Unfortunately, the Electric Scooters Are Fantastic(theatlantic.com)
theatlantic.com
Unfortunately, the Electric Scooters Are Fantastic
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/05/electric-scooters-are-the-cargo-shorts-of-transportation/561440/?single_page=true
266 comments
Couldn't agree more.
On repeated visits to NY, frustrated by the inefficiency of getting from A to B, one of my repeating dreams is the idea of closing every other street (both N-S and E-W) in the grid system to cars, and only allowing bikes, scooters, skateboards, and maybe buses. (Delivery traffic strictly outside daytime hours).
Imagine the transport utopia that would gradually develop, as more any more people not only feel safe to ride bikes, but realised that it represented the most efficient solution.
On repeated visits to NY, frustrated by the inefficiency of getting from A to B, one of my repeating dreams is the idea of closing every other street (both N-S and E-W) in the grid system to cars, and only allowing bikes, scooters, skateboards, and maybe buses. (Delivery traffic strictly outside daytime hours).
Imagine the transport utopia that would gradually develop, as more any more people not only feel safe to ride bikes, but realised that it represented the most efficient solution.
That sounds a little like the Barcelona superblock model, which I like. Less transit oriented and more "creating spaces for people to stay/live/eat/etc" oriented though.
https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2017/11/07/the-barcelona-...
https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2017/11/07/the-barcelona-...
Wow that is a fantastic idea that I would love to come to the States. Walking around in the city I always felt like this [0]. I have been really pushing for a car-free downtown on Sundays, its amazing how "human" you feel when you can walk around and interact without the drone and smell of traffic being a constant presence.
[0]:http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2014/12/roads.jpg....
[0]:http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2014/12/roads.jpg....
I live in Barcelona and while I personally love the Superilles, many of the locals who live near/in them hate them. They all say it's a huge inconvenience. That said, as a Canadian coming from one of the most car-centric cities in Canada (Calgary), anything that focuses on not driving is refreshingly wonderful.
I think if streets were limited to delivery traffic and construction you would be fine. Note that this needs to be real deliveries. Sort of like pornography I know it when I see it, but I'm not sure I can define it well enough for a law to work.
You could ban delivery vehicles over a certain size so that only small autonomous delivery bot could do the last 100 yards between the main drop off spot and the delivery van/truck.
Time to disrupt the notion of 'delivery': Sign up to drop off a package or two and get access to the internal city streets for x hours. What could go wrong?
That is why it is hard. Delivery needs to have a definition that doesn't allow that. Probably it needs to be so strict that a delivery driver cannot even buy a soda at the store they are delivering to.
You could define it by volume or weight of package.
Package-carrying bikes can take a surprising amount. https://www.carvelo.ch/de/private/modelle/data/51.php
Anything that can be carried by a bicycle courier, must be. Anything else, <6am or >9pm (for example).
Package-carrying bikes can take a surprising amount. https://www.carvelo.ch/de/private/modelle/data/51.php
Anything that can be carried by a bicycle courier, must be. Anything else, <6am or >9pm (for example).
In Groningen, NL deliveries to inner city shops and restaurants is limited to timeslots ( something like up to 11h00 ).
I like this but I think we could go further in that we probably don't need 4 lanes for bikes and scooters. It would be super awesome to turn these center lanes into a space for food trucks or farmers markets, etc. It would be interesting to have just two lanes in each direction like this that formed a square or rectangle and see what happens.
Absolutely right - imagine the streets with walkways, gardens, kiosks, playgrounds, etc. The NY Highline concept could spread throughout the city.
this is happenning. more and more streets in Manhattan are being closed to traffic and they become just walking places. For an example, look at a good chunk of Broadway around Time Square. If I remember correctly, some urban planner told Mayor Bloomberg about the Copenhagen model, and he liked it, and we embarked in a multi-decade plan to move in that direction.
Reducing car traffic and increasing pedestrian walking areas in NYC is very good. However, bike lanes are not a real answer. NYC needs better subway systems... more lines and more on time.
If I recall correctly some residential parts of Seattle have a system like this. They don't outright disallow cars, but every other street is full of sufficient traffic calming measures that make it highly undesirable to drive down.
Portland, OR has a number of these "bike boulevards". They make a huge difference. It's not every other street. But given a car-heavy street that is a major path from A to B, a parallel one block away is designated. Cars are still allowed to use them, of course, but not exactly encouraged.
Frequent speed bumps are laid down, and (just like for its partner car-centric road) all cross intersections have stop signs leading _into_ the boulevard. They're generally in good surface shape. You can roll right along at full speed, mostly just watching for pedestrians (the lack of cars also makes them pleasant for walking).
Not really possible without a mostly-grid road system, of course, but where it is, it's awesome.
Frequent speed bumps are laid down, and (just like for its partner car-centric road) all cross intersections have stop signs leading _into_ the boulevard. They're generally in good surface shape. You can roll right along at full speed, mostly just watching for pedestrians (the lack of cars also makes them pleasant for walking).
Not really possible without a mostly-grid road system, of course, but where it is, it's awesome.
I recently purchased an electric bike to commute to work, and I ended up returning it. Electric bikes go very fast, which means that cars often have difficulty passing, and drivers are not quite sure how to treat you. I ended up returning the bike because I didn't want to end up as a splatter on the side of the road. If the US had protected bike lanes, it might have worked out differently.
Yep, that's a frustrating reality -- I've had my share of close calls too. Out in the suburbs there's usually a shoulder/bike lane that's wide enough for safe passing, but on city streets that are too narrow to fit a bike and a car side by side I ride right in the center of the lane. That's the only way I've found to prevent distracted drivers from zooming past with only inches to spare.
You could just go slower... Get a pedal assist version and turn the assist down.
Or go faster and get an electric motorbike or Vespa and ride in the middle of the lane with traffic.
Or go faster and get an electric motorbike or Vespa and ride in the middle of the lane with traffic.
That was my experience as well, both in Bay Area and in Bavaria (though it's not as dangerous here). I realized that I'm guaranteed to have a serious or deadly accident over just a decade of commuting. In a car you have 2 more layers of protection - the mass of the car and safety systems.
This exists in most major cities in China and it’s absolutely brilliant. Such a quality of life improvement.
The Netherlands is quite interesting in that separate bike lanes are already a thing in most cities, which means that the step to applying those to inter-city roads with the advent of electric bicycles is a relatively small one, so there's a lot of movement in that direction now. At certain locations electric bicycles are already a far more common sight among commuters, and it'll be interesting to see how that growth continues in the next few years.
[deleted]
Aren't intersections the most dangerous spot for bikes/scooters, though? (car makes right-hand turn into bike going straight)
[Random pet peeve: when a clearly-marked bike lane ends and combines into car lane, and still, bicyclists insist on filtering up the side of the curb up to the stop line. Please, don't)
[Random pet peeve: when a clearly-marked bike lane ends and combines into car lane, and still, bicyclists insist on filtering up the side of the curb up to the stop line. Please, don't)
The first thing you said is the reason cyclists do the second.
The biggest risk is a car turning into you at the junction because you were in a blind spot. It's much safer to be at the front of the queue so you are clearly visible, and can clear the danger zone ahead of the traffic.
Also, in general, things you see cyclists doing that you perceive as dangerous very rarely are - almost every serious bike car crash is because the driver didn't see the cyclist and turned into them. The cyclist behaving most dangerously is timidly hugging the curb trying to stay out of your way!
The biggest risk is a car turning into you at the junction because you were in a blind spot. It's much safer to be at the front of the queue so you are clearly visible, and can clear the danger zone ahead of the traffic.
Also, in general, things you see cyclists doing that you perceive as dangerous very rarely are - almost every serious bike car crash is because the driver didn't see the cyclist and turned into them. The cyclist behaving most dangerously is timidly hugging the curb trying to stay out of your way!
When no dedicated bike lane is provided, cyclists are governed by the same rules as motorcyclists. That means that they can (and should) take up the full lane just as a car would, but actually doing that tends to evoke negative responses from car drivers. In jurisdictions that allow it, lane splitting is both faster and less likely to trigger road rage, though probably more dangerous.
At least in SF, they protect the bike lanes sometimes - no right on red, at least, when there's a protected bike lane.
Re filtering, is that technically against the rules? It's a single lane at that point, but in CA it's legal to share the lane if there's room. Seems like a cyclist or motorbike has the right to lanesplit and move up.
Re filtering, is that technically against the rules? It's a single lane at that point, but in CA it's legal to share the lane if there's room. Seems like a cyclist or motorbike has the right to lanesplit and move up.
> Seems like a cyclist or motorbike has the right to lanesplit and move up.
Yes, but in this case you filter on the driver's left. You don't filter up in the 10cm between the curb and the car when the driver is signaling right; it's a dick move and eventually you're going to get hurt.
http://www.sfbike.org/news/bike-lanes-and-right-turns/
Yes, but in this case you filter on the driver's left. You don't filter up in the 10cm between the curb and the car when the driver is signaling right; it's a dick move and eventually you're going to get hurt.
http://www.sfbike.org/news/bike-lanes-and-right-turns/
Fair enough, but honestly this seems like far less of a problem than the large fraction of drivers who don't know how to turn properly in the first place, and just make that right turn without having merged into the bike lane.
I commuted in SF for a year, and I'd guess 75% of cars don't know why the bike lane starts getting dashed before an intersection.
I commuted in SF for a year, and I'd guess 75% of cars don't know why the bike lane starts getting dashed before an intersection.
Protected intersections are also a good idea, yes.
can they succeed despite their essential dorkiness?
Far less dorky than a Segway. I think they're playful enough to work from a marketing perspective.
I was bored with new technologies, bored with their repetitive promises, their glassy aesthetic, their oligarchic subsidization.
This sentence is fantastic and absolutely on point! The street finds its own uses for technology.
On that first ride, a few things became apparent. First, I was more likely to respect traffic laws on a scooter than on a bike, because I wasn’t as worried about conserving my momentum on a scooter.
This is a profound observation. Robinson just earned his pay for the week! (A no prize for someone who understands that reference.) What if virtually all bikes had capacitors, regenerative braking, and electric assist? There would be no reason for the endless "momentum hacks" bicyclists are guilty of.
Far less dorky than a Segway. I think they're playful enough to work from a marketing perspective.
I was bored with new technologies, bored with their repetitive promises, their glassy aesthetic, their oligarchic subsidization.
This sentence is fantastic and absolutely on point! The street finds its own uses for technology.
On that first ride, a few things became apparent. First, I was more likely to respect traffic laws on a scooter than on a bike, because I wasn’t as worried about conserving my momentum on a scooter.
This is a profound observation. Robinson just earned his pay for the week! (A no prize for someone who understands that reference.) What if virtually all bikes had capacitors, regenerative braking, and electric assist? There would be no reason for the endless "momentum hacks" bicyclists are guilty of.
Those "momentum hacks" like the Idaho stop have been shown to improve cyclist safety.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop
Yeah, it seems like all the little stuff, bikes, ebikes, and electric scooters should Idaho stop.
The stuff that kills people should have to do the full stop.
The stuff that kills people should have to do the full stop.
Yeah, it seems like all the little stuff, bikes, ebikes, and electric scooters should Idaho stop.
Idaho stopping is really just a hacky manual substitute for electric assist and automatic stabilization wheels. It's one that has an unfortunate slippery slope built into it.
Idaho stopping is really just a hacky manual substitute for electric assist and automatic stabilization wheels. It's one that has an unfortunate slippery slope built into it.
It isn't.
It separates bike traffic from car traffic.
I had a fairly long commute that was punctuated by a set of lights. If I rode up to the red and waited for the green, I ended up passing and getting passed by countless numbers of the same set of cars during this stretch of road. If I blew the red, and got ahead of the pack of cars, I exposed myself to 1/10 the number of collision instances.
It separates bike traffic from car traffic.
I had a fairly long commute that was punctuated by a set of lights. If I rode up to the red and waited for the green, I ended up passing and getting passed by countless numbers of the same set of cars during this stretch of road. If I blew the red, and got ahead of the pack of cars, I exposed myself to 1/10 the number of collision instances.
As someone who doesn’t cycle this is mind boggling. Obviously if you arbitrarily pick which laws you follow you will be better off. I can’t stand cyclists they observe laws like pedestrians when it’s convenient but want to be treated and afforded all the same space on the roadways as cars.
It isn't arbitrary, it minimizes the chance of a car/bicycle collision. Most car drivers are bad at interacting with cyclists. The downside for someone in a car is a messed up bumper and scratched paint, the downside for a cyclist is injury or death.
Bicycles are in a 3rd place between motor vehicles and pedestrians, of course they can transition between modes in ways that cars or pedestrians cannot. So can people on skateboards, skates and the myriad of personal electric vehicles.
I am extremely cognizant of how I operate a bicycle around pedestrians, the onus should be on the person operating the dangerous device in the interaction.
Cars don't own the road. Look at the history of jay walking and how the person car dynamic has changed over time.
https://www.vox.com/2015/1/15/7551873/jaywalking-history
Bicycles are in a 3rd place between motor vehicles and pedestrians, of course they can transition between modes in ways that cars or pedestrians cannot. So can people on skateboards, skates and the myriad of personal electric vehicles.
I am extremely cognizant of how I operate a bicycle around pedestrians, the onus should be on the person operating the dangerous device in the interaction.
Cars don't own the road. Look at the history of jay walking and how the person car dynamic has changed over time.
https://www.vox.com/2015/1/15/7551873/jaywalking-history
Your living a pipe dream if you think that a bike, ebike, or electric scooter can't kill someone. 180lbs going 15-20MPH smashing into someone who is unaware, someone who is elderly or very young, etc etc. Rolling stops should be done much much slower than that I'm aware, however the problem is peoples perception of what they can get away with furthers then... currently the LAW is to STOP but instead people roll cause they feel they can get away with it, when the LAW is to ROLL they will start to blow through it (many already do anyway)...
In Idaho the LAW is for bikes to treat stop signs as yield signs, so they must slow and be prepared to stop. They are still at fault for crashing into someone. Colorado and Delaware have similar laws.
14 pedestrians were killed in SF traffic accidents last year, all by cars. 0 by bikes. Bikers in SF aren't cited for rolling stops so we are already living in the Idaho stop world. It is very safe. [1]
Bikers should indeed be very observant when approaching crosswalks and intersections. And they usually are, because if nothing else, their lives depend on it.
