice: Who benefits from the globalization of clinical trials? What is the potential for exploitation of research subjects?"
That's an explicit fundamentally important ethical issue, but raising it might imperil academic funding from pharmaceutical corporations, so they stick to their safe topics. It's really kind of pathetic.
"We also developed two specific sections — on race, ethnicity and racism; and on sex, gender identity/presentation and orientation — that clarify issues with these constructs and explain that racism and discrimination on the basis of gender identity or sexual orientation should have no place in science."
The trend towards moving clinical trials to developing nations was first commented on over a decade ago and is in full swing today, but it doesn't even get a mention. For example:
"Ethical and Scientific Implications of the Globalization of Clinical Research", Glickman et al. (2009)"
http://archive.sph.harvard.edu/schering-plough-workshop/file...
> "This phenomenon raises important questions about the economics and ethics of clinical research and the translation of trial results to clinical practice: Who benefits from the globalization of clinical trials? What is the potential for exploitation of research subjects?"
That's an explicit fundamentally important ethical issue, but raising it might imperil academic funding from pharmaceutical corporations, so they stick to their safe topics. It's really kind of pathetic.
>That's an explicit fundamentally important ethical issue, but raising it might imperil academic funding from pharmaceutical corporations, so they stick to their safe topics.
That's exactly what it is. It's like theatre. No one is consistently talking about that issue, or a host of other issues. The focus is always on a few highly polarized and controversial issues. No one is really interested in breaking character and trying to change the conversation to something of substance. It's easier that way, everything is predictable and controlled.
That's exactly what it is. It's like theatre. No one is consistently talking about that issue, or a host of other issues. The focus is always on a few highly polarized and controversial issues. No one is really interested in breaking character and trying to change the conversation to something of substance. It's easier that way, everything is predictable and controlled.
10 years ago, if someone said that "woke" people got control of institutions and are censoring science that goes against their ideology, I would think that person is crazy. Right now, they even publish manifestos explicitly stating they will be censoring science if it goes against (woke) advocacy groups' ideologies.
Now the crazy person is not the guy denouncing the woke people marching through institutions. It is the guy that sees all this madness in the world and pretends it is not happening.
Now the crazy person is not the guy denouncing the woke people marching through institutions. It is the guy that sees all this madness in the world and pretends it is not happening.
From the article:
> Science has for too long been complicit in perpetuating structural inequalities and discrimination in society.
> Finally, authors should use inclusive, respectful, non-stigmatizing language in their submitted manuscripts.
> Race and ethnicity are sociopolitical constructs.
—-
To me, this sounds like a clergyman espousing articles of faith and commandments.
> Science has for too long been complicit in perpetuating structural inequalities and discrimination in society.
> Finally, authors should use inclusive, respectful, non-stigmatizing language in their submitted manuscripts.
> Race and ethnicity are sociopolitical constructs.
—-
To me, this sounds like a clergyman espousing articles of faith and commandments.
It's like they jotted down what they heard from a bullhorn at a protest and typed it up.
I'm pro trans rights, pro LGBTQ, and also very much value free speech.
There is a trend on the political left right now that basically equates speech directly with violence (e.g. asking whether a man is capable of getting pregnant is violence)
>Academic content that undermines the dignity or rights of specific groups
>We commit to using this guidance cautiously and judiciously, consulting with ethics experts and advocacy groups where needed.
It seems very likely to me that this policy is going to give advocacy groups and crusaders the ability to start censoring scientific publications that disagree with what they are saying.
There is a trend on the political left right now that basically equates speech directly with violence (e.g. asking whether a man is capable of getting pregnant is violence)
>Academic content that undermines the dignity or rights of specific groups
>We commit to using this guidance cautiously and judiciously, consulting with ethics experts and advocacy groups where needed.
It seems very likely to me that this policy is going to give advocacy groups and crusaders the ability to start censoring scientific publications that disagree with what they are saying.
> There is a trend on the political left right now that basically equates speech directly with violence (e.g. asking whether a man is capable of getting pregnant is violence)
I must admit I have not seen an argument like this outside of a strawman characterization.
I must admit I have not seen an argument like this outside of a strawman characterization.
https://youtu.be/uU7nzwbJ-Hk?t=41
Here is a good example:
> "I want to recognize that your line of questioning is transphobic and opens trans people up to violence"
This is a US senator and a Berkeley law professor talking in court.
Here is a good example:
> "I want to recognize that your line of questioning is transphobic and opens trans people up to violence"
This is a US senator and a Berkeley law professor talking in court.
Let's start with this: I don't know how I can explain why this kind of discourse opens trans people up to violence if we can't first agree why this is transphobic.
Fundamentally we keep having this conversation in humanity.
"This is wrong (homophobic, transphobic, racist, classist, casteist)"
"No it isn't!"
And over and over and over again. And we look back and think how could it have been possible that we were SO discriminatory in the past, but SO enlightened now, and yet we repeat the same mistakes again.
And you have some feminists that exclude trans women. And you have some black people perpetuating homophobia.
15 years ago we were having EXACTLY the same discourse about gay marriage as we do today about trans rights.
It's exhausting how much some humans are committed to making the lives of other humans on this planet shitty. Fuck, let people live their lives. We all only get one.
Fundamentally we keep having this conversation in humanity.
"This is wrong (homophobic, transphobic, racist, classist, casteist)"
"No it isn't!"
And over and over and over again. And we look back and think how could it have been possible that we were SO discriminatory in the past, but SO enlightened now, and yet we repeat the same mistakes again.
And you have some feminists that exclude trans women. And you have some black people perpetuating homophobia.
15 years ago we were having EXACTLY the same discourse about gay marriage as we do today about trans rights.
It's exhausting how much some humans are committed to making the lives of other humans on this planet shitty. Fuck, let people live their lives. We all only get one.
> Fuck, let people live their lives. We all only get one.
I think this is greatly simplifying the concerns that people have in transitioning minors, the statistically anomalous rise in minors that identify as trans [1], and the safety of puberty blockers. For example, see the data that guided the recent Swedish health board decisions to mostly stop puberty blockers. I'm pointing out "minors", because it's all I see in serious discussions. These discussions, and even Sweden's decision, is labeled transphobic. It's trivial to find news article with the title "Sweden is killing trans people".
The word "minor" appears to be the wedge driving the trans division, where those that don't support know that minors aren't good with permanent decision, and those that do support it know that the permanent decision needs to be made as early as possible. I don't think the wedge will be removed without hard science proving safety, which natures statement can only impede.
As some evidence that 15 years ago was better for LGB than it is now for T:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dramatic_television_se...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transgender_characters...
1.
Doubled since 2017: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/10/science/transgender-teena...
5x in 13-17 vs 65 years old: https://www.losangelesblade.com/2022/06/10/study-300000-yout...
I think this is greatly simplifying the concerns that people have in transitioning minors, the statistically anomalous rise in minors that identify as trans [1], and the safety of puberty blockers. For example, see the data that guided the recent Swedish health board decisions to mostly stop puberty blockers. I'm pointing out "minors", because it's all I see in serious discussions. These discussions, and even Sweden's decision, is labeled transphobic. It's trivial to find news article with the title "Sweden is killing trans people".
The word "minor" appears to be the wedge driving the trans division, where those that don't support know that minors aren't good with permanent decision, and those that do support it know that the permanent decision needs to be made as early as possible. I don't think the wedge will be removed without hard science proving safety, which natures statement can only impede.
As some evidence that 15 years ago was better for LGB than it is now for T:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dramatic_television_se...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transgender_characters...
1.
Doubled since 2017: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/10/science/transgender-teena...
5x in 13-17 vs 65 years old: https://www.losangelesblade.com/2022/06/10/study-300000-yout...
Did you know that more people came out as left handed when the condition stopped being stigmatized? I don't share your "concerns" about there being more LGBT people in the world because they were always there; now they are just being recognized (by both rights groups and bigots who are currently focusing on them).
I don't see how left and right hand matches the fact that there are 5x more 13-17 than 65 year old identifying as trans, unless you're suggesting that gender is learned, like right handedness was, and like all those older people, who should be trans, are now comfortable the way they are.
But, I'm nobody, looking at numbers I probably don't understand. The problem here is that Nature is saying that these numbers should be considered, but potentially discarded, depending on the conclusion they make.
But, I'm nobody, looking at numbers I probably don't understand. The problem here is that Nature is saying that these numbers should be considered, but potentially discarded, depending on the conclusion they make.
Trans people are literally being murdered. Kids are kicked out of their homes for being trans. The Republican party is currently centering their platform on hatred towards trans people, blaming them for all societal woes. There are now laws being enacted that ban trans people from public places. Yet you not see how this could discourage people from coming out as trans?
[deleted]
magicalist(2)
> And you have some feminists that exclude trans women.
No "trans woman" is ever a woman. They're men, males. You're trying to take women's rights from females by denying them a way to uniquely identify themselves.
This right here is why "trans rights", as activists choose to define it, can never happen. If you can take the words woman and female, Germany could redefine Jew and China can redefine Uighur, and everyone could identify as black-descendant-of-slavery to access scholarships.
No "trans woman" is ever a woman. They're men, males. You're trying to take women's rights from females by denying them a way to uniquely identify themselves.
This right here is why "trans rights", as activists choose to define it, can never happen. If you can take the words woman and female, Germany could redefine Jew and China can redefine Uighur, and everyone could identify as black-descendant-of-slavery to access scholarships.
You're trying to take women's rights from females by denying them a way to uniquely identify themselves.
Rights are not a zero-sum game or some kind of exhaustible resource; I have no idea what you're getting at with this.
I challenge your contention that "a way to uniquely identify themselves" is a right of biological women or other groups. Never heard of any such right; it sounds totally made up.
---
The meaning of words is what all people agree on. In the US, marriage used to mean a legally recognized union between a man and a woman of the same race. Otherwise it was miscegenation, or sodomy. Then as times changed, they added a qualifier: "mixed marriage" or "mixed-race marriage". Same thing happened in the last decade with gay marriage. In both cases, it eventually just turned back into marriage again.
You disagree that trans women are women. Fine. Activists are trying to make the case that they are; that womanhood encompasses more than being biologically female, and same for manhood. A lot of people agree.
---
You say that everyone could identify as black-descendant-of-slavery to access scholarships. I say you are making a laughable category error. (Did people start marrying their dogs after Obergefell was decided? They did not.)
The reason someone identifies as something other than their birth gender isn't well-understood, but it is fair to say that hormones and the development of the brain play a significant role in the way people think and behave. Hormones have strong ties to sex and gender. They have very, very little to do with race. Category error.
If non-black people started identifying as black to claim their piece of a societal debt to the ancestors of slaves, they would be (and have been[1]) ridiculed. Most people don't try this, because the vast majority of society agrees that is not acceptable.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal
Rights are not a zero-sum game or some kind of exhaustible resource; I have no idea what you're getting at with this.
I challenge your contention that "a way to uniquely identify themselves" is a right of biological women or other groups. Never heard of any such right; it sounds totally made up.
---
The meaning of words is what all people agree on. In the US, marriage used to mean a legally recognized union between a man and a woman of the same race. Otherwise it was miscegenation, or sodomy. Then as times changed, they added a qualifier: "mixed marriage" or "mixed-race marriage". Same thing happened in the last decade with gay marriage. In both cases, it eventually just turned back into marriage again.
You disagree that trans women are women. Fine. Activists are trying to make the case that they are; that womanhood encompasses more than being biologically female, and same for manhood. A lot of people agree.
---
You say that everyone could identify as black-descendant-of-slavery to access scholarships. I say you are making a laughable category error. (Did people start marrying their dogs after Obergefell was decided? They did not.)
The reason someone identifies as something other than their birth gender isn't well-understood, but it is fair to say that hormones and the development of the brain play a significant role in the way people think and behave. Hormones have strong ties to sex and gender. They have very, very little to do with race. Category error.
If non-black people started identifying as black to claim their piece of a societal debt to the ancestors of slaves, they would be (and have been[1]) ridiculed. Most people don't try this, because the vast majority of society agrees that is not acceptable.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal
> I challenge your contention that "a way to uniquely identify themselves" is a right of biological women or other groups. Never heard of any such right; it sounds totally made up.
And yet you've heard of a right for males to claim female's sex-based rights?
> Rights are not a zero-sum game or some kind of exhaustible resource;
Actually they are. Women have a right to sex-segregated spaces for example, and that doesn't work if they can't claim exclusive use of sex-based identifiers. Women can't have exclusively-women's prisons if men can call themselves women.
> You disagree that trans women are women. Fine. Activists are trying to make the case that they are; that womanhood encompasses more than being biologically female, and same for manhood. A lot of people agree.
You can volunteer to share your spaces however you like, but you can't make that decision for others no matter how many people you claim agree.
Also, you're being disingenuous. Transwomen claim to be female these days - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Levine - which is clearly untrue even to people who might believe in gender identities.
> You say that everyone could identify as black-descendant-of-slavery to access scholarships. I say you are making a laughable category error.
But then you reference Rachel, who did exactly that. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal
Thanks to the modern intentional acceptance of appropriation and colonization other Dolezals aren't being rejected, leading some to simultaneously claim racial and sexual benefits belonging to others. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwen_Benaway
And yet you've heard of a right for males to claim female's sex-based rights?
> Rights are not a zero-sum game or some kind of exhaustible resource;
Actually they are. Women have a right to sex-segregated spaces for example, and that doesn't work if they can't claim exclusive use of sex-based identifiers. Women can't have exclusively-women's prisons if men can call themselves women.
> You disagree that trans women are women. Fine. Activists are trying to make the case that they are; that womanhood encompasses more than being biologically female, and same for manhood. A lot of people agree.
You can volunteer to share your spaces however you like, but you can't make that decision for others no matter how many people you claim agree.
Also, you're being disingenuous. Transwomen claim to be female these days - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Levine - which is clearly untrue even to people who might believe in gender identities.
> You say that everyone could identify as black-descendant-of-slavery to access scholarships. I say you are making a laughable category error.
But then you reference Rachel, who did exactly that. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal
Thanks to the modern intentional acceptance of appropriation and colonization other Dolezals aren't being rejected, leading some to simultaneously claim racial and sexual benefits belonging to others. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwen_Benaway
> I challenge your contention that "a way to uniquely identify themselves" is a right of biological women or other groups. Never heard of any such right; it sounds totally made up.
See, for example, the Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination Against Women and the United Nations Rules for the Treatment of Women Prisoners and Non-custodial Measures for Women Offenders. Both entirely meaningless if men can self-identify as women.
See, for example, the Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination Against Women and the United Nations Rules for the Treatment of Women Prisoners and Non-custodial Measures for Women Offenders. Both entirely meaningless if men can self-identify as women.
She didn't say the words were themselves violence, which was the original claim. She said that transphobia opens trans people to violence. Those are different things.
That's not making the claim that the line of questioning is itself violence. It's making the claim that a consequence of the line of questioning is going to be violence against trans people (in an unspecified time and place).
I don't know the context, or how sane the claim is. But I don't think it's an example of what GP said.
I don't know the context, or how sane the claim is. But I don't think it's an example of what GP said.
But making it known that the line of questioning will bring violence to others is implying that if the person continues the line of questioning, they are then knowingly and intentionally bringing violence to trans people. In a lot of legal systems and with informal norms, if you know your action will cause harm to others, and you do it anyway, you are considered a cause of the harm.
Claims that an action can cause violence are ultimately claims that the action causes violence.
Claims that an action can cause violence are ultimately claims that the action causes violence.
There is a quality of leftish ideas and initiatives that people find discomfiting, even those with liberal values like myself.
"Speech is violence" is an over-simplification of this quality. It is easy to dismiss in its sensationalism, and its lack of prominent examples.
It's a special case of the real insidiousness - what you should really be looking for when people say things that don't sound right to you:
"Speech is violence" means that by expressing opinions that are critical of X (or arguments for policy that protects X), you are making it more likely that bad actors will commit violence against X.
"Speech is violence" is an over-simplification of this quality. It is easy to dismiss in its sensationalism, and its lack of prominent examples.
It's a special case of the real insidiousness - what you should really be looking for when people say things that don't sound right to you:
You are not only responsible for what you do and say, but for what anyone chooses to do or say as a result, at *any* time.
"Speech is violence" means that by expressing opinions that are critical of X (or arguments for policy that protects X), you are making it more likely that bad actors will commit violence against X.
From a non-legal perspective, aren’t we all responsible for what people do in reaction to our speech, if we reasonably knew the outcome of our speech at the time?
The alternative is that we allow stochastic terrorism, where figures know statistically that if they keep denigrating a person long enough some unhinged person will take action. And legally we do allow this, as it isn’t incitement. But are we required to ignore the obvious reality in front of our eyes and not call the stochastic terrorists out on it?
Anyone talking about a Final Solution in 1938 was complicit in the violence, full stop. They knew or should have known what their speech enabled. The same with Rwanda and even now with Russia - every genocide has always been accompanied by a large group of people not explicitly engaged in violence but speaking that it wouldn’t be so bad if something maybe happened to this group. Non-inciting speech like that by enough people creates genocide.
The alternative is that we allow stochastic terrorism, where figures know statistically that if they keep denigrating a person long enough some unhinged person will take action. And legally we do allow this, as it isn’t incitement. But are we required to ignore the obvious reality in front of our eyes and not call the stochastic terrorists out on it?
Anyone talking about a Final Solution in 1938 was complicit in the violence, full stop. They knew or should have known what their speech enabled. The same with Rwanda and even now with Russia - every genocide has always been accompanied by a large group of people not explicitly engaged in violence but speaking that it wouldn’t be so bad if something maybe happened to this group. Non-inciting speech like that by enough people creates genocide.
From a non-legal perspective, aren’t we all responsible for what people do in reaction to our speech, if we reasonably knew the outcome of our speech at the time?
Yep, I don't disagree with that in the slightest.
---
figures know statistically that if they keep denigrating a person long enough some unhinged person will take action
Guessing by "figures" you mean public figures, or otherwise someone with a platform. Yeah, absolutely there's a "who will rid me of this meddlesome priest" dynamic that's troublesome, and I believe anyone who uses their platform to do this is deeply unethical and irresponsible.
---
Anyone talking about a Final Solution in 1938 was complicit in the violence
The same with Rwanda and even now with Russia
"it wouldn’t be so bad if something maybe happened to this group"
These are all examples of speech that advocates for or suggests there is value in violence, genocidal or otherwise. If the people who claim speech is violence are referring exclusively to speech like this, I would have to agree with them.
But that's not the full scope of what some people mean. Some people include in their definition unpleasant speech, speech that offends, shocks or otherwise stands in opposition to their strongly held beliefs.
---
Here's a couple of representative examples from a set of op-eds[1] justifying violent protest against a speech by Milo Yiannopolous at Berkeley in 2017:
"the ideology they peddle perpetuates ideas that urgently endanger members of our community"
(Given the subject of the protest, the ideas here are presumably about the rights of trans people and undocumented immigrants)
How do ideas endanger people, let alone urgently? Obviously we are excepting the direct advocation of violence, which I addressed above.
Say someone publicly announces their opposition to (for instance) DACA on the grounds of their belief that it will cause more illegal immigration, which they oppose. Someone hears this statement and is inspired to commit a violent act against a person of color. What (non-legal) responsibility does the speaker have for this?
I posit, and am curious whether you agree that in the general case, advocating for or against a particular law or policy is not and cannot be violence.
"asking people to maintain peaceful dialogue with those who legitimately do not think their lives matter is a violent act"
I find this a particularly distasteful example of semantic gymnastics, and one that seeks to use the concept of speech-as-violence to justify actual violence against the speaker or related entities.
"[A]sking people to maintain peaceful dialogue" is an evasive way of saying "requiring that people are not violent". "[People] who legitimately do not think their lives matter" are presumably people that deserve violence for having the wrong opinion and sharing it.
Granted: Milo Yiannopolous has frequently skirted the line you and I agree on, naming undocumented immigrants, outing trans people, etc. This is unacceptable behavior and an obvious example of the "meddlesome priest" dynamic.
BUT - the quoted author cares little for the specific context of Yiannopolous' past actions, making a sweeping statement that is unquestionably intended to draw a rhetorical line in the sand on what generally constitutes violence. Not sure about you, but I find this hypocritical, counter-productive in the extreme, and yeah, kinda evil.
[1]: https://www.dailycal.org/2017/02/07/violence-self-defense/
Yep, I don't disagree with that in the slightest.
---
figures know statistically that if they keep denigrating a person long enough some unhinged person will take action
Guessing by "figures" you mean public figures, or otherwise someone with a platform. Yeah, absolutely there's a "who will rid me of this meddlesome priest" dynamic that's troublesome, and I believe anyone who uses their platform to do this is deeply unethical and irresponsible.
---
Anyone talking about a Final Solution in 1938 was complicit in the violence
The same with Rwanda and even now with Russia
"it wouldn’t be so bad if something maybe happened to this group"
These are all examples of speech that advocates for or suggests there is value in violence, genocidal or otherwise. If the people who claim speech is violence are referring exclusively to speech like this, I would have to agree with them.
But that's not the full scope of what some people mean. Some people include in their definition unpleasant speech, speech that offends, shocks or otherwise stands in opposition to their strongly held beliefs.
---
Here's a couple of representative examples from a set of op-eds[1] justifying violent protest against a speech by Milo Yiannopolous at Berkeley in 2017:
"the ideology they peddle perpetuates ideas that urgently endanger members of our community"
(Given the subject of the protest, the ideas here are presumably about the rights of trans people and undocumented immigrants)
How do ideas endanger people, let alone urgently? Obviously we are excepting the direct advocation of violence, which I addressed above.
Say someone publicly announces their opposition to (for instance) DACA on the grounds of their belief that it will cause more illegal immigration, which they oppose. Someone hears this statement and is inspired to commit a violent act against a person of color. What (non-legal) responsibility does the speaker have for this?
I posit, and am curious whether you agree that in the general case, advocating for or against a particular law or policy is not and cannot be violence.
"asking people to maintain peaceful dialogue with those who legitimately do not think their lives matter is a violent act"
I find this a particularly distasteful example of semantic gymnastics, and one that seeks to use the concept of speech-as-violence to justify actual violence against the speaker or related entities.
"[A]sking people to maintain peaceful dialogue" is an evasive way of saying "requiring that people are not violent". "[People] who legitimately do not think their lives matter" are presumably people that deserve violence for having the wrong opinion and sharing it.
Granted: Milo Yiannopolous has frequently skirted the line you and I agree on, naming undocumented immigrants, outing trans people, etc. This is unacceptable behavior and an obvious example of the "meddlesome priest" dynamic.
BUT - the quoted author cares little for the specific context of Yiannopolous' past actions, making a sweeping statement that is unquestionably intended to draw a rhetorical line in the sand on what generally constitutes violence. Not sure about you, but I find this hypocritical, counter-productive in the extreme, and yeah, kinda evil.
[1]: https://www.dailycal.org/2017/02/07/violence-self-defense/
I have been directly told this several times. In one case, in an awareness presentation at a large tech company.
I suspect many of us have had this experience.
I suspect many of us have had this experience.
Perhaps you hadn't yet encountered the subject of Epistemic Violence, in that case:
“I have thus defined epistemic violence as a forced delegitimation, sanctioning and repression […] of certain possibilities of knowing, going hand in hand with an attempted enforcement […] of other possibilities of knowing.”
Sebastian Garbe 2013
https://epistemicviolence.aau.at/index.php/en/home-2/
https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-epistemic-violence/
“I have thus defined epistemic violence as a forced delegitimation, sanctioning and repression […] of certain possibilities of knowing, going hand in hand with an attempted enforcement […] of other possibilities of knowing.”
Sebastian Garbe 2013
https://epistemicviolence.aau.at/index.php/en/home-2/
https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-epistemic-violence/
In fact, there were even claims during the 2020 riots that "White silence is violence." See e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSVUrvnJFXs. That's right, even _not_ saying anything at all (including not parroting the expected slogans) is a direct act of violence.
This is not the same thing.
If you know the kid next door is being abused - and you do nothing about it, you are partially at fault for the violence happening to the kid. If you do something (call child services, for example) and it fails, you tried, and should try again lest you fall in the same trap.
It is similar with police violence and racism. If you sit idly by and don't demand change, despite knowing people are getting beaten and things like that, you are partially responsible.
I'm pretty sure the same thing happens with other things too: You knew someone was taking money from the company yet did nothing, you are at risk of getting in trouble too. It isn't a concept that exist in only one arena.
If you know the kid next door is being abused - and you do nothing about it, you are partially at fault for the violence happening to the kid. If you do something (call child services, for example) and it fails, you tried, and should try again lest you fall in the same trap.
It is similar with police violence and racism. If you sit idly by and don't demand change, despite knowing people are getting beaten and things like that, you are partially responsible.
I'm pretty sure the same thing happens with other things too: You knew someone was taking money from the company yet did nothing, you are at risk of getting in trouble too. It isn't a concept that exist in only one arena.
Yes, but see what you did there? You're comparing an individual case where you have personal information to a general vibe promoted by the media.
The general public has been led to believe that thousands of unarmed black men are killed by the police every year. In reality it's around 20. [1][2]
Saying that "silence is violence" coupled with misleading information is a means of manipulating people.
I prefer the old fashioned "sicks and stones, ...", "due process", "innocent until proven guilty", ...
[1]: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/07/03/police-blac... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unarmed_African_Americ...
The general public has been led to believe that thousands of unarmed black men are killed by the police every year. In reality it's around 20. [1][2]
Saying that "silence is violence" coupled with misleading information is a means of manipulating people.
I prefer the old fashioned "sicks and stones, ...", "due process", "innocent until proven guilty", ...
[1]: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/07/03/police-blac... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unarmed_African_Americ...
You're missing the point. You DO have personal information that you can do things with in your daily life.
A simple example: challenging racist or sexist jokes from your friends.
A simple example: challenging racist or sexist jokes from your friends.
What about yo momma jokes?
> If you know the kid next door is being abused - and you do nothing about it, you are partially at fault for the violence happening to the kid.
You're doing something bad in this hypothetical scenario, but it's not violence. Maybe it's "accessory to violence" or "willful ignorance" or some other immoral or illegal thing that you should be jailed for, but it's not literally "violence". Blurring this distinction is dangerous; people will start using actual violence against figurative "violence" in a kind of aggressive "self-defense".
You're doing something bad in this hypothetical scenario, but it's not violence. Maybe it's "accessory to violence" or "willful ignorance" or some other immoral or illegal thing that you should be jailed for, but it's not literally "violence". Blurring this distinction is dangerous; people will start using actual violence against figurative "violence" in a kind of aggressive "self-defense".
The obvious, yet clearly heartless way question to ask is, why should you care? In the first example, the kid is not yours.
A failed intervention may carry the risk of violence being used against you as revenge. If you’re unfortunate, the police may refuse normal interaction if you later need it (say, because they found no evidence, or if they for some reason ignore domestic violence as a rule of thumb). You’re sticking your head out for someone who you don’t even know.
Even assuming that there are reasons to help that particular person, why is there suddenly a burden on me to do or say something? Doing or saying nothing will of course mean that I’m an an asshole, sociopath, or <insert derogatory term >, but that still shouldn’t compel me to do or say anything. Compelled action and speech aren’t compatible with personal freedoms, or so I gather from the current consensus - so why is there suddenly a pressure to act?
A failed intervention may carry the risk of violence being used against you as revenge. If you’re unfortunate, the police may refuse normal interaction if you later need it (say, because they found no evidence, or if they for some reason ignore domestic violence as a rule of thumb). You’re sticking your head out for someone who you don’t even know.
Even assuming that there are reasons to help that particular person, why is there suddenly a burden on me to do or say something? Doing or saying nothing will of course mean that I’m an an asshole, sociopath, or <insert derogatory term >, but that still shouldn’t compel me to do or say anything. Compelled action and speech aren’t compatible with personal freedoms, or so I gather from the current consensus - so why is there suddenly a pressure to act?
"The obvious, yet clearly heartless way question to ask is, why should you care? In the first example, the kid is not yours."
I'm sorry, are you really asking why I wouldn't care about others in general? In some cases, it doesn't matter if I know them.
I'm sorry, are you really asking why I wouldn't care about others in general? In some cases, it doesn't matter if I know them.
I see it more as an acknowledgement that, in the midst of a propaganda war (which the entire world is now engaged in 24/7, thanks to the internet), the information you put out into the world may have strategic value to individuals or groups whose goals are contrary to the good of the human race. When true things are used to justify horrific actions, it's particularly difficult to prevent because that truth lends serious credibility to the supposed rationality of the horrors being enacted. Superficially-rational evil is the most destructive force in the world specifically because it's built on a foundation of carefully-selected truths.
That doesn't mean the truth should die or we should hide from true things. But it's impossible to avoid the amoral power of true things, and pretending "just telling the truth" won't or can't lead to horrific outcomes is a level of naiveté intelligent people can't afford to have in an era when political and civil violence is back in the Overton window throughout the world.
That doesn't mean the truth should die or we should hide from true things. But it's impossible to avoid the amoral power of true things, and pretending "just telling the truth" won't or can't lead to horrific outcomes is a level of naiveté intelligent people can't afford to have in an era when political and civil violence is back in the Overton window throughout the world.
> individuals or groups whose goals are contrary to the good of the human race
These types of exaggerations are part of the problem.
It would be fine if by that you meant supporters of totalitarian regimes, but I often hear this type of language from people who think that using pronouns in the conventional way is genocide.
These types of exaggerations are part of the problem.
It would be fine if by that you meant supporters of totalitarian regimes, but I often hear this type of language from people who think that using pronouns in the conventional way is genocide.
> I often hear this type of language from people who think that using pronouns in the conventional way is genocide.
> These types of exaggerations are part of the problem.
Physician, heal thyself. That me mentioning evil in this context brings to mind lefty drivel says more about the information you choose to consume than anything else.
> These types of exaggerations are part of the problem.
Physician, heal thyself. That me mentioning evil in this context brings to mind lefty drivel says more about the information you choose to consume than anything else.
Which human race?
The Spanish conquest of the Aztecs was both a genocide against the Aztecs and a war of liberation by every other tribe which was used as human cattle for sacrifices by the Aztecs.
The Spanish conquest of the Aztecs was both a genocide against the Aztecs and a war of liberation by every other tribe which was used as human cattle for sacrifices by the Aztecs.
There is a trend on the political left right now that basically equates speech directly with violence (e.g. asking whether a man is capable of getting pregnant is violence)
No doubt because they wanted to be "inclusive" of such opinions.
I am reminded of this old warning: "Have an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out."
No doubt because they wanted to be "inclusive" of such opinions.
I am reminded of this old warning: "Have an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out."
This has garnered quite a lot of reactions from the comments. I'd like to ask a genuine question about this, from the perspective of assuming that Nature is acting in good faith about this.
Let's say someone has calculated the polygenic scores (PGS) of Heteronormativity, meaning that a model, can predict with a decent level of accuracy that someone will or will not be straight from their DNA.
This, in an ideal world, would be good knowledge to have. You can raise you child knowing and accepting this reality.
In the world we live in, this would be used to abort babies that don't pass the PGS to the vast majority of people who have this information.
So, in this case, where we have an oppressed group that can be oppressed further, is knowledge better than ignorance? It seems that many in the comments would say yes, and that the pursuit of knowledge is the clear winner, and anything else is merely the price of progress. Which I might ask, you would say the same thing if you were gay?
I want to make one thing clear, this is not a silly thought experiment. This is very possible right now with the advent of biobanks, GWAS tooling, and machine learning. Nature is thinking about these things when writing that up.
I presume that most of you would agree that releasing this information for anyone to know would have negative consequences, and should maybe be controlled. So, then, you fundamentally agree with Nature's stance, do you not? We're merely talking about where the line of publishing exists, not if one should exist at all? Are you not being a bit overzealous with your declarations of orthodoxy?
Let's say someone has calculated the polygenic scores (PGS) of Heteronormativity, meaning that a model, can predict with a decent level of accuracy that someone will or will not be straight from their DNA.
This, in an ideal world, would be good knowledge to have. You can raise you child knowing and accepting this reality.
In the world we live in, this would be used to abort babies that don't pass the PGS to the vast majority of people who have this information.
So, in this case, where we have an oppressed group that can be oppressed further, is knowledge better than ignorance? It seems that many in the comments would say yes, and that the pursuit of knowledge is the clear winner, and anything else is merely the price of progress. Which I might ask, you would say the same thing if you were gay?
I want to make one thing clear, this is not a silly thought experiment. This is very possible right now with the advent of biobanks, GWAS tooling, and machine learning. Nature is thinking about these things when writing that up.
I presume that most of you would agree that releasing this information for anyone to know would have negative consequences, and should maybe be controlled. So, then, you fundamentally agree with Nature's stance, do you not? We're merely talking about where the line of publishing exists, not if one should exist at all? Are you not being a bit overzealous with your declarations of orthodoxy?
I never understood this perspective, that aborting fetuses whose prospects are guaranteed to be worse, is somehow wrong or even oppression, and somehow oppression of a whole group of other people completely unrelated to the family.
If me and my wife are planning a baby, that's between us. There is no outside group that has a say or is somehow being oppressed when we decide that we do not want a child who is going to suffer more than necessary due to being dealt the wrong cards.
>I presume that most of you would agree that releasing this information for anyone to know would have negative consequences, and should maybe be controlled.
No. What? Are you insane? If you knew that a couple were going to have a baby with whatever problems, and you did not inform them of this because in your mind, their decision might then somehow upset some other group of people who are neither the mother, nor the father, nor even the close family, then I would find that morally unacceptable.
EDIT: Although I disagree with your choice of example, I would also like to say, that I do think that there ethics is important in any profession, including in scientific research and publication.
EDIT 2: I think your reasoning and people who think like you comes from this (very American notion) of thinking that being homosexual or being deaf or being mute somehow makes you part of a "community". And then from this comes this idea of oppression when the community is deprived of one of their new prospective members. I find this whole thinking absurd.
>I presume that most of you would agree that releasing this information for anyone to know would have negative consequences, and should maybe be controlled.
No. What? Are you insane? If you knew that a couple were going to have a baby with whatever problems, and you did not inform them of this because in your mind, their decision might then somehow upset some other group of people who are neither the mother, nor the father, nor even the close family, then I would find that morally unacceptable.
EDIT: Although I disagree with your choice of example, I would also like to say, that I do think that there ethics is important in any profession, including in scientific research and publication.
EDIT 2: I think your reasoning and people who think like you comes from this (very American notion) of thinking that being homosexual or being deaf or being mute somehow makes you part of a "community". And then from this comes this idea of oppression when the community is deprived of one of their new prospective members. I find this whole thinking absurd.
There is one very common case where people abort fetuses because of reasons that are not "saving the child from worse prospects". This is people not wanting girls because "girls are economic and social liabilities and boys are assets". In my country, sex-selective abortion has been so prevalent that doctors now don't tell parents the sex of the fetus. If they did, very quickly would there be a difference of millions between males and females in the population with all the social problems that brings about.
If somehow tomorrow, some research project resulted in a very cheap device, usable by anyone, that could tell the sex of a baby, I think one would have to at least seriously debate and ponder whether publishing such work is good for the country or not.
If somehow tomorrow, some research project resulted in a very cheap device, usable by anyone, that could tell the sex of a baby, I think one would have to at least seriously debate and ponder whether publishing such work is good for the country or not.
The more western equivalent of this is screening for Down's Syndrome.
In certain countries, essentially all Down's babies are aborted. (98% in Denmark, for example)
In certain countries, essentially all Down's babies are aborted. (98% in Denmark, for example)
I don’t know if you have relatives or children with Down’s, but it is no walk in the park.
Forcing parents to have disabled kids is not good policy either.
Forcing parents to have disabled kids is not good policy either.
>all Down's babies are aborted. (98% in Denmark
98% of all babies with Down's syndrome, or 98% of all babies diagnosed with it? How popular is the test in Denmark?
98% of all babies with Down's syndrome, or 98% of all babies diagnosed with it? How popular is the test in Denmark?
The test is required by the govt.
> I think your reasoning and people who think like you comes from this (very American notion) of thinking that being homosexual or being deaf or being mute somehow makes you part of a "community". And then from this comes this idea of oppression when the community is deprived of one of their new prospective members. I find this whole thinking absurd.
Thank you for putting this into words. I share the same perspective but never articulated it so elegantly. You made my evening.
Thank you for putting this into words. I share the same perspective but never articulated it so elegantly. You made my evening.
> There is no outside group that has a say or is somehow being oppressed when we decide that we do not want a child
I guess you're counting the child him/herself as an "outside group" in this process too.
I guess you're counting the child him/herself as an "outside group" in this process too.
Those who are pro choice tend to not care so much about the interests of the fetus. Interestingly, I suspect that same group might be inclined to see abortion due to the likely sexual orientation of the child as so sinful that it should be reason for denying the abortion...
> If you knew that a couple were going to have a baby with whatever problems, and you did not inform them of this because in your mind, their decision might then somehow upset some other group of people who are neither the mother, nor the father, nor even the close family, then I would find that morally unacceptable.
In addition to the question of morality and autonomy, I think it's also worth considering the practical second-order effects we are likely to see once this kind of libertarian eugenics inevitably becomes easier. Industries like engineering and math will change once parents can avoid having children on the spectrum. Not to mention theater and fashion when parents can choose to have only heterosexual children.
Reminds me of the message at the end of Gattaca.
The biggest real-world example of societal change is probably the sex-selective abortion someone else mentioned which results in an excess of males in several regions of the world. A gender imbalance where males outnumber females by a significant margin seems to result in societal instability so it's not surprising governments work so hard to crack down on it.
In addition to the question of morality and autonomy, I think it's also worth considering the practical second-order effects we are likely to see once this kind of libertarian eugenics inevitably becomes easier. Industries like engineering and math will change once parents can avoid having children on the spectrum. Not to mention theater and fashion when parents can choose to have only heterosexual children.
Reminds me of the message at the end of Gattaca.
The biggest real-world example of societal change is probably the sex-selective abortion someone else mentioned which results in an excess of males in several regions of the world. A gender imbalance where males outnumber females by a significant margin seems to result in societal instability so it's not surprising governments work so hard to crack down on it.
>In the world we live in, this would be used to abort babies that don't pass the PGS to the vast majority of people who have this information.
Are you sure about that? We have a pretty good way of predicting the sex of the fetus and somehow our misogynistic and sexist society doesn't have a mass problem of aborting females.
>So, in this case, where we have an oppressed group that can be oppressed further, is knowledge better than ignorance?
Abortion is oppression?
Today, in most regions, you can abort a fetus for any reason ... even terrible reasons. Are you advocating for abortion controls so that abortion is only done for the 'right' reasons?
>I want to make one thing clear, this is not a silly thought experiment. This is very possible right now with the advent of biobanks, GWAS tooling, and machine learning.
If it is possible today, where are those mass abortions?
>I presume that most of you would agree that releasing this information for anyone to know would have negative consequences, and should maybe be controlled.
You assume you can hide this information. Why do you assume that?
And no, I don't agree that it should be controlled.
Are you sure about that? We have a pretty good way of predicting the sex of the fetus and somehow our misogynistic and sexist society doesn't have a mass problem of aborting females.
>So, in this case, where we have an oppressed group that can be oppressed further, is knowledge better than ignorance?
Abortion is oppression?
Today, in most regions, you can abort a fetus for any reason ... even terrible reasons. Are you advocating for abortion controls so that abortion is only done for the 'right' reasons?
>I want to make one thing clear, this is not a silly thought experiment. This is very possible right now with the advent of biobanks, GWAS tooling, and machine learning.
If it is possible today, where are those mass abortions?
>I presume that most of you would agree that releasing this information for anyone to know would have negative consequences, and should maybe be controlled.
You assume you can hide this information. Why do you assume that?
And no, I don't agree that it should be controlled.
> We have a pretty good way of predicting the sex of the fetus and somehow our misogynistic and sexist society doesn't have a mass problem of aborting females.
But we do...
> The natural sex ratio at birth is approximately 103 to 106 males for 100 females.[37][38] However, because of sex-selective abortions, the sex ratio at birth in countries with high proportions of missing women have ranged 108.5 in India to 121.2 in Mainland China.[6][18] As a result, counts of missing women are often due to missing female children.[18] It is estimated that the cumulative number of missing female births due to sex-selective abortion globally is 45 million from 1970 to 2017.[38]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_women
But we do...
> The natural sex ratio at birth is approximately 103 to 106 males for 100 females.[37][38] However, because of sex-selective abortions, the sex ratio at birth in countries with high proportions of missing women have ranged 108.5 in India to 121.2 in Mainland China.[6][18] As a result, counts of missing women are often due to missing female children.[18] It is estimated that the cumulative number of missing female births due to sex-selective abortion globally is 45 million from 1970 to 2017.[38]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_women
>But we do..
Who is 'we' here? USA? Canada?
Who is 'we' here? USA? Canada?
> >In the world we live in, this would be used to abort babies that don't pass the PGS to the vast majority of people who have this information.
Same "we" as the line you responded to, and your own response.
Same "we" as the line you responded to, and your own response.
>Same "we" as the line you responded to, and your own response
Is it the same? If China has a problem with abortion of female fetuses and I said "we" don't have that problem...does it sound like the same "we"?
Is it the same? If China has a problem with abortion of female fetuses and I said "we" don't have that problem...does it sound like the same "we"?
> >In the world we live in, this would be used to abort babies that don't pass the PGS to the vast majority of people who have this information.
> Are you sure about that?
So you asked this question to someone who said "In the world we live in", you actually meant "Are you sure that this thing that does happen in the world we live in will also happen in some unspecified nation that I live in".
I don't think that's what you were asking, but if you where, why would you ask that?
> Are you sure about that?
So you asked this question to someone who said "In the world we live in", you actually meant "Are you sure that this thing that does happen in the world we live in will also happen in some unspecified nation that I live in".
I don't think that's what you were asking, but if you where, why would you ask that?
you said "If it is possible today, where are those mass abortions?" and he gave you the answer, notably China, the largest country in the world.
So now you're saying you actually meant just North America?
So now you're saying you actually meant just North America?
>So now you're saying you actually meant just North America
I said "our society" isn't performing abortions on female fetuses - so clearly I must have meant China and India - the two societies that are?
And yes, I want to know why "our society" isn't.
I said "our society" isn't performing abortions on female fetuses - so clearly I must have meant China and India - the two societies that are?
And yes, I want to know why "our society" isn't.
OK, well, I guess you're right that "our society" does not value boys over girls as much as China and India. I don't really see the relevance if you're arguing "no, sex-selective abortions will not happen."
>I don't really see the relevance if you're arguing "no, sex-selective abortions will not happen."
OP argued that there will be abortions based on sexual orientation as a justification for hiding research results from the public. As one of my counter-arguments, I argued that this isn't inevitable by providing a counter-example of lack of sex-selective abortions in most of the world (specifically the society I grew up in).
OP argued that there will be abortions based on sexual orientation as a justification for hiding research results from the public. As one of my counter-arguments, I argued that this isn't inevitable by providing a counter-example of lack of sex-selective abortions in most of the world (specifically the society I grew up in).
Obviously not. In those countries it's the male fetuses that are more likely to be aborted.
> In the world we live in, this would be used to abort babies that don't pass the PGS to the vast majority of people who have this information.
If you think that aborting babies, in general, is not immoral, then I, personally, don't see this as a problem.
