To make dishwashers great again? (2020)(greenbuildinglawupdate.com)
greenbuildinglawupdate.com
To make dishwashers great again? (2020)
https://www.greenbuildinglawupdate.com/2020/11/articles/environmental/to-make-dishwashers-great-again/
581 comments
Technology Connections' videos are a bit long for my taste. This one and its follow up really only have a few takeaways:
Dirt sensors might mean that deliberately leaving crud on the dishes (rather than rinsing first in the sink) leads to longer and better washes
Run your kitchen sink hot water a little before starting to get warmer water into the dishwasher
The first cycle is just water, before the detergent tray pops open, so put detergent into the pre-wash tray or just straight into the tub to make it do more cleaning in that cycle
But don't put two pods in, i.e. one in the detergent tray, and another detergent pod into the tub because these pods are very concentrated and harsh and will damage plates. Only add a little extra powder
Dirt sensors might mean that deliberately leaving crud on the dishes (rather than rinsing first in the sink) leads to longer and better washes
Run your kitchen sink hot water a little before starting to get warmer water into the dishwasher
The first cycle is just water, before the detergent tray pops open, so put detergent into the pre-wash tray or just straight into the tub to make it do more cleaning in that cycle
But don't put two pods in, i.e. one in the detergent tray, and another detergent pod into the tub because these pods are very concentrated and harsh and will damage plates. Only add a little extra powder
> Run your kitchen sink hot water a little before starting to get warmer water into the dishwasher
Note: this only makes sense in the US (or wherever else it's common for your dishwasher not to heat its own water).
> But don't put two pods in, i.e. one in the detergent tray, and another detergent pod into the tub because these pods are very concentrated and harsh and will damage plates. Only add a little extra powder
I'm not sure damaging your plates is the reason to avoid the extra pod. Plates are often made of some glass-like or ceramic-like material and not that easily damaged by chemicals.
Note: this only makes sense in the US (or wherever else it's common for your dishwasher not to heat its own water).
> But don't put two pods in, i.e. one in the detergent tray, and another detergent pod into the tub because these pods are very concentrated and harsh and will damage plates. Only add a little extra powder
I'm not sure damaging your plates is the reason to avoid the extra pod. Plates are often made of some glass-like or ceramic-like material and not that easily damaged by chemicals.
Don't know about the pods, but for a while we used DIY dishwashing powder with soda crystals as the main ingredient, and after a while you could definitely notice slight scratching of glassware, and any printing would fade pretty heavily. Not sure if that's a chemical process or simply the abrasiveness of the powder.
Oh, dishwashers are definitely hard on printing on glasses.
I'm not sure about scratches. I can imagine you would get scratches if your detergent (especially crystals) doesn't completely dissolve? I mean, people even sometimes use sugar as a scrubbing agent. Dissolved sugar can't scratch anything, but sugar crystals can.
I'm not sure about scratches. I can imagine you would get scratches if your detergent (especially crystals) doesn't completely dissolve? I mean, people even sometimes use sugar as a scrubbing agent. Dissolved sugar can't scratch anything, but sugar crystals can.
It's likely chemical.
https://www.maytag.com/blog/kitchen/how-to-prevent-etching-g...
https://www.maytag.com/blog/kitchen/how-to-prevent-etching-g...
> > Run your kitchen sink hot water a little before starting to get warmer water into the dishwasher
> Note: this only makes sense in the US (or wherever else it's common for your dishwasher not to heat its own water).
I don't think this is a US-vs-world issue. Other countries' dishwashers are also connected to the hot water supply.
Rather, Technology Connections is suggesting a hack.
Your dishwasher, wherever in the world you may be, will start up by using whatever water it can get for an initial rinse of the dishes, and it will measure how dirty the water is after this initial rinse.
Normally this water will be tepid. But if you make it hot by running your hot tap first, the hot water will rinse more dirt off the dishes than tepid water, the dishwasher will detect more dirt, and so it will assume the dishes need more aggressive cleaning, and adjust its program accordingly.
> Note: this only makes sense in the US (or wherever else it's common for your dishwasher not to heat its own water).
I don't think this is a US-vs-world issue. Other countries' dishwashers are also connected to the hot water supply.
Rather, Technology Connections is suggesting a hack.
Your dishwasher, wherever in the world you may be, will start up by using whatever water it can get for an initial rinse of the dishes, and it will measure how dirty the water is after this initial rinse.
Normally this water will be tepid. But if you make it hot by running your hot tap first, the hot water will rinse more dirt off the dishes than tepid water, the dishwasher will detect more dirt, and so it will assume the dishes need more aggressive cleaning, and adjust its program accordingly.
> Your dishwasher, wherever in the world you may be, will start up by using whatever water it can get for an initial rinse of the dishes, and it will measure how dirty the water is after this initial rinse.
> Normally this water will be tepid. But if you make it hot by running your hot tap first, the hot water will rinse more dirt off the dishes than tepid water ...
I might be misunderstanding you, but this definitely doesn't apply everywhere.
I don't know how this works in the rest of the world, but in the Netherlands at least my dishwasher is only hooked up to the cold water, running my tap will have no effect on the temperature of the water my dishwasher receives.
> Normally this water will be tepid. But if you make it hot by running your hot tap first, the hot water will rinse more dirt off the dishes than tepid water ...
I might be misunderstanding you, but this definitely doesn't apply everywhere.
I don't know how this works in the rest of the world, but in the Netherlands at least my dishwasher is only hooked up to the cold water, running my tap will have no effect on the temperature of the water my dishwasher receives.
I can't speak for every person's experience, but what I believe is that most dishwashers being sold today, anywhere, are capable of being connected to domestic hot water, or cold water. They will work with both. That's not the same thing as saying every dishwasher being sold can do this, but check your instruction manual. Perhaps it can. As per a sibling comment, decide holistically if that would be a good idea or not.
Unless someone can point me to the existence of regulations saying something like "it's illegal to connect a dishwasher to a hot water line, it's gotta be cold water that the dishwasher heats up itself", then my expectation is that most dishwashers can be connected to either hot or cold, and will heat the water to the correct temperature.
Looking at EU regulations, as far as I can see, they don't regulate the intake temperatures that dishwashers have to accept. What they do regulate is energy usage labelling, and mandating there must be an "eco" mode, what the eco mode must do, and if you get to select multiple modes then "eco" mode must be the default. https://commission.europa.eu/energy-climate-change-environme...
Unless someone can point me to the existence of regulations saying something like "it's illegal to connect a dishwasher to a hot water line, it's gotta be cold water that the dishwasher heats up itself", then my expectation is that most dishwashers can be connected to either hot or cold, and will heat the water to the correct temperature.
Looking at EU regulations, as far as I can see, they don't regulate the intake temperatures that dishwashers have to accept. What they do regulate is energy usage labelling, and mandating there must be an "eco" mode, what the eco mode must do, and if you get to select multiple modes then "eco" mode must be the default. https://commission.europa.eu/energy-climate-change-environme...
> I can't speak for every person's experience, but what I believe is that most dishwashers being sold today, anywhere, are capable of being connected to domestic hot water, or cold water. They will work with both.
This is not my experience. Nowadays appliances such as washing machines and dishwashers, in Europe at least, only have a cold water inlet.
Apparently modern appliances use so little water overall that it's no longer efficient to connect them to a hot water supply, since they will stop drawing water before the hot water runs through the pipes, and therefore it just wastes the hot water.
This is not my experience. Nowadays appliances such as washing machines and dishwashers, in Europe at least, only have a cold water inlet.
Apparently modern appliances use so little water overall that it's no longer efficient to connect them to a hot water supply, since they will stop drawing water before the hot water runs through the pipes, and therefore it just wastes the hot water.
Many European machines accept hot water. Any Miele does, and my entry level Bosch (in UK) accepts up to 60C but you have to set some obscure setting on the machine (the manual explains). But I find even cheap machines wash pretty well even without this, and you are right about it it being hot only if the machine is right next to the boiler.
I bought a new dishwasher (and it's not as good as the old one :/), in the instruction manual it says you can use some configuration to tell it it's hooked up to hot water.
It makes sense to hook it up to a hot water line, given things like solar collectors and heat exchangers heating / pre-heating water.
It makes sense to hook it up to a hot water line, given things like solar collectors and heat exchangers heating / pre-heating water.
> Other countries' dishwashers are also connected to the hot water supply.
I think it is more a 110V vs. 230V household power issue. For 110V countries like the US the amps needed to heat up the water would be pretty high or the heat up would take very long. In Europe however I have yet to come across a dish-washer that is connected to the hot water supply.
I think it is more a 110V vs. 230V household power issue. For 110V countries like the US the amps needed to heat up the water would be pretty high or the heat up would take very long. In Europe however I have yet to come across a dish-washer that is connected to the hot water supply.
Just a note on the hot water supply: Whether this happens depends on three factors:
- Does the dish washer support it? Not all do in the EU.
- Did the plumber install a warm outlet when they set up the connection for the dish washer?
- Does it even make sense from a holistic perspective?
The latter depends on the specific circumstances. For instance, I live in a country with district heating, and here it makes sense, because then I can use cheap heat. My dish washer supports it. But there's no warm outlet installed by the plumber, and currently the heat is mostly from coal, whereas the electricity is mostly renewable, so for the time being I just let it be.
- Does the dish washer support it? Not all do in the EU.
- Did the plumber install a warm outlet when they set up the connection for the dish washer?
- Does it even make sense from a holistic perspective?
The latter depends on the specific circumstances. For instance, I live in a country with district heating, and here it makes sense, because then I can use cheap heat. My dish washer supports it. But there's no warm outlet installed by the plumber, and currently the heat is mostly from coal, whereas the electricity is mostly renewable, so for the time being I just let it be.
> Other countries' dishwashers are also connected to the hot water supply.
No? I'm in Germany, all dishwashers I've ever had were connected to cold water and heat their own water.
No? I'm in Germany, all dishwashers I've ever had were connected to cold water and heat their own water.
That's OK, that's your choice. I believe most dishwashers will work with either.
My dishwasher is connected to a hot water tap and also heats its own water to exactly the correct temperature... it just doesn't need to heat it as much because it's connected to a hot water line.
Here's the install guide of a random dishwasher selling in Germany right now: https://media3.bosch-home.com/Documents/9000521334_L.pdf
It says to connect to a water source with these characteristics:
* Pressure: 0,05 - 1 MPa (0,5 - 10 bar) * Temperature: max 60°C
It doesn't specify a minimum temperature although I assume it'd have to be >=1°C. But it is clear you can connect to either a hot or a cold water line.
My dishwasher is connected to a hot water tap and also heats its own water to exactly the correct temperature... it just doesn't need to heat it as much because it's connected to a hot water line.
Here's the install guide of a random dishwasher selling in Germany right now: https://media3.bosch-home.com/Documents/9000521334_L.pdf
It says to connect to a water source with these characteristics:
* Pressure: 0,05 - 1 MPa (0,5 - 10 bar) * Temperature: max 60°C
It doesn't specify a minimum temperature although I assume it'd have to be >=1°C. But it is clear you can connect to either a hot or a cold water line.
Sure, it optionally supports it, but that's an extra water line that'd need to be run.
And what for? Whether the instant water heater or the dishwasher heats the water, it's still going to be the same amount of electricity, the same cost.
And what for? Whether the instant water heater or the dishwasher heats the water, it's still going to be the same amount of electricity, the same cost.
Have a look at the overview on Geizhals.de - Almost all current models have optional hot water intake nowadays (like 95%+ of the models from AEG/Bosch/Siemens/Neff/Bauknecht/Miele). This is to further advance the energy-rating. Doesnt apply to the cheaper manufacturers though.
981 of 1027 models from a number of well-known brands have an optional hot water intake: https://geizhals.de/?cat=hgeschirr60&xf=1069_AEG+Electrolux%...
981 of 1027 models from a number of well-known brands have an optional hot water intake: https://geizhals.de/?cat=hgeschirr60&xf=1069_AEG+Electrolux%...
Whether you heat the water in the dishwasher or in an instant water heater, it's still going to be the same amount of electricity for the same cost.
I think in the US people might heat water with natural gas, which is cheaper, but that's not really the case in most rental apartments in Germany.
I think in the US people might heat water with natural gas, which is cheaper, but that's not really the case in most rental apartments in Germany.
>I don't think this is a US-vs-world issue.
Which country are you in?
I'm in the UK and we only connect dishwashers to the cold supply. Other comments in this thread from NL and DE are the same.
Which country are you in?
I'm in the UK and we only connect dishwashers to the cold supply. Other comments in this thread from NL and DE are the same.
I'm in the UK and have a dishwasher connected to the hot water right now. There is not some country-wide uniform "we".
The manual makes clear this is quite OK.
They work with either hot or cold water. They will heat the water to the temperature they need. They don't work with _too hot_ water, hotter than they would heat it themselves (e.g. >60°C), but that's also outside the range of most domestic hot water supplies (which per BS 8558 should have a draw-off temperature of 50°C at sinks).
As a quick sample, here's the Argos dishwashers page: https://www.argos.co.uk/browse/appliances/dishwashers/c:2961...
Pick any dishwasher at random, go to Specifications -> General -> Water fill. Every single one I picked, all from different manufacturers, said "cold or hot"
Looking at one random choice's data sheet: https://documents.4rgos.it/v1/static/3425118_R_D010
> Maximum temperature for water intake (°C) 60
The manual makes clear this is quite OK.
They work with either hot or cold water. They will heat the water to the temperature they need. They don't work with _too hot_ water, hotter than they would heat it themselves (e.g. >60°C), but that's also outside the range of most domestic hot water supplies (which per BS 8558 should have a draw-off temperature of 50°C at sinks).
As a quick sample, here's the Argos dishwashers page: https://www.argos.co.uk/browse/appliances/dishwashers/c:2961...
Pick any dishwasher at random, go to Specifications -> General -> Water fill. Every single one I picked, all from different manufacturers, said "cold or hot"
Looking at one random choice's data sheet: https://documents.4rgos.it/v1/static/3425118_R_D010
> Maximum temperature for water intake (°C) 60
I wasn't able to find manufacturer recommendations from Argos, but I did find two Swedish manufacturers that support either hot or cold water, but recommend that you use the cold water line. One of them claims that detergents are designed to work better when starting with cold water (presumably this is not the case in the US, where hot-water-only machines are the norm).
> Connect the machine to cold water if possible. Then the dishwasher itself heats up the water during the washing phase and the final rinse, which means that you save about 20 percent of energy. Today's dishwasher detergent works best and tablets dissolve better when the program starts with cold water.
> Dishwashers connected to cold water use around 30 percent less energy than dishwashers connected to hot water. A dishwasher connected to cold water only uses hot water when it is really needed.
https://www.cylinda.se/produktguide/kok/diskmaskiner
https://www.electroluxhome.se/vitvaror/diskmaskin/inspiratio...
> Connect the machine to cold water if possible. Then the dishwasher itself heats up the water during the washing phase and the final rinse, which means that you save about 20 percent of energy. Today's dishwasher detergent works best and tablets dissolve better when the program starts with cold water.
> Dishwashers connected to cold water use around 30 percent less energy than dishwashers connected to hot water. A dishwasher connected to cold water only uses hot water when it is really needed.
https://www.cylinda.se/produktguide/kok/diskmaskiner
https://www.electroluxhome.se/vitvaror/diskmaskin/inspiratio...
> Plates are often made of some glass-like or ceramic-like material and not that easily damaged by chemicals.
A ceramic is a glass (or the other way around), just of a different material composition. And yes, a dishwasher can easily damage both glassware and ceramic dishes depending on how the glass (or glaze, in the case of a ceramic dish) was formulated.
A common durability test for ceramic engineers is indeed — placing it in the dishwasher.
A ceramic is a glass (or the other way around), just of a different material composition. And yes, a dishwasher can easily damage both glassware and ceramic dishes depending on how the glass (or glaze, in the case of a ceramic dish) was formulated.
A common durability test for ceramic engineers is indeed — placing it in the dishwasher.
> this only makes sense in the US (or wherever else it's common for your dishwasher not to heat its own water).
American dishwashers heat their own water too - I think this is for cases when the dishwasher has a time limit on how long it will spend heating up the water (perhaps to meet expectations on cycle length).
American dishwashers heat their own water too - I think this is for cases when the dishwasher has a time limit on how long it will spend heating up the water (perhaps to meet expectations on cycle length).
American dishwashers hook up to the hot water line, vs the cold water line in some other countries. They do have their own heaters, but household models are limited to 1200-1800 watts.
The pre-wash/pre-rinse cycle may only give enough time to raise the temperature 10-15 °F before the regular wash cycle starts. I do not believe they will delay the start of the wash cycle due to the water not yet being to target.
Starting with cold water reduces the effectiveness of the initial rinse, and may reduce effectiveness or prolong the wash cycle.
The pre-wash/pre-rinse cycle may only give enough time to raise the temperature 10-15 °F before the regular wash cycle starts. I do not believe they will delay the start of the wash cycle due to the water not yet being to target.
Starting with cold water reduces the effectiveness of the initial rinse, and may reduce effectiveness or prolong the wash cycle.
> Plates are often made of some glass-like or ceramic-like material and not that easily damaged by chemicals.
The edges/sides of my Corelle plates (a layered tempered glass) are rough due to the dishwasher. Also, those with prints have faded significantly.
The edges/sides of my Corelle plates (a layered tempered glass) are rough due to the dishwasher. Also, those with prints have faded significantly.
Yeah this is a common problem with dishwashers and certain types of glass, it’s called “etching.”
My US-sold, 2015-purchased Bosch dishwasher handles its own heating.
The first water cycle does not get heated, but all subsequent ones do. I’m tempted at switching it to the cold water line.
The first water cycle does not get heated, but all subsequent ones do. I’m tempted at switching it to the cold water line.
The initial rinse cycle never heats water. Running hot will help.
Hot and cold is run totally separate in the UK, I still don't think this would do anything...
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here, but I'm assuming you mean they run each source in separate lines. That's the same in the US. The point is that these pipes aren't well insulated so the line has probably cooled even though it is a "hot" line. Running the water a little bit flushes the cooled water out so that only hot water goes into the dishwasher. Because even though it is a "hot" line it gets cold over time if it isn't being cycled. Maybe in the UK you're much closer to the hot water source, but in the US houses are often so big and poorly designed that you need to run the water a bit before you get really hot water from the tap.
>But don't put two pods in, i.e. one in the detergent tray, and another detergent pod into the tub because these pods are very concentrated and harsh and will damage plates. Only add a little extra powder
This is a strange optimization choice. I'd much rather replace plates slightly more often vs. spend time each night handwashing or rinsing dishes. My philosophy is to put everything in the dishwasher regardless of 'diswasher safe'. If it breaks, I replace it with some other dish/cup brand. In a short time you are left with durable cook and glassware that the dishwasher can clean by itself.
This is a strange optimization choice. I'd much rather replace plates slightly more often vs. spend time each night handwashing or rinsing dishes. My philosophy is to put everything in the dishwasher regardless of 'diswasher safe'. If it breaks, I replace it with some other dish/cup brand. In a short time you are left with durable cook and glassware that the dishwasher can clean by itself.
> In a short time you are left with durable cook and glassware that the dishwasher can clean by itself.
While I quite like this Darwinistic approach, I've not actually had this problem other than with printed or gilded patterns. Although I need a better solution for my grandmother's EPNS spoons.
While I quite like this Darwinistic approach, I've not actually had this problem other than with printed or gilded patterns. Although I need a better solution for my grandmother's EPNS spoons.
There’s also doubling the environmental impact of already pretty nasty dishwasher detergent.
Dishwasher pods are a lot worse than powder. The pods contain plastic which dissolves in the water. The powder used to contain phosphates (which caused a major disruption to aquatic ecosystems) but doesn’t anymore.
In France, the "lower-end" pods are wrapped in plastic, but it doesn't dissolve, you have to remove it manually. The more expensive ones use that as an argument: "no need to unwrap! just stick in the machine!". I'm not convinced that for the cheaper ones the wrapping is necessary, but at least it doesn't go (directly?) in the water.
Are you sure? The only pods that has a wrapping that is not supposed to be removed by the user are wrapped in gelatin here (EU).
> gelatin
Wait, does that mean that dishwashing pods are not Vegan?
Wait, does that mean that dishwashing pods are not Vegan?
Apparently not! But there are specific vegan labeled dishwasher pods on the market.
Interestingly I believe in many countries (but not the USA) phosphates were removed from laundry detergent but not dishwasher detergent.
Just as a data point, in the EU phosphates in dishwasher detergents are banned since 2017. Laundry detergents are phosphate-free since 2013. All other detergents are limited to some amount, but I can't find which.
As it is often the case in the EU these regulations are aimed at consumer level products. Industrial level products are regulated differently, if at all. I don't know details.
As it is often the case in the EU these regulations are aimed at consumer level products. Industrial level products are regulated differently, if at all. I don't know details.
This method fails with aluminum baking sheets and other cookware.
FWIW, his videos are long because they're not designed to convey a few practical takeaways—they're usually deep dives into the way that the tech works, and he gets into all kinds of details that aren't useful if all you want is the tl;dr "what should I do with this" information.
However, those details are exactly why I follow his channel! I'm a million times more confident repairing my own appliances than I was before I found his videos, and it's not because he has videos on how to repair my specific appliances, it's because his deep dives into a wide variety of appliances have given me a good intuition for how these kinds of machines work.
However, those details are exactly why I follow his channel! I'm a million times more confident repairing my own appliances than I was before I found his videos, and it's not because he has videos on how to repair my specific appliances, it's because his deep dives into a wide variety of appliances have given me a good intuition for how these kinds of machines work.
He also shows off good features that are worth owning, making us more confident buyers as well. For instance I feel his video on smoke detectors should be required viewing to any responsible homeowner/renter. And he showcases the decline/lack of adoption of proper features in consumer appliances, i.e. all toasters should be variations of the Sunbeam T-20B IMO.
Yes! I actually found him through his Sunbeam toaster videos after my wife and I inherited one—I wanted to better understand how it works. They're every bit as cool as he says.
I've seen a handful of his videos but not the one on smoke detectors. I replaced our batteries this week (once one of them chirps and I hear it, I replace them all, or else they end up with drastically different states of battery power -- which is at least a little bit funny... How do they all not drain power at a similar rate?) and it got me thinking about how very little I understand about these critical devices.
Slight variations on the electronics give slightly different characteristics, and hence different power draws... but also, the batteries are also going to have slightly different capacities, so you have random amounts of power draw clustered around a given value, and random amounts of capacity also clustered, so combined you might end up with a detector drawing 70uA on a 540mAh cell, and one doing 50uA on a 560mAh cell, but the cell voltage they start chirping at is exactly the same.
> How do they all not drain power at a similar rate?
Also, try using less soap. Too much soap can interfere with the cleaning or leave soap residue.
I really don't understand why people espouse this channel. If you watch it for entertainment sure, I suppose this video is better than watching some guys video essay about Man of Steel, but if I just want to learn about something asking me to watch 30 minutes of drivel makes no sense.
I almost always learn things for fun, not because I'm deliberately trying to better myself (turns out self improvement comes easily for me when I don't overthink things).
I'd much rather watch a 30 minute video that's entertaining and teaches me something than skim read a document for a few minutes.
He also tends to go into all sorts of interesting tangents that I probably wouldn't have even found out about if I was researching this stuff myself.
I'd much rather watch a 30 minute video that's entertaining and teaches me something than skim read a document for a few minutes.
He also tends to go into all sorts of interesting tangents that I probably wouldn't have even found out about if I was researching this stuff myself.
I love his videos. They are not tutorials and so do not need to be concise and to the point. They are video essays from which I learn many things in a good amount of detail, and i have a fun time doing it because he writes entertaining scripts.
Most youtube videos stop at the "what", whereas his also go into the "how" and "why". Some of us are interested in answering those questions.
Learning how's and why's also gives you tools to think about future things you encounter as well. You get a greater understanding of the world.
Learning how's and why's also gives you tools to think about future things you encounter as well. You get a greater understanding of the world.
I think his videos go much deeper into topics I didn't realize I cared about and I find them fascinating for it. It's not about the destination it's about the journey.
Different people have different tastes. I like his videos.
Many people also don't clean their dishwashers regularly. You need to remove the filter on the bottom and wash it clean once a month, at least.
Also, the nozzles on the spray arms can become clogged. The easiest method to clean everything is to add one of those "cleaning" tablets to a normal wash. These are just Sodium Hydroxide, which chemically converts accumulates fats and greases into soap.
Also, the nozzles on the spray arms can become clogged. The easiest method to clean everything is to add one of those "cleaning" tablets to a normal wash. These are just Sodium Hydroxide, which chemically converts accumulates fats and greases into soap.
Disclaimer: I live in EU.
I don't like cleaning the dishwasher during normal cycles. I don't like eating more chemicals than I have to.
I clean the (German made) dishwasher when it tells me to using products designed for this.
https://shop.rema1000.dk/varer/145820
and
https://www.fjordbutikken.dk/sterling-citronsyre-til-afkalkn...
The first on removes dirt .. mostly fat I think.
The second removes lime using citric acid crystals. You could use vinegar instead I think.
The water hardness has something to do with the amount of salt the dishwasher uses so it needs to be set correctly.
I don't have any issues with the dishwasher.. I had it for 5 years.
I don't like cleaning the dishwasher during normal cycles. I don't like eating more chemicals than I have to.
I clean the (German made) dishwasher when it tells me to using products designed for this.
https://shop.rema1000.dk/varer/145820
and
https://www.fjordbutikken.dk/sterling-citronsyre-til-afkalkn...
The first on removes dirt .. mostly fat I think.
The second removes lime using citric acid crystals. You could use vinegar instead I think.
The water hardness has something to do with the amount of salt the dishwasher uses so it needs to be set correctly.
I don't have any issues with the dishwasher.. I had it for 5 years.
I just do a wash with CLR once every year or so.
https://clrbrands.com/Products/CLR-Household/CLR-Calcium-Lim...
This is probably a 'different problem', in that I have hard water, and calcium buildup is a thing here. It also builds on the plates and everything. So.. I do a full load, all dishes, with CLR. Yes, I do a second wash after.
To give an idea, if I put a pot full of water on the stove, and boil it to empty, I'll end up with a solid disc of calcium and other elemets at the bottom, about 1mm thick!
https://clrbrands.com/Products/CLR-Household/CLR-Calcium-Lim...
This is probably a 'different problem', in that I have hard water, and calcium buildup is a thing here. It also builds on the plates and everything. So.. I do a full load, all dishes, with CLR. Yes, I do a second wash after.
To give an idea, if I put a pot full of water on the stove, and boil it to empty, I'll end up with a solid disc of calcium and other elemets at the bottom, about 1mm thick!