[1] http://visionzerosf.org/
14 pedestrians were killed in SF traffic accidents last year, all by cars. 0 by bikes. Bikers in SF aren't cited for rolling stops so we are already living in the Idaho stop world. It is very safe. [1]
Bikers should indeed be very observant when approaching crosswalks and intersections. And they usually are, because if nothing else, their lives depend on it.
[1] http://visionzerosf.org/
[deleted]
Couple of years ago I was stopped by police for not making full stop. Wasn't cited, just verbal warning, but still..
Also what sucks was the fact that bunch of people in front of me just flew through the stop sign without even slowing down, and then me, who slows down at every stop to almost full stop (just short of tilting the bike and putting leg on the ground) was stopped by police car behind me.
Also what sucks was the fact that bunch of people in front of me just flew through the stop sign without even slowing down, and then me, who slows down at every stop to almost full stop (just short of tilting the bike and putting leg on the ground) was stopped by police car behind me.
You're supposed to spread the word to your friends as an example, but it sounds like the lesson learned is to fly through the intersection even faster so you're harder to be stopped by the police.
[deleted]
14 pedestrians were killed in SF traffic accidents last year, all by cars. 0 by bikes
How many bike riders got themselves killed in intersections?
Bikers should indeed be very observant when approaching crosswalks and intersections. And they usually are, because if nothing else, their lives depend on it.
And yet, I keep on running into situations where I think to myself, "How in the hell do you think you can survive while doing that!?" Here's the thing. The level of lack-of-foresight that makes someone a cringey inconsiderate nuisance in a car is about the same lack-of-foresight that makes someone a likely organ donor on a bike.
Tongue in cheek tinfoil hat stuff: Maybe the bike trend is just a machination of aging oligarchs who want to ensure transplant organ supplies? Biking is popular in exactly the places where the population is healthier (better donors) and left leaning (more likely to donate.)
How many bike riders got themselves killed in intersections?
Bikers should indeed be very observant when approaching crosswalks and intersections. And they usually are, because if nothing else, their lives depend on it.
And yet, I keep on running into situations where I think to myself, "How in the hell do you think you can survive while doing that!?" Here's the thing. The level of lack-of-foresight that makes someone a cringey inconsiderate nuisance in a car is about the same lack-of-foresight that makes someone a likely organ donor on a bike.
Tongue in cheek tinfoil hat stuff: Maybe the bike trend is just a machination of aging oligarchs who want to ensure transplant organ supplies? Biking is popular in exactly the places where the population is healthier (better donors) and left leaning (more likely to donate.)
1 cyclist was killed by a criminal driving recklessly beyond speed limit on JFK, and was near a T-shaped intersection and was riding in the parking/shoulder lane.
1 cyclist was killed in a SOMA intersection by a DUI operator through no fault of her own with legal right-of-way.
1 cyclist was killed in a SOMA intersection by a DUI operator through no fault of her own with legal right-of-way.
> currently the LAW is to STOP but instead people roll cause they feel they can get away with it, when the LAW is to ROLL they will start to blow through it (many already do anyway)...
Not true IME, but it may be a cultural difference. Stop signs are relatively uncommon in Finland. I can only recall one intersection with a stop sign in my previous home town of about 20k people. I have not found any stop signs yet in my new place with 140k people.
Most intersections have yield signs or lights; only the smallest of streets have no signs whatsoever.
Traffic works pretty well and I don't really see people dangerously blowing through intersections. Cyclists and pedestrians in particular can be too careful as they often stop and wait for a car to go by even though the car is supposed to yield.
I'm all for letting them roll through stop signs and red lights as long as they pay attention and respect the yield rules.
Not true IME, but it may be a cultural difference. Stop signs are relatively uncommon in Finland. I can only recall one intersection with a stop sign in my previous home town of about 20k people. I have not found any stop signs yet in my new place with 140k people.
Most intersections have yield signs or lights; only the smallest of streets have no signs whatsoever.
Traffic works pretty well and I don't really see people dangerously blowing through intersections. Cyclists and pedestrians in particular can be too careful as they often stop and wait for a car to go by even though the car is supposed to yield.
I'm all for letting them roll through stop signs and red lights as long as they pay attention and respect the yield rules.
In Britain, stop signs are intentionally kept very rare, so that when you see one you stop. It's not always obvious what the danger is until it would have been to late to stop otherwise.
Fun fact, each new stop sign must be approved, in writing, by the Secretary of State (a government minister!)
That's very interesting. I've been to a few places in the U.S. where many, many intersections had no signage. To me it seemed absolutely crazy, but maybe the thinking was the same as the British practice: "this way people will have to pay attention".
Most EU countries have a base rule: you have to yield to traffic coming on your right hand side unless signs tell you otherwise.
Well, no signage is really easy because we have the base rule of yielding to traffic coming from right. It works fine in a mesh of small residential streets where you can expect all of the intersections to work the same way.
The problem I have with this is that I have no idea whether any given intersection in town is going to have signs or not. I can make educated guesses that work well most of the time, but I'd prefer to make fewer guesses in traffic. If you don't have a yield sign, you have to look out for the gray backside of a yield sign for the road on the right. It may or may not be there. Depending on angle, position, background, weather, dirt, snow, ..., it can be hard to spot.
I don't know how much people pay attention. I get the impression that locals simply memorize each intersection. This can lead to some interesting scenes when the signs and rules are changed.
When you're in a new place, well, you're stuck scanning for the backsides of yield signs again. I find it rather stressful; it'd be nicer to be able to fully focus on the traffic and lanes & route ahead.
Here's one example. The street on the right looks smaller than the road ahead, so you can make the educated guess that they have to yield. And indeed they do -- you find the triangle sign on the lamp post just beyond the crosswalk.
https://www.google.com/maps/@62.2487495,25.7497856,3a,75y,13...
Another small street on the right. You can, again, guess that they have the yield sign, but you cannot see it until you're very close to the intersection as the brick building is blocking the view. It's a 40kph road where locals often go a little faster. At that speed, you may kinda have to slam the brakes to yield to sudden incoming traffic. If you're not local, do you drive the speed limit and trust your instinct, or do you brake after every block to figure out who's going to yield?
https://www.google.com/maps/@62.3236831,27.8983542,3a,75y,14...
Same town, different street. The stubby little street on the right might look like a small parking lot, but it's not. And they have no yield sign. Even the locals regularly fail to yield around here. Luckily the speed limit here is only 20kph so it's not particularly dangerous. Shame that's not true of all the intersections that lack the signs where you'd expect them to be.
https://www.google.com/maps/@62.3143408,27.8768849,3a,75y,32...
The problem I have with this is that I have no idea whether any given intersection in town is going to have signs or not. I can make educated guesses that work well most of the time, but I'd prefer to make fewer guesses in traffic. If you don't have a yield sign, you have to look out for the gray backside of a yield sign for the road on the right. It may or may not be there. Depending on angle, position, background, weather, dirt, snow, ..., it can be hard to spot.
I don't know how much people pay attention. I get the impression that locals simply memorize each intersection. This can lead to some interesting scenes when the signs and rules are changed.
When you're in a new place, well, you're stuck scanning for the backsides of yield signs again. I find it rather stressful; it'd be nicer to be able to fully focus on the traffic and lanes & route ahead.
Here's one example. The street on the right looks smaller than the road ahead, so you can make the educated guess that they have to yield. And indeed they do -- you find the triangle sign on the lamp post just beyond the crosswalk.
https://www.google.com/maps/@62.2487495,25.7497856,3a,75y,13...
Another small street on the right. You can, again, guess that they have the yield sign, but you cannot see it until you're very close to the intersection as the brick building is blocking the view. It's a 40kph road where locals often go a little faster. At that speed, you may kinda have to slam the brakes to yield to sudden incoming traffic. If you're not local, do you drive the speed limit and trust your instinct, or do you brake after every block to figure out who's going to yield?
https://www.google.com/maps/@62.3236831,27.8983542,3a,75y,14...
Same town, different street. The stubby little street on the right might look like a small parking lot, but it's not. And they have no yield sign. Even the locals regularly fail to yield around here. Luckily the speed limit here is only 20kph so it's not particularly dangerous. Shame that's not true of all the intersections that lack the signs where you'd expect them to be.
https://www.google.com/maps/@62.3143408,27.8768849,3a,75y,32...
That's interesting.
In Denmark the minor/major road is marked using "yield" signs drawn on the road:
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6869206,12.4609582,3a,75y,26...
As it also in in Britain:
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.402404,-2.1741907,3a,75y,230...
or like this: https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4030975,-2.1705867,3a,75y,34...
From memory, that's also the case in several other European countries.
In Denmark the minor/major road is marked using "yield" signs drawn on the road:
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6869206,12.4609582,3a,75y,26...
As it also in in Britain:
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.402404,-2.1741907,3a,75y,230...
or like this: https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4030975,-2.1705867,3a,75y,34...
From memory, that's also the case in several other European countries.
Oh, that's cool.
I guess the reason we don't rely on road marks so much is that they're covered by snow & ice half the year. That plus frost heaving & constant snow plowing & studded tyres are very effective at erasing the road markings.
I guess the reason we don't rely on road marks so much is that they're covered by snow & ice half the year. That plus frost heaving & constant snow plowing & studded tyres are very effective at erasing the road markings.
They can, as can other pedestrians, and even a little chihuahua dog can trip someone and kill them... But bike-bike and bike-pedestrian deaths are so rare that they make front page news (and in SF, the Bucchere case from 15 years ago is always brought up when people want to point out how dangerous bikes are).
Yet cars kill about 20 people a year in SF, and people just shrug and ignore it.
Yet cars kill about 20 people a year in SF, and people just shrug and ignore it.
[deleted]
> currently the LAW is to STOP but instead people roll cause they feel they can get away with it, when the LAW is to ROLL they will start to blow through it (many already do anyway)...
Slippery slope...
Slippery slope...
...And if the law allows them to blow through they'll just start putting armor on their bikes and a bike with armor is just a car and then people will cite the armor-bikes as precedent for why cars can drive through a stop light and cats and dogs, living together, mass hysteria!!!
I think a lot of the reason why I (can't speak for others) went from a super strict traffic law observer to "slow and roll through stop signs if nobody is there" on a bike isn't just the momentum conservation, which I agree is one of the big factors, but think about this: do you really think that drivers would make a full stop, as much as they do now, if suddenly they wouldn't have access to freeways and other high speed roads with no/synchronized/very few intersections and instead would be forced to take residential roads full of stops? This factor is easy to miss for most drivers, but they can do this experiment on themselves, change their commute route to only include very low traffic (ie "safe") roads, and take that route every day, every week for a few months (it was a slow "grinding" process). Let's see then if they still continue to make a full stop as before for every one of those 20 new full STOP intersections...
do you really think that drivers would make a full stop, as much as they do now, if suddenly they wouldn't have access to freeways and other high speed roads with no/synchronized/very few intersections and instead would be forced to take residential roads full of stops?
Yes. There are drivers who never drive on freeways, and in my experience, they always come to a complete stop. My ex was one such driver for awhile.
change their commute route to only include very low traffic (ie "safe") roads, and take that route every day, every week for a few months (it was a slow "grinding" process). Let's see then if they still continue to make a full stop as before for every one of those 20 new full STOP intersections...
Even in this situation, my experience is that conscientious automobile drivers still approximate the effect of a full stop. There are some idiot automobile drivers who don't approximate the effect of a full stop, just as there are idiot bike riders. The cost-benefit conditions are simply different, and bicycle "momentum hacking" tends to take people far away from what a careful car driver would be doing.
The fact that you'd entertain such a thought about residential drivers makes me question your conscientiousness.
Yes. There are drivers who never drive on freeways, and in my experience, they always come to a complete stop. My ex was one such driver for awhile.
change their commute route to only include very low traffic (ie "safe") roads, and take that route every day, every week for a few months (it was a slow "grinding" process). Let's see then if they still continue to make a full stop as before for every one of those 20 new full STOP intersections...
Even in this situation, my experience is that conscientious automobile drivers still approximate the effect of a full stop. There are some idiot automobile drivers who don't approximate the effect of a full stop, just as there are idiot bike riders. The cost-benefit conditions are simply different, and bicycle "momentum hacking" tends to take people far away from what a careful car driver would be doing.
The fact that you'd entertain such a thought about residential drivers makes me question your conscientiousness.
Anecdote, but if you hang out in the central/outer sunset neighborhood in SF, you will see this behavior. Tons of stop signs with limited access to thoroughfares in a quiet low-traffic neighborhood. I would say well over 25% of cars do rolling stops, and every now and then you will see a driver that doesn't even bother stopping.
I would say well over 25% of cars do rolling stops
Rolling stops in cars still tend to approximate the effect of a complete stop. Rolling stops on bikes tend to approximate the effect of the stop sign not being there at all. It's two different cost/benefit situations producing two different outcomes.
Rolling stops in cars still tend to approximate the effect of a complete stop. Rolling stops on bikes tend to approximate the effect of the stop sign not being there at all. It's two different cost/benefit situations producing two different outcomes.
[Stanley Roberts' piece on this stop sign intersection gives the lie to this statement](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88neOxfa9IE). This isn't the only one he's done but it should be sufficient.
At least in SF, stop signs are proper optional. I see cars running them every day. It's just that when you see a car go 40 mph (5 over) and then slow down to 10 mph when it goes through it looks like it nearly stopped. When a cyclist goes from 15 mph to 10 mph it looks like he didn't do shit.
When I bicycle I stop fully at stop signs because I do it partly for exercise and I like practising the track stand, but I see people go through every day on my commute. If I were to bike in a hurry, I could see myself doing the slow down and treat-stop-as-yield.
Mostly there's a lot of bullshit on this topic, I've noticed. Somehow if you talk to drivers, they'll say things like "SF drivers don't know how to drive. They won't even see you before they go through a stop sign." then when the topic becomes cyclists v. drivers the narrative changes to how drivers turn into ever-correct rule followers. That seems to me that people are making an in-group v out-group distinction when they describe this, and appropriately changing their language.
