Huly – Open-source project management platform(github.com)
github.com
Huly – Open-source project management platform
https://github.com/hcengineering/platform
210 comments
Cheap, easy, powerful: choose any two.
- Cheap and easy: embed into one executable file SQLite, a KV store, a queue, and everything else. Trivial to self-host: download and run! But you're severely limited in the number of concurrent users, ways to back up the databases, visibility / monitoring. If a desktop-class solution is good for you, wonderful, but be aware of the limitations.
- Cheap and powerful: All open-source, built from well-known parts, requires several containers to run, e.g. databases, queues, web servers / proxies, build tools, etc. You get all the power, can scale an tweak to your heart's content while self-hosting. If you're not afraid to tackle all this, wonderful, but be aware of the breadth of the technical chops you'll need.
- Easy and powerful: the cloud. AWS / Azure / DO will manage things for you, providing redundancy, scaling, and very simple setup. You may even have some say in tuning specific components (that is, buying a more expensive tier for them). Beautiful, but it will cost you. If the cost is less than the value you get, wonderful. Be aware that you'll store your data on someone else's computers though.
There's no known (to me) way to obtain all three qualities.
- Cheap and easy: embed into one executable file SQLite, a KV store, a queue, and everything else. Trivial to self-host: download and run! But you're severely limited in the number of concurrent users, ways to back up the databases, visibility / monitoring. If a desktop-class solution is good for you, wonderful, but be aware of the limitations.
- Cheap and powerful: All open-source, built from well-known parts, requires several containers to run, e.g. databases, queues, web servers / proxies, build tools, etc. You get all the power, can scale an tweak to your heart's content while self-hosting. If you're not afraid to tackle all this, wonderful, but be aware of the breadth of the technical chops you'll need.
- Easy and powerful: the cloud. AWS / Azure / DO will manage things for you, providing redundancy, scaling, and very simple setup. You may even have some say in tuning specific components (that is, buying a more expensive tier for them). Beautiful, but it will cost you. If the cost is less than the value you get, wonderful. Be aware that you'll store your data on someone else's computers though.
There's no known (to me) way to obtain all three qualities.
> - Easy and powerful: the cloud. AWS / Azure / DO will manage things for you, providing redundancy, scaling, and very simple setup. You may even have some say in tuning specific components (that is, buying a more expensive tier for them). Beautiful, but it will cost you. If the cost is less than the value you get, wonderful. Be aware that you'll store your data on someone else's computers though.
Easy on the magic powder. Cloud vendors manage some stuff, they mostly abstract you the hardware and package management part, but that's about it. Hosting a postgresql DB on RDS instead of a VM somewhere or on bare metal doesn't change much. Sure redundancy and scaling is easyto setup. But you still have to stay up to date with the best practices, how to secure it through network, choose and set your backup policy, schedule when to upgrade, plan the potential downtimes, what is deprecated, what is new, when price will sky rocket up because AWS doesn't want many customers to still run that old version. Same applies to many individual tech sold as "managed" by cloud vendors.
A whole lot of admin overhead is not removed by running some individual tech as a managed service.
You only remove a significant part of the management when the whole stack of what comprises your user facing application is managed as a single entity but that comes with another problem. Those managed apps end up being very highly coveted targets by black hat hackers. All the customers over the world usually end up being pwnable at the same time thanks to the same bug/security hole being shared. It becomes a question of when, not if, your users accounts will become public data.
Easy on the magic powder. Cloud vendors manage some stuff, they mostly abstract you the hardware and package management part, but that's about it. Hosting a postgresql DB on RDS instead of a VM somewhere or on bare metal doesn't change much. Sure redundancy and scaling is easyto setup. But you still have to stay up to date with the best practices, how to secure it through network, choose and set your backup policy, schedule when to upgrade, plan the potential downtimes, what is deprecated, what is new, when price will sky rocket up because AWS doesn't want many customers to still run that old version. Same applies to many individual tech sold as "managed" by cloud vendors.
A whole lot of admin overhead is not removed by running some individual tech as a managed service.
You only remove a significant part of the management when the whole stack of what comprises your user facing application is managed as a single entity but that comes with another problem. Those managed apps end up being very highly coveted targets by black hat hackers. All the customers over the world usually end up being pwnable at the same time thanks to the same bug/security hole being shared. It becomes a question of when, not if, your users accounts will become public data.
> Cheap, easy, powerful: choose any two.
I don't think there's any reason the same codebase can't support different trade-offs here.
Maybe I'm just looking at the past through rose-coloured glasses, but it seems to me that was the norm before we standardized on distributing apps as an entire stack through a docker-compose.yml file.
Your app depends on redis for caching. If no redis instance is configured, go ahead and just instantiate a "null" caching implementation (and print a warning to the log if it makes you feel better) and carry on.
You're using minio for object storage. Is there any reason you couldn't, I don't know, use a local folder on disk instead?
Think of it as "progressive enhancement" for the ops stack. Let your app run simply in a small single node deploy, but support scaling up to something larger.
I don't think there's any reason the same codebase can't support different trade-offs here.
Maybe I'm just looking at the past through rose-coloured glasses, but it seems to me that was the norm before we standardized on distributing apps as an entire stack through a docker-compose.yml file.
Your app depends on redis for caching. If no redis instance is configured, go ahead and just instantiate a "null" caching implementation (and print a warning to the log if it makes you feel better) and carry on.
You're using minio for object storage. Is there any reason you couldn't, I don't know, use a local folder on disk instead?
Think of it as "progressive enhancement" for the ops stack. Let your app run simply in a small single node deploy, but support scaling up to something larger.
IMHO, redis is either used as a key value store (which can easily be replicated in application code) or as a central storage to synchronize tasks (like counters).
For the first case, dev should just build on SQLite or use application code. For the latter case, choose a single storage engine and use it for everything (Postgres?).
For the first case, dev should just build on SQLite or use application code. For the latter case, choose a single storage engine and use it for everything (Postgres?).
SQLite is actually substantially more capable than many people think it is. I have served 20k MAUs from a reasonably sized single node server with some headroom to spare. Yes, it requires some thinking about efficiency and not necessarily going with nodejs + some ORM, but you can take SQLite quite far, even in a small to medium enterprise
SQLite works well with 2k DAUs on a single node, even with Django's not particularly efficient ORM. You just have to be careful about what you really need to write to DB and what's okay to either not save at all, or just throw into a log file for later offline analysis.
I don't see how these guys can think about MAU/DAU to assess DB load and sizing without talking about the rest of the app/arch details. Wouldn't ops/time be more agnostic?
Agreed, number of active users cannot make sense as a generic unit across systems...
I have 2 systems where in the first (route optimization platform), 1 user would, as part of just a normal 10 minute session:
- read ~100MB from the database - utilize 100% of 32-core machine CPU (and 64GB of RAM) - resulting in thousands of writes to the database - and side-effect processing (analytics, webhooks etc)
Over a course of a day, it would likely be ~10x for that single user.
In the other system - appointment scheduling - 1 user would, in 1 day, read ~1MB of data from the database, and make 2-3 writes from a single action, with maybe 1 email triggered.
I have 2 systems where in the first (route optimization platform), 1 user would, as part of just a normal 10 minute session:
- read ~100MB from the database - utilize 100% of 32-core machine CPU (and 64GB of RAM) - resulting in thousands of writes to the database - and side-effect processing (analytics, webhooks etc)
Over a course of a day, it would likely be ~10x for that single user.
In the other system - appointment scheduling - 1 user would, in 1 day, read ~1MB of data from the database, and make 2-3 writes from a single action, with maybe 1 email triggered.
Can make sense if it's about loading and showing not-too-complicated data, but no intensive computations. Then you can compare roughly similar applications
Maybe they mean cases somewhat similar to the software this discussion is about.
I.e. load and show stuff from databases (but nothing compute intensive).
I.e. load and show stuff from databases (but nothing compute intensive).
SQLite has excellent read performance.
Insert / update performance is quite another story: https://stackoverflow.com/a/48480012 Even in WAL mode, one should remember to use BEGIN CONCURRENT and be ready to handle rollbacks and retries.
Insert / update performance is quite another story: https://stackoverflow.com/a/48480012 Even in WAL mode, one should remember to use BEGIN CONCURRENT and be ready to handle rollbacks and retries.
You can scale quite far using SQLite. That's what Basecamp is doing with their new self-hosted chat app, named ONCE Campfire. It is designed to scale to hundreds or even thousands of concurrent users with the right hardware: https://once.com/campfire.
I wonder why it needs 2Gb of RAM even for a low number of users though.
awesome, thank you for the information.
It still astounds me how hard software distribution is. We've had so many generations of solutions and paradigms that attempt to solve this problem (e.g. C, Unix, Java, Docker, etc) but the best we've come up with is client-server applications and the web. Yet it's still not trivial to host a reasonably "powerful" web application.
In theory, the components for a universal runtime are pretty apparent by now. Wouldn't it be wonderful if truly portable and end-user friendly cloud computing was a thing.
In theory, the components for a universal runtime are pretty apparent by now. Wouldn't it be wonderful if truly portable and end-user friendly cloud computing was a thing.