Let's try a different thought experiment:
If you were doing IVF because you wanted one child. And you had two embryos. So you knew you would discard one. And you found out one of the embryos was going to be born blind. Which would you discard?
Most people (I think) would discard the to-be-blind one. You could argue that that is ableist. But another way to think of it is: you had a choice to decide if your child can see. You chose to give them sight.
If you think that aborting babies, in general, is not immoral, then I, personally, don't see this as a problem.
Let's try a different thought experiment:
If you were doing IVF because you wanted one child. And you had two embryos. So you knew you would discard one. And you found out one of the embryos was going to be born blind. Which would you discard?
Most people (I think) would discard the to-be-blind one. You could argue that that is ableist. But another way to think of it is: you had a choice to decide if your child can see. You chose to give them sight.
> But another way to think of it is: you had a choice to decide if your child can see. You chose to give them sight.
Yet another way to think of it is: you had a choice to decide whether your blind child should live. You chose that they should die.
Your desire to only want one child in this circumstance is not free of ethical implications.
Yet another way to think of it is: you had a choice to decide whether your blind child should live. You chose that they should die.
Your desire to only want one child in this circumstance is not free of ethical implications.
Of course. My first sentence was a disclaimer saying it only makes sense if you don’t think abortion is immoral. (I don’t think it is immoral.)
In this scenario the "oppressed" group could only be "oppressed further" if you assume the position that abortion is killing a person, otherwise you wouldn't be able to call it a further oppression since nobody came into existence to be oppressed. I don't see how, if you assume the common pro-choice paradigm which usually coincides with the views you express, this could be considered wrong.
Is this a real opinion? My god.
Thinking that aborting female embryos because they will be considered less important in society is wrong, AND think that removing a women's right to choose entirely based on religious teachings is wrong, AND thinking that forced sterilization of a whole cultural/ethnic group is wrong, are not incompatible.
Where are you getting these opinions from? I'd honestly have a hard look at where you got these thoughts from, they are pretty backwards, and not morally considered at all.
Thinking that aborting female embryos because they will be considered less important in society is wrong, AND think that removing a women's right to choose entirely based on religious teachings is wrong, AND thinking that forced sterilization of a whole cultural/ethnic group is wrong, are not incompatible.
Where are you getting these opinions from? I'd honestly have a hard look at where you got these thoughts from, they are pretty backwards, and not morally considered at all.
I appreciate the question you posed in your original post.
I'd challenge you to engage with GP rather than deriding them. Your comment comes off as a selfish display of moral superiority that shuts down discussion and serves to further polarize. GP pointed out a perceived logical inconsistency in moral reasoning, by definition this is morally considered. I don't think they're acting in bad faith, and while a more inquisitive tone on their part may have avoided heated responses, I don't think GP's line of thought is beyond the pale. I hope we can try to follow where those opinions come from rather than talking past each other.
> Thinking that aborting female embryos because they will be considered less important in society is wrong, AND think that removing a women's right to choose entirely based on religious teachings is wrong, AND thinking that forced sterilization of a whole cultural/ethnic group is wrong, are not incompatible.
You assert this as if it is inherently true, which isn't going to do anything against a logical challenge. There is a widely-held line of reasoning that your first two statements contradict.
In the pro-choice position that women have a positive right to abortion, many people in attempting to understand that position interpret the moral grounds for it to be that the fetus is not a person - it does not have a right to life, therefore terminating its life is moral. That interpretation of the moral justification doesn't come from nowhere, I've heard it in person from people arguing in good faith. Your original post suggests that disseminating information that could cause more women to elect for abortion is morally wrong because it harms marginalized groups. This undermines the moral grounds for abortion as the individual negative right to life is widely held to be the most basic of rights, to be universal to persons, and so if the fetus is to be considered a member of a marginalized group, working backwards it must necessarily be a person and necessarily have the right to life. Therefore it is illogical considering only these three factors to hold all simultaneously: (i) a fetus does not have a negative right to life, (ii) a woman has a positive right to abortion, (iii) a fetus can be a member of a marginalized group of persons, as (iii) contradicts (i), leaving (ii) unjustified.
That line of reasoning is consistent. It flows forwards from individuality, that group rights are derived from individual rights, the personal right to life, and that personhood is a necessary condition for membership in a group of persons. It hinges on the assumption that the moral justification for abortion is that a fetus is not a person, and does not have a right to life.
One legitimate rebuttal to GPs probe, and defense for your 3 assertions, is that there is an alternative moral justification for the pro choice position. It's not that a fetus does not have a right to life, but that a woman's rights to bodily autonomy and self-determination, or some other factors, supersede the fetus' right to life. There are more, but "your thoughts are backwards" isn't one of them. That's exactly the imposition of dogma that other commenters are fretting over.
I'd be curious to hear your opinion on the recent case of a pregnant woman in Texas pulled over in the HOV lane who argued that due to the state's legislation limiting abortion, the fetus inside her should qualify as a person and so she is justified in driving there.
EDIT: typo
I'd challenge you to engage with GP rather than deriding them. Your comment comes off as a selfish display of moral superiority that shuts down discussion and serves to further polarize. GP pointed out a perceived logical inconsistency in moral reasoning, by definition this is morally considered. I don't think they're acting in bad faith, and while a more inquisitive tone on their part may have avoided heated responses, I don't think GP's line of thought is beyond the pale. I hope we can try to follow where those opinions come from rather than talking past each other.
> Thinking that aborting female embryos because they will be considered less important in society is wrong, AND think that removing a women's right to choose entirely based on religious teachings is wrong, AND thinking that forced sterilization of a whole cultural/ethnic group is wrong, are not incompatible.
You assert this as if it is inherently true, which isn't going to do anything against a logical challenge. There is a widely-held line of reasoning that your first two statements contradict.
In the pro-choice position that women have a positive right to abortion, many people in attempting to understand that position interpret the moral grounds for it to be that the fetus is not a person - it does not have a right to life, therefore terminating its life is moral. That interpretation of the moral justification doesn't come from nowhere, I've heard it in person from people arguing in good faith. Your original post suggests that disseminating information that could cause more women to elect for abortion is morally wrong because it harms marginalized groups. This undermines the moral grounds for abortion as the individual negative right to life is widely held to be the most basic of rights, to be universal to persons, and so if the fetus is to be considered a member of a marginalized group, working backwards it must necessarily be a person and necessarily have the right to life. Therefore it is illogical considering only these three factors to hold all simultaneously: (i) a fetus does not have a negative right to life, (ii) a woman has a positive right to abortion, (iii) a fetus can be a member of a marginalized group of persons, as (iii) contradicts (i), leaving (ii) unjustified.
That line of reasoning is consistent. It flows forwards from individuality, that group rights are derived from individual rights, the personal right to life, and that personhood is a necessary condition for membership in a group of persons. It hinges on the assumption that the moral justification for abortion is that a fetus is not a person, and does not have a right to life.
One legitimate rebuttal to GPs probe, and defense for your 3 assertions, is that there is an alternative moral justification for the pro choice position. It's not that a fetus does not have a right to life, but that a woman's rights to bodily autonomy and self-determination, or some other factors, supersede the fetus' right to life. There are more, but "your thoughts are backwards" isn't one of them. That's exactly the imposition of dogma that other commenters are fretting over.
I'd be curious to hear your opinion on the recent case of a pregnant woman in Texas pulled over in the HOV lane who argued that due to the state's legislation limiting abortion, the fetus inside her should qualify as a person and so she is justified in driving there.
EDIT: typo
> from the perspective of assuming that Nature is acting in good faith about this
Wrong. Unless you consider "good faith" saying what they really mean, in which case, yes, it IS good faith.
> I presume that most of you would agree that releasing this information for anyone to know would have negative consequences, and should maybe be controlled
No, most of HN's readers would not agree with that. A good many of us, maybe even most, would agree with the Bible, John 8:31-32:
And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Wrong. Unless you consider "good faith" saying what they really mean, in which case, yes, it IS good faith.
> I presume that most of you would agree that releasing this information for anyone to know would have negative consequences, and should maybe be controlled
No, most of HN's readers would not agree with that. A good many of us, maybe even most, would agree with the Bible, John 8:31-32:
And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
It's an interesting thought experiment. However, a lot of scientific discoveries have the possibility of being used for good or ill. Why single out this one?
Scanning of foetuses allows you to spot any issues to help keep the developing baby healthy, but is also used to abort female foetuses in some places.
Or what about nuclear physics - you get a decent energy source (subject to green objections) but also nuclear bombs.
I think until a scientific discovery is widely known, you never know what uses for good or ill it would be put to. Supposing the technology you outline above plus gene editing cured heart disease or cancer?
Scanning of foetuses allows you to spot any issues to help keep the developing baby healthy, but is also used to abort female foetuses in some places.
Or what about nuclear physics - you get a decent energy source (subject to green objections) but also nuclear bombs.
I think until a scientific discovery is widely known, you never know what uses for good or ill it would be put to. Supposing the technology you outline above plus gene editing cured heart disease or cancer?
That's a great example, much better than the one I thought of.
The line has to be somewhere, right? Even if someone dismisses your example, you can make it more and more extreme to the point of "if this knowledge becomes public, a maniac will 99% likely destroy the rest of the earth".
The line has to be somewhere, right? Even if someone dismisses your example, you can make it more and more extreme to the point of "if this knowledge becomes public, a maniac will 99% likely destroy the rest of the earth".
Which is more likely:
1. These censorship policies will be used to save the world from 99% certain destruction at the hands of a maniac.
2. These censorship policies will be used to crush evidence that [GROUP X] is overrepresented in [FAVORABLE SITUATION Y] due to [FAVORABLE TRAIT Z], thus legitimizing policies unjustly punishing [GROUP X].
Even if you think this censorship is righteous and good, how will you deal with folks no longer trusting the scientific basis of what you claim? Why should anyone believe there is no genetic difference between [GROUPS D and E] when you're confessing that you'd never admit it?
1. These censorship policies will be used to save the world from 99% certain destruction at the hands of a maniac.
2. These censorship policies will be used to crush evidence that [GROUP X] is overrepresented in [FAVORABLE SITUATION Y] due to [FAVORABLE TRAIT Z], thus legitimizing policies unjustly punishing [GROUP X].
Even if you think this censorship is righteous and good, how will you deal with folks no longer trusting the scientific basis of what you claim? Why should anyone believe there is no genetic difference between [GROUPS D and E] when you're confessing that you'd never admit it?
Once you realize that censorship is a defensive action, not an offensive one, it becomes clear.
You don’t censor to get more people on your side. You censor to defend the people you’ve already collected (ie prevent losing them to the other side).
You don’t censor to get more people on your side. You censor to defend the people you’ve already collected (ie prevent losing them to the other side).
Which of the guidelines do you think would prevent the discovery of genetic differences between two groups?
> In the world we live in, this would be used to abort babies that don't pass the PGS to the vast majority of people who have this information.
Does it matter? Neither fetuses nor abstract population groups are moral agents, only individual people are. Therefore, selective abortion of any kind (that does not cause potential offspring to be worse of) is morally neutral act.
Does it matter? Neither fetuses nor abstract population groups are moral agents, only individual people are. Therefore, selective abortion of any kind (that does not cause potential offspring to be worse of) is morally neutral act.
> In the world we live in, this would be used to abort babies
It would also be used to support babies. Parents would be motivated to move to communities with support, education, affirmation.
Any helpful tool can also be harmful. The solution to misuse isn't enforced ignorance, it's education in virtue.
It would also be used to support babies. Parents would be motivated to move to communities with support, education, affirmation.
Any helpful tool can also be harmful. The solution to misuse isn't enforced ignorance, it's education in virtue.
I think we should terminate all pregnancies, as the baby could become a racist. We should be able to deprive the KKK community of all future members.
Summary: Orthodoxy above all. If your Facts run over the Dogma we won't publish it.
The astrophysical sciences make me feel vulnerable, insignificant, insecure, and irrelevant relative to the vast expanse of the universe.
I demand an end to this harm.
I demand an end to this harm.
Telescopes evoke phallic associations and so promote the male dominance. The world demands female-friendly optics. #defundastronomy #cancelgalileo
Reminds me of the person claiming data driven design as a term was sexiest and exclusionary cause the abbreviation was (ddd) which is also a bra size
https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/1073251153360482304
https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/1073251153360482304
I did try to read it in good faith and give it the benefit of the doubt, but there's about 20 red flags in the article. With the ultimate smoking gun "to consult with advocacy" groups.
Advocacy groups as gatekeepers for scientific publication. It's impossible to get a more biased, emotional and fatalistic view on science.
The next articles on the website:
"Marginalized" people struggling to attend conferences (due to Visa issues)". "Equity in the workplace." "Cultural diversity is crucial for African neuroethics" "Historical trauma compounds experiences of racial injustice"
It's like a Tumblr blog. You can't ever meet the moral "purity" of such staff, so I predict serious scientists go elsewhere, and a game of oppression Olympics begins, as oppression is power.
Advocacy groups as gatekeepers for scientific publication. It's impossible to get a more biased, emotional and fatalistic view on science.
The next articles on the website:
"Marginalized" people struggling to attend conferences (due to Visa issues)". "Equity in the workplace." "Cultural diversity is crucial for African neuroethics" "Historical trauma compounds experiences of racial injustice"
It's like a Tumblr blog. You can't ever meet the moral "purity" of such staff, so I predict serious scientists go elsewhere, and a game of oppression Olympics begins, as oppression is power.
Pre-biasing results isn't science, it's propaganda.
I'm all about getting behind the idea that how we extrapolate and apply scientific discoveries and progress should be mindful of basic human rights and decency for all.
But the idea that the scientific findings themselves should be scoped to a specific perspective in order to disseminate is backwards hogwash as empty of scientific merit as the Church telling Galileo to rework his calculations to put Earth back in the center of the solar system.
It seems like we're no longer as a society making the case for the underlying pragmatism of equality (a trivial case to make) and are instead spending undue resources babysitting the idea as if it can't stand on its own or else it might hurt itself in its confusion.
I'm all about getting behind the idea that how we extrapolate and apply scientific discoveries and progress should be mindful of basic human rights and decency for all.
But the idea that the scientific findings themselves should be scoped to a specific perspective in order to disseminate is backwards hogwash as empty of scientific merit as the Church telling Galileo to rework his calculations to put Earth back in the center of the solar system.
It seems like we're no longer as a society making the case for the underlying pragmatism of equality (a trivial case to make) and are instead spending undue resources babysitting the idea as if it can't stand on its own or else it might hurt itself in its confusion.
[deleted]
Well, I respect them for formally stating as policy what was presumably being done informally for a long time.
It gives their audience something specific to disagree with, rather than a vague feeling that some kinds of research were being buried.
It gives their audience something specific to disagree with, rather than a vague feeling that some kinds of research were being buried.
I am getting dumb-funded by the obvious senseless thinking in the title:
Science is about the mechanisms of natural worlds. It's the foundation of human civilization. It's the basis of human thoughts and the ideology etc.
To say Science must respect dignity and rights of all humans, it's like to say nature must respect the dignity and rights of all humans. But Science is the rendition of natural world's mechanisms, they do not have personality and emotions. They cannot respect anything!
It's reasonable to say "scientists must respect the dignity and rights of all humans". It's senseless to say Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans.
Science is about the mechanisms of natural worlds. It's the foundation of human civilization. It's the basis of human thoughts and the ideology etc.
To say Science must respect dignity and rights of all humans, it's like to say nature must respect the dignity and rights of all humans. But Science is the rendition of natural world's mechanisms, they do not have personality and emotions. They cannot respect anything!
It's reasonable to say "scientists must respect the dignity and rights of all humans". It's senseless to say Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans.
Science is a human endeavor. They didn’t say the laws of nature must respect dignity/rights of humans.
Science is built in the minds of the humans though. You should read Kant. It’s never going to be possible to get away from our synthetic a priori constructions of space, time, causality, etc. and no, Hegel doesn’t solve this either
These kinds of policies will not help the people they seek to, instead they will only lessen the public trust in science. Further I believe studies that may benefit the mentioned groups will likely be looked at with even more skepticism now.
Science has nothing to do with the dignity and rights of all humans. Science just a mechanism for separating truth from nonsense.
I don't think that's true - science is a social process just as much as it is a method; it has institutions, funding, public relations, disputes on technical and non-technical points (article is case in point). As a social institution, it is well within the purview of social norms, unless we are to exempt scientists from criticism of their activities while wearing a lab coat (or to render such criticism incoherent) - an absurt proposition itself.
You and he are using "science" for different things. He is talking about a methodology, and you are talking about social institutions. It's like the difference between "prayer" and "the Church". The methodology of prayer is independent of what social agenda the Church may pursue.
could you please elaborate? because to me it feels like prayer (on an individual level) is very much aligned with the church's social agenda (on a global level)
I think that you are thinking of prayer in terms of what you pray for, while I was referring to your procedure for performing a prayer.
I wish I could upvote this harder.
"[...] Subsequent pontiffs continued to exhort the episcopate and the whole body of the faithful to be on their guard against heretical writings, whether old or new; and one of the functions of the Inquisition when it was established was to exercise a rigid censorship over books put in circulation. The majority of the condemnations were at that time of a specially theological character. With the discovery of the art of printing, and the wide and cheap diffusion of all sorts of books which ensued, the need for new precautions against heresy and immorality in literature made itself felt, and more than one pope (Sixtus IV. in 1479 and Alexander VI. in 1501) gave special directions to the archbishops of Cologne, Mainz, Trier and Magdeburg regarding the growing abuses of the printing press; in 1515 the Lateran council formulated the decree De Impressione Librorum, which required that no work should be printed without previous examination by the proper ecclesiastical authority, the penalty of unlicensed printing being excommunication of the culprit, and confiscation and destruction of the books. The council of Trent in its fourth session, 8th April 1546, forbade the sale or possession of any anonymous religious book which had not previously been seen and approved by the ordinary; in the same year the university of Louvain, at the command of Charles V., prepared an “Index” of pernicious and forbidden books, a second edition of which appeared in 1550."
I think that most of these types of guidelines and rules are written with good intent, but intent is what ruins good science.
Science, as a method, works when you have a hypothesis, but when that hypothesis isn't supported by your findings you can't just discard the findings and go "well I'm still pretty sure I was right anyway."
If you find something you disagree with to be true, that makes the science even more important to share! Other people can start to look at what you've seen and get more details and finer understanding.
Science, as a method, works when you have a hypothesis, but when that hypothesis isn't supported by your findings you can't just discard the findings and go "well I'm still pretty sure I was right anyway."
If you find something you disagree with to be true, that makes the science even more important to share! Other people can start to look at what you've seen and get more details and finer understanding.
The only 'good' intent in science is to pursue empirical truth based on the application of the scientific method. Every other intent is questionable, and certainly if one is following it, soon deviates from the realm of 'science'.
It's the same Science you know and trust, now with 50% more social consciousness!
This whole "having good intentions" as justification for anything scares the living crap out of me. I really believed we for once learned from history. Even letting the non trivial problem of defining what is "good" aside, intentions and results are very very different things. Intentions describe your own story for your actions. Its about how your see yourself. That has no impact on the result in reality. Valuing intentions instead of outcome is actual insanity.
And it only got worse once i realized that this isnt some kind of horrible stupid accident but people do this to deal with an utterly horrible reality they cant cope with anymore. So they just gave up on reality and instead focused on a story they can tell themselves to feel good despite reality.
edit: Just to point it out, even if both of those very obvious fundamental problems would be addressed, what would be left would be "the ends justify the means". Its utterly horrific from which ever angle you look at it.
And it only got worse once i realized that this isnt some kind of horrible stupid accident but people do this to deal with an utterly horrible reality they cant cope with anymore. So they just gave up on reality and instead focused on a story they can tell themselves to feel good despite reality.
edit: Just to point it out, even if both of those very obvious fundamental problems would be addressed, what would be left would be "the ends justify the means". Its utterly horrific from which ever angle you look at it.
You're more charitable than I am. I think these things are written with a mindset of "how far can we push this/what can we realistically get away with?"
Meta comment: It's disappointing to see this axed from the front page. While I agree we should generally avoid low quality flame-war inducing content, the fact that Nature, one of the most prestigious and renown scientific magazines/journals has adopted such a viewpoint certainly warrants exposure and discussion.
I don't see any evidence that it was "axed", it is not getting that many upvotes and is falling to later pages.
It was top 5 or 10 or so on the front page and then after a page refresh gone. It has more votes than many of the topics on the front page and discussion is active. Maybe just really unlucky timing on my part but not the normal progression you see. I know these type topics are typically removed from the spotlight by staff out of a presumption that the comments won’t be productive. I think that’s fair in some cases, but if it was done in this case I am stating my disagreement.
IIRC, posts with more comments than votes are automatically penalized. It is #11 on the front page now, though.
I'm guessing that's because they tend to be more controversial? But I mean, sometimes controversial stuff is important, that's why it's controversial.
I noticed the exact same thing. I found the post on the front page. A short time after, mid second page. Last I checked it was on the 3rd. I suspect there’s a bit too much wrongthink going on here and someone doesn’t like it. The priesthood is displeased with the vulgar masses in this thread.
When I clicked on it (4 hours after you posted this comment) it was in the 12th place on the first page.
It goes up and down. Don't assume malevolence.
Sometimes people flag posts. You can click "vouch" after a certain karma level to unflag it.
It goes up and down. Don't assume malevolence.
Sometimes people flag posts. You can click "vouch" after a certain karma level to unflag it.
The ACLU now only protects those they agree with, and Nature will only publish conclusions they like,
It's a mad world. And this is basically driving moderates into the arms of the authoritarian strongman who at least doesn't deny that water is wet.
It's a mad world. And this is basically driving moderates into the arms of the authoritarian strongman who at least doesn't deny that water is wet.
Here's an example of scientific research being questioned for such ethical reasons, in a less familiar area.
A genetic cure for hereditary deafness looks possible. Here's the objection: "Members of the signing Deaf community argue that research which aims to eliminate or cure deafness is a form of cultural genocide. The argument goes like this: the use of gene therapy to cure hereditary deafness would result in smaller numbers of deaf children. This, in turn, would reduce the critical mass of signing Deaf people needed for a flourishing community, ultimately resulting in the demise of the community."[1]
A similar argument has been made against cochlear implants, which already work in many people who are totally deaf. "According to the National Association of the Deaf (NAD), “An implant is not a ‘cure’ and an implanted individual is still deaf,” which makes us realize the crux of the issue. Those who are deaf and hard of hearing consider these disabilities to be aspects of their identities. By using the cochlear implant, they are essentially killing a piece of themselves that they’ve lived with from the day they were born."[2]
Think about that for a while.
[1] https://impactethics.ca/2017/03/02/gene-therapy-a-threat-to-...
[2] https://www.theodysseyonline.com/cochlear-implant-controvers...
A genetic cure for hereditary deafness looks possible. Here's the objection: "Members of the signing Deaf community argue that research which aims to eliminate or cure deafness is a form of cultural genocide. The argument goes like this: the use of gene therapy to cure hereditary deafness would result in smaller numbers of deaf children. This, in turn, would reduce the critical mass of signing Deaf people needed for a flourishing community, ultimately resulting in the demise of the community."[1]
A similar argument has been made against cochlear implants, which already work in many people who are totally deaf. "According to the National Association of the Deaf (NAD), “An implant is not a ‘cure’ and an implanted individual is still deaf,” which makes us realize the crux of the issue. Those who are deaf and hard of hearing consider these disabilities to be aspects of their identities. By using the cochlear implant, they are essentially killing a piece of themselves that they’ve lived with from the day they were born."[2]
Think about that for a while.
[1] https://impactethics.ca/2017/03/02/gene-therapy-a-threat-to-...
[2] https://www.theodysseyonline.com/cochlear-implant-controvers...
Can I infer from this comment that you disapprove of the Deaf community's stance on this?
If so, I suggest reaching out to your local Deaf community and spending some time with them. Maybe take an ASL class. You will find that, indeed, there is a unique culture in the Deaf community. You may not end up agreeing that deafness should never be cured, but it will at least give you some context you seem to be missing.
Since you said cochlear implants "already work in many people who are totally deaf" I think you may be missing the most crucial part of one of the quotes you gave: An implant is not a ‘cure’ and an implanted individual is still deaf.
Cochlear implants don't let you hear very well. Most users still rely heavily on lip reading and sign language.
I will give a personal anecdote. I am not deaf, but I have taken ASL classes and engaged with the Deaf community. I met one person who was born totally deaf but got cochlear implants as a child. She cannot converse with hearing people as normal. She is impressively good at lip reading, but still misses a lot of nuance in conversation, and her speaking voice does not sound like a normal person's. So she has been ostracized from social and professional groups. At the same time, she is also ostracized from the Deaf community, because she can't sign as fluently as a child who grew up signing, and the majority of the community is against implants. So she has the worst of both worlds.
So, if I'm correct and your implication is "Obviously deafness should be cured," then I think you may be missing a lot of cultural context and some facts about how the implants work. Perhaps a 100% effective genetic cure would change the discussion somehow, but I'm not sure it changes the cultural implications.
If so, I suggest reaching out to your local Deaf community and spending some time with them. Maybe take an ASL class. You will find that, indeed, there is a unique culture in the Deaf community. You may not end up agreeing that deafness should never be cured, but it will at least give you some context you seem to be missing.
Since you said cochlear implants "already work in many people who are totally deaf" I think you may be missing the most crucial part of one of the quotes you gave: An implant is not a ‘cure’ and an implanted individual is still deaf.
Cochlear implants don't let you hear very well. Most users still rely heavily on lip reading and sign language.
I will give a personal anecdote. I am not deaf, but I have taken ASL classes and engaged with the Deaf community. I met one person who was born totally deaf but got cochlear implants as a child. She cannot converse with hearing people as normal. She is impressively good at lip reading, but still misses a lot of nuance in conversation, and her speaking voice does not sound like a normal person's. So she has been ostracized from social and professional groups. At the same time, she is also ostracized from the Deaf community, because she can't sign as fluently as a child who grew up signing, and the majority of the community is against implants. So she has the worst of both worlds.
So, if I'm correct and your implication is "Obviously deafness should be cured," then I think you may be missing a lot of cultural context and some facts about how the implants work. Perhaps a 100% effective genetic cure would change the discussion somehow, but I'm not sure it changes the cultural implications.
(I'm not that person, but I have opinions on this. I'm also not deaf, but I am autistic, and the autistic community has a lot of parallels to this that I can't help but notice.)
> because she can't sign as fluently as a child who grew up signing, and the majority of the community is against implants
This is two separate issues.
I view the first as like any other language fluency thing: should English-speaking communities ostracize members who are less fluent in English? If they're extremely non-fluent, to the point of not being able to communicate at all, then there is no morality here; it's kind of just an unfortunate thing that happens as a result of non-communication, like if I (a non-Mandarin speaker) showed up to a Mandarin-speaking social group and tried to be their friend. If they just have a thick accent and word things oddly sometimes, doing so might be an asshole move.
The second is entirely the community's problem. People should, at least, have the option of curing (even partially) their own deafness, without facing weird stigma from other people who choose not to do so. It is ridiculous to ostracize other people for doing things that they feel improve their own lives, even if you would not make that same change to yourself.
In our universe where we don't yet have a good way of doing so, what this means is that research into developing better implants is a good thing. Forcing implants on all deaf people would be immoral, as would forcing any other medical thing on people. But just making the option available is not.
I don't know how this translates to children too young to meaningfully consent, and I will stubbornly refuse to form an opinion on that because it depends on factors that I know nothing about. I don't think it matters, because it is immoral to hold back things from consenting adults solely because we haven't decided whether children should have them too.
> because she can't sign as fluently as a child who grew up signing, and the majority of the community is against implants
This is two separate issues.
I view the first as like any other language fluency thing: should English-speaking communities ostracize members who are less fluent in English? If they're extremely non-fluent, to the point of not being able to communicate at all, then there is no morality here; it's kind of just an unfortunate thing that happens as a result of non-communication, like if I (a non-Mandarin speaker) showed up to a Mandarin-speaking social group and tried to be their friend. If they just have a thick accent and word things oddly sometimes, doing so might be an asshole move.
The second is entirely the community's problem. People should, at least, have the option of curing (even partially) their own deafness, without facing weird stigma from other people who choose not to do so. It is ridiculous to ostracize other people for doing things that they feel improve their own lives, even if you would not make that same change to yourself.
In our universe where we don't yet have a good way of doing so, what this means is that research into developing better implants is a good thing. Forcing implants on all deaf people would be immoral, as would forcing any other medical thing on people. But just making the option available is not.
I don't know how this translates to children too young to meaningfully consent, and I will stubbornly refuse to form an opinion on that because it depends on factors that I know nothing about. I don't think it matters, because it is immoral to hold back things from consenting adults solely because we haven't decided whether children should have them too.
Reminds me of the book Far From The Tree. The deaf have formed proud communities but have also spawned zealous subcultures that are effectively cults. Some seriously suggest that deaf children should be taken away from unafflicted parents.
There's a science fiction story about that, from before cochlear implants worked. Anyone know the reference?
Probably not what you're thinking about, but book three or four in the Ender's Game series (Orson Scott Card) has a community of very OCD people (women?), which are revered as being holy. During the book it is discovered that the cause is genetic, not from the divine. A cure is developed, which almost all of the community take, but the head priestess refuses to get the cure, insisting on believing that she is divinely touched and remaining enslaved to OCD compulsions.
We are converging on a new definition of truth which takes into account social harm. Claims which protect the marginalized and/or harm those groups deemed to be hate groups must be taken as true; claims which do the opposite must be taken as false.
It kind of sucks if you believe in objectivity -- but the postmodernists taught us there is no such thing. Any pretense to objectivity is a means to trick your sorry ass and gain power over you. Like it or not, this is the world of Marcuse, Derrida, Baudrillard and Foucault.
It kind of sucks if you believe in objectivity -- but the postmodernists taught us there is no such thing. Any pretense to objectivity is a means to trick your sorry ass and gain power over you. Like it or not, this is the world of Marcuse, Derrida, Baudrillard and Foucault.
I cannot help feeling like what we see in things like this is the manifestation of a new religion. My only hope is, this woke/scientist religion doesn’t become a new christianity and instead dies sooner. But even if it goes the way of christianity my only happy though is there will be a point in the future when the wokes will be looked down with the same disgust and revulsion they look down on christianity now.
>I cannot help feeling like what we see in things like this is the manifestation of a new religion.
"Problematic" is the "blasphemous" of said new religion.
"Problematic" is the "blasphemous" of said new religion.
As academic world starts to act more like a religious church, and losing grip on being the good pastors of science, the actual scientific community will detach themselves and leave the academic dogmatists with a label of "scientism" at best.
In time perhaps, but it could be a long road to that point. I would rather us avoid having to go down that path at all.
Not so simple, remember the inquisition?
This would not only destroys woke research but pro-woke as well because if you are guaranteeing publication bias you can't trust the research either way.
This is also a boon to racists who never have to defend themselves against science again.
"Yeah that study shows that Hispanic immigrants don't commit more crimes, but it's against the rules to publish anything else"
This is also a boon to racists who never have to defend themselves against science again.
"Yeah that study shows that Hispanic immigrants don't commit more crimes, but it's against the rules to publish anything else"
This all seems quite dull considering the other reactions here:
> Studies that use the constructs of race and/or ethnicity should explicitly motivate their use. Race/ethnicity should not be used as proxies for other variables — for example, socioeconomic status or income. For studies involving data collected from human participants, researchers should explain:
* who provided the classification terms (the participants, the researchers or third parties)
* what the classification terms are
* how racial/ethnic identity was determined (by the participants, the researchers or third parties)
> Biomedical studies should not conflate genetic ancestry (a biological construct) and race/ethnicity (sociopolitical constructs): although race/ethnicity are important constructs for the study of disparities in health outcomes and health care, empirically established genetic ancestry is the appropriate construct for the study of the biological aetiology of diseases or differences in treatment response. If race/ethnicity are used in the context of disease aetiology due to the unavailability of genetic ancestry data, this should be done with caution and clarification.
> Studies that use the constructs of race and/or ethnicity should explicitly motivate their use. Race/ethnicity should not be used as proxies for other variables — for example, socioeconomic status or income. For studies involving data collected from human participants, researchers should explain:
* who provided the classification terms (the participants, the researchers or third parties)
* what the classification terms are
* how racial/ethnic identity was determined (by the participants, the researchers or third parties)
> Biomedical studies should not conflate genetic ancestry (a biological construct) and race/ethnicity (sociopolitical constructs): although race/ethnicity are important constructs for the study of disparities in health outcomes and health care, empirically established genetic ancestry is the appropriate construct for the study of the biological aetiology of diseases or differences in treatment response. If race/ethnicity are used in the context of disease aetiology due to the unavailability of genetic ancestry data, this should be done with caution and clarification.
As someone who believes in Darwinism I think this is good as it will only accelerate shifting any meaningful research into the labs of private multi-billion companies.
Will this be good for us, the public? Probably not but only the capable survive, and the current academia is not capable of survival.
Will this be good for us, the public? Probably not but only the capable survive, and the current academia is not capable of survival.
It entirely unsurprising that an author cannot be found attached to this excrement
"Satoshi Kanazawa suggested that evolution favors higher IQ in areas that are farther from the evolutionary origin of humans: sub-Saharan Africa." This sentence from Scientific American (which itself got it from a peer-reviewed paper) 'seems' racist. The publisher could reject it by saying this study can be used against sub-Saharan African. I don't know that relationship is valid or not but even if it's valid, scientist could not publish it.
It would be great if the author would provide example research which they think should not have been published under this new ethics guidance.
I wouldn't know, but if I were to guess it would be this article: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2207323 ("Overall, 98% of the persons with infection were gay or bisexual men")
Can anyone actually think of an actual discovery that harmed people?
I'm missing some actual examples of what they're trying to protect people from.
I'm missing some actual examples of what they're trying to protect people from.
e.g. the eugenics movement, which led to forced sterilizations of people who many scientists of the time considered "unfit to reproduce."
https://www.history.com/topics/germany/eugenics#section_3
https://www.history.com/topics/germany/eugenics#section_3
Eugenics was never "discovered". It was a theory latched onto by politicians to deadly ends.
Metrics like IQ also help establish merit instead of nepotism, and identify what level a person is capable of learning at.
A group metric for your country becoming more successful and capable of maintaining what we call "democracy" -- 95 IQ and below can't really.
A group metric for your country becoming more successful and capable of maintaining what we call "democracy" -- 95 IQ and below can't really.
[deleted]
Invention of atomic bombs?! Who knows what they are actually talking about, when you throw you nest wide you can always pick and choose later, that's the aim here.
Journal articles aren't necessarily about discoveries, the results of the study may contribute nothing other than "noise" that will be creatively interpreted by a community.
Even if there are examples, they will be political examples and not scientific ones. Of course, they'd conveniently conflate the two to mislead the less observant among us.
Your observational powers have somehow missed the reality that politicians customarily lean on science-derived "science" to lend credibility to their actions.
The public, broadly, cannot tell the difference between science and "science." Any scientist who doesn't perform their work with this in mind is a politician's pawn, whether they want to be or not.
The public, broadly, cannot tell the difference between science and "science." Any scientist who doesn't perform their work with this in mind is a politician's pawn, whether they want to be or not.
There is a very clear trend in the HN crowd's reaction to this statement, so I'm inclined to offer a defense. I'm not linked to Nature in any way, just of a rebellious bent.
The principle objections to the guidance appear to fall into the following categories:
* They threaten the objectivity of science
* They prevent the publication of "heretical"/"non-PC" results
* They are too vague
I strongly recommend that people read the actual guidelines before forming a strong opinion about the linked statement: https://www.nature.com/nature-portfolio/editorial-policies/e...
I'd also recommend mulling for a moment on the trade-off between scientific freedom and ethics. Because it has always existed and journals have for a very long time had a position on what is an appropriate trade-off. We've come far since scientists were able to cut live dogs open without anesthetic for their experiments, and that's a good thing.
The great majority of the guidelines are in my opinion very specific (as opposed to vague) and relate either to the conduct of the research or to the language of the paper (as opposed to the results of the research). They are geared towards the removal of bias and make reference to guidelines set out by other well-established organisations.
Probably the most problematic guideline is this one:
> [editors reserve the right to request modifications to] content that undermines - or could reasonably be perceived to undermine - the rights and dignities of an individual or human group on the basis of socially constructed or socially relevant human groupings.
I concede that this part requires further refinement, since it looks like it could be used to refuse results that aren't "woke". My good-faith take is that it really means "be careful you don't give matches to the pyromaniac". For example, if you're going to publish a result about substance abuse amongst different demographics, please be very cautious about the risk that certain institutions might use it as a pseudo-justification for persection of minorities.
At the end of the day, a journal has a great ethical responsibility for the impact of what it publishes, and is within its rights to say "no" on that basis.
The principle objections to the guidance appear to fall into the following categories:
* They threaten the objectivity of science
* They prevent the publication of "heretical"/"non-PC" results
* They are too vague
I strongly recommend that people read the actual guidelines before forming a strong opinion about the linked statement: https://www.nature.com/nature-portfolio/editorial-policies/e...
I'd also recommend mulling for a moment on the trade-off between scientific freedom and ethics. Because it has always existed and journals have for a very long time had a position on what is an appropriate trade-off. We've come far since scientists were able to cut live dogs open without anesthetic for their experiments, and that's a good thing.
The great majority of the guidelines are in my opinion very specific (as opposed to vague) and relate either to the conduct of the research or to the language of the paper (as opposed to the results of the research). They are geared towards the removal of bias and make reference to guidelines set out by other well-established organisations.
Probably the most problematic guideline is this one:
> [editors reserve the right to request modifications to] content that undermines - or could reasonably be perceived to undermine - the rights and dignities of an individual or human group on the basis of socially constructed or socially relevant human groupings.
I concede that this part requires further refinement, since it looks like it could be used to refuse results that aren't "woke". My good-faith take is that it really means "be careful you don't give matches to the pyromaniac". For example, if you're going to publish a result about substance abuse amongst different demographics, please be very cautious about the risk that certain institutions might use it as a pseudo-justification for persection of minorities.
At the end of the day, a journal has a great ethical responsibility for the impact of what it publishes, and is within its rights to say "no" on that basis.
> At the end of the day, a journal has a great ethical responsibility for the impact of what it publishes, and is within its rights to say "no" on that basis.
You state this like it is or should be fact, but this is precisely the problem. Science should be the beginning of a chain starting at knowledge and leading to policy: science -> politics -> policy. It is not the job of scientists to try and predict or assume reactions to science; that partially inverts the flow: politics -> science -> policy. By placing politics first, science becomes politics, as nothing disapproved will reach the science phase of the process.
You state this like it is or should be fact, but this is precisely the problem. Science should be the beginning of a chain starting at knowledge and leading to policy: science -> politics -> policy. It is not the job of scientists to try and predict or assume reactions to science; that partially inverts the flow: politics -> science -> policy. By placing politics first, science becomes politics, as nothing disapproved will reach the science phase of the process.
> Science should be the beginning of a chain starting at knowledge and leading to policy
I sympathise with the goal of separating science from cultural politics. It feels like I'm against the tide here but I actually think the great majority of the guidelines strengthen this chain by promoting clarity and eliminating cultural assumptions. For example, specifying that the commonly accepted and/or scientific meanings of words like "sex" and "race" are used, and that the language adheres to bias-free practises.
A thought experiment: if you were an editor and received a manuscript which was perfectly fine up until the last line which said "and as well all know, homosexuals are weak-willed sissies", would you still go ahead and publsh if the author completely refused to remove that line?
I sympathise with the goal of separating science from cultural politics. It feels like I'm against the tide here but I actually think the great majority of the guidelines strengthen this chain by promoting clarity and eliminating cultural assumptions. For example, specifying that the commonly accepted and/or scientific meanings of words like "sex" and "race" are used, and that the language adheres to bias-free practises.
A thought experiment: if you were an editor and received a manuscript which was perfectly fine up until the last line which said "and as well all know, homosexuals are weak-willed sissies", would you still go ahead and publsh if the author completely refused to remove that line?
> if you were an editor and received a manuscript which was perfectly fine up until the last line which said "and as well all know, homosexuals are weak-willed sissies", would you still go ahead and publish
No, because "weak-willed sissies" is subjective, informal, and indicative of an emotional value judgment in that context.
But suppose there were no sensationalism, and the paper instead showed a higher rate of suicidal ideation among trans people. Would that be publishable under the new guidelines?
Opponents of the research might argue no, because it suggests trans people to be weak and self-pitying.
Proponents might argue yes, because it reveals the oppression of a marginalized group and a societal duty to support them.
That's the trouble with conflating "what is" and "what should we do about it" or even "what should we think about it."
No, because "weak-willed sissies" is subjective, informal, and indicative of an emotional value judgment in that context.
But suppose there were no sensationalism, and the paper instead showed a higher rate of suicidal ideation among trans people. Would that be publishable under the new guidelines?
Opponents of the research might argue no, because it suggests trans people to be weak and self-pitying.
Proponents might argue yes, because it reveals the oppression of a marginalized group and a societal duty to support them.
That's the trouble with conflating "what is" and "what should we do about it" or even "what should we think about it."
> Opponents of the research might argue no, because it suggests trans people to be weak and self-pitying.
That's not a reasonable argument, as suicidal ideation is just as likely influenced by external factors. Is your concern more about the editors abusing their own guidelines in an unreasonable way, rather than the guidelines themselves?
That's not a reasonable argument, as suicidal ideation is just as likely influenced by external factors. Is your concern more about the editors abusing their own guidelines in an unreasonable way, rather than the guidelines themselves?
> Is your concern more about the editors abusing their own guidelines in an unreasonable way, rather than the guidelines themselves?
My concern is the suppression of knowledge out of the fear of potential interpretations. That's the explicitly stated goal of the guidelines, and I see it as a bad, dangerous way of thinking about science.
My concern is the suppression of knowledge out of the fear of potential interpretations. That's the explicitly stated goal of the guidelines, and I see it as a bad, dangerous way of thinking about science.
One interesting thing I've noticed from this thread is that the objections often use phrasing like "science should be ...".
This of course raises the question why ought science be done in a certain way. The justification must ultimately be normative, e.g. "so we can reduce human suffering more effectively". I think some people have this idea that science can be cleanly divorced from values, but that doesn't make sense to me; the science that we choose to do and the way we choose to do it is subtly but definitely tethered to our values. Like Hume said, "reason is and ought only to be the slave of the passions". If the carrying out of science is justified normatively - and I accept that for some this is a big "if" - then it makes sense that sometimes those norms will be challenged. Sometimes it will be debatable whether publishing a piece of knowledge is for the human good.
I'm kind of spitballing and playing devil's advocate here as I don't know the answer and haven't been convinced by what anyone has said yet. It's starting to remind me of Yudkowsky banning discussion of Roko's Basilisk. That's someone who clearly values both knowledge and ethics, and was torn over a conflict between the two.
This of course raises the question why ought science be done in a certain way. The justification must ultimately be normative, e.g. "so we can reduce human suffering more effectively". I think some people have this idea that science can be cleanly divorced from values, but that doesn't make sense to me; the science that we choose to do and the way we choose to do it is subtly but definitely tethered to our values. Like Hume said, "reason is and ought only to be the slave of the passions". If the carrying out of science is justified normatively - and I accept that for some this is a big "if" - then it makes sense that sometimes those norms will be challenged. Sometimes it will be debatable whether publishing a piece of knowledge is for the human good.