I've got to tell you, I've seen it, and this "approximate the effect of a complete stop" is bullshit. Well, don't believe me, watch the video or wait at a busy trafficked intersection. (You can find good ones on the streets off Lincoln in the Sunset - heavily stop-signed and frequently violated)
At least in SF, stop signs are proper optional. I see cars running them every day. It's just that when you see a car go 40 mph (5 over) and then slow down to 10 mph when it goes through it looks like it nearly stopped. When a cyclist goes from 15 mph to 10 mph it looks like he didn't do shit.
When I bicycle I stop fully at stop signs because I do it partly for exercise and I like practising the track stand, but I see people go through every day on my commute. If I were to bike in a hurry, I could see myself doing the slow down and treat-stop-as-yield.
Mostly there's a lot of bullshit on this topic, I've noticed. Somehow if you talk to drivers, they'll say things like "SF drivers don't know how to drive. They won't even see you before they go through a stop sign." then when the topic becomes cyclists v. drivers the narrative changes to how drivers turn into ever-correct rule followers. That seems to me that people are making an in-group v out-group distinction when they describe this, and appropriately changing their language.
I've got to tell you, I've seen it, and this "approximate the effect of a complete stop" is bullshit. Well, don't believe me, watch the video or wait at a busy trafficked intersection. (You can find good ones on the streets off Lincoln in the Sunset - heavily stop-signed and frequently violated)
Rolling stops in cars “approximate” full stops closer in the sense that 5–10 miles/hour is closer to 0 than it is to the 30 miles/hour they were traveling before.
By contrast, 5–10 miles/hour on a bike is about equally far from 0 and the 15 miles/hour the bike was traveling before.
The biggest difference though is that getting hit by a car doing a rolling stop will put you in the hospital and possibly kill you.
By contrast, 5–10 miles/hour on a bike is about equally far from 0 and the 15 miles/hour the bike was traveling before.
The biggest difference though is that getting hit by a car doing a rolling stop will put you in the hospital and possibly kill you.
Perhaps I should clarify what I mean by rolling stop. The behavior I see is probably better described as a yield. The car will slow down, to 5-10 mph at the stop sign before accelerating back up to 25-35. I regularly walk through this neighborhood, and its outright dangerous. I feel much safer walking in downtown SF. My hunch is these drivers are mostly just looking for other cars and cops, as I have had a ton of close encounters as pedestrian. And to make matters worse, the streets are not very well lit at night.
The distinction seems to be that one bothers you more. The car, even if it is driven completely legally and comes to a complete stop always, is still creating more negative externalities than the bike, as long as the rider is paying attention.
Yes.
Also, if you want to share the road that goes both ways. If I have to obey the laws that keep everyone safe so should you.
Also, if you want to share the road that goes both ways. If I have to obey the laws that keep everyone safe so should you.
Easy to say. I want to see how many of the drivers stating such things would still do a full stop at an empty intersection after having biked through it hundreds of times before and it's just one of the many such stops they have on their commute route every day. Basically I want to see statistics/studies. We may conclude then that it's not the fault of the individual if the large majority of us end up bending the rules given the same circumstances but it may be the fault of the circumstances (which are in the control of cities/etc who control public infrastructure).
I want to see how many of the drivers stating such things would still do a full stop at an empty intersection after having biked through it hundreds of times before and it's just one of the many such stops they have on their commute route every day. Basically I want to see statistics/studies. We may conclude then that it's not the fault of the individual if the large majority of us end up bending the rules
So, you're entitled to bend the rules, so long as enough other people are with you? Why don't you extrapolate the Kantian Imperative on that one? This is precisely why we can't have nice things. I guess we should just give up on trash cans, and everyone should just throw everything in the street.
So, you're entitled to bend the rules, so long as enough other people are with you? Why don't you extrapolate the Kantian Imperative on that one? This is precisely why we can't have nice things. I guess we should just give up on trash cans, and everyone should just throw everything in the street.
Cool, go off and grab that data.
In the meantime though, obey the laws of the road or stay off it.
In the meantime though, obey the laws of the road or stay off it.
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Living in SF I think this is totally false. I see a bike on the street once in a blue moon (and it’s often someone riding extremely slow). Bikes literally don’t fit on most sidewalks and there are extremely clear bike lanes. Plus you can’t pick up much speed before reaching an obstacle.
I consistently see people zooming down the sidewalks on scooters because: they fit, they accelerate quickly, and they are often too slow to be in the bike lane. Personally I think this was the massive failure by these scooter companies. No one is riding them in the streets. They are on the sidewalk going 10+mph. I really don’t think people would be quite as upset if they weren’t constantly dodging scooters going down the sidewalk.
I consistently see people zooming down the sidewalks on scooters because: they fit, they accelerate quickly, and they are often too slow to be in the bike lane. Personally I think this was the massive failure by these scooter companies. No one is riding them in the streets. They are on the sidewalk going 10+mph. I really don’t think people would be quite as upset if they weren’t constantly dodging scooters going down the sidewalk.
As a daily bike commuter – I see the scooters in the bike lane all the time. I also think they go pretty fast and at the very least are small and nimble enough that I never feel like they're really in my way. I much prefer them to the docked bikes. People on docked bikes don't ride like other bike commuters, they are a nuisance and feel like more of a danger to other cyclists and traffic in general.
Anyways, I look forward to seeing how this plays out.
Anyways, I look forward to seeing how this plays out.
I've had the opposite experience -- the rental bikes are heavy and slow, but they generally go in a straight line and are easy to pass.
Scooters tend to weave across the bike lane and need to be given a wide berth when passing (not sure if it's a balance issue, or the rider is trying to avoid hitting road imperfections with those tiny 4" wheels)
Scooters tend to weave across the bike lane and need to be given a wide berth when passing (not sure if it's a balance issue, or the rider is trying to avoid hitting road imperfections with those tiny 4" wheels)
> (not sure if it's a balance issue, or the rider is trying to avoid hitting road imperfections with those tiny 4" wheels)
Yes.
Source: was riding on a scooter to work for a couple of years. If wheels are made of plastic instead of rubber and air, you can feel every tooth filling on the smallest unevenness.
Yes.
Source: was riding on a scooter to work for a couple of years. If wheels are made of plastic instead of rubber and air, you can feel every tooth filling on the smallest unevenness.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I assume this is a function of when/where we're on the road. I myself swerve once in a while because there are a few giant pits on 3rd in SOMA :)
I assume this is a function of when/where we're on the road. I myself swerve once in a while because there are a few giant pits on 3rd in SOMA :)
Also those docked bikes weigh somewhere on the order of five tonnes and even strong riders move slow up hills on them. I'm stuck behind them far more often than electric scooters.
>>> People on docked bikes don't ride like other bike commuters, they are a nuisance and feel like more of a danger to other cyclists and traffic in general.
A know annoyance to all car drivers: Tourists. Their RVs spoil every mountain highway. Their rental cars slow down every bridge. Their docker bikes slow down bike lanes. And their lackadaisical meandering on foot slows down airports. Anyone who is looking at the view should be legally obligated to get out of the way of anyone trying to get to work.
A know annoyance to all car drivers: Tourists. Their RVs spoil every mountain highway. Their rental cars slow down every bridge. Their docker bikes slow down bike lanes. And their lackadaisical meandering on foot slows down airports. Anyone who is looking at the view should be legally obligated to get out of the way of anyone trying to get to work.
Sorry I'm trying to enjoy my vacation in the city that you're the sole owner and arbiter of. Next time I spend thousands of dollars to visit, I'll make sure not to enjoy anything or look at anything in case it accidentally inconveniences you. I understand you're a very important person with very important things to do.
You can meander, gawk, and enjoy things all you want, but it's not necessary to stop in the middle of the sidewalk or weave around unpredictably to do any of that.
It's not taking "ownership" of a city, most of what he mentioned is just about avoiding being in the way when occupying a shared space. It's basic manners.
It's not taking "ownership" of a city, most of what he mentioned is just about avoiding being in the way when occupying a shared space. It's basic manners.
Point taken, but you should probably familiarize yourself a little bit with the road patterns of places you visit. For example, the green lanes painted on the road in Manhattan are neither "cab hailing lanes" nor the "special pedestrian lanes" that (usually grumpy) tourists seem to think they are.
-anyone frustrated by people with luggage walking in the middle of the road.
-anyone frustrated by people with luggage walking in the middle of the road.
My point of view certainly isn't that extreme. I prefer people on docked bikes over having more cars on the road. I just would also like to see them wearing helmets, being conscious of others on bikes and generally being better citizens. I realize this could apply to lots of interactions :)
You live under a rock, not in SF. I live in SF and I constantly see scooters riding both on streets and on sidewalks. "No one is riding them in the streets" is absolutely false.
When I was there a few weeks back, it looked like about 50-50 streets/sidewalks to me.
Obviously not EVERYONE is. I think it’s pretty clear that I mean most people are. Do you take everything literally? I doubt that strategy works well in the workplace or life
No one is riding them in the streets. They are on the sidewalk going 10+mph.
Sorry to pile on, but that didn't sound to me like you're saying that some are riding in the street and some aren't.
Sorry to pile on, but that didn't sound to me like you're saying that some are riding in the street and some aren't.
[deleted]
Living in SF I think this is totally false. I see a bike on the street once in a blue moon
In Houston, I'd see bike "momentum hacks" often in all the occasions I'd see a bike. You don't see them that often, but they are often alarming, sometimes catastrophic, and sometimes fatal. I recently saw SF helmet-cam footage of an intelligent, conscientious biking coworker, who decided to pass a van on the right, only to find that the van was turning right. While trying to make a left in busy traffic, I was ambushed by a bike-bro in North Beach. If I spotted him a fraction of a second later, he would have been catapulted by the instant torque of an electric car.
"Momentum hacks" are not that frequent, but given the relative infrequency of cyclists as compared to cars, the frequency of severe flirting with catastrophe is quite alarming. They cause vehicle operators who are 100X more fragile to act as if they were nigh invulnerable.
In Houston, I'd see bike "momentum hacks" often in all the occasions I'd see a bike. You don't see them that often, but they are often alarming, sometimes catastrophic, and sometimes fatal. I recently saw SF helmet-cam footage of an intelligent, conscientious biking coworker, who decided to pass a van on the right, only to find that the van was turning right. While trying to make a left in busy traffic, I was ambushed by a bike-bro in North Beach. If I spotted him a fraction of a second later, he would have been catapulted by the instant torque of an electric car.
"Momentum hacks" are not that frequent, but given the relative infrequency of cyclists as compared to cars, the frequency of severe flirting with catastrophe is quite alarming. They cause vehicle operators who are 100X more fragile to act as if they were nigh invulnerable.
The right turning van is the most common form of bike/vehicle collision. The right hook is easy to anticipate and guard against, and every cyclist should be aware of the hazard.
> I recently saw SF helmet-cam footage of an intelligent, conscientious biking coworker, who decided to pass a van on the right, only to find that the van was turning right. While trying to make a left in busy traffic, I was ambushed by a bike-bro in North Beach
I can't speak to those locations but FYI, in Massachusetts, the driver would be eligible for a citation in those instances, even without a collision. Turning traffic always yields right of way to straight-through traffic.
Speaking with cyclists who practice such "momentum hacks", I often get the response along the lines of "Even obeying the law, drivers nearly kill me every day so what good is the law?".
I can't speak to those locations but FYI, in Massachusetts, the driver would be eligible for a citation in those instances, even without a collision. Turning traffic always yields right of way to straight-through traffic.
Speaking with cyclists who practice such "momentum hacks", I often get the response along the lines of "Even obeying the law, drivers nearly kill me every day so what good is the law?".
I don't know MA law but I'm skeptical that a bike passing on the shoulder of the outside lane has right-away over a car making a legal right turn. If the car wasn't in the outside through traffic lane then that would be an illegal right anywhere.
The biggest conflict with cars & bikes I see is spacing; either bikes move to the side and let cars pull up or (more likely) bikes swim up through traffic to the front. The biker is always the loser.
Speed differential is the other conflict, with bike &cars, bikes & pedestrians, fast bikes & slow bikes. Either the vehicles have an inherent diff, or the terrain is too fast/slow for one of the parties. Your best bet is too assume the worst of everyone else and try and keep the interaction in perspective of the bigger picture.
The biggest conflict with cars & bikes I see is spacing; either bikes move to the side and let cars pull up or (more likely) bikes swim up through traffic to the front. The biker is always the loser.
Speed differential is the other conflict, with bike &cars, bikes & pedestrians, fast bikes & slow bikes. Either the vehicles have an inherent diff, or the terrain is too fast/slow for one of the parties. Your best bet is too assume the worst of everyone else and try and keep the interaction in perspective of the bigger picture.
> I don't know MA law but I'm skeptical that a bike passing on the shoulder of the outside lane has right-away over a car making a legal right turn. If the car wasn't in the outside through traffic lane then that would be an illegal right anywhere.
In MA, bikes may explicitly ride to the right of cars if desired. Cars may pass bikes on the shoulder if "safe and reasonable" but peculiarly, that language is omitted for bikes.
More here: http://www.massbike.org/laws
> Speed differential is the other conflict, with bike &cars, bikes & pedestrians, fast bikes & slow bikes. Either the vehicles have an inherent diff, or the terrain is too fast/slow for one of the parties. Your best bet is too assume the worst of everyone else and try and keep the interaction in perspective of the bigger picture.
In Boston, you'd be a fool not to assume the worst of everyone else ;).
In MA, bikes may explicitly ride to the right of cars if desired. Cars may pass bikes on the shoulder if "safe and reasonable" but peculiarly, that language is omitted for bikes.
More here: http://www.massbike.org/laws
> Speed differential is the other conflict, with bike &cars, bikes & pedestrians, fast bikes & slow bikes. Either the vehicles have an inherent diff, or the terrain is too fast/slow for one of the parties. Your best bet is too assume the worst of everyone else and try and keep the interaction in perspective of the bigger picture.
In Boston, you'd be a fool not to assume the worst of everyone else ;).
Do bikes in MA have a right to pass a left turning car in the far left lane? That would be surprising.
For right turns it makes sense since the bike nominally has a travel lane that’s being crossed.
(I’m interpreting GP’s comment as if both the car and bike were traveling in the same direction.)