Wow, that's a lot of dry residue on water. I guess that you don't get much foam from soap and/or shampoo.
Do you use filters for drinking water or just bottled water?
Do you use filters for drinking water or just bottled water?
I have to use a lot more soap, for example, if I wash my hands, I have to wet them, then soap them up without them being near the water, then after they are very agitated, put them under the water. The soap instantly disappears.
I have a cooler with delivered water. I probably could drink the well water, how much calcium and such does milk have? But I'd have to test it more often.
I have a cooler with delivered water. I probably could drink the well water, how much calcium and such does milk have? But I'd have to test it more often.
Our water also contains a lot of calcium.
The cleaning program is probably executed every two months or so. I'm assuming that the dishwasher can sense if the pumps it contains use more energy to pump water (I know pumps that can give the user this info but I think this is an estimate based on some magic numbers from the designers of the motor control software).
It might be also a simple timer. :)
The cleaning program is probably executed every two months or so. I'm assuming that the dishwasher can sense if the pumps it contains use more energy to pump water (I know pumps that can give the user this info but I think this is an estimate based on some magic numbers from the designers of the motor control software).
It might be also a simple timer. :)
I have owned my current dishwasher for about 15 years, and I have never once cleaned it. It's working just fine.
Conversely, my wife insists on not pre-rinsing the dishes and that filter gets real gross, real quick. Unless you mean the spinny arms, never cleaned those before.
Next you’ll be telling me she doesn’t pre-rinse the laundry before putting it in the washer!
I guess the best comparison would be, if you have stuff all over your clothes, you'd probably shake the clothes off before putting them in the washer.
EG, I use the 'weed wacker' to cut up stuff, or I am racking leaves, I get pants with plant debris on them. I tend to shake them off first.
EG, I use the 'weed wacker' to cut up stuff, or I am racking leaves, I get pants with plant debris on them. I tend to shake them off first.
That'd be the equivalent of scraping your dishes, not rinsing them
Well, sorta. I find it easier to rince small stuff off, and that doesn't work with fabric really, but your point is fair.
Giving the filter a quick wash once a week is way less work than pre-rinsing all your dishes.
Presumably plates had the leftovers scraped off into the compost bin before putting into dishwasher anyways.
Presumably plates had the leftovers scraped off into the compost bin before putting into dishwasher anyways.
> need […] once a month, at least
This strikes me as an abuse of the word “need”, in my opinion.
This strikes me as an abuse of the word “need”, in my opinion.
I keep telling my customers that they don't "need" to patch their Internet-facing Windows web servers in the same sense that they don't "need" to replace the oil filters in their car.
Look, yes, you ought to replace the filter every six months to a year, but will your car stop dead the very next day if you don't? No!
It also won't stop the day after, or the day after that. Ergo, by induction, we come to the conclusion that the 2012 R2 server on RTM patch level is not professional negligence.
It's just simple logic.
Look, yes, you ought to replace the filter every six months to a year, but will your car stop dead the very next day if you don't? No!
It also won't stop the day after, or the day after that. Ergo, by induction, we come to the conclusion that the 2012 R2 server on RTM patch level is not professional negligence.
It's just simple logic.
It’s a difference of degree, doses of magnitude of degrees. In fact, you should patch your serve on the order of years, just the same as your should patch your fridge filter.
[deleted]
Phosphates keep the dishwasher clean for much longer. I just add the phosphates back to my powder. So much simpler and the environmental concerns have proven to be total bullshit. Phosphates can be managed at the waste water treatment facilities. Unless you are washing dishes in a river, the regulation should happen at the discharge point.
There's an entire follow-up video to this that points to errors in his original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&t=2223s
None that go against the thesis- though there's a lot of additional information that's pretty interesting.
That's incorrect -
1. He points out that a powder Detergent by itself is less effective than a combination of powder and gel. Something that the pods provide built in.
2. His own experiment with the prewash were completely underwhelming, showing nearly identical results in addition to not proving any different in the final result.
1. He points out that a powder Detergent by itself is less effective than a combination of powder and gel. Something that the pods provide built in.
2. His own experiment with the prewash were completely underwhelming, showing nearly identical results in addition to not proving any different in the final result.
I couldn't find where he says the powder alone is worse than powder and gel. There is a section discussing how any gel detergent will have at most one out of enzymes and bleach- is that what you're thinking of? The actual test you refer to happened in the first video. I don't think it's too surprising. Dishwashers work pretty well!
Also worth checking your dishwasher manual to see if it has a minimum temperature requirement for the incoming water. If it does, run the kitchen faucet till the water gets as hot as it can before starting the dishwasher. Many cheap dishwashers have a heating element which cannot heat the water to the required cycle temperature unless the incoming water is hotter than a certain temperature. More expensive dishwashers can work with cold or hot water.
My belief is that manufacturers use the same heating elements between europe (240V, but often piped to the cold water line) and North America (120V, but usually piped to the hot water line).
No matter what, North American dishwashers will only be able to draw 1500w, and probably less because they're not always on a dedicated circuit, and have other power needs than just heat. So it's probably not a "cheap diswasher" vs expensive one issue.
No matter what, North American dishwashers will only be able to draw 1500w, and probably less because they're not always on a dedicated circuit, and have other power needs than just heat. So it's probably not a "cheap diswasher" vs expensive one issue.
The amount of water heated up in each cycle is small enough that 1500W is not the limiting factor. Maytag recommends connecting to the hot water outlet and recommends a minimum temperature of 120F [1].
The Miele user manual for their USA models recommends connecting to the cold water inlet unless the hot water is known to be heated by a very efficient source [2].
[1] https://producthelp.maytag.com/Dishwashers/Product_Info/Dish...
[2] https://media.miele.com/downloads/05/c4/00_96106053F20B1EDDB...
The Miele user manual for their USA models recommends connecting to the cold water inlet unless the hot water is known to be heated by a very efficient source [2].
[1] https://producthelp.maytag.com/Dishwashers/Product_Info/Dish...
[2] https://media.miele.com/downloads/05/c4/00_96106053F20B1EDDB...
> recommends connecting to the cold water inlet unless the hot water is known to be heated by a very efficient source
Huh? How does it matter to the dishwasher?
Huh? How does it matter to the dishwasher?
It doesn’t. They just assume that the user is looking for the most efficient solution. There are pros and cons though. The delicate crystal cycle uses a very low temperature and will only work with cold water. Some of the faster cycles will only be as fast as claimed if the supplier water is already hot.
I haven't checked code - but since my wiring had the dishwasher and garbage disposal shared on a single 20A, I would expect that each now have a requirement to not consume more than 1200W.
At 1200W and a 2.5 gallon wash cycle, I'd expect heating from 70 to 130F would take about 20 minutes. Unless the pre-rinse cycle was extended, I would expect this would mean the soap was released at the start of the wash cycle before the water was to temperature.
At 1200W and a 2.5 gallon wash cycle, I'd expect heating from 70 to 130F would take about 20 minutes. Unless the pre-rinse cycle was extended, I would expect this would mean the soap was released at the start of the wash cycle before the water was to temperature.
I’ve seen no models that are the same across the US and EU market, do you have any evidence for this?
... And don't forget to check that your dishwasher actually is hooked up to hot water, not cold.
I don't think many people outside of the US actually hook their dishwasher up to hot water? And dishwashers work just fine in eg Germany.
(Though they might have different dishwashers in Europe with better heating?)
(Though they might have different dishwashers in Europe with better heating?)
I'm rather confused about that as well. My dishwasher is hooked up to cold water because that's the only option.
Why would it be the only option? It seems to be the standard in Europe, but not sure why you couldn’t connect it to the hot water line instead. This is especially true if you have an efficient hot water source like solar or a heat pump water heater.
You have to hire (or be) a plumber to make the change. Often getting access to the pipes can be tricky. Depends on how your house is though. Sometimes this is as simple as connecting the hose to the other valve already in place, sometimes this means opening up the wall to get access to the pipes.
Normally the only pipe that's available to dishwashers is the cold water pipe.
However, even if you had hot water available, it would actually be to hot. The hot water entering can be much hotter than the required 30C for the lowest setting, so the dishwasher would need to cool the water.
However, even if you had hot water available, it would actually be to hot. The hot water entering can be much hotter than the required 30C for the lowest setting, so the dishwasher would need to cool the water.
In the U.S. dishwashers are almost always installed directly next to the kitchen sink, where either the cold or hot line can be easily tapped with a tee valve. I guess plumbing/kitchen layout is done differently in Europe.
As for heat setting, what’s the reason to be concerned with tap water being too hot? I don’t think plumbing code would allow water to be available at the tap that was hot enough to actually damage any type of utensil/drinkware/etc? I presume the only reason there might be a lower heat setting is simply for energy savings, which is kind of moot if you’re instead pulling hot water from the efficiently heated water supply.
As for heat setting, what’s the reason to be concerned with tap water being too hot? I don’t think plumbing code would allow water to be available at the tap that was hot enough to actually damage any type of utensil/drinkware/etc? I presume the only reason there might be a lower heat setting is simply for energy savings, which is kind of moot if you’re instead pulling hot water from the efficiently heated water supply.
America's Test Kitchen, back when it was good (AKA when Chris was in control), said that the easiest thing to do was just use the pods that had as many colors of liquid as possible. With that advice, I've had good results 100% of the time.
> America's Test Kitchen, back when it was good (AKA when Chris was in control), said that the easiest thing to do was just use the pods that had as many colors of liquid as possible.
1. I don't see any/much difference in pre- and post-Christopher Kimball ATK. The rest of the senior staff is basically the same, so I'm not sure what would have changed.
2. What exactly is so special about the colored liquids? What is the chemical make-up of them and their purpose? And are the liquids the same between difference brands? Is the red of one the same as the red as another? Or is the red of one have an equivalent to another (brandA->red = brandB->blue)?
Because unless you know what the liquids are/do, you're just cargo culting. By some account the liquids to nothing practical:
> Chemistry expert and former detergent chemist here, chiming in. Modulo some small semantic differences, you're 100% spot on. Functionally, there is zero difference in the formulations. Every powder dish detergent on the market comprises the same functional components, though the exact chemicals selected may vary. It's always some combination of detergent, anti-deposition agent, water conditioners, strong base, oxidizers, enzymes, buffers, "processing aids", and what I call "foo foo juice" - colors and fragrances.
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&lc=Ugxn7pFkryB_j...
1. I don't see any/much difference in pre- and post-Christopher Kimball ATK. The rest of the senior staff is basically the same, so I'm not sure what would have changed.
2. What exactly is so special about the colored liquids? What is the chemical make-up of them and their purpose? And are the liquids the same between difference brands? Is the red of one the same as the red as another? Or is the red of one have an equivalent to another (brandA->red = brandB->blue)?
Because unless you know what the liquids are/do, you're just cargo culting. By some account the liquids to nothing practical:
> Chemistry expert and former detergent chemist here, chiming in. Modulo some small semantic differences, you're 100% spot on. Functionally, there is zero difference in the formulations. Every powder dish detergent on the market comprises the same functional components, though the exact chemicals selected may vary. It's always some combination of detergent, anti-deposition agent, water conditioners, strong base, oxidizers, enzymes, buffers, "processing aids", and what I call "foo foo juice" - colors and fragrances.
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&lc=Ugxn7pFkryB_j...
> Because unless you know what the liquids are/do, you're just cargo culting
Right. Specifically, its the kind of advice that even if it works on the market at the time it is written, if it gets popular, it is very trivially subject to gaming in the way that gives truth to Goodhart's Law. "More colors of liquid in the pod = sells better" is an obvious target for trivial optimization with no change in substantive composition.
Right. Specifically, its the kind of advice that even if it works on the market at the time it is written, if it gets popular, it is very trivially subject to gaming in the way that gives truth to Goodhart's Law. "More colors of liquid in the pod = sells better" is an obvious target for trivial optimization with no change in substantive composition.
> [...] an obvious target for trivial optimization with no change in substantive composition.
On the other hand, if they care enough to manufacture the pods with multiple liquid compartments, why not put the good stuff in them? I don't think the chemical composition will meaningfully change the cost.
On the other hand, if they care enough to manufacture the pods with multiple liquid compartments, why not put the good stuff in them? I don't think the chemical composition will meaningfully change the cost.
I think the point is that those pods with all the colours of liquid as well as the tablet of powder at back are actually no more effective than plain old store brand loose powder, yet they cost 5 times as much.
> why not put the good stuff in them?
Because the good stuff may cost more than the 'placebo', and given each pod can cost 10-30¢ each, small amounts matter in terms of margin.
Because the good stuff may cost more than the 'placebo', and given each pod can cost 10-30¢ each, small amounts matter in terms of margin.
> 1. I don't see any/much difference in pre- and post-Christopher Kimball ATK. The rest of the senior staff is basically the same, so I'm not sure what would have changed.
The direction completely changed. Now it's all about fancier foods and restaurant stuff. Compare an episode from 2010 to now. Complete difference.
> Because unless you know what the liquids are/do, you're just cargo culting. By some account the liquids to nothing practical:
Uh, yeah, by definition I'm appealing to authority. Namely the authority of the people who did the comparison testing in America's Test Kitchen. That's literally why I watch it: because they know better than me and they put in the work.
The direction completely changed. Now it's all about fancier foods and restaurant stuff. Compare an episode from 2010 to now. Complete difference.
> Because unless you know what the liquids are/do, you're just cargo culting. By some account the liquids to nothing practical:
Uh, yeah, by definition I'm appealing to authority. Namely the authority of the people who did the comparison testing in America's Test Kitchen. That's literally why I watch it: because they know better than me and they put in the work.
> The direction completely changed. Now it's all about fancier foods and restaurant stuff. Compare an episode from 2010 to now. Complete difference.
Is the fanciness of ATK any different that CK's Milk Street? Season six of the latter had Jordanian, Brazillian (pizza), Turkish, falafel, Mexican, Greek cuisine; season five had Ethopian, Japan, Ukraine, Crete, etc:
* https://www.youtube.com/@ChristopherKimballsMilkStreet/video...
If anything it's Kimball that seems to have gone in the high falutin' direction. Regardless: if fancy is where the viewers/audience numbers are now, then that's the direction that either/both shows have to go to. What was done in 2010, or whenever, is irrelevant if the landsacape has changed.
> That's literally why I watch it: because they know better than me and they put in the work.
That's fine, but the authority should at least explain why so the more curious viewer could dig into things more. The YT link to the Technology Connections videos is to a comment by a chemists that breaks things down:
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&lc=Ugxn7pFkryB_j...
For example:
> Some pods, such as our top pick and runner-up pick, contain additional liquid cleaning agents in separate chambers that release when the PVA film dissolves. This design keeps liquid and powder separate until they are dispensed, allowing detergent boosters that best operate in liquid form to combine with powder detergent during a dishwasher’s cycle, enhancing their effectiveness.
* https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-dishwasher-d...
Is the fanciness of ATK any different that CK's Milk Street? Season six of the latter had Jordanian, Brazillian (pizza), Turkish, falafel, Mexican, Greek cuisine; season five had Ethopian, Japan, Ukraine, Crete, etc:
* https://www.youtube.com/@ChristopherKimballsMilkStreet/video...
If anything it's Kimball that seems to have gone in the high falutin' direction. Regardless: if fancy is where the viewers/audience numbers are now, then that's the direction that either/both shows have to go to. What was done in 2010, or whenever, is irrelevant if the landsacape has changed.
> That's literally why I watch it: because they know better than me and they put in the work.
That's fine, but the authority should at least explain why so the more curious viewer could dig into things more. The YT link to the Technology Connections videos is to a comment by a chemists that breaks things down:
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&lc=Ugxn7pFkryB_j...
For example:
> Some pods, such as our top pick and runner-up pick, contain additional liquid cleaning agents in separate chambers that release when the PVA film dissolves. This design keeps liquid and powder separate until they are dispensed, allowing detergent boosters that best operate in liquid form to combine with powder detergent during a dishwasher’s cycle, enhancing their effectiveness.
* https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-dishwasher-d...
Those colored pods made little sense to me. Do those different liquids get released at different times? Saw someone test it out on YouTube that showed not be the case. Or do they have some sort of unstable reaction when they get mixed? If not, then, what's the point?
> Or do they have some sort of unstable reaction when they get mixed?
Yup this is what it is. My understanding is they have different enzymes that clean better but need to be mixed at the time of washing.
Yup this is what it is. My understanding is they have different enzymes that clean better but need to be mixed at the time of washing.
>said that the easiest thing to do was just use the pods that had as many colors of liquid as possible. With that advice, I've had good results 100% of the time.
this seems like bad advice. Setting aside the question of whether the colors actually do anything, once this "advice" is known it's only a matter of time before inferior brands add a mix of food coloring to their detergent pods to look more premium.
this seems like bad advice. Setting aside the question of whether the colors actually do anything, once this "advice" is known it's only a matter of time before inferior brands add a mix of food coloring to their detergent pods to look more premium.
I found good results with the pods too - either cascade platinum or the finish powerball ones.
One other thing made a difference between good and bad cleaning in a load - plates near the dispenser.
The detergent dispenser is in the door and putting plates on the bottom rack sort of between the bottom rotating arm and the dispenser seemed to interfere with the pod. It would prevent or delay dissolving the pod and mixing with the water. leaving some free space in the bottom rack in that location was key.
One other thing made a difference between good and bad cleaning in a load - plates near the dispenser.
The detergent dispenser is in the door and putting plates on the bottom rack sort of between the bottom rotating arm and the dispenser seemed to interfere with the pod. It would prevent or delay dissolving the pod and mixing with the water. leaving some free space in the bottom rack in that location was key.
That was probably their brand-neutral way of saying to use Cascade Platinum. Not to sound like a shill but that’s the only product that’s actually worked well for my current dishwasher. Everything else leaves a lot of residue or doesn’t actually clean.
I switched to buying powder from Amazon because the local supermarket only carries pods now. Huge cost premium is right.
The same for washing machine detergent. Why anyone would pay $$$ to have water come with their detergent is beyond me.
In the same vein, antifreeze now comes "premixed" with water. Gaaaaah. I just keep looking till I find the lonely 100% antifreeze jug.
The same for washing machine detergent. Why anyone would pay $$$ to have water come with their detergent is beyond me.
In the same vein, antifreeze now comes "premixed" with water. Gaaaaah. I just keep looking till I find the lonely 100% antifreeze jug.
> The same for washing machine detergent. Why anyone would pay $$$ to have water come with their detergent is beyond me.
Because powder detergent (no matter if for laundry or dishes) has a nasty tendency to pull in moisture from the air, leading to it clumping up and getting ineffective. If you have a family with small children that produce a lot of dishes and laundry, you may get away with it but if you're single / DINK no way.
> In the same vein, antifreeze now comes "premixed" with water. Gaaaaah. I just keep looking till I find the lonely 100% antifreeze jug.
That one is because most people don't use distilled water to dilute, but tap water instead... which can carry serious issues, either because it dissolves the piping (see e.g. Flint water crisis) or because limescale builds up in the engine where it's hot and eventually clogs up, leading to engine failure.
Because powder detergent (no matter if for laundry or dishes) has a nasty tendency to pull in moisture from the air, leading to it clumping up and getting ineffective. If you have a family with small children that produce a lot of dishes and laundry, you may get away with it but if you're single / DINK no way.
> In the same vein, antifreeze now comes "premixed" with water. Gaaaaah. I just keep looking till I find the lonely 100% antifreeze jug.
That one is because most people don't use distilled water to dilute, but tap water instead... which can carry serious issues, either because it dissolves the piping (see e.g. Flint water crisis) or because limescale builds up in the engine where it's hot and eventually clogs up, leading to engine failure.
I've never had any trouble with either of your points.
> Why anyone would pay $$$ to have water come with their detergent is beyond me.
I pay so that I don't have to add yet another thing to my increasingly limited free time. The older I get the happier I am to pay extra so I have to do less.
I pay so that I don't have to add yet another thing to my increasingly limited free time. The older I get the happier I am to pay extra so I have to do less.
[deleted]
I'll have to try Amazon. Anything other than tablets seems to have gone outright extinct in UK supermarkets. Some brands (e.g. Morrison's value) have their tablets in tear-open plastic sachets, so I can break it and put 1/3 straight in for the pre-wash, but I expect they'll switch to the dissolvable wrap type soon (which is probably a good thing for the environment)
> to match the water hardness in your area which can result in a film on your clean dishes.
Or invest in a water softener. They’re a one-time expense and almost no maintenance (aside from a small expense/maintenance for salt), and are beneficial for a number of things:
- improved appliance longevity
- eliminating scale buildup on toilets and faucets
- improving the health of your skin and hair
- everything cleans more easily
Or invest in a water softener. They’re a one-time expense and almost no maintenance (aside from a small expense/maintenance for salt), and are beneficial for a number of things:
- improved appliance longevity
- eliminating scale buildup on toilets and faucets
- improving the health of your skin and hair
- everything cleans more easily
When I was setting up our Bosch dishwasher, there was a water hardness option. The machine has a built-in salt tank and is fully capable of regulating water hardness on it's own. You just have to top it up every now and then.
I wouldn't say almost no maintenance—the water softener is the single highest maintenance appliance I own. I can never manage to stay on top of the salt input that's required.
I fill mine twice a year, with about 5-6 bags each fill. Maybe there are different sizes, but when I was shopping around, most seemed to have about the same capacity.
So for me, I'd say something that takes me about 30 minutes to do (including the trip to get the salt) twice a year is fairly low maintenance.
So for me, I'd say something that takes me about 30 minutes to do (including the trip to get the salt) twice a year is fairly low maintenance.
Not an option for renters, who also don't have the luxury of the option of fixing or replacing bad dishwashers.
Also, when I lived in the Midwest I could barely tell the water softener was there. I would descale my kettle and the first pot already had a thick layer on it. I now use a countertop RO system.
Also, when I lived in the Midwest I could barely tell the water softener was there. I would descale my kettle and the first pot already had a thick layer on it. I now use a countertop RO system.
> when I lived in the Midwest I could barely tell the water softener was there
I guess it depends on how hard the water is, I suppose, but could also be the type of softener. I'm not sure, I haven't done a lot of research on it, as it seems to just work.
But in my experience, I can tell a huge difference (vs. the house we moved from that didn't have a softener). I never see any scale on our appliances, faucets, shower doors, etc.
When showering, I can tell when I've forgotten to refill the salt just from the feel of the water.
I guess it depends on how hard the water is, I suppose, but could also be the type of softener. I'm not sure, I haven't done a lot of research on it, as it seems to just work.
But in my experience, I can tell a huge difference (vs. the house we moved from that didn't have a softener). I never see any scale on our appliances, faucets, shower doors, etc.
When showering, I can tell when I've forgotten to refill the salt just from the feel of the water.
I think that this advice from Technology Connections is bad advice. I was having huge problems getting my dishes clean in early-mid 2020. I thought my dishwasher was broken and needed to be repaired, and then it started working again.
What made it stop washing? I had switched to powdered detergent because I couldn't find pods due to COVID shortages. When I found pods again, I bought them. I've never had problems since.
What made it stop washing? I had switched to powdered detergent because I couldn't find pods due to COVID shortages. When I found pods again, I bought them. I've never had problems since.
This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me if it’s true that pods are just water-soluble wrappers around the same detergent.
Is there a case that they’re something else?
Is there a case that they’re something else?
I don’t know if this happened here, but sometimes if the soap door is time released water infiltrated the chamber and it cakes up and doesn’t release properly. My observation is this happens less often with pods likely because they don’t dissolve rapidly enough.
The colorful liquids (or equivalent) in the pods are surfactants and other fun things that are not practical to formulate as powders. So they really do clean differently.
Of course, there are other ways to formulate things, but they all have tradeoffs.
Of course, there are other ways to formulate things, but they all have tradeoffs.
Dishwashing powder 100% has surfactants in it.
I can't find any pods that are just water-soluble wrappers of the powdered detergent. All of them have additional compartments in the pods for other chemicals, and all the pods do clean a hell of a lot better than just powdered detergent.
I had switched earlier this year after seeing the Technology Connections video, and I'm ready to switch back. The pods are just better.
I had switched earlier this year after seeing the Technology Connections video, and I'm ready to switch back. The pods are just better.
I stopped using tablets and started using powder after watching this exact video by Technology Connections. Highly recommend the watch.
The advice from that video to put powdered detergent in the prewash has been a huge improvement to our dishwashing. We now put the powder in the prewash section, but keep using tablets for the main wash just because of inertia I suppose, but it works great.
Also helpful: running the sink's hot water before you run the dishwasher, until it heats up, so that the dishwasher has access to hot water from the moment it starts.
The world outside the US just hooks dishwashers up to the cold water supply and it washes just fine. Are US machines different?
Yes. North American dishwashers don’t heat the water during the prewash cycle because the duration in time is too short and the 120V electrical service can’t supply enough power to heat the water quickly during that time.
European dishwashers use 240V (like everything else in the house) and so they can heat water much more quickly.
This electrical difference is also reflected in the fact that electric kettles (for boiling water) aren’t nearly as popular in North America as they are in Europe. Technology Connections also did a video on this topic [1].
[1] https://youtu.be/_yMMTVVJI4c
European dishwashers use 240V (like everything else in the house) and so they can heat water much more quickly.
This electrical difference is also reflected in the fact that electric kettles (for boiling water) aren’t nearly as popular in North America as they are in Europe. Technology Connections also did a video on this topic [1].
[1] https://youtu.be/_yMMTVVJI4c
As a former British person I'm not sure this is true now. The 220V supply part is true, but you can buy electric kettles at Costco and they boil plenty fast on 120V and everyone who drinks tea has one in my experience.
Just checking Amazon, most popular local (230V) kettles are 2200W, with some 2400W options. Checking Costco, US kettles are 1500W. Assuming equal efficiency, the European kettle takes between 62% and 68% the time it takes a US kettle to boil the same water
Of course equal efficiency isn't necessarily a given. The insulation and the design of the heating element can have a notable impact on heating time. And for small amounts it likely doesn't matter that much. But assuming equal construction it is still a very notable difference.
Of course equal efficiency isn't necessarily a given. The insulation and the design of the heating element can have a notable impact on heating time. And for small amounts it likely doesn't matter that much. But assuming equal construction it is still a very notable difference.
It's sort of a physical impossibility. If your kettle is limited to 1500W, it's always going to be slower than a kettle operating at 3000W.
Which can waste a bunch of water. I do mine by hand and am often done before the hot water arrives.
The follow-up to the video is worth linking to, if only because it explains why liquid detergent is crap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU
Although I generally like Technology Connections, I've always found that particular TC video hilariously wrong. Every dishwasher I've ever owned has been basically a sterilizing machine, not a cleaning machine. I always wash all my dishes by hand to the point where there is no visible food on them before I put them into the dishwasher, because if I don't do that half my dishes come out of the dishwasher with food crud still on them.