I'm kind of spitballing and playing devil's advocate here as I don't know the answer and haven't been convinced by what anyone has said yet. It's starting to remind me of Yudkowsky banning discussion of Roko's Basilisk. That's someone who clearly values both knowledge and ethics, and was torn over a conflict between the two.
I like Carl Sagan's "science as a candle in the dark." A candle can be used to light a house or to burn it down.
What these guidelines say to me is, "Too many people want to burn the house down right now. Our solution is to stop making candles. We'll make wax figurines instead."
But what makes candles dangerous is also what makes them useful.
To me a better solution (to those of us who use candles for good) would be to help reform the arsonists. Why are there so many of them? Did they get the same education as others? Where do they get their news? What do they believe? What resources do they have or not have access to?
Otherwise, good actors are deprived of tools that would let them, as you said, and I agree, reduce human suffering more effectively.
What these guidelines say to me is, "Too many people want to burn the house down right now. Our solution is to stop making candles. We'll make wax figurines instead."
But what makes candles dangerous is also what makes them useful.
To me a better solution (to those of us who use candles for good) would be to help reform the arsonists. Why are there so many of them? Did they get the same education as others? Where do they get their news? What do they believe? What resources do they have or not have access to?
Otherwise, good actors are deprived of tools that would let them, as you said, and I agree, reduce human suffering more effectively.
The whole point of science is to find the truth, not to only find the truths that we feel comfortable with.
Of course many scientists throughout history have sucked at that at various times, but that doesn't make it a bad ideal.
Of course many scientists throughout history have sucked at that at various times, but that doesn't make it a bad ideal.
I read through the guidelines. I'm firmly in the camp that the fundamental ideas of the guidelines stem from ideas that deny the existence of objective shared reality. But science is and always has been the pursuit of knowledge of objective shared reality. The guidelines are antithetical to science.
> a journal has a great ethical responsibility for the impact of what it publishes and is within its rights to say "no" on that basis.
No. This is really hilarious, but really though, No.
The whole point of science is no content-related norms. You can put content-related norms wherever you want. You can put them in your useless HR departments, you can put them in the brainwashing (uh, ahem, "orientation") of new hires. But the moment you start saying "All papers dealing with topic X are refused, regardless of supporting evidence or explanatory\predictive power" then you're literally not doing science. You're playing dress up.
Every single philosophy of science from pre-Popper onwards is very clear that good science doesn't give a single shit about the moral content of an idea and how politically-correct it is, only how well supported it is and how elegantly it explains existing data and how accurately it predicts new data.
Evolution says you're no better and no worse than rats, who are also your distant cousins btw, neuroscience says that what we call "you" is really just a bunch of electrochemistry that anybody can learn to manipulate and push to do things. Science doesn't give a shit about your panic that somebody can "misinterpret" those results, that's your problem, stop being lazy and find other solutions to it, don't censor science.
No. This is really hilarious, but really though, No.
The whole point of science is no content-related norms. You can put content-related norms wherever you want. You can put them in your useless HR departments, you can put them in the brainwashing (uh, ahem, "orientation") of new hires. But the moment you start saying "All papers dealing with topic X are refused, regardless of supporting evidence or explanatory\predictive power" then you're literally not doing science. You're playing dress up.
Every single philosophy of science from pre-Popper onwards is very clear that good science doesn't give a single shit about the moral content of an idea and how politically-correct it is, only how well supported it is and how elegantly it explains existing data and how accurately it predicts new data.
Evolution says you're no better and no worse than rats, who are also your distant cousins btw, neuroscience says that what we call "you" is really just a bunch of electrochemistry that anybody can learn to manipulate and push to do things. Science doesn't give a shit about your panic that somebody can "misinterpret" those results, that's your problem, stop being lazy and find other solutions to it, don't censor science.
I want to call out one of the elephants in the room here, one that I'm sure was a major motivator in the development of this article - racial differences in IQ.
Some people take these measured differences as sufficient cause to declare the entire concept of IQ as worthless racist pseudoscience, despite all the evidence to the contrary [1]. But it's also been shown that, for example, the black-white IQ gap is closing in America [2], a process we also observed the Irish go through [3].
If only racists like Richard Lynn did research on race and intelligence, we wouldn't know this. Lynn claims to have investigated this topic and shown that the gap is NOT closing. Discovering the opposite required less biased researchers to engage tenaciously and scientifically with technical issues, questions of measurement, etc., along with the understanding that IQ is a meaningful measurement worth engaging with.
Would we prefer that anti-racists be scared off this research, and have only racists doing it? Wouldn't that feed a narrative that the racists have the truth the Establishment wants to hide?
I don't think this is a simple and straightforward issue. Moralizing a topic like race and IQ and pre-emptively closing it off to inquiry could really be shooting ourselves in the foot. Instead of preventing science from harming marginalized groups, we could be preventing science from protecting marginalized groups.
And I'm not saying the authors of this article are doing that. But I think we all need to grapple with this backfire risk when we go about applying the principles in this article. Which, as I've said elsewhere, are good as far as general principles go.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Intelligence-That-Matters-Stuart-Ritc...
[2] https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2006061...
[3] https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/06/heres-why-the...
Some people take these measured differences as sufficient cause to declare the entire concept of IQ as worthless racist pseudoscience, despite all the evidence to the contrary [1]. But it's also been shown that, for example, the black-white IQ gap is closing in America [2], a process we also observed the Irish go through [3].
If only racists like Richard Lynn did research on race and intelligence, we wouldn't know this. Lynn claims to have investigated this topic and shown that the gap is NOT closing. Discovering the opposite required less biased researchers to engage tenaciously and scientifically with technical issues, questions of measurement, etc., along with the understanding that IQ is a meaningful measurement worth engaging with.
Would we prefer that anti-racists be scared off this research, and have only racists doing it? Wouldn't that feed a narrative that the racists have the truth the Establishment wants to hide?
I don't think this is a simple and straightforward issue. Moralizing a topic like race and IQ and pre-emptively closing it off to inquiry could really be shooting ourselves in the foot. Instead of preventing science from harming marginalized groups, we could be preventing science from protecting marginalized groups.
And I'm not saying the authors of this article are doing that. But I think we all need to grapple with this backfire risk when we go about applying the principles in this article. Which, as I've said elsewhere, are good as far as general principles go.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Intelligence-That-Matters-Stuart-Ritc...
[2] https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2006061...
[3] https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/06/heres-why-the...
I think the best way to help ethinic minorities and women is to get accurate facts about their lives. If you want to improve the world then you have to start from the truth.
the guidance helps in considering whether it is ethically appropriate to question a social group’s right to freedom or cultural rights
Somebody want to explain to me what the heck "cultural rights" are and how publishing data could interfere with them?
Somebody want to explain to me what the heck "cultural rights" are and how publishing data could interfere with them?
Sure: the LDS church teaches that pre-marital sex is a sin, and engaging in it is grounds for the termination of a variety of spiritual privileges, depending on the judgement of a local church leader. The legal freedom to live by that belief makes it a cultural right afforded to any practicing LDS person in the US.
A scientist could perform research investigating the impact of those teachings. They might find that it negatively impacts the ability of LDS adults to form healthy sexual attachments with their spouses, even though marriages are prized by the church. They could then publish those findings in a credible journal.
An anti-LDS government official in control of education in some state (say, California) could take those findings and use them to justify a new policy that all LDS children are required to attend sex-ed classes in school, and threaten parents with visits from child protection services if they refuse. Depending on the local governmental structure and voter demographics, this could pass into law relatively quickly.
Thus, a researcher's decision to publish has led to interference with LDS people's cultural rights.
There aren't many examples of human behavior this sequence of events couldn't apply to, if local powers (or distant ones) were so inclined. Do you think it's irresponsible for scientists to consider that?
A scientist could perform research investigating the impact of those teachings. They might find that it negatively impacts the ability of LDS adults to form healthy sexual attachments with their spouses, even though marriages are prized by the church. They could then publish those findings in a credible journal.
An anti-LDS government official in control of education in some state (say, California) could take those findings and use them to justify a new policy that all LDS children are required to attend sex-ed classes in school, and threaten parents with visits from child protection services if they refuse. Depending on the local governmental structure and voter demographics, this could pass into law relatively quickly.
Thus, a researcher's decision to publish has led to interference with LDS people's cultural rights.
There aren't many examples of human behavior this sequence of events couldn't apply to, if local powers (or distant ones) were so inclined. Do you think it's irresponsible for scientists to consider that?
Since LDS children are a subset of children, they should be required to take a comprehensive and accurate sex ed course in school. You have the right to teach your kids anything you want. You do not have the right to keep them ignorant of anything you want.
> could take those findings and use them to justify a new policy that all LDS children
No, they couldn't. Your proposed scenario here is insane. This would be blatantly unconstitutional.
No, they couldn't. Your proposed scenario here is insane. This would be blatantly unconstitutional.
Sure, and it could then be challenged in court. And depending on the alignment of the courts, they might find in favor of the policy, setting a precedent for future law.
Do you really not understand how things work in this country?
Do you really not understand how things work in this country?
I do, and I understand that something this blatantly unconstitutional (and widespread enough to be notable) would get slapped down by the courts super hard before being actually acted on.
Do you understand how things work in this country? When's the last time there was a statewide policy like this that explicitly targeted people of one particular religion? Especially kids going to state schools?
Do you understand how things work in this country? When's the last time there was a statewide policy like this that explicitly targeted people of one particular religion? Especially kids going to state schools?
It wouldn't target a particular religion, it would be a general policy protecting all children's right to education. LDS people being impacted would be an unfortunate side effect, not the promoted intention of the policy.
I genuinely can't tell if you're being disingenuous here. I'm not personally stressed about the rights of LDS people, but the procedural scenario I'm describing isn't even remotely far-fetched.
I genuinely can't tell if you're being disingenuous here. I'm not personally stressed about the rights of LDS people, but the procedural scenario I'm describing isn't even remotely far-fetched.
> It wouldn't target a particular religion
This makes it sound like it is indeed targeting a particular religion:
> An anti-LDS government official in control of education in some state (say, California) could take those findings and use them to justify a new policy that all LDS children are required to attend sex-ed classes in school
If what you meant was "all children, including LDS children" I think it could've been phrased a bit more clearly, because it sounds very targeted. That's the part I objected to.
But yeah if you mean, "secretly/implicitly targeting" like the hijab ban in France that's nominally a religious symbol ban, I could see that happening.
This makes it sound like it is indeed targeting a particular religion:
> An anti-LDS government official in control of education in some state (say, California) could take those findings and use them to justify a new policy that all LDS children are required to attend sex-ed classes in school
If what you meant was "all children, including LDS children" I think it could've been phrased a bit more clearly, because it sounds very targeted. That's the part I objected to.
But yeah if you mean, "secretly/implicitly targeting" like the hijab ban in France that's nominally a religious symbol ban, I could see that happening.
> the hijab ban in France that's nominally a religious symbol ban
A hijab is an extreme religious symbol, so it makes sense that it would be overrepresented in a ban of religious symbols.
That's like an American calling a law racist because its impact is coincidentally not racially balanced.
A hijab is an extreme religious symbol, so it makes sense that it would be overrepresented in a ban of religious symbols.
That's like an American calling a law racist because its impact is coincidentally not racially balanced.
The intent of the law was obviously to get rid of hijabs. That's the context, and nobody really disputes that, even though the text of the law doesn't explicitly target any particular religion.
I'm not sure I'd call it an extreme symbol, exactly, but I'm not a fan of the culture behind sexist cultural policies like that, where women are treated radically differently from men.
I'm not sure I'd call it an extreme symbol, exactly, but I'm not a fan of the culture behind sexist cultural policies like that, where women are treated radically differently from men.
Are hijabs focused on beyond what would be expected from the fact that they are extreme - they cover the user blocking identification, they prevent socialization, they stigmatize the wearer, and unlike some symbols (ex: a Sikh turban) they're forced upon the wearers by non-wearers - they signify the wearer is a possession who must be kept "clean" for her purchaser.
It's reasonable that hijabs would have been the straw that broke the electoral camel's back, and the focus of most of the enforcement, while the law is a general law without undue focus on hijabs. Hijabs are regressive in a way yarmulkas are not.
It's reasonable that hijabs would have been the straw that broke the electoral camel's back, and the focus of most of the enforcement, while the law is a general law without undue focus on hijabs. Hijabs are regressive in a way yarmulkas are not.
[deleted]
What I'm really curious about is why this kind of rhetoric immediately jumps out as a red light to me regardless of whether I agree with the intended outcome or not. Then there will be some developer, just like me, sitting right next to me, who is probably smarter than me, who just eats it up.
And for my own 2c, yes, scientific truth and freedom of speech trumps some abstract ethical risk every single time.
And for my own 2c, yes, scientific truth and freedom of speech trumps some abstract ethical risk every single time.
Evolution stops below the neck, everyone knows that :)
I'm having difficulty reconciling these two opinions:
1. This ethics guidance is bad because it limits, or even censors, scientific investigation related to socially sensitive topics.
2. Social science has a reproducibility crisis and is mostly useless (a viewpoint commonly expressed in response to other articles).
Does anyone hold both of these opinions, or is it just different people talking at different times?
1. This ethics guidance is bad because it limits, or even censors, scientific investigation related to socially sensitive topics.
2. Social science has a reproducibility crisis and is mostly useless (a viewpoint commonly expressed in response to other articles).
Does anyone hold both of these opinions, or is it just different people talking at different times?
If you're using outrage to select science for what's pleasing to hear instead of what's true, you can use 1 as an explanation for 2. And 1 isn't exactly new.
Ah, so the social science reproducibility problems are hypothesized to be caused by bias (or, less provocatively, filtering), moreso than e.g. bad experimental design. Yes, that would nicely reconcile both perspectives.
There's plenty of room for both. If you have lots of bad experiments and filter the ones you agree with, the combination is even worse because there's an apparent consensus.
I hold both of these views.
Science is about figuring out the truth about the world.
Censorship prevents that.
Something that is not reproducible isn’t even science.
I really don’t see a contradiction.
Science is about figuring out the truth about the world.
Censorship prevents that.
Something that is not reproducible isn’t even science.
I really don’t see a contradiction.
These are orthogonal issues.
Are they really? If social science is unreliable, then it is reasonable to conclude that (a) limiting its scope of investigation doesn't matter or even (b) limiting its scope of investigation is actually good, so that it at least does less harm. In what perspective are the issues fully orthogonal?
Stereotypes (about all groups) and their accuracy are some of the most replicable in social science, yet would likely be considered hateful or insensitive.
Any measures of difference between people. Neoteny, IQ, etc.
Any measures of difference between people. Neoteny, IQ, etc.
There is a lot of off the cuff reactions in the comments, most from non-scientists, who obviously did not read the actual guidelines that are being proposed, which primarily encourage full transparency and contextualization when scientists use group variables, and to avoid over generalization of findings by relying on stereotypes without empirical basis.
The actual guidelines that are being proposed, namely the following quote, do sound like a veiled requirement to self-censor (or 'contextualize') any data or findings that go against the expected norm.
"Researchers are asked to carefully consider the potential implications (including inadvertent consequences) of research on human groups defined by attributes of race, ethnicity, national or social origin, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, political or other beliefs, age, disease, (dis)ability or other status, to be reflective of their authorial perspective if not part of the group under study, and contextualise their findings to minimize as much as possible potential misuse or risks of harm to the studied groups in the public sphere."
I would argue that the "possible misuse" of some undesirable findings explicitly should not be a valid factor to consider, since it's even more important to publish valid findings especially if they are controversial. As you say, we should definitely avoid generalization of findings by relying on stereotypes without empirical basis (because that's a false implication), however, we should also not shun findings strongly supported by empirical basis even if they coincide with some stereotypes - and this statement does not even try to mention this balance.
I would welcome the same passage to say something like "If this research touches these sensitive topics, then we implore the authors, reviewers and editors to be double-sure that the assertions are actually true, but for $Deity's sake don't ever omit any controversial but true results".
In essence, it's a statement about priorities and values. Being respectful is important. Being true is important. But if you say that the former is more important than the latter and should sometimes override it, then you don't share my values and are not a friend of science; you should respect the dignity and rights of all humans as long as it doesn't harm the communication of truth and not an inch more.
"Researchers are asked to carefully consider the potential implications (including inadvertent consequences) of research on human groups defined by attributes of race, ethnicity, national or social origin, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, political or other beliefs, age, disease, (dis)ability or other status, to be reflective of their authorial perspective if not part of the group under study, and contextualise their findings to minimize as much as possible potential misuse or risks of harm to the studied groups in the public sphere."
I would argue that the "possible misuse" of some undesirable findings explicitly should not be a valid factor to consider, since it's even more important to publish valid findings especially if they are controversial. As you say, we should definitely avoid generalization of findings by relying on stereotypes without empirical basis (because that's a false implication), however, we should also not shun findings strongly supported by empirical basis even if they coincide with some stereotypes - and this statement does not even try to mention this balance.
I would welcome the same passage to say something like "If this research touches these sensitive topics, then we implore the authors, reviewers and editors to be double-sure that the assertions are actually true, but for $Deity's sake don't ever omit any controversial but true results".
In essence, it's a statement about priorities and values. Being respectful is important. Being true is important. But if you say that the former is more important than the latter and should sometimes override it, then you don't share my values and are not a friend of science; you should respect the dignity and rights of all humans as long as it doesn't harm the communication of truth and not an inch more.
> most from non-scientists
I am really curious about your source on this.
I am really curious about your source on this.
This was once a Simpsons joke.
The religious extremist (Ned Flanders) said "there a things we don't WANT to know. IMPORTANT things!"
The religious extremist (Ned Flanders) said "there a things we don't WANT to know. IMPORTANT things!"
People must respect the dignity and rights of all humans.
Science must be free from this nonsense, and just be science. What a joke.
Science must be free from this nonsense, and just be science. What a joke.
Science is (and should continue to be) cold and unfeeling. That's why it's science. Science!
The scientific method is a process. There is no need to anthropomorphize it. What exactly are you trying to say?
Some top-voted comments are dismissive of this, but I think it's reasonable as far as it goes. The devil is of course in the details.
Some people will take this to mean "facts and analyses that I deem inconsistent with my values are unethical to publish", and we'll have to deal with that when it comes up.
Some people will take this to mean "facts and analyses that I deem inconsistent with my values are unethical to publish", and we'll have to deal with that when it comes up.
Reading the 395 comments so far, I see a lot of reference to the history of church censorship, but surprisingly, nothing at all about culture under the communist regimes of the 20th century, which I think is a much closer analogy.
I spent a lot of time on the history of intellectual culture in the USSR back when it was a hot issue. The academic environment in the West today is giving me intense deja vu. Scholars are promoted/demoted based on their social origins. Scientific fact-finding is ruled to be subservient to the upholding of ideological truths. We face constant exhortation to adhere to correct thinking and be intolerant of those who don't.
I spent a lot of time on the history of intellectual culture in the USSR back when it was a hot issue. The academic environment in the West today is giving me intense deja vu. Scholars are promoted/demoted based on their social origins. Scientific fact-finding is ruled to be subservient to the upholding of ideological truths. We face constant exhortation to adhere to correct thinking and be intolerant of those who don't.
I unironically believe that the emergence of "political correctness" in America in the 1960s-1980s and it's disappearance as a political force in 1991 and its reemergence as "social justice" in 2012 both stem from "active measures" originating with the KGB/FSB.
See this interview from 1998 ( https://web.archive.org/web/20070627183623/http://www3.cnn.c... ):
"On the other hand -- and this is the other side of the Soviet intelligence, very important: perhaps I would describe it as the heart and soul of the Soviet intelligence -- was subversion. Not intelligence collection, but subversion: active measures to weaken the West, to drive wedges in the Western community alliances of all sorts, particularly NATO, to sow discord among allies, to weaken the United States in the eyes of the people of Europe, Asia, Africa, Latin America, and thus to prepare ground in case the war really occurs. To make America more vulnerable to the anger and distrust of other peoples.
"In that sense, the Soviet intelligence [was] really unparalleled. ... The [KGB] programs -- which would run all sorts of congresses, peace congresses, youth congresses, festivals, women's movements, trade union movements, campaigns against U.S. missiles in Europe, campaigns against neutron weapons, allegations that AIDS ... was invented by the CIA ... all sorts of forgeries and faked material -- [were] targeted at politicians, the academic community, at [the] public at large. ...
"It was really a worldwide campaign, often not only sponsored and funded, but conducted and manipulated by the KGB. And this was again part and parcel of this campaign to weaken [the] military, economic and psychological climate in the West."
The description of movements funded basically fit the entirety of the New Left coalition of the 60s-80s and the current politics of the Extremely Online set typically found on places like reddit, tumblr, 4chan, and twitter.
Given what's been released of the Mitrokhin archive ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitrokhin_Archive ), the Mueller report re: "Russian troll farms" (e.g. the Internet Research Agency), social media disinformation campaigns (e.g. https://help.tumblr.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002280214 ) and pre-Putin-takeover transparency of ex-KGB officers, I don't think it's farfetched to say that Russia and the FSB currently have the means, methods, and motivation to inject any and all corrosive ideologies and misinformation possible in order to paralyze and disintegrate American society.
The Mitrokhin archive (allegedly) and other extant primary aources contains blueprints for these kinds of active measures, including inciting a race war in the US by blowing up a historically Black college and blaming it on right wing militias (Operation PANDORA) and using Soviet media fronts to claim AIDs was made in American-funded biolabs (INFEKTION or VÖRWARTS II):
"We are conducting a series of [active] measures in connection with the appearance in recent years in the USA of a new and dangerous disease, "Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome – AIDS"…, and its subsequent, large-scale spread to other countries, including those in Western Europe. The goal of these measures is to create a favorable opinion for us abroad that this disease is the result of secret experiments with a new type of biological weapon by the secret services of the USA and the Pentagon that spun out of control."
This isn't to say that it's impossible that the last decade in America has all been the fruits of American miseducation and inherent civil contradictions coming home to roost, but Occam's Razor and available evidence suggest otherwise--that the Russians currently and historically fund, sow, and amplify any division whatsoever in America that leads to disintegrating social fabric and institutional decline.
See this interview from 1998 ( https://web.archive.org/web/20070627183623/http://www3.cnn.c... ):
"On the other hand -- and this is the other side of the Soviet intelligence, very important: perhaps I would describe it as the heart and soul of the Soviet intelligence -- was subversion. Not intelligence collection, but subversion: active measures to weaken the West, to drive wedges in the Western community alliances of all sorts, particularly NATO, to sow discord among allies, to weaken the United States in the eyes of the people of Europe, Asia, Africa, Latin America, and thus to prepare ground in case the war really occurs. To make America more vulnerable to the anger and distrust of other peoples.
"In that sense, the Soviet intelligence [was] really unparalleled. ... The [KGB] programs -- which would run all sorts of congresses, peace congresses, youth congresses, festivals, women's movements, trade union movements, campaigns against U.S. missiles in Europe, campaigns against neutron weapons, allegations that AIDS ... was invented by the CIA ... all sorts of forgeries and faked material -- [were] targeted at politicians, the academic community, at [the] public at large. ...
"It was really a worldwide campaign, often not only sponsored and funded, but conducted and manipulated by the KGB. And this was again part and parcel of this campaign to weaken [the] military, economic and psychological climate in the West."
The description of movements funded basically fit the entirety of the New Left coalition of the 60s-80s and the current politics of the Extremely Online set typically found on places like reddit, tumblr, 4chan, and twitter.
Given what's been released of the Mitrokhin archive ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitrokhin_Archive ), the Mueller report re: "Russian troll farms" (e.g. the Internet Research Agency), social media disinformation campaigns (e.g. https://help.tumblr.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002280214 ) and pre-Putin-takeover transparency of ex-KGB officers, I don't think it's farfetched to say that Russia and the FSB currently have the means, methods, and motivation to inject any and all corrosive ideologies and misinformation possible in order to paralyze and disintegrate American society.
The Mitrokhin archive (allegedly) and other extant primary aources contains blueprints for these kinds of active measures, including inciting a race war in the US by blowing up a historically Black college and blaming it on right wing militias (Operation PANDORA) and using Soviet media fronts to claim AIDs was made in American-funded biolabs (INFEKTION or VÖRWARTS II):
"We are conducting a series of [active] measures in connection with the appearance in recent years in the USA of a new and dangerous disease, "Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome – AIDS"…, and its subsequent, large-scale spread to other countries, including those in Western Europe. The goal of these measures is to create a favorable opinion for us abroad that this disease is the result of secret experiments with a new type of biological weapon by the secret services of the USA and the Pentagon that spun out of control."
This isn't to say that it's impossible that the last decade in America has all been the fruits of American miseducation and inherent civil contradictions coming home to roost, but Occam's Razor and available evidence suggest otherwise--that the Russians currently and historically fund, sow, and amplify any division whatsoever in America that leads to disintegrating social fabric and institutional decline.
Yes but communism is in and religion is out, so making that observation is also démodé.
Both are because it's significantly easier to control thought (especially when you're in power) than it is to fix the issues people are thinking about.
like most here I don't particularly agree with the main premise of the piece (objectivity taking a sideline to how something might affect a population), but I am a little saddened if not scared at how vitriolic some of the comments are here. there are many vulnerable populations in the world that might negatively be impacted by publications, to label even the thought of that as a factor in ethics as evil makes me uncomfortable
People see where this is going: treating facts as violence.
If nothing else, HN commenters are all pretty strongly for a culture of free speech, so yeah, they're gonna hate things that try to suppress scientific understanding in order to advance ideological goals. That's a thing worthy of hatred.
If nothing else, HN commenters are all pretty strongly for a culture of free speech, so yeah, they're gonna hate things that try to suppress scientific understanding in order to advance ideological goals. That's a thing worthy of hatred.
This is in Nature Human Behavior. This is a social science/psychology journal, a field which is suffering from the reproducibility crisis, perhaps worse than any other field. So, any result in this field should be viewed with significant skepticism. This is true for research into population group differences, and extremely true for IQ research into race, which is almost hopelessly noisy and confounded. It is a simple and obvious fact that population group differences in intelligence are noisy and confounded. In fact it is far stronger a fact than any of the actual results from this research.
Second, research results in population group differences are social poison. They are memetic viruses that fuel violent extremism. The murderer of 10 people in Buffalo directly cited human behavior research in his manifesto. Extremist racist groups regularly discuss this research. This is a fact.
So we have a dangerous combination: weak research that destroys societal bonds. This should be handled with care, and extra consideration should be given to whether the tenuous, fallible results from this research will result in violence.
This isn't fucking Orwell, its people trying to make sure that dogshit research in their journal doesnt get cited by mass shooters.
Second, research results in population group differences are social poison. They are memetic viruses that fuel violent extremism. The murderer of 10 people in Buffalo directly cited human behavior research in his manifesto. Extremist racist groups regularly discuss this research. This is a fact.
So we have a dangerous combination: weak research that destroys societal bonds. This should be handled with care, and extra consideration should be given to whether the tenuous, fallible results from this research will result in violence.
This isn't fucking Orwell, its people trying to make sure that dogshit research in their journal doesnt get cited by mass shooters.
IQ research is the one area in social sciences that does not suffer from reproducibility crisis. You're clearly not against it because of reproducibility; you are against it because it goes against your ideological worldview.
> Second, research results in population group differences are social poison. They are memetic viruses that fuel violent extremism.
We had a full summer of violent riots because of the "Black Lives Matter" ideology. Are we going to ban research that studies police treatment of different races too?
> Second, research results in population group differences are social poison. They are memetic viruses that fuel violent extremism.
We had a full summer of violent riots because of the "Black Lives Matter" ideology. Are we going to ban research that studies police treatment of different races too?
> IQ research is the one area in social sciences that does not suffer from reproducibility crisis.
This isn’t true. Areas like psychophysics have similar extremely high reliability. Economics did quite well compared to political science and sociology. Social psychology and personality psychology were and are unusually bad.
This isn’t true. Areas like psychophysics have similar extremely high reliability. Economics did quite well compared to political science and sociology. Social psychology and personality psychology were and are unusually bad.
irrational(2)
Serious question why would you need "studies" or "research to know thr police is racist.
That will just not help solving the problem
That will just not help solving the problem
You mentioned your question is serious. I'm assuming you want a serious answer. For others reading this: please assume positive intent for OP and my self. There is no need for flame wars.
Studies are important for police racism because: collecting data on who, when, and why can help us resolve the racism. To be specific, not all police are racist. A study could help identify who is more likely to be racist. Then we decide do we retrain these people or fire them or... something else. Meanwhile, we keep the other police or have them train the racist police.
Studies are important for police racism because: collecting data on who, when, and why can help us resolve the racism. To be specific, not all police are racist. A study could help identify who is more likely to be racist. Then we decide do we retrain these people or fire them or... something else. Meanwhile, we keep the other police or have them train the racist police.
Thanks for actually taking me seriously but I think you missed my point.
I understand what's the point of a study. I'm just saying there's probably no real need for a "study" to know which departement or service is racist. It's more a will to act and how that's lacking, not one more study. It's also because acting is not easy : when money is low you get 'not the best people' and they still have to do a hard job against criminals, so there's is also sort of a need to protect them when they make mistakes or when you know they won't change who they are, to still have SOME job done in the meantime.
life and people management isn't easy and, i don't think, solved by 'studies'
I understand what's the point of a study. I'm just saying there's probably no real need for a "study" to know which departement or service is racist. It's more a will to act and how that's lacking, not one more study. It's also because acting is not easy : when money is low you get 'not the best people' and they still have to do a hard job against criminals, so there's is also sort of a need to protect them when they make mistakes or when you know they won't change who they are, to still have SOME job done in the meantime.
life and people management isn't easy and, i don't think, solved by 'studies'
> You're clearly not against it because of reproducibility; you are against it because it goes against your ideological worldview.
Please avoid ad hominem arguments like this. They are unlikely to convince anyone, and on a topic as sensitive as this might be interpreted as personal attacks.
Your comment would have been more useful if you had restricted yourself to responding to GP's argument that the data is too noisy and confounded to draw serious conclusions.
Please avoid ad hominem arguments like this. They are unlikely to convince anyone, and on a topic as sensitive as this might be interpreted as personal attacks.
Your comment would have been more useful if you had restricted yourself to responding to GP's argument that the data is too noisy and confounded to draw serious conclusions.
That's not what an ad-hom attack is. An ad-hom would be insulting the poster they were replying to. This is at worst making an incorrect guess at their ideology, but more likely than not, it's a correct guess.
Hmm, no. Quoting Wikipedia [0], ad-hom "refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than addressing the substance of the argument itself. The most common form of ad hominem is "A makes a claim x, B asserts that A holds a property that is unwelcome, and hence B concludes that argument x is wrong". "
The person's ideology is precisely an "attribute of the person making an argument". The sentence I responded to basically states that "A is not making their argument because it's true, but because of A's unwelcome characteristic." This is pretty much textbook ad-hominem.
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
The person's ideology is precisely an "attribute of the person making an argument". The sentence I responded to basically states that "A is not making their argument because it's true, but because of A's unwelcome characteristic." This is pretty much textbook ad-hominem.
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
> This should be handled with care, and extra consideration should be given to whether the tenuous, fallible results from this research will result in violence.
What is "results in violence" though? One person's violence would be another person's justice.
I think trans activism with kids is a severe violence. Would research in allowing transgenderism for children be considered violence or not in your eyes? I'm sure there's people on both sides of the fence, so who would be the one to gatekeep?
Most transgender studies come from the same "reproducibility crisis" and largely the same branch of social/psychology science.
So to put in effect that "we are allowed to suppress science depending on who it affects" would be a bad precedent for when "the other side" gets in power.
Or do you not agree?
What is "results in violence" though? One person's violence would be another person's justice.
I think trans activism with kids is a severe violence. Would research in allowing transgenderism for children be considered violence or not in your eyes? I'm sure there's people on both sides of the fence, so who would be the one to gatekeep?
Most transgender studies come from the same "reproducibility crisis" and largely the same branch of social/psychology science.
So to put in effect that "we are allowed to suppress science depending on who it affects" would be a bad precedent for when "the other side" gets in power.
Or do you not agree?
> I think trans activism with kids is a severe violence.
You think trans activism is equivalent to shooting someone?
I mean, i think most people are going to dismiss you as crazy if you think words and ideas of any form are equivalently violent to shooting someone in the head. At the very least you would need to back up such a radical proposition with some very compelling arguments.
You think trans activism is equivalent to shooting someone?
I mean, i think most people are going to dismiss you as crazy if you think words and ideas of any form are equivalently violent to shooting someone in the head. At the very least you would need to back up such a radical proposition with some very compelling arguments.
Epic straw man. Is your counter argument so poor that you must resort to defeating a comically false version of what OP said? Where in the world does shooting someone in the head come in based on what OP said?!?
Context is a thing.
Person was responding to a comment that mentioned shooting, and proposing an alternate situation. One presumes they are claiming the alternate situation is equivalent or their comment makes no sense as a response to the previous comment they were replying to.
Person was responding to a comment that mentioned shooting, and proposing an alternate situation. One presumes they are claiming the alternate situation is equivalent or their comment makes no sense as a response to the previous comment they were replying to.
You are mistaken or on the wrong comment chain.
While we're listing informal fallacies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation
>> I think trans activism with kids is a severe violence.
>You think trans activism is equivalent to shooting someone?
You missed a pretty important word there.
>You think trans activism is equivalent to shooting someone?
You missed a pretty important word there.
Then perhaps you should be a little less materialist? Psychological violence can be more terrible than physical violence.
And ideologies caused more damages and deaths in history than any conventional "war".
And ideologies caused more damages and deaths in history than any conventional "war".
Yes,in extreme cases psychological abuse can be worse than physical violence, but you kind of need to back up what you're talking about is such a case *.
Its sort of like if you said, beans are just as bad as being shot, then later clarified that you are talking about fatal food poisioning from bad beans. I mean, i guess technically fatal food poisioning is about as bad as being shot, but if you just say "beans are like being shot" without qualification, people are going to think that's a crazy statement, because it is.
* to be clear im talking hypothetically. I don't agree that "trans-activism" (whatever the fuck that means) is violence in any way shape or form.
Its sort of like if you said, beans are just as bad as being shot, then later clarified that you are talking about fatal food poisioning from bad beans. I mean, i guess technically fatal food poisioning is about as bad as being shot, but if you just say "beans are like being shot" without qualification, people are going to think that's a crazy statement, because it is.
* to be clear im talking hypothetically. I don't agree that "trans-activism" (whatever the fuck that means) is violence in any way shape or form.
Trans people are being systematically oppressed. New laws are being made to single them out and ban them from public life. Characterizing healthcare for trans people as "violence" is rather disgusting attempt to further marginalize them by denying them medical services.
The Conservative push to make trans people the new Boogeyman is absolutely wretched.
The Conservative push to make trans people the new Boogeyman is absolutely wretched.
I am really looking forward a trans revolution, with rainbow coloured flags and a trans-dictatorship to dominate the world...
... or maybe there is no ideology, but just people claiming some basic rights?
... or maybe there is no ideology, but just people claiming some basic rights?
> Most transgender studies come from the same "reproducibility crisis" and largely the same branch of social/psychology science.
No, this is wrong. A lot of the research into trans healthcare comes from endocrinology, not psychology. Psychologists are not prescribing meds or performing surgery.
No, this is wrong. A lot of the research into trans healthcare comes from endocrinology, not psychology. Psychologists are not prescribing meds or performing surgery.
Well words like "transgenderism" don't even mean anything and are just far-right buzzwords to scare people like you, so consider first looking into what's informing your worldview. It's certainly not anything approaching objectivity
I can name a specific dogma of transgenderism: That gender is more than performing (like an actor on the stage) an arbitrary set of gender ideals.
Don't know where you get that idea, honestly. A lot of trans people certainly think that, but there is definitely no consensus within the trans community about the definition of gender. Personally I even subscribe more to performativity (mostly as described by Judith Butler) than any other theory. But also I don't care that much about gender philosophy.
My "transgenderism ideology" is quite simple: other people's gender or presentation is none of my business and everyone deserves the same basic human rights. If that's dogma, okay I guess
My "transgenderism ideology" is quite simple: other people's gender or presentation is none of my business and everyone deserves the same basic human rights. If that's dogma, okay I guess
Where i got my thought from: Whats the purpose of transitioning when you aren't performing your gender in the first place? There isn't much left them.
I assume you mean medical transition, since socially transitioning--such as by changing your name and pronouns--would generally be considered performing a gender even if that doesn't involve changing things like clothing and behaviours (e.g. cis tomboys and femboys exist and are performing the gender they were assigned at birth, just not in a typical way)
A short answer is impossible here, I think. But if you're genuinely interested I highly recommend this essay about medical transition: https://transwrites.world/have-we-got-it-wrong-on-dysphoria-...
A short answer is impossible here, I think. But if you're genuinely interested I highly recommend this essay about medical transition: https://transwrites.world/have-we-got-it-wrong-on-dysphoria-...
Next transgenderism dogma: Socially transitioning being a thing.
I don't believe that wearing specific clothes and demanding she/her pronouns from other people makes me less male than i happened to be. Or more female. Nor do i believe this applies for other people or sex swapped.
> just not in a typical way
We are in a post-enlightenment democracy. You can just do atypical things. And it doesn't make you more or less female or male or transitioning or anything like that. Not everything will fit into words, but that's the nature of things.
I don't believe that wearing specific clothes and demanding she/her pronouns from other people makes me less male than i happened to be. Or more female. Nor do i believe this applies for other people or sex swapped.
> just not in a typical way
We are in a post-enlightenment democracy. You can just do atypical things. And it doesn't make you more or less female or male or transitioning or anything like that. Not everything will fit into words, but that's the nature of things.
> You can just do atypical things. And it doesn't make you more or less female or male or transitioning or anything like that.
...yes
That's why I said cis tomboys are still girls and cis femboys are still boys (not sure what the enlightenment or democracy have to do with this discussion)
> I don't believe that wearing specific clothes and demanding she/her pronouns from other people makes me less male than i happened to be. Or more female. Nor do i believe this applies for other people or gender roles swapped.
I can see this discussion won't go anywhere if you're not willing to justify your beliefs, and if you're going to continue insisting that trans people are a monolith. And at the same time imply the tired and untrue claim that trans people deny biology (no one thinks swapping clothes changes your sex characteristics). When we say socially transitioning, we just mean performing gender in a different way, it's just being contrarion to say it's "not a thing", this is probably one of the few objectively true things about trans people.
And it's contradictory to claim that gender performativity is correct, and then later also claim that your performance of gender does not change your gender. Pick a side
...yes
That's why I said cis tomboys are still girls and cis femboys are still boys (not sure what the enlightenment or democracy have to do with this discussion)
> I don't believe that wearing specific clothes and demanding she/her pronouns from other people makes me less male than i happened to be. Or more female. Nor do i believe this applies for other people or gender roles swapped.
I can see this discussion won't go anywhere if you're not willing to justify your beliefs, and if you're going to continue insisting that trans people are a monolith. And at the same time imply the tired and untrue claim that trans people deny biology (no one thinks swapping clothes changes your sex characteristics). When we say socially transitioning, we just mean performing gender in a different way, it's just being contrarion to say it's "not a thing", this is probably one of the few objectively true things about trans people.
And it's contradictory to claim that gender performativity is correct, and then later also claim that your performance of gender does not change your gender. Pick a side
> Pick a side
I edited the post to show "sex" instead of "gender", assuming that confused you.
Feel free to insist on performing, neither of us two has to play by the rules of the other.
I edited the post to show "sex" instead of "gender", assuming that confused you.
Feel free to insist on performing, neither of us two has to play by the rules of the other.
> "trans activism with kids"
What does this even mean? Medical care?
What does this even mean? Medical care?
I guess promoting and using kids with psychological problems as icons for the ideology...
Bullying trans people and using them as a societal scapegoat is more of an "ideology" than just being trans.
[deleted]
what "ideology"?
Exactly. Anything novel is, by definition, risky. Therefore any and all research has the potential to harm people. What the article says is, that there is an apparently all-knowing group of people, who will decide, where an article lies on a scale between abstract algebra and direct calls to genocide in terms of its impact on people. Oh, and the same group of people is also directly interested in publishing (so they’ll have to let _some_ papers through) as well as being part of the scientific community preparing the papers. So a massive conflict of interest. What could possibly go wrong?
And don't forget, they are also extremely politically invested. Many sociologists get into the field explicitly to "fight racism" or what have you, and the vast majority of the field is very left-leaning.
Being trans is not novel. The recent scaremongering about trans people is what's new. Previously people being gay was the end of the world. Now that homosexuality is more acceptable bigots are focusing on trans people to use as a punching bag.
>I think trans activism with kids is a severe violence.
Have you ever occurred to you to consult a dictionary, to check the meaning of the word “violence”?
Have you ever occurred to you to consult a dictionary, to check the meaning of the word “violence”?
guelo(1)
Ah yes, because the best way to get groups to not spout misleading rhetoric is to unabashedly bias the publications in the other direction.
Giving validity to the claim that a particular perspective is being actively suppressed historically works out great in reducing that viewpoint...
Maybe they'd be better off restricting publishing to studies reproducing earlier results or meta-analysis, encouraging more rigorous standards without legitimately adding a bias.
But if this is genuinely about reducing racist or sexist misappropriation of research to legitimize those views, this is exactly the sort of measure that is going to backfire by giving the broad lack of supporting evidence for those positions a legitimate claim of explicit censorship.
It no longer matters if there are barely any reproducible results supporting their views, as pointing out that asymmetry is rendered an argument from silence in the face of active censorship.
This is a bad idea coming from a good place.
Giving validity to the claim that a particular perspective is being actively suppressed historically works out great in reducing that viewpoint...
Maybe they'd be better off restricting publishing to studies reproducing earlier results or meta-analysis, encouraging more rigorous standards without legitimately adding a bias.
But if this is genuinely about reducing racist or sexist misappropriation of research to legitimize those views, this is exactly the sort of measure that is going to backfire by giving the broad lack of supporting evidence for those positions a legitimate claim of explicit censorship.
It no longer matters if there are barely any reproducible results supporting their views, as pointing out that asymmetry is rendered an argument from silence in the face of active censorship.
This is a bad idea coming from a good place.
Extremists may use whatever they want to justify their means, but shody science can make people become radical, radicalized, and then extremists.
It's a gradual change that can be enabled by many things.
What the article says is not to make science, and especially the field in question, one of those triggers.
What the article says is not to make science, and especially the field in question, one of those triggers.
> but shody science can make people become radical
If Nature said they won't publish shoddy science nobody would have minded.
If Nature said they won't publish shoddy science nobody would have minded.
The Orwellian bit comes once the quality gates are in place and get subverted for political means.
But even if that doesn't happen, I disagree strongly. Extremism doesn't need scientific backing and never has. They'll take it if convenient, but they can quite easily justify their actions without it. Truth and critical thinking are the solution, not the cause.
But even if that doesn't happen, I disagree strongly. Extremism doesn't need scientific backing and never has. They'll take it if convenient, but they can quite easily justify their actions without it. Truth and critical thinking are the solution, not the cause.