For right turns it makes sense since the bike nominally has a travel lane that’s being crossed.
(I’m interpreting GP’s comment as if both the car and bike were traveling in the same direction.)
That seems like a extremely unlikely scenario to me but I suppose it's possible. I've seen bikes pass on the left but only to make a left turn in gridlocked traffic. But then again, crossing the double yellow to pass is a common practice for drivers as well.
> I see a bike on the street once in a blue moon
What? There is a huge population of cyclists out there. Do you live on top of a hill?
What? There is a huge population of cyclists out there. Do you live on top of a hill?
I think they meant "sidewalk", given the rest of the context.
Nah, the scooters are fast enough for the bike lane. They are so new that we dont have a social compact to govern them. They are a great innovation and will help over all with life in the city. Over time the social contract will be eatablished and responsible folks, that is most folks, will observe the safe amd normative behavior scooter use needs.
Too slow to be in the bike lane seems an odd complaint; in bike-heavy cities like Copenhagen or Amsterdam, the average bike speed is only like 10mph. 14-15 would put you among the faster cyclists in urban areas (granted, people there probably could go faster, but bike traffic/frequent stops means there not much point).
It's false that nobody is riding them in the streets; plainly false. There is constant scooter traffic on Market St. in the bike lanes and in car lanes.
Not addressing scooters because I haven't encountered many of them, I will say though that I have a burning hatred for e-bikes (specifically the ones they try to come off with the Vespa look).... at least the way they are handled in my area (Ontario, Canada).
They require no license to ride, they are easily modifiable to go above the recommended speed, and seem to attract owners who have no safety concerns in their head at all (not wearing proper gear, having no clue how to operate in traffic, etc)... most often they become the vehicle of choice for people who have had their licenses taken away due to DUI charges.
While every group (drivers, cyclists, etc) have things people can point to and complain about I've never seen a group so disrespectful of others on the road, so clueless to their surroundings, and have as little grasp of basic safety as the majority of e-bike users on the road.
My opinion is if it is powered by anything other than your own legs it should be classified the same as a moped and require insurance, some sort of training and licensing to be allowed on the road.
They require no license to ride, they are easily modifiable to go above the recommended speed, and seem to attract owners who have no safety concerns in their head at all (not wearing proper gear, having no clue how to operate in traffic, etc)... most often they become the vehicle of choice for people who have had their licenses taken away due to DUI charges.
While every group (drivers, cyclists, etc) have things people can point to and complain about I've never seen a group so disrespectful of others on the road, so clueless to their surroundings, and have as little grasp of basic safety as the majority of e-bike users on the road.
My opinion is if it is powered by anything other than your own legs it should be classified the same as a moped and require insurance, some sort of training and licensing to be allowed on the road.
As a driver I much prefer ebikes of any style to regular bicyclists. Even at 20mph they are fast enough that I don't feel agitated that I'm behind a lethargic turtle in my lane. City traffic often goes at about 20mph between lights in any case.
As a former rider of a "Vespa ebike" I find that it also seem much safer as a rider than a regular bicycle because I could most keep up with traffic and I could easily monitor traffic around me because I wasn't pedaling and switching gears and what have you.
Personally I feel the ebike, Vespa like or otherwise, is the future of city transportation. It's energy efficient, sweat free and all that most single occupancy vehicle drivers need to go about their daily tasks. If most people started riding them they would instantly become much safer as well.
As a former rider of a "Vespa ebike" I find that it also seem much safer as a rider than a regular bicycle because I could most keep up with traffic and I could easily monitor traffic around me because I wasn't pedaling and switching gears and what have you.
Personally I feel the ebike, Vespa like or otherwise, is the future of city transportation. It's energy efficient, sweat free and all that most single occupancy vehicle drivers need to go about their daily tasks. If most people started riding them they would instantly become much safer as well.
I've ridden the electric scooters a few times and while I understand the joy the author found I disliked them compared to other options.
I honestly think the electric bikes (Jump/GoBikes) that are coming out are better options. For one you can go faster and further for cheaper than the scooters.
Also the safety issues, I felt much more unstable on the scooter than anything else. I almost ate it when i rolled over a small pothole.
I honestly think the electric bikes (Jump/GoBikes) that are coming out are better options. For one you can go faster and further for cheaper than the scooters.
Also the safety issues, I felt much more unstable on the scooter than anything else. I almost ate it when i rolled over a small pothole.
Pothole? I lip on a sidewalk slab is enough to dump a scooter.
> The street finds its own uses for technology.
Nice :).
"[..] the street finds its own uses for things." -- Gibson
Nice :).
"[..] the street finds its own uses for things." -- Gibson
One of the reasons Segway failed (and what might stop electric scooter's expansion) is legal problems. A Segway wasn't a road vehicle, but it also wasn't legal on sidewalks either (in many places) leaving it in a legal grey area.
A lot of traffic codes have specific rules and allowances for bicycles. They're allowed on the road but without a lot of the normal requirements (license plates, registration, insurance, etc). Segway (and other similar new vehicles) have no such exception, but also aren't eligible for those things.
What I am getting at is, in some places, you could get a ticket for using a Segway on the sidewalk AND public road. Meaning it was essentially limited to private property only. That's a problem.
PS - Electric bikes kind of skirted around the law by looking and acting like a regular bicycle, and not exceeding their speed. But even that hasn't been without issues.
PPS - In some places Segways are legal via exceptions made for electric wheelchairs on sidewalks.
A lot of traffic codes have specific rules and allowances for bicycles. They're allowed on the road but without a lot of the normal requirements (license plates, registration, insurance, etc). Segway (and other similar new vehicles) have no such exception, but also aren't eligible for those things.
What I am getting at is, in some places, you could get a ticket for using a Segway on the sidewalk AND public road. Meaning it was essentially limited to private property only. That's a problem.
PS - Electric bikes kind of skirted around the law by looking and acting like a regular bicycle, and not exceeding their speed. But even that hasn't been without issues.
PPS - In some places Segways are legal via exceptions made for electric wheelchairs on sidewalks.
While all this is true, I think the most glaring issue with the Segway has always been their size.
They are not small and demand a lot of space on a side-walk, unlike these 'dorky' scooters which share the same profile of a standard bike.
They are not small and demand a lot of space on a side-walk, unlike these 'dorky' scooters which share the same profile of a standard bike.
Does a Segway really take more space than a bike? Bikes are big. Like really big. They're far longer than a human is long, they carry momentum and cannot start or stop quickly, and they have a very wide turning radius so they can't maneuver around obstacles easily, which just increases their actual size. Meanwhile Segways, being electric, can start and stop on a dime, and can rotate in place to maneuver around obstacles.
I think the problem with Segways isn't their size, its their difficulty of operation. People bumbling around on Segways is the problem, not their size. Their size isn't really any wider than a average person's shoulder width. The average male shoulder width is 18.5", Segway is 25", which coincidentally is the same width as the average bike handlebars. Meanwhile a bicycle is as long as an average human is tall.
I think the problem with Segways isn't their size, its their difficulty of operation. People bumbling around on Segways is the problem, not their size. Their size isn't really any wider than a average person's shoulder width. The average male shoulder width is 18.5", Segway is 25", which coincidentally is the same width as the average bike handlebars. Meanwhile a bicycle is as long as an average human is tall.
> Does a Segway really take more space than a bike? Bikes are big. Like really big. They're far longer than a human is long
The problem is that segways are wide, they take a lot of transverse space which is generally at a premium: at the scale of a street, length is infinite but width is limited.
Worse, they take that space very low on the ground which is more problematic: there are obstacles at ground-level which don't exist at handlebar-level and it's outside the normal field of vision.
> they carry momentum and cannot start or stop quickly, and they have a very wide turning radius so they can't maneuver around obstacles easily
That's an advantage for other people, because they can more easily estimate trajectories even not knowing the intents of the driver. There it helps a lot that bikes are familiar objects so people more or less know their range of behaviour.
The problem is that segways are wide, they take a lot of transverse space which is generally at a premium: at the scale of a street, length is infinite but width is limited.
Worse, they take that space very low on the ground which is more problematic: there are obstacles at ground-level which don't exist at handlebar-level and it's outside the normal field of vision.
> they carry momentum and cannot start or stop quickly, and they have a very wide turning radius so they can't maneuver around obstacles easily
That's an advantage for other people, because they can more easily estimate trajectories even not knowing the intents of the driver. There it helps a lot that bikes are familiar objects so people more or less know their range of behaviour.
>That's an advantage for other people
I agree and disagree. Why are pedestrians so great? Because they're low speed, start and stop extraordinarily quickly, change direction extraordinarily easily, and two of them bumping into each other is extraordinarily unlikely to cause even the smallest amount of damage. Try to count the number of times you've seen two pedestrians do the dance trying to figure out who is going left and who is going right to pass each other... and then try to imagine a bike or scooter doing that. You can't, because they can't.
Segways almost can, though. They can stop hard and reverse direction very easily, then rotate on a dime.
Bike have a predictable momentum and direction, sure. But pedestrians don't, and pedestrians are used to having extraordinary flexibility when it comes to obstacle avoidance. If a pedestrian walks in front of a pedestrian, you stop and/or swerve and/or contort your body to get around them. If a pedestrian walks in front of a Segway, provided the Segway can't stop (which is unlikely), maybe they get bumped or knocked down, but the Segway would likely bounce back, meaning it stops moving forward. If a pedestrian walked in front of a bicycle, at least two people are likely to get extraordinarily injured. Even if the bike stopped in time, the biker has to secure themselves since they can't autobalance like a pedestrian or Segway.
Again, I think Segways get a bad rap because 1) they were new and expensive, so everyone wrote them off as self-indulgent and they never became common enough to shake that, and 2) many people using them don't know how to pilot them (Segway tours). Bikes and scooters are both far worse transport solutions for cities, and especially for sidewalks.
I agree and disagree. Why are pedestrians so great? Because they're low speed, start and stop extraordinarily quickly, change direction extraordinarily easily, and two of them bumping into each other is extraordinarily unlikely to cause even the smallest amount of damage. Try to count the number of times you've seen two pedestrians do the dance trying to figure out who is going left and who is going right to pass each other... and then try to imagine a bike or scooter doing that. You can't, because they can't.
Segways almost can, though. They can stop hard and reverse direction very easily, then rotate on a dime.
Bike have a predictable momentum and direction, sure. But pedestrians don't, and pedestrians are used to having extraordinary flexibility when it comes to obstacle avoidance. If a pedestrian walks in front of a pedestrian, you stop and/or swerve and/or contort your body to get around them. If a pedestrian walks in front of a Segway, provided the Segway can't stop (which is unlikely), maybe they get bumped or knocked down, but the Segway would likely bounce back, meaning it stops moving forward. If a pedestrian walked in front of a bicycle, at least two people are likely to get extraordinarily injured. Even if the bike stopped in time, the biker has to secure themselves since they can't autobalance like a pedestrian or Segway.
Again, I think Segways get a bad rap because 1) they were new and expensive, so everyone wrote them off as self-indulgent and they never became common enough to shake that, and 2) many people using them don't know how to pilot them (Segway tours). Bikes and scooters are both far worse transport solutions for cities, and especially for sidewalks.
That's no doubt true, but I think the biggest problem was (and maybe is) price. They were something like $5K when they came out. I don't have hard data, but I'd be surprised if the median adult bike sold is more than $500 or $600. And the retail price of electric scooters seems to be $500.
In terms of sharing, too, I don't think it's a coincidence that the real ascension of bike and scooter shares is happening with smartphone penetration.
In terms of sharing, too, I don't think it's a coincidence that the real ascension of bike and scooter shares is happening with smartphone penetration.
Segways have long been one of my go-to examples of how new tech that doesn't fit with existing infrastructure can have a lot of adoption challenges.
The company was certainly aware of it. Hence all their lobbying.
But they really don't fit well with roads, especially where there aren't bike lanes. And they're a poor fit for sidewalks, especially if you want to go faster than walking pace. (And, if you don't, I'm not sure what their point is.)
The company was certainly aware of it. Hence all their lobbying.
But they really don't fit well with roads, especially where there aren't bike lanes. And they're a poor fit for sidewalks, especially if you want to go faster than walking pace. (And, if you don't, I'm not sure what their point is.)
Segways go as fast as bikes, are about the same size as bikes, so it make sense to just apply the rules of bikes to segways.
Of course they are motorized, so if there are special rules for slow, motorized bikes, then those should apply to segways.
Of course they are motorized, so if there are special rules for slow, motorized bikes, then those should apply to segways.
> Segways go as fast as bikes
I just had a look. My average commute speed is 24kmh on an 8 speed bike. Segways have always looked a bit slow to me and their top speed is 20kmh from what I can find. I’m calling them way slower than a push bike.
I just had a look. My average commute speed is 24kmh on an 8 speed bike. Segways have always looked a bit slow to me and their top speed is 20kmh from what I can find. I’m calling them way slower than a push bike.
I don't really have an opinion on how well Segways fit with bikes. However, especially at a time when there was generally less bike infrastructure than today, a lot of people weren't comfortable riding Segways on roads mixed with car and truck traffic. (Just as many weren't riding bikes there.) ADDED: Hence, why the company tried to get cities to allow them on sidewalks.
If you allow a segway on the sidewalk, then suddenly lots of stuff can also use the sidewalk.
Unless you specifically want to spell out that devices called segways are allowed and anything else isn't.
Unless you specifically want to spell out that devices called segways are allowed and anything else isn't.
No argument. Which is why a lot of cities (rightfully) pushed back on Segway's lobbying. Fundamentally you don't want stuff that goes faster than a walking pace on a sidewalk. Of course, the main reason that people might want scooters, bikes, Segways, etc. is that they are faster than walking. Assuming you're capable of walking, an electric device that can't go faster than 3 or 4 mph isn't very interesting.
> A Segway wasn't a road vehicle, but it also wasn't legal on sidewalks either (in many places) leaving it in a legal grey area.
Correct. How are these scooters getting away with this though -- riding on the sidewalks that is.
Nearly half the scooters in San Francisco are being ridden on the sidewalks. I know cos I routinely get 'nearly run-over' by a hipster riding these on the sidewalk almost daily.
Correct. How are these scooters getting away with this though -- riding on the sidewalks that is.