And no, I'm not talking about crappy, dirty, worn-out dishwashers. I'm talking about state-of-the art modern dishwashers. I thought it was normal for everybody that you had to wash all your dishes by hand before putting them in the dishwasher. I thought TC was basically making a big joke, but after TFA I'm thinking maybe dishwashers do exist (or did exist?) that actually ... wash dishes?? And don't take 4 hours to do it??
And no, I'm not talking about crappy, dirty, worn-out dishwashers. I'm talking about state-of-the art modern dishwashers. I thought it was normal for everybody that you had to wash all your dishes by hand before putting them in the dishwasher. I thought TC was basically making a big joke, but after TFA I'm thinking maybe dishwashers do exist (or did exist?) that actually ... wash dishes?? And don't take 4 hours to do it??
Dish washers clean dishes. If they aren't doing so for you, you're doing something wrong. I have never rinsed dishes. The only time something comes out dirty is if it's an oven pan that has something fiercly burned to it, or a pot of milk or something that I burned.
I think some dishwashers are somehow worse performers than others. In the flat I was in before, the landlord installed Ikea dishwasher was terrible (I don't know who was the actual manufacturer). If I'd put a butter knife in there that still had traces of butter going in, they would still be there coming out. Somehow, this even happened when using the 70 ºC program. I even tried using the most expensive pods, for the same result.
In the new flat, equipped with some mid-range Siemens, I don't have this problem anymore. I use the exact same pods, same butter, and same knives. Hell, even the "quick 1h 45º" program gets rid of pretty much everything, even using the cheapest pods.
In the new flat, equipped with some mid-range Siemens, I don't have this problem anymore. I use the exact same pods, same butter, and same knives. Hell, even the "quick 1h 45º" program gets rid of pretty much everything, even using the cheapest pods.
Are you mis-loading them? Unusually hard water? Wrong detergent?
Every surface you want washed needs line-of-sight to a sprayer, so it's quite possible to load a dishwasher in a way that doesn't work properly.
Certain things are particularly sticky. People used to make glue out of fish for a reason; the one thing I will pre-wash off plates is fish skin.
Every surface you want washed needs line-of-sight to a sprayer, so it's quite possible to load a dishwasher in a way that doesn't work properly.
Certain things are particularly sticky. People used to make glue out of fish for a reason; the one thing I will pre-wash off plates is fish skin.
What are you talking about? This is either a US thing as usual or you are being duped.
I've always thought clothes washers washed clothes but dishwashers don't actually wash dishes and everybody knows it. I thought it was just a universally shared joke that everybody was in on, like "Grape Nuts contain neither grapes not nuts, and dishwashers don't actually wash dishes because of course they don't."
Only now I'm beginning to think I've been out of the loop.
Only now I'm beginning to think I've been out of the loop.
Yeah, you have definitely been out of the loop. I’ve used at least 5 different dishwashers in the past 20 years, and never had a problem with them actually washing dishes after just scraping off the food. Once in a while I’ll have an issue with something stuck on a utensil that was nested with another in the silverware bin, but that’s a loading problem not a dishwasher defect.
I think you've been very unlucky with dishwashers.
Using modern, mid-range dishwashers, I barely need to touch them before loading them. It was hard to break the habit of pre-washing, but that uses up a lot more water than the dishwasher itself (and energy, if you use hot water).
When I did clean them before washing them, so to speak, the short wash cycle would be enough. (Now I use the sensor cycle.)
When I did clean them before washing them, so to speak, the short wash cycle would be enough. (Now I use the sensor cycle.)
I've never done more than scrape the large bits of food off my dishes. My current dishwasher is probably 10 years old.
What you're describing just isn't normal. There are some possible explanations. You might have really hard water. You might not be using high-quality, enzymatic dishwaster detergent. It's also possible that there's something wrong with every dishwasher you've owned, I guess.
Our dishwasher washes dishes just fine, and it's just a small crappy countertop model
Sounds like you are choosing appalling dishwashers. I don't even rinse my plates and they coe out absolutely fine. If they don't I know the filter needs cleaning or the machine needs servicing.
Having used dishwashers on three different continents (US, Europe, Asia), I can attest that they definitely do wash dishes. The only caveat I would add is that when my mid-1990s vintage US dishwasher broke, the modern replacement seemed to be far worse. The cycles took longer and dishes came out dirtier. I always suspected it was some energy efficiency mandate that ruined the dishwasher experience in the US as I have had no such issues in Europe or Asia. Maybe I'll try different detergents next time I'm back in the US...
> I always suspected it was some energy efficiency mandate that ruined the dishwasher experience in the US
The three biggest changes I've experienced:
1. Water usage has gone WAY down, especially for energy star washers. You may see 2.5 gallon pre-rinse/wash, 1 gallon rinse cycle usage now. Heavily soiled dishes are relying on the filtration system to remove the particles rather than spraying gunk back on the dishes.
2. Post-rinse drying cycles use hot water and evaporation/condensation (via stainless steel tubs) rather than hot air. For ceramic/glass this is perfect, but plasticware will not get properly dried.
3. Pre-wash detergent cycles have started to go away. I suspect this is because the additional agents in pods have made the pre-wash cycle less effective. However, this means there may be even less time before the main wash cycle for water to heat - it is hard to tell if there is a rule whether to delay washing until it has water to temperature if the source water was cold.
The three biggest changes I've experienced:
1. Water usage has gone WAY down, especially for energy star washers. You may see 2.5 gallon pre-rinse/wash, 1 gallon rinse cycle usage now. Heavily soiled dishes are relying on the filtration system to remove the particles rather than spraying gunk back on the dishes.
2. Post-rinse drying cycles use hot water and evaporation/condensation (via stainless steel tubs) rather than hot air. For ceramic/glass this is perfect, but plasticware will not get properly dried.
3. Pre-wash detergent cycles have started to go away. I suspect this is because the additional agents in pods have made the pre-wash cycle less effective. However, this means there may be even less time before the main wash cycle for water to heat - it is hard to tell if there is a rule whether to delay washing until it has water to temperature if the source water was cold.
Energy is a factor for sure ( most of the article goes into why), and also environmental.
Dishwashers (and clothes washing machines) used to use phosphates, but those detergents have been banned for residential use at least in the US.
Dishwashers (and clothes washing machines) used to use phosphates, but those detergents have been banned for residential use at least in the US.
I will routinely make pancakes, have a glass measuring bowl with pancake batter still in it, throw it in the dishwasher, and it comes out clean.
Did you test the recommendations?
I’m able to put dirty dishes in mine and have them come out clean.
I’m able to put dirty dishes in mine and have them come out clean.
There's industrial dishwashers used in kitchens that do it in minutes!
I still use the pods in the main dispenser, for convenience, but after watching the TC video, I started dumping a spoonful of loose Oxyclean into the washer before closing the door. That also provides detergent during both cycles, and the difference in cleanliness is night and day.
is oxyclean alright for your dishes / dishwasher?
It's fairly hard to find a cleaning product that's not okay for dishes. Glass is very unreactive and quite hard.
Dishwasher maybe less so, but they're usually pretty sturdy too.
Dishwasher maybe less so, but they're usually pretty sturdy too.
I'm unclear on the answer -- are you saying it's a product that is probably fine then? And for human consumption if theres residue?
I would strongly suspect it's not going to hurt anything. If your dishwasher is leaving residue of cleaners, that's another story, that needs to be fixed whatever you're using.
Does anyone turn the powder into tablets at home? I want to do this because I like the convenience of just grabbing a thing out of a bucket rather than dealing with loose powder. Do you do a mechanical press, or make a slurry in an ice cube tray and wait for the water to evaporate, or some other thing?
Either one sounds like more effort than just pouring the powder into the detergent compartment.
I can understand the convenience factor of pre formed pods, but if I have to spend 15 minutes a week making my own pods from powdered detergent, it seems like I’d be better off just using the powder as intended.
I can understand the convenience factor of pre formed pods, but if I have to spend 15 minutes a week making my own pods from powdered detergent, it seems like I’d be better off just using the powder as intended.
The convenience for me would be in time shifting the labor. Sometimes (read: often) I want to sit and zone out for 15 minutes, but I almost never want to deal with transferring a powdered substance from one container to another, especially not after the rigamarole of loading the dishwasher. In theory the powder could go in first, or at some other time, but my brain just isn't like that.
I poured mine in an old plastic soda bottle which makes pouring into the compartment very quick and convenient
Pods aren't just "effectively identical to the powder detergent" they contain the rinse agent in the pod.
Using just detergent without rinse agent has always had poor results, and it's frustrating running out of rinse agent. Pods don't really cost that much more unless you're buying the ultra family size from Costco.
Using just detergent without rinse agent has always had poor results, and it's frustrating running out of rinse agent. Pods don't really cost that much more unless you're buying the ultra family size from Costco.
I use powder in both trays, pre-heat the water, clean my filters, and run citric acid regularly. I still had issues when I lived in a place with hard water. I still sometimes get an occasional garbage smelling result now that I don't.
No amount of "aww shucks" and tier 1 support level of suggestion changes or downplays my observations.
No amount of "aww shucks" and tier 1 support level of suggestion changes or downplays my observations.
I have found that the bad smell is usually a result of water sitting in the bottom of the dishwasher. and I think it may be due to water dripping off all the dishes after it has finished draining. I try to remember to push the drain button a few times a few hours after a cycle has completed to get all the water out of the bottom.
The pods are not the same, in a modern detergent formulation there are some chemicals that can only exist in liquid form and others in powder form. You can get hybrid pods.
( Myself I prefer Whole Foods 365 brand pods because they have all the detergent + enzymes but none of the ethoxylated alcohols or the worst chemicals)
( Myself I prefer Whole Foods 365 brand pods because they have all the detergent + enzymes but none of the ethoxylated alcohols or the worst chemicals)
Where I live you cannot get powder dishwashing agents in super markets and Amazon suggest weird imports at 10 times the premium.
I smash between a quarter and half the pod for prewash and the rest in the compartment following that technology connection video where he talks about the problem.
I find little life of quality change.
I smash between a quarter and half the pod for prewash and the rest in the compartment following that technology connection video where he talks about the problem.
I find little life of quality change.
In my experience it is not the amount but the composition of the pod/tablets that makes a huge difference. My machine (Miele) on the same cycle program has excellent results with Dreft pods, Ok'ish with Sun tablets and very poor with Finish.
[deleted]
I've heard that adding a teaspoon of TSP can be helpful because a lot of the dishwashing detergents are now phosphate free.
N.b.
TSP == Trisodium phosphate. Available at many stores.
TSP == Trisodium phosphate. Available at many stores.
If your water is hard, this will prevent water spots or scale from forming.
Do not use TSP! Use sodiumtrippolyphosphate, aka STP, STPP. TSP is as caustic as lye. You can find STP on Amazon.
Mix 30% STPP with powder for hard water. 10% for soft water.
Mix 30% STPP with powder for hard water. 10% for soft water.
Isn’t the problem that they regulated the phosphates out of the powder detergent, so it stopped working too?!
Good advice! What are they thinking when they get rid of the pre wash cup?
The article is IMO quite unclear. I tried to understand what's actually going on. From the actual rule in the Federal Register (https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/10/30/2020-23...):
> Moreover, the current standard requires standard residential dishwashers to not exceed 307 kWh/year and 5.0 gallons per cycle for the “Normal” cycle. 10 CFR 430.32(f)(1)(i). Consistent with the results of the Department's evaluation of dishwashers offering a 60 to 90 minute “Quick” cycle, DOE's has identified an innovative opportunity for the further development of a dishwasher model offering a “Normal” cycle of one hour or less.
I think the issue is that manufacturers struggle to get good cleaning performance subject to the 307 kWh/year, 5 gallon per cycle rule unless the cycle is very slow, and the DOE has indicated that it will allow more water and/or more energy usage for faster dishwashers.
(Speaking of water usage, I find it odd that dishwashers don't seem to do a final spray with fresh (non-recirculated) water. I would gladly use an extra 1/4 - 1/2 gallon per load to get a freshwater rinse at the end.
P.S. What's up with kWh/year anyway? Surely it should be kWh per cycle with an added restriction on additional power used when not running.
> Moreover, the current standard requires standard residential dishwashers to not exceed 307 kWh/year and 5.0 gallons per cycle for the “Normal” cycle. 10 CFR 430.32(f)(1)(i). Consistent with the results of the Department's evaluation of dishwashers offering a 60 to 90 minute “Quick” cycle, DOE's has identified an innovative opportunity for the further development of a dishwasher model offering a “Normal” cycle of one hour or less.
I think the issue is that manufacturers struggle to get good cleaning performance subject to the 307 kWh/year, 5 gallon per cycle rule unless the cycle is very slow, and the DOE has indicated that it will allow more water and/or more energy usage for faster dishwashers.
(Speaking of water usage, I find it odd that dishwashers don't seem to do a final spray with fresh (non-recirculated) water. I would gladly use an extra 1/4 - 1/2 gallon per load to get a freshwater rinse at the end.
P.S. What's up with kWh/year anyway? Surely it should be kWh per cycle with an added restriction on additional power used when not running.
I had an old Bosch dishwasher with a pre-heater and a macerator. It heated the water hotter than modern ones. What I noticed was there was no need to prewash dishes. Slob roommate left spaghetti sauce in a pan all week while you were gone. Dishwater would strip that right off.
If you compare the energy efficiency of my old one with a new ones where you have to pre-wash your dishes with warm water the old Bosch wins both in energy and water use.
If you compare the energy efficiency of my old one with a new ones where you have to pre-wash your dishes with warm water the old Bosch wins both in energy and water use.
My parents have an older Bosch from before the present regulatory lack of efficiency by design. It's amazing how well it performs. It's been repaired a few times and hopefully they can still keep getting replacement parts for it for a long time.
We had a Bosch eco-friendly dishwasher for a while. It was absolutely useless. We had to run all the plates through two cycles to get them clean.
I now tend to avoid anything labelled as "eco" as it invariably means "worse".
I now tend to avoid anything labelled as "eco" as it invariably means "worse".
Try a commercial dishwasher if you get the chance, they heat the water to near-boiling and will clean a load of dishes in about 60 seconds.
Not exactly friendly for your electric bill though.
Not exactly friendly for your electric bill though.
Commercial dishwashers are only sterilizers. They don't do the cleaning that a residential dishwasher does. They expect as input dishes that are visually "clean", having been scraped and sprayed by hand before going in. The 60 second cycle just cuts remaining grease then kills all the germs with harsh chemicals and then rinses.
If you think residential dishwashers are bad at getting plates clean of dried-on gunk, commercial dishwashers are 100x worse, as that's not their job. The pre-washing everyone gripes about shitty residential dishwashers now requiring is an expected and designed-for staple in a commercial dishwashing process.
If you think residential dishwashers are bad at getting plates clean of dried-on gunk, commercial dishwashers are 100x worse, as that's not their job. The pre-washing everyone gripes about shitty residential dishwashers now requiring is an expected and designed-for staple in a commercial dishwashing process.
> Commercial dishwashers are only sterilizers. They don't do the cleaning that a residential dishwasher does.
I “learned” this in college, too. And then I did a bit more research and discovered that the dishwasher was very much capable of cleaning, but only if it had appropriate detergent or cleaning solution. But commercial dishwasher cleaning solution is nasty and highly basic, so apparently whoever was in charged decided students shouldn’t have access to cleaning solution. So we only had sanitizer, and the dishwasher only sanitized.
After a discussion with the facilities department, I got cleaning solution and its feed line, and the dishwasher magically started washing dishes!
One should still spray the food off first, but commercial dishwashers wash just fine.
I “learned” this in college, too. And then I did a bit more research and discovered that the dishwasher was very much capable of cleaning, but only if it had appropriate detergent or cleaning solution. But commercial dishwasher cleaning solution is nasty and highly basic, so apparently whoever was in charged decided students shouldn’t have access to cleaning solution. So we only had sanitizer, and the dishwasher only sanitized.
After a discussion with the facilities department, I got cleaning solution and its feed line, and the dishwasher magically started washing dishes!
One should still spray the food off first, but commercial dishwashers wash just fine.
I worked in a commercial kitchen that had all 3 (wash, sterilize, rinse) of the fluids properly stocked. (In fact, they didn't own the dishwasher or fluids, but subscribed to a machine rental, maintenance, and refill contract, which was just "x loads for y dollars per month, rain or shine", to make costs predictable for the low margin small restaurant.)
You still need to thoroughly clean the dishes before they go in, otherwise in 1-2 loads the filters are completely clogged. They are absolutely not designed for dishes to go in that have any residual food on them.
In a residential setting if you're going to clean the dishes to that extent, you should just finish washing them, as it's basically the same amount of time for a household's amount of dishes. The only time a commercial dishwasher makes sense is if you need to do dozens of plates and cups and kilograms of silverware.
Commercial dishwashers are a bad choice for residential use.
You still need to thoroughly clean the dishes before they go in, otherwise in 1-2 loads the filters are completely clogged. They are absolutely not designed for dishes to go in that have any residual food on them.
In a residential setting if you're going to clean the dishes to that extent, you should just finish washing them, as it's basically the same amount of time for a household's amount of dishes. The only time a commercial dishwasher makes sense is if you need to do dozens of plates and cups and kilograms of silverware.
Commercial dishwashers are a bad choice for residential use.
Yeah, you need to pair it with a person who’s entire job is to spray and scrub the dishes before loading them.
That said the high pressure sprayer before the dishwasher is enough to get almost everything off dishes except hardened melted cheese. If it didn’t spray everywhere I’d want one for my house.
That said the high pressure sprayer before the dishwasher is enough to get almost everything off dishes except hardened melted cheese. If it didn’t spray everywhere I’d want one for my house.
> The 60 second cycle just cuts remaining grease then kills all the germs with harsh chemicals and then rinses.
Are you sure they actually use harsh chemicals? I thought it's mostly about the extra heatL
Are you sure they actually use harsh chemicals? I thought it's mostly about the extra heatL
There are low temperature dishwashers that sanitize with a sanitizing solution (generally chlorine based) and high temperature dishwashers that sanitize with heat.
If I ran a restaurant, I would go with high temp to avoid residual chlorine taste. And I would skip the rinse aid, thank you very much.
If I ran a restaurant, I would go with high temp to avoid residual chlorine taste. And I would skip the rinse aid, thank you very much.
If your water is hard, rinse aid helps a lot to make the glasses and dishes look good. For someone running a restaurant, that might be useful.
> If your water is hard, rinse aid helps a lot to make the glasses and dishes look good.
Or if you want a decent job, install a reverse-osmosis water filtration system in the central water piping that takes out all the nasty mineral salts responsible for the hardness and limescale. Also makes cleaning way easier.
Or if you want a decent job, install a reverse-osmosis water filtration system in the central water piping that takes out all the nasty mineral salts responsible for the hardness and limescale. Also makes cleaning way easier.
It would be nifty IMO if dishwashers had two water feed lines, one for wash and one for rinse. Then plain water could be used for washing and expensive softened or other low-TDS water could be used for rising.
Or bonus points for a dishwasher that uses RO concentrate/brine for washing.
Or bonus points for a dishwasher that uses RO concentrate/brine for washing.
Some people like the taste of hard water.
Famously the Romans liked to found cities where the water was hard. But the preference persists for some people today. (And the reverse osmosis thing is a big investment, and might not be feasible when renting.)
Famously the Romans liked to found cities where the water was hard. But the preference persists for some people today. (And the reverse osmosis thing is a big investment, and might not be feasible when renting.)
My recently purchased residential dishwasher actually says in the manual that you can use a 10% citric acid solution as rinse aid. Bought a 5kg bucket at the weekend and made some up - works a treat.
Also not friendly for your delicate dishes.
The rinse aid might not be the best for you either.
And the irony is that hand prewashing eats away all your savings of water and energy. Hand washing is tremendously wasteful relative to dish washers.
Might be a Bosch thing? I have a fairly new one (7 years old now) and it's fantastic about not needing a pre-wash for everything except egg yolk and oatmeal. Those two are evil.
The cycle is very long, though. Mostly I don't mind, as I tend to run it overnight.
The cycle is very long, though. Mostly I don't mind, as I tend to run it overnight.
Did you use to prewash dishes by hand?
> P.S. What's up with kWh/year anyway?
I think that now DOE appliance standards, for all appliances, are now in annual consumption terms. They used to use different terms for different appliances that could convert to annual consumption (e.g., for dishwashers, it was "Energy Factor", which was cycles per kWh.)
> Surely it should be kWh per cycle with an added restriction on additional power used when not running.
That would be strictly more complicated, though I don't think passive draw is a big things for dishwashers.
I think that now DOE appliance standards, for all appliances, are now in annual consumption terms. They used to use different terms for different appliances that could convert to annual consumption (e.g., for dishwashers, it was "Energy Factor", which was cycles per kWh.)
> Surely it should be kWh per cycle with an added restriction on additional power used when not running.
That would be strictly more complicated, though I don't think passive draw is a big things for dishwashers.
To add to that. kWh/year obviously defines an underlying assumption of the number of cycles. That definition just allows to also account for standby time. Hence it's a better overall number to target.
307kWh/a and 5 gallons are a lot. Nowadays there are dishwashers that use 2.2 gallons and 76kWh/a (assuming 0,46 cycles per kWh which I think is the DOE limit) and they clean a full load adequately.
Even the cheapest models should be able to meet the DOE limits and clean the dishes completely.
Even the cheapest models should be able to meet the DOE limits and clean the dishes completely.
Just bought a new European made dishwasher which cleans perfectly at 0.55kWh / 2.2 US gallons per “Eco” cycle. But it takes 4 hours.
The quick 65C cycle takes an hour but uses 1.1kWh and 10 US gallons.
The quick 65C cycle takes an hour but uses 1.1kWh and 10 US gallons.
Yes, the Eco cycle often takes a very long time. However, modern machines are significantly better than the DOE limits even on a one-hour cycle (I assume your machine uses 10 litres, not gallons).
kWh/year is always inane regardless. That's what kW are for
Only if you run your dishwasher continuously.
I wonder if the kWh/year factors in some information about the size of a typical load.
People sometimes prefer more convenient units.
You probably measure your temperature in something like Kelvin (or Celsius or Fahrenheit), too? Instead of taking the ideal gas law pV = nkT serious and measuring temperature in units that are implied by T = p V / n * k, ie energy per degree of freedom.
You probably measure your temperature in something like Kelvin (or Celsius or Fahrenheit), too? Instead of taking the ideal gas law pV = nkT serious and measuring temperature in units that are implied by T = p V / n * k, ie energy per degree of freedom.
307 KWh/cycle would be over $30 in electricity costs, per cycle...
Obviously GP means the units should be converted to whatever they actually want usage/cycle to be.
No, it's not obvious at all as various models can have different numbers of modes, so even averaging them out for a usage/cycle average number wouldn't yield any meaningful info.
e.g. A fancier model with several 'Eco' cycles and only one higher power mode will appear better than simpler models with fewer modes, even though the simpler model might actually use less energy.
In fact it would be very counter-intuitive and highly misleading.
e.g. A fancier model with several 'Eco' cycles and only one higher power mode will appear better than simpler models with fewer modes, even though the simpler model might actually use less energy.
In fact it would be very counter-intuitive and highly misleading.
I don’t understand how this is a problem that I don’t have.
I bought a new dishwasher like 2 months ago and it’s the best I’ve ever had. The eco mode works great. A few times I’ve had very greasy pans so I switched to the 60°C mode instead and it’s great. My dishes are very clean.
Do y’all use the correct amount of detergent? Regenerating salts, with the correct setting ? Rinsing fluid? Do you correctly put the detergent in the trap and not directly in the dishwasher? (I’ve seen tons of people do that, of course it doesn’t work, all the detergent is used in the prewash) Do you organize it correctly?
If so there’s no reason for a dishwasher to not do it’s job.
I bought a new dishwasher like 2 months ago and it’s the best I’ve ever had. The eco mode works great. A few times I’ve had very greasy pans so I switched to the 60°C mode instead and it’s great. My dishes are very clean.
Do y’all use the correct amount of detergent? Regenerating salts, with the correct setting ? Rinsing fluid? Do you correctly put the detergent in the trap and not directly in the dishwasher? (I’ve seen tons of people do that, of course it doesn’t work, all the detergent is used in the prewash) Do you organize it correctly?
If so there’s no reason for a dishwasher to not do it’s job.
The topic of dishwashers comes up regularly on HN and it's always the same, comments are mostly filled by people complaining about dishwashers not working well, environmental regulation, etc.
I assume most people who don't actually have a problem just don't comment.
Anyway, for another datapoint I have a rather recent dishwasher (in the EU) and it works about as well as the older dishwasher I had before, or the one my parents had 20 years ago. It does take 4 hours to run a load, which is fine, I've always run my dishwashers at night so I'm not even sure how long it took the others.
So I don't think they're getting worse. But as a sibling comment said, I wish the buttons were more responsive, not sure why it takes about two seconds for the thing to wake up after pressing the power button.
I assume most people who don't actually have a problem just don't comment.
Anyway, for another datapoint I have a rather recent dishwasher (in the EU) and it works about as well as the older dishwasher I had before, or the one my parents had 20 years ago. It does take 4 hours to run a load, which is fine, I've always run my dishwashers at night so I'm not even sure how long it took the others.
So I don't think they're getting worse. But as a sibling comment said, I wish the buttons were more responsive, not sure why it takes about two seconds for the thing to wake up after pressing the power button.
4 hours is not fine in a lot of circumstances.
How so?
If you run it at night, not an issue.
If you run it after lunch, not an issue, everything is available before it’s time to prepare dinner.
If you’re organized I don’t see how 4 hours is a problem, unless you cook every 3 hours?
And if you need things right away, even a 1hour dishwasher would be too long, if your issue is time just hand wash your dishes.
If you run it at night, not an issue.
If you run it after lunch, not an issue, everything is available before it’s time to prepare dinner.
If you’re organized I don’t see how 4 hours is a problem, unless you cook every 3 hours?
And if you need things right away, even a 1hour dishwasher would be too long, if your issue is time just hand wash your dishes.
If you run it after breakfast dishes aren't available at all before lunch.
If you run it after dinner, dishes can't be finished (put away) until the next morning unless you want to stay up late.
If you run it after dinner, dishes can't be finished (put away) until the next morning unless you want to stay up late.
> dishes can't be finished (put away) until the next morning
Nothing wrong with that.
> If you run it after breakfast dishes aren't available at all before lunch.
If you run your dishwasher at night, there's no reason to run it with just the breakfast dishes inside, it's a waste of water and energy.
But still, you can use the fast mode (30min/1hour). And if there's something specific you need (a pan?) just open the dishwasher and hand wash it. Or buy one more.