Psychology has always been rife with political fanatics. Since its inception there have been loud cranks using pseudoscience for the express purpose of influencing social policy. It is still happening today. Just look at Joseph H. Manson.
My position is that the problem lies with the listener, not the speaker. I looked up Joseph H. Manson. At a glace that looks like exactly what OP was talking about.
Extremism doesn’t need scientific backing to exist but it does need scientific backing to make the center complacent.
The shooting was a good example but a better example is an extremist takeover of the government buoyed by a complacent public swindled by flimsy science. It’s happened before, it’ll happen again.
The shooting was a good example but a better example is an extremist takeover of the government buoyed by a complacent public swindled by flimsy science. It’s happened before, it’ll happen again.
Could you not argue that religious teaching should be suppressed since it often stands in opposition to fact, therefore is responsible for misinformation leading to violence? (and let's face it, that's probably pretty hard to argue against)
What’s wrong with suppressing religious “teaching”? Let me remind you that freedom of religion was mostly about freedom from religion.
Don't mistake me for a religious person. I think it's the bane of mankind. My point is that despite this, trying to ban it is counter productive.
Banning harmful behavior promoted by religion can be quite productive. Hate speech laws are one example. Barring religiously-affiliated institution from government money is another.
Rather than suppressing research, wouldn't a simple primer on "why the paper shouldn't be used for hate" suffice, similar to the warning label on a pack of cigarettes? (Unlike cigarettes which are universally harmful, it's unlikely these papers do any real harm to an educated reader. They are only harmful when used completely out-of-context by a moron.)
There is some grand irony that hate groups point to racial differences in "intelligence" specifically. I doubt the members of these groups are in the upper tail of the bell curve...
There is some grand irony that hate groups point to racial differences in "intelligence" specifically. I doubt the members of these groups are in the upper tail of the bell curve...
I read that this is the intention, so when some content that can be used for harm (in a discriminatory or racist way for example), authors should make all the needed considerations, including confounding factors, in their research and their paper.
For example, say someone publishes statistics about school grades and race, and, maybe unsurprisingly, black people in the US turn out to have lower average grades, what does that say about black people? Here lies the responsibility of the researcher to make it clear that the problem is social rather than genetical, either using statistical means to remove confounders, or by highlighting this when discussing the numbers. Actually unless the purpose of the research itself is to extract those social differences, why would you stratify your cohorts by race in the first place?
Even seemingly innocuous decisions, like stratifying (because, why not?, you have the data) may have consequences, or may hide biases, if they are not considered with care. Ask anybody doing ML how confounders are behind every corner in whatever messy human data you collect!
Then there are other topics which specifically look into, say, sex and brain composition etc. Those may be scientifically sound, but ethically more controversial. I am happy I don't work in that field...
For example, say someone publishes statistics about school grades and race, and, maybe unsurprisingly, black people in the US turn out to have lower average grades, what does that say about black people? Here lies the responsibility of the researcher to make it clear that the problem is social rather than genetical, either using statistical means to remove confounders, or by highlighting this when discussing the numbers. Actually unless the purpose of the research itself is to extract those social differences, why would you stratify your cohorts by race in the first place?
Even seemingly innocuous decisions, like stratifying (because, why not?, you have the data) may have consequences, or may hide biases, if they are not considered with care. Ask anybody doing ML how confounders are behind every corner in whatever messy human data you collect!
Then there are other topics which specifically look into, say, sex and brain composition etc. Those may be scientifically sound, but ethically more controversial. I am happy I don't work in that field...
I think it's equally dangerous to write off extremism as the product of stupid people.
Hitler certainly wasn't a dunce, for example.
Hitler certainly wasn't a dunce, for example.
How can you be sure any research won't result in violence? How do you establish whether a given piece of research/data will result in violence?
Is your basic operating model for this: "Never show any data that shows there are group differences, because it can be used by violent extremists"?
If that is your operating model, do you support getting rid of ANY data out there that shows differences between groups in ability/behavior, as it could result in violence? For instance, should we ban all public violent crime reporting, if that showed group differences, as it would be something used by those violent extremists you mention?
diu vivere tabula rasa!
Is your basic operating model for this: "Never show any data that shows there are group differences, because it can be used by violent extremists"?
If that is your operating model, do you support getting rid of ANY data out there that shows differences between groups in ability/behavior, as it could result in violence? For instance, should we ban all public violent crime reporting, if that showed group differences, as it would be something used by those violent extremists you mention?
diu vivere tabula rasa!
https://academic.oup.com/california-scholarship-online/book/...
> This chapter shows that the right wing's essentialized construct of the Jew as criminal in the Weimar period was translated into policy and action in Germany after 1933. Until 1938, when the Nazis unequivocally embraced the guiding principle that “The Jew is outside the law,” they often took pains to charge individual Jews with specific crimes, usually focusing on technical aspects of tax laws and currency-exchange regulations. On the one hand, they sought to exploit the racist agenda and traditional anti-Semitic stereotypes. On the other, they wanted to give the impression that the Nazi State was simply zealous in applying the letter of the law.
> This chapter shows that the right wing's essentialized construct of the Jew as criminal in the Weimar period was translated into policy and action in Germany after 1933. Until 1938, when the Nazis unequivocally embraced the guiding principle that “The Jew is outside the law,” they often took pains to charge individual Jews with specific crimes, usually focusing on technical aspects of tax laws and currency-exchange regulations. On the one hand, they sought to exploit the racist agenda and traditional anti-Semitic stereotypes. On the other, they wanted to give the impression that the Nazi State was simply zealous in applying the letter of the law.
If extremely sexist groups were discussing PCOS as proof of the inferiority of women, would it therefore be a good idea to assess all research involving ovaries and refuse to publish anything that made PCOS seem harmful?
In case you didn't know, like me:
Polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) is a hormonal disorder common among women of reproductive age.
Polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) is a hormonal disorder common among women of reproductive age.
It frustrates me how in many discussions people act as if certain controversial research is always obviously correct and objective science up against inherently anti-science people tearing it down. Not at all! Plenty of it is of science specifically known to be done badly, presented badly, in a field with regular systematic issues. If a field is regularly producing these inaccurate results with bad social side effects, it's not out of line to tell people in the field to pay more attention to these things.
If it is bad science then just reject it for being bad science. Don't reject it for not catering to your special interests group.
The study of racial differences is famous for being bad science.
Unless it can help improve treatments: https://nyulangone.org/news/popular-hypertension-drugs-linke...
This isn't an effort that the Right can use to proclaim racial superiority. Understand the difference?
So instead of debunking or raising the bar of research into race, gender, sex, and more we should just not have any research into it?
Isn't this just going to fuel that kind of "research" in other places but then stand uncontested?
Might sound good in a meeting but doubt this is the way to go...
Isn't this just going to fuel that kind of "research" in other places but then stand uncontested?
Might sound good in a meeting but doubt this is the way to go...
So hypothetically, say the reasearch is well founded, reproducible, gold standard, etc.
If you think it would be ok then, why are we talking about "dignity" when instead we could have the less controversial statement "science research must not be dogshit quality".
If you don't believe so, why are we talking about quality?
If you think it would be ok then, why are we talking about "dignity" when instead we could have the less controversial statement "science research must not be dogshit quality".
If you don't believe so, why are we talking about quality?
Bad people will use whatever they have at hand to justify their actions. If there wasn't a paper to discuss there would be something else. That being said it's a disaster how many people go into social sciences and waste their lives on useless research.
>Second, research results in population group differences are social poison. They are memetic viruses that fuel violent extremism. The murderer of 10 people in Buffalo directly cited human behavior research in his manifesto. Extremist racist groups regularly discuss this research. This is a fact.
I am unable to write something to argue against this point because it would lead to this account being banned. I am unable to publish a paper on Nature that argues against the common beleif of racial equality. I am unable to use most modern communication media to do any of these things.
Why do people resort to violence?
I am unable to write something to argue against this point because it would lead to this account being banned. I am unable to publish a paper on Nature that argues against the common beleif of racial equality. I am unable to use most modern communication media to do any of these things.
Why do people resort to violence?
> Second, research results in population group differences are social poison. They are memetic viruses that fuel violent extremism. The murderer of 10 people in Buffalo directly cited human behavior research in his manifesto. Extremist racist groups regularly discuss this research. This is a fact.
Am I paraphrasing correctly: "Some bad people react badly to research results in this field, so there should be no research in this field" ?
Am I paraphrasing correctly: "Some bad people react badly to research results in this field, so there should be no research in this field" ?
IQ tests are also unreliable by design. They might work once, but you get different results depending on the test subject was challenged by questions and problems of similar design.
Highlighting that fact would be helpful and expose such tests as nothing but maybe a rough estimate. Your education is probably more important for that than your capacity to solve problems.
Additionally those that focus on these numbers seem to not be the ones that score particularly well here. And in the end "science" that asserts it can determine intellectual capacity of a group is most likely wrong.
That said, you should NEVER censor yourself because someone could perhaps misinterpret your finding for their own perverted goals. That would undermine science itself and it isn't worth it.
> This isn't fucking Orwell, its people trying to make sure that dogshit research in their journal doesnt get cited by mass shooters.
This is the wrong approach.
Highlighting that fact would be helpful and expose such tests as nothing but maybe a rough estimate. Your education is probably more important for that than your capacity to solve problems.
Additionally those that focus on these numbers seem to not be the ones that score particularly well here. And in the end "science" that asserts it can determine intellectual capacity of a group is most likely wrong.
That said, you should NEVER censor yourself because someone could perhaps misinterpret your finding for their own perverted goals. That would undermine science itself and it isn't worth it.
> This isn't fucking Orwell, its people trying to make sure that dogshit research in their journal doesnt get cited by mass shooters.
This is the wrong approach.
> IQ tests are also unreliable by design.
I doubt that they are specifically designed to be unreliable.
I doubt that they are specifically designed to be unreliable.
Perhaps unreliable is the wrong description. There are significant limitations and these are generally acknowledged. You can do different IQ-Tests and you will notice a steady increase in your score over time, because you learn about the structure of problems they ask about.
Ideally IQ-Tests are systematically different that this would not apply but it isn't possible to create them this way. Your training about similar problems in the past will have significant influence on the score. That does not mean that your intellectual capacity is higher/lower to someone with a different score.
Another weakness is the focus on speed or solved problems per time unit. This is also just an estimate and to latest discoveries about intellectual capacity a very rough one. For example there is a corridor of a certain reading speed that correlates with intelligence. But especially at the upper end which also includes more or less average reading speed this correlation vanishes. Same is true with the comparatively easy problems of IQ-Tests.
The score might be an estimate, but as it I would call it an unreliable estimate. The limitations of them are intrinsic to the way they work.
Ideally IQ-Tests are systematically different that this would not apply but it isn't possible to create them this way. Your training about similar problems in the past will have significant influence on the score. That does not mean that your intellectual capacity is higher/lower to someone with a different score.
Another weakness is the focus on speed or solved problems per time unit. This is also just an estimate and to latest discoveries about intellectual capacity a very rough one. For example there is a corridor of a certain reading speed that correlates with intelligence. But especially at the upper end which also includes more or less average reading speed this correlation vanishes. Same is true with the comparatively easy problems of IQ-Tests.
The score might be an estimate, but as it I would call it an unreliable estimate. The limitations of them are intrinsic to the way they work.
They aren’t; it’s just that we don’t even know what IQ is, so measuring it is naturally questionable.
Now, imagine, real good research (Data-mining/AB-virtual-experiments) being done, with FG cooperate DBs containing the behaviour of almost all of western humanity. One can imagine the bombshells on which Google and Facebook (and others with acccess Palantir) are sitting quietly right now.
And while the racists and ideologists might use parts of the results to go at each others throats, the truth might even be more weird, turning humanity into a fully self aware grandfather clock, knowing what makes it tick, but unable to stop it.
The fact that Thiel just looked at it, and went full support of totalitarian decline, cause it can not be prevented anyway, gives you an idea on how total of a defeat through knowledge awaits in those DBs.
And while the racists and ideologists might use parts of the results to go at each others throats, the truth might even be more weird, turning humanity into a fully self aware grandfather clock, knowing what makes it tick, but unable to stop it.
The fact that Thiel just looked at it, and went full support of totalitarian decline, cause it can not be prevented anyway, gives you an idea on how total of a defeat through knowledge awaits in those DBs.
[deleted]
Good grief I can’t believe you are serious. Mass shootings almost never happen, and when they do they aren’t because of bad research. It’s almost comical that you believe extremists are scouring scientific journals to fuel their hatred.
Censorship has never worked, but oh don’t worry in this circumstance it will definitely work. Because reasons.
Censorship has never worked, but oh don’t worry in this circumstance it will definitely work. Because reasons.
I wonder if research into the frequency and severity of mass shootings would be permitted into the journal - or if it would be blocked because it might promote harm
Even if this was true what you are describing is impossible to predict. School shooter are not scientists and don't comprehend anything past basic stuff served to them by the media. Doing research with these condiderations in mind probably fuels extremism much more and makes people (justifiably) sceptical of science in general.
Sorry you feel that way, I prefer to trust the science.
Aunche(1)
This is just more of the same of what we have seen over the last few years. People claiming that science should somehow be filtered to not offend or to promote the "approved" agenda and goals.
And it's all nonsense. If the science (actual science, not the beaurocratic science we've seen of late) shows X, then I don't care how it can be interpreted. Release the data and let the conclusions be discussed, which will ultimately sprout more research and more data to clarify and guide the conclusions being drawn.
Otherwise, you're just picking and choosing what is considered science based one your own biases.
And it's all nonsense. If the science (actual science, not the beaurocratic science we've seen of late) shows X, then I don't care how it can be interpreted. Release the data and let the conclusions be discussed, which will ultimately sprout more research and more data to clarify and guide the conclusions being drawn.
Otherwise, you're just picking and choosing what is considered science based one your own biases.
Studies on heritable differences in intelligence are effectively banned in the West due to the overlap with genetics of ancestral continental populations, or what’s approximately known as race. Everyone who looks at the well-developed, consistently-replicated body of study here knows what is known and why it is politically unpalatable. East Asian countries do not have these self-imposed bans on scientific truth (these truths, anyway). They will do the research first, reap its rewards, and develop a permanent civilizational advantage. Designer babies are an irresistible competitive edge.
Ironic and sad, it’s precisely this research that could close today’s measured gaps.
Ironic and sad, it’s precisely this research that could close today’s measured gaps.
"I reject your reality and I substitute my own."
Truth does not respect the dignity and rights of all humans
"Science" that doesn't seek Truth is something else entirely
"Science" that doesn't seek Truth is something else entirely
> but may be harmed by its publication.
I can't think of a single piece of research for which this wouldn't apply.
I can't think of a single piece of research for which this wouldn't apply.
Who cares? Federally funded research is going to be open access now. Nature is trying to remind everyone it exists the same day it was made obsolete.
The peer reviewed journal has not scaled well. Instead of actually ensuring the validity and integrity of claims it merely acts as a middle man extracting wealth. There re better ways to get the same benefit in the 21st century. Maybe if they actually verified experimental data they would still have a use. But they don't do that.
The peer reviewed journal has not scaled well. Instead of actually ensuring the validity and integrity of claims it merely acts as a middle man extracting wealth. There re better ways to get the same benefit in the 21st century. Maybe if they actually verified experimental data they would still have a use. But they don't do that.
If something will be destroyed by the truth, perhaps it should be.
Almost charitably, how much confidence do we have that they will abide by these same principles when research showing a combination of intelligence and measurable personality or genetic traits put other collective groups at risk?
Their logic is that abstract ideas, which have been subject to criticism by credentialed intellectuals, cannot be held above the material interests of any human being, and especially beings who must be made more equal because of historic oppression. In this view, logic itself is an artifact of that oppression, and it forms a literal substrate of abuse that deprives people of having the material symbolic things that others do. Appeals to logic or principle cannot be given standing, because these are the literal barriers that confined beings in the first place. To bring change and justice, they cannot accept their enemy's rules of being accountable to logic, truth, principle, or anything that prevents their absolute overthrow of these oppressive systems and places them at the helm.
My argument against this anonymous central committee decree here is that it is a statement of principle by people who reject principles as a matter of principle. Arguing the internal logic of their points directly is to fatally underestimate the malevolence of the people behind them.
Their logic is that abstract ideas, which have been subject to criticism by credentialed intellectuals, cannot be held above the material interests of any human being, and especially beings who must be made more equal because of historic oppression. In this view, logic itself is an artifact of that oppression, and it forms a literal substrate of abuse that deprives people of having the material symbolic things that others do. Appeals to logic or principle cannot be given standing, because these are the literal barriers that confined beings in the first place. To bring change and justice, they cannot accept their enemy's rules of being accountable to logic, truth, principle, or anything that prevents their absolute overthrow of these oppressive systems and places them at the helm.
My argument against this anonymous central committee decree here is that it is a statement of principle by people who reject principles as a matter of principle. Arguing the internal logic of their points directly is to fatally underestimate the malevolence of the people behind them.
Hiding results is a good way to end up with people not trusting what you say. Truth should be paramount for science to flourish, even if the conclusions are not palatable.
Any dissent against the state religion shall not be tolerated.
This is so general that its either very obvious or nonsense. They should include examples of what they consider "harmful science".
That would defeat the purpose. The whole point is to have rules vague enough that they can be selectively applied whenever there's an angry mob on Twitter that has to be appeased, while still saying "hey, we're just following our policy".
Right. Like many commenters on this thread, people tend to pick apart these types of messages from these now-woke institutions from a logical perspective, which is a huge mistake. These are effectively religious tenets; they aren't issues of logic but issues of faith.
This article isn't ethics. It's ideology. It is not unethical to identify differences in various cultural, demographic, or organizational groups, or any others for that matter. It used to be called science. A prime example of this thinking is the media's treatment of the Monkey Pox risks. If the researchers and the media had had the courage to acknowledge that those most at risk were men indulging in gay sex, we'd likely have seen fewer cases and fewer lives disrupted. As a retiree, should we be "protected" from research that says active retirees who eat well live longer than their sedentary peers who live on beer and pizza? At the end of the day, it's time for people to quit hiding behind ideology and start dealing with reality. It's sorely needed.
Censorship rules are here.[1]
[1] https://www.nature.com/nature-portfolio/editorial-policies/e...
[1] https://www.nature.com/nature-portfolio/editorial-policies/e...
„If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts.“
This appears to be heterodox here, but this statement is nothing to be alarmed about. IRBs have been mandating this type of risk analysis for decades for the subjects of research, and it is barely a leap to start thinking about collateral damage as well.
[deleted]
This is repeating the history of AI research "safety":
1. Let us make sure our research makes the world better, not worse.
2. That's hard.
3. Instead, focus on race and gender as approved by Twitter.
4. Call (3) "safety".
5. Researchers previously focused on (1) rebrand to (3).
See the transition from (1) "safety/alignment" to (2) making sure that the prompt "doctor" generates images of women instead of just men.
People have a general sense that some science can cause harm. (See, the atom bomb.) Instead of thinking hard to prevent that, they run to "don't make Twitter angry about gender/race."
1. Let us make sure our research makes the world better, not worse.
2. That's hard.
3. Instead, focus on race and gender as approved by Twitter.
4. Call (3) "safety".
5. Researchers previously focused on (1) rebrand to (3).
See the transition from (1) "safety/alignment" to (2) making sure that the prompt "doctor" generates images of women instead of just men.
People have a general sense that some science can cause harm. (See, the atom bomb.) Instead of thinking hard to prevent that, they run to "don't make Twitter angry about gender/race."
Are they considering future humans?
I think of things like environmental damage which may not have greatly harmed anyone directly at the time but had devastating consequences to millions of people years or decades later.
I think of things like environmental damage which may not have greatly harmed anyone directly at the time but had devastating consequences to millions of people years or decades later.
- is it desirable for science be beneficial to people?
- if so, doesn't that judgement need to be made?
- in respect to whether or not to publish a paper or article, who should make the judgement as to whether the science is beneficial or not, if not the publisher?
I think if you're going to object to this, you need to do so on the substance of the guidelines. Otherwise you're just substituting your own editorial judgement for that of the publisher, in effect claiming the authority of what is fit to publish for yourself.
I think if you're going to object to this, you need to do so on the substance of the guidelines. Otherwise you're just substituting your own editorial judgement for that of the publisher, in effect claiming the authority of what is fit to publish for yourself.
> - is it desirable for science be beneficial to people?
No. This is like asking whether language is beneficial. It can be. And it can be harmful in the wrong hands. It can be used to inspire altruism or to promote genocide. Its benefit or harm depends on its use. Even the same word, "no," can be used positively or negatively. That isn't an argument against its availability, let alone its existence.
- if so, doesn't that judgement need to be made?
Yes, by those who decide what to do about it: philosophers, politicians, clergy, businesspeople, the public at large.
> in respect to whether or not to publish a paper or article, who should make the judgement as to whether the science is beneficial or not, if not the publisher?
No one should, least of all the publisher.
Take research about suicidal ideation among trans people. Should it be suppressed because it might appear to suggest that trans people are weak, or should it be promoted because it reveals structural inequality and systems of oppression? Those are political, social, philosophical questions that should have no bearing on publication.
No. This is like asking whether language is beneficial. It can be. And it can be harmful in the wrong hands. It can be used to inspire altruism or to promote genocide. Its benefit or harm depends on its use. Even the same word, "no," can be used positively or negatively. That isn't an argument against its availability, let alone its existence.
- if so, doesn't that judgement need to be made?
Yes, by those who decide what to do about it: philosophers, politicians, clergy, businesspeople, the public at large.
> in respect to whether or not to publish a paper or article, who should make the judgement as to whether the science is beneficial or not, if not the publisher?
No one should, least of all the publisher.
Take research about suicidal ideation among trans people. Should it be suppressed because it might appear to suggest that trans people are weak, or should it be promoted because it reveals structural inequality and systems of oppression? Those are political, social, philosophical questions that should have no bearing on publication.
>> - is it desirable for science be beneficial to people?
> No. This is like asking whether language is beneficial…
I don’t think you really answered my question. The question is just whether we want science to be beneficial, before any questions about how or whether that could be achieved.
I don’t think you really answered my question. The question is just whether we want science to be beneficial, before any questions about how or whether that could be achieved.
The dogmatic opposite view is that science need not respect anything but its' self-stated goal of maximizing the acquisition of knowledge.
Does anyone believe that there should be literally no boundaries to such an endeavor? Not saying that Nature's boundaries, as they've described them here, should be set in stone; they are certainly up for debate! But there's no debate that SOME legal/ethical boundaries to scientific research should exist.
Does anyone believe that there should be literally no boundaries to such an endeavor? Not saying that Nature's boundaries, as they've described them here, should be set in stone; they are certainly up for debate! But there's no debate that SOME legal/ethical boundaries to scientific research should exist.
I haven't even read it yet but this grates on me. Science is the method we use to figure out if something is true or false. It must do nothing else.
I think we are taking this wrong. Nature's real problem is that they get too many submissions and they need a way to weed them out. They will do that even by offending the cultural minority that prefers truth over ultimate political correctness (as if that can be even be achieved!).
But our problem is that Nature's loudspeakers are too loud, which ultimately benefits nobody. Researchers and the public should simply give more stock to other publications.
But our problem is that Nature's loudspeakers are too loud, which ultimately benefits nobody. Researchers and the public should simply give more stock to other publications.
Nowhere in the scientific method does this message fit.
There's science the method, then there's Science the institution.
scientists and Scientists both practitioners of something different.
scientists and Scientists both practitioners of something different.
> Science must respect
Science is abstract
Science is abstract
It's one thing - one correct and good thing - to specify an ethical framework that says all people are of equal intrinsic moral value, and therefore have equal rights as human beings. It's another incorrect and bad thing to deny reality and specify a factual framework that demands that all people be claimed to be scientifically indistinguishable, having no identifiable characteristics that differ along social groupings.
Point 1, that they can deny "Content that is premised upon the assumption of inherent biological, social, or cultural superiority or inferiority of one human group over another based on race, ethnicity, national or social origin, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, political or other beliefs, age, disease, (dis)ability, or other socially constructed or socially relevant groupings (hereafter referred to as socially constructed or socially relevant human groupings)." is pretty hard to disagree with. Such content is morally wrong and should not be published, can't we just agree to treat everyone with respect?
On the other hand, Point 2 is qualitatively different, in that rather than considering the immoral and subjective value judgements that may motivate some researchers, it calls into question the objective factual truths that some researchers are allowed to uncover: It says they can deny "Content that undermines — or could reasonably be perceived to undermine — the rights and dignities of an individual or human group on the basis of socially constructed or socially relevant human groupings." This is a prohibition on publishing facts that some people may abuse to justify their abhorrent moral position.
For example, as a tall Dutchman, it's a fact that I'm able to reach things on shelves that my shorter coworkers cannot reach without assistance. At our office, we have a few freakishly tall Dutch guys, and some shorter Hispanic women. If, hypothetically, you did a study of the time it takes us to dry and put away dishes in the break room, you'll observe that Thais needs to move a stepstool around to put away mugs on the top shelf, taking significantly more time, and that Dave and I can touch the ceiling flat-footed and need no such aid, so we Dutchmen can complete the task faster. To be very clear - that's a fact, not a value judgement! It should not be misconstrued to undermine the position that men have equal value to women, or to suggest that Hollanders deserve more rights than Columbians! That's ridiculous and wrong!
It is unfortunate that there are some people with a morally abhorrent worldview who will seek to use factual differences to justify their cruel behavior. But prohibiting the dissemination of those facts does not make the fact disappear or become untrue, it only makes the prohibitors look foolish and makes the study of those differences the exclusive domain of the discriminatory people.
Point 1, that they can deny "Content that is premised upon the assumption of inherent biological, social, or cultural superiority or inferiority of one human group over another based on race, ethnicity, national or social origin, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, political or other beliefs, age, disease, (dis)ability, or other socially constructed or socially relevant groupings (hereafter referred to as socially constructed or socially relevant human groupings)." is pretty hard to disagree with. Such content is morally wrong and should not be published, can't we just agree to treat everyone with respect?
On the other hand, Point 2 is qualitatively different, in that rather than considering the immoral and subjective value judgements that may motivate some researchers, it calls into question the objective factual truths that some researchers are allowed to uncover: It says they can deny "Content that undermines — or could reasonably be perceived to undermine — the rights and dignities of an individual or human group on the basis of socially constructed or socially relevant human groupings." This is a prohibition on publishing facts that some people may abuse to justify their abhorrent moral position.
For example, as a tall Dutchman, it's a fact that I'm able to reach things on shelves that my shorter coworkers cannot reach without assistance. At our office, we have a few freakishly tall Dutch guys, and some shorter Hispanic women. If, hypothetically, you did a study of the time it takes us to dry and put away dishes in the break room, you'll observe that Thais needs to move a stepstool around to put away mugs on the top shelf, taking significantly more time, and that Dave and I can touch the ceiling flat-footed and need no such aid, so we Dutchmen can complete the task faster. To be very clear - that's a fact, not a value judgement! It should not be misconstrued to undermine the position that men have equal value to women, or to suggest that Hollanders deserve more rights than Columbians! That's ridiculous and wrong!
It is unfortunate that there are some people with a morally abhorrent worldview who will seek to use factual differences to justify their cruel behavior. But prohibiting the dissemination of those facts does not make the fact disappear or become untrue, it only makes the prohibitors look foolish and makes the study of those differences the exclusive domain of the discriminatory people.
Wow, this is the very first time an article on this topic has been written. Or, maybe I've never read anything about this topoic before.
I think that this topic should be repeated over and over and over again, everywhere, all the time. Just in case someone didn't get the message.
I think that this topic should be repeated over and over and over again, everywhere, all the time. Just in case someone didn't get the message.
Science must only be objective.
Science should not care one whit about humans or what we want/think/feel.
We should respect people, there's a huge difference.
As far as I'm concerned, this is the final nail in the coffin for nature magazine or whatever they call themselves now.
This entire blog post is them contradicting themselves repeatedly.
Science should not care one whit about humans or what we want/think/feel.
We should respect people, there's a huge difference.
As far as I'm concerned, this is the final nail in the coffin for nature magazine or whatever they call themselves now.
This entire blog post is them contradicting themselves repeatedly.
Science is only objective. But scientists are subjective and biased. The paper is not speaking about how people feel, they are speaking on the subjectiveness of scientists leading to the harm of minority people.
What do you think happened in Nazi Germany?
What do you think happened in Nazi Germany?
Politicians and populists pushed out false information, and then squashed anyone that tried to argue against the state as "radical", "harmful" and "against progress and science" at the point of a gun, refused to let people ask questions or have dissenting views which led them to the next step of being allowed to exterminate undesirables because no one was allowed to argue because "The Science was settled"
We could of course also talk about how the centralized control of the science of genetics in the Soviet Union led to mass famines that killed millions and anyone who disagreed was put to death.
It seems to me the problem isn't and never has been science, it is when a single institution, society, or government gets to dictate what "truth" is and "the science is settled" at the point of a gun, not that science gives us answers we don't like.
We could of course also talk about how the centralized control of the science of genetics in the Soviet Union led to mass famines that killed millions and anyone who disagreed was put to death.
It seems to me the problem isn't and never has been science, it is when a single institution, society, or government gets to dictate what "truth" is and "the science is settled" at the point of a gun, not that science gives us answers we don't like.
>Politicians and populists pushed out false information, and then squashed anyone that tried to argue against the state as "radical", "harmful" and "against progress and science"
I agree. This was a political problem which the article is actually trying to address.
> It seems to me the problem isn't and never has been science, it is when a single institution, society, or government gets to dictate what "truth" is...
This is not what the article is advocating.
This seems very rational to me, for example:
"Authors should use the terms sex (biological attribute) and gender (shaped by social and cultural circumstances) carefully in order to avoid confusing both terms. "
I agree. This was a political problem which the article is actually trying to address.
> It seems to me the problem isn't and never has been science, it is when a single institution, society, or government gets to dictate what "truth" is...
This is not what the article is advocating.
This seems very rational to me, for example:
"Authors should use the terms sex (biological attribute) and gender (shaped by social and cultural circumstances) carefully in order to avoid confusing both terms. "
Human-created science carries human biases and so does engineering and even math which is supposed to be pure and objective.
James Burke presented this idea really well in episode 10 of The Day The Universe Changed. Biases sneak in when you decide what you're studying, how you're studying it, how you collect data, how you interpret the data, etc.
The process itself might be unbiased, but that doesn't mean the application of that process is devoid of bias. Anyone remember the stanford prison experiment, the machine learning chatbot that 4chan turned to racism, or however many AIs people have designed that have looked at data and drawn racist conclusions?
Are these things racist because racial stereotypes are objective immutable facts, or because the bots don't understand the context of those stereotypes?
It's probably prudent to figure out the answer to that question before publishing. At least present a few hypotheses to explain the results.
James Burke presented this idea really well in episode 10 of The Day The Universe Changed. Biases sneak in when you decide what you're studying, how you're studying it, how you collect data, how you interpret the data, etc.
The process itself might be unbiased, but that doesn't mean the application of that process is devoid of bias. Anyone remember the stanford prison experiment, the machine learning chatbot that 4chan turned to racism, or however many AIs people have designed that have looked at data and drawn racist conclusions?
Are these things racist because racial stereotypes are objective immutable facts, or because the bots don't understand the context of those stereotypes?
It's probably prudent to figure out the answer to that question before publishing. At least present a few hypotheses to explain the results.
Certain lanes of inquiry that Nazi scientists engaged in were engaged in by many non-Nazi scientists. For example, craniometrics, despite it being now pretty conclusively shown to make no difference, was pursued as a science in both Germany and everywhere else. Just because its claims were untrue does not mean that those who honestly pursued it were not scientists. I mean, the hypothesis that head size affects brain size and thus intelligence makes intuitive sense. Those scientists who pursued such lines of inquiry and did so honestly and truthfully, and arrived at the proper conclusions based on the data (which many did), faithfully engaged in 'science'.
Of course, manipulating data for political ends is wrong, and using any evidence you collect to advocate for the slaughter or imprisonment of innocent people is also wrong, but these are philosophical, ethical, moral, and religious questions, not scientific ones.
There is a place for ethics in science... namely in the means in which one applies the scientific method (especially when experiments concern humans or animals). However, the data generated by the scientific method, if examined without bias, even if they're unpleasant, do not cause harm. The question of what to do with any unsavory facts is a question for ethics, philosophy, and religion.
Facts don't kill people. People do.
Of course, manipulating data for political ends is wrong, and using any evidence you collect to advocate for the slaughter or imprisonment of innocent people is also wrong, but these are philosophical, ethical, moral, and religious questions, not scientific ones.
There is a place for ethics in science... namely in the means in which one applies the scientific method (especially when experiments concern humans or animals). However, the data generated by the scientific method, if examined without bias, even if they're unpleasant, do not cause harm. The question of what to do with any unsavory facts is a question for ethics, philosophy, and religion.
Facts don't kill people. People do.
> But scientists are subjective and biased
Maybe, but how much does that matter? If the bias of these scientists is leading them to publish incorrect or low quality research, then Nature should reject it on the grounds that it's bad science. The fact that Nature feels the need to publish this is basically an admission that the political ideology of their leadership is not able to stand up to scientific scrutiny.
> What do you think happened in Nazi Germany?
Probably something a lot like this: Powerful institutions sacrificing objectivity to push propaganda and ideology
Maybe, but how much does that matter? If the bias of these scientists is leading them to publish incorrect or low quality research, then Nature should reject it on the grounds that it's bad science. The fact that Nature feels the need to publish this is basically an admission that the political ideology of their leadership is not able to stand up to scientific scrutiny.
> What do you think happened in Nazi Germany?
Probably something a lot like this: Powerful institutions sacrificing objectivity to push propaganda and ideology
[deleted]
But the article isn't saying "scientists should avoid being bias". It's saying "truthful findings that harm people should not be published".
This is the end of objectivism and a terrifying rise of subjectivism. Emotions, feelings, offense, sensitivities, racial background, gender, etc are now more important than nature, reality, rationality, logic, truth and facts.
While we're at it, why not protect the rights of non-human animals as well?
“Science is more than a body of knowledge. It is a way of thinking; a way of skeptically interrogating the universe with a fine understanding of human fallibility.
If we are not able to ask skeptical questions, to interrogate those who tell us that something is true, to be skeptical of those in authority, then, we are up for grabs for the next charlatan (political or religious) who comes rambling along.”
-- Carl Sagan
First thing that comes to mind. The Demon Haunted World changed my life but it seems like the one thing that got wrong isn't that external forces are a threat to "making progress via the scientific method to determine what is true" but science has instead been weaponized from within to push an agenda. This is much more terrifying to me.
If we are not able to ask skeptical questions, to interrogate those who tell us that something is true, to be skeptical of those in authority, then, we are up for grabs for the next charlatan (political or religious) who comes rambling along.”
-- Carl Sagan
First thing that comes to mind. The Demon Haunted World changed my life but it seems like the one thing that got wrong isn't that external forces are a threat to "making progress via the scientific method to determine what is true" but science has instead been weaponized from within to push an agenda. This is much more terrifying to me.
What problem is this solving? Are there a bunch of scientists who put random racist rants into the middle of papers? And if so, are these papers high enough scientific quality to publish in Nature, and therefore they need this new policy to prevent such publication?
The article makes it sound like the answers are "yes" and "yes"; but I'm skeptical. I suspect the answer is that there's no real problem here with racist rants and the like.
Instead, this seems like a blanket policy that helps keep research from going in directions that lead to uncomfortable (politically-incorrect) truths. That sounds bad for science.
Then again, I assume this will mostly apply to social sciences, which don't have much respect to lose.
The article makes it sound like the answers are "yes" and "yes"; but I'm skeptical. I suspect the answer is that there's no real problem here with racist rants and the like.
Instead, this seems like a blanket policy that helps keep research from going in directions that lead to uncomfortable (politically-incorrect) truths. That sounds bad for science.
Then again, I assume this will mostly apply to social sciences, which don't have much respect to lose.
Everything can be used to harm someone. Every knowledge can be taken out of context to bolster someones agenda.
So stop publishing anything because you can't prevent harming others inadvertently.
So stop publishing anything because you can't prevent harming others inadvertently.
[deleted]
This is a terrible direction for one of the most well-known scientific journals.
That said, despite how terrible it is, it is merely mirroring the status quo in most of our universities. It's hard to understate just how far academia has fallen over the last decade. It's been going this way slowly but surely for far longer than that, but now this type of view has well and truly taken over. Science should be about describing the world we live in, dealing in facts only.
I left for industry, which for now is much less affected, but HR and the like are full of it.
That said, despite how terrible it is, it is merely mirroring the status quo in most of our universities. It's hard to understate just how far academia has fallen over the last decade. It's been going this way slowly but surely for far longer than that, but now this type of view has well and truly taken over. Science should be about describing the world we live in, dealing in facts only.
I left for industry, which for now is much less affected, but HR and the like are full of it.
What no one will say is that even if most scientists oppose this, few will speak out for fear of professional repercussions.
That's the inevitable consequence of political centralization. Orwell wrote this back in 1944, but it still applies:
"Hitler can say that the Jews started the war, and if he survives that will become official history. He can’t say that two and two are five, because for the purposes of, say, ballistics they have to make four. But if the sort of world that I am afraid of arrives, a world of two or three great superstates which are unable to conquer one another, two and two could become five if the fuhrer wished it. That, so far as I can see, is the direction in which we are actually moving, though, of course, the process is reversible."
"Hitler can say that the Jews started the war, and if he survives that will become official history. He can’t say that two and two are five, because for the purposes of, say, ballistics they have to make four. But if the sort of world that I am afraid of arrives, a world of two or three great superstates which are unable to conquer one another, two and two could become five if the fuhrer wished it. That, so far as I can see, is the direction in which we are actually moving, though, of course, the process is reversible."
Things like this will not foster review/magazine based publications.
Well they are on their way down, this will just speed that up.
Well they are on their way down, this will just speed that up.
My read of the title: Science must respect the dignity and rights of humans that left propaganda favors
First define "dignity" and "rights", and reproduce them in a lab.
I thought this would be about e.g. building telescopes on Maunakea.
From the article:
Researchers are asked to carefully consider the potential implications (including inadvertent consequences) of research on human groups defined by attributes of race, ethnicity, national or social origin, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, political or other beliefs, age, disease, (dis)ability or other status
—-
Say there’s an article coming out clearly disproving racial differences. Will the researchers be “carefully considering the potential implications” of this finding on people with national-socialist persuasions?
It is after a finding negativity affecting a group of people defined by, and I quote “political or other belief”.
Or is it only the correct political beliefs that one must be “carefully considering the potential implications” of?
If that’s the case, can I please know who decides the correct political beliefs?
Researchers are asked to carefully consider the potential implications (including inadvertent consequences) of research on human groups defined by attributes of race, ethnicity, national or social origin, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, political or other beliefs, age, disease, (dis)ability or other status
—-
Say there’s an article coming out clearly disproving racial differences. Will the researchers be “carefully considering the potential implications” of this finding on people with national-socialist persuasions?
It is after a finding negativity affecting a group of people defined by, and I quote “political or other belief”.
Or is it only the correct political beliefs that one must be “carefully considering the potential implications” of?
If that’s the case, can I please know who decides the correct political beliefs?
basically, "scientists" choose which results to not published based on the fact that they don't like a specific sociological result
this causes more trouble for those groups because the truth doesn't get out about negative and under-performing behaviors, creating no avenue for improvements
this is just the new brand of racism and it's sold to you by wealthy, college-attending white girls who care nothing about the consequences of their own actions
this causes more trouble for those groups because the truth doesn't get out about negative and under-performing behaviors, creating no avenue for improvements
this is just the new brand of racism and it's sold to you by wealthy, college-attending white girls who care nothing about the consequences of their own actions
hashtag #nooneleftbehind appears to be in a similar vein.. "sovereignty" is so pre-modern </snark>
I haven't heard of this and doing a web search didn't really help me out. Can I read more about this somewhere?
"sovereignty" can be dated to 1648, the Treaty of Westphalia. Well before "modern" times.
Goodbye Science, you brought us a long way.
The degradation of the Academy should, by all logic, create an opening for a competitor. What is that competitor and what does it look like?
TL;DR:
Principle 1:
Researchers should be free to pursue lines of inquiry and the communication of knowledge and ideas without fear of repression or censorship.
All following principles:
Eh, on second thoughts, maybe not so much...
Principle 1:
Researchers should be free to pursue lines of inquiry and the communication of knowledge and ideas without fear of repression or censorship.
All following principles:
Eh, on second thoughts, maybe not so much...
Nature magazine existence is attacking my dignity. Now what?
I'm taking the proverbial piss, but their statement is completely absurd.
I'm taking the proverbial piss, but their statement is completely absurd.
A large section of the sciences has now been thoroughly captured by the social justice ideology.
science has only the interest of truth, anything else and it becomes ideology
FFS people are getting too weak and sensitive. I’m worried the pendulum may swing the other way and hard.
They could start by not using abusive design to manipulate users into accepting all cookies
It seems like many commenters here are not practicing scientists and may misunderstand the role that ethics frameworks, such as these, play in the process of scientific publication.
When conducting scientific experiments, a lot of care is taken to design them well before performing them. We do this to prevent basic mistakes, avoid pitfalls that previous researchers fell into, and be careful that readers of our work don't misconstrue or misinterpret results that we find.
If you develop a new drug to treat newly developed breast cancer and find out later that one of your recruited subjects has breast cancer that had metastasized from elsewhere (and is thus not new), should that patient be included or excluded from your study? This is a basic mistake that should have been avoided, but what's done is done and you need to decide what to do next with this individual.
Is it ethical to have that individual participate in the this research study? Their cancer history is not relevant for the study you're conducting, but are you depriving them of an opportunity to benefit from this new treatment if you exclude them? Are you depriving them of accessing more medically relevant treatments from other studies? What about the person with breast cancer who would have been included in this study if this person wasn't mistakenly selected? Are they not deprived of the opportunity to potentially benefit from this treatment if the first subject is not excluded?
Many ethics frameworks focus on those who _are_ involved in the study. These include things like:
- how was informed consent about risks and potential rewards obtained?
- how easy is it for the subject to withdraw from the study?
- what degree of discomfort or surgery will they be subjected to?
- should the study be restricted only to patients with terminal diseases, or others as well?
The guidelines from the linked article, however, focus on the ethics of individuals who _are not_ involved in research studies.
> However, these frameworks apply to research involving the participation of humans and do not generally consider the potential benefits and harms of research about humans who do not participate directly in the research. > Such research is typically exempt from ethics review.
If you're studying heart attacks but only recruit men in their 60s for your study, then you are not obtaining information about women of the same age bracket, even though they are also affected by this medical condition. If no research on heart attacks for women in their 60s is ever conducted, whatever treatments that are later produced to prevent or treat heart attacks that build on this research effectively exclude women, even if that was not the original intent of the study. The women not included in these studies also have dignity that requires ethical consideration when designing these scientific experiments.
These new guidelines add notes on considering sex and gender. These are obviously important considerations in journals like Nature Human Behaviour, where gender expression in societies, across cultures, and across times will be heavily studied.