Nearly half the scooters in San Francisco are being ridden on the sidewalks. I know cos I routinely get 'nearly run-over' by a hipster riding these on the sidewalk almost daily.
Probably sheer numbers in a city that's already overwhelmed by lots of other activities that people aren't supposed to be doing either. As others have noted, a lot of people like them but it's not clear that they are workable if they can never be ridden on the sidewalk.
I'm not condoning their use on sidewalks but it's probably inevitable that they'll be ridden there if they're going to be used to any great degree.
I'm not condoning their use on sidewalks but it's probably inevitable that they'll be ridden there if they're going to be used to any great degree.
Indeed, and Seattle and San Francisco have put the brakes [sorry] on scooter and bike sharing temporarily while they get the legalities sorted out. It’s odd to see those two cities being more conservative about new tech dads than DC, but perhaps they’ve learned something. :)
Seattle has not "put the breaks" on bike sharing. Last year they removed the station based bikes, but there are now tons of bike sharing going on from Ofo, Lime, Pronto, and other competitors [1].
[1] http://mynorthwest.com/977326/seattle-bikeshare-customer-hab...?
[1] http://mynorthwest.com/977326/seattle-bikeshare-customer-hab...?
The existing dockless bike sharing companies were approved under a provisional permit, which has sunset. The city is gathering data and deciding where they want to go from here:
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/sea...
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/sea...
The thing to understand about San Francisco is that it's ironic. The whole thing, the city itself. It doesn't make any sense if you take it at face value, you need to understand that it's "bad" and "dumb" on purpose.
I mean, it's not even subtle. A city where shitting on the sidewalk (actual human shit) is commonly accepted and even appreciated as part of the local color, but a battery-powered scooter is a public safety crisis that requires emergency regulation? Come on.
I mean, it's not even subtle. A city where shitting on the sidewalk (actual human shit) is commonly accepted and even appreciated as part of the local color, but a battery-powered scooter is a public safety crisis that requires emergency regulation? Come on.
At last in California, there are codes in place for electric vehicles, which should cover both scooters and Segways.
For what its worth, dockless rental electric scooters are a completely different game than electric scooters (which came out a few years before the Segway). The (game changing) advantage is that once you finish the ride, you don't need to worry about keeping it with you securely.
For what its worth, dockless rental electric scooters are a completely different game than electric scooters (which came out a few years before the Segway). The (game changing) advantage is that once you finish the ride, you don't need to worry about keeping it with you securely.
Jump bikes is my current favorite, the scooters seem a little wobbly and the little wheels don't like road cracks. And I like that they lock up and don't end up in bushes.
Biking straight up SF hills in jeans without sweating is like having superpowers.
One downside (for SF at least) is the robust market for stolen bike parts.
Competitively they are highly advantaged by having the scooters absorb all the hate. The scooter companies ought to make sock puppet companies that dump electric hover boards all over SF.
Biking straight up SF hills in jeans without sweating is like having superpowers.
One downside (for SF at least) is the robust market for stolen bike parts.
Competitively they are highly advantaged by having the scooters absorb all the hate. The scooter companies ought to make sock puppet companies that dump electric hover boards all over SF.
I keep being tempted by an electric scooter (of the Vespa variety) for commuting . I'm moving a little closer to work which would mean I only need 30 miles per day plus reserves.
Unfortunately, the named brand ones are ridiculously expensive (£12k+) and having ridden a couple of Chinese made motorcycles I'm disinclined to go for the cheaper ones (£3-5k). Especially when you consider that even if the fuel cost were completely free on the electric one it would take nearly 5+ years to get the money back given a named brand 125cc petrol scooter can be bought for next to nothing and will struggle to use more than £10 worth of fuel a week.
For me it would be an optimum balance of environmental consciousness and convenience though. I guess that is worth something.
https://www.bmw-motorrad.co.uk/en/models/urban_mobility/cevo...
Unfortunately, the named brand ones are ridiculously expensive (£12k+) and having ridden a couple of Chinese made motorcycles I'm disinclined to go for the cheaper ones (£3-5k). Especially when you consider that even if the fuel cost were completely free on the electric one it would take nearly 5+ years to get the money back given a named brand 125cc petrol scooter can be bought for next to nothing and will struggle to use more than £10 worth of fuel a week.
For me it would be an optimum balance of environmental consciousness and convenience though. I guess that is worth something.
https://www.bmw-motorrad.co.uk/en/models/urban_mobility/cevo...
Would also love to buy a great electric motorcycle/scooter.
It's puzzling how much more robust the ebike market is compared to the electric vespa market.
It isn't even a price issue, fancy ebikes are about the same cost. (The Genze is $3699). It doesn't seem to be regulation, you don't have to pass a bunch of tests or crash them to ship one like with a car.
Maybe the large number of bike part manufacturers and builders give it more sophisticated supply chain? I really don't know.
It's puzzling how much more robust the ebike market is compared to the electric vespa market.
It isn't even a price issue, fancy ebikes are about the same cost. (The Genze is $3699). It doesn't seem to be regulation, you don't have to pass a bunch of tests or crash them to ship one like with a car.
Maybe the large number of bike part manufacturers and builders give it more sophisticated supply chain? I really don't know.
An e-bike with pedal assist requires you to pedal so you get at least some exercise out from it. E-mopeds are also much heaver than e-bikes and may not be allowed (depending on jurisdiction) on all bike paths. They are also locked at their 25 km/h top speed, while e-bikes can go faster if you pedal.
> 25 km/h top speed
In California, mopeds can go 30 MPH (48.3km/h). I think it's 25 or 30 in most US states. The GenZe has 4 horsepower which is the CA limit (used to be 2) but some states only specify displacement as 49cc or less.
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection....
Mopeds are also allowed in bike lanes in CA, though police & cyclists don't seem to know this.
Moped laws around the US: https://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/Moped_Laws:_United_States
edit: did some more research. US doesn't have the equivalent of a German Mofa (25km/h) only Mokick (45km/h) https://smartexpat.com/germany/how-to-guides/transport/drivi...
Though the stand-up scooters in CA do happen to have a 15 MPH limit.
In California, mopeds can go 30 MPH (48.3km/h). I think it's 25 or 30 in most US states. The GenZe has 4 horsepower which is the CA limit (used to be 2) but some states only specify displacement as 49cc or less.
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection....
Mopeds are also allowed in bike lanes in CA, though police & cyclists don't seem to know this.
Moped laws around the US: https://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/Moped_Laws:_United_States
edit: did some more research. US doesn't have the equivalent of a German Mofa (25km/h) only Mokick (45km/h) https://smartexpat.com/germany/how-to-guides/transport/drivi...
Though the stand-up scooters in CA do happen to have a 15 MPH limit.
I'm hoping I'm just a little bit ahead of the curve. Doing a bit of reading it seams Honda and Yamaha have electric motorcycles being released in some form or another this year. Hopefully they find a market for them and the competition will start to push prices down.
This is not what the author is talking about. In this case the scooter is a small item that weighs 10 lbs, not a mini-motor cycle.
Yes, that is why I clarified of the Vespa variety.
I'm aware they aren't the same thing, but it's two wheels and an electric motor. They aren't that different.
I'm aware they aren't the same thing, but it's two wheels and an electric motor. They aren't that different.
surely the 2 orders of magnitude cost difference suggests they are more different than alike?
A BIC pen can be 5 orders of magnitude less expensive than a nice Caran D'Ache.
Anyway, I just though someone might be interested in discussing the merits of electric scooters rather than arguing about how different the two types of scooter are.
Anyway, I just though someone might be interested in discussing the merits of electric scooters rather than arguing about how different the two types of scooter are.
The Scoot service in SF uses GenZe scooters and they're fantastic to ride. Granted, I don't own one because I just use Scoot. They're about $4.5k on the website.
Yes, I was about to cite GenZe too https://www.genze.com/e-scooters/ . That BMW scooter looks good, but:
> £12,350*
Uh, no.
> £12,350*
Uh, no.
Nice. The main part of my journey is on a 40mph road though so it would need a little more get up and go. I also ride a 650cc motorcycle so the temptation to get a faster one is hard to resist!
You should look into an e-bike conversion. I do 14 miles a day, and just added a kit to my bike for about ~$500. For an extra 100-200 you can probably get a kit that covers 30 miles fairly easy. And the power/battery will probably be similar to what you get on those lower end scooters. I know UK has speed limits on e-bikes, so that is a consideration, but if you are in a unrban-ish area like me, your commute is probably more limited by traffic and stop lights than it is by top speed.
Yeah, that is a possibility. I'd have to avoid the most direct route though as that is fairly fast moving (Chertsey to Hammersmith in / around London). From memory I think the limit is only a few hundred watts. There is an ebike shop near me, I might pop in and see if they do test rides.
Scooters are interesting on roads.
They are dangerous and reckless on sidewalks. Sidewalks are used by all sorts of people: from healthy adults to a wide spectrum of mobility, sensorily and developmentally impaired people.
Case in point: handicapped folks, elderly, and children.
A 75 year old woman out walking her dog is unlikely to have the situational awareness (visual, audio, and cognitive degeneration) nor the quickness of reflexes to respond to scooters on sidewalks.
A collision between a 170lb male on a scooter going 10mph and a 130lb elderly person is going to lead to extensive injury, potentially life threatening, injury to the adult.
A pelvic fracture is not an uncommon injury from falls in elderly and is associated with a notable increase in probability of death.
Scooters on sidewalks are dangerous and should be immediately banned.
They are dangerous and reckless on sidewalks. Sidewalks are used by all sorts of people: from healthy adults to a wide spectrum of mobility, sensorily and developmentally impaired people.
Case in point: handicapped folks, elderly, and children.
A 75 year old woman out walking her dog is unlikely to have the situational awareness (visual, audio, and cognitive degeneration) nor the quickness of reflexes to respond to scooters on sidewalks.
A collision between a 170lb male on a scooter going 10mph and a 130lb elderly person is going to lead to extensive injury, potentially life threatening, injury to the adult.
A pelvic fracture is not an uncommon injury from falls in elderly and is associated with a notable increase in probability of death.
Scooters on sidewalks are dangerous and should be immediately banned.
I had a case like this tonight at SubZero in San Jose. A teenager was zipping on a Bird down the wide but crowded sidewalk on San Fernando, zigged right to dodge a cluster of oedesrrians... right at me.
The kicker: he had two more Birds stacked sideways on it, sticking out a couple of feet on both sides.
Had I not seen him first and jumped out of tbe way, I would have had broken fibulas, ankles, or both.
And then what? The dude would just flee the scene. Bird wouldn't take any responsibility, either. I'd be screwed.
The kicker: he had two more Birds stacked sideways on it, sticking out a couple of feet on both sides.
Had I not seen him first and jumped out of tbe way, I would have had broken fibulas, ankles, or both.
And then what? The dude would just flee the scene. Bird wouldn't take any responsibility, either. I'd be screwed.
Wouldn't a 170 lb runner pose the same risk to an elderly person?
In all cases it is the responsibility of everybody using the footpath to ensure they don't put others at risk.
Runners should feel free to use the footpath as part of their exercise - but they shouldn't run blindly around corners. I feel the same way about scooters - ride on the footpath all you like, but slow right down around other pedestrians or blind spots so that people both feel safe and are safe.
In all cases it is the responsibility of everybody using the footpath to ensure they don't put others at risk.
Runners should feel free to use the footpath as part of their exercise - but they shouldn't run blindly around corners. I feel the same way about scooters - ride on the footpath all you like, but slow right down around other pedestrians or blind spots so that people both feel safe and are safe.
These scooters are getting stolen left and right in San Francisco.
I read the HN article last week about charging these (where they pay you to collect scooters and you charge them over night), so I recently signed up to become a charger for Bird scooters. When I first opened up the app to search for ones to charge it showed dozens of these things[1] that had gone missing in the Tenderloin. I went searching for some yesterday and after being unable to locate about 5 in a row, I saw two homeless guys dissecting one. The electronics were hanging out and they had screw drivers in hand.
Of course I didn't confront them, and I went home empty handed.
[1] Yesterday I counted ~33 that had gone missing in the Tenderloin within the past two weeks. To put this in perspective, there are only about 75 - 100 of them in the entirety of SF right now if you open up the Bird app.
I read the HN article last week about charging these (where they pay you to collect scooters and you charge them over night), so I recently signed up to become a charger for Bird scooters. When I first opened up the app to search for ones to charge it showed dozens of these things[1] that had gone missing in the Tenderloin. I went searching for some yesterday and after being unable to locate about 5 in a row, I saw two homeless guys dissecting one. The electronics were hanging out and they had screw drivers in hand.
Of course I didn't confront them, and I went home empty handed.
[1] Yesterday I counted ~33 that had gone missing in the Tenderloin within the past two weeks. To put this in perspective, there are only about 75 - 100 of them in the entirety of SF right now if you open up the Bird app.
I don't get the hate. I get to work in 10 minutes flat compared to walking more than half an hour. It's a convenient way of commuting, especially if the trains and buses are unreliable.
I guess the people who hate on these scooters are the ones who can't find one that has enough battery or isn't "offline" for some reason.
I guess the people who hate on these scooters are the ones who can't find one that has enough battery or isn't "offline" for some reason.
Some of the hate comes from cyclists who now have to contend with scooters weaving around the bike lane, and from pedestrians that have to contend with 15 mph scooters on the sidewalk.
The author outlined the problem with sharing the roads with bikes:
Scooters accelerate out of a stop faster than bicycles, but the top speed of most scooters is below that of all but the slowest bikes. So if you come out of a stop next to a cyclist, you immediately lurch forward and pass them, only to watch them pass you five seconds later. And it is annoying to pass someone in the bike lane.
The author outlined the problem with sharing the roads with bikes:
Scooters accelerate out of a stop faster than bicycles, but the top speed of most scooters is below that of all but the slowest bikes. So if you come out of a stop next to a cyclist, you immediately lurch forward and pass them, only to watch them pass you five seconds later. And it is annoying to pass someone in the bike lane.
14-15mph is a perfectly fine speed. Any place that has a substantial % of bike commuters will have plenty of cyclists at or below that speed.