It doesn't require big organization skills to work around the fact an eco cycle is 4 hours honestly.
Nothing wrong with that.
> If you run it after breakfast dishes aren't available at all before lunch.
If you run your dishwasher at night, there's no reason to run it with just the breakfast dishes inside, it's a waste of water and energy.
But still, you can use the fast mode (30min/1hour). And if there's something specific you need (a pan?) just open the dishwasher and hand wash it. Or buy one more.
It doesn't require big organization skills to work around the fact an eco cycle is 4 hours honestly.
> Nothing wrong with that.
Nothing wrong with that for YOU.
Please do not expect everyone to conform to your personal circumstances.
Nothing wrong with that for YOU.
Please do not expect everyone to conform to your personal circumstances.
The fast program takes 30 minutes and works fine, I've used it once or twice maybe in the last four years.
I live in the UK, so our appliance standards are different. However, I just looked at my current dishwasher - it uses 0.85 kWh/cycle and 11.5L per cycle. I think the assumption in the US is 215 cycles a year - so that means 183 kWh/year and 3 gallons / cycle. That seems to be less than this limit.
And, it's totally fine? It cleans dishes. It takes a few hours - but then it's pretty rare I need all my dishes immediately anyway. I've got enough so even if it's full there's a glass or a plate available. I use the all in one tablets - it has a special tablet mode that opens the door pretty much immediately. I never pre-rinse plates. I think I clean the filters every 3-6 months under the kitchen tap. Takes about 2 minutes.
This article seems to be conservatism (in the sense of "change is bad") for the sake of it.
And, it's totally fine? It cleans dishes. It takes a few hours - but then it's pretty rare I need all my dishes immediately anyway. I've got enough so even if it's full there's a glass or a plate available. I use the all in one tablets - it has a special tablet mode that opens the door pretty much immediately. I never pre-rinse plates. I think I clean the filters every 3-6 months under the kitchen tap. Takes about 2 minutes.
This article seems to be conservatism (in the sense of "change is bad") for the sake of it.
>I bought a new dishwasher like 2 months ago and it’s the best I’ve ever had.
I bought a new one just this year. And yes, it does do a pretty good job.
But if you read the article, one of the complaints is that it takes a lot longer, and that is true for me as well. Way back in the 90s, I had a new dishwasher that was really cheap, and pretty noisy, but it would do a load of dishes in about an hour. My new one is 2+ hours.
Keeping the dishwasher quiet, which is a consumer demand, not a regulatory demand, affects your wash time. If you don't care about the noise, you can have a more powerful pump spraying a harder stream of water, and as a bonus, less sound-deadening insulation means you can cram more dishes in there.
I bought a new one just this year. And yes, it does do a pretty good job.
But if you read the article, one of the complaints is that it takes a lot longer, and that is true for me as well. Way back in the 90s, I had a new dishwasher that was really cheap, and pretty noisy, but it would do a load of dishes in about an hour. My new one is 2+ hours.
Keeping the dishwasher quiet, which is a consumer demand, not a regulatory demand, affects your wash time. If you don't care about the noise, you can have a more powerful pump spraying a harder stream of water, and as a bonus, less sound-deadening insulation means you can cram more dishes in there.
My dishwasher takes 4 hours in eco mode but I don’t see how that’s a problem? I either run it at night when it has plenty of time to run, or right after lunch so that the dishes are clean when it’s time to prepare dinner.
I feel like if you need them quickly, 1 hour would be too long anyway, no?
I feel like if you need them quickly, 1 hour would be too long anyway, no?
If you've got a big family and cook a lot, you might run the dishwasher a couple of times a day. Not everybody's use case is the same.
But would you accept 100% slower, or 400% slower in your case, if it was your computer?
But would you accept 100% slower, or 400% slower in your case, if it was your computer?
Think it's more to do with efficiency / eco reasons that it takes 4 hours. It soaks the dishes then turns off and waits, and does this multiple times. This minimizes the actual amount of work needed.
It's not spraying continuously like an older dishwasher might.
It's not spraying continuously like an older dishwasher might.
I felt the same reading this. I'm in the EU and have a very middle of the road Bosch dishwasher. I run it on the Eco program at night (when I pay a lower energy price) with a 3-in-1 tab in it. I start it around 23:00, sometime during the night it finishes, in the morning I have clean dishes...
The whole temperature thing doesn't make much sense to me either. Mostly dishwashers are designed to run at 30, 40 or 60C, depending on what you clean.
If they wanted to make great dishwashers, the cleaning isn't the problem, it's the stupid mushy buttons. Give me actual good buttons.
If they wanted to make great dishwashers, the cleaning isn't the problem, it's the stupid mushy buttons. Give me actual good buttons.
The article is from 2020, maybe the regulation has come into effect.
same here. i'd assume it boils down to common sense which some folks are blessed with while others lake in this department. if you place your stuff keeping in mind where the water comes from, don't wait with washing until food is surface dried and remove excessive grease and fat before hand then results should be fine. also there is a place to put salt and rinse aid for a reason if it isn't provided by the tab.
Where can I get black market dishwashers that use three times as much energy and water for my new build?
I've already manually removed all of the flow reducer bottlenecks in my showerheads.
If you want me to use less water or power, tax it more, don't render my appliances nonfunctional. Alternately, heavily tax the inefficient machines so they aren't cost effective for normal consumers/builders.
I really hate how poorly modern appliances work.
I've already manually removed all of the flow reducer bottlenecks in my showerheads.
If you want me to use less water or power, tax it more, don't render my appliances nonfunctional. Alternately, heavily tax the inefficient machines so they aren't cost effective for normal consumers/builders.
I really hate how poorly modern appliances work.
Just buy a Miele dishwasher. They actually work and they work well. No need to bother with black-market or "vintage" or commercial stuff. Just pay the high price (ok, it's all relative) and enjoy never having to care about this crap again.
Source: owned too many dishwashers over the last decade. Paid money to make problem go away and to my surprise it actually did.
Source: owned too many dishwashers over the last decade. Paid money to make problem go away and to my surprise it actually did.
We have a Miele dishwasher (and washing machine).
It works really well, but it's not magic.
Eg it still benefits from adding a bit of powder in the special compartment that opens immediately (or alternatively, directly in the body of the dishwasher).
You also have to clean the Miele's dirt trap every once in a while. I'm informed American dishwashers have different arrangements that don't need cleaning?
It works really well, but it's not magic.
Eg it still benefits from adding a bit of powder in the special compartment that opens immediately (or alternatively, directly in the body of the dishwasher).
You also have to clean the Miele's dirt trap every once in a while. I'm informed American dishwashers have different arrangements that don't need cleaning?
It has a filter with a spinning blade slightly in front of it - a macerator - that chops up pieces of food until they are small enough to fit through the holes.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Appliantology/Kitchenaid-Dishwash...
https://photos.smugmug.com/Appliantology/Kitchenaid-Dishwash...
In the US, the dishwasher discharge hose is often piped into the garbage disposal unit under the sink.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_disposal_unit
Looks like those units are really uncommon in Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_disposal_unit
Looks like those units are really uncommon in Europe.
These are actually banned in most countries of Europe by laws and regulations because fatty foods lead to the buildup of fatbergs in pipes and anything that's not water and feces is prime rat food.
I don't get why the USA don't ban these, but then complain about rat infestations at the same time. JFC.
I don't get why the USA don't ban these, but then complain about rat infestations at the same time. JFC.
There aren't huge rat problems in the US, and having to clean out the sink drain filter multiple times per day is a disgusting waste of time.
I split my time between Germany and the US and the lack of a garbage disposal in the kitchen sink is a constant annoyance. (It's nothing to do with fatty foods; the reasoning provided seems like a red herring.)
I split my time between Germany and the US and the lack of a garbage disposal in the kitchen sink is a constant annoyance. (It's nothing to do with fatty foods; the reasoning provided seems like a red herring.)
> There aren't huge rat problems in the US
New York's rat problem is world-(in)famous, as is San Francisco's.
> and having to clean out the sink drain filter multiple times per day is a disgusting waste of time.
Yeah, if you're peeling onions and potatoes over the sink instead of a bio-waste container. Do it like Germans do (in fact, if you look up your community's Abfallsatzung you may be required to) and you won't need to clean that thing more often than once every few months.
New York's rat problem is world-(in)famous, as is San Francisco's.
> and having to clean out the sink drain filter multiple times per day is a disgusting waste of time.
Yeah, if you're peeling onions and potatoes over the sink instead of a bio-waste container. Do it like Germans do (in fact, if you look up your community's Abfallsatzung you may be required to) and you won't need to clean that thing more often than once every few months.
The hundreds of millions of homes in the US not in NYC and SF also ~all have garbage disposals and no major rat problems. (NYC banned garbage disposals until the '90s when it was lifted, and its rat population predates that by over a century.).
I don't ever peel anything over the sink, it's just the small particles of stuff from washing that fills up the filter. This isn't a "you're holding it wrong".
I get the impression it's a similar objection to air conditioning: it's regarded as foreign, atypical, and unnecessary luxury, so plausible justifications about why it's bad are trotted out.
One of my favorite parts of visiting asia is discovering what fun new things have been electrified and automated. It seems europeans tend to have the opposite culture, and regard using electricity as vaguely sinful.
I don't ever peel anything over the sink, it's just the small particles of stuff from washing that fills up the filter. This isn't a "you're holding it wrong".
I get the impression it's a similar objection to air conditioning: it's regarded as foreign, atypical, and unnecessary luxury, so plausible justifications about why it's bad are trotted out.
One of my favorite parts of visiting asia is discovering what fun new things have been electrified and automated. It seems europeans tend to have the opposite culture, and regard using electricity as vaguely sinful.
> I don't ever peel anything over the sink, it's just the small particles of stuff from washing that fills up the filter.
That's still weird. Standard German kitchen sinks have a very coarse filter [1], it's almost impossible to clog these up with anything but potato and onion peel segments.
[1] https://www.obi.de/edelstahlspuelen/pyramis-einbauspuele-ca-...
That's still weird. Standard German kitchen sinks have a very coarse filter [1], it's almost impossible to clog these up with anything but potato and onion peel segments.
[1] https://www.obi.de/edelstahlspuelen/pyramis-einbauspuele-ca-...
Here in Singapore those sink garbage macerator are not common, and I haven't seen them elsewhere in Asia so far.
(I'm considering whether it would make sense for us to install one.)
But in no country that I visited without those macerators do people clean their sinks multiple times a day. Are you sure you aren't 'holding it wrong'?
(I'm considering whether it would make sense for us to install one.)
But in no country that I visited without those macerators do people clean their sinks multiple times a day. Are you sure you aren't 'holding it wrong'?
In EU we typically have separate waste bin for food leftovers that I expect would go to this garbage disposal in kitchen sink. So if you put the food leftovers to separate garbage bin, there's pretty much nothing that will end up in drain filter to be cleared. It's just different routine.
I think you also misread the response about the fatty foods. I don't feel it was related to fatty food in USA, it was more in a sense that if you shred fat leftovers, it will eventually clog some pipe down the line.
I went jogging in Brooklyn (Williamsburg) and stepped on a huge rat. Poor dude was just having breakfast in one of the garbage heaps on the sidewalk. Never experienced that in Europe before.
In Utrecht The Netherlands it's common for bars and restaurants in the old town to have cats that stay with the location. Locations would change hands, and the cats stayed at that location.
I used to live there and the rodent problem is real. There was a great book about it a few years back where they wrote up a little piece on each cat at each location. And yes, I had a cat in my house because without a cat you get mice.
Paris is also notorious for its rat problem. To say that Europe doesn't have rats is just silly.
I used to live there and the rodent problem is real. There was a great book about it a few years back where they wrote up a little piece on each cat at each location. And yes, I had a cat in my house because without a cat you get mice.
Paris is also notorious for its rat problem. To say that Europe doesn't have rats is just silly.
> ... and having to clean out the sink drain filter multiple times per day is a disgusting waste of time.
What are you doing to your sink?
What are you doing to your sink?
Also uncommon in Asia and Australia.
Heh. When reading that Wikipedia article, they only referenced European (and UK) countries in their "Adoption and Bans" section. That kinda made me view the entire world as "The US or EU/UK", and—with that anchoring—I assumed you must live "in the other one".
So, yeah. I guess those things are a quirk of the US only.
So, yeah. I guess those things are a quirk of the US only.
Quite a lot of online commentary is framed as "US or EU", or sometimes "US, EU and Asia". There are tens of other countries out there with hundreds of millions of people.
I don't think Miele has any special loophole that will allow them to bypass the new 2023 energy/water requirements for dishwashers sold in the US.
Perhaps I will ship a German SKU Miele from Germany, and figure out how to get 230V/50Hz to it. I wonder which 60Hz market has the highest power/water limit Miele SKUs.
Perhaps I will ship a German SKU Miele from Germany, and figure out how to get 230V/50Hz to it. I wonder which 60Hz market has the highest power/water limit Miele SKUs.
No, but they are better designed in ways that allow them to clean well with lower power consumption. The tub is better insulated for example and they don’t waste energy on a heated dry cycle. That energy allowance can be better utilized in the main cleaning cycle.
We had drying issues with our Miele that was addressed by using the rinse agent. Now generally dry results.
Are there new 2023 requirements? In the past, the only thing that DOE requirements applied to was the "Normal" cycle. All others can use as much water as they want since DOE regs don't apply.
It should work fine at 240V, 60Hz without issues.
AC motors are famously sensitive to power frequency. It's not the same as resistive loads. I'll definitely do some research, however.
I imagine there are some Japanese ones from the 60Hz half of Japan (you read that right, yes) that might fit the bill, too.
I imagine there are some Japanese ones from the 60Hz half of Japan (you read that right, yes) that might fit the bill, too.
Second this. Just bought a Miele dishwasher in our renovation and it’s by far the best dishwasher we’ve owned. Well worth the extra $$$.
Also make sure you check the traps and clean the rotating heads - that was an issue with our older Bosch after a while.
Also make sure you check the traps and clean the rotating heads - that was an issue with our older Bosch after a while.
I have a Miele dishwasher and it does a great job of washing ceramic and glass dishes. But reusable plastic food containers (Gladware, etc.) always come out sopping wet and I have to hand-dry them.
The Miele is nice and quiet, but sometimes I miss my old loud energy-hogging dishwasher that had a real "dry" cycle with a fan.
The Miele is nice and quiet, but sometimes I miss my old loud energy-hogging dishwasher that had a real "dry" cycle with a fan.
> But reusable plastic food containers (Gladware, etc.) always come out sopping wet and I have to hand-dry them.
ime this is because plastics have lower thermal mass and hence cool out faster than the ceramic/glass/metal things. while the water evaporates from warm objects it then condenses at lower temperature surfaces.
ime this is because plastics have lower thermal mass and hence cool out faster than the ceramic/glass/metal things. while the water evaporates from warm objects it then condenses at lower temperature surfaces.
I have a Miele dishwasher in the US. It works great, but normal clean cycle is 2h37m :( it takes forever. Comes out clean though!
I run it on sanitize (baby bottles) with just pods (and rinse aid, it helps getting the water off/dry) and everything comes out squeaky clean. No matter the gunk on it.
Had a Bosch when I lived in Germany. 1h14min for a normal cycle, pods. Came out squeaky clean too. I miss that machine. The extra time the Miele in the US takes is really annoying
I run it on sanitize (baby bottles) with just pods (and rinse aid, it helps getting the water off/dry) and everything comes out squeaky clean. No matter the gunk on it.
Had a Bosch when I lived in Germany. 1h14min for a normal cycle, pods. Came out squeaky clean too. I miss that machine. The extra time the Miele in the US takes is really annoying
I’ve learned you don’t actually need to sanitize baby bottles in the dishwasher, you can just hand wash them normally, and you don’t get as many leaks. Also watch the rinse aid in a baby bottle - it can cause leaky gut: https://lastinghealth.com/news/rinse-aid-affects-immune-and-....
Modern Bosch machines these days all take ~3:30 by default on the eco mode, and ~2:45 on the normal/auto mode.
Modern Bosch machines also have a "fast" mode that is done in just 1h:9m. Of course it uses more water and energy, but I'm fine with that. Dishes come out squeaky clean and mostly dry.
I bought an AEG dishwasher two years ago specifically because it has a 1h "quick" and a 1h30m "normal" cycle (both extend by 15m if you enable the GlassCare option).
[deleted]
We need a new washing machine and top of the line Miele's program takes 3 hours. Ridiculous. I don't care about power or water, I want it fast.
On my Miele at least, there is a 65° power wash setting which takes less than one hour
We bought a Miele because I was sick and tired of replacing our machine every 3 years (or less in the case of the last one.)
The quality of the unit is substantially better than any other DW I've experienced. Jury is out on how long it's going to last, but by reputation, There's Miele, Bosch, and everybody else.
The quality of the unit is substantially better than any other DW I've experienced. Jury is out on how long it's going to last, but by reputation, There's Miele, Bosch, and everybody else.
When I had my bathroom redone, the contractor offered to set me up with an "illegal toilet" smuggled in from Mexico that uses more water per flush.
Why?
The US has had (roughly) four kinds of toilet:
1. The old 5 gallon per flush kind. Didn’t clog all that often. Flushed very very slowly. Contributed to downstream clogs because the outflow was insufficient to get the solids flowing well through the pipes.
2. The early lower-water-consuming kind. These were awful. Replace them if you have one!
3. Modern toilets. They use 1.28-0.8 gallons per flush, they rarely clog, and they don’t tend to clog the pipes downstream. They are generally quite good.
4. Flushometer toilets. They are often messy - they flush loudly and spray water around. Eww.
Why go backwards?
Modern toilets are tested for their ability to flush well:
https://map-testing.com/
The US has had (roughly) four kinds of toilet:
1. The old 5 gallon per flush kind. Didn’t clog all that often. Flushed very very slowly. Contributed to downstream clogs because the outflow was insufficient to get the solids flowing well through the pipes.
2. The early lower-water-consuming kind. These were awful. Replace them if you have one!
3. Modern toilets. They use 1.28-0.8 gallons per flush, they rarely clog, and they don’t tend to clog the pipes downstream. They are generally quite good.
4. Flushometer toilets. They are often messy - they flush loudly and spray water around. Eww.
Why go backwards?
Modern toilets are tested for their ability to flush well:
https://map-testing.com/
I can confirm this. My house had cheap low-flush toilets that were absolutely horrible. They clogged daily and were difficult to plunge and I began storing a bucket near every toilet so I could efficiently carry out the routine plunging sessions.
I was hesitant to buy new toilets because I figured they’re all low-flush, so what difference would it make? I found a top-reviewed model on Home Depot and it made a huge difference. Went from everyday clogs to a clog maybe once every few months. I replaced all my toilets and it’s the best home upgrade I ever did.
I was hesitant to buy new toilets because I figured they’re all low-flush, so what difference would it make? I found a top-reviewed model on Home Depot and it made a huge difference. Went from everyday clogs to a clog maybe once every few months. I replaced all my toilets and it’s the best home upgrade I ever did.
Oddly enough, dual flush toilets may have ended up leading to more water use at a macro level to the point that water companies are pushing to have them banned in the UK. They have a common fault which means they can continuously leak water without emptying the cistern (so the owner never notices).
Also I never know which button to press. Sometimes the big button is the one to press because UX people say it's the most visible, so that produces the smaller flush. If you want a bigger flush, use the smaller button. Sometimes (more logically) big button = big flush.
With a single control, it's more commonly hold for short flush, release for long flush, which is just madness.
With a single control, it's more commonly hold for short flush, release for long flush, which is just madness.
There's another style: Push the lever down for a standard large flush, pull it up for a small flush.
Better quality toilets from Toto and other well-regarded brands can do so much more, with so much less water.
You just need to be willing to spend the money on the better brand equipment.
You just need to be willing to spend the money on the better brand equipment.
It's a piece of ceramic, why do you need a better brand to work right?
With improved (and patented) design, they can flush much better. And they have better coatings on the ceramic, so that your "output" washes off much easier, and doesn't stick to the walls so easily.
The modern tests for toilets are much tougher than the old tests, and the best modern toilets will pass with flying colors on those tougher modern tests. Older toilets, and lesser quality toilets, can't hold a candle to the kind of performance you are able to get with the better and more modern toilets.
Toto is just one example. They're not the only one with top performing toilets. You can look on Consumer Reports to see the tests they run, and which toilets do well on those tests.
The modern tests for toilets are much tougher than the old tests, and the best modern toilets will pass with flying colors on those tougher modern tests. Older toilets, and lesser quality toilets, can't hold a candle to the kind of performance you are able to get with the better and more modern toilets.
Toto is just one example. They're not the only one with top performing toilets. You can look on Consumer Reports to see the tests they run, and which toilets do well on those tests.
You would think so, yet I notice big differences between toilets’ ability to flush well.
They make ones that "store" house tap pressure water and can flush with more force.
Yeah!
Have an acquaintance, whom I'll call "Big Shit", whose feces were so voluminous that they required custom (i.e., high-volume, larger diameter) toilets and enlarging the sewer line in the house.
Big Shit's oriental wife has broadcast his productivity to all of his friends, much to our amusement and disgust. Certain asians, unlike Americans, are not at all shy about discussing their (and their spouses') bathroom experiences in excruciating detail.
Have an acquaintance, whom I'll call "Big Shit", whose feces were so voluminous that they required custom (i.e., high-volume, larger diameter) toilets and enlarging the sewer line in the house.
Big Shit's oriental wife has broadcast his productivity to all of his friends, much to our amusement and disgust. Certain asians, unlike Americans, are not at all shy about discussing their (and their spouses') bathroom experiences in excruciating detail.
The high efficiency toilets use less water but higher pressure which means they still work quite well. Apparently they still make toilets which use the old design but still use less water. They have to be flushed a few times though. I assume they are significantly cheaper because why else would an ex-landlord have installed that in my apartment back when I was renting?
Commercial Units don't give a fuck about water and energy. They cost more but will last 20 years plus.
And some units will do the dishes in minutes :)
i believe those are sterlizers, not dishwashers. you need to do a thorough pre-wash before loading dishes into them. a domestic dishwasher is designed to be used by any idiot, and without following any real procedure.
they also release steam in quantities that will have negative effects in a kitchen that wasn't built to withstand that. commercial appliances are meant to be used in commercial kitchens with commercial ventilation.
they also release steam in quantities that will have negative effects in a kitchen that wasn't built to withstand that. commercial appliances are meant to be used in commercial kitchens with commercial ventilation.
Commercial dishwasher are meant to be used immediately after your meal. So nothing has time to really dry up and stick on.
Domestic dishwashers are designed to deal with plates sitting around for the few days it might take a small household to fill them up before running.
Domestic dishwashers are designed to deal with plates sitting around for the few days it might take a small household to fill them up before running.
Many old units required pre-wash, newer units now advertise that you can get rid of pre-wash, saving time and money.
I always wonder how much saving water and electricity washing dishes actually matters in relation to everything else we do. In the US people run their HVAC basically 24/7 either heating or cooling for a lot of the year. Our televisions, video game consoles, and computers are giant electric space heaters that run all day long. So what's the proportional burden of warming a few gallons of water? And I do mean warming, because people who wash dishes by hand don't make the water nearly as hot as what dishwashers use.
In regards to saving water, there can be huge benefits to doing so. I'm on the Utility Board overseeing the municipal utilities for my city (electricity, water, wastewater, trash). Our city is growing rapidly, and expanding a sewage system is extremely expensive. We're a city of ~60k and are spending ~$200mm to expand our wastewater treatment plants. And densification means current sewage lines can't support the buildings that need to be built.
More efficient appliances mean less water going through the sewer, and less wastewater that needs to be treated. Which means lower capital expenditures, which eventually come directly out of your pocket.
More efficient appliances mean less water going through the sewer, and less wastewater that needs to be treated. Which means lower capital expenditures, which eventually come directly out of your pocket.
It means something, but if a household uses 300 gallons in a day and 3 are going to the dishwasher, you can only improve that so much.
And if even a fraction of people feel the need to pre-rinse or post-rinse, those gains can disappear.
And if even a fraction of people feel the need to pre-rinse or post-rinse, those gains can disappear.
Side rant. Convenient how we've created a problem that requires huge infrastructure investment. This was a solved problem with septic tanks, that we could have spent many many multiples of money on improving and making ridiculously fancy with sensors and motors and and and. But alas, government is the Big Job Creator. Got to feed that beast.
I don't buy this cynical take. The current water treatment plants are much more complicated than a simple septic system which lack economies of scale and can still lead to ground water pollution.
Also, we've apparently transitioned from waste water being something that had to be dealt with to an actual asset. It can be cleaned to partial usage (and used for agriculture) or directed to help refill specific aquifers.
Also, we've apparently transitioned from waste water being something that had to be dealt with to an actual asset. It can be cleaned to partial usage (and used for agriculture) or directed to help refill specific aquifers.
Septic tanks are great for single family-dwellings, awful for dense apartment buildings, and scale from great -> awful very quickly in between.
IOW, wastewater infrastructure is necessary above a certain density.
The irony is that wastewater infrastructure is one of the areas where cities often defer maintenance, leading to sewage backups when it rains.
IOW, wastewater infrastructure is necessary above a certain density.
The irony is that wastewater infrastructure is one of the areas where cities often defer maintenance, leading to sewage backups when it rains.
US takes great pains to reduce power use, like the ones mentioned in the article but as you point out HVACs at offices work 24/7 at a very cold temperature, so much so that most people bring jackets to work. Cranking the cold up by 1-2F in hotels and offices will probably be imperceptible, yet may save a tremendous amount of energy.
> HVACs at offices work 24/7 at a very cold temperature, so much so that most people bring jackets to work.
You can always add clothes. If it’s too hot, there’s only so much you can remove. Particularly in a corporate setting
You can always add clothes. If it’s too hot, there’s only so much you can remove. Particularly in a corporate setting
Yep. Offices should basically be as cold as realistically feasible for the group working there, but no colder. Few things make me less productive than being in a hot environment: about 69F/20C is my ideal, and if it has to be either direction from there, it should be colder. Anything over about 74F interior temperature and my ability to do much critical thought is basically gone; I have no real heat tolerance but can deal with cold for ages.
This is a huge argument in favor of WFH: fewer/no arguments over office temps, a debate about as old as time itself, and particularly a place where it's going to be extremely difficult to get varied groups of folks to all be comfortable and agree (imagine someone super petite vs someone with a good bit of body mass, or someone who grew up in Norway vs someone from Singapore, or even just guys and gals who statistically tend to have different circulation, fat levels, etc. leading to different preferences in ambient temperature).