These new guidelines also add notes on race and genetic ancestry. These are important for studying disease genetics, for example, where mutations in tumours from individuals of European ancestry look different from individuals of African or East Asian ancestry. These differences may result from environmental exposures where these people live (e.g. access to healthcare in poor or rich regions), societal events that affected some groups but not all (e.g. genocide, nuclear fallout), or differences originating long ago from their genetic ancestors of a specific ancestral region.
Not recruiting certain groups of people in these studies prevents future research from being funded that would be applicable to those same people. It also prevents confounding variables when comparing across populations. You can imagine that if only one type of data is available for a certain demographic compared to newer and more advanced data from another, that comparisons between those groups will be confounded and not fair to either group.
There are a lot of annoying checklist requirements that one has to go through for submitting a scientific article, but these are not them. There are good reasons to include these guidelines in scientific journals.
When conducting scientific experiments, a lot of care is taken to design them well before performing them. We do this to prevent basic mistakes, avoid pitfalls that previous researchers fell into, and be careful that readers of our work don't misconstrue or misinterpret results that we find.
If you develop a new drug to treat newly developed breast cancer and find out later that one of your recruited subjects has breast cancer that had metastasized from elsewhere (and is thus not new), should that patient be included or excluded from your study? This is a basic mistake that should have been avoided, but what's done is done and you need to decide what to do next with this individual.
Is it ethical to have that individual participate in the this research study? Their cancer history is not relevant for the study you're conducting, but are you depriving them of an opportunity to benefit from this new treatment if you exclude them? Are you depriving them of accessing more medically relevant treatments from other studies? What about the person with breast cancer who would have been included in this study if this person wasn't mistakenly selected? Are they not deprived of the opportunity to potentially benefit from this treatment if the first subject is not excluded?
Many ethics frameworks focus on those who _are_ involved in the study. These include things like:
- how was informed consent about risks and potential rewards obtained?
- how easy is it for the subject to withdraw from the study?
- what degree of discomfort or surgery will they be subjected to?
- should the study be restricted only to patients with terminal diseases, or others as well?
The guidelines from the linked article, however, focus on the ethics of individuals who _are not_ involved in research studies.
> However, these frameworks apply to research involving the participation of humans and do not generally consider the potential benefits and harms of research about humans who do not participate directly in the research. > Such research is typically exempt from ethics review.
If you're studying heart attacks but only recruit men in their 60s for your study, then you are not obtaining information about women of the same age bracket, even though they are also affected by this medical condition. If no research on heart attacks for women in their 60s is ever conducted, whatever treatments that are later produced to prevent or treat heart attacks that build on this research effectively exclude women, even if that was not the original intent of the study. The women not included in these studies also have dignity that requires ethical consideration when designing these scientific experiments.
These new guidelines add notes on considering sex and gender. These are obviously important considerations in journals like Nature Human Behaviour, where gender expression in societies, across cultures, and across times will be heavily studied.
These new guidelines also add notes on race and genetic ancestry. These are important for studying disease genetics, for example, where mutations in tumours from individuals of European ancestry look different from individuals of African or East Asian ancestry. These differences may result from environmental exposures where these people live (e.g. access to healthcare in poor or rich regions), societal events that affected some groups but not all (e.g. genocide, nuclear fallout), or differences originating long ago from their genetic ancestors of a specific ancestral region.
Not recruiting certain groups of people in these studies prevents future research from being funded that would be applicable to those same people. It also prevents confounding variables when comparing across populations. You can imagine that if only one type of data is available for a certain demographic compared to newer and more advanced data from another, that comparisons between those groups will be confounded and not fair to either group.
There are a lot of annoying checklist requirements that one has to go through for submitting a scientific article, but these are not them. There are good reasons to include these guidelines in scientific journals.
Yet, people can be harmed indirectly. For example, research may — inadvertently — stigmatize individuals or human groups. It may be discriminatory, racist, sexist, ableist or homophobic. It may provide justification for undermining the human rights of specific groups, simply because of their social characteristics. [..] Advancing knowledge and understanding is a fundamental public good. In some cases, however, potential harms to the populations studied may outweigh the benefit of publication.
"The teachings of the Church must not be undermined by heliocentrism or evolution research, so findings in those areas will be strictly filtered for heresy before publication.
But those findings that support the Church will be permitted, and loudly trumpeted as scientific proof of our dogma."
"The teachings of the Church must not be undermined by heliocentrism or evolution research, so findings in those areas will be strictly filtered for heresy before publication.
But those findings that support the Church will be permitted, and loudly trumpeted as scientific proof of our dogma."
Well connected - and I think this comparison is becoming more apt each passing day.
These statements and policies are just so… egotistical… for lack of a better word. What happens when we stop agreeing on what the “good” is? How can you claim to respect all humans when you don’t respect the human cognitive ability to disagree?
Thanks for posting.
These statements and policies are just so… egotistical… for lack of a better word. What happens when we stop agreeing on what the “good” is? How can you claim to respect all humans when you don’t respect the human cognitive ability to disagree?
Thanks for posting.
Exactly, the process of applying scientific results to human society falls well within the realm of politics. We should not allow scientific bureaucrats to have a say in the kinds of policies implemented, but rather limit their contribution to answering empirical questions based on inquiries presented by actual politicians.
Which minority making up 13% of the population ...
One can lie with facts quite easily.
It used to be that liberals could explain this. Somehow in the last 10 years the current crop of policy leaders decided this is too hard to explain so instead we would ban wrong think and everything will be hunky dory.
This has lead to such hilarious things as people publicly saying how thankful they are to have 4 jabs and getting covid: https://twitter.com/AlbertBourla/status/1559145992594784256 after saying the vaccines are 100% effective: https://twitter.com/AlbertBourla/status/1377618480527257606
One can lie with facts quite easily.
It used to be that liberals could explain this. Somehow in the last 10 years the current crop of policy leaders decided this is too hard to explain so instead we would ban wrong think and everything will be hunky dory.
This has lead to such hilarious things as people publicly saying how thankful they are to have 4 jabs and getting covid: https://twitter.com/AlbertBourla/status/1559145992594784256 after saying the vaccines are 100% effective: https://twitter.com/AlbertBourla/status/1377618480527257606
> What happens when we stop agreeing on what the “good” is?
Did we ever agree? I always felt like Democracy is some kind of status quo between the incompatible.
Did we ever agree? I always felt like Democracy is some kind of status quo between the incompatible.
In the 90s before mass internet adoption, it sure felt like it.
We had disagreements, but nothing compared to what we see today.
We had disagreements, but nothing compared to what we see today.
I wouldn't call being on the receiving end of racial slurs for dating outside your "race", being shunned for being queer, and other such things mere "disagreements". (This was me, as a teen, in the 90s).
It is really easy to romanticize the past, back when you were younger and just didn't have the same grasp of the world. Especially if you had a decent enough life at the time.
It is really easy to romanticize the past, back when you were younger and just didn't have the same grasp of the world. Especially if you had a decent enough life at the time.
That is true, but the difference between then and now is that, back then, it felt like the world was on an inexorable road to greater open-mindedness.
The world has made progress since you were a teen, but there is also an atmosphere of fear that the world is starting to backslide.
The world has made progress since you were a teen, but there is also an atmosphere of fear that the world is starting to backslide.
Jasper, TX?
I don't think this is true. I think a lot of people were insulated from information that created a perception for them that those disagreements didn't exist.
A lot of people are surprised to find out that people who don't live near them don't share their values.
A lot of people are surprised to find out that people who don't live near them don't share their values.
Oh, that was always true. It just wasn’t possible for those people to spend all day yelling at each other for it.
The context of the disagreements was largely limited to newspapers and politicians. Some assumption of professionalism, editing and journalistic integrity was included with nationwide dialogues.
The internet, Twitter, political amplification, bot amplification, media consolidation, etc have made it 1000x worse.
Before, you could disagree on a topic and go about your day. Now you are beaten over the head with every topic constantly to remind you how much you disagree with it.
The context of the disagreements was largely limited to newspapers and politicians. Some assumption of professionalism, editing and journalistic integrity was included with nationwide dialogues.
The internet, Twitter, political amplification, bot amplification, media consolidation, etc have made it 1000x worse.
Before, you could disagree on a topic and go about your day. Now you are beaten over the head with every topic constantly to remind you how much you disagree with it.
Some people could disagree on a topic and go about their day. That isn't true for everyone. One person's disagreement is another person's human rights.
A lot of people prefer the comfort of ignorance to the discomfort of that knowledge.
A lot of people prefer the comfort of ignorance to the discomfort of that knowledge.
And other people just pretend and seek attention, taking the tiniest discomfort and screeching “human rights! human rights!” left right and centre. All while every government institution and corporation bends over backwards to please them.
A lot of people prefer the comfort of ignorance to the discomfort of that knowledge and even more prefer the comfort of their self made moral high horse from which they chastise everyone they deem unfit.
A lot of people prefer the comfort of ignorance to the discomfort of that knowledge and even more prefer the comfort of their self made moral high horse from which they chastise everyone they deem unfit.
And other people prefer to incite people to better control them via polarization.
> I don't think this is true. I think a lot of people were insulated from information that created a perception for them that those disagreements didn't exist.
This is correct. The take away is something more along the lines of: when people don't know they disagree and therefore don't define themselves in terms of disagreement and further structure their lives around disagreement, they more readily work together; disagreements aren't attacks on personal branding/identity.
This is correct. The take away is something more along the lines of: when people don't know they disagree and therefore don't define themselves in terms of disagreement and further structure their lives around disagreement, they more readily work together; disagreements aren't attacks on personal branding/identity.
"A lot of people are surprised to find out that people who don't live near them don't share their values."
Maybe. I feel like those people might be living under a rock. With all the media today it seems unlikely that an individual isn't attacked on at least one belief. I know I see constant attacks on my beliefs.
The problem is that with fast transport, we are extending many laws to the larger geographic area (state or national level), which means increasing the size of the negatively affected groups since we are not homogeneous.
Edit: why disagree?
Maybe. I feel like those people might be living under a rock. With all the media today it seems unlikely that an individual isn't attacked on at least one belief. I know I see constant attacks on my beliefs.
The problem is that with fast transport, we are extending many laws to the larger geographic area (state or national level), which means increasing the size of the negatively affected groups since we are not homogeneous.
Edit: why disagree?
Everyone's gonna tell you this is fully explained by nostalgia and various cognitive biases, actually, cuz that's what we do hyea. But I'll back you all day. I know they literally can't hear it, but I always have the urge to tell Gen Y and later that for a minute in the mid-late 90's we had this shit mostly, not totally - that'll never happen - but mostly figured out. And then they blew it all up, and damned us all to hell. And they'll never, ever know that it happened.
> I know they literally can't hear it, but I always have the urge to tell Gen Y and later that for a minute in the mid-late 90's we had this shit mostly, not totally - that'll never happen - but mostly figured out.
I disagree. We didn't have it figured out - it just did not get on many folk's radar because of the differences in network effects prior to the internet. If you were a lonely kid in a farming town who wanted to dress and act like someone from the other biological gender you were shamed or shunned or cut-off. You were the weird one in your town. And that was something that everyone - EVERYONE - else in your town, no matter how empathic or sympathetic, would agree upon.
People who were "odd" just didn't know they could expect a better world. If you were coloured you just sucked up the jokes. If you were gay you hid - or you ran away to places where the network effects were more beneficial. You just dealt with it, and left the normal people to the belief that shit was figured out.
Except for us spectrum types - from about 1997 onwards EVERYONE wanted a piece of us.
I disagree. We didn't have it figured out - it just did not get on many folk's radar because of the differences in network effects prior to the internet. If you were a lonely kid in a farming town who wanted to dress and act like someone from the other biological gender you were shamed or shunned or cut-off. You were the weird one in your town. And that was something that everyone - EVERYONE - else in your town, no matter how empathic or sympathetic, would agree upon.
People who were "odd" just didn't know they could expect a better world. If you were coloured you just sucked up the jokes. If you were gay you hid - or you ran away to places where the network effects were more beneficial. You just dealt with it, and left the normal people to the belief that shit was figured out.
Except for us spectrum types - from about 1997 onwards EVERYONE wanted a piece of us.
Yes, outcasts used the internet to find and support each other online. And we noticed this great thing quite a while ago. But it seems only more recently did we also become aware of the other side... it similarly boosting toxic communities, isolated echo chambers, etc.
If someone wanted to, lets say, "make love with toasters", he'd be looked at weird and gotten over it in the days before the internet. Now he'll find supporting communities and guidance on how to do so...
So yeah, we didn't "have it figured out" and in many aspects, online communities do provide great benefit. But i wonder, if they still are, once all is added up.
If someone wanted to, lets say, "make love with toasters", he'd be looked at weird and gotten over it in the days before the internet. Now he'll find supporting communities and guidance on how to do so...
So yeah, we didn't "have it figured out" and in many aspects, online communities do provide great benefit. But i wonder, if they still are, once all is added up.
This post here is still engaging in armchair psych diagnosis. No behavior, regardless of what it is, is regarded as clinical pathology if it doesn't harm others or the individual.
Someone living a functional, happy, fulfilling life, while having sex with toasters as their main sexuality is a functional, happy person. There is no problem there.
Whereas someone doing this and say, neglecting other life functions, or injuring themselves, or reporting it as a compulsion they would like to stop, has now met the very base level criteria to be regarded as having a mental pathology.
But that's the bar: going through the DSM and matching symptoms doesn't make for a diagnosis if the symptoms don't cause the person unhappiness, or those who interact with them danger or harm.
Someone living a functional, happy, fulfilling life, while having sex with toasters as their main sexuality is a functional, happy person. There is no problem there.
Whereas someone doing this and say, neglecting other life functions, or injuring themselves, or reporting it as a compulsion they would like to stop, has now met the very base level criteria to be regarded as having a mental pathology.
But that's the bar: going through the DSM and matching symptoms doesn't make for a diagnosis if the symptoms don't cause the person unhappiness, or those who interact with them danger or harm.
>If someone wanted to, lets say, "make love with toasters"...
Dalibaner sighted
Dalibaner sighted
I would go further and say we actually do have quite a bit of hard evidence that societal disagreements were more civil several decades ago. Bipartisan legislation, violent threats against public figures, mass murders, and attempts to violently overthrow an election have all gotten objectively worse since the rise of the internet.
I don't know how much the internet has caused this deterioration, but it is strongly correlated.
I don't know how much the internet has caused this deterioration, but it is strongly correlated.
Just looking at the 90s to today is ignoring an awful lot of context about what political tensions in the US actually used to look like.
Just over 100 years ago, political disagreements in West Virginia over unionization led to a full-scale paramilitary battle at Blair Mountain [1], with upwards of 13,000 people involved and complete with the anti-unionization side bringing in private planes as improved bombers.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain
Just over 100 years ago, political disagreements in West Virginia over unionization led to a full-scale paramilitary battle at Blair Mountain [1], with upwards of 13,000 people involved and complete with the anti-unionization side bringing in private planes as improved bombers.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain
You say objectively, so where's your data? I must be very hard to measure pre-internet violent threats. I know someone who personally told me he'd kill George Bush if he had the chance. That won't be in your records, so how can you measure it?
The, uh, US civil war.
The Tulsa massacre.
Emmett Till
Murders have dropped every decade for the last five.
The Tulsa massacre.
Emmett Till
Murders have dropped every decade for the last five.
There were bombings almost every day in the US in the 1970’s.
We're not allowed to talk about those any more.
Which is a weird phenomenon in and of itself right?
The amount of political violence pre-internet is just an order of magnitude higher than today’s. Most young people (millennials, Gen Z) are completely unaware - unless you studied this stuff - that e.g. the Senate building was bombed in 1983 by a bunch of leftists upset over the US’s involvement in Lebanon.
This is to say, I’m skeptical of the argument that the internet has made things worse. Definitely not better, maybe not worse.
The amount of political violence pre-internet is just an order of magnitude higher than today’s. Most young people (millennials, Gen Z) are completely unaware - unless you studied this stuff - that e.g. the Senate building was bombed in 1983 by a bunch of leftists upset over the US’s involvement in Lebanon.
This is to say, I’m skeptical of the argument that the internet has made things worse. Definitely not better, maybe not worse.
I think it depends how you look at it. The intensity of the conflict has diminished, but I think the scope of the conflict has increased. There are fewer bombs going off, but there seems to be a lot more family estrangement due to political differences.
The partisan lines in my extended family haven't changed for as long as I can remember, but there are fewer get-togethers and more political arguments at the dinner table when they do happen. The aunt and uncle that once were my god parents have now stopped talking to my parents; nobody's political opinions changed but differences in opinion that were once barely worth mentioning are now considered actually evil.
The partisan lines in my extended family haven't changed for as long as I can remember, but there are fewer get-togethers and more political arguments at the dinner table when they do happen. The aunt and uncle that once were my god parents have now stopped talking to my parents; nobody's political opinions changed but differences in opinion that were once barely worth mentioning are now considered actually evil.
I think it depends on what's considered political. Family estrangement due to religious differences (such as marrying a catholic) was so commonplace it was practically a sitcom joke. There was also family estrangement about potentially dating outside your race.
Heh, my family is mixed Lutheran and Catholic, but that's not the line it split along. My mother and her sister are Lutheran, while their husbands are Catholics. I'm aware of this social schism only in the academic sense; it's not something I've ever personally seen or experienced.
These are people who more or less believe the same sort of thing, but disagree about which party will best implement it. It's a difference that used to not matter very much; my cousins were raised almost identically to me and my siblings. There is no real difference in social or economic class, lifestyle, or community. Simply partisan affiliation.
These are people who more or less believe the same sort of thing, but disagree about which party will best implement it. It's a difference that used to not matter very much; my cousins were raised almost identically to me and my siblings. There is no real difference in social or economic class, lifestyle, or community. Simply partisan affiliation.
I mostly agree with this. I think we can describe it as: vertical conflict has decreased (kinetic action up and down the political spectrum), while horizontal conflict has increased (passive action across the political spectrum). Things like actual assassination attempts against major figures in government (Justice Kavanaugh's assassination attempt notwithstanding) are not as common today as they were 40-50 years ago, while separation from peers for political reasons is much more common.
See also the pro-Puerto Rican independence terrorists who in the 1950s a) invaded the Capitol (!) to try to assassinate Congressmen, and b) invaded the temporary White House to try to assassinate Harry Truman (!!). Completely forgotten about in popular memory, despite their murdering law enforcement in the process.
> that e.g. the Senate building was bombed in 1983 by a bunch of leftists upset over the US’s involvement in Lebanon.
This has to be fascist propaganda because we know for a fact that Jan 6 was the first time the Capitol was ever attacked.
This has to be fascist propaganda because we know for a fact that Jan 6 was the first time the Capitol was ever attacked.
> societal disagreements were more civil several decades ago.
That's because white people violently killed, lynched, and massacred everyone that dared to cause "trouble" prior to the Civil Rights Movement.
That's because white people violently killed, lynched, and massacred everyone that dared to cause "trouble" prior to the Civil Rights Movement.
Humans are social in so far as they derive benefit from society. But they have always resented society to varying degrees.
In the past, people's resentment was mostly expressed in casual ways because a society tends to suppress crazy behaviour.
But the social media business profits from this social resentment.
In the past, people's resentment was mostly expressed in casual ways because a society tends to suppress crazy behaviour.
But the social media business profits from this social resentment.
Right, social media is the updated form of sensational headlines selling newspapers. And such headlines have always played on difference, resentment and moral values. And the more glaring and outrageous they are the more business profits from them.
This is a serious issue for society to resolve, especially given the clear evidence that many people cannot distinguish sensationalism from fact and are thus influenced by it.
Given the billions of dollars profit involved and the social media addiction problem it has to be one of the most intractable problems of our age to solve.
But solve it we must.
This is a serious issue for society to resolve, especially given the clear evidence that many people cannot distinguish sensationalism from fact and are thus influenced by it.
Given the billions of dollars profit involved and the social media addiction problem it has to be one of the most intractable problems of our age to solve.
But solve it we must.
> many people cannot distinguish sensationalism from fact and are thus influenced by it.
People are generally punished throughout their lives for being ignorant. But lack of comprehension is sometimes feigned. Some people test the tolerance of their behaviour.
The existence of propanda is at once a difficult problem and a profitable problem. There is no bright side to propaganda.
In cases where people are materially punished for their bad behaviour, they shut up and pay attention. I think it likely that future social-media business will require user accounts to have verified identities and users to accept responsibility by risking direct, personal financial loss for their behaviour.
People may call this tyranny, but in fact it's how society works despite their resentment.
People are generally punished throughout their lives for being ignorant. But lack of comprehension is sometimes feigned. Some people test the tolerance of their behaviour.
The existence of propanda is at once a difficult problem and a profitable problem. There is no bright side to propaganda.
In cases where people are materially punished for their bad behaviour, they shut up and pay attention. I think it likely that future social-media business will require user accounts to have verified identities and users to accept responsibility by risking direct, personal financial loss for their behaviour.
People may call this tyranny, but in fact it's how society works despite their resentment.
Exactly. That's better expressed and more comprehensive than my comment.
Bullshit.
In the 90s, it was just easier to remain in a comfortable bubble of ignorance of just how violently people disagreed.
Today, the reality of the discord is shoved in our faces every day.
In the 90s, it was just easier to remain in a comfortable bubble of ignorance of just how violently people disagreed.
Today, the reality of the discord is shoved in our faces every day.
> So instead how about this theory: the internet in general was pretty wealth-marked in 1998 (far more than we realized, with our American mythology of universal white suburban middle-classness and “global village” Internet mythology) BUT, of people who were more wealthy in 1998, the most likely to NOT have internalized upper-class practices were the grandfathers from the “Silent” or “Greatest” generations before the postwar “mass middle class”. Our parents were beavery professionals who settled into the suburban cocoon, we knew we were destined for glory (or at least selective colleges) from birth, but THEY were socialized into some pool hall, street gang, farmhand, enlisted man kinda culture where boldness of assertion counted more than patient derivation from shared principles.
> And if the Anglophone internet is ::gestures:: like this now maybe it’s cause it’s less of a professional-class preserve? The dividing line maybe being smartphones where “people on the internet” went from “people who specifically spend $X/mo on it as luxury” to “people with telephone service”? That’s a real possibility, that for all the “Global Village” stuff the wondrous effect of the ‘90s internet was to create a cultural space that was MORE gatekept by wealth and education.
> That’s… kind of depressing, though. “Haha you thought the world was getting better because you were eliminating elitist barriers but actually it’s cause you were making them higher, which is good because the poor and non-elite are disproportionately idiots with worthless ideas and to the extent they’re on top of things the thing they’re on top of is undermining the basis of a good society, and anyway those times were a phenomenon of a narrow early adopter base and you’ll never ever get them back unless you make the non-elite economically and politically irrelevant.”
> Depressing but very well precedented, that’s exactly the arc newsprint, radio, and TV followed before.
https://kontextmaschine.tumblr.com/post/185164859368/your-gr...
> And if the Anglophone internet is ::gestures:: like this now maybe it’s cause it’s less of a professional-class preserve? The dividing line maybe being smartphones where “people on the internet” went from “people who specifically spend $X/mo on it as luxury” to “people with telephone service”? That’s a real possibility, that for all the “Global Village” stuff the wondrous effect of the ‘90s internet was to create a cultural space that was MORE gatekept by wealth and education.
> That’s… kind of depressing, though. “Haha you thought the world was getting better because you were eliminating elitist barriers but actually it’s cause you were making them higher, which is good because the poor and non-elite are disproportionately idiots with worthless ideas and to the extent they’re on top of things the thing they’re on top of is undermining the basis of a good society, and anyway those times were a phenomenon of a narrow early adopter base and you’ll never ever get them back unless you make the non-elite economically and politically irrelevant.”
> Depressing but very well precedented, that’s exactly the arc newsprint, radio, and TV followed before.
https://kontextmaschine.tumblr.com/post/185164859368/your-gr...
People always say this. But I have a hard time believing things weren't more divisive, say, during The Vietnam War.
The internet makes conflicts more visible. It also attenuates them, so fewer people get killed. Physical conflict is transformed into digital conflict.
The internet makes conflicts more visible. It also attenuates them, so fewer people get killed. Physical conflict is transformed into digital conflict.
I’m specifically talking about the 90s and not all pre-internet time periods.
Cold War was over, Berlin Wall came down, Gulf War was over on almost the first day thanks to stealth technology. Comedy was at a high point, music was diverse and fun.
There was a lot more happy and a lot less angry in people.
Cold War was over, Berlin Wall came down, Gulf War was over on almost the first day thanks to stealth technology. Comedy was at a high point, music was diverse and fun.
There was a lot more happy and a lot less angry in people.
> Comedy was at a high point
It really was.
Speaking of which-- what ever happened to the guy who did the "women be shoppin'" Def Jam parody in the nutty professor? I remember he appeared on some talk shows at the time but it's as if he dropped off the face of the earth in the 2000s, 2010s and the past year.
Whoever he was, 90s comedy was surely the pinnacle by any measure I can think of.
It really was.
Speaking of which-- what ever happened to the guy who did the "women be shoppin'" Def Jam parody in the nutty professor? I remember he appeared on some talk shows at the time but it's as if he dropped off the face of the earth in the 2000s, 2010s and the past year.
Whoever he was, 90s comedy was surely the pinnacle by any measure I can think of.
Just because things seemed peaceful doesn't mean people were happy. See negative versus positive peace: https://www.visionofhumanity.org/defining-the-concept-of-pea...
[deleted]
No, I don’t think we did. I was thinking about this when I wrote it, too. That’s been the case in the past, present, and future.
Glad someone picked that out.
Glad someone picked that out.
No, there is no universal "good" otherwise wars would not occur. The American Civil War and WW2 are pretty classical examples of massive disagreements over the legitimacy of certain classes of humans. Had those wars not ended the way they did, black people would still be property, and Jews, Romani, and LGBT people would have been exterminated. There are still people who wish that we lived in that alternative history. Democracy is always a compromise, and when that breaks down, you get wars.
> black people would still be property
Not likely. Slavery had already disappeared in the Northern states due to its inefficiency and internal contradictions. Secession was an attempt to prop up slavery by isolating it economically. It was never going to work.
Slavery as an institution disappeared in other countries around the same time.
It was free markets that destroyed slavery, as slavery simply could not compete with free labor, and slavery was incompatible with industrialization.
In the South, by 1860, the only industry where slavery was still profitable was cotton, and that was coming unglued.
Not likely. Slavery had already disappeared in the Northern states due to its inefficiency and internal contradictions. Secession was an attempt to prop up slavery by isolating it economically. It was never going to work.
Slavery as an institution disappeared in other countries around the same time.
It was free markets that destroyed slavery, as slavery simply could not compete with free labor, and slavery was incompatible with industrialization.
In the South, by 1860, the only industry where slavery was still profitable was cotton, and that was coming unglued.
> slavery was incompatible with industrialization.
From what I understand, early industrialization gave a temporary boost to slavery. The cotton gin and textile factories greatly increased demand for cotton at a time when industrialization had not yet addressed the harvesting of cotton in the fields.
From what I understand, early industrialization gave a temporary boost to slavery. The cotton gin and textile factories greatly increased demand for cotton at a time when industrialization had not yet addressed the harvesting of cotton in the fields.
The cotton gin did indeed revive slave produced cotton when it came out. But it was hardly industrialization. It was a hand cranked box. But that was not enough by mid century, and the slave economy was foundering again.
Eli Whitney's patent depicts a hand-cranked cotton gin, but I believe by the mid 19th century they were making much larger cotton gins powered by water wheels or animal power (e.g. four mules walking around a shaft.) And on the cotton consumption side of the industry, mechanized thread spinning and power looms were by then a mature technology. The industrialization of textile industry began in the 1700s, particularly in the UK where they imported huge quantities of southern cotton.
The textile industry was being industrialized - but it wasn't being operated by slaves. An educated workforce is needed to operate industrial machinery, and it was illegal to teach slaves to read.
Industrialization and slavery are incompatible.
Forced labor has never been able to compete with free labor.
Industrialization and slavery are incompatible.
Forced labor has never been able to compete with free labor.
I guess my point is that industrialization doesn't/didn't occur uniformly across entire industries; some aspects of industries were mechanized before others, temporarily increasing demand for manual labor in the per-industrialized segments to keep up with the machines. Textile factories create demand for field workers, steel mills and steam engines create demand for coal miners, railways create demand for workers that lay rail, etc.
Another example, in an alternate timeline perhaps, might have been the development of the western territories. Instead of Chinese immigrants building most of the rail, it probably could have been a very profitable venture for slave owners. Slave labor was used for railway construction in the south, so it's not far-fetched.
I agree that slavery was destined to lose in the end, but I don't think industrialization is a direct path to the economic obsolescence of slavery, because slave labor can compliment partial industrialization.
Another example, in an alternate timeline perhaps, might have been the development of the western territories. Instead of Chinese immigrants building most of the rail, it probably could have been a very profitable venture for slave owners. Slave labor was used for railway construction in the south, so it's not far-fetched.
I agree that slavery was destined to lose in the end, but I don't think industrialization is a direct path to the economic obsolescence of slavery, because slave labor can compliment partial industrialization.
I seriously doubt slaves would have been profitable for the western railway. Blasting tunnels was very skilled work, and very dangerous. Would you want slaves, who hated your guts, handling nitroglycerin? You'd need as many armed guards as slaves.
Presumably the blasting itself could have been done by specialist free men. But the blasting itself is only a small part of the process. First you need to drill the holes by hand, that means beating a rock drill with a hammer for hours, just for a single hole, and you need dozens of holes for one blast, countless thousands if you're trying to go through a mountain.
There were steam powered machines for drilling rock at this time, but they were cumbersome and temperamental, most of the drilling was still done by hand. Hence the folklore of John Henry racing a power drill to see who could work faster. I believe most of the drilling in the west was done by hand, by Chinese immigrants.
Then there is the matter of the rubble. Explosives only break the rock, who hauls that broken rock? That's more manual labor.
There were steam powered machines for drilling rock at this time, but they were cumbersome and temperamental, most of the drilling was still done by hand. Hence the folklore of John Henry racing a power drill to see who could work faster. I believe most of the drilling in the west was done by hand, by Chinese immigrants.
Then there is the matter of the rubble. Explosives only break the rock, who hauls that broken rock? That's more manual labor.
You are conflating object and subject... the thing and its perception. Good can exist even as we disagree over its definition. Some people are simply right, and some are simply wrong. We are not gods.
One small note: LGBT people can not be exterminated in the same sense as other minorities, since new LGBT people will always born, regardless of how many of us would be exterminated, up to and including 100%.
Cold comfort to those of us who didn't survive.
Q: What happens when we stop agreeing on what the “good” is?
A. I am right and you are evil. Age old conflict resolution method.
A. I am right and you are evil. Age old conflict resolution method.
A sword fight doesn’t determine who’s right, just who’s left.
"Stop quoting laws, we carry swords" - Pompey
(Who was later stabbed to death.)
(Who was later stabbed to death.)
"Good" is not well-defined so let’s rephrase it as "interests".
People with the same ideologies flocks together. So when conflict of interest happens, each flock believes that
> "We" are good and "they" are evil. > "We" are right and "they" are wrong.
People with the same ideologies flocks together. So when conflict of interest happens, each flock believes that
> "We" are good and "they" are evil. > "We" are right and "they" are wrong.
As mentioned elsewhere here, good cannot be reduced into simpler terms. You're correct, we must refer to specifics.
He with the biggest gun wins.
Now I'm not exactly sure why the side which is currently stoking the culture war is also the one that's disarmed itself, but here we are.
Now I'm not exactly sure why the side which is currently stoking the culture war is also the one that's disarmed itself, but here we are.
I’m curious, I genuinely dont know what sides you’re talking about. Who do you think is stoking the culture war?
[deleted]
Those repeating the mantra.
I see folks across the political spectrum all repeating different mantras.
Who are you referring to?
Who are you referring to?
Which side is currently trying to make science fit their world view?
I'm still not sure what you're trying to say. My first guess is that climate change deniers are the biggest culprits of trying to make science fit a contradictory world view, and my second guess would be anti-vaccine advocates.
Yes, anti-nuclear activists and supporters of MRNA treatments are indeed two very dangerous factions of the anti-science crowd.
Unfortunately it's not only limited to the left wing of the political spectrum.
Unfortunately it's not only limited to the left wing of the political spectrum.
> What happens when we stop agreeing on what the “good” is?
"We" always agree on what the good is. If YOU don't agree, well, we'll have to sort that out, won't we?
"We" always agree on what the good is. If YOU don't agree, well, we'll have to sort that out, won't we?
In philosophy good is known as a simple notion, that is it cannot be reduced further. We cannot define its length, breadth etc., even adding very or little to it doesn't put a measure on it. Saying '0.5' or '10%' of good is essentially meaningless.
Good and bad, etc. are metaphysical constructs and thus we have a fundamental problem when using these terms in connection with Science which intrinsically and inextricability measurement-driven.
We need to be very careful using these terms when we're referring to or discussing Science and scientific research or conflict will be inevitable.
Good and bad, etc. are metaphysical constructs and thus we have a fundamental problem when using these terms in connection with Science which intrinsically and inextricability measurement-driven.
We need to be very careful using these terms when we're referring to or discussing Science and scientific research or conflict will be inevitable.
> In philosophy good is known as a simple notion, that is it cannot be reduced further
That is the position of some philosophers – it is G. E. Moore's famous doctrine that the good is simple, undefinable, irreducible to anything non-ethical – which Moore defended through his "open question argument", a staple of undergraduate introductory courses on the philosophy of ethics. However, it is worth pointing out that far from all philosophers agree with that position–indeed, my armchair impression is that, in contemporary academic philosophy, objectors to Moore's position outnumber his supporters.
> Saying '0.5' or '10%' of good is essentially meaningless.
That's another topic of philosophical dispute. Many classical utilitarians were quite convinced it was meaningful to speak in that way – hence Jeremy Bentham's felicific calculus. I believe that approach has few supporters in contemporary philosophy – but, while there is widespread agreement it is a failure, there is far less agreement on exactly why. And, Bentham's felicific calculus is not entirely dead – outside of philosophy, it is the direct intellectual ancestor of the economist's utility function.
That is the position of some philosophers – it is G. E. Moore's famous doctrine that the good is simple, undefinable, irreducible to anything non-ethical – which Moore defended through his "open question argument", a staple of undergraduate introductory courses on the philosophy of ethics. However, it is worth pointing out that far from all philosophers agree with that position–indeed, my armchair impression is that, in contemporary academic philosophy, objectors to Moore's position outnumber his supporters.
> Saying '0.5' or '10%' of good is essentially meaningless.
That's another topic of philosophical dispute. Many classical utilitarians were quite convinced it was meaningful to speak in that way – hence Jeremy Bentham's felicific calculus. I believe that approach has few supporters in contemporary philosophy – but, while there is widespread agreement it is a failure, there is far less agreement on exactly why. And, Bentham's felicific calculus is not entirely dead – outside of philosophy, it is the direct intellectual ancestor of the economist's utility function.
Having been brought up on G.E. Moore's Principia Ethica not to mention the work of Russell and Whitehead I'd have to say what I said as a first-pass comment.
However I agree with you, things are never quite as simple as they seem when one grinds them fine, also time and ideas move on. In discussions such as this I like to use the analogy of Newton's Laws of Motion which after hundreds of years still work well for 'everyday' use but they're all but useless in other endeavors such as our phones' GPS - to get there we had to progress through Lagrangian and Hamiltonian mechanics to Relativity over several hundred years. The same applies to philosophy and philosophical argument and it's why I find it so interesting.
As you're aware, like other disciplines, philosophy is built on earlier work - from the Ancient Greeks through Descartes, Hobbes, Locke, Hume and so on, so it's not unreasonable to expect philosophy to have moved on from G.E. Moore's time. Nevertheless, I had to start somewhere and Moore's points are reasonably relevant.
In the light of modern-day thinking it's not unreasonable to examine Bentham's and Mills' ideas and philosophers should continue to do this no matter the era they're working in. That said, it's not a matter of discarding old ideas but that of refinement.
we cannot deprecate utilitarianism ideas without taking into account what they have contributed to both philosophy and to the world in a practical sense - as clearly all modern cities incorporate utilitarian principles to varying degrees. If we are to deprecate them then we must give explicit arguments for doing so. As you correctly point out we should question Bentham's felicific calculus and similarly I'd add to that the then notion of measuring 'happiness' in units of utiles and 'unhappiness' in even less familiar disutiles.
It made sense to use these calculi in Bentham's time. Then the conceptual framework encapsulating the notion of utility would have been better understood and appeared more useful if there were ways to measure the effectiveness of its outcomes. Nowadays we've moved on for reasons too complex to discuss here and I won't mention them as they will be familiar to you.
Anyone who would insist in trying to do quantitative measurements in this now-simplistic and anachronistic framework would seen a little daft. So quo vadis? Let's look at a parallel: physics has moved on from the Newton's comparatively simple notion of force to the more sophisticated useful concepts of energy and momentum, similarly so too has philosophy but unlike physics, it has yet to come to any widely accepted conclusions in this particular matter.
I believe Bentham and Mills were on the right track however, they were bedeviled in their efforts (as we still are) to 'quantify' abstract notions - those that we're taking about here. Putting a 'measure' on abstract notions is needed if we're to put them to practical use in the real world. (Perhaps we should wheel in A.J. Ayer or his modern cohorts here for we've a language/nomenclature problem: people need to have a comprehensive understanding of any new language - i.e.: the meaning of any new definitions.)
Thus, for this purpose, it seems logical to me to separate the 'theoretical' approach of Moore, Russell, Whitehead et al from this new thought, and it needs to be a radical break. Berkeley's questioning the existence of the quad's tree or Russell's questioning the reality of the table at which he's sitting through doubts about the viability of his sense datum have no place here.
(Physicists didn't make progress in QFT (part of Quantum Mechanics) until they learned to solve seemingly intractable math issues such as 'infinites' (akin to dividing by zero). This was a damned hard effort and took many years but it only came about after they recognized the need for a solution was essential if they were to make further progress. It's clear to me philosophy has problems of this nature and magnitude and the subject we're discussing here is one of the most significant of them.)
Why is this important you may well ask. Because the world's in a mess and that's because society's also in a horrible mess - the Nature article which we're responding to here illustrates the point. Our ethics are all over the place, values and value systems are no longer consistent as they were once were when the Church ruled our lives, and so on. And we desperately need a coherent, realistic and practical responses from philosophy/philosophers. Simply, the profession isn't leading the way as it ought to be, it should have been much more proactive decades ago and taken the leadership after the churches vacated their traditional role.
What worries me about the second part of your response isn't that philosophers are questioning the empiricist reasoning of the likes of Hobbes, Berkeley, Hume, etc. or Moore's Principia Ethica for that's what philosophers do, rather it's the milieu in which they're now operating which is seemingly putting strictures on what they do. Like fashion, a set of cultural boundary conditions is determining what they actually do in practice. (BTW, I accept with Academia in the horrible state it's currently in at present that challenge is more than unusually difficult.)
There's more than a hint of postmodernism in your response. That's not a criticism of you the messenger but rather it's echoing my concern that we no longer have time to luxuriate in many of postmodernism's excesses. Simply, time is desperately short, philosophers must be proactive now.
You only have to read the posts to this story on HN to realize the diversity of opinion and the lack of agreement and cohestion in respect of core values amongst this group. Outside this community views will be even more diverse.
However I agree with you, things are never quite as simple as they seem when one grinds them fine, also time and ideas move on. In discussions such as this I like to use the analogy of Newton's Laws of Motion which after hundreds of years still work well for 'everyday' use but they're all but useless in other endeavors such as our phones' GPS - to get there we had to progress through Lagrangian and Hamiltonian mechanics to Relativity over several hundred years. The same applies to philosophy and philosophical argument and it's why I find it so interesting.
As you're aware, like other disciplines, philosophy is built on earlier work - from the Ancient Greeks through Descartes, Hobbes, Locke, Hume and so on, so it's not unreasonable to expect philosophy to have moved on from G.E. Moore's time. Nevertheless, I had to start somewhere and Moore's points are reasonably relevant.
In the light of modern-day thinking it's not unreasonable to examine Bentham's and Mills' ideas and philosophers should continue to do this no matter the era they're working in. That said, it's not a matter of discarding old ideas but that of refinement.
we cannot deprecate utilitarianism ideas without taking into account what they have contributed to both philosophy and to the world in a practical sense - as clearly all modern cities incorporate utilitarian principles to varying degrees. If we are to deprecate them then we must give explicit arguments for doing so. As you correctly point out we should question Bentham's felicific calculus and similarly I'd add to that the then notion of measuring 'happiness' in units of utiles and 'unhappiness' in even less familiar disutiles.
It made sense to use these calculi in Bentham's time. Then the conceptual framework encapsulating the notion of utility would have been better understood and appeared more useful if there were ways to measure the effectiveness of its outcomes. Nowadays we've moved on for reasons too complex to discuss here and I won't mention them as they will be familiar to you.
Anyone who would insist in trying to do quantitative measurements in this now-simplistic and anachronistic framework would seen a little daft. So quo vadis? Let's look at a parallel: physics has moved on from the Newton's comparatively simple notion of force to the more sophisticated useful concepts of energy and momentum, similarly so too has philosophy but unlike physics, it has yet to come to any widely accepted conclusions in this particular matter.
I believe Bentham and Mills were on the right track however, they were bedeviled in their efforts (as we still are) to 'quantify' abstract notions - those that we're taking about here. Putting a 'measure' on abstract notions is needed if we're to put them to practical use in the real world. (Perhaps we should wheel in A.J. Ayer or his modern cohorts here for we've a language/nomenclature problem: people need to have a comprehensive understanding of any new language - i.e.: the meaning of any new definitions.)
Thus, for this purpose, it seems logical to me to separate the 'theoretical' approach of Moore, Russell, Whitehead et al from this new thought, and it needs to be a radical break. Berkeley's questioning the existence of the quad's tree or Russell's questioning the reality of the table at which he's sitting through doubts about the viability of his sense datum have no place here.
(Physicists didn't make progress in QFT (part of Quantum Mechanics) until they learned to solve seemingly intractable math issues such as 'infinites' (akin to dividing by zero). This was a damned hard effort and took many years but it only came about after they recognized the need for a solution was essential if they were to make further progress. It's clear to me philosophy has problems of this nature and magnitude and the subject we're discussing here is one of the most significant of them.)
Why is this important you may well ask. Because the world's in a mess and that's because society's also in a horrible mess - the Nature article which we're responding to here illustrates the point. Our ethics are all over the place, values and value systems are no longer consistent as they were once were when the Church ruled our lives, and so on. And we desperately need a coherent, realistic and practical responses from philosophy/philosophers. Simply, the profession isn't leading the way as it ought to be, it should have been much more proactive decades ago and taken the leadership after the churches vacated their traditional role.
What worries me about the second part of your response isn't that philosophers are questioning the empiricist reasoning of the likes of Hobbes, Berkeley, Hume, etc. or Moore's Principia Ethica for that's what philosophers do, rather it's the milieu in which they're now operating which is seemingly putting strictures on what they do. Like fashion, a set of cultural boundary conditions is determining what they actually do in practice. (BTW, I accept with Academia in the horrible state it's currently in at present that challenge is more than unusually difficult.)
There's more than a hint of postmodernism in your response. That's not a criticism of you the messenger but rather it's echoing my concern that we no longer have time to luxuriate in many of postmodernism's excesses. Simply, time is desperately short, philosophers must be proactive now.