Places where all cyclists are fast are usually just places where biking is so uncomfortable/unsafe that only highly skilled and confident riders do it. Meanwhile you look at Amsterdam and these scooters would be faster than average there in the bike paths.
Places where all cyclists are fast are usually just places where biking is so uncomfortable/unsafe that only highly skilled and confident riders do it. Meanwhile you look at Amsterdam and these scooters would be faster than average there in the bike paths.
Most of the hate seems to come from people discarding them in inconvenient places like the middle of the sidewalk and in the last open parking spot on the street. They're neon colored litter when not in the "nests" or being actively ridden.
>Riding a scooter doesn’t feel like cruising on a Segway to me anymore, but it remains socially conspicuous.
In the long run, it seems that ownership is moving towards the cloud model. The same arguments for virtual machines in a server can be used for vehicles and, likely, many other types of physical items. There is no doubt that a pool of 100 scooters serving 1000 people is better for the environment than 1000 under-utilized scooters.
In the long run, it seems that ownership is moving towards the cloud model. The same arguments for virtual machines in a server can be used for vehicles and, likely, many other types of physical items. There is no doubt that a pool of 100 scooters serving 1000 people is better for the environment than 1000 under-utilized scooters.
That’s probably what’s going to happen with scooters and bikes. I’m not convinced with cats yet though. I got some stuff that I want to be permanently in the car.
EDIT: I meant cars ;-) but it’s so funny, I just leave it as is
EDIT: I meant cars ;-) but it’s so funny, I just leave it as is
Cars are a completely different thing. No one really thinks about it like this, but one of the most appealing things about a car is that it's an extension of your personal space. It's almost an additional room in your house or apartment that you can take with you.
When I get out of work and get into my car, it's like I'm sort of almost home already. Driving sucks in traffic, but I'm in my own, fairly comfortable space I've customized to my liking that I'm in complete control of. When I take any kind of transit, I'm not done with my day until I'm literally all the way back to my own apartment. Additionally, I actually quite like driving when traffic isn't bad.
I'd much rather sit in traffic in my own car than on any kind of public transit. That statement holds until the transit option cuts my commute time by better than 2 to 1. The reality is (at least here in Los Angeles) that taking public transit usually doubles the travel time vs a car. I don't see this changing.
When I get out of work and get into my car, it's like I'm sort of almost home already. Driving sucks in traffic, but I'm in my own, fairly comfortable space I've customized to my liking that I'm in complete control of. When I take any kind of transit, I'm not done with my day until I'm literally all the way back to my own apartment. Additionally, I actually quite like driving when traffic isn't bad.
I'd much rather sit in traffic in my own car than on any kind of public transit. That statement holds until the transit option cuts my commute time by better than 2 to 1. The reality is (at least here in Los Angeles) that taking public transit usually doubles the travel time vs a car. I don't see this changing.
Id much rather sit in traffic in my own car than on any kind of public transit.
> I’m not convinced with cats yet though
I agree - while there have been cat rentals and cat coffee shops, they haven't really taken off like this.
;-)
I agree - while there have been cat rentals and cat coffee shops, they haven't really taken off like this.
;-)
Scooter share services seriously are awesome, they bring mobility to the underserved in a way that buses extremely struggle to. They're awesomely cheap, and Bird can add demand to any area simply by trucking in a new load of scooters.
I don't know how long it'll last, but normal people can even make money charging them. It's got me considering spending $200 on my own scooter, though I think I'll just use the service until I'm ready to bite that bullet.
I don't know how long it'll last, but normal people can even make money charging them. It's got me considering spending $200 on my own scooter, though I think I'll just use the service until I'm ready to bite that bullet.
This was posted on HN earlier this month. Apparently the Bird charging isn't without its downsides http://fortune.com/2018/05/20/bird-hunting-scooter-charging/
I would guess if these things stick around the collectors would be better served to have the chargers inside a van so they could continually collect and drop off.
I wonder the same thing. How the hell do the economics of these things work, if users pay almost nothing and birders get so much money daily?
They can adjust pricing. What I'd be more worried about is theft. What happens once someone figures out how to disable the locking and posts the howto online?
There is no locking I don't think it just makes a racket when you take it when its not enabled. It is a light scooter after all.
Apparently there is value in stealing them to harvest the batteries.
Apparently there is value in stealing them to harvest the batteries.
VC funding.
This person has obviously never ridden an e-bike. E-scooters are decidedly dorky. They can't corner well at high speeds. They carry almost no angular momentum to keep you moving forward. The only cool thing about a scooter is that you can easily hoist that 3 lb frame up and carry it with you without a second thought... add an 8 pound motor + battery to that and you've lost all your convenience when you have to climb several flights of stairs... An E-bike on the otherhand can benefit from its girth... it makes it harder to steal if you just add a cafe lock. That weight also makes it perfect for cruising. I can ride 10 miles on convoluted paths without touching my handlebars because of how predictable the ride is. I can ride up sharp grade hills at 20+ MPH without breaking a sweat in 90+ degree weather. And while I'm effortlessly cruising to my destination with minimal effort, I'M STILL PEDALING. It doesn't matter if I'm putting minimal effort in while I'm getting where I'm going, it's still exercise (not to mention way better from the perspective of arterial hardening from unnecessarily standing like a jack ass on a dork mobile). If you want to be totally lazy, get a Boosted board. If you want to revolutionize your shit, go to your local e-bike dealer and get them to hook you up with something actually meaningful.
Well the market has responded and it seems your pain points just don't matter to the regular person. You're seriously underestimating the number 1 and number 2 thing people care about.. convenience.
Who wants to own something and have another thing you have to worry about and take everywhere with you? When you can just join an app, have no up front cost and dump it on the street for the next person? That factor of convenience beats the shit out of ownership.
Regarding handling - do you think someone with no experience riding a bike can 'effortlessly ride 10 miles on convoluted paths without touching the handlebars' or did it take you years of riding experience to get that good? So if you spent that same amount of time riding an e-scooter do you think you'd have handling down to an art as well? I think you would, and how it handles around corners wouldn't even be a consideration.
However theres a halo effect at play here which is good news: more people who are using these services who have never used an e-bike or boosted board before after seeing the benefits are now more likely to owning them. Or maybe even just buying their own Xiamoi E-scooter.
Who wants to own something and have another thing you have to worry about and take everywhere with you? When you can just join an app, have no up front cost and dump it on the street for the next person? That factor of convenience beats the shit out of ownership.
Regarding handling - do you think someone with no experience riding a bike can 'effortlessly ride 10 miles on convoluted paths without touching the handlebars' or did it take you years of riding experience to get that good? So if you spent that same amount of time riding an e-scooter do you think you'd have handling down to an art as well? I think you would, and how it handles around corners wouldn't even be a consideration.
However theres a halo effect at play here which is good news: more people who are using these services who have never used an e-bike or boosted board before after seeing the benefits are now more likely to owning them. Or maybe even just buying their own Xiamoi E-scooter.
I ride both ebikes and scooters, and while the ebikes are a better way to get somewhere fast (and I think, overall, safer) the scooters are generally a much more pleasant ride - you're standing up, you just kind of surf along, and you don't have a 30lb bike to deal with... they're magic-carpet-like.
The exercise benefits of both are... questionable. Even just cycling as a commuter on a regular bike isn't very intense exercise, and on an ebike it just seems like you're pretending to pedal. I can't imagine it has much health benefit aside from being better than sitting in a car.
The exercise benefits of both are... questionable. Even just cycling as a commuter on a regular bike isn't very intense exercise, and on an ebike it just seems like you're pretending to pedal. I can't imagine it has much health benefit aside from being better than sitting in a car.
I wish more cities in the US would just copy the Netherlands. It’s like night and day seeing the infrastructure and operation of bikes/e-bikes/scooters between the US and Netherlands. It’s safe, efficient, and actually makes sense.
US roads were made for cars. That’s just the honest truth. Cities need to do more than just toss a bike lane on the side of the road and say they are “bike friendly”. That’s not a solution, that’s some half-assed attempt by officials to look like they give a damn.
US roads were made for cars. That’s just the honest truth. Cities need to do more than just toss a bike lane on the side of the road and say they are “bike friendly”. That’s not a solution, that’s some half-assed attempt by officials to look like they give a damn.
Yup, painted bike lanes are nearly worthless. Nobody would accept having "painted walk lanes" instead of sidewalks everywhere.
Painted bike lanes are not uniformly bad. They can be valuable, provided they're wide enough and actually connect up with each other enough that you don't just end up with "can't get there from here" syndrome. Except for the idiots who think they're double-parking lanes, they do a pretty good job of marking a "watch out, cars" zone.
Sharrows, on the other hand, are largely slaps in the face. They're put on slow residential roads where I was perfectly fine riding anyways. Or they're half-assed "look we support bikes" icons slapped right in the door zone onto a stretch of potholes that cars run at 45mph. (My personal favorite is when a perfectly nice marked lane dumps you into sharrows right before a confusing intersection.)
Sharrows, on the other hand, are largely slaps in the face. They're put on slow residential roads where I was perfectly fine riding anyways. Or they're half-assed "look we support bikes" icons slapped right in the door zone onto a stretch of potholes that cars run at 45mph. (My personal favorite is when a perfectly nice marked lane dumps you into sharrows right before a confusing intersection.)
Painted bike lanes are useful for only a tiny slice of the population: cyclists who are both confident and okay with a fair amount of risk/lack of safety. Most people aren't that; most people are open to the idea of cycling, but only if it feels relatively safe and comfortable, and you can't get that with no physical barrier between you and cars. Nobody puts their eight year old in painted bike lanes on arterials.
Agreed that sharrows are essentially useless though. It's not that the idea of mixing traffic has to be bad, but it only works if you have serious traffic calming measures that pretty much force drivers to slow down and drive more safely. Most of the time when sharrows go down, there's absolutely nothing functional changed about a car-dominant street.
Agreed that sharrows are essentially useless though. It's not that the idea of mixing traffic has to be bad, but it only works if you have serious traffic calming measures that pretty much force drivers to slow down and drive more safely. Most of the time when sharrows go down, there's absolutely nothing functional changed about a car-dominant street.
> only a tiny slice of the population
Hmm, very fair point. I admit that, biking support overall being what it is, I'm mostly stuck on making things better for those who already bike (e.g., people like me, obviously). Expanding ridership to other groups seems like another level entirely most of the time, although it would be great! I should try to keep that aspect in mind more.
Hmm, very fair point. I admit that, biking support overall being what it is, I'm mostly stuck on making things better for those who already bike (e.g., people like me, obviously). Expanding ridership to other groups seems like another level entirely most of the time, although it would be great! I should try to keep that aspect in mind more.
somebody should put wireless chargers into the cement and throw some super capacitors onto these scooters for temporary boosts (like going up hill or out of a corner, long stretches, etc)... like the f-zero charging/booster things.
At about $3 / ride and commuting both ways, aren't you better off buying your own scooter at about 2 or 3 months? These things aren't so big that you have to keep them outside or in a garage, like a bike. You can take them in and fold it up and charge it under your desk.
There's a certain value to not managing the thing yourself. My wife bikes to get around Munich, and has to deal with one of her bikes breaking on some way -- flat/leaky tire, spokes broke, etc. -- a handful of times per year.
I recently moved to Paris and I was surprised to see that these scooters are super trendy now. The most common riders seem to be middle-aged and older posh women who zoom to and from the metro with their noses in the air.
The dorks are mostly seen on electric unicycles.
The dorks are mostly seen on electric unicycles.
i've tried both bird scooters and jump bikes in san francisco and really enjoyed them both, to my surprise. the scooters are a little easier to maneuver in traffic, while the bikes are faster and have longer range.
my bike was stolen a couple years ago, shifting me to lyft/uber as a result, but lately i've become less enthusiastic about those services.
anyone have suggestions on electric scooter or electric bike models to buy? ideally something light (and possibly foldable) for shorter trips (within 3-5 miles) and last mile connections off public transportation.
my bike was stolen a couple years ago, shifting me to lyft/uber as a result, but lately i've become less enthusiastic about those services.
anyone have suggestions on electric scooter or electric bike models to buy? ideally something light (and possibly foldable) for shorter trips (within 3-5 miles) and last mile connections off public transportation.
You asked for scooter or bike recommendations, but I love the Boosted Board electric skateboards for their portability and fun factor.
However, they're almost certainly more dangerous, and a higher learning curve (though I hadn't skateboarded much before getting one). Just watch out for Muni tracks, gravel, wet roads (especially on metal), and potholes.
However, they're almost certainly more dangerous, and a higher learning curve (though I hadn't skateboarded much before getting one). Just watch out for Muni tracks, gravel, wet roads (especially on metal), and potholes.
those are neat but are not really for me. i can kinda sorta get away with being on a scooter (not really), but i'd look downright silly on a skateboard. =)
Check out cycleboard. It's a 3 wheeled scooter with balance based steering.
I'm still waiting for mine, but I used a kickboard (3-wheeled non electric scooter) for commuting to school years ago and it's so much more stable than 2 wheeled scooters and much more fun to drive.
I'm still waiting for mine, but I used a kickboard (3-wheeled non electric scooter) for commuting to school years ago and it's so much more stable than 2 wheeled scooters and much more fun to drive.
Can the acceleration curve be adjusted to be more in line with bicycles? Or is it feasible to rapidly toggle the throttle to slow acceleration without making the ride too jerky?
I've only ridden Lime scooters so far---I really want to try a Bird, I hear they're faster---but in my experience the acceleration seemed pretty smooth. It was the braking that was extremely jerky and sudden for me.
The acceleration is very slow, annoyingly so IMHO, but you can augment it by pushing with your foot.
This is intentional, and conserves a considerable amount of battery power. Bird specifically instructs riders to kick push twice when starting from a stop. Accelerating eats up significantly more energy than maintaining speed.
what brand have you ridden? i've only ridden bird and the throttle is very precise with a good "throttle map". lots of control in the starting off / low part of the range.
I don’t live anywhere near these, sadly. Near the end of the article, the author mentioned passing cyclists then being passed again due to the differing accelerations and top speeds. Sounds like it isn’t an issue to slow acceleration to avoid being a nuisance in the bike lane with Bird, at least?