This is a huge argument in favor of WFH: fewer/no arguments over office temps, a debate about as old as time itself, and particularly a place where it's going to be extremely difficult to get varied groups of folks to all be comfortable and agree (imagine someone super petite vs someone with a good bit of body mass, or someone who grew up in Norway vs someone from Singapore, or even just guys and gals who statistically tend to have different circulation, fat levels, etc. leading to different preferences in ambient temperature).
Years ago I worked in a moderately large mostly open-office place. My room (with devs) housed 6. There were two open areas with around 80-100 people in open cubes, then... there was a small hallway closed off with 5 offices - the 'executive' hall.
One exec guy would turn the AC on high because there was little circulation over there. He liked it 'cool'. I was on the other side of the open area, in a small office. I'd come in in July, and the thermometer on my digital desk clock said 63f. I could not move my fingers to type efficiently because it was so cold. My fingers ached. I brought in a space heater and was chastised that I was "making a big deal out of nothing". 100+ people were consistently uncomfortable to make sure one person was comfortable. The energy waste had to have been enormous.
The days this guy was in it reminded me of working in foodservice, having to stock the walk-in cooler on delivery days. Yes, by afternoon, it was bearable, but 63f was just too cold to work effectively. Dozens of us were impacted, but the one top exec needed his comfort the 3 days a week he was in.
One exec guy would turn the AC on high because there was little circulation over there. He liked it 'cool'. I was on the other side of the open area, in a small office. I'd come in in July, and the thermometer on my digital desk clock said 63f. I could not move my fingers to type efficiently because it was so cold. My fingers ached. I brought in a space heater and was chastised that I was "making a big deal out of nothing". 100+ people were consistently uncomfortable to make sure one person was comfortable. The energy waste had to have been enormous.
The days this guy was in it reminded me of working in foodservice, having to stock the walk-in cooler on delivery days. Yes, by afternoon, it was bearable, but 63f was just too cold to work effectively. Dozens of us were impacted, but the one top exec needed his comfort the 3 days a week he was in.
I'd call that below "realistically feasible for the group" then, for sure. If you can't even move your fingers, that's a bit far down the "keep it cool" spectrum :)
> and the thermometer on my digital desk clock said 63f.
...
> The days this guy was in it reminded me of working in foodservice, having to stock the walk-in cooler on delivery days.
63F is not a walk-in cooler; 40F is a walk-in cooler.
Hyperbole like this is just rubbish.
...
> The days this guy was in it reminded me of working in foodservice, having to stock the walk-in cooler on delivery days.
63F is not a walk-in cooler; 40F is a walk-in cooler.
Hyperbole like this is just rubbish.
[deleted]
I'd even say 20C is warm for an office. I'd expect 19 or 18
... man, people need to toughen up. You can't think in 74 degrees? If it was 80, okay maybe I could sympathize. But 74 is colder than what I have mine set at home regularly.
74's a rough guesstimate (I don't sit here with a thermometer all day, after all). Some days my tolerance for thinkable heat is certainly higher. But in general, some folks just don't do warm rooms, and it is what it is.
Outdoors we at least have airflow to wick heat away. Indoors, it's just stale, warm air (there's other trains of thought that discuss the impact of CO2 in rooms on deep thought; I don't have any such studies handy to link at the moment but it does come to mind tangentially).
Outdoors we at least have airflow to wick heat away. Indoors, it's just stale, warm air (there's other trains of thought that discuss the impact of CO2 in rooms on deep thought; I don't have any such studies handy to link at the moment but it does come to mind tangentially).
> Outdoors we at least have airflow to wick heat away. Indoors, it's just stale, warm air
Our bodies generate a pocket of heat that we end up sitting in without airflow. Years ago I bough an air circulator (a fan designed to push a lot of air slowly across a room, instead of blowing on a person) specifically to deal with this, and it brought my room-temperature-upper-tolerance from ~76 to ~80 without any need for AC.
Our bodies generate a pocket of heat that we end up sitting in without airflow. Years ago I bough an air circulator (a fan designed to push a lot of air slowly across a room, instead of blowing on a person) specifically to deal with this, and it brought my room-temperature-upper-tolerance from ~76 to ~80 without any need for AC.
I know people "don't do" warm rooms. Though honestly, 74 doesn't even qualify as that.
They should get used to it. Cooling large spaces is a huge waste of electricity, and it's not like 74 degrees is anywhere near hot or miserable.
They should get used to it. Cooling large spaces is a huge waste of electricity, and it's not like 74 degrees is anywhere near hot or miserable.
> I always wonder how much saving water and electricity washing dishes actually matters in relation to everything else we do.
That's always a good concern to have. That's why regulations that restrict consumption for individual appliances or activities are pretty silly.
An overall carbon price (and appropriate water price) would be much more rational than individually banning drinking straws and thirsty dishwashers.
But that's politics for you.
That's always a good concern to have. That's why regulations that restrict consumption for individual appliances or activities are pretty silly.
An overall carbon price (and appropriate water price) would be much more rational than individually banning drinking straws and thirsty dishwashers.
But that's politics for you.
TV, game consoles, most computers (assuming you aren’t mining Bitcoin or something) are basically a rounding error compared to HVAC, and water heating.
It was a lot worse in the 90's, but modern electronic devices sip the juice. I bought a meter to put on an outlet to measure my amperage, and my whole office: Mac, PC, work laptop, cable modem, router, and 1 access point uses 1.5 amps. If I run a AAA game on my PC, it ramps up to about 3a.
People who point to electronic energy usage need to leave my clock cycles alone, and either direct their anger towards the world's elite, with their private planes and yachts, or just shut up completely.
And Microsoft can suck my nuts with their default settings for power savings. Why would I buy a sports car and let someone keep a software governor on the engine?
People who point to electronic energy usage need to leave my clock cycles alone, and either direct their anger towards the world's elite, with their private planes and yachts, or just shut up completely.
And Microsoft can suck my nuts with their default settings for power savings. Why would I buy a sports car and let someone keep a software governor on the engine?
My cynical take is that companies have offloaded the responsibility for being "eco-friendly" on the consumer rather than the companies themselves that use 1000x the energy.
Washing dishes by hand iirc uses 2-3x more water though.
I have always heard that but I never understood how that's possible. I filled a rice bowl with water and reuse that same water to wet all the dirty dishes before rubbing, then rinse with cold running water from the tap.
The majority of the energy used in dishwasher is from heating up the water. If you wash with cold water, you are using less energy than the dish washer.
The majority of the energy used in dishwasher is from heating up the water. If you wash with cold water, you are using less energy than the dish washer.
Fill up the sink high enough to submerge cooking pots, that's most if not all the way there.
Edit: I just measured my kitchen sink and pot for this, 17x19 and 4 inches high = 5.6 gallons. If I go all the way to the sink's overflow at 6.5 inches high, that's 9 gallons.
Edit: I just measured my kitchen sink and pot for this, 17x19 and 4 inches high = 5.6 gallons. If I go all the way to the sink's overflow at 6.5 inches high, that's 9 gallons.
> rinse with cold running water from the tap
You'd better rinse with hot water to get the soap away.
You'd better rinse with hot water to get the soap away.
No, you're not. Water isn't free, and a good dishwasher is more water-efficient than you. Water requires a LOT of energy to pump, so less water means less energy.
From earlier comments, it appears that a dishwasher will consume at least 2.5 gals per cycle. No way does hand washing use 5 to 7.5 gallons of water per wash.
Being a single guy, I stopped using my dish washer for the several dishes I dirty every day and always hand wash. I first put in about an inch of hot water and wash the utensils. I turn on the hot water again to rinse the utensils with the cast off water going back into the wash sink. The rinse sink is used only to hold the clean, rinsed dishes. I continue on washing each item this way (from cleanest to dirtiest). Most of the time when I'm done the sink isn't half-full.
Because I can only use water cool enough to put my hands in, the dishes are not as clean as what a dishwasher can do, but, again, no way does a single wash consume 5+ gallons.
Because I can only use water cool enough to put my hands in, the dishes are not as clean as what a dishwasher can do, but, again, no way does a single wash consume 5+ gallons.
> it appears that a dishwasher will consume at least 2.5 gals per cycle. No way does hand washing use 5 to 7.5 gallons of water per wash.
Rinsing dishes requires fresh water from the tap, which runs somewhere from 1-2 gallons per minute. After filling a sink (or bucket) with water and rinsing everything, it's easy to use 5+ gal to wash dishes.
Rinsing dishes requires fresh water from the tap, which runs somewhere from 1-2 gallons per minute. After filling a sink (or bucket) with water and rinsing everything, it's easy to use 5+ gal to wash dishes.
The standard way my family would clean pots and pans by hand is to fill the sink and let them soak for a bit before scrubbing them. With my current sink, that's just under 9 gallons of water.
Do you have a source for that? I've always heard it, but... I've also watched a lot of people wash dishes in ways that waste lots of water unnecessarily.
I'd be curious how the study was conducted, and if they have video of the study participants washing their dishes.
I'd be curious how the study was conducted, and if they have video of the study participants washing their dishes.
If you fill the sink you're likely already using more water than the dishwasher.
(Note: All of this applies to Australia, if it's much different for your country, please share!)
The one that pains me is ovens. They are hugely power hungry and here many models have a very tiny amount of insulation (unless you get a "pyrolitic" model that heats up to 500C to burn the oil off, they have better insulation by requirement of that).
We have no energy rating for ovens, so no real incentive to improve. The vast majority are also installed by builders when the house is built, so consumers never even make a choice in the first place. You can also imagine that also pushes most builders to the bottom end of the market. I'm also still always surprised how expensive ovens can be for how simple they are.
Most of them now also have a fan to run air around the the outside of the unit so it doesn't overheat the cupboard around it (but not all) which is perhaps also a hint at the poor insulation. The cheap builder model I most recently pulled apart had such poor insulation and gaps all around it.
Choice's most recent review has running cost per year ranging from $310 to $651 (this is unfortunately behind a paywall): https://www.choice.com.au/home-and-living/kitchen/ovens/revi...
"The running costs are calculated based on running the oven at 170°C for one hour, three times per week for 10 years at 30c per kWh. Where available, the fan-forced function is used, otherwise, the fan-assist is used. For models without either function, the top and bottom elements (convection or traditional bake) are used."
That's also probably generous since you often run a higher temp and I suspect 200-220C might make a big difference in that cost.
It's a good reason to make use of appliances like air fryers (which despite the name are mostly just ovens), they heat a much smaller space and use a lot less power as a result.
Unfortunately the ever shrinking house makes storing and using such things increasingly difficult. Microwaves are also only 50% effeceient (a surprise I recently learnt).
I know why we don't have it, and energy ratings are partly a proxy for it, but I always wished the average consumer had easy ways to be more informed about trade-offs exactly like this article talks about. You can trade energy effeciency for a slower cycle - that's partly why most washers these days have many different cycle options - you're trading one thing for another - but most of the time they just tell you the name of the situation they are supposedly for without even a hint at maybe how much more or less energy or water or delicacy you are trading off. The same reason product reviews are never clear cut because everyone has different priorities :)
The one that pains me is ovens. They are hugely power hungry and here many models have a very tiny amount of insulation (unless you get a "pyrolitic" model that heats up to 500C to burn the oil off, they have better insulation by requirement of that).
We have no energy rating for ovens, so no real incentive to improve. The vast majority are also installed by builders when the house is built, so consumers never even make a choice in the first place. You can also imagine that also pushes most builders to the bottom end of the market. I'm also still always surprised how expensive ovens can be for how simple they are.
Most of them now also have a fan to run air around the the outside of the unit so it doesn't overheat the cupboard around it (but not all) which is perhaps also a hint at the poor insulation. The cheap builder model I most recently pulled apart had such poor insulation and gaps all around it.
Choice's most recent review has running cost per year ranging from $310 to $651 (this is unfortunately behind a paywall): https://www.choice.com.au/home-and-living/kitchen/ovens/revi...
"The running costs are calculated based on running the oven at 170°C for one hour, three times per week for 10 years at 30c per kWh. Where available, the fan-forced function is used, otherwise, the fan-assist is used. For models without either function, the top and bottom elements (convection or traditional bake) are used."
That's also probably generous since you often run a higher temp and I suspect 200-220C might make a big difference in that cost.
It's a good reason to make use of appliances like air fryers (which despite the name are mostly just ovens), they heat a much smaller space and use a lot less power as a result.
Unfortunately the ever shrinking house makes storing and using such things increasingly difficult. Microwaves are also only 50% effeceient (a surprise I recently learnt).
I know why we don't have it, and energy ratings are partly a proxy for it, but I always wished the average consumer had easy ways to be more informed about trade-offs exactly like this article talks about. You can trade energy effeciency for a slower cycle - that's partly why most washers these days have many different cycle options - you're trading one thing for another - but most of the time they just tell you the name of the situation they are supposedly for without even a hint at maybe how much more or less energy or water or delicacy you are trading off. The same reason product reviews are never clear cut because everyone has different priorities :)
I don’t have hard numbers, but: the “7th generation” Miele combi-steam oven heats up absurdly quickly, only uses a 20A/240V circuit [0], and stays hot for quite a while if you don’t let it do its automatic cooling cycle. There’s just not enough power available to it for it to be inefficient — it can’t cost $310/year for electricity at $0.3/kWh to use it for 150 hours per year. The oven itself is not cheap, though.
[0] At least here, a 208V element is not available. It works at 208V but not as well.
[0] At least here, a 208V element is not available. It works at 208V but not as well.
V2/R gets you for running it on 208V. It's getting only 75% power then.
> We have no energy rating for ovens, so no real incentive to improve.
If energy prices reflect externalities, you wouldn't need any special regulations or official ratings to give people incentives to get improved appliances.
Energy costs are already giving people incentives to do so, but perhaps they aren't high enough?
If energy prices reflect externalities, you wouldn't need any special regulations or official ratings to give people incentives to get improved appliances.
Energy costs are already giving people incentives to do so, but perhaps they aren't high enough?
That may be true if they at least knew how much energy the oven would use, and, if they actually made the purchasing decision.
There is no way to know how much the oven is using. Even noce purchased, most people have no idea how much energy in their home is used by what (they just get a single bill and for an entire 2 months period).
Lastly as noted, at least here, the majority are installed by builders and included in a package price - the consumer doesn't choose and most builders don't offer an option. Many more would also be chosen by landlords for those who rent, rather than home owners. Or may have been chosen by the home owner that built the house you then purchased.
Thus I would say the number of consumers that directly choose and purchase the oven they use would be a low percentage, and the cost to replace it is high enough to make that unlikely and not have a great payback period.
There is no way to know how much the oven is using. Even noce purchased, most people have no idea how much energy in their home is used by what (they just get a single bill and for an entire 2 months period).
Lastly as noted, at least here, the majority are installed by builders and included in a package price - the consumer doesn't choose and most builders don't offer an option. Many more would also be chosen by landlords for those who rent, rather than home owners. Or may have been chosen by the home owner that built the house you then purchased.
Thus I would say the number of consumers that directly choose and purchase the oven they use would be a low percentage, and the cost to replace it is high enough to make that unlikely and not have a great payback period.
If energy was more expensive, people would care and take this into account when making choices.
Eg in Germany people routinely check out how good the insulation on eg the windows is when they choose a place to buy or rent. That's because energy is expensive in Germany, and it gets cold enough in winter that you need to heat.
If energy is cheap enough, people can be rationally (!) ignorant about these issues.
Eg in Germany people routinely check out how good the insulation on eg the windows is when they choose a place to buy or rent. That's because energy is expensive in Germany, and it gets cold enough in winter that you need to heat.
If energy is cheap enough, people can be rationally (!) ignorant about these issues.
Without an official rating, how exactly is a consumer going to know how much energy an appliance uses? Magic?
Energy ratings inform the customer when they're buying; without them, customers often aren't even aware of their energy use before they buy and install the oven, let alone the comparative efficiency of each oven.
And if energy was more expensive, people would demand energy ratings, or otherwise not buy from that brand.
All ovens (as with nearly all household appliances) in the UK must be displayed with an energy label and include reference to it in adverts.
If the same ovens are available in the UK, then maybe look for the model number on a UK website.
If the same ovens are available in the UK, then maybe look for the model number on a UK website.
Nowadays the default eco cycle that is used to rate European dishwashers typically takes about 3 hours or more, and drying could indeed be better, but other than that, I can't really complain. You can still select a 1-hour 70° heavy duty cycle if needed.
Same with washing machines. My wife gets annoyed, but as far as I'm concerned, I don't really care whether the default cycle takes 1h30 or 5h.
Same with washing machines. My wife gets annoyed, but as far as I'm concerned, I don't really care whether the default cycle takes 1h30 or 5h.
If you need the dish or garment now (or quickly), it's an issue.
If you're not going to be in, or need to process multiple loads (more likely for laundry than dishes) then long cycles turn the process into an all-day, or multi-day, function.
I still prefer hand-washing dishes in most cases as it occurs in parallel with meal prep and eating (fill sink, soak cooking and prep pots and utensils whilst eating, finish and wash table dishes afterward, pop onto a drying rack. Ten minutes. Can be a conversation / bonding time with a partner, or a good time to listen to audiobooks, podcasts, music, etc., if solo.
With a dishwasher, I'm constantly fishing out, and hand-washing, pots, utensils, or dishes that I need either before or during the wash cycle (which takes > 1 hour). Hand-washing that item alone? 1 minute tops.
If you have a large family, there's potential time savings. Solo or couple? Not so much.
As for efficiency: for dishwashers vs. fill sink / soak / scrub, there's little effective difference in water or energy, and the cycle time is far shorter.
If you're not going to be in, or need to process multiple loads (more likely for laundry than dishes) then long cycles turn the process into an all-day, or multi-day, function.
I still prefer hand-washing dishes in most cases as it occurs in parallel with meal prep and eating (fill sink, soak cooking and prep pots and utensils whilst eating, finish and wash table dishes afterward, pop onto a drying rack. Ten minutes. Can be a conversation / bonding time with a partner, or a good time to listen to audiobooks, podcasts, music, etc., if solo.
With a dishwasher, I'm constantly fishing out, and hand-washing, pots, utensils, or dishes that I need either before or during the wash cycle (which takes > 1 hour). Hand-washing that item alone? 1 minute tops.
If you have a large family, there's potential time savings. Solo or couple? Not so much.
As for efficiency: for dishwashers vs. fill sink / soak / scrub, there's little effective difference in water or energy, and the cycle time is far shorter.
> With a dishwasher, I'm constantly fishing out, and hand-washing, pots, utensils, or dishes that I need either before or during the wash cycle (which takes > 1 hour).
You could also just buy more dishes.
You could also just buy more dishes.
Not always an option; particularly if you live in an apartment or are otherwise constrained for storage space.
Clearly, you could just go out and buy a bigger apartment.
</s>
</s>
That typically takes longer than a single dishwasher cycle.
And costs more.
And costs more.
It doesn’t have to take any extra time at all. Just buy more dishes next time you go to the store and you’ll stop running out of dishes during the day, then you can run the dishwasher once at night and never have to hand wash dishes again.
I do the dishes one load at a time (wait for the dishwasher to fill up so I’m not running it empty) and let my European-make dishwasher run overnight when electricity is cheapest and cleanest. But laundry requires being hung or transferred to the dryer immediately after to avoid things getting stinky - and I usually have multiple sorted loads (whites, colors, delicates) that I can’t just throw all together so I actually do get annoyed at how slow my front-loading washing machine is.
While you obviously don't want to leave washing wet for many hours all the time, if they are getting stinky within a few hours you likely have notable bacteria and scud build up in your machine that could be resolved. That has been my experience. Do you do a semi-regular hot cleaning cycle? (My washer has one built in and prompts you to run it every 40 cycles) but you can just do a hot, empty load as a substitute. Possibly ideally with some washing machine cleaner though I don't use that often. There is also the option of pulling it apart for a deep clean.
It doesn't work with every laundry layout (luckily does for me) but I have found leaving the door open so it can dry out is very helpful to prevent mould built up on the doors etc at least. Not sure how much it effects the bacteria/scud/etc - could even make scud worse to some degree since deposits dry out I guess.
Another tip that I only recently learnt is that you can dry washing with a dehumifier at a rate not that much slower than a clothes dryer (6-ish hours). Also at a rate cheaper or comparable to a heat pump dryer. That may be a good option for your staged washing if you're happy to hang the clothes out.
On my washer at least the hour cycle does a pretty good job of things though in theory you're supposed to only wash like 3-4KG instead of 8-11 like in the 2-3 hour cycles.
Two things I am reasonably sure matter but have not looked into the research and need to get around to doing is: - I have to wonder about the impact of long washing loads on clothes longevity and wearing out of the fabric, especially with fuller loads.. that's a lot of rubbing. - The washing powder I currently like the most definitely gets caught and leaves residue.. in particular it builds up -inside- the detergent drawer and becomes so glued on even a pressure washer and screwdriver takes a lot of effort to get it off (clearly needs CLR or some such). I am sure some detergents are much better at not building up SCUD compared to others but this seems to be a not well discussed/reviewed fact.
It doesn't work with every laundry layout (luckily does for me) but I have found leaving the door open so it can dry out is very helpful to prevent mould built up on the doors etc at least. Not sure how much it effects the bacteria/scud/etc - could even make scud worse to some degree since deposits dry out I guess.
Another tip that I only recently learnt is that you can dry washing with a dehumifier at a rate not that much slower than a clothes dryer (6-ish hours). Also at a rate cheaper or comparable to a heat pump dryer. That may be a good option for your staged washing if you're happy to hang the clothes out.
On my washer at least the hour cycle does a pretty good job of things though in theory you're supposed to only wash like 3-4KG instead of 8-11 like in the 2-3 hour cycles.
Two things I am reasonably sure matter but have not looked into the research and need to get around to doing is: - I have to wonder about the impact of long washing loads on clothes longevity and wearing out of the fabric, especially with fuller loads.. that's a lot of rubbing. - The washing powder I currently like the most definitely gets caught and leaves residue.. in particular it builds up -inside- the detergent drawer and becomes so glued on even a pressure washer and screwdriver takes a lot of effort to get it off (clearly needs CLR or some such). I am sure some detergents are much better at not building up SCUD compared to others but this seems to be a not well discussed/reviewed fact.
Thanks for your kind and detailed reply!
I didn’t really mean “immediately” so much as “you can’t leave it overnight then possibly forget about it the next morning,” but yeah, it seems to depend on the weather and other things (more on that below). Hasn’t happened in a while. The washing machine is clean, I scrub out the mold in the detergent tray regularly and have always left the door open. I used to run the cleaning cycle from time to time but don’t think it is necessary since I do whites with plenty bleach at scalding hot temps often enough. It happened with our old top loader, too. More than anything though, you can smell a moldy washer and ours doesn’t smell and a freshly washed load normally doesn’t either.
It seems to be the Lake Michigan water we are hooked up to responsible for the stinky occasions. I read up about this a few years ago and they actually monitor for the levels of the molecule (I don’t think it was bacteria?) that gives wet clothes their stink since it is rampant in the Great Lakes and they are constantly adjusting because it’s expensive to counteract more than they feel they need to. My guess is that they got their act together in recent years. Another point in this direction is that it happens some summers to towels used after a shower while they’re hanging to dry. I’m pretty sure it’s just the water.
Oh, and in answer to your question, we definitely noticed the euro-style front-loader was harder on the clothes than the old American top-loader – though it also did get more stains out. But yes, we too fill it up properly to capacity to avoid the waste of running it empty or mostly so - and I guess the increased friction would contribute.
I didn’t really mean “immediately” so much as “you can’t leave it overnight then possibly forget about it the next morning,” but yeah, it seems to depend on the weather and other things (more on that below). Hasn’t happened in a while. The washing machine is clean, I scrub out the mold in the detergent tray regularly and have always left the door open. I used to run the cleaning cycle from time to time but don’t think it is necessary since I do whites with plenty bleach at scalding hot temps often enough. It happened with our old top loader, too. More than anything though, you can smell a moldy washer and ours doesn’t smell and a freshly washed load normally doesn’t either.
It seems to be the Lake Michigan water we are hooked up to responsible for the stinky occasions. I read up about this a few years ago and they actually monitor for the levels of the molecule (I don’t think it was bacteria?) that gives wet clothes their stink since it is rampant in the Great Lakes and they are constantly adjusting because it’s expensive to counteract more than they feel they need to. My guess is that they got their act together in recent years. Another point in this direction is that it happens some summers to towels used after a shower while they’re hanging to dry. I’m pretty sure it’s just the water.
Oh, and in answer to your question, we definitely noticed the euro-style front-loader was harder on the clothes than the old American top-loader – though it also did get more stains out. But yes, we too fill it up properly to capacity to avoid the waste of running it empty or mostly so - and I guess the increased friction would contribute.
I found the link I had archived three years ago (when I mentioned researching this some years back): a Chicago Tribune article from 1994 [0]! There are lots of other search results that discuss the byproducts of various algal blooms contributing to a particular stink in Lake Michigan water, some mention the active carbon filtration and another [1], the use of ozone to neutralize the responsible compounds, but only the 1994 article actually names the responsible compounds: geosmin and 2-methylisoborneol (2-MIB). (I remembered geosmin – the sometimes nice, sometimes not, smell of the earth after a rain – while writing my reply yesterday but could not recall the second compound for the life of me and I knew/know geosmin wasn’t solely responsible for the smell on its own.)
[0]: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1994-11-20-941120... archived at https://archive.ph/qV723#
[1]: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1999-06-25-990625... just archived at https://archive.ph/wip/ybQ9N
—-
There’s also this 53-page survey of contributors to taste and smell in water supplies from the Illinois State Water Survey out of UIUC that I would love to get around to reading (or at least skimming through): https://www.isws.illinois.edu/pubdoc/C/ISWSC-127.pdf
[0]: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1994-11-20-941120... archived at https://archive.ph/qV723#
[1]: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1999-06-25-990625... just archived at https://archive.ph/wip/ybQ9N
—-
There’s also this 53-page survey of contributors to taste and smell in water supplies from the Illinois State Water Survey out of UIUC that I would love to get around to reading (or at least skimming through): https://www.isws.illinois.edu/pubdoc/C/ISWSC-127.pdf
Another drying option is hybrid-mode.
Drip-dry (usually whilst completing other loads) on a drying rack. This often removes most moisture.
If still damp, put the laundry in the dryer for a quick cycle.
This maximises the efficiencies of each mode: drip-drying tends to quickly shed the initial bulk water through, er, dripping. A warm-air dryer is relatively ineffective when laundry is dripping wet, but is quite good at removing final traces of moisture.
If you have time, a fan blowing over a drying rack will also speed drying.
Outdoor lines can be quite effective especially in hot, dry climates. Less so in rain or fog.
Drip-dry (usually whilst completing other loads) on a drying rack. This often removes most moisture.
If still damp, put the laundry in the dryer for a quick cycle.