How big the organization has to be not to be able to deploy it on a big enough machine with SQLite?
How big is not the question. The question is how small: think self-hosting within a small non-profit or other such operation, on someone's aging ProLiant in a basement.
A big organization likely would just buy their hosted solution.
A big organization likely would just buy their hosted solution.
Size likely has nothing to do with it, while reliability is a much bigger concern.
If your business uses said tool for all client work, and it's hosted on a single server (be it physical or a VM), that is a SPoF. Any downtime and your business grinds to a halt because none of your project or customer information is accessible to anyone.
If your business uses said tool for all client work, and it's hosted on a single server (be it physical or a VM), that is a SPoF. Any downtime and your business grinds to a halt because none of your project or customer information is accessible to anyone.
Does everything need 99.99% availability?
It feels like you have to be a very big business for this to be a problem that is worth the extra engineering effort vs a single instance with an SQLite file that you backup externally with a cron job
It feels like you have to be a very big business for this to be a problem that is worth the extra engineering effort vs a single instance with an SQLite file that you backup externally with a cron job
Not availability but predictability.
Most stick trading systems and even many banking systems have availability like 40%, going offline outside business hours. But during these business hours they are 99.999999 available.
Usually operation without trouble is operation with plenty of resources to spare, and in absence if critical bugs.
Most stick trading systems and even many banking systems have availability like 40%, going offline outside business hours. But during these business hours they are 99.999999 available.
Usually operation without trouble is operation with plenty of resources to spare, and in absence if critical bugs.
> - Cheap and powerful: All open-source, built from well-known parts, requires several containers to run, e.g. databases, queues, web servers / proxies, build tools, etc. You get all the power, can scale an tweak to your heart's content while self-hosting. If you're not afraid to tackle all this, wonderful, but be aware of the breadth of the technical chops you'll need.
What about lowering the number of dependencies your application uses, like only depending on a database? Running a database isn't that hard, and it also greatly simplifies the overhead of running 5 different services.
What about lowering the number of dependencies your application uses, like only depending on a database? Running a database isn't that hard, and it also greatly simplifies the overhead of running 5 different services.
This works up to a point. Past a certain scale, running a database becomes hard(er), and you also start to need proxies, caches, load balancers, etc. to maintain performance.
I would agree, though, that many software installations never need to scale to that point. Perhaps most.
I would agree, though, that many software installations never need to scale to that point. Perhaps most.
At what point do you hit that scale with project management software, though? Maybe you can't get to the point where you're managing all projects across all of Walmart from the same instance, but certainly you can run pretty much anything of reasonable size.
sqlite can scale to thousands of concurrent users.
Personally for me the issue with all these new project management platforms is that the target demographic is either: - they're so small they can't afford to self-host - they're big enough they can afford the pro plans of more established tools
Small companies can get by perfectly with the free/cheap plans of other tools, like Trello+Google Workspace. Heck if you're a one-man team with occasional collaborators free Trello + Google Workspace (~$6/mo) is enough.
A box to provision the Huly stack might come out at more per month...
Personally for me the issue with all these new project management platforms is that the target demographic is either: - they're so small they can't afford to self-host - they're big enough they can afford the pro plans of more established tools
Small companies can get by perfectly with the free/cheap plans of other tools, like Trello+Google Workspace. Heck if you're a one-man team with occasional collaborators free Trello + Google Workspace (~$6/mo) is enough.
A box to provision the Huly stack might come out at more per month...
[deleted]
> But you're severely limited in the number of concurrent users
You can easily handle 100-200 concurrent active users on a decent CPU with SQLite, if you don't do anything crazy. And if you need a project management solution that needs more than that, you probably are not too concerned about the price.
You can easily handle 100-200 concurrent active users on a decent CPU with SQLite, if you don't do anything crazy. And if you need a project management solution that needs more than that, you probably are not too concerned about the price.
I think the point they're making is that it's not exactly cheap either, given the amount of upfront knowledge (and time investment to gain that knowledge) required, or the cost of vetting and paying people who do have that knowledge.
So "cheap and powerful" just looks like "powerful", at which point you may as well make it easy, too, and go with a managed or hybrid solution.
So "cheap and powerful" just looks like "powerful", at which point you may as well make it easy, too, and go with a managed or hybrid solution.
It's "cheap" as in "not paying $39/mo per user", or whatever other subscription / licensing fees.
Why is open-source "cheap"?
It seems like you look at the cost of things only through the lens of licensing and not the cost of people to run/maintain them.
I have nothing against OSS per se, but in my experience, the financial analysis of OSS vs paid software is much more subtle.
It seems like you look at the cost of things only through the lens of licensing and not the cost of people to run/maintain them.
I have nothing against OSS per se, but in my experience, the financial analysis of OSS vs paid software is much more subtle.
the cost of the people is represented by it not being "easy"
(Also building a product in the productivity space, with an option for users to self-host the backend)
That's interesting, for us there was actually no trade-off in that sense. Having operated another SaaS with a lot of moving parts (separate DB, queueing, etc), we came to the conclusion rather early on that it would save us a lot of time, $ and hassle if we could just run a single binary on our servers instead. That also happens to be the experience (installation/deployment/maintenance) we would want our users to have if they choose to download our backend and self-host.
Just download the binary, and run it. Another benefit is that it's also super helpful for local development, we can run the actual production server on our own laptop as well.
We're simply using a Go backend with SQLite and local disk storage and it pretty much contains everything we need to scale, from websockets to queues. The only #ifdef cloud_or_self_hosted will probably be that we'll use some S3-like next to a local cache.
That's interesting, for us there was actually no trade-off in that sense. Having operated another SaaS with a lot of moving parts (separate DB, queueing, etc), we came to the conclusion rather early on that it would save us a lot of time, $ and hassle if we could just run a single binary on our servers instead. That also happens to be the experience (installation/deployment/maintenance) we would want our users to have if they choose to download our backend and self-host.
Just download the binary, and run it. Another benefit is that it's also super helpful for local development, we can run the actual production server on our own laptop as well.
We're simply using a Go backend with SQLite and local disk storage and it pretty much contains everything we need to scale, from websockets to queues. The only #ifdef cloud_or_self_hosted will probably be that we'll use some S3-like next to a local cache.
I think that's great if you prefer to operate a service like that. Operating for one customer vs many can often have different requirements, and that's where it can make sense to start splitting things out, but if the service can be built that way then that's the best of both worlds!
> We're simply using a Go backend with SQLite and local disk storage and it pretty much contains everything we need to scale
How do you make it highly available like this? Are you bundling an SQLite replication library with it as well?
How do you make it highly available like this? Are you bundling an SQLite replication library with it as well?
This is probably where the real trade-off is, and for that it's helpful to look at what the actual failure modes and requirements are. Highly available is a range and a moving target of course, with every "extra 9" getting a lot more complicated. Simply swapping SQLite for another database is not going to guarantee all the nines of uptime for specific industry requirements, just like running everything on a single server might already provide all the uptime you need.
In our experience a simple architecture like this almost never goes down and is good enough for the vast majority of apps, even when serving a lot of users. Certainly for almost all apps in this space. Servers are super reliable, upgrades are trivial, and for very catastrophical failures recovery is extremely easy: just copy the latest snapshot of your app directory over to a new server and done. For scaling, we can simply shard over N servers, but that will realistically never be needed for the self-hosted version with the number of users within one organization.
In addition, our app is offline-first, so all clients can work fully offline and sync back any changes later. Offline-first moves some of the complexity from the ops layer to the app layer of course but it means that in practice any rare interruption will probably go unnoticed.
In our experience a simple architecture like this almost never goes down and is good enough for the vast majority of apps, even when serving a lot of users. Certainly for almost all apps in this space. Servers are super reliable, upgrades are trivial, and for very catastrophical failures recovery is extremely easy: just copy the latest snapshot of your app directory over to a new server and done. For scaling, we can simply shard over N servers, but that will realistically never be needed for the self-hosted version with the number of users within one organization.
In addition, our app is offline-first, so all clients can work fully offline and sync back any changes later. Offline-first moves some of the complexity from the ops layer to the app layer of course but it means that in practice any rare interruption will probably go unnoticed.
> just copy the latest snapshot of your app directory over to a new server and done.
In practice, wouldn't you need a load balancer in front of your site for that to be somewhat feasible? I can't imagine you're doing manual DNS updates in that scenario because of propagation time.
In practice, wouldn't you need a load balancer in front of your site for that to be somewhat feasible? I can't imagine you're doing manual DNS updates in that scenario because of propagation time.
I don't know for sure but the explanation given sounds very much like they expect it to be a 100% manual process.
> Servers are super reliable
We have clearly worked in very different places.
We have clearly worked in very different places.
What about the user interface? I’m all in on Go + Sqlite, but the user facing parts need a UI.
Sure, this is just about the syncing backend. Our "IDE" frontend is written in vanilla JavaScript, which the Go backend can even serve directly by embedding files in the Go binary, using Go's embed package. Everything's just vanilla JS so there are no additional packages or build steps required.
Are you using something like Wails or Electron to wrap this into a desktop app? I’ll have to sign up for Thymer and check it out!