I've ridden Bird scooters (which are just a modified version of this [1]) quite a few times in San Francisco, and while they can usually accelerate a little faster from a stop than most cyclists do, I've found it easy to just match acceleration with the cyclist in front of me. On flat ground you'll probably end up cruising at a similar speed to most cyclists, though there are certainly outliers in both directions.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Electric-long-range-Fold-n-Carry-Ultr...
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Electric-long-range-Fold-n-Carry-Ultr...
So how are these Electric Scooters better than E-Bikes?
E-Bike has huge range and make riding the bike at speeds up to 30km/h a breeze.
E-Bike has huge range and make riding the bike at speeds up to 30km/h a breeze.
I don't know about "better" across all metrics. Just different.
Mounting the scooter is easier, they are cheaper (thus theoretically better suited to this sort of grab one and drop it wherever model), they are lighter (which is maybe more important for scenarios where you own it rather than grab-n-go), they are easier to maneuver at very low speeds, and they don't require that you know how to ride a bike.
E-bikes win on another set of axes: they are more comfortable for longer rides, they are faster, they have greater range, they are more maneuverable at higher speeds.
Mounting the scooter is easier, they are cheaper (thus theoretically better suited to this sort of grab one and drop it wherever model), they are lighter (which is maybe more important for scenarios where you own it rather than grab-n-go), they are easier to maneuver at very low speeds, and they don't require that you know how to ride a bike.
E-bikes win on another set of axes: they are more comfortable for longer rides, they are faster, they have greater range, they are more maneuverable at higher speeds.
I took 3 scooters rides on a 3 miles ride to work and it roughly cost me $4 and took ~22 minutes
I've taken the Jump bike several times and it usually takes just under 15 min to go the same route for only $2
Faster and cheaper wins! :)
I've taken the Jump bike several times and it usually takes just under 15 min to go the same route for only $2
Faster and cheaper wins! :)
At some distance there's a crossover, where the speed and comfort of a bike overwhelm most of the other factors. I'm surprised by the price point for the Jump bike; that makes my price concern less of an issue.
As it is, as an NYC resident, I have neither Jump bikes nor shareable electric scooters, so my personal experience is limited. I had no idea that Jump bikes were so cheap -- the cheapest you can get here is the CitiBike, which is non-electric and has a half-hour ride for $3 (cheaper as you get memberships and rides in bulk, but that complex pricing is one of the things that makes it annoying).
Do you know how much of the Jump price is them burning VC money and passing the savings on to you? It seems like the depreciation on the bike is in excess of that amount.
As it is, as an NYC resident, I have neither Jump bikes nor shareable electric scooters, so my personal experience is limited. I had no idea that Jump bikes were so cheap -- the cheapest you can get here is the CitiBike, which is non-electric and has a half-hour ride for $3 (cheaper as you get memberships and rides in bulk, but that complex pricing is one of the things that makes it annoying).
Do you know how much of the Jump price is them burning VC money and passing the savings on to you? It seems like the depreciation on the bike is in excess of that amount.
It's $2 for the first 30 minutes and then charged at a per minute rate (varies per city) after that. $0.07 per min in SF.
The Ford GoBike which I think it the same program as the CitiBike is rolling out electric assist bikes now too which I believe is $3 for a 30 min ride for the electric. $2 for normal
The Ford GoBike which I think it the same program as the CitiBike is rolling out electric assist bikes now too which I believe is $3 for a 30 min ride for the electric. $2 for normal
<rant>
The 2000s New York decision to put bike lanes all over the place made the city less livable. For example, Hudson St went from three or four lanes of one-way traffic moving predictably, to two lanes of one-way traffic going a predictable speed and a parallel roadway of bicycles moving at unpredictable speeds and behaving in ways to preserve their momentum.
In an environment where the healthy people you see on bikes could have walked where they were going, or taken the subway (pre-Cuomo MTA), they weren't doing anything virtuous compared to all of the other car-less New Yorkers they were shouting at whenever they breezed through an intersection.
Biking in New York was recreation when the subways worked, and fun that made sense on places like the long bike paths without pedestrian cross traffic. Intuitively, these electric scooters would not be the same nuisance to people trying to walk somewhere, or just going out for a stroll. They start from a stop more quickly so people don't try to unsafely preserve their momentum, and their lower cruising speed would tend to allow them to avoid obstacles more easily.
<end rant>
I know I sound like the people in this "Hark! A Vagrant"[1], but bike lanes for the recreation of a small group of people really did make walking around quiet neighborhoods in New York less peaceful and enjoyable. These scooters don't at all sound like they would have the same impact.
[1] http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=331
The 2000s New York decision to put bike lanes all over the place made the city less livable. For example, Hudson St went from three or four lanes of one-way traffic moving predictably, to two lanes of one-way traffic going a predictable speed and a parallel roadway of bicycles moving at unpredictable speeds and behaving in ways to preserve their momentum.
In an environment where the healthy people you see on bikes could have walked where they were going, or taken the subway (pre-Cuomo MTA), they weren't doing anything virtuous compared to all of the other car-less New Yorkers they were shouting at whenever they breezed through an intersection.
Biking in New York was recreation when the subways worked, and fun that made sense on places like the long bike paths without pedestrian cross traffic. Intuitively, these electric scooters would not be the same nuisance to people trying to walk somewhere, or just going out for a stroll. They start from a stop more quickly so people don't try to unsafely preserve their momentum, and their lower cruising speed would tend to allow them to avoid obstacles more easily.
<end rant>
I know I sound like the people in this "Hark! A Vagrant"[1], but bike lanes for the recreation of a small group of people really did make walking around quiet neighborhoods in New York less peaceful and enjoyable. These scooters don't at all sound like they would have the same impact.
[1] http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=331
[deleted]
More people feel comfortable riding scooters than bikes. There’s a stigma around “I can’t ride a bike”. There’s also less regulation on dumping scooters than on bikes. ;)
I would like to know more. I've literally never heard of this stigma.
I don't think stigma was the intended meaning. I assume the poster meant something like doesn't feel confident enough riding bikes to do so in traffic--especially where bike lanes aren't well delineated and separated. Which certainly rings true for me. I can kinda/sorts ride a bike but I only learned as an adult and would never do so on a road.
Cheaper. An electric scooter is perhaps $100; an e-bike is often 4+. Oddly though, Jump is actually cheaper than Lime once you ride for over 7 minutes.. perhaps that would change.
Another slight advantage is lower weight (obstacles), though in practice this is unlikely to be a major issue.
Otherwise I agree that an e-bike is superior. I prefer the GoBike e-bikes to Lime/Bird.
Another slight advantage is lower weight (obstacles), though in practice this is unlikely to be a major issue.
Otherwise I agree that an e-bike is superior. I prefer the GoBike e-bikes to Lime/Bird.
Show me a decent ebike you can get for $400!
Most batteries alone are $150-400.
Buying a cheap generic spec ebike is around $900-$1400
Most batteries alone are $150-400.
Buying a cheap generic spec ebike is around $900-$1400
These electric scooters being used are thousands of dollars.
Nope, they are around $300-500
https://qz.com/1257198/xiaomi-makes-the-bird-and-spin-scoote...
https://qz.com/1257198/xiaomi-makes-the-bird-and-spin-scoote...
I can fold up a scooter and carry it on the subway or tuck it under my desk. While both of those are kinda possible with e-bikes, if more than a handful of people tried it we’d be out of space rather quickly.
Most e-bikes you'll still have to pedal, which in a climate like DC means you will be dripping with sweat in seconds. On a scooter you can just stand and enjoy the breeze.
On Jump bikes at least, the pedal is practically a gas pedal. I never came close to putting any effort even on 10+% hills in SF.
Working in downtown DC, I've been blown away with the popularity of the electric scooters. The bikeshare bikes mostly go unused (unless they end up in the bottom of the Potomac), but I'm seeing multiple middle-aged business people scootering along every day. Never would have guessed it in such a serious town.
Apropos of nothing much... This seems to have the first use of the phrase "oligarchic subsidization". At least the only one that's currently coming up from Google for me.
Sooner or later there had to be a catchy term for the new(ish) business model of artificially low, VC-subsidized prices intended to drive all the competition out of the market and create a monopoly where you can then jack up the rent. "oligarchic subsidization" is as good as any.
> then jack up the rent
But can they really do that? Another VC-subsidized startup can then come in and apply the same strategy.
But can they really do that? Another VC-subsidized startup can then come in and apply the same strategy.
I don't think they can, which is why I think companies like Uber are massively overvalued and these stupid food delivery startups are all doomed. But hey, maybe my lack of vision is why I'm a working schmoe and VCs are millionaires.
vcs are millionaires because they invest other people's money and only need a little bit of success. why aren't we all trying to be vcs? lots of failures are just fine.
Whether they can or can not defines if the company is successful or not.
Some can.
Some can.
I don't see why I would chose this over a bicycle. A bike will move as far as I need. This (more or less) grinds to a halt when battery is depleted.
Bicycle: UX win.
Bicycle: UX win.
Scooters require less skill to ride/are easier to maneuver, they're smaller and so can be used on a sidewalk less awkwardly and are easier to park inconspicuously. Also, if you have to suddenly "abandon ship" you're already more or less standing upright, which is probably safer.
These are really only intended for trips of a few miles where battery life isn't really a concern. If you want a longer trip then yes a bike is probably a better idea.
These are really only intended for trips of a few miles where battery life isn't really a concern. If you want a longer trip then yes a bike is probably a better idea.
I daily ride my bicycle 8km's to get to work, and back. Its pretty good exercise, gets me really awake by the time I get to the desk.
However, I don't think everyone can do this. I suggest to my friends, equally endowed with a beerly-gait as I, to get into it to .. but nope. City slickers got no time to ride no bicycle, no 2 or 4 or 10 km's.
Pity really, because it absolutely improves life quality, imho.
However, I don't think everyone can do this. I suggest to my friends, equally endowed with a beerly-gait as I, to get into it to .. but nope. City slickers got no time to ride no bicycle, no 2 or 4 or 10 km's.
Pity really, because it absolutely improves life quality, imho.
I seriously don't understand how one scooter company could differentiate itself from others significantly from business perspective.
They went into it thinking there was a network effect. (There isn't.)
Worse for the scooter startups is that they can go far enough to cause loss, but can't go so far as to link up two essentially different geographic zones. Thus no demand side market balancing like Uber and Lyft. They're limited to small cities in the sunshine.
The people driving around and getting paid big bucks to recharge them are using...... cars.
Which is why the only play for the scooter companies is to be acquired by Uber or Lyft. Which is unfortunate because there is no original technology in these scooters. Xaiomi will sell the m365 to whoever wants to buy one. When two Chinese companies are selling the scooters, their price will halve or more, and anyone who finds himself using a scooter daily will buy one...... for $200.
I would think that Dara is on a Boeing Business Jet with Lei Jun right now toasting their exclusive deal on the next million commodity scooters at a bargain basement price.
Worse for the scooter startups is that they can go far enough to cause loss, but can't go so far as to link up two essentially different geographic zones. Thus no demand side market balancing like Uber and Lyft. They're limited to small cities in the sunshine.
The people driving around and getting paid big bucks to recharge them are using...... cars.
Which is why the only play for the scooter companies is to be acquired by Uber or Lyft. Which is unfortunate because there is no original technology in these scooters. Xaiomi will sell the m365 to whoever wants to buy one. When two Chinese companies are selling the scooters, their price will halve or more, and anyone who finds himself using a scooter daily will buy one...... for $200.
I would think that Dara is on a Boeing Business Jet with Lei Jun right now toasting their exclusive deal on the next million commodity scooters at a bargain basement price.
Why can't the scooter companies design locking docks that also allow the scooters to be charged while locked in them? The locking docks is obviously already solved; modifying the scoots to lock the batteries in and charge them while locked seems pretty simple (I mean, we've had dock and charge tech for all sorts of things for many decades...).
Seems like a relatively simple problem to solve (sure, still a few months of dev time with several months of manufacturing lag, but you'll do it if it's central to your business).
Seems like a relatively simple problem to solve (sure, still a few months of dev time with several months of manufacturing lag, but you'll do it if it's central to your business).
The problem with docks is not technical, but that people don't want to be forced to leave them at a particular place.
Also, you would need to pay some sort of rent on those docks, connect them to electricity and all that. You could use that money instead to just buy more scooters.
Also, you would need to pay some sort of rent on those docks, connect them to electricity and all that. You could use that money instead to just buy more scooters.
I agree. Bike sharing companies are ten-a-penny.
I think they're imagining that there will be geographic network effects - "my city is full of CompanyX scooters, so I'll use their app". I don't know though, seems a bit dubious.
Also I seriously doubt they are anywhere near to making even a vague profit. They're charging maybe 3x as much per ride compared to bikes, but the scooters must be easily 10x more expensive and they have to pay people to charge them.
I think they're imagining that there will be geographic network effects - "my city is full of CompanyX scooters, so I'll use their app". I don't know though, seems a bit dubious.
Also I seriously doubt they are anywhere near to making even a vague profit. They're charging maybe 3x as much per ride compared to bikes, but the scooters must be easily 10x more expensive and they have to pay people to charge them.
Bird's chargers are freelancers that get $5 per scooter charged. Given the price of renting them it seems like they have thin margins even before you account for the capital costs of buying and replacing the things, plus theft and destruction.
I suspect that $5 might start shrinking if they stick around. It seems just a touch generous currently. I guess it depends how many bored kids with bikes are available and willing to do the work.
I suspect that $5 might start shrinking if they stick around. It seems just a touch generous currently. I guess it depends how many bored kids with bikes are available and willing to do the work.
one difference i've already noticed between limebike scooters and bird is in the scooters themselves.
limebike scooters' bells are on a flimsy spring so most of the time theyre broken. the bell is pretty useful for alerting walkers ahead of you of your presence without having to yell.
the bird scooters are also able to 'chirp' to help locate them - i've heard limebikes do the same but i have not been able to find that feature in their app.
overall i dont think this is an issue of a winner take all market - uber and lyft seem to live in harmony and i take whichever is cheaper. for scooters, i'd just take whichever one is closer, there is no brand loyalty or much differentiation but there's room for multiple players atm.
limebike scooters' bells are on a flimsy spring so most of the time theyre broken. the bell is pretty useful for alerting walkers ahead of you of your presence without having to yell.
the bird scooters are also able to 'chirp' to help locate them - i've heard limebikes do the same but i have not been able to find that feature in their app.
overall i dont think this is an issue of a winner take all market - uber and lyft seem to live in harmony and i take whichever is cheaper. for scooters, i'd just take whichever one is closer, there is no brand loyalty or much differentiation but there's room for multiple players atm.