This maximises the efficiencies of each mode: drip-drying tends to quickly shed the initial bulk water through, er, dripping. A warm-air dryer is relatively ineffective when laundry is dripping wet, but is quite good at removing final traces of moisture.
If you have time, a fan blowing over a drying rack will also speed drying.
Outdoor lines can be quite effective especially in hot, dry climates. Less so in rain or fog.
> A warm-air dryer is relatively ineffective when laundry is dripping wet, but is quite good at removing final traces of moisture.
I thought that’s what the centrifugal action was for (even with no heat involved); basically emulating gravity to get the clothes to “drip” outward into the perforations. I imagine it achieves greater than 1g making it actually more effective than traditional drip drying?
I thought that’s what the centrifugal action was for (even with no heat involved); basically emulating gravity to get the clothes to “drip” outward into the perforations. I imagine it achieves greater than 1g making it actually more effective than traditional drip drying?
High-speed spin is a feature of top-load, or even more so, front-load washing machines. The latter will spin at 900--1200 RPM, and the resulting laundry is best described as "damp" rather than the "wet" of a top-loader, which typically spins at about 800 RPM.
<https://www.hunker.com/12003102/how-fast-does-a-washing-mach...>
The tumbling motion of a hot-air dryer is more to circulate the laundry and expose it to airflow than to generate centrifugal drying.
Note that airflow alone will dry clothes (though more slowly), and that leaving your dryer on a low-heat setting is not that much slower, whilst it tends to be far less harsh on fabrics. Much of laundry wear occurs in the dryer rather than the washing machine.
<https://www.hunker.com/12003102/how-fast-does-a-washing-mach...>
The tumbling motion of a hot-air dryer is more to circulate the laundry and expose it to airflow than to generate centrifugal drying.
Note that airflow alone will dry clothes (though more slowly), and that leaving your dryer on a low-heat setting is not that much slower, whilst it tends to be far less harsh on fabrics. Much of laundry wear occurs in the dryer rather than the washing machine.
Related:
From an Appliance repair/reseller "Bens Appliances and Junk" "Clean a Washing Machine Inside: How to Remove Mold, Soap Scum and More with a CHEAP Organic Cleaner" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOXM81Zk_As
"How The Insides Of Washing Machines Are Deep Cleaned | Deep Cleaned | Insider" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I45FqVN-PjE
From an Appliance repair/reseller "Bens Appliances and Junk" "Clean a Washing Machine Inside: How to Remove Mold, Soap Scum and More with a CHEAP Organic Cleaner" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOXM81Zk_As
"How The Insides Of Washing Machines Are Deep Cleaned | Deep Cleaned | Insider" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I45FqVN-PjE
> Possibly ideally with some washing machine cleaner though I don't use that often.
For the record, those cleaners are usually pure sodium percarbonate (commercially sold as Oxiclean/Napisan). When combined with a hot cyle (60 degrees Celsius or higher) it does a good job sterilising your washing machine.
For the record, those cleaners are usually pure sodium percarbonate (commercially sold as Oxiclean/Napisan). When combined with a hot cyle (60 degrees Celsius or higher) it does a good job sterilising your washing machine.
What I don't understand is why my (most?) washing machine(s) doesn't have a "delay" setting to hold for 6h or whatever overnight and then finish before rates spike in the morning.
Then the water in the water heater is nice and fresh for my shower too.
Then the water in the water heater is nice and fresh for my shower too.
It's quite common in the UK for washers/dryers to have a delay feature.
Mine (an LG model) has a "Delay End" function, where you say "I want the cycle to end in 9 hours", and it calculates when to start based on that.
Mine (an LG model) has a "Delay End" function, where you say "I want the cycle to end in 9 hours", and it calculates when to start based on that.
My front-loading Whirlpool has a delay start and I wish it had delay end instead! I end up pessimistically delaying it less than the ideal amount just to make sure it finishes by the time I’m up in the morning.
The only appliance I have with a “delay end” or “schedule end” feature is my Zojirushi rice cooker (and ironically I never use the timer feature there).
The only appliance I have with a “delay end” or “schedule end” feature is my Zojirushi rice cooker (and ironically I never use the timer feature there).
[deleted]
I had the same reaction as lathiat, if your washer smells bad because clean wet clothes sat in it for a couple hours you "probably" need to clean it. I also think people have a bad habit of closing the front door of front loaders between use.
You a front loader open? Thats weird to me; itd be like leaving a cabinet open - unsightly and a bruise waiting to happen when someone thoughtlessly walks through it.
Luckily I have a top loader
Luckily I have a top loader
US front load washers are designed to require the front door left open after or between uses. Otherwise they can and will develop mold. (Ask me how I know.) The idea is that they are usually located out of sight or at least out of the way in the US, so this isn't a big deal. Sometimes that assumption isn't true, which can generate a major hassle.
My Father in Law got one recently that has a fan to blow the gasket dry after use, so you don't have to have the door left open. There's a small grill on the top of the door that the air exhausts out of. It's something I'm looking at when mine dies (since it is something like 12 years old, even if it wasn't used for 6 of them).
Not only mold in the tub, but the pull-out tray thing where you put the detergent. Switching to powder laundry detergent made a big difference until I was able to upgrade to a top loader.
How/why do European front-loaders avoid that problem?
It's the same. You're supposed to keep the door open. Also, some water tends to stay in the detergent tray, so it's best to take it out after each cycle, empty it and put it back, but don't close it all the way.
So essentialy, when the machine is idle, you end up with both the tray and the door open.
So essentialy, when the machine is idle, you end up with both the tray and the door open.
Yes; that's what I know. GP qualified it with "US models" so I was wondering if there was something I was missing.
They don't, it's in the manual to leave it open.
> unsightly
Does that really matters? Do you take your guest first to sight-see your washing machine?
Does that really matters? Do you take your guest first to sight-see your washing machine?
>But laundry requires being hung or transferred to the dryer immediately after to avoid things getting stinky
This is why you should get a combined washer/dryer. I never worry about this.
This is why you should get a combined washer/dryer. I never worry about this.
The coin op washer/dryer ones in Japan include detergent as well, though I’m not sure how effective they are. We added extra.
If you are doing 3 loads (whites, colors, towels) it means 15 hours vs 4.5 hours.
You separate your dishes by color when washing them?
Well yeah, how else do you stop color bleeding out and staining your other dishes?
[deleted]
Ouch… Now I feel dumb.
I suspect (both because of the color separation and the reference to towels) you have confused laundry machines with dishwashers.
One doesn't usually separate dishes by color before washing them in a dishwasher, and even if for some reason one did, one still wouldn't usually wash towels in a dishwasher.
One doesn't usually separate dishes by color before washing them in a dishwasher, and even if for some reason one did, one still wouldn't usually wash towels in a dishwasher.
the second half of the GP comments changes topics to laundry, which is what I assume the parent comment was replying to
Without kids, we have no need to wash several loads on the same day. We separate colors, whites (mostly bed sheets) and towels, but they don't amount to a full load at the same time and get washed on their own periodic schedule, which never overlap.
You don't need to separate any of those things when doing laundry. You're just making more work for yourself.
Modern laundry washing machines also have a "finish at" timer. I set mine to finish at 8am so after breakfast I empty it out. If we really need to do 2 loads a day (it happens sometimes with a family) then the second one is done around lunch time.
Modern laundry washing machines also have a "finish at" timer. I set mine to finish at 8am so after breakfast I empty it out. If we really need to do 2 loads a day (it happens sometimes with a family) then the second one is done around lunch time.
It's so horrible that I can't get a washing machine that's fast. I don't care about the other metrics, just get it done perfectly. That's the most important.
I bought a modern premium dishwasher a few years ago. The drying did not work very well, so I called the service. To my suprise only a few hours later a serviceman came plugged his laptop into the machine and prolonged the drying time and everything was perfect. The easiest solution for the manufacturer to get the A++ energy label for this machine was obviously to deliver a machine that does not dry and if someone complains just adjust it rapidily. This is green washing.
Is it greenwashing? The vast majority of people won’t complain to the manufacturer, they’ll just recognize it doesn’t dry very well.
Although my understanding is drying cycles are longer than the actual run time. They heat up the ceramic and glass then turn off the heater and let the moisture evaporate. Opening the dish washer slightly and letting it sit for a while will usually completely dry the dishes.
Although my understanding is drying cycles are longer than the actual run time. They heat up the ceramic and glass then turn off the heater and let the moisture evaporate. Opening the dish washer slightly and letting it sit for a while will usually completely dry the dishes.
It's not green washing if it actually reduces electricity consumption. Anyway, Miele dishwashers use unheated air blown over the dishes to dry them with minimal cost if you choose the long cycle (i.e. overnight). Bosch doesn't have that feature but also dries ok if you open it up 10 minutes before emptying it. What brand did you have?
One final tip though is that tupperware is a drying killer. The cheap plastic absorbs oils over time and creates a film that never really dries - making the whole dryer damp. Get rid of those and move to glass for a much better experience in every way.
One final tip though is that tupperware is a drying killer. The cheap plastic absorbs oils over time and creates a film that never really dries - making the whole dryer damp. Get rid of those and move to glass for a much better experience in every way.
> few hours later a serviceman came plugged his laptop into the machine and prolonged the drying time
This is the interesting part of your story.
Communicate Directly with Appliances for Real-Time Diagnostics - SmartHQ GE Appliance Service Tool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu02_mvDQEI
APK, probably... https://apkpure.com/smarthq-service-formerly-newf/com.geappl...
Interesting idea re-flashing the firmware on your dishwasher or changing internal settings.
This is the interesting part of your story.
Communicate Directly with Appliances for Real-Time Diagnostics - SmartHQ GE Appliance Service Tool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu02_mvDQEI
APK, probably... https://apkpure.com/smarthq-service-formerly-newf/com.geappl...
Interesting idea re-flashing the firmware on your dishwasher or changing internal settings.
I totally do not agree with the "don't prewash in the sink" bullshit. It's based on specious reasoning about how "well" automatic dirt sensors can work. And, it does not necessarily waste water. "it depends" -eg if you wipe the plates with a cloth, there may be less running water.
Dishwasher checks by consumer groups do not test egg protein, or avocado. They need to test with real world, tight locking protein and fats.
And with lentils: the amount of fine gritty fibre which can remain in suspension is just fantastic. And then in the rinse cycle, it sits in the feet of plates and cups.
I also believe that electro-coupling between different metals in cutlery means they age faster if you don't space them properly. If they touch, they can make a circuit.
Dishwasher checks by consumer groups do not test egg protein, or avocado. They need to test with real world, tight locking protein and fats.
And with lentils: the amount of fine gritty fibre which can remain in suspension is just fantastic. And then in the rinse cycle, it sits in the feet of plates and cups.
I also believe that electro-coupling between different metals in cutlery means they age faster if you don't space them properly. If they touch, they can make a circuit.
If it weren't for the internet, it never would have even occurred to me to 'prewash in the sink', how difficult is it to wash a single plate anyway, at the point I'm 'prewashing' each plate I may as well just wash it in the sink?
The best I can come up with is that maybe it's advocates have a lot left on the plate, and where I would scrape into compost if that happened are using a sink garbage disposal grinder thing?
If it's just some kind of saucy residue like goes into my dishwasher (without any need for any kind of 'prewashing') then any machine that can't cope with it needs returning.
The best I can come up with is that maybe it's advocates have a lot left on the plate, and where I would scrape into compost if that happened are using a sink garbage disposal grinder thing?
If it's just some kind of saucy residue like goes into my dishwasher (without any need for any kind of 'prewashing') then any machine that can't cope with it needs returning.
We have an automatic pre-washer that works quite well, the brand is Golden Retriever.
Hope you never eat anything with, among other things, onions or garlic.
My dog (a dachshund/rat terrier mutt) once dug up and ate whole bulbs of garlic from our garden. Terrified, we took him to the vet. The vet said "if garlic was likely to hurt terriers, there would be no terriers."
I'm not suggesting anyone run out and feed their dog a bunch of garlic on purpose - that would be dumb - but if you look at the toxicity data, a 30 lb dog would need to eat something like 200 grams of garlic to have a serious problem.
I'm not suggesting anyone run out and feed their dog a bunch of garlic on purpose - that would be dumb - but if you look at the toxicity data, a 30 lb dog would need to eat something like 200 grams of garlic to have a serious problem.
> Hope you never eat anything with, among other things, onions or garlic.
As with many things, the risk is highly overstated -- so please stop spreading FUD.
----
"Onion poisoning is consistently noted in pets who consume more than 0.5% of their body weight in onions."
https://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/can-dogs-eat-onions
----
"Consuming as little as 2 grams per pound of your dog’s weight can cause observable changes in a pet's stomach, and larger amounts can damage the blood. For reference, each garlic clove weighs an average of 5 grams. For a medium-sized dog weighing around 25 pounds, treatment will be needed if they ingest 50 grams of garlic—approximately 10 cloves, or half of a garlic bulb."
https://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/can-dogs-eat-garlic
----
Unless you're literally feeding your dog a dish with onions and garlic, it isn't an issue.
As with many things, the risk is highly overstated -- so please stop spreading FUD.
----
"Onion poisoning is consistently noted in pets who consume more than 0.5% of their body weight in onions."
https://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/can-dogs-eat-onions
----
"Consuming as little as 2 grams per pound of your dog’s weight can cause observable changes in a pet's stomach, and larger amounts can damage the blood. For reference, each garlic clove weighs an average of 5 grams. For a medium-sized dog weighing around 25 pounds, treatment will be needed if they ingest 50 grams of garlic—approximately 10 cloves, or half of a garlic bulb."
https://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/can-dogs-eat-garlic
----
Unless you're literally feeding your dog a dish with onions and garlic, it isn't an issue.
Truth be told (which will stick it to the "that's disgusting" response), we don't do it very often, and definitely try to stay away from the bad-for-dogs foods (onions, garlic, grapes, chocolate). The bulk of the pre-washing happens in the dishwasher or in the sink.
dogowner555(3)
[deleted]
> how difficult is it to wash a single plate anyway, at the point I'm 'prewashing' each plate I may as well just wash it in the sink?
Wife and I came to the same conclusion. We just wash things in the sink, and use the dishwasher as an overpriced drying rack.
Wife and I came to the same conclusion. We just wash things in the sink, and use the dishwasher as an overpriced drying rack.
The dishwasher already pre-washes.
I've put stuff absolutely covered in peanut butter, egg, bottom of air fryer, hot pot pan, etc in the dishwasher without prewash. Always comes out clean.
I've put stuff absolutely covered in peanut butter, egg, bottom of air fryer, hot pot pan, etc in the dishwasher without prewash. Always comes out clean.
Yes, I'm not sure I'd call it 'pre-washing' (it's just washing?) but we agree. To be clear I don't 'pre-wash in the sink', I was saying it's absurd to me and didn't even occur to me as an option or a decision I was making not to - I also don't 'pre-wash' my clothes, for example - until seeing people (mostly Americans perhaps) talk about it online. I don't think I've ever even heard of it in person, nevermind known someone do it.
Yeah I realized we were in agreement after posting :D
What I've noticed is it's heavily dependent on the dishwasher.
I've not had the privilege of having a new dishwasher till my most recent place, all the dishwashers prior have been 10+ years old. This new one though which is a Miele dishwasher has maybe 1-2 dishes that need to be manually washed per week at the very most. Whereas my older dishwashers it was anything from an extra 1-2 dishwasher loads per week worth of failed cleans.
I've not had the privilege of having a new dishwasher till my most recent place, all the dishwashers prior have been 10+ years old. This new one though which is a Miele dishwasher has maybe 1-2 dishes that need to be manually washed per week at the very most. Whereas my older dishwashers it was anything from an extra 1-2 dishwasher loads per week worth of failed cleans.
I'm surprised you need to do that much. I end up with probably more like 1-2 a year that need manual cleaning without ever prewashing.
More likely a reflection of my partner and I's diet. A lot of broths, soups and similar. Even 30 minutes of the plate being static in the dishwasher means the food dries on and sticks.
We don't rinse our plates, just scrape them. If I have to hand wash 1-2 bowls and plates over the week it's a non-event. We're still saving a lot of water compared to hand rinsing all of our dishes before putting them in the Miele.
We don't rinse our plates, just scrape them. If I have to hand wash 1-2 bowls and plates over the week it's a non-event. We're still saving a lot of water compared to hand rinsing all of our dishes before putting them in the Miele.
IDK I eat oatmeal every morning and only run a load every few days.. Dried on oatmeal is not match for the normal cycle even at half-load setting. Nothing survives the enzymes in modern detergent and the cascading coverage of my dishwasher..
If my dishwasher has a dish in it that didn't get clean I just... leave it in there for the next cycle. It'll get clean eventually.
I honestly thought a second bash wouldn't help, but it's worth a crack. I'll give it a go.
It sort of depends? For most stains it works just fine, but it's hit-or-miss for vegetable matter. Spinach especially has a tendency to stick to things and then get rock hard in the drying cycle. For those I manually scrape off the spinach with a fingernail -- it's usually only one or two flakes -- before sticking it in for another cycle.
I don’t prewash and it works pretty well. The problem is if bits of food sit overnight in the washer they spoil and make the whole wash stink.
Maybe it’s your dishwasher or you are not putting powder in the pre-rinse compartment in addition to the action pack or powder in the main compartment. It doesn’t matter how old or baked-on the food residue is, and it can be baked-on cheese, egg, meat, burned gravy, whatever and it’ll reliably come off in the (European) dishwasher each time, every time.
Even when I was in a rental with a crappy American unit from the 80s, it would still get everything though I often had to use the extended “pots and pans” cycles for that to happen.
But yes, utensils can and do corrode in the dishwasher over time if you have different metals thrown together in the high-temp, high-conductivity alkaline bath.
Even when I was in a rental with a crappy American unit from the 80s, it would still get everything though I often had to use the extended “pots and pans” cycles for that to happen.
But yes, utensils can and do corrode in the dishwasher over time if you have different metals thrown together in the high-temp, high-conductivity alkaline bath.
"if you use a 2hr + programme then nothing survives the caustic soda"
Sure. The point is, normalising "you have to wash dishes for 2 hours" and saying "shifts stubborn stains" is really overdoing it. If you can get some of these foods off the plates before they dry, and can do a shorter wash, its win--win
Sure. The point is, normalising "you have to wash dishes for 2 hours" and saying "shifts stubborn stains" is really overdoing it. If you can get some of these foods off the plates before they dry, and can do a shorter wash, its win--win
By letting the food “sit,” I save water two different ways: no need to rinse off proteins or sauces, and no need to run the dishwasher with a less-than-full-load (which wastes both water and electricity).
To be honest, since having kids and their being at a certain age, we now run the dishwasher filled to the brim every other day at most, so it’s a moot point. But in all cases, it runs while we’re sleeping and it makes no difference to me if it takes an hour or six.
The only time I’ve ever wished it finished faster is on the occasion of hosting guests and having more than the regular expected daily churn in dining ware. And that doesn’t happen enough to matter.
To be honest, since having kids and their being at a certain age, we now run the dishwasher filled to the brim every other day at most, so it’s a moot point. But in all cases, it runs while we’re sleeping and it makes no difference to me if it takes an hour or six.
The only time I’ve ever wished it finished faster is on the occasion of hosting guests and having more than the regular expected daily churn in dining ware. And that doesn’t happen enough to matter.
Is it though? It’s not like you have to sit there watching the dishwasher for 2 hours.
Why even have a dishwasher if you have to (pre)wash your dishes anyway?
Why bother with plates when we have teeshirts to hold the soup in?
Are you implying that even when you employ plates and bowls, you still have to also use t-shirts to hold the soup?
If that's the case: (A) yes, your analogy is sound. And (B), you should probably switch crockery, because most people don't have this problem.
If that's the case: (A) yes, your analogy is sound. And (B), you should probably switch crockery, because most people don't have this problem.
Ive never put a dish into the washer without pre-washing it.
Surprising. I’ve found any dishwasher I’ve bought in the last 10 years has been absolutely _baller_ at washing dishes. Maybe it’s because I’m willing to spend the money on the good ones though.
So what's a good one?
Bosch, Thermador, Miele are typically the recommended ones. Thermador is essentially a high end Bosch.
Only annoying thing about upgrading to the euro dishwashers is that they're not hard-wired. So you have to install a receptacle in an adjoining cabinet and plug into that (or cut the plug and hardwire... but not officially recommended).
I guess it's because europeans typically take their appliances when they move instead of leaving them in place (as they typically do in North America).
Costco had the best pricing on Bosch in my opinion. Cheap delivery and removal of the old unit. Was really surprised how lightweight a washing machine is, but I guess it's just a shell with a pump thin metal+plastic drawers at the end of the day.
I guess it's because europeans typically take their appliances when they move instead of leaving them in place (as they typically do in North America).
Costco had the best pricing on Bosch in my opinion. Cheap delivery and removal of the old unit. Was really surprised how lightweight a washing machine is, but I guess it's just a shell with a pump thin metal+plastic drawers at the end of the day.
It's like that in canada too, we have to hardwire a special unit and the washer plugs into that.
Not sure what you mean about hard wiring. Bosch dishwashers come with the option of either the usual plug, or a hardwire kit. Also, maybe it's a regional thing, but every dishwasher I've ever used (mostly cheaper brands that were in apartments) used regular outlets. You just cut a hole in the cabinet next to the sink, and the outlet was underneath the sink, usually next to the outlet for the garbage disposal.
I have installed my own dishwashers since the first house I bought, never seen one that had an electrical plug connection. Nor have I seen one on a garbage disposal for that matter, both are always hard-wired in my experience (I'm in the USA). I had assumed it was a code requirement since I'd never seen it done any other way.
For apartments, where tenants are more likely to abuse the appliances, a plug-in might make some sense, as it would make installing a new dishwasher slightly easier, and avoid needing to cut the power on that circuit to wire up a hard connection.
For apartments, where tenants are more likely to abuse the appliances, a plug-in might make some sense, as it would make installing a new dishwasher slightly easier, and avoid needing to cut the power on that circuit to wire up a hard connection.
After a brief search it looks like Bosch dishwashers in the USA only come with a 3 prong plug. You have to buy a separate accessory if you wish to hardwire.
And their junction box is CAD$32+tax. No thanks.
Yep, 100% Miele.
My Miele is absolutely perfect. Quiet, convenient, and very, very effective. Stylish, too.
Despite the internet providing a whole bunch of new ways to rate and compare things, the best way is still the same thing your mother and grandmother used:
https://www.consumerreports.org/appliances/dishwashers/best-...
https://www.consumerreports.org/appliances/dishwashers/best-...
My only problems with those listings are that they place a top premium on loudness of the dishwasher, and therefore they recommend Bosch as the quietest ones you can buy.
Whereas I place a top premium on the dishwasher actually getting the dishes clean, and then getting them dry afterwards. Bosch does fine on the first part, but without a heated drying cycle, they're rubbish on the second part.
I will never again buy another dishwasher without a heated drying cycle.
So, yes -- use those tests and listings, but make sure you fully understand the data behind them and assign your own priorities to those attributes that you value. Because what CR values may not be the same thing that you value.
Whereas I place a top premium on the dishwasher actually getting the dishes clean, and then getting them dry afterwards. Bosch does fine on the first part, but without a heated drying cycle, they're rubbish on the second part.
I will never again buy another dishwasher without a heated drying cycle.
So, yes -- use those tests and listings, but make sure you fully understand the data behind them and assign your own priorities to those attributes that you value. Because what CR values may not be the same thing that you value.
Agreed. I don't care how loud the dishwasher is. It runs at night and it's in the kitchen not the bedroom.
Unfortunately you have to login or signup to view the list (or at least for me that is the case)
I bought a new one to replace a crappy one that did nothing. I can recommend. Bosch.
I bought bosch to replace maytag or whirlpool, forgot which it was. Not impressed with bosch, quality of wash is slightly better than my old one. It is quieter, otherwise I don’t see much improvement.
Maytag, Whirlpool, Amana, and KitchenAid used to be separate brands but now they (along with many others) are all owned by Whirlpool.
https://whirlpoolcorp.com/brands-we-love/
https://whirlpoolcorp.com/brands-we-love/
The most important things is to make sure the tub is stainless steel. Not a mix, all stainless (the outer shell can be whatever) . The detergent (what really gets stuff clean) is super nasty and will eventually eat the plastic.
That being said, next look at the brand. I have a Bosch and its great, super silent. If you hear a noise, you loaded your dishes too tightly and they're banging against each other.
That being said, next look at the brand. I have a Bosch and its great, super silent. If you hear a noise, you loaded your dishes too tightly and they're banging against each other.
I am a fan of my Bosh dishwashers.
Miele or Bosch.
Why does a 1 hour cycle wash better than a two hour cycle? This article is pretty light on details.
It allows for two runs after a long dinner during normal waking hours, as opposed to just one.
I get that, and I believe most dish washers have an "express cycle" that'll run in significantly less time when you need.
Not for any residential, standard 24" below the counter, dishwasher sold in the U.S. after 2010 and before October 2020 that I've seen, hence why it was a noteworthy change.
This is definitely not true. I have 2012 and 2017 dishwashers that each have this. They also wash just fine. Really not sure what the article is on about.
Bosch 800-series reporting in, ~6-8 years old (~2015): Standard cycle: 2h09m, "Save Time": 1h30m, Express: 30m.
I love my Bosch washer. Bought one for my house, my rentals, my cottage. Whisper quiet and food is never stuck on the dishes after a load - unless someone packs the unit wrong.
Can you link the model number?
Not OP, but I googled bosch 800 series, the pics have a "speed 60" cycle: https://www.bosch-home.ca/en/shop-products/SHXM78Z55N#/
Not only is it discontinued, but it doesn't seem to have info. on when it was introduced. Can you link a model that is confirmed to predate November 2020?
> Not only is it discontinued,
It's well available at retailers in Canada. I could go purchase one this afternoon.
> but it doesn't seem to have info. on when it was introduced. Can you link a model that is confirmed to predate November 2020?
The product manual mentions a revision to the power cord made in September 2020, so that product predates nov 2020.
It's well available at retailers in Canada. I could go purchase one this afternoon.
> but it doesn't seem to have info. on when it was introduced. Can you link a model that is confirmed to predate November 2020?
The product manual mentions a revision to the power cord made in September 2020, so that product predates nov 2020.
> It's well available at retailers in Canada. I could go purchase one this afternoon.
How is that relevant to the fact that the manufacturer has discontinued it?
Retailers can sell products they have in stock even if they are no longer manufactured.
Looking at the instruction manual it's clear that both the 'Express' and 'Speed60' modes are skipping some steps of the cleaning process as it says:
Normal
Recommended for daily, regular or typical use to completely wash a full load of normally soiled dishes.
Speed60®
Cleans freshly soiled dishes with easy to remove soils. This cycle reduces cycle time while still including drying.