I’ve been prototyping my app with a sveltekit user-facing frontend that could also eventually work inside Tauri or Electron, simply because that was a more familiar approach. I’ve enjoyed writing data acquisition and processing pipelines in Go so much more that a realistic way of building more of the application in Go sounds really appealing, as long as the stack doesn’t get too esoteric and hard to hire for.
I’ve been prototyping my app with a sveltekit user-facing frontend that could also eventually work inside Tauri or Electron, simply because that was a more familiar approach. I’ve enjoyed writing data acquisition and processing pipelines in Go so much more that a realistic way of building more of the application in Go sounds really appealing, as long as the stack doesn’t get too esoteric and hard to hire for.
Not GP, but someone else who's also building with Go+SvelteKit. I'm embedding and hosting SvelteKit with my Go binary, and that seems to be working well so far for me. Took some figuring out to get Go embedding and hosting to play nicely with SvelteKit's adapter-static. But now that that's in place, it seems to be reliable.
Yeah, I think keeping infra simple is the way to go too. You can micro-optimize a lot of things, but this doesn’t really beat the simplicity of just running SQLite, or Postgres, or maybe Postgres + one specialized DB (like ClickHouse if you need OLAP).
S3 is pretty helpful though even on self-hosted instances (e.g. you can offload storage to a cheap R2/B2 that way, or put user uploads behind a CDN, or make it easier to move stuff from one cloud to another etc). Maybe consider an env variable instead of an #ifdef?
S3 is pretty helpful though even on self-hosted instances (e.g. you can offload storage to a cheap R2/B2 that way, or put user uploads behind a CDN, or make it easier to move stuff from one cloud to another etc). Maybe consider an env variable instead of an #ifdef?
> Deploying this requires running 5 different open source servers (databases, proxies, etc)
That is the nature of the beast for most feature rich products these days. The alternative is to pay for cloud service and outsource the maintenance work.
I don't mind a complex installation of such a service, as long as it is properly containerized and I can install and run it with a single docker-compose command.
That is the nature of the beast for most feature rich products these days. The alternative is to pay for cloud service and outsource the maintenance work.
I don't mind a complex installation of such a service, as long as it is properly containerized and I can install and run it with a single docker-compose command.
This reminds me of Sentry. This podcast interview had an interesting discussion of self-hosting: https://www.flagsmith.com/podcast/sentry
> In terms of how much thought and design you put into the self-hosted story, this is one of the things that we've been slowly realizing that every time the product gets more complex and the infrastructure required that run it gets more complex. As soon as you include a time series database, then that's adding another ratchet up of complexity if you're self-hosting it, but more outside of docker name. How much did you have that in your mind when you were designing the platform?
> I would say that's changed a lot over time. Early on, Sentry’s goal was to adapt to infrastructure. We use Django. We’ve got support for different databases out of the box, SQLite, Postgres, MySQL. MySQL is going all this other stuff at some point too. We had that model early on. ... Our whole goal, and this is still the goal of the company, we want everybody to be able to use Sentry. That's why the open source thing is also critical for us. Adapting infrastructure is one way to do that. Now, we changed our mind on that because what that turned into is this mess of, we have to support all these weird edge cases, and nobody is informed about how to do things. We're like, “That's all dead. We only support Postgres.” Key value is still a little bit flexible. It's hard to mess up key values. We're like, “You can write an adapter. We only support Redis for this thing. We use a technology called Cortana. We only support ClickHouse for this thing.” We're over this era of, “Can we adapt it because it looks similar?” and it made our lives so much better.
> In terms of how much thought and design you put into the self-hosted story, this is one of the things that we've been slowly realizing that every time the product gets more complex and the infrastructure required that run it gets more complex. As soon as you include a time series database, then that's adding another ratchet up of complexity if you're self-hosting it, but more outside of docker name. How much did you have that in your mind when you were designing the platform?
> I would say that's changed a lot over time. Early on, Sentry’s goal was to adapt to infrastructure. We use Django. We’ve got support for different databases out of the box, SQLite, Postgres, MySQL. MySQL is going all this other stuff at some point too. We had that model early on. ... Our whole goal, and this is still the goal of the company, we want everybody to be able to use Sentry. That's why the open source thing is also critical for us. Adapting infrastructure is one way to do that. Now, we changed our mind on that because what that turned into is this mess of, we have to support all these weird edge cases, and nobody is informed about how to do things. We're like, “That's all dead. We only support Postgres.” Key value is still a little bit flexible. It's hard to mess up key values. We're like, “You can write an adapter. We only support Redis for this thing. We use a technology called Cortana. We only support ClickHouse for this thing.” We're over this era of, “Can we adapt it because it looks similar?” and it made our lives so much better.
Venture-backed open-source typically wants the software to run everywhere because some percentage of devs will have the power to get the enterprise they work for to shell out $$$ for the hosted service.
Great for short/medium-term but unsustainable long-term.
Great for short/medium-term but unsustainable long-term.
Super important point. I work for a very large famous company and deployed an open source project with a bit of customization which became one of the most used internal apps at the company. It was mainly front end code. It gained a lot of traction on GitHub, and the developer decided to create 2.0, which ended up having dependencies on things like supabase. I did all I could to try to deploy supabase internally but it was just too much of an impedence mismatch with our systems, so we ended up punting and going with another provider. If they just went with raw Postgres it would have been fine as we already have a Postgres provider internally, but I wasn't willing to commit to being the maintainer for a supabase and its many moving parts as a frontend engineer.
Every decision for an external dependency that a self-hosted service makes is another chance for it to have that impedance mismatch you mentioned.
Postgres is a relatively uncontroversial one, but I had the benefit of working for a company already operating a production postgres cluster where I could easily spin up a new database for a service. I went with SQLite/on disk storage because for most companies, providing a resilient block storage device, with backups, is likely trivial, regardless of which cloud they're on, being on bare metal, etc.
Postgres is a relatively uncontroversial one, but I had the benefit of working for a company already operating a production postgres cluster where I could easily spin up a new database for a service. I went with SQLite/on disk storage because for most companies, providing a resilient block storage device, with backups, is likely trivial, regardless of which cloud they're on, being on bare metal, etc.
SQLite is fine and dandy as long as you don't do a lot of updates. SQLite locks the entire database for a transaction. It may be fine for quite long, or you may face slowdowns with just a few parallel users, depending on your use case.
Seemingly unpopular opinion, but coming from more ops related background, I always appreciate configurable deployments. If I want to test-deploy the thing on my own workstation I hope the defaults will work, but in a corporate environment I may not only want, but actually require flexibility.
Infra, ops and dev intersect at different points in different orgs. Some may provide custom kubernetes operator and abstract the service away, some orgs may provide certain "managed" building blocks, e.g. postgres instance. Some will give you a VM and and iscsi volume. Some will allocate credits in cloud platform.
Having the ability to plug preexisting service into the deployment is an advantage in my book.
Infra, ops and dev intersect at different points in different orgs. Some may provide custom kubernetes operator and abstract the service away, some orgs may provide certain "managed" building blocks, e.g. postgres instance. Some will give you a VM and and iscsi volume. Some will allocate credits in cloud platform.
Having the ability to plug preexisting service into the deployment is an advantage in my book.
It's not an unpopular opinion, but as far as I can tell Huly is not a configurable deployment. It's a strict set of dependencies. If you can't run Mongo, Elastic, and a bunch of other bits, then you can't run it. The more pieces they add the more likely any one potential user can't run it.
The options are either to minimise the dependencies (the approach I advocated for in my parent comment), or to maximise the flexibility of those dependencies, like requiring a generic-SQL database rather than Mongo, requiring an S3 compatible object store rather than whatever they picked. This is however far more work.
The options are either to minimise the dependencies (the approach I advocated for in my parent comment), or to maximise the flexibility of those dependencies, like requiring a generic-SQL database rather than Mongo, requiring an S3 compatible object store rather than whatever they picked. This is however far more work.
This is clearly a case where Huly's primary focus is their complex SaaS option. The self-host option has to follow core or it bitrots. I'm fine with this trade-off personally.
> there's an interesting tension here with applications that target self-hosting
I'm reasonably proficient with Docker, been using it for over a decade. But until now I've never encountered "rush". And it did not surprise me to find some new tool - actually I probably would have been surprised to not find some new tool. Every project seems to foregoe established, known tools for something novel now. I mean I'm glad it's not "make", but the overhead for learning completely new tools to understand what I'm introducing into the company is attrition.
I don't really see where you are getting that
https://github.com/hcengineering/huly-selfhost
https://github.com/hcengineering/huly-selfhost
That's actually supporting the posters' argument.
Take a look at all the configs and moving parts checked in this very repo that are needed to run a self-hosted instance. Yes, it is somewhat nicely abstracted away, but that doesn't change the fact that in the kube directory alone [1] there are 10 subfolders with even more config files.
1: https://github.com/hcengineering/huly-selfhost/tree/main/kub...
Take a look at all the configs and moving parts checked in this very repo that are needed to run a self-hosted instance. Yes, it is somewhat nicely abstracted away, but that doesn't change the fact that in the kube directory alone [1] there are 10 subfolders with even more config files.