You only have to read the posts to this story on HN to realize the diversity of opinion and the lack of agreement and cohestion in respect of core values amongst this group. Outside this community views will be even more diverse.
> In discussions such as this I like to use the analogy of Newton's Laws of Motion which after hundreds of years still work well for 'everyday' use but they're all but useless in other endeavors such as our phones' GPS - to get there we had to progress through Lagrangian and Hamiltonian mechanics to Relativity over several hundred years. The same applies to philosophy and philosophical argument and it's why I find it so interesting.
This is where I don't agree. Philosophy and physics are very different.
In physics, at some point certain major theories become established and universally accepted. Pretty much all physicists accept Einstein's theories of relativity as correct–up to the limits of our current ability to test them.
By contrast, in philosophy, professional consensus is vastly more elusive than in physics. The same debates rage from generation and generation, without ever coming to any clear resolution. This is especially true when it comes to highly controversial areas such as ethics:
Are moral statements cognitive or non-cognitive? If cognitive, is their truth objective or subjective? If objective, is the ground of their objectivity natural, non-natural, or supernatural? And, if their truth is objective, which proposed normative ethical theory best approximates that truth: Utilitarianism? (Act, rule or preference?) Deontology? Virtue ethics? Natural law theory? Some combination of two or more of them? Something else entirely?
Philosophy, as a field, is nowhere near reaching consensus on those questions, and consensus seems just as far away now as it did a century ago, and will probably seem just as distant a century from now.
That's not to say no issues ever get resolved. The IEP reports [0] that "...philosophers seem to have reached a consensus... that indirect doxastic voluntarism is true" – and I have no reason to doubt its report. But indirect doxastic voluntarism (that we have some measure of indirect voluntary control over what we believe) is not an especially interesting doctrine. The far more interesting question of direct doxastic voluntarism (whether, at least in some cases, we have the ability to make a direct voluntary choice of what to believe) – is as disputed as it ever was.
Another example of a resolved issue – during the 1950s and early 1960s, logical positivism was enormously popular in (Anglophone) academic philosophy. However, consensus was soon reached that, at least in its classical "meaningfulness is verifiability" formulation, it is a self-refuting position – by the 1970s, essentially everyone had moved on from it, and that consensus has endured from then until now. So, at least occasionally, professional consensus can emerge either that (a) some minor theory is true, or (b) some major theory is false. But consensus on the truth of major theories seems to perennially escape us – quite unlike the case of physics.
> rather it's the milieu in which they're now operating which is seemingly putting strictures on what they do. Like fashion, a set of cultural boundary conditions is determining what they actually do in practice. (BTW, I accept with Academia in the horrible state it's currently in at present that challenge is more than unusually difficult.)
One philosopher might be a moral anti-realist, who believes that morality is simply a subjective expression of emotional attitudes. Another may be a moral realist, yet be convinced that morality can be objectively defined in terms of some theory of the natural sciences (such as evolutionary psychology). A third may be a divine command theorist, convinced that morality can be objectively defined as obeying God's will (as revealed in the Bible or Quran or whatever). All three have reasons to reject Moore's positions, but those reasons are rather different in each case. So the fact that Moore's position is widely disputed, is not a sign of "groupthink". (For what it's worth, I personally think Moore is mostly right–but I know there are many philosophers who disagree.)
> There's more than a hint of postmodernism in your response.
I don't agree. I don't have much sympathy for postmodernism – which is itself somewhat of a vague term, but it is generally associated either with doubt about the existence of objective truth, or else the claim that we are fundamentally unable to know what it is even if it does exist. Whereas, contra postmodernism, I am quite convinced that objective truth exists, and that we do not have any fundamental disability in knowing it – even in philosophy.
My motivation was simply that, if someone says "discipline X says Y", that can be reasonably taken as saying "discipline X has a professional consensus that Y"–which I know in this case to be false. If you had couched your point, not in terms of unqualified "philosophy", but simply as being one philosophical theory, or philosophical school, or individual philosopher (Moore) – I probably would not have replied.
[0] https://iep.utm.edu/doxastic-voluntarism/
This is where I don't agree. Philosophy and physics are very different.
In physics, at some point certain major theories become established and universally accepted. Pretty much all physicists accept Einstein's theories of relativity as correct–up to the limits of our current ability to test them.
By contrast, in philosophy, professional consensus is vastly more elusive than in physics. The same debates rage from generation and generation, without ever coming to any clear resolution. This is especially true when it comes to highly controversial areas such as ethics:
Are moral statements cognitive or non-cognitive? If cognitive, is their truth objective or subjective? If objective, is the ground of their objectivity natural, non-natural, or supernatural? And, if their truth is objective, which proposed normative ethical theory best approximates that truth: Utilitarianism? (Act, rule or preference?) Deontology? Virtue ethics? Natural law theory? Some combination of two or more of them? Something else entirely?
Philosophy, as a field, is nowhere near reaching consensus on those questions, and consensus seems just as far away now as it did a century ago, and will probably seem just as distant a century from now.
That's not to say no issues ever get resolved. The IEP reports [0] that "...philosophers seem to have reached a consensus... that indirect doxastic voluntarism is true" – and I have no reason to doubt its report. But indirect doxastic voluntarism (that we have some measure of indirect voluntary control over what we believe) is not an especially interesting doctrine. The far more interesting question of direct doxastic voluntarism (whether, at least in some cases, we have the ability to make a direct voluntary choice of what to believe) – is as disputed as it ever was.
Another example of a resolved issue – during the 1950s and early 1960s, logical positivism was enormously popular in (Anglophone) academic philosophy. However, consensus was soon reached that, at least in its classical "meaningfulness is verifiability" formulation, it is a self-refuting position – by the 1970s, essentially everyone had moved on from it, and that consensus has endured from then until now. So, at least occasionally, professional consensus can emerge either that (a) some minor theory is true, or (b) some major theory is false. But consensus on the truth of major theories seems to perennially escape us – quite unlike the case of physics.
> rather it's the milieu in which they're now operating which is seemingly putting strictures on what they do. Like fashion, a set of cultural boundary conditions is determining what they actually do in practice. (BTW, I accept with Academia in the horrible state it's currently in at present that challenge is more than unusually difficult.)
One philosopher might be a moral anti-realist, who believes that morality is simply a subjective expression of emotional attitudes. Another may be a moral realist, yet be convinced that morality can be objectively defined in terms of some theory of the natural sciences (such as evolutionary psychology). A third may be a divine command theorist, convinced that morality can be objectively defined as obeying God's will (as revealed in the Bible or Quran or whatever). All three have reasons to reject Moore's positions, but those reasons are rather different in each case. So the fact that Moore's position is widely disputed, is not a sign of "groupthink". (For what it's worth, I personally think Moore is mostly right–but I know there are many philosophers who disagree.)
> There's more than a hint of postmodernism in your response.
I don't agree. I don't have much sympathy for postmodernism – which is itself somewhat of a vague term, but it is generally associated either with doubt about the existence of objective truth, or else the claim that we are fundamentally unable to know what it is even if it does exist. Whereas, contra postmodernism, I am quite convinced that objective truth exists, and that we do not have any fundamental disability in knowing it – even in philosophy.
My motivation was simply that, if someone says "discipline X says Y", that can be reasonably taken as saying "discipline X has a professional consensus that Y"–which I know in this case to be false. If you had couched your point, not in terms of unqualified "philosophy", but simply as being one philosophical theory, or philosophical school, or individual philosopher (Moore) – I probably would not have replied.
[0] https://iep.utm.edu/doxastic-voluntarism/
Thank you for your reply. I realized that to respond to your comment in a way which would ensure I wasn't misunderstood meant that my usual HN style would be inappropriate, and for that I'd have to adopt the discipline's more formal nomenclature. As that needed a carefully-worded reply I put it aside for consideration, regrettably however I forgot about it until this moment. I've also just now realized that I'm close to the timeout limit for comments to this story and I reckon I at least owe you the courtesy of an acknowledgment, hence this rushed comment.
In philosophy (at least in my experience) documenting one's words so they aren't misinterpreted can take an inordinate amount of time, therefore this isn't the detailed reply that I'd have liked to have written. It, however, will have to do. Anyway, HN isn't the right place for ongoing philosophical discussions because of its timeouts. That also brings me to one of my pet subjects about all online forums that I'm familiar with and that's that they become long and unwieldy in very short order, thus late entries, irrespective of merit, are often depreciated or ignored. It's an ongoing grouping problem [Gestalt laws, etc.] of significant proportions which remains to be solved.
You're right, getting a consensus in philosophy is more difficult than in science. However, I'd also argue that in science a consensus is often difficult to achieve—that is, until there's a good understanding of the physics involved and sometimes that takes centuries to achieve. Nowadays, the leading edge of physics is pretty much a 'bleeding' edge, as it can hardly be said that there's any widespread consensus about how to progress forward and make truly significant advances. Especially given that not much progress has been made since the general agreement about the Standard Model of some 40-plus years ago and that recent LHC experiments haven't much changed the situation.
We don't know each other nor do we have knowledge of each other's background and experience, thus pitching comments at each other until that info is synced makes communication somewhat hit-and-miss. Moreover, it's made considerably worse due to philosophy's many and diverse fields. As you've likely gathered, whilst I've studied the subject it's not my daily bread and butter. Mostly it's been science/technology that's kept me off the street, thus it would be fair comment to say that I'm unlikely to be up to speed in many of philosophy's specialist branches.
However, I've found that all the branches of philosophy I've studied—analytic, political, ethics/moral philosophy, formal logic, etc. and even existentialism—have benefited me greatly, especially so in that they've prevented me from forming strictured or dogmatic ideas about any one aspect of the discipline. It seems to me that in philosophy it's necessary, in fact almost essential, to be open and flexible to new and changing ideas, however that doesn't mean that one has to dispense with or change one's understanding of its fundamental foundations.
That said, given my background and introduction to the subject, my roots are principally in the analytic tradition. I'm old enough to have watched Bertrand Russell on television on many occasions as a youngster and I was impressed with the clarity, precision and succinctness of what he said. In hindsight, it's clear to me that Russell's influence on me at that young age was very significant and lasting, and thus it's why I studied philosophy.
Those roots and that analytic background is why I'd differ from your comment that 'philosophy and physics are very different', some aspects of philosophy are different to physics and others not so much so. Here, it is essential to be very specific in one's definitions and to carefully detail the scope of one's argument/comparison. I contend that [some] scientists and philosophers devalue aspects of each other's profession specifically because their concepts and notions are ill-defined and not sufficiently bounded. I've often heard physicists say that philosophy has nothing to say to them and yet moments later they're using metaphysical terms and concepts to describe some aspect of physics.
Philosophy deals heavily in metaphysical concepts, by that I mean above and beyond physics (which is the definition that was drummed into me), but many theories in physics have metaphysical aspects to them. Many theories from Quantum Physics that attempt to explain its weird behaviour have metaphysical aspects to them, that is, they're just theories without having an exact understanding of the underlying physics. Nevertheless, even without physical/experimental evidence, they are the subject of constant discussion and argument in mainstream physics. Take the Many Worlds theory of Quantum Mechanics for example, it's constantly under vigorous discussion by physicists simply because its notions are seemingly so outrageous and weird.
One of principal protagonists of the theory is theoretical physicist Sean Carroll who believes there's no other reasonable explanation for the Many Worlds theory however he's the first to admit that there's no physical proof or experimental evidence whatsoever in support of the theory. Until proven, it and other important physics theories such as the Inflationary theory of the early universe are essentially metaphysical notions because they are only constructs of the human mind and not of demonstrable physical reality—even if they are highly plausible.
Yes, I'm very mindful that some of the wording I've used could be deemed to be skating on thin ice as there are a few thorny issues that again come back to definitions, linguistics, epistemology/theory of knowledge, etc. For instance, physicists will often claim that they cannot explain some aspect of physics or provide a reasonable analogy that lay people can understand is because the only way it can be explained is in terms of mathematics. That is, the formulae contain the evidence however it doesn't bear any resemblance to anything that humans would normally consider or understand to be 'reality'.
The same goes goes for logic's acceptance into philosophy, Russell argued that that logic was actually an aspect of mathematics and that basically it didn't belong in philosophy (that is, it's not intrinsically part of it, but again we're playing with semantics here). However, can you imagine what would happen if formal logic was removed from philosophy altogether? The discipline would descend into bedlam, linguistics, semantics, formalism, etc. would either vanish out the window or essentially become irrelevant.
Moreover, it seems to me that it'd be hard if not impossible to make sense of moral statements without it. Whether they're cognitive or non-cognitive statements (as you've mentioned), or the issue of deontology, etc. Without an understanding of the underlying logic of statements and arguments, such concepts would make little if any sense. If we couldn't determine the subject or predicate of a statement or follow the logic through a formal argument then the philosophy of morals and ethics may as well also fly out the window.
Can you imagine what our understanding would be like if we had no way of analyzing the logic that underlies the debate/argument between Socrates and Thrasymachus about the 'Meaning of Justice' in Book I of the Republic? Likely it'd just be another fairy story lost in the mists of time. However, when we introduce the concept of formal/logical argument then the dialog becomes as prescient, fresh and relevant as it ever was, and this is especially important in an era when in the minds of many the definition of 'truth' has become to mean a 'notion or belief held about a matter without evidence or rational logic'. As we're aware, in many circles it's now widely accepted that 'truth' is whatever a person wishes to believe, evidence and questioning its accuracy is no longer a prerequisite. When the meaning of key and important words seemingly metamorphose at will and that real and often negative actions results therefrom, then it's little wonder the world is big trouble and that we need to take action.
One of the main thrusts of my earlier post was that philosophers should be much more proactive in combating much of this nonsense and I strongly maintain that. I'd suggest that this has essentially nothing to do with your comments in paragraph four re cognition etc. These are both erudite and important arguments that philosophers have and definitely should continue to have. However they're essentially meaningless out on the street where 'truth' is under attack.
That's where I come back to Russell; if he suffered from any cognitive dissonance that may have arisen out of possible disparities between his work as outlined in Principia Mathematica and his moral and political philosophy then he showed no signs of it whatsoever. He was a fearless and very effective political campaigner on moral and ethical issues—moreover, he was very much in the public eye, his name was a household word! There's little doubt that he was one of the best advocates for both philosophy and many important moral and social causes that we've had over the last century. We need more philosophers who have a similar charisma and popular presence to cut through this present-day dross and noise.
After reading your reply, it's clear to me that we have somewhat different philosophical outlooks, also we place different emphases on various aspects of the discipline, nevertheless I'd reckon we'd be in much agreement on many issues. If perchance we ever managed to spend an afternoon together discussing philosophy then I'd reckon we'd get along just fine.
In philosophy (at least in my experience) documenting one's words so they aren't misinterpreted can take an inordinate amount of time, therefore this isn't the detailed reply that I'd have liked to have written. It, however, will have to do. Anyway, HN isn't the right place for ongoing philosophical discussions because of its timeouts. That also brings me to one of my pet subjects about all online forums that I'm familiar with and that's that they become long and unwieldy in very short order, thus late entries, irrespective of merit, are often depreciated or ignored. It's an ongoing grouping problem [Gestalt laws, etc.] of significant proportions which remains to be solved.
You're right, getting a consensus in philosophy is more difficult than in science. However, I'd also argue that in science a consensus is often difficult to achieve—that is, until there's a good understanding of the physics involved and sometimes that takes centuries to achieve. Nowadays, the leading edge of physics is pretty much a 'bleeding' edge, as it can hardly be said that there's any widespread consensus about how to progress forward and make truly significant advances. Especially given that not much progress has been made since the general agreement about the Standard Model of some 40-plus years ago and that recent LHC experiments haven't much changed the situation.
We don't know each other nor do we have knowledge of each other's background and experience, thus pitching comments at each other until that info is synced makes communication somewhat hit-and-miss. Moreover, it's made considerably worse due to philosophy's many and diverse fields. As you've likely gathered, whilst I've studied the subject it's not my daily bread and butter. Mostly it's been science/technology that's kept me off the street, thus it would be fair comment to say that I'm unlikely to be up to speed in many of philosophy's specialist branches.
However, I've found that all the branches of philosophy I've studied—analytic, political, ethics/moral philosophy, formal logic, etc. and even existentialism—have benefited me greatly, especially so in that they've prevented me from forming strictured or dogmatic ideas about any one aspect of the discipline. It seems to me that in philosophy it's necessary, in fact almost essential, to be open and flexible to new and changing ideas, however that doesn't mean that one has to dispense with or change one's understanding of its fundamental foundations.
That said, given my background and introduction to the subject, my roots are principally in the analytic tradition. I'm old enough to have watched Bertrand Russell on television on many occasions as a youngster and I was impressed with the clarity, precision and succinctness of what he said. In hindsight, it's clear to me that Russell's influence on me at that young age was very significant and lasting, and thus it's why I studied philosophy.
Those roots and that analytic background is why I'd differ from your comment that 'philosophy and physics are very different', some aspects of philosophy are different to physics and others not so much so. Here, it is essential to be very specific in one's definitions and to carefully detail the scope of one's argument/comparison. I contend that [some] scientists and philosophers devalue aspects of each other's profession specifically because their concepts and notions are ill-defined and not sufficiently bounded. I've often heard physicists say that philosophy has nothing to say to them and yet moments later they're using metaphysical terms and concepts to describe some aspect of physics.
Philosophy deals heavily in metaphysical concepts, by that I mean above and beyond physics (which is the definition that was drummed into me), but many theories in physics have metaphysical aspects to them. Many theories from Quantum Physics that attempt to explain its weird behaviour have metaphysical aspects to them, that is, they're just theories without having an exact understanding of the underlying physics. Nevertheless, even without physical/experimental evidence, they are the subject of constant discussion and argument in mainstream physics. Take the Many Worlds theory of Quantum Mechanics for example, it's constantly under vigorous discussion by physicists simply because its notions are seemingly so outrageous and weird.
One of principal protagonists of the theory is theoretical physicist Sean Carroll who believes there's no other reasonable explanation for the Many Worlds theory however he's the first to admit that there's no physical proof or experimental evidence whatsoever in support of the theory. Until proven, it and other important physics theories such as the Inflationary theory of the early universe are essentially metaphysical notions because they are only constructs of the human mind and not of demonstrable physical reality—even if they are highly plausible.
Yes, I'm very mindful that some of the wording I've used could be deemed to be skating on thin ice as there are a few thorny issues that again come back to definitions, linguistics, epistemology/theory of knowledge, etc. For instance, physicists will often claim that they cannot explain some aspect of physics or provide a reasonable analogy that lay people can understand is because the only way it can be explained is in terms of mathematics. That is, the formulae contain the evidence however it doesn't bear any resemblance to anything that humans would normally consider or understand to be 'reality'.
The same goes goes for logic's acceptance into philosophy, Russell argued that that logic was actually an aspect of mathematics and that basically it didn't belong in philosophy (that is, it's not intrinsically part of it, but again we're playing with semantics here). However, can you imagine what would happen if formal logic was removed from philosophy altogether? The discipline would descend into bedlam, linguistics, semantics, formalism, etc. would either vanish out the window or essentially become irrelevant.
Moreover, it seems to me that it'd be hard if not impossible to make sense of moral statements without it. Whether they're cognitive or non-cognitive statements (as you've mentioned), or the issue of deontology, etc. Without an understanding of the underlying logic of statements and arguments, such concepts would make little if any sense. If we couldn't determine the subject or predicate of a statement or follow the logic through a formal argument then the philosophy of morals and ethics may as well also fly out the window.
Can you imagine what our understanding would be like if we had no way of analyzing the logic that underlies the debate/argument between Socrates and Thrasymachus about the 'Meaning of Justice' in Book I of the Republic? Likely it'd just be another fairy story lost in the mists of time. However, when we introduce the concept of formal/logical argument then the dialog becomes as prescient, fresh and relevant as it ever was, and this is especially important in an era when in the minds of many the definition of 'truth' has become to mean a 'notion or belief held about a matter without evidence or rational logic'. As we're aware, in many circles it's now widely accepted that 'truth' is whatever a person wishes to believe, evidence and questioning its accuracy is no longer a prerequisite. When the meaning of key and important words seemingly metamorphose at will and that real and often negative actions results therefrom, then it's little wonder the world is big trouble and that we need to take action.
One of the main thrusts of my earlier post was that philosophers should be much more proactive in combating much of this nonsense and I strongly maintain that. I'd suggest that this has essentially nothing to do with your comments in paragraph four re cognition etc. These are both erudite and important arguments that philosophers have and definitely should continue to have. However they're essentially meaningless out on the street where 'truth' is under attack.
That's where I come back to Russell; if he suffered from any cognitive dissonance that may have arisen out of possible disparities between his work as outlined in Principia Mathematica and his moral and political philosophy then he showed no signs of it whatsoever. He was a fearless and very effective political campaigner on moral and ethical issues—moreover, he was very much in the public eye, his name was a household word! There's little doubt that he was one of the best advocates for both philosophy and many important moral and social causes that we've had over the last century. We need more philosophers who have a similar charisma and popular presence to cut through this present-day dross and noise.
After reading your reply, it's clear to me that we have somewhat different philosophical outlooks, also we place different emphases on various aspects of the discipline, nevertheless I'd reckon we'd be in much agreement on many issues. If perchance we ever managed to spend an afternoon together discussing philosophy then I'd reckon we'd get along just fine.
> Take the Many Worlds theory of Quantum Mechanics
Some will say that, to be strictly correct about terminology, QM is a theory, but many worlds is an interpretation of it. The theory belongs to physics proper; the interpretation belongs, not to physics, but rather to its allied discipline, the philosophy of physics. (Many extra-philosophical disciplines have allied subfields of philosophy – philosophy of mathematics, philosophy of science, philosophy of biology, philosophy of law, philosophy of politics, philosophy of medicine, philosophy of psychiatry, philosophy of education, etc, etc, etc.)
These interpretaions belong in "philosophy of physics" rather than "physics proper", because (1) they are (at least for now) untestable in practice; (2) the mathematics is (largely) the same. Something like string theory is more "physics proper" than "philosophy of physics", because even though (1) is also true for it, (2) is false.
But, not everyone is so careful about the boundary between "physics" and "philosophy of physics". Your example of physicists who say "philosophy has nothing to say to them" and then embrace many worlds is an example.
> The same goes goes for logic's acceptance into philosophy, Russell argued that that logic was actually an aspect of mathematics and that basically it didn't belong in philosophy
We can study logics as formal mathematical systems, and to that extent logic indeed forms part of mathematics (mathematical logic). However, while the mathematical study of logics is a vast topic – if we ask the question "does this mathematical logic accurately model how (some aspect of) human thought actually functions, or ought to function"? – that question is beyond the proper bounds of mathematics – and that's where the boundary lies between philosophical logical and mathematical logic.
> After reading your reply, it's clear to me that we have somewhat different philosophical outlooks
I get somewhat pedantic about precise conceptual distinctions (including trying to correctly deploy "the discipline's more formal nomenclature", as you put it), but I feel like you treat these distinctions in a more impressionistic way than I do. I think that's one difference between our approaches.
> If perchance we ever managed to spend an afternoon together discussing philosophy then I'd reckon we'd get along just fine.
Yes. Who knows, maybe some day we shall.
Some will say that, to be strictly correct about terminology, QM is a theory, but many worlds is an interpretation of it. The theory belongs to physics proper; the interpretation belongs, not to physics, but rather to its allied discipline, the philosophy of physics. (Many extra-philosophical disciplines have allied subfields of philosophy – philosophy of mathematics, philosophy of science, philosophy of biology, philosophy of law, philosophy of politics, philosophy of medicine, philosophy of psychiatry, philosophy of education, etc, etc, etc.)
These interpretaions belong in "philosophy of physics" rather than "physics proper", because (1) they are (at least for now) untestable in practice; (2) the mathematics is (largely) the same. Something like string theory is more "physics proper" than "philosophy of physics", because even though (1) is also true for it, (2) is false.
But, not everyone is so careful about the boundary between "physics" and "philosophy of physics". Your example of physicists who say "philosophy has nothing to say to them" and then embrace many worlds is an example.
> The same goes goes for logic's acceptance into philosophy, Russell argued that that logic was actually an aspect of mathematics and that basically it didn't belong in philosophy
We can study logics as formal mathematical systems, and to that extent logic indeed forms part of mathematics (mathematical logic). However, while the mathematical study of logics is a vast topic – if we ask the question "does this mathematical logic accurately model how (some aspect of) human thought actually functions, or ought to function"? – that question is beyond the proper bounds of mathematics – and that's where the boundary lies between philosophical logical and mathematical logic.
> After reading your reply, it's clear to me that we have somewhat different philosophical outlooks
I get somewhat pedantic about precise conceptual distinctions (including trying to correctly deploy "the discipline's more formal nomenclature", as you put it), but I feel like you treat these distinctions in a more impressionistic way than I do. I think that's one difference between our approaches.
> If perchance we ever managed to spend an afternoon together discussing philosophy then I'd reckon we'd get along just fine.
Yes. Who knows, maybe some day we shall.
>>Advancing knowledge and understanding is a fundamental public good. In some cases, however, potential harms to the populations studied may outweigh the benefit of publication<<
Are they really advocating for self censorship in the sciences? And when the whims of societal taste turn or, God forbid (and yes, I put this with all irony intended), Twitter decides it doesn't like an opinion for five minutes... does science self censor then as well?
Are they really advocating for self censorship in the sciences? And when the whims of societal taste turn or, God forbid (and yes, I put this with all irony intended), Twitter decides it doesn't like an opinion for five minutes... does science self censor then as well?
David Shor was ostracized for presenting this research:
https://www.vox.com/2020/7/29/21340308/david-shor-omar-wasow...
> Shor, citing research by Princeton political scientist Omar Wasow, suggested that these incidents could prompt a political backlash that would help President Donald Trump’s bid for reelection. At the same time, he noted that, historically, nonviolent protests had been effective at driving political change “mainly by encouraging warm elite discourse and media coverage.”
https://www.vox.com/2020/7/29/21340308/david-shor-omar-wasow...
> Shor, citing research by Princeton political scientist Omar Wasow, suggested that these incidents could prompt a political backlash that would help President Donald Trump’s bid for reelection. At the same time, he noted that, historically, nonviolent protests had been effective at driving political change “mainly by encouraging warm elite discourse and media coverage.”
The galling thing about this was that he was fire by a white-controlled organization for saying “people think rioting is bad.”
Rioting continued and democrats didn’t stand up and say “rioting is bad,” and as a result of that rioting the criminal justice movement was set back a decade.
In Minneapolis now Ilhan Omar barely won her primary because she wants to defund the police and even Black people want more cops: https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/minneapolis-polic...
Rioting continued and democrats didn’t stand up and say “rioting is bad,” and as a result of that rioting the criminal justice movement was set back a decade.
In Minneapolis now Ilhan Omar barely won her primary because she wants to defund the police and even Black people want more cops: https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/minneapolis-polic...
Culture wars in the US are primarily white-on-white violence.
I have a white friend who once asked me “why do you always sound like you’re defending my racist uncle?” (I think I made some comment about understanding where Trump voters are coming from re: immigration since people in my own home country would think the same way.) And I’m thinking “why do your views on race and immigration seem to be a proxy for your conflict with your uncle?”
If people are truly worried about electing people like Donald Trump they'll broaden education and, in particular, education in the hard sciences like maths and computer science to bolster critical thinking and logic. At that point we won't elect reality show hucksters who blatantly lie and foment sedition.
We should get past the belief that those who aren’t on our political side are just lacking education and not thinking properly.
You might despise the candidate (and to my opinion most candidate can be despised in many ways), but that doesn’t put all their voters at the candidate’s level, nor preclude supporters from “using” their candidates to push a specific aspect.
To me that’s the lesson times and times again, when we think some candidate is obviously non viable and we’re just dumdfounded as they’re elected.
You might despise the candidate (and to my opinion most candidate can be despised in many ways), but that doesn’t put all their voters at the candidate’s level, nor preclude supporters from “using” their candidates to push a specific aspect.
To me that’s the lesson times and times again, when we think some candidate is obviously non viable and we’re just dumdfounded as they’re elected.
Indeed. This religionization of political beliefs where everyone must be without sin lest they be thrown into the pit has time and again handed elections to awful people and driven wedges further between people who really aren't all that different.
I understand your point and it's well taken. Just to point out, as I feel I misspoke or was mischaracterized by my statement, because I hold the Republicans in disdain doesn't mean I hold any less disdain for the Democrats. I haven't seen any shortage of political hucksters on the stage, "he who must not be named" (for fear of moderation) is just the latest example.
Sorry if I came off as a single sided zealot =) I, like most people, just want a little compromise and moderation, and most of all respect out of my politicians. What I don't want is fealty to a political party first, like a bunch of gang bangers.
Sorry if I came off as a single sided zealot =) I, like most people, just want a little compromise and moderation, and most of all respect out of my politicians. What I don't want is fealty to a political party first, like a bunch of gang bangers.
And yet a surprising number of violent terrorists have engineering degrees.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/european-journal-of-...
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/european-journal-of-...
That's a fascinating paper. There are a couple of issues I take with it. Their dismissal of recruitment of engineers because they use them recklessly in terror attacks doesn't seem to hold much water. If They were recruited on the promise of heaven by Jihad, then logically, they would want to die by Jihad. And the small sample size, plus their own mentioned Saudi Exception seem to flaw their own paper, even to them.
But it's still fascinating and a great paper, thank you for sharing! Plus the over representation of both Nazis and Islamist terrorist groups is fascinating. I'm completely geeked out! Thanks again!
But it's still fascinating and a great paper, thank you for sharing! Plus the over representation of both Nazis and Islamist terrorist groups is fascinating. I'm completely geeked out! Thanks again!
There could be straightforward explanations, such as: People from poor countries are more likely to study fields that are seen as pragmatic, meritocratic, and lucrative, and where jobs don't require things like mastery of English, or family connections.
Perhaps, but I suspect that the orderly personality type that often contributes to people studying engineering can, in excess, lead to a totalitarian world view.
Because of course the people who voted for Donald Trump are uneducated and don't know science? Are you hearing yourself?
"If people are truly worried about electing people like Donald Trump they'll broaden education and, in particular, education in the hard sciences like maths and computer science to bolster critical thinking and logic. At that point we won't elect reality show hucksters who blatantly lie and foment sedition."
If our choices at election time continue ro be between a shit sandwich and a shit sandwich without the bread, we will continue to have similar issues. Lesser of two evils and all that.
Ps which one has the bread is just a matter of perspective for each individual.
If our choices at election time continue ro be between a shit sandwich and a shit sandwich without the bread, we will continue to have similar issues. Lesser of two evils and all that.
Ps which one has the bread is just a matter of perspective for each individual.
If there was an option with bread, it would have won in a landslide.
The competitors last round were shit sandwich vs shit sandwich you haven't tried yet.
The competitors last round were shit sandwich vs shit sandwich you haven't tried yet.
The only reference to Twitter on the page is in the footer "Follow us on Twitter" which links to https://twitter.com/NatureHumBehav. Where are you getting this Twitter stuff from?
Moreover, how can any of these be enforced, and by whom? At least you know who your church authority figures are and who to criticize. Where do we even start if we let Twitter outrage decide whether science is potentially harmful and should be allowed or not?
This is worse than religion because it’s pretending to be rational. And many many people will be fooled.
This is worse than religion because it’s pretending to be rational. And many many people will be fooled.
> And many many people will be fooled.
At least you can spot the acolytes with "I believe in Science" bumper stickers and yard signs. Science is not a belief system.
At least you can spot the acolytes with "I believe in Science" bumper stickers and yard signs. Science is not a belief system.
No, but the trappings of science have been used to dress the new religion of the west. Same old shit, we just don’t call it god now, we call it “the science”.
We are romans in the early 5th century. What’s coming won’t be pretty.
We are romans in the early 5th century. What’s coming won’t be pretty.
Specifically, we have to look at Rome cira 306 to 337 AD to understand when the floodgates opened and were never able to be closed again. Once that sort of thing happens, there's no going back. From there, the moral decay sets in and the writing is on the wall.
Isn’t it crazy how easy it is to see but how inevitable the outcome ultimately is? Why must future generations repeat the mistakes of the past? This is the human condition.
Because religion is the opiate of the masses.
It's too powerful of a manipulation and control tool for the elites to just give up on. If we can just replace "god says" with "science says" and have the same result of getting the sheep in line, then of course it will happen.
It's too powerful of a manipulation and control tool for the elites to just give up on. If we can just replace "god says" with "science says" and have the same result of getting the sheep in line, then of course it will happen.
Our technology has improved, but our brains? We've still got the same brains. Still susceptible to the same biases and fallacies now as we were two thousand years ago.
first as tragedy, then as farce
Is it not? I certainly don't know or understand even a fraction of what would be considered established science, but if a credible expert tells me that something is supported by established science I will believe it over something like religious dogma. I consider myself to be a "believer" in science.
Science exists in a perpetual state of being supported or challenged by evidence. If the clergy ("credible expert", Nature) make it impossible to challenge the orthodoxy ("established science") then it _is_ dogma.
By being a "believer" in science as you've laid it out, you aren't believing in science as a process, but science as an institution.
By being a "believer" in science as you've laid it out, you aren't believing in science as a process, but science as an institution.
>Science exists in a perpetual state of being supported or challenged by evidence
One problem with that. Some sciences, particularly soft or social sciences cross broadly into culture and "ways of life". There are certain things today that cannot be questioned without getting shouted down or deplatformed. So challenging the current widely held scientific facts can be career ending.
One problem with that. Some sciences, particularly soft or social sciences cross broadly into culture and "ways of life". There are certain things today that cannot be questioned without getting shouted down or deplatformed. So challenging the current widely held scientific facts can be career ending.
That's why there are quite a few people who don't consider some of such fields sciences. I have half a heart to agree with that stance. That's not to say those fields don't have value, but science is the process of building reproduceable, falsifiable evidence. If you can't do that, then you aren't practicing science.
There's clearly some cache to calling your field a science, because we see it so often. They'll even emulate Sciencey Things to maintain the illusion, but like you say, they don't produce testable, falsifiable models. Political Science is a perfect example of a study that's very far from a real science.
Actual science will accept when it's been proven wrong. Much of we have these days isn't that. And that includes many folks working in what would be considered the hard sciences.
Actual science will accept when it's been proven wrong. Much of we have these days isn't that. And that includes many folks working in what would be considered the hard sciences.
"Believe" is an overloaded word. In one sense, it's simply the content of your mental state. In basic epistemology, Knowledge is defined as "Justified True Belief", i.e. when your mental state matches the actual state of the world for the "right" reasons (this is surprisingly tricky to make formal, see [1])If your head is a memory cell, your beliefs are the actual 0s or 1s inside it.
In other senses, "beliefs" are an identity, and some people like to think theirs are more based on science than others. "Believing" in science amounts to adhering to a broad package of ethical and lifestyle choices that references science to various degrees, their followers believe this gives them more legitimacy than other lifesyles or ethics systems, but the actual degree to which they are justified by science varies enormously.
To take 2 extremes :
(1) Taking a stance against fossil fuel is "believing in science" because (good, credible) science says those increase carbon footprint which in turn disrupts the climate in a huge variety of ways, technically this doesn't necessarily imply to oppose fossil fuel as science doesn't have normative component (science doesn't care - in the strictest sense - if human civilization is destroyed or signficantly harmed), but with only an additional few, normally agreed-upon, assumptions you can get there.
(2) Taking a stance against biological-women-exclusive sports is "believing in science" according to the stance followers because a few studies of shaky foundations and questionable funding says there is no unfair advantage to those who had male puberty, although there are tons of other studies that disagree.
Those who say (loudly) they "believe in science" are usually using "believe" in the non-philosophical sense, and the viewpoints they love to push most are usually (2)-like rather than (1)-like.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem
In other senses, "beliefs" are an identity, and some people like to think theirs are more based on science than others. "Believing" in science amounts to adhering to a broad package of ethical and lifestyle choices that references science to various degrees, their followers believe this gives them more legitimacy than other lifesyles or ethics systems, but the actual degree to which they are justified by science varies enormously.
To take 2 extremes :
(1) Taking a stance against fossil fuel is "believing in science" because (good, credible) science says those increase carbon footprint which in turn disrupts the climate in a huge variety of ways, technically this doesn't necessarily imply to oppose fossil fuel as science doesn't have normative component (science doesn't care - in the strictest sense - if human civilization is destroyed or signficantly harmed), but with only an additional few, normally agreed-upon, assumptions you can get there.
(2) Taking a stance against biological-women-exclusive sports is "believing in science" according to the stance followers because a few studies of shaky foundations and questionable funding says there is no unfair advantage to those who had male puberty, although there are tons of other studies that disagree.
Those who say (loudly) they "believe in science" are usually using "believe" in the non-philosophical sense, and the viewpoints they love to push most are usually (2)-like rather than (1)-like.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem
There are extremely few things (if any) we can know for certain. Thinking in terms of boolean logic like this appears very primitive to me.
In my opinion, the only rigorous way to improve our knowledge, is to employ Bayes Theorem, and Bayesian thinking in general.
You and I may have different prior on a topic. We may see the same evidence, but end up believing different things because of the prior. As long as we state the prior, that is good and fair. If the evidence contradicts my prior, I should lower the confidence I have in my belief, even if the prior was big enough that I still believe the same thing.
Unfortunately, what often happens, is that people lock themselves into believing things absolutely. If you lock some prior probability to 1, Bayes' Theorem has n way to let you update that belief.
This is especially common when it comes to beliefs related to religion and identity. In fact, this is one way to define religious belief. Anything you believe that you will NOT stop believing regardless of evidence, could be defined as religious.
If you believe in God, and we discover that Heaven is not on the other side of the starts, the believer just modifies non-core parts, and claims that "God is everywhere and nowhere".
If belief in racist oppression is what defines you, and you find that most individuals are not individually racist anymore, you can just introduce "Structural Racism" that claims that hard work, staying married and maths are racist.
In my opinion, the only rigorous way to improve our knowledge, is to employ Bayes Theorem, and Bayesian thinking in general.
You and I may have different prior on a topic. We may see the same evidence, but end up believing different things because of the prior. As long as we state the prior, that is good and fair. If the evidence contradicts my prior, I should lower the confidence I have in my belief, even if the prior was big enough that I still believe the same thing.
Unfortunately, what often happens, is that people lock themselves into believing things absolutely. If you lock some prior probability to 1, Bayes' Theorem has n way to let you update that belief.
This is especially common when it comes to beliefs related to religion and identity. In fact, this is one way to define religious belief. Anything you believe that you will NOT stop believing regardless of evidence, could be defined as religious.
If you believe in God, and we discover that Heaven is not on the other side of the starts, the believer just modifies non-core parts, and claims that "God is everywhere and nowhere".
If belief in racist oppression is what defines you, and you find that most individuals are not individually racist anymore, you can just introduce "Structural Racism" that claims that hard work, staying married and maths are racist.
Racism of the margins, as it were.
So far as I can tell, the Gettier problem is exactly the same as "I believe in Science" - There's a fallacy of false equivalence in "X is a justified argument, X||Y is therefore justified because of the justification in X", or something like that, I'm not sure what to call that fallacy.
When you evaluate the truth of the whole argument, you'll find that it's not a "Justified True Belief" because the truth does not flow through the justified prepositions.
When you evaluate the truth of the whole argument, you'll find that it's not a "Justified True Belief" because the truth does not flow through the justified prepositions.
I guarantee you that if the guideline documents in TFA came to the attention of Twitter, they'd already be dated, and somebody would start righteous-indignation-tweeting to get their personal army to boycott Nature until they change it to say what the mob wants it to say. And I'm not being flip. For once.
It can be enforced by Nature refusing to publish papers with bad results, obviously.
Shouldn't nature already be doing that?
The question is how do you define bad results if you include provisions for socially constructed feelings about whether results are socially and politically correct or not.
I hope hope hope hope hope underneath all the crummy filler language and what appears to be rationalization for a distinctly unscientific expansion of editorial discretion to suppress unsightly factual results, Nature is simply saying: don't study social constructs, it's not scientific, a phrase with which I think I loosely agree (without deeper thought as to whether there are valid situations to study socially constructed groups that can't be better expressed by studying the non-social-construct characteristic).
If that's all this is, I think we'll be fine. But I have a real hard time believing that Nature would allow a paper that found there to be cognitive discrepancies between people with genealogical lineages that closely align to the socially constructed races, under these new guidelines, since arguably the "effects on society" might be negative.
And I know people who would ignore the science and fight to the metaphorical death to suppress that type of information regardless of the terminology used. So, understandably, I'm not super confident this will be handled carefully and appropriately. Notice there is no burden of proof or scientific rigor required to determine that the effects some some research are negatively impacting society. A presumption that they might is all that's needed. I worry scientific pursuit will suffer.
The question is how do you define bad results if you include provisions for socially constructed feelings about whether results are socially and politically correct or not.
I hope hope hope hope hope underneath all the crummy filler language and what appears to be rationalization for a distinctly unscientific expansion of editorial discretion to suppress unsightly factual results, Nature is simply saying: don't study social constructs, it's not scientific, a phrase with which I think I loosely agree (without deeper thought as to whether there are valid situations to study socially constructed groups that can't be better expressed by studying the non-social-construct characteristic).
If that's all this is, I think we'll be fine. But I have a real hard time believing that Nature would allow a paper that found there to be cognitive discrepancies between people with genealogical lineages that closely align to the socially constructed races, under these new guidelines, since arguably the "effects on society" might be negative.
And I know people who would ignore the science and fight to the metaphorical death to suppress that type of information regardless of the terminology used. So, understandably, I'm not super confident this will be handled carefully and appropriately. Notice there is no burden of proof or scientific rigor required to determine that the effects some some research are negatively impacting society. A presumption that they might is all that's needed. I worry scientific pursuit will suffer.
> Nature is simply saying: don't study social constructs, it's not scientific, a phrase with which I think I loosely agree
A lot of the time, when someone in the Humanities use the term "Social Construct" they mean a categorization scheme that have overlapping categories, especially when used by someone in a way they don't like.
Someone with some level of understanding of natural science knows that this problem apply applies to a multitude of category schemes, if not most. In biology, one could argue that our definition of a "species" is a social construct. Even alive today, there are plenty of animals that exist on a continuum between different "species", and over evolutionary time, every living organism exists on this same continuum, and at the start, there were even no clear distinction between living and non-living.
The person in the Humanities like to use the word "essentialism", while still giving Humans special knowledge, when in reality we all live on a continuum that includes monkeys, fish, rocks and oceans. We're all recombinations of atoms and ions.
Still, there ARE clear and real patterns in this madness, and most of science is precisely about understanding these patterns. While we DO exist on a continuum, most of the continuum is empty, and especially if we consider only one snapshot of time.
A biologist can talk about "tigers" without making an effort to consider ligers and tigons, or pre-historic ancestors of modern-day tigers that were similar but not identical to modern tigers.
Biologists will also use the terms male and female tigers, knowing that the intermediaries are vanishingly rare. The continuum between them is there, but mostly empty.
Or a physicist may even speak about a "red" laser, knowing perfectly well that the wavelength used to separate "red" from "orange" is a "human construct".
So, if someone claims that "biological sex" is a human construct, they may be correct in some uninteresting way, but are primarily just obfuscating.