> the bell is pretty useful for alerting walkers ahead of you of your presence without having to yell.
Just to clarify, you're not supposed to ride these on sidewalks in most (all?) places (though mixed-use paths are probably ok)
Just to clarify, you're not supposed to ride these on sidewalks in most (all?) places (though mixed-use paths are probably ok)
Uber and Lyft are different than scooter services because they leverage the network affects by the availability of drivers and wait times. Scooters could race to cover more districts and provide high availability but this can easily be commoditized. Also, cities have limits on the number of total deployed scooters within a city.
If the scooter companies can get bought by Uber or Lyft, these ride sharing services could also take on the responsibility of distributing these scooters across the city and make them highly available. That would compliment their ride sharing service tho.
If the scooter companies can get bought by Uber or Lyft, these ride sharing services could also take on the responsibility of distributing these scooters across the city and make them highly available. That would compliment their ride sharing service tho.
Regulation would make it pretty good, even a 2-6 company oligopoly would could raise prices enough for very good margins.
3 miles in 10 minutes is 29 km/h which is quite fast. Not a speed I would ride my bike in traffic without a helmet.
Dutch guy here. 29km/h on a bike without a helmet is absolutely safe over here, and everyone is doing it with E-Bikes all the time, every day. Never have I heard of a friend or family member falling from their bike with any injury on the head; A broken arm at worst.
Small observation: Dutch bike culture is much more developed than here in the US. In addition to numerous separated bike lanes, and your pedestrians and drivers are much more familiar with how to handle traffic situations involving bicycles.
Injury from bicycle crashes is one thing, but the biggest threat to scooters and cyclists in the US comes from inattentive or aggressive drivers.
Injury from bicycle crashes is one thing, but the biggest threat to scooters and cyclists in the US comes from inattentive or aggressive drivers.
While I appreciate that the statistics over the value of bicycle helmets aren't always conclusive, "29km/h on a bike without a helmet is absolutely safe over here" seems like a difficult and sweeping statement to substantiate?
Are the pavements in Holland more forgiving when someone's head hits them at ~8 m/s?
"Never have I heard of a friend or family member falling from their bike with any injury on the head; A broken arm at worst."
Well, I see your anecdote and I raise you with my own: I once fell of my bike at probably around 30km/h, breaking my collarbone. Additionally my helmeted head hit the raised pavement stone hard enough to leave a big dent in my helmet. I'm very glad that it didn't have the opportunity to leave the same dent in my head.
Are the pavements in Holland more forgiving when someone's head hits them at ~8 m/s?
"Never have I heard of a friend or family member falling from their bike with any injury on the head; A broken arm at worst."
Well, I see your anecdote and I raise you with my own: I once fell of my bike at probably around 30km/h, breaking my collarbone. Additionally my helmeted head hit the raised pavement stone hard enough to leave a big dent in my helmet. I'm very glad that it didn't have the opportunity to leave the same dent in my head.
Helmets do seem to be at least somewhat of a cultural thing. I recently returned from a trip to both Amsterdam and Copenhagen.
Essentially no one who isn't a young child wears a helmet in Amsterdam. (And often not even them. You see small kids propped up on handlebars all the time.)
In Central Copenhagen on the other hand, which would seem to have almost as good biking infrastructure as Amsterdam, a lot of people do wear helmets. It's still the minority--maybe 25%--but it's definitely not at all unusual.
Essentially no one who isn't a young child wears a helmet in Amsterdam. (And often not even them. You see small kids propped up on handlebars all the time.)
In Central Copenhagen on the other hand, which would seem to have almost as good biking infrastructure as Amsterdam, a lot of people do wear helmets. It's still the minority--maybe 25%--but it's definitely not at all unusual.
That's because the Netherlands had real biking infrastructure. In the US everything is design expecting people will take a car to travel any distance more than one block, especially in the suburbs where you even might find yourself without a sidewalk at times.
I had a friend that made an ebike capable of 65 mph.
I’ve driven high-and-low all kinds of vehicles, big to small fast slow etc. I will say by far one of the most fun driving experiences you can have is a small <50cc moped in the city.
Stuck in traffic? Get off and push it along the sidewalk. Park ANYWHERE. Swerve and weave. So much fun.
Stuck in traffic? Get off and push it along the sidewalk. Park ANYWHERE. Swerve and weave. So much fun.
Glanced at a TV the other day, and found a program showing off a large sized electric "kickbike". It had the tires of a bicycle, but was operated like one of these scooters. Even seemed to use much the same drive train etc of an electric bicycle.
Basically an adult version of a coaster bike?
I guess it simplifies the design by not having the pedals, chain, gears, etc...; but you have the tradeoff of not getting that 100W of input from the rider to extend the battery range.
I guess it simplifies the design by not having the pedals, chain, gears, etc...; but you have the tradeoff of not getting that 100W of input from the rider to extend the battery range.
Wow, ads are getting smarter
Are Atlantic readers so self conscious about this stuff? I can't imagine being so unsure of myself that a mere electric scooter would be a major hit to my ego.
I'm trying to find info on which cities have Bird, but can't find anything. Can anyone help?
For some reason they're listed on this page:
https://www.chargers.bird.co/join
https://www.chargers.bird.co/join
In much of the world, a scooter means a lighter moped and not those things people ride in US
Riding a bike in the US (cities) is a good way to die. It's silly dangerous.
I think the beauty of scooters is because you don't have to find parking.
Wait, why aren't people stealing these things?
> First, I was more likely to respect traffic laws on a scooter than on a bike, because I wasn’t as worried about conserving my momentum on a scooter.
This jab at cyclists should be properly taken as representing solely the author's attitude in the role of cyclist.
A scooter rider who is late would have motivation to break the rules.
All wheeled vehicles, regardless of whether they are motorized, as well as pedestrians, break the rules from time to time.
This jab at cyclists should be properly taken as representing solely the author's attitude in the role of cyclist.
A scooter rider who is late would have motivation to break the rules.
All wheeled vehicles, regardless of whether they are motorized, as well as pedestrians, break the rules from time to time.
Right. I tend to treat stop signs and red lights as yield signs (especially in low traffic conditions) when on foot or bike. I'm sure I'd do the same on scooter. Late or not.
It's a shame no startup can disrupt the outdated tech that is traffic lights, which require people to stop, press a button and wait a minute in an intersection with no traffic going the way they're about to cross.
It's a shame no startup can disrupt the outdated tech that is traffic lights, which require people to stop, press a button and wait a minute in an intersection with no traffic going the way they're about to cross.
> It's a shame no startup can disrupt the outdated tech that is traffic lights, which require people to stop, press a button and wait a minute in an intersection with no traffic going the way they're about to cross.
This technology already exists, city planners are the ones not rolling it out.
Many intersections in Vancouver, and its suburbs are pedestrian-controlled. If you push the crossing button, and there is no traffic, the light will immediately turn red, and let you cross.
This technology already exists, city planners are the ones not rolling it out.
Many intersections in Vancouver, and its suburbs are pedestrian-controlled. If you push the crossing button, and there is no traffic, the light will immediately turn red, and let you cross.
>traffic lights, which require people to stop, press a button and wait a minute in an intersection with no traffic
You apparently don't live in an eastern US city like Boston or NY where people pretty routinely cross against the light if no one is coming (or even if they are) :-)
You apparently don't live in an eastern US city like Boston or NY where people pretty routinely cross against the light if no one is coming (or even if they are) :-)
> I tend to treat stop signs and red lights as yield signs
Actually sensible, and legal in Idaho:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop
Actually sensible, and legal in Idaho:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop
> Unfortunately
maybe i didn't read carefully, but i didn't catch in the article what he proposes is unfortunate about it.
> can they succeed despite their essential dorkiness?
wait ... what?!?
a) dorkiness
b) essential dorkiness?
wow. just wow. it doesn't seem like a clickbait-y sensationalist subtitle. it seems like the author really means it. omg, am i a dork?? i love these scooters. it never occurred to me in the slightest that they are dorky. and in fact, i see all kinds of beautiful people (and normal people) riding them. is this maybe an east coast / west coast thing? Maybe the author cares about presenting a certain adult image, and the scooter makes him feel childish, since yes, they are fun to ride. That's what makes me think it's coastal.
I love how the photo shows folks riding without helmets. AFAIK all the scooter companies make clear you must use a helmet (I don't). At least in the photo they are in the bike lane and not the sidewalk.
> Doesn’t riding in the bike lane annoy cyclists? Yes, of course. Cyclists are annoyed by most stimuli.
lol
maybe i didn't read carefully, but i didn't catch in the article what he proposes is unfortunate about it.
> can they succeed despite their essential dorkiness?
wait ... what?!?
a) dorkiness
b) essential dorkiness?
wow. just wow. it doesn't seem like a clickbait-y sensationalist subtitle. it seems like the author really means it. omg, am i a dork?? i love these scooters. it never occurred to me in the slightest that they are dorky. and in fact, i see all kinds of beautiful people (and normal people) riding them. is this maybe an east coast / west coast thing? Maybe the author cares about presenting a certain adult image, and the scooter makes him feel childish, since yes, they are fun to ride. That's what makes me think it's coastal.
I love how the photo shows folks riding without helmets. AFAIK all the scooter companies make clear you must use a helmet (I don't). At least in the photo they are in the bike lane and not the sidewalk.
> Doesn’t riding in the bike lane annoy cyclists? Yes, of course. Cyclists are annoyed by most stimuli.
lol
> is this maybe an east coast / west coast thing?
It might be a little bit east coast / west coast and a little bit of a DC thing. People in DC seem to take themselves a bit too seriously, so looking silly during your commute, where you might be seen by coworkers, is maybe more undesirable here than elsewhere.
This isn't a dig against DC. I live here and love it. I also enjoy the scooters.
It might be a little bit east coast / west coast and a little bit of a DC thing. People in DC seem to take themselves a bit too seriously, so looking silly during your commute, where you might be seen by coworkers, is maybe more undesirable here than elsewhere.
This isn't a dig against DC. I live here and love it. I also enjoy the scooters.
You're posting on hackernews with the dubious username 'jiveturkey' -- yes you are a dork.
Razer scooters were extremely dorky when I was younger (and still are). Why not shred with a skateboard, BMX bike, or even rollerblades?
These electric commuter things are pretty cool though from getting to point A-Point B efficiently. (Moreso than the electric skateboards cropping up)
These electric commuter things are pretty cool though from getting to point A-Point B efficiently. (Moreso than the electric skateboards cropping up)
Annoying you (and appealing to those who agree with them) is the author's intent. You are thinking about the article, maybe you'll even share it. The only thing that matters is grabbing your attention, and potentially the attention of people you know.
You might be overthinking this. I think it's just supposed to be funny. The whole article has an over the top snide style that is probably equal parts serious and jokey.
> am i a dork??
The first step is acceptance.
The first step is acceptance.
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tl;dr: An inconsiderate jerk gets addicted to electric scooters.
> terrorizing its wretched NIMBYs
C'mon with that.
> I pushed down the throttle and lurched forward. I released it and the scooter stopped, nearly throwing me off. As I tried to figure out my balance, a teenager ran up to the scooter next to mine, activated it, and drove away. I had never felt so old.
This is a young person's service. No helmets or elbow pads.
> It’s best ridden with one leg on the platform and the other hanging off the side for emergency braking, or fleeing.
So it's dangerous.
> I was more likely to respect traffic laws on a scooter than on a bike, because I wasn’t as worried about conserving my momentum on a scooter.
Author is an admitted scofflaw.
Folks, momentum is the killer. It's velocity squared, so half as fast is one quarter as much "oompf" to cause injury or death. I bike (I don't own a car) and it always cheeses me off to see cyclists pulling dumb stunts in traffic.
These eletric scooters are mostly a great idea. It's that margin of failure modes that we have to watch. People being people there are going to be riders who ride like idiots and crash into people, there are going to be people who park them in stupid places. There are already "turf wars" starting among the folks who collect and charge them at night.
This article is a puff piece.
> terrorizing its wretched NIMBYs
C'mon with that.
> I pushed down the throttle and lurched forward. I released it and the scooter stopped, nearly throwing me off. As I tried to figure out my balance, a teenager ran up to the scooter next to mine, activated it, and drove away. I had never felt so old.
This is a young person's service. No helmets or elbow pads.
> It’s best ridden with one leg on the platform and the other hanging off the side for emergency braking, or fleeing.
So it's dangerous.
> I was more likely to respect traffic laws on a scooter than on a bike, because I wasn’t as worried about conserving my momentum on a scooter.
Author is an admitted scofflaw.
Folks, momentum is the killer. It's velocity squared, so half as fast is one quarter as much "oompf" to cause injury or death. I bike (I don't own a car) and it always cheeses me off to see cyclists pulling dumb stunts in traffic.
These eletric scooters are mostly a great idea. It's that margin of failure modes that we have to watch. People being people there are going to be riders who ride like idiots and crash into people, there are going to be people who park them in stupid places. There are already "turf wars" starting among the folks who collect and charge them at night.
This article is a puff piece.
Fun read.
I personally feel like the dork-factor on a Segway comes from it being ridden with both feet facing forward. It gives the ride an alien-like hovering quality.
On the other hand, I don’t judge people on skateboards, particularly because I’m used to the sideways stance. Scooters are somewhere in the middle, but at the very least they don’t make you look like someone from outer space.
I personally feel like the dork-factor on a Segway comes from it being ridden with both feet facing forward. It gives the ride an alien-like hovering quality.
On the other hand, I don’t judge people on skateboards, particularly because I’m used to the sideways stance. Scooters are somewhere in the middle, but at the very least they don’t make you look like someone from outer space.
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I commute 9 miles one way into SF by electric bike, and while I love my commute my quality of life would be so much higher if I didn't have to worry about merging with car traffic at several points on the route, or (much worse) cars randomly swerving out of traffic into the bike lane and stopping right in front of me to drop off a passenger or whatever.