1: https://github.com/hcengineering/huly-selfhost/tree/main/kub...
> Yes, it is somewhat nicely abstracted away, but that doesn't change the fact that in the kube directory alone [1] there are 10 subfolders with even more config files.
That's just what you get with Kubernetes, most of the time. Although powerful and widely utilized, it can be quite... verbose. For a simpler interpretation, you can look at https://github.com/hcengineering/huly-selfhost/blob/main/tem...
There, you have:
That's just what you get with Kubernetes, most of the time. Although powerful and widely utilized, it can be quite... verbose. For a simpler interpretation, you can look at https://github.com/hcengineering/huly-selfhost/blob/main/tem...
There, you have:
mongodb supporting service
minio supporting service
elastic supporting service
account their service
workspace their service
front their service
collaborator their service
transactor their service
rekoni their service
As someone that develops native Kubernetes platforms: Providing the raw resources / manifests is almost the worst way of providing a user install.
That works great as long as you never have a breaking change in your manifests or any kind of more complex upgrade.
Which brings me back to the initial question: Is this complexity and the external dependencies really needed? For a decently decomposed, highly scalable microservice architecture, maybe. For an Open Source (likely) single tenant management platform? Unlikely.
It highlights the problem of clashing requirements of different target user groups.
Which brings me back to the initial question: Is this complexity and the external dependencies really needed? For a decently decomposed, highly scalable microservice architecture, maybe. For an Open Source (likely) single tenant management platform? Unlikely.
It highlights the problem of clashing requirements of different target user groups.
We can also take a look at the linux kernel that powers the docker instances and faint in terror.
These “moving parts” are implementation details which (iiuc) require no maintenance apart from backing up via some obvious solutions. Didn’t they make docker to stop worrying about exactly this?
And you don’t need multiple roles, specialists or competences for that, it’s a one-time task for a single sysop who can google and read man. These management-spoiled ideas will hire one guy for every explicitly named thing. Tell them you’re using echo and printf and they rush to search for an output-ops team.
These “moving parts” are implementation details which (iiuc) require no maintenance apart from backing up via some obvious solutions. Didn’t they make docker to stop worrying about exactly this?
And you don’t need multiple roles, specialists or competences for that, it’s a one-time task for a single sysop who can google and read man. These management-spoiled ideas will hire one guy for every explicitly named thing. Tell them you’re using echo and printf and they rush to search for an output-ops team.
These moving parts require active understanding and maintenance, as they will change on each and every upgrade, which also requires manual upgrade steps and potential debugging on breaking changes.
OCI images let you worry less about dependencies, but what they don't eliminate is debugging and/or upgrading k8s configuration manifests (which we are looking at here).
> We can also take a look at the linux kernel that powers the docker instances and faint in terror.
Sure, and computers are rocks powered by lightning - very, very frighting. That doesn't invalidate criticism about the usability and design of this very product my friend.
> We can also take a look at the linux kernel that powers the docker instances and faint in terror.
Sure, and computers are rocks powered by lightning - very, very frighting. That doesn't invalidate criticism about the usability and design of this very product my friend.
These moving parts require active understanding and maintenance, as they will change on each and every upgrade, which also requires manual upgrade steps and potential debugging on breaking changes
Maybe they won’t change or migrations will be backwards-compatible. We don’t know that in general. Pretty sure all the software installed on my PC uses numerous databases. But somehow I never upgraded them manually. I find the root position overdefensive at best.
If it were a specific criticism, fine. But it uses lots of assumptions as far as I can tell, cause it references no mds, configs, migrations, etc. It only projects a general idea about issues someone had at their org in some situation. This whole “moving parts” idiom is management speak. You either see a specific problem with a specific setup, or have to look inside to see it. Everything else is fortune telling.
Maybe they won’t change or migrations will be backwards-compatible. We don’t know that in general. Pretty sure all the software installed on my PC uses numerous databases. But somehow I never upgraded them manually. I find the root position overdefensive at best.
If it were a specific criticism, fine. But it uses lots of assumptions as far as I can tell, cause it references no mds, configs, migrations, etc. It only projects a general idea about issues someone had at their org in some situation. This whole “moving parts” idiom is management speak. You either see a specific problem with a specific setup, or have to look inside to see it. Everything else is fortune telling.
I am a firm believer that any self-hosted app should require, at most, a docker-compose.yml and possibly a .env file to get a basic service up and running. Requiring me to clone your repo or run some script from your site doesn't inspire a lot of confidence that it will be easy to maintain and keep up to date, whereas if you provide a prebuilt Docker image, I know that I can always just pull the latest image and be up-to-date.
That doesn't preempt the parent's concerns. If your docker-compose has a mongo container now I have to either self-host mongo or use atlas.
Thanks so much for the analysis. I wish that people would simplify shit more.
I think that self hosted has two meanings and not every person that self hosts want to use docker.
I think that self hosted has two meanings and not every person that self hosts want to use docker.
If docker is spinning all the services up it’s not as big of a deal.
Unfortunately, JavaScript based apps can be quite convoluted to output HTML and JavaScript.
Unfortunately, JavaScript based apps can be quite convoluted to output HTML and JavaScript.
>If docker is spinning all the services up it’s not as big of a deal.
Until something goes wrong, or the business side of the house asks for some kind of customization.
Until something goes wrong, or the business side of the house asks for some kind of customization.
Same for manually hosting it and an update breaking it.
Docker can be a min to packaging an application.
Appwrite is a good example of packaging a complex app nearly flawlessly with docker and making updates a little more seamless.
I continue to have my reservations about docker having used it for a long time but some applications are helpful.
It’s unrealistic to eliminate it on the basis of it not being perfect for any and all scenarios.
It makes software available to more people to be able to run locally, and I’m not sure that’s a bad thing.
Docker can be a min to packaging an application.
Appwrite is a good example of packaging a complex app nearly flawlessly with docker and making updates a little more seamless.
I continue to have my reservations about docker having used it for a long time but some applications are helpful.
It’s unrealistic to eliminate it on the basis of it not being perfect for any and all scenarios.
It makes software available to more people to be able to run locally, and I’m not sure that’s a bad thing.
The most complex system that I've seen that you could self host is the Sentry APM solution, have a look at how many services there are: https://github.com/getsentry/self-hosted/blob/master/docker-...
That's the main reason why I've gone why Apache Skywalking instead, even if it's a bit jank and has fewer features.
It's kind of unfortunate, either you just have an RDBMS and use it for everything (key-value/document storage, caches, queues, search etc.), or you fan out and have Valkey, RabbitMQ and so on, increasing the complexity.
That's also why at the moment I use either OpenProject (which is a bit on the slow side but has an okay feature set) or Kanboard (which is really fast, but slim on features) for my self-hosted project management stuff. Neither solution is perfect, but at least I can run them.
That's the main reason why I've gone why Apache Skywalking instead, even if it's a bit jank and has fewer features.
It's kind of unfortunate, either you just have an RDBMS and use it for everything (key-value/document storage, caches, queues, search etc.), or you fan out and have Valkey, RabbitMQ and so on, increasing the complexity.
That's also why at the moment I use either OpenProject (which is a bit on the slow side but has an okay feature set) or Kanboard (which is really fast, but slim on features) for my self-hosted project management stuff. Neither solution is perfect, but at least I can run them.
We had to roll back to an earlier version of Sentry for this exact reason. It went from a few gb to using 18gb+ of RAM and a factor more number of containers. The older version had every feature we wanted, so there was no need to move forward.
As a counterpoint though, the issue for me is "environment pollution" - not then number of products.
My metric for this is something like Portainer, where it's installation instructions tend to be "install this Helm chart on the K8s cluster you already have" or "run this script which will install 10 services by a bunch of bash (because it's basically some developers dev environment)".
Whereas what I've always done for my own stuff is use whatever suits, and then deploy via all-in-one fat container images using runit to host everything they need. That way the experience (at most scales I operate at) is just "run exactly 1 container". Which works for self-hosting.
Then you just leave the hooks in to use the internal container services outside the service for anyone who wants to "go pro" about it, but don't make a bunch of opinions on how that should work.
My metric for this is something like Portainer, where it's installation instructions tend to be "install this Helm chart on the K8s cluster you already have" or "run this script which will install 10 services by a bunch of bash (because it's basically some developers dev environment)".
Whereas what I've always done for my own stuff is use whatever suits, and then deploy via all-in-one fat container images using runit to host everything they need. That way the experience (at most scales I operate at) is just "run exactly 1 container". Which works for self-hosting.
Then you just leave the hooks in to use the internal container services outside the service for anyone who wants to "go pro" about it, but don't make a bunch of opinions on how that should work.
> ..."run exactly 1 container". Which works for self-hosting.
On Linux.
The container everything trend that also has the effect of removing non-Linux POSIX-ish options from the table.
On Linux.
The container everything trend that also has the effect of removing non-Linux POSIX-ish options from the table.
It seems like there are different categories of "self-hosting" that are something like "corporate self-hosting" and "personal self-hosting" plus some in-between, such as for the lone wolf admin contractor, etc.