A lot of the time, when someone in the Humanities use the term "Social Construct" they mean a categorization scheme that have overlapping categories, especially when used by someone in a way they don't like.
Someone with some level of understanding of natural science knows that this problem apply applies to a multitude of category schemes, if not most. In biology, one could argue that our definition of a "species" is a social construct. Even alive today, there are plenty of animals that exist on a continuum between different "species", and over evolutionary time, every living organism exists on this same continuum, and at the start, there were even no clear distinction between living and non-living.
The person in the Humanities like to use the word "essentialism", while still giving Humans special knowledge, when in reality we all live on a continuum that includes monkeys, fish, rocks and oceans. We're all recombinations of atoms and ions.
Still, there ARE clear and real patterns in this madness, and most of science is precisely about understanding these patterns. While we DO exist on a continuum, most of the continuum is empty, and especially if we consider only one snapshot of time.
A biologist can talk about "tigers" without making an effort to consider ligers and tigons, or pre-historic ancestors of modern-day tigers that were similar but not identical to modern tigers.
Biologists will also use the terms male and female tigers, knowing that the intermediaries are vanishingly rare. The continuum between them is there, but mostly empty.
Or a physicist may even speak about a "red" laser, knowing perfectly well that the wavelength used to separate "red" from "orange" is a "human construct".
So, if someone claims that "biological sex" is a human construct, they may be correct in some uninteresting way, but are primarily just obfuscating.
>This is worse than religion because it’s pretending to be rational. And many many people will be fooled.
I hate to make the comparison because it's such a trope, but, IMO this is one of the most insidious things the Nazis did to indoctrinate the population:
They did things like send people into schools and they would cherry-pick the weakest, least intelligent, least-liked Jewish kid they could find and set him alongside the most athletic, attractive, smart, well-liked Aryan looking kid.
They'd bring them both up in front of the class and from that point on, they'd use "scientific" discussion and observation of their qualities to convince the kids that the Aryan kids were superior in every way. I'll tell you what, I was a pretty savy independent thinker and empathetic kid, but I really think I might have fallen for that type of technique, masquerading as science.
I hate to make the comparison because it's such a trope, but, IMO this is one of the most insidious things the Nazis did to indoctrinate the population:
They did things like send people into schools and they would cherry-pick the weakest, least intelligent, least-liked Jewish kid they could find and set him alongside the most athletic, attractive, smart, well-liked Aryan looking kid.
They'd bring them both up in front of the class and from that point on, they'd use "scientific" discussion and observation of their qualities to convince the kids that the Aryan kids were superior in every way. I'll tell you what, I was a pretty savy independent thinker and empathetic kid, but I really think I might have fallen for that type of technique, masquerading as science.
Good thing this practice has since ceased, and is entirely absent from movies and news reporting, where care is taken that even the most maligned groups are represented by, well, representative individuals, instead of cherry-picking the most unlikable members.
I assume you're being facetious?
Hey at least Stranger Things had one semi-likable Russian.
Stranger things has had many likeable Russians though?
For sufficiently small values of "many" and broad definitions of "likeable", perhaps...
Ok 2 now
and this is, if you read the actual guidelines proposed, exactly what they are guarding against: inappropriate overgeneralization.
Guarding against overgeneralization is not something we need new scientific heresy rules to prevent. It's already part of being a good scientist. It's also a subjective bar, and adding "inappropriate" to that makes it entirely fungible.
Moreover, I've spent the last 2+ years horrified by how willing "scientists" have been to generalize to wild real-world conclusions from miniscule data based on Twitter outrage, so I have zero faith that a board of clerics is going to use these rules with magnanimity. Whichever political faction that controls the board will be tempted to define "inappropriate" to mean "whatever conclusion we don't like".
Just to make it concrete: run an RCT that shows that masks don't have any effect on Covid transmission? Good luck getting that published in a top journal, even today. With these new rules, literally anyone who doesn't like the conclusions will claim that the result is an "overgeneralization". There will be no study large enough to satisfy the clerisy...unless The Science says something approved, of course.
---
Edit: and lest you think I am exaggerating with my example, consider the following, directly quoted from the new guidelines:
> Harms can also arise indirectly, as a result of the publication of a research project or a piece of scholarly communication – for instance, stigmatization of a vulnerable human group or potential use of the results of research for unintended purposes (e.g., public policies that undermine human rights or misuse of information to threaten public health).
They're literally saying that they're open to censoring research that might be "misused" to "threaten public health". And they've defined it broadly enough that pretty much anything that displeases "a vulnerable human group" can be covered. Convenient.
Moreover, I've spent the last 2+ years horrified by how willing "scientists" have been to generalize to wild real-world conclusions from miniscule data based on Twitter outrage, so I have zero faith that a board of clerics is going to use these rules with magnanimity. Whichever political faction that controls the board will be tempted to define "inappropriate" to mean "whatever conclusion we don't like".
Just to make it concrete: run an RCT that shows that masks don't have any effect on Covid transmission? Good luck getting that published in a top journal, even today. With these new rules, literally anyone who doesn't like the conclusions will claim that the result is an "overgeneralization". There will be no study large enough to satisfy the clerisy...unless The Science says something approved, of course.
---
Edit: and lest you think I am exaggerating with my example, consider the following, directly quoted from the new guidelines:
> Harms can also arise indirectly, as a result of the publication of a research project or a piece of scholarly communication – for instance, stigmatization of a vulnerable human group or potential use of the results of research for unintended purposes (e.g., public policies that undermine human rights or misuse of information to threaten public health).
They're literally saying that they're open to censoring research that might be "misused" to "threaten public health". And they've defined it broadly enough that pretty much anything that displeases "a vulnerable human group" can be covered. Convenient.
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Many religions start out pretending to be rational. It just so happens that a millennium or two later, science may have advanced to a point where religion starts to look more and more allegorical.
The statement from Nature has been very carefully worded.
The quote in the parent comment seems to suggest that perfectly valid scientific findings should be withheld if there is a possibility that bad people would misuse them. The consequence of this of course would be a complete victory of "Blank Slate"[1] Dogma (because any scientific finding that finds differences between social groups could be misused to undermine the human rights of one group).
And yet the statement never quite explicitly says findings should be withheld only because they could be misused. Rather it says that research that contains contain hate speech, etc. should perhaps not be published. It says authors should consider the potential harm of their research, and so on.
The intended result I think is a sort of chilling effect with plausible deniability. It pleases the inquisition, and at the same time leaves the scientists with a remainder of self-respect. I am not sure how long this delicate truce can last.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate
The quote in the parent comment seems to suggest that perfectly valid scientific findings should be withheld if there is a possibility that bad people would misuse them. The consequence of this of course would be a complete victory of "Blank Slate"[1] Dogma (because any scientific finding that finds differences between social groups could be misused to undermine the human rights of one group).
And yet the statement never quite explicitly says findings should be withheld only because they could be misused. Rather it says that research that contains contain hate speech, etc. should perhaps not be published. It says authors should consider the potential harm of their research, and so on.
The intended result I think is a sort of chilling effect with plausible deniability. It pleases the inquisition, and at the same time leaves the scientists with a remainder of self-respect. I am not sure how long this delicate truce can last.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate
“Researchers should be free to pursue lines of inquiry and the communication of knowledge and ideas without fear of repression or censorship. At the same time, they have the ethical obligation to uphold intellectual integrity and avoid preventable harms that may arise in the course of research or its communication.”
Alternatively, it could be saying a lot of bullshit gets published because people are incentivized to publish crap research (see replication crisis). So, if you know it’s crap and it’s also likely to be harmful perhaps consider before you publish it.
And that’s the thing, if you assume the worst interpretation possible you can be offended by anything.
Alternatively, it could be saying a lot of bullshit gets published because people are incentivized to publish crap research (see replication crisis). So, if you know it’s crap and it’s also likely to be harmful perhaps consider before you publish it.
And that’s the thing, if you assume the worst interpretation possible you can be offended by anything.
My charitable interpretation is that Nature is just reminding the academic community that you can’t research social constructs because they’re all made up and the points don’t matter, use more “scientific” terms, plz.
But then why write what was wrote? Why build up a “science can be socially harmful” thesis and then argue that may and could should govern is and does? Science should always be accurate. Nature didn't just learn this, that’s been the status quo all along.
The only reasonable interpretation is that Nature is defending a change.
To your example: you don't need social constructs to explain the replication crisis (“studies that leverage socially constructed ideas can be replicable). You don’t need social harm either (non-replicable studies that are socially good exist).
You said it best yourself: if you assume the worst interpretation possible, you can be offended by anything.
Nature is asking researchers to assume the worst interpretation of their results and, if it would be socially harmful, please not to publish them. And BTW you were wrong to ask the question in the first place since social constructs are post modern and reject western liberal interrogation.
But then why write what was wrote? Why build up a “science can be socially harmful” thesis and then argue that may and could should govern is and does? Science should always be accurate. Nature didn't just learn this, that’s been the status quo all along.
The only reasonable interpretation is that Nature is defending a change.
To your example: you don't need social constructs to explain the replication crisis (“studies that leverage socially constructed ideas can be replicable). You don’t need social harm either (non-replicable studies that are socially good exist).
You said it best yourself: if you assume the worst interpretation possible, you can be offended by anything.
Nature is asking researchers to assume the worst interpretation of their results and, if it would be socially harmful, please not to publish them. And BTW you were wrong to ask the question in the first place since social constructs are post modern and reject western liberal interrogation.
> perfectly valid scientific findings should be withheld if there is a possibility that bad people would misuse them.
This approach basically means that each and every scientific finding should be withheld (better yet, never produced) because chances are high that a bad actor would try to use it for evil purposes.
Mathematics has run into it with encryption: for fundamental reasons, it cannot be made hard only against bad guys, but penetrable to law enforcement.
We should stop any progress if we want to guarantee that any new evil would never apper. The promise of the progress is that it brings more good than evil, more jet liners than jet fighters.
This approach basically means that each and every scientific finding should be withheld (better yet, never produced) because chances are high that a bad actor would try to use it for evil purposes.
Mathematics has run into it with encryption: for fundamental reasons, it cannot be made hard only against bad guys, but penetrable to law enforcement.
We should stop any progress if we want to guarantee that any new evil would never apper. The promise of the progress is that it brings more good than evil, more jet liners than jet fighters.
Imagine the confusion that would result by future CRISPR modifications to adults that would increase intelligence by replacing genes found in less intelligent people with genes found in more intelligent people. Imagine if those genes are only found in certain races. I guess we can't have that according to the journal's rules, can we? You will simply not be allowed to research or publish that because it would break the "blank slate" narrative even though it would provide a huge benefit to humanity.
I don’t see why you’d need to consider race at all in this scenario? You find intelligence genes in some people, give them to others. Anything to do with race would seem to be an unnecessary extra step.
You’re arguing from a false premise. The Race to DNA link is weak. You get correlation easy enough, but the only time genes are race specific is when they only show up in a single family or similar tiny fraction of a population.
This shouldn’t be surprising when people for example categorize someone with 3 white grandparents and 1 black grandparent as black.
This shouldn’t be surprising when people for example categorize someone with 3 white grandparents and 1 black grandparent as black.
> In some cases, however, potential harms to the populations studied may outweigh the benefit of publication.
I see a counterfactual claim ("may outweigh") and therefore an opportunity for some causal identification, i.e. a scientific answer!
An RCT would be ideal, but we might also look to the literature on attitude change in general to see how new information impacts discourse and attitudes. Here's a few things off the top of my head:
* https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/692739
* https://alexandercoppock.com/graham_coppock_2021.html
* https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-psych-...
I think that in general, researchers find racial/prejudicial attitudes very resistant to change, either in an anti-prejudicial or "confirm my existing biases" direction...
I see a counterfactual claim ("may outweigh") and therefore an opportunity for some causal identification, i.e. a scientific answer!
An RCT would be ideal, but we might also look to the literature on attitude change in general to see how new information impacts discourse and attitudes. Here's a few things off the top of my head:
* https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/692739
* https://alexandercoppock.com/graham_coppock_2021.html
* https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-psych-...
I think that in general, researchers find racial/prejudicial attitudes very resistant to change, either in an anti-prejudicial or "confirm my existing biases" direction...
Beautifully put. What I loved about science growing up is that it valued truth and knowledge (or such was the impression I had of science in history). If someone argues for self-censoring truth/knowledge to avoid XYZ values today, they would've been the same people to argue self-censoring the truth about heliocentrism yesterday. It's a tragedy to see science fall prey to dogmatism and I hope we can see some kind of new field emerge that has the courage to pursue truth first and worry about implications second.
I think that's a pretty unreasonable comparison. There's a difference between religious dogma which makes claims about reality, and norms or ethics. Discrimination and harm as discussed in this document isn't about factual findings, but is about "superiority or inferiority of one human group over another" (i.e. a value judgement), "the rights and dignities of an individual or human group" (i.e. social norms and conventions), "text or images that ... disparage" (again, value judgement), "embody singular, privileged perspectives" (an issue of viewpoint, not disagreement about facts in reality).
None of these prevent researchers from sharing their evidence-based conclusions, only the projection of value, status, dignity, or privilege onto those findings. As a society, we can agree to be civil, respectful and uphold particular values while we investigate objective reality.
Trying to claim that an ethical stance for non-discrimination is equivalent to creationism or geocentrism is making type error; one makes claims about norms and how we should behave, and one makes claims about how the world works whether irrespective of our beliefs or behavior.
None of these prevent researchers from sharing their evidence-based conclusions, only the projection of value, status, dignity, or privilege onto those findings. As a society, we can agree to be civil, respectful and uphold particular values while we investigate objective reality.
Trying to claim that an ethical stance for non-discrimination is equivalent to creationism or geocentrism is making type error; one makes claims about norms and how we should behave, and one makes claims about how the world works whether irrespective of our beliefs or behavior.
But that’s not what the quoted text is saying. It’s saying research whose outcomes could be “harmful” (where the definition of “harmful” is very broad) may have harms that “outweigh” the benefits… implying it shouldn’t be done.
And now you’ve attached a high leverage handle to research allocation/gatekeeping and put it in deeply politicized hands that don’t care about the research.
And now you’ve attached a high leverage handle to research allocation/gatekeeping and put it in deeply politicized hands that don’t care about the research.
> And now you’ve attached a high leverage handle to research allocation/gatekeeping and put it in deeply politicized hands that don’t care about the research.
It's the editorial board of a journal. Gatekeeping published research is literally their job, always has been. And I think it's fair to conclude from their vocation that they care more about the research and less about the politics than all the non-scientists who've chimed in to express disagreement with the politics of their decision...
Comparing an article outlining bunch of guidelines about language and requests to be careful and clear about sampling to the medieval Catholic Church is no more reasonable than comparing everyone decrying the concept of ethical barriers to research to Dr Mengele.
It's the editorial board of a journal. Gatekeeping published research is literally their job, always has been. And I think it's fair to conclude from their vocation that they care more about the research and less about the politics than all the non-scientists who've chimed in to express disagreement with the politics of their decision...
Comparing an article outlining bunch of guidelines about language and requests to be careful and clear about sampling to the medieval Catholic Church is no more reasonable than comparing everyone decrying the concept of ethical barriers to research to Dr Mengele.
> And I think it's fair to conclude from their vocation that they care more about the research and less about the politics than all the non-scientists who've chimed in to express disagreement with the politics of their decision...
No, it's not fair to conclude.
A lot of us as practitioners in the field (engineers, data scientists, etc) must daily confront the conflict between social expectation (from managers, customers, etc.) and reality. On the other hand, an academic occupying a largely bureaucratic role within institutions that suffer from severe political monoculture might very well care more about their social standing than truth.
Anyone who has been paying attention will know the subtext of these guides. It is not an unreasonable assumption to see this as targeting legitimate scientific research that undermines the present political zeitgeist.
No, it's not fair to conclude.
A lot of us as practitioners in the field (engineers, data scientists, etc) must daily confront the conflict between social expectation (from managers, customers, etc.) and reality. On the other hand, an academic occupying a largely bureaucratic role within institutions that suffer from severe political monoculture might very well care more about their social standing than truth.
Anyone who has been paying attention will know the subtext of these guides. It is not an unreasonable assumption to see this as targeting legitimate scientific research that undermines the present political zeitgeist.
The difference between your two takes appears to be a Motte and Bailey.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
The question isn't whether abeppu's stance is valid, the question is: does their stance fully encompass the argument.
elefanten appears to be suggesting abeppu's stance is a Motte - that they're arguing a more defensible position (you shouldn't be able to publish research claiming one race is superior to another) rather than the real Bailey (anything deemed "harmful" can be filtered from scientific literature). The difference between these two arguments is pretty significant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
The question isn't whether abeppu's stance is valid, the question is: does their stance fully encompass the argument.
elefanten appears to be suggesting abeppu's stance is a Motte - that they're arguing a more defensible position (you shouldn't be able to publish research claiming one race is superior to another) rather than the real Bailey (anything deemed "harmful" can be filtered from scientific literature). The difference between these two arguments is pretty significant.
I think that specific quote is actually ambiguous, as 'research' doesn't make a clear separation between the actual investigation and evidence vs the researcher's presentation of them. I think your characterization (about advocating that some research itself should not be done) is not actually what the document says.
So far as I can see, it's focused on _publication_ of particular _content_ (read: text) describing research.
> In some cases, however, potential harms to the populations studied may outweigh the benefit of publication.
> editors reserve the right to request modifications to (or correct or otherwise amend post-publication), and in severe cases refuse publication of (or retract post-publication)
So far as I can see, they're not advocating for new restrictions on what research ethically can be done, but they're saying that publication can on its own cause harms. And they seem to be focused on how findings are framed and communicated, rather than the objective content of the findings, with the implication that a suitably written article using respectful language would be considered publishable.
> authors should use inclusive, respectful, non-stigmatizing language in their submitted manuscripts.
> Biomedical studies should not conflate genetic ancestry (a biological construct) and race/ethnicity (sociopolitical constructs)
> Authors should use the terms sex (biological attribute) and gender (shaped by social and cultural circumstances) carefully in order to avoid confusing both terms.
So far as I can tell, e.g. one could study sex-linked difference in brain development, and find that one group is faster/more accurate/whatever on some task with subjects in an lab conditions, and so long as one (a) consistently distinguishes whether one is referring to sex or gender and (b) uses respectful and non-stigmatizing language, it would not be found to be unpublishable on these ethical grounds. But if in a conclusion section after having looked at sex differences, one throws out a broad gender stereotype "..and this validates the common belief that women are terrible at X", editors are entirely within their rights to insist on a modification.
This seems entirely reasonable, and is a kind of natural cover-your-ass stance for the modern era, where if they let through some great, ground-breaking research with a single racist or misogynist or homophobic statement tacked in somewhere, inevitably that part will be trotted out by trolls and politicians insisting that their weird stance is backed by science because of one line in a Nature article they didn't actually read.
So far as I can see, it's focused on _publication_ of particular _content_ (read: text) describing research.
> In some cases, however, potential harms to the populations studied may outweigh the benefit of publication.
> editors reserve the right to request modifications to (or correct or otherwise amend post-publication), and in severe cases refuse publication of (or retract post-publication)
So far as I can see, they're not advocating for new restrictions on what research ethically can be done, but they're saying that publication can on its own cause harms. And they seem to be focused on how findings are framed and communicated, rather than the objective content of the findings, with the implication that a suitably written article using respectful language would be considered publishable.
> authors should use inclusive, respectful, non-stigmatizing language in their submitted manuscripts.
> Biomedical studies should not conflate genetic ancestry (a biological construct) and race/ethnicity (sociopolitical constructs)
> Authors should use the terms sex (biological attribute) and gender (shaped by social and cultural circumstances) carefully in order to avoid confusing both terms.
So far as I can tell, e.g. one could study sex-linked difference in brain development, and find that one group is faster/more accurate/whatever on some task with subjects in an lab conditions, and so long as one (a) consistently distinguishes whether one is referring to sex or gender and (b) uses respectful and non-stigmatizing language, it would not be found to be unpublishable on these ethical grounds. But if in a conclusion section after having looked at sex differences, one throws out a broad gender stereotype "..and this validates the common belief that women are terrible at X", editors are entirely within their rights to insist on a modification.
This seems entirely reasonable, and is a kind of natural cover-your-ass stance for the modern era, where if they let through some great, ground-breaking research with a single racist or misogynist or homophobic statement tacked in somewhere, inevitably that part will be trotted out by trolls and politicians insisting that their weird stance is backed by science because of one line in a Nature article they didn't actually read.
> "The teachings of the Church must not be undermined by heliocentrism or evolution research, so findings in those areas will be strictly filtered for heresy before publication."
This is actually a bit of a historical myth that due to anti-religious bias prevails widely.
Contrary to widespread belief, the works of Charles Darwin were never on the Catholic Church's Index of Forbidden Books, nor did the Catholic Church ever state that Evolution as a theory could not be believed, but rather emphasized that a few specific theological events (a garden in which man fell) must remain, though the lead-up to those events was not rigidly defined. This is also why a Catholic priest is responsible for the Big Bang theory.
As for heliocentrism, this is also baloney as it was initially proposed by Nicolaus Copernicus, who was not censored for his beliefs[1], and also served as a Catholic canon (religious member but not necessarily a priest). This idea was backed by Galileo using astronomy, however, Galileo was tried for writings other than his heliocentrism that were arguably heretical (including attacks on the Pope within his work) and not necessarily for the heliocentric view itself, as seen by the Church making Copernicus mandatory reading in some universities for astronomy courses.
[1] The Roman Inquisition would later censor it for a short time, however, their main requirement was that it definitions be changed from fact to theory, and the Roman Inquisition actually used 13 mathematical arguments of their own from the astronomer Tycho Brahe, versus only 4 theological ones. The Spanish Inquisition never censored the book. Even though Brahe was later proven incorrect in his arguments, he was still one of the most accurate astronomers of the era, and Johannes Kepler (of the Kepler Space Telescope fame) would later use his measurements to create the 3 planetary laws of motion. In any event, it would appear that this censorship of Copernicus requiring revisions before publications was due to Copernicus' overconfidence in potentially erroneous mathematics, rather than a theological dispute.
This is actually a bit of a historical myth that due to anti-religious bias prevails widely.
Contrary to widespread belief, the works of Charles Darwin were never on the Catholic Church's Index of Forbidden Books, nor did the Catholic Church ever state that Evolution as a theory could not be believed, but rather emphasized that a few specific theological events (a garden in which man fell) must remain, though the lead-up to those events was not rigidly defined. This is also why a Catholic priest is responsible for the Big Bang theory.
As for heliocentrism, this is also baloney as it was initially proposed by Nicolaus Copernicus, who was not censored for his beliefs[1], and also served as a Catholic canon (religious member but not necessarily a priest). This idea was backed by Galileo using astronomy, however, Galileo was tried for writings other than his heliocentrism that were arguably heretical (including attacks on the Pope within his work) and not necessarily for the heliocentric view itself, as seen by the Church making Copernicus mandatory reading in some universities for astronomy courses.
[1] The Roman Inquisition would later censor it for a short time, however, their main requirement was that it definitions be changed from fact to theory, and the Roman Inquisition actually used 13 mathematical arguments of their own from the astronomer Tycho Brahe, versus only 4 theological ones. The Spanish Inquisition never censored the book. Even though Brahe was later proven incorrect in his arguments, he was still one of the most accurate astronomers of the era, and Johannes Kepler (of the Kepler Space Telescope fame) would later use his measurements to create the 3 planetary laws of motion. In any event, it would appear that this censorship of Copernicus requiring revisions before publications was due to Copernicus' overconfidence in potentially erroneous mathematics, rather than a theological dispute.
without handy references, I believe that part of the significance of Church dogma on stars and celestial mechanics, was that astronomy was widely practiced by many civilizations to varying rigorous results, but that science and most all abstract learning was also connected to religious or mythological meanings. Different societies, in particular the overall Muslim world of today, viewed the movements of the stars and planets with different meanings, which sometimes were taken very seriously. This connects to the imagery of the three wise men at christian nativity, who follow a star but give their gifts to the newborn.
Social prestige associated with higher learning was a subject of rivalry and competition, as most things were in those places at that time it seems.
Social prestige associated with higher learning was a subject of rivalry and competition, as most things were in those places at that time it seems.
I've been reading some old books lately including:
* From Atomos to Atom
* From Alchemy to Chemistry
* The Main Currents of Marxism Part 1 (not about Marxism - just a bunch of, mostly Christian, philosophers)
* The Skeptical Chemist
* Some of Descartes' work
I've noticed two notable things. First, the early Christian thinkers were _extremely_ logical. They did not shy away from human observation and philosophy, they embraced it. They spent a a majority of their study time reconciling human knowledge with scripture to try and understand their place in the world. Churches sponsored a lot of this research and invested heavily in making their religions consistent with human knowledge.
Second, not only did the church invest heavily in making their religion consistent with human knowledge, all of humanity did the same. So much effort went into reconciling the early greek philosophers with modern observation and religion. From medicine, to law, to religion, to alchemy - everything was very inter-dependent and few (if any) bodies of knowledge could stand on their own, they appealed to facts from diverse philosophies to justify their stances.
You see a pattern in the 1500s-1700s where, in a very short period of time, humans got _very good_ at attaching philosophy to physical phenomenon and reconciling what was observed with what they believed. During this period, pretty much every branch of human understanding underwent unprecedented massive paradigm shifts. Huge amounts of what was "known" were, fairly quickly, toppled when extremely foundational beliefs were questioned (i.e. the 3 element theory vs. the 4 element theory). A lot of folks were fairly invested in what they "knew" and didn't react well to the rug being pulled out from under them. It wasn't just "the church" that had a bad reaction to some of these thinkers; medicine rejected many early scientists like Paracelsus (generous to call them scientists) striping them of their credentials, jobs, etc.
I guess what I'm learning is that European history was a lot more messy than I thought it to be (shocker, I know). And it's really fascinating seeing these currents of thought develop over time. It's pretty amazing that it took us nearly 2000 years to question Aristotle and, once we did, the rapid progress that followed. It's only been about 400 years since we thought maybe there were 3 elements instead of 4, and we are already seriously considering colonizing another planet.
* From Atomos to Atom
* From Alchemy to Chemistry
* The Main Currents of Marxism Part 1 (not about Marxism - just a bunch of, mostly Christian, philosophers)
* The Skeptical Chemist
* Some of Descartes' work
I've noticed two notable things. First, the early Christian thinkers were _extremely_ logical. They did not shy away from human observation and philosophy, they embraced it. They spent a a majority of their study time reconciling human knowledge with scripture to try and understand their place in the world. Churches sponsored a lot of this research and invested heavily in making their religions consistent with human knowledge.
Second, not only did the church invest heavily in making their religion consistent with human knowledge, all of humanity did the same. So much effort went into reconciling the early greek philosophers with modern observation and religion. From medicine, to law, to religion, to alchemy - everything was very inter-dependent and few (if any) bodies of knowledge could stand on their own, they appealed to facts from diverse philosophies to justify their stances.
You see a pattern in the 1500s-1700s where, in a very short period of time, humans got _very good_ at attaching philosophy to physical phenomenon and reconciling what was observed with what they believed. During this period, pretty much every branch of human understanding underwent unprecedented massive paradigm shifts. Huge amounts of what was "known" were, fairly quickly, toppled when extremely foundational beliefs were questioned (i.e. the 3 element theory vs. the 4 element theory). A lot of folks were fairly invested in what they "knew" and didn't react well to the rug being pulled out from under them. It wasn't just "the church" that had a bad reaction to some of these thinkers; medicine rejected many early scientists like Paracelsus (generous to call them scientists) striping them of their credentials, jobs, etc.
I guess what I'm learning is that European history was a lot more messy than I thought it to be (shocker, I know). And it's really fascinating seeing these currents of thought develop over time. It's pretty amazing that it took us nearly 2000 years to question Aristotle and, once we did, the rapid progress that followed. It's only been about 400 years since we thought maybe there were 3 elements instead of 4, and we are already seriously considering colonizing another planet.
Can you provide some books or links if so that I can read up on these misconceptions?
For heliocentrism the article "The Great Ptolemaic Smackdown and Down-and-Dirty Mud-Wrassle" by Michael F. Flynn from the Jan/Feb 2013 issue of Analog is pretty good. Here's a scan online [1].
The Church's position at the time was that God made the universe, and if empirical evidence from observing that universe clearly showed that it did not work the way the Church thought the Bible said it worked, then the Church must have misinterpreted the Bible.
Galileo's problems came from a combination of several factors, none of which stem from proposing a non-geocentric universe.
1. Galileo's heliocentric theory wasn't actually better at explaining observations than geocentric theories were. Galileo, like the Church believed in an intelligently designed universe created by an all-powerful God. He believed that such a God would choose laws of physics that were beautiful and elegant.
Where his heliocentric approach would require something non-beautiful or inelegant to fit observation he dismissed the observations as optical illusions or observational error.
It's commonly believed that the moons of Jupiter and the phases of Venus rule out geocentric theories, but that is not quite correct. They rule out the Ptolemaic system which was the leading geocentric theory, but they do not rule out the Tychonic geocentric system.
2. He had a very big ego.
3. He was an asshole. He was very intolerant and rude to his rivals and to those he considered to be his inferiors. And thanks to that big ego "inferiors" included pretty much everyone else.
4. He was a celebrity who was regularly invited to hang out with the rich and powerful.
5. He had an atrocious sense of politics. He either failed to realize or ignored that some of the people he was an asshole towards had the wealth and power to make his life miserable if he didn't stop being an asshole toward them.
[1] https://faculty.fiu.edu/~blissl/Flynngs.pdf
The Church's position at the time was that God made the universe, and if empirical evidence from observing that universe clearly showed that it did not work the way the Church thought the Bible said it worked, then the Church must have misinterpreted the Bible.
Galileo's problems came from a combination of several factors, none of which stem from proposing a non-geocentric universe.
1. Galileo's heliocentric theory wasn't actually better at explaining observations than geocentric theories were. Galileo, like the Church believed in an intelligently designed universe created by an all-powerful God. He believed that such a God would choose laws of physics that were beautiful and elegant.
Where his heliocentric approach would require something non-beautiful or inelegant to fit observation he dismissed the observations as optical illusions or observational error.
It's commonly believed that the moons of Jupiter and the phases of Venus rule out geocentric theories, but that is not quite correct. They rule out the Ptolemaic system which was the leading geocentric theory, but they do not rule out the Tychonic geocentric system.
2. He had a very big ego.
3. He was an asshole. He was very intolerant and rude to his rivals and to those he considered to be his inferiors. And thanks to that big ego "inferiors" included pretty much everyone else.
4. He was a celebrity who was regularly invited to hang out with the rich and powerful.
5. He had an atrocious sense of politics. He either failed to realize or ignored that some of the people he was an asshole towards had the wealth and power to make his life miserable if he didn't stop being an asshole toward them.
[1] https://faculty.fiu.edu/~blissl/Flynngs.pdf
Another good introduction is "Worldviews" by Richard DeWitt. It's a introductory book on the philosophy of science but a big part of it discusses this.
Bearing False Witness: Debunking Centuries of Anti-Catholic History - https://smile.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1599474999 is a good overview with lots of references for further research.
Try here for a purely academic overview (no religious Catholic websites or other "biased" commentators for this), that was also very recent. There are plenty of other sources, but this was just what I found first that was academic in scope.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-30833-9_...
I would also recommend reading about Nicolas Copernicus (geocentrism before Galileo), as well as Georges Lemaître (Catholic Priest who had idea for Big Bang), and Gregor Mendel (before Evolution, experiments with Genetics).
Example: "In Spain, new cosmological discoveries and ideas were discussed at both the universities and at the Casa and Consejo. For example, Jerónimo Muñoz (ca. 1520–1591), who taught astronomy and mathematics at the universities of Valencia and Salamanca, was one of the many European scientists to observe and write about the supernova of 1572. For Muñoz, the supernova challenged the Aristotelian notion that change was impossible in the celestial realm. In some of his unpublished work and letters to other European astronomers like Tycho Brahe (1546–1601), he espoused an understanding of the relationship between the celestial and terrestrial realms drawn from Stoic philosophers. He denied the existence of celestial orbs and instead asserted that the planets moved through the heavens like birds through the air or fish through the water. He also discussed Nicolaus Copernicus’ (1473–1543) heliocentric system with his students, although he did not endorse it (Navarro-Brotóns 1995, 57). In fact, as Victor Navarro-Brotóns has shown, “the work of Copernicus circulated freely in sixteenth-century Spain, where its technical and empirical aspects were greatly admired and used” (Navarro-Brotóns 1995, 63). In 1561, the statutes of the University of Salamanca specified that in the second year of the astronomy course the professor must teach either “the Almagest of Ptolemy, or its Epitome by Regiomontanus, or Geber, or Copernicus,” and that the students could vote on which text they wanted (Navarro-Brotóns 1995, 55). In 1594, these statutes were amended and the teaching of Copernicus was made mandatory, no longer subject to the vote of the students (Navarro-Brotóns 1995, 59). The 1594, statutes were reproduced with no change in 1625, despite the prohibition of Copernicus’ work by the Roman Inquisition in 1616 (Navarro-Brotóns 1995, 60). In fact, De revolutionibus was “never placed on any Spanish Inquisitorial index” (Navarro-Brotóns 1995, 63), which does not mean Spanish astronomers were free to adopt heliocentrism but does indicate that it was possible to teach and discuss Copernicus in Spanish universities. As Navarro-Brotóns notes, only one Spanish scholar, Diego de Zúñiga (1536–1597), is known to have actually endorsed the Copernican system. Others used the Prutenic tables, which were calculated using Copernicus’ mathematical models, and other parameters drawn from De revolutionibus, in much the same way that Copernicus was taught at the University of Wittenberg (Navarro-Brotóns 1995, 59; Westman 1975). Finally, interest in Copernicus spread outside universities, because the Prutenic tables and other technical aspects of Copernicus’ work had applications in navigation. For example, Juan Cedillo Diaz (ca. 1560–1625), who studied at Salamanca and became chief cosmographer at the Consejo de Indias and professor at the Mathematical Academy in Seville in 1611, made a free Spanish translation of the first three books of Copernicus’ De revolutionibus sometime between 1620 and 1625 (Granada and Crespo 2019; Navarro-Brotóns 1995, 63; Esteban Piñeiro and Gómez Crespo 1991)."
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-30833-9_...
I would also recommend reading about Nicolas Copernicus (geocentrism before Galileo), as well as Georges Lemaître (Catholic Priest who had idea for Big Bang), and Gregor Mendel (before Evolution, experiments with Genetics).
Example: "In Spain, new cosmological discoveries and ideas were discussed at both the universities and at the Casa and Consejo. For example, Jerónimo Muñoz (ca. 1520–1591), who taught astronomy and mathematics at the universities of Valencia and Salamanca, was one of the many European scientists to observe and write about the supernova of 1572. For Muñoz, the supernova challenged the Aristotelian notion that change was impossible in the celestial realm. In some of his unpublished work and letters to other European astronomers like Tycho Brahe (1546–1601), he espoused an understanding of the relationship between the celestial and terrestrial realms drawn from Stoic philosophers. He denied the existence of celestial orbs and instead asserted that the planets moved through the heavens like birds through the air or fish through the water. He also discussed Nicolaus Copernicus’ (1473–1543) heliocentric system with his students, although he did not endorse it (Navarro-Brotóns 1995, 57). In fact, as Victor Navarro-Brotóns has shown, “the work of Copernicus circulated freely in sixteenth-century Spain, where its technical and empirical aspects were greatly admired and used” (Navarro-Brotóns 1995, 63). In 1561, the statutes of the University of Salamanca specified that in the second year of the astronomy course the professor must teach either “the Almagest of Ptolemy, or its Epitome by Regiomontanus, or Geber, or Copernicus,” and that the students could vote on which text they wanted (Navarro-Brotóns 1995, 55). In 1594, these statutes were amended and the teaching of Copernicus was made mandatory, no longer subject to the vote of the students (Navarro-Brotóns 1995, 59). The 1594, statutes were reproduced with no change in 1625, despite the prohibition of Copernicus’ work by the Roman Inquisition in 1616 (Navarro-Brotóns 1995, 60). In fact, De revolutionibus was “never placed on any Spanish Inquisitorial index” (Navarro-Brotóns 1995, 63), which does not mean Spanish astronomers were free to adopt heliocentrism but does indicate that it was possible to teach and discuss Copernicus in Spanish universities. As Navarro-Brotóns notes, only one Spanish scholar, Diego de Zúñiga (1536–1597), is known to have actually endorsed the Copernican system. Others used the Prutenic tables, which were calculated using Copernicus’ mathematical models, and other parameters drawn from De revolutionibus, in much the same way that Copernicus was taught at the University of Wittenberg (Navarro-Brotóns 1995, 59; Westman 1975). Finally, interest in Copernicus spread outside universities, because the Prutenic tables and other technical aspects of Copernicus’ work had applications in navigation. For example, Juan Cedillo Diaz (ca. 1560–1625), who studied at Salamanca and became chief cosmographer at the Consejo de Indias and professor at the Mathematical Academy in Seville in 1611, made a free Spanish translation of the first three books of Copernicus’ De revolutionibus sometime between 1620 and 1625 (Granada and Crespo 2019; Navarro-Brotóns 1995, 63; Esteban Piñeiro and Gómez Crespo 1991)."
Arthur Koestler in "Sleepwalkers" cites numerous criticisms from Vatican backed scholars that strongly suggest even though Copernicus may not have faced the unbridled legal wrath of the Church, that his career and reputation were severely tested for doing so.
See my comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32597071 for information about how Copernicus was received academically from an academic's point of view. Also worth recognizing is that it was Protestants, not Catholics, who were by far the harshest towards Copernicus, as Copernicus was harshly mocked by Luther and his predecessor Melanchthon.
Melanchthon:
"Some people believe that it is excellent and correct to work out a thing as absurd as did that Sarmatian [i.e., Polish] astronomer who moves the earth and stops the sun. Indeed, wise rulers should have curbed such light-mindedness."
"The eyes are witnesses that the heavens revolve in the space of twenty-four hours. But certain men, either from the love of novelty, or to make a display of ingenuity, have concluded that the earth moves; and they maintain that neither the eighth sphere [the celestial sphere] nor the sun revolves. … Now, it is a want of honesty and decency to assert such notions publicly, and the example is pernicious."
Luther:
"People gave ear to an upstart astrologer who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon….This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us [Joshua 10:13] that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth."
Also recognize your book is from 1959, before the internet, before many books were digitized, and before many of these things were debunked.
Melanchthon:
"Some people believe that it is excellent and correct to work out a thing as absurd as did that Sarmatian [i.e., Polish] astronomer who moves the earth and stops the sun. Indeed, wise rulers should have curbed such light-mindedness."
"The eyes are witnesses that the heavens revolve in the space of twenty-four hours. But certain men, either from the love of novelty, or to make a display of ingenuity, have concluded that the earth moves; and they maintain that neither the eighth sphere [the celestial sphere] nor the sun revolves. … Now, it is a want of honesty and decency to assert such notions publicly, and the example is pernicious."
Luther:
"People gave ear to an upstart astrologer who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon….This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us [Joshua 10:13] that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth."
Also recognize your book is from 1959, before the internet, before many books were digitized, and before many of these things were debunked.
Science must always report the truth. What was the old saying? "That which can be destroyed by truth, should be"?
Whenever science attempts to prop up political regimes by obscuring the truth, then tragedy and travesty occurs.
Whenever science attempts to prop up political regimes by obscuring the truth, then tragedy and travesty occurs.
The first part is just basic science: don't draw generalized conclusions from data that was poorly sampled.
But I agree the second part is questionable. Scientists shouldn't decide whether something is right or wrong. They just conduct experiments, gather data, draw conclusions, and share the results. Obviously they should consider the ethical impacts of conducting their experiments, but beyond that, all valid conclusions should be welcome.
But I agree the second part is questionable. Scientists shouldn't decide whether something is right or wrong. They just conduct experiments, gather data, draw conclusions, and share the results. Obviously they should consider the ethical impacts of conducting their experiments, but beyond that, all valid conclusions should be welcome.
This alarmist comparison of yours would impress basically no one who has studied in relevant fields, such as bioethics. The relationship between ethics and research has a fascinating and sobering history, one full of richness, horror, and a good deal of quiet ego shattering awe at all the multitude of different ways of being human we have previously organised to eradicate.
The calls you see for greater attention to be paid to ethics in research are not coming from a sense of obsequioous piety and genuflection toward establishment interests wielding political power, but the exact opposite—a call to consider the effects on groups not wielding power, such as different minorities—and obscuring this crucial difference, the way your analogy does, comes pretty close to leaving your readers less informed about the issue of research ethic rigor than they were before encountering your comment.
Bioethics researchers are regularly coming across questions like this one:
Gay and lesbian people are no longer considered as having a disease or disorder by any reputable medical organisation, are experiencing, broadly, a widening acceptance from different societies and their governments. At the same time, there several prominent nations attempt to criminalise, suppress, ostracise and otherwise punish people for being gay or lesbian. Suppose tomorrow a set of genes are discovered that are strongly or even absolutely predictive of homosexual orientation. What would that look like for our society, when people could say have an embryological test that indicates whether their fetus is gay or not. Would we allow terminating pregnancy on the basis that the parents don't want to have a gay or lesbian child? What would the outcome of having a 'gay test' availble look like in the hands of oppressive regimes, like the Russian Federation. Would having that technology spark a literal genocide of sexual minorities there?
Perhaps you feel you can dismiss this as maybe you (mistakenly or not) picture your own country as unlikely to regress to legally enabling persecution of gay or lesbian people, and think issues outside your own country don't matter. I can tell you there is basically no country in the world that people in the trans community would feel safe in, if we took my above example of 'suppose someone invented a genetic test for being gay or lesbian' and replaced that hypothetical example to detect trans people and/or gender dysphoria instead.
The calls you see for greater attention to be paid to ethics in research are not coming from a sense of obsequioous piety and genuflection toward establishment interests wielding political power, but the exact opposite—a call to consider the effects on groups not wielding power, such as different minorities—and obscuring this crucial difference, the way your analogy does, comes pretty close to leaving your readers less informed about the issue of research ethic rigor than they were before encountering your comment.
Bioethics researchers are regularly coming across questions like this one:
Gay and lesbian people are no longer considered as having a disease or disorder by any reputable medical organisation, are experiencing, broadly, a widening acceptance from different societies and their governments. At the same time, there several prominent nations attempt to criminalise, suppress, ostracise and otherwise punish people for being gay or lesbian. Suppose tomorrow a set of genes are discovered that are strongly or even absolutely predictive of homosexual orientation. What would that look like for our society, when people could say have an embryological test that indicates whether their fetus is gay or not. Would we allow terminating pregnancy on the basis that the parents don't want to have a gay or lesbian child? What would the outcome of having a 'gay test' availble look like in the hands of oppressive regimes, like the Russian Federation. Would having that technology spark a literal genocide of sexual minorities there?
Perhaps you feel you can dismiss this as maybe you (mistakenly or not) picture your own country as unlikely to regress to legally enabling persecution of gay or lesbian people, and think issues outside your own country don't matter. I can tell you there is basically no country in the world that people in the trans community would feel safe in, if we took my above example of 'suppose someone invented a genetic test for being gay or lesbian' and replaced that hypothetical example to detect trans people and/or gender dysphoria instead.