Express
Cleans lightly soiled dishes and reduces overall wash time. Use this cycle to clean glasses and dessert dishware that may need to be reused at the same event.
How is that relevant to the fact that the manufacturer has discontinued it?
Retailers can sell products they have in stock even if they are no longer manufactured.
Looking at the instruction manual it's clear that both the 'Express' and 'Speed60' modes are skipping some steps of the cleaning process as it says:
Normal
Recommended for daily, regular or typical use to completely wash a full load of normally soiled dishes.
Speed60®
Cleans freshly soiled dishes with easy to remove soils. This cycle reduces cycle time while still including drying.
Express
Cleans lightly soiled dishes and reduces overall wash time. Use this cycle to clean glasses and dessert dishware that may need to be reused at the same event.
You were asking for a machine to wash dishes in an hour with a dishwasher available between 2010 and 2020. This machine clearly fits that bill. Now you want something that is also available now (but not from a store only from the brand's website), and it needs to use an identical cleaning cycle to the normal mode.
You've moved the goalposts so far they're onto an entirely different field here.
You've moved the goalposts so far they're onto an entirely different field here.
> You were asking for a machine to wash dishes in an hour with a dishwasher available between 2010 and 2020. This machine clearly fits that bill. Now you want something that is also available now (but not from a store only from the brand's website), and it needs to use an identical cleaning cycle to the normal mode.
You've moved the goalposts so far they're onto an entirely different field here.
So your going to pretend the first part of my comment doesn't exist?
It seems a bit self-defeating to be honest since I can't see how anyone will pay more attention to your views after.
Since it appears your confused as to what the article is about, let me spell it out step by step:
It's clearly not moving the goalposts because the whole point behind this change was that it was spurred on by recent dishwashers, circa 2020, that don't clean as well, so giving an example of a dishwasher that doesn't clean as well in a faster mode, is pointless. Since that is already understood as a possibility by everyone who read it.
It's not some hidden secret that all dishwashers can be sped up by lowering the bar in the cleaning cycle. What's interesting is if it's able to maintain the same level of performance in less time, typically at the cost of increased energy and water usage, hence the nominal basis for this rule change by the DOE in 2020.
So your going to pretend the first part of my comment doesn't exist?
It seems a bit self-defeating to be honest since I can't see how anyone will pay more attention to your views after.
Since it appears your confused as to what the article is about, let me spell it out step by step:
It's clearly not moving the goalposts because the whole point behind this change was that it was spurred on by recent dishwashers, circa 2020, that don't clean as well, so giving an example of a dishwasher that doesn't clean as well in a faster mode, is pointless. Since that is already understood as a possibility by everyone who read it.
It's not some hidden secret that all dishwashers can be sped up by lowering the bar in the cleaning cycle. What's interesting is if it's able to maintain the same level of performance in less time, typically at the cost of increased energy and water usage, hence the nominal basis for this rule change by the DOE in 2020.
SHXN8U55UC/07
Hmm. My kitchenaid dishwasher from that time period has an express cycle. Maybe it wasn't a new model at the time?
You should double check if the express cycle actually attains the same cleaning performance, because that would be pretty surprising.
I did see examples when shopping that were in advertisement only. i.e. the 'express cycle' skipped something, the drying stage, or rinse stage(s), etc.
I did see examples when shopping that were in advertisement only. i.e. the 'express cycle' skipped something, the drying stage, or rinse stage(s), etc.
I have a 2016 Bosch SHX65T55SS (USA model) that offers a 40 minute Express cycle. We use it all the time. Works great.
According to the bosch-home.com website this model does not exist anywhere, the closest is SHX65T55UC, are you sure you didn't misread the label?
I grabbed that SKU off my Abt invoice but it's actually a SHX65T55UC/07 per the door label. It's a 500 series model. SKUs change all the time, especially after 7 years.
Have you checked the manual?, it clearly states that the express modes are for reduced levels of cleaning.
That's true. What really happens is this:
- The dishwasher runs balls-out for 40 minutes so it's noisier. (Bosch sells a lot of units on its reputation of being ultra quiet)
- Manual mode doesn't check the soil sensor while washing.
- There is no drying cycle, which is the bulk of a two hour wash.
So if you're okay with that, Manual works just fine for most everyday loads and is pretty much the equivalent of the old school DWs and how they worked.
- The dishwasher runs balls-out for 40 minutes so it's noisier. (Bosch sells a lot of units on its reputation of being ultra quiet)
- Manual mode doesn't check the soil sensor while washing.
- There is no drying cycle, which is the bulk of a two hour wash.
So if you're okay with that, Manual works just fine for most everyday loads and is pretty much the equivalent of the old school DWs and how they worked.
After going through 3 typical dishwashers in less than that many years, I decided to try a high end one to see if was any different. I researched and Bosch and Miele seemed to be rated high for reliability. I picked Miele 5 years ago and damn, this thing is a tank. I do 2 loads a day and it cleans as well as the first day I bought it still.
Not sure what failure modes other folks encounter, but the pumps on my LG, whirlpool and Samsung all died <1yr. Not only that, none of them actually cleaned after the first week or so, instead they just did a poor rinse job and then baked whatever residue was still there onto the dish surface.
Don't know about dishwashers. But I recently tried to repair a washing machine from LG and in the process learned that Miele machines are considered to be very reliable and fixable.
[deleted]
Faster times would be good.
I feel like dishes still being dirty has other factors involved. Many people (my wife) load the dishwasher in an ineffective way. At least for my model, most of the cleaning comes from the center spray arm. Load bowls on the bottom rack and you'll end up full of water or not cleaned. Load the pot like standing up on the bottom rack and the arm will hit it and stuff will not get clean (and you might break the arm). Prewash your dishes and the turbidity sensor won't work right and you'll be left with either dirt or detergent on your dishes. And don't get me started on the unrelated topics of loading in wooden utensil, sharp knives, etc.
Load it right and put it on the right settings and they get clean (and out of frustration my wife will accuse me of prewashing to get them clean). It's not as simple as just piling in the dishes, like some people think it is.
I feel like dishes still being dirty has other factors involved. Many people (my wife) load the dishwasher in an ineffective way. At least for my model, most of the cleaning comes from the center spray arm. Load bowls on the bottom rack and you'll end up full of water or not cleaned. Load the pot like standing up on the bottom rack and the arm will hit it and stuff will not get clean (and you might break the arm). Prewash your dishes and the turbidity sensor won't work right and you'll be left with either dirt or detergent on your dishes. And don't get me started on the unrelated topics of loading in wooden utensil, sharp knives, etc.
Load it right and put it on the right settings and they get clean (and out of frustration my wife will accuse me of prewashing to get them clean). It's not as simple as just piling in the dishes, like some people think it is.
What a weird article.
For example: "And yes, it is crazy, if not also bad environmental public policy that the federal government regulates the robot in my kitchen that cleans and dries the dishes; and keeps changing the rules to the point that the machine first invented in 1886 no longer accomplishes its purpose."
For example: "And yes, it is crazy, if not also bad environmental public policy that the federal government regulates the robot in my kitchen that cleans and dries the dishes; and keeps changing the rules to the point that the machine first invented in 1886 no longer accomplishes its purpose."
Why is that weird? Not really weird. It might be wrong? Is that what you are saying?
I've used a dishwasher since the 1980's and in my eyes they have only gotten better. I find dishwashers to be one of the most amazing, labor saving and environmentally friendly advancements of modernity. I love dishwashers.
More specifically, with the earlier dishwashers I had to really scrub the dishes before I put them in. This is still important as I don't like getting leftover cat food on my coffee mugs, but the extent I have to do it is significantly less. Nowadays I scrape my plates into the trash and just put them in the dishwasher. Whereas for the first dishwasher my parents had in the 1980's you really had to scrub dishes clean before loading them.
They've only gotten better in my experience. I really don't understand what this article is complaining about?
More specifically, with the earlier dishwashers I had to really scrub the dishes before I put them in. This is still important as I don't like getting leftover cat food on my coffee mugs, but the extent I have to do it is significantly less. Nowadays I scrape my plates into the trash and just put them in the dishwasher. Whereas for the first dishwasher my parents had in the 1980's you really had to scrub dishes clean before loading them.
They've only gotten better in my experience. I really don't understand what this article is complaining about?
I have a new dish washer and it works very well of you don't block the jets from the detergent pocket. However, it takes so long that I have determined that its not practical. I just wash by hand. Wondered WTF people were thinking with it taking so long.
It's a GE which has a food grinder in it. Very quiet.
It's a GE which has a food grinder in it. Very quiet.
Sure, the dishwasher takes a few hours, but it's rare I'm ever actually waiting on it. Load over the day, run in the evening after dinner, clean dishes ready to unload either right before bed or in the morning. The loading/unloading is much faster and easier than actually washing by hand, and it's more efficient than what I'd do by hand.
Does it have express wash? I have an issue due to low-ish water pressure upstairs and quite salty water from the softener where I need an extra rinse so I do an express main wash frequently.. Still clean dishes.
I just want my dishes to come out of my dishwasher without smelling like wet dog.
We are combating this by only using vinegar in the rinse aid reservoir and dumping 2 cups in the bottom after unloading.
At $1.50/gallon for vinegar its not a cost issue just a "why does it have to be like this" issue.
We clean our filter monthly, too.
We are combating this by only using vinegar in the rinse aid reservoir and dumping 2 cups in the bottom after unloading.
At $1.50/gallon for vinegar its not a cost issue just a "why does it have to be like this" issue.
We clean our filter monthly, too.
That’s a bizarre problem. What do you think is causing it?
Some kind of bacteria. We even bought a new Bosch thinking an upgrade might fix it.
Are you on well water that has bacteria in it or something? What about running a cycle with a bunch of bleach to kill off everything?
Maybe eggs? I used to have a smell problem with our dishes off and on, and I think it might been correlated with raw eggs being on something in the load. My wife always claimed not to be able to smell the problem though.
This whole article reminds me of the absolute nonsense surrounding the EU regulating vacuum cleaner power levels. In the UK, it was not uncommon to see vacuum cleaners rated as high as 2400w (!) prior to the introduction of the regulation. Of course, when the regulation came to power those rock bottom crappy cheap vacuums one could buy suddenly got much worse as they were forced to limit power usage to 1kW. Well, as far as I can tell, most any vacuum cleaner today at virtually any price range does a reasonably decent job on 800w or less, and the regulation was a huge success in preventing ludicrous inefficient designs from finding their way to market.
I bring this up because this was actually a talking point during Brexit, and the excitement that Finally! Brits would be able to buy good vacuum cleaners again now they'd left that pesky EU. I've got no idea of the status of that particular regulation today, but I know that I haven't heard a single person mention it since the days of the Brexit vote.
Power ratings don't correspond to performance if the world irrationally decides that higher power means better. If the low end landlord special dishwashers can't make do on 1500w, then perhaps they just shouldn't exist. My landlord special cheapo dishwasher here in Canada however does a completely fine job using the cheapest powder I can get at the supermarket, as long as I load it properly, and haven't absolutely burnt the shit out of something in a pan.
I bring this up because this was actually a talking point during Brexit, and the excitement that Finally! Brits would be able to buy good vacuum cleaners again now they'd left that pesky EU. I've got no idea of the status of that particular regulation today, but I know that I haven't heard a single person mention it since the days of the Brexit vote.
Power ratings don't correspond to performance if the world irrationally decides that higher power means better. If the low end landlord special dishwashers can't make do on 1500w, then perhaps they just shouldn't exist. My landlord special cheapo dishwasher here in Canada however does a completely fine job using the cheapest powder I can get at the supermarket, as long as I load it properly, and haven't absolutely burnt the shit out of something in a pan.
…and if your dishwasher door squeaks you can fix it like this:
https://youtu.be/r_9AkGSj3FQ?si=jj0iB-pTYC5GZmSZ
Here's a squeaky dishwasher door inside the most expensive ($250 million) and highest penthouse in the world (video at 8:40):
https://youtu.be/aN9DH_GxqEo?feature=shared&t=521
Now that's comedy!
https://youtu.be/r_9AkGSj3FQ?si=jj0iB-pTYC5GZmSZ
Here's a squeaky dishwasher door inside the most expensive ($250 million) and highest penthouse in the world (video at 8:40):
https://youtu.be/aN9DH_GxqEo?feature=shared&t=521
Now that's comedy!
Many commercial dishwashers run only 15 minutes and the dishes come out sparkling clean. Same with cloths washers, commercial units have small, medium and large settings with hot, warm, cold and that's all you need. They actual use more than a gallon of water but your cloths come out clean in 25 minutes. It's insane what has happened to residential household appliances. The only alternative is to spend the extra and by a low end commercial unit.
Commercial dishwashers depend on all the food being scraped off before they get fed. I know because I was the "dishwasher" in my school, and that's how I paid for my lunch. My job was to scrape off all the food and get the dishes visually clean, at which point I would load them into the tray and put the trays into the commercial dishwasher.
The point of the commercial dishwasher is really to get the water super hot (steam, actually), and then sanitize the dishes after they've been cleaned.
The point of the commercial dishwasher is really to get the water super hot (steam, actually), and then sanitize the dishes after they've been cleaned.
Commercial dishwashers make different trade-offs. Eg they typically assume that you wash directly after eating. Domestic dishwashers deal with food that has been dried up and caked on for days.
Many domestic dishwashers spend a lot of time at the end drying your dishes. Commercial ones seldom bother with that.
Many domestic dishwashers spend a lot of time at the end drying your dishes. Commercial ones seldom bother with that.
My understanding was that the regulations applied to a normal wash cycle, but that they don't prevent dishwashers from having additional modes that use more water/energy for a faster clean.
My Bosch dishwasher is only a few years old. On normal mode, it takes 2 hours and 20 minutes. However it has a "Vario Speed" option which uses more water/energy, but performs the same clean in about an hour.
We rarely use Vario Speed. The dishwasher gets stacked after dinner and set on a timer so that it runs overnight. But the option for a fast wash is much appreciated.
One thing I'll say about wash quality is that the detergent matters. In Australia you can check out Choice's list [1]. We did find the Aldi Logix Platinum ones to be pretty good.
https://www.choice.com.au/home-and-living/kitchen/dishwasher...
My Bosch dishwasher is only a few years old. On normal mode, it takes 2 hours and 20 minutes. However it has a "Vario Speed" option which uses more water/energy, but performs the same clean in about an hour.
We rarely use Vario Speed. The dishwasher gets stacked after dinner and set on a timer so that it runs overnight. But the option for a fast wash is much appreciated.
One thing I'll say about wash quality is that the detergent matters. In Australia you can check out Choice's list [1]. We did find the Aldi Logix Platinum ones to be pretty good.
https://www.choice.com.au/home-and-living/kitchen/dishwasher...
Anyone know of a dishwasher with serviceable sprayers?
The one I have now the sprayers are single piece and cleaning them out is a real task. One of them I ended up splitting open and have modified with threaded inserts to be able to reassemble it.
I have a dishwasher that seems to work fine, except that after it's done it's still filled with soap bubbles. The water has drained, but not the soap. Dishwasher repair person looked at it, suggested replacing the motor, but that didn't work. The repair person even called the manufacturer, but the manufacturer didn't know what was wrong either.
I have no idea what the problem is ... for now, I've been washing in the sink and drying with a dish dryer from Japan (shokki kansouki).
I have no idea what the problem is ... for now, I've been washing in the sink and drying with a dish dryer from Japan (shokki kansouki).
Sounds like the soap is reacting with your water in a weird way.
Possibly. I should also note that the problem started happening after about 4 years of usage. I live in a hard water area, but use a water softener.
Maybe what you said is a clue, though, and I’ll see if I can find any information phrased in terms of soap reacting with water. Different variations of “soap doesn’t drain” hasn’t found me any hits, like I’m the only one having this issue.
Maybe what you said is a clue, though, and I’ll see if I can find any information phrased in terms of soap reacting with water. Different variations of “soap doesn’t drain” hasn’t found me any hits, like I’m the only one having this issue.
I once lived in a condo with a crappy Ikea dishwasher.
It did a poor job washing the dishes, made lots of noise, and the arm kept falling off.
The fix for the poor washing was so simple: buy cheap Costco dish pods in bulk for CAD 10 (12-13 now) for around 100 pods and just jam two pods in there. Add rinse-aid and voila, sparkling dishes from cheap equipment.
I once had a job as a commercial dishwasher, and those machines did the same thing in about a single minute. Of course the chemicals were harsh and the temperature was high.
It did a poor job washing the dishes, made lots of noise, and the arm kept falling off.
The fix for the poor washing was so simple: buy cheap Costco dish pods in bulk for CAD 10 (12-13 now) for around 100 pods and just jam two pods in there. Add rinse-aid and voila, sparkling dishes from cheap equipment.
I once had a job as a commercial dishwasher, and those machines did the same thing in about a single minute. Of course the chemicals were harsh and the temperature was high.
This is painfully whiny.
Look, the government has to regulate things and it's sometimes going to be clumsy. If this particular thing bothers you, that's fine. But it's childish to use the tone of "the gubment hates mah freedom" here - ESPECIALLY for us, in a time where more regulation of e.g. tech and cybersecurity would likely be a good thing.
Look, the government has to regulate things and it's sometimes going to be clumsy. If this particular thing bothers you, that's fine. But it's childish to use the tone of "the gubment hates mah freedom" here - ESPECIALLY for us, in a time where more regulation of e.g. tech and cybersecurity would likely be a good thing.
This is simply the American take on dishwashers. It should be done in 5 minutes, make no noise, be enormous in size, and I'll load it up with 2 items multiple times per day. Energy use be damned.
My dishes already stink after going through the dish washer whenever I had food with eggs on plates or pans. Adding sodium bicarbonate to the detergent compartment seems to do the trick though.
Not sure how relevant the energy consumption piece is if you just hook it up to the hot water instead of cold? That's what you're supposed to do anyway to get it to actually clean something, right?
AFAIK dishwashers all internally heat the water. The machines tell you to hook up to the hot line in the US (I've heard they say to use the cold line in Europe but I don't live there), but the chance of actually getting hot water from your line is pretty minimal because they only fill for a few seconds at a time.
Very few models have a bit line feed in Europe.
Maybe because our how water systems are more various, so you can't just assume that's always hot on demand when you want it? If you need a heating element in the dishwasher anyway it's not much of a feature.
Maybe because our how water systems are more various, so you can't just assume that's always hot on demand when you want it? If you need a heating element in the dishwasher anyway it's not much of a feature.
And 240V gives you a lot more power to heat water at point of use. You're not just heating the water, but several kg of ceramics inside.
But I still don't get it: as dishwashers are usually in the kitchen, isn't a hot water line just as far away as a cold water line?
Or is the concern that there are more "on-demand" hot water heaters and a simultaneous shower might max them out?
But I still don't get it: as dishwashers are usually in the kitchen, isn't a hot water line just as far away as a cold water line?
Or is the concern that there are more "on-demand" hot water heaters and a simultaneous shower might max them out?
I think it's: 1) might not be on-demand, so then your hot fill might not be hot at the right time; 2) if it is hot, it will almost certainly be <70C, which is typically the max cycle temp.. so you either can't have that or still need a local element to get it there; 3) even if it's hot enough, you also need cold fill, so you can mix and get the temperature(s) you need.
Frankly I think even with some assumptions about your market to ignore 1 & 2, 3 alone makes it more complex than just taking a cold fill and heating to temp within the dishwasher. I believe the very few models that do have a hot fill do it on an eco basis (you already have hot water use it here too) but the validity of that is disputed, and really the only obvious benefit is to the EPC sticker (characterising energy performance) which will appear best in class (the class of all dishwashers) just by not having a multiple kW heater, not accounting for that having been offloaded to the boiler.
Frankly I think even with some assumptions about your market to ignore 1 & 2, 3 alone makes it more complex than just taking a cold fill and heating to temp within the dishwasher. I believe the very few models that do have a hot fill do it on an eco basis (you already have hot water use it here too) but the validity of that is disputed, and really the only obvious benefit is to the EPC sticker (characterising energy performance) which will appear best in class (the class of all dishwashers) just by not having a multiple kW heater, not accounting for that having been offloaded to the boiler.
> Or is the concern that there are more "on-demand" hot water heaters and a simultaneous shower might max them out?
People might also have a hot water tank, but only turn on that heater when people want to take a hot shower.
People might also have a hot water tank, but only turn on that heater when people want to take a hot shower.
It doesn’t really work that way unless you take verrrry short showers or turn it on hours before you need it.
How long is a short shower for you?
We turn our hot water tank on a few minutes before we want warm water for the shower. Most of the time we don't bother and shower cold, though.
We turn our hot water tank on a few minutes before we want warm water for the shower. Most of the time we don't bother and shower cold, though.
Just run the tap at the kitchen sink until the water gets as hot as possible, then start the dishwasher. It'll get nice hot water straight from the pipe that way!
This works well unless you have a tankless water heater. Those are very bad for any appliances that fill water in short bursts, because they only heat while the water is flowing and the water only flows for a short time.
Yeah I am a big fan of giant tank water heaters. You can even set them up to run at the time of day when energy costs are lowest, if you have variable pricing, and the hot water will stay hot for a day or two unless you use a lot. Often energy prices will be lowest on the weekend which works great if you time your laundry cycles on those days!
You can also get small tanked or tankless water heaters that fit under your kitchen cabinet, and can help provide that hot water to your dishwasher. Which is especially important if your hot water heater is located far away from the kitchen and it would take a long time for actual hot water to arrive at your sink.
I would recommend that you look at them closely and get the one that fits your use case the best.
CR can also help here, because they will test them independently of the dishwasher.
I would recommend that you look at them closely and get the one that fits your use case the best.
CR can also help here, because they will test them independently of the dishwasher.
Doesn't it fill several times, with long periods of time in between? If so, this trick (which I do use, personally, in spite of this criticism) only benefits the first of several fills. Better than none, though.
According to the Technology Connections video (linked several times in this discussion, including by me), dishwashers usually use their internal heating element to heat the water during the main cycle. The reason for running the tap is just to make sure the water is hot during the prewash cycle, since the dishwasher does not use its heater for that one (since the time is so short)
Or worse, if you consider the wasted water
Amazing how much taxpayer money is spent on the minutiae of dishwasher temperature and duration. You'd think the behemoth that is the Federal government had more important stuff to worry about.
NEVER allow dishes in the dishwasher that haven't been wiped off, in any way you choose, into the garbage. (un-wiped dishes allow the food particles into your kitchen drain line where it will congeal. Over time it will trap water and rot out copper drain lines found in older homes.)
Garbage disposals are nick named "plumbers gold" for the same reason above. Only use them to flush water down the sink drain before running the dishwasher, NOT for dicing up what comes off dirty plates.
The kitchen drain line most likely runs below your living room floor in the concrete slab. It is very costly to have the carpet/tile removed and the slab sawed up to replace the line, usually with PVC.
Garbage disposals are nick named "plumbers gold" for the same reason above. Only use them to flush water down the sink drain before running the dishwasher, NOT for dicing up what comes off dirty plates.
The kitchen drain line most likely runs below your living room floor in the concrete slab. It is very costly to have the carpet/tile removed and the slab sawed up to replace the line, usually with PVC.
My Bosch dishwasher works well on the 1 hour Speed 60 cycle. The occasional fork or knife that is left with a little debris is not worth the trouble to use the 2:30 cycle
> modern dishwashers don’t clean dishes or cutlery well. Such is not surprising when hand dishwashing relies largely on physical scrubbing to remove food particles, the machine version relies on spraying hot water and heat, such that less water and less heat produce less cleaning over a longer period of time.
That isn't my experience at all. Modern dishwashers are a miracle; I put in dishes without touching them, and they come out clean. Also, the dishwashers use three forms forms of energy to separate dirt from surfaces: 'Kinetic' (the water), chemical (soap), heat (which of course catalyzes chemistry).
A lot of this article is just partisan stuff: Competitive Enterprise Institute, anti-regulation rants, "environmental zealots", etc., and of course 'Great Again'.
That isn't my experience at all. Modern dishwashers are a miracle; I put in dishes without touching them, and they come out clean. Also, the dishwashers use three forms forms of energy to separate dirt from surfaces: 'Kinetic' (the water), chemical (soap), heat (which of course catalyzes chemistry).
A lot of this article is just partisan stuff: Competitive Enterprise Institute, anti-regulation rants, "environmental zealots", etc., and of course 'Great Again'.
A long time ago I took a cooking class, in a commercial kitchen. The Hobart washer took five minutes.
Of course, it was bigger than a VW Beetle. Not exactly something for home use.
Of course, it was bigger than a VW Beetle. Not exactly something for home use.
It boggles my mind that the federal government of the United States pays bureaucrats to write non-safety-related standards for home appliances (or anything else).
Appliances use a significant amount of resources. It’s a bit tricky to attribute gains to standards versus general technological progress and consumers being more aware of issues like climate change but the amount of energy saved by increased efficiency in appliances is significant.
https://www.aceee.org/blog/2016/01/amazing-drop-home-applian... https://www.vox.com/climate/2023/3/29/23588463/carter-effici...
https://www.aceee.org/blog/2016/01/amazing-drop-home-applian... https://www.vox.com/climate/2023/3/29/23588463/carter-effici...
Yea, it’s weird. There's a whole segment of our population who strongly believe that only the government can fix problems, and that they they know which problems to fix and what the best solutions are. I’ll let you guess which political party they belong to.
Pure capitalism leaves no incentive to protect the environment.
Well, I lick most of my plates clean, our small washer takes 3 and a half hours and everything is cleaned just fine. EU citizen here :)
This thread is super interesting for me as a Mexican. I've never understood dishwashers: expensive machines you buy to wash dishes you've already had to wash in the sink.
I pay a "human" dishwasher $20 dollars a day and she washes the dishes completely, dries them, puts them out, wahes and sorts clothing, mops and vacuums the floor, washes toilets and the backyard with the dogs' dirt.
The wonders of cheap labour I guess
I pay a "human" dishwasher $20 dollars a day and she washes the dishes completely, dries them, puts them out, wahes and sorts clothing, mops and vacuums the floor, washes toilets and the backyard with the dogs' dirt.
The wonders of cheap labour I guess
So after 30 days, you've spent more money than someone with a lower cost dishwasher, and as the article mentions, your dishes haven't been sanitized and had allergens removed. You've also used a lot more water. Yes, you have to put away the dishes yourself, but that still seems like a pretty good trade to me.
I rented a few places that had dishwashers and boy did they vary. Good to read that I'm not completely crazy!
My anecdata:
- whirlpool gold with macerator (pre-2012!), absolute destroyer of any and all food waste.
- bosch (2010esque), no macerator, but great cleaner
- samsung (2015) might as well call it dish unwasher, made a nice drying rack
- kitchenaid (mid-2010s) generally great, filter thing sucks (have to keep it washed) and no macerator makes it get a little dirty, but dishes are clean.