> I've been using SQLite and
Postgres’ inability to be wrapped in Java (ie SQLite can be run as a Java jar, but PG need to be installed separately, because it’s in C) gives it a major, major drawback for shipping. If you ship installable software to customers, you’ll either have to make it a Docker or publish many guidelines, let alone customers will claim they can only install Oracle and then you’ll have to support 4 DBs.
How have you found SQLite’s performance for large-scale deployments, like if you imagine using it for the backend of Jira or any webapp?
Postgres’ inability to be wrapped in Java (ie SQLite can be run as a Java jar, but PG need to be installed separately, because it’s in C) gives it a major, major drawback for shipping. If you ship installable software to customers, you’ll either have to make it a Docker or publish many guidelines, let alone customers will claim they can only install Oracle and then you’ll have to support 4 DBs.
How have you found SQLite’s performance for large-scale deployments, like if you imagine using it for the backend of Jira or any webapp?
SQLite is written in C. And the most commonly used SQLite driver interfaces to that compiled C code directly via JNI.
The PostgreSQL client driver is written in pure Java on the other hand.
Has nothing to do with language used.
You can wrap anything in a jar (it’s just a zip file).
You could certainly embed PostgreSQL in a jar and you can do something similar to this
https://github.com/electric-sql/pglite
I don’t think there’s that much interest, but it is doable.
EDIT: https://github.com/zonkyio/embedded-postgres
You could certainly embed PostgreSQL in a jar and you can do something similar to this
https://github.com/electric-sql/pglite
I don’t think there’s that much interest, but it is doable.
EDIT: https://github.com/zonkyio/embedded-postgres
If you need a database that you can embed in Java, have a look at:
H2: https://www.h2database.com/html/main.html
HSQLDB: https://hsqldb.org/
Apache Derby: https://db.apache.org/derby/
Though those would certainly be a bit niche approaches, so you'll find that there are fewer examples of using either online.
H2: https://www.h2database.com/html/main.html
HSQLDB: https://hsqldb.org/
Apache Derby: https://db.apache.org/derby/
Though those would certainly be a bit niche approaches, so you'll find that there are fewer examples of using either online.
Can't such issues be solved by having something like a helm chart with meaningful scaling cofigs provider? Nexclozlud dies somthing like this and it makes scaling the cluster a breeze.
Well, it gives you more projects with which you can use it to manage!
I did the same for my self-hosted product, chose MySQL + PHP, one of the simplest stacks possible that's supported by almost all hosting providers out-of-the-box.
I wrote about exactly this trade-off for Bugsink (self-hosted Error Tracking) here: https://www.bugsink.com/blog/installation-simplification-jou...
I'd like to see more of something like this https://github.com/electric-sql/pglite in combination with a redis/valkey compatible API and then you could still have it run out of the box, but allow folks to point to external servers too for both of those services if they need to scale.
Although you do lack the simple on-disk db format that way.
Although you do lack the simple on-disk db format that way.
When I see things like this where you need a package manager to install a different package manager to install the tool, and the only setup information assumes a bunch of stuff in Docker on a single machine, I just default to assuming it's deliberately over-engineered and under-documented specifically to dissuade self hosting.
I have seen open source products that pull 5 redis containers each per type of data/features alone making it all very complicated to operate. That's where the button for "Cloud Pricing" comes into play.
> it's deliberately over-engineered and under-documented specifically to dissuade self hosting.
This right here. Shitty architecture choices as a deliberate moat.
This right here. Shitty architecture choices as a deliberate moat.
Personal observation: Company use this strategy to redirect user into using their cloud platform and open-source is an go-to-market strategy.
I think this pattern is not that harsh if they have a script to guarantee setting up a k8s cluster or some sort of that.
I think this pattern is not that harsh if they have a script to guarantee setting up a k8s cluster or some sort of that.
It always seems like Rails is ahead with understanding what is actually important for most people (before or if mosz people get around to understanding it). Looking at 8 in regards to this issue reinforces that once again.
My philosophy is that's fine, as long as I get a terraform module that sets up the infra for me. Knowing how to glue the pieces together is often the vast majority of the effort.
That's kind solves, isn't it? Create interfaces for the components (DBs, Queues, etc) and let the users decide.
Are you against using containers?
Not at all, but they don't solve this problem. They help, but just because a database is in a container doesn't mean you don't need to know how it operates. Containerised databases don't necessarily come with maintenance processes automated, or may automate them in a way that isn't suitable for your needs.
Postgres vacuuming comes to mind as an example. Pre-built docker images of it often just ignore the problem and leave it up to the defaults, but the defaults rarely work in production and need some thought. Similarly, you can tune Postgres for the type of storage it's running on, but a pre-built container is unlikely to come with that tuning process automated, or with the right tuning parameters for your underlying storage. Maybe you build these things yourself, but now you need to understand Postgres, and that's the key problem.
Containers do mostly solve running the 5 built-in services, at least at small scale, but may still need tuning to make sure each pod has the right balance of resources, has the right number of replicas, etc.
Postgres vacuuming comes to mind as an example. Pre-built docker images of it often just ignore the problem and leave it up to the defaults, but the defaults rarely work in production and need some thought. Similarly, you can tune Postgres for the type of storage it's running on, but a pre-built container is unlikely to come with that tuning process automated, or with the right tuning parameters for your underlying storage. Maybe you build these things yourself, but now you need to understand Postgres, and that's the key problem.
Containers do mostly solve running the 5 built-in services, at least at small scale, but may still need tuning to make sure each pod has the right balance of resources, has the right number of replicas, etc.
Yeah, for a software I'd use personally, if I don't see a docker-compose.yml I walk away from such a software. Painful enough to write those docker files for client projects that I work on. Huly has docker-compose files hidden and meant for dev? But a quick look into it show a lot of environment variables which is a great thing if you want to use your existing database once the software's use outgrows whatever specific limitations your docker host has. https://github.com/hcengineering/platform/blob/develop/dev/d...
Their huly-selfhost project lets you run a setup to create that docker-compose file and it looks decent.
Sorry I’m not, but I thought customers would prefer a Kubernetes deployment than docker-compose? Isn’t docker-compose for the programmer’s machine, and isn’t K8s the big microservice organizer of large companies, requiring sysadmins to rewrite the file? Can K8s use docker-compose.yml files?
Kubernetes cannot ingest compose files as-is, no.
From a users point of view: If I'm interested in a project, I usually try to run it locally for a test drive. If you make me jump through many complex hoops just to get the equivalent of a "Hello World" running, that sucks big time.
From a customers point of view: Ideally you want both, local and cluster deployment options. Personally I prefer a compose file and a Helm chart.
In this specific case I'd argue that if you're interested in running an OSS project management product, you're likely a small/medium business that doesn't want to shell out for Atlassian - so it's also likely you don't have k8s cluster infrastructure, or people that would know how to operate one.
From a users point of view: If I'm interested in a project, I usually try to run it locally for a test drive. If you make me jump through many complex hoops just to get the equivalent of a "Hello World" running, that sucks big time.
From a customers point of view: Ideally you want both, local and cluster deployment options. Personally I prefer a compose file and a Helm chart.
In this specific case I'd argue that if you're interested in running an OSS project management product, you're likely a small/medium business that doesn't want to shell out for Atlassian - so it's also likely you don't have k8s cluster infrastructure, or people that would know how to operate one.
As a person with russian background I am laughing on the name of the project. With all the respect to the effort, I can’t take it seriously.
The «хули» (direct transliteration to huly) means “what a hell” or actually a bit spicier “what a f@ck”. This phrase is common for russian tradies who don’t bather to know anything but where is the nearest bottle shop and how much time left til the end of work shift.
The name reminded me PizData project from the russian speakers.
What. A. Joke.
The «хули» (direct transliteration to huly) means “what a hell” or actually a bit spicier “what a f@ck”. This phrase is common for russian tradies who don’t bather to know anything but where is the nearest bottle shop and how much time left til the end of work shift.
The name reminded me PizData project from the russian speakers.
What. A. Joke.
Huly is being built by Andrey Platov, who was previously infamously known for Xored from Novosibirsk. It is clearly intentional.
Right, then I am not surprised at all. I am looking at his github account now, his status is « твой софт — гавно» (direct translation: « your software — shit»).
To me it's a clear message that the author doesn't respect anybody. Also, it seems applicable to potential projects people will build using that Huly tool?
I guess my question would be -- how on earth it's possible people trust authors like this and commit into using product built by them?
To me it's a clear message that the author doesn't respect anybody. Also, it seems applicable to potential projects people will build using that Huly tool?
I guess my question would be -- how on earth it's possible people trust authors like this and commit into using product built by them?
A potential knave then. I know I won't use them.
C.f. 'git', which you probably do use and etymologically is obviously a bit rude and humorous too.
Merriam-Webster says:
> as in lunatic a person who lacks good sense or judgment
Not marked as rude or profane.
> as in lunatic a person who lacks good sense or judgment
Not marked as rude or profane.