If a group has power to prevent other people from writing or saying things about them that they do not like, even otherwise legitimate scientific findings in a scientific journal, I would say it is proof that they DO have power.
Kind of like how Putin and Xi are able to prevent citizens in their respective countries to write bad things about them.
> Would we allow terminating pregnancy on the basis that the parents don't want to have a gay or lesbian child?
Let's assume we're both pro choice, why should a mother be forced to carry a child in her womb that she doesn't want to give birth to?
How would sexual orientation be different from having an abortion after getting pregnant because it contradicts with her vacation plans, career or maybe the father was not one she wanted to have babies with?
Ok, I do know why, because it's the same as when people do not want to allow abortion when a baby is likely to have Down's syndrome or some other condition when born, as it is seen as invalidating the identity of those who already born with the same condition.
In my opinion, though, as long as we prioritize the interests of the mother (lets say that most will do that at least for the first trimester), the mother should decide what conditions are justifiable for having the abortion.
Kind of like how Putin and Xi are able to prevent citizens in their respective countries to write bad things about them.
> Would we allow terminating pregnancy on the basis that the parents don't want to have a gay or lesbian child?
Let's assume we're both pro choice, why should a mother be forced to carry a child in her womb that she doesn't want to give birth to?
How would sexual orientation be different from having an abortion after getting pregnant because it contradicts with her vacation plans, career or maybe the father was not one she wanted to have babies with?
Ok, I do know why, because it's the same as when people do not want to allow abortion when a baby is likely to have Down's syndrome or some other condition when born, as it is seen as invalidating the identity of those who already born with the same condition.
In my opinion, though, as long as we prioritize the interests of the mother (lets say that most will do that at least for the first trimester), the mother should decide what conditions are justifiable for having the abortion.
I feel like you've interpreted my comment mainly by the diving into the ethical content of the specific example I was using.
The point of my example, if I was unclear, was that ethical questions very demonstrably arise from scientific discovery, and demonstrably arise from the availability of technology. This point should be considered pretty hard to dispute. That being the case, when we see scientists getting together among themselves to try to better establish what responsibilities they have or do not have, that's broadly a good thing.
Could such a policy be misused in a bad way? Sure, absolutely, do doubt it could. But to me it seems historically illiterate that so many readers here immediately picture that "scientists decide they should have an ethics policy" could be used in harmful ways but these same readers struggle to picture that scientific discoveries themselves or technologies relating to these could also be used in harmful ways, and if so, whether that places ethical obligations on anybody at any point.
Perhaps, too, it ought to be considered that "scientists shouldn't decide to develop an ethics policy" is also a position itself, one that could also pretty obviously be used in harmful ways as well.
The point of my example, if I was unclear, was that ethical questions very demonstrably arise from scientific discovery, and demonstrably arise from the availability of technology. This point should be considered pretty hard to dispute. That being the case, when we see scientists getting together among themselves to try to better establish what responsibilities they have or do not have, that's broadly a good thing.
Could such a policy be misused in a bad way? Sure, absolutely, do doubt it could. But to me it seems historically illiterate that so many readers here immediately picture that "scientists decide they should have an ethics policy" could be used in harmful ways but these same readers struggle to picture that scientific discoveries themselves or technologies relating to these could also be used in harmful ways, and if so, whether that places ethical obligations on anybody at any point.
Perhaps, too, it ought to be considered that "scientists shouldn't decide to develop an ethics policy" is also a position itself, one that could also pretty obviously be used in harmful ways as well.
Moving beyond the abortion issues, in the hypothetical above there’s a real chance various regimes would do blood work on their living populations and kill or imprison non-out LGBT people (plus whatever straight people get included due to measurement error).
Knowing that this outcome is likely, is it ethically responsible to publish?
Knowing that this outcome is likely, is it ethically responsible to publish?
With all due respect, I don't buy your premise. There is a handful of places in the world (mostly in the Middle East) that have the death penalty for homosexual practice, as it is seen as a sin. But in the cases I know, it is sin as a sin for being a voluntary act, not because it's in the DNA.
The abortion case is at least realistic. A lot of parents go through the effort of having children at least partly because they want to perpetuate the family line. Whether or not you respect such a goal, for someone with such a goal, it is more likely to happen if your children are straight.
You can also imagine the opposite case. A lesbian couple that WANT to have only female, lesbian daughters, and wanting to abort fetuses that are unlikely to match that pattern. Should that also be illegal?
The abortion case is at least realistic. A lot of parents go through the effort of having children at least partly because they want to perpetuate the family line. Whether or not you respect such a goal, for someone with such a goal, it is more likely to happen if your children are straight.
You can also imagine the opposite case. A lesbian couple that WANT to have only female, lesbian daughters, and wanting to abort fetuses that are unlikely to match that pattern. Should that also be illegal?
At the very least those regimes would likely target additional surveillance towards people genetically predisposed to homosexuality. That’s oppressive in and of itself.
And that surveillance would thus catch and punish more people.
To flip things around, would it be justifiable to enable a society to punish voluntary acts of heterosexuality? Voluntary acts feel much less voluntary when they are extraordinarily self-actualizing.
I’m not informed enough about selective abortion to offer good thoughts. I tend to believe if a metric is not allowed for selection for one direction it shouldn’t be allowed in the other.
And that surveillance would thus catch and punish more people.
To flip things around, would it be justifiable to enable a society to punish voluntary acts of heterosexuality? Voluntary acts feel much less voluntary when they are extraordinarily self-actualizing.
I’m not informed enough about selective abortion to offer good thoughts. I tend to believe if a metric is not allowed for selection for one direction it shouldn’t be allowed in the other.
> At the very least those regimes would likely target additional surveillance towards people genetically predisposed to homosexuality. That’s oppressive in and of itself.
Ok, now you're becoming reasonable
> To flip things around, would it be justifiable to enable a society to punish voluntary acts of heterosexuality?
Some of those same countries do exactly that. What do you think happens to a woman in Iran who has sex outside of marriage?
Anyway, why should a few crazy countries like that determine what can be published in Nature? If there are low-hanging fruits that they can abuse to persecute people, they will just fund the studies domestically.
But honestly, this sounds just like paranoia. The real discussion is about the parent not wanting to give birth to a kid with trait X.
Ok, now you're becoming reasonable
> To flip things around, would it be justifiable to enable a society to punish voluntary acts of heterosexuality?
Some of those same countries do exactly that. What do you think happens to a woman in Iran who has sex outside of marriage?
Anyway, why should a few crazy countries like that determine what can be published in Nature? If there are low-hanging fruits that they can abuse to persecute people, they will just fund the studies domestically.
But honestly, this sounds just like paranoia. The real discussion is about the parent not wanting to give birth to a kid with trait X.
This reminds me of the short story in “I, Robot” (Asimov) about the robot who could read people’s minds.
The robots in that world were hard-coded to be incapable of injury humans, and the mind-reading robot considered emotional damage “injury”. Of course the robot got into a paradox where it had to hurt someone’s feelings, so it just…died.
The robots in that world were hard-coded to be incapable of injury humans, and the mind-reading robot considered emotional damage “injury”. Of course the robot got into a paradox where it had to hurt someone’s feelings, so it just…died.
Perhaps it's wise for everyone to carefully distinguish physical injury versus emotional damage. Perhaps it is true that we can tie ourselves into knots if we treat emotional damage as completely equivalent to physical injury. And, perhaps also, notorious serial sexual harassers groping apparently hundreds of women (such as our man Asimov) have something of a vested interested in teaching us all that emotional damage in important ways doesn't count.
What's interesting to me, revisiting Asimov after medical school, is that we are unable to create a workable definition of pain that is absent an emotional component. This is of course not to claim there are no important ways that physical violence and non-physical emotional harm differ.
What's interesting to me, revisiting Asimov after medical school, is that we are unable to create a workable definition of pain that is absent an emotional component. This is of course not to claim there are no important ways that physical violence and non-physical emotional harm differ.
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Indeed. I'm tired of paradigmatic nonsense. Scott Alexander had a good piece about that relatively recently.
> ableist
This seems like an implicit denial that people can have different abilities.
This seems like an implicit denial that people can have different abilities.
Yeah I never really got the whole "ableist" thing; for example, obviously someone who can't see is less capable of performing visual tasks than someone who can. Does that mean shipping a device with a screen is ableist because not everyone can take advantage of the fact that it has a screen?
I know many people that are sensitive on this issue and none of them would call that ableist.
I'm sure they exist but focusing on the extremes of a movement don't do anyone any favors
For example, most people on this site are a fan of open source. How would they feel if anytime the subject came up people talked only about the ideas of Stallman?
I'm sure they exist but focusing on the extremes of a movement don't do anyone any favors
For example, most people on this site are a fan of open source. How would they feel if anytime the subject came up people talked only about the ideas of Stallman?
> I know many people that are sensitive on this issue and none of them would call that ableist.
I think this overton window keeps shifting and there is no one courageous to say "No, this is unreasonable". It is not just happening in this one instance but the entire culture; we have now instituted things like "birthing persons". We can't even call "Fathers" and "Mothers" anymore. We are too coward to speak up and risk our jobs. The chilling effect is real.
This house of cards is going to fall hard and fast.
I think this overton window keeps shifting and there is no one courageous to say "No, this is unreasonable". It is not just happening in this one instance but the entire culture; we have now instituted things like "birthing persons". We can't even call "Fathers" and "Mothers" anymore. We are too coward to speak up and risk our jobs. The chilling effect is real.
This house of cards is going to fall hard and fast.
Unfortunately that is really how some of these people (don't) think.
There's even dystopian sci-fi with that theme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron
The worst part is that they've infected organisations who have huge amounts of power over the population.
There's even dystopian sci-fi with that theme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron
The worst part is that they've infected organisations who have huge amounts of power over the population.
Seems that they show their true colors.
>research may — inadvertently — stigmatize individuals or human groups. It may be discriminatory, racist, sexist, ableist or homophobic. It may provide justification for undermining the human rights of specific groups, simply because of their social characteristics.
Do these people think there are motherfucking X-Men living among us who we want to save from stigma? These kinds of statements read like the authors don't actually believe people are meaningfully equal.
Do these people think there are motherfucking X-Men living among us who we want to save from stigma? These kinds of statements read like the authors don't actually believe people are meaningfully equal.
What do you mean by “meaningfully equal?”
It strikes me as a tricky set of not always terribly related concepts. As a Christian I believe all human beings are equal in inherent dignity. As an American who likes the Anglo-American legal tradition I believe that all people ought to be equal before the law, even though that’s observably not the case. As someone who has performed hundreds of tech interviews and worked in this industry a long time, I don’t believe people are remotely close to equal in developer ability or productivity and I don’t see any way they could be made to be without bringing high performers down to the lowest common denominator.
It strikes me as a tricky set of not always terribly related concepts. As a Christian I believe all human beings are equal in inherent dignity. As an American who likes the Anglo-American legal tradition I believe that all people ought to be equal before the law, even though that’s observably not the case. As someone who has performed hundreds of tech interviews and worked in this industry a long time, I don’t believe people are remotely close to equal in developer ability or productivity and I don’t see any way they could be made to be without bringing high performers down to the lowest common denominator.
Exactly. What happens when some research may feel socially dirty but is actually a huge boon to some group? I can’t stand the privilege required to say you know better for some other group. Let groups of people stand up for themselves and call out BS when they see it. How can the hegemony possibly understand the feelings of minority groups?
> Do these people think there are motherfucking X-Men living among us
In fact, there are. You know, we all have genetic differences, and most studies do not account for these genetic differences. So a medicine that helps one person might cause drug induced Lupus in another.
Lithium is a good example of this stigma. I have Schizoaffective Bipolar Disorder and Lithium is constantly forces on me even though it does not work. I am what they call a "Lithium Non-Responder" and this has bee shown to be linked to varying genetics.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4814312/
The stigma is that researchers still think there is only one genetic human.
And what do you think the X-Men was about? It was about genetic difference and mental health. It is about trying to have people see that we have value that others cannot see because all they see is the illness.
In fact, there are. You know, we all have genetic differences, and most studies do not account for these genetic differences. So a medicine that helps one person might cause drug induced Lupus in another.
Lithium is a good example of this stigma. I have Schizoaffective Bipolar Disorder and Lithium is constantly forces on me even though it does not work. I am what they call a "Lithium Non-Responder" and this has bee shown to be linked to varying genetics.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4814312/
The stigma is that researchers still think there is only one genetic human.
And what do you think the X-Men was about? It was about genetic difference and mental health. It is about trying to have people see that we have value that others cannot see because all they see is the illness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbamazepine can be effective for those for whom Lithium is ineffective or causes adverse reactions.
Yes, been there. It gave me lupus symptoms. I have much better luck eating only seafood and no plant oils. These omega 3's inhibit these sodium channels as well as the calcium channels implicated in mood disorders.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20167245/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20167245/
"These kinds of statements read like the authors don't actually believe people are meaningfully equal."
Right. Which is the problem. If differences between humans were down near the noise threshold, none of this would be an issue. What qualities should be valued or devalued, rewarded or punished, is an ethical and political issue. Measuring them is a scientific one. "Nature" is, supposedly, in the science business.
Denial is not a river in Egypt.
Right. Which is the problem. If differences between humans were down near the noise threshold, none of this would be an issue. What qualities should be valued or devalued, rewarded or punished, is an ethical and political issue. Measuring them is a scientific one. "Nature" is, supposedly, in the science business.
Denial is not a river in Egypt.
Very frightening that something like this is posted on Nature.com. Burying the truth because it might be inconvenient.
This strikes me as an incredibly bad faith interpretation of the article. I do not understand how this widespread determination to pretend that scientific research is "just another religion" got so popular but I do understand the practical effect is to convince people that their superstitions are as valuable as research, which is just going to lead to another Dark Ages. Nevertheless, your immediate leap to political conspiricy is tiring, irrelevant, and ultimately pointless.
Science (as in organized, rigorous research efforts) has had a problem with respecting human rights for most of its history. This ethical guidance is here to prevent horrible shit like the Stanford Prison Experiment, the Operation Upshot-Knothole downwinders, the CDC Tuskegee Study, and so forth. The sociopathic robots who believe that research must ignore human dignity in order to be valid are not correct. There is still room in research to treat human beings like human beings, regardless of the destructive paranoia currently en vogue on web forums.
Science (as in organized, rigorous research efforts) has had a problem with respecting human rights for most of its history. This ethical guidance is here to prevent horrible shit like the Stanford Prison Experiment, the Operation Upshot-Knothole downwinders, the CDC Tuskegee Study, and so forth. The sociopathic robots who believe that research must ignore human dignity in order to be valid are not correct. There is still room in research to treat human beings like human beings, regardless of the destructive paranoia currently en vogue on web forums.
I'm a person of faith. At the same time, we point out that the religion of "scientism" exists whether people admit it or not, especially when they claim that they "believe in science". Correct faith and science are not contradictory. And those people mix up belief in the unseen with blind faith without proof or evidence.
I think your view on this is being influenced by the limitations of the language you're using.
When a religious person says they "believe" something, it means they operate as if it were true even though they have no evidence to indicate it as such (a.k.a. the god of the gaps).
When a scientist says they "believe" something, it means all evidence gathered so far indicates that it is true, but if more data comes in and a different conclusion is drawn, then the belief should be abandoned.
These are two entirely different concepts, but in English we tend to just say "believe". The scientific "belief" is more akin to a mathematical theorem: - if X, then Y - All data indicates X is probably true, so for now I believe Y. - New data indicates X is probably false, so I no longer believe Y.
And of course when you're engineering something, it's not that simple because you need contingencies. X may have a 99% chance of being true, but you still need to have a plan for for that 1% case.
None of this is something that religion considers whatsoever; with religion, a belief is true and anything contrary to that belief is considered false, even if that thing is a measurement of reality itself. There are still huge swaths of people who believe a person thousands of years ago was immaculately conceived, walked on water, turned water into wine, all things that you and I know are inconsistent with reality. But all contrary evidence simply doesn't matter, the "belief" remains. This is the antithesis of science.
When a religious person says they "believe" something, it means they operate as if it were true even though they have no evidence to indicate it as such (a.k.a. the god of the gaps).
When a scientist says they "believe" something, it means all evidence gathered so far indicates that it is true, but if more data comes in and a different conclusion is drawn, then the belief should be abandoned.
These are two entirely different concepts, but in English we tend to just say "believe". The scientific "belief" is more akin to a mathematical theorem: - if X, then Y - All data indicates X is probably true, so for now I believe Y. - New data indicates X is probably false, so I no longer believe Y.
And of course when you're engineering something, it's not that simple because you need contingencies. X may have a 99% chance of being true, but you still need to have a plan for for that 1% case.
None of this is something that religion considers whatsoever; with religion, a belief is true and anything contrary to that belief is considered false, even if that thing is a measurement of reality itself. There are still huge swaths of people who believe a person thousands of years ago was immaculately conceived, walked on water, turned water into wine, all things that you and I know are inconsistent with reality. But all contrary evidence simply doesn't matter, the "belief" remains. This is the antithesis of science.
> was immaculately conceived, walked on water, turned water into wine, all things that you and I know are inconsistent with reality.
All those things are completely consistent with reality. Every year there are virgin births[0] (not immaculate conceptions[1], which is a term specific to the birth of the Virgin Mary herself), water turning into wine[2], and people walking on water[3].
I think what you mean is, the specific details of those miracles, as described in the Bible, have not been observed since, and they would have required a succession of extremely improbable quantum events. No one disagrees with the notion that those events were scientifically unlikely, but unlikely events are still consistent with reality.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrigation [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowshoe
All those things are completely consistent with reality. Every year there are virgin births[0] (not immaculate conceptions[1], which is a term specific to the birth of the Virgin Mary herself), water turning into wine[2], and people walking on water[3].
I think what you mean is, the specific details of those miracles, as described in the Bible, have not been observed since, and they would have required a succession of extremely improbable quantum events. No one disagrees with the notion that those events were scientifically unlikely, but unlikely events are still consistent with reality.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrigation [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowshoe
You're right. People forget things like: Jesus' disciples witnessed his miracles and wrote about them, other nonbiblical scholars wrote about Jesus and his miracles, there was recorded evidence to his death, there were witnesses to his ascension, 11 of the 12 apostles died for believing that Jesus was God (the 12th was Peter, marooned on Patmos, also for believing Jesus was God)
None of those things are true. The earliest known manuscripts of any biblical text post-dates Jesus by 300 years. There are no eyewitness accounts in existence. Non-biblical scholars did not write about Jesus and the only mentions that we have of his existence are from someone who was shown to forge documents (Josephus) and Roman documents using general terms that refer to a criminal as "someone claiming to be the Messiah" rather than a specific person who was making those claims. We have no evidence that any of the apostles actually existed or died for believing anything.
> The earliest known manuscripts of any biblical text post-dates Jesus by 300 years.
It's easy to make bold statements, but that definitely doesn't match what most historians, Christian and secular, claim. (And I believe several of your other claims have been largely discredited, even by secular historians.)
Bart Ehrman, a New Testament historian who is well known for his critical eye on this stuff (he was a Christian but later became an atheist), dates the NT books between 50 and 120 AD, and from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament, the latest date scholars give is 150 AD. Other scholars date the NT books from between 70 and 90 AD.
The 300 AD date you're referring to may be when the New Testament was approved as "canon" by the church. Again from that Wikipedia article:
> The earliest known complete list of the 27 books is found in a letter written by Athanasius, a 4th-century bishop of Alexandria, dated to 367 AD. The 27-book New Testament was first formally canonized during the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397) in North Africa.
See also the first answer here: https://www.quora.com/Was-the-first-gospel-written-300-years... and https://www.thebritishacademy.ac.uk/blog/how-new-testament-w... which notes that:
> By the time of Justin Martyr (ca. 100-165 AD) and Irenaeus (ca. 130-202 AD) we find extensive quotations from New Testament books; while the First Letter of Clement, addressed to the church in Corinth, quotes Paul’s First Letter to the Corinthians.
It's easy to make bold statements, but that definitely doesn't match what most historians, Christian and secular, claim. (And I believe several of your other claims have been largely discredited, even by secular historians.)
Bart Ehrman, a New Testament historian who is well known for his critical eye on this stuff (he was a Christian but later became an atheist), dates the NT books between 50 and 120 AD, and from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament, the latest date scholars give is 150 AD. Other scholars date the NT books from between 70 and 90 AD.
The 300 AD date you're referring to may be when the New Testament was approved as "canon" by the church. Again from that Wikipedia article:
> The earliest known complete list of the 27 books is found in a letter written by Athanasius, a 4th-century bishop of Alexandria, dated to 367 AD. The 27-book New Testament was first formally canonized during the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397) in North Africa.
See also the first answer here: https://www.quora.com/Was-the-first-gospel-written-300-years... and https://www.thebritishacademy.ac.uk/blog/how-new-testament-w... which notes that:
> By the time of Justin Martyr (ca. 100-165 AD) and Irenaeus (ca. 130-202 AD) we find extensive quotations from New Testament books; while the First Letter of Clement, addressed to the church in Corinth, quotes Paul’s First Letter to the Corinthians.
>Bart Ehrman, a New Testament historian who is well known for his critical eye on this stuff
He is not known for any such thing. Ehrman's claims are all on the historical chain of evidence for the books, not whether the books are true accounts. I'm very familiar with his work. In fact, in his book "How Jesus Became God", he suggests that there's no evidence at all, historically speaking, that Jesus ever even claimed to be the Son of God or anything supernatural and that, if he did exist, he was just a preacher. Jesus was not mentioned by any of his contemporaries or the Romans at all and they kept excellent documentation of official events of their empire.
Either way, by your own admission, there were no eyewitnesses. If the books are dated 120 years after the birth of Jesus, then the people that wrote them were not around when those events occurred.
Also, your evidence is simply showing that the books existed. It doesn't prove or support the idea that the events in them were true. Your argument here is akin to saying that Ghostbusters is a true story because it takes place in NYC and that's a real city that exists now.
Quoting a book as evidence that the book is true is tautological.
He is not known for any such thing. Ehrman's claims are all on the historical chain of evidence for the books, not whether the books are true accounts. I'm very familiar with his work. In fact, in his book "How Jesus Became God", he suggests that there's no evidence at all, historically speaking, that Jesus ever even claimed to be the Son of God or anything supernatural and that, if he did exist, he was just a preacher. Jesus was not mentioned by any of his contemporaries or the Romans at all and they kept excellent documentation of official events of their empire.
Either way, by your own admission, there were no eyewitnesses. If the books are dated 120 years after the birth of Jesus, then the people that wrote them were not around when those events occurred.
Also, your evidence is simply showing that the books existed. It doesn't prove or support the idea that the events in them were true. Your argument here is akin to saying that Ghostbusters is a true story because it takes place in NYC and that's a real city that exists now.
Quoting a book as evidence that the book is true is tautological.
> Quoting a book as evidence that the book is true is tautological.
I wasn't arguing that the books were true. I do believe that, but you'll note my reply above simply tries to show that your bold claim that "the earliest known manuscripts of any biblical text post-dates Jesus by 300 years" is widely discredited.
I didn't "admit there were no eyewitnesses" at all -- my response wasn't related to that. Overall it seems like your reply had very little to do with my response above?
I wasn't arguing that the books were true. I do believe that, but you'll note my reply above simply tries to show that your bold claim that "the earliest known manuscripts of any biblical text post-dates Jesus by 300 years" is widely discredited.
I didn't "admit there were no eyewitnesses" at all -- my response wasn't related to that. Overall it seems like your reply had very little to do with my response above?
Yes, you did admit that there were no eyewitnesses. You stated:
>Other scholars date the NT books from between 70 and 90 AD.
Jesus lived to be 35 years old. Even if you take the most supportive version of this statement, the earliest NT book was written over 35 years after Jesus' supposed death and there's no evidence to support the idea that they were written between those dates. Even the Wikipedia link that you sent says that there's no evidence for it:
>The New Oxford Annotated Bible states, "Scholars generally agree that the Gospels were written forty to sixty years after the death of Jesus. They thus do not present eyewitness or contemporary accounts of Jesus's life and teaching."
>Other scholars date the NT books from between 70 and 90 AD.
Jesus lived to be 35 years old. Even if you take the most supportive version of this statement, the earliest NT book was written over 35 years after Jesus' supposed death and there's no evidence to support the idea that they were written between those dates. Even the Wikipedia link that you sent says that there's no evidence for it:
>The New Oxford Annotated Bible states, "Scholars generally agree that the Gospels were written forty to sixty years after the death of Jesus. They thus do not present eyewitness or contemporary accounts of Jesus's life and teaching."
I was raised to believe the same propaganda.
It's not true.
It's not true.
Sure, but can any of those things be replicated in a controlled experiment?
I'm not a Christian, but it is a fallacy to assume that the only way to arrive at truth is through controlled repeatable experiments. Watch this lecture to get a more nuanced view on the subject: https://youtu.be/If3cNUixEBM
> Parthenogenetic offspring in species that use either the XY or the X0 sex-determination system have two X chromosomes and are female.
From this we can infer that Jesus had two X chromosomes, and was therefore a trans man.
From this we can infer that Jesus had two X chromosomes, and was therefore a trans man.
> but unlikely events are still consistent with reality
We name people who overly act on this premisse as schizophrenics.
We name people who overly act on this premisse as schizophrenics.
Or gamblers, or entrepreneurs. I don't know why you'd single out schizophrenics. Well, actually I do know why, but I still don't think it's a reasonable example for you to highlight.
It's a totally different level. Believing a shitty product will make a successful entry on the market does require some level of self-delusion, but nothing like believing a cluster of extremely low probability hypothesis about the world. The closest comparison to that, again, is a schizophrenic.
He isn't predicting the future, he is reflecting on the past. Is it likely that all of those unlikely events will happen to the next person born? Definitely not.
Is it possible that they happened to one of the billions of people who lived? Yes. Even more so if that person happens to be God incarnate who created the universe.
In fact, the chances of these highly unlikely events actually goes up if you consider the person claimed to be God and did miracles to demonstrate his divinity - highly unlikely events is the exact thing you would expect from someone proving to be God
Is it possible that they happened to one of the billions of people who lived? Yes. Even more so if that person happens to be God incarnate who created the universe.
In fact, the chances of these highly unlikely events actually goes up if you consider the person claimed to be God and did miracles to demonstrate his divinity - highly unlikely events is the exact thing you would expect from someone proving to be God
> highly unlikely events is the exact thing you would expect from someone proving to be God
That's circular reasoning. "I believe a extremely low probability event because that's what we should expect from the entity I believe in". If I go with that, I can create any weird belief.
That's circular reasoning. "I believe a extremely low probability event because that's what we should expect from the entity I believe in". If I go with that, I can create any weird belief.
>Even more so if that person happens to be God incarnate who created the universe.
Allegedly. No evidence to support this claim exists.
Allegedly. No evidence to support this claim exists.
Yall are getting it backwards:
I believe Jesus was God because he claimed to be God. Also, the "unlikely events" (aka miracles) don't disprove he existed and was God.
Other people have claimed to be God, too. They were either lying or were crazy. Jesus was neither.
I believe Jesus was God because he claimed to be God. Also, the "unlikely events" (aka miracles) don't disprove he existed and was God.
Other people have claimed to be God, too. They were either lying or were crazy. Jesus was neither.
I recommend watching this to broaden your views: https://youtu.be/If3cNUixEBM
> When a religious person says they "believe" something, it means they operate as if it were true even though they have no evidence to indicate it as such (a.k.a. the god of the gaps).
In practice religious (or spiritual) people are a rather diverse bunch and it's not all that helpful to paint with too broad of a brush.
I will point out that in at least Christian theology, "faith" and "trust" are basically synonyms. In the original Greek of the New Testament, it's literally the same word.
In that sense, making choices based on trust in God or making decisions based on trust in science are really fairly similar. And quite often they're not contradictory either.
For example, both science and scriptures say worrying is bad for you, so someone can try to minimize worry based on faith in science and faith in scripture simultaneously.
I'll also point out that a lot of the "scientific" objections to religions boil down to metaphysical disagreements about the nature of observation of the nature of a (notional, at least) deity. I put "scientific" in scare quotes because science itself only makes sense given some assumptions, like the axiom that it's reasonable to assume things do not exist until it's definitely proven they do. That's a valid opinion, but it's not scientific as such. Another common assumption is that a creator and a fossil record (for instance) are somehow incompatible. As if a creator can create the cosmos but a fossil record is a bit much somehow.
Anyway, I think folks would find each other more thoughtful and reasonable if they'd take some time to listen more. There are lots of misconceptions in all directions in these discussions.
In practice religious (or spiritual) people are a rather diverse bunch and it's not all that helpful to paint with too broad of a brush.
I will point out that in at least Christian theology, "faith" and "trust" are basically synonyms. In the original Greek of the New Testament, it's literally the same word.
In that sense, making choices based on trust in God or making decisions based on trust in science are really fairly similar. And quite often they're not contradictory either.
For example, both science and scriptures say worrying is bad for you, so someone can try to minimize worry based on faith in science and faith in scripture simultaneously.
I'll also point out that a lot of the "scientific" objections to religions boil down to metaphysical disagreements about the nature of observation of the nature of a (notional, at least) deity. I put "scientific" in scare quotes because science itself only makes sense given some assumptions, like the axiom that it's reasonable to assume things do not exist until it's definitely proven they do. That's a valid opinion, but it's not scientific as such. Another common assumption is that a creator and a fossil record (for instance) are somehow incompatible. As if a creator can create the cosmos but a fossil record is a bit much somehow.
Anyway, I think folks would find each other more thoughtful and reasonable if they'd take some time to listen more. There are lots of misconceptions in all directions in these discussions.
> When a religious person says they "believe" something, it means they operate as if it were true even though they have no evidence to indicate it as such (a.k.a. the god of the gaps).
That is not true. As I pointed out, belief in the unseen, with evidence, is very different from believing without evidence.
Check out this lecture for a more detailed and nuanced explanation[1]. It details some of the inherent limitations of science.
[1] https://youtu.be/If3cNUixEBM
That is not true. As I pointed out, belief in the unseen, with evidence, is very different from believing without evidence.
Check out this lecture for a more detailed and nuanced explanation[1]. It details some of the inherent limitations of science.
[1] https://youtu.be/If3cNUixEBM
Yet your opinion falls in the same criteria on limitations of the language you're confining it to. "believe in science" can mean what you said, i.e "it means all evidence gathered so far indicates that it is true, but if more data comes in and a different conclusion is drawn, then the belief should be abandoned"; however, it was also exemplified during COVID as "You're not allowed to question it no matter what merit you have, no matter how logical and methodical your perspective is and regardless of the content of your argument; science is untouchable". The latter is absolutely a religion, but worse, it is a religion that's masquerading as real science, the former, dictating public policy. Far more dangerous and destructive than your run of the mill religion/faith.
>"You're not allowed to question it no matter what merit you have, no matter how logical and methodical your perspective is and regardless of the content of your argument; science is untouchable"
Is this what happened, though? Outside of the politicization of COVID, the majority of the conversation that was anywhere near this was more simply "if you are going to question the people who are providing evidence, you must provide evidence to the contrary". It wasn't that science was untouchable and the change in guidance proves that not only was that not the case but it was shown that science was not untouchable and regularly changed with new information so long as that information was backed by evidence.
Is this what happened, though? Outside of the politicization of COVID, the majority of the conversation that was anywhere near this was more simply "if you are going to question the people who are providing evidence, you must provide evidence to the contrary". It wasn't that science was untouchable and the change in guidance proves that not only was that not the case but it was shown that science was not untouchable and regularly changed with new information so long as that information was backed by evidence.
Absolutely, here is Stanford Prof that was cancelled. All of his viewpoints were grounded in science, but he was skeptical and simply raising the concerns such as "There is no high quality evidence for masks and we should conduct further studies" (Emphasis mine, he didn't say there was no evidence, just not good enough). Worth watching his interviews on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpnbMIOvbjc
That's not how evidence works. He either needs to show evidence that they don't work or he has to show why their evidence is unsatisfactory. Based on that video, he's done neither. Saying "nuh uh, your evidence is bad" is not an argument against the evidence.
Tell me how your believe is better than someone else's 'blind faith'?
Science is falsifiable - anything pushed forward by science has a way to be disproved built in (other wise it is not science). That's important because then you can update your worldview based on new evidence.
For the same to be true of religion - it must be falsifiable: it MUST have a way to disprove itself via experimentation... oh wait... the (Christian version) does...
Go do this test: "Kings 18:20-40": When you've soaked your bull in water and it doesn't magical catch fire by praying... I'll be waiting. (Or I'll be waiting video proof of the Christian god - that should be repeatable by many people... right?)
MAKE THE BULL CATCH FIRE WITH YOUR PRAYERS OR GTFO WITH YOUR NONSENSE
Science is falsifiable - anything pushed forward by science has a way to be disproved built in (other wise it is not science). That's important because then you can update your worldview based on new evidence.
For the same to be true of religion - it must be falsifiable: it MUST have a way to disprove itself via experimentation... oh wait... the (Christian version) does...
Go do this test: "Kings 18:20-40": When you've soaked your bull in water and it doesn't magical catch fire by praying... I'll be waiting. (Or I'll be waiting video proof of the Christian god - that should be repeatable by many people... right?)
MAKE THE BULL CATCH FIRE WITH YOUR PRAYERS OR GTFO WITH YOUR NONSENSE
Just because that prayer lead to a miracle in the past, doesn't mean you can demand that God grants the same miracle again in different circumstances. That's trying to treat God as something like an appliance rather than an agent, and even an appliance would have instructions for when it would work.
If I may reverse the burden of proof, and be equally unreasonable, let me say that if you think that there is no afterlife, then you should go kill yourself. You're going to die at some point anyway, and this way you'll get your answer right away. It's a 100% falsifiable position, but unfortunately very few people who have done the necessary experiment have been able to communicate their findings to the scientific community afterwards.
If I may reverse the burden of proof, and be equally unreasonable, let me say that if you think that there is no afterlife, then you should go kill yourself. You're going to die at some point anyway, and this way you'll get your answer right away. It's a 100% falsifiable position, but unfortunately very few people who have done the necessary experiment have been able to communicate their findings to the scientific community afterwards.
>Just because that prayer lead to a miracle in the past, doesn't mean you can demand that God grants the same miracle again in different circumstances.
Why not? If a god has shown that they can intervene in the physical world we live in, why shouldn't we be able to test that?
Why not? If a god has shown that they can intervene in the physical world we live in, why shouldn't we be able to test that?
God does not obey your or anyone else's whim. The Quran says:
> He cannot be questioned about what He does, but they will ˹all˺ be questioned.
-- https://quran.com/21/23
I posted this lecture in another post, it's a good starting point: https://youtu.be/If3cNUixEBM
> He cannot be questioned about what He does, but they will ˹all˺ be questioned.
-- https://quran.com/21/23
I posted this lecture in another post, it's a good starting point: https://youtu.be/If3cNUixEBM
This assumes the presupposition that god exists and is real which, as is the entire point of this thread, relies on a belief without evidence. You can't use the actions of a "god" as evidence for the existence of that god without evidence of those actions.
Did you watch the lecture before claiming presupposition without evidence?
I'm not about to watch a 50 minute video to find out something that I already know. The entire premise of a biblical/textual god is based on the idea that there is no evidence and that's why "belief" and "faith" are required. Unless you have specific evidence, the initial statement stands.
You do realize that in verse 40 the unbelievers were slaughtered, right? Can I pick a miracle with less severe consequences?
Let's do Luke 5:4-8
Jesus tells fishermen to cast their nets and catch 2 boat loads of fish. Before you discount this miracle, I'll point out that Simon believed Jesus was God after this - but watching Jesus heal people is Ch 4 didn't convince him.
Great. Now for the miracle. It's at the nearest grocery store. In the fish department.
Let's do Luke 5:4-8
Jesus tells fishermen to cast their nets and catch 2 boat loads of fish. Before you discount this miracle, I'll point out that Simon believed Jesus was God after this - but watching Jesus heal people is Ch 4 didn't convince him.
Great. Now for the miracle. It's at the nearest grocery store. In the fish department.
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You know any time someone says "Although [academic] freedom is fundamental, it is not unbounded.", watch out!
It's a common trope many use to slowly whittle away freedoms. A more accurate rephrasing would be "Your rights are all ready limited, so limiting them more shouldn't cause any concern,"
It's lazy thinking, because whatever limitations are in place today, have no bearing on the validity of the limitations the author is proposing - those should be viewed independently and skeptically.
What people don't realize is that when your freedoms are taken away, it's not some evil dictator yanking them from your clutches and you are beaten down by armed thugs, it's you and fellow citizens willfully giving them up for "the greater good".
It's a common trope many use to slowly whittle away freedoms. A more accurate rephrasing would be "Your rights are all ready limited, so limiting them more shouldn't cause any concern,"
It's lazy thinking, because whatever limitations are in place today, have no bearing on the validity of the limitations the author is proposing - those should be viewed independently and skeptically.
What people don't realize is that when your freedoms are taken away, it's not some evil dictator yanking them from your clutches and you are beaten down by armed thugs, it's you and fellow citizens willfully giving them up for "the greater good".
There is a difference here. One was to maintain the power of a theocracy while the other is to protect the lives of individuals. Is it the right course of action? I don’t know but the motivations are definitely not analogous.
A theocracy is nothing more then a "protect the rights of individuals" for contract safety (marriage), primitive justice and against more then absolute ruler overreach, going heywire and corrupt.
This whole machine will reincarnate again and again though. With fairytale or without, the part of society not trusting the judical system to uphold contracts and social safety, will make there voices heard in pseudo religion after pseudo religion.
Let me venture into the testable area. I venture the guess, that the more reliable and longer existing a states social safety net is, the more religion will be absent from its society. It should also corellate with reliability of the justice system.
This whole machine will reincarnate again and again though. With fairytale or without, the part of society not trusting the judical system to uphold contracts and social safety, will make there voices heard in pseudo religion after pseudo religion.
Let me venture into the testable area. I venture the guess, that the more reliable and longer existing a states social safety net is, the more religion will be absent from its society. It should also corellate with reliability of the justice system.
The stated, overt goal of that theocracy was to save the souls of individuals. I’m not sure this distinction is as real as you state.
Salvation of every last immortal human soul was a deep and abiding concern of the church. A lot more so than the "woke" of today who would happily brand newborn babies of the wrong color into oppression hierarchies.
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kingkawn(1)
devindotcom(5)
ElCheapo(3)
This is nothing more than a way to manipulate scientific publication to empower white elites at the expense of both less privileged whites and minorities alike.
First, there is absolutely no hope of anything like this being applied in a fair and even handed way.
> Academic content that undermines the dignity or rights of specific groups; assumes that a human group is superior or inferior over another simply because of a social characteristic
Will the “dignity” of white people preclude publishing academic research suggesting there should be race segregated spaces in colleges? Will these rules be applied to protect the dignity of white Appalachians? Not a snowball’s chance in hell.
Second, insofar as elite whites have very different views of minorities than minorities themselves do, these rules will be used to suppress research that both comports with what minorities themselves believe and what the data could show is in their best interest. For example, Raj Chetty’s recent research showing that the two most important community factors for upward mobility for Black kids is (1) low racism among white people in the area; and (2) high levels of fathers present in the home (even if the child’s own father is not present): https://ifstudies.org/blog/for-black-boys-family-structure-s...
White liberal academics love the former finding but hate the latter finding, and these rules absolutely will distort the research that comes out as a result. (If you weren’t an Indian guy in the UK, might you be incentivized to just run with the first finding and not the second?)
> Yet, people can be harmed indirectly. For example, research may — inadvertently — stigmatize individuals or human groups. It may be discriminatory, racist, sexist, ableist or homophobic. It may provide justification for undermining the human rights of specific groups, simply because of their social characteristics.
And who gets to define what’s “racist?” “Good” white people: https://contexts.org/blog/who-gets-to-define-whats-racist/ (“Rather than actually dismantling white supremacy or meaningfully empowering people of color, efforts often seem to be oriented towards consolidating social and cultural capital in the hands of the ‘good’ whites.”).
Social sciences have so little credibility to begin with. They shouldn’t be shredding it by creating rules that will require them to put political concerns ahead of the truth.
First, there is absolutely no hope of anything like this being applied in a fair and even handed way.
> Academic content that undermines the dignity or rights of specific groups; assumes that a human group is superior or inferior over another simply because of a social characteristic
Will the “dignity” of white people preclude publishing academic research suggesting there should be race segregated spaces in colleges? Will these rules be applied to protect the dignity of white Appalachians? Not a snowball’s chance in hell.
Second, insofar as elite whites have very different views of minorities than minorities themselves do, these rules will be used to suppress research that both comports with what minorities themselves believe and what the data could show is in their best interest. For example, Raj Chetty’s recent research showing that the two most important community factors for upward mobility for Black kids is (1) low racism among white people in the area; and (2) high levels of fathers present in the home (even if the child’s own father is not present): https://ifstudies.org/blog/for-black-boys-family-structure-s...
White liberal academics love the former finding but hate the latter finding, and these rules absolutely will distort the research that comes out as a result. (If you weren’t an Indian guy in the UK, might you be incentivized to just run with the first finding and not the second?)
> Yet, people can be harmed indirectly. For example, research may — inadvertently — stigmatize individuals or human groups. It may be discriminatory, racist, sexist, ableist or homophobic. It may provide justification for undermining the human rights of specific groups, simply because of their social characteristics.
And who gets to define what’s “racist?” “Good” white people: https://contexts.org/blog/who-gets-to-define-whats-racist/ (“Rather than actually dismantling white supremacy or meaningfully empowering people of color, efforts often seem to be oriented towards consolidating social and cultural capital in the hands of the ‘good’ whites.”).
Social sciences have so little credibility to begin with. They shouldn’t be shredding it by creating rules that will require them to put political concerns ahead of the truth.
Title doesn't go far enough. Science must respect the dignity and rights of all living things, because ignoring the Earth's ecosystems is suicide. That will mean not pursuing some options, not just ignoring 'externalities' for fame or fortune.
There's so much to learn. We don't even really understand simple lichens.
There's so much to learn. We don't even really understand simple lichens.
What about the harm done by allowing publication from a group of humans killing other humans? Russian research institutions were given carte blanche while the state murdered innocent Ukrainians (and still does). Yet all the high and mighty science institutions keep insisting we should keep supporting Russian research. The ethical thing to do would be to use the influence of the scientific community to hinder, impede, and block any group that so horrifyingly and blatantly violates human rights. But apparently we're all okay with oppression as long as we're not the ones being oppressed.
Ethics make us sound noble, but nobody will stand up to China, or the USA, or Russia. We all care about getting ours much more than we care about protecting people. The hypocrisy is so obvious nobody mentions it, like a turd on the sidewalk. Step over it and move on.
Ethics make us sound noble, but nobody will stand up to China, or the USA, or Russia. We all care about getting ours much more than we care about protecting people. The hypocrisy is so obvious nobody mentions it, like a turd on the sidewalk. Step over it and move on.
> Nobody will stand up to China, or the USA, or Russia.
If you rank how many people were killed in the past 20 years, US is 100X of China and Russia summed up together...
If you rank how many people were killed in the past 20 years, US is 100X of China and Russia summed up together...
I guess he wasn’t talking about the magazine…