If you can even get it, the macerator seems like the way to go for brainless rinse free dish washing. I imagine it's not offered anymore or something under the guise of energy saving.
My galpal has a frigidaire from early 2000s that is so loud it sounds like it is grinding the plates into dust. They come out squeaky clean and so hot you can't touch anything for the first 10 minutes after a cycle.
Dishwashers are excellent time saver, bring on the innovation!
My anecdata:
- whirlpool gold with macerator (pre-2012!), absolute destroyer of any and all food waste.
- bosch (2010esque), no macerator, but great cleaner
- samsung (2015) might as well call it dish unwasher, made a nice drying rack
- kitchenaid (mid-2010s) generally great, filter thing sucks (have to keep it washed) and no macerator makes it get a little dirty, but dishes are clean.
If you can even get it, the macerator seems like the way to go for brainless rinse free dish washing. I imagine it's not offered anymore or something under the guise of energy saving.
My galpal has a frigidaire from early 2000s that is so loud it sounds like it is grinding the plates into dust. They come out squeaky clean and so hot you can't touch anything for the first 10 minutes after a cycle.
Dishwashers are excellent time saver, bring on the innovation!
I think Bosch makes the best dishwasher money can buy right now.
The Biden administration reversed this liberalization in 2022, and is now trying to make it tighter than it was pre-Trump.
"The efficiency levels proposed in today’s rule reflect that there are models available today that can meet improved energy and water standards, while providing the cleaning performance that consumers expect from their dishwashers. The new proposal builds upon the groundwork laid by DOE’s test procedure final rule that was published on January 18, 2023, which ensures consumer expectations for cleaning continue to be met with increased energy and water efficiency.
"If adopted within DOE’s proposed timeframe, the new rule for dishwashers will come into effect in 2027. DOE expects the new rule to save consumers nearly $3 billion in utility bill savings over the ensuing 30 years of shipments and reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 12.5 million metric tons—an amount roughly equivalent to the combined annual emissions of 1.6 million homes. DOE also expects the new rule to save 240 billion gallons of water, which is equivalent to the water in 360,000 Olympic-sized pools."
https://www.energy.gov/articles/doe-announces-efficiency-rul...
----
From 2022:
"The Biden administration this week reversed a Trump-era rule exempting quick dishwashers, as well as clothes washers and dryers, from efficiency regulations.
"A rule issued Wednesday cuts two Trump rules that created separate product categories for dishwashers that took 60 minutes or fewer per cycle, certain clothes washers or dryers that took less than 30 minutes and other washers that took less than 45 minutes."
https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/589555-biden-n...
"The efficiency levels proposed in today’s rule reflect that there are models available today that can meet improved energy and water standards, while providing the cleaning performance that consumers expect from their dishwashers. The new proposal builds upon the groundwork laid by DOE’s test procedure final rule that was published on January 18, 2023, which ensures consumer expectations for cleaning continue to be met with increased energy and water efficiency.
"If adopted within DOE’s proposed timeframe, the new rule for dishwashers will come into effect in 2027. DOE expects the new rule to save consumers nearly $3 billion in utility bill savings over the ensuing 30 years of shipments and reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 12.5 million metric tons—an amount roughly equivalent to the combined annual emissions of 1.6 million homes. DOE also expects the new rule to save 240 billion gallons of water, which is equivalent to the water in 360,000 Olympic-sized pools."
https://www.energy.gov/articles/doe-announces-efficiency-rul...
----
From 2022:
"The Biden administration this week reversed a Trump-era rule exempting quick dishwashers, as well as clothes washers and dryers, from efficiency regulations.
"A rule issued Wednesday cuts two Trump rules that created separate product categories for dishwashers that took 60 minutes or fewer per cycle, certain clothes washers or dryers that took less than 30 minutes and other washers that took less than 45 minutes."
https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/589555-biden-n...
Biden is undoing this: https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/regulation/bidens....
In addition to adding regulations to our refrigerators, washing machines, stoves, etc. etc.
In addition to adding regulations to our refrigerators, washing machines, stoves, etc. etc.
> Biden is undoing this: https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/regulation/bidens...
I had not heard of the IER, and so looked them up:
> The Institute for Energy Research (IER) is a Washington, D.C.-based non-profit organization that, according to itself, conducts research and analysis on the functions, operations, and government regulation of global energy markets.[1] IER maintains that the free market provides the most "efficient and effective solutions" to "global energy and environmental challenges".[1]
> IER is often described as a front group for the fossil fuel industry.[2][3][4] It was initially formed by Charles Koch, receives donations from many large companies like Exxon, and publishes a stream of reports and position papers opposing any efforts to control greenhouse gasses. Thomas Pyle, president of the IER and its offshoot American Energy Alliance (AEA), was appointed to the US Department of Energy's transition team after the 2016 United States elections.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Energy_Research
I had not heard of the IER, and so looked them up:
> The Institute for Energy Research (IER) is a Washington, D.C.-based non-profit organization that, according to itself, conducts research and analysis on the functions, operations, and government regulation of global energy markets.[1] IER maintains that the free market provides the most "efficient and effective solutions" to "global energy and environmental challenges".[1]
> IER is often described as a front group for the fossil fuel industry.[2][3][4] It was initially formed by Charles Koch, receives donations from many large companies like Exxon, and publishes a stream of reports and position papers opposing any efforts to control greenhouse gasses. Thomas Pyle, president of the IER and its offshoot American Energy Alliance (AEA), was appointed to the US Department of Energy's transition team after the 2016 United States elections.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Energy_Research
How does that refute what I said?
"Institute for Energy Research" aka "research ways to sell people more ~~energy~~ oil." A massive chunk of their donations come from Exxon who are very well known now to flood the information market with low-quality "science" to push their own agendas even if they know their agendas are not good.
You ever think a research group owned by Koch and Exxon are ever going to find that one should burn less fossil fuels? You think Coca Cola is ever going to tell you to stop drinking Coke? Given the fact they're massively biased on the subjects, shouldn't you then probably take their "studies" with at least 5 tons of salt?
I mean, c'mon now, they say stupid stuff like this:
> Since paper plates and plastic utensils are not eligible for government food assistance programs, the proposed standard will hit the poor especially hard.
Yeah, that's right, lets just slip in the idea of putting in some kind of government assistance to go buy disposable plastic right in this article. Who would stand to gain? Huh, Koch, the Koch family, Exxon, you know, their list of sponsors, etc. Its crazy to me how openly brazen and hostile they are with this logic.
Then they say stuff like:
> Manufacturers have warned reducing water and power in dishwashers has become increasingly difficult without impacting performance
But at the same time mention:
> While most dishwashers on the market meet the Energy Star Standard of 3.5 gallons per cycle
So we're already meeting half the standard and yet they act like its impossible to be at the point we're already at.
I don't personally care too much about these rules, but this article is a bunch of nonsense.
Even from their economic side of hurting consumers, they openly state it'll save >$600M in costs while only costing $125M to implement. So they're arguing against saving almost $500M in energy and water costs for consumers, not arguing that things will ultimately cost more. This article written by the energy industry is literally trying to convince us we should spend $500M in extra energy costs, and you're eating it right up.
If that whole $125M was done in just the first year of dishwashers sold in only the US market it increases the price of a several hundred dollar appliance by $15. Just the water saving costs alone is estimated at $30/unit, then an additional $7+/year in energy savings. If the thing only lives 5 years (dismal outlook, but lets use it) its saving consumers $65, 65 - 15 = a positive number, aka it will save consumers money, even if they're poor.
You ever think a research group owned by Koch and Exxon are ever going to find that one should burn less fossil fuels? You think Coca Cola is ever going to tell you to stop drinking Coke? Given the fact they're massively biased on the subjects, shouldn't you then probably take their "studies" with at least 5 tons of salt?
I mean, c'mon now, they say stupid stuff like this:
> Since paper plates and plastic utensils are not eligible for government food assistance programs, the proposed standard will hit the poor especially hard.
Yeah, that's right, lets just slip in the idea of putting in some kind of government assistance to go buy disposable plastic right in this article. Who would stand to gain? Huh, Koch, the Koch family, Exxon, you know, their list of sponsors, etc. Its crazy to me how openly brazen and hostile they are with this logic.
Then they say stuff like:
> Manufacturers have warned reducing water and power in dishwashers has become increasingly difficult without impacting performance
But at the same time mention:
> While most dishwashers on the market meet the Energy Star Standard of 3.5 gallons per cycle
So we're already meeting half the standard and yet they act like its impossible to be at the point we're already at.
I don't personally care too much about these rules, but this article is a bunch of nonsense.
Even from their economic side of hurting consumers, they openly state it'll save >$600M in costs while only costing $125M to implement. So they're arguing against saving almost $500M in energy and water costs for consumers, not arguing that things will ultimately cost more. This article written by the energy industry is literally trying to convince us we should spend $500M in extra energy costs, and you're eating it right up.
If that whole $125M was done in just the first year of dishwashers sold in only the US market it increases the price of a several hundred dollar appliance by $15. Just the water saving costs alone is estimated at $30/unit, then an additional $7+/year in energy savings. If the thing only lives 5 years (dismal outlook, but lets use it) its saving consumers $65, 65 - 15 = a positive number, aka it will save consumers money, even if they're poor.
This was a Trump rollback of environment rules to please conservative nutjobs. Can we stop posting these here?
Only 'conservative nutjobs' appreciate dishwashers that can actually clean dishes as well as they did in the 1980s.
Did the euro brands like Bosch and Miele ever do a bad job? From what I've read, they've been consistently good over the decades.
The myth that a dishwasher is more efficient than handwashing is perhaps the biggest hoodwink perpetrated on the millennial consumer.
You haven't seen the shit I throw in my dishwasher every few nights. Seriously. It is jam-fucking-packed to the gills with the nastiest, filthiest, greasiest crap you can imagine. That it uses only a few litres of water to clean it is a miracle in itself, not to mention the countless hours it's saved me from scrubbing.
In my house, the dishwasher is orders of magnitudes more efficient than hand-washing.
In my house, the dishwasher is orders of magnitudes more efficient than hand-washing.
Yeah, you honestly don't even need worry about anything besides the labor efficiency, because that alone is already a big deal. I guess some people just forget that labor saving devices were invented to save labor. Maybe they re-use the same dish over and over, don't bake, and don't cook with any fats or something.
Interesting. In my house handwashing is orders of magnitude more efficient than using a dishwasher. I guess on average neither is more efficient.
The average person uses 4X as much hot water hand washing a full load of dishes compared to a dishwasher. A modern dishwasher uses 3-5 gallons of water per load. Do you use less than a quarter sink worth of water to wash a full dishwasher load of dishes, including rinsing? It's possible, but not easy.
The major concern with water is hot water use, as that adds a tremendously greater amount of energy to the equation. A typical sink or tub holds ~2--5 gallons filled to the brim, which is rare when dishwashing (1/2 to 3/4 fill is more typical, particularly accounting for displacement by dishes.
Rinsing is done with cold water. Options are to fill a second tub (or refill the washing tub after the suds-based wash), passing items under the tap, or using a sprayer hose (the most effective and efficient option in my experience). Total water use is typically less than that used for washing itself.
With dishwashers, it's rare that I don't have to further rinse or clean items, so the nominal usage is understating actual usage.
Rinsing is done with cold water. Options are to fill a second tub (or refill the washing tub after the suds-based wash), passing items under the tap, or using a sprayer hose (the most effective and efficient option in my experience). Total water use is typically less than that used for washing itself.
With dishwashers, it's rare that I don't have to further rinse or clean items, so the nominal usage is understating actual usage.
> With dishwashers, it's rare that I don't have to further rinse or clean items
Even when they do, I just leave them for the next cycle. Unless the next cycle was already going to be at capacity, the added water/energy use for re-washing is minimal.
Even when they do, I just leave them for the next cycle. Unless the next cycle was already going to be at capacity, the added water/energy use for re-washing is minimal.
For me, normally if something didn't get cleaned well it is because the dish either wasn't loaded quite right or it moved in the wash cycle. That improper positioning then preventing the sprayers from really hitting the dirty spots very well.
When hand-washing, it's possible to examine the dish or utensil, and scrub harder, let soak, or give a special treatment such as baking soda (tea and coffee stains), ammonia (heavy baked-on grease), oxalic acid ("Barkeeper's Friend") to polish copper or remove some forms of burn, scouring pads (typically plastic, copper or steel wool, may include soap or other chemicals for treating hard-to-remove foods, such as S.O.S or Brillo pads). Dishwashing machine detergent is another option (a little goes a long way, though as the detergent itself dissolves poorly, it's necessary to spread and/or circulate it over dishes where used). Vinegar + baking soda paste is useful for baked-on grease. Chlorine bleach may be used to remove some organic stains or disinfect where needed (this last is rare in my experience), though it should not be combined with ammonia-based products.
Knowing what cleaning treatments work and when they're appropriate is another bit of practical knowledge often lost. There's also knowledge of what chemicals not to use together
It's also possible to pre-soak specific items, either in the sink or by filling them (e.g., pots and pans) and letting them sit on the sink. Many people self-sabotage cleaning by failing to give the cleaning solution time to work, which can be a few seconds for light soiling to hours for chemical stains or baked-on stains.
The automatic dishwasher is also hard on the actual dishes and utensils, in my experience, and tends to pit or damage ceramics, glassware, and stainless-steel or aluminium utensils and pots.
And when washing a large number of items, ironically, filled basins to soap and rinse may use less water than multiple dishwasher loads. Though again, when the difference is measured in single-digit gallons (or up to around 20--40 litres), the overall efficiency savings largely pale against other household water usage (bathing, handwashing, laundry, other food prep, etc.).
Again, I see no reasonable basis for shaming those who prefer hand-washing. Cycle time and efficacy can be markedly better, total water and energy efficiency are comparable. Machine-washing is more consistent over larger populations (given equivalent equipment), though might degrade with age of the machine. It's mostly a ... wash.
Knowing what cleaning treatments work and when they're appropriate is another bit of practical knowledge often lost. There's also knowledge of what chemicals not to use together
It's also possible to pre-soak specific items, either in the sink or by filling them (e.g., pots and pans) and letting them sit on the sink. Many people self-sabotage cleaning by failing to give the cleaning solution time to work, which can be a few seconds for light soiling to hours for chemical stains or baked-on stains.
The automatic dishwasher is also hard on the actual dishes and utensils, in my experience, and tends to pit or damage ceramics, glassware, and stainless-steel or aluminium utensils and pots.
And when washing a large number of items, ironically, filled basins to soap and rinse may use less water than multiple dishwasher loads. Though again, when the difference is measured in single-digit gallons (or up to around 20--40 litres), the overall efficiency savings largely pale against other household water usage (bathing, handwashing, laundry, other food prep, etc.).
Again, I see no reasonable basis for shaming those who prefer hand-washing. Cycle time and efficacy can be markedly better, total water and energy efficiency are comparable. Machine-washing is more consistent over larger populations (given equivalent equipment), though might degrade with age of the machine. It's mostly a ... wash.
A 2.5-5gal sink (lets average it at 3.75gal) filled 3/4 of the way twice is 5.6gal (2.1825 * 2). My dishwasher uses 3.5gal for a larger load than what I'd like to do in a sink. 5.6 > 3.5.
The difference between the most efficient machine vs. hand-washing methodologies are really too small to matter. A gallon or so of water either, way, most especially if cold, isn't worth worrying about.
There are other sources of inefficiencies in using a dishwasher as I've noted above.
My point isn't to browbeat people into hand-washing dishes. Rather, it's to point out that there are real advantages to doing so, and if that's what you prefer you shouldn't beat yourself up over it on account of efficiency arguments.
A few years back I'd looked up the actual research on hand-washing vs. machine washing. The most-quoted study (where any study is quoted at all, rather than vague hand-waving) is from the University of Bonn, Germany:
"A European Comparison of Cleaning Dishes by Hand", Rainer STAMMINGER, Ricarda BADURA, Gereon BROIL, Susanne DÖRR, Anja ELSCHENBROICH. University of Bonn, Germany.
<https://web.archive.org/web/20150701173343/www.landtechnik-a...>
The upshot:
- Practices for hand-washing vary widely. Some are exceedingly efficient. Some are stupendously wasteful.
- There's a considerable variation by country, or by region of the US.
- The best hand-washing methods beat dishwashers. Many of the rest come close.
Among the most efficient hand-washers are Germans, Californians, and Australians. The latter two live in areas where water is chronically limited. The least efficient: Russians.
If you fill a sink basin or small dish bucket, you've got about 2 gallons of water accounted for (the most efficient dishwashers use at least 4, many use 6 or somewhat more). Rinsing may in another basin, or under the tap in the sink.
If you live in a multi-person household and can fill a dishwasher every day or so, and hate doing dishes, the dishwasher makes sense.
If you live alone or can't fill the dishwasher, or would be washing dishes anyway, hand-washing may be more effective.
Either way, so long as you're not performing the Russian method: hot water tap full on during the full period you're washing dishes, hand-wasing can be the most efficient water- and energy-wise.
And if you hate hand-washing, and have a dishwasher, then use it.
Neither side in this discussion should be browbeating the other
There are other sources of inefficiencies in using a dishwasher as I've noted above.
My point isn't to browbeat people into hand-washing dishes. Rather, it's to point out that there are real advantages to doing so, and if that's what you prefer you shouldn't beat yourself up over it on account of efficiency arguments.
A few years back I'd looked up the actual research on hand-washing vs. machine washing. The most-quoted study (where any study is quoted at all, rather than vague hand-waving) is from the University of Bonn, Germany:
"A European Comparison of Cleaning Dishes by Hand", Rainer STAMMINGER, Ricarda BADURA, Gereon BROIL, Susanne DÖRR, Anja ELSCHENBROICH. University of Bonn, Germany.
<https://web.archive.org/web/20150701173343/www.landtechnik-a...>
The upshot:
- Practices for hand-washing vary widely. Some are exceedingly efficient. Some are stupendously wasteful.
- There's a considerable variation by country, or by region of the US.
- The best hand-washing methods beat dishwashers. Many of the rest come close.
Among the most efficient hand-washers are Germans, Californians, and Australians. The latter two live in areas where water is chronically limited. The least efficient: Russians.
If you fill a sink basin or small dish bucket, you've got about 2 gallons of water accounted for (the most efficient dishwashers use at least 4, many use 6 or somewhat more). Rinsing may in another basin, or under the tap in the sink.
If you live in a multi-person household and can fill a dishwasher every day or so, and hate doing dishes, the dishwasher makes sense.
If you live alone or can't fill the dishwasher, or would be washing dishes anyway, hand-washing may be more effective.
Either way, so long as you're not performing the Russian method: hot water tap full on during the full period you're washing dishes, hand-wasing can be the most efficient water- and energy-wise.
And if you hate hand-washing, and have a dishwasher, then use it.
Neither side in this discussion should be browbeating the other
I do imagine there are some who truly are more efficient handwashing than using a dishwasher, but from your link:
> Additionally it was shown that new dishwashers are able to reach at least the same performance with significant less amount of water needed as any test person
Also, the chart shows the average water use for a lot of these countries is somewhere close to 100L of water. Even for the lows of Germany/GB the average is around 50L. 3.5gal is only ~13L of water. So by this document my dishwasher is 3.8x as efficient as the average German doing dishes and almost 8x more efficient as many other countries, but I do agree this study doesn't exactly have massive sample sizes and there's a massive range of variability.
I do generally agree though we're (usually) talking about somewhat insignificant amounts of water "wasted" either way. I use far more water for bathing, drinking/eating, and flushing throughout my day, and we're talking about a few hundred kWh of energy used over a year when my monthly usage is >1000kWh. In the end I agree, people should generally do what's comfortable for them, save for just letting the hot water run while doing a lot of dishes. But this idea that the average person handwashing dishes is radically more efficient just isn't reality, and most people would have to seriously try to be more water/energy efficient than most dishwashers on the market today.
The average person's techniques for washing dishes by hand just isn't as efficient as any modern dishwasher. That's probably fine, but also lets not ignore reality.
> Additionally it was shown that new dishwashers are able to reach at least the same performance with significant less amount of water needed as any test person
Also, the chart shows the average water use for a lot of these countries is somewhere close to 100L of water. Even for the lows of Germany/GB the average is around 50L. 3.5gal is only ~13L of water. So by this document my dishwasher is 3.8x as efficient as the average German doing dishes and almost 8x more efficient as many other countries, but I do agree this study doesn't exactly have massive sample sizes and there's a massive range of variability.
I do generally agree though we're (usually) talking about somewhat insignificant amounts of water "wasted" either way. I use far more water for bathing, drinking/eating, and flushing throughout my day, and we're talking about a few hundred kWh of energy used over a year when my monthly usage is >1000kWh. In the end I agree, people should generally do what's comfortable for them, save for just letting the hot water run while doing a lot of dishes. But this idea that the average person handwashing dishes is radically more efficient just isn't reality, and most people would have to seriously try to be more water/energy efficient than most dishwashers on the market today.
The average person's techniques for washing dishes by hand just isn't as efficient as any modern dishwasher. That's probably fine, but also lets not ignore reality.
Full load? That would take me about a week to generate. I'm not sure I have that many dishes
Again, what do you mean by "efficient"? I value my time over anything else, so for me handwashing is not efficient at all, unless it takes shorter than loading and unloading the machine.
Either your dishwasher isn't very good or you aren't using it properly. You should be using powder in both boxes so the prewash cycle and the main cycle can work [1]. Pods? Waste of money!
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04
I actually checked this, on the regular (2 hour) cycle my dishwasher just opens the main detergent dispenser immediately. I have no idea why.
The one hour cycle actually does a prewash.
The one hour cycle actually does a prewash.
> In my house handwashing is orders of magnitude more efficient than using a dishwasher.
Thank you for your n=1 study/survey.
I've seen more than one household run the kitchen faucet at 100% (1-2.2gpm/4-8Lpm) when washing dishes. EnergyStar mandates <20L for a normal cycle.
Thank you for your n=1 study/survey.
I've seen more than one household run the kitchen faucet at 100% (1-2.2gpm/4-8Lpm) when washing dishes. EnergyStar mandates <20L for a normal cycle.
How have you calculated the efficiency?
"Efficient" as in energy efficient, human time efficient, or efficient at preventing mold/bacteria etc.?
I suspect it is more efficient at creating germ-free clean dishes, given the temperatures and steam that the wares are exposed to.
I suspect it is quicker than human time than hand washing
It might be slower than human time from stopwatch dirty dish to clean dish.
It might use more water than a hand washer who is very careful with water.
It almost certainly costs more to use a dishwasher. Capital, costs, electricity, repairs, tabs.
I suspect it is more efficient at creating germ-free clean dishes, given the temperatures and steam that the wares are exposed to.
I suspect it is quicker than human time than hand washing
It might be slower than human time from stopwatch dirty dish to clean dish.
It might use more water than a hand washer who is very careful with water.
It almost certainly costs more to use a dishwasher. Capital, costs, electricity, repairs, tabs.
Mostly agreed.
> I suspect it is more efficient at creating germ-free clean dishes, given the temperatures and steam that the wares are exposed to.
Though you shouldn't worry too much about germs. The next time you are your food touches the dishes, they are all germed up again anyway.
The amount of germ removal you get from hand-washing dishes is sufficient.
(A dishwasher is still a good idea for saving on human labour.)
> I suspect it is more efficient at creating germ-free clean dishes, given the temperatures and steam that the wares are exposed to.
Though you shouldn't worry too much about germs. The next time you are your food touches the dishes, they are all germed up again anyway.
The amount of germ removal you get from hand-washing dishes is sufficient.
(A dishwasher is still a good idea for saving on human labour.)
Doing things I enjoy, versus standing at the sink doing dishes is a pretty big efficiency gain for me.
Citation needed...
Having grown up rurally on a limited water supply, I know you can do the dishes for a family of four in about 10L/2.5 gallons of water. You just have to scrape off all the solids first (four-legged helpers excel at this). If you want you can have a second small rinsing sink.
When I moved to a city I found a lot of people wash with running water or change at the first hint of it getting dirty.
However now I live in a city and have things to do, a dishwasher is great because no matter how long it takes I’m not doing the dishes.
When I moved to a city I found a lot of people wash with running water or change at the first hint of it getting dirty.
However now I live in a city and have things to do, a dishwasher is great because no matter how long it takes I’m not doing the dishes.
Ok, I'll agree that you CAN do it. However, outside of camping, I don't think I've ever seen someone actually do that. But, I'll concede that. My dishwasher uses 3.15 gallons on a normal wash cycle, which I don't feel too bad about.
[deleted]
Interesting, what do you mean by limited water supply? I grew up on pump water and it was unlimited. Hard as shit, but unlimited.
In New Zealand rural water supply is often rain water, so in the summer months where there's little rain you only have what's in the tank.
You can order water from a commercial water suppliers of course, but why pay extra if you can avoid it?
You can order water from a commercial water suppliers of course, but why pay extra if you can avoid it?
Interesting. Are there technical challenges with ground water or is it a legal challenge?
Technical. A lot of NZ is mountainous country with volcanic soil on top of impermeable clays, which means there's very little groundwater. Some of the alluvial areas have plentiful groundwater and they use wells, but the majority of rural areas just use rainwater. It's cheap and easy to collect.
That makes a lot of sense. I didn't think about the volcanic soils and their relation to ground water challenges. I imagine they might also get a good bit of rainfall often so that might make it even easier for rainfall collection. Thanks!
Some people don't have a great well, and you can't pull much water at any given time. Or in the rainy season it's great, and in the dry season it's not. Or you might rely on water supplied by a water truck, in which case, you're going to be real conservative, cause that's probably not cheap.
I can record myself doing my dishes by hand if that helps?
Chores.tv like and subscribe on twitch.
I'd watch a head-to-head with water consumption tracked. You can be the John Henry of our time.
You'll need to measure the amount of water you use in the process. Modern Energy Star-compliant models use less than 4 gallons per load. And don't forget to wash the same number of dishes as a full dishwasher load!
First, replace your pods with a box of powder detergent, then add some detergent to the prewash cup on your dishwasher in addition to the normal dispenser. If your dishwasher doesn't have one you can just put some on the door before you close the washer. This gives your dishwasher detergent to work with on two of its cycles rather than just one and in my experience it makes all the difference on really difficult dishes.
The pods are effectively identical to the powder detergent but at a huge cost premium and don't give you the ability to adjust your amount of detergent to match the water hardness in your area which can result in a film on your clean dishes.
for more info there is a great Technology Connections video covering it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04
Alternatively you can test this by just throwing an extra pod in the bottom of the dishwasher to start with. If it works well then you can consider switching to powder to save costs.