It's a British English word, so don't use Merriam-Webster [0]:
> a person, especially a man, who is stupid or unpleasant
Or [1]:
> If you refer to another person as a git, you mean you dislike them and find them annoying. [British, offensive, disapproval]
[0] https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/git
[1] https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/git
> a person, especially a man, who is stupid or unpleasant
Or [1]:
> If you refer to another person as a git, you mean you dislike them and find them annoying. [British, offensive, disapproval]
[0] https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/git
[1] https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/git
This is pretty clearly built by Russians (look at the Github contributors).
This reminds me of something called Kontool from Germany (IIRC). Hahaha, I already laugh thinking about it. I think it's an accounting tool, but the name has an unfortunate meaning in Indonesian... it means "dick"
I guess this kind of things are inevitable...
Also, if you see their Twitter account, they clearly are aware of this naming clash and actually embracing it hahaha
I guess this kind of things are inevitable...
Also, if you see their Twitter account, they clearly are aware of this naming clash and actually embracing it hahaha
While it may have connotations in specific languages, it doesn't signify quality of the project. Hope we agree on it.
Yes, cut them some Slack.
Hooli?
I thought about Huli from Silicon Valley TV show, and couldn't but think "Gentlemen, and lady, of the board"
I knew contributor @aplatoff personally, and project name is consistent with his rough and witty character.
The general category of "project management software" is obviously a very crowded one. But it's a space where I'm always genuinely excited to see an even-slightly-new take; I think anybody who's worked in a modern workplace would agree that this is very much not a solved problem, and the returns on even small improvements are so huge.
Best of luck to Huly, this seems pretty cool. I've never gone all-in on a fully-integrated stack like this (issue tracking + docs + chat + calls), but it seems like in an ideal world, that's what you would want? Huge integration with O365 seems like the one thing people do actually like about MS Teams, for example.
Also, I'm a sucker for cool laser animations, so I'm saving the home + pricing pages to an inspiration folder for sure.
Best of luck to Huly, this seems pretty cool. I've never gone all-in on a fully-integrated stack like this (issue tracking + docs + chat + calls), but it seems like in an ideal world, that's what you would want? Huge integration with O365 seems like the one thing people do actually like about MS Teams, for example.
Also, I'm a sucker for cool laser animations, so I'm saving the home + pricing pages to an inspiration folder for sure.
It's the reason why it can only work at small scale: it's all or nothing. It wants to be your only communication channel. But, surprise, as soon as you live in a larger organisation, there will already be communication channels that serve part of the same purpose. Then most of the functionality become clutter.
lol, I too was fascinated with their clock animation at the bottom of the homepage. Not really a PM vibe, but cool nonetheless.
Is there a way to export all your data from Huly?
The pricing is very interesting. The company I work for pays $20k for Jira & Confluence and $20k for Slack every year. And this platform claims I can replace both of them for $3600/year? and it's open source? The marketing looks great, so I hope the platform is actually a good competitor. I'd be so curious to see what their revenue is every year.
Basecamp is also the same price. SaaS pricing is all made up. If you're a high-margin SaaS company the idea of spending $40k/yr for this seems... fine. If you're a small business, or you operate on retail margins, you'd laugh them out of the room, and rightly so as there are great tools at far better prices.
The idea of every service charging $15-30 per user per month is a myth perpetuated by companies who themselves have that budget to spend out of their VC funding.
The idea of every service charging $15-30 per user per month is a myth perpetuated by companies who themselves have that budget to spend out of their VC funding.
SaaS pricing is so weird because for so many things because the cost to run per user is almost zero, but then the company is spending tens or hundreds of millions of dollars developing the software.
Evernote once had a valuation of nearly 2 billion, and like 400 employees.
I replaced it with Obsidian which gives me more value and it was mostly just made by two people, now they list 9 employees, one of whom is the office cat.
Each company for me was just syncing some text and maybe a few larger things like PDFs. The actual cost of that is pennies per year.
Evernote once had a valuation of nearly 2 billion, and like 400 employees.
I replaced it with Obsidian which gives me more value and it was mostly just made by two people, now they list 9 employees, one of whom is the office cat.
Each company for me was just syncing some text and maybe a few larger things like PDFs. The actual cost of that is pennies per year.
Postman is one example - imagine spending 30 bucks a month on a tool that lets you call APIs.
I am of the opinion that curl is better simply because you are already in the command line. You can use vim fzf or bash with it. Also curl will be the same on the day you die.
Not only this, but it's worse for the fact that it's in a web browser, vs just being a native app that could be sold once, or at least with a yearly subscription for maintenance at 1/10th of the cost.
The problem is that they realised they could make more money by trying to lock companies into a proprietary API definition platform – they want the design, testing, QA, documentation, etc, all to happen in Postman.
The problem is that they realised they could make more money by trying to lock companies into a proprietary API definition platform – they want the design, testing, QA, documentation, etc, all to happen in Postman.
I mean, locking users into your platform is one of the most common ways companies make money and keep making money. And that works.
If you want an obvious example, look at Apple.
If you want an obvious example, look at Apple.
I guess my point here is that being closed is directly against the goals of the technology. Apple's lock-in is either a side effect or potentially even beneficial to their goal of providing a good phone/computer/whatever, whereas commercial lock-in is fairly clearly opposed to creating an API ecosystem that is usable across a range of technologies/consumers/etc.
Especially when Bruno exists. The idea that people are hosting their entire API knowledge base in a third party server instead of their git repo...
https://github.com/usebruno/bruno
https://github.com/usebruno/bruno
[deleted]
Only $15-$30 per user! What a deal!
Somebody hasn't experienced Salesforce pricing
Somebody hasn't experienced Salesforce pricing
SaaS pricing is based on how captive the customers can be.
I am not a fan of Atlassian products, but what retains them the most aren't the qualities of the products themselves nowadays, but the integration and plugin ecosystem + the difficulty of exporting the data. Nearly every tool has an integration for either jira, bitbucket, confluence, or all of them. And you would usually dismiss any tool that doesn't have them if you are an Atlassian customer already. Once you have set that up but decide you are paying too much for it, good luck good luck telling your users they will surely lose data/formatting/integrations when migrating to some other tool. This + having to train people to use another tool while companies usually take for granted that their users won't get lost in Jira (which really isn't true).
Ultimately it becomes more of a tax than a price.
I am not a fan of Atlassian products, but what retains them the most aren't the qualities of the products themselves nowadays, but the integration and plugin ecosystem + the difficulty of exporting the data. Nearly every tool has an integration for either jira, bitbucket, confluence, or all of them. And you would usually dismiss any tool that doesn't have them if you are an Atlassian customer already. Once you have set that up but decide you are paying too much for it, good luck good luck telling your users they will surely lose data/formatting/integrations when migrating to some other tool. This + having to train people to use another tool while companies usually take for granted that their users won't get lost in Jira (which really isn't true).
Ultimately it becomes more of a tax than a price.
Interesting naming decision it's actually a swear word in russian and given that top contributors are obviously familiar with the lang. that is not a coincidence.
Indeed, I was going to point out that it may be an innocent mistake, like a decade old "Fedora for Raspberry PI" blunder. But now I've had a close look at the list of contributors, I cannot stop thinking it is an exquisite trolling!
Totally not a coincidence
https://x.com/platoff/status/1737142050603086281
https://x.com/platoff/status/1737142050603086281
Interesting username decision — “qaq” (քաք) is actually the vulgar word for “shit” in Armenian.
(քաք) sure looks cute though
Tangibly related: car (kar) means dick in albanian. Imagine elementary english class: "my father has a huge car, and my mother too"
English too: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cack
Wow this is incredible. I had no clue. Indo-European language high-five moment?
Good to know
I'm sure GP is aware of this. This root has "shitty" connotations in many languages, Russian included.
that def was not the intention :) как is how in russian
My thoughts just from reading the landing page, not having tested it.
I think trying to replace all these Apps
> serves as an all-in-one replacement of Linear, Jira, Slack, and Notion.
is not a wise move. I can see Linear and Jira and maybe Notion, but fighting with Slack just is an uphill battle. There are so many Chat platforms out there and many open source too.
Why would yours be the one to be at least on par with the likes of Slack? Which hasn't really happend for the others either.
JetBrains tried this with JetBrains Space [1] it used to be a knowledge platform and chat platform all with a code hosting platform, CI platform and a little more. But even an experienced dev company like JetBrains gave that up and focused on the core.
I think they should remove the chat part and stick to being a Jira + Notion replacement.
[1] https://www.jetbrains.com/space/
I think trying to replace all these Apps
> serves as an all-in-one replacement of Linear, Jira, Slack, and Notion.
is not a wise move. I can see Linear and Jira and maybe Notion, but fighting with Slack just is an uphill battle. There are so many Chat platforms out there and many open source too.
Why would yours be the one to be at least on par with the likes of Slack? Which hasn't really happend for the others either.
JetBrains tried this with JetBrains Space [1] it used to be a knowledge platform and chat platform all with a code hosting platform, CI platform and a little more. But even an experienced dev company like JetBrains gave that up and focused on the core.
I think they should remove the chat part and stick to being a Jira + Notion replacement.
[1] https://www.jetbrains.com/space/
I don't think we should discount a competing product's existence just because it's a David and Goliath situation. If we all had your mindset we'd still be using MSN Chat on Windows XP or something.
Before JIRA became ubiquitous, before Slack even existed, I used to set up company's tools with MediaWiki, Jenkins, IRC, Redmine and GitWeb. The reason I'd choose these is because I knew more or less how to install them. It wasn't based on any sort of comparison of features etc.
Looking back at those days, I'd still take IRC over Slack any time. Just for the self-hosting part, but also because of better integration, simpler interface, simpler way of extending it to fit company's needs.
I'd also take GitWeb over Gitlab, Bitbucket or Gitea. None of the extras offered by these tools add any real value. The only reason I want any Web interface to Git at all is to be able to link to the code from Wiki / chat.
But, Jenkins turned out to be a really bad pick. And so is Redmine. I've tried many popular CI tools, and they are all bad, so, who knows maybe this project will do it better?.. but they don't seem to tell much about how they see things working. I also haven't found a good bug-tracking tool yet. So, maybe this project will make something better? -- Let's hope.
----
Ideally, I'd prefer it if tools around project management standardized around some basic interfaces, so that no single company was tempted to create "package deals" where you choose to use crappy tools because they are packaged together with what you really want. But, I don't think it's clear to anyone what such interfaces might look like. So, this isn't happening probably in this decade... at least.
Looking back at those days, I'd still take IRC over Slack any time. Just for the self-hosting part, but also because of better integration, simpler interface, simpler way of extending it to fit company's needs.
I'd also take GitWeb over Gitlab, Bitbucket or Gitea. None of the extras offered by these tools add any real value. The only reason I want any Web interface to Git at all is to be able to link to the code from Wiki / chat.
But, Jenkins turned out to be a really bad pick. And so is Redmine. I've tried many popular CI tools, and they are all bad, so, who knows maybe this project will do it better?.. but they don't seem to tell much about how they see things working. I also haven't found a good bug-tracking tool yet. So, maybe this project will make something better? -- Let's hope.
----
Ideally, I'd prefer it if tools around project management standardized around some basic interfaces, so that no single company was tempted to create "package deals" where you choose to use crappy tools because they are packaged together with what you really want. But, I don't think it's clear to anyone what such interfaces might look like. So, this isn't happening probably in this decade... at least.
Thing is: You don't have to be on par with Slack. If that chat is "usable enough" but integrates well with the rest of the system, this can be a swelling point: Directly reference the tickets in a discussion, reassign, update, ... in a native integration.
With such an "Enterprise" system the choice of the chat tool is a lot more a too down decision, than a chat in a social group.
And it isn't like slack is perfect in all regards either ...
With such an "Enterprise" system the choice of the chat tool is a lot more a too down decision, than a chat in a social group.
And it isn't like slack is perfect in all regards either ...
The concern wouldn't be if huly chat integrates well with the rest of huly project management, video calls, docs. It would be all the other services your company uses like pagerduty, salesforce, HR apps, etc where Slack has become the "hub" for everything to integrate with.
It's all just webhooks...
I think Huly would appeal to people who find peace of mind when using one companies tool, rather than 5 companies tools to do everything they need.
Similar to how Notion became popular to people who wanted to use the same app for journaling, knowledge management and CRM, for home and work.
Hopefully Huly pulls it off, having so many features that work well isn’t an easy task.
Similar to how Notion became popular to people who wanted to use the same app for journaling, knowledge management and CRM, for home and work.
Hopefully Huly pulls it off, having so many features that work well isn’t an easy task.
> I think trying to replace all these Apps (“serves as an all-in-one replacement of Linear, Jira, Slack, and Notion”) is not a wise move.
As shown in the rendered billboard, they agree with you…
"Huly: the app for – anything – and nothing"
As shown in the rendered billboard, they agree with you…
"Huly: the app for – anything – and nothing"
I can't believe Gavin Belson is rejoining Hooli!
Consider the bulldog
Consider the elephant
I'm here for this comment
The bear is sticky with honey.
I’m kind of, by default, against meaningless animation, but your reveals and the fiery ones on the Pricing page are awesome. The plans are also generous and made for someone or a small team who needs the features but is not ready to start using all the resources, right away.
Best of Luck. Looking good so far from the first browse and scroll-around.
Best of Luck. Looking good so far from the first browse and scroll-around.
I literally just stumbled upon the designer and he posted a tutorial on the fiery pricing bento boxes: https://x.com/alex_barashkov/status/1841493887359066421
I am blown away at all of his work. He has some graphics and animation that I want to mimic for a "solar" theme I am working on.
I am blown away at all of his work. He has some graphics and animation that I want to mimic for a "solar" theme I am working on.
He billed $90k for the website, design, and motion work. Crazy.
Surely, I'm not the only one thought of Hooli and Gavin Belson?
My first thought as well :) Not sure the naming is good.
We’ve been using Plane CE and are really happy with it. For those who need a serious project management tool, I’d definitely recommend giving it a try. Huly looks interesting-might explore it in the future. I did try self-hosting, but the experience wasn’t great.
https://github.com/makeplane/plane
https://github.com/makeplane/plane
I've long wanted something similar to this. I currently use Linear as both an ATS and a CRM, and most project management can be reduced to People/Companies, Tasks/Deals, and Pipelines.
Linear is not quite flexible enough for what I need as it is too strongly in the task management camp, so I can't define a proper candidate pipeline without hacking what the "status" of each "issue" means and remembering that.
Most small companies don't need dedicated solutions for project management, ats and crm, so I'd love to combine them. But I'd be looking for something more lightweight than this, maybe even local without cloud, but at least single service with sqlite or similar.
Would be amazing if it was very customizable to let people build or customize their own pipelines from some basic building blocks, still keeping the slick and fast UI from Linear.
I agree going after Slack at the same time is too ambitious.
Linear is not quite flexible enough for what I need as it is too strongly in the task management camp, so I can't define a proper candidate pipeline without hacking what the "status" of each "issue" means and remembering that.
Most small companies don't need dedicated solutions for project management, ats and crm, so I'd love to combine them. But I'd be looking for something more lightweight than this, maybe even local without cloud, but at least single service with sqlite or similar.
Would be amazing if it was very customizable to let people build or customize their own pipelines from some basic building blocks, still keeping the slick and fast UI from Linear.
I agree going after Slack at the same time is too ambitious.
everywhere I look seems to mention a different product it's a replacement for
Landing page: " serves as an all-in-one replacement of Linear, Jira, Slack, and Notion."
Github repo: "alternative to Linear, Jira, Slack, Notion, Motion"
Github org: "Alternative to Jira, Linear, Slack, Notion, Motion, and Roam by Huly Labs"
Landing page: " serves as an all-in-one replacement of Linear, Jira, Slack, and Notion."
Github repo: "alternative to Linear, Jira, Slack, Notion, Motion"
Github org: "Alternative to Jira, Linear, Slack, Notion, Motion, and Roam by Huly Labs"
I really like that you can self host an entire project management stack these days. For my co-op we use OpenProject for Issues / Kanban but it seems it has things like time tracking, wiki, and many other features we don't use because we prefer alternatives.
For wiki / notion we use Outline. For slack, Matrix. For CRM, Espo. For code repositories, forgejo, but we don't self host it, we use codeberg.
I think this stack would probably cost us a couple thousand of dollars a month if we paid for SaaS since we have around a hundred members. Instead we pay something like 30$/month for a couple hetzner servers through elestio.
When I work full time and I get to use all the bells and whistles SaaS products like linear, sometimes I think it's cool that the tool will do something like point out I'm about to create a duplicate ticket... But thousands of dollars a month cooler? Not sure, but not my money!
For wiki / notion we use Outline. For slack, Matrix. For CRM, Espo. For code repositories, forgejo, but we don't self host it, we use codeberg.
I think this stack would probably cost us a couple thousand of dollars a month if we paid for SaaS since we have around a hundred members. Instead we pay something like 30$/month for a couple hetzner servers through elestio.
When I work full time and I get to use all the bells and whistles SaaS products like linear, sometimes I think it's cool that the tool will do something like point out I'm about to create a duplicate ticket... But thousands of dollars a month cooler? Not sure, but not my money!
idk if it's just me but if they don't' have a running demo of it I'm not even gonna spend any time unless I'm desperate
Is there any option for self host that isnt attached to the boat-anchor that is 'docker'? I want to self host this on my public self hosted environment not my LAN side self hosted environment
I am impressed by the laser border animations on the pricing page and that laser clock. Will check later how they are built. Amazing if CSS alone has advanced that far.
If I disable JS it stops working so I imagine it's not CSS? Also there are no elements really attached to it?
EDIT: Ahh it's a video, https://huly.io/videos/pages/pricing/plans/common.mp4
EDIT: Ahh it's a video, https://huly.io/videos/pages/pricing/plans/common.mp4
Interesting. Probably won't scale for each screen size and they have few "video sizes"
Amazing. All my 25 year long professional programming career the shit around project management systems never fucking stops.
Like ORMs, every programmer needs to write one.
Pick one. Stick with it.
Like ORMs, every programmer needs to write one.
Pick one. Stick with it.
Cmon, will you complain to a composer that there is a song about love already?
Interestingly, Huly is also the sponsor of the Zig programming language[1].
[1]: https://ziglang.org/
[1]: https://ziglang.org/
They are working on the next generation of Hulu in Zig. However, no final decision has been made since they are also sponsoring V (https://vlang.io) and Odin (https://odin-lang.org) :)
Kinda curious about the requirements. 4GB minimum.
Isn’t a PM platform mostly text-like?
Not criticising (gitlab manages same) just curious what’s driving that.
Isn’t a PM platform mostly text-like?
Not criticising (gitlab manages same) just curious what’s driving that.
It's almost certainly their decision to use fucking Elastic for search: <https://github.com/hcengineering/huly-selfhost/blob/1d97e9ed...>
although I'm sure mongo isn't helping matters, either < https://github.com/hcengineering/huly-selfhost/blob/1d97e9ed...>
although I'm sure mongo isn't helping matters, either < https://github.com/hcengineering/huly-selfhost/blob/1d97e9ed...>
I'm shopping for a better search engine.
Any suggestions?
Any suggestions?
I don't believe there is just one answer to that, because it really depends on your needs, existing stack, and skillset.
Disclaimer aside, I've heard very positive things about the search that ships with PostgreSQL, and similarly positive things for the few search extensions one can add (assuming extensions are available where you're running PG)
https://github.com/quickwit-oss/tantivy#features seems to be a good starting place if you want to embed search, and its https://github.com/quickwit-oss/quickwit friend comes up a lot, but be sure to bear its AGPL license in mind
Toshi is one of the ones which is striving for ES compatibility at the search level, making it a drop-in replacement https://github.com/toshi-search/Toshi#example-queries although last time I played with it, they were QUITE A WAYS away, depending on how deep one is in the ES query DSL
And then just last week <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41797041> we were blessed with Nixiesearch <https://github.com/nixiesearch/nixiesearch> which is a pretty specialized engine but will almost certainly be less resource intensive than Elastic (or it's FOSS friend OpenSearch)
Browsing https://github.com/topics/search-engine I was reminded about a bunch that I either haven't tried or I tried so long ago I don't recall their pro/con lists
https://github.com/meilisearch/meilisearch
https://github.com/typesense/typesense
https://github.com/qdrant/qdrant
https://github.com/valeriansaliou/sonic
https://github.com/manticoresoftware/manticoresearch
Disclaimer aside, I've heard very positive things about the search that ships with PostgreSQL, and similarly positive things for the few search extensions one can add (assuming extensions are available where you're running PG)
https://github.com/quickwit-oss/tantivy#features seems to be a good starting place if you want to embed search, and its https://github.com/quickwit-oss/quickwit friend comes up a lot, but be sure to bear its AGPL license in mind
Toshi is one of the ones which is striving for ES compatibility at the search level, making it a drop-in replacement https://github.com/toshi-search/Toshi#example-queries although last time I played with it, they were QUITE A WAYS away, depending on how deep one is in the ES query DSL
And then just last week <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41797041> we were blessed with Nixiesearch <https://github.com/nixiesearch/nixiesearch> which is a pretty specialized engine but will almost certainly be less resource intensive than Elastic (or it's FOSS friend OpenSearch)
Browsing https://github.com/topics/search-engine I was reminded about a bunch that I either haven't tried or I tried so long ago I don't recall their pro/con lists
https://github.com/meilisearch/meilisearch
https://github.com/typesense/typesense
https://github.com/qdrant/qdrant
https://github.com/valeriansaliou/sonic
https://github.com/manticoresoftware/manticoresearch
Site looks great and opensource moniker while replacing major products with self hosting got me really interested. Checked the github and understood svelte in frontend UI. All the best on your journey.
btw, Is video & audio conferencing built from scratch or does it need MS Teams and Zoom or can integrate with 3rd party providers?
Video conferencing in Hulu does not need Zoom, etc and currently utilizes the awesome LiveKit (https://livekit.io), which is also open source
Is there any option for self host that doesn't get attached to the boat anchor that is 'docker'??
Project management strikes me as one of those fuzzy complicated looking problems that, for some reason, are always approached as a single problem that needs one UI. In my mind it is not a single problem.
I'd try a more modular approach because IMO a substantial part of the problem is "horses for courses": PMs and developers have very different skills and requirements. Even inside those categories there is substantial variation.
I see no reason why the UI for developers has to be same as for PMs and higher ups. My ideal PM solution would involve the CLI and the notion of committing changes and being able to organize information cleverly. Efficiency, bare-boned, no fluff, no pixels that add zero information. These would all be things I am interested in.
My boss' ideal PM solution would probably involve some unholy marriage of Salesforce, Excel and CSVs without any organization whatsoever in a screen that explodes with fireworks and deliberately slows everything down and adds lag and loading screens so you feel you are doing important work. You can tell I am jaded, but my point is, fine. Let them have it. I see no reason to approach this problem with one, fixed, set of interaction patterns.
It's a common theme these days for me. Why does everything has to be so monolithic? Why is everything so samey?
I'd try a more modular approach because IMO a substantial part of the problem is "horses for courses": PMs and developers have very different skills and requirements. Even inside those categories there is substantial variation.
I see no reason why the UI for developers has to be same as for PMs and higher ups. My ideal PM solution would involve the CLI and the notion of committing changes and being able to organize information cleverly. Efficiency, bare-boned, no fluff, no pixels that add zero information. These would all be things I am interested in.
My boss' ideal PM solution would probably involve some unholy marriage of Salesforce, Excel and CSVs without any organization whatsoever in a screen that explodes with fireworks and deliberately slows everything down and adds lag and loading screens so you feel you are doing important work. You can tell I am jaded, but my point is, fine. Let them have it. I see no reason to approach this problem with one, fixed, set of interaction patterns.
It's a common theme these days for me. Why does everything has to be so monolithic? Why is everything so samey?
That's why everybody has their own Jira dashboards showing different information in different structure. Which then leads to people talking about different things.
There is some need of differentiation, but also need to make sure there is shared understanding on priorities and state.
There is some need of differentiation, but also need to make sure there is shared understanding on priorities and state.
I appreciate the need for some semblance of uniformity, but surely we can read A Tale of Two Cities on both a Kindle and on paper without any substantial sacrifice in understanding. It is merely the appearance that I wish to differentiate, not the ontology.
In fact, thanks to your comment, I strengthened my conviction that the ontology needs to be foreground and center in all cases instead of the appearance(s), which receive substantial, and IMO excessive, attention.
In fact, thanks to your comment, I strengthened my conviction that the ontology needs to be foreground and center in all cases instead of the appearance(s), which receive substantial, and IMO excessive, attention.
Quite so. But bad managers have no qualms with making boss-problems and workflows something that their underlings have to deal with as well.
When I read All-In-One PM and CRM platform I must think of bitrix24, which I think is still widely used. I personally didn't like it because feature creep made the UI quite confusing.
Ah! You guys were Huly.App and this is a relaunch. I had tracked your earlier progress a few months back but forgot about it. Nice, again, best of luck.
Is it just me that when someone sells something as "everything", I immediately feels like it does nothing well?
Here is Huly's opinion on this topic: https://huly.blog/is-it-time-for-everything-apps
Your assumption is the worst case. Best case is it does the things it do "good enough".
My company uses Linear, Slack, Google Docs, Google Calendar, Monday, GitHub, Discord and more. This, if it works well, would be a godsend.
the webiste sure looks flashy
this did rounds on Twitter a while back. iirc they spent ~80k USD or similarly high amount for it
found the tweet:
> We charged $89,775 for this new @huly_io landing page
- https://x.com/alex_barashkov/status/1801219973236342910
found the tweet:
> We charged $89,775 for this new @huly_io landing page
- https://x.com/alex_barashkov/status/1801219973236342910
Huly doesn’t seem to like to work on mobile.
Why do this when you can pay for any number of SaaS products out there?
This looks really great and love that it can be self hosted. Nice!!!
Huly tut tak malo?
Is anyone using this in a team? How is the perf?
gavin belson signature edition
where can I find the api docs
I see 'Node.js' and I see something that's going to be unwieldy pretty soon.
nice landing page, looks good.
looks pretty convincing!
Deploying this requires running 5 different open source servers (databases, proxies, etc), and 5 different services that form part of this suite. If I were self-hosting this in a company I now need to be an expert in lots of different systems and potentially how to scale them, back them up, etc. The trade-offs to be made here are very different to when architecting a typical SaaS backend, where this sort of architecture might be fine.
I've been going through this myself with a hobby project. I'm designing it for self-hosting, and it's a radically different way of working to what I'm used to (operating services just for my company). I've been using SQLite and local disk storage so that there's essentially just 2 components to operate and scale – application replicas, and shared disk storage (which is easy to backup too). I'd rather be using Postgres, I'd rather be using numerous other services, background queue processors, etc, but each of those components is something that my users would need to understand, and therefore something to be minimised far more strictly than if it were just me/one team.
Huly looks like a great product, but I'm not sure I'd want to self-host.